Stories of leadership told by the leaders of character who lived them. This is how the Air Force Academy experience shaped their past, present and future. Presented by the Association of Graduates and Air Force Academy Foundation.
U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
A devastating injury nearly ended her dreams of becoming a pilot. SUMMARY Lt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay '98, Ph.D., says the accident was merely the first chapter in a career defined by perseverance, service and leadership. Listen to this inspiring story on Long Blue Leadership. SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK | LINKEDIN DR. MACAULAY'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS 1. Choose your hard: You don't escape difficulty in life or leadership, you intentionally pick the hard path that aligns with who you want to become. 2. Let vision — not other people's verdicts — define you by holding a clear internal picture of your future that outvotes external “no's.” 3. Train your mind to eliminate the noise — unhelpful thoughts, doubts and narratives — to stay focused on what truly serves your goals. 4. Aim to harmonize your roles (leader, parent, partner, professional) across seasons of life rather than chasing a perfect work-life balance. 5. Be the calm in the storm by regulating your own stress response so your presence stabilizes your team instead of amplifying chaos. 6. Stop glorifying exhaustion and competitive stress and instead model healthy, high performance built on sleep, focus and quality over quantity. 7. Use simple daily mental skills — like mindfulness reps, the waterfall technique and a mindful minute at transitions — to protect clarity and compassion. 8. Replace “How are you doing?” with “What's going well for you today?” to surface real insight, build hope and better detect those sliding toward hopelessness. 9. Practice present, personalized recognition, because small, intentional gestures of appreciation can forge lifelong trust and loyalty. 10. When you hit a crucible moment and feel unsure you're ready, choose to commit and let the challenge grow you rather than hesitate. CHAPTERS 00:00:00 – Introduction, Jannell's Academy injury, broken femur, and redefining “no” as possibility 00:05:54 – Her father's influence, early visions of command and flight, and limitless expectations 00:09:26 – “Choose your hard,” setting vision, eliminating noise, and turning barriers into options 00:12:22 – Air Force career breadth, strategy path, and introduction to the Syria chemical weapons mission 00:16:31 – Saying yes to Syria as a mother, family conversations, and the weight of the mission 00:19:00 – Syria as a crucible moment, inner critic vs external “no,” and committing through discomfort 00:22:17 – Identity beyond the uniform, family strain, rare eye disease, and pivot to mental performance work 00:27:06 – What stress really is, burnout, competitive stress culture, and leaders as calm vs storm 00:36:35 – Mindful leadership in action: no-email Fridays, recognition calls, and the “waterfall” technique 00:52:16 – “Breathless,” stories of Syrian mothers, legacy, and final advice to young leaders ABOUT DR. MACAULAY BIO Lt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay, Ph.D. '98, is a combat veteran who served 20 years in the U.S. Air Force, as a pilot, commander, special operations consultant, international diplomat and professionalism instructor. With her innovative leadership style, she was the first leader to introduce mindfulness as a proactive performance strategy within the United States military. Throughout her career she gained experience leading and building teams, designing and implementing complex organizational change, and creating innovative solutions to optimize the human weapon system when operating in rugged and high-stress environments. With over 3,000 flying hours in the C-21, C-130 and KC-10, and extensive education in performance and wellness, she specializes in high-performance under stress with a holistic approach. Dr. MacAulay currently serves as a leadership and human performance consultant for the Department of War, government sector and corporate America. She is the co-founder of Warrior's Edge, a high-performance mindset training program she developed with Pete Carroll of the Seattle Seahawks and high-performance sports psychologist, Dr. Michael Gervais. Dr. MacAulay is a graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy, has a master's degree in kinesiology from Pennsylvania State University, and a Ph.D. with work in the field of strategic health and human performance. She is a certified wellness educator, yoga instructor and holds a certificate in plant-based nutrition. Dr. MacAulay is a TEDx speaker, military spouse and mother of two. CONNECT WITH JANNELL LINKEDIN | WEBSITE CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE AT USAFA.ORG/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP AND ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT Guest, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Jannell MacAulay, Ph.D. '98 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 Leadership begins the moment someone tells you what you can't do, and you decide they don't get to write the rest of your story. Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. Long Blue Leadership starts now. Well, Dr. Janelle McCauley, Class of '98 welcome to Long Blue Leadership. This is an amazing time for us. Excited to have you. Lt. Col. Jannell MacAulay 0:19 Thank you so much for having me. I know this has been a long time coming, so I'm excited to be here with you to start a conversation. Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:24 Absolutely, you know, I do want to highlight some of the things you've done. It's probably true that the list is shorter for me to say what you haven't done, but pilot, combat veteran, you're a leadership strategist, you're a mother, a wife, author — we'll talk about that later. You know, also really getting into the space of a human performance specialist, a commander, all of these things that you've done and, gosh, 20 years in the Air Force, and now having been out, so excited to talk today. Lt. Col. Jannell MacAulay 0:51 Thank you so much for that amazing introduction. I don't know if I could live up to even what you just said, in some ways. But yeah, I just would love to share with your listeners how amazing the Air Force Academy can be for the potential and the possibilities for someone's future. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:07 Absolutely, so let's actually jump into a time early in your cadet days, so we'll tie it right to the Air Force Academy. There was a moment in time where you literally broke your femur. I'm curious, did it break your dreams too, of being a cadet at the time? Col. Jannell MacAulay 1:21 It almost did. And there's a story to that, so I'll go into that a little bit. So, during basic training, I developed a stress fracture. You know, running in combat boots, especially the old black version that we used to run in. Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:35 Yes, I remember. Col. Jannell MacAulay 1:36 Not a good thing for your body. And so I had developed this pain in my right quad to the point where I could not even stand on my right leg to put my left pant leg on, during, you know, as you're rushing to — banging on the doors, we'll be dressed, like, “Open the doors, you will be dressed,” yeah, and I would be, you know, Welcome to the Jungleplaying — Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:55 I remember that. Col. Jannell MacAulay 1:56 I'm putting up my pants and I'm in pain, and my roommate's like, “What is happening?” Like, “You need to go to the doctor,” and I refused to, at first, of course, right? Push through it, right? And then when I finally went, they were like, “Here's the Ace bandage and some vitamin M, you know, Motrin. And, of course, I didn't know anything different, so I kept going. And then it was three days after basic training had finished, and I was at cheerleading practice, and I was doing a back flip, and my femur, like, literally snapped in half. It sounded like a tree branch. It was — I just collapsed to the floor, and this was before we had cell phones, right? So, if you can imagine, I'm 17 years old, so I hadn't turned 18 yet, and so they couldn't give me any pain medication, you know. The emergency — the ambulances rushing into the emergency room at the Academy hospital, which was not equipped to deal with what just happened to me. So, they sent me up to the Army hospital in Denver at the time, was Fitzsimmons. They couldn't understand why a 17-year-old's femur would just snap, and no one wanted to really address the fact that maybe it was a stress fracture at the time, so they actually told me I had cancer. So, they did — a bone type, a bone type of cancer, and so they did a biopsy on the bone. I lived in traction for 10 days while all my classmates were continuing on with their freshman year. So I was about — they eventually determined that this was not cancer, this was actually stress fracture, and so the two choices they gave me was a cast from my hip to my toe for about six months, or they were going to put a rod and four screws. So a rod the length of my femur, two screws of screws on my knee, two screws in my hip. And then the doctor said, “Either way, you're never flying airplanes,” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:36 And that was your dream? Col. Jannell MacAulay 3:38 That was my dream. Yes, my uncle had flown Marine 1 for President Reagan, so I grew up watching him fly helicopters in the Marine Corps, fly the President, and just he was the coolest person ever, and I wanted to be just like him. He took me to the air shows, so yes, it was a crushing moment. You know, it was something where I thought I could either let what people were telling me, the doctor saying, “You're never gonna bend your leg like this, you're never gonna be a runner, you're never gonna be a pilot,” and I could let that define me, or I could choose to define myself and what I was going to be capable of, and what the possibilities would be for me in the future. And so it was very hard for 17-, 18-year-olds to process all of this, but my dad used to give, tell me a quote, and it was, “Vision is the art of seeing the invisible,” and he would always tell me, “If you could see it for yourself, you can make it happen,” and so when it came time for being pilot qualified, I actually chose to get all of the metal removed out of my leg, just so that there was no reason for them to not allow me to go to pilot training. And so I went through that, which was — Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:49 Another surgery, wow. Col. Jannell MacAulay 4:50 Yes. So through all of that, I have learned that was the first experience where I learned a lot about myself and what I was, what I could focus on, how I could set a vision for myself in the future, and how I could start to eliminate the noise — that's what I call it now. I didn't have language for it at the time, but it's eliminate the noise that does not serve us in pursuit of our passions, in pursuit of our dreams. And that was what I had started to do, which it's kind of full circle that that is now my career, to help other people do it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:26 I want to peel that back a little bit. There's so many things. I mean, your dad's quote: “Vision is when you can see the invisible. I think I paraphrased that a bit. One more time. Col. Jannell MacAulay 5:33 It's actually a Jonathan Swift quote, and that “vision is the art of seeing the invisible.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:39 OK, so were you always that way growing up because you had, you know, your dad in your life sharing that kind of thought with you, or has it been a series of experiences that you've had that have kind of really made you that way? Col. Jannell MacAulay 5:54 So, my dad has always been a very positive role model in the sense of eliminating barriers and dreaming big. So, when I was 7 years old, and I was a ballerina, he used to tell anyone that — and I distinctly remember this as a little girl — he would tell anyone that would listen that I was going to grow up to be a submarine warfare commander or a combat pilot. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:16 Oh, wow, not a swan, no ballerina, you know — Col. Jannell MacAulay 6:18 And I would literally be in my tutu, and he would tell strangers at the grocery store, right, “This is my daughter, Jannell, she's gonna grow up and do these amazing things.” And in the '80s, women couldn't do it, right? We weren't there yet, right? We were not allowed to — and so I didn't know that. I didn't grow up thinking that there were barriers on what I could become, and I think that's a, we have this role as parents to help our children see what's possible, because you know they can either be told where the limits are or they could be told where the possibilities exist, and I think my dad did a lot of that for me, and so that I think is a lot of my story is, like, journeying through challenge and trauma to figure out that I didn't have to listen to that voice. I could create a new one, and my dad taught me how to do that, and then I've kind of developed, what I think, are skills and training, because it's hard. It is very hard to do, and so I like that's been what my Ph.D. work and my research has been focused on, is how can I help other people who don't have maybe that those resources or their parents in their life that have taught them those things. How can I give them those tools? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:27 So you were a cadet when you made the decision that you still wanted to be a pilot, and you didn't want there to be anything that said you couldn't, so you made the decision to have the metal removed from your body. As we think about decisions that we have to make in life, that could be dream-opening decisions or dream-closing decisions. How did you come to that decision? And you know what would you share to someone who's at a similar crossroads in their life? Like, how do you navigate? That's a tough decision you made. Col. Jannell MacAulay 7:54 It was a huge decision. I think part of it is understanding what are you passionate about? Who do you want to become? And not just about what you want to do, what type of person you are. That's a lot of what I think mental skills work is as well, is like, who's the person underneath, because once you figure that out, then the doing follows, right? Like, you could do anything, and I was the type of person underneath it all that did not like to be told no, right? Or I loved it when someone would say, “You can't do that,” right? It's like the challenge is what inspires me and motivates me, and so when they were saying you will not be a pilot, it was like, OK, well, then how do I get to yes? And part of that path was I had to have the metal removed. Now, there were some arguments, like, “Maybe you'll be fine.” I don't want to take the risk, right? I was like, “Nope, I don't want to give anyone an excuse to take something away from me.” That was kind of the mindset at the time. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:00 So, I think that really dives into this idea of, you can, when you said yourself: The no in front of you is kind of like, “How do I turn that into a yes?” You know, clear out the noise. How did that play into your life as an Air Force officer? Because I'm sure that you came across a lot of what we're seemingly no's. What did that look like? Col. Jannell MacAulay 9:22 So, here's, but, and this goes back to the Academy as well. I tell young people today, my greatest gift is to tell them, “Choose your hard.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:34 Choose your hard. Col. Jannell MacAulay 9:35 Choose your hard, right. Anytime I'm asked to speak to a college, you know, high school audience, like, I do mental skills, but a lot of times the theme is “choose your hard,” because I think people are — young people are always in pursuit of the easy button, and then when they encounter hard, like, “Oh, there's got to be a better way.” The lesson is, it's all hard, right? It's all hard. So, determine what you want to do, or who you want to be more, and how you're going to get there, set the vision, and then navigate through the hard. And I would argue you need to equip yourself with the mental skills to do that, and in pursuit of that, there is going to be no right, there are going to be challenges, and part of it is accepting the challenges instead of being afraid of them, because it is through those challenges that we're actually going to accomplish great things, and we're going to get to reach our dreams and our goals. And I think that that is something I struggled with, but I found a way and a path through it. So, I think that there's always going to be no in your life, and I like to create opportunities, so then I have, I get the choice instead of just having to default to someone else telling me no, like even when I left the Academy, I applied for pilot training for grad school, for physical therapy school. Because I wanted to have opportunities, so then I got to choose which path I wanted in the future, which hard I was going to choose for myself in that moment. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:03 I just — I'm thinking about you, went into the Air Force as a pilot, and you talk about choosing your hard, and you also are a mother. Let's talk about that piece. I think just navigating the and in being a mother and a leader and an Air Force officer and a combat veteran, a pilot, etc. I mean, that's a lot. Col. Jannell MacAulay 11:23 It is a lot, but I think underneath it all, the person that I am is one who not balances my life but harmonizes it and all the roles that I get to play. I think that's the greatest thing about the Air Force. You list all those things that I've done. I was watching the cadets yesterday, I was one of them, with just a bright future and so much possibility. And under one organization, I got to fly multiple airplanes, I got to go back to school numerous times, study a lot of interesting topics, from my degree in exercise physiology, from Penn State to my Ph.D. in strategy. So I got to study all these different things. I got to work in chemical weapons, which I know we're going to talk about later. I got to fly around the world, I got to lead people all under one team, right, one organization, and that is the greatest thing I think the Air Force can give people if they take those opportunities that are in front of them. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:23 Yes. Well, let's, let's jump into a time — you actually brought up Syria. And so let's go there, because I think I would like to hear more about the story, and how it kind of unfolded around the chemical weapons there. Col. Jannell MacAulay 12:36 So, I got sent to — it's post… So I went to the School of Advanced Air and Space Studies — SAASS time, and my husband and I were actually the first married couple to go through SAASS together. And stayed married at the end. There was one other married concept that it were exactly that. There was one other married couple with us at the time, which is really unique, but I took — you know, through SAASS, you get a strategy focus, and you have to go do a strategy job somewhere for your staff to work. OK, and so my husband really wanted to go work at the Pentagon, so he was on the joint staff working on the Israel-Palestine desk for the chairman, and I was like, “What else can I do in DC to keep my family together, that would be interesting?” And there was this job at this little organization called the Defense Threat Reduction Agency, and DTRA, as they're known, is the brain trust for everything weapons of mass destruction, so chemical, biological, nuclear weapons, planning, research, execution of mission, that is all run out of DTRA, and so I was like, “That sounds interesting, I've never done anything in any of this space, but it'll be an easy job,” is what I thought, because I was about to have my second baby, and every time I call them, no one ever answered, like, past 3 o'clock so I'm like, “Great job.” Exactly. Like, I got my staff tour done, and I get to do something new. But I was a fish out of water, you know, like former pilots, like going into this situation, the WMDs. They gave me that job also, because no one wanted it, it was almost asking people who are experienced in the world of chemical weapons to do an impossible task, right, to handle an impossible problem. And so, at the time, nobody really wanted to put their name to it, because there was a no-win. We don't have diplomatic relations with Syria, like this — a bad civil war was happening there with an evil dictator, right? Like, how were we going to solve that problem without any type of relations? And then, you know their proxy of Russia, right? So then it's like we don't even have — we didn't have the greatest relations with them. So when August of 2013 occurred, and Assad used chemical weapons against a civilian population, 1,400 people died almost instantaneously from sarin gas. Sarin gas is one of the most awful chemicals, immediately, right? It's like paralysis. It makes your eyes water, like you become — it's a horrific way to die. And when that happened, my life changed, because all of a sudden it was like, “Oh my gosh, this is real. And, “Who's been studying this problem?” And at the time, it was you and your team. And so we kind of got thrust — I got — I went to London almost immediately to start briefing our international partners on what we had been building and studying, and luckily we had been, for the better part of six months, working on this problem. And then shortly after that, I went to the Hague, because Syria did turn over their chemical weapons to the international community, and there's a whole story behind that. Obviously, we got the Russians to help with that. And then I got sent to the Hague to work at the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons — the OPCW is who has all the inspectors and the teams who helped destroy and inspect the status of these chemical weapons — and so I got sent there to work with them and negotiate directly with the Syrians and the Russians to build the plan. And I remember my boss was like, “You have to go, and I don't know when you're coming back, we need someone over there to be running point on this mission,” and yeah, he sent me, and he said I didn't have to go writing my little kids, Andrew just turned 1, but he said, you know, “We need you, and this is what I picked you for, this mission, and this is what it's for.” So, yeah. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:31 Wow, what did you — what went through your mind when you were asked to go, and you had the opportunity to make that decision? What do you mind besides the fact that you have young children? Col. Jannell MacAulay 16:44 Well, of course, like, I think, like most mothers, you never are like, “I still want to leave my kids,” right? I want to go, but I knew it was the right thing to do, because I had the ability to make an impact and a difference, because I knew the mission inside and out. I was the right person at the right time, and I was ready. I distinctly remember I went home to talk to my children. Well, Ally, she was 6 at the time, and I remember talking to her, and I said, 'Mommy has to go away to handle this mission. And what I'm going to do while I'm away is there's some really bad stuff that some really bad people have, and I'm going to work to take that stuff away from them, so that they cannot hurt anyone anymore, and she looks up, and she's, you know, crying. We're both crying, and she said, “Mommy, like a superhero?” And, I just, like, kind of nodded, and she's like, “You can go, Mommy,” like, “You can go.” And it was in that moment that I realized, like, that's why we do these jobs. It was to protect her, to model to her that, like, I can be a mom, I can be a strong mom, and I can also go do things in the service of my country and the service of my nation and it was important for me to go, and then — so that was a driving force, like knowing that my family was going to be OK and supportive, but the other driving force was thinking about the mothers in Syria who lost their children, and thinking, here I was holding mine and they will never get to hold their children anymore. I mean, hundreds of children died and were put in mass graves after this, and mothers didn't get to say goodbye, mothers didn't get to hold their children, and they suffered immensely in those moments. And so I kept thinking about the Syrian mothers, and how if I could do anything to help prevent something like that from happening again, then I had to go, right, I had to do that for them. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:44 Would you say that that mission, or that part, that time in your career, was something that was so impactful in your life it changed you, or it maybe shifted your focus on things you were going to do later, or was it just at that time, this is where I need to be doing and making an impact? Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:01 There's a whole story behind it, where we were dismissed, and we came up with the innovative idea of how to solve this problem by destroying these chemical weapons on a boat, ship — sorry, Navy — on a ship in the middle of the Mediterranean. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:12 Was that because you were told it couldn't be done that way? Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:14 Yeah, exactly. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:15 Oh, interesting. Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:17 We had to actually start a whisper campaign within the Pentagon, and the State Department and the National Security Council to get our idea heard. And eventually, it was. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:28 So I'd like to take a little bit of time in that space of when you recognize that need to keep pushing for, right, the choosing your hard. How do you navigate that? What would you recommend to somebody who has been no, no, no, no, no, no, no. How do you work your way through that? Col. Jannell MacAulay 19:45 Well, I would first ask, where is the no coming from? Because if the no is coming from your inner critic, right, I know how to get rid of that and eliminate that, and that is actually what most people — like, that is what prevents most people from doing great things. I like to say that we all have these crucible moments in our life, a moment where we're asked to do something that we really don't think we could do, right? Like, we're kind of like, “Oh my God, deep down you're like, “Oh, I don't think I'm gonna do this. Can I do this?” And in that moment, we have the opportunity to either hesitate or commit. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:24 Was Syria your yes? Col. Jannell MacAulay 20:26 It was very much a crucible moment. You could either hesitate and say, “Oh no, I can't do this, it's too big for me,” like, “I can't take this responsibility,” or “I can't make this decision,” or “I can't believe in my idea,” because the voice in your head says so. But sometimes it could even be real people telling you and dismissing you and saying, like, “You can't do this.” So, “Where does the no come from?” is always the first question. And if it's an internal no, you can train your mind to eliminate that noise. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:54 Yes. OK, I like that, because then you — it opened up your eyes to the possibilities of who you might connect with that can then help navigate through some of that challenge. Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:03 And here's the reason why we, as humans, love this: What happens when you step into discomfort, right? You're at that moment, that crucible moment, and then you decide to commit, and you step into discomfort, and you navigate through it, and you get to the other side. How does that feel? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:18 Amazing. Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:18 Right? You throw your arms up in the air: “I'm a badass! Look at what I just did.” And even you're like, I didn't think I could do that, and I did it. That is what we live for as humans. I don't think people realize that, right? Like, we want those moments, but we don't want the discomfort that comes in getting them. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:35 We want to be at the other end, right? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:37 We just want to be at the other end of that, because we love that moment where you throw — so you're not gonna throw your hands up if you're like, “Oh yeah, that was so easy.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:43 That's a good point. Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:44 Right. You wouldn't be like, “I feel so good about it.” I'll come— Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:45 We wouldn't share with people if everybody could do it. Col. Jannell MacAulay 21:47 Right? Exactly, so we do love those moments as humans, and I think that is part of what — I teach people how to not be afraid of discomfort, to get more opportunity and more times, more reps of those throw your hands up in the air and be a badass. Right? Like, and that's really what I think it's about, is being ready for that moment, and the more often you're ready for that moment, the more often you step into discomfort, the more throw your hands up in the moments you get.. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:18 So, if humans are chasing that, and that feeling of, like, you know, commit, raise your hand, get through it, and you know, kind of bask in like that, that moment, because you loved it so much. There's probably a desire to seek more of those opportunities. How did you navigate your career after that? I know you served 20 years. Was there a point where you're like, “It's time for me to move into this space,” or did you just happen to really decide to commit to this new world of mental performance and toughness? Col. Jannell MacAulay 22:49 So, I, like, most military members, I went through a phase where I got really caught up in my identity as an Air Force officer, Air Force pilot, and it can be scary to leave that identity with the one you've always known, the one that you've been comfortable with, and even though I'm successful in — and even though I do enjoy challenge and discomfort, it was scary, right? It is scary, and I think that, well, first, part of my story was, I don't know that I was necessarily completely ready to leave, but the Air Force was making it really difficult for my family. My husband and I, he was a maintenance officer, pilot, you would think maintenance and pilot, very like cohesive, compatible. We would be able to be stationed together. We spent six years apart, and two of the last three that I was in the Air Force, we did not live together. OK, and that was hard. Our kids are getting older, and I distinctly remember I was in New Jersey, commanding a squadron. My husband was in New Mexico, commanding a group. Note to the Air Force: New Mexico and New Jersey are only close in the alphabet, right? These are not close locations, not at all. And full disclosure, I had the kids with me and an au pair, because I couldn't have done it otherwise. And I remember my husband flew home, you know? He thought he would get in at like 2 a.m. on Friday night and have sleep for 10 a.m. on Sunday morning, right? Get back. I remember we woke up our son, he was four at the time, and he looks up and he goes, “Mom, Dad, you're together,” and I was like, “No, this is not OK.” Like I don't want my children to just wake up or just be grateful when their parents are in the same room, like, that's not what I want for their childhood experience. And so I actually gave up my command six months early, and that was one of the hardest things I've ever done, because I loved being a commander, but I was at a point in my life where I realized my squadron will get another commander who cares so much about them, just like I do, but my kids only have like one mom, yeah, and they had one dad, and they needed us together. And so that was a hard decision, but it did set me like on a trajectory to think about retirement, to think about, you know, what I could do on the outside, and actually it was like divine intervention, I actually lost my pilot qualification. I have a rare eye disease, and so I've gone very blind to my central vision, like 80% blind to my right eye. So I was going to get my pilot qualification taken from me, and so I think that was God's way of saying, “It's time, this is not your path anymore. You have a different gift,” right? Flying was a great gift, leading in the Air Force was a great gift. “There's a different path for you.” And so that's when I retired, and then kind of realized there were so many people that wanted to hear this information. There were so many people that were struggling with this idea of “How do I perform? How do I manage stress? How do I get those badass, like, throw my hands up in air moments?” And I started by working with high-performing teams, the military, first responders, hospital workers, you know. Then COVID hit, and I realized everybody, everybody needs it, stress, like psychological disorders, like they're on the rise, anxiety, and if I knew how to help people, why would I keep that to myself, right? Like, it's just became something I'd be passionate about. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:29 Goodness, that's probably something that people don't know just by looking at you, that you actually have an eye disease that you battle through, and I'm curious on when you started into this work, like you said, COVID hit, and you realize everybody needed this. It almost is a bit of, maybe reinvention is not the right word, but you literally change your trajectory completely, even though you had all that schooling. So, my question is, how did you actually, how do you determine who you work with, because the land is so vast of who needs it, you know? I mean, how do you actually do that? Col. Jannell MacAulay 27:06 There's only one of me. It has been hard. My tribe is always the military, and even though I do spend a lot of time in the private sector working with, you know, companies from Amazon, NBC Universal, like, hotel chains, different industries — which I love — anytime a military commander reaches out and says, “We need help,” whether it's burnout, whether it's just not optimizing performance, whether it's stress-management, because if you look at the majority of DOCS today, people are burnout and stressed out, and— Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:47 Oh, the organizational climate service. Col. Jannell MacAulay 27:49 Yes, yes, the climate service. And so most of the time, how do you, how do you manage that as a commander? Because, and here's the thing about stress and burnout: Stress is a perceived emotion. People don't think about it, but the actual what stress is, is your perception as to whether you have the mental resources to meet the demands of a given moment. So, your brain, when you're faced with a stressor, something comes at you, and it's a stimulant, right? And your environment, whether it was like a contentious conversation, traffic, it was like a big decision, like flying a plane in combat, right, whatever that is coming at you, your brain does a like split-second calculation as to whether you have the mental resources to meet the demands of that moment, and if your brain says, “Oh hell no,” it becomes overwhelming, it becomes stress, it be it sends you into this like spiral of like anxiety, which is like — what anxiety actually is, it's your mind's creation of what you think is going to happen in the future. It actually hasn't happened to you. Anxiety is a complete creation of the mind, right? It is. Our minds are fantastic at mental time travel. They will take us in catastrophizing about the future. I like to tell people, the majority of the catastrophes you will experience in your lifetime, they will only happen inside your head, right? They will feel very real, because our minds are fantastic at this time travel. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:11 Then it turns physical. Col. Jannell MacAulay 29:12 Yes, then it becomes like part of our physiology. So that's what this is, what leads to chronic stress. It leads to preventive illness that sets in, because we live our lives in this chronic state of stress, and stress again is a perception. So you could also be stimulated by that stressor, and instead of getting overwhelmed, you could say, “Bring it on.” Like, this is a challenge and I've got the resources to meet this moment. It's a choice. Again, I get people, “It's not as simple as that.” It is as simple as that, but it's hard in practice, and most of that is because we have spent 20, 30, 40 years training and wiring our brains for one direction, which is to strat for stress and survival, right. And so when I do ask people to flip it, you can't just flip it over, but these are not soft skills. This is why what I teach is very hard, because you're rewiring your brain. The good news is it's called neuroplasticity. We can rewire our brains, but it does take work and deliberate commitment, and that's why, you know, I see this all the time with spouses. They're like, “I don't see what is the big deal. My wife is freaking out,” or vice versa, like in a cockpit. Like, I'm calm, and I'm like, “Why is my co-pilot freaking out?” It's that perception, and how our brain deals stressors. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:27 So, we have a lot of listeners that are leading people. How do you navigate their ability to help others through that, or is it really more dependent on the individual themselves? Like, do you need the individual to do with the work with you, or can you work with the leader and help them navigate that with their folks? Col. Jannell MacAulay 30:46 You can absolutely work with the leader, and as a leader, you can role model the behaviors. So, there's some real science behind this. For example, how often is a leader creating a storm instead of being the calm in the storm, right? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:02 More often than people realize. Col. Jannell MacAulay 31:03 Right, it really is, and it's almost one of those things where later can be the calm in the storm, right? But when they're not, they embody the stress that then pervades through the organization, right? Like they create that culture, and so if you have a boss that comes in every day stressed out, you have a boss that's not sleeping. I absolutely, this is what drives you crazy about leaders in the Air Force, who will say things like, “I only sleep three, four hours a night,” and like, you are bragging your suboptimal, right, from someone who studies performance and psychology, and like, you are literally telling people, “I am not ready to make decisions on your behalf or be your leader today.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:42 I like how you said that: “You are bragging your suboptimal.” That is right, there, those words, that's fantastic. Col. Jannell MacAuley 31:48 Right, but we — it's part of our culture, right, to even kind of be like proud of it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:51 How much did I actually, you know, keep myself up to get more done? Col. Jannell MacAulay 31:55 Yes, yes. And so here's another example. I'll tell a quick story. I was a commander, sat down Monday morning meeting with my peers, and one guy says, “Oh, I worked all day Sunday on performance reports, like, I have a sick kid at home, so I only got like two hours of sleep, like barely had time to grab coffee, you know, but I'm here to be a badass.” And then the next guy goes, “Well, let me tell you something. I worked Saturday and Sunday on all my performance reports, and, oh, by the way, two sick kids at home, so I didn't sleep last night.” Wow, you know, “I didn't have time to grab coffee, but like, I'm here to be a badass.” And then they turned to me, like, expecting me to one up them on my stress. It's a culture of competitive stress that we live in. And instead, I said, “Well, my husband doesn't live with me. I had to get all my work done last week, so I can spend the weekend with my kids,” but mind you, I had the OSS, the flying squadron, so I had triple the size squadron, “but I got all my work done last week because I was more focused in my work. Then I hung out with my kids, everyone slept great, like no one's sick, we're all good. I've got my yummy green smoothie to start the day,” and instead of anyone at that table saying, “Oh my gosh, how do you do that?” The sentiment was, “Well, she's obviously not working hard now.” That's our culture, like our culture is one of, if you're not stressed, if you're not showing how busy you are, you're not valued, and actually that is not the path to performance. The path to performance is quality over quantity, it's sleeping, it's demonstrating to stay calm, it's making good decisions, it's, you know, so we as leaders can either set that tone that we're in this competitive stress, which then makes our captains not want to be us, like that's a huge problem, right? But if you're the type of leader who stays calm, if you're the type of leader that they see, “Oh, they go home every night on time, they do spend — they do leave early sometimes to go to their kids' soccer game.” That could, should be OK, but it never — I never didn't perform my job right, I was still working hard and doing the things I needed to do every day, I just was more efficient. Here's the stat: We mind-wander half our waking moments. Do you know what that means? Like, we've all read a page in the book, back to the bottom. Yep, don't know what I read. Drove in your car someplace, don't know how I got there. Yep, Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:06 Yep, autopilot Col. Jannell MacAulay 34:06 That's when you have an off-task thought, your brain, your attention system goes off task during an ongoing task or activity. I'm telling my brain to pay attention to driving or reading, it goes elsewhere. It's unintentional, and when our brain does that. t mind-wanders towards stressors, worries, catastrophes, Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:41 To-do lists. Col. Jannell MacAulay 34:22 To-do lists, exactly. All of those horrible things that then make you more angry and distraught and unhappy, right? So, what if we could get control of that, stop spending so much time in that distraction and be more focused? Well, you do that by not having your phone all the time, you do that by looking at people and actually listening, because this is where leadership comes in. If we're having a conversation and I'm telling you something important, you're my, you're my commander, and I look at you and I'm like, “She's looking at me but not listening.” You can feel that as you can see. And so leaders can be mindful and focused and pay attention. It doesn't take that much, but it takes awareness. That's really what we're training when we train our minds. We are training our awareness. I'm not saying that I am perfect at being focused, I am not perfect at staying calm. The difference is, is when I start to get out of control, I recognize it quickly, and I redirect. When I notice myself not paying attention to our conversation, I redirect very quickly. That's the skill, and that's what we're not teaching enough leaders, I don't think. We're getting there, because I think leaders can set the talent, leaders can set the example, and when I was a commander, I collected data, and we found that, you know, 60, over 60% of the leaders I was interacting with on a daily basis changing their life based on the things I was teaching them, based on the way I was modeling behaviors, and then a greater squadron, it was like 35% and that's — I didn't even teach them anything, I just demonstrated an example. So imagine once you start teaching people how much more those stats will grow and how people's lives will change. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:04 Right. well, one of my favorite stories, I think, that you know, and I'm thinking about our leaders that are listening in here as they, as they think about how they can be better leaders. One of the stories you shared previously was actually recognizing someone by calling someone important in their life to share their good news, and it took like two minutes. I think what a wonderful lesson, like being a great leader and championing someone does not have to take a long time, but the impact lasts — could be forever. Do you mind sharing that story? Because I just think that's such a wonderful one. Col. Jannell MacAulay 36:35 I love that story. So, I had an airman who got below-the-zone senior airman, and I used to do a thing where, you know, whether it was a coin or whether it was an award or whether it was just a job all done, and we wanted to celebrate someone in the squadron, you know, you could send someone an email. I hate email, which I did — also as a commander, No- Email Friday. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:56 Really?! Col. Jannell MacAulay 36:56 Did not check my emails on Fridays because I wanted one day where I wasn't chained to my desk, like I was like, in fact, you know how my wing commander found out I was doing No-email Friday? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:06 Because they emailed and you didn't email back? Col. Jannell MacAulay 37:08 He got my out-of-office response. Welcome to No-email Friday. “I'm not checking my email today. If you really need to get a hold of me, call me. There's my phone number.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:15 I love that. Col. Jannell MacAulay 37:16 So I did that to ensure that I could spend more time with, like, how do you lead people if you don't know them? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:23 Right, you can't. Col. Jannell MacAulay 37:24 And if you're sitting behind your desk or you're checking emails, like, you can't know people. So I would spend Friday down and about, and we used to do this thing where I would call someone special first for someone, if maybe they had a big event or whatever we were celebrating. So one day, this gentleman got below the zone, and I asked him to pull out his phone, because I used to call people, and people don't answer strange numbers anymore. So that stopped working. I was like, “You pick — pull out your phone, let's call someone special that you pick, and because everyone's gonna answer their kids, right? And I actually talked to, like, spouses, parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, like brothers, sisters of people, yeah, over the course of my commands, and I asked him to pull out his phone, called his dad. I got to brag on him a little bit, saying, like, “Hey, this is what your son is doing,” and most of the time kids don't even tell their parents what they're doing in the Air Force, so it was an opportunity for that. At the end of the conversation, I remember it just like it was yesterday. The dad said, “I'm so proud of you, I love you, son.” And I looked up, and my airman just had tears streaming down his face, and I was getting choked up, and my airman said, my dad has never said that to me before. So we're busy as leaders, like we are, go, go, go, we are in a competitive stress environment, whether we want to be or not, and I'm just asking leaders to pause, right, and it doesn't have to take a lot of time, right, just pause. Those types of interactions you have with an airman, the next time you need them to work late, the next time you need them to take the hill, the next time you need them to go deploy, or whatever it is, you've built a level of trust that only happens when you're paying attention, and that's what the future fight is about. The future fight is about connecting as human beings and focusing when we're doing those hard and challenging things, and the way we do both of those is by training our attention system. You know, we have to pay attention to each other, and we have to pay attention to our job, so that we can be high performing when it's hard. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:25 This has been excellent. I didn't — wow. Got me… Tears. Eyes are sweating here in the studio. No, this is wonderful. I'm curious, with all the work that you do in helping others, what is something you're doing every day to stay sharp yourself in this space to be better as a leader, what's something you do? Col. Jannell MacAulay 39:46 I am really big on continuously challenging myself, like I always want to have a goal or something hard in my future, like I think that that, especially as we get older, I think it's really important. And so, on a personal front, I just signed up to run 50 miles. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:04 Oh my goodness. Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:04 I got five friends to do it with me, so I'm like excited. Yeah, it's not all in one day, it's like you run a 5k, 10k, half-marathon, marathon over the course of four days. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:14 And so the longest race at the end. Wow. Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:16 At the end. Yes, that's why it's a big challenge. And so that's my next one. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:22 When is that? Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:23 That is in January. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:24 Oh my goodness, so yeah. Col. Jannell MacAulay 40:25 Just about. And again, for someone who was told you will never be a runner, I think that's also why I want to do it, you know, just to prove to myself that I can, so that's kind of a personal challenge, but on the leadership front, you know, I challenge myself every day. Writing a book was scary, right? You know, when I go and work with each team, whether it's someone in the, you know, like a company or whether it's a military unit, I try to take my time to like customize exactly what they need. It's not just going to be like cookie cutter for everyone, and so that's like my continuous challenge is, can I go into an environment and lead and instruct and educate and train in a way that's meaningful to that group, and that's, you know, what I would, I do for my job, but most importantly, I love this sentiment that you can be everything to someone or you can be someone to everyone. Sometimes in my job I get on a stage, I talk to thousands of people, and I'm someone to a lot of people, right? I can give them a little piece of what I teach, but I also have two young people in my life, my children, that my role to be everything to them is also very important, and so I try to harmonize that the best I can, because it's easy. They get caught up in, like, I'm just gonna go out there and keep sharing this message and forget that there's people closest to me. You know, leadership is about influence, right? Your 3-foot circle, which one of my classmates at the academy, Ronnie Buller, taught me, right? Your 3-foot circle is who you interact with, whether it's your family, your team, your neighbors, your community, and so you have the ability to continuously lead, and that's I want to continuously lead by example and teach people that we need to train their minds. It's not a whoo whoo thing, it's a hard thing that requires deliberate and consistent practice, and it will pay dividends if you give it the focus and time it deserves. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:28 I appreciate that you use the word that you like to harmonize things in your life versus balance. I think that's a very distinct difference. It's really impressive. If you could go back in time and talk to Janelle, young Janelle, or maybe it's even just talking to your daughter once you're young girl. What advice would you give her in the space of leadership? Col. Jannell MacAulay 42:48 Well, I would say to choose your hard, and I wish somebody would have imparted that a little bit more on me. I had that sentiment, and I had a lot of grit, and I had a lot of determination, and that's why I did accomplish a lot when I was younger, but it was more difficult than it needed to be. I'm not here to say, like, it makes it easy, it can be easier when correspondingly, like, you're, you're, you have great, you have determination, you're repetitively challenging yourself, that builds mental strength. But if I had known that I could also train my mind in a deliberate way, in parallel, just to make it a little bit easier, and to also find the joy in the journey. There's a picture of me when I got back from a KC-10 deployment, and I'm holding my daughter. She was 15 months, so it was like the first time I had deployed when she was young, and that was a hard deployment. And I remember, like, I look at that picture, and I can see in my face and in my eyes, that I was always already worried about the next thing. Like, instead of being joyful that I was holding my daughter, I was like, in this great moment— Col. Naviere Walkewicz 44:04 That's what I was expecting you to actually explain, that's crazy. Col. Jannell MacAulay 44:07 I wasn't there, like, my mind was already like, “OK, gotta go again,” like, “When's the next thing?” like, “When is was my next three-week trip that I have to leave her, when is the next thing that I'm gonna miss in her life?” And, you know, we spend a lot of time living our lives, stressful moments, a stressful moment to stressful moment, and I wish that I could have learned earlier to embrace the moments in between, to see them, right? I mind-wandered through many of them, I was just worried, I was catastrophizing. I mean, how many of us spend time in the military? As soon as you get to your first, your next assignment, you're already worried about what your next one is, right? You're like, OK, what do I need to do? Like, like, yes. And you're for me as a joint-spouse couple, there was no protections for us back then. Like, I love that they're finally gone, and I better know, yes, right? I'm so grateful for that, because we did not have those protections. It was like, here's where he's going, here's where you're going, and unless you had a commander or a leader that cared enough to make a phone call, you're going separate ways. And so I wish that somebody would have told me then to stop worrying so much about the next thing and just live more in the moment, I would have saved myself a lot of extra stress, a lot of extra angst, and I would have had more joy. And so that's really what I want for this generation, and that's why I work so hard, and I'm so passionate about this, is because if I could do it again, that's what I would want to remember. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:31 So, with so many listening and watching, this is your opportunity to be, you know, something for many. What is the thing that they might do? A small thing they could do, just in their lives, to be a little bit better in their mental space and their mental capacity or performance. Col. Jannell MacAulay 45:48 Gosh, I have, like, an 8-hour course. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:51 I know. That's why I was like, “Here's a nugget everybody, pay attention.” Col. Jannell MacAulay 45:56 OK, I'm going to give you — can I give you three? Which ones to pick? The first one is to start practicing mindfulness, to start doing mental pushups. You cannot layer in productive thinking, you cannot pivot your mind unless you eliminate the noise. Like, that's the first thing you have to do. You have to be able to see the thoughts inside your head and make a conscious choice not to follow them. Because a lot of them are not providing value to you, right? And the skill set that does that is mental pushups, is mindfulness, and it's this idea of the definition of mindfulness is being in the present moment without any emotional reactivity or judgment. Like, just be here now without judgment, that's what it means. And it's a deliberate practice of continuously being here now without judgment, so that when you are in a moment with lots of judgment, you can filter right, and especially that's where greatness comes from. It's not because of a great moment, it's because of what you do in the moments you're given. Second thing is, for leaders, stop asking people, “How are you doing?” I want them to rephrase that question and ask, “What's going well for you today?” And the reason we do that is for those two reasons: The first one is when you ask someone how they're doing, you're gonna get — most people are just gonna give you like, “Busy,” right? “Good,” “Fine,” “Liiving the dream,” whatever, right? But did I, as a leader, get any information from you when you say any of those in response? No. And then what we do as leaders? We get, “How are you doing?” “How are you doing?” “How are you doing?” And then we— Col. Naviere Walkewicz 47:36 Check the box, check the box, check the box. Col. Jannell MacAulay 47:37 Yes. And if you happen to have someone who's like, "Oh my gosh, let me tell you,” you're almost like, “Oh my God, good for you.” I didn't mean for you guys to tell me, because that's our cluster again, right? So I want leaders to start asking people what's going well for you, and that does two things. Now I'm going to get information from you based on your answer, and that information is also going to start training your mind and your psychological framework toward optimism and hope, because do you know the biggest problem for leaders today? I think is missing the hopeless people. We think that there's this binary of optimism and pessimism, and so the optimistic people, we can find them easy, and the pessimistic people, we can find them easy too, right? They're usually, I'm usually focused on the pessimism, because they're noisy and they're loud and they're annoying and they're bothering us and they're bothering the whole unit, right? And sometimes we're like, “Oh my gosh, Bob is so negative and angry,” like, “We should worry about Bob.” But the thing is, is that actually Bob's not your worry, because people who are pessimistic understand they're on a sliding scale. A pessimist thinks that there's a genuine belief that things could get worse, but if you believe things can get worse, you know they can also get better, right? Which is what optimism is. I genuinely believe things will get better. So, a pessimist — it's not binary. I want people at leaders to open up the aperture. There's optimism, pessimism, and then there's hopelessness and hope. That's the second thing. And then the last thing is leaders suffer from what I call compassion fatigue. OK, it's a very real thing. How many of us spend all day at work — it's kind of a combination of decision fatigue and compassion fat. You spend all day at work making decisions for other people, you make, you spend all day at work taking other people's problems, and if you're an empathetic person, like you take it on, right? You're like, “Oh my god, feel so bad, like airmen that are struggling with all these things.” Then you go home and someone at home says, “What's for dinner,” and you flip out about what's for dinner, right? And it's like, oh my gosh, where did that come from? Like, I didn't mean to snap, or someone in your — it's very important to you, and your whole life comes to you and needs you, needs your attention, and you're like, I have no more attention to give you, I have no more compassion to offer, because I am done, like I am burnt, so it's a very real thing, and it's not an excuse, I might have given people a label for what's happening, like it's this thing— Col. Naviere Walkewicz 49:57 I have compassion fatigue. Col. Jannell MacAulay 49:59 Which is very true, and it's a very real thing, and I'm not giving you an excuse, I'm telling you, you need to fix it, and here's how you need to every time, like the whole time you're at work during the day, you need to shed all the mental distress that happens. You need to shed the empathy, right? Your empathetic, the empathy that you use when you're in an interaction with someone builds like extra stress into your. It's actually in your like body, yes? Right? Like, exactly. you take on those physical, and it becomes a physical manifestation. You need to shed that. So, what I have is called a waterfall technique. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 50:36 Waterfall? Col. Jannell MacAulay 50:38 So when you're, yeah, yep, so when you're engaging with people, remember we don't want to be distracted and not paying attention. So, put your phone away once you invite someone in your office. I don't have it. It distracts you by 20% if you have it on your body or in your view, right? Just have it put away. So now you're more attentive. Then I'm going to listen to you when you tell me whatever's going on in your life, and I'm going to envision we're at the top of the waterfall. Visualization is very powerful for our minds, so we're going to visualize that waterfall, and I'm talking to you, we're having a conversation, I'm fully present. You might have some stuff going on in your life, like I might have to take a note, I might be OK, follow up, I might give you some mentorship, but when we're done, your problems go down the waterfall, right? Like, we want to feel, “Oh, I'm their commander.” No, it's still not your problem, right? The problem goes down the waterfall, so then the next person can come in. Now you're at the top of the waterfall again. I'm fully present with my next person that's coming in. I'm paying attention, I'm not thinking about the other conversation. Then when we're done, your problems get to go down the waterfall. It will protect your energy, it will protect your compassion, and so that when you go home, it'll just offer, you know. And then the other technique is before you walk in the door, do a mindful, mindful minute. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 51:48 Mindful minute right there. Col. Jannell MacAulay 51:49 Right. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 51:49 Well, I'm glad you shared three, because I think you know, I think that's what it's about when you're on your leadership journey, and I think leadership is a lifelong journey, and I think anything we can do better, not only to help others but to help ourselves as well, is really important. So, thank you for sharing that. Well, I want, before we close, I want to go into this moment, because you said yourself is a little bit vulnerable, you've written a book. Let's talk about Breathless, and this journey you've now undertaken. Col. Jannell MacAulay 52:17 So, Breathless is the story of mothers, and it's my story. And one of the women that worked on my Syria team with me, she was an Army officer, and we were both mothers of very young children at the time, and we also have two mothers in Syria that are sharing their stories with us, and they lost their children in a chemical attack. And so it's a story of mothers persevering through unimaginable odds, us working breathlessly to solve this problem, and basically having kind of this weight of the world on us to come up with a solution that would work and solve the problem, and then these mothers living in this horrible genocide, right, in this horrible time of a civil war, and under a ruthless dictator, and so they, the only reason why we're able to share their stories is because Assad, right, the liberation happened. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 53:16 I was like, I was going to say they're actually featured in your book. Gotcha. Col. Jannell MacAulay 53:20 Yes, and we originally started writing this book without their stories, and then once Assad fell, like we reached out and we got two mothers to share their story, and one of the mothers, her children were just slightly older than my children, and she lost both of them. The other mother lost her daughter, and her daughter was in prison during the Arab Spring. Her son traded out with her daughter because she was afraid of the conditions and what was going to happen to her daughter in prison. So the brother traded out with his sister, and the mother didn't find out until — her name is Amsaeed — she did not find out that her son Saeed had died, executed with 25 other prisoners before Assad left the country, so she didn't find that out till after liberation, so she lost a son, she lost a daughter, this other mother had two children taken from her, and so the story is about both of our struggles. Sarin literally takes her breath away, and we were working breathlessly, you know, to help them, and just the story of what it means to be a mother, like what a mother's love, what a mother's heart will do. And I just talked to Amsaeed last week, we coordinated a Zoom together, and I got to hear her story firsthand. She got to meet me and understand my story, and it was very evident to me that she said something that was very pertinent. She , “The world has a short memory, and people have probably already forgotten about Syria,” right? Like, oh yeah, something with chemical weapons, bad dictator, like it's another part of the world. And so part of writing this book also is to keep her story alive, to not let the awful things that happened to these women, I mean, to the whole community of Syrians, right, civilians, but especially the mothers who had to not even get to bury their children, and to help their stories surviv
SUMMARY In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, U.S. Air Force Academy boxing coach Lt. Col. (Ret.) Mark Clifford '97 shares how the sport shaped his approach to leadership, service and mentoring the next generation of cadets. A strong conversation on resilience and growth. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK COACH CLIFFORD'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS Leadership is about others, not you. Elevate the people around you—when your team wins, you win. Iron sharpens iron. Seek (and create) hard reps, tougher opponents, and uncomfortable situations to build real capability. Look for “dogs,” not resumes. Prioritize competitiveness, resilience, and willingness to get hit and keep going over pedigree. Turn on the hot water. Know when it's time to flip the switch from relaxed and joking to locked-in, all-business execution. Take the punch, then execute. Composure after getting hit—physically or metaphorically—is the true test of a leader. Accountability and care must coexist. You can deeply care for people and still enforce standards, discipline, and consequences. Bloom where you're planted. Be the best where you are before chasing the next opportunity; stop leading with the exit plan. Don't lead only with rank. Some of the strongest leaders on his team lead through work ethic, example, and quiet influence. Use mentors; don't go it alone. Pick up the phone, ask for help, and learn from those who've led through similar moments. Family and support systems are force multipliers. A stable, supportive home front enables you to show up fully for the mission. CHAPTERS 00:00:00 – Intro: “Sometimes leadership means the mission stopped being about you” + Mark's accolades 00:01:40 – From hoops to the ring: leaving basketball, discovering boxing, and Coach Weichers' influence 00:03:55 – Finding “dogs”: how Mark recruits scrappy, resilient cadets and builds national champions 00:07:57 – Growing up competitive: family, academics-first father and rivalry with his brother 00:11:09 – Leadership from the ring: iron sharpening iron and elevating everyone on the team 00:14:30 – Warrior mindset: teaching cadets to take a punch, stay composed and execute a plan 00:19:00 – Riding the emotional highs and lows: coaching, winning, losing and not burning out 00:21:08 – Accountability with heart: tough call in Korea, stripes, and good order and discipline 00:24:36 – Competing together: peer squadron commanders, shared struggle and mutual support 00:28:05 – When you want to quit: advice Col. Clifford got, what he tells cadets now and “bloom where you're planted” 00:32:16 – Quiet leaders and culture: cadets who lead through work ethic and example 00:37:23 – Daily leadership reps: mental prep, PE classes, influence in the athletic department 00:43:11 – Talk to young Col. Clifford: trust the process, shake off negativity and the power of family support ABOUT BIO Lt. Col. (Ret.) Mark Clifford, a 1997 graduate of the United States Air Force Academy and former National Collegiate Boxing Association champion, is in his second season as head coach of the Air Force boxing program after leading the women's team to its first NCBA national title in his debut season, highlighted by a program-record four individual champions and a sweep of the men's and women's NCBA Western Regional titles. A former team captain and three-time NCBA All-American as a cadet, Col. Clifford also served two stints as an assistant coach, contributing to four national team championships and 21 individual national champions. He retired from the Air Force as a lieutenant colonel after 20 years of service, including assignments as director of fuel operations for Air Force One, commander roles in Hawaii and South Korea, combat tours supporting Operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom, and work on the Joint Staff at the Pentagon. Following his military career, Col. Clifford held leadership positions at Grand Canyon University and the DREAM Foundation, focusing on sports management education and mentorship opportunities for students. He earned a master's degree from the University of Maryland Global Campus and a doctorate from the University of New Mexico. CONNECT WITH MARK LINKEDIN | FALCON ATHLETICS CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE AT USAFA.ORG/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP AND ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS: Guest, Coach Mark Clifford '97 | Host, Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz '99 Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 Sometimes leadership means realizing the mission stopped being about you a long time ago. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. Long Blue Leadership starts now. Mark Clifford, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Col. Mark Clifford 0:14 Thanks for having me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:15 Absolutely, you know, we could jump right in, but before I do, I have to just talk about this. I had to write this down to make sure I didn't miss it. Boxing team captain, obviously; three-time Wing Open champ; three-time regional champ, three-time National Collegiate Boxing Association All-American, and the national champion of the NCBA your senior year. Col. Mark Clifford 0:33 Yes, ma'am. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:34 I mean, that's just, and that's just as a cadet. Then you went on to serve 20 years in the Air Force as a logistics readiness officer, you know, you're commanding and you're leading squadrons. In addition to that, on the higher education side, assistant dean at Grand Canyon University in sports business. Col. Mark Clifford 0:49 Yes, yeah, ran the sport management program when I first got there, probably a year after I got there, just to get my feet wet with higher ed, and then was elevated to the assistant dean of the College of Business. And so it was, it was fun, it was amazing, it was very different from what you're used to in the military, because I tried to come in with a little bit of military mindset, but it's a civilian institution, so you know, just a little bit different, just bringing myself there and seeing what happened. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:13 Well, you know, I guess what it shows is that you're not afraid to jump in and do, you know, something new. And I think that's — we'll probably discover that in the conversation today. So, maybe where we can start is the fact that you are back at USAFA as the boxing coach. You're here now running and leading the program that shaped you. Col. Mark Clifford 1:31 Yes. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:32 Let's talk about that. Col. Mark Clifford 1:33 Yes, let's talk about — I mean, I love the program. You know, I came into the Academy, went to the Prep School, on a five-year plan, like some of us that need a little extra help, little extra year, you know. I took my time and really understand that came in, I'm such a competitor. I was playing basketball at the Prep School, came in my freshman year, hoping to be on the basketball team, worked really hard, did all things the coaches asked me to do, still sat the bench, and so, like a lot of cadets, like every cadet, even our women now have to take boxing class, you know, as a mandatory class. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:04 When did that start? What year? Do you remember? Col. Mark Clifford 2:07 I want to say 2017 is when the women started. It's always been instituted for our men. So my freshman year I did really well in the class, to the point where I had to box our assistant coach at the time, Ray Carter, for my GR, my test. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:22 Did you get an A? Col. Mark Clifford 2:23 I got an A. But it hurt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:26 For him? Col. Mark Clifford 2:27 Heck no! He was the one punching me. He busted me up pretty good, but I still got the A in the class, and coaches — the same system I use today — is trying to find cadets in boxing class that are competitors that are looking to do more than just be either a cadet or on the team that they're on or ride a bench. I got tired of riding the bench behind a couple of folks until sophomore year, coach came and said, “Hey, you still interested in boxing?” I quit basketball, went to boxing and the rest is history. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:58 You didn't look back at all. Col. Mark Clifford 2:59 No, you know it's hard to look back because it's shaped — I think we all kind of think back to our cadet years. I know I do sometimes, and kind of reminisce about, “What if?” I remember walking across the street one time, and my brother was ahead of me in '90s — Class of '96 — on the football team, and I was walking across the street as a freshman to basketball practice and ran across Coach Fisher DeBerry. “Hey, Clifford, will you come play football with me?” And so, you always think about opportunities that kind of cross your path, and I think about what would have happened if I would have done something different. I don't know if this story would be as successful as it is, based off of what I've learned in boxing and where I am today. And so, I'm very thankful for the program. I'm thankful for Coach Eddie Weichers, who shaped me, was a father figure for us when we were here. And you know, it's tough being a cadet, so you got to have allies and friends and people and mentors, and he was definitely one for me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:55 Well, I'd love to know, you know — he saw you in class and discovered that talent. How are you finding potential nowadays in the cadets for the program? Because you just happened to have the women who defended a national champion, won it. So, two years now have been the NCBA national champs. Col. Mark Clifford 4:15 I think it's a couple of things I look for. One is, how scrappy are you? I think it was easy at Grand Canyon University to find, you know, the era of COVID, and the resiliency wasn't quite the same as what I remembered when I was here as assistant coach, and as a captain and as a major, as well. The cadets are different, the mentality is different, and so kind of make it simple, I'm looking for dogs, I'm looking for cadets that a) are excited to fight, are not afraid to box, aren't afraid to get hit, love the intensity of the sport, and I can shape that, and you know, the potential piece of that is, can they throw a pretty good punch, and can they take a punch, and they're not, you know, they're not jumping out of the ring with that. That kind of translates into what we're looking for with all of our officers and all officer candidates, is making sure that they can stay there and take a punch, collect themselves, and then go back and execute, right? And so that's what I'm looking for, and I've tried to find those in classes, and you know, a lot of times it's a lot of the athletes. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:21 Right. Col. Mark Clifford 5:22 Because they're recruited here for other reasons, well, and other… Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:24 Other sports. Col. Mark Clifford 5:25 Other sports, or whatever, and they want to be competitive, and as a freshman and a sophomore. It's tough, because you got juniors and seniors who have experience on the team. They're out there performing, and you're sitting on the bench, well, you know, I get you in the sport where you don't have to sit the bench. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:43 That's right. Col. Mark Clifford 5:44 It's top person wins. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:45 So when I think about the team that you formulate and you grow, and they continue to hone in our craft, is it always the athletes that you kind of, that maybe have been benchwarmers, or have you found the diamonds in the rough that maybe have never fought in their lives, and never — that kind of surprise you, that have risen to the top? Col. Mark Clifford 6:04 You know, there are a lot of diamonds in the rough, there are a lot of, but back to what, there's a lot of cadets that come here that aren't necessarily on a divisional, we're lucky because we have 25% of our population at the Academy are divisional athletes. But there are so many other young cadets that are just as competitive, just as athletic, and looking for something else, and how do you give them something, right? And when they get to come to the Wing Open and see their classmates in the center of Clune Arena, and that thing is filled with all the rest of the Cadet Wing. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:37 Yes, and grads and the community. Col. Mark Clifford 6:39 And the community. They put the floor seats right there, you can sit ringside, it's an amazing thing. How do I be a part of it? And my philosophy is simple: If you enter the Wing Open and you win, then you're the person that represents this for regions and nationals. There's no favoritism, because I quote, unquote, recruited Naviere as a freshman. Now she's a senior, well, the senior gets her butt whooped, I'm taking a freshman. And so it's a very fair system, and so you find those diamonds in the rough. I'll give you one — two-time national champ. She's our team captain this year, Elise Bell. I don't think she's ever fought in her life. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:16 Wow. Col. Mark Clifford 7:16 When I walked in the gym last year, my first year, I just noticed her work ethic. How do you just pour into something like that and refine that in the gym to become a national champ. And last year — I just love to tell her story, because last year I believe in regionals and nationals, every first round she lost 5-0 to the judges. She was losing, and she won every bout. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:42 Interesting. Col. Mark Clifford 7:43 So it's just — you find those, and I'm hoping to find more of those cadets that just have that same energy, that resilience, that toughness and courage, really, and willingness to do what we ask you to do. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:58 So, were you like that growing up? Were you someone that had this mindset of, you know, a work ethic and, you know, scrappy, you know, before even getting into boxing? Were you like that as a kid? Col. Mark Clifford 8:09 I was just a competitor, and that's my father, that's my mother, that's my grandmother, my father's side, who was very — everything had to be put into place. My father was born in 1929 in Washington, D.C., went to Howard University, ROTC post-Tuskegee, and entered the Air Force through ROTC in 1949. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:41 Wow. Col. Mark Clifford 8:42 So his thing was academics, always. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:45 Yes. Col. Mark Clifford 8:45 But I had a brother who was a year ahead of me, and it was academics for both of us. But how do you best the guy that's right next to you? Like, it was always just — my brother's name is Larry. That's what Larry and I always did, whether it was girls or sports, school, right? Yeah, it was always Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:02 You drove each other. Col. Mark Clifford 9:03 We drove each other, and it's just — it was amazing. You don't realize that until you're older, and so you go, “Yeah, that's what that did.” And so I think I was always just, 1) I was always a competitor, like I wasn't always the best, but I'd like to try to strive to be, and so that was just kind of how I was shaped. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:22 So was your dad very excited when you — you were recruited to the Academy, is that correct? Col. Mark Clifford 9:28 My dad kind of wanted me to go — more so than maybe I wanted to go. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:34 When did you realize, like — because obviously you were on the five-year plan, right? So I think you had a couple of times to make a decision, like, “I'm good,” but you stayed. So when was it that it really connected with you that this is where I want to be, and I want to stay. Col. Mark Clifford 9:47 Probably after my sophomore year. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:50 OK. Col. Mark Clifford 9:50 Yeah, because my first three years, like, I wanted to play basketball so bad. I was trying to recruit myself. This is when you had to go send out your videotape. You know what I'm saying. You're there with me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:01 Yes, yes, paper. Email's not the thing back then. All paper. Col. Mark Clifford 10:05 All paper. I'm trying to send videotapes out. Spring break at the Prep School, I think I went to Cal Riverside and tried to meet with the coach and drop off my tape. That's how bad I wanted to play basketball, right, and then I found success in boxing, and it was, I think, why go anywhere else? You start to realize, you get over, like, you're gonna have a job when you graduate. I don't have to look for a job, I don't have to go out there and struggle. I'm gonna get what I want to do out of the military, and it's gonna be a five-year thing for me, and then I'm out, right? And so I think that's what it was. I think it was my sophomore year, and I was going, my grades are terrible. I could say that now. It was — but no one's ever asked me for my GPA. I still was able to get a doctorate. Like, there's things that happen in your life that you'll still be able to achieve success, even though you weren't as great at it before. And so, yeah, I think it was just the realization of, “I could do this.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:09 So in that journey of, you know, wanting to play basketball so bad, finding a space and a place that really you started to hone in on yourself in boxing, and then, you know, went into the Air Force, you were leading. What have you found out about yourself in a leadership perspective through those different situations, whether you ended up not playing basketball or something that went really well for you, like national champ? Col. Mark Clifford 11:35 I think just overall leadership was the ability for me to impact others to be successful, and I think that's what I took out of boxing, because it is an individual sport, but it's very team-oriented. We don't put banners on the wall that say “national champion” without a team mentality to make sure that our teammate, left and right of us, are also excelling. And so, in a small sport like boxing, at a time where I boxed, there was 12 weight classes, but you're boxing the guy above a weight and below a weight, because you're trying to make that person better, iron sharpens iron. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:10 Right. Col. Mark Clifford 12:10 I also had, I was a 172-, 175-pounder boxing the heavyweight, because in my mind was no one's gonna hit me as hard as this guy is gonna hit me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:19 That's right. Col. Mark Clifford 12:20 And so if I can stand and get and last with this guy, I can last with anybody in college boxing. And that flowed for me into the military of — and part of my philosophy was how do I elevate everybody else, because I realized here at the Academy it's not about us, right? We're in the people business to make sure people around us are elevated, have the things that they need, resources they need to make sure that they're doing the job the best of their ability. Because then the unit does better as a team. The wing does better as a team. It's not about us individually. And so I think for me being able to translate that out of boxing into my Air Force career was part of what shaped me as a leader to make myself successful. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:02 Did you find yourself seeing if anyone could take a punch from you in your Air Force uniform, or how did you do that? Col. Mark Clifford 13:10 Well, you know, I punch my words when I know you can't put your hands on people. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:16 Of course. Col. Mark Clifford 13:19 You know, back in the early days, you know, I think the chief excused me from a meeting, and the meeting was back behind the fuel watershed. I can't remember… Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:32 Fair enough. Col. Mark Clifford 13:33 Some wall-to-wall training that was going on with other individuals, but hey, chief said it was good. Roger that chief. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:40 That's hilarious. Col. Mark Clifford 13:41 Yeah, no, you know, you don't put your hands on people. I used to have to tell people, “Don't let my smile fool you,” you know. I like to have a good time, I enjoy myself, I enjoy the people that I'm around. Also, I know our job is very serious, and I was very serious about our job. And so, part of my leadership philosophy was always — my dad's thing was the Golden Rule, you know, treat people the way that you want to be treated. And I always — there's some things here at the Academy that I didn't love, so I took away from, “I'm not going to be that type of person,” into accountability, holding people accountable, myself included. And so even at the Academy, as a knucklehead cadet, I did goofy stuff. I'd be the first one to say, yeah, I take my lumps, march my tours, take my Form 10, do what you need to do, but just survive the place and learn from it, and it shapes you out as a leader. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:31 Absolutely. You know, I'm curious, because I think about — you just said, “I like to have fun,” and you know, “but don't let my smile fool you.” You know, when you think about boxing and the mentality you have to have to literally stand across from somebody and hit someone, or take a punch, or you know, be hit back. How do you train that kind of mindset? Because I have to think it parallels a lot with the fact that we are developing warfighters. You know, how do you train that? Col. Mark Clifford 14:57 Yeah, you know, that's kind of the bottom line of the boxing class. It's not about finding championship boxers. The boxing class is about exactly what you just outlined. It's how do you, as an individual, put a strategy and plan together knowing that you have an adversary across the ring that's going to hurt you. Like, the object of the game is to punch you. Pros is more so to hurt you. College boxing, amateurs, more to score more points than you. Bottom line, they'll hurt you, and that mentality of how do you compose yourself? Do the things that we asked you to do: a) defend yourself, b) have an offensive plan, even if you're losing, how do you compose yourself? Right, part of that warrior spirit is making sure that we always have that mindset of how we're going to achieve and beat our adversaries, and I think that's the bottom line of the boxing class. It's just, how do we do that? So, the mindset is exactly that, is you know you're gonna get punched, but can you punch that person when they punch you? Can you put some other things in place that I gave you tools — that I gave you, head movement, defensive movement — to take those punches away, right? From a strategic standpoint, and then be offensive, and then score your points. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:11 Right. Col. Mark Clifford 16:11 And so that's the mentality we try to have boxers to make sure that this is a sport where you're gonna get hit. Once you get past that hurdle, it's good, right? It's how you work on all these other skill sets that make you better than your opponent. And if the other person's just as skilled as you are, what's the edge that we get? And I think that's part of our mental preparation that we do as well as our physical preparation. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:34 So I think about you shaping that for the team, both the men and women. How was that shaped for you? Was that your coach at the time, Eddie Weichers? Was that Wiechers? Was that someone in your family? Who were those mentors in your life? Col. Mark Clifford 16:45 For me, it was Eddie Weichers and Ray Carter. Ray Carter was an enlisted assistant coach, and he was four-time, I think, All-Air Force heavyweight champ. Those two were instrumental for me, especially during my career times, before my time as a boxer, because I would work hard, work out a lot with Coach Carter, because the same mentality helped with a heavyweight. If this big joker can hit me, I can take the punch… He's also going to teach me some things. I mean, Coach Weichers was the same. It was the mental piece that his thing was knowing to turn on the hot water, and it was because I would have a good time, enjoy practice, have fun with the guys, but when you step in that ring, turn the hot water on, it's all about business. So, then, when you step out, turn it back on to cold, go back to goofing off and doing things that you do, but you get in there, it's all about business. And so, how do you train your mind to go, like, man, “I gotta go to war right now?” And it was, you know, I had a preparation before I got to the ring, and some things that I did that helped me mentally prepare before I jumped in there, but… Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:52 What did you do? Col. Mark Clifford 17:53 You know, again, it was the Walkman CD Walkman, the CD Walkman. And I couldn't jump around too much because it was Skip. Yeah, the CB was skip had the little baby headphones had my little do rag on and I would just zone out on some music, I would zone out on music until it was time for me to get up and do my physical warm up with some jumping some rope shadow boxing and maybe little hand mitts with the coach before I jumped in the ring, but OK, yeah, it was a, you know, I couldn't jump around too much. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:25 It would skip, that's true. Now they just have — they don't have to have anything connected, just put in their ears. Col. Mark Clifford 18:30 I'm jealous about it, to be honest. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:35 So I imagine when you're coaching, and I'm saying I imagine because I've not coached ever to this level. I coach my son's little league basketball team, but which is a whole different level of coaching, but what I find curious is, have you ever found yourself in the feeling of, because you know how it felt when you win, when you lose, and when you watch your cadets going through that, how does that affect you as a coach? Col. Mark Clifford 19:01 Yes, I'm learning to not, I'm learning to not ride the emotion like they do, but I definitely did my first year, I think, as an assistant coach. So, I was assistant coach with Coach Wishers five years total as active duty officer, and that was different because I was on the sideline, he was the main guy, I was a support guy, but when you're the head guy, you're the one that gives the kids advice, giving them the strategy, and then really I felt it at nationals, especially when we started to win in with our women, we our first female won in the first half of the day, a freshman, I don't know if she was expected to win. She didn't expect to win, but in our hearts, in our minds, we knew. And then this is the motion, because I know how hard they work and what it takes to get your hand raised, because I came up short my first two years when I'm the guy standing with my hands down, the other guy's hand is raised, and then getting my hand raised my senior year was the most amazing feeling. I rode that same emotion when we lost, when we won, and I was worn out and tired. So I'm trying to train myself not to try to ride that emotion, but it's hard, like you know. I want to be in there with them, and I feel the same things that they feel, because I went through that same process they went through. And so it's interesting dynamic because I'm trying to peel myself away from mine. I just haven't detached yet. I think I'm still emotionally and mentally driven by what happens with our cadets, and it's a weird feeling. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:36 I imagine as a leader that's probably a common challenge you have because you care so deeply about your team, like family, that you do get emotional, right, and that might even be one of the sharpest knives in your, in your kit. It's just, you know, how you employ it, I guess. Col. Mark Clifford 20:52 Yeah, you know, that reminds me of a really tough situation when I was a commander in Korea. Back to, had to hold somebody accountable with that person. Part of the discipline action was taking a strike, right, blah blah blah, the things that happened for something negative, right, but he's such a good person, and it was a first, first mistake, but it was a big one, and what that led to was a person dropping rank, but then hitting higher tenure, and couldn't test for the next strike, and so I really struggled with that, and had really tough conversations with not only the group chief, but my commander, right, and my chief, my first sergeant. Is this really the right thing for this individual? I think ultimately for good organ discipline. Yes, I think emotionally because it was a small unit. We were in Korea, his, he had his wife there, I had my family there, right? So they became friends, close, right, close enough, because such a small group, and that's the type of organization that I like to have, because I think if it's you, almost play that disappointment role or daddy role, or whatever, however you want to characterize it, that leadership style, but it was, man, you really got to depend on your brother or sister, you let that person down, and you let us all down. Yes, and so that's part of my leadership style, especially in Korea. I took over for a commander that was let go and fired, and so there was a whole cultural change I had to do, so that was when the “don't let the smile full you” happened, right? And you just had to make sure that you held people accountable. That was one of the tough ones where emotionally you're going, "Man, am I making the right call?” Organizationally, absolutely. Personally, for that individual, it was tough. It was tough. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:36 How did those moments stretch you as a leader? I find that fascinating, because you do. You have such a warm and, you know, fun personality about you. I mean, I think when you think about command and the decisions you've had to make at different times, both in the ring, out of the ring, in uniform, et cetera. How did you grow as a leader? Col. Mark Clifford 22:53 I think we all grow every day. I think, for me, I lean a lot on my mentors. I'm not afraid to ask for help, right? I learned that early in my career, that it took me a while, because I was in the way, but it took me a while to understand that I can pick up the phone and ask somebody for help, and they're going to help you, because, as an organization, our Air Force, our Space Force is all about making sure people are successful. We don't set people up for failure. Why? Because if one individual fails, yeah. So I think for me making those tough calls was was challenging, because because of my leadership style. I think it was, I want people to get along, I want our team to be meet the standard of excellence, if not exceeded. I want us to be always on that front edge, because I'm a competitor. Yes, I want to be the best, but also that comes with accountability and tough decisions. And I think when you have to be in the moment, make some of those tough decisions, that's you just have to go back and reflect. You have to lean on people that do the same thing. I had a great group of fellow squadron commanders at my first command in Hawaii, that's a really terrible basis to go to, that's why I stayed there for 20, that's why I stayed there for 20. The plan was five. Oh, yes, yeah, 20 happened because I had some great people around me, and I, and the bases weren't bad either, and so my family loved it, and we saw some rough assignments, but it ended up being great, but I can lean on my fellow squadron commanders if I had some enough time. But it was just a bitch session, or if it was a leadership lesson. Most of us were about the same year group, age group. I think one or two of the commanders was a year or two ahead of me, but it was just — we weren't competing with each other. We were making sure we were all competing together and being successful together. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:53 I think about that theme of being a competitor, and I remember you telling me about your brother and your dad. So, has there been a continued, you know, competition, and how you guys have done in your, in your careers and in life, or have you leaned back to your dad, like, “Hey, Dad, so how do you go about this?” Col. Mark Clifford 25:09 No, you know, we unfortunately lost my dad a couple years ago. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:13 Oh, I'm sorry. Col. Mark Clifford 25:13 No, it's OK; 94 years of an amazing life. I found some old pictures of him and Chappie James, which is pretty — talk about history and legacy. But no, I think my brother — I found out — so, my brother left after his sophomore year. He hadn't finished the Academy. He stuck around here another year, so my sophomore year, and I really came to find out, although we competed against each other our entire lives, he was my No. 1 fan, and I didn't even know it. It was like — he would tell me stories of, I think, my first Wing Open, maybe my second Wing Open — my first Wing Open sophomore year, that he, for the first time, said some cuss words next to my dad because they were in the stands, because he was cheering for me, and it was just funny to hear, like, we're grown-ups, but you can't cuss in front of my dad. You don't say those things. He was like, “Oh no, Dad's gonna get me.” But no, I think since then it's been a really supportive relationship, and like anything that I do, he'll call me as soon as we're competing anywhere as a coach now, ask how we did, how the cadets did, he said he's proud of me, I'm proud of him too, and he's doing real estate in Southern California with his wife and his family. So it was weird to see that, or hear that from him, because it was always like… Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:31 Yeah, you were always like mmmm mmmm. Looking over your shoulders. Col. Mark Clifford 26:35 Yeah, like who's going to get who? But it was awesome. It was kind of cool. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:38 I love that, and I'm just thinking, you know, I'm sorry to hear of your dad passing, but I'm sure throughout those years you had many calls to him about, you know, some of those decisions you had to make in uniform, and I'm sure he was extremely proud of you making it a career. Col. Mark Clifford 26:51 Yeah, yeah, I think he also was surprised I lasted as long as I did, just because I was so against it early on in my career. But no, I've been super proud, and it was always good to come home and just kind of share some stories with him, and he would reflect back on his stories, and he was a fighter pilot, and so just some of his fighter-pilot stories, and you know, the things that shaped me — talk about moments in your career and moments that shaped his career. It was just — it's just cool to have somebody like that in a different era that can share the different challenges, but also the same. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:31 That's a good point. Yeah. Col. Mark Clifford 27:32 I think that's what's interesting with the military, like, and coming back to the Academy is a perfect example. Like, there's challenges that we have, they're kind of the same that we've had, probably 15 years ago when I was here. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:45 Like a cycle. Col. Mark Clifford 27:46 It's a cycle. Yeah. So it's like now you have new leaders, how do they work through these different challenges differently than we did before? Not that we need to repeat history, but at the same time, you know what I'm saying, it just becomes a cyclical thing, that was how do we work. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:03 How do we navigate that? Yeah. Col. Mark Clifford 28:05 The same stuff, yeah. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:06 I want to go back to something you said, and I think it probably plays into some of the cadets that you work with, and or help to coach. You talked about how you weren't sure you wanted to go to the Academy, and staying, you know. The idea of quitting is where I'm really kind of going. What advice have you received to help you not quit, or to kind of push through when you wanted to quit? And have you seen that with cadets, and how are you navigating that? Col. Mark Clifford 28:29 Yes, and yes. I think the best advice I received when I was thinking about quitting was, “Just really ask yourself why, what's the purpose, and then where you're going to go, like what's the plan?” And that's what was one of my dad's themes was, especially when I got out, was looking to navigate civilian jobs, right, but you don't leave something unless you got something else in your other hand. And so I was like, “How do you really focus in on being the best at where you're at, right, before you even think about stepping somewhere else?” And I had to reflect on that, especially as a cadet, was I really being the best at where I was as a freshman? Sophomore, I could tell you no, because I wanted so many other things, and it wasn't had anything to do with the Academy, had nothing to do with the Academy, but you know… Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:21 You were focused on basketball… Col. Mark Clifford 29:23 Focused on other things until I could really be the best at all the things, and it's a balance here at the Academy — academically, militarily, athletically. I wanted to be the best athletically. How do I go win a national championship as the boxer? And so I found out that you've got to prioritize, which is… Right? We all had to do that. We all have to do that in our lives today. And so my priority was boxing, because I wanted to be great at athletics; academics, because I knew I can't get out of this place unless academics met the standard. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:01 And you couldn't box here… Col. Mark Clifford 30:03 And I couldn't do that without the academics. My dad saying, like, “You don't do anything else unless your academics are where they need to be.” And lastly — it was OK for me militarily. I can make the military stuff work. It wasn't my party. Maybe I should have bowed a little bit more. So I share that with our cadets. Is how do you balance those things that want to make you successful? The one thing I tell the cadets now is, because I've been in the civilian world, it's tough. Like, if you leave here, you got to navigate A, go get a degree, and then B, trying to find a job which meets your standard and the standard of living that you want to have, it's going to be difficult. It's not — and so it's still a cadet's choice. Yes, and we've talked to them about, like, all right, make sure you put things in place to make yourself successful. But I try to give them same advice. I said, “There's no other place outside of the three military academies where you're going to go through a really tough time, you're going to have really awesome friends, you're gonna have a great experience, and, oh, by the way, you have a job, and you graduate — with free medical and dental, like that stuff's not cheap. Yeah, so I, you know, I think I share those things with the cadets, especially when they talk about leaving. And then I like to share — I try not to go back to, “Oh, back in my day” with that. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:19 Because our day was a long time ago. Col. Mark Clifford 31:21 Now you didn't have to say it out loud. I think we know that, but it's true, you know, it's there are still some challenges out there, but they have to navigate the waters, and there's some things that they do differently now at the Academy that we did when we were at the Academy, but this is a really cool place. It's a great place to be from. It's a great place to put on a resume when you decide to get out of the military after your obligation. It's a great place because they're gonna give you a job and occupation. You get to fly jets if that's what you want to do. There's so many opportunities here that the cadets have. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:59 Yes. Col. Mark Clifford 31:59 And I just overload them with that, because I think it is an amazing place. And the reason why I come back to it, because I think so highly of what it's done for me and shaped me. How can I do that for others and mentor others to make sure that they have a similar experience, but a successful one, no matter what their story is. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:17 Can you share an example of a cadet that surprised you from a leadership perspective, because of their work with you and their time in the ring. Col. Mark Clifford 32:25 Well, it's hard. So I'm only in my second year. I've got a couple of seniors this year. Elise Bell is one of them. Her fiancé, Kamari Jackson, is a cadet I met when I was here. He was starting his junior year, he's coming off a neck injury, and I challenged him because he's hanging around the gym. I didn't know why. Now I know why. I thought it was boxing, it wasn't. It was Elise, but I'm good with that, you know. I would whisper in Elise's ear, try to get him back, because he was really good as a freshman. Then got hurt, but he's another young man that's just took leadership by the horn. Came in back this year, I challenged him to be at a certain weight. He said, “Coach, I'm coming back, I want to win it. I made weight.” I didn't think he was going to make the weight his first semester, fall semester. He was a squadron commander, plate is full but still made it down. Was one of those — he wasn't our team captain, but he was a team captain. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:26 Yes. Col. Mark Clifford 33:27 It was just one of those… Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:28 …leading without rank or title. Col. Mark Clifford 33:30 You didn't need it, yeah, but he just had that. He has an aura. I wouldn't say he surprised me. I just think it was just one of those success stories where you're going, man. I love to have a team like this that just — and we do. They lead in their own way. We've got some quiet ones; I've got some vocal ones. I've got ones — our senior this year, our heavyweight, the one that won the Wing Open, he did it with his work ethic. Elise Bell, she leads with her work ethic. There are different ways of leading in the gym, and I try to harness that, and then elevate those that are doing it, making sure the team sees what they're doing. There's a young lady, she's very quiet, prior enlisted two-time national champ now. She's won three Wing Opens, she's gonna probably get her fourth as a senior, she's gonna be our team captain this year, because she's quiet, but it brings out her show, forces her to use her voice a little bit more, because she does it quietly with her work ethic in the corner. But you all see her because she's always in the ring and she's always working. So, I wouldn't say they surprised me just yet. I haven't had so many surprises just yet, but I've had some that has solidified my resolve in why I came back because they understand where they're going, they're learning what leadership is, because you don't always have to vocally stand on the pedestal and be the person on top to be a leader, and I love that piece of this. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:56 So, I'm sure maybe this is a silly question, but obviously you have been assistant coach in the past. What made you come back as head coach? Col. Mark Clifford 35:03 It's a silly question, Naviere. These cadets — no, this place is special. I love the Athletic Department. I mean, back to what it's done for me: I had the opportunity to come back as a young captain, working in the athletic department, was able to get a doctorate degree out of this place, was able to come back again and be around the cadets to learn more from Coach Eddie Weichers. And I think all of those parts and pieces helped develop me, because it put me in positions where I was able to grab jobs and be in positions to be successful. I had no business picking up a squadron command the second time I was here, but I was able to pick up the squadron command, because I had people pulling for me, pushing for me, and that's what you go back to, like you said before, what helped shape you, and that it's just the people around here that help shape me. And how do I come back and give back to an institution, to a department that really shaped me as an individual? And that's what I'm doing. I think I come back because it's — I want to see the cadets who struggled like me, and I find them in class too, that are debating whether they want to be or not, looking for something else to be a part of, and I always invite them to be part of the boxing family, because I know what boxing did for me and others who went through this program that were competitive, that couldn't make another team, or wasn't on a different team that wanted to show their skill that wanted to balance something from the academic side, because that is so stressful. Punching something is very stress relieving. There's something about it — especially if I can punch something in the face in front of other people and not get in trouble — I was doing it. And so I think being able to come back and give that opportunity to other cadets and then watch them flourish with it and grow with it, I think is why I'm back. And so I'm thankful for the athletic department. I'm thankful for the Academy. So, how do I pay it forward in my way, paying it forward? This is my way of paying it forward. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:02 I love that. Well, I want to ask you something that we ask our guests on this, because it's really about how you continue to hone your skills as a leader through all the journeys, right? In uniform, out of uniform, in the private sector, higher education, etc. What is something you do every day to be better as a leader? Col. Mark Clifford 37:23 Well, you know, I think is internally, “How do I have an impact,” as a head coach in the athletic department, and I'm not an NCAA sport like some of our other coaches. How do I impact people around me in my sphere of influence? It's very different now when you're an officer, when you're a commander, you have entire unit that you have impact on. Mine are smaller. One, it's internally with my team, is how do I lead and impact my team, and so I want to make sure that I'm always prepared to support our cadets through practice, having a plan for them so they know when they walk in the door what we're supposed to do. Because I think that's important from a discipline standpoint of knowing and understanding what I have to do when I get to the gym, and what my end goal is. And I always come in for that mentally prepared, and then mentally preparing them for the rest of the season, because we have a long season. And then I always think about my series of influence. I'm in the athletic department on the physical education side. How do I make sure I am prepared for the other cadets in classes that aren't on the team? Make sure they have a positive experience in PE class, but also I make sure they know that I'm a grad. I make sure that they know I'm a high-level guy, because I think there's value in that when they can always ask questions that are driven towards operational air force, not necessarily about this particular class. So I make sure I'm prepared for those cadets, and then how do I then allow myself to be available for the rest of the department, not only the physical education department, but our athletic directors, and making sure that I'm a resource. I've been here before, right? I understand something. I may not have all the answers, but I'm willing to help the support. I'm always preparing myself daily for the cadets and the staff and the folks around me that my sphere of influence has, at least the best part of me every time I can work. And so I think daily for me it's a mental preparation, but also, you know, prepping for the day of the day of, from a leadership perspective, because my leadership role is very different now than what it was when you're active duty, when you're sitting at Grand Canyon University as a dean or assistant dean, right? Your influence is very different. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:40 So mentally you prepare yourself. What does that look like as far as like activity, right? So, are you taking care of yourself physically, so that you have the capacity to do more? Are you — I'm just curious, like, what does that look like when you say you're preparing yourself? Col. Mark Clifford 39:56 I do a couple of things. I think in the morning when I get up, I have a cup of coffee, and we typically — my wife and I typically watch the news together. It is thinking about the impacts of what happens in our world, how that impacts our Academy. I don't think — there's very little ripple effect that gets to the cadet, but also understanding why what's happening in our world is important to a cadet. I always try to prepare myself for those conversations, just in case they come up, and they have come up in classes sometimes. But I just give my perspective more so. Physically, I hit the gym, I work in a gym, so my wife says I have no excuse, at least you better be in a gym using equipment. I physically do that, and then I try to make sure I walk through our gym and put pieces together, equipment together, and make sure the equipment's in place and ready for our cadets, and sometimes I box and stuff. I gotta stay sharp. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:01 I was gonna ask, you know, how that you did with what was his name, the assistant coach at the time, Ray… Col. Mark Clifford 41:06 Ray Carter. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:07 Yes, are you ever across in the ring with someone; with a cadet? Col. Mark Clifford 41:12 My first year, I did. My last year, I let the young captains and majors do that. I realized that my mind will say do something — move out the way. I don't move out the way as quick as I used to, but I think I do. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:27 Then you feel that you didn't. Col. Mark Clifford 41:12 Exactly. I didn't. Never let the cadets know they got you. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:33 That's funny. All right, I want to ask you one more question. What's something, if you could have a conversation with young Mark as a cadet today, what would you tell yourself? Col. Mark Clifford 41:44 I think the one thing I would tell myself is, trust the process, be the best that you can be, where you are, and where you're playing it, and do that to the best of your ability, and then shake off the negativity and the nonsense. I had some great friends here, but also some friends that didn't want to be here either, and so you feed off that negativity. I think that got into who I was, especially as a young cadet, because some of that negativity that probably kept me from being my best in certain areas, especially academically, especially militarily, because I think if I were able to do that, maybe my outcome probably would have been on the same trajectory, but also it would have been more positive experience, Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:27 Less painful for sure. Col. Mark Clifford 42:29 Yeah, not chasing other things, trying to get your tape out, go recruit somewhere else. You're happy where you are, you're doing the best that you can, and it's going to be challenging, tough. And understand that you're going to take some losses, that's what this place is about. It's not always going to be a win, because in life, it's not always a win. And if you can bounce back from a loss, at some point it took me two years, in that third year, I bounced back in the loss to get that W, life becomes very, very easy. Yeah, you kind of figured out, so that's what I tell myself to prepare myself a little better. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:05 No, that's excellent. What's something that we didn't talk about today that you would really like to make sure that we share? Col. Mark Clifford 43:11 I think we kind of talked about it, family, my family, my wife's been my rock for almost 30 years, we're on 29 this year, we're going on 30. We've got two boys that say they don't want to be in the military, I don't want to move. My oldest son is not in the military, he's moved three times since he graduated college two years ago. And then the youngest one, who didn't want to do it, would join officer training school in July. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:34 Congratulations! Col. Mark Clifford 43:35 Yeah, super-proud. He's taking an eight-week route, not the five-year route. So, I don't know if he's smarter, I don't know how to play that one, but you know, I can't say enough about making sure that your family supports what you do. I could not have been as successful or do the things that I was able to do in the Air Force without my wife Elise and my two boys, Caleb and Jaden, without their support, because there were some tough times when you're deployed and you're gone and you just need that rock to make sure that the household is good, so you focus on your job while you're gone and be home in your home, and she made sure that we did that when we had opportunities, and she also, no matter where we went, made sure it was a home, and so I'm thankful for that, because the boys always had home versus places that we had to move to, right, and like you said, we have some good ones, thankfully. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 44:29 Well, it sounds like you also have translated that, bringing that that Elise has brought to your family, to your boxing family. I mean, I think when cadets are there, they're home away, this is home away from home, right? And maybe not all of them have father figures or leaders in their lives, and it sounds like you kind of taken that mantle, placed it right there. Col. Mark Clifford 44:47 I tried, I tried. You know, we talked about this before we started, but I'm gonna push them hard. Make sure that they exceed that level of physicality and mentality that they think they can, because they will exceed it and be able to perform when it's time to perform. And I love it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:07 Well, Mark, this has been amazing — Coach Clifford, I mean. What you're doing at the program, I mean, you started with you, right, embedded in you, and now you're taking it to the next level. What I learned today in your leadership lessons are those things that you've battled with in the ring, you're bringing out in life, whether in uniform, out of uniform, and you're not only sharing it with those that have been directly on your team, but those that may join your team. You know, we just talked about those basic cadets. So, what I really appreciate about you is you're willing to be there in that with them, celebrating their wins and helping them navigate those losses. So, thanks for being an incredible leader, and thanks for being on Long Blue Leadership. Thank you for investing your time, and for joining us here on Long Blue Leadership. I encourage you to share this episode with others who are on their own leadership journey. You can find this and all our conversations wherever you get your podcasts, or at longblueleadership.org. Until next time, I'm Naviere Walkewicz. KEYWORDS Leadership development, servant leadership, transformational leadership, competitive mindset, resilience, mental toughness, accountability, team culture, coaching and mentoring, leading by example, emotional intelligence, authenticity, character development, warrior ethos, growth mindset, discipline, perseverance, decision-making, ethical leadership, influencing without authority, role modeling, performance under pressure, purpose-driven leadership, mentorship, building trust, developing potential, talent identification, culture change, officer development, military leadership, sports leadership, motivation, intrinsic motivation, ownership, responsibility, humility, continuous improvement, self-reflection, family support, work-life integration, peer influence, values-based leadership, strategic thinking, adaptability, handling failure, bouncing back from setbacks, high standards, excellence, preparation, focus, commitment, dedication. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
Leadership isn't about perfection — it's about accountability, especially when things don't go as planned. SUMMARY From lessons learned as a cadet to leading her teams through complex challenges, Col. (Ret.) Erin Staine-Pyne '98 reflects on how transparency, empathy and trust define strong leadership in uncertain moments. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK ERIN STAINE-PYNE'S TOP LEADERSHIP LESSONS AND TAKEAWAYS Own your mistakes quickly and fully. Col. Staine-Pyne's cadet party incident shows the power of taking responsibility and using failure as a positive turning point. Forgive fast — others and yourself. Col. Staine-Pyne highlights forgiving herself and the freshman who reported the incident as essential to moving forward productively instead of getting stuck in blame or resentment. Lead with transparency, especially in crisis. Both as a cadet and as a wing commander during COVID, she emphasized open communication. Be visibly human and vulnerable. Sharing personal context built trust and showed airmen she understood their fears, not just the mission. Practice empathy as a core leadership “superpower.” Col. Staine-Pyne stresses learning to truly understand people's perspectives and lives — not just knowing their names and roles — and then leading with that understanding in mind. Use your team; leadership is not a solo sport. From wing commander “tiger teams” to USAF Weapons School class dynamics, Col. Staine-Pyne consistently relied on senior enlisted leaders, peers, planners and classmates instead of trying to solve everything alone. Balance mission and people with nuance, not slogans. During COVID and high-tempo ops, she wrestled with protecting a “no-fail” mission while also protecting health and morale and adjusting policies and workloads rather than defaulting to one extreme. Don't self-limit; say yes to stretch opportunities. Col. Staine-Pyne nearly ruled herself out of Weapons School but trusted her leaders' belief in her and stepped into being the first woman in the school's C‑130 program — and graduated at the top of her class. Her advice: Apply and let others say no. Integrate work and family intentionally at critical career peaks. Instead of chasing perfect “balance,” Col. Staine-Pyne treats career and family as waves: Lean into work during when needed but consciously bring along family and use leave to truly refresh. See failure as a leadership classroom, not a verdict. From the cadet party incident to the week‑to‑week swings in Weapons School performance, Col. Staine-Pyne views setbacks as information and training for better leadership, not as permanent labels. CHAPTERS 00:00:02 – Introducing Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 00:00:49 – Cadet Party Incident: A Costly Mistake 00:02:59 – Owning Failure & Learning to Forgive 00:04:49 – Transparency, Reputation and the Cadet Wing 00:06:59 – Early Aspirations & Family Influences 00:08:25 – Becoming a Wing Commander Right Before COVID 00:10:13 – Leading Through a Pandemic & Tough, Unpopular Decisions 00:15:02 – Personal Impact of Command During COVID 00:17:01 – Mentors, Humility & Weapons School Opportunity 00:20:59 – Inside Weapons School: Pressure, Teamwork & Distinction 00:25:44 – Empathy, Tempo and the People‑Mission Balance 00:29:10 – Work–Life Waves, Legacy and Advice to Young Leaders ABOUT COL. ERIN STAINE-PYNE '98 BIO Col. Erin Staine-Pyne, U.S. Air Force Academy Class of 1998, is a career mobility aviator and proven senior leader with more than 3,500 flight hours in C-17 and C-130 aircraft, former wing commander, and now general manager of mobility at Merlin Labs. Inspired early by a love of aviation and a father who graduated from West Point, she pursued her dream of flying through the Academy and went on to become an aircraft commander, instructor and, ultimately, the first woman to graduate from the C-130 division of the Air Force Weapons School, where she distinguished herself as the top graduate in her class. Her leadership journey includes commanding a 2,400-person C-17 wing at Joint Base Lewis-McChord through the onset of the COVID pandemic, where she balanced a no-fail nuclear mission, the health and welfare of her airmen and their families, and her own complex family responsibilities with transparency, empathy and a deeply human approach. Known for her team-first mindset, humility and emphasis on learning from failure — as illustrated by formative experiences as a cadet and throughout her operational career — Col. Staine-Pyne now channels her leadership, operational expertise and passion for developing others into bridging military-grade mobility experience with cutting-edge aviation technology in industry, while prioritizing her role as a fully present mom. CONNECT WITH ERIN LINKEDIN CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE AT USAFA.ORG/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP AND ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS: Guest, Erin Staine-Pyne '98 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 Well, Erin, thank you so much for joining us here on Long Blue Leadership. Erin Staine-Pyne, Class of '98. We are so excited for this conversation, because, you know, you've had such an amazing career. You know, 3,500 hours in the C-17 and C-130 cockpits to wing commander — and now you're general manager of mobility at Merlin Labs. Just incredible. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 0:26 Thank you. Such a pleasure to be with you, too, Naviere. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:34 Well, you know, we like to jump right in. And there's actually something that is probably unknown, because you have done so many amazing things, and part of that comes with a story that's not always, you know, rainbows and butterflies. And so back when you were a cadet, if you don't mind sharing this with us, I know you were wearing your supt's pin. You were captain of the soccer team, and you found yourself marching some tours. Do you mind sharing that story with us? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 0:55 Yeah, no, I don't mind at all, because it turned out to be a great leadership lesson in my life. So yeah, I was kind of at the top of my game, I felt like in my senior year at the Academy, we had a short break going in our soccer season, we had a weekend off, which was pretty rare, and the other captain and I were like, Hey, let's get the girls together, right? We deserve to have a little bit of fun. Take a little break. Like, what could we do to make that happen? And we decided, hey, let's rent a hotel room. We'll throw a little party. We'll have some friends over. What cadets haven't done that exactly. We'll be super responsible. We'll get the hotel room so nobody drives. Yeah, we thought about taking care of each other, but as it turned out, we had a great night, fun time, no harm, no foul. But later that week, we found out that one of the freshmen on our team turned us in for underage drinking. And that was a big, shocking moment in my senior year. So it turned into most of the team being restricted, marching tours, you know, really having their reputation tarnished a bit. And even worse for us, maybe than that, was the season took a huge nosedive. You know, we were in a really good place from a from a sport perspective, and we just couldn't get it back together after that happened. And for me, you know, as I looked back on that event, I'm so thankful that it happened at the Academy and not sometime later in my career, when I was in charge of young airmen, but I'm glad it happened at the Academy and I took a couple of really great lessons out of it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:44 That is quite a lesson. I mean, I'm just thinking about someone who is a high achiever doing really well, has this reputation of that's, like you said, untarnished. Let's just take a moment in that space, because there are experiences that all leaders have, I think that are challenging in some way, that maybe is reputational. How do you navigate that? How did you carry yourself through that, when it probably felt dark? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 3:11 Yeah it was a little bit bleak. I mean, my family knew about it. But to answer the question, I found myself taking ownership, like, “Ooh, we made a really big mistake. I made a really big mistake as a leader. I took the team the wrong direction.” And so I apologized — like I apologized to the commandant, I apologized to my coaches, I apologized to my teammates, I apologized to some of their parents too, right, that we saw later in the season. And so I think the biggest thing that you can do in that moment is go, “I've really screwed up, and I'll take stock of that and change in the future.” And then the other thing is, you have to learn to forgive fast, like forgive yourself. I made a mistake. This isn't forever, right? It'll be something that I learned along the journey. But then also, for example, the freshmen that turned us in — that was a really emotional moment for the rest of the team. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:17 And you all stayed on the team together? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 4:18 We did for a while. She did end up leaving the Academy eventually, which I'm disappointed about. Like, I kind of feel like that's a little bit of another leadership failure there. But I just think the thing I learned out of it later was you have to forgive quickly. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:33 Wow. I mean, it seems so interesting that you had that kind of lesson so early. But I think one of the best things about the academy is really as a leadership lab we talk about, you know, being able to grow from learning lessons. How would you say your other cadets outside of the bubble? Right? The bubble being those who are in it with you. Because I think in life in general, when things happen, you kind of have this other perspective of people who don't know what's going on, and so then they come up with their own perceptions and thoughts on that. How did you navigate that as a cadet in the Cadet Wing? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 5:09 Yeah, I think it was trying at my first attempts at transparency, yeah, you know, like, “Hey, this is what's going on.” Like, people would ask us, “How much trouble are you guys in?” And at first we'd be like, “Well, we don't really know.” You know? “We don't know what this is going to turn out to look like,” and then once we kind of got our punishment, six months of restriction, 100 tours, 100 confinements, but with the potential, at least for the seniors to still graduate, we tried to share that with people too, like as if the leadership at the Academy still had some faith in us and thought we might still be able to graduate and be lieutenants someday. So, yeah, I would just say we tried some transparency. And, you know, there was also this kind of feeling of, I can't believe that your teammate did that. And we tried to address that too, you know, so it wouldn't come back, especially specifically on her right, as, you know, she was the one at fault here, right, like we were all at fault, you know, not doing the right thing. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:14 What a way to rise above. And I think really, what a beautiful story. Because I think some lessons in there, transparency, making sure that it, you know, it was responsibility that everyone took on, and it wasn't starting to point fingers. Because I think it certainly is easy to try and push things away from ourselves, isn't it? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 6:30 Yeah, absolutely, Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:31 Oh, my goodness, thank you for sharing that. I'm sure that was quite a lesson. So you went on to graduate. Yes, yes. And so did you always know you wanted to be a pilot? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 6:43 I did. Yeah, since I was really young, I knew I wanted to fly airplanes. My parents sent me to Space Academy when I was somewhere around 11 or 12, and I thought, “Oh, I could be an astronaut. Someday, I want to fly the shuttle.” And so that just sparked the interest. And my dad's a West Point grad, and so when I went to him and asked him, “How do you become a pilot?” He said, “Well, you go to the Air Force Academy,” as if there was no other choice out there. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:10 So did you not even apply to West Point? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 7:11 I didn't. Much to his — I mean, I think that hurt his heart, but I didn't. He took me up there for a visit. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:19 Just in case you want to just see. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 7:20 Yeah, the Army has lots of pilots. Yes, no, the Air Force Academy was my destination. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:25 That is fascinating. So growing up, were you always someone that was a go-getter? Was this kind of ingrained in you because of your dad the way he raised you? Your mom, like, let's talk about your family dynamic. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 7:35 And yeah, sure, yeah. My dad an army officer. My mom, super hard worker. Worked in the Senate for a long time as a press secretary, and they just — yeah, they were they were wonderful, and I feel so lucky at the dynamic I had growing up. But yeah, I loved being a leader early, like I loved being in charge early. I could sense that about myself, like I wanted to be the person who helped others get to wherever they were going to. So I sensed that early. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:08 Oh, gosh, that's fascinating. So you went to the Air Force Academy, you came out, you got to go and you got to fly, and you're living your dream. I'd like to jump fast forward a bit, because in your leadership role, obviously, you know, as a pilot, you were doing some amazing things, and we can certainly talk about that. But there was a period of time in which you were a wing commander. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 8:28 Oh, sure. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:30 And I think you know, being a wing commander already is an amazing feat, but you were a wing commander during a time that I think was unprecedented in our country, COVID. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 8:40 Yeah, yeah, it was. It was an interesting time. I took the flag for Joint Base Lewis-McChord in early January 2020 and literally a month later, I was dealing with the first cases of COVID in Seattle, in the Seattle area. And so it went from being like, “This is everything I've worked really hard for and I am so excited to lead this amazing organization” to “I have never done anything like this before. No one has, and no one really has a whole lot of advice on what we're going to do next, and we're going to have to figure this out.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:22 So can you put it in perspective a little bit, just for us to understand? You know, when you're a wing commander, like, how large is this wing and kind of, what are the responsibilities that you were having to oversee while you're navigating a medical crisis? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 9:34 Yeah, so the wing is about 2,400 airmen. It's a C-17 wing, and so mobility operations never stop, right? Twenty-four hours a day, we're flying airplanes. I also had a clinic at the time, and then an airfield to run. Yeah, so a few things. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:53 Yes, just a couple. Oh, my goodness. OK, so maybe let's, let's talk about what that was like. Because I imagine, as a wing commander, while you do have a network in the way of working with your ,you know, those that are supporting you and all the experts, it still can be, probably be a little bit lonely. How do you navigate that? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 10:13 Yeah, well, I think a lot of people say that right, leadership is lonely, and I think it is in the context that at the end of the day, you're the person who has to make those final, tough decisions, no one else can make them for you, right? But the truth is, you have the most amazing a team around you, right? I had, during my time as a wing commander, two of the most amazing seniorenlisted leaders, two chiefs. My group commanders, also colonels, were really, really incredible and experienced. And then the wing commander network is actually pretty powerful too. So you have peers that you've grown up with as squadron commanders who are now in charge of other wings dealing with similar things. And so you lean into that too. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:00 Well, we talk about networks in general mean, I think networks are so powerful, not even just in uniform, but outside of uniform. What was it like really trying to I think, when I think about the airmen that you were, you know, leading, they had their families and their own concerns as well. What was a challenging moment as a leader that you had to navigate, maybe where you weren't popular or did you feel like you actually navigated a space where everyone loved you? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 11:24 No. I mean, unfortunately, at the end of the day, you do have to make some of those really tough decisions. And so for us at McChord, we were in the middle of the biggest movement of nuclear weapons in history, and so an incredibly important no fail mission, right? And so my main focus was, how do I keep, specifically my crews that are trained to carry nuclear weapons, how do I keep them healthy? We don't have a lot of them, so if a couple of them get sick or something happens, then the mission really is at risk. So I really was focused on how to keep them healthy, but I also was just broadly worried about my older civilians who might be more susceptible to either getting COVID or having a real impact from it. I was worried about my airmen who had family members who might be immune compromised. I was worried about airmen who might go home and take it to their parents or grandparents. So it wasn't quite as simple as, “Well, our airmen are young and healthy.” You know, it's a much more challenging problem than that. And so when COVID was really bad, kind of the fall going into Christmas of 2020, one of the things I had to do was decide, am I going to let my airmen travel? The Air Force would eventually take care of that decision for me. But when the airmen are here, can they get together and celebrate the holidays? Are they going to have to spend Thanksgiving alone? You know, what kind of tough decisions am I going to have to make here? And so, yeah, I probably made some pretty unpopular decisions, thinking at the time that I was protecting the mission, and the way I handled it was it kind of goes back to one of those lessons I learned earlier, was transparency. Yes, we started doing things like Facebook Live, we let people ask as many questions as they wanted to or were brave enough to. And tried to do our best to answer them. And we also tried to convey that we know we're not making perfect decisions right now, like we're learning to right now. And just tried to be very human about it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:42 What an amazing approach, a human approach. And I think what's so great about the way you did that was most people only see the struggle from their lens, yeah. And as a leader, you're having to look at the if I make this decision, what's the second, third and fourth, you know, effect that comes from that decision on a much broader scale. And so I think when you talked about the transparency, that is really powerful. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 14:04 And it was a great way to get feedback too. You know, I, like some of my young airmen were struggling at the time, but actually it was some of my single officers, even who, you know, didn't quite have that family network around them where they were. And so we realized we had to pay attention to some other groups too, as we tried to think of ways to make sure we were taking care of the individual, but also the mission. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:33 My goodness. I mean, I just think about it, the standpoint of the weight that you carried in that space. How did it impact you on the home front, right? So you're leading up a wing, but you also have a family as well. What did that look like that? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 14:45 It was a challenging time. I had a 2-year-old at home, right? And at certainly, at the beginning of COVID, we didn't know what the impact kids was going to be, and so I was worried that she might be really vulnerable at that time. And my husband, who was also an Academy grad, his parents were living with us at the time, helping with the baby, and his dad had cancer. And so we were incredibly concerned about even me going to work every day, and the possibility of bringing something back to the house was a huge challenge. There was a time where I would enter through the garage and, like, strip down, put new clothes on, or go straight to a shower. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:31 Like a hazmat. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 15:32 Yeah. I mean, it was a really interesting time at the beginning. So many unknowns. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:37 Oh, my goodness. Well, I think most people can understand when I said hazmat, like hazardous materials and clearing yourself from it. But in a way, that's kind of what, how COVID did impact us. Wow. When you were talking in those moments as almost looks like a human and vulnerable leader in that approach, did you share, like, “Look, I understand these things as well, because I, too, have a family.” Did you — were those the ways you were… Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 15:58 Yes, absolutely. So anytime I got a chance to talk to airmen face to face, I would talk to them about how I'm my focus is certainly accomplishing our mission, but my focus is on their health, their family's health, and this is how I'm thinking about it, right? I'm thinking about my own family and the different dynamics we have going on, and how it might apply to them too. And I love the fact that before that, you would never have seen a wing commander doing something like a Facebook Live. But that just became such an incredible tool for that exact reason. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:33 Yes, so just thinking about the way you handled that, was there someone in your life, a mentor, or someone that you saw kind of display those traits that you emulated, or were they just something that you innately had in you? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 16:44 No, I'm sure I picked up on traits from multiple leaders that I had throughout my career. Col. John Murkowski is probably one of my favorite mentors. He was a DO in my first squadron… Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:00 Director of operations. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 17:02 Thank you; in my first squadron. And later I would work and work for him as a staff officer at Air Mobility Command. And I watched him lead, just with so much humility, very caring leadership style and certainly a good communicator. And you know, somebody like that is somebody you want to emulate in the future. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:25 Absolutely. And if I recall correctly, he's the one I think that might have turned your eye open to this concept of Air Force Weapons School, right? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 17:33 It's true. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:35 Let's talk about that a little bit. Because so for those listening and watching, you know, I was not an aviator, I was a logistics officer. And so I think even the thought of Weapons School, to me, is very much a pilot and aviation focused opportunity. Can we just talk a little bit about that in general, just so that we all can learn more about Weapons School? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 17:54 Yeah, I mean, certainly the history of the weapons school is focused on fighter operations. Right? The fighter pilot employing weapons being a tactical expert leading operations. That's how it started. But I think one of the best things the Air Force ever did was realize that in order to be successful in modern combat, you have to have a force that's integrated. So you need your intel officers to understand and provide information to the entire the entire force. You need space officers who can employ space effects at the right time. You need more than just the person in the flight deck or cockpit who's employing the weapons. So they somewhere in the '90s, right? We branched out. It started, certainly Intel officers were part of it for a long time, but it branched out into the mobility communities, and then later you would see it branch out into the space communities too. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:53 So it was early and not very long before this opportunity was presented to you. Let's talk about that. Because had you, I know you had your site set on being a pilot. Were your site set on Weapons School? Erin Staine-Pyne 19:04 Never, never. No, I think — I felt, at least at that point, I felt really young in my career, still, right? I was an aircraft commander at the time. I wasn't an instructor in my weapons system yet. I wasn't an evaluator in my weapons system yet. And my director of operations came to me and said, “We want you to apply to weapons school.” And I was like, “I'm pretty young for that, Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:30 And it's very competitive, right? Erin Staine-Pyne 19:31 It's very competitive. And the weapons officers in my squadron were like, they like, walked on water. Seemed like. They're so knowledgeable. So I hadn't really thought about it mostly in terms of time, like what it didn't seem like the right time for me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:50 So what made you say yes to apply? Erin Staine-Pyne 19:53 Yeah, I think, I think it was really two things. One was clearly my leadership believed in me, and that was hugely powerful, right? Somebody comes to you and says, “No, we think you are ready for this.” That was hugely powerful. And then the other thing is, they also said to me, “You would be the first woman to go through the C-130 program. We've never had a female graduate.” And I said, “Well, that's ridiculous.” Like, why is that still a barrier right now? And so I thought, “Well, if not me, then who?” Like, who's going to be the next woman who might be interested in that opportunity? And so I kind of threw a little caution to the wind I feel like, and said, “OK, let's do this.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:43 What is that experience like? Because I know what it's like to apply to apply to the Air Force Academy. You know, you have this, the program you're going through when you're getting, you know, your weapon system up that you're going to get in pilot training. What is it like, this application process for Weapons School? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 20:57 Yeah, so I remember you have to fill out a bunch of forms. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:00 OK, so that's pretty similar. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 21:03 Yeah, annotated paperwork. You have to fill out a bunch of forms, but on the forms, you have to talk about your flying experience and all the things you know. You have to have certain boxes checked, if you will. And so I remember filling out the form. They're like, “You have to have 100 hours as an instructor pilot.” And I'm like, “I don't have that, you know, but we'll plan to have accomplished prior to Weapons School starting,” Um, so yeah, I remember filling out the form and just being like, “OK, this kind of confirms I'm not sure I'm ready for this.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:35 But obviously yes. So how many people are — maybe the word is accepted — into Weapons School class, and then how many typically graduate? Like, what's the attrition rate? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 21:45 Yeah, so each platform is different on how many students they take. Typically in a C-130 class, you would have somewhere around eight or nine students and you're probably going to lose perhaps one per class. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:03 OK, the numbers are small to begin with; that's kind of significant. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 22:04 Significant, yeah. If the class isn't making it through, every once in a while, you'll lose two and that's a challenge. It's a challenge to run the program without enough students, too. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:15 OK, so how long is that? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 22:16 It's a six-month program, OK, or maybe five and a half months approximately. So it's a pretty big chunk of your flying life to go to training for that long too. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:27 So let's talk about that, because there was probably some growth in yourself as a leader. One feeling like you weren't actually ready, then you were accepted. So then you're clearly ready, but you know, you're navigating it, and almost enough in a first kind of capacity. What was it like from growing as a leader in Weapons School? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 22:43 Yeah, it was. It was just the perfect example of how obstacles can be opportunities, you know? And like, I talked to some of my younger airmen now and I tell them, “Don't ever turn down an opportunity, because you never know when that opportunity is going to be the thing that that really propels your career or changes what you're interested in, or leads you down a really interesting path.” And so I walked in the door, and I certainly was a little bit nervous, and perhaps had a chip on my shoulder about being the first woman to go through the program. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:18 Tell me what you mean by that. Chip on your shoulder. Chip on — you're like, “Why hasn't it happened yet?” Or chip on — like, “I have something to prove.” Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 23:24 Yeah, maybe I have something to prove, you know, like that, “I'm good enough to be here.” And what I learned, though, is, as soon as the program started, and I actually met the instructors and the people, you know, my classmates, the people that I'd be going through the program with, is it was completely unnecessary. They wanted nothing more than me to be, you know, wildly successful in the program. And so it just turned out to be such an opportunity and such a great experience. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:56 And I'm going to mention this because I'm sure that you won't, you end up being the top graduate from your Weapons School class. What did that look like through the program? You know? How did you earn that? And was it from different things you demonstrated as a leader? Like, what brought that forth? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 24:14 Yeah, I think, certainly it's especially in the Air Force flying communities, like you have to do the work yourself, right? It's hard work. You have to study. There's a lot of academics, but I think at the end of the day, what's really important is that you understand that the team dynamics. You know you're going through the weapon school with eight or another eight or nine other people. Are you the person who sits down and helps somebody out when you're good at something and they're not? Are you the person who recognizes what the other teammates are really good at and take advantage of that? It's really about learning those individuals and building the team dynamics up that makes you successful in a program like that. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:00 Erin, I'm just thinking back on all the things that you've shared with me, just in the way that you are such a team minded person. You know at the Academy, you were the team captain. You know at weapons school, you're, you know, the distinguished graduate. That what they call graduate, yes, and so wing commander. I mean, I think there's this theme. What would you say is probably that most important characteristic that you carry then as a leader? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 25:28 Yeah, it's, I feel like maybe this is a broken record with some other leaders, but I think it's empathy. I really do. I think one of the things I think about back to my Air Force Academy experience, is, you know, I had freshmen I was responsible for as a sophomore, or I had teammates I was responsible for as a team captain, and did I really get to know them? Like I knew them. But did I really get to know them? Could I really walk in their shoes for a little bit and practice empathy for them? And so it took me a long time to learn, like, what a skill it is to be able to see something from somebody else's perspective, and how you can use that when you're leading. But I'd say it now: It's a superpower. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:14 When have you found in your career that that could be really challenging, like the knowing that's such an important fabric in your being a leader but also having to balance the mission right? Can you share a story or anything? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 26:29 Yeah, I really can. So one of the things that was challenging at McChord was our tempo, right? We were really busy, especially in certain mission areas, and so I could see the strain on some of my airmen. And the question is, how far can you push right like, how far can you push before it's too far and they really get unhealthy? And so I found myself — because I certainly feel empathetic towards them, I've been the person on the road all the time — I felt myself wanting to go to my MAJCOM and say, “You guys have to slow down for us, like you have to give us a little bit less mission.” And yet, at the time, they needed us to do more, you know. And so really trying to get into the details about how much workload can we sustain? How can we find different ways to share the workload across the wing that maybe we haven't thought of before? I found myself trying to find alternate ways to balance those two things that were really ahead with each other. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:41 Was that something that you had the opportunity to talk through or work through with someone, or is this something that you really kind of just had to dig in internally and figure out? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 27:52 Yeah, no, it's a perfect example of digging into the team, right? Bringing the team back together. I had a great ops group commander who really understood the challenge. I had a planner who was the person who would really plan out the sortie pace, who really understood the challenge, and had great contacts at Air Mobility Command, like, No, I mean, we would bring a tiger team together to try to figure this out. And my job at that time was to give direction, remove obstacles out of the way, but then really let them at their expert level, dig in and try to come up with some solutions. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:29 That's fantastic. The team effort, everyone just kind of rallying around. So I'm curious on —because of the tempo of the roles you've had to be in and lead and experiences you've had, how has that impacted you? Your ability to be present with your family? How do you navigate that as a leader? Because I think that's something that leaders struggle with, like, how far do I go myself, and where am I willing to, you know, let things kind of go to the back burner. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 28:54 Yeah, I think it's one of the hardest challenges out there, right? People talk about work-life balance. I'm probably of the ilk that I don't really think there's a such a thing, right? I think it's more of a like a sine wave curve, where you pay attention to your career at those really critical times that you need to and then when there's an opportunity to kind of, you know, pull the throttles back, you do it. And if you learn that early in your career, that there are those peaks and valleys, you can build a healthy career over time. So I would find that certainly, anytime you're in a leadership position, right, squadron commander, flight commander, wing commander, those are going to be the times when you're right at the top and right, you've got to find ways to incorporate your family into the job. Yes, what I would tell you, and then the other times you can focus more on what they want to do. But yeah, when I was a commander, I would — my husband was fully involved in the squadron. When I was a wing commander, I had a Pack n' Play in my office right for my little one, because I wanted to make sure I got plenty of time with her too, and I would find ways to incorporate that too, right? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:08 And you actually showed that human side in leadership. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 30:11 Yeah. And I wanted my airmen to see it, to see that, you know, I wasn't all the time Air Force blue. We gotta go, go, go. No, I've got to find ways to make both of those things work Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:25 In all those times when you were leading others, and, you know, working in a partnership with Frank, your husband and your family, when did you find time to take care of you? Like, what did that look like for you? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 30:36 It was hard, it was hard, but I think what I did was I tried to find the things that gave me the most pleasure and prioritize those. So for me, it was, for example, I'm a soccer player, right? Anytime we were assigned to D.C., I joined my indoor soccer team and played soccer on the weekends, you know, or sometimes it was just curling up and reading a good book that had nothing to do with military. Like, finding some pleasure in the small things I do think we scheduled. Like, I never gave leave back. I think that's really important. That is such an importan — I always took advantage of my leave. And I would plan big things for it too, like, we're gonna go to Hawaii, or we're going to go to Europe, you know, we're going to do things and experience something else. So we have some of those really fun things to look back on. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:33 And when you took that leave, I'm curious, how did you navigate that space? As I'm a leader, am I reachable? Or what does that look like when you're on vacation? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 31:41 Yeah, I think you have to be reachable. Yes. I mean, unfortunately, sometimes there are just things that happen that you have to be reachable. But I think you also try to set an expectation that the person running your squadron or your wing or your, you know, whatever organization it is, that they understand when those moments are like, “You're not calling me for the small things. You're calling me because something big has happened and it requires my attention.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 32:11 No, that's perfect. So I'm as I'm thinking about your career, what is probably had been the most maybe rewarding, I'll give you an option, either, like, the most rewarding experience you've had as a leader, or maybe the most challenging, because I think, like, those kind of, you know, two ends of the spectrum really kind of forge us as leaders at times. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 32:30 Yeah, well, I'll tell you what the most rewarding is, because it's really fun. It's actually, it actually still happens now is, like, the other day, I got a note from one of one of my he was a staff sergeant when he was in my squadron, and he reaches out to me, he says, he's retiring, and could I come to his retirement? And, “Hey, you were the best squadron commander I ever had in my 20-year career.” You know, something like a piece of feedback like that, like I could sustain on that for a really long time, that that and that you made an impact in somebody's life, right? And they remember maybe some of the leadership traits you exemplified and used them themselves in their career. I just think that's like the full professional, complete loop. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:15 Wow, what a perfect way to take us here. Because one of the things I like to ask all of my guests on Long Blue Leadership is, What is something you are doing every day to be better? I mean, you talked about, you know, how you kind of lean into, you know, those moments and really celebrate them and be reachable, etc. But I'm curious, what are you doing every day? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 33:32 Yeah, I love this question, actually. So it made me reflect, “Am I doing something every day that will actually continue my own self-improvement?” And I think the answer is yes, but to be honest, right now, it's really focused somewhat inward on my family. Yeah. So I'm at that point in my career where I've spent a lot of time giving to the military, to the service, to whatever objective it was, and so today I am trying to be the best mom that I possibly can every single day. So I'll read a blog, a book, I'll talk to other moms, collaborate with her teachers. I'm really focused on trying to make sure I'm fully present as a mother, since I have the opportunity, because I was a little late to motherhood. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:22 Well, I mean, it sounds like a beautiful way to fill your own cup, right? Oh, I love that. Well, the other question we like to ask is, if you could turn back time and talk to your young self, or maybe just if you're thinking about cadets, and those who you know cadet hopeful is coming up and in, in today's day and age, what's something you would tell them to do now in the space they're in so they'll be better set up down the road? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 34:45 Yeah, I would tell them not to self-limit. Like, don't — if you think about something that you want to do in your career, or if you think about an idea that is possible, but maybe you think right now, you know nobody would support it or whatever. Don't self-limit. Like, go after it and be willing to take risks in that career space too. So there's so much that a single airman can do in this service, and there are senior leaders who want airmen who are kind of bold and willing to take risk and really reach their full potential. So yeah, don't self-limit. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 35:26 What does that look like? Like, what does — I mean the idea of saying to myself, “OK, like, I'm just going to be really open to things.” Or, how do you put that into practice? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 35:33 I think it means, if you want to apply for a program and you're like, “I'm not sure I'm going to get that.” Apply, right? Apply. If you are worried about going to pilot training and washing out, don't be like — go through it again. The system is designed now to really help you get through those programs and those experiences. So don't just, don't rule anything out in your own mind beforeyou know, let somebody else do the ruling out for you. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:04 Thank you for, I think, just expanding on that, because, you know, I think we can always look back, we know we're wiser and older now, right? And understand that. But I think actually, you made it so practical, and actually how you really do live that way. Yeah, thank you for that. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 36:17 Yeah, absolutely. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:18 Oh gosh. Erin, I mean, this has been incredible. Has there been anything in your leadership journey that we haven't talked about that you would really love to share? Because I want to make want to make sure we have that time with you. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 36:27 Yeah, I mean, you really hit some of the highlights, for sure. I just I've been so lucky to be part of so many great teams along the journey, and it's so interesting to see where you learn the biggest leadership lessons from, my opinion, is it hasn't necessarily been from some of those big successes. It's definitely been from the failures along the way. And so I just, I think seeing failure is that opportunity is really important. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:57 We talked about your cadet failure. Was there any other one in your, you know, in your professional career, post-graduation, that you did see? Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 37:04 I mean, I'm sure there were, yeah. I mean, Weapons School itself is a lesson in failing on a you know? One week you're completely failing, the instructors tell you how terrible you're doing, and the next week you're like, crushing it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:19 Sounds like basic training a little bit. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 37:22 A little bit, right? It's definitely emotional. And so, yeah, I just, I think there are lots of examples of “I know I didn't get it exactly right this time, and I'm just going to build on that for next time.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:36 Oh, gosh. Well, thank you. I one of my favorite things about this time with you, Erin, is how you've navigated your career, but you've done it just even being in this room, like your smile is just effervescent. I have loved being in this room with you. Some of the lessons that I've taken away throughout this entire conversation: being transparent, being human. Just, I've seen it in just the work that we do together here at the Association & Foundation. I'm looking forward to seeing it in, you know, in this role that you're now with, with Merlin Lab, but I know you're going to be successful and the people that will get to work with you will just be thrilled, and will grow from that too. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 38:10 Yeah, thanks, Naviere. I love what you're doing with the Long Blue Leadership podcast, with all the Association events. I really think you're helping to connect future leaders and current leaders, and I just think that's so important for what we're doing today. So thank you for what you're doing too. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 38:29 Thank you. Well, I just taken it from some of the lessons you were talking about. Meet them where they are, right? So that's what we're doing. Well, I want to thank you all for joining us today on Long Blue Leadership. You know, Erin Staine-Pyne, Class of '98 — she trained me, so you know I'm going to be good — But you know, the lessons permeate no matter where you are in your leadership career. Be human, be transparent, be present and then remember that your career, I think how you said it kind of on these waves. And so, you know, do what you need to do in the moment. You need to do them. And I think as long as you take care of yourself and take care of your people, you're going to be successful. So thank you again for joining us. Col. Erin Staine-Pyne 39:05 Thank you. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:06 And thank you for joining us on Long Blue Leadership. Until next time, I'm Naviere Walkewicz. KEYWORDS Air Force leadership, military leadership lessons, leadership failure, overcoming failure, accountability in leadership, transparency in leadership, empathy in leadership, leading through crisis, leadership during pandemic, mission versus people balance, building strong teams, mentoring airmen, women military leaders, professional development, resilience in leadership. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
Sometimes leadership is modeled in small ways — like leaving work at 4 p.m. and meaning it. Not because the job's done — but because you're showing your team that life outside of work matters too. SUMMARY In this Long Blue Leadership podcast, Mark Michalek '99, human capital director for the FBI, shares leadership tips for more resilient teams. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK MARK'S TOP LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS 1. Transforming trauma into purpose Turning childhood loss and adversity into a lifelong calling in public safety, service and leadership 2. Post-traumatic growth vs. post-traumatic stress Reframing exposure to trauma as a potential catalyst for growth, resilience and deeper empathy in leaders 3. Whole-person leadership Leading people as complete humans — on duty, off duty, past and present — rather than just as job roles 4. Mental fitness as performance, not weakness Positioning counseling, wellness and psychological support as tools to optimize performance, not signs of failure 5. Modeling the behavior you want to see Leaders leaving at 4 p.m. for family, openly seeing counselors and visibly prioritizing health to give others “permission” to do the same 6. Leading in high-consequence environments Staying the “steady hand to land the plane” during crises like mass casualty events, while empowering experts on the ground 7. From doing the work to leading the work Shifting from frontline case work (violent crime agent) to enterprise-level leadership that shapes culture and systems 8. The power of networks and extended family in uniform Leveraging the Long Blue Line and law enforcement community as a lifelong support, mentorship and resilience network 9. Discipline, recovery and sustainable performance Rest, running and intentional unplugging as essential leadership disciplines — not optional extras 10. Long-view leadership and legacy Seeing careers (military, FBI) as chapters, focusing on integrity, service and excellence, and building organizations your kids would proudly join CHAPTERS 00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction 00:00:30 – Early Life and Father's Suicide 00:02:00 – Finding an Extended Family in Law Enforcement 00:03:00 – Civil Air Patrol, Flying and the Path to USAFA 00:04:15 – Cadet Years, Setbacks and First Responder Leadership 00:07:25 – Choosing Security Forces and First Leadership in Nuclear Convoys 00:09:45 – From Military to FBI: Mental Fitness and Post-Traumatic Growth 00:15:15 – Balancing Family, Leadership Loneliness and Modeling Self-Care 00:19:15 – Leading Through Crisis: Inside the Boulder Attack Response 00:27:30 – Lessons, Legacy and Advice for Future Leaders ABOUT MARK BIO Mark Michalek is a senior leader in the Federal Bureau of Investigation, currently serving as human capital director, a role to which he was appointed by Pam Bondi, former U.S. attorney general. In this capacity, Michalek leads enterprise policy and strategy for human resources, security, internal affairs, compliance and training across the Bureau's 38,000-person global workforce. A 1999 graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy, Michalek previously served as special agent in charge of the FBI's Denver field office, where he oversaw operations throughout Colorado and Wyoming. He is the highest-ranking FBI special agent who is also a military veteran. CONNECT WITH MARK LINKEDIN CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE AT USAFA.ORG/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP AND ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Guest, Mark Machalek '99 | Host, Lt. Col. (ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Col. Naviere Walkewicz 00:11 Well, Mark, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. This is truly an honor, as your classmate, Class of '99. We go back, gosh, 30 years. Mark Michalek 0:18 It is so exciting to see you again and to be here at USAFA; to have this conversation is just priceless. So thank you. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 00:27 Who knew we'd be doing this this many years? Mark Michalek 00:28 That's right. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 00:31 Many may not know you've been in security forces as an active-duty officer, you went into the FBI, and you've really been in this public safety kind of realm. But we're going to dive in with, I think, a moment in time that really shaped you, and just in something I learned about you just recently. So you're 5 years old, and you shared with me that your dad actually, he took his life — death by suicide, right? And it shaped you in a way, when you're thinking about your role in public safety. Do you mind kind of sharing that with us? Mark Michalek 01:00 When I was 5 years old, my dad died by suicide, and I was an only child, and he was my absolute hero. He was a local police officer, so my earliest memories of childhood were wearing his uniform and seeing the squad car and being around officers. And I think that really solidified my future in public safety. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 01:26 Your hero, something that you were exposed to. Tell me, as a 5-year-old, what did that start to look like? Where did you see that show up in, you know, in school, in your sports, like, just in the way you lived? How did, how did you navigate that? Mark Michalek 01:40 So quickly I had an extended family. As I went to the playground and were around town, squad cars would show up,and police officers would come by and, you know, give me a pop or come in and check with me and see how I was doing and see how my mom was doing. And that really laid a foundation for me of a sense of an extended family of the police department being more than just a job in the balance of that. That sense of camaraderie and togetherness with the mission, I think, really shaped my childhood. I became very, very active. And I don't know if that was by design or divine intervention, or what, but it was kind of, you know, the object in motion stays in motion. I was on the run, literally on the run. Loved to run long distance. I quickly got into Civil Air Patrol as soon as I was old enough to do so, and got exposed to the Air Force that way. I got my private pilot's license at 17, I soloed before I got my driver's license and was destined to come to the Academy. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 02:48 Wow. I mean, you were accomplishing so much so quickly. Were you always like that was, did you see others in your life like that? Was your dad that way? Mark Michalek 02:59 It's interesting in retrospect, to see if that was inherited or that was kind of a response to the trauma. I kind of think it was a response. I'm the only person in my family to have moved outside of Flint, Michigan. So folks were very stable and stayed where they were, but I was just constantly moving. You know. As we're talking, I remember I was the youngest Red Cross CPR instructor for the county at 15. I formed a K-9 search-and-rescue unit for police departments to train dogs to help find missing people. And I guess that was just a response to what had happened, and it really planted a seed in me that life is short, and I've had this drive to just leave it all on the field, to keep moving forward, to do more and more, to be able to, you know, focus on public safety and to protect people. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 03:54 So you showed up at USAFA. You knew — you went to Civil Air Patrol and USAFA was in your sights. I remember you as a cadet, and you're always a go-getter as well. Let's talk about a little bit your cadet years, and maybe some of where you saw that evolution of yourself as a leader, but also maybe how it showed up through, you know, go-getting and continually pushing that. Mark Michalek 04:16 My first setback was I wasn't initially accepted. I got a Falcon Foundation scholarship. And it was really a fork-in-the-road decision — “Do you kind of take a year off and go this route and reapply, or do you go another route?” I ended up going, obviously the Falcon Foundation route. Went to Marion Military Institute, and I'm so glad I did, because it set me up to be a cadet and to be in the same class as you. You know, that cadet experience is just such a sensory overload. I wasn't an athlete. I joke that my athletics were just kind of graduating, like I just needed to focus on academics and surviving the day. But then I started to see some kind of opportunities to give back. And I kind of see these themes throughout my life. Myself and two of our classmates formed the cadet first responder team back in '97, I think. And that was really just, again, interest in public safety and a recognition that we needed some more kind of support for cadet-related activities. You know, 24/7 we've got the fire department and EMS here, but to understand the cadet experience and to be able to help out. So my sponsor was a paramedic in Colorado Springs, and a lot of ride time with him. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 05:37 That kind of worked out really well. Mark Michalek 05:39 Again, divine intervention. And so we formed this team. We got our EMT certification on nights, and we're able to help out, and, you know, provide practical experience. If you remember that Class of 2001 was absolutely decimated during Recognition. Remember, we had to have a timeout. There was — we had to have a time to say, “Look, like, we got to, you know, we got to rein this in,” and so we were able to provide a lot of support there. But as I progressed in the Academy, you know, public safety, protecting people, continued to resonate with me, and was one of the reasons I chose behavioral science as a as a track, partly… Col. Naviere Walkewicz 06:19 Not because you didn't love math? Mark Michalek 06:21 Partly because I probably wouldn't have graduated. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 06:24 I was right here — social sciences too. Mark Michalek 06:28 Yeah, you know, you got to go where you're strong, right? But I knew that regardless, we'd be working with people. And then to tie it back to my dad to understand why somebody with a family would take their own life was still something that I was struggling with, and so that really led me to a psychology track. But this drumbeat of public safety really continued to resonate with me, and it's really the main reason that I chose security forces as a career field. I mean, I was medically qualified to fly. Already had a private pilot's license. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 06:59 Right. That was actually what I was gonna ask you, because you had that. Mark Michalek 07:03 Partly because although I have my license, I get horrifically air sick, which is a weird dynamic. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 07:11 And yet you kept pushing yourself. Amazing. Mark Michalek 07:12 Yeah. So if I'm flying, I don't get sick, but if I'm a passenger, then I get sick. So I didn't want that as a career choice for me, but I wanted to lead people where they were. I wanted to lead on the ground in the public safety space, and so that's why I chose security forces. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 07:28 So let's talk about that a little bit. You know, as a security forces officer, you saw many things. I'm certain of it. But was there a moment when you actually had a leadership kind of moment for yourself that you grew — different from when you're a cadet — but in the moment leading some security forces, men and women, was there a moment that you grew that way? Mark Michalek 07:49 Yeah, I think right out of the gate, because as soon as you're a second lieutenant in security forces, you are leading airmen. So my first assignment was at F.E. Warren as a nuclear weapon convoy commander — a team of 40 airmen. So there's no diffusion responsibility, there's nowhere to hide. Like, you are it. And that was the first practical application of leadership for me. Theoretically, and you know, within the Cadet Wing, you're kind of in this microcosm to test some things out and develop who you're going to be as a leader. But once you hit the ground, like, that is it. And to be able to motivate, inspire a team of people in a mission to protect nuclear weapons when there hasn't been a direct attack in our history is difficult, but now I look back as a 23-year-old lieutenant running a nuclear weapon convoy with the world's most important weapon on the open highways is an incredible responsibility. But that's really, I think, where the rubber meets the road, where you start to see what leadership looks like for you. It's not the same for everybody, right? You take bits and pieces of people and in theories and apply really what the moment requires. And in security forces, you really start to see the value of the senior noncommissioned officers, and although you have the authority, they have the reputation and the ability to deliver and so it's more art than science. And so I learned that very quick, right out of the gate. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 09:12 That makes a lot of sense. And something that you said, I think, is really important. You know that that human piece of it, when I think about the pace in which security forces and a lot of our law enforcement roles live in. My question for you might be, how did you help those handle kind of challenging moments or stress, right? You kind of go towards, “Give me more,” take on more, stay busy. Not everyone is wired the same. So did you have airmen that struggled in how they dealt with, you know, things, trauma, etc., and how did you coach or lead them through that? Mark Michalek 09:45 Back then, there really wasn't a lot of support. There really wasn't a recognition. There was still a stigma, both in the military and law enforcement, of “I can't disclose that I'm having a problem. You're going to take my secure clearance, you know, you're going to take my weapon, I'm going to lose my job, I'm going to be embarrassed.” And so at that time, there really wasn't a safety net or an openness to discuss it, so you kind of just dealt with it. So it was more of telegraphing as a leader of what your values were, in hopes that people would kind of, you know, reach out if they needed help. In my time in the FBI, I was able to influence decisions and policies, to be able to be more accommodating, to kind of focus on the whole person and look at our individual followers as a function of performance, as opposed to, you know, you're my responsibility when you're in uniform from 9 to 5 and then you're off duty. You know, life is not my concern as a leader. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:47 You know there are times when you're leading folks and you might have the authority to do some things. Did you start to implement some of those programs or support resources, etc., as an agent, or when you were at a higher-level authority? Mark Michalek 11:00 In FBI, it was at a higher level. So, you know, one of the reasons I left the Air Force after six years, it was a tough decision. And it wasn't running away from something, it was running towards something. And I recognized, you know, when we were company-grade officers, the trajectory is kind of baked in. You will continue to promote, but you will lead people. I wanted to do the work. I didn't want to just lead the people doing the work. I wanted to do the work for myself, and that was one of the reasons I joined the FBI. But going through as a case agent for 13 years on a violent crime squad and being exposed to some of the different things that my dad was exposed to, that others were exposed to, it really laid a foundation as I pursued leadership to be able to have greater influence as I moved up the organization, to set that culture towards mental fitness and resilience and really as a function of optimizing performance. Naviere Walkewicz 11:55 Can you talk about that a little bit more? Tell me what you mean by mental fitness and resilience. Mark Michalek 12:00 So, you know, law enforcement and military both, over the past 20 years, have made significant progress in kind of chipping away at that stigma. We're not where we need to be yet, but we're making really, really good progress. I equate our work to that of an Olympic athlete. It's not just running the race. Olympic athletes are obsessed with their craft, whether it is nutrition, sleep, mental imagery, you know, different types of runs to test different types of muscles and stamina and endurance, but they look at the whole person. So too should we in law enforcement and in the military. So as I got into leadership positions, you kind of block and tackle for your people and let them run, and you set the trajectory of your unit, your squad, your team, your division, your organization, on how they move forward. And so I really push that whole-person concept, that you are a whole person, not just your 9-to-5, but your off duty, your on duty, your past, your present, and all of that needs to be optimized for you to perform the mission. I was very fortunate at our entry level senior executive service position to be at our headquarters and be responsible for — it's called our employee health and performance section, but the clinical staff at the FBI, the psychologists, psychiatrists, doctors, nurses, social workers, to be able to drive that culture and to move from post-traumatic stress to post-traumatic growth. And I needed to experience that as an agent. I needed to be on mass casualty scenes. I needed to be engaged with victims of crime to understand what that looked like, what that felt like, to project what my dad had experienced, but to recognize as humans, we are not wired to see what we are requiring our people to see and do time and time again, and we just require them to go out, to go out, to go out — instead, to provide mental health counseling, which in the FBI, we do, not only for the employee, but for their spouse, which I think is very important, and kids, for that matter, to be able to recognize that, yeah, like, you're not super human. It's OK to not be OK. You're not going to lose your clearance and your gun. People that lose their clearance do so because they compensate in maladaptive ways, whether that's drugs or alcohol or anything like that. And so that's been rewarding to drive that culture, to push the creation of employee assistance, counselors, these are mental health practitioners, chaplains, peers, just to be able to let that culture permeate, and to be able to demonstrate from the top, I'm very open about my dad and how that has shaped my life, to be able to telegraph that, you know, post-traumatic growth is possible, and there are a variety of resources out there now. And there's science and research, and there's just a recognition that the way that we are wired, you can't just keep going 100 miles an hour. You've got to go back to being that Olympic athlete and have a rest in a work and schedule and to be able to push yourself and to relax and just think holistically. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:16 The term itself post-traumatic growth is one that I'm not familiar with. But when you explain it that way, it's very clear. And my question to you might be, how have you for yourself, personally — you know, you're a husband, you're a father, you know, you have seen things, and then you go home and while you do have counseling for family members and for yourselves as well, what does that look like, this post-traumatic growth, when you go home personally. Mark Michalek 15:45 You know, it's really tough to practice what you preach. We're really good about setting a vision for an organization as leaders and taking care of other people, but not taking care of ourselves. And what really flipped the switch for me was reframing the perspective on telegraphing for others to create the permission structure that it's OK, and when they see you do that, then they know it's OK. So for example, in FBI culture, same for the military, like if the boss is in the office, you've got to stay there, or you've got to be there till 5 o'clock. That's fine if you have work to do, but what sense does it make to sit there just because you know your boss is there? So one of the things that I did as I approached senior leadership was I left every day at 4 o'clock, and I made sure they saw me leave. And it's not — I'm going out to go play golf or whatever, but I am going back to be with my family. And in all the assignments I've had — I've moved several times in the FBI — I've made it a point to be home for dinner, and that is the stability for the family, for my girls, for me, and we'll have our dinner and put the kids to bed, and I'll get back and do more work, but being able to telegraph that, you know — I was the special agent in charge of our Denver field office — and as you move into the senior ranks, it's an incredibly lonely job. When you are at the top, there's no way you can talk to you can't gripe to people below you, you know, you've got to have a strong peer network, and you've got to put on the oxygen mask first to be able to help others, and that takes consistent kind of messaging. It takes some consistent actions to be able to show we're putting our money where our mouth is, and then engaging with employee assistance counselors. I talked regularly with ours, and I wanted people to see that, yeah, it's confidential, and there's no shame in that. You would have no problem putting on your squad calendar that you're going to a dentist appointment at 10 o'clock tomorrow. We want to get to a point where that's all “I'm going to go talk to the counselor.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:49 Have you seen the benefits of that, since the agency has made some of these changes? Mark Michalek 17:55 I have, you know, over the past 20 years, the scale, speed and scope of critical incidents is just unimaginable. It's now commonplace for mass shootings. You know, when we were here at the Air Force Academy — Columbine — Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:49 I was just thinking that when you brought that up. Mark Michalek 17:55 And now it's almost every single week. The FBI is very similar to the military in that we are mission focused. You know, our job is to protect the American people and uphold the Constitution and the threat spectrum has exponentially changed. We have to deliver again. There is nowhere to hide. There's no diffusion of responsibility. When I was the special agent in charge for the Denver field office, we were the FBI for Colorado and Wyoming, and whatever happened, we had to deliver. And so we're not afforded the luxury to not respond. And it takes principled decision making in the development of culture to practice and plan and prepare and create that permission structure, because you know what's going to happen, and when it happens, it hits hard, and we've got to deliver. We have to be mission focused and get the job done, but we have to take care of ourselves on the back end, and that takes purposeful decision making by leaders to carve out that time and say, “Nope, we're going to take a timeout.” Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:19 Well, let's talk a little bit about that actual example, but let's talk about the Boulder attack. And you know, what was your role and approach as the leader, you know, in that lonely role as a leader, but to really kind of navigate that. Can you talk about that with us? Mark Michalek 19:37 Unfortunately, the Denver Field Office has had their fair share of critical instances to respond to. So we've got our reps in over the course of time, but that performance just doesn't happen overnight. It takes a lot of work in policy development, in exercises, in pressure testing assumptions to be able to deliver when the moment requires it. The Boulder attack happened on June 1, on a Sunday. And so many things happen at one time. You know, our society has changed where, you know, it's a 24/7, news cycle, and things are happening in real time. You no longer have the built-in delays, because you've got to get to a phone to make a call, and so this is happening, unfolding in front of you in real time, and there's so many things you're responsible for as the leader. I think when it comes to times of crisis, people want stability. They want reassurances. They want a steady hand to land the plane. And that's what my focus was on, that although I have the same emotions, anxiety, stress that is happening, we need to be the steady hand to land the plane. We focused the culture in Denver on direct community impact and supporting partners. I think there's a misperception with the FBI that we have to be the lead. And you know, when the feds come in, they take it over, and, you know, here we go. But that's not the case. We can prop up local law enforcement and to provide the forensic, technical, analytic, tactical, behavioral expertise that they may not have or may be overwhelmed due to the size of the incident. And thankfully, we have a strong relationship with the Boulder Police Department. And so the chief called me personally as he was, I could hear the siren in the background as he was rolling to the scene. So we have plans in place, just like the military when there's a crisis and you send that flare up, and you execute the crisis-management plan, and you work in real time. Everything's moving at 100 miles an hour. Being the leader in that situation, you are getting torn in multiple directions. So you have your employees responding to the scene. You have local law enforcement. You have elected leaders here in Colorado, they want to know what's happening. You have elected leaders in D.C. that want to know what's happening to the point where my phone broke. So many phone calls at once, like, it was fried. And so again, like focusing on — I've got to be the steady drumbeat. I've got to be measured here, to telegraph that we've got this, but also a trust and confidence that your people do have it and to get out of the way. They're the experts. I'll block and tackle for them and let them run, and I telegraphed that in our culture, and let them run, and they did phenomenal. And I focused on what my responsibility was on, was not on being at the scene and seeing what's going on in that, it was engaging with executive leaders to be able to understand what we have, what resources we need, and to be able to deliver now at that time. Given the context of what was happening overseas, we knew this would be an international — of international interest immediately, so it could either go very well and controlled, or it could be absolutely horrible. And so that's another layer of pressure. And when you go back to the fundamentals at the Air Force Academy, of when it matters most, that you buckle your chinstrap on the helmet, and you just get to it, and you immediately go into that mode and distance your emotions and thoughts and anxieties, and put those to the side and focus on the mission at hand. And we knew when we were giving statements in the press that it would be carried internationally, so a different layer of stress as a leader. You know, we had simultaneous operations. We had the scene — the subject had a makeshift flamethrower and threw Molotov cocktails. There was about 15 victims at the time that were transported. Luckily, he was arrested by a Boulder police officer on the scene. But we also had activity in Colorado Springs, where his house was. So generate search warrants and everything for that, and then a mobile command post to assist Boulder PD. But nowadays, you know, we're running leads all over the world, because what we don't know at the macro level is, is this a distraction? Is there another attack happening? Is this part of a pattern that we've got to figure out in very short order? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:20 I'm curious, because I remember the reason why you left active duty, or you transitioned from active duty to the FBI, because you wanted to be in the things doing, the things you find yourself now in, positions where you're leading. How have you grown as a leader yourself? What have you learned about yourself in this? Not being able to be the one doing, but like you said, blocking and tackling? Like, how have you grown yourself? Mark Michalek 24:42 So I was a violent crime agent when I first graduated from Quantico, and I did that for about 12 years, and it was all about impact for me. So I worked bank robbery and armored car robbery scenes. And I remember this. I remember these scenes as we're talking, but I — you go to a chaotic scene like that, with yellow tape and local law enforcement there, and people crying and physical evidence and blood on the ground, and people are looking for somebody to take control. And I remember walking out of my car with that gun and badge on my hip, and you could feel it. “Here comes the FBI.” OK, they've got this and to be able to turn order into chaos, or chaos into order, and create, you know, develop evidence, make a case, prosecute it, provide that sense of closure for victims. That was the juice for me, in that direct community impact. But then I started to feel the calling of leadership from the military, and I started to see that as you move up the ranks, you're able to make more and more impact with a greater group of people. And that became the juice for me. And so in the FBI, it's not as linear as the military, where you, you know, you just move up here, you can kind of go up and down or sideways. But that really motivated me to be able to give back that public safety kind of motivation in larger and larger groups of people. And often when it comes to leadership, whether you're in the military or the FBI, there's kind of this imposter syndrome of like, “Do I really have this?” But you look back and say, “Look at all the things I've been doing, look at all the experiences I've had, all the different places I've led all over the world, and it's turned out just fine. I've got this.” And to move up and up the ranks and to make decisions and lead larger and larger groups of people and learn from those decisions — that was my spark. And then at that point, I just continued down the pipeline. I'm at a point now where I'm operating and leading at the enterprise level, which is impactful, stressful, humbling and rewarding, but that special agent in charge position, that was the ideal position, because you're directly connected with the people. We've got about 500 employees between the two states, and are ingrained in the community to be able just to help more and more people. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:09 So you're driven a bit by adrenaline. We've talked about this. I'm curious what's next? I mean, you're at the enterprise level. Do you stay here? How do you continue to fill your sense of impact that your leading or making a difference for when you've kind of continued to really, you know, rise in that way? Mark Michalek 27:29 At the enterprise level, it's a different perspective of leadership — you're obviously leading through several layers of leaders. So you know what you know with the company grade or the supervisory special agent level, you kind of keep the train on the tracks and keep the trains running on time. The enterprise perspective, then you're laying down enough track for that train to keep moving forward. And so it takes a little bit of a shift. I'm enjoying my time right now. It's really impactful to see the subtle things. Change culture, people reaching out when they need help, direct community impact. Where you weren't directly involved in that, but you laid a foundation for that to grow. You know, that said, like, there's only one FBI director, so there's really no other opportunities. It's just continuing to give back at this level, but whether it's military or FBI, it's, you know, the similarities are leading in high-consequence environments where the stakes are high and the margin for error is small, and I think there's opportunities for that to continue to lead in those environments outside of government as well. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:50 So I think about some of the things you shared about, you know, why you've made certain decisions and leading through different levels. I'm curious about how leadership has shown up in your house as a dad and as a husband, thinking about what you experience with your dad, how do you navigate that in your home life? Mark Michalek 29:09 You know, it's interesting as you grow older and you gain experience and maturity and in a world view, and you really start to see the forest through the trees, and leadership manifests in different ways, but as you get married and have kids, then you start to appreciate what your employees are experiencing, stresses and joys as well. It forces you to be disciplined and to focus on what your priorities are. And it's tough when you're in a high-consequence environment to say, “Yep, families first — can't do that.” Well, there's a mass shooting, like, you're going to have to go. So there has to be a little bit of flexibility. But all things equal, focusing on the family is really the sunlight, you know that helps us grow, and it shifts your mind towards giving back. Like, in preparing the future generations, which just happened in the blink of an eye for us— as I'm driving in, we go past the buff where we were commissioned. I'm like, my god, 27 years have passed. So now the focus shifts on providing for the family and thinking, “What kind of world do I want my girls to live in?” And it equates to the FBI, because I want the FBI to be an organization that agents and analysts and professional support staff folks not only serve for 20 years, but that my daughters want to join, and they want to do 20 years. So a pendulum shift more towards not just delivering results for today, but continuing to grow on what the future looks like. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:43 Pulling that a little bit further, what do you hope that your girls see in you as a leader? You know, the way that your dad was your hero and you looked up to him? What do you what are you hoping your girls see in you the traits? Mark Michalek 30:56 You know, it's funny. They're 9 now, so I think they could care less. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:01 Maybe what they don't want to see you doing. Mark Michalek 31:02 I'm just kidding. But, you know, in the future, I want them to be able to see the value of integrity, of service and of excellence, in this recognition that life is so precious and short, and I want them to leave it all on the field. And you know when their day comes to be able to say, “You know what I did, I lived a full life. I was supported, loved…” You know, whatever it is they want to get into, it doesn't have to be law enforcement or anything like — I just want them to excel and enjoy themselves, but just recognize how phenomenal life is and how short it is, and you just got to find your spark and just go for it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:50 That's amazing. And I think about your comment earlier about we're really good at helping others know what they should be doing, but maybe not the best at taking our own advice. How are you doing that and taking care of yourself today? Mark Michalek 32:01 So for me, it's running. Everybody's got something that they need to unplug, decompress from my time, from high school through the Academy, military and now it's running. It gets a little slower as we get older. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 32:17 Note to self, do not plan to go running with Mark. Got it. Mark Michalek 32:21 But it just — everybody needs time to unplug and take off all the masks. FBI agent, Air Force member, husband, parent, friend. You just need to take the mask off and you just need to breathe. And that's what does it for me, being outside and breathing. And one of my assignments was in our San Diego field office, which was spectacular. But being in water was another area that I really found energized me and, you know, and made me whole. But, yeah, running is what does it now. And I make it a point that no matter how busy I am, I've got to run at least once a week. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:05 OK, what's your distance that you're running to give yourself this time to unplug in? Mark Michalek 33:09 Now, not fast. Now, this isn't a sprint; it's more of a marathon, but I haven't done any marathons. That's a little too much for me. I'm in the in the 5- to 8-mile range. That seems to be the sweet spot. And then here in Colorado, it's being out in nature, but in D.C., to be able to run the monuments every single time — and I've done it hundreds of times — but every time you go past those monuments, and you put your hand on the Washington Monument, or you go up to the Lincoln Memorial, and you stand where Dr. Martin Luther King stood and you see that perspective, I just get this sense of history and appreciate the decisions that were made and the consequential events that happened over time in the stability of institutions, in that you know leaders way above us stood the test of time, were resilient and were able to navigate unthinkable challenges, then so too should we, and I find a sense of, I guess, comfort or shared experience, although that's a whole different level for those level of leaders, but that really helps fuel me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:17 I can actually see that. Just picture you doing that. You know, I want to ask you, what is something you're doing every day to be better at “fill in the blank,” your leadership, your craft? What's something you're doing every day? Mark Michalek 34:32 I think it's being disciplined and focused, definitely running and being physical, but balancing the time with family and friends in work, it sometimes — it comes across as selfish. I think particularly people who are service oriented consider that selfish. But again, like they say, when you're on the plane, you've got to put on your oxygen mask first before you can help others. So that's not selfish. You're telegraphing to others to take care of themselves. When I run, I listen to presidential biographies. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 35:05 Really, I was going to ask you, what's in your ear? Now — I'm just kidding. Mark Michalek 35:09 I don't know if it's the cadence of the — but again, to understand decisions from the past, and when you know our country was at pivotal points, how we responded, that helps fulfill me. I think, you know, becoming a student of leadership, from being a cadet to now, and finding different ways and understanding whether it's private sector, other public sector entities, how they navigate things, because it's very, very similar when it comes to, you know, motivating people, managing programs, delivering results, you know, grappling with emerging tech, new different types of threats. So I do a lot of reading in that space, to be able to be a more kind of holistic leader and not have on horse blinders, just specific to government. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:00 Has there been one lately that's really stuck with you, or that you've listened to while you're running, or that you read that has continued to evolve the way you're thinking — you approach leadership? Mark Michalek 36:11 I think it's — John Dickerson has a book called The Hardest Job in the World, and it's about the presidency, and it's not one individual president, it across party lines and in decades. But it's more of those themes that when you think back, they didn't have the technology we did. But like these fundamental themes are the same of, how do you motivate people? How do you respond to the operating environment? How do you handle complex challenges? Again, like I just felt a sense of reassurance or support and understanding on things, you know, through the course of time that we may not have all the answers, but collectively, people are the potential energy of the organizations, and they're going to deliver. They're going to hit it out of the park. You just have to support them. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:58 Well, we have viewers and listeners that kind of span from, you know, young cadet hopefuls, cadets, you know, graduates and family members. What's something that, if you could tell yourself years ago, maybe as a cadet, that you should say you should be thinking about this now, because in 27 years from now, it's gonna matter? What would you share? Mark Michalek 37:18 You know, I think, first of all, I wish I would have had more fun. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 37:25 I think I've seen you smile more now. Mark Michalek 37:28 I mean, it's just such a pressure cooker, and you don't want to let anybody down, and you don't know what the future holds. And, you know, “I've got to do this, I gotta do that. I gotta…” It's just breathe a little bit and enjoy it. Like, you don't recognize you're really in a pivotal point in your life. So that, I think that's one thing. I think the other for cadets and prospective cadets to recognize is, like, the FBI, like, the military is temporary. You're going to retire, probably young. You know, you do 20 years in the way our systems are set up, in the way the world is now. Rarely are you just going to go fishing at age 40 or 50. You know, you may have a second act, you may have a third act, and so you've got to really have the long view in mind, and it's OK not to have all the answers. You know, life will throw you some curve balls here and there. You've got to do what fulfills you at the time and doors will open. But you just got to have that faith that things are going to work out. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 38:35 Did you have that, you think, back then, or you, just looking back on it now, recognize that? Mark Michalek 38:41 I don't know. I think partially I had it then. Those Academy years are really, really tough. And like, we were chatting before, like, well, you know, once you leave, that was it. I had no intention of coming back. And it's kind of like a boomerang. Distance and time makes the heart grow fonder, and then you recognize, you know, what you've learned here and how special this place was. And I think back, I think staying busy and active is what got me through. There's nothing worse than that first holiday break in December, right when you go back to your friends and they're at local schools, and you see all the stuff they're doing, and then you've got to come back. I mean, that is such a — the comeback piece. Do you have the, you know, intestinal fortitude to come back? You know, that was really, really tough, but now I see that the Academy, you know, left an indelible mark on me and changed the trajectory of my life. And I think back, you know, like I said, I'm the only person in my family to have ever left Michigan, and what life would have been, you know… You think the Earth is flat until get out and see there's a whole big world out there and a ton of opportunities. And as I've gotten in this role, particularly as a special agent in charge in Denver, I interact more with military leaders here in Colorado and Wyoming, and start to reconnect with people and see that this Long Blue Line, it spans everything. We are everywhere across the world. But you have no idea what good stuff lies ahead if you just stay the course, and your life will be changed in fundamentally spectacular ways. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:29 You couldn't end it better than that. I guess I want to just ask you this final question. Is there anything we didn't talk about today that you would like to make sure you make mention of? Mark Michalek 40:34 No, but let me give one piece of advice for future cadets and cadets. And this — I think I read this in a book before I came but this is what helped me survive. Go to bed every night at 10 o'clock. You know, there's folks that try to do the all-nighters. I didn't. Every night, I went to bed at 10 o'clock and dealt with the consequences on the back end. And I think that ability to recharge and rest served me well. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:00 Do you still go to bed at 10 o'clock now? Mark Michalek 41:02 I try. Now it's more like 9 or 8:30 as I've gotten older, but I think you've got to recharge and sleep. And that's one of the things the Academy teaches you, is you are not going to get everything done. You're not going to muscle your way through this. You can try. You're going to end up tired. But this is a team sport. Life is a team sport. You've got to do the best you can and get up and do it again the next day. But you are not you're just not going to get it all done. So you got to take care of yourself. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 41:30 Well, that really does kind of bring it home. Does that this time that you've been kind of experiencing in your life through the active-duty service, through the FBI, you know, you said it yourself, you kind of look back at, you know, maybe why your dad made some decisions. Do you feel like you've gotten to a point where you've had closure now? Mark Michalek 41:49 Yes and no. I think I've gotten to a point where I've got all the answers I can but I'm at peace with what had happened. And I just, I try to, you know, leverage the time I have with my wife and girls to be present and to be a good role model and just to be able to support them and help them thrive. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:12 Well, I think you've been an incredible role model. You've been an incredible friend through all these years. This conversation has been one that's been really rooted and just understanding who you are, where you're at, and then how to navigate from that place. And I think that's why you've been one of the reasons why you've been just so successful, and why you're able to lead so many people through so many different crises. So I thank you for being on Long Blue Leadership. This has been a true treat for me, but again, I know that all of our listeners and our viewers have enjoyed this as well. Mark Michalek 42:39 Oh, thank you, Naviere, I really appreciate the opportunity. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:43 As I think back on our conversation today, you know, there are several things that stand out. I think one thread that we really need to think about is taking care of ourselves and others, knowing where we're at, thinking about mental resilience and really post traumatic growth, being able to move forward and seek help when you need it. I think part of our conversation today as leaders is not everything is easy, and certainly you have a network that supports you, and so one of the ways that my classmate Mark has really highlighted to me is lean into your network, you know, utilize the resources that are there for you, and then you can not only help yourself, but you can help others as well. So it's been an incredible conversation, one that I look forward to listening to again and sharing with others as well. KEYWORDS Public safety leadership, law enforcement leadership, military leadership, FBI leadership, crisis leadership, trauma-informed leadership, mental resilience, post-traumatic growth, whole-person leadership, high-consequence environments, leading under pressure, servant leadership, organizational culture change, resilience culture, mental fitness for first responders, leader self-care, work-life balance for leaders, empowering frontline teams, interagency collaboration, leadership in crisis response. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
A simple but powerful leadership lesson: show up — whether in loss, transition or everyday life. SUMMARY Jessica Whitney '10 reminds us that we often know what to do — the difference is actually doing it. Small acts of showing up can mean everything. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK JESSICA'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP LESSONS Here are 10 leadership lessons from this conversation: 1. Align your life with your values, not your plan Whitney thought she'd do 20 years in the U.S. Air Force, but family and faith became higher priorities than her original career plan. Leadership lesson: Be willing to pivot when reality and your values diverge, even if it means leaving a prestigious path. 2. Redefine success beyond titles and rank She struggled after leaving the Air Force because her identity was tied to “academy grad” and “officer.” Leadership lesson: Anchor your worth in who you are and how you impact people daily, not in your job title. 3. Use mentors to unlock “freedom to choose” A single honest conversation with her mentor gave Whitney “freedom” to imagine different possibilities. Leadership lesson: Seek out mentors who model alternative paths and will tell you the truth about tradeoffs. 4. Make decisions with the best information you have now Whitney references the Gen. George Patton quote about a good plan now vs. a perfect plan later, and emphasizes moving forward one step at a time. Leadership lesson: Don't wait for total certainty. Clarify what you know, what you don't control, then act. 5. Integrity = keeping and honoring your word From her transformational leadership class: Keep your word when you can. When you can't, honor it: Notify early, reset expectations and clean up the impact. Leadership lesson: Integrity isn't perfection; it's proactive ownership. This builds trust and reduces stress for everyone. 6. Name the stories that secretly run you (“what's undefined runs you”) Whitney recognized long-standing internal stories like “I don't belong” from moving often as a Navy brat. Leadership lesson: Identify your limiting narratives (e.g., “I can't disappoint people,” “I don't belong”) so they stop unconsciously driving your behavior. 7. Create a compelling future and work backwards She describes standing in the future you want (for yourself or an organization) and asking, “If we were already there, how did we get here?” Leadership lesson: Lead by designing the future state (culture, behaviors, outcomes), then reverse-engineer today's actions. 8. Show up for people — especially in their storms After her brother-in-law's suicide, the support from church and Air Force community showed her the power of “just showing up.” Leadership lesson: You rarely know what others are carrying. Leadership is often simply being present, unasked, when it matters. 9. Align daily actions with stated values Whitney feels the most stress when her behavior and values (family, faith, health, service) are misaligned. Leadership lesson: Use misalignment (stress, guilt, burnout) as a signal to recalibrate how you spend time, energy and money. 10. Invest in small, consistent habits (1% better) Whitney references “atomic habits” — reading regularly, moving her body, cooking healthy meals and doing “one more rep.” Leadership lesson: Long-term leadership impact comes from small, repeatable behaviors, not dramatic one-time efforts CHAPTERS 00:00:05 – Introduction & Transition Theme Whitney is welcomed to Long Blue Leadership. Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99, frames the episode around transitioning out of the military, and Whitney shares her background as part of a dual-military couple and early family life. 00:02:02 – Mentorship, Freedom & First Thoughts of Leaving Whitney describes reaching out to her mentor about transitioning to the reserves. That conversation gives her “freedom” to imagine a different life that prioritizes family and values over a 20-year active-duty career. 00:06:39 – Academy Lessons, Courage & Decision-Making Under Uncertainty Col. Walkwicz digs into Whitney's use of the word “freedom.” Whitney connects her decision-making and leap of faith to leadership lessons from the Academy — facing unknowns, focusing on what she can control, and acting without a perfect plan. 00:10:13 – Growing Up Military & Redefining Identity Beyond Rank Whitney shares her deep military heritage as a Navy brat and descendant of generations of service. She explains the identity shock of leaving active duty and having to redefine success beyond titles like “officer” and “academy grad.” 00:13:26 – Values, Overwhelm & Redefining Success in Daily Life Whitney talks about aligning actions with values: quiet time, family, health and rest. She contrasts the nonstop pace of active duty with her new season as a stay-at-home mom and reservist, and how she now defines success. 00:17:19 – Loss, Suicide, Grief & the Power of Community Whitney shares the story of losing her brother-in-law to suicide in January 2020. She reflects on hidden struggles, the “buying bananas in the grocery store” moment of invisible grief, and the profound impact of church and Air Force community support. 00:23:12 – Learning to “Show Up” for Others Col. Walkewicz asks where Whitney learned to show up so intentionally. Whitney recalls community support during her dad's deployments, meals after her first child's birth, and a commander welcoming her back from maternity leave — illustrating the difference between knowing you should show up and actually doing it. 00:26:11 – Serving Beyond the Uniform: Church, Family & Cadet Morale Whitney explains what service looks like now: leading a 120-woman Bible study and serving on the USAFA Class of 2010 Cadet Morale Endowment board, which funds morale events for top cadet squadrons. She highlights meaningful leadership without a visible rank. 00:29:20 – Transformational Leadership & Redefining Integrity Whitney shares lessons from a transformational leadership course she took (and later taught): integrity means both keeping and honoring your word. She gives practical examples (calling when you'll be late, managing deadlines early) and uses a bicycle-wheel analogy to show how broken commitments make everything bumpier. 00:32:07 – “What's Undefined Runs You”: Naming Limiting Stories Whitney introduces the idea that unexamined stories (e.g., “I don't belong,” “I can't disappoint people”) quietly drive behavior. She shares her own “I don't belong” narrative from moving often as a Navy kid and how she consciously claims, “I belong here,” to lead more authentically. 00:36:50 – Creating a Future & Leading from It Whitney explains how leaders can “stand” in a desired future for their organization — one of trust, transparency and camaraderie — and then work backward to identify the actions and changes needed today to get there. 00:38:33 – Advice to Young Jess: Vision, Risk & Trusting the Journey Asked what she'd tell her younger self, Whitney emphasizes clarifying what will matter at age 80, aligning life with that long-term view, being less risk-averse, and trusting God with unexpected pivots and new paths. 00:38:43 – Daily Habits, 1% Better & Long-Term Growth Whitney shares the small daily practices that make her “better”: reading and podcasts, surrounding herself with uplifting people, and health-oriented habits like walking and “one more rep.” She connects this to the concept of atomic habits and incremental growth. 00:40:52 – Closing: Character, Showing Up & Living Your Values Col. Walkewicz closes by summarizing Whitney's key themes: leadership as character and presence, not having all the answers; simply showing up; and honoring integrity even amid uncertainty. She thanks Whitney for her ongoing service and impact. 00:42:05 – Production Note & Recording Date Ted Robertson notes that this Long Blue Leadership conversation was recorded on Wednesday, Nov. 19, 2025. ABOUT JESSICA BIO Jessica Whitney '10 is a U.S. Air Force veteran, leadership coach and conflict resolution facilitator who helps executives and emerging leaders design purposeful futures and take aligned action. Drawing on more than a decade of military leadership experience navigating communication, conflict and high-stress environments, she supports individuals and teams in overcoming limiting beliefs, clarifying priorities and building systems that foster confident decision-making. Whitney specializes in one-on-one leadership coaching and workplace mediation, guiding productive conversations that transform tension into trust and strengthen organizational culture. She is also a wife, mother of four and advocate for intentional living, dedicating her work to empowering leaders to align their identities and results with their vision for the future. CONNECT WITH JESSICA LINKEDIN | SIMPLIFIED MOTHERHOOD CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE AT USAFA.ORG/LONGBLUELEADERSHIP AND ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS: Guest, Jessica Whitney '10 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:04 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad you're here. Jessica Whitney 0:08 Thanks so much for having me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:04 You know, one of the things we love to do, and we're going to have some time really exploring a lot of the things that you've encountered in your journey, but we want to jump right into a place that is both relevant to our listeners, which is transitioning out of the military, but you did so in a way that was a little bit different, and maybe not on, like, the timeline of planning. Jessica Whitney 0:28 I'm a 2010 grad, and so is my husband, Tom, and he was a nuclear missile operator, and I was a finance officer on active duty, and we started having kids in 2013 which was just amazing. But being a dual military couple, we had kind of been through a lot of separation and time apart, which is standard for military couples. And so in 2013, I kind of — I just had my first son, and I was back at work, and I was just feeling this torn feeling, because I always thought I would stay in the Air Force the full 20 years. I loved serving. I loved being in the military, and having gone to the Academy — just all the dreams and the hopes that came with that, and being able to lead and serve my airmen. But I was feeling this yearning and desire to kind of do something else, and that's kind of where the seed was planted at that time. And I reached out to one of my mentors, who was actually the coach of the lacrosse team at the Academy when I was there my freshman year. She's actually one of your classmates, I think. She's Anne Marie Hornby. She's from Class of '99, and I just reached out on Facebook, and I was like, “I know, I haven't talked in a while, but I just wanted to check in and ask, you know, like, why did you transition to the Reserve?” Because she was always, you know, she was a teacher at the Academy. Like, she was always high performing. Like, I knew she was an amazing officer. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:02 She was high performing as a cadet too, by the way. Jessica Whitney 2:05 I'm sure she was. Just everything she did, I could tell she did it with excellence and love, and I just really respected her opinion. So I reached out and asked her just like, “Hey, can you just tell me, like, why did you decide to separate?” I'm just kind of feeling this tornness, and I'm feeling like maybe my calling might be something else than serving in the military, which, as an 18-year-old, you kind of go to the Academy thinking, “OK, I'm gonna have four years at the Academy, and then I'm gonna serve for five years, or 12 years, or whatever.” Like, you've got your whole life planned out, and then all of a sudden there's this, you know, pivot and decision that you have to make of like, “OK, wait, life is throwing some things at me that I didn't expect.” And I just wanted to know her opinion. And she just said such a sweet thing that resonated with me, that she kind of felt that same call of, “I wanted to spend more time with my kids. I wanted to be able to focus more on my husband and my family.” And while it was scary, she said, I know she knew that motherhood, or like becoming a stay-at-home mom and transitioning to the Reserve wouldn't necessarily feed all of her desires of competition and performing well and using her strengths to the utmost, maybe that she could — she also knew that it aligned with what was important to her and her family. And each family is different, and each career is different. So it really gave me freedom to say, “OK, I know successful women in the military who have families. I know successful women outside of the military who have families.” And you know, we choose to do the stay-at-home mom career, which was different for me, because my mom worked full time when I was growing up. So anyway, it gave me that freedom to kind of like pivot and think, “OK, what could the possibility be to like, create this life of being there for my family?” So fast forward, 2016 I was teaching ROTC at Colorado State University, which was a dream job, by the way, I absolutely love that job. And Tom, my husband, at that point, had already separated from the Air Force and was pursuing his career in professional golf. He was traveling to PGA Latin America in both the fall and spring of 2016, I had to go TDY to field training for seven weeks that summer. And I think we counted up being apart for over 40 weeks that year. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:35 Majority of the year. Jessica Whitney 4:36 The majority of the year. Yeah, and I did not really see staying in the Air Force, it getting any better, as far as, you know, having more time with my family and my husband. And I just felt disconnected, my heart wasn't in it anymore and serving, and I still had that little, you know, seed that had been planted when I talked to Wibs about, you know, like, “Why did you go into the Reserve?” And I talked to a couple other reservists who just loved the balance of being able to still serve in uniform while also being able to maybe have a civilian career, or just be able to have some more flexibility to spend more time and focus on their families during a season of life. And so in 2016 I'm sitting there my desk, like, “I just want to go home and take a nap. I'm so tired.” I had two kids at this time. I was like, “Oh my gosh, I'm just exhausted.” But I was like, “OK, I think —" you know, my husband and I prayed about it, we were just like, “OK, I think it's time to just take this leap of faith, kind of walk away from what we've known.” So now both of us would be out of the Air Force and pivot to something else, and like, step into that faith decision that for us, that the Lord's going to provide, and that we wanted to build and focus on the things that were really important to us. So showing that if family faith are the most important things, how was I using my time? How was I using my energy? How are we using our money? Did it reflect what was actually important? And so we made that decision, and then I got out in 2017 and separated. And honestly, it was the best decision ever. Now, I struggled a ton with my identity afterwards, because I just didn't realize that I really kind of was wrapped up in this idea, like, “Oh, I'm an Air Force officer, I'm an Academy grad,” and those things are, like, very focused on what you do. And so I had to kind of redefine what success was to me as far as just impacting the people around me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 6:41 I want to just interject here for a moment, because you said a couple of things that I really want to pull on before we get too far, because I think it really does impact some of our listeners and some of the experiences that they've had. So the first one, when you talked about that transition, and there was a key word you use, and you use the word “freedom,” — “It gave me a freedom to kind of things a little differently” after having a conversation with your mentor, and then, you know, praying about it with your husband. And so I want to just explore that a little bit, because did you feel like that freedom, or just the ability to kind of navigate that did touch on some of the things you really valued that you learned at the Academy, as far as decision making, and kind of, you know, taking this leap of faith and navigating what's not always known. And, you know, I don't want to say it's safe, but maybe it's not the safest path, right? So, like, can you just touch on that a little bit more? Because I think that is something that, you know, people question that, kind of, in that decision-making place. Jessica Whitney 7:41 Yeah, I definitely think that in that decision, when I say, you know, we had this, I had this freedom to make a choice, we could, kind of, I could kind of lean back onto my time at the Academy of we were given so many challenges at the Academy and things that were unknown and things outside of our control, and you just learn to have an approach where you cannot problem-solve everything, but just like you can say, “OK, here's the variables I know that are true, here are the things that are outside of my control,” which just help you make clear decisions, and then just stepping into the fact that any decision, any action, is just taking one step at a time, and you don't have to have the whole future planned out. And in fact, in the military, you rarely do, right? I always kind of joke with my husband with, like, the quotes, but you know, like Gen. Patton, like “A good plan executed now is better than a perfect plan next week,” right? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:40 Next week. Thankful I was able to contribute a little. Jessica Whitney 8:43 Good job. Good job. Yes. And so just, but the fact that, like, just make — do what's best with the information you have now, and take action and don't just sit on it. And I think, but, yeah, that gave me that freedom. Because, yeah, it was a big step and leap of faith, because a lot of people think the military is, well, of course, it is a risky job, and especially risky in the sense of our physical harm and a lot of the challenges that we face. But in many ways, it's something we knew, know, and it's something that's very reliable, and it's something that we had, my husband and I had both lived for, you know, 11 years between the Academy and now. So it was a big leap of faith, as far as, you know, transitioning to the unknown, but we were able to kind of lean on just, “Hey, it's OK that we don't know everything. We can trust the skills that we gained at the Academy and trust the skills that we gain just in life to move forward.” And even with my husband, I'm like, “If this golf thing doesn't work out —" which, by the way, he's been a professional golfer for 10-plus years now, so it's worked out. I fully believe that we are capable of learning anything and doing anything if we choose to set our minds to it, and like we're gonna be OK, like, because of what we learned at the Academy and skills that we garnered. Like, we're gonna be OK moving forward. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:13 I love that. And you started to talk about having to redefine yourself, and before we get into that, I think it's interesting, because you grew up as a dependent of — your dad served in the Navy, right? So we like to use the term, you know, lovingly, I was an Air Force brat. You're a Navy brat, so your identity going into the Academy was already one of a military dependent, right? So let's talk about this redefining your identity, because I'm sure that it was much more than, you know, just on the surface level, it seems really simple, right, going from this, but I'm still serving, so it's not really that different, but I'm sure it was. Jessica Whitney 10:49 Yeah, it was a big transition. So as you mentioned, I was a Navy brat. My dad served for 30 years, and I come from a proud heritage of military service. My grandfather, before that, served in the Navy, he joined straight from the Philippines, and my great-grandfather actually served in the Philippine army and was in the Bataan Death March. So I've got a lot of history in the military and a lot of pride and service to my country. And my dad was always, you know, a hero to me and someone that I looked up to, as far as he was always, not the only serving in the military, but he would be a leader of, like my brother's Boy Scout troop, right, and volunteer with this, and he'd be active in the Rotary Club. And my mom worked full time and led my Girl Scout troop, and whenever he was gone to Bahrain for 16 months, you know, she held down the fort with three kids. Like, I just looked up to my parents and how hard working they were, and just how they were always serving something bigger than themselves and balancing family and all that. I still don't know how they do it. And we have four kids now. I'm like, how did you guys do all of that? But when I transitioned out of the Reserve, I just remember sitting one time, like, I was doing my quiet time in the morning, and I was reading my Bible. And at least for me, I had to remind myself my value is not in what I do. It's not in awards I get. My value is one, in Christ, and then two, in the actions that I take each and every day. And it's impacting and positively impacting the people that are around you right now. And honestly, it's a struggle every day, even today. I've been a stay-at-home mom for eight years now, and it's something I think we all struggle with — of like, what is our purpose in life? What is the reason — why we do the things we do? And each person really has to, like, struggle with that. So I had to, I think when I was really struggling with my identity, I had to redefine, like, OK, my worth and value is not in the title that I have or the rank that I have or anything like that. It is loving on the people around me really well and serving to the best of my ability with excellence in all we do right where I am, and that's the most important thing. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:25 How did you get to that point of defining that? I mean, is it kind of in lockstep with your views of yourself as a leader? Or would you say it's just where you kind of settled into in your moments of quiet and through your prayer of, “This is how I define my impact and my —" you know, what that looks like? Jessica Whitney 13:48 I think a big chunk of it was just continuous practice, in a way, each and every day, reminding myself, one, is what success looks like, because I think that as people who are highly motivated and being leader, you're like, you've got your to do list, you've got your things you want to do. I've got, like, a to do list, like, this long, you know? And yeah, and I would just tell myself, like, “I've got 25 things to do. I only did six of them.” Like, there was no way I was going to do 25 things in the first place, you know. So I think that as a leader in general, you need to be realistic about what you can actually accomplish each and every day, whether you're a stay-at-home mom or you're a leader in the workplace, and actually be able to, like, you know, time block and say, like, “These are the most important things. These are my priorities.” And probably just over, it's probably just over time of like, every morning, like, "OK, the most important things, like, got my quiet time in. I'm spending time with the kids. I went for a walk, I moved my body, and we're eating healthy meals. I remember when I was working full time, I would kind of be jealous of those people who, like, had time to cook a full meal, and, like, spend an hour maybe making dinner and, you know, have quiet time. I always felt when I was on active duty working full time, it was just like, get up early in the morning, go to daycare, drop off, work all day. You know, work out during lunch. Never have a break, and then run home, make dinner really fast, and, like, get the kids in bed, and there was no break, and there was no rest. And so I remember yearning for that when I was on active duty. And so when I first became a stay-at-home mom, and when I first transitioned out of the Air Force. I really had to remind myself, like, OK, what are my values? What is most important here, and are my actions aligned with that? And if they are, then that's success right there. And so I had to remind myself that every day, like I get time to make healthy meals for my family. I have time to go to the gym five days a week if I want to. I have time to put a, you know, like, say yes to things like this. I've got time to go speak at the Veterans Day ceremony at my kids school. Like, I don't have to feel bad about missing appointments for my missing meetings at work for appointments for my kids. I don't have to choose that all the time. Now, serving in the Reserve, you know, I still miss weekends where the kids have tournaments and games and stuff, but that's OK, like it there's, there's a balance in there. I hate the word balance, because I don't think you ever really achieve that. But I think that as leaders, you know, we have to — like, when you're feeling the most stressed, or when I felt the most stressed, it's when my actions and behaviors just haven't lined up with my values and what's most important to me. “So as leaders in your organization, if you know you guys are — your stated values, are, you know, XYZ, but you're over here doing ABC, then there's going to be disconnect in the organization.” So I think at any time, you know, when there's alignment there, then you're going to feel alignment for you as a person, as a leader. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:19 I'd like to dig into those values a little bit, because we did talk about how you've experienced deep personal loss, right, in your family, and you know, how have the values, or maybe just your life experiences, helped you navigate that? Because, you know, I think people experience grief on all levels, and if you don't mind sharing your story a little bit, I think it just will allow others to understand how you were able to navigate through that and maybe continue to navigate through that today. Jessica Whitney 17:51 Yeah, thanks for the opportunity to share this part of my story. So my husband's brother, Bob, was a 2008 grad, and unfortunately, we lost him to suicide in January of 2020. It was really just a complete shock when it did happen. It seemed like it came on so quickly. Bob was just always someone that when you walk into a room, he was always smiling. He was the light in the room. He was such a great husband and father. He was super active in his church and his family. And so a couple things that I took away from all of that was just one, we just never know what people are going through, what storms they are, like, they might seem perfect on the outside, and really, they're having struggles with maybe imposter syndrome or just doubt, or they're just having all sorts of issues, right? So you just never know. I remember standing in the grocery store after he passed away, and I'm like, staring at these bananas that I'm supposed to be buying for eight kids because we were like, up with them, you know, after the funeral. And I'm just thinking, like, no one around me knows that this just happened in my life, and I'm just standing here doing this mundane thing of buying bananas. And I think it, just, as a leader makes you realize that people are walking through storms all over around you, and if you're not currently in a storm, most likely you will be. After he passed away too, we were just blown away by the community support that he received, both from his church as well as from the Air Force family, but I know that it takes time to have good community. It takes — you have to invest time. And all of us, we're just so busy, but these relationships, these are the most important things that we can work on and develop the people around us. It kind of showed up for me in my unit, we had an airman who lost a spouse. He had three young kids at home, and his wife passed away. And I was like, we just need to show up for him, like, be at his doorstep. And we're in the Reserve. We don't live close together. We're not all stationed by the base. So, you know, it's like someone needs to go to his house, bring him a card, tell him we love and care for him as our Air Force family. And you know, he even commented afterwards, he was like, “You know what, you guys—” this Air Force family that he only saw one weekend a month. He's like, “You guys are my lifeline.” But I know that, for me, I really knew that we needed to show up, and that's because I knew what it felt like when people showed up at my door, when we needed it, you know? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:51 Wow. I mean, I think that's really — I mean, to navigate that. And loss, I think you know, is as a journey, that it's still a life journey, right? And so, and I think the fact that you were able to lean in and you knew and expressed it in a way that you know, showing up for those and then seeing it happen actually in your unit, and being able to translate that. Have you always known, I guess, about showing up? Have you seen that in other leaders in your career or in your life, what showing up looks like? How that really defined you? Because I'm curious if you know that was all just developed in seeing that in that loss journey, or if it was something you've seen over time and then witnessed it? Jessica Whitney 21:37 I guess I would say, if I'm really looking back, especially because I'm a Navy brat, right? We did live in places all over the country, and, yeah, we did have a good support system. Like my friends, my family, had people that would show up. Like when my dad was deployed, they would show up at the house when I was in high school. You know, we had such a tight knit community there, but I am thinking, like the first time I really felt that was with our church community. After our first son was born, people would show up at our house, and I didn't even know them, and they were bringing food to us. I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is so sweet.” But just, like, that power of community, and then even with leaders that I've had in the past, like my first squadron commander that I can remember, she, like, the first day I got back again from maternity leave, she had, like, just brought, like, a little vase of flowers and put it on my desk, and just like a welcome back, but like an acknowledgement too. Of you know, it's hard to come back after, right? You know, your first child, or any child, like after you have a baby, and then you come back to work, but just, you know, welcoming and showing up. And I think that this, I don't know exactly where it stems from, but, yeah, actually taking the time to do it, because a lot of us know we should do it, but do we actually pause long enough to do it? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:11 That's a really great — I think that particular nugget, right? We know what we should be doing, but do we actually take the steps to do it? I think, is actually an important lesson right there. And, you know, would you say that throughout your experiences, and I'm really curious, because I think, you know, you talk about being a stay-at-home mom, but I'm sure your schedule is quite — you said you get six out of your 25 things done. Can you talk about how you're serving outside of the uniform? Because I think that that's really important as well. Service doesn't stop just because we take the uniform off. And I mean, it sounds like you're serving in your church and your community. You know, what does service look like to you now, through that leadership lens, maybe when you're not wearing a rank all the time? Jessica Whitney 23:54 I have really looked at the areas of my life that I want to be active in, like, what's important to me? And in the church, I participate in the women's Bible study, and I'm one of the leaders there and kind of help lead. We have 120 women that come every Wednesday and I'm one of the leaders that, you know, kind of facilitates the overall Bible study. And I've just loved stepping into that role and using my leadership skills to encourage people and show up. And then the other board I kind of serve on is the Class of 2010 Endowment for Cadet Morale. And so our class, with our funds that we, you know, had raised throughout the years, decided to set up a morale fund. So the top squadron for each semester actually receives a $5,000 check from our endowment, and they can use it on whatever they want. And I just remember, like those cadets, those high schoolers that are transitioning to be future leaders of the Air Force, they are amazing. I am impressed every time I interact with them. And the Academy is hard, and I just want to offer that little bit of light, you know, to encourage them. Like, “Hey, you're on a good path. Like, just, just continue on. And here's a little bonus, bonus check.” You know, literally, we love that part. But yeah, so I just love to step into service where I can. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:23 I'm glad that you shared that, because I do think it's easy for us to downplay our role and impact in the hats that we wear and the ways that we serve, and so I really appreciate you sharing that, because I think that's an important part of our stories you talked about with me before you know, redefining yourself. I want to go back to that because I think it has to do with being authentic and who you are. And so as you've navigated this new season in your life where you're still serving in these multiple hats and raising your family, supporting your husband, you know, where was that seed planted from, being an authentic leader, kind of, you know, being — leading with integrity, you know, maybe saying, “I can't do this, but I can do this.” Can you talk a little bit about that? Jessica Whitney 26:07 Yeah, absolutely. I took an amazing class at the Academy, a leadership class that a friend of mine, again from the lacrosse team, recommended me, and she's like, “Jess, this class — it's called transformational leadership. It's way more than that. I really think you need to take this course.” And she was so right, because there are so many things that I carry over from that, from that course into my leadership, and then just my everyday life. And it was taught by Capt. Kari Granger, who's now Kari Zeller, and she's an Academy grad as well. And when I got to my ROTC detachment in 2016, so eight years later, this gentleman came into the office, and he's like, “Hey, my daughter teaches this leadership course called being a leader and the effective exercise of leadership. I really want to teach it at Colorado State, but I'm looking for someone to partner with, maybe through the detachment. Like, do you think anybody would want to co-lead this class with me?” And his name was Karl Zeller, and I was like, “I think I took this class when I was at the Academy, and it was amazing, and I would love to lead this class with you.” And so not only did I take the class at the Academy, I also taught it two semesters while at Colorado State, we kind of made it an elective class, and we had several cadets and cadre go through the class, which was just an amazing experience. Because I think most of us know that when we have to teach other people something, we learn it even better than when we go through it ourselves. So the kind of the main takeaways I had were one kind of heard the definition of integrity. We all know the Air Force's definition of doing what you know the right thing when no one's watching, when nobody's looking, but she kind of defined it more as both keeping your word and honoring your word. So we all know that keeping your word that's easy, but what is honoring your word mean? And her framework kind of laid out, honoring your word is, as soon as you realize you're not going to keep your word, notifying the person that involves saying when you are going to keep your word and then cleaning up any mess that you made by not doing it. So a quick example would be, you know, you're running late to a doctor's appointment. You get in the car, you realize, “Oh my gosh, I'm going to be seven minutes late to the appointment.” Instead of, like, white knuckling your steering wheel to make it in time, you feel guilty when you get there. You immediately call the office. You tell them, “Hey, I'm going to be late to the appointment. I'm going to get there seven minutes late. And, you know, I realized that this has an impact on you like, you know, let me know if I need to reschedule." Whatever it is, right? Most people are so shocked by this ownership that they are so much more gracious to you in whatever the circumstances are. And on top of that, you're not stressed. You're not, you know, white knuckling. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:22 So when it really takes you nine minutes to get there? Yeah,. Jessica Whitney 29:26 So hopefully overestimate. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:28 Seven minutes and 40… Like, round down. Jessica Whitney 29:29 My husband calls that, like, Jess math. I'm like, yeah, well, it's fine. It's fine. But, like, if you think about in the workplace, right, like, you have an assignment, you have something your boss gave you, it's due Friday. You realize Monday, OK, there's no way I'm going to do this. I can either stress about it, work super late hours and, you know, like cause all this extra stress, and then maybe still not accomplish and get the work done, and then show up to my boss on Friday and say, “OK, sorry, boss, I couldn't get it done.” Or on Monday, you bring up the conversation, you swallow your pride, and you say, “These are my challenges.” You manage expectations, and you're you guys together. Can you know, either reassign, get help or bump the deadline, whatever it is, but now you're no longer living in this like, fear of like, I'm going to be late or whatever, like you're able to perform better. And so they, in the class, they talked about how, with integrity, everything works. And they talk about the idea of like a bicycle wheel, right? There's spokes on a bicycle wheel, and if all the spokes are intact, it's going to run very smoothly, right? That's keeping your word and honoring your word, you're performing really well. Well, when you're not honoring and those folks and you're not keeping your word, or you're not honoring your word, some of those books are missing, so it's just going to be a little bit bumpier. And things are going to get done, but they're not going to get done as well as they would if you were honoring your word. So that's a big takeaway Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:56 That's a great analogy. Wow. Yeah. Jessica Whitney 30:58 So I apply that, I feel like in everything, because I think a lot of us will get in the way of ourselves, of just like, “Oh, I don't want to tell them and be late, or I don't want to, I don't know, disappoint someone, or I know there's expectations with my husband, but I'm just going to ask forgiveness instead of, you know, for permission,” or whatever it is with whoever. So anyway, with integrity, nothing works. And so I kind of take that away of, like, OK, what's expected of me? OK, I'm going to try to meet that. And that kind of lines up too with just this idea of what's your values, right? So if I say I'm a person that values fitness, do my actions line up with that. That's part of my word. OK, so I've said, I've said, “OK, I'm a fitness person and I want to be healthy.” Well, am I going to the gym? Am I eating healthy? Am I drinking too much? Am I — whatever? Do my actions align with that? No, OK, I'm not in integrity. It's not bad or good. It's just not working as well. Not going to accomplish my goals if I'm not in alignment with the other two things. And I'll just touch on them quickly, and then we can explore more if you want. But the other one is what's undefined runs you, which is basically means — Col. Naviere Walkewicz 32:06 Wait, say that one more time. Jessica Whitney 32:09 What's undefined runs you. So it's this idea of all of us have stories most likely from our childhood that we make up about ourselves. So like, I don't belong. I can't disappoint people. I have to get things done the right time. And we can probably all look back in our past and say, “I remember I got in trouble one time when my grandpa was at the house and I was late getting in, and he said, you know, you're disappointing your mom. You're not listening to her.” And then, all of a sudden, you make this life sentence for yourself of I can't disappoint my mom. I can't disappoint so now you have this filter, this mindset that all of your decisions and actions flow through that says I can't disappoint others. Well, of course, that's going to limit what you can and can't do, because it's filtering out half of, you know, a quarter of action, anything that could any — Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:03 Risk or grit. Jessica Whitney 33:05 Exactly. And so what the undefined run you means you're never going to be able to completely get rid of these filters and things that you have, but you can name them and define them. So you say, OK, like for me, I was a Navy brat. I moved around a lot, and so I often felt like I didn't belong where I was. Like, I always felt like people already had relationships, all that stuff. So I do, I know that I will walk into a room like a Bible study, and in my mind, think, “Man, like, people just don't really connect with them. Like, maybe they just don't like me.” I'm like, “No, I've been here for five years. I belong here. I am a part of this group.” But it's this, you know, filter that I'm running things through, of I don't belong. I need to name that, remove it, and then be like, OK, I belong here. I am part of this group. Naviere Walkewicz 33:54 So what have you named it? And have you removed it? Jessica Whitney 33:59 I think it's more about just the awareness. So it's like that, we as leaders have to be aware of the things that are getting in our own way of being an effective leader. And so I — this is a big one for me, like the I don't belong. So even recently, I walked into a new group of women and I said, “I belong here. I am a part of this community.” It's like at my son's school, and I can contribute as me. I don't have to hold back, or, you know, be a certain way. I can be myself. I can be my authentic self and lean into this. And it was very freeing, because in the past, I have gone in and just kind of like sat kind of back, and I don't want to be intimidating, or I don't want to take over the conversation, or just whatever it is, I'm not being myself, and I have to tell myself, like, “I belong here. I can be myself if they don't accept me for me, that's OK,” you know. But I can't hold back just because I'm trying to fit in and just because I'm trying to be risk averse, or, you know, conflict averse, or something like that. So, yeah, just be yourself, right? But so what's undefined runs you. So as leaders, we need to identify what's holding us back, what's running our lives, right? And just name it. They have a phrase: “Name it to tame it.” So once you can put a name on it, then that often helps you change your actions, you know? And then the last one is just, I think leaders, you are a leader. If you are impacting something around you, the organization, the people around you, they wouldn't be who they are without your influence. So in that framework, we talked about creating a future as leaders. So you've got a current organization, and maybe there's, you know, like no one likes to hang out, there's gossip, there's toxic leadership, there's bad communication, no transparency. This is a very imaginary organization, of course. But you acknowledge, like, OK, this is what's going on. Let's create a future. What does the future look like that we actually want, with all the actions and things like, OK, we have transparency. We like to hang out. There's, you know, Squadron picnics. We go to PT and we all encourage and work hard. We handle conflict in a healthy way. OK, so if we're standing in that future and looking back, how did we get here? So the course is a lot about, like the whole ends, ways, means that the Air Force talks about, but just how can you stand in the future and look back and say, “How did I get to that spot?” And then that's how, you know, what's the next action you can take in this current spot? Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:49 Wow. Jess, it's almost like you read my mind, because there's two questions I actually want to ask you, and one of them is about looking back. So why don't we start with that one? First, you know, what is something you would tell yourself, young Jess back then that you could be doing then to help you be a better leader now? And is it actually what you just talked about, or would it be something else you would add? Jessica Whitney 37:11 No, I think it would be just that. Like, no, where do you want to be even, like, let's say, in five years, or what's going to be most important to you in 80 years? Right when you're 80, when you look back on your life like, what's going to really matter? And start aligning your life with that. Now, some of that takes time, but standing in that future of how you want it to feel, how it looks, how you want your organization to feel. Like, start — write it down, put it on a vision board, talk about it with someone. And then I would say to myself, like, and then start working towards it. I think when I was younger, I was, you know, I was comfortable with where I was at. I was afraid to take risk. I was afraid to do things different than what I always thought I would do. And you know, for me, the Lord really worked in it, in my heart of just saying, Just trust me. Just trust me with that next step you have the direction you kind of want to go, and I'm going to take you on a journey that you know you're probably never going to be able to predict, kind of like, what I talked about at the beginning, like I pivoted, like it was completely different than what I want, and just be OK with that. That's the beauty of life is, you know, pivoting with what's in front of you, but just taking that next, that next step. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 38:32 I love that. And then what is something that you do every day, just to be better and better is really you define better, but what is something you're doing every day. Jessica Whitney 38:42 I love the books, like The Power of Habit and Atomic Habits and yeah, they're so good in just this idea of your daily actions are, what are, who you are, really like, how you show up in the world, because you can only control what you're doing today. Can't control what you're doing tomorrow or what you did in the past, and so for me, one, I do love to read. So I'm always reading books, listening to podcasts and all that kind of stuff. So I think, as a leader, just, like, surround yourself with lots of different opinions, read different things and just encourage my brain. Two, I love to surround myself with people that encourage me and a community that's going to help me challenge myself to improve. And then three, like those daily actions of self-improvement, of like, OK, how can I be just like, 1% better than I was yesterday, whether that be choosing to eat a little healthier today or going on a 30-minute walk, or, you know, when you're lifting weights like, Can I do five pounds more on this? Like, one or one more rep, right? Like, one more. But I do love that analogy, and weightlifting like, OK, I didn't realize that, you know, like, I can do one more rep this week than I could last but three months ago, you know, I've made huge improvement from three months ago. But you don't realize until after the fact. So I think, you know, being a high achiever all my life, it's like, you want to see these big, like, changes and, you know, immediately, but oftentimes it's in these, like, small moments of like, “How can I just be better today?” Healthwise, community-wise. Who can I love on today? How can I, you know, for me, like being in alignment with, you know, what I think God has for my life, being in prayer and focusing on the people around me. You know, that seems like a lot of things. That's why I've got 25 things on my list, , Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:44 But you get a few of them done And that's OK, because you just gotta do one. Jessica Whitney Exactly, you just gotta do one. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:51 Well, I can just share how much, you know, you really just like leaned in and shared your love and wisdom with all of us. And I think that's one of the things I really appreciated about this today: how you showed up for us and shared your authentic self, and so I just want to say thank you. You know, as we wrap up today's conversation, Jess, what's really stood out to me is that we talked about leadership is just about as much about character, but it's really also about, like, showing up and who you are. You know, you show us just that strong leaders don't just show up and need to have all the answers. They actually just need to show up, right? And just, you know, live their values, live with integrity. And I love how you said, you know, honor your integrity even when life is uncertain or changing. So, you know, I think your transition out of active duty could have been a moment of doubt and struggle, but you turned it into an opportunity to serve, and your family has continued to thrive. So thank you for all that you're doing in your community, and for all of you who need to hear this journey, for those that have also gone or going through a transition, this is a conversation you certainly don't want to miss. So again, thank you to Jess Whitney, Class of 2010. It's been a pleasure having you on Long Blue Leadership. Jessica Whitney 42:05 Thanks again. Outro 42:05 This Long Blue Leadership conversation was recorded Wednesday, Nov., 19, 2025. KEYWORDS Leadership, authentic leadership, transformational leadership, values-based leadership, character-driven leadership, servant leadership, integrity, honoring your word, keeping your word, accountability, responsibility, vulnerability in leadership, decision-making under uncertainty, courage, leading through change, creating a future, vision casting, aligning actions with values, purpose-driven leadership, redefining success, identity as a leader, mentoring, mentorship, developing others, showing up for your people, empathy, compassion, community building, resilience, leading through grief, supporting mental health, trust, transparency, culture change, organizational alignment, handling conflict, managing expectations, setting priorities, work-life integration for leaders, modeling behavior, investing in relationships, daily leadership habits, incremental improvement, 1% better mindset, self-awareness, naming limiting beliefs, “what's undefined runs you”, authenticity, influence without rank, service beyond the uniform, leading in family and community, Long Blue Leadership. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Joel “Thor” Neeb '99 explains this simple framework. “Yes” builds experience. “No” protects focus and time. SUMMARY In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Joel Neeb '99 explains this simple framework. Yes builds experience. No protects focus and time. Leadership is knowing when to shift. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK JOEL'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS 1. Time is your most finite — and most misused — resource. Facing mortality created instant clarity: Stop letting others waste your time. You must actively protect time to focus on what matters most. 2. Regret comes from inaction — not failure. Neeb didn't regret failures — he regretted not trying things that were uncomfortable. Leadership growth = bias toward action in uncertainty. 3. Imposter syndrome + growth mindset = a leadership superpower — “I don't belong here… yet” paired with effort fuels growth. Elite teams are full of people quietly thinking the same thing — and pushing forward anyway. 4. Reinvention is not optional — it's continuous. You don't “transition” to a new role — you start over from scratch. The best leaders willingly become beginners again. 5. Comfort is the enemy of growth. When things become easy, growth stops. Leaders must intentionally seek discomfort, not avoid it. 6. Elite teams + inspiring mission = peak human performance The most meaningful work comes from: Being on a team where you feel you must earn your place and pursuing a mission bigger than yourself. This combination drives purpose and performance. 7. Say yes early in life, say no later in life. Under 35: Say yes to everything → build capability through exposure. Over 35: Say no to almost everything that doesn't align with your goals → protect focus. Leadership maturity = ruthless prioritization. 8. The future belongs to those who disrupt themselves first. AI (and any disruption) rewards those who move early. “Stay slightly ahead of the rate of change” = competitive advantage. 9. AI should be a thought partner in everything; not a replacement but an accelerator. Leaders who integrate AI into daily workflows will move exponentially faster. 10. Think in five-year transformations, not three-month wins. People overestimate short-term output and underestimate long-term transformation. Leadership requires a bold long-term vision and daily actions from that vision. CHAPTERS 00:00:00 — Introduction: From Fighter Pilot to CEO-Level Leadership 00:00:49 — Stage 4 Cancer Diagnosis: The Moment That Changed Everything 00:03:48 — Clarity on Time, Regret, and What Truly Matters 00:07:02 — Reinventing Yourself: Leaving the Military & Starting Over 00:10:04 — Growth Mindset, Imposter Syndrome & Elite Teams 00:13:38 — Learning the Language of Business 00:17:14 — AI Is Disrupting Everything: What Leaders Must Know 00:22:46 — Using AI as a Thought Partner to Move Faster 00:24:58 — Say Yes Early, Say No Later: Mastering Your Time 00:35:06 — Big Goals, Long-Term Thinking & Final Leadership Lessons 00:37:22 — Joel's Big Audacious Goal: Leading Through AI Disruption 00:42:47 — Using AI to Learn Faster (Even While Working Out) 00:48:14 — Closing Thoughts and Key Takeaways ABOUT JOEL BIO Joel "Thor" Neeb '99 is a recognized business leader in the software-as-a-service (SAAS) industry. He most recently served as vice president of execution and transformation at VMware, where he led a cultural and operating model transformation for the 40,000-person company as well as helped launch VMware's AI roadmap and strategy. Prior to VMware, he served as chief executive officer at Afterburner Inc., where he led more than 100 elite professionals, including former fighter pilots, Navy SEALs, and Army Rangers, in helping global organizations achieve breakthrough performance. Neeb is a former United States Air Force F-15 mission commander. He was the tactical leader of 300 of the most senior combat pilots in the U.S. Air Force and oversaw the execution of a $150-million-per-year flight program. CONNECT WITH JOEL LINKEDIN | 8x8 CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS: Guest, Joel "Thor" Neeb '99 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:11 Joel, my friend, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Joel Neeb 0:13 Thank you very much. So glad to chat with you. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:15 Oh gosh. Well, we are excited for this. It's going to be just a filled conversation of incredible insights, and you have so much to share. And I think what's really special about this is how we're going to touch into AI, because it is relevant, and it's everywhere now, but I actually want to dial it back first to a very specific moment in time, and it's probably an area that has really transformed your life, right? So you went through stage 4 cancer. I mean, not many people can say that they have gone through that and survived it, and I think it also really impacted others in your family. Can you just share a little bit about your story? Joel Neeb 0:49 Yeah, so back in 2010 I was flying, on top of the world. I was going through the interview process for the Air Force Thunderbirds, and I found out, out of nowhere, that I had a stage 4 cancer diagnosis. So within just a couple of weeks, I went from feeling like I was at the peak of good health to now being told that I had about 18 months to live and a 15% chance to live five years. And those would be a pretty gruesome five years if I did make it that far. And so that was the new reality that I had to contend with. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 1:19 I can't even imagine that. I mean, just… Was there some kind of indication, like, you went in and you were checked up and they found this? I mean, it just wow, just boom. Joel Neeb 1:30 You know, it's funny. I actually have to credit the flying role with most likely diagnosing and solving this for me early. Because when I would fly and I'd have my G suit on my abdomen, it would inflate against me when I pulled Gs, and it was a pain that I was experienced on the right side of my abdomen that right around my appendix. On a scale of one to 10, it was like a two. So nothing big, but big enough that when I went and saw the flight surgeon for my annual physical, I mentioned it, and I said, I'm sure it's nothing, but they did the right thing, and did some quick tests and ultrasound on that area and some MRI work, and they were able to very quickly determine that a big tumor grown in that spot. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:09 Wow. Well, I guess right there, just a lesson off the bat is listen to your body. You know your body, and if something doesn't feel right, seem right, you know, say something and get it checked out. Joel Neeb 2:18 That's exactly right. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:19 Oh, my goodness. OK, so you got that diagnosis. You're sitting there with that information. How do you process that? What is the conversation with your wife, you know, what's the next step when you're given some kind of timeline like that? Joel Neeb 2:34 Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I would have thought having gone through like fighter pilot training and even the Air Force Academy, and, you know, all the things that build resilience in life, that I would have felt more prepared for that moment. In other words, that I would have felt more prepared than the average individual. But I did not. I felt, I felt very much like I was in a catastrophe from which I couldn't see how to get through the day to day activities. I was a zombie around the house and it really relied on my wife and my family stepping in to help me. And so for a good couple months, it's was just kind of inconsolable and, you know, I always like to say it was, I would wake up and go through my day very, very tired because I didn't sleep the night before. And then I go to bed staring at the ceiling fan spinning, trying to figure out, you know, any options that I would have to extend my life for my kids to remember me a little bit. I had a 1- and a 3-year-old and so I went through life for a couple of months just a zombie and doing very poorly. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:38 So what changed in that couple of months that, I guess, changed the trajectory of how you looked at things, or how you approached her, or what happened? Joel Neeb 3:48 Yeah, you know, there's a great quote that I repeat a lot, which I think makes a lot of sense, which is “the dying have the most to teach us about life.” And what it really means is that when you're faced with these types of struggles, that all of a sudden, whether you're 80 or 33 like I was, you get a certain amount of clarity right in that moment and it's good for eliminating the rest of the noise in your life and identifying what's most important and what should have been most important all along. And that comes through and is in the forefront is it was fascinating to me that the moment I got the diagnosis, immediately I was mad at myself for spending any extra time at work, like it was like a light switch in my head went off and said, like, “You shouldn't have stayed that extra hour at work just to watch the clock turn. You were done with your job there.” I had a boss at the time that I was a huge fan of and he was a clock watcher, and wanted just to be in there to fill up time. And my mind immediately went to “now my finite resource is time, and I've been wasting it.” And I remember vowing that I'll never waste my time again, and I've been very disciplined against letting anybody steal time from me from that point forward; that was one of the key things I took away. And then looking back in my life, there were things I regretted, things that I celebrated and that I was proud of, and also considered what I would do differently if I was given a second chance. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:05 So, you know, you wrote a book called Survivor's Obligation. I'm curious about this journey, though, because obviously you beat it 15 years later, you're here. So, you know, you beat the odds of the 18 months. What was that like when you still had to provide for your family? You know, you were still working like, what was that journey like? Joel Neeb 5:25 Yeah, first of all, I have to credit the Air Force with showing up in a huge way. At that time, I was watching other people in the civilian sector who were undergoing cancer struggles, and they had a much more difficult time than I did. The Air Force had stepped in and was making meals around the clock for my family. I didn't have to show up to work. I you know, they afforded me every opportunity to get better and I really credit the Air Force family with getting me through that period of time, in ways I just certainly would not have been able to get through on my own, and in terms of, like how I looked at my life as I was thinking about the things I was proud of and the things I regretted. The things that I was proud of I was a little surprised by, and the things I regretted I was surprised by. I didn't regret my failures, of which there were many. I didn't regret them, because what I actually regretted were those times that I didn't try, where there's times where I didn't make the effort into doing something new that was a little bit scary, that would have put me outside of my comfort zone, and maybe would have challenged my ego a little bit. And now the end of my life was here, and I'd never have a chance to do anything else. You know, my story was complete. And I said, you know, really angry at that. Had I gotten a second chance, I would do things very differently. I love being a fighter pilot, but I would have preferred it to have been a chapter in my life, not the entire book. I would have tried to go to the business world and done all these things, and when I did get that second chance, and basically, God called my bluff and said, “All right, let's see if you actually follow through with this.” Then, of course, I had to hold myself accountable to living differently in that next chapter. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:02 So that's what you're doing now. You're living in this next chapter. And so, I mean, I think there's a transition out of the military. Obviously, you retired as a lieutenant colonel. And so talk us a little bit about in this moment of what you're going to do if given a second chance. Let's talk about what some of those things that you took a chance on, maybe in the business world first. Joel Neeb 7:24 Sure. So our mutual friend, Kovacic, he says, “I'm in the middle of my Texas Longhorn MBA right now. It's amazing. It's just down the street from you.” He knew — he was following my cancer struggle closely. And he said, “Look, you're two years into this journey. Who knows what the future holds?” But I talked to him about wanting to be in the business sector and trying something new. And he said, “If you're serious about that, you should join the MBA program.” And so that's what I did. I went and joined the MBA program and had a blast being the dumbest guy in the room, by far, in business school. At the same time, it almost reminded me of being a fighter pilot again, or at least the early days of being a fighter pilot, because it was a little bit of a combination of terror and exhilaration, which is really what I loved about being a fighter pilot. That first time you go upside down by yourself and in pilot training and you prove to yourself you can do it, you're a little bit terrified, but fully exhilarated, and knowing that this is exactly what you should be doing. At the same time, I had that same sentiment as I'm sitting in business school classes, as I'm trying to keep up with the conversation there, and you say, “Well, you know that's so different from flying a plane, how are you getting the same joy out of it?” And it's really because where I landed with, you know, what did I value most in life. It came down to the times when I was on an elite team with an inspiring mission, an elite team, meaning I felt like I didn't deserve that spot there. And the little secret was, everybody on the elite team didn't feel like they deserve that spot there. But boy, are they going to try to earn it. And then that inspiring mission that we're pursuing, whether it was our time at the Air Force Academy, I always felt like I didn't deserve to be there. I felt like that was an incredibly elite team with an inspiring mission. Felt the same way about being a fighter pilot. Had a healthy dose of imposter syndrome going through all of this, but I've learned to believe that that's a bit of a superpower, in a sense, because if you have imposter syndrome coupled with a growth mindset, which means I don't belong here today, but I can sure earn the right if I try hard. I think that helps us to really realize the full potential of our lives. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 9:26 Really well said. And I think that actually kind of helps us see how you're able to make that transition. I want to go back to the fact, — first off, Kope is amazing. I love that he, you know — it talks about the Long Blue Line and our networks from the Air Force Academy. They really are for life. And I think, you know, you just, kind of just showed that you applied and you participated in this MBA program when you're in your mid-30s. Then can you talk about that a little bit? I think there's an interest in, “Oh, if I didn't do this in my 20s, it's too late.” Can you talk about that transition in, you know, your mid-30s, and do you think that was the right time? Can people do it later in their life, etc? Joel Neeb 10:04 So I would say you certainly can do it at any point in life. You can recreate yourself at any point. A lot of — gonna go totally off topic, but a lot of longevity science is saying that the first person to live to be 150 is alive today, meaning we're all going to see a lot more healthy years hopefully in our lives than ever before. So that should mean that all of us should pursue multiple chapters, and there's certainly not a point in life where we're done reinventing ourselves. But the key is the word “reinventing.” And I was at a point in my career where, at 33 years old, I was very, very comfortable flying. I was very, very comfortable doing air shows and flybys and leading missions and signing autographs. And so my identity was a lot of ego and not a lot of growth, meaning it felt good to be told how great I was at doing a certain skill set, but it wasn't that hard to do anymore. It becomes rote, and I wasn't growing at this point. In order to go into the business world, I had to completely reinvent myself. And I like to tell people that are transitioning out of the military, as difficult as it was to do the first thing, whether that's be a fighter pilot or an intel officer, or how you had to reinvent yourself at 23 years old — that's just as challenging as it's going to be. You have to sign up again for the B course, as we call it, as fighter pilots. The thing that introduces you to being a fighter pilot and realize that you're devoting that much effort to reinvent yourself. And people would push back and say, “Yeah, but you've already led in these environments. You have all of these things that should carry over. Wouldn't it be easier for you just to make a transition and less of that initiation energy that's required to start this new thing?” The answer is no, you literally have to start it over, as if you're 25 years old. You got to eat a lot of humble pie and realize you're not special in this environment. But the good news is, you can become special very quickly if you're willing to reinvent yourself now — you bring perspective that nobody else can carry. Nobody else knows how to navigate high stakes, life-or-death environments like we've learned in the military. Nobody shows up with the processes that we've learned through checklists and through cultural training, all the things that maybe we didn't even aware that we're seeing. As soon as you see the opposite in the business world and you realize, well, we don't have that great of a culture here. We had a great one in the military. That's a huge resource that you can bring into that environment, but only after you've completely reinvented yourself and translated your skill set into something that's meaningful for that business setting. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:28 So Joel, that's fascinating, because what you're saying is you're almost stripping yourself of all these experiences to really open up your aperture for what's new. And I'm curious if this was a way you came into that? Sid you go in with your eyes wide open with that plan, or did you learn this about yourself? Joel Neeb 12:47 I came into it arrogantly. I went into these conversations thinking, “Wait till they see how much I have to offer. I've been in very complex scenarios. I've led my way out of them. I have all these awards for being a good leader and a good instructor, and so just wait until they see what I've got to offer.” And that's why business school helped me out a lot, because in a sandbox setting that really didn't have consequences, I got to participate in conversations and learn very quickly I didn't know what they were talking about and that they were — they had an understanding around business already that I didn't have. I didn't understand the language, and I needed to really reeducate myself to become ready in this moment. And so there were moments in that period where I would have done very differently in approaching that next transition, had I known how far I had to go to really having something to offer the business sector. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 13:38 Was there a moment during that time when you were getting your MBA that, in a way that cancer startled you as a life-or-death situation, and you changed your you know — “If I'm given a second chance.” Was there a moment in the business, you know, getting your MBA where you like, really, like, linked into like, this is what I'm going to be doing. It was so clear to you the next move in this, in this journey. Joel Neeb 14:04 Yeah, I say that. I mean, there's one that stands out that really showed how little I understood the business world. So they're talking about pipeline in this conversation at my MBA school, and they said, “You know, we need to improve pipeline. We're working on getting better pipeline for our needs.” And I'm listening to this thinking, “What are they talking about? Is this like an oil pipeline? Is this pipe plumbing? What do they mean?” And for those in the business sector, of course, you understand. They're talking about a sales pipeline. A sales pipeline is a sales funnel that shows that the leads that turns into the sales and the conversion rate and all the things that that, of course, I know intimately well. Now, at that point, it showed me that there's an entire language I just haven't been exposed to, because I'd been talking about missiles and G forces and airplanes for so long that it didn't matter how much experience I was bringing to the table. There was a language I didn't understand. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:50 I think that is really, really thoughtful in how you showed that, because then it helped you probably in navigating when you're leading, you know, other teams that have different experiences coming to the table. So when you learn that language, and I want to talk a little bit about, you know, CEO of Afterburner, let's just talk about your role in the civilian sector, your multiple roles, I'd love for you to share a couple of stories where you've grown as a leader and where you've continued to learn things about yourself in that space. Joel Neeb 15:22 Yeah, so at Afterburner, what we end up doing at Afterburner, more often than not, was leading in keynotes, doing workshops for training, and what we would show them is how you can leverage the things that we learned in the military on the elite teams that we participated in, whether that's Green Beret, fighter pilot, Navy SEAL — we hired all those backgrounds, and, of course, look for teams that had a business degree on top of that. What we ended up doing was getting on stage in front of these folks and sometimes talking to 10,000 people. So I've done presentations in front of 10,000 people in my past. And what I was surprised by — thinking about the learning opportunities and where the growth came from — is that even after having done 3,000 briefings, you know, in a fighter pilot setting, and getting in front of the red flag team in Nellis and doing a presentation there, I would be behind the scenes at some of these huge presentations, and I would get incredible stage fright, I guess is the only way to say it. Butterflies. I would feel like I was going to pass out. And the reason I share this is because I was frustrated that it didn't translate better to this new thing that I was looking to do with public speaking. Now I'm talking for an hour, and I had to be engaging and comical at times, and, you know, bringing the audience into it. I say that because, once again, I was finding that that combination of terror and exhilaration and proving to myself that I could do it, and I had a new place that I needed to grow into for that now, I've done this enough times where my heart rate doesn't go up a beat when I do this at this point, but that's after doing thousands of presentations and I think the key takeaway for me was our growth is never over with, and it's growth that really feels good, and so leaning into those areas of discomfort has been something that's been really important to me my entire life, particularly after cancer. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:06 So what is growing you now? What is new for you that you are pursuing in your personal growth and development? Joel Neeb 17:14 Yeah, so it was new for me now is what's new for society, this next era with AI. AI is going to disrupt every one of our lives. And just as aggressively as AI disrupted my life with cancer, or, excuse me, as cancer disrupted my life, or even becoming a fighter pilot or joining business school disrupted my life, we see the same thing take place on a personal and professional level because of just how powerful this new technology is. And if you're sitting there wondering, “It hallucinates still, and I don't really buy it, and we'll see where this ends up,” I'm here to tell you, as somebody who's at the bleeding edge of AI that's going to transform every single thing we do in very good ways, but also disrupt the way you think you add value today, and the way you think that you know we should participate on teams right now. And so that's it's going to disrupt everything. And so I'm looking to constantly reinvent myself in the context of this next era. And I'm also looking to lead our 2,400-person company at 8x8 on that same journey, so that we can disrupt ourselves before we're disrupted. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:14 So what does that look like right now? Share something maybe that is on the leading edge of that, you know, that forefront of being disruptive before you're disrupted in your organization. Joel Neeb 18:27 Yeah, so for us, it's making this new technology as accessible as possible so that we can break down the barriers for using it and realizing that, much like in the '90s, we went from only a small technical portion of the company that was using computers, then expanded to, of course, everyone in the company is using a computer on every desk. But that wasn't always like that in the late '80s and early '90s; that was just reserved for a very technical portion of the group. Now that expanded. Of course, everyone's on the net. You wouldn't dream of trying to get a job without being internet savvy and having computer skills. We're going to see the same thing take place with AI and so, and I don't just mean using AI. I mean using AI to code, using AI to build things, and it's not just going to be reserved for that technical component of the company anymore. And so what that looks like for us: We conduct a weekly session where we talk about the use cases from the previous week on a personal and a professional level. Why is that important? Because now we're breaking down that barrier. So last week, I'll give you an example. We had somebody whose father passed a couple months ago, and this person had he lives in the UK. He's from Africa. His father had never met his son, so this person's grandson, his father's grandson, he'd never met. And by using AI at his funeral, he was able to take their images and create a moment where they came together and hugged and picked up the grandson and played this really touching video for the rest of the people there to share in that moment that never really happened, of course, but was able to celebrate this person's life and that connection through the grandson. And it was just a really I mean, they were people that were getting emotional, talking about it, listening to the story. And then we have somebody else say, I had my basement flood, and I took pictures of it, and I used AI to imagine how we would have to renovate it and build it back better. And somebody else says I successfully used AI to combat the tax increase on my house, because I came up with good comparables around the area and a good way to beat it. By the way, it's a really good one to use, if you have… Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:32 A mental note right there. Joel Neeb 20:33 Exactly. So we're lowering the barriers on a personal level. So then when I tell you on a professional level, here are my expectations for how you'll bring AI to the table to accelerate the things you're already doing, the teams are ready to do that, and that's been a really important aspect of this journey. Naviere Walkewicz 20:50 Is it important for an organization to already have a culture that is open to — I think what you know is you're going to get a bunch of different perspectives. You're going to get a, you know, maybe thinking outside the box that you wouldn't have thought of. So would you say that the organization was ready for that? Or have you had to create that culture along the way? Joel Neeb 21:11 Yeah, I'd say, you know, change is hard. Nobody likes change. We like being through change. And so one of the things that growth provides an opportunity to change for the better, but it's always start to get that activation energy to really pursue change. And so what we had to teach the culture at 8x8 is to not be change weary, but to be change ready, and to understand that in this era, our ability to stay a couple months ahead of the rate of change will be a superpower the likes of which no one can compete with us. Meaning as difficult as it is to pursue this change and to continue reinventing yourself — and when I say revenge up, I mean if you're doing the same thing today in six months, then you're gonna be passed by — literally changing that fast. And we're seeing that inside of our company. And so the new constant will be changed. The new constant will be disruption. And the faster we get comfortable with that, and the faster we realize that if we disrupt ourselves a little bit faster than the competition, that's a superpower, but we're already enjoying it internally within 8x8, but it's because we've forced ourselves to get a little bit ahead. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:15 that's really interesting. And I imagine, would you say that it takes, you know, when you are in this transformation mode, because this is what you're taking your organization through, you know, how are you coaching as a leader? How are you — maybe it's through the repetition of trying it in their personal life. But you know, what are you sharing from a leadership perspective that's helping them think that way constantly, right? I mean, it's different from, “OK, I'm going to do this today and…” But how are they constantly ingraining that in themselves? And how are you leading that? Joel Neeb 22:46 Yeah, a couple of ways. One, we're saying that AI should be a thought partner in everything that we do, maybe not a thought leader, meaning, I'm not going to hand off a decision or an activity to AI, per se, but literally in everything that we do. So I'll give you a quick example in your role. So you're doing podcasts, and these are amazing. And by the way, you're poised, and I'm not surprised after knowing you at the Academy, because you were very polished then. But this is incredible. You did a phenomenal job with this. But let's say that you want to get some feedback after this session. You can take this transcript, upload it to AI, and you would say, “Give me the key themes from this session that we discussed.” You could say, “Create emails that will be enticing and send them out to the entire team based on this transcript that we have for this conversation.” You could say, “Create new episodes and new questions for the next 10 guests that will continue to weave a red thread of common questions and common themes throughout all these.” Where I'm going with this is when you consider how to use AI as a thought partner in everything that you're doing, you can go 100 times faster on the key things that we want to accomplish. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 23:52 I believe that wholeheartedly. And just a little side story, I'm coaching my son's fifth grade basketball team. Never coached basketball before, and he's going to be middle school next year, so it's the one and only year. But I used ChatGPT to build out my coaching plan, and we are — we only lost our first game and we've been undefeated since so I'm going to hand it off to my ChatGPT coaching partner. Joel Neeb 24:13 That's amazing. That's a great story. See, that would be one we'd love to hear at our session that we do every week around how accessible AI is. Because people hear that and they say,” I can do that too. I want to bring that to my kids game.” The more we use it every single day, the better prepared we're going to be for the big changes that are coming. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:27 Excellent. So Joel, I want to dig into your personal life a little bit, because you have such a fascinating way of — I mean, you make everyone feel that the moment that they're spending with you is 100% theirs. But I know in the background — and your time is important, you talked about that — but I know in the background, you are doing so many things. You've got your family is a key pillar. You know, your health and fitness is a key pillar. You're traveling all the time. As a leader. You know, how are you navigating all of that and doing it so well? Joel Neeb 24:58 Well, first of all, I appreciate the sentiment. I certainly don't feel like I'm always doing it well, but I'll tell you my philosophy and how I mentor people that are that are pursuing a path to their dreams, and whatever that dream might look like, is the following. I tell them, “If you're younger than 35 years old, you need to say yes to every opportunity that comes your way.” What do I mean by that? When the boss asks you if you're able to give a big sales presentation, even though the voice in the back of your head says you're not ready for this — “I don't think you you're gonna do well,” the answer is yes. You prepare yourself, you go out there, you embarrass yourself, you do it better next time. And that's how you learn through that process. When they ask you if you're ready to go lead this mission, your answer is yes. You're gonna figure it out. You're gonna do everything behind the scenes to make sure that you're successful. And you're going to push yourself into that discomfort zone and ensure that you're leaning into all of those opportunities as aggressively as you can. Why? Because it's exposure to all of those areas of discomfort that really owns the discipline for us to perform in this positive way when you get to those areas now. When you're after 35 years old, the main advice that I give to people is that you're flipping the script. You are no longer going to say yes to everything you're asked. You're going to aggressively say no to everything you're asked unless it aligns to your key things that you want to pursue in life. So you're completely looking at it in a different direction. I've said yes to everything for the first half of my life. Now I'm saying no to everything in the second half. Why? Because it's the distractions that stop us from doing the big things in life. Once we pass about 35 years old, the better you are at saying no to things, the freer your time will be to say yes to the most important things. So while it looks like I'm juggling a lot of things, to your point, I'm aggressively saying no to everything else that doesn't align with a few things that I have really focused my time on. Naviere Walkewicz 26:52 So let's pull that thread a little bit more, because saying no is uncomfortable, and it may feel to some that they are letting others down. How do you or how might you coach them through telling someone no? Joel Neeb 27:09 Yeah, I would say that I don't have that problem. I probably did, and certainly prior to cancer, I would have. I am at the place now after I've learned how short all of our lives are, not just my life because I had a cancer battle. And the big surprise for me was not that I might die in 18 months, it was that I was going to die at all. Because for all of us, that notion of death is so far away and really something that we don't really come face to face with very often in life, that all of a sudden I had to accept the fact that I was going to die someday, and I better make good use of the time between now and then. So when people ask to have my time, I aggressively say no. I never feel bad about it. And then I also introduce gatekeepers to my time on top of that. So I don't even — most of the time you're working with my executive assistant, most of the time you're gonna be working with somebody on my team, and that's because I want to jealously guard my time at this stage so I can be as incredibly impactful on the few things that I want to do as possible. That desire dwarfs any emotional attachment I would have to say no to somebody else that long time. It doesn't even cross my mind to think twice about it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 28:25 I think that's a great lesson right there. I mean, I think if you actually put time as the, you know, main, the thing you're protecting, right, everything else on to your point, it dwarfs behind that. And I think the way you did that, you actually made it very doable for people to say no, because now you've created gatekeepers, you put some stops in there. And I think that's a lesson that people can take away as they're looking to navigate their journey forward. So thank you for sharing that for sure. So, you know, you wrote two books, I'm sure there's probably more. Is that something you've always wanted to do, or has that been a realization of “I've experienced this, and there's a — I need to share this. Like, what was the impetus behind writing books on your experiences? Joel Neeb 29:09 Yeah, great question. Very different reason I wrote both books. So the first book was born out of this feeling that as I was going through cancer, that clarity that I experienced: The dying-have-the-most-to-teach-us-about-life piece of it, I came back to the sense that, wow, I wish I knew this before I had cancer, I would have lived my life very differently, and I had made a deal with God that, you know, if I do make it through this, I want to share these insights and share what you know, my perspective was from being on this precipice with death and what I take away from it, because I did think it was valuable enough for my life to share with others in my immediate vicinity and then to write it in a book. And I just needed to get that out of me. The second one for the insight age is much more around what is the template that I wanted to pursue within companies to help take them from the Information Age where we have universal access to information, to the Insight Age, where we now have universal access to AI-driven insights, and how you prepare for that. I wanted people to have the template for it and understanding about how I approached it before I showed up so that we could all be on the same sheet of music when I led the transformation. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 30:15 OK, that's really helpful. So as we think about AI in business, and, you know, having a template for that, can we talk a little bit? And we went to the Air Force Academy, and so I, gosh, I can't even imagine how I might have been a better student had we had AI back in the day. But how do you see AI disrupting? You know, our service academy cadets are, you know, anyone going through, you know, degree programs, you know, how do you use it where there's still original thought, but obviously it's, there's a thought partner that is helping you and maybe accelerate that. I mean, how is that working? Joel Neeb 30:49 It's the same shift that you and I both experienced with universal access to information in the Information Age. And so in other words, there was a time where you had to memorize every phone number that you would call in your network, right? I mean, I sat down — we went to a high school reunion recently and we all sat down and we're trying to rattle off the phone numbers across the table. And we got most of them out there, still lingering in our head somewhere, these memorized phone numbers for everybody. I couldn't tell you, like, my kids phone numbers at this point, like, because I'd push a button and I just get it. And where I'm going with that is we're now in an era where memorization of rote facts and phone numbers and just facts that you can find in the internet is no longer required, and we're used to that, right? And so I wouldn't say that we think less. I would say we think a lot more. At this era there's a risk right now of saying, “I'm no longer going to be required to do critical thinking, because AI is going to do some of that for me.” And the answer is, it will. But much like I got a calculator for every GR that I got to go to — I did a math minor at the Academy… Col. Naviere Walkwicz 31:54 That's why I didn't see you in any classes. Joel Neeb 31:59 I brought a calculator to every test, but it certainly didn't make it easier. If anything, it made it harder. I would have had an easier time like writing down calculations and just having to do the arithmetic. Because I had something that did the arithmetic for me, it elevated my thought process and made me more responsible for the critical thinking. You're going to see the same thing with AI. So as you think about it, how AI will disrupt a knowledge institution like the Air Force Academy. At first blush, we would think, well, it's just going to make it easier to cheat. It's going to make it easier to do the things that we're doing today. Yes, it does, just like if I only was doing arithmetic, a calculator makes it easier for me to do that, and I can turn my brain off. But as we all know, it's just going to elevate the threshold for what is required of us, right? So we're going to go in right, we're going to go into this next era with a thought partner on everything that we do, but you still have to guide that thought partner. You still have to point it in the right direction. You have to ask it the right questions. This era is going to be much less about having the right answers and much more about asking the right questions to find success. Col. Naviere Walkwicz 32:59 Which is critical thinking at its finest, honestly. Fascinating. So, you know, Joel, I think about you and, you know, when I see the, like, the things that you're doing, American Ninja Warrior, your family is involved in this. How do you see, you know, how do you bring your family into the vision that you have it with the growth mindset? Do you see that that's how your family is? All the children are raised that way your wife is. I mean, is this the way that the Neeb household kind of operates? And has it always been this way, or has it really been since you kind of came to that realization that life is too precious for me to live otherwise? Joel Neeb 33:35 Yeah, I mean, I try to live the philosophy that I want my family to live as well. And it's not the Joel show, meaning this is not just for them to support me and go cheer in the crowd at American Ninja Warrior. My wife has gone on and done physique competitions like you have as well. Col. Naviere Walkwicz 33:49 She's amazing. Your whole family's amazing. Joel Neeb 33:53 And she's a regional board member for a group called YPO. So she's in charge of 3,000 CEOs and a network for that. And then she just did a presentation to Europe yesterday on AI herself, and she's going to be traveling to Europe next month to do the presentation in a live setting. And so where I'm going with this is, I feel like because of my cancer battle, because of what we've experienced as a family, and we've learned how precious our time was and how incredible it is to experience that combination of terror and exhilaration, all of us lean into those moments, and we don't do it perfectly, and we all get mad at traffic, and we all are lazy once in a while, and, you know, myself included, but more, we try to do a little bit extra step into that direction, because it has been such a fun way to live after having the scare that we had as a family. Col. Naviere Walkwicz 34:43 That makes sense, and I can really see your family embracing that. You know, I want to ask you a question about yourself and what you're doing on a daily basis to be better, and it sounds like you're already thinking about it right? Reinvention on a constant basis. But if there was anything else you would say that you're doing on a daily basis to be better and better is, you know, in quotes, like you define what better is, what would that be? Joel Neeb 35:06 Yeah, I think that there's a couple of things that I think we should all try to do if we're trying to be, quote, unquote “better.” As you said, there's a quote I like that that says that we vastly overestimate what we can do in three months and we underestimate what we can do in five years. Col. Naviere Walkwicz 35:27 OK, wait, say that one more time. If you don't mind, say it one more time. Joel Neeb 35:30 Yeah, really, we overestimate what we can do in three months. “I can't wait for February. I'm going to do X, Y and Z.” And then we disappoint ourselves because we didn't accomplish all those things. And yet we underestimate what we can do in five years. What do I mean by that? It means that if we were intentional about what we wanted to do in the long term, about what we wanted to grow into in years from now, five years from now, you can reinvent yourself to be anything. I think conceivably, any of us could say, “I could accomplish just about anything in five years, if I put my mind to it.” The problem is we think in the short term, and so a lot of us think of I need this happen fast. I need the, you know, in three months. I need this to take place. That's putting the car before the horse. We need to define what we want to be in the long term and then back into what that implies we need to do right now. That also speaks to the focus that I have and saying no to other things, because if I have this big, audacious goal for what I want to be in the long term, then I have to say no to a lot of things if I'm going to take those steps necessary to start marching down that path. And so what I say to folks is that build that long term first, build that vision of what you want to be in the future that's exciting to you, whether that's a fighter pilot or a CEO or you name it, shoot for the stars, whatever that is that you want to be, and then start backing into it and celebrate the fact that you're doing this. In other words, then people get caught up and, you know, I feel like I'm not making enough progress, and I'm mad at myself for not taking enough steps, I would challenge that and say, don't put the pressure on yourself that you have to do this. Reverse that conversation. Say, “I get to, I get to pursue this vision.” Doesn't mean it'll take place. Doesn't mean to occur. But if I have a vision in mind, and I'm taking steps towards it, even if I don't reach it, I'm still going to be in an incredible place that I wouldn't have been otherwise. And so that's, that's the approach that I would take. Col. Naviere Walkwicz 37:18 All right, Joel, so what is your big audacious goal in five years that you're working towards? Joel Neeb 37:22 Big audacious goal? Yeah, so I am super excited about the future of AI. I think that it has a lot of positive and negative implications for society in general. And so I'll give you a quick example. Right now, we've got 9.5% of our recent graduates that are unemployed, which is much higher than it's ever been from graduating college. That's unique, and what I attribute that to is that we're just starting to see the workforce disruption that's occurring because of AI. We're starting to see the workforce drawdown that's occurring because of it. At the same time, we're seeing companies that are able to do much, much more with AI. And so they're questioning, well, how do I operate as a company? How do I teach everybody to stay on board this training and be successful in this new environment and then societally, we're challenged with, well, how do I set up our young people for success? How do I tell my 19-year-old what to do to do to be successful. So when I think about the big, hairy, audacious goal that I want to go pursue in this next chapter in five years, I want to be on the forefront, helping the government, helping companies, helping everyone to continue disrupting themselves and leaving as few people behind as possible in this next era. Because that's the real threat. And the challenge is cats out of the bag. If we don't do this, China is going to do it like others are going to pass it by. Pass it by. The wrong answer would be to try to step it back in the bag and say we're not doing any I we're going to put regulations around, putting our heads in the sand. We would just get passed by, like, in a few years by our biggest competitors out there, which we know we don't want to have happen. And so the key is, how do we keep as many people up to speed with his transformation possible? So I talked to, you know, graduates like August Pfluger, who's in Congress, and we have, yeah, he's awesome. And so we talk about, what does that look like in the future he's shaping, you know, the future from a government perspective? I talked to former Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger, is a good friend of mine, and we go on vacations together and a conversation we have about from a corporate perspective: How do we address this as well? So that's my big goal. That's what I want to influence over the next couple of years. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 39:22 Love that. So if you could rewind the clock and, you know, tell your young Joel, and this is really for anyone who is looking for preparing myself for that long term, right? So maybe it's not the five year, the big thing in five years, but it's — this is for what can I do today that is gonna — I'm gonna help myself — future me. What would you tell yourself, Joel? Joel Neeb 39:43 If I were to go back to Academy Joel, I would say, “Take this experience more seriously.” At the time, I kind of resented the experience that I was going through at the Academy, not understanding fully that they understood how to polish the coal to try to make it into a diamond. And I didn't always see the method to the madness behind the scenes and why they were doing things. And I would tell myself to take it more seriously, to lean into the leadership opportunities, lean into the experiences. I think it's a tendency as a cadet to lean away from those and to kind of look at those with resentment. I remember I did, and I wish I would have taken those more seriously. I wish I would have taken my 20s more seriously in terms of pursuing things that were uncomfortable, and not just getting comfortable towards the latter end of my 20s and early 30s, where I was flying upside down with ease every single day and really not doing anything that was challenging me too much. I certainly didn't have it all mastered and figured out. But my discomfort was all but gone in those moments. And so I would tell myself, “Keep leaning into those areas of discomfort, because it's in those areas that we find growth.” And growth is one of the top things that we can feel as a human being. Being a part of an elite team is growing together on an inspiring mission. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 40:56 Well, I know that you are, you know, constantly in the forefront of AI, but what makes you or what causes you discomfort now that you're working through? Joel Neeb 41:05 What causes me discomfort now is compelling a 2,400-person organization to move as quickly as I think we need to. In other words: right now. The things I'm talking to you about, I'm communicating with them about on a daily basis, and we have remotely dispersed teams. I'm staring into cameras like we are right now. So I'm not sitting in the room with them and helping them to learn these things. My discomfort is around how as a leader, can I be more compelling about the burning platform that they're standing on right now, that as soon as it burns away, their role is going to be obliterated, and we're going to be disrupted by the market. And how do I really excite them around this destination that we're pursuing together, where we're going a little bit faster than the rate of change? I'm proud of the progress that we've made, but in terms of the discomfort that I'm feeling, it's almost impossible to go fast enough in this era, and so I am. The thing that keeps me up at night is, how do I make this more compelling for them? And then ultimately, I know that whatever themes I'm learning right now to make it compelling is what I'm going to have to bring to society in this next chapter, as well as we try to keep the entire American society moving ahead of the rate of change that we're experiencing. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 42:14 Well, thank you for that. I would imagine you probably phoned your friend, ChatGPT, on some ways to do that, but I think that what you really shared today has opened, I think, eyes of how we can partner with technology at our fingertips. I mean, you and I were just chatting before this, and I asked you this, because one of the things I remember you being really big on is finding time to read as a family. I remember you had like Saturday family time, we read. As much as you're traveling and as much as you're trying to move your organization at this rate of change with AI, where do you find time to read now? Joel Neeb 42:47 Yeah, so I use AI for that too. So when I'm in the gym, I upload a chapter at a time into ChatGPT for the books that I'm reading, and I ask it to read it to me in the voice thing that it can do. And so it's reading the book to me. But the really cool part is, it's not just audible. I'm not just hearing, you know, the recording of it. And by the way, you can even tell it talk two times faster or whatever you want to do for the right speed. And I'll interrupt it. The cool part is, I'll say, “Hey, wait a second. I didn't really understand that that part of the book. Break it down for me in simpler terms.” And it'll actually pause, explain it to me and put it in terms that my fighter pilot mind can understand, or I'll even say, “Yeah, tell me about that theme in the context of the company that I'm in, 8x8, and tell me how we can apply that right now, and look at our industry. And how can I take some of this to that team?” And so it takes a book that was generically written and makes it customized for my experience by leveraging AI to do that. So once again, it's a thought partner in literally everything that I do. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 43:42 What's the last book that you read in which you were able to take some of those things to, or maybe that you'd recommend to some of our listeners to listen in via ChatGPT. Joel Neeb 43:51 I just finished reading the Teddy Roosevelt biography, which is phenomenal. What an incredible American, and it was inspiring to read. And I was able to pause it in parts and challenge some parts of the books and say, “Did that really happen?” And, “Tell me more about this incident in history.” And it explains some historical pieces that I wasn't aware of and the book didn't delve into as much as I would have liked it to. That's a little bit of a boring historian-nerd kind of answer, but that's what I took away from it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 44:17 Well, thank you for sharing that. So Joel, is there anything that we didn't talk about today that you would really like to make sure that we touch on? Because this has been a really exciting and fascinating conversation for me, but I want to make sure, because this has been your leadership journey, and there's so many facets to that that that we hit on the things that are important? Joel Neeb 44:33 The thing that I've learned in my time is that the foundation that we receive in the military, whether that's the cultural foundation, how we are all aligned with similar values, with a common mission that's inspiring the adherence to what we call in the business world, standard operating procedures, what you would call in the military, a checklist, effectively. That foundation that we have is easily the most valuable resource that I carried into the business world and the teams that I've been on. And I think we underestimate just how powerful that experience is, that during our 20s, we're in this incredibly disciplined environment with a really strong culture, really strong sense of value, really strong sense of mission. Pay attention to that while you have that opportunity. While you're being exposed to it, pay attention to how it was built. Pay attention to how they that accelerated our success in those teams. Because I promise you, you'll want to someday carry those concepts to every team that you're on in the future. And so I think it's an opportunity for us to leverage the incredible team that we're on in the military, and talk about that in an exciting way with whatever team that we participate on down the road. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 45:50 Thank you for sharing that. And if I could just pull on that thread a little bit more in that just in that transition, and taking those to those teams, I want to just jump to your very first transition from military to Afterburner? How did that come about for you? And I think that just our folks will be curious on that. Joel Neeb 46:10 Yeah, so Afterburner is a company that's been around since 1996 and they basically took some of those things from the military that I just spoke to, brought it into a corporate setting and helped them to adopt the same levels of positive outcomes. And when I saw this company, I said, “Wow, they really tapped into something that I that I knew as well intuitively, that if we apply some of these same themes, we could really take over anything in the business world. And so I reached out to the CEO and kept bugging him and continue to stay on his radar until he agreed to bring me into the office in Atlanta. I was living in San Antonio, and I went out there on my own dime and did an interview with them, and it went well. And of course, the rest is history after that point. But I found the thing I wanted to do and pursue, and then a very aggressively got in front of the people that could make it happen and definitely was part of the journey for me that I needed in order to be successful. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 47:04 Yes, I definitely wanted you to share that, because I knew, obviously, you had that experience. You took those things that you learned, and you wanted to hone in as you led other teams. But I think the critical piece was you pursued it, and you continue to pursue it, and you continue to pursue it until you got there, right? And so I think that's a critical part of moving forward and getting what we want. So I really am glad that you shared that, because it may seem that it's really easy just to make the transition, right? You can check all these boxes and so you're the shoe in, but it sounds like that wasn't the case, and you had to make a case for yourself. Joel Neeb 47:39 One-hundred percent. I had to be my own biggest advocate, and not in an arrogant way, in a way that I could show I could add value for that team. And that was, that was a lesson that I've taken and tried to apply since then. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 47:51 Well, I'll tell you what, it's been, gosh, 1999. How many years is that? 25 years for us? I mean, I feel like, you know, this has been a true honor to be able to sit with you. I mean, I've always watched your journey and just really been cheering you on, but I think what's incredible is how you're able to now really give back to our Long Blue Line. So Joel, thank you so much for this time today. It's been really wonderful having on Long Blue Leadership. Joel Neeb 48:14 What a privilege, Naviere. And I would say, you know, you had just asked me back in 1999 if there's a dozen people from the Academy that I thought would be very successful, your name would have been one of them. I don't think there's another person at the Academy who would have said my name. So we came from very different starting points, but I'm super excited to see the success you created, and, more importantly, the impact that you have on our graduate community, because it is noticed by everyone that I talked to. So thank you for how you lean into that our community as well. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 48:43 Thank you for saying that. And as we come to a close, I'd love to offer a few thoughts before we go. What stands out to me today from our conversation is how leadership is both timeless and adaptive. Joel's journey from commanding F-15 missions to leading global organizations and navigating AI reminds us that leadership fundamentals remain steadfast, just like you said, yet in the context in which we lead, it's always evolving, and the ability to adapt is what sets exceptional leaders apart. His story of personal resilience, overcoming stage four cancer diagnosis underscores that leadership is defined by how we respond to challenges and how we make lasting impact. From lessons in the cockpit to corporate transformation and personal discipline. Joel offers a blueprint for leading with confidence in uncertain times. Thank you for investing your time and listening in Long Blue Leadership. I encourage you to share this episode with others who are also in their personal journeys, especially because it's my classmate and he's phenomenal. Thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. I'm Naviere Walkewicz; until next time. KEYWORDS Leadership, leadership development, modern leadership, leadership mindset, growth mindset, resilient leadership, adaptive leadership, transformational leadership, leadership under pressure, leading through adversity, leadership lessons, executive leadership, high performance teams, elite teams, leadership philosophy, leadership strategy, personal growth, professional development, continuous improvement, reinvention, career transition, imposter syndrome, mental toughness, discipline, time management, prioritization, decision making, strategic thinking, innovation leadership, change leadership, leading through change, disruption, self leadership, accountability, peak performance, overcoming fear, stepping outside comfort zone, leadership habits, future of leadership, AI leadership, leadership in the age of AI, digital transformation, organizational culture, team culture, mission driven leadership, purpose driven leadership, high impact leadership. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
From combat missions in the F-22 Raptor to more than five months aboard the International Space Station, Lt. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers '11 has seen it all. SUMMARY In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Col. Ayers reflects on mentorship, teamwork and building the next generation of warriors and astronauts. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK TOP 10 TAKEAWAYS 1. Leadership is fluid: sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow. On Dragon and the ISS, command shifted between Anne McClain and Takuya Onishi. Everyone alternated between being commander and flight engineer, showing that strong teams normalize moving between leading and supporting roles. 2. Team care starts with self‑care. Vapor repeatedly links sleep, rest, hydration, and health to leadership performance. You can't be present for others if you're exhausted or burned out; taking care of yourself is a leadership duty, not a luxury. 3. People first, mission second (to enable mission success). Whether on deployment with 300 personnel or in space with 7, she focuses on taking care of the human—family issues, logistics, burnout, and emotions—trusting that performance and mission execution follow from that. 4. Trust is built long before the crisis. ISS emergency training with all seven crew, plus years of joint training in multiple countries, builds shared understanding and trust. When emergencies happen, the crew isn't figuring each other out for the first time. 5. Quiet, thoughtful leadership can be incredibly powerful. Takuya Onishi's style—observant, calm, speaks only when it matters, and brings thoughtful items for others—shows that you don't need to be loud to command respect. When he spoke, everyone listened. 6. Leadership means being fully present, especially on others' hard days. In both combat and space, you can't “hide” when someone's struggling. Being reachable, attentive, and emotionally available is a core leadership behavior, not a soft add‑on. 7. Normalize mistakes and share lessons learned. From F‑22 sorties to NASA operations, it's expected that you openly admit errors and pass on lessons so others don't repeat them. A culture where “experience is what you get right after you need it” only works if people share that experience. 8. Plan for “seasons” of intensity, not permanent balance. She frames life as seasons: some are sprints (deployments, intense training, big trips); others are for recovery. Wise leaders anticipate these cycles, push hard when needed, then deliberately create room to reset afterward. 9. Model the behavior you want your team to adopt. If the commander is always first in, last out, everyone else feels pressure to match that. By visibly protecting her own rest and home life, she gives permission for others to do the same and avoid burnout. 10. Lean on—and be—a support system. Her twin sister, long‑term friends, and professional peers form a lifelong support network she turns to when she fails, doubts herself, or hits something “insurmountable.” Great leaders both rely on and serve as those trusted people for others. CHAPTERS 0:00:00 – Introduction & Vapor's Journey (Academy, F‑22, NASA) 0:00:38 – Launch Scrub, Second Attempt & What a Rocket Launch Feels Like 0:03:33 – First Moments in Space, Floating & Seeing Earth (Overview Effect) 0:06:11 – Leadership & Teamwork in Space: Roles, Trust, and Small-Crew Dynamics 0:10:19 – Multinational Crews & Leadership Lessons from Other Cultures 0:14:47 – No‑Notice F‑22 Deployment & Leading a Squadron in Combat 0:18:14 – Managing Burnout: Scheduling, Human Factors & “Crew‑10 Can Do Hard Things” 0:19:46 – Self‑Care as Team Care: Seasons of Life, Rest, and Being Present 0:26:02 – Family, Being an Aunt, and Balancing a Demanding Career 0:28:14 – Life After Space: Mentoring New Astronauts & Evolving as a Leader ABOUT NICHOLE BIO U.S. Air Force Lt. Col. Nichole "Vapor" Ayers is a trailblazing pilot, leader and astronaut whose journey began at the United States Air Force Academy, where she graduated in 2011 with a degree in mathematics. An accomplished F-22 Raptor pilot, Ayers is one of the few women ever to fly the world's most advanced stealth fighter — and she's one of even fewer to command them in formation for combat training missions. Col. Ayers earned her wings through years of training and operational excellence, logging over 200 flight hours in combat and playing a critical role in advancing tactical aviation. Her exceptional performance led to her selection in 2021 by NASA as a member of Astronaut Group 23, an elite class of 10 chosen from among 12,000 applicants. As a NASA astronaut candidate, Col. Ayers completed intensive training at Johnson Space Center, which included spacewalk preparation, robotics, survival training, systems operations and Russian language. Now qualified for spaceflight, she stands on the threshold of a new chapter that led her to the International Space Station. Throughout her career, Col. Ayers has exemplified the Academy's core values of Integrity First, Service Before Self and Excellence in All We Do. Her journey from cadet to combat aviator to astronaut is a testament to resilience, determination and a passion for pushing boundaries. LEARN MORE ABOUT NICHOLE NASA Astronaut Nichole Ayers CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Host: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Guest: Lt. Col. Nichole "Vapor" Ayers '11 Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 Vapor, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We are so thrilled you're here. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 0:11 Thank you. Thanks for having me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:12 Absolutely. So the cadets get to spend some time with you at NCLS. Here the Long Blue Line is going to get to hear from you. And you know, we can actually go through the list. You know, F-22 pilot, USAFA 2011 graduate, you've been in combat, you're a NASA pilot. The list is probably shorter what you haven't done. But, frankly, I'm just excited that you're here on Earth with us, because the last time we spoke, you called me from outer space. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 0:35 Yeah, that was a lot of fun. That was a lot of chat with you then too. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:38 So let's just jump right in. So if we can just kind of catapult you, and let's do it in the way that they that NASA does, into space, maybe starting with the countdown, and then the Gs you take, what is that experience like? And maybe, what are some things you were thinking about in those moments? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 0:53 Oh, yeah. So, you know, we launched on March 14. First attempt was March 12, and we actually scrubbed the first launch. So we got all the way down to T minus 42 minutes right before we armed the launch escape system. So that's kind of a big milestone on the countdown. We were having issues with some hydraulics in the clamp that actually holds on to the rocket wall and then let's go. We weren't quite sure whether it was gonna let go, so they scrubbed the launch then, and it was a fascinating — you don't feel like you've got a ton of adrenaline going, but, you know, you feel kind of like you're in a sim. We do some really phenomenal training. And so when you're sitting on top of the rocket, it feels like you're in a simulator, except it's breathing and living, and the valves are moving, and you can hear the propellant being loaded and all of that. And so there's a very real portion to launch date. But then, coming down off of that adrenaline, we got a day off, thankfully. We could just kind of rest and relax and then go again. So everything went smoother the second try. Of course, you know, everybody's nerves are a little less, and everything was — it just felt calmer the whole way out. But, yeah, when that countdown hits zero, I like to say you're being slingshotted off the Earth. That's how it felt. You know, in that moment, you're going. There's over a million pounds of thrust, and it's going. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:10 I mean, that sounds like a lot. I can't really fathom in my mind what that feels like. Can you describe it? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 2:17 You know, so I talked about in an F-22 and an afterburner takeoff, which is the most thrust that we have basically in any airplane on Earth. You know, you get set back in your seat really far. And, if you think of an airliner takeoff, you kind of get set back in your seat a little bit. Multiply that by, like, 10 or 20, and then that happened for nine minutes straight on a rocket. You're just being forcefully set back in your seat for nine minutes straight and just thrown off of the Earth, and in nine minutes, you're in orbit. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:49 So when you had your practice, did you experience that level for that long as well? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 2:54 For the simulators? So they can't that. We can't necessarily simulate the Gs in the sim. So that's like the one part that, you know, we go through the whole launch, but you're sitting at one G the whole time, and throughout the launch, you know, the Gs build, then we back off the thrust and the Gs build again, and then you have an engine cut off. And I like to explain, like, if you could visualize, like an old cartoon, and everybody's in the car driving, and Dad slams on the brakes, and everybody hits the windshield. And then he slams on the gas again, and everybody goes back to their seats. Like, that's what it felt like when the engine cut off and, you know, main engine cuts off, and then within a few seconds, the second engine lights, and you're set back in your seat again. So I like to give that visual. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:33 That's really helpful, actually. Wow. OK, so you're there, you're in space. And I guess my first question would be, what's something that, in that moment, you're either thinking or you're just, are you still just orienting yourself? What is that like? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 3:45 Oh, man, you know, we're still in the seats for the first few moments in space, and we have to open the nose cone. There's some other things that are happening on the spacecraft, and getting ready for a burn, for a phasing burn, to get up to and catch up with the International Space Station. But, you know, then eventually you get to unbuckle and get out of your seat and floating for the first time. I got out of my seat and I'm floating there. It felt like, you know, Captain Marvel when she's, like, hanging out. Yeah, that's, that's how I felt. And, you know, I like to give the visual, because it's like, it's just nothing you've ever experienced in your life, you know. And then you look out the window and the view is something, it's indescribable. You know, I don't think we have the right words in the English language to describe what it feels like to look back at Earth from space. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:35 Was there a moment when you're looking out at Earth — did you kind of play back just different things in your life? Did you think about, you know, significance of things, or, like, scope of things, or even just the vantage point? Did it kind of just change things or were you just in awe at the moment? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 4:49 No, I think, you know, we talked about the overview effect, when astronauts specifically look back at Earth, and it hits everybody kind of differently. And for me, I think the biggest thing you know, when you look at a map of the states or a map of the world, you know, every country is a different color, or every state's a different color, and there are lines that describe the borders, right? And those don't exist in in space. Those don't exist like when you can't see different colored states, right? But you can see the Grand Canyon, and you can see the mountains, and you can see the Amazon, and you can see the desert in Africa. And you get to, you know, you get to learn the world geography by colors and terrain. And it's just a really good reminder that, you know, we're all humans, and we're all on this little fragile marble, just trying to take care of each other and trying to take care of Earth. And so I think that's what hit me the most, was just there are no borders, and we're all the same. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:44 Gosh, well, it's a unique and probably highly impressive team that you're with. I mean, we know the road to get to becoming a NASA astronaut is certainly one that is very difficult. Starts from many, many, in the 1000s, down to 10. And so, you know, when we think about leadership, and I've heard you share this before with others, you talk about teamwork and leadership, maybe explain a little bit what that's like in space when you're all so highly effective leaders. You know, what does that look like? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 6:12 That's a great question. You know, I think for us, it is a very fluid movement, right? You lead one day; you follow the next. And you know, I'll give you an example. So Anne McClain was the commander of SpaceX Crew-10 for NASA. So she was in charge of Crew-10 is our ride up to the space station, and our ride home, right? It's the capsule, the rocket and the capsule. And then we were on Expedition 73 aboard the International Space Station, where Takuya, who it was, Takuya Onishi, who was our mission specialist on Dragon, soon as we crossed into the hatch and he took command. He is now the commander of the Space Station, and Anne and I are flight engineers, and so it's a pretty fluid movement in terms of leading and following. But ultimately, you know, it's just about being a good team and taking care of each other. And I think that being a good leader is taking care of other people. And, you know, we talk about team care — self-care, and team care are like the huge parts that we actually train and learn about at NASA as we go through our training, because you're on this really small space in the vacuum of space for five-plus months at a time, and it's — there are only seven people up there and everybody's going to have a bad day. We're all humans, and you can't, there's no hiding. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:30 What's a bad day like in space? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 7:32 People make mistakes, right? We're all human. You might make a mistake on something, you might mess up a procedure. You hope that it's not something that causes a safety incident, right? The main goal for me, at least, was, I know I'm going to make mistakes. As long as I'm not unsafe, I'll be happy. And I think that a lot of us have that conscious decision-making process. But I think that we're also humans and have Earth lives, and your Earth life doesn't stop when you go to space. And so bad days could be something going on at home. Bad days could be something going on in space. Could be an interaction that you had with somebody on the ground that, you know, there's a lot of communication that happens between us on the ground. There are thousands of humans on the Earth that keep the Space Station running. So that day could be anything but it's tough to hide up there. Here, you can kind of like, duck and cover and maybe you just spend the day in an office. But it doesn't happen up there. We have to continue to work and continue to function. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:32 So you mentioned that there are seven of you in this tight space. Now, when you go up there, your crew, is it the same seven? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 8:38 For the majority of the time. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:42 OK, excellent. So one of the things we think about whenever we're leading or we're working with teams is trust, and obviously you have a great amount of trust with the crew that you're going up there with. But then you mentioned you went on to the ISS and you're working with others. What does that look like when it's someone maybe you haven't worked as closely with in a really important mission? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 9:03 So for the seven expedition members, we actually do train together for a little bit of it, not nearly as closely as, you know, the four of us training for Dragon mission. But because the most dynamic parts are launch and landing, we do a lot of training together, just as the four of us, but we train all over the world. So we go to Japan and Germany and Canada, and we go to, you know, Hawthorne, California, and we go to Russia, and we train with them, and we learn about the Russian segment, and we train with our fellow cosmonauts there. And we do emergency training specifically all together, because it takes all seven of us in an emergency doing the right thing and knowing everybody's roles. And so we train that together as well. And then anytime you're in the same country or same city together, then you get to spend the time outside of the training to get to know each other. And so you actually know your crew fairly well. But obviously, everybody's from a different nation. And we had Americans, we had a Japanese astronaut, we had Russians, so you learn everybody's culture, and it's actually, you know, to your point on being in that small — and not necessarily knowing everybody. There's also a cultural aspect; we get to know each other. We get to learn about other people's cultures and figure out how to communicate and live and work, even across the whole world. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:19 What was something that you learned from another culture of astronaut, maybe in the leadership realm, or just something that you took away, that's really something that surprised me, or like to emulate? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 10:30 I love Taku's leadership style. So Takuya Onishi — he's one of those more quiet humans, and he's super kind, but he is the most intelligent human I've ever met, and he is super-efficient with everything he does, and he pays attention to all of the little things. And so he only speaks up when he thinks something needs to be changed, or when he thinks that, like, we need to go in a different direction, otherwise, he's pretty happy to let you go, like, let you go as far as you want to go on something. And then when he thinks you're gonna run off a cliff, he pulls you back. So when he speaks, everybody listens. And I love that. I think some of that is cultural, obviously, him being from Japan, but I think it's also just his personal leadership style, but I learned a ton from him in terms of how to interact with people, how to let people be themselves, but also how to run a ship, and everybody knew exactly who was running the ship. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:22 Wow. And it shows that respect lens that you're just kind of talking about when he spoke. Everybody listens. Is that something that you feel you already had that kind of leadership style or is that something that you've kind of evolved in yourself? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 11:37 I like to think that that's the way that I lead. That's kind of how I try to be a leader. But we're not perfect, right? Nobody's perfect. And watching him, you know, taking notes from how he interacted with everybody, the things that he thought of, the things that he brought with him for us on station, you know, we get a very limited amount of stuff, personal things that we get to bring with us. And he brought things for the crew that were like, huge milestones for professional careers. You know, just the attention to detail on the human beings around him was pretty phenomenal. So it's one of the things I'm working on to be better at, because I like to think I'm good at it. But I saw the master work. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:18 I love that. And something you said about him, he always has attention to detail, and he saw the little things. He paid attention to the little things. I remember a past conversation we had. You had a little nugget from Col. Nick Hague, also USAFA — '98 I believe. And I think he said to you, something about, you know, “Nicole, don't forget that you're squishy,” or something like that. And so have you had more of those moments in there where they're like little nuggets or little moments that actually give you a big return or big lessons in your life? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 12:46 Oh, definitely, yeah, that one's a funny one, because the space station is metal. Everything is metal, and it's hard and so we still have weight, well, mass. We still have mass. We don't have weight, right, because we're in microgravity. But if you're cooking around a corner and you run into a handrail, it's gonna hurt, you know, if you imagine going 10 or 15 mph into something metal, it's gonna hurt — you're squishy. So that was a great lesson in slowing down and making sure you're watching your surroundings. But one of the things that Anne McClain says that cracks me up, but every time it happens, like, “Yep, this is definitely—," she says, “Experience is that thing you learn right after you need it.” And so we had a lot of those moments where you learn a lesson and you're like, “Ah, I wish I knew that five minutes ago.” And so that's something that applies everywhere. Experience is that thing you always needed right before that happened. But we also like to say Crew-10 can do hard things. That's another thing that was just kind of our motto, whether it's training — some of the training can be really physically demanding. It's really mentally demanding. And it's a lot of travel. When you get assigned to a mission, it's probably a year and a half to two years of training, and then you're gone for six months. So out of that two to two and a half years, you're not home for over a year. So you're all over the world, traveling to train and work. And like I said, we're all humans. We have Earth lives, we have homes, you get situations back home. And so navigating personal lives, navigating professional lives, navigating tough training. Crew-10 can do hard things. We like to say that. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:22 I like that. It also talks a bit about your grit. Crew-10 grit. So, talking about hard things, I'd like to take us to the time when you've been piloting the F-22 and you've seen combat. I heard you speaking a little bit before about a no-notice deployment. Let's visit that time in your life. What were you doing? What was your role, and what was something you experienced? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 14:47 Sure. So I was actually flying the day that we got notified. And, you know, just a standard training sortie — had landed, and some of the maintainers were like, “Hey, have you heard what's happening?” And I was like, “No, what's happening?” And then we had a big squadron meeting, and that's when we got notified, like, “Hey, we're deploying.” We were on the GRF, is what it was called at the time, Global Response Force, and I think some of that structure has changed since I left that squadron, but we knew that once we were on the GRF, there was a chance that we would get activated and get moved somewhere. Didn't necessarily expect it to be quite that quick. I think it was like the next week we got this deployment. So we got notified on a Thursday, I think, and then on Monday, I was taking off. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:31 Oh, really no notice. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 15:33 Yeah, so, four days later, we were taking off, and then seven days later, we were flying missions from — we were stationed at Al Udeid Air Base, so we're flying out of Al Udeid within a week. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:45 How many with you? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 15:47 So when we deploy, we actually deploy with our maintenance squadrons, 300 people. Twenty to 30 of them are the pilots, and then the rest are the maintainers. And so it's the entire squadron. We morph into an expeditionary squadron. And so there are 300 people that head out. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:03 So I imagine, you know, on top of the fact that it was such a rapid movement, there's probably things that people had to obviously work through family. This needs to happen. But what were some things that you experienced in that deployment, or even in just that transition? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 16:21 Again, I go back to taking care of people. I was a flight commander at the time. We had two flight commanders, so I'm in charge of basically half the squadron, and we had a really wonderful commander who gave us the authority and the autonomy to leave the squadron. So, you know, it's about saying, like, “How are you guys doing at home?” Half our squadron didn't even have tan flight suits. You know, we're trying, we're working with logistics. We're trying to get everything ready. Like, does everybody have a go bag? Does everybody even know what a go bag is? Do you have the things you need? So working all of that. And then do you have the childcare figured out? Do you have the — how is all your family doing? Are you ready for this? And then we had to do a bunch of last-minute training before we left. And so it's a really busy time, but it was one of the first times where I felt like I had an influence on the people that were under me, that I had supervised. And so it was a really great experience to solve those problems, figure it out and help people get off the ground in four days successfully, and leaving something, some semblance of structure at home. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:24 So you said it was the first time where you kind of really felt that you had that impact. What would you say kind of maybe crystallized within yourself in learning that? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 17:36 I think it really solidified. I think I said, “I try to lead by taking care of people,” right? I truly believe if you take care of the human, they're going to do a really great job. You don't have to ask much of people at work and in their professional life, if their personal and the human side of them is taken care of and so that's kind of what I mean when I say that solidified it for me, like, make sure that the humans are good to go, and they'll go do anything you want to do. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:04 Wow. So while on that deployment, you're leading half of that squadron. What were some of the challenges maybe that you experienced, and how did you grow as a leader during that timeframe? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 18:14 Scheduling is definitely a tough one. So we flew daytime and nighttime. We basically had an F-22 airborne for almost 24 hours a day for the entire six months, six and a half months. We left and we were told it might be two- or three-month deployment, and then it turned into six months. And then we got delayed up coming home. And so then we stayed through Christmas. And those are the things that really are tough for people. But we have a limited number of jets that we took. We have a limited number of pilots; we have a limited number of maintainers and parts. And so I think for us, managing a schedule between me and the other flight commander, managing a schedule, managing quality of life for everybody, and make sure that we're not burning people out, or that they're not —we're flying eight-, nine-, 10-hour sorties, right? And that's exhausting. It's just you and that airplane with your wingman and a different airplane. And so you have to manage, again, that human factor. The human capital is probably the toughest thing to manage. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:15 Wow, and you talked about how the deployment kind of got extended. What were some things, because many of our listeners and our viewers are leaders, and at different levels of leadership and different times in their lives where they're doing that. When you were leading, and you had some of those subordinates, or those that were working with you that really experienced some troubles, through emotions, through some of that. How did you help navigate them through that when you were all in that as well? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 19:46 Right. You know, I think at NASA especially, we talk about self-care being a huge part of team care. And so making sure I do this in my regular life too, but, you know, making sure that you're getting enough rest, making sure that you're taking care of yourself and your personal life, so that you can truly be present for the other people that need you. And I think being present for others is one of the biggest things that you can do. You know, they may not need a ton of help, or they may not need the solution, but being there, being available and being present for people is really important. But you can't do that unless you're good to go yourself. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:18 Did you see that from someone? Did you learn that from someone you saw doing that? Or just, how did, I mean NASA's — you said, NASA, but did you see that at the Academy? Or where did you kind of gather that? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 20:28 You know, I think one of the things that hit me hard about showing up and being present was actually more professional. I kind of skated through the Academy on minimal sleep, and I was able to manage everything. But I wasn't flying a $143 million airplane. And so, in pilot training, we started to talk about crew rest and pilot rest. That's the first time that I had heard this concept of, “You need to go home and get rest so that you can be on your game.” Because flying airplanes, your decisions have real consequences, right? And you have to be present and available, and you have to be on your game to fly airplanes and do well in airplanes. And then the faster and the higher and the better the airplane gets, the more on your game you have to be. So I think it's something that has just kind of evolved in me. And then, as a leader, I realized, if you don't have any gas in the tank, you cannot help somebody else. And so for me, it's just kind of been, over the last decade and a half, of, wow, I need my sleep. I need to make sure I'm good to go. I need to make sure my human is good, so that way I can help other humans. And yeah, when your decisions have real consequences, it's important that you're present and you're ready to go. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:43 Have you seen some of the fact that you prioritize that for yourself, for you as your own human? Have you seen others kind of like see that, view that, and actually take that on as well themselves. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 21:53 Yeah, I think they do. And I think, as a leader, it's really important to set that example. The commander cannot be the first one in last one out. Like, you just can't do that, because everybody's going to stay until you leave. So setting the example, setting the example of having a good home-life balance as well. Like, home and work have to be balanced. Sleep has to be balanced. Again, self-care is the biggest part of team care, I think. And if you model that, people start to realize it's important. You know, the younger people that might burn themselves out trying to get somewhere, trying to get to the next step, or trying to impress somebody, or whatever the case may be, if they see you taking a step back and they see your success, maybe then they can start worrying about themselves too. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:34 I think that's a great lesson, leading by example. For sure. There are probably moments that you experience both at the Academy, while flying the F-22 or as an astronaut, where you don't have the luxury of balance. How do you navigate that and how do you help others get to that space maybe quicker? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 22:53 I think of everything as a season in life. It might just be a busy season, and you might just have to put some time in but making sure that you are planning ahead and know that you're gonna be able to take some time and reset. And that could be anything, right? That could be personal life, professional life. That could be the four-week training trip that we've got is going to be rough, and its multiple time zones, and it's a ton of training, it's a ton of information. You just have to get through it. But then, that week, when we got home, I made sure my schedule was a little lighter. Whatever the balance is, I think of things in seasons. Crew-10 can do hard things, right? And that came from — you can get through this next training session, right? But we're gonna do a mask-to-suit transition, which is like in a fire, you've got a mask on. You have to get from that mask into your spacesuit. It's a significant physical event. And there's limited oxygen; there's limited ability to breathe in the suit when in that specific environment. And so how do you slow down, take the breaths you need to get in there to not then get to a point where you're panicking, right? Or that you're too exhausted or too hot or overdid, or whatever it is, right? So I think even just that, that is a season. We're going to do two hours of this. That's my season, and then we'll get out of the simulator, we'll take a break, right? And if it happened on orbit, it would be like, “We're going to get through this. We're going to solve the problem. We're going to manage the emergency, and then once things are set, we'll have a moment to breathe.” So that's kind of how I think of it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:21 Did seasons come something, a term that you kind of realized maybe at the Academy, you were a volleyball athlete at the Academy, and so volleyball has a season. But my question is, like, how did you come to that realization? Like, “Oh, I can get through this, and I put it in a bucket of time.” Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 24:35 You learn a lot of time management at the Academy, and when you're in the fall, you're really busy, spring season is less busy, and so you kind of learn early how to manage. Like, “OK, I've got to run. I gotta sprint,” right? “And then I can jog later, or I can walk later.” So, I think you learn that growing up in school, and you know, if you play sports or you do extracurricular activities or other things like that, or even just seasons in life at home, life ebbs and flows. I don't even know when I started saying it, but my sister and I started saying “seasons of life” to each other a long time ago. You know, she's got three kiddos, so she's been in all sorts of seasons. But, yeah, it's just, you know, I think I started to time block things, or block things off and just, and that's the only way you're going to get through life, is if you focus on what you need to do right now, be good at it, and then move to the next thing. You can have an idea of what's coming next, but you have to be present and do what you're doing there. Yes, so, yeah, seasons, time, blocks, whatever you want to call it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:39 I like that. Well, you brought up your sister, and so you're an auntie of three. Let's talk about your personal life and leadership, some experiences you've had navigating your schedule. You're on the road so much. How do you prioritize? I guess the things that are important to you when you have such a heavy schedule, yeah, being on the road and the people that are important to you, right? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 26:03 Man, I think that for me, my family has been a huge support system my whole life. My twin sister — built in best friend. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:13 And who is older? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 26:14 She is. She's got me by a minute. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:18 OK. Does she hold that over you? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 26:20 Yes, of course she does. We've just always supported each other 100% and everything. She's been my biggest cheerleader through all of my life, and I've been her biggest cheerleader through all of her life. And you know, my main goal in life is to be the coolest auntie, like the best auntie, and I would die happy. And they're a huge priority to me. I see them every couple two to three months — since my oldest has was born. So for the last 14 years, just made it a priority, even if it's like, leave late on a Friday night and then get home late Sunday night, I make the effort to go see them and to interact with them. And you know, to help foster them. You know they're growing up. And I love watching kids grow up and experience the world and see what can be done. Their dad's a Marine, their mom's this really successful real estate agent, their auntie' a pilot-slash-astronaut. You know, they've got, like, all these no family that's really not doing very much. Yeah, you know, they've got all these really great role models. And my goal is to just show them that it doesn't matter who you are, like they only ever know me as auntie. Like they know I'm an astronaut, and they love that. Their friends know that I'm an astronaut. Anti vapor, no, no, yeah. But, you know, like, they're always gonna get a big hug from auntie, like, that's, that's what's important to me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:36 Well, you mentioned, going into space, being an auntie. So, would you describe your time and space is, it's probably out of this world. I mean, that's, wow, that's terrible. That's terrible I said it that way. But I think you've mentioned it is kind of the best time in your life. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 27:52 Yeah. Best five months my life. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:56 Best five months of your life, and it's passed. Now, when we think about our evolution, whether personally, professionally, as leaders, etc., we have these ideas in our mind, like, this is the pinnacle. How do you navigate what's next after you've experienced that pinnacle? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 28:14 Yeah, that's a great question, and I think it's something that a lot of us struggle with when we come home. What's next? We get six months, some time to think and kind of get reintegrated. And you don't necessarily have to go back to work right away. I was able to spend a ton of time with my sister and her kiddos. Yeah, what's next. And I think for me, like the drive out to the launch pad, I was like, “Man, I've made it.” You know, the first time I looked out the window from Dragon, “I've made it.” First time we crossed the hatch, and I went and looked out the glass like, “Wow. The hard work paid off.” And I still feel like that to this day. I would have spent four more months in space if they had asked me to, and I would have turned around and launched right back then the day that we landed, and it was because of the crewmates that I spent it with and the fulfillment that I got from the mission. But I think you can find fulfillment in a lot of ways. And you know, my job, now that I've been back, I'm going to be working with the new class of astronauts and their training for spacewalk. So in the Neutral Buoyancy Lab, our big pool, like, my job is to be their mentor as they go through the spacewalk training. And you know, like, I cannot wait. I'm so excited. I cannot wait to have an impact and try to help teach this next generation of spacewalkers, this next generation of astronauts, to be better than us. I find a lot of fulfillment in making the next generation better. So I think, however the fulfillment shows up for people, I think as long as you can find something, there you'll be happy. Going to space was great, but teaching and instructing and mentoring is also really fulfilling for me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:54 And that will be 10 of them? How many will that be? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 29:55 Ten. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:56 Ten. So then you'll have 13. You'll be auntie to 13. Oh, that's wonderful. What have you learned about yourself since then? You know, you've evolved as a leader through different situations, high threat, high risk. Safety is paramount. All of those different experiences. And now you're back on Earth and you're about to, you know, mentor. How have you evolved your leadership, and where would you say you're trying to go? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 30:23 Where am I trying to go? I think, for me, leadership is also about being vulnerable and being open and honest with people about failures or hardships and so, you know, like in the flying community, if you make a mistake, you're immediately like, “Hey, I messed this up. Here's how we fix it.” And that's something that we do at NASA as well, especially on a grand scale, right? Thousands of employees and everybody like, that's the only way that we get to space is by admitting when we've made mistakes, talking to each other about how we fix it and sharing those lessons learned. And so I think that especially when you get into the higher roles of leadership, it's important to go, “Hey, I messed up,” or, “Hey, I don't know the answer.” And being transparent with the people that you're working with. And if you don't know it, but you know where to go find it, like, “I'll get that answer for you,” instead of making up an answer, trying to figure out how to look like you're in charge, right? It's really important to me to also show that we don't know everything. We're human. We make mistakes, and it's OK to make mistakes, as long as you share it, and you share the lessons learned, and you make the next person better. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:32 Did you experience that personally? Did you have a moment in which you had to say, “Hey, I made a mistake,” and that's helped you realize that being vulnerable is really important or is that just something you've seen done really well? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 31:40 Oh, I've admitted a lot of mistakes. You know, I made a couple pretty big mistakes in the Raptor. Everybody's gonna make a big mistake at some point in their life. And, you know, I think that that was something that was modeled really well in the flying community early on. And it's something that's not tolerated if you're not willing to share your lessons learned. It's not tolerated in that community. That's a really good thing. I learned that in pilot training, right? If your buddy in your class makes the same mistake the next day that you made, you get in trouble because you didn't tell them how to how to prepare. And so it's fostered early on, especially in the flying community. I can't speak to any other community because I grew up there, but it's fostered early on, and so it's just something that comes naturally. I think eventually, because you just, you've seen it done so many times, and if you want other people to succeed, you're going to do it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 32:29 All right. Well, we have two questions left. The first one is, what's something you do every day to be a better leader? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 32:37 That's a good one. This is gonna sound silly, but I sleep. Like, I'll go back to the self-care thing, right? Like, I put a lot of attention into being healthy, being hydrated, sleeping well. Like, if you take care of your body, your mind is going to do way more for you. And so I think you can show up as a better leader if you show up, rested, hydrated, fed, worked out whatever you need to do to be the best human you can be. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:09 That's what I try to do. OK. I like that a lot, and I think that's a good indication for me that six hours is probably not enough. Naviere needs a little bit more. And it's truth, because you told me, though I'm gonna do that. The second one is, if you could go back in time, maybe what's something you would have told yourself — your younger self — or maybe, as our cadets are listening, that you've learned and what they can be doing now to be a better leader down the road. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 33:34 If you run into a hardship or you fail at something, or something feels insurmountable, or you don't feel like you're ready, good enough, or whatever the case may be, doubt starts to seep in, right? I would say, rely on the support system that you have. Rely on the people around you. Talk about it. Figure out, you know, “Hey, I failed this GR, like, man, this kind of sucks.” And you know, maybe you just need to hear me say it out loud, and maybe I just need to get it off my chest, or maybe I need help trying to figure out the solution for whatever the case may be. So, you know, I had a built-in team on the volleyball team. I had a built-in friends and teammates that I could lean on. Maybe that's your squadronmates or your classmates, or whoever it is, right? And I think finding the friends that you can rely on for the rest of your life. Professionally, I've got a friend here that I met in the F-22 community. We've been friends for almost a decade now, and he's still one of the first people that I call when something happens, like, “Oh, I messed this up today. Help.” So, you know, finding a support system. My sister's the other person that I call first off. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:38 She probably knows you're gonna call when you call. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 34:39 Yeah, we talk way too much. But, you know, having that support system around you and finding people that really bolster you and get you across that line and help you find the courage to take the next step, I think that's really important. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:54 I know I said there was only two, but as I've listened to you, I just think you're just you're just remarkable, and maybe what's something that you're proud about yourself as a leader. I would really love to hear that in your, you know— Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 35:05 I think the thing that makes me the most proud as a leader is when somebody succeeds and it's something that I helped them do. I've had somebody come back and say, “Thanks for saying that.” That pushed me out the edge, you know, like, I'm really into building the next generation and make them better than us. And so if I see somebody succeeding, that's good. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 35:27 Well, this has been incredible. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you would love to share with the Long Blue Line in our community? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 35:33 Oh, man, the community is great. I think I would just say thank you to the community. I've gotten so much love and support from Coloradans, but also the Long Blue Line and the Air Force in general. You know, I love the community that we have. It goes right back to what I just said, right, finding a community that supports you and pushes you to do better and be better. And this is that community. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 35:55 Well, Vapor, I promise I'm gonna get more sleep, and I just want to thank you for being such an incredible leader and guest here on Long Blue Leadership. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 36:03 Thanks for having me back. Absolutely. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:05 Thanks. You know, this conversation was really incredible with Vapor. I think some of the things that really stood out to me is just how incredible as a human she is. She brings humanity into leadership. She puts people first. She thinks about the team. She works hard. Don't forget to prioritize sleep. But I think really, some of the lessons that we can all take away can hit us all personally, because if you think about people first and taking care of them, and the fact that you have to take care of yourself too, you can go really far in leadership. So I really appreciate her today on Long Blue Leadership. And I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. Until next time. KEYWORDS Joel Neeb, Long Blue Leadership, Air Force Academy leadership, USAFA leadership, military leadership podcast, leadership development, leadership lessons, character-based leadership, leadership under pressure, leading with integrity, decision making in leadership, mentorship and leadership, values-based leadership, service before self, leadership mindset, leadership podcast interview, military leadership stories, leadership for professionals, leadership for entrepreneurs, how to be a better leader, leadership growth. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
What does courage look like under fire? In captivity? In command? In service? This edition of Long Blue Leadership was recorded on location at the U.S. Air Force Academy's 33rd National Character and Leadership Symposium. We've explored these questions with our guests and captured the conversations for you. Ted Robertson, Multimedia and Podcast Specialist for the Air Force Academy Association and Foundation, hosts this special episode featuring voices shaped by combat, crises and lifelong service. Their message to cadets is clear: Leadership is earned through character, and character is forged in hard moments. - Seg. 1: Lt. Col. Mark George and C1C Jaime Snyder, officer and NCLS cadet director, respectively, set the stage for this year's NCLS and for the podcast. - Seg. 2: Senior Master Sgt. (Ret.) Israel "DT" Del Toro on courage in times of crisis. - Seg. 3: Task Force Hope developer and facilitator Maj. Tara Holmes on preparing future leaders to handle crisis before it happens. - Seg. 4: Former POW Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Edward Mechenbier '64, on leading in circumstances out of your control. - Seg. 5: Annapolis grad and Vietnam-era aviator, Capt. (Ret.) J. Charles Plumb on how character breeds courage. All of our guest's lives and careers reflect the reality of this year's theme through combat, crisis and service. CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS: - Host, Ted Robertson, Multimedia and Podcast Specialist, United States Air Force Academy Association and Foundation - Seg. 1: C1C Jaime Snyder, NCLS Cadet Director; Lt. Col. Mark George, NCLS Officer - Seg. 2: Senior Master Sargent Israel Del Toro - Seg. 3: Maj. Tara Holmes, Task Force Hope - Seg. 4: Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Edward Mechenbier '64 - Seg. 5: Capt. (Ret.) J. Charles Plumb Ted Robertson 0:00 Welcome to Long Blue Line Podcast Network coverage of the 33rd annual National Character and Leadership Symposium. I'm Ted Robertson, multimedia and podcast specialist for the Air Force Academy Association & Foundation, coming to you from Polaris Hall located here at the United States Air Force Academy. This year's symposium centers on the theme Courage to Lead in the Profession of Arms: Combat and Crisis-tested Character, where attendees and cadets will explore how courage in all its forms shapes leaders when uncertainty, fear and consequence are real. Our coverage will start with the Center for Character and Leadership Development's Lt. Col. Mark George and NCLS director, Cadet 1st Class Jaime Snyder. They'll set the stage not only for NCLS, but for today's coverage. Then we'll talk with four key leaders speaking at the symposium, including Senior Master Sgt. (Ret.) Israel Del Torro on keeping courageous during times of crisis. We'll also talk with Task Force Hope developer and facilitator, Maj. Tara Holmes, on preparing leaders to handle crisis before it happens. Then, former POW, Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Edward Mechenbier, USAFA Class of '64, on leading in circumstances out of your control. And finally, Annapolis grad and Vietnam-era aviator, Capt. (Ret.) J. Charles Plumb, on how character breeds courage. All of our guests' lives and careers reflect the reality of this year's theme through combat, crisis and service. So I want to bring in our first two guests to help, as I said, frame the discussion today. We're going to dig in to learn what this is all about and sort of the “why” behind it. Cadet Jaime Snyder, 2026 NCLS director. Cadet Snyder, you've helped lead the organizing of the National Character and Leadership Symposium — 33rd year for this, as you know, and part of that work, you've trained cadets and permanent party. I'm going to ask you to explain permanent party, all of which helps strengthen your own public speaking and leadership communication skills. You want to kind of expound on that a bit? C1C Jaime Snyder 2:20 Yes, sir. So a part of my role being in NCLS is to, one, provide the guidance, the support and resources on the cadet side to succeed. But what really makes NCLS special is that we integrate permanent party with cadets. So oftentimes me, in supporting and training permanent party, is giving them cadet perspective, because while they're over here and the Center for Character and Leadership Development, we're over there in the Cadet Wing, and I can be the mediator between both parties. Ted Robertson 2:46 Let's talk a little bit about permanent party. What does that term mean? Who does that describe? C1C Jaime Snyder 2:52 Oh yes. Permanent party describes the civilian and military faculty that works in the Center for Character and Leadership Development that assists with the execution of NCLS — the National Character and Leadership Symposium. Ted Robertson 3:05 How big is the team behind this event every year? C1C Jaime Snyder 3:08 It's kind of complex where we'll get search cadets. We'll get a large number of volunteers, approximately around 300 from the Cadet Wing. Internal staff consists of 50 cadets who work it throughout the entire year, and around 50 staff members who are permanent party who work in the Center for Character and Leadership Development. Ted Robertson 3:29 I want to bring in next Lt. Col. Mark George, who is the experiential and training division chief and NCLS program director, the very fortunate man that gets to work for some incredibly talented cadets. Col. Mark George 3:43 That is absolutely true. Thanks to for having us on. Cadet Snyder has done an outstanding job leading this team. I came into this a little bit late. You know, we've had some reorganization here at the Academy, and after some shuffling, I got the honor and the privilege to take over NCLS while the planning was well underway. So my job was to just make sure this train kept rolling, that people had the resources that they needed, the top cover they needed. And as Jamie said, he was training me as a permanent party member to make sure that I had the cadet perspective. And then, you know, we were moving this ball forward as we got to this event. Ted Robertson 4:23 So coming up in the podcast we'll get to the sort of “why” and what's at the core of NCLS. Colonel, let's start with you. What is National Character and Leadership Symposium designed to do for cadets? Col. Mark George 4:38 Sure. The National Character and Leadership Symposium — NCLS — is designed to bring exemplars that embody the core values and the traits that we want cadets to have when they become leaders on Day 1 and inspire them to a lifetime of service. Ted Robertson 4:57 Cadet Snyder? C1C Jaime Snyder 4:59 We definitely see at USAFA, there is a clear correlation with NCLS and character development. One thing we want cadets to get out of NCLS is to further develop leaders of character who are going to join the fight in the Air Force and Space Force, and that's why I see the epitome of NCLS as it's an opportunity to hear people's perspectives as well as learn from it and apply it to their daily lives. Ted Robertson 5:24 Gentlemen, this year's theme focuses on the courage to lead in the profession of arms. Cadet Snyder, we'll start with you. How did that theme come together, and why is it especially relevant for cadets right now? C1C Jaime Snyder 5:40 With our current structure at USAFA, we've had some implement of change. We recognize that the future war conflict is more prevalent than ever, and that it's important for the cadets to understand that we're changing the way we approach training, as well as what we're learning in curriculum. So this NCLS was an incredible opportunity to discuss courage when leading in the profession of arms, but furthermore, courage and crises-tested character. Which is what we're trying to further push along with what we do in training as well as what we teach in leadership. Ted Robertson 6:15 You make good decisions when your character is strong. You make those decisions with integrity when your character is intact and it's strong. Would you agree with that, Colonel? Col. Mark George 6:25 Absolutely. And I think Cadet Snyder hit the nail on the head that we really want the cadets to understand that the environments that they're stepping into are going to require that courage to do hard things. In my day, like we didn't necessarily think about the fight in that way. You know, we were kind of stovepiped in. And these cadets, whatever environment they may be stepping into, the next conflict is going to require a lot, a high demand of them, and their character is their foundation for that. Ted Robertson 6:59 One of the things you can say about this event is that it brings together voices from combat, crisis, athletics, academia and industry. How intentional is that mix, Cadet Snyder, and what do cadets gain from hearing such different perspectives on leadership and character? C1C Jaime Snyder 7:18 I think by hearing different perspectives, you get to see how universal courage is. When we say courage, it's not just one thing, it's also moral, social, spiritual. And by looking at different versions of courage, you can understand that there's different ways to actually apply courage. Understanding that courage is not the absence of fear, also knowing that courage is not simply being a confident individual. That it's more complex than you may define courage, and so you can then apply it that way — by looking at different perspectives. Ted Robertson 7:53 Colonel, I'll address this one to you as well. Col. Mark George 7:56 Sure. Courage — we're talking about courage here, and there's a heavy focus on the combat side with this year's speakers. The thing that sticks out to me is that courage always involves a decision to do the hard thing. And that's what all of our speakers brought this year. They're showing how in different environments, whether it's in a prison cell in Hanoi or up on the Space Station or — there's a hard decision and the right thing is sometimes pretty obvious, but it doesn't mean it's easy. It does not mean it's easy to do. And so courage always involves a decision to do the right thing. Ted Robertson 8:39 Cadet Snyder? C1C Jaime Snyder 8:40 What he said I find to be very true — understanding that courage is not simply doing something physical, but also in a leadership role, especially — we're talking to cadets who are going to soon be commissioned officers. It's important to know that you need to make the right decision on and off the battlefield. Ted Robertson 8:58 So from your perspective as a cadet — and this one is just for you, Cadet Snyder — what does it mean to help shape an event like NCLS while you're still developing as a leader yourself? C1C Jaime Snyder 9:10 What I've seen through NCLS is taking the time to relax. Don't focus on the future and focus where you're at right now, and that's character development. So don't let the pursuit of tomorrow diminish the joy today. We all have this aspiration to graduate, throw our hats in the air, Thunderbirds fly over. But right now it's important to focus on character development as that's going to be important as future officers. Ted Robertson 9:35 That makes 1,000% very clear sense. But I do want to ask you, less than 100 days from the day you toss your hat — you're giving me a big smile right now — talk about how that feels right now for you. C1C Jaime Snyder 9:47 It's incredible, and a part of it is less daunting, because I can say this institution has really prepared me to commission, and so it's more liberating than daunting for me. Ted Robertson 9:58 Col. George, I'm going to direct this one straight to you, and this is an ask of you from the leadership perspective: How do we events Like NCLS fit into the broader effort to intentionally develop leaders of character here at the Academy. Col. Mark George 10:14 So I get the honor of leading the experiential and training division in the Center for Character and Leadership Development. So we're all about creating experiences and those opportunities for cadets to have different types of environments where they'll learn about character. And right now, NCLS is an opportunity to listen to where people's character was tested, how they overcame it. And then we also have different events that we try to put the cadets in where we'll actually test their character. And that could be on the challenge tower, it could be through our character labs where we're having discussions. NCLS is a huge part of that, because the planning cycle is so long. Ted Robertson 10:59 Cadet Snyder? C1C Jaime Snyder 11:00 Yes, sir. One thing I wanted to add on to that is with NCLS, one thing that makes this event the most unique experience that I've had is the fact that we get to engage in meaningful dialog. This isn't a brief. This is an experience for everyone who attends. I've had the opportunity to talk to Col. George's son, who aspires to possibly come to the Air Force Academy. So I don't want to say this is just for cadets, but it's also a promotion tool. And understand that what we do at NCLS is very important. And anyone who wants to attend can come and see what we're doing and how important it is. Col. Mark George 11:33 I want to thank you for that, by the way. He looks up to you, and that meant a lot. Ted Robertson 11:37 That's pretty visionary stuff. That's touching the next generation. That's fantastic. All right, this is for you both. When cadets look back on NCLS years from now, what do you hope they're going to remember feeling or being challenged to do differently? C1C Jaime Snyder 11:56 There is a very strong human component to NCLS, and with that, there's a human experience. Understanding that we're getting speakers and we'll see their bios that they're incredible. They have incredible stories of making the right decision when tensions were high, and getting to hear their stories and understand that they ultimately were no different than we are. Some of them were Air Force Academy graduates. Some graduated from the Naval Academy, West Point, other colleges, but they were young, 20-year-old people like we were as cadets. And so getting to understand where they're coming from, human experience is vital to NCLS, and how do we grow and understand where they're coming from? Ted Robertson 12:38 Col. George? Col. Mark George 12:39 Yeah, I think what I would want the cadets to remember is how these speakers made them feel. You're right, you won't remember every nugget of wisdom that was said. I just had the opportunity to talk with Gen. Scott Miller, and he was an incredible leader. And I feel like everything he was saying was gold. I wish I'd been able to write it down. But he really makes you feel like you understand just how important your role is going to be as a young leader. And when you come away as second lieutenants from this place, you've had incredible opportunities and now you're stepping out in the real world. I would think I want the cadets to remember that like, “Hey, what I do matters, and how I lead is very important to getting this mission done.” Ted Robertson 13:24 Lt. Col. Mark George and C1C Jaime Snyder, officer and cadet in charge of the 33rd NCLS. Congratulations on the event. Well done, and thank you for spending time here with us on the podcast today. Hearing from both the cadet perspective and the senior leadership behind NCLS makes one thing very clear: This symposium is intentionally designed not just to inspire but to prepare future leaders for moments when character will be tested. And that brings me to my first featured guest, a man whose life story embodies what combat and crisis-tested character truly means. Israel “DT” Del Toro, welcome to the podcast. It's an honor to be with you here at the National Character and Leadership Symposium. Senior Master Sgt. (Ret.) Israel Del Toro 14:18 Thank you, Ted. Thanks for having me. Good to see you again. Ted Robertson 14:21 Yes, it's not the first time we've gotten to spend some time together. Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 14:24 It's always great to talk to people, try and spread the word of the whole spark and the promise of my dad. Ted Robertson 14:30 The spark and the promises are the two things that really stood out to me about that interview — your heart and your soul man, from a very, very early age. Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 14:39 You know, losing my dad at 12, and then a year and a half later, losing my mom to a drunk driver, and being the oldest, you know, having to now kind of step up to be, like, the parent figure to my younger siblings. It was challenging. Ted Robertson 14:55 Out of all of that, you wound up as a retired — you are currently a retired senior master sergeant. You took responsibility for your siblings, as you say, after you were orphaned as a teenager, and ultimately in the service combat-wounded airmen, and you survived catastrophic injuries against incredible odds, and that did not keep you down. One of the things that you did was you became an Invictus Games gold medalist. You're now a national speaker, and you talk a lot about resilience and purpose. Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 15:27 Yes, sir. Yeah, Invictus, I won gold in shot put. It was pretty awesome. You know, everyone was just going nuts. Ted Robertson 15:37 You kind of make me feel like that was a soul-feeding, motivating time for you. Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 15:42 It was. At that time, I was probably one of the senior guys, kind of. Obviously, I was one of the senior guys, wounded guys on the team, and so a lot of people looked up to me. And sometimes I wish — people would say, “Man, it's great. You're such trailblazer.” You're sometimes like, “Man, I just want to be one of the guys. I just, I just want to be No. 10.” You know, everything's all done, and no one's focusing everything on me. But it's a burden that I'm willing to carry on to try and continue to help people. Ted Robertson 16:19 I want to linger here in your background a bit, because it's more than just impressive. I think impressive is pretty trite to describe what your background is. Let's start with before the Air Force and before combat, and just how your life demanded responsibility at such a young age. And what I want to ask is, how did stepping up for your family shape the leader that you became? Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 16:40 Well, I contribute that totally to my dad. I truly do. My dad was there. My dad, you know, I went everywhere with my dad. My dad — you know, he came from Mexico to this country, and he gave up a lot. You know, my family in Mexico is very wealthy, their ranchers and all that. He came here with nothing. And he always used to tell me, he's like, “Don't ever be envious of someone that's successful. Learn from them. Ask them questions.” He also used to tell me, “If you don't succeed, it's no one else's fault by yourself. Don't blame where you came from, where you grew up from, the situation. It is only your fault.” So my dad always had told me these little lessons and obviously the last lesson he gave me the night before he passed: Always take care of your family. And that just stayed with me, that kind of continued to shape me all throughout my life, all through my journey, at a young age to teenager to young adult to the military and to now, to this day, that really guided me to who I am. Now, it's like, I always hear people say, “Oh, man, I don't know if I can do it.” I was like, “Yeah, you can. You Just never know. You weren't ever put in that situation” I always believe — you always hear the fight or flight. “What are you gonna do?” I just fight, and I continue to fight. I just don't see the flight in me. And, you know, being the promise of take care of your family. Yes, I tell people, that originated with my family — my brothers and sisters. But throughout time it has evolved to now anyone I see that's having a hard time that needs maybe to hear a story or read a book or hear a journey to help them find that spark, because I see them now as my family. I see that as my family, as my mission now. Ted Robertson 18:50 Let's stay with spark for a minute. It's just one of my favorite things that you've ever talked about. You're down, you've been badly burned, you're worried about whether you're going to survive, and a medic is helping you out, and he does something for you. He says something to you. Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 19:07 Yeah, you know, the medic — I always like to say, you know, yes, I'm Air Force. Those guys were Army, and we bust each other's chops. But, we're all brothers and sisters, and we're down range, you know? We take care of each other, we tell stories, we talk about our family. So these guys knew what had happened in my past with my family. So when I'm, you know, laying there, after I coordinate getting air, and I started the adrenaline going down, I started getting scared. I was having a hard time breathing, and I just wanted to lay down and sleep. The medic came and reminded me, “DT, remember what you promised your son, that you'll never let him grow without his dad. Fight for your son. You got to fight for your son.” And he's just making me yell it. You use anything you can to keep your guy motivated, to help that spark go, keep going. And that's what he did. He found that spark to keep me going, to keep me fighting until that medevac came and to get me on that helicopter, to the FOB, to the hospital, and then to eventually San Antonio. Ted Robertson 20:24 After that injury, that's when the fight shifted. You had to get off the battlefield. You had to get that out of your head. You had to start battling for your recovery. So what did courage look like when progress seemed like it was slow and at one point nothing was guaranteed? Israel Del Toro 20:46 Yeah, it, you know, when he had a shift from now being on the battlefield to now a different kind of battle and your recovery, your way of life — it's difficult because you have people telling you this is what your life's going to be. You know, being told that you're never going to walk again. You got to be in a hospital for another year and a half, respirator for the rest of your life and your military career is pretty much over. You know, I like to say there's two choices again: Who you're going to be? Are you going to take the easy path, which is, I'm going to sit in a chair, accept what they say, hate life, you know, curse the world. Are you going to take the hard path where I want to fight? I'm going to show you I can do this. I'm going to prove that I still have value, and I want to come out of this ahead and show not only my son but the rest of the world. You stay positive, you find that spark, you will come out ahead. Ted Robertson 21:48 All right, last question on your background, because we're going to roll all this into why you're here and what messages you want to share with the cadets and the attendees that are here. You did something I don't think most human beings would even think about after that ordeal that you had been through all those years, everything. You reenlisted, and it wasn't just a medical milestone. It wasn't because you could, it was a conscious decision. So what internal commitment had to come first for you to make that decision. Israel Del Toro 22:22 You know, I guess it was, for me it was I loved my job. I knew I could teach, I could be prepare these next guys to [be] the next generation operators. Ted Robertson 22:38 You've never stopped being committed. You've never stopped. So it brings you to NCLS. This is the 33rd year for NCLS, and when you speak to cadets here, what message do you want them to take away with them? Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 22:53 I guess my message more is about that when you're in the military, no matter whatever happens to you, you still have a role to play. Even when I got hurt, did I miss being with my teammates? Yes, but now refocusing, OK, I'm here in this hospital, and I see all these wounded guys here as I guess I'm wounded also, but in my head is like I was still NCO in the Air Force. I still have a job to do. Yes, I'm hurt, I'm wounded, but the job of a leader is, no matter where you're at, is you try and take care of your troops. You try and make things better for them, even if you never see any of the benefits — that is your role. And so that's kind of what I want to leave with these guys that, you know, you're going to always have challenges throughout your career, but you've always got to remember it's not about you, it's about the guys under you to take care of you. You know, I had a group of cadets yesterday and they were just asking me about leadership. So you know what? The best way to be a great leader is to earn the respect of yourtroops. If you demand it, you're not a leader, but when you earned the respect and they'll die for you, that is the greatest feeling. You know, I gave an example of one of the best moments I had after my injury, is after I got hurt, they sent my replacement, and he comes in and obviously introduce him to the scout team, to the Army company, individuals in leadership, and then the SF team, and all these guys I'm supporting. And the guy comes in like, “Hey, I'm here to replace DT.” And all of them, “You can't replace DT.” And I told that was the best moment that that's the best moment of respect, because I had Army guys saying, “He's our guy.” And that's the thing I told them, it's like, when you get to that moment when your guys say, “Nah, he's our guy,” I was like, “He can't replace him.” That is where you've truly earned the respect of your troops. Ted Robertson 25:21 Israel, the only word that I can pull out of myself right now for your journey to describe it as “remarkable,” and you continue to give of yourself, and that's a wonderful thing. Your opportunity for a couple of final thoughts here, before we close out. Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 25:38 Final thoughts, man, putting me on the spot, aren't you. I guess my final thoughts would be, you can't do it on your own. I'm not here right now, because I did it my own. I did it. I'm never gonna say that I did. I had friends, I had family, I had my wife that were by my side all throughout my journey to medical individuals. And I had those dark times, and I'm going down that spot, that rabbit hole, they were there to pull me out of it. So I think it's like, you know, don't try and do it on your own. We all need help. You know, the goal is, don't be prideful. There's a reason pride is one of the seven deadly sins. But, you know, ask for help, ask for advice. It's not going to hurt you. If anything, it will make you stronger and better. That's parting thoughts for the individuals listening to this. Ted Robertson 26:53 Perfect. Israel “DT” Del Toro, what a privilege to sit with you again. Want to say thank you from all of us for your service and continuing to lead by the example, which is a very rich and broad and deep example. Your story reminds us, and should remind us, that courage doesn't end with just survival. It always continues in service to others. Israel, thank you for being here. Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 27:18 Thanks, Ted. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me again. Ted Robertson 27:21 Israel's story reminds us that crisis and moral injury don't always arrive on a schedule, and that leaders are often expected to navigate those moments without ever having been taught how. That's where our next conversation takes us: into the intentional work of preparing leaders before crisis arrives. Maj. Tara Holmes, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you with us as part of the National Character and Leadership Symposium. Maj. Tara Holmes 27:46 Thanks for having me; glad to be here. Ted Robertson 27:48 You are currently deputy chief of staff here at Headquarters USAFA. You are formerly chief of cadet development for CCLD, the Center for Character and Leadership development. By way of background, you flew. Maj. Tara Holmes 28:01 So I am a B-52 electronic warfare officer by trade, and then moved over into white jets. So instructed in the in the T-1 and I've kind of been in education and training for, I'd say, since about 2017. Ted Robertson 28:19 You also hold a Doctorate in Business and Management, and you are an AETC master instructor. I will let you explain AETC. Maj. Tara Holmes 28:27 Air Education Training Command, that's one of the that's our majcom that's responsible for education and training, and they have a pathway to become a master instructor. So I finished the qualifications for that while I was in white jets and working over at Squadron Officer School. Ted Robertson 28:46 So let's talk about your work with Task Force Hope. We'll talk about what Task Force Hope is, but you are and have been a developer and facilitator of Task Force Hope, which is a crisis and moral injury leadership workshop. Maj. Tara Holmes 29:01 Task Force Hope is about providing immediately useful tools to our workshop participants to prepare them to lead through crisis, whether that is no-kidding combat related, or whether that's crisis on the home front, going through stuff in life that's really hard. We work through a series of key concepts and exercises, through storytelling and participant engagement that hopefully provides our participants some self-awareness and some tools to recover as it deals with their relationships. Ted Robertson 29:39 We talked about this. There's a lot of nuance in what you're teaching these people. There's discernment in it. Who should you talk to, who you should trust with information that you want to share? Because ultimately, some of this becomes a pressure release valve, right? Maj. Tara Holmes 29:52 Yeah, so one of the key concepts that we talk about is worthiness, right? I think often people feel pressure to not share what they're going through because they don't think their problems are worthy of attention, whether theirs or someone else's. That's one thing that we spend a lot of time on. And like you said, you know, who to who to share with, and at what level, some people are more free with sharing than others, and that's OK. So we work through some frameworks that help illustrate how people can kind of work through those levels, or gain some self-awareness and some clarity around where they fall. Something that is a, you know, deep seated secret for you, maybe something that somebody else is willing to openly share, they just don't see it as that big of a deal. So it's definitely about self-awareness and learning some tools to help relieve some of the pressure and drain on our batteries, as it were, that comes from holding these things in. Ted Robertson 30:52 People who are attending the workshop are going to learn some things that they may not realize are draining their batteries. You're teaching them to discern what those are, and to be careful to try to avoid those. It sounds like an example to me of things that we don't realize we do, that drains us, right, instead of energizes us. Maj. Tara Holmes 31:10 So we use the kind of metaphor of a smartphone, right? So there are things that drain us, that are big, that we're taking a lot of energy to conceal the hard things that we're dealing with in our life. But then there's, like, the pesky background apps, there's the things that are always running in the background of our lives that drain our energy without us really even noticing it. You know, so for me as an officer, but also as a mom and a spouse, some of the things that are always draining my batteries are my to-do list, the laundry app, maybe social media apps. Sometimes I've probably spend way too much time reading the news these days. That's kind of always on for me. We have these big things that are draining our batteries, but then we have these like small things that are constantly going on, right? So Task Force Hope is about recognizing what those things are for us and then making a commitment to ourselves to make this space and time to recover. Ted Robertson 32:09 So that brings us to a really unique place. You kind of function at the intersection of character, leadership and development pretty much every day. So how do you define character when you're responsible for shaping it across an entire Cadet Wing. Maj. Tara Holmes 32:24 To me, character is the essence of who they are. It is how you show up day after day. It's the habits that you have. That's why, when you do something out of character, people are able to say that. You know, we talk about building character strengths as building blocks towards certain virtues. And virtues is really excellence of character. So it's easy to talk about how to be an excellent athlete, or how to be an excellent academic, right? And that's one of our core values, is being excellent. Well, how do you have excellent character? It's really about leveraging your character strengths in a way that can lead you to be more virtuous, and that's the goal. Ted Robertson 33:05 You've served, both operationally and as an instructor. Tell me how those things shape the way you think about preparing leaders not just to perform but to endure. Maj. Tara Holmes 33:19 What comes to mind is the importance of training and building those habits. We're, you know, in the previous question, we talked about it in terms of character. You know, you can, you can use any kind of training. It's about building readiness, right? And being able to build those habits so that when you are faced with a challenge, you have a way to work through the challenge, right? That really came out for me, both operationally and as an instructor. So operationally, you rely on your training to get your job done, and then as an instructor, you're helping others build those habits so that one day when your students are faced with challenges, they can rely on their training as well. Ted Robertson 34:01 We've talked a bit about your experiences and how they shape the way you think about preparing leaders, not just to perform but to endure. And now let's bring it right down to the direct connection between Task Force Hope and why you are here talking about this program to attendees at NCLS. When we talk about Task Force Hope, it's a program that is really designed to prepare leaders to navigate crisis and recover from both emotional and moral injury. What can you tell me about a gap that a workshop like this fills, that traditional leadership education sometimes or often misses? Maj. Tara Holmes 34:38 Task Force Hope is preventative in nature. It's training to prevent people from letting their burdens get the best of them so that they can show up. They have the tools to show up fully charged when stuff hits the van. And not only that they do that for themselves, but then they can help their teammates or their subordinates also get there. It's self-awareness, because we all perform self-care differently, and what you need to recharge your batteries is different from the way that I would do it. So it's being intentional and having some tools to be able to identify what works for you and then how to make space in your life, and building that commitment to yourself, to make that space so that the next time that you face a crisis, you're not facing it at 10%, you're full up, you're ready to go. So it's that sustained self-care, if that's what you want to call it. And it's important to say that you know, in a 75-minute session, we're really doing our best to provide exposure to key concepts and these tools. What we hope is that people walk out with the start of something. It's not it's not the end of their work to be done. Ted Robertson 35:54 How often do you hear the question, “Why didn't I hear this earlier in my career?” Maj. Tara Holmes 36:00 Every workshop. Last year, after the workshop, we had a 1970-something graduate say that exact thing. For me personally, I had four people say something, you know, “Hey, I was a cadet here in '90-something, '80-something, 2000-something. And, you know, I really wish that I would have had this earlier.” So that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to bring it as early as we can. Ted Robertson 36:26 OK, so our last question of our visit, if cadets take just one lesson from Task Force Hope and NCLs this year, what is your hope for that lesson to be? Maj. Tara Holmes 36:39 My hope is that they're worth it. No problem is too big or too small to be dealt with, and like we talked about earlier, I think often people keep things to themselves because they feel like they shouldn't bother others, or there's their supervisors or their teammates with what's going on in their lives. And that's a drain. Like, that's a drain on the system. It eats up your energy, right? But our cadets are worth it. Whatever they're dealing with, big or small, is worthy of being addressed. I hope that's the takeaway, and that we all deal with things, right? We don't always know what other people are dealing with. Ted Robertson 37:22 Maj. Holmes. Thank you for the work you're doing to prepare future leaders, not just to lead in moments of clarity, but to stand firm in moments of crisis. We appreciate you being here. Maj. Tara Holmes 37:32 Thanks, Ted. Ted Robertson 37:33 That focus on preservation, resilience and moral courage brings us to our next conversation, one shaped by combat, captivity and a life of service under the most demanding conditions. Coming up next, my conversation with Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Edward Mechenbier. Gen. Mechenbier, welcome to the podcast. It is a huge honor having you here, sir. Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 37:56 I hope you feel that way in a half hour so well, Ted Robertson 37:59 Well, the conversation does promise to be interesting, because your life is… interesting. That was a pregnant pause, sir. Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 38:07 Yeah, I've enjoyed it. It's different. Ted Robertson 38:11 Just to sort of frame things, you retired as a major general, and what year was that, sir, Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 38:15 2004 Ted Robertson 38:16 And you were USAFA Class of '64. You're a Vietnam-era pilot, having flown F-4s, you were shot down on your 113th combat mission, but that was you also your 80th over North Vietnam. OK, prisoner of war. Then for almost those entire six years following that, being shot down. You come with 3,600 flying hours across lots of different aircraft. Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 38:42 I was privileged fly either for primary capability or for familiarization with 43 different airplanes. Ted Robertson 38:49 And now you describe yourself as a lifelong advocate for veterans and public service. Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 38:56 Well, yeah, I mean, I go to a couple prisons in Ohio, and “work with” is probably overstating my role. Veterans who are incarcerated for long periods of time. But my role is just to go there, spend some time, shoot the breeze with them, no agenda, no desired learning objective and let them know that somebody outside knows that they're there. Ted Robertson 39:19 What I want to do is spend some time in your background. All right, I want to start with combat and captivity and how that tests leadership in its most extreme forms. And this is in course in keeping with the theme of NCLS here, what did character mean to you when circumstances were entirely beyond your control? Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 39:38 The Vietnamese kept us in small groups of one and two or three guys. I mean, we never really until near the end and later on when we got a little organization. But it got very down, very personal, when at one time, I was in a cell with four guys, three Class of 1964 Air Force Academy graduates and one poor Oklahoma State University graduate, and amongst the four of us, we had a senior ranking officer. And of course, you got the same rank, you go alphabetical. And so we made Ron Bliss the senior ranking officer in our room. We had a communication system. We had guidelines that, you know, which were basically consistent with the code of conduct. You know, name, rank, serial number, date of birth, don't answer further questions. Keep faith with your fellow positions. That was the key. Keep faith. Never do anything that you'd be embarrassed to tell somebody you did. Ted Robertson 40:34 What you're explaining is how different leadership looks, and even how you describe it, how different it is from command. So now it comes down to trust and accountability and courage, and how do those show up in those conditions? Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 40:51 It was really a matter of, we always knew we were still in the fight. That was one thing that was with us, and so you just kind of conducted yourself with, OK, I'm not going to let myself be used. Now, we also knew that the more you resisted pushed back, the less likely they were to make you go meet an antiwar delegation or write a confession or do something else like that. So they tend to pick on, if you will, the low-hanging fruit or the easier guy to get to. So we always wanted to set the bar just a little bit out of their reach. Ted Robertson 41:25 All right, having gone through all of that, it really can change people quite profoundly. So when you look back at it, what leadership lessons stayed with you long after you got out of captivity? Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 41:39 In the movie Return of Honor. Capt. Mike McGrath, Navy guy, describes the guys in their ability to resist torture and do things. And that's what you learn. Everybody's got a breaking point. If mine's here and somebody else's is there, that doesn't make me better or worse than them. So you learn to appreciate the talents and the weaknesses. If you know the foibles, the cracks in everybody around you and not to exploit them, but to understand them, and then to be the kind of leader that that they need. Ted Robertson 42:12 Sir, one of the recurring themes when you're discussing leadership with leaders right is knowing something about each of your people so that you can relate to them in a way that that works for them and motivates them. Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 42:23 Yeah. Mark Welch, who's also a graduate and he is a chief of staff of the Air Force, always had a saying: “If you don't know what's going on, it's because you didn't ask.” Ted Robertson 42:32 Now we're going to roll all that into your long journey between captivity and your visit here to NCLS this year. When you're speaking to the cadets at this year's event, what's your main hope? What do you hope they understand about courage before they even ever face combat? Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 42:54 Well, courage is a reaction to a clear and present threat. Nobody knows how they're gonna — know he's gonna say, OK, I'm gonna go to Vietnam and I want to get shot down, and when the Vietnamese capture me, I'm going to give them a middle finger and I'm going to be the meanest bad ass and hardest-to-break prisoner. Yeah, it's how you respond to the to the immediate perception of bodily harm or being used or something else like that. So courage is, yeah, it just happens. It's not something that you can put in a package and say, “OK, I've got courage.” It's how you respond to the situation, because you might respond quite differently than what you think. Ted Robertson 43:35 And I have to say, you presented your story and you delivered your message in kind of a unique way. You drew from some contemporary references, specifically three clips from a movie that you like, that I was curious. How did you sum up your entire life in three movie clips from Madagascar? How did you do that? Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 43:57 Well, the three movie clips — when I watched the movie, I was looking at it, I have got two favorite movies. Madagascar is one, and the other is a Kelsey Grammer movie, Down Periscope. I mean, I think that is a perfect study in in leadership. But in the movie Madagascar, the premise was penguins can't fly, but yet it opens up with them applying resource, innovation imagination, and they eventually get this airplane to fly. OK, great. Success. Well, like everything else in life, things go wrong, and you got to have, No. 1, a backup plan, an exit ramp or a control mechanism for the disaster that's pending. So that's the second movie clip we saw. And then the third one was towards the end of the movie, when the crash landing has happened and the skipper asks for an accounting, and he's told that all passengers are accounted for, except two. And he says, that's the number I can live with. And the message there is, you go through life — you're going to have successes, but you're going to have failures, and failure has a cost, and it's not always pleasant, but that's OK, because that's life. Ted Robertson 45:15 How do you explain how leaders can prepare themselves morally and mentally for moments they can't predict or control. Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 45:25 Watch movies like Madagascar and Down Periscope. You know, there's a breadth of unintentional, if you will, guidance on how to be a leader, if you know where to look or if you're looking for it. I mean, that's part of the whole progress program at the Academy. Nobody's going to say, OK, here's a scenario, lead these resources to a proper conclusion. It's kind of like, OK, here's the situation. What do we do? What can we do? What can't we do? It's like, in my presentation, I talk about being able to run across a pasture in nine seconds, in 10 seconds, but if the bull can do it, you're in trouble. So you got to realign your thinking, you got to realign your goals and you got to realign the application of resources. So that's the leadership part, right there. It's a realization of what you can and what you can't do. It's a realization of what you, your people, your resources, can and can't do. It's a realization of what the technology you have at your disposal to do your mission can and can't do. So it's all about workarounds and being flexible. And then the other thing is, we live in a world that just seems to be everything's got a prescription and a protocol on exactly how to do everything. Doesn't work that way. You got to be able to go left and right. You got to be able to be a little imaginative. Ted Robertson 46:42 What parting thought did you leave the cadets with? Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 46:45 That failure is part of life. It's not death. And I'm part of an organization called American 300 — we go around and talk to young enlisted people and all the services to get them to understand that failure is a learning opportunity. It's not a dagger in the heart, and don't be afraid or ashamed to try, because if you don't, you'll never know what your true potential is. So with the cadets, we close with that last part from the movie Madagascar that basically said, OK, success comes with a price. Be aware and accept it. Ted Robertson 47:23 All right, we've got to close it out here, but recap, if you would one more time that message that you want cadets to leave here with from having heard you speak. Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 47:32 You are now a living, breathing, viable, productive part of our United States Air Force. You bring talents that are unique. Apply them, but understand that they're all very transitory, and you have part of a larger community. If you stick with a community rather than the “I did,” “I want,” I have,” you'll go a long way. Ted Robertson 47:54 All right, and stepping outside of that very briefly for your final thoughts, what would you like to leave listeners with today. Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 48:01 Be proud of the young men and women who are in our military now, not just those at the Air Force Academy. You know, our whole military structure has changed over the years. You know, it's a dynamic world. You got to be flexible and embrace change. We're so reluctant to change. Change is fine, except when you try to change me, is the old saying, but we all have to change. We have to be part of the world in which we live. Ted Robertson 48:26 Gen. Mechenbier, I want to thank you from all of us for being here sharing those leadership lessons of yours and a lifetime of service that will continue to shape others — future leaders — for a very, very long time to come. We appreciate you very much. Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 48:43 Thank you much. Ted Robertson 48:44 Our final conversation brings us to leadership at the strategic level, where decisions affect institutions, alliances and the nation itself. Capt. Charles Plumb, welcome to the podcast today, sir. Capt. J. Charles Plumb 48:56 Thanks, Ted. Appreciate being here. Ted Robertson 48:59 It is a privilege to have you. You retired as a Navy captain in 1991 and you have not slowed down, not one inch since. We're going to talk a little bit about the work that you're doing in some very interesting spaces. And what informs all of that. Naval Academy, Class of '64. Capt. J. Charles Plumb 49:15 Yep, the Great Class of '64. Ted Robertson 49:17 The great —that's how you express class pride? Capt. J. Charles Plumb 49:20 Everybody knows the Great Class of '64. Ted Robertson 49:23 So you are an Annapolis man. Capt. J. Charles Plumb 49:25 I am, in fact. Ted Robertson 49:26 No doubt. And a pilot. You flew F-4 Phantoms, and you are a Vietnam-era pilot. You spent most of your time over North Vietnam. Sometimes you got sent to South Vietnam, depending on what was going on. But you said that you have flown 74 combat missions. Capt. J. Charles Plumb 49:45 Actually 74 and a half, Ted. I have one more takeoff and I have landings. Ted Robertson 49:50 We should remember that, because it's a very important part of your life we haven't talked about yet. Since you got out of captivity, and then you retired a few years later, you became a published author and a speaker, and as such, you have been to every state, several countries, 5,000 presentations you've delivered in the leadership and character development space. Is there any reason you should not be here at NCLS? Capt. J. Charles Plumb 50:24 Well, I appreciate that. You know, this is a great symposium, and I'm really proud to contribute to it. Ted Robertson 50:32 Captain, you are a former POW. Capt. J. Charles Plumb 50:36 Yes, I was shot down on my 75th mission and captured, tortured and spent the next 2,103 days in communist prison camps. Ted Robertson 50:49 You said you got moved around a lot. Capt. J. Charles Plumb 50:52 We did. I was in six different camps, and some of those camps more than once. We never really understood why. We kind of suspected that they wanted to try to deny any fraternization with their guards, and they wanted to keep us on our toes, because they recognized that being military guys, we were going to have leadership, and we were going to have organization and community and we were going to organize, to fight them, and they didn't want that. So they moved us around and kind of shuffled us up, which didn't work. We always had a military organization in every camp that I ever went to. Ted Robertson 51:31 You found ways to support each other. You found ways to have a leadership structure, even in captivity. Capt. J. Charles Plumb 51:39 We were all fighter pilots or air crews and most of us were we, you know, we had 10 Air Force Academy grads from '64 in five Naval Academy grads from '64 and so we had in a lot of other academy grads. I don't remember how many, but probably 70 total academy grads. And so, you know, we were, we were dedicated. We were lifers. We were, you know, we were very focused guys, which helped out a lot that we knew a lot about military leadership. Ted Robertson 52:11 You grew up in the Midwest, and you married a Midwestern girl. Capt. J. Charles Plumb 52:15 I did, my high school sweetheart the day after I graduated from Annapolis, we got married in the chapel, and my buddies were holding up their swords as we came out of the chapel. So it was a beautiful day. Ted Robertson 52:27 Let's go back to how you found your way to the Naval Academy. Capt. J. Charles Plumb 52:32 I was a farm kid from Kansas. Never seen the ocean, never been out of the four states of Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri. Never been in an airplane, and I needed an education. Found that the Naval Academy offered me an education. Ted Robertson 52:50 Outside of Air Force Academy circles, you probably already know that we think of, you know, salty sea dog sailors when we think of people going in the Navy, but you chose aviation. Capt. J. Charles Plumb 53:02 I did. As a kid, I would see these Piper Cubs fly over and I was fascinated by flight, and wondered if I'd ever be able to ride in an airplane. That was my thought when I was a kid. I didn't have any hopes of ever being a pilot, you know, let alone a fighter pilot. That was, I was out of the realm. Nobody, as I grew up, ever told me that I could do that, or I should do that, or, you know, it would be a hope of mine to ever pilot an airplane. But I went to the Naval Academy and found out that was one of the options, and I took advantage of that option. Ted Robertson 53:43 Yeah, and it led you, of course, to over North Vietnam, and the rest is that part of your history Capt. J. Charles Plumb 53:51 Launched on the aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk on my wife's birthday, the 5th of November, wave goodbye to her, and promised her I'd be back in eight months. I didn't make it. Ted Robertson 54:04 Hard. Very hard story to hear. Let's talk about all of that informing your presentation now, again, 5,000 of these delivered in the leadership and character development space, but you talk a lot about, in your presentation — and you keynoted here at NCLS — the mental game side of this, the integrity, the choices that you have to make, and character that sort of frames all of that. Capt. J. Charles Plumb 54:38 My message to the cadets, and really to most of my audiences, is around challenge and adversity. And I tell the cadets that they work awfully hard trying to get a degree. They study, they go to computers, they read books all to get a degree. And what I point out to them is that more important than the degree that they will get from the Air Force Academy is a character that they build while they are here. That the integrity first, you know, is part of their motto. And if, in fact, they can learn and live that integrity, if they can learn and live the commitment that they have, if they can learn in and live these kind of ethereal things, the things that you can't measure, things you can't define, the things that, you know, that crop up in your in your mind, in the back of your mind, are more important than the lessons they learn from a computer. And so that's kind of my message. Ted Robertson 55:49 You know, we're in a leadership laboratory here. The art and the science is character development. And you're talking about a kind of character that leads people to make good decisions and make those decisions with integrity in mind. How did that play into your captivity and getting you through that? Capt. J. Charles Plumb 56:09 You know, of course, I studied leadership at the Naval Academy, and I think that my period of experience more than teaching me anything, it validated what I had learned. And the whole idea — and I love the fact that this is called, you know, the Character and Leadership Symposium, because lots of times you see leadership without character, that's a negative kind of leadership. And if a leader does not have character, he doesn't last very long, and he's not very effective. And so if you can keep your character up front, the leadership can follow easily. And that's pretty much what we had in the prison camps. Several of the qualities of leadership that I promote are the things that almost came natural in a prison camp. First of all, we had to find a focus, a reason. We had to find, you know — and that was developed by our leadership in the prison camp. Return with honor — that was our motto, return with honor. And we all rallied around that. Ted Robertson 57:22 So all of that said, you're standing here in front of a really big group of people as a keynote speaker, lot of cadets, mostly cadets, yeah. Capt. J. Charles Plumb 57:31 Now there were cadets. I'm speaking on a panel with Ed Mechenbier, my good buddy, and we're on a panel with mostly cadets. The first presentation, the keynote was by invitation only. So there were a number of civilians in the audience, number of cadets. There were Naval Academy midshipmen in my audience today. And we had ROTC people, and, you know, from all over the country. So it was quite a wide audience. Ted Robertson 58:04 Quite a wide audience. And so if we were just focusing on what you leave with cadets, what do you want them to take away from their experience today? Capt. J. Charles Plumb 58:15 I hope they understand my message, that more important than the degree that they graduate with, is the character that they graduate with, and the importance of the integrity that that they learned here, because that was vital in the prison camp, is integrity. We had to have each other's back, and when we when we finally were released, we refused to be released until all the sick, injured and enlisted men had gone home, and it was a question of integrity, is a question that this is the right thing to do. It's not the easy thing to do. Largely, the integrity thing to do is not the easiest thing to do, and that's what I wanted to leave with the cadets. In addition, I want them to know that regardless of what situation they're in, they still have a choice, and their choice is the way they respond to the surrounding adversity situation that they're in. Ted Robertson 59:21 An Annapolis grad of '64, Midwest kid from Kansas who makes it into the cockpit, and like you said, 74 and a half flights, then some time in captivity, then to a published author with thousands of presentations all over the country, and some in in other countries. What final thoughts would you like to leave today, sir? Capt. J. Charles Plumb 59:47 Well, you know, I think I've already told you, you know, you're a great interviewer, Ted, and I appreciate your questions. I think, finally, this whole idea of self-determination and I think that we all, and not just the cadets, but graduates and families and business people, families. You know that we all have choices, and sometimes when we deny the choice and give up that ability to make our life better for ourselves. And you know, we do it sometimes even when we're not even thinking about it. It's just automatic to blame somebody else for the problem, and in doing so, we give away that choice. Ted Robertson 1:00:34 Don't give away the choice. Yeah, build that character and stick by your integrity all the time. Capt. J. Charles Plumb, what a privilege it is to meet you, sir. Glad that you're here at NCLs and keynoting like you are, and I do hope that our paths cross again. Capt. J. Charles Plumb 1:00:52 Ted, thank you very much. I appreciate your willingness to tell my story. Thanks for that. Ted Robertson 1:00:57 You're welcome, sir. Thank you. Ted Robertson Close As we've heard throughout these conversations, courage isn't a single moment. It's a lifelong practice, from cadets just beginning their journey to leaders shaped by combat and crisis to senior commanders responsible for forces and futures. Character is tested when certainty disappears and it's revealed by how we choose to lead. That's the challenge of the National Character and Leadership Symposium, and it's a challenge that extends far beyond these walls. I'm Ted Robertson, thank you for joining me for our Long Blue Line Podcast Network coverage of the 33rd National Character and Leadership Symposium. This podcast was recorded on Saturday, Feb. 21, 2026. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
In our Season 4 retrospective, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 and Wyatt Hornsby, the Association & Foundation's senior vice president of marketing and communications, revisit the clips that stuck with them. - “Mind. Body. Spirit.” - “What can I do for others?” - “Be humble. Be credible. Be approachable.” These aren't just soundbites. They're leadership gold. This episode will remind you why these conversations matter. TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS FROM THIS EPISODE Lead from mind, body, and spirit Sustainable leadership requires caring for mental clarity, physical stamina, and spiritual/emotional grounding. Leadership is a daily practice, not a position Being a leader shows up in consistent habits and choices, not just in moments when you have the spotlight or a title. Mental health fuels clarity and creativity Protecting your mindset and mental health enables focus, problem-solving, and innovation. Physical readiness underpins reliability Long hours and high-demand environments require physical energy and stamina so you can show up for others when it counts. Spiritual/emotional health anchors your “why” Knowing your purpose and values helps you make grounded decisions and stay steady in pressure or uncertainty. Shift from “Why me?” to “What can I do for others?” Transform challenges by asking how you can serve your team and community, rather than focusing on personal hardship. Selfless leadership unlocks others' potential When you lead by example and create opportunities for others to excel, people gain confidence and stretch toward their own “superhero” potential. Humility, credibility, and approachability are core leadership traits Effective leaders are humble about their limits, credible in what they say and do, and approachable enough that others feel safe coming to them. Trust and respect are earned, not assumed Especially with large teams and many colleagues, you must earn trust and respect through consistent behavior, not rely on rank or title. Leadership is ongoing presence and intention Leadership “doesn't start with a title”; it's about showing up with intention and care, being present when it matters, and putting others first over the long term. CHAPTERS 0:00:07 Introduction & Episode Setup 0:00:54 Intro – Leadership as Daily Practice (Tanji Johnson Bridgeman) 0:01:19 Mind, Body, Spirit in Leadership 0:02:06 Reflection on Intentional, Holistic Leadership 0:02:39Intro – Selfless Leadership & Inspiring Others (Dave Harden) 0:02:59 Transforming Challenges & Leading Selflessly 0:03:26 Reflection on Timeless, Presence-Based Leadership 0:04:03 Intro – Humble, Credible, Approachable (Rep. August Pfluger) 0:04:30 Core Leadership Tenets in Public Service 0:05:37 Reflection on Trust, Respect, and Credibility 0:06:13 Season Four Recap & Invitation to Explore Past Episodes 0:06:57 New Biweekly, Year-Round Schedule Announcement 0:07:45 Closing – Core Leadership Themes & Thank-Yous ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership. I'm Naviere Walkewicz. Wyatt Hornsby: 0:10 And I'm Wyatt Hornsby, and today we're hitting pause for a moment and we're going to look back. Naviere Walkewicz 0:14 Yes, this episode is our Season 4 retrospective. We're revisiting some of the leadership moments that really stayed with us long after the microphones were turned off. Wyatt Hornsby 0:25 We went back through the season and selected three clips among many amazing ones, each from a guest who brought a different perspective on leadership, but all with a common thread: responsibility to people. Naviere Walkewicz 0:36 Absolutely. We're going to play each clip, Wyatt and I will react to it and talk about why those still matter. Wyatt Hornsby 0:43 And at the end of the show, we'll also look ahead. We've got upcoming guests to share and a couple of important changes and exciting changes to how Long Blue Leadership will be published going forward. Naviere Walkewicz 0:54 Absolutely. So let's get started. All right. Our first clip comes from Tanji Johnson Bridgeman, Class of '97. Her episode stood out because of how she directly spoke about leadership being a daily practice. Now as you listen, pay close attention to how she talks about the health of your mind, body and spirit, and how those together form the foundation of great leaders. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 1:19 Mind, body, spirit. Why is that important? Because in anything, any philosophies that we adopt, we have to really see where it's important. So when you think of what is an officer — what is a leader going to have to do with their mind? This is where they have to have clarity. It's going to help with focus, creativity, to innovate new solutions. And so we need to be able to prioritize our mindset and our mental health. And then there's the body, right? So a lot of us are going to be going on deployments. We're going to work long hours. Our body is what's going to give us the fuel and energy and the stamina to get through a day. It's literally bringing our energy. And then you think about the spirit, and this one is really special, and it's probably the most neglected. So when you think about the spirit, this is where you're going to anchor in with your emotional health. What is your purpose? What is your why? Wyatt Hornsby 2:06 That is such a great insight. And what really resonates with me, Naviere, is Tanji's emphasis on health and wellness is a critical component of leading others — that integration. Naviere Walkewicz 2:16 Yes, well, you know, we both really take our health and wellness seriously, but I think to the level that she really talked about it being — she really had this quiet confidence, and I think that also spoke volumes, right? It's not just about being physical, but being in your mind, body and spirit really well. And so I think that when we think about how that plays into being really intentional, people will experience you differently. Wyatt Hornsby 2:39 All right. Our second clip comes from Dave Harden, Class of '95. Dave brought perspective shaped by high-stakes environments where leadership is about inspiring others. Listen for how he connects looking outside of yourself, for your team with leading them to their own greatness. Dave Harden 2:55 If we can transform, if we can pause, if we can look up right and see the faith and the what if and not say, say, Why is this happening to me? But what can I do with it? What can I do for others? How can I connect in a meaningful way? You will transform your life. You'll transform your leadership, and you'll transform the people around you, because they'll be inspired to be superheroes in their own right. Naviere Walkewicz 3:26 Wow. That was a very powerful clip. And I just remember his conversation being really powerful, because there were so many moments where we talked about, you know, when you're really leaning into the fire. But this particular clip — what spoke to me, Wyatt — he was saying, if you lead selflessly and by example, looking for others to have opportunities to excel, they actually find the confidence in what they're able to give and do and striving for more. Thought that's really powerful, for sure. Wyatt Hornsby 3:51 Agree Naviere, and that's really timeless leadership. Whether you're leading in uniform or outside of it, people trust leaders who are present when it counts. And Dave really personifies that. Naviere Walkewicz 4:03 Yes, our third clip comes from Congressman August Pfluger, Class of 2000. When we spoke to the congressman, he brought a unique perspective, one shaped by military service and now public service. His leadership journey didn't end when he took off the uniform. It simply evolved. And this clip reflects that sense of responsibility to those one leads. To do that successfully means establishing credibility. Let's roll the clip. August Pfluger 4:30 Growing up professionally in a fighter squadron, there were three tenants that they, even though I didn't go to weapons school, they teach you: that's to be humble, credible and approachable. I mean, think about that. Those are the core tenants of who our lead warriors are. And that is not what you see. When you think of politicians. You think, Well, they're braggadocios and annoying, and, you know, OK, I hope I don't fall into that category. I need to do some self-reflection every once while, but, but I've got a staff of almost 40 people, and I have 434 other colleagues that you have to work with. So you better believe that you've got to be humble, because there are people who are better than you in every category, you better believe that being approachable in this job is really important, because people are going to come to you and they're going to need something, or you're going to need something from them, and if you don't have the credibility of what you're talking about or what you're leading, then you're not going to get anything done. Wyatt Hornsby 5:37 Great insights from the congressman. And that's really one of those leadership truths that carries across every domain for him now in Washington, DC, and the congressman is reminding us that leadership doesn't start with a title. Naviere Walkewicz 5:50 I really appreciate that. I think specifically when he said he had over 400 colleagues, that really stood out to me about not leading with the title, but really leading with your virtue and being there. And so I love the fact that he talked about earning trust respect, and then with that comes credibility. Wyatt Hornsby 6:06 And being approachable. Naviere Walkewicz 6:08 Being approachable. Yes, we see him doing that all the time. Wyatt Hornsby 6:13 All right, so let's look ahead. As we close out this retrospective, we also want to take a moment to look forward, but before we look forward, let me just say that these were three conversations among so many great ones from Season 4. Naviere Walkewicz 6:26 It was hard to choose, wasn't it wise? Wyatt Hornsby 6:28 It was so hard to choose. And we encourage you, if you have not listened to all of Season 4, check them out, because there's so many wonderful guests here. Thanks for the great job you did hosting those conversations. Naviere Walkewicz 6:40 Always my pleasure. Always my pleasure. In fact, gosh, going back, I think, all the way to Season 1, there's always someone, a guest, that our graduates and other listeners, and gosh, our viewers can really resonate with. There's some wonderful leadership lesson down there. Wyatt Hornsby 6:53 And easy to find. You can you can get our episodes anywhere you get your podcast. Naviere Walkewicz 6:57 Yes, we have some outstanding guests coming up. These are leaders from across different fields, and we're excited to bring them into our Long Blue Leadership conversation. Wyatt Hornsby 7:06 And we also want to share a couple of important and very exciting changes to how Long Blue Leadership will be published. Naviere Walkewicz 7:12 Yes, we are moving away from seasons, and we're shifting to biweekly, year-round release schedule. This is so you get Long Blue Leadership all the time, year round. Right to you where you are. Wyatt Hornsby 7:23 Very exciting, and that means more consistent leadership conversations. No long breaks, just ongoing dialog. Naviere Walkewicz 7:30 Absolutely you just go to longblueleadership.org to find your Long Blue Leadership conversation. So going forward, we'll publish our annual retrospective, released each December, a dedicated moment where white and I come together to reflect on the leadership lessons we heard throughout the year. Wyatt Hornsby 7:45 Very exciting, and Season Four reminded us that leadership isn't about having all the answers. It's about showing up with intention and care, being humble, being approachable and putting others first. Naviere Walkewicz 7:57 We're grateful to every guest who shared their perspective and to you for being part of this incredible community. Wyatt Hornsby 8:03 And Naviere, while we're at it too, let's go ahead and thank Ted, our incredible producer of Long Blue Leadership. Naviere Walkewicz 8:09 Thanks, Ted. We appreciate you so much. This doesn't happen without your magic. So thank you very much. Wyatt Hornsby 8:13 Yeah, thank you, Ted and everybody. Thanks for listening. I'm Wyatt Hornsby. Naviere Walkewicz 8:18 And I'm Naviere Walkewicz. We'll see you on Long Blue Leadership. KEYWORDS Mind, body, spirit, leadership, daily practice, mental health, physical health, spiritual health, wellness, emotional health, purpose, why, selfless leadership, service, inspiring others, transformation, high-stakes environments, team, connection, trust, respect, credibility, humility, humble, approachable, virtuous leadership, public service, military service, fighter squadron, colleagues, responsibility to people, presence, intention, care, confidence, long blue leadership, podcast, retrospective, season four, biweekly schedule, year-round release, annual retrospective, leadership lessons, graduates, listeners, community The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
In our Season 4 retrospective, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 and Wyatt Hornsby, the Association & Foundation's senior vice president of marketing and communications, revisit the clips that stuck with them. - “Mind. Body. Spirit.” - “What can I do for others?” - “Be humble. Be credible. Be approachable.” These aren't just soundbites. They're leadership gold. This episode will remind you why these conversations matter. TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS FROM THIS EPISODE Lead from mind, body, and spirit Sustainable leadership requires caring for mental clarity, physical stamina, and spiritual/emotional grounding. Leadership is a daily practice, not a position Being a leader shows up in consistent habits and choices, not just in moments when you have the spotlight or a title. Mental health fuels clarity and creativity Protecting your mindset and mental health enables focus, problem-solving, and innovation. Physical readiness underpins reliability Long hours and high-demand environments require physical energy and stamina so you can show up for others when it counts. Spiritual/emotional health anchors your “why” Knowing your purpose and values helps you make grounded decisions and stay steady in pressure or uncertainty. Shift from “Why me?” to “What can I do for others?” Transform challenges by asking how you can serve your team and community, rather than focusing on personal hardship. Selfless leadership unlocks others' potential When you lead by example and create opportunities for others to excel, people gain confidence and stretch toward their own “superhero” potential. Humility, credibility, and approachability are core leadership traits Effective leaders are humble about their limits, credible in what they say and do, and approachable enough that others feel safe coming to them. Trust and respect are earned, not assumed Especially with large teams and many colleagues, you must earn trust and respect through consistent behavior, not rely on rank or title. Leadership is ongoing presence and intention Leadership “doesn't start with a title”; it's about showing up with intention and care, being present when it matters, and putting others first over the long term. CHAPTERS 0:00:07 Introduction & Episode Setup 0:00:54 Intro – Leadership as Daily Practice (Tanji Johnson Bridgeman) 0:01:19 Mind, Body, Spirit in Leadership 0:02:06 Reflection on Intentional, Holistic Leadership 0:02:39Intro – Selfless Leadership & Inspiring Others (Dave Harden) 0:02:59 Transforming Challenges & Leading Selflessly 0:03:26 Reflection on Timeless, Presence-Based Leadership 0:04:03 Intro – Humble, Credible, Approachable (Rep. August Pfluger) 0:04:30 Core Leadership Tenets in Public Service 0:05:37 Reflection on Trust, Respect, and Credibility 0:06:13 Season Four Recap & Invitation to Explore Past Episodes 0:06:57 New Biweekly, Year-Round Schedule Announcement 0:07:45 Closing – Core Leadership Themes & Thank-Yous ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership. I'm Naviere Walkewicz. Wyatt Hornsby: 0:10 And I'm Wyatt Hornsby, and today we're hitting pause for a moment and we're going to look back. Naviere Walkewicz 0:14 Yes, this episode is our Season 4 retrospective. We're revisiting some of the leadership moments that really stayed with us long after the microphones were turned off. Wyatt Hornsby 0:25 We went back through the season and selected three clips among many amazing ones, each from a guest who brought a different perspective on leadership, but all with a common thread: responsibility to people. Naviere Walkewicz 0:36 Absolutely. We're going to play each clip, Wyatt and I will react to it and talk about why those still matter. Wyatt Hornsby 0:43 And at the end of the show, we'll also look ahead. We've got upcoming guests to share and a couple of important changes and exciting changes to how Long Blue Leadership will be published going forward. Naviere Walkewicz 0:54 Absolutely. So let's get started. All right. Our first clip comes from Tanji Johnson Bridgeman, Class of '97. Her episode stood out because of how she directly spoke about leadership being a daily practice. Now as you listen, pay close attention to how she talks about the health of your mind, body and spirit, and how those together form the foundation of great leaders. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 1:19 Mind, body, spirit. Why is that important? Because in anything, any philosophies that we adopt, we have to really see where it's important. So when you think of what is an officer — what is a leader going to have to do with their mind? This is where they have to have clarity. It's going to help with focus, creativity, to innovate new solutions. And so we need to be able to prioritize our mindset and our mental health. And then there's the body, right? So a lot of us are going to be going on deployments. We're going to work long hours. Our body is what's going to give us the fuel and energy and the stamina to get through a day. It's literally bringing our energy. And then you think about the spirit, and this one is really special, and it's probably the most neglected. So when you think about the spirit, this is where you're going to anchor in with your emotional health. What is your purpose? What is your why? Wyatt Hornsby 2:06 That is such a great insight. And what really resonates with me, Naviere, is Tanji's emphasis on health and wellness is a critical component of leading others — that integration. Naviere Walkewicz 2:16 Yes, well, you know, we both really take our health and wellness seriously, but I think to the level that she really talked about it being — she really had this quiet confidence, and I think that also spoke volumes, right? It's not just about being physical, but being in your mind, body and spirit really well. And so I think that when we think about how that plays into being really intentional, people will experience you differently. Wyatt Hornsby 2:39 All right. Our second clip comes from Dave Harden, Class of '95. Dave brought perspective shaped by high-stakes environments where leadership is about inspiring others. Listen for how he connects looking outside of yourself, for your team with leading them to their own greatness. Dave Harden 2:55 If we can transform, if we can pause, if we can look up right and see the faith and the what if and not say, say, Why is this happening to me? But what can I do with it? What can I do for others? How can I connect in a meaningful way? You will transform your life. You'll transform your leadership, and you'll transform the people around you, because they'll be inspired to be superheroes in their own right. Naviere Walkewicz 3:26 Wow. That was a very powerful clip. And I just remember his conversation being really powerful, because there were so many moments where we talked about, you know, when you're really leaning into the fire. But this particular clip — what spoke to me, Wyatt — he was saying, if you lead selflessly and by example, looking for others to have opportunities to excel, they actually find the confidence in what they're able to give and do and striving for more. Thought that's really powerful, for sure. Wyatt Hornsby 3:51 Agree Naviere, and that's really timeless leadership. Whether you're leading in uniform or outside of it, people trust leaders who are present when it counts. And Dave really personifies that. Naviere Walkewicz 4:03 Yes, our third clip comes from Congressman August Pfluger, Class of 2000. When we spoke to the congressman, he brought a unique perspective, one shaped by military service and now public service. His leadership journey didn't end when he took off the uniform. It simply evolved. And this clip reflects that sense of responsibility to those one leads. To do that successfully means establishing credibility. Let's roll the clip. August Pfluger 4:30 Growing up professionally in a fighter squadron, there were three tenants that they, even though I didn't go to weapons school, they teach you: that's to be humble, credible and approachable. I mean, think about that. Those are the core tenants of who our lead warriors are. And that is not what you see. When you think of politicians. You think, Well, they're braggadocios and annoying, and, you know, OK, I hope I don't fall into that category. I need to do some self-reflection every once while, but, but I've got a staff of almost 40 people, and I have 434 other colleagues that you have to work with. So you better believe that you've got to be humble, because there are people who are better than you in every category, you better believe that being approachable in this job is really important, because people are going to come to you and they're going to need something, or you're going to need something from them, and if you don't have the credibility of what you're talking about or what you're leading, then you're not going to get anything done. Wyatt Hornsby 5:37 Great insights from the congressman. And that's really one of those leadership truths that carries across every domain for him now in Washington, DC, and the congressman is reminding us that leadership doesn't start with a title. Naviere Walkewicz 5:50 I really appreciate that. I think specifically when he said he had over 400 colleagues, that really stood out to me about not leading with the title, but really leading with your virtue and being there. And so I love the fact that he talked about earning trust respect, and then with that comes credibility. Wyatt Hornsby 6:06 And being approachable. Naviere Walkewicz 6:08 Being approachable. Yes, we see him doing that all the time. Wyatt Hornsby 6:13 All right, so let's look ahead. As we close out this retrospective, we also want to take a moment to look forward, but before we look forward, let me just say that these were three conversations among so many great ones from Season 4. Naviere Walkewicz 6:26 It was hard to choose, wasn't it wise? Wyatt Hornsby 6:28 It was so hard to choose. And we encourage you, if you have not listened to all of Season 4, check them out, because there's so many wonderful guests here. Thanks for the great job you did hosting those conversations. Naviere Walkewicz 6:40 Always my pleasure. Always my pleasure. In fact, gosh, going back, I think, all the way to Season 1, there's always someone, a guest, that our graduates and other listeners, and gosh, our viewers can really resonate with. There's some wonderful leadership lesson down there. Wyatt Hornsby 6:53 And easy to find. You can you can get our episodes anywhere you get your podcast. Naviere Walkewicz 6:57 Yes, we have some outstanding guests coming up. These are leaders from across different fields, and we're excited to bring them into our Long Blue Leadership conversation. Wyatt Hornsby 7:06 And we also want to share a couple of important and very exciting changes to how Long Blue Leadership will be published. Naviere Walkewicz 7:12 Yes, we are moving away from seasons, and we're shifting to biweekly, year-round release schedule. This is so you get Long Blue Leadership all the time, year round. Right to you where you are. Wyatt Hornsby 7:23 Very exciting, and that means more consistent leadership conversations. No long breaks, just ongoing dialog. Naviere Walkewicz 7:30 Absolutely you just go to longblueleadership.org to find your Long Blue Leadership conversation. So going forward, we'll publish our annual retrospective, released each December, a dedicated moment where white and I come together to reflect on the leadership lessons we heard throughout the year. Wyatt Hornsby 7:45 Very exciting, and Season Four reminded us that leadership isn't about having all the answers. It's about showing up with intention and care, being humble, being approachable and putting others first. Naviere Walkewicz 7:57 We're grateful to every guest who shared their perspective and to you for being part of this incredible community. Wyatt Hornsby 8:03 And Naviere, while we're at it too, let's go ahead and thank Ted, our incredible producer of Long Blue Leadership. Naviere Walkewicz 8:09 Thanks, Ted. We appreciate you so much. This doesn't happen without your magic. So thank you very much. Wyatt Hornsby 8:13 Yeah, thank you, Ted and everybody. Thanks for listening. I'm Wyatt Hornsby. Naviere Walkewicz 8:18 And I'm Naviere Walkewicz. We'll see you on Long Blue Leadership. KEYWORDS Mind, body, spirit, leadership, daily practice, mental health, physical health, spiritual health, wellness, emotional health, purpose, why, selfless leadership, service, inspiring others, transformation, high-stakes environments, team, connection, trust, respect, credibility, humility, humble, approachable, virtuous leadership, public service, military service, fighter squadron, colleagues, responsibility to people, presence, intention, care, confidence, long blue leadership, podcast, retrospective, season four, biweekly schedule, year-round release, annual retrospective, leadership lessons, graduates, listeners, community The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
Purpose, trust and laughter matter. SUMMARY Dr. Heather Wilson '82, former secretary of the U.S. Air Force, and Gen. Dave Goldfein '83, former chief of staff of the Air Force, highlight the human side of leadership — honoring family, listening actively and using humility and humor to build strong teams. Their book, Get Back Up: Lessons in Servant Leadership, challenges leaders to serve first and lead with character. SHARE THIS PODCAST LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS FROM THIS EPISODE Leadership Is a Gift and a Burden – Leaders are entrusted with the well-being and development of others, but that privilege entails tough, sometimes lonely, responsibilities. Servant Leadership – True leadership is about enabling and supporting those you lead, not seeking personal advancement or recognition. Influence and Teamwork – Lasting change comes from pairing authority with influence and working collaboratively; no leader succeeds alone. Embrace Failure and Own Mistakes – Effective leaders accept institutional and personal failures and use them as learning and teaching moments. Family Matters – Great leaders recognize the significance of family (their own and their team's) and demonstrate respect and flexibility for personal commitments. Be Data-Driven and Strategic – Borrow frameworks that suit the mission, be clear about goals, and regularly follow up to ensure progress. Listening Is Active – Truly listening, then responding openly and honestly—even when you can't “fix” everything—builds trust and respect. Humility and Curiosity – Never stop learning or questioning; continual self-improvement is a hallmark of strong leaders. Celebrate and Share Credit – Spread praise to those working behind the scenes; leadership is not about personal glory, but lifting others. Resilience and Leading by Example – “Getting back up” after setbacks inspires teams; how a leader recovers can motivate others to do the same. CHAPTERS 0:00:00 - Introduction and Welcome 0:00:21 - Guest Backgrounds and Family Legacies 0:02:57 - Inspiration for Writing the Book 0:05:00 - Defining Servant Leadership 0:07:46 - Role Models and Personal Examples CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Host: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Guests: Dr. Heather Wilson '82, former Secretary of the U.S. Air Force, and former Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. (Ret.) Dave Goldfein '83 Naviere Walkewicz 0:09 Welcome to Focus on Leadership, our accelerated leadership series. I'm your host, Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. I'm honored to welcome two exceptional leaders whose careers and friendship have helped shape the modern Air Force, while inspiring thousands to serve with purpose and courage. Our guests today are Dr. Heather Wilson, USAFA Class of '82, the 24th secretary of the Air Force, now president at the University of Texas El Paso. And Gen. Dave Goldfein, Class of '83, the 21st chief of staff of the Air Force. Both are United States Air Force Academy distinguished graduates. Together, they've written Get Back Up: Lessons in Servant Leadership, a powerful reflection on resilience, humility and the courage to lead to adversity. And our conversation today will dive deeply into the lessons they learned at the highest levels of command and in public service, and what it means to serve others first. Thank you for being here. Gen. Dave Goldfein 1:08 Thank you for having us. Naviere Walkewicz 1:09 Absolutely. This is truly an honor. And I mentioned that I read this incredible book, and I'm so excited for us to jump into it, but before we do, I think it's really important for people to know you more than the secretary and the chief. I mean chief, so Gen. Goldfein, you came from an Air Force family. Your dad was a colonel, and ma'am, your grandpa was a civil aviator, but you really didn't have any other military ties. Dr. Heather Wilson 1:29 Well, my grandfather was one of the first pilots in the RAF in World War I, then came to America, and in World War II, flew for his new country in the Civil Air Patrol. My dad enlisted by that a high school and was a crew chief between the end of the Second World War and the start of Korea, and then he went back home and became a commercial aviator and a mechanic. Naviere Walkewicz 1:52 I love that. So your lines run deep. So maybe you can share more and let our listeners get to know you more personally. What would you like to share in this introduction of Gen. Goldfein and Dr. Wilson? Gen. Dave Goldfein 2:02 Well, I'll just tell you that if you know much about Air Force culture you know we all get call signs, right. Nicknames, right? I got a new one the day I retired, and you get to use it. It's JD, which stands for “Just Dave.” Naviere Walkewicz 2:17 Just Dave! Yes, sir. JD. I will do my best for that to roll off my tongue. Yes, sir. Gen. Dave Goldfein 2:25 And I will just say congratulations to you for your two sons who are currently at the Academy. How cool is that? Naviere Walkewicz 2:31 Thank you. We come from a Long Blue Line family. My dad was a grad, my uncle, my brother and sister, my two boys. So if I get my third son, he'll be class of 2037, so, we'll see. We've got some time. Gen. Dave Goldfein 2:41 We have grandchildren. Matter of fact, our book is dedicated to grandchildren and they don't know it yet, but at least on my side, they're Class of 2040 and 2043 at the Air Force Academy. Naviere Walkewicz 2:52 OK, so my youngest will be cadre for them. Excellent. Excellent. Dr. Heather Wilson 2:57 And my oldest granddaughter is 4, so I think we'll wait a little bit and see what she wants to do. Naviere Walkewicz 3:04 Yes, ma'am. All right. Well, let's jump in. You just mentioned that you wrote the book primarily for your film book. Is that correct? Gen. Dave Goldfein 3:09 Yes. Naviere Walkewicz 3:10 How did you decide to do this now together? Because you both have incredible stories. Dr. Heather Wilson 3:14 Well, two years ago, we were actually up in Montana with Barbara and Craig Barrett, who — Barbara succeeded me as secretary of the Air Force. And our families, all six of us are quite close, and we were up there, and Dave was telling stories, and I said, “You know, you need to write some of these down.” And we talked about it a little bit, and he had tried to work with another co-author at one time and it just didn't work out really well. And I said, “Well, what if we do it together, and we focus it on young airmen, on lessons learned in leadership. And the other truth is, we were so tired of reading leadership books by Navy SEALs, you know, and so can we do something together? It turned out to be actually more work than I thought it would be for either of us, but it was also more fun. Naviere Walkewicz 3:59 How long did it take you from start to finish? Dr. Heather Wilson 4:02 Two years. Naviere Walkewicz 4:03 Two years? Excellent. And are you — where it's landed? Are you just so proud? Is it what you envisioned when you started? Gen. Dave Goldfein 4:10 You know, I am, but I will also say that it's just come out, so the initial response has been fantastic, but I'm really eager to see what the longer term response looks like, right? Did it resonate with our intended tenant audience? Right? Did the young captains that we had a chance to spend time with at SOS at Maxwell last week, right? They lined up forever to get a copy. But the real question is, did the stories resonate? Right? Do they actually give them some tools that they can use in their tool bag? Same thing with the cadets that we were privileged to spend time with the day. You know, they energized us. I mean, because we're looking at the we're looking at the future of the leadership of this country. And if, if these lessons in servant leadership can fill their tool bag a little bit, then we'll have hit the mark. Naviere Walkewicz 5:07 Yes, sir, yes. Ma'am. Well, let's jump right in then. And you talked about servant leadership. How would you describe it? Each of you, in your own words, Dr. Heather Wilson 5:15 To me, one of the things, important things about servant leadership is it's from the bottom. As a leader, your job is to enable the people who are doing the work. So in some ways, you know, people think that the pyramid goes like this, that it's the pyramid with the point at the top, and in servant leadership, it really is the other way around. And as a leader, one of the most important questions I ask my direct reports — I have for years — is: What do you need from me that you're not getting? And I can't print money in the basement, but what do you need from me that you're not getting? How, as a leader, can I better enable you to accomplish your piece of the mission. And I think a good servant leader is constantly thinking about, how do I — what can I do to make it easier for the people who are doing the job to get the mission done? Gen. Dave Goldfein 6:08 And I'd offer that the journey to becoming an inspirational servant leader is the journey of a lifetime. I'm not sure that any of us actually ever arrive. I'm not the leader that I want to be, but I'm working on it. And I think if we ever get to a point where we feel like we got it all figured out right, that we know exactly what this whole leadership gig is, that may be a good time to think about retiring, because what that translates to is perhaps at that point, we're not listening, we're not learning, we're not growing, we're not curious — all the things that are so important. The first chapter in the book is titled, Am I worthy? And it's a mirror-check question that we both came to both individually and together as secretary and chief. It's a mere check that you look at and say, “All right, on this lifelong journey to become an inspirational servant leader, am I worthy of the trust and confidence of the parents who have shared their sons and daughters with the United States Air Force and expecting us to lead with character and courage and confidence? Am I worthy of the gift that followers give to leaders? Am I earning that gift and re-earning it every single day by how I act, how I treat others?” You know, that's the essence of servant leadership that we try to bring forward in the book. Naviere Walkewicz 7:38 Right? Can you recall when you first saw someone exhibiting servant leadership in your life? Dr. Heather Wilson 7:46 Good question. It's a question of role models. Maj. William S. Reeder was my first air officer commanding here. And while I think I can probably think of some leaders in my community, you know, people who were school principals or those kind of things, I think Maj. Reeder terrified me because they didn't want to disappoint him. And he had — he was an Army officer who had been shot down as a prisoner of war in Vietnam. He still had some lingering issues. Now, I think he had broken his leg or his back or something, and so you could tell that he still carried with him the impact of that, but he had very high expectations of us and we didn't want to disappoint him. And I think he was a pretty good role model. Gen. Dave Goldfein 8:47 You know, one of the things we say at the very end of the book is that we both married up. We both married incredible leaders, servant leaders in their own right. So in my case, I married my high school sweetheart, and we've now been together almost 43 years, coming up on 43. And when you talk about servant leadership, you know, very often we don't give military spouses enough credit for the enormous courage that they have when they deal with the separations, the long hours, very often not talked about enough, the loneliness that comes with being married to someone who's in the military. And so I just give a shout out to every military spouse that's out there and family to thank them for that very special kind of courage that equates to servant leadership on their part. Naviere Walkewicz 9:47 Excellent. Those are both really great examples, and I think, as our listeners are engaging with this, they're going to start to think about those people in their lives as well, through your descriptions. Early in the book, you make this statement: “Leadership is a gift and a burden.” Might you both expand on that? Dr. Heather Wilson 10:03 So it's a gift in that it's a gift that's given to you by those whom you are privileged to lead, and it's not just an institution that, you know, it's not just the regents of the University of Texas who have said, “Yes, you're going to be the president of the University of Texas at El Paso.” It is those who follow me who have given me gift of their loyalty and their service and their time. It's a burden, because some days are hard days, and you have to make hard calls based on values to advance the mission and, as chief and service secretary, there are no easy decisions that come walking into that part of the Pentagon. The easy decisions are all made before it gets to the service secretary and chief and so. So there is that responsibility of trying to do well difficult things. And I think sometimes those are lonely decisions. Gen. Dave Goldfein 11:09 And I think as a leader of any organization, part of what can be the burden is if you care deeply about the institution, then you carry the burden of any failures of that institution, both individuals who fall short, or the institution itself. And we face some of those, and we talk about that in the book. One of our chapters is on Sutherland Springs and owning failure. There was no dodge in that. And there was, quite frankly, there was an opportunity for us to actually showcase and teach others how to take ownership when the institution falls short and fails, right? And you know, one of the interesting elements of the relationship between a secretary and a chief is that if you go back and look at the law and read the job description of the chief of staff of the Air Force, it basically says, “Run the air staff and do what the secretary tells you.” I'm not making that up. Because most of the decision authority of the institution resides in the civilian control, the military civilian secretary. So almost all authority and decision authority resides with the secretary. What the chief position brings is 30 years in the institution that very often can bring credibility and influence. And what we determined early in our tenure was that if we were going to move the ball, if we were going to actually move the service in a positive direction, neither of us could do it alone. We had to do it together. We had to use this combination of authority and influence to be able to move the institution forward. And so that was a — and we talked a lot about that, you know, in the book, and it sort of runs throughout our stories. You know, that that trust matters. Naviere Walkewicz 12:59 Absolutely. We're going to visit that towards the end of our conversation, because there's a particular time before you both — before you became the chief and before you became the service secretary, when you met up together. And I want to visit that a little bit. But before we do, Gen. Goldfein — JD — you shared a story in the book, and obviously we want everyone to read it, so I'm not going to go tell the whole story, but you know where you took off one more time than you landed, and you had to, you know, you were hit, you had to evade and then you had to be rescued. There was a particular statement you made to identify yourself. And many of our Long Blue Line members will know this: fast, neat, average, friendly, good, good. In that moment of watching the sun start to rise while you're waiting to be retrieved, how did that come to your mind? Of all the things you could be thinking of to identify yourself? Gen. Dave Goldfein 13:53 Well, you know, it's interesting. So, you know, for those who've never, you know, had gone through a high-speed ejection, people asked me, what was like? I said, “Well, I used to be 6-foot-3. This is all that's left, right?” And you know, my job once I was on the ground was, quite frankly, not to goof it up. To let the rescue team do what the rescue team needed to do, and to play my part, which was to put them at the least amount of risk and be able to get out before the sun came up. And at the very end of the rescue when the helicopters — where I was actually vectoring them towards my location. And I had a compass in my hand, and I had my eyes closed, and I was just listening to the chopper noise and then vectoring them based on noise. And then eventually we got them to come and land, you know, right in front of me. Well, they always teach you, and they taught me here at the Academy during SERE training, which I think has been retitled, but it was SERE when we went through it, survival training. Now, I believe they teach you, “Hey, listen, you need to be nonthreatening, because the rescue team needs to know that you're not — this is not an ambush, that you are actually who you say you are. Don't hold up a weapon, be submissive and authenticate yourself. Well, to authenticate myself required me to actually try my flashlight. And I could see the enemy just over the horizon. And as soon as the helicopter landed, the enemy knew exactly where we were, and they came and running, and they came shooting, and they were raking the tree line with bullets. And so, you know, what I needed to do was to figure out a way to do an authentication. And I just, what came to mind was that training all those years ago, right here at the Academy, and I just said, “I could use a fast, neat, average rescue,” and friendly, good, good was on the way. Naviere Walkewicz 15:53 Wow, I just got chill bumps. Dr. Wilson, have you ever had to use that same kind of term, or, you know, reaching out to a grad in your time frequently? Dr. Heather Wilson 16:04 Yes, ma'am. And, you know, even in the last week, funny — I had an issue that I had to, I won't go into the details, but where there was an issue that might affect the reputation, not only of the university, but of one of our major industry partners, and it wasn't caused by either of us, but there was kind of a, kind of a middle person that was known to us that may not have been entirely acting with integrity. And I just looked up the company. The CEO is an Academy grad. So I picked up the phone and I called the office and we had a conversation. And I said, “Hey, I'd like to have a conversation with you, grad to grad.” And I said, “There are some issues here that I don't need to go into the details, but where I think you and I need to be a little careful about our reputations and what matters is my relationship as the university with you and your company and what your company needs in terms of talent. But wanted to let you know something that happened and what we're doing about it, but I wanted to make sure that you and I are clear.” And it was foundation of values that we act with integrity and we don't tolerate people who won't. Naviere Walkewicz 17:30 Yes, ma'am, I love that. The Long Blue Line runs deep that way, and that's a great example. JD, you spoke about, in the book, after the rescue — by the way, the picture in there of that entire crew was amazing. I love that picture. But you talked about getting back up in the air as soon as possible, without any pomp and circumstance. “Just get me back in the air and into the action.” I'd like to visit two things. One, you debriefed with the — on the check ride, the debrief on the check ride and why that was important. And then also you spoke about the dilemma of being dad and squad comm. Can you talk about that as well? Gen. Dave Goldfein 18:06 Yeah, the check ride. So when I was in Desert Storm, an incredible squadron commander named Billy Diehl, and one of the things that he told us after he led all the missions in the first 30 days or so, he said, “Look, there will be a lot of medals, you know, from this war.” He goes, “But I'm going to do something for you that happened for me in Vietnam. I'm going to fly on your wing, and I'm going to give you a check ride, and you're going to have a documented check ride of a combat mission that you led in your flying record. I'm doing that for you.” OK, so fast forward 10 years, now I'm the squadron commander, and I basically followed his lead. Said, “Hey, I want…” So that night, when I was shot down, I was actually flying on the wing of one of my captains, “Jammer” Kavlick, giving him a check ride. And so, of course, the rescue turns out — I'm sitting here, so it turned out great. And so I called Jammer into a room, and I said, “Hey, man, we never did the check ride.” I said, “You know, you flew a formation right over the top of a surface enemy missile that took out your wingman. That's not a great start.” And he just sort of… “Yes, sir, I know.” I said, “And then you led an all-night rescue that returned him to his family. That's pretty good recovery.” And so it's been a joke between us ever since. But in his personal — his flying record, he has a form that says, “I'm exceptionally, exceptionally qualified.” So I got back and I thought about this when I was on the ground collecting rocks for my daughters, you know, as souvenirs from Serbia. I got back, and I looked at my wing commander, and I said, “Hey, sir, I know you probably had a chance to think about this, but I'm not your young captain that just got shot down. I'm the squadron commander, and I've got to get my squadron back on the horse, and the only way to do that is for me to get back in the air. So if it's OK with you, I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna get crew rest and I'm going to fly tonight.” And he looked at me, and he looked at my wife, Dawn, who was there, and he goes, “If it's OK with her, it's OK with me.” Great. Dawn, just a champion, she said, “I understand it. That's what you got to do.” Because we were flying combat missions with our families at home, which is, was not in the squadron commander handbook, right? Pretty unique. What I found, though, was that my oldest daughter was struggling a little bit with it, and so now you've got this, you know, OK, I owe it to my squad to get right back up in the air and lead that night. And I owe it to my daughter to make sure that she's OK. And so I chose to take one night, make sure that she and my youngest daughter, Diana, were both, you know, in a good place, that they knew that everything's going to be OK. And then I got back up the next night. And in some ways, I didn't talk about it with anybody in the media for a year, because my dad was a Vietnam vet, I'd met so many of his friends, and I'd met so many folks who had actually gotten shot down one and two and three times over Vietnam, in Laos, right? You know what they did after they got rescued? They got back up. They just went back up in the air, right? No fanfare, no book tours, no, you know, nothing, right? It was just get back to work. So for me, it was a way of very quietly honoring the Vietnam generation, to basically do what they did and get back in the air quietly. And so that was what it was all about. Naviere Walkewicz 21:25 Dr. Wilson, how about for you? Because I know — I remember reading in the book you had a — there was something you said where, if your children called, no matter what they could always get through. So how have you balanced family? Dr. Heather Wilson 21:36 Work and life. And so, when I was elected to the Congress, my son was 4 years old. My daughter was 18 months. First of all, I married well, just like Dave. But I also think my obligations to my family don't end at the front porch, and I want to make a better world for them. But I also knew that I was a better member of Congress because I had a family, and that in some ways, each gave richness and dimension to the other. We figured out how to make it work as a family. I mean, both my children have been to a White House Christmas ball and the State of the Union, but we always had a rule that you can call no matter what. And I remember there were some times that it confounded people and, like, there was one time when President Bush — W. Bush, 43 — was coming to New Mexico for the first time, and he was going to do some events in Albuquerque. And they called and they said, “Well, if the congresswoman wants to fly in with him from Texas, you know, she can get off the airplane in her district with the president. And the answer was, “That's the first day of school, and I always take my kids to school the first day, so I'll just meet him here.” And the staff was stunned by that, like, she turns down a ride on Air Force One to arrive in her district with the president of the United States to take her kids to school. Yes, George Bush understood it completely. And likewise, when the vice president came, and it was, you know, that the one thing leading up to another tough election — I never had an easy election — and the one thing I said to my staff all the way through October, leading — “There's one night I need off, and that's Halloween, because we're going trick or treating.” And wouldn't you know the vice president is flying into New Mexico on Halloween for some event in New Mexico, and we told them, “I will meet them at the stairs when they arrive in Albuquerque. I'll have my family with them, but I won't be going to the event because we're going trick or treating.” And in my house, I have this great picture of the vice president of the United States and his wife and my kids in costume meeting. So most senior people understood that my family was important to me and everybody's family, you know — most people work to put food on the table, and if, as a leader, you recognize that and you give them grace when they need it, you will also have wonderful people who will work for you sometimes when the pay is better somewhere else because you respect that their families matter to them and making room for that love is important. Naviere Walkewicz 24:36 May I ask a follow on to that? Because I think that what you said was really important. You had a leader that understood. What about some of our listeners that maybe have leaders that don't value the same things or family in the way that is important. How do they navigate that? Dr. Heather Wilson 24:52 Sometimes you look towards the next assignment, or you find a place where your values are the same. And if we have leaders out there who are not being cognizant of the importance of family — I mean, we may recruit airmen but we retain families, and if we are not paying attention to that, then we will lose exceptional people. So that means that sometimes, you know, I give a lot of flexibility to people who are very high performers and work with me. And I also know that if I call them at 10 o'clock at night, they're going to answer the phone, and that's OK. I understand what it's like to — I remember, you know, I was in New Mexico, I was a member of Congress, somebody was calling about an issue in the budget, and my daughter, who was probably 4 at the time, had an ear infection, and it was just miserable. And so I'm trying to get soup into her, and this guy is calling me, and she's got — and it was one of the few times I said — and it was the chairman of a committee — I said, “Can I just call you back? I've got a kid with an ear infection…” And he had five kids. He said, “Oh, absolutely, you call me back.” So you just be honest with people about the importance of family. Why are we in the service? We're here to protect our families and everybody else's family. And that's OK. Naviere Walkewicz 26:23 Yes, thank you for sharing that. Anything to add to that, JD? No? OK. Well, Dr. Wilson, I'd like to go into the book where you talk about your chapter on collecting tools, which is a wonderful chapter, and you talk about Malcolm Baldridge. I had to look him up — I'll be honest — to understand, as a businessman, his career and his legacy. But maybe share in particular why he has helped you. Or maybe you've leveraged his process in the way that you kind of think through and systematically approach things. Dr. Heather Wilson 26:49 Yeah, there was a movement in the, it would have been in the early '90s, on the Malcolm Baldrige Quality Awards. It came out of the Department of Commerce, but then it spread to many of the states and it was one of the better models I thought for how to run organizations strategically. And I learned about it when I was a small businessperson in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And I thought it was interesting. But the thing that I liked about it was it scaled. It was a little bit like broccoli, you know, it looks the same at the little flora as it does at the whole head, right? And so it kind of became a model for how I could use those tools about being data driven, strategically focused, process oriented that I could use in reforming a large and not very well functioning child welfare department when I became a cabinet secretary for children, youth and families, which was not on my how-to-run-my-career card. That was not in the plan, but again, it was a set of tools that I'd learned in one place that I brought with me and thought might work in another. Naviere Walkewicz 28:02 Excellent. And do you follow a similar approach, JD, in how you approach a big problem? Gen. Dave Goldfein 28:07 I think we're all lifelong students of different models and different frameworks that work. And there's not a one-size-fits-all for every organization. And the best leaders, I think, are able to tailor their approach based on what the mission — who the people are, what they're trying to accomplish. I had a chance to be a an aide de camp to a three-star, Mike Ryan, early in my career, and he went on to be chief of staff of the Air Force. And one of the frameworks that he taught me was he said, “If you really want to get anything done,” he said, “you've got to do three things.” He said, “First of all, you got to put a single person in charge.” He said, “Committees and groups solve very little. Someone's got to drive to work feeling like they've got the authority, the responsibility, the resources and everything they need to accomplish what it is that you want to accomplish. So get a single person in charge. Most important decision you will make as a leader, put the right person in charge. Second, that person owes you a plan in English. Not 15 PowerPoint slides, right, but something that clearly articulates in one to two pages, max, exactly what we're trying to accomplish. And the third is, you've got to have a way to follow up.” He said, “Because life gets in the way of any perfect plan. And what will happen is,” he goes, “I will tell you how many times,” he said, “that I would circle back with my team, you know, a couple months later and say, ‘How's it going?' And they would all look at each other and say, “Well, I thought you were in charge,” right? And then after that, once they figure out who was in charge, they said, “Well, we were working this plan, but we got, you know, we had to go left versus right, because we had this crisis, this alligator started circling the canoe, and therefore we had to, you know, take care of that,” right? He says, “As a leader, those are the three elements of any success. Put someone in charge. Build a plan that's understandable and readable, and always follow up. And I've used that as a framework, you know, throughout different organizations, even all the way as chief to find — to make sure that we had the right things. Dr. Heather Wilson 30:21 Even this morning, somebody came by who reminded us of a story that probably should have been in the book, where we had — it was a cyber vulnerability that was related to a particular piece of software widely deployed, and the CIO was having trouble getting the MAJCOMMS to kind of take it seriously. And they were saying, “Well, you know, we think maybe in 30, 60, 90 days, six months, we'll have it all done,” or whatever. So I said, “OK, let all the four-stars know. I want to be updated every 36 hours on how many of them, they still have, still have not updated.” I mean, this is a major cyber vulnerability that we knew was — could be exploited and wasn't some little thing. It was amazing; it got done faster. Naviere Walkewicz 31:11 No 90 days later. Oh, my goodness. Well, that was excellent and actually, I saw that in action in the story, in the book, after the attack on the Pentagon, and when you stood up and took charge, kind of the relief efforts, because many people were coming in that wanted to help, and they just needed someone to lead how that could happen. So you were putting into practice. Yes, sir. I'd like to get into where you talk about living your purpose, and that's a chapter in there. But you know, Gen. Goldfein, we have to get into this. You left the Academy as a cadet, and I think that's something that not many people are familiar with. You ride across the country on a bike with a guitar on your back for part of the time — and you sent it to Dawn after a little while — Mini-Bear in your shirt, to find your purpose. Was there a moment during the six months that you that hit you like lightning and you knew that this was your purpose, or was it a gradual meeting of those different Americans you kind of came across? Gen. Dave Goldfein 32:04 Definitely gradual. You know, it was something that just built up over time. I used to joke — we both knew Chairman John McCain and always had great respect for him. And I remember one time in his office, I said, “Chairman, I got to share with you that I lived in constant fear during every hearing that you were going to hold up a piece of paper on camera and say, ‘General, I got your transcript from the Air Force Academy. You got to be kidding me, right?' And he laughed, and he said, Trust me, if you looked at my transcript in Annapolis,” he goes, “I'm the last guy that would have ever asked that question.” But you know, the we made a mutual decision here, sometimes just things all come together. I'd written a paper on finding my purpose about the same time that there was a professor from Annapolis that was visiting and talking about a sabbatical program that Annapolis had started. And so they started talking about it, and then this paper made it and I got called in. They said, “Hey, we're thinking about starting this program, you know, called Stop Out, designed to stop people from getting out. We read your paper. What would you do if you could take a year off?” And I said, “Wow, you know, if I could do it, I'll tell you. I would start by going to Philmont Scout Ranch, you know, and be a backcountry Ranger,” because my passion was for the outdoors, and do that. “And then I would go join my musical hero, Harry Chapin.” Oh, by the way, he came to the United States Air Force Academy in the early '60s. Right? Left here, built a band and wrote the hit song Taxi. “So I would go join him as a roadie and just sort of see whether music and the outdoors, which my passions are, what, you know, what it's all about for me.” Well, we lost contact with the Chapin connection. So I ended up on this bicycle riding around the country. And so many families took me in, and so many towns that I rode into, you know, I found that if I just went to the library and said, “Hey, tell me a little bit about the history of this town,” the librarian would call, like, the last, you know, three or four of the seniors the town, they'd all rush over to tell me the story of, you know, this particular little town, right? And then someone would also say, “Hey, where are you staying tonight?” “I'm staying in my tent.” They said, “Oh, come stay with me.” So gradually, over time, I got to know America, and came to the conclusion when I had to make the decision to come back or not, that this country is really worth defending, that these people are hard-working, you know, that want to make the world better for their kids and their grandkids, and they deserve a United States Air Force, the best air force on the planet, to defend them. So, you know, when I came back my last two years, and I always love sharing this with cadets, because some of them are fighting it, some of them have embraced it. And all I tell them is, “Hey, I've done both. And all I can tell you is, the sooner you embrace it and find your purpose, this place is a lot more fun.” Naviere Walkewicz 35:13 Truth in that, yes, yes, well. And, Dr. Wilson, how did you know you were living your purpose? Dr. Heather Wilson 35:19 Well, I've had a lot of different chapters to my life. Yes, and we can intellectualize it on why we, you know, why I made a certain decision at a certain time, but there were doors that opened that I never even knew were there. But at each time and at each junction, there was a moment where somehow I just knew. And at South Dakota Mines is a good example. You know, I lost a race to the United States Senate. I actually had some interns — I benefited from a lousy job market, and I had fantastic interns, and we were helping them through the loss. You know, they're young. They were passionate. They, as Churchill said, “The blessing and the curse of representative government is one in the same. The people get what they choose.” And so I was helping them through that, and one of them said, “Well, Dr. Wilson, you're really great with students. You should be a college president somewhere. Texas Tech needs a president. You should apply there,” because that's where this kid was going to school. And I said, “Well, but I don't think they're looking for me.” But it did cause me to start thinking about it and I had come close. I had been asked about a college presidency once before, and I started looking at it and talking to headhunters and so forth. And initially, South Dakota Mines didn't seem like a great fit, because I'm a Bachelor of Science degree here, but my Ph.D. is in a nonscientific discipline, and it's all engineers and scientists. But as I went through the process, it just felt more and more right. And on the day of the final interviews, that evening, it was snowing in South Dakota, there was a concert in the old gym. I mean, this is an engineering school, and they had a faculty member there who had been there for 40 years, who taught choral music, and the students stood up, and they started singing their warm up, which starts out with just one voice, and eventually gets to a 16-part harmony and it's in Latin, and it's music is a gift from God, and they go through it once, and then this 40th anniversary concert, about 50 people from the audience stand up and start singing. It's like a flash mob, almost These were all alumni who came back. Forty years of alumni to be there for that concert for him. And they all went up on stage and sang together in this just stunning, beautiful concert by a bunch of engineers. And I thought, “There's something special going on here that's worth being part of,” and there are times when you just know. And the same with becoming cabinet secretary for children, youth and families — that was not in the plan and there's just a moment where I knew that was what I should do now. How I should use my gifts now? And you hope that you're right in making those decisions. Naviere Walkewicz 38:43 Well, probably aligning with JD's point in the book of following your gut. Some of that's probably attached to you finding your purpose. Excellent. I'd like to visit the time Dr. Wilson, when you were helping President Bush with the State of the Union address, and in particular, you had grueling days, a lot of hours prepping, and when it was time for it to be delivered, you weren't there. You went home to your apartment in the dark. You were listening on the radio, and there was a moment when the Congress applauded and you felt proud, but something that you said really stuck with me. And he said, I really enjoy being the low-key staff member who gets stuff done. Can you talk more about that? Because I think sometimes we don't, you know, the unsung heroes are sometimes the ones that are really getting so many things done, but nobody knows. Dr. Heather Wilson 39:31 So, I'm something of an introvert and I've acquired extrovert characteristics in order to survive professionally. But when it comes to where I get my batteries recharged, I'm quite an introvert, and I really loved — and the same in international negotiations, being often the liaison, the back channel, and I did that in the conventional forces in Europe negotiations for the American ambassador. And in some ways, I think it might have been — in the case of the conventional forces in Europe negotiations, I was on the American delegation here. I was in Vienna. I ended up there because, for a bunch of weird reasons, then they asked me if I would go there for three months TDY. It's like, “Oh, three months TDY in Vienna, Austria. Sign me up.” But I became a very junior member on the delegation, but I was the office of the secretary of defense's representative, and walked into this palace where they were negotiating between what was then the 16 NATO nations and the seven Warsaw Pact countries. And the American ambassador turned to me, and he said during this several times, “I want you to sit behind me and to my right, and several times I'm going to turn and talk to you, and I just want you to lean in and answer.” I mean, he wasn't asking anything substantive, and I just, “Yes, sir.” But what he was doing was credentialing me in front of the other countries around that table. Now, I was very young, there were only two women in the room. The other one was from Iceland, and what he was doing was putting me in a position to be able to negotiate the back channel with several of our allies and with — this was six months or so now, maybe a year before the fall of the Berlin Wall. So things were changing in Eastern Europe, and so I really have always enjoyed just that quietly getting things done, building consensus, finding the common ground, figuring out a problem. Actually have several coffee mugs that just say GSD, and the other side does say, Get Stuff Done. And I like that, and I like people who do that. And I think those quiet — we probably don't say thank you enough to the quiet, hardworking people that just figure out how to get stuff done. Naviere Walkewicz 41:59 Well, I like how he credentialed you and actually brought that kind of credibility in that way as a leader. JD, how have you done that as a leader? Champion, some of those quiet, behind the scenes, unsung heroes. Gen. Dave Goldfein 42:11 I'm not sure where the quote comes from, but it's something to the effect of, “It's amazing what you can get done if you don't care who gets the credit.” There's so much truth to that. You know, in the in the sharing of success, right? As servant leaders, one of the things that I think both of us spend a lot of time on is to make sure that credit is shared with all the folks who, behind the scenes, you know, are doing the hard, hard work to make things happen, and very often, you know, we're the recipients of the thank yous, right? And the gratefulness of an organization or for somebody who's benefited from our work, but when you're at the very senior leaders, you know what you do is you lay out the vision, you create the environment to achieve that vision. But the hard, hard work is done by so many others around you. Today, in the audience when we were there at Polaris Hall, was Col. Dave Herndon. So Col. Dave Herndon, when he was Maj. Dave Herndon, was my aide de camp, and I can tell you that there are so many successes that his fingers are on that he got zero credit for, because he was quietly behind the scenes, making things happen, and that's just the nature of servant leadership, is making sure that when things go well, you share it, and when things go badly, you own it. Naviere Walkewicz 43:47 And you do share a really remarkable story in there about accountability. And so we won't spend so much time talking about that, but I do want to go to the point where you talk about listening, and you say, listening is not passive; it's active and transformative. As servant leaders, have you ever uncovered challenges that your team has experienced that you didn't have the ability to fix and you know, what action did you take in those instances? Dr. Heather Wilson 44:09 You mean this morning? All the time. And sometimes — and then people will give you grace, if you're honest about that. You don't make wild promises about what you can do, but then you sit and listen and work through and see all right, what is within the realm of the possible here. What can we get done? Or who can we bring to the table to help with a set of problems? But, there's no… You don't get a — when I was president of South Dakota Mines, one of the people who worked with me, actually gave me, from the toy store, a magic wand. But it doesn't work. But I keep it in my office, in case, you know… So there's no magic wands, but being out there listening to understand, not just listening to refute, right? And then seeing whether there are things that can be done, even if there's some things you just don't have the answers for, right? Gen. Dave Goldfein 45:11 The other thing I would offer is that as senior leadership and as a senior leadership team, you rarely actually completely solve anything. What you do is improve things and move the ball. You take the hand you're dealt, right, and you find creative solutions. You create the environment, lay out the vision and then make sure you follow up, move the ball, and if you get at the end of your tenure, it's time for you to move on, and you've got the ball moved 20, 30, yards down the field. That's actually not bad, because most of the things we were taking on together, right, were big, hard challenges that we needed to move the ball on, right? I If you said, “Hey, did you completely revitalize the squadrons across the United States Air Force?” I will tell you, absolutely not. Did we get the ball about 20, 30 yards down the field? And I hope so. I think we did. Did we take the overhaul that we did of officer development to be able to ensure that we were producing the senior leaders that the nation needs, not just the United States Air Force needs? I will tell you that we didn't solve it completely, but we moved the ball down the field, and we did it in a way that was able to stick. You know, very often you plant seeds as a leader, and you never know whether those seeds are going to, you know, these seeds are ideas, right? And you never know whether the seeds are going to hit fertile soil or rocks. And I would often tell, you know, young leaders too. I said, you know, in your last few months that you're privileged to be in the position of leadership, you've got two bottles on your hip. You're walking around with — one of them's got fertilizer and one of them's got Roundup. And your job in that final few months is to take a look at the seeds that you planted and truly determine whether they hit fertile soil and they've grown roots, and if they've grown roots, you pull out the fertilizer, and the fertilizer you're putting on it is to make it part of the institution not associated with you, right? You want somebody some years from now say, “Hey, how do we ever do that whole squadron thing?” The right answer is, “I have no idea, but look at how much better we are.” That's the right answer, right? That's the fertilizer you put on it. But it's just equally important to take a look at the ideas that, just for whatever reason, sometimes beyond your control — they just didn't stick right. Get out the Roundup. Because what you don't want to do is to pass on to your successor something that didn't work for you, because it probably ain't going to work for her. Dr. Heather Wilson 47:46 That's right, which is one of the rules of leadership is take the garbage out with you when you go. Naviere Walkewicz 47:51 I like that. I like that a lot. Well, we are — just a little bit of time left. I want to end this kind of together on a story that you shared in the book about laughter being one of the tools you share. And after we share this together, I would like to ask you, I know we talked about mirror checks, but what are some things that you guys are doing every day to be better as well, to continue learning. But to get to the laughter piece, you mentioned that laughter is an underappreciated tool and for leaders, something that you both share. I want to talk about the time when you got together for dinner before you began working as chief and service secretary, and I think you may have sung an AF pro song. We're not going to ask you to sing that today, unless you'd like to JD? But let's talk about laughter. Gen. Dave Goldfein 48:31 The dean would throw me out. Naviere Walkewicz 48:33 OK, OK, we won't have you sing that today. But how have you found laughter — when you talk about — when the questions and the problems come up to you? Dr. Heather Wilson 48:40 So I'm going to start this because I think Dave Goldfein has mastered this leadership skill of how to use humor, and self-deprecating humor, better than almost any leader I've ever met. And it's disarming, which is a great technique, because he's actually wicked smart. But it's also people walk in the room knowing if you're going to a town hall meeting or you're going to be around the table, at least sometime in that meeting, we're going to laugh. And it creates a warmth and people drop their guard a little bit. You get to the business a little bit earlier. You get beyond the standard PowerPoint slides, and people just get down to work. And it just — people relax. And I think Dave is very, very good at it. Now, my husband would tell you that I was raised in the home for the humor impaired, and I have been in therapy with him for almost 35 years. Naviere Walkewicz 49:37 So have you improved? Dr. Heather Wilson 49:39 He thinks I've made some progress. Naviere Walkewicz 49:41 You've moved the ball. Dr. Heather Wilson 49:44 Yes. Made some progress. I still don't — I used to start out with saying the punch line and then explain why it was funny. Naviere Walkewicz 49:52 I'm in your camp a little bit. I try. My husband says, “Leave the humor to me.” Dr. Heather Wilson 49:54 Yeah, exactly. You understand. Gen. Dave Goldfein 49:58 I used to joke that I am a member of the Class of 1981['82 and '83]. I am the John Belushi of the United States Air Force Academy, a patron saint of late bloomers. But you know, honestly, Heather doesn't give herself enough credit for building an environment where, you know, folks can actually do their very best work. That's one of the things that we do, right? Because we have — the tools that we have available to be able to get things done very often, are the people that are we're privileged to lead and making sure that they are part of an organization where they feel valued, where we're squinting with our ears. We're actually listening to them. Where they're making a contribution, right? Where they believe that what they're being able to do as part of the institution or the organization is so much more than they could ever do on their own. That's what leadership is all about. Dr. Heather Wilson 51:05 You know, we try to — I think both of us see the humor in everyday life, and when people know that I have a desk plate that I got in South Dakota, and it doesn't say “President.” It doesn't say “Dr. Wilson.” It says, “You're kidding me, right?” Because once a week, more frequently as secretary and chief, but certainly frequently as a college president, somebody is going to walk in and say, “Chief, there's something you need to know.” And if they know they're going to get blasted out of the water or yelled at, people are going to be less likely to come in and tell you, right, what you need to know. But if you're at least willing to laugh at the absurdity of the — somebody thought that was a good idea, you know. My gosh, let's call the lawyers or whatever. But you know, you've just got to laugh, and if you laugh, people will know that you just put things in perspective and then deal with the problem. Naviere Walkewicz 52:06 Well, it connects us as humans. Yeah. Well, during my conversation today with Dr. Heather Wilson and Gen. Dave Goldfein — JD — two lessons really stood out to me. Leadership is not about avoiding the fall, but about how high you bounce back and how your recovery can inspire those you lead. It's also about service, showing up, doing the hard work and putting others before yourself with humility, integrity and working together. Dr. Wilson, Gen. Goldfein, thank you for showing us how courage, compassion and connection — they're not soft skills. They're actually the edge of hard leadership. And when you do that and you lead with service, you get back up after every fall. You encourage others to follow and do the same. Thank you for joining us for this powerful conversation. You can find Get Back Up: Lessons in Servant Leadership, wherever books are sold. And learn more at getbackupeadership.com. If today's episode inspired you, please share it with someone who can really benefit in their own leadership journey. As always, keep learning. Keep getting back up. Keep trying. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. This has been Focus On Leadership. Until next time. Producer This edition of Focus on Leadership, the accelerated leadership series, was recorded on Monday, Oct. 6, 2025. KEYWORDS Leadership, servant leadership, resilience, humility, integrity, influence, teamwork, family, trust, listening, learning, purpose, growth, accountability, service, courage, compassion, balance, values, inspiration. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
Leadership demands grit, clarity and conviction. SUMMARY On Long Blue Leadership, Congressman August Pfluger '00 reflects on these qualities through his experiences at the U.S. Air Force Academy, in the cockpit and as part of the U.S. House of Representatives. His story challenges every leader to ask where courage is calling them to go next. SHARE THIS PODCAST LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK CONGRESSMAN PFLUGER'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS Courageous career leaps require conviction, timing and faith. Pfluger left active duty at 19 years and four months — a highly unconventional choice — demonstrating that major pivots sometimes require stepping into uncertainty. Work ethic is a lifelong differentiator. He emphasizes that he has never been “the best,” but has always been willing to outwork anyone. Hard work + grit consistently opened doors. Failure and setbacks shape long-term success. Missed opportunities at USAFA and earlier career disappointments taught him timing, resilience and long-term perspective. Leadership is transferable across domains. His fighter pilot and command experience directly enabled his political success — planning, debrief culture and thick skin all mapped over perfectly. Credibility requires deep study and prioritization. You cannot master everything; leaders must choose focus areas and know them cold so others trust their expertise. Humility, credibility and approachability are foundational leadership traits. These principles translate powerfully to Congress and team leadership. Family and faith must anchor leadership. His family's summer crisis reframed his priorities: “None of this matters if you don't take care of your family.” The nation needs more military and Academy graduates in public leadership. He stresses that only four USAFA grads have ever served in Congress — and more are needed to restore civility and mission-focused service. The U.S. Air Force and U.S. Space Force are under-resourced relative to global threats. Pfluger advocates vigorously for rebalancing defense spending to meet modern challenges. Self-reflection is critical to growth. Leaders must ask: How do I see myself? How do others see me? If those don't align, adjust the work ethic, mindset or behaviors accordingly. CHAPTERS 00:00 — Introduction & Biography 01:44 — Opening Remarks 01:47 — Leaving Active Duty at 19 Years and 4 Months 04:06 — Why Run for Office? 05:40 — Family, Faith & Influences 07:14 — Representing His Hometown District 08:29 — Learning to Represent a District 11:07 — Work Ethic and USAFA Foundations 12:22 — Failure, Setbacks & Long-Term Rewards 15:10 — Unexpected Assignments Becoming Career High Points 17:24 — Pentagon, Fellowship & NSC 19:49 — USAFA Grads in Congress 21:03 — Role of the Board of Visitors 23:24 — Key Focus Areas for the Board of Visitors 25:11 — Top National Security Challenges 27:13 — Balancing Congress, Leadership, and Family 29:01 — Leadership Style & Decision-Making 30:40 — Humble, Credible, Approachable 33:38 — Building Credibility as a Younger Leader 34:43 — What's Next: A More United Country 37:29 — Daily Habits for Growth 39:37 — Advice for Emerging Leaders 41:24 — Final Reflections & Call to Action 43:45 — Closing Thoughts & Outro ABOUT CONGRESSMAN PFLUGER BIO U.S. Rep. August Pfluger '00 is serving his third term in the U.S. House of Representatives. He represents 20 counties in Texas' 11th Congressional District. After graduating from the U.S Air Force Academy, he served in the Air Force and Air Force Reserve for 25 years as an F-22 and F-15 pilot with over 300 combat hours. In Congress, he is chairman of the Republican Study Committee, the largest caucus on Capitol Hill. He is a member of the House Energy and Commerce Committee and chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee on Counterterrorism and Intelligence. CONNECT WITH THE CONGRESSMAN LINKEDIN HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Guest, Rep. August Pfluger '00 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership, the podcast where we share insights on leadership through the lives and experiences of Air Force Academy graduates. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. In this edition of Long Blue Leadership, we're honored to welcome a distinguished leader whose career spans military service, national security and public office, Congressman August Pfluger is a proud graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, Class of 2000, and currently represents the 11th Congressional District of Texas in the U.S. House of Representatives. Before entering Congress, Congressman Pfluger served for nearly two decades in the United States Air Force, rising to the rank of colonel. He is currently a member of the Air Force Reserve as an F-15 and F-22 fighter pilot. He logged over 300 combat hours in defense of our nation. He has also served as a member of the National Security Council, bringing strategic insight to some of the most complex global threats we face today. Since taking office in 2021 Congressman Pfluger has remained deeply committed to strengthening our national defense. He currently serves on the House Energy and Commerce Committee and the House Homeland Security Committee to critical platforms from which he continues to represent and lead. He is the chairman of the Republican Study Committee and serves as the chairman of the Air Force Academy's Board of Visitors, appointed to the BOV by the speaker of the house in 2023 and elected by his colleagues to serve as chair. Whether in the halls of Congress or in the cockpit, Congressman Pfluger's career has been defined by a steadfast commitment to courageous service and leadership. Congressman Pfluger, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Rep. August Pfluger 1:44 Thank you, Naviere. It's honor to be here with you. Naviere Walkewicz 1:47 Well, we are so glad to have you. And there's something that I want to jump right into, because it really occurred to me how odd this is, but you served for nearly two decades, and when I say nearly two decades in the Air Force, 19 years and four months, and then you pulled the plug, you didn't go to retirement right then. Can we talk about that a little bit? Rep. August Pfluger 2:09 Well, this is not something that most financial advisers would advise you of doing. And I'll tell you, this was a journey in faith, because at almost 20 years. September of 2019, we made a decision, my wife and I made a decision to run for Congress, which meant that we got out of the active duty, joined the Reserve, and started a campaign, something that just a month prior, we had absolutely no intention of doing, and had not even talked about doing. Running for office was something that was always of interest, but certainly not at 19 years and four months. So the opportunity came up, had a couple of phone calls from friends and family to say that the representative who represented my hometown and where I grew up was retiring after 16 years, and a lot of factors. And I'll really take you down this faith journey, a lot of factors happened that we couldn't ignore. And we literally moved back to my hometown of San Angelo that I had not lived in for over 20 years, and started a campaign, which, as you can imagine, was, I mean, it took a lot of courage for my wife, from my family, three little girls, who we uprooted and went through this. But I'm so glad that we did it. But it wasn't without, you know, I can say anxiety and just, you know, the fear, the unknown maybe, and not knowing exactly what would happen. So when you say and use the words, we burned the ships. That was the moment in time that we literally burned the ships and ran a campaign with every piece of our heart and soul. Naviere Walkewicz 3:48 Wow. Well, let's talk about that a little bit, because, you know, we have listeners that make these pivotal moments in their careers. They make these decisions that really shaped them. What was it about that time, other than the incumbent was going to retire. Like, why you? Why then, you know? Let's talk about that a little bit more. Rep. August Pfluger 4:06 Well, this is pre-Covid. And the thought of running for office always sounds good. You know, if you have that interest, you're like, “OK, that'd be great.” Well, then when you kind of get down to the brass tax that you're going to have to put in 14- to 16-hour days and learn how to talk to people about what's important in this district that then it kind of changes things. But honestly, there were signs and things that pointed me and my wife in this direction that we couldn't ignore. And when you look at this type of district, I mean, it's really, in the past 100 years, there's only been about six representatives. So it's not one of those things you say, “Well, maybe we'll wait for next time.” The opportunity was there, there was a window of time. It was about 30 days where we had to make a decision to literally move from northern Virginia back to Texas and start a whole new career. And ended doing so forego the pension for what would now be five or six years, because I've had to work as a reservist to, you know, kind of get back to that point. So there was a financial piece to it. There was a career that was, was going very well that, you know, maybe, are we giving that up? And what happens if we don't win? And then, you know, all these unknowns. So I will say it was, it was definitely the biggest professional decision that I've ever made in my career. Naviere Walkewicz 5:40 So you talked about some of your family members — you had phone calls. It sounds like, your faith and your family are a big part of your decision making. And, when you go forward with things, I think you've talked about your grandfather having been someone that inspired you to go into the Air Force. You know, who are those key players in your family that have really inspired you in your big leadership decisions. Rep. August Pfluger 6:02 Yes, you're right. I had two grandfathers that served in World War II. One was a pilot, and that that led me to make the first decision to go to the Air Force Academy. And that stayed with me. We had nobody in my family who was in politics. I mean, not a single person. In fact, a lot of my family, I had several great uncles and different family members that I'm close to, and they said, “What?” Like, ”What are — you sure you want to do this? And why? Don't you have a really good Air Force career and you've been able to, you know, rise in the ranks and all the things that you've tried to do?” But I honestly — it was kind of a word of wisdom to say, “If you're going to do this, have some good reasons.” Like, “Why do you want to do this?” And the district that I get to represent in my hometown, we have military bases, agriculture and energy, and I love all three of those things. And I think of those as national security-level entities that really dovetail very nicely with my first part of my professional career. Naviere Walkewicz 7:14 That makes sense. So it really was an extension — this new path in your journey was really an extension of what you had done in uniform and active duty and now being able to give it back to your hometown district and the patrons in there as well. Rep. August Pfluger 7:30 Absolutely. And in the campaign I talked about how important it was to be able to provide our own food. We have a lot of cattle ranchers there that are in my district, that you don't want to be dependent on some other country, especially an adversarial country, for your food needs. And the same thing for energy production: that you can't be dependent for energy needs on your adversaries. So those were things that I was able to really talk about, and I mean, oh my gosh, after I actually was elected and got into office, I mean, they became front and center and still are of that discussion. And I think that was the really interesting piece about having been deployed. We were stationed all over the world, almost seven years outside of the United States, on three different continents, and to be able to tie it together and kind of bring that back home and communicate why this place where I grew up and now where I live and where I represent is so important to our national security? Naviere Walkewicz 8:29 Well, you talked a little bit about earlier, about you weren't sure if you were going to get elected, and then when you did, you had to go out and talk to people and really understand the challenges. What is that journey like when it's completely new, right? It's not the same. It's you're not getting into a cockpit. You're not an instructor pilot now. Now you are — you're representing all of them. How do you how do you approach that new path? Because I think that's something when our leaders take this leap of faith and they're looking at, well, how do I approach it? It's completely different from anything I've done. I think they'd like to know how you did it so well. Rep. August Pfluger 8:59 Well, thanks for the question. It was a huge challenge in being a squadron commander, having been an instructor pilot or a mission commander, and having led in actual combat, that that was everything. I mean, I didn't know anything about politics, but what I did know was how to map out a plan and how to put the pieces and parts together. And I knew that nobody was going to outwork me. I mean, come on, you know, when you have a SAMI on Saturday morning, you got to wake up and make your bed and do all the things to get that weekend pass. I mean, you're going to work hard. And so I knew that I had a competitive advantage on the work ethic and the ability to plan and so really, the thing that I realize now, now six years later, is that I think people — what they really appreciated was that I wasn't a career politician, that the things that I was saying and campaigning on were like true passions, and they weren't empty promises. I told them this is what I'm going to do, and I'm proud to report I've done every single one of those things that I told them that I would do, and it's because we were instructed so well, both at school and then as members of the active-duty Air Force about how to follow through and be persistent and just carry through with what you said you're going to do. I mean, integrity is a big piece of this, but I will tell you also that now staying in touch after being elected, elected, I travel throughout these 20 counties all the time, and you have to have some thick skin, because you're going to get some feedback from people that is not always flattering, and they're going to ask you, “Well, why did you vote this way, or what happened here, and why are you not doing this? And this is expensive.” And, I mean, so you have to be willing to take that feedback, which, by the way, sitting in a fighter pilot debrief — I mean, that was the perfect training for having thick skin, to understand that what people are trying to tell you: Is it critical? Without substance? That you really need to listen to them and try to solve these problems? Naviere Walkewicz 11:07 So earlier, you had talked about, I think there are these things that you did at the Academy. No one is going to outwork you have. You always been that type of person, someone that, you know, just kind of works really hard. Or is that something that you kind of developed at the Academy. Rep. August Pfluger 11:21 I developed it at the Academy. But I would say I came in with a with a good work ethic and then was challenged by our classmates, who are amazing, you know? It's like, “Oh my gosh, I'm really not that smart and not that fast and not that… you know, whatever,” because you see all these amazing people. But yes, work ethic was, I mean, I look at it now, having administered how many nominations to service academies? I mean, dozens and dozens of kids that I've gotten a chance to work with over the past five years who are absolutely incredible. I'm like, I don't know if I could get in at this point in time, because they're just incredible. And I had to work very hard at everything I ever did, everything I ever achieved, was because of hard work. It wasn't because I was the best. It was because I just, at the end of the day, worked very hard to get it. I think that's something that's a lesson that we learned during four years at the Academy, but it served me very well in this profession. Naviere Walkewicz 12:22 Was there a particular time at the Academy where you worked really hard and it didn't go your way? And, you know, how did you overcome that? Because I think sometimes the outcome is, “If I if I give it all and I work really hard, I'm going to get to where I want to go.” And if that wasn't the case, how did that actually change the trajectory or shape you? Rep. August Pfluger 12:42 There were multiple times at the Academy that you work hard for something. I mean, I came in as a recruited athlete, had some injuries, and so didn't get a chance to finish all four years that that was hard to go through that process, and it just didn't work out. And or you're just not good enough. And then that was the case too for me, on the football team. But they're just better people, which is awesome and that, but that shaped who I am now, because it is not just about how hard you work. That's a huge piece of it. But you also have to have good timing. You have to have some luck. You have to be in the right place and have been brought up by the right people. And when the when the opportunity strikes you, you've got to be able to take advantage of that timing to do that. And that those lessons — I absolutely remember that there was one instance where I really, really wanted to go to do this exchange program in Egypt, and they were going to bring some of the political science department over there. Well, apparently my grades were not in the right area to be selected for this program. I think I was an alternate or something, unless that's good, that's — it's not nothing. But I was very disappointed, because I thought I worked hard, you know, maybe not hard enough on the grades, but had worked hard to be a part of the conversation, to go. Well, didn't get a chance to do it. So always had that in the back of my mind. Well, I went to Egypt, but it was as a congressman. I led a congressional delegation of six or seven members. We met with the president of Egypt and had very serious conversations about the negotiation for what Gaza has now with the peace deal that we have gotten to and had a, you know, went to the president's palace, got to sit down right next to him and talk to him for over an hour. So I always kept that in the back of my mind that I was going to Egypt one day. Naviere Walkewicz 14:37 That's right. And honestly, you worked really, really hard. You didn't get there, but it kept you — kept that fire going, because you knew at some point you're going to, so it did end up working out, in that case, for sure. You know, one of the things that I find really interesting and fascinating about you is, as you talk about these different experiences you've had, you said they've shaped you. And when you're in the military, can you share a time when you maybe we're in a position that it wasn't what you'd hoped for. You thought it was going to be, but you found it to be incredibly rewarding. Was there anything in that kind of space that happened to you? Rep. August Pfluger 15:10 Yes, several times. You know you want things, you think you want things, and then it doesn't work out. You don't get selected. And always in the back of my mind, every young lieutenant wants to be a weapons officer wants to then be a squadron commander of a fighter squadron, and that's just the competitive side of this. And I was no different when it came time to select who the next squadron commanders were going to be. I'll never forget: My operations group commander came to be and he said, “Well, we got a problem. We have six really talented lieutenant colonels. You're all promoted below the zone, and we have four squadrons, so we're going to have to figure out a Plan B for a couple of you, and I've got something in mind for you.” He said, “I think that you should go be a deployed squadron, commander of an OSS, an operational support squadron.” He said, “We've got a war going on, a conflict with ISIS, and you'd be great.” Well, that's not exactly an easy conversation to go home and to tell your spouse: “Oh, I just got told that I was going to deploy. I'm not going to be a fighter squadron commander here. I'm going to go somewhere else, and I'll be gone a year.” So that was hard, but oh my goodness, what an experience professionally. Obviously, I missed my family, but this was the height of the conflict against ISIS. I had hundreds of people that I got a chance to work with, command, flying combat missions, doing something that mattered, working with our international partners. You know, we were on an Emirati base, and so I worked with the Emiratis on a daily basis, because we had almost 20 different weapon systems, 20 different aircraft there and it was the highlight of my professional career. So God had a plan. It worked out much better than I could have ever engineered, and it turned out — minus the fact that I had to be gone for a year; obviously, nobody likes that — but it turned out to be the best professional year of my Air Force career. Naviere Walkewicz 17:13 I find that really interesting because that — so would that have been the last kind of position you held before going into the move for Congress? Is that correct? Rep. August Pfluger 17:24 You know, actually, I came back — was PCSed to the Pentagon, worked for the chief of staff of the Air Force, General Goldfein, OK, went to a year of War College equivalent in D.C., a fellowship program, and then was assigned to the White House, to the National Security Council, for just about two and a half months before we made — three months before we made the decision to run for Congress. Naviere Walkewicz 17:49 So just a couple things happened after that. [Laughs]. What an amazing run, and the amazing leaders that you got to work with. So was that experience that when you were deployed as a squadron commander and then coming back, did that help shape your thoughts specifically to the Congress role, because you talked about the very three important things, right? Energy, you know, national security and there was one more… and agriculture. Thank you. And so, you know, did that all kind of get settled in when you were in that transition piece from, you know, squadron commander, to your time at the Pentagon in the White House area. Rep. August Pfluger 18:26 Absolutely, I had a year as a deployed squadron commander, came back and worked a year at the Pentagon, which I didn't know how lucky that was. Most people get there two or three years, but work directly for the chief of staff. Heard all of the conversations between Gen. Goldfein and Secretary Heather Wilson and then had a year where I studied at a think tank on Middle East policy. It could not have been a better education with a little bit of time in the White House to prepare me to run for Congress. You look back on that, you go, “Oh, so that's why.” “Oh, these steps were to prepare for this job now,” which I mean, just the fact that, as a member of Congress, I've probably met with 10 or 15 heads of states, one on one, presidents from different countries around the world, and to have that education, to be able to speak intelligently, at least somewhat intelligently, on these issues. Took that the steps that I just went through right there. Naviere Walkewicz 19:31 And you know, something that I think is really interesting to what you just said, working with Gen. Goldfein and with Secretary Wilson, you know, there are so few Academy graduates that have had the opportunities to serve in Congress and to be in the role that you are. How many Academy, Air Force Academy grads we have now have that have done this? Rep. August Pfluger 19:49 There's two currently serving, myself and Don Davis, opposite sides of the aisle, but great friends, and there were only two prior, so there's only been four. And the first two were Heather Wilson was the first Martha McSally, I'll never forget when I got elected. Heather Wilson called me and she said, “Congratulations, you're finally keeping up with us ladies.” And I thought it was great. But you know, we need more graduates, honestly. And I don't care who's listening to this, what side of the aisle you're on, we need more air force academy graduates. There are nine West Pointers currently serving, and seven from Annapolis currently serving, and we've only had four total. Naviere Walkewicz 20:30 All right, it's out there now. We've got our, you know, got our calling. So here we go. You know, I want to ask you a question about, you know, being in Congress, you are on several committees, and you're in leading roles in them. Let's talk a little bit. First about, if you don't mind, I'd like to talk about the Board of Visitors, because I think it's a great opportunity for our graduates to understand actually what the Board of Visitors actually does. So if you don't mind, kind of sharing in your words, you know what your priorities are with the Board of Visitors and what that looks like. I think it'd be really helpful in educating our listeners. Rep. August Pfluger 21:03 Well. Thank you. It's an honor to be on the Board of Visitors. It's statutorily set up by Congress decades ago, and it basically provides an avenue of oversight, something that is appointed both legislatively, by the speaker of the house and by the Senate majority leader and also the president. And, you know, we've got a number of several grads, but a number of senators and congressmen. And, you know, again, one of these timing things that I didn't necessarily intend to run for the chairmanship, but we needed, I think, a graduate to do that, and am proud to be the chairman of this group. You know, Charlie Kirk was on this board, and what a tragic situation that was. We've got a number of really passionate leaders, and our job really is to interact with the institution, to ask questions and to report back directly to the Secretary of War and into the Secretary of the Air Force on the health and welfare of the institution, on any other issues that we think are important. And for me, kind of the driving principle is that I love this institution, the leadership lessons that I learned there and those that I hear from so many graduates are important well beyond military service. They're important for the rest of a graduate's life. And I want to make sure that everything that is going on there, the resources that are needed there, the schedule and the curriculum and the ability to train the next generation of young warriors, both for the space and the Air Force, are the best in the country, and that we are prepared no matter what, that those graduates can go do their job. So it really is an honor to be on the board, but then to be the chairman of it. Naviere Walkewicz 23:03 I can imagine that, and I think it really speaks volumes, the fact that, you know, you're so passionate about it, you've taken what you've had from the Academy, you've applied it in this role. What are the first things that I think you're looking at? You said you talked about the resources and kind of the schedule and things that are happening at the academy. What are the key things that you're looking at right now as a Board of Visitors? Rep. August Pfluger 23:24 Well, I think to start with, I mean, we all know you wake up early, you go bed late, and you're trying to cram, you know, 28 hours into 24 and so the No. 1 thing that I want to see and work through is, how are we continuing to innovate with the best training possible, so that, you know, you can't teach the solution to every problem, but you want to teach a framework of how to think, and that, you know, there's going to be cadets that are challenged through their academic studies, there's going to be cadets that are challenged through their military studies. There's going to be cadets that are challenged athletically, and some that get all three of those, obviously, we all get got all three. But no matter which piece of the puzzle fills, you know, their time, they should get the training that teaches them how to respond in stressful situations, that teaches them how to function as a team, and that that offers them the opportunity to honestly, to experience a little bit of failure, while also knowing that success is right down the road, and that with a little grit, a little determination and a little persistence, that they're going to get there, and that is a challenge, I mean, In a resource-confined environment that we have right now that that's a big challenge, but that's why we have legislators, Senators and House members, They can go fight for those resources to make sure that they're getting that training that they need. Naviere Walkewicz 24:56 Thank you for sharing that you know, I think when you talk about having that framework to critically work through whatever is coming at you, and, you know, fighting for resources. Can you share what is the greatest challenge that you're faced with right now and how you're working through it? Rep. August Pfluger 25:11 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just, you know, from a military standpoint, I'm obviously very biased on what air power and space power does I mean the army will deploy to certain locations. In the Navy will deploy to certain locations. But the Air Force and the Space Force are everywhere. We're in every theater. We've been in every conflict. We are the constant and I don't think resource wise, that that our Department of the Air Force is receiving the resources that it needs proportionately speaking to the threat that we face. We're the smallest and the oldest that we've ever been, and we need to change that immediately. As chairman — you mentioned I was chairman of the Republican Study Committee. What is that? Well, it's a 189-member caucus, committee, policy committee... Naviere Walkewicz 26:01 It's the largest one, right? Rep. August Pfluger 26:02 It's huge. It's the largest committee in Congress, and we meet weekly with Cabinet members and other leaders to discuss policy. But this has been something that I've been passionate about, which we have to take advantage of an environment where some more resources are being put towards our military, and I want to make sure that a larger portion of those go to the Department of the Air Force to meet the threat. And that's just a neat opportunity that it's a competitive election. I had to get elected by my peers. You know, 188 other congressmen and women from across the country. I had to run an election to get elected to it, and now trying to communicate to them why the business of Air and Space power is so important, but, but I'm we're slowly but surely getting there. Naviere Walkewicz 26:53 Well, I'm not sure where you have time when you're you know, you're doing so many things, you're on the road, meeting with your constituents. You're leading. You know these major committees, the Board of Visitors, as chair. Can you talk about how you're balancing? You know, you always talked about being your family is really important to you. How are you balancing that? What does that look like for someone in a leadership role? Rep. August Pfluger 27:13 Well, it's obviously the biggest challenge that any of us face, which is making sure that you take care of the most fundamental and important piece of your life, which is your family and being gone. I mean, I go to Washington, D.C., on Monday, and generally come home Thursday or Friday, and that's about three weeks out of every four. So my wife, is the most important piece of this, because she allows me to do this, and I couldn't do it without her, honestly. And then secondly, you know, we had a scare this summer because two of my girls were at Camp Mystic. And you know, that was that really brought things back to such a fundamental level that, you know, my No. 1 job on this earth is to be a husband and a father, a person of faith. And I'll tell you that that was, that was a transformational moment in it, just in my in my life, because when you have two daughters that were that thankfully came home and in then you see 27 others that didn't, that they knew that we knew the families and we were close to that. This has put everything back into perspective, that the service that I'm doing should be focused on a foundation of family and faith, and that none of it matters if you don't take care of that. Naviere Walkewicz 28:41 So what does that look like in how you lead? How does that shape the decisions you make in your role in Congress, as a reservist? And then for our listeners, you know, how do they put those important things first in the midst of having to make other decisions professionally? Rep. August Pfluger 29:01 I think a lot of it is, maybe not so much, the “what” in the decision, but it's the “how,” you know, you carry yourself, and you know on the other side of the aisle. I mean, I'm going to fight policies that I don't agree with all day long. But I think the how I do that, what I want my daughters to know is that they had a dad that was very firm in his beliefs. So I think that's, you know, when I look at it kind of like from the, “OK, what's important?” OK, being a good dad, not just saying the right things, but actually going and carrying those out. I think the how you carry them out is really important. And then, you know the specifics of legislation. There are things that, if I believe in in taking care of the American family, then there are things that I'm going to advocate for, not, not to make this to political of a discussion, but I think you can see through my track record that that I have focused on those things that would help strengthen the family, Naviere Walkewicz 30:08 The “how” is really, it's part of your legacy, right? And I think that's what your children are seeing as well, in the way that you, you, you do what you do. And I think as leaders, that's something really important to be thinking about. So I'm really thankful that you shared that example. Shared that example. Have you found that your leadership style has evolved, or has it already always been kind of rooted in you know, who you've been and you've just kind of tweaked it a little bit? Or have you seen yourself evolve more than you would have expected? Rep. August Pfluger 30:40 Yes, it has evolved, but, and I hope for the better, we'd have to ask others what they think of that, but, but, you know, look, growing up in a professionally in a fighter squadron, there were three tenants that they even though I didn't go to weapon school, they teach you this to be humble, credible and approachable. I mean, think about that. Those are the core tenants of who our lead warriors are, and that is not what you see. When you think of politicians. You think, Well, they're braggadocious and annoying. And you know, OK, and I hope I don't fall into that category. I need to do some self-reflection every once while, but, but I've got a staff of almost 40 people, and I have 434 other colleagues that you have to work with. So you better believe that you've got to be humble because there are people who are better than you in every category. You better believe that being approachable in this job is really important, because people are going to come to you and they're going to need something, or you're going to need something from them, and if you don't have the credibility of what you're talking about or what you're leading, then you're not going to get anything done. And so I've really had to work on all three of those things since I was elected to make sure that tying that to a servant leadership model. We started out in 2021, and I told my team, I said, we are going to do everything we possibly can to make other people that I am working with, other congressmen and women better. And they said, Wait, what? I said, Yeah, this isn't about me getting the limelight. We will get plenty of limelight, but let's work on giving other people the credit, giving other people the opportunities, calling on their expertise, pushing them up. And it will all work out, and we will achieve everything we wanted to achieve for the district that I represent, and it was just like this lightning bolt of it was so antithetical to the way that many people in Congress think. And I am not saying that we have changed the world, but when you're elected to basically a conference-wide position like I am, then you really have hard conversations with people, and those conversations people said, You know what, you've helped me out. I'm going to vote for you. And that meant everything, Naviere Walkewicz 33:08 Humble, approachable, credible, what great lessons for our leaders. And I think that translates across anything you're doing. Of the three, it seems that credible would probably be the hardest to achieve, right? It's a time-based thing. How would you recommend that our leaders, especially those that are growing in their leadership roles, achieve that when they don't necessarily have the time right in? Rep. August Pfluger 33:38 It's so hard, but that grit, that determination, I mean, the study, the thing, all the things we learned, you know, it's like they give you. The academic instructors are like a torture chamber, because they know you can't study everything, so you have to prioritize, which is a lesson I think I still draw on today. But I think that credibility comes from if you're going to be an expert in something, you've got to study it. You've got to know it, and people have to trust you. So when you tell them something, it has to be the truth, and they have to know well, I don't know that particular policy issue, but I know Pfluger does, because, you know he did that in his career. He studied that. So I think that grit and that determination and the prioritization of your time is so important, you can't do it all. I mean, we just can't. You have to. You have to make a choice, and those choices have to then go towards the goals that you're setting for yourself. Naviere Walkewicz 34:32 Excellent, excellent lessons. So you've accomplished so much since 2021, you know? What's next? What are you trying to work towards next? Rep. August Pfluger 34:43 I mean, there's so many different like policy issues I'm not going to bore you with. Let's just talk about the big picture, the elephant in the room, which is how divided our country is, and it's heartbreaking to see. You know, I think back to like, the aftermath of 911 I literally 911 happened two weeks prior to my pilot training graduation. You as a Class of '99 were right in the same boat. I mean, we were our professional careers were turned upside down, but our country came together, and that that was kind of the I think that that was the best thing to see how many people that were divided on whatever lines kind of came together. We're very divided, and it is hard to see and from I want to see an end of the radical sides of our parties and a normal conversation. We should be able to have a normal debate in Congress about whatever issues of spending and things like that. And we should be able to then slap each other on the back and say, Yeah, good job you won that one. Or, you know, good job I won this one. That should be kind of the norm. And I've got so many good friends who are Democrats that it's there, but the pull to radicalization is it's alive and well. And to be honest, this is why we need more Academy graduates who are doing this type of work, whether it's running for local office or running for Congress or Senate or whatever, because we get it. We get it from being a part of something that was greater than ourselves and being a part of a mission that it wasn't about, I it was literally about the team of success. And I think it's, it's veterans that are in these leadership positions that are going to help be a part of this, so that that really, I really do want to see that that doesn't mean that I'm not going to fight tooth and nail for policy that I believe in, which is partisan at times. And I'm OK with that, but what I'm not OK with is demonizing somebody for having a different belief. Let's go fight the merits of it, but not, not the character of the other person. Naviere Walkewicz 37:03 Thank you for sharing that. I think, you know, just putting the elephant on the table, I think, is really important. That's what it is about conversation. It's about dialog and so thank you for sharing that. For sure, this has been an incredible conversation. We've kind of navigated different parts of your career, you know, your leadership journey, maybe, if I could ask you this, what is something you're doing every day, Congressman Pfluger, to be better? Rep. August Pfluger 37:29 I think, in faith life, really trying to tie in spiritually, and to not be the one in control, trying to be more present in in my family's life, I'm going to give you three or four. So, you know, just being more intentional, putting the phone down, like if I'm going to sit down with my kids and be there, because I could be on the phone 24 hours a day. So put the phone down, talk to my wife be engaged, and that that's really that, that, I think that's a challenge for anybody who is in any adult right now, quite frankly, but especially those that are in leadership positions, which all of our graduates are, and so just put the phone down and being engaged, and it's hard. It's like, “Oh, I got to take care of this, you know, I got to call that person back. We've got to do this.” But you know that is, I think that that is probably the No. 1 thing that then allows a stronger faith life, a stronger relationship with my family. Physically, still taking the Air Force PT test, got a 99 last year. Was very proud of that and so trying to stay physically fit. Naviere Walkewicz 38:48 That's outstanding! Rep. August Pfluger 38:49 There are some other graduates who have challenged me with that. You may know Joel Neeb? A classmate of yours. Naviere Walkewicz 38:58 Oh yeah! I know Thor. Rep. August Pfluger 39:00 Thor is awesome. And he's been such an inspiration. I could name 100 people, but he said he's a really good inspiration to so many people. And on all the things that you just the things that I answered for your question, he's been a good inspiration on. Naviere Walkewicz 39:15 I would agree with that wholeheartedly. Yes. Well, thank you for that. Can you also share, you know, knowing what you know now through the years that you've experienced, you know your hardships, the triumphs — what would you share with our growing leaders that they can do today to help them be stronger down the road? Rep. August Pfluger 39:37 You know, I think some self-reflection, like, how do you see yourself, and how does the world see you? And is this — does it match up? Because if it's different, if your opinion of yourself is higher than that of what other people are thinking and your work ethic and what you're bringing to the to the table, then then you need to do some self-reflection. And I again, I got back to my career as a fighter pilot, which was perfect for politics. You know, you got to learn to work as a team. You have people debriefing you, and there's critical thoughts on your actions, of how you perform. But I think any leader, it needs to first have the grit to be able to stick with it. It's not always the best person that gets the job, but I can promise you, the person who keeps seeking that job and has that drive, they're going to get there. That has been the story of my life and self-reflection, to go What's stopping me from getting there is probably the key, as long as you have that grit, that self-reflection, to have some clarity for whatever goal you want to achieve. That's my humble opinion of what I would tell myself 15 years ago. Naviere Walkewicz 41:00 Wow. And I think that does kind of give us a moment to just sit in it and think about that as we are, you know, trying to be our best selves and to continue to evolve as leaders. What a great way to do that, right? Just reflect some self-reflection. I want to make sure we have an opportunity. If there's anything that I didn't ask you, that you feel is really important to share with our listeners. What would that be? Rep. August Pfluger 41:24 Well, there were a couple of things. No. 1, I was trying to think back — because your Class of '99 and I'm Class of 2000 — on whether or not I had to get in the front-leaning rest and recite John Stuart Mill's poem, or not. I can't remember that, so maybe I snuck by. Naviere Walkewicz 41:45 Definitely a front-leaning rest kind of gal. I have pretty strong abs. I can handle that. Rep. August Pfluger 41:51 You know, I just, I want to go back to what how important our institution is, because we're in that other dimension. We're in the air, in the space domain. We're solving problems in our professional career that I mean, think about where we've come since the Wright Brothers demonstrated we could fly and now, you know all the things that we're doing in air and space, and that's because of our graduates. And you know, I just, I really want to have a call out to our graduates that your leadership in a variety of ways is needed. It's needed in the business community, in Fortune 500 companies. It's needed in your local communities. It's needed at the national level of politics; there are several candidates for Congress right now who are graduates. I'm helping them, and I will help anybody. I don't care what party you are, of course, I have my favorite, but I will help any person who is looking to run for something like this. This is what I know now. But we really do need your leadership in order to bring the temperature down, to unite our country, to make sure that we're going to be successful. It's not if it's a matter of when we're going to face that next big, truly existential threat and challenge to our country. And guess what? I trust the people that were right there next to be in the front, winning rest, reciting all of those quotes and having to do a little bit harder of a standard in our four years of education than other institutions. And so I trust our graduates, but we need you, and we really need you to take that opportunity and serve in any possible way that you can. Naviere Walkewicz 43:45 Wow. Thank you for sharing that. I think that that is a perfect way a call to action, so to speak, for all of us you know the service after the service, so this has been incredible. Congressman Pfluger, thank you for your time today. Rep. August Pfluger 43:57 Well, Naviere, thank you for reaching so many graduates and looking forward to a Bitton Army and Navy again next year. Naviere Walkewicz 44:04 That's right next year. Well, you know, as I reflect on this conversation, you know, one theme really rises above others, courage, the grit, you know, not just the courage we often associate with the battlefield or moments of crises, but the quiet, steady courage that it takes to lead with conviction every day, Congressman Pfluger reminded us that true leadership means standing firm in your values even when the path may be uncertain or the stakes may be high, it's the kind of courage that doesn't seek comfort, but instead answers to responsibility. So as you think about your own leadership journey, ask yourself, Where is courage calling you? Where is that grit gonna take you? Whether it's in the workplace, in your community or your personal life, lean into those moments, because courage, real, principled, humble, courage is what transforms good leaders into great ones. Thank you for listening to this edition of Long Blue Leadership. If you know someone who needs encouraging words in their leadership journey, please share this podcast with them as well. I'm Naviere Walkewicz. Until next time. KEYWORDS August Pfluger, Long Blue Leadership Podcast, U.S. Air Force Academy, leadership lessons, congressional service, fighter pilot, national security, grit and resilience, service after service, Air Force Board of Visitors, faith and family leadership, career transition, public service, humble credible approachable, air and space power. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
When Rebecca Gray '94 arrived at her first duty station, she thought she was ready to lead — until a senior master sergeant told her to get a coffee cup and led her away from the safety of her desk. “You've got to know who people are, so that you know how to relate to them,” he told her. That simple moment became the foundation of her entire leadership journey. SHARE THIS PODCAST LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK REBECCA'S TOP 5 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS 1. Lead With Authentic Connection Genuinely care about your team members as people, not just colleagues—know their stories, show real interest in their lives, and let authenticity drive your leadership style. This builds trust and drives engagement. 2.Adapt and Balance Across Life's Seasons Recognize that leadership and career paths aren't always linear. It's important to intentionally adapt your role and focus to meet the current stage of your life, whether that means prioritizing family, professional growth, or personal health. 3. Translate Core Values Across Environments Military leadership lessons—like accountability, communication, and team cohesion—are just as powerful in civilian life. Carry these values into new environments and roles, and tailor them to fit each unique context. 4. Empower Others Through Example Be a “working leader” by setting the pace and modeling the behaviors you want to see. Encourage your team's growth by giving responsibility, asking for input, and trusting them to rise to new challenges—even if it means letting them make mistakes. 5. Continuous Self-Development Fuels Leadership Commit to lifelong learning and personal development through regular habits—like reading, exercise, and reflection. Maintaining intellectual curiosity and a growth mindset not only strengthens your leadership but also inspires others to do the same. CHAPTERS 0:00:04 – Introduction to the Podcast and Guest Rebecca Gray 0:00:29 – The Coffee Cup Lesson: Early Leadership and the Influence of Senior Master Sergeant Kennedy 0:01:48 – Authentic Connection: Lessons Carried From the Military to Corporate Leadership 0:03:32 – The Power of Authenticity and Understanding Team Members' Lives 0:04:49 – Translating Military Leadership Lessons to the Corporate World 0:07:58 – Creating Team Connection in Remote and Fast-Paced Environments 0:11:47 – Memorable Military Leadership Influences 0:13:24 – Balancing Military Service, Family, and Career Transitions 0:16:53 – Career as Seasons: Crafting Balance and Intentionality 0:19:19 – Navigating Critical Career Junctures and Embracing Change 0:22:18 – Building Confidence and Trusting Yourself 0:23:46 – Fostering Confidence and a ‘Go Mentality' on the Team 0:25:39 – Leading and Aligning Family and Professional Goals 0:27:28 – Practicing Continuous Learning and Personal Development 0:28:32 – Advice to Emerging Leaders: Value Well-Roundedness and Humility 0:29:43 – Reflections on Alumni, Family Connection, and Leadership Beyond the Academy 0:30:15 – Closing Thoughts on Leadership, Service, and Authentic Paths ABOUT REBECCA BIO Rebecca Gray ‘94, Boingo Wireless senior vice president and general manager, leads a division providing soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines connectivity wherever they go. Alongside her military service, she's held leadership roles at Fortune 200 companies in energy, media and telecommunications — including Southern Company and Comcast NBCUniversal — and has volunteered with multiple nonprofits. Her focus is on innovation that strengthens communities and keeps people connected. A three-time All-American springboard diver, Gray started her Air Force journey as a recruited athlete at the U.S. Air Force Academy. After graduation, she trained as a World Class Athlete and competed for Team USA at the 1995 World Games in Rome. She's served in key leadership roles across the Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve, including deputy wing commander at the 111th Attack Wing in the Pennsylvania ANG, as well as director of staff for the Georgia ANG. She's also a graduate of the Secretary of Defense Fortune 500 Corporate Fellowship Program and earned her doctorate after studying around the globe in Israel, England, India and China. She and her husband — an Air Force Academy '93 grad — married at the Cadet Chapel in 1994. They have three daughters: Jasmine, a junior at Bates College; Grace, a sophomore at Centenary University; and Kennedy, a freshman at NJIT. Their Yorkie, Cookie, has become a seasoned traveler, having visited all but two states in the continental U.S. CONNECT WITH REBECCA LINKEDIN BONIGO WIRELESS CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Guest, Rebecca Gray '94 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz 00:04 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership, where we explore the lessons of leadership through the lives and stories of Air Force Academy graduates. I'm your host, Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. When Rebecca Gray walked into her first duty station after graduating from the Academy, she thought she was ready to lead. But it wasn't a general, a colonel or a policy manual that changed her view of leadership. It was a senior master sergeant named Patrick J. Kennedy and a coffee cup. Rebecca Gray 00:29 He said, “You're doing this all wrong. You need to be out, out, out.” He told me, “Go grab a coffee cup.” I didn't drink coffee at the time, so he goes, “Go get some water. Stop being difficult.” And he walked me around and said, “This is this is what matters. You've got to know who people are, so that you know how to relate to them.” That really shaped me. Naviere Walkewicz 00:50 That simple moment became the foundation for how Rebecca has led her teams ever since. From the Air Force to corporate boardrooms, from public service to private equity, Rebecca Gray, USAFA, Class of '94, has led across nearly every domain — active duty, Reserve and Guard — and built a remarkable second career spanning nonprofit work, education and now executive leadership. Her path has been shaped by transformational moments, moments that taught her how to connect, to trust herself and to lead with conviction. Rebecca, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Rebecca Gray 01:23 Thank you so much for having me. It's just a privilege to be here. Thank you for what you're doing for the grads, for the parents, for alumni, all of that. It's really impressive. Naviere Walkewicz 01:31 Oh gosh. Really appreciate that. And I think, you know, that clip was so wonderful to hear. And I think we should just jump right in to that moment in time, kind of winding back the clock when you were just really transformed in your leadership style by your senior enlisted leader. Can we talk about that? Rebecca Gray 01:48 I was just, had just graduated, and, as you said, my first duty assignment, and the only officer in the shop. And so senior master sergeant, which is one rank below chief — so the top, one of the top senior enlisted advisers in my shop, and we went for a walk and he really just taught me how to connect with the troops, to connect with people, walk around, get to really know them. And I'll have to tell you the first time I did it, I did a pass through, I went through the motions, if you will. And, you know, I came back, I was like, “Oh, OK, I did it. I did it. I'm all… I'm good, and have done my leadership duty for the day.” And he asked me, he said, “Who got a new car?” And I mentioned the airman's name of who got a new car. He goes, “What color was the car and what was the type of car?” And I was like, “Oh, OK.” And he goes, “So you didn't really care.” And I thought that's true, that's actually accurate. I needed to really care about what his first car was, and was it a truck? Was it a sedan? What was it? And so that really shaped me into really caring in a way that's already in your heart. But how do you express that in a leadership capacity? And so that changed the course of my 30-plus years in the military and then in corporate. Naviere Walkewicz 03:07 What a powerful story. I mean, we can actually visualize you walking around. And as you know, graduates, we are kind of like, you know, task-minded. We're going to get this done. And you did it. You check the box. But to go down that next level, how do you see that actually becoming actionable across, you know, all leadership levels, you know, where you're actually walking the walk with your troops, so to speak. Can you talk about that a little bit more? Rebecca Gray 03:32 Well, I think you have to be authentic, and be your authentic, you know, be authentic in your heart and what you're really doing. And if you don't have that, then people can feel it. People can tell if they don't feel your connection or your care concern for them. I think that really just mirrored an opportunity for me to put the two together. To your point, we're very task-minded, results-driven. When you graduate, very results-driven. It still impacts me every day, to be results, but you were doing it alongside of other people who have lives and who have things going on in their personal and professional lives, and we bring that to the table too, and really connecting with that and how to motivate people, how to encourage, how to walk with people and help them get to the results that they need to do, you know, as part of your team. Naviere Walkewicz 04:29 Maybe, can you share an example of how you're using this? You said this has impacted you over the past 30 years. You know, it seems very clear — we're in an in middle military setting, and you're, you know, amongst your troops, you're leading beside them, you're understanding. How does that translate now and where you're at in the corporate world, at your level of leadership. What does this look like? Rebecca Gray 04:49 I think that's a really good question, because when you look at it, you can see it very easily in the military. It plugs and plays very easily. Once you understand and you put it all together and you can develop it. You get a opportunities to develop that every day, if you will, every day you get that opportunity. But I think when you translate it into civilian life — and we all end up having a civilian life after the military — whether it's, you know a first-term enlistment, whether it's your first duty assignment, you fulfill your active-duty commitment from the Academy, whatever those years are. Whether you, you know, finish your 20 or what have you, you do transition out of military life at some point in time. Naviere Walkewicz 05:37 Let's talk about what you're doing right now. I think it's important for our listeners to understand what that looks like and, you know, how you're leading in that space. Rebecca Gray 05:44 Oh my gosh. I am so excited about what I do. It's the best job I've ever had. It's a great company that I work for. I work for Boingo Wireless. And what I do — my job at the company is to do anything that relates to the military. So we provide connectivity to over 100 bases around the world. I've got an incredible team that many of them have served, either as a veteran retiree or still serving. You have to understand what they know. What is their background? Where have they been? Where have they served, so to speak? What companies have they worked in? What role, leadership roles? What technology have they been around? What schools have they been to? All those things, and then also some of their things that are going on in their personal life so that you understand what's bringing them to work every day to support their personal and professional goals. And so you have to translate that, take that military experience and put that into the civilian workforce. And I think it's very powerful. It's so natural. I really actually don't think about it as much because you've developed it so such a tried and true part of who your character becomes, that coming back into civilian life and transitioning back into it, it's a great opportunity to bring all of those skill sets and move right into that — in leading teams, in learning that new chain of command, if you will, in corporate. And so that's a really powerful thing, and it feels like it's an enjoyable part of my day is the people I get to work with, the quality of people I get to work with. If I don't have that connection, I feel like I'm missing something at the end of the day. Naviere Walkewicz 07:36 Can you share an example in which to that level that, you know, that the senior master sergeant said, “Did you know what type of car it was?” Where you've actually got to that level with someone, maybe in your civilian career, and how that has… Have you seen that actually make an impact on either performance or the results, or really just their own worth? Rebecca Gray 07:58 Well, I think that's an interesting question. I think that can be played in two different areas. If you're in the office, there's an ability to be connected just by having lunch together, by having coffee, you know, you're in and you're around and about, and physically, there's just a different kind of energy when you're around people. So my team, we get together at some regular intervals that we set as a team for the year. We do one big, we call it an all-hands, an annual meeting, we're going to Vegas this year, and we're going in February. And so we're bringing the entire team; everybody's coming out of the field, everybody's coming from around the world, and they're all coming. We're meeting in Vegas, and we're going to spend a couple days together talking about what we accomplished last year, what we're going to do in the future, and then we also do some learnings, and, you know, things like that, some technology growth opportunities and things like that. So that's one thing that shows that you use… You're going to spend some budget dollars to really ensure that people know how you feel and how you value them as being part of this team, and making sure… I spend every other week planning this for a year and we do that every other week, and we talk about the hotel, we talk about the food, we, you know — our team-building exercises, the agenda, the T-shirts, the design of those, every detail, because I want my team to walk away at the end of that — we'll probably have over 100 people in the room — and I want everyone to walk out of that knowing that they are a valuable member of the team. So that's one thing we do, you know, on my team. And then on Monday mornings, we have a staff meeting every Monday morning, a team meeting, and the first question of the day is, “What did you do for the weekend?” And that's where we learn about all kinds of, you know, really fun things about people and what they're doing, what they're doing with their family, or who they're, you know, trying to date, or, you know, buying a new house, or, you know, all kinds of things that you learn. And then also you develop that within the team, because other people hear that question, and otherwise it's very transactional. This is what you do. This is what you can do for me. And in this fast-paced technology world, taking that time at the beginning of the meeting to say, “Let's take a pause, and I want to hear about you.” And so to me, that's another small thing, but a very powerful thing. In a fast-paced technology space, I think it's even more critical to take a pause, to take a stop and take a breath and realize the people that we're working with are… It's a gift to have this opportunity to work with one another, and I want them to feel a part of the team, even though we're in a remote setting, because most of my team is in the field. And so in that remote setting, that is even more critical, I think. So I think there's both, you know… When you're in the office, there's one way to do things, and then when you're in this more remote setting that we are — and then we're in a fast-paced technology setting. It's moving all the time, and sometimes you get into more activity and results and results and activity, and you accomplish one thing, and you're on to the next and, and that's… I don't know if that wheel spinning so fast is always, you know, healthy. Naviere Walkewicz 11:15 Well, I really appreciate how you actually gave very specific examples of this leadership in action, because you're right: In this pace and in this remote kind of setting that many of us operate in, being able to still find that human touch and that connection to what you were speaking about that went all the way back to, you know, the senior master sergeant. But I'm sure you also had leaders throughout your military career that also exemplified some of this. Can you share any other moments while you're in uniform, where you saw some of these leadership traits that you really wanted to embody and that you've carried through your career to date? Rebecca Gray 11:47 Gen. Hosmer was the, I think he was the calm when I was at the Academy, and he would walk around with his A-jacket. So you didn't really know if he was a cadet or not, because once you put your hat on, you can't tell. But, and you know, “Oh my gosh, it was a general just walked past me.” But he knew people's names. He remembered my name, and he remembered it for four years, and it was just a powerful moment that I remembered on my graduation, when we walked through the line with your parents, and you're doing that reception, and he said, “Rebecca, congratulations. Well done, and you did great.” And all those kinds of you know things. And I'll never forget that walk, whether he was walking on the Terrazzo and called my name, whether he remembered it going through a line of 1,000 people with all their parents, and you know, all of that. And I think that's always stuck with me, that level of remembering somebody's name, remembering who they are, that really was powerful to me early on in my military career. Naviere Walkewicz 12:48 Oh, thank you for sharing that, because those are the moments that so many people can connect with that really do imprint on them and how they are as leaders, you know, and I'm curious, because… Rebecca Gray 12:57 That's a good word, “imprint.” That's a really good word, “imprint.” Naviere Walkewicz 13:03 Yeah, it feels that way. Thank you. Thank you. You know, I would love to dive into your Air Force career and the decision to transition out, because I just imagine in the way that you have done so many incredible things that your time in the military was very successful. Can you talk about what that was and then the decision to transition, why that came about and why you made it? Rebecca Gray 13:24 That's a very powerful decision. It's a big decision to come into the military, and it's a big decision when it's time to leave. And those are hard decisions. And sometimes you leave too early, sometimes you stay in too long. You know, different things like that. But for me, it was my husband was a '93 grad. So I'm '94 he was '93 we got married at the Cadet Chapel right after I graduated in September. I share that because my husband and I were dual spouse, joint spouse. We were just talking about it the other day, because we just celebrated — it was our 31st wedding anniversary — and we looked at it and we said, “Gosh, you know, what a ride we've had.” And we got to know each other. We were in the same cadet squadron. We were both in 29 for three years and sophomore through senior year. And we both looked at each other. We were going to get separated. I was going to do a remote to Korea. He was going to Malstrom in Montana, and my follow on was Vegas, at Nellis. And so we realized we were going to be as separated for a few years, and that was a really big decision for us, because we loved the military, we loved our lifestyle, we loved our friends, we loved the camaraderie and all the things that you love, and we realized, where does that fit with our marriage and how do we pull this off? And so I think along the way, we've really tried to drive a commitment to service. We both went off active duty. We decided to go into the Reserve together, and then I eventually went into the Guard. So I ended up serving active duty, Guard and Reserve, which was really wasn't done back in the day. Naviere Walkewicz 15:04 No, I was going to say… Rebecca Gray 15:07 No, that was not done. I mean, you stay active duty for 20 years. You stay Reserve. You might do active duty and then Reserve, but to finish up and get to your 20… But I had three little children, and so I was able to do the Reserve. And so I think what's great about the military is, if you are open to looking at your career and seeing it as a different stages and phases of your life and letting it shape and form around that too, there are ways to serve. That was the way I felt called to serve. I think other people, active duty is the way to go, or Reserve or Guard is the way to go, you know, straight through. But for me, it gave me the flexibility, and I found that it was a lot of fun to do it that way. I got to learn different things in each of the different statuses, if you will. And I was able to put a whole career together with three little kids, and, you know, 31 years of marriage. Naviere Walkewicz 16:04 Well, I think as a leader, those decision points — and it sounds like you were really well grounded in, you know, what do we want to commit to. Commitment to service, a commitment to each other. But I think what is so special about your career, when you look at it in seasons or in stages, is you've had some incredible opportunities to still continue to thrive professionally, even as those stages change. And if you wouldn't mind sharing some of that, because I think there's times when listeners feel like, “If my trajectory is not vertical, like in one path that you know, that everyone kind of recognizes as the path, then it's not successful.” But to your point, if you look at it in stages, and what is this stage, how do I evolve in this stage? In this stage? And maybe it's not always directly vertical, but we're still moving in it at an angle. I think it's powerful for our listeners to hear, if you don't mind sharing what that's been like. Rebecca Gray 16:53 I made a very intentional decision to serve as a squadron commander in a certain season. So I wanted to build a life that had different components to it, and to do that, that meant you have to be intentional about that if you want to stay on one path. And I think as this world gets more complex, the technology is moving very fast. You want to stay balanced. I think the only way you can stay balanced in life is to really have different components of your life. There's a time to be a squadron commander, there's a time to be a senior leader. There's a time to be an individual contributor and there's a time to say this is, you know, for whatever myriad of reasons, health or family dynamics, or you're going through a degree program. And so you have to kind of make those things to ebb and flow appropriately. And I wanted to put those building blocks and pieces together to make something really interesting and a reason to wake up in the morning and something that got me out of bed. I do Squadron Officer School. I do, you know, ACSC, and then War College. And so you can end up checking these boxes and checking, you know, different assignments and different levels. Just like you graduate from college, you got to meet certain, you know, credit requirements and different kinds of classes and things like that. So I'm not saying it's a negative, but it shouldn't be a mindset. It should be just the way you need to get certain things done. Naviere Walkewicz 18:17 And by the way, Sgt. Kennedy would come back and be like, “This is not enough, ma'am.” So, but you know what I really loved about what you just described? This might be the first time I've heard the description of balance, because you did it in a way that — you talked about balance being almost having holistic, a holistic view of various pillars. And there's times when you know you're bringing one of the forefront, so you're not ever saying they're in balance, where they're all, you know, equitable or like, everything is just, you know, the scale is exactly the same on both sides. But what you're saying is, there's time when you're bringing stuff to the forefront, but I'm really aware of the all of those pieces, and I think that is such a wonderful way to look at balance. Which brings me to this question of, you know, you have approached your career and, you know, being a mother and a wife was such, you know, a unique view. When did you know it was time to add onto your plate in this nonprofit space? And then you go, you know, going… So it just seems like you've made these decisions at critical points. How do you measure when that next point is supposed to come around and you take that leap? Rebecca Gray 19:19 Sometimes, life gives you that opportunity to take a step back and say, “OK, I'm now at a critical juncture. What do I want to do?” That can be your, you know, your health, or a family dynamic, or you get accepted into a program and you want to do this. When I got accepted into that secretary of defense corporate fellowship program that's basically Air War College in residence. You can imagine doing Air War College in residence as a Guard member was very prestigious, an incredible opportunity, and then they sucked me into this fellowship opportunity. But that really changed my trajectory, because at the time, I was in nonprofit, and it pulled me out, put me back in uniform for one year. That was a one-year commitment to do War College in that capacity. And then it was after that I decided to move into corporate. And so I think there's certain times when you get those moments, and what I think is, people race through those — I think they race through that moment. And instead to take a stop and a pause and say, “Do I want to make a change at this moment? Do I want to do this?” I really didn't want to make that change. I didn't want to come out of nonprofit at the time. I didn't want to do War College in residence. I didn't want to do some of those things. And instead, I took it and I said, “I don't know where this is heading, but I'm OK with where this is gonna go.” And I don't think sometimes you need to know all those pieces before you make those decisions. And I think — because then if you need that, you're never going to have it. I mean, you just don't. And so for me, it's always a moment where you stop and you say, “This is an opportunity for me to change where I live, to change my career, to change a family dynamic.” Do you add another kid? Do you, you know, stop at three? You know, what do you do? I think what I have tried to really do is stop and really have it like, really, I really take it… Really take that moment and have that moment and say, this is a moment for me to say, is, “What do I need to change? What do I want to change?” Or nothing? Do I want — I keep going, but I have made that decision. Naviere Walkewicz 21:30 Well, what I'm hearing from that is a level of confidence in yourself that you've probably developed over time. From, you know, the different interactions you've had from… I mean, wearing so many hats has probably actually given you a stronger confidence in what you're able to accomplish, what your capacity is when you don't really know what's all around you, so to speak, you don't have all the answers. Can we talk a little bit about when you knew that, or when you recognize that in yourself? Because when you made those decisions and you said you walked through those doors with your eyes wide open, you're essentially betting on yourself, right? You have built this trust and confidence in your ability. Can you talk about what that looks like? How you came to that? Because I think there's times where our listeners have this doubt, this self-doubt, so let's talk about that. Rebecca Gray 22:18 If you have good, good people around you, you ask for good advice. You have a, I think, a faith that can ground you. And you know that you've been given these gifts and this skill set, and you've made certain mile markers in life. I think it just builds over time. Naviere Walkewicz 22:39 Would you say that you recognized, I guess, betting on yourself and confidence in yourself early in the years when you started diving and recognized, “Wow, this is scary, but OK,” right? Or was it more developed later? Rebecca Gray 22:52 I started diving when I was 10, and you know, I would be up there on the diving board. I was a little 10-year-old, and sometimes you couldn't get walked down the board. You were terrified. My coach would sit there and she would say, “OK, we're gonna go — 1, 2, 3,” and you go, you learn how to walk down that diving board, and you learn how to do things that you you're not really confident on, and you're not really… But once you master it, it's really fun. It's probably from, I think, diving, athletics, I think does that to you. You know, whether you're chasing that soccer ball and you got to go up against somebody bigger, whether you're in football, and you got to go off up against… My husband was a fullback at the Air Force Academy, and so he went up against lineman at Notre Dame and Ohio State and things like that. And he goes, “It was terrifying.” And so… But when the whistle blows and the play calls called you. You go and so you develop that strength some somehow along the way to push through. Naviere Walkewicz 23:46 How have you developed those that have come under your care as a leader that maybe didn't have that athletic background? How do you teach them that? How do you instill in them that “go” mentality, that, you know, fear is just your body's response, gets your blood, you know, your blood flowing. How do you do that as a leader? Rebecca Gray 24:03 I think, I think you do it by going out ahead and standing out there, and maybe you're the only one out there, so to speak, ahead of it, ahead of the team, in believing whatever direction you need to go, whatever new business direction you need to go in, or what new product line you need to develop, or what new revenue goals do you need to accomplish? And you have to go out there, and you've got to do it yourself. I'm probably more of a working leader than a leader that manages. I'm not the best manager, if you will, but I can get out in front. But I think, for me, it's just been leading out in the head, going out there and saying, this is the direction, building that conversation across the team leaders to make sure we're aligned, to make sure we're thinking the same thing. Are you reading the market the way I'm reading the market? Are you reading some of these leadership decisions within the industry that we're reading? And are we seeing this the same way — bouncing those ideas off and then developing that and that groundswell to really go for it. Naviere Walkewicz 25:06 I want to ask you this question that's tied to this idea of understanding your capacity, your capabilities, your talents, your strengths, betting on yourself, and how you've been able to do that while you still successfully have a 31-year marri… right? Like a marriage and a family that has to also buy into those decisions. What does that look like as a leader when you're making those decisions, when you have children and a family or a spouse, you know? How do you navigate that when they also have their goals? Rebecca Gray 25:39 Oh, it's so deep. It's so deep because… Naviere Walkewicz 25:43 It's real because this is what they're facing. You know, all of our leaders are facing these questions. Rebecca Gray 25:47 It is, it is. You're facing these decisions back at home, and what you've got to manage at home. You know, my husband, I really lead, and we lead by example — that we take care of our business and we do our things. And as soon as the girls were able to do a lot of things for themselves, we gave them that responsibility. That really helped. I think your kids are pretty capable, and they're really strong and they're very smart and they're wise, and they can feel the energy in the room. They can feel your commitment to them. Naviere Walkewicz 26:19 Well, I mean, I think what I heard through all that as well, is having those values aligned like you do, and then really communicating and then just championing the responsibility and the capabilities of your family members. It seems like, you know, you don't only just do that at work, but what I'm hearing is you've done this and the home life as well, and it's continued to just really evolve your family in such a beautiful way. So thank you for sharing that with us. Because I think that's really powerful and sometimes when our listeners feel like, “Gosh, I don't know how to make this decision,” I think if you start from that place of, “Are we aligned? Do we know what our core, you know, piece is,” go from there, it seems like you've been able to navigate that really well. Thank you for sharing that. Well, I want to ask you something that you're doing every day, because as leaders… And I'm not sure what your thoughts are on this, maybe you can share, but a lot of people will talk about how “I'm always learning. I'm continuing to learn, even as a leader, I'm still learning every day.” Can you share if that's how you feel, and if so, what are you doing on a daily basis to just be a better version of yourself as a leader, professional, etc.? Rebecca Gray 27:28 I think when you work out and you get a really good workout, and whatever that is, walking or, you know, at the gym or lifting, or whatever that is, biking or swimming — I think for me, that exercise and reading — those are probably the two things that I really work a lot on, and making sure that's just part of the day. You know, a lot of times we don't have to think too much about eating because we get hungry. But, you know, once you start exercising a lot, and you read a lot, and you have that quiet time — when you don't have it, you miss it, and so you almost get hungry for it. And so to create that consistency, so you can create that hunger. If you do skip it, or you want to skip it. Even when I travel for work, I do it. The girls know that if we're in a hotel, I'm going to go run down to the gym for a little bit. They'll come with me or not, but that's something I'm going to do regardless. And then the reading is really, really critical. Naviere Walkewicz 28:20 You know, one of the things we also love to ask, and maybe this is a better way to ask it, is, if you were to give advice to your daughters on what they could do today to be better leaders for tomorrow, what would that be? Rebecca Gray 28:32 I don't know if it's a goal to be a leader, but I think it's a goal to develop and be really well rounded, really solid, because you will default to being the leader. If you have that strength, you have that intellectual capacity, you have the humility. But I think having that humility is really, really critical, the well-roundedness, having different aspects to your life. You know, it can't all be just school and homework, and it needs to be whatever that is music or athletics or, you know, what have you in your faith community or something, you've got to have a well-rounded… because things come and go in your life. Naviere Walkewicz 29:12 Well, I love how you really put that together. Because I think the key thing was, you know, I don't know that they're necessarily aspiring to be a leader, but if they aspire to be well rounded and that kind of a wholesome approach, they will be the leader in the room. And I just, I just love that, because it just makes it so clear, right? I thought that was incredible. Well, we're coming up at our time, and I just have loved this conversation. Is there anything we didn't cover that you just like, this is a time, like, we want to make sure we didn't miss anything that you would like to share. Rebecca Gray 29:43 What you're really focused on is really powerful. And connecting the alumni, connecting the families, so that they understand what their child is going through at the Academy is really important. Realizing there's life out of the Academy, and you still need to serve, and you still need to contribute, and there's a way, there's a lot of lessons that we had at those four critical years of our life that can carry us. And I think you're really highlighting that and giving us the space to share some of that. So really appreciate that. Naviere Walkewicz 30:15 Well, I appreciate you saying that, and I just have to share with our listeners: You know, what I've really taken away from today's conversation is that leadership begins in small moments, a cup of coffee, a conversation, you know, choosing to listen, but it grows through courage, you know, the courage to step into uncertainty, which you've done, to serve where others maybe wouldn't, and to believe in your path, even if it looks unconventional. Rebecca Gray 30:38 It has, yeah, even if it looks unconventional, that's OK. It's OK too. Naviere Walkewicz 30:43 And I love that you talked about how it wasn't about the titles, but it was really about the experiences and kind of having that full picture of you and the confidence to bet on yourself. So this has just been a privilege to be with you on Long Blue Leadership I want to thank everyone for listening to this Long Blue Leadership episode. If you know others that are really growing in their leadership journeys and could benefit from this, please share it with them. We love having all of you listen to these wonderful lessons on leadership from our Air Force Academy graduates. So Rebecca, again, thank you so much. We will see you another time, but for now, I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. Thanks for joining us. KEYWORDS Rebecca Gray, leadership lessons, authentic leadership, Air Force Academy, military to corporate transition, women leaders, team connection, career development, executive leadership, Boingo Wireless, building confidence, personal growth, leadership podcast, work-life balance, empowering teams, transformational leadership, continuous learning, squadron commander, leadership journey, remote team management, military experience, family and career balance, purpose-driven leadership, leading by example, leadership advice, mentoring, professional development, inspirational stories, alumni connections, values-driven leadership. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
From aircraft maintenance officer to professional fitness champion to executive coach, Tanji Johnson Bridgeman '97 has exhibited leadership on many stages. SUMMARY In the premiere episode of Focus on Leadership, she joins host Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 to share how resilience, self-care and feedback transform challenges into growth — and why caring for yourself is key to leading with presence and impact. SHARE THIS PODCAST LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK TANJI'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS Lead with a Whole-Person Approach: Effective leadership requires nurturing mind, body, and spirit, not just focusing on one aspect. Reframe Failure as Feedback: View setbacks as events and learning opportunities, rather than personal flaws or endpoints. Consistency Over Perfection: Strive for regular, sustainable effort and give yourself grace rather than aiming for flawless execution. Self-Reflection Builds Authenticity: Regular reflection (e.g., journaling, meditation) helps clarify values and stay true to yourself as a leader. Executive Presence Matters: Project confidence through body language, eye contact, and purposeful communication to influence and inspire others. Take Inventory and Set Self-Care Rituals: Assess mental, physical, and emotional health, then develop small, habitual self-care practices to maintain energy and focus. Recognize and Address Burnout: Leaders must be attentive to signs of burnout in themselves and others, emphasizing rest, breaks, and boundaries. Normalize and Model Wellness in Leadership: Leaders should model healthy habits and make personal wellness a visible priority to support team well-being. Focus on Connection and Service: Shift focus away from self-doubt by being intentional about serving, connecting, and empowering others. Adapt and Accept Change: Growth requires adapting to new realities, accepting changes (including those related to age or circumstances), and updating strategies accordingly. CHAPTERS 0:00:06 - Introduction to the podcast and guest Tanji Johnson Bridgeman. 0:01:07 - Tanji shares her journey from the Air Force Academy to wellness and leadership. 0:04:13 - Discussing wellness strategies and advice for cadets and young leaders. 0:12:10 - Recognizing burnout, setting boundaries, and maintaining consistency in habits. 0:17:39 - Reframing failure as feedback with examples from Tanji's career. 0:27:58 - Exploring the concept of executive presence and practical ways to develop it. 0:38:07 - The value of authenticity and self-reflection in leadership. 0:44:21 - Creating sustainable self-care rituals and adopting healthy habits. 1:00:54 - Emphasizing wellness in leadership and the importance of leading by example. 1:02:18 - Final reflections and a summary of key takeaways from the episode. ABOUT TANJI BIO Tanji Johnson Bridgeman graduated from the United States Air Force Academy in 1997, where she distinguished herself by navigating the rigors of cadet life with both determination and initiative. As one of the first women to serve as Group Superintendent during Basic Cadet Training for the Class of 1999, she honed her leadership and public-speaking skills by addressing hundreds of incoming cadets nightly. Following her commissioning, she served on active duty in the U.S. Air Force — initially in the Academy's admissions office as a minority enrollment officer, then as an aircraft maintenance officer at Fairchild Air Force Base, Washington, where she led over 200 personnel across six specialties supporting KC-135 air-refueling operations. After four years of service, Tanji pivoted to a second career in fitness and wellness, becoming an 11-time professional champion in the International Federation of Bodybuilding & Fitness (IFBB) and competing for 18 years in 54 pro contests. She later leveraged her competitive success and military-honed leadership into executive-presence and lifestyle-coaching, founding the “Empower Your Inner Champion” brand and offering keynote speaking, coaching, and wellness solutions. CONNECT WITH TANJI LinkedIn Instagram: @OriginalTanjiJohnson CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT Guest, Tanji Johnson Bridgeman '97 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 If you love the Long Blue Leadership podcast, you'll want to discover Focus on Leadership, a Long Blue Leadership production of the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation. Here on Focus on Leadership, we move beyond the “why” and dive into the “how,” exploring the habits, mindsets and lessons that turn good leaders into great ones. In each episode, host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99, sits down with accomplished Air Force Academy graduates and other influential leaders to uncover their stories, their insights and real-world actions that drive excellence. Focus on Leadership: Offering impactful and actionable lessons for today's exceptional leaders. Without further ado, sit back and enjoy this premiere episode of Focus on Leadership. Naviere Walkewicz 0:58 Welcome to Focus on Leadership, where we take a close look at the practices that make strong leaders even stronger. I'm your host, Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. Today we're joined by Tanji Johnson Bridgeman, Class of '97, an Air Force Academy graduate whose journey has taken her from aircraft maintenance officer to professional fitness champion, American Gladiator known as “Stealth,” entrepreneur and executive coach. Tanji is here to teach us about leadership through the lens of health and wellness, how caring for yourself physically and mentally fuels your ability to establish presence and lead others with confidence. Tanji, welcome to Focus on Leadership. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 1:36 Thank you, Naviere. It is so good to be here. Naviere Walkewicz 1:40 Such an honor to see you. I mean, as a ‘99 graduate to have a ‘97 trainer here in the presence, I'm already feeling wonderful. And you know, it's been about 10 years since you've been at your academy. How are you feeling? You came back last evening. What are your thoughts? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 1:54 Wow, I was here nine years ago for my 20th reunion. I just feel so much gratitude. I mean, it's so surreal. Even last night, we went to work out. And you know, you're driving up the hill towards Vandenberg, and all these memories are coming back to me from the good times. But the biggest thing I'm feeling is pride, you know, pride and gratitude. Because, you know, we don't always reflect, but just being here, it forces you to reflect, like, this is where it all started. I mean, it really started with my upbringing, but the Air Force Academy, my experience here, laid the foundation for who I became, and I'm so grateful for that. Naviere Walkewicz 2:29 Well, let's go back to the fact that right off the bat, you got off the plane, you met me and we went to work out. So wellness, no joke, is right at the top of your foundation. So how did you get into this space? Let's kind of introduce that to our listeners, because I think it's important for them to really understand the depth of what wellness means. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 2:46 Well, the funny thing about it is I never would have imagined that I would be doing what I'm doing today, because I was a die-hard — I thought I'm going in the military, and I'm staying in for 20 years. So when I was here, you know, I was on the cadet Honor Guard and I cheered, and that's when I fell in love with lifting weights. So I got into competing, even as a lieutenant, and I just I fell in love, and I turned professional. And so there was these transitions where I had an opportunity to be a professional athlete, and I took it, right? And so I became a professional bodybuilder, fitness champion. And then next thing you know, I'm on NBC's American Gladiators. That was wild. And so I did that for a while, and then I became a trainer and a coach and a promoter and a judge, and did all the things bodybuilding. And then I retired in 2016, and that's around the time I met my husband, and so really that's when my real wellness journey began. Because prior to that, it was heavily around physical fitness, but wellness for me began when I transitioned and retired from competing. And really, I had to figure out what is my fitness life going to look like, because it's not going to be working out three times a day on a calorie-deficient diet. Naviere Walkewicz 3:57 Three times a day… Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 3:58 Right, none of that. I was like, I'm done. I'm done. But I really had to design the rest of my life and really figure out what that was going to look like. So I got into functional medicine, health coaching. I married a chiropractor, so we believe in holistic medicine, and that's where it started. Naviere Walkewicz 4:13 Excellent. And so this is not a traditional career path. So let's kind of go back to the cadet mindset. For example: How would you — knowing what you know now — maybe talk to yourself as a cadet, or actually, cadets that might be listening, of what they should be thinking about in this priority space of wellness, in leadership? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 4:30 Absolutely, I think that's a great question. The disadvantage for young leaders, whether they're cadets or lieutenants, is that they don't have the luxury of having a lot of life experience. And so building a foundation is important, and it takes mindfulness and just, “What should we be aware of?” So what I would want to impart on them is to adopt the philosophy of looking at wellness from a whole-person approach, because high performance is going to demand it. And so when I say whole person, wellness is multi-dimensional. So we want to look at the mindset, we want to look at the body and we want to look at the spirit, and being able to start from a place where you're going to go into all of those. Naviere Walkewicz 5:13 Well, as a cadet, there are so many hats they have to wear. No pun intended. They have to be on top of their game in the academic space. They have to be on top of the game in the military, and then also athletically. Can you talk about, or maybe share an example as a cadet, how you navigated that journey of wellness and what that looked like? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 5:32 Well, let's go back to — so I didn't get a chance to break down. So mind, body, spirit. Why is that important? Because in anything, any philosophies that we adopt, we have to really see where it's important. So when you think of what is an officer, what is a leader going to have to do with their mind, this is where they have to have clarity. It's going to help with focus, creativity to innovate new solutions. And so we need to be able to prioritize our mindset and our mental health. And then there's the body, right? So a lot of us are going to be going on deployments. We're going to work long hours. Our body is what's going to give us the fuel and energy and the stamina to get through a day. It's literally bringing our energy. And then you think about the spirit, and this one is really special, and it's probably the most neglected. So when you think about the spirit, this is where you're going to anchor in with your emotional health. What is your purpose? What is your “why?” You know, earlier today, I was having a great discussion with Gen. Marks, and he shared with me that one of his goals for the cadets is that when they graduate, you know, they're going to be committed to being leaders, but are they committed — like really committed — and bought in to knowing what their purpose is going to be? And I think that a big part of that is being able to explore their spirit in advance, so they can discover their identity and their strengths in advance and to be able to go off into the leadership and fully own it. And so an example that I would like to present: When I was coaching bodybuilders and female athletes, I remember I started a team. And now this is going to be a team of women that they have the common goal of competing. So they're trying to pursue physical excellence with how they transform their physiques. But what I did was I brought this team together, this sisterhood of women. So a couple of things that I wanted to see, I wanted sisterhood and support. I wanted them to have the commonality of the same goal, and I wanted them to be able to support each other, and I wanted to be able to support them by elevating their mindset. And so one of the things that I did that was really unique at the time, that a lot of other coaches and leaders weren't doing, — when somebody wanted to work with them, they just sign them up. But I would have a consultation. It was kind of more of an interview, because one of the questions I would ask is, “Naviere, why do you want to compete?” And then I'd give them examples, like, you know, “Is this a bucket list? Are you trying to improve your health? Is this for validation and attention? Is this because you're competitive? Because, if you're competitive, and you're telling me that you just started working out last year, maybe we need to wait a couple of years.” You see what I mean. So when you go back to the “why,” it keeps you in alignment to move forward, in alignment with your why, but a lot of people don't know what that is, and sometimes all it takes is asking the question. Naviere Walkewicz 8:17 So the question I'd love to ask you then, is going back to the cadet side, because I think talking to Gen. Marks and the purpose piece, you know, you actually, I think as a cadet, remember, you were on Honor Guard. You were also a cadet… I think you were the cheer captain of our cheerleading team. I feel that that is such a great testament to the fact that you have to figure out, you know, the purpose of, how do I do more and give more and still stay connected to my purpose of where you said in the beginning, “I was going to serve 20 years in the Air Force.” How do our cadets get that same level of interviewer coaching with someone without having that life experience yet? Like, what would you share with them now, from your learning experience? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 8:55 So when I think back to… OK, so when you look at wellness, and you think of mental wellness, physical wellness, emotional wellness, you know, I think what happens here at the Academy — and I remember starting this way — we prioritize physical fitness, right? I remember being in that fight-or-flight mode like, OK, if I can just show that I am, you know, prioritizing physical fitness, that strength is going to get me respect, and I could definitely feel the difference in how I was treated. The problem sometimes with prioritizing physical fitness… It's great because, you know, it can strengthen your mind. So if your body's feeling strong, your mindset is strong, but it becomes problematic when your body fails. So what happens when you fail? And I have plenty of stories and memories, my goodness, of being on Honor Guard, one that I remember distinctly is, you know, if you had me doing push-ups or pull-ups, oh, I was in a zone. I was impressing everybody. I was passing all the tests, but you put me in a formation where the short people are in the back, you throw a helmet, M1 Garand, and we have to go run 3 miles now, now I'm falling out and I'm getting exhausted. And you know, the body goes — the stress goes up, the blood sugar goes down. It's just physiology, right? And so what happens is, now mentally, my mind is becoming weak. So when the body fails, my mind is getting weak, Naviere Walkewicz 10:13 And you've been training your body right? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 10:14 Right, right. And so I look back, and I just, I remember those days in Honor Guard where I would feel doubt, like, “Am I going to make it do? I deserve to be here? Am I good enough?” I would feel discouraged, right? And I would go back to my room and then something happened. So after about two weeks of suffering through this pain and this big challenge, I remember thinking, “Gosh, every time they beat me down physically, I feel so weak mentally. But I was in my room and I remember having anxiety for the next day, like, “Oh, I'm going out there again.” And for some reason that meme, you know, with the Asian guy that says, “But did you die?” Right? That's always in my head, and I remember saying that to myself, like, “It was hard. Today was hard, but did I die?” No. And actually, after two weeks, I'm like, “It's actually getting easier,” like, because I'm getting more fit, right? I'm able to do the push-ups. I'm running further. And I remember that was the mindset shift where I realized, “OK, now, tomorrow, when I go out to practice, I'm not going to be as afraid, because I've already decided that I can do hard things.” And so now, when I was enduring the practice, right, and the leadership of my Honor Guard cadre, I was prepared with that mental strength, right? And so that's what we need. We need to be able to train so that when our body fails, our mind prevails, right? Naviere Walkewicz 11:39 Love that — those three facets of wellness, and that's a really strong way to explain it. And so you gave a couple examples about when the body fails, so when we think about how we're wired, and I think many of us are this way, as cadets, as graduates, as those who really want to succeed in life, right? Thinking about resilience, how do we balance? Or maybe balance isn't the right word, but how do we make sure we're very mindful of that line between healthy discipline and then harmful overdrive. How do you navigate that? Maybe, what would you share with some of our listeners? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 12:11 Well, you were asking like, how do we recognize when it's happened? You know, the good news is, your body will leave clues. You will have emotional clues, you will have physical clues, you're going to have behavioral clues. Your body will leave clues. So the first thing is, I think that if we can be willing to evolve — you know, look at what culture are we in now, like you and I, we come from a culture where the philosophy was grit at any cost. Push, push, push, push, and drive, drive, drive. You know, I think about, as an athlete, you know, especially if you're motivated. You're thinking, when I was training my body, I remember thinking, “I want to get these results, and so I'm going to do what it takes. So every day I'm doing the lifting, I'm eating the food, and I'm going to train every day.” And I remember on that seventh day, you know, I had done all the things, I took the supplements, I got all the sleep, and I went in to train, and my body was exhausted. And it's because I was physically burning out, and my body needed the rest. And then it really transferred into how I would choreograph my training and so with routine. So I was a fitness competitor. I did these fitness, crazy fitness routines where I'm doing push-ups and squats and gymnastics and flying around, right? And it's two minutes long. So think of doing like a crazy CrossFit routine for two minutes straight without stopping, and smiling. And so I remember being strategic, right? And how I would lay out those practices athletically, where I would do a portion, 30 seconds — I would train 30 seconds at a time, and then the next day I would do the next 30 seconds, a week later I would go for about a minute. But the part I want you to know is, right before the competition, I would decrease that training load. I would actually do less, because the year that I trained full out, all the way up into the competition, I didn't do well on stage because my body was exhausted. So again, our body is going to leave us clues, and we have to be willing to evolve, to say that self-care — it's not selfish, but it's strategic. And so we need to pay attention to those signs, because we're going to have a choice to either pivot and be intentional and strategic with taking care of ourselves, or we're going to stay stuck in this old-school thinking that's not going to serve us. Naviere Walkewicz 14:38 So if it's not the body telling you — because we talk about how wellness is more than just physical — how do you recognize signs on the spiritual side, on your emotional side, that you might be in this harmful space of it's too much give, give, give, and not enough fill, fill, fill. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 14:55 I think that's a great question. So here's some telltale… So going back to physical, you know, like the examples I gave, you're going to feel exhausted, you're going to have muscle tension, you might even start to have stomach issues. Those are all great physical signs that you're reaching burnout. Now, when you think of mentally, if you notice emotionally and mentally, that you start getting irritable and you've become more impatient and you're having a harder time making decisions, those are also great clues that mentally, you're starting to get burnt out. And then when you think of behaviorally, you know, let's say you had a great morning routine, and now all of a sudden, you find yourself in this season where you've abandoned that, or you have deadlines that you're usually very protective, and you can get things done, but now you're starting to procrastinate, and you're thinking like, “Who am I right now? I'm procrastinating. I've abandoned my wellness routine. I'm not even… I don't even have a morning routine.” That's when you should really step back. And I think one of the practical tools that everyone can do is check in with themselves on a regular basis. So I'm being very transparent. I check in with myself daily. So let's say I do three back-to-back hours of Zoom calls: Maybe ones with an executive coaching clients. Maybe another one is a team Zoom, where I'm training a group of folks, and then another team meeting. After that three hours, I will stop, and I'll check in with myself, and I'll take a deep breath and say, “How am I feeling? Do I feel like getting right back on a call? No, my brain is fried right now.” And then I'll pivot and I'll go take a 10-minute walk around break. And that's just one of my strategies. Naviere Walkewicz 16:30 So it does… A check in doesn't have to be this grand “I take time off and I spend a week.” It literally could just be a few minutes of [breathes deeply] and check in with yourself, because I think sometimes time is a challenge as well, right? We talk about, how do we prioritize all these things and we're within this 24-hour period. How do we make sure that the time piece is something that we can also utilize to take care of ourselves, and so when you said it doesn't have to take a lot of time to check in. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 16:58 And think about it. So we just talked about how to check in with yourself daily. What about like in your career? You know, I was helping physique athletes with poise mastery, basically teaching posing to athletes for over 15 years, and towards the end of that career, what I started to notice when I would mentally check in with myself, is I would notice that as I was driving to the office to go work with another client, I just did not feel as energized. I didn't feel as passionate. My motivation was going down, and this was a sign for me that I was getting burnt out from this specific way of serving, and it was my first clue that it was time to pivot and to look at something else. Naviere Walkewicz 17:38 That's really interesting, because when you think about when you're making big decisions, whether in career, whether in leadership or just, you know… The fact that you have these signs help you make those decisions, but I also wonder if it helps you at times think about part of the growth is maybe not totally pivoting, but it's recognizing that I'm supposed to go through this period of hardship. So what I'm kind of alluding to right now, is failure, right? So failure, as we go through some of our experiences are inevitable, right? How do we make sure we're using failure in a way to grow, as opposed to the easy button of, well, I failed, so I'm pivoting. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 18:18 OK, so that would be like a reaction. You're reacting to what happened, and you think what you need to do is flee from it. So you have to be able to discern, “Am I pivoting because I'm afraid, or because I feel like I'm not good enough, or because my purpose and my spirit is telling me that my work is done here, and I'm looking for innovation.” I'm looking for something new. I'm looking to impact new people. So going back to failure — like public speaking, it's one of the top two fears, right? Naviere Walkewicz 18:52 What's the other? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 18:53 Oh, public speaking, flying, swimming [laughs]. No, I'm just kidding. Only if you grow up like me. But going back to failure, I think that people fear failure a lot because they make the mistake of connecting it to their identity instead of realizing failure is an event. It's not your identity. And so how many times do we do something, and maybe it's a competition, or it's an event or an application, and you fail. You don't get the desired result. It's an event. So what we need to do is reframe failure as feedback. That's it. So I have a great example. When I think about a great example of someone who was able to show in person, in reality, that when they failed, it did not disrupt their identity at all. So I don't know if there's any boxing fans out there, Naviere Walkewicz 19:46 Oh, we have some, I'm sure. Yeah. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 19:47 The Canelo and Crawford fight, it was a couple weeks ago. Did you see that? Naviere Walkewicz 19:50 I didn't, but I did hear about this. Actually, honestly, I fell asleep. I planned to watch it. My husband watched it, but I fell asleep. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 19:57 Oh, they went all the rounds, right? It was a great fight. Really, really great. You saw two physical specimens, you know, at the top of their game. They were both undefeated. I believe Canelo was favored to win, but he didn't. He lost the belt, right? And so Crawford wins. And so I'm always very intrigued with how people respond to failure when it's public, right? And so Crawford got to make his speech, and then when Canelo made his speech, you know, one of the first things they ask is, “OK, so you didn't get the result you were hoping for. You didn't win this bout. How are you feeling?” And he gave an answer that I totally didn't expect. He said, “I feel great.” Naviere Walkewicz 20:39 Just like that? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 20:40 Yes. He was like, “I feel great.” He was like, “It was a great fight,” you know. He affirmed Crawford, you know, edified him. Talked about how great he was, you know, but he maintained his identity, and you could feel that in his spirit. He said, “I feel great. I came out here. I did a great job. I did what I was supposed to do. Obviously, there's room for feedback, to learn. You know, I didn't get the result I wanted. So whether it was endurance or I wasn't strategic enough, or I didn't prioritize my offense, there's feedback there.” He's going to learn from that. But he basically had such a great attitude. And he ended it by saying, you know, “I feel great and it was great time.” And I remember thinking like, “Wow, now there's an example of someone who did not own the failure and make it a part of his identity. It was just an event.” And his legacy will still be restored, right? And to be honest with you, it made me think about my own career. Naviere Walkewicz 21:31 Yes, so did you, have you experienced anything like that in your career? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 21:34 Have I experienced failure? Over and over again. Naviere Walkewicz 21:39 And how did you respond in your, you know, the wellness side of it, when you think about, you know, what you're trying to do, your purpose. How did you use that? Did you use it as feedback? Or what did that look like for you. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 21:50 So let's say in sports, if you don't win, then that event is deemed as a failure, right? And so if you think about it, I did 54, I've done 54 professional bodybuilding, fitness competitions. Naviere Walkewicz 22:04 Wow. OK, what year did you start, just so we can get some perspective? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 22:06 I started in 2001 and retired in 2016, so about 17 years. And I won 11 of them. So that means out of, and that's a lot, actually. So out of that many, that means I lost all the others. And there's one particular competition that will always be dear to my heart, and it was the Arnold Classic. Yes, the Arnold Schwarzenegger. You know, he has this gigantic competition every year. And midway through my career, I started I got in the top five. So I would get fourth, and then the next year I'd get third, and then I'd go down to fourth, and then I'd get second, right? I think I got second maybe four years in a row. So basically, in my 10th year of competing, I finally won the darn thing. So Arnold comes from across the stage, and I'm already crying, and, you know, with his accent, “Why are you so emotional?” And there's a picture of me taking the microphone from him because I had something to say, and in that moment, because it was a special moment, I realized, yes, all of these years of failure, every time I competed, I missed the mark. I missed the mark. I missed the mark. But what did I do? I took that feedback and I went back and said, “What do I need to do differently? What does this mean? How can I improve my physique? How did I need better stamina in my routine?” And every year, I was coming back better and better and better. But guess what? So were the other athletes, right? And so when I won in that 10th year, I actually would not have had it any other way, because I don't think it would have meant as much to me. Because what was happening, I may have won the Arnold Classic on that day, but I was becoming a champion throughout that whole 10-year process. You see what I did there. So it's not your identity, it's an event. So if you look at it and reframe it as feedback, then you can leverage that and use it as an opportunity to win. Naviere Walkewicz 24:00 So failure, and we're going to say synonym: feedback. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 24:03 Exactly. Naviere Walkewicz 24:04 I like that. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 24:05 I mean, and I'll give you another example. So you know, I did my first TEDx Talk last year, and I was a part of this coaching group. And here's the thing: As leaders, we get to create and build culture. And I think it's very important for leaders to create a culture where they normalize failure and they teach their teams that it's meant to be for feedback. So encourage courage, and then help them leverage the failure or the mistake as lessons learned so that they can grow and move forward. So I'm in this coaching group, and they told us, “We're going to have you send out probably an average of 80 applications. Now we're going to guide you and tell you what to do, but every application is different, because the event promoters are different. So we can't tell you exactly what they all want, but you're going to find out when you apply.” So I remember applying, I think, to UCLA Berkeley or something, and I applied to do a TEDx Talk, and midway through my application, they asked me, what was my scientific evidence and proof of my theory and my great idea? And I didn't have one at the time. And I remember thinking, “I'm going to go ahead and finish this application, but yay, I just got some feedback that I need to include scientific data in my pitch and in presenting my idea.” And it was shortly after, I think I did five more applications and I got selected. And so now I have been so trained to see failure as an opportunity to grow and excel, that when I am afraid of something, I reframe it immediately, and then I actually look forward to it, like, “Oh my gosh, I can't wait to get out there and do this thing, because I'm going to get this feedback, and that's going to make me better.” Naviere Walkewicz 25:39 Well, I think that's really wonderful in the way that you frame that. Because, you know, in the military, and I was actually just at a conference recently, and they were talking about how failure should be a part of training. Failure is actually the most important part of the training, because when it comes time to actual execution, operationally, that's when we can't fail, right? So, like, you want that feedback through all the training iterations, and so, you know, the way you just, you know, laid that out for us, it was in a sense that, you know, you had this framework, “I'm getting feedback, I'm training, I'm training, I'm training.” And then, you know, of course, when you took the champion spot… Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 26:10 And I love… I think back to when I physically learned to appreciate failure was through weight training. And I know you've done it too, because can you go back and remember the first time you know, as a bodybuilder, when you lift weights, you're trying to grow your muscle, and to grow the muscle, the muscle fibers have to tear, and so there has to be a certain level of intensity and hardship in doing that. So if you're one of those people that you go to the gym and you're doing, you know, 15 easy reps, four sets, you never break a sweat, you're toning and you're getting some movement in, but you're not tearing your muscle fibers, and that's probably why they're not growing. So when I worked with the trainer and we were doing overhead military presses, and I physically felt like I was done at about 12 reps, but he was spotting me, so he just kept force repping me through six to eight more. I mean, until my arms were done, and I put my arms down, and they started to float up in the air. And he looks at me, because I'm looking at him, like, “Dude, what are you doing?” I'm like, “Wow, are you trying to hurt me?” And he just said, “No, but I do need you to learn that you're going to have to fail in order to grow and win.” And I was like… So then after that, we're going in the gym, like, “All right, Naviere, we're going to hit failure today. Oh yeah, we're going to learn how to fail.” “Did you fail at the gym last night?” “Yes, I did.” So in the bodybuilding community, it's celebrated. You know, it's a concept where that's we're trying to work through failure because we know it's on the other side. Naviere Walkewicz 27:34 Yes. Oh, I love that. That's fantastic. Well, and then you said you retired in 2016, so that was probably quite a transition in the fact where you had to… You probably have been doing all the wellness check-ins. “Where am I at? What am I thinking?” How did you make that transition into the executive presence space? Because it doesn't seem like it's a direct correlation from someone's body building to executive presence. Or maybe it is. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 27:58 So, in in body building, I developed a niche. So I started off as a trainer, and then very quickly, probably because of some of my Honor Guard background, I mean, we did precision drill, and I just realized that I can… I learned things really easily, and then I can teach it. I can see something and break it down in detail and teach it. And so I got really good at doing that for the athletes proposing to where I was able to build a whole career and get paid really well through poise mastery. Now what I think? You know when I think back to all the things we had to do as a cadet, from standing at attention, keeping your chest up, you know, your chin in projecting we were all we were already starting to work on our executive presence, but we just didn't know realize it, right? And so in the real world outside of the military, where people are not building habits of standing up straight on a regular basis, they don't. I go into board rooms. I go to events where I see people get on stage. They're looking down, they're fidgeting, they're not making eye contact, they're speaking too softly. And so executive presence is the ability to project confidence in how you show up and the way that you communicate and how you get people to experience you, because, unfortunately, we live in a society where perception shapes opportunity. So as a leader, if you're not commanding that authority right off the bat, you may you may be missing the mark on being able to influence, and that's what leadership is. And so I was basically elevating all of these athletes to just present the best version of themselves, and in leadership, that's what we want, too. We all have strengths, we all have learned skills. We all have something to offer. But if we're not projecting and presenting our inner power externally, a lot of times we miss that mark, and I want to connect the dots. And that's kind of what hit me when I thought about moving into the executive space, is, you know, I can… sure I can teach you how to stand in front of a red carpet and some power poses, but it goes beyond that. It's how we communicate. It's our body language. And so there's, there's a lot of skills that can be learned. Naviere Walkewicz 30:09 Well, let's start with maybe just sharing a couple. How can our leaders, our listeners start to display a stronger executive presence every day? What's the first couple things you might have them start thinking about? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 30:22 OK, so physically, I would start like, let's say with body language is eye contact. So my concern with this, the generation that we have now is they're dealing with a disadvantage that we didn't have to deal with. You know, when we were in school together 20 years ago, we were connecting all the time. It wasn't even a challenge. We were always together in person, building relationships, connecting, communicating. And now we're in a digital world where our attention is, is we're fighting for it, right? And so a lot of times I will watch people, and I realize whether they're going out to dinner and they are not maintaining eye contact because they're distracted, and they really haven't been, they haven't been trained to really be present. So for example, when you're speaking with someone and you're making eye contact with them. They feel seen,, you know? And so that's, that's one of the strongest ones. OK, Naviere Walkewicz 31:16 OK. I like that a lot. That's perfect. So as they're starting to think about the first thing is being present and making eye contact, from a — that's a physical standpoint. Maybe what, from a mental or emotional standpoint should be they be doing from a starting point for executive presence? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 31:33 OK, so being intentional. So when you think about your leader, and let's say you're going to speak in front of the Cadet Wing, or you're going to start managing a team, or you're going to a networking event as an executive, and you're trying to pick up a few sponsors. Before you even go to the event, you can be intentional about who am I meeting with, what is my goal and how do I want them to feel. So when you think about networking, a lot of times, there's people, I have a client. You know, she hired me because she has a little bit of social anxiety. She's younger, and so she's on a board where everybody's older than her. So there's a little bit of that mental insecurity of, you know, “Am I good enough? Do I have what it takes? Are these people going to respect me,” right? And so she's coming into the situation already insecure, and she's thinking about herself. “How am I going to be perceived?” instead of going there, focused on connection, right? So if she was to go there and say, “This is who's going to be there. This is how I want to make them feel. So I'm actually going to be very intentional about asking questions that's going to connect with them, that's going to make them feel a certain way. If I want this audience to feel respected, what do I what do I ask them, and what do I say? What do I highlight? If I want them to feel accepted and warm. What can I say?” And so it just gives you more power to show up, be present and be intentional, and you'll feel more confident, because now you've taken the focus away from yourself to how you're going to serve others. Naviere Walkewicz 33:02 That is excellent, and that leads us into a bit of the mental piece of it, right, the mindset. So earlier, you talked about how you had a mindset shift when you were getting beat down in Honor Guard, you know, you're in the back, you know, because of the vertical challenge, and you're running, you know, and you're hanging in there, and you got better. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 33:19 Well, it makes me think about when I was auditioning for American Gladiators. And again, I'm going to go back to this executive presence and where I use my mental training to serve me, so when I was auditioning, so if you guys don't remember, the old show was, there was no water, right? It was just everything was over big, you know, pillows and just a flat area, OK? So when I went in there to audition, I remember there was for the sake of diversity, there was like, two of everything. There was two Black women there, there was two redheads, two blondes. And I remember looking around thinking, “OK, both of us are not getting this job.” And so the very last part of the audition, after many rounds, is you had to go in front of the executive committee, and you had a one-minute pitch. You could say whatever you want, but they're all sitting there with their arms crossed, and you just get to go in there. And I remember thinking, “OK, I am shorter than her, but I'm more muscular. And, you know, she's been on tons of fitness magazines. She's, you know, super beautiful, more popular. I want to go in there, and I want to be intentional about showing them that what I'm going to present is the right fit for the show.” And so I walked in there and I called the room to attention. I used my Honor Guard diaphragm, and I called the room to attention. And then I went in and I started telling them about how during basic training, I was like one of the pugil stick champions. And they thought that was great, because we had an event for that, right? And so, you know, going back to that mental training, you know, part of it is just that intention of being prepared, you know, what is it that you want to achieve? What are you going to do? And then you strategize and have a game plan for how you're going to go in there. Now, another example: So once I got… I got the job, yay, right? And then we go to Sony studios, and I look at the set, and I realized that half of the set is over water. So half of the events, the joust, Hang Tough, the rock climbing, it's all over water. And you guys remember when I talked about a little bit not, not being a big swimmer. And so this was fascinating to me, but I didn't want anyone to know, because I didn't want to lose my job, right? And so here's where I tapped into my mental and mindset training. So as an athlete, I did this a lot: To preserve my physical body, because of all the gymnastics and routines, I didn't overtrain, because there's damage when you over train. But I would visualize myself going through my movements, and I would picture myself being successful, so I didn't visualize myself messing up or anything like that. And there was, there would be repetition after repetition after repetition. And so what I did to face that fear of having to do events that were going to land me in the water is I had to use logic, you know, so I literally would say, “OK, if I end up being in the joust and I get hit, I'm going to fall in the water. And this is how far away the edge of the pool is. I'm going to take a deep breath. I'm going to I know how to do the stroke, so I'm going to get over there.” But I had to visualize myself falling and then I use logic to just keep myself calm. So I visualize myself hitting the water and being calm, because I would prepare myself to be calm. If I wasn't, I probably would have panicked and drowned. And so I think back to that, and I never told anybody, but I was ready, and I was not afraid, because I had already went through the mental training to prepare myself to do something that I was uncomfortable doing. Naviere Walkewicz 36:50 And so did you fall into the water, and did it play out the way that you had mentally prepared it for? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 36:56 So here's what's crazy. I'm probably not even supposed to talk about this, but the way they film some of these shows, they're not in sequence. So imagine that I'm filming a water event from Episode 1, 3 and 8. OK, well, for me, like, my third day there, I actually tore my ACL falling off the pyramid. And so, you know, those viewers at home didn't know that. So actually the answer is no, I actually didn't even get put into a water event because I got injured beforehand. But I was ready mentally. Regardless, I was actually disappointed, because I was ready to see that courage come to the surface. Naviere Walkewicz 37:32 Oh my goodness! These are all such wonderful examples of how you have really almost embodied wellness throughout your decisions as a leader throughout your career. I'm really curious, as you think about how you've been true to yourself in this journey, because there's an authenticity to you that only Tanji could bring. And so I'm wondering, how do you know who is your authentic self as a leader, and how have you continued to really show up for yourself in that way? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 38:07 I think this is very important. And you know, my heart goes out to the young leaders, because, again, like I was saying earlier, they haven't had the experience yet. And I even remember when my sister, my younger sister, she was struggling to figure out what she wanted to do for a living, and she was a college graduate, and she still didn't know. And a lot of it is because when you don't have that personal life experience, you know — experience is a teacher. It tells you, it leaves clues. So when you don't have that, you kind of feel like you're just shooting from the hip trying to figure it out. And so what I think is important is to start the art of self-reflection early. I will never forget I was on a TDY during the Kosovo crisis. I was at RF Mildenhall, and I was a maintainer, and I remember having, you know, a lot, I think, over 200 troops over there, but it was kind of a lonely season for me, because all my peers were pilots, and they were all flying, and, you know, I didn't have anyone to hang out with, and I wasn't home, you know, I was, I was TDY. So I remember just spending my time. I would go to the gym, and then I would go for walks, and I did a lot of journaling. And I don't know why I had the foresight been but I would, you know, ask myself questions like, “Who am I? What matters to me? What values are important to me?” And the process of doing that really helped me solidify my identity. And so, for example, I knew that I thought self-love was really important to me. It was a value that I care about. So when I see people that are self-deprecating, they're talking poorly about themselves. They don't believe in themselves. This hurts my soul. It's a part of who I am, right? And so I've always believed in self-acceptance, you know. For me, as a Christian, you know, I want to celebrate how God made me and have that level of self-love. So when I was a cheerleader at the Air Force Academy, I remember I didn't have self-esteem issues with my body image. Nothing about it, right? And then I go off an become a professional fitness competitor — now I'm competing. And in that industry, breast implants were very prevalent and they were starting to get really popular. And it made me really insecure. So if you think about it, I did not change, but my environment changed. So as leaders, how often are we going to be in situations where your environment is constantly changing and maybe you feel that pressure to conform? And so in my environment, most of the women around me, as a means to an end, were getting breast implants to change how their body looked, to look more feminine, to be more accepted. And there's nothing wrong if that's what you want to do, but I remember feeling like, “Now I'm insecure about my body. Now I don't feel as pretty. Now I don't feel as feminine.” And I remember that being problematic because it wasn't in alignment with my identity. And so, again, knowing what my values are, I thought, “Well, I could go get the operation like a lot of people do. But this is problematic because I don't want to lead a life — and how am I going to go back and coach other women and lead a team if now what I'm saying is whatever is true to who you are and your identity, it's OK to abandon that.” And so, for me, that's why I chose not to have that surgery. And I started this journey — it took about two years — of being able to redefine beauty, redefine femininity. And this is kind of where all the different tools came in. So I started looking in the mirror and I would do positive — because it's self-taught. Instead of looking at my chest and saying, “You're flat and it looks masculine and you're not feminine enough,” I would say, “Girl, do you know what this chest cand do? We can do crazy push-ups.” And I would say, “Wow, you're strong.” And over time, I changed how I felt about myself. And it was a very proud moment for me, because I look back, and that's why identity is so important. You need to take the time to reflect on who you are, what do you stand for, so that when those moments of pressure come, you're going to be able to make a decision to stay in alignment with who you are. Naviere Walkewicz 42:15 So you said — and maybe it's by grace — that you hadn't really planned. You just started journaling in those moments of quiet when you're feeling a little bit alone as TDY. Is that the best way, you think, to spend some time figuring out who you are? What's important to you? Or are there other tools you might suggest? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 42:33 There's going to be multiple tools. You know, for me, I like to write. You know, for some people, they will pray and they will just ask a higher being to guide me and to make me more aware, make things known to me. For other people, they're going to meditate. You know, I liked journaling. I also have the strength of curiosity. And so, because of that, I was always not only asking myself a lot of questions, but I was asking other people too. And so, for example, if people don't have that strength of curiosity and they're thinking, “I really don't reflect very much and I'm never asking myself those questions,” you know, you don't necessarily have to journal it, but you can just take time to spend in reflection. But some of the work that I do, I take people through identity activation drills where I will list several, several different lists of values, different lists of strengths, and they'll think about each one and they'll really start to think about, “Let me think of a time where I experienced one of these strengths.” Or, “What's the last thing somebody celebrated?” Or, “What do people tend to tell me or complement?” And then all of a sudden they realize,” I didn't realize this was a strength, but, wow, this is a strength!” And now they can own it because they're aware of it. Naviere Walkewicz 43:48 That is outstanding. So, you've really taken wellness into practice with everything you've done. You started to elevate others around you to have this ability to discover themselves and then have this executive presence. You know, if all the things you are doing, it takes energy. How are you… Because I know you talked about not overtraining and making sure you preserve that and doing mental reps. Is that really the special sauce? The mental training so that you don't find yourself in a period where you just lack energy and burnout? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 44:22 So basically, how do you sustain energy when it comes to wellness? So again, you go back to mind, body and spirit. So what I would do is I would — and this is for each person… You just break it down. You ask yourself, “OK, mind. How am I going to keep energy in my mind? What can I do?” One of the easiest things to do is to just take a short break. So when I gave you the example of how my mind was working at full capacity for three hours straight. So when I was done, it needed a bit of a reset. And so what I do every day when I'm at home is I go outside and I visit with my chickens. So I have chickens and I have four cats. And so I will take a mental break and it's a habit for me now. I get up from the table and I will walk, because it decreases your stress hormones when you have movement, and I will give my mind a break and I will allow myself to observe. That's my favorite thing: I call it mindful walks where I just go outside and I will just take a moment. You know when they say, “Just stop and smell the roses.” No, seriously. Naviere Walkewicz 45:28 Or the chickens… Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 45:29 So the chickens make me smile because when I come out there I typically have treats. But they just come… They bumrush me. So I go out there and they make me smile and then something wonderous will happen, like I might see my cat just sprinting up a tree and I'm just thinking, “Wow, what a hunter,” right? They're so fast. Then, you know, I see my dahlias that have been sprouting and I just can't believe how fast they grow overnight with sunshine. And that's just 10 minutes. And then I come back in and I instantly feel recharged and I sit down and I'm restored and ready to focus again on the next task. So, mentally, I like taking breaks. When it comes to physically, just getting into movement. And, you know, a lot of times people will think, “Well, I don't have time to go to the gym for an hour.” Naviere Walkewicz 46:16 Or, “I'm tired already. How am I supposed to go workout?” Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 46:17 Exactly. So when I think about the body, you know, there's four pillars that you can focus on. And if you feel like you're not mastering any of them, just start with one. So food is one. Food is fuel. And then we have hydration. You know, my husband's mom actually went to the hospital because she works all the time and she had been out in the sun and we discovered that she was dehydrated and it put her in the hospital. So sometimes when we're going after the mission and we're doing one task after — you know, when people forget to drink water and eight hours later you're dealing with brain fog, you're irritable, you don't understand what's happening. But you didn't fuel the body. So hydration, movement, food and sleep. So those are like the four pillars. And I would just ask yourself — so if I'm working with a health coaching client, I would say, “Out of those four areas, where do you want to start?” They'll say, “Sleep. My sleep health is terrible.” And then I can take it step further and say, “Have you heard of a thing called sleep hygiene?” They're like, “What's that?” “Sleep hygiene is literally, what is your sleep ritual? What are your habits to prepare for bedtime? Do you have a consistent bedtime? Do you decrease blue-light therapy? Do you put the phone away? Do you take a bubble bath to relax?” When you think about your environment and what your habits are, when some people tell you, “I do not feel rested,” we look at your sleep hygiene. What's going on? There's things that we can fix, and that's just with sleep. And so I ask people, “Where would you like to start? And you just pick one habit that you can commit to over time and once you've mastered that, you start to habit-stack.” Naviere Walkewicz 47:57 Amazing. So that was — you talked about, from the energy, when it comes to your physical and then your mental. What about from the spiritual side? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 48:07 OK, so, this is — and I think this is important because, again, I talk about the spirit is the anchor for your emotional health, right? And so you want to think about activities that's going to feed your soul and your spirit. Now I'll give an example. If you're going through, let's say, a season where you're irritable and you're feeling ungrateful and you're pessimistic and everything just seems bad. We're actually kind of in a season like that right now sometimes. One of the things I do — so this is just an exercise, but it's a gratitude process. Write down 100 things you are grateful for. I did this for three months straight. It took me about 20 minutes, but I got really good at it. And when you have to list out 100 things, you know, at first you might do 20 and you're like, “All right. Where do I go from here?” But you're forced to dig deeper. And when I came up with my 100 list, first of all, I would think about my husband. And 10 things, I would get specific. Grateful for his provision. Grateful for support, for his sense of humor, for his hot, fit body. You know, I'd just go down all the things, right? And then every day I'm grateful for my home, for my physical abilities, for my flexibility, my mobility. You're just in a different frame of mind. And anyone can get there if they choose to do an exercise or a prompt that shifts them from their current circumstance. And that's why I'm most passionate about empowering people that they truly can design their life utilizing these tools. Naviere Walkewicz 49:47 Can you share an example when you've seen someone that was maybe in that season… Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 49:53 What kind of season? Negative season? Naviere Walkewicz 49:54 In the negative season. And how going through some of these, kind of, wellness check-ins or activities — what did it allow them to do? What did it open on the other side that changed for them with your help? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 50:06 OK, so, one example would be we have social media; we have digital devices. And we can easily… Everything is about habit management and that's one thing I would tell people to do, you know? If you were to take inventory, look at how you live your life every day, and if you were to put every single action you did down as a habit — brush your teeth is a habit. Stop by and grab the Diet Coke is a habit. Sit down on the couch to watch TV is a habit. If you put it in a category of what serves you; what doesn't serve you. You know, one of the most… Naviere Walkewicz 50:41 So first list out all your habits and categorize them? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 50:43 Right, right. So then you would recognize, “Oh my goodness. I have a habit of scrolling Instagram. Or social media.” And then you ask yourself how much time do you spend doing that. “Oh, I get caught up in a loophole of 30 to 45 minutes. And then what are you consuming? You know, so let's say the things that have happened in the last couple of weeks, you know, say something negative happens in society that's getting a lot of public attention and you're just ina rabbit hole reading about that incident over and over and over again. And when you're done scrolling, the question is, “How do you feel after that activity?” And most people would say, “I feel tense. I feel angry. I feel disappointed.” They list off all of these negative feelings. And so what I do is I help them realize, “OK, so does that serve you? Because you were in this negative health space, when you went to dinner with your family or when you went into this next assignment, how did you show up? How did you perform?” And then they realize, “Oh, wow. Not very well. I treated my wife like crap because I was irritable.” And so then you go back again. Your experience… We leave clues with how we're living our lives. So then you go back and you realize, “That is a habit I need to change. And I just need to make a decision, and I have to have a compelling reason. So let's say you want to work on your marriage and you want to show up better for your spouse, but you're always showing up with negative energy because of this habit that you do right when you get home, then you can — so we just come up with a plan, and it's different for each person. You know, “What could you do that would be more positive?” “I could come home play a game with my kid, because, you know, my kid is amazing, and it makes me smile and laugh,” and you're in a good mood, you know? And this is why, if I am stressed during the day, I already know if I get exposed to my chickens, my cat, or just go outside, I'm so mesmerized by the beauty of nature. All of those things I know fill me in a positive way. And so I am very intentional and aware of when I need to shift, and I know what my go-to are. So when I work with clients, I help them discover what their database of go-tos are going to be. The first part is just helping them become more aware of when it's happening so they can decide to shift. Naviere Walkewicz 52:57 Right. So that awareness is really critical, but then the next step is probably the discipline and actually doing something about it? Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 53:07 Right. Naviere Walkewicz 53:08 How can you take the lessons that you've had in bodybuilding, and then, you know, in all of your journey to help those now move from the awareness bucket to actually… Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 53:17 To making it happen? So I think that the first goal should be consistency, not perfection, right? And I learned this the hard way as a bodybuilder, because in the beginning of my career, I hated dieting. I've always hated dieting. I love food. Naviere Walkewicz 53:31 You and I are kindred spirits in that way. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 53:32 I don't mind being, yes, I don't mind being on a structured, you know, meal plan. But, you know, being on a strict diet can be hard, so anytime you set a goal to do something that is difficult, you know, the first thing that I tried to do was be perfect. So I would hire a coach, and my nutritionist would tell me, “This is what you're supposed to eat for meal one, two, three, four, exactly down to the macros. And maybe I would do great for three days. And then, you know, I would fail. I would cheat or have something I'm not supposed to have, and I would feel so bad again. Going back to a lot of these principles are coming back up. I was letting the failure identified me as a bad person, so now I'm feeling shame, and that's making me feel discouraged. And I kept doing this thing, like, “Well, I blew it, so I'm just gonna take the whole day off.” Like, how dumb is that, right? Like, there's four more meals you can eat and you're just gonna sabotage the rest of the four. So think about if I did that every day. So if you messed up every day and you sabotage three out of the six meals every single day, where would you be at the end of the week? Naviere Walkewicz 54:31 Worse off. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 54:32 Fat. [Laughs] No, I'm just kidding, Naviere Walkewicz 54:33 Worse off than you were when you started. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 54:35 You would be, with no results. Naviere Walkewicz 54:37 No more Oreos in the house so you wouldn't have to worry about eating them anymore. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 54:40 So that's when I realized, “Oh, I'm getting caught up with perfection, and that's causing me to sabotage.” So then I changed. I said 80/20, 90/10, I just want to be consistent. And so when you fail, you know you give yourself that grace, right? And so I always like to say courage, grit and grace. You have to have the courage to do something uncomfortable, the grit to endure and then the grace to embrace when you've messed up and then move forward. And so the first thing I would do with wellness habits is, you know, you build one habit at a time, and you do what you can to be consistent, and when you fail, again, here's that theme, you take that failure as feedback. “Why did you fail? Did you get hungry? Did you have temptation in the house? Did you not set your alarm?” Right? You know? “What could you do differently?” And then you just recommit to being consistent. Naviere Walkewicz 55:31 That is excellent. So talking about everything, this has been a wonderful conversation. When I think about lasting impact, right? So you know, you've had this incredible journey. You've helped people understand how to be more aware of their wellness, how to take action, be consistent and really drive change. What is one challenge you might have our listeners take in the w
The path to progressing as a leader isn't always linear. SUMMARY Col. (Ret.) Mike Ott shows how a childhood dream can evolve into a lifetime of impact—from commanding in uniform to leading innovation in healthcare and national defense. Hear more on Long Blue Leadership. Listen now! SHARE THIS PODCAST LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK MIKE'S LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS A leader worth his or her salt should be comfortable not being the smartest person in the room. Striving for a lack of hubris is essential in leadership. Setting a clear vision is a fundamental leadership skill. Moving people without authority is crucial for effective leadership. Resource management is key to achieving organizational goals. Acknowledging what you don't know is a strength in leadership. Effective leaders focus on guiding their teams rather than asserting dominance. Leadership is about influencing and inspiring others. A successful mission requires collaboration and shared vision. True leadership is about empowering others to succeed. CHAPTERS 00:00: Early Inspiration 06:32: Academy Years 13:17: Military Career Transition 21:33: Financial Services Journey 31:29: MOBE and Healthcare Innovation 40:12: Defense Innovation Unit 48:42: Philanthropy and Community Impact 58:11: Personal Growth and Leadership Lessons ABOUT MIKE OTT BIO Mike Ott is the Chief Executive Officer of MOBĒ, a U.S.-based company focused on whole-person health and care-management solutions. He became CEO in April 2022, taking the helm to lead the company through growth and operational excellence following a distinguished career in both the military and corporate sectors. A graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, Mike served as a Colonel in the U.S. Air Force Reserves before shifting into financial services and healthcare leadership roles including private wealth management at U.S. Bank and executive positions with UnitedHealth Group/Optum. His leadership ethos emphasizes alignment, acceleration, and human potential, building cultures where teams can thrive and leveraging data-driven models to improve health outcomes. CONNECT WITH MIKE LinkedIn MOBE CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ted Robertson | Producer: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS OUR SPEAKERS Guest, Col. (Ret.) Mike Ott '85 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 FULL TRANSCRIPT Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 A quick programming note before we begin this episode of Long Blue Leadership: This episode will be audio-only, so sit back and enjoy the listen. Welcome to Long Blue Leadership, the podcast where we share insights on leadership through the lives and experiences of Air Force Academy graduates. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. Today, on Long Blue Leadership, we welcome Col. (Ret.) Mike Ott, Class of 1985, a leader whose vision was sparked at just 9 years old during a family road trip past the Air Force Academy. That childhood dream carried him through a 24-year Air Force career, culminating in retirement as a colonel and into a life of leadership across business, innovation and philanthropy. Mike is the CEO of MOBE, a groundbreaking company that uses data analytics and a revolutionary pay-for-results model to improve health outcomes while reducing costs. He also serves as a senior adviser to the Defense Innovation Unit, supporting the secretary of defense in accelerating commercial innovation for national security. A member of the Forbes Councils, Mike shares his expertise with leaders around the world. A former Falcon Foundation trustee and longtime supporter of the Academy, Mike has given generously his time, talents and resources to strengthen the Long Blue Line. His story is one of innovation and service in uniform, in the marketplace and in his community. Mike, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad to have you here. Mike Ott 1:29 Naviere, thanks a ton. I'm glad to be here. Naviere Walkewicz 1:31 Yes, yes. Well, we're really excited. I mean, you're here for your 40th reunion. Mike Ott 1:35 Yeah, it's crazy. Naviere Walkewicz1:37 You came right in, and we're so pleased that you would join us here first for this podcast. Mike Ott 1:39 Right on. Thanks for the time. Naviere Walkewicz 1:41 Absolutely. Well, let's jump right in, because not many people can say at 9 years old they know what they want to do when they grew up, but you did. Mike Ott 1:48 Yeah. I guess some people can say it; might not be true, but for me, it's true, good or bad. And goodness gracious, right? Here for my 40th reunion, do the math team, and as a 9-year-old, that was 1972, And a lot was going on in the world in 1972 whether it was political unrest, Vietnam and all of that, and the Academy was in the thick of it. And so we had gone — It was our first significant family vacation. My father was a Chicago policeman. We drove in the 1968 Buick LaSabre, almost straight through. Stopped, stayed at a Holiday Inn, destination Colorado, simply, just because nobody had ever seen the mountains before. That was why. And we my parents, mom, mom and dad took myself. I have two younger sisters, Pikes Peak, Academy, Garden of the Gods, Royal Gorge. And I remember noon meal formation, and the bell going off. Guys at the time — we hadn't had women as cadets at that point in time — running out in their flight suits as I recall lining up ready to go. And for me, it was the energy, right, the sense of, “Wow, this is something important.” I didn't know exactly how important it was, but I knew it was important, and I could envision even at that age, there was they were doing good, Naviere Walkewicz 3:21 Wow. Nine years old, your family went on vacation, and it just struck you as this is important and something that I want to do. So what did that conversation look like after that experience that you had as a 9-year-old and kind of manifest this in yourself? How did that go with your parents? Mike Ott 3:36 Well, I didn't say too much about it, as I was in grammar school, but as high school hit, you know, I let my folks know what my plans were, and I had mom and dad — my mother's still alive, my father passed about a year ago. Very, very good, hard-working, ethical people, but hadn't gone to college, and we had been told, “Look, you know, you need to get an education.” They couldn't. I wish they had. They were both very, very, very bright, and so I knew college was a plan. I also knew there wasn't a lot of money to pay for it. So I'm certain that that helped bake in a few things. But as I got into high school, I set my sights. I went to public high school in Chicago, and I remember freshman year walking into my counselor's office, and said, “I want to go to the Air Force Academy,” and he kind of laughed. Naviere Walkewicz 3:21 Really? Mike Ott 3:22 Well, we had 700 kids in my class, and maybe 40% went on to college, right? And the bulk of them went to community college or a state school. I can count on one hand the number of folks that went to an academy or an Ivy League school or something of that. So it was it was around exposure. It had nothing to do with intelligence. It was exposure and just what these communities were accustomed to. A lot of folks went into the trades and pieces like that. So my counselor's reaction wasn't one of shock or surprise insofar as that's impossible. It was, “We haven't had a lot of people make that commitment this early on, and I'm glad to help.” Naviere Walkewicz 5:18 Oh, I love that. Mike Ott 5:19 Which is wonderful, and what I had known at the time, Mr. Needham... Naviere Walkewicz 5:23 You Remember his name? Mike Ott 5:24 Yeah, he was in the Navy Reserves. He was an officer, so he got the joke. He got the joke and helped me work through what classes to take, how to push myself. I didn't need too much guidance there. I determined, “Well, I've got to distinguish myself.” And I like to lean in. I like a headwind, and I don't mind a little bit of an uphill battle, because once you get up there, you feel great. I owe an awful lot to him. And, not the superintendent, but the principal of our school was a gentleman named Sam Ozaki, and Sam was Japanese American interned during World War II as a young man, got to of service age and volunteered and became a lieutenant in the Army and served in World War II in Europe, right, not in Asia. So he saw something in me. He too became an advocate. He too became someone that sought to endorse, support or otherwise guide me. Once I made that claim that I was going to go to the Academy. Naviere Walkewicz 6:30 Wow. So you mentioned something that really stuck with me. You said, you know, you didn't mind kind of putting yourself out there and doing the hard things, because you knew when you got to the top it was going to feel really great. Was that something you saw from your father? Was that something, there are key leaders in your life that emulated that? Or is that just something that you always had in yourself? Mike Ott 6:51 I would say there's certainly an environmental element to it — how I was raised, what I was exposed to, and then juxtaposition as to what I observed with other family members or other parts of the community where things didn't work out very well, right? And, you know, I put two and two together. y father demonstrated, throughout his entire career what it means to have a great work ethic. As did mom and, you know, big, tough Chicago cop for 37 years. But the other thing that I learned was kindness, and you wouldn't expect to learn that from the big, tough Chicago cop, but I think it was environment, observing what didn't occur very often and how hard work, if I apply myself, can create outcomes that are going to be more fulfilling for me. Naviere Walkewicz 7:48 Wow, you talked about kindness. How did you see kindness show up in your journey as a cadet at the Air Force Academy? Or did you? Mike Ott 7:58 Yeah, gosh, so I remember, started in June of 1981, OK, and still connected with many of the guys and women that with whom I went to basic training and all that. The first moment of kindness that I experienced that it was a mutual expression, but one where I recognized, “Wow, every one of us is new here. None of us has a real clue.” We might have some idea because we had somebody had a sibling or a mother that was in the military or father that went to the academy at the time, but none of us really knew, right? We were knuckleheads, right? Eighteen years old. Maybe there were a couple of prior-enlisted folks. I don't recall much of that, but I having gone to a public high school in Chicago, where we had a variety of different ethnicities. I learned how to just understand people for who they are, meet them for who they are, and respect every individual. That's how I was raised, and that's how I exhibited myself, I sought to conduct myself in high school. So I get to the Academy, and you're assigned, you know, the first couple three nights, the first few weeks before you go to Jacks Valley, you're assigned. It was all a alphabetical, and my roommate was an African American fellow named Kevin Nixon. All right, my God, Kevin Nixon, and this guy, he was built. I mean, he was rock solid, right? And he had that 1000-yard stare, right? Very intimidating. And I'm this, like, 6-foot-tall, 148-pound runner, like, holy dork, right? And I'm assigned — we're roommates, and he just had a very stoicism, or a stoic nature about him. And I remember, it was our second night at the Academy, maybe first night, I don't quite recall, and we're in bed, and it's an hour after lights out, and I hear him crying, and like, well, what do you do? Like, we're in this together. It was that moment, like we're both alone, but we're not right. He needs to know that he's not alone. So I walked around and went over his bed, and I said, “Hey, man, I miss my mom and dad too. Let's talk. And we both cried, right? And I'll tell you what, he and I were pals forever. It was really quite beautiful. And what didn't happen is he accepted my outreach, right? And he came from a very difficult environment, one where I'm certain there was far more racial strife than I had experienced in Chicago. He came from Norfolk, Virginia, and he came from — his father worked in the shipyards and really, really tough, tough, tough background. He deserved to be the Academy. He was a great guy, very bright, and so we became friends, and I tried to be kind. He accepted that kindness and reciprocated in ways where he created a pretty beautiful friendship. Naviere Walkewicz 7:48 Oh, my goodness. Thank you for sharing that story. And you got me in the feels a little bit, because I remember those nights, even you know me having family members that went through the Academy. There's just something about when you're in it yourself, and in that moment, it's raw. Mike Ott 11:13 Raw is a good word. Naviere Walkewicz 11:15 Oh, thank you for that. So you're at the Academy and you end up doing 24 years. I don't mean to, like, mash all that into one sentence, but let's talk… Mike Ott 11:22 I didn't do very much. It was the same year repeated 24 times over. Like, not a very good learner, right? Not a very good learner. Naviere Walkewicz 11:30 Yeah, I was gonna ask, you know, in that journey, because, had you planned to do a career in the Air Force? Mike Ott 11:36 Well, I didn't know, right? I went in, eyes wide open, and my cumulative time in the Air Force is over 24 but it was only it was just shy of seven active duty, and then 22, 23, in the Reserves, right? I hadn't thought about the Reserves, but I had concluded, probably at the, oh, maybe three-year mark that I wanted to do other things. It had nothing to do with disdain, a sense of frustration or any indignation, having gone to the Academy, which I'm very, very proud of, and it meant an awful lot to who I am. But it was, “Wait, this is, this is my shot, and I'm going to go try other things.” I love ambiguity, I'm very curious. Have a growth mindset and have a perhaps paradoxical mix of being self-assured, but perhaps early on, a bit too, a bit too, what's the word I was thinking of? I wrote this down — a bit too measured, OK, in other words, risk taking. And there were a few instances where I realized, “Hey, man, dude, take some risk. What's the downside? And if it isn't you, who else?” So it was that mindset that helped me muscle through and determine that, coupled with the fact that the Air Force paid for me to go to graduate school, they had programs in Boston, and so I got an MBA, and I did that at night. I had a great commander who let me take classes during the day when I wasn't traveling. It was wonderful. It was there that I was exposed to elements of business and in financial services, which ultimately drew me into financial services when I separated from active duty. Naviere Walkewicz 13:17 Well, I love that, because first you talked about a commander that saw, “How can I help you be your best version of yourself?” And I think the other piece of financial service, because I had to dabble in that as well — the second word is service. And so you've never stopped serving in all the things that you've done. So you took that leap, that risk. Is that something that you felt developed while you're at the Academy, or it's just part of your ethos. Mike Ott 13:41 It developed. It matured. I learned how to apply it more meaningfully at the Academy after a couple, three moments, where I realized that I can talk a little bit about mentoring and then I can come back to that, but mentoring — I don't know, I don't recall having heard that term as a mechanism for helping someone develop. I'm sure we used it when I was a cadet at the Academy and out of the Academy, and having been gone through different programs and banking and different graduate programs, the term comes up an awful lot. You realize, wow, there's something there helping the next generation, but also the reciprocity of learning from that generation yourself. I didn't really understand the whole mentoring concept coming out of Chicago and getting here, and just thought things were very hierarchical, very, very command structure, and it was hit the standards or else. And that that's not a bad mindset, right? But it took me a little while to figure out that there's a goodness factor that comes with the values that we have at the Academy, and it's imbued in each one of you know, service excellence, all of those pieces. But for the most part, fellow cadets and airmen and women want to help others. I mean, it's in service. It's in our DNA. Man that blew right past me. I had no idea, and I remember at one point I was entering sophomore year, and I was asked to be a glider instructor. I'd done the soaring and jumping program over the summer, and like, “Hey, you know you're not too bad at glider. You want to be an instructor?” At the time, that was pretty big deal, yeah, glider instructors. Like, “Yeah, no, I'm not going to do that, you know? I've got to study. Like, look at my GPA.” That didn't really matter. “And I'm going to go up to Boulder and go chase women.” Like, I was going to meet women, right? So, like, but I didn't understand that, that that mechanism, that mentoring mechanism, isn't always bestowed upon a moment or a coupling of individuals. There are just good people out there that see goodness in others that want to help them through that. I had no clue, but that was a turning point for me. Naviere Walkewicz 15:56 Because you said no. Mike Ott 15:58 I said no, right? And it was like what, you know, a couple months later, I remember talking with somebody like, “Yep, swing and a miss,” right? But after that, it changed how I was going to apply this self-assuredness, not bravado, but willingness to try new things, but with a willingness to be less measured. Why not? Trust the system. Trust the environment that you're in, the environment that we're in, you were in, I was in, that we're representing right now, it is a trusted environment. I didn't know that. And there were a lot of environments when I was being raised, they weren't trusted environments. And so you have a sort of mental callous mindset in many ways, and that that vigilance, that sense of sentinel is a good protection piece, but it prevents, it prevents... It doesn't allow for the membrane to be permeated, right? And so that trust piece is a big deal. I broke through after that, and I figured it out, and it helped me, and it helped me connect a sense of self-assuredness to perhaps being less measured, more willing to take ambiguity. You can be self-assured but not have complete belief in yourself, OK? And it helped me believe in myself more. I still wish I'd have been glider instructor. What a knucklehead. My roommate wound up becoming one. Like, “You, son of a rat, you.” Naviere Walkewicz 17:29 So tell me, when did the next opportunity come up where you said yes, and what did that look like in your journey? Mike Ott 17:36 I was a lieutenant. I was a lieutenant, and I was looking for a new role. I was stationed at Hanscom Field, and I was working at one program office, and I bumped — I was the athletic officer for the base with some other folks, and one of the colonels was running a different program, and he had gotten to know me and understand how I operated, what I did, and he said, “Hey, Ott, I want you to come over to my program.” And I didn't know what the program was, but I trusted him, and I did it blindly. I remember his name, Col. Holy Cross. And really good guy. And yeah, I got the tap on the shoulder. Didn't blink. Didn't blink. So that was just finishing up second lieutenant. Naviere Walkewicz 18:26 What a lesson. I mean, something that stuck with you as a cadet, and not that it manifested in regret, but you realized that you missed that opportunity to grow and experience and so when it came around again, what a different… So would you say that as you progress, then you know, because at this point you're a lieutenant, you know, you took on this new role, what did you learn about yourself? And then how did that translate to the decision to move from active duty to the Reserve and into… Mike Ott 18:56 You'll note what I didn't do when I left active duty was stay in the defense, acquisition, defense engineering space. I made a hard left turn… Naviere Walkewicz 19:13 Intentionally. Mike Ott 19:14 Intentionally. And went into financial services. And that is a hard left turn away from whether it's military DOD, military industrial complex, working for one of the primes, or something like that. And my mindset was, “If I'm not the guy in the military making the decision, setting strategy and policy…” Like I was an O-3. Like, what kind of policy am I setting? Right? But my point was, if I'm not going to, if I may, if I decided to not stay in the military, I wasn't going to do anything that was related to the military, right, like, “Let's go to green pastures. Set myself apart. Find ways to compete…” Not against other people. I don't think I need to beat the hell out of somebody. I just need to make myself better every day. And that's the competition that I just love, and I love it it's greenfield unknown. And why not apply my skills in an area where they haven't been applied and I can learn? So as an active-duty person — to come back and answer your question — I had worked some great bosses, great bosses, and they would have career counseling discussions with me, and I was asked twice to go to SOS in-residence. I turned it down, you know, as I knew. And then the third time my boss came to me. He's like, “OK, what are you doing? Idiot. Like, what are you doing?” That was at Year 5. And I just said, “Hey, sir, I think I'm going to do something different.” Naviere Walkewicz 20:47 Didn't want to take the slot from somebody else. Mike Ott 20:49 That's right. Right. And so then it was five months, six months later, where I put in my papers. I had to do a little more time because of the grad school thing, which is great. And his commander, this was a two-star that I knew as well, interviewed me and like, one final, like, “What are you doing?” He's like, “You could have gone so far in the Air Force.” And I looked at the general — he was a super-good dude. I said, “What makes you think I'm not going to do well outside of the Air Force?” And he smiled. He's like, “Go get it.” So we stayed in touch. Great guy. So it had nothing to do with lack of fulfillment or lack of satisfaction. It had more to do with newness, curiosity, a challenge in a different vein. Naviere Walkewicz 21:30 So let's walk into that vein. You entered into this green pasture. What was that experience like? Because you've just been in something so structured. And I mean, would you say it was just structured in a different way? Mike Ott 21:48 No, not structured. The industry… So, I separated, tried an engineering job for about eight months. Hated it. I was, I was development engineer at Ford Motor Company, great firm. Love the organization, bored stiff, right? Just not what I wanted to do, and that's where I just quit. Moved back to Chicago, where I'm from, and started networking and found a role with an investment bank, ABN AMRO, which is a large Dutch investment bank that had begun to establish itself in the United States. So their headquarters in Chicago and I talked fast enough where somebody took a bet on me and was brought into the investment banking arm where I was on the capital markets team and institutional equities. So think of capital markets, and think of taking companies public and distributing those shares to large institutions, pensions funds, mutual funds, family offices. Naviere Walkewicz 22:48 So a lot of learning and excitement for you. Mike Ott 22:51 Super fun. And so the industry is very structured. How capital is established, capital flows, very regulated. We've got the SEC, we've got the FDIC, a lot of complex regulations and compliance matters. That's very, very, very structured. But there was a free-wheelingness in the marketplace. And if you've seen Wolf of Wall Street and things like that, some of that stuff happened. Crazy! And I realized that with my attitude, sense of placing trust in people before I really knew them, figuring that, “OK, what's the downside? I get nipped in the fan once, once or twice. But if I can thrust trust on somebody and create a relationship where they're surprised that I've trusted them, it's probably going to build something reciprocal. So learn how to do that.” And as a young fellow on the desk, wound up being given more responsibility because I was able to apply some of the basic tenets of leadership that you learned and I learned at the Academy. And face it, many of the men and women that work on Wall Street or financial services simply haven't gone to the Academy. It's just, it's the nature of numbers — and don't have that experience. They have other experiences. They have great leadership experiences, but they don't have this. And you and I may take it for granted because we were just four years of just living through it. It oozed in every moment, every breath, every interaction, every dialog, it was there.But we didn't know it was being poured in, sprinkled across as being showered. We were being showered in it. But I learned how to apply that in the relationships that I built, knowing that the relationships that I built and the reputation that I built would be lasting and impactful and would be appropriate investments for the future endeavors, because there's always a future, right? So it wasn't… again, lot of compliance, lot of regulations, but just the personalities. You know, I did it for the challenge, right? I did it because I was curious. I did it because I wanted to see if I could succeed at it. There were other folks that did it simply because it was for the money. And many, some of them made it. They might have sold their soul to get there. Some didn't make it. Maybe it wasn't the right pursuit for them in the first place. And if I go back to mentoring, which we talked about a little bit, and I help young men and women, cadets or maybe even recent grads, my guidance to them is, don't chase the money, chase the environment, right? And chase the environment that allows you to find your flow and contribute to that environment. The money will come. But I saw it — I've seen it with grads. I've seen it with many of the folks that didn't make it in these roles in financial services, because I thought, “Hey, this is where the money is.” It might be. But you have to go back to the basis of all this. How are you complected? What are your values? Do they align with the environment that you're in? And can you flow in a way where your strengths are going to allow success to happen and not sell your soul? Naviere Walkewicz 26:26 Yeah, you said two things that really stood out to me in that —the first one was, you know, trusting, just starting from a place of trust and respect, because the opportunity to build a relationship faster, and also there's that potential for future something. And then the second thing is the environment and making sure it aligns with your values. Is that how you got to MOBE? Mike Ott 26:50 Yeah, I would say how I got to MOBE, that certainly was a factor. Good question. Naviere Walkewicz 26:57 The environment, I feel, is very much aligned Mike Ott 27:00 Very much so and then… But there's an element of reputation and relationship that allowed me to get there. So now I'm lucky to be a part of this firm. We're 250 people. We will do $50 million of revenue. We're growing nicely. I've been in health care for four years. Now, we are we're more than just healthcare. I mean, it's deep data. We can get into some of that later, but I had this financial services background. I was drawn to MOBE, but I had established a set of relationships with people at different investment banks, with other families that had successfully built businesses and just had relationships. And I was asked to come on to the board because MOBE, at the time, great capabilities, but struggled with leadership during COVID. Lot of companies did. It's not an indictment as to the prior CEO, but he and the team struggled to get through COVID. So initially I was approached to come on to the board, and that was through the founders of the firm who had known me for 20 years and knew my reputation, because I'd done different things at the investment bank, I'd run businesses at US Bank, which is a large commercial bank within the country, and they needed someone that… They cared very little about health care experience, which is good for me, and it was more around a sense of leadership. They knew my values. They trusted me. So initially I was asked to come onto the board, and that evolved into, “No, let's just do a whole reset and bring you on as the CEO.” Well, let's go back to like, what makes me tick. I love ambiguity. I love a challenge. And this has been a bit of a turnaround in that great capabilities, but lost its way in COVID, because leadership lost its way. So there's a lot of resetting that needed to occur. Corpus of the firm, great technology, great capabilities, but business model adaptation, go to market mechanisms and, frankly, environment. Environment. But I was drawn to the environment because of the people that had founded the organization. The firm was incubated within a large pharmaceutical firm. This firm called Upsher-Smith, was a Minnesota firm, the largest private and generic pharmaceutical company in the country, and sold for an awful lot of money, had been built by this family, sold in 2017 and the assets that are MOBE, mostly data, claims, analysis capabilities stayed separate, and so they incubated that, had a little bit of a data sandbox, and then it matriculated to, “Hey, we've got a real business here.” But that family has a reputation, and the individuals that founded it, and then ultimately found MOBE have a reputation. So I was very comfortable with the ambiguity of maybe not knowing health care as much as the next guy or gal, but the environment I was going into was one where I knew this family and these investors lived to high ethical standards, and there's many stories as to how I know that, but I knew that, and that gave me a ton of comfort. And then it was, “We trust you make it happen. So I got lucky. Naviere Walkewicz 30:33 Well, you're, I think, just the way that you're wired and the fact that you come from a place of trust, obviously, you know, OK, I don't have the, you know, like the medical background, but there are a lot of experts here that I'm going to trust to bring that expertise to me. And I'm going to help create an environment that they can really thrive in. Mike Ott 30:47 I'm certain many of our fellow alum have been in this experience, had these experiences where a leader worth his or her salt should be comfortable not being the smartest gal or guy in the room. In fact, you should strive for that to be the case and have a sense of lack of hubris and proudly acknowledge what you don't know. But what I do know is how to set vision. What I do know is how to move people without authority. What I do know is how to resource. And that's what you do if you want to move a mission, whether it's in the military, small firm like us that's getting bigger, or, you know, a big organization. You can't know it all. Naviere Walkewicz 31:30 So something you just mentioned that I think a lot of our listeners would really like, would love a little bit to peel us back a little bit. You said, “I know how to set a vision. I know how to…” I think it was move… Mike Ott 31:45 Move people without authority and prioritize. Naviere Walkewicz 31:47 But can we talk a little bit about that? Because I think that is really a challenge that some of our you know younger leaders, or those early in their leadership roles struggle with. Maybe, can you talk a little bit about that? Mike Ott 32:01 For sure, I had some — again, I tried to do my best to apply all the moments I had at the Academy and the long list of just like, “What were you thinking?” But the kindness piece comes through and… Think as a civilian outside looking in. They look at the military. It's very, very, very structured, OK, but the best leaders the men and women for whom you and I have served underneath or supported, never once barked an order, OK? They expressed intent, right? And you and I and all the other men and women in uniform, if we were paying attention, right, sought to execute the mission and satisfaction of that intent and make our bosses' bosses' jobs easier. That's really simple. And many outsiders looking in, we get back to just leadership that are civilians. They think, “Oh my gosh, these men and women that are in the military, they just can't assimilate. They can't make it in the civilian world.” And they think, because we come from this very, very hierarchical organization, yes, it is very hierarchical — that's a command structure that's necessary for mission execution — but the human part, right? I think military men and women leaders are among the best leaders, because guess what? We're motivating men and women — maybe they get a pat on the back. You didn't get a ribbon, right? Nobody's getting a year-end bonus, nobody's getting a spot bonus, nobody's getting equity in the Air Force, and it's gonna go public, right? It's just not that. So the best men and women that I for whom I've worked with have been those that have been able to get me to buy in and move and step up, and want to demonstrate my skills in coordination with others, cross functionally in the organization to get stuff done. And I think if there's anything we can remind emerging graduates, you know, out of the Academy, is: Don't rely on rank ever. Don't rely on rank. I had a moment: I was a dorky second lieutenant engineer, and we were launching a new system. It was a joint system for Marines, Navy and Air Force, and I had to go from Boston to Langley quite often because it was a TAC-related system, Tactical Air Force-related system. And the I was the program manager, multi-million dollar program for an interesting radio concept. And we were putting it into F-15s, so in some ground-based situations. And there was this E-8, crusty E-8, smoked, Vietnam, all these things, and he was a comms dude, and one of the systems was glitching. It just wasn't working, right? And we were getting ready to take this thing over somewhere overseas. And he pulls alongside me, and it's rather insubordinate, but it was a test, right? He's looking at me, Academy guy, you know, second lieutenant. He was a master sergeant, and he's like, “Well, son, what are we going to do now?” In other words, like, “We're in a pickle. What are we going to do now?” But calling me son. Yeah, it's not appropriate, right? If I'd have been hierarchical and I'd relied on rank, I probably would have been justified to let him have it. Like, that's playing short ball, right? I just thought for a second, and I just put my arm around him. I said, “Gee, Dad, I was hoping you're gonna help me.” And mother rat, we figured it out, and after that, he was eating out of my hand. So it was a test, right? Don't be afraid to be tested but don't take the bait. Naviere Walkewicz 35:46 So many good just lessons in each of these examples. Can you share a time at MOBE when you've seen someone that has been on your team that has demonstrated that because of the environment you've created? Mike Ott 35:57 For sure. So I've been running the firm now for about three and a half years. Again, have adapted and enhanced our capabilities, changed the business model a bit, yet functioning in our approach to the marketplace remains the same. We help people get better, and we get paid based on the less spend they have in the system. Part of some of our principles at MOBE are pretty simple, like, eat, sleep, move, smile, all right. And then be thoughtful with your medication. We think that medicine is an aid, not a cure. Your body's self-healing and your mind controls your body. Naviere Walkewicz 36:32 Eat, sleep, move, smile. Love that. Mike Ott 36:35 So what's happening with MOBE, and what I've seen is the same is true with how I've altered our leadership team. I've got some amazing leaders — very, very, very accomplished. But there are some new leaders because others just didn't fit in. There wasn't the sense of communal trust that I expected. There was too much, know-it-all'ing going on, right? And I just won't have that. So the easiest way to diffuse that isn't about changing head count, but it's around exhibiting vulnerability in front of all these folks and saying, “Look, I don't know that, but my lead pharmacist here, my lead clinician here, helped me get through those things.” But I do have one leader right, who is our head of vice president of HR, a woman who grew up on a farm in southern Minnesota, who has come to myself and our president and shared that she feels liberated at MOBE because, though this firm is larger than one that she served as a director of HR, previously, she's never had to look — check her six, look right, look left and seek alignment to ensure she's harmonizing with people. Naviere Walkewicz 37:49 Can you imagine being in an environment like that? Mike Ott 38:51 It's terrible, it's toxic, and it's wrong. Leaders, within the organization, I think you're judged more by what you don't do and the actions that you don't take. You can establish trust, and you will fortify that trust when you share with the team as best you can, so long as it's nothing inappropriate, where you made a mistake, where we went wrong. What did we learn from that? Where are we going to pivot? How we're going to apply that learning to make it better, as opposed to finding blame, pointing the finger or not even acknowledging? That happens all the time, and that toxicity erodes. And regretfully, my VP of HR in prior roles experienced that, and I don't have time. Good teams shouldn't have time to rehearse the basic values of the firm. We don't have time the speed of business is like this [snaps]. So if I can build the team of men and women that trust one another, can stay in their lanes, but also recognize that they're responsible for helping run the business, and look over at the other lanes and help their fellow leaders make adjustments without the indictful comment or without sort of belittling or shaming. That's what good teams, do. You, and I did that in the Air Force, but it is not as common as you would think. Naviere Walkewicz 39:11 20 we've been talking about MOBE, and you know, the environment you're creating there, and just the way that you're working through innovation. Let's talk a little bit how you're involved with DIU, the Defense Innovation Unit. Mike Ott 39:21 Again, it's reputation in relationships. And it was probably 2010, I get a call from a fellow grad, '87 grad who was living in the Beltway, still in uniform. He was an O-5 I was an O-5. Just doing the Academy liaison work, helping good young men and women that wanted to go to the Academy get in. And that was super satisfying, thought that would be the end of my Reserve career and super fun. And this is right when the first Obama administration came in, and one of his edicts and his admin edicts was, we've got to find ways to embrace industry more, right? We can't rely on the primes, just the primes. So those were just some seeds, and along with a couple other grads, created what is now called Joint Reserve Directorate, which was spawned DIUX, which was DIU Experimental, is spawned from. So I was the owner for JRD, and DIUX as a reserve officer. And that's how we all made colonel is we were working for the chief technology officer of the Defense Department, the Hon. Zach Lemnios, wonderful fellow. Civilian, didn't have much military experience, but boy, the guy knew tech — semiconductors and areas like that. But this was the beginning of the United States recognizing that our R&D output, OK, in the aggregate, as a fund, as a percentage of GDP, whether it's coming out of the commercial marketplace or the military DoD complex, needs to be harnessed against the big fight that we have with China. We can see, you know, we've known about that for 30 years. So this is back 14 years ago. And the idea was, let's bring in men and women — there was a woman in our group too that started this area — and was like, “How do we create essential boundary span, boundary spanners, or dual-literacy people that are experiences in capital markets, finance, how capital is accumulated, innovation occurs, but then also how that applies into supporting the warfighter. So we were given a sandbox. We were given a blank slate. Naviere Walkewicz 41:37 It's your happy place. Mike Ott 41:38 Oh, super awesome. And began to build out relationships at Silicon Valley with commercial entities, and developed some concepts that are now being deployed with DIU and many other people came in and brought them all to life. But I was lucky enough after I retired from the Reserves as a colonel to be asked to come back as an adviser, because of that background and that experience, the genesis of the organization. So today I'm an unpaid SGE — special government employee — to help DIU look across a variety of different domains. And so I'm sure many of our listeners know it's key areas that we've got to harness the commercial marketplace. We know that if you go back into the '70s, ‘60s and ‘70s, and creation of the internet, GPS, precision munitions and all of that, the R&D dollars spent in the aggregate for the country, 95% came out of DOD is completely flip flopped today. Completely flipped. We happen to live in an open, free society. We hope to have capital markets and access a lot of that technology isn't burdened like it might be in China. And so that's the good and bad of this open society that we have. We've got to find ways. So we, the team does a lot of great work, and I just help them think about capital markets, money flows, threat finance. How you use financial markets to interdict, listen, see signals, but then also different technologies across cyberspace, autonomy, AI. Goodness gracious, I'm sure there's a few others. There's just so much. So I'm just an interloper that helps them think about that, and it's super fun that they think that I can be helpful. Naviere Walkewicz 43:29 Well, I think I was curious on how, because you love the ambiguity, and that's just something that fills your bucket — so while you're leading MOBE and you're creating something very stable, it sounds like DIU and being that kind of special employee, government employee, helps you to fill that need for your ambiguous side. Mike Ott 43:48 You're right. You're right. Naviere Walkewicz 43:49 Yeah, I thought that's really fascinating. Well, I think it's wonderful that you get to create that and you just said, the speed of business is this [snaps]. How do you find time in your life to balance what you also put your values around — your health — when you have such an important job and taking care of so many people? Mike Ott 44:06 I think we're all pretty disciplined at the Academy, right? I remain that way, and I'm very, very — I'm spring loaded to ‘no,' right? “Hey, do you want to go do this?” Yeah, I want to try do, I want to do a lot of things, but I'm spring loaded. So like, “Hey, you want to go out and stay, stay up late and have a drink?” “No,” right? “Do you want to do those things?” So I'm very, very regimented in that I get eight hours of sleep, right? And even somebody, even as a cadet, one of the nicknames my buddies gave me was Rip Van Ott, right? Because I'm like, “This is it.” I was a civil engineer. One of my roommates was an astro guy, and I think he pulled an all-nighter once a week. Naviere Walkewicz 45:46 Oh, my goodness, yeah. Mike Ott 45:50 Like, “Dude, what are you doing?” And it wasn't like he was straight As. I was clearly not straight As, but I'm like, “What are you doing? That's not helpful. Do the work ahead of time.” I think I maybe pulled three or four all-nighters my entire four years. Now, it's reflected in my GPA. I get that, but I finished the engineering degree. But sleep matters, right? And some things are just nonnegotiable, and that is, you know, exercise, sleep and be kind to yourself, right? Don't compare. If you're going to compare, compare yourself to yesterday, but don't look at somebody who is an F-15 pilot, and you're not. Like, I'm not. My roommate, my best man at my wedding, F-15 pilot, Test Pilot School, all these things, amazing, amazing, awesome, and super, really, really, happy and proud for him, but that's his mojo; that's his flow, right? If you're gonna do any comparison, compare yourself to the man or woman you were yesterday and “Am I better?”. Naviere Walkewicz 44:48 The power of “no” and having those nonnegotiables is really important. Mike Ott 45:53 Yeah, no, I'm not doing that. Naviere Walkewicz 45:56 I think sometimes we're wired for a “we can take on… we can take it on, we can take it on, we can take it on. We got this.” Mike Ott 46:03 For sure. Oh, my goodness. And I have that discussion with people on my team from time to time as well, and it's most often as it relates to an individual on the team that's struggling in his or her role, or whether it's by you know, if it's by omission and they're in the wrong role, that's one thing. If it's by commission, well, be a leader and execute and get that person out of there, right? That's wrong, but from time to time, it's by omission, and somebody is just not well placed. And I've seen managers, I can repatriate this person. I can get him or her there, and you have to stop for a second and tell that leader, “Yeah, I know you can. I'm certain that the only thing you were responsible for was to help that person fulfill the roles of the job that they're assigned. You could do it.” But guess what? You've got 90% of your team that needs care, nurturing and feeding. They're delivering in their function, neglect, there destroys careers, and it's going to destroy the business. So don't, don't get caught up in that. Yeah. Pack it on. Pack it on. Pack it on. You're right. When someone's in the crosshairs, I want to be in the crosshairs with you, Naviere, and Ted, and all the people that you and I affiliate with, but on the day-to-day, sustained basis, right to live, you know, to execute and be fulfilled, both in the mission, the work and stay fit, to fight and do it again. You can't. You can't. And a lot of a little bit of no goes a long way. Naviere Walkewicz 47:40 That is really good to hear. I think that's something that a lot of leaders really don't share. And I think that's really wonderful that you did. I'd like to take a little time and pivot into another area that you're heavily involved, philanthropy side. You know, you've been with the Falcon Foundation. Where did you find that intent inside of you? I mean, you always said the Academy's been part of you, but you found your way back in that space in other ways. Let's talk about that. Mike Ott 48:05 Sure. Thank you. I don't know. I felt that service is a part of me, right? And it is for all of us, whether you stay in the military or not. Part of my financial services jobs have been in wealth management. I was lucky enough to run that business for US Bank in one of my capacities, and here I am now in health care, health care of service. That aligns with wanting things to be better across any other angle. And the philanthropic, philanthropic side of things — I probably couldn't say that word when I was a cadet, but then, you know, I got out and we did different volunteer efforts. We were at Hanscom Field raising money for different organizations, and stayed with it, and always found ways to have fun with it. But recognized I couldn't… It was inefficient if I was going to be philanthropic around something that I didn't have a personal interest in. And as a senior executive at US Bank, we were all… It was tacit to the role you had roles in local foundations or community efforts. And I remember sitting down with my boss, the CFO of the bank, and then the CEO, and they'd asked me to go on to a board, and it had to do with a museum that I had no interest in, right? And I had a good enough relationship with these, with these guys, to say, “Look, I'm a good dude. I'm going to be helpful in supporting the bank. And if this is a have to, all right, I'll do it, but you got the wrong guy. Like, you want me to represent the bank passionately, you know, philanthropically, let me do this. And they're like, “OK, great.” So we pivoted, and I did other things. And the philanthropic piece of things is it's doing good. It's of service for people, entities, organizations, communities or moments that can use it. And I it's just very, very satisfying to me. So my wife and I are pretty involved that way, whether it's locally, with different organizations, lot of military support. The Academy, we're very fond of. It just kind of became a staple. Naviere Walkewicz 50:35 Did you find yourself also gravitating toward making better your community where you grew up? Mike Ott 50:41 Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my dear friends that grew up in the same neighborhood, he wound up going to the Naval Academy, and so we're we've been friends for 50 years. Seventh grade. Naviere Walkewicz 50:53 Same counselor? Mike Ott50:54 Yeah, no. Different counselor, different high school. His parents had a little bit of money, and they, he wound up going to a Catholic school nearby. But great guy, and so he and I, he runs a business that serves the VA in Chicago, and I'm on the board, and we do an awful lot of work. And one of the schools we support is a school on the south side, largely African American students and helping them with different STEM projects. It's not going to hit above the fold of a newspaper, but I could give a rat, doesn't matter to me, seeing a difference, seeing these young men and women. One of them, one of these boys, it's eye watering, but he just found out that he was picked for, he's applying to the Naval Academy, and he just found out that he got a nomination. Naviere Walkewicz 51:44 Oh my goodness, I just got chills. Mike Ott 51:46 And so, yeah, yeah, right, right. But it's wonderful. And his parents had no idea anything like that even existed. So that's one that it's not terribly formal, but boy, it looks great when you see the smile on that kid and the impact on that individual, but then the impact it leaves on the community, because it's clear opportunity for people to aspire because they know this young man or this young woman, “I can do that too.” Naviere Walkewicz 52:22 Wow. So he got his nomination, and so he would start technically making class of 2030? Mike Ott 52:27 That's right. Naviere Walkewicz 52:28 Oh, how exciting. OK Well, that's a wonderful… Mike Ott 52:27 I hope, I hope, yeah, he's a great kid. Naviere Walkewicz 52:33 Oh, that is wonderful. So you talk about, you know that spirit of giving — how have you seen, I guess, in your journey, because it hasn't been linear. We talked about how you know progression is not linear. How have you grown throughout these different experiences? Because you kind of go into a very ambiguous area, and you bring yourself, and you grow in it and you make it better. But how have you grown? What does that look like for you? Mike Ott 53:02 After having done it several times, right, i.e. entering the fray of an ambiguous environment business situation, I developed a better system and understanding of what do I really need to do out of the gates? And I've grown that way and learn to not be too decisive too soon. Decisiveness is a great gift. It's really, really it's important. It lacks. It lacks because there are too many people, less so in the military, that want to be known for having made… don't want to be known for having made a bad decision, so they don't take that risk. Right, right, right. And so that creates just sort of the static friction, and you've just got to have faith and so, but I've learned how to balance just exactly when to be decisive. And the other thing that I know about me is I am drawn to ambiguity. I am drawn… Very, very curious. Love to learn, try new things, have a range of interests and not very good at any one thing, but that range helps me in critical thinking. So I've learned to, depending on the situation, right, listen, listen, and then go. It isn't a formula. It's a flow, but it's not a formula. And instinct matters when to be decisive. Nature of the people with whom you're working, nature of the mission, evolution, phase of the organization or the unit that you're in. Now is the time, right? So balancing fostering decisiveness is something that that's worth a separate discussion. Naviere Walkewicz 54:59 Right. Wow. So all of these things that you've experienced and the growth that you've had personally — do you think about is this? Is this important to you at all, the idea of, what is your legacy, or is that not? Mike Ott 55:13 We talked a little bit about this beforehand, and I thought I've got to come up with something pithy, right? And I really, I really don't. Naviere Walkewicz 55:18 Yeah, you don't. Mike Ott 55:19 I don't think of myself as that. I'm very proud of who I am and what I've done in the reputation that I have built. I don't need my name up in lights. I know the life that I'm living and the life that I hope to live for a lot longer. My legacy is just my family, my children, the mark that I've left in the organizations that I have been a part of. Naviere Walkewicz 55:58 And the communities that you've touched, like that gentleman going and getting his nomination. I'm sure. Mike Ott 56:04 Yeah, I don't… having been a senior leader, and even at MOBE, I'm interviewed by different newspapers and all that. Like I do it because I'm in this role, and it's important for MOBE, but I'm not that full of myself, where I got to be up in lights. So I just want to be known as a man that was trustworthy, fun, tried to meet people where they are really had flaws, and sought to overcome them with the few strengths that he had, and moved everything forward. Naviere Walkewicz 56:33 Those are the kind of leaders that people will run through fire for. That's amazing. I think that's a wonderful I mean that in itself, it's like a living legacy you do every day. How can I be better than I was yesterday? And that in itself, is a bit of your living and that's really cool. Well, one of the things we like to ask is, “What is something you're doing every day to be better as a leader?” And you've covered a lot, so I mean, you could probably go back to one of those things, but is there something that you could share with our listeners that you do personally every day, to be better? Mike Ott 57:05 Exercise and read every day, every day, and except Fridays. Fridays I take… that's like, I'll stretch or just kind of go for a walk. But every day I make it a moment, you know, 45 minutes to an hour, something and better for my head, good for my body, right? That's the process in the hierarchy of way I think about it. And then read. Gen. Mattis. And I supported Gen. Mattis as a lieutenant colonel before I wanted to and stuff at the Pentagon. And he I supported him as an innovation guy for JFCOM, where he was the commander. And even back then, he was always talking about reading is leading none of us as military leaders… And I can't hold the candle to the guy, but I learned an awful lot, and I love his mindset, and that none of us can live a life long enough to take In all the leadership lessons necessary to help us drive impact. So you better be reading about it all the time. And so I read probably an hour every night, every day. Naviere Walkewicz 58:14 What are you reading right now? Mike Ott 58:15 Oh, man, I left it on the plane! I was so bummed. Naviere Walkewicz 58:17 Oh, that's the worst. You're going to have to get another copy. Mike Ott 58:22 Before I came here, I ordered it from Barnes & Noble so to me at my house when I get home. Love history and reading a book by this wonderful British author named Anne Reid. And it's, I forget the title exactly, but it's how the allies at the end of World War I sought to influence Russia and overcome the Bolsheviks. They were called the interventionalists, and it was an alliance of 15 different countries, including the U.S., Britain, France, U.K., Japan, Australia, India, trying to thwart, you know, the Bolshevik Revolution — trying to thwart its being cemented. Fascinating, fascinating. So that's what I was reading until I left it on the plane today. Naviere Walkewicz 59:07 How do you choose what to read? Mike Ott 59:10 Listen, write, love history. Love to read Air Force stuff too. Just talk to friends, right? You know, they've learned how to read like me. So we get to talk and have fun with that. Naviere Walkewicz 59:22 That's great. Yeah, that's wonderful. Well, the last question I'd like to ask you, before I want to make sure you have an opportunity to cover anything we didn't, is what is something you would share with others that they can do to become better leaders? Maybe they start doing it now, so in the future, they're even stronger as a leader. Mike Ott 59:42 Two things I would say, and try to have these exist in the same breath in the same moment, is have the courage to make it try and make it better every day, all right, and be kind to yourself, be forgiving. Naviere Walkewicz 59:59 That's really powerful. Can you share an example? And I know I that's we could just leave it there, but being courageous and then being kind to yourself, they're almost on two opposite sides. Have you had, can you share an example where I guess you've done that right? You had to be you were courageous and making something better, and maybe it didn't go that way, so you have to be kind to yourself. Mike Ott 1:00:23 Yeah, happy to and I think any cadet will hear this story and go like, “Huh, wow, that's interesting.” And it also plays with the arc of progress isn't linear. I graduated in '85 went to flight school, got halfway through flight school, and there was a RIF, reduction in force. And our class, our flight class, I was flying jets, I was soloing. I was academically — super easy, flying average, right? You know, I like to joke that I've got the fine motor skills of a ham sandwich, right? You know, but, but I didn't finish flight school. And you think about this, here it is. I started in 1981 there were still vestiges of Vietnam. Everyone's going to be a fighter pilot. Kill, kill, kill. Blood makes the grass grow. All of that was there. And I remember when this happened, it was very frustrating for me. It was mostly the major root of frustration wasn't that I wasn't finishing flight school. It was the nature by which the determination that I wasn't finishing was made. And it was, it was a financial decision. We had too many guys and gals, and they were just finding, you know, average folks and then kicking them out. So our class graduated a lower percent than, I think, in that era, it was late '85, '86, maybe '87, but you can look at outflows, and it was interesting, they were making budget cuts. So there was a shaming part there, having gone to the Academy. Naviere Walkewicz 1:02:02 And knowing since 9 years old. Mike Ott 1:20:04 Right, right, right, and I knew I wanted to go the Academy. I'd like to fly, let's check it out and see if it's for me. I would much rather have been not for me, had I made the decision I don't want to do this or that I was just unsafe and didn't want to do it. The way it turned out is, and this is where I learned a little bit about politics as well. In my class, again, I was very average. Like, nobody's ever going to say, like, yeah, I was going to go fly the Space Shuttle. Like, no way, right? Very, very average, but doing just fine. And a lot of guys and gals wanted to go be navigators, and that's great. I looked in the regs, and I learned this as a cadet, and it's helped me in business, too. If there's a rule, there's a waiver. Like, let me understand the regs, and I asked to go to a board. Instead of just submitting a letter to appeal, I asked to go to a board. And so I went to a board of an O-5 five, couple of threes O-4 four, and ultimately shared the essence of why I shouldn't be terminated in the program. And son of a gun, they agreed, and I still have the letter. The letter says, “Recommend Lt. Ott for reinstatement.” Nobody in my class has that letter, nobody makes the appeal. And I'm like, I'm going downstream. I'm going downstream. And that's the Chicago in me, and that's the piece about… but also move forward, but forgive yourself, and I'll get to that. And so I, I was thrilled, My goodness, and the argument I had is, like, look, you're just not keeping me current. You put me in the sim, and then you're waiting too long to put me in the jet. The regs don't allow for that. And like, you're right. So I'm assigned to go back to the jet. My pals are thrilled. I'm going to stay in the same class. I don't have to wash back. And then I get a call from the DO's office — director of operations — and it was from some civilian person so the DO overrode the board's decision. Heartbreaking. Heartbreaking. Naviere Walkewicz 1:04:12 You were so high, you did all of your work. And then… Mike Ott 1:04:15 Yeah, and then heartbreaking and frustrating, and I guess the word is indignant: anger aroused through frustration. In that I figured it out. I knew exactly what's happening. I made the appeal and I won. And it wasn't I was expecting to be assigned to fly a fighter. It was like, “Just let me, let me express the merits of my capabilities. It's how the system is designed.” The son of a gun, I jumped in my car and I ran to base and I waited and reported in. He didn't really know who I was. That's because he didn't make a decision. It was just it was that decision, and that's how life comes at you. That's just how it is. It isn't linear. So how do you take that and then say, “Well, I'm going to be kind to myself and make something out of it.” And he went through, you know, a dissertation as to why, and I asked him if I could share my views, and it's pretty candid, and I just said, If my dad were something other than the Chicago policeman, and maybe if he was a senator or general officer, I wouldn't be sitting here. That lit him up, right? That lit him up. But I had to state my views. So I knew I was out of the program. Very, very frustrating. Could have had the mayor of Chicago call. Didn't do that, right? Like, OK, I understand where this is it. That was very frustrating and somewhat shaming. But where the forgiveness comes in and be kind to yourself, is that I ran into ground. I ran into ground and drove an outcome where I still… It's a moment of integrity. I drove an outcome like, there you go. But then what do you do? Forgive yourself, right? Because you didn't do anything wrong, OK? And you pivot. And I turned that into a moment where I started cold calling instructors at the Academy. Because, hey, now I owe the Air Force five years, Air Force is looking for, you know, things that I don't want to do. And thank goodness I had an engineering degree, and I cold called a guy at a base in Hanscom. And this is another tap on the shoulder. Naviere Walkewicz 1:06:24 That's how you got to Hanscom. Gotcha. Mike Ott 1:06:27 There was a friend who was Class of '83, a woman who was in my squadron, who was there. Great egg. And she's like, “Hey, I was at the O Club.” Called her. I said, “Hey, help me out. I got this engineering degree. I want to go to one of these bases. Called Lt. Col. Davis, right? I met him at the O Club. I called a guy, and he's like, “Yeah, let's do this.” Naviere Walkewicz 1:06:44 Wow, I love that.. Mike Ott 1:06:46 It was fantastic So it's a long winded way, but progress isn't linear. And progressing through that and not being a victim, right, recognizing the conditions and the environment that I could control and those that I can't. Anything that I could control, I took advantage of and I sought to influence as best possible. Ran into ground and I feel great about it, and it turns out to be a testament of one of my best successes. Naviere Walkewicz 1:07:17 Wow. Thank you for sharing
From the Pentagon on 9/11 to keeping service members safe through timely innovation, Dave Harden ‘95 embodies what it means to run toward the fire. SUMMARY In this episode of Long Blue Leadership with host Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99, hear how adversity, gratitude and courage forged a leader others would follow anywhere. From his harrowing experience during the 9/11 attacks to overcoming childhood adversity and pioneering innovation in the Air Force, Dave Harden shares practical lessons on gratitude, resilience and the importance of running toward challenges rather than away from them. The conversation emphasizes that true leadership is forged in the fire of adversity and that gratitude can transform hardship into fuel for growth. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK DAVE'S LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS Leadership is about how we respond in crisis. Everyone has a personal story of 9/11. Muscle memory from training prepares us for challenges. Gratitude shifts our perspective from burden to opportunity. Looking up fosters hope and gratitude. Gratitude can transform lives and relationships. Innovation is crucial for effective leadership. Courage is a choice we make every day. Hardships prepare us for future leadership roles. True leaders run toward the fire, not away from it. CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to Leadership Lessons 01:28 The Impact of 9/11 on Leadership 09:40 Overcoming Childhood Adversity 14:27 The Power of Gratitude 16:56 Innovation in the Air Force 24:43 Transitioning to the Private Sector 31:16 Courage and Leadership Choices ABOUT DAVE HARDEN BIO Dave Harden is a Class of 1995 graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, where he earned his B.S. in electrical engineering and began a distinguished career in the U.S. Air Force Reserve. He went on to serve at the Pentagon as chief of strategic prioritization for the Air Force and later as the chief architect and chief operating officer of AFWERX, the service's innovation accelerator. Building on that experience, he founded and now leads Outpost Ventures (also known as “The Outpost”), a firm dedicated to guiding dual-use technology companies across the so-called “valley of death” from promising concept to real nation-scale impact. At Outpost Ventures, Harden leverages his deep experience in national security, technology transition and strategic decision-making to help entrepreneurs navigate both government and commercial ecosystems. His blend of military leadership, innovation acumen and venture focus makes him a valued partner for founders tackling the toughest problems at the intersection of defense and industry. CONNECT WITH DAVE LinkedIn Outpost Ventures CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ted Robertson | Producer: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Guest, Dave "Big D" Harden '95 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:12 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership, where we explore the lessons of leadership through the lives and stories of Air Force Academy graduates. I'm your host, Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. My guest today is Dave Harden, Class of 1995. Dave is widely accepted in the Long Blue Line community for his leadership, service, business acumen and his willingness to run toward the fire. Dave Harden 0:35 When bad things are happening and fires are burning around you, you won't even think for a second, “I need to help someone. I need to do the thing.” Naviere Walkewicz 0:46 From his time as a C-17 pilot to his work at the Pentagon and in the private sector, David's faced both personal and professional moments that shaped not just his career, but his philosophy of leadership. In our conversation, we'll talk about three transformative moments in his journey — from being just 400 feet away from impact during the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon, to overcoming hardships in his childhood, to his work pioneering innovation at the highest levels in government and business. Along the way, we'll hear about the meaning behind his call sign, “Big D,” and engage in practical leadership lessons that have transformed his life and can transform yours. This is a conversation for cadets, aspiring leaders, seasoned business professionals and lifelong learners alike, because leadership isn't just about what we do; it's how we respond when the fire is burning right in front of us. Dave, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Dave Harden 1:38 Thanks for having me on today. I'm excited to be here. Naviere Walkewicz 1:41 We are so excited, and I think this is going to be a real conversation that's extremely practical for our listeners, but we're going to jump into a really important moment, and this is one that encourages so many people — 9/11. Can you talk about that experience with us? Dave Harden 1:57 I've been able to speak over the years post the event. Talked to 15,000 people about 10 years after the event and have been able to share this story many times over, and I'm glad to be able to share it here with us today. Everyone knew what happened — kind of the Twin Towers. The first story comes out. I was busy in the thralls of my job at the Pentagon. Actually getting stuff out for President Bush, for him to make statements to some of my work in the Baltics at the time. So I wasn't really paying attention kind of to what was going on at the World Trade Center. Kind of knew what was going on. My beautiful redheaded wife, Angie, was coming to pick me up. So at the time, we had a young daughter, and she was pregnant with what would be my son, but we didn't know that at the time. So she was supposed to pick me up from the ultrasound, and so I rushed outside, and I don't remember the exact timing. Maybe she's supposed to pick me up at 9:15, 9:30, is right around, as we know now, when the plane would come into the Pentagon. So I'm out on the south bridge of the Pentagon, and it winds up being on the side of the impact of the plane would come in. And standing out there, I remember looking, it was a beautiful day, quiet, and if you remember, not a lot of people, there wasn't a lot of videos — not a lot of people actually saw the plane impact. And so those things you never forget. So that day, standing out there, I saw this plane coming. But we're by Reagan National Airport, right? So you're thinking that another plane's coming into Reagan. No big deal. I'm waiting for Angie to pick me up. She winds up being about five, 10 minutes late, and in hindsight, she always said, “If because I was late, you lost your life, I would never forgive myself.” And so I watch the plane come in, and then all of a sudden, it's like, “Holy crap! This plane is pointed right at me.” And so as it's coming straight in, I start running over the bridge. Little did I know Angie was just driving under the bridge at the time. So the plane comes over the top of her car, and as the plane impacts, if you remember, it kind of like actually careened, bounced into a 45-degree angle and then hit the building. So I'm running off the bridge. I'll never forget the sound, the flames, the searing heat as I was kind of running off the bridge, as the plane came in. And you could hear the engines spooled up, because if you remember, kind of like, obviously the terrorists are full throttle. And I remember looking in and seeing the people in the window, and I can't imagine their emotions and what they were going through in their final moments of life. So the explosion happens, I'm running off. I then run back into the bridge, go back into the building, really not thinking, and just like, you know, you're like, “How can I help?” So there's fire, there's smoke, and so we just start trying to get folks out and they start setting up kind of triage stations, both inside the courtyard, you know, at the Pentagon, and on the outside. So do that about 45 minutes, like, an hour helping out. And then enough people got me to kind of stabilize, you know, the situation. And so then, you know, I'm in the mission of finding my wife. So I was fortunate to kind of find her in the parking lot, you know. And obviously we have a moment. And it was interesting, because from her vantage point, she just was kind of blocked by the bridge. She saw the plane, and then they just saw the explosion and the fire, and so she thought I was dead. Naviere Walkewicz 6:03 I can't imagine how she was feeling at that moment. Dave Harden 6:06 So she takes Madison out. She's holding Madison, and she just starts bawling. She's like, “I just lost my husband,” right? And it's amazing, because Madison, who's, I guess, 2 years old, goes, “Mommy, it's OK. God will take care of the fire. God will put it out.” And the power of the words of a 2-year-old, kind of, in that moment, she's like, “All right,” you know, she took a deep breath, like, “Hey, I gotta get my act together.” We're able to get back kind of together, but we live like maybe an hour from the Pentagon. The car was there. We could take all these people, it's chaos, as you can imagine, it felt like a war zone that was just happening. And we get flooded with calls and, this was back — maybe not as much good telecommunications. We're flooded with calls and people. So because of all the adrenaline, everything that happened that day, we finally had a moment to break down, right? And we're just tearing up and crying and in that moment, just such a sense of gratitude for not only being alive, but for my family, for everything that kind of this nation represents, right? It's just a moment that kind of brought everybody together, and everyone has a 9/11 story. Everyone says, “Here I was, or there I was,” on 9/11. Naviere Walkewicz 7:30 After running across the bridge, like when you saw it coming, obviously you're like, “I need to not be in its path.” Can you remember what in you said, “Turn around and go back.” Was it just your background in the military? Like, “We don't run from we go help.” Can you remember? Dave Harden 7:50 It's hard to remember. I think it's instinct in the moment, you know? But I also think for listeners today — and today is about thinking through all those moments, and saying what are the muscle memories of running into the fire that gets you maybe more prepared for that moment? Naviere Walkewicz 8:10 So you don't freeze. Dave Harden 8:12 So you don't freeze. I think the Academy helps prepare you for those moments. What you go through — through hardships, and your personal hardships and childhood can help you through those moments, right? So many things make up someone's journey and the fabric of their lives, and who makes them themselves. And you don't always know if you'll have the courage in that moment. You don't always know if you'll have kind of what it takes. But I think, along the way, you can have a muscle memory that prepares you for that, right? And so, you know, might be something — you're overloaded with academics at the Academy, right? It could be you're having a personal crisis, you know, could be in your family. It could be external. It could be, literally, you're getting shot at, right? But I think it's kind of transforming the mentality, or a victim mentality, of, “I have to. This is a burden” to “I get to.” It's not saying, “I have to” anymore, It's saying, “You know what? I'm so thankful that I get to,” right? I get to solve this problem, right? “I get to — I'm lucky that I'm here at the Academy, and I have 25 credits, and I gotta take all these classes.” It's hard to think like that. You're like, “Oh, woe is me. This is such a burden. Oh, this is problem at work. Oh, someone died in the family, there's a crisis.” You have cancer, right? Think about all the things that impact our lives, that are hard. And if we're able to say, “You know what…” Start that muscle memory like, “You know what, I get to overcome this, I'm going to learn a lot going through this hardship, through these tough times. It's going to make me different. It's going to make me stronger. It gives me that instinct and that character.” And when you have enough of those muscle memories, then I think what happens in the moment is you're ready. Naviere Walkewicz 10:04 Yeah, you act. Dave Harden 10:05 You act. Naviere Walkewicz 10:06 Did you develop that as a child — that muscle memory, you think? Or what was that like for you then? Dave Harden 10:19 So I was very fortunate. I'll preface this with: I have a family that adopted me, but my early childhood was not a silver spoon. A lot of people look at my life today and they say, “Oh, you were given something. It was easy.” A lot of people feel like that, you know, someone made money. They got inheritance from the family. You know, all those things. Naviere Walkewicz 10:39 Right. The easy way, right? The easy button. Dave Harden 10:41 The easy road. Easy street. Naviere Walkewicz 10:43 Yes, you push the button, and it was… yeah. Dave Harden 10:44 So I would say that there was no yellow brick road to this path. And so I was actually born in Avignon, France. And so my birth father was French, my birth mother was American. I don't speak a lick of French, so that's a side note. And so I wind up born a U.S. citizen. Come back to the U.S. when I was 2 — they split up. And, you know, unfortunately, my birth mother just wasn't well and wasn't able to love me, maybe you think like a traditional family. So I suffered extreme abuse as a child, and so much so that the state had to come in at 6 years old and take me away. My original foster parents told me, you know, I think I knew 12 letters of the alphabet at that time because I wasn't going to school; I wasn't doing the things that most kids kind of get to do. If you look at the history of what I went through in the beginnings of my life, normally, that doesn't lead to success. So a lot of people over the years have asked me, “Dave, what was the difference? How'd you come out of that differently?” And you don't always know in the moment, right? You think about it, you reflect all the things that came through. And for me, as I reflect, there's an unyielding faith in God. And I think, as I reflect — some people call it the universe, and I want to be respectful about how people view the energy that we get to experience and the faith that we have. But for me, what I figured out is, I was able to look up when all hell is breaking loose, when your life seems like it's in shambles, when things are going wrong, how do you have a glimmer of hope? Naviere Walkewicz 12:54 You look up. Dave Harden 12:55 You look up, right? And what does that mean? Looking up changes your gratitude, your centeredness, and it shifts from a “why me” conversation — “Why is all of this happening to me?” Right? “I'm a bad person. I fail. Things are going wrong. Things are blowing up. Someone just died. I'm getting shot at. I have too much academics. I just lost someone close to me in my life.” But if you can go from like, “Why me?” to “What if? What if things get better?” Naviere Walkewicz 13:45 How did you do that as a young boy? I mean, I'm thinking, you know, 9 years old, you know, you're still learning about yourself. You had maybe a foster family that showed you and displayed maybe some love. Is that where you learned to look up, or was it just something in you, and that was just the way that — I know you said faith. Dave Harden 14:03 Yeah, I think it's both. I've had deep analysis on nurture versus nature and I think it's a little bit of both. My foster parents went on to adopt me, and they come from a Depression, kind of post generation, right? And so I think what they were able to give me is enough structure and safety to become the person who I could become. And I think you need that safety and structure to start with, and then I could learn the things about gratitude and self-esteem and love, right? And those were innate with me. Each of us have this creative being, and we want to see it become alive. But if it gets squashed, If we don't believe in ourselves, if we don't look up, then we're just confronted with all the stuff in front of us. All the crap, all the fire, all the burning in our lives, in our businesses and in our workplaces. And I think going through that experience helped me learn to transform that thinking so that we look up and we look beyond. Naviere Walkewicz 15:23 When I'm looking at you right now, you know how, as we age, we have like lifelines on our face? And when I think about people who tend to look down, their face kind of shows it. But what I see in you when I look across right now are the lines that show that you have looked up. I see when you smile, it is so like, etched in your face, like in a way that is like joy. And I really do think you live that way. How do you share that gratitude and what has been innate in you that's been ignited with others? How have you helped others find that, whether while you're a cadet or in business, etc.? Dave Harden 15:57 Yeah, that's a great question. Everyone says I have about 300% more energy than most people. Naviere Walkewicz 16:02 I know, I'm trying to hang. I'm trying to keep up with you here! Dave Harden 16:06 I think that's one way, right, is again, you'll hear me say it over and over again. It's gratitude. Do you wake up in the morning and say, “Hey, what are the three things that I'm just freaking thankful for?” Because it's so easy — you listen to news, it's heavy. It's just, everything's heavy, right? And so I think living a life of gratitude transforms everyone's life and allows you to be a different person, allows you to create those muscle memories that allows you to do something. It's interesting — I get asked a lot of questions, especially having kind of this, you know, successful investment and business career, having flown C-17s, having done AFWERX — I think maybe we'll kind of dive in that a little bit. I've had all these eclectic kind of backgrounds and experiences, and they're like, you know, “How'd that happen? How'd you go from this to this, to this, to this?” And, you know, it's interesting. I think it just winds up, you know, running towards the problem. And I've had people say that over and over again: “You're just a person that, man, I just feel like, you know, you'll always run to the fire.” And so, I think when you do that over and over and over again, then it just transforms the way you think. You're willing to overcome, and hey, “I'll take on this bureaucracy. I'll take on the Air Force and transform it. Naviere Walkewicz 17:26 Is that where Big D came from? Dave Harden 17:28 It is. So are we gonna have a side shuffle here? Alright. We'll have a side shuffle. As you know, we can dive into it more. I had this opportunity, because of the business background and all these — right moment, right place, right time, had the great honor of being able to build from the ground up with a bunch of other amazing, talented people, what's now known as AFWERX. And that wound up being the anchor innovation arm for the Air Force to bring in new technology and transform the way we're doing business as a service. So that was amazing. We did a shark tank called Spark Tank at Mark Cuban, George Steinbrenner in there. Transform the culture, identify innovation superheroes, is what we call it. Naviere Walkewicz 18:19 I love that. Dave Harden 18:20 So, where's your cape? Where are you innovating? How can we go make that happen quicker? And that's what we were able to do. But it was funny when we kind of started, you know, I was like, 30 days — they wanted to facilitate all the four-star generals in the Air Force in this, like, 30-year planning. So I was only supposed to be at the Pentagon for 30 days… Naviere Walkewicz 18:40 And you're a reservist during this, right? Dave Harden 18:42 I'm a reservist during that time — lieutenant colonel reservist. And so I wound up… this turns into four years now of my life. I get sucked back into the five-sided building, which was a great honor. But as you know, it's a lot of like, you know, cyber locks and behind-closed-doors kind of stuff at the Pentagon. Everyone goes to their little room and cubicle, and that's where your magical work happens. So here's this business guy who happens — I liked to wear flight suits as much as I can. Every once in a while they make me wear blues in the Pentagon. So, walking around the five-sided building. Well, as you can imagine, cell phone service is not the best at the Pentagon. So, you can imagine, I'm trying to connect businesses. I'm trying to think about different ways to do stuff, right? So that's not sitting at my desk working on the NIPRNet. Naviere Walkewicz 19:38 There's no magic happening from your seat in the cubicle. Dave Harden 19:40 So, I'm wandering around the halls, and I have to, like, triangulate — “Where the hell am I going to get a cell phone signal?” Might be the courtyard. I've got my hand in the air. If I put aluminum foil on this, you know, the little longer thing. There's one window by the second corridor, you know? So anyhow, that's the exercise. So literally, for like, six months, every month, without fail, someone's pulling me into their office because I'm not following protocol. Naviere Walkewicz 20:14 Oh my goodness. You're like, “Do you know what I'm standing up?” Dave Harden 20:16 Didn't care. They didn't care. They're like, “You're screwing off. You're doing other stuff. You're doing outside business. You're always in the hall. You're never at your office.” You know, “Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,” right? So I just got read the riot act. “Terrible officer not doing the things you're supposed to be doing.” A maverick. So anyhow, eventually all these big things started happening. We're transforming the way the Air Force Association… Naviere Walkewicz 20:49 The light goes bing. Dave Harden 20:51 Right. And, like, these new capabilities, and I'm like, actually connecting people, like, I pull people by their office and say, “You need to walk down to this other corridor. Meet this person.” Because this is the connection we need to get stuff done. Now we're just running around the halls of the Pentagon, either on the phone or shuffling people around, and eventually they're like, “Oh, wow. This is making a difference. Things are happening. And so in that process, I got the call sign Big D, which, on this podcast, could be funny. So we'll keep it PG-13 here on this network. But you know, it was for the deal making. So it's like they knew that big deals were gonna get done with Big D because I was gonna be on the phone, come hell or high water, I was gonna be in the halls of the Pentagon making it happen. Because it was too important. It was too important to get technology quicker out that people needed. Naviere Walkewicz 21:54 Why did you feel that way? Dave Harden 21:55 So many transformative things kind of in my life come back to service. So I remember, I was actually flying in Afghanistan, C-17. I'm sure you know. Afghanistan is a big bowl, so you gotta get over the 24,000-foot mountains, dive in really quickly. And so at the time we would do that with night vision goggles. You try to find a couple little infrared lights in the basin somewhere, coming down really quick and hoping you find them and you're landing in the right spot. And so, pretty intense environment, as you can imagine. And a lot of threats coming in and coming out. So triple-A. Folks, you know, with Toyota pickup trucks with missiles on the back, launching off the shoulders. And so, leaving out of that bowl, we wound up being a target, like sometimes you are. But on this day, as we were kind of turning out, we have kind of a missile warning system that's in the middle and so it starts going off and kinda tells where, in general, it's coming from. But basically, you know maybe it's a false alert, but more than likely not, it's something's coming at you. So what happens next is kind of like super-slow motion, like you're watching a movie, and so it's like, Fourth of July. Because you have a bunch of systems on the plane, so you have flares, and so it's like, boom. So now it's super bright, and you're taking the actions you need and have kind of been trained to do. But there's some additional systems on there. So they have added basically a laser system, and the laser system is trying to find the warhead, mess up the guidance system, because it's looking for your engines, it wants the heat on the engines. So this is all going on but it happens really quick, but it happens really slow when you're in the moment. And so I just remember when it happened, it's super quiet on the flight deck. Because you have load master, you have another pilot, you have the crew. Essentially, you have three seconds between knowing whether you're alive or you're dead. And so you can imagine the moment when all this stuff goes off, and in the back of my mind, it's essentially a three-Mississippi count. So you go “one Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi,” and you're either alive or you're dead. So that quiet moment in between is quite the reflection of life. I'm here with you today, so obviously all the stuff that was supposed to work, worked. And in the reflection of that moment, that technology, which was developed years before, saved my life. And yet, we were stuck and faced a bureaucracy that took five years, 10 years to get technology to the front that had bloated requirements and just outdated acquisition processes. And so I was motivated to say, “We have to do something different to get that technology to the front line, to save lives and the work that people do every day to transform the way they get to do business.” And so that's always been the driving force. It's been my driving force to this day, was that that technology to our nation quicker must be accomplished, and the way you do that is you identify the innovation superheroes inside our service and in our businesses and in our entrepreneurs that can be brought together to bring about that change. Naviere Walkewicz 26:04 So that's really incredible how a moment in time literally had set the stage for your passion. You were leading AFWERX, you got it across the line, and amazing technology has been made available to our warfighters, to our processes. Why did you then — or maybe it's on a grander scale — move into the private sector, where you're actually doing this, still with the same kind of vision of what you're trying to accomplish, but without maybe some of the red tape? Why did you move on from AFWERX? Dave Harden 26:38 That's a great question. So I love this because I love the concept of the airman citizen. I think it's really important, because I went to pilot training. So in pilot training, we're all competing, like, you know, “You gotta be No. 1. You get the plane you want.” You know, all this stuff. A lot of ego flying around, right? And then there's this group, and they were, like, kind of little bit older. Like, “Oh, I'm in this Guard unit, and as soon as we finish pilot training, I'm gonna fly a C-130. I'm gonna fly this...” They already knew what they were gonna fly. I'm like, “How the hell?” I didn't know about the Guard and Reserve. I knew nothing about it, right? Naviere Walkewicz 27:20 Wow OK. That's true. Many people don't know… Dave Harden 27:22 Already in service, right? And it was this amazing discovery. One, they became, like, my best friends. I'm like, these are really cool people. But it was the beginning of this journey. It was like an enlightenment of this airman citizen, like I could still serve our country, right? And so I did wind up going into the Reserve, flying out Charleston, South Carolina, flying C-17s while I did business. So I was able to grow all the stuff I did in business and consult the oil industry and write books and speak around the world and run tech companies while still serving and contributing to the nation. And so I just wound up with a unique skill set — kind of business and military and bringing that all together at a moment in time at the Pentagon. And so that all came together and it was a natural extension. And then say, “OK, we've built this kind of ecosystem. How do we now go on the outside and help cut through the red tape? How do we bring capital. How do we identify the entrepreneurs and take this amazing land and amazing minds that we have and turn them towards our nation's most challenging problems and run towards the fire?” That the nation needs to survive for our children, our grandchildren and the democracy that we hold dear. And so I was grateful for each of those chapters, right? I was grateful for the chapter to build something; I'm grateful for the chapter now in the business world to make a difference. And I see that manifest in different ways. You and I earlier, we're kind of talking a little bit — on the business end there's hardships, there's difficulties, there's fires. And you hear that phrase all the time: “All we do is put out fires all day.” So that's a little bit different context. But sometimes there's bigger fires, you know. I remember we were faced — we lost a $9 million contract. And its people's lives, you know? There are single moms that work for you, and there's, you know, people that you've been loyal to the company for a long time. And sometimes just businesses don't become feasible. So you have a big fire. The landscape transforms. COVID hits. The timing just changes and is off. And so we sat in that moment, and it's emotional, because you're like, “I gotta let 25% of the company off. It's gonna impact families. It's gonna impact lives. And I remember this day, part of our culture was being grateful, being thankful. And you lose track of that because the budget, make payroll, all the all these business things, you know? How's this gonna look? The ego here, right? All these emotions come in, and then taking that moment to take a pause, to look up, to realign, to give thanks, and then to lean into that fire. I remember we kind of gathered up, and I said, “You know what? This is gonna be hard, and people gonna be let go. Can we take a moment just to — there's so many people in here that have stepped up last minute, made things happen, been a part of your life.” And that next hour where people just sat around the table and said, “You know what? John did this for me. Lori did this for me. Man, you know, they stayed up all night and kind of got this proposal done.” Someone's like, “Oh, I needed a surgery and my doctor sucked. They were personally there for me and helped me with that.” It was an hour of gratitude that even in the despair, even in the business environment of having let people go, there was a sense of like culture and gratitude and awareness that doesn't make it easier — you know, you lose your job. It doesn't make some of the fires easier to put out, but we leaned into the fire in a way that helped us get through it from a business perspective. And I always remember that moment, because it really… we just took that step back and it transformed the entire conversation. And so for listeners out there: I say whatever you're going through, you have that same opportunity to take a step back, to have that moment of gratitude, pause and then lean in like hell. Solve that problem. You have an opportunity to really solve what's in front of you, to run into the fire. It might be drastic like 9/11. Like, we're saving somebody's life. But it might be something smaller, but equally as meaningful. Naviere Walkewicz 32:42 I'd like to ask you something because based off of something you said earlier, and I think it was this whole concept of gratitude and having gone through, many hardships in your childhood, in business, etc. How have you been able to stay— and maybe humble is not the right word — but you seem really rooted. It's not about position or title. You seem just really rooted in a humanity and caring about people. Am I right in seeing that? And how do you do that? Dave Harden 33:12 Well, thanks for feeling that energy and then responding to it and asking me that question. At the end of day, it's about relationships and connections. And you're right. That comes from early childhood, right? When you have the experiences that you had, for me, I knew more than anything, that family was important for me. In fact, that was part of my decision, like at the Naval Academy, because it's like, I think I like my time at Naval Academy. I don't know if the Navy would just be a higher negative impact on family. Naviere Walkewicz 33:43 Because you'd be underway for months. Dave Harden 33:45 Right. For a year, or whatever. So I think, imagine making that decision at 17. Because that thought was always there. I think Angie is swinging by for the 30th reunion here at the studio here in a little bit. So I have a beautiful red-headed wife that we've gone through ups and downs, gone through challenges, right? But here we sit at 30 years… Naviere Walkewicz 34:13 Congratulations, that's amazing. Dave Harden 34:14 Yes, thank you so much. It's an inspiration for me, right? Because her parents got married at the Cadet Chapel. A little tie back here to the Air Force Academy. We got married three days after graduation. So, you know, I don't know. Maybe that's cliche, but maybe it's kind of a need and a legacy thing which I lean towards, right? And so my kids inspire me every day. You know my wife inspires me every day. Meeting you and the connections and relationships that I get to get across business, across being in the trenches, being in those fires, forge the relationships, that go across boundaries. And too often times things are transactional. It's like, “Hey, I'm in this position,” and then you have their phone number and their email, and then they change positions, and you never hear from them again. And that's not what life is about. That's not the richness of life. That's not how you inspire people. You inspire people by connecting with them and being thankful for them, right? And so that inspiration comes from my childhood, from seeing death firsthand, from losing people in my life and being able to say, “You know what, if we can transform, if we can pause, if we can look up, right, and see the faith and the ‘what if' and not say, ‘Why is this happening to me? But what can I do with it? What can I do for others? How can I connect in a meaningful way?' you will transform your life, you'll transform your leadership, and you'll transform the people around you, because they'll be inspired to be superheroes in their own right. Naviere Walkewicz 36:03 Well, I certainly believe I could probably foreshadow what you might say in this next one. But I want to ask you this because, you know, there's something about putting into practice what you say, and obviously it has served you well in all facets of your career. What are you doing every day, Dave, to be better, whether it's in leadership, it's in relationships, but what are you doing personally every day to be better? Dave Harden 36:29 You know, I think I have a core philosophy. And you might have heard it before. Can I get better by 1% today? So if you wake up in the morning and you're like, “Can I get better by 1% today?” What does that mean? How do I do that? And I think it starts at the beginning of the day by saying… It's easy to be like, “Oh, I'm running late. My alarm went off. I'm tired. I gotta do laundry. I gotta get this job. I gotta get the kids. You gotta… Stack it up and you're like… You can be overwhelmed. The news. You know, something just happened. Within the first 30 minutes, you're overwhelmed for your day. Your day's done. Naviere Walkewicz 37:16 Right. Go back to bed. Try again. Dave Harden 37:18 It sucks. Why me? Fires are burning all around me. Naviere Walkewicz 37:20 Where do I go? Right. Dave Harden 37:23 So even if you just take a couple minutes and you're just like, “What are the three things that I'm thankful for today?” it recenters your gratitude journey, right? And then throughout the day, I call it the gratitude debrief. And if you're familiar with anything that's like fighter pilots after your mission— what did we learn? And, you know, getting after that, but a lot of people don't have a gratitude debrief. And what I described for you in that business crisis, what I described for you sitting there with your family after — my family after 9/11, it was a gratitude debrief. What went right today? Who did I appreciate that I need to thank? I guarantee if you come at it from that perspective, you're going to see more opportunity. People are going to want to do business with you, because you're the type of person that is grateful, and they want to reach out, they want to network for they want to do that one other thing, right? And when you're in that mental space, when bad things are happening and fires are burning around you, you won't even think for a second “I need to help somebody. I need to do the thing.” And at that moment when it becomes instantaneous, when it's the thing you just do, you know you're centered in that place of gratitude. Naviere Walkewicz 38:55 So Dave, thank you for sharing that — what you're doing every day? What about what some of our listeners, no matter where in their journey they are… You know, we talked about the pause, look up. But what can they be doing every day to be better? Dave Harden 39:08 I think you get back to what we were talking about earlier, which was kind of that stepping into the fire, that leaning in. And I think you know what I've learned, and at the end of the day, what our listeners can take away is, at the end of the day, courage is a choice. I think courage is actually a choice, because you're building all these… I gave you some tools, muscles, and you just don't know what's going to happen in that moment in time. But in that moment in time — there's a great book that I just thought of. It was called Moments of Truth. It's a great book, and it talks a little bit about your brand, your business brand, and it's really built with all these little moments of truth, right? Because it could be your interaction. It could be we came out on the airline today for the 30th reunion So, how did that customer in a certain, you know, interaction? Did they solve my problem? Did they lean in? Did they take care of me? And each of those moments of truth add up to a brand. You, the listeners, have to decide what's their brand going to be. Is it going to be running towards the fire or running away from fires? So whether it's a real fire or proverbial fire, you're going to be ready for that moment. At the end of the day, that's what we believe. Your hardships in life, your Academy experience, your service, your business life, if done correctly, prepare you for and allow you to lead others through. Naviere Walkewicz 40:54 This time together has been… it's inspiring me. I mean, I have just felt the energy and I felt your hardship and how you continue, how you put into practice, your pause, your look up, you know, be grateful. And I want to tell you I'm grateful for you in this time we've had today, because it's been… it really has made a difference, and I'm looking forward to debriefing tonight when I fly home with my son about what went right today. So thank you for that. I think that's really useful. Dave Harden 41:18 Awesome. Thank you so much. Yes, I appreciate it. Naviere Walkewicz 41:20 Absolutely. Well, as our conversation with Dave Harden comes to a close, I'm reminded that leadership is often forged in the fire. Dave's journey from the Pentagon on 9/11 to overcoming adversity in his childhood to pioneering innovation in some of the toughest environments reminds us that true leaders don't run away from the fire. They run toward it. Dave's story reminds us that hardship is inevitable, but gratitude transforms hardship into fuel when you meet your next fire, literally or figuratively. Pause, look up, give thanks and step forward. We know that's how leaders grow in the Long Blue Line, and how you become the kind of person others want to follow anywhere. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Long Blue Leadership. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. Until next time. KEYWORDS Leadership, 9/11, gratitude, innovation, Air Force, personal growth, adversity, private sector, courage, resilience. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
What does leadership look like at the highest levels of service? SUMMARY In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Col. (Ret.) Michael Black '85 discusses his journey from cadet to commanding the White House Communications Agency. He reflects on what it means to be a calm, steady presence in high-pressure environments — and how small daily practices can shape a lifetime of leadership. The full episode is now available. SHARE THIS PODCAST FACEBOOK | LINKEDIN MICHAEL'S LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS Develop a personal leadership philosophy that guides your actions (like Michael's 5F's: Family, Fitness, Flying, Fairness, and Fun). Always be aware that people are watching you and learning from your example, even when you don't realize it. Nurture relationships continuously - they are critical for long-term success and mentorship. Practice empathy and compassion, especially during difficult moments like delivering challenging news Maintain a holistic approach to fitness - physical, mental, and spiritual well-being are interconnected. Take pride in leaving organizations better than you found them and focus on developing future leaders. Be fair and be perceived as fair - understanding different perspectives is crucial to effective leadership. Incorporate fun and balance into your professional life to maintain team morale and personal resilience. Stay connected to your roots and be willing to mentor the next generation, sharing your experiences and lessons learned. Continuously practice self-reflection and ensure you're living up to your core values and leadership principles. CHAPTERS Chapter 1 - 0:00:00 - 0:08:55: Family and Military Roots Michael Black shares his background as a military brat and the educational legacy of his family. Chapter 2 - 0:08:55 - 0:12:10: Delivering a Difficult Notification A profound leadership moment where Black sensitively delivers news of a combat-related death to a staff sergeant's family. Chapter 3 - 0:12:10 - 0:18:40: The 5F Leadership Philosophy Introduction Col. Black explains the origin and core components of his leadership framework: Family, Fitness, Flying, Fairness, and Fun. Chapter 4 - 0:18:40 - 0:25:59: Detailed Exploration of 5F Philosophy In-depth breakdown of each leadership principle, including personal anecdotes and practical applications. Chapter 5 - 0:25:59 - 0:32:21: Family Legacy and Academy Experience Discussion of his son's Air Force Academy journey and the importance of nurturing relationships across generations. Chapter 6 - 0:32:21 - 0:38:36: Mentorship and Relationship Building Michael shares his approach to mentoring cadets and the significance of maintaining long-term professional connections. Chapter 7 - 0:38:36 - 0:40:13: Leadership in Civilian and Nonprofit Sectors Reflection on applying military leadership principles in private and nonprofit environments. Chapter 8 - 0:40:13 - 0:41:28: Personal Reflection and Leadership Advice Final thoughts on leadership, self-improvement, and the importance of continuous personal development. ABOUT COL. BLACK BIO Michael “Mike” B. Black, vice president for Defense, joined the nonprofit Armed Forces Communications and Electronics Association International in July 2022. He is a senior cyber/information technology leader with more than four decades of experience in cyber operations, communications, project/program management, leadership disciplines and organizational development. As AFCEA's vice president for Defense, Col. Black builds strong professional relationships with government, industry and academia partners to position AFCEA International as a leader in the cyber, defense, security, intelligence and related information technology disciplines. Col. Black leads defense operations in support of planning and executing global, large-scale, technically focused, trade shows/conferences supporting Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, Space Operations, Cyber and Homeland Security. Col. Black is focused on providing opportunities for engagement between and among government, industry and academia. Prior to joining AFCEA International, Col. Black served as chief operating officer at Concise Network Solutions for four years, directly supporting the CEO in developing, executing and managing CNS's master business plan. Prior to joining CNS, he served as the COO and chief corporate development officer at JMA Solutions for two and a half years, working in concert with senior executives to lead operations and the planning and execution of strategies. Prior to joining JMA Solutions, he served as the COO at Premier Management Corporation for four years, where he was responsible for day-to-day operations, all business units and the company's profit and loss. Prior to joining the private sector, Col. Black spent 26 years in the U.S. Air Force holding various communications and leadership positions at many levels. He culminated his distinguished military career as a colonel, commander, White House Communications Agency, leading a 1,200-person team of selectively manned military, then-Department of Defense civilian and contract personnel to provide “no fail” telecommunications services for the president, vice president, named successors, first lady, senior White House staff, National Security staff, U.S. Secret Service and the White House Military Office. Col. Black holds a Bachelor of Science in basic science from the U.S. Air Force Academy, where he was a Distinguished Military Graduate. He holds a Master of Science in national resource strategy, with an information operations concentration, from the National Defense University, Industrial College of the Armed Forces; a Master's Degree in military arts and science from the Army Command & General Staff College; and a Master of Arts Degree in management from Webster University. He is a published author, including writing several leadership articles for The New Face of Leadership Magazine as well the thesis Coalition Command, Control, Communication, and Intelligence Systems Interoperability: A Necessity or Wishful Thinking? BIO EXCERPTED FROM AFCEA.ORG CONNECT WITH MICHAEL IG: @chequethemike FB: @michael black LinkedIn: Michael Black CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ted Robertson | Producer: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Guest, Col. (Ret.) Michael Black '85 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz Welcome to Long Blue Leadership, where transformative journeys of Air Force Academy graduates come to life. There are moments in a leader's life that leave a permanent mark. For my guest today, Col. (Ret.) Michael Black, USAFA Class of '85, one such moment came when he was actually sent to deliver news of a combat-related death. It was the first time he'd ever been tasked with that duty, and knew he only had one chance to get it right. As he sat with the widow, Michael found the strength to guide the family through their grief. That part of Michael's story speaks to the depth of his empathy and the calm steadiness that defines him as a leader. We'll explore much more of Michael's journey, from leading the White House Communications team to mentoring cadets at the Academy to daily practices that ground him and the framework that guides him today, what he calls the five Fs of leadership: family, fitness, flying, fairness and fun a guide not only for his life, but for the leaders he inspires. Michael, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Michael Black Naviere, thank you for having me, and thank you for that very kind introduction. I'm so happy to be here, and I'm just thankful for what you guys do, the AOG and putting this together and telling stories. I think this is amazing. So thank you for the opportunity. Naviere Walkewicz Well, we're grateful you're here. You got your silver on. You got your ‘85 Best Alive, you know, I mean, I'm just blown away here. The class crest… Michael Black Yeah, got it all, you know, the crest and the two squadrons that I was in. I'm just excited, back here for our 40th reunion. Yeah. So that's amazing. So fellowship and fun with your classmates, and just seeing the mountains, you know. Getting off the plane and looking west and seeing the mountains and seeing God's creation is just amazing. And then, of course, the Academy in the background, you know, pretty excited. Naviere Walkewicz Wonderful, wonderful. Well, we're going to jump right in. And actually, the topic is a bit sensitive, but I think it's really important, because we know that when we all raise our right hand, some are prepared and they give all. But not everyone has to actually give the news to the family when their loved one is lost, so maybe you can share what that was like. Michael Black Thank you for allowing me to talk about that. You hit the nail on the head when you said you only have one chance to get it right when you're talking to the family. And so I had a young staff sergeant that was deployed down range at the Horn of Africa, and he happened to be a radio operator in a helicopter supporting the Marines. And there was a mid-air collision that happened while he was deployed, and he was one of the people that perished. So the first notification that I had to make was duty status: whereabouts unknown — to say that to the family. And of course, you can think about the range of emotions that are associated with that. They don't know. We don't know. Naviere Walkewicz There's still hope. There's not hope. Michael Black So that was the first day. So going over there with my first sergeant, a medical team, chaplain, you know, that kind of thing, to support us and the family. Naviere Walkewicz And what rank were you at that time? Michael Black So I was a lieutenant colonel. So I was a squadron commander of the 1st Comm Squadron at Langley Air Force Base. And I like to say, you don't get to practice that. You have one time to get it right. At least back then, there was not a lot of training to do that. It doesn't happen that often, and so having to make that notification was a tough thing. It was one of the hardest things, if not the hardest thing, I had to do in the service. Two young boys. He had two sons, and at the time, his spouse was military as well, so I go over there to do that the first day. You can imagine, you know, knocking on the door, right, and I'm in uniform, and just the emotions that they can be going through. So we're sitting on the couch in their house, two young boys. I believe their ages were 3 and 5 at the time, they were very young. And I explained to Michelle what we knew. And again, it's scripted. I can't say more or less than that, because 1) don't know, right? And 2), you just don't want to speculate on anything. And then we're waiting to find out his status. So then I have to go back the next day to make that notification, and you're representing the chief of staff of the United States Air Force, and that's kind of something that's scripted for you. “I'm here on the behalf of the Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force, and I regret to inform you of the untimely death of your spouse.” The part that was even more heartening for me was after I told her, and with the boys sitting, I believe, on either side of me, she said, “And now Col. Black is going to tell you what happened to your dad.” That was a tough thing to do. And I would say it was the hardest thing that I had to do in the Air Force, in my career, and reflect on “you have one chance to get that right.” I believe we got it right, me and my team, but that was tough. Naviere Walkewicz Wow. Have you kept in touch with the family? Michael Black Yes, I keep in touch with Michelle, just from — just a personal because I'm very personal, outgoing, as you know. And so I've kept in touch with Michelle and the boys. But we're forever bonded by that, and I think that's important to stay in touch. And that's kind of one of my things I think we'll get into a little bit later in the conversation, but that's what I do. Naviere Walkewicz Well, it touches, certainly into, I think, that the family aspect of the five Fs, and because it seems like you even take in them as your family. And I'm curious about your family, because when you're going through that, I mean, you have at least a son — you have son, right? Michael Black Yes, and two daughters. Naviere Walkewicz Two daughters. So were you thinking about — did you put on your dad hat in that moment? Michael Black I certainly did put on my dad hat and, and I think that helped in things. And I think all of the training that I got along the way about dealing with tough situations, and being a leader, it helped. But I took it upon myself after that to talk to other commanders. And in fact, my wing commander at the time, Burt Field, Gen. field was a '79 grad, and we talked, and that also brought him and I closer, because he also asked me to brief the other squadron commanders on that process and how I handled that. And I know when — to this day, Gen. Field and I are still very connected, and he's pretty engaged right now with the Air Force Association's birthday and all that. But a great mentor of mine who also helped in dealing with that. But he was extremely supportive and, and I think that had a factor in just how he evaluated me, right, how I handled that situation? Naviere Walkewicz Well, it sounds like you certainly picked up some of those traits of taking care of your people recognizing empathy within processes and sharing it. I'm curious, were you always like this, or did you see some of this emulated from your family? Michael Black No, it's a great question. I am a military brat. My dad was in the Army. My dad went to Tuskegee — it was called Tuskegee Institute at that time. My mom went to Alabama A&M, so two schools in Alabama. They're from a very small towns in Alabama. My dad's from Beatrice, Alabama — which is less than 200 people today — and my mom is from Vredenburgh, Alabama. It's about 15 miles away, and it's even smaller than Beatrice. But they went to the same elementary school and high school, so high school sweethearts, and then they went off to college. And then dad got a direct commission in the Army, the Signal Corps. Well, he started out Medical Service Corps, but getting back to your question, so yes, family with that, and even take a step further back to my grandparents, on both sides of the family, but particularly with my paternal grandparents, they went out and visited the Tuskegee Institute at that time, and they saw the statue of Lifting the Veil of Ignorance there, and they decided at that point that they wanted their kids to go to that school. And so there's seven kids within my dad's family, and six of them went to Tuskegee. Naviere Walkewicz Wow. So I want to fast forward a little bit, and you can certainly share whether it was during the Academy or after graduation, but you have kind of had this great foundation from your family. Let's talk a little bit about the Academy or after-Academy experience, where you had seen additional time where you had grown as a leader. Was there a particular experience that can come to mind, where another shaping of this leadership journey that you've been on? Michael Black Yeah, I think there's multiple throughout my career. I mean, I went to the Army Command and General Staff College for my intermediate professional military education. And there's a story there too. My dad was in the Army, and so I wanted to experience some of the things that my dad did, even though I was Air Force. And so one of my mentors, now-retired Lt. Gen. Harry Raduege, was instrumental in me getting selected for Army Command and General Staff College. And so I went there, and I think that was a big portion of my shaping, although had mentors and folks and coaches in my life leading up to that were, you know, helped shape me, but going to that school… And what I noticed when I got there that the Army was very serious about leadership and leadership philosophy, so much so that we took a class on that where we had to develop a leadership philosophy. And so in taking that class, before the Christmas break, I found out that I was going to be a squadron commander. So I was a major, and I was going to be a squadron commander. And so in that leadership course, I said, “Well, I'm going to go be a squadron commander. I'm going to the fifth combat con group in Georgia. Let me make this philosophy that I'm doing in class be my philosophy, so that when I get there…” And that was really the first time that I thought very serious about, “OK, what is my leadership philosophy?” And I had been a flight commander before, and had people under my tutelage, if you will. But being a squadron commander, you know, being on G series orders. And you know, we know how the military takes the importance of being a commander. And so having that so I did decide to develop my philosophy during that time. And you mentioned the five Fs earlier. And so that was — that became the opportunity to develop that. So family, that's what it was. That's when I developed that — in that course. So family, fitness, flying, fairness and fun — the five Fs. I worked on that when I got there. And so then when I got to take command, I had prepared all of that stuff in this academic environment, and I used it to a T and I briefed the squadron after I took command. I think this is my command philosophy, the five Fs. I subsequently had the opportunity to command two more times after that, another squadron, and then at the White House Communications Agency, which is now wing command equivalent. So had the opportunity to tweak and refine, but the foundation was still the five Fs. And so in doing that, and I can go into a little detail. So you know, family is your immediate family, your your blood family, and that that kind of thing. But family also encompasses your unit, your extended family, you know, and part of that. And so I always tell people you know, your family, you don't want to be the only one at your retirement ceremony because you neglected your family. And I've done many retirement ceremonies. In fact, I've done 25-plus since I retired. Well, that shows you really made no so family is, is important, take care of your family. And I, you know, one of the things I said about that to the folks was if you in your unit, if folks are getting assigned unit, permanent changes, station, PCS to your unit, and they haven't found the place to live in the due time and whatever the house hunting days are, I always gave my folks the option of give them some more time to find a place. They may be looking for schools, I mean looking for a place that just fits the environment that they need. And let's give them that time now, because they're not going to be effective in the organization if they're worried about where they have to live, where their kids are going to go to school and that kind of thing. So take care of all of that, and then get them to work, and they'll be that much more effective because they won't have to worry about where they're living, where the kids are going to school. So take care of your family fitness. You understand physical fitness and what you do and all of that, and I admire all of your accomplishments in that. And so physical fitness in the military kind of goes without saying. You have to maintain certain standards and do that, and do a PT and take a test and that kind of thing. But fitness is more than just physical fitness. It's spiritual and mental fitness. Now I would never be one to tell somebody this is how you need to nurture your spiritual and mental fitness. I think that's personal. But if your spiritual mental fitness is not being nourished, you're not going to be doing yourself any good, your team any good. And honestly, you would be able to tell if an individual is struggling with their spiritual or mental fitness, particularly as a leader and just kind of looking and observing characteristics and the behavior of folks. So I basically told my team, I want you to do whatever it takes to nurture your spiritual and mental fitness, whatever you need to do — if it's meditating, if it's praying, if it's walking, whatever is personal to you, but make sure that it's nurtured. But I also told my folks that if you think my spiritual fitness and mental fitness is out of balance, I want you to tell me, because I might have blinders on. I could be focused on things, just like they could be focused on things, and I would tell them. And I think folks really appreciated the candor and the openness of the leader, the commander, you know, saying that, yes, I want you to tell me if you think my spiritual mental fitness is, you know, is out of balance. Naviere Walkewicz Did you ever have anyone tell you that? Michael Black I did. I had strong relationships with my first sergeant, or my command sergeant major, the senior enlisted adviser. So we were, you know, we're hand-in-hand and all the places I was at. And so, yes, I've had them. I've had my wife tell me that. So I think that's important. I just — like I said, you can easily have blinders on and maybe just not see that or have blind spots. And speaking of that, I've written a leadership article on blind spots. I've kind of studied that and understand that. Flying — at the time the primary mission of the Air Force was flying. And so I'd always say, “What is your role in supporting the primary mission, or what is our role in supporting the primary mission of the Air Force?” So make sure you understand that. As a communicator, how do you contribute to the primary mission, or as a logistician, or as information management? But understand what your role is in the primary mission of the Air Force. Fairness, as a leader — it is so important for the leader to be fair, right? It can affect good order and discipline if you're not fair, but equally important is to be perceived as being fair. So I could think I'm being fair, I could think that I'm being fair, but if the perception of the unit, the team, is that I'm not being fair, that's just as detrimental to the mission as actually not being fair. And so I think perceptions are important, and you need to understand that. You need to be aware of the perceptions; you need to be ready to receive the information and the feedback from your team on that. And so I stress the importance of also the perception people have different management. I could be looking at something over there, and I say, “OK, yeah, sky is blue over there,” but somebody's looking at it from a different you know, they may see a touch of some clouds in there, and so they see some light in there, and from their vantage point. And it's just like that in life: Respect everybody's vantage point in things. And so that was the fairness aspect. Then finally, fun. I'm a person that likes to have fun. Naviere Walkewicz You are?! Michael Black Yes, I am. I'm a person that loves to have fun. And so for me, I grew up playing sports. And so I played sports throughout my Air Force career. So that was kind of one of the things I did for fun, intramurals. Naviere Walkewicz What was your favorite sport? Michael Black My favorite sport was baseball growing up. I mean, I dreamed about trying to play in the Major Leagues and that kind of stuff. And I played on a lot of baseball teams growing up, and then when I got into the service, played softball, and I played competitive softball. Back in the day, they have base softball teams, and so you would, you know, try out for the team, and I would try out, and I played on base team at probably at least four or five bases that I was at. So I was, these are my own words: I was good. So I played and was very competitive in intramurals. That's another way to bring your team together — camaraderie. They see the boss out there playing. And I always would tell folks that on the squadron team: They're not playing me because I'm the commander. They're playing me because I'm good. I can contribute to the wins in a game. But so it's very competitive. I wasn't a win at all costs, but it wasn't fun to lose. So being competitive and fun. So that's one of the things I did for fun. I also follow professional sports. San Antonio Spurs is my basketball team; Washington Commanders, my football team. So I would go to those events, those games, those contests and stuff like that. Music, concerts, still do that kind of stuff with my kids and my family incorporate fun into — so it's not all work and no play. I think you do yourself justice by, winding down relaxing a little bit and having fun and that kind of thing. And so I encourage my team to do that. Wasn't gonna tell people what they needed to do for fun. I think that's personal, but having fun is important and it helps strike that balance. So that's really the five Fs. And I carried that, as I said, every time I command, every time I've, you know, unit that I've been associated with, particularly after the 2000 graduation from Army Command and Staff College. And I still carry that five Fs today And incidentally, I think the if you bump into somebody who was in one of my units, they're going to remember the five Fs, or some portion of it. In fact, I have a couple mentees that commanded after me, and they adopted the five Fs as their command philosophy. And that's kind of something that's very satisfying as a leader to have somebody adopt your leadership style. They think that it was good for them while they were in the unit. And it's very flattering to see that afterwards. I mean, so much so that I've had people that were in my unit, and then they got assigned to one of my mentee's unit, and they would call me up and they'd say, “Hey, Col. Black, you know, Col. Packler says his command philosophy is the five Fs.” Yeah, I said Marc was in my unit at Langley, and he probably felt that. But that's, that's a true story. Naviere Walkewicz That's a legacy, right there; that's wonderful. Well, speaking of legacy, you have a son that's also a graduate. So talk about that. I mean, you were expected to go to college. It wasn't an if, it was where? How about your children? Was that kind of the expectation? Michael Black So my wife is a college graduate. She's a nurse as well. And so we preached education throughout. And just as an aside, shout out to my wife, who just completed her Ph.D. Naviere Walkewicz Wow, congratulations! Michael Black Yes. Wilda Black, last week, in doing that. And so between my family, my immediate family — so my wife, and my two daughters and my son, there are 15 degrees between us. Naviere Walkewicz And you? Michael Black And me. So five us, there are 15 degrees. My wife has two master's, a bachelor's and now a Ph.D. My oldest daughter has a bachelor's and two master's. My son has a bachelor's and a master's. My younger daughter has a bachelor's and a master's, and I have a bachelor's and three master's degrees. So I think that adds up to 15. Naviere Walkewicz I lost count. Social sciences major here. Michael Black So yes, education. And so my son — he really liked quality things, likes quality things growing up. And so he was looking at schools and researching and looking at the Ivy League, some of the Ivy League schools, and some other schools that, you know, had strong reputations. I purposely did not push the Air Force Academy to him because I didn't want him to go for the wrong reasons. I didn't want him to go because I went there and that kind of thing. But late in the game, you know, in his summer, going into his senior year of high school, he came to me and said, “Hey…” and I'm paraphrasing a little bit, “Dad, you know, your alma mater is pretty good, you know, pretty, you know, pretty has a strong reputation.” And I said, “Yeah, you know, you know, strong academic curriculum and everything else there.” So that summer he said, “Well, I'm thinking I might want to go there.” And I'm thinking to myself, “That's a little bit late in the game, like the summer going into senior year.” Naviere Walkewicz Did you recruit your mom again? Michael Black Mom got involved. And then I think you know Carolyn Benyshek. So Carolyn was the director of admissions. I reached out to her and just said, “Hey, I got my son that's interested.” They were actually coming to Baltimore, I believe, for a… Naviere Walkewicz The Falcon Experience. Right. Michael Black And so we went to see her, and I'll just kind of say the rest is history. Through her help and guidance, through my son's qualifications — he was able to get in. He went to the Prep School, which is great, and I just want to give a shout out to the Prep School for that. I did not attend the Prep School, but I saw the value of my son going to the Prep School and then coming to the Academy. So I just to this day, thankful for our Prep School and how they prepare folks. Naviere Walkewicz We feel similarly about that. Michael Black So, yeah. So he went. And so, of course, a proud dad, right? Your son following in your footsteps, and that kind of thing. So Clinton, Clinton Black is in the Space Force now, and he's assigned to Vandenberg. But my son, he was a soccer player growing up, played a lot of competitive soccer, came here and decided that he wanted to do Wings of Blue, and so he was on Wings of Blue parachute team. And the neat thing about that is that the jump wings that my son wears are the jump wings that my dad earned at Airborne School in 1964, '65 — sometime in the early ‘60s. And so my dad was still living at the time and so he was able to come out here and pin the wings on Clinton. So it skipped a generation because I didn't jump or anything. But my son jumped, and he has mid-500 number of jumps that he's had. And so my dad was able to see him jump, and that was even though Airborne is a teeny bit different than free fall, but still, you know, parachuting, and all of that. So getting to see Clinton excel and do that and see him jump into the stadium, and that kind of thing. He jumped with some of the former Navy SEALs in the X Games, you know, in the mountains. So that was just a proud parent moment. Naviere Walkewicz Wow. That is very exciting. And so, through all of these experiences that you had, I keep wanting to go back to the five Fs .yYu had mentioned earlier that you did some refinement to it. So where you are now, how are you using them? How have they been refined? I mean, flying. What is that? Michael Black So, I asked people to take a little bit of a leap in that, understand where it came from, in my 5s but that aspect refers to the mission, right? And so the Air Force mission has evolved to include space and that kind of thing. But even on the private side, the civilian side, I still use the five F's. And so the flying aspect just refers to the mission, or whatever the mission of your organization is. And so there was some refinement as we brought in space into our mission, but it really reflected on the mission. And so I had different AFSCs that worked for me in in the different units that I was at, and also different services. And so understanding the service aspect of things also was something that I had to take into consideration as far as keeping and refining that, at the White House Communications Agency, about 1,200 military — more Army than Air Force, more Air Force than Navy, more Navy than Marine Corps, and more Marine Corps than Coast Guard. And so being an Air Force commander of a joint unit that had more Army folks in it, you have to understand that lingo, and be able to speak cool and that kind of thing. Dad loved that. And so going to the Army Command General Staff College, and, getting some of that philosophy and understanding that. And then I went to what's now called the Eisenhower School, now ICAF, the Industrial College of the Armed Forces, which is another joint school. And so being around that helped me in those aspects. But really applying that throughout and after I retired, I did 10 years in the private sector with a couple of different small businesses that were government contracted focused, providing professional services, but still, as the chief operating officer of each one of those, it's a pretty high leadership position within the company and so I talked about the five Fs in some terms that my team could understand that, and so still apply that. And then now, with three years working for the nonprofit, the AFCEA organization, where we bring government, industry and academia together to do IT, cyber kind of things, machine learning, artificial intelligence — I still have that philosophy to buy that and what I do, I think it's something that's applicable across the board, not just military. At least I've made it applicable. Naviere Walkewicz I was just gonna ask that, because talk about the private sector and — some of our listeners, they take off the uniform, but they still have that foundation of the military, but they're working with people who maybe don't have that foundation of the military. So how did you translate that in a way that they could feel that same foundation, even though they hadn't gone through a military family or through the Air Force Academy? Michael Black Yeah, no, that's a great question, Naviere. And I think, as a leader, you have to be aware of that. You have to be aware of your team and their background and their experiences. You also you have to speak their lingo, right? I mean, I can't talk just Air Force or military lingo. We talk a lot in acronyms. Naviere Walkewicz Like AFCEA. And I'm sure many know it but would you mind spelling it out? Michael Black Armed Forces Communications Electronics Association. And even though we have that we are more than the armed forces now, so we really are known by just AFCEA, even though that's what that acronym stands for. So I mean, I work with Homeland Security, VA and that kind of thing. But to your point, getting folks to understand where I'm coming from, and I need to understand where they're coming from, you have to take the time, put in the work to do that, so that you can communicate with your folks, and so that they understand where you're coming from, and also, so that they feel valued, right? That you understand where they're coming from. And I think all of that is important. And I tried to make sure that I did that, and I had coaches, mentors and sponsors along the way. So I learned when some of my mentors transition from the military time, and so when they went to go work in the private sector, I still lean on them. “OK, how did you make this transition? And what is it about? And what are the similarities and what are the differences? What do I need to consider in doing that?” And I'm thankful, and that goes back to one key point that I want to make about relationships and nurturing that relationship. I mentioned Gen. Field, worked for him in the early 2000s. But here we are, 2025, and he's in my contacts, he will take my call, he will respond to a text, and vice versa. You know, building that relationship. And so he's with a nonprofit now, and so I still stay in touch with him. The director of the White House Military Office was a Navy admiral that I worked for when I was at the White House. He is now the president and CEO of the United States Naval Institute — Adm. Spicer. You know, 20-something, 15 years ago, worked for him and now we're working together on a big conference. But those relationships are important in nurturing those relationships. And I learned about nurturing from my family. You know, my grandparents, who did that. My grandfather was a farmer. He had to nurture his crops for them to produce. So the same thing, analogy applies in relationships; you have to nurture that relationship. And you know, it circled all the way back to, you know, our 40-year reunion now, and my classmates that are here and nurturing those relationships with those classmates over the years is important to me. I'm the connector within my class, or the nucleus. I mean, those are two nicknames that my classmates have given me: the Col. Connector and Nucleus, and I embrace those. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, that's wonderful. I know that you also mentor cadets. And I think my question for you, from the aspect of some of our listeners, is, did you seek out the cadets? Did they seek you out? How does that mentorship relationship start? Because you talked about how, like, for example, Gen. Field, you had that relationship years ago. That's kind of carried through. But how do you know when that mentorship is beginning? Michael Black I think both of those aspects, as you mentioned. Do they seek that? There are cadets that seek that based upon just what they've experienced and what they've learned. And then some of the cadets know people that I know, and so they've been referred to me, and all that. Some were — like their parents, I worked with their parents. I mean, particularly in the Class of 2023 there are three young ladies that I mentored in the Class of 2023 one whose father worked with me on the White House Communications Agency, one whose mother babysat my kids OK. And then one who's ROTC instructor in junior in high school was my first sergeant. So in those three instances, I was connected to those folks through relationship with either their parents or somebody that worked for me and that that kind of thing. And that was a neat thing to, you know, to be here. I did the march back with those young ladies, and then I connected those three young ladies who did not know each other at the march back, when we got back on the Terrazzo, I found all three of them and explained my relationship with each of them. And they were able to be connected throughout and two of them I actually commissioned, So that was really, really nice. And so, you know, seeking mentorship is, well, mentorship has just been important to me. I benefited from mentorship, and I want to return that favor. I am the chairman of the Air Force Cadet Officer Mentor Association, AFCOMA, whose foundation is mentorship, fellowship and scholarship, and so I'm passionate about mentorship and doing that. I've seen the benefits of it. People did it for me, and I think you can shorten the learning curve. I think you can just help folks along the way. So I'm very passionate about that. Naviere Walkewicz Well, this has been amazing. I think there's two questions I have left for you. The first one being — and I think we've learned a lot about this along the way — but if you were to summarize, what is something you are doing every day to be better as a leader? Michael Black I think every day I take a deep look inside myself, and am I living and breathing my core values? And what am I doing to help the next generation? You know, trying to put that on my schedule, on my radar, that's important to me. And whether I'm at work with AFCEA, whether I'm out here at my 40th reunion, whether I'm on vacation, I always take the time to mentor folks and pass on that. I think that's something that's passionate for me. You mentioned, when we talked about the retirement ceremonies. I mean, I've done 20-plus since I retired. In fact, I have one in November, but it will be my 27th retirement ceremony since I retired. And those things are important to me. And so I reflect, I try to keep my fitness — my physical, spiritual and mental fitness, in balance every day so that I can be effective and operate at a peak performance at the drop of the hat. You know, being ready. And so that's important to me. So there's some self-analysis, and I do live and breathe the five F's. I think that's important. And I think I've proven to myself that that is something that is relatable, not only to my time in the military, but my time in the private sector, and now my time in a nonprofit. And I just continue to do that so self-reflection and really practicing particularly the fitness aspect of the five Fs. Naviere Walkewicz Wow, that's outstanding. And then you probably share this with your mentees. But what is something that you would help our aspiring leaders — those who are already in leadership roles in any facet of it — but what is something that they can do today so that they will be more effective as a leader? Michael Black So I think being aware that people are watching you and your actions. Even when you think that somebody is not watching, they are watching. And so they are trying to learn what to do next, and to be aware of that. And so I think, again, that goes with what you asked me first: What do I do every day. But also being aware of that, so that you can be that example to folks. And then take the time, have some pride in leaving the organization better than it was when you got there. I mean, it's a cliche, but I think I take a lot of pride in that. And then, when the team does good, everybody does good, so you shouldn't necessarily be out there for any kind of glory. That's going to come. But do it for the right reasons. And provide… give the people the tools, the resources and the environment to be successful. And in… I just take satisfaction when I see one of my mentees get squadron command, go do something like the current commander of the White House Communications Agency, Col. Kevin Childs. He was a captain and a major in the organization when I was there. Nothing makes me happier than to see my mentees excel. And then, in this particular instance, he's holding a job that I had, and we still talk. I mean, he had me come out there to speak to the unit about a month ago. And those things give me a lot of pride and satisfaction and confirmation that I am doing the right thing. And so I'm excited about that. Naviere Walkewicz Well, I can say, from the time that I met you a few years ago, you are living what your five Fs. I see it every time you help champion others. Every time I'm around you I'm energized. So this has been a true joy. Has there been anything that I haven't asked you that you would like to share with our listeners? Michael Black Well, I do want to say personally, thank you to you for all that you do and what the association is doing here. This Long Blue conversation, Long Blue Line — I think this is important to share. There's a Class of 1970 that's in the hotel with us, and I don't know, really, any of those folks, but when I see them walking around with their red hat on — that was their color — and I think about, “OK, 15 years before me.” And so I'm 62. These guys are, if I did the public math, right, 77, 78, maybe even older, depending upon what they did, and still out there doing things, and some of them here with their spouses and that kind of thing. I was just talking to one of the classmates this morning, I said, “You know, I wonder if we're going to be like this when our 55th reunion is,” and they were walking around, and most were in good health and able to do things. So that gives a lot of pride. But, what you're doing, what the rest of the folks here are doing, I think this is amazing. I love the new building, the studio that we're in. This is my first time in the new building, so I'm thankful for this opportunity, and just excited about what you guys do. Naviere Walkewicz Well, thank you so much for that. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on Long Blue Leadership. Michael Black Well, I appreciate it. It's been an honor, and I'm glad you guys timed this for my '85 Best Alive reunion and in the new studio. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, wonderful. Well, as we bring today's conversation to a close, Michael left a reminder for us that stands to me. As a leader, you're always on, you're always being watched. You know your steady presence and deep empathy were forged in life's hardest moments, from guiding a young family through unimaginable loss to breaking the barriers at the highest levels of service to mentoring cadets who will carry forward the legacy of leadership. And then there's that framework he lived by, the five Fs of leadership. It is practical as it is powerful, family, fitness, flying mission, fairness and fun, each one a reminder that leadership is about balance grounding and the courage to keep perspective no matter the challenge. His story reminds us that true leaders create more leaders, and when we anchor ourselves in purpose, faith and these five Fs, we leave behind a legacy that lasts. Thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. I'm Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz. Until next time. KEYWORDS Michael Black, Air Force leadership, 5F leadership philosophy, military mentorship, leadership development, combat communication, White House Communications, Space Force, veteran leadership, empathetic leadership, military career progression, leadership principles, professional growth, organizational effectiveness, cadet mentoring, military communication strategy, leadership resilience, Air Force Academy graduate, leadership philosophy, team building, professional relationships. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
As a U.S. Air Force Academy cadet, now-Capt. Garrett “Kap” Kauppila '19 experienced a life-changing moment involving his older brother. SUMMARY That trial taught him success doesn't involve rank — it's about being present, showing gratitude and supporting others. Hear his powerful story on Long Blue Leadership. Listen today and be a better leader tomorrow! SHARE THIS PODCAST FACEBOOK | LINKEDIN "KAP'S" LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS Never take moments with loved ones for granted - cherish every interaction. Treat everyone with equal respect, regardless of rank or position. Find your authentic leadership style - don't try to imitate others. Root yourself in gratitude to increase your overall happiness. Fill your own "glass" first before trying to pour into others - self-care is crucial. Wake up early and accomplish tasks to get ahead of your day. Pursue what truly matters to you, not what others expect. Be willing to invest in yourself and sometimes work for free to prove your value. Ask "why" to understand the root cause of people's challenges and needs. Leadership is about showing genuine care, being consistent, and helping others increase their opportunities. CHAPTERS 00:00: A Life-Changing Moment 01:04: Lessons from Adversity 08:30: The Importance of Gratitude 11:07: Finding Purpose in Leadership 11:28: The Journey to Teaching 17:57: Building Authentic Relationships 24:50: The Power of Self-Discovery 33:47: Investing in Yourself ABOUT CAPTAIN KAUPPILA BIO Capt. Garrett “Kap” Kauppila '19 is a graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, where he distinguished himself both academically and athletically. A native of Rocklin, California, he played defensive back for the Falcons and maintained strong academic performance throughout his time at the Academy. After graduation, Capt. Kauppila has served in the Air Force in various capacities, including as an instructor. His leadership approach is informed by both the discipline of his military career and his commitment to continual self‑improvement. One of the pivotal moments in Capt. Kauppila's life was when his older brother, Kyle, suffered a near‑fatal motorcycle accident leading to a stroke. During that time, Garrett balanced intense emotional and physical challenges—on top of his duties and studies—taking time off, helping with his brother's care, and eventually returning to finish strong at the Academy with a 3.85 GPA. This period deeply shaped his philosophy of leadership: the idea of the “glacier theory,” which emphasizes looking beneath the surface to understand people's motivations and struggles, and recognizing that many uphill battles are won by small, consistent adjustments. CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Guest, Capt. Garrett "Cap" Kaupilla '19 | Host, Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz As a cadet, Kap had just began his first season as a defensive starter for Air Force football when his world was turned upside down by a crucible moment. Capt. Garrett Kauppila Sept. 17, 2017, will forever stay with my family. I ended up getting a call that my brother, that he's not breathing, and it appears that he's no longer with us. I had about 45 minutes to an hour window where I thought that was completely the case. Again, the last I heard he was evacced on a helicopter. He got in a motorcycle crash and didn't know the extent of the details. Was in the Sierra foothills in northern California, and that's all I knew. That changed the trajectory of our entire lives. Naviere Walkewicz My guest today is Capt. Garrett “Kap” Kauppila, United States Air Force Academy Class of 2019 — a man whose leadership journey was shaped in a way few of us can imagine. Kap learned about the fragility of life, the danger of taking even a single conversation for granted, and the importance of showing up with passion and gratitude every day. That perspective now defines Kap as a leader and as a mentor to our cadets at the Air Force Academy. In this episode, he shares the lessons learned in the hardest of circumstances, the power of authenticity, the discipline of not taking life's moments for granted, and the conviction that true leadership begins with respect for others, no matter their title nor rank. So stay with us, because Kap's story is more than a testimony of persistence and staying power. It's a call to live and lead with purpose. Kap, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Capt. Garrett Kauppila Thank you very much. Naviere Walkewicz We're so excited to have you. We want to go right to the moment your brother was in a motorcycle crash. Tell us about it. Capt. Garrett Kauppila Yeah. So, Sept. 17, 2017, I ended up getting a call that my brother was dead. That was the simple phone call — that he's not breathing and it appears that he's no longer with us. I had about 45 minutes to an hour window where I thought that was completely the case. Pretty surreal moment. You know, I can't say that I remember every detail of that feeling, but time had passed. I was trying to call people and figure out who could be there, who could be around. My uncle was the first one to arrive at the hospital. And again, the last I heard he was lifeline evacced in a helicopter. He got in a motorcycle crash. They didn't know the extent of the details. He was in the Sierra foothills in northern California, and that's all I knew. Lifeline evacced, unconscious, not breathing. He ended up surviving. He woke up in the hospital. My uncle was there. I end up getting a phone call, and I got the chance to speak to my brother on the phone, and I talked to him, and at first, I mean, I'm just in panic, you know? “Oh my God, he's calling. He's actually alive. Oh my gosh.” I got to get on the phone with him, and he seemed normal, beyond normal. And I had this realization that results matter less than expectations sometimes. If I expected that he was alive, I don't, they would have the same relief. But because I had the thought that he wasn't, that feeling will live within me forever. So, you know, I get the chance, we're talking on the phone. He's actually telling me about my game, and he was so excited to watch him play. Ask him about his day and his accident, what happened. He had no idea, right? When traumatic things happen in your life, sometimes it creates just a blackout. Even before, he didn't remember, you know, sometime before the accident happened. So he couldn't tell you what happened, how it happened, any of those details. But we went back and forth, kind of talking and exchanging a couple laughs, in fact. And I actually got a phone call then from Coach Calhoun who was kind enough to reach out to me just to tell me that, “Hey, you know, Kap, if there's anything we can do, I know there's a lot going on.” When he called me on the phone, it's not typical for a player to just get a rogue phone call from the head coach. So in that moment, I'm on the phone with my brother, we're laughing, we're enjoying time. It feels normal for all intents and purposes. I think I took it for granted. I think you go from this feeling that he is not with me to he is completely normal, and that dichotomy, that strong polarization of feeling that I had led to, I guess, complacency. I took him for granted in that moment, I perceived, and, you know, if I could have gone back, I never would have answered the phone call. I appreciate and love Coach Calhoun for calling me, but I just would have soaked in that moment with him. And I didn't even think twice, like, “Oh yeah, Kyle, Kyle, I'll call you right back.” I called my brother's name. “I'll call you right back.” He's “OK, no worries. Just call me back. Cool.” Hung up, you know, answer the phone with Coach Calhoun. He was so lovely, just supportive, just saying, “Hey, we're all here for you. Anything you need, just let us know. You, your family. Anything.” You know, wonderful. I go to call my brother back. OK. “Hey. You know, he's asleep.” “OK, no worries.” You know, it's been a long day. He's exhausted. Little did I know that that was the last conversation that I would have with him for a year. He had a stroke. He then was induced into a coma. My brother was in a coma, for, if I remember, right — I don't remember if it was a day, two days, it was a couple of days, and that was the last I spoke to him. And then it was, is he gonna survive? And I just hung up the phone. I did not say “I love you,” which is something I always think that I say to my loved ones, and I didn't say it in that moment, and I'll forever regret that, because I never knew if I'd say it again. And so that was very, very difficult. I was here at the Air Force Academy now, and I was, you know, I guess I was ecstatic after my first start, preparing for my second. And then life came at me quickly. It was, “What am I… I need to go home. I need to be gone.” Process the paperwork for administrative turn back, you know, thankful for people in my life that helped support me in that, namely, Col. Harding, Coach Calhoun, were pivotal. Also Col. Pendry was pivotal in that process for me. But we processed that paperwork and then I called my parents. I'm like, “Hey, I'm coming home. That's what we're doing?” My parents said, “He can't do anything here. He's…” for lack of better word, I hate this term, but he was vegetative. There was no movement, no speaking, there was nothing. So there was nothing I could necessarily do to support them in that exact moment. So my parents were like, “Hey, continue your dreams. That's what he'd want for you right now.” So that's what I did. And I spent the next couple of days still trying to exist and be normal. You know, it was actually near prog, you know, tests are ramping up. I'm pulling all-nighters. I can't sleep. I don't know how he's doing. We end up playing a game the next Saturday against San Diego State, who's actually ranked No. 22 in the country at the time. And it was at home. I dedicated that game, you know, I remember posting something on my Instagram saying, “This game is for my brother, with my brothers.” And so it was kind of that moment I realized that it's OK to play for the name on the front of the jersey and the name on the back of the jersey — both matter. And I'm really thankful we have our names on the back of jersey, because at the end of the day, that's part of the reason we do what we do. It's part of what keeps us motivated. And in that game, things are going up and down. The game was crazy. It was a monsoon. We had a two-hour delay. My parents are watching from the hospital bed, in fact, and I end up blocking a punt in the fourth quarter. And on that play, I snapped my collar bone clean in half and I thought, “OK, maybe I'm just being weak. Let me keep going. I'll keep playing. Try to tough it out.” I kind of play the next series. In fact, I do something that harms our team. I'm not fully there. I'm in a lot of pain. I can't really tackle the right way. Ended up coming to the sideline and I remember telling the coaches that are the medical trainers, I was like, “Hey, I snapped my collarbone.” But he was, “OK, don't be dramatic.” He knows what that looks like when people traditionally do that. He felt under my shoulder pad and was like, “Oh my God!” We're talking nearly compound, like the corner of my bone is up in my trap situation. That moment, life was like, “All right, time to go home.” You know, call it what you want. Call it bigger purpose, whatever that may look like. It was time for me to go home. It was a difficult time. It was a very, very difficult time. And I couldn't be more thankful to have had the opportunity to go home and handle what I needed to handle. Sometimes nothing makes sense until the bones are right. Not to make that pun, right — the bones are right. My collarbone had everything to do with the core of my family. There's no way I could have succeeded in my life as a cadet… when the big things are wrong, none of the little stuff is gonna matter. So had that opportunity. You know, I became my brother's, his word, not mine — he called me his parrot because I knew him so well that I knew what he was thinking and feeling. He didn't speak, my brother, when he got out of the coma. They didn't know if he would speak again. He didn't speak, in fact, until the next the next spring, so not quite a year, but it still wasn't conversational at that point in time. So I was his parrot, as he would say. Yeah, not his parent. My older brother would never let me claim that title. But yeah, I was his words. People would look at him and ask him a question, and he would look at me and give me a demeanor, and I was like, “You know, here's what's going on, here's what he's feeling, thinking, etc.” He doesn't have memory of those about three months of his life, which is pretty surreal to think. So that was a moment that turned my world upside down. Naviere Walkewicz Yes. I mean, literally, I just, I'm thinking through all of that you shared. It was a series of things that happened. I mean, my goodness, I guess the first question that comes to my mind as I was listening to you and soaking in that story is, how did you change in that moment? Because you went on a phone call, from being on a high to a low, complacent to like — what literally changed in you because of this? Capt. Garrett Kauppila Yeah, the moment that I realized that could be the last conversation I ever had with my brother, I didn't say I love you — that made me never take another moment for granted. And it's the littlest things in life that it's so easy to take for granted. And that's a cliche statement, but genuinely, I don't take for granted the ability to use my right hand. I don't take for granted ability to write my name. My brother can't use his right hand, right? He's my older brother. He turns 30 here in a couple weeks. Actually, he's still working on reading and writing. Those are things we take for granted every single day that I no longer do, and I hate that it came at his expense. I don't believe everything in the world has to happen for a reason. I don't think that he had to go through this at his expense for me to learn these lessons, but I know that I can find a reason for why everything happened, right? I can take a positive away from things about our relationship, about our family, but I don't believe it had to happen at his expense. It happened to happen at his expense. So with that, we have to take in our sphere of influence what is now in my control, something I talk to cadets about all the time. There's a lot of things happening in life. There's a lot of things happening around you that aren't necessarily what you wanted. They're not in your control either. But the reality is, where are you at now? Where are your two feet? And how can you come to play? What can you do with your present resources, your tools, your current situation? And so in those moments, I went home, and my mom would always tell me the Air Force Academy impacted me. I didn't realize it, but in her eyes, my ability to come home and step into the figure that I became for my family in that role, while I didn't feel like it was in shambles, unfortunately, after my brother's accident, a couple weeks later, my grandfather passed to a heart attack. It was just like one thing after the next, between his accident, my injury, and then my grandfather passing. My dad was with his father, now I was with my brother. My mom is trying to provide for our family and still make sure our house doesn't get foreclosed, while also trying to support all of us. And so she's always appreciative of my presence and being able to do that. I'm always thankful that the Air Force Academy supported me in being able to do that, because those moments, I will say, stay with me for the rest of my life, and I never would have been the man that I am if I hadn't had those experiences with him. He then proceeded to live with me for three years in Los Angeles. My brother and I are very, very close. So, again, it happened at his expense and I'll never be grateful for the fact that it took that experience for me to learn these things. So I asked for everybody to hear that story, or hear others like it, and try not to take the loved ones, the people in their life for granted, no matter how big or how small the moment they feel. But also take for granted the ability to do the littlethings you do in your life. Naviere Walkewicz Talk me through — how did you end up at the Air Force Academy now as one of the management instructors? Capt. Garrett Kauppila Yeah, so the GSP slot was with the intention of — the department releases you from your assignment. You do grad school, and I would do one operational assignment, intervening tour, as they like to call it, and then come back to the Academy to teach. Naviere Walkewicz Talk about when you knew that this was your passion — teaching. Capt. Garrett Kauppila Yeah, that started long before. It didn't happen when I was here. I had a teacher that greatly influenced me. His name was Mark Hardy. He was my AP microeconomics teacher in high school. As a 17-year-old, I had never had someone that influenced me so much in terms of, just like the charisma that he had, the consistency, the man that he is every single day. It inspired me to want to be the same for other people's lives. And I think it's easy to not appreciate that, the weight that someone can have, especially as a teacher, right at the high school level, how many lives it's actually impacted. And he had like 240 students that year. He's been there for decades, right? Naviere Walkewicz And he still made that influence on you, where you felt a connection. Capt. Garrett Kauppila Yeah, 100%. And I remember, every single day I came into the classroom, he had music on. He would shake your hand and he knew all of our names. He'd have us all switch seats. Ask my students — to this day, that is still what I do. And every single time there's test, I play The Final Countdown. That came from Mr. Hardy. So, that's my thing. I make them all move seats, know each other, know each other's names. I know all their names on Day 1 when they show up. It really freaks them out at first, but I think it's something special. It says you care. I know in life, people do not care about what you know unless they know how much you care. Another cliche, but my way of doing that is by the first day of class, I shake all their hands and say hello to them by name. They're like, “Have we met?” I'm like, “No, we have, not, but now we have.” And I think that they'll remember my name too, right? And so oftentimes, when you're the teacher, it's easy for them to remember you. It's not as easy for you to remember them. So you make that initiative, you show that that's your intention on Day 1, and it resonates with them. To me, that's a style of leadership. I think it establishes — I look power structures, and there's kind of a couple core power structures. There's five main ones. There's legitimate power. There's like, reward-based power, coercive power, there's expert power, and then there's reverent power. So then the ones I really focus on, I fixate on and I think about all the time, is this idea of expert leadership and reverent power. And this idea is that if you're an expert, people listen to you because you're knowledgeable. That's worth something, to have you on the team, right? You're the expert of a topic. What's even more powerful than that is if someone follows you, believes in your message for the sole purpose that they admire you. There's something about you that exhibits, you know — they see themselves in you. They want to be like you. Naviere Walkewicz Like you did for your AP economics teacher. Capt. Garrett Kauppila Absolutely. Mark Hardy, he had reverent power to me. He was someone that I looked up to, and now I hope I exhibit some of his traits of caring about people first. If you can show people you really care — you're gonna make mistakes — but if you stay consistent in your path, you have a motivation, you have a North Star that you're going towards and you do so with conviction, early on, you're gonna threaten people. Early on, you're gonna get haters. But as time goes on, as people are looking for that guiding North Star, if you're unwavering in who you are, I do believe people would want to join that train. If your tracks stay true, people eventually look and say, “You know, you get what you expect. What he says is what he does. And I believe it.” And eventually, that's the path that I want to lead others down. And so I think if your morality is guided the right direction, along the way, people are gonna hop off board, but you're gonna get a lot more people joining. And so that reverent power, that true leadership that says if we took the uniform off, this person would have respected you the exact same, that is what I put weight on. It's not a matter of rank. In fact, generally speaking, what is a captain at the Air Force Academy? There's not a lot of legitimate power, right, if we're being frank. So we're not at a normal base around the main squadron where that may be a significant leadership role. So I think that what it comes down to is treat everyone the way you want to be treated. Respect all, fear none. Naviere Walkewicz Wait, say that again. Capt. Garrett Kauppila Respect all, fear none. And the idea is that I genuinely don't believe I treat a four-degree different than I would treat my boss, who's an O-6. They walk by my office, it's, “Yes ma'am, how can I help?” “Yes sir, how can I help?” You know, “What's going on?” It's absolute respect, but it's not… You know, you're not treating people as though they're different than, less than, etc. They're all the same. If you treat everyone — you have a standard to hold everyone… You know, hold yourself to the level of responsibility that you treat everyone with respect but not fear. I remember sitting down — we actually, you and I… You did the run back from... Naviere Walkewicz Oh, march back? Capt. Garrett Kauppila I did the march back. You did the run back with Arden. And I wasn't willing to run at that moment, but I remember we got back and got to go to Mitchell Hall with the basics, and they asked me for a piece of advice. And it sounds too light hearted, but it's just true. You know, the basics, they're being led by our rising two-degrees. Do the rising two-degrees actually believe that they are in a place where they should have that much power over people? They kind of laugh about it. They know, “Whoa, this is weird that I have so much control over human beings.” Here comes the two-degree, which was me, right? I was the 19-year-old. And there I am leading a flight and basic training. It's almost comical to them that they have the ability to do that. So what I told the basics is, I was like, “Hey, guys, just so you know, guys, gals, right? Respect them. Be respectful. Never waver on that, but you don't need to fear them. They too struggle with things. They too have pain, have life happen to them.” And by the way, same with me, I'm a captain. What does that mean? I promoted twice. Woohoo. I promoted twice and didn't get in trouble. I mean, I'm not that different from them, right? They're all gonna graduate from here too. They're gonna end up in the same shoes as I am. So, no, anyway, my perspective is just that I'm a captain. Whoopty doo. I too have things I'm struggling with in my life, that I'm I'm working on every single day, trying to be a better version of myself. So I ask for their respect, but hopefully don't have to ask for it, because I'm already showing them that, reciprocating that. And so I think it becomes a natural state of your existence in the rooms that you're in. Naviere Walkewicz So I have to ask, have you had a cadet that you've seen or has come to you and basically views you as having that reverent power? Have you had a cadet share a story, or have you actually witnessed someone kind of taking on things that have come from you? Capt. Garrett Kauppila It's a great question. I've had a had an interaction yesterday that meant a lot to me. Incredible, incredible person, leader. And we were talking about, you know, she was preparing for GSP interviews. She's a stellar student. She's a great military leader. Naviere Walkewicz And what does GSP stand for? Capt. Garrett Kauppila Graduate School Program. We're very creative, as you know, at the Air Force Academy. Graduate School Program, but for the Management Department, which is the same slot that I earned in December of 2019. And so she came in to talk about it, and they're going to teach the department something about leadership, right, about their experience that they're having, and how they would use that experience to reflect on their cadets as if they want to be an instructor. At the end of the day, it's a grad school slot, but we're hiring someone to be our colleagues, right? Work with us to inspire the next generation of cadets. And we sat there and we talked about this idea of how much she cares, and she talked about a story. She was the squadron commander in basic, right? Which is not the flight, but like the whole, the five flights. So she was leading the squadron, and this year — I think it was the first time they actually were six weeks in that role. It wasn't three weeks and then transition. They wanted to create some cohesion. Naviere Walkewicz OK, so putting a lot of effort and the focus on the sponsor, or excuse me, squadron. Capt. Garrett Kauppila So the squadron commander and the director of operations stayed for all six weeks of basic. So she was the person for those five flights of basics. That was their leader for the whole six weeks. And she's not a large presence; she's not an intimidating person. But she's a caring, charismatic leader, and because of that, when she says something, people listen and it carries weight. And she told me she came to me because she felt as though I exhibited those same things that she feels within herself. It's funny because sometimes presence, like someone has a larger presence or a smaller presence by stature, they utilize that to try and create coercive power, legitimate power. I try to drop the sword and shield as soon as I meet anybody, right? Try to make it as calm, as comfortable as you can. And so when we were talking about that more, she told me a story that she was actually on the obstacle course trying to do everything with her basics. That's the type of leader she is. She tore her ACL and her basics watched her fall off the equipment in pain and struggle. I was like, “Gosh, were you not thankful that you are a kind, charismatic, caring leader — that's your leadership style?” Because they reciprocated that immediately. Could you imagine if she was just demeaning, demoralizing. Naviere Walkewicz Right. They'd be like, “Ha ha. She got what…” Capt. Garrett Kauppila That's how it would feel. It would absolutely feel that way, if that was the way that she led. And she remembers going back, she said she went back to the lightning shelter and sat there with other basics that were broken, and sat down and said, “How are you guys feeling?” They felt out of place. They felt bad. They weren't able to contribute and support their classmates and whatever. She goes, “I get it. I really get it.” You know, it's so easy for us to think we know someone's story, to call someone an F-18 pilot. I don't know if that term existed, right? That idea that you are skipping out of things. Do you really know? Do you really know what's going on? You probably don't. I know I was fresh out of knee surgery, actually, when I showed up to basic training. I had gotten knee surgery my senior year of high school and it's probably the reason I ended up here. You know, end up, you know, some other things fell by the wayside, and I came to the Air Force Academy. You know, people can say anything they want, but I don't want to connect them to my office to work with me. They say, “Hey, Capt. Kap. Can we do this, this, this, or can we change this class and change this major?” So I can. And sometimes I just want to say, “No, you can't do that.” But instead, I don't, I don't say that. I say, “Why? Why do you want that?” And what I learned by asking why, and asking why again, is there is a root cause of these things. And when we address the root cause, because you actually care enough to ask them, we can actually fix the problem, and we don't need to do any of those things. And so you get to the root of what something, what someone really has going on in their lives, and it's just proven to be so worth it for me. Every single time I get the chance to do it, I've learned that if I can pour a little bit into someone's glass — OK, first of all, don't pour from empty glass if you're empty within yourself, right? Like I was when I left to go home and be with my family — I didn't have energy for everybody else in that moment, trying to pour from empty glass is — that's not a sustainable effort. Fill your glass, make sure your people, your family and yourself are squared away and good to go. At that point when you have an abundance of water in that glass, pour from it, it's the most rewarding thing in the entire world. And I realized this. And you know, I think everything in my life getting up to that point created this, whether it was the highs of life, the opportunities presented to me through the Air Force Academy, through travel, through football, whatever that may have looked like, but then the lows of life that rooted me in gratitude, what I realized is happiness, and this is my little theory, that happiness is a box. I consider it a box of happiness. The amount of happiness you actually feel in your life is the area of that box. So, many people are predicated, they're so focused on raising the ceiling of the box. Raise the top. The problem is, if your gratitude dissipates along the way, the area never increases. So what happens is, oftentimes, people create more opportunities for themselves in their life and they take for granted all the places they've been and all the places they were. And so because of that, the gratitude dissipates as your opportunities increase, you never become happier. And they wonder why it's not so happy at the top and cheery… Because they weren't rooted in gratitude. If they never leave the ground and they keep the base of their box, in fact, they continue to drive that base of the box down into the ground while they create more opportunities, you will have more height to your box. What about the width Naviere Walkewicz I was gonna say, what about your gratitude being wider? Capt. Garrett Kauppila Now I've got a long, skinny box, right? That's not a lot of area. This is the people you get to share with, the friends and the family, the people you get to support and give back to. Right? You create opportunity. You root yourself in gratitude so you understand the people to your left and right. And now I believe it's your job to share it with them, expose them to it, so they can increase their opportunities. So they never leave their feet on the ground and they keep their gratitude. My job, I believe in — I'm a utilitarian, right? It's a philosophy concept. Increasing the ultimate world happiness — if there was some world happiness meter, an arbitrary meter in the world, if my actions are going to raise it, I want to do that. If they're going to diminish it, I'm not going to do that. So if it benefits me and hurts five others, I'm not going to do it. But if it benefits five others and it may take time out of my day, that sounds like a win, right? So I realized in every moment I'm with a cadet at a highly adaptable state of their mind — high brain plasticity. They're thinking, they're growing. They don't know quite yet who they are. They haven't lived on their own, haven't cooked their own meals, right? I was the same. I was no different. There was a moment that you realize how precious this moment in time is, they are. And I'm teaching firsties right now. They are about to go create everything that they are. But, I mean, you've met people you haven't seen five years, 10 years, 20 years since graduation. You're such a different person, right? At that time, when the leave the Academy, they really find themselves. So I don't take for granted conversations that I have, the moments I share with them in the classroom. I tell them my gratitude every day: “Thank you for letting me do what I love.” I say that to them almost every single day: “Thanks for allowing me to be here.” They're like, “I have to be here,” but that's not the demeanor that I dress it with, right? So root myself in gratitude and I just pour into them as much as I physically can. Maybe it's selfish of me. In fact, maybe I do it for myself. Think about it this way. I realize that pouring into people actually makes me happy. It really does. So maybe I pour into some people because it makes me happier. What if everyone was that selfish? If they actually knew what makes them happy? How many people go create massive success in their life, but they don't ever give back? And they find out, later on, they create these companies, they see all these things, and then they come back and go, “I really want to give back to my Air Force Academy. I really want to come back and teach in the classroom.” Heck, I remember sitting the NextGen Advisory meeting, you and I were in there with individuals highly successful, far more successful than I, and many of them were saying, “All I want to do is come back to the Academy and teach.” Gosh, what a moment for me to realize and to be introspective on the fact that I can't take this for granted. They can do all these things of all this success. People are oftentimes trying to chase someone on a ladder and try to be like them and have their success. And really, they're just trying to do what I do every day, and they want to do it for free. I get paid to do this job. What a blessing that is. And so those are the moments that help you to sink your — or dig your heels in and say, “I'm here.” Gosh, imagine me as a two-degree. You told me you're gonna get the Air Force Academy teaching the exact subject you want to teach, finance and investments. I bet that's a dream come true. Well, I can't be here now and forget about that, because then I'm gonna miss this moment. I'm gonna move on and wish I had it back. Don't put yourself in that position. Naviere Walkewicz You said something really interesting. It was about — I think it was something to the effect of you can't have something extrinsic, like chasing some kind of like opportunity and make you happy, right? It won't fulfill in like an intrinsic unhappiness or a hole or something. So how do you — how does that translate, I think, as you're helping to lead others and help others to think that way, as they progress? I know you talked about being rooted in gratitude, but is there more to it than the gratitude piece, right? Like, how do you also make sure that you're thinking about the intrinsic pieces? Capt. Garrett Kauppila Yeah, so I think that I have a great opportunity while I'm here. I get the opportunities to work with and see a lot of our recruits coming into the campus, and I get to speak with them and families. Get to see the excitement they have to eventually, one day, hopefully, arrive at the Air Force Academy. I get to work with a lot of cadets every single day, thankful to do it, and I get to see a lot of cadets. Sometimes that attitude changes. The gratitude they once felt, they become skeptical, it becomes challenging. They can't see the forest above the trees. They're caught up in that moment. But I also work with a lot of grads. I'm thankful to work with the Bolt Brotherhood and thankful to work with the NextGen Advisory Council, and have a lot of touch points to our grads. And I've never yet met a grad that is not grateful that they had gone through the Air Force Academy, that they graduated from the Air Force Academy. I've never met one that regretted that experience. I know a lot of recruits that are excited as hell to be here. I know a lot of cadets that are questioning their decisions at times. I know a lot of grads that would do anything to ensure that their loved ones or other people know about the Air Force Academy and what it did for them in their lives. And so what I asked of them is just to reflect back and remember themselves and how excited they were to have the opportunity to earn that appointment to be one of the, you know, 10, perhaps, you know, applications that had the opportunity to say that they were accepted and that they were gonna attend the Air Force Academy. Remember that pride they felt when they got their congressional nomination right? Imagine the feeling that parents feel when they drop them off at IDay, right? All of those feelings, they're real. You can't let them dissipate so quickly. Naviere Walkewicz Well, I mean, Kap, this has been amazing. There's a couple more questions I want to ask you. The first one is, because you're so passionate, and obviously you take care of yourself, how do you how do you feel your glass every day so that you can pour into others? What does that look like? Capt. Garrett Kauppila Yeah, for me, I have to stay busy. And that's the part of me that, you know, when I was younger, I was smaller, I think that's never changed. I have to remain busy. I tell people all the time, if they apply — because we've all had that experience of leaving the Air Force Academy and realizing, “Wait the people at the Air Force Academy are really fantastic. There are such high-quality people, intellectually, emotionally. In all ways. You go into society, it can be a little sobering, a little like, “ Whoa. We are not the Air Force Academy anymore. These people don't operate on the same frequency." That's not within our service, that's just in life, that's going around day to day. So I tell cadets all the time, “You have proven yourself that you can do this. You can commit to your goals. You can complete these long hours, these long days. Life will only get easier in terms of your time commitments.” Now, kids and things like that could change that, but at the end of the day, they prove themselves they can do it. I challenge them to continue on that trajectory when they graduate — not to let off the gas and continue to find things that actually make them passionate. OK, it's so easy for me to wake up every day with this passion, with this desire to do what I do because I love what I do. It doesn't feel like work. So biggest things for me in order to stay ahead, whether that be health, whether that be my sleep, whether that be my accomplishments, whatever it may look like — your leadership ability — I have to wake up and accomplish something. Wake up in your day and accomplish a task. I like waking up before everyone else. I did start doing that as a cadet; I'd finish ball practice and realize I have no mental capacity. I cannot do homework. It is 8 p.m. and I'm exhausted. So what did I do when I was exhausted? I went to bed. I put on my eye mask, my earplugs and slept like little baby angels, right? My hands crossed over my chest, right? And people always make fun of me. “Why are you always in bed at 8 p.m.” “Well, why are you always in bed when it's 4 a.m.?” What I realized was there's a time of day that no one can schedule anything on my schedule. No one's scheduling anything from 4 to 7. Just the reality. So if you wake up early in the morning and you accomplish tasks, now, I'm not getting up at 4 in the morning, usually it's about 5, but I accomplish tasks early in my day. I get ahead of my day, and I prioritize fitness, I prioritize my health, I prioritize my sleep. We can't possibly learn, lead, network, meet people, accomplish. I mean, we're gonna get injured. We're not helping ourselves. Naviere Walkewicz For less money, though, we can do an eye mask, because I also sleep with an eye mask. It's a game changer. Capt. Garrett Kauppila Read reviews on Amazon. Like is this easy stuff, right? I love classical conditioning, the idea that earplugs, eye mask mean sleep; earplugs, eye mask means sleep. Eventually you put in your ear plugs, your eye mask, whatever does your body do? It goes to sleep. Your brain turns off and stops thinking, because that's your routine. So I go to bed early, I wake up early, and I love to accomplish tasks early on in my day. By the time I arrive in the classroom, we're a couple hours in, right? The brain is operating. We're fully awake. We're ready to go. So I challenge people, if they want to achieve more in their life, they need to learn how to achieve more in a day, and once you learn how to achieve more in a day, learn how to achieve more in a week. And now can you make it sustainable. Some people have — they're 75 hard. They can do these things for a period of time. Their new year's resolutions — we love the gym in January, the first week of January. March… Naviere Walkewicz Everyone gets the gym back. Capt. Garrett Kauppila Yeah. And then all of a sudden, the gym is empty by February, right? You know how that goes. So it's like, do you actually mean this, or do you think that you want to do it? So I think if you can accomplish — learn how to accomplish more in one day, do it again the next day, and then repeat it the next day. But in order to do that, you have to be pursuing something that is yours. It can't because my family wants me to. It'll never be sustainable. It can't because someone else thinks it. It can't because I saw it on the internet. It has to be because Naviere Walkewicz wants to do this right. She wants to do this for her life. And so Kap wants to be this person. I want to strive for more and be the best version of myself. My mom tucked me into bed every single night when I was a little kid, you know — 4-year-old, 5-year-old — and she always said, “Hey, Garrett, the only thing you can do is be the best person you can be.” That's all you can do. That's your sphere of influence. So I try my best to be the best person I can be every day. That way I can be consistent, and people can always look to me and know what you see is what you get. You know that if I hop on the call, if I show up in the classroom, you know exactly what you're gonna get from me. I'm not gonna waver on that, and I think that's worth a lot so that someone can look to you and be admired by you, and hopefully you can exhibit reverent power. Naviere Walkewicz Well, I would ask you, what would you recommend to others and what they can do to be better leaders every day? But it sounds like you might give them the same example you just gave, because you're gonna practice what you preach. Is there anything else you might offer then for our — I mean, you do this with the cadets regularly, but just for anyone listening as they're trying to develop themselves as a leader or be a better, more reverent leader. What else might you offer that they can do each day themselves just to turn that dial a little bit? Capt. Garrett Kauppila Find who you really are. You can read all the books. You can read all the headlines. You can hear from me right now. You can hear from everyone else in this podcast. But if it's not you, it won't be true. You won't be able to make it sustainable. It won't be consistent. You will not be able to replicate those actions. OK, I love football so I love football analogies. You can be Nick Saban and Bill Belichick and have success by not being a player's coach or being a little rough around the edges. Or you can be Sean McVeigh and Dabo Swinney, who, if you don't know any of those people, they are younger in personality and in age. They have handshakes with their players, that's who they are trying to be. Don't try to be the other one, though. If Nick Saban tried to be cool with his players and have handshakes, now you're fake. Now you're just fake. Either one can prove to be successful, but you need to find who you are. And so if you don't know who you are, stop telling other people who they are, right? You have time to go. Your glass isn't full yet. Stop pouring it out. Right? Fill this thing at the top. Doesn't mean be selfish. It's the most selfless thing you could ever do is to pour into yourself, fill your glass so you have an abundance to give to others. If you give yourself a full glass and learn how to make it, you know, replenishing — this is some… we're talking like Red Robin fries here, like truly bottomless glass that we can pour from… Naviere Walkewicz Do you eat Red Robin fries? Capt. Garrett Kauppila I actually have not. But I'm not opposed to eating unhealthy in there, right? It's all aboutcalorie deficits. I just gotta work out more, I guess. But anyway, so my point is, if you don't know who you are, go find that first. That's the most important thing. Naviere Walkewicz How do they start? What's the first step in that? Because you just said you can read all the books, but if you're not this person, that's not you. How do you find out who you are? Capt. Garrett Kauppila You find out who you are by finding out what you actually care about. Learn what you really care about. Think about the times you're at peace. Think about the moment, if you could do anything in the world, money didn't matter, what would you be doing? OK, it sounds really cliche. The reason I teach finance, I teach investments, is to provide I believe that finance is a tool to allow you to be happy. I would never subsidize happiness for money. I believe that you have your finances together and they're squared away, and you are investing properly, doing all those things to take care of you, your life, your family, your stability. You can be present where your feet are, and you can make decisions based off what you really want to do. If you find what it is that you are passionate about, we'll find a way to monetize it later. I truly believe that. I think that we have a role for everyone in this life. Whatever it is that you really care about, find a way to be the best at it. Stop being complacent with being, you know, average. I don't care what it is, I don't care what your job is. Be the best at it, and you will find a way to monetize it. This is a silly story, but I learned so much from it. There was an individual who reached out. He's a content creator, does videography. I actually don't remember the gentleman's name, but he was reaching out every single day to Tyreek Hill. He wanted to video — now, Tyreek Hill is not someone we'll resemble for leadership qualities. That is not what I'm saying in this conversation. However, he was reaching out to Tyreek Hill because he's his biggest fan and he wanted to film videos, take videos of Tyreek Hill to create cool content videos, hype videos, etc. One day, Tyreek Hill's manager saw the message and told him, he said, “I'll come out for free. I will come out for free and do this for you.” What I learned in my life, throughout my time so far, and I have so much more to learn as I go forward, is if you're willing to invest yourself for free, the person that does more than they're paid for will soon be paid for more than they do. If you are willing to put yourself out there and prove to others that they need you, once they realize they want you, now you can charge them for it. So, what he did is say, “I'll come out for free on my dime.” Nothing to it. “Well, OK, sure. This guy wants him out for free and work with me and create videos for me. It sounds fantastic.” Well, then he does such a good job, he's like, “I want to hire you.” Oh, well, now it's gonna cost you, right? That individual ended up being contacted by the NFL because Tyreek Hill took his phone out of his hand, did it back up with him, created one of the coolest videos ever seen on, you know, terms of a game day touchdown celebration. That individual has now gone on to make tons and tons of money. He runs a company. Only happened like two years ago. The point in that story is he offered himself for free to show off his talents, but first you have to invest in yourself. You have to get great at something. Get great at something. Figure out what it is you really want to do and offer yourself for free. And once people realize that they want you, now you can charge them for it. Charlie Jackson, football coach, Air Force Academy grad, Class of 2000. He told me stories in Los Angeles Air Force Base. He was at Los Angeles Air Force Base. His dream was to coach in the NFL. He wanted to coach at the highest levels. And you can go coach a high school, get paid a little bit of money, and then spend decades to work your way up. Now that wasn't what Coach Jackson wanted to do. So he offered to be a free intern at UCLA. “I'm gonna work for free.” And he happened to just sit next to a couple of unpaid interns, one named Kyle Shanahan, head coach of the 49ers. The other is the current GM for the Washington Commanders. Those were the three unpaid interns in UCLA's office. Well, he offered himself for free. He tried to show him that they needed him. Once they realized they wanted him, now, they needed to hire him. He ended up on a quick path coaching at the Atlanta Falcons. He's now coached many other places here. He's now come back to Air Force. How do they always come back to Air Force? It's because they love it here. Something about this place is special. The same reason you're back here, same reason I am too. So I really, I really challenge everyone to find what is their truly love and find a way to be the best at that. Whatever it may be, there's a way to monetize it. Naviere Walkewicz This is amazing. Was there anything that we didn't touch on today that you want to share with our listeners? Capt. Garrett Kauppila Thank you. I appreciate it. Naviere Walkewicz Thank you. Thank you. Naviere Walkewicz As we wrap up today's conversation, I keep coming back to Kap's reminder, don't take for granted the things that matter most. That lesson first struck him in the hardest way when he thought he lost his brother, and it's become the driving force behind how he lives and leads today. Kat also shared another truth worth carrying with us be the best version of yourself, not someone else's version of you. That conviction shows up in how he teaches cadets, how he respects others, regardless of rank, and how he purchase every day with passion and gratitude. So here's the takeaway, Leadership isn't about chasing titles or timelines. It's about showing up authentically, valuing every moment and lifting up the people around you. The question we can all ask ourselves today is, what or who am I taking for granted, and how can I choose to lead with more gratitude and authenticity, starting right now. Thank you for joining us for this edition of lovely leadership. If Cap's story resonated with you please share it with someone who might need it and don't forget to subscribe, you'll find longer leadership on all your favorite podcast platforms we don't want you to miss what's ahead this season. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. KEYWORDS Leadership, gratitude, authenticity, adversity, Air Force Academy, personal growth, mentorship, self-discovery, resilience, life lessons. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
People matter more than position, and leadership starts with taking care of others. Doing that right means a million acts. SUMMARY Those are lessons Lt. Col. Steven “Meathead” Mount '08 shares with listeners in the Season 4 premier of Long Blue Leadership. For Col. Mount, becoming a pilot was a major milestone, but becoming a husband and father had the biggest impact. Don't wait, listen today and become a better leader tomorrow. SHARE THIS PODCAST FACEBOOK | LINKEDIN COL. MOUNT'S TOP LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS Adoption shaped my understanding of support and love. Leadership is about lifting others to achieve their best. Mentorship plays a crucial role in personal and professional growth. Balancing family and career is a continuous challenge. It's important to have tough conversations as a leader. Resilience is key to overcoming setbacks in life and career. Listening more than talking is essential for effective leadership. Recognizing the importance of support systems can enhance leadership effectiveness. Leadership is defined by consistent, everyday actions. The military community thrives on teamwork and mutual support. CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to Leadership Lessons 06:43 The Impact of Adoption on Leadership 14:53 Navigating Challenges at the Academy 22:49 Career Path and Opportunities in Aviation 33:31 Balancing Family and Military Career 44:18 Continuous Improvement as a Leader ABOUT COL. MOUNT BIO Lt. Col. Steven “Meathead” Mount is a decorated officer in the United States Air Force with a career marked by leadership, operational excellence, and a deep commitment to mentoring the next generation. A command pilot with thousands of flight hours, he has served in a variety of demanding roles across multiple aircraft and theaters, bringing a wealth of experience in both combat and peacetime operations. Beyond the cockpit, Lt. Col. Mount is widely recognized for his ability to lead diverse teams through complex challenges, foster innovation, and develop leaders at every level. His career reflects not only technical expertise but also a people-first leadership philosophy that emphasizes accountability, resilience, and service. Known by his call sign “Meathead,” he brings both humility and humor to the serious business of leading Airmen. His story is one of dedication to mission and country, but also of shaping culture, inspiring others, and leaving a lasting impact on the Air Force community. CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Guest, Lt. Col. Steven Mount '08 | Host, Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz Welcome to the first episode of Season 4 of Long Blue Leadership, the podcast where we share insights on leadership through the lives and experiences of Air Force Academy graduates. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. We're kicking off this season with a story that shows how our earliest experiences can shape the kind of leaders we become. Lt. Col. Steve Mount, Class of 2008, call sign “Meathead,” didn't fully realize that truth until later in life. Adopted as an infant, he came to understand that love and support aren't guaranteed. They're gifts. Over his 17-year career, Col. Mount has flown missions across a wide range of aircraft, from the C-130 to special operations to the U-2. And today, he's in command. But through every stage, one belief has stayed with him: People succeed not only through their own efforts, but because someone believed in them. In this conversation, we'll talk about how those early lessons have shaped criminal mom's approach to leading airmen, mentoring the next generation of pilots, balancing mission and family and building teams that are rooted in trust. His story is a powerful reminder that leadership isn't about the me game, it's about lifting others so they can achieve their best. So what better way to start our new season? Col. Mount, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Lt. Col. Steven Mount Thank you so much, ma'am for having me. I really do appreciate this opportunity to at least try to share some of my stories, experiences and honestly, if anything touches base with those who listen in and resonates, that's why I'm glad to be here. Naviere Walkewicz Well, let's start right with a way for them to connect with you. You mentioned your call sign is Meathead. Let's start there. Lt. Col. Steven Mount OK, I'll do my best to tell the story as quickly as I can. And the fun thing about being a pilot — but also I think this plays true in any type of storytelling environment — is, you know, only 10% of the story has to be true when it comes to your call signs. So to start… Oh my gosh— I know there's some friends out there who are going to laugh at this, especially of mine. Going through pilot training… The last part of the pilot training, when I was in the T-1s, when you get to that last part, you know, after you've gone through all the ups and downs, you kind of celebrate a little bit more. And that's what I've done. I had gone out with a couple of my rugby brothers that I played with at the Academy, and we'd gone out to just a country, a little country dance hall, and, you know, we're just enjoying and celebrating. And one of my rugby brothers introduced me to one of his friends through his wife, and this individual, who I didn't know much about at the time, had said— I said, “Yeah, I'm starting T-1s here and all that good stuff. And I immediately, immediately — especially in the celebratory mood I was in — thought, “Oh, this is another awesome student that's coming through. Like, hey, let me start giving you the tidbits. Let me start laying out what to expect.” And that's how I treated this individual for the rest of that evening. You know, we're dancing and having fun and just talking it up. And it was a good evening. It was really good evening. Come Monday morning, I get the word I'm flying with this new instructor in the T- 1s. And I had no idea who this individual was. I did not recognize the name at all. And I asked our flight schedule, like, “Who's this?” Is like, “Oh, it's a new person coming in. I think you're one of his first flights back in the T-1s training wise.” And I was like, “Well, OK, I'm ready to go.” And I sit down, and then this instructor sits down right across from me, and it's a major and sure enough, it's this, the person I thought was a student at the Texas dance, the country dance hall that we were at. Naviere Walkewicz Oh boy! Lt. Col. Steven Mount He looks me up and down. Oh, it was one of those moments of shock, of like, “What do I… Where do I go from here?” And he looks me up and down, he goes, and he laughs, and he goes, “Man, you are just such a meathead.” And so that's where it started. And call signs and nicknames— sometimes, some people like, wanna try change it throughout their careers and try to like, “No, that's not who I am. I don't want that to define me.” So as I'm leaving pilot training at Laughlin Air Force Base, Del Rio, I'm heading towards my first assignment in Tucson, Arizona for the EC-130 and I'm like, “OK, here we go. I'm gonna start fresh. I'm not that meathead that went through the Academy playing rugby. I'm not that meathead in pilot training to I just like to have fun. Just like to have fun. I do my own thing, and I'm gonna start fresh.” And I get out, and one of the very first meetings I had in the new squadron was with the DO, Lt. Col. Reimer. He sits down with me, and he says, “Come on in, because I'm in blues. He goes, come on in. Sit down. And then he's just quiet. I'm like, this is interesting. He looks me up and down and goes, “Yeah, you definitely look like a meathead.” And I'm like, “Whoa.” So sure enough, the major that I flew with was really good friends and had flown with this squadron, told this DO about me, and the DO got through his spiel, introduced me to my first flight commander before I deployed in Afghanistan, and goes, “Hey, this is Meathead. Take care of him. He's a good one.” I was like, “No, no, everyone, please, let's stop.” And then throughout the years, things kept happening that just reinforced the call sign, Meathead. I got into U-2s, me and a buddy, also pilots. We popped both tires on a T-38 at Long Beach Airport, and we closed down the airport for about five hours. It was on the local news. Not happy about that. And then there were multiple times where I tried to, like, get rid of the Meathead persona, the callsign, but I think it was finally solidified on a CNN interview on one of my U-2 deployments, where the lady interviewing us goes, “OK, we can't use your real name. So what name should we use? And before I could even say anything, one of my buddies just pops up and goes, “ It's Meathead.CNN lady, use Meathead.” And I was like, “OK.” And then international news in that interview, I am Capt. Meathead. And I never got away from the call sign, Meathead. Naviere Walkewicz We are gonna find that clip of Capt. Meathead. Lt. Col. Steven Mount It is out there, just U-2… I think the article under CNN: “U-2 spy plane carries out the mission against terrorist organizations.” You know, not that I didn't remember what it was called. Naviere Walkewicz Well, I would say you heard it here first, but you didn't. You heard it maybe, if you heard it in the U-2 world or what have you. But we're gonna find it again. And so we're gonna resurrect here first, but we're so glad you're here. Yes, yes, this is awesome. And you know, I think one of the things I really enjoyed in our early conversation, and what we're gonna share today is how you kind of look back and you are very grateful and thankful for the upbringing you have. And so let's kind of go back to the fact, you know, not a lot of our guests share kind of their background, and the fact that you share that you were adopted. What did that kind of, what role did that play in your life? And, you know, was it insignificant? Or, you know, what did you glean from that? Lt. Col. Steven Mount Yeah, I really appreciate that question. And honestly, I really appreciate you giving the opportunity to kind of share that. It has played a huge role in my life. Adopted 11 months. And what it did for me is set the foundation of the family. It may not necessarily be one you have, it's the one who who's there for you, who supports you, who loves you. And then, honestly, the other part about being adopted, which I kind of— there were struggles, like, it wasn't perfect, but there were struggles in my mind where I wanted to show that those who adopted me, I wanted to show them that I could be more and thank them, you know, on a daily basis, for everything they had done for me, supporting me. So that drove me, that motivated me to get into the Academy, or even— back up, even like, do well in high school, get into the Academy, become a pilot. All of that was the basis of— I want to show that in a weird way, I want to show that your investment was worth it. You know, you found me, you gave me the love and support. So I'm going to give back to you by showing you what you were able to, you know, give a second chance, small, little child. And then the— but the other side of that, and I don't know how many of those who are adopted, who feel like this sometimes. Can't be the only one, but I can at least convey it here. There's a sense of, you know, “Why? Why was I adopted?” You know, what really happened in the sense that those who biologically brought me into this world, was I not worthy enough? Was I just a bad situation. And so there's that part I keep motivational wise to be like, “Well, I'm going to show them what they're missing out on.” And I know that's more of the negative kind of side of the whole internal conflict of being adopted. But I would be lying if I didn't say that that was part of the drive that kept me going throughout those years. Naviere Walkewicz Something that came to my mind when you were saying that was, you know— when did you find out? And how old were you to kind of start having those, those thoughts and questions, you know, not only why, but how do I show that I am worthy? Lt. Col. Steven Mount Yes, so my mother and father did an amazing job of, I remember, I can't remember the name of this particular book, but there was a book that she had given me that she read to me, and that, throughout the years, as I she utilized, helped me start reading and whatnot. And the basis of the book was, you know, cartoon with a little bit of words, is, “You were not purchased, you know, you were not bought at a store. You know you were, you were brought in and chosen and to be a part of a family.” So she, she wanted to have this idea that I always knew, that was adopted. She never wanted to surprise me, or she never wanted to be like, one day, like, “Hey, just so you know…” She did an awesome job of leading into that, Hey, you were adopted. But don't look at it as this, ‘We went to the store and we picked out the one we liked.' It's more of a, ‘We wanted you in our family.' And that's where it started.” It started, “We wanted a bigger family.” Whether they were, at the time, not able to grow or have themselves, they decided that, “We still want to grow a family. So let's look through adoption as a means.” So she had that book, I remember that book, and then the other book, which I still love to this day, and I got a copy for my kids, I Love You Forever, and how she would read that book to me every single night with the words, “…and I love you forever, like you for always. As long as you're living, my baby, you'll be.” That showed me that it didn't matter where I came from. This was my mom, you know, this was my family. So she did a really good job laying that foundation for me, for who I've become to be. Naviere Walkewicz So would you put your parents in that bucket of inspirational leaders for you that have shaped you? And are there others? Lt. Col. Steven Mount One-hundred percent. Like I said, the foundational piece of being that inspirational leader, to me in the sense of working on it all the time, right? It's not simple but accepting people for who they are. Where they're at in life. Accept them for their faults, accept them for the things that they don't like about themselves, but just accepting them and giving them the support, giving them the love that they need to show them, that they can do anything, I like to think for the most part, I'm an example of that because of what my parents did for me. Naviere Walkewicz So, as a young boy, and you talked a little bit about this, you wanted to prove to them. So Was that something you feel over time, you continue to develop this desire to show your worth? And where have you seen that show up I guess even throughout your going— maybe even at the Academy, how has that kind of formed you as a leader individually? Lt. Col. Steven Mount Yes, yes. So the showing the worth, the showing the value, or paying it back and showing my parents, once again, I use the word “investment” like it was good— I was good investment. Like I was a good return on investment. But it's helped when I've gone through those struggles, when I've gone— because the first time I put in for the Academy and… back up just a little bit. My dad likes to tell a story that I even told my fifth-grade teacher that she was, you know, “What do you want to do?” I was like, “I'm gonna be a pilot.” I said nothing else. Like, I want to be pilot. I want to fly. And then I had had an awesome mentor whose son, at the time, was going through the process of the Academy, sophomore year in high school, and she helped me with that. Good ol' Mrs. Williams, amazing. When I first initially applied for the Academy, I did not get it. I got a “Sorry, you are not competitive at this time.” Here starts some of those moments in your life to where, like, “OK. How can I bounce back? Do I accept the rejection, or do I find another means?” And even when that happened, that first time, my parents, they were like, “It's OK, it's OK. You don't need to…” They were always like, “You don't need to prove anything else. We love you, regardless.” I was like, “No, I need to prove this.” So I found other means, and I was, I will say, blessed in the sense that at that time, my running back coach for the high school reached out to the Academy. This happened early my senior year, and reached out and was like, “Hey, we have, I have someone who I think might do well for your program.” And then, sure enough, I got invited to come out for a football recruiting visit and I sat down with Fisher Deberry, and he just goes, “Would you like to play for this program?” And once again, I was like, “Wait a minute. No, no. I already got rejected. You know, I already gotten the…” But obviously I was going through my head, but all I said was, “Yes, sir, I would love to play for this program. I'd love to go the Academy.” And he made it happen. And I got recruited, and I got the invite to come out, to go the United States Air Force Academy. Wow. And once again, that only happened because my parents, they said, “Hey, we don't care what happens. We love you. Support you. You make the decision and we're here behind you.” And then I had a coach who was like, “I got you. I've seen what you do. I support this.” And went out on a limb for me. And then, in a sense, I guess Fisher DeBerry was also like, “I'm taking this football recruit, I hope he makes it through the Academy. So the love and support is, was there throughout. Naviere Walkewicz What a path, I mean, that is quite unique. And, yeah, that's something to just kind of sit in a little bit, right? You know, the path of to your point, it just comes from support. And obviously you have to do the things to make sure that when the opportunity presents itself, you're ready to take that step, but what an incredible story of those who have supported you. Let's talk about a little bit before we kind of get into I think, what I think is the next real moment in your life — when you talk about becoming a father in your family. But while you're at the Academy, I'm just curious what more you learned about yourself as a leader, because you no longer had to prove to your parents that you were worthy of their investment, right? Like this is investment, right? Like this is a new season of your life. What did that look like for you as a leader? Lt. Col. Steven Mount The challenges and the experiences I had the Academy — and I know I talked about this in one of my interviews previously with the foundation — was that I had to I went through my sophomore year and the rigors of academics, of the military side, of sports. It was taking this toll. I will say this many times. I'll continue to say I'm not the smartest crayon in the shed. Naviere Walkewicz Wait, did you say crayon in the shed? Lt. Col. Steven Mount I did. A little mixture of the sharpest tool in the box, exactly. I love it! I'm glad someone caught it. That's perfect! But yes, hard work was probably the foundation of what the Academy taught me was you persevere by hard work. You do the day in; you do the day out. You get after it. Because I was not getting after it after sophomore year. My GPA was not the best, and I had to approach my sophomore year, which very fortunate, because I had done my best to put in the time with the football program. But obviously I was losing ground in the academic side and that came back to almost biting, in the sense that I could have failed out. So I had had one of those— Once again, my father being an amazing mentor himself, whether he knows it or not. And I talked to him, and I said, “Dad, I think I have to quit football. I don't think I can continue with this, the rigors of all of this with the Academy.” And he goes, “Well, what was your dream?” I was like, “My dream was to fly.” He goes, “Well, did you go there to play football? Or did you go there to fly?” And that was an easy answer. But then I was thinking about all those coaches and mentors and those who helped me get to where I was, and I never really quit at something, and that's what it felt like. It really felt like I was quitting. I was quitting my teammates. I was quitting my coaches. And that weighs heavy on your soul, for all those out there who just are struggling, like, “Should I continue?” But my dad was right. My priorities weren't to become a football player, because I wasn't gonna be. I wasn't going to be. I wasn't going to become, you know, some — who can I name drop? — Chad Hall, you know, going to the NFL, doing amazing things. I wasn't going to be out there starting on, maybe third if they still have fourth string… maybe fourth string. So my dad helped me with those priorities by, once again, just being supportive. He never said one way or the other. He said, “What do you want to do?” And so I had that hard conversation with him, and went down to the Field House, and I said, “I apologize. I have to quit so I can concentrate on what I want to do for my dreams.” And once we had that was hard, that was very difficult. So that was one of the challenges at the Academy presented, and how I bounced back from that was you always go two ways. You always go into the woe is me and you know, just kind of beat yourself up and just hold on to that, that pride and ego being shattered. Or you can find a community, a support group, that will be there with you. And I found that almost immediately with my rugby brothers. They're just like me. They're like, “Hey, we just like to hang out at our own little table at Mitchell Hall. We like to just come out, play the sport, do what you love to do, athletic wise, and you'll have some more free time, obviously, for academics.” Not that I'd utilize that correctly still, but that's what it took to get me through those next couple years, that and my amazing roommates. I think all of us Academy grads and those who are going through right now, a support of a good roommate is huge. I that, uh, I appreciate the question, because now it's just dawning on me how much I just really appreciate my roommates at the Academy for their support as well. Very similar to my parents, it's like, “Hey, I don't care what you do, but I'm here to support you, love you regardless.” So I got a lot of that the Academy, and that's what helped get me through. Naviere Walkewicz That's amazing. I think there's a couple of things I want to dig into a little bit. The first one is, you know, I think deciding to have that tough conversation where, one, you felt like you're already prideful, and you're having to, I'm putting in air quotes, “quit.” Can you talk about how you approached that, other than, I know you went and did it. But I think sometimes one of the most challenging things we can do as leaders is have a tough conversation when it involves us either stepping back or taking a step down from what seems to be the trajectory of what's next. And so I'm just— if you could just share a little bit more about that, I think that would be helpful. Lt. Col. Steven Mount So, and I just want to clarify: As leaders, we have to recognize and we have to have the courage to have the tough conversations, because that wouldn't be the first time that I'd have to make a decision in that regard, or have the tough conversations to where it was gonna affect me personally or those around me. You deal with it understanding, one, give yourself a little bit of grace. Give yourself a little bit of grace in the sense that whatever tough decision you have to make, you're not alone. And I imagine you might not always be the first person who had either to make that decision or was going through something like that. I was not the only one going through something at that time like that. I didn't know that. And so I've had other conversations where others were like, “Yeah, I also, you know how to make that type of call to not play anymore or give up something, because my priority was this...” You know, what was driving me to succeed was something else, and that followed me well throughout my career, because I've had many, many tough conversations. I've had the tough talk as a leader. I've had to tell someone that, “I'm sorry, your dreams to become a pilot…” It's not going to happen because of their performance. I've had conversations on how to get through those tough moments and said how to get on the other side. And I know it's like a broken record, but it just comes through with the support of being there for that individual or being there to guide them to the next step. And I had that. I had that when I made that tough decision. I had someone want to give myself grace. Two, I realized I was not alone. And three, I had the support to get from this side of that tough decision bridge to the other side. And because that support was there, I learned that, and I learned to pass that on from all my leadership opportunities, to be like, “Let me be the one who guides you over this bridge. It's not gonna be fun. There's gonna be parts are gonna hurt. It's gonna be painful. But I will be next to you to get to the other side, to where we can get back to a good place. We get back to what really matters and get back to succeed in maybe another sense.” So the tough convos as leaders, you have to have those tough convos. Do not shy away from them. They're gonna happen, whether you like it or not. Naviere Walkewicz I'm really glad you shared it that way, because I think it created a pathway to how to approach it, to your point. You know, it they're not comfortable, they're not designed to be that way. But if you start it with, you know, being that support in mind, and how to get someone, even if you're giving the worst news, the worst news where, “This was your dream, you're not gonna be able to do it because of this. And here's now where we're at, and how can I help you succeed through that?” I think that's what a wonderful lesson you just shared. And so I want to dive now into your career, because you had a really broad career, one that's not a traditional path, and I want to understand why it looked that way. So C-130, EC-130, Special Ops, you— talk a little bit about how you navigated that and what was the driving reasons behind that navigation? Lt. Col. Steven Mount Yes, ma'am. So something you said earlier, which I really liked, I really love to try to convey to those around me, and actually, I've gone through some of these conversations over the last month and a half with younger instructor pilots. Luck is just the crossroad of opportunity and being prepared, and I'm pretty sure someone super smarter than me said that. I barely remembered. But the opportunities that present themselves to me for what I wanted to do, for my goals in the Air Force. So thankfully, even getting through pilot training, that was, in itself, amazing, transformational. Getting those wings, right? Getting those wings because pilot training, just like my Academy career, I had some ups and downs and some challenges but was able to get through because the sense of me becoming a pilot was first and foremost to fly. I want to be up there in the sky. I want to rush past the clouds. I want to touch the highest point I can. I want to be a pilot's pilot. And then right behind that was I want to accomplish the mission for whatever platform or whatever weapon system I'm given, aircraft wise. So those are my two biggest priorities. And that helped me understand that I had some failures of pilot training when I got to my first assignment, EC-130s. But that was perfect for me. That was— I never knew that. I never knew that in pilot training, that the EC-130 would fulfill me in that sense of my sense of purpose as much as it did. And I'm and getting out there, like said, four or five deployments to Afghanistan, as well as multiple TDYs. I was doing the mission, and I was happy, because I was— that's exactly what I wanted to do. That's exactly what young Meathead Mount was built for. But there were parts of me that still wanted to do more. Like, I felt like I could do more. I could be— I could help out more. I could— it's just itching, or not itching, but just burning in the back. It's like, “Hey, you are built for so much more. You can do more. Let's look for those opportunities.” So, funny enough, the first opportunity I had at that time, or I thought I had, was I reached out to— it's no longer around — but the 6th Special Operations Squadron at Duke Field. It was a combat aviation advisory mission. These individuals got to travel the world. I got to learn languages. Literally, they were sent to school to learn languages, to embed with other nations, to build those relationships, to be on the ground but still flying multiple different aircraft. I was like, “That's awesome. That sounds like me. That sounds like something I can do, and I can bring value to the table, and all the above.” So I put in my application; it was immediately rejected. In their eyes, I did not have the experience yet. I did not have what they were looking for, understandable. So here I am in another situation to where, like, “OK, well, what do I— is there any other means or ways that I can continue to fulfill my purpose as a pilot and get after the mission? Because that's what I really wanted to do, get after mission, whatever that looks like. I thought the sticks was an opportunity. They had said no to me, that's fine. And then I had an amazing friend reach out. He goes, “Hey, I heard you're getting a little long winded out there at EC-130s. You should put an application in for the U-2.” And I was like, “What are you talking about? I have no jet experience, other than the T-1. I don't have that background to be that type of caliber pilot.” He goes, “Nope, nope. They're looking for good guys and girls. They're looking for those who are motivated to do the mission. And if you could fly, you can fly, if you can't, well, you know, they'll figure that out, and they'll send you home.” And I was like, “OK.” And so I submitted for the U-2, put my application in, they call me out, and it's a two-week interview. The first week they have you in service dress, and you meet all the leadership, and you meet all the other pilots, and just have conversations. That's all, they just wanna get to know you. You know, “What's your true motivation for being here?” And I explained it, just like I've explained to you: “I wanna fly. I wanna do the mission. I wanna be a pilot's pilot. I wanna do all the cool stuff.” And they go, “OK.” Well, week two, they put you in U-2, a two-seater. They have two-seater trainers. They put you in a U-2. They give you all the weekend prior to study, and they say, “Cool, let's see what you got.” And they have an instructor, he instructs, he does his best to give you tidbits on how to safely land the U-2. And you have three days. You have two training flights and then a sort of assessment evaluation flight on that third day, and oh my gosh, did I ever humble myself as a pilot when I realized how horrible I truly was. I felt like I could not land the U-2 safely. I felt like I was messing everything up. I felt like— as soon as we got done with that third day of flying, and we got back into the squadron, and I remember the IP just being like, and then, you know, walks away because they have to talk to the squadron commanders. They have to go talk to the other leadership there. And once again, I find myself like, “OK, I 100% failed. I mean, I gave it my best. I gave it everything I had. But, you know, here I am gonna fall short again.” And they do this. And I realized this afterwards, that they do this, they do that like wait game, you know, they keep you in suspense for a reason. And I waited, it felt like hours and hours and hours. I imagine it probably might only be like hour, hour and a half. And a squadron commander called me in. He goes, “Yeah, the IP definitely didn't like some of this, some of these, these type of landings, some of this airmanship you're showing. I didn't really like this. But overall, he says you're a nice enough guy, so do you want the job?” And I was like, “Whoa.” And it blew my mind. And that was awesome. That was awesome because once again, leading up to that moment, it was the support of my friend who reached out. It was the support of my wife being like, “Yeah, I think you can do this.” And I had even called, my parents were like, “I had this opportunity to fly this really unique aircraft. It's going to be challenging. What do y'all think?” They're like, “Hey, we love you. Go get it.” And I was like, no other words of advice, no other like, inspiring — you know, my dad, a Florida farm man, was just like, “No, I think he'll do fine. We love you and just let us know how it goes.” I was like, man, I'm really missing out in motivational speeches. But you know what? The sentiment is there, and that's all I need. So I got that position, did a few years with the U-2. And then towards the end of the U-2 career, I got word from another friend saying the 6th Special Operations Squadron is growing. “We are looking for readily qualified and experienced people.” Naviere Walkewicz And this is the one that rejected you. Lt. Col. Steven Mount Yes, ma'am, I got rejected last time. He goes, “It's OK. Put in another application. You know, you're a little more experienced now, you've got a little bit more under your belt.” And I said, “OK,” and I put in an application, it got rejected again, and here I am, like, “What is going on?” My buddy reached out to me— Naviere Walkewicz Your name is blacklisted in that group across the board. Like, “Oh, there's that Mount guy. Cross it out.” Lt. Col. Steven Mount But I think that ended up being somewhat of a blessing. It was like, “Wow, This guy is motivated to come out here.” Because they had seen the last application years ago. They'd seen this one. And I think the word finally got around that's like, “Hey, he's actually really motivated to come try out, at least for this mission.” And so once again, from good mentors, they're like, “Go ahead, try it out. Put the application in one more time, see what happens.” I did, got picked up for assessment selection. It's another week, week and a half interview. They challenge you mentally, they challenge you physically. They put you in situations to see how you react. I don't wanna give too much away for that process, even though, you know, unfortunately that process is not there anymore. But after that grueling week, they once again, here I am in front of another squadron commander, and here they are opening my life in front of them, and they're saying, “Well, we don't like this. We definitely don't like this. Tell us a little more about this,” you know. And that was about an hour interview, sit down, and it's not just the squadron commander. It was leadership — four or five individuals. It was an Army lieutenant colonel's flight doc behind them, you know, kind of doing that very watching, waiting, assessing, and another one of the situations, I'm like, oh, “Here we go. I don't think it's gonna happen.” But then at the end of that interview, they sit down, squadron commander stands up and goes, “Welcome to the 6th.” And the only things I can think of — and I know a lot of listeners or viewers out there do the same thing, and I tell this to my young when they get their wings, I tell them this as well — think of that first person, or persons, that when something amazing happens to you, you immediately reach out to them and you tell them, “Thank you for the support, thank you for the love, thank you for believing in me when others didn't.” And that's exactly what I did after that one. I called my wife, and I called my parents. I said, “It happened. We got it. I got it,” you know, because it wasn't just me, and I know those experiences going from one mission to the next, and those setbacks have— I get to share these stories all the time with these young instructor pilots that I'm with, as well as students, because I get to utilize it as a leadership tool to be like, “Don't give up on yourself. That's first and foremost. And then even if you believe you might give up on yourself, trust me, there's someone like me or your family members or your squadmates, they won't give up on you. And just remember that.” And that's why I get to share these stories throughout my career, of like, “Hey, I failed at this. Look where I'm at now, because I had the support and because I kept going, Hey, I failed at this. Look how it played out. I'm here.” So a lot of my transition from different platforms and different experiences has helped shape that leadership side of me to say, simply put, “It's OK to fail, all right?” I mean, you're never going to succeed if you have this tried and failed a couple times, right? So, right, Naviere Walkewicz Wow. Well, I want to go into— because you've mentioned this a couple times. We've talked about your parents, but you know, to have a career that's successful and to navigate that, you talked about your wife. So I'm curious if you can share with listeners who have to maybe the word is not choose between. But how do you navigate the importance of your marriage and that relationship with your profession, and trying to succeed in that trajectory, whatever that trajectory is for you. So maybe you can talk a little bit about how that, how that worked throughout all of those transitions. Lt. Col. Steven Mount Oh, OK. I usually do better at this from a better half nearby, which she is, in a sense. She's trying to work out and give me her working space right now, which I love. I'm gonna start with this. It's not easy. It is work. It is reps, the day in, the day out. It's not easy. I don't believe I've ever had a convo with someone when they're trying to balance the work and family life to where it's like, “Oh, that was easy, you know, I just do this and they do this, and we're good to go.” No, it is constant conflict of schedules. It is sharing what's going on. It's the ups and downs. So I'd like to start with that: It's not easy. And if anyone ever tells you it is easy, please ask them how they're doing it, and then spread their wise words of wisdom to all of us. Because that's probably the first thing: It's not easy. Once you recognize that you can get past understanding like, “OK, I'm not alone in this, that this is not easy, and I can start talking and sharing my experiences and seeing from those who seem to have it together. What are they doing to make it work? So I start there. It's not easy. Second, you have to be a team. I think there's a lot of us that think that, and my wife definitely did initially, and that was on me, that she thought that my career was the most important, that what I did and how I executed the mission and where I was going, that that was the No. 1 priority. And I found it that's not the case. I found that's not the case, because, sure, when we didn't have kids yet, and we were in Tucson, it's a little easier, because I would go on my deployments, and she would go to the job, she would go to work, and she had and she supported that, because I was out there, you know, fighting the good fight, accomplishing a mission, doing everything the Air Force needed me to do. And that's what she knew was important for me. So she supported that through and throughout, and she supported it to where I imagined, to the sense of she didn't feel like she could speak to say things that maybe I would like in the sense of me doing my mission, or coming home from Afghanistan with some of my experiences. Ahe felt that maybe sometimes, that she didn't have a word to convey to like, “Hey, this really scared me.” Or, “Hey, when you were gone, I saw the news and I was frightened. And you know, when I saw this happen, I just wanted to reach out to you, and I just want to make sure you're OK.” And she never felt initially like that she could convey those feelings, because it might affect me. It might affect my, you know, mentality while being overseas and down range. So she held that in, she held it in. She kept strong. She put on the “I'm here to support you” and I feel bad, you know, thinking back on that, that I should have given her the space to like, “Tell me what you're feeling. Tell me what you're going through. I don't want you to, I don't want you to struggle in silence. If you know you see something or there's something that scares you, let me know.” And unfortunately, I didn't learn that lesson until way, way later in my career, because she'd always kept that strength in and even when we started having kids, she still did. I kick myself all the time now that— we got to California, in the U-2s, we had an incident down range to where they needed me to bump up my deployment out there, to get out there to take care of the situation. And I'd asked, I was like, “Well, how much sooner do you need me?” Because we had just had our first son. You know, the dynamic's changing. The family dynamic is changing, and especially with your first born. And they said, “We need you to leave in about a week.” Here I was once again. And I know we have kind of kind of mentioned that I was I was in the mean mentality I was in. I was gonna be a pilot's pilot. I was gonna get the mission done. I was going to do everything I could to prove myself, and if my country needs me to be out there in a week to take care of this mission, that my family and my wife will understand. And that was that was not the way I should look at it. It really wasn't. But because I was not seeing her as a teammate, and she held it in — and thank goodness we had her mother-in-law. We had some family come out and support with a new baby. But I could tell that was one of the first times to where looking back on it now that maybe I could have said, “Can you find someone else?” You know, maybe I should have what I'm doing, hopefully you're doing now and teaching others. You have to balance that family with mission and the prioritize what is truly important at that moment. And that's something I failed to do at that time. It would happen again later on, but thankfully— so when I got to the 6th Special Operations Squadron, and at this time, especially after we had our second child in California, the wife had mentioned more. She started coming out of the shell like, “Hey, I do need you a little bit more now. I need you, and I need to be able to express and convey what I do and don't like.” And I was listening, but I was not listening the way she needed me to listen. I was not being that teammate on my side. So I heard, “Hey, I just need more support with the family. So whatever career decision we make next, let's align that.” And I was in my head, I was like, “Yes, you're absolutely right.” That's why the 6th Special Operations Squadron, when I got that interview and I picked up, it was so important, because I had family in that area, and family could get to us easier. So I was thinking, “Awesome. I have the support system for you there. I got the assignment. You're going to be taken care of.” I can tell that's not yet what she was wanting. And I will credit good old Col. Valentino. I was spinning up to go to Lebanon with the team, and we're about to have our third child. And here I was once again, like, “Yep, gotta get back to the mission. Gotta show my value. Gotta get in there, do it.” And the wife understands. We have two kids already. We're gonna have a third. So we've already had two. We kind of know how this goes. We're good to go. But I could tell, once again, looking back, everything's— that she wasn't happy, but she was ready to put up that wall again, to be like, “OK, I have to support him. Have to support what he does, and I have to, because that's what the military is asking me. That's what this new community…” And then Col Valentino, he came down. He goes, “Hey, are you about to have another child?” And I was like, “Yes, sir.” He goes, “When?” And I gave him the date. And he goes, “Your deployment date is like, a month after that.” I was like, “Yes, sir. This is our third child. We'll be good to go. I have the support system for the wife now, and she'll be taken care of. Good to go.” And he goes, “No, you're staying home. I don't need you.” He goes, “Did you want to ask me if there's anyone else wants to go so you can be there for your wife and your family?” And that blew my mind, that just, I don't know. It came out of nowhere for someone in a leadership role to say, “No, I'm not gonna send you on this deployment. I want you to be there with your family.” And that held in tight, and from then on, everything changed, and how I led and how I would push the mission. But I wouldn't do it to the extent of, could I not help someone balance their family life with their mission? And that took too long for me to realize. So what I say to everyone out there, it's not easy, but you come home from a long day and you're mentally exhausted and the mission is not going good, or you're getting ready for deployment, take a moment, sit down and just talk with your teammate at home. You have to look at it as teammates. They are your partner. They will be just like I mentioned before. They will be your support system through thick and thin, because they've probably seen you at your worst, and they want you to be at your best. But you can't do that unless you take care of that home front and treat them as your teammate. Because I am still, to this day, trying my best to become the man that I hope that she sees in me and that she wants me to be one day, but I had to fail in seeing it back then so that could see it now. And I think that's one of these things I want to convey. Not easy, and they have to be your teammates. Naviere Walkewicz Thank you for sharing that. And I think to have a leader that showed you that, which is, now you've imprinted that in your leadership style. You're thinking about the airmen that you come across and how to help them navigate some of those tough choices, but doing it with a, you know, a bigger view of not just the mission, but, like, how do you fit in that with your family? I think that's so powerful, and I'm really glad you shared that, because I know that some of our listeners and our viewers, that's gonna resonate with them as well, because they're gonna remember a time when, “Wow, I didn't even ask if I didn't have to go, or if I didn't have to do this, just because I'm so used to jumping when you say, jump,” right? And I think sometimes it's OK. It's OK. Just a question, like, I'm willing and ready to jump. I just want to make sure is someone else able to do it too because of these reasons, right? So I love that you share that. Lt. Col. Steven Mount And those leaders have to know their people enough in that regard to also know because ultimately, when you get the mission, then yes, that's what we signed up for, yes. But those leaders know their people, and they know what situation they're in. For example, there's a few times in Special Operations to where we're going on another deployment. But we knew our people, and we knew that some did not have the balance at home, and things were not looking the best they could. “Hey, we can help you out. We can give you all the resources you need. We don't need you on this deployment.” But that takes good leaders, recognizing and taking care of their people and understanding that these individuals cannot be effective down range or where they go if their home life is not taken care of. So, I know that is something that's been talked about for all my leadership training for all the years, but actually applying it is going to start with our future leaders coming up to realize, know your people, know where you can take care of them so that they can take care of the mission. Naviere Walkewicz That's right. That's right. So this has been incredible. I think the underlying lesson that you shared with us is, obviously having belief in yourself and doing the work and proving your worth, so to speak. But I think it's also recognizing that support network. So if I may ask, you, I have two questions. The first one is, what are you doing to be a better leader every day? Yourself, like, what is something you are actually doing to be a better leader? Lt. Col. Steven Mount Oh my gosh. Well, I'm recognizing I know I'm not doing it right. Knowing that I'm about taking command already has the underlying nervousness and anxiety, and I realized taking command, why I have these emotions is because I'm afraid to fail, which that makes sense. That makes sense to any logical human being out there. That's like, yeah, I get that. But I have to realize, in that same token, it's OK to fail. It's OK to make mistakes. It's OK that some days you go in there, you're not gonna get it all right. This last year as a director of operations, I've walked out of that building, and there's days been like I didn't accomplish anything. I've messed things up. I didn't do this right. Why am I here? They could have found someone better. And then there were days where, like, yes, I did it, right? I got something accomplished. And on those days, I realized it's because I was taking care of the people and people's needs. And once again, when that happened, they were able to take care of the mission. And that's one of the things that every day I go into work and I ask myself, “Who can I help out? Who needs the motivational kick? Who needs someone to just talk with them? Who needs to share their story?” Because that's what leaders, ultimately, are. We take care of the people. And if I can go in there and just help one person every single day, I would like to think that that's a small success. So that's one thing I'm constantly working on. And it is an effort. It's not easy. It's not easy because you are taking so much and leaders, I don't care what level you're on, all the way from your very first flight command, all the way to your mission command, aircraft commander, all the way to where I am now. You're going to take a lot on your shoulders. You're going to bear, you know, the burden of others, pains, their grief, their successes, their failures. So I guess that's also answer that question. Get ready for that. OK? Because a good leader will do that. They will bear they will help hold the weight. They will support those who need it the most. And we got to do it day in, day out, the reps they have to. So I think I answered the first question, I apologize, was it was. Naviere Walkewicz The second question is coming. So you're good, you're good. OK. What's something that you know now after having your 17-plus years in the in the military, but also just your life experience — but what's something you know now that you would share with a leader to kind of shorten that timeframe of, like learning those painful things to be better, right? So what would be something you'd share? Lt. Col. Steven Mount Something I'd share to close that learning gap? Because once again, my call sign is Meathead— I learned lessons the hard way. Do your best to listen more than you talk. Do your best to just take the experiences of others, talk to others, but just listen. Just hear them. Just hear them. I believe that a lot of the things that I could have prevented may have already been told to me, or may have already been, you know, mentored to me, but I just didn't listen. Maybe they said something and “I was like, well, that doesn't jive with being cool or being a pilot, so I'm not gonna listen to that.” I'm pretty sure all of these lessons that hopefully either conveying or passing on, in a sense, I think I learned them early on. I just, I just didn't listen. So for all the leaders out there, do your best to listen, listen more than you talk. It will be wonders. Naviere Walkewicz Oh my gosh, that's just outstanding. And I what I really appreciate about that is, you know, you talked about how you're doing things to get better every day, but even just in the moment, you recognize like that's such an important piece of that is taking the time to listen and reflect so that you can actually really pick up on those cues, maybe, that someone needs your support. So yes, well, this has been incredible. As we wrap up today's episode, I keep coming back to something you said, which was all someone needs to do is just support you. Yeah. So here's the takeaway, leadership is found in how we show up for our people and how we believe in them, and how we remind them that they are capable for more than what they think they are. The question we can always ask ourselves today is, who needs me to believe in them right now? And you actually said that really well. So Col. Mount, I just want to thank you for joining us for this episode of Long Blue Leadership. Is there anything else you want to leave with our listeners today? Lt. Col. Steven Mount Yes. I don't think I'll ever be that leader that does one great act, and everyone's like, that's a great leader. I don't think I'll ever be that leader that gives like, one great speech, like, that's it. He nailed it. He's a great leader. No, if I'm gonna leave something with all of those you know at the Academy and the leaders in the Air Force now — which, by the way, thanks all of you. Me too, man, thank you for your service. You have no idea how much the world needs us right now, so you get out there and see it. So sorry. That was an aside. But thank you to everyone who's at the Academy now, who have served, whose families have served and will continue to serve. But one thing I'll leave to all those young leaders: Your leadership is defined by the acts, the million acts every day, not just by one act, not just by, like I said, not just by one amazing thing that you do. It's defined on you being there, and a million acts per day over a lifetime of your career, of showing up, showing that you care. That's huge, showing that you're fair and consistent. And they will see that your people will see that that those million acts day in day out, of how you treat them, and how you present yourself as a leader. And they will watch. They will watch, and if they can see that you care, and if they can see that you are doing those million acts day in, day out, and you're in there and you're in the grind and you're in the mud with them, they will give you everything, they will, and it's amazing to see, it really is, but that starts with you as the leader. So yeah, that's it, it's those million acts every day of a lifetime career that shows that you're a leader. Naviere Walkewicz Well, we are so glad that you're out there leading and influencing so many. We're grateful for all of your years and more that you will do. Thank you so much. Lt. Col. Steven Mount Thank you so much for the opportunity. I really, really enjoyed this. Thank you. Naviere Walkewicz Good. Thank you for joining us for this edition of Long Blue Leadership. The podcast drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on all your favorite podcast apps. Send your comments and guest ideas to us at socialmedia@usafa.org, and listen to past episodes at longblueleadership.org. KEYWORDS Leadership, Resilience, Mentorship, Adoption / Family Foundation, Support Network, Perseverance, Tough Conversations, Mission & Family Balance, Trust, Listening The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
In this special presentation, Lt. Gen. Tony Bauernfeind '91, USAFA's 22nd superintendent, shares an inside look into cadet development and answers graduate questions. Hosted by Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99, this episode dives into the Academy's mission and how it is preparing our nation's future warfighters. FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Guest: Lt. Gen. Tony Bauernfeind '91 | Host: Lt. Col. (Ret.)Navire Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz This special edition of the Air Force Gradcast is a production of the Long Blue Line Podcast Network, presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation. I'm your host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. We're honored to feature the superintendent of the United States Air Force Academy, Lt. Gen. Tony Bauernfeind, Class of '91. In this presentation, Gen. Bauernfeind will share important updates on current initiatives and developments at our Air Force Academy. Following his remarks, he and I will sit down for a conversation, during which he'll respond to questions submitted by graduates in our alumni community. So now, without further ado, Gen. Bauernfeind. Thank you for being here, sir. Gen. Bauernfeind Well, Naviere, thank you so much for allowing us to come and share our story of our wonderful Air Force Academy. And thank you as well to the Association of Graduates and the Foundation for all of the incredible support that we receive to develop our future leaders into the warrior leaders that we need on Day 1 in our Air Force and Space Force. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, sir, we are grateful you're here, and we can't wait to hear what you're able to share with us today, sir, so we can jump ahead if you're ready. Gen. Bauernfeind Wonderful. So I would like to share with you an updated mission brief of where we are going at the United States Air Force Academy. And during this time, I'd like to share not only our leadership team that's taking on the transformation that has been mandated, but also to update our alumni on our mission, our vision, our priorities and our mission sets, as well as talk about how we are creating warfighters, leaders of character and quality, and critical thinkers, and provide an update of how we are transforming this amazing institution to develop those warrior leaders that we need to keep our adversaries at bay. So as always, I'd like to start all briefings with a little video that highlights what our cadets are doing and our incredible public affairs team and video team put together the following video that shows what our cadets have been doing over the last six months... ...So you can see that our cadets have been absolutely busy over the last few months, and I can attest that this summer is they brought the problems up even more and are bringing even more energy to their training, their education, their development. But let me first talk about the amazing team at the senior leadership levels at the United States Air Force Academy, because we cannot do what we're doing without this incredible team. So first, we're welcoming reader Gen. Nicholas Evans as our new vice superintendent, coming out as the 18th Wing commander at Kadena Air Base, bringing a wonderful operational experience to bear, as well as academic bona fides to be our vice superintendent. Our command chief remains Command Chief John Alsvig and our commandant remains to be Brig. Gen. Marks and Col. Steve Hasstedt is our acting dean as we work to bring a new dean into bear. Ms. Gail Colvin is our stalwart chief of staff, with her wisdom from the Class of '80 that keeps us moving forward. Ms. Jen Block is our executive athletic director. Mr. Nate Pine is our director of athletics, and our brand new wing commander, the 10th Air Base Wing, Col. Ahave Brown. And we all know that nothing happens at USAFA without the 10th Air Base wing providing the foundational support. But also Col. Taylor from the 306 Flying Training Wing, and Col. Silva is our space detachment commander, and it's important that we have all those leaders that are helping us transform USAFA. And to that transformation, we talk about our updated mission statement that was approved last fall. And that updated mission statement is that “USAFA's mission is to forge leaders of character motivated to a lifetime of service and developed to lead our Air Force and Space Force as we fight and win our nation's wars.” And for the alumni, as we went through this mission statement development, we realized that there are many activities we take on at the United States Air Force Academy. There's education, there's training, there's motivation, inspiration, development. And we realized that we are taking the most amazing women and men from all four corners of this United States, and we're bringing them here as raw materials, and we are taking them through high-stress military, academic and athletic programs to forge them into something stronger than what they were when they showed up. And those are the leaders of character. We also wanted to make sure that we highlighted that it's about delivering a lifetime of service to our nation. It doesn't mean that every graduate needs to do 34-plus years in active duty like I'm currently doing, but continue to give back, whether that's in active duty, the Guard the Reserve, to your community in the defense industry, as an elected official or as a key supporter in our alumni networks — keep serving our nation. And then finally, an acknowledgement that we, alongside our teammates at West Point and Annapolis, have a very special mandate that we are developing those warrior leaders that will fight and win our nation's wars. While we hope that we will achieve peace through strength and deter our adversaries, we must always be ready when the nation calls and we will go forward and deliver victory for our nation. So it's important in our mission, but a mission will only take us so far. And the next step is acknowledging that we must have a vision. What is our North Star? And our North Star is we will remain and continue to be the nation's premier service academy. That we're bringing in rigorous, adversary-focused military training, military training that achieves a standard, that achieves a requirement, and not just training for training sake. But also maintain our level as a nationally recognized academic program with highly competitive athletics, and acknowledging that for us to deliver on those four, we must continue to sustain a world-class installation. But more importantly, continue to bring in professional and dedicated permanent party into our faculty. Our coaches, our headquarters, our installation support requires our outstanding permanent party. And so our vision moves us forward. And from our mission and our vision, we have established three key priorities, and those priorities will guide our decision making. But let me take your attention to the bottom first. The bottom is our foundational aspect, that we build all of our aspects upon our service core values of our Air Force and our Space Force of integrity first, service before self, excellence in all we do, courage, character, connection and commitment. And those we build upon further foundationally to acknowledge that we are in the military and all aspects of military operations activities require a strict adherence to standard. What is the task that we are executing? What are the conditions on which we will execute those tasks? And what standards do we expect, especially in high end warfare, where our standards are so tight. We also acknowledge that what is special about us is our Honor Code. It is foundational to our character, and we'll talk more about that as we build upon this. But realizing that the Class of '59 that established our Honor Code. It has been foundational to the development of our leaders of character and quality as a board, and then adding into the fact that leaders who built lethal warfighting teams — they do it from a position of respect and teamwork, that they take their team and they support them, they hold them accountable, but they push them to rise above what they could think they could personally achieve. And how do we build those future leaders that are going to take teammates from all four corners of this United States and make sure every single teammate is seen, heard and valued and can give everything possible to the mission at hand? And that leads us to our priorities. That our priorities are we are here to forge warfighters to win, to inspire leaders of character and quality, and finally, to motivate critical thinkers to adapt, because all three are important. And that takes us to our mission sets, because those three priorities span across everything we do in a cadet's journey at the United States Air Force Academy. And the first is acknowledging the military training aspect. That military training goes beyond just learning how to put a uniform on, just how to march correctly, but also understanding how to operate inside of Air Force and Space Force norms and take on those military training activities that our Air Force and Space Force are taking on right now with Ready Airmen Training and the ability to execute agile combat deployment. And that's activities like being able to shoot, move, communicate, medicate and automate, but also acknowledging that we also must have that world-class academic program that challenges our future leaders not what to think, but how to think, and to do that from a warfighting-focused curriculum that is very STEM focused, but also leans in hard to how we can leverage the incredible intellect that these cadets are bringing in today and unleash them on some of the hardest Air Force and Space Force problems through our research programs as we lean into it. And then finally, as we talk about our competitive athletics, that athletics is a key aspect of the cadet's journey, whether it be through our 30 incredible intercollegiate sports teams, our intramural programs, our physical education programs, or finally our physical fitness tests that demonstrate the warrior ethos that is being expected of a military service academy, and it's important that we look across those. But let me talk about a little further of our priorities from those three lenses. The first is the aspect of warfighters win, of how we're bringing in training such as shoot, move, communicate, medicate and automate. And I've heard some teammates are going, “Why are we doing this ground focused training?” And at the end of the day, it's not ground focused training, it's joint force training. This is where our Air Force is going. That we still need to be able to succeed in the air, space, cyber domains, but we must also deliver excellence in these domains. With shoot, I requested that all of our cadets now become qualified in their long gun, the M4, and their sidearm, the M18, every single year. So now they'll have the confidence of their weapons when they have to go forward into harm's way. The same with move and communicate. Can they understand the aspects of mission command, especially in future fights where we may not have the best connectivity with our highest headquarters? Will they understand commander's intent and still be able to generate the combat power we need to keep our adversaries on their heels? Finally, to medicate. Over the last few decades, we have benefited from the golden hour, where we had such dominance that when we had a teammate isolated or injured, we would have medical care a rescue capability to them inside the hour. Future battlefields will likely not give us that luxury. So we must teach our future leaders those advanced medical capabilities to take care of their injured teammates while they're continuing to generate combat power. And finally, as we have seen from the Iranian wars and the Ukrainian wars, automation is here and part of modern warfare. And so how are we going to bring automation capabilities to our future leaders so they can develop the new TTPs that we are working through. And again, thank you to the Association of Graduates and Foundation, because you all provided the seed funding for our first automation efforts this summer. So thank you so much. And let me dig in a little further on why warfighters win. And from our president and our secretary of defense, it has been very clear that they want us to establish peace through strength, that we must develop our ways in three areas: to restore the warrior ethos, to rebuild our military and to reestablish deterrence. And we have gotten that guidance very clear from our leadership, and we will prepare our future leaders in that mind. And we have added that over the last year by bringing in year round warfighting training. So not only during the summer periods, but also through the academic year, are we asking our future warrior leaders to take on the military mission, the academic mission and the athletic mission as we move forward. And as discussed, it is directly aligned to our Air Force with Ready Airman Training and our agile combat employment. And over the last year, we took our baby steps. We're not where we need to be, but I can tell you I'm proud of how far we've come, because we moved forward with energy and violence through the fall and spring culminating exercises. I'm proud of how far we've come, but now for this year, we're gonna enter into the walk phase, because we have more to go. And with that in mind, there's been conversations of recognition and promotion, and that is tied not only to our leadership development, but also to our warfighting training. And it's an acknowledgement that for every year you at the Air Force Academy, we are purposely developing you and increasing your capabilities. And so we are going to provide the expectations for your year, whether you're four-degree, three-degree, two-degree or first-degree — a firstie — and you must meet those training standards, and if you do not meet the training standards, then we are not going to recognize you for your past work, but if you meet our standards, then we are going to recognize you for the good work and promote you to the next grade. But the ultimate promotion being a Second Lieutenant in our Air Force and Space Force as it goes forward. Over the last year, there are teeth of this. We did have 153 cadets that were not recognized due to not meeting the standards, but we are now providing them the options over the summer and this fall to now meet the standards as we move forward. Also this year, focusing on warfighting, is acknowledging that we must arm the cadets to be the instructors. Last year, we did it very quickly. Now we're going to take advantage of our incredible cadets, just like our cadets do exceptional things — teaching each other how to fly, teaching other each other how to jump during our freefall program — but now we are working through the cadet warfighter instructor course, a beta course, where we will teach cadets to be those instructors inside of our squadrons in the academic year, to take on how to teach, how to shoot, to move, to communicate, automate and medicate. And we are one more week left in our inaugural cadet warfighter instructor course. I know we will learn much from this beta iteration, but I'm excited to see what we learned from this as we go into the academic year and unleash these cadets and train ourselves. We're also very appreciative from the Foundation for the establishment of the Institute for Future Conflict. And the Institute for Future Conflict has been around for a couple of years and has already forced us to focus and think differently. And I would offer to you the reason behind that is because they are focused on our adversaries. So I like to call them our adversary focused disruptors. They are going to bring ideas to bear that force us to change the way we develop our cadets for the future, because they're looking at what our adversaries are doing. And as such, we made the decision to elevate them into Headquarters USAFA, so they can have a wider impact, not only within the dean of faculty, but also within the Cadet Wing and the Athletic Department, so we can ensure that we are bringing those disruptive thoughts and putting them into in place so we prepare our leaders for a very uncertain world, to include bringing realism into the training that our cadets are taking on. We're also acknowledging academically, there's more that we have to do with our intellect. And over the last year, we have added three additional warfighting minors, one on quantum, one on aerospace materials, and we're in the final stages of establishing a warfighting minor on future conflict. Hopefully that we will be able to start providing that to our cadets over the next year, as we went into that so very excited to the growth in our academic options. And then finally, athletically, we're updating our PT standards, and we're adding additional PE courses for our future leaders. Our future leaders — we will increase water survival, especially when we look to the future and the regions where we expect to potentially have conflict, increased water survival is important — as well as increased combatives, and we're still in the final stages of planning of how we can bring a team focused final warfighting capstone physical education course that brings all of that physical education together for a team-focused event for our firsties, but still in the planning stages of that. And as discussed, updating our PT standards to align with our Air Force and our Space Force, with an acknowledgement that simply what we were doing is adding minimums to each of the caveats to ensure that you must pass each individual event while also meeting a score-based event as we move forward. Again, aligning with our Air Force and Space Force. Now, as we transform, it's not just about warfighters to win. It's also about leaders of character and quality. As I like to say, it's developing leaders who do the right thing the right way, even if it's unpopular, because we must have leaders that are willing to stand up and do the right thing for the formation. And we focused on that. We have focused on reinforcing standards and accountability. While initially it was permanent party coming in fairly strong to establish the standards and accountability, what we quickly saw from our amazing future generation was cadets going, “We've got this. We will establish it. We will uphold our standards. We will uphold our accountability.” And to me, that's very important to see that our next generation is taking ownership of that key leadership aspect, to even include honor. As many know, we had a pretty significant honor violation last year. The bad news is that occurred. The good news is it was the cadets themselves who came forward and said, “This happened, and this is our way forward.” As in all situations, though, anytime you point a finger at somebody, three fingers pointing back at yourself, we realized that institutionally, we had probably lowered the standards too far. We didn't expect enough, and we had parsed the Honor Code. And we made the decision to return to our roots and say, “No, the Honor Code is holistic. It will not be parsed.” But we do acknowledge that these amazing men and women that come from all four corners are coming to us in different stages of their character development, and so the sanctions that come from an honor violation for somebody with us for a few weeks or a couple months may be far different than the sanctions of somebody that are weeks or months out from commissioning and graduation. So ensuring that we have a tiered sanction system to deal with our honor violations. I'm very proud of the ownership that our cadets took with our honor system, and we are reinforcing their efforts as we move forward. We've also pivoted strongly to a four-class system. My observation was is through time at the Air Force Academy, we've ebbed and flowed from a four-class leadership development system to a fourth-class leadership development system. I would offer that we had gone to the point where the majority of training and focus was on the four-degrees, when we are blessed to have these our future leaders for 47 months, and we should be developing them the entire 47 months. And so we have developed the fourth-class leadership system, where for their four-degree year, we will focus them on being good teammates and followers. For the three-degree year, we will focus on them being good frontline engaged supervisors, two-degrees as team leaders and firsties as unit leaders, representing those roles in our Air Force from cadet squadron commander to DO, to executive officer, to A1 through A6 staff positions and flight commander and taking on those responsibilities. And again, just like we talked about work by training, there's assessment mechanisms for each of these that they must meet leadership assessments that will go into whether or not they are recognized and promoted to the next grade, as it moves forward. We executed the first year. Last year, I would offer that it was successful, but we've learned much from the process, and as we go into the second year, I think we're going to be able to go even further with our four-class leadership and development. We've also doubled down on discipline, that standards and accountability are important, and if you fail to meet our standards, then you must be held accountable, not only with punitive aspects, but also with rehabilitative aspects. It's a two-edged pincer movement as we went forward, and from my time at the Academy, I will offer to you, while I may not have enjoyed it at the time, I benefited greatly from both, because it forced me to reflect upon what got me in that situation and how I can take ownership of my own development as we move forward. So that is one of the aspects we return to. And then finally, for our National Character and Leadership Symposium: Let's focus on those character elements that we find through warfighting. And so last fall's was focused on, how are we going to develop warfighters to win? And then for next year, we're going to focus on the courage required to overcome adversity in a warfighting environment. And so I'm very excited as we get the speakers identified for both the fall, a shorter fall iteration, and the normal spring iteration, sharing those speakers with the wider alumni environment. And then finally, talking about those critical thinkers to adapt. I jokingly tell our cadets that, since I was in the '90s, we got to solve all the easy problems, and all that is left are all the wicked hard problems, but we need those critical thinkers to adapt, because they are going to bring the ingenuity, they're going to bring the innovation, and what I've challenged them is they also have to bring the courage to challenge the status quo. Too many times in our military, when we ask why we do something, if the answer is, “We've always done it that way,” then maybe we need to rethink and understand, are there better ways to do it? And I can tell you, our cadets bring that to bear. And so for this year, we're really focused on cadet empowerment and responsibility. Last year with the mandate, we moved very quickly, and we were more directive in nature. And what we heard loud and clear is that cadets hurdled over our expectations. What we heard loud and clear from them was, “We want to control the way forward.” And so how do we empower them more? And how do we make it clear that they are responsible not only for their mission, but their people? And adding to that of spending more time with them with these changes of why are we doing this change, and making sure that they understand the rest of the story. You may not always like the why, but if you have an appreciation of the why, its foundation will be able to execute mission command, because you now understand commander's intent, and you now can go, “I know the why. We can keep moving forward, because we can move forward with that.” We're also focusing on operationalizing all of the United States Air Force Academy, bringing that operational mindset to bear, from whether it would be establishing an A2 directorate in the headquarters and the cadet wing and in all cadet squadrons, and the DA2 director being our intelligence directorate, so that we can start to bring in classified intelligence briefings and give them not only to a permanent party, but to our future leaders. And we started that last January to great success, so that our future leaders can start to understand not only our and our allies capabilities, but our adversary capabilities and how we will conduct our joint warfighting aspects as we move forward. And it's important that we continue to bring in those operational matters so we prepare the cadets of today for the second lieutenants of tomorrow that can seamlessly nest in to how our Air Force and our Space Force operates. And that's a nicer way of saying is some of the USAFA unique things we've done— we probably need to think about how we're doing that in our Air Force and Space Force. We're also doubling down that cadet squadrons are the unit of action, just like it is in our Air Force, that the squadron is the unit of action. And it's tough at USAFA where you may prioritize your IC team, or your major, or your club, but at the end of the day, it's going to be the squadron that succeeds together as a team. And so we are focusing on making sure that we are reinforcing what the cadet squadrons are doing. They are going to go through their military training together. They're going to go through their culminating exercises together, same as recognition and promotion. And that's important as we focus on the four-class system of those teammates, followers, frontline engaged supervisors, team leaders, unit leaders, but also acknowledging that we must empower cadet leaders to own the responsibility of their units. And I recently sat down with cadet squadron commanders and their special staffs and said, “Congratulations, you're the cadet commanders. You are responsible for two things: your mission and your people. It's not just about marching at the front of a formation. It's about executing the mission you've been given, whether that mission be military, academics or athletics, and taking care of your people.” And as such, we have established special staffs inside of each cadet squadron, every wing in the Air Force, most groups and many squadrons have special staff to both support the unit, but more importantly, advise the commander, because the commander is the one who's ultimately responsible for their people. And so we are bringing cadet special staff — which they may not be the subject matter experts in equal opportunity, integrated prevention response, spiritual matters or medical matters. They are there to support the squadron, advise the commander and have that connectivity to our subject matter experts, whether it be our chaplaincy, whether that be our amazing medical group and cadet clinic, our amazing SAPR team and all the helping agencies across USAFA to make sure that we can support all of our cadets going through a high-demand developmental program at the United States Air Force Academy. And the twist on that is again, saying, “Commanders, you are the ones who are responsible.” And now let's give you the tools to be successful as the permanent party are there to advise and oversight, empower our cadets even more. And then the final one is a return to decorum training. We conducted a beta test last year to success, and now we're looking to see how we can bring forward that decorum training for the entirety of the Cadet Wing. I am not this is not a return to the days of wine pairings, you know, but it is an acknowledgement that as an officer in our Air Force and Space Force, when you go to events, you're not only representing yourself, you're representing your team, you're representing your unit. And what are those decorum skills you need to have at events so that you can develop networks with teammates that might be outside your normal operational circle, or how do you ensure how you engage with other teammates so you can learn more about the world you're in? And so it's important that we establish that decorum focus and looking forward to how we can squeeze that in into the complicated lives of all of our cadets as we move forward. And then, just to reinforce on the critical thinking, I've already talked about the three minors we added, but I'm proud to say that we're in close coordination right now with Gen. Tullos at Air University and about to sign the memorandum of understanding where we will start a beta test for offering master's degree classes at the United States Air Force Academy, with the long-term intent of offering master's degrees at United States Air Force Academy under the Air Force Institute of Technology certification. So we have much to learn, but the doorway is open, and I can tell you from looking at so many of our cadets that come in with 20, 30, 40 college credit hours already, I think we have cadets that are ready to take on that journey, and I look forward to giving an update on that after we get through some of our initial how does this work process. So just to summarize: Our mission, our vision, our priorities are delivering what we need. And it's those warrior leaders that are ready on Day 1 in our Air Force and Space Force. And thanks to our amazing team, whether it be in the senior leader team, but more importantly, those incredible permanent party that are working long hours, whether it's in Fairchild Hall, Sijan Hall, Vandenberg Hall, in the tunnels, in the heat plant, in the Child Development Center, down at Clune Arena, out in Jacks Valley — our permanent party are crushing it, and it's important because our nation deserves the best leaders that we can give the 330,000 airmen and guardians that are standing watch for our nation. Thank you. Naviere Walkewicz Thank you for sharing the mission brief. I think many of us as graduates think we know what happens at the Academy, but you actually sharing what you accomplished in just a year is a bit mind blowing, sir. Gen. Bauernfeind Thank you. And I, at times, am concerned at how fast we are moving, but I also know that we must move this fast. The adversaries are watching us, and they are choosing when is the right time to test our nation. And so in order to achieve peace through strength, we must display that deterrence, that warfighting ethos, that warfighting capability. So we keep our adversaries waking up every single morning going, “Today is not today to test the United States.” Naviere Walkewicz Yes, sir, that is right on point. Yes, sir. Well, I would like to thank you in advance for taking on additional questions from our alumni and our graduate community. So if we might start, general, with some of the information across various channels that cuts about to our academics and the Department of Faculty, what would you be willing to share about the civilian workforce reductions and any next to the Academy's academic faculty? Gen. Bauernfeind First and foremost, the reduction of civilians is not just civilian faculty. It's through all civilians at the United States Air Force Academy, and as we're tracking, throughout the entire Department of Defense. What makes it a little more challenging at the United States Air Force Academy is we have so many different civilian teammates, from firefighters to childcare workers to coaches to headquarters staff, personnel and faculty. And as we lean into the aspect, the conversations about all of our civilian teammates. The first challenge that we faced is historically, the United States Air Force Academy has been over our civilian paid budget, and we've received great support from the Department of Air Force to address our over execution. This year is a little different, and so that has to be a baseline consideration as we understand that— that we have to hire and maintain civilian teammates within the budget that the American public has given us as a lean forward. And to that point, thank you to the Association of Graduates and the Foundation, as well as other Academy-focused foundations that have provided volunteer and funded volunteer support to give us that additional margin of excellence that helps us mitigate this matter. With respect to fiscal year '25, our Air Force is going through a reduction of civilian personnel to the tune of 5,000 billets. Of those 5,000 billets, the portion of the United States Air Force Academy was a part of was a 140 billets. And as we have moved through that reduction of 140 billets, we identified 104 billets as we went through our prioritization that were unencumbered or empty, but lower priority. Unfortunately, there are 36 billets that were encumbered, so someone inside of that billet as we move forward. And the goal with that is to continually work over the coming months of how we can move teammates laterally into open billets, either at the United States Air Force Academy or other locations. So we keep their expertise inside of the greater Air Force, Space Force enterprise, and our A1 team continues to work that aspect. But it's also making sure that we're being very clear with our teammates that when those billets become unfunded, at some point without funding, we're having to pay for that billet via other means. And so it's important for us to have frank conversations with our teammates, to say, “Update your resume. Start looking. At some point this will move forward.” With respect to our faculty members, 16 took advantage of the government's deferred resignation program, which was a well-funded early retirement program which allowed them to leave in the spring under and basically on admin leave and retain their pay to later in the fall/winter timeframe as that moves forward. We also had three that already had planned retirements, so they were moving forward. Unfortunately, we see a hiring freeze so no backfill. But also three whose terms are many of our senior faculty, our term employees, at the end of their term came. And so we have backfilled them with active-duty and Reserve military faculty to keep our academic progress going forward. And thanks to our dean and their team, they are, you know, quickly adjusting, but they are making the changes they need to ensure that we continue to offer the majors that we promised through the Class of '26 and continue to offer the courses as we move forward. For the fall semester, in addition to the three minors we've added, we've also added four additional classes, and there are 10 classes of the 753 in our course of instruction, there are 10 that we will not offer in the fall semester, but we will continue to still move forward. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, sir, thank you for that. You talked about backfills. Can you talk about some of the most important competencies for those instructors, as they were backfilling these positions right? Gen. Bauernfeind As I testified to the Senate earlier this spring, the two most important things to me inside of our classroom is: One is subject matter expertise, and we value the subject matter expertise brought to us by our professors, associate professors, our assistant professors, our permanent professors, our senior military faculty, and the depth they provide, initially with a master's degree, but more importantly, those Ph.D.s that were an extreme depth of that subject matter expertise. But also as a military service academy— that operationally relevant experience, how do they apply what they're learning in the classroom into their futures in the Air Force and Space Force, whether that be in labs on operational units and future battlefields, and how they can connect that to the future. And we have many of our civilian faculty are also veterans, who are able to bring that strong connection to bear as it moves forward. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, sir. Well, you mentioned you were adding a couple a few minors. Have there been any majors that have been removed from the program, and has this affected our accreditation in any way? Gen. Bauernfeind No, ma'am, no majors have been impacted during this time. Every single year, we go through a curriculum review, and we have a curriculum review committee where we will adjust as we move forward based upon guidance we receive from the Air Force and Space Force, but also what demand signals we're seeing from our cadets. You know what they're signing up for. But that is just an annual aspect to make sure that we have the right instructor core to support the curriculum we need to develop and educate our future leaders what the Air Force and Space Force is expecting. But zero majors have been eliminated from the United States Air Force Academy. Naviere Walkewicz Thank you, sir for clearing that up. Gen. Bauernfeind Oh, and accreditation. We're in a good spot with accreditation. We maintain continual conversation with our accrediting bodies, whether it be the Higher Learning Commission or several of the engineering- or STEM-focused accrediting bodies such as ABET, we're still in a good spot. In fact, this year, we just approved our quality initiative, which is a key aspect to sustaining not only our accreditation, but showing that we're continuing to improve ourselves, and that quality initiative will focus strongly on data science, throughout all of our curriculum. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, sir. I think that's wonderful. I know a lot of graduates were, you know, maybe didn't have all the information, so I think that's wonderful that you just shared that. Something interesting you talked about your brief was some master's, a beta testing for a master's program, working with AFIT. Can you expand a bit more about that? And then do you see the Academy becoming a five-year institution, or we will stay four years, 47 months? Gen. Bauernfeind Right now, I believe that we will still stay a 47-month program because our academic program is 47 months; our athletic program is 47 months, and most importantly, our leadership development and military program is 47 months. For the AFIT program, the vision is — these amazing young Americans come in with so much academic credit. Many of them now are part of the Martinson Scholar Program. And thanks to Mr. Martinson's great support, we have a program that can focus on them going even further. What we can offer them now, the majority are taking multiple majors and multiple minors. What if, in the future, you didn't want to do multiple majors or minors, but you want to go and start on your master's degree, which many other institutes of higher learning are offering in a parallel aspect? And so in conversation with Gen. Tullos, how can we start allowing cadets as early as their junior year start taking master's programs and achieve what would be required? Initial assessment is we will have some that can probably achieve it in 47 months, but probably the greater group will need to stay the Academy for maybe six or 12 more months as a second lieutenant to finish up their AFIT courseware. So they would stop their 47-month USAFA program, but continue with their master's program in the classroom in Fairchild and finish out their master's here. Is the vision— and we're working through this. I want to be very clear that this is beta. We have a lot to learn in this. And from my perspective, as I work with the Air Force to get greater support for this, this is going to be a strong cost saver for the Air Force. When our Air Force officers go to get master's degree, as a general rule, they are out of their operational career field for two years as they go to execute their 18-month AFIT program, plus two associated PCSs. Now we show not only a time saving, but a cost savings. And now these second lieutenants are entering, a portion of them, are entering their air force or Space Force with a master's degree. And it is not uncommon for many of our second lieutenants right now to even start their initial training, depending on what training is available until the spring of the next year after they graduate. So I see a strong promise, but we've got a lot of work to do to make it a reality. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, sir. Well, that's creative and innovative thinking right there. I think that we're very excited to hear more about that, especially as the beta testing moves forward. Sir, maybe we can move into the warfighting realm. Graduates have been very interested in the renewed focus on warfighting that you've taken over the past year. What recent programs or military training taking place at USAFA right now are really supporting this development of the warfighter. Ready to lead on Day 1? Gen. Bauernfeind So I believe we've always had a strong foundation of warfighting training, whether it be our airmanship programs, our powered flight programs, our jump programs, our special warfare programs and basic cadet training and cadet survival. But we're building upon that, and we're adding to those as great examples. As discussed earlier, if we can fight for the ammunition, we will have every single cadet qualify on both weapons every single year. The Class of '29 for the M18, the pistol, they qualified at a rate at about 65%. For the M4, the long gun, at a rate of 93%. I'm very proud of those numbers, because many of those young men and women— that was the first time they touched a weapon in their lives. And now, if they do it three more times before they graduate, those qualification rates are going to skyrocket, and they're going to have the confidence, when they deploy into harm's way, of their weapons. Additionally, thanks to the great work by the Cadet Wing, we have received 4,000 sets of chemical gear. And so not only in basic training, are they learning how to establish a forward operating base, defend it, but we're going past the days of where we walked into a tent, took our mask off and then dealt with the wonderful fluids that came out of our bodies. But now, going forward, to how are you going to conduct ATSO operations, or the ability to survive and operate in deployed locations with chemical gear on? And we're very proud to partake in some of that training with the basic cadets, and they are really taking to understanding what is required. And then the final aspect is, as discussed, the cadet warfighter instructor course, is acknowledging that to be really good at those items, we need some subject matter expertise. But the subject matter expertise required to lead, train and certify 4,000 cadets every year, we have to rely on cadet leaders, and as discussed, they're in the field as we speak in the inaugural cadet warfighter instructor course. And I look forward to seeing the feedback of how they will come back and do the squadrons. And tying that back to the cadets wanting more ownership of their training — the intent is 12 cadets inside of each cadet squadron that will now take on the responsibility through the academic year of that warfighter training that we will assess in the fall CULEX, and the ultimate assessment in the spring CULEX. Naviere Walkewicz Sir, it really shows how you're building that expertise within the squadron to support the squadron commander so they really are taking care of their people. I think that's outstanding. Gen. Bauernfeind And very excited about it. And I just want to say thank you again, because it was due to the generosity of the Foundation that got us the seed to start the automation, with 29 Group 2, the smaller UAVs, as we see automation and all monitor warfighting, unleashing the cadets on how they're going to use those UAVs to defend their forward operating bases, to understand what's across the ridgeline as they move forward. And very excited to see where the cadets will take us in this, because I'm sure they're gonna be far more innovative than my generation. Naviere Walkewicz Our generation, sir, yes, sir. Well, you talked about the four-class system and I think that was really relevant for our graduates to hear. How are cadets feeling motivated through this process? And have you seen them evolve over the past year since you started implementing that? Gen. Bauernfeind I think the first aspect was— it took them time to truly understand what we were laying out as it went forward. And every year we do this, we will get a little more advanced at the end of the day. I think our four-degrees understood it. That was good. It was that they understood what it meant to be a teammate. What it meant to be a teammate, follower, and that was an easier aspect to develop them through. The team leaders at the senior NCO level for the two-degrees and the firsties as unit leaders, they started understanding that. The biggest challenge we saw was with the three-degrees. What does it mean to be a frontline, engaged supervisor? And we have to troop lead them through, “This is what it means to be a frontline, engaged supervisor.” That they are your subordinate. But to take best care of your people, you should know where they're from. You should know about their parents. You should know their dog's name. You should know where their birthday is. You should know when their next chemistry test is, when their next PT test is. And while you may not be able to tutor them on chemistry, you can gather and motivate them for, “Hey, if the PT test is three weeks out, let's go run together. Let's go get on the pull up bar together. Let's, you know, be engaged.” And the more you know your teammates, what I offer to you, whether it be in morning formation, noon meal formation, at the tables at Mitchell Hall, in the halls of your squadron, inside of 30 seconds you're gonna see your teammates, your subordinate, and you're gonna know if they're gonna have a good day or bad day, because you're close enough to know, just quickly, OK, they're gonna have a great day or something's going on. “Let's go take a walk. Let's figure out what's driving you down. And how can I, as a frontline engaged supervisor, start taking barriers out of your way?” Naviere Walkewicz I mean, I can only imagine that giving them more pride, even now that they understand, “This is how I can be a frontline supervisor,” when you give us very specific examples. Well, if we might shift gears a little bit to admissions and graduation. Since we just had a class join us, and we had a class recently graduate, maybe you can tell us how the Class of '29 how they're faring so far. Gen. Bauernfeind The Class of '29 are doing great. I am impressed by their professionalism. I'm impressed by their energy. And as you saw, as we just did the recent march back, they were loud and proud. That was really good as it went forward. And for the Class of '29, I'm proud to report that they are faring very well. Just so everybody knows, we had over 9,000 completed applications. We offered 1,411 offers of admission, and 1,112 took the oath on I-Day as it moved forward. We had cadets from every single state and territories of Guam and Puerto Rico, as well as 12 international cadets that joined us. Of those, 117 from Prep School came up the Hill. And then 76 are, you know, part of a prior Long Blue Line as it's coming forward as it goes. Of the Class of '29, 55% were in the top 10% of their class, and 96 were all invited on varsity sports. Right now we are, as coming out of basic training, of 1,095 and during that time, they're still going strong. We did have some teammates that didn't have a full appreciation of what military life was, or may not have been as impassioned about the Academy as their parents, and so we've parted ways with a few small numbers. But during basic training, I can proudly say— we talked about the qualifications on the weapons, but also say they took their very first PFT test, and looking back over the last five years, they, on average, scored 15 points higher than the last five years. And that's a testament to two teams, I would offer to you, well, not only the cadets themselves, who had to do it, but all of our admissions team that's out there saying, “Hey, congratulations, you've been admitted. Start preparing now.” But also our athletic director, athletic department team that was out there giving them good, focused training to prepare them for those physical fitness tests. And they just took PFT No. 2 a couple days ago, and we're accessing the data but all indications are it's trending up. Naviere Walkewicz No, yes, sir. Those are outstanding numbers. As a country, we're seeing admission rates and the challenge of getting the best of the best into the door, the fact that we had such wonderful numbers coming in, and we're attriting very low, I think it's something we should be proud of. Gen. Bauernfeind I'm very proud of it, but acknowledge it's a tough— it's a knife fight to get the best of the brightest, and so thanks to Air Education and Training Command and Accessions Command, we are going to try a new marketing contract this year to further make sure that the amazing young Americans throughout all four corners truly understand the opportunity in front of them with the Air Force Academy, and make sure they're aware of it. So I'm excited to see how that marketing campaign goes to even up our numbers, even a little bit more. Naviere Walkewicz Awesome. Yes, sir. Well, sir, in the realm of athletics, last year, you shared an emphasis for cadet support and participation at more of our athletic events. What have you seen come from that? And what can you share about athletics, intramurals most currently? Gen. Bauernfeind It's one of our three mission sets: athletics. And it's not just for our IC athletes. I jokingly tell some of the teammates to say, “Tell me about a cadets life.” It's like, well, they have three full time jobs, a military job, an academic job and an athletic job, and they really get a bachelor of science in time management. And that's as we go forward. But I've asked the athletic department, you know, during COVID, our intramural program atrophied, and now we have to see, how can we really enhance our intramurals as it goes forward. But I'm especially also proud of our intercollegiate athletes, 30 intercollegiate programs. When we talk about the blood, sweat, tears, the hard work that our IC athletes representing 25% of the Cadet Wing — they are really jumping in hard. And my expectations as the superintendent is all 30 of those programs earn home field advantage. And so we've recently published an operation order to the team as we look into the fall sports. And the basic synthesis of it is, protect this house. We will come strong to all home events, and we're working through that aspect. And so as a whole, not only will we figure out how to be strong at all of our home events, whether it be, you know, this fall with women's soccer, men's soccer, cross country, water polo, volleyball and, importantly, football. And proud to report here at our AOG that the entire Cadet Wing will be marching onto the football field and protecting this house and our amazing stadium at home games. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, sir, thank you for that. That's fantastic. Sir, you know, you can't come out of this Air Force Academy, this 18,000 acres of amazing Academy, without seeing some of the changes, whether it's facilities or capabilities. You know, of course, there are two questions we hear often about the chapel in the box. When will the chapel be done? And then also, you know, what about the visitor center? When can we actually get into it? Gen. Bauernfeind No, those are two great questions, Naviere. First of all, I think that the box has become so routine there that we received a formal request from cadet. So how can we have a — no kidding — drive in movie theater screen? And the request came in at $300,000 so we thought the prudent action was, let's get the chapel done so we can take the box down instead of putting up a new theater. But right now, for our chapel, again, it is an amazing piece of architecture, and to maintain the historical relevance and the hard work that went behind it, it's going to take time. Right now, we're on schedule for 2028 and we are focused on making sure all the involved teams take every single day out and we can find out as soon as possible when we have any sort of deviation, so we can swarm it. And so as such, we hold monthly meetings with IMSC — the Installation Management Sustainment Command — Air Force Civil Engineering Command, the Corps of Engineers, to go through all of our military construction projects so that if something comes up, we are aware of it within days of the issue, and we swarm it together instead of letting issues boil for a long period of time. And so excited to get the chapel back open as such a spiritual icon of the United States Air Force Academy. And spirituality is so important to the holistic leader's readiness— not just physical, mental, social, family, but also spiritual. And I think it will be important for that development. And then to the visitor center. We're on track to open up in May of '26 before the graduation, and excited to finally open that visitor center and share with a much wider audience what all of our alumni and we know of the amazing story behind the Air Force Academy, all the amazing exemplars who have come from our Academy. And I will share with you, I'm excited to get a whole ton of young Americans inside the visitor center so they can start getting excited about being part of the Class of 2032, 2038 and beyond. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, sir. Well, they say things are worth the wait, good things are worth the wait, and I think the interactive displays that are gonna come with this are really gonna help people understand truly what our cadets go through. Gen. Bauernfeind Absolutely. And thank you again to the AOG and Foundation. As money got tight, the Foundation came forward and we now have that beautiful glider, you know, in position that shows what all of our cadets are working through. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, sir. Well, our sole existence is to support the Academy, serve our grads and prserve the heritage. Well, sir, I'm cognizant of your time. We're so grateful you're here today. Mind if I ask you one final question? Gen. Bauernfeind Please do. Naviere Walkewicz What's on your mind that you want to leave with our graduates to be thinking about when you think about our Academy and your vision and mission. What can you leave us with? Gen. Bauernfeind I just want to thank the Long Blue Line. We are 55,000-plus strong. There have been so many of our alumni, every single one of us that have gone through this journey. And we're proud of this institution. And I just say, continue to support this amazing institution. Spread the good word of what our Air Force Academy is, because we want amazing young women, amazing young men that are in your communities, in your churches, at your work centers, to say, “Hey, have you heard about the Air Force Academy? That's the place for you, because our nation deserves the best.” And just a final thanks to the alumni, and as a superintendent, I'm proud to be in this position with my amazing teammates. And any alumni that wants to ask me, “What's the rest of the story?” I am always available. Please hit me up in the hallways, on the Terrazzo, on the field, and I look forward to your conversations. Naviere Walkewicz This has been a special edition of the Air Force Gradcast. On behalf of the Long Blue Line Podcast Network and the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation, thank you for joining us. It's been a privilege to hear directly from Lt. Gen. Bauernfeind and to share updates and perspectives relevant to graduates across our Academy community. Thank you for your continued connection, commitment and support of our United States Air Force Academy. I'm Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. Until next time. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
Lt. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers '11 joins us from orbit! SUMMARY From cadet to astronaut, she shares how the U.S. Air Force Academy prepared her for life aboard the International Space Station, the lessons space learned in the space program about leadership and how viewing Earth from 250 miles up re-shapes one's call to serve. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK COL. AYERS' TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS - Seeing Earth from space changes your perspective on leadership. - The fragility of Earth inspires a desire to protect it. - A lifelong dream of becoming an astronaut requires hard work and dedication. - Teamwork at the Air Force Academy prepared me for life in space. - Daily routines on the ISS are structured and focused on science and maintenance. - Astronauts are normal humans, not just heroes in space. - Quick thinking and calm leadership are crucial during space missions. - Community support is vital for success in unconventional paths. - Inspiring the next generation is a key part of my mission. - Curiosity and exploration should be fostered in young people. CHAPTERS 00:00 Journey to the Stars: Becoming an Astronaut 03:32 Life Aboard the ISS: Daily Routines and Responsibilities 07:23 Lessons in Leadership: Quick Thinking in Space 10:54 Observations from Above: Humanity and Resilience 12:10 Inspiring the Next Generation: A Sense of Purpose 13:17 The Long Blue Line: Community and Support ABOUT NICHOLE BIO U.S. Air Force Lt. Col. Nichole Ayers is a trailblazing pilot, leader, and astronaut whose journey began at the United States Air Force Academy, where she graduated in 2011 with a degree in mathematics. An accomplished F-22 Raptor pilot, Ayers is one of the few women ever to fly the world's most advanced stealth fighter—and she's one of even fewer to command them in formation for combat training missions. Col. Ayers earned her wings through years of training and operational excellence, logging over 200 flight hours in combat and playing a critical role in advancing tactical aviation. Her exceptional performance led to her selection in 2021 by NASA as a member of Astronaut Group 23, an elite class of 10 chosen from among 12,000 applicants. As a NASA astronaut candidate, Col. Ayers completed intensive training at Johnson Space Center, which included spacewalk preparation, robotics, survival training, systems operations, and Russian language. Now qualified for spaceflight, she stands on the threshold of a new chapter that led her to the International Space Station. Throughout her career, Col. Ayers has exemplified the Academy's core values of Integrity First, Service Before Self, and Excellence in All We Do. Her journey from cadet to combat aviator to astronaut is a testament to resilience, determination, and a passion for pushing boundaries. LEARN MORE ABOUT NICHOLE NASA Astronaut Nichole Ayers ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Guest, Lt. Col. Nichole "Vapor" Ayers '11 | Host, Lt. Col. (ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 NASA 00:00 Station, this is Houston. Are you ready for the event? Lt. Col. Nichole Ayers 00:05 Houston, Station, I'm ready for the event. NASA Air Force Academy, this is Mission Control, Houston. Please call Station for a voice check. Naviere Walkewicz 00:13 Station, this is Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz. How do you hear me? Lt. Col. Nichole Ayers 00:17 Hi, ma'am. I've got you loud and clear. Welcome to the International Space Station. Naviere Walkewicz 00:20 Welcome to a special presentation of the US, Air Force Academy, Association and Foundation's, Long Blue Line Podcast Network. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. I was honored recently to speak with a true pioneer, United States Air Force Academy graduate, accomplished fighter pilot, 2022 Young Alumni Excellence Award recipient and now NASA astronaut, Lieutenant Colonel Nicole “Vapor” Ayers, Class of 2011, Vapor joined us from the International Space Station orbiting about 250 miles above Earth. Her journey from Cadet to astronaut embodies the pursuit of excellence and the spirit of exploration that distinguishes the Long Blue Line. For this conversation Vapor and I explored what it means to be a human in the vastness of space, how one's perspective shifts when Earth shows up as a distant blue marble, and what her journey can tell us about courage, connection and the Future. Lieutenant Colonel Ayers, this is such an honor. So excited. Seeing Earth from space forever changes your perspective. How was the experience for you? And how has it changed the way you view your role as a leader? Lt. Col. Nichole Ayers 01:32 Yeah, you know, I think for everybody, the experience is slightly different. For me, seeing the earth from the Dragon window for the first time was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen. And then seeing the Earth every day from the cupola and then the lab window that we have here, you know, you don't see country or state lines on the Earth, right? There's not like each state has a different solid color, right? There's just geography and just terrain. And so you get to learn the world all over again in terms of colors and textures and geography and water. You know, there's so much water on this earth, and it's hard to put it into perspective until you're actually looking at the Earth, and it's, it's something that has really hit me, because the Earth is so fragile. You know, we see these beautiful auroras, we see thunderstorms, we see different natural disasters, and it's really kind of made me want to take better care of this earth. And you know, when I get home, I want to just do things a little bit better and just take that extra step, to take my make my part in taking good care of this earth. Naviere Walkewicz 02:38 That makes amazing sense. And, you know, I think it takes us to kind of your path to becoming an astronaut. Can you walk us through what that was like? Lt. Col. Nichole Ayers 02:47 Yeah, sure. So, you know, I was, I've been saying that I wanted to be an astronaut since I was little kid. And, you know, I always had an affinity for space and for the sky. And growing up in the Shuttle era, you know, as soon as I learned that you could fly the shuttle be the pilot. I was like, “Ooh, that's what I want to do.” And so, the very serious little Nichole set my goals really high and started working towards that path. And, you know, grew up right there in Colorado Springs, watched the Air Force Academy graduation, you know, and the Thunderbirds fly over every year. And it just kind of seemed like a natural path for me to go to the Air Force Academy, become a pilot and try to pursue the astronaut dream from the pilot's perspective. So you know, I worked really hard, set my goals really high, and never got bumped off that path and was able to apply and actually get selected. And now here I am talking to you from the International Space Station. Naviere Walkewicz 03:36 And it's pretty incredible being able to see you weightless there, and you're here in its full glory. It's pretty amazing. Can you, talk about your time at the Air Force Academy? Specifically, what foundational experiences would you say have really kind of played a part with your life in space right now? Lt. Col. Nichole Ayers 03:54 Yeah you know, I think the Air Force Academy, for me, the biggest part was just being on teams. You know, I played volleyball there. And, you know, I would say every Squadron is its own little team. And you know, as a four degree, you're there with all of your classmates, and you're going through training sessions together. And so being on these teams in different environments, and some austere environments and high pressure situations, and learning how to take care of other people in those moments, I think, has been huge in my path to getting here. You know, those, all those words speak truth here on the International Space Station, you know, we're in an austere environment. Sometimes we're under pressure situations, and it's just a few of us up here working together with the ground to make this International Space Station stay in orbit, to execute all of the science and the maintenance and keep it running and continue to learn everything we possibly can, both about space and about Earth in order to inform how we do life on Earth and how we get to the moon and Mars. Naviere Walkewicz 04:47 Thank you. So maybe, can you share with us what your daily routine aboard the ISS is like... Lt. Col. Nichole Ayers 04:53 Yeah, you know, it's not unlike yours. Potentially. You know, our schedule is pretty set to the ground team figures out about, you know, what science and what maintenance needs to be done, and who's going to go do it. We are scheduled from about 7:30 in the morning to 7:30 in the evening, and we get, you know, two to two and a half hours of exercise time so that we can maintain our bone and muscle and cardiovascular health up here. And then when we're not working out, we're, like, I said, executing science. You know, I'm surrounded just here in this module, every single rack has some sort of payload or science experiment going on, so we just kind of follow the schedule. We work with the ground team to figure out where the things are that we need, and the procedures and all of that. But it's not unlike life on Earth... Naviere Walkewicz 05:37 Maybe a little bit different. What's the biggest misconception people have about life on the ISS, you think? And what's something that surprised you while you're being there? Lt. Col. Nichole Ayers 05:48 Man, you know, I've been asked this question before. I'm not sure if I know the biggest misconception. You know, I think that often people kind of put astronauts up on a pedestal, but, you know, we're just humans who like to do, like the work that we do. We're really passionate about what we do. We're good teammates. So we're just normal humans, and it's not the most glamorous job, you know, we do, you know, often wear diapers, or we're working really hard, or things like that. So, you know, just normal humans up here. I think one of the things that surprised me the most, I'll see if I can do this without bumping the Astrobee off the wall here. But for me, it took my brain a while to, you know, get used to seeing people on the wall, or, you know, our treadmills on the wall, or seeing people upside down, and there's no up and down in space. And so it took a while for me to get used to that, and for my brain to kind of remap what I consider up, down, left and right in space. And you know that people are just floating, and we get a float every day, I can let go the mic and talk to you. Naviere Walkewicz 06:46 So we have a lot of cadets and young officers that listen to us. What advice would you give them in the dream of following in your footsteps? Lt. Col. Nichole Ayers 06:56 Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I love to preach hard work and teamwork. You know, find something that you really enjoy doing. You know, NASA needs, I studied math, right? I'm a pilot, but we need doctors. We need scientists, we need engineers. So figure out what you really enjoy doing, work really hard at that thing, and then go find a team you can be on, and figure out how to take care of other people, and figure out how, how you mesh in this world, and how you can and thrive in these small environments or austere environments with other people. So I love to just say, you know, work hard, be a good teammate, and everything will work out in your favor. I think. Naviere Walkewicz 07:30 Can you share if you've received any valuable insights or advice from other Air Force Academy grads who were astronauts? Lt. Col. Nichole Ayers 07:37 Oh, yeah, I think tons, is what I would say, you know, Eric Kjell, and specifically Nick and Roger, who just recently flew and came back, you know, I think that there's been a ton of advice just in terms of of how we do life here on the International Space Station and how, you know, we're going to continue to explore on the Moon and Mars, and how we can share our story, and how we can share all of the science that we're doing. But I think one of the most practical things that I got was from Nick during the handover, when we, we had a couple days up here together, and he said, “Don't forget, you're still squishy.” You know, we're surrounded by a bunch of metal up here. Nothing is very soft. And so if you, if you get moving too quick, or you get too confident, it's very easy to stub a toe or hit something. And so we're still just squishy humans. And you know, if you take that one step further metaphorically, I think, you know, we're still just humans, and we make mistakes, and that's okay, as long as you can bounce back, and as long as you're not going too fast when you hit a handrail too hard. Naviere Walkewicz 08:31 Absolutely. Well, you talked a little bit about the austere environment. What do you hope your mission and your story inspiring the next generation of Academy grads, especially those who feel called to serve in bold and unconventional ways. Lt. Col. Nichole Ayers 08:46 Yeah, you know, I think the bold and unconventional part really hits me, because, you know, growing up during the shuttle era, and then I was at the Air Force Academy when the last shuttle flight flew. And you know, as you grow up, you say you want to be an astronaut, people often say like, Wow, that's awesome. And then when you become an adult, sometimes you don't quite get the same response, you know, sometimes you get a laugh. And so, you know, I would say that even if people don't believe you, or they don't necessarily support what you want to do, if you've got a goal or a dream, just continue to, like I said, work hard at it, you know, put your nose to the grinder. Get really good at whatever it is that you want to go do, and don't let the naysayers get you. You know, there will always be someone there who thinks it's silly, but you will always find someone who supports you. My old commander, Robin, again, he was the one who supported me and got me here, and he said, “Are you silly?” Like, why would you ever think that's silly, or hesitate to tell me what you want to do? So, keep talking about your goals, keep working towards it. And yeah, like I said, maybe someday you could be up here with us. Naviere Walkewicz 09:44 Absolutely bold and unconventional, for sure. And speaking of such space missions demand precision under pressure. Can you share a moment, whether in training or on the ISS where quick thinking and calm leadership made a difference for you? Lt. Col. Nichole Ayers 09:57 Yeah, definitely. I think that I.... Actually, a great example is our space walk that Anne McClain and I did about a month and a half ago. You know, right in the middle of the space walk, the priorities changed and the game plan changed. And if you were just an onlooker watching, sitting at home watching, you may not have even noticed that. And I think that's a huge testament to our ground team and our flight director, Deanna Trujillo, for the day, you know, her ability to lead that ground team and change the game plan on the fly, and then get those words up to us through some calm loss and some other hardships that we were working through, and then for us, for Anna and I, to work together, both just the two of us out outside the space station and the vacuum of space, but also us with the ground to make that all look very seamless. We're very proud of how that space walk went, and our ability to kind of change the plan on the fly, execute, come up with new ways of doing things, and figuring out how we're going to leave the station in a good state, and also achieve all those objectives. So think that was we're actually really proud of the way that we, you know, manage all of those changes, and hopefully to the onlooker like yourself. It looks seamless. Naviere Walkewicz 11:04 Absolutely and it kind of talks a little bit to what you said earlier about, you know, seeing Earth from a different vantage point and wanting to protect it. I'd like to actually ask you more about that. So can you share, from your vantage point what you've observed about humanity and the resilience as you, as you look on it, from us, from our perspective here on Earth, and you being up there, Lt. Col. Nichole Ayers 11:24 Yeah, you know, I think that one of the biggest things that, you know, I mentioned the natural disasters that we see and, you know, and I feel a sense of duty to photograph and to try to document the things that just humans endure on a daily basis. You know, I talked about thunderstorms or landslides, forest fires, all sorts of things. You know, we see it from such a different vantage point up here. And, you know, knowing that there are people down there who are trying to survive, and knowing that those people will survive, and that we have an entire community that's going to rally around those people in those instances. And you know, just trying to do our part from up here and give, you know, that unique vantage point and give as much data and as much help as we possibly can. I think that's one of the biggest things that our world does well, is, you know, helping each other when we're in need. Naviere Walkewicz 12:09 And Lieutenant Colonel Ayres, maybe you can share what's been the impact of this mission on your sense of purpose, and how do you think it will shape your next chapter when you come back on Earth? Lt. Col. Nichole Ayers 12:22 This is a great question. I've done a lot of thinking about this, you know, you know, finally achieving your childhood dream. What's next? You know, what do you do next? And I think for me, the biggest thing that I want to continue to do is just inspire the next generation. You know, all those little kids who say they want to be astronauts, and then they get laughed at as adults. You know, I think that's it's so important to just foster that curiosity and foster that sense of exploration. And really, you know, encourage the next generation to go do what they're passionate about, because we will always need someone in that niche thing that you're passionate about. And so helping people get there is, is really what I want to do next. And, you know, helping the next youth get to their dreams and their goals and continue to just build this society that continues to explore and as you know, especially as we go to the moon and onto Mars and we commercialize low earth orbit, I think there's so much that we can do. And it's I feel, again, a sense of duty to help the next generation do that? Naviere Walkewicz 13:21 Well, we talk about the next generation and the long blue line being enduring. Is there anything else you'd want to share with Air Force Academy grads in general? Lt. Col. Nichole Ayers 13:30 Yeah, you know, I think it might be a dead horse that I'm beating at this point, but the teamwork is so important. You know, just, just take care of the people around you. Make sure that you're always looking out for each other. You know, the long blue line is a very special thing to be a part of. And, you know, like yourself, you know, I met you a couple years ago, and it feels like I could just go, you know, hang out with you, have dinner, and we could pick up like old friends. And that's what the long blue line is all about. You know, having friends all over the world who can help you. You know, I got to hang out with Nick Hague in space, another member of the long blue line who told me I was going to be squishy. You know, things like that are just the unique moments that we have as Academy grads. You know, there's always going to be someone there who supports you and who loves you and who wants to see you be successful, Naviere Walkewicz 14:15 Wonderful. Thank you so much for this time. There's probably so many more questions we could ask you, but I think the biggest one is just, you know, we would leave you with it's such an honor and a privilege to see you out there. We're proud of everything that you're doing, and we can't wait to see more of what you're able to accomplish while you're in space and when you come back. Lt. Col. Nichole Ayers 14:34 Thank you so much. Like I said, so excited to talk to you today and to just share the experience and also, you know, have a have an influence on the AOG. I'm excited that the AOG is interested in space and interested in all of us who are out here. You know, again, the Long Blue Line is a really cherished and unique group to be a part of. So honored and proud to be a part of that group, and excited that I got to share a little bit of what we do up here with you guys today. Naviere Walkewicz 15:02 Thank you so much for the time. Naviere Walkewicz Well, before I close, I'd like to share what happened after the podcast. My cell phone rang, and I had a call from government, and I said, “Who could be calling me?” Well, I answered, and wouldn't you know 250 miles above the Earth, Vapor Ayers was calling me on my cell phone just to say what an amazing conversation we had. What technology we have, that she sounded like she was next door. It was an incredible opportunity for us to talk a little bit more about the podcast and highlight what you might hear in an upcoming Checkpoints article. So for now, I'll sign off. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. Thank you for listening. This has been a special presentation of the US, Air Force Academy, Association and Foundation's Long Blue Line Podcast Network. You can listen to this and all our podcast network programming at LongBlueLinePodcast.org once more, that's LongBlueLinePodcast.org NASA 16:03 Station, this is Houston. ACR, thank you. That concludes our event. KEYWORDS NASA, astronaut, International Space Station, Air Force Academy, leadership, resilience, teamwork, space exploration, inspiration, Earth The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
Season 3 of the Long Blue Leadership podcast is a wrap! From established national leaders to rising stars, this season features inspiring stories from U.S. Air Force Academy graduates. SUMMARY This season's guests included Dr. Heather Wilson '82, former Secretary of the Air Force; Dr. John Torres '82, NBC News Senior Medical Correspondent; Maj. Gen. Thomas Sherman '95, Vice Superintendent of the U.S. Air Force Academy, and 2nd Lt. Wyatt Hendrickson '24, NCAA wrestling champion. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK TAKEAWAYS Leadership is about collecting tools over time. Your identity is not defined by your profession. Intentionality in actions leads to personal growth. Leadership can be practiced at any level. Admitting mistakes quickly is crucial for growth. Respect and loyalty are earned through care. Every moment is an opportunity to make an impact. Legacy is built in real-time interactions. Conversations can unlock deeper insights about leadership. Sharing stories fosters connection and learning. CHAPTERS 00:00 Celebrating leadership lessons from Season 3 03:07 Insights from Dr. Heather Wilson '82 05:47 Chad Hennings '88 on identity and leadership 08:55 Young leader Wyatt Hendrickson's '24 journey 11:51 Jemal Singleton '99, leading where you are 14:53 Emma Przybyslawski '10 on leadership beyond the uniform 17:49 Dr. John Torres '82, earning respect and loyalty 20:37 Maj. Gen. Thomas P. Sherman '95 on trust, courage, and legacy 23:47 Looking ahead to Season 4 ABOUT OUR HOSTS BIO's LT. COL. (RET.) NAVIERE WALKEWICZ '99 Senior Vice President, Engagement With over two decades in leadership roles, my current focus at the Association of Graduates - U.S. Air Force Academy is fostering a robust network of 50,000+ alumni. This commitment involves igniting a culture of engagement and inclusivity, underpinned by a strong foundation in support of our Air Force Academy. - BIO COPY CREDIT: LINKEDIN.COM MR. WYATT HORNSBY Senior Vice President, Marketing & Communications | Executive Producer Wyatt Hornsby is passionate about developing marketing and communications talent and cohesive, high-performance teams. He is senior vice president of marketing and communications at the Air Force Academy Foundation and the Association of Graduates. He leads the work of the foundation and alumni association marketing and communications division, while also coordinating with various Air Force Academy offices, including Public Affairs and Strategic Communications. - BIO COPY CREDIT: LINKEDIN.COM CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Ryan Hall | Director: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Co-Hosts: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 | Mr. Wyatt Hornsby Naviere Walkewicz 00:26 Welcome to our retrospective for Season 3. We're celebrating the first three seasons of the Association & Foundation's premier podcast and the countless leadership lessons shared by some of the most accomplished Air Force Academy grads. Wyatt Hornsby 00:41 Naviere, in Season 3, we've showcased some amazing stories and takeaways that apply to life, both in and out of the military. From the start, Long Blue Leadership has given listeners an inside look at real experiences, insights and advice from seasoned leaders as well as those just beginning their journeys. These deep dives explore how leaders not only face challenges head on, but also find ways to inspire and empower those around them. Naviere Walkewicz 01:06 These conversations are amazing. What really sets this podcast apart are how these leadership discussions consistently touch on teamwork, perseverance, humility, excellence and service before self. Wyatt Hornsby 01:17 Well said, Naviere. And in this edition of Long Blue Leadership, we're gonna respond to a few clips and share our own perspectives related to some of our favorite moments, and we'll also preview what's coming up in Season 4. Naviere Walkewicz 01:30 Now Wyatt and I would be remiss if we didn't share — listen, we could go on about every guest that's on this podcast, because everyone is remarkable, but we're just going to focus on a few of them. So let's jump right into some of our favorite moments from Season 3. Wyatt Hornsby Let's do it. Naviere Walkewicz All right. Well, this first clip is someone that you're going to recognize: Dr. Heather Wilson, Class of '82. What an amazing graduate. And you know, when we think about what she's accomplished — she's a Distinguished Graduate, secretary of the Air Force, I mean, going on into Congress — she is a mentor for many. And this particular clip, she actually is referring to someone who's been a mentor for her and being able to make an impact in his life. So let's take a listen. Dr. Heather Wilson 02:12 My grandfather was an aviator. He was also a mechanic. He could use any tool. I mean, he was just amazing with his hands. And I had learned a new tool in school, and I took out a piece of graph paper, and I drew a curve, and I said, “Grandpa, do you think you could find the area under this curve?” And he said, “Well, I'd probably count up the squares and estimate from there on the graph paper.” And I then I showed him something new, and it was called calculus, and it was the first time in my life that I realized I had a tool that my grandfather didn't have. He had a high school education and had gone into the RAF during the First World War, and he was a great mechanic and a really good man, but I realized that there were opportunities for me that maybe my grandfather never had. Naviere Walkewicz 03:14 What an amazing conversation with her. What did you think about that comment about the tool? Wyatt Hornsby 03:19 That's very, very moving. You can see just what her grandfather, what he meant to her, and just to think about those experiences and how they informed and influenced how Dr. Wilson has been a leader to so many in Congress, as secretary of the Air Force and now as president of the University of Texas, El Paso. Naviere Walkewicz 03:38 Yes. And when you go back to that conversation, I think she talks about tools in a toolbox, and she relates it to her grandfather and her dad, I think, as well. But she talks about the toolbox almost serving as — you never know when you're going to need a tool. So as long as you collect tools over time, they can make a difference. And so she likens them to the people in your life and the people who serve with you and under you and above you. But if you start to recognize the tools that they have, you never know when they're going to make a difference. And in her case, she was actually able to provide a tool like calculus for her grandfather. Wyatt Hornsby A great lesson. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, yes. So make sure you take a listen on that one. Wyatt Hornsby 04:15 Well, Naviere, this next conversation I absolutely love — Chad Hennings, Class of 1988, who went on, I believe, to serve in the Gulf War, flew the A-10 before joining the Super Bowl-winning Dallas Cowboys. And I love this conversation. Chad talks in this conversation about who you are isn't necessarily what you do. It comes from who you are from within. I just love this clip. Let's listen to it. Chad Hennings 04:41 One of the questions that I ask someone who is changing and transitioning in their careers, whether that be from professional athletics or from the military, I ask them, “Who are you?” You know, a lot of times they'll say, “I'm well, I'm Captain so-and-so,” or, “I'm a former F-16 fighter pilot,” or, “I'm a former running back.” I go, “That's what you do. Who are you? What you do does not define who you are.” I mean, that's the thing that I think so many people need to grasp, is that their identity is not based on what they do. It's more of an inner pursuit. Naviere Walkewicz 05:14 Well, I won't put you on the spotlight and ask you who you are, but I remember that conversation, and it was really quite a reflective one for me, because I remember, as he was sharing those things, I started thinking, “Well, who am I, you know, as a leader, etc.” So that was really meaningful. Wyatt Hornsby 05:30 Indeed. I mean, all across our lives and careers, we do a lot of different things. We wear a lot of different hats at various points, and I think it's hard, but I think it's so meaningful to really reflect on your own personal values in determining really who you are from within. I just loved how Chad talked about that. Naviere Walkewicz 05:50 Yes, that was just one of the lessons that he shared. And I think it really kind of goes back to understanding yourself and growing as a leader. So it's certainly a wonderful conversation for those interested. Well, let's take a visit to one of our younger graduates. Most recently, 2024 class, and his name is Wyatt Hendrickson, so another Wyatt here. Some might remember him as Captain America. I think he's been called that lately, in the news, but known for just his accomplishments in the world of wrestling and what he's continuing to go on, hopefully here in the Olympics. But this conversation really is about some real insightful moments that I think he's had as a young leader, that he recognizes the importance of doing things for yourself. And some might first think, “Well, that sounds kind of selfish, right? You know, we're taught to be team members and team players and do things together.” But when we, when we listen to this clip, I think we understand why he talks about doing things for yourself. Let's take a listen. Wyatt Hendrickson 06:49 As a leader in at the Air Force Academy, I started going to these briefs, and I'm like, “You know, I'm not going to try to have the a bad mindset. I'm not going to show up here, just check a box. I'm going to show up here and try to take something from it.” So what I did, I bring like a notebook or a small little pamphlet, just to write notes. And everything you do, do it with intent. Don't do it because you're afraid of a bad result — you're afraid of something here, there. Do it because you want to do it, and you have to decide you're doing it for yourself. Naviere Walkewicz 07:18 You know, what I really like about that clip is understanding that you have to do things for yourself and not others. And so I liken it — you know, we are parents, and at one time we are children. And so we probably did things. We do things as parents for your children. When you're a child, you do things because you don't want to make your parents unhappy, or you want to make your teacher proud or your coach proud. And I think he learned early as a leader that if you're going to do something with intent, to do it for yourself. What do you think? Wyatt Hornsby 07:44 That's right. Being able to invest in yourself so that you can show up for others as well. And so I think when you really consider that, he's really talking about a little bit of service before self within that as well. And I think it's working out well for him. You know, he just pulled off, some say, the biggest upset in NCAA wrestling history. And I agree, we'll hope that he gets to the Olympics. Just what a remarkable young leader and athlete. Naviere Walkewicz 08:11 Yes, and what an exciting and engaging conversation that I hope you'll take a listen to as well. There were some exciting moments in there that he experienced, I think. You know, with the president and, you know, just kind of reflective moments with his coach, but certainly a conversation that many will be engaged by. Wyatt Hornsby 08:28 And when we talked to him, his life was very busy, and we just so appreciate him taking time to talk with you, Naviere. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, absolutely. Wyatt Hornsby All right. Naviere, this next guest I absolutely love — Jemal Singleton, Class of 1999. Naviere Walkewicz Gold will shine. Wyatt Hornsby That's right, assistant head coach for the Philadelphia Eagles, also coach for running backs for the Eagles. And this was such a great conversation. We were you were able to go to Philadelphia and sit down with Jemal and really hear his story and something — I mean, the conversation was just full of great insights. But one thing that Jemal said that I absolutely loved was, no matter where you are in your life and career, lead where you are. You don't have to have a big team or direct reports, just lead where you are. So let's listen to that clip. Jemal Singleton 09:17 I think the biggest thing that you can do is lead where you're at, and it doesn't matter where you're at. “Oh, well, I'm not the CEO,” or, “Oh, I'm not the head coach,” or, “Oh, I'm not the commander.” So? Leadership comes in a million different ways. And I truly believe that you know kind of what you do with the little things, is how you do everything. And if, in your position, whatever it may be — maybe nobody even works for you — you can still lead from that position. You can lead from that spot. And I think that's it. Don't be afraid to step out. Don't be afraid to be a leader in your own mind. It's got to start there. At some point, you keep honing those skills and then maybe you are going to grow. And then, hey, you have three people working for you, but you then be a leader at that point. And it's kind of like what I mentioned earlier, about be where your feet are; lead where your feet are at. Wyatt Hornsby 10:09 What a great insight. And I think that is just so helpful for not only people who are earlier in their career, and maybe they want to be able to grow as a leader. But also for leaders as well, in terms of how they instill in the people who they're privileged to lead, how they can continue to grow and advance. Naviere Walkewicz 10:30 Yes, what a great life lesson in general. I think sometimes we are so eyes forward on the next thing, that we forget to be our best at the present and the moment. And that was a really, I think, a key message that I took from that was, you know, when he says, lead where you are, you know, be fully present where you are, just like we are right now, reliving, kind of that moment with him. And so what an engaging and amazing conversation with Coach Jemal Singleton. Of course, being a '99 grad, you'd expect that, but, you know? Wyatt Hornsby 10:58 We wish him. We wish him all the best. What a run he's on right now. Congrats to the Eagles. Naviere Walkewicz 11:03 Yes. And if I may just offer this: I did want to extend to the team with the Eagles — I mean, what a world class operation out there, to be able to invite us in and put us in their amazing studio to help us share the story that really goes beyond the football, right? It goes beyond the field and how they're doing things as leaders out there. So thank you so much for that amazing support. We really appreciate it. All right. This next clip, Wyatt, is someone that we know well. She is one of our past AOG board directors, Class of 2010, Emma Przybyslawski, also a Young Alumni Excellence Award winner for us, what a remarkable leader. You know, she served in the Air Force, in the special operations community, but also went on after the uniform to really kind of lead her team and her business. In this particular clip, she's talking about leadership outside of uniform. And I think it's important for our listeners to know that leadership comes in and outside of uniform, and so we want to make sure we highlight that. But this particular clip, she talks about getting to “no” as fast as you can — and that's an odd statement to hear, but I think it's really impactful. Emma Przybyslawski 12:14 One of my key tenets is having the stomach to say, like, “Oof, this didn't work out the way that I wanted it to,” or, “Maybe we were wrong about that.” Step 1, right? Admitting the problem. Step 2 is then pivot, move on, let it go. Just let it go, and either take some great lessons learned from it — hopefully you do — or just bail on it and like, go on to something different. Get to no as fast as you can. Like, no is an OK answer, but man, let's get there as fast as we can. Because the more time you iterate and waste on bad ideas that you don't know if they're bad yet, that they're going to be, the sooner you can get to no, the better off you are. Naviere Walkewicz 12:59 I really like that, just because it's so different. I mean, it's a different perspective on being thoughtful. on resources and time and how you actually utilize all that as a leader and when you're making decisions that impact others. I just thought that was really insightful. What'd you get from it? Wyatt Hornsby 13:16 I agree, and what I hear from that is integrity and discipline. No one likes to admit that they're wrong. It's not the most fun thing in the world, but what I heard Emma say was, “If we got something wrong, just admit it. Get there as quickly as possible, learn and move on.” So I love that leadership insight. Naviere Walkewicz 13:33 Yes, and when you look through history and you think about, those greats, those innovators — but you know, over time, they failed because they failed to actually move forward or stop something that was no longer working. They just held on so tight. I think as a leader, it's important to recognize that. And her, as you know, such, I think, a young and enthusiastic and, you know, impactful leader realizing that it's an important lesson I think we can all take. Wyatt Hornsby 13:56 It's easy to see, you know, when we hear Emma talk about leadership, it's easy to see how far she's come in life, and, you know, what she's been able to do. Naviere Walkewicz 14:05 Yes, so make sure you listen to that. While she does talk about that outside of uniform, she does share some incredible stories while she was in the special operations community. I think our listeners will really enjoy learning some of that too. Wyatt Hornsby 14:16 All right, Naviere, our next guest, Dr. John Torres, Class of 1982 — and that's a name that many of our listeners and viewers may be familiar with. Chief medical correspondent for NBC News. And I love this conversation. Dr. Torres was able to take time from his schedule and visit with us here in Wecker Hall. And really what he talked about, what I took away from this was that leaders earn respect and loyalty. They take care of their people, and they put their people really before themselves. So let's listen to this clip. Dr. John Torres 14:47 Watching leaders and how they did things, both when I was here at the Academy and when I was in the Air Force and even through medical school, the doctors that were good and talked to people appropriately. The leaders that were good and they had the men and women following them because they wanted to follow them, versus following them because they had to follow them. And as you know, there's a huge difference there. And I tried to model myself after the ones who had people who followed them because they wanted to follow — they respected them. They earned that respect. They earned that loyalty. And to me, that was always an important thing. And so when I transitioned over to medicine, especially being a flight doc, I wanted them to do the things that medically were important for them because they wanted to, because they trusted me, and they understood that I was looking out for them and not just their career or not just their flying, but looking out for them and their families. Naviere Walkewicz 15:32 I remember that conversation. Wyatt Hornsby 15:35 Caring deeply about the person, and not necessarily what they — putting that before what they do. Naviere Walkewicz 15:41 Exactly. That conversation went on because it was referencing the fact that, as a medical doctor in the service, you know, you had those that really wanted to fly like that was their calling. And when they had a medical issue arise, you know, Dr. Torres, because he led in the way that he did. He created that relationship and that trust, to be able to say, “This is what we're up against,” and, you know, to be able to make a leadership and a professional recommendation, and then that, you know, “I care about you as a person, so I'm gonna ask you to consider this,” even if it might be the hard decision that they'd have to make. And I think that that goes a long way for leaders, because sometimes we have to give bad news to our people. Wyatt Hornsby 16:21 That's right, and really caring about those who were charged with leading and taking care of their best interests, sometimes having those tough conversations. But when we do that, when we authentically care about our people, they will respect us. They will trust and that's really what he was talking about. Powerful. Naviere Walkewicz 16:43 I think we could probably both think about examples of leaders in our lives that maybe we didn't get the best news, but we always knew they had our best interests, and we would walk through fire for them. Wyatt Hornsby That's right. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, what a great conversation with an amazing speaker. You'll have to take a listen to the entire conversation with Dr. Torres, because his was really incredible. And the fact that he actually almost left the Academy, but stayed because of survival training. So you make sure you listen to that. All right. Well, this last clip we're going to visit is, gosh, I still just got goose bumps thinking about the conversation with him. It's a recent conversation with Maj. Gen. Tom P. Sherman, Class of 1995, the current vice superintendent of the Air Force Academy. And I could go on and on about, you know, the way he inspires through his words, but this particular clip, Wyatt, was one where he talks about courage, right? And when he recognized a moment in time. This is from a conversation with his AOC, back when he was a cadet at the Air Force Academy, and he had a moment of clarity. Wyatt Hornsby 17:45 We've both had the opportunity to see Gen. Sherman speak, and just an incredible speaker and presenter — really gets to know his audience. So let's listen. Maj. Gen. Thomas P. Sherman 17:57 But I think really where the Foundation came in is where we started to talk about leadership. And you know, what I was asking him to do was to pull my rated recommendation form. So we had just submitted them, and I was asking him to pull my rated recommendation form. I didn't want to compete for it anymore. And so we started to talk about leadership. And he says, “You know, hey, Cadet Sherman, you need to understand that, you know, leadership in this Air Force is being the lead F-16 pilot on a bombing run. You know, putting iron on target.” And that's true. It's a very important part of leadership. It is a very important part of tactical operational leadership in this Air Force. So he's not wrong in that space, but I was looking at it from a different lens, and I was looking at it, I think, on a larger level. And what I don't think he realized is that 30 seconds before I walked into his office, he set me up for success. I just happened to be waiting outside the office, and all of a sudden I looked on his cork board, and somebody, and I don't know who it was, had pinned a note that was written to Airman Magazine by an airman first class. And this airman first class titled this, “I need a leader.” And this A1C felt so strongly about what they were feeling, and I have no idea who this person was, felt so strongly about it that they put pen to paper — and this would have been the fall of 1994 — and sent this into Airman Magazine, and it says, “I need a leader. Commissioning sources: Send us lieutenants that we can look up to that will hold us accountable when we do wrong, that will encourage us when we do well, that will be an example that we can look up to, that will care about us as human beings, because you are not sending them to us now. Air Force: I need a leader.” Like that 30 seconds just before I walked into his office, that changed my life. And it changed my life, because for me, at that moment, what I was getting ready to go ask my AOC to do what I was looking at inside myself like that became my charge. Wyatt Hornsby 19:57 Naviere, I mean, as a graduate, how does that land with you? Naviere Walkewicz 20:01 I have chill bumps right now, and it's not because it's cold in here, because it's not. I think you nailed it when you said he's someone who can really kind of inspire through his words. But you know, when I hear him say that, it makes me want to go back through the Academy all over again. I want to do it again to see if I can do it better. Because I want to be a leader for that airman and for anyone else that is serving alongside me, under me, etc. That's what I felt hearing that again. Wyatt Hornsby 20:33 Yeah, and just from the whole conversation, I mean, that's really, I think that's the essence of Gen. Sherman's career, in my eyes, is that he has done everything he can to deliver or to develop as a leader and to be able to bring out the best in everyone who he has had the opportunity to lead and work with. Naviere Walkewicz 20:51 One of my favorite moments in that conversation was about, you know, “What do you want your legacy to be?” You know, I think that was some kind of — that was maybe a way that I asked the question, and his answer was so unique, because he said, “You know, I don't really think about legacy, like, down the road.” He says — it's almost like he thinks about it in real time, and I'm paraphrasing, so you'll have to listen to the conversation. But he talked about, like, his legacy is when he makes an impact in every moment. So, like, this, you and I together, if I'm able to make an impact through our conversation, like, that's his legacy. And in off the screen, I didn't get to share this in our conversation, but my son, Arden, he's a cadet now, and when I told him I was going to be doing this podcast with Gen. Sherman, he had nothing but amazing — “Mom, I would walk through fire for him. He's so amazing. He's so inspiring.” And I shared that with Gen. Sherman, I said, “Well, you should know, sir, that you created a legacy with my son,” and it actually brought some emotion to him, and that that's who he is. I think that's who we want to be. Wyatt Hornsby 21:52 Absolutely a remarkable leader and just an amazing episode. And hope that you all take the time to listen to it. Naviere Walkewicz 22:00 Yes. So those were our highlights from Season 3. And like I said, we could go on about every one of our guests, because they're so impactful and amazing. And just — we take something from each of them. Wyatt Hornsby 22:12 We did Naviere, and I want to just take a moment too, just to thank you for doing such a great job in Season 3. And just not asking questions, but just having conversations. And it's just easy to see that this just is kind of like a conversation over coffee, where you're just talking about leadership and really getting a sense of what their journey has been, whether it's been the good or the not so good, but just really finding out who they are authentically. So thank you, Naviere, just for leading those conversations. Naviere Walkewicz 22:43 It's my great pleasure. I think some of the best work behind the scenes comes from this place of wanting to help share their story in a way that our listeners may not have ever heard before, and almost unlocking within them something that surprises themselves, about themselves, you know what I mean? Where they're actually like, “Wow, I'm sharing this,” and it's almost unlocking this new portal on leadership, on themselves. And so that's kind of how I always approach preparation for a conversation. And my goal is just to leave someone with something that really resonates with them. Wyatt Hornsby 23:18 Well done, Naviere. And while we're at it, we're going to put Ted, our producer, our amazing producer, on the spot here. Ted, congratulations again on a great Season 3. And what are you — just any reflections that you want to share? Ted Robertson 23:33 Loving watching Naviere grow and glow as a host — she's just my favorite person ever to work with, and thank all of you. This doesn't happen without a whole team committing time and resources and effort, eyes, ears, ideas. It doesn't happen without this group effort. It's a wonderful, wonderful place to be in. Speaking of places to be, you're going to talk about this a little later. Some listener feedback coming up next that Wyatt is going to tell you about. But we have the gift of a new studio that you're some of you are seeing for the first time inside of our new building that we can't wait for many of you to see. So thank you both for everything you do, your support, your encouragement and giving me this couple of minutes to share my thoughts with all of you. Naviere Walkewicz Thanks, Ted. Wyatt Hornsby 24:23 Yeah. Thank you, Ted, again, great work, and we're just we're very grateful for all the heart and soul you put into Long Blue Leadership. Naviere Walkewicz 24:31 Well, up next, Wyatt has some listener feedback to share with you, but before we do that, I'd like to take a moment and thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. This podcast publishes the first and third Tuesdays of the month in both audio and video, and is available on all your favorite podcast apps. Be sure to watch or listen to all episodes of Long Blue Leadership at longblueleadership.org. Once more, that's longblueleadership.org Wyatt Hornsby 24:58 And a note I saw from Allison D. in reference to Naviere's conversation, particularly with Emma Przybyslawski. And this highlights how hard Naviere has worked and how well she has done as host of Long Blue Leadership. And I'll start with Allison's note to Naviere, and then I'd like to add some thoughts of my own. From Allison: “Just wanted to do a quick shout out to let you know that I've been listening to your interview with Emma P. and I thought you did a phenomenal job. Emma's willingness to share her perspective in experiences in such an authentic way was a testament to her. But I also wanted you to know that while I was actively listening to her responses, I was also blown away by your ability to follow up with each response with an insightful and natural follow up question. My brain was still digesting her last response, and I don't know how you were able to digest and formulate such an interesting follow up question in such a short amount of time. Well done, Naviere.” Naviere Walkewicz 25:58 I remember that comment. What a special moment to get that from Allison. Thanks for sharing that, Wyatt. Wyatt Hornsby 26:05 Our pleasure, and thank you again, Naviere, for doing such a great job as our host. Naviere Walkewicz 26:10 Well, Wyatt, let's talk about Season 4. It's coming out. Yes, some new things. Do you want to talk about kind of where we're in right now? What to expect? Wyatt Hornsby 26:17 We're going to be having 13 episodes. Ten are going to be Long Blue Leadership, and then two are going to be really developmental focus, special presentations. Can't wait for that. And then, of course, we'll wrap up Season 4 with a retrospective, Naviere. Naviere Walkewicz 26:31 Oh gosh, it's going to be amazing. I think what we've learned from the past seasons are people really enjoy hearing the stories from graduates that they can connect with — some transformational moments in their lives. But really excited. We kicked it off here at the end of Season 3 will be coming from our new studio here in Wecker Hall, so they'll get to see the studio and really hear the stories from our graduates. Those are really influential and key leaders in their fields. Wyatt Hornsby 26:56 I can't wait. And some of our guests — they'll include academics, warfighters, general officers, business leaders, scholars, diplomats, entrepreneurs, policymakers and others. Naviere Walkewicz 27:08 Yes, and you mentioned it, that kind of leadership. Those two special episodes on leadership, this focus on leadership, we're actually going to go to experts in a field. Maybe they're published authors, but they are going to be some real experts that help our graduates and our listeners hone in on their leadership development. So it's really going to give them some tactical and tangible things that they can do to improve on their own leadership. Wyatt Hornsby 27:30 I can't wait Naviere, an exciting new feature on leadership as we just continue to elevate our game. It's going to be really great. Naviere Walkewicz 27:37 It's going to be great. It's going to — that focus on leadership will kick off in October with our second one in December. Wyatt and I want to thank you for joining us today. We can't wait to share the fourth season of Long Blue Leadership with you. Starting this September, you can expect more compelling stories from outstanding Air Force Academy graduates. We like to keep the podcast conversations thoughtful and aimed at telling our guests stories as we explore their personal leadership journeys, their philosophies and their styles. Season 4 promises to engage, inspire and empower. Whether you're an aspiring, emerging or seasoned leader, visit longblueleadership.org for more episodes and past seasons, or nominate a guest or send us your feedback at socialmedia@usafa.org. Long Blue Leadership is available on all your favorites podcast apps. Wyatt Hornsby 28:30 And Naviere, this was such a great conversation, and I want to encourage you, if you've listened to these episodes or you've watched and you were particularly inspired, please share across your social media channels, share with your friends and colleagues and family members, because we really want these conversations to be for anyone who's interested in developing as a leader, regardless of what career pursuit they've taken. Naviere Walkewicz 28:54 We like to say “like, subscribe and share.” There you go. Well, I'm Naviere Walkewicz. Wyatt Hornsby And I'm Wyatt Hornsby. Naviere Walkewicz Until next time. KEYWORDS Leadership, Air Force Academy, mentorship, personal growth, teamwork, perseverance, service, identity, respect, legacy. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
What does it take to lead at every level and shape the leaders of tomorrow? SUMMARY Long Blue Line podcast host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 sat with Maj. Gen. Thomas P. Sherman '95, the U.S. Air Force Academy's vice superintendent, for a deep dive into leadership, humanity and building a world-class service academy. This episode is packed with wisdom for aspiring, emerging, and seasoned leaders alike. SHARE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK GEN. SHERMAN'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS - Leadership is a human experience - focus on connecting with and caring about people. - Love what you do and love the people you lead; passion inspires others to follow you. - Embrace failures and challenges as opportunities for personal growth and development. - Set the right culture and values within your team to build trust and mutual support. - Be present and engaged with your team, understanding their motivations and experiences. - Leadership is about more than rank or position - it's about earning genuine trust and respect. - Invest time in understanding different generations, cultural nuances, and individual perspectives. - Balance professional excellence with personal growth and life experiences. - Support your team's development by providing encouragement and holding them accountable. - Your legacy is built through individual interactions and the positive impact you have on people's lives. CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to Major General Thomas P. Sherman 01:29 Choosing Leadership Over Flying 07:23 The Impact of Mentorship and Values 12:46 Heritage and Evolution of Security Forces 17:43 Personal Growth in Aviano, Italy 24:17 The Importance of Work-Life Balance 29:50 Culminating Command Experience at Bagram 42:25 The Role of Family in Leadership 51:29 Continuous Self-Improvement as a Leader 56:27 Embracing Failure as a Growth Opportunity 01:00:06 Legacy and the Impact of Leadership ABOUT GEN. SHERMAN BIO Maj. Gen. Thomas P. Sherman is the Vice Superintendent of the U.S. Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, CO. He is serving as the chief operations officer to the Superintendent and overseeing the Academy's blend of military training, academics, athletics, and character development for cadets. Gen. Sherman commissioned in 1995 from the Academy with a Bachelor of Science in Political Science. He built a distinguished career as a security forces officer. He's held command at nearly every level. His key assignments include leadership of the 88th Air Base Wing at Wright-Patterson AFB and critical staff positions at the Pentagon. In May 2024, Gen. Sherman was tapped to serve as the Academy's Vice Superintendent CONNECT WITH GEN. SHERMAN LINKEDIN ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Guest, Maj. Gen. Thomas P. Sherman '95 | Host, Lt. Col. (ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz 00:00 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership, the podcast where we share insights on leadership through the lives and experiences of Air Force Academy graduates. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99 today. I'm joined by a leader whose career has taken him from the flight line to the halls of Congress and now back to the very institution that launched it all. Maj. Gen. Thomas P. Sherman currently serves as vice superintendent of the Air Force Academy, where he plays a critical role in guiding the development of our future officers and ensuring the Academy remains a world class institution for leadership, character and Day 1 readiness to win the future fight. A 1995 Academy graduate, Gen. Sherman has spent nearly three decades serving in key operational, strategic and command roles. He's led at every level, from squadron to wing command, and his assignments have included everything from nuclear security enterprise to homeland defense, policy development at the Pentagon, and legislative affairs at the highest levels of the Department of the Air Force. Prior to his role as vice superintendent, Gen. Sherman served in the Office of the Deputy Secretary of Defense, where he was a principal military assistant leading policy integration across joint staff, interagency services and combatant commands. He's perhaps best known in command circles for leading the 88th Air Base wing at Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio, one of the largest and most complex wings in the Air Force, with a focus on people first, leadership and mission excellence. Gen. Sherman, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad you're here too. MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 01:32 It is great to be here. Thank you. Naviere Walkewicz 01:33 We're excited and we're going to dive right in, because I think what is so special for our listeners is really hearing these moments that have changed your life. I'd like to start at the Academy. You turned down a pilot slot. You were rated, but said no. MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 01:48 Well, actually it was a little bit before that. You know, it's kind of interesting, because that was the draw that brought me here, is I just had this incredible passion to want to fly, and I love flying, and I truly enjoyed it, especially through all the different airmanship programs and things like and things like that we had here. The experiences were fantastic. But, you know, as I was starting to learn more about myself going through the Academy, I was starting to feel my heart getting pulled in a direction of wanting to really lead people and really spend a lot of time working with the enlisted. And I think that came from a couple different areas. I think it was some really unique exposure that I got during my ops Air Force time, which I went to Ramstein Air Base in Germany, during ops, and just had our action officer that worked this, I think just did a phenomenal job. And I really started getting pulled to what was then called security police. That is actually when Laurie and I got together and started dating, because Laurie is here in Colorado Springs, but she grew up as an Air Force brat. My father-in-law is a retired Chief Master Sgt., and so there was a lot of mentorship that was taking place around dining room table when I was a young cadet. And I think one of the things that her parents really taught me was just the value of the enlisted force, and so I was feeling my heart really getting pulled. And so obviously, there's a conundrum. There's a conundrum on what were the root desires that brought me here — what were the things that I was learning as a cadet, my joy of flying, and also, particularly the culture at that time, was that that was really the job that you needed to aspire to be, that was the expectation of cadets. And so then to really kind of run counter to that strong current was really kind of a unique, you know, almost unnavigated area, right? And so to really kind of take the story out to its next level is that I'd really gotten to a point where talking with people there — we hadn't had the AMT program, but there were these NCOs that were kind of tangentially attached to cadet squadrons. And so I got a chance to talk to one of the master sergeants that was there who was a maintainer by background. And I was kind of pouring my heart out to him on, you know, what had I been talking to him with my now in-laws, about where was my heart pulling me? And so he said, ‘Give me just a second.' And he picked up the phone, and he called my AOC and he goes, ‘Hey, you're gonna be there for a little while.' And this was a Friday afternoon. He said, ‘I got a cadet that needs to come talk to you.' And he hangs up the phone and he goes, ‘Now you go tell your AOC what you just told me.' And so I ended up going to my AOCs office that day, and we had about a two-hour conversation about this. I sat down and really, kind of took the time to explain to him what was I feeling, And obviously, I really try to see the best in people. And so I think from a noble place, he was doing his best to convince me that I was making a grave mistake. And went on to talk to me about what his concerns were, the career field that I was looking at, things along those lines. And we can save that conversation for another time, but I think really where the foundation came in is where we started to talk about leadership. And you know, what I was asking him to do was to pull my rated recommendation form, so we had just submitted them, and I was asking him to pull my rated recommendation form. I didn't want to compete for it anymore. And so we started to talk about leadership. And he says, ‘Hey, Cadet Sherman, you need to understand that leadership in this Air Force is being the lead F-16 pilot on a bombing run, you know, putting iron on target.' And that's true. It's a very important part of leadership. It is a very important part of tactical operational leadership in this Air Force. So he's not wrong in that space. But I was looking at it from a different lens, and I was looking at it, I think, on a larger level. And what I don't think he realized is that 30 seconds before I walked into his office, he set me up for success. I just happened to be waiting outside the office, and all of a sudden, I looked on his cork board, and somebody, and I don't know who it was, had pinned a note that was written to Airman Magazineby an airman first class. And this airman first class titled this, “I need a leader.” And this A1C felt so strongly about what they were feeling — and I have no idea who this person was — felt so strongly about it that they put pen to paper, and this would have been the fall of 1994, and sent this into Airman Magazine, and it says, “I need a leader.” Commissioning sources. ‘Send us lieutenants that we can look up to that will hold us accountable when we do wrong, that will encourage us when we do well, that will be an example that we can look up to, that will care about us as human beings, because you are not sending them to us now. Air Force, I need a leader.' Like that 30 seconds just before I walked into his office — that changed my life, and it changed my life, because for me, at that moment, what I was getting ready to go ask my AOC to do, what I was looking at inside myself, that became my charge. And so as we spoke, you know, 20-year-old Cadet First Class Sherman — I might have been a 21-year-old at the time — Cadet First Class Sherman pushed back on my AOC, and I said, ‘Sir, I disagree.' I said, ‘I want to be that guy. I want to be that guy that that A1c is asking for on your cork board outside, because that's leadership in this Air Force.' And so, to his credit, he said, ‘Hey, I want you to go think about this over the weekend. You know, think about what you're doing. Come back to me on Monday. No questions asked. I'll pull it if you want me to.' And I left there, and I remember feeling like, not like a weight had been lifted off my shoulder, but I almost felt like this sense of like, ‘Now I've got my purpose,' because that little article has shaped me my entire career, and I mean to this day, and at a scale. You know, as a lieutenant, my scale is this big on what I'm affecting to help do and be what that A1C needs to a wing commander. I always keep it in the back of my head, and after all of these years, I am still thinking about, Am I doing right by that A1C that 31 years ago, felt so strongly about something that they wrote a note to Airman Magazine, and that became my charge. Naviere Walkewicz 08:09 That is incredibly powerful. I'm a little bit without words, because I'm thinking about, first off, being brave enough to disagree with an AOC. I mean, I think that takes courage in showing your leadership there. Were you always like that? Have you always been someone that is steadfast in a decision and being able to kind of speak out? MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 08:30 So I get that from my parents. And, you know, I grew up in Corona, California. My mom and dad are amazing people. And we didn't grow up with a lot of money, and we grew up from a pretty meager background, and my mom and dad had made a decision early on in their marriage, when they had my sister and I, that my mom was going to focus to make sure that Nancy and I got an education, and my dad was going to work as many jobs as he had to to put food on the table. And sometimes my dad was holding down three jobs to make sure that we had nutritious food to eat, and my mom was working miracles to make sure that we were fed well, but that also that she was dedicated and had the time to volunteer for things like PTA, being involved as a class volunteer, making sure that we were involved in things and had exposure to things that what they did was they also instilled in me this really strong blue collar work ethic. And it was this aspect of, if I just roll up my sleeves and put in the work, anything is possible. And so on that line, this young kid growing up with a West Coast father and an East Coast mother, and just this, really neat family background that things for me, that I believed in I would go after with all of my heart and soul. And so I found out about the Academy when I was 12 years old. And so, you know, when I at 12 years — we were going to a community event there in Corona, and there was an officer recruiter — Capt. Craig. was her name — and we started talking. She says, ‘Hey, did anybody talk to you about the Air Force Academy?' And I said, ‘No, this sounds great.' So from there, I just made this decision as a 12-year-old, and I worked all the way through junior high and high school to get here, because to go to your point like, ‘I made a decision, I'm gonna see this thing through.' Naviere Walkewicz 10:30 Whoa. OK, so you knew you were going to the Academy before you graduated high school. MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 10:35 Yes, in my mind, there was no other option. Naviere Walkewicz 10:39 And so anyone in your family serve, or were you the first one in your family to serve? MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 10:43 So I am the first officer and career member of the family. My dad was drafted and went to Vietnam in 1967 and stayed through Tet of 1968. I had an uncle, Harry Lee Schmidt, who was a C-47 loadmaster in World War II and Korea, and my grandfather was actually a part of the initial kind of what was the foundation of the OSS and the Navy doing beach recon on beaches in the South Pacific, prior to island hopping campaign and island landings. And so there was this real heritage of service, right? Just not career service. But even then, as a kid, I always had in my mind, ‘OK, one way or another, I'm going to serve, and if I do an enlistment and then go to college afterwards —' but I had this idea that, ‘OK, I'm going to serve,' and then all of a sudden, this became this amazing conduit that got me here, right? Naviere Walkewicz 11:38 And they also had ties to aviation. How did they feel about your decision, your family? MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 11:43 It was interesting, because they knew how passionate I was about aviation growing up. I mean, we did not miss an air show at March Air Force Base, the Chino air show, which was planes of fame, which was all historic aircraft. I volunteered as a high school student to work there, and we helped restore airplanes with me and my friends. You know, it was interesting, because my parents were very supportive in ‘OK, where's your heart leading you? And, what makes you feel so strongly about this?' Because when I first talked to him on the phone, I called him from Ramstein Air Base and said, ‘Hey, I think I know what I want to do in the Air Force. I want to go to security police. And my mom was like, ‘What's that? And, so, as time went by and I explained it, I think my parents probably all along knew that that was probably going to be a very good fit. And then after commissioning and at my first assignment, I think that they were certain of it, right? Yeah, they were absolutely certain. Naviere Walkewicz 12:37 That is amazing. Well, I want to dive into this profession a bit, because it's interesting. You know, you've mentioned, when you came in, it was security police, and, security forces and you hear people saying defenders and peacekeepers. So there's this lineage and this heritage. Can you maybe talk a little bit about that and then maybe lead us into that next transformational moment that you might have had in this role? MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 12:58 OK, I'm very proud of the fact that, you know, I am part of an ever decreasing group of folks that came in when we were still security police, and that was really still the peacekeeper days, because this was all kind of the follow on on the Cold War. The peacekeepers were our cold warriors and that was a huge part. Our defenders came in and really, that name started to really grow in 1997 when the name changed from security police to security forces, and we were actually going back to some of our heritage that was in Operation Safeside, which was the combat security police squadrons in Vietnam. So when you think about the courage that was displayed during the Tet Offensive at places like Tan Son Nhat that those were safe side warriors that were a part of these combat security police squadrons. And so the very — part of the lineage of the very beret, and flash that we have is actually a tip of the hat to the lighter blue berets, and that flash with the Falcon and the crossed runways that goes back, actually, to our Safeside heritage days. The beret goes back even farther than that. It goes back to Strategic Air Command, Elite Guard back in the 1950s. So it's this great lineage. And so, you know, for me, part of it was like when I got my first beret, wow, that meant something to me. And then, you know, as we then kind of transformed along the way, and this amazing career field grew, and the aspects of this air based ground defense, which was really, I would say, was kind of the draw that got me into wanting to go into security police, was I really liked this idea of, ‘How do we do base defense?' The law enforcement side was intriguing to me, but it was based defense that just had me just had me captivated. Naviere Walkewicz 14:44 And was that something that you found out early in your career? After you graduate the Academy, you're now in security police. Is that when you kind of realized, ‘This is where I want to go in, air, base, ground defense.'? MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 14:54 It even happened at ops. So as we were spending time with the security police squadron, I ended up spending time with a captain who was heading up the Elite Guard, and there was an interaction we had as I was doing a ride along. He's like, ‘Hey, you need to come see me.' And so I went and met up with him, and he took me around and introduced me to all of his airmen that were part of the guard. He knew something all about them. And then we went to his office and talked, and he had gone to Ranger School and Airborne and things like that, and said, ‘Hey, like, the future of the career field is actually us looking to the past.' And really kind of got me fired up on what we call back then, air base ground defense. So when I got to McChord — McChord Air Force Base was my first duty station. And the great thing about going to AMC first is it AMC is a mobility — I mean, it is all about mobility and the operations associated with it. And so the first thing that that my task was as the second lieutenant in that squadron was, I was the air base ground defense flight commander. So that was, I mean — we would go out to Fort Lewis, and we would bivouac for days. And I had, you know, a 44 person team that was a base defense sector. I had specialized K-9 units heavy weapons. And back in those days, we had 81mm mortar teams and fire direction centers that we would set up. So I just got completely on board with the air base defense piece. And so that was that was very passionate for me, which then made the next step to Korea an absolutely logical next location, going to the wolf pack at Kunsan, not only getting a chance to then stand up Gwangju as a part of the first Air Expeditionary Unit to go back to Korea since the Korean War, but then doing the mobile reserve aspect of it. And it was just a great assignment. Naviere Walkewicz 16:40 Wow. So you were right in from the very beginning. You got kind of just into it all. MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 16:45 So when we go back, when you were talking to me about, ‘Hey, when you make your mind up...' So I had this five-year plan built out. And, you know, my five-year plan was ‘OK, I'm gonna do my first assignment at the first opportunity to PCS. I need to go remote. I need to go to Korea. And then, OK, how can I get another overseas assignment after that? And then what do I need?' So the thought was, “Let me get to as many match comms as I can, as fast as I can in my career, and use that as a place — OK, because I want to build my experience base out. Because even as a lieutenant and young captain, I didn't want to come across as a one-trick pony. So my thought was, “Let me just get as much as I could under my belt early on.' And so after I left Kunsan, I ended up going to Aviano Air Base in Italy, which, for me, when you look at like those moments in life that are transformational, this was transformational on a different level. You know, some assignments you go to are very much professional growth assignments. This assignment, for me, was very much a personal growth assignment. Naviere Walkewicz 17:52 OK, so tell me more. MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 17:55 I mean, when you think about it, four years at USAFA, very uniquely focused on a plate that is overflowing with things that you need to get done. So you are, you're focused on, you know, everything from grades to military training to all of those things. And then I get to my first base, and I am just working, and I'm volunteering for everything, and we have got a heavy ops tempo of exercises and things like that. And my leadership was fantastic, because they were throwing me into every opportunity I could. And then, boom, I go to Korea, and that is a unique warfighting focused — and at Kunsan especially was heavily warfighting focused. So now all of a sudden I am spending really, when you think about it, the last almost seven years being uniquely focused on mission, right? And so I get to Aviano Air Base, Italy, and the first thing that happens is Operation Allied Force kicks off. So I get there in January, boom. Allied Force kicks off. I think it was in end of February, beginning of March. And wow, what? Again, what an amazing, mission focused experience. And then after we finished up Allied Force and the base returned back to more of its steady-state standpoint, it was the Italians that took me under their wings, that because I made a specific choice, because I grew up — my mom's side of the family are all Italian immigrants — and I was always at my Nonnie and Papa's house, and there was just a lot of that growing up, which is that whole, like, you know, West Coast dad, East Coast mom thing, but I didn't know, you know, my mom and her brothers never spoke Italian. And there was a lot of that, that thought back in those days that, you know, ‘Hey, we're here to be American, so we're going to learn English, and we're not going to speak, you know, the language that we came from,' right? And so my mom and her brothers really never learned to speak Italian. And so my thought was, ‘Gosh, I grew up with this as such a strong part of my childhood that I need to put myself in a position where I can learn the language and start to kind of get an appreciation on the culture. Together.' And so I specifically — and really lucked out on a location, but I was about 20 kilometers away from Aviano. I was in an amazing town. I was the only American living in the complex that I was in. So I was like, ‘If I'm going to learn, I need to just dive in the way that you do, in the way that I do, and just start learning.' And so I ended up kind of building this support group of Italian families that all kind of took me under their wings. Naviere Walkewicz 20:27 Wait, I have to ask you a question, because back when you're at the Academy, you said you spoke to your now in-laws. So was Laurie not a part of this? MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 20:35 So Laurie and I, right. So that's an important part of the story. Laurie and I dated for two years while I was a cadet, and when I was in tech school, her and I made the very difficult decision — and as painful it was — to part ways, so her and I actually parted ways for a few years. I was single at the time. Laurie was still here in Colorado Springs, and I was getting a lot of assignments under my belt, which, to be honest with you, you know, in retrospect, it was very fortunate, because I may not have made the same assignment choices had I been married at the time. And because I wasn't married, there were no other variables that I needed to factor in, other than personal experience goals, right, that I wanted to play into, and so I could just put down whatever assignment I wanted, and that allowed me the opportunity to just focus on job. And while Laurie and I stayed in touch, and I stayed in touch with her parents over the years, I was in Aviano, and her and I were not together at that point, Naviere Walkewicz 21:39 That makes sense. I was like, why were you alone in Italy? MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 21:43 It's a fair question. But I also think that being single in that environment allowed me — and that's where I think it helped me develop as a person. And so there are a lot of, I think, really wonderful things that happened during that time, and that was because I was so uniquely mission focused. It was these, this amazing group of Italian friends together, that really kind of taught me about there, there's a time to relax, you know, there's a time to work, there's a time to relax, and there's also a real human need to enjoy life and enjoy time together, which is quintessentially Italian. And so, as my pool of this, these amazing people — that by the way, for the last 25 years, we've been going to visit. It's the same families that took me under their wings when I was a lieutenant, are the same families that were all tuning in as we were doing a live stream of me pinning on my second star. And so I've never been stationed anywhere else in my career where I felt more at home. And so I think this sense of like, ‘Wow. This like independently as my own person, this feels like home.' And as time went by and I started to get an appreciation for actually things that were a part of my childhood. Because, you know, we would have these long, huge meals, we would spend four or five hours at the table as a family. And for me, this was all normal. Well, that was also a part of kind of normal Italian life and normal Italian culture. You're not going out to dinner with your friends unless you're investing at least three hours at the restaurant. But for me, this was all — this felt normal to me. And so it was about, you know, you don't need to eat your food in five minutes. Naviere Walkewicz So contrary to USAFA, by the way. MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN You know, you don't need to chew no more than seven times and swallow. So it was about experiencing that, and learning even just some things that became personal passions. Like, you know, how wine is made and why wine pairing matters, and how is this process? And so all of a sudden, this personal experience — and I think growing as a human being was taking place there, and I was maturing as a human being because I had gotten all of this phenomenal job experience under my belt, but this was where I was growing as a human being. And you know what's interesting, as time has gone by, I have noticed just how impactful that time was, because there are things that I've noticed, even as a senior officer, that I feel very strongly about, that I don't think I felt as strongly about as a junior officer, and it was because of that experience, and it was the aspect of when people are on leave, let's let them take leave. There is a part of the human experience that you need to enjoy time with people that you care about, because what it does is you're not slacking off from work. You're not leaving everybody hanging. What's happening is that, because you're taking some time to just enjoy life with people you care about, when you come back, the restorative effects that have taken place because you simply breathe and you enjoyed what it was that you were doing and whatever your passion was, you know, unencumbered, you could enjoy that. And we all realize that there are times, especially as you get into positions of authority, that, hey, they're going to need to call you periodically. But what was interesting is that, especially, I mean, I'll give an example as a wing commander. As a wing commander, despite realizing how important that mission is and how big Wright-Patt was, we, Laurie and I took leave, and we took two weeks of leave, and we went back to Italia and visited our friends and enjoyed life, because the culture helps us to slow down. But what it also did is I gave my staff some parameters. ‘Hey, here are the things that I think are important, like on a scale of one to 10. Here are the things that I think are an eight. So an eight or higher, call me. Don't text me.' I said, ‘Physically call me, because I will answer the phone knowing it's for — and then you have my undivided attention.' But what it also does is it means that my vice wing commander who is there, that I am empowering my vice wing commander and showing to everybody else I trust this leader to lead this wing in my absence. And if it's something that really needs my involvement, they'll get a hold of me. But I think our junior leaders need to see that at the senior most levels, that I can physically trust and emotionally trust my vice, my deputy, to hold things down while I'm gone, and that I'm not irreplaceable, and that if I did my job as a leader, I set the conditions that allowed the wing to thrive in my absence, and didn't mean that the wing had to hang on every decision I made or every word that I said, that I set the conditions that allowed them to be successful and fostered the leadership that allowed them to lead in my absence. And I felt great while I was gone, because I knew the people that we had there, and I knew the investment that we made in them. So that was kind of a long, you know, trip around this… Naviere Walkewicz 27:26 I mean, I think it was so powerful that you kind of learned that about yourself in Italy. And then would you say that there was anyone that you saw emulating that? Or was it just something over time, you developed this realization that you need to enjoy life and you need to allow people the space to do so. MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 27:43 So I would say the people that I was emulating in that aspect were a lot of the families that were there. I have been fortunate that I have worked for some commanders who, at different times in their life felt the same way. Conversely, I also worked for commanders that did not feel the same way. And, you know, an interesting case in point on something that on an experience I had in a command bill and after I had left Aviano — this is when Laurie and I were back together; we were married at this point. I had a group commander that was frustrated about me taking leave and called me every day at 1500; every day at 1500 I got a telephone call. And you know what that does is now all of a sudden, you're eating lunch, and the clock is getting closer to 1500 and you start to get that knot in your stomach and you're like, ‘OK, what are we going to talk about today?' And so, unfortunately you don't see some of the same appreciation for that across the board. So how do we deal with it? The best thing that we deal with it is that that's where the buck stops. We don't pass it down to our people. So after I got the call from him, I didn't call back to the squadron. I got the call from him. We went through the call, we answered the questions, and I didn't then immediately turn around and call back to my ops officer who was running the Squadron at the time, and say, XYZ. And we just left it there, because at that point in time, the bucks got to stop it at that point. So I think that that's kind of the, you know, the alpha and the omega of learning and then also having your own personal resilience and courage to say, ‘I accept that the buck stops here, and I'm not going to let this roll downhill to my people.' Naviere Walkewicz 29:41 That's an excellent leadership lesson, because I was going to ask you, ‘What does that look like, and how would you how would you handle that?' And so you went right into that. Thank you so much for that. So what has it been like leading security forces — defenders? What's it been like? Has there been a moment in time where — a particular assignment or something's really stuck into your mind or into your heart, because it's just really affected you? MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 30:05 Absolutely. I will tell you, as we go back, as we were kind of talking about decisions that you make in your youth, and that critical decision that I made in the fall of '94 I mean, I have worked with some of the most amazing people I've worked in my life. I have gotten a chance to go to places I never thought that I would see. And so, when you kind of roll up, I would say it was my final squadron command, and I would say that that was a real culminating squadron command. So I commanded four squadrons, and we command early, and we command often, and there's a lot of responsibility that that's placed on us as young officers to command as a young officer. And so having the opportunity to command two times as a captain, or one time, you know, as a major-select, then as a major, then as a lieutenant colonel. So that culminating command would have been Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan in May of 2012 to May of 2013 and you know, it was interesting because all of my previous squadron commands had all been vested in either the contingency response or the kind of combat contingency environments. And it was almost like all of those were leading me to this moment. So let me just kind of set the conditions on what Bagram was like at that point in time. We had grown the squadron to about a 1,200-person squadron, huge squadron. And what we were also responsible for is we had taken over battle space ownership from the Army. So the Air Force was controlling 220 square miles of battle space throughout Parwan province, which is a huge. I mean, it's twice the size of Washington, D.C., if you want to try to give a comparison, more or less is fair to look at that level as just a huge amount of terrain in which our airmen were responsible from everything from humanitarian operations and goodwill outreach to engagements to literal kinetic action and combat in the battle space. And so a part of this culmination was, was an environment where as the defense force commander — as that squadron commander to them as a lieutenant colonel at that point — I mean how we are weaving ourselves into their lives, and how we are working with their section commanders, and how we're working and managing the value of our perimeter defenses with our teams that were going outside of the wire doing legitimate patrolling and engagement and things along those lines, was huge. And I think that that is an example. And when you look in the rearview mirror to say, ‘Gosh, now this, a lot of this makes sense, like all of these assignments, whether by design or whether by fate, somehow gave me an experience that at this moment, I needed it most.' And I think, as I talk, we've really enjoyed being here with the cadets and talking to them about, how does a leader really develop trust, and how does trust really manifest itself? And so, through the time that we were there, and the engagement as their leader — not just the leader who's just simply circulating, because that's important, but they also need to see your decision making and your strategic thought. And how do you react under pressure? How are you reacting as we've got incoming in, and what do you do being the person in the joint defense operations center, helping to manage that, and how are you both taking care of people, and how are you managing mission? And they see that. And so I would say that the development of that level of trust, especially in an environment where you are literally dealing with high costs, is huge. And so I think there was one, situation that really rests on my heart that and I don't talk about this to give validation, but I think I talk about it on it's about how people connect, and why do I feel so strongly that leadership is a human experience, like this is a what we are doing as a human experience. And so I was retiring my chief. So I was asked by my chief at Bagram — this was some years later. He's out of the 105th Base Defense Squadron out of the New York Air National Guard, and him and I were a phenomenal team there. Dave Pritchard and I just made a great team. And so he was retiring, and asked me to come back and do his retirement. So we had done the retirement ceremony. We were at the VFW afterwards, having his after-party and so forth. And so I had gone into the bathroom for a comfort break and washed my hands and things like that. And I noticed, as I was kind of moving towards the bathroom, there was kind of a young man who was kind of floating. You know, floating around. And so I came out of the restroom as I was finished, and he was waiting there at the exit of the restroom for me, and kind of, you know, got in front of me, and he stood there, and he looked at me, and he goes, ‘Hey, sir, I just, I needed to let you know this, that I was one of the airmen in one of your patrols that got hit by an IED, and he said, your investment in us, and the words that you used and when you came to talk to us, and the faith that you had in us gave me the courage to go back outside of the wire when you asked us to go back outside.' And so why that rests so heavy is when you think about what, what is the what is the con? The consequence there is that somebody believed in you so much that when you spoke to them and said the word, they were going to go back out and do it again, in spite of what had just happened to you. And I don't think there is any stronger level of trust that you can ask from somebody than to have one of those moments. And so that moment just resides very, very heavy on my soul, because I think it puts into real, tangible context, what is the responsibility of leadership? What is your responsibility of leadership? Naviere Walkewicz 36:42 I'm letting that sit a little bit, because I can't even imagine the amount of feeling that you had first for him, the courage to share that with you. Because I'm sure that he really wanted to share that. I'm curious if you can remember perhaps, what he might have been referring to, like what you were sharing with the men and women there. MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 37:02 So, you know, it was also a part of things that, in times after Bagram have really been used for me as a senior leader on why I reinforced the importance of values. And, this was one particular incident there that really comes to mind is, and I use this when I when I talk to people, because I again, it's the consequence, and it's why our responsibility as leaders to set the right conditions and culture and all of that is so incredibly valuable. And so I talked to people about a story about we had had a situation where we had some real destabilization in the battle space. There was a particular village that we were having some unique challenges with, and we were doing a lot of kind of battlefield shaping, and we were doing some particular village engagement, and the engagement just wasn't happening. And so we were now kind of starting to escalate our interaction with the village a little bit more and as we were doing that, we were now going to start doing more shaping operations. So it just so happens that one of these nights —this was in the late fall, early winter of 2012 — and we were sending one of our patrols outside to do some shaping and engagement operation there. But this was in the evening. This was a different aspect that we were working for this particular mission. And so mounted up that the airmen are ready to go. They're pushing outside, they're right on time, and everything is going according to plan, and they are getting close to what we call the objective rally point. So that was where they were going to rally up before they actually moved into the village after that. And so everything was going according to plan. And the only thing they needed to do before they got to the objective rally point was really kind of go down a small gully over a rise, and then they meet at their objective rally point at that point. And so teams are moving out. First truck over the rise, getting to the point. Second truck over, everything's going fine. Third truck over, fourth truck after that, BOOM, off goes the IED. And what had happened is, they were waiting for this opportunity, and they knew exactly what to do. And that is, if you hit the last truck in the movement, you've got three trucks that are gone ahead of time, and now we've got folks in a very precarious situation. And so what I talk to people about, when we talk about conditions and the real impact that a leader has, is I'll talk to them about who was in that truck, who was in that MRAP that we were sending down at that point in time. And inside that MRAP was the face of America. And the explosion was significant, and it did some considerable damage. It threw the engine out of it, penetrated the hole, ripped one of the doors off the side in the front. And so, you know, the truck commander was National Guard from, actually from Tennessee, and he had gotten injured, broken an arm because that door had peeled back. And as the door peeled back, his arm got caught and broke his arm. The driver, Asian American coming out of the state of California, active duty. He had injuries to his legs because of the penetration of the hole. We had a gunner up in the turret, African American female from the New York Air National Guard. She had a broken pelvis at the time, and she just stayed on the gun the entire time despite her injuries. We had our radio operator. European American female coming from the Midwest. She was actually Air Force Reserve. She had a case of TBI from the explosion, and she was still making calls on the radio. We had two of our riflemen in the back, both came from Hispanic heritage, one of them from Puerto Rican heritage, one of them from Mexican heritage. They were very fortunate that while they got tossed around the back and had some minor TBI issues, they were more or less bumps and bruises, and they were all by themselves. Yeah, because they were all alone, they were in the middle of Afghanistan, they had just gotten hit. And so for me, what's so important about that story is that if we did not set the right culture and the right values and the right expectations and be in a leader by example, and they were harassing each other on Bagram, and they were assaulting each other on Bagram, and they weren't respecting each other on Bagram, and they didn't care about each other on Bagram, they would have died out there that night. But they treated each other like a family, and they cared about each other like a family, and they took care of each other like a family that night, and they lived and they all came home. So for me, if we're going to talk about what is the true consequence of leadership — and I use consequence deliberately, because oftentimes that's used in a pejorative manner — but this is the true result of your actions, that if you don't set those conditions, then you are legitimately putting your people at risk. And so that whole experience at Bagram, and in so many ways that we all carry our scars and our bruises and things like that. I wouldn't trade that experience for the world, but that was tough. And I often describe it as a tale of two cities. You know, it was the best of times. It was the worst of times. Naviere Walkewicz 42:34 I think a lot of times, when leaders go through experiences like that, they have some more fortunate than others, but a support network. And I would guess it would be your family. How has your family played a role in these moments in your life, in helping you as a leader? MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 42:54 So I will say it's primarily my wife. I have got this wonderful support of parents and my in-laws and so forth. And what's been truly fortunate is how close I am with my in-laws. Because when Laurie and I were dating while I was a cadet, anytime I had an overnight or weekend pass, I was over at her mom and dad's house and so I think that being married to somebody that has truly known you from the beginning, you know, where, whether we got a training weekend going on, or something like that, or I'm working first BCT or whatnot, that Laurie was a unique part of all of these things. And I would say that it has been incredibly heartwarming to watch her interact with the cadets here, because it's fun, because her and I do everything together. And so as we're going to events, I'll have a group of cadets that I'm talking to, and then I'll look over and Laurie's surrounded by a group of cadets who are asking her just very insightful questions about our experiences together, and ‘Was it tough sending them away on deployments?' Or how, you know, in those tough times, ‘How do you how do you keep your marriage together?' Just really insightful questions to ask, but she has just been so central to everything that I do. And so going back a little bit and talking about, like the strength of our relationship and how much that helps, we actually needed to have that breakup period as horribly painful as that was, and wow, was I carrying a torch for her all of those years. I mean, I remember, you know, as time was going by, I would talk to my mom, and I'd be like, ‘Mom, I just wish that Laurie could see the man that I become.' But we needed that time because oftentimes, and what we found in ourselves, we didn't know it at the time, because you're living in your environment and you can't see it, right? Is that in youth, things are often absolutes. And you often will get to a place where you're starting your marriage, your relationship is growing. And if you start to talk about marriage, there are things that we have found were absolutes for us. You know, certain things that we did, how we practiced our faith. Did we open up presents on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day, but the expectation was somebody was going to have to give up their particular tradition to conform to the tradition of one of the spouses. And in your youth, that seems reasonable, and I think we needed that time to be apart, having had that time together at such an important time in each of our lives here. But we needed that time apart, because I think we needed that frame of reference as we grew as people into adults. Grew as young adults. And now all of a sudden here I'm getting multiple assignments, and now being thrust into leadership positions with accountability and authority, and then coming back to that, all of a sudden, you're realizing, ‘Gosh, the world just isn't always in absolutes. And maybe a marriage doesn't have to be zero sum, but maybe a marriage can be positive sum.' And do we really have to make somebody give up something that is important to them, that is a part of their identity? Because somehow you feel like you have to conform your marriage into one side or the other. And so, I think for us that was that was so incredibly important. So to kind of get to that story is that, you know, I left Aviano and I went to Al Dhafra. I was in Al Dhafra actually for September 11. It was my first squadron command, but it was a squadron command I wasn't expecting, because I came there as a chief of security forces for about a 70-person security forces flight as a part of the 763rd Expeditionary Air Refueling Squadron at Al Dhafra. And then all of a sudden, 9/11 happens, and we went from about 400 people on Al Dhafra to about 4,000. And you know, U-2s came in, ISR platforms came in. Everything changed. And all of a sudden, this 70-person security forces flight that I had grew into about a 350-person security forces squadron. And AFSET said, ‘Hey, Sherman, you built it, you keep it, and we'll replace you with a major when you leave.' And I was a six-year captain, and so then finishing up that assignment, and I got picked up for — there was a point to that story — but it was about coming back, is that, hey, I got these new, unique experiences that grew me under my belt. And then I came back to do an AFIT program at Cal State San Bernardino. And that was the moment that brought Laurie and I back together. Naviere Walkewicz In what way? MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN And so, I had a health scare. Nobody knows what it was. We never figured it out. Doctors never figured it out. But it was one of those things, like, all of a sudden, I shotgun something out to everybody I knew. I said, ‘Hey, doctors are a little bit concerned, you know, keep me in your thoughts.' And so Laurie, Laurie is like, ‘Holy cow, you can't just send a one liner and leave it at that.' So she called my mom and dad and said, ‘What's his phone number?' And so it started to turn into ‘Hey, give me all of your test results after you get it back.' Then pretty soon we're talking a couple times a week, and then pretty soon we're talking every other day, and then we are talking every day. And the beauty of this was that we already knew each other, so we already knew what everybody's favorite color was — by the way, Laurie's is purple. We knew what music each other liked. We knew things about each other. And some of the things that actually drew us together when we were dating here was, you know, we had things like some common family traditions, like, you know, Italian fish on Christmas Eve and sitting around the table for hours and stuff like that were all things that we had in common. So we already knew that about each other. Now, her and I on the phone, we're getting into some real, like substantive discussions, children, faith. How do you how you raise children? How do you know, what are we going to do for different traditions? What happens if I have to take a remote; what does that mean? And so we were getting into these really, deep conversations. And, you know, I would come back from either class or then when I PCs to the security forces center out at Lackland, you know, I would come home from work, and this was in the old flip phone days where you had a battery that came off the back. So I would have one battery in the charger, and then I would have an earbud in, and I'd have the phone in my pocket. Yeah, and I'd come home and to call her, and we would just go throughout the evening. So I'm ironing BDUs at the time, shining my boots and stuff like that, and so, and we were just talking. And then we were just kind of like living life together. And, after that point, it became very clear that those two young people who sincerely cared about each other, now, each of us grew up and had experiences in a place that allowed us to really appreciate each other and really love each other. And you know, we were married just a little over a year after that. And it has been phenomenal, her support. And I think one of the great testaments to that was, 10 days after we got married, I went to Baghdad, but she's like, ‘I grew up in the Air Force. I know how this works. We're gonna move the house. I'll get the house put together.' And she's also a professional in her own right, which is great. So she was working in a legal office here as a paralegal and legal assistant here in Colorado Springs, and has been a GS employee for the last 18-plus years. So what's great is she, too has her own aspect of service. What I love about it is that in the jobs that she's in and then the jobs that I'm in, we can talk shop, and then we cannot talk shop, right? And so she's the first person I go to if I have to ask a question, she's the first person that I'll go to say, ‘Hey, did I do that right? Or do I need to backtrack on that a little bit?' Because she knows me, and she knows me completely, and that level of trust and love and faith that we have for each other has truly enabled me to be able to serve our airmen on a level that I don't think would have been possible without her. Naviere Walkewicz 51:59 Would you say that she's had a role in your development as a leader, in the way that you lead. MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 52:05 Oh, absolutely, absolutely, because, and I love it, because her experience as a brat and her dad as a chief gives her a very unique lens to look through. And so the advice that she gives me she can give me from her teenage self in some way, you know, from that experience, watching how her dad interacted with something or knowing her aspect about this. And then as she's developed professionally, working on the E-Ring at the Pentagon a couple different times, working for very senior leaders, knows how to navigate that space. So then I'll go to her for advice, like, ‘Hey, how did your boss handle something like this?' ‘Well, let me tell you what, how we work through this...' And so I would absolutely say that that Laurie has uniquely influenced and helped me to become the best version of myself that I can be. Naviere Walkewicz 53:03 Wow. Well, I want to ask you a little bit about developing yourself as well, because one of the questions we like to ask is, what are you doing every day to make yourself a better leader? Can you share what that might be? MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 53:17 I've said it a couple times during this: I truly believe that leadership is a human experience, so for me, it's about the interaction. And so oftentimes, advice that I've given to people — like there are amazing resources abound that can help people, give people leadership perspectives, and we can either learn it from history, or we can learn it through study. We can learn it through analysis. We can learn it through books. And I've always talked to people about use the external tools that help to grow you, but make sure that you're using it to influence the personality that you already have. Because oftentimes what happens is, is that people will have this really strong desire to say, “OK, I want to make sure that I do this right. And so in doing this right, let me make sure I've got my checklist, and so I'm going to greet them, I'm going to ask them how their family is, I'm going to ask them if the kid did all right in the baseball game. And I'm going to go through my checklist, and if I do that, I fulfill my leadership obligation.' Now not everybody does, and I'm making generalities on but, but I think that there can oftentimes be the allure that when you are focusing on what may be the theory or the principle of the day, and not using it to supplement and grow and mature your personality, that there is a strong allure to want to wholesale replicate what it was that you learned, and you're doing it in a noble place. It's not nefarious. It's being done in a noble, genuine place. But there's that allure to say, ‘OK, good, I really like what I've learned. I'm going to do these things and step through.' And so why I talk so much about the experience, and why I talk so much about the interaction, is that the more that you know the people that you may be influencing by just simply being there and understanding what that means. It means you're eternalizing the value of your presence. You're listening to their stories, and you're understanding for them, what are the things that are motivating them? What are the things that they value? Because each generation, each environment, each condition is going to require something a little bit different from you, and if you don't take the time to understand your environment or generation or cultural nuances or things like that on where you're at, then you are missing that opportunity to develop trust, where they start to believe in you as a person, and not just the rank and position that you hold, because they'll do the right thing for the rank and position that you hold. That's the caliber of people that we have in this Air Force of ours. They'll do the right thing. But if you transcend that in the fact that they believe in you wholeheartedly and trust you, oftentimes with their own lives, it means that you've invested something into them, where they truly know that you care. And that goes back to that A1C on the cork board that said, ‘I need somebody who cares about me as a person.' Naviere Walkewicz 56:41 You know, as I think about what you've experienced through your career and the lessons you've learned, both professionally and personally, what would you say to yourself back then that you should be doing back then to get to where you're at now? Because we have listeners that are like, ‘What can I start planting today, that will bloom down the road?' MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 57:03 Absolutely. And so I think if I was to go back and put my arm around Cadet First Class Sherman, I think what I would do is — because it is, it is oftentimes easy to look in the crystal clear mirror of hindsight, right? But I think instead, what I would do is I would put my arm around him and say, ‘Keep following your heart and let the failures happen, because the failures are going to grow and let the stumbles happen and enjoy the triumphs with people and be appreciative for what got you there.' And I think it would be more of the encouragement of like, ‘You have laid out a path for you take the path wherever it goes, the joy, the pain, the triumph, the failure, all of those things, because all of that helps to develop the leader.' And oftentimes you want to go back and say, gosh, if I was going to talk to my previous self, then I would say, ‘Ah, don't do that one thing,' right? But I'm looking at it saying that if I didn't do that one thing, then I'm not sure that I would be where I'm at at a time to make sure I didn't do that thing at a moment that was incredibly catastrophic. And so while we have this desire to want to prevent ourselves from the failure, I think that what we have to do is say you're going to fail and you need to fail, and it's going to sound — relish in the failure, because it is often emotionally troubling, especially those of us that come here because we are Type A perfectionist, and that's part of the draw of coming to this amazing place. Is there a certain personality traits that help us to be successful here, but not all of those personality traits make us uniquely successful in all situations outside, and so you've got to have that failure at some point in time. And the failure that you can get up and say, ‘OK, I did this. This happened. My soul is bruised. My ego is bruised. I may have to take a little bit of accountability for this. OK, now I need to have the courage to take the next step forward again.' Because I could easily retreat back to a safe place, and I could become risk averse, and all that does is hurt the people around you. OK. I have to have the courage to breathe and take the step again and get back in there. So I would tell my — I don't think I would want to prevent myself from doing anything. I think even the growth that took place while Laurie and I were apart — and, like I said, that torch that I carried for her — I think if I had whispered in my ear and said, ‘Hey, just relax, you're gonna marry her.' I think I needed that torch, because that in my own mind and my own emotion was me needing to become a better man, and so I think I needed to go through — like, sometimes you need the struggle, and sometimes the things that are most valuable are the things that you had to go through the struggle for, right? And I think that's where my blue collar ethics background comes in. It's like, I'm just going to roll up my sleeves and I'm going to work through the struggle. Naviere Walkewicz 1:00:36 Wow. Well, we took a look back. I just want to ask you a question forward. So do you think about legacy? And what do you want your legacy to be? Is that something that plays in your mind as you wake up each morning or go to lead people? MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 1:00:50 I think the way that I look at it is, I look at it in a in a different aspect, and the way that I look at it is in a very confined point to point. It's not about what is going to be Tom Sherman's legacy when he retires someday, but was that interaction that I had with somebody to give them some encouraging words when they fell down, did that matter to them at that moment? Because there are people for me in my failures that were commanders, that were leaders, that were mentors, that were senior enlisted, that, you know, grabbed that lieutenant by the arm and helped to lift me up. And their memories are etched in my fabric. And so I think that it's about that individual event that your legacy will live in the people in which you made a difference to them. Naviere Walkewicz 1:01:49 Well, I'll share with you, I was telling my son — he's a cadet, a third-class cadet, actually, now he's about to be a C2C — that I was doing this podcast with you, and he said, ‘What an incredible leader, Mom, he motivates me. He's so inspiring.' So your legacy is already through my son— MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 1:02:05 Thank you! That means — thank you so much for sharing. Naviere Walkewicz 1:02:10 —that you really made an impact. So we're going to get to your final thoughts here in a little bit. But before we do, I want to make sure that you know our podcasts publish on every second Tuesday of the month, and you can certainly listen to Gen. Sherman in any of our other podcasts on longblueleadership.org. So Gen. Sherman, what would you like to leave our listeners with today? This has been incredible, by the way. Thank you. MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 1:02:32 I have truly enjoyed this, and it's just been — it was just wonderful having the conversation with you, and it's in real honor to be a part of this. I truly believe in what you're doing here. Naviere Walkewicz 1:02:43 Thank you. It's my pleasure to help share your story and help inspire others. And is there anything we might leave with our listeners that that they can part with tonight? MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 1:02:51 I think, for me, you need to love what you do and love I think, is one of the most powerful words in language. And I don't just say the English language. I say in language because of the strength behind the meaning and how wide the meaning can be impactful. If you love what you do, people will feel that your very presence will make a difference. They'll feel that if you love what you do, then you're being, you know, internally, inspired by the love that you have for what you're being a part of, right? If you love and care about your people, they will follow you to the ends of the Earth, because they know the passion that you have and the belief that you have in them. So I think that as we go back to these things, we oftentimes look at the terms of courage and love may seem diametrically opposed, and I would attest that you can be most courageous and that your courage will be most effective only when it's buttressed by the love that you have in what you do and who you do it with. Naviere Walkewicz 1:04:08 Thank you, sir, for that. Thank you for being on Long Blue Leadership. MAJ. GEN. SHERMAN 1:04:11 Absolutely. Thank you. This was a wonderful time. It was a real honor. Naviere Walkewicz 1:04:14 Thank you. Well, until next time, I'm Naviere Walkewicz. We'll see you on Long Blue Leadership. KEYWORDS Leadership, Air Force Academy, Major General Thomas P. Sherman, mentorship, personal growth, security forces, work-life balance, family support, continuous improvement, legacy The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Dr. John Torres shares his inspiring journey from being the first in his family to attend college to becoming NBC's senior medical correspondent. SUMMARY Dr. Torres discusses the challenges he faced at the Air Force Academy, the pivotal moments that shaped his leadership skills, and the influence of his family values. He reflects on his unconventional experiences, including survival training and falconry, and how these experiences prepared him for a successful career in medicine and media. His story is a testament to resilience, curiosity, and the importance of mentorship in leadership. In this conversation, he shares his journey from dealing with hantavirus outbreaks in New Mexico to becoming a prominent medical correspondent during the pandemic. Dr. Torres discuss the challenges of communicating complex medical information to the public, the importance of empathy when delivering bad news, and the role of family support in his career. Finally, he emphasizes the need for continuous improvement in leadership and the value of instilling positive values in the next generation. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK DR. TORRES' TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS - Lead with empathy: Understand where people are coming from, recognizing that anger often stems from fear and underlying concerns. - Communicate clearly: Break down complex information into understandable terms, whether speaking to patients, soldiers, or the public. - Be willing to admit mistakes: True leadership means having the courage to acknowledge when you're wrong and take responsibility. - Develop a "no excuse" mentality: Take ownership of situations, even when they're not entirely your fault. - Build trust through peer-to-peer interactions: Treat people as equals rather than using an authoritarian approach. - Continuously learn and adapt: Stay current in your field and be open to new experiences and perspectives. - Support your team's individual growth: Encourage people to pursue their passions and provide guidance without pressure. - Match your emotional delivery to your message: Ensure your communication is authentic and appropriate to the content. - Lead by example: Demonstrate the values and work ethic you expect from others through your own actions. - Focus on purpose over position: Leadership is about making a positive impact and helping others grow, not about title or status. CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to Dr. John Torres 02:01 Overcoming Challenges at the Academy 05:03 Discovering Leadership Through Survival Training 08:33 Influence of Family Values on Leadership 10:42 Unconventional Experiences at the Academy 13:41 Transitioning from Pilot to Medical Doctor 20:06 Lessons Learned as a Flight Doc 23:58 Becoming an NBC Correspondent 24:37 Hantavirus and Early Medical Experiences 26:00 Transitioning to Media: From ER to TV 27:23 The Pandemic: A Super Bowl for Medicine 29:05 Communicating Medical Information Effectively 32:29 Delivering Bad News with Compassion 34:41 Teaching NATO Special Forces Medics 37:02 Family Support and Legacy 39:58 Instilling Values in the Next Generation 41:56 Continuous Improvement as a Leader 45:52 Final Thoughts and Future Aspirations ABOUT DR. TORRES BIO Dr. John Torres '82 is currently Senior Medical Correspondent for NBC News and a graduate of the United States Air Force Academy. With a career spanning more than 30 years in emergency medicine, military service, and national media, Dr. Torres brings a rare blend of clinical expertise, crisis leadership, and public communication to every role he takes on. Before joining NBC, he served in the Air Force, deploying to combat zones and responding to humanitarian crises around the globe. After retiring from the military, Dr. Torres transitioned to civilian emergency medicine and later began sharing trusted medical insights with millions of viewers through his work in broadcast journalism. On camera and off, he is known for making complex medical issues accessible and relevant, especially during moments of national concern like the COVID-19 pandemic. A seasoned leader shaped by experience in the field, the ER, and the newsroom, Dr. Torres exemplifies the values of service, clarity under pressure, and lifelong learning—principles he credits in large part to his upbringing in rural New Mexico, foundational Academy education and military experiences. CONNECT WITH DR. TORRES LINKEDIN ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS: Guest, Dr. John Torres '82 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 KEYWORDS Leadership, Air Force Academy, Dr. John Torres, survival training, medical correspondent, family values, unconventional journey, overcoming challenges, mentorship, public health, Hantavirus, medical communication, pandemic, media, family legacy, leadership, teaching, NATO, bad news delivery, continuous improvement The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
In this edition of Long Blue Leadership, we're exploring the evolution and elevation of leadership with a leader who knows what it means to build champions in every sense of the word. SUMMARY Jemal Singleton ‘99 is a mentor, a motivator, and has gained a mastery of the grind. From the military to the boardroom, the locker room, and NFL victories, he has forged a path rooted in service, strength, and success. Get ready to be inspired. This conversation is about leadership game-planning with a masterful maker of leaders. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK COACH SINGLETON'S LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS - Coach Singleton emphasizes the importance of leading with conviction. - He learned to connect with people through immersive cultural experiences. - The Super Bowl victory was a culmination of focus and teamwork. - Growing up as a military brat shaped his adaptability and leadership. - Family dynamics played a crucial role in his development as a leader. - Discovering the Air Force Academy was a pivotal moment in his life. - Basic training taught him valuable lessons about overcoming fear. - His leadership style evolved through experiences at the Academy. - Transitioning from military to coaching was a significant decision. - Failures in his career have provided the greatest learning opportunities. - Success and failure are both essential for growth. - Belief in others can significantly impact their performance. - Understanding individual motivations is key to effective leadership. - Mentorship plays a crucial role in shaping leaders. - Building relationships is foundational to leadership success. - Balancing family and work is vital for personal fulfillment. - Grit and resilience are important traits in leadership. - Investing in personal growth enhances leadership effectiveness. - Daily routines help maintain focus and discipline. - Leadership can be demonstrated from any position. EPISODE CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to Leadership Insights 04:30 Jamal's Early Life and Military Influence 08:00 Family Dynamics and Leadership Development 11:35 Basic Training and Leadership Challenges 14:52 Growth at the Air Force Academy 18:58 Transitioning from Military to Coaching 21:34 Navigating Career Decisions 22:57 Facing Failures and Learning from Them 26:18 Navigating Success and Failure 27:38 The Power of Belief in Leadership 29:58 Understanding Individual Motivations 32:40 Influences and Inspirations in Leadership 34:05 Building Relationships as a Leadership Foundation 36:02 Balancing Family and Professional Life 38:23 Lessons in Grit from Home 40:38 Investing in Personal Growth 42:41 Daily Routines for Effective Leadership 44:36 Striving for Continuous Improvement 47:27 Leading from Any Position 49:14 Final Thoughts on Leadership and the Academy ABOUT JEMAL BIO Jemal Singleton '99, is a veteran coach with over 20 years of experience at the collegiate and professional levels. He is currently service as the Philadelphia Eagles' running backs/assistant head coach. Under his leadership, the Eagles have made four consecutive playoff runs, capturing two conference titles and the Super Bowl LIX Championship. From 2021–24, Philadelphia led the NFL in rushing touchdowns (108) and ranked among the top three in rushing yards per game (153.9) and yards per carry (4.7). Singleton helped three different running backs earn Pro Bowl honors during this span. In 2024, Singleton coached a historic ground game led by Saquon Barkley, who rushed for 2,005 yards in the regular season and 2,504 total, earning AP NFL Offensive Player of the Year and first-team All-Pro honors. The Eagles set a league record with 3,866 team rushing yards. Previously, Singleton helped guide D'Andre Swift (2023) and Miles Sanders (2022) to their first Pro Bowls, with both ranking in the top five in rushing yards. In 2021, Philadelphia led the league in both rushing yards and touchdowns. Before joining the Eagles, Singleton coached running backs for the Bengals (2019–20), Raiders (2018), and Colts (2016–17), mentoring talents like Joe Mixon, Jalen Richard, and Frank Gore. His collegiate experience includes Arkansas (2015) and Oklahoma State (2011–14), where he coached standout backs such as Alex Collins and Joseph Randle. Singleton began his coaching career at the Air Force Academy, his alma mater, spending nine years in various roles and helping the Falcons consistently rank among the top rushing teams in the nation. A former team captain and honorable mention All-WAC running back, Singleton led Air Force to consecutive 10-win seasons and a conference title. A San Antonio native and son of a retired Air Force Sergeant, Singleton holds a degree in social sciences and lives with his wife, Jennifer, and their two daughters, Morgan and Mallory. - Bio excerpted from philadelphiaeagles.com - Image credit: Mr. Ryan Hall CONNECT WITH JEMAL LINKEDIN | PA EAGLES WITH OUR SPECIAL APPRECIATION TO THE EAGLES' PRODUCTION TEAM Eagles Team (Center L-R): JohnPaul Beattie | Wes Lauria | Kelleher | Haley Mccullough | Alex Barson (L) LBL Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 | (R) Guest, Jemal Singleton '99 - Image credit: Mr. Ryan Hall ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS GUEST: Jemal Singleton '99 | HOST: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 KEYWORDS Leadership, Air Force Academy, coaching, Super Bowl, mentorship, personal growth, military influence, sports, resilience, career decisions, leadership, success, failure, motivation, personal growth, relationships, coaching, NFL, family, grit The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
From A-10 combat missions to three Super Bowl championships, Chad Hennings has led in the air, on the field, and now—through character-based leadership.----more---- SUMMARY In the latest episode of Long Blue Leadership, Chad shares pivotal lessons from two leadership crucibles: flying in combat and transitioning from military life to the NFL. We also talk about his work today helping others lead with moral courage, through business, mentorship, and his Forces of Character podcast. SHARE THIS CONVERSATION LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK CHAD'S TOP LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS - Chad chose to fulfill his military commitment over NFL opportunities. - Commitment and integrity were instilled in him from a young age. - Athletics served as a leadership laboratory for Chad. - Leadership is about setting an example for others. - Identity is not defined by what you do, but who you are. - Struggles and obstacles are essential for personal growth. - Character development requires strong relationships and feedback. - Kinetic character means actively working on your character. - Resilience is built through overcoming challenges. - True fulfillment comes from relationships, not material success. Visualization is key to understanding identity and leadership. - Leadership is about serving others, not just personal gain. - True leadership involves modeling behavior for others. - Identity is foundational for making sound decisions. - Transitioning from structured environments can challenge one's identity. - Don't compromise your values to fit in with a group. - Creating community is essential for personal growth. - Daily practices like devotionals can set the tone for leadership. - A growth mindset is crucial for continuous improvement. - Character and integrity are essential for effective leadership. CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to Leadership and Commitment 02:02 Crossroads: Choosing Commitment Over Opportunity 05:58 Lessons from Athletics and Leadership 11:47 The Evolution of Identity and Purpose 16:07 Character Development Through Struggles 21:50 Kinetic Character: The Importance of Relationships 24:04 Visualizing Identity and Leadership 29:12 Navigating Transitions and Identity 32:07 Building Community and Legacy 38:09 Daily Practices for Effective Leadership 40:49 The Importance of Mindset in Leadership 42:08 Character and Integrity in Leadership 43:06 Encouragement for Aspiring Leaders ABOUT CHAD BIO Chad learned the value of hard work, trust, and integrity growing up on his parent's farm in Iowa. Those lessons became central to the life he's lived since with unwavering character. From the fields of Iowa to the skies over Iraq, Chad's journey took him from the U.S. Air Force Academy where he earned academic All-American honors and won the Outland Trophy as the nation's top lineman, to flying 45, A-10 combat and humanitarian missions in the first Gulf war. It was only after fulfilling his commitment to serve that Chad entered the NFL. He was 27 at the time and went on to win three Super Bowl championships with the Dallas Cowboys. Today, Chad continues to lead from the front. He's a speaker and he's authored several books including It Takes Commitment, Rules of Engagement, and Forces of Character. He founded Wingmen Ministries and is a principal in Rubicon Representation, where he helps businesses grow through meaningful relationships and synergy. He's also the host of his new podcast, Forces of Character, where he shares stories of moral courage and principled leadership, including two periods in his life as a developing and growing leader that ultimately became crucibles. One of those in the cockpit in combat and another transitioning from the military to the NFL. FORCES OF CHARACTER PODCAST Chad Hennings, renowned author and former professional NFL athlete, is excited to announce the upcoming launch of his new project, the Forces of Character Podcast, slated for release in early 2025. Based on the principles outlined in his bestselling book, Forces of Character, the podcast will feature insightful interviews with extraordinary individuals who have demonstrated unwavering character and a noble purpose in their personal and professional lives. LISTEN HERE - Copy and image courtesy of Chad Hennings and Forces of Character CONNECT WITH CHAD LINKEDIN | RUBICON REPRESENTATION ON LINKEDIN ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Our guest: Chad Hennings '82 | Our host: Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz '99 KEYWORDS Leadership, commitment, character, Air Force Academy, NFL, personal growth, identity, resilience, mentorship, purpose, leadership, identity, visualization, transitions, community, legacy, daily practices, mindset, character, integrity The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
In this edition of Long Blue Leadership, host Naviere Walkewicz '99 talks with Emma Przybyslawski '10, an Air Force Academy graduate whose path has taken her from the front lines of tactical special operations in combat zones to the founder's chair at Strike Solutions. SUMMARY With 1,634 confirmed kills, and personal threats from ISIS, Emma knows what high-stakes leadership looks like. She opened up about her transition to the tech world, the power of the Air Force Academy network, and the role that courage, flexibility, and humor play in both survival and success. Whether you're in uniform or in a startup, Emma's insights on active listening and continual growth are essential to your success as a developing or seasoned leader. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK EMMA'S 10 BEST LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS Leadership Requires Courage and Action “You have to be courageous and lean forward… even when you're not sure.” → Leaders don't wait for certainty—they move, learn, and adapt. Course Correction Is a Leadership Strength “You're not always going to get it right, but you can course correct.” → Mistakes aren't fatal if you're willing to pivot and improve. Ownership Is the Price of Admission to Elite Teams “You meet the standard or exceed it—or you're not on the team.” → High-performance cultures are built on individual accountability. Active Listening Builds Trust and Influence “Sometimes somebody just needs you to listen… and engage without fixing.” → Listening is one of a leader's most powerful tools. Feedback Isn't Personal—It's Growth Fuel “Ask for feedback—and be willing to take it.” → Good leaders seek the truth about themselves, even when it stings. You Can Lead From Any Seat Emma's career includes transitions from cadet to combat controller to business owner. → Title doesn't define leadership—character and action do. Clarity of Standards Drives Excellence “There was no rank—just performance. You either deliver or you're gone.” → Clear expectations reduce confusion and elevate teams. Mission Over Ego Her willingness to return to the Academy after leaving shows humility. → Leadership often means swallowing pride for a greater goal. Diversity Demands Curiosity, Not Assumptions “Ask people about their experience—don't assume you understand it.” → Inclusive leaders replace judgment with curiosity. Leaders Multiply Leadership “Your leadership should raise the waterline for everyone around you.” → Leadership is about impact—lifting others as you grow. CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to Emma Prisboslawski's Journey 01:26 Life in Special Operations 07:02 Navigating Chaos: A Day in Emma's Life 10:40 The Academy Experience: A Personal Journey 18:04 Leadership Lessons from Military Experience 27:52 The Importance of Active Listening in Leadership 28:21 The Power of Listening and Empathy 29:51 Navigating Career Transitions 32:18 Embracing Technology and Innovation 35:55 The Importance of Networking 36:24 Building Strike Solutions 37:48 Navigating the Vast Tech Landscape 40:14 Learning from Mistakes 42:31 Giving Back to the Academy 46:31 Continuous Self-Improvement and Leadership ABOUT EMMA BIO Emma Przybyslawski '10 is the daughter of Mj. Gen. (Ret.) Anthony '76 and Priscilla Pzybyslawski. She spent her childhood counting the number of states she lived in as a military brat. While at the Academy, she loved living in Cadet Squadron 19 and eventually led the Wolverines as Squadron Commander to Outstanding Squadron of the Year. Upon graduation, Emma was commissioned as a special operations intelligence officer and spent her Air Force career either overseas supporting counterdrug efforts or counterterrorism operations in the Middle East; she was awarded a Bronze Star during her last deployment for her combat efforts in Iraq. She decided to separate from the Air Force in 2016 and started her civilian career in the high-tech industry. Emma has since founded Strike Solutions, a defense company focused on bringing advanced technology solutions to various DoD operational mission sets. In her free time, she has a passion for traveling, food, spending time with family and friends, and sports – but all of those things are best enjoyed with her husband and Air Force pilot Chris Spach and their Bernese Mountain Dogs, Gunner and Harley. CONNECT WITH EMMA LINKEDIN | STRIKE SOLUTIONS ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS GUEST: Emma Przybyslawski '10 | HOST: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 KEYWORDS leadership, resilience, military, special operations, personal growth, Air Force Academy, women in combat, entrepreneurship, active listening, mentorship, leadership, empathy, career transition, technology, networking, innovation, military, Air Force Academy, personal growth, mentorship The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
A view of leadership and character development through the eyes and actions of a world-class athlete. SUMMARY For NCAA Division I heavyweight wrestling champion and newly commissioned 2nd Lt. Wyatt Hendrickson '24, what happens on the mat informs how he manages conflict, planning, strategy and tactics, and most importantly, his development as a leader. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK WYATT'S TAKEAWAYS - Wyatt's journey exemplifies leadership and perseverance. - The Air Force Academy provided a strong foundation for Wyatt. - Pivotal moments can change the trajectory of one's life. - Tattoos can tell a personal story and hold deep meaning. - Winning the NCAA title was a culmination of hard work and strategy. - Mindset and planning are crucial in wrestling and leadership. - Family support plays a significant role in personal success. - Mastering the basics is essential for excellence in any field. - Call signs reflect identity and values in the military. - God's plan often unfolds in unexpected ways. Adversity can lead to personal growth and resilience. - Mental strength is crucial in competitive sports. - Reaching out for help is essential for overcoming challenges. - Building a strong foundation in skills is vital for success. - Wrestling teaches valuable life lessons about failure and perseverance. - Enjoying the journey is as important as achieving goals. - Hard work is the only path to success; there are no shortcuts. - Self-motivation is key to personal and professional growth. - Doing little things right builds good habits and character. - Faith and gratitude play a significant role in success. CHAPTERS 00:00: Introduction to Leadership and Perseverance 02:07: The Journey to the Air Force Academy 05:56: Defining Moments and Personal Growth 09:57: Tattoos and Their Significance 14:03: The NCAA Championship Experience 18:03: Mindset and Training in Wrestling 22:05: Call Signs and Identity 26:00: Family Background and Support 27:06: Overcoming Adversity in Wrestling 30:40: The Mental Game of Wrestling 35:15: Building a Strong Foundation 38:01: Lessons from Wrestling and Military 40:34: Training for the 2028 Olympics 42:08: Finding Joy in the Journey 44:42: Navigating Sponsorships and NIL 47:03: The Importance of Doing Little Things Right 50:48: Self-Motivation and Purpose 54:02: Closing Thoughts and Gratitude ABOUT WYATT HENDRICKSON BIO 2nd Lt. Wyatt Hendrickson '24 is a wrestler known for his remarkable collegiate career and service in the United States Air Force. He gained national attention in 2025 by winning the NCAA heavyweight championship, defeating Olympic gold medalist Gable Steveson in a dramatic upset. Early Life and High School Career Hendrickson comes from Newton, Kansas, and is the son of Todd and Lynnette Hendrickson. At Newton High School, he was a standout wrestler, becoming a two-time Kansas state champion and a three-time finalist. He earned All-American honors in freestyle, Greco-Roman, and folkstyle wrestling, and won national titles at the NHSCA Senior Nationals and FloNationals. Collegiate Wrestling Career Air Force Academy Initially hesitant about a military path, Wyatt was persuaded by his father to attend the U.S. Air Force Academy. There, he became one of the most dominant heavyweight wrestlers in NCAA history. He was a five-time NCAA qualifier, two-time Big 12 champion, and two-time NCAA All-American, finishing third nationally in both 2023 and 2024. He led the nation in pins for three consecutive seasons and was twice named the NCAA Most Dominant Wrestler. He concluded his Air Force career with a 103–11 record, becoming the program's all-time leader in pins. Oklahoma State University Due to the COVID-19 pandemic, Wyatt had an extra year of eligibility. As a member of the Air Force's World Class Athlete Program, he was allowed to delay active-duty service to pursue Olympic training. This enabled him to transfer to Oklahoma State University for the 2024–25 season. Fulfilling a childhood dream, he joined the Cowboys and went undefeated (27–0), culminating in his victory over Gable Steveson in the NCAA finals. Personal Life and Military Service Wyatt holds the rank of second lieutenant in the U.S. Air Force and is pursuing an MBA at Oklahoma State University. His unique journey from a small-town Kansas wrestler to NCAA champion and military officer exemplifies dedication and perseverance. MORE ON WYATT HERE: CONNECT WITH WYATT INSTAGRAM | LINKEDIN ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS: Guest, 2nd. Lt. Wyatt Hendrickson '24 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 KEYWORDS Leadership, perseverance, Air Force Academy, wrestling, NCAA champion, personal growth, mindset, tattoos, family support, call signs, wrestling, adversity, mental strength, Olympic training, leadership, self-improvement, Air Force Academy, sponsorships, NIL (Name, Image, Likeness), personal growth GALLERY The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation
Jake DeRuyter, a 2015 Air Force Academy graduate, shares a compelling leadership journey marked by unexpected challenges and resilient adaptation. ----more---- SUMMARY Initially aspiring to be a pilot, Jake faced a critical moment when back surgery disqualified him from his dream career, forcing him to quickly choose a new Air Force Specialty Code within just one hour. Despite the uncertainty, he remained calm and strategic, ultimately transitioning to intelligence and then to an ROTC instructor role. His leadership philosophy emerged from these experiences: staying flexible, maintaining a strong network, and focusing on developing others rather than just personal advancement. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK JAKE'S LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS - Always be willing to adapt and stay resilient when unexpected challenges arise, like Jake did when he couldn't become a pilot and had to quickly choose a new career path. - Build and maintain a strong network of connections, as these relationships can help you navigate career transitions and provide support. - Focus on developing the people around you, not just your own career advancement. A great leader lifts up their team and helps others grow. - Stay proactive in reaching out to people, checking in, and genuinely listening to their stories and experiences. - Be willing to take risks on talented individuals, especially those from similar backgrounds or networks, like how Jake was given an opportunity by fellow graduates. - Maintain a competitive spirit and drive, but channel it into continuous self-improvement and supporting others. - Give back to your community, whether through mentoring, volunteering, or leading local chapters and organizations. - Be prepared to put in consistent daily effort, understanding that success comes from habits and persistent hard work. - Stay open to unexpected opportunities and be willing to pivot when your initial career path doesn't work out. - Prioritize relationships and connections over individual achievements, recognizing that your success is often measured by the people you've helped develop. JAKE'S TOP 5 LEADERSHIP LESSONS Here are the 5 best leadership lessons from Jake DeRuyter's interview: Build Others Up, Not Just Yourself Jake emphasized that true leadership is about developing the people around you. As he said, "Don't just worry about your own career and life" - great leaders are judged by the success of those they mentor and support. Stay Adaptable and Resilient When Jake's pilot career was unexpectedly derailed, he demonstrated the critical leadership skill of staying calm under pressure and quickly pivoting. He chose to focus on what he could control rather than getting stuck on what he couldn't change. Maintain Genuine Connections Jake consistently stressed the importance of reaching out, checking in with people, and truly listening. He makes time to connect with classmates, colleagues, and fellow graduates, understanding that relationships are the foundation of effective leadership. Take Calculated Risks and Support Others Jake's career trajectory shows the importance of being willing to take risks - both for yourself and for others. He was given a chance by fellow graduates and now pays it forward by helping other transitioning military members. Give Back Consistently Leadership isn't just about personal achievement, but about contributing to your community. Jake exemplifies this through his role as chapter president, mentoring cadets, and always being available to help fellow Air Force Academy graduates. EPISODE CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to Leadership Journeys 05:31 Navigating Life's Crossroads 12:01 The Role of Mentorship and Family 17:31 Transitioning from Military to Civilian Life 20:48 Motivation and Personal Drive 22:02 The Daily Grind: A Shift in Focus 24:31 Building Community: Chapter Leadership 27:29 Challenges of Leadership and Engagement 29:00 Giving Back: The Importance of Community 31:12 Leadership Lessons: Daily Practices 32:53 Advice for Aspiring Leaders 34:25 Reflections on Involvement and Connection 36:40 Final Thoughts and Gratitude ABOUT JAKE BIO As a 2015 graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, Jake spent six years on active duty serving as an Intel Officer and ROTC Instructor. Having left the service, he now am an Account Executive on the Air Force team at IMPRES Technology Solutions providing active duty units with the tech they need to accomplish the mission. - Copy courtesy of Jake DeRuyter and LinkedIn CONNECT WITH JAKE LINKEDIN | ASSOCIATION OF GRADUATES - CENTRAL TEXAS CHAPTER ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS GUEST, JAKE DERUYTER '15 | HOST, LT. COL. (RET.) NAVIERE WALKEWICZ '99 Naviere Walkewicz 00:00 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership, the podcast where we share insights on leadership through the lives and experiences of Air Force Academy graduates. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. My guest today is Jake DeRuyter, Class of '15, currently an account executive with Impress Technology and the president of the Central Texas Chapter of the Association of Graduates, quite possibly our youngest graduate to do so. He is second-generation Air Force following his father, a graduate from the Class of '85, and uncle, Class of '87 from our Air Force Academy, the only school that he applied to after high school. We'll talk about those things, Jake's leadership journey and a particular crossroad he arrived at when he had one hour to decide his entire life. Jake, welcome to Long Blue Leadership, and I'd like to dive right in: One hour to decide your entire life. What's that about? Jake DeRuyter 01:22 Yeah, so my second semester, first year, I was dealing with some pretty significant back issues, and didn't realize how just how severe it was. So I'm in the flight dock. It was either the Monday the week before or the week of graduation, and the doctor's like, “Hey, you're gonna need back surgery to remove the bulging disc in your back.” I'm like, “OK, great. I can barely walk, so sign me up. Whatever you can do make me feel better.” And they're like, “Well, you're not gonna be able to keep your pilot slot if you proceed with the surgery.” And I'm not gonna lie and say it was my end all dream to be a pilot, but you go through all four years thinking you're gonna fly, you're pretty fired up for it, we're a week away from graduation, and then it's like, hey, the rug is just pulled. But I had to make a decision right there where it's like, “Hey, I'd rather be able to walk and be pain free than fly.” And so that was a pretty easy decision at that point. And then the next part is, what you alluded to, is where things got a little tricky. So being just a couple days before walking across the stage and saluting the secretary of the Air Force, I'm like, “So what's my job going to be?” I don't even know what else is available in the Air Force. I didn't have to focus on this.” And they're like, “Well, I'm just the flight doc. Go talk to the personnel office over in Vandy, and they'll get you taken care of.” So, I walk — or hobble — on over there, And I'm like, “Hey, Jake DeRuyter, I told the flight doc to give y'all a call, you know, to get me a new job. What's my life look like? What are we doing next?” And she just goes, “Well, there was a big missileer crisis, and we're really desperate for missileers. So, you're gonna be missiles now.” And I'm just, like — my jaw dropped. Naviere Walkewicz Not what you expected to hear. Jake DeRuyter Not what I wanted and like, not to downplay missiles, just not what I wanted to join the Air Force to do, right? That's... I'm just like, standing there in shock. And she's like, “Are you OK?” And I'm like, “I kind of want to jump off my room on top of Vandy, but you know, it's gonna be fine. Do I get some preferences? Do I have any say in this?” Just assigning that to kind of seems aggressive. She goes, “Well, I guess I can take your preferences down.” And I'm just like, “Why didn't you lead with that? That would have been great.” And so she's like, “Well, I need to submit these right now. So, what do you want to do?” I'm like, “Well, what are my options? I don't even know what other AFSC's there are.” So, that becomes a very frantic hour of me calling all my teachers. I was a management major — I highly recommend that. One of the best decisions of my life was going through the management department. And I call my teachers and they're like, “Hey, stick with something business related, like contracting, acquisitions, finance. If you put one of those three down, you're guaranteed to do it.” I'm like, “OK, sweet. Sounds like it sure bets on me. Like, that, sounds easy enough.” but they made you put down five. And, you know, you always hear the horror stories where if you don't put down something, it defaults to the needs of the Air Force, right? So I think I put down like PA, just because I was like, “There's no way they'll pick me for that. There's barely any PA officers.” And I, for the life of me, couldn't tell you what I put in the fifth spot. And so, I walk out of there kind of dejected. I'm like, “Man, my whole life just changed in the span of an hour. No idea what the next— I don't know where I'm gonna be living. I don't know what my job's gonna be like. What in the world's going on?” So, the next day we're all sitting in one of those final briefings, you know, “Hey, here's how you PCS. Here's how you do XYZ.” Right? As the meeting's about to kick off, that same tech sergeant — God, I'd give her a big hug now — she walks up to me with some paperwork and says, “Congratulations, sir.” And I'm looking at her like the person just told me my life was over the day before, so I'm not exactly happy to see this person. And then I look at the paper, and it just says, “Goodfellow Air Force Base.” I had no idea where in the world that was, what job that was or anything. I just knew it wasn't Vandenberg for missileer training. So I just look at her and go, “I'm not missiles?” She's like, “You're not missiles.” I stand up, give her a big old hug. You know, they're trying to start a briefing. They're like, “Sir, please sit down for...” “Sorry, I'm too happy right now.” So yeah, that started me off on my journey to San Angelo, Texas, which I didn't really know what I was getting into there, but, yeah, going intel kind of led me to where I am now in life. And looking back on it now, all the crazy things that happened, it put me where I am now, and so, I'm very thankful for the things and how they all ended up and put me in a position where I can give back to the community now and really serve the Air Force and fellow grads in a much better capacity than I ever could have while on active duty. Naviere Walkewicz 05:30 Well, it's so interesting because, you know, you think about the Air Force Academy as a place where they teach you to be able to make decisions on the fly, or to make the best calculated decision you can at the time.What leadership lessons do you think you called upon in that frantic moment of well, not only can you not be a pilot now because we're going to have this surgery, but now you have to pick an AFSC. What do you think you drew upon to guide you through that in a kind of a leadership manner? Jake DeRuyter 06:02 Yeah, the biggest thing was just staying calm and realizing, OK, whatever happens, happens, I can't change the past. I can only deal with the information given, and push forward. I could sit there and get upset with myself or upset at the world, but that doesn't do anything. It's like, “All right, how do we take action?? How we take that next step to get over this?” Because you want to be in control of your life as much as possible, going forward, right? And choosing your AFSC, arguably, is probably one of the biggest things you could possibly choose in life, next to your spouse and things like that. And that determines, however, what your entire Air Force career is going to be. So yeah, doing that in the hour was definitely very frantic. But, one of the biggest things I really pride myself on, and really want to encourage others is the connections you make throughout your Academy experience, through active duty, in your life — those are the people that are going to help you in those dark times, those tough times. And lean on those people. And the only way you can lean on them is if you prove to them that they can lean on you when they need help, right? As that's one of the things I make a pillar in my life is, when those friends are in a dark time, I want to be the one that, “Hey, I'll be there for you.” That's always one thing I'm passionate about, and what I centered my leadership philosophy around. Naviere Walkewicz 07:15 I love that. I think you just kind of hit on it, right? You have this network, and I imagine your family is part of that — your dad being a graduate. What role did he play in this moment in your life, and how did you navigate that with him? Jake DeRuyter 07:30 Yeah, he was awesome, and he was a big reason why I went to the Academy. He always did a really good job of putting that as an option but not forcing it or not shoving it down my throat. And I was really thankful to him for the life me and my sister had growing up, and all the crazy places we moved to and everything. And I didn't really know what I wanted to do, as you hinted in the preview. I didn't apply anywhere else because I didn't really know what I wanted to do when I grew up. And he was like, “Hey, the Academy was always a great place, and worst case, they tell you what to do.” And he's like, “Hey, if you want a similar life to where you grew up, I attribute everything to that, and that's kind of what led me there.” So yeah, you better believe after calling my teachers to figure out what AFSC I should do, he was my next call to be like, “Hey, I knew you always wanted me to fly, but that's not working anymore. So what do you think?” So, he's been a tremendous help my entire life. I mean, I talk to him at least every week. So, yeah, huge help there. Naviere Walkewicz 08:27 That's amazing. So you went on to be an intel officer, and what was that like? And then how did you decide that it was going to be time to move on to transitioning out of the military. Jake DeRuyter 08:42 Yeah, so intel wasn't exactly a great fit for me, and what I was like trying to do. You know, when you're told your intel, I imagine— I knew nothing. So I'm like, “Oh, I'll be a spy. I'll be James Bond. I'll be the CIA. None of those were remotely true. So, I got stationed in San Antonio, Texas, for my first job, which was great. I love San Antonio. I worked with some amazing people. Our mission was a little funky. We were doing defensive cyber ops as it was kind of standing up. So, doing intel support for a mission that doesn't really know what they're doing is a little difficult at the time. Now, knock on wood, hopefully things have gotten a lot better since I was there, but building the plane as you're flying was our moniker that we would use. And so it was definitely challenging. And then a lot of it just felt like doing homework and giving briefings over and over again. So, you have a lot of hours in the SCIF doing researching on different cyber threats and then going and briefing the commanders. It was a cool job; I learned a ton. But it wasn't very fulfilling for me. I wanted to get out, be more helpful to other people and have more of a direct impact. And so that led me to teaching ROTC at Texas State, which was a great three years, and really kind of re-blued me. I loved that job. Can't recommend it enough for people that are looking to take a break from their career field. But then when they said, “Hey, you got to go back to intel,” that was my big decision, or my the point where I was like, “All right, I don't think an active-duty career is left in the cards for me. I'm gonna take my next step, moving on.” Naviere Walkewicz 10:09 So, you even talked about before you decided to transition out of the Air Force, you had pivoted within your career field and took a temporary job outside of your career field as an ROTC instructor, and you said it re-blued. You talk about that and how did it grow you as a leader? I mean, what did you learn about yourself in that? Jake DeRuyter 10:29 I learned that I really cared about the people more than the operational mission, and so, building up the people, building out the future lieutenants. Like, “Hey, that's how I can better serve the Air Force.” And the whole reason I got the job was because they had to give a waiver for me, because I was technically still a lieutenant, which was not allowed. But I was really upfront with my leadership and my intel job, and they knew I didn't love the career field and I wasn't really a good fit for that world. But they're like, “Hey, Jake's out, great at recruiting. He's good at getting people to go out and do things and help others. He'd be a natural fit there.” So they called all the ROTC leadership to vouch for me to get that job. And then one of the biggest things I took away is that when you go to the Academy, if you're in the Academy, you're in. You have a spot in the Air Force, assuming you pass all your classes, you don't get kicked out for X, Y, Z reasons, and then you'll have a job. ROTC is completely different. You could have 4.0, max your PT scores, be the perfect cadet. And then the Air Force decides, “Hey, we're only taking 40% this year,” which happened my second year in the job and we just had to lose half of our class. So, learning to deal with that rejection when there's nothing that you personally could have done was really challenging. And we had a ton of mentorship sessions with the cadets. “Hey, what are second, tertiary options?” Things like that. Kind of like what I did where it's like, “You're going to be— the doors will get slammed in your face over and over again in life. How do you respond to that, that resiliency and then that flexibility to adapt and overcome?” I mean, those are stuff I'll take with me for the rest of my life. Naviere Walkewicz 12:01 Wow. And so you got to be a mentor in a way for those Air Force ROTC cadets, if they didn't get a slot, and kind of navigating. And then you found yourself in that seat when you decided to transition yourself, right? Jake DeRuyter 12:14 Yeah. So, they were gonna send me to another intel role, and I had just met my wife at the time. We were gonna get married soon. I'm like, “Man, the time to deploy and kind of live the Air Force life isn't my main goal anymore, and so I tried to push out my separation date as long as possible, so I had time to do the job search and really see what else is out there. And I didn't really know what I wanted to be once again. But I was like, “Hey, I love living here in Austin, Texas. I figure I can get something tech related or sales related,” I'm kind of naturally inclined to both of those things. And one of my classmates, Keith Link, he reached out to me because I host a big March Madness pool every year for a ton of grads. And he's like, “Hey, man, just started this role here. I think you'd be a great fit for the company. We're trying to build out our Air Force team. Our boss is a Navy grad. Would you be interested in interviewing us?” And then I was like, “Yeah, man, that sounds great.” You know, I'd still be working with the Air Force in a tech- slash sales-type role. I'm like, “Yeah, this is everything that I wanted. Sounds awesome…” having, once again, no idea I was getting into. But I go through the interview process and I'm trying to sell myself on SkillBridge, trying to get that free internship saying, “Hey, I could be a free worker for y'all for a couple of months here.” I'm trying to sell myself. And at the end of the interview process, John Podolak, '88 Navy grad, I believe. He's like, “Jake, you've had a bunch of people vouch for you. I really believe in the grad network; it doesn't matter which Academy you went to.” He said, “Hey, if you're gonna come and do SkillBridge with us, I want you to know you have a job offer at the end of it.” And he handed me my job offer right there. I think we were four months out, so I was in shock. To this day I can't believe it. He took the risk on me that coming fresh in a completely separate career field, no background besides being able to speak Air Force. And it all goes back to our Long Blue Line. I don't know what Navy calls it, but it's a “Hey, we all have similar backgrounds.” Naviere Walkewicz 14:17 Long Blue Navy Line, maybe? I'm not sure. Jake DeRuyter 14:21 Yeah. He's like, “Hey, I know I could put trust in you because of your background, what you're all about.” and that's something that I really internalized and leading to my role now. It's like, “Hey, we'll give you the benefit of the doubt if you're a fellow grad,” right? Doesn't matter which Academy, you know? In particular, we're gonna favor the Air Force. But yeah, that's like, one thing I just really want to make a pillar of my life. Like I said earlier, it's like, hey, I want to help out fellow grads. Because if it wasn't for Keith and John taking a risk on me out of the blue, I wouldn't be where I am today. Naviere Walkewicz 14:53 It seems like that's been a thread in your life. You know, finding a network and supporting and taking care of people, and then seeing that reciprocated to help continue to fuel what is important to you. Talk a little bit about what that transition was like, though, because it almost sounds too easy. I mean, has it been just rainbows since you kind of took that leap. Jake DeRuyter 15:17 Oh, God, no. Year 1, any career field, especially, you know, a sales driven one, it's a challenge. You don't know what you're doing. You're fish out of water. I was going to a million different Air Force bases, walking on base, trying to meet people, not even knowing what I was doing, let alone convincing other people what we do. And so that was a challenge. I think I went to 19 different bases my first year; I was on a plane every chance I could get, just trying to make a name for myself and say, “Hey, I'm Jake DeRuyter, we can do anything help you. What do you need?” And people were always like, “Well, we don't need anything. Like, we want one specific thing. Can you do this?” And so you really kind of have to find yourself, because the Air Force, especially as an officer, you're leading a team, right? Or you're part of some overarching team. But in this role, when I started, it was me, myself and I. So that was just a huge lifestyle change. It was a little refreshing. That's like, “Hey, I don't have to worry about my cadets or my airmen outside of the job.” And this was a nice refresh. But like everything else, it's like, “Hey, I am the only one providing for my family, to pay the bills,” everything like that. Like, how hard am I going to work? And how am I going to put in the effort to grind day in and day out. Just getting good at any job, you can't just have one great day, just like working out. You can't just have one great day and expect to bench 500 pounds, right? It's the things that you do day in and day out and building up the right habits and having the right communication with people, and then just being relatable. One of the other biggest things: Say you're gonna do something and follow up and do it. We always joke that it's a weird that it's a skill to follow up with people and respond to them in a meaningful time. It shouldn't be, but that's just one of those things where people need help. We want to be the ones that are there. And it's just doing that over and over again. Because, man, that Year 1 was like, “Why did I pick this job? Why did I pick this career choice? I should have gone into consulting. I should have gotten started in literally anything else.” Thank God I stuck with it. It's, again, been one of the greatest decisions I've made, and we have an awesome team, but we've brought in a few other Academy grads with us as well, and it's been a lot of fun since. Naviere Walkewicz 17:31 May I ask why you stuck with it when it and everything against in your core was, “Why did I do this? I could have picked anything else?” Why did you stay? Jake DeRuyter 17:41 I really wanted to prove it to myself and really prove it to Keith and John. You know, they took the risk on me, so I didn't want to let them down. And I think that was the biggest thing, where it's like, “Hey, you guys took the risk on me out of the blue.” And I'm like— you know, Keith and I were classmates, you know, we were never close, right? Like, you know, we barely kept in touch over the years. And it's just like, “Hey, you stuck your name out.” Like, this is the real world, right? In the Air Force, if you want to do the full 20 years you can do 20 years, right? In the real world, it's “Hey, if you're not have a nice day.” You gotta find new employment. And so I was like, “I'm not gonna let you guys down. I'm gonna fight for this.” Being a small company, we're not a big name brand, right? No one knows who we are. So, it's a little bit that underdog mentality, and just like, “Hey, how am I gonna outhustle the next guy? How am I gonna outhustle XYZ company that's a competitor?” And it's just that competitive drive that I've just always had. I'm not playing sports every day anymore, but how do you still stay competitive and still stay active and still have that drive to be the best you can be, and go on and go forth? Naviere Walkewicz 18:52 Well, it sounds like this competitive drive is something you said, it was something you've always had. Can you share a story from when you recall, when, gosh, even something, you know, back in early-Jake days that this is a moment I realized, “I'm a competitive person. I'm driven by this desire to prove myself.” Is there something that pops to mind? Because I can only just imagine if it was already part of your core when you kind of knew this about yourself? Jake DeRuyter 19:18 Oh, yeah, I've got a good one. So, my dad was coaching with the Academy going into my junior year of high school, and his goal was always to get me all three years at one school, which we had at the time, we had never lived anywhere longer than three years in a row. So, that was a tough task. And I just finished up my junior year of playing football, and things were going good, and then he gets a job offer down in Texas, and he comes to me. He's like, “Hey, what do you think? I don't want to move you going into your senior year, but I want to talk to you first before, yeah, I make any decisions.” And I'm like, “Wait, I get the chance to play Texas high school football. Are you kidding me? Let's do this. I get one year for it. That's awesome.” So, yeah, that's the No. 1 story that comes to my mind where it's like, “Hey, I want to take the risk on myself and be competitive and go play the best of the best.” Naviere Walkewicz 20:18 Play with the best of the best. And that does seem to be a theme, right? Air Force Academy, putting yourself out there, jumping in full feet into this new role. You know, what have you learned about yourself? You talked about motivating. It's different when you have people that you have to take care of, and I guess maybe your translation is your family you have to take care of. But how do you motivate yourself when it's a you, yourself and you — you said “me, myself, and I” and I couldn't think of the other way to say it. But when it's just you, what keeps you motivated? Jake DeRuyter 20:52 Yeah, I'm definitely very externally motivated. So it's my team. When you want to talk about the Monday-through-Friday grind, and then my wife and, the overarching family, growing up, family has always been really close and a huge motivator for me. And, you know, I've just always wanted to be able to provide for others and provide for myself, and you never want to have to worry about that next meal, or the job, employment — things like that. And just saying, “Hey, you know, these opportunities you get there — don't take it for granted.” And it's like you've got to fight and earn everything. You're not just going to be handed out anything. And that's just something always back in my mind, where it's like, if I'm not doing it like somebody else is going to, I'm going to lose that opportunity, or someone's going to step in, right? And so it's just one thing where it's just being like the Academy grad, like you don't, we'll move up to the name brand. That's another huge thing I always have in my head. It's like, I want to represent the brand. Well, I'm like, “How do you do that?” Is because, like, we've all met those people. It's like, hey man, like, you know, like, shoot. Like, “I really like you, but like, I don't think you represent us. Well, I never want to be that type of person, right? And so that's one of those things I just really like the kitchen, going day in and day out. Naviere Walkewicz 22:01 So the daily grind… You said, in the first year you think you visited like 19 bases just to try and figure it out. What does the daily grind look like now? Jake DeRuyter 22:10 Completely changed, thankfully, I really only focus on three, which still has me plenty busy, but at least I'm not in all these crazy places, which is nice. Now it's weird because I set my own schedule. No one's ever asking, “Hey, you got to be here at 7:30 and clock out at 4:30.” It's a complete polar oppositie of the Air Force. Like, if I want to go golf every Friday at noon, no one's stopping me from doing that, except for, that'd probably be a detriment to my team and our success, right? And so it's this complete mindset change where it's like, “Hey, I'm going to still put in a full day's work and get everything I can out of the day.” But I'm not sitting down at my desk. So when I'm home, I'm following up with teams making sure everything is good internally at the company, and then a lot of the time I'm on the road. So, I go to Eglin Air Force Base a lot, Hill Air Force Base and Edwards. Those are my three where I'm constantly rotating through. So, if anyone's at those bases, please let me know. Love to reach out to you guys, grab a beer, dinner or anything. You know, it's a lot of lonely nights in the hotel. So, every chance I get to meet up with fellow grads, see what else is going on — I love taking advantage of that opportunity. I've done that numerous times, and that's one of my favorite things and one of my favorite parts of the job. So, I don't know what a standard day looks like for me. That's one thing I love about this job. And kind of why I stuck with it, so I'm never bored. No day is the same. You're always finding a new opportunity, someone new to talk to, some new base, a new program, that there's infinite possibilities. It's such a big Air Force and it gives me a chance to stay involved with our community, give back, and just, hey, if there's another grad out there that's looking to separate and needs a job, any grad — I've offered this plenty of times and stepped through it — any grad that's trying to separate, you have an instant interview at a minimum, with us right away. Please reach out anytime. Naviere Walkewicz 24:03 That's amazing. I think you know you talk about there is no standard, but maybe you actually... the standard is that you hold yourself to a standard so that you're seeking opportunities when they're there, you're prepared, and you're trying to connect with other grads and make ways for them as well, or at least a potential opportunity. Let's talk about that, because I find— you know, you're a 2015 graduate, you're in your career trajectory, and you've made time to become the chapter president for the Central Texas chapter. And, you know, chapter services, that's when you bring grads together. I don't know how you manage that, as well as build a business. Let's talk about that. How did that even happen? Jake DeRuyter 24:43 Yeah, so Mike Lambert started our chapter. He's a '70 grad, one of the coolest, most informative, just unique individuals. He is the greatest guy. Now, I wish I could live half the life that he has when I get to be his age. I reached out to him a couple years ago now saying, “Hey, the baseball team's in town playing UT, we have plans to all go to it, like, what's going on? Because I, this is bad on me... I didn't know that the chapter existed at the time. And he's like, “Oh shoot. I didn't know about it. Yeah, that sounds great. I'll send out a message, let's start rallying people to go as a big group.” I think we got maybe 20 to 30 people. It's a decent showing. And then after he's like, “Hey, I'm looking to pass this on to somebody. Would you be interested in it?” And I'm like, “Yeah, of course. I don't really know what it entails.” And then without me kind of having a say in it, everyone there is like, “Oh, hey, let's all have a vote right now. Raise your hand if you want Jake s the next president,” and Neil Wendt, Harry Keyes, a bunch of other grads were there all raising hands, like, “Hey, here's our new president.” So, yeah, I mean, I definitely wanted it, not like I didn't have a say in it, but yeah, it was nice having that little motivational push from everybody else. And then Neil Wendt, he's been my VP, and almost had a year going just now, so we still got a lot of work to do. We're still building a lot of things, but we're pretty proud of the steps that we've taken to kind of build this community. But yeah, it's definitely tough. You got work and then home life, and then family, and then you're just like, “Oh shoot, I still got to do this.” So, I mean, we all got a million things on a plate, so just like the Academy teaches you, how do you put 25 hours into a 24-hour day? Naviere Walkewicz 26:18 Right? So I found that curious, what you'd mentioned. You said, “I didn't even know we had a chapter,” but you reached out to Mike Lambert. So did you already have a mentor-mentee relationship with him, or how did you know him? Jake DeRuyter 26:29 No, I heard about it a little bit before that, because I kind of, in the back of my head, knew it existed. I just didn't know what all entailed. And it didn't say Austin. It just said to Central Texas. So, I didn't really know what all it meant. And then meeting with him and getting involved with him, and all in the whole group that he's started and been a part of for a long time. Yeah, it's really cool hearing their stories. And we do a monthly lunch every Friday or every first Friday of the month, and we get to hear all the cool war stories and everything. It's honestly one of the things I look forward to most every month is listening in to those guys. There's just so many funny connections all over the place. And, yeah, it's awesome. If anyone's listening in Austin, we'll be doing it again next week, or the first Friday this upcoming month of April. Naviere Walkewicz 27:13 That's wonderful. So talk a little bit about what it's been like being the chapter president. You know, I think when we think about times at the Academy, you're leading a group of your peers, and obviously these peers are various years. But what has that been like, and what have you seen to be challenging so far? Jake DeRuyter 27:29 Yeah, so it's completely different than on active duty, because you have positional power, right? And your airmen, the younger officers, they've got to listen to you, right? The chapter president sounds cool. Like, what authority do I have? Right? Absolutely nothing. It's just more of I'm the one coordinating and leading the charge, right? So you got to be the one to say what you're going to do and actually follow through and do it. And that's tough when you've got a million other competing priorities, and you're always trying to schedule your time and so I've been thankful I've had a great team. There's been times I can't make that monthly lunch and your others fill in. So we've had a pretty good core group there. But trying to find ways to motivate people to participate is extremely difficult unless they have like a direct buy in or impact or return on their investment. I think I saw in our last AOG election, we had like a 22% voting rate. And so we see that at the local chapters too, where it's tough finding people, so I'll go on LinkedIn, just trolling, just looking for anyone that says Air Force Academy grad, outside of any major city in Texas besides Austin. So, trying to get that direct touch. But it definitely takes time and effort and you've got to be willing to show that you're willing to go forth and put it in. Otherwise everyone's gonna be like, “Hey, I'm just getting another spam email. Why would I listen to this?” Naviere Walkewicz 28:43 Right? And I just find it even more just impressive. What compelled you to reach out in the first place and say, “Hey, I'd like to get more involved?” Because you were already doing all these things through your job. So why the additional responsibility? Jake DeRuyter 29:00 I think that's a great question. I think it's just because… You said: I was already doing it, and so I was like, “Hey, this is a natural fit for what I enjoy doing and what I could truly care about.” And as we've mentioned, all those grads in the past have helped me out and made me who I am today. You know from my dad and my teachers, the officers that are ahead of me. It's like, “Hey, how do I give back?” Because I know I wouldn't be standing where I am without our fellow grads and then the whole overarching community. So it's like, “What little can I do to make one person's life that 1% better?” I'll take that chance any day of the week. Naviere Walkewicz 29:33 Well, we talked about some of the challenges you've experienced and your deep desire to give back. So, share a success that you've had since being chapter president, and what's really kind of filled your bucket in this giving back piece. Jake DeRuyter 29:44 Oh, so we did a watch party for the Air Force/Army game; that's pretty standard chapter president stuff like, “Oh, hey, you threw a watch party.” That's not the big thing. But the really cool part was the people that showed up. And I feel horrible. I forget his name right now, but the oldest living graduate, he had his daughter drive him because, “Hey, I'm not going to miss this.” And so I was like, whoa. Like, that was like... Naviere Walkewicz 30:13 I'm going to look that up myself. That's amazing. Jake DeRuyter 30:16 Having that moment like, “Wow, that's really cool.” Where it's like, “Hey, that wouldn't have happened without the work of my team putting this together. And, yeah, putting together watch parties is nothing crazy. But it's still— hearing those stories and meeting those people that were there when this first started. Like, we were joking earlier: They don't even know what Founders Day is because they were there for it. That wasn't really a thing for them. Now it's like our annual celebration, but to them it's just like, “Oh yeah. We just started it.” Like, that's just how... Naviere Walkewicz 30:48 ...on the shoulders of giants, right? Jake DeRuyter Yes. Naviere Walkewicz Jake, it just sounds like you had such an incredible ride so far. And I know you're you know your journey is in the midst of it, and I can't wait to hear how you'll continue to do so as a graduate, as we support you. But right now, I'd like to ask you some specific leadership lessons, the first one really pertaining to you: What do you do every day to be a better leader? Jake DeRuyter 31:12 That reach out. Like, always that checking in. I don't necesarilly schedule it, but if I ever have 20 or 30, minutes, nothing's on my calendar for work, or things are slow, it's like, “Hey, who haven't I talked to in a while?” Whether it's one of my classmates, one of my freshmen, one of the people that served with me… And then I spend a lot of time on the road, so, I'm driving. I always try to reach out and call and reconnect with people that you haven't talked to in X amount of months. Because I always know that I really appreciate when I always hear from people like that. And so that's like one thing I always want to do is like, “Hey, what's going on in life? Where are you at now?” That's what's so cool about the Air Force community as a whole: People are moving, doing cool new jobs all over the place. So, I love getting to hear those stories and truly listening in. The leadership question: Actually listen. Take interest and don't just be waiting to say what you want to say next. Like, actually, like, “Oh, hey, there's some pretty cool stories out there. And people are doing some amazing, unique things.” Shoot, look at Wyatt Hendrickson this weekend. One of the greatest college sports upsets of all time. Naviere Walkewicz 32:19 Of all time — 100%. I think that's a really great way— just even like rallying together and talking about that. I mean, what a great way to… “Hey, I haven't talked to you in a while. Did you see Wyatt? What he did? You know, it's just amazing. Jake DeRuyter 32:32 Yep, exactly. Wyatt, if you're ever in Austin, drinks are on me, man, congrats. Naviere Walkewicz 32:38 That's outstanding. All right, so tell me, then, Jake, what would you share as something that an aspiring leader can do every day? So, that's something you do personally. What might you share with an aspiring leader that they can do today that will reap benefits down the road? Jake DeRuyter 32:53 Yeah, don't just worry about your own career and your own life, because whether you look at officers, coaches— a lot of people can be judged based on the people that they've built up rather than their own career. We see that all the time in coaching, and it's like, if you're truly worried about the development of the guys around you, you're going to build up yourself and your whole team and everybody and so make that the primary goal. Not just, “Hey, how do I get that next job? How do I get that next rank?” Because people are going to spot that as being phony really quick. So, be genuine, and pump up the other ones around you. Because a rising tide lifts all ships. Naviere Walkewicz 33:27 Gosh. And like I said, you're kind of in this rise in your career and in your life. You know, if you were to look back and talk to your younger self, Jake, whether your cadet self or even your child self, is there any advice you would give yourself, knowing what you know today? Jake DeRuyter 33:44 Yeah, the biggest thing is be more involved. I think especially as a cadet and in early officer life, I was just like, “How do I get through the day? What do I do to get through class, or to get through the SCIF life?” Or something like that. “How do I get to the part of life where I'm spending time with my friends, or having fun?” I definitely wish I was much more involved at the Academy and as a young lieutenant, like, I definitely took things for granted back then, and that's probably the biggest thing I changed, is like, “Hey, I definitely had the extra time.” I could have given back more at that time, and maybe I'm trying to make up for a little bit for that now. Naviere Walkewicz 34:19 Well, I think it's never too late to start. And what are you doing now that fills your bucket in that way? Jake DeRuyter 34:25 Oh, yeah, the biggest things, the AOG chapter presidency and helping other grads transition. I can't tell you how many fellow grads I've talked to as they're looking for SkillBridge, trying to figure out what that next step looks like. It doesn't stop. Everyone's hitting their five years coming up. It happens every year, right? So there's always that influx, especially those that aren't flying. It's tough making that jump. You know, it's a scary world out there. And I said, it's just you, yourself and I. Whatever the opposite of that is. It's like, “Hey, I know I didn't feel like I had the resources when I was initially getting out through traditional means of the Air Force.” So I want to be that person that's like, “Hey, I'll offer that olive branch anytime.” So yeah, love to help out wherever I can. Naviere Walkewicz 35:13 Well, those connections are so important, and I think one of the things I really appreciate about you, Jake, is really recognizing that connection. I think you even shared with me a story, and maybe you can share it here, about how you still are in touch with your sponsor family? Jake DeRuyter 35:26 Yeah. I went to high school in the Springs for a little bit, and the best man in my wedding, his family was the one that sponsored me. So, they had sponsored cadets for years, sponsoring the basketball team through the 2000s. Then in high school, he made me a bet. He's like, “Hey, you idiot, if there's any way that you get in, I'll sponsor.” He's like, “I'm done sponsoring cadets, but if you make it in, you'll be my last one.” Naviere Walkewicz And so you were the exception for him. Jake DeRuyter Yeah, I was the exception to the rule. So yeah, we still get together every year to go to the opening round of March Madness. So we just did Lexington, Kentucky, for those games, and then next year we'll be doing Tampa. So yeah, college sports and that competition that you talked about that's a huge center piece of my life, and I center all my travel and my fun around it. So yeah, they've been awesome, and a huge part of why I am or where I am today as well. Naviere Walkewicz 36:11 I love that. Well, we're going to ask for Jake's final thoughts next, but before we do, I'd like to take a moment and thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. The podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio and is available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Be sure to stay in touch. Watch, subscribe and listen to all episodes of Long Blue Leadership at longblueleadership.org. All right, Jake, we're ready to hear your final thoughts. It's been incredible spending time with you today. Jake DeRuyter 36:39 I appreciate it Naviere. Very humbled to be here. You just had Secretary Wilson. I'm sure you've had some astronauts and generals on here, so the fact that you picked me: I was just like, “Man, that really means a lot.” So I just want to say thank you. Yeah, I don't want to repeat myself too much, but yeah, any fellow grads, if you're ever in the Austin area, love to meet up, grab a beer, whatever we can do to help each other out. Just whatever we can do to give back to the Long Blue Line. Naviere Walkewicz 37:03 Well, thank you for never being too busy for our graduates. I think that was one of the things that really stood out to me throughout everything you've shared, is you know, you care about people, and it's really translated to how you care about our fellow graduates, and I can't wait to see all the amazing things you'll continue to do. So thanks for being a leader in our Long Blue Line. Jake DeRuyter 37:22 Yeah, I appreciate that, Naviere. Thank you so much. Naviere Walkewicz 37:25 Well, Jake, one more time, thank you again, and I'm Naviere Walkewicz, thank you for joining us on Long Blue Leadership until next time. KEWORDS Resilience, Adaptability, Mentorship, Network, Long Blue Line, Leadership, Development, Career Transition, Service, Community Support, Grit, Connections, Risk-Taking, Personal Growth, Military to Civilian Transition, Air Force Academy, Leadership Philosophy, Professional Networking, Continuous Learning, Relationship Building, Giving Back The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Christian Evans shares his journey from a jovial cadet to a dedicated leader focused on uplifting others. SUMMARY Christian reflects on transformative experiences during his time at the Air Force Academy, the importance of mentorship, and the impact of community engagement. Christian discusses navigating career transitions, the power of giving back, and the significance of leading with love. He emphasizes resilience, personal growth, and the need to engage the next generation of leaders. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK TAKEAWAYS Christian emphasizes the importance of humor in leadership. Transformative experiences can lead to personal growth and leadership development. Mentorship plays a crucial role in guiding younger generations. Navigating career transitions requires building a supportive network. Giving back to the community enhances personal fulfillment. Engaging the next generation is vital for sustaining leadership values. Resilience is key to overcoming failures and learning from them. Leading with love fosters a supportive environment. Personal growth is a continuous journey influenced by experiences. Finding avenues to contribute to the community is essential for leadership. EPISODE CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to Leadership Journeys 02:56 Transformative Experiences in Cadet Life 06:10 The Impact of Mentorship and Community 08:52 Navigating Career Transitions 11:49 The Power of Giving Back 14:50 Engaging the Next Generation 17:55 Lessons in Resilience and Growth 21:00 Leading with Love 23:55 Reflections on Personal Growth 26:59 Conclusion and Future Aspirations ABOUT CHRISTIAN EVANS BIO Christian Evans is a Business Development Executive at Olsson where he leads sales and growth efforts in Texas and Colorado. Christian previously worked as Managing Partner of Greenwood Capital lower middle market PE firm, Wealth Advisor at Morgan Stanley, Capital Markets Sales Manager at Highland Capital Management. Prior to joining Highland, he worked as an associate on the Banking, Investing, and Lending team at Goldman Sachs. Christian started his professional career in the United States Air Force as a space operations officer at Cape Cod AFS, MA and an acquisitions program manager at the Space and Missile Systems Center at Los Angeles AFB, CA. Christian is an active leader in the Dallas community sitting on the Visiting Nurses Association of Texas Board of Directors on the finance and development committees and on the Friends Barack Obama Male Leadership Academy on the Development committee. Christian is an active member of the Urban Land Institute and The Real Estate Council. Christian is a 2008 Graduate of the United States Air Force Academy where he majored in Management. As a Cadet, he competed on the Fighting Falcon football team, served as President of the Tuskegee Airmen Club, and became a member of Kappa Alpha Psi Incorporated. He completed his MBA at the SMU Cox School of Business in 2017. Christian is married to Dr. Candace Evans and they enjoy their time with their son, Cash. - Copy courtesy of the U.S. Air Force Academy Association of Graduates CONNECT WITH CHRISTIAN LINKEDIN | ASSOCIATION OF GRADUATES ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Guest: CHRISTIAN EVANS '08 | Host: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz 00:00 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership, the podcast where we share insights on leadership through the lives and experiences of Air Force Academy graduates. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. For Christian Evans, USAFA Class of 2008, the journey was arduous, and even now, though he's dedicated himself to a life of lifting others up, he still thinks of himself as a work in progress, becoming the model for grace, giving back and leadership that he is today. Christian, thanks for being here today. Christian Evans 00:28 Thank you so much for having me. Truly honored and flattered to be here. Naviere Walkewicz 00:34 What were you like growing up? — I guess maybe is the first question. Christian Evans 00:38 I've always been a jovial person. I've always had a sense of humor, and I've always kind of been a strategic thinker, if that makes sense. So, while I was somewhat the life of the party to a certain extent, or someone on the team that would galvanize the teammates, it was mostly through humor or engaging outside of anything serious, because everything's so serious, right? Naviere Walkewicz Right. Christian Evans So, growing up and even at the Academy, I always kind of used humor as a way to put myself out there, so to speak, right? To kind of get people's moods to calm down. Yeah, I just always was more focused on what I was doing, and never focused on “I should be leading in this space,” outside of just knowing if you do well in school, get good grades… All right, that's leadership by doing. “I'm in NHS, I'm in the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. I'm doing all these service things. And even though I'm not the president or vice president, I'm still active, serving a greater purpose.” So, yeah, growing up, I was a good kid, liked to have fun, maybe a little crass at times. Naviere Walkewicz 02:05 Your sophomore year, you know, your three-degree, you kind of had this decision point. What was it that helped you make that decision? Was there an incident? Was there a moment? Was it just a path you were on? Christian Evans 02:20 There was definitely an incident. At the end of our sophomore year, we did not have the season that we wanted as a football team, so the night of the game, after the game, I was still underaged, and I drank alcohol and the Academy found out about it. And so, I had to go through that rehabilitation process, which wasn't fun. I think it was six months where you're restricted to the base. At that point, that's when I said, “OK, this isn't a civilian school. You've kind of got to button it up here if you want to stay and actually get something out of it.” So that next year, I made a point during summer school, and even that summer as a cadre for basic, to just really apply myself and try to see, “All right, if I actually apply myself and lead and maybe not make everything a joke, will you see real outcomes?” And I think that's where my first experience of really being able to affect younger cadets and/or younger grads and their experience with the Academy. Because as a basic cadet cadre, I really went out of my way to try to look out for our basics in a way that typically doesn't happen during basic training. And it is what it is, right? Basic training is not summer camp, so it's got to be tough, it's got to be hard. But I definitely — and I think if you ask my basics — I definitely went into the situation with the idea of making it hard, but fair, but also making it enjoyable and something that's worth remembering. And so experiencing that as a cadet and really seeing, “OK, yeah, you're pretty good at this thing, you can motivate people, and you can make them feel good about themselves, and you could help them when they need it, and not make it hard for them to get where they need to go, kind of thing, and really enable them.” That was a great experience for me, and kind of carried into the next year. I got on group staff; I learned that the more that you lean in, there are actual outcomes that come out of it, and you're able to have a positive impact on other people, which, to me, gives me — that's where I get energy, and I feel good about myself. Outside of how I feel about myself is how I can help other people to accomplish whatever it is they kind of want to do. Naviere Walkewicz 05:04 Wow, it sounds like you took an incident that happened to you all the way back in basic and you found a way to turn it around, to make sure that another basic didn't have to go through what you did. And you probably didn't even realize it at the time when you're going through that self-discovery as a leader and applying yourself, but can you think of a story of where that came into play? Like when you were a cadre for a basic, was there ever a time where you were able to make a difference for a basic that you weren't able to have made for you? Christian Evans 05:34 Absolutely. One of the things I did — and this is an easy one — was when there was someone that needed meal replacements for whatever reason, or was still hungry at the end of the day, I would help get food and sustenance to them, whether they played sports or not. Obviously doing it for the football guys so that they could maintain weight for when the season starts. But when other non-football people mentioned that they were still hungry, the food was making them upset, things like that. Yeah, I would get them what they needed, right? And I think for that, they felt like somebody cared. I will say, as a cadre, I think the best thing I could have done was just make it a memorable experience through the experiences, right? Like I said, I'm into humor. I like to have fun, and to me, basic training as a cadre was like being a stand-up comedian with the built-in audience, you know? So, I would do bits with the kids, not kids, but they were kids. I would do bits, you know? I would have fun, but within that, it would always be kind of a bigger picture. Naviere Walkewicz 06:49 Well, I think that's fantastic sharing a bit of your personality, and I think that's also part of leadership, because when we think about what how people lead, it's usually from what they learn from others. So, being able to see that you can be human, and you can use humor, and you can still affect a mission, and especially — maybe people bring in their best self, because they didn't feel that they had to be so fearful, right? I don't know, maybe you touched them in that way. Christian Evans 07:17 I hope so. Because there was still a lot of fear, I imagine, left in the basic squadron. Naviere Walkewicz 07:24 Yes. Well, it led me to something you we talked about because you said you had indifference even your senior years. But there was a theme through that as well. You talked about being able to help others, so maybe talk through what you've learned about yourself as a leader in this space of helping others. Has there been a moment in your career now, whether through in the military, or when you transitioned out, where you saw that coming into play more? Christian Evans 07:49 It's something that I feel is evergreen, for me, is I'm always kind of thinking about, “How can I have an impact on the community around me?” Most recently, since transitioning from active duty into the private sector, I learned a lot. I didn't know much about the industry I was going into that being finance, I was blessed with an opportunity to do an internship with Goldman Sachs during my transition period, while I was still active duty. This was before they had the program they have now, the skill bridge program. I went into a very complex situation with very little information, and going through that process, I was able to reach out to a lot of people to help fill the gap. No. 1, most of the people that I found myself talking to and that had built networks within Goldman and other financial institutions were Navy and overwhelmingly Army grads. So, at that point, and I like that it says Long Blue Leadership, because the Long Blue Line is what we were all sold on coming here, whether you played sports or not, Just about anybody you asked that have made the transition from active duty into a new industry or career that requires a little bit of advocacy and understanding, and people doing some recruiting and all those things — how much it means to have somebody that you could call and learn things that you just don't know. My transition, learning the industry, learning the different steps that you need to take to get to different parts of the industry — I started just documenting resources, built out my network so the people that had helped me and kind of poured into me and mentored me, tried to stay in touch. That is something that I'm pretty good at, is just meeting people and turning a casual introduction into some type of meaningful relationship. And so, when I got a few years in and did my MBA, and kind of went through my process, I put together a one-pager, two-pager, and shared it with the number of younger grads at the time that I kind of adopted as mentees. They were just young grads, or young cadets, in some cases, that had an ambition and that wanted to do something that they didn't really know much about. Being able to give them that information to fill the void earlier in the process — maybe they've got a few years left in the Air Force. OK, they could start preparing themselves through certain things, getting involved in certain organizations. I thought if I could get this information to them earlier, well they could start preparing more for making that transition. And so, after doing that, and over the years, they made it their own thing, and now they have matriculated to some of the top business schools, law schools in America. And so, for me, that showed me the power of “when you learn, teach; when you get, give,” right? I heard that quote a number of years ago. That kind of was something that, after doing that and seeing the outcome, and especially now when I look back, that started maybe, let's say, eight years ago. Well now guys are starting their own funds, and they're working at multiple investment banks and consulting companies, and to me, that was more rewarding than even the accomplishments I had made in my transition. So, I feel very blessed to have been able to do that. But, you know, I definitely, over the time, have made it a mission of mine to ensure that I'm pulling the younger grads in the direction that they want to go, and doing it a little bit earlier in the cycle so that they could get better prepared. Naviere Walkewicz 12:25 This is really fascinating. What makes you care in this way? Christian Evans 12:29 At my first base was my first real interaction with the AOG and actual alumni. I got to meet real grads. One in particular was a gentleman, Al Fullerton. I think he was a 1963 grad, and he was medically discharged before he was able to serve. However, he was a grad, and he stayed connected to the organization. And my buddy, Evan Dadoski, who — he would get us to those AOG meetings, and when I and when I had those experiences and when I had the experience with Al, and he would give his time to me, Evan, Brian Campbell, Adam Hood, like go have lunch with us. Got to meet with Flash Wiley while I was up there, you know, Nate Dial went and got his master's while he was up there. And we would go have coffee and get to talk to him and interact with him. And I said, “Man, there is some richness to this,” but those were just really individual connection points. It wasn't like a critical mass, but it did pique my interest in saying, “Oh, there is a richness in a younger grad getting to know a more seasoned grad, or the intergenerational interactions that a lot of times we don't get for whatever reason.” Naviere Walkewicz 13:57 So, you started seeing and feeling the effects of the Long Blue Line? Christian Evans 14:01 Yeah, absolutely. It was really just the thought of trying to maximize the talent that God gave me, and in doing that, you can't be indifferent and be a great leader. You can't be indifferent and be the best that you can be. Naviere Walkewicz 14:19 Certainly, doesn't hurt to be kind of engaging with the vision for where our association's going and to your point, what does your impact look like within there? Christian Evans Sure. Naviere Walkewicz So, what has that look like, and how has that shaped you as a leader? Do you feel like those are one in the same, like you bring your leadership to it in the way that you are, or has it changed you this kind of service as a leader? Christian Evans 14:43 Yeah, if anything, I learned that if you do have a passion for how things should be, if you lean in, you galvanize the troops, so to speak, and/or try to find leadership opportunities within the multiple organizations that interact and do things for a cadet. And for grads, find those because it's been very beneficial to me as I have come onto the board and seeing, OK, something like the next generation. Naviere Walkewicz 15:12 So, can you talk a little bit more about this Next Gen group? Christian Evans 15:16 Yeah, absolutely. There are certain periods as graduates, where we have big decisions to make, and as an association, the more that we're engaged and helping you to solve for those decision problems, so to speak, the more you'll feel the value was served to you to engage. So, that kind of spurred a conversation with Nate Dial. And, you know, we always kind of have strategy sessions here and there about all kinds of stuff. But in this situation, it was, “Hey, how can we kind of solve for this young alumni or emerging leader alumni engagement?” Because the numbers speak for themselves — it's extremely low. If all grads are engaging at 10%, if you graduated after '95 it's less than 10%. So, Next Gen kind of was born out of that. And so, we started thinking about, “We've still got a lot of people engaged from our previous classes.” And so, I thought if we created some type of working group to start thinking about what can we do to provide this value proposition to that demographic of graduates that are historically disengaged? And engagement is not money, right? It's just showing up to alumni events or coming back to the Academy at any point or whatever, going to a game when the Academy is playing close to you, things of that nature. So that's where we got to the Next Gen. group. Naviere Walkewicz 16:54 I mean, I think a theme that's been woven through this with you has been, in your journey as a leader, really leaning in. You know, it seems like when you've had these moments of decisions, of applying yourself, you have these continuous wins that seem to have continued to fuel that desire to make further impact and others. Would you say that's accurate? Christian Evans 17:20 Absolutely. You know, wins have a way of building on themselves, and losses due too. So, incremental big win, small wins — I'm just trying to win. So yeah, to me… and even in the face of a loss, you're still winning, because it's an opportunity to learn, right? I'm sure it's a common theme, but it's true. We all have experienced failure. Nobody wants to talk about it, but everybody experiences it some way. How do you deal with that failure? We talk about resiliency at the Academy, you know? We talk about integrity a lot. We talk about service, we talk about excellence, but we don't talk about failure necessarily, because we're Academy grads. We don't fail, right? We don't fail. But it's true: Even in failure, you're it's an opportunity to win, and the more wins you kind of put together. They cascade, and they grow into great things. And that's kind of where I see, at least my growth and development has been through just a cascading of small, big, intermediate and honestly, putting myself out, taking myself out of my comfort zone, see where the chips fall. Naviere Walkewicz 18:44 Well, we'd like to hear what your leadership lessons and takeaways are, because there have been really a lot of moments in here that I think everyone has been able to kind of see themselves in, right? You've had moments where you've had to kind of pick yourself up, even when you weren't sure what that looked like, and you did. What, what might you leave with our folks? Christian Evans 19:04 You know, we go through a lot of leadership training, so it's like a leadership podcast to teach me what I've been training for, for it feels like our whole adult life could seem redundant sometimes. So, I'm not going to give anybody a nugget that they might not have heard before, but something that I've tried to do that maybe, when I think about leadership, has helped me to approach it in a different way, is to always think about leading with love to a certain extent. I don't mean that to be mushy, I mean that to be sincere. Always go into a situation thinking about the person you're dealing with, as opposed to yourself. Little things like I said, we've got a lot of technical and structured education about what leadership is, but how do you actually execute and effectively live it? So for me, it's a very selfless kind of approach. But I always say, “Lead with love,” and that's what I'll continue to do, right? But I don't have any groundbreaking nuggets. I don't think about leadership all the time. It's just in me, right? I think it's in all — most — of us, they made sure of that. But sincerely, leading with love, because there are other obvious nuances and principles to leadership, but to me, that's the one that gets lost the most in translation, sometimes. Naviere Walkewicz 20:40 Can you share a moment when you led with love and it was maybe a moment where you wouldn't have expected that's the way that you could actually solve something? Christian Evans 20:53 I wouldn't say I have a specific instance. It's just who I am. So, I don't really have an instance. I think every time that I get the opportunity to be in a leadership situation that's at work, in my day job, that leadership looks a little different than leadership in an AOG board capacity, or leadership in other board service that I do around the town of Dallas, or really leadership within your own peer groups, right? It's just a part of who I am. So I don't necessarily have a specific situation. It's just most of the situations where I found myself having an opportunity to actively lead other people, I try to make sure that I'm implementing that, and I think most people that have gotten to work with me would attest to it. Naviere Walkewicz 21:57 Well, I can validate that certainly. Just in our interactions together, I think I've seen you lead with love, and it's because you put the human aspect in. How can I help you? — is really how it translates across, and I think that's very powerful. It's maybe not something that people think about, but it's probably highly effective. But even more so, it's incredibly, probably fulfilling. Christian Evans 22:19 Yeah, I would say one thing I learned is, I don't need much help. I'm gonna go figure it out. But there's a lot of people that don't have that same personality type, and so I think that's important when they don't, is that you can be somewhat of a force multiplier for them, using Air Force speak. Naviere Walkewicz 22:39 I think it's wonderful what you're leading and you're passionate about, and it, again, dovetails from, I think, all of your experiences, of always wanting to make something better than what you had had to go through or experienced in life. Christian Evans 22:50 You had told me to repeat this, but I had said if you would have asked just about anybody that knew me as a cadet and young officer, if Chris Evans — because I didn't become Christian until I came as a civilian, and everybody's Chris — but yeah, Chris Evans is on the AOG board. They'd say, “No way, no way.” So, I think the Academy, we've all had our experience with maybe getting broken down, whether it's basic training, whether it's your first year, academics. I would say, it started for me during basic training. Growing up and coming into the Academy, I thought of myself as a pretty good kid. You know, I focused on school first, athletics second, and I had a lot of success in those two spaces. I was blessed to be recruited to the Academy to play football. However, I did have a little intellectual curiosity about what the place was all about. Coming on my recruiting visit, seeing the training going on, it definitely piqued my interest. But when I got here and went through the Prep School first, I actually somewhat enjoyed that experience. Basic training at the prep school was hard, but it definitely tests your mettle. And after maybe that first few weeks and thinking that I might quit, having a few conversations with people back home, definitely made the decision that I came here for a reason I was going to see it through. That was challenging next year, during basic training, matriculating into our first — or four-degree year, and I had a very catastrophic event happened with my family where my grandfather was tragically murdered by my uncle — I mean, to be transparent. When we were preparing for this, you mentioned, “Oh, you've gone through some traumas,” and I never really thought about it as a trauma, but it definitely was one. And I would say, through the healing process, I connected with a very great chaplain we had here who took a lot of time to help me heal. However, he could only do so much because I had a lot of work to do for myself. I was blessed to be able to travel and play as a freshman and so in that, between going through what I went through in basic training and then the culture of the football team of somewhat really focusing inward, it definitely helped to lead to a general indifference about maximizing my time at the Academy and focusing on things that may not have been as value add to the bigger picture of being here, if that makes sense. So, from a leadership perspective, in my sophomore year, I had to make a serious decision, like, “If I'm going to stay here, well, what am I here for? Am I going to maximize my time, or am I going to keep goofing off and trying to live like I'm at a civilian school kind of thing?” And so, I did make a conscious effort then to kind of lock in, but still, a young athlete that had a lot of distractions around them, there was still a lot of room to grow. And as I went through my cadet time, I would say, definitely found the beginning of my pride in this institution. Nothing like graduating and have the president call your name, right? That was probably one of the cooler experiences. I would say that was the genesis of my indifference towards the bigger picture of what the Academy represents. But in that, I did come to a few moments where I realized that “Hey, you're really wasting your time here if you're going to continue behaving and really thinking about the Academy from a selfish lens.” That just goes to show it's OK to grow up. The Terrazzo-gap doesn't still have to exist. We could all kind of give back to our organization in ways that we're comfortable with, but you just got to find the avenues to do it. Naviere Walkewicz 27:27 Well, when I think of the Next Gen community, what excites me is I think about the two cadets that I have at the Academy, and it's the Next Gen community that's going to be their mentors when they graduate. So, when you think about that, it really puts it in perspective. Christian Evans 27:41 They'll also be their commanders too. Naviere Walkewicz 27:43 That's right. Well, Christian, it's been a pleasure having you on Long Blue Leadership. Thank you so much for being here today. Christian Evans 27:49 Thank you again for having me and thank you to the whole team that makes this podcast happen. I know there's a lot of work that goes into it. Thank you for having me. Naviere Walkewicz 28:01 Thank you for joining us for this edition of Long Blue Leadership. The podcast drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on all your favorite podcast apps. Send your comments and guest ideas to us at social media@usafa.org, and listen to past episodes@longblueleadership.org KEYWORDS Leadership, mentorship, personal growth, Air Force Academy, community impact, resilience, humor in leadership, self-discovery, transition to civilian life, alumni engagement. The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
The Association of Graduates and Air Force Academy Foundation just dropped a special episode of Long Blue Leadership, featuring our continuing coverage of the 32nd National Character and Leadership Symposium. ----more---- Bryan Grossman, senior director of strategic communications and managing editor of Checkpoints magazine, speaks with this year's Sullenberger Award for Courage recipients. “Atomic,” “Batman,” “Guns,” and “Royal” helped stave off an arial assault on an allied nation. Listen to their stories on any of your favorite podcast apps and watch for more additional coverage in your March Checkpoints. (L-R) OUR GUESTS FOR THIS SPECIAL EDITION OF LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Capt. Kyle "Royal" Abraham, USAFA '19 Capt. Logan "Batman" Cowan, USAFA ‘18 Capt. Carla "Guns" Nava, USAFA '18 Claire "Atomic" Eddins, USAFA '18 "...All (four of these) warfighter graduates distinguished themselves in what has been called the largest air-to-air engagement in over 50 years when they helped turn away Iran's April 2024 attack against Israel. Their extraordinary airmanship contributed greatly to preserving regional stability, protecting Coalition forces, and saving countless civilian lives." Copy Credit: USAFA Superintendent's Office CHECKPOINTS ONLINE ACCESS THE MOST RECENT ISSUE OF CHECKPOINTS - REQUIRES SIGN-IN THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEMPORARY STUDIO CADET HONORS CONFERENCE ROOM, POLARIS HALL VIEW THE FULL NCLS 2025 SPEAKER AND PRESENTER PLAYLIST The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
In this special episode of Long Blue Leadership, we present our Long Blue Line Podcast Network coverage of National Character and Leadership Symposium 2025. ----more---- SUMMARY The theme for this year's symposium was “Warfighters to Win.” Cadets heard from leaders who model the warrior spirit of our Air Force and Space Force. Host, Ted Robertson, Multimedia and Podcast Specialist for the Air Force Academy Association of Graduates and Foundation, spoke with organizers, speakers, and panelists who came to NCLS from all across the military and academia. OUR GUESTS FOR THIS EPISODE SEGMENT 1 Topic: a look inside CCLD, the annual production of NCLS, and a preview of who is guesting in this podcast. Ms. Danielle Brines NCLS Program Director Dr. Michele Johnson NCLS Speaker Engagement Team Lead SEGMENT 2 Topic: the thinking behind NCLS and how the Academy and cadets benefit and gain from the event and year-round programs. Dr. Doug Lindsay '92 Executive Editor, Journal of Character and Leadership Development Author, In Your Moment: Mastering Your Leadership Thresholds SEGMENT 3 Topic: Sharing their journeys to careers in support of Strike Eagle Squadrons. 1st Lt. Gabrielle "DARE" Sutedjo '21 Intelligence Analyst for the 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB supporting four Strike Eagle squadrons. Capt. Joel Zamot '18 Lead Weapons Systems Officer, 335th Fighter Squadron, Seymour Johnson AFB supporting four Strike Eagle squadrons. SEGMENT 4 Topic: Task Force Hope: Crisis Leadership and Moral Injury Recovery. Task Force (TF) Hope equips participants with the tools to face adversity head-on, lead decisively through crisis, and recover with resilience from the lasting weight of moral injuries. Forged in the crucible of operational challenges, it embodies 14 years of relentless refinement, evolving from a 2010 Squadron Officer School (SOS) paper into a powerful SOS elective and further sharpened by the innovative rigor of the 2020 SOS Think Tank. Tested and validated by over 2,000 Air Force captains, three academic years of Air War College students and faculty, the 55th Operations Group Global Squadron Command Summit, and multiple Air Force, Army, and USSOF units, TF Hope empowers leaders to master their craft, make bold decisions amidst uncertainty, and outpace the chaos of crisis. The resounding feedback from participants underscores its impact: “Why didn't I hear this earlier in my career?” Col. Jonathan Sawtelle Founder of Task Force Hope Air Force Weather Career Field Manager at Headquarters Air Force, the Pentagon, Washington D.C. Lt. Col. Brandon Murphy '07 Director of Operations for the 306th Operations Support Squadron at the U.S. Air Force Academy. Maj. Tara Holmes Chief of Cadet Development at the Center for Character and Leadership Development at the U.S. Air Force Academy. SEGMENT 5 Dr. John Torres '82 Topic: "No Excuses." Dr. John Torres is a self-described “Air Force brat” who graduated from the U.S. Air Force Academy in 1982. His 32-year military career in the Air Force included active duty as a C-130 Hercules pilot and service in the Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve as a flight surgeon. His military service also included a tour of duty in Iraq in 2004, as well as rescue missions at the South Pole and in response to Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Rita. Leveraging his combined medical and military experience, Torres helped establish training courses for NATO Special Forces soldiers to ensure a high level of consistency across various nations, languages and cultures. SEGMENT 6 Topic: Preview of our interview with the four winners of the Capt. Sullenberger Award for Courage. The podcast was hosted by Bryan Grossman, Association of Graduates and Foundation Senior Director of Communications. Publication is set for March 13-16, 2025. Capt. Claire Eddins, USAFA '18 Capt. Carla Nava, USAFA '18 Capt. Logan Cowan, USAFA ‘18 Capt. Kyle Abraham, USAFA '19, All warfighter graduates distinguished themselves in what has been called the largest air-to-air engagement in over 50 years when they helped turn away Iran's April 2024 attack against Israel. Their extraordinary airmanship contributed greatly to preserving regional stability, protecting Coalition forces, and saving countless civilian lives." Copy Credit: USAFA Superintendent's Office VIEW THE FULL VIDEO PLAYLIST OF ALL SPEAKERS AND PRESENTERS The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
Dr. Heather Wilson, a 1982 Air Force Academy graduate, formerly the 24th Secretary of the Air Force, and first USAFA graduate to hold the position, discusses her unexpected journey to the role, emphasizing the importance of integrity, service, and leadership. ----more---- SUMMARY Dr. Wilson shares her unexpected journey into leadership, the importance of integrity, and the lessons learned from both successes and failures. She reflects on her family legacy, the influence of mentors, and how her military background shaped her leadership style. Dr. Wilson emphasizes the value of collecting tools for leadership and adapting to different environments while maintaining core values. In this conversation, she discusses the importance of finding purpose in one's mission and the value of relationships, particularly family support. She reflects on her journey as a woman in leadership, the significance of legacy in public service, and her unexpected path to serving in Congress. Dr. Wilson emphasizes the lessons learned in collaboration and the importance of humor in leadership, ultimately encouraging future leaders to uphold high standards and not to shame their families. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK TAKEAWAYS Dr. Wilson's journey to becoming Secretary of the Air Force was unexpected and transformative. Leadership often requires owning failures and focusing on solutions. Integrity is foundational to effective leadership and builds trust. Adapting leadership styles to different cultures is essential for success. Mentorship and influences from family play a significant role in shaping leaders. Collecting tools and knowledge is crucial for effective leadership. Quality management principles can be applied to various fields, including education and social services. Leadership is not linear; it involves navigating different paths and chapters. Building strong teams and hiring the right people is vital for organizational success. Direct communication and honesty are key components of effective leadership. Doing things that matter with people you like is essential. The most important decision in life can be personal, like choosing a partner. Family support enriches life and provides joy. Women in leadership often face unique challenges but can pave the way for others. Legacy is about making lasting changes in systems and strategies. Unexpected opportunities can lead to significant career changes. Collaboration and giving credit to others is key in leadership roles. Humor can help create a relaxed atmosphere in serious environments. Education is crucial for transforming lives and communities. Leadership is not always a straight path; adaptability is important. EPISODE CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to Long Blue Leadership 01:25 Unexpected Call to Leadership 03:16 Lessons from Leadership Challenges 08:28 The Importance of Integrity 10:07 Adapting Leadership Styles 12:23 Influences and Mentorship 15:25 Family Legacy and Influence 17:41 Learning from Team Members 21:29 Applying Quality Management Principles 24:07 Navigating Non-Linear Leadership Paths 24:20 Finding Purpose in Mission and Relationships 28:06 The Importance of Family Support 30:08 Navigating Leadership as a Woman 34:30 Legacy and Impact in Public Service 36:29 Unexpected Paths: Serving in Congress 41:03 Lessons in Collaboration and Leadership ABOUT DR. WILSON - IMAGES AND BIO COURTESY OF UTEP BIO Dr. Heather Wilson became the 11th President of The University of Texas at El Paso in 2019 after serving as Secretary of the United States Air Force. She is the former president of the South Dakota School of Mines & Technology, and she represented New Mexico in the United States Congress for 10 years. Active in community and national affairs, she is a member of the National Science Board, which oversees the National Science Foundation, and serves as a board member of the Texas Space Commission. She was the inaugural Chair of the Alliance of Hispanic Serving Research Universities, and is a member of the board of directors of Lockheed Martin Corporation. Dr. Wilson is the granddaughter of immigrants and was the first person in her family to go to college. She graduated from the U.S. Air Force Academy in the third class to admit women and earned her master's and doctoral degrees from Oxford University in England as a Rhodes Scholar. UTEP is located on the U.S.-Mexico border – in the fifth largest manufacturing region in North America – and serves over 24,000 students with 170 bachelor's, master's and doctoral degree programs in nine colleges and schools. In the top 5% of public universities in the United States for research and designated a community-engaged university by the Carnegie Foundation, UTEP is America's leading Hispanic-serving university. It is the fourth largest research university in Texas and serves a student body that is 84% Hispanic. President Wilson is an instrument rated private pilot. She and her husband, Jay Hone, have two adult children and two granddaughters. Dr. Heather Wilson served as the 24th Secretary of the Air Force and was responsible for the affairs of the Department of the Air Force, including the organizing, training and equipping and providing for the welfare of 660,000 Active-Duty, Guard, Reserve and civilian forces their families. She provided oversight of the Air Force's annual budget of more than $132 billion and directs strategy and policy development, risk management, weapons acquisition, technology investments and human resource management across a global enterprise. Dr. Wilson has more than 35 years of professional experience in a range of leadership and management roles in the military, higher education, government and private industry. Before assuming her current position, Dr. Wilson was president of the South Dakota School of Mines & Technology, an engineering and science research university. From 1998 to 2009, Dr. Wilson was a member of the U.S. House of Representatives, where she served on the House Armed Services Committee, the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the House Energy and Commerce Committee. Before being elected to Congress, Dr. Wilson was a cabinet secretary in New Mexico's state government responsible for foster care, adoption, juvenile delinquency, children's mental health and early childhood education. From 1989 to 1991 Wilson served on the National Security Council staff as director for defense policy and arms control for President George H.W. Bush during the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Warsaw Pact. From 1991 to1995 and again from 2009 to 2013 Wilson was in the private sector. In 1991, she founded Keystone International, Inc., a company that did business development and program planning work for defense and scientific industry. She served as a senior advisor to several national laboratories on matters related to nuclear weapons, non-proliferation, arms control verification, intelligence and the defense industrial base. Wilson also served on the boards of two publicly traded corporations as well as numerous advisory and non-profit boards. CONNECT WITH DR. WILSON LINKEDIN | UTEP ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Guest: Dr. Heather Wilson '82 | Hosts: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz 00:00 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership, the podcast where we share insights on leadership through the lives and experiences of Air Force Academy graduates. I'm Naviere Walkowicz, Class of '99. Our story is about a leader who reached heights fellow Air Force Academy graduates had not reached before her, and this was at a time when opportunities to do so were still new. My guest is Dr. Heather Wilson, Class of '82. As you heard, she served as the 24th secretary of the Air Force, but there is a unique distinction attached to that. Dr Wilson, welcome to Long Blue Leadership; we have much to discuss. Let's start with you becoming the secretary of the Air Force, our 24th. Dr. Heather Wilson 00:37 Yeah, that wasn't part of my life's plan. Secretary Designate Mattis did call me. I was in South Dakota as the president of the South Dakota School of Mines and my cell phone rang and he said, “This is Jim Mattis, and I want to talk to you about becoming secretary of the Air Force.” And honest to goodness, my initial answer was, “Sir, you do know that being a college president is like the best job in America, right?” And he said, “Yeah, I know. I just came from Stanford.” And I said, “I didn't apply for any job. I mean, I like it out... I'm a gal of the West. I like the mountains. I like hiking and biking and fly fishing.” And he said, “Yeah, I know. I grew up on the Columbia River in Washington.” And I thought, “This isn't working,” but we talked several more times, and it was pretty clear that I was being called to serve in a way that I didn't anticipate, but that was what I was supposed to do. Naviere Walkewicz 01:35 What a transformative moment in your life, I'm sure. Dr. Heather Wilson 01:38 Well, it was. Again, my entire life, I think, is a diversion from its planned course. But I turned out — I didn't anticipate that, and it meant — my husband doesn't really much like big East Coast cities that rain a lot and have a lot of traffic, and so from a family point of view, it wasn't what we personally wanted to do, but you're called to serve. And we've been called to serve in different ways in our lives and sometimes, even if it feels inconvenient, you're still called to serve. It turned out to be wonderful and I really enjoyed the experience, both of working with Sec. Mattis, but also getting back to spending time with airmen. And so it turned out to be wonderful, but it wasn't what I expected. Naviere Walkewicz 02:25 Well, you said it, ma'am. As we know, service and leadership aren't linear, and so we're really excited to dive into some of those experiences today. Maybe share, as secretary of the Air Force, some of those moments in leadership that stuck with you. Let's just kind of start there. Dr. Heather Wilson 02:42 Certainly. There were good days and not so good days. I think one of the things that I really benefited from was that I had a partner in the chief of staff, Dave Goldfein, who was absolutely fantastic. And we've remained very close friends. We started at the Academy the same day and he would joke and tell people that we didn't graduate on the same day because he went stop-out for a year. But we didn't know each other well as cadets, but we were formed by some of the same experiences and I think that helped tremendously. I didn't really understand that in our system of government, the civilian secretary has almost all the authority, but the chief of staff has almost all of the influence. And if you can figure out how to work together, you can get a heck of a lot done. And Dave and I both had that same approach, and it turned out to be a great partnership. Naviere Walkewicz 03:42 That's pretty incredible. In fact, the time of your service in that role, I was actually working under your umbrella at U.S. STRATCOM. I was at Strategic Command there as a government civilian and as a reservist. And so, I can certainly speak to, I think, some of the amazing things that you did. Can you share a little — you talked about some ups and downs. What was maybe one of the failures as secretary of the Air Force that you learned from that helped you throughout your life? Dr. Heather Wilson 04:11 Well, I know the day. I think it was Nov. 5, 2017, and it was a Sunday, late morning or early afternoon, and my phone rang. I was upstairs in the study in my row house in Virginia and it was the inspector general, Gen. Syed. And that morning, a young man had walked into a church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, and opened fire and killed a lot of people, and it turned out he had been an airman, and the general said, “You know, we're not sure yet, but he may have been convicted of a crime that would have required us to tell the FBI and the national criminal records check system that he had committed a crime that would not allow him to purchase a weapon, but we may have failed to notify.” We didn't know, we wouldn't know that afternoon but I talked to the chief and we all got together on Monday morning at 9 a.m. and Gen. Syed confirmed that he was an airman, he had been convicted of a domestic violence-related crime, and we had not properly notified the FBI, and as a result, he had been able to buy a weapon. Um, that was not a good day. And we talked about what we should do next, and our general counsel wasn't there — he was traveling that morning, but a more junior lawyer was there, who suggested kind of — and, you know, other people said, well — it actually got worse because there was an IG investigation, an internal audit from several years before, that showed that all of the services were not properly reporting to the national criminal records system. So we hadn't fixed the problem. We knew; we had been informed there was a problem and hadn't fixed it. And some people said, “Well, you weren't here at the time.” That doesn't matter. You wear the uniform, or you wear the cloak of office, and you have to take responsibility for the institution. And of course, the lawyers would say, “Well, you know, maybe you want to fuzz this and not take — you know, there's investigation going on,” or something. But we knew enough of the facts that morning, Monday morning, and Dave Goldfein and I decided to own it, to own the failure and focus on fixing the problem. And we did. And in the short term that was very uncomfortable. We sat in front of the Pentagon press corps and took their questions, and we went to Capitol Hill and informed the members of Congress on what had been done and not been done and why. But in the long term, by owning failure, we were able to focus on fixing the problem rather than just trying to manage responsibility and accountability, and it turned out to be a much better approach. So, sometimes the most important lesson is to own failure. Naviere Walkewicz 07:09 I'm so glad you shared that, ma'am, because I think some people have a fear of failure, but there are many times when failure is inevitable, and to your point, owning it is the right approach. Something you said when you're sharing that, it made me think about us as cadets and our core values: integrity first. And that really resonated with how your approach was. Would you say that was born for you at the Academy and kind of through your career that's where it stayed, or has that always been part of your fabric? Dr. Heather Wilson 07:36 I think the Academy was absolutely formative in that way, in the Honor Code. And, you know, integrity first, service before self, and excellence in all we do, now replaces what was there when I was a cadet, over the archway there. But I think that's woven into the fabric for airmen, and it's part of our culture, and it drives you. And I think — you know now we look at, how do we evaluate officers? It's the same way I now evaluate leaders — any leaders that work with me — and it's the way I evaluate myself: accomplish the mission, lead people, manage resources and make your unit better, all on a foundation of values. But it's that last part of it: all on a foundation of values. If you don't have that, the rest of it almost doesn't matter. You can try to make your unit better, but if you're lying about it, nobody's going to trust you. If you're leading people and managing resources, but you don't have integrity, it doesn't matter. So, integrity first, and that commitment to trying to be honest and direct with people builds those relationships of trust, which lasts for decades throughout a career. Naviere Walkewicz 08:53 Absolutely. And the key word, I think, that foundation you talked about — how has that foundation served you in leadership as you've explored other areas outside of the military, amazing roles leading UTEP, also at the South Dakota School of Mines, in higher education? I'm sure that there's a translation of what that looks like. Can you share maybe an example of how that came into play? Dr. Heather Wilson 09:15 Sure, it happens all the time. I think in any leadership position, whether you're in corporate life, in community life and a nonprofit, or in higher education, leading with a foundation of values, being honest, complying with the law, following the rules or changing the rules. It doesn't mean — that's one of the things that I think is probably important for leaders. You get to a point as a leader where your job is not just to follow the rules, but to look at the systems and identify the rules that need to be changed, but to be direct and honest about that too. Where it's not “Well, I think this rule doesn't make any sense, so I'm going to skirt it,” or “I'm not going to tell people that I've complied with something and I haven't.” In fact, you know that happened to me this morning. I got a disclosure that I was supposed to sign for a report that was published yesterday to the director of National Intelligence on a committee that I serve on, and they sent this kind of notification on what you can talk about publicly, and all of those things, and I hadn't given up my right to speak publicly about unclassified matters, and I responded, “I understand what you've said. I want to let you know that this is how I interpret this, and this is the way I'm going to act.” I was very direct about it. “I didn't give up my First Amendment rights as a citizen because I worked on your task force.” So, very direct. And I think that directness is something that — not all cultures are that way, including higher education culture. I have to be a little bit careful about that sometimes — the airman's tendency to have a frank debrief isn't always the way other cultures and work cultures are. They're just not always like that, so, I have to be a little bit careful sometimes that I don't crush people's will to live or something. Naviere Walkewicz 11:13 I was actually thinking about that as you were speaking how, if you have the foundation, especially from the military, we kind of understand that directive approach and certainly those core values that we know of. And I'm curious, how do you adapt as a leader to those who maybe don't have that foundation? How do you bring them up to speed and kind of help them establish that? Dr. Heather Wilson 11:32 Well, it's a two-way street. It means that I have to understand the culture that I'm in and the way in which I talk with senior faculty may be slightly different than the way I might talk to somebody who just got off a flight line and was too low and slow on final or something, you know? But at the same time with both a sense of humor and a little bit of grace… It was really funny when I was at South Dakota Mines, my provost was a long-time academic. And of course, I had served in Congress for 10 years as well. And he once said something to me that just made me crack up. He said, “You know, you are the least political president I've ever worked with. And the funny thing is, you're the only one that was really a politician.” And he said, “You remind me more of a military officer.” And I thought, “Yeah, that's probably true.” But I was fairly direct as a member of Congress as well. And so, I've just found that that works better for me in life, I guess. Naviere Walkewicz 12:37 You were sharing how, you know, I think it was the provost that said that you really didn't remind him as someone that was very political, even though you're the only politician he's known. And so what was your time like serving in Congress? I mean, that's 10 years you did, I think, correct? Dr. Heather Wilson 12:52 I did. And again, I didn't expect to serve in Congress. My predecessor became very seriously ill shortly before the filing deadline for the election that happened in 1998, and my phone rang. It was a Thursday night. This happens to me. I don't know why, but it was a Thursday night, and my phone rang. I was working in Santa Fe, cabinet secretary for Child Welfare, and it was Sen. Pete Domenici, the senior senator for the state of New Mexico. And he said, “You don't know anything about this, but I'm coming to New Mexico this weekend, and I want to talk to you about running for Congress.” Well, that's a quiz; that's not a question. Because a quiz has a right answer, which is, “Sir, I'd be happy to talk to you about whatever you want to talk about.” He's a United States senator. So, we talked about all kinds of things, and he called me from the airport when he was heading back to Washington that Sunday night, and he said, “Look, if you will run, I will help you.” And I decided to run. It was eight days before the filing deadline. I talked to my predecessor — he was fighting skin cancer — and said, “Look, why don't you just focus on fighting cancer? Two years from now, if you want to run again, you can have this seat back. I'll try to do my best for the next two years.” And then 30 days later, he died. I mean, you're not supposed to die of skin cancer. And so, I ended up serving for 10 years in the Congress in a very difficult swing district that I probably shouldn't have won in the first place. But I enjoyed the service part of it. I enjoyed the policy work part of it — intellectually challenging. Some of the partisan silliness I didn't like very much. And then when I left the Congress, ran on successfully for the Senate and became a university president. One of the great things — I tell people now that I was released from Congress early for good behavior. But it was nice to be in a town where people were waving at me with all five fingers. I mean, it was wonderful. So, I enjoyed the service, and I enjoyed a lot helping people — doing casework and things. But it was also a little bit less of a partisan time where you could try to listen and learn and serve well and try to serve your constituents without just being under attack mercilessly and in social media, or something. It was maybe perhaps a different age. Naviere Walkewicz 15:25 Well, I chuckled when you said waving with all five fingers. That got a good one out of me. I thought about when you're in that, because that wasn't something you were looking to do, and this seems to be a bit of a theme in your leadership trajectory as well. You've kind of been tapped on the shoulder, and you know, for the ones that you didn't apply for or run for, plan for, have been such transformative positions in your life. Dr. Heather Wilson 15:50 Yeah, and I think maybe that happens to people more than we might acknowledge, because when we're planning our lives, we think we know what's going to happen, but in reality, we adapt to situations that develop and opportunities open that you didn't know were there or someone asked you to take on a special project and that leads you in a direction that you didn't anticipate. So while mine seem particularly unusual in these very different chapters of my life, I don't think it's all that unusual. We just look forward and project in straight lines, and when we look backward, we tell a story in a narrative and it's not always a straight line. But I've been blessed to be asked to do some things. And perhaps in our relationship, my husband and I, he doesn't like change. I love it, and so in our relationship, he's kind of the keel and I'm kind of the sail, and together, we go places. Naviere Walkewicz 16:56 That's awesome. And I think that particular time and journey in your career serving in Congress was probably one that you established new tools in your leadership toolbox. Were there any that particularly stood out — moments, either when you were having to, you know, forge new policy or achieve things that you hadn't prior? Because Congress is a kind of different machine. Dr. Heather Wilson 17:21 Yeah, it's a very big committee, and it's not executive leadership. And so I'm probably more predisposed to executive leadership than just being on committees. It takes a very long time to get anything done in Congress, and our government is intentionally designed that way to protect us from tyranny. So you have to take that philosophical approach to it, even if you're frustrated day to day. I did learn how to get things done by giving other people credit. And there were several times — the changes to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act is probably one example — where I had sponsored legislation in the House. It had taken quite a bit of time — changing Congress. There were continued problems, and I went to others and tried to put them in positions of leadership and support them. And ultimately, it was a Senate bill that passed, but which had been shaped in the background by multiple people, including me, and I was OK with that. And the same thing happened on pieces of legislation about public lands in New Mexico. I remember I came out in favor of doing something in northern New Mexico with respect to some public lands, and I got out ahead of Pete Domenici and he was not happy about that. He was very clear about not being happy about getting a little bit ahead of him on it. But in the end, the piece of legislation there that was signed, and another one on Zia Pueblo were Senate bills. They weren't House bills. But I had moved things forward on the House side, and it didn't matter to me that that it said “S” rather than “H” in front of the name of the bill. So as long as you don't really care about who gets the credit, you can get a lot done in the Congress. Naviere Walkewicz 19:11 That is a powerful lesson. And somewhere in the back of my mind, I think there's a Contrails quote, and I can't remember all of it, but I remember the end of it is, “…if you don't care who gets the credit.” Dr. Heather Wilson 19:11 Yeah, that was probably one of the short ones. Schofield's quote was — we all did pushups for those. Naviere Walkewicz 19:30 Yes, I had a starting moment. I was about to get down… Dr. Heather Wilson 19:35 … and start to sweat… Naviere Walkewicz 19:37 … and take my punishment. That was wonderful, ma'am. I'm glad we actually went back and did that journey. Dr. Heather Wilson 19:42 When I think about my service in the Congress, where I made the most difference, it was in committee work, and particularly on the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, where I served for a significant amount of time, including post-9/11. And I think that work, because the Intelligence Committee, most of it is in private, it's dealing with really hard, really important issues, and you don't bring your staff there. You have to do the work. And I think probably that's where I did some of my most important work as a member of Congress, was in Intelligence. Naviere Walkewicz 20:18 Thank you for sharing that. Who are some other influencers, some key influencers in your life, that have maybe walked alongside you or helped you in these different roles that you've carried in your amazing career. Dr. Heather Wilson 20:31 Oh, they're different people at different times, but certainly as a young person, my grandfather was very important to me. My grandfather had been one of the first flyers in the RAF in World War I, and then came to America in 1922 and flew in the Second World War for what became the Civil Air Patrol. So he did sub search off the Atlantic coast, and varied parts, around to bases, in New England. So, he was important to me as a child. My dad died when I was young. My dad also had been enlisted in the Air Force. He was a crew chief and also a pilot, commercial pilot, after he got out of the service. So I grew up around airplanes and my grandfather was very important to me, and there were other people along the way. When I was a cadet, there was a group commander, Lieutenant Colonel — it's funny, you still remember… anyone who remembers my middle initial, I know it's like, “Oh, this may not be good,” but Robert L. Rame, Lt. Col. Robert L. Rame was the 4th Group commander and my first Air Officer Commanding. General — sorry, Maj. William S. Reeder. He was an Army officer and had been a prisoner of war in Vietnam. Really, I was terrified of disappointing him. It's funny, I just got a Christmas card from him. Life's long, right? Naviere Walkewicz 21:53 Wow. What connections. I'd like to kind of go back a little bit to your grandfather. You said he was really important to you in your life. Can you share maybe some of the ways he influenced you? Obviously, you're third-generation aviator in your family. Is that how you knew you're going to go into service? Dr. Heather Wilson 22:08 Well, the Academy wasn't an option until I was a junior in high school, and so I knew I was going to college, but I didn't really think about where. And then they opened the Air Force Academy to women when I was a junior in high school. So, my grandfather had two sons, and he had five grandsons, and me. But he was pretty — I would say — the way he might say it is he was pretty sweet on me; he and I were very close. We used to play chess after school when I was in high school, and I remember once we just finished playing chess, and I was a senior in high school — so, my grandfather was an aviator; he was also a mechanic. He could use any tool, I mean, he was just amazing with his hands. And I had learned a new tool in school, and I took out a piece of graph paper and I drew a drew a curve, and I said, “Grandpa, do you think you could find the area under this curve?” And he said, “Well, I'd probably count up the squares and estimate from there on the graph paper.” And I then I showed him something new and it was called calculus, and it was the first time in my life that I realized I had a tool that my grandfather didn't have. He had a high school education and had gone into the RAF during the First World War, and he was a great mechanic and a really good man, but I realized that there were opportunities for me that maybe my grandfather never had. Naviere Walkewicz 23:56 I actually got chill bumps when you shared that. Pretty powerful. Thank you so much. Can you talk about, throughout your career — you said if people remember your middle initial, and I'm sure that many on the military side would, because you're amazing… Have you learned from anyone maybe that is not a mentor of you, but someone that has kind of come under your wing? Can you share some leadership lessons that you've learned from those serving alongside and under you? Dr. Heather Wilson 24:24 Oh my gosh, I learn stuff every day from the people whom I'm privileged to work with. And one of the things that I learned over time was, and as you get more senior, the most important thing you do as a senior leader is hire good people who know things that you don't know, because it's not possible to know everything you need to know to lead a large organization. So, you have to organize yourself well and then get great people and let them do their job. So, I learn things every day. I was interviewing somebody yesterday that we're trying to attract to come to the university who is on the communication side of things — marketing and communication and branding. And you know that creative, visual side of my brain, if you did a brain scan, it would be like a dark hole. That's not a strength of mine. And so those kinds of things are — you have to realize what your strengths are, and then to fill in the team and put together a team, which together can accomplish the mission. Naviere Walkewicz 25:34 I'd say your grandfather is still kind of, you know, influencing that. It's almost like you're filling your toolbox with all those areas. Dr. Heather Wilson 25:43 That's funny you use that word. I've told this story before, but my father was both a pilot and a mechanic, and he built an experimental aircraft in our house, and we lived on this, kind of the last house that they would plow to on the end of the road in the winter, right? So, in a very small town, and at that time, there were still traveling salesmen, and the Snap-on tools guy would come probably every six weeks or so, and he had this, like red truck with an accordion thing on the back that looked just like the toolbox in the corner of the garage, right? And we knew that when the Snap-on tools guy came, do not go out. I mean, it was like Christmas for my dad. Do not interfere when the Snap-on tools guy is there. And so he'd go out and lean against the truck, and we could see him laughing and stuff. And eventually my dad would reach in his pocket and pull out his billfold and give the guy a bill, and he'd go back, and he'd lift up the back of the accordion thing and reach in there and give my dad a tool. And my dad would — then the truck would back out, and go on to his next stop. But my dad would take that tool and we'd scramble into the garage to see what he got and stuff. And my dad would usually put that tool in the box in the corner and then go back to what he was doing that day, working on his car or whatever he was doing. And it occurred to me that my dad didn't need that tool that day, but he collected tools, and someday he'd need that tool. And I think great leaders collect tools even when they don't need them today, because they're going to be times when you bring everybody to — you know, there's that great scene in Apollo 13, but it happens around the staff and Cabinet table, and it'll happen in your planning room as a pilot where you've got a new problem, and everybody brings in their tools and says, “OK, how can we make a carbon monoxide filter, or carbon dioxide filter, out of what we've got here on the table?” So, collect tools. And I think that's one of the things I learned from my dad. Naviere Walkewicz 28:00 Oh, that is an amazing story. Can you share maybe a tool that you've had in your toolbox, that you learned way back when, maybe at the Academy, or as a young girl, that you've recently pulled out and used? Dr. Heather Wilson 28:12 Well, one of them — I'm not so sure it's recent, but when I was a small business owner, there was a group in New Mexico called Quality New Mexico, and they taught small business owners the Baldrige Principles for quality management. And then I ended up being the Cabinet secretary for child welfare in New Mexico. So, I took over a foster care system, which was under a federal consent decree for not getting kids forever homes and an overly crowded juvenile justice system. I mean, every intractable social problem was — I realized after a while why I became Cabinet secretary for child welfare, because nobody else wanted that job. I mean it was a really difficult job, but I had these tools on quality management. I thought, “I think we can apply these same principles to improving foster care, to improving the juvenile justice system.” And so we did, and there's some things I was proud of there, but one of my last acts as Cabinet secretary before I ended up leaving and running for Congress was to sign the end of the federal consent decree that had been in place for 18 years that said that the state was not getting foster kids forever homes. We changed the system, but we did it using those quality management principles, which I had learned as a small business owner almost as a lark. So, there's one example. But, you know, we just went through a global pandemic. It was very much a pickup game. Nobody had ever been through that. So, we all got together and figured out how we could use the tools we had, including the research capability on my campus to be able to sequence DNA so that we could do testing on campus and get the results, ultimately, within six hours and then feed that back so we could detect disease before someone was symptomatic, so you could suppress disease on campus for those who had to be on campus. There's some things you can't do remotely. And so, we had our own testing system on campus, which was remarkable. Well, why'd we have that? Because we had some tools in the box. Naviere Walkewicz 30:37 Well, you've used those tools amazingly as you've navigated your career. How would you say that — because yours is… we talked about not being linear. It's kind of been multiple paths and… Dr. Heather Wilson 30:50 Different chapters. Naviere Walkewicz 30:51 Yes, I love that. Different chapters. How would you say that you've navigated leadership through that? And has there been a thread that's been common through all those different chapters that you've… Dr. Heather Wilson 31:04 Yeah, we talked a little about integrity, and that certainly is there. But I when, when people say things like, you know, “Why are you at UTEP?” Or, “Why did you shift to higher ed?” Or, “Why did…” The mission matters so developing people matters. Defending the country matters. So, a mission that matters with people I like. And I realized that when you get down to it, you should do things that matter with people you like and if that's your filter, as long as you can put food on the table, there's a lot of different things you can do, but it should be something that matters with people you like. Otherwise, that time between 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. can seem forever unless you're doing something you like. Naviere Walkewicz 31:49 That is a powerful thread. Mission matters with people you like. How has your family supported you through this? Dr. Heather Wilson 31:56 I live a blessed life. I tell this to students, and probably, as a younger woman, I wouldn't have said these things because I was so focused on being taken seriously, I suppose. But, I lightened up after time and realized, OK, I'm probably too serious. But the most important decision I've made in my life is not to go to the Academy or to run for Congress or to become a college president — none of those things are the most important decision I've made in my life. The most important decision I made in my life was to marry the guy I married. I married a guy who's actually retired Air Force now, but he was a lawyer. Despite that, he's a nice guy and sometimes, I think, particularly for women, there's always that fear that you're going to sit down when you're in a getting into a serious relationship, and it's going to be one of those conversations that says, “OK, we're thinking about making this permanent. Who's going to give up her career?” And it's not really a conversation, or at least maybe it wasn't in my era, but Jay never had that conversation with me. It was always we could do more together than either of us could do alone, and he has been so supportive of me. And, yeah, vice versa. But I had to go back east for something last week, and I knew that even in this big reception that I was in with all these people, that he wasn't going to be there, and if he was, he'd still be the most interesting guy in the room. So, I married well, and my family always — we're a very close family. And I think while my obligations to my family didn't end at the front porch, my family gave richness and dimension to my life that I never really anticipated as a young woman, and it's given me joy. Success seemed possible to achieve; joy always seemed like a gift from God, and I have had joy because of my family. Naviere Walkewicz 34:18 Thank you for sharing that. You talk about when you're hiring, you choose people that kind of fill gaps, but it sounds like, also on your personal team, you want to make sure that you're choosing it, you know... Dr. Heather Wilson 34:30 Yeah, you're going to be roommates for a long time. That matters. And there's the things that you just kind of have to get over. You know, I'm not going to clean around his sink, and he's not going to be bothered about the fact that my closet's color coordinated. I mean, we just live with that, right? Naviere Walkewicz 34:49 I appreciate that about you so much. You talked a minute ago about some things you learned about yourself as a leader. You know, “Not take myself too seriously.” Can you share a little bit more about that journey on your own, like that personal leadership journey that you've made? Dr. Heather Wilson 35:07 Yeah, and I think it's easier as you go on. And honestly, very early on, I was very often the only woman in the room, and so I wanted to be taken seriously. I was also very often the youngest person in the room. And so those two things made me want to be taken seriously. As I went on and got more responsibility, I realized that the truth is I am a very serious and successful woman. My husband would say that I was raised in the home for the humor impaired, and that I've been in therapy with him for over 30 years. So, I gradually learned to see the humor in life. I still am not one that stands up and tells jokes or something, but I see the humor in life and I don't take myself too seriously. The person that I watched who used self-deprecating humor better than any leader I've ever seen was actually Dave Goldfein. Everyone knew when he walked into a room, or if he stood up on a stage at a town hall meeting with a bunch of airmen or something — everybody knew that they were gonna laugh. At some point in that meeting we're gonna laugh, and not at someone else's expense, but at his. And it made people relax around him. He was very, very good at it. But I also knew that his self-deprecating humor was really a cover for exceptional competence, and I never underestimated that, but it made people relax and brought a little bit of joy to whatever intractable problem we were looking at. Naviere Walkewicz 36:51 Well, you shared about sometimes when you're coming up through your leadership, you were often the only woman in the room and sometimes the youngest in the room. What would you like to share on your thoughts of what has that impact been, and what do you see as your legacy? Dr. Heather Wilson 37:07 Well, there were some times, particularly early on, when women flying or women in positions of command was new, where you just had to do the job and realize that you were probably changing attitudes as you went and that it would be easier for those who came after you, and that's OK. I don't see that as much anymore. Although, when I was elected to Congress, I think probably 10% to 15% of the House was women. Now it's more than that, and once it gets to be more than 30% in any room, it doesn't sound — it's almost like you walk into a restaurant where it's all guys or all women, and you notice the difference in the room, the tones of the voices and things. Once you get to about a third, it feels like it's comfortable, but early on, I always was very conscious of it and conscious of the obligation to do well, because I was being judged not only for myself, but for an entire group of people. And so, I was sensitive to that, and wanted to make sure that I didn't, like — “Don't shame the family,” right? So make sure that you keep the doors open. As far as legacy is concerned, and I think back in my time as Air Force secretary, I would say there's two things that I hope linger, and they have so far. One is a change to the promotion system to make sure that we have the right kind of talent to choose from at all levels in the organization, and so that, I think, has continued to persist. And the other one that will be changed over time and has to be changed over time, had to do with the science and technology strategy of the Air Force and the need to stay ahead of adversaries. I think this is a completely separate conversation, but I actually think that that we are at greater risk of scientific and technical surprise today than at any time since the end of the Second World War. And if you go back and read books about engineers of victory, or there's a whole lot of books about how science and technology was brought to bear in prevailing in the Second World War. I think we're at risk now in a way that we've kind of become complacent about. So, science and technology strategy is something that I hope is a legacy. Naviere Walkewicz 39:36 That's amazing, ma'am. And I think not only for our military, but you're able to influence that in the spaces that you are now. Dr. Heather Wilson 39:43 Yeah, engaging the next generation, which is a heck of a lot of fun. You know, the University of Texas at El Paso is a wonderful institution — 25,000 students, half of them are the first in their families to go to college. About 70% or so come from families making less than about $45,000 a year. So, this is a university that transforms lives, and it's a university that — of my 25,000 students, over 5,000 are studying engineering. Another couple thousand are studying science, College of Nursing, College of Education. This has a tremendous impact on the region and on the lives of those who choose to educate themselves. And so it's a wonderful mission to be part of, and I think it's important for the nation. I think regions of the world who choose to educate their people in the 21st century will thrive, and those that don't are going to be left behind, and that's why I do what I do. Naviere Walkewicz 40:44 Well, it clearly aligns with your foundation and your mission, ma'am, and I think that's outstanding. We're going to ask for Dr. Wilson's final thoughts next, but before we do, I'd like to take a moment and thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. The podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio and is available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Be sure to watch, listen and subscribe to all episodes of Long Blue Leadership at longblueleadership.org. So, Dr. Wilson, I would love to take a moment to gather some of your final thoughts, what you'd like to share today. Dr. Heather Wilson 41:21 Well, assuming that most of the folks who listen to this are either cadets or young officers or grads, I leave them with one thought, and that is, don't shame the family. Don't shame the family. People will look up to you because you are an Air Force Academy graduate, or you are an Air Force cadet. The standard is higher, so live up to the standard. Naviere Walkewicz 41:50 Ma'am, we started with you being direct. You ended direct. I think that is amazing. Thank you very much. Thanks for being on Long Blue Leadership. Dr. Heather Wilson 41:58 My pleasure. KEYWORDS leadership, Air Force Academy, integrity, mentorship, quality management, Dr. Heather Wilson, military service, personal growth, career journey, unexpected opportunities, leadership, integrity, family support, women in leadership, public service, legacy, mission-driven, personal growth, collaboration, Congress The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Co-Hosts Naviere Walkewicz and Wyatt Hornsby reflect on the leadership lessons shared by accomplished graduates of the U.S. Air Force Academy over the first two seasons. SUMMARY The hosts highlight key moments and insights from various guests, emphasizing the importance of personal connections, resilience, and the role of mentorship in leadership. They discuss the unique experiences of leaders like Coach Troy Calhoun, Brigadier General Gavin P. Marks, Nicole Malachowski, Madison Marsh, Lieutenant General BJ Schwedo, and Carl Falk, showcasing how their journeys can inspire others in their leadership paths. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK TAKEAWAYS - Leadership is deeply personal and requires understanding your people. - The importance of resilience and the ability to bounce back from setbacks. - Mentorship plays a crucial role in developing future leaders. - Building relationships is essential in leadership roles. - Knowing your craft enhances credibility and effectiveness as a leader. - Leadership is about doing good and positively impacting others' lives. - Embracing vulnerability can lead to personal and professional growth. - It's important to risk failure in pursuit of big dreams. - Support from family and mentors can shape one's career trajectory. - Leaders should encourage others to pursue their passions and dreams. CHAPTERS 00:00 Celebrating Leadership Lessons from the Air Force Academy 02:11 Highlighting Coach Troy Calhoun's Leadership Philosophy 08:09 Insights from Brigadier General Gavin P. Marks 12:59 Nicole Malachowski: Overcoming Setbacks and Embracing Dreams 19:09 Madison Marsh: A Journey of Resilience and Purpose 23:27 Lessons from Lieutenant General BJ Schwedo on Future Conflict 28:23 Karl Falk: The Importance of Support and Grit in Leadership ABOUT THE HOSTS BIOS LT. COL. (RET.) NAVIERE WALKEWICZ '99 Senior Vice President, Engagement With over two decades in leadership roles, my current focus at the Association of Graduates - U.S. Air Force Academy is fostering a robust network of 50,000+ alumni. This commitment involves igniting a culture of engagement and inclusivity, underpinned by a strong foundation in support of our Air Force Academy. - BIO COPY CREDIT: LINKEDIN.COM MR. WYATT HORNSBY Senior Vice President, Marketing & Communications | Executive Editor & Writer Wyatt Hornsby is passionate about developing marketing and communications talent and cohesive, high-performance teams. He is senior vice president of marketing and communications at the Air Force Academy Foundation and the Association of Graduates. He leads the work of the foundation and alumni association marketing and communications division, while also coordinating with various Air Force Academy offices, including Public Affairs and Strategic Communications. - BIO COPY CREDIT: LINKEDIN.COM ALL PAST LBL EPISODES | ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Send your feedback or nominate a guest at: socialmedia@usafa.org TED ROBERTSON: Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org Multimedia and Podcast Specialist | LBL Podcast Network Producer and Editor RYAN HALL: Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org Assistant Director of Multimedia Production | LBL Podcast Network Director BRYAN GROSSMAN: Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Senior Director of Strategic Communications and Publications | LBL Podcast Network Copy Editor WYATT HORNSBY: Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org Senior Vice President, Marketing & Communications | Executive Editor & Writer | LBL Podcast Network Executive Producer FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Co-Hosts: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 | Mr. Wyatt Hornsby Guests: Coach Troy Calhoun '89; Brig. Gen. Gavin P. Marks '96; Col. (Ret.) Nicole Malachowski '96; 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23; Gen. BJ Schwedo '87; Mr. Karl Falk '98, Mr. Ted Robertson Naviere Walkewicz 00:20 Welcome to our Long Blue Leadership retrospective. We're celebrating our first two seasons and the countless leadership lessons shared by some of the most accomplished United States Air Force Academy graduates. Wyatt Hornsby 00:31 Naviere, seasons 1 and 2 have showcased amazing leadership stories and takeaways. From the very start, Long Blue Leadership has given listeners an inside look at real experiences, insights and advice from seasoned leaders, as well as those just beginning their leadership journeys. These deep dives have explored how leaders not only face challenges head-on but also find ways to inspire and empower those around them. Naviere Walkewicz 00:58 Yes, what really sets this podcast apart is the mix of our guests' perspectives on leadership. These discussions have touched on teamwork, perseverance, humility, excellence and service before self. Wyatt Hornsby 01:12 In this edition of Long Blue Leadership, we're sharing a few of our favorite moments. Not easy, because there are so many. Plus, we'll give you a preview of Season 3, which launches soon. Naviere Walkewicz 01:23 And so, without further ado, Wyatt, let's get into our Long Blue Leadership podcast. Wyatt Hornsby Let's do it, Naviere. Naviere Walkewicz Some of our favorite moments. This was not easy to do at all. Wyatt Hornsby 01:33 Indeed, it was not easy. Two seasons — and Naviere, while we're at it, I just want to congratulate you; awesome job on hosting Long Blue Leadership, and also a little plug for our friend Doug Lindsay as well for doing a great job as host. Naviere Walkewicz 01:46 It's been an amazing journey, and I think the biggest thing for me has been just being able to share some of the stories of our graduates. So, like we said, picking just a few of them was really hard, but it's been just a beautiful transformation of where we started and where we're going in Season 3. Wyatt Hornsby 02:01 It's been wonderful storytelling, and I hope that our listeners have been able to take away some great actionable insights for their own leadership journeys, whether they're Academy graduates or others seeking to develop as leaders. Naviere Walkewicz 02:13 I know I personally took some things away from all of these conversations. I think some of them we'll highlight today. Wyatt Hornsby 02:18 Wonderful. Let's do it. Looking forward to it. Naviere Walkewicz 02:21 So, I think you might have the first one you wanted to highlight. Wyatt Hornsby 02:24 So Naviere, as we said, I mean, it's so difficult to find our favorites. I mean, there are just so many across seasons 1 and 2. But I'm going to tell you, I was so struck by Coach Troy Calhoun, Class of '89. That conversation was absolutely awesome. And a couple of things stood out to me, and we'll listen to a clip from our conversation with Coach Calhoun, but a couple things that stood out to me was, I think a lot of people, when they think about Coach Calhoun and him coming on to do a conversation, they're probably going to expect him to talk about the Xs and Os and strategy and how the Falcons are looking for the season. But in this case, what Coach Calhoun did was he came in and he talked about his own leadership journey all the way from the beginning growing up in Oregon. And I just think that throughout the conversation, we learned a lot about him as a person, his family, his formative experiences. And really what I took away from it additionally, was the unique importance of athletics at the Academy, and how Coach Calhoun and his program, like all sports at USAFA, are developing leaders of character for our Air Force and Space Force. Just an awesome conversation. Naviere Walkewicz 03:37 It was an awesome conversation. I think it really talks about — one of the things that stood out, I think, in the clip that you picked up is really about how he views leadership and taking care of people. Let's give it a listen. Wyatt Hornsby Indeed. Troy Calhoun 03:49 You need to be doing something that you love, that you're passionate about. And the other part is, again, just the involvement that you have with your people. And, you know, to get in there, literally, where you're hip to hip and shoulder to shoulder. And I think sometimes, whether you're in a leadership role or maybe you have a certain rank, you think, “Well, I can't do that in order to maintain my distance professionally.” And I wholeheartedly disagree. I think you have to be able to operate from different perspectives as a leader. I think, clearly, you can still articulate and live the standards that are a part of your operation or your unit or your football program. But again, it's about people. Naviere Walkewicz 04:46 Well said. It really is. Wyatt Hornsby 04:47 Well said. Earlier in the conversation too, he had a point where he talked about three things, his philosophy of leadership. You talked to him about his philosophy of leadership. He talked about, as he said in that clip, being right there alongside your people. He talked about knowing your craft incredibly well — not just strategy, but also tactics. And as he mentioned in that clip really well, getting to know your people as humans and what makes them tick. It's easy to, listening to that conversation, it's easy to see why Coach Calhoun has been here for such a long time and been so successful as head football coach. Naviere Walkewicz 05:25 I think one of the lines I remember him sharing about when we talked about leadership was — I think I asked him, like, “It seems like it's really personal,” and he says, “Absolutely, leadership is personal.” It's about being… understanding who, you know, what's going on in their lives, because if you can understand what they're going through, then you can help them through some challenges and move them to, you know, whatever everyone else is working through together. And so, I really appreciated that he talks about getting to know his people on a personal level, and he challenges all of his coaches to do the same. I think there was a point where he even shared that if he knew some of the team members better than the coaches did, then that was a problem, right? And so, I think he wanted to make sure that being a good leader is knowing who your people are and what they need. Wyatt Hornsby 06:07 That's right. It's just so instructive and inspiring to those of us who are developing as leaders. And I mean, it goes without saying, college football is changing. It's changing a lot. But I think for Coach Calhoun, he just talks about, as you said, that importance of relationships. And amid all those in college sports, staying focused on the relationship aspect, getting to know his players and his coaches, and remaining hyper-focused on that mission, developing leaders of character for the Air Force and Space Force. Naviere Walkewicz 06:38 What was something that you took from that personally, that, you know, maybe has evolved the way that you lead or are thinking about leadership? Wyatt Hornsby 06:46 You know, I'm developing as a leader every day. I've had some tremendous mentors in my life, but I really — I enjoyed what he talked about, about knowing your craft. I think that's really important, because I think it helps you build credibility with those that you lead. Of course, you can't know everything about everything that you lead, but knowing your craft, understanding not just the strategies and the tactics, and I think that helps you build credibility with your team and provide the right leadership to set the vision and the priorities for your team. Naviere Walkewicz 07:21 I love that. I think what I took from that conversation was really about being humble. I mean, to be where he at is in his career, and I just felt across the table someone who was so humble in every day, learning from everyone around him and trying to really kind of give back in that way. That's something I always want to try and strive to do. Wyatt Hornsby 07:41 I agree completely. And by the way, he talked about his younger sister, a 10-time all-American, which is pretty incredible. She's also an Academy graduate. And I think if I recall, he said that he looks up to his younger sister. So, I took that away, too. Just a humble, humble leader. Naviere Walkewicz 07:59 I love that. Well, I'd like to go into one of my favorite moments, and it was with Brig. Gen. Gavin P. Marks, Class of '96, the commandant of the Air Force Academy currently. And this one was special for me, Wyatt, for multiple reasons. I have two cadets, as you know, that are going through the Air Force Academy under his leadership, but he was also my basic cadet commander. So, when I was at the Academy as a four-degree, he was leading us through Basic Cadet Training. And a funny story I'll share with you: When I was later in my career as a civilian working at Offutt Air Force Base. He was the wing commander at office Air Force Base, and I was working at STRATCOM, Strategic Command. I turned around a corner, and I immediately go, “Huh, Gavin P. Marks!” and he started laughing, and he goes, “What year are you?” And I said, “'99,” and he said, “It's good that you still remember my middle initial.” But it stuck out to me and then the funny thing after that, I said, “I never knew you had so many teeth,” because he would scare us. But the reason why this podcast was so special was because I think it brought me to a new level of understanding that — in remembering that we're all human right, and so we all have things that we go through. And so, to hear him from his humble days, talking about his mom, I really just enjoyed his perspective on, you know, his career, which wasn't necessarily a trajectory that he was planning. He certainly had some goals of he would love to have been the commandant at the Academy, but it certainly, you know — it kind of moved in a way that we'll talk about in this clip. And so, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on that conversation before we jump into the clip. Wyatt Hornsby 09:35 He has extraordinary presence — Gen. Marks does. And it came through not just in the podcast conversation. We had a reunion, several reunions, where he provided a senior leader briefing, and you can just feel that presence and that commitment and that dedication to the USAFA mission. And I'm really excited to hear this clip and then also share another thought on something from the conversation that really stuck out to me as well. Naviere Walkewicz 10:00 All right. Well, let's roll the clip. Brig. Gen. Marks 10:03 But as you command at higher levels, while the impact — and I probably should have said it this way: The impact that you would have on so many individual airmen's lives lessons, the impact that you can have on an individual airman's life magnifies based on rank. It is significant also, and I always — one of the things that I tell people all the time is, it's an oversimplification, but the only reason to have rank is to do good, is to do good things, to make things happen in a positive way that affect positively mission and benefit airmen's lives. That's it. That's all. And if rank becomes something different than that for you, you're in the wrong business, or we've given it to the wrong person. If I'm being honest with you. Naviere Walkewicz 10:55 What did you think about when you heard that? Wyatt Hornsby 10:56 I am glad that he is the commandant of cadets at the United States Air Force Academy. And I think that I would go so far as to say that what he said there probably reflects how many Air Force — probably all — Air Force Academy graduates feel about leadership, that it's an opportunity to do good for other people, to improve lives, to move people forward, to elevate performance, to lift others. So, super powerful. Naviere Walkewicz 11:24 I think what was also really great about our conversation was how he talked about the importance of family. And I think when you — sometimes when you think about a leader that's made it to such levels in their career, you think, “Well, it's career above everything else.” But he actually talked about how there are a couple of times when he might have retired had he not had the support from his wife and from his family. And I thought that was really insightful as well, where he really consulted them on some of his biggest decisions. Wyatt Hornsby 11:52 That's right, perhaps his closest and most valued partners in life. Naviere Walkewicz 11:56 Yes, I think that's something that our listeners can really value. I know I took that to heart as well, because while it is important, and obviously our professional lives are such a huge part of our lives, our lives are much more holistic than that, right? I think having your networks of support and leadership are really important. Wyatt Hornsby 12:14 I agree. And Naviere, while we're talking about Gen. Marks too, I gotta put in a plug, and I know we're not gonna listen to this clip, but he told an awesome story about a $20 bill and the Honor Code. Naviere Walkewicz Yes. Wyatt Hornsby And as I recall, he really talked about how that was one of the experiences that made him see this United States Air Force Academy — it's a unique and different kind of place. Naviere Walkewicz 12:38 Absolutely, and so if you missed that, it's a great time for you to go back to longblueleadership.org and listen to that clip in its full entirety. Wyatt Hornsby 12:48 That's right. Let's talk about Nicole Malachowski, Class of 1996. This conversation — it was a recent conversation that you had with her — really stood out to me on a couple of different levels. Even as a child, she set her sights on what she wanted to do in life, which was to become a fighter pilot. She was focused on that, and at the height of her career, she had a very difficult setback that she spoke I thought very openly and vulnerably about. I just really appreciated that. But in this clip that we're going to play, Naviere, and I'd love to hear your reaction before our good friend, producer Ted rolls it, I would love to just hear your thoughts about this clip and just really important advice that a mentor provided to her at a key moment. Naviere Walkewicz 13:33 I think you teed it up perfectly. I would say, from sitting across the table, what I felt when I heard that was just a sense of pride in remembering that we all bring something to the table, and empowerment in not being afraid to go forward with it. So, let's give it a listen. Nicole Malachowski 13:51 I remember thinking, “Thank God I didn't put myself out there. Thank God, Nicole,” you know… now I'm a 30-year-old captain, so I'm still a young person. “Thank God you didn't risk failure. Who are you to think you could be a Thunderbird? Silly girl.” Right? And in that moment, the weirdest thing happened, and I tell this story on stage sometimes. The door opened to the Officer's Club, and in walked the wing commander, Brig. Gen. Mark Matthews. And in that moment, over walks my squadron commander, a wonderful man by the name of Dan DeBree. His call sign was “Trash.” Get it? Trash, debris. Trash walks over, super excited, very supportive of my application, and he's like, “Hey, general, did you know Nicole's applying to be a Thunderbird?” Man, I mean, you could have slowed down time. I was like, “Ix-nay on the underbird-tay,” like, “This is terrible.” Neither of these guys knew that I had removed my application, and Dan's standing there all proud. He's my squadron commander, supporting me — a great man, again. And Mark Matthews looks down at me, Gen. Matthews, and he goes, “That's great. How's your application going?” And I'm like — I looked at him, and here's what happened. I said, “You know, so it's hard to be a Thunderbird, but I probably won't get picked. They haven't had a woman, so I don't want to waste anybody's time.” Naviere Walkewicz Oh, you said everything. Nicole Malachowski I said it. I said all of it, and this is kind of an embarrassing story to tell, but I'm just, this is the truth, right? This is the vulnerable truth of how this happened. And he looked down at me, and I will never forget this, and I hope folks listening who have big dreams and gnarly goals remember this. He looked down at me and he said, “Nicole.” Actually, he said, “Fifi.” My call sign. “Fifi, nobody wants to lead a scripted life.” And he walked away and left me in extraordinarily uncomfortable silence. And those words, “…nobody wants to lead a scripted life…” have become my life's mantra. Every time I get the knot in my stomach that says that dream is too big or that idea is too innovative, don't rock the boat. I remember what he said, because those words, like, they lifted the weight of the world off my shoulders, told me it was OK to dream big. It was OK to buck the status quo. It was OK to be different. He was telling me it's OK to risk failure in pursuit of personal, professional growth. And it's not so much I think he's telling you and me to write ourselves into the script. What he was saying was, don't ever write yourself out of the script, and as leaders and teammates, don't you ever write anybody else or their wild ideas out of the script either. Wyatt Hornsby 16:08 That is so powerful. I mean, I know that I have that inner critic, that voice that sometimes tells me, “Write yourself out of the script. You're not good enough. You're not going to make it. Why did you do that?” And probably a lot of us do. Naviere, what do you think? Naviere Walkewicz 16:24 Oh, definitely. I mean, even up to that, she had had that voice in her head, and she shared, right before that clip, she finally got the courage to go into the group commander's office to submit that package. And, you know, the person working at the desk said, “Well, he really only has one, you know, one slot to give so we don't want to waste it on you.” And I think those very specific words make that inner voice, that inner critic, even louder and just kudos to the wing commander for really kind of right setting, I think a perspective that has clearly shaped her life. Wyatt Hornsby 16:59 I agree completely. And we just talked about Gen. Marks and how he talked about doing good for others as a leader. And I think that's what we saw here with Gen. Matthews and the story that Nicole shared. Naviere Walkewicz 17:11 Yes. There were so many amazing moments in her session with me, in her podcast, and so another one that I wanted to call out, because I think many may not know until they listen to her full story, but she actually battled a pretty critical, life-changing disease, and, frankly, she talked about resilience and how resilience is important, but really for her, it was about resurgence. I thought that was pretty powerful in that podcast as well. Did that kind of speak to you in any way? Wyatt Hornsby 17:42 It really did. And I actually think it kind of goes back to “no one wants to lead a scripted life.” I don't think Nicole definitely had that in the script, her health challenge. But it came, and she spoke very honestly about it, about how difficult it was. She had some really, really difficult days, and she found a way forward. She wrote that new script for what she was going to do with the rest of her life. So, that moment really stuck out to me too. Super powerful conversation, and I got the sense too as I was listening to Nicole — and you did such a great job with that conversation — was that she knows who she is. You can tell that she has thought deeply about who she is as a person, as a leader, and she wants to go out and engage with and inspire other audiences and other leaders. So, really came out beautifully in this conversation. Naviere Walkewicz 18:34 That was, in fact, I think one of her giving nuggets to others that were listening was really take the time to know who you are and know what you believe in, what you stand for, and then the rest kind of fills in the blanks. Wyatt Hornsby Well said. Naviere Walkewicz Well, the next one that I want to speak about is 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh, Class of '23 and Miss America. Wyatt Hornsby Miss America. Naviere Walkewicz Miss America. Can we just say that? But what was so great about this particular podcast was, yes, she is Miss America, but we spent so much time getting to know her. And really, I think the depth of who Madison Marsh is, it really kind of blew my mind. Wyatt Hornsby 19:11 Yes. And similar to Nicole Malachowski — Madison Marsh, she had something really difficult happen to her that she's going to go into in the clip that we talked about, and no one should have to go through what Madison did, but she found a way forward. And I think just her story is remarkably inspiring. Naviere Walkewicz 19:33 I actually don't want to give it away. I think we should just roll the clip. Wyatt Hornsby 19:35 Let's do it. Madison Marsh 19:36 I basically printed out all of my essays that I knew that people had to submit in the past for the Academy. I did resumes. I came with my GPA, everything, and I walked right up to my congressman and I handed it to him, and I said, “I want to go to the Air Force Academy, and I want to be your nominee.” And I'm sure he was like, who's… Naviere Walkewicz …I love every bit of this… Madison Marsh So, I was very firm early on, and so we were able to start an incredible relationship with one another. And so, because I did that — I think that was maybe my junior year, early on in my junior year — when it came time my senior year, he fought for me all of the time to get my application in front of people, because I was his principal nominee, and we had a very, very special moment. So, he called me on Oct. 31 and told me that I had gotten early acceptance to the Academy, and so I got to tell my mom, and the next morning she passed away. So having an experience like that is — that's why the Academy and Congressman Womack are so special to me, because that was my dream for years, and my mom got to know before she passed away. And it's just everything happens at the right timing, and you never know until afterwards. And so, now I get to be here; now I get to wear the uniform. And even though she hasn't gotten to see it, she got to know about it. And it just because of those first instances where I marched up to him and I said, like, I want to be here. I got to have experiences like that. And now I get to have wonderful experiences of now serving post-Academy life. Naviere Walkewicz 21:04 I mean, I think that clip still gives me feelings of in that moment where she shared that because I had known that her mom had passed away. But I think what was so powerful about her sharing that story was in the bit of, you know, believing in yourself, going full for something, and then having someone believe in you and champion you to the point where, when you actually get there, and having her mom spend that with her before she passed. I just — that moment was something really special. Wyatt Hornsby 21:34 It really is powerful. It must have been an honor and a privilege to have been able to share that moment with Lt. Marsh. Naviere Walkewicz 21:41 It really was, and I think her whole conversation — what really inspired me, first, the fact that she actually started a foundation in her mom's name, the Whitney Marsh Foundation, but also more so that it actually shaped how she was as a cadet. She talked about, when she had the opportunity to champion others, so, you know, as she progressed in her cadet years, she wanted to make sure that other cadets had someone that they could talk to, so that she would be a voice for them, that she would hear them, and she would see them. And I think that was really powerful, because sometimes she was saying how she had felt lost and how she didn't have that support. And so, she turned it around and made sure that she was that person for someone else. Wyatt Hornsby 22:19 Another example, Naviere, of someone who uses leadership opportunities to do good for others. Naviere Walkewicz 22:25 Absolutely. And I thought, what was also fascinating, as such a young officer, she also — to Nicole Malachowski's point — took some time to know herself because she had been groomed, or maybe not groomed is not the right word, but she had, since early times of wanting to go to the Academy, had thought, I'm going to be a pilot and had been working towards her hours and her private pilot's license to get to the point where she could go to pilot training and become a pilot. And said, “Maybe this, this isn't my trajectory,” and looking into policy and so I think to the point of knowing who you are and knowing what you know you're really passionate about. Also, to what Coach Troy Calhoun said, they all kind of weave together. I thought that was really powerful. Wyatt Hornsby 23:06 Agree. I thought it was very powerful too. And I'm really excited — I'm sure you are too, and a lot of graduates — just to see what she does with her life. I think that she's going to do some great work, and I think we're going to continue to hear about the amazing work that Madison Marsh is pushing forward, whether it's with cancer research and treatments or some other very, very important, worthy cause. Naviere Walkewicz 23:29 Absolutely. No doubt about that. Wyatt Hornsby 23:32 All right. Naviere, this next one, this was early Season 1, and our friend Dr. Doug Lindsay hosted this conversation. Doug is Class of 1992. It really stood out to me, and it was a conversation with Lt. Gen. (Ret.) B.J. Shwedo, Class of '87. Remarkable conversation with the director of the USAFA Institute for Future Conflict about the role that graduates are going to continue to play in our nation's security. Naviere Walkewicz 23:59 I agree. Gen. Shwedo is such a dynamic speaker, and every time I have a chance to hear from him, I learn something new. But maybe for the sake of our listeners, in case they haven't heard that one yet, can you talk about what the IFC is? Wyatt Hornsby 24:10 The IFC is the Institute for Future Conflict. So, it stood up a couple of years ago at the United States Air Force Academy. And really the goal is to inculcate across the Academy — and I'm not going to do this justice the way Gen. Shwedo can — but to inculcate across the Academy a focus on preparing cadets for what they will be facing amid Great Power Competition and for them to be able to bring that holistic thinking and that multi-domain thinking to how to fight and win the nation's wars if they are called upon. Naviere Walkewicz 24:45 It's pretty incredible, some of the things that our cadets are exposed to. I remember when I was a cadet, I couldn't imagine have been briefed by some of our combatant commanders and having top-secret clearance levels to understand, really, what the adversary looks like and what we're up against. But they're looking at it across all different domains, and it's preparing our soon-to-be graduates for what's up for them right after. Wyatt Hornsby 25:11 That's right. And one thing I'll mention before we roll the clip: Like you Naviere, I've heard Gen. Shwedo talk. In fact, we've been in probably many of the same talks, and graduates respond so well to what he shares, and I think it just instills even more confidence in the mission and the priorities of the Air Force Academy. So, without further ado, what do you say we roll that clip? Naviere Walkewicz Let's roll the clip. Gen. Shwedo 25:34 What we got to do is make them aware of the environment we're dumping them in. And case in point, I have one cadet he raises his hand like, you know, “Hypersonic missiles — I don't understand what's the big deal about that.” And I go, “OK, well, first of all, yes, they're fast, but as you remember from Physics 110, a ballistic missile trajectory is all mathematics. That's how the Patriot works. Hypersonic missiles can maneuver. So, all your math is now dead,” and go, “Oh, by the way, when you look down the range and you see all those antennas, NORAD, for the most part, was looking up to the north, because the quickest way to get an ICBM to the United States was over the top. You can actually take a hypersonic missile, put it in a low-Earth orbit, and that attack will come out of Antarctica.” Same cadet immediately raises his hand and goes, “So the maneuvering, is that RF, command guy?” and he's immediately trying to get into it. And I'm like, “I love you, man.” Because honestly, when you start making them aware of the threats, they immediately start thinking countermeasures. So, from the leadership standpoint, they understand that piece. Naviere Walkewicz 26:44 Yes, I think that is huge. And it really talks about understanding what you're up against. I think what I really loved about what Gen. Shwedo said, was having the awareness allowed for them to start thinking about countermeasures. And I think that really does translate to leadership. When you have awareness of things, you can make better decisions. You can think about how you take care of your people better. It just actually translates across so many levels of leadership. What do you think? Wyatt Hornsby 27:09 I agree completely, and I think too, just spending time with cadets — you would know better than I Naviere, you have two up on the Hill right now — but so curious, so curious. And they're here for a reason. They had choices in where they could have pursued what they wanted to do after high school, and they chose the United States Air Force Academy because they want to serve our country and, if called upon, fight and win those nation's wars. And so, just kudos to the work not only Gen. Shwedo is doing, but the cadets too, who are just so curious and so responsive to that awareness and really thinking deeply and preparing themselves for what the world is confronting the United States and our allies with. Naviere Walkewicz 27:53 Absolutely. I think, what I really appreciate about Gen. Shwedo as well is he's another graduate that's giving back to our Academy, right? He's facilitating all of these lessons. He's helping to really promote how we can do this better. But it goes to show how our graduates are really involved with our Air Force Academy. Wyatt Hornsby 28:12 A lifetime of service. I think that's what Gen. Shwedo would say. He came back because he wanted to continue to serve. Naviere Walkewicz 28:18 Yes, absolutely. Well, the last moment that we'll talk about — and again, this was so hard, because there were so many good ones — comes from Karl Falk, Class of '98 the CEO of Botdoc. And this one was special for me, not only because we were at the Academy together, but I didn't know him then, and I know him now as a parent of also a cadet at the Academy. And his story was so, so incredible. Because when you think of a CEO of anything, you think, “Wow, this person's so accomplished. They've done all of these things.” And, you know, they must be doing great, and he is, but it started from humble beginnings. And when you take the time to listen to his podcast, it will really kind of help you see that you can start from anywhere and achieve anything, just as he did. This particular clip I have picked for us to listen to, though, is about kind of having people in your corner, and when people recognize in you, maybe before you do, how they can champion you. Let's give it a listen. Karl Falk 29:20 You know, being in Texas, there's more spotlight on football, and I had some very good coaches. My head football coach in high school, Coach Bubba Fife — everyone in Katie knows Bubba Fife — and even to this day, he's still involved in the in the school district. But he was a big advocate for me, with coaches that came by, and there's some stuff I didn't find out until out until later in life where, you know, back then, it wasn't common for the school to provide shoes and, you know, some guys had their own pads and stuff like that. And I remember my mom years later telling me that actually Coach Fife came to her with money and said, “This is, uh — get him some shoes.” Sorry. That got to me a little bit more than I thought it was gonna be. So, I guess what I can say is, there's been a lot of people, I'm where I'm today because of a lot of people throughout my entire life, and I have a lot to be grateful for. But I was very fortunate to have those coaches in my life because — there was actually a time, this is actually a crazy story. There was a time where — so, I was the big, fat tuba player too. So, I kind of did everything because I enjoyed it, but there was a point where I kind of had to make a decision, because I was actually the guy that was playing football, and then, you know, marching band and football, and that's really tough to do. And I had made up in my mind that I was going to quit football, and because, you know, I didn't have a dad around, and my mom wasn't really into sports, like, I am and my kids are now. And I made up my mind, so I went to talk to one of the coaches, Coach Schubert, and, and I told him, I said, “I'm gonna quit football and, you know, I'm gonna be in the band.” And, and he looks at me, he goes, “No!” Naviere Walkewicz 31:22 Right there. Sometimes the best answer you can get from a boss or a mentor or anybody is, “no.” What do you think, Wyatt? Wyatt Hornsby 31:29 And by the way, Naviere, I'm trying to figure out the logistics. How do you play football and participate in the band? I played football in high school. I just don't know how you do that. Naviere Walkewicz 31:40 You probably didn't change your clothes. You probably wore your uniform, though. Wyatt Hornsby 31:43 Oh my gosh, like, I don't even know how you do that. But no, this was an extraordinary conversation. And you know, one of the things I like about the conversations that you've led and hosted, Naviere, is really going back to the beginning. And my takeaway from that conversation with Karl and that clip that we just played: He's never forgotten where he came from. As you said, he's become very successful in life. He's done well for himself, but he's never forgotten where he came from and who helped him along the way. Sometimes, Naviere, it just takes a pair of shoes. Naviere Walkewicz 32:19 Oh gosh, that conversation was like I was getting to know someone all over again, because I got to know him as a parent of a fellow cadet. Him and his sons, Alec and Arden, were cadets there at the Prep School, now in the Class of '27, but seeing him through his own eyes, it just opened up a whole new experience for me. And I think one of the things I appreciated about his conversation as well was he talked about some of the tough times in getting to be successful. And while, yes, he had those people in his corner that helped him get there, there were times when — I think he even said, you know, “I didn't pay myself, like we might have missed a meal so that my folks could eat,” when he was still building his business. And I think it talks about the grit and kind of hard work and perseverance it takes to become successful. So, while he never forgot where he came from, he also talked about kind of the path to get there, and just the resilience and all of that in that. And I thought that was a really powerful story he shared. Wyatt Hornsby 33:13 Agree, and I would suspect that grit and that perseverance, those were formed early in life, but then also really developed when he was here at the Academy. What do you think? Naviere Walkewicz 33:26 Agree. And I think, and we talked about the lifetime of service that our graduates live. His company has actually given back to the Class of '27 through various ways. And so, I think it really does kind of show how, you know, you never forget where you come from, and then when you can, you give in ways that are meaningful. I think that's really powerful too. Wyatt Hornsby 33:44 That's right. Well, Naviere, that was an awesome conversation. I just so enjoyed revisiting those conversations, and again, just mad congratulations to you, and thanks to you and Doug for just doing such a great job. I mean, this was tough, choosing the conversations that we just talked about, because there are just so many great ones, so many great ones. And I hope that our listeners will go back and listen to those conversations from seasons 1 and 2. But while they're at it, also tell others about Long Blue Leadership. Help spread the word, because these conversations are really impactful. Naviere Walkewicz 34:20 Absolutely, and we can really use feedback coming directly to us at socialmedia@usafa.org. That's a way they can directly let us know what they enjoyed, what we can do better and what they can look forward to in Season 3. Wyatt Hornsby 34:32 That's right. I mean, the podcast space, it's competitive, and there are a lot of great podcast shows out there, and so we know we just have to continue to raise that bar and elevate what we're doing. So, our listener feedback is so important and just continuous improvement and excellence in all we do. Naviere Walkewicz 34:49 Absolutely. Well, thanks. Wyatt. Well, before we share what's coming up in Season 3, we'd like to take a moment and thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. The podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio and is available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Watch or listen to all episodes of Long Blue Leadership at longblueleadership.org. Wyatt Hornsby 35:11 Naviere, this was a real pleasure. I really enjoyed talking about these awesome episodes from seasons 1 and 2. And while we're at it, let's also thank our good friend Ted, who's done just remarkable work in helping to produce this show. And our listeners may not get to hear much from Ted, but he is behind the scenes doing awesome work on the show. Naviere Walkewicz 35:32 He really is. Ted makes us look great, and when you say congratulations to me, it's only because Ted has been right alongside me all this way, and Doug, and anyone else that's been part of this podcast. It really has been us working with Ted. Wyatt Hornsby 35:46 So, Ted, I'm going to put you on the spot. Share with us a little bit about maybe a couple of your takeaways from seasons 1 and 2, and what this process, what this experience has been like for you. Ted Robertson 35:59 I can think about the first day I walked in the door, had my first eyes on the studio, and I'm thinking, “We're gonna have some fun here. We're gonna touch some lives, and we're gonna do some great things.” And it's been a real privilege to be a part of the communications team. And I talk a lot about the people that I work with, but Naviere, you've become a partner, and together, along with everybody else on the team, we're looking forward to bringing some more of these moments to our listeners and just sharing what leadership is all about. And we want to make it global. So, Season 3 coming and lots of great things to come in Season 3. I hope that sort of answers your question. The highlights for me are working with all of you. Naviere Walkewicz 36:50 Aww, thanks, Ted. And speaking of what Ted was talking about, Season 3 is coming up. Should we share some of the amazing guests we're gonna have on the podcast? Wyatt Hornsby 36:59 I think we should, Naviere, I mean, I am like you. I am so excited about Season 3. We've got some amazing names and Naviere. One of our guests is going to be Dr. Heather Wilson, Class of '82, 24th secretary of the Air Force. And she's also currently the president of the University of Texas, El Paso. So cannot wait to have the secretary — I don't know whether to call her Secretary Wilson or Dr. Wilson. Naviere Walkewicz 37:23 I'm sure I'm going to find out, because I'm so excited to have that conversation with her as well. Wyatt Hornsby 37:27 Likewise, and Naviere, I think also, we have a classmate who we're going to be talking to? Naviere Walkewicz 37:31 Oh, we have a couple of classmates, actually. So, one of them, Joel Neeb goes by call-sign “Thor,” — Class of '99, Gold Will Shine — who has been a tremendously successful fighter pilot. He's authored some books, a former CEO, but he dealt with some very specific, I think, health challenges that shaped a new trajectory for him. And I'm not going to give it away. I think that's what they'll learn about in the podcast. Wyatt Hornsby 37:56 I've had a couple of opportunities to spend time with Thor, and I'm excited about this one too. I think it's going to be an awesome conversation. Naviere Walkewicz 38:03 Yes. And his is one where it really is about family too. I think we're going to hear some of that. And then my other classmate is with the FBI, so Mark McCulloch, Class of '99, and I think you've actually done a story on him recently on your team. Wyatt Hornsby 38:17 I think we did a story on him in Checkpoints a couple of years ago, written by Jeff Holmquist. Yeah, I can't wait for this one too. Naviere Walkewicz 38:26 It's amazing what Class of '99 is doing, but there's others. Who else shall we highlight today, Wyatt? Naviere Walkewicz 38:43 We also have some young alumni, current board directors that will be speaking to. One of them is a Young Alumni Excellence Award winner, Emma Przybyslawski, Class of 2010. Wyatt Hornsby 38:51 Can't wait to hear that one. And Emma — so she recently, as you said, received the Young Alumni Excellence Award. And I thought I knew Emma, and I learned a few things about her in our profile of her. So, that's going to be an awesome conversation. Naviere Walkewicz 39:06 Can't wait to speak with her. And then Joe Bledsoe, class president for the Class of 2011, but also working with Gen. Shwedo right now. Wyatt Hornsby 39:13 That's right. He's a fellow up in the Institute for Future Conflict. And again, just a remarkable graduate, a fighter pilot, really looking forward to that conversation. end of year. One other that I'm really excited about, Matt Kuta, Class of 2005 co-founder of Voyager Space and a former fighter pilot, really looking forward to that conversation as well. Naviere Walkewicz 39:36 We have so many amazing grads to share stories with, and we could go down the list, but I think that's a good one just to, you know, whet the appetite. What do you think? Wyatt Hornsby 39:44 I agree completely. I'm just excited about Season 3 and we'll get this going. Naviere Walkewicz 39:49 Absolutely. Wyatt, this has been a blast. Thank you so much for joining me today. Wyatt Hornsby 39:53 And thank you for inviting me, Naviere. This was a lot of fun. Naviere Walkewicz 39:57 Absolutely, and we thank you for joining us as well. We can't wait to share our third season of Long Blue Leadershipbeginning this February. You can expect more compelling stories from outstanding USAFA graduates, each sharing unique perspectives and practical advice on overcoming challenges and inspiring others. With a mix of thought-provoking conversations and real-life experiences, Season 3 promises to engage, inspire and empower both seasoned and aspiring leaders alike. Visit longblueleadership.org for more episodes and to subscribe. Also, nominate a guest or send us your feedback at socialmedia@usafa.org, and finally, Long Blue Leadership is available on all of your favorite podcast apps. We can't wait to see you there. KEYWORDS leadership lessons, season highlights, guest perspectives, teamwork, perseverance, humility, service, season three preview, Gavin Marks, Commandant of Cadets, Nicole Malachowski, Thunderbird pilot, tick born illness, Lyme Disease, Coach Calhoun, Falcons Football, Madison Marsh, Miss America, Karl Falk, Bot Doc, B.J. Schwedo, Institute for Future Conflict, leadership journey, character development, personal growth, mentorship, resilience, future conflict The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
In Episode 10 of Long Blue Leadership, Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Burt Field '79, now president and CEO of the Air & Space Forces Association, discusses his leadership philosophy, and emphasizes the importance of continuous learning, effective communication, family, and the five core values by which he lives. Listen now! SUMMARY Burt Field, a retired Lieutenant General and CEO of the Air and Space Forces Association, discussed his career and leadership philosophy. He highlighted his upbringing as an Air Force brat, his academic journey at the Air Force Academy, and his early leadership roles. Field emphasized the importance of continuous learning, effective communication, and avoiding being an "asshole" in leadership. He shared impactful experiences, such as leading during the 2011 Japan earthquake and tsunami, and the significance of family support. Field also discussed the Air and Space Forces Association's efforts in advocacy, education, and family resilience, stressing the need for strong national security and defense. LEADERSHIP BITES Values-Driven Leadership: Burt shared his 5 core leadership values - integrity, fortitude, excellence, teamwork, and service. Defining your values and using them to guide your decisions and actions is crucial. Continuous Learning: Burt emphasized that as a leader, you can never stop learning, whether it's about your organization, industry, or even topics outside your expertise. Staying curious and open to growth is key. Empowering Others: Burt stressed that a leader's job is to empower and inspire their team, not try to do everything themselves. Recognizing and rewarding excellence in others is vital. Effective Communication: Burt noted that leaders can never communicate too much or well enough. Repeatedly delivering clear, consistent messages is essential for alignment and buy-in. Humility and Inclusivity: True leadership requires humility, giving credit to others, and making the organization successful. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK TAKEAWAYS Never stop learning. As a leader, you must continuously learn and expand your knowledge, even in areas outside your expertise. Define your leadership philosophy and values. Burt shared his 5 core values of integrity, fortitude, excellence, teamwork, and service. Having a clear set of guiding principles is crucial. Recognize and reward excellence. Identify and empower those who have put in the hard work to become experts in their fields. This builds a strong, capable team. Communicate effectively, repeatedly. Effective communication is critical, but leaders often underestimate how many times a message needs to be delivered clearly. Burt emphasized the importance of being inclusive, giving credit, and making the organization successful rather than yourself. Avoid toxic, self-serving leadership. CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to General Burt Field 01:52 Growing Up as an Air Force Brat 05:40 Choosing the Air Force Academy 10:26 Life as a Cadet at the Academy 19:09 Leadership Development During Cadet Years 23:15 The Integration of Women at the Academy 24:12 Influential Leaders in General Field's Career 28:28 Learning from Subordinates 34:15 Career Path and Leadership Philosophy 37:54 A Chance Encounter: Love and Military Life 41:13 Building Resilient Families in the Military 42:12 The Journey to Leadership: From Air Force to AFA 45:57 Empowering the Next Generation: Education and STEM 49:46 Leadership Lessons: Insights from Experience 5 FRANK KEYS TO LEADERSHIP SUCCESS "You can never stop learning. You have to learn. And whether it's leadership or anything else, you have to always learn." "Everything comes from your values. When I make leadership decisions, or when I look at how we're going to move forward, or what, how we're going to accomplish the mission, it should reflect those values in my decisions, how I act, how I from the biggest thing of creating a here's the strategy, or in objectives on on what we're going to accomplish, to the smallest things, like how I conduct a meeting." "If you want to be a really good leader, you need to be really good at something. So you got to put in the work when you're young to be really good and understand how hard it is to be really good at something." "You cannot communicate enough, and you cannot communicate well enough. So I use this example all the time. I come up with a message. I craft it, I think about it, I write it down, I practice it, and then I deliver it, and it's awesome. I was perfect. I nobody could have misunderstood me when I'm done with that, and I really think that I have hit the mark with maybe 20% I probably got to say that again, that way or differently, about another 10 or 15 times when I can barely stand to hear myself talk anymore, and I'm still not going to get everybody." "I'm going to give the credit and I'm going to take the blame. That's how you become a good leader." - Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Burt Field '79, October 2024 ABOUT GEN. FIELD BIO Lt. Gen. Burt Field, USAF (Ret.), is President and Chief Executive Officer of the Air & Space Forces Association, leading the Association's professional staff in its mission to advocate, educate, and support the Air & Space Forces. As CEO, he oversees operations and resourcing for AFA and its 113,000 members, including events, publications, and the Mitchell Institue for Aerospace Studies, the nation's only think tank dedicated to air and space power. A veteran of 35 years of Air Force service, Field retired from active duty in 2015 following his final tour, as Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations, Plans, and Requirements. Throughout his career, Field commanded a squadron, the Air Force Weapons School, three wings, a numbered Air Force, and a sub-unified command. A command pilot with over 3,400 flying hours in the F-16 and F-22, he served twice on the Joint Staff and completed a tour in the State Department as the military assistant to Ambassador Richard Holbrooke, the Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan. In his last assignment, he led policy and requirements decision-making for air, space, irregular warfare, counter-proliferation, homeland security, and cyber operations. Prior to that assignment, he served as the Commander of United States Forces, Japan, and Commander of 5th Air Force from 2010-2012 where he led the U.S. military response to support Japan during the earthquake, tsunami, and nuclear disaster of 2011. Following his retirement, he served as the Vice President of Strategic Planning for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, developing strategies that guided and contributed to over $5 billion in growth in a five-year period. He also managed a $500 million New Business Funds portfolio for independent research and development. Since 2020, he has been an independent defense consultant, served as a subject matter expert working with and mentoring Airmen at all levels, and a member of the Board of Trustees for the U.S. Air Force Academy Falcon Foundation. Field graduated from the Air Force Academy in 1979 and earned a master's degree in business administration from Golden Gate University in San Francisco. He and his wife, Lisa, have two sons, both officers in the USAF. - Bio image and copy credit: AFA.org CONNECT WITH GEN. FIELD LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK | AIR & SPACE FORCES ASSOCIATION ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates! TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS GUEST: Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Burt Field '79 | Host: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz 00:00 My guest today is Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Burt Field USAFA Class of '79, president and CEO of the Air & Space Forces Association. He spent 35 years in the Air Force, retiring in 2015 as deputy chief of staff for operations, plans and requirements. Gen. Field has held many positions of leadership throughout his career, including squadron command, the Air Force Weapons School and three wings. He has served as a command pilot with over 3,400 hours in the F-16 and F-22. He completed a tour in the State Department as the military assistant to Ambassador Richard Holbrooke. He has also served as the commander of United States Forces, Japan, and commander of the 5th Air Force from 2010 to 2012. In his post military career, he served as vice president of strategic planning for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics. He has been an independent defense consultant and has served as a subject matter expert, working with and mentoring airmen. He is also a member of the board of trustees for the United States Air Force Academy Falcon Foundation. Today, we'll talk with Gen. Field about his life before, during and after the Academy. We'll discuss his role in leading the Air & Space Forces Association. And finally, we'll ask the general to share advice in leadership development. Gen. Field, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Burt Field 01:23 Thank you, Naviere. Please call me Burt. Naviere Walkewicz 01:24 OK, yes, sir, Burt. Will do. And I will say that was quite an introduction. You have had an incredible and ongoing career. Burt Field 01:30 Well, frankly, and no false modesty, I was lucky to be in the right place at the right time and take advantage of the opportunities presented to me. Naviere Walkewicz 01:39 Well, I appreciate you saying that, and I think our listeners are really going to enjoy hearing about what some of those right places at the right time kind of look like. But here's what we do at Long Blue Leadership: We like to rewind the clock a little bit and start with Burt as a child. What were you like growing up? Where was home? Burt Field 01:56 Well, I'm an Air Force brat. My dad was a fighter pilot. I like to say his first assignment was the Korean War, flying F-86s and his last flight was in an F-4 over Hanoi. Now, didn't get shot down, but that was his last flight. So, I grew up traveling around both country and the world and went to a bunch of different elementary schools and then three high schools before I ended up at the Air Force Academy. Naviere Walkewicz 02:27 Wow. I can imagine some of our listeners have also been some kind of service brat. As I always say, I was an Air Force brat as well. Are you an only child? Do you have siblings? Burt Field 02:37 I have three sisters. I have one older sister and two younger sisters, which irritated me to no end when I was a kid, but now we couldn't be closer. Naviere Walkewicz 02:49 So did you get special benefits because you were the only boy of all the girls? Burt Field 02:53 Of course not. Now, their stories are a little different, but of course not. Naviere Walkewicz 02:57 Understood. And did they also serve as well. Burt Field 03:01 They did not. None of them did. My older sister's a doctor. My next down is an accountant and CFO, and the one below that is a bunch of different medical community things and a nutritionist. Naviere Walkewicz 03:15 Wow. So, you are the one who followed in the military family footsteps. Burt Field 03:18 I was, but interestingly enough, I never really thought about it growing up. My dad just happened to be in the Air Force. He just happened to fly airplanes. And you know, whoever you were, your dad was a doctor, lawyer, plumber, dentist, truck driver, whatever, and now let's go play ball. And that's pretty much the extent of it. But when I was in high school, I knew that I needed to start figuring out what I was going to do, because I'm pretty sure my dad wasn't going to let me just lay around the house after I graduated. And I was definitely afraid of being bored, and nothing really sounded good — doctor, lawyer, dentist, plumber, truck driver — none of it was good. So, I came into the house one day in my junior year, and I attribute this to the Air Force Association: The magazine was laying on our coffee table, and it was face down, and on the back was a picture of the F-15, which was one of the brand new airplanes that was coming out. And I looked down at it, and for whatever reason, it clicked, and I said, “That does not look boring.” And I went and talked to my dad, because I figured he might know how to do this. So, he did some research for me, and he said, “Well, to go to pilot training…" And this was 1974 and that's the wind down of the Vietnam War and letting a lot of people out of the Air Force, “…to go to pilot training, you have to be an Air Force Academy graduate, or distinguished graduate from ROTC.” Well, my dad had retired, or was about to retire, and we were going to move to Florida for my senior year, and I was going to go to the University of Florida, like everybody in my family did, except for two, and so I knew that the Air Force Academy would provide me an avenue, and the University of Florida would provide me an avenue to be a bellboy down in a Key West hotel when I graduated. Naviere Walkewicz 05:18 So you chose the Air Force Academy, of course. So, that's interesting. Forty-five years later, you are now the president and CEO of the Air & Space Forces Association, which was what kind of caught your eye in high school. Burt Field 05:34 It's really kind of amazing. And the editor of the magazine — they have a bunch of back issues at our headquarters building, and he found that magazine. Naviere Walkewicz 05:47 Oh my goodness, I hope that's framed in your office now. Burt Field It is. Naviere Walkewicz Oh, that's amazing. What a story. And we're going to talk more about that. I really want to hear more about that role, but let's stay in the childhood range a little bit. So you were going to go to the Air Force Academy. Were you already involved in sports? Was that something— Burt Field 06:06 Yeah, so, I played baseball growing up. We moved around a lot, so it was hard to play a lot of other sports. I did Pop Warner football, played basketball, you know, on teams growing up. And I was a good athlete but not a great athlete, and so I wasn't recruited for going to come here to the Academy. But I played football, I wrestled and played baseball until my sophomore year, when I blew up my shoulder and couldn't throw anymore. Then I just wrestled and played football for the rest of my high school career, and then when I came here, I just played intramurals until a friend of mine that was a couple years older was on the rugby team, and so he kind of said, “Hey, come on out, you'll like this.” And so it was the rugby club back then, and it was a way to get out of stuff in the afternoons when you're a freshman. So I came down and I played on the rugby team for a few years. Naviere Walkewicz 07:10 I have a lot of rugby friends, and it definitely is, it's a family, for sure. Burt Field 07:15 It is. And it was really that way back then. It was all local Colorado sports teams. You know, the guys who were 45 and over down to other colleges around the state. Naviere Walkewicz 07:28 Your extended family. Burt Field Right. Naviere Walkewicz So, speaking of family, how did your — I think I know how your dad felt about you wanting to come to the Air Force Academy. How about your mom? Burt Field 07:37 She was pretty proud of me. Both of them were mad because I only applied to one place. Naviere Walkewicz 07:44 So, it was here or a bellboy. Burt Field 07:48 It was here or a bellboy somewhere. But they were pretty proud of me, and they were really proud, obviously, when I graduated. Naviere Walkewicz So, you came into the Academy. You had a little bit of an idea of what to expect, because your dad had been the military, right? Burt Field 10:06 Well, no, nobody is prepared for the Academy. Naviere Walkewicz That's true. Burt Field I mean, your dad went to the Academy and… Naviere Walkewicz They were classmates. Burt Field And you were not prepared. Naviere Walkewicz That's true. Burt Field Because you are immediately thrown into the deep end of a very cold, murky pool and told to start swimming. But the interesting thing: I came out with a few guys from my local area, and the way we did it back then is, you told the Academy what hotel you were gonna stay at, and they came and picked you up in a bus and they drove you onto the Academy and dropped you off at the base of the ramp, and you jumped off the bus, and all your newfound friends started telling you all the things that were wrong with you personally, with your family, your genetics, your upbringing, and how you would never amount to anything ever in your entire life. And then they take you — I wasn't really good with authoritarian figures. Naviere Walkewicz 11:10 Well, I can imagine, with three sisters, you probably chose your own path, right? Burt Field 11:15 So, you can imagine — as we're most of my classmates. We all are kind of like that. So, I wasn't sure that this was for me, but it was 1975 and everybody had long hair. So as soon as I got my head shaved, I said, “Well, I'm staying here at least until I get my hair back.” Naviere Walkewicz 11:37 That was a good thing then. Burt Field 11:39 That kept me here. And so then I kept staying. But that first day was a bit of a shock, as it is with everybody around here. But, I have a great memory. I was standing in line getting something issued to me, and the guy behind me and I started talking, and he actually graduated from the high school that I spent my ninth and 10th grade in in Las Vegas, Nevada. His name's John Pickitt. And so we became friends, and he's the godfather of our oldest child, along with Tom McCarthy, who you met earlier today. Naviere Walkewicz 12:16 Wow. I mean, it really is… We talk about family a lot in our podcast, and family spans way beyond blood. Burt Field 12:26 Yep, it sure does, especially with graduates of the Air Force Academy. Naviere Walkewicz 12:31 Yes, 100%. Wow. So you jumped into that murky pool and making friends along the way. What was life like for you as a cadet? Were you really strong in your academics? I mean, obviously you were an athlete, because you were doing everything. Burt Field 12:45 I mean, everybody did that kind of stuff. So, I got good grades in high school, and I got good grades here, except for one semester. So, I was on the supt's list every semester except for one. That's just the way it was. Naviere Walkewicz That's amazing. Burt Field I would do it different now, if I had it to do over again, because I got on the dean's list by cramming instead of doing my homework. And so every young person that goes to the Air Force Academy, I tell them, “There's one way to success and happiness at the Air Force Academy…” I don't tell them this, not that they're going to be happy, because they're not. But I tell them, “Do your homework every night.” Naviere Walkewicz 13:32 That's right. I think there was a saying: “If you wait to the last minute, it only takes a minute, but then you get to see… Burt Field You really reap the results. Naviere Walkewicz 13:42 Exactly, exactly. Burt Field So, that's no different than a lot of my friends. And back then, you're pretty restricted to the Academy, especially your first year, and then gradually you get out more and more. So, it wasn't like we were out and about very much. Naviere Walkewicz Right. Burt Field We stayed around here. We worked out a lot. We played games, sports on the weekends, and that was it. Naviere Walkewicz 14:07 And were you 1 and 3? What was the squadron change like? Was it 2 and 2 back then? Burt Field 14:13 And so 1 and 3. So, I was in 35 as of Doolie, and the only squadron— 35 and 38, they're still together, but it was carpeted, and we had carpeting, and so we took a lot of heat from people just because of that. Naviere Walkewicz Because you had it nicer? Burt Field Yeah, then I went into 27 and graduated from 27. Naviere Walkewicz 14:38 OK, and your son is also a graduate from your legacy squadron, 27. Burt Field 14:42 He is. He graduated in 2008. Naviere Walkewicz 14:43 Love that legacy. Great. What a wonderful legacy. So your cadet time sounds like it was pretty pleasant, or… Burt Field 14:50 Oh yes, just like everybody's. Everybody leaves here with a love-hate relationship with the Air Force Academy and it changes over time from mostly hate to mostly love. So, that was no different with us. I had a group of great friends, both in my squadron and outside my squadron, from the rugby team and a couple other places. And so it was like — I tell everybody, 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th grade. Naviere Walkewicz 15:24 I love that. That's a great way to put that into an analogy, yes, because you're still developing. Burt Field 15:31 Classes, you know, five or six classes a day. I play sports after school. I go home and do homework or avoid homework and go to bed so I can't go out during the weeknights. Can't go out very often on the weekends. And, there you go. Naviere Walkewicz 15:45 That's right. That's very much like high school, absolutely. So we like to talk about how you developed as a leader, even early on. And so we're getting to know you a little bit better. While you were cadet, did you hold any leadership positions in particular? Burt Field 16:02 Well, I was the — what did I do? I did something as a third-classman. Oh yeah, chief of training? Or whatever. Naviere Walkewicz 16:11 Sounds like it could be accurate. Burt Field 16:12 Back in the day, the the guy that was in charge of training for the freshman. I was an ops officer when I was the, I mean, op sergeant when I was a junior, squadron commander when I was a senior. So nothing hugely out of the ordinary. I like that kind of role and that kind of challenge, but I wanted to stay inside my squadron. So, when I got offered a chance to, “Hey, do you want to be on a group staff or wing staff?” I declined. Naviere Walkewicz Tell me more. Why? Burt Field Because my brothers were my squadron. Naviere Walkewicz OK, I love that, yes. Burt Field So, I didn't want to leave that for six months or four months, or whatever the time period was back then. Naviere Walkewicz 17:05 So, leadership in your squadron, and this is interesting, and this is a good topic, because some of our listeners, some of the challenges that they experience in leadership is on a peer level, or maybe, you know, how do you lead someone that you're really close with? How do you earn that trust? So maybe you can share some lessons that you have learned about yourself during that time. Burt Field 17:24 Well, I always tell people that the hardest leadership challenge that we face is when you have no authority and you still need to lead, and regardless of what we say about cadet squadron commanders, you know, we can all think we're in charge, but we're not that in charge. And so what you had to do is you had to lead by influence and by doing the right thing. And so whether we agree with that, it's the right thing, because I don't want to do it, because it's no fun, because I'd rather do something else. Everybody knows what you have to do at the Air Force Academy on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, on the way through the week. And so we just went and did it. And I encouraged people to come and do it all with me, whether it's doing drill, whether it's playing intramural sports, whether, “Hey, it's your turn to be the referee for this season,” whether we want to go to these whatever it was. So you just encourage people to do that, and then you talk to people and try to empower them so that they can figure that out on their own, and then later pass that on as leaders themselves. Naviere Walkewicz 18:44 No, those are really great examples. And I think just leadership tidbits that some of our listeners can take, and it really is some of the best ways, just leading by example and then inviting them to join you on that, absolutely. OK, so your cadet career was, I think, really important to you, because it formed you, and it formed you like you said your brothers, because you were the last class of all men cadets together. So how did that translate? And if I may be so bold, you started having women cadets there while you're at the Academy as well. Can you share some of the dynamics of that then at the Academy, and maybe some of the stories that you saw of how that really evolved into a stronger Academy that we have today? Burt Field 19:26 Yeah, let me put some of this in perspective, and I'll start with a story. I get a large ration of crap from my friends that are in '80 and '81 that I'm really close with because of my role in terrorizing the women of the Class of '80, which I said, “Exactly, what role was that?” Basically, these guys considered us the source of all evil. My perspective was different, and it's just my perspective. When I talked to my classmates, most of them — I'm talking about most of them, not all of them — we were children that grew up and came of age in the late '60s and early '70s, which was basically that whole protest movement, grow your hair long, protest the Vietnam War, and we really didn't care that much that women were coming into the Air Force Academy, because most of us were smart enough to know that the only reason that women were not in my class and they were in that class was an accident of birth and the accident of when the legislation passed to do the right thing in the United States of America. So there's nothing special about being the last all-male class. There's nothing special about being the first class that had women in it, other than, you know, it was the end of one way of doing business and the beginning of another way of doing business. To your point, I think it makes the Air Force stronger. It certainly makes our Academy better. While they were here, the first semester, all the women were in one part of the state, in one part of the Academy over in Fairchild Hall. And they were only in 20 squadrons, so 1 through 20. Naviere Walkewicz In Vandenberg? Burt Field In Vandenberg, I'm sorry. So we're they were only in 1 through 20 the first semester, for whatever reason. Then they came the next semester to our squadron, and you know, well, one of them I'm still friends with, so, to me, it was a no brainer. I wish I was more profound on this. This is one of the things that my friends from later classes yell at me about. But I didn't consider it to be that big of a deal. I didn't, at the time, think that this is some big historical event and change in the Air Force or the military, or anything else that we could all maybe talk about better today than I could back then. So for me and my friends that I knew, it was not an issue. I don't think I treated women any different than I treated men, and I don't think I treated women or men badly, regardless of my role and their role at the Academy. Naviere Walkewicz I really appreciate that perspective. Burt Field Yeah, so, you know, bluntly, most of us just didn't care. Naviere Walkewicz 22:50 You were there just trying to get through the Academy, right? Burt Field 22:53 That sounds terrible, but, I mean, I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about social implications of race, sex, gender, however you want to put it. I was just trying to get through the day without getting yelled at, like everybody else. Naviere Walkewicz 23:12 Thank you for sharing that, because I think it's sometimes a question that people have, and it's really helpful to hear a perspective that really is, “We're all just trying to get through the Air Force Academy, we all come in, and we hope that we all graduate.” Burt Field 23:23 Yeah, and some of them, very impressive, had huge careers. You know, Susan Helms, just one of my heroes, frankly, as a person, as an officer, that have nothing to do with her role in space. That just makes me more in awe of her. But, you know, there's a lot of great, great people out there, and a lot of them are women. Naviere Walkewicz 23:49 Yes, thank you. Thank you for sharing that, and I appreciate that you said that. You know, Gen. Holmes is one of your heroes as well. Let's talk about some of those that maybe inspired you in leadership roles. It could be while you're a cadet, or maybe early in your career as an officer after you graduated. Maybe talk about some of those influencers. Burt Field 24:09 Well, I had some great AOCs. My freshman AOC was a guy that was a Fast FAC in Vietnam, and actually was the guy that gave me a ride in a T-37, which was fantastic and really solidified what I wanted to do. My sophomore and junior year, my AOC was not that guy. Naviere Walkewicz We learned from those leaders too. Burt Field We'll probably talk about leadership philosophy later, and if you'll remind me, my last bullet on my leadership philosophy partly came from him. And then my senior year, we had a great guy named Ken Lawrence that came in that several of us are still in touch with. And he was both a welcome relief and a great role model for us as we spent that last year here at the Academy, before we went off. I went out in the Air Force and my first two squadron commanders, the first one was a guy named Tiny West, 6-foot-5, 270 pounds, barely fit into an F-16, and taught me how to fly fighters. Naviere Walkewicz 25:21 I totally understand his call sign then. Burt Field 25:24 Just a great guy. A second squadron commander was a guy named John Jumper, who ended up being the chief of staff of the Air Force and is still kind of like a second father to me. Naviere Walkewicz Oh, wow. Burt Field Let's see. And then multiple people along the way that you know, from crusty old majors and young captains that taught me how to fly the F-16 and in what we called RTU at the time, now, FTU in how we kind of learn together. Because when my class showed up at Hill in the B course, we went into the 34th at the time, tactical training fighter squadron. We were their first class, and the high-time guy in that squadron with F-16 time had 30 hours. So they were teaching all of us second lieutenants how to do this. Went from there down to Nellis and served under Tiny and John Jumper. So, that was how I started. And there's lots of great people in that time frame that obviously I'm still in touch with, and taught us how to fly. There's my squadron commander in Korea, which was my second assignment, another great role model. And then just on and on. When I came back to Nellis on my third assignment, I worked for a guy named Sandy Sandstrom. Sandy was one of my RTU instructors, also, and we became really lifelong friends. And he and his wife, Jeannie, have sadly passed away, but we, Lisa and I keep in touch with both their children to this day. Yeah. But anyway, there's a lot of great leaders, both above us in squadron commander roles, and then you watch your fellow officers and brothers and sisters, and see and you learn stuff, watching them, how they develop relationships, how they train, how they identify what's important, how they communicate, how they focus, how they connect. All of those things are important, and you can learn something from everybody around you. And if you don't, you're probably missing out. Naviere Walkewicz 27:48 I appreciate that perspective. I think, especially as someone who is more experienced in leadership, the fact that you are looking to continue to learn and see what you can kind of pick up from those even that support you and serve under you. Can you share an example? Is there one that sticks out in your memory of someone that you're like, “Wow, that's something I really took back”? Burt Field 28:08 Are you talking about somebody that served under me? Naviere Walkewicz Mmm-hmm Burt Field Oh, yeah, so, there's thousands of these. I'll tell you two stories. So I'm a squander commander, and I had a friend, a very close friend of mine, who was a squadron commander, and one of his guys was coming to our squadron, and he said, “This is a great guy. You're going to love him. Really good pilot…,” blah, blah, blah. It's his second assignment. And so he shows up in the squadron and we have about four or five guys about that that time in their career, and they're ready to become flight leads, which is leading flights in the fighter community. And so I put him in without really thinking this through, and one of the other guys came up and said, “Hey, I need to talk to you.” And he came in my office, and he explained to me how I wasn't looking at everybody through the same lens and was probably missing some of the things other people were seeing. And I mean, pretty blunt, pretty focused, not yelling, and just a straightforward conversation. And I sat back and thought for about five seconds, and I said, “Holy cow, Bruce Fisher is totally correct. I have missed the boat on this, and I'm never going to do that again.” Naviere Walkewicz Wow. Burt Field And so that was one guy. The second example I have is in Japan when I was a 3-star general. I was there during the earthquake, tsunami and nuclear disaster, and it was a wild time. It started on a Friday. On Monday, so Friday was the earthquake and the tsunami. Saturday was the first explosion in one of the nuclear reactors. Monday was the second explosion in another nuclear reactor. On Monday, I also went up with the Japanese minister of defense and the head of their military to a place up near the epicenter, or the center of where the disaster area was, and they stood up, for the first time, a joint task force in Japan to take to take on the role of trying to work through all the things they had to work through. So we tried to land at the airport and could not. We tried to land at one of the air bases and barely could in a helicopter, in a helicopter. So I flew over Sendai Airport, where we couldn't land, and it was totally flooded, and it looked like when you tell your 5-year-old son to pick up his room and he shoves everything over into the corner, so there's trucks and cars and toys and giraffes and boxes over in the corner of the room and he says, “I'm good.” That is exactly what this airport looked like, except those were real cars, those were real cranes, those were real age equipment that was working on airlines, all swept away into the corner. So came back, and that night, met a guy named Rob Toth. Now we were getting a lot of people in to help, and Rob Toth had actually, he was the commander of the special ops group that was down at Kadena that we had brought up to Yakota. And he said to me, “Sir, my name is Rob Toth.” He's a colonel. And he said, “My guys have been up to Sendai, and I think we can open Sendai in about two weeks.” And I looked at Rob, and I said, “Rob, no way,” except I added a word in between “no” and “way.” And he said, “Sir, I know how you feel, like, I knew you'd feel like that, but just listen to me.” And I said, “No, that thing's not gonna be open until the summer.” And he said, “Sir, hold on. Let me tell you something.” Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm starting listening to him, I'm thinking, “OK, here's a special ops guy telling me how his experts think that they can go up and solve an enormous problem for us. They know how to do this. And I am telling him no, because I flew over it in a helicopter and it was flooded. Why don't you just ignore your opinion and say yes to a good idea?” Because all I have to do is say yes, and the worst that can happen is I'm going to be right. The best that can happen is he's going to be right and they're going to open the airport. Well, guess who was right? Not me. Naviere Walkewicz He was right. Oh, wow. Burt Field So, three weeks later, the first airplane, well, two weeks, a week later, the first airplane landed on it, and three weeks later, the first commercial airplane landed there. Naviere Walkewicz Wow. Burt Field Just say yes to good ideas. Naviere Walkewicz 33:14 I think that's a leadership nugget right there. Burt Field 33:16 And it's all from somebody that, you know, he had never met me before. I'm a 3-star general. He's a colonel. Took a lot of courage to tell me that, and keep persisting when I said, “Forget it,” because I was busy and didn't believe it, and I had just been there, so if you're not listening to people, you're probably not gonna make the best decisions. Naviere Walkewicz 33:38 That's an incredible story. Thank you for sharing that. Burt Field You bet. Naviere Walkewicz Oh, that's fantastic. So, your career was outstanding. I mean, I think you had the opportunity to really lead and impact a lot of lives by the time you put on your third star. Had you known that was your destiny? When you graduate the Academy you want to be pilot. We knew you went into the Academy to fly. Burt Field 34:01 To fly fighters. Naviere Walkewicz To fly fighters. Burt Field Actually, to fly F-15s. Naviere Walkewicz 34:07 OK, OK, so very specific. Burt Field 34:08 Yeah. So I ended up going to third lieutenant to Langley Air Force Base. And I kind of, I was fortunate enough, because I traded with a guy that was from California. I was going to George. He was from California. He had the Langley slot, so we switched, and I went out there because I wanted to fly in an F-15 to make sure I liked it, because it was after sophomore year, before junior year. And I knew that I wasn't all that fired up about the Air Force Academy at the time. It was not the most fun place I'd ever been. And so I wanted to ensure that this was something I really wanted to do. Fortunately, I went to a great squadron, great people. They welcomed us with open arms, and I flew three or four times, five times during that third lieutenant and just loved every second of it. Now, of course, I didn't fly the F-15, except in the back seat a couple times later on. But I was lucky enough to get an F-16 out of pilot training. So 1980, F-16, go through that RTU with those guys, and we're all learning this together and into a squadron where we're all learning this together. Cool part about the first squadron I was in is we had… there was a squadron, which means that we had 25 people in the squadron. So squadron commander, an ops officer, and 23 other folks. And when I went in there, 12 of us were lieutenants and classmates. Naviere Walkewicz Oh, my goodness. Burt Field And so it was really cool to go through that experience with people like that. But it's 1980, the Cold War is in full swing. We're pretty sure that we're going to be in a fight with the Soviet Union, and basically I didn't want to die in that fight. And so I figure what you need to do to not die is be the best there is. And I was went to work with a bunch of other guys that felt the same way, and so we helped each other. We competed with each other. We pulled people along. We got pulled along. And we all became really good at what we did. And it was just that drive to be really good at what was important — which was flying — that drove me, and that's what drove me to try to go to the Weapons School. That's what drove me to go back as an instructor. That's what drove me to train people to be the best that they could be, so that when we went to combat, we would all come back, because anybody can lead men and women into combat. I want people that lead them home. Naviere Walkewicz I'm so glad that— Burt Field Anyway, so that's what drove me. That's what drove me. You know, because I had friends that didn't come home. Naviere Walkewicz 37:27 So part of what you've shared with us today, and I think we're really appreciative of how much you're sharing, because I think it gives us a sense of really who you are, and the family aspect with your brothers, the family aspect with your extended family at the Academy, on your teams. When did your family come into play? Because I had the opportunity to meet your wife, Lisa, and she's lovely. When did she come into your life? Burt Field 37:54 Well, I like to tell everybody that I met her at a bachelor party, which I did. But, we were in pilot training at Willie Air Force Base in Phoenix, and somebody was getting married, and we're going to have a bachelor party, but it already required way too much planning, and somebody had to host it, and that meant somebody had to go buy stuff for it. And basically we just went down to where we went every Friday night, and that was the bachelor party. And I met her that night, and then we just started talking on the phone, and we started dating, and then we got married. And so we got married in 1981 and she's still putting up with me. Naviere Walkewicz 38:48 Wow. She's literally been part of your life since the Academy. Burt Field 38:53 Oh, yeah, so I married her a year and a half after I graduated, and so we have two sons, and both of those boys are in the military. My oldest son is a University of Florida grad. Naviere Walkewicz 39:06 So he did follow the family footsteps. Burt Field 39:09 But he's smart. He graduated with a high GPA, and anyway, he's a maintenance officer in the Air Force. And my youngest son is a C-130 pilot in the Air Force, and he's the 2008 grad from the Academy, and he's married to our daughter-in-law, Natasha. And right now, both David and Natasha fly C-130s for the Alaska Air Guard up in Anchorage in Elmendorf. Naviere Walkewicz 39:36 That's amazing. Burt Field So, it's the family business. Naviere Walkewicz So, dad, you and your son? Burt Field 39:39 Not only that, well, one of the reasons, when we bring up Lisa, when I met her, she said, we started talking, and I have short hair, because most people, have long hair. She goes, “Obviously, you're in the Air Force.” And she had told that to her roommate, and I said, “Yeah.” And she said, “Oh, my dad was in the Air Force.” And we said, “Where'd you all live, and what'd your dad do?” Well, her and my dad flew together and so stationed in the same places, sometimes at the same time. And when we went home and called our parents and said, “Hey, do you know this guy or this guy?” Without hesitation, both of them said, “Oh yeah, I know Dave.” “I know Burt,” and so they were in the other squadron. They didn't really hang out together, but they knew each other. So both my dad and my father-in-law were F-100 pilots and fighter pilots. And so Lisa is also an Air Force brat. So both of us are — we call ourselves nomads because we've never really lived anywhere longer than five years. Naviere Walkewicz 40:44 I used to say that, and now I actually can. But can you claim anywhere longer than five years now? Burt Field 40:52 No, getting close though. So I've been in five years, five years in a couple places, but never longer. Naviere Walkewicz 40:58 Oh my goodness, what an incredible story. Burt Field 41:00 Yeah. So anyway, this is one of the things we're doing in AFA now. And I think the Air Force is Air Force and Space Force are recognizing that if you want strong and resilient airmen and guardians, you need strong and resilient families behind them. And you need to have that kind of family dynamic that's supportive of what you do with your life and what the country is asking of you and your family to be all in and if we can work with the families to change that dynamic, to make sure that we're focused on building strong and resilient families, then the strong and resilient guardian and airmen will come out of that effort. So both the Air Force and the Air & Space Forces Association, that's part of what we're doing these days. Naviere Walkewicz Before I get into the last couple of questions I want to ask you, what is the best way that anyone that's listening can learn more about the Air & Space Forces Association? Burt Field Well, we can go to afa.org, simple as that, and do that. That shows you how to contact us. For another thing, you can join, which is what I would like you to do, and become a member, and then you get access to all of that information. And you can find out how to do that again, on that website. But joining gives you access to that information. It gives you access to what we do. It tells you where the chapters are that are close to you, that are similar-minded people doing similar things. And we have about 120,000 members right now. We have about 230 chapters in every state except Maine, and in several foreign countries where we have airmen and guardians stationed. Those chapters can do a lot of this work, whether it's working with your local government officials, with your state officials, like your congressmen or your senators, and it arms you with the things that you can deliver these messages with. It also arms you with how can I get access to these kind of programs that help with my family, my friends' family, the people I work with, their family. Where can I direct an airman when she needs some help? Where can I put a guardian in touch with somebody that can help him get through something that he's got a problem with? So, you have a lot of resources at your disposal that can help both you and your brothers and sisters you work with Naviere Walkewicz That is outstanding. So I mentioned two questions. I'll start with the first and then we'll come back after a short break. The first one is, some of our listeners aspire, at some point to be a C-suite executive. What's the coolest thing that you've done, or that's happened for you since being CEO? Burt Field Oh, man, that's a hard question. Naviere Walkewicz Well, take a minute to think about that. But first we're going to take a moment and thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. The podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio, and is available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Watch or listen to all episodes of Long Blue Leadership at longblueleadership.org. So have you had a chance to think about something cool that's happened since you've been CEO? Burt Field I would say that the coolest thing about this job is that you get some pretty good access. Because of what we try to do in support of the Space Force and the Air Force, I've been able to spend some time with the chief, the CSO and the secretary. And you know, the vice chief, the vice CSO, chief master sergeant of the Air Force, chief master sergeant the Space Force. So that part has been really interesting to me. Next week, I'm going to something with Secretary Austin, and so that that's kind of interesting. And then we do some work up on the Hill. And so I've been able to go up there and meet a few of the members up at the Hill. The good news, though, is that I knew a lot of those guys already, so, you know, because I'm old and. But it's still good to be able to listen directly from a leader on what he or she really is trying to communicate, as opposed to get it interpreted by somebody else or through some rumor or, “Here's why their vision doesn't match up with what I know we should be doing.” So, it helps us in our mission to kind of advocate for those strong forces when you know exactly what the leadership is thinking and what they're driving at. Naviere Walkewicz No, that's powerful, and that's transparency that you're able to bring to the members of your organization and all of their families. So, we like to leave our listeners with kind of leadership lessons, and I wanted to go back earlier in our conversation. You said, “Remind me to tell you about a leader that's shaped one of my bullets, maybe on how not to lead.” Or something to that effect. So what are your lessons of leadership that you want our leaders to take away today from you? Burt Field Well, so first off, you can never stop learning. You have to learn. And whether it's leadership or anything else— when I was in Japan during that disaster, I didn't know the first thing about nuclear power plants. Virtually nothing. I knew that there's some kind of nuclear reaction. They put something in water. It made steam power to turbine. Viola, you have electricity, period. There's a chance I might not even know that. So, I found a couple books that in the three or four hours a day that I didn't have work, I read so I could learn about nuclear power plants, the effect of nuclear radiation on the human body. What we can with withstand, what makes you sick and what kills you. So you have to always learn. And that goes double for being a leader, and you can never rest on your laurels. And so, I have been fortunate to be in a lot of different leadership positions and work for a lot of great leaders, most of them military, but some of them civilian as well, like Richard Holbrooke, a completely different leadership style than most military people. In fact, when I was working for Richard, my direct report was the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, Mike Mullen. And I talked with Adm. Mullen virtually daily, and my other virtual three-times-a-week conversation was with Dave Petraeus, who was running Afghanistan at the time, because of what a Richard's job was and they always want to know what he was thinking. So, it was interesting to watch all three of those who have three distinct leadership styles and learn from take the best from all of that. It was a learning experience. But the upshot of it is, having been exposed to people like that and being able to ask them questions about leadership, why they did things, helped shape my leadership philosophy. So, one of the things that I think everybody should do is kind of define what they think leadership is and have a leadership philosophy. And so, the way I look at leadership, it's, how how do you empower people? How do you inspire people? How do you get people to get the job done? Because you can't do it yourself. You're not going to win the war, you're not going to make all the sales, you're not going to get all the gross profit, you're not going to reduce all the expenses, you're not going to fight all the fights. You're going to be part of a team if you're going to be successful. So, how do you inspire that to happen? And how do you ensure that that team that you're building has the resources that they need? And resources come in all shapes and sizes. Some of it is equipment, some of it is money, some of it is the people that are in those roles? Do they have the education, the training, the experience and access to what they need to be successful? So that's what your job is, in my opinion, as a leader. And then how you go about doing that? You need to have a list of things that you do. So I start with values. You should have a set of values. For the cadets listening, and you're going to go into the Air Force, the Space Force, and if you cross commission into something else, every one of our services has a set of values, which are your values. Now you can have more, but your values include those. But at my stage of life, I have about five, and it's integrity, which everybody knows, and most people say, “Hey, that's when you do the right thing when no one is looking.” In the last four or five years, I added a second one to that, and I call it “fortitude.” Fortitude is when you do the right thing when everybody is looking. Then excellence. You know, from Excellence in All You Do. Teamwork and service. So those are my five values. And so when I make leadership decisions, or when I look at how we're going to move forward, or how we're going to accomplish the mission, it should reflect those values in my decisions, how I act, how I from the biggest thing of creating a here's the strategy, or in objectives on what we're going to accomplish, to the smallest things, like how I conduct a meeting. So, that that's the second thing. So everything comes from that. I think you need to be really good at something. If you want to be a really good leader, you need to be really good at something. So, you got to put in the work when you're young to be really good and understand how hard it is to be really good at something. Normally, when we “grow up,” in quotes, and become leaders of large organizations, there's a whole bunch going on in that organization that you will have little or no expertise in, but you know how to recognize excellence, and you know how to recognize effort that it takes to become excellent. And so you can look for those because you've seen it in yourself. So, that's the other thing. The next one is communication. You cannot communicate enough, and you cannot communicate well enough. So I use this example all the time. I come up with a message, I craft it, I think about it, I write it down, I practice it, and then I deliver it, and it's awesome. I was perfect. Nobody could have misunderstood me. When I'm done with that, and I really think that I have hit the mark with maybe 20%. I probably got to say that again that way or differently, about another 10 or 15 times when I can barely stand to hear myself talk anymore, and I'm still not going to get everybody. So, one of the things that you have to recognize as a leader is you're probably miscommunicating. So, you have to check and recheck to make sure that the message is going out the way you think it should be heard. So, communication is really important, and probably one of the biggest things that infects an organization is somebody misperceiving what somebody else is communicating, and then they get mad, and everybody's feelings get hurt, and on it goes. And we've all seen that. I told you about the “say yes to good ideas.” Naviere Walkewicz That was fantastic. Burt, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you would really like to leave with our listeners today? Burt Field I think we pretty much covered it, and I appreciate the opportunity to come on and chat with you and watch your act, because you're very comfortable doing this, and I need to take some lessons from you. Naviere Walkewicz Thank you so much for that compliment. And I must just say it has been a pleasure being on Long Blue Leadershipwith you. I can't wait for our listeners to hear more about your story and the way that you will, I think, affect great change for our Air and Space Force leaders. Burt Field Thank you, Naviere, it's really an honor to be on here and I appreciate the opportunity to share some of the lessons that I've been able to learn throughout my career, and also what the Air & Space Forces Association brings to the table, and why our cadets and our grads and all those out there who care about strong Air Forces, strong Space Forces, a strong national security and defense in the future. Naviere Walkewicz Thank you so much. KEYWORDS Air Force brat, leadership philosophy, Air Force Academy, rugby team, squadron commander, family dynamics, career progression, leadership challenges, communication importance, resilience, Space Force, education programs, family support, military service, leadership lessons Long Blue Leadership is a production of the Long Blue Line Podcast Network and presented by the United States Air Force Academy Association of Graduates and Foundation
Col. (Ret.) Nicole Malachowski '96 shares her insights on leadership, resilience, resurgence, perseverance, advocacy, and how she continues to serve her country, even after her military career. ----more---- A SHOW NOTE: There are two ways to learn from Col. Malachowski's leadership journey. If you're short on time, the audio version delivers the highlights of her stories in 40 minutes. Her leadership bites, takeaways, keys to leadership and transcript are below. The video version is 1:46:00 and is well worth the investment of your time. This version includes stories and details about the Colonel's journey she hasn't shared before. Click the "Play" button in the video above and settle in for a most enlightening conversation. SUMMARY Col. (Ret.) Nicole Malachowski '96 is a trailblazer who has broken barriers in both military aviation and advocacy. She was one of the first women to fly combat fighter aircraft, accruing more than 2,300 flight hours in six different aircraft and serving in multiple high-stakes missions, including Operations Deliberate Forge and Iraqi Freedom. But her story doesn't end there. As the first woman to fly with the U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds, a White House Fellow, and a key advisor on military and veterans' issues, Nicole's career has been defined by leadership at the highest levels. After being medically retired due to a Tick-Borne Illness, she turned her focus to advocacy, leading efforts to improve care for the wounded, ill, and injured service members through the Air Force Wounded Warrior Program. Now a passionate advocate for Tick-Borne Disease research, Nicole serves on several national committees and advisory boards, including the Department of Defense's Congressionally Directed Medical Research Program. NICOLE'S LEADERHIP BITES "Leadership is a journey." "The runway behind you is always unusable." "Don't think you have to be perfect to be a leader." "Believe those who believe in you." "Nobody wants to lead a scripted life." "Courage, compassion, and curiosity drive me today." "It's okay to admit when you make mistakes." SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | TWITTER | FACEBOOK TAKEAWAYS Leadership is personal - It's about understanding what motivates and drives each individual on your team, and tailoring your approach accordingly. Believe in those who believe in you - Mentors like Mick Jaggers who supported and encouraged Nicole were pivotal in her development as a leader. Don't write yourself or others out of the script - As General Matthews told Nicole, "Nobody wants to lead a scripted life." Embrace opportunities to dream big and take risks. Radical acceptance is key - When Nicole's military career ended unexpectedly, learning to accept the situation allowed her to move forward and find new purpose. Personal values guide your path - Nicole's core values of courage, compassion and curiosity have been instrumental in navigating life's challenges and reinventing herself. CHAPTERS 00:00 The Journey of Leadership 02:01 Colonel Malachowski's Early Life and Aspirations 06:01 Navigating the Air Force Academy 09:46 Leadership Lessons from Soaring 14:07 Overcoming Challenges in Pilot Training 17:50 Key Leadership Experiences in the Air Force 21:59 Becoming a Thunderbird Pilot 25:47 Transitioning to Civilian Life 30:02 Advocacy and New Beginnings 34:09 Personal Values and Resilience 37:54 Final Thoughts on Leadership NICOLE'S KEYS TO LEADERSHIP SUCCESS Leadership is a journey that requires growth and learning. It's okay to admit mistakes and seek help. Resilience is key to overcoming challenges. Personal values guide decision-making and actions. Mentorship plays a crucial role in personal and professional development. Failure is often the price of entry for success. Authentic leadership is about understanding and connecting with people. The importance of representation in leadership roles. Transitioning to civilian life can be a new beginning. Embrace opportunities and seize the moment. ABOUT NICOLE BIO Colonel Nicole Malachowski (USAF, Ret.) is a pioneering leader whose distinguished career spans combat aviation, military advocacy, and public service. As one of the first women to fly fighter jets, Nicole's journey included over 188 combat hours and multiple leadership roles, including F-15E Flight Commander, Instructor Pilot, and Flight Lead. She also made history as the first woman to fly with the USAF Thunderbirds. Throughout her career, Nicole demonstrated exceptional leadership, serving in high-level roles such as a White House Fellow and Executive Director of the ‘Joining Forces' program, where she advised the First Lady and Dr. Jill Biden on veterans' issues. After being medically retired due to a neurological Tick-Borne Illness, Nicole transitioned to a new mission: advocating for service members, veterans, and others impacted by chronic illnesses. She's a leader in the national Tick-Borne Disease community, serving on key advisory boards and government committees, and actively mentoring wounded veterans through the Air Force Wounded Warrior Program. Nicole is also a sought-after speaker, author, and consultant, sharing her experiences of overcoming adversity and breaking barriers to inspire the next generation of leaders. Her accomplishments include two master's degrees, induction into the Women in Aviation Pioneer Hall of Fame, and founding her own speaking and consulting firm. Today, Nicole continues to serve and lead, using her story to drive change and impact communities across the country. - Adapted from Col. Malachowski's bio at nicholemalachowski.com READ NICOLE'S FULL STORY HERE CONNECT WITH NICOLE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK | INSTAGRAM | NICOLE'S LINKTREE ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates! ABRIDGED AUDIO TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD THE UNABRIDGED VIDEO TRANSCRIPT HERE SPEAKERS GUEST: Col. (Ret.) Nicole Malachowski '96 | HOST: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 SPEAKERS Naviere Walkewicz, Nicole Malachowski Nicole Malachowski 00:11 You know, leadership is a journey. We're always put into positions that we're supposed to grow into. Don't think you have to be perfect to be a leader. It's okay to admit when you make mistakes, it's okay to ask for help, and it's okay to have failures, as long as you overcome them. And I like to remind folks at all levels of leadership, you know that the runway behind you is always unusable. All you ever have is the runway that's in front of you. Naviere Walkewicz 00:34 My guest today is Colonel Retired Nicole Malachowski, USAFA class of '96. Her career has been nothing short of extraordinary. Colonel Malachowski is perhaps best known as the first woman to fly as a pilot with the Thunderbirds, a singular distinction that set her path to reaching even greater heights. However, what you might not know is that her journey took an unexpected turn when she faced a sudden life altering loss of her place in the Air Force. The challenges that followed were extreme and personal, but through them, Colonel malikowski demonstrated a resilience and strength that not only transformed her own life, but also empowered her to help others with their own struggles. In today's conversation, we'll dive deep into the personal and professional journey that led her to transition to civilian life, the lessons she learned from the hardships she faced along the way, and how she now advocates for others, sharing the wisdom she's gained from the tough battles she's fought and won. We'll also take a look back at her time at the academy, her experiences as a pilot and the leadership principles that have guided Colonel malikowski, she has become a powerful voice for resilience, perseverance and leadership, and I'm excited to hear her insights on all of these topics. Colonel Malachowski, may I call you Nicole? Nicole Malachowski 02:34 Yes, please. Naviere Walkewicz 02:34 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership, and thank you for being here. Nicole Malachowski 02:37 Thank you for having me. Naviere Walkewicz 02:38 It's a pleasure. It truly is. I think one of the things that's so exciting for our listeners is really getting to know you. And you know, I think there's no question about who you are in the media, I mean, all the things you've accomplished, but some things that are most special is when we just sit down and kind of get to know you behind the scenes. Nicole Malachowski 02:53 Indeed, let's do it. Naviere Walkewicz 02:54 So let's go back to even before the Academy. Where did you grow up? Where are you from? And what were you like as a little girl? Nicole Malachowski 03:00 Sure, yeah. So I was actually born in central California, in a town called Santa Maria, and I was born, I consider very lucky, because I was born a woman in America, so there was a lot of opportunities, you know, afforded to me. Also very lucky to be born into a solid, you know, middle class family, you know, I was a kid who always had a roof over my head and food on the table, which makes it a lot easier, right, for you to seize opportunities and to be your best. And think it's important that we acknowledge that not everybody is born into that position. And so I was very, very lucky, I will tell you, I was definitely the loner, definitely an introvert. Always have been. A lot of people would be surprised by that, but I am a solid INFJ on the Myers Briggs, but as a young kid, just very quiet, kept to myself. I was very much a dreamer, very curious about things, so I loved to dive into books. I loved school. I was the kid that would take my lunch box, you know, out into the middle of the football field by myself and just stare up at the sky and the clouds moving by, and dream about things. I remember being in the Girl Scouts during junior high we moved down towards Southern California, where I learned about Civil Air Patrol, and then from there, in high school, we actually made a big move to Las Vegas, Nevada. I continued my time in Civil Air Patrol as a cadet, but also joined the Air Force Junior ROTC at my high school. Naviere Walkewicz 04:16 I'm just drawn to this visual of you with your lunch box in the middle of the football field looking up at this guy. So were you dreaming about flying? Nicole Malachowski 04:24 I was, you know, I went to an air show when I was five years old, and I remember seeing an f4 phantom fly by, and it flew by so low, and it was so loud, I had to cover my ears. And I remember, like, my chest rumbling, you know, the smell of jet fuel. And I remember thinking, man, like there's a person in there, like, I want to be, you know, that person. And I had come from a family that, you know, honored and respected military service. So both of my grandfathers were career military my father had been drafted into the army during Vietnam. So I knew that, like, you know, military service was honorable and noble and good. And when I discovered that that was a military plane. I remember as a kid putting one plus one is two. I'm like, wait, you can fly jets and serve in the military. That's what I'm going to be. And wow, that was around 1979 and that's right, there are no boundaries on things. So looking up at the sky, watching planes, and of course, in high school in particular, moving to Las Vegas, Nevada, because Nellis Air Force bases there. So, I mean, I would watch the red flag launches and watch how those jets fly. And of course, I would see the six ship of Thunderbirds flying by as a kid, thinking that was pretty cool. So to be honest, I set my sights on the Air Force Academy in elementary school. Naviere Walkewicz 05:34 Oh, my goodness. Nicole Malachowski 05:35 Yeah. So when I was five and decided to be a fighter pilot, you had decided, I mean, I was maniacally, maniacally focused. I did not have a backup plan. I am so lucky that things worked out because I have no idea what else I would have done, you know, with my career, but I remember in sixth grade, I wrote a letter to the Air Force Academy. They responded. The admissions office responded with a personalized letter letting me know I'm kind of young to apply now, but here's the application process. They sent me a whole bunch of Air Force Academy swag, and that was it sixth grade. I was going to the Air Force Academy, goodness, when you were actually old enough to apply. Now to the academy. Naviere Walkewicz 06:13 Let's talk about that process. What was it like for you? Well, I mean, I think it was more exciting than anything else. I told you. I had stayed maniacally focused. I was very particular and organized about prioritizing how my application would look. So of course, I strove to have the good grades, and obviously stayed involved with the activities like Civil Air Patrol or participating in sports like running cross country and track, as well as doing, you know, community service type activities. So I was indeed focused on making sure that application looked good. I remember the thing I was probably the most nervous about were those interviews with your, you know, senators and your representatives, and wondering if I was going to be able to interview well. So I was, you know, putting my best foot forward. And I remember my senior year, it was approximately October, maybe coming up on November about this time, right? And I went to the mailbox to get the mail, and I had the application had already been in, right? Because everything was done before the fall, and I saw this giant envelope from the Air Force Academy. And I thought, No way, because it's only like October or November. And I started shaking, and I opened it right there at the mailbox. I had to go up the street. I opened it, and I feel bad because I think I littered like the envelope all over the street, but I remember opening it up, and the first line was, congratulations. You know, you've been accepted to the class of 1996 and I instantaneously just started crying and running as fast as I could back to my house. Naviere Walkewicz 07:38 Had you been to the Academy prior to the acceptance? Nicole Malachowski 07:41 No, never stood a foot on at all. And I remember when my parents came to drop me off for for Jacks Valley and everything basic training, when we came up over that hill, over Monument Hill, and you can see the chapel and the kind of imposing, you know, white buildings on a hill, I was like, Oh, wow, that's extraordinary. And I was really just excited. People ask, were you nervous that day? I was not, because I was just so happy that this, to me, was like the first step of the rest of my life. It was that first real step towards this goal of serving my country, you know, like people my family had, and getting to fly jets while I do it, how cool is that? I don't remember any highs or lows. I do remember I got my enjoyment becoming a cadet, you know, soaring instructor pilot. Naviere Walkewicz 08:28 So let's talk about that. That is a, kind of a key leadership role as well. Nicole Malachowski 08:32 Yes, that was my leadership role. So my senior year, I was the cadet soaring squadron commander. Oh, let's talk about Yes, yes. So obviously, between freshman, sophomore year, I signed up as soon as I could, you know, to take soaring, and when I discovered that you could actually apply to be a soaring instructor, and I remember that was a really like growth experience, because it's one thing to be able to fly a glider, it's another thing to be able to try to teach somebody how to do that. And I really, I I give a lot of credit to this, you know, sorry, instructor upgrade program teaching me the skills of, how do you communicate something technical? How do you communicate something hard, this idea that you need to be able to communicate it not just in one way, but two or three different ways, because each of your students is going to come at it with a different skill set or a different perspective or a different personality that responds to different type of teaching. So learning how to tailor your instruction and your care and your leadership to each individual was something I learned here, you know, as a sophomore, this idea that I would carry that on into my career as a leader and, you know, ultimately into being, you know, a fighter squadron commander. This tailored leadership actually started here, but soaring is what was my respite. Soaring is where I refilled that tank. It's one thing to be successful yourself. It's a whole different level to teach somebody else to be successful. Naviere Walkewicz 09:55 So you knew you enjoyed Well, obviously you enjoyed the flying? And soaring, the leadership aspect, I think, was something that was new to you then. Or had you done that in Civil Air Patrol? Did you also have leadership there? Nicole Malachowski 10:06 Yeah, I had leadership experience in Civil Air Patrol, but I think this was a different level. You know, my senior year becoming the cadet soaring squadron commander, it was really cool, because not only were you trying to take inputs from your peers and your colleagues on things we could improve or do differently, you know, valuing the other cadets opinions. But how do I translate that to leadership? How do I go now and talk to the real officers, the active duty officers in charge, and go, these are maybe resources we need, or things culturally, you know, that we need to change, and that was hard for me, you know, because I had never done that before. How do you advocate for your peers in a way that's understood, you know, by the active duty leadership. So that was really something that, again, would become important in my military career, because when you're put in a leadership role, you know, it's about, I think, advocating for the people who you are, you know, accountable for and responsible to, yes, and so how can you do that and do it in a way that it's received? Well, yes, you know, by the leadership above you, Naviere Walkewicz 11:07 After you graduated from the Academy, you went on to pilot training. Nicole Malachowski 11:11 I was slated to go early right after graduation, and I was a casual status Lieutenant flying gliders. Of course, went out for a jog and broke my ankle. So this would be my first kind of little, little detour. And I ended up, they offered me to go, to go to shepherd a lot later, or as soon as my ankle was healed, I could go to Columbus Air Force Base Mississippi right away. And I said, I gotta go, like, I cannot sit around and wait. I want to go to Columbus Air Force Base Mississippi. And everyone's like, what you're going to turn down, like, the chance of going to fighters to like, have to fight for it at Columbus. I like, I can't be stagnant. I need to go. So showed up at Columbus Air Force Base Mississippi, and again, really grateful for all of the flying experience that I had. I think that just those foundational procedures, you know, foundational knowledge, was vital to being a little more comfortable than other people that didn't have that experience. It was easy to be slightly ahead of the curve early on, but as I like to tell people, I fell flat on my face across the starting line my second check ride in pilot training, I failed. Now, pilot training at that time was about a year long. There were about 10 check rides, and at that time, failing one check ride, statistically, traditionally, would take you out of the running for graduating high enough to be a fighter pilot. This was devastating to me, and I remember even having fleeting moments that night of like, maybe I should just quit. Now this is, of course, the youth in me, right? I'm a 21 year old kid, and I'm just getting a little bit emotional about it, but if I can't be a fighter pilot and I just knock myself out of the running, I should quit. And I didn't call my parents because I didn't want to tell them I was too, like, embarrassed maybe, to say, like, hey, my dream that you all have supported is about to come to an end, because I messed up, and I made a really junior varsity mistake. And so I called my mentor, Sue Ross, and then she just let me talk, and she's like, are you done? And I'm done. And she goes, Well, are you going to do that again tomorrow? And I said, Sue, how am I supposed to get back in the jet tomorrow? How do I face my peers? I've been telling them I'm going to fly strike Eagles this whole time. Like this is so embarrassing. What if I fail again? What if I fail again tomorrow? And I remember, she talked me off the ledge, man, you know, and I came away. I came away with that conversation, realizing that indeed, I think I rarely believe failure is the price of entry for achieving something great, because if you have the right mindset, you come away with failures, I think a lot more committed, a lot more dedicated, a lot more focused, and I think a lot more humble, and all of those characteristics and traits are good things. You know, it worked out for me, and I did finish fourth in my class, and I had an extraordinary class. It was a time of great cultural change in the Air Force, because we were the first group of women to come through pilot training with the option of flying fighter aircraft. Naviere Walkewicz 14:04 So talk about your time while you're in uniform. You had some key leadership positions. You were squadron commander. Can you share some of your stories with that and maybe even some high points and some lessons learned, where you as a leader felt that maybe, maybe it was a low point or a failure, but you grew from it? Nicole Malachowski 14:20 Sure, sure. Yes. I mean, I had so many, you know, different fun assignments. You know, obviously when you're in your first fighter squadron, I got out at RAF Lake and Heath out there in England. I mean, what a rage right to be a lieutenant flying strike Eagles at 500 feet, 500 miles an hour, up Loch Ness, to live in the dream, you know, becoming in my second squadron, which was at Seymour Johnson Air Force Base, becoming a, you know, flight lead and upgrading to instructor pilot. Very nervous to go into the instructor pilot upgrade. I went in very young. In fact, when I got to that squadron, the weapons officer said, hey, I want to put you in the instructor upgrade. And I was like, no. Away like I am not ready for that. I am not good enough for that. And I was new to the squadron. There were people technically older and more experienced than me. They were in the queue, and he wanted me to jump the queue, a guy by the name of Michael Jaggers, call sign, Mick, I'm still friends with him to this day, and I remember I avoided him. I avoided him like the plague because I did not want to upgrade to instructor. And I remember saying, Mick, I just am not sure I can do this. And he looked at me, and he said, it's not your job to get through it. It's not your job to get through it alone. It's my job. It's my job to ensure you have what it takes and what you need. It's my job to teach you to be a good instructor. So your success is going to be my success. I will not let you fail. What a glorious man, what a wonderful instructor. And the lesson learned here to people is this, believe those who believe in you. Believe those who believe in you. Naviere Walkewicz 15:52 It's true, though it really is. And those people, I think sometimes your trajectory can change or just like, accelerate, because someone gave you a little bit of courage that you just needed that little piece. Nicole Malachowski 16:03 And to learn as I gained experience and credibility how to replicate that and how to be that person for other people, right? Because it's about turning around. It really is about lifting up other people. Your success isn't your own. It's how can you help other people achieve the best of themselves? And that's what you know Mikey and Mick did for me. And of course, the rest, you know, being history, because then I had the credentials I needed to apply to be a Thunderbird. And then from the Thunderbirds, I could become a commander, yada yada, you know, but being an instructor pilot, again, in the F 15 e how extraordinary to teach a brand new pilot or WSO, not only to fly the aircraft, to how to employ it as a weapon system and then to turn around and go to war with them. There's no bigger honor. There's nothing, I think, more humbling than that. Naviere Walkewicz 16:49 Can you share something that maybe you learned from the perspective of how to lead better? Nicole Malachowski 16:55 So let's be honest, when you go into a fighter squadron, things are a little bit one note, right? I mean, we all are cut from a similar cloth. We all kind of have similar personality traits. You know, you don't want your fighter pilots any other way, putting the effort into understanding what drives and motivates individuals. So learning at that age how to put your arms around everybody that you're responsible for, not just the ones that maybe are easiest to lead, or maybe the ones you're the most comfortable, you know, interacting with as a leader is, how do I figure it out? You know, there were some guys that, if I were to call them on up to the front of the room, in front of the whole squadron, to compliment them on something they did, maybe a check right they had. Or this goes for my fighter squadron command as well. You know, they would love it, right? Because it it was how they were extrinsically motivated, and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. If that's what they need, and that's what you need to do to get the best of their strengths and best of their commitment go for it. And then were others that low? If I were to bring them in front of their peers to compliment them, they would shut down and never talk to me for the rest of the you know, their assignment. And so that's where I would take the time to write a handwritten note, maybe put it on the seat of their Humvee, or put it in their helmet, you know, in the fighter squadron. And then when they'd see me walking down the hallway, we give the knowing nod that they were acknowledged for their awesome, whatever it was, and we would move on. Naviere Walkewicz 18:13 Yes. And so what I'm hearing, in a really, kind of summarizing way, is leadership is personal. Nicole Malachowski 18:19 Very. it's all about people and it's about authenticity and connections. Naviere Walkewicz 18:25 So speaking about personal and authenticity, I'd be remiss if we didn't talk about your journey to the Thunderbirds. Nicole Malachowski 18:31 I knew this was gonna come. Naviere Walkewicz 18:32 It's here, and so you know it is. It's a different time. There was no woman Thunderbird pilot before you. Nicole Malachowski 18:40 I grew up in Las Vegas, Nevada, so the Thunderbirds were part of the backdrop. I knew that the Thunderbirds, you know, as a kid, were special and were considered, you know, elite. And kind of going back to my personality, I love being told that, you know, you can't do things. And the truth is, people laugh at this, but the truth is, when I applied to be a Thunderbird, I did it because the way my career was going, I wasn't ready to, I wasn't on timeline to go to ide yet or to go to ACSC, but I had, like, a weird year kind of gap, and I didn't they didn't really know what to do with me. I didn't know what to do with them, and my husband was going to be PCs in the Nellis. This is, like, a true story. Wow. I know people want me to say, well, I had this big, long dream when I was Thunderbird. Also thought about it was always in the background. Is something that, you know, wasn't, was an option. And I, you know, because of a lot of people who put a lot of effort into me, I was indeed qualified, you know, to get in there and to give it a try. But it wasn't something that was like an ultimate goal. I did not know they had not had a woman Thunderbird pilot when I applied, did not even occur to me. Remember, I had never known an Air Force without women fighter pilots in it. That's right, that's and we had all achieved the age where we had acquired the hours needed, and it just lined up with the timing. And I'm like, Well, that would be kind of fun and different to do. And. So I always tell people, you know, when you get those butterflies in your stomach that says, This could be something cool, something different, that is your cue to go do it. Don't worry about what anybody else is saying. And so, you know, I was able to put that application in. And in fact, I was I put that application in, and when I went and told everyone I was going to apply, generally speaking, people were really tickled and happy and happy and supportive. But as the days went by, people started to think about it. I heard, you know, it's too hard to be a Thunderbird, you probably won't get picked. I mean, statistically, no one gets picked to do that. They've never had a woman before. Are you sure you want to do that and this and that? And I remember the day I turned my application in. This was back when you still had hard copies, and you still had to mail them, okay, 2005 took it over to the group commander's Chief of Staff, slid it across the desk. I was super nervous, because the voice in my head was like, Nicole, other people become Thunderbird pilots, not you. That was the other people become Thunderbird pilots, not you. What are you doing? Why are you risking this? But I kept thinking, what's the worst that's going to happen? I don't get picked, like most people don't get picked, and I go back to flying strike Eagles with my community, which I love, like life is good, right? Either way, it's a win, win. So as I slid that application across the desk, said, I'm applying to be a Thunderbird. Here's my application. I remember the staff looked up to me and said, you know Nicole, It's hard to be a Thunderbird. You know Nicole, you probably won't get picked. And the exact words were, you know Nicole, they've never had a woman before, and the colonel can only stratify one person in that moment. Let's, I think there's leadership lessons here, because this person was not trying to be mean, right? What was coming out was, I think the unconscious bias all of us have to check ourselves on every day at all ages. I think what was coming out were the cultural paradigms of the Air Force at that time. And I think what was coming out, you know, were other people's expectations about what I should or shouldn't be doing. And in that moment, the truth is, I grabbed my application and I took it back, I went across to the officers club and grabbed a beer like any good fighter pilot would, and I remember thinking, thank God I didn't put myself out there. Thank God Nicole, you know, now I'm a 30 year old captain, so I'm still a young person, you know. Thank God you didn't risk failure. Who are you to think you could be a Thunderbird, silly girl, right? And in that moment, the weirdest thing happened. And I tell this story on stage, sometimes the door opened to the officers club, and in walk the Wing Commander, Brigadier General Mark Matthews, for whatever reason, comes over and starts talking to me. Now, this is weird, right? I'm a captain. He's a brigadier general. I don't know why he was talking to me, you know, like walking amongst the people that day, or, you know, just making small talk. And so I'm trying to hold my own talking to him a little bit nervous. It's a little you're probably still feeling a little bit down from totally down. And in that moment, over walks my squadron commander, a wonderful man by the name of Dan Debree. His call sign was, trash. Get it? Trash, debris. Trash. Walks over, super excited, very supportive of my application. And he's like, Hey, General, did you know Nicole's applying to be a Thunderbird now? Man, I mean, you could have slowed down time. I was like, ixnay on the underbird Fae like, this is terrible. Neither of these guys knew that I had removed my application. And Dan's standing there all proud. He's my squadron commander supporting me. A great man again. And Mark Matthews looks down at me, general Matthews, and he goes, that's great. How's your application going? And I'm like, I looked at him, and here's what happened. I said, you know, sir, it's hard to be thunder, but I probably won't get picked. They haven't had a woman, so I don't want to waste anybody's time. Naviere Walkewicz 23:11 Oh, you said, I said it. Nicole Malachowski 23:13 I said all of it. And this is kind of an embarrassing story to tell, but I'm just this is the truth, right? This is the vulnerable truth of how this happened. And and he looked down at me, and I will never forget this. And I hope folks listening who have big dreams and gnarly goals remember this. He looked down at me and he said, Nicole, actually. He said, Fifi. My call sign, Fifi. Nobody wants to lead a scripted life. And he walked away and left me in extraordinarily uncomfortable silence. And those words nobody wants to lead a scripted life have become my life's mantra. Every time I get the knot in my stomach that says that dreams too big or that idea is too innovative, don't rock the boat, I remember what he said, because those words, like they lifted the weight of the world off my shoulders, told me it was okay to dream big. It was okay to buck the status quo. It was okay to be different. He was telling me, it's okay to risk failure in pursuit of personal professional growth, and it's not so much. I think he's telling you and me to write ourselves into the script. What he was saying was, don't ever write yourself out of the script. And as leaders and teammates, don't you ever write anybody else or their wild ideas out of the script, either. And so nobody wants to lead a scripted life. And I, I hope what you're hearing in these stories, and maybe what I'm realizing just chatting with you, is these little turning points, these pivot moments where these really important people, the mark Matthews, you know, the Mikey whiteheads, the Mick Jaggers, the Sue Rosses, the Kim Jamesons, they all come at that right moment. You got to be open to that you know, and and how important your actions and your words are to making or breaking somebody else's journals. Naviere Walkewicz 24:48 Yes, yeah, so you took that application back. Nicole Malachowski 24:52 Sure did. Sure did. I did not get the number one stratification from the colonel, but I did from the general. And. So that worked out for me. When I really started thinking about, I think I was putting myself back in the kid in high school with her brown bag lunch out on the football field watching the Thunderbirds fly over that can tend to see that those six jets smoked behind in red, white and blue, screaming over your high school. You know, you wanted to be a fighter pilot. Since you're a kid, I'm staring up at them, thinking, there's people up there. You know, I want to be one of those people. This idea that there would be a little kid watching me as a Thunderbird pilot, and maybe someday go, maybe I could fulfill whatever my dream is. Maybe I could join the Air Force too, a little girl going, maybe I could be a fighter pilot someday. And I think the gravity and the weight of the mission of the Thunderbirds started to really impact me, because it had indeed impacted me as a kid, and the idea that I could be a part of that. And I think the other thing was, and maybe this sounds cheesy or trite, but it's not, you know, sitting at Al UD, drinking my one beer at three in the morning after I land from my night combat mission, sitting with all these great Americans from all over the country, from every different background, and thinking, I could go tell their story, and that's what Thunderbirds get to do. You get to represent the world's greatest Air Force and tell the stories of these airmen who are out there getting the job done, those tech piece those crew chiefs, you know, the folks that are working at the tower, the folks in the food hall, our medical professionals, the cyber the whole thing, right? And all of a sudden it got really exciting to me, like I could go out there with this team, with this mission, and we could represent our friends with the honor and the dignity and the respect that they deserve. And I think those two things kind of collided together, and I started getting really excited about excited about this Thunderbird thing. Ended up back at Lake and Heath painfully excruciating waiting for the vinyls. And when we got back from Iraq, they give you the kind of three weeks of downtime. My husband was a gracious man and took me on a Cruise of the Baltic Sea. We're sitting in our cabin in Oslo Norway, and the phone in the cabin rings. The phone in your cabin, phone in my cabin rings. It's about 10 o'clock at night, but full sun outside, because it's summertime in Norway. And immediately we looked at each other, and both of our heart we've talked about this, both our hearts sank, because why does a phone call come to military people on vacation? It's not never it's never good. Yeah, and I was a flight commander at the time. So was he we immediately thought something disastrous had happened, an aircraft accident, a death, you know, a car accident. And we let it ring another time, and he's like, You need to pick it up. And I picked it up. And I said, Hello. And they go, is this Captain malikowski? I said, Yes. And they go standby for the commander of Air Combat Command. Oh my gosh. And I looked at my husband, and I was like, What is going on? Well, I knew this was the consolation call. There was, I think, I think there was five or six of us who had made it to finals. Three people were getting good position. The other were not. And it is tradition that the commander of Air Combat Command calls all six, coach is very gracious and professionally courteous. And so I thought this was my consolation call. So I'm waiting, and it feels like an eternity, and all of a sudden I hear Stevie there, and I said, Yes. He goes, Ron keys which was General. Ron Keyes, Commander, Air Combat Command. I'm a young captain. I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. And I go, sir, how are you? He goes. We have a pretty amazing Air Force that we can find you in the middle of the Oslo Norway fjord, don't we? I said, Yes, sir, we do. He goes. Well, I know you're on vacation, so I want to keep it simple. I want to offer you a job. And I said, Yes, sir. He goes. How would you like to be Thunderbird number three? And I said, I stayed as professional as I could in my voice, but I was looking at my husband gesticulating, jumping up and down like you're not gonna believe I said, Sir, I would absolutely love that. He goes, Okay, great. You're the next Thunderbird number three. Look forward to watching you fly and get back to your vacation. And he hung up the phone. You know, the Thunderbirds are, at that time, 125 people from 25 different career fields who came together to make that mission happen. Wow, never been in a squadron with that many high performing, highly motivated people in my life. I am still dear friends with my crew chief, still friends with people on the team. It is such a crucible experience. It's a one off, you know. Well, fast forward. Finish up the Thunderbirds. I get a phone call. He goes, it's Viking blurling. I'm like, How the heck did this guy that I met once get my phone he goes, Hey, when I was an Air Force officer, a young fighter pilot, I did acse as a White House fellow, and I think you should be a White House fellow. I said, Well, what's the White House Fellowship? So he explains it to me, and I'm like, there is no way I will get picked as one of 12 to 15 people across the United States, across all career fields, including civilians, to be a White House fellow. Colin Powell was a White House fellow. I am not a White House fellow. This is ridiculous. So I entertained his conversation. He says, I want you to think about I'm gonna call you back tomorrow, same time. Boom. Phone rings. Viking borling, you're applying to be a White House fellow, no, sir. I'm not. Third day ping. Phone calls. You're applying to be a White House fellow. Anyways, I applied to be a White House fellow. Went through that whole process, semi finals, regional panel interviews, and then the finals, and was selected to be a White House fellow. I got assigned outside of the White House to the US, General Services, Administration, yes, like, it was exciting. And I was like, this is where the nuts and bolts happen? Well, the GSA also runs what's called the office of the president elect. Between election and inauguration, the incoming president and their team needs to have a place to get ready, like our current incoming administration is doing. It's a physical office building where they make decisions about cabinet secretaries, or they get their intelligence briefings and all of that. Guess who got put on the presidential transition support team to be up close and personal for the peaceful transition of power between George Bush and Barack Obama? Wow. The extraordinary part about the White House Fellowship was most of the fellows were civilian, and I had been nothing but military since I was 17 years old and showed up at the Air Force Academy. So to be able to look at leadership and teamwork and professionalism from a completely different lens, to see how people from the education field or from healthcare would solve a problem was fascinating. You know, we in the military can look to solve problems a very specific way, and a lot of us are a little bit very specific in how we do it. And so to learn how to look at problems and solve things in different ways was extraordinary. Naviere Walkewicz 31:23 So your career trajectory is just really incredible. Because you've kind of talked about how you've been put in these places based off of circumstance, but then when you get there, it's all about, how do you make the most of it, seize the opportunity and see what's available. Nicole Malachowski 31:38 A lot of times, you know, as human beings, we go, Well, I don't have this, or I can't do this right now, or not resource this way, man, find a way. Yeah, ask yourself the right question. What is it I can do right now with what I have? Naviere Walkewicz 31:49 Well, that makes me feel like that's a really good lead into kind of what circumstantially happened to you, unexpectedly. Yes, so you're medically retired from the Air Force. Do you want to talk about how that happened? Nicole Malachowski 32:00 And sure, sure, you know, the the greatest honor of my career was serving as the commander of the 3/33 fighter squadron. I enjoyed that, and I remember also during that time being physically fit, mentally fit, spiritually fit. And I remember feeling ill in the summer of 2012 like I had the flu, but within three months, I started having severe neurological problems, so things like word finding, slurring my words, inability to read write, inability to type, dropping things with my right hand, dragging my right leg, getting lost, driving home, and I remember going into a grocery store and having a complete panic attack because I didn't know what a grocery store was or why I was in there so very Alzheimer's dementia like symptoms. So in fact, what was happening was my brain was becoming inflamed with an infection. So over the next four years, my symptoms would wax and wane. They would come and go, they would change in severity. Obviously, I could no longer fly. I was grounded, but they said, Hey, you can stay in the Air Force. You just can't fly. And I said, that's great, because honestly, I just want to lead airmen. Lead airmen and be a part of a team. So, you know, there's a lot of details, you know, to this story, but my symptom list was like 63 symptoms long, covering every system in my body. And so they cast the net wide, and that's where tick borne illness came into it. And at that time, I was in a wheelchair. I couldn't talk. My husband was wheeling me around, and I remember when the doctor said, we come on in. We have the diagnosis. We know what's wrong with her. The doctor says she'll never fly again. And my husband said, Well, how long until she's better? And she goes, Well, treatment is going to take at least two years. And it was in that moment, it wasn't that I wasn't going to fly again, that hurt. But when they said two years, I knew that the military was going to medically retire me, I knew it was over, and I couldn't speak or say anything, and I was just devastated. I remember my goal was to be the commandant of the Air Force Academy. That was my dream. And all that just came crashing, you know, crashing down. And in that moment, so for nine months I couldn't walk, talk, read or write. I spent another year and a half in rehab, and during that time, obviously went through my medical evaluation board, but I was medically retired, I fought to stay in and then I realized my body wasn't gonna let me and once I accepted that it was over, you know, I was able to move forward so radical acceptance was a hard thing to come by. But the day of my retirement, December 29 2017 came, I was home alone because I was bedridden and house bound for two years. Um, was very hurtful. Remains hurtful. How my Air Force career ended. I love the Air Force based on all the stories that I told, but this moment is very painful for me. It still is. And, you know, I thought, well, what are you going to do about it? You know, you can't. Change that you were bit by tick, can't change that you have a brain injury. What are you going to do? Girl, you know, the fighter pilot in you is not going to quit. And that's when I decided, well, I'm going to, you know, I got to do something. And the phone rang, and the phone rang, and it was during this time, a gal by the name of Buff Bucha, retired colonel, had been in a helicopter accident broke her neck in Afghanistan. She said, Hey, how you doing? I said, I'm not good. She goes talk to me, and I remember for two hours just vomiting everything out to this person I didn't really know very well. Well, she was calling from the Air Force Wounded Warrior program, wow, and the Wounded Warrior program swooped in to save me, and I ended up becoming a trained ambassador and a trained mentor, which I still am to this day. I'm able to help other airmen who are being discharged, but I just want to give a shout out to the Air Force wind Warrior Program, psychologically and mental health wise, I don't know that I would have recovered, and that I would have recovered to the place that I am today without them. And so I want for the active duty, listening for people in the reserve and the guard. It is for you, yeah, it is for everyone, and it is literally a life saving program. Naviere Walkewicz 32:45 Maybe talk about what you've been doing then since. Nicole Malachowski 36:16 Yeah, I do leadership consulting and professional speaking, but predominantly, that helps pay the bills, and I enjoy it. Predominantly, I do patient advocacy work at the national level, so I'm on several government boards. I'm on several nonprofit panels. We've tripled them, and IH funding through the state and like TicK Act and things like that. I'm currently on a National Academies of Science Committee. Can't talk about that because our report will come out in the spring. I hope everyone will read it. But Lyme disease, I went from being a fighter pilot to being an expert on ticks and Lyme disease. Who knew the path to success is always going to be non linear. Naviere Walkewicz 36:49 Yes, you also mentioned you have children. You have twins. Do so how is it talk about, like family life in this new kind of in the way that you're working now, right? You're not in uniform anymore. You're still pushing amazing things forward. You're consulting what's it like being a mom? Naviere Walkewicz 37:06 Man, it's harder, it is harder to raise 14 year old twins than it is to get shot at in combat, I will tell you that. So you know, the person that's been missing in this whole time we've been talking is the most important person in my life, which is my husband, Paul. So we will be married. We just, yeah, just had our anniversary. 23 years. I met him in my first fighter squadron in the late 90s. He's an F-15E WSO. So we met flying together. And my biggest cheerleader, my biggest supporter, the greatest human being on Earth, is my husband, Paul. Naviere Walkewicz 37:38 I want to talk about this resurgence, because I feel like that is really important for some of our listeners. When they're, you know, they're thinking about you said you got to know who you are and what's important to you. And how did you get to that clarity? Nicole Malachowski 37:52 You really need to be able to answer the question, what is it I value and why? And I'm talking about your personal values, the ones that you're going to wake up with every day and go, these are my values. And so I'll tell you what mine are. Mine are courage and compassion and curiosity, and I developed those as I went through this deep thinking and deep reinvention, when I lost my career and compassion, courage and curiosity are what drive me today. Naviere Walkewicz 38:18 We'll ask for Nicole's thoughts on reinvention, resilience and leadership. But before we do that, I'd like to take a moment and thank all of you for listening to long blue leadership. The podcast publishes on Tuesdays in both video and audio, and is available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Watch or listen to all episodes of Long blue leadership and subscribe at longblue leadership.org so we have had an incredible journey together, and really where we'd like to go. One final thought on leadership, if you might, leave your listeners with something about leadership, and I can say just from being in this short amount of time with you, your your 3 Cs are coming out in spades, your compassion, your curiosity and your courage. So thank you. Nicole Malachowski 39:01 Thank you. You know leadership is a journey. We're always put into positions that we're supposed to grow into. Don't think you have to be perfect to be a leader. It's okay to admit when you make mistakes, it's okay to ask for help, and it's okay to have failures, as long as you overcome them. And I like to remind folks at all levels of leadership, you know that the runway behind you is always unusable. All you ever have is the runway that's in front of you. Naviere Walkewicz 39:25 Well said, well said, Thank you so much for being on long blue leadership. Nicole Malachowski 39:29 Thank you for having me. And here's a shout out to the current cadets that are working hard up on the hill, yeah, wishing them best and hoping they take it one day at a time. Naviere Walkewicz 39:36 Absolutely. And for our listeners, I mean, I think that it's, it's it's certainly one thing to say, you know, you get to meet these incredible leaders, but my ask of you is to share this with your networks, because it's great if you felt something and you've had an impact in your life, but imagine the magnitude you can have by sharing some of the stories of our leaders like Nicole today with your networks and the change we can make together. So until next time, thanks for being on. Long blue leadership, thank you for joining us for this edition of long blue leadership. The podcast drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on all your favorite podcast apps. Send your comments and guest ideas to us at social media@usafa.org, and listen to past episodes at longblueleadership.org. KEYWORDS leadership, resilience, resurgence, Air Force Academy, mentorship, aviation, women in military, pilot training, overcoming adversity, personal growth, fighter pilot, mentorship, leadership, Thunderbirds, women in military, self-doubt, White House Fellowship, WASP, Air Force, personal growth, diversity, WASP, Air Force, medical retirement, resilience, leadership, Lyme Disease, tick-borne illness, self-discovery, personal values, reinvention, advocacy The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
In this episode of the Long Blue Leadership Podcast, Cadet First Class Andrew Cormier opens up about his inspiring journey from growing up in Massachusetts to becoming a squadron commander at the U.S. Air Force Academy. He reflects on the early influences that shaped his values, the value of community service and service before self, sharing the leadership lessons he's learned along the way. SUMMARY Andrew also talks about launching his own podcast, designed to help fellow cadets explore their career paths and grow as leaders. Throughout the conversation, he highlights the importance of understanding diverse career opportunities, the personal growth that comes from podcasting, and the power of community engagement. With a focus on national pride and perspective, he emphasizes that true leadership is about serving others—putting the team first rather than seeking personal recognition. 5 QUOTES "It's not about you. It's not about you. It's about the team." "When you're a leader, it's your job. There shouldn't be any extra, you know, kudos given to you. Everyone has their own piece in the puzzle, and just because your face is more prominent than others does not mean that the mission is any less doable with like one piece missing or another piece missing." "I just really urge people to try to understand other people's perspectives and listen more than they talk, because those pieces for me, like I'm a Pretty staunch capitalist, but I recently bought the Communist Manifesto. I want to understand where these ideas stem from." "American ideals are amazing, and they need to be protected. And in order for me to have any say in that, I need to have skin in the game. And that's what I look at my service as is me gaining skin in the game." "It's not difficult, it's just super time consuming and kind of annoying. And so, I mean, it even like stays true to today, everything I have to do isn't necessarily difficult. I'm a management major. I don't know what the Astro or aero people are going through. I'm sure that's very difficult. But for me, it's more just like getting the reps in it, and it's very gradual." - C1C Andrew Cormier '25, October 2024 SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | TWITTER | FACEBOOK CHAPTERS 00:00: Introduction to Cadet Andrew Cormier 02:52: Andrew's Early Life and Background 05:52: Discovering the Military Path 08:46: Community Service and Humanitarian Efforts 12:10: Transitioning to the Air Force Academy 15:07: Experiences in Basic Training 17:57: Leadership and Followership at the Academy 20:47: Becoming a Squadron Commander 24:11: The Role of a Squadron Commander 27:12: Starting the Podcast Journey 34:54: Understanding Career Paths in the Air Force 39:30: The Impact of Podcasting on Personal Growth 44:45: Engagement and Value in the Cadet Community 52:36: Navigating Post-Graduation Decisions 01:00:05: The Importance of National Pride and Perspective 01:04:53: Leadership Lessons: It's Not About You ANDREW'S 5 KEYS TO LEADERSHIP SUCCESS Leadership is not about you, it's about the team. As a leader, your job is to represent and protect your people, not focus on personal privileges. Seek to understand different perspectives and listen more than you talk. Don't take American ideals and freedoms for granted - they need to be actively defended. Balance future planning with living in the present. Don't become overly fixated on the future at the expense of enjoying the moment. Perseverance, critical thinking, and resourcefulness are key to success. Rely on these core strengths rather than trying to control everything. Diverse experiences and mentorship are invaluable. Seek out advice from those who have walked the path you want to follow, and be open to learning from a variety of backgrounds. ABOUT ANDREW BIO C1C Andrew D. Cormier is a cadet at the U.S. Air Force Academy (USAFA) in Colorado Springs, CO. Cadet Cormier is the commander of squadron 15, the Mighty War Eagles. C1C Cormier is originally from Fitchburg, MA and entered the Air Force Academy in June of 2021 following his lifelong passion to “serve others.” Throughout his cadet career he has held the squadron position of Diversity & Inclusion NCO and Spark Innovator, but on an unofficial level has hosted the “For the Zoomies” podcast interviewing over 75 officers to better understand their experiences in the Air Force for the sake of helping cadets make career decisions, as well as been a widely trusted barber in the dormitories. C1C Cormier plans to complete his Bachelor of Science in Business Management in May 2025. Immediately following graduation he intends to commission as a Second Leiutenant in the U.S. Air Force and become an Acquisitions Officer. - Copy and Image Credit: Andrew Cormier CONNECT WITH ANDREW LINKEDIN | INSTAGRAM | TWITTER RECOMMENDED LISTENING: FOR THE ZOOMIES PODCAST with C1C Andrew Cormier LISTEN NOW! ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates! FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS GUEST: C1C Andrew Cormier | HOST: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz 00:00 My guest today is Cadet 1st Class Andrew Cormier, USAFA Class of '25. Andrew stands out among the finest examples of those who have taken the service-before-self aspect of their work as developing leaders very seriously. In Andrew's case, he helps and supports his fellow cadets by guiding them to their optimal career paths through the guests and their experiences on his podcast. This is a new approach for Long Blue Leadership, and one we think you'll appreciate, because we're looking at leadership through the eyes of one who both follows and leads, thriving in both spaces. We'll talk with Andrew about his life before and during his time at the Academy. We'll ask where he's headed when he graduates. We'll discuss the role he's taken on as a podcaster, and we'll ask how he's successfully led and followed. We'll end with Andrew's takeaways and leadership tips. Andrew, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad you're here. Andrew Cormier Thanks for having me, Naviere. Naviere Walkewicz Absolutely. So it's got to be a little bit different being on the other side of the podcast mic. Andrew Cormier Yeah, no, it's definitely interesting to be here. I've done a few before, but they weren't in person, and this was like the highest quality, so I have a little bit of imposter syndrome, not gonna lie. Naviere Walkewicz Oh goodness. Well, we'll learn from each other, right? I think that's the best. We can always be learning; we can always get better. So, I'm excited to take in some of the things that you do as well. Feel really good about that. Well, one of the things we like to do on Long Blue Leadership is we rewind the clock a little bit. Some clocks are further rewound back than others, and so I'm really excited to kind of get to know. Where were you before the Academy? Where'd you grow up? What was life like? Andrew Cormier OK, I'm not as chronologically advanced, like, relative to maybe my experience in high school. I grew up in Fitchburg, Massachusetts, lot of pride coming from the East Coast. My parents, my dad, he worked as a general contractor, so I spent a lot of summers laying tile, you know, doing framing houses, all that sort of stuff, just like, you know, a general laborer. Honestly, just like sweeping up a lot of dust and mess, as he actually did all the hard work. And then I went to a tech school, Montachusett Regional Vocational Technical High School. That's a mouthful, but I went there mostly because my brother went there. I wasn't a huge decision maker back then, like I consider myself somewhat now. And I studied machine technology, and working on metal pieces like running lathes and mill machines and electronic discharge machines, just to — I didn't really know what preparing for the future was like, but that was the kind of path I was on. But then, I grew up playing hockey and lacrosse, and I realized that I had an opportunity with that somewhat, and I was traveling the East Coast playing lacrosse. Think it was after a tournament in Ashton, Pennsylvania, me and my dad got a phone call from Coach Wilson, the Air Force Academy lacrosse coach, saying, “Hey, we saw you play this weekend. We'd love to have you out.” And so that's like a really quick rundown of where I come from, but I guess moral of the story: I really appreciate the background, the kind of blue-collar experiences that I've had when it comes to growing up in Massachusetts. Naviere Walkewicz No, that's awesome. And I think it's, it's great know that you're not afraid to get your hands dirty, to work hard and grit. I mean, that kind of is also synonymous with hockey. I feel like you work hard, you dig. So let's talk about that a little bit more. Older brother then. So you're one of two? Any other siblings? Andrew Cormier Yeah, just me and my brother. Naviere Walkewicz OK, and so what was it like growing up with an older brother? You know, were you always the one that he got to test things on? Or what did that look like? Andrew Cormier No, my brother — he's about three and a half years older than me, so we never really were in school at the same time. He was always, four grades ahead. So we went to all the same schools, but he was leaving just as soon as I was arriving. But no, he was a great big brother. I was more of like the wild child, me and my mom will sometimes look at the family videos, and it's me kind of just being this goofball, like not appreciating things, like complaining, whining, all this stuff while Zach's over here, trying to help me. Like, I remember this video: We lived in this house where the driveway was very steep, and so we would just like drive our little like plastic carts down the driveway right, and my brother was over here, like, trying to push me up the hill, and I'm over here, like yelling at him— Naviere Walkewicz Go faster! Andrew Cormier No, I was like, “Stop, Zach, stop!” Like, looking back, I'm like, wow, I was just a goofball. He's over here trying to help me, right? But no, he was. He was a great big brother. And to be honest, growing up, I consider myself to have, like, a really spongy brain in terms of, I want to learn things through other people's experiences so that I don't make the same mistakes myself. And so when I would see my brother do all these things, he got into lacrosse. I got into lacrosse. He went to Monty Tech. I saw what cool opportunities there were with that. I went there. And so it was kind of like he tested the waters for me, and then I ended up, following suit. And it's, it's kind of changed since then, I've come to a little bit more of like an independent person. But, you know, growing up, you kind of always look up to your big brother. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, I love that. And so, aside from being recognized through your lacrosse sport, how? How did the military come into play? Was that something always on the radar? Is it somewhere in your family, maybe not with your dad or your mom, but elsewhere? Andrew Cormier Yeah, um, my family wasn't big on the military, not that — you know, we grew up pretty disciplined, but the on my mom's side, her parents are immigrants from Canada. There's not a whole bunch of military history there. But on my dad's side, my Pepe, his dad, was drafted for the Korean War, and so he did communications for four years, and then he got out. But beyond that, I mean, he passed when I was young, so I never really got to really — he never really had the opportunity to instill lessons into a sentient person, more or less. So, yeah, I felt more or less like I was doing this for the first time, like it wasn't a huge military thing. But in high school again, my brother, it was an open house. I was in seventh or eighth grade. I get brought to the Marine Corps Junior ROTC program at my high school. And I was really like, what's going on here? Naviere Walkewicz In an excited way, or? Andrew Cormier Kind of. It was more like, intrigued, not super— my first question after he gave his little pitch was, “So do I have to serve?” And he was like, “No, no, no.” And I was kind of relieved. So that's kind of my initial impression. I go to school, I'm not enrolled initially, and to be honest, I don't remember what urged me to enroll in the program, but I ended up enrolling. I loved it. Naviere Walkewicz What year was that? Andrew Cormier It was freshman year, so I did all three years, because I transferred to a different school my senior year, but I did it all three years, and I loved it, mostly because of the service aspect of it. We did a lot of — it wasn't like, I feel like ROTC, especially at the Academy, because, you know, if other cadets see this, they're probably gonna flame me for it. But this has, it has this perception of collecting badges and ribbons and, cadet general, all that sort of stuff. And that was so far from what my program was all about, we were doing a bunch of community service. Like, you know, in Fitchburg, we would go near the Boys & Girls Club and pick up trash in the area. Obviously, picking up the trash wasn't fun, but just like, going out and do something with your buddies on the weekend, that was fun. Countless Salvation Army collections, like we'd sit outside the grocery store— Naviere Walkewicz Ring the bell? Andrew Cormier Yeah, collect money. All those sorts of things were what really pushed me on. And then I think the culminating thing that really pushed me to want to pursue this was, my sophomore year, we did a humanitarian trip after Hurricane Harvey hit in Texas. So we went down to Wharton, raised a whole bunch of money, took 50 of the about 100 cadet corps, and we posted up in this Boys & Girls Club gymnasium, all on cots. We'd march to breakfast at Wharton Community College, and then we'd spend the day going back and forth in teams, in our vans, either bringing cabinetry to houses, flooring to houses, drywall to houses. And then we'd install it, because it was all flooded up to pretty much the knee from Hurricane Harvey. And so that week that we spent down there was super impactful to me, especially at the end. There was a bunch of little projects, but centrally, there was a big project, because this house was basically destroyed. And coming from a tech school, we have a bunch of plumbers, carpenters, cabinet makers, all the all these different trades coming together, and they ended up doing something really good for this one family. And so they left for a week, and then they were able to reintroduce them on that Friday, and it was super heartwarming. I don't know how I feel saying that word, because I emasculated myself, but, that sort of feeling. It was like, “Wow, we really, like, helped a family,” and it was impactful to me. And so, you know, now at the Academy, I'm like, I haven't had time to do community service, and I feel bad about it, but that's kind of what really got me interested in it. Naviere Walkewicz Well, I think it's fascinating how, you know, your ability — you worked with your dad, so I think you brought some of those skills, and then again through school. But I think a heart of service is kind of the theme that we're hearing early on in this conversation. What I think we're going to even talk about more. So you were discovered through lacrosse, the little — you went on a, probably an intercollegiate, tour of the Academy. And were you like, “Yes, this is it,” or was it still like a “Well…” Andrew Cormier Yeah, so backtrack a little bit. My senior year I ended up transferring to Northfield Mount Hermon. It's a college preparatory school, so I was boarding there. And I say that because when I came here, I was really interested in old schools that have a lot of heritage, a lot of tradition. My school, it was like, I — all my fellow “Hoggers” are going to be disappointed that I forget the year that it was founded by Dwight L. Moody, but it's a very old school. Lots of traditions, a lot of fun stuff to like, you know, students are looking forward to and seeing what a lot of the freshmen had to do in my trip here, despite it being a relatively younger school compared to West Point and Annapolis, I was like, “That's cool.” Like, I like the hierarchy structure of it. I really like seeing it. The chapel was out, so I got to see, ya know, it was one of those sort of situations where I was really looking for a school that had fit the criteria of getting able to, you know, serve tradition. And I really wanted to play college lacrosse and at that time it looked like it was gonna fit those descriptions. Naviere Walkewicz Yeah, so the Academy it was, and what was day 1 like for you? Andrew Cormier 12:41 A few disclaimers: I want to say that, one, I didn't end up making lacrosse team, so I don't want to be, you know, claiming I made it and I didn't. And two, so… Naviere Walkewicz …so let's pause there a second. So you were initially recruited, but you got and you had to do the whole application and get in on your own, because you ended up not being a recruited athlete? Andrew Cormier Yes, and I got denied my first time. Naviere Walkewicz OK, let's talk about that. Andrew Cormier Yeah, so I, I applied Well, trade school, education, trade one week, education, other week. So you can see I might be slightly deficient in in certain academic realms. And so that's why I transferred to college Preparatory School, because I wanted to, you know, go all in on my academics, hopefully, you know, get me in. It worked in terms of really opening my perspective, but didn't work in terms of getting me into the Academy the first try, which I was initially a little bummed about, but now looking back on it, I'm like, that was, you know, the Falcon Foundation, shout out to him, or shout out to them, and Gen. Lorenz, everyone. We actually had the dinner last week that was super fun. But I didn't get in. But I got offered Falcon Foundation Scholarship, and I ended up going to again, picking schools off of tradition, Marion Military Institute, which is the oldest one on the list of options. And yeah, I went there for a year during COVID, and that's where I guess the gap is because I'm a Class — I was Class of 2020 in high school, graduating Class of '25, there's that gap. I hope I answered your question. Naviere Walkewicz That's fantastic, actually. And, and I think for those listeners who may not be aware of the Falcon Foundation. You know, we have a number of different college preparatory, military preparatory programs that are affiliated with our Academy. And I think it's a wonderful testament to — you apply for the Air Force Academy. You don't apply for a preparatory school, but the Academy recognizes when we have areas that are maybe just under the cut line, but someone we're really interested in, and how do we get them there? And so I think it's fantastic that you were able to get a Falcon Foundation Scholarship. And I don't call that a gap. I call that just an extra year of preparatory So, yeah, it's wonderful. Andrew Cormier I was definitely prepared more. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, OK, so you came in on day 1 feeling pretty good then, because, you know, where others might have been the whole basic training experience, just kind of, you know, knock their socks off. You're like, “All right, we know this military thing.” Is that true? Andrew Cormier Yeah. And, I mean, I guess in terms of, I know how to make a bed, I know how to wear a uniform, that was less daunting. I'm a management major. I don't know what the Astro or Aero people are going through. I'm sure that's very— Naviere Walkewicz I'm glad you put that caveat in there. OK. Andrew Cormier Yes, I'm a management major. All the assignments are more or less easy, but it's more just like getting the reps in and it's very gradual. So I don't want this to make it sound like the Academy is easy by any means, because what's difficult about it is the task-saturation they have you doing. It's like stuffing 10 pounds of sand in a 5-pound bag, that sort of deal. That's where it's difficult, at least for me. And so coming into it with hearing those sort of perceptions, that's how I went into it feeling, and I was kind of right. I mean, basic training wasn't super rigorous. Naviere Walkewicz You were fit. Andrew Cormier I was, you know, I was able to memorize things. Naviere Walkewicz Good, your mind is a sponge, so that was probably helpful. Andrew Cormier Yeah, I had all my— my bed making skills were already down pat, so all the really tactical things were taken care of, and I understood that I was going to get yelled at no matter what. And coming into it with that, I was just like, OK, this is a game of attrition, and I just can't quit. Naviere Walkewicz I love that. So how did you translate what you felt was maybe not as difficult and you saw others struggling? Have there been times where you've had to step up and take on a role of being more of a support or a leader amongst your peers? Andrew Cormier Yes, of course. I mean, in my baby squad, we had — I wasn't the only, not only preppy, but also they call them prepsters. I was technically a prepster because I didn't go to the “P” but, you know, I was still did a prep year, and we had a prior enlisted person, and so the four or five of us had already seen all this stuff before. And when it came to studying the Contrails, showing people how to, you know, make their closet and all those sort of things. And also when it came to just being away from home, I had been away from home since I was about 17, and I got there when I was 19 or 20. And so acclimating to living away from home is kind of difficult challenge. And so just being there for the people that are like, “I miss home, I miss my mom, I miss my dad, I miss my home food” and all this sort of stuff. You know, there, there aren't a lot of opportunities for chit chat during basic training, at least towards the beginning, but towards the end, I'm like, you know, “You got this, let's power through.” Naviere Walkewicz And yeah, I love that. So let's talk about, while you've been a cadet, maybe some of the ways that you've been a follower and some of the ways that you've been a leader, aside from the one you just kind of shared, what have been some ones that have stood out to you as you're continuing to develop your leadership skills? Andrew Cormier 18:48 OK, following — very much freshman year you're following. Trying to think of some concrete examples. I think credibility, like understanding where you fall on the credibility hierarchy is somewhat a dictator, an indicator of where you should be in terms of leading and following, and I understood that relative to the rest of my baby squaddies, I might have been slightly above the average in terms of credibility, but in terms of the entire squadron, lowest of the low. Naviere Walkewicz Tell me why. Let's talk about that. What do you mean? Andrew Cormier Well, I mean, I remember freshman year when we were getting quizzed on our shoulder board rankings. It's a ground-cloud horizon, and freshmen just have the cloud because their heads in the clouds. They're, very unfamiliar with this place. And you know, it's true, not only do you not know what it's like to have a bunch of GRs in a week as a freshman, just coming out of basic training, but you also don't know what it's like to understand an organization. I didn't understand what a reporting structure like — you know, I didn't understand a lot of these intricacies, and I tried my best to have some humility and understanding that and just keeping my ears open for it. And with that credibility spectrum I was confident in the sense that I could be self-sufficient NS take care of what I needed to take care of on the academic front, the knowledge, the K-test front, athletic front. But when it came to, oh wow, I've never been in a 100-person organization before and at the bottom of it, this is a time to take some notes. I think that's definitely a theme's that's definitely followed through with the podcast especially. I kind of avoided giving a concrete example of the followership. Naviere Walkewicz 25:00 You had mentioned you thought it was a whole bunch of KPP, so what is the role really like as a squadron commander? Andrew Cormier 25:07 It's different than I thought it would be. You know, I think there's this perception of leadership at the Academy, amongst cadets, that leadership is land-naving through the athletic fields and like Jacks Valley. You know what I mean? Like, leadership is these super tactical things, like, how can you be as close to George Washington as possible? But, one, there's not many opportunities. And if you're doing that, opportunities for that sort of stuff, and if you're doing that stuff, you're probably not delegating as you should. And so I think the biggest takeaway that I've gotten from this position is like representation of your people and protection of them. Naviere Walkewicz Talk about that. Andrew Cormier 25:57 So even this past week — I don't want it to be tainted that he's a very good friend of mine, because I would have done this for anybody in my squadron. But he received some paperwork from somebody else, his supervisor. He works a group job, so the paperwork was coming from a wing person, and it was outlining how he had failed to do this and all this stuff, and then at the end, it had said something about his like, — I'm super cool. People mess up all the time. I mess up all the time. That's understandable. Mistakes are gonna happen. But the last paragraph rubbed me the wrong way, because it said something about his character, that, knowing him, well, I didn't really — it seemed very out of character. And so, you know, I've had cadet squadron commanders in the past that are just like, you know, hey, I'm going to trust everything that that the wing person said, issue all of the demerits, tours, paperwork that comes with the recommendation and leave it at that, but my attempt to really take this position seriously is to get the perspective of my friend, see what his opinion on it was like. Maybe let me gather a little bit more evidence. And upon doing that, the statement that was at the bottom of it was completely not apparent in the evidence. And this really raised an alarm for me, because if I weren't to do that, not only was it sent to me, but it was sent to permanent party. I'm like, this is, you know, kind of throwing some dirt on his reputation, and it's not true. And so what happened was I immediately texted the guy. It was cool. I worked with him over the summer on wing staff, and I went to his room, and I was like, “Hey, so, you know, just trying to get some understanding. I'm not here to press you about this, but I want to understand what's actually going on here. This is what is outlined in the Form 10. This is the evidence that I gathered from my friend, and they don't really seem to be congruent.” And then he starts giving his case, and I don't disagree with any of the things where he actually, you know, failed to do things. But then, when it came to the part about his character, he was like, “Yeah, so that's the issue. I did that out of anger of somebody else.” Because I remember seeing the group chat and the message was sent, and then my friend responded super politely, super respectfully, and then his co-worker was like, you know, kind of escalatory, aggressive. And then, as a result, both of them got negative paperwork. And I believe that only the negative character should have been put on his co-worker, not on my friend. And he admitted to that, and he was like, “I'm willing to walk that back, because it doesn't give an accurate representation of his character.” And so, you know, my friend was super appreciative, because, you know, we ended up having a permanent party conversation the next day, and we cleared everything up, and they were like, “Thank you for investigating this a little bit more. Because if you didn't, we probably would have just ran with the guy's recommendation and maybe thought a little bit less of him.” So, um, I guess when it comes to protecting my people, maybe that's now thinking back on it, maybe that's a first sergeant job to handle, like the discipline stuff, but maybe that it was my friend that took a little bit more ownership of it, and wanted to make sure it's correct. But that's more or less an example of protecting my people, or representing my people, I guess they kind of go hand in hand on. I guess, another note of protecting— Naviere Walkewicz Or even what you've learned since being in the role of squadron. Andrew Cormier 30:04 Yeah. Naviere Walkewicz Peer leadership is hard, wouldn't you agree? Andrew Cormier 30:04 It is very difficult. And I think maybe part of the reason why I was selected was because I have a relatively good reputation in squadron to be friendly. Last semester I was D&C. So, you know, I'm outside of the formation, making corrections – Naviere Walkewicz What is D&C? Andrew Cormier D&C: drilling and ceremonies. So I'm outside of the squadron making corrections as people are marching. And it's not an easy thing to do when it's somebody older than you as well. And I'm over here cracking jokes with them and making sure that I do it to everyone, not just certain people. I dig in a little bit more to my friends who I know can accept it, and then it might ease the tension of all the other people who might be not doing it right. And then I go talk to them, like, “Hey, chest up a little bit,” or, like, “'Fix your dress.” But yeah, I think that that was a big piece of me getting picked for it, because I have to uphold a standard, especially in today's Cadet Wing. I don't know if the listeners are privy to all the change going on in the Cadet Wing, but there's a much larger emphasis on standards. “Hey, I'm low key doing you a favor by correcting you so that you don't end up in a three-star's office.” And so as much as it's made cadet life as a whole, somewhat more difficult, it's made my job as a squadron commander, supposed to enforce these standards, a little bit easier, because they know that I'm not like the highest person that's like enforcing this. This isn't me power tripping. This is me trying to look out for people. That perception makes a big difference. Naviere Walkewicz No, that's really helpful, and probably more than you thought we were going to be talking about, because you were probably thought we spending a lot of time talking about For the Zoomies, and I'd like to get there. So let's, let's talk about that right now. So, when did it start and why? Andrew Cormier The reason changed over time, but I started it. I came out of CST, combat survival training, after my freshman-year summer. So it was approximately July timeframe. And I've always been an avid podcast listener. Loved hearing conversations, new ideas, learning, you know, while I just drive. I might think I'm a little bit more productive, like multitasking. And so I've always wanted to start one, but I wanted to be meaningful, not just me and my friends just yapping in some microphones. So what I did was, after freshman year, all of the fever dream of it was over. I could start projecting into the future, not just living in the present. I started projecting into the future, and I'm like, “Oh crap, I have an active-duty service commitment. I actually have to think about that decision for a little bit.” And I was scared because I didn't want to be a pilot. We had Career Night, which is one night every year, and then Ops, which was a whole year out. So I'm just like, I'm not the type to just sit back and let things happen to me. And so to address this issue, I went ahead and was like, you know, Col. Rutter. I went asked him, “Hey, is this feasible? What sort of problems you think I could run into? You know, like, PA, whatever?” And he was like, “Dude, go for it.” And so I started off just interviewing AOCs around base, getting — he was my first episode, talking about A-10s, even though I didn't want to be a pilot, you know, even though I don't want to do that, I'd like to learn more about it. Same thing, maintenance, acquisitions — being a management major was something I was very exposed to in the classroom, and then, you know, it just kind of like expanded. I covered a decent number of AFSCs, and then I started getting to the point where I had this better picture of not only what job I wanted, but also a holistic understanding of how these jobs and career fields intertwined, and it gave me a better picture of what the Air Force does as a whole. And so that was like a big learning piece for it, but it transitioned to, “OK, I don't want to just interview people and like, “Oh, this is what a maintenance officer does the entire time.” People get out after five years. And the reputation right now is that if you want to be a president, go to the Naval Academy. If you want to be a CEO, go to West Point. If you want to be a FedEx pilot, go to the Air Force Academy. And I heard that joke plenty of times, and as funny as it is, I'll admit it, I laughed at it, but like, I don't want that to be the perception of this place, because we produce much, much better leaders than just, pilots, not to poo-poo pilots, but like, CEO versus pilot, like it's, a different game. And so my idea was, how can I highlight that being an airline pilot, a cargo pilot, whatever it is, is not the only avenue to take after commissioning, what else can we do? And that's where I started picking up more perspectives, both on leadership, “What is it like to be a consultant?” I did, you know, definitely lean more towards things that I was interested in, but like equity research, private equity — all these different things, like podcasts, specifically about getting an MBA out of a service academy, all these sort of, like, super tangible things that, because I'm the target audience, I felt would, felt like it would resonate with the cadet wing, and so that was kind of like the motivation moving forward. And you know, it's had so many opportunities for me, like last week. Shout out Ted Robertson behind me, invited me to interview Dr. Ravi Chaudhary, and I'm getting all these super cool opportunities to expand my network and learn what it's like to do things at a more strategic level. And so it's been this really interesting, evolving project over the past two years, and I'll even share this little story. So this summer, I worked a cadet summer research program at Lockheed Martin in D.C. And one of the last days that we were there, they had this quarterly face to face, because it's a global, the corporate strategy arm is a global thing. So they have a like an in person thing every year — or every quarter. And how they started it was, we're gonna talk about just things that you've picked up, whether it's personal life, listen to a podcast, read a book that you wanna share with people. And so I was at the end of this big circle, and I was like, “What am I gonna say?” You know, like, all these people are spouting off this knowledge and wisdom, and I'm sitting here as this intern, trying to come up with something that would be useful to them, and then I actually started thinking. I was like, you know, this podcast changed my perspective on a lot of things, and I get a lot of praise for it, but as much as, like, you know, I acknowledge it was a good thing to help other people expand my own knowledge base of this, it had some downfalls and drawbacks as well. Namely, being I became super fixated on the future, and I was unable to really focus on the present, living in the moment like, get a little dark here, I was a little existential at certain points of time, because I was just constantly thinking future, and I'm like, What am I doing like right now? And it became like a frustrating thing for me, because not only was I interacting with a lot of older people, it was kind of making me feel unrelatable to my peers, and that was bothersome to me, because, you know, I never want to be perceived as this person who's a sycophant, like, just brown-noser and all that sort of stuff. And so it was definitely some drawbacks. And then I, like, brings me to the point of the reason why I started this was that fear. I started because I was scared of not knowing what the future was going to entail. It was this fear of uncertainty. And, you know, reflecting upon that I came into the Academy this, like this confident person and like, where'd that go? Am I not confident? Like the two things that I think if anybody can have will be successful in any realm of life, is perseverance and critical thinking. Those two things, in my opinion, will carry you anywhere. And I felt like I had those things, but I was just discounting them so heavily, to the point that I was like, I need to figure all this stuff out, or else I'm gonna be screwed, when in reality,why am I not just relying on these two things that I know, that I have, you know, maybe you can work in resourcefulness, but I have these two things. Why am I discounting those? And I think that was the big reflection point that I was able to share with the people in this room at this, you know — face to face. And I was like, you know, I had this really big pendulum swing to trying to control everything. And I really don't perceive myself to be a control freak. As, like, a micromanager. I think if you talk to anybody in the squad, they, they won't perceive me that way. But when it comes to my own future, like I want to — in the past — I'm trying to correct it. I'm still not perfect, but I was trying to correct for this. And I'm like, No, that's it's not right. That's not a long term, feasible thing I'm gonna end up burning out, never really living in the moment, never really enjoying things. And so, like that was a big learning lesson from this whole idea. Naviere Walkewicz And you learned that when you're sitting in that circle, or did you learn that — was that when it kind of culminated into how you articulated it? Or had you already felt that way? Andrew Cormier 41:40 The cadet experience, like I said, is very task-saturating, and so I never feel like I have a time to reflect during the semester. This was about July, like this past July, and so although I was working, it was like four day weeks, so I had a decent amount of time to reflect. I always treat my Christmas breaks and my summer breaks as points to reflect, and because that's the only time I have, like, the bandwidth to. And like that whole time period, like I was just so locked in on — like all this work I have my my notion planner and checking boxes, Life is checking boxes. And it took me, you know, shout out to Cylas Reilly, 100% because as much as we're different — like, he's much more, like, happy go lucky, like super high energy guy — being with him on the C-SERP at Lockheed, he, allowed me to put my hair down a little bit like, just take a little road trip, talk about stuff, not be so analytical about everything. And so I guess that's that point where — I had about month, because this was at the end of it. I was leaving the next day. And so we had about a month to talk about things. I had a month to reflect on it, and then this was something that was — like it had been the first time I'd ever put it to words, I'll say that. It wasn't the first time I was trying to process it, but it was the first time that I was putting it into words. Naviere Walkewicz How did you feel after you said that? Andrew Cormier Uh, slightly cathartic. I don't know it is. It's weird because as soon as you put something to words, then you can, like, I feel like understanding is like, if you can talk, if you can think about it, that's like, the lowest level of understanding. If you can talk about it, that's slightly higher. But then writing about it is the highest level. And so, like, I always keep a journal, and I've been trying to write about it, to put it into more concise words. But that was a big — it was kind of like a breakthrough of like, I'm having a higher understanding of this lesson that seems to be apparent in life. Naviere Walkewicz Wow. And I think that's something that our listeners can — and those watching too — can really gravitate toward, because, you know, sometimes we get so caught up in the churn of the “what's next?” and the “do this” and “get here.” And I think an important lesson you just shared with us, and I love that you've learned it earlier on, is the key of reflection and really assessing “where am I?” and “how do I feel about that?” and “what's next?”. So For the Zoomies. Let's talk about that. First off, I mean, you've gotten a lot of praise for it, because they're fantastic, your episodes. What has the cadet wing — how have they embraced it? Andrew Cormier 44:31 You know, I wish Spotify had a little bit better of the data. I can't attach an IP number to a listen. But to be honest, I was never looking for listens. But then as soon as I started growing, I'm, you know, a little bit more tied to it. It's kind of like seeing a lot of likes and stuff on Instagram or whatever. Naviere Walkewicz Affirmations are wonderful. Andrew Cormier 44:53 Yeah, but so I think it was received somewhat well. And I always try to add value to the cadet wing. Some of them I admit are a little bit selfish. They're mostly for me, like I really want to talk to this person. But then I had an episode with the Office of Labor and Economic Analysis about a change in how cadets were going to get matched their AFSCs, and I was thankful that — shout-out to Maj. Ian McDonald. He's the person who reached out for me. He is a representative from OLEA who was like, “Hey, I heard about your podcast. This might be a good episode idea.” And I'm like, “You're a genius. You're a genius.” And so we sat down — him and Col. Joffrion in the economic department. They were—. Naviere Walkewicz Justin Joffrion? Andrew Cormier Yes, classmate, my upper-classmate. He's '98. Andrew Cormier OK, OK. And so we sat down and we walked through how cadets — because the initial, or I guess the legacy system, was OPA, your class, rank, your major, and then your preference. Those were the three things that would get put into this algorithm, this black box, and then you'd be spit out your AFSC. Now, and I think it's still in pilot. Maybe it's confirmed for a Class of '26 but at least for the '24/'25 those were, you know, where it was being tested, and it was much more like an open job market, where you actually able to submit a narrative about things that you projects that you've worked on, capstones, research that you've done, and it was super impactful. Because one, I really appreciate the new system, to be honest, because the military can be very — I've studied a lot of Austrian economics in my time, so I'm very of the mind, like, free markets, don't tell people what to do, like, they'll pick what's right for them. And so seeing this moving more towards a market structure, I was like, this is a good idea. But being able to share that with the Cadet Wing — that's the highest-listen episode, because I think it really, like, drives value. People don't want to, they want to know how the system works so that they can game the system. And one of my questions on the episode was like, “So, are you worried about people gaming the system? Because they know how it works?” And they're like, “Do it. We want you to get the right job.” And so, yeah, it's been super impactful to me that cadets valued the product that I put out there. And they would value it because it was useful to them. I wouldn't want it to be artificially inflated just for the sake of that affirmation, even though it feels good, but, yeah, it felt good to be able to contribute in that way. Naviere Walkewicz I love that. So that's the most listened from the cadet perspective, what was been the most rewarding from the podcast seat, from your side of it? Andrew Cormier Like, most rewarding in terms of— Naviere Walkewicz Either a guest episode or just the experience of podcasts, okay, I'll let you take it where you'd like. Andrew Cormier I have a lot of people pose this sort of question to me a lot about, like, who's your favorite episode? Like, who's your favorite guest? And, you know, they, like, kind of hint at, like, all, like, Gen. Clark, like, or anyone with stars was probably a really cool episode. And, you know, it is an honor and a privilege to be able to get an hour on their calendar because they're super busy. They're strategic thinkers. They don't usually have a whole bunch of time on their hands, but they were able to open up their calendar to me, and so it's an honor, and usually I do come away with a lot of practical knowledge from those things. I shouldn't say that those are always the most enjoyable. One of my favorites thus far has been with Julian Gluck, Cosmo. Because, you know, we sit down, same thing with Sam Eckholm, we sit down and we just — it is a little bit of yap-sesh, so maybe it's more for the people who are looking for entertainment than advice or information on the Air Force as a whole. But we just sit down and talk about cadet life. And I really enjoy the evolution of the Academy experience, year over year. And Sam Eckholm, being a relatively recent grad. Cosmo being — I think he's 2010, so it's like, you know, in these sort of 10-year chunks, and then even… Naviere Walkewicz Is he ‘08 or ‘10? Andrew Cormier He might be — in that timeframe. Yeah. And even Dr. Chaudhary, which was super fun, because for the first half of the episode, we were just talking about spirit missions. And so usually, with these senior leaders, it's more of “What's the strategic landscape?” “What can cadets take away from this?” But with him, it was like, you know, talking about chickens on the freaking football field and like, going up on Flat Iron. And so I always enjoy those episodes from a personal perspective of really having institutional pride, is seeing the evolution of this place and seeing the ebbs and flows of it. And it's like telling that — it makes me understand that the difficulty of this place and like the perception that the cadet wing is getting softer. It's not something that's been this ever since '59 it's been this gradual decline, persistently. It's a thing that comes and goes and honestly, we're more-or-less on an uptrend than not, relative to the adversaries that we're facing. So I guess that's a big piece of it is, as much as I really enjoy learning and getting different people's perspectives on, “Oh, what base should I choose given these goals?” Or, you know, “What does a maintenance officer do at Red Flag?” Naviere Walkewicz Yes, oh, my goodness. Well, I think one of the things that you've highlighted in and this journey of yours is, yes, it's about impact. Yes, it's about, you know, taking care of one another. But there's also this intrinsic piece which is really about relationships, and that's what I hear when you talked about the ones that you really enjoyed most. I think it was that human connection. That's that thread that connects us. Andrew Cormier Yeah, I think you hit the hammer on that thing. You know what I'm trying to say. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, no, I'm with you. So, Andrew, what's next for you? Upon graduation, we know you're not going to be a pilot. What are you going to be doing? Andrew Cormier 52:29 I dropped 63 Alpha Acquisition Manager. Naviere Walkewicz And that's what you wanted? Andrew Cormier Yes, first pick. Naviere Walkewicz So you gamed the system properly? Andrew Cormier Yes. I gamed it properly, yes. And I think the narrative piece of it, I included how I went to Lockheed, and they're very — the project I was working on, was very acquisition-oriented, so I think I really put a lot of emphasis on, “Give me this.” Naviere Walkewicz “I really, really want this.” I'm so happy for you. Andrew Cormier Thank you. Thank you. But so we just put in base preferences. That was a pretty long conversation with a lot of people that I had to have. Naviere Walkewicz Including Chloe. Is she…? Andrew Cormier Yeah, no, she was the main stakeholder outside of me. We probably had three different conversations about it. I'd talk to her first, go get some other input from grads. Talk to her again, more input. Talk to her, and then finally, input. And so, you know, I talked to my sponsor, Maj. Bryce Luken. And the reason I talked to a lot of people that I wanted to be somewhat like, like, I envision myself as them somewhat in the future. You know, they're reservists, entrepreneurial, very like — not sit back 9 to 5, but how are we gonna, you know, improve national security and have our own spin on things, have autonomy over, you know, what we do and our time and so, like, those are the criteria over, like, who I was talking to, so I had a conversation with him. He's like, “You should go to L.A.” I'm like, “Air Force people aren't going to L.A. That's Space Force…” Like, Boston. And so he's like, “Dude, you should go to Boston, MIT, Lincoln Lab.” Naviere Walkewicz Hopefully you talked to Cosmo as well. Andrew Cormier I actually haven't, but yeah, I should let him know I ended up putting in Hanscom. But you know Col. Misha, I saw him at the Falcon Foundation dinner, Forrest Underwood. Yes, they were giving me the same like urging me go to Boston. You're a young professional who wants to get his hands dirty. Don't go to, you know, Langley, where — you know you can still be industrious down there, but you'll be under-resourced compared to if you went to Boston. Naviere Walkewicz See, and that's great feedback that you know maybe others aren't thinking about in their decisions. So I think that's a really great process in the way you approached it. People that are in the ways of where you want to go. And also the important people in your life that you want to make sure stay important. Andrew Cormier Yeah. I mean, at the end of every single episode on the podcast, I always ask for advice for cadets looking to pursue a similar path. Emphasis on “pursue a similar path.” I get a lot of advice, and not that I think anyone is, you know, basing their advice off of maybe an incomplete conclusion. But when you're getting advice, you really have to understand, what are what is their envisioning or like, how are they envisioning your outcome, and is their envision outcome the same as like, what you want? And so I think getting to your point, I really look — I got the advice. Same thing. This past Sunday, I called up Chase Lane, who went to Langley first. And I think that's why he really stuck out to me. But he urged me to go to Boston. And also, kind of like, walked me through. He's like, you know, Chloe works at Space Foundation. She really wants to be in the space world. And so, she's like, “Let's go to Patrick. Right near Cape Canaveral, Cocoa Beach.” Super cool location, you know. I mean, prayers out to the people in Florida right now. I hope that they're all right. But like, you know, that'd be a good spot. Uh, relative, you know, Boston, wet snow every single day. But you know, he kind of like, Chase, walked me through how I should approach a conversation like this. And so, you know, the other night when I sat down with Chloe, as much as you know, I want to value her perspective and wanting to value all inputs, understand where those inputs come from, and find a middle point, a middle ground for everybody, because the team won't last if we're only valuing certain inputs. And you know, it does take a little bit of convincing, but also more of like, open your eyes to what the opportunity really is. Are you making assumptions about this? Am I making assumptions about this? Let's clear those up. And so that's a sort of conversation that we ended up having. And, you know, she's on board with Boston now and so. Naviere Walkewicz I think that's wonderful. I think communication is key. Luckily for you, you're big on communication, And no, I think that's wonderful for our listeners, even. You know, yes, there's probably times when you have to make a decision, there's a lead decision maker, maybe in in a partnership or in a relationship, but when you take in all of those perspectives, like you said, I think the end of the day, when you're coming to that decision, you're in a place of transparency and, yeah, you kind of go for it together. So I think that's great lessons for all of our listeners. Andrew, we're going to get to some of the key thoughts that you have, and I also would love for you to share, and you have a limited to think about this, but something that is, you know, unique to you, that you would love our listeners to kind of hear or learn about you. I think that's one of the things that we've been able to pick up in Long Blue Leadership, is it's kind of neat when people just know what's relatable or what they think is really cool. So, give you a second on that. But before we do, I'd like to take a moment and thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. This podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio, and is available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Watch or listen to episodes of Long Blue Leadership at long blue leadership.org Naviere Walkewicz 58:38 So Andrew, here we are, and we can go in either order. I think, you know, we always like to make sure our listeners kind of have a way to encapsulate the leadership lessons you want to leave them with that's close to you. But also just kind of, what's the thing you want to leave them with that's all about, Andrew? Andrew Cormier It's weird talking about myself, to be honest, because I bet I'm always on the other side of the microphone. Naviere Walkewicz Yes. It's much easier asking the questions. Andrew Cormier Yes. I think one thing that I really wanted to talk about that I guess wasn't outlined in this, was the regular question of “Why'd you come?” versus “Why'd you stay?” And like I mentioned before, the service piece was why I came, but seeing how I haven't done community service really since high school, the reason why I've been staying is because American ideals are amazing, and they need to be protected. And in order for me to have any say in that, I need to have skin in the game. And that's what I look at my service as, is me gaining skin in the game. And, you know, I just, I am by no means a scholar of American history. Massachusetts Public Education did not teach me about the Alamo, unfortunately, so when I went to San Antonio for the first time, I was learning it. But what they did teach me was about our founding fathers. And, you know, being from Massachusetts, Plymouth Rock, it's where the Pilgrims landed, and what it really took for people to come across an entire ocean, fight tyranny. Like ask me, “How do you think I like my tea?” Naviere Walkewicz How do you like your tea? Andrew Cormier In the harbor. You know what I mean? Yeah, like, there's this sort of state and then largely national pride as — it's audacious what has transpired over the past 250 years, and I just want Americans not to take that for granted. I recently watched Civil War. Have you seen that movie? It's like, kind of a journalist's take on what would happen if, you know, states seceded. And it's like a, it's like a reminder of, “Oh, this actually happened. There was a civil war,” but like, you know, we were able to remand it, and like those reminders, tell me that this, this should not be taken for granted. And so, you know, with the kind of, like national landscape, the whole climate, I just really urge people to try to understand other people's perspectives and listen more than they talk, because those pieces for me, like I'm a pretty staunch capitalist, but I recently bought TheCommunist Manifesto. This is probably gonna get clipped or something, but I bought it, and I still haven't started reading it yet, because this semester's been crazy. But I want to understand where these people are coming from. Naviere Walkewicz Critical thinking. Andrew Cormier I want to understand where these ideas stem from. And I want to listen, and I want other people to listen as well. I want a more general understanding of the ideas that are guiding all of this change. What are they actually rooted in? And I think that understanding will make it much more clear as to like, a direction that we should all head in rather than, you know, all this public descent over very more or less menial things that are petty and not worth having the uproar that is ensuing. So I don't know, I guess. I don't know exactly where I was going with that, but my national and state pride gives me this urge to go, in some way, shape or form, defend these ideals and to encourage other people to look at — you know, I didn't mention a whole bunch about Northfield, Mount Herman, but I went to four schools in four years, Monty, Tech, NMH, Marion Military Institute and then here, all four different years, Massachusetts, Alabama, Colorado — in, you know, Massachusetts, my hometown, it's blue collar, NMH, super liberal. I was very international. I was in class with a Malaysian prince. I was exposed to very different perspectives there than I was when I was in Alabama. Here, there's people from all corners of the United States, and so there's this expanding perspective that allows me to be like, what we have here really shouldn't be taken for granted. I think I'm just beating a dead horse at this point, but I just really want Americans to think a little bit more and, like, listen a little bit more and understand a little bit more. I'm off my soapbox. Naviere Walkewicz 1:04:27 I'm really glad you shared that perspective. I mean, I think it's an insight into you know, your deeper calling, and, like you said, why you stay but the threads of everything you've shared have played into that part of that of who you are at the fabric of Andrew. So, any additional leadership nuggets you want to leave with our listeners? Andrew Cormier 1:04:53 I don't want to defer to other things that I said earlier in the conversation, but it's not about you. It's not about you. I have a couch in my room. It's like, Naviere Walkewicz Tell me more about that. Andrew Cormier It's a squadron commander privilege. I have my own room. I have all these like privileges. I have up top parking. It's very like ivory tower-centric. And that's like the perception of this. But it's not about me at all. It is about going and defending my friend. It is about when permanent party is directing frustration towards me, how do I not pass that frustration onto them? How do I make sure that the voices below me are heard. How do we reopen Hap's? Those are the jobs that are mine, and that involves no, like — it's my job, that I think that's the main thing. When you're a leader, it's your job. There shouldn't be any extra, you know, kudos given to you. Everyone has their own piece in the puzzle, and just because your face is more prominent than others does not mean that the mission is any less doable with one piece missing or another piece missing. So I guess it's not about you, it's about the team. Naviere Walkewicz 1:06:23 So, For the Zoomies, just to kind of recap, where is it headed, and how can they find it, our listeners? Andrew Cormier 1:06:33 Spotify podcasts, or Apple podcasts, I guess that's where you can find it. I'm not gonna lie; it's been on a little bit of a hiatus. I've been returning to posting, but had to give myself a break at the beginning of the semester. To be honest, I'm looking to just get to 100 episodes upon graduation and calling it a repository. I'm looking forward to some of the upcoming guests. I reached out to Gen. Mike Minihan the other day on LinkedIn, and he got back to me, and I was like, wow, so maybe he might be on the show by the time this is released. But yeah, I kind of want cadets to understand more. There's a lot of things that are advertised about pilots, but there's more out there. And I want this also be a testament of you don't need to do something in your extracurricular time that is an Academy club. Cadets can do their own thing. Yeah, I hope that answers the question. Naviere Walkewicz That's outstanding. Is there anything that I didn't ask you that you want to share before we close out this amazing episode? Andrew Cormier No, I think, I think I'm good. I've been talking way too long. Naviere Walkewicz Well, it's that, well, we want you to talk because you've been our guest. But Andrew, it's been a pleasure. Andrew Cormier It's been a really — I didn't say this in the beginning, but really, thank you for having me on. It means a lot to me that, you know, I'm the first cadet here, and I don't know what the plan is moving forward, but it means a lot to me that you saw enough in me to put me in company with all the other guests that you have on the show so far, and so I just hope you know it's pressure for me not to do anything to let you guys down. Naviere Walkewicz Well, I think you being who you are, you've already not let us down. You're amazing. Thank you so much. KEYWORDS Air Force Academy, leadership, cadet experience, community service, podcasting, military career, personal growth, mentorship, squadron commander, humanitarian efforts, Air Force Academy, leadership, career paths, podcasting, personal growth, cadet community, national pride, decision making, leadership lessons The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
Dr. Ravi Chaudhary, Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Energy Installations and Environment, is a leader who has taught his team to, "Eat no for breakfast." He lives by a value he learned from his mother at an early age: "If you do your full duty, the rest will take care of itself." SUMMARY In this edition of Long Blue Leadership, Dr. Chaudhary discusses his role in modernizing and reoptimizing Air Force installations to withstand kinetic, cyber, economic, and extreme weather threats. He emphasizes the importance of ruggedizing installations for the Great Power Competition. Dr. Chaudhary shares his background, including his upbringing in Minneapolis and his parents' immigrant journey, and highlights the values instilled in him. He also discusses his work on the implementation of microgrids and microreactors to enhance energy resilience at critical installations like Eielson Air Force Base. 5 QUOTES "If you do your full duty, the rest will take care of itself." - This quote from Dr. Chaudhary's mother reflects the importance of dedication and doing one's job well. "We eat no for breakfast." - This quote highlights Dr. Chaudhary's team's determination to not accept limitations and push boundaries. "Love what you do. Love our nation." - Dr. Chaudhary emphasizes the importance of passion and patriotism in leadership. "America is not about what goes on entirely in Washington. It's about neighbors. It's about what you do for your neighbors." - This quote reflects Dr. Chaudhary's belief in the power of community and service. "Get out of the way and let them in." - Dr. Chaudhary's advice on enabling the next generation of leaders to excel. SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | TWITTER | FACEBOOK CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to Dr. Ravi Chaudhary and His Role 03:07 The Importance of Air Force Installations 06:08 Dr. Chaudhary's Early Life and Family Background 09:03 Lessons from Family: Service and Community 11:52 Reflections on the Air Force Academy Experience 14:54 Leadership Lessons from Cadet Days 18:01 The Role of Innovation in the Air Force 20:48 Strategic Imperatives for Future Operations 23:59 Optimism for the Future of the Air Force Academy 25:07 A Lifelong Dream: Becoming a Pilot 27:31 Launching Innovations: The GPS Program 28:36 Inspiring the Next Generation of Pilots 30:14 Adapting to Modern Challenges in Aviation 32:40 Navigating Change: The Evolution of Standards 34:57 Learning from Failure: A Personal Journey 35:42 The Role of the Assistant Secretary 38:55 Preparing for Great Power Competition 41:09 Innovative Energy Solutions for the Future 44:58 Leadership Lessons and Final Thoughts 5 KEYS TO LEADERSHIP Embrace failures as opportunities for growth. Dr. Chaudhary shared how his failures, like failing a check ride, ultimately helped him grow as a leader. Keep moving forward, even in the face of adversity. Dr. Chaudhary emphasized the importance of keeping your "legs moving" and not giving up when faced with challenges. Leverage the bonds formed with your team. Dr. Chaudhary highlighted how the bonds he formed with his classmates at the Academy carried over into his missions, demonstrating the power of camaraderie. Empower and enable the next generation. Dr. Chaudhary expressed optimism about the capabilities of the current cadets and emphasized the need to get out of their way and let them excel. Maintain a service-oriented, patriotic mindset. Dr. Chaudhary's passion for serving his country and community was evident throughout the interview, underscoring the importance of this mindset in effective leadership. ABOUT DR. CHAUDHARY '93 BIO Dr. Ravi I. Chaudhary is the Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Energy, Installations, and Environment, Department of the Air Force, the Pentagon, Arlington, Virginia. Dr. Chaudhary is responsible for the formulation, review and execution of plans, policies, programs, and budgets to meet Air Force energy, installations, environment, safety, and occupational health objectives. Dr. Chaudhary most recently served as the acting Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Energy. Prior to this role, he served as the Director of Advanced Programs and Innovation, Office of Commercial Space Transportation, at the Federal Aviation Administration. He provided technical leadership and oversight for the commercial space industry, to include research and development activities to support Department of Transportation and White House National Space Council initiatives. Prior to this role, he served as Executive Director, Regions and Center Operations, at the FAA. In this role, he was responsible for leadership, integration and execution of aviation operations in nine regions nationwide. Dr. Chaudhary served as second in command to the Deputy Assistant Administrator and was responsible for providing Department of Transportation and FAA-wide services in the areas of operations, safety, policy, congressional outreach and emergency readiness for the National Aerospace System. Dr. Chaudhary commissioned in the Air Force in 1993 upon graduation from the United States Air Force Academy. He completed 21 years of service in a variety of command, flying, engineering and senior staff assignments in the Air Force. As a C-17 pilot, he conducted global flight operations, including numerous combat missions in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as a ground deployment as Director of the Personnel Recovery Center, Multi-National Corps, Iraq. As a flight test engineer, he was responsible for flight certification of military avionics and hardware for Air Force modernization programs supporting flight safety and mishap prevention. Earlier in his career, he supported space launch operations for the Global Positioning System and led third stage and flight safety activities to ensure full-operational capability of the first GPS constellation. As a systems engineer, he supported NASA's International Space Station protection activities to ensure the safety of NASA Astronauts. Dr. Chaudhary is a DoD Level III Acquisition Officer and has published numerous articles in future strategy, aircraft design, business transformation and space operations. - Bio Copy Credit to AF.MIL CONNECT WITH DR. CHAUDHARY LINKEDIN | INSTAGRAM | TWITTER ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates! FULL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Guest, The Honorable Dr. Ravi I. Chaudhary '93 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz 00:00 My guest today is the assistant secretary of the Air Force for energy installations and environment, the Honorable Dr. Ravi Chaudhary USAFA, Class of '93. Against the backdrop of Great Power Competition, Dr. Chaudhry leads the modernization and reoptimization of the Air Force to ruggedize our installations across the globe against what he describes as kinetic threats, as well as non-kinetic cyber, economic and extreme weather threats. He has served as acting deputy assistant secretary of the Navy for energy; the director of advanced programs and innovation, Office of Commercial Space Transportation at the Federal Aviation Administration; and he has led in the commercial space industry research and development in the support of the Department of Transportation and the White House, National Space Council. We'll talk with Dr. Chaudhry about his life before, during and after the Academy. We'll discuss his role, modernizing and re-optimizing initiatives and strategies for the Air Force. We'll touch on leading through new and changing threats and making decisions with climate in mind, and we'll discuss Dr. Chaudhary's work with the secretary of the Air Force and leadership at the base, command and warfighter levels. Finally, we'll ask Dr. Chaudhary to share advice for developing and advanced leaders. Dr. Chaudhary, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad to have you. Dr. Chaudhary 01:18 Navier, thank you so much. Thank you for that way too kind of an introduction, and I only have one regret. On this weekend, did you have to mention that I was in the Navy for a little while? You just about blew me away. I know you've got some white clear liquid here. I'm just about ready to find out what the clear liquid is. Naviere Walkewicz Cheers. Dr. Chaudhary 01:40 Off we go, and we'll let our audience speculate, and depending on how it goes, we'll critique ourselves. Just an honor to be here, and congrats to you on your career of service in the Air Force. Naviere Walkewicz Thank you so much. This is truly a pleasure. And I think what we love about Long Blue Leadership is it's really about our listeners getting to know you. And we have so many different listeners that are really excited. So let's start with the hat. I've noticed we've got a hat on right here. “Air Force Installations: Best in the World.” Let's talk about it. Dr. Chaudhary Yeah, let's talk about that. Because we do have the best installations in the world. Our installations are power projection platforms. Every Air Force installation has a mission that begins and terminates with it. If you go all the way back in our history, Gen. Hap Arnold had this to say about our installations: “Air bases are the determining factor in air operations.” Think about that. Think about why we need to make sure that our installations are ready to go, and why we invest in them as an Air Force. It's because you can't get the jets out of town unless they have a good runway that works, unless they are hardened and ready to absorb the types of blows that have come to us in the past. And I'm telling you right now that we've got to be ready for this future, in a decade of consequence in Great Power Competition. We've got to focus on ruggedizing and ensuring that our installations are as survivable as they ever have been. Naviere Walkewicz Absolutely. Well, I can say that that is certainly true, having been at bases where we've seen some challenges, it does halt and sometimes stop operations. So yeah, you're right. Yeah. So it's incredible the work you're doing, and we're going to talk about that today. But before we get there, can we rewind the clock a little bit? Dr. Chaudhary Please don't rewind it too far, but I have a feeling you will. Naviere Walkewicz Just a little bit. Just enough to kind of get to know who Ravi was as a young boy. What were you like growing up? Tell us about your family and where you grew up. Dr. Chaudhary That's cool. So, I was born and raised in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I grew up there all my life. My parents came from India in 1960s and they always dreamed to do the unusual, it was the American Dream that brought them to this country. And they had kids, you know, and growing up as a South Asian American, you know, people in community would be like, “Hey, you know, why are you going to join the military? Why are you going to, you know, once you just be a doctor or engineer or lawyer or something like that?” Kind of fit the stereotype. But I always thought about it this way: If my parents would give up everything they wanted in their life, their language, their culture, everything to pursue their dreams, wouldn't they want that for their children as well? And so off I went to the Air Force Academy, and the values that my parents instilled in me rang true just about every single day. In fact, when I grow up, my mom would always tell me this. She'd say, “You know, if you do your full duty, the rest will take care of itself.” Naviere Walkewicz That sounds very familiar to me. Dr. Chaudhary And she would say, in the Sanskrit word for that — and my faith tradition is Hinduism — the Sanskrit word for that is “dharm.” If you follow your dharm, everything will take care of itself. And lo and behold, I'm getting choked up a little bit, because when I showed up and opened that Contrails and saw that quote, I knew that Mom and Dad had prepared me, had prepared me for the challenges that would come, not just the Academy, but everything from 9/11 to deploying to Iraq to raising a family and making sure they have everything they need to prosper. So, all that brought me to an institution that honestly brought out the flavor and gave me in the same opportunity that this country gave my father. So, it's just been a pinch-me career, and it's just an honor to be here with you today and with the entire AOG team talking about this. Naviere Walkewicz 05:36 That's amazing. I mean, I, thinking about what you just said, that your parents came and they pursued a dream. What was that like in your household? What did that look like? Dr. Chaudhary 05:45 Here's what it looked like. My dad — he actually came to this country with about $165, $80 of which went to his tuition. He was at University of Missouri, and then he eventually went to University of Minnesota. The rest he used to get a house and fill the fridge. And so, when he was looking for an opportunity to serve, he wanted to be in the U.S. Department of Agriculture and serve as a fed and so he didn't get that chance. So, what he did, he literally drove, put me and my brother and my mom in a car and drove to Washington. When he drove to Washington, he dropped us off at the Lincoln Memorial and walked up the stairs of the Capitol. Two senators from Minnesota, one was walking out, Sen. Walter Mondale. He said hello to him. He didn't know him from Adam. And then he went to the office of Hubert Humphrey and he sat down with him, and he told his story to Hubert Humphrey and Hubert Humphrey said, “This is what America is all about.” And he was kind enough to give my dad a shot in Minneapolis. And he spent his entire career, 25 years, as a federal inspector in the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Naviere Walkewicz My goodness. Dr. Chaudhary It's an incredible story. But you know what? It all came together about a year and a half ago when I was confirmed and during my swearing, and it was honored to have Sec. Kendall swear me in, but to have my dad walk up the front steps of the Pentagon with my mom and I. We go up the stairs, and I said, “Dad, would you turn around for a second?” And he turned around. I said, “You know, you can see the Lincoln Memorial and you can see the Capitol.” And I said, “Look what you've done in one generation.” That is the embodiment of the American dream. And as he was kind of — I'm getting choked up — he wiped the tears from his eyes. He realized that that that what this country has given to us is something that we've got to always think about giving back and giving back, and that's really what my career has always been about, giving back to the country that has given my family everything. Naviere Walkewicz 07:59 That is amazing. Wow. I mean, I'm almost without words, because I can see what your dad has instilled in you, made possible, but instilled in you as a servant leader as well. I'm just… that's pretty impressive. So, tell me about your mom, because it sounds like she also instilled some pretty incredible traits in you and some beliefs in how to treat people. What did that look like in, her leadership in your life? Dr. Chaudhary 08:26 What can I say about my mom? She's a pillar of the community back in Minneapolis. She runs a nonprofit called Seva. In Hindi, seva means service, to serve, serve your fellow citizens, serve your nation. And again, I told you about her, her enduring quote, “If you do your full duty, the rest will take care of itself.” So, in that nonprofit, she is actually bringing cultural-specific services, health services, to the Asian American community. One thing she did during Covid was incredible. She pulled together a meal team, and she served somewhere around 20,000 seniors. And it wasn't just Asian Americans, anybody in the Minneapolis community that was struggling, that couldn't get food, that was having a tough time. And then, as you know, after the George Floyd tragedy occurred, the town, the city went through a tough time, and there was an area right around one of the police stations where the riots were going on and everybody was fleeing when. When the community was fleeing, she was mobilizing her team to go in. They were going in and they were rescuing people from shelters to get them to a safe place. And two days later, she brought a team into the community that was still smoldering and set up meal stations to just give people sandwiches, bread, whatever — to just make everybody feel good and move forward, and that's what America is about. Sometimes we get so wrapped up in the times and differences, but we realize that America is more than just Washington. America is about neighbors and neighbors caring for each other. So, where did I learn that? I learned that from my mom, but the Air Force Academy brought it out, and I applied that every single day, whether it was a mission launching GPSs, doing engineering — tough engineering problems, or flying missions into the CENTCOM AOR, where we had to bring crews to bear to execute incredible missions. And so, reflecting on that — boy, you're really tearing me up today… Naviere Walkewicz No, not at all… Dr. Chaudhary …because you're bringing this all out of my heart, and it's just an honor to be here and humbling to tell the story. But I know that there are thousands and thousands of grads out there that have just as inspiring stories, and that's why I love to come to AOG. That's why I like to spend time with our cadets today, which was just as incredible. I went down to Jacks Valley and got to see the assault course as well. Luckily, I didn't have too many flashbacks. Naviere Walkewicz I was going to say, did you have your rubber ducky with you? Dr. Chaudhary Yeah, I did not. They didn't push me through it, but the demo was incredible. And I know our secretary was equally impressed with the cadets and the caliber of students that are here, the caliber of our cadets, and how I'm so optimistic for the future of our Air Force and Space Force. Naviere Walkewicz 11:33 Absolutely. And I can share, based off of what you shared about your mom and dad, there's no reason why you're [not] able to take on a job that almost seems impossible with the scope and breadth of what you're responsible for. So, I can't wait to get into that as well. Can we go to when you're at the Academy? I want to know more about you as a cadet, because as interesting as you are as an adult, what were you like as a cadet? Dr. Chaudhary 11:54 There's a lot that I really shouldn't disclose. Okay, so we've got to be really, really careful. So, me and my classmates, we have this thing called “mutually assured destruction.” You know stories about me, I know stories about you. Just leave it there. But let me tell you, the Academy was just the honor of a lifetime. But you know what — going through it with your classmates is something. I was just having lunch with our cadets today. I was a grad of Delta Tau Deuce, and to spend time with them and tell them stories, and hear about their stories, about what Deuce is like these days, was absolutely just, I was just blown away with it. But yep, I was primarily in Deuce. I had the just pleasure of beaing a squadron commander and having peers that really care for each other, peers that I keep in touch with. To this very day, I have them up on text. Naviere Walkewicz Oh, wow. Dr. Chaudhary And we share with each other. We have challenges. We go through it together, but I will tell you one story about why your cadet story matters, and you don't realize it until the balloon goes up. When I graduated from pilot training, I graduated essentially the day after 9/11 and I was actually in the planning room when 9/11 happened, and within a few weeks — I did my check ride that day — within a few weeks, I was at Charleston Air Force Base, and my squadron commander had me look out the window and said, “We don't have time to mission qual you. We don't have enough pilots. We're going to marry you up with a crew to go down range.” And you know what he did? He married me up with two people, one who was my classmate from the Class of 1993, Naviere Walkewicz Really? Dr. Chaudhary Two was a member of my squadron from Deuce, and he was a new aircraft commander. We had an experienced first pilot, and I didn't know nothing from nothing. I was a brand-new co-pilot. And so, getting ready for that, for those missions, a new environment for me, required something that our squadron commander knew that if I put three Academy graduates together, the bond that they've had in their years was going to carry them through toughest conditions, in unknown conditions. And sure enough, we clicked and did well. But to anybody who's a current cadet and listening in and wondering, “Hey, is this bonding — is what's going on now, the time that we have together here in the Academy going to amount to anything?” I'm here to tell you, it does and through my own life experiences, and quite honestly, in a number of missions, we fly working it together as a team. The bonds we create as cadets carry over for decades. Naviere Walkewicz 14:54 So maybe you can share some of those bonding moments at the Academy. You said you were a squadron commander. What were some of the lessons you learned from a leadership aspect, in leading your peers, but also while still trying to bond with them? Dr. Chaudhary 15:08 Yeah, when you look back, sometimes you're separated by age and rank, right? You got age and you got rank and your peer groups kind of set you that way. At the Academy, it's completely different because your peers, as a senior, you're all peers and colleagues, and to take on a leadership role is what I would say is the toughest challenge of all. To lead a team of peers and colleagues can be challenging. And there's challenges that really kind of come with everything like that, but to me, you can't do it without collaboration, without consulting folks and being inclusive in how you give people a voice. Now the jury is out — I'm not going to judge whether I was successful or not. Probably not, you know? But I will say we did one thing: It was gonna be we were gonna be the athletic squadron of the year. We were a beast. In fact, we decided that we were gonna go for one thing: We were the athletic squadron. And so, we did. Naviere Walkewicz That's impressive! Dr. Chaudhary We kicked some serious buttt. So, back in the day, you do what was called a sweep. So, if you swept all your sports and intramurals that day, you would, the next day, you would get Mitch's Mountains. And so, the lore of Mitch's Mountains was incredible. And today, interestingly enough, we had what I would call Mitch's Mountain version 2.0 — probably half the calories and twice the caffeine. I don't know what it is. But I actually whipped out a picture of an old Mitch's Mountain. And I show them, they're like, it was really funny, because to see the look in their eyes and to see an original Mitch's Mountain, it was like, oh, you know they looked at and they're like, “That's what a Mitch's…” And they're like, “There's an Oreo cookie on top!” I'm like, for us, “Ok, this is a nice 2.0” and everything, like you gotta go back to… Naviere Walkewicz 17:05 So, how many of those did you get? If you were actually the athletic squadron, you must have swept multiple days. Dr. Chaudhary 17:12 You see the love handles on me right now? That was the one challenge. Because, you know, [you‘ve] got to stay in shape. But we kicked some serious butt; we would sweep all the time. I was actually on the water polo team… Naviere Walkewicz 17:25 …we share that. I did not enjoy it. It sounds like you might. Dr. Chaudhary 17:30 I don't know. So, I'm a decent swimmer. I'm pretty good. Grew up in Minnesota, tons of lakes. I could say I'm a decent swimmer, but I can tell you I am not a water polo player. So, what they used me for in water polo… Naviere Walkewicz Were you the buouy? Dr. Chaudhary I was the anti-buoy, because whoever was the good player, they'd say, “Go and put your arms over that one and get them underwater,” so that our fellow water polo teammate could go in and score. And so, probably one of my most beloved plaques in my life is my water polo plaque because we were Wing champs. Naviere Walkewicz Oh, my goodness! Dr. Chaudhary We ran the tables and were Wing champs, and that plaque still sits on my desk. It's one of my most beloved things. You know, my wife, she's getting ready to toss it. I'm like, “No, no, not that!” Naviere Walkewicz Not the water polo plaque! Dr. Chaudhary She's like, “Oh, what about this graduation plaque from the Academy?” You can get rid of that, but don't get rid of my water polo plaque. That is beloved. So anyways, I was asking cadets today, “What's Deuce like?” I'm like, “So are you guys a training squadron?” Naviere Walkewicz What are they like? Dr. Chaudhary They're like, “We're the standards squadron.” And I'm like, “Wow, that's impressive.” I'm like, “What about Mach One? Are they the training?” So, they're like, “Mach One. Nah, not really.” They're like, “We're No. 1 in SAMIs. We're No. 1 is…? I'm like, “Oh, wow, they still have SAMIs and stuff like that.” Have fun. Yeah, that was a haze for me. Triple threats were always a haze, yes, so I never liked that, because well… Naviere Walkewicz 18:49 Maybe the Deuce team does now. Dr. Chaudhary 18:53 Mach One, they loved it. I've got friends from Mach One. They're gonna kill me, but yeah, they love it. They're all into it. Cleaning their rooms and Deuce would be on the corner going, “Would Mach One please go to bed?” So anyway, sorry. But yeah, it was an interesting time, you know, talking with some of our cadets. Naviere Walkewicz 19:26 I love these stories. So, were you this happy as a cadet? Dr. Chaudhary 19:31 No, I was not a happy cadet. I was a surviving kid. I was trying to get through the next day. And honestly, to me, it was always a wonder to be there, and I was always grateful for being there to serve. I was in a tough major, aero major, and honestly, it didn't come right away to me. And so I was not one of those sterling cadets that just rocks the house and everything. I was on the Comm List for a good portion of the time, but the academics took some time for me. I spent a lot of time in the aero lab. And, you know, the cool thing is, … I did projects and drag reduction, and we we tested these winglets on the tips of wings, and we did flow visualization. I had this professor. His name was Tom Yechout, and I was talking to some aero majors today. They're like, “You know, Tom Yechout?” And I'm like… Naviere Walkewicz He's still there. Dr. Chaudhary “He teaches controls here” I go, “Well, he taught me flight controls as well.” But he supervised me, and one time, I think, maybe at the last reunion, he brought me to the cabinet, and he opened up the cabinet and he showed me the hardware that we used for our project. Naviere Walkewicz 20:39 From your class? Dr. Chaudhary 20:43 Yeah. Naviere Walkewicz That's amazing! Dr. Chaudhary And here's why I'm telling you that: When in my interview with Sec. Kendall, he sat me down and he was talking about, “Hey, in your in your team, we're doing some drag reduction activities.” And he's like, “What do you know about blended wing body aircraft?” And it turns out, not only had I done some research on that, I had done a project at Staff College and to me, you know, my message to cadets out there who are working on a project who are wondering, “Hey, is this going to amount to anything? Does this matter?” I'm here to tell you that it does, because the type of work that goes on at this Academy is literally out of this world. We got folks who are working with SpaceX. I went down and that we're actually doing a project called the blended wing aircraft, which is like a big flying manta ray. It's going to reduce fuel consumption by roughly 30% to reduce fuel for fuel consumption across our Air Force and extend our range. Naviere Walkewicz How are we going to do that? Dr. Chaudhary Well, we're going to build a prototype in 2027. One of my sections is operational energy, and we have a team dedicated to reducing drag on aircraft, finding efficiencies. Why is this important? Well, it's because in Great Power Competition, we know that our adversaries are going to come after our logistics and fuel — our resources. And as a logistician, you know that. Our adversaries are targeting our installations, they're going to target our fuel resources. So, what's the best thing we can do? We can be as efficient as we can with our fuel and flying C-17s, is one thing you get to know real quick that if you land at an austere location, you're going to drain that fuel bladder almost instantly. And what does that mean? That means less sorties. That's less fire missions if you're flying Apache's out of there. That means less fuel for generators if you lose power. That means less ability to get your CAPs in the air, and we've got to embody that as a department and be ready for what that challenge holds for us. So getting efficient with our field, to me, isn't something that we're going to do because we're nice. We're going to do it because it's going to be an imperative. It's going to be a strategic imperative, and we've got to be ready for that. And so, we've been working hard at those things. The blended wing body aircraft is a long-term thing that it's been out there for a long time, but we've got to proof it. And so, it's really cool… Naviere Walkewicz It's almost full-circle for you. Dr. Chaudhary Yeah, it's incredible. And we just were at this, at the plant for Jet Zero. We did a visit there to spend some time with them and look at look at their production facility. And what do I see when I walk in the conference room? Five cadets sitting on the end of the table, learning, taking notes, interacting with the top systems engineers. And interestingly enough, one of those cadets had come and visited me and spent the summer — actually, three of them. She was part of a team of three that came and visited my organization and worked on the impacts of strategic temperature changes and how it will affect payloads for tanker aircraft. And so, they did this research, presented me this paper, and now here I am seeing them at industry being on the leading edge. And to me — let me tell you that filled me with so much optimism and excitement for the future, and most importantly, what we're producing here at the Air Force Academy, a top-notch engineering school that is regarded across the industry. So, a little turn to academics there, but big shout out to what we're doing across our academic programs. I just think we're on the right track, and we need to keep up the momentum. Naviere Walkewicz 24:30 No, that's huge. I was actually going to ask you, how are you leveraging some of our cadets in some of the things you're doing? But it sounds like they're already doing it. Dr. Chaudhary 24:40 Check! Done. They're rocking the house. Just, just leading the way. It's awesome. Naviere Walkewicz 24:43 That's amazing. Yeah. So, let's talk about — and I'm really curious — so, after you graduate the Academy, did you know you always wanted to be a pilot, by the way? Did you know you wanted to fly? Dr. Chaudhary 24:50 I can't remember a day where I wasn't drawing airplanes. And you're asking me about when I was younger. You know, “What kind of kid were you?” I was a kid who was drawing airplanes. OK, I was the kid with the airplane books. I was a kid who was checking out every single airplane book and library and learning about them and trying to understand them and wanting to know more. And so naturally, it was just — I can't think of a day where I didn't want to be an aerospace engineer, be a pilot. And you know, sometimes the ebb and flow of demand for the Air Force —there was a time of reduction in pilots for the for the Academy, and I didn't get that opportunity then and it was a bummer. But you know, if you do your full duty, the rest will take care of itself. And so, I landed at Los Angeles Air Force Base where we launched this program. I got to launch rocket programs. And you may have heard of this particular payload: It's called GPS. Naviere Walkewicz 25:44 I might have heard of that one, yes… Dr. Chaudhary 25:47 …and it was the first time we were doing it. And we're young lieutenants, and we're at Los Angeles Air Force Base, and I was getting the responsibility for third-stage engines and ordnance systems and some of the avionics, and my boss said, “We don't have time. We're launching rockets every single month. I need you to go out to this corporation called Thiokol, and I want you to buy that rocket.” And by the way, he said it in a way that was like, “Don't screw this up,” right? Naviere Walkewicz The undertone was there. Dr. Chaudhary Yeah, we've had that don't-screw-it-up moment. And so that was one of them. And so, the one thing that I remember is that our Academy demands a lot, and it demands a lot for a reason. Because leaders will be demanding a lot of brand new officers. Now the jury's out as to how well I did, but we had three we had three successful missions, and we delivered full operational capabilities for our department. And to me, I look back on that. I, believe it or not, still keep in touch with the captain who welcomed me, who brought me on the team and, in 2018, I got the incredible opportunity to let the last Delta II rocket go. And I brought my wife and my daughter with me, and that kind of brought the whole band back together. And it was cool to have kind of the old space cowboys and in the room again going, “Well, let's, let's let this rocket go for one last time.” Naviere Walkewicz That is really cool. Dr. Chaudhary And the best part of it was, after that rocket went and you felt the rumble — the rumble of a rocket, there's nothing like it in the world. When you feel the rumble go into your stomach — I leaned over my daughter. I go, “What do you think?” She said, “I am doing that.” Naviere Walkewicz 27:34 I was just going to ask you, did it bleed over into your daughter? Dr. Chaudhary 27:38 Now, she's a cadet at Georgia Tech. She just finished field training, and of course, like every good Academy graduate should do, buck the system. So, she bucked the system with her dad and said, “I'm gonna do ROTC and go to Georgia Tech. So, good luck this weekend against Navy. I'll kind of vote for you, but just want to let you know the Academy is a lot easier than Georgia Tech.” So, she and I jaw back and forth, but watching her grow has been really cool. And I got a chance to take her up and fly and get her ready for her career. She wants to be a pilot. And let me tell you, we got nothing on this next generation. They are ready for technology. They are ready for the leading edge, and we've just got to enable them. Honestly, we've got to get the hell out of the way and let them in. There's one situation, we had new avionics on the aircraft. I won't bore you with the details, but it allows you to deconflict from traffic. It's a GPS-based instrument, and I was kind of flying with her one time a few years ago, and I said, “All right, well, this is what is so, you know that little piece, you know 2,000 below you, positive means 2,000 above you. It's closing it…” She's like, “Dad, Dad, Dad, stop, stop!” Naviere Walkewicz 28:58 She knew… Dr. Chaudhary 29:00 She knew how to interact with that technology, and honestly, I didn't. I was learning how to interact with that technology. So, we've got to really make sure that we're blazing a path for our next generation, but at the same time, make sure that that we're not getting in their way. And I think sometimes we do that as grads. We're like, “I was like this when I was there…” You know? I was at Mitchell Hall today, and I saw the 0-96 up there and it's memorialized. And I walked by that thing… Naviere Walkewicz 29:32 Did you scan the QR code to fill one out? Dr. Chaudhary 29:33 Yeah, I did not do the QR code. I was like, that's too much for me. But when you look at it, you know, I thought, I'm like, that's probably where that thing ought to be right now. It's a great remembrance of why it's important, why standards are important, and then the example of how it paid off in combat conditions and saved a life was pretty important. But I'll be honest with you, we find other ways today with this next generation. I can remember flying one mission and we lost SATCOMMS with a particular field, and we were roughly maybe six hours out for Iraq in the combat zone, and we didn't know the status of the field. And one of the things you need to do is make sure the field's not under attack. So, before we did that, we're like, “Hey, how do we get our 30-minute… You know, it just wasn't happening. But you know what we're doing. We had brevity codes. And all along the line, all the C-17s that were lined up miles after miles going all the way back to Azerbaijan at 30,000 feet. We're all on. We're communicating. … We're using brevity code, so, we're not giving anything away. We're using our brevity code, and we're saying this is the status of the field. And we're relaying, we're literally relaying a half world away. That's a testament to our pilot corps, testament to duty. And so it's really in the spirit of that 0-96 there that we've adopted. So, when people say, “Oh, that tradition is going to ruin us, you know, we're going to lose standards.” I could tell you that, even though we got rid of that thing, that we're still an effective force. And I think we have to understand that a little more and as we kind of move through a period of change at USAFA — I was talking to our cadets about, “Hey, what do you think about the changes?” and, “Yeah, well, restrictions, but I understand on the importance.” I'm going to hearken back to 1991 or so, when the first Gulf War kicked off, and we were cadets when that thing kicked off, and almost instantly we moved into BDUs. We started wearing those every day. We started creating the warfighter mindset. We sealed off to make sure that we had good security. We canceled a lot of passes, and you know what we did? We moved from a fourth-class system to a four-class system. Sound familiar? Sound familiar? That was after the war kicked off. Think about that. After the war kicked off. Our superintendent is trying to do it before the war kicks off, to make sure that we're ready, ready to fight the fight and get into it. So, I have a lot of respect for our superintendent and taking this step. I do agree that we've got to get execution right. Sometimes you get some growing pains with those things, but I think we've got to step back in the grad community and digest a little bit and get behind some of the changes that have been going on. And I was talking to some cadets last night, I go, “What do you think of this?” And they're like, “We understand it. It hurts a little bit.” Because the expectations … the environment that we're in has now changed. And you know, honestly, I'll shoot straight from the hip and say that sometimes it feels like the goal post is being moved on you, because you meet one standard, and then they move again. Yeah, you know, things get tough, but we're a resilient institution, and when you get down to the brass tacks of who we are as grads, the core of what we do and execute our mission will never go away. And we've just got to blaze a path for our next generation to be successful. Naviere Walkewicz 33:24 Absolutely. Well, speaking of blaze a path — and I think some of our listeners want to hear sometimes, you know they have times when they fail at things in leadership. How do you grow from that? Can you share a time when you experience failure and what it looked like, to help inspire them through that. Dr. Chaudhary 33:42 Yep. Well, worst day of my life was when I failed a check-ride. I failed a simulator check-ride in the C-17. And it hurt. It hurt bad. I had aspirations in my career. I was like, “What's this gonna mean for me?” But you know some really smart folks, and that's when you turn to people who you really go to for advice, and it's like, you know, “Ravi, there are those who have and those who will.” So honestly, I just needed a smack in the head. They're like, “Get over it, man. You know, whatever you failed check-ride. Go out there, clean that thing up and those ups and downs in a flying career occur.” I'm being 100% honest with you, my failures are stacked up right next to my successes. And so, I think, to me, the failures were the things that helped me grow, grow through things and sometimes you think, “OK, well, that failure was unfair. I got, you know, I got a raw deal out of that.” Maybe I did, maybe I didn't, but you keep moving forward. Keep taking one step after another. Now I'm not a football guy. I love football. Watch about I never played football, but I do know what running back coaches say. I think, I'm not sure, they say, “Above all, always keep your legs moving. Don't ever up when you're running. Keep your legs moving.” And so, to me, I've always taken that advice. I've given that advice to other people too, especially when they come to me with challenges. Naviere Walkewicz 35:09 That's great advice. So maybe we can talk about your role now a little bit. And so, can you actually explain what you do? It might actually be shorter to say what you don't do, because when I look at the description, it's quite a bit. We have listeners that are parents and that maybe don't have a lot of military background and really understand. So, I think it's wonderful to share with the full community. Dr. Chaudhary 35:31 Yeah, let me talk about the position. So, the job is one of those long titles. It's the assistant secretary for energy, installations and the environment. First thing first. I'm not a military member. I am a presidential appointee, so my job is as an appointee, a Senate-confirmed appointee. That means that you go through a hearing like you see in TV, and you get voted on, right? You get the vote. I was lucky enough to have after a period of being held, I had a bipartisan vote. And so that was pretty neat to have that. But my role specifically is to ensure that our installations are ready for the fight, for the future fight, and for current conditions. Things that I lose sleep over: Right now we're in a decade of consequence that our secretary and chief regularly say that decade of consequence includes great power competition in which China and Russia seek to shape the world order in ways that that work to their advantage, in autocratic manner, and so we've got to be ready for that, and that includes establishing an important deterrence. So, my job is to make sure installations are strong and present an approach of deterrence, and when deterrence failed, be ready to win. So, what does that mean for us? That means ensuring that our installations have power capabilities, that have strong runways, that have strong hangars, strong facilities, and included in which — families live on installations as well — to ensure we have top-notch housing. So, you'll see me reaching across all those areas, but importantly enough, making sure that those installations have the right power is critical. Our adversaries have declared their intent and have the capacity to go after our critical infrastructure, and that's the one thing that keeps me up at night: making sure that we have critical redundancies and opportunities to if somebody comes after our infrastructure tries to cut our power, we have redundant capabilities, that our control systems are cyber hardened. And you mentioned earlier, both kinetic and cyber threats. So roughly in the past two decades, as China has modernized our CENTCOM theater has really shaped an environment in which CONUS installations are under threat a little bit, but not entirely. We could be relatively confident that Grand Forks would be generally safe from ISIS from a major attack. In Great Power Competition, all of that goes out the window. Our adversaries, to include Russia and China, know how to go after critical infrastructure. They know how to employ cyber capabilities, and that's why we've got to make sure that we are pursuing cyber hardened energy control systems that protect you from those threats, and the ability to island from the local grid when we need to. So, here's one thing we're doing. I'm on a march over the next five years to bring 20 or so micro grids across our most critical installations. A micro grid — it's kind of like a power bar. You plug it in the wall and you can plug in renewable energy, you plug in wind, geo, you know, all kinds of things into that — solar — to build critical redundancies. So ultimately, building those redundancies allows you to harden your capabilities at the installation and micro-reactors give you the ability to manage and distribute power where you need it. Now we can also put in battery storage. So, battery storage allows you to — when the balloon goes up, boom, put in a firewall with the local community and get the jets out of town. Keep your employed in-place mission moving and build critical redundancies. Then once the jets are out of town, plug back in and share that power with a local community, because we know that our adversaries are going to be driving civil disruption to affect the efficiency of our installations as well, too. So that dynamic is really complex. Naviere Walkewicz Wow, and the time is compressed. Dr. Chaudhary And the time is compressed, so we won't have time to react as quickly. So, we've got to prepare for an all-new environment in our installations. And it goes right back to the Hap Arnold quote. We've got to make sure that they're ready to ensure our operations are effective. And I was recently at Eielson Air Force Base, and what we're doing at Eielson is really novel. We're going to put in a small, modular micro-reactor, a small baby nuclear reactor. Naviere Walkewicz Is there a small version of that? Dr. Chaudhary Yeah, there is a small version, but it hadn't been developed yet, and we decided that we're going to push on with this new capability and bring it to Eielson Air Force Base. The key is to now — back in the day, we used to do something, proof it military-wise, and then see if it's viable in the in the commercial market, right? Not anymore. We're going to do it all concurrently. So, we're going to pursue a Nuclear Regulatory Commission license. We've been engaging the local community. They love it, including tribal nations, who know that power advantages are going to be important for sharing in the community. And so that will be the first micronuclear reactor in any installation. We're looking to award in the spring or sooner, and then get this thing up and running in 2027. Why is this important at Eielson? And you're like, “Whoa, it's way up in Alaska.” Eielson is a critical entry point for the INDOPACOM theater. Naviere Walkewicz I was gonna say, where it's located… Dr. Chaudhary It's where the one of the highest concentrations of our 5th-gen fighter force is at. It's where we do air defense, and it's where our mobility forces will be moving from Fort Wainwright all the way down range. So that's a critical node, and there's a few more of those that we've got to really, really stay focused on. So, energy and, by the way, a happy Energy Action Month as well. This month is Energy Action Month where we're looking at how we can improve power consumption across our Air Force and be more efficient. And bringing these micro-grids online is going to be a crucial, crucial aspect of that. Naviere Walkewicz 42:07 Well, something I've learned about you is that you're not afraid to push the envelope, push the speed, but do it, like you said, concurrently and to find some solutions. And I don't know that there's anyone else that could do it just like are you're doing it. Dr. Chaudhary 42:19 It's not me, it's my team. I have an incredible team of folks that refuse to accept anything [less] than excellence in our department. In fact, we have a saying in our organization that, “We eat no for breakfast.” So, I dare you to tell us no and that we can't do something. One of our coolest announcements recently that we were told “no” to for roughly three years, was a new apartment complex at Edwards Air Force Base. So, some folks may not know this, but Edwards Air Force Space is very isolated, and it's located in the desert, and so it takes roughly 45 minutes to get to the base once you get through the gate. And so, isolation of our military members, especially our junior enlisted, has been around for roughly four decades or more. And when we said, “Hey, let's do a venture-backed business model that allows us to bring state of the art departments not in MILCOM timeline like right now, timeline…” And so, we just announced an all-new venture commercial apartment complex that we just broke ground on, and we're going to start building, hopefully done by 2026 and these are timelines that allow us to move the Air Force forward aggressively. Another thing that we're doing is, I just announced a $1.1 billion investment in our dormitories and CDCs. As you know, quality of life is so critical. Back to this: If we're going to be, say that we're the number, have the number one installations in the world, we've got to live up to it, and that means our families need that too, as well. So, you've heard a lot about the GAO reports, everything from mold to decrepit housing. We're going to fix that, we're going to get ahead of it, and we're going to stay ahead of it. And so that's why our secretary, in our most recent president's budget, announced this. All we need is a budget now, yeah, and so, so our secretary is pressing hard for that, and we know that once that budget is approved, we can get working on these things and start changing quality of life and start upping our game in our installations. Naviere Walkewicz 44:23 Well, I'm gonna take one of those leadership nuggets as “just eat no for breakfast,” but we're gonna learn more about your final takeaway lessons. Before we do that with you. Dr Chaudhary, I wanna thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. The podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio, and it's available on all your favorite podcast platforms, watch or listen to all episodes of Long Blue Leadership at longblueleadership.org. Dr Chaudhary, this has been incredible. If you might leave our listeners with one thing, what would you like to share with them when it comes to leadership, or maybe just some lessons or anything about you that you'd like to share? Dr. Chaudhary 44:57 Love what you do. Love our nation. I love my country because it's given me and my family everything. And I want everybody to believe that, you know, sometimes we get in these periods where we feel divided right across the spectrum, and it doesn't matter what your affiliation is, sometimes you just feel that. But I want folks to remember that America is not about what goes on entirely in Washington. It's about neighbors. It's about what you do for your neighbors. And to me, that's our biggest strength as a nation. You know, many years ago, our forefathers felt that the values of equality, fair treatment and self-determination would be enough to topple an empire, and it is. We should believe that too, and I want everybody to know that. So, it's an honor to be here. But before I go, I want to say thank you for just an intriguing hour. It's an honor to be here, and I want to give you my personal challenge coin… Naviere Walkewicz Oh my goodness… Dr. Chaudhary …and say thank you so much. It embodies a lot of what we do, military family housing, airfields, of course our beautiful 5th-gen fighter aircraft and our wind power and capabilities as a symbol of what we've got to do for installation school. Naviere Walkewicz 46:16 That is an honor, sir. Thank you. Thank you so much. Oh my goodness, thank you. Dr. Chaudhary 46:20 It was a great hour, and just a pleasure to spend time with… Naviere Walkewicz 46:26 It was my pleasure. There's so much I wanted ask you and I know we're limited on time … Is there anything we can do for you? Dr. Chaudhary 46:36 Just keep doing what you do. Keep making sure that our grads out there have a voice, have a say, and can contribute to all this institution has to offer our nation. And so, you're doing it, and I can't thank you enough for it. Naviere Walkewicz 46:49 Thank you very much. KEYWORDS Air Force, Dr. Ravi Chaudhary, leadership, installations, energy, community service, innovation, military, great power competition, sustainability, Air Force Academy, leadership, aviation, innovation, energy solutions, GPS, pilot training, military standards, personal growth, resilience MORE FROM DR. CHAUDHARY ON THE FOR THE ZOOMIES PODCAST with C1C ANDREW CORMIER '25 The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
Brian Campbell, Assistant Vice President for Athletics Development at the University of Miami, shares his journey from growing up in Columbus, Ohio, to becoming a leader in athletics fundraising, his experiences as a cadet at the Air Force Academy, the challenges he faced, and the resilience he developed. SUMMARY In this conversation, Brian Campbell, Assistant Vice President for Athletics Development at the University of Miami, shares his journey from growing up in Columbus, Ohio, to becoming a leader in athletics fundraising. He discusses his experiences as a cadet at the Air Force Academy, the challenges he faced, and the resilience he developed. Brian emphasizes the importance of leadership, surrounding oneself with great people, and the impact of private investment in athletics. He also reflects on his transition from military to civilian life and his current role in shaping the future of athletics at UM. OUR TOP 5 FAVORITE QUOTES "I think it's important to be really authentic with people, and that has worked. It's worked well for me, especially when those decisions are consistent with being authentic to what we're trying to accomplish." "I think a lot about the elements that we put into it, because it's hard on a daily basis to know if you're doing a good job being a leader, but if you take those pieces of the fabric that we learned at the Academy, and you keep doing it the right way and thinking about these things and surrounding yourself by people with with surrounding yourself with people of those kinds of values, and people that you can take little pieces of what they do and try to try to bring them with You. I think it's the right road." "I don't think I've arrived as a leader and I but I started to think that I probably that I would be willing to bet that General Clark might say the same thing, and Coach Calhoun might say the same thing. So I think it's always a work in process." "If you take those pieces of the fabric that we learned at the Academy, and you keep doing it the right way and thinking about these things and surrounding yourself by people with with surrounding yourself with people of those kinds of values, and people that you can take little pieces of what they do and try to try to bring them with You. I think it's the right road." "I think it's always a work in process, but I think it's important to be really authentic with people, and that has worked. It's worked well for me, especially when those decisions are consistent with being authentic to what we're trying to accomplish." - Brian Campbell '08, the Long Blue Leadership Podcast SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK | LINKEDIN CHAPTERS 00:00: Introduction to Brian Campbell 02:52: Growing Up in Columbus and Early Athletic Influences 06:14: The Journey to the Air Force Academy 08:59: Life as a Cadet: Challenges and Resilience 11:53: Leadership Lessons from the Academy 15:10: Transitioning from Military to Civilian Life 18:06: Fundraising and Philanthropy in Athletics 21:00: The Kutra Legacy Center: A Personal Connection 23:53: Current Role at the University of Miami 27:06: Leadership Philosophy and Key Takeaways TAKEAWAYS Brian's journey highlights the importance of resilience in overcoming challenges. Authenticity in leadership fosters trust and connection with others. Surrounding yourself with talented individuals can enhance personal growth. Private investment plays a crucial role in the success of athletic programs. Experiences at the Air Force Academy shape leadership philosophies. Fundraising in athletics is about building relationships and trust. Transitioning from military to civilian life requires adaptability and networking. The Kutra Legacy Center represents a significant investment in future cadets. Leadership is a continuous journey of learning and growth. Engaging with alumni can create impactful opportunities for current students. ABOUT BRIAN CAMPBELL '08BIO Brian Campbell '08 joined the University of Miami in May of 2023 as Assistant Vice President for Athletics Development. In this role, Brian has oversight of fundraising operations, programs, and the development team for Miami Athletics. Brian came to UM from his alma mater, the United States Air Force Academy, where he had spent the previous five years, beginning in 2018 as the Assistant Athletic Director for Development and finishing as the Executive Director of Development for Strategic Programs and Athletic Giving. At Air Force, Brian was responsible for the fundraising strategy and execution for athletic capital projects, endowments, and major giving, in addition to other revenue generating initiatives. He also served as the liaison to the Air Force Academy Foundation Board of Director's Athletic Committee. The academy experienced unprecedented fundraising success during Brian's time at USAFA – most notably completing a $270 million campaign nearly 18-months ahead of schedule, headlined by multiple record-breaking years of fundraising. As part of the campaign, Brian led a $37.5 million fundraising effort to support the $90+ million modernization of the east side of Falcon Stadium. Additionally, he managed the philanthropic component of a $500 million public-private partnership to develop a new hotel and visitors center outside USAFA's north gate. Other accomplishments during this stretch included a lead gift to launch the renovation of Air Force's baseball venue, Falcon Field, and building the Wayne Baughman Wrestling Endowment, which seeks to provide operational funding for Air Force Wrestling in perpetuity. Brian brings 15 years of organizational leadership experience to UM from multiple sectors. He rose to the rank of captain in the US Air Force, then climbed to the partner level at Anheuser-Busch InBev where he led the sales and marketing efforts for the Northwest region, including several of the largest sports and entertainment partnerships in the portfolio. In each of the communities he's lived in, Brian has supported local initiatives – serving on the boards of the National Football Foundation of Colorado, the Missouri Veterans Initiative, and the Boys and Girls Club of Alton, Illinois. He was a football student-athlete at the Air Force Academy and earned his MBA from the Olin Business School at Washington University in St. Louis. - Copy Credit: University of Miami CONNECT WITH BRIAN LINKEDIN ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates! FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Guest, Brian Campbell '08 | Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz 00:00 My guest today is the Assistant Vice President for Athletics Development, Brian Campbell, USAFA, class of 2008. Brian joined the University of Miami in 2023 as Assistant Vice President for Athletics Development, where he oversees all fundraising for UM Athletics. In 2018 he served as Assistant Athletic Director for Development for Air Force Athletics, ultimately becoming Executive Director of Development for Strategic Programs and Athletic Giving. Brian led several highly successful, multi-million dollar fundraising campaigns, including playing a significant role in securing funding for the Falcon Stadium's newly open Kucera Legacy Center. While at the Academy, Brian was a football cadet-athlete and later earned his MBA from the Olin Business School at Washington University in St. Louis. He also spent five years in sports marketing with Anheuser Busch. We'll talk with Brian about his life as a young athlete, path to the Air Force Academy, his days as a cadet, leadership opportunities, and how he now uses what he learned to lead and positively impact others. Finally, we'll ask Brian to share advice for developing leaders and those in leadership aspiring to reach similar heights in their careers. Brian, welcome to long blue leadership, and thank you for joining us today. Brian Campbell 01:18 Thanks, Naviere. I am honored to be on the podcast, and I'm really happy to be back in Doolittle Hall, albeit remotely, and I want to welcome you to the “U.” Naviere Walkewicz 01:29 Thank you so much. I will take that warm weather. Yeah, well, we're really excited for this. Brian, I think a lot of our listeners love to hear the different paths that our leaders take from getting to the Academy in life after but we like to start by rewinding the clock a little bit. And we'd like to get to know you, Brian, as a young boy. Tell us about what life was like growing up, where you grew up, etc. Brian Campbell 01:51 Yeah. I mean, I was, I grew up mostly in Columbus, Ohio. My family was from California, but my dad's job took us to Columbus when I was young. And you know, as I've reflected back on some of my career and the things that have led me to different spots, I think being a kid from Columbus, and regardless of people's feelings about Ohio State, which tend to be fairly negative here at the my current institution, the lens at which I grew up in was through a place with a massive presence of college athletics, you know, everything, everything in that community, with the fabric was Ohio State. I played every sport growing up. I'm very grateful to have grown up at a time where, you know, we went out in the yard, in the neighborhood, and did everything all day. We figured out our differences in the backyard. There are a couple other guys in the neighborhood who went on to very successful athletic endeavors as well. So, you know, athletics were very important all throughout and then as we got more serious and into competitive things later on, they become, you know, more and more formal. But you know, sports and the community were tied together, and they very much provided the context at which my career followed. Naviere Walkewicz 03:14 That's awesome. So, you're really into sports. Did you have siblings as well? Or where was your neighborhood? Kind of the sibling playground for you. Brian Campbell 03:22 I have two sisters both swam in college, although if one of them listens to this, I think she had like a cup of coffee on the swim team and realized that the rest of the extracurricular activities were a little bit more appealing. But my little sister swam all the way through in a very competitive college program. But there were but outside, in the streets and in the yard were where we spent our time. We would change by season. So, in the fall, we play football in the yard, and then the winter, you know, you'd shovel off and play basketball, and then in the summer, we'd play baseball. So, so all of the above. Naviere Walkewicz 04:01 I love that. And I noticed you didn't say you ever went to the pool, so I'm sure that your sisters could definitely outswim you. Brian Campbell 04:06 I went to the pool too. There was plenty of swimming in our family. Naviere Walkewicz 04:12 Wonderful. So, you know, life as a child, you were really into athletics, and I think it developed your sense of competitor, you know, being a competitor about and winning. But also, it's probably teamwork. You know, what other things as a child could you share with our listeners about what it was like for you in Ohio? Brian Campbell 04:32 I think all the above. I think, you know, when you have to work things out. You know, we weren't an era then the kids had cell phones or anything like that. You had to knock on someone's door, see if you could form a team, get out in the front yard and go take care of things. But yeah, we did stuff really. I mean, I'm kind of thinking back to one of my neighbors who went on to play some college football. He one time he broke his leg in the yard and kept playing. Naviere Walkewicz Oh my goodness. Brian Campbell Yeah, but, you know, you learn to get along with other people. You know the saying of taking your ball and going home, that's, you know, you have to figure out how to get past those things. And I think the social dynamic that you gain from those experiences very much stayed with me, and I think is some of the foundation and the work that I do now, and being able to identify with different people in different situations. Naviere Walkewicz 05:28 Alright, so I like what you're sharing about kind of you know, the social aspect that you've experienced growing up. Tell me about how it the Academy came into the picture. Then was it, was there someone that you grew up learning from that went to the Air Force Academy. Or how did that happen? Brian Campbell 05:46 Well, as a sophomore in high school, as I was thinking of thinking back to some of these things, my dad actually took me to visit West Point, and we had a family friend who went to school there, and I remember going to visit him, and he was probably getting close to maybe in the summer before his senior year, and I remember him like getting pulled aside, and there was something that he had been doing wrong. Maybe. Is it related to escorting guests around the campus? It was during Sandhurst, and so we watched Sandhurst, and honestly, I remember thinking like this does not seem like any way to spend college, but as I went back, I was very fortunate to have like really, really good coaches in my life who were very interested in developing me and growing me and pushing out of my comfort zone. My high school football coach was very hard on me at times, but I think he saw something in me. And you know, when I began to look at colleges, and I was thinking about, like, could I play football somewhere? And there was a variety of schools, and I went on, I went on different visits in different places, and I just remember feeling like nowhere really made a lot of sense for me, like I didn't really feel like any of them really fit the things that were important to me. And then I got the chance to go on a visit to the Air Force Academy, and honestly, I was just like, I just, why not go see Colorado? I've never seen the mountains. So we took the trip out, and I was hosted on my visit by Rob McMenamin, who recently, unfortunately passed away, but was like just the greatest person you know, that could have possibly, that I could have come across at that time, and between him and the people I met on my visit, it was more about the fact that I felt like I was at home, and I had found a group of people that seemed so similar to me that I ended up deciding that that's what I wanted to do. Now we got back to Columbus, and my mom wanted me to talk to someone who didn't play football, and so they somehow found some other cadet, and I had, she's like, “You have to call him and ask him.” So, I called this guy, and I don't even remember his name. We'll see if he listens to the podcast. But he told me he's like, “I don't, I wouldn't do it, you know?” He's like, “It's, it's brutal, it's really hard.” And, oh, wow, I just don't think. But I got off the phone, and it didn't matter to me, like and so for me, it was, maybe it was just a feeling. It was the excitement of being part of something like that. I think I did understand how important the academies are, and what a serious opportunity that was. And maybe it was the fact that I never really thought I would have an opportunity to go to a place like that, but once I, it just kind of sat right, you know, I decided to pursue it. Naviere Walkewicz 08:48 I love that. And I think what was really key about what you said was it felt like family or you're finding others that are like you. And so how did your parents respond to that? I mean, I think I love that your mom said, “Let's look at both sides.” Let's get everything you know, a perspective that's beyond athletics as well. And so, it's kind of a testament to, probably your upbringing, the fact that your parents are like, let's make some really sound decisions. Would you say that that's the case? Brian Campbell 09:17 Yeah, I think once my mom got over the fact that it was a military academy. I mean, she asked the one of the coaches that came to our house, like, “What's, what happens afterwards?”, you know, but what was instilled in me at a young age, and when we that, my mom valued education a lot, and so that was, that was in me, and candidly, it was probably the best educational opportunity I was going to have, and it was the best athletic opportunity I was going to have. So those two things were really important. I mean, when we got to the Air Force Academy, I remember my dad being like, “Holy cow, this is a really big deal.” And, you know, I just, I sometimes think back to those times. Times where you know before you go through it, and you see the full grind and all the things that are required, you know, to go through our school, you forget how cool it is from the outside, and the mystique and the things that make it so unique. And I remember, I just remember all that and, and obviously the football piece was a big deal, despite how my football career ended up going to be, to be offered an opportunity to be a part of something like that. Just the weight was, you know, it was so significant, it outweighed any other opportunity I had. Naviere Walkewicz 10:37 That's wonderful. So, let's talk about that transition then. So, you came to the Academy, you recruited football for what position? Brian Campbell 10:46 Tight end. Naviere Walkewicz 10:47 Tight end, awesome. And so, what was, do you remember day one? What was it like coming to the Academy for the second time after your recruiting visit? Brian Campbell 10:55 Yeah. So, you know, as I think back to my time as a cadet, I mean, the things that really weave through everything are the relationships, and it's interesting. I don't know when we'll broadcast this, but right now we're 4 and 0 here. We just beat South Florida and because we're not for here right now. But okay, that doesn't feel good to me either. But you know, when I was, when I was there, I had a call on the way to Tampa with the first person I met on my recruiting visit at Southgate, when they were trying to figure out how to get us on the base., Naviere Walkewicz Really. Brian Campbell Yeah, and it's just, you know, it's completely normal, you know, or, you know, it's not like we're out of touch. But like that, I talked to that person and the person I spent the day with Saturday before the game was the person that I roomed with in basic training and I still talk to the people that I'm very close with every day. But you know, to this day, the two people I probably met first were, I mean, we're just a very significant amount of time last week. So, I mean, I remember everything. I remember going down the shot line, getting all the things in my arm, and then the blazing hot scissors or whatever they put on our head and everything and then I remember standing in the hallway, but I honestly had no idea what was happening. And I'll never forget that the next morning, when they come and start pounding down the doors, and like, my hands were shaking and they're yelling about, like, BD us. And I was like, “What on earth is a BDU?” And then, you know, I'm like, looking around, trying to figure out what people are going to put on. And then the guy that I was telling you about that I just saw in Tampa, you know, he was a Navy Junior ROTC, so he starts saying, like, sir to people. And like, you know, all chaos broke loose, and we were off and running. Naviere Walkewicz 12:54 Wow. Well, I could say that your roommate was helpful, but until he said, “Ill sir.”, that might not have been too helpful for you. Yeah, he wasn't running. Brian Campbell 13:02 Yeah, he wasn't. He wasn't all that helpful. Naviere Walkewicz 13:05 Wow. So off you went into your four-degree year. What was life like as a cadet for you? I mean, I think you know, you obviously were in football and you were having to do all the academics. So, let's talk about that experience a little bit. Brian Campbell 13:20 Yeah. I mean, the Academy was really hard for me, you know, as the first place where I was around so many talented people, and probably at a different you know, a lot of them were at a different stage in their journey than I think I was. I was really trying to figure things out as I went. You know, I kind of hit some bumps in the road with my health. And, you know, like anybody that your four-degree years, really, really difficult. And, you know, I showed up, I was probably about, you know, 220 pounds. And they, you know, were eating and eating and eating to try to get bigger. And I think I went home for like, winter break, I was already, like, 250 and, and so, you know, I don't know where things would have gone from there, but that spring of my four-degree year, I started to have some health problems and, and it took them a long time to figure out what was going on. And I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease, and I had lost like, 60 pounds by that point, and it was a really, really difficult period for me, because I was trying to get through school and academics. I tried to keep playing football. Eventually I had to, you know, step away for a little bit and figure out my health. But I learned in that time, a doctor said, like, you can't have Crohn's disease and be in the Air Force. And I remember walking out of the cadet clinic, and I took the elevator up by McDermott, and because it was a doctor's appointment, it's like, everybody's in class, so the place is completely quiet. And I walked out, and it was like just a crystal clear day, like the sky couldn't have been more blue above the Chapel and the Air Gardens are on, and I'm like, I don't want to leave here, you know. And I think that changed my perspective on the entire experience. And it was a really meaningful time for me, because I realized that the things that had already happened there and in a difficult first year were, had made a big impact on me, and I had some, I got some guidance from some other graduates, and they helped me navigate them, the medical process a little bit, and I was able to stay and I just wanted to be there long enough to graduate. And I was fortunate enough to have a little bit more. I managed to blow out both my knees after that. Naviere Walkewicz Oh my goodness! Brian Campbell Yeah, both ACLs a year apart. So, I kept trying to do stuff, and it kept not working. But, you know, to be a part of the program and the relationships that I have from that, I mean, they still mean the world, even though, even though it was a little bit of a bumpy ride, right? Naviere Walkewicz 16:03 So, your path, it looked a little different, probably from what you imagined coming to the Academy, especially growing up as the ultra-athlete. You know every sport for every season. Tell us about a little bit how you dealt with some of those challenges, because I think some of our listeners will experience things in life that kind of derail them from what they view as this is my path. And how did you keep your head above the fray and stay in a positive light, I guess, or maybe you didn't. What did that look like as you dealt with each of those challenges throughout the Academy? Brian Campbell 16:38 Yeah, I mean, I think you learn in basic training there in hard times that you just are making it to the next meal. And I think for me, there was a stretch where I where I did that, and I look back now, and I feel like maybe because of that, there were things the academy offered that I wasn't able to take advantage of. But at the time, you know, I was so focused on just getting through the next thing and being able to kind of maintain my place there. But I think whether I knew it at the time or not, it built a significant resiliency in me, and I was not going to quit. I mean, if they were going to get rid of me, they were going to get rid of me, but I was not going to quit, and I was going to figure out a way to do it. And I think those are, those are elements that are very important in in what I've become and you know how I how I handle things to this day, if you can get through our school and if in everybody has challenges, and everybody has different things in their lives that they face. That's mine just happened to be health related, but I was very fortunate to have a huge support network. I had a great group of friends there. I mean, I had people who were who were rooting for me to be able to be successful and because of that, I was able to, I was able to continue to proceed through it, and all those elements were important for me in being able to do it. Naviere Walkewicz 18:10 Now that's really, I think, insightful about you, and I think a testament to everyone just kind of finding something next to get to, like, in our case, it was getting to the next meal in basic, you know, you talked about being involved in sports and then having some of these health challenges. What did leadership look like for you at the Academy? Did you find yourself in certain roles where you were leading cadets? Or what did that look like? Brian Campbell 18:37 Yeah, I mean, maybe this is if any cadets listen. You know, I was not in any, like, significant leadership positions as a cadet. I had, I think, what you would call some of the standard squadron jobs. And as I kind of reflect on, like, what I was learning about myself, you know, I think I tried to do a good job in those but, but, you know, I think I learned that there are formal leadership positions and then there's informal leadership. And what I don't think I appreciated was that, you know, you can still have impact on the people around you, whether or not you know the role dictates it, or your rank dictates it. I recall one time, you know, if you remember the squadron rankings, and we had gone from, like, second to 35th or something like that, and we had the equivalent of what would be like a players only meeting, where they said we were off in the S.A.R., like, trying to figure out, like, why we were in. And really, what you're driven by is there aren't going to be any passes to go anywhere, because at least at that time, it was directly related to how you were doing. And a lot of people talked, and there are a lot of opinions, and I remember finally feeling like I should say something, and I and I talked, and I just remember thinking like everyone seems to be listening. And I kind of noted that at that time, that I wasn't the squadron commander or anything like that, but it seemed like people valued my opinion, and it seemed like it resonated with a large swath of our squadron. And I think I take that with me now, because I believe there's kind of a meritocracy of ideas. You know, we all have rank in our organization, whether it's the military or whether it's something completely different. There's always different people who have different levels of authority. But, you know, I think great teams value ideas that come, that come from anybody. Naviere Walkewicz 20:38 I think that is just a really important piece of information that you shared, because many times we have some of our developing leaders who may feel that they don't have the ability to share a thought because they think that they're too Junior. And so, what you just said, I think, was really powerful and hopefully empowering for some of our listeners to bring something to the table when they have something to share. So, I really appreciate you sharing that example. That was awesome. So, before we go into graduation, and what that looked like after you graduated, were there any specific people I know you said you had a great network of support. But were there any real like, inspirational leaders that kind of helped shaped you after you left the Academy, or right before you left into your life after the Academy? Brian Campbell 21:31 Yeah, absolutely. I think that one thing that like means a lot to me are the people that I'm exposed to. I mean, I remember thinking a lot of General Rosa, who was our superintendent at the time. He guided the Academy through a difficult time. My four-degree AOC was just an outstanding leader, Joe Richardson. I have no idea what became of him, but, you know, in a tough year, it was like, every time we went in to our, you know, meet with our squadron, it was always like he had the right thing to say, and his presence was so strong, and we had some bumps in the road in our group that year, and he did everything he could to navigate through it. But, you know, he was, he was the kind of person who was, like, just a strong, inspirational type, type leader, and we needed that. I mean, you know, such a tough year, but you really felt like he was able to give us the energy and the courage to keep going for it, but he was also someone I think we all looked up to. And if you haven't been around the military a lot in your life, and you can see people like he went to our school and look at the kind of person he is now. That's a direction you hope you can follow. And then a completely other style was just being around Coach Deberry who wore his heart on his sleeve and said everything he wanted to say, and it came all out of love and passion. And he just he had that kind of style, and he built an organization that was really family centric and that was important to him. And then even my senior year, when I was just kind of like helping the staff in some different roles there, like when Coach Calhoun came in, it was a completely different style and tactic that he took. So I mean, the great thing about the Academy, I think we all talk about it a lot, is that you're exposed to leadership, you're exposed to cadet leaders, and you see how you respond to those things, too, and you take note of those as you grow, but we have some people who are also, like, very, very, you know, bona fide leaders that we had access to, and that would just be like the beginning of my list. I think now that makes sense. Naviere Walkewicz 23:53 I'm sure the list is long because of just the exposure that you've had in different in different ways. So, when you graduated, what career field did you go into? Brian Campbell 24:04 So I went into acquisitions, and my guidance from one of the doctors at the Academy there was, what can we do to take the least amount of grad physicals? So that's what I did. Naviere Walkewicz 24:16 I was going to ask if that was what your passion was. But it sounds like it well, it teed off into something really well for you, and it also played well into your needs. Brian Campbell 24:26 For sure, it did. It led me to things down the line, you know, Acquisitions. For me, it was an opportunity to be a part of a great organization. And there were parts of the Air Force that I valued. I also took note that that was probably not the thing that was going to excite me the most, and but I learned a lot about how, how kind of the business side of the Air Force works. And it was, it was still a great experience. I got to go all over the world. I got to be a part of a lot of really cool things that probably even at that age, I didn't really appreciate. I think the challenge for me in that particular career field is that you weren't really around a lot of active-duty Air Force members. And I think I missed that piece a little bit. Naviere Walkewicz 25:13 Well, I think it's interesting, because one of the things that you've been able to do, I think, is find ways to give back in your career post, you know, military service, so that's probably been really rewarding for you. Can we talk a little bit about, you know, when you decided to transition out of the military? Because we do have listeners that both stay in uniform all the way through retirement and those who don't, who think about transitioning. So, I think it's really relevant. How did you come to that decision, and what did it look like for you? Brian Campbell 25:44 Well, the Air Force came to the decision for me. So, I was going to PCS to my next station, and I'll never forget when the phone rang in my squadron commander's office. He came. It was like I knew what was going to happen, and the clock had run out on this whole Crohn's disease thing, and I was going to see a medical board and all that, all that kind of stuff. I ended up just saying that that's okay and I'll, I'm not. It was going to be like a year until I could go through that process, which didn't seem like very prudent at the time. I knew I was kind of proverbially playing with house money at that point, I was just so glad to have had my time in the Air Force and to be a part of the organization, you know, at least get to be a captain, but I didn't even fulfill my service commitment. So, it's really about the four and a half year point that that happened. And so, it was a little sudden, because I didn't know that that was going to happen. And so, I decided to kind of step away from the career field the you know, from work, I guess, altogether, and go to business school full time. So I went back to my desk, and I went through all the I got on US News and World Report and started going down the list of business schools and finding out who still had an application deadline available. And like three of the top 25 responded. And from there, I was able to do that. But the great thing for me was that I was able to spend two years away in a fully immersive environment, learning about the business side of management, which is different than the Air Force leadership style that we have in the in the military, and putting those two things together and thinking about some of my initial aspirations of, you know, maybe there's A career in sports. What might that look like? And you just get so, so many opportunities there to get exposed to people in different career fields. And those two years at “Wash U” for me were, were, I'm very, very fortunate to have those. They had a target of getting 10% of the class to be veterans, so I called the right school at the right time, and they were like, hey, just we'll help you. We'll help you figure this out. And they did everything they could to give me that opportunity. Naviere Walkewicz 28:10 That's amazing. And I was going to ask, did you see the value of what you'd experienced at the Academy coming to play in your program there, that you were able to share with others, and what did leadership look like for you there? Brian Campbell 28:23 Yeah, so, you know, in business school, it's a constant. I think balance between everything is about shareholder maximization and wealth creation, and they have to teach you those fundamentals. I think Olin did a good job reminding us about character-based management and leadership, and we had classes about critical decisions in leadership and management and things like that. And they brought some very senior business leaders in to talk about key inflection points of things that they had, and then, you know, we had, there's a professor there whose areas, area of study is, you know, economics with a higher purpose, and that's blending, like, how does being doing the right thing, and having something that's beyond just, you know, running your operation to the most efficient manner possible, and he's been able to show that organizations who do that and have a higher purpose are more successful. And so, for me, that is kind of the philosophy that I moved forward with in my career. So very different, very business fundamentals, but as you got towards the end, it was important to them that we understood that it wasn't always everything. Wasn't always about the near-term dollar and that things could your organizations are rewarded for doing the right thing and making decisions in the right way. Naviere Walkewicz 30:00 Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like you absolutely picked the right program that really aligned with your own core values, you know, your own kind of, I think, navigational system as well as you know where you're wanting to go with things. So, what did that look like? Then, after you graduated, I know you spent some time at Anheuser Busch. Was that kind of just the next part of that journey? Brian Campbell 30:20 Yeah, so I wanted to get back into sports right away, and so I started a networking process of I tried to meet with NFL teams. I didn't, I just didn't know how or what I was going to do, but I knew that that was my opportunity, a mentor of mine that I did a project for while I was at all. And he well, first of all, I started to find out also what jobs in sports pay. So, anybody listening to this guy's aspirations, just get that part settled for yourself right away. But it didn't matter to me. But I did have a bill I needed to figure out from business school. And his recommendation was, you know, you're down the street from essentially the biggest sports marketer in the world, you know, go there, you know, pursue that, and then figure out down the line if you still want to come back. And that ended up being the perfect step for me. You know, not only did I go to a place that ended up being a bridge back into this work, but Anheuser Busch, and the way that company is run is incredibly efficient and driven and lean and everything there is about value, and it's run by a set of Investment bankers who brought their philosophies into consumer goods, and, and, and they're extremely market share based, but it was, it was really cool to be a part of an organization that does things that way. And candidly, it was probably the other end of the spectrum than just being in the military. And both should operate in the way that they do, but that was such a valuable experience for me to work for an organization like that. I could not have done it forever. So, and I did get over into sports marketing, I ended up having what I think a lot of people would think is like maybe the coolest job of all time. I had the chance to run our whole northwest marketing portfolio. So, I had, you know, our Broncos partnerships and Vail Resorts. It took me back to Colorado to be in that office from, from being in New York City, we had the Seahawks, but it also we had a little college down the street that we had a partnership with called the Air Force Academy. Naviere Walkewicz 32:39 I was wondering, how you direct to Colorado? That's where it was, yeah. Brian Campbell 32:43 So, we had an office in Denver, and after a few years of doing that, Anheuser-Busch wants you to move around. They want you to grow. You can't stay in a lot of these jobs forever. And so, I knew there was a point where if I really wanted to do this, and I still felt such a calling to come and do this kind of work, and I kind of felt like I'd never forgive myself if I didn't try. So, I started making a lot of calls and knocking down doors. And eventually, eventually, a position opened back at the Academy, and I, like borderline forced them to hire me, Naviere Walkewicz 33:15 Brian, I'm seeing a theme. I mean, as a kid, you would knock down doors come play. You know, when you were, got out of the military, when you were when you had to go, you were knocking down doors, “What's open for me?” So, I think the theme for you is, don't be afraid to knock down some doors and just see what's available. You went back to the Academy. Let's talk about your time there and what kind of evolved since then. Brian Campbell 33:39 So, I came back to the Academy, we had a had the chance to learn a little bit about raising money in our athletic department, and we were coming up on a campaign like the first real significant campaign that had happened at the at the Air Force Academy. I mean, before I got back, I didn't even really know what a campaign was, to give people some context and where I was there, but General Gould said, “Hey, we're going to do this project on Falcon Stadium.” And, you know, and I thought to myself, hey, if I'm going to be here at the Academy, I need to be a part of this project. And so, I transitioned from our athletic department over to our foundation in about in 20-, early 2020, and had the chance to work on the projects that were that were happening there. Naviere Walkewicz 34:27 So, I think this is helpful. Many of our listeners may not be aware of the ways that some of our foundations support the Academy, and I think through athletics is certainly one way. Can you talk a little bit about what that looks like, so that we can share more about the context of a campaign and giving back? Brian Campbell 34:45 Yeah, I mean, I think my, my reflection on it is like the government's going to do enough to keep the doors open and provide a basic, solid experience. I think the US News and World Report rankings came out like today, we're number two. We're not number two without private investment. And I hear a lot from young grads about like they're asking me for money. They're asking me for money, and what they're asking you for is to invest in the experience and for us and on our resumes and the prevalence of our of our institution, and this is a competitive world that stuff matters and allows us at the Academy to keep professors that the government wouldn't necessarily be able to keep, to give very enriching research opportunities to cadets that otherwise I don't think we're really there when we were around. And it allows us, you know, militarily and then athletically, to be competitive at the highest level. And you know, when we say excellence in all we do, we're talking about being, you know, excellent in every facet of this of the Academy. And so, we're very fortunate that people have stepped forward at the Academy to invest in these areas and help us shape what they what they've created, and what they've become. And so private investment is a, is a real factor in our success there. And I got the chance to be in the middle of it and have a lot of those discussions and meet people who wanted to help. And it's an opportunity for them to kind of, you know, provide their passion or something they're particularly interested in, to shape the experience of the cadets. So, it's a very enriching process, and it's a really wonderful thing to be a part of. Naviere Walkewicz 36:47 Well, I can share that, you know, I had the ability to work with you briefly when you came here, and then I joined in 2021 and there was so much that I learned. But I think what was really rewarding for me was to understand that to what you just said, you can actually invest in ways that you feel really compelled and what's important to you at the Academy. And so maybe you can share with our listeners what was something really rewarding, aside from the Kucera Legacy Center coming to life now, and we can talk about that. But what was something really rewarding to you that you were part of in the philanthropic side of our business? Brian Campbell 37:20 Yeah, I mean not just being a fundraiser there, but I mean the chance to give myself and make the commitments that I could to the Academy that meant a lot to me to be able to help, but I enjoyed seeing like the little grassroots campaigns that were put together that gave cadets reprieve from life and rewarded them for different things. You know, NCLS is an amazing thing that happens there, that you get to take a step back from every year and appreciate the kind of people we bring back and put in front of the cadets. So, I mean, aside from the big projects, there's just stuff every single day, and you get emails from the cadets and ask like, “Hey, can we do this? Can we, what would it take to change our squadron to something else?” And you can help weigh out a little plan. And those aren't the dollars that necessarily drive campaign totals, but they matter because they matter to the cadets and the way that, you know those finances work there it's, you know, so many people have invested in the Foundation and the Association in a way that, you know, all these resources can get directly poured into cadets and because the government keeps the doors open, we can do things that are additionally impactful. You know, at other schools, like where I'm at now, we have to fill an endowment because of how we have to continue to operate the school. So that's not something we, I mean, there's ways that are that's helpful at the Academy too, but it's not as critical at the Academy, because the lights are on and we can be extremely effective in the investments through donors to impact cadets directly. Naviere Walkewicz 39:06 No, that makes sense. I really like what you said about you got to give yourself. And I think part of what I've been picking up in our conversation is a lot of I think giving and investing is through relationships. And so I think some of the biggest pieces that come from that is the trust and relationships you build with people. Would you agree? Is that kind of how you feel about things? Brian Campbell 39:26 Yeah, I do. And I you know, if I didn't go to the Air Force Academy, I'm not sure I would be doing this kind of work, even though the Air Force Academy is not designed to put you into this kind of work. But the relationships that I had from the academy and then throughout my time back there, are as important to me as just about anything you just the school exposes you to just such outstanding people. And I'm just very. Be grateful for, for all of those relationships that, that I've had the privilege to have. Naviere Walkewicz 40:06 So, Brian, we've been talking about the ways we give back and relationships built. Let's, talk a little bit about the Kucera Legacy Center, because we just were able to the ribbon cutting and just beautiful experience with Jack and Vianne. What did it mean to you? Brian Campbell 40:21 You know, being back at the Academy during the time that I was back, and maybe a lot of the people who listen to this maybe know what has happened on our Academy over the last three years, but the investment that's gone back into our school is just staggering. You know, not only the Kucera Legacy Center, but the Madeira Center, the hotel that's going up, the visitors center, the expansion to do it all, but the Kucera Legacy Center was kind of near and dear to my heart, and it was an opportunity given to me to be a really significant part of the entire project. Was one thing that took every piece of the institution to make happen. But it took Jack and Vianne really specifically. And it wasn't just their investment, but it was like a vision from Jack that I think got us through some times, that you know, maybe in years past, the project would not have, would not have continued on. And you know what I'll remember most is not just working on the gift that they made with them, but like working on the elements that were important to them to see in the facility. And the unique thing about that project is it's not just a facility. It is a way that we can invest back into our Academy and cadets. It's one of the few things on the Academy that can be commercialized and a positive return on investment. So, it's going to be used for a lot of things, but I'll never forget of the groundbreaking. Jack does so much for our school. And he was talking about, you know, why he flies Coach Calhoun around to recruit, and for coach, it's hugely helpful for him to get, you know, Division One coaches essentially have to fly in that manner. They have to fly private to be able to recruit effectively. That's a that's not an easy thing for our school to provide, and so Jack flies coach around a lot. And you know, I know Jack wants us to win football games, because I've watched some football games with him, and he's like one of the few people that can match as tense and nervous as I am, but he talked about the fact that everywhere they go, they knock on a door, and Coach Calhoun is giving some young person an opportunity to change their life. And you know, for them, we have this beautiful facility. Now, I can't wait to come back and see it, but I think that's what it is for them, is that's maybe the physical manifestation of their gift is knowing that, you know when, when, when young people accept that opportunity to come to the Air Force Academy, and they probably wouldn't have gotten it for this particular subset without a sport, that they can change their lives. And you know, watch being a part of that, even the small little part that I was is something that I think is a really, really significant part of my career and my journey. Naviere Walkewicz 43:30 Wow. I mean, that's almost a 360 for you, right? You were someone who was given that opportunity, and now thinking about the future cadets that are going to be given a similar opportunity with something that you were part of in such a legacy and visionary manner, from Jack and Vianne. I mean, it's just incredible. Brian Campbell 43:48 Yeah, absolutely. Naviere Walkewicz 43:51 So, Brian, you have taken a role at the University of Miami, and let's talk a little bit about that. So, you were able to do some things here at the Academy. How's it been in the transition for you there at UM? Brian Campbell 44:04 I mean, it's been, it's been crazy. So, you know, we're in the real battle of college athletics down here at a time that's very dynamic. It's an unbelievable opportunity to be a part of a traditional powerhouse with really, really significant aspirations, but a big part of it for me as I had the chance to come down here and work for a really high level team at a time that the school wanted to invest in athletics. And you know, the athletic director that I work for here, he won two national titles at Clemson. We have multiple other former division one athletic directors on our staff, and we do transformational things around this campus through athletics, but for other areas, our medical system and our academic side as well. So, it's been a challenge for me to get to learn the dynamic here. You know, at the Air Force Academy, a lot of people have a lot of thoughts on a lot of things. Miami supporters have a lot of thoughts on one thing, and that's winning football games. But, you know, the fundamentals remain the same, and I've been given a chance to kind of reshape the way we do this work. And for those that follow college athletics, it's been at a very, very fascinating time where there's huge change in the industry. There's a ton of uncertainty, and it's really forced me to think a lot about how we do our work and why we do it. And I think as a lot of people probably think that with Nio and possible rev-share and things like that, that we're losing the fabric of college athletics. There are little instances of that, but we are able to kind of double down on other ways to make an impact on our student athletes here and invest in their lives. So, it's been it's a challenge. We have a lot of work to do, but we're on the road, having some successes is really helpful. And being in a place that has really, really high expectations is really special to be a part of. Naviere Walkewicz 46:16 So, you talked a bit about the fundamentals, and so what have you taken from your time at the Academy throughout your career to bring to UM now? Brian Campbell 46:27 Yeah, I think the noise in college athletics and our work has become more complex. I took the opportunity to kind of distill things back down to the core mission of what we do, and that's to positively impact lives through excellence in athletics and our team, our role in that effort is to is to invest in those areas. So, we focus on, you know, kind of three key areas to do that. One of them is performance, kind of elite performance. The next one is what we call champions for life, which is investing in academics and in student athlete development. And then the last one is competitive excellence, and that's acknowledging that there's an area now with Nio and possible revenue share with athletes that we also have to be competitive in. But I've encouraged our team to think about, like, what the real purpose of our work is, and like what we do every day. And I think I kind of touched on a little bit of that earlier, when things got really confusing in the industry and stuff like that, understanding that, like our job really is simply to enrich an experience for our student athletes here, and best prepare them for the world. And if we do that really well, we're going to be really successful. And when we talk about that purpose on our team, you know, I try to find people to join our team who are going to resonate with that. And for me, I think when you identify with that purpose and kind of the core elements of it, it also makes me better at what I do, and better at leading and being authentic with the team that there are challenges but in there, and we're in a we're in an environment with headwinds and high expectations and high levels of competitiveness. But if we can focus on doing those things, we're going to make we're going to make every bit the kind of impact that has always been made in college athletics. Naviere Walkewicz 48:33 So, what have you learned about yourself as a leader throughout this journey? It sounds like you've had just various opportunities to understand who you are in different roles. How does that translate in your leadership? What does that look like to our listeners? Brian Campbell 48:49 Yeah, I think what I've learned over time is that in the Air Force, you are in the people business, and everything we do is kind of by for and through people. And I'm not sure if I understood it, even when I was in the beer business, but really, you're in the beer business, you're in the beer business, or you're in the people business, and your product is beer. And then now I'm kind of in the in the middle of this now, where we have a product, but our product, once again, is people. Now we have to be, you know, commercially viable, and there's a there's a significant financial side of what we do. But I think back to my time at the Academy, and I think one thing you can't escape at the Academy is that you know you're bringing your whole self every day to what we're doing. You know you are you're in it. You don't go home anywhere else. So, your squadron is where you live, and, and you realize that you know what's happening in your life, and, and, and for anybody that's on the team, like they're going to bring it with them, and, for me, I've thought, I think we talk a lot in business and leadership about acknowledging that and being there for people and being empathetic. But the other side of it is, you know, if our people are our most important asset, then what are we doing to invest in them and through, you know, this is a really busy kind of work, and authentically making sure that my team knows, and I hope that they do that we're going to try to grow them, and we're going to try to reward them for being successful, because it matters to the bottom line. It's not just the right thing to do. It helps move us forward, because if we're improving the conditions that they can go home to and spend with their families, we're going to get a better version of them, and it's going to improve the work that we do. So I think being in such an immersive type of place like the Air Force Academy, you realize that there is no turning it off when you leave or go somewhere, we go through difficult times, but we also have the opportunity in these kinds of roles to improve that and make sure people are fulfilled and finding their purpose in our work. And inevitably, I really do believe that that impacts our bottom line. Naviere Walkewicz 51:21 What fulfills you and your work as a leader? Brian Campbell 51:26 I mean, there's so much. This is what I love to do. And I love to be around the competition side of things, and I love to see when we're able to make something happen, a donor's vision to invest in our student athletes. And, you know, you see some of the things that they go on to accomplish, and you see what it means to the institution. I mean, you know, here, I think sometimes we think like, wow, college football in America is just bonkers, and it's crazy. It's gone off the rails, you know. But here at the University of Miami, you know, we have a we have a really, we have the biggest research based health system in South Florida, and it's the same logo that's on our helmet and that health system is successful because we have a very strong brand through football mostly, and In so I think we take that very seriously, that you know our work is directly tied to things that happen, not only on our campus, but in the healthcare system here as well. But you know, the true where the rubber meets the road is seeing the success that you know our student athletes have and enriching their experience and being able to tie that back to the people that make that possible. Naviere Walkewicz 52:45 So, if we have any listeners that are interested in getting into the gift officer kind of role, the ability to help others invest, what would you share with them as maybe just a path or things to be considering? Brian Campbell 52:59 Yeah, I mean, fundraising and development's a whole it's a whole industry, and it would be great to have more grads that would come into this kind of work. I mean, I was often asked by donors at the academy, why more people? Why more grads aren't doing it? And it's a unique it's a unique career path, but if there's elements of things that are meaningful to you, and you think that you know, nonprofit work might be appealing. Fundraising is a great way to do it. There's ups and downs. It's challenging. There's a bit of a craft to learn to it, but it's, this is not rocket science in any way. But if I really thought I was going to do it, I'd pick up the phone and call a grad who does it. I can think of a couple names off the top of my head and just ask and start to network. And when I moved over into college athletics in order to do that, I mean, I probably made 500 phone calls, and I always ask someone for the next name and network that way. And I received tremendous advice, and it was really good practice for what I ended up doing. I would encourage. I would love it if more would come into this line of work. You heard it here first friends, yeah, we'll see how effective it is. Naviere Walkewicz 54:15 That is wonderful. Well, we're going to get into a couple more things before, before our podcast ends. So, Brian, I just want to ask you in advance so you have some time to think about this. Our listeners want to know something unique about you, maybe something that you haven't shared with anybody you know, something fun or some kind of talent you have. So, I'll give you a little bit of time to think about that, and then we're also going to want to hear your takeaways. So, before we get there, we're going to ask for Brian's final thoughts next. Before we do that, I'd like to take a moment and thank you our listener for listening to long blue leadership. The podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio, and is available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Be sure to watch or listen to all episodes of Long blue leadership@longblueleadership.org All right, so Brian, welcome back, and we're really excited. Our listeners love to learn things here on Long Blue Leadership that they can only hear here. So, would you mind sharing with us something that is unique about you? Brian Campbell 55:15 Well, I think before the break, you mentioned a talent, so I'm going to take credit for this being a talent during covid, I started getting into, like, amateur mixology, and so, yeah, at home. Now this is maybe a dangerous habit to have, but I do, I do share some of my work with some of the administration there still so, so it's definitely bled into Doolittle Hall a little bit, but I've learned to make, like, very specific cocktails and stuff like that. And I love doing it. I love trying something new all the time. So, I don't know if that's a talent or not. People can come have a have a drink with me at my house and decide to do when you have, when you have two little kids, you need to bring the fun. Needs to be at home. That's right, yeah, so, so, so that's, that's kind of my unique interest, I guess, more than a talent. Naviere Walkewicz 56:13 We love that. So maybe we'll see a line down the road of a series of Campbell drinks. Or… Brian Campbell 56:21 …yes, yeah, I do name some of them after things at the Academy. Naviere Walkewicz 56:25 Just so, you know, okay yeah, I guess I could ask you to share one of them, maybe one name. Brian Campbell 56:30 Well, you know, a lot of good supporters were in the class of '75 so I changed French '75 to '75 Best Alive. Naviere Walkewicz 56:39 Love that. Brian Campbell 56:43 People have no idea what I'm talking about. Naviere Walkewicz 56:45 I would want to twist to that. I would want to twist that and skip it. So that's fantastic. Thank you for sharing that well. Before we close, we really like to leave our listeners with just a couple of key leadership nuggets that you'd like them to have. What would you leave our listeners with, Brian? Brian Campbell 57:03 Yeah, you know, I think as I look at some of the people that were on this podcast, I mean, you have some folks who are very, very accomplished and at the top of their fields, and then you have some others who are at the beginning of their careers and heading down that, that road. You know, for me, I'm probably in the middle of it. And as I look at the arc of my career, I don't think I've arrived as a leader and I, but I started to think that I probably that I would be willing to bet that General Clark might say the same thing, and Coach Calhoun might say the same thing. So, I think it's always a work in process, but I think it's important to be really authentic with people, and that has worked. It's worked well for me, especially when those decisions are consistent with being authentic to what we're trying to accomplish. And the other thing that's meant the most to me, and is just surrounding myself with the best people possible, and that has continued to help me grow and evolve, and not just the people I hire, but I think back to my time working there at the academy and how cool it is in a you know, couple year period I was around, you know, Mark Welsh and Dana born, and Jack Kucera and Paul Madera and the Brunies (SP?) and Mike Gould and these kinds of people. And that's who I had the chance to surround myself with, and I, think that that has more to do with me having other opportunities in my career to go grow and learn at a different place and hopefully be successful here as much as anything that I did. And so I think a lot about the elements that we put into it, because it's hard on a daily basis to know if you're doing a good job being a leader, but if you take those pieces of the fabric that we learned at the Academy, and you keep doing it the right way and thinking about these things and surrounding yourself by people with surrounding yourself with people of those kinds of values, and people that you can take little pieces of what they do and try to try to bring them with You. I think it's the right road. Naviere Walkewicz 59:22 Well, Brian, it's been a pleasure. I know I've just taken away some things, and in our time together here, learning about you, but also just inspiring me thinking about how we can give and it really is a pleasure. I can't wait to see where your trajectory of your career takes you and the ways that you'll continue to make an impact. Brian Campbell 59:39 Wow. Thank you. Naviere, it was great to be a part of it. Thank you everyone at the Association and the Foundation. I'm glad that we have a podcast. I know that there's so many efforts that are happening to connect with grads at all stages in their careers and their journey, and I just really appreciate that. Audience to be on and all the incredible work that's happening back there at our school. Naviere Walkewicz 1:00:06 Thank you. So, we can end with the Go Falcons, right? Brian Campbell 1:00:08 Yeah. Beat Army, sink Navy! KEYWORDS Brian Campbell, Air Force Academy, leadership, growth, development, athletics, fundraising, University of Miami, Kucera Legacy Center, resilience, sports marketing, philanthropy The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
While a cadet at the Air Force Academy, Jason Kim '99 experienced the “pedestal effect” and learned the importance of curiosity, compassion, trust and mutual respect. SUMMARY Jason Kim, a USFA class of '99 and CEO of Firefly Aerospace, discussed his leadership journey and experiences. He emphasized the importance of curiosity, compassion, and mutual respect in leadership. Jason shared his upbringing in Richardson, Texas, and his parents' influence. He recounted his time at the Air Force Academy, highlighting the humbling experience of being among top cadets and the value of building trust. Jason detailed his career path, including roles at Boeing, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman, and his MBA from UCLA. He stressed the importance of giving back to the Air Force Academy and the Space Force. OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "I think just being curious and being an active listener and asking questions and listening to other people, sometimes people want to vent, or sometimes people want to just be heard or have a voice, or some, most of the time, people just have good ideas." "And so I would just say, just be curious, what did I miss? Did you miss something? Did we both miss something? If you get all those great ideas and you share it amongst different people from different backgrounds and walks of life, you don't miss as much, you know, and you're just bet off better off, you'll have a better solution." "Building that trust, you know, with your your your teams, that's extremely empowering and motivating when you trust someone else, and they trust you, and you can go much, much further when you build that trust up." "We got this drilled into us, and we didn't even know at the time how important it was. But you know, building that trust, you know, with your your your teams, that's extremely empowering and motivating when you trust someone else, and they trust you, and you can go much, much further when you build that trust up." "And then the last thing I would say is, I think we were one of the first classes that had non commissioned officers alongside with AOCs that were there to teach us about mutual respect, about mutual respect between officers and non commissioned officers. And I think that went a long ways for for all of us, because, you know, once we went to the real Air Force, you know, we were going to lead a lot of officers and NCOs, and getting that kind of exposure early on was helpful, but also learning about mutual respect, that's something that is extremely important in any work setting that you're in." SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK | LINKEDIN CHAPTERS 00:00: Introduction and Background 02:24: Welcome to Long Leu Leadership 07:42: Early Inspirations and Motivations 10:56: Discovering the Air Force Academy 16:00: Memorable Experiences at the Academy 23:26: Leadership Lessons Learned 26:32: Leadership: Curiosity, Compassion, and Mutual Respect 28:14: Startup Journey: Taking Risks and Minimizing Regrets 30:07: Leadership Lessons: MBA and Personal Growth 32:05: Startup Experience: Joining and Growing a Company 36:18: Family and Risk-Taking: Lessons from Parents 39:36: Hidden Talent: Drawing and Painting 45:36: Giving Back: Involvement with the Air Force Academy Foundation 51:30: Impact of the Air Force Academy: Building Resilience and Confidence TAKEAWAYS Growing up in Texas with immigrant parents instilled a strong work ethic and a desire to give back to the country in Jason Kim. Inspired by the space shuttle program and the Gulf War, Jason decided to pursue a career in the military. At the Air Force Academy, Jason experienced the pedestal effect and learned the importance of curiosity, compassion, trust, and mutual respect in leadership. Jason's academic and extracurricular experiences at the Academy helped shape his leadership skills and provided him with lifelong friendships. His parents and role models like Colonel Ellison Onizuka influenced his decision to join the Air Force and give back to the country. Curiosity, compassion, and mutual respect are essential qualities in leadership. Taking risks and minimizing regrets can lead to personal and professional growth. Giving back and supporting future generations is important. The Air Force Academy provides valuable experiences and lifelong friendships. Learning multiple languages and exploring different cultures can broaden perspectives. The Academy's challenging environment builds resilience and confidence. ABOUT JASON KIM '99 Mr. Jason Kim '99 is a member of the Air Force Academy Foundation Board of Directors. He is also CEO for Firefly Aerospace. Jason's career includes his work in the satellite and national security space for Boeing Raytheon and Northrop Grumman. While in the Air Force, he served as a program manager for the Space Superiority Systems program and Reconnaissance Systems Program offices. He has served on the boards of the National Defense industrial Association and space enterprise consortium formation Committee. He began his Air Force career as a cadet, having graduated with a degree in electrical engineering, followed by a master's in electrical engineering from AFET and then an MBA from the University of California, Anderson School of Management. CONNECT WITH JASON LinkedIn ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates! SPEAKERS Guest: Mr. Jason Kim '99 | Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz 00:01 Our guest today is Mr. Jason Kim USAFA class of '99 and a member of the Air Force Academy Foundation Board of Directors. Jason's career includes his work in the satellite and national security space for Boeing, Raytheon and Northrop Grumman. While in the Air Force, he served as a program manager for the Space Superiority Systems and Reconnaissance Systems program offices. He has served on the boards of the National Defense Industrial Association and Space Enterprise Consortium Formation Committee. He began his Air Force career as a cadet, having graduated with a degree in electrical engineering, followed by a master's in electrical engineering from AFET and then an MBA from the University of California Anderson School of Management. We'll discuss Jason's life before, during and after the Academy, and we'll ask him to share a unique talent. We'll end with his advice for those striving to become leaders and those already in leadership positions, endeavoring toward excellence. Jason, welcome to Long Blue Leadership, my friend, my classmate. Thank you for being here today. Jason Kim 01:04 Thank you for having me, and thanks for using my call sign. Naviere Walkewicz 01:09 You're welcome. I know we want it to catch on so everyone knows now. Well, as we do in this, this is such a wonderful opportunity for our listeners to get to know you, and we like to go back and so for us, we're talking, you know, closer to 30 something years ago, right, when you were young. Jason, tell us about what life was like before the Academy was even in your in your line of sight. Jason Kim 01:31 So, I grew up in Richardson, Texas. It's a suburb north of Dallas, and if you've been to Dallas, it's a metropolitan city, and but it's a little bit country as well. And so yes, I grew up with cowboy boots. I grew up with a belt buckle, you know, driving a pickup truck, all those kinds of things. But I'd listen to all kinds of music. So, judging by my call sign, you know, rap music, R&B, but also some country as well. And my parents were first-generation immigrants from South Korea, and so I really saw how hard they worked, you know, learning a different language, buying a house, doing all that in their late 30s and 40s and raising three children. I'm the youngest of three boys, and so I'm very, you know, grateful for what my parents did for us three boys. My dad was an electrician on oil rigs and was in the oil and gas industry, and that's why we ended up in Texas. And I'd see him travel away for a month at a time, and then come back home for a month to places like Venezuela and United Arab Emirates and Gulf of Mexico and all kinds of places. And so, you know, I heard stories of travel and just everything he was doing. So, we'll get to this later, but he was definitely an inspiration early on for me, and he always, you know, was very grateful for being a naturalized citizen and allowing our family to grow up in the U.S. and get an education. And so, he always kind of inspired me to give back to the country, and always do good things for the community as well. And so that's where I kind of got those roots. And, you know, also being the youngest of three boys, my older brothers were seven and nine years older than me and so you can imagine I was the little kid that they would bring along to school or, you know, meeting with friends. And so, I learned the good things from them and emulated the good things, but then the bad things, the mistakes that they made, I tried to avoid that. So, I kind of got it easy watching them. And so, I owe a lot to them coaching me and mentoring me as I grew up, and then being in Texas, of course, what did I play sports in, I played football. And I would say that a lot of the leadership skills that I got early on came from football, and a lot of the work ethic came from football — the teammates, the collaboration, the strategy. Texas football is pretty legit, and so I got to watch tape, I got to lift weights, practice. All those things that Tom Brady says in his Hall of Fame speech I resonate with now, I didn't end up like Tom Brady, but I resonate with what he said, all those early mornings, waking up, you know, training, all the hard work. It really taught me a lot of good lessons. And, you know, I still kind of have a lot of that work ethic because of, you know, playing football, and a lot of the team and collaboration came from collaborating with 10 other football players trying to score a touchdown, or keep others from scoring a touchdown. And also, a big reason why I'm a big college football fan, so I'm really happy to see your son play for the Falcons, and I'm going to be rooting for him and the rest of the Falcons, as well as my other alma mater, UCLA, so I'll be at those games as well. Naviere Walkewicz 05:55 That is awesome. I mean, I'm almost developing a visual of young Jason and his two older brothers and his mom and dad. And what a story. I mean, I think about, you know, just first off, the confidence, resilience and grit of your parents, right? And then you're seeing this, and you're growing up in a household. So, what, as the youngest? I mean, I think, like you said, you were able to kind of see what to avoid, what pitfalls to avoid, and how to kind of navigate that. Well, when did the military kind of come into the picture? Was that something that your older brothers participated in through school? How were you introduced into that side of the world? Jason Kim 06:32 Yeah so, I would say it kind of goes along with some inspirational people in my life. You know, growing up in Texas, the Space Shuttle program was a big deal. And I think you and I were 8 years old when the space shuttle Challenger event happened, and one of the astronauts that was a hero among all the astronauts on that mission was Col. Ellison Onizuka, and he made a career in the Air Force. He was a test pilot, graduated with his Ph.D., I believe, and became an astronaut, and really gave his life in many ways, to for science and for the Air Force. And so, seeing someone like that that also kind of looked like me was a good role model for me at an early age. And so that kind of got me interested in the Air Force and the Shuttle program. And then, you know, I think you and I remember when we're young, 1991 before we went to the Academy, you know, the Gulf War, and we saw on TV for this first time, all this shock and awe and Gen. Schwarzkopf and Colin Powell, and all the strategy that was used. The technology. You know, you heard about the second offset strategy with those F-117 Nighthawks, and all the flares that you would see that night. And it really just made an impression on me. It got me kind of excited about the military and all the technology that's involved. And also, you know, kind of got me into thinking about being a pilot someday. And again, you know, my dad always saying, “Hey, give back, Jason. You know, this country has given a lot to our family. Give back.” I kind of got that motivation to go into the military. And then, you know, I think we also had family friends that had some people that went to the academies, whether it's the Naval Academy or others, and got to learn a little bit from them what was it like to go to the Academy? And these were really good role models as well. So, I got with my liaison officer, which was a really great liaison officer, got me involved with what I needed to do to get more information. And went to the summer scientific seminar and spent a week on the campus and got to learn what it was like to be a cadet, somewhat. Yeah, it was actually fun. But, you know, meeting people, meeting the upperclassmen, and they were all super nice at the time. And I also, it turns out, I met my future roommate there, and we were, yeah, we met at the summer scientific seminar. And so, lo and behold, when I go into basic cadet training, I see him there. I'm like, “Oh my gosh, you were there at the same time as me!” So it was a really great experience, and that kind of solidified it for me that I wanted to go the Air Force Academy. Naviere Walkewicz 09:56 So, I mean, you had some great role models to kind of facilitate some of that interest. There was a lot of things happening in the country that, you know, we both were, were very familiar with, and it created some feelings of pride and wanting to give back. Were you always thinking about the Air Force Academy because of those motivations, or were you thinking other service academies as well? Jason Kim 10:16 I think I had my heart set on the Air Force Academy. You know, I don't know if I said before, but you know, my parents had me late, later in life, and so since I was the baby of the family, by the time I got to the age of going to college, my parents were retirement age, and I was not going to put them through what they did for my older brothers, which was room, tuition, board, and all that stuff that they had to work hard to pay for. I wanted to get a scholarship somehow. And this was a way to give back to the country, get a scholarship, get a great education. Plus, you know, I applied to all the service academies. But, you know, you'll, you'll hear this later, but I wasn't the best swimmer, so I wasn't going to go to the Naval Academy. West Point was foreign to me. I just didn't know enough about the Army, and I wanted to be a pilot. So, I thought, “Hey, the Air Force Academy is the best way to do that.” Naviere Walkewicz 11:17 Awesome. So, you had a great ALO (pronounced AY-low and is an Academy Liaison Officer) you know, you kind of went through the process, which, in itself, is quite a process, as we remember. And so how did you find out? When did you find out you received an appointment to the Air Force Academy? Jason Kim 11:31 That was, oh, that was, you know, I've had a lot of great moments in my life, so it's, that's reaching far back. I just remember that I was super happy. You know, it was Congressman Sam Johnson of the 3rd District of Texas that, you know, gave me the nomination. He was actually an Air Force pilot and a Vietnam POW. He since passed away. But, you know, getting a nomination from a legend like that was very much an honor. You know, I also got a senatorial nomination to go to the Naval Academy, but not knowing any better, as the 18-year-old, or whatever I was, 17-year-old, I was like, “Sorry, Senator, I'm going to the Air Force Academy. Thank you very much. I'm not going to the Naval Academy.” So I was very set on going to the Air Force Academy. I was very, very happy, because it was hard to get in. I mean, one of the challenges I had as a fairly big football player in high school was the, you know, the test that you have to physical fitness tests you have to take to get into the Air Force Academy. So, you had to do all the pull ups and the runs and all that stuff. And I had to cut weight, and it really took me waking up every morning, just going through the routine of practicing all those things, and eventually got enough confidence to pass the physical fitness test and all the other things you got to go through. So, it was very rewarding to get to the point where I got in. Naviere Walkewicz 13:15 That is awesome. And I can see that drive, I mean, just from your family instilled in you to get to be like you said, confident, ready to go. That's no surprise at all. So, talk about at the Academy, we know a little about your roommate. You met him in summer scientific seminar. What was your Academy experience like? Jason Kim 13:35 I remember Day 1 because there are two funny things that happened. One, somehow I got lucky, and I got paired up with a NCO, enlisted person, who I wish I remembered his name. He didn't end up staying after Basic Cadet Training, so I lost touch. But what he did for me was amazing, because he already knew the drill. He was like, “Jason, you don't know how to wear BDUs, but this is how you do it. This is how you put the blouses on.” How did I luck out? I had somebody that knew what to do and was teaching me how to do it from Day 1. So very, very much grateful to that individual. I wish I could have kept in touch with him. The second funny thing is, we all had name badges. And you know, my name badge, for some reason, it said Jun Kim. And I was like, OK, that's my last name, and it's June, I think. So it makes sense. And then everybody, all the upperclassmen, were like, “Is your name Jun Kim?” I was like, “Yes, yes, sir. My name is Kim,” and I thought it was the month. But it turns out they accidentally switched my nametag with another Cadet named Jun Kim. Yeah, and so he was wearing my Jason Kim, and so, on Day 1, you know, it was very confusing, and that got me into a lot of trouble. They're like, “Do you know…,” all the things you could think of, I was getting all those kinds of comments. And so, it was quite the memorable experience. It's like, it's hard enough being a new doolie and trying to figure it out. But then when you have those kinds of incidents, it's like, it makes it even more confusing, but it was memorable. Naviere Walkewicz 15:33 Oh, that's awesome. I can, literally picture this. Jason Kim 15:37 That was Day 1, and then, you know, life as a cadet. They warn you of this. They warn you of the pedestal effect, where you're in high school, you're top of your game, and top of your class and you varsity letter and all that stuff. But when you get to the Academy, oh, boy, was I humbled. I mean, there were people that were smarter than me, more athletic than me, you know, better in every way. And so, I just felt very average. And in retrospect, there's nothing wrong with that, right? But just being around 1,500 cadets, you know they just were the best of the best from wherever they were. It was very, very humbling, but also rewarding, because I got to meet people from different states. I'd go on spring break to California for the first time, because I'd make friends with people that were from Northern California or Los Angeles. So, I got to meet a lot of lifelong friends that have been my support group for my entire life, you know. And every time I get together with my friends from the Academy, it's just like it was old times. It just, it's hard to explain, but you know what I'm talking about, and… Naviere Walkewicz 17:02 I do. It just feels like time didn't pass. Jason Kim 17:05 That's right. Some of us, like yourself, look like you do from those days. Some of us aged a little bit differently, like myself, but yeah, it was a great experience. Now, if you remember our year — our year was the first year that had the increased level of the internet and so that got a lot of people in trouble. Because, you know, “What's this internet? What do you do with it?” What we got in trouble for in my class was we played a lot of online games, you know, in first-person kind of games. So, I remember there was a game called Quake, and it was a lot of us just playing together in our in our dorm rooms and spending a little bit too much time on that. And then I remember other video games, like Goldeneye on Nintendo, and it just sucked so much time out of our days that, in retrospect, it's like, “What were we doing?” So, I guess you could say we were kind of old-school video gamers back in the day. Naviere Walkewicz 18:20 It's funny. I was just going to ask you, we knew that you were getting into electrical engineering. What else were you doing? So, it sounds like it wasn't football, but it was Nintendo. Jason Kim 18:30 I really loved sports. So, I loved taking all the intramural sports and the classes like golf and tennis, and I got into rugby for a little bit, for a minute, which I really enjoyed, but it's not a very forgiving sport, so that didn't last that long. But, you know, I think just the camaraderie you get playing sports like that was fun, and I think from the academic side, you know, I did go into electrical engineering, so I did all the nerdy stuff. That's probably why we didn't cross paths. Also, you probably weren't at the robotics competitions that we were doing, because that's really nerdy. But we got into doing little Roomba robot construction before Roombas existed, and we created our own Pac Man, you know, handheld games from scratch using a box of parts and processors. And my senior design project was pretty interesting. My classmate and I decided to make a digital karaoke machine. You know, using everything we learned from electrical engineering and apply it to something fun. I just remember us just trying to make the most of it with our friends and our classmates, and trying to make it fun, because it could be a lot. I took a lot of semester credit hours my freshman year. I just remember something like 22-plus credit hours. It was just a lot, and you really needed a way to recharge. And so those were some of the ways. But of course, the skiing was amazing. You know, being so close in proximity to all the ski resorts, like Breckenridge and Copper Mountain and Vail — all those great places. So those were always fun things to do. I had my first bowl of pho in Denver. Naviere Walkewicz 20:49 In Denver? Jason Kim 20:52 I remember that vividly. I went to one of my first concerts, Smashing Pumpkins at the Nuggets center. And then I got to go to Red Rocks. So, there was a lot of cultural things that I got to be a part of, too. Naviere Walkewicz 21:09 I love that. So some of the things that you expressed, and I think this is great for our listeners, because, you know, sometimes some of some of our guests have been very, I don't say tunnel vision, but there's very, like, one track they've been really dedicated to, like one aspect. You know, obviously we have to do military, academic and, you know, physical fitness, athleticism, but there's kind of one track that they really hone in on. It seems like you really kind of experienced a lot, and through all of that, I might ask, what were some of the leadership lessons you picked up and learning about yourself, because you kind of talked about that pedestal effect, right? You were really kind of high coming from high school, and then you came to the Academy, and you kind of had to rediscover yourself in a different way. And it looked like you did that. What did you learn? Jason Kim 21:53 Yeah, so some of the leadership things that I would say, that I got exposed to — and it made me kind of think about it and much later in life, kind of reinforce it — was just to be curious. A lot of times as leaders, you can jump to conclusions but I think one technique that is very helpful, no matter what industry you're in, is just be curious. You know, when you have employees, you could hold folks accountable but be curious about it. Ask the right questions. “Is everything OK? Do you have enough support? Do you have the tools, training to do what you need to? How's your family life?” That kind of stuff. So, I think you could be very curious and compassionate and graceful in terms of leadership, and that's partly learning from good leaders, but also bad leaders that didn't do that. So, I think you got to see both sides as a cadet, and you always want to pick the good leaders and emulate the good behaviors and leave out the bad. So that's one thing I would say. You know, we got this drilled into us, and we didn't even know at the time how important it was. But building that trust with your teams — that's extremely empowering and motivating when you trust someone else, and they trust you, and you can go much, much further when you build that trust up. And then the last thing I would say is, I think we were one of the first classes that had noncommissioned officers alongside with AOCs (Air Officer Commanding) that were there to teach us about mutual respect, about mutual respect between officers and noncommissioned officers. And I think that went a long ways for all of us, because once we went to the real Air Force, we were going to lead a lot of officers and NCOs and getting that kind of exposure early on was helpful. But also learning about mutual respect — that's something that is extremely important in any work setting that you're in. So those are kind of three examples of leadership, things that I would say I remember from the Academy that are also still important today. Naviere Walkewicz 24:35 I think that's wonderful. Maybe you'll even share an example where you saw either curiosity, compassion or mutual respect really play a role in your professional or personal life after the Academy, but before we get there, I remember you talking about wanting to maybe get into space, right? The astronaut program, be a pilot. How did that all shape out? Because you were an electrical engineer, and then what? Jason Kim 24:58 So, I really wanted to be a pilot. And for some reason, I really liked the C-17, the Globemaster. And I think it's because it was a fly-by-wire kind of system. It was a stick, but it was like more of a commercial airline-kind of transport plane. So, it was a blend of — fighter pilots use sticks but it was still kind of an air mobility command-kind of system. But, you know, unfortunately, my eyesight, my color deficiency, just didn't allow me to go into that track. So, I really just leaned on and doubled down on my electrical engineering background and got to go to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base as my first assignment. And there I was an engineer-slash-project-manager working on uncrewed aerial vehicles before they became popular. So, things like the Global Hawk and the Predator, UAVs, those were things that I was getting exposed to, and I got to put payloads on. If you remember, in the 1999 timeframe, there were Hellfire missiles put on the Predator. I was there when that was happening. And so, it was just very, very amazing to see all that happen before my eyes. I got to work on the U2 and put payloads on the U2 and other very important missions. And I think that exposed me to the real Air Force. Even though I wasn't flying, I got exposed to assets that actually went into the theater and were very valuable. And then from there, I got assigned to L.A. Air Force Base, and finally got to live out my dream of living in Los Angeles, and was assigned to the Space Superiority Material Wing, and that's where we were acquiring satellites and ground systems to help protect our freedom in space. And so, I learned a lot about space there and ground systems. And, you know, after several years working there, I decided I wanted to go into industry. And so, I did two things. I went to a large aerospace company and became a program manager there. You know, now, in charge of designing and building these satellites. So I went part time to UCLA to get my fully employed MBA, just knowing that I wasn't going to know everything about industry. I wasn't going to know everything about how to be part of a company, and so I wanted to kind of learn more about that side of the industry by getting an MBA. Unbeknownst to me, the MBA wasn't just about company operations and finances, it was actually about leadership. And so, I got a lot of leadership lessons from my MBA program as well. So, it gave me a lot of confidence. And what I mean by that is confidence in just going with your gut, taking risks, getting into high-risk, high-reward situations. And it's because I learned about, the company financials, the underpinnings of a company. I learned about entrepreneurism, what it what it's like to start up a company or operate a company or go through different case studies of how to turn around a company. I learned a lot about accounting and how important and valuable that is. But then most of all, I learned a lot from my classmates. And there were people from the Hollywood industry or investment banking or the medical industry. So, it was really great to learn from my classmates. It got me to conference level where I was like, “Hey, what am I doing at this company? I want to take a risk and go to a startup company.” And I did. I took that leap of faith, and that's where our first, you know, joined Millennium Space Systems, which was a small startup company when it was 20 people. But it was something that I guess I go back to the Air Force Academy where, you know, there's that quote in the Eagle and Fledgling statue that says, “Man's flight through life is sustained by the power of his knowledge.” That kind of always stuck with me and it's one of those things where, when you join a startup company, and you help grow it, and eventually we sold the company to Boeing, you learn so much. I mean, I had five different hats, you know, and I had to learn about finance, program management, business development, engineering, integration and test, all that stuff, mission operations — you learn all those things by doing, and no one will ever be able to take that knowledge away. You just, you just get it for life. Naviere Walkewicz 30:34 Wow, there's, there's so much that, I mean, you covered such a span, because I'm imagining, you know, maybe I don't want to call — maybe “gift” is not the right word, but not being able to be a pilot might have been something that opened up obviously these opportunities for you in ways that you could not have even foreseen. So, I actually wanted to go back to that really quick and just ask, how did you, how did you kind of re-change your thoughts or shape your mindset to, “OK, well, it's not that. So, what's next?” And how did you handle that? Because I think some of our listeners find themselves in situations where, “Well, if I do all these things, then it will lead to this.” But sometimes there are things outside of your control that even if you do all the things, you can't get there. Jason Kim 31:20 Well, I think, first of all, I'll always be a fan of pilots and aviators and all these fighters and bombers and transport airplanes — I definitely bleed blue still to this day. So, I definitely appreciate all of our classmates that have sacrificed so much to fly in the Air Force and defend us. That's kind of my mindset is, “What can I do to still contribute to the mission to national security?” And so as long as that was kind of my guide-star, I was fine, because I knew that I was contributing to the mission in some way, whether it be acquiring platforms and putting payloads on those platforms to go support our classmates, or today, you know, designing and building systems and operating systems that end up helping national security. It's really the mindset of, “What can I do to help and make a difference, to help defend our country?” So that's how my mindset shifted, because it takes all of us to contribute what we each contribute to make these missions work. And so that's kind of where my head was at. Naviere Walkewicz 32:50 I think that's fantastic advice. And there's this theme that's been woven since you talked about your parents, and I think it's this, you know, looking forward and investing in yourself and educating yourself. And so along this path, you've done those things. You're also a family man. When did that kind of come to fruition and how does your family feel about when you joining startups and taking risks and doing some of these things? Jason Kim 33:16 It goes back to my dad. He gave me a lot of great advice when he was still around, and one of the advice was just sharing his regrets. You know, a lot of people thought he was my grandfather because he had me so late. Really,there's something to be said about that. He was very wise. He had a lot of experience in life, and he had global experience and had seen so many different hardships and overcome them. And he would always say, “Hey, I wish I would have taken, you know, that risk and left my company and joined my other co-workers to go start up that other company.” That actually happened. He had co-workers that ended up starting up a different old drilling company in Texas, and he thought it was too much risk at the time. He regrets that, because obviously those people that went over at the time they did, they did well for themselves. So he would tell me stories like that, and really all that wisdom he would just try to share with me from a young age. And it's hard to admit, but at some point in your, all of our lives, we start to realize how right our parents were sometimes, and so, you know, a lot of the risk taking that I'm doing, that I have done, stems from advice that my dad gave me. It's like, “Hey, go for it. Take the risks. Don't have those regrets.” And so, I think I have lived my life in that manner — just minimize the regrets and take some risk and take calculated risk and really be confident with yourself and double down on yourself. So, yeah, absolutely. Naviere Walkewicz 35:12 I love that. And your family obviously doubles down on — yeah. Jason Kim 35:16 I mean, I had kids late in life. I really enjoy spending time with my kids. That's how I recharge. You know, I've got a son that's turning 9 this month, and a daughter that turned 6 a couple months ago, and just watching them grow up and be curious and learn and ask questions and try different things out. You know, we try not to push things on our kids, and I'm the same way. I'm not trying to push anything on my kids, but I do want to give them a lot of opportunities that I wish I had, and just expose them to those opportunities, because you just never know which one takes off and which one really resonates with them. And so that's kind of my mindset right now is, “How can I give my son and daughter as many opportunities as possible so that they could figure it out on their own what they want to do,” right? Naviere Walkewicz 36:09 Well, even the words that you used, you kind of talked about some of those lessons that you took away as a cadet, and you are seeing it in your children, with the way that they ask questions and the way that they explore. So, I think you have kind of taken those and pass it into your legacy line. I do want to ask a question, because we always find it fascinating when we learn more about our guests. So, do you have a hidden talent that you might share with our listeners? Jason Kim 36:35 I do. I wish I could say it's something that is so fascinating. But really, it's just some something that I could — I could draw and paint really well, and it was something that I just noticed when I was very young. You know, I learned from my older brothers, and they were pretty good at it, too, but I learned at an earlier age than them, and so I've always been able to sketch and draw realistic pictures. When I was younger, drawing Lamborghinis. Because I always wanteda Lamborghini Countach. They don't make those cars in the price points that I would like, so I don't have one today. But I was always drawing things. And, you know, recently, I started painting as well, and it was crazy. I had never done oil painting before, and when I had my first child, my son, whatever got into me, I just picked up a brush and painted a picture of him, and it actually looks like him. And we did a side by side, like picture of him smiling, and the painting of him smiling. It definitely captures his essence, because I never got training or anything. And so, I would say that's my hidden talent. It was even hidden for me. And, you know, it's just amazing — just go for it. Just go do it. And that's one of the things that I would recommend to people that are wanting to go the Air Force Academy is just get out of your comfort zone and do as many things as you can early on, even before going to the Academy. You know, learn different languages. Just learn as much as you can. Learn lifetime sports. Take lessons of swimming or golf or tennis — all those kind of things. Just do as much as you can, because you'll get busy when you're at the Air Force Academy and you'll have less time to do all the things you want to do. But even when you're in industry and you're working, you don't have as much time to go do that kind of stuff. And you may not think you have a lot of time during junior high or high school, but you do, and you should take advantage of just learning as much as you can, and you'll appreciate it later in life when you go travel to Paris or travel to different places like Thailand or, you know, Japan. You know, if you learn those languages, you can explore those places even more in a way that you know is more enriching, and that gets me to that's what I want to do more of, is travel, travel globally with my family. I think that's something that I want to expose my kids to. And a lot of times you grow up in the United States and you start thinking, “Hey, there's only one way to think about stuff.” But when you travel — and I got to travel for work to Paris a couple years — it opened my eyes. It opened my eyes to a different world and how other people think and dress and go about their daily lives. I've also gotten to London recently for work, and that was eye opening as well, and been to Southeast Asia as well. So, it's just fascinating to go to this these different places and learn the cultures and talk the languages and meet the people. It's very enriching. Naviere Walkewicz So how many languages do you speak? Jason Kim So, I grew up learning Korean so I can speak a little bit of Korean. I obviously took Spanish because I grew up in Texas, and that Spanish is a very valuable language in Texas, even in California. And because I took Spanish, you know, when I get to the Air Force Academy, what do they do? They said, “Hey, we don't want you to take Spanish. We want you to be the handful of people that takes Arabic.” So, I got the privilege to take Arabic. I got volunteered into it, and it was very, very difficult for me, because I just had no background in it. I struggled with it. But the silver lining is that I learned about a new culture, and I learned about how to write right to left and, you know, just a new language and new foods that go along with it, too. So I really appreciated that. In hindsight, at the time I didn't think it was that easy, but in hindsight, I wish I would have done more and kept the fluency in it, because learning a different language means you can talk to a different group of people, and you can learn more or teach each other new things. So, it just opens a lot of doors. Naviere Walkewicz 42:02 So, the experiences you've had, both from the Academy and the languages and throughout your career, both professionally as well. It's personally, what's something that you've taken back from those experiences that you might share with a listener that maybe hasn't had that kind of exposure, that they can bring to the leadership table. And how do you use that at yours? Jason Kim 42:20 I think it just goes back to what it touched on before, is just the curiosity. Just always be curious. You know, I think Ted Lasso had it right. Just be curious, right? If you had just asked questions about, “Hey, did you throw darts when you were younger?” Oh, if you would have known that you would have known that Ted lasso was really good at darts. I think just being curious and being an active listener and asking questions and listening to other people, sometimes people want to vent, or sometimes people want to just be heard or have a voice, or, most of the time, people just have good ideas. And you know, it's all about, “Hey, did I miss something? Did you miss something? Did we both miss something?” If you get all those great ideas and you share it amongst different people from different backgrounds and walks of life, you don't miss as much and you're just better off, you'll have a better solution. And in my industry, you have a better design, you have a better result, performance result. And so, I would just say, just be curious. Naviere Walkewicz 43:29 What did your road back to the Academy look like? You know, now you're part of a board of (USAFA) Foundation directors, and so you talked about learning from your dad and your mom, always about giving back. So, I have to think that's probably been part of was in the back of your mind. But how did that all come together? Jason Kim 43:44 You know, I had no road map to do the job that I'm in right now. I never anticipated doing this job, and I also didn't anticipate being on the board of directors for the Air Force Academy Foundation. But I had folks reach out from, you know, the Air Force Academy Foundation, and ask me, “Hey, do you know what we do? You're a big football fan. Are you aware there's a Falcon Stadium renovation?” And I was like, “No, tell me more.” And with that first visit, I actually donated right away, I was like, “I'm on board. Sign me up. I want to donate to this because I believe in it.” You know, Falcon Stadium was where we graduated, right? It's such a memorable place. We saw a lot of football games there. And so, it means so much. So, I was all about donating to that cause. And then I would say that the second time around, when the same person came back and said, just to check up on me — he had mentioned, “Hey, there's this foundation, and they're looking for someone that has a space background, and you have a space background. So, are you interested in potentially coming to a board meeting?” When I went and attended the board meeting as a guest, I just stared around the room, and I was just in awe, because there was Paul Kaminski, who's, to me, is one of my role models in terms of all that he's done for the country and continues to do for the country. And he was on the academic committee. And so, of course, I wanted to join the academic committee. I saw Gen. Eberhardt. I saw Gen. Born, and there were just so many amazing people, Paul Madera, that I was just in awe. And, you know, from that respect, I was like, “Sign me up. I want to be a part of this.” And I saw them and how much they cared about the Academy and the cadets and making sure that the Academy kind of stayed relevant and was giving the cadets the best education that they can to compete with the Stanfords and MITs and the Harvards, I really saw a good cause, and then the fact that they were interested in my space background. I said, “Yeah, I definitely want to be part of whatever I could do to contribute to the Air Force Academy, to graduate not only people that are going to go to the Air Force, but also to the Space Force.” And so that's something I hope to contribute to is maybe someday a future space education center at the Air Force Academy, so that the cadets could get a great education and be future leaders in the Space Force as well. Naviere Walkewicz 46:53 Well, it certainly makes a difference. And I think I remember seeing you at that first board meeting that you participated in. I was so excited to see you. That was like, oh, '99s in the house. So that was wonderful. Yes, well, I have two questions left. The first one is, really, I want to just ask you, because we've covered so much, and you've given such wonderful, I think, advice and just perspective. But is there anything that I didn't ask you that you had wanted to, you know, talk about today? Jason Kim 47:20 You know, I think at the end of the day, going through the Air Force Academy is extremely challenging, but after you graduate, and after you go through life experiences, all the hardships, the challenges, what I've realized is going through the Academy kind of helped me overcome what I had to overcome in my adult life and in my industry life. We didn't like it at the time but breaking you down and then building you back up and making you get up back again every time you fall down, gives you life lessons and a confidence in yourself that you can kind of do anything that you put your mind to. I really believe that the Air Force Academy kind of helped me overcome a lot of different hardships in my life. You don't really realize that going through it, but later in life, I appreciate the fact that I went there and getting through there actually gave me the confidence that I could get back up and be OK and keep growing and continuously learn and get better and improve. So that's kind of something that I could attribute to the Air Force Academy. Naviere Walkewicz 48:49 Oh, that is awesome. And, I mean, and it's obviously taken you to new heights. Leading a corporation is no small feat. So, one of the things we really like to do is make sure we kind of hear the takeaways, from you to our listeners. So, it's really kind of a message to them. But before we do that and get your final thoughts, I just wanted to offer a note of thanks to our listeners for being here on the Long Blue Leadership. The podcast drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on all your favorite podcast apps. Be sure to send us your thoughts and comments at socialmedia@usafa.org, and listen to past episodes at longblueleadership.org So, Jason, I want to come back to you now, because I hope that gave you a little bit of time to think about what is the message you'd like to share to our listeners. And our listeners are far and wide. We have those aspiring to go to the Academy, we have family members of cadets, and we have graduates all alike. What would you like to share when you think about kind of your experiences in the realm of leadership? Jason Kim 49:48 To them, I think the Air Force Academy is a great place to graduate from. It's really hard to get through. So, be really proud of your sons and daughters that are going through it and persevering, and it really is a great experience for them. For those that are prospective students: You're going to get to do things that you never could do anywhere else. You know, jump out of planes fly gliders, eventually go into the Air Force or Space Force. And then for graduates, we've made so many lifelong friends, and we've made so many memories. It's something we can all do is give back, whether it's — go march back from Jacks Valley, or go to the reunion this year for our 25th reunion for the class of '99, or go to some football games. The Foundation has plenty of great, noble causes to donate to, because it's all about that Long Blue Line. We want the next set of cadets to get an even better experience in education than we did. We want to keep it going. Naviere Walkewicz 51:12 It is always a pleasure to not only hear your voice, but today, I got to see you as well. That just brings me such joy, and I can't wait until our reunion, just in a couple of months as well. Thank you so much for your time today, Jason, it's been amazing. Lil' Kim, thank you. Bye. KEYWORDS Jason Kim, Firefly Aerospace, Air Force Academy, immigrant parents, work ethic, space shuttle program, Gulf War, military career, pedestal effect, curiosity, compassion, trust, mutual respect, leadership, CEO, curiosity, compassion, mutual respect, electrical engineering, startup, satellites, taking risks, giving back The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
A conversation with 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23, the first active duty military member to be crowned Miss America 2024, about her background, leadership experiences, transition to Harvard Kennedy School, and key lessons on empathetic leadership and following one's passions. SUMMARY Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh, the first active-duty military member and Miss America 2024, discussed her journey and leadership experiences. She highlighted her foundation for pancreatic cancer research, her academic achievements, and her role as a mentor at the Air Force Academy. Marsh emphasized the importance of empathetic leadership, mental health support, and balancing personal and professional life. She shared her transition from aspiring to be an astronaut to focusing on public policy and her current studies at Harvard Kennedy School. Marsh underscored the significance of passion, support from family and mentors, and the impact of diverse perspectives on leadership. OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "Don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do yourself." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh "Your life is too short to live it for someone else or to do things that you are not passionate about." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh "I knew that if I put 100% into something I'm passionate about, the outcome and the impact that I'm gonna have is going to be far greater than forcing myself into this idea of who other people want me to be." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh "Leaning on people, whether it is your partner or a loved one, that is how you're going to succeed in life." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh "Being an empathetic leader, being a leader who goes by example. So don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do yourself." - 2nd Lieutenant Madison Marsh SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK | LINKEDIN | INSTAGRAM CHAPTERS 00:00: Empathetic Leadership: The Foundation of Success 02:43: Journey to the Air Force Academy: A Personal Story 11:33: Overcoming Tragedy: The Power of Support 16:18: Leadership Lessons from the Academy 28:31: Navigating Career Changes: Finding Passion 45:02: Key Takeaways: Empathy and Passion in Leadership TAKEWAYS Embrace empathetic leadership - Truly understanding and supporting your team members, even when they are struggling, is crucial for effective leadership. Lead by example - As a leader, you should be willing to do anything you ask of your team and not ask them to do something you wouldn't do yourself. Follow your passions - Pursuing work and activities you are truly passionate about will lead to greater fulfillment and impact than forcing yourself into a path for others. Build a strong support network - Relying on partners, mentors, and loved ones can provide the encouragement and guidance needed to overcome challenges. Prioritize self-care - Taking time for your own mental, physical, and emotional well-being is essential to being an effective leader and avoiding burnout. ABOUT MADISON Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh, crowned Miss America 2024, poses in a Colorado Air National Guard hanger on Buckley Space Force Base on August 7, 2024. Marsh embodies service in and out of uniform, proving that you can achieve your dreams and goals while serving in the United States Air Force. Image Credit: Ms. Miram Thurber, Air Force Recruiting Service Public Affairs 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh, USAFA class of '23, and Miss America 2024 is the first active-duty member of the military to hold the title. She is also the first such title holder in 50 years for Colorado. She attained her private pilot license at the age of 16. She is a highly accomplished humanitarian, scholar and service member. After the loss of her mother in 2018 to pancreatic cancer, she established a foundation to raise funds for research to fight the disease. When she became a cadet, she excelled in her physics and astronomy studies, winning a Truman scholarship and is now pursuing her master's in public policy at Harvard Kennedy School. CONNECT WITH MADISON Instagram: @missamerica | @madiisabellaa ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates! FULL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Guest, 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz 00:22 My guest today is Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh, USAFA Class of 23 and newly crowned Miss America. This is a first for an active-duty member of the military and one for the Colorado history books in that she is the first such title holder in 50 years for the Academy's home state. But there is much, much more to Lieutenant Marsh, including her attaining a private pilot's license at the age of 16. She is a highly accomplished humanitarian, scholar and service member. After the very difficult loss of her mother in 2018 to pancreatic cancer, she established a foundation to raise funds for research and to fight the disease. When she became a cadet, she excelled in physics and astronomy, earning a Truman Scholarship, and is now pursuing her Master's in Public Policy at Harvard Kennedy School. We'll talk with Lieutenant Marsh about her most meaningful and impactful experiences at the Academy in research, athletics, leadership and character development. We'll discuss her speaker role at this year's National Character and Leadership Symposium, and ask how her new role as a national speaker and influencer informs her mission and message. And finally, we'll have the lieutenant share a few takeaways on leadership and character development with you, our listeners. Lieutenant Marsh, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad to have you. 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 Thank you so much for having me. Naviere Walkewicz Absolutely. And before we dive in, as we normally do, we'd love to know how things have been going since you've been crowned. 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 01:51 It has been very, very busy. I've been really lucky that the Air Force decided to keep me on active duty this year, because not only am I getting to serve in a uniform like this, but I'm also getting to serve in that crown and sash. And so, there's so many different experiences that I've gotten to have, whether it's a mixture of days that I'm going and promoting the military, or days that I'm doing a very different type of service. So I never know what I'm gonna' get every day that I wake up on the job. So it's been pretty cool. Naviere Walkewicz 02:16 That is awesome. Can you share something that's really stuck out to you as just really memorable? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 02:21 So far, one of my favorite trips that we went on was Normandy for the D-Day anniversary, and I loved it because I had actually gone there last year, right after I commissioned with my fiancé, that was one of the first things we saw as officers. And now getting to go back with a year under my belt with a very different experience, I got to really see that history for like firsthand again. And I just think every time that I look at those headstones, it reminds me of what it means to put on our uniform, what our flag really means to me. And now being able to have that firsthand experience and sharing that with students across the nation, because I want people to understand what it means to serve every day, to hopefully invite people to come and join us and get excited about what service is. Naviere Walkewicz 03:06 Oh, that's incredible. And, I mean, I think just to reiterate your commitment to service, and then to be able to see how you carry that message through history, I think is really powerful. Oh, that's amazing. I imagine that it's been a whirlwind, and you're looking forward to much more as well. Yes, does it feel like it's flown by? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 03:21 Yes, I feel, I think I have, like, four and a half months left. And I mean, every day I wake up and it's like three weeks later apparently. Naviere Walkewicz 03:31 Well, I'm sure that to you it feels like it's flying by, but to everyone else it's a moment in time that they can really connect with you. So, your message is so powerful. We're glad that you're representing. Well, we'd love to dive into our podcast so our listeners can get to know you a little bit more and really experience leadership through your journey. So, we like to start by going into childhood. Okay, do you mind sharing a little bit about what you were like as young girl? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 03:55 Oh, let's see. I'd always loved science. Okay, so that was the big thing. I had wanted to be a paleontologist, a volcanologist. I wanted to be a scientist that lived with gorillas and studied them in the forest, which was… Naviere Walkewicz 04:08 Was that inspired by a movie, or just… 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 04:10 I don't know where that even started from. I think I was like, that sounds cool. My parents were like, What is she talking about then? And then, kind of going more into junior high, I wanted to be a marine biologist, and because I went on submarine biology camp, that was what sparked my interest in space, so that I had a very big shift that brought me to wanting to be an astronaut, which is ultimately why I ended up at the Academy. So, there was all these little things of interest throughout science my whole life that now made me put on the uniform. Naviere Walkewicz 04:42 So Wow, very long, weird journey to get there. Well, I'm sure it was an adventure for you and your family. Yes, are you an only child? Or do you have siblings? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 04:47 I'm one of five. So, we are a mixed family. I have three older half siblings and older brother Nick, older brother Chris, older sister Sarah. Then there's me and my younger sister, Heidi. So, big family. Naviere Walkewicz 04:59 Yes, and they're all adventurous like you? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 05:01 I would say so. I think we're all very different, like my older brothers, they were the huge athletes in our high school. I was not as much of an athlete in high school like I still loved fitness and gym, but I was the band geek. I was the one that was on Quiz Bowl and Science Bowl. My brothers did not. They didn't have the same interest in high school but now they're loving, like, they work in the tech industry. My older sister works in the tech industry. So, I'd say all of my siblings, now that we're in our adulthood, are very focused on, like, all STEM careers. So, it's been cool. Naviere Walkewicz 05:36 That is amazing. And I love that you mentioned, you know, being a band geek. And I think a lot of people wonder, “Can I, what does that look like down the road?” And just to embrace, I think, our passion? So, what did you play? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 05:46 So, I played clarinet and contrabass clarinet. So that's like the big six foot tall… Naviere Walkewicz 05:52 Oh my goodness. 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 05:52 I was this tiny little kid in the ninth grade. Whenever I got to play contrabass, they have to put you on this really tall chair. And so, there's very hilarious videos of me that my family basically uses this blackmail of me playing that journey. I was so proud of it when I brought it home, my parents were like, oh, it's six feet tall. When I brought it home, they were like, “Why was Madison picked for this? She's gonna' be playing this in the house all day.” And it's this really deep, extremely loud noise. And they're like, “Okay, we thought we could deal with the clarinet, but this is, this is next level.” Naviere Walkewicz 06:27 Well, I guess you know the good thing about that, it wasn't a drum set, right? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 06:30 That's true. There's grateful for that. Absolutely. Naviere Walkewicz 06:34 Wow, so you all got involved in STEM. Do you have military members in your family as well that you knew? That's when you said astronaut and Air Force Academy that helped guide that for you or no? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 06:43 So my grandfather had served, but I had never met him. He passed away, I believe, either whenever I was like a newborn, or maybe a couple years prior, so that, I guess, didn't really influence my decision in the military. The biggest part of it was when I went to space camp in junior high, and I met a bunch of astronauts there. And so, after hearing story after story from them, and getting to go and do really cool experiments, like at space camp, you're building rockets, you're pretending to be an astronaut, like we did a mission to Mars where I got to be a botanist. And so, all of that really influenced my decision on how do I become an astronaut? And so, the story I kept hearing was all of them, for the most part, that I'd met were in the military. They were test pilots, they were fighter pilots. So, I started to figure out, how can I go down that path? Discovered the Air Force Academy and knew that was going to be one of the best places to getting a pilot slot, and even though I am not going down that astronaut path anymore because of those initial dreams and those aspirations that has opened up so many doors now for the rest of my career. So, it's been cool to see how it's evolved over time as I've grown up. Naviere Walkewicz 07:46 Oh, that's amazing. And I think it's part of what you've learned in your journey is there's a bit of, like, flexibility and kind of, you know, learning along the way. So, it sounds like you did some of that even as a young girl. Okay, so how did you get into the Academy? You applied? Was it just kind of the typical application process? Did you talk to a lot of other cadets? I'm just curious what that looked like for you. 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 08:08 I think I don't know if I spoke to a ton of cadets at the beginning. I remember I used to watch on YouTube, like while I was getting ready for bed, I would watch videos of like the jump team, or different anything from the Academy. And I was like, that is where I need to be. And we have a cool thing at our school where they have an entire military day. It's like on a Saturday. So, they bring every branch. They have people that represent active duty, reserve, guard, all of the academies, enlisted officer, anything that you could think of. They have them set up all in our hallway. And I knew at that point that I wanted to go to the Academy. And so, what I did is I basically printed out all of my essays that I knew that people had had to submit in the past for the Academy. I did resumes. I came with my GPA, everything, and I walked right up to my congressman, and I handed it to him, and I said, I went to him, and I said, “I want to go to the Air Force Academy, and I want to be your nominee.” And I'm sure he was like, “Who's this?” So, I was very firm early on, and so we were able to start an incredible relationship with one another. And so, because I did that, I think that was maybe my junior year, early on in my junior year, when it came time my senior year, he fought for me all of the time to get my application in front of people, because I was his principal nominee, and we had a very, very special moment. So, he called me on October 31, and told me that I had gotten early acceptance to the Academy, and so I got to tell my mom, and the next morning, she passed away. So having an experience like that is… that's why the Academy and Congressman Womack are so special to me, because that was my dream for years, and my mom got to know before she passed away. And it's just everything happens at the right timing, and you never know until afterwards. And so now I get to be here. Now I get to wear the uniform, and even though she hasn't gotten to see it, she got to know about it. And just because of those first instances where I marched up to him and I said, like, “I want to be here.” I got to have experiences like that. And now I get to have wonderful experiences of now serving post Academy life. Naviere Walkewicz 10:16 I think what you just shared was so powerful in multiple ways. I think the first way is, you know, really being clear and what you wanted to do and to not, you know, take a step back and accept anything, unless you walked right up to him and said, This is what I want to do. You establish yourself, I think, and then to have, I think, that moment where he did fight for you and before your mom passed, having that, I mean, I can't even… Just share thank you for sharing that with me. 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 10:45 He is also a huge part of all the scholarships and applications I've ever done. Anytime that I've ever needed someone to write me a recommendation letter. Congressman Womack has been one of the first people to do it. And I remember when I got the Truman Scholarship. I had asked them, like, what do I need to do for the because I was going to go and compete for the Rhodes and Marshall Scholarship the next year. And I was like, what were the strongest parts and what were the weakest parts of my application? And they said one of my strongest parts of my application, literally, was the letter that he wrote. They said that, like, you never get to see what they write, because they have to submit it to a portal. You're not allowed to look. And they were like, what he put in there, put everything like, pushed it far, far past the line. And I'll never know what he said, but I'm extremely grateful for him always believing in me. He actually had a really cool moment after I won Miss America this past year, he went on the floor of Congress and, like, read out all this stuff about what we had done together, being from his home district and growing up there, so it's been really cool to see how our relationship has evolved over time, because he has always supported he's such a big military promoter, and just getting to have that relationship and also use him as a mentor when times were tough at the Academy, being able to call him up and being like, I'm struggling. I know you helped me get in here, but I'm struggling right now. And he was always there to have an open mind to kind of guide me through, to make sure that I made it out at the end of the day. Naviere Walkewicz 12:12 Wow. I think having those champions in life not only help us get through things, but help shape us that we will be champions for others in the future. Do you see that something that kind of was ingrained in you from that experience? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 12:22 Yes, I think, I mean, we were kind of talking about this earlier, about how I reflect on all of my experiences and look at the fact that I would have accomplished nothing without the people that had helped me, and I now want to be that person, even if it's only a little fraction in someone else's life to help them, because they recognize you don't go anywhere alone, you don't accomplish anything alone. And there have been countless mentors, teachers, family members, loved ones, that had poured into me, and now it's my turn to give that back to them. Naviere Walkewicz 12:51 Amazing. So, you got into the Academy, it was a beautiful thing for you and your family, and while you were there, that's when you formed the foundation. Is that what I'm understanding from a timing perspective? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 13:03 So, I started the foundation my senior year of high school. So, my mom had passed away, and it was something that my family started literally two weeks afterwards, because watching my mom go through everything, I had recognized that we need to give something positive back to people. And a big part of just pancreatic cancer, is that educational aspect of making sure families around the nation know the signs, the warning, the warning signs, the symptoms. Because that was something that we had no clue with my mom. She was 41 years old when she was diagnosed and passed away. It was a very, very quick turnaround, and so we started it then, then I went off to the Academy. So that's something that I have fun doing on the side and learning a lot of leadership through that as well, because now we've expanded, and I lead about 20 volunteers from across the nation, and it is something that I have not done before, especially like virtually, since we have people all over. So that has been a very big learning lesson this past year, and now I'm getting to use all the cool stuff from the Academy to figure out how to lead people in and out of uniform, because that's something that has been a huge part of my life at the academy, was making sure we serve outside of this, because we have so much time. And I think at the Academy, you often feel like your life only exists inside of the black gates, but there's so much that you can do for people outside of that before you even put on the uniform every day. Naviere Walkewicz 14:22 I think that's really powerful in sharing that because, you know, I think about your family, and first, I just want to thank you for sharing that difficult time. Because, you know, listeners, we have all different experiences in life, and you know, we all experience, at times, some kind of tragedy. And I think sharing how you found a way you and your family to work through that, and, like you said, kind of provide a perspective for others. You know, maybe if I could just touch on that, and we can, we can move forward while you're at the cadet, when you're a cadet. But can you just touch on, you know, how might you suggest someone find a way to get through some tragedy, maybe through a lens of leadership? Or if they're helping others that are experiencing tragedy. 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 15:03 I think there were two really big parts for me. One of them was knowing when to ask for help. That is something that I talk about in academics, and that is something that I also talk about in personal life, because I wouldn't have been able to make it through the Academy had I not received help. So, one of the things that I did whenever I went through basic like I tried to quit on the first day because I was really struggling with obviously, the Academy is difficult and grieving at the same time. So, one of the things that I did to ensure that I would stay was I started seeing a therapist up on the hill. I saw chaplains all the time. I continued that through most of my freshman year, well into covid when I got sent home in 2020 because I knew that there was no way I could be able to lead in the classroom, in uniform, be there for my friends if I couldn't help myself first. So that is the first big step. It is takes a lot of courage and strength to receive help, and I think that is something, a stigma,that we're all having to overcome and change the narrative surrounding the conversation of mental health, you are strong if you get help, and everyone around you is here to help you, and I think as a friend, also being inviting, being conscious of the types of conversations about when other people that you don't know are having to receive help. Because there were definitely times that people had said about me like, “Oh, Madison's just trying to get out of training,” or, you know, you hear things like that. And so I knew that when I became a sophomore, that whoever I was leading, the one freshman that I was going to be in charge of, I could always be a safe space for them and ensuring that anytime, if they needed to go see chaplain, no questions asked, I would be there to walk them to and from the chaplain, whatever anybody needed, because I understand that that sort of help can be life-saving, and we have to be able to invite those sorts of conversations in and allow people to receive the help that they need. And I think that kind of follows throughout the entire culture of your squadron or Air Force wide, and it starts with one person, one leader, being inviting and accepting of those that need help. Naviere Walkewicz 17:02 That's so powerful, and I'm so glad that you shared that, because I do think sometimes people might think asking for help is weak, or if I just hide it, then no one knows. But I think you're right. Courage is asking for help and receiving it, and that one person like you said you champion someone else, they will do that. So, you just created this train effect of, you know, support, and I think that's really powerful. So, while you're a cadet, you know, you had amazing experiences, I'm sure. Let's talk about what leadership roles you had as a cadet, aside from being, I think, what do they call them now? So, when you are a three-degree and you have a four-degree, you're called like a coach. Okay, so could you talk about that role a little bit? So that's fairly newer… 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 17:45 Yes, it's pretty interesting. So, you go from being a freshman, which is very much so learning how to follow others, into you are assigned a freshman as soon as you hit your sophomore year. So, you'll have a cadet that has just come out of basic, and they're assigned to you, and that might be, I mean, that's many different things, like you're doing the obvious things like feedback with them, that's required. But it goes beyond that, if you make it so, because everything is a leadership opportunity Academy, if you pour into it so that could be, you know, meetings with them to check up, like, “Hey, how's school going?” Or if they're falling behind in school, like, “Let's create a plan to ensure that you pass your classes,” or, “Let's create a plan to ensure that you are going above and beyond and excelling in these areas.” You have those sorts of conversations with them, and I believe you are their protector against the upperclassmen, because obviously the freshmen, like the upperclassmen, duties are to be hard on them so that they become a better person at the end of their year. But as a sophomore, I had always taken as this is my person to protect and lead, because you're the closest first line supervisor to them. So that's how I took the position of if they needed help, if they had gotten in trouble, having those conversations with them to get them back on track, or maybe they're having some difficulty working with some upperclassmen to try to talk that through with them, to make sure our squadron was still meshing with one another. So that is the intention of the role. And you can go as little as just feedback with them, or you can do a lot. And then you also switch at the second semester, so you'll have a new freshman to lead on the back half of the year. Okay, it depends on the squadrons. Sometimes they strategically place you together, like, let's say a freshman said during basic, “I really struggle with academics,” and they knew that academics was my strong suit. We might get linked together so that they have someone that is guiding them, because they know they're going to struggle with that as soon as the school year starts. So, linking up people's weaknesses to their strengths is a big part of it. Naviere Walkewicz 19:44 That makes sense. I'm glad you shared that, because I think, you know, not all of us are familiar with that, that kind of program now, and I think the term coach is really appropriate. You know, that actually makes sense, and it helps, actually, I think, inform how you can really, like you said, and embrace that role. And what I think is also a theme with you, Lieutenant Marsh, is, you know, you don't do anything just to do it. And you know you do it because you put your whole self into it. And so, while you're a cadet, maybe talk about what were some of the other things that you experienced from a leadership perspective, from peer leadership, because you know, you had the opportunity to help those you said, as you know, four-degree under you. But what about peers and up? Did you see any leadership you experienced in those realms? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 20:29 Gosh, there are so many leadership stories that I could touch on. I think one that really stands out in my mind was General Clark, who was our superintendent my time at the Academy. And I remember my sophomore year was covid gear, so we had right before recognition, or the night of recognition. My freshman year, we got sent home. I didn't return until the Fall semester. For my sophomore year, that semester was very tough because we were basically locked down. You couldn't leave. You couldn't really go see your family, and that sort of, you know, being contained in those black gates actually, literally, this time was very hard. And I remember there was a time period for at least five weeks when we were kind of stuck in your dorm, and it sucked, to say the least, but the thing that General Clark did was he was not going to ask us to do something as a leader that he was not willing to do himself. So instead of staying home with his family or going out, he came on base almost every night. He was bringing us food from Chick Fil A, Crumbl Cookie, anything that you could think of. He was doing all the cadet things like the, oh my gosh, what's it called when you pour the water? Naviere Walkewicz 21:38 Oh my gosh, the carrier land, carrier landing, carrier landings, with cadets. 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 21:45 That was fantastic. I mean, awesome. And then there was a night, I believe, that he set up a cot in a spare room and stayed over with the cadets. And it's leadership like that that had shown me, don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do. There's going to be times that are extremely tough, and I'm excited to be in an opportunity where I get to lead more people after this year's Miss America, and after I finish up my degree is it situations like that where you can make such an impact and show that as a leader, you are not better than the people that you are leading. You are right there, going with it, alongside them. And General Clark showed that to us from day one, and he is a leader I'm always going to remember and look up to and that was just one of the many stories that he showed that to us. Naviere Walkewicz 22:25 And it sounds like that, leading by example is something that you also carry with you in your style and how you want to be seen as a leader. Yes, yes. I think that's wonderful. Let's talk a little bit about you know, you said that you've always enjoyed academics and stem so at the Academy, I understand there's an Academic Success Center. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because that's not something I'm as familiar with. 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 22:48 So, under the Academic Success Center, there are, I believe, two portions of it. So, there's the Quantitative Reasoning Center and the Public Speaking Lab. And I used those all the time, sometimes daily for all four years at the Academy. So, the Quantitative Reasoning Center, they also have a writing lab underneath that, which I also used. So, they will help you with anything from uh, calc one problems to maybe engineering, or maybe you need help writing an essay, or you're not understanding your English class, or you need to help, like prep for public speaking, whatever it might be. So, I went down there all the time because my biggest thing is asking for help early and often. These are free resources that they provide. Naviere Walkewicz 23:32 Does every cadet from E.I., from extra instruction? Or is it part of is extra instruction with your… it's kind of the same? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 23:37 Okay, so E.I. is with your instructor. Specifically, this is like a place down underneath the comms tower, where it's an entire wing, where people just sit there all day, and you go online and you make an appointment with them for 30 minutes, and they will be assigned to you to go through your essay with you. Or, “I really cannot get this problem on my assignment. Can you help me with it?” So, if your teacher isn't available, you can go there. It is incredible, because if you are falling behind, there's no reason you can't go to the Academic Success Center, because they have people that stay, I think, until like, eight o'clock at night. And they start, I want to, I mean, I it depends on the people, but I know that some of them started like earlier in the school day, like you could go at noon. So, let's say you have an off period, and you're an IC so you can't go after school. You could go during the day if you have time, or even later that night. So, there's so many opportunities to receive help, and I knew that if I was gonna' go be a Truman Scholar or try to go to grad school, I needed to go 110% in all of my classes, and I couldn't do by myself. I'm not some genius guru who just understood everything. That was not how I was as a student, I did well because I got help from people that knew a lot more than me, and I tried to learn from them, and especially in English classes and history, writing is not my most favorite thing. Yeah, so I had people that did love writing that helped me, and then I think the public speaking lab is also one that is an underutilized resource for cadets. I hear a lot of people that go and use the QRC, but never the Public Speaking Lab. So I used the PSL for anything from pageant prep, whether they were watching my talent or we were going through 100 different political questions and they were grilling me on them, or I'm preparing for a scholarship interview, and how are they going to grill me on my entire life, or my stances on particular things, or my plans, anything that you could think of. They're there for a speech for your class or a presentation for a class. If you struggle with being in front of an audience, they are there to help you, and it's free. And I can tell you right now, I cannot think of many other colleges that have resources like we do, and I remember my dad telling me as a freshman, when I had told him about the Academic Success Center, he was like, “You better be going there every single day, because I can guarantee your older siblings did not have that type of opportunity,” because we have such a small environment compared to some of these big schools across the US. You get really close with your teachers, and you have the opportunity to get really close to all the people at the Academic Success Center. And that is how you go far at the Academy, and you do well. So every Cadet needs to visit there, at least at one point, because I know everyone is not strong in every area. Naviere Walkewicz 26:21 Well, guess what I'm going to be telling my sons about, if you haven't, and it's for all classes. All classes, excellent. And I can assure all of our listeners, as you can also hear and see yourself, that the PSL, the public speaking lab, has been phenomenal for you. 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 26:37 I love it because I think public speaking is such an important part of being an officer, being able to get up and be in a crowd briefing to very important people, those skills that you learn as a cadet are going to carry with you for the rest of your career. So, start on them early and often, so you're not freaked out the first time you're on active duty and someone very important walks in the room and you're having to talk to them. Naviere Walkewicz 26:59 Exactly, exactly the low threat. 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 27:00 Get over with the low threat stuff. Now, in the safe spaces, we always talk about safe spaces. Naviere Walkewicz 27:02 I love that. So, let's talk about life after the Academy. Well before we go there, when you were getting your career drops and all of that, what was, what were you hoping for? We shifted from astronauts, so where did, where did you go? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 27:19 So, I actually ended up being awarded pilot as my AFSE. But one of the things that I had kind of recognized my senior year was that I was not passionate about going the astronaut route anymore, which meant I didn't want to go to grad school for physics, and I really wanted to focus more on policy and pancreatic cancer, which is why I ended up at the Harvard Kennedy School. So, I made the decision over this last year to not go to pilot training anymore, because I've recognized this entire job as Miss America, there are so many opportunities and jobs in the Air Force to do your job well. And I knew that I was not 100% passionate about the pilot career path anymore, but I could be 100% passionate about something else in the Air Force, which is going to make me do so much better at that job for the people around me. So, I'm changing my job now, and I'm very excited about it. My fiancé is still going to UPT right now, and I love getting to support him and watching that, and now moving into this new phase of my life where I'm going to get to experience another job in the Air Force. Naviere Walkewicz 28:19 So, we have listeners that, you know, find themselves in a path, and they feel, “I might, be stuck here.” Now, talk a little bit about making that decision, and how can you encourage others? I think the key word you used is, “I can do more because I'm passionate about something,” but maybe talk our listeners through how you felt this was the right decision, and at that time. 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 28:41 I did not come to it overnight, that is for sure. I think it took me probably two and a half years to really, finally be comfortable with it. And I think a thing that I struggled with was fear of people judging me because I was stepping away from this big dream of becoming an astronaut, which I can tell everyone right now, nobody cared whenever I stopped doing that, and that was something I was so fearful of. I thought everyone was going to be like, “Oh, she's not doing this big thing anymore. She's not going to do anything.” And that is not what happened when I started. I remember being in scholarship interviews, and one of the things that I'd received in feedback was it sounds like you're just being robotic, talking about this plan to becoming an astronaut, but when I hear you talk about pancreatic cancer, you light up, and those are the best points in your interview. And so, then that made me think. I was like, “Oh, okay, that's kind of odd that they say that I probably should think about that more,” because I thought I was really passionate about this, and my fiancé had kind of sat me down and was like, “We should, like, discuss this. Like, if you're really having second thoughts about it, because you shouldn't be forcing yourself into a career path to make other people happy.” And I remember my dad had called me after this conversation that kind of started, and he was like, “Listen, just because you told your mom you wanted to go astronaut doesn't mean that you need to do it to, like, fulfill the thing that you told her you were going to do.” He's like, “Your mom and everyone else does not care what career you end up in. All they care about is that you're doing something that makes you happy.” And through the loss of my mom, I had recognized every life is very short. Do not waste it on things you don't care about. Do not waste it on things you're not passionate about, because you're not going to do good at them. Like that's just not that's just not how you work. That's not how I work. I know that if I put 100% into something I'm passionate about, the outcome and the impact that I'm gonna' have is going to be far greater than forcing myself into this idea of who other people want me to be, and that's why I ultimately made that change. And there were a lot of tears at first. There was a lot of second guessing, and I don't think it was really until this January, after I had started, I started interviewing a lot of people on different career paths, like I had spoken to a lot of pilots and asking them what their life was like. And it wasn't until I had interviewed them and also people that are in this profession that I thought I could be really passionate about. That's what really put it over the edge. And I felt very comfortable then with my decision of I am okay, walking away from this old dream because it's no longer my current one, and that's okay. Everyone grows up, everything changes, and that's life, and accept that. And I think because I went 110% on this astronaut path, it opened up the doors to do anything else afterwards. Just because I went down this path for eight years does not mean that I was stuck in it. Since I had worked so hard, I had opened up every single opportunity, like going to Harvard, that has now changed the trajectory of my career and my life. Naviere Walkewicz 31:38 So, Lieutenant Marsh, I have to just say, even sitting here in the room, I'm inspired. I know our listeners are feeling this as well. Talk about how going to Harvard, Kennedy School. What is your vision for how this will impact and where it will take your foundation, or what does this look like to you after? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 31:56 I think a really cool thing about the fact that the Academy will send you right to grad school afterwards, is because you have so many opportunities to learn from people that are not military and a very different leadership orientation than we might have ever experienced at USAFA or in just the general Air Force. And that's been really cool. I mean, going to Harvard, we are a very small minority of military members that are there, and I'm getting to meet people from all across the globe. Over 60% of our program are international students, really, which is fascinating. Yeah, I'm getting to learn so much about their countries, their government, which I think is extremely applicable to the way that we work in the Air Force, because we are going to be having to work with a lot of these countries, and now I'm getting a deeper understanding of their perspective, their perspective on leadership, so I think that'll be really cool to see how it's going to impact my Air Force career. But my favorite part of it is the fact that it's allowed me to be really flexible, and what I focus on in public policy, my biggest thing has been pancreatic cancer. So how can I take my experience with the loss of my mom and my understanding of medicine and science now put into policy to ensure patients are receiving the best care so they are not going through what my mom went through? And another cool experience that this reminds me of is how I was talking about astronaut to now pancreatic cancer, because I went down physics instead of having to do a conventional physics project my senior year, because I went so hard in that major I was then able to do an artificial intelligence research on pancreatic cancer, wow, and apply like medical scans X-rays to the way that we detect pancreatic cancer in patients. So, it's little things like that that have opened up doors, and now I've gotten to take that research from the Academy, put that into what I'm studying at Harvard. So just so many different ways that you can apply, reapply and change across your life. So that's I'll be excited to see where I get to use it, I think, way down the road, whether I'm in the Air Force or not being able to serve my community with that degree in the leadership that I'm getting to learn there. Naviere Walkewicz 34:04 I can't wait to see what you have, I mean, just in the short amount of time, the impact and drive that you have. I mean, it's kind of it blows us away. So, it's really impressive. I wanted to go back to something you mentioned about the different perspectives from the other you know, cultures and countries, especially on leadership. Was there anything particular that you took away or that surprised you, or that kind of resonated with you from some of the people you've met? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 34:29 Gosh, there are just so many times, I think one of the things that I love doing was just, I love picking people's brains. Yes, so we had, like, a house about 30 minutes away from Harvard, and what I would do, or try to do, at least once a month, is we'd have everyone bring their food from their country, and we'd have a huge spread, and everyone would just sit down and talk about their lives. And there was this one girl named Paulina that I was good friends with, and she was from Israel, and so getting to hear her perspective, because they have a very different way of military service, because it is, I think it's required for them after they turn 18. And her perspective on why that is important to their country, and comparing it now to how the US is most like, is volunteer based, and the differences in that. And so, I think that was really cool to hear from her, because it's very different than what we do here. And I mean, there are just so many students. One of them, he was a student that had lived in China almost his whole life. I think he left when he was 14 or 16 for school or work, ended up living in Canada for a long time, and now was back in the US and hearing his entire family's take on covid or military operations or their actual thoughts on America was very different, because it is not what you get to hear every day in mainstream media, because it's someone that actually lived there. So, it was every moment that you get to have there is very fascinating if you're asking the right questions and talking to the right people… Naviere Walkewicz 35:57 Especially if you're open to listening. I have to ask, what did you bring for your food dish? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 36:01 I made a, what was it, green chili chicken soup. Naviere Walkewicz 36:08 Of that sounds yummy. 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 36:09 Yes. I like a little spicy soup. But it was nice. I was very full that night. I think I have a whole spread of like a table that was 10 feet long, just covered in everyone. Naviere Walkewicz 36:19 Oh, my goodness. Well, I'm a foodie myself, so I can appreciate that, and I would have probably partaken a little bit of everything too. So, we'd like to know, what do you your time is so busy? What do you do to what I would call like, manage your health, your balance in life? What does that look like for you? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 36:36 I was really terrible at it my freshman year at the Academy, and so I had to learn very fast to make sure I was on the right track. So, freshman year, I was struggling with grief. Obviously, the Academy is very busy, and I gave zero time back to myself ever. It was, I would get up at 6am and I was studying until midnight, and that's what I did every day. I never took Saturdays or Sundays off. I'd just go, go, go. And I think that took a very big toll on my mental health, my social life. And it wasn't until my fiancé Walker was like, “You are going to leave this place and throw up your hat and you're going to have no memories outside of your textbooks.” And I was like, “That is a terrifying thought, because you're totally right. You're 100% right. I have not poured into any of the other outside opportunities.”, and so I started doing very small things, like reading 10 pages of a book every night. That is what I forced myself to start doing sophomore year that slowly grew into, and not a textbook, not a textbook, a fun book that slowly started growing into going to the gym, making sure I have a full Saturday off to be with my friends and family, and so now that I'm having this very busy schedule, I do the same thing. I carry this very large planner around in my bag that goes down to 30 minutes, and I'm planning out every single part of my day. So, if I need to plan when I'm calling my family that goes on there, if I'm planning times to go to the gym that's on there, reading a book, anything that you could think of. That is how I stay replenished mentally. Because I know if I can't be giving that time back to myself, I can't go out and meet people and travel all the time, because everyone has their limits, and I've really had to figure out where mine are over the past couple of years and be very strict with myself to ensure that I don't pass them. Naviere Walkewicz 38:20 I love that because you can't pour from an empty cup. What's the most recent fun thing you've read? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 38:28 Okay, it's this book called Quitting a Life Strategy, and it is about basically the entire social dynamic on why we look down upon people that quit things, and why that is wrong, and it just meant a lot to me after changing career paths and recognizing that quitting is not a bad word, it's not a negative word. It is a redirection in your life, and it applies to relationships, friendships, jobs, volunteer opportunities, whatever it might be. And it was all of these anecdotes about people that had hated their job and had decided to make a change and are now doing something drastically different and are exponentially more happy, and it just made me feel very certain about the path that I was on, and also more empathetic to people outside of never judging people because they're leaving a certain situation of thinking, the only person that really knows what they're going through is them. And at the end of the day, someone else's life and their decisions don't impact you, so support them. There's no reason to be negative revolving around someone else's life or your own. Just allow people to live life, do their own things. And that is exactly what that book exemplified for me. Naviere Walkewicz 39:40 I love that. In fact, you make me want to read that. 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 39:43 It's great title again, Quitting a Life Strategy. Naviere Walkewicz 39:46 I love that. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, so Lieutenant Marsh, one of the things that our listeners love to know, and you obviously have many talents, because you have competed in in them as well for Miss America, but what's something hidden? Or maybe something special about you that you'd be willing to share with some of our listeners? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 40:07 Oh geez. I don't know if I have, like, a hidden talent, per se. Okay, I will, okay, this is funny. Going back to the band thing earlier, okay, every time I'm home on holiday, I break out my clarinet and I try to relearn the music and play, and it really irritates my entire family, because I'm not good anymore. I'm not good anymore at all, and they're all like someone take that away from her right now. And this last time I tried playing flute for a little bit, I did not catch on to it as easily as clarinet, and I was home for Christmas, or maybe it was some other time with my fiancé and me, and he had the flu, and I had the clarinet, we were walking around the house playing it together, and they were like, “We have to deal with two of them now, instead of just one.” Naviere Walkewicz 40:48 I love so, that's fantastic. Thank you for sharing this. And I think what's so great, some of the things that you've shared throughout this, well, one, they've been golden. I mean, just amazing leadership lessons. But I think one of the things that has been really special is you talk about your fiancé and that support you've had with him. Maybe just share with our listeners the importance of having kind of a partner or a support network. What did that what does that look like for you? You seem like you lean on him. Does he lean on you? Or is it able to be shared? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 41:18 Yes, he is. I mean, I would not be able to do this year's Miss America, or really anything without his support, because if you can imagine, I'm traveling all the time, he's going through UPT and is extremely busy. And it's because of our dedication to each other that we're able to come back at the end of each day, calling each other, making life plans, being honest about how we're feeling. And I think that honesty and the ability to lean on each other makes it so much easier to get through everything. And I remember like I talked about earlier my freshman year, I tried to leave multiple times. I tried to leave on the first day basic, my dad told me, “You can quit, but you can't come home to our house.” So I stayed. I wanted to leave after basic, and I decided to stick it out my freshman year. And it wasn't until that Spring semester freshman year, where I had found people like walker or Dr. Anderson or different professors and mentors that I had had that made me want to stay and like I said earlier, you don't go anywhere alone, or at least, you don't go far by yourself. And so, leaning on people, whether it is your partner or a loved one, that is how you're going to succeed in life, and I've had to learn heavily on how can I be there for these people when I'm at 100% because there are definitely days when I'm at home, maybe I'm not traveling as much for Miss America in the Air Force. And Walker had just the worst, most difficult, long week, like he's having this week, lots of tests, lots of Sims, and I get to be there for him, to support him at the end of it. And it's that give and take and understanding that, above all else, we are number one to each other, and that's something that we talk about it a lot, especially when it comes to career planning. For me, our number one is ensuring that we get to be together. Everything else is secondary, because I know I can't go 100% in my job if I don't have my partner there with me, and he feels the same, and so trying to plan life out in a way that always puts us as the priority no matter what. So, he's been very special. And I think you can also get that outside of a partnership, whether that is someone that is your mentor or a family member or a friend, right? Naviere Walkewicz 43:20 I think that was a key kind of takeaway that you shared there about first making sure you know what your priorities are, and then staying true to them. So, Lieutenant Marsh, there's two more things we have in this one, and I'll give you a little precursor: I'm going to ask you if there's anything that we didn't talk about there. I didn't ask you that you want to make sure that our listeners have a chance to hear and then the second thing is, we're gonna' have kind of those, those few key takeaways that you really want them to kind of indulge in from your perspective. So maybe with the first one, is there anything I didn't ask you that you wanted to chat about today? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 43:54 I feel like this is gonna' go into the leadership piece of it. And I just think it is so important to be an empathetic leader, kind of tying back into the mental health I had heard a story once about someone who had someone underneath them that they were leading, and they kept saying that, “Oh, this person's getting in trouble. They're not showing up to meetings. They just don't care. They are just a bad Airman.” When their supervisor had actually sat down and spoken to them, they had actually admitted that they were struggling a lot with depression and needed help, and it takes one person to sit down and have that very like quick conversation of just asking how people are every day and being genuine about it that could change someone's life, and ensuring that you know there are probably going to be people that you're going to lead, that are going to mess up, but be there for them, lead them, be empathetic and make sure that your people are okay. That is your duty as a leader, and that is something from that story I had learned, and now I have to take through the rest of my career to be cognizant of what my people are going through. Maybe they're struggling something with their family. Maybe they're struggling. With something personally, maybe like me, they need help figuring out their rest of their life and their career, and it's just things like that where you can make such an impact on people if you make the time to have those conversations with them, and that is being an empathetic leader, above all else, can really help your people go far, because if you're not focusing on them, they're not going to feel attached to the work that you all do together. But if you can be unified and stick up for one another, you can do so, so much more. Naviere Walkewicz 45:29 Oh man, it's always about the people, right? It's always and I think what you said was really key, and that was asking the question, versus either, you know, just kind of going in and directing, but being really open to listen so well. So now, Lieutenant Marsh, because I know everyone is hanging on to hear what you might leave them with, what really is, what guides you in leadership, and what are the few things that you'd like our listeners to kind of take away? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 46:15 I would say, going back to earlier, being an empathetic leader, being a leader who goes by example. So don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do yourself. And I think those are the two biggest things that I look for. And I've gained at the Academy and now post Academy life, because I'm always looking for things in leadership that I want to take away and things that I don't. And those are the two biggest things that I want to carry in my little toolbox for the rest of my career. And another important personal piece, whether it applies to your job, personal life, family life, whatever it might be, is always doing something that you love. Your life is too short to live it for someone else or to do things that you are not passionate about. If you are passionate, you're going to go so much further and you're going to be happy. That is the only thing that you can really take away from life, is the happiness that one you provided yourself and you can give to other people, and you can only do that if you're doing work that is worthwhile to you. So keeping that in mind, no matter the strife that you might go through or potential changes that you're going to go through in your career and your life, is holding that near and dear to your heart. Naviere Walkewicz 47:21 So, this has been an absolute pleasure to just spend this time with you. Lieutenant Marsh, I have to ask, as a graduate and the graduate community, you know, I've enjoyed listening to your story, what can we do to continue to support you? 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 47:34 I think the biggest thing that all AOG can do and long blue line is really just being there for the cadets, because it is conversations like this, opportunities to talk on a podcast like this that maybe cadets can listen to, or being mentors for them. That's what helps them get through it, and that's how we create great leaders, is by pouring back into our community where we came from. I know we talked about that earlier off camera. That's the biggest thing for me, looking at the people that gave back to me, and now that I'm a grad, just loving to be a part of this, to give back to the people that are now coming up and are going to be following behind us. Naviere Walkewicz 48:07 Thank you for being such an outstanding I think, leader, influencer, and we can't wait to share in this journey with you. 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23 Thank you. Naviere Walkewicz Thanks for your time. KEYWORDS People, cadet, Academy, leadership, pancreatic cancer, freshman, Academic Success Center, astronaut, family, sharing, empathy, empathetic, experience, lieutenant, cool, listeners, Marsh, passionate, learn The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
Brig. Gen. Gavin Marks '96 discusses the absolute importance of standards and integrity in leadership, and how a new, more rigorous approach at the Academy will build that in to cadets making them Day-1 leaders. SUMMARY Brigadier General Gavin P. Marks, Commandant of the Air Force Academy, shares his journey from being a young man in Atlanta, Georgia to becoming a pilot and eventually serving as the Commandant. He discusses his experiences at the Air Force Academy, including basic cadet training and the challenges he faced. General Marks emphasizes the importance of perseverance, leaning on support networks, and maintaining high standards in leadership. He also reflects on the impact of the Academy on his personal and professional development. General Gavin Marks reflects on his personal journey and the impact of his wife on his military career. He discusses the importance of being adaptable and humble as a leader and the unique responsibilities of command. He shares his decision to return to the Air Force Academy and the changes he is implementing to better prepare cadets for the challenges of great power competition. General Marks emphasizes the love and passion that the leaders at the Academy have for developing future officers and encourages listeners to continue dreaming big. OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "How you do anything is how you do everything." "There's always somebody better." "I want to make sure that they feel like they got their money's worth from a military development perspective or military training perspective." "The leaders at the Air Force Academy, from top to bottom, love deeply, deeply love the institution, and are incredibly passionate about the development of these young men and women into officers in the Air Force and the Space Force." "Continue to dream big. Don't let anyone dissuade you from goals that you have. And as it relates specifically to the Air Force Academy, it is absolutely worth it." SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK CHAPTERS 00:00: Introduction and Background 01:53: Returning to the Air Force Academy 02:52: Young Gavin Marks: Childhood and Calling to Serve 07:04: Challenges and Growth in Basic Cadet Training 08:29: Lessons in Leadership and Perseverance 11:45: Choosing the Air Force Academy and Pilot Training 15:06: Reflections on the Academy's Impact 20:52: Leadership Experiences as a Cadet 23:43: Lessons in Leadership and Perception 27:55: Successes and Career Progression 32:35: Meeting His Wife and Reflecting on Tinker Air Force Base 37:25: Personal Journey and the Impact of Relationships 57:54: Changes in the Life of a Cadet 01:05:48: Challenges and Partnerships 01:09:39: Rigor and Expectations 01:11:09: Love and Passion for Developing Future Officers 01:12:34: The Value and Worth of Attending the Air Force Academy TAKEAWAYS The importance of perseverance, resilience, and grit in overcoming challenges, especially during difficult experiences like the Air Force Academy. The value of having a strong support network, including family and friends, to help navigate challenging times. The significance of leadership roles and experiences during the Air Force Academy in shaping one's development and future success. The Air Force Academy's focus on evolving its training and development methods to better prepare cadets for the challenges of great power competition. The deep passion and commitment of the Air Force Academy's leadership in developing leaders of character who are ready to serve their country. ABOUT GEN. MARKS BRIG. GEN. MARKS' BIO Brigadier General Gavin P. Marks is the Commandant of Cadets, U.S. Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs, Colorado. He commands the 4,300-member Cadet Wing and more than 200 Air Force and civilian personnel. He guides military, leadership, character development, Basic Cadet Training and Expeditionary Skills Training for the Air Force Cadet Wing in addition to providing facilities and logistical support. Brig. Gen. Marks earned his commission from the U.S. Air Force Academy in 1996 and his pilot wings from Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training at Columbus Air Force Base, Mississippi, in 1998. Brig. Gen. Marks has served as a T-1A instructor pilot (at both the undergraduate and graduate training levels) and flight examiner, an E-3B/C instructor pilot and flight examiner, an Air Force Intern, a staff officer on multiple joint staffs, and has commanded at the squadron and wing levels. Prior to his current assignment, he served as the Director, Electromagnetic Spectrum Superiority, Headquarters U.S. Air Force, Washington, D.C. Brig. Gen. Marks is a command pilot with more than 3,400 flying hours in the T-3, T-37, T-1A, E-3B/C/G, RC-135S/U/V, TC-135W, OC-135B, and WC-135C aircraft. - Copy credit: AF.MIL CONNECT WITH GEN. MARKS INSTAGRAM: @USAFACOMMANDANT ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates! FULL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Guest: Brig. Gen. Gavin P. Marks '96 | Host: Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz 00:01 My guest today is Brig. Gen. Gavin P. Marks, USAFA Class of '96, and currently serving as the commandant of the Air Force Academy. This is his third command position since becoming a member of the Air Force. Gen. Marks was drawn to service as a young man in Atlanta, Georgia, and joined the Junior ROTC program in high school before coming to the Academy in 1992. After he graduated, he became a pilot and flew for 26 years, in addition to continuing his personal and professional development. In 2000, Gen. Marks graduated with distinction from Squadron Officer School at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama. In 2015, he again graduated with distinction from the National War College at Fort McNair in Washington, D.C. He has held command positions at the squadron and wing levels. His attachment to the Academy has remained strong, so much so that 20 years ago, he committed to returning and had been working his way back to USAFA when he was called to service, assuming his role as commandant in 2023. Gen. Marks, it is a pleasure. Welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Thank you for being here. Brig. Gen. Marks 01:03 Thank you very much. It is an honor for me to be here. It really is. Naviere Walkewicz 01:07 This is an exciting time for us, because especially for me, being a Class of 1999 — “Gold will shine” — I had to get that in there. We go back to Arnold Hall in Basic Cadet Training, when you were the commandant of cadets during Basic Cadet Training for us. So I remember you vividly as your taps from your shoes hit the floor in Arnold Hall. So this is truly a pleasure, sir, thank you. Brig. Gen. Marks 01:29 It is absolutely surreal to be back, and especially during this period that we're in right now during Basic Cadet Training, and as I interact with basic cadets and the cadre, it's hard not to reminisce about that time. It's hard not to share stories as well. I'm careful that I don't inundate the cadets with my stories of when I was the Basic Cadet Training commander. But it's just it's absolutely wonderful to be back here. Yeah, really is. Naviere Walkewicz 01:53 Well, we'll get to hear some of those, I think, you know, from your perspective, back then, and also, more recently, as we weave through this podcast. But really excited. And where we like to start is when we go back to young Gavin Marks. So Gen. Marks, tell us about what you were like as a child. Brig. Gen. Marks 02:08 My mother would tell you that I was precocious, that I was inquisitive. I was very, very talkative as well. So I have an older brother, and we are the sons of two parents that have been married for 55 years, and that's important, because 55 years is a long time, and it taught me the value of being committed. It also taught me the value of what love really looks like, up close and personal as well. I'm from Atlanta, Georgia, as you mentioned, so I'm a product of the South. I am a product of public schools, Baptist churches and Southern upbringing. So, I love sweet tea. I love this disgusting candy called Sugar Babies. And just about anything that you think of with regard to the South, you could probably say that that's pretty accurate as it relates to me and my personality as well. I call everyone ma'am and sir, regardless of rank, just based on my upbringing as well. I really would tell you that I got a calling to serve in the military by virtue of JROTC. I followed my brother into JROTC. We went to different high schools, and he enjoyed it, but it just wasn't his calling. I got involved in it and knew immediately that it was something that I wanted to do. I love shining my shoes. I love shining the brass belt buckle that I had on my trousers. I love marching. I love drill. I did Color Guard. I did Drill Team. It was wonderful for me. It was, I think, the thing that was missing in my life in terms of knowing what my niche was going to be. And so, my professor at that time in that particular JROTC program, I think he saw something in me, and he was the first one to actually bring up a military service academy. Prior to that point, I hadn't heard of anything about West Point or Annapolis or the Air Force Academy at all. And so, I took a trip with my father and we went out to all three and I can't swim, and so Annapolis was pretty difficult for me to wrap my mind around. West Point was too gray. You know, this is a 17-year-old at the time, or a 16-year-old at the time thinking these things. It's like, “Wow, this was really gray and dreary.” No offense to West Point. And then I got to the Air Force Academy, and I remember stepping off the plane and again, coming from Atlanta, Georgia, to see the snow-capped mountains, to immediately be able to feel the difference in the air, I knew that this was the place that I wanted to be. And so, I told my dad right then, as we stepped off the plane, I said, “This is it.” And he said, “What do you know about this place? You haven't even gone here yet.” But I knew, and the rest, as they say, is history. Naviere Walkewicz 04:48 Wow. So, neither your parents served and your brother was the first kind of introduction to Junior ROTC. What was that like growing up without having that, in Atlanta, not having that military, I guess, presence around you, and you said that's what you learned was missing. But what kind of got you to that point? Brig. Gen. Marks 05:08 So, I would say, just to be clear, so dad did not have a career in the military, but my father and my uncle both were drafted in Vietnam, and so to that extent, what I would say is, while there wasn't discussions or a lot of military impact in my household, I think, more than anything else, just through watching television, et cetera, there was something about the discipline. There was something about the professionalism. There was something about how revered those that are in service to their nation were in this country that really drew me to the profession of arms. It was just something about the fact that this is a career field. This is a profession that is extremely highly regarded across all facets of life, and I wanted to be a part of it. Naviere Walkewicz 06:03 So, as a young man in public school, did you find yourself drawn to things, like, I started to think about programs that were like discipline-based, like taekwondo or sports in that manner. Did you have some of those experiences as young man? Brig. Gen. Marks 06:16 I played — I ran track, following after my brother. My brother thrived in track and field. I followed him, and I absolutely loathed it. I was not athletically inclined, and try as I might, you know, I work out and I try to stay in good shape, but I would not call myself necessarily an athlete of the highest order by any stretch. And so that absolutely was an albatross around my neck coming to the Air Force Academy, especially during basic training, especially during Jacks Valley. Naviere Walkewicz 06:52 Well, let's talk about that a little bit. Was there a specific instance in Jacks Valley where — because I feel like now you might be able to run circles around some of us. Brig. Gen. Marks 07:01 Well, I will tell you — so, what I remember a lot about Jacks Valley, I remember the power-line runs. And back then we had the M1 Garand, 11, 12 pounds and we carried it everywhere. And it was heavy. You know, 12 pounds doesn't seem like it's heavy, but it's heavy when you're at port arms, and you're running for miles and miles on end, and the altitude, obviously, is vastly different. Jacks Valley is very dusty. You know, “Jacks Hack” is a thing. And so, all of those things, in aggregate, really caused me a lot of trouble. And so, what I remember is thinking often “I'm not going to make this. This is not going to happen for me,” in terms of graduating out of basic training, because I am falling behind in my runs, et cetera, et cetera. But I made it. I made it. Naviere Walkewicz 07:56 I love that. And I think for some of our listeners, the key thing, even just in that one was, you know, you didn't give up. You recognized you just had to keep working at it, and you got through it. And you're now serving as a commandant of cadets. So, I feel like there's definitely a story here that talks about you and your grit and your perseverance and everything throughout these years. Brig. Gen. Marks 08:15 The thing that I took from the Air Force Academy experience probably more than anything else — and there are several things that I took from it — is that this is a an incredibly difficult journey that is made better if you think about it from the perspective of just taking one step at a time every single day. Just show up, just show up, just be present, and that's 80% of it. If you just keep showing up, you are going to be OK. And so that was my mentality: They were going to have to kick me out. I was not going to self-eliminate at all. And so, no matter how slowly I ran back, then they were going to have to kick me out and I was going to keep showing up. The other thing is, I would say this: I had tremendous teammates. Our squad, well, in Jacks Valley, our flight, which became our squadron — we were so close, even back then. And if one of us was falling behind, “Come on, Gavin, let's go. Pick it up.” And that really helped a lot, because you didn't want to let your teammates down. Naviere Walkewicz 09:22 So, we got a little glimpse of Jacks. So I'm just gonna' dial it back just real quick, back to the point where you said to your dad, “This is it. This is where I'm going.” So, what was that journey like from Junior ROTC to getting into the Academy? Because I think a lot of people want to know what that looked like for you. Brig. Gen. Marks 09:38 So, I knew that from probably my junior year in high school that I wanted to go into the Air Force or to into the military. I didn't know which branch to be perfectly clear. So I applied to all three service academies. I applied to The Citadel and I applied to VMI and to Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. Those are all of the ones that I could think of at the time, and the visits helped a lot to crystallize in my mind what I wanted to do. But what really also helped was this fascination with flying. Originally, I wanted to be an astronaut, a dentist, a doctor, an actor, and so many different things when you're growing up, but the idea of flying was really at the forefront of my mind as well. I also knew I wanted to lead. And so, combining those two desires, it made sense to go to the Air Force Academy. And again, I couldn't swim. I tried as much as I possibly could to learn how to swim through the YMCA, et cetera. I'm a product of basic swimming at the Air Force Academy — twice. If I'm being completely candid with you and your listeners, if I could have swam at the time, it is likely that I would have gone to Annapolis, and it is likely that I would have been a Marine, because that is much more, at least in my thinking back then, in line with my personality. Because I am — I will just say the military pillar of the Air Force Academy was, as the young people would say, that's my jam, for sure. Naviere Walkewicz 11:15 I can see that. While I appreciate that, I can see that. We're so glad that we were able to get you here at the Air Force Academy. So, let's talk about your time at the Academy. You wanted to be an astronaut. You turn the dials toward pilot. Let's talk about what that experience looked like. Brig. Gen. Marks 11:30 So, the Academy was very, very challenging. What made it challenging primarily was the balance of so many requirements, and that's on purpose. It is rigorous on purpose because the profession of arms requires it, and the nation needs it, it deserves it. I wasn't prepared for it. High school — I wouldn't say high school came easy for me. I would say I did well in high school, and I did well in high school by virtue of cramming and by virtue of instincts. So, I came to the Air Force Academy not really knowing how to study. I didn't know how to prioritize tasks or manage tasks well at all. And the Academy humbled me tremendously. Naviere Walkewicz Can you share a story about that? Brig. Gen. Marks Oh, well, I would say this, and the dean, who I know has also been on the Long Blue Leadership podcast as well, she would cringe. So, I never got an F, I'm proud to say, but I certainly am on the team of Ds. I received a D in Aero, and, if I recall, Astro, civil engineering when we had that as a core as well. And that was an incredibly humbling experience for me, because prior to that point, I had never had anything in my career lower than a C in high school or anything like that. And so that kind of thing makes you think, “What am I doing wrong here?” And as you are engaged in that type of introspection, you're still having to get ready for the PFT, and you're still having to get ready for this chemistry test, and you're still having to shine your shoes and get ready for this knowledge test, et cetera, et cetera. And so it was just in my mind, based on my training to that point, not enough time in the day for the reflection that I needed in order to make some changes to my habit pattern. And you're just trying to survive, and you're just showing up every day, one step at a time. So that made it very difficult: the inability for me to study, to not know how to study, the prioritization of tasks. I loved the military piece, and I probably spent more time on that than I should have spent on other things. My roommates would often comment on the fact that I would be shining my shoes for hours, and I would bypass the need to study until the last minute, until the test came. And that didn't work out very well for me. The other thing I would tell you is this: I wouldn't say that I got homesick, but it was a long way from home. It really was, and so going home really helped to fill my cup back up in terms of just being able to reacclimate with my family and those that were around me — extended family, church, friends, et cetera. It was a long way from home. I developed a lot of great friends in my squadron. We were in the same squadron all four years, Way of Life committee, gospel choir at the time as well. And then this team of friends that I had on the Cadet Honor Guard as well. What an interesting year that was on the Cadet Honor Guard. But we became incredibly close, and they're still close to this day. Naviere Walkewicz 14:47 So, I'd like to talk more about the Honor Guard, but before we get there, I think it's important for people to understand that when you find yourself in those tough situations in life and in experiences, how did you pull yourself out of that? You know, you obviously got through. So, something had to change. How did you maneuver that? Brig. Gen. Marks 15:06 So, I will start by saying this: I talked to my parents a lot, and their support was incredibly helpful for me. They approached it from a different perspective. You know, I learned a lot of great things from both of my parents: hard work, my father's work ethic, my mother and unconditional love and what that truly means. And so, when I'm talking to my parents about the rigors of the Academy experience, my mom would say, “You know, baby you can just quit and come on home and go to Georgia Tech. It's right around the corner, and we'd love to have you, and you don't need this.” And my dad would say, “You better not quit. If you come home, it's for Christmas and you're going back.” And reflecting on both of those comments, my mother was basically saying, “No matter what, we're gonna' love you.” My dad was saying, “No matter what, you can do this, I know you can do it.” And the amalgamation of those emotions and those messages really helped me a lot. It let me know that no matter what, I have support, but I also have the confidence of my parents as well, that leaning on friends is — the friend groups that I talked about as well was really important. And then to a large extent, I would say this: The ability to dig deep inside and pull yourself up even when you are struggling, or even when you are faltering, to be able to show up the next day is really, really important, that grit, that resilience — the thing that we preach to our cadets about now we try to instill in them through the rigors of the Academy experience. It's really important. It's not only important at the Air Force Academy, it's important throughout life, because life obviously throws so many different curveballs your way, right? Naviere Walkewicz 17:11 I appreciate that you shared that leaning into your support network, not only for their love and their confidence in you, but also it sounds like there was a bit of asking for help and what that was, and so I think that's important for people to hear too. While you are having to pull yourself up, there's no shame in asking for help along the way. Brig. Gen. Marks 17:27 Not at all. And I would tell you, my mother has so many letters at home and letters that I don't even remember writing during my time at the Air Force Academy, where I was explaining to her different things that were going on that would bring a smile to my face now, because I would be shocked that I would have said these things to my mother or my father in terms of what was taking place and the help that I perhaps needed at the time. Naviere Walkewicz 17:53 That's great perspective. So, you mentioned Honor Guard, and what an incredible year. I was not part of Honor Guard, but I did appreciate how they helped us stay militarily ready. What was that journey like for you? Brig. Gen. Marks 18:08 Hard. It was very, very difficult. What I would say is this: So the Cadet Honor Guard attracted me because of the discipline that they had, that they have because of what they represented for the institution as well. These were the cadets that in every formation, carried our nation's flag. These were the cadets that were held up as the example of what a good uniform looked like and what military professionals should strive to look like and resemble and the precision with which they drilled was incredibly impressive to me. And so, when they had an opportunity to showcase what they were about to the fourth-class cadets at the time, so that we could show interest in different clubs, et cetera… Naviere Walkewicz 19:02 Because you had to try out for honor guard. Is that correct, sir? Brig. Gen. Marks 19:06 I'm trying to think if I would call it a try-out. Naviere Walkewicz That's probably not the right word. Brig. Gen. Marks I think it's probably one of the greatest examples that I can talk to about just showing up, which is to say, “Come one, come all, and there's going to be a lot of physical activity, a lot of running, a lot of drill work, et cetera, all meant to condition you and build your endurance for challenging times when you're in formation, and bad weather and things of that nature, because you know, when you're carrying the nation's flag, it's a no-fail mission, and you can't drop it. And it doesn't matter that it's 20 degrees and 50 knots of wind, you can't drop it.” And so how do I build that into you: the importance of what you're doing means to not only this institution, not only to the Cadet Wing, but to the nation as well? It was a grueling year. It was a hard year. And so I think we started probably with 70-ish fourth-class cadets, and our team ended up at the conclusion at about 16. And that was our team, and that was the team that we carried forth throughout the remainder of our time at the Air Force Academy. And again, I still stay in touch with them to this day. It was a fantastic group of people. Naviere Walkewicz 20:35 That's incredible. So aside from Honor Guard and some of the time that you spent as a cadet, let's talk about your leadership as a cadet, because you've had multiple positions of leadership. Brig. Gen. Marks 20:47 So, the two that resonate most with me right now, and that I gained a tremendous amount from — the summer leading into my two-degree year I was the Basic Cadet Training group training non-commissioned officer. That's a mouthful, and so the privilege of being able to, and I'm gonna' use air quotes, “greet” every new appointee as they arrived on the bus to the base of the ramp was given to me, and it was quite an honor. And so, I got to get on the bus and welcome every single basic cadet in the Class of 1998. I will never forget that. And then the next summer, I was the Basic Cadet Training commander, like you were talking about in your earlier comments, Naviere Walkewicz I definitely recall that. Brig. Gen. Marks I had a lot of fun, and beyond the fun that you have as cadre during Basic Cadet Training, I had a lot of fun in this regard. As the training NCO, seeing the progress, the development of the basic cadets from I-day, or from that first day of basic training, until the Acceptance Day Parade, if you will, or until we handed them off to the Jacks Valley cadre was something that I really appreciated, because it was very, very noticeable: the changes in drill, the changes in customs and courtesies, the changes in uniform wear, the changes in Mitchell Hall decorum, the changes in how they kept their rooms, et cetera. It was noticeable. And I really appreciated being able to see the fruit of the labor of the cadre. As the BCT commander in so much that you can learn executive-level leadership as a cadet, it taught me a lot about that. So this is the first time that I had an opportunity to conduct my own staff meetings, to build my own staff, to chart a vision, to set objectives, to hold accountable. It taught me a tremendous amount beyond the fun and the great memories of walking across the stage with my taps on during the Fourth of July at A-Hall, which I absolutely still remember to this day, I absolutely remember to this day. But both of those experiences are indelible for me at this point. And I talked to the BCT cadre about them now, because I want them to know that this time that they have is so precious, precious not only because of the memories that they're going to make, but precious because of the impact that they're going to have on these basic cadets. They will remember them forever. They will remember them forever. Naviere Walkewicz 23:30 Truth. So, I think one of the things that is so unique about that: You said, it was the first time you had the experience of conducting kind of your own operations, or what that looked like, the battle rhythm, the vision. I think a lot of our listeners, you know, they look at you, you're a general, you've been a leader. You know all this. What are some of the things you learned about yourself in that experience that maybe you would share just some lessons in leadership in the early parts of your leadership journey? Brig. Gen. Marks 23:55 So, I learned very early on, probably as a three degree, that standards really, really matter. It crystallized for me as a probably a three degree, and it just continued to resonate throughout the rest of my career that standards matter greatly in our profession, and perhaps across all walks of life. They matter because of the fact that if we allow someone to not be questioned about meeting standards, we will likely allow further deterioration down the road and erosion down the road, which could lead to catastrophic occurrences. And I've seen it in numerous instances, whether we're talking about accidents, aircraft accidents, whether we're talking about units that have toxic cultures. Because oftentimes it starts with the breadcrumbs that you can walk back to the erosion of standards. There's a line that I love in John Wick. I'm a big John Wick fan. The fourth movie, the bad guy, I don't remember his name, said that his father used to tell him, “How you do anything is how you do everything.” And that is so powerful to me. It is so incredibly powerful. “How you do anything is how you do everything.” I believe that. I truly, truly do. And I learned that for the really, for the first time, as a three degree. I would also tell you perception matters. And I learned that as a firstie as well. How you conduct yourself — as Patton would say, “You're always on parade.” It's important. And if your staff thinks that you are cutting corners here or showing favoritism there, whether that's true or not, it's their reality, and they are going to respond based on how they view their reality, how they view the world in that context. And so, I as a firstie through the experience of the BCT group commander, began to truly pay attention to what perceptions I was perhaps enabling. How about I put it that way? Those are two that come to mind in terms of lessons in leadership that I learned here at the Air Force Academy. When I talk about the idea of building a staff and running a staff meeting, they seem minor. Building the staff was important because it was at that time that I realized that while I may have some things that I'm pretty good at, there are a lot of things that I'm not, and I want to surround myself with people that are good in those areas that I'm not. And so I was very, very deliberate in who I surrounded myself with from a BCT group staff perspective. And then I would also say it's important to, especially when you walk into a group for the first time, to know what you're going to say, to have an agenda for how you want to run things. Because that first impression when you walk in as the leader, as the boss, as the commander, et cetera, it's gonna matter. It is absolutely gonna matter, and you will never have another opportunity to make a good first impression. And so, I could go on and on. I learned a lot from my experiences here in leadership at the Air Force Academy. Naviere Walkewicz Those are excellent examples. Brig. Gen. Marks That's why I wanted to come back. While I understood what standards meant and the importance of them as a three degree, I didn't fully put together the impact that the Academy had on me until I was a captain. Leaving here, probably like you and others, I drove away as fast as I could. Naviere Walkewicz The rear-view mirror… Brig. Gen. Marks Absolutely, and I told myself that I would never be back here. Naviere Walkewicz Really? Brig. Gen. Marks I really did at that time, because enough time hadn't passed to allow me to reconcile all of the wonderful things that had taken place in my development during that four-year period. And it wasn't until I was a captain that I realized that who I was as a function of the Air Force was in large part due to the development that I had received at the Air Force Academy. I credit my parents as well, for sure, but the Air Force Academy, for sure, had a lot to do with that, and I wanted to give that back to other cadets. Naviere Walkewicz 29:03 Was that in a moment of reflection that you realized that, or was that — did something happen where you were like, “Wow, that's something that I kind of took from the Academy.”? How did you come to that realization? Brig. Gen. Marks 29:15 I was having — a lot of positive things occurred to me in my career. At that point, I was having a lot of successes, and at some point, I thought about the fact that while certainly I am truly blessed, and certainly there is some luck that plays into that as well, I at some point, through introspection, just kind of look back on the journey that I had gone through from being the knucklehead kid from Atlanta, Georgia, to being this captain in the Air Force, and the metamorphosis that occurred and how that happened. And, so I can only attribute it — some of that, again, is the development over time, when your parents are teaching you things and instilling values and virtue into you, and at the time, when you're a know-it-all teenager, you don't think that it's sinking in, but it does, and it shapes you over time. So, some of it's that, but some of it was the Academy itself. I will tell you this: So, there was a program that I participated in as a junior, I guess, in high school, where I got to come to the Academy for an overnight visit. And I stayed with a cadet, and what I remember about that is this: So I think I stayed two nights. But the first night I went to a pay phone to call a friend, and there was a $20 bill at the top of the pay phone. And so, I went back to the room to tell the cadet, “Hey, somebody left some money there,” and he said, “Don't worry about it. Whoever left it, they'll remember that they left it there, and they'll come back and get it.” And I was bewildered. I was like, I don't understand how that's possible. OK, so the next night, I went to the same pay phone, and it was still there. And I was blown away, and I never forgot that, that this is a place where honor really, really matters. And certainly my parents have integrity, and certainly they, you know, preached and instilled those types of values, but here at the United States Air Force Academy, it was practiced every single day, and it was visibly discernible to me throughout all facets of the Academy experience that undergirding these, you know, push-ups that I was doing and this chemistry test that I was taking, et cetera, was this honor code and these core values that all of us together share. And I just absolutely love that. Reflecting on that over the course of seven years changed my life, truly, for the better. Naviere Walkewicz 32:15 Thank you for sharing that story. And I actually got chill bumps just thinking about, well, I mean, but you're, right now, you can't think about a lot of places where you can leave something and it's probably still going to be there, or if it was identifiable, it would probably been returned. So, I think that is something we can be so proud of. So, you mentioned, sir, some of your successes. They were kind of, you know, happening outside of the Academy once you'd graduated. Let's talk about what your career looked like and what those successes were. Brig. Gen. Marks 32:50 So, I was a casual lieutenant. And I guess the claim to fame that I have is that I was Gen. Lorenz's casual lieutenant. So Gen. Lorenz was the commandant immediately after I graduated, went on to become a four-star general, and he is still incredibly active here in the Academy community, and being his casual lieutenant, specifically, his special projects officer, was enlightening in a lot of different ways. Gen. Lorenz is a great leader. He's a unique leader as well. And I learned a lot from being in his space, being in his presence, and seeing how he conducted business. Interestingly enough, when you walk up to the office spaces of the Cadet Wing where my office is, in the hallway is a display of all the previous commandants and their biographies. That was one of my projects as a lieutenant, believe it or not, a long, long, long, long time ago. And so, it gave me an opportunity to be able to research all of the previous commandants to that point and see the commonalities between them as well. So I did that for a little less than a year, and then I went to pilot training. Pilot training was hard. Pilot training was very, very hard. In fact, I came back, if I recall correctly, either in the middle of pilot training or just as I was graduating to talk to the Cadet Wing, the Class of 1998 — one of the classes, '98 or '99 — invited me back to talk at M5. Naviere Walkewicz I'd like to say it was us. Brig. Gen. Marks I would like to say it was you all too. Naviere Walkewicz Can I claim it? Brig. Gen. Marks And you all gave me the bird, and it was wonderful, and I still have that bird in my office to this day. And I talked about how hard pilot training was, but maybe you'll remember this. I listed the top five hardest things that I've ever done in my life to that point, and I can't remember — I remember No. 1, but I can't remember the exact order, but it was something along the lines of the four-degree year, the entire cadet experience, pilot training, SERE at the time, and my four-degree Honor Guard experience was No. 1 for sure. But all of that to say, just being able to come back to the Academy was a tremendous honor, especially for this silly second, actually, I was a first lieutenant at the time. So went to pilot training and then was selected to be able to stay at pilot training and be an instructor. I went from Columbus to Vance Air Force Base and did that for three years in the T-1, which I absolutely loved. The T-1, that aircraft was probably, if I had the resources, if I was well healed, I would buy myself a T-1 and if I could afford the maintenance. I absolutely love flying that plane and enjoyed my time in AETC. And really, there's nothing special about me. When you enjoy what you're doing and feel like you have a passion for it, oftentimes you're going to do well. I think that's that holds true for just about anybody. I did pretty well in the T-1. After that, I went to an internship at the Pentagon, and so I was there on 9/11 and I got my master's in D.C., left there. After that, I went to Tinker Air Force Base. I did not want to go fly AWACS, and I love AWACS now, but I did not at the time. And I remember when I drove up to the gate for the first time after my year in D.C., and the Security Forces airmen that saw me at the gate asked me, “Are you OK?” just based on the, luckily, based on the look on my face after driving cross country. But what was special about Tinker is that that is where I truly learned, as I would call it, meat-and-potatoes flying, stick-and-rudder flying, no kidding, no thrills and frills. In the AWACS aircraft, you've got to know how to move that jet where you need it to move. You've got to know how to compensate for the aerodynamics of the roto-dome when you're refueling, you've got to know how to fly. And I so it was very enjoyable in that regard, and just being operational was enjoyable. Tinker, though, what I will always credit Tinker for is this: Tinker is where I met my wife. Naviere Walkewicz 37:15 So I was gonna' ask when the magic happened. Brig. Gen. Marks 37:19 Yeah, it happened at Tinker. We met through a mutual friend and so, interestingly enough, I always say that the two best decisions I ever made in my entire life, I show on my left and my right hand: my wedding ring on my left, my class ring on my right. Best decisions I've ever made for myself. My wife is retired Air Force 23 years, and she was a first lieutenant, I was a captain. We met through a mutual friend and became friends, and over time, over a period of about a year and a half, we started dating. I asked her to marry me after another year and a half or so, probably a little longer than I should have waited. So, I arrived in 2002, we were married in 2005. Naviere Walkewicz 37:59 Was her uniform better than yours, sir. Brig. Gen. Marks 38:05 Oh, goodness, no. So my wife, she will listen to this. My wife would tell you that she has had a wonderful 23-year Air Force journey. Started off with 13 years enlisted time and went to OTS, et cetera. My wife would tell you that I am, I think the term is, I am very “ate up” in terms of the military. Hopefully your listeners know what that means. Naviere Walkewicz 38:32 Yes. Brig. Gen. Marks She was not, at all. Not at all. That was not her personality. Naviere Walkewicz They say opposites attract. Brig. Gen. Marks 38:35 But I think really, more than anything, what I loved about her, beyond her candor and her honesty, was her compassion as well, her intellect, her ability to be able to see the world in a different way than I saw it — for us to respect each other's opinions about different things, for her difference of a net of opinion, but how she viewed the Air Force and her journey through the Air Force differently than I viewed mine. But we respected each other's nonetheless. And my wife is the reason why I'm still serving and I say that because of this, if my wife was not still in love with this Air Force journey, I would have stopped. I absolutely would have, because being married — and our family is, I hate to say it, is more important to me, truly it is. And so, I would have absolutely stopped. But she loves it. I loathe PCSing. Can't stand it. I'm in a great career field, but my wife loves it, loves the excitement, loves thinking about what's next. And so as long as she's enjoying it, I'm enjoying it too. Yeah, she's my best friend, my best friend for sure. So, we met after that, got married. Fast forward, I left Tinker and went to a Staff assignment in Suffolk, Virginia, stayed there for about three years, went back to the T-1 as a director of operations, a commander in the 99th of Tuskegee Airmen heritage. Then I went to National War College, went to Staff, went back to Tinker, 10 years as the vice wing commander, Offut as the wing commander, back to Staff again, and then here as the commandant. Naviere Walkewicz 40:32 So, when did the idea trickle back to the mind of, “I want to get back to the Academy?” How did that come into play? Was that just a natural progression of your career? Or how? How does one navigate that? Brig. Gen. Marks 40:43 So, it was at the time this realization that it had changed me so much and so positively. How can I be a part of another person's just incredible admiration for the experience and appreciation for the experience that they had while they were here? And so, I started investigating becoming an AOC, because at the time, that was where my status in life was in terms of rank, and was the most appropriate, if you will. It just didn't work out for me in terms of the timing. Naviere Walkewicz 41:24 So, you'd already been looking throughout your career to come back. Brig. Gen. Marks 41:27 At different points in my career, so about the seven-year point is when I said, “No, I would really like to go back and give back.” And now it's a function of trying to maneuver the timing and all of the other facets that make up an assignment and career progression to try to see how that could work. As an Air Force intern, that counted as my in-residence intermediate developmental education. And so, because of that, I was fast-tracked to staff immediately. And so, timing just didn't work in terms of that intermediate level, getting back to the Academy and making a difference. And so, the next opportunity for me was as a lieutenant colonel, because at that time, our group commanders were group AOCs and they were lieutenant colonels, the opportunity didn't present itself and command of a flying squadron did, and so I absolutely jumped on that with both feet. The idea kind of was off in the back portions of my brain after graduating from command and it didn't come back into the forefront until I got back to the Pentagon because I view the Pentagon as most people do. You know, it's a necessary evil. There is tremendous virtuous work that takes place at the Pentagon. It really is. And I certainly don't mean to poo-poo it. Staff work is important. It's necessary. I wanted to get back into, no kidding, base, desperately. And it had been 27 years-ish to that point. I'd come back for coronavirus. I was working for Gen. Brown and for Secretary Kim. I came back for corona and that was one of the first times that I had been back. And I knew I had to get back here. And interestingly enough, I brought my check to Doolittle Hall. I wanted to be a life member, and I had my $800 check in my pocket. My wife gave me permission, and I was like, “I'm ready.” And I'll never forget this. I don't remember who I talked to, but she said, “Hey, if you wait just a few more months, it'll be free for everybody.” Naviere Walkewicz Membership for all graduates! Brig. Gen. Marks I was like, “Sweet!” And then she happened to look at my ring, and she's like, “You got a chip on your ring. Why don't you hand that over to us? Your buying this ring came with a lifetime warranty.” And I was like, “This is unbelievable. This is like, divine intervention. I gotta get back to this place. I love it.” Yeah, I'm so happy to be back here. Naviere Walkewicz 44:18 That is wonderful. So maybe before we go into arriving back here, kind of some of the surge of what that experience was like — what were some of the leadership nuggets, or the leaders that you worked either under with as peers, those you learned from that worked under you, that you kind of continued to evolve yourself as a leader. What were some of those that shaped you? Brig. Gen. Marks 44:39 So, I think I will start with my time at Tinker as a flight commander. I think one of the things that I learned then was the importance of being credible in an operational flying squadron. Yeah. Your worth is, especially in a flying squadron, especially as a CGO, your worth is in how well you fly, speaking for pilots in that career field. And so, when you fast forward that to now, what I tell junior officers is this, “As a CGO, your No. 1 objective, your sole objective, is to be a master of your craft. Nothing else really matters. Being a master at your craft is the recipe for success, and if you are not able to do that, it is going to be difficult for you.” So, I learned that at Tinker Air Force Base, I would say, fast forwarding a little bit further to some of my Staff assignments, I would imagine, one of the reasons why I have never been incredibly fond of Staff is because I have — there has never been a good fit for me in terms of the staff assignments that I've been in. I could argue maybe the last one was perhaps, but where I'm going is this: It taught me the need to be able to be adaptable to learn as you go, to be open to learning, and to be humble enough to ask a lot of questions. And I think that that's a tremendous leadership trait to have, to humble yourself to your team, to come in and say, “I don't know everything. I don't know all that you all are doing.” Your stories even, “Please help me to understand. Please teach me.” So Staff, for all of the pains at times, really has developed me to have a better appreciation for that. I would tell you in command, “Oh, my goodness, command is all I ever want to do,” which is both naive and probably a very elementary way of thinking about things I just love command, and command has taught me so much. Naviere Walkewicz 47:16 What do you love about command? Brig. Gen. Marks 47:20 So, command is special because there isn't really, not really. There isn't period another position in the military where you are statutorily and regulatorily responsible for mission and people, nothing else. There is no other position in the Department of Defense military like command and to — especially at the unit level, the squadron level — to have such an immediate impact on mission like you are able to, as a squadron commander, and have such a positive impact, direct impact on airmen's lives. It is so incredibly fulfilling. And as you progress and command at higher levels, the direct impact on individuals lives lessens, but the direct impact on mission grows exponentially. I absolutely, not only that, but as you command at higher levels. While the impact, and I probably should have said it this way, the impact that you would have on so many individual airmen's lives' lessons, the impact that you can have on an individual airman's life magnifies based on rank. It is significant also. And I always — one of the things that I tell people all the time is the… it's an oversimplification, but the only reason to have rank is to do good, is to do good things, to make things happen in a positive way that affect positively mission and benefit airmen's lives. That's it. That's all. And if it if rank becomes something different than that for you, you are in the wrong business, or we've given it to the wrong person, if I'm being honest with you. Naviere Walkewicz 49:11 Thank you for sharing that. So how did you find out that you — how did it work to become the commandant of cadets? Is that something that you're selected for? How did you find out? Brig. Gen. Marks 49:23 So, I — well for your listeners, there's a dream sheet, if you will. We have a module that we go into and identify things, jobs, positions, perhaps even locations that we think that our skill-set matches up nicely for or that match our family circumstances, and in that module, I talked about the fact that I wanted to be able to give back to the Air Force Academy in this way. And talked about the fact that for 20 years or so, give or take, I have been trying to get back here to be able to have an impact. And I listed some of the things that I felt enabled me to have that type of impact. And then I got a call from the colonel's group or the general officer's group. I can't remember which one, probably general officer's group, that said, “Hey, the superintendent would like to interview you.” And I said, “OK, very good. I look forward to talking to a superintendent.” And what I will tell you is this: It is very difficult to prepare for an interview like that. Number one, you know, in the short amount of time that you're given to prepare for it. And then two, you just really don't know what you're going to be asked. And my knowledge of the Academy was very, very dated, you know, for 27 years ago when I graduated. But I said, “OK, let's go. Let's do it.” And so, I talked to him on the way home from the Pentagon in my car driving home, and we had a really nice conversation. And I remember parking in our driveway, and I remember staying in the driveway for about 15 more minutes as the conversation concluded, and I remember going into the house, and I remember talking to my wife, and I said, “You know, there are probably a number of people that interviewed, and they are, I'm positive, incredibly well suited for the position. There's always somebody better.” That's another great lesson that the Academy taught me, is there's always somebody better. But I said, “I think I feel like that went well. I don't know that I could have given any more to that interview.” Eventually, the superintendent made a decision. The superintendent had to vet that decision through higher levels as well. And eventually you come out on a list and it is announced that this is your next job. Naviere Walkewicz That's how you found out? You saw the list? Brig. Gen. Marks So admittedly, you know, birdies are talking to me ahead of time. But at the same time, you are just as a professional, more than anything else that is, that's meant to be private information for just and your family to kind of get your mind wrapped around those types of things. Because, as we've seen over the course of numerous years now, sometimes these lists come out later, and if you were to find out solely by that, that's not a lot of time to house hunt. That's not a lot of time to arrange schools. That's not a lot of time to arrange PCSing, you know, those types of things. So, and in this particular case, I needed to PCS from the Pentagon. I needed to perform a promotion ceremony. I needed to work a change of command ceremony here as well. And so, my wife and I joke, now this last move was the most difficult move we've ever, ever had, because I did all that in 30 days. Naviere Walkewicz 53:27 Wow, it was a lot, but this was probably one that you were both excited for, not just her. Brig. Gen. Marks 53:31 Oh, we were. The amount of YouTube videos that we watched in our household about basic training and about the Wings of Blue, just to get our kids excited about this, which is why, I mean — there is no excuse for not knowing what you're walking into at the Air Force Academy, because there are thousands of videos out there. Yeah, and so we were very excited, and the kids were incredibly well educated on what they could expect, everything from the wildlife that's on the installation, to the climate and the altitude, to what cadet life was going to be like. And so, we were really excited. And I remember — and because the kids had never been here at all, my wife and I had taken a trip here early in our marriage, our kids had never seen it and the excitement over the five days of driving was just really, really building up. And so, when we finally were able to see the big white box on the horizon, Naviere Walkewicz Yes, the chapel-in-the-box. Brig. Gen. Marks Yeah, when we were able to see that, and I was pointing to it as we were driving, they were just, they were just absolutely bubbling over with excitement. It was amazing. Naviere Walkewicz 54:34 How did you feel when you saw it? Brig. Gen. Marks 54:38 Very, very excited. A little overwhelmed. Also, I would tell you, I was really — I was both naive and I was also incredibly humbled and respectful of what I was walking into. Naive in this regard: I felt like, my goodness, I don't know that I've ever been more prepared for a position that I'm walking into than being the commandant of cadets at the Air Force Academy. Because I graduated from here. I surely have to be well prepared and well suited. You know nothing about the inner workings of the Air Force Academy as a cadet. Nothing, nothing. And so, there was so much to learn about governance, not only that — I will tell you this: I had some troubles academically. I never had any run-ins from an honor perspective. I never had any discipline issues, either. And I don't say that to sound self-congratulatory. I say that to show my ignorance, because there were significant gaps in my knowledge and my understanding of how to manage the Cadet Wing, because I had never had any experience with honor, I'd never had any experience with discipline, and so I had to dive into those when I got here and learn that where somebody else might not have had to do that. Very respectful of what I was — the Academy is an incredibly special place. It is also, I don't say this, I don't mean this pejoratively, it is also a lightning rod for attention. There is always attention being drawn to the Air Force Academy and coming into the institution knowing that, it certainly had my attention up front, and I realized also that the opportunity to shape 4,000 cadets and to be able to be the one with a great, amazing team responsible for their military development, their character and leadership development, to ensure that on graduation they had achieved everything that they needed to do in terms of commissioning education to be responsible for their honor education, to be the one that is ultimately overseeing cadet life, it's an awesome, awesome responsibility, and I had a tremendous amount of respect for it when I came into the institution. So overwhelmed in that regard. Naviere Walkewicz 57:22 I almost could feel through your eyes what you just expressed in coming back and seeing the Academy again and I think this is a wonderful time, because some of us have had the opportunity, whether it's been recent reunions, to hear you speak at reunion briefings, to catch a glimpse of you know, some of the changes or some of the things that you've brought back. Maybe this is an opportunity to share what's Academy life like now, but through the eyes of the commandant. What would you like to share with our listeners? Brig. Gen. Marks 57:49 So, I would tell you and your listeners that the life of a cadet has changed and is going to change even more. So, I would start much more strategic and talk about this geo-strategically. Being in an era of great power competition, we recognize that because of who our competitor is, because of the advances that they have made, et cetera, it is incredibly important. It's critical for us to rethink how we do just about anything. Rethink how we train, how we develop, how we organize, how we employ force, how we sustain that employment of force, everything. At the Air Force Academy we're in a developmental business and so it's important for us to step back and ask ourselves, with no indictment on the past and the cadets and the lieutenants, rather that we have created and that we have graduated, but right now today, are we doing everything that we can to ensure that the lieutenants that we graduate are ready to lead on Day 1 and win ultimately, should deterrence fail in great power competition? In that deep dive, we have to explore some of the training techniques that we employ here and whether they are applicable on the outside and the force the greater force, or whether they are potentially creating a hazard of negative transfer, we have to ask ourselves whether some of the traditions that we enjoy, or that we have enjoyed here at the United States Air Force Academy, are appropriate for this day and age, send the wrong message, or are potentially harmful in terms of our culture and our climate. Deep diving into all those things, one of the things that I've come to the realization about is this: What I want to be able to do is ensure that a cadet that has graduated — and I know that I won't be here for four years, but assuming that I was — meeting a cadet on I-Day and walking with them through four years, I want to make sure that they feel like they got their money's worth from a military development perspective or military training perspective. And here's what I mean by that: Anecdotally, as I talked to cadets, hundreds of cadets, and talked about their journey at the Air Force Academy, one of the things that I found is that the institution and the curriculum challenged them as a four degree. I think that is universal. But I would also say, and I would imagine, that many of your listeners who are grads would agree that once you were out of your four-degree year, the institution allowed for it to be, if this was your desire, very easy for you to coast militarily, or, dare I say, potentially hide militarily. And I didn't want that. I wanted essentially the same level of rigor that is placed on you academically and the same level of rigor that is placed on you physically and athletically to be placed on you militarily. Said another way, the same sweaty palms that you get in anticipation of your GR are the same sweaty palms that you get in anticipation of your PFT. I want you to have an anticipation of your inspection, or an anticipation of your formation, or an anticipation of your knowledge test, et cetera, throughout your four years. And so, we have evolved our thinking and more importantly, our focus to developing across all four years with the same level of diligence and the same level of rigor that we placed in our fourth-class development. And so the moniker, or the catch phrase, the bumper sticker that we use is that we have transition from a focus on the fourth-class system, to a four-class system, where you can expect, as a rising three degree, or as a rising two degree, to be taught what we need you to do in terms of your military development, expectations and responsibilities, let loose to go practice those things, those supervisory skills, et cetera; assessed on those things, taught warfighting skills as well, that will prepare you for great power competition, et cetera, et cetera. And I can go into a lot more detail, but suffice it to say, this is a significant shift in how we've been operating, and it's a shift for the better, because this is what our nation needs. This is putting us in a better position to be ready on Day 1 to lead and to win on Day 1. So, I'm really excited about it. Naviere Walkewicz That is exciting. Brig. Gen. Marks We're also bringing some rigor back into expectations about what it means to be a member of the Cadet Wing. So, in other words, we are increasing the number of formations. We are increasing the number of inspections. We are putting our money where our mouth is with respect to the fact that we say and rightly so, that we value character. We are now adding that too as a function of how we assess from a military performance average perspective, how we assess character, because it's so important, it's so critical. There are a lot of changes that are happening for the better, and these changes are going to affect not only the readiness of our cadets, but it's going to affect the culture of our Wing as well in a positive way. It's just going to take some time. Naviere Walkewicz 1:04:00 That's outstanding. Do you see that trickling up as well into some of the officers that are involved in this, with you, and shaping the cadets — so the AOCs, also your AMTs, and how they're doing that? Is that part of this as well? Brig. Gen. Marks 1:04:13 It is, and I'll be honest with you, I don't want to be short-sighted or to minimize the impact that the entire institution is going to have. Believe it or not, the touch points that our faculty have, our coaches and staff have, they are abundant, and we would be doing ourselves and our cadets a disservice if all of us in lockstep were — not attacking the problem, but weren't in this together in terms of this development and this approach that we're taking. And so we are. We absolutely are. The dean and I are classmates. We have a tremendous and positive relationship, same with the athletic director and the executive director of Athletics as well. And together we have coffee on a regular basis, and we share ideas and talk about our approaches so that we can together positively impact our cadets. So yes, it is an all-of-USAFA approach and an all-in approach. Naviere Walkewicz 1:05:22 Absolutely love that. Well, I have two questions. I want to give them to you so you have a chance to think about. The first one being, you know, as a commandant, what keeps you up at night? I think that's something on the minds of our listeners. But then also, would you share maybe, what's something that you're so proud of that's happened since you've been here kind of under your leadership, and maybe something that you're not so proud of? And you can answer those however you'd like. Brig. Gen. Marks 1:05:48 What keeps me up at night is the resilience of cadets. And let me explain that just a little bit. In no way is that an indictment of a generational thing; this generation of cadets is less. Not at all. It's me talking about human behavior and saying that our program is difficult, it's challenging, and individuals respond in different ways to that, and what keeps me up is an individual feeling like there is no way out. That bothers me a lot. It really, realy, really concerns me a tremendous amount. And so I spend a lot of time talking to our command teams about this and about the need for us to administratively ensure that we are being as efficient as possible when we adjudicate certain matters, because what we don't want to do is leave someone dangling in terms of decision making for months and months on end, because that exacerbates that problem and my concern. In terms of what I am most proud of — so, the jury is still out, but here's what I'll say: I'm very proud of a lot of things. I'm proud of the team we've assembled. I'm proud of the work that is being done at the Staff level. I'm proud of the work that our commanders and our AMTs are doing. Our commanders, our AOCs. I am also very proud of the partnership that we have across the installation. That partnership has enabled us to make a significant change to what is called the schedule of calls, the construct that defines how cadets, day to day, spend their time, essentially. We have made a significant change to it that enables us to provide a more professionalized delivery of commissioning education. It has allowed for us to provide some white space in cadets lives, significant white space. It has allowed for us to build in time for unit fitness. Unit fitness being the operative phrase there, because the unit is so important and developing that cohesion is so important. It ha
Perhaps best known for his accomplishments on the field, at its core, Coach Troy Calhoun's work is about building athletes in to leaders of character.----more---- SUMMARY In this conversation, Coach Troy Calhoun discusses his journey from childhood to becoming the head football coach of the Air Force Falcons. He talks about his upbringing in a family of service and the influence of his parents. Coach Calhoun shares his experiences as a cadet at the Air Force Academy and the lessons he learned in leadership. He also discusses the intersections of athletics and academics and the importance of patience in navigating the highs and lows of life. In this conversation, Coach Troy Calhoun discusses the importance of resilience, patience, and delayed gratification in the pursuit of success. He emphasizes the need to slow down and assess challenges, rather than seeking instant affirmation. Coach Calhoun shares examples of cadets who have shown tremendous growth and success after facing initial difficulties. He also highlights the importance of instilling values and standards in his players, both on and off the field. Coach Calhoun discusses his philosophy on leadership, which includes being right alongside his people, knowing his craft well, and creating an environment where ideas and perspectives are valued. He also emphasizes the significance of believing in and supporting others. Outside of football, Coach Calhoun enjoys spending time with his family, learning, and maintaining a balance in life. He concludes by emphasizing the importance of passion, involvement with people, and the development of others in leadership. OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "Coach Calhoun can easily be considered a game changer and trailblazer shaping the world of sports, leadership and beyond." "You gotta go serve the people." "The discipline, the attention to detail, and the unselfishness for what was required and demanded in terms of teamwork." "If you push forward when you come out the other side, just the additional strength, the confidence." "Maybe you can share a story? And what I'm thinking about is when you talk about patience and affirmation showing in an outcome that is later on." "You know, I think it is more difficult than ever for a teenager, for all human beings." SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK | TWITTER | LINKEDIN CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction and Background 01:50 Childhood and Upbringing 04:25 Discovering the Air Force Academy 05:22 Life as a Cadet 09:00 Leadership and Mentorship 10:27 Intersections of Athletics and Academics 13:23 Lessons in Leadership 16:06 Navigating Challenges and Growth 19:43 Transition to Coaching 22:54 Coaching and Leadership 23:23 Values and Character Development 25:46 The Power of Resilience and Patience 30:08 Instilling Values and Standards for Success 31:59 The Philosophy of Leadership 35:18 Believing in and Supporting Others 42:30 Finding Balance and Pursuing Personal Interests 49:34 Passion and Involvement in Leadership 51:59 The Reward of Developing Others TAKEAWAYS Coach Calhoun's upbringing in a family of service shaped his values and commitment to leadership. His experiences as a cadet at the Air Force Academy taught him the importance of discipline, time management, and teamwork. Coach Calhoun emphasizes the value of mentorship and the impact it can have on young people. The intersections of athletics and academics provide opportunities for personal growth and leadership development. Navigating the highs and lows of life requires patience and a willingness to learn and grow. Resilience and patience are key qualities for success in any endeavor. Delayed gratification can lead to greater strength and confidence. Instilling values and standards is important for personal and professional development. Leadership involves being involved with and supporting your people. Believing in and supporting others can help them achieve more than they thought possible. Maintaining a balance in life and pursuing personal interests is important for overall well-being. Passion and involvement with people are essential in leadership. Developing others and helping them grow is a rewarding aspect of leadership. ABOUT COACH CALHOUN BIO Air Force Academy Head Football Coach Troy Calhoun graduated USAFA with the class of ‘89. Coach Calhoun can easily be considered a game-changer and trailblazer, shaping the world of sports, leadership and beyond. He is the very dynamic head coach of the Air Force Falcons football team. Known for his innovative approach and unwavering commitment, Coach Calhoun has led the Falcons through remarkable seasons, transforming them into a formidable force in college football and as warfighters. With a career that spans over a decade at Air Force Academy, Coach Calhoun has earned a reputation for building resilient teams and cultivating emerging leaders using a blend of discipline and inspiration. We'll walk through his journey from his days as a child, to becoming a cadet, then on to coaching and the challenges and triumphs he's experienced in and out of sports. We'll explore his unique strategies, his philosophy on leading and what it takes to succeed at the highest levels of leadership. He is among the most recognizable and respected figures in football. - Image credit: Ryan Hall, USAFA AOG CONNECT WITH COACH CALHOUN RADIO SHOW | AIR FORCE FOOTBALL | FULL BIO ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates! TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Guest: Coach Troy Calhoun '89 | Host: t. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Navier Walkewicz My guest today is Air Force Academy head football coach Troy Calhoun, USAFA Class of '89. Coach Calhoun can easily be considered a game changer and trailblazer, shaping the world of sports, leadership and beyond. He is the very dynamic head coach of the Air Force Falcons football team and a 2023 recipient of the Association of Graduates' Leadership Achievement Award. Known for his innovative approach and unwavering commitment, Coach Calhoun has led the Falcons through remarkable seasons, transforming them into a formidable force in college football and as warfighters. With a career that spans over a decade at the Air Force Academy, Coach Calhoun has earned a reputation for building resilient teams and cultivating emerging leaders using a blend of discipline and inspiration. We'll walk through his journey from his days as a child to becoming a cadet, then on to coaching and the challenges and triumphs he's experienced in and out of sports. We'll explore his unique strategies, his philosophy on leadership and what it takes to succeed at the highest levels. This promises to be an insightful and engaging conversation with one of the most respected figures in football and leadership. Coach Calhoun, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Coach Calhoun Well, thank you, Naviere, and what an honor it is to be a part of your show. Naviere Walkewicz Well, this is an honor for us, and I think what our listeners really appreciate about each of our guests is they kind of know a little bit about them, but once they start to learn about your paths and your journey, I think they really find ways to connect with you. So we hope that this will continue that trend so that they feel just as connected to Coach Calhoun as we do. Coach Calhoun We sure hope so. So let's kick it off, right? Naviere Walkewicz Yes, let's do it. So, Coach, the way we like to start, we like to roll back the dial, we go back to when you were a child. What were you like as a child? Where'd you grow up? Coach Calhoun You know, I grew up in southern Oregon. Ironically, we settled in a town, it was a lumber town, which at that time was very labor-intensive. My dad was a high school teacher and a high school coach. My mom raised the kids and as soon as the kids started grade school — myself and my younger sister — she went and got a two-year nursing degree and then worked as an emergency room nurse. Naviere Walkewicz Wow, so you guys have a just a family of service. Coach Calhoun That's exactly it. I can't tell you how many times I heard my mom say, “You know —" we'd ask mom, “Hey mom, don't you know it's a holiday, it's Thanksgiving, it's, you know, you don't have to go to work today.” And she said, “No, you gotta go serve the people.” The way that resonates now when you look back and to have that kind of figure that way was very inspirational, still is. Naviere Walkewicz That's wonderful. And I can imagine that. So what were some of the experiences like in the Calhoun household when you were a child? Coach Calhoun You know, my dad, obviously being a coach, goodness, he knew so much about every sport, whether it was basketball or baseball. So myself and my younger sister, we both played all kinds of sports. It was year round. It was wiffle ball in our front yard, or it was, we learned how to pole vault at a really young age, which was hard to do. We had a little paved cement area and we had a basket on each end. So we were always playing 2-on-2 or 3-on-3 basketball. Naviere Walkewicz So who would win, your sister or you? Coach Calhoun She'd tell you she always won, but it was just an unbelievable upbringing that way. Naviere Walkewicz My goodness. So you're in sports, no one in your family was serving in the military though, so how did that even touch your family? Coach Calhoun You know, great question. My mother had three brothers. This was in the early '60s. They were around 20, 22 years old and each enlisted: one in the Marines, one in the Navy and one in the Army. So we really thought, well, that's about the extent of it. And at the beginning of my senior year high school, I got a call from the Air Force Academy, one of the football coaches, who shared a little bit about the Academy. And I really, to be candid, I had no idea. I really didn't. And so my mom goes into work the next morning and asked one of the ER docs, who was also in the Reserves, and said, “Hey, there's this place called the Air Force Academy that called Troy last night, but I really would like for him to go somewhere where he can get an education. Do you know anything about the place?” And immediately one of the docs said, “Joan, if he has that opportunity, you have to make him go.” And she took it literally to heart. And ironically, two years later, my sister also came to the Air Force Academy too. Naviere Walkewicz Wow. truly connected. So let's talk about that. So your mom kind of helped facilitate that encouragement. What did that look like? So you came out here, what was that experience like? Coach Calhoun You know the very first day I arrived here was the first day of basic training, which is not the way to do it. Naviere Walkewicz You knew you were coming for football, but you had not been here yet. Coach Calhoun I had not because I played three sports in high school. I played football… Naviere Walkewicz Then you went right into basketball, then you went right into baseball… Coach Calhoun In the summers, it was all three. It was baseball in the evenings playing games. You'd have football workouts in the afternoon, and I ran the YMCA basketball camp in the morning for younger kids. So, yeah, Day 1 of arrival here was July 5, the morning of July 5, 1985. The first four days, I'm just telling you, I thought, “No way. How do I get out of here?” And I just vividly recall whether you're brushing your teeth or shaving thinking, “There's no way.” And then I got to thinking, you know, “Your mom's an ER nurse in an area where there are lot of significant accidents,” because it was the lumber industry, whether it was, you know, trees falling, accidents at the mill. I mean, just all kinds of different things. And I remember once in a while she'd come home, I thought, “Goodness, she had a real game that day. It's not one of those where the ball bounces one way or the other. And there's no way you can call home and say, no, this isn't for me.” Naviere Walkewicz So that makes sense. You develop that deep resilience you saw from your mom. So I want to talk, before we go into the Academy, let's talk about — you had that great family, it was shown to you as embodied through your mom, your dad, and obviously you and your sister. Were there any other leaders that inspired you? Your own coaches as well, or just teachers? Coach Calhoun Yeah, absolutely. I was blessed to have some really, really outstanding teachers. I don't know why. Math was always a strength, which I think helps while you're here at the Academy, they jump you right into calculus and then Calc 2 and then later on it's Aero and it's Astro. But the other part was to have teachers that taught you the value of history, you know, to understand yesterday. And we're always living to make the most of the present in the moment and what kind of vision we can put forth for the future. But to learn from some of the mistakes in the past, to learn from the good things in the past, just to know where that can be applied as we move forward too. And my high school football coach was incredibly influential. He ran an incredible program where not only did they win a lot, but more importantly than the result were the standards, the discipline, and more than anything else, just the attention to detail and the unselfishness for what was required and he demanded in terms of the teamwork. Naviere Walkewicz So you actually were living the life of a cadet as a high school football player. Coach Calhoun I tease people about this when I'm asked back home once in a while and I say, you know, all those times you were lining up just getting through the first 10 minutes of practice — which was stretching where you couldn't put your toes on the line, they had to be just behind it — I said, “After playing for Coach Thurman Bell in high school, basic training wasn't all that hard.” So, absolutely I do. Naviere Walkewicz I love that. OK, so the Academy recruited you for football, you showed up and you made it through basic training. So, let's talk a little bit about your life as a cadet, because I think we appreciate this about our athletes. We've had a chance to talk with Karl Falk, who was also on the team. I think what's interesting is there's more to the cadet life than just one facet. And so while I think athletics is a huge part of it, what were you like as a cadet? What were some of your experiences? Coach Calhoun You know, I actually did really well on the MPA part of it. I think the academic end took me a little bit of time, to be frank. Now I end up making the Dean's List towards the end of my time here at the Academy a few times. And yet you learn the value of time management. We're all blessed with the ability to make good choices, to be disciplined, to work hard. We all have that talent. And I think that's a key part of moving forward to coaching. You realize how important that is to share with young people. Yeah, that's in there, now we gotta tap into it. And certainly here at the Academy, it's just invaluable, all those intrinsic qualities that I think come to the surface. And I certainly felt that way, in a good number of facets were just how transformational it was for you as a human being. Naviere Walkewicz Some of our listeners are early in their leadership journeys and so I think there is a period of time where maybe there's more peer leadership. Can you share some examples when you're a cadet, what did that look like to you and where did you maybe struggle or soar? Coach Calhoun I'll say this, during the four-degree year I was fortunate enough to be with the older guys and to travel a good bit and so you naturally looked up to some of those juniors and seniors and those older players, and the older cadets too. I think the part that was so — it made such an imprint while you were here was really the strong interest that older students took, in this case older cadets, their first year, two-degree year, they're juniors or seniors in college, but how committed they were to younger grades, because, candidly, you rarely experience that maybe when you're in high school or even on other teams. Boy, I just, I thought that's so incredible where the older guys want to help the younger guys on your team or the older cadets truly do — the way they're invested and how much they care about the younger generation. Naviere Walkewicz Was there one in particular that kind of took you under his wing that there's something that you carry with you now in the way that you lead? Coach Calhoun I had so many, you know, they were teachers. I think that was the other part that was absolutely awesome. I think we both felt this at times, maybe in different ways. The commitment of our faculty here at the Academy, you know, to be able to go get extra instruction. You complete a quiz and maybe you didn't do real well on that quiz and the instructor comes to you and says, “Hey, let's find a time where we can get together,” and I think we know how unique that is in higher-level education in this day and age because there are a good number of universities where the classroom size may have 250 or 300 students, or there may be a teaching assistant or a graduate assistant, but here the expertise and truly the commitment to the cadets, it just made it even more inspiring to say, “All right, I want to be a good student while I'm here.” Naviere Walkewicz You actually are seen and felt in the classrooms here for sure. So you saw some of your upperclassmen really kind of pouring into you. How did that translate in your leadership as a cadet, either on the field or off? Coach Calhoun No doubt. I think not only, you know, while you're young person growing up, whether it's in your home, playing sports or you're working in a job or you're in your squadron during your time in Vandenberg or Sijan, you see so many different ways to lead or to have impact. A lot of good and honestly, there are some times where you say, “No that might not be the most effective way to reach and to encourage and to mentor somebody,” and I try like crazy to learn from everybody, you know, because no matter what the encounter is or the experience, maybe let's pull from it. Naviere Walkewicz Is there anything from when you were a cadet that you carry now with you as a coach and leader? Coach Calhoun Yeah, an immense amount. I think more than anything else, you have to do everything you possibly can and it's no way can you put yourself in the soles of each person, but to realize that every human being is a unique individual. Are we trying to build teams? Absolutely. But we're trying to bring the most to tap into those talents of each person and to do everything we can to help them sprout. Naviere Walkewicz I think I can share firsthand with our listeners: I've had the great honor of listening to you introduce your team, introduce your coaches and I think what's so impressive about you is it's beyond just their name and maybe some of their stats, but you know them as people and you know them as how they are in their families. And I think that translates really, really well to all those pieces you just spoke to. Coach Calhoun Well, I appreciate it. I'll tell you this: I want to know them as deeply as you possibly can. I think in order to be the most effective for our team's sake, again, it's got to be person by person. And I truly believe in this day and age, it's easier to reach a young person than it's ever been. Not everybody would agree with that. And I say that from the standpoint — we all do, we spend so much time looking at a monitor or a phone or, you know, that whenever we have real human interaction and their sincerity, you know, there's a genuine feeling where this person's trying to help me grow as a leader, grow as a person, do a little better academically and realize the value of education or help me develop as a better football player too. Naviere Walkewicz Just to dig into that a little bit more, I think part of leadership is being able to have conversations that help people grow. Sometimes that's, “Hey, this is a good fit for you, this is not a good fit for you.” When you were a cadet, how did you navigate some of those conversations that's translated over time? Because I know a lot of our listeners feel like that's one of the biggest challenges in leadership. It's great when things are great, but when things aren't, how do we navigate that? Coach Calhoun Well, honesty. If you provide me, it may be critical, but I know you're doing it to help correct or to improve, you got me. I think the other part is to have a forever appetite and thirst to learn and to grow. And I think when that's really your heart, your mindset, that you're completely open to understand and various viewpoints that will help you do exactly that. Naviere Walkewicz I think that's powerful for people to really intake because, especially when it's coming from a place of care, and I think that's what we're in the business of and being open to feedback is really critical for leadership. So I'd like to transfer to when you graduated from — well actually before we do that, your sister was here. How were you as a cadet supporter of her? Coach Calhoun You know she had an amazing four years here at the Air Force Academy. She graduated No. 1 in her major academically, was a 10-time All-American distance runner in track and cross country, won six NCAA championships as a runner. Her senior year she was the NCAA champion in cross country and then won five other national championships in indoor and outdoor track. You know, she teases her brother a little bit. “So,” she says, you know, “you must suffer from big brother syndrome or older brother syndrome.” I say, “Cool it, young lady.” But, you know, she made the utmost of the cadet, the Academy experience. And truly I, boy, in so many ways, I looked up to my younger sister and I still do. Naviere Walkewicz Well, I understand why you chose baseball. So let's talk about when you graduated. What were the early years of post-graduation like for you? Coach Calhoun Yeah, I stayed for one year here at the Academy as a graduate assistant football coach and also taught a PE class. I'm thinking initially, “This will be kind of neat. You'll let down a little bit after you've been at the Academy.” But it was an awesome leadership experience. You know, the mentorship, the interaction, especially with the new cadets or new basics going through basic training, during that four-degree year being able to help them plan their schedule academically or teach them how if they have better footwork for this particular call they'll execute a play a little bit better or just interacting with them as people. My goodness, you realize, I mean just the various backgrounds, the interests, maybe the motivational levels too because that's real, the different strengths in terms of skills and talents — that was where you realized, my goodness, as a leader, as a coach in this case, how helpful you can be. Naviere Walkewicz Is that when the seeds were planted for you that you knew you wanted to coach golf and football down the road? Coach Calhoun You know, that wasn't the plan, it really wasn't. In fact, I really wanted to go to pilot training. Naviere Walkewicz So after that first year, what happened? Coach Calhoun Well, you have your physical late in your junior year, it was March of your two-degree year. And at that time, they said there's a little bit of distance concern. And we didn't have LASIK or PRK, you know? And so you end up taking a little different path naturally. Naviere Walkewicz So after you did the year here kind of teaching and also supporting the team, what did you do? Coach Calhoun I worked in management information systems in the Air Force and specifically it was a program where if the president, the commander-in-chief, had to send an EAM literally from one of the legs of the triad to launch, is it a real message? Can you authenticate the message? And is it dual key where it's truly two people that say, “Yep, it's a go?” Trying to recreate some of the roles and the intensity of what that situation may be and being able to get to execution and just to see it in so many fascinating ways because you saw it at the field level, with longer range missiles, the ICBMs, being able to interact with that community, to interact with a contractor for software for hardware, just every facet of it that way — you had an awful lot on your plate in terms of managerial leadership responsibility. Naviere Walkewicz Right off the bat, I'm familiar with that — I'm actually retired strategic command so, yes, everything you just shared is definitely important. So you did that, and then what happened? Coach Calhoun You know, I got a call when I was a first lieutenant from the Academy that said, “We'd like for you to come back.” So I came back for what would have been years five and six, my first two years as a captain here to the Air Force Academy and coached during those two years and recruited during those two years. One of the assistants on the staff, Jim Grobe, became the coach at Ohio University. He asked a few of us that were here at the Academy — It was Brian Knorr, was Billy Mitchell, it was... And then he went and asked Tim DeRuyter, who was a 1985 graduate of the Academy, if we wanted to join him at Ohio University. And that's exactly what we did. Naviere Walkewicz So you started your team there, and now we see a lot of that team has been part of this Falcon family as well. Coach Calhoun Absolutely, you know, and I think, you know, you just kind of knew immediately so much of what we leaned on initially were the lessons that we learned while we're here at the Academy. Naviere Walkewicz Can I pull on that thread a little bit? You're here as a captain, you're coaching. Let's talk about the intersections of athletics and academics because I think that's really important for our listeners just to understand, how you said earlier, those leadership skills translate. Can you talk a little bit more about that — what you saw in the cadets from your perspective as a coach? Coach Calhoun Well, I think I think there are so many different reasons why cadets come to the Academy. There are a good number of them that are either second-generational, second-generation or multi-generational in terms of military families. We probably, I know we do, we have many that are first-generational as far as being the reason why they chose to come to the Academy. Naviere Walkewicz Like you. Coach Calhoun Yeah. And yet what's neat is the rewarding part of it, whether it's seven years later or 15 years later, being able to see how many of them have absolutely thrived once they go on to active duty or even beyond in the civilian sector too. Just, boy, I mean, it's a process. It truly is. If everybody was ready on Day 1, we wouldn't need a United States Air Force Academy. We'd commission them right away. But during those four years, 47 months, the ups and the downs, so many different mistakes that are made, but to learn and to grow from those mistakes, I don't think we can ever take for granted. There's a reason why from really initially, the very first week, there's so many things that are spelled out in terms of our values. When it comes to respect for each human being, the work ethic, always give a third effort, the resiliency and the grit part of it, that really — that's what we want them to internalize in terms of the fortitude and the character. And then we go on to the other skills when they're here a little bit longer at the Academy. Naviere Walkewicz So some of our listeners love when there's shared ways of how they can navigate. You talked about some of those highs and lows. And I'm sure that happens in life, right? Not just on the field, but also academically and all of the different facets of life. So what would be just something you would share with a leader that's helping someone navigate through the highs and lows that's kind of cyclical? Coach Calhoun Yeah, I think more than anything else is to be patient, which kind of works a little bit… while you're here at the Academy initially. So much of it is creating an instant impulse or the instant drive rather than saying, “No. We're working with human beings here.” There are going to be some bumps and some struggles and some adversity, but let's help them realize that what may look like a real challenge, and it is a real challenge, or a real time of difficulty, if you push forward when you come out the other side, just the additional strength, the confidence, the forever resiliency that hopefully has become internalized. Naviere Walkewicz I love that. Teach a little bit of patience because I think in a society that is running so fast, everything is instantaneous, to teach our cadets, our future leaders, et cetera, to slow down and really kind of assess. Is that what you mean? Coach Calhoun Absolutely. And you hit the nail on the head. In this day and age, how quickly we can get anything, we think we're getting so much instant affirmation. That somebody re-liked or re-tweeted something that I said. You know, we think that's real affirmation. Or maybe that's not the case in terms of it really being best in terms of our well-being. Naviere Walkewicz So maybe can you share a story? And what I'm thinking about is when you talk about patience and affirmation showing in an outcome later on, maybe talk through, has that been someone that you've seen come through your program that maybe you thought was, “I don't know,” and then on the other end, you're just, “Wow!”? Coach Calhoun I have many, many examples. The reason why, you know, it's so many other — comparatively speaking, a college football program, how many are bringing a guy in, they're saying in Week 1 in June. In fact, I'll back up. Instead of finishing high school in spring semester your senior year, we're going to bring you in in January so you can get going to classes, you can go through spring practices. That way, maybe we have you ready in the fall to be able to play right away. Where here, it's a different approach, you know? No, when you first get here, you're gonna start basic training and you're gonna go through five and a half weeks. We get you one tremendous haircut. No, you're not gonna have your phone or really any interaction with any kind of outside source, whether it's media, whether it's any kind of personal interaction unless you handwrite a letter, you got a pen right there and now exactly where to put the stamp on the top right hand part of the envelope. And so the foundation that you see here, probably specifically to the football part of it, it takes a little longer because there is that basic training prior to the freshman year or four-degree year. There is the first three weeks of June are going through CST or what used to be SERE, you know, prior to the three-degree year. And so football-wise, a lot of times maybe you don't see the real capability of that person until their two-degree year. And so the lessons that you have to share, I think especially with four-degree players is that, hey, it takes time, but you can cite so many examples of guys that didn't play a snap their freshman year, maybe only played in three games their three-degree or sophomore year. And whoa, PJ Ramsey has seen years as a First-Team All-Conference player. But why? You go back, incredibly hard worker, sharp, cared about other people and was incredibly committed to whatever his craft was at that time, whether it was school during the academic time, being a good cadet, or certainly when it came to football during those times, whether it was in the weight room, meeting rooms, just the commitment that way. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, that's a great example. How do you instill in your players the importance of those same standards off the field? Coach Calhoun You know, I think it is more difficult than ever for a teenager, for all human beings. And, you know, the amount of distractions that are present for all of us, you know, there's a lot more items happening on Facebook. There's a lot more media. There's a lot more judgment. To have the discipline to be able to put that aside at times, boy, that can become a strength for you later in life if you do develop that. There are times where you have to turn your phone off. I think the other part is you don't take for granted that everybody understands the values that maybe our team is — each team member is going to be committed to as a part of our program. I think you have to be very clear in terms of what those standards are, how you treat people. We're here to get an education. We're going to be completely committed to help you develop as a football player. But most importantly, when you're done playing football, whether that's at age 19, 22 or 32, we want to put you in a position where you can do tremendous work, whether it's in our Air Force or our Space Force. You can be a really strong contributing member of our community or whatever community in which you live. And to be a quality member of your family, whatever that may be in your personal life too. Naviere Walkewicz So you talked about some of those standards that you expect from the team. Can we shift a little bit to some of your philosophy on leadership that you've developed over the years, right? I'm sure that it's continued to evolve. You mentioned that you're learning all the time. What are some of those things? Coach Calhoun I'll say this. I think you have to be right alongside your people. Goodness, maybe 125 years ago during the Industrial Revolution, everything could be top down and dictated and say you have to be here from 7 to 3, you're working that shift or you have the late night shift from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m. That's not where you're going to get the most out of people and certainly not where they're going to develop the most either. I think you have to know your craft incredibly well. Even the nuances, certainly strategically there has to be a vision, but even tactically, you know, they know if you know your stuff and, again, I just can't say enough about getting to know each individual human being too. Naviere Walkewicz How do you lead your staff so that they carry that same level of care — the cadets and the team members? Coach Calhoun Yeah, awesome question. You know, I think first of all, during the hiring process is making it quite clear in terms of every place has challenges or obstacles. Certainly if you come to the Air Force Academy and you coach football, you're a recruiter for the United States Air Force Academy, the admission standards. We're looking for somebody that's an exceptionally strong student, has a good bit of aptitude leadership-wise. And the other part of it is, yeah, there are some things that are involved here in terms of conduct, in terms of personal choices. And yes, you are going to serve because often, with a good number of the 17-year-olds with whom we interact initially they don't know that. Naviere Walkewicz That's right. So how do you communicate the values and the standards so that it does kind of reach them? Coach Calhoun Well, I think more than anything else, again, I think you have to be as much as you possibly can involved in the inner workings of how the day to day goes. And I don't think you can be distant. I don't think you can say, “Well, it's a little bit of the CEO mindset,” or, “I'll just tell people what to do.” That doesn't work real well in this day and age, especially. People want to know why. They want to know the logic behind a good number of the choices or decisions that we make for our program. I think deep down they appreciate that. I think you tend to get a little more buy-in when that's the case. And the other part, quite frankly, is trying to create an environment — not everybody feels comfortable this way, but where they will bring thoughts and ideas to you, the cadets do. And realizing that's embraced, because they have some pretty unique perspectives or adjustments. I mean, you're forever going to evolve and adapt. And that's a must, I think, in any environment, really in any industry in this day and age too. Naviere Walkewicz I mean, leadership is 360, right? Up, down, sideways. Can you share something that you learned in leadership from a cadet? Coach Calhoun Well, a bunch. I mean, the number of things they bring us. I remember one year we were playing at Army. This was in 2008. And it was a 12 o'clock Eastern kickoff, which is 10 o'clock Mountain. And so we left on Friday. We really didn't get any rest at all on Friday afternoon. And our meetings were a little bit hurried on Friday evening. And a couple of the junior cadets after the season came up and said, “Coach, would there be any way we could maybe leave on Thursday evening after practice, so we had all day Friday to carry forth on a regular schedule like we usually are accustomed to the 24 hours leading up to the game?” I was like, “You're on it. Let me go see what we can get done.” And it did not compromise in terms of more missed classes. They were better rested and they played better as a result. And so I think more than anything else is do everything you can again to make people feel welcome to bring different perspectives, especially when it makes our team better. Naviere Walkewicz Absolutely, that's a great example. Our listeners are always looking for, “I might not be the most seasoned leader. I might not be charge so I don't feel like I have a voice.” It sounds like what you're sharing is good leaders, make it an open field for feedback. Coach Calhoun Absolutely. I think more than ever how important that is. There are so many different viewpoints and perspectives. Like I share with the guys all the time, you know, I try to meet with the seniors frequently and just say, “Don't assume that I know,” you know — if there's not hot water in the showers and we aren't practicing good hygiene, boy, that's going to affect maybe having more viruses. Something that simple, you gotta bring it to me. Naviere Walkewicz That's wonderful so you make that open — that communication is key. Wow, this has been really incredible. Maybe tell some of our listeners, because I think a lot of times people will assume, well, this is what they do, this is all they do. What are some of the things that you enjoy outside of football? Coach Calhoun I think being with your family, trying to soak in as much of an imprint, to be with your own. I have kids. You know, that time and how much you learn from your own son and daughter. I've been beyond fortunate to have an incredible co-pilot with Amanda, just how bright she is, how caring she is, how perceptive, how much she's helped me coach, might not necessarily be X's and O's, but just when it comes to, you know, maybe how people are doing. And then the other part is I think the level of fitness, you know, to be committed that way. Naviere Walkewicz Is physical fitness a part of it? Coach Calhoun It is. trying to create some balance and perspective. You've got to carve out a little time, even in the heat of the season, you know, where that's the case. Naviere Walkewicz How do you do that? Coach Calhoun And well, I think you got to read. That's one way, you know, for many, and it is for us. Is there a spiritual balance there? There is. I think the other part of it is still trying to engage with people, because they bring you so many ideas and thoughts that may not be necessarily that are in our working field, but certainly we can carry over. Is it a new use of a technology? Is it a different way to look at nutrition? Just because of how important that is. And so I love learning. I think there are so many awesome examples that way. We went on a trip for 15 days here in early June, Amanda and I did, and we tried to digest as much World War II, Cold War, Holocaust and Europe. And it was just astounding how much we were able to learn during that journey. Naviere Walkewicz What did you take from that? Coach Calhoun Well, we were in Berlin. We spent two nights there in East Berlin — what was East Berlin. You know, and certainly you could recognize a good number of the buildings that were formerly in old East Germany. You could see some of the influence of the infrastructure and commitment, whether it was to business or facilities on the east side that's been made. That was unbelievable. You know, to go to Nuremberg, to go to Dachau, just how stunning it truly was. To go to Munich and then to come back up through, down into Austria and Switzerland. We ended up in Amsterdam and went through the Anne Frank house. More than ever, you realize how important it is, what we do at the United States Air Force Academy. The commitment to freedoms, to how you interact and treat people, the maturity and the respect, and how I believe even more strongly we need the United States Air Force Academy and the commitment to the values that we have here. And not only in our Air Force and our Space Force, but really to carry that forth into our communities and throughout our society. Navier Walkewicz Oh my goodness. What a trip to reinforce so much of what you live every day. Maybe you can share with us, as a coach, we talk about many successes. That's come with a lot of learning. What have you learned about yourself through the years? Coach Calhoun Well, it's not about you. You know, and I think especially as time passes, if you really want your team to perform at the highest level possible, goodness, it's got to be about the people that are especially at the front line. That's our players that are blocking and tackling; it's our coaches that are providing that individual, you know, individualized instruction. And are we doing everything we can to support them that way? And I think we all do in all of our roles. We know somebody really does have a strong, sincere interest in helping us achieve or to win. You know that. And that's where you want to gravitate towards, because they're going to help you change and transform. Trying to provide that to not only our young men that are a part of our team, but the number of young women that we have that support, whether they're as cadet managers or working and recruiting, it takes everybody. Naviere Walkewicz It really does. I think that's really powerful. It's Interesting when you know that someone believes in you, it's almost like you're capable of more than you ever thought possible. Coach Calhoun So true. I mean, I think we all can cite examples, whether it was a loved one, a family member, a teacher, a coach, somebody that you just knew they believed in you. And that's how you grow. That's how you change. Are there going to be failures and mistakes? Absolutely. Yet as we go through life, we can't be afraid to make a mistake. You know if you're flying an F-16, there are going to be some mishaps and yet hopefully you don't repeat those mistakes because you learn from them and that's how you grow. Naviere Walkewicz Coach, this has been amazing. Sometimes our listeners want to learn something interesting that you would share with us that you haven't shared with others. Is there a hidden talent or something that is unique to Coach Calhoun? Coach Calhoun I don't know if there's a hidden talent. I'll say this: I absolutely love what I do. I've felt that way all along. And yet maybe even more today than ever before. Just because now that you've done it for a few years, there have been a good number of young men. Maybe you were in their home when they were 17 years old and now you see them when they're 28 or 29 and they're flying F-35s or they're your team doctor like Travis Decker is currently, or guys that are working out in the corporate world. And so you see and the kind of fathers or maybe husbands they are that's quite impactful in fact it just tells you we got to go even harder here. So, you know, I think the other part that's so unique about the Air Force Academy too is we have to develop a warrior mindset. You know, and are there times where we are in an office setting? Yeah, there's a different demeanor there that you have to have in terms of the maturity and how you work together. Yet at the same time, we're developing young men and young women that are ready to be right at the tip of that spear too. You know, that's a requisite as part of our work is to prepare them to, if you have to eliminate an enemy or an object, to be in the right frame of mind to do that legally and operate in a way where you're following a candid order. Naviere Walkewicz You didn't share with us a hidden talent but we do know you love what you're doing. No, I'm just teasing. So, is there anything that I — so, two more things. One, I'm gonna ask you if there's anything I didn't ask that you really want to make sure our listeners hear. And then we always like to leave our listeners with like very specific kind of leadership lessons. So I'll just ask you the first one: What haven't I asked you that's on your heart to speak about today? Coach Calhoun Well I I'll say this: I think the other part that's so important for a service member or a cadet is there's somebody else that's been instrumental, whether it was in their upbringing or a co-pilot — I mentioned Amanda earlier — how invaluable they are to the performance of a person. And boy, you just know there's somebody in that — whether it was a parent, mom, dad, maybe a coach. Getting to know them a lot of times helps you too. There's so much insight that a parent provides me so often, even when a cadet is at the Academy. That's why you want to do everything you can. We talked about lines of communication, of trying to create that two-way dialogue. I know a lot — and it happens frequently in college coaching — there are a good number of coaches that say, “Man, those parents are something else.” I'm like, “Nah, I love my parents.” They share a lot with me. That helps me not only coach their son, but helps me develop and grow their young man too. Naviere Walkewicz I love that. Alright, well, I know our listeners are really excited to hear what are going to be those key items you want to share on leadership. But before we get there, I want to be sure that we provide a note of thanks to all of you listening to Long Blue Leadership. Naviere Walkewicz (Long Blue Leadership promotion) This podcast drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on all your favorite podcast apps. Be sure to send us your thoughts and comments at socialmedia@usafa.org and listen to past episodes at longblueleadership.org. Naviere Walkewicz So coach, I want to get back to you because this is all, and I know you said it's not about you, but today it's about you, Coach, and we're really appreciating this. What do you want to leave our listeners with? Because we have leaders of all levels and I think that's the whole point, right? You can be a leader at all levels. But what are some of the best leadership lessons you'd like to share? Coach Calhoun Well, you need to be doing something that you love, that you're passionate about. And the other part is, again, just the involvement that you have with your people. You know, to get in there literally where you're hip to hip and shoulder to shoulder. And I think sometimes whether you're in a leadership role or maybe you have a certain rank, you think, “I can't do that in order to maintain my distance professionally.” And I wholeheartedly disagree. I think you have to be able to operate from different perspectives as a leader. I think clearly you can still articulate and live the standards that are a part of your operation or your unit or your football program. But again, it's about people and that's what makes it go. I heard somebody say once, “If there were only computer chips or ones and zeros, the binary, then maybe we would need these standards or we wouldn't have some of these behavioral challenges,” yet we'd be really, really limited, not only in the growth, but the talent that gets to come to the surface. And it's our job to identify potential attributes and see them sprout, to see them change, and to see them grow. It's the greatest reward there is to help another human being, not only maybe in the future, be it their quality of life or to help them professionally, or maybe with a specific task. And that's what real leadership — that's what real coaching is. Naviere Walkewicz That's outstanding, Coach. Thank you. You've done this a couple times. Coach Calhoun Not like this. Naviere Walkewicz I appreciate you doing this then. Just kind of opening up. Was there anything else that was on your mind though? I didn't want to focus on asking you about the season. I'm sure you get plenty of that. Coach Calhoun No. Goodness, I think we hit the main points. You could talk about leadership — the breadth and the depth of what's involved — you could go on and on and on and on about how important so many things are, but I think we hit the key points, at least from kind of the way I see it. Naviere Walkewicz Alright, I wanted to make sure we were able capture your thoughts on leadership in the way you feel really good about it because I think you're going to have listeners hanging on to every word. Coach Calhoun OK, thank you. If you need anything else, let me know. Naviere Walkewicz Oh, definitely will, Coach. KEYWORDS Troy Calhoun, Air Force Academy, football, leadership, childhood, upbringing, cadet, coaching, challenges, triumphs, strategies, philosophy, success, sports, education, mentorship, resilience, teamwork, discipline, inspiration, resilience, patience, delayed gratification, challenges, growth, success, values, standards, leadership, involvement, support, family, learning, balance, passion, development The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
A conversation with Sam Eckholm '18 about his unique path and work to inspire the next generation of military leaders through social media and content creation.----more---- SUMMARY In this edition of Long Blue Leadership, host Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99, is talking with Sam about his journey from the three times he landed on the “footprints” on in-processing day through the challenges he faced as he learned to lead his peers, side-stepping career advice that might have left him in obscurity, his relentless perseverance pursuing his dreams, graduation in 2018, the history he's making now and Sam's continuing support of the Air Force Academy. SOME OF OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "Putting yourself in other people's shoes is big." "If you have an end goal in mind, it's not going to be easy to get there. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it." "What you see as a finished polished video, the behind the scenes is crazy." "Don't lose sight of that end goal." "Dig deep down and realize what you want. And just relentlessly go after that." SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK | TWITTER | LINKEDIN CHAPTERS 00:00 - Putting Yourself in Other People's Shoes 21:13 - The Terrazzo Gap: Challenges and Perceptions 23:49 - Finding Passion in Clubs and Sports 27:40 - From Photography to Public Affairs 30:05 - Inspired by the F-22 Demo Team 31:00 - Pursuing a Career in Public Affairs 32:24 - Learning and Growing as a Young Lieutenant 33:22 - Challenges and Rewards of Public Affairs 34:22 - Maintaining Motivation and Finding Balance 35:44 - Leading Others and Finding Personal Outlets 38:41 - Transitioning to Entrepreneurship 41:49 - Impactful Moments and Inspiring Others 46:49 - Overcoming Challenges and Pursuing Dreams 53:31 - Supporting the Academy and Creating Impactful Content 56:19 - Final Thoughts and Message to Listeners TAKEAWAYS - Putting yourself in other people's shoes is important for effective leadership - The Terrazzo Gap between intercollegiate athletes and non-athletes at the Academy is a unique challenge - Being involved in clubs and sports at the Academy provides valuable experiences and friendships - Passion for photography and social media can lead to a career in public affairs. - Don't lose sight of your end goal and relentlessly pursue it. - Advocate for yourself and trust in your own decisions. - Creating meaningful impact requires hard work and dedication. - Inspire others by sharing your journey and experiences. - The Academy Blueprint program helps level the playing field for aspiring cadets. - Expand your knowledge and learn from various sources of inspiration. - Don't be discouraged by challenges and setbacks; they can lead to growth and success. ABOUT SAM Deep down, Sam Eckholm always knew the Air Force Academy was where he belonged. As the son of an Air Force pilot and Academy graduate, he was brought up on the blue and silver. After graduating high school in Dallas, Texas, he followed in his dad's footsteps, attending the U.S. Air Force Academy as a member of the class of 2018. Following graduation, Sam was selected as a member of the F-22 Raptor Demonstration team, where he traveled the world as a Public Affairs Officer, documenting the 5th generation stealth fighter jet at air shows across the globe. After separating from active duty in 2022, Sam's passion for military service has not changed, but his ability to share that passion with an even larger audience has. His videos have accumulated over 100 million views online, with over 1 million followers across his social media platforms. Attending the Air Force Academy is what started it all, and Sam's goal is to help others achieve their dreams of throwing their hat in the air and graduating from the Academy. The Air Force Academy Blueprint is the culmination of almost two years of pouring his heart and soul into a singular project, and he can't wait to bring it to you. - Image and copy courtesy of Sam Eckholm CONNECT WITH SAM LINKEDIN | INSTAGRAM | FACEBOOK | TWITTER LINKS WE MENTIONED ACADEMY BLUEPRINT SAM'S YOUTUBE CHANNEL ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates! SAM'S YOUTUBE CHANNEL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS: Guest: Sam Eckholm '18 | Host: t. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Sam Eckholm Putting yourself in other people's shoes is big. It's kind of hard to remember that because you're getting information from your leader, right, your boss, they're telling you one thing, it's hard for them to see kind of two layers down how that's going to impact everyone else. So, I mean, I would always just try to put myself in other people's shoes. Okay, if I do this, what's that gonna… how's that going to make this person feel? Naviere Walkewicz My guest today is Sam Eckholm, USAFA class of 2018 and Air Force captain turned full-time entrepreneur and storyteller, the third in his family's Long Blue Line. Sam is the son of a 1989 graduate and the nephew of a 1993 graduate. All three hail from Cadet Squadron 28, the Blackbirds. We'll talk with Sam about his Dallas roots to the day he stood on the footprints at the Academy. We'll ask him about how he made his way from the wing to the F-22 Raptor demonstration team, then public affairs, out of the Air Force in '23, and now an entrepreneur, content creator and social media influencer. Sam's father and uncle were his main sources of inspiration for becoming a member of the profession of arms. And he has stayed close to the Air Force and the Academy ever since. He leads hopefuls to reach for their dreams and shares his passion for all things Air Force with the world. As we move through the conversation, we'll talk about lessons he's learned in being a leader, and what advice he would give to those aspiring to become leaders and leaders who want to be better. Sam, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Welcome to Long Blue Leadership and thank you for being here today. Sam Eckholm Naviere, it's always great to see you. It's always great to be back at the best school in the world. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, it is. And I mean, I think what's so great about your story, Sam, and what's so unique for our listeners is they feel like they know you because you have such an incredible presence. But today, they're really going to get a chance to understand how you got here. And I think that's what's so fascinating for people. Sam Eckholm Yeah, that means a lot. It's always fun to sit down and kind of talk a little bit more in depth. You know, with the videos I do, I'm trying to focus on highlights and showing some action and keeping the viewer's attention. But this is just kind of laid back. Naviere Walkewicz Let's talk and relive some fun, exciting , you know, stories from the Academy and beyond. Yes, this is about you now. So, you get to be the spotlight and I'm really excited to take everyone on this journey. So, let's roll it back a little bit. We'll start with a journey of Sam as a little boy, you know. I know you shared you kind of grew up in Dallas after third grade. We had a little bit of a chat, but you did some bouncing around before that. Let's hear about your childhood. Sam Eckholm Yeah, so my dad, an '89 grad, like you said went off to pilot training ended up flying KC-135s. So I was actually born at McConnell Air Force Base, right, and so Wichita, Kansas. Fun fact: little full-circle moment for me, I'm gonna' be headed out there in two weeks to do a KC-46 video with the unit there and first time I'll have been back since I was born. So that'll be really fun to see. But yeah, growing up I mean, I don't consider myself an Air Force brat because my dad did separate when I was young, but we bounced around every two years but Dyess McConnell, it was fun. Definitely have some early memories of him and his flight suit walking out on the flight line. And that probably sparked the initial interest in wanting to serve. I think I shoved that to a side for a little bit until I was a bit more mature and could realize what that actually meant. Kind of around the second or third grade, he got out, transitioned to the airline world settled on American Airlines, and moved to Dallas, Texas. And that's really where I call my home. That's where I grew up. And as you know, Dallas is a super not just for Academy athletes and future cadets. It's just seems like a hot hub, right, for a lot of people move there. So, I had a great experience. When it came time to applying to the Academy I knew I was going to have to have my ducks in a line because it's competitive. There's a lot of people trying to get in. But looking back I mean, I've been all over the world now at this point, but Texas always feels like home. Naviere Walkewicz I love that you have your roots. So talk about what you were like as a kid. Were you really active in sports? Where are you — you kind of have the social media side, so, are you really interested in some of the dramatic arts? Like, tell me about what that looked like? Sam Eckholm Yes, sports were always a big part of my family. My dad was actually a basketball player here at the Air Force Academy. My uncle played on the football team as well. So, they were huge athletes. I was always, growing up, I was playing tennis, basketball, golf with my dad, my brothers. I have two other brothers as well. We're all super competitive. Probably, I think what also helped me just realize the Academy was a great school because you know, what other college do you go into where everyone's so competitive and athletic, and sports are built into the curriculum? So yeah, I mean, I would say that was an important part of growing up. My dad especially instilled a lot of values he learned at the Academy in serving. And it's just so cool looking back now, because I didn't realize at the time what those were, and then you go through four years here, you go through five years active duty, and you're like, “OK,” that's why he was the way that he was. When I was actually here at the Academy, I had this mental checklist of stories, he told me, and I will try to like check them off as I also accomplished them. So, you know, his basic training experience, right? Him jumping off the 10-meter board and water survival; him going through survival training and getting some of that experience and jumping out of an airplane. It's really fun for me to experience those as well because those were the stories I had grown up with back home in Texas. Naviere Walkewicz Wow. So, a house of three boys. Where were you in the lineup? Sam Eckholm I was a middle child. Naviere Walkewicz And so did your other brothers want to go to the Academy as well or that wasn't... Sam Eckholm So my older brother Ben, he originally was interested. In fact, you know, he's only a year and a half older. So, we were only one grade apart. And I remember he went to one of those service academy, congressional just learn more about it, right. And he went with a couple of his buddies, and I think they turned him off from it, because they came back and said, “Oh, I ain't doing that. We're going to Texas A&M. We're gonna' have fun.” But I remember he came back and had this pamphlet he got from it. And I stole it from his bedroom. And then I started looking at it. And I was like, “OK, if he's not going to do that, I think this is something I want to do.” And we can talk more about that, obviously, but my brother did end up going a different route. He went to Texas A&M, not in the core there, just kind of a normal student. Little brother, he's like seven years younger than me. He was always interested in the academies, but you know, as he grew up, I think he navigated a little bit more towards another route as well. So, to answer your question, I was the only one who ended up going into an academy and serving, but they're still incredibly close to me. And I actually have this hilarious photo of my older brother. He came to visit during Parents Weekend. I was like a junior. And during Parents Weekend here at the Academy, my family would actually like stay at the Academy because all the other kids and their parents would go to Boulder, go to Garden of the Gods or the Broadmoor, whatever. And so, the Academy was completely empty. And so, it was kind of like this country club for my family. So, like, we would go down... And then you got like the golf course to yourself. You got these beautiful greens… Naviere Walkewicz I could see you've got your stretch view… Sam Eckholm Right, exactly. So, we would go down to like the athletic facilities and play tennis and just hang out and have fun. Anyway, there's this funny photo of my older brother. I gave him my PT uniform, the ringer tee and the shorts. And he like blended in as a cadet for the weekend. And it was really funny one day because retreat played and he was saluting. I'm like, “Well, they're gonna' think you're a cadet.” So, everyone's super close to me and the Academy, and they loved coming to visit. And I think in an alternate world, they would have all tried to come here too. But yeah, very close with the family. Naviere Walkewicz That is outstanding. We love, hearing about the dynamics of kind of what your support network was like, what those influences were like in your life. You mentioned something about your dad sharing stories. What were those initial nuggets? I know you talked about the experiences they had, but what was he instilling with you and your brothers at that time when you were in those impressionable years? Sam Eckholm Well, my dad is just one of the most like regimented individuals I know. He's very, very focused, you know. And now looking back, I think I just attribute so much from the Academy, and especially back in the '80s, you know, the way things were run and like how he did it, but you don't know that when you're a kid, right? Like, I heard the stories of the Academy. And I don't know, I think when I was young, I didn't think they were cool. And then as you get a little older, they are kind of cool, but you don't want to tell him they're cool, kind of like shove that in the back of your head. And then now I'm like, “Wow, that was really, really cool.” So yeah, I remember there was this photo we had in our house. I don't know if it was above our piano are just on some dresser and it was him in pilot training and his flight suit standing next to T-38. And I thought that was the coolest thing growing up. I mean, he looked like Tom Cruise from Top Gun. And so I literally to go to my room, I would walk past that every single day. And that photo is just like, I don't know, it's cemented in my mind of, “Wow, that was so cool.” And, you know, at the time, I did think “Hey, I'm going to be a pilot. I'm going to do this,” and learned obviously down the road there's so many opportunities to serve in the Air Force. But yeah, I mean, it was just such a cool thing to be able to say, “My dad went to the Academy. My dad's a pilot,” you know? Other people's parents, whatever they did, you know, still interesting. But to be able to say that was always so cool. I just wanted to be able to experience that, wanted to be able to do something different from my friends in high school, being able to have my dad actually, which I know a lot of applicants don't have someone who served in the Army. I'm trying to change that with the work I do to make everyone feel like they understand what they're getting into. But that was huge for me. And it was fun. I still remember I would text him through every milestone we had at the Academy, whether it was Recognition or Ring Dance or commitment. And he would kind of share where he was back then or a photo he had. And yeah, it was cool. Naviere Walkewicz That's really beautiful. And, and it makes me think about how we capture now, and I think this might have been, this was happening during your class as well, but we had WebGuy, the WebGuy team actually capturing moments. And so, it's probably neat that he actually sees some of those while you're texting him. And those you know, those listening, the texting ability is not something we had back in the day when I was there. We just had the red phone booth to try to get your like five minutes to call. Sam Eckholm I can't imagine that. Naviere Walkewicz Yeah, it's wonderful. I think we preserve so much of the experience for our cadets. Sam Eckholm Yeah, there's still a bit now where the family almost gets to feel a little bit of that assurance with us. Why are they still writing like letters home? Pen to paper. Yeah, and you know, stamp. And yeah, WebGuy, I think was my mom's like, saving grace during basic as many moms out there. Yeah, shout out, Mom. I know you liked WebGuy. I always tried to smile when I saw a camera. So, she knew I was I could see how I was doing even though I sometimes was not that I was like, yeah. Naviere Walkewicz So let's talk about life at the Academy. So, you were direct entry. Were you an intercollegiate recruit or just kind of in and started? Sam Eckholm No, yeah, I was direct entry. I was very, very fortunate to get the principal nomination from my congressman who did that method out of Dallas. It was an incredibly competitive area. I mean, there were like 60 kids just from my area trying to get in and oh man, I was so stressed going in because I knew how bad I wanted it. I knew I looked great on paper. But the problem was 60 other kids also look really good on paper. So, the interviewer really helped me out there. I was able to talk about family experiences got the principal nomination, so I knew I was going to have my shot. So yeah, direct entry got here. And it's kind of funny because having a dad and uncle who went here, I thought I knew everything right? I had probably watched every single video and read every article, looked at everything on the Academy, I was obsessed. The second I got here, day one or Day Zero as they call it, like the bus ride here. Naviere Walkewicz Tell me about your experience on the bus. Sam Eckholm Oh, man, this is a lot different. Well, the bus is, I mean, I knew what was coming. I'd seen every single video, but it hits you different when you're there and they're screaming in your face. The footprints was really rough for me. I've told this story before, because then — I don't know what they do now — but they broke it up by your basic flights and your squadron. So, Cobras is what I was in. And so, all my future flight members were with me and we're on the footprints. And an upperclassman is — [there's a] crazy photo; I can send it to you guys — but just someone screaming at me, right? And I don't know what happened. But I think they lost track of me. So [I'm on the] footprints when the rest of my squadron was sent up the ramp to begin their in-processing, I got sent to the back of the footprints line to kind of do it again. Naviere Walkewicz Really? Sam Eckholm Yeah. And so, they did that for a few cadets. So, I got sent to do it again. And the crazy part is I went through that, I got sent a third time. But, and this is like the whole footprint spiel again. The whole “Get on attention.” So, I had like triple the footprints experience and then for the rest of the day because my squadron had already in process, I was so far behind. It was now like, “Are you lost, basic!” Like, I was that guy the whole time in the morning. So, it's just when I finally got there, at the end of the day, like to my squadron, I was already known and had the reputation, like the lost basic. You know it was for next six weeks, which turned into the next year, I was trying to get rid of that reputation that I was the lost basic, but hopefully now I've gotten rid of that. Naviere Walkewicz All right. We'll leave that one alone. That's a fantastic story. Yeah. Wow. All right. So, let's talk about your life at the Academy. I know where you graduate from Squadron 28, legacy squadron, right? Let's talk about some of your experiences, both from the cadet perspective — athletics, academics, wherever you'd like to take us — but also let's weave in a little bit of some lessons you've learned about yourself during that time in leadership. Sam Eckholm Yeah, I started out in CES-14 Baby Cobra. I don't know, I think what they're now doing like one and then three years. One and three. Yeah. I always knew that's what I wanted to do. Because like, literally, even when I was growing up, my dad had his A-jacket, and I saw the Blackbirds patch. And that was really cool. But yeah, I mean, my first two years were definitely different from my last two years, I always tell people, the first two years, I was discovering who I was both as a person but as a cadet, right? Like, you come in thinking you're going to do something and have a path and major in this and do this when you graduate. But it was so much information coming at me of here's what you can do, here are all the opportunities. And that's one thing, I'm really proud of myself for that — I didn't feel like I had to follow a certain path. You know, when I came in, I thought I was gonna' fly, I was gonna' be an engineer, I'm gonna' do this. And that's amazing for all the cadets who want to do that and are excited about it. But I knew I was excited about other stuff, too. You know, you mentioned kind of social media photography, that sort of stuff. I had that kind of in the back of my head, I just had to figure out a way how to make that work in the Air Force, right? Because I had no idea when I came in that was something you could kind of do. So the first two years were a lot of discovery, right? I did not, and this was kind of strategically, do any clubs or anything the first two years. I kind of regret that looking back, but I thought I just needed to be in the squadron with my flight. Versus now, I always encourage people at the Academy take advantage of the clubs, take advantage of the extracurricular stuff, because, I mean, you've formed so many friendships there. Naviere Walkewicz I don't know if you agree, because you did a lot, right? And I definitely agree, I was not a recruited athlete. And so, I think I explored a lot of different lanes. But you know, one of the things that when you were talking, I was thinking about this, because when people see you and hear you now, you just have so much confidence. Did you always have that? Or is there a time when maybe that was not the case as a cadet? Sam Eckholm Yeah, in high school, you know how it goes, right, you're at the top of the top in high school, especially someone going into the Academy. To go to the Academy., most students are presidents of their classes, or whatever. And so, you go from the top, and then you're dropped very quickly and humbled when you get to the Academy. So, I think I definitely lost a little bit of that. But then I built it back up. And I think that's kind of the goal of the Academy, right? They're trying to build back up leaders; you start as a follower. So, by the time I left, we can get to that, I was a squadron commander of CES-28. And that is, to this day, one of the most rewarding experiences. I learned the most about myself and talk about confidence. Getting up there every morning, talking to over 100 of your peers as their quote-unquote, cadet leader. I mean, that right there to this day, I'm like, if I can do that, and be able to tell other students my age, what they have to be doing, I can do anything. Naviere Walkewicz Peer leadership is definitely a challenging type of leadership. What did you learn about yourself in that? Can you share a story where you're like, well, am I really cut out for this? Sam Eckholm Well, it's hard because you have all different types of cadets, all different types of classes. Everyone has their thing that interests them. And let's be real, I mean, you're up here, right? You're not in the real Air Force, yet. You've been appointed this position. And so, some cadets are like, OK, come on. I mean, literally, two weeks ago, he was just, you know, Sam, and now he's like, oh, cadet first class at home squadron commander, cadet lieutenant colonel. So, with the younger classes, it's easier, because the rank structure, they kind of understand, but to your senior class, it's your peers. So, my mentality for that is that I was just going to try to be someone that everyone could relate to, that had everyone's best interest in mind. So, I would take so long for any decision or working with my AOC, just trying to advocate for what everyone wanted. I didn't see myself as higher, better, above anyone. It was just, I'm going to be the spokesperson for everyone. And I'm gonna' work as hard as I can to make sure everyone's happy. And I think there's a lot of lessons you can take from that approach. Of course, not every leadership position, you have the ability to do that. But at the Academy, I don't know, I think that was just a really cool opportunity to kind of explore and find out how that works. And I learned a lot from that. And because I've had opportunities to lead in my Air Force career and beyond, I still pull from those experiences. I'm like, “Well, this would maybe work here.” But yeah, I don't know. Did you have any opportunities to do the leadership stuff, the higher level here? It's so unique, there's nothing else like that. Naviere Walkewicz No, it really is unique. And I think one of the things that, when our listeners are always looking for are those little nuggets. So you learn so much, you know. What is one takeaway from a pure leadership perspective that you could say, “I've leaned back into multiple times?” What would that be? Putting yourself in other people's shoes is big. Sam Eckholm It's kind of hard to remember that because you're getting information in from your leader, usually from your leader, right, your boss, they're telling you one thing, it's hard for them to see two layers down how that's going to impact everyone else. So I would always just try to put myself in other people's shoes. “OK, if I do this, how's that going to make this person feel?” But the other thing is you can never make everyone happy. And I had to come to grips with that. And that's hard for me because I'm the type of person — it like messes me up if I know someone's mad at me or upset or doesn't think I'm doing the right thing. But you learn real quickly, you grow up really quickly and realize that if 90% is good, I mean, that might even be because that might be the best 99 whatever number you want. 15 a year and I'm like, well, this is working. You can't make everyone happy. And I still struggle with that, because you want everyone to be happy, especially with what I'm doing now on social media, when there's millions of people watching what I'm doing, and you look at comments, and you're kinda' like, “Man, I tried so hard on this, and I could have done it differently.” But then if you change it for one person, and someone else isn't gonna' be happy… so thick skin, that's the biggest thing I had to realize I wouldn't be where I am today if I let that bother me. And I remind myself that that's better to be where I am today and have thick skin then be hiding in the corner because I was scared. I couldn't make everyone happy. Naviere Walkewicz So that is a great lesson. Thank you for sharing that. So, the Academy was great. You had some wonderful leadership experiences. Can you share maybe one of your favorite things about the Academy while you were a cadet? Sam Eckholm Yeah, well, you asked about clubs. Oh, and I mentioned I didn't do anything really the first two years, which is true. That completely changed. When I switched squadrons, I got super involved, still within the squadron, but also within the Academy. I was on the mock trial team. That was so fun. Gave me an opportunity to travel on the weekends. I ended up being a legal studies major because of that and really enjoyed just everything that came from that. You know, I love talking. I don't know if you knew that I love speaking and talking with other people, communicating. And in mock trial and legal studies, our exams were literally us standing at a podium delivering a fake appellate speech or like you're talking to a judge and that was really cool. And then being able to compete and travel by talking and being a lawyer was fun. And then I also had the opportunity to be on the women's basketball practice team, the scout team. So I was a basketball player in high school, not at the level they play at the Academy. But I was like, “Well, how can I continue doing this?” And so someone, one of my classmates, is like, well, the women's team they look for former high school players to come into rugby, the scout team, run their upcoming opponents' defensive and offensive plays against them. And I tried out for that and made it and that was such a blast. I never knew we do that. And I had a schedule. I was able to go down there — we got the merch, the swag bag. It was fun. So, I tell everyone I was on the women's basketball team. Some kind of laugh, but it was the most amazing opportunity I had. And there's so many things like that at the Academy. By the time I was a firstie — people ask if I had any experience with photography, video, social media while here. One answer I say is “I started the CS 28 Blackbirds Instagram account,” which is still running strong, right? But then I actually worked with my then-physics instructor to start a photography class for the Academy. So as part of the Fine Arts Department, is the first time it was ran. And it was an elective I was able to sign up for when I was a first-year. And yeah, I mean, we literally had like 30 cadets take this course and raised enough money that we were able to get everyone a camera. Our professor, Col. Maddox at the time, she's still in, but she was amazing. She taught us and instructed us because she had her own business doing wedding photography and stuff like that. And that was so cool. I remember going to class, it felt like I was at a normal school. I was taking a photography class. And so that was when I was graduating going into public affairs, as my career, realized that I'm going to keep this up. And it was just cool to be able to do something like that, that you don't think the Academy has. We've got some cool classes that you might not expect. Naviere Walkewicz No, that's wonderful. And I think our listeners are really excited to hear that too. And before we go on to your career in the Air Force and that transition, I wanted to go back to a little bit about the intercollegiate experience because I think you have a really unique perspective, right? You are not a recruited athlete, but you experienced really diving into the Academy from that aspect. And then you got to have the schedule and understand the rigors of what our intercollegiate athletes experience and you will hear this term: “Teezo Gap.” What's your perspective on that? You know, for people that are just listening, I think that's a fascinating topic that we haven't really explored. Sam Eckholm Yeah, was a cadet for the first two years not being an intercollegiate athlete, the Teezo Gap, as you mentioned, it's a completely different perspective. And I'll be honest, sometimes you buy into it, you're like, I mean, these athletes are having an easier — they get to go do this and travel and wear civilian clothes as freshmen with their team, you know, miss all the mandatory squadron events and the training sessions and so I'll be honest, you do have some of that perception. Now flashing forward, that completely changed when I got a taste of it. And this was a small taste of it. I mean, I was a scout team player. And it wasn't every day, I had to go down half the week because we had two different teams that did it. But even then, I can't imagine what they have to go through. Because you go down there, your schedule is modified to where you don't have afternoon classes. So, after lunch, you're kind of going down there. And then it is practice meetings, dinner, sometimes meetings again, and then homework, and then rinse and repeat. And at the same time, sure, maybe they're missing some squadron stuff, but you know what, they're not missing anything academically, that's the same. So I have so much appreciation for all of the intercollegiate athletes at the Academy and experiencing that gave me more of an appreciation. And I just, again, it's something you can't fully appreciate until you have done it yourself. But for those students that can be so successful on the field and then still graduate from this. I mean, I know I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. So, to answer your question, it is something that I think people who aren't aware, or who are listening and you know, might have that perception that it exists. I think we need to work to change that a little bit. Because these people are incredible. Naviere Walkewicz And again, it's just I mean, you can probably share more. So, you went through that. Like, it's fascinating. I really appreciate you sharing that. Yeah. I think that's a wonderful thing for people to hear. You know, some of the perceptions versus realities. So, let's talk about when you were in the military. So, you graduated the Academy, what AFSC did you get? Yeah, so public affairs? Sam Eckholm Yes. 35P1. When I was a firstie, I kind of knew I was going to not do the pilot thing. Multiple reasons. People asked me why. Couple: I wasn't even fully medically qualified at the time. I had some color vision stuff. Probably could have gotten a waiver for that eventually. But you know, there was a long process. So that's where I first started to think, “Hey, maybe there's something else I can do, too. I just loved being on the ground talking to people, there was more I wanted to do than just fly. And so, I was trying to find a career field that allowed me to still be around aircraft, still be bebop and buzzing around and doing my thing but also having an impact. So, after my sophomore year, when we went on ops Air Force, I went to Travis Air Force Base and part of that trip, I got to shadow the public affairs career field. And while I was there, I still remember the feeling of like walking through the doors at the PA building, which was right by the wing staff,. They had like a full suite of Apple MacBook computers, airmen on Lightroom and Photoshop and editing videos. The San Francisco 49ers were in town to do a base visit and PA was out there escorting them. I got to interview the commander who was about to PCS and write a story on him. This was all in the span of like three days. And I was like, “What other career field is there where you can do all of this?” It's like kind of a jack-of-all-trades job. And so that visit, I was like, “Wow, this is really, really cool. I want to do this!” Now the next part was like, “Well, how do I do this?” So, I came to find out there was only five slots. Since I've graduated, I've heard some years they have had no slots, some years a couple slots. So, I don't really know how it works anymore. But I would go up to Harmon Hall, literally every day the first semester of my first year, second of my two-degree year, and I would just talk with, then at the time Lt. Col. Allen Herritage, who is the PA director. Now it'd be like, “Sir, how can I learn more about this job?” I was like, “How can you help me? How can you help me get this?” It's all about connections. And regardless of whether or not that actually did help, I know two things are true. I went up there every day and I talked. And then I also got public affairs. So, I just, I worked really hard, though. I mean, I worked so hard in school, and I had a good class ranking. And that definitely helped me and just networking as much as I could to let a FPC know that this is something that I want. So yeah, I dropped public affairs. I was so excited. I remember our squadron put on this awesome AFSC drop release with Nerf guns and blindfold maze stuff. And when I saw that, I was like, “This is gonna' be fun five years, or longer.” Yeah, I didn't know looking back. I mean, you know, we can get into that too. But it's a career field that is fun for life and I'm so glad I got it. Naviere Walkewicz Wonderful. So let's talk about that. And let's talk about that career field and some of your experiences both from the experience perspective, but maybe where there was some leadership lessons you took as a public affairs officer. Sam Eckholm Yeah, well, I was kind of thrust right into it. So, I got stationed at Langley Air Force Base. I was, I think the only one from my class, maybe one other who even got sent there. So, it's not like pilot training or a lot. You know, if you got your buddies, it's kind of like a little reunion and you run it back for the next couple years. I was off on my own, so to learn quickly what life was like, to be just Sam as an officer, as a lieutenant, it's like the first week when I was out there we were doing unit PT with my PA shop, running around the base track, which those who have been to Langley, it's a beautiful ride on the coast on the running ground. It's amazing running the flightline. And out of nowhere an F-22 took off just full-burner. But it wasn't a normal takeoff. It started doing maneuvers and rolls and just putting on this spectacle of a show. I mean, my ears were like, “Oh my gosh,” and I turned to my boss at the time. I was like, “What is going on right now?” She's like, “Oh, Sam, that's the F-22 demo team. They travel the air shows around the world just like the Thunderbirds, and they put on shows and help recruit and they actually take one PA person from our office to travel with them each year.” It was at that second I knew that's what I want to do. That right there, is what I want to do. And flash forward a few months, the opening came up. I was completely inexperienced at the time, but I pitched myself and sold myself and the commander at the time, Lt. Col. “Loco” Lopez, who's now out in Hawaii, is the squadron commander for the F-22 unit. And he's been a big inspiration to me. I interviewed with him and I was showing him a YouTube channel. “Look, I can edit, see, like, I can take photos, look at my Instagram.” And he hired me in for the next two years. And every year I was like, “What is real life?” I mean, we were at shows all over the world. I went to Dubai, Singapore, Chile, Hawaii, I mean, Alaska, pretty much every base here in the U.S. got to meet my classmates who were stationed there, got to run all the social media, do all the videos for the team, the coolest jet in the world. It's the F-22 — blew up their social media, just made it my goal to do what I called “no life.” Literally, for two years it's all I did was live, breathe F-22 demo team, and just really wanted to give it my all. And that was so fun. Now to go back to the leadership side of things: Imagine being a butter bar, a second lieutenant now thrust on a team, which has national-media-level attention. I remember I was at a show in Chicago andI just got called in to do an interview because our pilot wasn't available. And I'm literally in front of thousands and thousands of people having to just talk about the Air Force mission and these high-level questions that I was like,”Oh my gosh,” so back to your question of being confident. Like, that's probably where it came from. I just had to learn and had to fake it ‘till I made it. But what a fun experience for a young lieutenant and just something I'll never forget. Naviere Walkewicz Wow. Well, I think something I took from what you said as well as you identify very quickly, when there's something that you really want to do and you make a path to get there. And I think in your relentless pursuit, in a way that is really convincing. And I think that's a lesson right? You have to put in the work, you obviously can't just only be talk, you have to be able to show like, you can put some cred behind it. And I think that's a lesson where you're able to share with folks, “Hey, if you're really interested in something, go all in for it.” And to your point, “and then live it.” Yeah, do that. soak it all in. So I think that's really inspirational. Were there any tough times you had as a public affairs officer? Sam Eckholm Tons. PA, it's not always the good side of things, too, right? We really exist for the most part for the crisis communication, right? When something bad happens, to communicate that as well. And so, it doesn't matter if it's the highs or the lows, you still gotta' get out there and talk to people and make things happen. So, luckily, when I was on the team, you know, we didn't have anything catastrophic, any mishaps like that, but I know people who have right I mean, [I've] had mentors, PA world or former Thunderbird PAs when they've had crashes and there's a lot that goes on there. So, we always have to be prepared for that. And even though I didn't have to necessarily be thrust in that environment, that's still on your mind, you just have to be prepared. Now, the other thing was just tough with being in this lifestyle for two years is that when you're constantly gone, so we are TDY I mean, like, literally 300 days a year. And so, it's hard to continue to have the same motivation every single day when it's just the same show, monotonous, like doing everything day in and day out. And I think that's a lesson anyone can learn in the Air Force or beyond, you know, because a lot of the times it, it is repetitive. So, I would always look for ways to make it not repetitive. And for me if we're going to a different show, as a photographer, videographer making content, I would always try to do something different. I would always try to focus in on a different element of the story. So instead of just focusing on the pilot in the jet every time, I would tell behind-the-scenes stories of our maintainers, of our aircrew flight equipment specialists, of the fans who came and traveled across the country to watch and, doing tours with them and I would arrange a ton of school visits and talk to Civil Air Patrol units in JROTC and really just focus on the community relations and the recruiting side of things. And there's a lot I had to work with and that was really fun for me to mix and match and that was the way I just stayed motivated and still had fun with it. And even to this day, I'm always trying to one-up the last thing I did and branch out and evolve and just make everything interesting. And I think the viewers kind of understand that and appreciate it. And that's always my goal is for no one to ever click on a video of mine or see what I'm doing and be like, “Oh, that's kind of the same thing.” I want it to always be exciting. Naviere Walkewicz I can absolutely appreciate that. And it seems like that kind of pace is, I mean, how do you maintain that? So maybe my question would be for you, Sam, what is your outlet? Because if you live, breathe as a leader, right, if you you expect a lot from your people, and you always want the best and you want something new, how do you maintain that level of give? And so, what's your outlet? Sam Eckholm Yeah, well, kind of the first part of what you asked, I also had to realize that just because I'm this way doesn't mean everyone's this way, right? So, if you're a leader, and you are 100% committed and want it to be your entire life, that doesn't mean everyone's going to be that way. And I had to realize that because at times that can be frustrating, if you're leading a team and you're gung-ho about it, but like, OK, maybe they aren't, well, that's OK, you know, you need to, again, put yourself in their shoes and see what motivates them. And I learned that lesson as well, even back to when I was a squadron commander, I'd pitch an idea and I was so excited. And I can tell him that everyone's [not] gonna' be as excited as you, Sam. But yeah, my outlet, I mean, a lot of different stuff at the time, you know, I was just so excited about doing what I was doing. So as weird as it sounds, my outlet was my work. And that's something not everyone understands. But I actually felt depressed if I wasn't continuing to work, because I knew there was a time limit on how long I would have this opportunity. So, I was like, “Well, I'm going to keep working hard now.” And as I've moved on, I have found a healthy balance between work and other things. So, you know, friendships are incredibly important, especially other people in the space with what I'm doing, being able to talk with them and how they are handling stress levels. Because not everyone can relate especially to what I was doing and am doing. So other people in the space, in the industry, we're all dealing with the same things. So that's something I tell people all the time is, “Other people who are in your world — those are some awesome friendships you can have, because they understand what you're going through. Not everyone does.” That's a classic example of when people talk about the Academy, you go home on a winter break, none of your friends understand what you're going through. It's really, really hard, you know? Who does? Your classmates at the Academy. You go through that with them. And so that has been a huge thing for me: other people who have gone through what I have, like, we're in it together. And those are some times when I really feel like I can sit back, relax, and the stress is taken off. Naviere Walkewicz Now that's really helpful. And I think I did chuckle in my head a little bit when you said, you know, “Actually, my outlet is my work.” But I think when you're doing your thing that you're wired to do and your passion, that makes sense. Sam Eckholm Yeah, it's both fulfilling and exhausting. I mean, I love to travel to like, I do normal things as well. But in some way, even then I battled the whole, like, well, what can I be doing, especially when you're a full-time, have your own company entrepreneur. That was a huge adjustment for me. Because it's not like you have a salary job where there is some end at some point to kind of go home. It's like, well, you could always be doing more, right? You could always be working. And I've had to struggle with that sometimes, because it's like, I could keep working, keep working. So that's something I've learned and doing better at still to this day. But yeah, it's interesting. Naviere Walkewicz So, let's talk about that transition. You know, you knew there was a time period on that F-22 demo team, and the PA role. But when did, you know, “I think I'm going to be moving out of this into my own kind of work.” Sam Eckholm Yeah, so once I finished the F-22 team, I had to move on with my career. They don't let you do something in the Air Force forever, totally understood that. But I wasn't done personally inspiring, making content. I had developed kind of a following along the way of people who were just interested in what I was doing. So, I would kind of take my free time. I always made it my goal — I was like, I'm going to stay focused on the PA job. I never want anyone to be able to look at lieutenant at home and be like, “He's not locked in on this PA job. He's not focused. He's interested in these other things.” So, I would make that my goal. But my free time, my leave, my time on the weekends, instead of normal hobbies people do, I would make videos. That was my thing. And so, my next assignment, I went to Scott Air Force Base, I was 375 Air Mobility Wing, and that was a demanding and fun job. And I kind of still had this thing going on the side. It got up to the point where it's at the end of my Academy commitment, and I had a tough decision to make, right? I loved being in the Air Force. I was a captain at the time. I was excited. But as you rank up, you get more responsibilities, understandably, and I knew that I did not want to let that lack if I was going to stay in the Air Force. I did not want my airmen — I did not want people to think I was distracted doing something else. But I loved this other thing as well. So really, what I had to decide is, “Where am I having the biggest impact in the Air Force?” And as weird as it sounds, right, because you think of serving — most of the time people think like, in uniform active duty. Well, I think of service in many different ways, right. And I actually felt, and I know this is true, that I could serve the Air Force, the military, our country, better on the outside, continuing to inspire people by doing these videos, making this content, showing people what life was like, inspiring all these kids on the outside, being able to go at that with 100% of my time. And luckily, that wasn't just a personal decision I made. I was having conversation with like, the highest levels of leaders in Air Force recruiting and public affairs explaining this as well. And that's just what I decided I wanted to do. And it was scary. It's very scary going from a job, one that I had worked since I was a freshman in high school to get to in the Air Force, to now kind of giving that up to do this other thing. But we're really helping the viewers, it wasn't giving it up to me, it was just doing it in a different way. I would say I'm still connected now more than I was even when I'm in with what I'm doing. I'm not in uniform, you know, I don't have my CAT card anymore. But I am serving more than I ever thought I would be around the units traveling to bases every single week filming what I'm doing. So that's kind of what helped me make that decision. And it was the right decision. And to this day, the comments I see from kids, the people I've been able to help and resonate with, it's crazy. And it's something that probably wouldn't have been able to happen if I stayed in just with the amount of you know, stuff I would have had to do on the normal job side. Right? Naviere Walkewicz Wow. So, you talked about impact. And that was really important to you. What's one of years or maybe a couple of your most favorite, impactful moments that you've had since moving into the entrepreneurial side of things? Sam Eckholm Yeah, I mean, it's hard sometimes when you're like a video creator, because what you see is numbers on a screen, right? You see views, you see comments, which can be really inspiring too. But sometimes, you know, you miss the in-person interactions because you're traveling and it's the videos people see. But I always, even to this day, a couple times a year, I do like in-person events, I just went out to an airshow and was in San Antonio and I did a couple of these previous years. And it's a different feeling when you're out there. And there's tens, dozens of people, who are like literally waiting in line just to say hi, to take a photo to tell me that like, hey, these videos are the reason they want to join or have joined or have inspired them. It's crazy. And that to me keeps me going. And that was so, so impactful. And you know, I have a folder on my computer. On my phone I have like screenshots of all the messages I've gotten, because when I'm having a hard day or when I'm like, “Man, this is tough,” I can look back at those and be like, “Well, this is why it's all worth it. And this is why I do the things that I do.” And yeah, it's cool being a creator who's not just in it for themselves. And I try to tell people that really what I'm doing is to inspire other people. It's tough. It probably looks really cool when you see all the things I'm doing. And that is fun. But it is a lot. But I know the impact that's possible. I remember when I was a freshman in high school looking for content online, and there wasn't too much of it. And I wanted to change that. And I know Naviere, we've worked so much together and you've seen the stuff I've done and you know how much it means to me. So just being able to see and hear from people, it means everything. Naviere Walkewicz Yeah, so what's your, is there a story, a video that you've done that just, it just kind of sits right into your heart like this one is just so special? I mean, we probably have so many, but is there one that you just feel has really resonated with, you know, youth or just that level of impact? Is there one you can speak to? Sam Eckholm Yeah, well, I'll give, I'll give kind of two. So, one that is incredibly special to me in a personal way. I actually got to go back and do a video on the KC-135 and I brought my dad out there for that. Yeah, that was something I always wanted to do. And he's great. I was a little nervous. I was like, “How is he going to be on camera?” But he knocked it out of the park to the point where some comments were like, “He needs to come to every video like that. You need to take over the channel at this point. Everyone loves you so much.” But it was so fun. I mean, he studied for weeks on the facts of the aircraft. He was an instructor for the instructors at the schoolhouse. It took him a few minutes, but literally after half an hour, he knew his way around that aircraft so well and was teaching the current pilots out there some things that they didn't know. Anyway, so I look back — that video is like a full-circle moment for me. And that resonated with a lot of people too, who just enjoyed seeing my inspiration and have some people who look at me as their inspiration. Like it's just really, really cool to see outside of that. I mean, I would say a really personal project of mine was when I actually got to come out here to the Academy and do a complete tour of the grounds and the campus and facilities. With the audience I've been able to build, a lot of people know me as an Academy grad. And so they reached out asking me questions about the Air Force Academy. “What it's like to apply?” How they can get in. And it's hard to answer all of those questions because that's all I'd be doing if I did it. So, I was like, “Well, what's a way I can put this message out to everyone?” And so, you know, I worked with your team, worked with the Academy team, and we came out here for a week and filmed what I think is the most beautiful school ever. And I just wanted to show that and that video to this day is, I don't know, 1.2-something million views. And you go scroll through those comments, the amount of people who didn't know it exists — which probably sounds crazy to us, right? — that now know and can see all of these cool things you would have access to and can do if you're cadet, I mean, I think that video is going to have returns and just inspire people for years to come. That was such a big project I wanted to do to get back to my school and to show other people, “This school did this for me. You guys need to understand what it can do for you, too.” So, I'm really proud of that one. I have a lot of people reaching out to me about that still to this day. Every single week, you know, “Hey, Sam, I want to go here. I watched this video. How can I do it?” And I'm like, “Alright, well, let's talk. Here's what you need to start doing. You need to do this.” Naviere Walkewicz I love that. So, it's really unique, your journey, right? Because you have been a leader of peers, of people, of airmen, etc. You've also been, I think, a leader of yourself, and you know, in part of how you navigate that. One of the ways I think our listeners really feel connected with our guests is, you know, life is pretty imperfect. What are some challenges you've experienced along the way in your life, just in your professional and personal life, that you have has felt as evolved you as an influencer as a leader, as someone who inspires you to share any with a group that makes them feel like, okay, Sam, I'm in? You know, I'm kind of like, Sam, you know, in some way, what would that be? Sam Eckholm Yeah, I mean, like I said, it's one of the things I sometimes struggle with when you have an online presence is you kind of gravitate towards only showing the highlights. And that's just how the business works, right? I mean, I don't want to be putting out negative content all day. But then, you know, you're right. I mean, some people kind of see like, “Oh, everything seems to be going well.” I mean, that's not the case. Absolutely not, especially with what I was doing. There's a reason it's very hard to get into this space, especially being in the Air Force. I made some decisions that some might have said would hurt my career, right? Even going back to the demo team, that was a job that typically you don't do as a lieutenant, right. And I was told, “Hey, this might hurt your career going forward.” But I also knew that this was something I wanted to do. And I had goals in mind. And I was young and I just hated the idea that a decision I made when I was 23 years old would ruin my career. I was like, “There's no way that can be true. I'm so young, I've got so much opportunity.” And so, I'm glad I kind of listened to myself. And that was a big decision. But even along the way, making videos while being in the Air Force, I was writing the rules, because there weren't regulations for what you can and can't do. And I was having a lot of tough conversations with people. I'm like, “I'm trying to do the right thing here. You guys gotta help me, I see a lot of potential in this.” So that kind of lesson can be applied to, I think, anyone. A lot of people, I feel, want to do certain things or have dreams and goals. And neither one get talked out of it. To talk themselves out of it. Three, you just look at the negatives, and it gets in your head. And it makes it hard for people to kind of pull the trigger and do it. And I completely understand that. “Comfortable rut” — I kind of use that phrase — you get comfortable in thing and it's hard to break away from that. And so, I don't know, for me, that's the biggest advice I give people: If you have an end goal in mind, it's not going to be easy to get there. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it, right? I mean, especially being an entrepreneur. It's hard, it's a gamble, it's a risk. And you've got to prepare yourself. I never say, “Hey, just go take this without any plan or backup plan.” And I always had that in place. But you know, I guess I kind of am a risk taker in some world. And I know I have good intentions at heart. And I know what I'm trying to do. And I think that was really important is just having the backup plans, having a good background, having things set in place to where I'm able to do this and — I don't know, coming across as a good person has been huge. So, people hopefully watch my stuff and, like, “Sam's good. He's doing the right thing.” Naviere Walkewicz So, I don't know, it's hard. If you have any specific advice on that, because you've done so much. But when people look at your stuff, hopefully you can kind of resonate and don't think it's all good all the time. But I think you'll come across as very approachable. I think it's lovely for them to hear in your own words some of the struggles that you have when you're thinking about your content when you're thinking about the delivery of it. They maybe don't get that glimpse, right? They just see the final product. I think it's good for listeners to hear that you've kind of had to advocate for yourself, trust in yourself. And I think you've shown a path of what belief and grit and, going back to your core of, “My intention is to create meaningful impact and do great things for our Air Force and for the future leaders,” right? I think you can always hang your hat on that with pride. Sam Eckholm Yeah, and I always tell people like what you see as a finished polished video — like, the behind the scenes is crazy. It's like, cameras everywhere, months and months of coordination for the shots and for these approvals. We plan videos — like I'm planning now that you will see six months from now. That's how long it takes. And things change. When I first started out, and it was fun, it was a hobby, it was just what I was doing. And then now when it becomes like, a full-time job, and you have a team now I've got employees who rely on me, like things kind of changed with that. And, you know, definitely the advocating for yourself is something that sometimes hard to do. But it's, it's necessary. And so yeah, it's a lot of lessons I've learned, and I'm still learning. But I'm not going anywhere. I'm gonna' keep going hard. Naviere Walkewicz So, love that. So, your dad and uncle were inspirations to kind of get you into the profession of arms, the Air Force Academy, who inspires you now? Do you listen to any particular leaders? Are there books you read when you have time? You know, what, what kind of fills your inspiration bucket, Sam? Sam Eckholm Yeah. You know, it's crazy. It sounds, there's not necessarily like a, like a one specific person who inspires me. And that's just because I try to consume so much different stuff and take the best from all of those. So yeah, I'm constantly learning, right? If I'm not creating content, I'm watching other content for inspiration, listening to a ton of podcasts, like this one here. So yeah, there's so much we can take from different people and different leaders. It is hard a little bit in my case to find someone who's exactly done what I've done. But there's a lot of people who have done other things and kind of made it, like Col. Kim Campbell, I've been listening to her actually, like what she's been doing with her Air Force career and then afterward and like, I've actually never met her. Naviere Walkewicz You feel like you've met her, right? Sam Eckholm I actually tried to. Same thing with Michelle Karen-Mace. You know, she's not Academy grad, but she's all over the world. And we did similar things in our careers. And so, she's been awesome to talk to as well, in pretty much any Academy grad. And that's something that I really enjoy. Being a member of the Long Blue Line, we come from the same roots. And everyone's very intelligent and understands things. And I've just been able to have so much support with what I've been doing through the grad network, especially when I go out to different bases and units like grads, like, “Hey, Sam, what's up? I'd love to work with you.” And that's been really cool. So, yeah, I mean, a ton of different inspiration from a lot of different people. And, you know, hopefully, I can eventually be that inspiration for someone else who wants to do something similar to what I'm doing. That's exciting to draw inspiration not just from people, but experiences. And what you see, just you're constantly looking for, yes, kind of pieces. Naviere Walkewicz That's pretty special. So, you know, let's talk about right now what is, you know, how are you in support of the Academy through what you're doing? Maybe kind of share with our listeners what that looks like. Sam Eckholm I'm always trying to further the Academy mission with literally every video I produce. I'm always doing something else. So I had the awesome opportunity to partner with Air Force recruiting and we did a six-video series exploring different aircraft, different career fields, — one of my favorite videos we did is actually went down and experienced Air Force Special Tactics officer training for a week in Hurlburt. And I was literally hands and feet behind my back bobbing through the pool like going through selection that normal people train for years for, I had like a week of advance to go out there and do that. So I tried to put myself in uncomfortable situations to show other people what that's like. It was extremely brutal. And I think there's more of that coming down the road as well. As you know, one of the huge goals was to give back to people trying to go to the Academy and honestly level the playing field in my mind with people who maybe don't have graduates or parents who went to the Academy and worked extremely hard work with you guys on the Air Force Academy blueprint program to just have a resource out there where anyone can navigate the Academy application can know what they need to be doing in high school, and to know what to expect once they actually get to the Academy too, and that's been incredibly successful. I mean, we have over 300 atudents enrolled — over two dozen who've been accepted this past class. Naviere Walkewicz I was going to ask: Have you seen any of those come through? Sam Eckholm Yeah, we have. Well, this will be the first year. so they haven't entered yet because we launched last August, right? So yeah, I'm excited. There will be a little mafia of Blueprint students here at the Academy as well. And like I said, that was something — you get so man
Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre '96 opens up about how her leadership journey was transformed by a mis-step she once made that led her to introspection and clarity. ----more---- SUMMARY Gen. Letendre and Doug Lindsay shared their insights on leadership development at the Air Force Academy. They emphasized the importance of resilience, failure, and mentorship in shaping effective leaders. The General highlighted the value of taking advantage of little opportunities and pushing boundaries, while Dr. Lindsay stressed the need for courage and finding one's voice in leadership. Both emphasized the importance of learning from failures and using them as opportunities for growth. QUOTES "Little opportunities can become big opportunities, and you don't necessarily know what that big opportunity is going to be. And you don't necessarily recognize that the little opportunity that you have before you is one of those that's going to somehow blossom in the future." "You practice having that voice early in your career, you practice what it means to be candid, you practice what it means to speak up for the right thing. It doesn't actually get easier, just because you've got rank, it gets easier through practice." "You've got to find your voice. And oftentimes, when I talk to cadets, they're like, "Oh, well, easy for you to say, ma'am. You know, you've got a star on, of course, you've got a voice." But I think that unless you practice having that voice, early in your career, you practice what it means to be candid, you practice what it means to speak up for the right thing." "We want our grads to be better than we ever were. And I can say unabashedly that They are our second lieutenants who are graduating from this institution are better able on day one to take on the challenges that our nation has thrown at them." "I believe my role in our role as senior leaders at the Air Force Academy is to not necessarily predict the future with any certainty. I think I might know who our next adversary is going to be in in conflict. I do know, though, that it's going to be the mental agility in the capabilities and skill sets that we are providing both to our cadets, our first graduating class, but also something we talked about our second graduating class, which is those those faculty that are going to go back out into the Air Force and Space Force. It is that challenge of how do we help them be ready for whatever's coming their way? How do we future proof them?" SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK | TWITTER | LINKEDIN | EMAIL CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction and Background 08:16 Life at the Air Force Academy 15:22 Career Progression and Lessons Learned 26:17 Graduate Involvement and Giving Back 32:25 Leadership Lessons 36:58 Connecting with the Air Force Academy TAKEAWAYS Little opportunities can become big opportunities, so take advantage of opportunities and do your best. Develop your leadership skills by finding your voice and practicing speaking up, even on small matters. This will help you gain confidence. Focus on developing leaders of character by setting a good example and lifting others up. The Air Force Academy is focused on preparing cadets for the future through experiential learning, research, and partnerships with industry. Staying connected to your alma mater through events and social media is a good way to learn about new programs and opportunities to get involved. BRIG. GEN. LETENDRE'S BIO Brigadier General Linell A. Letendre is Dean of the Faculty, U.S. Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs, Colo. She commands the 750-member Dean of Faculty mission element and oversees the annual design and instruction of more than 500 undergraduate courses for 4,000 cadets across 32 academic disciplines. She also directs the operation of five support staff agencies and faculty resources involving more than $350 million. General Letendre graduated from the Academy in 1996 as a Distinguished Graduate with a Bachelor of Science degree in Astronautical Engineering. After serving as an acquisition officer, General Letendre became a judge advocate through the Funded Legal Education Program. She graduated from the University of Washington Law School with high honors and was named to the Order of the Coif and the Order of the Barristers. She is barred at the U.S. Supreme Court, the Supreme Court of Washington, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces, and the Air Force Court of Criminal Appeals. Prior to this assignment, she served as the Permanent Professor and Head of the Air Force Academy's Department of Law. General Letendre previously served as a Staff Judge Advocate at Scott Air Force Base and also represented the Air Force in appellate review of all courts-martial as the Deputy Chief Trial and Appellate Counsel. Additionally, she previously served as the Legal Advisor for the DoD Comprehensive Review Working Group where she advised on legal and policy issues surrounding repeal of “Don't Ask, Don't Tell.” She also defended the Air Force in a range of federal civil litigation involving military personnel, served as Chief of Strategic Communication for The Judge Advocate General, and defended Airmen as an area defense counsel. - Image and copy credit: USAF CONNECT WITH GEN. LETENDRE LINKEDIN | INSTAGRAM ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates! FULL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Guest, Brig. Gen. Linell Leyendre '96 | Host, Dr. Doug Lindsay '92 Dr. Doug Lindsay 01:34 My guest today is Brigadier General Linell Letendre, Air Force Academy class of 1996 and Dean of the Faculty. The general oversees 750 faculty members in more than 500 undergraduate courses for 4,000 cadets across 32 academic disciplines. She also directs the operation of five support staff, agencies, and faculties with attendant resources valued at more than $350 million. General Letendre graduated the Academy, with Distinction receiving a Bachelor of Science degree in astronautical engineering. She served as an Acquisition Officer. She has been a Judge Advocate General and is barred at the US Supreme Court, Supreme Court of Washington, the US Court of Appeals for the armed forces and the Air Force Court of Criminal Appeals. Prior to her current assignment, she served as a permanent professor and head of the Air Force Academy's Department of Law will talk with General Letendre about her life prior to becoming a cadet and what her experience was like at the Academy as a cadet. We'll ask about the progression of her career from acquisitions, to the practice of law to the Dean of the Faculty. Finally, we'll ask the General to share some advice for leaders and a few takeaways for those who want to be leaders. General Letendre, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 02:47 Well, thank you, Doug. I'm excited to be here and I appreciate the invitation. Dr. Doug Lindsay 02:51 Absolutely. Well, let's kind of jump right in. Can you talk a little bit about what your life was like prior to the Academy and what it was like growing up with your family? Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 03:00 Well, according to the cadets, that's talking about what happened in the stone age. But growing up, as a kid, I was not a military brat, but I was what we affectionately call a corporate brat. So we moved about every four to five years. With my father's job, he actually worked at the time for Rockwell International. And so as a family, similar to military families, we were pretty tight. I have an amazing younger brother named Paul. My parents, Dawn and Glenn. We did a lot of camping and hiking and enjoying being placed in a variety of states and places. What's interesting about a corporate brat versus a military brat, though is that you tend to enter into communities that aren't used to people arriving or aren't used to people moving in quite as often. And so I've actually found that my kids had a different experience, because they tended to be embraced by the military community. So that movement around kept us close as a nuclear family and just can't thank my folks enough for raising me with those those values - that belief in family, the importance of giving back to your community. I had a great childhood. Dr. Doug Lindsay 04:25 And so with that kind of moving around, and I like that phrase of a corporate brat, right, because I think it allows us to think about that differently. Because we know the military moves around a lot, but we sometimes don't tend to think that other people do that as well. What were some of those influences that as you grew up that really had an impact on you? Obviously family was really important, but what else was there? Was it things you read, people you met experienced mentors, what was that part? Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 04:52 I think that resiliency that you get when you're the new kid and it's October. I'm in class and you're going from algebra class to geometry class. And boy, you missed that first foundational set of proofs. And so that resiliency of, "It's going to be okay. Change is fine." You get uncomfortable with change of other things that kind of focused me. Yeah, you mentioned things that you read. We had different opportunities then. Each new library that we went to... My mom was a librarian. And so reading was vital, and something that was expected in my family. And one day in a new school, I walked into the elementary school's library, and I discovered a new section, it was called the biographies. And I decided in second grade that I was going to start with A and work my way through the alphabet, and was a little miffed when the librarian told me I could only check out two books, two books a week. So apparently, I was destined to be Dean at some point. But you know, what I learned from that is that by diving into others lives through reading their biographies, you learned as a young child that everyone comes from different experiences. Everyone has different challenges, and maybe yours aren't so insurmountable as you might think. And so I value that experience that I had, being able to move from community to community to to see different parts of the United States, and to really learn that people are people no matter where you're living. Dr. Doug Lindsay 06:31 Those some great lessons, especially learning early on. Were there any particular biographies that really kind of resonated with you that you kind of remember? Was it just the process of that discovery of people's journeys? Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 06:43 Well, I will say I was a little keen on Amelia Earhart's biography. And so maybe that was an early indication that maybe someday I'd end up in the Air Force, although in second grade, I had no idea. And so those explorers, those people who are willing to push boundaries, to take risks, I've tended to be drawn to them a little bit more than others. Dr. Doug Lindsay 07:06 And we'll come to that idea of kind of pushing boundaries and taking risks hearing in a little bit. So what was it that happened during that process that you said, Hey, this military thing might be okay, this Academy, that sounds like something? What was that process? Like, as you tried to think about what you wanted to do when you grew up? Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 07:22 Well, I mentioned my dad worked for Rockwell International. Believe it or not, he was in the automotive section. Not everyone thinks of Rockwell as building the space shuttle. But because he was in Rockwell, he got a model of the space shuttle, and he brought it home. And I was still in elementary school. I still have this model of the space shuttle. It has sat on my desk or in my office for my entire career as a reminder of what got it all started and, and as a kid I learned exactly how that space shuttle operated when the the boosters fell off. And that and the main engine, why they painted it and then didn't paint it. You remember all the changes that the space shuttle had. And that really got me started thinking about space. And as many little kids, I grew up deciding I was going to be an astronaut. And it was later at a corporate picnic that I ran into two high school boys. But they were probably at this point six years older than me. And they were going to this amazing thing called a service academy. One was going to West Point one was going to the Naval Academy. I had never heard of service academies before. We lived in East Tennessee. And I was like what are those? And then they started talking and I started researching a little bit. And, then, I was a smart kid. So I decided, "Well I don't want to go there. I want to go to the Air Force Academy." And so that actually from fifth grade on really became the dream for me that I wanted to come here to the Air Force Academy, major in astronautical engineering and then go on to be an astronaut. Well, I did the first couple and my study partner and classmate Jack Fisher, he did make it up into space. But I got to just watch him from with my two feet firmly planted on the ground. Dr. Doug Lindsay 09:28 And let's talk about that a little bit. So getting to the Academy, that was where you want to go. That was kind of your vision you get here. Can you talk a little bit about maybe some of those highs and lows, lessons learned? What was that? Like, kind of now you're getting here, you're working along your path, your dream. And then all of a sudden, day to day life? What was that like? Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 09:46 Well, I think like many folks who arrive at the Academy, especially those of us who come from small towns, you are big deal, right, in a little bitty town. I came here from a different move. We were living in South Carolina at the time. Rock Hill, South Carolina. And when I got an appointment to the Air Force Academy, I mean, it was a high school assembly to hand me my appointment. It was front page news of the Rock Hill Herald. So it was a big deal. And then you arrive and, wow, you're with 1,300 other classmates. (1,300) is the size of our class when we started, not the size when we ended, but they were all big deals too. And it was humbling. It was humbling being around people who are just as dedicated, who had such amazing work ethic. And I can't say enough about my classmates from the class of 96. They're inspiring. They helped challenge you to be better than you thought possible. So we did have highs and lows. We had good times and challenging times. But through it all, we we bonded and we knew we'd be there for each other. You know, while I was at the Academy, I did a variety of things. You've already mentioned my major. But I was an instructor pilot, I was on the mock trial team, I got to participate in a number of leadership positions to include the spring semester Cadet Wing Commander, which was probably just the highlight of my time to be able to really practice leadership. How you mess up, how you get better, how do you inspire people. And I really credit the Air Force Academy for helping to round me out to provide those experiences where I was allowed to fail. But I was also allowed to pick myself back up to learn from it. And to move on. Dr. Doug Lindsay 11:54 Going to that theme of resilience that you had mentioned earlier, is there a particular failure moment or time that you're like, "This is not who I want to be.", or, "This is not who I think I am." that you kind of caught yourself and allowed you to kind of move on to the next level? Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 12:11 I'll give you a couple. One sounds little but I did learn from it. I was the cadet Wing Commander and the fourth class broke ranks and took the hill. And I knew that the then Deputy Commandant was going to be calling me up to his office asking why I didn't have control of the wing and etc., etc. And so what did I do beforehand? I called up the president of the fourth class, the class of 99. And I just yelled, and as I walked away I went, "Really? Was that, is that leadership? Is that setting the expectation that I want? Is that really how I'm going to behave as a lieutenant?" And it caused me to think about, we might need a different approach, we might need to think about how we develop fourth class cadets in a different way. And so I still remember that moment of, of being disappointed in myself, in my leadership approach. And I'll reflect on that sometimes of when things aren't going right. What are your obligations as a leader to set your people up for success? And it doesn't mean that you just pull them aside and yell at them. That's not how we work in our Air Force and Space Force today. Instead, we've got to set expectations. We have to hold folks and to accountability standards. But then we also have to understand why didn't we meet a particular mission set or a particular standard, and try to understand that a little bit deeper level. I'm just grateful that I had an opportunity to learn that, at least in that case, the hard way. Dr. Doug Lindsay 14:13 Well, the hard way, but in a developmental way. Right? So being able to learn that now, like you said, until you got out on active duty and because when you kind of grow up in a system that becomes normal, right. And so, you know, had that been propagated forward that could have been, you know, the stakes could have been higher. Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 14:30 Absolutely. And it's one thing that I'm I'm so proud of where the Academy has come in and where we're also heading. I see our cadets today and I'll just flash forward a little bit. We'll get back to your questions here in a minute. But let's flash forward to COVID. We knew that we were going to be sending the upper three classes home. And my husband who's also a classmate, Greg Letendre, he knew that we were going to make this announcement. And I'd given him the exact time that he was allowed to contact our sponsor cadets. We had two sponsor cadets. They were sophomores at the time. Three-degrees. And he called right after he knew the announcement was going to be made and said, "Do you need a ride? What? How can we help? Do you need a ride to the airport." And each of those three degrees said, "No, Mr. Letendre. Actually, we need to take care of our four-degrees. First, we're going to make sure they're all set, that they've got either a ride home or a trip to the airport, then we'll worry about ourselves." That's where I think the Air Force Academy has made just incredible strides in thinking about that service before self that what it means to lift others as a leader of character. And boy, I think we've just made amazing strides. And I can't wait to see where the Academy heads from here. Dr. Doug Lindsay 15:55 Yeah, that's a pretty humbling story. As you kind of sit back and go, "Wow!" Just for them to embrace that even early on. Right? It's three degrees (that) go, "I've got some ownership, not just of myself, but in the development of those that have been put in my charge." Right? That's a pretty amazing opportunity to get in there and how you feel a little bit proud also, right? And you'll be able to watch that go through that they picked up on that because we know not everybody graduates with that same depth of appreciation I think of, right? So, that's very cool. Yeah. So you went to the Academy, had a lot of success, obviously. And then kind of went into acquisition, which is a little bit different. And with your astronautical engineering degree. So you spent your first few years in operations, and then between about 1998 and 2019, focused on the area of law and practicing that and a lot of leadership positions. Could you talk a little bit about kind of lessons learned along the way, what you did and how that kind of set you up to be the Dean of the Faculty, which may not have been a career goal of yours when you graduated? Right? Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 17:00 No, not at all. I will say though that when I graduated from the Academy, what I did know, really, as a result of being a soaring instructor pilot... So, I love to teach. I love to lead and I love to teach. And so that idea of teaching, I found there were lots of opportunities to do that along the way. Absolutely. I was, after I graduated from law school, I was able to serve in any number of legal roles, from trial attorney to appellate attorney, advising commanders, leading legal offices. But at every stage, no matter how large the leadership job became, what I found that I fell back to over and over again, were those teaching skills. And and whether it's describing a legal challenge and how a commander can take risks, where that spectrum of options are, and really thinking through to make decisions. Those teaching skills were fundamental to at least my style of how I approached the legal profession. I also got a chance to come back here as a captain and teach on faculty. And really, this notion of developing those who are also coming behind you. And, whether that was developing cadets when I was on faculty or later leading various legal offices and developing those younger JAGS and paralegals, that really was my niche. And, I end up, and a passion for helping to promote those who really are the future of our Air Force, and now the Space Force. And so it was through those opportunities, I think, that sealed the deal that when the role of permanent professor for law came open, I threw my name in the hat. And was so fortunate when I got the call from then Brigadier General Armacost, letting me know that I had gotten that job, and came out here to lead that department. And then to really start to give back to this Academy. Dr. Doug Lindsay 19:18 That idea of I think, is very important, but a subtle one, that idea of, "We're not just leading our teams to be their best," and all that but also pouring into them the opportunity to kind of develop in that teaching skill to be able to kind of teach the teachers right to be able to kind of help do that. And how have you been able to do that kind of as you moved up, right, because sometimes as you know, move up in the leadership ranks, you lose that connection with kind of the front line and being able to really (be in) the classroom and being in there where the teaching really happens. Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 19:51 Yeah, I think part of it is how you set that vision, that strategy for moving forward. I went through a great leadership program out at at Harvard. In fact, this particular class was taught by retired Brigadier General Dana Born, who asked us to think about your leadership mantra, you know, what is it about what you do, regardless of if they made you the Dean of the Faculty, or they put you in any job, either in the military or outside the military and, as I wrestled with that, I came up with mine. And it's, "blasting crews to future universes." This notion, or this idea that I'm not going to be alongside, whether it's my younger faculty or these cadets after they graduate, in that future universe, but what is it that we have to do to support them, to challenge them to inspire them, such that as they get to that future destination, that they're ready, and that they're equipped? I believe my role - our role - as senior leaders at the Air Force Academy is to not necessarily predict the future with any certainty. I think I might know who our next adversary is going to be in conflict. But the United States has been wrong before. I certainly don't know what strides the technology is going to take between here and there. I do know, though, that it's going to be the mental agility in the capabilities and skill sets that we are providing both to our cadets, our first graduating class, but also something we talked about our second graduating class, which is those those faculty that are going to go back out into the Air Force and Space Force. It is that challenge of, how do we help them be ready for whatever's coming their way? How do we future-proof them? And that's what I see my role as the Dean of Faculty. Dr. Doug Lindsay 22:00 So, can you talk a little bit more about that idea? Right, so that first graduating class, I think that makes sense, right? That's sending the future officers out in the Air and Space Forces, but that second class as well, right, that those advocates, those champions of kind of not just learning, everything that we're trying to do? What does that look like in terms of you've got, you know, 750 faculty, we have 4,000 cadets, both of those components are very important. How do you really lean into that one about thinking about how we're sending our folks out, back to the service? Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 22:35 Well, one of the ways that we do that is we've got a pretty clear mission statement. Now, at the Dean of Faculty, we support obviously, the Air Force Academy's larger mission, which is to develop leaders of character within the Dean of the Faculty that we believe our portion of that is to educate and inspire warfighter scholars. So this confluence of not just a warfighter ethos, but also the disciplinary and more importantly, the interdisciplinary understanding and expertise to be able to apply that to future conflict. And so when we think about graduating both of those classes, we have become very deliberate within the Dean of Faculty and really across the entire institution. And we are laser focused on that future fight. So, how do we do that? And this is where I think the Academy has changed remarkably, and I love talking to classes who come back for the reunions. What's fundamentally changed, I think, since our time at the Air Force Academy and now is that not only is that curriculum, laser focused on the future fight, this is experiential learning opportunities that we're providing that ability to take what you're learning in the classroom, and then go in and solving real world research problems that are helping the warfighter. The Air Force Academy, Doug, you may know, is the number one funded undergraduate research institution in the country, we do over $40 million dollars worth of research every single year. And that goes across all disciplines. And not only is that helping our cadets learn how to apply or to think through different, different challenges that the warfighters are facing. But it also helps our faculty that are alongside them who are working through those same very same research challenges. And so that's where we get this idea of graduating to classes, and how we helped to shape to focus that future fight both in and outside of the classroom. Dr. Doug Lindsay 24:45 So as you think back, it must be kind of neat in your position now to think back to Cadet Letendre back in the day, to be able to think about the experience you had and how and how impactful that was for you. And now with the resources and the opportunity, the IFC and other things that are out there available to really help prepare cadets because it's not just about learning, but it's about learning how to learn, right, the whole process and being able to partner with other organizations, right, that's got to be pretty cool to see that transformation over time. Right? Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 25:20 (It) is and I'll just give you a little example. You've probably heard the Falcon SAT program. Well, I actually worked on something that predated Falcon SAT. The first time that cadets were briefing me about the history of Falcon SAT, they didn't even include the work that my class did with with Falcon Gold. They've since updated the slide. But we were working with any number of majors from electrical engineering to astronautical engineering and mechanical engineering. But we had literally dusted off a closet that I think the mechanical engineering department loaned out to the Astro department, right? There's no such thing as a clean-room. We're working on the development of a very simple satellite that we thought we might launch on a high altitude balloon. Flash forward to today. Not only do we have investment from other DoD entities like AFRL, and Space Force, but we have profound investment from our graduate community that is making Falcon SAT the premier undergraduate institution that is not only designing, developing, building, launching, and then flying satellites, I only half jokingly say that the United States Air Force Academy has more satellites in orbit than most small countries, because it's true. And those satellites, these cadets, and those opportunities that they have to take what they're learning in the classroom to apply it. And then they're actually once in orbit, working some DoD missions as well. And it's been a remarkable operation to watch. And sometimes I just shake my head and imagine, boy, if only Jack Fisher and I could get back here, in this Astro lab, how much fun we would have. Dr. Doug Lindsay 27:15 So you mentioned the graduate community, their involvement as well. Right? So we have other corporate entities and all that doing that as well. Can you talk a little bit about the value of that kind of giving back not just through supporting the academy, but that involvement, that active involvement in the learning process? And what that's like? Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 27:34 Giving back is critical. I like to think of it as those those sparks that if you think about what venture capitalists do, right, they, provide a spark and whether that's through seed money to try something new and different, whether that's through expertise and the use of time and knowledge as a resource. That's where I've seen grads giving back to the Air Force Academy, in really a variety (of) spectacular ways, you know, from our Institute of Future Conflict to this Fall, where we're going to open up the new Madeira Cyber Innovation Center, which is going to revolutionize how we not only think Teach, but also research with respect to the cyber domain to the Martinson Honors Program, which is just a phenomenal opportunity for for our cadets who are at the the cutting edge of thinking about interdisciplinary work through an academic lens. We're working now on the potential to have that kind of investment in the Academic Success Center, to make sure that all of our cadets are able to take on our challenging coursework any number of ways that as I walk through the halls, as I walk through our research labs, as I talk to our faculty, or as I see cadets taking part in clubs and activities. NCLS, the Academy couldn't do what it does today without that support that we get, not only from graduates, but from foundations, as well as corporations around the world. Dr. Doug Lindsay 29:19 So I appreciate that ability (to) have the opportunity to stay connected, right? So, it's not just kind of up on the Hill, it's being able to, you know, lots of opportunities and ways to serve and get back. And as you talk through those different opportunities and talk through about the cyber center, the IFC, the Martinson, all of that. It sounds like as we think about kind of the great power competition and what's going on that we're setting our cadets up for success in being able to be involved and in really help to influence that moving forward. Right? Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 29:51 Absolutely. And we, want our grads to be better than we ever were. And I can say unabashedly that they, our second lieutenants who are graduating from this institution. are better able on day one to take on the challenges that our nation has thrown at them. And we need an institution that continues to not only rise to that challenge, but continues to change. That gets better over time. And that remains at this point laser focused on great power competition. And that's what I'm seeing, not just out of the faculty and academic staff in DF, but across the institution, our AOCs, our AMT's, our coaches, every one of us knows what our mission is, and, and the challenges that our second lieutenants are going to be facing. On day one, I couldn't be more proud of what this Academy is doing. Dr. Doug Lindsay 30:45 And I think you hit on an important part there because as I think about my experience a few years before yours with True Blue 92, I have to put that in there, that ability to really see I think, people's place in the overall mission because I think previously there, it was really easy to kind of stay stovepipe, stay in your lane. Think about, okay, this is I'm just going to kind of be here to teach. But it seems like there's been a broadening of my purpose, right, as a person comes into the Academy, the permanent party, faculty, staff anywhere, to really say, I've got a place here, I know what my place is and I know how I contribute to the larger mission. Is that fair to say? Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 31:23 Oh, absolutely. I think that's all wrapped up in our mission to develop leaders of character. And this notion and idea that I first have to live honorably, that's taking care of who I am. That's that honor code, that, that we all espouse to that in that integrity that we bring with us day in and day out. But then that next phrase, or that that leader or characters is that we need to lift others, you know, we lift all of those around us, because we know that if we don't get the best out of every member of our team, we're never going to get to the final stage, which is that performance piece, that ability to accomplish the mission. And, and so I think that leader, a character framework, which is helping us to really center, not just cadets, but permanent party, around one goal. And so you see that, and everyone really does understand how they're contributing to that overarching mission. And they're all in, right? Dr. Doug Lindsay 32:27 And, what I like about that kind of orienting function of developing leaders of character, because it puts a responsibility on me to to go, "If I'm going to develop leaders of character, then I need to think about how I'm showing up as a leader of character and how I do that. So I can kind of model and orient as well. Right. So I like that. That kind of responsibility puts on me as a faculty or staff member to go, I need to make sure I'm showing up the way I need to so that I can help them show up the way they need to as well. Right. Absolutely. Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 32:57 And that is probably the part that that makes me the most proud as I wander the hallways or show up at a sporting event or, or watch our cadets engage in military training exercises. I'm not only seeing them live that day in and day out. But I see those permanent party who are setting that role model and example. Just across the board. Dr. Doug Lindsay 33:24 Yeah, that's gotta be, yeah, very satisfying. Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 33:27 I have the best job in the Air Force, Space Force. Dr. Doug Lindsay 33:31 So kind of wrapping up, can you maybe share it? Through the journey that you've had maybe some lessons, you've kind of learned about leadership along the way, obviously, you've been very successful at every level you've done. And that doesn't happen by accident. It doesn't happen without work. So what were some of those lessons that you learned along the way, whether it was early on in acquisitions, it was in your log, or now as the dean, that you'd like to pass on? Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 33:57 One of the lessons that I've learned is that little opportunities can become big opportunities. And you don't necessarily know what that big opportunity is going to be. And you don't necessarily recognize that the little opportunity that you have before you is one of those that's going to somehow blossom in the future. And so when I talk with cadets, I talk about, "Take advantage of the little opportunities, knock them out of the park." I'll share a little opportunity. I was legal counsel on on a case that had a potential to go to the United States Supreme Court. And I was brought in along I was a major. I was brought in with all of the Judge Advocate General's from all of the services. So these are two and three stars, who were sitting down with the General Counsel of the Department of Defense at the time, Mr. J. Johnson, who later became Secretary Johnson and head of the Department of Homeland Security And so they're having this conversation about whether or not this case should go to the Supreme Court. And and at the conclusion, Mr. Johnson passes around a memo and says, hey, does this need any editing? You know, is this what we want to send to the to DOJ, to the Department of Justice to the attorney general? And, and everyone around the table, except for me, nodded their head up and down. It looks great, sir. Looks great. And I looked at him like, this memo could be improved. And I started to edit it. And on the way out, I you know, I handed it off to Mr. Johnson's exec, and said, Hey, I think this could use a little improvement here and there, here's some thoughts. It wasn't about a month or so later, that I then got a call from my Judge Advocate General Lieutenant General Rives who said, Mr. Johnson wants that major. That major had the audacity to edit his memo to come and help serve as the legal counsel, as well, as one of the prime edit authors of the report regarding the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, I would have never expected that editing a little paper, or a memo would have led them to this enormous opportunity to work directly for general ham army four star as well as Mr. Johnson. And so I think those how you think about the little opportunities that then become the big opportunities is one leadership lesson that that I would pass along. Dr. Doug Lindsay 36:30 And we could spend probably another couple hours unpacking that one, you had to have the knowledge to understand what was there. So there's a competence piece, but there's also a courage piece to kind of lean out a little bit when you're maybe outranked around the room. And everybody else is kind of saying, Yeah, this is the way to go. But you know that there's something else that's there, right? Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 36:49 Yeah, and I think that leads maybe to a second leadership lesson is, you've got to find your voice. And oftentimes, when I talk to cadets, they're like, "Oh, well, easy for you to say, ma'am. You know, you've got a star on, of course, you've got a voice." But I think that unless you practice having that voice early in your career, you practice what it means to be candid, you practice what it means to speak up for the right thing. It doesn't actually get easier, just because you've got rank, it gets easier through practice. And so that's one of those lessons that we talk with cadets about all the time, how do they find their voice today, on the small things, so that when they need to have a voice on the big things, they've had some practice before. Dr. Doug Lindsay 37:39 I love that idea of of practice, and kind of embracing the moment, right? We think a lot of times people make that mistake with leadership and think, "Well, I'm not in a leadership position. So I can't really lead.", and we know that's just not true. You can. So, that idea of learning your voice, learning to lead, just really taking advantage of the opportunities that are in front of you, so that you can then maybe down the road have the opportunity to get (better). So, I appreciate those thoughts in there, as we think about kind of people want to be connected. So, if the listeners want to kind of connect more, find out more about the Academy and what are some things that they can do to kind of connect more with the Academy and find out more about what's going on? Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 38:18 Oh, absolutely. There's any variety of ways. Not only does our usafa.edu website contain information about all of our amazing programs and opportunities, from athletics at gofalcons.com, to what's up in the cadet wing, my amazing classmate and commandant, Brigadier General Gavin Marks, who is leading the cadet wing, but also any number of things that are going on on the academic side as well. Every department's got a website. They talk about their current curriculum, their faculty, the research that they're doing. You are also welcome to follow me on my LinkedIn site, or my Instagram page. The Supt. has an amazing Instagram page as well. Lot's of different ways through both social media as well as the internet to understand what we're doing. But I think one of the best ways is, come on back. Come back to your Academy. Come to a reunion, talk to a grad, talk to a cadet. Anytime I'm having a bad day, I pull a cadet aside and just chat for a few minutes. And believe me, it's gonna make your day. Dr. Doug Lindsay 39:27 That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time, your your lessons, your leadership, your example and thank you for your time today on longer leadership. Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre 39:35 Awesome. Thank you so much, Doug. KEYWORDS cadets, academy, air force academy, faculty, leadership, opportunities, class, learning, dean, work, people, talk, graduated, challenges, air force, mission, leaders, number, space shuttle, future The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
USAFA Class of 2010 valedictorian, Maj. Austin McKinney, discusses how the trust he earned and integrity he learned as a cadet led him to the U.S. Department of State where he helps build relationships between U.S. and global leaders.----more---- SUMMARY Maj. Austin McKinney '10 shares his journey from the Air Force Academy to becoming a Foreign Service Officer with the State Department. He emphasizes the importance of public service, teamwork, and never accepting the first no. McKinney highlights the value of the Academy's wide core curriculum and the opportunities it provides for personal and professional growth. He also discusses the significance of integrity and reputation in leadership and the need to adapt to the changing perspectives and interests of the younger generation. McKinney encourages others to consider the reserves as a way to stay connected to the military and emphasizes the importance of convincing young people of the value of joining the military and the Academy. The conversation explores the importance of storytelling in leadership and the value of being ready to say yes. It emphasizes the need to listen actively and understand the core similarities that unite people across different cultures. The conversation also highlights the challenge of transitioning from a tactical leader to a strategic leader and the importance of building relationships and networks. The key takeaways include the significance of delegation, the need for personal board of advisors, and the importance of being part of a supportive community. OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "Part of leadership is process. But part of leadership is relationships." "Leadership by walking around is talking to people and developing those relationships, not sitting in your office and just working on the next memo, or the next email." "Never never accept the first no." "Always be ready to say yes." "We're (USAFA grads) part of a special community and always be contributing two is what I would encourage us all to think about it." SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK | LINKEDIN |
A conversation between brothers in arms who have known each other since the early 1980s - one an athlete, the other his coach at the time.----more---- SUMMARY Neither has ventured far from the Air Force or the Academy. Lt. Gen. Richard Clark '86, the Academy's 21st superintendent, opens up about his leadership journey to Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Mike Gould '76, the man who first coached him all those years ago. Gen. Clark's leadership story is exceptional and Gen. Gould does a masterful job of helping him tell it. OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "The one thing that doesn't change is our mission. And our mission is to develop lieutenants, better leaders of character that are ready to go out and win our wars and that are ready to go out support defend the Constitution. That is it." "Whenever there's Americans on the ground, we're going to do whatever it takes to help them you will do whatever it takes." "Seeing those young guys go out there and do that, and do what they needed to do to help other Americans to help their fellow servicemen that made me prouder than anything." "I am very happy and comfortable to leave this torch with them to hand the torch off to them. And I'm just proud to have served with them." "I am leaving with a lot of gratitude in my heart, just from our cadets from our permanent party, from the alumni that helped us do this and the other supporters." SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK | LINKEDIN | TWITTER | EMAIL CHAPTERS 00:00: Introduction and Mission of the Air Force Academy 01:09: Lieutenant General Rich Clark's Background and Career 08:27: Making the Best of Unexpected Assignments 10:18: Leadership in Challenging Situations 00:09: Introduction 07:28: Enhancing the Academy's Facilities and Programs 14:57: Developing Leaders of Character 31:11: The Importance of Alumni and Supporters 37:51: Transitioning to the Role of Executive Director of the College Football Playoff 45:08: Conclusion TAKEAWAYS - Leadership is developed through challenging experiences like overcoming adversity, mentoring others, and leading in high-pressure situations like combat. - Support from family, mentors, and sponsor families can help one persevere through difficult times and find purpose. - Having an open mind and making the most of unexpected opportunities can lead to unexpected benefits and career success. - Giving back to one's alma mater through things like financial support, mentorship, and service helps continue its mission and benefits future generations. - Expressing gratitude to those who support your mission helps foster positive relationships and a sense of shared purpose. LT. GEN. CLARK'S BIO Lt. Gen. Richard M. Clark '86 is the Superintendent, U.S. Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs, Colorado. He directs a four-year regimen of military training, academics, athletic and character development programs leading to a Bachelor of Science degree and a commission as a second lieutenant in the United States Air Force or United States Space Force. Lt. Gen. Clark graduated from the U.S. Air Force Academy in 1986. His commands include the 34th Bomb Squadron, Ellsworth Air Force Base, South Dakota; 12th Flying Training Wing, Randolph AFB, Texas; Eighth Air Force, Barksdale AFB, Louisiana, and Joint Functional Component Commander for Global Strike, Offutt AFB, Nebraska. He has also served as a White House Fellow in Washington, D.C.; the Commandant of Cadets, U.S. Air Force Academy, Colorado; Senior Defense Official/Defense Attaché, Cairo, Egypt, and as the Commander, Third Air Force, Ramstein Air Base, Germany. Prior to his current assignment, Lt. Gen. Clark served as the Deputy Chief of Staff for Strategic Deterrence and Nuclear Integration, Headquarters U.S. Air Force, the Pentagon, Arlington, Virginia. - Copy and image credit: af.mil ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates! FULL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Our guest is Lt. Gen. Richard Clark '86 | Our host is Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Mike Gould '76 Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 00:12 The one thing that doesn't change is our mission. And our mission is to develop lieutenants, better leaders of character, that are ready to go out and win our wars and that are ready to go out and support and defend the Constitution. That's it. Announcer 00:27 Welcome to the Long Blue Leadership podcast. These are powerful conversations with United States Air Force Academy graduates who have lived their lives with distinction. All leaders of character who candidly share their stories, including their best and worst moments, the challenges they've overcome the people and events that have shaped who they are, and who willingly lend their wisdom to advance your leadership journey. Your host for this special presentation of Long Blue Leadership is Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Mike Gould, USAFA class of '76 and currently serving as a member of the Association and Foundation board of directors. And now, Gen. Mike Gould. Lt. Gen Mike Gould 01:09 My guest today is Lt. Gen. Rich Clark, the 21st superintendent of the Air Force Academy, Class of '86 at USAFA, and if I'm not mistaken, you're about 46 days away from retiring. After a 38-year career, that when you think about it, has spanned so much in our country, starting with the Cold War through conflicts in Southwest Asia, in the Middle East, and the culture wars that we all experience today. I think his experience in active duty is highlighted most by seven commands that he's held; a bomb squadron, a training wing, to numbered Air Force's, the joint functional component command for Global Strike, served as the commandant of cadets here at the Academy. And now like I said, as the 21st superintendent. In addition to that, Gen. Clark served as the senior defense official, and the defense attaché in Cairo during some interesting times, and also served as a White House fellow. And if that's not enough, he's flown over 4,200 hours in the B1, both the EC and KC-135, the T1, the T38, the T6 and the T21. And most notably, 400 of those hours are in combat. So Rich, as you look back on the past nearly four decades of service, I'm sure you have a lot to think about as it's all coming to an end. And really, how it all started. I'd like you to please share with us a little bit about your life as a young child. And you know, some of the influential people who you met in your formative years, and then kind of how that led you here to the Air Force Academy. Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 02:58 Wow, well, first, can I call you Coach, General Gould? Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 03:02 You (can) call me Coach… Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 03:03 I'll call you Coach because you were my coach when I was here, and you saw me walk in the doors here. So, I'll talk a little bit about that. But I just want to thank you for letting me be here today. This is a real honor. So, thank you. Lt. Gen. Richard Clark But I grew up in the Bay Area, Oakland, Berkeley, California, and my parents were divorced. So, it was my mother, my brother and I. And then when my mom got remarried, we moved to the East Coast to Richmond, Virginia, and that's where I went to high school, and not a military family. My dad was drafted back in the Vietnam era. He served a short tour, so I don't really remember those days. So, I don't consider myself really from a military family and really hadn't considered joining the military. I played football, I played a lot of sports. Growing up, football was my primary — and track actually, but football the primarily, and I had signed to go to William & Mary in Virginia, and I was going with my best friend from high school and actually in junior high. And Coach Ken Hatfield came to my house. And the Air Force had been recruiting me. So did Army and Navy. And he actually came to my house though and visited my parents. And he had dinner at our house, and my mom thought, “He is such a nice man. And he was like, “Look, just come out and see the Air Force Academy.” Now what he didn't know was that I wanted to, I was very interested in flying more commercial. I always thought I wanted to be a commercial pilot. And he convinced me to come out. My mom was like, “Just go; it's free.” You know, I was like, OK, and so I still had a couple of college visits left. So, I came to the Air Force Academy. I'll be honest, I got here and after seeing the place and seeing the opportunities to fly — just to have a great education and to play Division I college football, I was hooked. And I, my dad — my stepdad who I consider my dad — made me call the coach at William & Mary tell him I was changing my mind. And I signed and came to Air Force. And when I got off the bus and got on those footprints , and they started yelling at me, I was like, “Hey, wait, I'm a football player. You're not supposed to yell at me.” That's what I thought. And that was not true. And the rest is history. And, you know, it was an important decision in my life, certainly. But, you know, I appreciate Coach Hatfield being persistent and coming to get me and, you know, talk to my parents, formative people, obviously. But it was a great decision. Great decision. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 05:48 Did you also visit West Point and or Annapolis? Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 05:52 I did not because I didn't want to go to a — I wasn't interested, really in a service academy. What I will say, though, I did fill out an application to Air Force before Coach Hatfield came. And I did go and do an interview with my congressional member. Because my guidance counselor convinced me to do that in case I didn't get another good offer from somewhere else. And I actually got a congressional appointment. But then the Academy contacted me, and I told them I was going to turn it down. And that's when Coach Hatfield came to my house. But I, I went through the motions, I think, but I didn't really have an intention to come. I wanted to go to William & Mary, and I wasn't even going to visit Army and Navy because, you know, there wasn't something I was interested in. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 06:46 I'll bet you've looked back and asked yourself the question, what would you be doing now had you gone to William and Mary, or one of these other schools? Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 06:54 Hard for me to picture my life without being in the Air Force and the Air Force Academy, right? Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 07:01 Now, you let on a little bit about falling in on the footprints. But as you look back at arriving at the Academy, and you're in now, you signed up and you're going to be a Falcon, what kind of memories do you have about basic training and leading into your first fall semester? Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 07:21 Yeah. So, here's the here's one memory I definitely have — and I talk to the cadets about this sometimes — I mentioned the phone-booth to them. And they're like, “What? “What's a phone booth?” Well, you know, I explained to them, there were these big boxes that had a telephone and you had a card that you could call home. And in basic training, about halfway through, you got to call home. And I call my mom. And I said, “Mom, this place is not for me. I'm ready to come home.” She's like, “Oh, that's great. Because the William & Mary coach called last week to see how you're doing. You could probably still get your scholarship.” And I was like, “Oh.” I was expecting her to say, “Well, you better not come home.” But she said, “You know, that's OK.” And truth is, I looked out the door, you know, they had the glass doors, and all my classmates are lined up out the door waiting for their turn to come in. And honestly, I thought, “Man, I'm not ready to leave these guys yet.” And so, she said, “You come on home, it's OK.” And I said, “Well, you know what, mom, I think I'm just gonna' finish basic training. And then I'll see. I want to stick that out with these guys.” You know, I made some great friends. It's not what I expected, but I liked the people. So, I stayed. And then after basic training, she asked me, “Are you still going to come home?” And I said, “Well, you know, I think I'll stick it out one semester, I'd really like to play football because I've gotten in with the team now. And I got some friends on the team. So maybe I could play one season. I think I've got a good chance to make the varsity.” And I did that. And then it was, “You know, Mom, maybe I'll stay for my rest of my freshman year.” It was like one step at a time until eventually I was like, “You know, I'm in.” But it was not a done deal for a while for me, you know, where I just said, “You know what, this is it. I'm in the right place.” I think after that first year, though, I realized that I was, you know — it took some time though. And football had a lot to do with it. The friends you make, the success we had as a team. That was just great. And I love my squadron. I was in 7th Squadron. Great, great friends there. So, after a year though, I feel like I was in but there was that moment in that phone booth and basic training where I was like, “Man, I don't know.” But I did it and I'm glad I did. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 09:52 Well, everything you just went through right there was referencing the people. That's what kept you there. But then you get into academics and you get your military training. How did you navigate some of those things? And you know, I know you had fun with your buddies and football is always a hoot. But about the other challenges that the Academy threw at you? Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 10:15 Yeah. So, I actually, I liked academics, I did pretty well, I was on Dean's List most semesters, like seven of my eight semesters, I made the Dean's List. So not that I didn't have some challenges. I mean, there's those certain courses that you're just like, “Oh, my goodness.” But overall, academics wasn't the big challenge. I think the challenge for me was not having some of the freedoms that you wanted early on because you're sort of getting acclimatized to it, you know, you're getting used to not being able to do certain things, the military lifestyle, you have to get used to that a little bit. But once I got that — and going back to the people, everybody's kind of struggling with that. And when you're all struggling together, it just makes it a lot more bearable and doable. And I think after that first year, I was in, I was like, “You know, I'm in the right place. And I'm gonna' stay here.” I did have a moment though. When I was a sophomore, I tore my knee up playing football, the last game, San Diego State. Just ripped my ACL. My MCL — meniscus cartilage — had [to be] reconstructed. And I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to play football again. And that made me kind of think a little bit about was I going to stay. And I had to come to terms with some things, you know, “Why am I here? What's my real purpose?” And as much as football meant to me, I was here for something bigger than that. And I realized that unfortunately, at that point when I was injured, I think that was also the point where I really came to terms with why I was here, that it was something bigger than myself. And I wanted to be a part of it. And so I stayed. I was still determined to play and I did get to play, you know, the next season. But my purpose was a bit different, you know, and that injury really helped me kind of figure things out and sort through my greater purpose. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 12:18 Gave you that confidence of overcoming adversity. Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 12:21 Absolutely. Like sports does. Right. That's it. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 12:24 Now, back in my day, we didn't really have a sponsorship program — sponsor families in town. But I think by the time you were a cadet, that program existed to have a sponsor family. Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 12:41 They were awesome. The Frables, Neil and Elizabeth. I just had lunch with Neil about four months ago. We still we stay in touch and they're just awesome. And they were so good. They sponsored four of us. And they actually gave each of us a key to their house. And a key to their third car. Oh, my goodness, that was a lifesaver. And they cooked a lot. And we ate a lot. And they just they really opened their homes up to us. So, I credit them. I mean, they were my second family, and still just love them for what they did for us. They were a great, great sponsor family. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 13:24 When you were a cadet, did you participate in any formal leadership programs? Did you hold some positions within the cadet wing? Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 13:35 O don't think they thought that highly of me. I wasn't that kind of cadet. I was the D.O. for my squadron. And that was because one of my buddies was a squadron commander. He's like, “Hey, man, will you help me?” And I was like, “Yeah, I'll do this.” But that was the most leadership experience I got and, you know, informal way. But I was glad to do that. It was my squadron. Although, when I told my friends to clean their rooms up and stuff, they'd always give me grief. You know, all these seniors. We were all seniors together. And they're like, “Who are you to tell me this?” Peer leadership is the hardest thing in the world. But yeah, I didn't rise to the level of like group or wing leadership or anything like that. So, the cadets were already surprised to hear that I'm like not, I wasn't that good of a cadet. I mean, I was like your average kind of cadet that did pretty well. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 14:28 Well, you're being modest here. I watched you lead on that football team. You guys had some success and a really tight group. Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 14:35 We did. I loved our team. We had a lot of leaders on our football team, though. And people — I always characterize the leadership on our football team — people knew when they needed to lead. You know, there was just times where someone needed to step up and be a leader. And it might not be that you were the leader all the time. But when it was needed, somebody always stepped up. And that was I think the hallmark of our team. And it was just a great group of people, humble leaders, all about team success. And I learned as much leadership from football as I did anywhere else here at the Academy. And credit to Coach DeBerry, Coach Hatfield, you know, all of our coaches, and my teammates, for just helping me develop as a man and, and what kind of a leader and person I wanted to be. So that was as much of a leadership laboratory as anything for me. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 15:33 So, it sounds like when it came time to toss your hat and put on the gold bars, you were prepared to go out and be a lieutenant in the Air Force. Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 15:43 I think I was. And my first job was right back and coaching football here. So that was a nice transition from the Academy. I taught unarmed combat, PE, and I coached the JV football team and you, you were at the prep school then I think, Coach, and so… But that was a phenomenal job. And there were like eight of us that stayed back and did that. That was just great. And you know, you had to employ some leadership there because you're trying to lead the cadets. And whether they're on football or in the PE class. So, I learned a lot doing that, but I really enjoyed it. I love being back here. And honestly, it gave me a whole different appreciation for the Academy. Because when you're a cadet, you are looking about five feet in front of you and you don't stop to look at the mountains and you don't stop to look at all that everybody's doing to make this place happen and the passion that people really have for our cadets. That was when I first kind of said, “You know what, this place really is special.” But you don't get that as a cadet necessarily. Some cadets, so they're special anyway, but cadets like me, I didn't know, and I was just ready to graduate. But that one year gave me a whole different appreciation. And I'm grateful for it. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 17:00 Right. And then you headed off to pilot training and like most lieutenants, you know, you're gonna' mix in with a new group of people, a new group of friends. Talk to us about your experience as a student pilot, and then on to start your career flying big airplanes. Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 17:18 Yes. So, me and one of my good friends, Mike Chandler, we decided we were going to go to pilot training together. He was a teammate in football. And we were actually roommates when we traveled. And we decided we're going together. So, we both went to Laughlin. And we thought we'll go to Laughlin so there's no distractions, there's good weather, we're going to kill pilot training. And when we got there, we realized there's no distractions at all. And there was nothing else to do there. But we had a great time because of the people in our class. And we're the only two Academy grads in the class. But we just we bonded well as a class and pilot training was pretty good. I do remember though, I almost washed out, like in the first month, because I had a couple bad rides in a row. And you know how you get a couple, three bad rides, and you're out? And especially in those days, we lost half of our class, they washed out 50% of our class. And I had these bad rides. And I had to go to what they call an 89. You know, and what that was if you if you fail three rides in a row, right? If you couldn't do your no-flap landings, and you couldn't get them right in the T-37, then you went to an 88. You fail the 88, then you go to the 89. 89 was the elimination, right? And so, I had to go to an 89. And I had to fly with the squadron commander. And the night before, I call my mom again. I always called my mom. And I was like, Mom, tomorrow might be my last flight because I flew today, I failed the ride, and I don't think a whole lot is gonna' change between tonight and tomorrow. And she was like, “Well enjoy it. Because it might be the last time you get to fly an airplane, so you need to at least have fun. It's been your dream and my heart goes out to you. But enjoy the flight. Don't make your last flight something that was a bad memory for you.” And I was like, “Well, if I fail, it's gonna' be a bad memory.” She said, “But at least have fun. You can have fun.” But it was great advice because I went up there, Coach, and I was just relaxed. I even stopped studying when I called her. I didn't study that night. I went to bed, got up in the morning, didn't get up early and study. I went in there, I did my ground evals. I was usually pretty good in the ground evals and I just went up and I flew the sortie. I remember, he told me to do a cloverleaf, you know, the maneuver the cloverleaf, which was my favorite. I did the cloverleaf and he goes, “OK, we can head on back to the pattern now get your pattern work done.” And I said, “Can I do one more clover?” And he's like, “I don't recommend it, the one you did was fine.” And I said, “I know I just like the cloverleaf. Sir, can I just do one more?” He was like, “OK.” And I did another cloverleaf thinking, “You know, this might be my last time I did the cloverleaf.” I flew back to the pattern, I'm talking to the IP and stuff. I did my landings, you know, really uneventful. Got out of the plane, we're walking back, and he goes, “I don't even know why you're in this ride. That was a great ride.” And I was like, “You mean, I passed?” And he was like, “Yeah, great job today, Lt. Clark, you passed.” And what I realized, it was about just relaxing and flying the plane. And it was the best lesson I ever got in an airplane, when you can relax and just let your training kick in. And just don't worry and let your instincts take over. You just fly better. And my mom sort of taught me that. She's like, “Just relax and have a good time.” So, I sort of credited her with keeping me at the Academy. She got me through pilot training. I mean, she was my mom, too. So, I give her that credit. But yeah, that was a good pilot training memory. And, you know, everything's been great since then. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 21:12 So, you head off, and you're going to the EC135 first, right? So, talk to me a little bit about your career progression there as a captain and major and things you look back on from that period. Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 21:27 Well, so, here's one big lesson that I got out. When I got the EC135, I wanted to fly C-130. Really I wanted to fly a gunship. And I thought, “I don't even know what that is I didn't put it on my dream sheet. How did I end up getting this?” I was bummed out. And then one of the IP(s) said, “You know, they handpick people to go into the EC135.” Oh, really? Well, because the EC135 was the airborne command post — the nuclear mission at Offutt and you always had a general officer on board. And you could only fly with instructor pilots and a co-pilot. You couldn't have a straight aircraft commander in that plane. And the co-pilot had an immense amount of responsibility in that mission, and you got a whole lot of flying time. And when you got done with that assignment in two years, you got your choice of your next assignment. And a lot of guys went to fighters. They had to compete for that. But then for me, it was the B-1 and I saw that that was available. And I learned that when I first walked in the door because several people got to FP111s and B-1s. And I was like, “Man, I could do this.” I got 2,000 hours in the T-38 because they had the ACE program, the companion trainer program in the EC. And between those two aircraft, I got 2,000 hours, which was plenty for me to go into the B-1. And then I flew the B-1 basically the rest of my career. And so, it was really one of the lessons I learned. Sometimes you get put somewhere that maybe it didn't want or maybe didn't expect, but you make the best of it. And sometimes there's these, sort of, hidden benefits and successes that you didn't even know about. But if you go there and just bloom where you're planted, good things happen. And I learned that early. Fortunately, in the EC135. I flew the B-1 for 17 years. I flew at McConnell which ended up moving B-1s out of there. Dyess Air Force Base, I flew at Ellsworth as a squadron commander. I did do a stint in the Pentagon and legislative liaison in there and I was also a White House fellow, which was an amazing opportunity for me. But those years and the B-1 and doing the Pentagon and the White House fellow were really amazing years. I met Amy in there and we got married. When I was stationed at Dyess as a captain, well, actually I met her as a captain — we dated, and I pinned on just a few months before we got married. But my flying career was just awesome. And my first command was just absolutely a pinnacle point. It was squadron commander and the 34th Bomb Squadron. And I got into that squadron. Sept. 5, 2001, is when I showed up for that and I had just left the White House fellowship, which was just a fantastic opportunity. But I was riding high Sept. 5, and then Sept. 11, happens and everything changed. The squadron deployed and I wasn't checked out yet in the B-1. I had to go through a re-qual program. And so, I can remember when they left. The squadron was heading out and they were, “…or maybe we could just take you as an unqualified pilot,” blah, blah, blah. There was no way that that was going to happen. And so, I can remember that day, when they were leaving, they left about a month after Sept. 11, in October. And I just went and helped pack up bags. I just did whatever I could to help that squadron out. I wasn't the squadron commander at the time. But I remember thinking, “Man, I can't believe the squadron that I was going to go in is going to go without me.” But they did. And I helped. And I tried to be as much of a contributor as I could. And when they came back, I was all qualified. And then a couple of months after that, I took over the squadron. And then they tapped us to go again. And so, I got to deploy the squadron in combat over Iraq. We deployed to Oman and we flew missions at the beginning of OIF. And that was just an unbelievable experience, growth experience, leadership experience, but really, just something I'll never forget, you know, it was hard. It was tough. We're there for about six months. But leading in combat I think is something we all prepare for and want to be ready for. But it's also an honor, you know, to be able to have that kind of responsibility. And I think back on it, and my timing couldn't have been better for me to be able to do that. It was just a highlight of my career. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 26:31 Can we entice you to tell a quick war story about a Distinguished Flying Cross that you are awarded? Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 26:37 Oh, well, I could talk about that. Can I talk about a different story there? I have a better one, I do. This was one of my proudest moments I think I had as the squadron commander. I had to line up all the crews, you know, to put experience within experience and make sure that they were balanced out with the people that I knew, and who was going to perform the best. And I had 24 crews. They actually sent me extra crews from a different squadron to make sure that we had a full complement. And the last crew that I had were two of the most inexperienced people in our squadron. Two captains and two lieutenants. And one of them was a brand-new FAPE. Has just come from T-37s into the B-1. And I had to have 24 crews and they were the last four people. And I didn't really have another way to balance the experience and inexperience. So, I did it. And the flight commanders were like, “Don't do it. We can't send these guys out like that.” And I said, “We have to; they need to go. And so, on the second night, they went out they had 24 JDAM, 2,000 pound GPS bombs. And they started out. They orbited in the area, they did well. First they delivered their 12 bombs on-target, the direct targets from the ATO, and they hit those targets. And then they were orbiting, waiting for what we call it, x-cast, somebody to call in and say, “I need some bombs.” And our mantra in the squadron was whenever there's Americans on the ground, we're going to do whatever it takes to help them. You will do whatever it takes. And so, they're orbiting, and they're about at bingo fuel in there, meaning the fuel that they needed to go back, and they get a radio call from an AWAC. There's troops in contact and they need some air power. So, they give this crew, the aircraft commander, this young FAPE goes, “Well, we're close to bingo, but we're not there yet. So, give us the coordinates and give us the radio frequency,” and they fly. And they get this JTAC — joint tactical air control — on the ground. And he's like, “We're getting shelled from a ridgeline. There's Iraqi armored vehicles, they're hitting us hard. We need some bombs. We got 150 soldiers down here, can you give us some bombs.” He's like, “Got it, give us the coordinates.” So, they start getting a nine-line there. They're loading the coordinates, and the “Wizzo” is just putting the bombs, you know, he starts putting them on target. Boom, boom, one at a time. And they get the coordinates, bomb on target. But then they hit bingo. And so the aircraft commander tells the JTAC, “Hey, we're at bingo fuel, we need to get going or we're not going to be able to get back home. But we'll get somebody else out here.” And the JTAC says, “If you leave us now, we're going to get pummeled. Can you stay a little longer?” He says, “We'll stay as long as you want.” And so, they keep putting bombs on target. And they keep putting them down until they went Winchester and the JTAC says, “Hey, the shelling stopped. You guys are cleared out.” And when they turn their nose to go home, they didn't have enough fuel to get back. And so, they get on with AWACS and they're talking to AWACS trying to figure something out. They're looking at divert. Field diverting into a field in Iraq is not a good idea. But finally, a KC-135 flies into the country, into Iraq, unarmed, unafraid, gives them gas and then those guys can come home. And when they got back, they were three hours past their estimated arrival time. And I met him at the airplane because I'm going, “What happened?” And when the aircraft commander comes down the ladder, he's got salt stains on his back. They were working hard. I said, “What happened? He goes, “Sir, we overflew our bingo.” I said, “Well, certainly there's more to it than that.” And so, we go into the intel debrief and they told that story. And all of those, that whole crew, was awarded Distinguished Flying Crosses for what they did. And so that of all the things that happened, to see those young guys go out there and do that, and do what they needed to do to help other Americans, to help their fellow servicemen, that made me prouder than anything, Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 30:44 I guess it would. And you took a chance, in a way, by putting this crew together. Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 30:49 I did. Yeah. As far as I was concerned, I didn't have a choice, you know, but I had to trust them to do their job. And they were trained. I mean, they had received the training that was required for them to go to combat, so we have to trust them to do it. And they did it. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 31:05 Well, that's a really cool story. And if my math is right, you are about 15-16 years into your career at that time. Let me shift gears a little bit. How much thought did you give to staying in touch with or staying engaged with the Air Force Academy while you were out? You know, developing your career path. Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 31:33 I gave a lot of thought to it. I used to come back for football games. I came back for my reunions for sure. And I don't think financially at that point, I hadn't gotten involved. But a couple years later, when our class, our 20th reunion was starting, that's when I really started realizing financially I could and should start to give back to the Academy. So that was when I think from a financial point, I really connected and realized that. But just from a present standpoint and coming back, I came back at every opportunity. I came back for games; I came back for some mentorship opportunities that people asked me to come talk to cadets and things like that. But I never thought I would get to come back here to work. You know, it never crossed my mind until someone asked me to be the commandant years later. And that was like beyond imagination for me, especially knowing what kind of cadet I was. I was like, “OK, you really want me to be the commandant? I don't think so.” But I got that opportunity down the road. I mean, that was after a lot. I went on to be a wing commander, you mentioned I was the wing commander. At 12th Flying Training Wing, I got to fly all the trainers and that was just awesome. And then I deployed to Iraq for a year, which was an intense year, hard year, I would say probably the hardest year I've had, you know, in my career. And then I got promoted to one star. And they sent me to Barksdale Air Force Base as the vice commander of 8th Air Force. And when I came back from Iraq, I knew I'd gotten promoted. And that job was kind of roundabout. They said, “Hey, we're gonna' send you to Barksdale to be the vice at 8th. But that job is actually going to be downgraded to a colonel and you're about to pin on one star. So we're not sure what's going to happen with you next.” I was like, “Oh, man,” trying to remember the lessons of the past though. I said, “OK. This is where I'm going so let's bloom where I'm planted,” right? So, we all move there. Things were great. And then I remember the MATCOM commander called me in one day and he goes, “You know…, they get the phone call from the secretary. I'm gonna', one, I'm a newly pinned on one star. And he goes, “Hey, you know that job you're in is a colonel job?” And I was like, “Yes, sir, I know. But I love it.” You know, I was being positive. He says, “But we're gonna' have to move you out of there.” “Yes sir. Understood.” And he goes, “What would you think about going to the Air Force Academy and be the commandant?” You could have knocked me over with a feather. And that's when you and I first connected, when I got to come be your commandant when you were the supt. And that was just a dream to be able to come back here and that's when I really connected back, you know, when I got a chance to see it, even from a different level. I talked about it as a coach you know, and seeing how special it is and seeing how passionate people are about our school. But being the commandant gave me a whole different view and being able to engage with the cadets and understand what they were doing and trying to push that development for them. Just amazing and I loved it, and Amy loved it, to live in the Otis House, having the cadets over, trying to help them with their, you know, their development. And that's a big job, right? We all know that because you take it very personally, because you want them to be everything that they can be in there. So amazingly talented. You just want to take that talent and give them every opportunity you can to thrive. So, we did that. And after that, even Amy, she might as well be a grad. I mean, she just fell in love with this place after those two years. Our kids, Milo and Zoey, they were 10 and 8 coming in. Our family just was immersed in USAFA. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 35:40 So, I was going to ask you about the role that Amy and the kids played in your development as a leader, but I got to see it firsthand. And you just went through that. When you had to leave the Academy, if you can remember, I'm sure you do remember this, I wanted to keep you here for a third year. Because you were that perfect role model in so many ways for the cadets. Not only your leadership, you know, in the job, but your family and the way these kids could then look up and say, “I want to do that someday. I think I can be like that guy.” And we wanted to keep you another year and then you came out on the two-star list and you moved on to what was undoubtedly a really, really tough assignment as the DAT and senior guy in Cairo. Tell us about that little bit. Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 36:30 Yeah, well, if you remember at first they told me I was going to the Pentagon to be the 8th, which was like the big job. If you're a two-star, you go there, the 8th as the programmer. And Amy loves D.C. And so, they told us we were going there. And then I get a phone call from then-Chief of Staff Gen. Schwartz, actually, he called and said, “Hey, I need you to talk to the GAO management office, the GoMo, who do all the assignments for the general.” And I was like, “Oh, yes, sir. Is there a problem?” And I think you might have known about that — you probably knew about this already. Because it was bad news, I think he wanted to tell me personally or something. And so, I called GoMo. And they go, “Yeah, your assignment's changed. You're not going to the Pentagon, you're going to Egypt.” And I go, “Is there a base in Egypt?” They're like, “No, you're gonna' be working at the embassy as the DET.” And I was like, “Ah, OK. All right. That's good.” And so, then the first thing that came to my mind was telling me, I was like, “Oh man, she's gonna' flip out.” Well, I called her. And I said, “Honey, we're not going to D.C.” And here's the thing. Our movers were already in route, like, they were coming to pack us out. And I said, “We're not going to D.C., we're going to Egypt.” I was bracing for impact. And she goes, “Oh my gosh, are you kidding me? That's amazing.” I was like, she couldn't care less about what job I had, she couldn't care less that I was giving up like the best job to target. She was just looking for that adventure of Egypt. And that actually took a lot of heat off me. Because if she's happy, I'm happy. And so, we went to Egypt. And it actually turned out to be great. But we got truncated on the training. Like, you're supposed to get language school, you're supposed to go through this whole defense attaché course. And I didn't have time because it was a late breaking change. And they said, “Don't worry, you don't need all that training because Egypt's on skids.” That was the exact words of the guy that that told me I was getting a job. And he meant Egypt is in a good place. You know, they just elected a new president, democratically elected, and everything's good. Well, when we got there, I got to the airport and we're all sitting in the lounge at the airport, and I picked up a newspaper, and it was in English. And it said that day, the president fired all the military, all the top military leaders. I was like, I guess we're not on skids anymore. And it just went downhill from there. I was there for a month, and they attacked the embassy. And then a year later, the coup happened. Amy and the kids and all the families within the embassy had to go home. It was an order departure. They all had to leave. I remember telling Amy because I was in the meeting with the ambassador when all this happened. And I said “Hey, you might want to pack a bag because I think you're about to go.” She's like, “Pack a bag?” I said, “You can only pack a carry on.” “How long are we going to be gone?” “I don't know.” And they left and they went to D.C. And we had no idea. They ended up being gone for nine months. The kids started school and everything. Well, there was two thirds of the embassy stayed, but it was actually, from a professional standpoint, awesome. To be involved, often to be our representative on the military side, to work with the Egyptian military to try to help navigate through this coup d'état. And they're a country that we were very interested in keeping as a partner. I got a lot of good experience and just cool, like, opportunities to do things. It was a little scary at times, but I actually loved it. And then Amy and the kids came back. We look at that as one of our best assignments as a family. It was just — the Egyptian people are amazing. The travel that we got to do was incredible. And I just loved the assignment, and it goes back, you know, I mentioned to you, sometimes you get an assignment and you're like, “Gosh, what?” And it turns out to be the best thing ever. And that was one of them. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 40:50 And I thought for sure, somewhere in there, you were gonna' say you called your mom. Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 40:57 Then I was married, so then I just had to stop calling my mom after that. Well, I still call her but not for advice. I gotta' call Amy, so, you know? Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 41:06 Well, you had a couple more really challenging assignments. But let's talk about your time as superintendent. Not too many people think that you'll grow up someday and have that type of responsibility. And then when you get here, you realize that it's probably one of the most heavily scrutinized positions you can have in the Air Force. Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 41:26 That's an understatement. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 41:29 We can both agree on this. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 41:34 But other than the general leadership and the experiences you have throughout your career, this place is different. USAFA is different than any other command, and in many ways more challenging, because you just hadn't had that experience. How do you reflect back on your time as superintendent and the fact that you you've worked through, I think you had two presidents, two commander in chiefs, you had a couple different secretaries, and they all have guidance that comes to you. But your job then is to make that guidance into your own policy. How have you dealt with all that? Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 42:14 You know, honestly, all of us military members are — our job is to make the commander in chief's policy our policy, and to execute that policy. That's our oath. And that's what we do. And so, you know, for me, I feel like we've all done that. I mean, we've all at some point in our careers had to say, you know, “This is the law of the land.” I mean, I'm gonna' follow my oath to the Constitution, support and defend. And that's a part of it. So, in that aspect, you saw it was no different. But like you said, it's such a, I don't know, everybody has an idea. Everybody thinks they can run the Air Force. Everybody thinks that it should flow along their ideological lines, or whatever. And, frankly, it's about our country's policies that we have to abide by. But the one thing that doesn't change is our mission. And our mission is to develop lieutenants that are leaders of character that are ready to go out and win our wars, and that are ready to go out, support, defend the Constitution. That's it. And the policy things that people get so hung up on, sometimes they're really on the periphery, and they're not as entrenched. And what we do as people might think are — our core mission has never changed. There are some nuances, there's some things that might change a little bit, society changes. Young people change, you know, people that are 18 to 24. It's a pretty volatile group, in a way, and they change with society, too. So, we have to tweak and adjust based on our superiors, you know, people in the Pentagon and OSD and our president. We have to change based on society, and who we have coming into the Air Force Academy. And frankly, parents get a vote in this and the things that happen. And alumni always have a voice in this as well. They make their voice well known. But in the end, what it's my job to do is to make sure that our team is inoculated enough from all that, that we can continue to do our job and make sure that these warfighters are ready to go out and do what those lieutenants and those captains did for me as a squadron commander. That we're putting people out that are ready to go do that. And I always have in mind, like that story that I told you, Coach, it's always in the back of my mind. I hope that I'm developing people that are ready to go out and do what Those guys did that day. If our lieutenants are ready to fight like that, then we've succeeded. And that's my goal. I've never been a political person. But I get dragged into it all the time. And my job is to make sure that when I do get dragged into it, that we're still able to execute our mission, and that I don't drag the entirety of the Academy into it. And you know how it is. That's our job as leaders: to provide that top cover, and that shield, so that our people can do their job and produce those lieutenants that are going to go win wars. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 45:34 Well, that's a great attitude, and you've done it well. Tell me about your relationship with the Association of Graduates and Foundation? How have they contributed to your successes here at the Academy? And is there anything that the two organizations could do better? Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 45:52 Well, I will say, let me start off with, enormous support from the Foundation and the AOG. And it's hard for everyone to really know what kinds of things you guys do for us. But all you need to do is drive around the campus, right? And look at the North Commons area, look at our new hotel, look at our visitor center, that's coming up, look at the Cyber Innovation Center that's coming up, look at our football stadium that's getting built. All those things are either fully private or public-private, that the Foundation has to not only raise the money, but facilitate those things happening. And I would say that, nowadays, we're not going to have very much construction that's going to happen here or any growth that the Foundation isn't involved in. You're going to have to be involved in pretty much everything that we do, if we want to keep evolving as an Academy. And since I've been here, the Foundation has done that. And the Foundation and the AOG are only as strong as our alumni. And I guess I've always known that intuitively. But since I've been here, it is entrenched in me and I will always be a supporter of our Academy from a financial standpoint, from my time standpoint, but it's critical, not just for our Academy, but really for the product, those 1,000 lieutenants that we put out, they benefit enormously from the help that we get. And those are just the big things. Forget about all of the research opportunities, the travel opportunities, the opportunities to bring in guest speakers, NCLS, you know, the National Character and Leadership Symposium is NCLS. There's so many other things that people don't even know that only happened because someone was willing to put their resources behind our Academy. And so, you know, the Foundation makes that happen for us to AOG brings them in, but together, that support is just enormous. And, you know, I get a lot of compliments about people who they see — the visitors that we have coming through the Carlton House, you know, the supt. house — thousands of people that come through there: cadets, donors, dignitaries, all kinds of people. All that happens because of gift funds from the Foundation. We're able to represent our Academy in a way that people can't even understand. And that also, you know — there's a synergy from that and an exponential effect from us being able to do those kinds of things that most universities do. But the government doesn't always support those things because it's not in a funding line. But the Foundation helps us to make those things happen. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 48:45 Well, you've summed it up pretty well. Our goal is for the Association to be relevant in the lives of cadets through their time here at the Academy and onto their careers. So that eventually they follow into that continuum where they go to the Foundation and say, “How can I help?” And we're seeing that happen now. And it's nice to hear you recognize that it's been a factor in your time. We're close to running out of time here. Richard, let me ask you about your next big challenge, executive director of the College Football Playoff. This is exciting. What are your thoughts there? Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 49:19 So, I am enormously grateful and blessed to even have this job. I still kind of don't believe it. You know, because it's such a dream job. I'm going from one dream job to another, you know, but it's funny. What I'll say is, it came out of the blue. A search firm contacted me and I had some, I had known them because I was involved in another search for the Mountain West Conference to find our commissioner. And the people that ran the search knew me just because I was on that panel and everything. And the guy calls me one day. He goes “Hey, Rich, I heard you might be retiring soon. I think you mentioned to us would you be willing to put your name in the hat for the executive director of the CFP.” I was like, “Is that a trick question?” And so, he said, “Now you're the longshot candidate.” They wanted a nontraditional candidate on the, you know — they have 15 or 20 people that they're looking at, but they wanted a nontraditional. I was like, “Yeah, I'll do it.” I said, “Can I ask though, do I really have a shot at this?” He goes, “Yeah, everybody has a shot.” I'm like, “OK, so I got a shot. Let's do this.” And I did a phone interview, then I did a Zoom interview, then it was narrowed down to three and an in-person interview. And I got the job, and I couldn't believe it. But what's really interesting, the things that they liked about me, like, they asked me some questions like, “Do you have any media…?” They go, “Do you have any media experience?” I was like, “No.” “Do you have any experience in managing college athletic teams?” “No.” You know, “Do you have any experience and revenue generation?” “No.” I, you know, and I thought, “I'm just done.” But then they started asking me leadership questions and things that any of us in the military, we would all knock them out of the park. They are things that we've all lived and done things that I learned here, you know, at the Air Force Academy. They weren't hard questions; they were things that are second nature to us. The other thing that they liked was that I played football for four years. And being a student-athlete myself, they thought that that was a big benefit. So really, it goes right back to being here at the Academy and getting that job. And now I look at the challenges that it faces, then you just talked about all the scrutiny we get here as a superintendent. Yeah, I think I'm walking right into another job where I'm going to get scrutinized. It's going to the 12-team playoff, you know, this year. Last year, you know, number five team, everybody was all mad and lost their minds. And I think the committee did it right, though. Next year, it'll just be team 13 that's going to be mad. So, I'm ready, though. I'm excited about it. Amy's excited about it. We're going to move to Dallas, which is where the headquarters is. But I still am, you know, I'm sprinting to the finish in this job. So, I don't have a lot of time to think about it. But it's nice to know that I have another great job that I'm going to be able to flow into. I feel incredibly blessed by it. And just for the opportunity to continue to contribute to student success. And to be a part of that. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 52:32 That's a really good thought. And let me just ask you to close this out, Rich. Any parting thoughts to your team here at the Academy, to the cadets and to your teammates as you move on to your second career? Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 52:50 Well, first of all, and you know this, as much as I do, you know, as the supt, you know, you're at the head of the table, right? And you're trying to provide the top cover. But it's really so that all of the amazing teammates — we have the dean of faculty, the commandant, the athletic director, the prep school, airbase wing, just across the board. You know, all of those people in the flying training group too, even though they're not AETC, there's much of this character development effort that we have. But they're the ones that get the job done. And what makes the Air Force Academy so special is that everyone is so passionate about our cadets, and trying to help them to be ready to go out and do the things that we need them to do. That's what makes us special. It's also what makes it kind of hard, though. But I will take hard when people are passionate any day, you know? They just will do this mission and they will do it, whatever it takes to make it right. And to make sure that we're giving those cadets everything they deserve. I couldn't thank them enough from all of our senior leaders right on down to the, you know, the people in the trenches working in Mitchell Hall. You know, I just love this place because of the people that make it work and that make it go to our cadets. I'll be very honest, there's people that go, “What's wrong with this generation? They don't, you know, they're not patriotic; they're not athletic.” These people don't know what on Earth they're talking about. Come spend an hour, 30 minutes, with our cadets and you'll change your mind. These are the most incredible people. They are patriotic. They want to go serve. They might be different than we were. They might be different than you know, even the classes before us. But there is no lack of patriotism and them wanting to serve and them wanting to do great things and to reach their destiny. And they are every bit as much leaders of character as anybody, this generation. They're better. They're smarter, they're more athletic, they're more in touch with their world around them. I am very happy and comfortable to leave this torch with them, to hand the torch off to them. And I'm just proud to have served with them. And then just to everyone out there, all the supporters of the Academy, and we do have a lot, I just thank them, you know, for letting us do our job at helping us do our job and supporting this Academy. So, I am leaving with a lot of gratitude in my heart, just from our cadets from our permanent party, from the alumni that helped us do this and the other supporters. It just makes me feel good about our country, you know, people still care, people still want to serve and to go do great things. And this place exemplifies that, like no other. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 55:48 Rich, that gratitude goes both ways. We're awfully proud of you, Amy, Milo, Zoë, and we just thank you for your years of service and the leadership you've exhibited here at the Academy. You left a mark, trust me, and we wish you all the well in the future as you go on about, and please stay in touch. Thank you. Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 56:11 Thank you to the AOG and Foundation. And I'll say this, you know, I thank Amy because she's the one that was willing to go an extra four years because I could have retired as a three star when we started and she said, I'm in that passion from our time as commandant, she was like, “I'm in, let's do this.” And another four years wasn't easy for her. I'll be honest with you. She wants to live in her own house. She wants to… she started a new job. But she, she owned it. And she loves this Academy too. And I have to thank her and Milo and Zoë. They've just been my, that's my team. You know, I mean, in the end, you know, I thank God for them. I thank God for every opportunity. But I am just full of gratitude. So, thanks, Coach. Lt. Gen. Mike Gould 56:59 Well done. Thank you. Lt. Gen.Rich Clark, 21st superintendent of the United States Air Force Academy. Lt. Gen. Richard Clark 57:03 Thanks very much. Yeah, thank you. Announcer: 57:08 Thank you for listening to long blue leadership. If you enjoyed this episode, we encourage you to subscribe, share it with your family and friends and post it to your social channels. Long Blue Leadership is a production of the long blue line Podcast Network and presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation. The views and opinions of the guests and hosts do not necessarily reflect those of the United States Air Force, Air Force Academy, Academy Association and Foundation, its staff or management. The podcast drops every two weeks on Tuesday mornings. Subscribe to Long Blue Leadership on Apple podcasts, Spotify, tune in plus Alexa, and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on LinkedIn, Facebook, YouTube, and more for show announcements and updates and visit long blue leadership.org for past episodes and more long blue line podcast network programming KEYWORDS Air Force Academy, leadership, character, military career, pilot training, squadron command, Operation Iraqi Freedom, Lt. Gen. Richard Clark '86, superintendent, United States Air Force Academy, executive director, college football playoff, Association of Graduates, Foundation, leadership, character development, support, gratitude The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
As a child, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell '98, dreamt that one day she would defy gravity, taking her rightful place in the sky among the stars.----more---- SUMMARY Rochelle Kimbrell shared her journey of growing up as a young black girl in a small town in Colorado who dreamed of becoming a fighter pilot. Despite being told she couldn't or shouldn't pursue this goal, she developed a strong work ethic and passion for flying from a young age. She meticulously planned her path, gaining leadership experience in Civil Air Patrol and excelling academically to earn an appointment to the Air Force Academy. Kimbrell overcame challenges like failing a class by changing majors and learning from mistakes. As one of the first female fighter pilots, Kimbrell faced obstacles like lack of proper gear and medical issues. She discussed the difficulties of balancing pregnancy/motherhood with her flying career due to changing policies. After 13 years of active duty service, Kimbrell transitioned to the reserves and pursued public speaking and entrepreneurship. This allowed her to find fulfillment in empowering and mentoring others, especially young minorities. OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "My parents always feel this to just just go out and chase our dreams and follow our dreams, and, you know, to forge our own paths and to be strong." "I think we plan our vacations really well. But I don't think we plan our lives really well." "You've got to have a plan for your life. Like yes, you can change course 100%. But you've got to have first vision, so that you can start working towards it and figure out what it's going to take." "You learn that there are many paths that can lead there. And so it was it was okay. And that everybody's gonna have a setback." "I want to impact people's lives. I want to empower people to be their best selves." - Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell '89 SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK | LINKEDIN | TWITTER | EMAIL CHAPTERS 00:00: Introduction and Background 06:34: Overcoming Doubts and Breaking Barriers 25:43: Challenges Faced by Female Fighter Pilots 32:50: The Importance of Mentorship 49:33: Dare to Dream and Pursue Your Goals SOME TAKEAWAYS - Believe in yourself and pursue your dreams, even when others doubt you. - Having a plan and being willing to pivot can lead to unexpected opportunities. - Overcoming challenges and setbacks is part of the journey to success. - Representation matters - being a role model can inspire others to pursue their own dreams. Female fighter pilots faced challenges in terms of camaraderie, gear, and facilities. - Balancing motherhood and a career as a fighter pilot was challenging. - Mentorship is important, and mentors don't have to look like you. - It's important to dare to dream and pursue your goals, despite obstacles and failures. - Planning your life and having a clear vision of where you want to go is crucial. COL. KIMBRELL'S BIO Retired U.S. Air Force Lt. Col. Rochelle Kimbrell is a charismatic trailblazer whose road to becoming the US military's first Black female fighter pilot started when she was a little girl growing up in Parker, Colorado. She had a dream that was beyond the imagination of most. In a time before women were allowed to fly fighter aircraft and women being in combat was literally against the law, those boundaries were no deterrent for Rochelle. Powered by a dream, Rochelle crafted a plan to achieve this dream and the journey to success through failure took commitment. The story of her journey is legendary and can ignite a flame in any individual or team and challenge them to dare to dream again. Rochelle not only broke several glass ceilings in the F-16 community, her experiences transformed into operations on the ground and then on to the highly technological remotely piloted aircraft. Rochelle has over 2100 hours piloting military aircraft and over 975 combat and combat support hours. Rochelle retired from the Air Force in 2020 after almost 22 years of service. She is a full time public servant pouring her time and energy back into her community. She volunteers as an orientation pilot in the Civil Air Patrol, shares her story and teaches leadership and success principles to individuals and organizations across the country through her Dare To Dream (Dare-2-Dream.com) speaking platform and is also a full time mother to 2 amazing boys and wife to an awesome husband. - Copy credit: AthenasVoiceUSA.com CONNECT WITH ROCHELLE LINKEDIN | WEBSITE ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates! TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Our guest, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell '89 | Our host is Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz Col. Kimbrell, welcome to Long Blue Leadership and thank you for being here today. Rochelle Kimbrell Thank you so much, Naviere. That's an awesome intro and I'm really excited to here today talking with my alma mater. Naviere Walkewicz 00:49 That's right. Well, that's my pleasure. And you know, I think it's always especially wonderful when I get to speak to someone that I was at the Academy with at the same time. So, we're kind of going back in the day. And we can say that because, you know, we're amongst friends here. But this is a great opportunity to share with our listeners a little bit about you and your journey. So, we're really excited. Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 01:08 Awesome, excited to be here. Naviere Walkewicz 01:09 Well, let's go back in time a little bit. Let's go back to you as a little girl. Can you share a little bit with our listeners about where you grew up, what your family life was like? Take us on the journey. Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 01:21 Take you on the journey. All right. So absolutely. So, my family actually migrated here from Guyana in South America. So, my dad moved out here for college, went to Howard, and then he was getting his Ph.D. in Indiana — Purdue — when I was born. So, I'm the youngest of four. And we moved around a little bit, and then we ended up settling in Colorado. So, I actually grew up in Parker, which is only about an hour down the road, 45 minutes down the road from the Academy. And, you know, we grew up in a time where — Parker now is a thriving metropolis, but it was a really small horse town. Growing up where we were one of two Black families that I was aware of growing up, and I was the only Black person in my class from kindergarten all the way through graduation. So, it was an interesting time; it was an interesting town. But I'm an animal fanatic. I grew up showing horses and showing dogs and you know, when I tell people about where I grew up, and I talk about, you know, Parker had one stoplight and Main Street had a saloon with still saloon doors on it. We used to ride our horses down to the candy store, the Mountain Man Fruit and Candy store, and there was a hitching post outside. And people were like, “You're from Montana?” I'm like, “No, no, no, no, just up the road about 45 minutes.” So, a very different place back then. And my parents just being immigrants, you know, they knew that America was kind of the place where you come to make your dreams come true, the land of opportunity, they believed that you do it through education, and if you were educated, then you could go out and achieve whatever you wanted to. And so they always feel this — to just go out and chase our dreams and follow our dreams, and, you know, to forge our own paths and to be strong and to go for it, you know. They knew that they didn't have all the answers, but that they were out there, and that there was nothing that was stopping us other than ourselves. So, they always fostered that in us growing up, which I really appreciate. So, when I came out of left field with the crazy notion of being a fighter pilot, they had no idea. Military life? What that was like? What that was about? But they said, you know, go after it. You know, figure it out and go do. Naviere Walkewicz 03:47 That's amazing. I mean, it sounds like, just right from the get-go, you had such wonderful role models of not being afraid, right, and taking the chance at the dream and pursuing things that are greater and bigger and whatever we want to achieve. Maybe you can expand on that. Because from horses to fighter jets, you know, it's like, “Wait, that's a big leap.” Let's talk about how did you know that you wanted to become a fighter pilot. Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 04:11 So, from about kindergarten, I wanted to be an astronaut. And I was always just fascinated with space and the stars and the sky and weightlessness and speed and defying gravity. Like, it was all just really interesting to me. And I just wanted to be up there among the stars from day one. And so in kindergarten, I wrote away to NASA and asked, you know, what do I have to do - on that line paper - you know, and said, “How do I become an astronaut?” and they sent back a ginormous package of huge pamphlets and books and things that I never got all the way through. But, you know, kind of laying that process out of what that would look like and all the things that you can do and learn. And as I continue to learn about it, watch a little bit of it, learn you know what that was like, somewhere along the way I found out that not all astronauts get to go to space. I didn't want to do all that training and maybe not get picked, right? So, I think, you know, as I've dissected my life, I kind of go back and I think about, you know, being picked and maybe being, you know, that minority child not always being picked first. I think that was one of my stepping stones to saying, you know, if it really comes down to you've done all the training, and somebody still has to choose you, I wasn't confident that I would be chosen to go to space. So somewhere along the road I learned about fighter jets, you know. We had Academy kids that used to come down to our church, and they would sing over Christmas, and then they'd spend a couple of days with you, and then go back — our church had that program. So, over time I'd heard some of them talking about being fighter pilots, and I kind of probed him, you know, hid around the corner, and listened to what they're talking about — being, you know, fighter pilots. And I was like, “That sounds pretty cool, like fast and jets, and it's up there in the sky; you're still defying gravity. I want to do that.” And so that's where that kind of passion came from. And, you know, the animals were just, you know, animals are great companions. So, I think just growing up in the in those scenarios, they were comforting. It was challenging, it was fun. And I think it really is kind of along the same lines, you know, you kind of set your mind out and you're gonna go do something that's challenging, but it fills that need for you. And that's what flying became for me further into my life. Naviere Walkewicz 06:35 That helps explain the move from horses to the stars, and then into the cockpit of a fighter jet. So when you said your parents and your family was really supportive of you going to the Academy, did you know the Academy was the route you're gonna take? Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 06:49 Absolutely. So, once I decided I wanted to be a fighter pilot. My dad got me a flight lesson when I was 14, a discovery flight. And that just really sealed the deal. I mean, just being in control of a little Cessna up there, 14 years old, you know, you take off and the world is your oyster. It's a whole different perspective. It's just a different view of life in general. And that's how I feel about flying to this day. I love it. It's the ultimate freedom. It's amazing. So, from there, I kind of reverse engineered my life. I said, “How do I become a fighter pilot?” Because my parents didn't have the answers. And so I started asking the questions. And I really looked at it as this is the goal: to get to the Air Force Academy, because they had the most pilot training slots. So, I looked around, I didn't learn a lot about ROTC, I didn't learn a lot about it. Because I learned that they didn't have a lot of slots at the time. I never heard the word Reserve, I never really heard the word Guard. So that was interesting going forward — that there were other paths, but I didn't know about them. So I knew the Academy had the most pilot training slots. And I said, “OK, how do I get there? How do I get to the Academy?” You know, so you start reading and seeing things and it's good grades, you've got to be well rounded, and you've got to have leadership, sports, you've got to have all of these things. I'm like, “I don't know what this well-rounded thing means. But OK, good grades. I can do the good grades, I do good grades and try to figure out all the rest of the stuff.” I ended up joining Civil Air Patrol when I was in, I think, eighth grade. And that really just opened up a huge — it was really like a foot in the door for me because it was military-esque. You know, they're an auxiliary of the Air Force. So, you're wearing the uniform, you're doing the marching and lots of leadership opportunities. So, I actually ended up commanding the drill team and taking us to nationals and doing encampments up here at the Air Force Academy. So, we run the leadership reaction course before I even came here, you know, and it was that leg up that I needed for not having, you know, family, second generation, all that, it was the leg up that I really needed to crack the door and go, “OK, this is something that yeah, I could do this.” So, I got to have those leadership experiences. And I played sports. You know, all sorts of different sports. I did soccer and volleyball and ran track and ended up doing swimming so that I could pass basic swimming, those types of things. So it was really a well thought out chartered course, because I knew I wanted to go to the Academy. And I think that's something that I've tried to pass on to my kids is like, “You've got to have a plan for your life.” Like, “Yes, you can change course 100%. But you've got to have first vision, so that you can start working towards it and figure out what it's going to take.” I don't think that we spend enough time doing that sometimes. I think we plan our vacations really well. But I don't think we plan our lives really well. Naviere Walkewicz 09:42 I was just gonna say that sounds like a really good leadership nugget right there. I mean, honestly, when did you realize you — have you always been a planner or was that something as a kid that you've, you knew about yourself or just developed about yourself? Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 09:55 I would say that that was the first big plan that I created. And it was very intentional. The people that say, “Oh, I just, you know, showed up and I took a flight at the Academy and decided I wanted to go fly.” That's not how this worked for me. Like, I've been calling for this from day one. So yeah, absolutely. Naviere Walkewicz 10:20 You had said something about in Civil Air Patrol, you were leading, you took your team to nationals. I would love to learn more about what that leadership journey was. And the reason I asked that is because sometimes our listeners think, you know, “What does leadership look like? And if I've not been involved in something, can I still get to a leadership position in it?” You know, and so it sounds like you took that on. Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 10:40 So, I think as a young person, it's a little bit scary, because it's the first time that you're leading your peers, and trying to get people to do things that they don't necessarily want to do, because part of our competition was running. We played volleyball, and we drilled, you know, and it was voluntary, obviously, it's not, you know, to get in there and to go to the drill team. But it was really creating that camaraderie among the people that made them want to show up and want to show up at their best. And it was just kind of my first crack at getting to do that. And I think we were super successful in being able to create that environment that people wanted to be around where they got to be themselves and come out, and everybody had a strength and everybody had weaknesses, that we had to cover everybody, you know, and then we get to build them up. And you see that growth. And maybe at the time, I wouldn't say that I took that all in and knew what was, you know — that this is what was happening. But as I go back and dissect, I feel like that's where we got some of our successes is because the environment that we created was so fun, so welcoming, but we all were on a mission and we wanted to win. So, we had that vibe underneath that was driving us, but people could show up as themselves. So, it was pretty awesome. Naviere Walkewicz 11:56 I see that strength in you. Just the theme that it's kind of running through everything you're talking about is, you know, kind of finding a way and I think bringing others along with you — sounds like that's kind of where we're headed. So I really like that. Maybe let's talk about when you got into the Academy. What was that experience like? Did you get the letter? How did you find out? And what were your first reactions? Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 12:18 So, the only two places that I applied to were the Air Force Academy and the Naval Academy. My mom was like, “You should apply to MIT.” I don't know if they have a good pilot program, but they don't have the most pilot training slots.That was my plan and so I actually got accepted to the Naval Academy first, quite a while before I got accepted to the Air Force Academy. I ended up with a vice presidential nomination for the Academy for the Air Force Academy. And I waited. And I was really excited about the Naval Academy. I had been out to visit and it's a beautiful campus. And it would be super fun to go and learn how to crew and do things that I've never done. And I thought it'd be fun to do a summer on a boat. And I wanted to go away from home. So, it was really, yeah, it was really enticing to actually just say, “Yeah, I'm gonna go to the Naval Academy.” And then when I got that acceptance letter from the Air Force Academy, I was like, oh, OK, this is what it's always been about. And so I sat down and I made a list of where I wanted to go, and why I chose these two schools. And the Air Force Academy just came out with, this is what I was set out to do. These are the goals that I had, and this will fulfill all those goals. And that's probably what I should do, even though it's not away from home. And it's not, you know, and I was like, but that was the goal. So, I stepped foot in and it was awesome. I mean, it was everything that I thought it was gonna be, you know, a lot of people, not a lot, some people look back and wonder what they got themselves into when they show up here. And I knew exactly what I was getting myself into. I was excited about it. I had actually got to train with the PJs while I was in Civil Air Patrol. And that was way harder than basic training. So, when I showed up, I was like, “Oh, this is awesome.” People were like, “How do you know how to blouse your boots?” So, I'm like, “Because this was my plan.” I was like, “This was my plan all along.” And then you start asking people, “Why are you here?” Because you have all the different things right? There's other people that thought to be here and there's other people that showed up for they don't know why. And there's other people that were gonna just try it out. And so, you had the plethora, you had all of the… but I was one of those people. It's like this is where I have been fighting to get in from the time I was 14. Naviere Walkewicz 14:49 Obviously it shows that hard work pays off. And you know, one of the other things that stood out to me, she's [Col. Kimbrell] wearing a red blazer because she is Red Class and I did want to acknowledge the fact that I noticed so, you're welcome. Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 15:00 Awesome. Thank you. Dominate. Naviere Walkewicz 15:03 So, you know, I am doing my part, you know, as a Gold Class, you know, just paying homage. So, let's talk about time at the Academy, and you said it was everything you'd hoped it to be. Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 15:15 So it was, well, school was a little harder than I hoped it would be. The hope was that it would prepare me to go on to be a fighter pilot was the hope. And I think, you know, I just knew what I was getting myself into. So, there were no huge surprises, which I think was helpful as I walked through the journey. So, showing up doing basic — that was all well and good. The camaraderie that we built around that being, you know, Screaming Demons, and then, you know, going into the Killer Cobras. For my first two years, just a solid group of human beings. We had phenomenal upperclassmen, like, you know, just the greatest leadership team to teach us leadership and teach us exactly what I'm talking about. And that's probably where it solidified, was, you know, really working hard. You're working your tail off, but being part of something greater than yourself. And that was the first time I really learned about that piece of leadership, that it wasn't just about me going off to be a fighter pilot. But there's all this team building that has to happen in between. And that's kind of when that started to set in. And I think the Academy does that very well, in building teams and strong teams through challenge. So, I came in and, you know, did the things. It was a walk-on to the fencing team for a semester. And then I learned about falconry. And, you know, we only select four people from each class to be falconer just for their time here to take care of our mascots, to love them and just be amazing. And to go out and represent the school as well. And so, you know, my love of animals, it was perfect. And it was my kind of escape from when things did get crazy. I got to go down to the muse and play with the birds. And, you know, we brought our beloved Aurora here when she was just a little fledgling (with) fluffy feathers. So when I came back, 20 years later, she was still alive, and I got to see her and handle her. And it was awesome. So, I did that for my four years here, which afforded me lots of opportunities to go out and talk to high schools and do all kinds of different things. That's one thing I talked to people about, you know, going out and doing the hard things and getting in programs that are rigorous, make sure you have your outlet, make sure that you're taking care of yourself, whatever that looks like, you know, whether it's falconry or, whether it's you know, meditation or yoga, or whatever it is, make sure that you take that time to do that so that you can enjoy your experience, even though it's super challenging. Naviere Walkewicz 17:51 One of the questions I think some of our listeners have is, you know, your time as a cadet. While a lot of things, you expect them to be challenging, to have an outlet and such, you know, maybe you can share an example where it was a challenge that you had to overcome something or you learned something about yourself having to go through an experience a challenge. Can you share maybe a setback or something that helped you grow as a leader? Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 18:13 Definitely, I think, you know, failing or almost failing the class like that — that had never happened; it never occurred to me that it could happen. Um, you know, we all come in here, as you know, top rated top academics, you know, we've not always done things well. But we have surpassed many in our journey to get here. And I was always really good at math. It was something that I prided myself on being good at. And then I hit that Engineering Math 343 and it crushed my world. And so, I started out as an Engineering Mechanics major. And when that happened, they were like, “Well, you can take that again, or you can change your major.” And I was like, “I'll just change my major.” And that was kind of the first time that I had backed down from my plan. But I realized that there are many paths that could lead there. And so it was OK. And that everybody's gonna have a setback. So that was kind of the first big pill. I mean, not the first, but that's one that I definitely remember to this day that I had to swallow for myself. “Oh, I'm not gonna graduate with this degree that I thought I was gonna graduate with.” But it afforded more opportunities and different doors to open to find out, you know, that I really enjoyed doubly. So, I took a bunch of classes and so I got to branch out a little bit more than I would have been just being on the straight and narrow and not learning to pivot. And so, I think that was my first lesson in learning to pivot, which would suit me later on in my career for sure. Naviere Walkewicz 19:55 Now that's a great example. And I think that it's really, you know, good for people to hear that sometimes there are many ways we can get to an end goal. And just because the plan has to shift, that's absolutely OK. And that's life. Right? So, in the intro, we talked a bit about couldn't and shouldn't. So, let's kind of dive into that a little bit. Was that more after graduation? Would you say there were things even at the Academy that kind of followed that trajectory? Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 20:23 I think that was all the way from the time I was little, you know, when I was a little Black girl growing up in Parker, people thought I couldn't and shouldn't do a lot of things. And that really, I think, even from a really young age, that really became the fuel to part of who I became. Going against the grain was my norm, like it became my norm as I was growing up. And, you know, for our military history buffs, you would know that women weren't even allowed to fly fighters until '93. And I graduated high school in '94. So, starting at 14, it was not just a, “You shouldn't” it was, “It's against the law.” Like, I would tell people I'm going to be a fighter pilot. And [they'd] say, “Well, you can't.” And I would tell them, I was like, “Well, I'm young.” So that's either gonna change, or I'm gonna change it. Like, those were my words that came out to people starting very young. And fortunately, I didn't have to change it, it changed right at the cusp — right in the nick of time, it changed. But it also came with a lot of challenges. You know, I remember being in pilot training and flying out across country, somewhere in the middle of nowhere, Texas, and crawling out of the T-38. And the guy at the gas station at the, you know, the [place] where we fill up our airplanes saying, “They let you fly that?” And I was like, “They let you talk?” That's what I said. And because I was spicy when I was younger, you know, sometimes it wasn't, you know, the most appropriate way. But standing up for yourself and knowing that you deserved as much of an opportunity as the next person to give it your best. Naviere Walkewicz 22:11 I mean, there are so many lessons that we could just take from that just in general. I love that you said if there's not a way, I will find it or something to that… and you know, to that degree. Talk about that a little bit. So, when you went to pilot training, that path was afforded to you. But I'm sure it wasn't just like, “I want to be,” so it's done. Right? You had to work really hard. So talk about what some of that looked like, if you don't mind. Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 22:36 Um, so pilot training, whew, that was a, you know, I was thinking in my mind I was prepared because I had my pilot's license, you know? I knew that I could take off and land. But that happens. And once you start, once you get over the simulator process, and the ground part process of pilot training, everybody catches up to you in about two weeks — everybody's taking off and landing, like that was nothing special. So that was eye opening. I was like, “Oh, OK, I thought I had a leg up.” You know, it was the pace of learning and growth of going through what pilot training takes you to and just the professional process of training is fascinating. Like, it's very fascinating. If you sat back and you watched what you can learn in a year, when focused solely on, you know, two airplanes, you know, one airplane for six months, one airplane for another six months, and just what you need to do. You learn a lot, and I had a lot to learn, and it was rigorous. And it really took a team effort as far as study groups, and just learning how to study and those people who had family members, and were legacy pilots and legacy fighter pilots were, you know, you need those people in your group to just kind of help you decipher what it is, or I needed those people in my group to help me decipher what it was that I was reading and studying. So it was awesome. I had a great group of guys and gals initially in my class. And then once I split off to [T-38s] from that point, for many years, I was the only woman in my squadron that was flying, or in my group. Naviere Walkewicz 24:14 Well, can you talk about that a little bit, I think, you know, you said the only female. I was a “loggie,” so I was helping to load aircraft. And I did get, during ops Air Force, a ride in a F-16D model. So, I got to sit in the back seat. I'm like, “This is great.” But that was my extent beyond the soaring program at the Academy. So can you talk about what it's like being a female fighter pilot and some of the experiences that you had maybe that aren't glamorous that people don't know about, like maybe don't even know to ask or what that was like? I think it's, really unique for people to hear some of what had to be overcome so that things are now normal. Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 24:51 I mean, I think it was a lot of little things that we had to, or though I'll just say that I'll just talk from my perspective. I won't speak for all the female fighter pilots out there because we are all walked very different paths. So, I think for me, it was a lot of little things that you had to deal with on a day-to-day that didn't allow me to show up at my best necessarily every day because I was focusing on the wrong things based on kind of the surroundings and what I was walking into. You know, I kind of think about it as some — this is a recent analogy that I've kind of come up with —it's kind of like, if you were out in public and you walked into the men's restroom, right. And that's where you were supposed to be, but you didn't feel like you were supposed to be there. Right? And so that was very similar to the initial walking into, you know, the T-38 is a little bit different because we started out, and I think I want to say, we actually had a large class of women going into my 993 team down at Laughlin. I think there were six of us. But then everybody went off — my roommate went off to helicopters, and then everybody else went “heavies.” And I was the only one that went fighters so you kind of had camaraderie with those guys initially. And so going into 38s was not as big of a deal. I think it was more showing up at Luke, and going through our fighter training unit there FTU, at Luke, where that's the first time you meet some other people and then every squadron subsequent to that. And I know for now, I do know, for many of us female fighter pilots, the gear was an issue. So just not having sizes that fit, not having good relief systems on the airplanes that women could use. So instead of focusing on things like tactics, and you know, where I need to be in formation, what our target is, and where I am on my target, you know, sometimes you can think about, like, I really gotta go to the bathroom and there's nothing I'm gonna be able to do about it for the next two hours, which doesn't make a good teammate. When you're a four-ship, and one person is not in the game fully, right, that is something that you absolutely need to be in the game fully 100 percent, 100 percent of the mission, 100 percent of the time. And I think that some of those basic needs not being met didn't afford me to be fully present when I needed to be at times. You know, and then that kind of goes hand in hand with, you know, potential leak-causing medical issues further down the road of, you know, not hydrating when you're flying jets, which is key, like you have to be hydrated to pull nine Gs. And I know, I flew not hydrated many times because I was concerned about other things. So those are some of the things that I think on the leading edge of, “Yeah, let's get women in the cockpit and the fighters,” you know, for a lot of reasons. That's a great idea. But we needed to think about it as a community kind of. What does that require, you know, what, what differences, you know, physiologically, whatever it is, does that require? And have we addressed that before we invite people into this space and say, “Yeah, go be a fighter pilot.” You know, we all managed and we figured it out. And, you know, that's the resiliency, that's the tenaciousness, that's the, “We're gonna do this, you know, come hell or high water. That's what we're gonna do.” And I think that was the mentality like, “I'm allowed to be here, I'm going to do my best to make the grade. I've done the things I'm, you know, I've made the grade and training, there's no reason that I shouldn't be able to go do this,” right? And then there's the reality of, here's a few things we need to tweak. And we're many years away from fixing those problems. Some of that has been arranged, and or some of that has been solved now, and some of it is still being worked on, you know. And I think we've come a long way in the realm of pregnancy and having babies and having kids in the fighter community. You know, it's kind of on the leading edge of that, too. Naviere Walkewicz 29:16 You must be in my head. I was going to ask, you know, what it's like to be a fighter pilot and have children? Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 29:23 So, and that's, you know, that's challenging. It was very challenging. And I think, being on the leading edge, the commander's didn't necessarily know what to do with you. I was at a non-flying assignment when we chose — I say chose — but I use that word loosely, because I had asked, you know, if I was on a non-flying assignment, which meant I would have to go to a transition course in order to go back to the jet. And so, I got married while I was at the non-flying assignment. And I asked, “If I went to the transition course and then subsequently decided to have a child, what would that look like?” And my commander said, “Well, we don't have to give you another transition course.” So essentially what that means to everybody who, you know, just to make it perfectly clear, your flying career would be over if I chose to have a child. So that was the thought process at the time by some, not all, because it was very commander-dependent. It was very, you know, they had the power, so we chose to have my son before I went to the transition course. And the rules at the time were that you were allowed to PCS, they were allowed to PCS you three months after you had a baby. Well, I had an emergency C-section. And three months after I had a baby, I couldn't do a sit up, they were ready to PCS me back-to-back to go pull nine Gs. And I was trying to explain that to the guy at the assignments. And he's like, “But the book says…” and I'm like, “I understand what the book says. However, we've got to think outside the box here a little bit. And I'm gonna need a little bit of an extension here before I can go the course. So, I can do a sit up, maybe stand up, maybe just do some basic things aside from pulling nine Gs.” And so, I think it was six to seven months after having my son I ended up at my course. And I was in Italy with a 9-month-old, going back to the jet, which was crazy. I'm not sure that it was sane at all. I mean, I don't know, for those people who've had babies, and you know what the first two years of life is like with the amount of sleep that you get. And it doesn't matter how phenomenal your spouse is, if you're the mom, you're the mom, and you've still got duties that you have to perform, whether it's you know, child's hungry, there's only one person that can do something about that. So, it was interesting. And then, you know, the other part of that is support for your spouse, you know. We were one of the few people that had young kids showing up in Italy — he was the only guy and in the spouse's area, he had no support. With a 9-month-old in a foreign country, didn't speak the language. It was tough. It was challenging. Naviere Walkewicz 32:20 That is. And so how did you I mean, aside from we just got through it, you know, what were some of the things that you might share with others? Look back. How were you able to so maybe others can think about what that looks like? Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 32:36 We really did just get through it, right? We did, we leaned on each other, we, you know, went through some struggles there and, you know, I mean, I think, what I would tell people, you know, if they're thinking about whatever it is that you're going to actually go through in your life, right, and you're choosing a partner, you have understand each other's, you know, lives, and you have to be strong in your partnership to try and do something like this, you know, like, you'll talk to a lot of mil-to-mil families and the things that they've had to go through, and we weren't mil to mil, but you know, there's different things that you have to go through. So really having a partner that understands, and that you can figure things out and you're committed to each other even when it gets hard. I think, you know, because you can't necessarily always count on going into a new place and it being a certain kind of way. Right? You hope that you would have this type of support and that type of support. But having never seen the dynamic, they might not know how to have that type of support for you. So, it was a lot of opening new doors that people just kind of looked at us and didn't have any. We can't help you. We appreciate you. Naviere Walkewicz 34:02 I think just sharing that because I think a lot of times, people don't, you know, really think about, you know, what does that look like and sometimes it just looks like you just take a step forward and you open up a door and you kind of, you know, assess and you go forward. And I think that there's something to be said about just moving forward. And it sounds like that's what you did really well. And through communication and everything as well. Maybe you can share, were there any leaders along the way that kind of supported you or inspired you to kind of get through some of the difficult times whether they're in that as a new mom or just in your career in general? What did that kind of look like from an inspirational standpoint? Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 34:38 So, this was my struggle that I did not understand. And I really try to help young people and people up and coming and even people who are established in their careers, try to help them understand mentorship, because while we throw around the word “mentorship” a lot, we don't really talk about what does that really look like? And so along my career, I would hear “mentorship.” And I thought to myself, “I need to find another Black woman fighter pilot to help me figure out how to do this.” OK, well, when you are the first, there's nobody else out there to help you do that. And so I thought that I had to figure it out on my own and forge my own path, which made it harder for me. And part of that was self-imposed — 100 percent. But I didn't understand. So, as I got older in my career, and as I had, you know, gone through some trials and tribulations and I really sat down and I learned what mentorship was, I make sure that people understand three things about mentorship: You need to find somebody who sees you and the journey that you're on, and believes that you can do it. That's the first thing they need to be successful in wherever it is that you're trying to go. So, if I'm looking for a successful fighter pilot, they need to have been a successful fighter pilot. And that's what they need to be, right? I can't learn from a successful mechanic or a successful cook, or whatever. They need to be where you're trying to be successful. And then they need to be willing to take the time out of their own life to show you how to do it. Right? And if they're not those three things, then they're not a good mentor. But that doesn't mean they have to be the same color, creed, race, religion — none of that. That is not a factor. So, I was looking at all the wrong factors while looking for mentorship. And so, I really never had any solid mentors going through. Naviere Walkewicz 36:38 When did you realize that and like, at what point did that kind of shift the way you look at things or the way you, you know, continue to pursue your professional — whether both in the uniform or outside the uniform — career? Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 36:50 So, I realized that when I got around an outside organization that was not part of the military and I found true mentorship. And I think sometimes we're just in the military, we're very busy. And you have to pursue mentorship, right? It's not going to fall in your lap, it's not going to, you know, somebody may pass across your path and say, “I will mentor you if you want.” But if you don't pursue that, it's probably not going to happen, because that person is successful. They're busy, they're doing their thing. And you have to want their mentorship. And so, it wasn't until I was about to separate from active duty and go on to the Reserve that I started to understand what I had kind of missed. And I was like, “Oh, that's that mentorship thing that people have been talking about.” I mean, the word was around for the whole time. But the explanation and my understanding of it was not. Naviere Walkewicz 37:55 What a good time for that to come, though. Yes. And when you're at that crossroads. So how many years active did you do? 13? OK. And that's interesting, because some people will say, “Once you get to 10, just stay in.” And so that was a big decision for you. What led you to that? Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 38:12 So, it was looking around and saying, “You're 13 years, you have another seven years.” Seven years is a long time. And it's seven years of your life. And seven years of my life, like it's not just seven years, right? And so, I was looking at people 10 years ahead of me, and they were mostly airline pilots, or sim operators. I don't love the simulator. I don't want to operate the simulator, like, I mean, it has its place, its value, it's a valuable tool, but it was not my favorite place to be. So, I did not want to be a sim operator. And, you know, my joke to myself is that, you know, passengers on airlines don't like to go upside down. So, I don't think those are the planes I want to fly either, right? You know, they're, you know, a great career path, you know, but a lot of times as we transition, we look at the skill sets that we've learned. And that kind of easy-button is to just stay with the skill sets. We weren't because we spent, you know, a solid portion of our life, you know, 20 to 30 years learning that skill set. So that's what people would typically lean on. And being the outlier that I am, you know, a strange human being that I've come to be, you know, against the grain. That's not what I wanted to do. I wanted to have impact in other people's lives in a different way. And I was searching for something that I didn't necessarily know. And so, I was able to find it. So I was really excited about that, which really changed my whole trajectory of how I make decisions, why I make decisions. I really dissected things that I had done and what had made me successful in my career to a point, what was holding me back what had held me back from being, you know, from reaching the ranks, which is what some people would consider more success. And how do I want to live? You know, once you become a mom, in my opinion, your priorities change. It wasn't about me and my freedom and flying jets. And it's amazing, and it's awesome. And it's fun, and I love it. And living the fighter pilot life, it was, “I gotta build a life for these kids too,” you know, for my two boys, and I have to be a person that I need to be my boys' hero. Right? So, the rest of the world, you know, they're wishy washy, take it or leave it, you know. Some people are gonna love you, some people are gonna hate you, that's fine. But I need to be my boys' hero. I'm the only person that can be their mom in their life. And I needed to be that. Naviere Walkewicz 41:05 I really appreciate that. I mean, I'm going back to something you said earlier about, everyone has an individual experience and it shapes them in different ways. And you can't say just because this person had this, others will have this. But I think what you just said really strikes home, because sometimes the biggest decisions we make really don't depend on others — it depends on where we are and what we want to do and who we want to be. So, who did you want to be, in addition to being there for your boys, like you want to be their hero? What did that translate to for you on the outside of military service? Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 41:38 So that translated into, you know, being really a mentor. I wanted to have impact in other's lives. And I realized that sometimes that's going to translate individually to helping people individually. But when you really dive into people's lives — that they actually want mentorship, that actually want change — that's powerful. And that changes families. That changes generations. So I've been able to start working with people on that level. Naviere Walkewicz 42:21 So it sounds like you made a pretty big leap from, you said, you went to the Reserve, so you had the ability to continue to serve and you know, and then retire in 2020. But you invested in yourself in an entrepreneurial way. And I'm sure there were trials and tribulations and that, in itself, right, because, you know, you have a message to share? And what was that journey like? And how do people who are thinking about something like that do it successfully from what you've learned? Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 42:48 Yeah so I think, you know, really, it is learning your own self-worth. And then not allowing yourself to settle for anything less than that, knowing that you have value to add. And if you are not being treated that way, if you are not able to give your full self in the way that you want to, then maybe, you know, you have to look at it and say, “Is there a better way that I can use this one life that I was given?” And are there other people that need to hear your story, and so part of it was transitioning into speaking, because I learned that I had more value than just being a fighter pilot, right? I think that we are all normal people. And some people choose to do extraordinary things, right. But we're all just people. And anybody's capable of doing something extraordinary if they choose themselves. And so, I really had to unpack that in myself and say, I know when I talk to high schoolers, when I talk to young Black girls, when I talk to any minority, they get excited about possibilities for themselves. And there is value in helping people get excited about possibilities for themselves. Because they get out of their own way. They get out of listening to people who've told them that they only belong in a certain area, certain place, a certain socioeconomic class, whatever it is, and they see possibility. And for me, I knew if there was somebody in the world who could do that for my boys, and they would see a speaker wherever they would see somebody and it brought on possibility for them of what they could do in their life and they didn't do it I would be frustrated. It would be like you're not living your value right. And so, I thought that of myself, I'm like, “If I can show one person that they have more possibility and they have more value than they've ever known that they had and it causes them to act, that's it.” Like, that's why I'm here on this Earth… Naviere Walkewicz 45:01 You're glowing because you're actually doing something you're so passionate about. I can tell that it really is to your core, you know, the part of your journey. It's wonderful to see when you have that ability to change someone's life, or it's more personal and it leads to, maybe, generational change. Can you share a story or maybe an example where you've had that happen with you and someone else? Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 45:23 So, there's a young man out in Oregon, and his name is Jeremiah Stroupe. And he's one of my mentors. Absolutely. And he has really helped me walk this journey, and has really helped me find the value and be able to communicate it a little bit better. And he has helped my husband and I communicate better. He has helped us get our marriage back on track, he's just helped us get our finances and just understand, like our true value, outside of what people think, right. And I've never been a big, “I worry about what people think.” But we are all a little bit programmed by society, by media by, especially with social media now, but by those things, and you have a tendency to react in different ways to what you are bombarded with. And so he really helps me to walk that line to be better, and to impact more. Because he was able to help me get my life on track in transition, you know, like we were talking about as I was transitioning out of the military, because that's a hard time for people. And do you walk into a space where now you get to be the rest of you, if you weren't that before. Like some people don't have to do that transition. But I feel like walking through the time frame that we have walking through the fighter pilot world, I feel like I had to be a little bit of a chameleon and transform some of who I fully was to assimilate, as opposed to be completely accepted as myself. And so now I get to be me. And that took me years to remember who that was, who that's grown into. And to be able to see my whole self and then be able to value my whole self and then be able to give my whole self — I'm still working on it. It's still a work in progress. I'll work on it till the day I die. But I really had to take a step back. And I realized how much of myself I had put away to do the mission. And so, you know, as people are coming up and they're making these hard decisions — and I would do it again because it's what I wanted to do. I wanted to fly jets, I did fly jets, it was amazing. I've crossed paths with some amazing wingmen, flight leads, leaders, leadership, you know, yeah, there's the people that you know, that you don't get along with. But all in all, it's been an amazing journey. But the walk back to self was a little bit shocking to me, as I kind of unpacked and moved on to the next phase. But it's been really freeing, too. So, it's been awesome. Naviere Walkewicz 48:33 I feel like time has flown by; there's so many good things we covered. Was there anything that I didn't ask you that you wanted to share with our listeners? Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 48:42 No, we did cover a lot of things. I mean, I think I really love to share that mentorship piece, because I think it's important for people to know that your mentors don't have to look like you, don't have to be like you. In fact, it's better if they're not. Naviere Walkewicz 48:55 I think that's a great message. I really do. And I think that really opens up — I mean, then it's almost like the whole world is your oyster. Really, you know what I mean? And so, I think that's a beautiful thing. Well, what we'd like to do is we'd like to share with our listeners key lessons they can take away around leadership. And I think we've heard some along the way, but if you had to boil it down, and they're thinking about Col. Kimbrell, Rochelle, what are some of the things you want to leave our listeners with when it comes to leadership? Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 49:21 I would just leave you with: Dare to dream, right? Because what you have in your heart is not necessarily what people are going to see you for, see you as. But it's OK. So dare to have that boldness about yourself, to dream what you want to dream about yourself and then to go after it. And there are going to be obstacles, understand there's going to be obstacles, there's going to be failures. You don't grow unless you fail. And you have to learn how to walk through those but you have to learn from your failures in order to grow from them. And don't be afraid of that. So, I just challenge people to dare to dream — it doesn't matter if you're 10 or if you're 80, there's still more life in you, you can still have another dream, and you can still go after it. And that's really my biggest challenge is a lot of ways to get to places. And I would say, plan your life. Take the time, like you would a 10-day vacation to figure out how you're going to get there. Where do you want to go? And how are you going to get there? And who do you want to take with you? Naviere Walkewicz 50:36 Thank you. So, may I just ask, what's your dream today? Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 50:41 My dream today is just to be impactful. I want to impact people's lives. I want to empower people to be their best selves. I want to raise good citizens with my two boys. And I want to live free. Naviere Walkewicz 51:00 Well, I think you're on your way because you inspired me today. So thank you for that. Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell 51:03 Thank you. Good to be here. Appreciate your time. Naviere Walkewicz 51:06 Definitely. Thank you. KEYWORDS fighter pilot, Air Force Academy, childhood, dreams, challenges, perseverance, role model, female fighter pilot, camaraderie, gear, facilities, motherhood, mentorship, transition, speaking, mentoring The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
A conversation with Maj. Julian “Cosmo” Gluck '12, a flyer with the heart of a pilot, the soul of a golden age aviator, and an insatiable yearning to learn. Why? In part to support developing leaders of tomorrow. ----more---- SUMMARY Major Julian "Cosmo" Gluck '12, shares his background and experiences in the Air Force and as a bomber pilot. He discusses his childhood, involvement in various activities, and his decision to join the military. Major Gluck also talks about his leadership roles at the Air Force Academy and the challenges he faced. He then delves into his experience flying B-52s and explains the difference between a pilot and an aviator. Finally, he clarifies the distinction between rated and non-rated officers. He discusses his involvement with the Order of Daedalians, a professional fellowship organization for military aviators. He also shares his experience transitioning to Harvard Business School and the Air Force Reserve and about the importance of leadership across different lanes. Julian reflects on what he has learned about himself and his future plans. He emphasizes the significance of giving back and volunteering, as well as the impact of the Air Force Academy and alumni involvement. OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "I would say the juxtaposition between the military lifestyle—which often is more regimented—and a desire to both give back and be creative. So these secondary and tertiary desires that I really wanted to have in my personal life and professional life to continue to self-actualize and feel comfortable were always at sort of a crossroads, but the Academy made that possible." "I think there is a lot of strength in knowing that you do not know something. And through my time in business school, there is a lot that I think many of those who are coming from civilian careers—that more directly relate to business—would think is just information that everyone is armed with that is absent for many of us who were not as directly involved in running for-profit organizations or who weren't involved in sales, investment banking, or any of these other careers." "I would say, I'm going to do a plug for the AOG: If there are things that you want your AOG to do, you are the person who can help facilitate that as well, just like I aim to, like many others. An alumni organization, a nonprofit, a charity is only as strong as its membership corps." "I think overall down the road, as long as I'm making a positive impact in my circle and in my community, that's the most important thing to me. Like, I don't want to give up the uniform. I've loved serving in the Air Force, and I'll stay in the Air Force Reserve—hopefully as long as they'll keep me—and it would be great to have more opportunities to lead again." "I would leave you with, if you have some time available, if there's money that you're seeking to donate, there is a cause that will resonate with you. Just go to the search engine of your choice, maybe it's Ask Jeeves … [or] go to Lycos—I think that was a search engine—in your Netscape Navigator. Go look up on AOL these interests, and you'll be able to find a charity that works for you.” - Maj. Julian "Cosmo" Gluck '12 SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK | LINKEDIN | TWITTER | EMAIL CHAPTERS 00:00: Introduction and Background 04:01: Childhood and Life Before the Academy 08:01: Leadership Roles at the Academy 14:53: Flying B-52s 19:50: Difference Between Rated and Non-Rated 21:30: The Order of Daedalians 26:14: Transitioning to Harvard Business School 30:06: Leadership Across Different Lanes 33:08: Learning About Oneself 37:15: Future Plans 40:10: Giving Back and Volunteering 42:37: The Air Force Academy and Alumni Involvement TAKEAWAYS FOR YOU - The Order of Daedalians is the professional fraternal order of military aviators and commemorates the service and valor of World War I pilots while providing fellowship for current and former flyers today. - Programs like the Civil Air Patrol—the civilian auxiliary of the Air Force—provide another avenue for service members, veterans, and civilians to give back in meaningful ways. - Transitioning from the military to civilian life can provide opportunities for strategic development and new ways to support organizations. - Leadership takes different forms in various contexts, from leading in the military to leading in the classroom. - Humility and the willingness to learn from others are important qualities for personal growth and effective leadership. - Giving back and volunteering in various organizations can provide a sense of fulfillment and make a positive impact in the community. - The Air Force Academy and alumni involvement play a significant role in shaping individuals and fostering a sense of pride and service. MAJ. GLUCK'S BIO Maj. Julian "Cosmo" Gluck is a reservist in the Defense Innovation Unit in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. He additionally serves as Chairman Emeritus of the Department of the Air Force Company Grade Officers' Council, supporting the 47,000 captains and lieutenants of the Air & Space Forces. Maj. Gluck grew up in LaGrange, Georgia and received his commission in 2012 as a Distinguished Graduate of the United States Air Force Academy. During his career he was selected as the 2018 Air Force Times Airman of the Year, received the 2019 Secretary of the Air Force Leadership Award, was named to the 2020 Forbes 30 Under 30, and chosen as one of the 2023 Ten Outstanding Young Americans by JCI USA. Prior to his current position, Maj. Gluck served on Air Combat Command staff; served as Aide-de-Camp to the Commander of Seventh Air Force; led 64 aircrew flight equipment and SERE personnel; and was Executive Officer for the Department of Defense's largest bomb group. He is an instructor pilot in the B-52H Stratofortress and is a graduate of Euro-NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training. Maj. Gluck flew combat missions in Operations INHERENT RESOLVE and FREEDOM'S SENTINEL out of Al Udeid Air Base, Qatar and has deployed in support of U.S. Indo-Pacific Command. MAJOR AWARDS AND DECORATIONS - Meritorious Service Medal with oak leaf cluster - Air Medal - Aerial Achievement Medal with oak leaf cluster - Air Force Commendation Medal with five oak leaf clusters - Air Force Achievement Medal with oak leaf cluster - German Armed Forces Badge for Military Proficiency in Gold PUBLICATIONS “Opening the Door to Cultural Understanding and Mutual Cooperation,” Journal of Indo-Pacific Affairs, June 2021 “The Gray Legion: Information Warfare Within Our Gates,” Journal of Strategic Security, December 2021 “Kasa-obake: A Spirited Case against Abandoning the U.S.-Japan Nuclear Umbrella,” On the Horizon, May 2022 “South Korea's Second Sight: Risks and Rewards for the ROK-US Alliance with Russia,” Issues & Insights, June 2023 PROFESSIONAL MEMBERSHIPS AND ASSOCIATIONS - British-American Project - Center for a New American Security - Council for the United States and Italy - Order of Daedalians - Pacific Forum CONNECT WITH JULIAN LINKEDIN | @JULIANRGLUCK ON INSTAGRAM ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates! TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Guest, Maj. Julian "Cosmo" Gluck '12 | Your Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz 00:01 My guest today is Maj. Julian “Cosmo” Gluck, USAFA Class of 2012 graduate of distinction based in Boston. He is currently serving in the Air Force Reserve in the Defense Innovation Unit and pursuing his MBA at the Harvard Business School. There is so much in Maj. Gluck's background that we'll just touch the surface for now. He flew B-52s for more than six years, and in 2023 he was named one of 10 outstanding young Americans, which puts him in the company of American presidents, statesmen and generals, including the Air Force Academy Association and Foundation's Gen. Mike Gould, Class of '76, who received the honor in 1985. In 2020, Maj. Gluck was named to Forbes 30 Under 30 list for law and policy. In 2018, he was named Air Force Times airman of the year. He is a published author, public speaker and contributor to international discourse on public policy, sharing his lessons in leadership with students in elementary school, at university, senior leaders in defense, nonprofits, and national level elected policymakers. We'll talk with Maj. Gluck about his work as a member of the Air Force Reserve, and how that relates to his membership in the Order of Daedalians, a fraternal organization founded after World War I comprised of aviators. He is a gregarious man of warmth, humility and humor, always willing to share what he knows with those aspiring to become aviators, lead or be better leaders, and always ready with an enthusiastic, “Howdy!” This should be a very enjoyable conversation. Joining us from Boston, Julian, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Maj. Julian Gluck '12 01:42 Well, I feel like I have to say howdy now, but I was gonna' say it anyway. So good to be here. Naviere Walkewicz 01:46 Howdy. So glad you're here with us today. Thank you for making the time. We are really excited to learn more about your thoughts on leadership. But as we like to, we want to kind of take a step back, rewind the time a little bit and learn about young Julian. Why don't we start there? Tell us about your childhood life before the Academy. Maj. Julian Gluck '12 02:06 Sure. So, I grew up all around primarily the southeastern United States. My dad's a pilot and was going through different positions. My mom's an occupational therapist. They had met in Texas, but I was born in Florida. And then over the course of my childhood, I lived in Florida, Tennessee, Maryland, South Carolina and Georgia, where I finished out elementary school, middle school and then high school. And when I was a kid, I was involved in a myriad of different activities. I really enjoyed acting and got the chance to co-star in a public broadcasting television show with the GPB, one of the stations back in Georgia. I did a little bit of entrepreneurship, starting a company when I was 14. I became involved in the Civil Air Patrol and high school wrestling, extemporaneous speech competitions. And with all the different activities going on, I wanted to continue on the tradition in my family of military service. Applied to the Air Force Academy. Thankfully, the “Zoo” let me in. And it's been a great time since. Naviere Walkewicz 03:04 Who were some of the influences in your life that kind of led you down that path. I know you mentioned, you know, your family has had many that have served. Are those who influenced you? Are there others maybe that you read or influenced you as well. Maj. Julian Gluck '12 03:16 The members of my family are the largest influence on my decision to join the military. I'm fifth generation. As you go through different lines in the family, people on both sides had served primarily in the United States and hearing their stories of both sacrifice of putting the organization over oneself, the service to country really resonated with me as a kid. And so I knew even when I was very young that I wanted to serve in the military, as well as a lot of the reading I did as a child, I would say. And then going through my time at the Academy was also very much a philosophical focus throughout. A lot of philosophy mixed in as well with the standard books that one would read as a kid. Naviere Walkewicz 04:01 Five generations. Would you say that it was destiny then to go into the military via the Air Force Academy or just the military in general? Or was it really intentional on your part? Maj. Julian Gluck '12 04:11 I think there were definitely some elements of the Academy being the destination. Now as far as Air Force Academy versus a few of the others, I would say lesser options with our rivals on the East Coast there. I wasn't initially sure which one I was going to apply to. And ultimately the Air Force Academy made the most sense to me, primarily because of the Academy's awesome record of placing people into really impactful, strategic roles later on. I like the emphasis on technology. And I think as well, having a Japanese program which only the Air Force Academy and maybe the Naval Academy had, I wanted to take Japanese classes, so that was something that was on my mind. Naviere Walkewicz 04:54 Did you take Japanese class? Maj. Julian Gluck '12 04:56 [Speaking Japanese here.] So, I did indeed study Japanese. It was my minor at the Academy, and sometimes really useful either in like bilateral track to diplomatic scenarios or ordering sushi at really nice restaurants. Naviere Walkewicz 05:16 I don't think I would be as successful. All I remember is [speaking Japanese here], which is, “Where is the bathroom.” Maj. Julian Gluck '12 05:22 That's really important. Naviere Walkewicz 05:26 So let's talk about the Academy. Maybe what were some of the roles in leadership you had? Or let's just talk about your Academy experience in general. Kind of set the stage for us. Maj. Julian Gluck '12 05:34 So, the first leadership role I ever had at the Academy was the Mitchell Hall Food Focus Committee. So, Doolie year, freshman year, I'm sitting in the SAR, the squadron assembly room — I'm not sure if the audience is all super-familiar with the acronyms or if they've changed over time — but I'm in the SAR, and they're like, “Hey, we have a volunteer opportunity.” And I'm just thinking in my mind, I've been at the Academy for a few weeks, this is my chance to be an impactful leader early on, and they just needed someone to test out the food at Mitchell Hall. I raised my hand really proudly. And over the course of the year, I gave my own attempt at food criticism to the excellent staff and Mitchell Hall trying to shape the meals cadets would have. Now, I'm not sure if I've had any jobs since then that is quite as impactful. I'm still trying to chase that incredible opportunity to rate how hard the cookies were, or that the chicken fillet sandwiches were pretty solid. But after that one, I would go into primarily roles that were focused on sort of command-oriented leadership, I was the first sergeant I believe, squadron superintendent for basic cadet training. I served on group staff a couple of times culminating as the Group Commander for Cadet Group 1, First Group, so I had a great time doing that. My summers were spent flying gliders, doing the SERE program when we still had CST, and as well as getting the chance to do an internship at the Senate. So, I was the one cadet that was sent there as sort of an interim military legislative assistant, and did basic another time, as well as the Director of Military Guidance Officers. Another role that I did through sophomore through first year was the Personal Ethics and Education Representative Program, the Peer Program, at a really good time. And I thought that it was really valuable getting to speak with cadets who are having troubles in their personal life, professional life, and really be able to help for more challenging issues, such as ones that may involve the law or medical needs. And then for ones that I felt like I could have a good handle on being able to practice my interpersonal communication and super useful later on in my career. Naviere Walkewicz 08:06 You held many leadership positions, and I'm sure there are many accolades that came with that. What were some of the challenges that you experienced in those positions? And how did you balance being a leader all the time with your own needs, and developing yourself? Maj. Julian Gluck '12 08:20 I would say the juxtaposition between the military lifestyle which often is more regimented, and a desire to both give back and be creative. So, these secondary and tertiary desires that I really wanted to have in my personal life and professional life continue to self-actualize and feel comfortable. We're always at sort of a crossroads. But the Academy thankfully made that possible. Now I did that at the expense of probably getting eight hours of sleep per night, maybe about half of that most of the time, and a lot of all-nighters, but I think there were some people who are just hardcore DGs and still got eight hours of sleep. I'm not one of those. I did not get a lot of it. But when I was there doing the cadet leadership jobs, I needed an outlet. So, for Doolie year, I acted with Blue Bards, I tried to relive a little bit of that child acting background and that was a lot of fun. We did Grease and 12 Angry Men. Then through both four degree year, all the way up through first year, and a little bit as a casual lieutenant, I sung with the In the Stairwell acapella group, and was a beatboxer and sung bass as well. And that was a phenomenal time getting to perform for the senior leaders that came in at the White House a couple times, and then later on getting to relive that as well as an alumnus at the America's Got Talent semifinals doing an exhibition before the then current crop of cadets just totally crushed it out there on the stage. So, I think throughout that time at the Academy, just being able to go, “Hey, I need to really focus on academics, I need I grow in my leadership capabilities.” But I also want creative things. And then community service-oriented things. And that was where I became involved with programs like the Knights of Columbus, when I was a cadet finding ways to give back and the local community and lead volunteer projects across the state of Colorado and then eventually, nationally, internationally. Naviere Walkewicz 10:20 I really appreciate you sharing that. Because I think sometimes there might be a misconception or a perception even that, you know, you can be a leader and you have to be really strict and focus and you can't really focus on other things that you're really passionate about, or you know, that bring joy as well. Right. So maybe you can't have both, but I really appreciate that you shared that you can. So, do you prefer beatboxing or bass? What does that sound like? Maj. Julian Gluck '12 10:44 Well, these days, so I recently joined the Harvard Business School acapella group, which is called Heard on the Street. And I'm still beatboxing. But I'm getting a little bit more into the singing part primarily because over the past 10 years, it's mostly been playing along with my guitar, and singing karaoke. So, I definitely enjoy beatboxing but I'm enjoying doing more singing these days as well. Naviere Walkewicz You're holding back on… Maj. Julian Gluck '12 Go to YouTube and see some old clips. I think I'll refrain from beatboxing on your… I haven't checked this mic to see if like a…. [Beatboxing] Naviere Walkewicz 11:25 So, that was amazing. No, I think that the mic came through fantastically. And no, that is wonderful. We really appreciate that. And again, it also plays into, you know, we really can be fully immersed in a lot of things, right? We don't have to just be down one lane when it comes to leadership and, you know, pursuing our dreams. So, let's talk a little bit about while you were in the military. You share that you flew B-52s for over six years. What was that experience like? And then I'm gonna' ask you a follow-on about flying because there's something as a non-flier, non-rated grad, I just have a question on so first, tell us about what it was like flying B-52. Maj. Julian Gluck '12 12:05 So, flying the B-52, aka the “Buff,” was a blast. It's a very challenging aircraft, I think, compared to many others in the inventory. It is an older platform. It's older than my father. And based on earlier versions that are older than both my parents, and probably many of the current cadets' grandparents. My grandfather, in fact, asked me when I told him I fly the B-52, “They're still flying those?” And I was like, “Indeed, Grandpa, and you enlisted in the Air Force after they'd already been in service.” But I can tell you, although they are up there in years, it's a very lethal platform. It's an effective platform. It's constantly being brought to the forefront of innovation through the incredible work that the tech community does, that the primes and other companies are able to leverage with different technologies as far as munitions, its radar capabilities, a lot of exciting changes with new engines that will be coming about for the next generation of bomber pilots. So, I enjoyed flying it. It definitely had its moments where it tested my limits. And I'm super grateful for the instructors and weapons school graduates who helped develop me from a young, very uncertain co-pilot to being a more adept, and I would say, empowered aviator, as I continued to like, become more comfortable, and eventually have the chance before I departed the community for other opportunities to instruct as well. Naviere Walkewicz 13:39 What were some of the challenges that you faced in that? Was it more just a level of comfort? Or was it other things? Maj. Julian Gluck '12 13:44 I think in the B-52, there's a wide range of different mission-sets that you need to be familiarized with. I mean, not only the nuclear deterrence mission, that is the Secretary of Defense's No. 1 priority, and extremely critical for our ability to deter and assure you also have the close air support mission, you see just a massive suite of different weapons, you need to be able to control an aircraft that has sometimes sluggish controls. And as you're powering through different regimes in the airplane, you also need to be not only taking care of your own aircraft, but if you're flying in formation, as a formation leader, mission leader or even a mission commander, you need to be able to have an awareness of all the other aircraft and players that are out there in the “kill box” or wherever you're operating. So, I think as we're moving up from co-pilot to aircraft commander and mission lead and eventually to instructor, the stakes become higher. The challenges as far as your knowledge set your situational awareness and task management increase. And thankfully with great instructors and those in more senior positions who believed in the opportunity to continue to progress, I had the just joy of a lifetime getting to fly the B-52. Particularly with my crew in 2016 to [2017], as a young co-pilot out in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan in operations Inherent Resolve and Freedom Sentinel. So, by far the most impactful, meaningful six months of my life, and that would not have been possible without the B-52 community. Naviere Walkewicz 15:29 That's really powerful. Thank you. One of the questions that's on my mind, and I think for others that maybe aren't in the aviation community — so, pilot versus aviator: Can you demystify this? Maj. Julian Gluck '12 15:40 Sure, I'll do my best. And I think it also depends on which branch, the terminology differs a little bit, I believe in the Navy particularly. But for the Air Force, I would normally think of an aviator as a rated individual who would either be a pilot, a weapons systems officer or navigator, a flight surgeon, others who have a set of wings on the officer side, and that take part in some aspect of the airplane. Pilots in particular are the ones normally controlling the aircraft as far as the movements of it, which you would normally think of as aviating — whereas like weapon system officers doing the navigating. Naviere Walkewicz 16:26 That is helpful. One of the things we do is we know we have a group of listeners that may not know some of our terms. So, can you explain the difference between rated and nonrated? Maj. Julian Gluck '12 16:35 I will do my best with that as well. So, a rated officer is a person who has gone through a formal technical training program that relates to the flying of a particular mission system. Whether that is an aircraft or a UAS, or remotely piloted aircraft. So, unmanned aerial system for UAS, so these individuals have on their service dress or mess dress or on their flight suit, a set of links that indicate that there's this particular skill set that was developed over time. And the rated aviators have particular requirements. As far as medical, in addition to their technical training, you have to make sure you're able to still fly. And they also have certain other personnel system requirements. So, when I think rated, I think of a person who is in the cockpit or on the airplane with a very specific job of like, an air battle manager is a rated aviator, who on different command control platforms, has a particular mission set with controlling battlespace, that's also considered rated. Naviere Walkewicz 17:48 We want to make sure that everyone feels able to connect with what you're sharing. So that was a fantastic… Maj. Julian Gluck '12 17:54 If there's anything wrong, just go to the comments. Just continue to like — increase the social media exposure by saying, “Cosmo, you're wrong!” And I'll make it. Naviere Walkewicz 18:03 No, that's perfect. Thank you. Well, before we kind of leave this topic of aviation, I'd really like to learn a little bit more about the Order of the Daedalians. Can you talk about this organization a bit? How did it come to be part of your life? I think that's just one that we're not all familiar with. Maj. Julian Gluck '12 18:20 The Order of Daedalians is a professional order of military aviators that was founded by World War I pilots around 1934. And these particular pilots wanted to start an organization that would commemorate the service that occurred, all the valor that took place in the skies for the Great War, and then afterward to be able to continue to interact with each other and then have a network of convivial interaction between them. But over time, the Order of the Daedalians, and through its charitable arm, the Daedalian Foundation, has grown into this organization for all military aviators of around 10,000. I believe in our current membership, and our organization not only helps connect aviators from the past and present, but also to continue to commemorate that service of the founders of the organization. We do scholarships to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars to help students in ROTC programs who wish to become military aviators. And we also have in addition to those academic scholarships, flight scholarships that teach people how to fly. We have a program that supports a Junior ROTC and awards program for different rated aviation training programs to celebrate the success and excellence of the students who are in there. So as the youngest member of the board of trustees, I'm grateful to get to learn from incredible senior leaders and general officers who have flown a variety of different aircraft. And I think it is a wonderful program for those who are still on active duty or in the Reserve as well as those who have separated or who are retired, who would like to continue to swap stories. There are a lot of fantastic speakers who come in and continue to contribute to the next generation of flyer while still paying homage or respect to those who came before us. Naviere Walkewicz 20:16 What's something that's been really personal to you that you've been proud to see the Order of the Daedalians take part in? Can you share maybe a more specific story? Maj. Julian Gluck '12 20:24 So, coming into the organization, I noticed that we had, and I will say this resonates with a lot of sort of Golden Age fraternal organizations like the Knights of Columbus and many others, a wealth of experience with our older members who are very dedicated. Perhaps they're fully retired from their jobs, they have a lot of time to give back, but not as many younger members who are coming in, particularly those who are still actively wearing the uniform and flying. So thankfully, with the support of the full-time professionals at the Order of Daedalians and our trustees and directors at the foundation and the order itself, we got together to discuss a lot of ways to innovate the organization to bring it into its next phase, particularly to help drive recruitment and retention with a lot of these potential younger members by having the opportunity to go to bases and really advocate that the order of the Order of the Daedalians is not only a force for good in that it's helping train new aviators, which is a critical need for the national security enterprise, but it's also a fantastic retention tool by providing a strong network of mentorship. So my hope is that a lot of the meetings that we had take place that focused on bringing everyone together, will eventually culminate in a desire for perhaps any listeners to this particular podcast, who go, “You know what, this is a historic program, I would like to volunteer or be a part of it and get to listen to some amazing stories, and then do my part to give back as well.” Naviere Walkewicz 21:59 Thank you for sharing that. And that really speaks very clearly to me. That's one of the things here at the Association that we're working to do as well, you know, really ignite our younger graduates into membership and participation and engagement. Well, let's shift gears a little bit from the world of aviation, you know, you talked about it as a cadet, you had kind of two facets that you're really interested in the creative side, and also the leadership side. Of course, they don't have to be mutually exclusive. Maybe you can talk about what it's like now to transition. You're at the Harvard Business School, you're an author, let's talk about this lane a little bit. Maj. Julian Gluck '12 22:35 So, I am super grateful to be a reservist. I had a really engaging time on active duty. It was fantastic for leadership development with some fantastic leaders over the years. But the wonderful thing about the Air Force is there's so many different ways to continue serving in uniform. One of my big interests, that was my desire to go back to school, and find other opportunities to support organizations, including the United States government, through ways that I thought were more focused on strategic development. Going to the Reserve, transitioning through the Palace Chase program, and going back to school has made all of that possible. So as a reservist, now I'm assigned to the Defense Innovation Unit, and the Office of the Secretary of Defense where we help with dual-use technologies, helping bring a lot of the technologists and founders leaders of different programs who have ideas that can support a range of portfolios for the Department of Defense, such as autonomy, AI, energy, human systems, bringing those together to help improve our DOD systems, particularly for a lot of these smaller companies that could use a lot of support. So that has been fantastic. I'm still very much in an embryonic stage within my Reserve service. There's a lot for me to learn. And as I'm going through this transition, it's been amazing getting to talk to reservists who've been there and done that. They've done the transition, and they're continuing to give back. It's not about the money for them. It's about a way to continue to give back to our United States military. And that's something it's really inspiring to me, and inspired me a lot when I was out in Korea as an aide and with all the reservists who would come in to be part of the chase and take time away from their families and from their busy jobs to suit up, you know, put on their flight suits, come out to Korea and really make a difference for our bilateral/multilateral organizations out there. So that's been fantastic. At Harvard, it's been a wonderful learning opportunity. I loved my time at the Academy. I wouldn't trade it for anything. It was the perfect undergrad experience for me. Now going through as a grad school student, I'm kind of getting to see that other side. I've got the more college dorm-style apartment even though I'm not living on campus. As you know, it's not quite hacky sack in the quad that I was imagining that college would be. But the range of different people who are members of the HBS Class of 2025 is so interesting, people from all around the world, very different backgrounds. I mean, of course, we have venture capitalists, consultants, bankers here, but there's also a very, I would say, engaged and interesting veteran group. And I really love hanging out with the other veterans who are in both my section and the class at large. In fact, one of the traditions that we started in my section is the veterans would all wear Hawaiian shirts on Fridays, and so I had to buy a lot more Hawaiian shirts, because I was never stationed at Hawaii, did not have a hardly any of them. And that's where I found this Air Force Academy, Hawaiian shirt. Naviere Walkewicz 25:55 So, that is outstanding. Maj. Julian Gluck '12 25:58 I don't think anyone else who's coming on your podcast is probably gonna' have one of these. So, yes, it's been really great at HBS. I'm learning a lot. I have two and a half more semesters left. And I'm excited for what comes next as well. Naviere Walkewicz 26:12 Well, let's dig into that a little bit. So, you went to the Academy, you had incredible opportunities to lead. You've done some of this in the Reserve. And then also, at Harvard, what does leadership look like across those different lanes? How have you seen leadership evolve, and how has it shaped you during this time? Maj. Julian Gluck '12 26:34 The opportunities I had to lead both at the Academy and on active duty, certainly inform and help bring different context and experience to the leadership opportunities I may have at school now or that I hope to have in the future. I will say there's a lot to learn to bring that into full realization as I continue through this transition from military to the civilian world. So as I look at like my experience as a flight commander for aircrew, flight equipment technicians, and SERE when I was at Barksdale, or getting to serve as a director of staff at Air Combat Command, and the A-3, a lot of those involved, be able to help our junior enlisted to be able to work with phenomenal senior non-commissioned officers how to help pass information up and down the chain to innovate, to go through a lot of the administrative challenges that are elements of bureaucracy and probably omnipresent no matter what sort of organization you're in. So those have been great. Now, at school, I would say a lot of the leadership could be leadership in the classroom. For me as someone not coming from Goldman Sachs or Bain, I have a lot of learning and followership I'm enjoying in the classroom right now is getting to really just taken a lot from all of the incredible experiences of my younger section mates and classmates who have had very relevant experience. And then the aspects of the veteran experience that also relate myself and many others in the veteran community who are students at my business school, and I'm sure at many of the other ones across the country in the world are able to relate to is also super-useful. So, I'm excited as I go into professional work, both this summer and after graduation, to be able to bring the gregariousness as described at the beginning to my next job and a lot of those fantastic opportunities to learn and serve in the military as I continue to grow and hopefully become a more effective cross-sector leader. Naviere Walkewicz 28:48 So, you talked about, you know, you have a lot to learn. What has been something you've learned about yourself so far in this journey, thinking about leadership and what our listeners are hoping to glean? You know, what's something you've learned about yourself weather as a follower, to your point, you know, how important is it to be a follower in the world of leadership, etc.? Maj. Julian Gluck '12 29:10 I think there's a lot of strength in knowing that you do not know something. And through my time in business school, there is a lot that I think many of those who are coming from civilian careers that more directly relate to business would think is just information that everyone is armed with. That is absent for many of us who were not as directly involved in running for profit organizations or who weren't involved in sales, investment banking or any of these other careers. So, during my time at HBS, I've definitely practiced the skill of humility. I have seen it in action with some of the challenging tests that I have taken so far over the past semester and a half and I'm learning about myself the sorts of activities that I really enjoy as I consider the kind of careers that are on the outside flying airplanes. And then going into, let's say consulting is a big leap. But there are also a lot of elements of that sort of leadership that are, I would say, at least are correlate with each other. And as I continue to figure out, what am I skilled at, what do I enjoy, and sometimes those aren't always aligned, I can reach out to mentors to classmates, to grads, in particular, I've reached out to a lot of grads who are out there in the civilian world to find out, ‘What do you recommend? How do I improve? How do I grow in this?' And I'm excited for the kind of development that I hope to see and that I will strive to really develop over the next year and a half and then many years ahead? Naviere Walkewicz 30:54 And has there been a tidbit of leadership from some of those mentors, you've reached out to in the graduate committee or across different lanes that have really impacted you? And if so, what would you share with the group? Maj. Julian Gluck '12 31:06 I would say, a lot of the grads I have spoken with that are maybe from like the '90s and 2000s, who have gone to business school or law school or medical school, have shared how much of an impact the military had on them. And where there are sometimes vacuums for that sort of selfless leadership and that aspect of giving back that are in uniform, that you really need something like that, to continue to really feel like you're giving it your all, and that you're in the right place - that you could be like, you could be making millions and millions of dollars. That is a story that was relayed to me by a former Air Force pilot. But if you are not finding a way to really do something for others, it may come across meaningless in many ways, like you can be happy on a yacht. I'm sure if anyone out there has got one, I'm happy to hop on sometime over spring break. But programs like the Civil Air Patrol to the Air Force Auxiliary, that giveaway for grads, who are perhaps still in uniform or out of uniform to continue to give back to do things such as domestic search and rescue, or helping mentor and teach middle school, high school and college students. Those are ways that like really connect you with service, that aren't full time jobs, that have less responsibility. I would say then continuing to serve in the Reserve and still allow a lot of different freedoms that maybe you want to experience that provide another shade of meaning that perhaps you're not getting in one full career. Naviere Walkewicz 32:44 And I think that's really meaningful for people to hear, right? I think, when you're looking at success, how you define success, certainly, there's an element of being able to have the freedom to do things that you want, that money brings. But there's also the fulfillment internally that comes from being part of or doing something bigger. So how much longer in your program? Maj. Julian Gluck '12 33:03 So, I've got two and a half semesters left. I'll graduate, God willing, or I think I remember from my four-degree days, and basically that 20, if you make it that far, like I heard that a lot. Naviere Walkewicz 33:16 All right, so May 2025. What's next, Julian? Maj. Julian Gluck '12 33:19 I'm not sure quite yet after graduation. This summer, I have a really phenomenal opportunity lined up to be a consultant with McKinsey & Company in their London office. So, this is the pre-LinkedIn update. I'll be at McKinsey this summer. I applied to a few other fellowships, and I'm interested in finding ways to continue to learn about these different sectors, how one can grow a company as well as an organization that is a not-for-profit, like most of my experience or within government service. After graduation, I hope to have continued opportunities over the decades to come to give back. Certainly interested in public service, as well as being able to develop different organizations. So, we'll see. But I'm definitely excited for this summer. And I think there's a lot that I have to learn with McKinsey just across the pond. Naviere Walkewicz 34:18 You're certainly no stranger to kind of putting everything into something and kind of seeing the benefits that come from that — all of the awards I went through beyond learning and seeing what's out there, what you just described, is there something else that you're like, at some point down the road, this is something I'm striving for? Maj. Julian Gluck '12 34:34 I think overall down the road, as long as I'm making a positive impact in my circle — and in my community — that's the most important thing to me. Like I don't want to give up the uniform. I've loved serving in the Air Force and I'll stay in the Air Force Reserve, hopefully as long as they'll keep me and it would be great to have more opportunities to lead again. Being a flight commander was immensely rewarding. I really loved working with the airmen and if I had other opportunities to lead more directly in the future, I'd love to do so. And hopefully continue to give back, serve other organizations and continue to volunteer at the local level and on up. Naviere Walkewicz 35:13 And you've had many different experiences in leadership. What are the one or two things you want to leave with the audience to take away from this from you? Maj. Julian Gluck '12 35:24 I would say and I'll plug sort of my company grade Officers Council message. I had a great time in CGSC as lieutenant and a captain and now serving as chairman emeritus for the department, Air Force CTOC. I would say that, for those who are still on active duty, wherever you're stationed, there is a fantastic place where you can serve your community and do your part. And for our grads, and retirees, no matter where you're at, there is a charity that would love to have you on their team. So, providing your time, your talents, your treasure to a variety of organizations, if you want to work with kids, there are fantastic charities out there that will help you mentor the next generation. If you want to support the elderly and those who've come before us. There are plenty of organizations as well. So, I would leave you with, if you have some time available, if there's money that you're seeking to donate, there is a cause that will resonate with you, just go to the search engine of your choice. Maybe it's Ask Jeeves and just put, you know, what I might have to check after this broadcast. Just making sure I said a different one, it would sound like maybe a sponsorship message, but go to Lycos I think that was a search engine in your Netscape Navigator, go look up on AOL, your interests, and you'll be able to find a charity that works for you. And for the other tidbit of leadership, if there is something that you are not good at, there are people who will help you who care about you, that will continue to take time to help you improve in that. And I'm finding that every day at HBS as I make my way through finance classes and accounting that there are classmates who know far more than me, are far smarter than me. And that can really help out. And I think that's the same in uniform, I got lots of help when I was a pilot in the B-52 and would never have made it through pilot training or the bomber schoolhouse in the FTP or many other programs without incredible support from peers and instructors. So that's what I'll leave. Naviere Walkewicz 37:32 Those are gifts of information that just keep giving in so many ways. So, thanks for sharing that. Well, we're at a point where I want to make sure that you had a chance to share everything that you would like to with our listeners. Was there anything I didn't ask you, or something that you really want to share when it comes to leadership? Maj. Julian Gluck '12 37:50 I would say, I'm gonna do a plug for the AOG. If there are things that you want your AOG to do, you are the person who can help facilitate that as well. Just like I aim to, like, many others, an alumni organization, a nonprofit, a charity is only as strong as its membership corps. So, as you continue to think about how you want the Air Force Academy to be a part of your life after graduation, if you're the kind of person that says, “Hey, I drove away from Arnold Hall or North Gate or South Gate with the chapel in my rearview mirror, and it's kind of the furthest thing from my memory at this point,” then, I urge you to consider the impact that the school had, whether it was the those icy days marching outside, or perhaps some of the more fond memories that you'll have of the Zoo. Not everything and everyone's cadet experience was perhaps what you hoped it would be. But all of us were shaped by that experience there. I love the Academy. I got a lot out of it. And I hope to continue to give back to it, whether it's through the AOG, or just being able to talk with the current crop of cadets, alumni and give back. We're either cadets or alumni of an incredible institution. And let's show those other service academies that the Air Force Academy is truly the premier military academy in the United States. Naviere Walkewicz 39:15 I can get behind that. That's outstanding. Thank you so much. So Julian, for our listeners. If anyone wants to get a hold of you, how would you suggest they do that? Maj. Julian Gluck '12 39:23 You'll probably find me surrounded by case studies at HBS. So just wake me up so I'll do some more studying. Other ways — you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm one of the only Julian Glucks. You can also find me on Instagram, it's JulianRGluck. If you put it without the “R”, it'll be one of those other Julian Glucks who's probably tired of people reaching out to him. So, I'm happy to talk with current cadets, grads and continue to build those bonds that we have as Zoomies. Naviere Walkewicz 39:54 Thank you so much for joining us today on Long Blue Leadership, Julian. It's been fantastic. Maj. Julian Gluck '12 39:58 Always happy to chat with you and anyone else from the glorious old Zoo so thank you very much Naviere Walkewicz 40:03 Thank you. KEYWORDS aviators, cadets, leadership, academy, volunteer, organization, continue, flying, Air Force Academy, Julian, Gluck, give, military, charity, opportunities, pilot, serve, learn, rated, fantastic, program, leader The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
To influence for good, character paired with strong leadership skills is paramount. Brig. Gen. (Ret.) Dana Born '83 brings the two together in Ep. 8 of Long Blue Leadership. ----more---- SUMMARY Brig. Gen. (Ret.) Dana Born discusses the importance of character and leadership in the Air Force Academy's mission. She shares her background and career, including her time as the Dean of Faculty at the Academy. The General reflects on her class reunion experience and the impact of her family's military background. She explores the concept of leaders being born vs. made and highlights the value of curiosity and courage in leadership. Gen. Born emphasizes the importance of seeking help and mentorship and shares recommended readings for developing leadership skills. OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "Character and leadership are paramount for Air Force Academy graduates to influence for good." "I think that if I were to say there's two really important takeaways, those for me have been, be curious, be more curious. And that is just really asking a lot of questions." "I think leading with your heart and leading with, like the recognition that things that are hard, make your heart rate go up. Courage, you know, our heart rate goes up when we're in danger physically, morally, psychologically. And I think leaning into that to where our heart rate goes up a little bit is how we learn and grow." "I think there's that keeping the both and in the integration of that is what helped me in some of those tough decisions. I mean, I remember having to take a security clearance away from a lieutenant colonel, for all the right reasons, but trying, you know, that person then was going to lose their position in the Air Force, because it required a security clearance. And, and it wasn't a situation that I put that person in, right, they put themselves in that position, but what I didn't want to do was deliver the news in a way that then the individual would feel like they have nothing left right to or would ultimately, you know, take their life, right, that always was present to say, uh, don't want this person to go away with anything other than, you know, your life is not over." "I think courage, you know, the root word of courage is heart. And I think leading with your heart and leading with, like the recognition that things that are hard, make your heart rate go up. Courage, you know, our heart rate goes up when we're in danger physically, morally, psychologically. And I think leaning into that to where our heart rate goes up a little bit is how we learn and grow." - Brig. Gen. (Ret.) Dana Born '83 SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK | LINKEDIN | TWITTER | EMAIL CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction: Character and Leadership 01:22 General Bourne's Background and Career 05:36 Early Life and Decision to Attend the Air Force Academy 08:19 Becoming the Dean of Faculty at the Air Force Academy 11:49 Challenges and Lessons as Dean 22:59 Discovering Leadership Abilities 24:24 Lessons from Friction Moments 26:19 Pivoting and Overcoming Challenges 27:49 Best Attributes of Leaders 29:46 Seeking Help and Mentorship 32:06 Balancing Compassion and Difficult Decisions 34:26 Family's Influence on Leadership 38:12 Developing Leadership Skills: Curiosity and Courage 40:04 Purpose and Passion 41:53 Recommended Readings 44:42 Conclusion GEN. BORN'S BIO Dana H. Born (Co-Director, Center for Public Leadership (CPL); Faculty Chair, Senior Executive Fellows (SEF) Program; Lecturer in Public Policy, Harvard Kennedy School of Government) is a retired Brigadier General with 30 years of service in the United States Air Force. Prior to coming to Harvard, from 2004-2013, she served two terms as the Dean of the Faculty at the United States Air Force Academy where she was also the Professor and Head of the Behavioral Sciences and Leadership Department. Previously, Dana served as an Exchange Officer with the Royal Australian Air Force, Assistant Director for Recruiting Research and Analysis for the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Force Management Policy), Deputy Chief of the Personnel Issues Team for the Department of the Air Force (DC/Staff Personnel), Aide and Speech Writer to the Secretary of the Air Force, Squadron Commander for 11th Mission Support Squadron at Bolling AFB, DC and in Afghanistan in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. A graduate with distinction of the United States Air Force Academy, Professor Born received her B.S. in Behavioral Sciences (1983), M.S. in Experimental Psychology from Trinity University, TX (1985), M.A. in Research Psychology from University of Melbourne (1991) and Doctorate in Industrial and Organizational Psychology from Penn State University (1994). She received Penn State University's Alumni Fellow Award (2012) and Distinguished Alumni Award (2018) and was awarded an Honorary Doctorate from Simmons College in Humane Administration (2007). Born is the recipient of the Secretary of the Air Force's Eugene M. Zuckert Award for Outstanding Management Achievement, Air Force Association's Hoyt S. Vandenberg Award for outstanding contributions to Aerospace education, Air Force Distinguished Service Medal, Legion of Merit and Defense Meritorious Service Medal. She has been honored with the Harvard Kennedy School (HKS) Annual Teaching Awards as well as the Harvard Kennedy School of Government Innovation in Teaching Award in 2017. Dr. Born is a Trustee on the United States Air Force Academy's Falcon Foundation – serving on the Strategy, Governance and Scholarship Committees; Supporting Director on the USAFA Endowment Board, Past President of the Massachusetts Women's Forum; Senior Consultant for the Core Leadership Institute; Peer Evaluator for the Higher Learning Commission; Member of the Women Corporate Directors, International Women's Forum and Council on Foreign Relations; Council Member on Boston Mayor's Pay Equity Workforce; Advisory Board Member for “With Honor;” and “A Child's Guide to War” documentary, “Blue Star Families,” Senior Officer for Mission: Readiness; Past-President of the American Psychological Association (Society for Military Psychology) and previous Independent Director on Board of the Apollo Education Group having served on Compensation, Audit and Special Litigation Committees. - Copy and image credit: Harvard University Gen. Born is a member of the HOW Conversations video (and podcast) series hosting team, bringing together a varied group of experts and leaders to discuss timely issues of our reshaped world through the lenses of moral leadership, principled decision-making, and values-based behavior. VIEW THE VIDEO SERIES | LISTEN TO THE PODCAST - Copy and image credit: Harvard University ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership is a production of the Long Blue Line Podcast Network, drops every two weeks on Tuesdays, and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates! FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Our guest, Brig. Gen. (Ret.) Dana Born '83 | Our host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz Gen. Dana Born 00:06 Through mentorship and wise counsel, in early days actually and magnified through the time at the Air Force Academy, that character is paramount. It's also not enough, because you want to be a person of strong character that also has leadership, qualities that help influence for good. We can have leadership where people are able to influence but maybe not for good. And we can have character but have people of great character that aren't able to mobilize the influence. And so, I have just been, I guess, embracing that character and leadership aspect of our mission. Naviere Walkewicz 01:19 My guest today is retired Brigadier General Dana Born, a 1983, graduate of the Air Force Academy. I'm excited to host this conversation with General Born, a recognized and widely respected expert in moral leadership, serving as a lecturer in public policy at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government. We're going to explore the trajectory of General Born's own development as a leader. Our conversation will begin with her days as a cadet at the Air Force Academy, where she received a Bachelor of Science degree in Behavioral Science and Leadership. General Born began building her body of work then, first as a student, then analyst and researcher, now writer, teacher and speaker on public policy and society in the field of moral leadership as a How Institute for Society Distinguished Fellow through her distinguished 30 year military career, and since her retirement from the Air Force in 2013, she has been formally recognized more than 20 times for her exemplary service and academic excellence. In 2004, she became the first female Academy graduate to return to her alma mater as the Dean of Faculty, a role she held for two terms. Her work has been published more than 40 times and she has delivered nearly 200 presentations. General Born has endorsed more than a dozen books on leadership and public policy, and has contributed to five others. In addition to her work at Harvard, she hosts a video podcast series called HOW Conversations during which she discusses the tenets of moral leadership. Her guests include nationally and internationally recognized leaders from the private, military and public sectors. General Born. Welcome, and thank you for being here today. Gen. Dana Born 02:54 Thank you so much for the wonderful introduction. And it's great to be in the Long Blue Line conversation with you and all our other members of our tremendous extended family in our Air Force. So glad to be here. Naviere Walkewicz 03:07 Thank you so much, ma'am. And you know, you recently were just here for a reunion. How was that experience? Gen. Dana Born 03:13 It was spectacular. The only way I can describe it is like going to see family members that you haven't seen for a while. And even after 44 years, since our induction day, it was like just picking up where, you know, we left off in terms of the connection, the common bond, it was probably better than I anticipated. And I can't actually explain why. But it was just so special. It was poignant as well, because certainly during those times, we spend time reflecting on those that are no longer with us. And it was very powerful in terms of the way that our class decided to do that with. We don't call it a yellow cap, right, because there's nothing yellow in the military, but with our gold caps. And classmate who remembered our fallen friend, and lit a candle on behalf of them. And it was too many hats. It was too many candles, it was too many people that we have lost. But it was something that was spectacular in another way because we had such great stories to share that sort of brought back you know, the legacy and the person of our classmates. And so I think we left with a little bit more spring in our step in terms of let's make our lives and the lives of those we love count each day. So it was really inspiring and quite an amazing time. Naviere Walkewicz 04:41 I love hearing that. I get to come back for my 25th next year and even though I'm, you know, here working in this capacity, there is something so special that's timeless. With graduates, when they come together, we really do just kind of pick up where we left off and so I'm looking forward to that as well. Gen. Dana Born 04:57 We got together with our what we call "dooley squadron," but you know, with our classes that we were with for the first two years, and then also with the last two years, because we transitioned after our three-degree year, and there was one individual that was in my, like, all four years together. And so that was kind of fun as well, yes. Naviere Walkewicz 05:18 What our listeners love to do is kind of get to know our speakers as well. So if we could travel back to maybe your childhood and early days before the Academy. We'd really like to get to know what Gen. Born was like back then, you know, where did you grow up? What were you like? What were you into? Maybe you can take us back. Gen. Dana Born 05:36 That's going back aways because I entered the Air Force Academy in 1979. So it really is going back decades here. But I grew up in a small town in upstate New York called Penn Yan. And, you know, we maybe had two or three thousand people. It was a very small town. If you think of Norman Rockwell, that is kind of, you know, the the old world, maybe even American Graffiti. That is my hometown. Everybody knows everybody pretty much still to this day. And I graduated from high school, the same day that I flew out to start basic training the next day. I literally didn't get to stay for my whole high school graduation. Because on the East Coast, graduations tend to be late June and of course, that's when basic Cadet training begins. So I hopped on a commercial airplane for the very first time, the day I graduated from high school. I flew airplanes before I drove a car. But I flew with my flight instructor actually to the nearest airport and then flew commercially, for the first time in my life, to go start basic training. I'd never been west of Ohio, and of course, people think about Ohio as the Midwest. So it was really going into a brave new world for me, certainly. Naviere Walkewicz 06:58 So, were you always someone very courageous looking at new things. I mean, you said you were flying before you got into a car. So that's a bit telling there. What are their characteristics? Would you say you had as a young girl? Gen. Dana Born 07:11 Yeah. I think that's, I wouldn't have characterized it actually as courageous. But I was certainly enjoyed adventure and the outdoors. I mean, some of my favorite activities. My dad was the vice president of a local college. And we grew up on a lake. So you know, waterskiing sailing, you know, boating, I loved to run, I love to fly, I love to ski. So there was that adventurous spirit. And certainly, I think that was part of the selection to go to the service academy. But it was also my dad, being a college professional and administrator, he took me to a college fair at the University of Vermont, I still remember this. And my dad had been enlisted in the Coast Guard, and right after World War Two, but he taught me how to salute. And I was always just kind of enamored with that part of his life. And I saw a Coast Guard Academy booth at this fair. And I got really excited. I went back to my father who was at his booth for his college and I said, "Dad, I know where I want to go, I want to go to the United States Coast Guard Academy." And then, when I applied, they said, "Oh, you missed the application date for this year, you'll have to come next year." And I was not wanting to wait to go to college. Right? I was ready. And so they said, well, there's these other academies. And I went back and talk to my track and cross country coach, and he did some exploration for me. And he said, "What about the Air Force Academy?" And I said, "Where is that?" And they said, "Colorado," and I thought, okay, skiing, mountains, you know, running. And that really was, it was his kind of helping me search through, okay, if this isn't an option, you know, what are your other options? And it turned out to be serendipity, just a very good fit and very grateful to this day, you know, for his mentorship. Naviere Walkewicz 09:07 Well, I was going to ask how the Air Force Academy came into the picture. And it was by chance from the US Coast Guard Academy timing being off. Gen. Dana Born 09:16 It was meant to be, I think, and, you know, I've had fun, you know, with over the years certainly while I was the dean working closely with the leadership at the Coast Guard Academy, you know, just kind of puns you know, they've changed their application date, I think to be more aligned now, but it was it was funny in talking with them about that, but it worked out really for the better. Well, you're also aware I have a mixed family in terms of you know, having Marine Corps and Air Force and Navy and Coast Guard. So we're all really in the same profession. Naviere Walkewicz 09:56 We went kind of back in the early childhood days, but you just about your family kind of having mixed roles in different services. What does that all look like? Gen. Dana Born 10:05 Yeah, I actually just recalled, as you were asking that question, I thank you for digging deeper there, because I forgot to mention Army as well and certainly my brother in law was a West Point graduate. Naviere Walkewicz 10:16 We did that for him. Gen. Dana Born 10:19 So appreciate that. You know, it's interesting, because I did not other than my dad's Coast Guard service really did not have a lot of military in my family. And but when I met my now husband, who is a Naval Academy graduate, when we were assigned to the Pentagon, it opened up a whole like military side of the family, because he does have a brother that went to VMI, one that went to West Point, he went to the Naval Academy, his father was a WWII aviator, who retired from the Navy. And so I and my family was primarily all educators, right? So I must say that it was providence, right, to get to the dean of the faculty position where I think it was keeping both sides of the family happy the educators as well as blended military service. And then of course, we have two daughters who are serving now, and one of them is 2020, graduate from the Air Force Academy, whose IP instructor pilot in helicopters and our youngest, who's a Naval Academy graduate who is in the Marine Corps now and just heading over to serve in Okinawa for three years as a comm. strat. officer in the Marine Expeditionary Forces. So we are certainly in a family business of of military service. Naviere Walkewicz 11:41 Ma'am, you just shared a little bit about your time at the Academy as dean, first female graduate to become dean and then you serve two terms. What was that like? Gen. Dana Born 11:50 It's interesting, that you asked that question and, of your, I know your own background in working a lot of issues, particularly women in leadership issues in diversity, equity inclusion, I find it actually paradoxical to think of myself as kind of the, you know, the first female dean because it is a fact, I'm just really grateful that we have a currently serving dean who's also a female. And it's interesting, because we just want to fit in, right, and just be the dean. And yet, if we don't say female dean, then we're invisible. And so it really is paradoxical. Anytime you're a minority of having a an adjective that caveats or clarifies, you know, that your your role. So I recognize that, but I'm really just so thrilled that I had the opportunity, and again, through a lot of mentors, encouraging and supporting through that journey, because I think I like many others, particularly women, take ourselves out of the running, because we haven't seen somebody go into that kind of an authority position before that look like us or are like us. So it was really people telling me, you know, don't you think it's your duty, you know, to offer to serve in that capacity, you know, why take yourself out of the running, if the Air Force thinks you're the right person at the right time, and you're willing to, then it's your duty to put your name in. And, and that was really the thinking that drew me to apply. And I'm really glad to have had that opportunity, not just for one term, but for to, and to see that, you know, there's more behind me that are more, you know, diverse, that is really good for our Academy. Naviere Walkewicz 13:36 I'm glad you brought that up, because I actually struggled in asking that question for the similar reasons of saying first female to do something and at the same time, having been walking in those paths, understanding that sometimes people need to see people who have walked in those shoes that look like them, etc. So I'm glad that you kind of talked about the importance of recognizing those things, even though at the same time we see ourselves as I'm the qualified person to be doing this. So I appreciate you showing that. Gen. Dana Born 14:01 It's hard to do though, too, because, you know, if you think about the generation of the first several classes to go through the academy, it was really a token time. I mean, I think we had 8.4% women that came in in our class. And so we didn't want to be seen as anything other than fitting in. And so it is hard for us also. And I remember when General Desjardins and I were serving together as the comm and the dean, right the first time you had two females in those two roles. And we had to kind of get over that. We had many conversations to say, hey, if the current population is wanting to have conversations, you know about women in the military, we need to have those conversations. Those are, you know, part of what we bring and it was and we had to listen a lot, right, because there was so much we didn't know about how the experience is similar and we're different for the now cadet, right, while we were in those positions. Naviere Walkewicz 15:03 And that was actually one of the questions I had, from your experiences as a cadet, the highs and lows. And then what did that look like for you in the role then if dean, how did that change your perspective? Or, you know, looking at how you improved things, or made a difference? Gen. Dana Born 15:17 I'm gonna go back to the highs and low question because the high was clearly meeting some of the most amazing, talented, diverse people that I had been exposed to, if you think about coming out of this small town, to the cadet wing that was twice the size, much more diverse representing countries around the world. I was, I was so in awe of look at who I'm here with, I was also very scared because we all got that, you know, warning that look left look, right, one, one or two of you aren't going to be there, right, at graduation. So it was a little, a little bit of a fire, right to say I better stay giving it my best, but I really think that's a high. And to this day, that's and even as the dean, it was always a wow moment to look around and see the incredible people that we got to be in the kind of common cause with and gave me great hope always for the future, both while I was a cadet and as the dean and now serving, you know, with the Air Force Academy Foundation, it's really inspiring and elevating, and provides hope during times that, you know, can be very daunting. The low, I would just want to get that out of the way, right? The low is always hard to talk about. But I think one of my low points, but it didn't last long. Because I I really had a love of flying, and a love of the air, I lost my pilot qualification probably because I was not studying properly. And, you know, my flashlight under my covers trying to pass that "EE" test or something. And so I did not have the opportunity to fly upon graduation. And that was hard. Because one the culture, you know, we're so oriented towards, "What you're, you're not going to fly?" And I couldn't, it was just not an option for me. And so I really just had to pivot in terms of what are the other needs and ways that I might be able to serve. But that that was a hard time to do that. And it was actually right before commitment. And so people were asking, you know, are you still gonna stay? And I thought, "Well, why wouldn't I am sure the Air Force has other, you know, ways to serve." So, but that was that was kind of a low. And I think another I don't know is if it's a low, but it might be one that I look back on. I was intercollegiate for 12 seasons. And so I had a whole lot of depth of really athletics, and really close friendships because of that, and a lot of travel to places I've never traveled to. But I also then think I didn't get as much breadth of experience of because time was so precious and trying to keep up academically. You know, and I think as I look back, you know, I had participated in theater when I was in high school, but I didn't have time for you know, Blue Bards or anything outside of really athletics and some of the military work that we got to do and keep up with academics and, you know, try to do well there and in my major. Naviere Walkewicz 18:50 So ma'am you mentioned something about the pivot you had to make and you know, some of the disappointment that came with that. How did you kind of get to that positive headspace when your plan changed so dramatically. Gen. Dana Born 19:02 It's hard for me to go back and put myself in what did it there. But I can think of examples like right now what comes to mind for me is the iRobot or the I don't know what how you refer to it, but those, you know, round circular vacuums that if yes, if they get up against a wall, they know that they're there to clean the floor, and they just find a redirect and they keep going. And that's sort of what I think it's been for me, you know, when you kind of stay oriented on your purpose and what you are passionate about. It's easy to not give up but to find another way. And that happened to me when I was fortunate enough to be in a PhD program sponsored by the Air Force Academy in the Air Force to go to Penn State University and right after my second year, the Air Force was downsizing and trying to provide opportunity for people to not have a commitment to school and to be able to basically give up that commitment and not come into the Air Force. And I got that letter that said, "Hey, you can you know, we're sorry. But right now we have an option if you'd like to, you know, get out of the Air Force, you can." And I remember thinking like, you've invested in me to be here for this PhD program. And, you know, I'm hopeful that there's something with this I can do for my Air Force. And so no, I don't want to get out. And so it was kind of like that same iRobot response of I'm here to do this. And so I'm going to figure out a pivot to be able to stay and contribute in a way that might be valuable. Naviere Walkewicz 20:44 That is a great analogy, ma'am. That's fantastic. Well, I know this is not new to you, ma'am. Because with you're hosting other podcasts on leadership, there's questions that you know, our listeners love to learn about, that you're very familiar with. So I'd like to start with one that you ask often about leaders being born versus made. And I know your thoughts on this, that they are both born and made. But I'm hoping you might be able to share a little bit more about what led you to that perspective. Gen. Dana Born 21:12 I think it's through mentorship and wise counsel, in early days, actually, and magnified through the time at the Air Force Academy, that that character is paramount in terms of us being effective humans. And it's also not enough, because you want to be a person of strong character that also has leadership, qualities that help influence for good. And I remember, during my time, even as the dean when we were developing the character and leadership center, and talking about do we call it the in because it used to be the Center for Character Development? Or do we call it the Center for Leadership Development? And are they the same, and I was fascinated with those conversations, because we really got to a point where it is both and and we need to call out character and leadership. Because we can have great, or I won't say great, but we can have leadership where people are able to influence but maybe not for good. And we can have character, but have people of great character that aren't able to mobilize the influence. And so I have just been, I guess, embracing that character and leadership aspect of our mission, primarily, from the time at the Air Force Academy to present day research and investment in teaching and working with executives, graduate students, undergraduates and boards. Naviere Walkewicz 22:50 Was it would you say at the Air Force Academy is when you knew yourself to be a leader? Or, when did you have the desire to lead? Gen. Dana Born 22:59 Interestingly enough, I think about that back at my small town of Penn Yan, New York, and some of that, I have to attribute to the fact that we didn't have many people. I mean, my school had 1,000 people but bused in from 20, or 30 miles in every different direction. And so the because the town wasn't that big, so we had a chance. Matter of fact, I was like, I was Miss Flying Club, you know, for the parade. I was, you know, the head of women's athletics for my school, I got to be on Student Council and be a treasure for my class, and, you know, captain of the cross country team and the track team, it really did stretch me into places that I might not have sought out myself. But people kind of put me in those positions, and then helped me to learn through those positions. But I must say, most of my learning was when things didn't go so well, you know, how come you know, people aren't buying into this, you know, motto. And, you know, what is the dynamic that's happening? You know, we're, we're fractured as a team, you know, how can we fix this? And so it was really through some of those friction moments that I probably learned the most and really loved the opportunity have an input and an influence? Naviere Walkewicz 24:19 Can you share some of those because I think some of our listeners are certainly in parts of their leadership journeys, where they're, they may be facing some of those, you know, friction moments or their early parts of their leadership lessons. You know, what were some of the early lessons that you took on that you might share with them if they experience something like that? Gen. Dana Born 24:38 I think what came to mind for me, more recent examples, clearly, because they're still pretty fresh. But what came to me when you were talking about maybe early years, was I think we're I may be let myself downs nd we're I didn't feel as though I did well enough to be considered a leader. Right? You have to, you know, it's the hero's journey. And I think that I've learned over the years that you don't need to be perfect as a leader. Quite the contrary, right people can relate and, and really be on their own development journey more when we are human and imperfect. And that took me a long time to really embrace because there is that pressure, right, that we feel like we have to be perfect. And we have to know so much, and do so well. And I think that that's, that's not people know that humans aren't perfect, right? So if you're coming across perfect, right? People look for the chinks in the armor. And the higher you are, the higher you fall. So I think that I had that experience at the Air Force Academy, I shared recently in a Sabre Society, talk that, you know, I had been a commander during 9/11, at Bolling, Air Force Base. And it really, I was so proud of how my unit did, and the people that were recognized for just excellence, and we were prepared, and we were responsive. And it was really exciting. And I chose to stay in and ended up at the Air Force Academy as a department chair. And I brought my same self and my same, you know, you know, command energy and I failed miserably in the first, you know, several months, we were going through the sexual assault and sexual harassment crisis, and I was being fairly directive, which worked well with the population I was leading in Washington, DC during 9/11 did not work as well, when you have a very small but mature, you know, mostly PhDs, professional faculty, that I needed to listen to more and not be directive, and it took not long, you know, for what we call it, the Air Force Academy, the blanket party for quite respectable people to come in and say, ma'am, this isn't working and to swallow that humility pill, and, and realize, okay, we need to, I need to adapt here, not lose myself, but adapt to this new environment and situation, Naviere Walkewicz 27:11 Maybe you can share some of the best attributes that you've you've come across in leaders, because, you know, everyone leading from the authentic selves, brings it forward in their own ways. But what are some of the ones that you see time and true, and again, that are really spoken with you as best attributes? Gen. Dana Born 27:27 I think what I have grown to really value is people who probably listen well, and who are curious, and, and I've, I've, I've also found people who see the individual in each person, like, what makes Naviere tick, what is it that's important to you personally, and professionally? You know, what are the ways that you are at your best, and that I think is, is really helpful. I also, I don't know why it just came to me, but I'm kind of led to share it is, I heard some great advice. When I was a younger officer, and for where people were not performing to expectations, instead of blaming the individual or feeling as though you know, they're no good, we need to their poor performer label and move them on. It's really better when we asked three questions, when somebody's not meeting, a standard, you know, have I been as a person, you know, leading? Have I been clear in the expectations? And if I have, then the next question is, have I prepared them? Or given them the right training? Or, you know, opportunity to be good at what I'm asking them to do? And then the third is, if the answer to the first two is I have, I did, then what else is happening in their lives that for whatever reason, they're not meeting, you know, the expectations or standards. And if there's nothing there, then you start the performance plan. But, that was, I think, when people are like giving you space to learn and grow and taking kind of a co collaborative ownership of performance. I've, I've, I've thrived in those situations more than and I hope people in my leadership have thrived in those situations more as well, because it is more of a approach that is a shared approach to getting the mission accomplished and taking care of people. Naviere Walkewicz 29:38 That's an amazing nugget that you shared. I mean, I'm just I can think back throughout my career and times when I probably should have leveraged something like that, and I might have been more effective. Thinking about what pieces have I not maybe done as well or have I done those things, as you said, kind of do a reflective piece from a leadership perspective, to be able then to collaborate in a you know, a better way forward. That's awesome, ma'am. Thank you. Gen. Dana Born 30:02 Yeah, I had a couple of terrible times of moral discernment, I would say, in decision making when those situations came up, particularly when, you know, you're having to make a decision where somebody's going to be incarcerated. And, you know, I, I had one of those situations where, you know, I was actually eight months pregnant, and the individual was a failure to show up for he was an honor guardsman failure to show for several funerals. And his, his wife was eight months pregnant. And here I was sitting, as you know, the summary court official having to decide if I'm going to throw, you know, him in a situation where he's absent from his family, and, you know, and what kind of financial, leeway will I have in order to help the family but still hold him accountable. And that was very, very difficult because of my own, you know, situation and empathy. But at the same time, it hit me during that decision that there are a lot of airmen who are not there for the birth of their kids or for special events and are deployed in harm's way. And they're doing the mission, not A.W.O.L.. And so I ultimately decided to, you know, incarcerate him for his failure to go and being A.W.O.L. and also try to protect with some leniency, his family situation. Naviere Walkewicz 31:39 Leading with compassion, but always being accountable, ma'am, that's, it's tough. And I think, you know, we have many listeners that find themselves in those situations. And I've often been asked, you know, I'm a mom, how can I advance my career professionally, I have to do all these other things as well. And so maybe a question that I might tie to that a little bit. You know, how do you how did you balance, that compassion side of leadership and still be able to make some those difficult decisions in the moment? And you know, what would you share with others and how they might do that and think through things when it maybe feels a little bit too hard or too daunting? Gen. Dana Born 32:15 It is very hard and is daunting. And you use the term balance, and I, I love the word balance. You know, I'm a middle child, and I'm a Libran. You know, I like balanced, but I have found balance to be very difficult. There's a term called. "balance is bunk." And I like that because it's anytime I feel like I've had anything in balance, it's about ready to go on tilt. And so I try to change out the word balance with the word integrate, that works better for me or Harmonize How do I bring together those things and the Airforce in the time that I was working at the in the Chief of Staff's personnel office came up with a motto, "People First in Mission Always," and it can be, "Mission First." And people always, but it's sort of like the chicken and the egg, they both actually go together. And they're very important. And so I think there's that keeping the both and in the integration of that is what helped me in some of those tough decisions. I mean, I remember having to take a security clearance away from a lieutenant colonel, for all the right reasons, but trying, you know, that person then was going to lose their position in the Air Force, because it required a security clearance. And, and it wasn't a situation that I put that person in, right, they put themselves in that position, but what I didn't want to do was deliver the news in a way that then the individual would feel like they have nothing left right to or would ultimately, you know, take their life, right, that always was present to say, uh, don't want this person to go away with anything other than, you know, your life is not over. But you know, this is a very serious trajectory that you have to decide how you're going to go forward from this point. And that was hard, very hard, but it's both people and mission that I think we have to embrace in the way that we carry on what we're responsible for, for our nation. Naviere Walkewicz 34:25 Well, I think about you know, some of those stories that you shared and some of the experiences you had, I mean, you probably had to go home and, and your your network at home, your family was there with you through all of the journey. How has your family influenced you as a leader and maybe what role do they play in that? Gen. Dana Born 34:40 I talked a lot with my family, like the time around the dinner table was really sort of transparency. And that bothered my children because I started to hear things back that I thought they shouldn't have to be hearing some of this, and so I also kind of drew inward and decided that that I, "Who can I talk with," right, because I don't want to bring work home, so to speak, that weighs down the family. I want to focus on them. And so I went through a period where I suffered in silence. And I think many leaders and many people, as particularly when you have, you know, security issues that you can't talk about certain things with others. I think we need to find a way and I ultimately did find someone that I could go to and say, I need some advice. And that was monumental, because it helped me understand that I had not been doing that with with great mentors. And I thought about it. And it shocked me that I was not asking for advice. And I thought, How do I feel like if Naviere or someone comes to me and ask for advice, I feel like, wow, if they think I have, yeah, exactly. They're including me, I have something to offer. They care about what I have to say. And so I really had an epiphany that said, I need to do that more. And I started to reach out. And in one case, I reached out to the Chief of Staff of the Air Force, you know, having talked with the superintendent first. And it was phenomenal. Because I had such a different perspective on something I was ruminating over. And I thought Why did I wait so long? Naviere Walkewicz 36:26 What advice would you give to some that are suffering in silence, and maybe can't see that next step? And to doing that what actually helped you to go seek help and ask for help or ask for guidance and mentorship? Gen. Dana Born 36:39 I think recognizing, well, in some cases, vulnerability is a strength. And, you know, Brene Brown, who I really do love her work. And her, her, her YouTube or, you know, Netflix, a lot of great science and also practice, but she said, What makes you vulnerable, makes you beautiful. And I think that that is part of it is to recognize that, you know, we're all vulnerable, or we're all broken in maybe different places, right to quote some history. And so I think it connects us and builds trust when we are willing to be vulnerable. And I think it takes courage as well, to let ourselves be seen for all, you know, we have a saying that's warts and all. And, you know, to let ourselves be really fully seen, Naviere Walkewicz 37:33 That resonates with so many people. I think a lot of times people when they're listening to podcasts, and they're, they're just trying to learn and get better in their professional career in their personal lives. Just a can take one little thing that someone really resonates with. And I think you sharing that bit about being reflective and not necessarily suffering in silence, but but looking for helping others I think is going to be really powerful for some. So thank you for sharing some of that. Gen. Dana Born 37:56 I think the key takeaway is, is just building on what we just talked about, like if I had a foot-stomper, right from our Air Force Academy days, that's like, if you're starting to fall asleep, right? I use that at Harvard. And I'm like, "Does anybody know what foot stamper actually means?" It means, you know, this, is it pay attention. And I'm, I'm really motivated by the John F. Kennedy quote, "Leadership, well, learning and leadership are indispensable from each other." I think that if I were to say there's two really important takeaways, those for me have been, be curious, be more curious. And that is just really asking a lot of questions. Leaning into not judgment, but leaning into really digging into and trying to understand. And that gets us, I think, in a whole different place. That is a good place. And so I haven't always done that. Well, curiosity is like a growth mindset. And I think that is something that I really would recommend to our listeners, be more curious. And I think that's being helped by Chat GPT and Generative AI because it's all about the questions you ask. And, and then it kind of gets at what answers you get. And I think that's maybe training us to be, you know, more curious and careful in how we're asking and being curious. The other is courage. And you brought this up earlier, but I think courage, you know, the root word of courage is heart. And I think leading with your heart and leading with, like the recognition that things that are hard, make your heart rate go up. Courage, you know, our heart rate goes up when we're in danger physically, morally, psychologically. And I think leaning into that to where our heart rate goes up a little bit is how we learn and grow and how we basically can make positive change. So, those two things together, curiosity and courage, under the umbrella of learning and leading go, you know, they're indispensable to each other is the takeaway. I thought you might ask me like, you talked about purpose earlier. What is your purpose? What is it that gets you out of bed in the morning? And what is it that keeps you going through the tough times? And what is it at the end of your, you know, last breath that will have been your dash in your life, your purpose, your why, and mine actually is a simple phrase to myself. I use the term, "kick chocks", and "kick chocks" is, you know, the bricks in front of the wheel of the airplane, and when you're ready to go, you gotta get, gotta get rid of them, or you can't take off. But sometimes you have to kind of have the chocks there, to pause and to, you know, refuel and to do things. So kick chocks, to me has sort of been a way that I am channeled. Some call it your true north, or your Polaris, your compass, and it speaks to me because I can, I can go, go, go, go and never put chocks in front. I also can keep chocks in front of myself and, and limit myself and, and I'm passionate about what is it that somebody needs to have a break? You know? And when is it when somebody has got something in the way or team or organization that's holding them back? And how do I help identify that and kick chocks with them so we can take off. So, it speaks to me. But yeah, the purpose I think, purpose and passion and the individualization of that, so because everybody is so different comes from our life stories, and I love learning about people's purpose. Naviere Walkewicz 41:51 General born, might you share with us, you know, maybe what you're reading, watching or listening to that's helped you develop your leadership skills. Gen. Dana Born 41:59 I love to listen to everything. I mean, I am a listener, you know, we all know how we we learn best, I'm really auditory. So podcasts I pick up, I really do a lot with the Council on Foreign Relations. I do listen also to a lot of leadership podcasts, because I just find the whole topic of leadership fascinating for so many different approaches to what we think we're all talking about the same, it just really is expansive of my understanding. And I also now there are so many ways that you can have, you know, auditory books, and or listen to even academic journal articles. So usually, it's a treadmill thing to listen. And I just, I think that is my approach. I also I do like to read, and I think my favorite leadership book is going to shock you. But it's it's sort of got a nautical theme, I think, not an Air Force theme, but its endurance about Shackleton and Antarctica. And there's so many leadership lessons in that book, endurance is one of my favorites. And another one of my favorites is and they're both kind of historical, is Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, written in 1946. I've read that so many times, and he wrote it in nine days, but it's because he wrote it while he was a prisoner in the Nazi prison camp. And then he rewrote it after it was burned. And he was liberated. And it's just an amazing, timeless evergreen read about life and about leadership, about purpose about meaning. And then most recently, for a current one is True North, and that is emerging leaders by Bill George and Zack Clayton. And I just think that that is a great pedagogy of thinking about ourselves. Put our own oxygen mask on first so that we can better care for the mission and the people that are entrusted to us and the change we want to see in the world. So, that's a current reader TrueNorth for emerging leaders. Naviere Walkewicz 44:24 It's been amazing. Thank you so much for taking the time, ma'am. It's been a pleasure and an honor. Gen. Dana Born 44:28 It's a pleasure and an honor. And I thank all our listeners for listening in and we wish you well. KEYWORDS Air Force Academy, leadership, people, Air Force, talk, family, dean, work, leader, serve, flew, cadet, Academy, Coast Guard Academy, recognized, years, terms, leading, long, podcasts The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
The Long Blue Leadership team was in attendance at the 2024 National Character and Leadership Symposium and interviewed several NCLS speakers. ----more---- We set up our studio on site and invited several of the speakers to join us to discuss the what and why behind their messages. Two of the lead cadet organizers of the NCLS event and the 2024 cadet class president visited with us to share why they are so heavily involved and what they took away from the event. And we invited the cadet hosts of the Polaris Hall Podcast to share our studio space for their interviews with NCLS speakers, one of which, they shared with us. In this special edition of Long Blue Leadership, producer, Ted Robertson's, conversations with comedian Jose Sarduy, class of '99; NCLS organizers cadet 1st class Rachel Parillo and cadet 2nd class Weiss Yuan; and 2024 class president, cadet 1st class, Adedapo Adeboyejo. Also joining us, astronaut Dr. Kjell Lindgren, class of '95; author and entrepreneur Delovell Earls, class of 2015. Finally, making guest appearances for their interview with NCLS speaker, Olympic gold medal swimmer, Missy Franklin Johnson, Polaris Hall Podcast hosts, cadet 1st class Maya Mandyam and cadet 2nd class Margaret Meehan, hosts of the Polaris Hall Podcast. SEE THE NCLS SPEAKER VIDEOS HERE NCLS 2024 IN REVIEW NCLS 2024 PHOTO GALLERY DOWNLOAD THE NCLS 2024 PROGRAM GET THE POLARIS HALL PODCAST HERE SPECIAL THANKS Our very special thanks to C1C Maya Mandyam and C2C Margaret Meehan, hosts of the Polaris Hall Podcast, for their contribution of excerpts from their excellent interview with Olympic Gold Medalist, Missy Franklin-Johnson. ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership is a production of the Long Blue Line Podcast Network, drops every two weeks on Tuesdays, and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates! PHOTO GALLERY NCLS 2024 Top to Bottom: Jose Sarduy | C1C Rachel Parillo, C1C Adedapo Adeboyejo and C2C Weiss Yuan Dr. Kjell Lindgren | DeLovell Earls Missy Franklin-Johnson, C1C Maya Mandyam and C2C Margaret Meehan The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
© 2020-2026 Ivy Podcast Discovery LLC
