THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST

In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Dr. John Torres shares his inspiring journey from being the first in his family to attend college to becoming NBC's senior medical correspondent. SUMMARY Dr. Torres discusses the challenges he faced at the Air Force Academy, the pivotal moments that shaped his leadership skills, and the influence of his family values. He reflects on his unconventional experiences, including survival training and falconry, and how these experiences prepared him for a successful career in medicine and media. His story is a testament to resilience, curiosity, and the importance of mentorship in leadership. In this conversation, he shares his journey from dealing with hantavirus outbreaks in New Mexico to becoming a prominent medical correspondent during the pandemic. Dr. Torres discuss the challenges of communicating complex medical information to the public, the importance of empathy when delivering bad news, and the role of family support in his career. Finally, he emphasizes the need for continuous improvement in leadership and the value of instilling positive values in the next generation.   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK   DR. TORRES' TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS  - Lead with empathy: Understand where people are coming from, recognizing that anger often stems from fear and underlying concerns.  - Communicate clearly: Break down complex information into understandable terms, whether speaking to patients, soldiers, or the public.  - Be willing to admit mistakes: True leadership means having the courage to acknowledge when you're wrong and take responsibility.  - Develop a "no excuse" mentality: Take ownership of situations, even when they're not entirely your fault.  - Build trust through peer-to-peer interactions: Treat people as equals rather than using an authoritarian approach.  - Continuously learn and adapt: Stay current in your field and be open to new experiences and perspectives.  - Support your team's individual growth: Encourage people to pursue their passions and provide guidance without pressure.  - Match your emotional delivery to your message: Ensure your communication is authentic and appropriate to the content.  - Lead by example: Demonstrate the values and work ethic you expect from others through your own actions.  - Focus on purpose over position: Leadership is about making a positive impact and helping others grow, not about title or status.   CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to Dr. John Torres 02:01 Overcoming Challenges at the Academy 05:03 Discovering Leadership Through Survival Training 08:33 Influence of Family Values on Leadership 10:42 Unconventional Experiences at the Academy 13:41 Transitioning from Pilot to Medical Doctor 20:06 Lessons Learned as a Flight Doc 23:58 Becoming an NBC Correspondent 24:37 Hantavirus and Early Medical Experiences 26:00 Transitioning to Media: From ER to TV 27:23 The Pandemic: A Super Bowl for Medicine 29:05 Communicating Medical Information Effectively 32:29 Delivering Bad News with Compassion 34:41 Teaching NATO Special Forces Medics 37:02 Family Support and Legacy 39:58 Instilling Values in the Next Generation 41:56 Continuous Improvement as a Leader 45:52 Final Thoughts and Future Aspirations   ABOUT DR. TORRES BIO Dr. John Torres '82 is currently Senior Medical Correspondent for NBC News and a graduate of the United States Air Force Academy. With a career spanning more than 30 years in emergency medicine, military service, and national media, Dr. Torres brings a rare blend of clinical expertise, crisis leadership, and public communication to every role he takes on. Before joining NBC, he served in the Air Force, deploying to combat zones and responding to humanitarian crises around the globe. After retiring from the military, Dr. Torres transitioned to civilian emergency medicine and later began sharing trusted medical insights with millions of viewers through his work in broadcast journalism. On camera and off, he is known for making complex medical issues accessible and relevant, especially during moments of national concern like the COVID-19 pandemic. A seasoned leader shaped by experience in the field, the ER, and the newsroom, Dr. Torres exemplifies the values of service, clarity under pressure, and lifelong learning—principles he credits in large part to his upbringing in rural New Mexico, foundational Academy education and military experiences.   CONNECT WITH DR. TORRES LINKEDIN       ALL PAST LBL EPISODES  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS     TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS:  Guest, Dr. John Torres '82 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99   KEYWORDS Leadership, Air Force Academy, Dr. John Torres, survival training, medical correspondent, family values, unconventional journey, overcoming challenges, mentorship, public health, Hantavirus, medical communication, pandemic, media, family legacy, leadership, teaching, NATO, bad news delivery, continuous improvement       The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation    

In this edition of Long Blue Leadership, we're exploring the evolution and elevation of leadership with a leader who knows what it means to build champions in every sense of the word. SUMMARY Jemal Singleton ‘99 is a mentor, a motivator, and has gained a mastery of the grind. From the military to the boardroom, the locker room, and NFL victories, he has forged a path rooted in service, strength, and success. Get ready to be inspired. This conversation is about leadership game-planning with a masterful maker of leaders.   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK   COACH SINGLETON'S LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS  - Coach Singleton emphasizes the importance of leading with conviction.  - He learned to connect with people through immersive cultural experiences.  - The Super Bowl victory was a culmination of focus and teamwork.  - Growing up as a military brat shaped his adaptability and leadership.  - Family dynamics played a crucial role in his development as a leader.  - Discovering the Air Force Academy was a pivotal moment in his life.  - Basic training taught him valuable lessons about overcoming fear.  - His leadership style evolved through experiences at the Academy.  - Transitioning from military to coaching was a significant decision.  - Failures in his career have provided the greatest learning opportunities.  - Success and failure are both essential for growth.  - Belief in others can significantly impact their performance.  - Understanding individual motivations is key to effective leadership.  - Mentorship plays a crucial role in shaping leaders.  - Building relationships is foundational to leadership success.  - Balancing family and work is vital for personal fulfillment.  - Grit and resilience are important traits in leadership.  - Investing in personal growth enhances leadership effectiveness.  - Daily routines help maintain focus and discipline.  - Leadership can be demonstrated from any position.    EPISODE CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to Leadership Insights 04:30 Jamal's Early Life and Military Influence 08:00 Family Dynamics and Leadership Development 11:35 Basic Training and Leadership Challenges 14:52 Growth at the Air Force Academy 18:58 Transitioning from Military to Coaching 21:34 Navigating Career Decisions 22:57 Facing Failures and Learning from Them 26:18 Navigating Success and Failure 27:38 The Power of Belief in Leadership 29:58 Understanding Individual Motivations 32:40 Influences and Inspirations in Leadership 34:05 Building Relationships as a Leadership Foundation 36:02 Balancing Family and Professional Life 38:23 Lessons in Grit from Home 40:38 Investing in Personal Growth 42:41 Daily Routines for Effective Leadership 44:36 Striving for Continuous Improvement 47:27 Leading from Any Position 49:14 Final Thoughts on Leadership and the Academy   ABOUT JEMAL BIO Jemal Singleton '99, is a veteran coach with over 20 years of experience at the collegiate and professional levels. He is currently service as the Philadelphia Eagles' running backs/assistant head coach. Under his leadership, the Eagles have made four consecutive playoff runs, capturing two conference titles and the Super Bowl LIX Championship. From 2021–24, Philadelphia led the NFL in rushing touchdowns (108) and ranked among the top three in rushing yards per game (153.9) and yards per carry (4.7). Singleton helped three different running backs earn Pro Bowl honors during this span. In 2024, Singleton coached a historic ground game led by Saquon Barkley, who rushed for 2,005 yards in the regular season and 2,504 total, earning AP NFL Offensive Player of the Year and first-team All-Pro honors. The Eagles set a league record with 3,866 team rushing yards. Previously, Singleton helped guide D'Andre Swift (2023) and Miles Sanders (2022) to their first Pro Bowls, with both ranking in the top five in rushing yards. In 2021, Philadelphia led the league in both rushing yards and touchdowns. Before joining the Eagles, Singleton coached running backs for the Bengals (2019–20), Raiders (2018), and Colts (2016–17), mentoring talents like Joe Mixon, Jalen Richard, and Frank Gore. His collegiate experience includes Arkansas (2015) and Oklahoma State (2011–14), where he coached standout backs such as Alex Collins and Joseph Randle. Singleton began his coaching career at the Air Force Academy, his alma mater, spending nine years in various roles and helping the Falcons consistently rank among the top rushing teams in the nation. A former team captain and honorable mention All-WAC running back, Singleton led Air Force to consecutive 10-win seasons and a conference title. A San Antonio native and son of a retired Air Force Sergeant, Singleton holds a degree in social sciences and lives with his wife, Jennifer, and their two daughters, Morgan and Mallory.  - Bio excerpted from philadelphiaeagles.com   - Image credit:  Mr. Ryan Hall     CONNECT WITH JEMAL LINKEDIN | PA EAGLES     WITH OUR SPECIAL APPRECIATION TO THE EAGLES' PRODUCTION TEAM Eagles Team (Center L-R):  JohnPaul Beattie | Wes Lauria | Kelleher |  Haley Mccullough | Alex Barson (L) LBL Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 | (R) Guest, Jemal Singleton '99  - Image credit:  Mr. Ryan Hall     ALL PAST LBL EPISODES  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS       TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS GUEST:  Jemal Singleton '99 | HOST:  Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99   KEYWORDS Leadership, Air Force Academy, coaching, Super Bowl, mentorship, personal growth, military influence, sports, resilience, career decisions, leadership, success, failure, motivation, personal growth, relationships, coaching, NFL, family, grit       The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation      

From A-10 combat missions to three Super Bowl championships, Chad Hennings has led in the air, on the field, and now—through character-based leadership.----more---- SUMMARY In the latest episode of Long Blue Leadership, Chad shares pivotal lessons from two leadership crucibles: flying in combat and transitioning from military life to the NFL. We also talk about his work today helping others lead with moral courage, through business, mentorship, and his Forces of Character podcast.   SHARE THIS CONVERSATION LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK   CHAD'S TOP LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS  - Chad chose to fulfill his military commitment over NFL opportunities.  - Commitment and integrity were instilled in him from a young age.  - Athletics served as a leadership laboratory for Chad.  - Leadership is about setting an example for others.  - Identity is not defined by what you do, but who you are.  - Struggles and obstacles are essential for personal growth.  - Character development requires strong relationships and feedback.  - Kinetic character means actively working on your character.  - Resilience is built through overcoming challenges.  - True fulfillment comes from relationships, not material success. Visualization is key to understanding identity and leadership.  - Leadership is about serving others, not just personal gain.  - True leadership involves modeling behavior for others.  - Identity is foundational for making sound decisions.  - Transitioning from structured environments can challenge one's identity.  - Don't compromise your values to fit in with a group.  - Creating community is essential for personal growth.  - Daily practices like devotionals can set the tone for leadership.  - A growth mindset is crucial for continuous improvement.  - Character and integrity are essential for effective leadership.   CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to Leadership and Commitment 02:02 Crossroads: Choosing Commitment Over Opportunity 05:58 Lessons from Athletics and Leadership 11:47 The Evolution of Identity and Purpose 16:07 Character Development Through Struggles 21:50 Kinetic Character: The Importance of Relationships 24:04 Visualizing Identity and Leadership 29:12 Navigating Transitions and Identity 32:07 Building Community and Legacy 38:09 Daily Practices for Effective Leadership 40:49 The Importance of Mindset in Leadership 42:08 Character and Integrity in Leadership 43:06 Encouragement for Aspiring Leaders   ABOUT CHAD BIO Chad learned the value of hard work, trust, and integrity growing up on his parent's farm in Iowa. Those lessons became central to the life he's lived since with unwavering character. From the fields of Iowa to the skies over Iraq, Chad's journey took him from the U.S. Air Force Academy where he earned academic All-American honors and won the Outland Trophy as the nation's top lineman, to flying 45, A-10 combat and humanitarian missions in the first Gulf war. It was only after fulfilling his commitment to serve that Chad entered the NFL. He was 27 at the time and went on to win three Super Bowl championships with the Dallas Cowboys. Today, Chad continues to lead from the front. He's a speaker and he's authored several books including It Takes Commitment, Rules of Engagement, and Forces of Character. He founded Wingmen Ministries and is a principal in Rubicon Representation, where he helps businesses grow through meaningful relationships and synergy. He's also the host of his new podcast, Forces of Character, where he shares stories of moral courage and principled leadership, including two periods in his life as a developing and growing leader that ultimately became crucibles. One of those in the cockpit in combat and another transitioning from the military to the NFL.   FORCES OF CHARACTER PODCAST Chad Hennings, renowned author and former professional NFL athlete, is excited to announce the upcoming launch of his new project, the Forces of Character Podcast, slated for release in early 2025. Based on the principles outlined in his bestselling book, Forces of Character, the podcast will feature insightful interviews with extraordinary individuals who have demonstrated unwavering character and a noble purpose in their personal and professional lives. LISTEN HERE    - Copy and image courtesy of Chad Hennings and Forces of Character     CONNECT WITH CHAD LINKEDIN | RUBICON REPRESENTATION ON LINKEDIN       ALL PAST LBL EPISODES  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS     TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Our guest:  Chad Hennings '82 | Our host: Lt. Col. Naviere Walkewicz '99   KEYWORDS Leadership, commitment, character, Air Force Academy, NFL, personal growth, identity, resilience, mentorship, purpose, leadership, identity, visualization, transitions, community, legacy, daily practices, mindset, character, integrity     The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation    

In this edition of Long Blue Leadership, host Naviere Walkewicz '99 talks with Emma Przybyslawski '10, an Air Force Academy graduate whose path has taken her from the front lines of tactical special operations in combat zones to the founder's chair at Strike Solutions. SUMMARY With 1,634 confirmed kills, and personal threats from ISIS, Emma knows what high-stakes leadership looks like. She opened up about her transition to the tech world, the power of the Air Force Academy network, and the role that courage, flexibility, and humor play in both survival and success. Whether you're in uniform or in a startup, Emma's insights on active listening and continual growth are essential to your success as a developing or seasoned leader.   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN  |  FACEBOOK   EMMA'S 10 BEST LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS Leadership Requires Courage and Action “You have to be courageous and lean forward… even when you're not sure.” → Leaders don't wait for certainty—they move, learn, and adapt. Course Correction Is a Leadership Strength “You're not always going to get it right, but you can course correct.” → Mistakes aren't fatal if you're willing to pivot and improve. Ownership Is the Price of Admission to Elite Teams “You meet the standard or exceed it—or you're not on the team.” → High-performance cultures are built on individual accountability. Active Listening Builds Trust and Influence “Sometimes somebody just needs you to listen… and engage without fixing.” → Listening is one of a leader's most powerful tools. Feedback Isn't Personal—It's Growth Fuel “Ask for feedback—and be willing to take it.” → Good leaders seek the truth about themselves, even when it stings. You Can Lead From Any Seat Emma's career includes transitions from cadet to combat controller to business owner. → Title doesn't define leadership—character and action do. Clarity of Standards Drives Excellence “There was no rank—just performance. You either deliver or you're gone.” → Clear expectations reduce confusion and elevate teams. Mission Over Ego Her willingness to return to the Academy after leaving shows humility. → Leadership often means swallowing pride for a greater goal. Diversity Demands Curiosity, Not Assumptions “Ask people about their experience—don't assume you understand it.” → Inclusive leaders replace judgment with curiosity. Leaders Multiply Leadership “Your leadership should raise the waterline for everyone around you.” → Leadership is about impact—lifting others as you grow.   CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to Emma Prisboslawski's Journey 01:26 Life in Special Operations 07:02 Navigating Chaos: A Day in Emma's Life 10:40 The Academy Experience: A Personal Journey 18:04 Leadership Lessons from Military Experience 27:52 The Importance of Active Listening in Leadership 28:21 The Power of Listening and Empathy 29:51 Navigating Career Transitions 32:18 Embracing Technology and Innovation 35:55 The Importance of Networking 36:24 Building Strike Solutions 37:48 Navigating the Vast Tech Landscape 40:14 Learning from Mistakes 42:31 Giving Back to the Academy 46:31 Continuous Self-Improvement and Leadership   ABOUT EMMA BIO Emma Przybyslawski '10 is the daughter of Mj. Gen. (Ret.) Anthony '76 and Priscilla Pzybyslawski. She spent her childhood counting the number of states she lived in as a military brat. While at the Academy, she loved living in Cadet Squadron 19 and eventually led the Wolverines as Squadron Commander to Outstanding Squadron of the Year. Upon graduation, Emma was commissioned as a special operations intelligence officer and spent her Air Force career either overseas supporting counterdrug efforts or counterterrorism operations in the Middle East; she was awarded a Bronze Star during her last deployment for her combat efforts in Iraq. She decided to separate from the Air Force in 2016 and started her civilian career in the high-tech industry. Emma has since founded Strike Solutions, a defense company focused on bringing advanced technology solutions to various DoD operational mission sets. In her free time, she has a passion for traveling, food, spending time with family and friends, and sports – but all of those things are best enjoyed with her husband and Air Force pilot Chris Spach and their Bernese Mountain Dogs, Gunner and Harley.   CONNECT WITH EMMA LINKEDIN  |  STRIKE SOLUTIONS     ALL PAST LBL EPISODES  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS     TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS GUEST:  Emma Przybyslawski '10  |  HOST:  Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99    KEYWORDS leadership, resilience, military, special operations, personal growth, Air Force Academy, women in combat, entrepreneurship, active listening, mentorship, leadership, empathy, career transition, technology, networking, innovation, military, Air Force Academy, personal growth, mentorship     The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation    

A view of leadership and character development through the eyes and actions of a world-class athlete. SUMMARY For NCAA Division I heavyweight wrestling champion and newly commissioned 2nd Lt. Wyatt Hendrickson '24, what happens on the mat informs how he manages conflict, planning, strategy and tactics, and most importantly, his development as a leader.   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN  |  FACEBOOK   WYATT'S TAKEAWAYS  - Wyatt's journey exemplifies leadership and perseverance.  - The Air Force Academy provided a strong foundation for Wyatt.  - Pivotal moments can change the trajectory of one's life.  - Tattoos can tell a personal story and hold deep meaning.  - Winning the NCAA title was a culmination of hard work and strategy.   - Mindset and planning are crucial in wrestling and leadership.  - Family support plays a significant role in personal success.  - Mastering the basics is essential for excellence in any field.  - Call signs reflect identity and values in the military.  - God's plan often unfolds in unexpected ways.  Adversity can lead to personal growth and resilience.  - Mental strength is crucial in competitive sports.  - Reaching out for help is essential for overcoming challenges.  - Building a strong foundation in skills is vital for success.  - Wrestling teaches valuable life lessons about failure and perseverance.  - Enjoying the journey is as important as achieving goals.  - Hard work is the only path to success; there are no shortcuts.  - Self-motivation is key to personal and professional growth.  - Doing little things right builds good habits and character.  - Faith and gratitude play a significant role in success.   CHAPTERS 00:00:  Introduction to Leadership and Perseverance 02:07:  The Journey to the Air Force Academy 05:56:  Defining Moments and Personal Growth 09:57:  Tattoos and Their Significance 14:03:  The NCAA Championship Experience 18:03:  Mindset and Training in Wrestling 22:05:  Call Signs and Identity 26:00:  Family Background and Support 27:06:  Overcoming Adversity in Wrestling 30:40:  The Mental Game of Wrestling 35:15:  Building a Strong Foundation 38:01:  Lessons from Wrestling and Military 40:34:  Training for the 2028 Olympics 42:08:  Finding Joy in the Journey 44:42:  Navigating Sponsorships and NIL 47:03:  The Importance of Doing Little Things Right 50:48:  Self-Motivation and Purpose 54:02:  Closing Thoughts and Gratitude     ABOUT WYATT HENDRICKSON BIO 2nd Lt. Wyatt Hendrickson '24 is a wrestler known for his remarkable collegiate career and service in the United States Air Force. He gained national attention in 2025 by winning the NCAA heavyweight championship, defeating Olympic gold medalist Gable Steveson in a dramatic upset. Early Life and High School Career Hendrickson comes from Newton, Kansas, and is the son of Todd and Lynnette Hendrickson. At Newton High School, he was a standout wrestler, becoming a two-time Kansas state champion and a three-time finalist. He earned All-American honors in freestyle, Greco-Roman, and folkstyle wrestling, and won national titles at the NHSCA Senior Nationals and FloNationals.  Collegiate Wrestling Career Air Force Academy Initially hesitant about a military path, Wyatt was persuaded by his father to attend the U.S. Air Force Academy. There, he became one of the most dominant heavyweight wrestlers in NCAA history. He was a five-time NCAA qualifier, two-time Big 12 champion, and two-time NCAA All-American, finishing third nationally in both 2023 and 2024. He led the nation in pins for three consecutive seasons and was twice named the NCAA Most Dominant Wrestler. He concluded his Air Force career with a 103–11 record, becoming the program's all-time leader in pins.​ Oklahoma State University Due to the COVID-19 pandemic, Wyatt had an extra year of eligibility. As a member of the Air Force's World Class Athlete Program, he was allowed to delay active-duty service to pursue Olympic training. This enabled him to transfer to Oklahoma State University for the 2024–25 season. Fulfilling a childhood dream, he joined the Cowboys and went undefeated (27–0), culminating in his victory over Gable Steveson in the NCAA finals. Personal Life and Military Service Wyatt holds the rank of second lieutenant in the U.S. Air Force and is pursuing an MBA at Oklahoma State University. His unique journey from a small-town Kansas wrestler to NCAA champion and military officer exemplifies dedication and perseverance.​ MORE ON WYATT HERE:   CONNECT WITH WYATT INSTAGRAM  |  LINKEDIN     ALL PAST LBL EPISODES  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS     FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS:  Guest, 2nd. Lt. Wyatt Hendrickson '24  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99             KEYWORDS Leadership, perseverance, Air Force Academy, wrestling, NCAA champion, personal growth, mindset, tattoos, family support, call signs, wrestling, adversity, mental strength, Olympic training, leadership, self-improvement, Air Force Academy, sponsorships, NIL (Name, Image, Likeness), personal growth   GALLERY       The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation    

Jake DeRuyter, a 2015 Air Force Academy graduate, shares a compelling leadership journey marked by unexpected challenges and resilient adaptation. ----more---- SUMMARY Initially aspiring to be a pilot, Jake faced a critical moment when back surgery disqualified him from his dream career, forcing him to quickly choose a new Air Force Specialty Code within just one hour. Despite the uncertainty, he remained calm and strategic, ultimately transitioning to intelligence and then to an ROTC instructor role. His leadership philosophy emerged from these experiences: staying flexible, maintaining a strong network, and focusing on developing others rather than just personal advancement.   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK   JAKE'S LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS  - Always be willing to adapt and stay resilient when unexpected challenges arise, like Jake did when he couldn't become a pilot and had to quickly choose a new career path.  - Build and maintain a strong network of connections, as these relationships can help you navigate career transitions and provide support.  - Focus on developing the people around you, not just your own career advancement. A great leader lifts up their team and helps others grow.  - Stay proactive in reaching out to people, checking in, and genuinely listening to their stories and experiences.  - Be willing to take risks on talented individuals, especially those from similar backgrounds or networks, like how Jake was given an opportunity by fellow graduates.  - Maintain a competitive spirit and drive, but channel it into continuous self-improvement and supporting others.  - Give back to your community, whether through mentoring, volunteering, or leading local chapters and organizations.  - Be prepared to put in consistent daily effort, understanding that success comes from habits and persistent hard work.  - Stay open to unexpected opportunities and be willing to pivot when your initial career path doesn't work out.  - Prioritize relationships and connections over individual achievements, recognizing that your success is often measured by the people you've helped develop.   JAKE'S TOP 5 LEADERSHIP LESSONS Here are the 5 best leadership lessons from Jake DeRuyter's interview:   Build Others Up, Not Just Yourself Jake emphasized that true leadership is about developing the people around you. As he said, "Don't just worry about your own career and life" - great leaders are judged by the success of those they mentor and support.   Stay Adaptable and Resilient When Jake's pilot career was unexpectedly derailed, he demonstrated the critical leadership skill of staying calm under pressure and quickly pivoting. He chose to focus on what he could control rather than getting stuck on what he couldn't change.   Maintain Genuine Connections Jake consistently stressed the importance of reaching out, checking in with people, and truly listening. He makes time to connect with classmates, colleagues, and fellow graduates, understanding that relationships are the foundation of effective leadership.   Take Calculated Risks and Support Others Jake's career trajectory shows the importance of being willing to take risks - both for yourself and for others. He was given a chance by fellow graduates and now pays it forward by helping other transitioning military members.   Give Back Consistently Leadership isn't just about personal achievement, but about contributing to your community. Jake exemplifies this through his role as chapter president, mentoring cadets, and always being available to help fellow Air Force Academy graduates.   EPISODE CHAPTERS 00:00  Introduction to Leadership Journeys 05:31  Navigating Life's Crossroads 12:01  The Role of Mentorship and Family 17:31  Transitioning from Military to Civilian Life 20:48  Motivation and Personal Drive 22:02  The Daily Grind: A Shift in Focus 24:31  Building Community: Chapter Leadership 27:29 Challenges of Leadership and Engagement 29:00 Giving Back: The Importance of Community 31:12  Leadership Lessons: Daily Practices 32:53  Advice for Aspiring Leaders 34:25  Reflections on Involvement and Connection 36:40  Final Thoughts and Gratitude   ABOUT JAKE BIO As a 2015 graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, Jake spent six years on active duty serving as an Intel Officer and ROTC Instructor. Having left the service, he now am an Account Executive on the Air Force team at IMPRES Technology Solutions providing active duty units with the tech they need to accomplish the mission. - Copy courtesy of Jake DeRuyter and LinkedIn   CONNECT WITH JAKE LINKEDIN  |  ASSOCIATION OF GRADUATES - CENTRAL TEXAS CHAPTER     ALL PAST LBL EPISODES  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS     FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS GUEST, JAKE DERUYTER '15  |  HOST, LT. COL. (RET.) NAVIERE WALKEWICZ '99   Naviere Walkewicz  00:00 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership, the podcast where we share insights on leadership through the lives and experiences of Air Force Academy graduates. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. My guest today is Jake DeRuyter, Class of '15, currently an account executive with Impress Technology and the president of the Central Texas Chapter of the Association of Graduates, quite possibly our youngest graduate to do so. He is second-generation Air Force following his father, a graduate from the Class of '85, and uncle, Class of '87 from our Air Force Academy, the only school that he applied to after high school. We'll talk about those things, Jake's leadership journey and a particular crossroad he arrived at when he had one hour to decide his entire life. Jake, welcome to Long Blue Leadership, and I'd like to dive right in: One hour to decide your entire life. What's that about?   Jake DeRuyter  01:22 Yeah, so my second semester, first year, I was dealing with some pretty significant back issues, and didn't realize how just how severe it was. So I'm in the flight dock. It was either the Monday the week before or the week of graduation, and the doctor's like, “Hey, you're gonna need back surgery to remove the bulging disc in your back.” I'm like, “OK, great. I can barely walk, so sign me up. Whatever you can do make me feel better.” And they're like, “Well, you're not gonna be able to keep your pilot slot if you proceed with the surgery.” And I'm not gonna lie and say it was my end all dream to be a pilot, but you go through all four years thinking you're gonna fly, you're pretty fired up for it, we're a week away from graduation, and then it's like, hey, the rug is just pulled. But I had to make a decision right there where it's like, “Hey, I'd rather be able to walk and be pain free than fly.” And so that was a pretty easy decision at that point. And then the next part is, what you alluded to, is where things got a little tricky. So being just a couple days before walking across the stage and saluting the secretary of the Air Force, I'm like, “So what's my job going to be?” I don't even know what else is available in the Air Force. I didn't have to focus on this.” And they're like, “Well, I'm just the flight doc. Go talk to the personnel office over in Vandy, and they'll get you taken care of.” So, I walk — or hobble — on over there, And I'm like, “Hey, Jake DeRuyter, I told the flight doc to give y'all a call, you know, to get me a new job. What's my life look like? What are we doing next?” And she just goes, “Well, there was a big missileer crisis, and we're really desperate for missileers. So, you're gonna be missiles now.” And I'm just, like — my jaw dropped.   Naviere Walkewicz Not what you expected to hear.   Jake DeRuyter  Not what I wanted and like, not to downplay missiles, just not what I wanted to join the Air Force to do, right? That's... I'm just like, standing there in shock. And she's like, “Are you OK?” And I'm like, “I kind of want to jump off my room on top of Vandy, but you know, it's gonna be fine. Do I get some preferences? Do I have any say in this?” Just assigning that to kind of seems aggressive. She goes, “Well, I guess I can take your preferences down.” And I'm just like, “Why didn't you lead with that? That would have been great.” And so she's like, “Well, I need to submit these right now. So, what do you want to do?” I'm like, “Well, what are my options? I don't even know what other AFSC's there are.” So, that becomes a very frantic hour of me calling all my teachers. I was a management major — I highly recommend that. One of the best decisions of my life was going through the management department. And I call my teachers and they're like, “Hey, stick with something business related, like contracting, acquisitions, finance. If you put one of those three down, you're guaranteed to do it.” I'm like, “OK, sweet. Sounds like it sure bets on me. Like, that, sounds easy enough.” but they made you put down five. And, you know, you always hear the horror stories where if you don't put down something, it defaults to the needs of the Air Force, right? So I think I put down like PA, just because I was like, “There's no way they'll pick me for that. There's barely any PA officers.” And I, for the life of me, couldn't tell you what I put in the fifth spot. And so, I walk out of there kind of dejected. I'm like, “Man, my whole life just changed in the span of an hour. No idea what the next— I don't know where I'm gonna be living. I don't know what my job's gonna be like. What in the world's going on?” So, the next day we're all sitting in one of those final briefings, you know, “Hey, here's how you PCS. Here's how you do XYZ.” Right? As the meeting's about to kick off, that same tech sergeant — God, I'd give her a big hug now — she walks up to me with some paperwork and says, “Congratulations, sir.” And I'm looking at her like the person just told me my life was over the day before, so I'm not exactly happy to see this person. And then I look at the paper, and it just says, “Goodfellow Air Force Base.” I had no idea where in the world that was, what job that was or anything. I just knew it wasn't Vandenberg for missileer training. So I just look at her and go, “I'm not missiles?” She's like, “You're not missiles.” I stand up, give her a big old hug. You know, they're trying to start a briefing. They're like, “Sir, please sit down for...” “Sorry, I'm too happy right now.” So yeah, that started me off on my journey to San Angelo, Texas, which I didn't really know what I was getting into there, but, yeah, going intel kind of led me to where I am now in life. And looking back on it now, all the crazy things that happened, it put me where I am now, and so, I'm very thankful for the things and how they all ended up and put me in a position where I can give back to the community now and really serve the Air Force and fellow grads in a much better capacity than I ever could have while on active duty.   Naviere Walkewicz  05:30 Well, it's so interesting because, you know, you think about the Air Force Academy as a place where they teach you to be able to make decisions on the fly, or to make the best calculated decision you can at the time.What leadership lessons do you think you called upon in that frantic moment of well, not only can you not be a pilot now because we're going to have this surgery, but now you have to pick an AFSC. What do you think you drew upon to guide you through that in a kind of a leadership manner?   Jake DeRuyter  06:02 Yeah, the biggest thing was just staying calm and realizing,  OK, whatever happens, happens, I can't change the past. I can only deal with the information given, and push forward. I could sit there and get upset with myself or upset at the world, but that doesn't do anything. It's like, “All right, how do we take action?? How we take that next step to get over this?” Because you want to be in control of your life as much as possible, going forward, right? And choosing your AFSC, arguably, is probably one of the biggest things you could possibly choose in life, next to your spouse and things like that. And that determines, however, what your entire Air Force career is going to be. So yeah, doing that in the hour was definitely very frantic. But, one of the biggest things I really pride myself on, and really want to encourage others is the connections you make throughout your Academy experience, through active duty, in your life — those are the people that are going to help you in those dark times, those tough times. And lean on those people. And the only way you can lean on them is if you prove to them that they can lean on you when they need help, right? As that's one of the things I make a pillar in my life is, when those friends are in a dark time, I want to be the one that, “Hey, I'll be there for you.” That's always one thing I'm passionate about, and what I centered my leadership philosophy around.   Naviere Walkewicz  07:15 I love that. I think you just kind of hit on it, right? You have this network, and I imagine your family is part of that — your dad being a graduate. What role did he play in this moment in your life, and how did you navigate that with him?   Jake DeRuyter  07:30 Yeah, he was awesome, and he was a big reason why I went to the Academy. He always did a really good job of putting that as an option but not forcing it or not shoving it down my throat. And I was really thankful to him for the life me and my sister had growing up, and all the crazy places we moved to and everything. And I didn't really know what I wanted to do, as you hinted in the preview. I didn't apply anywhere else because I didn't really know what I wanted to do when I grew up. And he was like, “Hey, the Academy was always a great place, and worst case, they tell you what to do.” And he's like, “Hey, if you want a similar life to where you grew up, I attribute everything to that, and that's kind of what led me there.” So yeah, you better believe after calling my teachers to figure out what AFSC I should do, he was my next call to be like, “Hey, I knew you always wanted me to fly, but that's not working anymore. So what do you think?” So, he's been a tremendous help my entire life. I mean, I talk to him at least every week. So, yeah, huge help there.   Naviere Walkewicz  08:27 That's amazing. So you went on to be an intel officer, and what was that like? And then how did you decide that it was going to be time to move on to transitioning out of the military.   Jake DeRuyter  08:42 Yeah, so intel wasn't exactly a great fit for me, and what I was like trying to do. You know, when you're told your intel, I imagine— I knew nothing. So I'm like, “Oh, I'll be a spy. I'll be James Bond. I'll be the CIA. None of those were remotely true. So, I got stationed in San Antonio, Texas, for my first job, which was great. I love San Antonio. I worked with some amazing people. Our mission was a little funky. We were doing defensive cyber ops as it was kind of standing up. So, doing intel support for a mission that doesn't really know what they're doing is a little difficult at the time. Now, knock on wood, hopefully things have gotten a lot better since I was there, but building the plane as you're flying was our moniker that we would use. And so it was definitely challenging. And then a lot of it just felt like doing homework and giving briefings over and over again. So, you have a lot of hours in the SCIF doing researching on different cyber threats and then going and briefing the commanders. It was a cool job; I learned a ton. But it wasn't very fulfilling for me. I wanted to get out, be more helpful to other people and have more of a direct impact. And so that led me to teaching ROTC at Texas State, which was a great three years, and really kind of re-blued me. I loved that job. Can't recommend it enough for people that are looking to take a break from their career field. But then when they said, “Hey, you got to go back to intel,” that was my big decision, or my the point where I was like, “All right, I don't think an active-duty career is left in the cards for me. I'm gonna take my next step, moving on.”   Naviere Walkewicz  10:09 So, you even talked about before you decided to transition out of the Air Force, you had pivoted within your career field and took a temporary job outside of your career field as an ROTC instructor, and you said it re-blued. You talk about that and how did it grow you as a leader? I mean, what did you learn about yourself in that?   Jake DeRuyter  10:29 I learned that I really cared about the people more than the operational mission, and so, building up the people, building out the future lieutenants. Like, “Hey, that's how I can better serve the Air Force.” And the whole reason I got the job was because they had to give a waiver for me, because I was technically still a lieutenant, which was not allowed. But I was really upfront with my leadership and my intel job, and they knew I didn't love the career field and I wasn't really a good fit for that world. But they're like, “Hey, Jake's out, great at recruiting. He's good at getting people to go out and do things and help others. He'd be a natural fit there.” So they called all the ROTC leadership to vouch for me to get that job. And then one of the biggest things I took away is that when you go to the Academy, if you're in the Academy, you're in. You have a spot in the Air Force, assuming you pass all your classes, you don't get kicked out for X, Y, Z reasons, and then you'll have a job. ROTC is completely different. You could have 4.0, max your PT scores, be the perfect cadet. And then the Air Force decides, “Hey, we're only taking 40% this year,” which happened my second year in the job and we just had to lose half of our class. So, learning to deal with that rejection when there's nothing that you personally could have done was really challenging. And we had a ton of mentorship sessions with the cadets. “Hey, what are second, tertiary options?” Things like that. Kind of like what I did where it's like, “You're going to be— the doors will get slammed in your face over and over again in life. How do you respond to that, that resiliency and then that flexibility to adapt and overcome?” I mean, those are stuff I'll take with me for the rest of my life.   Naviere Walkewicz  12:01 Wow. And so you got to be a mentor in a way for those Air Force ROTC cadets, if they didn't get a slot, and kind of navigating. And then you found yourself in that seat when you decided to transition yourself, right?   Jake DeRuyter  12:14 Yeah. So, they were gonna send me to another intel role, and I had just met my wife at the time. We were gonna get married soon. I'm like, “Man, the time to deploy and kind of live the Air Force life isn't my main goal anymore, and so I tried to push out my separation date as long as possible, so I had time to do the job search and really see what else is out there. And I didn't really know what I wanted to be once again. But I was like, “Hey, I love living here in Austin, Texas. I figure I can get something tech related or sales related,” I'm kind of naturally inclined to both of those things. And one of my classmates, Keith Link,  he reached out to me because I host a big March Madness pool every year for a ton of grads. And he's like, “Hey, man, just started this role here. I think you'd be a great fit for the company. We're trying to build out our Air Force team. Our boss is a Navy grad. Would you be interested in interviewing us?” And then I was like, “Yeah, man, that sounds great.” You know, I'd still be working with the Air Force in a tech- slash sales-type role. I'm like, “Yeah, this is everything that I wanted. Sounds awesome…” having, once again, no idea I was getting into. But I go through the interview process and I'm trying to sell myself on SkillBridge, trying to get that free internship saying,  “Hey, I could be a free worker for y'all for a couple of months here.” I'm trying to sell myself. And at the end of the interview process, John Podolak, '88 Navy grad, I believe. He's like, “Jake, you've had a bunch of people vouch for you. I really believe in the grad network; it doesn't matter which Academy you went to.” He said, “Hey, if you're gonna come and do SkillBridge with us, I want you to know you have a job offer at the end of it.” And he handed me my job offer right there. I think we were four months out, so I was in shock. To this day I can't believe it. He took the risk on me that coming fresh in a completely separate career field, no background besides being able to speak Air Force. And it all goes back to our Long Blue Line. I don't know what Navy calls it, but it's a “Hey, we all have similar backgrounds.”   Naviere Walkewicz  14:17 Long Blue Navy Line, maybe? I'm not sure.   Jake DeRuyter  14:21 Yeah. He's like, “Hey, I know I could put trust in you because of your background, what you're all about.” and that's something that I really internalized and leading to my role now. It's like, “Hey, we'll give you the benefit of the doubt if you're a fellow grad,” right? Doesn't matter which Academy, you know? In particular, we're gonna favor the Air Force. But yeah, that's like, one thing I just really want to make a pillar of my life. Like I said earlier, it's like, hey, I want to help out fellow grads. Because if it wasn't for Keith and John taking a risk on me out of the blue, I wouldn't be where I am today.   Naviere Walkewicz  14:53 It seems like that's been a thread in your life. You know, finding a network and supporting and taking care of people, and then seeing that reciprocated to help continue to fuel what is important to you. Talk a little bit about what that transition was like, though, because it almost sounds too easy. I mean, has it been just rainbows since you kind of took that leap.   Jake DeRuyter  15:17 Oh, God, no. Year 1, any career field, especially, you know, a sales driven one, it's a challenge. You don't know what you're doing. You're fish out of water. I was going to a million different Air Force bases, walking on base, trying to meet people, not even knowing what I was doing, let alone convincing other people what we do. And so that was a challenge. I think I went to 19 different bases my first year; I was on a plane every chance I could get, just trying to make a name for myself and say, “Hey, I'm Jake DeRuyter, we can do anything help you. What do you need?” And people were always like, “Well, we don't need anything. Like, we want one specific thing. Can you do this?” And so you really kind of have to find yourself, because the Air Force, especially as an officer, you're leading a team, right? Or you're part of some overarching team. But in this role, when I started, it was me, myself and I. So that was just a huge lifestyle change. It was a little refreshing. That's like, “Hey, I don't have to worry about my cadets or my airmen outside of the job.” And this was a nice refresh. But like everything else, it's like, “Hey, I am the only one providing for my family, to pay the bills,” everything like that. Like, how hard am I going to work? And how am I going to put in the effort to grind day in and day out. Just getting good at any job, you can't just have one great day, just like working out. You can't just have one great day and expect to bench 500 pounds, right? It's the things that you do day in and day out and building up the right habits and having the right communication with people, and then just being relatable. One of the other biggest things: Say you're gonna do something and follow up and do it. We always joke that it's a weird that it's a skill to follow up with people and respond to them in a meaningful time. It shouldn't be, but that's just one of those things where people need help. We want to be the ones that are there. And it's just doing that over and over again. Because, man, that Year 1 was like, “Why did I pick this job? Why did I pick this career choice? I should have gone into consulting. I should have gotten started in literally anything else.” Thank God I stuck with it. It's, again, been one of the greatest decisions I've made, and we have an awesome team, but we've brought in a few other Academy grads with us as well, and it's been a lot of fun since.   Naviere Walkewicz  17:31 May I ask why you stuck with it when it and everything against in your core was, “Why did I do this? I could have picked anything else?” Why did you stay?   Jake DeRuyter  17:41 I really wanted to prove it to myself and really prove it to Keith and John. You know, they took the risk on me, so I didn't want to let them down. And I think that was the biggest thing, where it's like, “Hey, you guys took the risk on me out of the blue.” And I'm like— you know, Keith and I were classmates, you know, we were never close, right? Like, you know, we barely kept in touch over the years. And it's just like, “Hey, you stuck your name out.” Like, this is the real world, right? In the Air Force, if you want to do the full 20 years you can do 20 years, right? In the real world, it's “Hey, if you're not have a nice day.” You gotta find new employment. And so I was like, “I'm not gonna let you guys down. I'm gonna fight for this.” Being a small company, we're not a big name brand, right? No one knows who we are. So, it's a little bit that underdog mentality, and just like, “Hey, how am I gonna outhustle the next guy? How am I gonna outhustle XYZ company that's a competitor?” And it's just that competitive drive that I've just always had. I'm not playing sports every day anymore, but how do you still stay competitive and still stay active and still have that drive to be the best you can be, and go on and go forth?   Naviere Walkewicz  18:52 Well, it sounds like this competitive drive is something you said, it was something you've always had. Can you share a story from when you recall, when, gosh, even something, you know, back in early-Jake days that this is a moment I realized, “I'm a competitive person. I'm driven by this desire to prove myself.” Is there something that pops to mind? Because I can only just imagine if it was already part of your core when you kind of knew this about yourself?   Jake DeRuyter  19:18 Oh, yeah, I've got a good one. So, my dad was coaching with the Academy going into my junior year of high school, and his goal was always to get me all three years at one school, which we had at the time, we had never lived anywhere longer than three years in a row. So, that was a tough task. And I just finished up my junior year of playing football, and things were going good, and then he gets a job offer down in Texas, and he comes to me. He's like, “Hey, what do you think? I don't want to move you going into your senior year, but I want to talk to you first before, yeah, I make any decisions.” And I'm like, “Wait, I get the chance to play Texas high school football. Are you kidding me? Let's do this. I get one year for it. That's awesome.” So, yeah, that's the No. 1 story that comes to my mind where it's like, “Hey, I want to take the risk on myself and be competitive and go play the best of the best.”   Naviere Walkewicz  20:18 Play with the best of the best. And that does seem to be a theme, right? Air Force Academy, putting yourself out there, jumping in full feet into this new role. You know, what have you learned about yourself? You talked about motivating. It's different when you have people that you have to take care of, and I guess maybe your translation is your family you have to take care of. But how do you motivate yourself when it's a you, yourself and you — you said “me, myself, and I” and I couldn't think of the other way to say it. But when it's just you, what keeps you motivated?   Jake DeRuyter  20:52 Yeah, I'm definitely very externally motivated. So it's my team. When you want to talk about the Monday-through-Friday grind, and then my wife and, the overarching family, growing up, family has always been really close and a huge motivator for me. And, you know, I've just always wanted to be able to provide for others and provide for myself, and you never want to have to worry about that next meal, or the job, employment — things like that. And just saying, “Hey, you know, these opportunities you get there — don't take it for granted.” And it's like you've got to fight and earn everything. You're not just going to be handed out anything. And that's just something always back in my mind, where it's like, if I'm not doing it like somebody else is going to, I'm going to lose that opportunity, or someone's going to step in, right? And so it's just one thing where it's just being like the Academy grad, like you don't, we'll move up to the name brand. That's another huge thing I always have in my head. It's like, I want to represent the brand. Well, I'm like, “How do you do that?” Is because, like, we've all met those people. It's like, hey man, like, you know, like, shoot. Like, “I really like you, but like, I don't think you represent us. Well, I never want to be that type of person, right? And so that's one of those things I just really like the kitchen, going day in and day out.   Naviere Walkewicz  22:01 So the daily grind… You said, in the first year you think you visited like 19 bases just to try and figure it out. What does the daily grind look like now?   Jake DeRuyter  22:10 Completely changed, thankfully, I really only focus on three, which still has me plenty busy, but at least I'm not in all these crazy places, which is nice. Now it's weird because I set my own schedule. No one's ever asking, “Hey, you got to be here at 7:30 and clock out at 4:30.” It's a complete polar oppositie of the Air Force. Like, if I want to go golf every Friday at noon, no one's stopping me from doing that, except for, that'd probably be a detriment to my team and our success, right? And so it's this complete mindset change where it's like, “Hey, I'm going to still put in a full day's work and get everything I can out of the day.” But I'm not sitting down at my desk. So when I'm home, I'm following up with teams making sure everything is good internally at the company, and then a lot of the time I'm on the road. So, I go to Eglin Air Force Base a lot, Hill Air Force Base and Edwards. Those are my three where I'm constantly rotating through. So, if anyone's at those bases, please let me know. Love to reach out to you guys, grab a beer, dinner or anything. You know, it's a lot of lonely nights in the hotel. So, every chance I get to meet up with fellow grads, see what else is going on — I love taking advantage of that opportunity. I've done that numerous times, and that's one of my favorite things and one of my favorite parts of the job. So, I don't know what a standard day looks like for me. That's one thing I love about this job. And kind of why I stuck with it, so I'm never bored. No day is the same. You're always finding a new opportunity, someone new to talk to, some new base, a new program, that there's infinite possibilities. It's such a big Air Force and it gives me a chance to stay involved with our community, give back, and just, hey, if there's another grad out there that's looking to separate and needs a job, any grad — I've offered this plenty of times and stepped through it — any grad that's trying to separate, you have an instant interview at a minimum, with us right away. Please reach out anytime.   Naviere Walkewicz  24:03 That's amazing. I think you know you talk about there is no standard, but maybe you actually... the standard is that you hold yourself to a standard so that you're seeking opportunities when they're there, you're prepared, and you're trying to connect with other grads and make ways for them as well, or at least a potential opportunity. Let's talk about that, because I find— you know, you're a 2015 graduate, you're in your career trajectory, and you've made time to become the chapter president for the Central Texas chapter. And, you know, chapter services, that's when you bring grads together. I don't know how you manage that, as well as build a business. Let's talk about that. How did that even happen?   Jake DeRuyter  24:43 Yeah, so Mike Lambert started our chapter. He's a '70 grad, one of the coolest, most informative, just unique individuals. He is the greatest guy. Now, I wish I could live half the life that he has when I get to be his age. I reached out to him a couple years ago now saying, “Hey, the baseball team's in town playing UT, we have plans to all go to it, like, what's going on? Because I, this is bad on me... I didn't know that the chapter existed at the time. And he's like, “Oh shoot. I didn't know about it. Yeah, that sounds great. I'll send out a message, let's start rallying people to go as a big group.” I think we got maybe 20 to 30 people. It's a decent showing. And then after he's like, “Hey, I'm looking to pass this on to somebody. Would you be interested in it?” And I'm like, “Yeah, of course. I don't really know what it entails.” And then without me kind of having a say in it, everyone there is like, “Oh, hey, let's all have a vote right now. Raise your hand if you want Jake s the next president,” and Neil Wendt, Harry Keyes, a bunch of other grads were there all raising hands, like, “Hey, here's our new president.” So, yeah, I mean, I definitely wanted it, not like I didn't have a say in it, but yeah, it was nice having that little motivational push from everybody else. And then Neil Wendt, he's been my VP, and almost had a year going just now, so we still got a lot of work to do. We're still building a lot of things, but we're pretty proud of the steps that we've taken to kind of build this community. But yeah, it's definitely tough. You got work and then home life, and then family, and then you're just like, “Oh shoot, I still got to do this.” So, I mean, we all got a million things on a plate, so just like the Academy teaches you, how do you put 25 hours into a 24-hour day?   Naviere Walkewicz  26:18 Right? So I found that curious, what you'd mentioned. You said, “I didn't even know we had a chapter,” but you reached out to Mike Lambert. So did you already have a mentor-mentee relationship with him, or how did you know him?   Jake DeRuyter  26:29 No, I heard about it a little bit before that, because I kind of, in the back of my head, knew it existed. I just didn't know what all entailed. And it didn't say Austin. It just said to Central Texas. So, I didn't really know what all it meant. And then meeting with him and getting involved with him, and all in the whole group that he's started and been a part of for a long time. Yeah, it's really cool hearing their stories. And we do a monthly lunch every Friday or every first Friday of the month, and we get to hear all the cool war stories and everything. It's honestly one of the things I look forward to most every month is listening in to those guys. There's just so many funny connections all over the place. And, yeah, it's awesome. If anyone's listening in Austin, we'll be doing it again next week, or the first Friday this upcoming month of April.   Naviere Walkewicz  27:13 That's wonderful. So talk a little bit about what it's been like being the chapter president. You know, I think when we think about times at the Academy, you're leading a group of your peers, and obviously these peers are various years. But what has that been like, and what have you seen to be challenging so far?   Jake DeRuyter  27:29 Yeah, so it's completely different than on active duty, because you have positional power, right? And your airmen, the younger officers, they've got to listen to you, right? The chapter president sounds cool. Like, what authority do I have? Right? Absolutely nothing. It's just more of I'm the one coordinating and leading the charge, right? So you got to be the one to say what you're going to do and actually follow through and do it. And that's tough when you've got a million other competing priorities, and you're always trying to schedule your time and so I've been thankful I've had a great team. There's been times I can't make that monthly lunch and your others fill in. So we've had a pretty good core group there. But trying to find ways to motivate people to participate is extremely difficult unless they have like a direct buy in or impact or return on their investment. I think I saw in our last AOG election, we had like a 22% voting rate. And so we see that at the local chapters too, where it's tough finding people, so I'll go on LinkedIn, just trolling, just looking for anyone that says Air Force Academy grad, outside of any major city in Texas besides Austin. So, trying to get that direct touch. But it definitely takes time and effort and you've got to be willing to show that you're willing to go forth and put it in. Otherwise everyone's gonna be like, “Hey, I'm just getting another spam email. Why would I listen to this?”   Naviere Walkewicz  28:43 Right? And I just find it even more just impressive. What compelled you to reach out in the first place and say, “Hey, I'd like to get more involved?” Because you were already doing all these things through your job. So why the additional responsibility?   Jake DeRuyter  29:00 I think that's a great question. I think it's just because… You said: I was already doing it, and so I was like, “Hey, this is a natural fit for what I enjoy doing and what I could truly care about.” And as we've mentioned, all those grads in the past have helped me out and made me who I am today. You know from my dad and  my teachers, the officers that are ahead of me. It's like, “Hey, how do I give back?” Because I know I wouldn't be standing where I am without our fellow grads and then the whole overarching community. So it's like, “What little can I do to make one person's life that 1% better?” I'll take that chance any day of the week.   Naviere Walkewicz  29:33 Well, we talked about some of the challenges you've experienced and your deep desire to give back. So, share a success that you've had since being chapter president, and what's really kind of filled your bucket in this giving back piece.   Jake DeRuyter  29:44 Oh, so we did a watch party for the Air Force/Army game; that's pretty standard chapter president stuff like, “Oh, hey, you threw a watch party.” That's not the big thing. But the really cool part was the people that showed up. And I feel horrible. I forget his name right now, but the oldest living graduate, he had his daughter drive him because, “Hey, I'm not going to miss this.” And so I was like, whoa. Like, that was like...   Naviere Walkewicz  30:13 I'm going to look that up myself. That's amazing.   Jake DeRuyter  30:16 Having that moment like, “Wow, that's really cool.” Where it's like, “Hey, that wouldn't have happened without the work of my team  putting this together. And, yeah, putting together watch parties is nothing crazy. But it's still— hearing those stories and meeting those people that were there when this first started. Like, we were joking earlier: They don't even know what Founders Day is because they were there for it. That wasn't really a thing for them. Now it's like our annual celebration, but to them it's just like, “Oh yeah. We just started it.” Like, that's just how...   Naviere Walkewicz  30:48 ...on the shoulders of giants, right?   Jake DeRuyter  Yes.   Naviere Walkewicz  Jake, it just sounds like you had such an incredible ride so far. And I know you're you know your journey is in the midst of it, and I can't wait to hear how you'll continue to do so as a graduate, as we support you. But right now, I'd like to ask you some specific leadership lessons, the first one really pertaining to you: What do you do every day to be a better leader?   Jake DeRuyter  31:12 That reach out. Like, always that checking in. I don't necesarilly schedule it, but if I ever have 20 or 30, minutes, nothing's on my calendar for work, or things are slow, it's like, “Hey, who haven't I talked to in a while?” Whether it's one of my classmates, one of my freshmen, one of the people that served with me… And then I spend a lot of time on the road, so, I'm driving. I always try to reach out and call and reconnect with people that you haven't talked to in X amount of months. Because I always know that I really appreciate when I always hear from people like that. And so that's like one thing I always want to do is like, “Hey, what's going on in life? Where are you at now?” That's what's so cool about the Air Force community as a whole: People are moving, doing cool new jobs all over the place. So, I love getting to hear those stories and truly listening in. The leadership question: Actually listen. Take interest and don't just be waiting to say what you want to say next. Like, actually, like, “Oh, hey, there's some pretty cool stories out there. And people are doing some amazing, unique things.” Shoot, look at Wyatt Hendrickson this weekend. One of the greatest college sports upsets of all time.   Naviere Walkewicz  32:19 Of all time — 100%. I think that's a really great way— just even like rallying together and talking about that. I mean, what a great way to… “Hey, I haven't talked to you in a while. Did you see Wyatt? What he did? You know, it's just amazing.   Jake DeRuyter  32:32 Yep, exactly. Wyatt, if you're ever in Austin, drinks are on me, man, congrats.   Naviere Walkewicz  32:38 That's outstanding. All right, so tell me, then, Jake, what would you share as something that an aspiring leader can do every day? So, that's something you do personally. What might you share with an aspiring leader that they can do today that will reap benefits down the road?   Jake DeRuyter  32:53 Yeah, don't just worry about your own career and your own life, because whether you look at officers, coaches— a lot of people can be judged based on the people that they've built up rather than their own career. We see that all the time in coaching, and it's like, if you're truly worried about the development of the guys around you, you're going to build up yourself and your whole team and everybody and so make that the primary goal. Not just, “Hey, how do I get that next job? How do I get that next rank?” Because people are going to spot that as being phony really quick. So, be genuine, and pump up the other ones around you. Because a rising tide lifts all ships.   Naviere Walkewicz  33:27 Gosh. And like I said, you're kind of in this rise in your career and in your life. You know, if you were to look back and talk to your younger self, Jake, whether your cadet self or even your child self, is there any advice you would give yourself, knowing what you know today?   Jake DeRuyter  33:44 Yeah, the biggest thing is be more involved. I think especially as a cadet and in early officer life, I was just like, “How do I get through the day? What do I do to get through class, or to get through the SCIF life?” Or something like that. “How do I get to the part of life where I'm spending time with my friends, or having fun?” I definitely wish I was much more involved at the Academy and as a young lieutenant, like, I definitely took things for granted back then, and that's probably the biggest thing I changed, is like, “Hey, I definitely had the extra time.” I could have given back more at that time, and maybe I'm trying to make up for a little bit for that now.   Naviere Walkewicz  34:19 Well, I think it's never too late to start. And what are you doing now that fills your bucket in that way?   Jake DeRuyter  34:25 Oh, yeah, the biggest things, the AOG chapter presidency and helping other grads transition. I can't tell you how many fellow grads I've talked to as they're looking for SkillBridge, trying to figure out what that next step looks like. It doesn't stop. Everyone's hitting their five years coming up. It happens every year, right? So there's always that influx, especially those that aren't flying. It's tough making that jump. You know, it's a scary world out there. And I said, it's just you, yourself and I. Whatever the opposite of that is. It's like, “Hey, I know I didn't feel like I had the resources when I was initially getting out through traditional means of the Air Force.” So I want to be that person that's like, “Hey, I'll offer that olive branch anytime.” So yeah, love to help out wherever I can.   Naviere Walkewicz  35:13 Well, those connections are so important, and I think one of the things I really appreciate about you, Jake, is really recognizing that connection. I think you even shared with me a story, and maybe you can share it here, about how you still are in touch with your sponsor family?   Jake DeRuyter  35:26 Yeah. I went to high school in the Springs for a little bit, and the best man in my wedding, his family was the one that sponsored me. So, they had sponsored cadets for years, sponsoring the basketball team through the 2000s. Then in high school, he made me a bet. He's like, “Hey, you idiot, if there's any way that you get in, I'll sponsor.” He's like, “I'm done sponsoring cadets, but if you make it in, you'll be my last one.”   Naviere Walkewicz  And so you were the exception for him.   Jake DeRuyter  Yeah, I was the exception to the rule. So yeah, we still get together every year to go to the opening round of March Madness. So we just did Lexington, Kentucky, for those games, and then next year we'll be doing Tampa. So yeah, college sports and that competition that you talked about that's a huge center piece of my life, and I center all my travel and my fun around it. So yeah, they've been awesome, and a huge part of why I am or where I am today as well.   Naviere Walkewicz  36:11 I love that. Well, we're going to ask for Jake's final thoughts next, but before we do, I'd like to take a moment and thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. The podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio and is available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Be sure to stay in touch. Watch, subscribe and listen to all episodes of Long Blue Leadership at longblueleadership.org. All right, Jake, we're ready to hear your final thoughts. It's been incredible spending time with you today.   Jake DeRuyter  36:39 I appreciate it Naviere. Very humbled to be here. You just had Secretary Wilson. I'm sure you've had some astronauts and generals on here, so the fact that you picked me: I was just like, “Man, that really means a lot.” So I just want to say thank you. Yeah, I don't want to repeat myself too much, but yeah, any fellow grads, if you're ever in the Austin area, love to meet up, grab a beer, whatever we can do to help each other out. Just whatever we can do to give back to the Long Blue Line.   Naviere Walkewicz  37:03 Well, thank you for never being too busy for our graduates. I think that was one of the things that really stood out to me throughout everything you've shared, is you know, you care about people, and it's really translated to how you care about our fellow graduates, and I can't wait to see all the amazing things you'll continue to do. So thanks for being a leader in our Long Blue Line.   Jake DeRuyter  37:22 Yeah, I appreciate that, Naviere. Thank you so much.   Naviere Walkewicz  37:25 Well, Jake, one more time, thank you again, and I'm Naviere Walkewicz, thank you for joining us on Long Blue Leadership until next time.   KEWORDS Resilience, Adaptability, Mentorship, Network, Long Blue Line, Leadership, Development, Career Transition, Service, Community Support, Grit, Connections, Risk-Taking, Personal Growth, Military to Civilian Transition, Air Force Academy, Leadership Philosophy, Professional Networking, Continuous Learning, Relationship Building, Giving Back   The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation    

In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Christian Evans shares his journey from a jovial cadet to a dedicated leader focused on uplifting others. SUMMARY Christian reflects on transformative experiences during his time at the Air Force Academy, the importance of mentorship, and the impact of community engagement. Christian discusses navigating career transitions, the power of giving back, and the significance of leading with love. He emphasizes resilience, personal growth, and the need to engage the next generation of leaders.   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK   TAKEAWAYS Christian emphasizes the importance of humor in leadership. Transformative experiences can lead to personal growth and leadership development. Mentorship plays a crucial role in guiding younger generations. Navigating career transitions requires building a supportive network. Giving back to the community enhances personal fulfillment. Engaging the next generation is vital for sustaining leadership values. Resilience is key to overcoming failures and learning from them. Leading with love fosters a supportive environment. Personal growth is a continuous journey influenced by experiences. Finding avenues to contribute to the community is essential for leadership.   EPISODE CHAPTERS 00:00  Introduction to Leadership Journeys 02:56  Transformative Experiences in Cadet Life 06:10  The Impact of Mentorship and Community 08:52  Navigating Career Transitions 11:49  The Power of Giving Back 14:50  Engaging the Next Generation 17:55  Lessons in Resilience and Growth 21:00  Leading with Love 23:55  Reflections on Personal Growth 26:59  Conclusion and Future Aspirations   ABOUT CHRISTIAN EVANS BIO Christian Evans is a Business Development Executive at Olsson where he leads sales and growth efforts in Texas and Colorado. Christian previously worked as Managing Partner of Greenwood Capital lower middle market PE firm, Wealth Advisor at Morgan Stanley, Capital Markets Sales Manager at Highland Capital Management. Prior to joining Highland, he worked as an associate on the Banking, Investing, and Lending team at Goldman Sachs. Christian started his professional career in the United States Air Force as a space operations officer at Cape Cod AFS, MA and an acquisitions program manager at the Space and Missile Systems Center at Los Angeles AFB, CA. Christian is an active leader in the Dallas community sitting on the Visiting Nurses Association of Texas Board of Directors on the finance and development committees and on the Friends Barack Obama Male Leadership Academy on the Development committee. Christian is an active member of the Urban Land Institute and The Real Estate Council. Christian is a 2008 Graduate of the United States Air Force Academy where he majored in Management. As a Cadet, he competed on the Fighting Falcon football team, served as President of the Tuskegee Airmen Club, and became a member of Kappa Alpha Psi Incorporated. He completed his MBA at the SMU Cox School of Business in 2017. Christian is married to Dr. Candace Evans and they enjoy their time with their son, Cash. - Copy courtesy of the U.S. Air Force Academy Association of Graduates    CONNECT WITH CHRISTIAN LINKEDIN  |  ASSOCIATION OF GRADUATES       ALL PAST LBL EPISODES  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS       FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Guest:    CHRISTIAN EVANS '08  |  Host:  Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99   Naviere Walkewicz  00:00 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership, the podcast where we share insights on leadership through the lives and experiences of Air Force Academy graduates. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. For Christian Evans, USAFA Class of 2008, the journey was arduous, and even now, though he's dedicated himself to a life of lifting others up, he still thinks of himself as a work in progress, becoming the model for grace, giving back and leadership that he is today. Christian, thanks for being here today.   Christian Evans  00:28 Thank you so much for having me. Truly honored and flattered to be here.   Naviere Walkewicz  00:34 What were you like growing up? — I guess maybe is the first question.   Christian Evans  00:38 I've always been a jovial person. I've always had a sense of humor, and I've always kind of been a strategic thinker, if that makes sense. So, while I was somewhat the life of the party to a certain extent, or someone on the team that would galvanize the teammates, it was mostly through humor or engaging outside of anything serious, because everything's so serious, right?   Naviere Walkewicz Right.   Christian Evans  So, growing up and even at the Academy, I always kind of used humor as a way to put myself out there, so to speak, right? To kind of get people's moods to calm down. Yeah, I just always was more focused on what I was doing, and never focused on “I should be leading in this space,” outside of just knowing if you do well in school, get good grades… All right, that's leadership by doing. “I'm in NHS, I'm in the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. I'm doing all these service things. And even though I'm not the president or vice president, I'm still active, serving a greater purpose.” So, yeah, growing up, I was a good kid, liked to have fun, maybe a little crass at times.   Naviere Walkewicz  02:05 Your sophomore year, you know, your three-degree, you kind of had this decision point. What was it that helped you make that decision? Was there an incident? Was there a moment? Was it just a path you were on?   Christian Evans  02:20 There was definitely an incident. At the end of our sophomore year, we did not have the season that we wanted as a football team, so the night of the game, after the game, I was still underaged, and I drank alcohol and the Academy found out about it. And so, I had to go through that rehabilitation process, which wasn't fun. I think it was six months where you're restricted to the base. At that point, that's when I said, “OK, this isn't a civilian school. You've kind of got to button it up here if you want to stay and actually get something out of it.” So that next year, I made a point during summer school, and even that summer as a cadre for basic, to just really apply myself and try to see, “All right, if I actually apply myself and lead and maybe not make everything a joke, will you see real outcomes?” And I think that's where my first experience of really being able to affect younger cadets and/or younger grads and their experience with the Academy. Because as a basic cadet cadre, I really went out of my way to try to look out for our basics in a way that typically doesn't happen during basic training. And it is what it is, right? Basic training is not summer camp, so it's got to be tough, it's got to be hard. But I definitely — and I think if you ask my basics — I definitely went into the situation with the idea of making it hard, but fair, but also making it enjoyable and something that's worth remembering. And so experiencing that as a cadet and really seeing, “OK, yeah, you're pretty good at this thing, you can motivate people, and you can make them feel good about themselves, and you could help them when they need it, and not make it hard for them to get where they need to go, kind of thing, and really enable them.” That was a great experience for me, and kind of carried into the next year. I got on group staff; I learned that the more that you lean in, there are actual outcomes that come out of it, and you're able to have a positive impact on other people, which, to me, gives me — that's where I get energy, and I feel good about myself. Outside of how I feel about myself is how I can help other people to accomplish whatever it is they kind of want to do.   Naviere Walkewicz  05:04 Wow, it sounds like you took an incident that happened to you all the way back in basic and you found a way to turn it around, to make sure that another basic didn't have to go through what you did. And you probably didn't even realize it at the time when you're going through that self-discovery as a leader and applying yourself, but can you think of a story of where that came into play? Like when you were a cadre for a basic, was there ever a time where you were able to make a difference for a basic that you weren't able to have made for you?   Christian Evans  05:34 Absolutely. One of the things I did — and this is an easy one — was when there was someone that needed meal replacements for whatever reason, or was still hungry at the end of the day, I would help get food and sustenance to them, whether they played sports or not. Obviously doing it for the football guys so that they could maintain weight for when the season starts. But when other non-football people mentioned that they were still hungry, the food was making them upset, things like that. Yeah, I would get them what they needed, right? And I think for that, they felt like somebody cared. I will say, as a cadre, I think the best thing I could have done was just make it a memorable experience through the experiences, right? Like I said, I'm into humor. I like to have fun, and to me, basic training as a cadre was like being a stand-up comedian with the built-in audience, you know? So, I would do bits with the kids, not kids, but they were kids. I would do bits, you know? I would have fun, but within that, it would always be kind of a bigger picture.   Naviere Walkewicz  06:49 Well, I think that's fantastic sharing a bit of your personality, and I think that's also part of leadership, because when we think about what how people lead, it's usually from what they learn from others. So, being able to see that you can be human, and you can use humor, and you can still affect a mission, and especially — maybe people bring in their best self, because they didn't feel that they had to be so fearful, right? I don't know, maybe you touched them in that way.   Christian Evans  07:17 I hope so. Because there was still a lot of fear, I imagine, left in the basic squadron.   Naviere Walkewicz  07:24 Yes. Well, it led me to something you we talked about because you said you had indifference even your senior years. But there was a theme through that as well. You talked about being able to help others, so maybe talk through what you've learned about yourself as a leader in this space of helping others. Has there been a moment in your career now, whether through in the military, or when you transitioned out, where you saw that coming into play more?   Christian Evans  07:49 It's something that I feel is evergreen, for me, is I'm always kind of thinking about, “How can I have an impact on the community around me?” Most recently, since transitioning from active duty into the private sector, I learned a lot. I didn't know much about the industry I was going into that being finance, I was blessed with an opportunity to do an internship with Goldman Sachs during my transition period, while I was still active duty. This was before they had the program they have now, the skill bridge program. I went into a very complex situation with very little information, and going through that process, I was able to reach out to a lot of people to help fill the gap. No. 1, most of the people that I found myself talking to and that had built networks within Goldman and other financial institutions were Navy and overwhelmingly Army grads. So, at that point, and I like that it says Long Blue Leadership, because the Long Blue Line is what we were all sold on coming here, whether you played sports or not, Just about anybody you asked that have made the transition from active duty into a new industry or career that requires a little bit of advocacy and understanding, and people doing some recruiting and all those things — how much it means to have somebody that you could call and learn things that you just don't know. My transition, learning the industry, learning the different steps that you need to take to get to different parts of the industry — I started just documenting resources, built out my network so the people that had helped me and kind of poured into me and mentored me, tried to stay in touch. That is something that I'm pretty good at, is just meeting people and turning a casual introduction into some type of meaningful relationship. And so, when I got a few years in and did my MBA, and kind of went through my process, I put together a one-pager, two-pager, and shared it with the number of younger grads at the time that I kind of adopted as mentees. They were just young grads, or young cadets, in some cases, that had an ambition and that wanted to do something that they didn't really know much about. Being able to give them that information to fill the void earlier in the process — maybe they've got a few years left in the Air Force. OK, they could start preparing themselves through certain things, getting involved in certain organizations. I thought if I could get this information to them earlier, well they could start preparing more for making that transition. And so, after doing that, and over the years, they made it their own thing, and now they have matriculated to some of the top business schools, law schools in America. And so, for me, that showed me the power of “when you learn, teach; when you get, give,” right? I heard that quote a number of years ago. That kind of was something that, after doing that and seeing the outcome, and especially now when I look back, that started maybe, let's say, eight years ago. Well now guys are starting their own funds, and they're working at multiple investment banks and consulting companies, and to me, that was more rewarding than even the accomplishments I had made in my transition. So, I feel very blessed to have been able to do that. But, you know, I definitely, over the time, have made it a mission of mine to ensure that I'm pulling the younger grads in the direction that they want to go, and doing it a little bit earlier in the cycle so that they could get better prepared.   Naviere Walkewicz  12:25 This is really fascinating. What makes you care in this way?   Christian Evans  12:29 At my first base was my first real interaction with the AOG and actual alumni. I got to meet real grads. One in particular was a gentleman, Al Fullerton. I think he was a 1963 grad, and he was medically discharged before he was able to serve. However, he was a grad, and he stayed connected to the organization. And my buddy, Evan Dadoski, who — he would get us to those AOG meetings, and when I and when I had those experiences and when I had the experience with Al, and he would give his time to me, Evan, Brian Campbell, Adam Hood, like go have lunch with us. Got to meet with Flash Wiley while I was up there, you know, Nate Dial went and got his master's while he was up there. And we would go have coffee and get to talk to him and interact with him. And I said, “Man, there is some richness to this,” but those were just really individual connection points. It wasn't like a critical mass, but it did pique my interest in saying, “Oh, there is a richness in a younger grad getting to know a more seasoned grad, or the intergenerational interactions that a lot of times we don't get for whatever reason.”   Naviere Walkewicz  13:57 So, you started seeing and feeling the effects of the Long Blue Line?   Christian Evans  14:01 Yeah, absolutely. It was really just the thought of trying to maximize the talent that God gave me, and in doing that, you can't be indifferent and be a great leader. You can't be indifferent and be the best that you can be.   Naviere Walkewicz  14:19 Certainly, doesn't hurt to be kind of engaging with the vision for where our association's going and to your point, what does your impact look like within there?   Christian Evans  Sure.   Naviere Walkewicz  So, what has that look like, and how has that shaped you as a leader? Do you feel like those are one in the same, like you bring your leadership to it in the way that you are, or has it changed you this kind of service as a leader?   Christian Evans  14:43 Yeah, if anything, I learned that if you do have a passion for how things should be, if you lean in, you galvanize the troops, so to speak, and/or try to find leadership opportunities within the multiple organizations that interact and do things for a cadet. And for grads, find those because it's been very beneficial to me as I have come onto the board and seeing, OK, something like the next generation.   Naviere Walkewicz  15:12 So, can you talk a little bit more about this Next Gen group?   Christian Evans  15:16 Yeah, absolutely. There are certain periods as graduates, where we have big decisions to make, and as an association, the more that we're engaged and helping you to solve for those decision problems, so to speak, the more you'll feel the value was served to you to engage. So, that kind of spurred a conversation with Nate Dial. And, you know, we always kind of have strategy sessions here and there about all kinds of stuff. But in this situation, it was, “Hey, how can we kind of solve for this young alumni or emerging leader alumni engagement?” Because the numbers speak for themselves — it's extremely low. If all grads are engaging at 10%, if you graduated after '95 it's less than 10%. So, Next Gen kind of was born out of that. And so, we started thinking about, “We've still got a lot of people engaged from our previous classes.” And so, I thought if we created some type of working group to start thinking about what can we do to provide this value proposition to that demographic of graduates that are historically disengaged? And engagement is not money, right? It's just showing up to alumni events or coming back to the Academy at any point or whatever, going to a game when the Academy is playing close to you, things of that nature. So that's where we got to the Next Gen. group.   Naviere Walkewicz  16:54 I mean, I think a theme that's been woven through this with you has been, in your journey as a leader, really leaning in. You know, it seems like when you've had these moments of decisions, of applying yourself, you have these continuous wins that seem to have continued to fuel that desire to make further impact and others. Would you say that's accurate?   Christian Evans  17:20 Absolutely. You know, wins have a way of building on themselves, and losses due too. So, incremental big win, small wins — I'm just trying to win. So yeah, to me… and even in the face of a loss, you're still winning, because it's an opportunity to learn, right? I'm sure it's a common theme, but it's true. We all have experienced failure. Nobody wants to talk about it, but everybody experiences it some way. How do you deal with that failure? We talk about resiliency at the Academy, you know? We talk about integrity a lot. We talk about service, we talk about excellence, but we don't talk about failure necessarily, because we're Academy grads. We don't fail, right? We don't fail. But it's true: Even in failure, you're it's an opportunity to win, and the more wins you kind of put together. They cascade, and they grow into great things. And that's kind of where I see, at least my growth and development has been through just a cascading of small, big, intermediate and honestly, putting myself out, taking myself out of my comfort zone, see where the chips fall.   Naviere Walkewicz  18:44 Well, we'd like to hear what your leadership lessons and takeaways are, because there have been really a lot of moments in here that I think everyone has been able to kind of see themselves in, right? You've had moments where you've had to kind of pick yourself up, even when you weren't sure what that looked like, and you did. What, what might you leave with our folks?   Christian Evans  19:04 You know, we go through a lot of leadership training, so it's like a leadership podcast to teach me what I've been training for, for it feels like our whole adult life could seem redundant sometimes. So, I'm not going to give anybody a nugget that they might not have heard before, but something that I've tried to do that maybe, when I think about leadership, has helped me to approach it in a different way, is to always think about leading with love to a certain extent. I don't mean that to be mushy, I mean that to be sincere. Always go into a situation thinking about the person you're dealing with, as opposed to yourself. Little things like I said, we've got a lot of technical and structured education about what leadership is, but how do you actually execute and effectively live it? So for me, it's a very selfless kind of approach. But I always say, “Lead with love,” and that's what I'll continue to do, right? But I don't have any groundbreaking nuggets. I don't think about leadership all the time. It's just in me, right? I think it's in all — most — of us, they made sure of that. But sincerely, leading with love, because there are other obvious nuances and principles to leadership, but to me, that's the one that gets lost the most in translation, sometimes.   Naviere Walkewicz  20:40 Can you share a moment when you led with love and it was maybe a moment where you wouldn't have expected that's the way that you could actually solve something?   Christian Evans  20:53 I wouldn't say I have a specific instance. It's just who I am. So, I don't really have an instance. I think every time that I get the opportunity to be in a leadership situation that's at work, in my day job, that leadership looks a little different than leadership in an AOG board capacity, or leadership in other board service that I do around the town of Dallas, or really leadership within your own peer groups, right? It's just a part of who I am. So I don't necessarily have a specific situation. It's just most of the situations where I found myself having an opportunity to actively lead other people, I try to make sure that I'm implementing that, and I think most people that have gotten to work with me would attest to it.   Naviere Walkewicz  21:57 Well, I can validate that certainly. Just in our interactions together, I think I've seen you lead with love, and it's because you put the human aspect in. How can I help you? — is really how it translates across, and I think that's very powerful. It's maybe not something that people think about, but it's probably highly effective. But even more so, it's incredibly, probably fulfilling.   Christian Evans  22:19 Yeah, I would say one thing I learned is, I don't need much help. I'm gonna go figure it out. But there's a lot of people that don't have that same personality type, and so I think that's important when they don't, is that you can be somewhat of a force multiplier for them, using Air Force speak.   Naviere Walkewicz  22:39 I think it's wonderful what you're leading and you're passionate about, and it, again, dovetails from, I think, all of your experiences, of always wanting to make something better than what you had had to go through or experienced in life.   Christian Evans  22:50 You had told me to repeat this, but I had said if you would have asked just about anybody that knew me as a cadet and young officer, if Chris Evans — because I didn't become Christian until I came as a civilian, and everybody's Chris — but yeah, Chris Evans is on the AOG board. They'd say, “No way, no way.” So, I think the Academy, we've all had our experience with maybe getting broken down, whether it's basic training, whether it's your first year, academics. I would say, it started for me during basic training. Growing up and coming into the Academy, I thought of myself as a pretty good kid. You know, I focused on school first, athletics second, and I had a lot of success in those two spaces. I was blessed to be recruited to the Academy to play football. However, I did have a little intellectual curiosity about what the place was all about. Coming on my recruiting visit, seeing the training going on, it definitely piqued my interest. But when I got here and went through the Prep School first, I actually somewhat enjoyed that experience. Basic training at the prep school was hard, but it definitely tests your mettle. And after maybe that first few weeks and thinking that I might quit, having a few conversations with people back home, definitely made the decision that I came here for a reason I was going to see it through. That was challenging next year, during basic training, matriculating into our first — or four-degree year, and I had a very catastrophic event happened with my family where my grandfather was tragically murdered by my uncle — I mean, to be transparent. When we were preparing for this, you mentioned, “Oh, you've gone through some traumas,” and I never really thought about it as a trauma, but it definitely was one. And I would say, through the healing process, I connected with a very great chaplain we had here who took a lot of time to help me heal. However, he could only do so much because I had a lot of work to do for myself. I was blessed to be able to travel and play as a freshman and so in that, between going through what I went through in basic training and then the culture of the football team of somewhat really focusing inward, it definitely helped to lead to a general indifference about maximizing my time at the Academy and focusing on things that may not have been as value add to the bigger picture of being here, if that makes sense. So, from a leadership perspective, in my sophomore year, I had to make a serious decision, like, “If I'm going to stay here, well, what am I here for? Am I going to maximize my time, or am I going to keep goofing off and trying to live like I'm at a civilian school kind of thing?” And so, I did make a conscious effort then to kind of lock in, but still, a young athlete that had a lot of distractions around them, there was still a lot of room to grow. And as I went through my cadet time, I would say, definitely found the beginning of my pride in this institution. Nothing like graduating and have the president call your name, right? That was probably one of the cooler experiences. I would say that was the genesis of my indifference towards the bigger picture of what the Academy represents. But in that, I did come to a few moments where I realized that “Hey, you're really wasting your time here if you're going to continue behaving and really thinking about the Academy from a selfish lens.” That just goes to show it's OK to grow up. The Terrazzo-gap doesn't still have to exist. We could all kind of give back to our organization in ways that we're comfortable with, but you just got to find the avenues to do it.   Naviere Walkewicz  27:27 Well, when I think of the Next Gen community, what excites me is I think about the two cadets that I have at the Academy, and it's the Next Gen community that's going to be their mentors when they graduate. So, when you think about that, it really puts it in perspective.   Christian Evans  27:41 They'll also be their commanders too.   Naviere Walkewicz  27:43 That's right. Well, Christian, it's been a pleasure having you on Long Blue Leadership. Thank you so much for being here today.   Christian Evans  27:49 Thank you again for having me and thank you to the whole team that makes this podcast happen. I know there's a lot of work that goes into it. Thank you for having me.   Naviere Walkewicz  28:01 Thank you for joining us for this edition of Long Blue Leadership. The podcast drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on all your favorite podcast apps. Send your comments and guest ideas to us at social media@usafa.org, and listen to past episodes@longblueleadership.org   KEYWORDS Leadership, mentorship, personal growth, Air Force Academy, community impact, resilience, humor in leadership, self-discovery, transition to civilian life, alumni engagement.       The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation    

The Association of Graduates and Air Force Academy Foundation just dropped a special episode of Long Blue Leadership, featuring our continuing coverage of the 32nd National Character and Leadership Symposium. ----more---- Bryan Grossman, senior director of strategic communications and managing editor of Checkpoints magazine, speaks with this year's Sullenberger Award for Courage recipients. “Atomic,” “Batman,” “Guns,” and “Royal” helped stave off an arial assault on an allied nation. Listen to their stories on any of your favorite podcast apps and watch for more additional coverage in your March Checkpoints. (L-R) OUR GUESTS FOR THIS SPECIAL EDITION OF LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Capt. Kyle "Royal" Abraham, USAFA '19  Capt. Logan "Batman" Cowan, USAFA ‘18 Capt. Carla "Guns" Nava, USAFA '18 Claire "Atomic" Eddins, USAFA '18 "...All (four of these) warfighter graduates distinguished themselves in what has been called the largest air-to-air engagement in over 50 years when they helped turn away Iran's April 2024 attack against Israel. Their extraordinary airmanship contributed greatly to preserving regional stability, protecting Coalition forces, and saving countless civilian lives." Copy Credit:  USAFA Superintendent's Office   CHECKPOINTS ONLINE     ACCESS THE MOST RECENT ISSUE OF CHECKPOINTS - REQUIRES SIGN-IN   THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEMPORARY STUDIO CADET HONORS CONFERENCE ROOM, POLARIS HALL   VIEW THE FULL NCLS 2025 SPEAKER AND PRESENTER PLAYLIST       The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation      

In this special episode of Long Blue Leadership, we present our Long Blue Line Podcast Network coverage of National Character and Leadership Symposium 2025. ----more---- SUMMARY The theme for this year's symposium was “Warfighters to Win.” Cadets heard from leaders who model the warrior spirit of our Air Force and Space Force. Host, Ted Robertson, Multimedia and Podcast Specialist for the Air Force Academy Association of Graduates and Foundation, spoke with organizers, speakers, and panelists who came to NCLS from all across the military and academia.   OUR GUESTS FOR THIS EPISODE SEGMENT 1 Topic:  a look inside CCLD, the annual production of NCLS, and a preview of who is guesting in this podcast. Ms. Danielle Brines NCLS Program Director Dr. Michele Johnson NCLS Speaker Engagement Team Lead SEGMENT 2 Topic:  the thinking behind NCLS and how the Academy and cadets benefit and gain from the event and year-round programs. Dr. Doug Lindsay '92 Executive Editor, Journal of Character and Leadership Development Author, In Your Moment:  Mastering Your Leadership Thresholds    SEGMENT 3 Topic:  Sharing their journeys to careers in support of Strike Eagle Squadrons. 1st Lt. Gabrielle "DARE" Sutedjo '21 Intelligence Analyst for the 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB supporting four Strike Eagle squadrons. Capt. Joel Zamot '18 Lead Weapons Systems Officer, 335th Fighter Squadron, Seymour Johnson AFB supporting four Strike Eagle squadrons.   SEGMENT 4 Topic:  Task Force Hope:  Crisis Leadership and Moral Injury Recovery. Task Force (TF) Hope equips participants with the tools to face adversity head-on, lead decisively through crisis, and recover with resilience from the lasting weight of moral injuries. Forged in the crucible of operational challenges, it embodies 14 years of relentless refinement, evolving from a 2010 Squadron Officer School (SOS) paper into a powerful SOS elective and further sharpened by the innovative rigor of the 2020 SOS Think Tank. Tested and validated by over 2,000 Air Force captains, three academic years of Air War College students and faculty, the 55th Operations Group Global Squadron Command Summit, and multiple Air Force, Army, and USSOF units, TF Hope empowers leaders to master their craft, make bold decisions amidst uncertainty, and outpace the chaos of crisis. The resounding feedback from participants underscores its impact: “Why didn't I hear this earlier in my career?” Col. Jonathan Sawtelle Founder of Task Force Hope Air Force Weather Career Field Manager at Headquarters Air Force, the Pentagon, Washington D.C. Lt. Col. Brandon Murphy '07 Director of Operations for the 306th Operations Support Squadron at the U.S. Air Force Academy. Maj. Tara Holmes Chief of Cadet Development at the Center for Character and Leadership Development at the U.S. Air Force Academy.   SEGMENT 5 Dr. John Torres '82 Topic:  "No Excuses." Dr. John Torres is a self-described “Air Force brat” who graduated from the U.S. Air Force Academy in 1982. His 32-year military career in the Air Force included active duty as a C-130 Hercules pilot and service in the Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve as a flight surgeon. His military service also included a tour of duty in Iraq in 2004, as well as rescue missions at the South Pole and in response to Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Rita. Leveraging his combined medical and military experience, Torres helped establish training courses for NATO Special Forces soldiers to ensure a high level of consistency across various nations, languages and cultures.   SEGMENT 6 Topic:  Preview of our interview with the four winners of the Capt. Sullenberger Award for Courage. The podcast was hosted by Bryan Grossman, Association of Graduates and Foundation Senior Director of Communications. Publication is set for March 13-16, 2025. Capt. Claire Eddins, USAFA '18 Capt. Carla Nava, USAFA '18 Capt. Logan Cowan, USAFA ‘18 Capt. Kyle Abraham, USAFA '19, All warfighter graduates distinguished themselves in what has been called the largest air-to-air engagement in over 50 years when they helped turn away Iran's April 2024 attack against Israel. Their extraordinary airmanship contributed greatly to preserving regional stability, protecting Coalition forces, and saving countless civilian lives." Copy Credit:  USAFA Superintendent's Office     VIEW THE FULL VIDEO PLAYLIST OF ALL SPEAKERS AND PRESENTERS           The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation      

Dr. Heather Wilson, a 1982 Air Force Academy graduate, formerly the 24th Secretary of the Air Force, and first USAFA graduate to hold the position, discusses her unexpected journey to the role, emphasizing the importance of integrity, service, and leadership. ----more---- SUMMARY Dr. Wilson shares her unexpected journey into leadership, the importance of integrity, and the lessons learned from both successes and failures. She reflects on her family legacy, the influence of mentors, and how her military background shaped her leadership style. Dr. Wilson emphasizes the value of collecting tools for leadership and adapting to different environments while maintaining core values. In this conversation, she discusses the importance of finding purpose in one's mission and the value of relationships, particularly family support. She reflects on her journey as a woman in leadership, the significance of legacy in public service, and her unexpected path to serving in Congress. Dr. Wilson emphasizes the lessons learned in collaboration and the importance of humor in leadership, ultimately encouraging future leaders to uphold high standards and not to shame their families.   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK   TAKEAWAYS Dr. Wilson's journey to becoming Secretary of the Air Force was unexpected and transformative. Leadership often requires owning failures and focusing on solutions. Integrity is foundational to effective leadership and builds trust. Adapting leadership styles to different cultures is essential for success. Mentorship and influences from family play a significant role in shaping leaders. Collecting tools and knowledge is crucial for effective leadership. Quality management principles can be applied to various fields, including education and social services. Leadership is not linear; it involves navigating different paths and chapters. Building strong teams and hiring the right people is vital for organizational success. Direct communication and honesty are key components of effective leadership. Doing things that matter with people you like is essential. The most important decision in life can be personal, like choosing a partner. Family support enriches life and provides joy. Women in leadership often face unique challenges but can pave the way for others. Legacy is about making lasting changes in systems and strategies. Unexpected opportunities can lead to significant career changes. Collaboration and giving credit to others is key in leadership roles. Humor can help create a relaxed atmosphere in serious environments. Education is crucial for transforming lives and communities. Leadership is not always a straight path; adaptability is important.   EPISODE CHAPTERS 00:00  Introduction to Long Blue Leadership 01:25  Unexpected Call to Leadership 03:16  Lessons from Leadership Challenges 08:28  The Importance of Integrity 10:07  Adapting Leadership Styles 12:23  Influences and Mentorship 15:25  Family Legacy and Influence 17:41  Learning from Team Members 21:29  Applying Quality Management Principles 24:07  Navigating Non-Linear Leadership Paths 24:20  Finding Purpose in Mission and Relationships 28:06  The Importance of Family Support 30:08  Navigating Leadership as a Woman 34:30  Legacy and Impact in Public Service 36:29  Unexpected Paths: Serving in Congress 41:03  Lessons in Collaboration and Leadership   ABOUT DR. WILSON - IMAGES AND BIO COURTESY OF UTEP BIO Dr. Heather Wilson became the 11th President of The University of Texas at El Paso in 2019 after serving as Secretary of the United States Air Force. She is the former president of the South Dakota School of Mines & Technology, and she represented New Mexico in the United States Congress for 10 years.  Active in community and national affairs, she is a member of the National Science Board, which oversees the National Science Foundation, and serves as a board member of the Texas Space Commission. She was the inaugural Chair of the Alliance of Hispanic Serving Research Universities, and is a member of the board of directors of Lockheed Martin Corporation. Dr. Wilson is the granddaughter of immigrants and was the first person in her family to go to college. She graduated from the U.S. Air Force Academy in the third class to admit women and earned her master's and doctoral degrees from Oxford University in England as a Rhodes Scholar. UTEP is located on the U.S.-Mexico border – in the fifth largest manufacturing region in North America – and serves over 24,000 students with 170 bachelor's, master's and doctoral degree programs in nine colleges and schools. In the top 5% of public universities in the United States for research and designated a community-engaged university by the Carnegie Foundation, UTEP is America's leading Hispanic-serving university. It is the fourth largest research university in Texas and serves a student body that is 84% Hispanic. President Wilson is an instrument rated private pilot. She and her husband, Jay Hone, have two adult children and two granddaughters. Dr. Heather Wilson served as the 24th Secretary of the Air Force and was responsible for the affairs of the Department of the Air Force, including the organizing, training and equipping and providing for the welfare of 660,000 Active-Duty, Guard, Reserve and civilian forces their families. She provided oversight of the Air Force's annual budget of more than $132 billion and directs strategy and policy development, risk management, weapons acquisition, technology investments and human resource management across a global enterprise. Dr. Wilson has more than 35 years of professional experience in a range of leadership and management roles in the military, higher education, government and private industry. Before assuming her current position, Dr. Wilson was president of the South Dakota School of Mines & Technology, an engineering and science research university. From 1998 to 2009, Dr. Wilson was a member of the U.S. House of Representatives, where she served on the House Armed Services Committee, the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the House Energy and Commerce Committee. Before being elected to Congress, Dr. Wilson was a cabinet secretary in New Mexico's state government responsible for foster care, adoption, juvenile delinquency, children's mental health and early childhood education. From 1989 to 1991 Wilson served on the National Security Council staff as director for defense policy and arms control for President George H.W. Bush during the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Warsaw Pact. From 1991 to1995 and again from 2009 to 2013 Wilson was in the private sector. In 1991, she founded Keystone International, Inc., a company that did business development and program planning work for defense and scientific industry. She served as a senior advisor to several national laboratories on matters related to nuclear weapons, non-proliferation, arms control verification, intelligence and the defense industrial base. Wilson also served on the boards of two publicly traded corporations as well as numerous advisory and non-profit boards.   CONNECT WITH DR. WILSON LINKEDIN  |  UTEP     ALL PAST LBL EPISODES  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS     FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Guest:  Dr. Heather Wilson '82  |  Hosts:  Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99   Naviere Walkewicz  00:00 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership, the podcast where we share insights on leadership through the lives and experiences of Air Force Academy graduates. I'm Naviere Walkowicz, Class of '99. Our story is about a leader who reached heights fellow Air Force Academy graduates had not reached before her, and this was at a time when opportunities to do so were still new. My guest is Dr. Heather Wilson, Class of '82. As you heard, she served as the 24th secretary of the Air Force, but there is a unique distinction attached to that. Dr Wilson, welcome to Long Blue Leadership; we have much to discuss. Let's start with you becoming the secretary of the Air Force, our 24th.   Dr. Heather Wilson  00:37 Yeah, that wasn't part of my life's plan. Secretary Designate Mattis did call me. I was in South Dakota as the president of the South Dakota School of Mines and my cell phone rang and he said, “This is Jim Mattis, and I want to talk to you about becoming secretary of the Air Force.” And honest to goodness, my initial answer was, “Sir, you do know that being a college president is like the best job in America, right?” And he said, “Yeah, I know. I just came from Stanford.” And I said, “I didn't apply for any job. I mean, I like it out... I'm a gal of the West. I like the mountains. I like hiking and biking and fly fishing.” And he said, “Yeah, I know. I grew up on the Columbia River in Washington.” And I thought, “This isn't working,” but we talked several more times, and it was pretty clear that I was being called to serve in a way that I didn't anticipate, but that was what I was supposed to do.   Naviere Walkewicz  01:35 What a transformative moment in your life, I'm sure.   Dr. Heather Wilson  01:38 Well, it was. Again, my entire life, I think, is a diversion from its planned course. But I turned out — I didn't anticipate that, and it meant — my husband doesn't really much like big East Coast cities that rain a lot and have a lot of traffic, and so from a family point of view, it wasn't what we personally wanted to do, but you're called to serve. And we've been called to serve in different ways in our lives and sometimes, even if it feels inconvenient, you're still called to serve. It turned out to be wonderful and I really enjoyed the experience, both of working with Sec. Mattis, but also getting back to spending time with airmen. And so it turned out to be wonderful, but it wasn't what I expected.   Naviere Walkewicz  02:25 Well, you said it, ma'am. As we know, service and leadership aren't linear, and so we're really excited to dive into some of those experiences today. Maybe share, as secretary of the Air Force, some of those moments in leadership that stuck with you. Let's just kind of start there.   Dr. Heather Wilson  02:42 Certainly. There were good days and not so good days. I think one of the things that I really benefited from was that I had a partner in the chief of staff, Dave Goldfein, who was absolutely fantastic. And we've remained very close friends. We started at the Academy the same day and he would joke and tell people that we didn't graduate on the same day because he went stop-out for a year. But we didn't know each other well as cadets, but we were formed by some of the same experiences and I think that helped tremendously. I didn't really understand that in our system of government, the civilian secretary has almost all the authority, but the chief of staff has almost all of the influence. And if you can figure out how to work together, you can get a heck of a lot done. And Dave and I both had that same approach, and it turned out to be a great partnership.   Naviere Walkewicz  03:42 That's pretty incredible. In fact, the time of your service in that role, I was actually working under your umbrella at U.S. STRATCOM. I was at Strategic Command there as a government civilian and as a reservist. And so, I can certainly speak to, I think, some of the amazing things that you did. Can you share a little — you talked about some ups and downs. What was maybe one of the failures as secretary of the Air Force that you learned from that helped you throughout your life?   Dr. Heather Wilson  04:11 Well, I know the day. I think it was Nov. 5, 2017, and it was a Sunday, late morning or early afternoon, and my phone rang. I was upstairs in the study in my row house in Virginia and it was the inspector general, Gen. Syed. And that morning, a young man had walked into a church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, and opened fire and killed a lot of people, and it turned out he had been an airman, and the general said, “You know, we're not sure yet, but he may have been convicted of a crime that would have required us to tell the FBI and the national criminal records check system that he had committed a crime that would not allow him to purchase a weapon, but we may have failed to notify.” We didn't know, we wouldn't know that afternoon but I talked to the chief and we all got together on Monday morning at 9 a.m. and Gen. Syed confirmed that he was an airman, he had been convicted of a domestic violence-related crime, and we had not properly notified the FBI, and as a result, he had been able to buy a weapon. Um, that was not a good day. And we talked about what we should do next, and our general counsel wasn't there — he was traveling that morning, but a more junior lawyer was there, who suggested kind of — and, you know, other people said, well — it actually got worse because there was an IG investigation, an internal audit from several years before, that showed that all of the services were not properly reporting to the national criminal records system. So we hadn't fixed the problem. We knew; we had been informed there was a problem and hadn't fixed it. And some people said, “Well, you weren't here at the time.” That doesn't matter. You wear the uniform, or you wear the cloak of office, and you have to take responsibility for the institution. And of course, the lawyers would say, “Well, you know, maybe you want to fuzz this and not take — you know, there's investigation going on,” or something. But we knew enough of the facts that morning, Monday morning, and Dave Goldfein and I decided to own it, to own the failure and focus on fixing the problem. And we did. And in the short term that was very uncomfortable. We sat in front of the Pentagon press corps and took their questions, and we went to Capitol Hill and informed the members of Congress on what had been done and not been done and why. But in the long term, by owning failure, we were able to focus on fixing the problem rather than just trying to manage responsibility and accountability, and it turned out to be a much better approach. So, sometimes the most important lesson is to own failure.   Naviere Walkewicz 07:09 I'm so glad you shared that, ma'am, because I think some people have a fear of failure, but there are many times when failure is inevitable, and to your point, owning it is the right approach. Something you said when you're sharing that, it made me think about us as cadets and our core values: integrity first. And that really resonated with how your approach was. Would you say that was born for you at the Academy and kind of through your career that's where it stayed, or has that always been part of your fabric?   Dr. Heather Wilson  07:36 I think the Academy was absolutely formative in that way, in the Honor Code. And, you know, integrity first, service before self, and excellence in all we do, now replaces what was there when I was a cadet, over the archway there. But I think that's woven into the fabric for airmen, and it's part of our culture, and it drives you. And I think — you know now we look at, how do we evaluate officers? It's the same way I now evaluate leaders — any leaders that work with me — and it's the way I evaluate myself: accomplish the mission, lead people, manage resources and make your unit better, all on a foundation of values. But it's that last part of it: all on a foundation of values. If you don't have that, the rest of it almost doesn't matter. You can try to make your unit better, but if you're lying about it, nobody's going to trust you. If you're leading people and managing resources, but you don't have integrity, it doesn't matter. So, integrity first, and that commitment to trying to be honest and direct with people builds those relationships of trust, which lasts for decades throughout a career.   Naviere Walkewicz  08:53 Absolutely. And the key word, I think, that foundation you talked about — how has that foundation served you in leadership as you've explored other areas outside of the military, amazing roles leading UTEP, also at the South Dakota School of Mines, in higher education? I'm sure that there's a translation of what that looks like. Can you share maybe an example of how that came into play?   Dr. Heather Wilson  09:15 Sure, it happens all the time. I think in any leadership position, whether you're in corporate life, in community life and a nonprofit, or in higher education, leading with a foundation of values, being honest, complying with the law, following the rules or changing the rules. It doesn't mean — that's one of the things that I think is probably important for leaders. You get to a point as a leader where your job is not just to follow the rules, but to look at the systems and identify the rules that need to be changed, but to be direct and honest about that too. Where it's not “Well, I think this rule doesn't make any sense, so I'm going to skirt it,” or “I'm not going to tell people that I've complied with something and I haven't.” In fact, you know that happened to me this morning. I got a disclosure that I was supposed to sign for a report that was published yesterday to the director of National Intelligence on a committee that I serve on, and they sent this kind of notification on what you can talk about publicly, and all of those things, and I hadn't given up my right to speak publicly about unclassified matters, and I responded, “I understand what you've said. I want to let you know that this is how I interpret this, and this is the way I'm going to act.” I was very direct about it. “I didn't give up my First Amendment rights as a citizen because I worked on your task force.” So, very direct. And I think that directness is something that — not all cultures are that way, including higher education culture. I have to be a little bit careful about that sometimes — the airman's tendency to have a frank debrief isn't always the way other cultures and work cultures are. They're just not always like that, so, I have to be a little bit careful sometimes that I don't crush people's will to live or something.   Naviere Walkewicz  11:13 I was actually thinking about that as you were speaking how, if you have the foundation, especially from the military, we kind of understand that directive approach and certainly those core values that we know of. And I'm curious, how do you adapt as a leader to those who maybe don't have that foundation? How do you bring them up to speed and kind of help them establish that?   Dr. Heather Wilson  11:32 Well, it's a two-way street. It means that I have to understand the culture that I'm in and the way in which I talk with senior faculty may be slightly different than the way I might talk to somebody who just got off a flight line and was too low and slow on final or something, you know? But at the same time with both a sense of humor and a little bit of grace… It was really funny when I was at South Dakota Mines, my provost was a long-time academic. And of course, I had served in Congress for 10 years as well. And he once said something to me that just made me crack up. He said, “You know, you are the least political president I've ever worked with. And the funny thing is, you're the only one that was really a politician.” And he said, “You remind me more of a military officer.” And I thought, “Yeah, that's probably true.” But I was fairly direct as a member of Congress as well. And so, I've just found that that works better for me in life, I guess.   Naviere Walkewicz  12:37 You were sharing how, you know, I think it was the provost that said that you really didn't remind him as someone that was very political, even though you're the only politician he's known. And so what was your time like serving in Congress? I mean, that's 10 years you did, I think, correct?   Dr. Heather Wilson  12:52 I did. And again, I didn't expect to serve in Congress. My predecessor became very seriously ill shortly before the filing deadline for the election that happened in 1998, and my phone rang. It was a Thursday night. This happens to me. I don't know why, but it was a Thursday night, and my phone rang. I was working in Santa Fe, cabinet secretary for Child Welfare, and it was Sen. Pete Domenici, the senior senator for the state of New Mexico. And he said, “You don't know anything about this, but I'm coming to New Mexico this weekend, and I want to talk to you about running for Congress.” Well, that's a quiz; that's not a question. Because a quiz has a right answer, which is, “Sir, I'd be happy to talk to you about whatever you want to talk about.” He's a United States senator. So, we talked about all kinds of things, and he called me from the airport when he was heading back to Washington that Sunday night, and he said, “Look, if you will run, I will help you.” And I decided to run. It was eight days before the filing deadline. I talked to my predecessor — he was fighting skin cancer — and said, “Look, why don't you just focus on fighting cancer? Two years from now, if you want to run again, you can have this seat back. I'll try to do my best for the next two years.” And then 30 days later, he died. I mean, you're not supposed to die of skin cancer. And so, I ended up serving for 10 years in the Congress in a very difficult swing district that I probably shouldn't have won in the first place. But I enjoyed the service part of it. I enjoyed the policy work part of it — intellectually challenging. Some of the partisan silliness I didn't like very much. And then when I left the Congress, ran on successfully for the Senate and became a university president. One of the great things — I tell people now that I was released from Congress early for good behavior. But it was nice to be in a town where people were waving at me with all five fingers. I mean, it was wonderful. So, I enjoyed the service, and I enjoyed a lot helping people — doing casework and things. But it was also a little bit less of a partisan time where you could try to listen and learn and serve well and try to serve your constituents without just being under attack mercilessly and in social media, or something. It was maybe perhaps a different age.   Naviere Walkewicz  15:25 Well, I chuckled when you said waving with all five fingers. That got a good one out of me. I thought about when you're in that, because that wasn't something you were looking to do, and this seems to be a bit of a theme in your leadership trajectory as well. You've kind of been tapped on the shoulder, and you know, for the ones that you didn't apply for or run for, plan for, have been such transformative positions in your life.   Dr. Heather Wilson  15:50 Yeah, and I think maybe that happens to people more than we might acknowledge, because when we're planning our lives, we think we know what's going to happen, but in reality, we adapt to situations that develop and opportunities open that you didn't know were there or someone asked you to take on a special project and that leads you in a direction that you didn't anticipate. So while mine seem particularly unusual in these very different chapters of my life, I don't think it's all that unusual. We just look forward and project in straight lines, and when we look backward, we tell a story in a narrative and it's not always a straight line. But I've been blessed to be asked to do some things. And perhaps in our relationship, my husband and I, he doesn't like change. I love it, and so in our relationship, he's kind of the keel and I'm kind of the sail, and together, we go places.   Naviere Walkewicz  16:56 That's awesome. And I think that particular time and journey in your career serving in Congress was probably one that you established new tools in your leadership toolbox. Were there any that particularly stood out — moments, either when you were having to, you know, forge new policy or achieve things that you hadn't prior? Because Congress is a kind of different machine.   Dr. Heather Wilson  17:21 Yeah, it's a very big committee, and it's not executive leadership. And so I'm probably more predisposed to executive leadership than just being on committees. It takes a very long time to get anything done in Congress, and our government is intentionally designed that way to protect us from tyranny. So you have to take that philosophical approach to it, even if you're frustrated day to day. I did learn how to get things done by giving other people credit. And there were several times — the changes to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act is probably one example — where I had sponsored legislation in the House. It had taken quite a bit of time — changing Congress. There were continued problems, and I went to others and tried to put them in positions of leadership and support them. And ultimately, it was a Senate bill that passed, but which had been shaped in the background by multiple people, including me, and I was OK with that. And the same thing happened on pieces of legislation about public lands in New Mexico. I remember I came out in favor of doing something in northern New Mexico with respect to some public lands, and I got out ahead of Pete Domenici and he was not happy about that. He was very clear about not being happy about getting a little bit ahead of him on it. But in the end, the piece of legislation there that was signed, and another one on Zia Pueblo were Senate bills. They weren't House bills. But I had moved things forward on the House side, and it didn't matter to me that that it said “S” rather than “H” in front of the name of the bill. So as long as you don't really care about who gets the credit, you can get a lot done in the Congress.   Naviere Walkewicz  19:11 That is a powerful lesson. And somewhere in the back of my mind, I think there's a Contrails quote, and I can't remember all of it, but I remember the end of it is, “…if you don't care who gets the credit.”   Dr. Heather Wilson  19:11 Yeah, that was probably one of the short ones. Schofield's quote was — we all did pushups for those.   Naviere Walkewicz  19:30 Yes, I had a starting moment. I was about to get down…   Dr. Heather Wilson  19:35 … and start to sweat…   Naviere Walkewicz  19:37 … and take my punishment. That was wonderful, ma'am. I'm glad we actually went back and did that journey.   Dr. Heather Wilson  19:42 When I think about my service in the Congress, where I made the most difference, it was in committee work, and particularly on the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, where I served for a significant amount of time, including post-9/11. And I think that work, because the Intelligence Committee, most of it is in private, it's dealing with really hard, really important issues, and you don't bring your staff there. You have to do the work. And I think probably that's where I did some of my most important work as a member of Congress, was in Intelligence.   Naviere Walkewicz  20:18 Thank you for sharing that. Who are some other influencers, some key influencers in your life, that have maybe walked alongside you or helped you in these different roles that you've carried in your amazing career.   Dr. Heather Wilson  20:31 Oh, they're different people at different times, but certainly as a young person, my grandfather was very important to me. My grandfather had been one of the first flyers in the RAF in World War I, and then came to America in 1922 and flew in the Second World War for what became the Civil Air Patrol. So he did sub search off the Atlantic coast, and varied parts, around to bases, in New England. So, he was important to me as a child. My dad died when I was young. My dad also had been enlisted in the Air Force. He was a crew chief and also a pilot, commercial pilot, after he got out of the service. So I grew up around airplanes and my grandfather was very important to me, and there were other people along the way. When I was a cadet, there was a group commander, Lieutenant Colonel — it's funny, you still remember… anyone who remembers my middle initial, I know it's like, “Oh, this may not be good,” but Robert L. Rame, Lt. Col. Robert L. Rame was the 4th Group commander and my first Air Officer Commanding. General — sorry, Maj. William S. Reeder. He was an Army officer and had been a prisoner of war in Vietnam. Really, I was terrified of disappointing him. It's funny, I just got a Christmas card from him. Life's long, right?   Naviere Walkewicz  21:53 Wow. What connections. I'd like to kind of go back a little bit to your grandfather. You said he was really important to you in your life. Can you share maybe some of the ways he influenced you? Obviously, you're third-generation aviator in your family. Is that how you knew you're going to go into service?   Dr. Heather Wilson  22:08 Well, the Academy wasn't an option until I was a junior in high school, and so I knew I was going to college, but I didn't really think about where. And then they opened the Air Force Academy to women when I was a junior in high school. So, my grandfather had two sons, and he had five grandsons, and me. But he was pretty — I would say — the way he might say it is he was pretty sweet on me; he and I were very close. We used to play chess after school when I was in high school, and I remember once we just finished playing chess, and I was a senior in high school — so, my grandfather was an aviator; he was also a mechanic. He could use any tool, I mean, he was just amazing with his hands. And I had learned a new tool in school, and I took out a piece of graph paper and I drew a drew a curve, and I said, “Grandpa, do you think you could find the area under this curve?” And he said, “Well, I'd probably count up the squares and estimate from there on the graph paper.” And I then I showed him something new and it was called calculus, and it was the first time in my life that I realized I had a tool that my grandfather didn't have. He had a high school education and had gone into the RAF during the First World War, and he was a great mechanic and a really good man, but I realized that there were opportunities for me that maybe my grandfather never had.   Naviere Walkewicz  23:56 I actually got chill bumps when you shared that. Pretty powerful. Thank you so much. Can you talk about, throughout your career — you said if people remember your middle initial, and I'm sure that many on the military side would, because you're amazing… Have you learned from anyone maybe that is not a mentor of you, but someone that has kind of come under your wing? Can you share some leadership lessons that you've learned from those serving alongside and under you?   Dr. Heather Wilson  24:24 Oh my gosh, I learn stuff every day from the people whom I'm privileged to work with. And one of the things that I learned over time was, and as you get more senior, the most important thing you do as a senior leader is hire good people who know things that you don't know, because it's not possible to know everything you need to know to lead a large organization. So, you have to organize yourself well and then get great people and let them do their job. So, I learn things every day. I was interviewing somebody yesterday that we're trying to attract to come to the university who is on the communication side of things — marketing and communication and branding. And you know that creative, visual side of my brain, if you did a brain scan, it would be like a dark hole. That's not a strength of mine. And so those kinds of things are — you have to realize what your strengths are, and then to fill in the team and put together a team, which together can accomplish the mission.   Naviere Walkewicz  25:34 I'd say your grandfather is still kind of, you know, influencing that. It's almost like you're filling your toolbox with all those areas.   Dr. Heather Wilson  25:43 That's funny you use that word. I've told this story before, but my father was both a pilot and a mechanic, and he built an experimental aircraft in our house, and we lived on this, kind of the last house that they would plow to on the end of the road in the winter, right? So, in a very small town, and at that time, there were still traveling salesmen, and the Snap-on tools guy would come probably every six weeks or so, and he had this, like red truck with an accordion thing on the back that looked just like the toolbox in the corner of the garage, right? And we knew that when the Snap-on tools guy came, do not go out. I mean, it was like Christmas for my dad. Do not interfere when the Snap-on tools guy is there. And so he'd go out and lean against the truck, and we could see him laughing and stuff. And eventually my dad would reach in his pocket and pull out his billfold and give the guy a bill, and he'd go back, and he'd lift up the back of the accordion thing and reach in there and give my dad a tool. And my dad would — then the truck would back out, and go on to his next stop. But my dad would take that tool and we'd scramble into the garage to see what he got and stuff. And my dad would usually put that tool in the box in the corner and then go back to what he was doing that day, working on his car or whatever he was doing. And it occurred to me that my dad didn't need that tool that day, but he collected tools, and someday he'd need that tool. And I think great leaders collect tools even when they don't need them today, because they're going to be times when you bring everybody to — you know, there's that great scene in Apollo 13, but it happens around the staff and Cabinet table, and it'll happen in your planning room as a pilot where you've got a new problem, and everybody brings in their tools and says, “OK, how can we make a carbon monoxide filter, or carbon dioxide filter, out of what we've got here on the table?” So, collect tools. And I think that's one of the things I learned from my dad.     Naviere Walkewicz  28:00 Oh, that is an amazing story. Can you share maybe a tool that you've had in your toolbox, that you learned way back when, maybe at the Academy, or as a young girl, that you've recently pulled out and used?   Dr. Heather Wilson 28:12 Well, one of them — I'm not so sure it's recent, but when I was a small business owner, there was a group in New Mexico called Quality New Mexico, and they taught small business owners the Baldrige Principles for quality management. And then I ended up being the Cabinet secretary for child welfare in New Mexico. So, I took over a foster care system, which was under a federal consent decree for not getting kids forever homes and an overly crowded juvenile justice system. I mean, every intractable social problem was — I realized after a while why I became Cabinet secretary for child welfare, because nobody else wanted that job. I mean it was a really difficult job, but I had these tools on quality management. I thought, “I think we can apply these same principles to improving foster care, to improving the juvenile justice system.” And so we did, and there's some things I was proud of there, but one of my last acts as Cabinet secretary before I ended up leaving and running for Congress was to sign the end of the federal consent decree that had been in place for 18 years that said that the state was not getting foster kids forever homes. We changed the system, but we did it using those quality management principles, which I had learned as a small business owner almost as a lark. So, there's one example. But, you know, we just went through a global pandemic. It was very much a pickup game. Nobody had ever been through that. So, we all got together and figured out how we could use the tools we had, including the research capability on my campus to be able to sequence DNA so that we could do testing on campus and get the results, ultimately, within six hours and then feed that back so we could detect disease before someone was symptomatic, so you could suppress disease on campus for those who had to be on campus. There's some things you can't do remotely. And so, we had our own testing system on campus, which was remarkable. Well, why'd we have that? Because we had some tools in the box.   Naviere Walkewicz  30:37 Well, you've used those tools amazingly as you've navigated your career. How would you say that — because yours is… we talked about not being linear. It's kind of been multiple paths and…   Dr. Heather Wilson 30:50 Different chapters.   Naviere Walkewicz 30:51 Yes, I love that. Different chapters. How would you say that you've navigated leadership through that? And has there been a thread that's been common through all those different chapters that you've…   Dr. Heather Wilson  31:04 Yeah, we talked a little about integrity, and that certainly is there. But I when, when people say things like, you know, “Why are you at UTEP?” Or, “Why did you shift to higher ed?” Or, “Why did…” The mission matters so developing people matters. Defending the country matters. So, a mission that matters with people I like. And I realized that when you get down to it, you should do things that matter with people you like and if that's your filter, as long as you can put food on the table, there's a lot of different things you can do, but it should be something that matters with people you like. Otherwise, that time between 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. can seem forever unless you're doing something you like.   Naviere Walkewicz  31:49 That is a powerful thread. Mission matters with people you like. How has your family supported you through this?   Dr. Heather Wilson  31:56 I live a blessed life. I tell this to students, and probably, as a younger woman, I wouldn't have said these things because I was so focused on being taken seriously, I suppose. But, I lightened up after time and realized, OK, I'm probably too serious. But the most important decision I've made in my life is not to go to the Academy or to run for Congress or to become a college president — none of those things are the most important decision I've made in my life. The most important decision I made in my life was to marry the guy I married. I married a guy who's actually retired Air Force now, but he was a lawyer. Despite that, he's a nice guy and sometimes, I think, particularly for women, there's always that fear that you're going to sit down when you're in a getting into a serious relationship, and it's going to be one of those conversations that says, “OK, we're thinking about making this permanent. Who's going to give up her career?” And it's not really a conversation, or at least maybe it wasn't in my era, but Jay never had that conversation with me. It was always we could do more together than either of us could do alone, and he has been so supportive of me. And, yeah, vice versa. But I had to go back east for something last week, and I knew that even in this big reception that I was in with all these people, that he wasn't going to be there, and if he was, he'd still be the most interesting guy in the room. So, I married well, and my family always — we're a very close family. And I think while my obligations to my family didn't end at the front porch, my family gave richness and dimension to my life that I never really anticipated as a young woman, and it's given me joy. Success seemed possible to achieve; joy always seemed like a gift from God, and I have had joy because of my family.   Naviere Walkewicz  34:18 Thank you for sharing that. You talk about when you're hiring, you choose people that kind of fill gaps, but it sounds like, also on your personal team, you want to make sure that you're choosing it, you know...   Dr. Heather Wilson  34:30 Yeah, you're going to be roommates for a long time. That matters. And there's the things that you just kind of have to get over. You know, I'm not going to clean around his sink, and he's not going to be bothered about the fact that my closet's color coordinated. I mean, we just live with that, right?   Naviere Walkewicz  34:49 I appreciate that about you so much. You talked a minute ago about some things you learned about yourself as a leader. You know, “Not take myself too seriously.” Can you share a little bit more about that journey on your own, like that personal leadership journey that you've made?   Dr. Heather Wilson  35:07 Yeah, and I think it's easier as you go on. And honestly, very early on, I was very often the only woman in the room, and so I wanted to be taken seriously. I was also very often the youngest person in the room. And so those two things made me want to be taken seriously. As I went on and got more responsibility, I realized that the truth is I am a very serious and successful woman. My husband would say that I was raised in the home for the humor impaired, and that I've been in therapy with him for over 30 years. So, I gradually learned to see the humor in life. I still am not one that stands up and tells jokes or something, but I see the humor in life and I don't take myself too seriously. The person that I watched who used self-deprecating humor better than any leader I've ever seen was actually Dave Goldfein. Everyone knew when he walked into a room, or if he stood up on a stage at a town hall meeting with a bunch of airmen or something — everybody knew that they were gonna laugh. At some point in that meeting we're gonna laugh, and not at someone else's expense, but at his. And it made people relax around him. He was very, very good at it. But I also knew that his self-deprecating humor was really a cover for exceptional competence, and I never underestimated that, but it made people relax and brought a little bit of joy to whatever intractable problem we were looking at.   Naviere Walkewicz  36:51 Well, you shared about sometimes when you're coming up through your leadership, you were often the only woman in the room and sometimes the youngest in the room. What would you like to share on your thoughts of what has that impact been, and what do you see as your legacy?   Dr. Heather Wilson  37:07 Well, there were some times, particularly early on, when women flying or women in positions of command was new, where you just had to do the job and realize that you were probably changing attitudes as you went and that it would be easier for those who came after you, and that's OK. I don't see that as much anymore. Although, when I was elected to Congress, I think probably 10% to 15% of the House was women. Now it's more than that, and once it gets to be more than 30% in any room, it doesn't sound — it's almost like you walk into a restaurant where it's all guys or all women, and you notice the difference in the room, the tones of the voices and things. Once you get to about a third, it feels like it's comfortable, but early on, I always was very conscious of it and conscious of the obligation to do well, because I was being judged not only for myself, but for an entire group of people. And so, I was sensitive to that, and wanted to make sure that I didn't, like — “Don't shame the family,” right? So make sure that you keep the doors open. As far as legacy is concerned, and I think back in my time as Air Force secretary, I would say there's two things that I hope linger, and they have so far. One is a change to the promotion system to make sure that we have the right kind of talent to choose from at all levels in the organization, and so that, I think, has continued to persist. And the other one that will be changed over time and has to be changed over time, had to do with the science and technology strategy of the Air Force and the need to stay ahead of adversaries. I think this is a completely separate conversation, but I actually think that that we are at greater risk of scientific and technical surprise today than at any time since the end of the Second World War. And if you go back and read books about engineers of victory, or there's a whole lot of books about how science and technology was brought to bear in prevailing in the Second World War. I think we're at risk now in a way that we've kind of become complacent about. So, science and technology strategy is something that I hope is a legacy.   Naviere Walkewicz  39:36 That's amazing, ma'am. And I think not only for our military, but you're able to influence that in the spaces that you are now.   Dr. Heather Wilson  39:43 Yeah, engaging the next generation, which is a heck of a lot of fun. You know, the University of Texas at El Paso is a wonderful institution — 25,000 students, half of them are the first in their families to go to college. About 70% or so come from families making less than about $45,000 a year. So, this is a university that transforms lives, and it's a university that — of my 25,000 students, over 5,000 are studying engineering. Another couple thousand are studying science, College of Nursing, College of Education. This has a tremendous impact on the region and on the lives of those who choose to educate themselves. And so it's a wonderful mission to be part of, and I think it's important for the nation. I think regions of the world who choose to educate their people in the 21st century will thrive, and those that don't are going to be left behind, and that's why I do what I do.   Naviere Walkewicz  40:44 Well, it clearly aligns with your foundation and your mission, ma'am, and I think that's outstanding. We're going to ask for Dr. Wilson's final thoughts next, but before we do, I'd like to take a moment and thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. The podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio and is available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Be sure to watch, listen and subscribe to all episodes of Long Blue Leadership at longblueleadership.org. So, Dr. Wilson, I would love to take a moment to gather some of your final thoughts, what you'd like to share today.   Dr. Heather Wilson  41:21 Well, assuming that most of the folks who listen to this are either cadets or young officers or grads, I leave them with one thought, and that is, don't shame the family. Don't shame the family. People will look up to you because you are an Air Force Academy graduate, or you are an Air Force cadet. The standard is higher, so live up to the standard.   Naviere Walkewicz  41:50 Ma'am, we started with you being direct. You ended direct. I think that is amazing. Thank you very much. Thanks for being on Long Blue Leadership.   Dr. Heather Wilson  41:58 My pleasure.     KEYWORDS leadership, Air Force Academy, integrity, mentorship, quality management, Dr. Heather Wilson, military service, personal growth, career journey, unexpected opportunities, leadership, integrity, family support, women in leadership, public service, legacy, mission-driven, personal growth, collaboration, Congress     The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation    

In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Co-Hosts Naviere Walkewicz and Wyatt Hornsby reflect on the leadership lessons shared by accomplished graduates of the U.S. Air Force Academy over the first two seasons.   SUMMARY The hosts highlight key moments and insights from various guests, emphasizing the importance of personal connections, resilience, and the role of mentorship in leadership. They discuss the unique experiences of leaders like Coach Troy Calhoun, Brigadier General Gavin P. Marks, Nicole Malachowski, Madison Marsh, Lieutenant General BJ Schwedo, and Carl Falk, showcasing how their journeys can inspire others in their leadership paths.   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN  |  FACEBOOK   TAKEAWAYS  - Leadership is deeply personal and requires understanding your people.  - The importance of resilience and the ability to bounce back from setbacks.  - Mentorship plays a crucial role in developing future leaders.  - Building relationships is essential in leadership roles.  - Knowing your craft enhances credibility and effectiveness as a leader.  - Leadership is about doing good and positively impacting others' lives.  - Embracing vulnerability can lead to personal and professional growth.  - It's important to risk failure in pursuit of big dreams.  - Support from family and mentors can shape one's career trajectory.  - Leaders should encourage others to pursue their passions and dreams.   CHAPTERS 00:00 Celebrating Leadership Lessons from the Air Force Academy 02:11 Highlighting Coach Troy Calhoun's Leadership Philosophy 08:09 Insights from Brigadier General Gavin P. Marks 12:59 Nicole Malachowski: Overcoming Setbacks and Embracing Dreams 19:09 Madison Marsh: A Journey of Resilience and Purpose 23:27 Lessons from Lieutenant General BJ Schwedo on Future Conflict 28:23 Karl Falk: The Importance of Support and Grit in Leadership   ABOUT THE HOSTS BIOS LT. COL. (RET.) NAVIERE WALKEWICZ '99 Senior Vice President, Engagement With over two decades in leadership roles, my current focus at the Association of Graduates - U.S. Air Force Academy is fostering a robust network of 50,000+ alumni. This commitment involves igniting a culture of engagement and inclusivity, underpinned by a strong foundation in support of our Air Force Academy. - BIO COPY CREDIT:  LINKEDIN.COM MR. WYATT HORNSBY Senior Vice President, Marketing & Communications | Executive Editor & Writer Wyatt Hornsby is passionate about developing marketing and communications talent and cohesive, high-performance teams. He is senior vice president of marketing and communications at the Air Force Academy Foundation and the Association of Graduates. He leads the work of the foundation and alumni association marketing and communications division, while also coordinating with various Air Force Academy offices, including Public Affairs and Strategic Communications. - BIO COPY CREDIT:  LINKEDIN.COM   ALL PAST LBL EPISODES  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS   CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Send your feedback or nominate a guest at: socialmedia@usafa.org TED ROBERTSON:  Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org  Multimedia and Podcast Specialist | LBL Podcast Network Producer and Editor RYAN HALL:  Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org  Assistant Director of Multimedia Production | LBL Podcast Network Director BRYAN GROSSMAN:  Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Senior Director of Strategic Communications and Publications | LBL Podcast Network Copy Editor WYATT HORNSBY:  Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org  Senior Vice President, Marketing & Communications | Executive Editor & Writer | LBL Podcast Network Executive Producer   FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Co-Hosts:  Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99  |  Mr. Wyatt Hornsby Guests:  Coach Troy Calhoun '89; Brig. Gen. Gavin P. Marks '96; Col. (Ret.) Nicole Malachowski '96;  2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23; Gen. BJ Schwedo '87; Mr. Karl Falk '98, Mr. Ted Robertson    Naviere Walkewicz 00:20 Welcome to our Long Blue Leadership retrospective. We're celebrating our first two seasons and the countless leadership lessons shared by some of the most accomplished United States Air Force Academy graduates.   Wyatt Hornsby 00:31 Naviere, seasons 1 and 2 have showcased amazing leadership stories and takeaways. From the very start, Long Blue Leadership has given listeners an inside look at real experiences, insights and advice from seasoned leaders, as well as those just beginning their leadership journeys. These deep dives have explored how leaders not only face challenges head-on but also find ways to inspire and empower those around them.   Naviere Walkewicz 00:58 Yes, what really sets this podcast apart is the mix of our guests' perspectives on leadership. These discussions have touched on teamwork, perseverance, humility, excellence and service before self.   Wyatt Hornsby 01:12 In this edition of Long Blue Leadership, we're sharing a few of our favorite moments. Not easy, because there are so many. Plus, we'll give you a preview of Season 3, which launches soon.   Naviere Walkewicz 01:23 And so, without further ado, Wyatt, let's get into our Long Blue Leadership podcast.   Wyatt Hornsby Let's do it, Naviere.   Naviere Walkewicz Some of our favorite moments. This was not easy to do at all.   Wyatt Hornsby 01:33 Indeed, it was not easy. Two seasons — and Naviere, while we're at it, I just want to congratulate you; awesome job on hosting Long Blue Leadership, and also a little plug for our friend Doug Lindsay as well for doing a great job as host.   Naviere Walkewicz 01:46 It's been an amazing journey, and I think the biggest thing for me has been just being able to share some of the stories of our graduates. So, like we said, picking just a few of them was really hard, but it's been just a beautiful transformation of where we started and where we're going in Season 3.   Wyatt Hornsby 02:01 It's been wonderful storytelling, and I hope that our listeners have been able to take away some great actionable insights for their own leadership journeys, whether they're Academy graduates or others seeking to develop as leaders.   Naviere Walkewicz 02:13 I know I personally took some things away from all of these conversations. I think some of them we'll highlight today.   Wyatt Hornsby 02:18 Wonderful. Let's do it. Looking forward to it.   Naviere Walkewicz 02:21 So, I think you might have the first one you wanted to highlight.   Wyatt Hornsby 02:24 So Naviere, as we said, I mean, it's so difficult to find our favorites. I mean, there are just so many across seasons 1 and 2. But I'm going to tell you, I was so struck by Coach Troy Calhoun, Class of '89. That conversation was absolutely awesome. And a couple of things stood out to me, and we'll listen to a clip from our conversation with Coach Calhoun, but a couple things that stood out to me was, I think a lot of people, when they think about Coach Calhoun and him coming on to do a conversation, they're probably going to expect him to talk about the Xs and Os and strategy and how the Falcons are looking for the season. But in this case, what Coach Calhoun did was he came in and he talked about his own leadership journey all the way from the beginning growing up in Oregon. And I just think that throughout the conversation, we learned a lot about him as a person, his family, his formative experiences. And really what I took away from it additionally, was the unique importance of athletics at the Academy, and how Coach Calhoun and his program, like all sports at USAFA, are developing leaders of character for our Air Force and Space Force. Just an awesome conversation.   Naviere Walkewicz 03:37 It was an awesome conversation. I think it really talks about — one of the things that stood out, I think, in the clip that you picked up is really about how he views leadership and taking care of people. Let's give it a listen.   Wyatt Hornsby Indeed.   Troy Calhoun 03:49 You need to be doing something that you love, that you're passionate about. And the other part is, again, just the involvement that you have with your people. And, you know, to get in there, literally, where you're hip to hip and shoulder to shoulder. And I think sometimes, whether you're in a leadership role or maybe you have a certain rank, you think, “Well, I can't do that in order to maintain my distance professionally.” And I wholeheartedly disagree. I think you have to be able to operate from different perspectives as a leader. I think, clearly, you can still articulate and live the standards that are a part of your operation or your unit or your football program. But again, it's about people.   Naviere Walkewicz 04:46 Well said. It really is.   Wyatt Hornsby 04:47 Well said. Earlier in the conversation too, he had a point where he talked about three things, his philosophy of leadership. You talked to him about his philosophy of leadership. He talked about, as he said in that clip, being right there alongside your people. He talked about knowing your craft incredibly well — not just strategy, but also tactics. And as he mentioned in that clip really well, getting to know your people as humans and what makes them tick. It's easy to, listening to that conversation, it's easy to see why Coach Calhoun has been here for such a long time and been so successful as head football coach.   Naviere Walkewicz 05:25 I think one of the lines I remember him sharing about when we talked about leadership was — I think I asked him, like, “It seems like it's really personal,” and he says, “Absolutely, leadership is personal.” It's about being… understanding who, you know, what's going on in their lives, because if you can understand what they're going through, then you can help them through some challenges and move them to, you know, whatever everyone else is working through together. And so, I really appreciated that he talks about getting to know his people on a personal level, and he challenges all of his coaches to do the same. I think there was a point where he even shared that if he knew some of the team members better than the coaches did, then that was a problem, right? And so, I think he wanted to make sure that being a good leader is knowing who your people are and what they need.   Wyatt Hornsby 06:07 That's right. It's just so instructive and inspiring to those of us who are developing as leaders. And I mean, it goes without saying, college football is changing. It's changing a lot. But I think for Coach Calhoun, he just talks about, as you said, that importance of relationships. And amid all those in college sports, staying focused on the relationship aspect, getting to know his players and his coaches, and remaining hyper-focused on that mission, developing leaders of character for the Air Force and Space Force.   Naviere Walkewicz 06:38 What was something that you took from that personally, that, you know, maybe has evolved the way that you lead or are thinking about leadership?   Wyatt Hornsby 06:46 You know, I'm developing as a leader every day. I've had some tremendous mentors in my life, but I really — I enjoyed what he talked about, about knowing your craft. I think that's really important, because I think it helps you build credibility with those that you lead. Of course, you can't know everything about everything that you lead, but knowing your craft, understanding not just the strategies and the tactics, and I think that helps you build credibility with your team and provide the right leadership to set the vision and the priorities for your team.   Naviere Walkewicz 07:21 I love that. I think what I took from that conversation was really about being humble. I mean, to be where he at is in his career, and I just felt across the table someone who was so humble in every day, learning from everyone around him and trying to really kind of give back in that way. That's something I always want to try and strive to do.   Wyatt Hornsby 07:41 I agree completely. And by the way, he talked about his younger sister, a 10-time all-American, which is pretty incredible. She's also an Academy graduate. And I think if I recall, he said that he looks up to his younger sister. So, I took that away, too. Just a humble, humble leader.   Naviere Walkewicz 07:59 I love that. Well, I'd like to go into one of my favorite moments, and it was with Brig. Gen. Gavin P. Marks, Class of '96, the commandant of the Air Force Academy currently. And this one was special for me, Wyatt, for multiple reasons. I have two cadets, as you know, that are going through the Air Force Academy under his leadership, but he was also my basic cadet commander. So, when I was at the Academy as a four-degree, he was leading us through Basic Cadet Training. And a funny story I'll share with you: When I was later in my career as a civilian working at Offutt Air Force Base. He was the wing commander at office Air Force Base, and I was working at STRATCOM, Strategic Command. I turned around a corner, and I immediately go, “Huh, Gavin P. Marks!” and he started laughing, and he goes, “What year are you?” And I said, “'99,” and he said, “It's good that you still remember my middle initial.” But it stuck out to me and then the funny thing after that, I said, “I never knew you had so many teeth,” because he would scare us. But the reason why this podcast was so special was because I think it brought me to a new level of understanding that — in remembering that we're all human right, and so we all have things that we go through. And so, to hear him from his humble days, talking about his mom, I really just enjoyed his perspective on, you know, his career, which wasn't necessarily a trajectory that he was planning. He certainly had some goals of he would love to have been the commandant at the Academy, but it certainly, you know — it kind of moved in a way that we'll talk about in this clip. And so, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on that conversation before we jump into the clip.   Wyatt Hornsby 09:35 He has extraordinary presence — Gen. Marks does. And it came through not just in the podcast conversation. We had a reunion, several reunions, where he provided a senior leader briefing, and you can just feel that presence and that commitment and that dedication to the USAFA mission. And I'm really excited to hear this clip and then also share another thought on something from the conversation that really stuck out to me as well.   Naviere Walkewicz 10:00 All right. Well, let's roll the clip.   Brig. Gen. Marks 10:03 But as you command at higher levels, while the impact — and I probably should have said it this way: The impact that you would have on so many individual airmen's lives lessons, the impact that you can have on an individual airman's life magnifies based on rank. It is significant also, and I always — one of the things that I tell people all the time is, it's an oversimplification, but the only reason to have rank is to do good, is to do good things, to make things happen in a positive way that affect positively mission and benefit airmen's lives. That's it. That's all. And if rank becomes something different than that for you, you're in the wrong business, or we've given it to the wrong person. If I'm being honest with you.   Naviere Walkewicz 10:55 What did you think about when you heard that?   Wyatt Hornsby 10:56 I am glad that he is the commandant of cadets at the United States Air Force Academy. And I think that I would go so far as to say that what he said there probably reflects how many Air Force — probably all — Air Force Academy graduates feel about leadership, that it's an opportunity to do good for other people, to improve lives, to move people forward, to elevate performance, to lift others. So, super powerful.   Naviere Walkewicz 11:24 I think what was also really great about our conversation was how he talked about the importance of family. And I think when you — sometimes when you think about a leader that's made it to such levels in their career, you think, “Well, it's career above everything else.” But he actually talked about how there are a couple of times when he might have retired had he not had the support from his wife and from his family. And I thought that was really insightful as well, where he really consulted them on some of his biggest decisions.   Wyatt Hornsby 11:52 That's right, perhaps his closest and most valued partners in life.   Naviere Walkewicz 11:56 Yes, I think that's something that our listeners can really value. I know I took that to heart as well, because while it is important, and obviously our professional lives are such a huge part of our lives, our lives are much more holistic than that, right? I think having your networks of support and leadership are really important.   Wyatt Hornsby 12:14 I agree. And Naviere, while we're talking about Gen. Marks too, I gotta put in a plug, and I know we're not gonna listen to this clip, but he told an awesome story about a $20 bill and the Honor Code.   Naviere Walkewicz Yes.   Wyatt Hornsby And as I recall, he really talked about how that was one of the experiences that made him see this United States Air Force Academy — it's a unique and different kind of place.   Naviere Walkewicz 12:38 Absolutely, and so if you missed that, it's a great time for you to go back to longblueleadership.org and listen to that clip in its full entirety.   Wyatt Hornsby 12:48 That's right. Let's talk about Nicole Malachowski, Class of 1996. This conversation — it was a recent conversation that you had with her — really stood out to me on a couple of different levels. Even as a child, she set her sights on what she wanted to do in life, which was to become a fighter pilot. She was focused on that, and at the height of her career, she had a very difficult setback that she spoke I thought very openly and vulnerably about. I just really appreciated that. But in this clip that we're going to play, Naviere, and I'd love to hear your reaction before our good friend, producer Ted rolls it, I would love to just hear your thoughts about this clip and just really important advice that a mentor provided to her at a key moment.   Naviere Walkewicz 13:33 I think you teed it up perfectly. I would say, from sitting across the table, what I felt when I heard that was just a sense of pride in remembering that we all bring something to the table, and empowerment in not being afraid to go forward with it. So, let's give it a listen.   Nicole Malachowski 13:51 I remember thinking, “Thank God I didn't put myself out there. Thank God, Nicole,” you know… now I'm a 30-year-old captain, so I'm still a young person. “Thank God you didn't risk failure. Who are you to think you could be a Thunderbird? Silly girl.” Right? And in that moment, the weirdest thing happened, and I tell this story on stage sometimes. The door opened to the Officer's Club, and in walked the wing commander, Brig. Gen. Mark Matthews. And in that moment, over walks my squadron commander, a wonderful man by the name of Dan DeBree. His call sign was “Trash.” Get it? Trash, debris. Trash walks over, super excited, very supportive of my application, and he's like, “Hey, general, did you know Nicole's applying to be a Thunderbird?” Man, I mean, you could have slowed down time. I was like, “Ix-nay on the underbird-tay,” like, “This is terrible.” Neither of these guys knew that I had removed my application, and Dan's standing there all proud. He's my squadron commander, supporting me — a great man, again. And Mark Matthews looks down at me, Gen. Matthews, and he goes, “That's great. How's your application going?” And I'm like — I looked at him, and here's what happened. I said, “You know, so it's hard to be a Thunderbird, but I probably won't get picked. They haven't had a woman, so I don't want to waste anybody's time.”   Naviere Walkewicz Oh, you said everything.   Nicole Malachowski I said it. I said all of it, and this is kind of an embarrassing story to tell, but I'm just, this is the truth, right? This is the vulnerable truth of how this happened. And he looked down at me, and I will never forget this, and I hope folks listening who have big dreams and gnarly goals remember this. He looked down at me and he said, “Nicole.” Actually, he said, “Fifi.” My call sign. “Fifi, nobody wants to lead a scripted life.” And he walked away and left me in extraordinarily uncomfortable silence. And those words, “…nobody wants to lead a scripted life…” have become my life's mantra. Every time I get the knot in my stomach that says that dream is too big or that idea is too innovative, don't rock the boat. I remember what he said, because those words, like, they lifted the weight of the world off my shoulders, told me it was OK to dream big. It was OK to buck the status quo. It was OK to be different. He was telling me it's OK to risk failure in pursuit of personal, professional growth. And it's not so much I think he's telling you and me to write ourselves into the script. What he was saying was, don't ever write yourself out of the script, and as leaders and teammates, don't you ever write anybody else or their wild ideas out of the script either.   Wyatt Hornsby 16:08 That is so powerful. I mean, I know that I have that inner critic, that voice that sometimes tells me, “Write yourself out of the script. You're not good enough. You're not going to make it. Why did you do that?” And probably a lot of us do. Naviere, what do you think?   Naviere Walkewicz 16:24 Oh, definitely. I mean, even up to that, she had had that voice in her head, and she shared, right before that clip, she finally got the courage to go into the group commander's office to submit that package. And, you know, the person working at the desk said, “Well, he really only has one, you know, one slot to give so we don't want to waste it on you.” And I think those very specific words make that inner voice, that inner critic, even louder and just kudos to the wing commander for really kind of right setting, I think a perspective that has clearly shaped her life.   Wyatt Hornsby 16:59 I agree completely. And we just talked about Gen. Marks and how he talked about doing good for others as a leader. And I think that's what we saw here with Gen. Matthews and the story that Nicole shared.   Naviere Walkewicz 17:11 Yes. There were so many amazing moments in her session with me, in her podcast, and so another one that I wanted to call out, because I think many may not know until they listen to her full story, but she actually battled a pretty critical, life-changing disease, and, frankly, she talked about resilience and how resilience is important, but really for her, it was about resurgence. I thought that was pretty powerful in that podcast as well. Did that kind of speak to you in any way?   Wyatt Hornsby 17:42 It really did. And I actually think it kind of goes back to “no one wants to lead a scripted life.” I don't think Nicole definitely had that in the script, her health challenge. But it came, and she spoke very honestly about it, about how difficult it was. She had some really, really difficult days, and she found a way forward. She wrote that new script for what she was going to do with the rest of her life. So, that moment really stuck out to me too. Super powerful conversation, and I got the sense too as I was listening to Nicole — and you did such a great job with that conversation — was that she knows who she is. You can tell that she has thought deeply about who she is as a person, as a leader, and she wants to go out and engage with and inspire other audiences and other leaders. So, really came out beautifully in this conversation.   Naviere Walkewicz 18:34 That was, in fact, I think one of her giving nuggets to others that were listening was really take the time to know who you are and know what you believe in, what you stand for, and then the rest kind of fills in the blanks.   Wyatt Hornsby Well said.   Naviere Walkewicz Well, the next one that I want to speak about is 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh, Class of '23 and Miss America.   Wyatt Hornsby Miss America.   Naviere Walkewicz Miss America. Can we just say that? But what was so great about this particular podcast was, yes, she is Miss America, but we spent so much time getting to know her. And really, I think the depth of who Madison Marsh is, it really kind of blew my mind.   Wyatt Hornsby 19:11 Yes. And similar to Nicole Malachowski — Madison Marsh, she had something really difficult happen to her that she's going to go into in the clip that we talked about, and no one should have to go through what Madison did, but she found a way forward. And I think just her story is remarkably inspiring.   Naviere Walkewicz 19:33 I actually don't want to give it away. I think we should just roll the clip.   Wyatt Hornsby 19:35 Let's do it.   Madison Marsh 19:36 I basically printed out all of my essays that I knew that people had to submit in the past for the Academy. I did resumes. I came with my GPA, everything, and I walked right up to my congressman and I handed it to him, and I said, “I want to go to the Air Force Academy, and I want to be your nominee.” And I'm sure he was like, who's…   Naviere Walkewicz …I love every bit of this…   Madison Marsh So, I was very firm early on, and so we were able to start an incredible relationship with one another. And so, because I did that — I think that was maybe my junior year, early on in my junior year — when it came time my senior year, he fought for me all of the time to get my application in front of people, because I was his principal nominee, and we had a very, very special moment. So, he called me on Oct. 31 and told me that I had gotten early acceptance to the Academy, and so I got to tell my mom, and the next morning she passed away. So having an experience like that is — that's why the Academy and Congressman Womack are so special to me, because that was my dream for years, and my mom got to know before she passed away. And it's just everything happens at the right timing, and you never know until afterwards. And so, now I get to be here; now I get to wear the uniform. And even though she hasn't gotten to see it, she got to know about it. And it just because of those first instances where I marched up to him and I said, like, I want to be here. I got to have experiences like that. And now I get to have wonderful experiences of now serving post-Academy life.   Naviere Walkewicz 21:04 I mean, I think that clip still gives me feelings of in that moment where she shared that because I had known that her mom had passed away. But I think what was so powerful about her sharing that story was in the bit of, you know, believing in yourself, going full for something, and then having someone believe in you and champion you to the point where, when you actually get there, and having her mom spend that with her before she passed. I just — that moment was something really special.   Wyatt Hornsby 21:34 It really is powerful. It must have been an honor and a privilege to have been able to share that moment with Lt. Marsh.   Naviere Walkewicz 21:41 It really was, and I think her whole conversation — what really inspired me, first, the fact that she actually started a foundation in her mom's name, the Whitney Marsh Foundation, but also more so that it actually shaped how she was as a cadet. She talked about, when she had the opportunity to champion others, so, you know, as she progressed in her cadet years, she wanted to make sure that other cadets had someone that they could talk to, so that she would be a voice for them, that she would hear them, and she would see them. And I think that was really powerful, because sometimes she was saying how she had felt lost and how she didn't have that support. And so, she turned it around and made sure that she was that person for someone else.   Wyatt Hornsby 22:19 Another example, Naviere, of someone who uses leadership opportunities to do good for others.   Naviere Walkewicz 22:25 Absolutely. And I thought, what was also fascinating, as such a young officer, she also — to Nicole Malachowski's point — took some time to know herself because she had been groomed, or maybe not groomed is not the right word, but she had, since early times of wanting to go to the Academy, had thought, I'm going to be a pilot and had been working towards her hours and her private pilot's license to get to the point where she could go to pilot training and become a pilot. And said, “Maybe this, this isn't my trajectory,” and looking into policy and so I think to the point of knowing who you are and knowing what you know you're really passionate about. Also, to what Coach Troy Calhoun said, they all kind of weave together. I thought that was really powerful.   Wyatt Hornsby 23:06 Agree. I thought it was very powerful too. And I'm really excited — I'm sure you are too, and a lot of graduates — just to see what she does with her life. I think that she's going to do some great work, and I think we're going to continue to hear about the amazing work that Madison Marsh is pushing forward, whether it's with cancer research and treatments or some other very, very important, worthy cause.   Naviere Walkewicz 23:29 Absolutely. No doubt about that.   Wyatt Hornsby 23:32 All right. Naviere, this next one, this was early Season 1, and our friend Dr. Doug Lindsay hosted this conversation. Doug is Class of 1992. It really stood out to me, and it was a conversation with Lt. Gen. (Ret.) B.J. Shwedo, Class of '87. Remarkable conversation with the director of the USAFA Institute for Future Conflict about the role that graduates are going to continue to play in our nation's security.   Naviere Walkewicz 23:59 I agree. Gen. Shwedo is such a dynamic speaker, and every time I have a chance to hear from him, I learn something new. But maybe for the sake of our listeners, in case they haven't heard that one yet, can you talk about what the IFC is?   Wyatt Hornsby 24:10 The IFC is the Institute for Future Conflict. So, it stood up a couple of years ago at the United States Air Force Academy. And really the goal is to inculcate across the Academy — and I'm not going to do this justice the way Gen. Shwedo can — but to inculcate across the Academy a focus on preparing cadets for what they will be facing amid Great Power Competition and for them to be able to bring that holistic thinking and that multi-domain thinking to how to fight and win the nation's wars if they are called upon.   Naviere Walkewicz 24:45 It's pretty incredible, some of the things that our cadets are exposed to. I remember when I was a cadet, I couldn't imagine have been briefed by some of our combatant commanders and having top-secret clearance levels to understand, really, what the adversary looks like and what we're up against. But they're looking at it across all different domains, and it's preparing our soon-to-be graduates for what's up for them right after.   Wyatt Hornsby 25:11 That's right. And one thing I'll mention before we roll the clip: Like you Naviere, I've heard Gen. Shwedo talk. In fact, we've been in probably many of the same talks, and graduates respond so well to what he shares, and I think it just instills even more confidence in the mission and the priorities of the Air Force Academy. So, without further ado, what do you say we roll that clip?   Naviere Walkewicz Let's roll the clip.   Gen. Shwedo 25:34 What we got to do is make them aware of the environment we're dumping them in. And case in point, I have one cadet he raises his hand like, you know, “Hypersonic missiles — I don't understand what's the big deal about that.” And I go, “OK, well, first of all, yes, they're fast, but as you remember from Physics 110, a ballistic missile trajectory is all mathematics. That's how the Patriot works. Hypersonic missiles can maneuver. So, all your math is now dead,” and go, “Oh, by the way, when you look down the range and you see all those antennas, NORAD, for the most part, was looking up to the north, because the quickest way to get an ICBM to the United States was over the top. You can actually take a hypersonic missile, put it in a low-Earth orbit, and that attack will come out of Antarctica.” Same cadet immediately raises his hand and goes, “So the maneuvering, is that RF, command guy?” and he's immediately trying to get into it. And I'm like, “I love you, man.” Because honestly, when you start making them aware of the threats, they immediately start thinking countermeasures. So, from the leadership standpoint, they understand that piece.   Naviere Walkewicz 26:44 Yes, I think that is huge. And it really talks about understanding what you're up against. I think what I really loved about what Gen. Shwedo said, was having the awareness allowed for them to start thinking about countermeasures. And I think that really does translate to leadership. When you have awareness of things, you can make better decisions. You can think about how you take care of your people better. It just actually translates across so many levels of leadership. What do you think?   Wyatt Hornsby 27:09 I agree completely, and I think too, just spending time with cadets — you would know better than I Naviere, you have two up on the Hill right now — but so curious, so curious. And they're here for a reason. They had choices in where they could have pursued what they wanted to do after high school, and they chose the United States Air Force Academy because they want to serve our country and, if called upon, fight and win those nation's wars. And so, just kudos to the work not only Gen. Shwedo is doing, but the cadets too, who are just so curious and so responsive to that awareness and really thinking deeply and preparing themselves for what the world is confronting the United States and our allies with.   Naviere Walkewicz 27:53 Absolutely. I think, what I really appreciate about Gen. Shwedo as well is he's another graduate that's giving back to our Academy, right? He's facilitating all of these lessons. He's helping to really promote how we can do this better. But it goes to show how our graduates are really involved with our Air Force Academy.   Wyatt Hornsby 28:12 A lifetime of service. I think that's what Gen. Shwedo would say. He came back because he wanted to continue to serve.   Naviere Walkewicz 28:18 Yes, absolutely. Well, the last moment that we'll talk about — and again, this was so hard, because there were so many good ones — comes from Karl Falk, Class of '98 the CEO of Botdoc. And this one was special for me, not only because we were at the Academy together, but I didn't know him then, and I know him now as a parent of also a cadet at the Academy. And his story was so, so incredible. Because when you think of a CEO of anything, you think, “Wow, this person's so accomplished. They've done all of these things.” And, you know, they must be doing great, and he is, but it started from humble beginnings. And when you take the time to listen to his podcast, it will really kind of help you see that you can start from anywhere and achieve anything, just as he did. This particular clip I have picked for us to listen to, though, is about kind of having people in your corner, and when people recognize in you, maybe before you do, how they can champion you. Let's give it a listen.   Karl Falk 29:20 You know, being in Texas, there's more spotlight on football, and I had some very good coaches. My head football coach in high school, Coach Bubba Fife — everyone in Katie knows Bubba Fife — and even to this day, he's still involved in the in the school district. But he was a big advocate for me, with coaches that came by, and there's some stuff I didn't find out until out until later in life where, you know, back then, it wasn't common for the school to provide shoes and, you know, some guys had their own pads and stuff like that. And I remember my mom years later telling me that actually Coach Fife came to her with money and said, “This is, uh — get him some shoes.” Sorry. That got to me a little bit more than I thought it was gonna be. So, I guess what I can say is, there's been a lot of people, I'm where I'm today because of a lot of people throughout my entire life, and I have a lot to be grateful for. But I was very fortunate to have those coaches in my life because — there was actually a time, this is actually a crazy story. There was a time where — so, I was the big, fat tuba player too. So, I kind of did everything because I enjoyed it, but there was a point where I kind of had to make a decision, because I was actually the guy that was playing football, and then, you know, marching band and football, and that's really tough to do. And I had made up in my mind that I was going to quit football, and because, you know, I didn't have a dad around, and my mom wasn't really into sports, like, I am and my kids are now. And I made up my mind, so I went to talk to one of the coaches, Coach Schubert, and, and I told him, I said, “I'm gonna quit football and, you know, I'm gonna be in the band.” And, and he looks at me, he goes, “No!”   Naviere Walkewicz 31:22 Right there. Sometimes the best answer you can get from a boss or a mentor or anybody is, “no.” What do you think, Wyatt?   Wyatt Hornsby 31:29 And by the way, Naviere, I'm trying to figure out the logistics. How do you play football and participate in the band? I played football in high school. I just don't know how you do that.   Naviere Walkewicz 31:40 You probably didn't change your clothes. You probably wore your uniform, though.   Wyatt Hornsby 31:43 Oh my gosh, like, I don't even know how you do that. But no, this was an extraordinary conversation. And you know, one of the things I like about the conversations that you've led and hosted, Naviere, is really going back to the beginning. And my takeaway from that conversation with Karl and that clip that we just played: He's never forgotten where he came from. As you said, he's become very successful in life. He's done well for himself, but he's never forgotten where he came from and who helped him along the way. Sometimes, Naviere, it just takes a pair of shoes.   Naviere Walkewicz 32:19 Oh gosh, that conversation was like I was getting to know someone all over again, because I got to know him as a parent of a fellow cadet. Him and his sons, Alec and Arden, were cadets there at the Prep School, now in the Class of '27, but seeing him through his own eyes, it just opened up a whole new experience for me. And I think one of the things I appreciated about his conversation as well was he talked about some of the tough times in getting to be successful. And while, yes, he had those people in his corner that helped him get there, there were times when — I think he even said, you know, “I didn't pay myself, like we might have missed a meal so that my folks could eat,” when he was still building his business. And I think it talks about the grit and kind of hard work and perseverance it takes to become successful. So, while he never forgot where he came from, he also talked about kind of the path to get there, and just the resilience and all of that in that. And I thought that was a really powerful story he shared.   Wyatt Hornsby 33:13 Agree, and I would suspect that grit and that perseverance, those were formed early in life, but then also really developed when he was here at the Academy. What do you think?   Naviere Walkewicz 33:26 Agree. And I think, and we talked about the lifetime of service that our graduates live. His company has actually given back to the Class of '27 through various ways. And so, I think it really does kind of show how, you know, you never forget where you come from, and then when you can, you give in ways that are meaningful. I think that's really powerful too.   Wyatt Hornsby 33:44 That's right. Well, Naviere, that was an awesome conversation. I just so enjoyed revisiting those conversations, and again, just mad congratulations to you, and thanks to you and Doug for just doing such a great job. I mean, this was tough, choosing the conversations that we just talked about, because there are just so many great ones, so many great ones. And I hope that our listeners will go back and listen to those conversations from seasons 1 and 2. But while they're at it, also tell others about Long Blue Leadership. Help spread the word, because these conversations are really impactful.   Naviere Walkewicz 34:20 Absolutely, and we can really use feedback coming directly to us at socialmedia@usafa.org. That's a way they can directly let us know what they enjoyed, what we can do better and what they can look forward to in Season 3.   Wyatt Hornsby 34:32 That's right. I mean, the podcast space, it's competitive, and there are a lot of great podcast shows out there, and so we know we just have to continue to raise that bar and elevate what we're doing. So, our listener feedback is so important and just continuous improvement and excellence in all we do.   Naviere Walkewicz 34:49 Absolutely. Well, thanks. Wyatt. Well, before we share what's coming up in Season 3, we'd like to take a moment and thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. The podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio and is available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Watch or listen to all episodes of Long Blue Leadership at longblueleadership.org.   Wyatt Hornsby 35:11 Naviere, this was a real pleasure. I really enjoyed talking about these awesome episodes from seasons 1 and 2. And while we're at it, let's also thank our good friend Ted, who's done just remarkable work in helping to produce this show. And our listeners may not get to hear much from Ted, but he is behind the scenes doing awesome work on the show.   Naviere Walkewicz 35:32 He really is. Ted makes us look great, and when you say congratulations to me, it's only because Ted has been right alongside me all this way, and Doug, and anyone else that's been part of this podcast. It really has been us working with Ted.   Wyatt Hornsby 35:46 So, Ted, I'm going to put you on the spot. Share with us a little bit about maybe a couple of your takeaways from seasons 1 and 2, and what this process, what this experience has been like for you.   Ted Robertson 35:59 I can think about the first day I walked in the door, had my first eyes on the studio, and I'm thinking, “We're gonna have some fun here. We're gonna touch some lives, and we're gonna do some great things.” And it's been a real privilege to be a part of the communications team. And I talk a lot about the people that I work with, but Naviere, you've become a partner, and together, along with everybody else on the team, we're looking forward to bringing some more of these moments to our listeners and just sharing what leadership is all about. And we want to make it global. So, Season 3 coming and lots of great things to come in Season 3. I hope that sort of answers your question. The highlights for me are working with all of you.   Naviere Walkewicz 36:50 Aww, thanks, Ted. And speaking of what Ted was talking about, Season 3 is coming up. Should we share some of the amazing guests we're gonna have on the podcast?   Wyatt Hornsby 36:59 I think we should, Naviere, I mean, I am like you. I am so excited about Season 3. We've got some amazing names and Naviere. One of our guests is going to be Dr. Heather Wilson, Class of '82, 24th secretary of the Air Force. And she's also currently the president of the University of Texas, El Paso. So cannot wait to have the secretary — I don't know whether to call her Secretary Wilson or Dr. Wilson.   Naviere Walkewicz 37:23 I'm sure I'm going to find out, because I'm so excited to have that conversation with her as well.   Wyatt Hornsby 37:27 Likewise, and Naviere, I think also, we have a classmate who we're going to be talking to?   Naviere Walkewicz 37:31 Oh, we have a couple of classmates, actually. So, one of them, Joel Neeb goes by call-sign “Thor,” — Class of '99, Gold Will Shine — who has been a tremendously successful fighter pilot. He's authored some books, a former CEO, but he dealt with some very specific, I think, health challenges that shaped a new trajectory for him. And I'm not going to give it away. I think that's what they'll learn about in the podcast.   Wyatt Hornsby 37:56 I've had a couple of opportunities to spend time with Thor, and I'm excited about this one too. I think it's going to be an awesome conversation.   Naviere Walkewicz 38:03 Yes. And his is one where it really is about family too. I think we're going to hear some of that. And then my other classmate is with the FBI, so Mark McCulloch, Class of '99, and I think you've actually done a story on him recently on your team.   Wyatt Hornsby 38:17 I think we did a story on him in Checkpoints a couple of years ago, written by Jeff Holmquist. Yeah, I can't wait for this one too.   Naviere Walkewicz 38:26 It's amazing what Class of '99 is doing, but there's others. Who else shall we highlight today, Wyatt?   Naviere Walkewicz 38:43 We also have some young alumni, current board directors that will be speaking to. One of them is a Young Alumni Excellence Award winner, Emma Przybyslawski, Class of 2010.   Wyatt Hornsby 38:51 Can't wait to hear that one. And Emma — so she recently, as you said, received the Young Alumni Excellence Award. And I thought I knew Emma, and I learned a few things about her in our profile of her. So, that's going to be an awesome conversation.   Naviere Walkewicz 39:06 Can't wait to speak with her. And then Joe Bledsoe, class president for the Class of 2011, but also working with Gen. Shwedo right now.   Wyatt Hornsby 39:13 That's right. He's a fellow up in the Institute for Future Conflict. And again, just a remarkable graduate, a fighter pilot, really looking forward to that conversation. end of year. One other that I'm really excited about, Matt Kuta, Class of 2005 co-founder of Voyager Space and a former fighter pilot, really looking forward to that conversation as well.   Naviere Walkewicz 39:36 We have so many amazing grads to share stories with, and we could go down the list, but I think that's a good one just to, you know, whet the appetite. What do you think?   Wyatt Hornsby 39:44 I agree completely. I'm just excited about Season 3 and we'll get this going.   Naviere Walkewicz 39:49 Absolutely. Wyatt, this has been a blast. Thank you so much for joining me today.   Wyatt Hornsby 39:53 And thank you for inviting me, Naviere. This was a lot of fun.   Naviere Walkewicz 39:57 Absolutely, and we thank you for joining us as well. We can't wait to share our third season of Long Blue Leadershipbeginning this February. You can expect more compelling stories from outstanding USAFA graduates, each sharing unique perspectives and practical advice on overcoming challenges and inspiring others. With a mix of thought-provoking conversations and real-life experiences, Season 3 promises to engage, inspire and empower both seasoned and aspiring leaders alike. Visit longblueleadership.org for more episodes and to subscribe. Also, nominate a guest or send us your feedback at socialmedia@usafa.org, and finally, Long Blue Leadership is available on all of your favorite podcast apps. We can't wait to see you there.   KEYWORDS leadership lessons, season highlights, guest perspectives, teamwork, perseverance, humility, service, season three preview, Gavin Marks, Commandant of Cadets, Nicole Malachowski, Thunderbird pilot, tick born illness, Lyme Disease, Coach Calhoun, Falcons Football, Madison Marsh, Miss America, Karl Falk, Bot Doc, B.J. Schwedo, Institute for Future Conflict, leadership journey, character development, personal growth, mentorship, resilience, future conflict       The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation  

In Episode 10 of Long Blue Leadership, Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Burt Field '79, now president and CEO of the Air & Space Forces Association, discusses his leadership philosophy, and emphasizes the importance of continuous learning, effective communication, family, and the five core values by which he lives. Listen now!   SUMMARY Burt Field, a retired Lieutenant General and CEO of the Air and Space Forces Association, discussed his career and leadership philosophy. He highlighted his upbringing as an Air Force brat, his academic journey at the Air Force Academy, and his early leadership roles. Field emphasized the importance of continuous learning, effective communication, and avoiding being an "asshole" in leadership. He shared impactful experiences, such as leading during the 2011 Japan earthquake and tsunami, and the significance of family support. Field also discussed the Air and Space Forces Association's efforts in advocacy, education, and family resilience, stressing the need for strong national security and defense.   LEADERSHIP BITES Values-Driven Leadership: Burt shared his 5 core leadership values - integrity, fortitude, excellence, teamwork, and service. Defining your values and using them to guide your decisions and actions is crucial. Continuous Learning: Burt emphasized that as a leader, you can never stop learning, whether it's about your organization, industry, or even topics outside your expertise. Staying curious and open to growth is key. Empowering Others: Burt stressed that a leader's job is to empower and inspire their team, not try to do everything themselves. Recognizing and rewarding excellence in others is vital. Effective Communication: Burt noted that leaders can never communicate too much or well enough. Repeatedly delivering clear, consistent messages is essential for alignment and buy-in. Humility and Inclusivity: True leadership requires humility, giving credit to others, and making the organization successful.   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN  |  FACEBOOK   TAKEAWAYS Never stop learning. As a leader, you must continuously learn and expand your knowledge, even in areas outside your expertise. Define your leadership philosophy and values. Burt shared his 5 core values of integrity, fortitude, excellence, teamwork, and service. Having a clear set of guiding principles is crucial. Recognize and reward excellence. Identify and empower those who have put in the hard work to become experts in their fields. This builds a strong, capable team. Communicate effectively, repeatedly. Effective communication is critical, but leaders often underestimate how many times a message needs to be delivered clearly. Burt emphasized the importance of being inclusive, giving credit, and making the organization successful rather than yourself. Avoid toxic, self-serving leadership.   CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to General Burt Field 01:52 Growing Up as an Air Force Brat 05:40 Choosing the Air Force Academy 10:26 Life as a Cadet at the Academy 19:09 Leadership Development During Cadet Years 23:15 The Integration of Women at the Academy 24:12 Influential Leaders in General Field's Career 28:28 Learning from Subordinates 34:15 Career Path and Leadership Philosophy 37:54 A Chance Encounter: Love and Military Life 41:13 Building Resilient Families in the Military 42:12 The Journey to Leadership: From Air Force to AFA 45:57 Empowering the Next Generation: Education and STEM 49:46 Leadership Lessons: Insights from Experience   5 FRANK KEYS TO LEADERSHIP SUCCESS "You can never stop learning. You have to learn. And whether it's leadership or anything else, you have to always learn." "Everything comes from your values. When I make leadership decisions, or when I look at how we're going to move forward, or what, how we're going to accomplish the mission, it should reflect those values in my decisions, how I act, how I from the biggest thing of creating a here's the strategy, or in objectives on on what we're going to accomplish, to the smallest things, like how I conduct a meeting." "If you want to be a really good leader, you need to be really good at something. So you got to put in the work when you're young to be really good and understand how hard it is to be really good at something." "You cannot communicate enough, and you cannot communicate well enough. So I use this example all the time. I come up with a message. I craft it, I think about it, I write it down, I practice it, and then I deliver it, and it's awesome. I was perfect. I nobody could have misunderstood me when I'm done with that, and I really think that I have hit the mark with maybe 20% I probably got to say that again, that way or differently, about another 10 or 15 times when I can barely stand to hear myself talk anymore, and I'm still not going to get everybody." "I'm going to give the credit and I'm going to take the blame. That's how you become a good leader."  - Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Burt Field '79, October 2024   ABOUT GEN. FIELD BIO Lt. Gen. Burt Field, USAF (Ret.), is President and Chief Executive Officer of the Air & Space Forces Association, leading the Association's professional staff in its mission to advocate, educate, and support the Air & Space Forces. As CEO, he oversees operations and resourcing for AFA and its 113,000 members, including events, publications, and the Mitchell Institue for Aerospace Studies, the nation's only think tank dedicated to air and space power.   A veteran of 35 years of Air Force service, Field retired from active duty in 2015 following his final tour, as Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations, Plans, and Requirements. Throughout his career, Field commanded a squadron, the Air Force Weapons School, three wings, a numbered Air Force, and a sub-unified command. A command pilot with over 3,400 flying hours in the F-16 and F-22, he served twice on the Joint Staff and completed a tour in the State Department as the military assistant to Ambassador Richard Holbrooke, the Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan. In his last assignment, he led policy and requirements decision-making for air, space, irregular warfare, counter-proliferation, homeland security, and cyber operations. Prior to that assignment, he served as the Commander of United States Forces, Japan, and Commander of 5th Air Force from 2010-2012 where he led the U.S. military response to support Japan during the earthquake, tsunami, and nuclear disaster of 2011.   Following his retirement, he served as the Vice President of Strategic Planning for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, developing strategies that guided and contributed to over $5 billion in growth in a five-year period. He also managed a $500 million New Business Funds portfolio for independent research and development. Since 2020, he has been an independent defense consultant, served as a subject matter expert working with and mentoring Airmen at all levels, and a member of the Board of Trustees for the U.S. Air Force Academy Falcon Foundation.   Field graduated from the Air Force Academy in 1979 and earned a master's degree in business administration from Golden Gate University in San Francisco. He and his wife, Lisa, have two sons, both officers in the USAF. - Bio image and copy credit: AFA.org     CONNECT WITH GEN. FIELD LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK | AIR & SPACE FORCES ASSOCIATION     ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!          TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS GUEST:  Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Burt Field '79 | Host:  Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99   Naviere Walkewicz 00:00 My guest today is Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Burt Field USAFA Class of '79, president and CEO of the Air & Space Forces Association. He spent 35 years in the Air Force, retiring in 2015 as deputy chief of staff for operations, plans and requirements. Gen. Field has held many positions of leadership throughout his career, including squadron command, the Air Force Weapons School and three wings. He has served as a command pilot with over 3,400 hours in the F-16 and F-22. He completed a tour in the State Department as the military assistant to Ambassador Richard Holbrooke. He has also served as the commander of United States Forces, Japan, and commander of the 5th Air Force from 2010 to 2012. In his post military career, he served as vice president of strategic planning for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics. He has been an independent defense consultant and has served as a subject matter expert, working with and mentoring airmen. He is also a member of the board of trustees for the United States Air Force Academy Falcon Foundation. Today, we'll talk with Gen. Field about his life before, during and after the Academy. We'll discuss his role in leading the Air & Space Forces Association. And finally, we'll ask the general to share advice in leadership development. Gen. Field, welcome to Long Blue Leadership.   Burt Field 01:23 Thank you, Naviere. Please call me Burt.   Naviere Walkewicz 01:24 OK, yes, sir, Burt. Will do. And I will say that was quite an introduction. You have had an incredible and ongoing career.   Burt Field 01:30 Well, frankly, and no false modesty, I was lucky to be in the right place at the right time and take advantage of the opportunities presented to me.   Naviere Walkewicz 01:39 Well, I appreciate you saying that, and I think our listeners are really going to enjoy hearing about what some of those right places at the right time kind of look like. But here's what we do at Long Blue Leadership: We like to rewind the clock a little bit and start with Burt as a child. What were you like growing up? Where was home?   Burt Field 01:56 Well, I'm an Air Force brat. My dad was a fighter pilot. I like to say his first assignment was the Korean War, flying F-86s and his last flight was in an F-4 over Hanoi. Now, didn't get shot down, but that was his last flight. So, I grew up traveling around both country and the world and went to a bunch of different elementary schools and then three high schools before I ended up at the Air Force Academy.   Naviere Walkewicz 02:27 Wow. I can imagine some of our listeners have also been some kind of service brat. As I always say, I was an Air Force brat as well. Are you an only child? Do you have siblings?   Burt Field 02:37 I have three sisters. I have one older sister and two younger sisters, which irritated me to no end when I was a kid, but now we couldn't be closer.   Naviere Walkewicz 02:49 So did you get special benefits because you were the only boy of all the girls?   Burt Field 02:53 Of course not. Now, their stories are a little different, but of course not.   Naviere Walkewicz 02:57 Understood. And did they also serve as well.   Burt Field 03:01 They did not. None of them did. My older sister's a doctor. My next down is an accountant and CFO, and the one below that is a bunch of different medical community things and a nutritionist.   Naviere Walkewicz 03:15 Wow. So, you are the one who followed in the military family footsteps.   Burt Field 03:18 I was, but interestingly enough, I never really thought about it growing up. My dad just happened to be in the Air Force. He just happened to fly airplanes. And you know, whoever you were, your dad was a doctor, lawyer, plumber, dentist, truck driver, whatever, and now let's go play ball. And that's pretty much the extent of it. But when I was in high school, I knew that I needed to start figuring out what I was going to do, because I'm pretty sure my dad wasn't going to let me just lay around the house after I graduated. And I was definitely afraid of being bored, and nothing really sounded good — doctor, lawyer, dentist, plumber, truck driver — none of it was good. So, I came into the house one day in my junior year, and I attribute this to the Air Force Association: The magazine was laying on our coffee table, and it was face down, and on the back was a picture of the F-15, which was one of the brand new airplanes that was coming out. And I looked down at it, and for whatever reason, it clicked, and I said, “That does not look boring.” And I went and talked to my dad, because I figured he might know how to do this. So, he did some research for me, and he said, “Well, to go to pilot training…" And this was 1974 and that's the wind down of the Vietnam War and letting a lot of people out of the Air Force, “…to go to pilot training, you have to be an Air Force Academy graduate, or distinguished graduate from ROTC.” Well, my dad had retired, or was about to retire, and we were going to move to Florida for my senior year, and I was going to go to the University of Florida, like everybody in my family did, except for two, and so I knew that the Air Force Academy would provide me an avenue, and the University of Florida would provide me an avenue to be a bellboy down in a Key West hotel when I graduated.   Naviere Walkewicz 05:18 So you chose the Air Force Academy, of course. So, that's interesting. Forty-five years later, you are now the president and CEO of the Air & Space Forces Association, which was what kind of caught your eye in high school.   Burt Field 05:34 It's really kind of amazing. And the editor of the magazine — they have a bunch of back issues at our headquarters building, and he found that magazine.   Naviere Walkewicz 05:47 Oh my goodness, I hope that's framed in your office now.   Burt Field It is.   Naviere Walkewicz Oh, that's amazing. What a story. And we're going to talk more about that. I really want to hear more about that role, but let's stay in the childhood range a little bit. So you were going to go to the Air Force Academy. Were you already involved in sports? Was that something—   Burt Field 06:06 Yeah, so, I played baseball growing up. We moved around a lot, so it was hard to play a lot of other sports. I did Pop Warner football, played basketball, you know, on teams growing up. And I was a good athlete but not a great athlete, and so I wasn't recruited for going to come here to the Academy. But I played football, I wrestled and played baseball until my sophomore year, when I blew up my shoulder and couldn't throw anymore. Then I just wrestled and played football for the rest of my high school career, and then when I came here, I just played intramurals until a friend of mine that was a couple years older was on the rugby team, and so he kind of said, “Hey, come on out, you'll like this.” And so it was the rugby club back then, and it was a way to get out of stuff in the afternoons when you're a freshman. So I came down and I played on the rugby team for a few years.   Naviere Walkewicz 07:10 I have a lot of rugby friends, and it definitely is, it's a family, for sure.   Burt Field 07:15 It is. And it was really that way back then. It was all local Colorado sports teams. You know, the guys who were 45 and over down to other colleges around the state.   Naviere Walkewicz 07:28 Your extended family.     Burt Field Right.   Naviere Walkewicz So, speaking of family, how did your — I think I know how your dad felt about you wanting to come to the Air Force Academy. How about your mom?    Burt Field 07:37 She was pretty proud of me. Both of them were mad because I only applied to one place.   Naviere Walkewicz 07:44 So, it was here or a bellboy.   Burt Field 07:48 It was here or a bellboy somewhere. But they were pretty proud of me, and they were really proud, obviously, when I graduated.   Naviere Walkewicz So, you came into the Academy. You had a little bit of an idea of what to expect, because your dad had been the military, right?   Burt Field 10:06 Well, no, nobody is prepared for the Academy.   Naviere Walkewicz That's true.   Burt Field I mean, your dad went to the Academy and…   Naviere Walkewicz They were classmates.   Burt Field And you were not prepared.   Naviere Walkewicz That's true.   Burt Field Because you are immediately thrown into the deep end of a very cold, murky pool and told to start swimming. But the interesting thing: I came out with a few guys from my local area, and the way we did it back then is, you told the Academy what hotel you were gonna stay at, and they came and picked you up in a bus and they drove you onto the Academy and dropped you off at the base of the ramp, and you jumped off the bus, and all your newfound friends started telling you all the things that were wrong with you personally, with your family, your genetics, your upbringing, and how you would never amount to anything ever in your entire life. And then they take you — I wasn't really good with authoritarian figures.   Naviere Walkewicz 11:10 Well, I can imagine, with three sisters, you probably chose your own path, right?   Burt Field 11:15 So, you can imagine — as we're most of my classmates. We all are kind of like that. So, I wasn't sure that this was for me, but it was 1975 and everybody had long hair. So as soon as I got my head shaved, I said, “Well, I'm staying here at least until I get my hair back.”   Naviere Walkewicz 11:37 That was a good thing then.   Burt Field 11:39 That kept me here. And so then I kept staying. But that first day was a bit of a shock, as it is with everybody around here. But, I have a great memory. I was standing in line getting something issued to me, and the guy behind me and I started talking, and he actually graduated from the high school that I spent my ninth and 10th grade in in Las Vegas, Nevada. His name's John Pickitt. And so we became friends, and he's the godfather of our oldest child, along with Tom McCarthy, who you met earlier today.   Naviere Walkewicz 12:16 Wow. I mean, it really is… We talk about family a lot in our podcast, and family spans way beyond blood.   Burt Field 12:26 Yep, it sure does, especially with graduates of the Air Force Academy.   Naviere Walkewicz 12:31 Yes, 100%. Wow. So you jumped into that murky pool and making friends along the way. What was life like for you as a cadet? Were you really strong in your academics? I mean, obviously you were an athlete, because you were doing everything.   Burt Field 12:45 I mean, everybody did that kind of stuff. So, I got good grades in high school, and I got good grades here, except for one semester. So, I was on the supt's list every semester except for one. That's just the way it was.   Naviere Walkewicz That's amazing.   Burt Field I would do it different now, if I had it to do over again, because I got on the dean's list by cramming instead of doing my homework. And so every young person that goes to the Air Force Academy, I tell them, “There's one way to success and happiness at the Air Force Academy…” I don't tell them this, not that they're going to be happy, because they're not. But I tell them, “Do your homework every night.”   Naviere Walkewicz 13:32 That's right. I think there was a saying: “If you wait to the last minute, it only takes a minute, but then you get to see…   Burt Field You really reap the results.   Naviere Walkewicz 13:42 Exactly, exactly.   Burt Field So, that's no different than a lot of my friends. And back then, you're pretty restricted to the Academy, especially your first year, and then gradually you get out more and more. So, it wasn't like we were out and about very much.   Naviere Walkewicz Right.   Burt Field We stayed around here. We worked out a lot. We played games, sports on the weekends, and that was it.   Naviere Walkewicz 14:07 And were you 1 and 3? What was the squadron change like? Was it 2 and 2 back then?   Burt Field 14:13 And so 1 and 3. So, I was in 35 as of Doolie, and the only squadron— 35 and 38, they're still together, but it was carpeted, and we had carpeting, and so we took a lot of heat from people just because of that.   Naviere Walkewicz Because you had it nicer?   Burt Field Yeah, then I went into 27 and graduated from 27.   Naviere Walkewicz 14:38 OK, and your son is also a graduate from your legacy squadron, 27.   Burt Field 14:42 He is. He graduated in 2008.   Naviere Walkewicz 14:43 Love that legacy. Great. What a wonderful legacy. So your cadet time sounds like it was pretty pleasant, or…   Burt Field 14:50 Oh yes, just like everybody's. Everybody leaves here with a love-hate relationship with the Air Force Academy and it changes over time from mostly hate to mostly love. So, that was no different with us. I had a group of great friends, both in my squadron and outside my squadron, from the rugby team and a couple other places. And so it was like — I tell everybody, 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th grade.   Naviere Walkewicz 15:24 I love that. That's a great way to put that into an analogy, yes, because you're still developing.   Burt Field 15:31 Classes, you know, five or six classes a day. I play sports after school. I go home and do homework or avoid homework and go to bed so I can't go out during the weeknights. Can't go out very often on the weekends. And, there you go.   Naviere Walkewicz 15:45 That's right. That's very much like high school, absolutely. So we like to talk about how you developed as a leader, even early on. And so we're getting to know you a little bit better. While you were cadet, did you hold any leadership positions in particular?   Burt Field 16:02 Well, I was the — what did I do? I did something as a third-classman. Oh yeah, chief of training? Or whatever.   Naviere Walkewicz 16:11 Sounds like it could be accurate.   Burt Field 16:12 Back in the day, the the guy that was in charge of training for the freshman. I was an ops officer when I was the, I mean, op sergeant when I was a junior, squadron commander when I was a senior. So nothing hugely out of the ordinary. I like that kind of role and that kind of challenge, but I wanted to stay inside my squadron. So, when I got offered a chance to, “Hey, do you want to be on a group staff or wing staff?” I declined.   Naviere Walkewicz Tell me more. Why?   Burt Field Because my brothers were my squadron.   Naviere Walkewicz OK, I love that, yes.   Burt Field So, I didn't want to leave that for six months or four months, or whatever the time period was back then.   Naviere Walkewicz 17:05 So, leadership in your squadron, and this is interesting, and this is a good topic, because some of our listeners, some of the challenges that they experience in leadership is on a peer level, or maybe, you know, how do you lead someone that you're really close with? How do you earn that trust? So maybe you can share some lessons that you have learned about yourself during that time.   Burt Field 17:24 Well, I always tell people that the hardest leadership challenge that we face is when you have no authority and you still need to lead, and regardless of what we say about cadet squadron commanders, you know, we can all think we're in charge, but we're not that in charge. And so what you had to do is you had to lead by influence and by doing the right thing. And so whether we agree with that, it's the right thing, because I don't want to do it, because it's no fun, because I'd rather do something else. Everybody knows what you have to do at the Air Force Academy on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, on the way through the week. And so we just went and did it. And I encouraged people to come and do it all with me, whether it's doing drill, whether it's playing intramural sports, whether, “Hey, it's your turn to be the referee for this season,” whether we want to go to these whatever it was. So you just encourage people to do that, and then you talk to people and try to empower them so that they can figure that out on their own, and then later pass that on as leaders themselves.   Naviere Walkewicz 18:44 No, those are really great examples. And I think just leadership tidbits that some of our listeners can take, and it really is some of the best ways, just leading by example and then inviting them to join you on that, absolutely. OK, so your cadet career was, I think, really important to you, because it formed you, and it formed you like you said your brothers, because you were the last class of all men cadets together. So how did that translate? And if I may be so bold, you started having women cadets there while you're at the Academy as well. Can you share some of the dynamics of that then at the Academy, and maybe some of the stories that you saw of how that really evolved into a stronger Academy that we have today?   Burt Field 19:26 Yeah, let me put some of this in perspective, and I'll start with a story. I get a large ration of crap from my friends that are in '80 and '81 that I'm really close with because of my role in terrorizing the women of the Class of '80, which I said, “Exactly, what role was that?” Basically, these guys considered us the source of all evil. My perspective was different, and it's just my perspective. When I talked to my classmates, most of them — I'm talking about most of them, not all of them — we were children that grew up and came of age in the late '60s and early '70s, which was basically that whole protest movement, grow your hair long, protest the Vietnam War, and we really didn't care that much that women were coming into the Air Force Academy, because most of us were smart enough to know that the only reason that women were not in my class and they were in that class was an accident of birth and the accident of when the legislation passed to do the right thing in the United States of America. So there's nothing special about being the last all-male class. There's nothing special about being the first class that had women in it, other than, you know, it was the end of one way of doing business and the beginning of another way of doing business. To your point, I think it makes the Air Force stronger. It certainly makes our Academy better. While they were here, the first semester, all the women were in one part of the state, in one part of the Academy over in Fairchild Hall. And they were only in 20 squadrons, so 1 through 20.   Naviere Walkewicz In Vandenberg?   Burt Field In Vandenberg, I'm sorry. So we're they were only in 1 through 20 the first semester, for whatever reason. Then they came the next semester to our squadron, and you know, well, one of them I'm still friends with, so, to me, it was a no brainer. I wish I was more profound on this. This is one of the things that my friends from later classes yell at me about. But I didn't consider it to be that big of a deal. I didn't, at the time, think that this is some big historical event and change in the Air Force or the military, or anything else that we could all maybe talk about better today than I could back then. So for me and my friends that I knew, it was not an issue. I don't think I treated women any different than I treated men, and I don't think I treated women or men badly, regardless of my role and their role at the Academy.   Naviere Walkewicz I really appreciate that perspective.   Burt Field Yeah, so, you know, bluntly, most of us just didn't care.   Naviere Walkewicz 22:50 You were there just trying to get through the Academy, right?   Burt Field 22:53 That sounds terrible, but, I mean, I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about social implications of race, sex, gender, however you want to put it. I was just trying to get through the day without getting yelled at, like everybody else.   Naviere Walkewicz 23:12 Thank you for sharing that, because I think it's sometimes a question that people have, and it's really helpful to hear a perspective that really is, “We're all just trying to get through the Air Force Academy, we all come in, and we hope that we all graduate.”   Burt Field 23:23 Yeah, and some of them, very impressive, had huge careers. You know, Susan Helms, just one of my heroes, frankly, as a person, as an officer, that have nothing to do with her role in space. That just makes me more in awe of her. But, you know, there's a lot of great, great people out there, and a lot of them are women.   Naviere Walkewicz 23:49 Yes, thank you. Thank you for sharing that, and I appreciate that you said that. You know, Gen. Holmes is one of your heroes as well. Let's talk about some of those that maybe inspired you in leadership roles. It could be while you're a cadet, or maybe early in your career as an officer after you graduated. Maybe talk about some of those influencers.   Burt Field 24:09 Well, I had some great AOCs. My freshman AOC was a guy that was a Fast FAC in Vietnam, and actually was the guy that gave me a ride in a T-37, which was fantastic and really solidified what I wanted to do. My sophomore and junior year, my AOC was not that guy.   Naviere Walkewicz We learned from those leaders too.   Burt Field We'll probably talk about leadership philosophy later, and if you'll remind me, my last bullet on my leadership philosophy partly came from him. And then my senior year, we had a great guy named Ken Lawrence that came in that several of us are still in touch with. And he was both a welcome relief and a great role model for us as we spent that last year here at the Academy, before we went off. I went out in the Air Force and my first two squadron commanders, the first one was a guy named Tiny West, 6-foot-5, 270 pounds, barely fit into an F-16, and taught me how to fly fighters.   Naviere Walkewicz 25:21 I totally understand his call sign then.   Burt Field 25:24 Just a great guy. A second squadron commander was a guy named John Jumper, who ended up being the chief of staff of the Air Force and is still kind of like a second father to me.   Naviere Walkewicz Oh, wow.   Burt Field Let's see. And then multiple people along the way that you know, from crusty old majors and young captains that taught me how to fly the F-16 and in what we called RTU at the time, now, FTU in how we kind of learn together. Because when my class showed up at Hill in the B course, we went into the 34th at the time, tactical training fighter squadron. We were their first class, and the high-time guy in that squadron with F-16 time had 30 hours. So they were teaching all of us second lieutenants how to do this. Went from there down to Nellis and served under Tiny and John Jumper. So, that was how I started. And there's lots of great people in that time frame that obviously I'm still in touch with, and taught us how to fly. There's my squadron commander in Korea, which was my second assignment, another great role model. And then just on and on. When I came back to Nellis on my third assignment, I worked for a guy named Sandy Sandstrom. Sandy was one of my RTU instructors, also, and we became really lifelong friends. And he and his wife, Jeannie, have sadly passed away, but we, Lisa and I keep in touch with both their children to this day. Yeah. But anyway, there's a lot of great leaders, both above us in squadron commander roles, and then you watch your fellow officers and brothers and sisters, and see and you learn stuff, watching them, how they develop relationships, how they train, how they identify what's important, how they communicate, how they focus, how they connect. All of those things are important, and you can learn something from everybody around you. And if you don't, you're probably missing out.   Naviere Walkewicz 27:48 I appreciate that perspective. I think, especially as someone who is more experienced in leadership, the fact that you are looking to continue to learn and see what you can kind of pick up from those even that support you and serve under you. Can you share an example? Is there one that sticks out in your memory of someone that you're like, “Wow, that's something I really took back”?   Burt Field 28:08 Are you talking about somebody that served under me?   Naviere Walkewicz Mmm-hmm   Burt Field Oh, yeah, so, there's thousands of these. I'll tell you two stories. So I'm a squander commander, and I had a friend, a very close friend of mine, who was a squadron commander, and one of his guys was coming to our squadron, and he said, “This is a great guy. You're going to love him. Really good pilot…,” blah, blah, blah. It's his second assignment. And so he shows up in the squadron and we have about four or five guys about that that time in their career, and they're ready to become flight leads, which is leading flights in the fighter community. And so I put him in without really thinking this through, and one of the other guys came up and said, “Hey, I need to talk to you.” And he came in my office, and he explained to me how I wasn't looking at everybody through the same lens and was probably missing some of the things other people were seeing. And I mean, pretty blunt, pretty focused, not yelling, and just a straightforward conversation. And I sat back and thought for about five seconds, and I said, “Holy cow, Bruce Fisher is totally correct. I have missed the boat on this, and I'm never going to do that again.”   Naviere Walkewicz Wow.   Burt Field And so that was one guy. The second example I have is in Japan when I was a 3-star general. I was there during the earthquake, tsunami and nuclear disaster, and it was a wild time. It started on a Friday. On Monday, so Friday was the earthquake and the tsunami. Saturday was the first explosion in one of the nuclear reactors. Monday was the second explosion in another nuclear reactor. On Monday, I also went up with the Japanese minister of defense and the head of their military to a place up near the epicenter, or the center of where the disaster area was, and they stood up, for the first time, a joint task force in Japan to take to take on the role of trying to work through all the things they had to work through. So we tried to land at the airport and could not. We tried to land at one of the air bases and barely could in a helicopter, in a helicopter. So I flew over Sendai Airport, where we couldn't land, and it was totally flooded, and it looked like when you tell your 5-year-old son to pick up his room and he shoves everything over into the corner, so there's trucks and cars and toys and giraffes and boxes over in the corner of the room and he says, “I'm good.” That is exactly what this airport looked like, except those were real cars, those were real cranes, those were real age equipment that was working on airlines, all swept away into the corner. So came back, and that night, met a guy named Rob Toth. Now we were getting a lot of people in to help, and Rob Toth had actually, he was the commander of the special ops group that was down at Kadena that we had brought up to Yakota. And he said to me, “Sir, my name is Rob Toth.” He's a colonel. And he said, “My guys have been up to Sendai, and I think we can open Sendai in about two weeks.” And I looked at Rob, and I said, “Rob, no way,” except I added a word in between “no” and “way.” And he said, “Sir, I know how you feel, like, I knew you'd feel like that, but just listen to me.” And I said, “No, that thing's not gonna be open until the summer.” And he said, “Sir, hold on. Let me tell you something.” Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm starting listening to him, I'm thinking, “OK, here's a special ops guy telling me how his experts think that they can go up and solve an enormous problem for us. They know how to do this. And I am telling him no, because I flew over it in a helicopter and it was flooded. Why don't you just ignore your opinion and say yes to a good idea?” Because all I have to do is say yes, and the worst that can happen is I'm going to be right. The best that can happen is he's going to be right and they're going to open the airport. Well, guess who was right? Not me.   Naviere Walkewicz He was right. Oh, wow.   Burt Field So, three weeks later, the first airplane, well, two weeks, a week later, the first airplane landed on it, and three weeks later, the first commercial airplane landed there.   Naviere Walkewicz Wow.   Burt Field Just say yes to good ideas.   Naviere Walkewicz 33:14 I think that's a leadership nugget right there.   Burt Field 33:16 And it's all from somebody that, you know, he had never met me before. I'm a 3-star general. He's a colonel. Took a lot of courage to tell me that, and keep persisting when I said, “Forget it,” because I was busy and didn't believe it, and I had just been there, so if you're not listening to people, you're probably not gonna make the best decisions.   Naviere Walkewicz 33:38 That's an incredible story. Thank you for sharing that.   Burt Field You bet.   Naviere Walkewicz Oh, that's fantastic. So, your career was outstanding. I mean, I think you had the opportunity to really lead and impact a lot of lives by the time you put on your third star. Had you known that was your destiny? When you graduate the Academy you want to be pilot. We knew you went into the Academy to fly.   Burt Field 34:01 To fly fighters.   Naviere Walkewicz To fly fighters.   Burt Field Actually, to fly F-15s.   Naviere Walkewicz 34:07 OK, OK, so very specific.   Burt Field 34:08 Yeah. So I ended up going to third lieutenant to Langley Air Force Base. And I kind of, I was fortunate enough, because I traded with a guy that was from California. I was going to George. He was from California. He had the Langley slot, so we switched, and I went out there because I wanted to fly in an F-15 to make sure I liked it, because it was after sophomore year, before junior year. And I knew that I wasn't all that fired up about the Air Force Academy at the time. It was not the most fun place I'd ever been. And so I wanted to ensure that this was something I really wanted to do. Fortunately, I went to a great squadron, great people. They welcomed us with open arms, and I flew three or four times, five times during that third lieutenant and just loved every second of it. Now, of course, I didn't fly the F-15, except in the back seat a couple times later on. But I was lucky enough to get an F-16 out of pilot training. So 1980, F-16, go through that RTU with those guys, and we're all learning this together and into a squadron where we're all learning this together. Cool part about the first squadron I was in is we had… there was a squadron, which means that we had 25 people in the squadron. So squadron commander, an ops officer, and 23 other folks. And when I went in there, 12 of us were lieutenants and classmates.   Naviere Walkewicz Oh, my goodness.   Burt Field And so it was really cool to go through that experience with people like that. But it's 1980, the Cold War is in full swing. We're pretty sure that we're going to be in a fight with the Soviet Union, and basically I didn't want to die in that fight. And so I figure what you need to do to not die is be the best there is. And I was went to work with a bunch of other guys that felt the same way, and so we helped each other. We competed with each other. We pulled people along. We got pulled along. And we all became really good at what we did. And it was just that drive to be really good at what was important — which was flying — that drove me, and that's what drove me to try to go to the Weapons School. That's what drove me to go back as an instructor. That's what drove me to train people to be the best that they could be, so that when we went to combat, we would all come back, because anybody can lead men and women into combat. I want people that lead them home.   Naviere Walkewicz I'm so glad that—   Burt Field Anyway, so that's what drove me. That's what drove me. You know, because I had friends that didn't come home.   Naviere Walkewicz 37:27 So part of what you've shared with us today, and I think we're really appreciative of how much you're sharing, because I think it gives us a sense of really who you are, and the family aspect with your brothers, the family aspect with your extended family at the Academy, on your teams. When did your family come into play? Because I had the opportunity to meet your wife, Lisa, and she's lovely. When did she come into your life?   Burt Field 37:54 Well, I like to tell everybody that I met her at a bachelor party, which I did. But, we were in pilot training at Willie Air Force Base in Phoenix, and somebody was getting married, and we're going to have a bachelor party, but it already required way too much planning, and somebody had to host it, and that meant somebody had to go buy stuff for it. And basically we just went down to where we went every Friday night, and that was the bachelor party. And I met her that night, and then we just started talking on the phone, and we started dating, and then we got married. And so we got married in 1981 and she's still putting up with me.   Naviere Walkewicz 38:48 Wow. She's literally been part of your life since the Academy.   Burt Field 38:53 Oh, yeah, so I married her a year and a half after I graduated, and so we have two sons, and both of those boys are in the military. My oldest son is a University of Florida grad.   Naviere Walkewicz 39:06 So he did follow the family footsteps.   Burt Field 39:09 But he's smart. He graduated with a high GPA, and anyway, he's a maintenance officer in the Air Force. And my youngest son is a C-130 pilot in the Air Force, and he's the 2008 grad from the Academy, and he's married to our daughter-in-law, Natasha. And right now, both David and Natasha fly C-130s for the Alaska Air Guard up in Anchorage in Elmendorf.   Naviere Walkewicz 39:36 That's amazing.   Burt Field So, it's the family business.   Naviere Walkewicz So, dad, you and your son?   Burt Field 39:39 Not only that, well, one of the reasons, when we bring up Lisa, when I met her, she said, we started talking, and I have short hair, because most people, have long hair. She goes, “Obviously, you're in the Air Force.” And she had told that to her roommate, and I said, “Yeah.” And she said, “Oh, my dad was in the Air Force.” And we said, “Where'd you all live, and what'd your dad do?” Well, her and my dad flew together and so stationed in the same places, sometimes at the same time. And when we went home and called our parents and said, “Hey, do you know this guy or this guy?” Without hesitation, both of them said, “Oh yeah, I know Dave.” “I know Burt,” and so they were in the other squadron. They didn't really hang out together, but they knew each other. So both my dad and my father-in-law were F-100 pilots and fighter pilots. And so Lisa is also an Air Force brat. So both of us are — we call ourselves nomads because we've never really lived anywhere longer than five years.   Naviere Walkewicz 40:44 I used to say that, and now I actually can. But can you claim anywhere longer than five years now?   Burt Field 40:52 No, getting close though. So I've been in five years, five years in a couple places, but never longer.   Naviere Walkewicz 40:58 Oh my goodness, what an incredible story.   Burt Field 41:00 Yeah. So anyway, this is one of the things we're doing in AFA now. And I think the Air Force is Air Force and Space Force are recognizing that if you want strong and resilient airmen and guardians, you need strong and resilient families behind them. And you need to have that kind of family dynamic that's supportive of what you do with your life and what the country is asking of you and your family to be all in and if we can work with the families to change that dynamic, to make sure that we're focused on building strong and resilient families, then the strong and resilient guardian and airmen will come out of that effort. So both the Air Force and the Air & Space Forces Association, that's part of what we're doing these days.   Naviere Walkewicz Before I get into the last couple of questions I want to ask you, what is the best way that anyone that's listening can learn more about the Air & Space Forces Association?   Burt Field  Well, we can go to afa.org, simple as that, and do that. That shows you how to contact us. For another thing, you can join, which is what I would like you to do, and become a member, and then you get access to all of that information. And you can find out how to do that again, on that website. But joining gives you access to that information. It gives you access to what we do. It tells you where the chapters are that are close to you, that are similar-minded people doing similar things. And we have about 120,000 members right now. We have about 230 chapters in every state except Maine, and in several foreign countries where we have airmen and guardians stationed. Those chapters can do a lot of this work, whether it's working with your local government officials, with your state officials, like your congressmen or your senators, and it arms you with the things that you can deliver these messages with. It also arms you with how can I get access to these kind of programs that help with my family, my friends' family, the people I work with, their family. Where can I direct an airman when she needs some help? Where can I put a guardian in touch with somebody that can help him get through something that he's got a problem with? So, you have a lot of resources at your disposal that can help both you and your brothers and sisters you work with   Naviere Walkewicz  That is outstanding. So I mentioned two questions. I'll start with the first and then we'll come back after a short break. The first one is, some of our listeners aspire, at some point to be a C-suite executive. What's the coolest thing that you've done, or that's happened for you since being CEO?   Burt Field  Oh, man, that's a hard question.   Naviere Walkewicz  Well, take a minute to think about that. But first we're going to take a moment and thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. The podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio, and is available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Watch or listen to all episodes of Long Blue Leadership at longblueleadership.org. So have you had a chance to think about something cool that's happened since you've been CEO?   Burt Field  I would say that the coolest thing about this job is that you get some pretty good access. Because of what we try to do in support of the Space Force and the Air Force, I've been able to spend some time with the chief, the CSO and the secretary. And you know, the vice chief, the vice CSO, chief master sergeant of the Air Force, chief master sergeant the Space Force. So that part has been really interesting to me. Next week, I'm going to something with Secretary Austin, and so that that's kind of interesting. And then we do some work up on the Hill. And so I've been able to go up there and meet a few of the members up at the Hill. The good news, though, is that I knew a lot of those guys already, so, you know, because I'm old and. But it's still good to be able to listen directly from a leader on what he or she really is trying to communicate, as opposed to get it interpreted by somebody else or through some rumor or, “Here's why their vision doesn't match up with what I know we should be doing.” So, it helps us in our mission to kind of advocate for those strong forces when you know exactly what the leadership is thinking and what they're driving at.   Naviere Walkewicz  No, that's powerful, and that's transparency that you're able to bring to the members of your organization and all of their families. So, we like to leave our listeners with kind of leadership lessons, and I wanted to go back earlier in our conversation. You said, “Remind me to tell you about a leader that's shaped one of my bullets, maybe on how not to lead.” Or something to that effect. So what are your lessons of leadership that you want our leaders to take away today from you?   Burt Field  Well, so first off, you can never stop learning. You have to learn. And whether it's leadership or anything else— when I was in Japan during that disaster, I didn't know the first thing about nuclear power plants. Virtually nothing. I knew that there's some kind of nuclear reaction. They put something in water. It made steam power to turbine. Viola, you have electricity, period. There's a chance I might not even know that. So, I found a couple books that in the three or four hours a day that I didn't have work, I read so I could learn about nuclear power plants, the effect of nuclear radiation on the human body. What we can with withstand, what makes you sick and what kills you. So you have to always learn. And that goes double for being a leader, and you can never rest on your laurels. And so, I have been fortunate to be in a lot of different leadership positions and work for a lot of great leaders, most of them military, but some of them civilian as well, like Richard Holbrooke, a completely different leadership style than most military people. In fact, when I was working for Richard, my direct report was the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, Mike Mullen. And I talked with Adm. Mullen virtually daily, and my other virtual three-times-a-week conversation was with Dave Petraeus, who was running Afghanistan at the time, because of what a Richard's job was and they always want to know what he was thinking. So, it was interesting to watch all three of those who have three distinct leadership styles and learn from take the best from all of that. It was a learning experience. But the upshot of it is, having been exposed to people like that and being able to ask them questions about leadership, why they did things, helped shape my leadership philosophy. So, one of the things that I think everybody should do is kind of define what they think leadership is and have a leadership philosophy. And so, the way I look at leadership, it's, how how do you empower people? How do you inspire people? How do you get people to get the job done? Because you can't do it yourself. You're not going to win the war, you're not going to make all the sales, you're not going to get all the gross profit, you're not going to reduce all the expenses, you're not going to fight all the fights. You're going to be part of a team if you're going to be successful. So, how do you inspire that to happen? And how do you ensure that that team that you're building has the resources that they need? And resources come in all shapes and sizes. Some of it is equipment, some of it is money, some of it is the people that are in those roles? Do they have the education, the training, the experience and access to what they need to be successful? So that's what your job is, in my opinion, as a leader. And then how you go about doing that? You need to have a list of things that you do. So I start with values. You should have a set of values. For the cadets listening, and you're going to go into the Air Force, the Space Force, and if you cross commission into something else, every one of our services has a set of values, which are your values. Now you can have more, but your values include those. But at my stage of life, I have about five, and it's integrity, which everybody knows, and most people say, “Hey, that's when you do the right thing when no one is looking.” In the last four or five years, I added a second one to that, and I call it “fortitude.” Fortitude is when you do the right thing when everybody is looking. Then excellence. You know, from Excellence in All You Do. Teamwork and service. So those are my five values. And so when I make leadership decisions, or when I look at how we're going to move forward, or how we're going to accomplish the mission, it should reflect those values in my decisions, how I act, how I from the biggest thing of creating a here's the strategy, or in objectives on what we're going to accomplish, to the smallest things, like how I conduct a meeting. So, that that's the second thing. So everything comes from that. I think you need to be really good at something. If you want to be a really good leader, you need to be really good at something. So, you got to put in the work when you're young to be really good and understand how hard it is to be really good at something. Normally, when we “grow up,” in quotes, and become leaders of large organizations, there's a whole bunch going on in that organization that you will have little or no expertise in, but you know how to recognize excellence, and you know how to recognize effort that it takes to become excellent. And so you can look for those because you've seen it in yourself. So, that's the other thing. The next one is communication. You cannot communicate enough, and you cannot communicate well enough. So I use this example all the time. I come up with a message, I craft it, I think about it, I write it down, I practice it, and then I deliver it, and it's awesome. I was perfect. Nobody could have misunderstood me. When I'm done with that, and I really think that I have hit the mark with maybe 20%. I probably got to say that again that way or differently, about another 10 or 15 times when I can barely stand to hear myself talk anymore, and I'm still not going to get everybody. So, one of the things that you have to recognize as a leader is you're probably miscommunicating. So, you have to check and recheck to make sure that the message is going out the way you think it should be heard. So, communication is really important, and probably one of the biggest things that infects an organization is somebody misperceiving what somebody else is communicating, and then they get mad, and everybody's feelings get hurt, and on it goes. And we've all seen that. I told you about the “say yes to good ideas.”   Naviere Walkewicz  That was fantastic. Burt, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you would really like to leave with our listeners today?   Burt Field  I think we pretty much covered it, and I appreciate the opportunity to come on and chat with you and watch your act, because you're very comfortable doing this, and I need to take some lessons from you.   Naviere Walkewicz  Thank you so much for that compliment. And I must just say it has been a pleasure being on Long Blue Leadershipwith you. I can't wait for our listeners to hear more about your story and the way that you will, I think, affect great change for our Air and Space Force leaders.   Burt Field  Thank you, Naviere, it's really an honor to be on here and I appreciate the opportunity to share some of the lessons that I've been able to learn throughout my career, and also what the Air & Space Forces Association brings to the table, and why our cadets and our grads and all those out there who care about strong Air Forces, strong Space Forces, a strong national security and defense in the future.   Naviere Walkewicz  Thank you so much.   KEYWORDS Air Force brat, leadership philosophy, Air Force Academy, rugby team, squadron commander, family dynamics, career progression, leadership challenges, communication importance, resilience, Space Force, education programs, family support, military service, leadership lessons       Long Blue Leadership is a production of the Long Blue Line Podcast Network and presented by the United States Air Force Academy Association of Graduates and Foundation    

Col. (Ret.) Nicole Malachowski '96 shares her insights on leadership, resilience, resurgence, perseverance, advocacy, and how she continues to serve her country, even after her military career. ----more---- A SHOW NOTE:  There are two ways to learn from Col. Malachowski's leadership journey. If you're short on time, the audio version delivers the highlights of her stories in 40 minutes. Her leadership bites, takeaways, keys to leadership and transcript are below. The video version is 1:46:00 and is well worth the investment of your time. This version includes stories and details about the Colonel's journey she hasn't shared before. Click the "Play" button in the video above and settle in for a most enlightening conversation.    SUMMARY Col. (Ret.) Nicole Malachowski '96 is a trailblazer who has broken barriers in both military aviation and advocacy. She was one of the first women to fly combat fighter aircraft, accruing more than 2,300 flight hours in six different aircraft and serving in multiple high-stakes missions, including Operations Deliberate Forge and Iraqi Freedom. But her story doesn't end there. As the first woman to fly with the U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds, a White House Fellow, and a key advisor on military and veterans' issues, Nicole's career has been defined by leadership at the highest levels. After being medically retired due to a Tick-Borne Illness, she turned her focus to advocacy, leading efforts to improve care for the wounded, ill, and injured service members through the Air Force Wounded Warrior Program. Now a passionate advocate for Tick-Borne Disease research, Nicole serves on several national committees and advisory boards, including the Department of Defense's Congressionally Directed Medical Research Program.   NICOLE'S LEADERHIP BITES "Leadership is a journey." "The runway behind you is always unusable." "Don't think you have to be perfect to be a leader." "Believe those who believe in you." "Nobody wants to lead a scripted life." "Courage, compassion, and curiosity drive me today." "It's okay to admit when you make mistakes."   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN  |  TWITTER  |  FACEBOOK   TAKEAWAYS Leadership is personal - It's about understanding what motivates and drives each individual on your team, and tailoring your approach accordingly. Believe in those who believe in you - Mentors like Mick Jaggers who supported and encouraged Nicole were pivotal in her development as a leader. Don't write yourself or others out of the script - As General Matthews told Nicole, "Nobody wants to lead a scripted life." Embrace opportunities to dream big and take risks. Radical acceptance is key - When Nicole's military career ended unexpectedly, learning to accept the situation allowed her to move forward and find new purpose. Personal values guide your path - Nicole's core values of courage, compassion and curiosity have been instrumental in navigating life's challenges and reinventing herself.   CHAPTERS 00:00  The Journey of Leadership 02:01  Colonel Malachowski's Early Life and Aspirations 06:01  Navigating the Air Force Academy 09:46  Leadership Lessons from Soaring 14:07  Overcoming Challenges in Pilot Training 17:50  Key Leadership Experiences in the Air Force 21:59  Becoming a Thunderbird Pilot 25:47  Transitioning to Civilian Life 30:02  Advocacy and New Beginnings 34:09  Personal Values and Resilience 37:54  Final Thoughts on Leadership   NICOLE'S KEYS TO LEADERSHIP SUCCESS Leadership is a journey that requires growth and learning. It's okay to admit mistakes and seek help. Resilience is key to overcoming challenges. Personal values guide decision-making and actions. Mentorship plays a crucial role in personal and professional development. Failure is often the price of entry for success. Authentic leadership is about understanding and connecting with people. The importance of representation in leadership roles. Transitioning to civilian life can be a new beginning. Embrace opportunities and seize the moment.   ABOUT NICOLE BIO Colonel Nicole Malachowski (USAF, Ret.) is a pioneering leader whose distinguished career spans combat aviation, military advocacy, and public service. As one of the first women to fly fighter jets, Nicole's journey included over 188 combat hours and multiple leadership roles, including F-15E Flight Commander, Instructor Pilot, and Flight Lead. She also made history as the first woman to fly with the USAF Thunderbirds. Throughout her career, Nicole demonstrated exceptional leadership, serving in high-level roles such as a White House Fellow and Executive Director of the ‘Joining Forces' program, where she advised the First Lady and Dr. Jill Biden on veterans' issues. After being medically retired due to a neurological Tick-Borne Illness, Nicole transitioned to a new mission: advocating for service members, veterans, and others impacted by chronic illnesses. She's a leader in the national Tick-Borne Disease community, serving on key advisory boards and government committees, and actively mentoring wounded veterans through the Air Force Wounded Warrior Program. Nicole is also a sought-after speaker, author, and consultant, sharing her experiences of overcoming adversity and breaking barriers to inspire the next generation of leaders. Her accomplishments include two master's degrees, induction into the Women in Aviation Pioneer Hall of Fame, and founding her own speaking and consulting firm. Today, Nicole continues to serve and lead, using her story to drive change and impact communities across the country.  - Adapted from Col. Malachowski's bio at nicholemalachowski.com   READ NICOLE'S FULL STORY HERE     CONNECT WITH NICOLE LINKEDIN  |  FACEBOOK  |  INSTAGRAM  |  NICOLE'S LINKTREE     ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!          ABRIDGED AUDIO TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD THE UNABRIDGED VIDEO TRANSCRIPT HERE  SPEAKERS GUEST:  Col. (Ret.) Nicole Malachowski '96  |  HOST:  Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99   SPEAKERS Naviere Walkewicz, Nicole Malachowski   Nicole Malachowski  00:11 You know, leadership is a journey. We're always put into positions that we're supposed to grow into. Don't think you have to be perfect to be a leader. It's okay to admit when you make mistakes, it's okay to ask for help, and it's okay to have failures, as long as you overcome them. And I like to remind folks at all levels of leadership, you know that the runway behind you is always unusable. All you ever have is the runway that's in front of you.   Naviere Walkewicz  00:34 My guest today is Colonel Retired Nicole Malachowski, USAFA class of '96. Her career has been nothing short of extraordinary. Colonel Malachowski is perhaps best known as the first woman to fly as a pilot with the Thunderbirds, a singular distinction that set her path to reaching even greater heights. However, what you might not know is that her journey took an unexpected turn when she faced a sudden life altering loss of her place in the Air Force. The challenges that followed were extreme and personal, but through them, Colonel malikowski demonstrated a resilience and strength that not only transformed her own life, but also empowered her to help others with their own struggles. In today's conversation, we'll dive deep into the personal and professional journey that led her to transition to civilian life, the lessons she learned from the hardships she faced along the way, and how she now advocates for others, sharing the wisdom she's gained from the tough battles she's fought and won. We'll also take a look back at her time at the academy, her experiences as a pilot and the leadership principles that have guided Colonel malikowski, she has become a powerful voice for resilience, perseverance and leadership, and I'm excited to hear her insights on all of these topics. Colonel Malachowski, may I call you Nicole?   Nicole Malachowski  02:34 Yes, please.   Naviere Walkewicz  02:34 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership, and thank you for being here.   Nicole Malachowski  02:37 Thank you for having me.   Naviere Walkewicz  02:38 It's a pleasure. It truly is. I think one of the things that's so exciting for our listeners is really getting to know you. And you know, I think there's no question about who you are in the media, I mean, all the things you've accomplished, but some things that are most special is when we just sit down and kind of get to know you behind the scenes.   Nicole Malachowski  02:53 Indeed, let's do it.   Naviere Walkewicz  02:54 So let's go back to even before the Academy. Where did you grow up? Where are you from? And what were you like as a little girl?   Nicole Malachowski  03:00 Sure, yeah. So I was actually born in central California, in a town called Santa Maria, and I was born, I consider very lucky, because I was born a woman in America, so there was a lot of opportunities, you know, afforded to me. Also very lucky to be born into a solid, you know, middle class family, you know, I was a kid who always had a roof over my head and food on the table, which makes it a lot easier, right, for you to seize opportunities and to be your best. And think it's important that we acknowledge that not everybody is born into that position. And so I was very, very lucky, I will tell you, I was definitely the loner, definitely an introvert. Always have been. A lot of people would be surprised by that, but I am a solid INFJ on the Myers Briggs, but as a young kid, just very quiet, kept to myself. I was very much a dreamer, very curious about things, so I loved to dive into books. I loved school. I was the kid that would take my lunch box, you know, out into the middle of the football field by myself and just stare up at the sky and the clouds moving by, and dream about things. I remember being in the Girl Scouts during junior high we moved down towards Southern California, where I learned about Civil Air Patrol, and then from there, in high school, we actually made a big move to Las Vegas, Nevada. I continued my time in Civil Air Patrol as a cadet, but also joined the Air Force Junior ROTC at my high school.   Naviere Walkewicz  04:16 I'm just drawn to this visual of you with your lunch box in the middle of the football field looking up at this guy. So were you dreaming about flying?   Nicole Malachowski  04:24 I was, you know, I went to an air show when I was five years old, and I remember seeing an f4 phantom fly by, and it flew by so low, and it was so loud, I had to cover my ears. And I remember, like, my chest rumbling, you know, the smell of jet fuel. And I remember thinking, man, like there's a person in there, like, I want to be, you know, that person. And I had come from a family that, you know, honored and respected military service. So both of my grandfathers were career military my father had been drafted into the army during Vietnam. So I knew that, like, you know, military service was honorable and noble and good. And when I discovered that that was a military plane. I remember as a kid putting one plus one is two. I'm like, wait, you can fly jets and serve in the military. That's what I'm going to be. And wow, that was around 1979 and that's right, there are no boundaries on things. So looking up at the sky, watching planes, and of course, in high school in particular, moving to Las Vegas, Nevada, because Nellis Air Force bases there. So, I mean, I would watch the red flag launches and watch how those jets fly. And of course, I would see the six ship of Thunderbirds flying by as a kid, thinking that was pretty cool. So to be honest, I set my sights on the Air Force Academy in elementary school.   Naviere Walkewicz  05:34 Oh, my goodness.   Nicole Malachowski  05:35 Yeah. So when I was five and decided to be a fighter pilot, you had decided, I mean, I was maniacally, maniacally focused. I did not have a backup plan. I am so lucky that things worked out because I have no idea what else I would have done, you know, with my career, but I remember in sixth grade, I wrote a letter to the Air Force Academy. They responded. The admissions office responded with a personalized letter letting me know I'm kind of young to apply now, but here's the application process. They sent me a whole bunch of Air Force Academy swag, and that was it sixth grade. I was going to the Air Force Academy, goodness, when you were actually old enough to apply. Now to the academy.   Naviere Walkewicz  06:13 Let's talk about that process. What was it like for you? Well, I mean, I think it was more exciting than anything else. I told you. I had stayed maniacally focused. I was very particular and organized about prioritizing how my application would look. So of course, I strove to have the good grades, and obviously stayed involved with the activities like Civil Air Patrol or participating in sports like running cross country and track, as well as doing, you know, community service type activities. So I was indeed focused on making sure that application looked good. I remember the thing I was probably the most nervous about were those interviews with your, you know, senators and your representatives, and wondering if I was going to be able to interview well. So I was, you know, putting my best foot forward. And I remember my senior year, it was approximately October, maybe coming up on November about this time, right? And I went to the mailbox to get the mail, and I had the application had already been in, right? Because everything was done before the fall, and I saw this giant envelope from the Air Force Academy. And I thought, No way, because it's only like October or November. And I started shaking, and I opened it right there at the mailbox. I had to go up the street. I opened it, and I feel bad because I think I littered like the envelope all over the street, but I remember opening it up, and the first line was, congratulations. You know, you've been accepted to the class of 1996 and I instantaneously just started crying and running as fast as I could back to my house.   Naviere Walkewicz  07:38 Had you been to the Academy prior to the acceptance?   Nicole Malachowski  07:41 No, never stood a foot on at all. And I remember when my parents came to drop me off for for Jacks Valley and everything basic training, when we came up over that hill, over Monument Hill, and you can see the chapel and the kind of imposing, you know, white buildings on a hill, I was like, Oh, wow, that's extraordinary. And I was really just excited. People ask, were you nervous that day? I was not, because I was just so happy that this, to me, was like the first step of the rest of my life. It was that first real step towards this goal of serving my country, you know, like people my family had, and getting to fly jets while I do it, how cool is that? I don't remember any highs or lows. I do remember I got my enjoyment becoming a cadet, you know, soaring instructor pilot.   Naviere Walkewicz  08:28 So let's talk about that. That is a, kind of a key leadership role as well.   Nicole Malachowski  08:32 Yes, that was my leadership role. So my senior year, I was the cadet soaring squadron commander. Oh, let's talk about Yes, yes. So obviously, between freshman, sophomore year, I signed up as soon as I could, you know, to take soaring, and when I discovered that you could actually apply to be a soaring instructor, and I remember that was a really like growth experience, because it's one thing to be able to fly a glider, it's another thing to be able to try to teach somebody how to do that. And I really, I I give a lot of credit to this, you know, sorry, instructor upgrade program teaching me the skills of, how do you communicate something technical? How do you communicate something hard, this idea that you need to be able to communicate it not just in one way, but two or three different ways, because each of your students is going to come at it with a different skill set or a different perspective or a different personality that responds to different type of teaching. So learning how to tailor your instruction and your care and your leadership to each individual was something I learned here, you know, as a sophomore, this idea that I would carry that on into my career as a leader and, you know, ultimately into being, you know, a fighter squadron commander. This tailored leadership actually started here, but soaring is what was my respite. Soaring is where I refilled that tank. It's one thing to be successful yourself. It's a whole different level to teach somebody else to be successful.   Naviere Walkewicz  09:55 So you knew you enjoyed Well, obviously you enjoyed the flying? And soaring, the leadership aspect, I think, was something that was new to you then. Or had you done that in Civil Air Patrol? Did you also have leadership there?   Nicole Malachowski  10:06 Yeah, I had leadership experience in Civil Air Patrol, but I think this was a different level. You know, my senior year becoming the cadet soaring squadron commander, it was really cool, because not only were you trying to take inputs from your peers and your colleagues on things we could improve or do differently, you know, valuing the other cadets opinions. But how do I translate that to leadership? How do I go now and talk to the real officers, the active duty officers in charge, and go, these are maybe resources we need, or things culturally, you know, that we need to change, and that was hard for me, you know, because I had never done that before. How do you advocate for your peers in a way that's understood, you know, by the active duty leadership. So that was really something that, again, would become important in my military career, because when you're put in a leadership role, you know, it's about, I think, advocating for the people who you are, you know, accountable for and responsible to, yes, and so how can you do that and do it in a way that it's received? Well, yes, you know, by the leadership above you,   Naviere Walkewicz  11:07 After you graduated from the Academy, you went on to pilot training.   Nicole Malachowski  11:11 I was slated to go early right after graduation, and I was a casual status Lieutenant flying gliders. Of course, went out for a jog and broke my ankle. So this would be my first kind of little, little detour. And I ended up, they offered me to go, to go to shepherd a lot later, or as soon as my ankle was healed, I could go to Columbus Air Force Base Mississippi right away. And I said, I gotta go, like, I cannot sit around and wait. I want to go to Columbus Air Force Base Mississippi. And everyone's like, what you're going to turn down, like, the chance of going to fighters to like, have to fight for it at Columbus. I like, I can't be stagnant. I need to go. So showed up at Columbus Air Force Base Mississippi, and again, really grateful for all of the flying experience that I had. I think that just those foundational procedures, you know, foundational knowledge, was vital to being a little more comfortable than other people that didn't have that experience. It was easy to be slightly ahead of the curve early on, but as I like to tell people, I fell flat on my face across the starting line my second check ride in pilot training, I failed. Now, pilot training at that time was about a year long. There were about 10 check rides, and at that time, failing one check ride, statistically, traditionally, would take you out of the running for graduating high enough to be a fighter pilot. This was devastating to me, and I remember even having fleeting moments that night of like, maybe I should just quit. Now this is, of course, the youth in me, right? I'm a 21 year old kid, and I'm just getting a little bit emotional about it, but if I can't be a fighter pilot and I just knock myself out of the running, I should quit. And I didn't call my parents because I didn't want to tell them I was too, like, embarrassed maybe, to say, like, hey, my dream that you all have supported is about to come to an end, because I messed up, and I made a really junior varsity mistake. And so I called my mentor, Sue Ross, and then she just let me talk, and she's like, are you done? And I'm done. And she goes, Well, are you going to do that again tomorrow? And I said, Sue, how am I supposed to get back in the jet tomorrow? How do I face my peers? I've been telling them I'm going to fly strike Eagles this whole time. Like this is so embarrassing. What if I fail again? What if I fail again tomorrow? And I remember, she talked me off the ledge, man, you know, and I came away. I came away with that conversation, realizing that indeed, I think I rarely believe failure is the price of entry for achieving something great, because if you have the right mindset, you come away with failures, I think a lot more committed, a lot more dedicated, a lot more focused, and I think a lot more humble, and all of those characteristics and traits are good things. You know, it worked out for me, and I did finish fourth in my class, and I had an extraordinary class. It was a time of great cultural change in the Air Force, because we were the first group of women to come through pilot training with the option of flying fighter aircraft.   Naviere Walkewicz  14:04 So talk about your time while you're in uniform. You had some key leadership positions. You were squadron commander. Can you share some of your stories with that and maybe even some high points and some lessons learned, where you as a leader felt that maybe, maybe it was a low point or a failure, but you grew from it?   Nicole Malachowski 14:20 Sure, sure. Yes. I mean, I had so many, you know, different fun assignments. You know, obviously when you're in your first fighter squadron, I got out at RAF Lake and Heath out there in England. I mean, what a rage right to be a lieutenant flying strike Eagles at 500 feet, 500 miles an hour, up Loch Ness, to live in the dream, you know, becoming in my second squadron, which was at Seymour Johnson Air Force Base, becoming a, you know, flight lead and upgrading to instructor pilot. Very nervous to go into the instructor pilot upgrade. I went in very young. In fact, when I got to that squadron, the weapons officer said, hey, I want to put you in the instructor upgrade. And I was like, no. Away like I am not ready for that. I am not good enough for that. And I was new to the squadron. There were people technically older and more experienced than me. They were in the queue, and he wanted me to jump the queue, a guy by the name of Michael Jaggers, call sign, Mick, I'm still friends with him to this day, and I remember I avoided him. I avoided him like the plague because I did not want to upgrade to instructor. And I remember saying, Mick, I just am not sure I can do this. And he looked at me, and he said, it's not your job to get through it. It's not your job to get through it alone. It's my job. It's my job to ensure you have what it takes and what you need. It's my job to teach you to be a good instructor. So your success is going to be my success. I will not let you fail. What a glorious man, what a wonderful instructor. And the lesson learned here to people is this, believe those who believe in you. Believe those who believe in you.   Naviere Walkewicz  15:52 It's true, though it really is. And those people, I think sometimes your trajectory can change or just like, accelerate, because someone gave you a little bit of courage that you just needed that little piece.   Nicole Malachowski 16:03 And to learn as I gained experience and credibility how to replicate that and how to be that person for other people, right? Because it's about turning around. It really is about lifting up other people. Your success isn't your own. It's how can you help other people achieve the best of themselves? And that's what you know Mikey and Mick did for me. And of course, the rest, you know, being history, because then I had the credentials I needed to apply to be a Thunderbird. And then from the Thunderbirds, I could become a commander, yada yada, you know, but being an instructor pilot, again, in the F 15 e how extraordinary to teach a brand new pilot or WSO, not only to fly the aircraft, to how to employ it as a weapon system and then to turn around and go to war with them. There's no bigger honor. There's nothing, I think, more humbling than that.   Naviere Walkewicz  16:49 Can you share something that maybe you learned from the perspective of how to lead better?   Nicole Malachowski 16:55 So let's be honest, when you go into a fighter squadron, things are a little bit one note, right? I mean, we all are cut from a similar cloth. We all kind of have similar personality traits. You know, you don't want your fighter pilots any other way, putting the effort into understanding what drives and motivates individuals. So learning at that age how to put your arms around everybody that you're responsible for, not just the ones that maybe are easiest to lead, or maybe the ones you're the most comfortable, you know, interacting with as a leader is, how do I figure it out? You know, there were some guys that, if I were to call them on up to the front of the room, in front of the whole squadron, to compliment them on something they did, maybe a check right they had. Or this goes for my fighter squadron command as well. You know, they would love it, right? Because it it was how they were extrinsically motivated, and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. If that's what they need, and that's what you need to do to get the best of their strengths and best of their commitment go for it. And then were others that low? If I were to bring them in front of their peers to compliment them, they would shut down and never talk to me for the rest of the you know, their assignment. And so that's where I would take the time to write a handwritten note, maybe put it on the seat of their Humvee, or put it in their helmet, you know, in the fighter squadron. And then when they'd see me walking down the hallway, we give the knowing nod that they were acknowledged for their awesome, whatever it was, and we would move on.   Naviere Walkewicz  18:13 Yes. And so what I'm hearing, in a really, kind of summarizing way, is leadership is personal.   Nicole Malachowski 18:19 Very. it's all about people and it's about authenticity and connections.   Naviere Walkewicz  18:25 So speaking about personal and authenticity, I'd be remiss if we didn't talk about your journey to the Thunderbirds.   Nicole Malachowski  18:31 I knew this was gonna come.   Naviere Walkewicz  18:32 It's here, and so you know it is. It's a different time. There was no woman Thunderbird pilot before you.   Nicole Malachowski 18:40 I grew up in Las Vegas, Nevada, so the Thunderbirds were part of the backdrop. I knew that the Thunderbirds, you know, as a kid, were special and were considered, you know, elite. And kind of going back to my personality, I love being told that, you know, you can't do things. And the truth is, people laugh at this, but the truth is, when I applied to be a Thunderbird, I did it because the way my career was going, I wasn't ready to, I wasn't on timeline to go to ide yet or to go to ACSC, but I had, like, a weird year kind of gap, and I didn't they didn't really know what to do with me. I didn't know what to do with them, and my husband was going to be PCs in the Nellis. This is, like, a true story. Wow. I know people want me to say, well, I had this big, long dream when I was Thunderbird. Also thought about it was always in the background. Is something that, you know, wasn't, was an option. And I, you know, because of a lot of people who put a lot of effort into me, I was indeed qualified, you know, to get in there and to give it a try. But it wasn't something that was like an ultimate goal. I did not know they had not had a woman Thunderbird pilot when I applied, did not even occur to me. Remember, I had never known an Air Force without women fighter pilots in it. That's right, that's and we had all achieved the age where we had acquired the hours needed, and it just lined up with the timing. And I'm like, Well, that would be kind of fun and different to do. And. So I always tell people, you know, when you get those butterflies in your stomach that says, This could be something cool, something different, that is your cue to go do it. Don't worry about what anybody else is saying. And so, you know, I was able to put that application in. And in fact, I was I put that application in, and when I went and told everyone I was going to apply, generally speaking, people were really tickled and happy and happy and supportive. But as the days went by, people started to think about it. I heard, you know, it's too hard to be a Thunderbird, you probably won't get picked. I mean, statistically, no one gets picked to do that. They've never had a woman before. Are you sure you want to do that and this and that? And I remember the day I turned my application in. This was back when you still had hard copies, and you still had to mail them, okay, 2005 took it over to the group commander's Chief of Staff, slid it across the desk. I was super nervous, because the voice in my head was like, Nicole, other people become Thunderbird pilots, not you. That was the other people become Thunderbird pilots, not you. What are you doing? Why are you risking this? But I kept thinking, what's the worst that's going to happen? I don't get picked, like most people don't get picked, and I go back to flying strike Eagles with my community, which I love, like life is good, right? Either way, it's a win, win. So as I slid that application across the desk, said, I'm applying to be a Thunderbird. Here's my application. I remember the staff looked up to me and said, you know Nicole, It's hard to be a Thunderbird. You know Nicole, you probably won't get picked. And the exact words were, you know Nicole, they've never had a woman before, and the colonel can only stratify one person in that moment. Let's, I think there's leadership lessons here, because this person was not trying to be mean, right? What was coming out was, I think the unconscious bias all of us have to check ourselves on every day at all ages. I think what was coming out were the cultural paradigms of the Air Force at that time. And I think what was coming out, you know, were other people's expectations about what I should or shouldn't be doing. And in that moment, the truth is, I grabbed my application and I took it back, I went across to the officers club and grabbed a beer like any good fighter pilot would, and I remember thinking, thank God I didn't put myself out there. Thank God Nicole, you know, now I'm a 30 year old captain, so I'm still a young person, you know. Thank God you didn't risk failure. Who are you to think you could be a Thunderbird, silly girl, right? And in that moment, the weirdest thing happened. And I tell this story on stage, sometimes the door opened to the officers club, and in walk the Wing Commander, Brigadier General Mark Matthews, for whatever reason, comes over and starts talking to me. Now, this is weird, right? I'm a captain. He's a brigadier general. I don't know why he was talking to me, you know, like walking amongst the people that day, or, you know, just making small talk. And so I'm trying to hold my own talking to him a little bit nervous. It's a little you're probably still feeling a little bit down from totally down. And in that moment, over walks my squadron commander, a wonderful man by the name of Dan Debree. His call sign was, trash. Get it? Trash, debris. Trash. Walks over, super excited, very supportive of my application. And he's like, Hey, General, did you know Nicole's applying to be a Thunderbird now? Man, I mean, you could have slowed down time. I was like, ixnay on the underbird Fae like, this is terrible. Neither of these guys knew that I had removed my application. And Dan's standing there all proud. He's my squadron commander supporting me. A great man again. And Mark Matthews looks down at me, general Matthews, and he goes, that's great. How's your application going? And I'm like, I looked at him, and here's what happened. I said, you know, sir, it's hard to be thunder, but I probably won't get picked. They haven't had a woman, so I don't want to waste anybody's time.   Naviere Walkewicz  23:11 Oh, you said, I said it.   Nicole Malachowski  23:13 I said all of it. And this is kind of an embarrassing story to tell, but I'm just this is the truth, right? This is the vulnerable truth of how this happened. And and he looked down at me, and I will never forget this. And I hope folks listening who have big dreams and gnarly goals remember this. He looked down at me and he said, Nicole, actually. He said, Fifi. My call sign, Fifi. Nobody wants to lead a scripted life. And he walked away and left me in extraordinarily uncomfortable silence. And those words nobody wants to lead a scripted life have become my life's mantra. Every time I get the knot in my stomach that says that dreams too big or that idea is too innovative, don't rock the boat, I remember what he said, because those words, like they lifted the weight of the world off my shoulders, told me it was okay to dream big. It was okay to buck the status quo. It was okay to be different. He was telling me, it's okay to risk failure in pursuit of personal professional growth, and it's not so much. I think he's telling you and me to write ourselves into the script. What he was saying was, don't ever write yourself out of the script. And as leaders and teammates, don't you ever write anybody else or their wild ideas out of the script, either. And so nobody wants to lead a scripted life. And I, I hope what you're hearing in these stories, and maybe what I'm realizing just chatting with you, is these little turning points, these pivot moments where these really important people, the mark Matthews, you know, the Mikey whiteheads, the Mick Jaggers, the Sue Rosses, the Kim Jamesons, they all come at that right moment. You got to be open to that you know, and and how important your actions and your words are to making or breaking somebody else's journals.   Naviere Walkewicz  24:48 Yes, yeah, so you took that application back.   Nicole Malachowski 24:52 Sure did. Sure did. I did not get the number one stratification from the colonel, but I did from the general. And. So that worked out for me. When I really started thinking about, I think I was putting myself back in the kid in high school with her brown bag lunch out on the football field watching the Thunderbirds fly over that can tend to see that those six jets smoked behind in red, white and blue, screaming over your high school. You know, you wanted to be a fighter pilot. Since you're a kid, I'm staring up at them, thinking, there's people up there. You know, I want to be one of those people. This idea that there would be a little kid watching me as a Thunderbird pilot, and maybe someday go, maybe I could fulfill whatever my dream is. Maybe I could join the Air Force too, a little girl going, maybe I could be a fighter pilot someday. And I think the gravity and the weight of the mission of the Thunderbirds started to really impact me, because it had indeed impacted me as a kid, and the idea that I could be a part of that. And I think the other thing was, and maybe this sounds cheesy or trite, but it's not, you know, sitting at Al UD, drinking my one beer at three in the morning after I land from my night combat mission, sitting with all these great Americans from all over the country, from every different background, and thinking, I could go tell their story, and that's what Thunderbirds get to do. You get to represent the world's greatest Air Force and tell the stories of these airmen who are out there getting the job done, those tech piece those crew chiefs, you know, the folks that are working at the tower, the folks in the food hall, our medical professionals, the cyber the whole thing, right? And all of a sudden it got really exciting to me, like I could go out there with this team, with this mission, and we could represent our friends with the honor and the dignity and the respect that they deserve. And I think those two things kind of collided together, and I started getting really excited about excited about this Thunderbird thing. Ended up back at Lake and Heath painfully excruciating waiting for the vinyls. And when we got back from Iraq, they give you the kind of three weeks of downtime. My husband was a gracious man and took me on a Cruise of the Baltic Sea. We're sitting in our cabin in Oslo Norway, and the phone in the cabin rings. The phone in your cabin, phone in my cabin rings. It's about 10 o'clock at night, but full sun outside, because it's summertime in Norway. And immediately we looked at each other, and both of our heart we've talked about this, both our hearts sank, because why does a phone call come to military people on vacation? It's not never it's never good. Yeah, and I was a flight commander at the time. So was he we immediately thought something disastrous had happened, an aircraft accident, a death, you know, a car accident. And we let it ring another time, and he's like, You need to pick it up. And I picked it up. And I said, Hello. And they go, is this Captain malikowski? I said, Yes. And they go standby for the commander of Air Combat Command. Oh my gosh. And I looked at my husband, and I was like, What is going on? Well, I knew this was the consolation call. There was, I think, I think there was five or six of us who had made it to finals. Three people were getting good position. The other were not. And it is tradition that the commander of Air Combat Command calls all six, coach is very gracious and professionally courteous. And so I thought this was my consolation call. So I'm waiting, and it feels like an eternity, and all of a sudden I hear Stevie there, and I said, Yes. He goes, Ron keys which was General. Ron Keyes, Commander, Air Combat Command. I'm a young captain. I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. And I go, sir, how are you? He goes. We have a pretty amazing Air Force that we can find you in the middle of the Oslo Norway fjord, don't we? I said, Yes, sir, we do. He goes. Well, I know you're on vacation, so I want to keep it simple. I want to offer you a job. And I said, Yes, sir. He goes. How would you like to be Thunderbird number three? And I said, I stayed as professional as I could in my voice, but I was looking at my husband gesticulating, jumping up and down like you're not gonna believe I said, Sir, I would absolutely love that. He goes, Okay, great. You're the next Thunderbird number three. Look forward to watching you fly and get back to your vacation. And he hung up the phone. You know, the Thunderbirds are, at that time, 125 people from 25 different career fields who came together to make that mission happen. Wow, never been in a squadron with that many high performing, highly motivated people in my life. I am still dear friends with my crew chief, still friends with people on the team. It is such a crucible experience. It's a one off, you know. Well, fast forward. Finish up the Thunderbirds. I get a phone call. He goes, it's Viking blurling. I'm like, How the heck did this guy that I met once get my phone he goes, Hey, when I was an Air Force officer, a young fighter pilot, I did acse as a White House fellow, and I think you should be a White House fellow. I said, Well, what's the White House Fellowship? So he explains it to me, and I'm like, there is no way I will get picked as one of 12 to 15 people across the United States, across all career fields, including civilians, to be a White House fellow. Colin Powell was a White House fellow. I am not a White House fellow. This is ridiculous. So I entertained his conversation. He says, I want you to think about I'm gonna call you back tomorrow, same time. Boom. Phone rings. Viking borling, you're applying to be a White House fellow, no, sir. I'm not. Third day ping. Phone calls. You're applying to be a White House fellow. Anyways, I applied to be a White House fellow. Went through that whole process, semi finals, regional panel interviews, and then the finals, and was selected to be a White House fellow. I got assigned outside of the White House to the US, General Services, Administration, yes, like, it was exciting. And I was like, this is where the nuts and bolts happen? Well, the GSA also runs what's called the office of the president elect. Between election and inauguration, the incoming president and their team needs to have a place to get ready, like our current incoming administration is doing. It's a physical office building where they make decisions about cabinet secretaries, or they get their intelligence briefings and all of that. Guess who got put on the presidential transition support team to be up close and personal for the peaceful transition of power between George Bush and Barack Obama? Wow. The extraordinary part about the White House Fellowship was most of the fellows were civilian, and I had been nothing but military since I was 17 years old and showed up at the Air Force Academy. So to be able to look at leadership and teamwork and professionalism from a completely different lens, to see how people from the education field or from healthcare would solve a problem was fascinating. You know, we in the military can look to solve problems a very specific way, and a lot of us are a little bit very specific in how we do it. And so to learn how to look at problems and solve things in different ways was extraordinary.   Naviere Walkewicz  31:23 So your career trajectory is just really incredible. Because you've kind of talked about how you've been put in these places based off of circumstance, but then when you get there, it's all about, how do you make the most of it, seize the opportunity and see what's available.   Nicole Malachowski  31:38 A lot of times, you know, as human beings, we go, Well, I don't have this, or I can't do this right now, or not resource this way, man, find a way. Yeah, ask yourself the right question. What is it I can do right now with what I have?   Naviere Walkewicz  31:49 Well, that makes me feel like that's a really good lead into kind of what circumstantially happened to you, unexpectedly. Yes, so you're medically retired from the Air Force. Do you want to talk about how that happened?   Nicole Malachowski  32:00 And sure, sure, you know, the the greatest honor of my career was serving as the commander of the 3/33 fighter squadron. I enjoyed that, and I remember also during that time being physically fit, mentally fit, spiritually fit. And I remember feeling ill in the summer of 2012 like I had the flu, but within three months, I started having severe neurological problems, so things like word finding, slurring my words, inability to read write, inability to type, dropping things with my right hand, dragging my right leg, getting lost, driving home, and I remember going into a grocery store and having a complete panic attack because I didn't know what a grocery store was or why I was in there so very Alzheimer's dementia like symptoms. So in fact, what was happening was my brain was becoming inflamed with an infection. So over the next four years, my symptoms would wax and wane. They would come and go, they would change in severity. Obviously, I could no longer fly. I was grounded, but they said, Hey, you can stay in the Air Force. You just can't fly. And I said, that's great, because honestly, I just want to lead airmen. Lead airmen and be a part of a team. So, you know, there's a lot of details, you know, to this story, but my symptom list was like 63 symptoms long, covering every system in my body. And so they cast the net wide, and that's where tick borne illness came into it. And at that time, I was in a wheelchair. I couldn't talk. My husband was wheeling me around, and I remember when the doctor said, we come on in. We have the diagnosis. We know what's wrong with her. The doctor says she'll never fly again. And my husband said, Well, how long until she's better? And she goes, Well, treatment is going to take at least two years. And it was in that moment, it wasn't that I wasn't going to fly again, that hurt. But when they said two years, I knew that the military was going to medically retire me, I knew it was over, and I couldn't speak or say anything, and I was just devastated. I remember my goal was to be the commandant of the Air Force Academy. That was my dream. And all that just came crashing, you know, crashing down. And in that moment, so for nine months I couldn't walk, talk, read or write. I spent another year and a half in rehab, and during that time, obviously went through my medical evaluation board, but I was medically retired, I fought to stay in and then I realized my body wasn't gonna let me and once I accepted that it was over, you know, I was able to move forward so radical acceptance was a hard thing to come by. But the day of my retirement, December 29 2017 came, I was home alone because I was bedridden and house bound for two years. Um, was very hurtful. Remains hurtful. How my Air Force career ended. I love the Air Force based on all the stories that I told, but this moment is very painful for me. It still is. And, you know, I thought, well, what are you going to do about it? You know, you can't. Change that you were bit by tick, can't change that you have a brain injury. What are you going to do? Girl, you know, the fighter pilot in you is not going to quit. And that's when I decided, well, I'm going to, you know, I got to do something. And the phone rang, and the phone rang, and it was during this time, a gal by the name of Buff Bucha, retired colonel, had been in a helicopter accident broke her neck in Afghanistan. She said, Hey, how you doing? I said, I'm not good. She goes talk to me, and I remember for two hours just vomiting everything out to this person I didn't really know very well. Well, she was calling from the Air Force Wounded Warrior program, wow, and the Wounded Warrior program swooped in to save me, and I ended up becoming a trained ambassador and a trained mentor, which I still am to this day. I'm able to help other airmen who are being discharged, but I just want to give a shout out to the Air Force wind Warrior Program, psychologically and mental health wise, I don't know that I would have recovered, and that I would have recovered to the place that I am today without them. And so I want for the active duty, listening for people in the reserve and the guard. It is for you, yeah, it is for everyone, and it is literally a life saving program.   Naviere Walkewicz  32:45 Maybe talk about what you've been doing then since.   Nicole Malachowski  36:16 Yeah, I do leadership consulting and professional speaking, but predominantly, that helps pay the bills, and I enjoy it. Predominantly, I do patient advocacy work at the national level, so I'm on several government boards. I'm on several nonprofit panels. We've tripled them, and IH funding through the state and like TicK Act and things like that. I'm currently on a National Academies of Science Committee. Can't talk about that because our report will come out in the spring. I hope everyone will read it. But Lyme disease, I went from being a fighter pilot to being an expert on ticks and Lyme disease. Who knew the path to success is always going to be non linear.   Naviere Walkewicz  36:49 Yes, you also mentioned you have children. You have twins. Do so how is it talk about, like family life in this new kind of in the way that you're working now, right? You're not in uniform anymore. You're still pushing amazing things forward. You're consulting what's it like being a mom?   Naviere Walkewicz  37:06 Man, it's harder, it is harder to raise 14 year old twins than it is to get shot at  in combat, I will tell you that. So you know, the person that's been missing in this whole time we've been talking is the most important person in my life, which is my husband, Paul. So we will be married. We just, yeah, just had our anniversary. 23 years. I met him in my first fighter squadron in the late 90s. He's an F-15E WSO. So we met flying together. And my biggest cheerleader, my biggest supporter, the greatest human being on Earth, is my husband, Paul.   Naviere Walkewicz  37:38 I want to talk about this resurgence, because I feel like that is really important for some of our listeners. When they're, you know, they're thinking about you said you got to know who you are and what's important to you. And how did you get to that clarity?   Nicole Malachowski 37:52 You really need to be able to answer the question, what is it I value and why? And I'm talking about your personal values, the ones that you're going to wake up with every day and go, these are my values. And so I'll tell you what mine are. Mine are courage and compassion and curiosity, and I developed those as I went through this deep thinking and deep reinvention, when I lost my career and compassion, courage and curiosity are what drive me today.   Naviere Walkewicz  38:18 We'll ask for Nicole's thoughts on reinvention, resilience and leadership. But before we do that, I'd like to take a moment and thank all of you for listening to long blue leadership. The podcast publishes on Tuesdays in both video and audio, and is available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Watch or listen to all episodes of Long blue leadership and subscribe at longblue leadership.org so we have had an incredible journey together, and really where we'd like to go. One final thought on leadership, if you might, leave your listeners with something about leadership, and I can say just from being in this short amount of time with you, your your 3 Cs are coming out in spades, your compassion, your curiosity and your courage. So thank you.   Nicole Malachowski  39:01 Thank you. You know leadership is a journey. We're always put into positions that we're supposed to grow into. Don't think you have to be perfect to be a leader. It's okay to admit when you make mistakes, it's okay to ask for help, and it's okay to have failures, as long as you overcome them. And I like to remind folks at all levels of leadership, you know that the runway behind you is always unusable. All you ever have is the runway that's in front of you.   Naviere Walkewicz  39:25 Well said, well said, Thank you so much for being on long blue leadership.   Nicole Malachowski  39:29 Thank you for having me. And here's a shout out to the current cadets that are working hard up on the hill, yeah, wishing them best and hoping they take it one day at a time.   Naviere Walkewicz  39:36 Absolutely. And for our listeners, I mean, I think that it's, it's it's certainly one thing to say, you know, you get to meet these incredible leaders, but my ask of you is to share this with your networks, because it's great if you felt something and you've had an impact in your life, but imagine the magnitude you can have by sharing some of the stories of our leaders like Nicole today with your networks and the change we can make together. So until next time, thanks for being on. Long blue leadership, thank you for joining us for this edition of long blue leadership. The podcast drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on all your favorite podcast apps. Send your comments and guest ideas to us at social media@usafa.org, and listen to past episodes at longblueleadership.org.   KEYWORDS leadership, resilience, resurgence, Air Force Academy, mentorship, aviation, women in military, pilot training, overcoming adversity, personal growth, fighter pilot, mentorship, leadership, Thunderbirds, women in military, self-doubt, White House Fellowship, WASP, Air Force, personal growth, diversity, WASP, Air Force, medical retirement, resilience, leadership, Lyme Disease, tick-borne illness, self-discovery, personal values, reinvention, advocacy         The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation    

In this episode of the Long Blue Leadership Podcast, Cadet First Class Andrew Cormier opens up about his inspiring journey from growing up in Massachusetts to becoming a squadron commander at the U.S. Air Force Academy. He reflects on the early influences that shaped his values, the value of community service and service before self, sharing the leadership lessons he's learned along the way.   SUMMARY Andrew also talks about launching his own podcast, designed to help fellow cadets explore their career paths and grow as leaders. Throughout the conversation, he highlights the importance of understanding diverse career opportunities, the personal growth that comes from podcasting, and the power of community engagement. With a focus on national pride and perspective, he emphasizes that true leadership is about serving others—putting the team first rather than seeking personal recognition.   5 QUOTES "It's not about you. It's not about you. It's about the team." "When you're a leader, it's your job. There shouldn't be any extra, you know, kudos given to you. Everyone has their own piece in the puzzle, and just because your face is more prominent than others does not mean that the mission is any less doable with like one piece missing or another piece missing." "I just really urge people to try to understand other people's perspectives and listen more than they talk, because those pieces for me, like I'm a Pretty staunch capitalist, but I recently bought the Communist Manifesto. I want to understand where these ideas stem from." "American ideals are amazing, and they need to be protected. And in order for me to have any say in that, I need to have skin in the game. And that's what I look at my service as is me gaining skin in the game." "It's not difficult, it's just super time consuming and kind of annoying. And so, I mean, it even like stays true to today, everything I have to do isn't necessarily difficult. I'm a management major. I don't know what the Astro or aero people are going through. I'm sure that's very difficult. But for me, it's more just like getting the reps in it, and it's very gradual." - C1C Andrew Cormier '25, October 2024   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN  |  TWITTER  |  FACEBOOK   CHAPTERS 00:00:  Introduction to Cadet Andrew Cormier 02:52:  Andrew's Early Life and Background 05:52:  Discovering the Military Path 08:46:  Community Service and Humanitarian Efforts 12:10:  Transitioning to the Air Force Academy 15:07:  Experiences in Basic Training 17:57:  Leadership and Followership at the Academy 20:47:  Becoming a Squadron Commander 24:11:  The Role of a Squadron Commander 27:12:  Starting the Podcast Journey 34:54:  Understanding Career Paths in the Air Force 39:30:  The Impact of Podcasting on Personal Growth 44:45:  Engagement and Value in the Cadet Community 52:36:  Navigating Post-Graduation Decisions 01:00:05:  The Importance of National Pride and Perspective 01:04:53:  Leadership Lessons: It's Not About You   ANDREW'S 5 KEYS TO LEADERSHIP SUCCESS Leadership is not about you, it's about the team. As a leader, your job is to represent and protect your people, not focus on personal privileges. Seek to understand different perspectives and listen more than you talk. Don't take American ideals and freedoms for granted - they need to be actively defended. Balance future planning with living in the present. Don't become overly fixated on the future at the expense of enjoying the moment. Perseverance, critical thinking, and resourcefulness are key to success. Rely on these core strengths rather than trying to control everything. Diverse experiences and mentorship are invaluable. Seek out advice from those who have walked the path you want to follow, and be open to learning from a variety of backgrounds.   ABOUT ANDREW BIO C1C Andrew D. Cormier is a cadet at the U.S. Air Force Academy (USAFA) in Colorado Springs, CO. Cadet Cormier is the commander of squadron 15, the Mighty War Eagles. C1C Cormier is originally from Fitchburg, MA and entered the Air Force Academy in June of 2021 following his lifelong passion to “serve others.” Throughout his cadet career he has held the squadron position of Diversity & Inclusion NCO and Spark Innovator, but on an unofficial level has hosted the “For the Zoomies” podcast interviewing over 75 officers to better understand their experiences in the Air Force for the sake of helping cadets make career decisions, as well as been a widely trusted barber in the dormitories. C1C Cormier plans to complete his Bachelor of Science in Business Management in May 2025. Immediately following graduation he intends to commission as a Second Leiutenant in the U.S. Air Force and become an Acquisitions Officer. - Copy and Image Credit: Andrew Cormier    CONNECT WITH ANDREW LINKEDIN  |  INSTAGRAM  |  TWITTER   RECOMMENDED LISTENING:  FOR THE ZOOMIES PODCAST with C1C Andrew Cormier   LISTEN NOW!     ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!          FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS GUEST:  C1C Andrew Cormier  |  HOST:  Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99   Naviere Walkewicz 00:00 My guest today is Cadet 1st Class Andrew Cormier, USAFA Class of '25. Andrew stands out among the finest examples of those who have taken the service-before-self aspect of their work as developing leaders very seriously. In Andrew's case, he helps and supports his fellow cadets by guiding them to their optimal career paths through the guests and their experiences on his podcast. This is a new approach for Long Blue Leadership, and one we think you'll appreciate, because we're looking at leadership through the eyes of one who both follows and leads, thriving in both spaces. We'll talk with Andrew about his life before and during his time at the Academy. We'll ask where he's headed when he graduates. We'll discuss the role he's taken on as a podcaster, and we'll ask how he's successfully led and followed. We'll end with Andrew's takeaways and leadership tips. Andrew, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad you're here.   Andrew Cormier Thanks for having me, Naviere.   Naviere Walkewicz Absolutely. So it's got to be a little bit different being on the other side of the podcast mic.   Andrew Cormier Yeah, no, it's definitely interesting to be here. I've done a few before, but they weren't in person, and this was like the highest quality, so I have a little bit of imposter syndrome, not gonna lie.   Naviere Walkewicz Oh goodness. Well, we'll learn from each other, right? I think that's the best. We can always be learning; we can always get better. So, I'm excited to take in some of the things that you do as well. Feel really good about that. Well, one of the things we like to do on Long Blue Leadership is we rewind the clock a little bit. Some clocks are further rewound back than others, and so I'm really excited to kind of get to know. Where were you before the Academy? Where'd you grow up? What was life like?   Andrew Cormier OK, I'm not as chronologically advanced, like, relative to maybe my experience in high school. I grew up in Fitchburg, Massachusetts, lot of pride coming from the East Coast. My parents, my dad, he worked as a general contractor, so I spent a lot of summers laying tile, you know, doing framing houses, all that sort of stuff, just like, you know, a general laborer. Honestly, just like sweeping up a lot of dust and mess, as he actually did all the hard work. And then I went to a tech school, Montachusett Regional Vocational Technical High School. That's a mouthful, but I went there mostly because my brother went there. I wasn't a huge decision maker back then, like I consider myself somewhat now. And I studied machine technology, and working on metal pieces like running lathes and mill machines and electronic discharge machines, just to — I didn't really know what preparing for the future was like, but that was the kind of path I was on. But then, I grew up playing hockey and lacrosse, and I realized that I had an opportunity with that somewhat, and I was traveling the East Coast playing lacrosse. Think it was after a tournament in Ashton, Pennsylvania, me and my dad got a phone call from Coach Wilson, the Air Force Academy lacrosse coach, saying, “Hey, we saw you play this weekend. We'd love to have you out.” And so that's like a really quick rundown of where I come from, but I guess moral of the story: I really appreciate the background, the kind of blue-collar experiences that I've had when it comes to growing up in Massachusetts.   Naviere Walkewicz No, that's awesome. And I think it's, it's great know that you're not afraid to get your hands dirty, to work hard and grit. I mean, that kind of is also synonymous with hockey. I feel like you work hard, you dig. So let's talk about that a little bit more. Older brother then. So you're one of two? Any other siblings?   Andrew Cormier Yeah, just me and my brother.   Naviere Walkewicz OK, and so what was it like growing up with an older brother? You know, were you always the one that he got to test things on? Or what did that look like?   Andrew Cormier No, my brother — he's about three and a half years older than me, so we never really were in school at the same time. He was always, four grades ahead. So we went to all the same schools, but he was leaving just as soon as I was arriving. But no, he was a great big brother. I was more of like the wild child, me and my mom will sometimes look at the family videos, and it's me kind of just being this goofball, like not appreciating things, like complaining, whining, all this stuff while Zach's over here, trying to help me. Like, I remember this video: We lived in this house where the driveway was very steep, and so we would just like drive our little like plastic carts down the driveway right, and my brother was over here, like, trying to push me up the hill, and I'm over here, like yelling at him—   Naviere Walkewicz Go faster!   Andrew Cormier No, I was like, “Stop, Zach, stop!” Like, looking back, I'm like, wow, I was just a goofball. He's over here trying to help me, right? But no, he was. He was a great big brother. And to be honest, growing up, I consider myself to have, like, a really spongy brain in terms of, I want to learn things through other people's experiences so that I don't make the same mistakes myself. And so when I would see my brother do all these things, he got into lacrosse. I got into lacrosse. He went to Monty Tech. I saw what cool opportunities there were with that. I went there. And so it was kind of like he tested the waters for me, and then I ended up, following suit. And it's, it's kind of changed since then, I've come to a little bit more of like an independent person. But, you know, growing up, you kind of always look up to your big brother.   Naviere Walkewicz Yes, I love that. And so, aside from being recognized through your lacrosse sport, how? How did the military come into play? Was that something always on the radar? Is it somewhere in your family, maybe not with your dad or your mom, but elsewhere?   Andrew Cormier Yeah, um, my family wasn't big on the military, not that — you know, we grew up pretty disciplined, but the on my mom's side, her parents are immigrants from Canada. There's not a whole bunch of military history there. But on my dad's side, my Pepe, his dad, was drafted for the Korean War, and so he did communications for four years, and then he got out. But beyond that, I mean, he passed when I was young, so I never really got to really — he never really had the opportunity to instill lessons into a sentient person, more or less. So, yeah, I felt more or less like I was doing this for the first time, like it wasn't a huge military thing. But in high school again, my brother, it was an open house. I was in seventh or eighth grade. I get brought to the Marine Corps Junior ROTC program at my high school. And I was really like, what's going on here?   Naviere Walkewicz In an excited way, or?   Andrew Cormier Kind of. It was more like, intrigued, not super— my first question after he gave his little pitch was, “So do I have to serve?” And he was like, “No, no, no.” And I was kind of relieved. So that's kind of my initial impression. I go to school, I'm not enrolled initially, and to be honest, I don't remember what urged me to enroll in the program, but I ended up enrolling. I loved it.   Naviere Walkewicz What year was that?   Andrew Cormier It was freshman year, so I did all three years, because I transferred to a different school my senior year, but I did it all three years, and I loved it, mostly because of the service aspect of it. We did a lot of — it wasn't like, I feel like ROTC, especially at the Academy, because, you know, if other cadets see this, they're probably gonna flame me for it. But this has, it has this perception of collecting badges and ribbons and, cadet general, all that sort of stuff. And that was so far from what my program was all about, we were doing a bunch of community service. Like, you know, in Fitchburg, we would go near the Boys & Girls Club and pick up trash in the area. Obviously, picking up the trash wasn't fun, but just like, going out and do something with your buddies on the weekend, that was fun. Countless Salvation Army collections, like we'd sit outside the grocery store—   Naviere Walkewicz Ring the bell?   Andrew Cormier Yeah, collect money. All those sorts of things were what really pushed me on. And then I think the culminating thing that really pushed me to want to pursue this was, my sophomore year, we did a humanitarian trip after Hurricane Harvey hit in Texas. So we went down to Wharton, raised a whole bunch of money, took 50 of the about 100 cadet corps, and we posted up in this Boys & Girls Club gymnasium, all on cots. We'd march to breakfast at Wharton Community College, and then we'd spend the day going back and forth in teams, in our vans, either bringing cabinetry to houses, flooring to houses, drywall to houses. And then we'd install it, because it was all flooded up to pretty much the knee from Hurricane Harvey. And so that week that we spent down there was super impactful to me, especially at the end. There was a bunch of little projects, but centrally, there was a big project, because this house was basically destroyed. And coming from a tech school, we have a bunch of plumbers, carpenters, cabinet makers, all the all these different trades coming together, and they ended up doing something really good for this one family. And so they left for a week, and then they were able to reintroduce them on that Friday, and it was super heartwarming. I don't know how I feel saying that word, because I emasculated myself, but, that sort of feeling. It was like, “Wow, we really, like, helped a family,” and it was impactful to me. And so, you know, now at the Academy, I'm like, I haven't had time to do community service, and I feel bad about it, but that's kind of what really got me interested in it.   Naviere Walkewicz Well, I think it's fascinating how, you know, your ability — you worked with your dad, so I think you brought some of those skills, and then again through school. But I think a heart of service is kind of the theme that we're hearing early on in this conversation. What I think we're going to even talk about more. So you were discovered through lacrosse, the little — you went on a, probably an intercollegiate, tour of the Academy. And were you like, “Yes, this is it,” or was it still like a “Well…”   Andrew Cormier Yeah, so backtrack a little bit. My senior year I ended up transferring to Northfield Mount Hermon. It's a college preparatory school, so I was boarding there. And I say that because when I came here, I was really interested in old schools that have a lot of heritage, a lot of tradition. My school, it was like, I — all my fellow “Hoggers” are going to be disappointed that I forget the year that it was founded by Dwight L. Moody, but it's a very old school. Lots of traditions, a lot of fun stuff to like, you know, students are looking forward to and seeing what a lot of the freshmen had to do in my trip here, despite it being a relatively younger school compared to West Point and Annapolis, I was like, “That's cool.” Like, I like the hierarchy structure of it. I really like seeing it. The chapel was out, so I got to see, ya know, it was one of those sort of situations where I was really looking for a school that had fit the criteria of getting able to, you know, serve tradition. And I really wanted to play college lacrosse and at that time it looked like it was gonna fit those descriptions.   Naviere Walkewicz Yeah, so the Academy it was, and what was day 1 like for you?   Andrew Cormier 12:41 A few disclaimers: I want to say that, one, I didn't end up making lacrosse team, so I don't want to be, you know, claiming I made it and I didn't. And two, so…   Naviere Walkewicz …so let's pause there a second. So you were initially recruited, but you got and you had to do the whole application and get in on your own, because you ended up not being a recruited athlete?   Andrew Cormier Yes, and I got denied my first time.   Naviere Walkewicz OK, let's talk about that.   Andrew Cormier Yeah, so I, I applied Well, trade school, education, trade one week, education, other week. So you can see I might be slightly deficient in in certain academic realms. And so that's why I transferred to college Preparatory School, because I wanted to, you know, go all in on my academics, hopefully, you know, get me in. It worked in terms of really opening my perspective, but didn't work in terms of getting me into the Academy the first try, which I was initially a little bummed about, but now looking back on it, I'm like, that was, you know, the Falcon Foundation, shout out to him, or shout out to them, and Gen. Lorenz, everyone. We actually had the dinner last week that was super fun. But I didn't get in. But I got offered Falcon Foundation Scholarship, and I ended up going to again, picking schools off of tradition, Marion Military Institute, which is the oldest one on the list of options. And yeah, I went there for a year during COVID, and that's where I guess the gap is because I'm a Class — I was Class of 2020 in high school, graduating Class of '25, there's that gap. I hope I answered your question.   Naviere Walkewicz That's fantastic, actually. And, and I think for those listeners who may not be aware of the Falcon Foundation. You know, we have a number of different college preparatory, military preparatory programs that are affiliated with our Academy. And I think it's a wonderful testament to — you apply for the Air Force Academy. You don't apply for a preparatory school, but the Academy recognizes when we have areas that are maybe just under the cut line, but someone we're really interested in, and how do we get them there? And so I think it's fantastic that you were able to get a Falcon Foundation Scholarship. And I don't call that a gap. I call that just an extra year of preparatory So, yeah, it's wonderful.   Andrew Cormier I was definitely prepared more.   Naviere Walkewicz Yes, OK, so you came in on day 1 feeling pretty good then, because, you know, where others might have been the whole basic training experience, just kind of, you know, knock their socks off. You're like, “All right, we know this military thing.” Is that true?   Andrew Cormier Yeah. And, I mean, I guess in terms of, I know how to make a bed, I know how to wear a uniform, that was less daunting. I'm a management major. I don't know what the Astro or Aero people are going through. I'm sure that's very—   Naviere Walkewicz I'm glad you put that caveat in there. OK.   Andrew Cormier Yes, I'm a management major. All the assignments are more or less easy, but it's more just like getting the reps in and it's very gradual. So I don't want this to make it sound like the Academy is easy by any means, because what's difficult about it is the task-saturation they have you doing. It's like stuffing 10 pounds of sand in a 5-pound bag, that sort of deal. That's where it's difficult, at least for me. And so coming into it with hearing those sort of perceptions, that's how I went into it feeling, and I was kind of right. I mean, basic training wasn't super rigorous.   Naviere Walkewicz You were fit.   Andrew Cormier I was, you know, I was able to memorize things.   Naviere Walkewicz Good, your mind is a sponge, so that was probably helpful.   Andrew Cormier Yeah, I had all my— my bed making skills were already down pat, so all the really tactical things were taken care of, and I understood that I was going to get yelled at no matter what. And coming into it with that, I was just like, OK, this is a game of attrition, and I just can't quit.   Naviere Walkewicz I love that. So how did you translate what you felt was maybe not as difficult and you saw others struggling? Have there been times where you've had to step up and take on a role of being more of a support or a leader amongst your peers?   Andrew Cormier Yes, of course. I mean, in my baby squad, we had — I wasn't the only, not only preppy, but also they call them prepsters. I was technically a prepster because I didn't go to the “P” but, you know, I was still did a prep year, and we had a prior enlisted person, and so the four or five of us had already seen all this stuff before. And when it came to studying the Contrails, showing people how to, you know, make their closet and all those sort of things. And also when it came to just being away from home, I had been away from home since I was about 17, and I got there when I was 19 or 20. And so acclimating to living away from home is kind of difficult challenge. And so just being there for the people that are like, “I miss home, I miss my mom, I miss my dad, I miss my home food” and all this sort of stuff. You know, there, there aren't a lot of opportunities for chit chat during basic training, at least towards the beginning, but towards the end, I'm like, you know, “You got this, let's power through.”   Naviere Walkewicz And yeah, I love that. So let's talk about, while you've been a cadet, maybe some of the ways that you've been a follower and some of the ways that you've been a leader, aside from the one you just kind of shared, what have been some ones that have stood out to you as you're continuing to develop your leadership skills?     Andrew Cormier 18:48 OK, following — very much freshman year you're following. Trying to think of some concrete examples. I think credibility, like understanding where you fall on the credibility hierarchy is somewhat a dictator, an indicator of where you should be in terms of leading and following, and I understood that relative to the rest of my baby squaddies, I might have been slightly above the average in terms of credibility, but in terms of the entire squadron, lowest of the low.   Naviere Walkewicz Tell me why. Let's talk about that. What do you mean?   Andrew Cormier Well, I mean, I remember freshman year when we were getting quizzed on our shoulder board rankings. It's a ground-cloud horizon, and freshmen just have the cloud because their heads in the clouds. They're, very unfamiliar with this place. And you know, it's true, not only do you not know what it's like to have a bunch of GRs in a week as a freshman, just coming out of basic training, but you also don't know what it's like to understand an organization. I didn't understand what a reporting structure like — you know, I didn't understand a lot of these intricacies, and I tried my best to have some humility and understanding that and just keeping my ears open for it. And with that credibility spectrum I was confident in the sense that I could be self-sufficient NS take care of what I needed to take care of on the academic front, the knowledge, the K-test front, athletic front. But when it came to, oh wow, I've never been in a 100-person organization before and at the bottom of it, this is a time to take some notes. I think that's definitely a theme's that's definitely followed through with the podcast especially. I kind of avoided giving a concrete example of the followership.   Naviere Walkewicz 25:00 You had mentioned you thought it was a whole bunch of KPP, so what is the role really like as a squadron commander?   Andrew Cormier 25:07 It's different than I thought it would be. You know, I think there's this perception of leadership at the Academy, amongst cadets, that leadership is land-naving through the athletic fields and like Jacks Valley. You know what I mean? Like, leadership is these super tactical things, like, how can you be as close to George Washington as possible? But, one, there's not many opportunities. And if you're doing that, opportunities for that sort of stuff, and if you're doing that stuff, you're probably not delegating as you should. And so I think the biggest takeaway that I've gotten from this position is like representation of your people and protection of them.   Naviere Walkewicz Talk about that.   Andrew Cormier 25:57 So even this past week — I don't want it to be tainted that he's a very good friend of mine, because I would have done this for anybody in my squadron. But he received some paperwork from somebody else, his supervisor. He works a group job, so the paperwork was coming from a wing person, and it was outlining how he had failed to do this and all this stuff, and then at the end, it had said something about his like, — I'm super cool. People mess up all the time. I mess up all the time. That's understandable. Mistakes are gonna happen. But the last paragraph rubbed me the wrong way, because it said something about his character, that, knowing him, well, I didn't really — it seemed very out of character. And so, you know, I've had cadet squadron commanders in the past that are just like, you know, hey, I'm going to trust everything that that the wing person said, issue all of the demerits, tours, paperwork that comes with the recommendation and leave it at that, but my attempt to really take this position seriously is to get the perspective of my friend, see what his opinion on it was like. Maybe let me gather a little bit more evidence. And upon doing that, the statement that was at the bottom of it was completely not apparent in the evidence. And this really raised an alarm for me, because if I weren't to do that, not only was it sent to me, but it was sent to permanent party. I'm like, this is, you know, kind of throwing some dirt on his reputation, and it's not true. And so what happened was I immediately texted the guy. It was cool. I worked with him over the summer on wing staff, and I went to his room, and I was like, “Hey, so, you know, just trying to get some understanding. I'm not here to press you about this, but I want to understand what's actually going on here. This is what is outlined in the Form 10. This is the evidence that I gathered from my friend, and they don't really seem to be congruent.” And then he starts giving his case, and I don't disagree with any of the things where he actually, you know, failed to do things. But then, when it came to the part about his character, he was like, “Yeah, so that's the issue. I did that out of anger of somebody else.” Because I remember seeing the group chat and the message was sent, and then my friend responded super politely, super respectfully, and then his co-worker was like, you know, kind of escalatory, aggressive. And then, as a result, both of them got negative paperwork. And I believe that only the negative character should have been put on his co-worker, not on my friend. And he admitted to that, and he was like, “I'm willing to walk that back, because it doesn't give an accurate representation of his character.” And so, you know, my friend was super appreciative, because, you know, we ended up having a permanent party conversation the next day, and we cleared everything up, and they were like, “Thank you for investigating this a little bit more. Because if you didn't, we probably would have just ran with the guy's recommendation and maybe thought a little bit less of him.” So, um, I guess when it comes to protecting my people, maybe that's now thinking back on it, maybe that's a first sergeant job to handle, like the discipline stuff, but maybe that it was my friend that took a little bit more ownership of it, and wanted to make sure it's correct. But that's more or less an example of protecting my people, or representing my people, I guess they kind of go hand in hand on. I guess, another note of protecting—   Naviere Walkewicz Or even what you've learned since being in the role of squadron.   Andrew Cormier 30:04 Yeah.   Naviere Walkewicz Peer leadership is hard, wouldn't you agree?   Andrew Cormier 30:04 It is very difficult. And I think maybe part of the reason why I was selected was because I have a relatively good reputation in squadron to be friendly. Last semester I was D&C. So, you know, I'm outside of the formation, making corrections –   Naviere Walkewicz What is D&C?   Andrew Cormier D&C: drilling and ceremonies. So I'm outside of the squadron making corrections as people are marching. And it's not an easy thing to do when it's somebody older than you as well. And I'm over here cracking jokes with them and making sure that I do it to everyone, not just certain people. I dig in a little bit more to my friends who I know can accept it, and then it might ease the tension of all the other people who might be not doing it right. And then I go talk to them, like, “Hey, chest up a little bit,” or, like, “'Fix your dress.” But yeah, I think that that was a big piece of me getting picked for it, because I have to uphold a standard, especially in today's Cadet Wing. I don't know if the listeners are privy to all the change going on in the Cadet Wing, but there's a much larger emphasis on standards. “Hey, I'm low key doing you a favor by correcting you so that you don't end up in a three-star's office.” And so as much as it's made cadet life as a whole, somewhat more difficult, it's made my job as a squadron commander, supposed to enforce these standards, a little bit easier, because they know that I'm not like the highest person that's like enforcing this. This isn't me power tripping. This is me trying to look out for people. That perception makes a big difference.   Naviere Walkewicz No, that's really helpful, and probably more than you thought we were going to be talking about, because you were probably thought we spending a lot of time talking about For the Zoomies, and I'd like to get there. So let's, let's talk about that right now. So, when did it start and why?   Andrew Cormier The reason changed over time, but I started it. I came out of CST, combat survival training, after my freshman-year summer. So it was approximately July timeframe. And I've always been an avid podcast listener. Loved hearing conversations, new ideas, learning, you know, while I just drive. I might think I'm a little bit more productive, like multitasking. And so I've always wanted to start one, but I wanted to be meaningful, not just me and my friends just yapping in some microphones. So what I did was, after freshman year, all of the fever dream of it was over. I could start projecting into the future, not just living in the present. I started projecting into the future, and I'm like, “Oh crap, I have an active-duty service commitment. I actually have to think about that decision for a little bit.” And I was scared because I didn't want to be a pilot. We had Career Night, which is one night every year, and then Ops, which was a whole year out. So I'm just like, I'm not the type to just sit back and let things happen to me. And so to address this issue, I went ahead and was like, you know, Col. Rutter. I went asked him, “Hey, is this feasible? What sort of problems you think I could run into? You know, like, PA, whatever?” And he was like, “Dude, go for it.” And so I started off just interviewing AOCs around base, getting — he was my first episode, talking about A-10s, even though I didn't want to be a pilot, you know, even though I don't want to do that, I'd like to learn more about it. Same thing, maintenance, acquisitions — being a management major was something I was very exposed to in the classroom, and then, you know, it just kind of like expanded. I covered a decent number of AFSCs, and then I started getting to the point where I had this better picture of not only what job I wanted, but also a holistic understanding of how these jobs and career fields intertwined, and it gave me a better picture of what the Air Force does as a whole. And so that was like a big learning piece for it, but it transitioned to, “OK, I don't want to just interview people and like, “Oh, this is what a maintenance officer does the entire time.” People get out after five years. And the reputation right now is that if you want to be a president, go to the Naval Academy. If you want to be a CEO, go to West Point. If you want to be a FedEx pilot, go to the Air Force Academy. And I heard that joke plenty of times, and as funny as it is, I'll admit it, I laughed at it, but like, I don't want that to be the perception of this place, because we produce much, much better leaders than just, pilots, not to poo-poo pilots, but like, CEO versus pilot, like it's, a different game. And so my idea was, how can I highlight that being an airline pilot, a cargo pilot, whatever it is, is not the only avenue to take after commissioning, what else can we do? And that's where I started picking up more perspectives, both on leadership, “What is it like to be a consultant?” I did, you know, definitely lean more towards things that I was interested in, but like equity research, private equity — all these different things, like podcasts, specifically about getting an MBA out of a service academy, all these sort of, like, super tangible things that, because I'm the target audience, I felt would, felt like it would resonate with the cadet wing, and so that was kind of like the motivation moving forward. And you know, it's had so many opportunities for me, like last week. Shout out Ted Robertson behind me, invited me to interview Dr. Ravi Chaudhary, and I'm getting all these super cool opportunities to expand my network and learn what it's like to do things at a more strategic level. And so it's been this really interesting, evolving project over the past two years, and I'll even share this little story. So this summer, I worked a cadet summer research program at Lockheed Martin in D.C. And one of the last days that we were there, they had this quarterly face to face, because it's a global, the corporate strategy arm is a global thing. So they have a like an in person thing every year — or every quarter. And how they started it was, we're gonna talk about just things that you've picked up, whether it's personal life, listen to a podcast, read a book that you wanna share with people. And so I was at the end of this big circle, and I was like, “What am I gonna say?” You know, like, all these people are spouting off this knowledge and wisdom, and I'm sitting here as this intern, trying to come up with something that would be useful to them, and then I actually started thinking. I was like, you know, this podcast changed my perspective on a lot of things, and I get a lot of praise for it, but as much as, like, you know, I acknowledge it was a good thing to help other people expand my own knowledge base of this, it had some downfalls and drawbacks as well. Namely, being I became super fixated on the future, and I was unable to really focus on the present, living in the moment like, get a little dark here, I was a little existential at certain points of time, because I was just constantly thinking future, and I'm like, What am I doing like right now? And it became like a frustrating thing for me, because not only was I interacting with a lot of older people, it was kind of making me feel unrelatable to my peers, and that was bothersome to me, because, you know, I never want to be perceived as this person who's a sycophant, like, just brown-noser and all that sort of stuff. And so it was definitely some drawbacks. And then I, like, brings me to the point of the reason why I started this was that fear. I started because I was scared of not knowing what the future was going to entail. It was this fear of uncertainty. And, you know, reflecting upon that I came into the Academy this, like this confident person and like, where'd that go? Am I not confident? Like the two things that I think if anybody can have will be successful in any realm of life, is perseverance and critical thinking. Those two things, in my opinion, will carry you anywhere. And I felt like I had those things, but I was just discounting them so heavily, to the point that I was like, I need to figure all this stuff out, or else I'm gonna be screwed, when in reality,why am I not just relying on these two things that I know, that I have, you know, maybe you can work in resourcefulness, but I have these two things. Why am I discounting those? And I think that was the big reflection point that I was able to share with the people in this room at this, you know — face to face. And I was like, you know, I had this really big pendulum swing to trying to control everything. And I really don't perceive myself to be a control freak. As, like, a micromanager. I think if you talk to anybody in the squad, they, they won't perceive me that way. But when it comes to my own future, like I want to — in the past — I'm trying to correct it. I'm still not perfect, but I was trying to correct for this. And I'm like, No, that's it's not right. That's not a long term, feasible thing I'm gonna end up burning out, never really living in the moment, never really enjoying things. And so, like that was a big learning lesson from this whole idea.   Naviere Walkewicz And you learned that when you're sitting in that circle, or did you learn that — was that when it kind of culminated into how you articulated it? Or had you already felt that way?   Andrew Cormier 41:40 The cadet experience, like I said, is very task-saturating, and so I never feel like I have a time to reflect during the semester. This was about July, like this past July, and so although I was working, it was like four day weeks, so I had a decent amount of time to reflect. I always treat my Christmas breaks and my summer breaks as points to reflect, and because that's the only time I have, like, the bandwidth to. And like that whole time period, like I was just so locked in on — like all this work I have my my notion planner and checking boxes, Life is checking boxes. And it took me, you know, shout out to Cylas Reilly, 100% because as much as we're different — like, he's much more, like, happy go lucky, like super high energy guy — being with him on the C-SERP at Lockheed, he, allowed me to put my hair down a little bit like, just take a little road trip, talk about stuff, not be so analytical about everything. And so I guess that's that point where — I had about month, because this was at the end of it. I was leaving the next day. And so we had about a month to talk about things. I had a month to reflect on it, and then this was something that was — like it had been the first time I'd ever put it to words, I'll say that. It wasn't the first time I was trying to process it, but it was the first time that I was putting it into words.   Naviere Walkewicz How did you feel after you said that?   Andrew Cormier Uh, slightly cathartic. I don't know it is. It's weird because as soon as you put something to words, then you can, like, I feel like understanding is like, if you can talk, if you can think about it, that's like, the lowest level of understanding. If you can talk about it, that's slightly higher. But then writing about it is the highest level. And so, like, I always keep a journal, and I've been trying to write about it, to put it into more concise words. But that was a big — it was kind of like a breakthrough of like, I'm having a higher understanding of this lesson that seems to be apparent in life.   Naviere Walkewicz Wow. And I think that's something that our listeners can — and those watching too — can really gravitate toward, because, you know, sometimes we get so caught up in the churn of the “what's next?” and the “do this” and “get here.” And I think an important lesson you just shared with us, and I love that you've learned it earlier on, is the key of reflection and really assessing “where am I?” and “how do I feel about that?” and “what's next?”. So For the Zoomies. Let's talk about that. First off, I mean, you've gotten a lot of praise for it, because they're fantastic, your episodes. What has the cadet wing — how have they embraced it?   Andrew Cormier 44:31 You know, I wish Spotify had a little bit better of the data. I can't attach an IP number to a listen. But to be honest, I was never looking for listens. But then as soon as I started growing, I'm, you know, a little bit more tied to it. It's kind of like seeing a lot of likes and stuff on Instagram or whatever.   Naviere Walkewicz Affirmations are wonderful.   Andrew Cormier 44:53 Yeah, but so I think it was received somewhat well. And I always try to add value to the cadet wing. Some of them I admit are a little bit selfish. They're mostly for me, like I really want to talk to this person. But then I had an episode with the Office of Labor and Economic Analysis about a change in how cadets were going to get matched their AFSCs, and I was thankful that — shout-out to Maj. Ian McDonald. He's the person who reached out for me. He is a representative from OLEA who was like, “Hey, I heard about your podcast. This might be a good episode idea.” And I'm like, “You're a genius. You're a genius.” And so we sat down — him and Col. Joffrion in the economic department. They were—.   Naviere Walkewicz Justin Joffrion?   Andrew Cormier Yes, classmate, my upper-classmate. He's '98.   Andrew Cormier OK, OK. And so we sat down and we walked through how cadets — because the initial, or I guess the legacy system, was OPA, your class, rank, your major, and then your preference. Those were the three things that would get put into this algorithm, this black box, and then you'd be spit out your AFSC. Now, and I think it's still in pilot. Maybe it's confirmed for a Class of '26 but at least for the '24/'25 those were, you know, where it was being tested, and it was much more like an open job market, where you actually able to submit a narrative about things that you projects that you've worked on, capstones, research that you've done, and it was super impactful. Because one, I really appreciate the new system, to be honest, because the military can be very — I've studied a lot of Austrian economics in my time, so I'm very of the mind, like, free markets, don't tell people what to do, like, they'll pick what's right for them. And so seeing this moving more towards a market structure, I was like, this is a good idea. But being able to share that with the Cadet Wing — that's the highest-listen episode, because I think it really, like, drives value. People don't want to, they want to know how the system works so that they can game the system. And one of my questions on the episode was like, “So, are you worried about people gaming the system? Because they know how it works?” And they're like, “Do it. We want you to get the right job.” And so, yeah, it's been super impactful to me that cadets valued the product that I put out there. And they would value it because it was useful to them. I wouldn't want it to be artificially inflated just for the sake of that affirmation, even though it feels good, but, yeah, it felt good to be able to contribute in that way.   Naviere Walkewicz I love that. So that's the most listened from the cadet perspective, what was been the most rewarding from the podcast seat, from your side of it?   Andrew Cormier Like, most rewarding in terms of—   Naviere Walkewicz Either a guest episode or just the experience of podcasts, okay, I'll let you take it where you'd like.   Andrew Cormier I have a lot of people pose this sort of question to me a lot about, like, who's your favorite episode? Like, who's your favorite guest? And, you know, they, like, kind of hint at, like, all, like, Gen. Clark, like, or anyone with stars was probably a really cool episode. And, you know, it is an honor and a privilege to be able to get an hour on their calendar because they're super busy. They're strategic thinkers. They don't usually have a whole bunch of time on their hands, but they were able to open up their calendar to me, and so it's an honor, and usually I do come away with a lot of practical knowledge from those things. I shouldn't say that those are always the most enjoyable. One of my favorites thus far has been with Julian Gluck, Cosmo. Because, you know, we sit down, same thing with Sam Eckholm, we sit down and we just — it is a little bit of yap-sesh, so maybe it's more for the people who are looking for entertainment than advice or information on the Air Force as a whole. But we just sit down and talk about cadet life. And I really enjoy the evolution of the Academy experience, year over year. And Sam Eckholm, being a relatively recent grad. Cosmo being — I think he's 2010, so it's like, you know, in these sort of 10-year chunks, and then even…   Naviere Walkewicz Is he ‘08 or ‘10?   Andrew Cormier He might be — in that timeframe. Yeah. And even Dr. Chaudhary, which was super fun, because for the first half of the episode, we were just talking about spirit missions. And so usually, with these senior leaders, it's more of “What's the strategic landscape?” “What can cadets take away from this?” But with him, it was like, you know, talking about chickens on the freaking football field and like, going up on Flat Iron. And so I always enjoy those episodes from a personal perspective of really having institutional pride, is seeing the evolution of this place and seeing the ebbs and flows of it. And it's like telling that — it makes me understand that the difficulty of this place and like the perception that the cadet wing is getting softer. It's not something that's been this ever since '59 it's been this gradual decline, persistently. It's a thing that comes and goes and honestly, we're more-or-less on an uptrend than not, relative to the adversaries that we're facing. So I guess that's a big piece of it is, as much as I really enjoy learning and getting different people's perspectives on, “Oh, what base should I choose given these goals?” Or, you know, “What does a maintenance officer do at Red Flag?”   Naviere Walkewicz Yes, oh, my goodness. Well, I think one of the things that you've highlighted in and this journey of yours is, yes, it's about impact. Yes, it's about, you know, taking care of one another. But there's also this intrinsic piece which is really about relationships, and that's what I hear when you talked about the ones that you really enjoyed most. I think it was that human connection. That's that thread that connects us.   Andrew Cormier Yeah, I think you hit the hammer on that thing. You know what I'm trying to say.   Naviere Walkewicz Yes, no, I'm with you. So, Andrew, what's next for you? Upon graduation, we know you're not going to be a pilot. What are you going to be doing?   Andrew Cormier 52:29 I dropped 63 Alpha Acquisition Manager.   Naviere Walkewicz And that's what you wanted?   Andrew Cormier Yes, first pick.   Naviere Walkewicz So you gamed the system properly?   Andrew Cormier Yes. I gamed it properly, yes. And I think the narrative piece of it, I included how I went to Lockheed, and they're very — the project I was working on, was very acquisition-oriented, so I think I really put a lot of emphasis on, “Give me this.”   Naviere Walkewicz “I really, really want this.” I'm so happy for you.   Andrew Cormier Thank you. Thank you. But so we just put in base preferences. That was a pretty long conversation with a lot of people that I had to have.   Naviere Walkewicz Including Chloe. Is she…?   Andrew Cormier Yeah, no, she was the main stakeholder outside of me. We probably had three different conversations about it. I'd talk to her first, go get some other input from grads. Talk to her again, more input. Talk to her, and then finally, input. And so, you know, I talked to my sponsor, Maj. Bryce Luken. And the reason I talked to a lot of people that I wanted to be somewhat like, like, I envision myself as them somewhat in the future. You know, they're reservists, entrepreneurial, very like — not sit back 9 to 5, but how are we gonna, you know, improve national security and have our own spin on things, have autonomy over, you know, what we do and our time and so, like, those are the criteria over, like, who I was talking to, so I had a conversation with him. He's like, “You should go to L.A.” I'm like, “Air Force people aren't going to L.A. That's Space Force…” Like, Boston. And so he's like, “Dude, you should go to Boston, MIT, Lincoln Lab.”   Naviere Walkewicz Hopefully you talked to Cosmo as well.   Andrew Cormier I actually haven't, but yeah, I should let him know I ended up putting in Hanscom. But you know Col. Misha, I saw him at the Falcon Foundation dinner, Forrest Underwood. Yes, they were giving me the same like urging me go to Boston. You're a young professional who wants to get his hands dirty. Don't go to, you know, Langley, where — you know you can still be industrious down there, but you'll be under-resourced compared to if you went to Boston.   Naviere Walkewicz See, and that's great feedback that you know maybe others aren't thinking about in their decisions. So I think that's a really great process in the way you approached it. People that are in the ways of where you want to go. And also the important people in your life that you want to make sure stay important.   Andrew Cormier Yeah. I mean, at the end of every single episode on the podcast, I always ask for advice for cadets looking to pursue a similar path. Emphasis on “pursue a similar path.” I get a lot of advice, and not that I think anyone is, you know, basing their advice off of maybe an incomplete conclusion. But when you're getting advice, you really have to understand, what are what is their envisioning or like, how are they envisioning your outcome, and is their envision outcome the same as like, what you want? And so I think getting to your point, I really look — I got the advice. Same thing. This past Sunday, I called up Chase Lane, who went to Langley first. And I think that's why he really stuck out to me. But he urged me to go to Boston. And also, kind of like, walked me through. He's like, you know, Chloe works at Space Foundation. She really wants to be in the space world. And so, she's like, “Let's go to Patrick. Right near Cape Canaveral, Cocoa Beach.” Super cool location, you know. I mean, prayers out to the people in Florida right now. I hope that they're all right. But like, you know, that'd be a good spot. Uh, relative, you know, Boston, wet snow every single day. But you know, he kind of like, Chase, walked me through how I should approach a conversation like this. And so, you know, the other night when I sat down with Chloe, as much as you know, I want to value her perspective and wanting to value all inputs, understand where those inputs come from, and find a middle point, a middle ground for everybody, because the team won't last if we're only valuing certain inputs. And you know, it does take a little bit of convincing, but also more of like, open your eyes to what the opportunity really is. Are you making assumptions about this? Am I making assumptions about this? Let's clear those up. And so that's a sort of conversation that we ended up having. And, you know, she's on board with Boston now and so.   Naviere Walkewicz I think that's wonderful. I think communication is key. Luckily for you, you're big on communication, And no, I think that's wonderful for our listeners, even. You know, yes, there's probably times when you have to make a decision, there's a lead decision maker, maybe in in a partnership or in a relationship, but when you take in all of those perspectives, like you said, I think the end of the day, when you're coming to that decision, you're in a place of transparency and, yeah, you kind of go for it together. So I think that's great lessons for all of our listeners. Andrew, we're going to get to some of the key thoughts that you have, and I also would love for you to share, and you have a limited to think about this, but something that is, you know, unique to you, that you would love our listeners to kind of hear or learn about you. I think that's one of the things that we've been able to pick up in Long Blue Leadership, is it's kind of neat when people just know what's relatable or what they think is really cool. So, give you a second on that. But before we do, I'd like to take a moment and thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. This podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio, and is available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Watch or listen to episodes of Long Blue Leadership at long blue leadership.org   Naviere Walkewicz 58:38 So Andrew, here we are, and we can go in either order. I think, you know, we always like to make sure our listeners kind of have a way to encapsulate the leadership lessons you want to leave them with that's close to you. But also just kind of, what's the thing you want to leave them with that's all about, Andrew?   Andrew Cormier It's weird talking about myself, to be honest, because I bet I'm always on the other side of the microphone.   Naviere Walkewicz Yes. It's much easier asking the questions.   Andrew Cormier Yes. I think one thing that I really wanted to talk about that I guess wasn't outlined in this, was the regular question of “Why'd you come?” versus “Why'd you stay?” And like I mentioned before, the service piece was why I came, but seeing how I haven't done community service really since high school, the reason why I've been staying is because American ideals are amazing, and they need to be protected. And in order for me to have any say in that, I need to have skin in the game. And that's what I look at my service as, is me gaining skin in the game. And, you know, I just, I am by no means a scholar of American history. Massachusetts Public Education did not teach me about the Alamo, unfortunately, so when I went to San Antonio for the first time, I was learning it. But what they did teach me was about our founding fathers. And, you know, being from Massachusetts, Plymouth Rock, it's where the Pilgrims landed, and what it really took for people to come across an entire ocean, fight tyranny. Like ask me, “How do you think I like my tea?”   Naviere Walkewicz How do you like your tea?   Andrew Cormier In the harbor. You know what I mean? Yeah, like, there's this sort of state and then largely national pride as — it's audacious what has transpired over the past 250 years, and I just want Americans not to take that for granted. I recently watched Civil War. Have you seen that movie? It's like, kind of a journalist's take on what would happen if, you know, states seceded. And it's like a, it's like a reminder of, “Oh, this actually happened. There was a civil war,” but like, you know, we were able to remand it, and like those reminders, tell me that this, this should not be taken for granted. And so, you know, with the kind of, like national landscape, the whole climate, I just really urge people to try to understand other people's perspectives and listen more than they talk, because those pieces for me, like I'm a pretty staunch capitalist, but I recently bought TheCommunist Manifesto. This is probably gonna get clipped or something, but I bought it, and I still haven't started reading it yet, because this semester's been crazy. But I want to understand where these people are coming from.   Naviere Walkewicz Critical thinking.   Andrew Cormier I want to understand where these ideas stem from. And I want to listen, and I want other people to listen as well. I want a more general understanding of the ideas that are guiding all of this change. What are they actually rooted in? And I think that understanding will make it much more clear as to like, a direction that we should all head in rather than, you know, all this public descent over very more or less menial things that are petty and not worth having the uproar that is ensuing. So I don't know, I guess. I don't know exactly where I was going with that, but my national and state pride gives me this urge to go, in some way, shape or form, defend these ideals and to encourage other people to look at — you know, I didn't mention a whole bunch about Northfield, Mount Herman, but I went to four schools in four years, Monty, Tech, NMH, Marion Military Institute and then here, all four different years, Massachusetts, Alabama, Colorado — in, you know, Massachusetts, my hometown, it's blue collar, NMH, super liberal. I was very international. I was in class with a Malaysian prince. I was exposed to very different perspectives there than I was when I was in Alabama. Here, there's people from all corners of the United States, and so there's this expanding perspective that allows me to be like, what we have here really shouldn't be taken for granted. I think I'm just beating a dead horse at this point, but I just really want Americans to think a little bit more and, like, listen a little bit more and understand a little bit more. I'm off my soapbox.   Naviere Walkewicz 1:04:27 I'm really glad you shared that perspective. I mean, I think it's an insight into you know, your deeper calling, and, like you said, why you stay but the threads of everything you've shared have played into that part of that of who you are at the fabric of Andrew. So, any additional leadership nuggets you want to leave with our listeners?   Andrew Cormier 1:04:53 I don't want to defer to other things that I said earlier in the conversation, but it's not about you. It's not about you. I have a couch in my room. It's like,   Naviere Walkewicz Tell me more about that.   Andrew Cormier It's a squadron commander privilege. I have my own room. I have all these like privileges. I have up top parking. It's very like ivory tower-centric. And that's like the perception of this. But it's not about me at all. It is about going and defending my friend. It is about when permanent party is directing frustration towards me, how do I not pass that frustration onto them? How do I make sure that the voices below me are heard. How do we reopen Hap's? Those are the jobs that are mine, and that involves no, like — it's my job, that I think that's the main thing. When you're a leader, it's your job. There shouldn't be any extra, you know, kudos given to you. Everyone has their own piece in the puzzle, and just because your face is more prominent than others does not mean that the mission is any less doable with one piece missing or another piece missing. So I guess it's not about you, it's about the team.   Naviere Walkewicz 1:06:23 So, For the Zoomies, just to kind of recap, where is it headed, and how can they find it, our listeners?   Andrew Cormier 1:06:33 Spotify podcasts, or Apple podcasts, I guess that's where you can find it. I'm not gonna lie; it's been on a little bit of a hiatus. I've been returning to posting, but had to give myself a break at the beginning of the semester. To be honest, I'm looking to just get to 100 episodes upon graduation and calling it a repository. I'm looking forward to some of the upcoming guests. I reached out to Gen. Mike Minihan the other day on LinkedIn, and he got back to me, and I was like, wow, so maybe he might be on the show by the time this is released. But yeah, I kind of want cadets to understand more. There's a lot of things that are advertised about pilots, but there's more out there. And I want this also be a testament of you don't need to do something in your extracurricular time that is an Academy club. Cadets can do their own thing. Yeah, I hope that answers the question.   Naviere Walkewicz That's outstanding. Is there anything that I didn't ask you that you want to share before we close out this amazing episode?   Andrew Cormier No, I think, I think I'm good. I've been talking way too long.   Naviere Walkewicz Well, it's that, well, we want you to talk because you've been our guest. But Andrew, it's been a pleasure.   Andrew Cormier It's been a really — I didn't say this in the beginning, but really, thank you for having me on. It means a lot to me that, you know, I'm the first cadet here, and I don't know what the plan is moving forward, but it means a lot to me that you saw enough in me to put me in company with all the other guests that you have on the show so far, and so I just hope you know it's pressure for me not to do anything to let you guys down.   Naviere Walkewicz Well, I think you being who you are, you've already not let us down. You're amazing. Thank you so much.     KEYWORDS Air Force Academy, leadership, cadet experience, community service, podcasting, military career, personal growth, mentorship, squadron commander, humanitarian efforts, Air Force Academy, leadership, career paths, podcasting, personal growth, cadet community, national pride, decision making, leadership lessons       The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation    

Dr. Ravi Chaudhary, Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Energy Installations and Environment, is a leader who has taught his team to, "Eat no for breakfast." He lives by a value he learned from his mother at an early age: "If you do your full duty, the rest will take care of itself."   SUMMARY In this edition of Long Blue Leadership, Dr. Chaudhary discusses his role in modernizing and reoptimizing Air Force installations to withstand kinetic, cyber, economic, and extreme weather threats. He emphasizes the importance of ruggedizing installations for the Great Power Competition. Dr. Chaudhary shares his background, including his upbringing in Minneapolis and his parents' immigrant journey, and highlights the values instilled in him. He also discusses his work on the implementation of microgrids and microreactors to enhance energy resilience at critical installations like Eielson Air Force Base.   5 QUOTES "If you do your full duty, the rest will take care of itself." - This quote from Dr. Chaudhary's mother reflects the importance of dedication and doing one's job well. "We eat no for breakfast." - This quote highlights Dr. Chaudhary's team's determination to not accept limitations and push boundaries. "Love what you do. Love our nation." - Dr. Chaudhary emphasizes the importance of passion and patriotism in leadership. "America is not about what goes on entirely in Washington. It's about neighbors. It's about what you do for your neighbors." - This quote reflects Dr. Chaudhary's belief in the power of community and service. "Get out of the way and let them in." - Dr. Chaudhary's advice on enabling the next generation of leaders to excel.   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN  |  TWITTER  |  FACEBOOK   CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction to Dr. Ravi Chaudhary and His Role 03:07 The Importance of Air Force Installations 06:08 Dr. Chaudhary's Early Life and Family Background 09:03 Lessons from Family: Service and Community 11:52 Reflections on the Air Force Academy Experience 14:54 Leadership Lessons from Cadet Days 18:01 The Role of Innovation in the Air Force 20:48 Strategic Imperatives for Future Operations 23:59 Optimism for the Future of the Air Force Academy 25:07 A Lifelong Dream: Becoming a Pilot 27:31 Launching Innovations: The GPS Program 28:36 Inspiring the Next Generation of Pilots 30:14 Adapting to Modern Challenges in Aviation 32:40 Navigating Change: The Evolution of Standards 34:57 Learning from Failure: A Personal Journey 35:42 The Role of the Assistant Secretary 38:55 Preparing for Great Power Competition 41:09 Innovative Energy Solutions for the Future 44:58 Leadership Lessons and Final Thoughts   5 KEYS TO LEADERSHIP Embrace failures as opportunities for growth. Dr. Chaudhary shared how his failures, like failing a check ride, ultimately helped him grow as a leader. Keep moving forward, even in the face of adversity. Dr. Chaudhary emphasized the importance of keeping your "legs moving" and not giving up when faced with challenges. Leverage the bonds formed with your team. Dr. Chaudhary highlighted how the bonds he formed with his classmates at the Academy carried over into his missions, demonstrating the power of camaraderie. Empower and enable the next generation. Dr. Chaudhary expressed optimism about the capabilities of the current cadets and emphasized the need to get out of their way and let them excel. Maintain a service-oriented, patriotic mindset. Dr. Chaudhary's passion for serving his country and community was evident throughout the interview, underscoring the importance of this mindset in effective leadership.   ABOUT DR. CHAUDHARY '93 BIO Dr. Ravi I. Chaudhary is the Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Energy, Installations, and Environment, Department of the Air Force, the Pentagon, Arlington, Virginia. Dr. Chaudhary is responsible for the formulation, review and execution of plans, policies, programs, and budgets to meet Air Force energy, installations, environment, safety, and occupational health objectives. Dr. Chaudhary most recently served as the acting Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Energy. Prior to this role, he served as the Director of Advanced Programs and Innovation, Office of Commercial Space Transportation, at the Federal Aviation Administration. He provided technical leadership and oversight for the commercial space industry, to include research and development activities to support Department of Transportation and White House National Space Council initiatives. Prior to this role, he served as Executive Director, Regions and Center Operations, at the FAA. In this role, he was responsible for leadership, integration and execution of aviation operations in nine regions nationwide. Dr. Chaudhary served as second in command to the Deputy Assistant Administrator and was responsible for providing Department of Transportation and FAA-wide services in the areas of operations, safety, policy, congressional outreach and emergency readiness for the National Aerospace System. Dr. Chaudhary commissioned in the Air Force in 1993 upon graduation from the United States Air Force Academy. He completed 21 years of service in a variety of command, flying, engineering and senior staff assignments in the Air Force. As a C-17 pilot, he conducted global flight operations, including numerous combat missions in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as a ground deployment as Director of the Personnel Recovery Center, Multi-National Corps, Iraq. As a flight test engineer, he was responsible for flight certification of military avionics and hardware for Air Force modernization programs supporting flight safety and mishap prevention. Earlier in his career, he supported space launch operations for the Global Positioning System and led third stage and flight safety activities to ensure full-operational capability of the first GPS constellation. As a systems engineer, he supported NASA's International Space Station protection activities to ensure the safety of NASA Astronauts. Dr. Chaudhary is a DoD Level III Acquisition Officer and has published numerous articles in future strategy, aircraft design, business transformation and space operations.  - Bio Copy Credit to AF.MIL   CONNECT WITH DR. CHAUDHARY LINKEDIN  |   INSTAGRAM  |  TWITTER     ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!          FULL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Guest, The Honorable Dr. Ravi I. Chaudhary '93  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99   Naviere Walkewicz 00:00 My guest today is the assistant secretary of the Air Force for energy installations and environment, the Honorable Dr. Ravi Chaudhary USAFA, Class of '93. Against the backdrop of Great Power Competition, Dr. Chaudhry leads the modernization and reoptimization of the Air Force to ruggedize our installations across the globe against what he describes as kinetic threats, as well as non-kinetic cyber, economic and extreme weather threats. He has served as acting deputy assistant secretary of the Navy for energy; the director of advanced programs and innovation, Office of Commercial Space Transportation at the Federal Aviation Administration; and he has led in the commercial space industry research and development in the support of the Department of Transportation and the White House, National Space Council. We'll talk with Dr. Chaudhry about his life before, during and after the Academy. We'll discuss his role, modernizing and re-optimizing initiatives and strategies for the Air Force. We'll touch on leading through new and changing threats and making decisions with climate in mind, and we'll discuss Dr. Chaudhary's work with the secretary of the Air Force and leadership at the base, command and warfighter levels. Finally, we'll ask Dr. Chaudhary to share advice for developing and advanced leaders. Dr. Chaudhary, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad to have you.   Dr. Chaudhary 01:18 Navier, thank you so much. Thank you for that way too kind of an introduction, and I only have one regret. On this weekend, did you have to mention that I was in the Navy for a little while? You just about blew me away. I know you've got some white clear liquid here. I'm just about ready to find out what the clear liquid is.   Naviere Walkewicz Cheers.   Dr. Chaudhary 01:40 Off we go, and we'll let our audience speculate, and depending on how it goes, we'll critique ourselves. Just an honor to be here, and congrats to you on your career of service in the Air Force.   Naviere Walkewicz Thank you so much. This is truly a pleasure. And I think what we love about Long Blue Leadership is it's really about our listeners getting to know you. And we have so many different listeners that are really excited. So let's start with the hat. I've noticed we've got a hat on right here. “Air Force Installations: Best in the World.” Let's talk about it.   Dr. Chaudhary Yeah, let's talk about that. Because we do have the best installations in the world. Our installations are power projection platforms. Every Air Force installation has a mission that begins and terminates with it. If you go all the way back in our history, Gen. Hap Arnold had this to say about our installations: “Air bases are the determining factor in air operations.” Think about that. Think about why we need to make sure that our installations are ready to go, and why we invest in them as an Air Force. It's because you can't get the jets out of town unless they have a good runway that works, unless they are hardened and ready to absorb the types of blows that have come to us in the past. And I'm telling you right now that we've got to be ready for this future, in a decade of consequence in Great Power Competition. We've got to focus on ruggedizing and ensuring that our installations are as survivable as they ever have been.   Naviere Walkewicz Absolutely. Well, I can say that that is certainly true, having been at bases where we've seen some challenges, it does halt and sometimes stop operations. So yeah, you're right. Yeah. So it's incredible the work you're doing, and we're going to talk about that today. But before we get there, can we rewind the clock a little bit?   Dr. Chaudhary Please don't rewind it too far, but I have a feeling you will.   Naviere Walkewicz Just a little bit. Just enough to kind of get to know who Ravi was as a young boy. What were you like growing up? Tell us about your family and where you grew up.   Dr. Chaudhary That's cool. So, I was born and raised in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I grew up there all my life. My parents came from India in 1960s and they always dreamed to do the unusual, it was the American Dream that brought them to this country. And they had kids, you know, and growing up as a South Asian American, you know, people in community would be like, “Hey, you know, why are you going to join the military? Why are you going to, you know, once you just be a doctor or engineer or lawyer or something like that?” Kind of fit the stereotype. But I always thought about it this way: If my parents would give up everything they wanted in their life, their language, their culture, everything to pursue their dreams, wouldn't they want that for their children as well? And so off I went to the Air Force Academy, and the values that my parents instilled in me rang true just about every single day. In fact, when I grow up, my mom would always tell me this. She'd say, “You know, if you do your full duty, the rest will take care of itself.”   Naviere Walkewicz That sounds very familiar to me.   Dr. Chaudhary And she would say, in the Sanskrit word for that — and my faith tradition is Hinduism — the Sanskrit word for that is “dharm.” If you follow your dharm, everything will take care of itself. And lo and behold, I'm getting choked up a little bit, because when I showed up and opened that Contrails and saw that quote, I knew that Mom and Dad had prepared me, had prepared me for the challenges that would come, not just the Academy, but everything from 9/11 to deploying to Iraq to raising a family and making sure they have everything they need to prosper. So, all that brought me to an institution that honestly brought out the flavor and gave me in the same opportunity that this country gave my father. So, it's just been a pinch-me career, and it's just an honor to be here with you today and with the entire AOG team talking about this.   Naviere Walkewicz 05:36 That's amazing. I mean, I, thinking about what you just said, that your parents came and they pursued a dream. What was that like in your household? What did that look like?   Dr. Chaudhary 05:45 Here's what it looked like. My dad — he actually came to this country with about $165, $80 of which went to his tuition. He was at University of Missouri, and then he eventually went to University of Minnesota. The rest he used to get a house and fill the fridge. And so, when he was looking for an opportunity to serve, he wanted to be in the U.S. Department of Agriculture and serve as a fed and so he didn't get that chance. So, what he did, he literally drove, put me and my brother and my mom in a car and drove to Washington. When he drove to Washington, he dropped us off at the Lincoln Memorial and walked up the stairs of the Capitol. Two senators from Minnesota, one was walking out, Sen. Walter Mondale. He said hello to him. He didn't know him from Adam. And then he went to the office of Hubert Humphrey and he sat down with him, and he told his story to Hubert Humphrey and Hubert Humphrey said, “This is what America is all about.” And he was kind enough to give my dad a shot in Minneapolis. And he spent his entire career, 25 years, as a federal inspector in the U.S. Department of Agriculture.   Naviere Walkewicz My goodness.   Dr. Chaudhary It's an incredible story. But you know what? It all came together about a year and a half ago when I was confirmed and during my swearing, and it was honored to have Sec. Kendall swear me in, but to have my dad walk up the front steps of the Pentagon with my mom and I. We go up the stairs, and I said, “Dad, would you turn around for a second?” And he turned around. I said, “You know, you can see the Lincoln Memorial and you can see the Capitol.” And I said, “Look what you've done in one generation.” That is the embodiment of the American dream. And as he was kind of — I'm getting choked up — he wiped the tears from his eyes. He realized that that that what this country has given to us is something that we've got to always think about giving back and giving back, and that's really what my career has always been about, giving back to the country that has given my family everything.   Naviere Walkewicz 07:59 That is amazing. Wow. I mean, I'm almost without words, because I can see what your dad has instilled in you, made possible, but instilled in you as a servant leader as well. I'm just… that's pretty impressive. So, tell me about your mom, because it sounds like she also instilled some pretty incredible traits in you and some beliefs in how to treat people. What did that look like in, her leadership in your life?   Dr. Chaudhary 08:26 What can I say about my mom? She's a pillar of the community back in Minneapolis. She runs a nonprofit called Seva. In Hindi, seva means service, to serve, serve your fellow citizens, serve your nation. And again, I told you about her, her enduring quote, “If you do your full duty, the rest will take care of itself.” So, in that nonprofit, she is actually bringing cultural-specific services, health services, to the Asian American community. One thing she did during Covid was incredible. She pulled together a meal team, and she served somewhere around 20,000 seniors. And it wasn't just Asian Americans, anybody in the Minneapolis community that was struggling, that couldn't get food, that was having a tough time. And then, as you know, after the George Floyd tragedy occurred, the town, the city went through a tough time, and there was an area right around one of the police stations where the riots were going on and everybody was fleeing when. When the community was fleeing, she was mobilizing her team to go in. They were going in and they were rescuing people from shelters to get them to a safe place. And two days later, she brought a team into the community that was still smoldering and set up meal stations to just give people sandwiches, bread, whatever — to just make everybody feel good and move forward, and that's what America is about. Sometimes we get so wrapped up in the times and differences, but we realize that America is more than just Washington. America is about neighbors and neighbors caring for each other. So, where did I learn that? I learned that from my mom, but the Air Force Academy brought it out, and I applied that every single day, whether it was a mission launching GPSs, doing engineering — tough engineering problems, or flying missions into the CENTCOM AOR, where we had to bring crews to bear to execute incredible missions. And so, reflecting on that — boy, you're really tearing me up today…   Naviere Walkewicz No, not at all…   Dr. Chaudhary …because you're bringing this all out of my heart, and it's just an honor to be here and humbling to tell the story. But I know that there are thousands and thousands of grads out there that have just as inspiring stories, and that's why I love to come to AOG. That's why I like to spend time with our cadets today, which was just as incredible. I went down to Jacks Valley and got to see the assault course as well. Luckily, I didn't have too many flashbacks.   Naviere Walkewicz I was going to say, did you have your rubber ducky with you?   Dr. Chaudhary Yeah, I did not. They didn't push me through it, but the demo was incredible. And I know our secretary was equally impressed with the cadets and the caliber of students that are here, the caliber of our cadets, and how I'm so optimistic for the future of our Air Force and Space Force.   Naviere Walkewicz 11:33 Absolutely. And I can share, based off of what you shared about your mom and dad, there's no reason why you're [not] able to take on a job that almost seems impossible with the scope and breadth of what you're responsible for. So, I can't wait to get into that as well. Can we go to when you're at the Academy? I want to know more about you as a cadet, because as interesting as you are as an adult, what were you like as a cadet?   Dr. Chaudhary 11:54 There's a lot that I really shouldn't disclose. Okay, so we've got to be really, really careful. So, me and my classmates, we have this thing called “mutually assured destruction.” You know stories about me, I know stories about you. Just leave it there. But let me tell you, the Academy was just the honor of a lifetime. But you know what — going through it with your classmates is something. I was just having lunch with our cadets today. I was a grad of Delta Tau Deuce, and to spend time with them and tell them stories, and hear about their stories, about what Deuce is like these days, was absolutely just, I was just blown away with it. But yep, I was primarily in Deuce. I had the just pleasure of beaing a squadron commander and having peers that really care for each other, peers that I keep in touch with. To this very day, I have them up on text.   Naviere Walkewicz Oh, wow.   Dr. Chaudhary And we share with each other. We have challenges. We go through it together, but I will tell you one story about why your cadet story matters, and you don't realize it until the balloon goes up. When I graduated from pilot training, I graduated essentially the day after 9/11 and I was actually in the planning room when 9/11 happened, and within a few weeks — I did my check ride that day — within a few weeks, I was at Charleston Air Force Base, and my squadron commander had me look out the window and said, “We don't have time to mission qual you. We don't have enough pilots. We're going to marry you up with a crew to go down range.” And you know what he did? He married me up with two people, one who was my classmate from the Class of 1993,   Naviere Walkewicz Really?   Dr. Chaudhary Two was a member of my squadron from Deuce, and he was a new aircraft commander. We had an experienced first pilot, and I didn't know nothing from nothing. I was a brand-new co-pilot. And so, getting ready for that, for those missions, a new environment for me, required something that our squadron commander knew that if I put three Academy graduates together, the bond that they've had in their years was going to carry them through toughest conditions, in unknown conditions. And sure enough, we clicked and did well. But to anybody who's a current cadet and listening in and wondering, “Hey, is this bonding — is what's going on now, the time that we have together here in the Academy going to amount to anything?” I'm here to tell you, it does and through my own life experiences, and quite honestly, in a number of missions, we fly working it together as a team. The bonds we create as cadets carry over for decades.   Naviere Walkewicz 14:54 So maybe you can share some of those bonding moments at the Academy. You said you were a squadron commander. What were some of the lessons you learned from a leadership aspect, in leading your peers, but also while still trying to bond with them?   Dr. Chaudhary 15:08 Yeah, when you look back, sometimes you're separated by age and rank, right? You got age and you got rank and your peer groups kind of set you that way. At the Academy, it's completely different because your peers, as a senior, you're all peers and colleagues, and to take on a leadership role is what I would say is the toughest challenge of all. To lead a team of peers and colleagues can be challenging. And there's challenges that really kind of come with everything like that, but to me, you can't do it without collaboration, without consulting folks and being inclusive in how you give people a voice. Now the jury is out — I'm not going to judge whether I was successful or not. Probably not, you know? But I will say we did one thing: It was gonna be we were gonna be the athletic squadron of the year. We were a beast. In fact, we decided that we were gonna go for one thing: We were the athletic squadron. And so, we did.   Naviere Walkewicz That's impressive!   Dr. Chaudhary We kicked some serious buttt. So, back in the day, you do what was called a sweep. So, if you swept all your sports and intramurals that day, you would, the next day, you would get Mitch's Mountains. And so, the lore of Mitch's Mountains was incredible. And today, interestingly enough, we had what I would call Mitch's Mountain version 2.0 — probably half the calories and twice the caffeine. I don't know what it is. But I actually whipped out a picture of an old Mitch's Mountain. And I show them, they're like, it was really funny, because to see the look in their eyes and to see an original Mitch's Mountain, it was like, oh, you know they looked at and they're like, “That's what a Mitch's…” And they're like, “There's an Oreo cookie on top!” I'm like, for us, “Ok, this is a nice 2.0” and everything, like you gotta go back to…   Naviere Walkewicz 17:05 So, how many of those did you get? If you were actually the athletic squadron, you must have swept multiple days.   Dr. Chaudhary 17:12 You see the love handles on me right now? That was the one challenge. Because, you know, [you‘ve] got to stay in shape. But we kicked some serious butt; we would sweep all the time. I was actually on the water polo team…   Naviere Walkewicz 17:25 …we share that. I did not enjoy it. It sounds like you might.   Dr. Chaudhary 17:30 I don't know. So, I'm a decent swimmer. I'm pretty good. Grew up in Minnesota, tons of lakes. I could say I'm a decent swimmer, but I can tell you I am not a water polo player. So, what they used me for in water polo…   Naviere Walkewicz Were you the buouy?   Dr. Chaudhary I was the anti-buoy, because whoever was the good player, they'd say, “Go and put your arms over that one and get them underwater,” so that our fellow water polo teammate could go in and score. And so, probably one of my most beloved plaques in my life is my water polo plaque because we were Wing champs.   Naviere Walkewicz Oh, my goodness!   Dr. Chaudhary We ran the tables and were Wing champs, and that plaque still sits on my desk. It's one of my most beloved things. You know, my wife, she's getting ready to toss it. I'm like, “No, no, not that!”   Naviere Walkewicz Not the water polo plaque!   Dr. Chaudhary She's like, “Oh, what about this graduation plaque from the Academy?” You can get rid of that, but don't get rid of my water polo plaque. That is beloved. So anyways, I was asking cadets today, “What's Deuce like?” I'm like, “So are you guys a training squadron?”   Naviere Walkewicz What are they like?   Dr. Chaudhary They're like, “We're the standards squadron.” And I'm like, “Wow, that's impressive.” I'm like, “What about Mach One? Are they the training?” So, they're like, “Mach One. Nah, not really.” They're like, “We're No. 1 in SAMIs. We're No. 1 is…? I'm like, “Oh, wow, they still have SAMIs and stuff like that.” Have fun. Yeah, that was a haze for me. Triple threats were always a haze, yes, so I never liked that, because well…   Naviere Walkewicz 18:49 Maybe the Deuce team does now.   Dr. Chaudhary 18:53 Mach One, they loved it. I've got friends from Mach One. They're gonna kill me, but yeah, they love it. They're all into it. Cleaning their rooms and Deuce would be on the corner going, “Would Mach One please go to bed?” So anyway, sorry. But yeah, it was an interesting time, you know, talking with some of our cadets.   Naviere Walkewicz 19:26 I love these stories. So, were you this happy as a cadet?   Dr. Chaudhary 19:31 No, I was not a happy cadet. I was a surviving kid. I was trying to get through the next day. And honestly, to me, it was always a wonder to be there, and I was always grateful for being there to serve. I was in a tough major, aero major, and honestly, it didn't come right away to me. And so I was not one of those sterling cadets that just rocks the house and everything. I was on the Comm List for a good portion of the time, but the academics took some time for me. I spent a lot of time in the aero lab. And, you know, the cool thing is, …  I did projects and drag reduction, and we we tested these winglets on the tips of wings, and we did flow visualization. I had this professor. His name was Tom Yechout, and I was talking to some aero majors today. They're like, “You know, Tom Yechout?” And I'm like…   Naviere Walkewicz He's still there.   Dr. Chaudhary “He teaches controls here” I go, “Well, he taught me flight controls as well.” But he supervised me, and one time, I think, maybe at the last reunion, he brought me to the cabinet, and he opened up the cabinet and he showed me the hardware that we used for our project.   Naviere Walkewicz 20:39 From your class?   Dr. Chaudhary 20:43 Yeah.   Naviere Walkewicz That's amazing!   Dr. Chaudhary And here's why I'm telling you that: When in my interview with Sec. Kendall, he sat me down and he was talking about, “Hey, in your in your team, we're doing some drag reduction activities.” And he's like, “What do you know about blended wing body aircraft?” And it turns out, not only had I done some research on that, I had done a project at Staff College and to me, you know, my message to cadets out there who are working on a project who are wondering, “Hey, is this going to amount to anything? Does this matter?” I'm here to tell you that it does, because the type of work that goes on at this Academy is literally out of this world. We got folks who are working with SpaceX. I went down and that we're actually doing a project called the blended wing aircraft, which is like a big flying manta ray. It's going to reduce fuel consumption by roughly 30% to reduce fuel for fuel consumption across our Air Force and extend our range.   Naviere Walkewicz How are we going to do that?   Dr. Chaudhary Well, we're going to build a prototype in 2027. One of my sections is operational energy, and we have a team dedicated to reducing drag on aircraft, finding efficiencies. Why is this important? Well, it's because in Great Power Competition, we know that our adversaries are going to come after our logistics and fuel — our resources. And as a logistician, you know that. Our adversaries are targeting our installations, they're going to target our fuel resources. So, what's the best thing we can do? We can be as efficient as we can with our fuel and flying C-17s, is one thing you get to know real quick that if you land at an austere location, you're going to drain that fuel bladder almost instantly. And what does that mean? That means less sorties. That's less fire missions if you're flying Apache's out of there. That means less fuel for generators if you lose power. That means less ability to get your CAPs in the air, and we've got to embody that as a department and be ready for what that challenge holds for us. So getting efficient with our field, to me, isn't something that we're going to do because we're nice. We're going to do it because it's going to be an imperative. It's going to be a strategic imperative, and we've got to be ready for that. And so, we've been working hard at those things. The blended wing body aircraft is a long-term thing that it's been out there for a long time, but we've got to proof it. And so, it's really cool…   Naviere Walkewicz It's almost full-circle for you.   Dr. Chaudhary Yeah, it's incredible. And we just were at this, at the plant for Jet Zero. We did a visit there to spend some time with them and look at look at their production facility. And what do I see when I walk in the conference room? Five cadets sitting on the end of the table, learning, taking notes, interacting with the top systems engineers. And interestingly enough, one of those cadets had come and visited me and spent the summer — actually, three of them. She was part of a team of three that came and visited my organization and worked on the impacts of strategic temperature changes and how it will affect payloads for tanker aircraft. And so, they did this research, presented me this paper, and now here I am seeing them at industry being on the leading edge. And to me — let me tell you that filled me with so much optimism and excitement for the future, and most importantly, what we're producing here at the Air Force Academy, a top-notch engineering school that is regarded across the industry. So, a little turn to academics there, but big shout out to what we're doing across our academic programs. I just think we're on the right track, and we need to keep up the momentum.   Naviere Walkewicz 24:30 No, that's huge. I was actually going to ask you, how are you leveraging some of our cadets in some of the things you're doing? But it sounds like they're already doing it.   Dr. Chaudhary 24:40 Check! Done. They're rocking the house. Just, just leading the way. It's awesome.   Naviere Walkewicz 24:43 That's amazing. Yeah. So, let's talk about — and I'm really curious — so, after you graduate the Academy, did you know you always wanted to be a pilot, by the way? Did you know you wanted to fly?   Dr. Chaudhary 24:50 I can't remember a day where I wasn't drawing airplanes. And you're asking me about when I was younger. You know, “What kind of kid were you?” I was a kid who was drawing airplanes. OK, I was the kid with the airplane books. I was a kid who was checking out every single airplane book and library and learning about them and trying to understand them and wanting to know more. And so naturally, it was just — I can't think of a day where I didn't want to be an aerospace engineer, be a pilot. And you know, sometimes the ebb and flow of demand for the Air Force —there was a time of reduction in pilots for the for the Academy, and I didn't get that opportunity then and it was a bummer. But you know, if you do your full duty, the rest will take care of itself. And so, I landed at Los Angeles Air Force Base where we launched this program. I got to launch rocket programs. And you may have heard of this particular payload: It's called GPS.   Naviere Walkewicz 25:44 I might have heard of that one, yes…   Dr. Chaudhary 25:47 …and it was the first time we were doing it. And we're young lieutenants, and we're at Los Angeles Air Force Base, and I was getting the responsibility for third-stage engines and ordnance systems and some of the avionics, and my boss said, “We don't have time. We're launching rockets every single month. I need you to go out to this corporation called Thiokol, and I want you to buy that rocket.” And by the way, he said it in a way that was like, “Don't screw this up,” right?   Naviere Walkewicz The undertone was there.   Dr. Chaudhary Yeah, we've had that don't-screw-it-up moment. And so that was one of them. And so, the one thing that I remember is that our Academy demands a lot, and it demands a lot for a reason. Because leaders will be demanding a lot of brand new officers. Now the jury's out as to how well I did, but we had three we had three successful missions, and we delivered full operational capabilities for our department. And to me, I look back on that. I, believe it or not, still keep in touch with the captain who welcomed me, who brought me on the team and, in 2018, I got the incredible opportunity to let the last Delta II rocket go. And I brought my wife and my daughter with me, and that kind of brought the whole band back together. And it was cool to have kind of the old space cowboys and in the room again going, “Well, let's, let's let this rocket go for one last time.”   Naviere Walkewicz That is really cool.   Dr. Chaudhary And the best part of it was, after that rocket went and you felt the rumble — the rumble of a rocket, there's nothing like it in the world. When you feel the rumble go into your stomach — I leaned over my daughter. I go, “What do you think?” She said, “I am doing that.”   Naviere Walkewicz 27:34 I was just going to ask you, did it bleed over into your daughter?   Dr. Chaudhary 27:38 Now, she's a cadet at Georgia Tech. She just finished field training, and of course, like every good Academy graduate should do, buck the system. So, she bucked the system with her dad and said, “I'm gonna do ROTC and go to Georgia Tech. So, good luck this weekend against Navy. I'll kind of vote for you, but just want to let you know the Academy is a lot easier than Georgia Tech.” So, she and I jaw back and forth, but watching her grow has been really cool. And I got a chance to take her up and fly and get her ready for her career. She wants to be a pilot. And let me tell you, we got nothing on this next generation. They are ready for technology. They are ready for the leading edge, and we've just got to enable them. Honestly, we've got to get the hell out of the way and let them in. There's one situation, we had new avionics on the aircraft. I won't bore you with the details, but it allows you to deconflict from traffic. It's a GPS-based instrument, and I was kind of flying with her one time a few years ago, and I said, “All right, well, this is what is so, you know that little piece, you know 2,000 below you, positive means 2,000 above you. It's closing it…” She's like, “Dad, Dad, Dad, stop, stop!”   Naviere Walkewicz 28:58 She knew…   Dr. Chaudhary 29:00 She knew how to interact with that technology, and honestly, I didn't. I was learning how to interact with that technology. So, we've got to really make sure that we're blazing a path for our next generation, but at the same time, make sure that that we're not getting in their way. And I think sometimes we do that as grads. We're like, “I was like this when I was there…” You know? I was at Mitchell Hall today, and I saw the 0-96 up there and it's memorialized. And I walked by that thing…   Naviere Walkewicz 29:32 Did you scan the QR code to fill one out?   Dr. Chaudhary 29:33 Yeah, I did not do the QR code. I was like, that's too much for me. But when you look at it, you know, I thought, I'm like, that's probably where that thing ought to be right now. It's a great remembrance of why it's important, why standards are important, and then the example of how it paid off in combat conditions and saved a life was pretty important. But I'll be honest with you, we find other ways today with this next generation. I can remember flying one mission and we lost SATCOMMS with a particular field, and we were roughly maybe six hours out for Iraq in the combat zone, and we didn't know the status of the field. And one of the things you need to do is make sure the field's not under attack. So, before we did that, we're like, “Hey, how do we get our 30-minute… You know, it just wasn't happening. But you know what we're doing. We had brevity codes. And all along the line, all the C-17s that were lined up miles after miles going all the way back to Azerbaijan at 30,000 feet. We're all on. We're communicating. … We're using brevity code, so, we're not giving anything away. We're using our brevity code, and we're saying this is the status of the field. And we're relaying, we're literally relaying a half world away. That's a testament to our pilot corps, testament to duty. And so it's really in the spirit of that 0-96 there that we've adopted. So, when people say, “Oh, that tradition is going to ruin us, you know, we're going to lose standards.” I could tell you that, even though we got rid of that thing, that we're still an effective force. And I think we have to understand that a little more and as we kind of move through a period of change at USAFA — I was talking to our cadets about, “Hey, what do you think about the changes?” and, “Yeah, well, restrictions, but I understand on the importance.” I'm going to hearken back to 1991 or so, when the first Gulf War kicked off, and we were cadets when that thing kicked off, and almost instantly we moved into BDUs. We started wearing those every day. We started creating the warfighter mindset. We sealed off to make sure that we had good security. We canceled a lot of passes, and you  know what we did? We moved from a fourth-class system to a four-class system. Sound familiar? Sound familiar? That was after the war kicked off. Think about that. After the war kicked off. Our superintendent is trying to do it before the war kicks off, to make sure that we're ready, ready to fight the fight and get into it. So, I have a lot of respect for our superintendent and taking this step. I do agree that we've got to get execution right. Sometimes you get some growing pains with those things, but I think we've got to step back in the grad community and digest a little bit and get behind some of the changes that have been going on. And I was talking to some cadets last night, I go, “What do you think of this?” And they're like, “We understand it. It hurts a little bit.” Because the expectations … the environment that we're in has now changed. And you know, honestly, I'll shoot straight from the hip and say that sometimes it feels like the goal post is being moved on you, because you meet one standard, and then they move again. Yeah, you know, things get tough, but we're a resilient institution, and when you get down to the brass tacks of who we are as grads, the core of what we do and execute our mission will never go away. And we've just got to blaze a path for our next generation to be successful.   Naviere Walkewicz 33:24 Absolutely. Well, speaking of blaze a path — and I think some of our listeners want to hear sometimes, you know they have times when they fail at things in leadership. How do you grow from that? Can you share a time when you experience failure and what it looked like, to help inspire them through that.   Dr. Chaudhary 33:42 Yep. Well, worst day of my life was when I failed a check-ride. I failed a simulator check-ride in the C-17. And it hurt. It hurt bad. I had aspirations in my career. I was like, “What's this gonna mean for me?” But you know some really smart folks, and that's when you turn to people who you really go to for advice, and it's like, you know, “Ravi, there are those who have and those who will.” So honestly, I just needed a smack in the head. They're like, “Get over it, man. You know, whatever you failed check-ride. Go out there, clean that thing up and those ups and downs in a flying career occur.” I'm being 100% honest with you, my failures are stacked up right next to my successes. And so, I think, to me, the failures were the things that helped me grow, grow through things and sometimes you think, “OK, well, that failure was unfair. I got, you know, I got a raw deal out of that.” Maybe I did, maybe I didn't, but you keep moving forward. Keep taking one step after another. Now I'm not a football guy. I love football. Watch about I never played football, but I do know what running back coaches say. I think, I'm not sure, they say, “Above all, always keep your legs moving. Don't ever up when you're running. Keep your legs moving.” And so, to me, I've always taken that advice. I've given that advice to other people too, especially when they come to me with challenges.   Naviere Walkewicz 35:09 That's great advice. So maybe we can talk about your role now a little bit. And so, can you actually explain what you do? It might actually be shorter to say what you don't do, because when I look at the description, it's quite a bit. We have listeners that are parents and that maybe don't have a lot of military background and really understand. So, I think it's wonderful to share with the full community.   Dr. Chaudhary 35:31 Yeah, let me talk about the position. So, the job is one of those long titles. It's the assistant secretary for energy, installations and the environment. First thing first. I'm not a military member. I am a presidential appointee, so my job is as an appointee, a Senate-confirmed appointee. That means that you go through a hearing like you see in TV, and you get voted on, right? You get the vote. I was lucky enough to have after a period of being held, I had a bipartisan vote. And so that was pretty neat to have that. But my role specifically is to ensure that our installations are ready for the fight, for the future fight, and for current conditions. Things that I lose sleep over: Right now we're in a decade of consequence that our secretary and chief regularly say that decade of consequence includes great power competition in which China and Russia seek to shape the world order in ways that that work to their advantage, in autocratic manner, and so we've got to be ready for that, and that includes establishing an important deterrence. So, my job is to make sure installations are strong and present an approach of deterrence, and when deterrence failed, be ready to win. So, what does that mean for us? That means ensuring that our installations have power capabilities, that have strong runways, that have strong hangars, strong facilities, and included in which — families live on installations as well — to ensure we have top-notch housing. So, you'll see me reaching across all those areas, but importantly enough, making sure that those installations have the right power is critical. Our adversaries have declared their intent and have the capacity to go after our critical infrastructure, and that's the one thing that keeps me up at night: making sure that we have critical redundancies and opportunities to if somebody comes after our infrastructure tries to cut our power, we have redundant capabilities, that our control systems are cyber hardened. And you mentioned earlier, both kinetic and cyber threats. So roughly in the past two decades, as China has modernized our CENTCOM theater has really shaped an environment in which CONUS installations are under threat a little bit, but not entirely. We could be relatively confident that Grand Forks would be generally safe from ISIS from a major attack. In Great Power Competition, all of that goes out the window. Our adversaries, to include Russia and China, know how to go after critical infrastructure. They know how to employ cyber capabilities, and that's why we've got to make sure that we are pursuing cyber hardened energy control systems that protect you from those threats, and the ability to island from the local grid when we need to. So, here's one thing we're doing. I'm on a march over the next five years to bring 20 or so micro grids across our most critical installations. A micro grid — it's kind of like a power bar. You plug it in the wall and you can plug in renewable energy, you plug in wind, geo, you know, all kinds of things into that — solar — to build critical redundancies. So ultimately, building those redundancies allows you to harden your capabilities at the installation and micro-reactors give you the ability to manage and distribute power where you need it. Now we can also put in battery storage. So, battery storage allows you to — when the balloon goes up, boom, put in a firewall with the local community and get the jets out of town. Keep your employed in-place mission moving and build critical redundancies. Then once the jets are out of town, plug back in and share that power with a local community, because we know that our adversaries are going to be driving civil disruption to affect the efficiency of our installations as well, too. So that dynamic is really complex.   Naviere Walkewicz Wow, and the time is compressed.   Dr. Chaudhary And the time is compressed, so we won't have time to react as quickly. So, we've got to prepare for an all-new environment in our installations. And it goes right back to the Hap Arnold quote. We've got to make sure that they're ready to ensure our operations are effective. And I was recently at Eielson Air Force Base, and what we're doing at Eielson is really novel. We're going to put in a small, modular micro-reactor, a small baby nuclear reactor.   Naviere Walkewicz Is there a small version of that?   Dr. Chaudhary Yeah, there is a small version, but it hadn't been developed yet, and we decided that we're going to push on with this new capability and bring it to Eielson Air Force Base. The key is to now — back in the day, we used to do something, proof it military-wise, and then see if it's viable in the in the commercial market, right? Not anymore. We're going to do it all concurrently. So, we're going to pursue a Nuclear Regulatory Commission license. We've been engaging the local community. They love it, including tribal nations, who know that power advantages are going to be important for sharing in the community. And so that will be the first micronuclear reactor in any installation. We're looking to award in the spring or sooner, and then get this thing up and running in 2027. Why is this important at Eielson? And you're like, “Whoa, it's way up in Alaska.” Eielson is a critical entry point for the INDOPACOM theater.   Naviere Walkewicz I was gonna say, where it's located…   Dr. Chaudhary It's where the one of the highest concentrations of our 5th-gen fighter force is at. It's where we do air defense, and it's where our mobility forces will be moving from Fort Wainwright all the way down range. So that's a critical node, and there's a few more of those that we've got to really, really stay focused on. So, energy and, by the way, a happy Energy Action Month as well. This month is Energy Action Month where we're looking at how we can improve power consumption across our Air Force and be more efficient. And bringing these micro-grids online is going to be a crucial, crucial aspect of that.   Naviere Walkewicz 42:07 Well, something I've learned about you is that you're not afraid to push the envelope, push the speed, but do it, like you said, concurrently and to find some solutions. And I don't know that there's anyone else that could do it just like are you're doing it.   Dr. Chaudhary 42:19 It's not me, it's my team. I have an incredible team of folks that refuse to accept anything [less] than excellence in our department. In fact, we have a saying in our organization that, “We eat no for breakfast.” So, I dare you to tell us no and that we can't do something. One of our coolest announcements recently that we were told “no” to for roughly three years, was a new apartment complex at Edwards Air Force Base. So, some folks may not know this, but Edwards Air Force Space is very isolated, and it's located in the desert, and so it takes roughly 45 minutes to get to the base once you get through the gate. And so, isolation of our military members, especially our junior enlisted, has been around for roughly four decades or more. And when we said, “Hey, let's do a venture-backed business model that allows us to bring state of the art departments not in MILCOM timeline like right now, timeline…” And so, we just announced an all-new venture commercial apartment complex that we just broke ground on, and we're going to start building, hopefully done by 2026 and these are timelines that allow us to move the Air Force forward aggressively. Another thing that we're doing is, I just announced a $1.1 billion investment in our dormitories and CDCs. As you know, quality of life is so critical. Back to this: If we're going to be, say that we're the number, have the number one installations in the world, we've got to live up to it, and that means our families need that too, as well. So, you've heard a lot about the GAO reports, everything from mold to decrepit housing. We're going to fix that, we're going to get ahead of it, and we're going to stay ahead of it. And so that's why our secretary, in our most recent president's budget, announced this. All we need is a budget now, yeah, and so, so our secretary is pressing hard for that, and we know that once that budget is approved, we can get working on these things and start changing quality of life and start upping our game in our installations.   Naviere Walkewicz 44:23 Well, I'm gonna take one of those leadership nuggets as “just eat no for breakfast,” but we're gonna learn more about your final takeaway lessons. Before we do that with you. Dr Chaudhary, I wanna thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. The podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio, and it's available on all your favorite podcast platforms, watch or listen to all episodes of Long Blue Leadership at longblueleadership.org. Dr Chaudhary, this has been incredible. If you might leave our listeners with one thing, what would you like to share with them when it comes to leadership, or maybe just some lessons or anything about you that you'd like to share?   Dr. Chaudhary 44:57 Love what you do. Love our nation. I love my country because it's given me and my family everything. And I want everybody to believe that, you know, sometimes we get in these periods where we feel divided right across the spectrum, and it doesn't matter what your affiliation is, sometimes you just feel that. But I want folks to remember that America is not about what goes on entirely in Washington. It's about neighbors. It's about what you do for your neighbors. And to me, that's our biggest strength as a nation. You know, many years ago, our forefathers felt that the values of equality, fair treatment and self-determination would be enough to topple an empire, and it is. We should believe that too, and I want everybody to know that. So, it's an honor to be here. But before I go, I want to say thank you for just an intriguing hour. It's an honor to be here, and I want to give you my personal challenge coin…   Naviere Walkewicz Oh my goodness…   Dr. Chaudhary …and say thank you so much. It embodies a lot of what we do, military family housing, airfields, of course our beautiful 5th-gen fighter aircraft and our wind power and capabilities as a symbol of what we've got to do for installation school.   Naviere Walkewicz 46:16 That is an honor, sir. Thank you. Thank you so much. Oh my goodness, thank you.   Dr. Chaudhary 46:20 It was a great hour, and just a pleasure to spend time with…   Naviere Walkewicz 46:26 It was my pleasure. There's so much I wanted ask you and I know we're limited on time … Is there anything we can do for you?   Dr. Chaudhary 46:36 Just keep doing what you do. Keep making sure that our grads out there have a voice, have a say, and can contribute to all this institution has to offer our nation. And so, you're doing it, and I can't thank you enough for it.   Naviere Walkewicz 46:49 Thank you very much.     KEYWORDS Air Force, Dr. Ravi Chaudhary, leadership, installations, energy, community service, innovation, military, great power competition, sustainability, Air Force Academy, leadership, aviation, innovation, energy solutions, GPS, pilot training, military standards, personal growth, resilience     MORE FROM DR. CHAUDHARY ON THE FOR THE ZOOMIES PODCAST with C1C ANDREW CORMIER '25     The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation      

Brian Campbell, Assistant Vice President for Athletics Development at the University of Miami, shares his journey from growing up in Columbus, Ohio, to becoming a leader in athletics fundraising, his experiences as a cadet at the Air Force Academy, the challenges he faced, and the resilience he developed.  SUMMARY In this conversation, Brian Campbell, Assistant Vice President for Athletics Development at the University of Miami, shares his journey from growing up in Columbus, Ohio, to becoming a leader in athletics fundraising. He discusses his experiences as a cadet at the Air Force Academy, the challenges he faced, and the resilience he developed. Brian emphasizes the importance of leadership, surrounding oneself with great people, and the impact of private investment in athletics. He also reflects on his transition from military to civilian life and his current role in shaping the future of athletics at UM.   OUR TOP 5 FAVORITE QUOTES   "I think it's important to be really authentic with people, and that has worked. It's worked well for me, especially when those decisions are consistent with being authentic to what we're trying to accomplish."   "I think a lot about the elements that we put into it, because it's hard on a daily basis to know if you're doing a good job being a leader, but if you take those pieces of the fabric that we learned at the Academy, and you keep doing it the right way and thinking about these things and surrounding yourself by people with with surrounding yourself with people of those kinds of values, and people that you can take little pieces of what they do and try to try to bring them with You. I think it's the right road."   "I don't think I've arrived as a leader and I but I started to think that I probably that I would be willing to bet that General Clark might say the same thing, and Coach Calhoun might say the same thing. So I think it's always a work in process."   "If you take those pieces of the fabric that we learned at the Academy, and you keep doing it the right way and thinking about these things and surrounding yourself by people with with surrounding yourself with people of those kinds of values, and people that you can take little pieces of what they do and try to try to bring them with You. I think it's the right road."   "I think it's always a work in process, but I think it's important to be really authentic with people, and that has worked. It's worked well for me, especially when those decisions are consistent with being authentic to what we're trying to accomplish."  - Brian Campbell '08, the Long Blue Leadership Podcast   SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK  |  LINKEDIN   CHAPTERS 00:00: Introduction to Brian Campbell 02:52: Growing Up in Columbus and Early Athletic Influences 06:14: The Journey to the Air Force Academy 08:59: Life as a Cadet: Challenges and Resilience 11:53: Leadership Lessons from the Academy 15:10: Transitioning from Military to Civilian Life 18:06: Fundraising and Philanthropy in Athletics 21:00: The Kutra Legacy Center: A Personal Connection 23:53: Current Role at the University of Miami 27:06: Leadership Philosophy and Key Takeaways   TAKEAWAYS Brian's journey highlights the importance of resilience in overcoming challenges. Authenticity in leadership fosters trust and connection with others. Surrounding yourself with talented individuals can enhance personal growth. Private investment plays a crucial role in the success of athletic programs. Experiences at the Air Force Academy shape leadership philosophies. Fundraising in athletics is about building relationships and trust. Transitioning from military to civilian life requires adaptability and networking. The Kutra Legacy Center represents a significant investment in future cadets. Leadership is a continuous journey of learning and growth. Engaging with alumni can create impactful opportunities for current students.   ABOUT BRIAN CAMPBELL '08BIO Brian Campbell '08 joined the University of Miami in May of 2023 as Assistant Vice President for Athletics Development. In this role, Brian has oversight of fundraising operations, programs, and the development team for Miami Athletics. Brian came to UM from his alma mater, the United States Air Force Academy, where he had spent the previous five years, beginning in 2018 as the Assistant Athletic Director for Development and finishing as the Executive Director of Development for Strategic Programs and Athletic Giving. At Air Force, Brian was responsible for the fundraising strategy and execution for athletic capital projects, endowments, and major giving, in addition to other revenue generating initiatives.  He also served as the liaison to the Air Force Academy Foundation Board of Director's Athletic Committee.  The academy experienced unprecedented fundraising success during Brian's time at USAFA – most notably completing a $270 million campaign nearly 18-months ahead of schedule, headlined by multiple record-breaking years of fundraising. As part of the campaign, Brian led a $37.5 million fundraising effort to support the $90+ million modernization of the east side of Falcon Stadium.  Additionally, he managed the philanthropic component of a $500 million public-private partnership to develop a new hotel and visitors center outside USAFA's north gate.  Other accomplishments during this stretch included a lead gift to launch the renovation of Air Force's baseball venue, Falcon Field, and building the Wayne Baughman Wrestling Endowment, which seeks to provide operational funding for Air Force Wrestling in perpetuity. Brian brings 15 years of organizational leadership experience to UM from multiple sectors.  He rose to the rank of captain in the US Air Force, then climbed to the partner level at Anheuser-Busch InBev   where he led the sales and marketing efforts for the Northwest region, including several of the largest sports and entertainment partnerships in the portfolio. In each of the communities he's lived in, Brian has supported local initiatives – serving on the boards of the National Football Foundation of Colorado, the Missouri Veterans Initiative, and the Boys and Girls Club of Alton, Illinois.  He was a football student-athlete at the Air Force Academy and earned his MBA from the Olin Business School at Washington University in St. Louis. - Copy Credit:  University of Miami   CONNECT WITH BRIAN LINKEDIN     ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!          FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Guest, Brian Campbell '08  |  Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99   Naviere Walkewicz  00:00 My guest today is the Assistant Vice President for Athletics Development, Brian Campbell, USAFA, class of 2008. Brian joined the University of Miami in 2023 as Assistant Vice President for Athletics Development, where he oversees all fundraising for UM Athletics. In 2018 he served as Assistant Athletic Director for Development for Air Force Athletics, ultimately becoming Executive Director of Development for Strategic Programs and Athletic Giving. Brian led several highly successful, multi-million dollar fundraising campaigns, including playing a significant role in securing funding for the Falcon Stadium's newly open Kucera Legacy Center. While at the Academy, Brian was a football cadet-athlete and later earned his MBA from the Olin Business School at Washington University in St. Louis. He also spent five years in sports marketing with Anheuser Busch. We'll talk with Brian about his life as a young athlete, path to the Air Force Academy, his days as a cadet, leadership opportunities, and how he now uses what he learned to lead and positively impact others. Finally, we'll ask Brian to share advice for developing leaders and those in leadership aspiring to reach similar heights in their careers. Brian, welcome to long blue leadership, and thank you for joining us today.   Brian Campbell  01:18 Thanks, Naviere. I am honored to be on the podcast, and I'm really happy to be back in Doolittle Hall, albeit remotely, and I want to welcome you to the “U.”   Naviere Walkewicz  01:29 Thank you so much. I will take that warm weather. Yeah, well, we're really excited for this. Brian, I think a lot of our listeners love to hear the different paths that our leaders take from getting to the Academy in life after but we like to start by rewinding the clock a little bit. And we'd like to get to know you, Brian, as a young boy. Tell us about what life was like growing up, where you grew up, etc.   Brian Campbell  01:51 Yeah. I mean, I was, I grew up mostly in Columbus, Ohio. My family was from California, but my dad's job took us to Columbus when I was young. And you know, as I've reflected back on some of my career and the things that have led me to different spots, I think being a kid from Columbus, and regardless of people's feelings about Ohio State, which tend to be fairly negative here at the my current institution, the lens at which I grew up in was through a place with a massive presence of college athletics, you know, everything, everything in that community, with the fabric was Ohio State. I played every sport growing up. I'm very grateful to have grown up at a time where, you know, we went out in the yard, in the neighborhood, and did everything all day. We figured out our differences in the backyard. There are a couple other guys in the neighborhood who went on to very successful athletic endeavors as well. So, you know, athletics were very important all throughout and then as we got more serious and into competitive things later on, they become, you know, more and more formal. But you know, sports and the community were tied together, and they very much provided the context at which my career followed.   Naviere Walkewicz  03:14 That's awesome. So, you're really into sports. Did you have siblings as well? Or where was your neighborhood? Kind of the sibling playground for you.   Brian Campbell  03:22 I have two sisters both swam in college, although if one of them listens to this, I think she had like a cup of coffee on the swim team and realized that the rest of the extracurricular activities were a little bit more appealing. But my little sister swam all the way through in a very competitive college program. But there were but outside, in the streets and in the yard were where we spent our time. We would change by season. So, in the fall, we play football in the yard, and then the winter, you know, you'd shovel off and play basketball, and then in the summer, we'd play baseball. So, so all of the above.   Naviere Walkewicz  04:01 I love that. And I noticed you didn't say you ever went to the pool, so I'm sure that your sisters could definitely outswim you.   Brian Campbell  04:06 I went to the pool too. There was plenty of swimming in our family.   Naviere Walkewicz  04:12 Wonderful. So, you know, life as a child, you were really into athletics, and I think it developed your sense of competitor, you know, being a competitor about and winning. But also, it's probably teamwork. You know, what other things as a child could you share with our listeners about what it was like for you in Ohio?   Brian Campbell  04:32 I think all the above. I think, you know, when you have to work things out. You know, we weren't an era then the kids had cell phones or anything like that. You had to knock on someone's door, see if you could form a team, get out in the front yard and go take care of things. But yeah, we did stuff really. I mean, I'm kind of thinking back to one of my neighbors who went on to play some college football. He one time he broke his leg in the yard and kept playing.   Naviere Walkewicz Oh my goodness.   Brian Campbell Yeah, but, you know, you learn to get along with other people. You know the saying of taking your ball and going home, that's, you know, you have to figure out how to get past those things. And I think the social dynamic that you gain from those experiences very much stayed with me, and I think is some of the foundation and the work that I do now, and being able to identify with different people in different situations.   Naviere Walkewicz  05:28 Alright, so I like what you're sharing about kind of you know, the social aspect that you've experienced growing up. Tell me about how it the Academy came into the picture. Then was it, was there someone that you grew up learning from that went to the Air Force Academy. Or how did that happen?   Brian Campbell  05:46 Well, as a sophomore in high school, as I was thinking of thinking back to some of these things, my dad actually took me to visit West Point, and we had a family friend who went to school there, and I remember going to visit him, and he was probably getting close to maybe in the summer before his senior year, and I remember him like getting pulled aside, and there was something that he had been doing wrong. Maybe. Is it related to escorting guests around the campus? It was during Sandhurst, and so we watched Sandhurst, and honestly, I remember thinking like this does not seem like any way to spend college, but as I went back, I was very fortunate to have like really, really good coaches in my life who were very interested in developing me and growing me and pushing out of my comfort zone. My high school football coach was very hard on me at times, but I think he saw something in me. And you know, when I began to look at colleges, and I was thinking about, like, could I play football somewhere? And there was a variety of schools, and I went on, I went on different visits in different places, and I just remember feeling like nowhere really made a lot of sense for me, like I didn't really feel like any of them really fit the things that were important to me. And then I got the chance to go on a visit to the Air Force Academy, and honestly, I was just like, I just, why not go see Colorado? I've never seen the mountains. So we took the trip out, and I was hosted on my visit by Rob McMenamin, who recently, unfortunately passed away, but was like just the greatest person you know, that could have possibly, that I could have come across at that time, and between him and the people I met on my visit, it was more about the fact that I felt like I was at home, and I had found a group of people that seemed so similar to me that I ended up deciding that that's what I wanted to do. Now we got back to Columbus, and my mom wanted me to talk to someone who didn't play football, and so they somehow found some other cadet, and I had, she's like, “You have to call him and ask him.” So, I called this guy, and I don't even remember his name. We'll see if he listens to the podcast. But he told me he's like, “I don't, I wouldn't do it, you know?” He's like, “It's, it's brutal, it's really hard.” And, oh, wow, I just don't think. But I got off the phone, and it didn't matter to me, like and so for me, it was, maybe it was just a feeling. It was the excitement of being part of something like that. I think I did understand how important the academies are, and what a serious opportunity that was. And maybe it was the fact that I never really thought I would have an opportunity to go to a place like that, but once I, it just kind of sat right, you know, I decided to pursue it.   Naviere Walkewicz  08:48 I love that. And I think what was really key about what you said was it felt like family or you're finding others that are like you. And so how did your parents respond to that? I mean, I think I love that your mom said, “Let's look at both sides.” Let's get everything you know, a perspective that's beyond athletics as well. And so, it's kind of a testament to, probably your upbringing, the fact that your parents are like, let's make some really sound decisions. Would you say that that's the case?   Brian Campbell  09:17 Yeah, I think once my mom got over the fact that it was a military academy. I mean, she asked the one of the coaches that came to our house, like, “What's, what happens afterwards?”, you know, but what was instilled in me at a young age, and when we that, my mom valued education a lot, and so that was, that was in me, and candidly, it was probably the best educational opportunity I was going to have, and it was the best athletic opportunity I was going to have. So those two things were really important. I mean, when we got to the Air Force Academy, I remember my dad being like, “Holy cow, this is a really big deal.” And, you know, I just, I sometimes think back to those times. Times where you know before you go through it, and you see the full grind and all the things that are required, you know, to go through our school, you forget how cool it is from the outside, and the mystique and the things that make it so unique. And I remember, I just remember all that and, and obviously the football piece was a big deal, despite how my football career ended up going to be, to be offered an opportunity to be a part of something like that. Just the weight was, you know, it was so significant, it outweighed any other opportunity I had.   Naviere Walkewicz  10:37 That's wonderful. So, let's talk about that transition then. So, you came to the Academy, you recruited football for what position?   Brian Campbell  10:46 Tight end.   Naviere Walkewicz  10:47 Tight end, awesome. And so, what was, do you remember day one? What was it like coming to the Academy for the second time after your recruiting visit?   Brian Campbell  10:55 Yeah. So, you know, as I think back to my time as a cadet, I mean, the things that really weave through everything are the relationships, and it's interesting. I don't know when we'll broadcast this, but right now we're 4 and 0 here. We just beat South Florida and because we're not for here right now. But okay, that doesn't feel good to me either. But you know, when I was, when I was there, I had a call on the way to Tampa with the first person I met on my recruiting visit at Southgate, when they were trying to figure out how to get us on the base.,   Naviere Walkewicz Really.   Brian Campbell Yeah, and it's just, you know, it's completely normal, you know, or, you know, it's not like we're out of touch. But like that, I talked to that person and the person I spent the day with Saturday before the game was the person that I roomed with in basic training and I still talk to the people that I'm very close with every day. But you know, to this day, the two people I probably met first were, I mean, we're just a very significant amount of time last week. So, I mean, I remember everything. I remember going down the shot line, getting all the things in my arm, and then the blazing hot scissors or whatever they put on our head and everything and then I remember standing in the hallway, but I honestly had no idea what was happening. And I'll never forget that the next morning, when they come and start pounding down the doors, and like, my hands were shaking and they're yelling about, like, BD us. And I was like, “What on earth is a BDU?” And then, you know, I'm like, looking around, trying to figure out what people are going to put on. And then the guy that I was telling you about that I just saw in Tampa, you know, he was a Navy Junior ROTC, so he starts saying, like, sir to people. And like, you know, all chaos broke loose, and we were off and running.   Naviere Walkewicz  12:54 Wow. Well, I could say that your roommate was helpful, but until he said, “Ill sir.”, that might not have been too helpful for you. Yeah, he wasn't running.   Brian Campbell  13:02 Yeah, he wasn't. He wasn't all that helpful.   Naviere Walkewicz  13:05 Wow. So off you went into your four-degree year. What was life like as a cadet for you? I mean, I think you know, you obviously were in football and you were having to do all the academics. So, let's talk about that experience a little bit.   Brian Campbell  13:20 Yeah. I mean, the Academy was really hard for me, you know, as the first place where I was around so many talented people, and probably at a different you know, a lot of them were at a different stage in their journey than I think I was. I was really trying to figure things out as I went. You know, I kind of hit some bumps in the road with my health. And, you know, like anybody that your four-degree years, really, really difficult. And, you know, I showed up, I was probably about, you know, 220 pounds. And they, you know, were eating and eating and eating to try to get bigger. And I think I went home for like, winter break, I was already, like, 250 and, and so, you know, I don't know where things would have gone from there, but that spring of my four-degree year, I started to have some health problems and, and it took them a long time to figure out what was going on. And I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease, and I had lost like, 60 pounds by that point, and it was a really, really difficult period for me, because I was trying to get through school and academics. I tried to keep playing football. Eventually I had to, you know, step away for a little bit and figure out my health. But I learned in that time, a doctor said, like, you can't have Crohn's disease and be in the Air Force. And I remember walking out of the cadet clinic, and I took the elevator up by McDermott, and because it was a doctor's appointment, it's like, everybody's in class, so the place is completely quiet. And I walked out, and it was like just a crystal clear day, like the sky couldn't have been more blue above the Chapel and the Air Gardens are on, and I'm like, I don't want to leave here, you know. And I think that changed my perspective on the entire experience. And it was a really meaningful time for me, because I realized that the things that had already happened there and in a difficult first year were, had made a big impact on me, and I had some, I got some guidance from some other graduates, and they helped me navigate them, the medical process a little bit, and I was able to stay and I just wanted to be there long enough to graduate. And I was fortunate enough to have a little bit more. I managed to blow out both my knees after that. Naviere Walkewicz Oh my goodness!   Brian Campbell Yeah, both ACLs a year apart. So, I kept trying to do stuff, and it kept not working. But, you know, to be a part of the program and the relationships that I have from that, I mean, they still mean the world, even though, even though it was a little bit of a bumpy ride, right?   Naviere Walkewicz  16:03 So, your path, it looked a little different, probably from what you imagined coming to the Academy, especially growing up as the ultra-athlete. You know every sport for every season. Tell us about a little bit how you dealt with some of those challenges, because I think some of our listeners will experience things in life that kind of derail them from what they view as this is my path. And how did you keep your head above the fray and stay in a positive light, I guess, or maybe you didn't. What did that look like as you dealt with each of those challenges throughout the Academy?   Brian Campbell  16:38 Yeah, I mean, I think you learn in basic training there in hard times that you just are making it to the next meal. And I think for me, there was a stretch where I where I did that, and I look back now, and I feel like maybe because of that, there were things the academy offered that I wasn't able to take advantage of. But at the time, you know, I was so focused on just getting through the next thing and being able to kind of maintain my place there. But I think whether I knew it at the time or not, it built a significant resiliency in me, and I was not going to quit. I mean, if they were going to get rid of me, they were going to get rid of me, but I was not going to quit, and I was going to figure out a way to do it. And I think those are, those are elements that are very important in in what I've become and you know how I how I handle things to this day, if you can get through our school and if in everybody has challenges, and everybody has different things in their lives that they face. That's mine just happened to be health related, but I was very fortunate to have a huge support network. I had a great group of friends there. I mean, I had people who were who were rooting for me to be able to be successful and because of that, I was able to, I was able to continue to proceed through it, and all those elements were important for me in being able to do it.   Naviere Walkewicz  18:10 Now that's really, I think, insightful about you, and I think a testament to everyone just kind of finding something next to get to, like, in our case, it was getting to the next meal in basic, you know, you talked about being involved in sports and then having some of these health challenges. What did leadership look like for you at the Academy? Did you find yourself in certain roles where you were leading cadets? Or what did that look like?   Brian Campbell  18:37 Yeah, I mean, maybe this is if any cadets listen. You know, I was not in any, like, significant leadership positions as a cadet. I had, I think, what you would call some of the standard squadron jobs. And as I kind of reflect on, like, what I was learning about myself, you know, I think I tried to do a good job in those but, but, you know, I think I learned that there are formal leadership positions and then there's informal leadership. And what I don't think I appreciated was that, you know, you can still have impact on the people around you, whether or not you know the role dictates it, or your rank dictates it. I recall one time, you know, if you remember the squadron rankings, and we had gone from, like, second to 35th or something like that, and we had the equivalent of what would be like a players only meeting, where they said we were off in the S.A.R., like, trying to figure out, like, why we were in. And really, what you're driven by is there aren't going to be any passes to go anywhere, because at least at that time, it was directly related to how you were doing. And a lot of people talked, and there are a lot of opinions, and I remember finally feeling like I should say something, and I and I talked, and I just remember thinking like everyone seems to be listening. And I kind of noted that at that time, that I wasn't the squadron commander or anything like that, but it seemed like people valued my opinion, and it seemed like it resonated with a large swath of our squadron. And I think I take that with me now, because I believe there's kind of a meritocracy of ideas. You know, we all have rank in our organization, whether it's the military or whether it's something completely different. There's always different people who have different levels of authority. But, you know, I think great teams value ideas that come, that come from anybody.   Naviere Walkewicz  20:38 I think that is just a really important piece of information that you shared, because many times we have some of our developing leaders who may feel that they don't have the ability to share a thought because they think that they're too Junior. And so, what you just said, I think, was really powerful and hopefully empowering for some of our listeners to bring something to the table when they have something to share. So, I really appreciate you sharing that example. That was awesome. So, before we go into graduation, and what that looked like after you graduated, were there any specific people I know you said you had a great network of support. But were there any real like, inspirational leaders that kind of helped shaped you after you left the Academy, or right before you left into your life after the Academy?   Brian Campbell  21:31 Yeah, absolutely. I think that one thing that like means a lot to me are the people that I'm exposed to. I mean, I remember thinking a lot of General Rosa, who was our superintendent at the time. He guided the Academy through a difficult time. My four-degree AOC was just an outstanding leader, Joe Richardson. I have no idea what became of him, but, you know, in a tough year, it was like, every time we went in to our, you know, meet with our squadron, it was always like he had the right thing to say, and his presence was so strong, and we had some bumps in the road in our group that year, and he did everything he could to navigate through it. But, you know, he was, he was the kind of person who was, like, just a strong, inspirational type, type leader, and we needed that. I mean, you know, such a tough year, but you really felt like he was able to give us the energy and the courage to keep going for it, but he was also someone I think we all looked up to. And if you haven't been around the military a lot in your life, and you can see people like he went to our school and look at the kind of person he is now. That's a direction you hope you can follow. And then a completely other style was just being around Coach Deberry who wore his heart on his sleeve and said everything he wanted to say, and it came all out of love and passion. And he just he had that kind of style, and he built an organization that was really family centric and that was important to him. And then even my senior year, when I was just kind of like helping the staff in some different roles there, like when Coach Calhoun came in, it was a completely different style and tactic that he took. So I mean, the great thing about the Academy, I think we all talk about it a lot, is that you're exposed to leadership, you're exposed to cadet leaders, and you see how you respond to those things, too, and you take note of those as you grow, but we have some people who are also, like, very, very, you know, bona fide leaders that we had access to, and that would just be like the beginning of my list. I think now that makes sense.   Naviere Walkewicz  23:53 I'm sure the list is long because of just the exposure that you've had in different in different ways. So, when you graduated, what career field did you go into?   Brian Campbell  24:04 So I went into acquisitions, and my guidance from one of the doctors at the Academy there was, what can we do to take the least amount of grad physicals? So that's what I did.   Naviere Walkewicz  24:16 I was going to ask if that was what your passion was. But it sounds like it well, it teed off into something really well for you, and it also played well into your needs.   Brian Campbell  24:26 For sure, it did. It led me to things down the line, you know, Acquisitions. For me, it was an opportunity to be a part of a great organization. And there were parts of the Air Force that I valued. I also took note that that was probably not the thing that was going to excite me the most, and but I learned a lot about how, how kind of the business side of the Air Force works. And it was, it was still a great experience. I got to go all over the world. I got to be a part of a lot of really cool things that probably even at that age, I didn't really appreciate. I think the challenge for me in that particular career field is that you weren't really around a lot of active-duty Air Force members. And I think I missed that piece a little bit.   Naviere Walkewicz  25:13 Well, I think it's interesting, because one of the things that you've been able to do, I think, is find ways to give back in your career post, you know, military service, so that's probably been really rewarding for you. Can we talk a little bit about, you know, when you decided to transition out of the military? Because we do have listeners that both stay in uniform all the way through retirement and those who don't, who think about transitioning. So, I think it's really relevant. How did you come to that decision, and what did it look like for you?   Brian Campbell  25:44 Well, the Air Force came to the decision for me. So, I was going to PCS to my next station, and I'll never forget when the phone rang in my squadron commander's office. He came. It was like I knew what was going to happen, and the clock had run out on this whole Crohn's disease thing, and I was going to see a medical board and all that, all that kind of stuff. I ended up just saying that that's okay and I'll, I'm not. It was going to be like a year until I could go through that process, which didn't seem like very prudent at the time. I knew I was kind of proverbially playing with house money at that point, I was just so glad to have had my time in the Air Force and to be a part of the organization, you know, at least get to be a captain, but I didn't even fulfill my service commitment. So, it's really about the four and a half year point that that happened. And so, it was a little sudden, because I didn't know that that was going to happen. And so, I decided to kind of step away from the career field the you know, from work, I guess, altogether, and go to business school full time. So I went back to my desk, and I went through all the I got on US News and World Report and started going down the list of business schools and finding out who still had an application deadline available. And like three of the top 25 responded. And from there, I was able to do that. But the great thing for me was that I was able to spend two years away in a fully immersive environment, learning about the business side of management, which is different than the Air Force leadership style that we have in the in the military, and putting those two things together and thinking about some of my initial aspirations of, you know, maybe there's A career in sports. What might that look like? And you just get so, so many opportunities there to get exposed to people in different career fields. And those two years at “Wash U” for me were, were, I'm very, very fortunate to have those. They had a target of getting 10% of the class to be veterans, so I called the right school at the right time, and they were like, hey, just we'll help you. We'll help you figure this out. And they did everything they could to give me that opportunity.   Naviere Walkewicz  28:10 That's amazing. And I was going to ask, did you see the value of what you'd experienced at the Academy coming to play in your program there, that you were able to share with others, and what did leadership look like for you there?   Brian Campbell  28:23 Yeah, so, you know, in business school, it's a constant. I think balance between everything is about shareholder maximization and wealth creation, and they have to teach you those fundamentals. I think Olin did a good job reminding us about character-based management and leadership, and we had classes about critical decisions in leadership and management and things like that. And they brought some very senior business leaders in to talk about key inflection points of things that they had, and then, you know, we had, there's a professor there whose areas, area of study is, you know, economics with a higher purpose, and that's blending, like, how does being doing the right thing, and having something that's beyond just, you know, running your operation to the most efficient manner possible, and he's been able to show that organizations who do that and have a higher purpose are more successful. And so, for me, that is kind of the philosophy that I moved forward with in my career. So very different, very business fundamentals, but as you got towards the end, it was important to them that we understood that it wasn't always everything. Wasn't always about the near-term dollar and that things could your organizations are rewarded for doing the right thing and making decisions in the right way.   Naviere Walkewicz  30:00 Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like you absolutely picked the right program that really aligned with your own core values, you know, your own kind of, I think, navigational system as well as you know where you're wanting to go with things. So, what did that look like? Then, after you graduated, I know you spent some time at Anheuser Busch. Was that kind of just the next part of that journey?       Brian Campbell  30:20 Yeah, so I wanted to get back into sports right away, and so I started a networking process of I tried to meet with NFL teams. I didn't, I just didn't know how or what I was going to do, but I knew that that was my opportunity, a mentor of mine that I did a project for while I was at all. And he well, first of all, I started to find out also what jobs in sports pay. So, anybody listening to this guy's aspirations, just get that part settled for yourself right away. But it didn't matter to me. But I did have a bill I needed to figure out from business school. And his recommendation was, you know, you're down the street from essentially the biggest sports marketer in the world, you know, go there, you know, pursue that, and then figure out down the line if you still want to come back. And that ended up being the perfect step for me. You know, not only did I go to a place that ended up being a bridge back into this work, but Anheuser Busch, and the way that company is run is incredibly efficient and driven and lean and everything there is about value, and it's run by a set of Investment bankers who brought their philosophies into consumer goods, and, and, and they're extremely market share based, but it was, it was really cool to be a part of an organization that does things that way. And candidly, it was probably the other end of the spectrum than just being in the military. And both should operate in the way that they do, but that was such a valuable experience for me to work for an organization like that. I could not have done it forever. So, and I did get over into sports marketing, I ended up having what I think a lot of people would think is like maybe the coolest job of all time. I had the chance to run our whole northwest marketing portfolio. So, I had, you know, our Broncos partnerships and Vail Resorts. It took me back to Colorado to be in that office from, from being in New York City, we had the Seahawks, but it also we had a little college down the street that we had a partnership with called the Air Force Academy.   Naviere Walkewicz  32:39 I was wondering, how you direct to Colorado? That's where it was, yeah.   Brian Campbell  32:43 So, we had an office in Denver, and after a few years of doing that, Anheuser-Busch wants you to move around. They want you to grow. You can't stay in a lot of these jobs forever. And so, I knew there was a point where if I really wanted to do this, and I still felt such a calling to come and do this kind of work, and I kind of felt like I'd never forgive myself if I didn't try. So, I started making a lot of calls and knocking down doors. And eventually, eventually, a position opened back at the Academy, and I, like borderline forced them to hire me,   Naviere Walkewicz  33:15 Brian, I'm seeing a theme. I mean, as a kid, you would knock down doors come play. You know, when you were, got out of the military, when you were when you had to go, you were knocking down doors, “What's open for me?” So, I think the theme for you is, don't be afraid to knock down some doors and just see what's available. You went back to the Academy. Let's talk about your time there and what kind of evolved since then.   Brian Campbell  33:39 So, I came back to the Academy, we had a had the chance to learn a little bit about raising money in our athletic department, and we were coming up on a campaign like the first real significant campaign that had happened at the at the Air Force Academy. I mean, before I got back, I didn't even really know what a campaign was, to give people some context and where I was there, but General Gould said, “Hey, we're going to do this project on Falcon Stadium.” And, you know, and I thought to myself, hey, if I'm going to be here at the Academy, I need to be a part of this project. And so, I transitioned from our athletic department over to our foundation in about in 20-, early 2020, and had the chance to work on the projects that were that were happening there.   Naviere Walkewicz  34:27 So, I think this is helpful. Many of our listeners may not be aware of the ways that some of our foundations support the Academy, and I think through athletics is certainly one way. Can you talk a little bit about what that looks like, so that we can share more about the context of a campaign and giving back?   Brian Campbell  34:45 Yeah, I mean, I think my, my reflection on it is like the government's going to do enough to keep the doors open and provide a basic, solid experience. I think the US News and World Report rankings came out like today, we're number two. We're not number two without private investment. And I hear a lot from young grads about like they're asking me for money. They're asking me for money, and what they're asking you for is to invest in the experience and for us and on our resumes and the prevalence of our of our institution, and this is a competitive world that stuff matters and allows us at the Academy to keep professors that the government wouldn't necessarily be able to keep, to give very enriching research opportunities to cadets that otherwise I don't think we're really there when we were around. And it allows us, you know, militarily and then athletically, to be competitive at the highest level. And you know, when we say excellence in all we do, we're talking about being, you know, excellent in every facet of this of the Academy. And so, we're very fortunate that people have stepped forward at the Academy to invest in these areas and help us shape what they what they've created, and what they've become. And so private investment is a, is a real factor in our success there. And I got the chance to be in the middle of it and have a lot of those discussions and meet people who wanted to help. And it's an opportunity for them to kind of, you know, provide their passion or something they're particularly interested in, to shape the experience of the cadets. So, it's a very enriching process, and it's a really wonderful thing to be a part of.   Naviere Walkewicz  36:47 Well, I can share that, you know, I had the ability to work with you briefly when you came here, and then I joined in 2021 and there was so much that I learned. But I think what was really rewarding for me was to understand that to what you just said, you can actually invest in ways that you feel really compelled and what's important to you at the Academy. And so maybe you can share with our listeners what was something really rewarding, aside from the Kucera Legacy Center coming to life now, and we can talk about that. But what was something really rewarding to you that you were part of in the philanthropic side of our business?   Brian Campbell  37:20 Yeah, I mean not just being a fundraiser there, but I mean the chance to give myself and make the commitments that I could to the Academy that meant a lot to me to be able to help, but I enjoyed seeing like the little grassroots campaigns that were put together that gave cadets reprieve from life and rewarded them for different things. You know, NCLS is an amazing thing that happens there, that you get to take a step back from every year and appreciate the kind of people we bring back and put in front of the cadets. So, I mean, aside from the big projects, there's just stuff every single day, and you get emails from the cadets and ask like, “Hey, can we do this? Can we, what would it take to change our squadron to something else?” And you can help weigh out a little plan. And those aren't the dollars that necessarily drive campaign totals, but they matter because they matter to the cadets and the way that, you know those finances work there it's, you know, so many people have invested in the Foundation and the Association in a way that, you know, all these resources can get directly poured into cadets and because the government keeps the doors open, we can do things that are additionally impactful. You know, at other schools, like where I'm at now, we have to fill an endowment because of how we have to continue to operate the school. So that's not something we, I mean, there's ways that are that's helpful at the Academy too, but it's not as critical at the Academy, because the lights are on and we can be extremely effective in the investments through donors to impact cadets directly.   Naviere Walkewicz  39:06 No, that makes sense. I really like what you said about you got to give yourself. And I think part of what I've been picking up in our conversation is a lot of I think giving and investing is through relationships. And so I think some of the biggest pieces that come from that is the trust and relationships you build with people. Would you agree? Is that kind of how you feel about things?   Brian Campbell  39:26 Yeah, I do. And I you know, if I didn't go to the Air Force Academy, I'm not sure I would be doing this kind of work, even though the Air Force Academy is not designed to put you into this kind of work. But the relationships that I had from the academy and then throughout my time back there, are as important to me as just about anything you just the school exposes you to just such outstanding people. And I'm just very. Be grateful for, for all of those relationships that, that I've had the privilege to have.   Naviere Walkewicz  40:06 So, Brian, we've been talking about the ways we give back and relationships built. Let's, talk a little bit about the Kucera Legacy Center, because we just were able to the ribbon cutting and just beautiful experience with Jack and Vianne. What did it mean to you?   Brian Campbell  40:21 You know, being back at the Academy during the time that I was back, and maybe a lot of the people who listen to this maybe know what has happened on our Academy over the last three years, but the investment that's gone back into our school is just staggering. You know, not only the Kucera Legacy Center, but the Madeira Center, the hotel that's going up, the visitors center, the expansion to do it all, but the Kucera Legacy Center was kind of near and dear to my heart, and it was an opportunity given to me to be a really significant part of the entire project. Was one thing that took every piece of the institution to make happen. But it took Jack and Vianne really specifically. And it wasn't just their investment, but it was like a vision from Jack that I think got us through some times, that you know, maybe in years past, the project would not have, would not have continued on. And you know what I'll remember most is not just working on the gift that they made with them, but like working on the elements that were important to them to see in the facility. And the unique thing about that project is it's not just a facility. It is a way that we can invest back into our Academy and cadets. It's one of the few things on the Academy that can be commercialized and a positive return on investment. So, it's going to be used for a lot of things, but I'll never forget of the groundbreaking. Jack does so much for our school. And he was talking about, you know, why he flies Coach Calhoun around to recruit, and for coach, it's hugely helpful for him to get, you know, Division One coaches essentially have to fly in that manner. They have to fly private to be able to recruit effectively. That's a that's not an easy thing for our school to provide, and so Jack flies coach around a lot. And you know, I know Jack wants us to win football games, because I've watched some football games with him, and he's like one of the few people that can match as tense and nervous as I am, but he talked about the fact that everywhere they go, they knock on a door, and Coach Calhoun is giving some young person an opportunity to change their life. And you know, for them, we have this beautiful facility. Now, I can't wait to come back and see it, but I think that's what it is for them, is that's maybe the physical manifestation of their gift is knowing that, you know when, when, when young people accept that opportunity to come to the Air Force Academy, and they probably wouldn't have gotten it for this particular subset without a sport, that they can change their lives. And you know, watch being a part of that, even the small little part that I was is something that I think is a really, really significant part of my career and my journey.   Naviere Walkewicz  43:30 Wow. I mean, that's almost a 360 for you, right? You were someone who was given that opportunity, and now thinking about the future cadets that are going to be given a similar opportunity with something that you were part of in such a legacy and visionary manner, from Jack and Vianne. I mean, it's just incredible.   Brian Campbell  43:48 Yeah, absolutely.   Naviere Walkewicz  43:51 So, Brian, you have taken a role at the University of Miami, and let's talk a little bit about that. So, you were able to do some things here at the Academy. How's it been in the transition for you there at UM?   Brian Campbell  44:04 I mean, it's been, it's been crazy. So, you know, we're in the real battle of college athletics down here at a time that's very dynamic. It's an unbelievable opportunity to be a part of a traditional powerhouse with really, really significant aspirations, but a big part of it for me as I had the chance to come down here and work for a really high level team at a time that the school wanted to invest in athletics. And you know, the athletic director that I work for here, he won two national titles at Clemson. We have multiple other former division one athletic directors on our staff, and we do transformational things around this campus through athletics, but for other areas, our medical system and our academic side as well. So, it's been a challenge for me to get to learn the dynamic here. You know, at the Air Force Academy, a lot of people have a lot of thoughts on a lot of things. Miami supporters have a lot of thoughts on one thing, and that's winning football games. But, you know, the fundamentals remain the same, and I've been given a chance to kind of reshape the way we do this work. And for those that follow college athletics, it's been at a very, very fascinating time where there's huge change in the industry. There's a ton of uncertainty, and it's really forced me to think a lot about how we do our work and why we do it. And I think as a lot of people probably think that with Nio and possible rev-share and things like that, that we're losing the fabric of college athletics. There are little instances of that, but we are able to kind of double down on other ways to make an impact on our student athletes here and invest in their lives. So, it's been it's a challenge. We have a lot of work to do, but we're on the road, having some successes is really helpful. And being in a place that has really, really high expectations is really special to be a part of.   Naviere Walkewicz  46:16 So, you talked a bit about the fundamentals, and so what have you taken from your time at the Academy throughout your career to bring to UM now?   Brian Campbell  46:27 Yeah, I think the noise in college athletics and our work has become more complex. I took the opportunity to kind of distill things back down to the core mission of what we do, and that's to positively impact lives through excellence in athletics and our team, our role in that effort is to is to invest in those areas. So, we focus on, you know, kind of three key areas to do that. One of them is performance, kind of elite performance. The next one is what we call champions for life, which is investing in academics and in student athlete development. And then the last one is competitive excellence, and that's acknowledging that there's an area now with Nio and possible revenue share with athletes that we also have to be competitive in. But I've encouraged our team to think about, like, what the real purpose of our work is, and like what we do every day. And I think I kind of touched on a little bit of that earlier, when things got really confusing in the industry and stuff like that, understanding that, like our job really is simply to enrich an experience for our student athletes here, and best prepare them for the world. And if we do that really well, we're going to be really successful. And when we talk about that purpose on our team, you know, I try to find people to join our team who are going to resonate with that. And for me, I think when you identify with that purpose and kind of the core elements of it, it also makes me better at what I do, and better at leading and being authentic with the team that there are challenges but in there, and we're in a we're in an environment with headwinds and high expectations and high levels of competitiveness. But if we can focus on doing those things, we're going to make we're going to make every bit the kind of impact that has always been made in college athletics.   Naviere Walkewicz  48:33 So, what have you learned about yourself as a leader throughout this journey? It sounds like you've had just various opportunities to understand who you are in different roles. How does that translate in your leadership? What does that look like to our listeners?   Brian Campbell  48:49 Yeah, I think what I've learned over time is that in the Air Force, you are in the people business, and everything we do is kind of by for and through people. And I'm not sure if I understood it, even when I was in the beer business, but really, you're in the beer business, you're in the beer business, or you're in the people business, and your product is beer. And then now I'm kind of in the in the middle of this now, where we have a product, but our product, once again, is people. Now we have to be, you know, commercially viable, and there's a there's a significant financial side of what we do. But I think back to my time at the Academy, and I think one thing you can't escape at the Academy is that you know you're bringing your whole self every day to what we're doing. You know you are you're in it. You don't go home anywhere else. So, your squadron is where you live, and, and you realize that you know what's happening in your life, and, and, and for anybody that's on the team, like they're going to bring it with them, and, for me, I've thought, I think we talk a lot in business and leadership about acknowledging that and being there for people and being empathetic. But the other side of it is, you know, if our people are our most important asset, then what are we doing to invest in them and through, you know, this is a really busy kind of work, and authentically making sure that my team knows, and I hope that they do that we're going to try to grow them, and we're going to try to reward them for being successful, because it matters to the bottom line. It's not just the right thing to do. It helps move us forward, because if we're improving the conditions that they can go home to and spend with their families, we're going to get a better version of them, and it's going to improve the work that we do. So I think being in such an immersive type of place like the Air Force Academy, you realize that there is no turning it off when you leave or go somewhere, we go through difficult times, but we also have the opportunity in these kinds of roles to improve that and make sure people are fulfilled and finding their purpose in our work. And inevitably, I really do believe that that impacts our bottom line.   Naviere Walkewicz  51:21 What fulfills you and your work as a leader?   Brian Campbell  51:26 I mean, there's so much. This is what I love to do. And I love to be around the competition side of things, and I love to see when we're able to make something happen, a donor's vision to invest in our student athletes. And, you know, you see some of the things that they go on to accomplish, and you see what it means to the institution. I mean, you know, here, I think sometimes we think like, wow, college football in America is just bonkers, and it's crazy. It's gone off the rails, you know. But here at the University of Miami, you know, we have a we have a really, we have the biggest research based health system in South Florida, and it's the same logo that's on our helmet and that health system is successful because we have a very strong brand through football mostly, and In so I think we take that very seriously, that you know our work is directly tied to things that happen, not only on our campus, but in the healthcare system here as well. But you know, the true where the rubber meets the road is seeing the success that you know our student athletes have and enriching their experience and being able to tie that back to the people that make that possible.   Naviere Walkewicz  52:45 So, if we have any listeners that are interested in getting into the gift officer kind of role, the ability to help others invest, what would you share with them as maybe just a path or things to be considering?   Brian Campbell  52:59 Yeah, I mean, fundraising and development's a whole it's a whole industry, and it would be great to have more grads that would come into this kind of work. I mean, I was often asked by donors at the academy, why more people? Why more grads aren't doing it? And it's a unique it's a unique career path, but if there's elements of things that are meaningful to you, and you think that you know, nonprofit work might be appealing. Fundraising is a great way to do it. There's ups and downs. It's challenging. There's a bit of a craft to learn to it, but it's, this is not rocket science in any way. But if I really thought I was going to do it, I'd pick up the phone and call a grad who does it. I can think of a couple names off the top of my head and just ask and start to network. And when I moved over into college athletics in order to do that, I mean, I probably made 500 phone calls, and I always ask someone for the next name and network that way. And I received tremendous advice, and it was really good practice for what I ended up doing. I would encourage. I would love it if more would come into this line of work. You heard it here first friends, yeah, we'll see how effective it is.   Naviere Walkewicz  54:15 That is wonderful. Well, we're going to get into a couple more things before, before our podcast ends. So, Brian, I just want to ask you in advance so you have some time to think about this. Our listeners want to know something unique about you, maybe something that you haven't shared with anybody you know, something fun or some kind of talent you have. So, I'll give you a little bit of time to think about that, and then we're also going to want to hear your takeaways. So, before we get there, we're going to ask for Brian's final thoughts next. Before we do that, I'd like to take a moment and thank you our listener for listening to long blue leadership. The podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio, and is available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Be sure to watch or listen to all episodes of Long blue leadership@longblueleadership.org All right, so Brian, welcome back, and we're really excited. Our listeners love to learn things here on Long Blue Leadership that they can only hear here. So, would you mind sharing with us something that is unique about you?   Brian Campbell  55:15 Well, I think before the break, you mentioned a talent, so I'm going to take credit for this being a talent during covid, I started getting into, like, amateur mixology, and so, yeah, at home. Now this is maybe a dangerous habit to have, but I do, I do share some of my work with some of the administration there still so, so it's definitely bled into Doolittle Hall a little bit, but I've learned to make, like, very specific cocktails and stuff like that. And I love doing it. I love trying something new all the time. So, I don't know if that's a talent or not. People can come have a have a drink with me at my house and decide to do when you have, when you have two little kids, you need to bring the fun. Needs to be at home. That's right, yeah, so, so, so that's, that's kind of my unique interest, I guess, more than a talent.   Naviere Walkewicz  56:13 We love that. So maybe we'll see a line down the road of a series of Campbell drinks. Or…   Brian Campbell  56:21 …yes, yeah, I do name some of them after things at the Academy.   Naviere Walkewicz  56:25 Just so, you know, okay yeah, I guess I could ask you to share one of them, maybe one name.   Brian Campbell  56:30 Well, you know, a lot of good supporters were in the class of '75 so I changed French '75 to '75 Best Alive.   Naviere Walkewicz  56:39 Love that.   Brian Campbell  56:43 People have no idea what I'm talking about.   Naviere Walkewicz  56:45 I would want to twist to that. I would want to twist that and skip it. So that's fantastic. Thank you for sharing that well. Before we close, we really like to leave our listeners with just a couple of key leadership nuggets that you'd like them to have. What would you leave our listeners with, Brian?   Brian Campbell  57:03 Yeah, you know, I think as I look at some of the people that were on this podcast, I mean, you have some folks who are very, very accomplished and at the top of their fields, and then you have some others who are at the beginning of their careers and heading down that, that road. You know, for me, I'm probably in the middle of it. And as I look at the arc of my career, I don't think I've arrived as a leader and I, but I started to think that I probably that I would be willing to bet that General Clark might say the same thing, and Coach Calhoun might say the same thing. So, I think it's always a work in process, but I think it's important to be really authentic with people, and that has worked. It's worked well for me, especially when those decisions are consistent with being authentic to what we're trying to accomplish. And the other thing that's meant the most to me, and is just surrounding myself with the best people possible, and that has continued to help me grow and evolve, and not just the people I hire, but I think back to my time working there at the academy and how cool it is in a you know, couple year period I was around, you know, Mark Welsh and Dana born, and Jack Kucera and Paul Madera and the Brunies (SP?) and Mike Gould and these kinds of people. And that's who I had the chance to surround myself with, and I, think that that has more to do with me having other opportunities in my career to go grow and learn at a different place and hopefully be successful here as much as anything that I did. And so I think a lot about the elements that we put into it, because it's hard on a daily basis to know if you're doing a good job being a leader, but if you take those pieces of the fabric that we learned at the Academy, and you keep doing it the right way and thinking about these things and surrounding yourself by people with surrounding yourself with people of those kinds of values, and people that you can take little pieces of what they do and try to try to bring them with You. I think it's the right road.   Naviere Walkewicz  59:22 Well, Brian, it's been a pleasure. I know I've just taken away some things, and in our time together here, learning about you, but also just inspiring me thinking about how we can give and it really is a pleasure. I can't wait to see where your trajectory of your career takes you and the ways that you'll continue to make an impact.   Brian Campbell  59:39 Wow. Thank you. Naviere, it was great to be a part of it. Thank you everyone at the Association and the Foundation. I'm glad that we have a podcast. I know that there's so many efforts that are happening to connect with grads at all stages in their careers and their journey, and I just really appreciate that. Audience to be on and all the incredible work that's happening back there at our school.   Naviere Walkewicz  1:00:06 Thank you. So, we can end with the Go Falcons, right?   Brian Campbell  1:00:08 Yeah. Beat Army, sink Navy!   KEYWORDS Brian Campbell, Air Force Academy, leadership, growth, development, athletics, fundraising, University of Miami, Kucera Legacy Center, resilience, sports marketing, philanthropy       The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation        

While a cadet at the Air Force Academy, Jason Kim '99 experienced the “pedestal effect” and learned the importance of curiosity, compassion, trust and mutual respect.   SUMMARY Jason Kim, a USFA class of '99 and CEO of Firefly Aerospace, discussed his leadership journey and experiences. He emphasized the importance of curiosity, compassion, and mutual respect in leadership. Jason shared his upbringing in Richardson, Texas, and his parents' influence. He recounted his time at the Air Force Academy, highlighting the humbling experience of being among top cadets and the value of building trust. Jason detailed his career path, including roles at Boeing, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman, and his MBA from UCLA. He stressed the importance of giving back to the Air Force Academy and the Space Force.   OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "I think just being curious and being an active listener and asking questions and listening to other people, sometimes people want to vent, or sometimes people want to just be heard or have a voice, or some, most of the time, people just have good ideas." "And so I would just say, just be curious, what did I miss? Did you miss something? Did we both miss something? If you get all those great ideas and you share it amongst different people from different backgrounds and walks of life, you don't miss as much, you know, and you're just bet off better off, you'll have a better solution." "Building that trust, you know, with your your your teams, that's extremely empowering and motivating when you trust someone else, and they trust you, and you can go much, much further when you build that trust up." "We got this drilled into us, and we didn't even know at the time how important it was. But you know, building that trust, you know, with your your your teams, that's extremely empowering and motivating when you trust someone else, and they trust you, and you can go much, much further when you build that trust up." "And then the last thing I would say is, I think we were one of the first classes that had non commissioned officers alongside with AOCs that were there to teach us about mutual respect, about mutual respect between officers and non commissioned officers. And I think that went a long ways for for all of us, because, you know, once we went to the real Air Force, you know, we were going to lead a lot of officers and NCOs, and getting that kind of exposure early on was helpful, but also learning about mutual respect, that's something that is extremely important in any work setting that you're in."     SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK  |  LINKEDIN      CHAPTERS 00:00:  Introduction and Background 02:24:  Welcome to Long Leu Leadership 07:42:  Early Inspirations and Motivations 10:56:  Discovering the Air Force Academy 16:00:  Memorable Experiences at the Academy 23:26:  Leadership Lessons Learned 26:32:  Leadership: Curiosity, Compassion, and Mutual Respect 28:14:  Startup Journey: Taking Risks and Minimizing Regrets 30:07:  Leadership Lessons: MBA and Personal Growth 32:05:  Startup Experience: Joining and Growing a Company 36:18:  Family and Risk-Taking: Lessons from Parents 39:36:  Hidden Talent: Drawing and Painting 45:36:  Giving Back: Involvement with the Air Force Academy Foundation 51:30:  Impact of the Air Force Academy: Building Resilience and Confidence   TAKEAWAYS Growing up in Texas with immigrant parents instilled a strong work ethic and a desire to give back to the country in Jason Kim. Inspired by the space shuttle program and the Gulf War, Jason decided to pursue a career in the military. At the Air Force Academy, Jason experienced the pedestal effect and learned the importance of curiosity, compassion, trust, and mutual respect in leadership. Jason's academic and extracurricular experiences at the Academy helped shape his leadership skills and provided him with lifelong friendships. His parents and role models like Colonel Ellison Onizuka influenced his decision to join the Air Force and give back to the country. Curiosity, compassion, and mutual respect are essential qualities in leadership. Taking risks and minimizing regrets can lead to personal and professional growth. Giving back and supporting future generations is important. The Air Force Academy provides valuable experiences and lifelong friendships. Learning multiple languages and exploring different cultures can broaden perspectives. The Academy's challenging environment builds resilience and confidence.   ABOUT JASON KIM '99 Mr. Jason Kim '99 is a member of the Air Force Academy Foundation Board of Directors. He is also CEO for Firefly Aerospace. Jason's career includes his work in the satellite and national security space for Boeing Raytheon and Northrop Grumman. While in the Air Force, he served as a program manager for the Space Superiority Systems program and Reconnaissance Systems Program offices. He has served on the boards of the National Defense industrial Association and space enterprise consortium formation Committee. He began his Air Force career as a cadet, having graduated with a degree in electrical engineering, followed by a master's in electrical engineering from AFET and then an MBA from the University of California, Anderson School of Management.    CONNECT WITH JASON LinkedIn     ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!          SPEAKERS Guest:  Mr. Jason Kim '99  |  Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99   Naviere Walkewicz  00:01 Our guest today is Mr. Jason Kim USAFA class of '99 and a member of the Air Force Academy Foundation Board of Directors. Jason's career includes his work in the satellite and national security space for Boeing, Raytheon and Northrop Grumman. While in the Air Force, he served as a program manager for the Space Superiority Systems and Reconnaissance Systems program offices. He has served on the boards of the National Defense Industrial Association and Space Enterprise Consortium Formation Committee. He began his Air Force career as a cadet, having graduated with a degree in electrical engineering, followed by a master's in electrical engineering from AFET and then an MBA from the University of California Anderson School of Management. We'll discuss Jason's life before, during and after the Academy, and we'll ask him to share a unique talent. We'll end with his advice for those striving to become leaders and those already in leadership positions, endeavoring toward excellence. Jason, welcome to Long Blue Leadership, my friend, my classmate. Thank you for being here today.   Jason Kim  01:04 Thank you for having me, and thanks for using my call sign.   Naviere Walkewicz  01:09 You're welcome. I know we want it to catch on so everyone knows now. Well, as we do in this, this is such a wonderful opportunity for our listeners to get to know you, and we like to go back and so for us, we're talking, you know, closer to 30 something years ago, right, when you were young. Jason, tell us about what life was like before the Academy was even in your in your line of sight.   Jason Kim  01:31 So, I grew up in Richardson, Texas. It's a suburb north of Dallas, and if you've been to Dallas, it's a metropolitan city, and but it's a little bit country as well. And so yes, I grew up with cowboy boots. I grew up with a belt buckle, you know, driving a pickup truck, all those kinds of things. But I'd listen to all kinds of music. So, judging by my call sign, you know, rap music, R&B, but also some country as well. And my parents were first-generation immigrants from South Korea, and so I really saw how hard they worked, you know, learning a different language, buying a house, doing all that in their late 30s and 40s and raising three children. I'm the youngest of three boys, and so I'm very, you know, grateful for what my parents did for us three boys. My dad was an electrician on oil rigs and was in the oil and gas industry, and that's why we ended up in Texas. And I'd see him travel away for a month at a time, and then come back home for a month to places like Venezuela and United Arab Emirates and Gulf of Mexico and all kinds of places. And so, you know, I heard stories of travel and just everything he was doing. So, we'll get to this later, but he was definitely an inspiration early on for me, and he always, you know, was very grateful for being a naturalized citizen and allowing our family to grow up in the U.S. and get an education. And so, he always kind of inspired me to give back to the country, and always do good things for the community as well. And so that's where I kind of got those roots. And, you know, also being the youngest of three boys, my older brothers were seven and nine years older than me and so you can imagine I was the little kid that they would bring along to school or, you know, meeting with friends. And so, I learned the good things from them and emulated the good things, but then the bad things, the mistakes that they made, I tried to avoid that. So, I kind of got it easy watching them. And so, I owe a lot to them coaching me and mentoring me as I grew up, and then being in Texas, of course, what did I play sports in, I played football. And I would say that a lot of the leadership skills that I got early on came from football, and a lot of the work ethic came from football — the teammates, the collaboration, the strategy. Texas football is pretty legit, and so I got to watch tape, I got to lift weights, practice. All those things that Tom Brady says in his Hall of Fame speech I resonate with now, I didn't end up like Tom Brady, but I resonate with what he said, all those early mornings, waking up, you know, training, all the hard work. It really taught me a lot of good lessons. And, you know, I still kind of  have a lot of that work ethic because of, you know, playing football, and a lot of the team and collaboration came from collaborating with 10 other football players trying to score a touchdown, or keep others from scoring a touchdown. And also, a big reason why I'm a big college football fan, so I'm really happy to see your son play for the Falcons, and I'm going to be rooting for him and the rest of the Falcons, as well as my other alma mater, UCLA, so I'll be at those games as well.   Naviere Walkewicz  05:55 That is awesome. I mean, I'm almost developing a visual of young Jason and his two older brothers and his mom and dad. And what a story. I mean, I think about, you know, just first off, the confidence, resilience and grit of your parents, right? And then you're seeing this, and you're growing up in a household. So, what, as the youngest? I mean, I think, like you said, you were able to kind of see what to avoid, what pitfalls to avoid, and how to kind of navigate that. Well, when did the military kind of come into the picture? Was that something that your older brothers participated in through school? How were you introduced into that side of the world?   Jason Kim  06:32 Yeah so, I would say it kind of goes along with some inspirational people in my life. You know, growing up in Texas, the Space Shuttle program was a big deal. And I think you and I were 8 years old when the space shuttle Challenger event happened, and one of the astronauts that was a hero among all the astronauts on that mission was Col. Ellison Onizuka, and he made a career in the Air Force. He was a test pilot, graduated with his Ph.D., I believe, and became an astronaut, and really gave his life in many ways, to for science and for the Air Force. And so, seeing someone like that that also kind of looked like me was a good role model for me at an early age. And so that kind of got me interested in the Air Force and the Shuttle program. And then, you know, I think you and I remember when we're young, 1991 before we went to the Academy, you know, the Gulf War, and we saw on TV for this first time, all this shock and awe and Gen. Schwarzkopf and Colin Powell, and all the strategy that was used. The technology. You know, you heard about the second offset strategy with those F-117 Nighthawks, and all the flares that you would see that night. And it really just made an impression on me. It got me kind of excited about the military and all the technology that's involved. And also, you know, kind of got me into thinking about being a pilot someday. And again, you know, my dad always saying, “Hey, give back, Jason. You know, this country has given a lot to our family. Give back.” I kind of got that motivation to go into the military. And then, you know, I think we also had family friends that had some people that went to the academies, whether it's the Naval Academy or others, and got to learn a little bit from them what was it like to go to the Academy? And these were really good role models as well. So, I got with my liaison officer, which was a really great liaison officer, got me involved with what I needed to do to get more information. And went to the summer scientific seminar and spent a week on the campus and got to learn what it was like to be a cadet, somewhat. Yeah, it was actually fun. But, you know, meeting people, meeting the upperclassmen, and they were all super nice at the time. And I also, it turns out, I met my future roommate there, and we were, yeah, we met at the summer scientific seminar. And so, lo and behold, when I go into basic cadet training, I see him there. I'm like, “Oh my gosh, you were there at the same time as me!” So it was a really great experience, and that kind of solidified it for me that I wanted to go the Air Force Academy.   Naviere Walkewicz  09:56 So, I mean, you had some great role models to kind of facilitate some of that interest. There was a lot of things happening in the country that, you know, we both were, were very familiar with, and it created some feelings of pride and wanting to give back. Were you always thinking about the Air Force Academy because of those motivations, or were you thinking other service academies as well?   Jason Kim  10:16 I think I had my heart set on the Air Force Academy. You know, I don't know if I said before, but you know, my parents had me late, later in life, and so since I was the baby of the family, by the time I got to the age of going to college, my parents were retirement age, and I was not going to put them through what they did for my older brothers, which was room, tuition, board, and all that stuff that they had to work hard to pay for. I wanted to get a scholarship somehow. And this was a way to give back to the country, get a scholarship, get a great education. Plus, you know, I applied to all the service academies. But, you know, you'll, you'll hear this later, but I wasn't the best swimmer, so I wasn't going to go to the Naval Academy. West Point was foreign to me. I just didn't know enough about the Army, and I wanted to be a pilot. So, I thought, “Hey, the Air Force Academy is the best way to do that.”   Naviere Walkewicz  11:17 Awesome. So, you had a great ALO (pronounced AY-low and is an Academy Liaison Officer) you know, you kind of went through the process, which, in itself, is quite a process, as we remember. And so how did you find out? When did you find out you received an appointment to the Air Force Academy?   Jason Kim  11:31 That was, oh, that was, you know, I've had a lot of great moments in my life, so it's, that's reaching far back. I just remember that I was super happy. You know, it was Congressman Sam Johnson of the 3rd District of Texas that, you know, gave me the nomination. He was actually an Air Force pilot and a Vietnam POW. He since passed away. But, you know, getting a nomination from a legend like that was very much an honor. You know, I also got a senatorial nomination to go to the Naval Academy, but not knowing any better, as the 18-year-old, or whatever I was, 17-year-old, I was like, “Sorry, Senator, I'm going to the Air Force Academy. Thank you very much. I'm not going to the Naval Academy.” So I was very set on going to the Air Force Academy. I was very, very happy, because it was hard to get in. I mean, one of the challenges I had as a fairly big football player in high school was the, you know, the test that you have to physical fitness tests you have to take to get into the Air Force Academy. So, you had to do all the pull ups and the runs and all that stuff. And I had to cut weight, and it really took me waking up every morning, just going through the routine of practicing all those things, and eventually got enough confidence to pass the physical fitness test and all the other things you got to go through. So, it was very rewarding to get to the point where I got in.   Naviere Walkewicz  13:15 That is awesome. And I can see that drive, I mean, just from your family instilled in you to get to be like you said, confident, ready to go. That's no surprise at all. So, talk about at the Academy, we know a little about your roommate. You met him in summer scientific seminar. What was your Academy experience like?   Jason Kim  13:35 I remember Day 1 because there are two funny things that happened. One, somehow I got lucky, and I got paired up with a NCO, enlisted person, who I wish I remembered his name. He didn't end up staying after Basic Cadet Training, so I lost touch. But what he did for me was amazing, because he already knew the drill. He was like, “Jason, you don't know how to wear BDUs, but this is how you do it. This is how you put the blouses on.” How did I luck out? I had somebody that knew what to do and was teaching me how to do it from Day 1. So very, very much grateful to that individual. I wish I could have kept in touch with him. The second funny thing is, we all had name badges. And you know, my name badge, for some reason, it said Jun Kim. And I was like, OK, that's my last name, and it's June, I think. So it makes sense. And then everybody, all the upperclassmen, were like, “Is your name Jun Kim?” I was like, “Yes, yes, sir. My name is Kim,” and I thought it was the month. But it turns out they accidentally switched my nametag with another Cadet named Jun Kim. Yeah, and so he was wearing my Jason Kim, and so, on Day 1, you know, it was very confusing, and that got me into a lot of trouble. They're like, “Do you know…,” all the things you could think of, I was getting all those kinds of comments. And so, it was quite the memorable experience. It's like, it's hard enough being a new doolie and trying to figure it out. But then when you have those kinds of incidents, it's like, it makes it even more confusing, but it was memorable.   Naviere Walkewicz  15:33 Oh, that's awesome. I can, literally picture this.   Jason Kim  15:37 That was Day 1, and then, you know, life as a cadet. They warn you of this. They warn you of the pedestal effect, where you're in high school, you're top of your game, and top of your class and you varsity letter and all that stuff. But when you get to the Academy, oh, boy, was I humbled. I mean, there were people that were smarter than me, more athletic than me, you know, better in every way. And so, I just felt very average. And in retrospect, there's nothing wrong with that, right? But just being around 1,500 cadets, you know they just were the best of the best from wherever they were. It was very, very humbling, but also rewarding, because I got to meet people from different states. I'd go on spring break to California for the first time, because I'd make friends with people that were from Northern California or Los Angeles. So, I got to meet a lot of lifelong friends that have been my support group for my entire life, you know. And every time I get together with my friends from the Academy, it's just like it was old times. It just, it's hard to explain, but you know what I'm talking about, and…   Naviere Walkewicz  17:02 I do. It just feels like time didn't pass.   Jason Kim  17:05 That's right. Some of us, like yourself, look like you do from those days. Some of us aged a little bit differently, like myself, but yeah, it was a great experience. Now, if you remember our year — our year was the first year that had the increased level of the internet and so that got a lot of people in trouble. Because, you know, “What's this internet? What do you do with it?” What we got in trouble for in my class was we played a lot of online games, you know, in first-person kind of games. So, I remember there was a game called Quake, and it was a lot of us just playing together in our in our dorm rooms and spending a little bit too much time on that. And then I remember other video games, like Goldeneye on Nintendo, and it just sucked so much time out of our days that, in retrospect, it's like, “What were we doing?” So, I guess you could say we were kind of old-school video gamers back in the day.   Naviere Walkewicz  18:20 It's funny. I was just going to ask you, we knew that you were getting into electrical engineering. What else were you doing? So, it sounds like it wasn't football, but it was Nintendo.   Jason Kim  18:30 I really loved sports. So, I loved taking all the intramural sports and the classes like golf and tennis, and I got into rugby for a little bit, for a minute, which I really enjoyed, but it's not a very forgiving sport, so that didn't last that long. But, you know, I think just the camaraderie you get playing sports like that was fun, and I think from the academic side, you know, I did go into electrical engineering, so I did all the nerdy stuff. That's probably why we didn't cross paths. Also, you probably weren't at the robotics competitions that we were doing, because that's really nerdy. But we got into doing little Roomba robot construction before Roombas existed, and we created our own Pac Man, you know, handheld games from scratch using a box of parts and processors. And my senior design project was pretty interesting. My classmate and I decided to make a digital karaoke machine. You know, using everything we learned from electrical engineering and apply it to something fun. I just remember us just trying to make the most of it with our friends and our classmates, and trying to make it fun, because it could be a lot. I took a lot of semester credit hours my freshman year. I just remember something like 22-plus credit hours. It was just a lot, and you really needed a way to recharge. And so those were some of the ways. But of course, the skiing was amazing. You know, being so close in proximity to all the ski resorts, like Breckenridge and Copper Mountain and Vail — all those great places. So those were always fun things to do. I had my first bowl of pho in Denver.   Naviere Walkewicz  20:49 In Denver?   Jason Kim  20:52 I remember that vividly. I went to one of my first concerts, Smashing Pumpkins at the Nuggets center. And then I got to go to Red Rocks. So, there was a lot of cultural things that I got to be a part of, too.   Naviere Walkewicz  21:09 I love that. So some of the things that you expressed, and I think this is great for our listeners, because, you know, sometimes some of some of our guests have been very, I don't say tunnel vision, but there's very, like, one track they've been really dedicated to, like one aspect. You know, obviously we have to do military, academic and, you know, physical fitness, athleticism, but there's kind of one track that they really hone in on. It seems like you really kind of experienced a lot, and through all of that, I might ask, what were some of the leadership lessons you picked up and learning about yourself, because you kind of talked about that pedestal effect, right? You were really kind of high coming from high school, and then you came to the Academy, and you kind of had to rediscover yourself in a different way. And it looked like you did that. What did you learn?   Jason Kim  21:53 Yeah, so some of the leadership things that I would say, that I got exposed to — and it made me kind of think about it and much later in life, kind of reinforce it — was just to be curious. A lot of times as leaders, you can jump to conclusions but I think one technique that is very helpful, no matter what industry you're in, is just be curious. You know, when you have employees, you could hold folks accountable but be curious about it. Ask the right questions. “Is everything OK? Do you have enough support? Do you have the tools, training to do what you need to? How's your family life?” That kind of stuff. So, I think you could be very curious and compassionate and graceful in terms of leadership, and that's partly learning from good leaders, but also bad leaders that didn't do that. So, I think you got to see both sides as a cadet, and you always want to pick the good leaders and emulate the good behaviors and leave out the bad. So that's one thing I would say. You know, we got this drilled into us, and we didn't even know at the time how important it was. But building that trust with your teams — that's extremely empowering and motivating when you trust someone else, and they trust you, and you can go much, much further when you build that trust up. And then the last thing I would say is, I think we were one of the first classes that had noncommissioned officers alongside with AOCs (Air Officer Commanding) that were there to teach us about mutual respect, about mutual respect between officers and noncommissioned officers. And I think that went a long ways for all of us, because once we went to the real Air Force, we were going to lead a lot of officers and NCOs and getting that kind of exposure early on was helpful. But also learning about mutual respect — that's something that is extremely important in any work setting that you're in. So those are kind of three examples of leadership, things that I would say I remember from the Academy that are also still important today.   Naviere Walkewicz  24:35 I think that's wonderful. Maybe you'll even share an example where you saw either curiosity, compassion or mutual respect really play a role in your professional or personal life after the Academy, but before we get there, I remember you talking about wanting to maybe get into space, right? The astronaut program, be a pilot. How did that all shape out? Because you were an electrical engineer, and then what?   Jason Kim  24:58 So, I really wanted to be a pilot. And for some reason, I really liked the C-17, the Globemaster. And I think it's because it was a fly-by-wire kind of system. It was a stick, but it was like more of a commercial airline-kind of transport plane. So, it was a blend of — fighter pilots use sticks but it was still kind of an air mobility command-kind of system. But, you know, unfortunately, my eyesight, my color deficiency, just didn't allow me to go into that track. So, I really just leaned on and doubled down on my electrical engineering background and got to go to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base as my first assignment. And there I was an engineer-slash-project-manager working on uncrewed aerial vehicles before they became popular. So, things like the Global Hawk and the Predator, UAVs, those were things that I was getting exposed to, and I got to put payloads on. If you remember, in the 1999 timeframe, there were Hellfire missiles put on the Predator. I was there when that was happening. And so, it was just very, very amazing to see all that happen before my eyes. I got to work on the U2 and put payloads on the U2 and other very important missions. And I think that exposed me to the real Air Force. Even though I wasn't flying, I got exposed to assets that actually went into the theater and were very valuable. And then from there, I got assigned to L.A. Air Force Base, and finally got to live out my dream of living in Los Angeles, and was assigned to the Space Superiority Material Wing, and that's where we were acquiring satellites and ground systems to help protect our freedom in space. And so, I learned a lot about space there and ground systems. And, you know, after several years working there, I decided I wanted to go into industry. And so, I did two things. I went to a large aerospace company and became a program manager there. You know, now, in charge of designing and building these satellites. So I went part time to UCLA to get my fully employed MBA, just knowing that I wasn't going to know everything about industry. I wasn't going to know everything about how to be part of a company, and so I wanted to kind of learn more about that side of the industry by getting an MBA. Unbeknownst to me, the MBA wasn't just about company operations and finances, it was actually about leadership. And so, I got a lot of leadership lessons from my MBA program as well. So, it gave me a lot of confidence. And what I mean by that is confidence in just going with your gut, taking risks, getting into high-risk, high-reward situations. And it's because I learned about, the company financials, the underpinnings of a company. I learned about entrepreneurism, what it what it's like to start up a company or operate a company or go through different case studies of how to turn around a company. I learned a lot about accounting and how important and valuable that is. But then most of all, I learned a lot from my classmates. And there were people from the Hollywood industry or investment banking or the medical industry. So, it was really great to learn from my classmates. It got me to conference level where I was like, “Hey, what am I doing at this company? I want to take a risk and go to a startup company.” And I did. I took that leap of faith, and that's where our first, you know, joined Millennium Space Systems, which was a small startup company when it was 20 people. But it was something that I guess I go back to the Air Force Academy where, you know, there's that quote in the Eagle and Fledgling statue that says, “Man's flight through life is sustained by the power of his knowledge.” That kind of always stuck with me and it's one of those things where, when you join a startup company, and you help grow it, and eventually we sold the company to Boeing, you learn so much. I mean, I had five different hats, you know, and I had to learn about finance, program management, business development, engineering, integration and test, all that stuff, mission operations — you learn all those things by doing, and no one will ever be able to take that knowledge away. You just, you just get it for life.   Naviere Walkewicz  30:34 Wow, there's, there's so much that, I mean, you covered such a span, because I'm imagining, you know, maybe I don't want to call — maybe “gift” is not the right word, but not being able to be a pilot might have been something that opened up obviously these opportunities for you in ways that you could not have even foreseen. So, I actually wanted to go back to that really quick and just ask, how did you, how did you kind of re-change your thoughts or shape your mindset to, “OK, well, it's not that. So, what's next?” And how did you handle that? Because I think some of our listeners find themselves in situations where, “Well, if I do all these things, then it will lead to this.” But sometimes there are things outside of your control that even if you do all the things, you can't get there.   Jason Kim  31:20 Well, I think, first of all, I'll always be a fan of pilots and aviators and all these fighters and bombers and transport airplanes — I definitely bleed blue still to this day. So, I definitely appreciate all of our classmates that have sacrificed so much to fly in the Air Force and defend us. That's kind of my mindset is, “What can I do to still contribute to the mission to national security?” And so as long as that was kind of my guide-star, I was fine, because I knew that I was contributing to the mission in some way, whether it be acquiring platforms and putting payloads on those platforms to go support our classmates, or today, you know, designing and building systems and operating systems that end up helping national security. It's really the mindset of, “What can I do to help and make a difference, to help defend our country?” So that's how my mindset shifted, because it takes all of us to contribute what we each contribute to make these missions work. And so that's kind of where my head was at.   Naviere Walkewicz  32:50 I think that's fantastic advice. And there's this theme that's been woven since you talked about your parents, and I think it's this, you know, looking forward and investing in yourself and educating yourself. And so along this path, you've done those things. You're also a family man. When did that kind of come to fruition and how does your family feel about when you joining startups and taking risks and doing some of these things?   Jason Kim  33:16 It goes back to my dad. He gave me a lot of great advice when he was still around, and one of the advice was just sharing his regrets. You know, a lot of people thought he was my grandfather because he had me so late. Really,there's something to be said about that. He was very wise. He had a lot of experience in life, and he had global experience and had seen so many different hardships and overcome them. And he would always say, “Hey, I wish I would have taken, you know, that risk and left my company and joined my other co-workers to go start up that other company.” That actually happened. He had co-workers that ended up starting up a different old drilling company in Texas, and he thought it was too much risk at the time. He regrets that, because obviously those people that went over at the time they did, they did well for themselves. So he would tell me stories like that, and really all that wisdom he would just try to share with me from a young age. And it's hard to admit, but at some point in your, all of our lives, we start to realize how right our parents were sometimes, and so, you know, a lot of the risk taking that I'm doing, that I have done, stems from advice that my dad gave me. It's like, “Hey, go for it. Take the risks. Don't have those regrets.” And so, I think I have lived my life in that manner — just minimize the regrets and take some risk and take calculated risk and really be confident with yourself and double down on yourself. So, yeah, absolutely.   Naviere Walkewicz  35:12 I love that. And your family obviously doubles down on — yeah.   Jason Kim  35:16 I mean, I had kids late in life. I really enjoy spending time with my kids. That's how I recharge. You know, I've got a son that's turning 9 this month, and a daughter that turned 6 a couple months ago, and just watching them grow up and be curious and learn and ask questions and try different things out. You know, we try not to push things on our kids, and I'm the same way. I'm not trying to push anything on my kids, but I do want to give them a lot of opportunities that I wish I had, and just expose them to those opportunities, because you just never know which one takes off and which one really resonates with them. And so that's kind of my mindset right now is, “How can I give my son and daughter as many opportunities as possible so that they could figure it out on their own what they want to do,” right?   Naviere Walkewicz  36:09 Well, even the words that you used, you kind of talked about some of those lessons that you took away as a cadet, and you are seeing it in your children, with the way that they ask questions and the way that they explore. So, I think you have kind of taken those and pass it into your legacy line. I do want to ask a question, because we always find it fascinating when we learn more about our guests. So, do you have a hidden talent that you might share with our listeners?     Jason Kim  36:35 I do. I wish I could say it's something that is so fascinating. But really, it's just some something that I could — I could draw and paint really well, and it was something that I just noticed when I was very young. You know, I learned from my older brothers, and they were pretty good at it, too, but I learned at an earlier age than them, and so I've always been able to sketch and draw realistic pictures. When I was younger, drawing Lamborghinis. Because I always wanteda Lamborghini Countach. They don't make those cars in the price points that I would like, so I don't have one today. But I was always drawing things. And, you know, recently, I started painting as well, and it was crazy. I had never done oil painting before, and when I had my first child, my son, whatever got into me, I just picked up a brush and painted a picture of him, and it actually looks like him. And we did a side by side, like picture of him smiling, and the painting of him smiling. It definitely captures his essence, because I never got training or anything. And so, I would say that's my hidden talent. It was even hidden for me. And, you know, it's just amazing — just go for it. Just go do it. And that's one of the things that I would recommend to people that are wanting to go the Air Force Academy is just get out of your comfort zone and do as many things as you can early on, even before going to the Academy. You know, learn different languages. Just learn as much as you can. Learn lifetime sports. Take lessons of swimming or golf or tennis — all those kind of things. Just do as much as you can, because you'll get busy when you're at the Air Force Academy and you'll have less time to do all the things you want to do. But even when you're in industry and you're working, you don't have as much time to go do that kind of stuff. And you may not think you have a lot of time during junior high or high school, but you do, and you should take advantage of just learning as much as you can, and you'll appreciate it later in life when you go travel to Paris or travel to different places like Thailand or, you know, Japan. You know, if you learn those languages, you can explore those places even more in a way that you know is more enriching, and that gets me to that's what I want to do more of, is travel, travel globally with my family. I think that's something that I want to expose my kids to. And a lot of times you grow up in the United States and you start thinking, “Hey, there's only one way to think about stuff.” But when you travel — and I got to travel for work to Paris a couple years — it opened my eyes. It opened my eyes to a different world and how other people think and dress and go about their daily lives. I've also gotten to London recently for work, and that was eye opening as well, and been to Southeast Asia as well. So, it's just fascinating to go to this these different places and learn the cultures and talk the languages and meet the people. It's very enriching.   Naviere Walkewicz So how many languages do you speak?   Jason Kim So, I grew up learning Korean so I can speak a little bit of Korean. I obviously took Spanish because I grew up in Texas, and that Spanish is a very valuable language in Texas, even in California. And because I took Spanish, you know, when I get to the Air Force Academy, what do they do? They said, “Hey, we don't want you to take Spanish. We want you to be the handful of people that takes Arabic.” So, I got the privilege to take Arabic. I got volunteered into it, and it was very, very difficult for me, because I just had no background in it. I struggled with it. But the silver lining is that I learned about a new culture, and I learned about how to write right to left and, you know, just a new language and new foods that go along with it, too. So I really appreciated that. In hindsight, at the time I didn't think it was that easy, but in hindsight, I wish I would have done more and kept the fluency in it, because learning a different language means you can talk to a different group of people, and you can learn more or teach each other new things. So, it just opens a lot of doors.   Naviere Walkewicz  42:02 So, the experiences you've had, both from the Academy and the languages and throughout your career, both professionally as well. It's personally, what's something that you've taken back from those experiences that you might share with a listener that maybe hasn't had that kind of exposure, that they can bring to the leadership table. And how do you use that at yours?   Jason Kim  42:20 I think it just goes back to what it touched on before, is just the curiosity. Just always be curious. You know, I think Ted Lasso had it right. Just be curious, right? If you had just asked questions about, “Hey, did you throw darts when you were younger?” Oh, if you would have known that you would have known that Ted lasso was really good at darts. I think just being curious and being an active listener and asking questions and listening to other people, sometimes people want to vent, or sometimes people want to just be heard or have a voice, or, most of the time, people just have good ideas. And you know, it's all about, “Hey, did I miss something? Did you miss something? Did we both miss something?” If you get all those great ideas and you share it amongst different people from different backgrounds and walks of life, you don't miss as much and you're just better off, you'll have a better solution. And in my industry, you have a better design, you have a better result, performance result. And so, I would just say, just be curious.   Naviere Walkewicz  43:29 What did your road back to the Academy look like? You know, now you're part of a board of (USAFA) Foundation directors, and so you talked about learning from your dad and your mom, always about giving back. So, I have to think that's probably been part of was in the back of your mind. But how did that all come together?   Jason Kim  43:44 You know, I had no road map to do the job that I'm in right now. I never anticipated doing this job, and I also didn't anticipate being on the board of directors for the Air Force Academy Foundation. But I had folks reach out from, you know, the Air Force Academy Foundation, and ask me, “Hey, do you know what we do? You're a big football fan. Are you aware there's a Falcon Stadium renovation?” And I was like, “No, tell me more.” And with that first visit, I actually donated right away, I was like, “I'm on board. Sign me up. I want to donate to this because I believe in it.” You know, Falcon Stadium was where we graduated, right? It's such a memorable place. We saw a lot of football games there. And so, it means so much. So, I was all about donating to that cause. And then I would say that the second time around, when the same person came back and said, just to check up on me — he had mentioned, “Hey, there's this foundation, and they're looking for someone that has a space background, and you have a space background. So, are you interested in potentially coming to a board meeting?” When I went and attended the board meeting as a guest, I just stared around the room, and I was just in awe, because there was Paul Kaminski, who's, to me, is one of my role models in terms of all that he's done for the country and continues to do for the country. And he was on the academic committee. And so, of course, I wanted to join the academic committee. I saw Gen. Eberhardt. I saw Gen. Born, and there were just so many amazing people, Paul Madera, that I was just in awe. And, you know, from that respect, I was like, “Sign me up. I want to be a part of this.” And I saw them and how much they cared about the Academy and the cadets and making sure that the Academy kind of stayed relevant and was giving the cadets the best education that they can to compete with the Stanfords and MITs and the Harvards, I really saw a good cause, and then the fact that they were interested in my space background. I said, “Yeah, I definitely want to be part of whatever I could do to contribute to the Air Force Academy, to graduate not only people that are going to go to the Air Force, but also to the Space Force.” And so that's something I hope to contribute to is maybe someday a future space education center at the Air Force Academy, so that the cadets could get a great education and be future leaders in the Space Force as well.   Naviere Walkewicz  46:53 Well, it certainly makes a difference. And I think I remember seeing you at that first board meeting that you participated in. I was so excited to see you. That was like, oh, '99s in the house. So that was wonderful. Yes, well, I have two questions left. The first one is, really, I want to just ask you, because we've covered so much, and you've given such wonderful, I think, advice and just perspective. But is there anything that I didn't ask you that you had wanted to, you know, talk about today?   Jason Kim  47:20 You know, I think at the end of the day, going through the Air Force Academy is extremely challenging, but after you graduate, and after you go through life experiences, all the hardships, the challenges, what I've realized is going through the Academy kind of helped me overcome what I had to overcome in my adult life and in my industry life. We didn't like it at the time but breaking you down and then building you back up and making you get up back again every time you fall down, gives you life lessons and a confidence in yourself that you can kind of do anything that you put your mind to. I really believe that the Air Force Academy kind of helped me overcome a lot of different hardships in my life. You don't really realize that going through it, but later in life, I appreciate the fact that I went there and getting through there actually gave me the confidence that I could get back up and be OK and keep growing and continuously learn and get better and improve. So that's kind of something that I could attribute to the Air Force Academy.   Naviere Walkewicz  48:49 Oh, that is awesome. And, I mean, and it's obviously taken you to new heights. Leading a corporation is no small feat. So,  one of the things we really like to do is make sure we kind of hear the takeaways, from you to our listeners. So, it's really kind of a message to them. But before we do that and get your final thoughts, I just wanted to offer a note of thanks to our listeners for being here on the Long Blue Leadership. The podcast drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on all your favorite podcast apps. Be sure to send us your thoughts and comments at socialmedia@usafa.org, and listen to past episodes at longblueleadership.org  So, Jason, I want to come back to you now, because I hope that gave you a little bit of time to think about what is the message you'd like to share to our listeners. And our listeners are far and wide. We have those aspiring to go to the Academy, we have family members of cadets, and we have graduates all alike. What would you like to share when you think about kind of your experiences in the realm of leadership?   Jason Kim  49:48 To them, I think the Air Force Academy is a great place to graduate from. It's really hard to get through. So, be really proud of your sons and daughters that are going through it and persevering, and it really is a great experience for them. For those that are prospective students: You're going to get to do things that you never could do anywhere else. You know, jump out of planes fly gliders, eventually go into the Air Force or Space Force. And then for graduates, we've made so many lifelong friends, and we've made so many memories. It's something we can all do is give back, whether it's — go march back from Jacks Valley, or go to the reunion this year for our 25th reunion for the class of '99, or go to some football games. The Foundation has plenty of great, noble causes to donate to, because it's all about that Long Blue Line. We want the next set of cadets to get an even better experience in education than we did. We want to keep it going.   Naviere Walkewicz  51:12 It is always a pleasure to not only hear your voice, but today, I got to see you as well. That just brings me such joy, and I can't wait until our reunion, just in a couple of months as well. Thank you so much for your time today, Jason, it's been amazing. Lil' Kim, thank you. Bye.   KEYWORDS Jason Kim, Firefly Aerospace, Air Force Academy, immigrant parents, work ethic, space shuttle program, Gulf War, military career, pedestal effect, curiosity, compassion, trust, mutual respect, leadership, CEO, curiosity, compassion, mutual respect, electrical engineering, startup, satellites, taking risks, giving back     The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation      

A conversation with 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23, the first active duty military member to be crowned Miss America 2024, about her  background, leadership experiences, transition to Harvard Kennedy School, and key lessons on empathetic leadership and following one's passions.   SUMMARY Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh, the first active-duty military member and Miss America 2024, discussed her journey and leadership experiences. She highlighted her foundation for pancreatic cancer research, her academic achievements, and her role as a mentor at the Air Force Academy. Marsh emphasized the importance of empathetic leadership, mental health support, and balancing personal and professional life. She shared her transition from aspiring to be an astronaut to focusing on public policy and her current studies at Harvard Kennedy School. Marsh underscored the significance of passion, support from family and mentors, and the impact of diverse perspectives on leadership.   OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "Don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do yourself." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh "Your life is too short to live it for someone else or to do things that you are not passionate about." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh "I knew that if I put 100% into something I'm passionate about, the outcome and the impact that I'm gonna have is going to be far greater than forcing myself into this idea of who other people want me to be." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh "Leaning on people, whether it is your partner or a loved one, that is how you're going to succeed in life." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh "Being an empathetic leader, being a leader who goes by example. So don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do yourself." - 2nd Lieutenant Madison Marsh   SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK  |  LINKEDIN  |  INSTAGRAM     CHAPTERS 00:00:  Empathetic Leadership: The Foundation of Success 02:43:  Journey to the Air Force Academy: A Personal Story 11:33:  Overcoming Tragedy: The Power of Support 16:18:  Leadership Lessons from the Academy 28:31:  Navigating Career Changes: Finding Passion 45:02:  Key Takeaways: Empathy and Passion in Leadership     TAKEWAYS Embrace empathetic leadership - Truly understanding and supporting your team members, even when they are struggling, is crucial for effective leadership. Lead by example - As a leader, you should be willing to do anything you ask of your team and not ask them to do something you wouldn't do yourself. Follow your passions - Pursuing work and activities you are truly passionate about will lead to greater fulfillment and impact than forcing yourself into a path for others. Build a strong support network - Relying on partners, mentors, and loved ones can provide the encouragement and guidance needed to overcome challenges. Prioritize self-care - Taking time for your own mental, physical, and emotional well-being is essential to being an effective leader and avoiding burnout.     ABOUT MADISON Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh, crowned Miss America 2024, poses in a Colorado Air National Guard hanger on Buckley Space Force Base on August 7, 2024. Marsh embodies service in and out of uniform, proving that you can achieve your dreams and goals while serving in the United States Air Force.  Image Credit:  Ms. Miram Thurber, Air Force Recruiting Service Public Affairs 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh, USAFA class of '23, and Miss America 2024 is the first active-duty member of the military to hold the title.  She is also the first such title holder in 50 years for Colorado. She attained her private pilot license at the age of 16. She is a highly accomplished humanitarian, scholar and service member. After the loss of her mother in 2018 to pancreatic cancer, she established a foundation to raise funds for research to fight the disease. When she became a cadet, she excelled in her physics and astronomy studies, winning a Truman scholarship and is now pursuing her master's in public policy at Harvard Kennedy School.     CONNECT WITH MADISON Instagram:  @‌missamerica  |  @‌madiisabellaa     ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!          FULL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Guest, 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Naviere Walkewicz  00:22 My guest today is Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh, USAFA Class of 23 and newly crowned Miss America.  This is a first for an active-duty member of the military and one for the Colorado history books in that she is the first such title holder in 50 years for the Academy's home state. But there is much, much more to Lieutenant Marsh, including her attaining a private pilot's license at the age of 16. She is a highly accomplished humanitarian, scholar and service member. After the very difficult loss of her mother in 2018 to pancreatic cancer, she established a foundation to raise funds for research and to fight the disease. When she became a cadet, she excelled in physics and astronomy, earning a Truman Scholarship, and is now pursuing her Master's in Public Policy at Harvard Kennedy School. We'll talk with Lieutenant Marsh about her most meaningful and impactful experiences at the Academy in research, athletics, leadership and character development. We'll discuss her speaker role at this year's National Character and Leadership Symposium, and ask how her new role as a national speaker and influencer informs her mission and message. And finally, we'll have the lieutenant share a few takeaways on leadership and character development with you, our listeners. Lieutenant Marsh, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad to have you.   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  Thank you so much for having me. Naviere Walkewicz  Absolutely. And before we dive in, as we normally do, we'd love to know how things have been going since you've been crowned.   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  01:51 It has been very, very busy. I've been really lucky that the Air Force decided to keep me on active duty this year, because not only am I getting to serve in a uniform like this, but I'm also getting to serve in that crown and sash. And so, there's so many different experiences that I've gotten to have, whether it's a mixture of days that I'm going and promoting the military, or days that I'm doing a very different type of service. So I never know what I'm gonna' get every day that I wake up on the job. So it's been pretty cool.   Naviere Walkewicz  02:16 That is awesome. Can you share something that's really stuck out to you as just really memorable?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  02:21 So far, one of my favorite trips that we went on was Normandy for the D-Day anniversary, and I loved it because I had actually gone there last year, right after I commissioned with my fiancé, that was one of the first things we saw as officers. And now getting to go back with a year under my belt with a very different experience, I got to really see that history for like firsthand again. And I just think every time that I look at those headstones, it reminds me of what it means to put on our uniform, what our flag really means to me. And now being able to have that firsthand experience and sharing that with students across the nation, because I want people to understand what it means to serve every day, to hopefully invite people to come and join us and get excited about what service is.   Naviere Walkewicz  03:06 Oh, that's incredible. And, I mean, I think just to reiterate your commitment to service, and then to be able to see how you carry that message through history, I think is really powerful. Oh, that's amazing. I imagine that it's been a whirlwind, and you're looking forward to much more as well. Yes, does it feel like it's flown by?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  03:21 Yes, I feel, I think I have, like, four and a half months left. And I mean, every day I wake up and it's like three weeks later apparently.   Naviere Walkewicz  03:31 Well, I'm sure that to you it feels like it's flying by, but to everyone else it's a moment in time that they can really connect with you. So, your message is so powerful. We're glad that you're representing. Well, we'd love to dive into our podcast so our listeners can get to know you a little bit more and really experience leadership through your journey. So, we like to start by going into childhood. Okay, do you mind sharing a little bit about what you were like as young girl?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  03:55 Oh, let's see. I'd always loved science. Okay, so that was the big thing. I had wanted to be a paleontologist, a volcanologist. I wanted to be a scientist that lived with gorillas and studied them in the forest, which was…   Naviere Walkewicz  04:08 Was that inspired by a movie, or just…   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  04:10 I don't know where that even started from. I think I was like, that sounds cool. My parents were like, What is she talking about then? And then, kind of going more into junior high, I wanted to be a marine biologist, and because I went on submarine biology camp, that was what sparked my interest in space, so that I had a very big shift that brought me to wanting to be an astronaut, which is ultimately why I ended up at the Academy. So, there was all these little things of interest throughout science my whole life that now made me put on the uniform.   Naviere Walkewicz  04:42 So Wow, very long, weird journey to get there. Well, I'm sure it was an adventure for you and your family. Yes, are you an only child? Or do you have siblings?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  04:47 I'm one of five. So, we are a mixed family. I have three older half siblings and older brother Nick, older brother Chris, older sister Sarah. Then there's me and my younger sister, Heidi. So, big family.   Naviere Walkewicz  04:59 Yes, and they're all adventurous like you?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  05:01 I would say so. I think we're all very different, like my older brothers, they were the huge athletes in our high school. I was not as much of an athlete in high school like I still loved fitness and gym, but I was the band geek. I was the one that was on Quiz Bowl and Science Bowl. My brothers did not. They didn't have the same interest in high school but now they're loving, like, they work in the tech industry. My older sister works in the tech industry. So, I'd say all of my siblings, now that we're in our adulthood, are very focused on, like, all STEM careers. So, it's been cool.   Naviere Walkewicz  05:36 That is amazing. And I love that you mentioned, you know, being a band geek. And I think a lot of people wonder, “Can I, what does that look like down the road?” And just to embrace, I think, our passion? So, what did you play?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  05:46 So, I played clarinet and contrabass clarinet. So that's like the big six foot tall…   Naviere Walkewicz  05:52 Oh my goodness.   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  05:52 I was this tiny little kid in the ninth grade. Whenever I got to play contrabass, they have to put you on this really tall chair. And so, there's very hilarious videos of me that my family basically uses this blackmail of me playing that journey. I was so proud of it when I brought it home, my parents were like, oh, it's six feet tall. When I brought it home, they were like, “Why was Madison picked for this? She's gonna' be playing this in the house all day.” And it's this really deep, extremely loud noise. And they're like, “Okay, we thought we could deal with the clarinet, but this is, this is next level.”   Naviere Walkewicz  06:27 Well, I guess you know the good thing about that, it wasn't a drum set, right?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  06:30 That's true. There's grateful for that. Absolutely.   Naviere Walkewicz  06:34 Wow, so you all got involved in STEM. Do you have military members in your family as well that you knew? That's when you said astronaut and Air Force Academy that helped guide that for you or no?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  06:43 So my grandfather had served, but I had never met him. He passed away, I believe, either whenever I was like a newborn, or maybe a couple years prior, so that, I guess, didn't really influence my decision in the military. The biggest part of it was when I went to space camp in junior high, and I met a bunch of astronauts there. And so, after hearing story after story from them, and getting to go and do really cool experiments, like at space camp, you're building rockets, you're pretending to be an astronaut, like we did a mission to Mars where I got to be a botanist. And so, all of that really influenced my decision on how do I become an astronaut? And so, the story I kept hearing was all of them, for the most part, that I'd met were in the military. They were test pilots, they were fighter pilots. So, I started to figure out, how can I go down that path? Discovered the Air Force Academy and knew that was going to be one of the best places to getting a pilot slot, and even though I am not going down that astronaut path anymore because of those initial dreams and those aspirations that has opened up so many doors now for the rest of my career. So, it's been cool to see how it's evolved over time as I've grown up.   Naviere Walkewicz  07:46 Oh, that's amazing. And I think it's part of what you've learned in your journey is there's a bit of, like, flexibility and kind of, you know, learning along the way. So, it sounds like you did some of that even as a young girl. Okay, so how did you get into the Academy? You applied? Was it just kind of the typical application process? Did you talk to a lot of other cadets? I'm just curious what that looked like for you.   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  08:08 I think I don't know if I spoke to a ton of cadets at the beginning. I remember I used to watch on YouTube, like while I was getting ready for bed, I would watch videos of like the jump team, or different anything from the Academy. And I was like, that is where I need to be. And we have a cool thing at our school where they have an entire military day. It's like on a Saturday. So, they bring every branch. They have people that represent active duty, reserve, guard, all of the academies, enlisted officer, anything that you could think of. They have them set up all in our hallway. And I knew at that point that I wanted to go to the Academy. And so, what I did is I basically printed out all of my essays that I knew that people had had to submit in the past for the Academy. I did resumes. I came with my GPA, everything, and I walked right up to my congressman, and I handed it to him, and I said, I went to him, and I said, “I want to go to the Air Force Academy, and I want to be your nominee.” And I'm sure he was like, “Who's this?” So, I was very firm early on, and so we were able to start an incredible relationship with one another. And so, because I did that, I think that was maybe my junior year, early on in my junior year, when it came time my senior year, he fought for me all of the time to get my application in front of people, because I was his principal nominee, and we had a very, very special moment. So, he called me on October 31, and told me that I had gotten early acceptance to the Academy, and so I got to tell my mom, and the next morning, she passed away. So having an experience like that is… that's why the Academy and Congressman Womack are so special to me, because that was my dream for years, and my mom got to know before she passed away. And it's just everything happens at the right timing, and you never know until afterwards. And so now I get to be here. Now I get to wear the uniform, and even though she hasn't gotten to see it, she got to know about it. And just because of those first instances where I marched up to him and I said, like, “I want to be here.” I got to have experiences like that. And now I get to have wonderful experiences of now serving post Academy life.   Naviere Walkewicz  10:16 I think what you just shared was so powerful in multiple ways. I think the first way is, you know, really being clear and what you wanted to do and to not, you know, take a step back and accept anything, unless you walked right up to him and said, This is what I want to do. You establish yourself, I think, and then to have, I think, that moment where he did fight for you and before your mom passed, having that, I mean, I can't even… Just share thank you for sharing that with me.   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  10:45 He is also a huge part of all the scholarships and applications I've ever done. Anytime that I've ever needed someone to write me a recommendation letter. Congressman Womack has been one of the first people to do it. And I remember when I got the Truman Scholarship. I had asked them, like, what do I need to do for the because I was going to go and compete for the Rhodes and Marshall Scholarship the next year. And I was like, what were the strongest parts and what were the weakest parts of my application? And they said one of my strongest parts of my application, literally, was the letter that he wrote. They said that, like, you never get to see what they write, because they have to submit it to a portal. You're not allowed to look. And they were like, what he put in there, put everything like, pushed it far, far past the line. And I'll never know what he said, but I'm extremely grateful for him always believing in me. He actually had a really cool moment after I won Miss America this past year, he went on the floor of Congress and, like, read out all this stuff about what we had done together, being from his home district and growing up there, so it's been really cool to see how our relationship has evolved over time, because he has always supported he's such a big military promoter, and just getting to have that relationship and also use him as a mentor when times were tough at the Academy, being able to call him up and being like, I'm struggling. I know you helped me get in here, but I'm struggling right now. And he was always there to have an open mind to kind of guide me through, to make sure that I made it out at the end of the day.   Naviere Walkewicz  12:12 Wow. I think having those champions in life not only help us get through things, but help shape us that we will be champions for others in the future. Do you see that something that kind of was ingrained in you from that experience?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  12:22 Yes, I think, I mean, we were kind of talking about this earlier, about how I reflect on all of my experiences and look at the fact that I would have accomplished nothing without the people that had helped me, and I now want to be that person, even if it's only a little fraction in someone else's life to help them, because they recognize you don't go anywhere alone, you don't accomplish anything alone. And there have been countless mentors, teachers, family members, loved ones, that had poured into me, and now it's my turn to give that back to them.   Naviere Walkewicz  12:51 Amazing. So, you got into the Academy, it was a beautiful thing for you and your family, and while you were there, that's when you formed the foundation. Is that what I'm understanding from a timing perspective?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  13:03 So, I started the foundation my senior year of high school. So, my mom had passed away, and it was something that my family started literally two weeks afterwards, because watching my mom go through everything, I had recognized that we need to give something positive back to people. And a big part of just pancreatic cancer, is that educational aspect of making sure families around the nation know the signs, the warning, the warning signs, the symptoms. Because that was something that we had no clue with my mom. She was 41 years old when she was diagnosed and passed away. It was a very, very quick turnaround, and so we started it then, then I went off to the Academy. So that's something that I have fun doing on the side and learning a lot of leadership through that as well, because now we've expanded, and I lead about 20 volunteers from across the nation, and it is something that I have not done before, especially like virtually, since we have people all over. So that has been a very big learning lesson this past year, and now I'm getting to use all the cool stuff from the Academy to figure out how to lead people in and out of uniform, because that's something that has been a huge part of my life at the academy, was making sure we serve outside of this, because we have so much time. And I think at the Academy, you often feel like your life only exists inside of the black gates, but there's so much that you can do for people outside of that before you even put on the uniform every day.   Naviere Walkewicz  14:22 I think that's really powerful in sharing that because, you know, I think about your family, and first, I just want to thank you for sharing that difficult time. Because, you know, listeners, we have all different experiences in life, and you know, we all experience, at times, some kind of tragedy. And I think sharing how you found a way you and your family to work through that, and, like you said, kind of provide a perspective for others. You know, maybe if I could just touch on that, and we can, we can move forward while you're at the cadet, when you're a cadet. But can you just touch on, you know, how might you suggest someone find a way to get through some tragedy, maybe through a lens of leadership? Or if they're helping others that are experiencing tragedy.   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  15:03 I think there were two really big parts for me. One of them was knowing when to ask for help. That is something that I talk about in academics, and that is something that I also talk about in personal life, because I wouldn't have been able to make it through the Academy had I not received help. So, one of the things that I did whenever I went through basic like I tried to quit on the first day because I was really struggling with obviously, the Academy is difficult and grieving at the same time. So, one of the things that I did to ensure that I would stay was I started seeing a therapist up on the hill. I saw chaplains all the time. I continued that through most of my freshman year, well into covid when I got sent home in 2020 because I knew that there was no way I could be able to lead in the classroom, in uniform, be there for my friends if I couldn't help myself first. So that is the first big step. It is takes a lot of courage and strength to receive help, and I think that is something, a stigma,that we're all having to overcome and change the narrative surrounding the conversation of mental health, you are strong if you get help, and everyone around you is here to help you, and I think as a friend, also being inviting, being conscious of the types of conversations about when other people that you don't know are having to receive help. Because there were definitely times that people had said about me like, “Oh, Madison's just trying to get out of training,” or, you know, you hear things like that. And so I knew that when I became a sophomore, that whoever I was leading, the one freshman that I was going to be in charge of, I could always be a safe space for them and ensuring that anytime, if they needed to go see chaplain, no questions asked, I would be there to walk them to and from the chaplain, whatever anybody needed, because I understand that that sort of help can be life-saving, and we have to be able to invite those sorts of conversations in and allow people to receive the help that they need. And I think that kind of follows throughout the entire culture of your squadron or Air Force wide, and it starts with one person, one leader, being inviting and accepting of those that need help.   Naviere Walkewicz  17:02 That's so powerful, and I'm so glad that you shared that, because I do think sometimes people might think asking for help is weak, or if I just hide it, then no one knows. But I think you're right. Courage is asking for help and receiving it, and that one person like you said you champion someone else, they will do that. So, you just created this train effect of, you know, support, and I think that's really powerful. So, while you're a cadet, you know, you had amazing experiences, I'm sure. Let's talk about what leadership roles you had as a cadet, aside from being, I think, what do they call them now? So, when you are a three-degree and you have a four-degree, you're called like a coach. Okay, so could you talk about that role a little bit? So that's fairly newer…   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  17:45 Yes, it's pretty interesting. So, you go from being a freshman, which is very much so learning how to follow others, into you are assigned a freshman as soon as you hit your sophomore year. So, you'll have a cadet that has just come out of basic, and they're assigned to you, and that might be, I mean, that's many different things, like you're doing the obvious things like feedback with them, that's required. But it goes beyond that, if you make it so, because everything is a leadership opportunity Academy, if you pour into it so that could be, you know, meetings with them to check up, like, “Hey, how's school going?” Or if they're falling behind in school, like, “Let's create a plan to ensure that you pass your classes,” or, “Let's create a plan to ensure that you are going above and beyond and excelling in these areas.” You have those sorts of conversations with them, and I believe you are their protector against the upperclassmen, because obviously the freshmen, like the upperclassmen, duties are to be hard on them so that they become a better person at the end of their year. But as a sophomore, I had always taken as this is my person to protect and lead, because you're the closest first line supervisor to them. So that's how I took the position of if they needed help, if they had gotten in trouble, having those conversations with them to get them back on track, or maybe they're having some difficulty working with some upperclassmen to try to talk that through with them, to make sure our squadron was still meshing with one another. So that is the intention of the role. And you can go as little as just feedback with them, or you can do a lot. And then you also switch at the second semester, so you'll have a new freshman to lead on the back half of the year. Okay, it depends on the squadrons. Sometimes they strategically place you together, like, let's say a freshman said during basic, “I really struggle with academics,” and they knew that academics was my strong suit. We might get linked together so that they have someone that is guiding them, because they know they're going to struggle with that as soon as the school year starts. So, linking up people's weaknesses to their strengths is a big part of it.       Naviere Walkewicz  19:44 That makes sense. I'm glad you shared that, because I think, you know, not all of us are familiar with that, that kind of program now, and I think the term coach is really appropriate. You know, that actually makes sense, and it helps, actually, I think, inform how you can really, like you said, and embrace that role. And what I think is also a theme with you, Lieutenant Marsh, is, you know, you don't do anything just to do it. And you know you do it because you put your whole self into it. And so, while you're a cadet, maybe talk about what were some of the other things that you experienced from a leadership perspective, from peer leadership, because you know, you had the opportunity to help those you said, as you know, four-degree under you. But what about peers and up? Did you see any leadership you experienced in those realms?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  20:29 Gosh, there are so many leadership stories that I could touch on. I think one that really stands out in my mind was General Clark, who was our superintendent my time at the Academy. And I remember my sophomore year was covid gear, so we had right before recognition, or the night of recognition. My freshman year, we got sent home. I didn't return until the Fall semester. For my sophomore year, that semester was very tough because we were basically locked down. You couldn't leave. You couldn't really go see your family, and that sort of, you know, being contained in those black gates actually, literally, this time was very hard. And I remember there was a time period for at least five weeks when we were kind of stuck in your dorm, and it sucked, to say the least, but the thing that General Clark did was he was not going to ask us to do something as a leader that he was not willing to do himself. So instead of staying home with his family or going out, he came on base almost every night. He was bringing us food from Chick Fil A, Crumbl Cookie, anything that you could think of. He was doing all the cadet things like the, oh my gosh, what's it called when you pour the water?   Naviere Walkewicz  21:38 Oh my gosh, the carrier land, carrier landing, carrier landings, with cadets.   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  21:45 That was fantastic. I mean, awesome. And then there was a night, I believe, that he set up a cot in a spare room and stayed over with the cadets. And it's leadership like that that had shown me, don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do. There's going to be times that are extremely tough, and I'm excited to be in an opportunity where I get to lead more people after this year's Miss America, and after I finish up my degree is it situations like that where you can make such an impact and show that as a leader, you are not better than the people that you are leading. You are right there, going with it, alongside them. And General Clark showed that to us from day one, and he is a leader I'm always going to remember and look up to and that was just one of the many stories that he showed that to us.   Naviere Walkewicz  22:25 And it sounds like that, leading by example is something that you also carry with you in your style and how you want to be seen as a leader. Yes, yes. I think that's wonderful. Let's talk a little bit about you know, you said that you've always enjoyed academics and stem so at the Academy, I understand there's an Academic Success Center. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because that's not something I'm as familiar with.   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  22:48 So, under the Academic Success Center, there are, I believe, two portions of it. So, there's the Quantitative Reasoning Center and the Public Speaking Lab. And I used those all the time, sometimes daily for all four years at the Academy. So, the Quantitative Reasoning Center, they also have a writing lab underneath that, which I also used. So, they will help you with anything from uh, calc one problems to maybe engineering, or maybe you need help writing an essay, or you're not understanding your English class, or you need to help, like prep for public speaking, whatever it might be. So, I went down there all the time because my biggest thing is asking for help early and often. These are free resources that they provide.   Naviere Walkewicz  23:32 Does every cadet from E.I., from extra instruction? Or is it part of is extra instruction with your… it's kind of the same?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  23:37 Okay, so E.I. is with your instructor. Specifically, this is like a place down underneath the comms tower, where it's an entire wing, where people just sit there all day, and you go online and you make an appointment with them for 30 minutes, and they will be assigned to you to go through your essay with you. Or, “I really cannot get this problem on my assignment. Can you help me with it?” So, if your teacher isn't available, you can go there. It is incredible, because if you are falling behind, there's no reason you can't go to the Academic Success Center, because they have people that stay, I think, until like, eight o'clock at night. And they start, I want to, I mean, I it depends on the people, but I know that some of them started like earlier in the school day, like you could go at noon. So, let's say you have an off period, and you're an IC so you can't go after school. You could go during the day if you have time, or even later that night. So, there's so many opportunities to receive help, and I knew that if I was gonna' go be a Truman Scholar or try to go to grad school, I needed to go 110% in all of my classes, and I couldn't do by myself. I'm not some genius guru who just understood everything. That was not how I was as a student, I did well because I got help from people that knew a lot more than me, and I tried to learn from them, and especially in English classes and history, writing is not my most favorite thing. Yeah, so I had people that did love writing that helped me, and then I think the public speaking lab is also one that is an underutilized resource for cadets. I hear a lot of people that go and use the QRC, but never the Public Speaking Lab. So I used the PSL for anything from pageant prep, whether they were watching my talent or we were going through 100 different political questions and they were grilling me on them, or I'm preparing for a scholarship interview, and how are they going to grill me on my entire life, or my stances on particular things, or my plans, anything that you could think of. They're there for a speech for your class or a presentation for a class. If you struggle with being in front of an audience, they are there to help you, and it's free. And I can tell you right now, I cannot think of many other colleges that have resources like we do, and I remember my dad telling me as a freshman, when I had told him about the Academic Success Center, he was like, “You better be going there every single day, because I can guarantee your older siblings did not have that type of opportunity,” because we have such a small environment compared to some of these big schools across the US. You get really close with your teachers, and you have the opportunity to get really close to all the people at the Academic Success Center. And that is how you go far at the Academy, and you do well. So every Cadet needs to visit there, at least at one point, because I know everyone is not strong in every area.   Naviere Walkewicz  26:21 Well, guess what I'm going to be telling my sons about, if you haven't, and it's for all classes. All classes, excellent. And I can assure all of our listeners, as you can also hear and see yourself, that the PSL, the public speaking lab, has been phenomenal for you.   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  26:37 I love it because I think public speaking is such an important part of being an officer, being able to get up and be in a crowd briefing to very important people, those skills that you learn as a cadet are going to carry with you for the rest of your career. So, start on them early and often, so you're not freaked out the first time you're on active duty and someone very important walks in the room and you're having to talk to them.   Naviere Walkewicz  26:59 Exactly, exactly the low threat.   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  27:00 Get over with the low threat stuff. Now, in the safe spaces, we always talk about safe spaces.   Naviere Walkewicz  27:02 I love that. So, let's talk about life after the Academy. Well before we go there, when you were getting your career drops and all of that, what was, what were you hoping for? We shifted from astronauts, so where did, where did you go?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  27:19 So, I actually ended up being awarded pilot as my AFSE. But one of the things that I had kind of recognized my senior year was that I was not passionate about going the astronaut route anymore, which meant I didn't want to go to grad school for physics, and I really wanted to focus more on policy and pancreatic cancer, which is why I ended up at the Harvard Kennedy School. So, I made the decision over this last year to not go to pilot training anymore, because I've recognized this entire job as Miss America, there are so many opportunities and jobs in the Air Force to do your job well. And I knew that I was not 100% passionate about the pilot career path anymore, but I could be 100% passionate about something else in the Air Force, which is going to make me do so much better at that job for the people around me. So, I'm changing my job now, and I'm very excited about it. My fiancé is still going to UPT right now, and I love getting to support him and watching that, and now moving into this new phase of my life where I'm going to get to experience another job in the Air Force.   Naviere Walkewicz  28:19 So, we have listeners that, you know, find themselves in a path, and they feel, “I might, be stuck here.” Now, talk a little bit about making that decision, and how can you encourage others? I think the key word you used is, “I can do more because I'm passionate about something,” but maybe talk our listeners through how you felt this was the right decision, and at that time.   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  28:41 I did not come to it overnight, that is for sure. I think it took me probably two and a half years to really, finally be comfortable with it. And I think a thing that I struggled with was fear of people judging me because I was stepping away from this big dream of becoming an astronaut, which I can tell everyone right now, nobody cared whenever I stopped doing that, and that was something I was so fearful of. I thought everyone was going to be like, “Oh, she's not doing this big thing anymore. She's not going to do anything.” And that is not what happened when I started. I remember being in scholarship interviews, and one of the things that I'd received in feedback was it sounds like you're just being robotic, talking about this plan to becoming an astronaut, but when I hear you talk about pancreatic cancer, you light up, and those are the best points in your interview. And so, then that made me think. I was like, “Oh, okay, that's kind of odd that they say that I probably should think about that more,” because I thought I was really passionate about this, and my fiancé had kind of sat me down and was like, “We should, like, discuss this. Like, if you're really having second thoughts about it, because you shouldn't be forcing yourself into a career path to make other people happy.” And I remember my dad had called me after this conversation that kind of started, and he was like, “Listen, just because you told your mom you wanted to go astronaut doesn't mean that you need to do it to, like, fulfill the thing that you told her you were going to do.” He's like, “Your mom and everyone else does not care what career you end up in. All they care about is that you're doing something that makes you happy.” And through the loss of my mom, I had recognized every life is very short. Do not waste it on things you don't care about. Do not waste it on things you're not passionate about, because you're not going to do good at them. Like that's just not that's just not how you work. That's not how I work. I know that if I put 100% into something I'm passionate about, the outcome and the impact that I'm gonna' have is going to be far greater than forcing myself into this idea of who other people want me to be, and that's why I ultimately made that change. And there were a lot of tears at first. There was a lot of second guessing, and I don't think it was really until this January, after I had started, I started interviewing a lot of people on different career paths, like I had spoken to a lot of pilots and asking them what their life was like. And it wasn't until I had interviewed them and also people that are in this profession that I thought I could be really passionate about. That's what really put it over the edge. And I felt very comfortable then with my decision of I am okay, walking away from this old dream because it's no longer my current one, and that's okay. Everyone grows up, everything changes, and that's life, and accept that. And I think because I went 110% on this astronaut path, it opened up the doors to do anything else afterwards. Just because I went down this path for eight years does not mean that I was stuck in it. Since I had worked so hard, I had opened up every single opportunity, like going to Harvard, that has now changed the trajectory of my career and my life.   Naviere Walkewicz  31:38 So, Lieutenant Marsh, I have to just say, even sitting here in the room, I'm inspired. I know our listeners are feeling this as well. Talk about how going to Harvard, Kennedy School. What is your vision for how this will impact and where it will take your foundation, or what does this look like to you after?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  31:56 I think a really cool thing about the fact that the Academy will send you right to grad school afterwards, is because you have so many opportunities to learn from people that are not military and a very different leadership orientation than we might have ever experienced at USAFA or in just the general Air Force. And that's been really cool. I mean, going to Harvard, we are a very small minority of military members that are there, and I'm getting to meet people from all across the globe. Over 60% of our program are international students, really, which is fascinating. Yeah, I'm getting to learn so much about their countries, their government, which I think is extremely applicable to the way that we work in the Air Force, because we are going to be having to work with a lot of these countries, and now I'm getting a deeper understanding of their perspective, their perspective on leadership, so I think that'll be really cool to see how it's going to impact my Air Force career. But my favorite part of it is the fact that it's allowed me to be really flexible, and what I focus on in public policy, my biggest thing has been pancreatic cancer. So how can I take my experience with the loss of my mom and my understanding of medicine and science now put into policy to ensure patients are receiving the best care so they are not going through what my mom went through? And another cool experience that this reminds me of is how I was talking about astronaut to now pancreatic cancer, because I went down physics instead of having to do a conventional physics project my senior year, because I went so hard in that major I was then able to do an artificial intelligence research on pancreatic cancer, wow, and apply like medical scans X-rays to the way that we detect pancreatic cancer in patients. So, it's little things like that that have opened up doors, and now I've gotten to take that research from the Academy, put that into what I'm studying at Harvard. So just so many different ways that you can apply, reapply and change across your life. So that's I'll be excited to see where I get to use it, I think, way down the road, whether I'm in the Air Force or not being able to serve my community with that degree in the leadership that I'm getting to learn there.   Naviere Walkewicz  34:04 I can't wait to see what you have, I mean, just in the short amount of time, the impact and drive that you have. I mean, it's kind of it blows us away. So, it's really impressive. I wanted to go back to something you mentioned about the different perspectives from the other you know, cultures and countries, especially on leadership. Was there anything particular that you took away or that surprised you, or that kind of resonated with you from some of the people you've met?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  34:29 Gosh, there are just so many times, I think one of the things that I love doing was just, I love picking people's brains. Yes, so we had, like, a house about 30 minutes away from Harvard, and what I would do, or try to do, at least once a month, is we'd have everyone bring their food from their country, and we'd have a huge spread, and everyone would just sit down and talk about their lives. And there was this one girl named Paulina that I was good friends with, and she was from Israel, and so getting to hear her perspective, because they have a very different way of military service, because it is, I think it's required for them after they turn 18. And her perspective on why that is important to their country, and comparing it now to how the US is most like, is volunteer based, and the differences in that. And so, I think that was really cool to hear from her, because it's very different than what we do here. And I mean, there are just so many students. One of them, he was a student that had lived in China almost his whole life. I think he left when he was 14 or 16 for school or work, ended up living in Canada for a long time, and now was back in the US and hearing his entire family's take on covid or military operations or their actual thoughts on America was very different, because it is not what you get to hear every day in mainstream media, because it's someone that actually lived there. So, it was every moment that you get to have there is very fascinating if you're asking the right questions and talking to the right people…   Naviere Walkewicz  35:57 Especially if you're open to listening.  I have to ask, what did you bring for your food dish?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  36:01 I made a, what was it, green chili chicken soup.   Naviere Walkewicz  36:08 Of that sounds yummy.   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  36:09 Yes. I like a little spicy soup. But it was nice. I was very full that night. I think I have a whole spread of like a table that was 10 feet long, just covered in everyone.   Naviere Walkewicz  36:19 Oh, my goodness. Well, I'm a foodie myself, so I can appreciate that, and I would have probably partaken a little bit of everything too. So, we'd like to know, what do you your time is so busy? What do you do to what I would call like, manage your health, your balance in life? What does that look like for you?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  36:36 I was really terrible at it my freshman year at the Academy, and so I had to learn very fast to make sure I was on the right track. So, freshman year, I was struggling with grief. Obviously, the Academy is very busy, and I gave zero time back to myself ever. It was, I would get up at 6am and I was studying until midnight, and that's what I did every day. I never took Saturdays or Sundays off. I'd just go, go, go. And I think that took a very big toll on my mental health, my social life. And it wasn't until my fiancé Walker was like, “You are going to leave this place and throw up your hat and you're going to have no memories outside of your textbooks.” And I was like, “That is a terrifying thought, because you're totally right. You're 100% right. I have not poured into any of the other outside opportunities.”, and so I started doing very small things, like reading 10 pages of a book every night. That is what I forced myself to start doing sophomore year that slowly grew into, and not a textbook, not a textbook, a fun book that slowly started growing into going to the gym, making sure I have a full Saturday off to be with my friends and family, and so now that I'm having this very busy schedule, I do the same thing. I carry this very large planner around in my bag that goes down to 30 minutes, and I'm planning out every single part of my day. So, if I need to plan when I'm calling my family that goes on there, if I'm planning times to go to the gym that's on there, reading a book, anything that you could think of. That is how I stay replenished mentally. Because I know if I can't be giving that time back to myself, I can't go out and meet people and travel all the time, because everyone has their limits, and I've really had to figure out where mine are over the past couple of years and be very strict with myself to ensure that I don't pass them.   Naviere Walkewicz  38:20 I love that because you can't pour from an empty cup. What's the most recent fun thing you've read?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  38:28 Okay, it's this book called Quitting a Life Strategy, and it is about basically the entire social dynamic on why we look down upon people that quit things, and why that is wrong, and it just meant a lot to me after changing career paths and recognizing that quitting is not a bad word, it's not a negative word. It is a redirection in your life, and it applies to relationships, friendships, jobs, volunteer opportunities, whatever it might be. And it was all of these anecdotes about people that had hated their job and had decided to make a change and are now doing something drastically different and are exponentially more happy, and it just made me feel very certain about the path that I was on, and also more empathetic to people outside of never judging people because they're leaving a certain situation of thinking, the only person that really knows what they're going through is them. And at the end of the day, someone else's life and their decisions don't impact you, so support them. There's no reason to be negative revolving around someone else's life or your own. Just allow people to live life, do their own things. And that is exactly what that book exemplified for me.   Naviere Walkewicz  39:40 I love that. In fact, you make me want to read that.   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  39:43 It's great title again, Quitting a Life Strategy.   Naviere Walkewicz  39:46 I love that. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, so Lieutenant Marsh, one of the things that our listeners love to know, and you obviously have many talents, because you have competed in in them as well for Miss America, but what's something hidden? Or maybe something special about you that you'd be willing to share with some of our listeners?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  40:07 Oh geez. I don't know if I have, like, a hidden talent, per se. Okay, I will, okay, this is funny. Going back to the band thing earlier, okay, every time I'm home on holiday, I break out my clarinet and I try to relearn the music and play, and it really irritates my entire family, because I'm not good anymore. I'm not good anymore at all, and they're all like someone take that away from her right now. And this last time I tried playing flute for a little bit, I did not catch on to it as easily as clarinet, and I was home for Christmas, or maybe it was some other time with my fiancé and me, and he had the flu, and I had the clarinet, we were walking around the house playing it together, and they were like, “We have to deal with two of them now, instead of just one.”   Naviere Walkewicz  40:48 I love so, that's fantastic. Thank you for sharing this. And I think what's so great, some of the things that you've shared throughout this, well, one, they've been golden. I mean, just amazing leadership lessons. But I think one of the things that has been really special is you talk about your fiancé and that support you've had with him. Maybe just share with our listeners the importance of having kind of a partner or a support network. What did that what does that look like for you? You seem like you lean on him. Does he lean on you? Or is it able to be shared?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  41:18 Yes, he is. I mean, I would not be able to do this year's Miss America, or really anything without his support, because if you can imagine, I'm traveling all the time, he's going through UPT and is extremely busy. And it's because of our dedication to each other that we're able to come back at the end of each day, calling each other, making life plans, being honest about how we're feeling. And I think that honesty and the ability to lean on each other makes it so much easier to get through everything. And I remember like I talked about earlier my freshman year, I tried to leave multiple times. I tried to leave on the first day basic, my dad told me, “You can quit, but you can't come home to our house.” So I stayed. I wanted to leave after basic, and I decided to stick it out my freshman year. And it wasn't until that Spring semester freshman year, where I had found people like walker or Dr. Anderson or different professors and mentors that I had had that made me want to stay and like I said earlier, you don't go anywhere alone, or at least, you don't go far by yourself. And so, leaning on people, whether it is your partner or a loved one, that is how you're going to succeed in life, and I've had to learn heavily on how can I be there for these people when I'm at 100% because there are definitely days when I'm at home, maybe I'm not traveling as much for Miss America in the Air Force. And Walker had just the worst, most difficult, long week, like he's having this week, lots of tests, lots of Sims, and I get to be there for him, to support him at the end of it. And it's that give and take and understanding that, above all else, we are number one to each other, and that's something that we talk about it a lot, especially when it comes to career planning. For me, our number one is ensuring that we get to be together. Everything else is secondary, because I know I can't go 100% in my job if I don't have my partner there with me, and he feels the same, and so trying to plan life out in a way that always puts us as the priority no matter what. So, he's been very special. And I think you can also get that outside of a partnership, whether that is someone that is your mentor or a family member or a friend, right?   Naviere Walkewicz  43:20 I think that was a key kind of takeaway that you shared there about first making sure you know what your priorities are, and then staying true to them. So, Lieutenant Marsh, there's two more things we have in this one, and I'll give you a little precursor: I'm going to ask you if there's anything that we didn't talk about there. I didn't ask you that you want to make sure that our listeners have a chance to hear and then the second thing is, we're gonna' have kind of those, those few key takeaways that you really want them to kind of indulge in from your perspective. So maybe with the first one, is there anything I didn't ask you that you wanted to chat about today?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  43:54 I feel like this is gonna' go into the leadership piece of it. And I just think it is so important to be an empathetic leader, kind of tying back into the mental health I had heard a story once about someone who had someone underneath them that they were leading, and they kept saying that, “Oh, this person's getting in trouble. They're not showing up to meetings. They just don't care. They are just a bad Airman.” When their supervisor had actually sat down and spoken to them, they had actually admitted that they were struggling a lot with depression and needed help, and it takes one person to sit down and have that very like quick conversation of just asking how people are every day and being genuine about it that could change someone's life, and ensuring that you know there are probably going to be people that you're going to lead, that are going to mess up, but be there for them, lead them, be empathetic and make sure that your people are okay. That is your duty as a leader, and that is something from that story I had learned, and now I have to take through the rest of my career to be cognizant of what my people are going through. Maybe they're struggling something with their family. Maybe they're struggling. With something personally, maybe like me, they need help figuring out their rest of their life and their career, and it's just things like that where you can make such an impact on people if you make the time to have those conversations with them, and that is being an empathetic leader, above all else, can really help your people go far, because if you're not focusing on them, they're not going to feel attached to the work that you all do together. But if you can be unified and stick up for one another, you can do so, so much more.   Naviere Walkewicz  45:29 Oh man, it's always about the people, right? It's always and I think what you said was really key, and that was asking the question, versus either, you know, just kind of going in and directing, but being really open to listen so well. So now, Lieutenant Marsh, because I know everyone is hanging on to hear what you might leave them with, what really is, what guides you in leadership, and what are the few things that you'd like our listeners to kind of take away?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  46:15 I would say, going back to earlier, being an empathetic leader, being a leader who goes by example. So don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do yourself. And I think those are the two biggest things that I look for. And I've gained at the Academy and now post Academy life, because I'm always looking for things in leadership that I want to take away and things that I don't. And those are the two biggest things that I want to carry in my little toolbox for the rest of my career. And another important personal piece, whether it applies to your job, personal life, family life, whatever it might be, is always doing something that you love. Your life is too short to live it for someone else or to do things that you are not passionate about. If you are passionate, you're going to go so much further and you're going to be happy. That is the only thing that you can really take away from life, is the happiness that one you provided yourself and you can give to other people, and you can only do that if you're doing work that is worthwhile to you. So keeping that in mind, no matter the strife that you might go through or potential changes that you're going to go through in your career and your life, is holding that near and dear to your heart.   Naviere Walkewicz  47:21 So, this has been an absolute pleasure to just spend this time with you. Lieutenant Marsh, I have to ask, as a graduate and the graduate community, you know, I've enjoyed listening to your story, what can we do to continue to support you?   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  47:34 I think the biggest thing that all AOG can do and long blue line is really just being there for the cadets, because it is conversations like this, opportunities to talk on a podcast like this that maybe cadets can listen to, or being mentors for them. That's what helps them get through it, and that's how we create great leaders, is by pouring back into our community where we came from. I know we talked about that earlier off camera. That's the biggest thing for me, looking at the people that gave back to me, and now that I'm a grad, just loving to be a part of this, to give back to the people that are now coming up and are going to be following behind us.   Naviere Walkewicz  48:07 Thank you for being such an outstanding I think, leader, influencer, and we can't wait to share in this journey with you.   2nd Lt. Madison Marsh '23  Thank you.   Naviere Walkewicz  Thanks for your time.   KEYWORDS People, cadet, Academy, leadership, pancreatic cancer, freshman, Academic Success Center, astronaut, family, sharing, empathy, empathetic, experience, lieutenant, cool, listeners, Marsh, passionate, learn           The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation      

Brig. Gen. Gavin Marks '96 discusses the absolute importance of standards and integrity in leadership, and how a new, more rigorous approach at the Academy will build that in to cadets making them Day-1 leaders. SUMMARY Brigadier General Gavin P. Marks, Commandant of the Air Force Academy, shares his journey from being a young man in Atlanta, Georgia to becoming a pilot and eventually serving as the Commandant. He discusses his experiences at the Air Force Academy, including basic cadet training and the challenges he faced. General Marks emphasizes the importance of perseverance, leaning on support networks, and maintaining high standards in leadership. He also reflects on the impact of the Academy on his personal and professional development. General Gavin Marks reflects on his personal journey and the impact of his wife on his military career. He discusses the importance of being adaptable and humble as a leader and the unique responsibilities of command. He shares his decision to return to the Air Force Academy and the changes he is implementing to better prepare cadets for the challenges of great power competition. General Marks emphasizes the love and passion that the leaders at the Academy have for developing future officers and encourages listeners to continue dreaming big.   OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "How you do anything is how you do everything." "There's always somebody better." "I want to make sure that they feel like they got their money's worth from a military development perspective or military training perspective."  "The leaders at the Air Force Academy, from top to bottom, love deeply, deeply love the institution, and are incredibly passionate about the development of these young men and women into officers in the Air Force and the Space Force." "Continue to dream big. Don't let anyone dissuade you from goals that you have. And as it relates specifically to the Air Force Academy, it is absolutely worth it."   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN  |  FACEBOOK   CHAPTERS 00:00:  Introduction and Background 01:53:  Returning to the Air Force Academy 02:52:  Young Gavin Marks: Childhood and Calling to Serve 07:04:  Challenges and Growth in Basic Cadet Training 08:29:  Lessons in Leadership and Perseverance 11:45:  Choosing the Air Force Academy and Pilot Training 15:06:  Reflections on the Academy's Impact 20:52:  Leadership Experiences as a Cadet 23:43:  Lessons in Leadership and Perception 27:55:  Successes and Career Progression 32:35:  Meeting His Wife and Reflecting on Tinker Air Force Base 37:25:  Personal Journey and the Impact of Relationships 57:54:  Changes in the Life of a Cadet 01:05:48:  Challenges and Partnerships 01:09:39:  Rigor and Expectations 01:11:09:  Love and Passion for Developing Future Officers 01:12:34:  The Value and Worth of Attending the Air Force Academy   TAKEAWAYS The importance of perseverance, resilience, and grit in overcoming challenges, especially during difficult experiences like the Air Force Academy. The value of having a strong support network, including family and friends, to help navigate challenging times. The significance of leadership roles and experiences during the Air Force Academy in shaping one's development and future success. The Air Force Academy's focus on evolving its training and development methods to better prepare cadets for the challenges of great power competition. The deep passion and commitment of the Air Force Academy's leadership in developing leaders of character who are ready to serve their country.   ABOUT GEN. MARKS BRIG. GEN. MARKS' BIO Brigadier General Gavin P. Marks is the Commandant of Cadets, U.S. Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs, Colorado. He commands the 4,300-member Cadet Wing and more than 200 Air Force and civilian personnel. He guides military, leadership, character development, Basic Cadet Training and Expeditionary Skills Training for the Air Force Cadet Wing in addition to providing facilities and logistical support.  Brig. Gen. Marks earned his commission from the U.S. Air Force Academy in 1996 and his pilot wings from Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training at Columbus Air Force Base, Mississippi, in 1998. Brig. Gen. Marks has served as a T-1A instructor pilot (at both the undergraduate and graduate training levels) and flight examiner, an E-3B/C instructor pilot and flight examiner, an Air Force Intern, a staff officer on multiple joint staffs, and has commanded at the squadron and wing levels.  Prior to his current assignment, he served as the Director, Electromagnetic Spectrum Superiority, Headquarters U.S. Air Force, Washington, D.C.   Brig. Gen. Marks is a command pilot with more than 3,400 flying hours in the T-3, T-37, T-1A, E-3B/C/G, RC-135S/U/V, TC-135W, OC-135B, and WC-135C aircraft.   - Copy credit:  AF.MIL   CONNECT WITH GEN. MARKS INSTAGRAM: @‌USAFACOMMANDANT     ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!          FULL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Guest:  Brig. Gen. Gavin P. Marks '96  |  Host:  Naviere Walkewicz '99   Naviere Walkewicz 00:01 My guest today is Brig. Gen. Gavin P. Marks, USAFA Class of '96, and currently serving as the commandant of the Air Force Academy. This is his third command position since becoming a member of the Air Force. Gen. Marks was drawn to service as a young man in Atlanta, Georgia, and joined the Junior ROTC program in high school before coming to the Academy in 1992. After he graduated, he became a pilot and flew for 26 years, in addition to continuing his personal and professional development. In 2000, Gen. Marks graduated with distinction from Squadron Officer School at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama. In 2015, he again graduated with distinction from the National War College at Fort McNair in Washington, D.C. He has held command positions at the squadron and wing levels. His attachment to the Academy has remained strong, so much so that 20 years ago, he committed to returning and had been working his way back to USAFA when he was called to service, assuming his role as commandant in 2023. Gen. Marks, it is a pleasure. Welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Thank you for being here.   Brig. Gen. Marks 01:03 Thank you very much. It is an honor for me to be here. It really is.   Naviere Walkewicz 01:07 This is an exciting time for us, because especially for me, being a Class of 1999 — “Gold will shine” — I had to get that in there. We go back to Arnold Hall in Basic Cadet Training, when you were the commandant of cadets during Basic Cadet Training for us. So I remember you vividly as your taps from your shoes hit the floor in Arnold Hall. So this is truly a pleasure, sir, thank you.   Brig. Gen. Marks 01:29 It is absolutely surreal to be back, and especially during this period that we're in right now during Basic Cadet Training, and as I interact with basic cadets and the cadre, it's hard not to reminisce about that time. It's hard not to share stories as well. I'm careful that I don't inundate the cadets with my stories of when I was the Basic Cadet Training commander. But it's just it's absolutely wonderful to be back here. Yeah, really is.   Naviere Walkewicz 01:53 Well, we'll get to hear some of those, I think, you know, from your perspective, back then, and also, more recently, as we weave through this podcast. But really excited. And where we like to start is when we go back to young Gavin Marks. So Gen. Marks, tell us about what you were like as a child.   Brig. Gen. Marks 02:08 My mother would tell you that I was precocious, that I was inquisitive. I was very, very talkative as well. So I have an older brother, and we are the sons of two parents that have been married for 55 years, and that's important, because 55 years is a long time, and it taught me the value of being committed. It also taught me the value of what love really looks like, up close and personal as well. I'm from Atlanta, Georgia, as you mentioned, so I'm a product of the South. I am a product of public schools, Baptist churches and Southern upbringing. So, I love sweet tea. I love this disgusting candy called Sugar Babies. And just about anything that you think of with regard to the South, you could probably say that that's pretty accurate as it relates to me and my personality as well. I call everyone ma'am and sir, regardless of rank, just based on my upbringing as well. I really would tell you that I got a calling to serve in the military by virtue of JROTC. I followed my brother into JROTC. We went to different high schools, and he enjoyed it, but it just wasn't his calling. I got involved in it and knew immediately that it was something that I wanted to do. I love shining my shoes. I love shining the brass belt buckle that I had on my trousers. I love marching. I love drill. I did Color Guard. I did Drill Team. It was wonderful for me. It was, I think, the thing that was missing in my life in terms of knowing what my niche was going to be. And so, my professor at that time in that particular JROTC program, I think he saw something in me, and he was the first one to actually bring up a military service academy. Prior to that point, I hadn't heard of anything about West Point or Annapolis or the Air Force Academy at all. And so, I took a trip with my father and we went out to all three and I can't swim, and so Annapolis was pretty difficult for me to wrap my mind around. West Point was too gray. You know, this is a 17-year-old at the time, or a 16-year-old at the time thinking these things. It's like, “Wow, this was really gray and dreary.” No offense to West Point. And then I got to the Air Force Academy, and I remember stepping off the plane and again, coming from Atlanta, Georgia, to see the snow-capped mountains, to immediately be able to feel the difference in the air, I knew that this was the place that I wanted to be. And so, I told my dad right then, as we stepped off the plane, I said, “This is it.” And he said, “What do you know about this place? You haven't even gone here yet.” But I knew, and the rest, as they say, is history.   Naviere Walkewicz 04:48 Wow. So, neither your parents served and your brother was the first kind of introduction to Junior ROTC. What was that like growing up without having that, in Atlanta, not having that military, I guess, presence around you, and you said that's what you learned was missing. But what kind of got you to that point?   Brig. Gen. Marks 05:08 So, I would say, just to be clear, so dad did not have a career in the military, but my father and my uncle both were drafted in Vietnam, and so to that extent, what I would say is, while there wasn't discussions or a lot of military impact in my household, I think, more than anything else, just through watching television, et cetera, there was something about the discipline. There was something about the professionalism. There was something about how revered those that are in service to their nation were in this country that really drew me to the profession of arms. It was just something about the fact that this is a career field. This is a profession that is extremely highly regarded across all facets of life, and I wanted to be a part of it.   Naviere Walkewicz 06:03 So, as a young man in public school, did you find yourself drawn to things, like, I started to think about programs that were like discipline-based, like taekwondo or sports in that manner. Did you have some of those experiences as young man?   Brig. Gen. Marks 06:16 I played — I ran track, following after my brother. My brother thrived in track and field. I followed him, and I absolutely loathed it. I was not athletically inclined, and try as I might, you know, I work out and I try to stay in good shape, but I would not call myself necessarily an athlete of the highest order by any stretch. And so that absolutely was an albatross around my neck coming to the Air Force Academy, especially during basic training, especially during Jacks Valley.   Naviere Walkewicz 06:52 Well, let's talk about that a little bit. Was there a specific instance in Jacks Valley where — because I feel like now you might be able to run circles around some of us.   Brig. Gen. Marks 07:01 Well, I will tell you — so, what I remember a lot about Jacks Valley, I remember the power-line runs. And back then we had the M1 Garand, 11, 12 pounds and we carried it everywhere. And it was heavy. You know, 12 pounds doesn't seem like it's heavy, but it's heavy when you're at port arms, and you're running for miles and miles on end, and the altitude, obviously, is vastly different. Jacks Valley is very dusty. You know, “Jacks Hack” is a thing. And so, all of those things, in aggregate, really caused me a lot of trouble. And so, what I remember is thinking often “I'm not going to make this. This is not going to happen for me,” in terms of graduating out of basic training, because I am falling behind in my runs, et cetera, et cetera. But I made it. I made it.   Naviere Walkewicz 07:56 I love that. And I think for some of our listeners, the key thing, even just in that one was, you know, you didn't give up. You recognized you just had to keep working at it, and you got through it. And you're now serving as a commandant of cadets. So, I feel like there's definitely a story here that talks about you and your grit and your perseverance and everything throughout these years.   Brig. Gen. Marks 08:15 The thing that I took from the Air Force Academy experience probably more than anything else — and there are several things that I took from it — is that this is a an incredibly difficult journey that is made better if you think about it from the perspective of just taking one step at a time every single day. Just show up, just show up, just be present, and that's 80% of it. If you just keep showing up, you are going to be OK. And so that was my mentality: They were going to have to kick me out. I was not going to self-eliminate at all. And so, no matter how slowly I ran back, then they were going to have to kick me out and I was going to keep showing up. The other thing is, I would say this: I had tremendous teammates. Our squad, well, in Jacks Valley, our flight, which became our squadron — we were so close, even back then. And if one of us was falling behind, “Come on, Gavin, let's go. Pick it up.” And that really helped a lot, because you didn't want to let your teammates down.   Naviere Walkewicz 09:22 So, we got a little glimpse of Jacks. So I'm just gonna' dial it back just real quick, back to the point where you said to your dad, “This is it. This is where I'm going.” So, what was that journey like from Junior ROTC to getting into the Academy? Because I think a lot of people want to know what that looked like for you.   Brig. Gen. Marks 09:38 So, I knew that from probably my junior year in high school that I wanted to go into the Air Force or to into the military. I didn't know which branch to be perfectly clear. So I applied to all three service academies. I applied to The Citadel and I applied to VMI and to Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. Those are all of the ones that I could think of at the time, and the visits helped a lot to crystallize in my mind what I wanted to do. But what really also helped was this fascination with flying. Originally, I wanted to be an astronaut, a dentist, a doctor, an actor, and so many different things when you're growing up, but the idea of flying was really at the forefront of my mind as well. I also knew I wanted to lead. And so, combining those two desires, it made sense to go to the Air Force Academy. And again, I couldn't swim. I tried as much as I possibly could to learn how to swim through the YMCA, et cetera. I'm a product of basic swimming at the Air Force Academy — twice. If I'm being completely candid with you and your listeners, if I could have swam at the time, it is likely that I would have gone to Annapolis, and it is likely that I would have been a Marine, because that is much more, at least in my thinking back then, in line with my personality. Because I am — I will just say the military pillar of the Air Force Academy was, as the young people would say, that's my jam, for sure.   Naviere Walkewicz 11:15 I can see that. While I appreciate that, I can see that. We're so glad that we were able to get you here at the Air Force Academy. So, let's talk about your time at the Academy. You wanted to be an astronaut. You turn the dials toward pilot. Let's talk about what that experience looked like.   Brig. Gen. Marks 11:30 So, the Academy was very, very challenging. What made it challenging primarily was the balance of so many requirements, and that's on purpose. It is rigorous on purpose because the profession of arms requires it, and the nation needs it, it deserves it. I wasn't prepared for it. High school — I wouldn't say high school came easy for me. I would say I did well in high school, and I did well in high school by virtue of cramming and by virtue of instincts. So, I came to the Air Force Academy not really knowing how to study. I didn't know how to prioritize tasks or manage tasks well at all. And the Academy humbled me tremendously.   Naviere Walkewicz Can you share a story about that?   Brig. Gen. Marks Oh, well, I would say this, and the dean, who I know has also been on the Long Blue Leadership podcast as well, she would cringe. So, I never got an F, I'm proud to say, but I certainly am on the team of Ds. I received a D in Aero, and, if I recall, Astro, civil engineering when we had that as a core as well. And that was an incredibly humbling experience for me, because prior to that point, I had never had anything in my career lower than a C in high school or anything like that. And so that kind of thing makes you think, “What am I doing wrong here?” And as you are engaged in that type of introspection, you're still having to get ready for the PFT, and you're still having to get ready for this chemistry test, and you're still having to shine your shoes and get ready for this knowledge test, et cetera, et cetera. And so it was just in my mind, based on my training to that point, not enough time in the day for the reflection that I needed in order to make some changes to my habit pattern. And you're just trying to survive, and you're just showing up every day, one step at a time. So that made it very difficult: the inability for me to study, to not know how to study, the prioritization of tasks. I loved the military piece, and I probably spent more time on that than I should have spent on other things.   My roommates would often comment on the fact that I would be shining my shoes for hours, and I would bypass the need to study until the last minute, until the test came. And that didn't work out very well for me. The other thing I would tell you is this: I wouldn't say that I got homesick, but it was a long way from home. It really was, and so going home really helped to fill my cup back up in terms of just being able to reacclimate with my family and those that were around me — extended family, church, friends, et cetera. It was a long way from home.   I developed a lot of great friends in my squadron. We were in the same squadron all four years, Way of Life committee, gospel choir at the time as well. And then this team of friends that I had on the Cadet Honor Guard as well. What an interesting year that was on the Cadet Honor Guard. But we became incredibly close, and they're still close to this day.   Naviere Walkewicz 14:47 So, I'd like to talk more about the Honor Guard, but before we get there, I think it's important for people to understand that when you find yourself in those tough situations in life and in experiences, how did you pull yourself out of that? You know, you obviously got through. So, something had to change. How did you maneuver that?   Brig. Gen. Marks 15:06 So, I will start by saying this: I talked to my parents a lot, and their support was incredibly helpful for me. They approached it from a different perspective. You know, I learned a lot of great things from both of my parents: hard work, my father's work ethic, my mother and unconditional love and what that truly means. And so, when I'm talking to my parents about the rigors of the Academy experience, my mom would say, “You know, baby you can just quit and come on home and go to Georgia Tech. It's right around the corner, and we'd love to have you, and you don't need this.” And my dad would say, “You better not quit. If you come home, it's for Christmas and you're going back.” And reflecting on both of those comments, my mother was basically saying, “No matter what, we're gonna' love you.” My dad was saying, “No matter what, you can do this, I know you can do it.” And the amalgamation of those emotions and those messages really helped me a lot. It let me know that no matter what, I have support, but I also have the confidence of my parents as well, that leaning on friends is — the friend groups that I talked about as well was really important. And then to a large extent, I would say this: The ability to dig deep inside and pull yourself up even when you are struggling, or even when you are faltering, to be able to show up the next day is really, really important, that grit, that resilience — the thing that we preach to our cadets about now we try to instill in them through the rigors of the Academy experience. It's really important. It's not only important at the Air Force Academy, it's important throughout life, because life obviously throws so many different curveballs your way, right?   Naviere Walkewicz 17:11 I appreciate that you shared that leaning into your support network, not only for their love and their confidence in you, but also it sounds like there was a bit of asking for help and what that was, and so I think that's important for people to hear too. While you are having to pull yourself up, there's no shame in asking for help along the way.   Brig. Gen. Marks 17:27 Not at all. And I would tell you, my mother has so many letters at home and letters that I don't even remember writing during my time at the Air Force Academy, where I was explaining to her different things that were going on that would bring a smile to my face now, because I would be shocked that I would have said these things to my mother or my father in terms of what was taking place and the help that I perhaps needed at the time.   Naviere Walkewicz 17:53 That's great perspective. So, you mentioned Honor Guard, and what an incredible year. I was not part of Honor Guard, but I did appreciate how they helped us stay militarily ready. What was that journey like for you?   Brig. Gen. Marks 18:08 Hard. It was very, very difficult. What I would say is this: So the Cadet Honor Guard attracted me because of the discipline that they had, that they have because of what they represented for the institution as well. These were the cadets that in every formation, carried our nation's flag. These were the cadets that were held up as the example of what a good uniform looked like and what military professionals should strive to look like and resemble and the precision with which they drilled was incredibly impressive to me. And so, when they had an opportunity to showcase what they were about to the fourth-class cadets at the time, so that we could show interest in different clubs, et cetera…   Naviere Walkewicz 19:02 Because you had to try out for honor guard. Is that correct, sir?   Brig. Gen. Marks 19:06 I'm trying to think if I would call it a try-out.   Naviere Walkewicz That's probably not the right word.   Brig. Gen. Marks I think it's probably one of the greatest examples that I can talk to about just showing up, which is to say, “Come one, come all, and there's going to be a lot of physical activity, a lot of running, a lot of drill work, et cetera, all meant to condition you and build your endurance for challenging times when you're in formation, and bad weather and things of that nature, because you know, when you're carrying the nation's flag, it's a no-fail mission, and you can't drop it. And it doesn't matter that it's 20 degrees and 50 knots of wind, you can't drop it.” And so how do I build that into you: the importance of what you're doing means to not only this institution, not only to the Cadet Wing, but to the nation as well? It was a grueling year. It was a hard year. And so I think we started probably with 70-ish fourth-class cadets, and our team ended up at the conclusion at about 16. And that was our team, and that was the team that we carried forth throughout the remainder of our time at the Air Force Academy. And again, I still stay in touch with them to this day. It was a fantastic group of people.   Naviere Walkewicz 20:35 That's incredible. So aside from Honor Guard and some of the time that you spent as a cadet, let's talk about your leadership as a cadet, because you've had multiple positions of leadership.   Brig. Gen. Marks 20:47 So, the two that resonate most with me right now, and that I gained a tremendous amount from — the summer leading into my two-degree year I was the Basic Cadet Training group training non-commissioned officer. That's a mouthful, and so the privilege of being able to, and I'm gonna' use air quotes, “greet” every new appointee as they arrived on the bus to the base of the ramp was given to me, and it was quite an honor. And so, I got to get on the bus and welcome every single basic cadet in the Class of 1998. I will never forget that. And then the next summer, I was the Basic Cadet Training commander, like you were talking about in your earlier comments,   Naviere Walkewicz I definitely recall that.   Brig. Gen. Marks I had a lot of fun, and beyond the fun that you have as cadre during Basic Cadet Training, I had a lot of fun in this regard. As the training NCO, seeing the progress, the development of the basic cadets from I-day, or from that first day of basic training, until the Acceptance Day Parade, if you will, or until we handed them off to the Jacks Valley cadre was something that I really appreciated, because it was very, very noticeable: the changes in drill, the changes in customs and courtesies, the changes in uniform wear, the changes in Mitchell Hall decorum, the changes in how they kept their rooms, et cetera. It was noticeable. And I really appreciated being able to see the fruit of the labor of the cadre. As the BCT commander in so much that you can learn executive-level leadership as a cadet, it taught me a lot about that. So this is the first time that I had an opportunity to conduct my own staff meetings, to build my own staff, to chart a vision, to set objectives, to hold accountable. It taught me a tremendous amount beyond the fun and the great memories of walking across the stage with my taps on during the Fourth of July at A-Hall, which I absolutely still remember to this day, I absolutely remember to this day. But both of those experiences are indelible for me at this point. And I talked to the BCT cadre about them now, because I want them to know that this time that they have is so precious, precious not only because of the memories that they're going to make, but precious because of the impact that they're going to have on these basic cadets. They will remember them forever. They will remember them forever.   Naviere Walkewicz 23:30 Truth. So, I think one of the things that is so unique about that: You said, it was the first time you had the experience of conducting kind of your own operations, or what that looked like, the battle rhythm, the vision. I think a lot of our listeners, you know, they look at you, you're a general, you've been a leader. You know all this. What are some of the things you learned about yourself in that experience that maybe you would share just some lessons in leadership in the early parts of your leadership journey?   Brig. Gen. Marks 23:55 So, I learned very early on, probably as a three degree, that standards really, really matter. It crystallized for me as a probably a three degree, and it just continued to resonate throughout the rest of my career that standards matter greatly in our profession, and perhaps across all walks of life. They matter because of the fact that if we allow someone to not be questioned about meeting standards, we will likely allow further deterioration down the road and erosion down the road, which could lead to catastrophic occurrences. And I've seen it in numerous instances, whether we're talking about accidents, aircraft accidents, whether we're talking about units that have toxic cultures. Because oftentimes it starts with the breadcrumbs that you can walk back to the erosion of standards. There's a line that I love in John Wick. I'm a big John Wick fan. The fourth movie, the bad guy, I don't remember his name, said that his father used to tell him, “How you do anything is how you do everything.” And that is so powerful to me. It is so incredibly powerful. “How you do anything is how you do everything.” I believe that. I truly, truly do. And I learned that for the really, for the first time, as a three degree. I would also tell you perception matters. And I learned that as a firstie as well. How you conduct yourself — as Patton would say, “You're always on parade.” It's important. And if your staff thinks that you are cutting corners here or showing favoritism there, whether that's true or not, it's their reality, and they are going to respond based on how they view their reality, how they view the world in that context. And so, I as a firstie through the experience of the BCT group commander, began to truly pay attention to what perceptions I was perhaps enabling. How about I put it that way? Those are two that come to mind in terms of lessons in leadership that I learned here at the Air Force Academy. When I talk about the idea of building a staff and running a staff meeting, they seem minor. Building the staff was important because it was at that time that I realized that while I may have some things that I'm pretty good at, there are a lot of things that I'm not, and I want to surround myself with people that are good in those areas that I'm not. And so I was very, very deliberate in who I surrounded myself with from a BCT group staff perspective. And then I would also say it's important to, especially when you walk into a group for the first time, to know what you're going to say, to have an agenda for how you want to run things. Because that first impression when you walk in as the leader, as the boss, as the commander, et cetera, it's gonna matter. It is absolutely gonna matter, and you will never have another opportunity to make a good first impression. And so, I could go on and on. I learned a lot from my experiences here in leadership at the Air Force Academy.     Naviere Walkewicz Those are excellent examples.     Brig. Gen. Marks That's why I wanted to come back. While I understood what standards meant and the importance of them as a three degree, I didn't fully put together the impact that the Academy had on me until I was a captain. Leaving here, probably like you and others, I drove away as fast as I could.   Naviere Walkewicz The rear-view mirror…   Brig. Gen. Marks Absolutely, and I told myself that I would never be back here.   Naviere Walkewicz Really?   Brig. Gen. Marks I really did at that time, because enough time hadn't passed to allow me to reconcile all of the wonderful things that had taken place in my development during that four-year period. And it wasn't until I was a captain that I realized that who I was as a function of the Air Force was in large part due to the development that I had received at the Air Force Academy. I credit my parents as well, for sure, but the Air Force Academy, for sure, had a lot to do with that, and I wanted to give that back to other cadets.   Naviere Walkewicz 29:03 Was that in a moment of reflection that you realized that, or was that — did something happen where you were like, “Wow, that's something that I kind of took from the Academy.”? How did you come to that realization?   Brig. Gen. Marks 29:15 I was having — a lot of positive things occurred to me in my career. At that point, I was having a lot of successes, and at some point, I thought about the fact that while certainly I am truly blessed, and certainly there is some luck that plays into that as well, I at some point, through introspection, just kind of look back on the journey that I had gone through from being the knucklehead kid from Atlanta, Georgia, to being this captain in the Air Force, and the metamorphosis that occurred and how that happened. And, so I can only attribute it — some of that, again, is the development over time, when your parents are teaching you things and instilling values and virtue into you, and at the time, when you're a know-it-all teenager, you don't think that it's sinking in, but it does, and it shapes you over time. So, some of it's that, but some of it was the Academy itself. I will tell you this: So, there was a program that I participated in as a junior, I guess, in high school, where I got to come to the Academy for an overnight visit. And I stayed with a cadet, and what I remember about that is this: So I think I stayed two nights. But the first night I went to a pay phone to call a friend, and there was a $20 bill at the top of the pay phone. And so, I went back to the room to tell the cadet, “Hey, somebody left some money there,” and he said, “Don't worry about it. Whoever left it, they'll remember that they left it there, and they'll come back and get it.” And I was bewildered. I was like, I don't understand how that's possible. OK, so the next night, I went to the same pay phone, and it was still there. And I was blown away, and I never forgot that, that this is a place where honor really, really matters. And certainly my parents have integrity, and certainly they, you know, preached and instilled those types of values, but here at the United States Air Force Academy, it was practiced every single day, and it was visibly discernible to me throughout all facets of the Academy experience that undergirding these, you know, push-ups that I was doing and this chemistry test that I was taking, et cetera, was this honor code and these core values that all of us together share. And I just absolutely love that. Reflecting on that over the course of seven years changed my life, truly, for the better.   Naviere Walkewicz 32:15 Thank you for sharing that story. And I actually got chill bumps just thinking about, well, I mean, but you're, right now, you can't think about a lot of places where you can leave something and it's probably still going to be there, or if it was identifiable, it would probably been returned. So, I think that is something we can be so proud of. So, you mentioned, sir, some of your successes. They were kind of, you know, happening outside of the Academy once you'd graduated. Let's talk about what your career looked like and what those successes were.   Brig. Gen. Marks 32:50 So, I was a casual lieutenant. And I guess the claim to fame that I have is that I was Gen. Lorenz's casual lieutenant. So Gen. Lorenz was the commandant immediately after I graduated, went on to become a four-star general, and he is still incredibly active here in the Academy community, and being his casual lieutenant, specifically, his special projects officer, was enlightening in a lot of different ways. Gen. Lorenz is a great leader. He's a unique leader as well. And I learned a lot from being in his space, being in his presence, and seeing how he conducted business. Interestingly enough, when you walk up to the office spaces of the Cadet Wing where my office is, in the hallway is a display of all the previous commandants and their biographies. That was one of my projects as a lieutenant, believe it or not, a long, long, long, long time ago. And so, it gave me an opportunity to be able to research all of the previous commandants to that point and see the commonalities between them as well. So I did that for a little less than a year, and then I went to pilot training. Pilot training was hard. Pilot training was very, very hard. In fact, I came back, if I recall correctly, either in the middle of pilot training or just as I was graduating to talk to the Cadet Wing, the Class of 1998 — one of the classes, '98 or '99 — invited me back to talk at M5.   Naviere Walkewicz I'd like to say it was us.   Brig. Gen. Marks I would like to say it was you all too.   Naviere Walkewicz Can I claim it?   Brig. Gen. Marks And you all gave me the bird, and it was wonderful, and I still have that bird in my office to this day. And I talked about how hard pilot training was, but maybe you'll remember this. I listed the top five hardest things that I've ever done in my life to that point, and I can't remember — I remember No. 1, but I can't remember the exact order, but it was something along the lines of the four-degree year, the entire cadet experience, pilot training, SERE at the time, and my four-degree Honor Guard experience was No. 1 for sure. But all of that to say, just being able to come back to the Academy was a tremendous honor, especially for this silly second, actually, I was a first lieutenant at the time. So went to pilot training and then was selected to be able to stay at pilot training and be an instructor. I went from Columbus to Vance Air Force Base and did that for three years in the T-1, which I absolutely loved. The T-1, that aircraft was probably, if I had the resources, if I was well healed, I would buy myself a T-1 and if I could afford the maintenance. I absolutely love flying that plane and enjoyed my time in AETC. And really, there's nothing special about me. When you enjoy what you're doing and feel like you have a passion for it, oftentimes you're going to do well. I think that's that holds true for just about anybody. I did pretty well in the T-1. After that, I went to an internship at the Pentagon, and so I was there on 9/11 and I got my master's in D.C., left there. After that, I went to Tinker Air Force Base. I did not want to go fly AWACS, and I love AWACS now, but I did not at the time. And I remember when I drove up to the gate for the first time after my year in D.C., and the Security Forces airmen that saw me at the gate asked me, “Are you OK?” just based on the, luckily, based on the look on my face after driving cross country. But what was special about Tinker is that that is where I truly learned, as I would call it, meat-and-potatoes flying, stick-and-rudder flying, no kidding, no thrills and frills. In the AWACS aircraft, you've got to know how to move that jet where you need it to move. You've got to know how to compensate for the aerodynamics of the roto-dome when you're refueling, you've got to know how to fly. And I so it was very enjoyable in that regard, and just being operational was enjoyable. Tinker, though, what I will always credit Tinker for is this: Tinker is where I met my wife.   Naviere Walkewicz 37:15 So I was gonna' ask when the magic happened.   Brig. Gen. Marks 37:19 Yeah, it happened at Tinker. We met through a mutual friend and so, interestingly enough, I always say that the two best decisions I ever made in my entire life, I show on my left and my right hand: my wedding ring on my left, my class ring on my right. Best decisions I've ever made for myself. My wife is retired Air Force 23 years, and she was a first lieutenant, I was a captain. We met through a mutual friend and became friends, and over time, over a period of about a year and a half, we started dating. I asked her to marry me after another year and a half or so, probably a little longer than I should have waited. So, I arrived in 2002, we were married in 2005.   Naviere Walkewicz 37:59 Was her uniform better than yours, sir.   Brig. Gen. Marks 38:05 Oh, goodness, no. So my wife, she will listen to this. My wife would tell you that she has had a wonderful 23-year Air Force journey. Started off with 13 years enlisted time and went to OTS, et cetera. My wife would tell you that I am, I think the term is, I am very “ate up” in terms of the military. Hopefully your listeners know what that means.   Naviere Walkewicz 38:32 Yes.   Brig. Gen. Marks She was not, at all. Not at all. That was not her personality.   Naviere Walkewicz They say opposites attract.   Brig. Gen. Marks 38:35 But I think really, more than anything, what I loved about her, beyond her candor and her honesty, was her compassion as well, her intellect, her ability to be able to see the world in a different way than I saw it — for us to respect each other's opinions about different things, for her difference of a net of opinion, but how she viewed the Air Force and her journey through the Air Force differently than I viewed mine. But we respected each other's nonetheless. And my wife is the reason why I'm still serving and I say that because of this, if my wife was not still in love with this Air Force journey, I would have stopped. I absolutely would have, because being married — and our family is, I hate to say it, is more important to me, truly it is. And so, I would have absolutely stopped. But she loves it. I loathe PCSing. Can't stand it. I'm in a great career field, but my wife loves it, loves the excitement, loves thinking about what's next. And so as long as she's enjoying it, I'm enjoying it too. Yeah, she's my best friend, my best friend for sure. So, we met after that, got married. Fast forward, I left Tinker and went to a Staff assignment in Suffolk, Virginia, stayed there for about three years, went back to the T-1 as a director of operations, a commander in the 99th of Tuskegee Airmen heritage. Then I went to National War College, went to Staff, went back to Tinker, 10 years as the vice wing commander, Offut as the wing commander, back to Staff again, and then here as the commandant.   Naviere Walkewicz 40:32 So, when did the idea trickle back to the mind of, “I want to get back to the Academy?” How did that come into play? Was that just a natural progression of your career? Or how? How does one navigate that?   Brig. Gen. Marks 40:43 So, it was at the time this realization that it had changed me so much and so positively. How can I be a part of another person's just incredible admiration for the experience and appreciation for the experience that they had while they were here? And so, I started investigating becoming an AOC, because at the time, that was where my status in life was in terms of rank, and was the most appropriate, if you will. It just didn't work out for me in terms of the timing.   Naviere Walkewicz 41:24 So, you'd already been looking throughout your career to come back.   Brig. Gen. Marks 41:27 At different points in my career, so about the seven-year point is when I said, “No, I would really like to go back and give back.” And now it's a function of trying to maneuver the timing and all of the other facets that make up an assignment and career progression to try to see how that could work. As an Air Force intern, that counted as my in-residence intermediate developmental education. And so, because of that, I was fast-tracked to staff immediately. And so, timing just didn't work in terms of that intermediate level, getting back to the Academy and making a difference. And so, the next opportunity for me was as a lieutenant colonel, because at that time, our group commanders were group AOCs and they were lieutenant colonels, the opportunity didn't present itself and command of a flying squadron did, and so I absolutely jumped on that with both feet. The idea kind of was off in the back portions of my brain after graduating from command and it didn't come back into the forefront until I got back to the Pentagon because I view the Pentagon as most people do. You know, it's a necessary evil. There is tremendous virtuous work that takes place at the Pentagon. It really is. And I certainly don't mean to poo-poo it. Staff work is important. It's necessary. I wanted to get back into, no kidding, base, desperately. And it had been 27 years-ish to that point. I'd come back for coronavirus. I was working for Gen. Brown and for Secretary Kim. I came back for corona and that was one of the first times that I had been back. And I knew I had to get back here. And interestingly enough, I brought my check to Doolittle Hall. I wanted to be a life member, and I had my $800 check in my pocket. My wife gave me permission, and I was like, “I'm ready.” And I'll never forget this. I don't remember who I talked to, but she said, “Hey, if you wait just a few more months, it'll be free for everybody.”   Naviere Walkewicz Membership for all graduates!   Brig. Gen. Marks I was like, “Sweet!” And then she happened to look at my ring, and she's like, “You got a chip on your ring. Why don't you hand that over to us? Your buying this ring came with a lifetime warranty.” And I was like, “This is unbelievable. This is like, divine intervention. I gotta get back to this place. I love it.” Yeah, I'm so happy to be back here.   Naviere Walkewicz 44:18 That is wonderful. So maybe before we go into arriving back here, kind of some of the surge of what that experience was like — what were some of the leadership nuggets, or the leaders that you worked either under with as peers, those you learned from that worked under you, that you kind of continued to evolve yourself as a leader. What were some of those that shaped you?   Brig. Gen. Marks 44:39 So, I think I will start with my time at Tinker as a flight commander. I think one of the things that I learned then was the importance of being credible in an operational flying squadron. Yeah. Your worth is, especially in a flying squadron, especially as a CGO, your worth is in how well you fly, speaking for pilots in that career field. And so, when you fast forward that to now, what I tell junior officers is this, “As a CGO, your No. 1 objective, your sole objective, is to be a master of your craft. Nothing else really matters. Being a master at your craft is the recipe for success, and if you are not able to do that, it is going to be difficult for you.” So, I learned that at Tinker Air Force Base, I would say, fast forwarding a little bit further to some of my Staff assignments, I would imagine, one of the reasons why I have never been incredibly fond of Staff is because I have — there has never been a good fit for me in terms of the staff assignments that I've been in. I could argue maybe the last one was perhaps, but where I'm going is this: It taught me the need to be able to be adaptable to learn as you go, to be open to learning, and to be humble enough to ask a lot of questions. And I think that that's a tremendous leadership trait to have, to humble yourself to your team, to come in and say, “I don't know everything. I don't know all that you all are doing.” Your stories even, “Please help me to understand. Please teach me.” So Staff, for all of the pains at times, really has developed me to have a better appreciation for that. I would tell you in command, “Oh, my goodness, command is all I ever want to do,” which is both naive and probably a very elementary way of thinking about things I just love command, and command has taught me so much.   Naviere Walkewicz 47:16 What do you love about command?   Brig. Gen. Marks 47:20 So, command is special because there isn't really, not really. There isn't period another position in the military where you are statutorily and regulatorily responsible for mission and people, nothing else. There is no other position in the Department of Defense military like command and to — especially at the unit level, the squadron level — to have such an immediate impact on mission like you are able to, as a squadron commander, and have such a positive impact, direct impact on airmen's lives. It is so incredibly fulfilling. And as you progress and command at higher levels, the direct impact on individuals lives lessens, but the direct impact on mission grows exponentially. I absolutely, not only that, but as you command at higher levels. While the impact, and I probably should have said it this way, the impact that you would have on so many individual airmen's lives' lessons, the impact that you can have on an individual airman's life magnifies based on rank. It is significant also. And I always — one of the things that I tell people all the time is the… it's an oversimplification, but the only reason to have rank is to do good, is to do good things, to make things happen in a positive way that affect positively mission and benefit airmen's lives. That's it. That's all. And if it if rank becomes something different than that for you, you are in the wrong business, or we've given it to the wrong person, if I'm being honest with you.   Naviere Walkewicz 49:11 Thank you for sharing that. So how did you find out that you — how did it work to become the commandant of cadets? Is that something that you're selected for? How did you find out?   Brig. Gen. Marks 49:23 So, I — well for your listeners, there's a dream sheet, if you will. We have a module that we go into and identify things, jobs, positions, perhaps even locations that we think that our skill-set matches up nicely for or that match our family circumstances, and in that module, I talked about the fact that I wanted to be able to give back to the Air Force Academy in this way. And talked about the fact that for 20 years or so, give or take, I have been trying to get back here to be able to have an impact. And I listed some of the things that I felt enabled me to have that type of impact. And then I got a call from the colonel's group or the general officer's group. I can't remember which one, probably general officer's group, that said, “Hey, the superintendent would like to interview you.” And I said, “OK, very good. I look forward to talking to a superintendent.” And what I will tell you is this: It is very difficult to prepare for an interview like that. Number one, you know, in the short amount of time that you're given to prepare for it. And then two, you just really don't know what you're going to be asked. And my knowledge of the Academy was very, very dated, you know, for 27 years ago when I graduated. But I said, “OK, let's go. Let's do it.” And so, I talked to him on the way home from the Pentagon in my car driving home, and we had a really nice conversation. And I remember parking in our driveway, and I remember staying in the driveway for about 15 more minutes as the conversation concluded, and I remember going into the house, and I remember talking to my wife, and I said, “You know, there are probably a number of people that interviewed, and they are, I'm positive, incredibly well suited for the position. There's always somebody better.” That's another great lesson that the Academy taught me, is there's always somebody better. But I said, “I think I feel like that went well. I don't know that I could have given any more to that interview.” Eventually, the superintendent made a decision. The superintendent had to vet that decision through higher levels as well. And eventually you come out on a list and it is announced that this is your next job.     Naviere Walkewicz That's how you found out? You saw the list?   Brig. Gen. Marks So admittedly, you know, birdies are talking to me ahead of time. But at the same time, you are just as a professional, more than anything else that is, that's meant to be private information for just and your family to kind of get your mind wrapped around those types of things. Because, as we've seen over the course of numerous years now, sometimes these lists come out later, and if you were to find out solely by that, that's not a lot of time to house hunt. That's not a lot of time to arrange schools. That's not a lot of time to arrange PCSing, you know, those types of things. So, and in this particular case, I needed to PCS from the Pentagon. I needed to perform a promotion ceremony. I needed to work a change of command ceremony here as well. And so, my wife and I joke, now this last move was the most difficult move we've ever, ever had, because I did all that in 30 days.   Naviere Walkewicz 53:27 Wow, it was a lot, but this was probably one that you were both excited for, not just her.   Brig. Gen. Marks 53:31 Oh, we were. The amount of YouTube videos that we watched in our household about basic training and about the Wings of Blue, just to get our kids excited about this, which is why, I mean — there is no excuse for not knowing what you're walking into at the Air Force Academy, because there are thousands of videos out there. Yeah, and so we were very excited, and the kids were incredibly well educated on what they could expect, everything from the wildlife that's on the installation, to the climate and the altitude, to what cadet life was going to be like. And so, we were really excited. And I remember — and because the kids had never been here at all, my wife and I had taken a trip here early in our marriage, our kids had never seen it and the excitement over the five days of driving was just really, really building up. And so, when we finally were able to see the big white box on the horizon,     Naviere Walkewicz Yes, the chapel-in-the-box.   Brig. Gen. Marks Yeah, when we were able to see that, and I was pointing to it as we were driving, they were just, they were just absolutely bubbling over with excitement. It was amazing.   Naviere Walkewicz 54:34 How did you feel when you saw it?   Brig. Gen. Marks 54:38 Very, very excited. A little overwhelmed. Also, I would tell you, I was really — I was both naive and I was also incredibly humbled and respectful of what I was walking into. Naive in this regard: I felt like, my goodness, I don't know that I've ever been more prepared for a position that I'm walking into than being the commandant of cadets at the Air Force Academy. Because I graduated from here. I surely have to be well prepared and well suited. You know nothing about the inner workings of the Air Force Academy as a cadet. Nothing, nothing. And so, there was so much to learn about governance, not only that — I will tell you this: I had some troubles academically. I never had any run-ins from an honor perspective. I never had any discipline issues, either. And I don't say that to sound self-congratulatory. I say that to show my ignorance, because there were significant gaps in my knowledge and my understanding of how to manage the Cadet Wing, because I had never had any experience with honor, I'd never had any experience with discipline, and so I had to dive into those when I got here and learn that where somebody else might not have had to do that. Very respectful of what I was — the Academy is an incredibly special place. It is also, I don't say this, I don't mean this pejoratively, it is also a lightning rod for attention. There is always attention being drawn to the Air Force Academy and coming into the institution knowing that, it certainly had my attention up front, and I realized also that the opportunity to shape 4,000 cadets and to be able to be the one with a great, amazing team responsible for their military development, their character and leadership development, to ensure that on graduation they had achieved everything that they needed to do in terms of commissioning education to be responsible for their honor education, to be the one that is ultimately overseeing cadet life, it's an awesome, awesome responsibility, and I had a tremendous amount of respect for it when I came into the institution. So overwhelmed in that regard.   Naviere Walkewicz 57:22 I almost could feel through your eyes what you just expressed in coming back and seeing the Academy again and I think this is a wonderful time, because some of us have had the opportunity, whether it's been recent reunions, to hear you speak at reunion briefings, to catch a glimpse of you know, some of the changes or some of the things that you've brought back. Maybe this is an opportunity to share what's Academy life like now, but through the eyes of the commandant. What would you like to share with our listeners?   Brig. Gen. Marks 57:49 So, I would tell you and your listeners that the life of a cadet has changed and is going to change even more. So, I would start much more strategic and talk about this geo-strategically. Being in an era of great power competition, we recognize that because of who our competitor is, because of the advances that they have made, et cetera, it is incredibly important. It's critical for us to rethink how we do just about anything. Rethink how we train, how we develop, how we organize, how we employ force, how we sustain that employment of force, everything. At the Air Force Academy we're in a developmental business and so it's important for us to step back and ask ourselves, with no indictment on the past and the cadets and the lieutenants, rather that we have created and that we have graduated, but right now today, are we doing everything that we can to ensure that the lieutenants that we graduate are ready to lead on Day 1 and win ultimately, should deterrence fail in great power competition? In that deep dive, we have to explore some of the training techniques that we employ here and whether they are applicable on the outside and the force the greater force, or whether they are potentially creating a hazard of negative transfer, we have to ask ourselves whether some of the traditions that we enjoy, or that we have enjoyed here at the United States Air Force Academy, are appropriate for this day and age, send the wrong message, or are potentially harmful in terms of our culture and our climate. Deep diving into all those things, one of the things that I've come to the realization about is this: What I want to be able to do is ensure that a cadet that has graduated — and I know that I won't be here for four years, but assuming that I was — meeting a cadet on I-Day and walking with them through four years, I want to make sure that they feel like they got their money's worth from a military development perspective or military training perspective. And here's what I mean by that: Anecdotally, as I talked to cadets, hundreds of cadets, and talked about their journey at the Air Force Academy, one of the things that I found is that the institution and the curriculum challenged them as a four degree. I think that is universal. But I would also say, and I would imagine, that many of your listeners who are grads would agree that once you were out of your four-degree year, the institution allowed for it to be, if this was your desire, very easy for you to coast militarily, or, dare I say, potentially hide militarily. And I didn't want that. I wanted essentially the same level of rigor that is placed on you academically and the same level of rigor that is placed on you physically and athletically to be placed on you militarily. Said another way, the same sweaty palms that you get in anticipation of your GR are the same sweaty palms that you get in anticipation of your PFT. I want you to have an anticipation of your inspection, or an anticipation of your formation, or an anticipation of your knowledge test, et cetera, throughout your four years. And so, we have evolved our thinking and more importantly, our focus to developing across all four years with the same level of diligence and the same level of rigor that we placed in our fourth-class development. And so the moniker, or the catch phrase, the bumper sticker that we use is that we have transition from a focus on the fourth-class system, to a four-class system, where you can expect, as a rising three degree, or as a rising two degree, to be taught what we need you to do in terms of your military development, expectations and responsibilities, let loose to go practice those things, those supervisory skills, et cetera; assessed on those things, taught warfighting skills as well, that will prepare you for great power competition, et cetera, et cetera. And I can go into a lot more detail, but suffice it to say, this is a significant shift in how we've been operating, and it's a shift for the better, because this is what our nation needs. This is putting us in a better position to be ready on Day 1 to lead and to win on Day 1. So, I'm really excited about it.   Naviere Walkewicz That is exciting. Brig. Gen. Marks We're also bringing some rigor back into expectations about what it means to be a member of the Cadet Wing. So, in other words, we are increasing the number of formations. We are increasing the number of inspections. We are putting our money where our mouth is with respect to the fact that we say and rightly so, that we value character. We are now adding that too as a function of how we assess from a military performance average perspective, how we assess character, because it's so important, it's so critical. There are a lot of changes that are happening for the better, and these changes are going to affect not only the readiness of our cadets, but it's going to affect the culture of our Wing as well in a positive way. It's just going to take some time.   Naviere Walkewicz 1:04:00 That's outstanding. Do you see that trickling up as well into some of the officers that are involved in this, with you, and shaping the cadets — so the AOCs, also your AMTs, and how they're doing that? Is that part of this as well?     Brig. Gen. Marks 1:04:13 It is, and I'll be honest with you, I don't want to be short-sighted or to minimize the impact that the entire institution is going to have. Believe it or not, the touch points that our faculty have, our coaches and staff have, they are abundant, and we would be doing ourselves and our cadets a disservice if all of us in lockstep were — not attacking the problem, but weren't in this together in terms of this development and this approach that we're taking. And so we are. We absolutely are. The dean and I are classmates. We have a tremendous and positive relationship, same with the athletic director and the executive director of Athletics as well. And together we have coffee on a regular basis, and we share ideas and talk about our approaches so that we can together positively impact our cadets. So yes, it is an all-of-USAFA approach and an all-in approach.   Naviere Walkewicz 1:05:22 Absolutely love that. Well, I have two questions. I want to give them to you so you have a chance to think about. The first one being, you know, as a commandant, what keeps you up at night? I think that's something on the minds of our listeners. But then also, would you share maybe, what's something that you're so proud of that's happened since you've been here kind of under your leadership, and maybe something that you're not so proud of? And you can answer those however you'd like.   Brig. Gen. Marks 1:05:48 What keeps me up at night is the resilience of cadets. And let me explain that just a little bit. In no way is that an indictment of a generational thing; this generation of cadets is less. Not at all. It's me talking about human behavior and saying that our program is difficult, it's challenging, and individuals respond in different ways to that, and what keeps me up is an individual feeling like there is no way out. That bothers me a lot. It really, realy, really concerns me a tremendous amount. And so I spend a lot of time talking to our command teams about this and about the need for us to administratively ensure that we are being as efficient as possible when we adjudicate certain matters, because what we don't want to do is leave someone dangling in terms of decision making for months and months on end, because that exacerbates that problem and my concern. In terms of what I am most proud of — so, the jury is still out, but here's what I'll say: I'm very proud of a lot of things. I'm proud of the team we've assembled. I'm proud of the work that is being done at the Staff level. I'm proud of the work that our commanders and our AMTs are doing. Our commanders, our AOCs. I am also very proud of the partnership that we have across the installation. That partnership has enabled us to make a significant change to what is called the schedule of calls, the construct that defines how cadets, day to day, spend their time, essentially. We have made a significant change to it that enables us to provide a more professionalized delivery of commissioning education. It has allowed for us to provide some white space in cadets lives, significant white space. It has allowed for us to build in time for unit fitness. Unit fitness being the operative phrase there, because the unit is so important and developing that cohesion is so important. It ha

Perhaps best known for his accomplishments on the field, at its core, Coach Troy Calhoun's work is about building athletes in to leaders of character.----more---- SUMMARY In this conversation, Coach Troy Calhoun discusses his journey from childhood to becoming the head football coach of the Air Force Falcons. He talks about his upbringing in a family of service and the influence of his parents. Coach Calhoun shares his experiences as a cadet at the Air Force Academy and the lessons he learned in leadership. He also discusses the intersections of athletics and academics and the importance of patience in navigating the highs and lows of life. In this conversation, Coach Troy Calhoun discusses the importance of resilience, patience, and delayed gratification in the pursuit of success. He emphasizes the need to slow down and assess challenges, rather than seeking instant affirmation. Coach Calhoun shares examples of cadets who have shown tremendous growth and success after facing initial difficulties. He also highlights the importance of instilling values and standards in his players, both on and off the field. Coach Calhoun discusses his philosophy on leadership, which includes being right alongside his people, knowing his craft well, and creating an environment where ideas and perspectives are valued. He also emphasizes the significance of believing in and supporting others. Outside of football, Coach Calhoun enjoys spending time with his family, learning, and maintaining a balance in life. He concludes by emphasizing the importance of passion, involvement with people, and the development of others in leadership.   OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "Coach Calhoun can easily be considered a game changer and trailblazer shaping the world of sports, leadership and beyond." "You gotta go serve the people." "The discipline, the attention to detail, and the unselfishness for what was required and demanded in terms of teamwork." "If you push forward when you come out the other side, just the additional strength, the confidence." "Maybe you can share a story? And what I'm thinking about is when you talk about patience and affirmation showing in an outcome that is later on." "You know, I think it is more difficult than ever for a teenager, for all human beings."   SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK  |  TWITTER  |   LINKEDIN   CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction and Background 01:50 Childhood and Upbringing 04:25 Discovering the Air Force Academy 05:22 Life as a Cadet 09:00 Leadership and Mentorship 10:27 Intersections of Athletics and Academics 13:23 Lessons in Leadership 16:06 Navigating Challenges and Growth 19:43 Transition to Coaching 22:54 Coaching and Leadership 23:23 Values and Character Development 25:46 The Power of Resilience and Patience 30:08 Instilling Values and Standards for Success 31:59 The Philosophy of Leadership 35:18 Believing in and Supporting Others 42:30 Finding Balance and Pursuing Personal Interests 49:34 Passion and Involvement in Leadership 51:59 The Reward of Developing Others   TAKEAWAYS Coach Calhoun's upbringing in a family of service shaped his values and commitment to leadership. His experiences as a cadet at the Air Force Academy taught him the importance of discipline, time management, and teamwork. Coach Calhoun emphasizes the value of mentorship and the impact it can have on young people. The intersections of athletics and academics provide opportunities for personal growth and leadership development. Navigating the highs and lows of life requires patience and a willingness to learn and grow. Resilience and patience are key qualities for success in any endeavor. Delayed gratification can lead to greater strength and confidence. Instilling values and standards is important for personal and professional development. Leadership involves being involved with and supporting your people. Believing in and supporting others can help them achieve more than they thought possible. Maintaining a balance in life and pursuing personal interests is important for overall well-being. Passion and involvement with people are essential in leadership. Developing others and helping them grow is a rewarding aspect of leadership.   ABOUT COACH CALHOUN BIO Air Force Academy Head Football Coach Troy Calhoun graduated USAFA with the class of ‘89.   Coach Calhoun can easily be considered a game-changer and trailblazer, shaping the world of sports, leadership and beyond.  He is the very dynamic head coach of the Air Force Falcons football team. Known for his innovative approach and unwavering commitment, Coach Calhoun has led the Falcons through remarkable seasons, transforming them into a formidable force in college football and as warfighters. With a career that spans over a decade at Air Force Academy, Coach Calhoun has earned a reputation for building resilient teams and cultivating emerging leaders using a blend of discipline and inspiration.  We'll walk through his journey from his days as a child, to becoming a cadet, then on to coaching and the challenges and triumphs he's experienced in and out of sports. We'll explore his unique strategies, his philosophy on leading and what it takes to succeed at the highest levels of leadership. He is among the most recognizable and respected figures in football.  - Image credit:  Ryan Hall, USAFA AOG   CONNECT WITH COACH CALHOUN RADIO SHOW  |  AIR FORCE FOOTBALL  |  FULL BIO     ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!          TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Guest:  Coach Troy Calhoun '89  |  Host:  t. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Navier Walkewicz My guest today is Air Force Academy head football coach Troy Calhoun, USAFA Class of '89. Coach Calhoun can easily be considered a game changer and trailblazer, shaping the world of sports, leadership and beyond. He is the very dynamic head coach of the Air Force Falcons football team and a 2023 recipient of the Association of Graduates' Leadership Achievement Award. Known for his innovative approach and unwavering commitment, Coach Calhoun has led the Falcons through remarkable seasons, transforming them into a formidable force in college football and as warfighters. With a career that spans over a decade at the Air Force Academy, Coach Calhoun has earned a reputation for building resilient teams and cultivating emerging leaders using a blend of discipline and inspiration. We'll walk through his journey from his days as a child to becoming a cadet, then on to coaching and the challenges and triumphs he's experienced in and out of sports. We'll explore his unique strategies, his philosophy on leadership and what it takes to succeed at the highest levels. This promises to be an insightful and engaging conversation with one of the most respected figures in football and leadership. Coach Calhoun, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Coach Calhoun Well, thank you, Naviere, and what an honor it is to be a part of your show. Naviere Walkewicz Well, this is an honor for us, and I think what our listeners really appreciate about each of our guests is they kind of know a little bit about them, but once they start to learn about your paths and your journey, I think they really find ways to connect with you. So we hope that this will continue that trend so that they feel just as connected to Coach Calhoun as we do. Coach Calhoun We sure hope so. So let's kick it off, right?   Naviere Walkewicz Yes, let's do it. So, Coach, the way we like to start, we like to roll back the dial, we go back to when you were a child. What were you like as a child? Where'd you grow up? Coach Calhoun You know, I grew up in southern Oregon. Ironically, we settled in a town, it was a lumber town, which at that time was very labor-intensive. My dad was a high school teacher and a high school coach. My mom raised the kids and as soon as the kids started grade school — myself and my younger sister — she went and got a two-year nursing degree and then worked as an emergency room nurse. Naviere Walkewicz Wow, so you guys have a just a family of service. Coach Calhoun That's exactly it. I can't tell you how many times I heard my mom say, “You know —" we'd ask mom, “Hey mom, don't you know it's a holiday, it's Thanksgiving, it's, you know, you don't have to go to work today.” And she said, “No, you gotta go serve the people.” The way that resonates now when you look back and to have that kind of figure that way was very inspirational, still is. Naviere Walkewicz That's wonderful. And I can imagine that. So what were some of the experiences like in the Calhoun household when you were a child? Coach Calhoun You know, my dad, obviously being a coach, goodness, he knew so much about every sport, whether it was basketball or baseball. So myself and my younger sister, we both played all kinds of sports. It was year round. It was wiffle ball in our front yard, or it was, we learned how to pole vault at a really young age, which was hard to do. We had a little paved cement area and we had a basket on each end. So we were always playing 2-on-2 or 3-on-3 basketball. Naviere Walkewicz So who would win, your sister or you? Coach Calhoun She'd tell you she always won, but it was just an unbelievable upbringing that way. Naviere Walkewicz My goodness. So you're in sports, no one in your family was  serving in the military though, so how did that even touch your family? Coach Calhoun You know, great question. My mother had three brothers. This was in the early '60s. They were around 20, 22 years old and each enlisted: one in the Marines, one in the Navy and one in the Army. So we really thought, well, that's about the extent of it. And at the beginning of my senior year high school, I got a call from the Air Force Academy, one of the football coaches, who shared a little bit about the Academy. And I really, to be candid, I had no idea. I really didn't. And so my mom goes into work the next morning and asked one of the ER docs, who was also in the Reserves, and said, “Hey, there's this place called the Air Force Academy that called Troy last night, but I really would like for him to go somewhere where he can get an education. Do you know anything about the place?” And immediately one of the docs said, “Joan, if he has that opportunity, you have to make him go.” And she took it literally to heart. And ironically, two years later, my sister also came to the Air Force Academy too. Naviere Walkewicz Wow. truly connected. So let's talk about that. So your mom kind of helped facilitate that encouragement. What did that look like? So you came out here, what was that experience like? Coach Calhoun You know the very first day I arrived here was the first day of basic training, which is not the way to do it. Naviere Walkewicz You knew you were coming for football, but you had not been here yet. Coach Calhoun I had not because I played three sports in high school. I played football… Naviere Walkewicz Then you went right into basketball, then you went right into baseball… Coach Calhoun In the summers, it was all three. It was baseball in the evenings playing games. You'd have football workouts in the afternoon, and I ran the YMCA basketball camp in the morning for younger kids. So, yeah, Day 1 of arrival here was July 5, the morning of July 5, 1985. The first four days, I'm just telling you, I thought, “No way. How do I get out of here?” And I just vividly recall whether you're brushing your teeth or shaving thinking, “There's no way.” And then I got to thinking, you know, “Your mom's an ER nurse in an area where there are lot of significant accidents,” because it was the lumber industry, whether it was, you know, trees falling, accidents at the mill. I mean, just all kinds of different things. And I remember once in a while she'd come home, I thought, “Goodness, she had a real game that day. It's not one of those where the ball bounces one way or the other. And there's no way you can call home and say, no, this isn't for me.” Naviere Walkewicz So that makes sense. You develop that deep resilience you saw from your mom. So I want to talk, before we go into the Academy, let's talk about — you had that great family, it was shown to you as embodied through your mom, your dad, and obviously you and your sister. Were there any other leaders that inspired you? Your own coaches as well, or just teachers? Coach Calhoun Yeah, absolutely. I was blessed to have some really, really outstanding teachers. I don't know why. Math was always a strength, which I think helps while you're here at the Academy, they jump you right into calculus and then Calc 2 and then later on it's Aero and it's Astro. But the other part was to have teachers that taught you the value of history, you know, to understand yesterday. And we're always living to make the most of the present in the moment and what kind of vision we can put forth for the future. But to learn from some of the mistakes in the past, to learn from the good things in the past, just to know where that can be applied as we move forward too. And my high school football coach was incredibly influential. He ran an incredible program where not only did they win a lot, but more importantly than the result were the standards, the discipline, and more than anything else, just the attention to detail and the unselfishness for what was required and he demanded in terms of the teamwork. Naviere Walkewicz So you actually were living the life of a cadet as a high school football player. Coach Calhoun I tease people about this when I'm asked back home once in a while and I say, you know, all those times you were lining up just getting through the first 10 minutes of practice — which was stretching where you couldn't put your toes on the line, they had to be just behind it — I said, “After playing for Coach Thurman Bell in high school, basic training wasn't all that hard.” So, absolutely I do. Naviere Walkewicz I love that. OK, so the Academy recruited you for football, you showed up and you made it through basic training. So, let's talk a little bit about your life as a cadet, because I think we appreciate this about our athletes. We've had a chance to talk with Karl Falk, who was also on the team. I think what's interesting is there's more to the cadet life than just one facet. And so while I think athletics is a huge part of it, what were you like as a cadet? What were some of your experiences? Coach Calhoun You know, I actually did really well on the MPA part of it. I think the academic end took me a little bit of time, to be frank. Now I end up making the Dean's List towards the end of my time here at the Academy a few times. And yet you learn the value of time management. We're all blessed with the ability to make good choices, to be disciplined, to work hard. We all have that talent. And I think that's a key part of moving forward to coaching. You realize how important that is to share with young people. Yeah, that's in there, now we gotta tap into it. And certainly here at the Academy, it's just invaluable, all those intrinsic qualities that I think come to the surface. And I certainly felt that way, in a good number of facets were just how transformational it was for you as a human being. Naviere Walkewicz Some of our listeners are early in their leadership journeys and so I think there is a period of time where maybe there's more peer leadership. Can you share some examples when you're a cadet, what did that look like to you and where did you maybe struggle or soar? Coach Calhoun I'll say this, during the four-degree year I was fortunate enough to be with the older guys and to travel a good bit and so you naturally looked up to some of those juniors and seniors and those older players, and the older cadets too. I think the part that was so — it made such an imprint while you were here was really the strong interest that older students took, in this case older cadets, their first year, two-degree year, they're juniors or seniors in college, but how committed they were to younger grades, because, candidly, you rarely experience that maybe when you're in high school or even on other teams. Boy, I just, I thought that's so incredible where the older guys want to help the younger guys on your team or the older cadets truly do — the way they're invested and how much they care about the younger generation. Naviere Walkewicz Was there one in particular that kind of took you under his wing that there's something that you carry with you now in the way that you lead? Coach Calhoun I had so many, you know, they were teachers. I think that was the other part that was absolutely awesome. I think we both felt this at times, maybe in different ways. The commitment of our faculty here at the Academy, you know, to be able to go get extra instruction. You complete a quiz and maybe you didn't do real well on that quiz and the instructor comes to you and says, “Hey, let's find a time where we can get together,” and I think we know how unique that is in higher-level education in this day and age because there are a good number of universities where the classroom size may have 250 or 300 students, or there may be a teaching assistant or a graduate assistant, but here the expertise and truly the commitment to the cadets, it just made it even more inspiring to say, “All right, I want to be a good student while I'm here.” Naviere Walkewicz You actually are seen and felt in the classrooms here for sure. So you saw some of your upperclassmen really kind of pouring into you. How did that translate in your leadership as a cadet, either on the field or off? Coach Calhoun No doubt. I think not only, you know, while you're young person growing up, whether it's in your home, playing sports or you're working in a job or you're in your squadron during your time in Vandenberg or  Sijan, you see so many different ways to lead or to have impact. A lot of good and honestly, there are some times where you say, “No that might not be the most effective way to reach and to encourage and to mentor somebody,” and I try like crazy to learn from everybody, you know, because no matter what the encounter is or the experience, maybe let's pull from it. Naviere Walkewicz Is there anything from when you were a cadet that you carry now with you as a coach and leader? Coach Calhoun Yeah, an immense amount. I think more than anything else, you have to do everything you possibly can and it's no way can you put yourself in the soles of each person, but to realize that every human being is a unique individual. Are we trying to build teams? Absolutely. But we're trying to bring the most to tap into those talents of each person and to do everything we can to help them sprout. Naviere Walkewicz I think I can share firsthand with our listeners: I've had the great honor of listening to you introduce your team, introduce your coaches and I think what's so impressive about you is it's beyond just their name and maybe some of their stats, but you know them as people and you know them as how they are in their families. And I think that translates really, really well to all those pieces you just spoke to. Coach Calhoun Well, I appreciate it. I'll tell you this: I want to know them as deeply as you possibly can. I think in order to be the most effective for our team's sake, again, it's got to be person by person. And I truly believe in this day and age, it's easier to reach a young person than it's ever been. Not everybody would agree with that. And I say that from the standpoint — we all do, we spend so much time looking at a monitor or a phone or, you know, that whenever we have real human interaction and their sincerity, you know, there's a genuine feeling where this person's trying to help me grow as a leader, grow as a person, do a little better academically and realize the value of education or help me develop as a better football player too. Naviere Walkewicz Just to dig into that a little bit more, I think part of leadership is being able to have conversations that help people grow. Sometimes that's, “Hey, this is a good fit for you, this is not a good fit for you.” When you were a cadet, how did you navigate some of those conversations that's translated over time? Because I know a lot of our listeners feel like that's one of the biggest challenges in leadership. It's great when things are great, but when things aren't, how do we navigate that? Coach Calhoun Well, honesty. If you provide me, it may be critical, but I know you're doing it to help correct or to improve, you got me. I think the other part is to have a forever appetite and thirst to learn and to grow. And I think when that's really your heart, your mindset, that you're completely open to understand and various viewpoints that will help you do exactly that. Naviere Walkewicz I think that's powerful for people to really intake because, especially when it's coming from a place of care, and I think that's what we're in the business of and being open to feedback is really critical for leadership. So I'd like to transfer to when you graduated from — well actually before we do that, your sister was here. How were you as a cadet supporter of her? Coach Calhoun You know she had an amazing four years here at the Air Force Academy. She graduated No. 1 in her major academically, was a 10-time All-American distance runner in track and cross country, won six NCAA championships as a runner. Her senior year she was the NCAA champion in cross country and then won five other national championships in indoor and outdoor track. You know, she teases her brother a little bit. “So,” she says, you know, “you must suffer from big brother syndrome or older brother syndrome.” I say, “Cool it, young lady.” But, you know, she made the utmost of the cadet, the Academy experience. And truly I, boy, in so many ways, I looked up to my younger sister and I still do. Naviere Walkewicz Well, I understand why you chose baseball. So let's talk about when you graduated. What were the early years of post-graduation like for you? Coach Calhoun Yeah, I stayed for one year here at the Academy as a graduate assistant football coach and also taught a PE class. I'm thinking initially, “This will be kind of neat. You'll let down a little bit after you've been at the Academy.” But it was an awesome leadership experience. You know, the mentorship, the interaction, especially with the new cadets or new basics going through basic training, during that four-degree year being able to help them plan their schedule academically or teach them how if they have better footwork for this particular call they'll execute a play a little bit better or just interacting with them as people. My goodness, you realize, I mean just the various backgrounds, the interests, maybe the motivational levels too because that's real, the different strengths in terms of skills and talents — that was where you realized, my goodness, as a leader, as a coach in this case, how helpful you can be. Naviere Walkewicz Is that when the seeds were planted for you that you knew you wanted to coach golf and football down the road? Coach Calhoun You know, that wasn't the plan, it really wasn't. In fact, I really wanted to go to pilot training. Naviere Walkewicz So after that first year, what happened? Coach Calhoun Well, you have your physical late in your junior year, it was March of your two-degree year. And at that time, they said there's a little bit of distance concern. And we didn't have LASIK or PRK, you know? And so you end up taking a little different path naturally. Naviere Walkewicz So after you did the year here kind of teaching and also supporting the team, what did you do? Coach Calhoun I worked in management information systems in the Air Force and specifically it was a program where if the president, the commander-in-chief, had to send an EAM literally from one of the legs of the triad to launch, is it a real message? Can you authenticate the message? And is it dual key where it's truly two people that say, “Yep, it's a go?” Trying to recreate some of the roles and the intensity of what that situation may be and being able to get to execution and just to see it in so many fascinating ways because you saw it at the field level, with longer range missiles, the ICBMs, being able to interact with that community, to interact with a contractor for software for hardware, just every facet of it that way — you had an awful lot on your plate in terms of managerial leadership responsibility. Naviere Walkewicz Right off the bat, I'm familiar with that — I'm actually retired strategic command so, yes, everything you just shared is definitely important. So you did that, and then what happened? Coach Calhoun You know, I got a call when I was a first lieutenant from the Academy that said, “We'd like for you to come back.” So I came back for what would have been years five and six, my first two years as a captain here to the Air Force Academy and coached during those two years and recruited during those two years. One of the assistants on the staff, Jim Grobe, became the coach at Ohio University. He asked a few of us that were here at the Academy — It was Brian Knorr, was Billy Mitchell, it was... And then he went and asked Tim DeRuyter, who was a 1985 graduate of the Academy, if we wanted to join him at Ohio University. And that's exactly what we did. Naviere Walkewicz So you started your team there, and now we see a lot of that team has been part of this Falcon family as well. Coach Calhoun Absolutely, you know, and I think, you know, you just kind of knew immediately so much of what we leaned on initially were the lessons that we learned while we're here at the Academy. Naviere Walkewicz Can I pull on that thread a little bit? You're here as a captain, you're coaching. Let's talk about the intersections of athletics and academics because I think that's really important for our listeners just to understand, how you said earlier, those leadership skills translate. Can you talk a little bit more about that — what you saw in the cadets from your perspective as a coach? Coach Calhoun Well, I think I think there are so many different reasons why cadets come to the Academy. There are a good number of them that are either second-generational, second-generation or multi-generational in terms of military families. We probably, I know we do, we have many that are first-generational as far as being the reason why they chose to come to the Academy. Naviere Walkewicz Like you. Coach Calhoun Yeah. And yet what's neat is the rewarding part of it, whether it's seven years later or 15 years later, being able to see how many of them have absolutely thrived once they go on to active duty or even beyond in the civilian sector too. Just, boy, I mean, it's a process. It truly is. If everybody was ready on Day 1, we wouldn't need a United States Air Force Academy. We'd commission them right away. But during those four years, 47 months, the ups and the downs, so many different mistakes that are made, but to learn and to grow from those mistakes, I don't think we can ever take for granted. There's a reason why from really initially, the very first week, there's so many things that are spelled out in terms of our values. When it comes to respect for each human being, the work ethic, always give a third effort, the resiliency and the grit part of it, that really — that's what we want them to internalize in terms of the fortitude and the character. And then we go on to the other skills when they're here a little bit longer at the Academy. Naviere Walkewicz So some of our listeners love when there's shared ways of how they can navigate. You talked about some of those highs and lows. And I'm sure that happens in life, right? Not just on the field, but also academically and all of the different facets of life. So what would be just something you would share with a leader that's helping someone navigate through the highs and lows that's kind of cyclical? Coach Calhoun Yeah, I think more than anything else is to be patient, which kind of works a little bit… while you're here at the Academy initially. So much of it is creating an instant impulse or the instant drive rather than saying, “No. We're working with human beings here.” There are going to be some bumps and some struggles and some adversity, but let's help them realize that what may look like a real challenge, and it is a real challenge, or a real time of difficulty, if you push forward when you come out the other side, just the additional strength, the confidence, the forever resiliency that hopefully has become internalized. Naviere Walkewicz I love that. Teach a little bit of patience because I think in a society that is running so fast, everything is instantaneous, to teach our cadets, our future leaders, et cetera, to slow down and really kind of assess. Is that what you mean? Coach Calhoun Absolutely. And you hit the nail on the head. In this day and age, how quickly we can get anything, we think we're getting so much instant affirmation. That somebody re-liked or re-tweeted something that I said. You know, we think that's real affirmation. Or maybe that's not the case in terms of it really being best in terms of our well-being. Naviere Walkewicz So maybe can you share a story? And what I'm thinking about is when you talk about patience and affirmation showing in an outcome later on, maybe talk through, has that been someone that you've seen come through your program that maybe you thought was, “I don't know,” and then on the other end, you're just, “Wow!”? Coach Calhoun I have many, many examples. The reason why, you know, it's so many other — comparatively speaking, a college football program, how many are bringing a guy in, they're saying in Week 1 in June. In fact, I'll back up. Instead of  finishing high school in spring semester your senior year, we're going to bring you in in January so you can get going to classes, you can go through spring practices. That way, maybe we have you ready in the fall to be able to play right away. Where here, it's a different approach, you know? No, when you first get here, you're gonna start basic training and you're gonna go through five and a half weeks. We get you one tremendous haircut. No, you're not gonna have your phone or really any interaction with any kind of outside source, whether it's media, whether it's any kind of personal interaction unless you handwrite a letter, you got a pen right there and now exactly where to put the stamp on the top right hand part of the envelope. And so the foundation that you see here, probably specifically to the football part of it, it takes a little longer because there is that basic training prior to the freshman year or four-degree year. There is the first three weeks of June are going through CST or what used to be SERE, you know, prior to the three-degree year. And so football-wise, a lot of times maybe you don't see the real capability of that person until their two-degree year. And so the lessons that you have to share, I think especially with four-degree players is that, hey, it takes time, but you can cite so many examples of guys that didn't play a snap their freshman year, maybe only played in three games their three-degree or sophomore year. And whoa, PJ Ramsey has seen years as a First-Team All-Conference player. But why? You go back, incredibly hard worker, sharp, cared about other people and was incredibly committed to whatever his craft was at that time, whether it was school during the academic time, being a good cadet, or certainly when it came to football during those times, whether it was in the weight room, meeting rooms, just the commitment that way. Naviere Walkewicz Yes, that's a great example. How do you instill in your players the importance of those same standards off the field? Coach Calhoun You know, I think it is more difficult than ever for a teenager, for all human beings. And, you know, the amount of distractions that are present for all of us, you know, there's a lot more items happening on Facebook. There's a lot more media. There's a lot more judgment. To have the discipline to be able to put that aside at times, boy, that can become a strength for you later in life if you do develop that. There are times where you have to turn your phone off. I think the other part is you don't take for granted that everybody understands the values that maybe our team is — each team member is going to be committed to as a part of our program. I think you have to be very clear in terms of what those standards are, how you treat people. We're here to get an education. We're going to be completely committed to help you develop as a football player. But most importantly, when you're done playing football, whether that's at age 19, 22 or 32, we want to put you in a position where you can do tremendous work, whether it's in our Air Force or our Space Force. You can be a really strong contributing member of our community or whatever community in which you live. And to be a quality member of your family, whatever that may be in your personal life too. Naviere Walkewicz So you talked about some of those standards that you expect from the team. Can we shift a little bit to some of your philosophy on leadership that you've developed over the years, right? I'm sure that it's continued to evolve. You mentioned that you're learning all the time. What are some of those things? Coach Calhoun I'll say this. I think you have to be right alongside your people. Goodness, maybe 125 years ago during the Industrial Revolution, everything could be top down and dictated and say you have to be here from 7 to 3, you're working that shift or you have the late night shift from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m. That's not where you're going to get the most out of people and certainly not where they're going to develop the most either. I think you have to know your craft incredibly well. Even the nuances, certainly strategically there has to be a vision, but even tactically, you know, they know if you know your stuff and, again, I just can't say enough about getting to know each individual human being too. Naviere Walkewicz How do you lead your staff so that they carry that same level of care — the cadets and the team members? Coach Calhoun Yeah, awesome question. You know, I think first of all, during the hiring process is making it quite clear in terms of every place has challenges or obstacles. Certainly if you come to the Air Force Academy and you coach football, you're a recruiter for the United States Air Force Academy, the admission standards. We're looking for somebody that's an exceptionally strong student, has a good bit of aptitude leadership-wise. And the other part of it is, yeah, there are some things that are involved here in terms of conduct, in terms of personal choices. And yes, you are going to serve because often, with a good number of the 17-year-olds with whom we interact initially they don't know that. Naviere Walkewicz That's right. So how do you communicate the values and the standards so that it does kind of reach them? Coach Calhoun Well, I think more than anything else, again, I think you have to be as much as you possibly can involved in the inner workings of how the day to day goes. And I don't think you can be distant. I don't think you can say, “Well, it's a little bit of the CEO mindset,” or, “I'll just tell people what to do.” That doesn't work real well in this day and age, especially. People want to know why. They want to know the logic behind a good number of the choices or decisions that we make for our program. I think deep down they appreciate that. I think you tend to get a little more buy-in when that's the case. And the other part, quite frankly, is trying to create an environment — not everybody feels comfortable this way, but where they will bring thoughts and ideas to you, the cadets do. And realizing that's embraced, because they have some pretty unique perspectives or adjustments. I mean, you're forever going to evolve and adapt. And that's a must, I think, in any environment, really in any industry in this day and age too. Naviere Walkewicz I mean, leadership is 360, right? Up, down, sideways. Can you share something that you learned in leadership from a cadet? Coach Calhoun Well, a bunch. I mean, the number of things they bring us. I remember one year we were playing at Army. This was in 2008. And it was a 12 o'clock Eastern kickoff, which is 10 o'clock Mountain. And so we left on Friday. We really didn't get any rest at all on Friday afternoon. And our meetings were a little bit hurried on Friday evening. And a couple of the junior cadets after the season came up and said, “Coach, would there be any way we could maybe leave on Thursday evening after practice, so we had all day Friday to carry forth on a regular schedule like we usually are accustomed to the 24 hours leading up to the game?” I was like, “You're on it. Let me go see what we can get done.” And it did not compromise in terms of more missed classes. They were better rested and they played better as a result. And so I think more than anything else is do everything you can again to make people feel welcome to bring different perspectives, especially when it makes our team better. Naviere Walkewicz Absolutely, that's a great example. Our listeners are always looking for, “I might not be the most seasoned leader. I might not be charge so I don't feel like I have a voice.” It sounds like what you're sharing is good leaders, make it an open field for feedback. Coach Calhoun Absolutely. I think more than ever how important that is. There are so many different viewpoints and perspectives. Like I share with the guys all the time, you know, I try to meet with the seniors frequently and just say, “Don't assume that I know,” you know — if there's not hot water in the showers and we aren't practicing good hygiene, boy, that's going to affect maybe having more viruses. Something that simple, you gotta bring it to me. Naviere Walkewicz That's wonderful so you make that open — that communication is key. Wow, this has been really incredible. Maybe tell some of our listeners, because I think a lot of times people will assume, well, this is what they do, this is all they do. What are some of the things that you enjoy outside of football? Coach Calhoun I think being with your family, trying to soak in as much of an imprint, to be with your own. I have kids. You know, that time and how much you learn from your own son and daughter. I've been beyond fortunate to have an incredible co-pilot with Amanda, just how bright she is, how caring she is, how perceptive, how much she's helped me coach, might not necessarily be X's and O's, but just when it comes to, you know, maybe how people are doing. And then the other part is I think the level of fitness, you know, to be committed that way. Naviere Walkewicz Is physical fitness a part of it? Coach Calhoun It is. trying to create some balance and perspective. You've got to carve out a little time, even in the heat of the season, you know, where that's the case. Naviere Walkewicz How do you do that? Coach Calhoun And well, I think you got to read. That's one way, you know, for many, and it is for us. Is there a spiritual balance there? There is. I think the other part of it is still trying to engage with people, because they bring you so many ideas and thoughts that may not be necessarily that are in our working field, but certainly we can carry over. Is it a new use of a technology? Is it a different way to look at nutrition? Just because of how important that is. And so I love learning. I think there are so many awesome examples that way. We went on a trip for 15 days here in early June, Amanda and I did, and we tried to digest as much World War II, Cold War, Holocaust and Europe. And it was just astounding how much we were able to learn during that journey. Naviere Walkewicz What did you take from that? Coach Calhoun Well, we were in Berlin. We spent two nights there in East Berlin — what was East Berlin. You know, and certainly you could recognize a good number of the buildings that were formerly in old East Germany. You could see some of the influence of the infrastructure and commitment, whether it was to business or facilities on the east side that's been made. That was unbelievable. You know, to go to Nuremberg, to go to Dachau, just how stunning it truly was. To go to Munich and then to come back up through, down into Austria and Switzerland. We ended up in Amsterdam and went through the Anne Frank house. More than ever, you realize how important it is, what we do at the United States Air Force Academy. The commitment to freedoms, to how you interact and treat people, the maturity and the respect, and how I believe even more strongly we need the United States Air Force Academy and the commitment to the values that we have here. And not only in our Air Force and our Space Force, but really to carry that forth into our communities and throughout our society. Navier Walkewicz Oh my goodness. What a trip to reinforce so much of what you live every day. Maybe you can share with us, as a coach, we talk about many successes. That's come with a lot of learning. What have you learned about yourself through the years? Coach Calhoun Well, it's not about you. You know, and I think especially as time passes, if you really want your team to perform at the highest level possible, goodness, it's got to be about the people that are especially at the front line. That's our players that are blocking and tackling; it's our coaches that are providing that individual, you know, individualized instruction. And are we doing everything we can to support them that way? And I think we all do in all of our roles. We know somebody really does have a strong, sincere interest in helping us achieve or to win. You know that. And that's where you want to gravitate towards, because they're going to help you change and transform. Trying to provide that to not only our young men that are a part of our team, but the number of young women that we have that support, whether they're as cadet managers or working and recruiting, it takes everybody. Naviere Walkewicz It really does. I think that's really powerful. It's Interesting when you know that someone believes in you, it's almost like you're capable of more than you ever thought possible. Coach Calhoun So true. I mean, I think we all can cite examples, whether it was a loved one, a family member, a teacher, a coach, somebody that you just knew they believed in you. And that's how you grow. That's how you change. Are there going to be failures and mistakes? Absolutely. Yet as we go through life, we can't be afraid to make a mistake. You know if you're flying an F-16, there are going to be some mishaps and yet hopefully you don't repeat those mistakes because you learn from them and that's how you grow. Naviere Walkewicz Coach, this has been amazing. Sometimes our listeners want to learn something interesting that you would share with us that you haven't shared with others. Is there a hidden talent or something that is unique to Coach Calhoun? Coach Calhoun I don't know if there's a hidden talent. I'll say this: I absolutely love what I do. I've felt that way all along. And yet maybe even more today than ever before. Just because now that you've done it for a few years, there have been a good number of young men. Maybe you were in their home when they were 17 years old and now you see them when they're 28 or 29 and they're flying F-35s or they're your team doctor like Travis Decker is currently, or guys that are working out in the corporate world. And so you see and the kind of fathers or maybe husbands they are that's quite impactful in fact it just tells you we got to go even harder here. So, you know, I think the other part that's so unique about the Air Force Academy too is we have to develop a warrior mindset. You know, and are there times where we are in an office setting? Yeah, there's a different demeanor there that you have to have in terms of the maturity and how you work together. Yet at the same time, we're developing young men and young women that are ready to be right at the tip of that spear too. You know, that's a requisite as part of our work is to prepare them to, if you have to eliminate an enemy or an object, to be in the right frame of mind to do that legally and operate in a way where you're following a candid order. Naviere Walkewicz You didn't share with us a hidden talent but we do know you love what you're doing. No, I'm just teasing. So, is there anything that I — so, two more things. One, I'm gonna ask you if there's anything I didn't ask that you really want to make sure our listeners hear. And then we always like to leave our listeners with like very specific kind of leadership lessons. So I'll just ask you the first one: What haven't I asked you that's on your heart to speak about today? Coach Calhoun Well I I'll say this: I think the other part that's so important for a service member or a cadet is there's somebody else that's been instrumental, whether it was in their upbringing or a co-pilot — I mentioned Amanda earlier — how invaluable they are to the performance of a person. And boy, you just know there's somebody in that — whether it was a parent, mom, dad, maybe a coach. Getting to know them a lot of times helps you too. There's so much insight that a parent provides me so often, even when a cadet is at the Academy. That's why you want to do everything you can. We talked about lines of communication, of trying to create that two-way dialogue. I know a lot — and it happens frequently in college coaching — there are a good number of coaches that say, “Man, those parents are something else.” I'm like, “Nah, I love my parents.” They share a lot with me. That helps me not only coach their son, but helps me develop and grow their young man too. Naviere Walkewicz I love that. Alright, well, I know our listeners are really excited to hear what are going to be those key items you want to share on leadership. But before we get there, I want to be sure that we provide a note of thanks to all of you listening to Long Blue Leadership. Naviere Walkewicz (Long Blue Leadership promotion) This podcast drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on all your favorite podcast apps. Be sure to send us your thoughts and comments at socialmedia@usafa.org and listen to past episodes at longblueleadership.org. Naviere Walkewicz So coach, I want to get back to you because this is all, and I know you said it's not about you, but today it's about you, Coach, and we're really appreciating this. What do you want to leave our listeners with? Because we have leaders of all levels and I think that's the whole point, right? You can be a leader at all levels. But what are some of the best leadership lessons you'd like to share? Coach Calhoun Well, you need to be doing something that you love, that you're passionate about. And the other part is, again, just the involvement that you have with your people. You know, to get in there literally where you're hip to hip and shoulder to shoulder. And I think sometimes whether you're in a leadership role or maybe you have a certain rank, you think, “I can't do that in order to maintain my distance professionally.” And I wholeheartedly disagree. I think you have to be able to operate from different perspectives as a leader. I think clearly you can still articulate and live the standards that are a part of your operation or your unit or your football program. But again, it's about people and that's what makes it go. I heard somebody say once, “If there were only computer chips or ones and zeros, the binary, then maybe we would need these standards or we wouldn't have some of these behavioral challenges,” yet we'd be really, really limited, not only in the growth, but the talent that gets to come to the surface. And it's our job to identify potential attributes and see them sprout, to see them change, and to see them grow. It's the greatest reward there is to help another human being, not only maybe in the future, be it their quality of life or to help them professionally, or maybe with a specific task. And that's what real leadership — that's what real coaching is. Naviere Walkewicz That's outstanding, Coach. Thank you. You've done this a couple times. Coach Calhoun Not like this. Naviere Walkewicz I appreciate you doing this then. Just kind of opening up. Was there anything else that was on your mind though? I didn't want to focus on asking you about the season. I'm sure you get plenty of that. Coach Calhoun No. Goodness, I think we hit the main points. You could talk about leadership — the breadth and the depth of what's involved — you could go on and on and on and on about how important so many things are, but I think we hit the key points, at least from kind of the way I see it.   Naviere Walkewicz Alright, I wanted to make sure we were able capture your thoughts on leadership in the way you feel really good about it because I think you're going to have listeners hanging on to every word. Coach Calhoun OK, thank you. If you need anything else, let me know. Naviere Walkewicz Oh, definitely will, Coach.   KEYWORDS Troy Calhoun, Air Force Academy, football, leadership, childhood, upbringing, cadet, coaching, challenges, triumphs, strategies, philosophy, success, sports, education, mentorship, resilience, teamwork, discipline, inspiration, resilience, patience, delayed gratification, challenges, growth, success, values, standards, leadership, involvement, support, family, learning, balance, passion, development     The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation        

A conversation with Sam Eckholm '18 about his unique path and work to inspire the next generation of military leaders through social media and content creation.----more---- SUMMARY In this edition of Long Blue Leadership, host Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99, is talking with Sam about his journey from the three times he landed on the “footprints” on in-processing day through the challenges he faced as he learned to lead his peers, side-stepping career advice that might have left him in obscurity, his relentless perseverance pursuing his dreams, graduation in 2018, the history he's making now and Sam's continuing support of the Air Force Academy.     SOME OF OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "Putting yourself in other people's shoes is big." "If you have an end goal in mind, it's not going to be easy to get there. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it." "What you see as a finished polished video, the behind the scenes is crazy." "Don't lose sight of that end goal." "Dig deep down and realize what you want. And just relentlessly go after that."   SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK  |  TWITTER  |   LINKEDIN    CHAPTERS 00:00 - Putting Yourself in Other People's Shoes 21:13 - The Terrazzo Gap: Challenges and Perceptions 23:49 - Finding Passion in Clubs and Sports 27:40 - From Photography to Public Affairs 30:05 - Inspired by the F-22 Demo Team 31:00 - Pursuing a Career in Public Affairs 32:24 - Learning and Growing as a Young Lieutenant 33:22 - Challenges and Rewards of Public Affairs 34:22 - Maintaining Motivation and Finding Balance 35:44 - Leading Others and Finding Personal Outlets 38:41 - Transitioning to Entrepreneurship 41:49 - Impactful Moments and Inspiring Others 46:49 - Overcoming Challenges and Pursuing Dreams 53:31 - Supporting the Academy and Creating Impactful Content 56:19 - Final Thoughts and Message to Listeners   TAKEAWAYS  - Putting yourself in other people's shoes is important for effective leadership  - The Terrazzo Gap between intercollegiate athletes and non-athletes at the Academy is a unique challenge  - Being involved in clubs and sports at the Academy provides valuable experiences and friendships  - Passion for photography and social media can lead to a career in public affairs.  - Don't lose sight of your end goal and relentlessly pursue it.  - Advocate for yourself and trust in your own decisions.  - Creating meaningful impact requires hard work and dedication.  - Inspire others by sharing your journey and experiences.  - The Academy Blueprint program helps level the playing field for aspiring cadets.  - Expand your knowledge and learn from various sources of inspiration.  - Don't be discouraged by challenges and setbacks; they can lead to growth and success.   ABOUT SAM Deep down, Sam Eckholm always knew the Air Force Academy was where he belonged. As the son of an Air Force pilot and Academy graduate, he was brought up on the blue and silver. After graduating high school in Dallas, Texas, he followed in his dad's footsteps, attending the U.S. Air Force Academy as a member of the class of 2018. Following graduation, Sam was selected as a member of the F-22 Raptor Demonstration team, where he traveled the world as a Public Affairs Officer, documenting the 5th generation stealth fighter jet at air shows across the globe. After separating from active duty in 2022, Sam's passion for military service has not changed, but his ability to share that passion with an even larger audience has. His videos have accumulated over 100 million views online, with over 1 million followers across his social media platforms. Attending the Air Force Academy is what started it all, and Sam's goal is to help others achieve their dreams of throwing their hat in the air and graduating from the Academy. The Air Force Academy Blueprint is the culmination of almost two years of pouring his heart and soul into a singular project, and he can't wait to bring it to you. - Image and copy courtesy of Sam Eckholm CONNECT WITH SAM LINKEDIN  |  INSTAGRAM  |  FACEBOOK  |  TWITTER   LINKS WE MENTIONED ACADEMY BLUEPRINT SAM'S YOUTUBE CHANNEL     ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!          SAM'S YOUTUBE CHANNEL     TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS:   Guest:  Sam Eckholm '18  |  Host:  t. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99   Sam Eckholm Putting yourself in other people's shoes is big. It's kind of hard to remember that because you're getting information from your leader, right, your boss, they're telling you one thing, it's hard for them to see kind of two layers down how that's going to impact everyone else. So, I mean, I would always just try to put myself in other people's shoes. Okay, if I do this, what's that gonna… how's that going to make this person feel?   Naviere Walkewicz My guest today is Sam Eckholm, USAFA class of 2018 and Air Force captain turned full-time entrepreneur and storyteller, the third in his family's Long Blue Line. Sam is the son of a 1989 graduate and the nephew of a 1993 graduate. All three hail from Cadet Squadron 28, the Blackbirds. We'll talk with Sam about his Dallas roots to the day he stood on the footprints at the Academy. We'll ask him about how he made his way from the wing to the F-22 Raptor demonstration team, then public affairs, out of the Air Force in '23, and now an entrepreneur, content creator and social media influencer. Sam's father and uncle were his main sources of inspiration for becoming a member of the profession of arms. And he has stayed close to the Air Force and the Academy ever since. He leads hopefuls to reach for their dreams and shares his passion for all things Air Force with the world. As we move through the conversation, we'll talk about lessons he's learned in being a leader, and what advice he would give to those aspiring to become leaders and leaders who want to be better. Sam, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Welcome to Long Blue Leadership and thank you for being here today.   Sam Eckholm Naviere, it's always great to see you. It's always great to be back at the best school in the world.   Naviere Walkewicz Yes, it is. And I mean, I think what's so great about your story, Sam, and what's so unique for our listeners is they feel like they know you because you have such an incredible presence. But today, they're really going to get a chance to understand how you got here. And I think that's what's so fascinating for people.   Sam Eckholm Yeah, that means a lot. It's always fun to sit down and kind of talk a little bit more in depth. You know, with the videos I do, I'm trying to focus on highlights and showing some action and keeping the viewer's attention. But this is just kind of laid back.    Naviere Walkewicz  Let's talk and relive some fun, exciting , you know, stories from the Academy and beyond. Yes, this is about you now. So, you get to be the spotlight and I'm really excited to take everyone on this journey. So, let's roll it back a little bit. We'll start with a journey of Sam as a little boy, you know.  I know you shared you kind of grew up in Dallas after third grade. We had a little bit of a chat, but you did some bouncing around before that. Let's hear about your childhood.   Sam Eckholm Yeah, so my dad, an '89 grad, like you said went off to pilot training ended up flying KC-135s. So I was actually born at McConnell Air Force Base, right, and so Wichita, Kansas. Fun fact: little full-circle moment for me, I'm gonna' be headed out there in two weeks to do a KC-46 video with the unit there and first time I'll have been back since I was born. So that'll be really fun to see. But yeah, growing up I mean, I don't consider myself an Air Force brat because my dad did separate when I was young, but we bounced around every two years but Dyess McConnell, it was fun. Definitely have some early memories of him and his flight suit walking out on the flight line. And that probably sparked the initial interest in wanting to serve. I think I shoved that to a side for a little bit until I was a bit more mature and could realize what that actually meant. Kind of around the second or third grade, he got out, transitioned to the airline world settled on American Airlines, and moved to Dallas, Texas. And that's really where I call my home. That's where I grew up. And as you know, Dallas is a super not just for Academy athletes and future cadets. It's just seems like a hot hub, right, for a lot of people move there. So, I had a great experience. When it came time to applying to the Academy I knew I was going to have to have my ducks in a line because it's competitive. There's a lot of people trying to get in. But looking back I mean, I've been all over the world now at this point, but Texas always feels like home.   Naviere Walkewicz I love that you have your roots. So talk about what you were like as a kid. Were you really active in sports? Where are you — you kind of have the social media side, so, are you really interested in some of the dramatic arts? Like, tell me about what that looked like?   Sam Eckholm Yes, sports were always a big part of my family. My dad was actually a basketball player here at the Air Force Academy. My uncle played on the football team as well. So, they were huge athletes. I was always, growing up, I was playing tennis, basketball, golf with my dad, my brothers. I have two other brothers as well. We're all super competitive. Probably, I think what also helped me just realize the Academy was a great school because you know, what other college do you go into where everyone's so competitive and athletic, and sports are built into the curriculum? So yeah, I mean, I would say that was an important part of growing up. My dad especially instilled a lot of values he learned at the Academy in serving. And it's just so cool looking back now, because I didn't realize at the time what those were, and then you go through four years here, you go through five years active duty, and you're like, “OK,” that's why he was the way that he was. When I was actually here at the Academy, I had this mental checklist of stories, he told me, and I will try to like check them off as I also accomplished them. So, you know, his basic training experience, right? Him jumping off the 10-meter board and water survival; him going through survival training and getting some of that experience and jumping out of an airplane. It's really fun for me to experience those as well because those were the stories I had grown up with back home in Texas.   Naviere Walkewicz Wow. So, a house of three boys. Where were you in the lineup?   Sam Eckholm I was a middle child.   Naviere Walkewicz And so did your other brothers want to go to the Academy as well or that wasn't...   Sam Eckholm So my older brother Ben, he originally was interested. In fact, you know, he's only a year and a half older. So, we were only one grade apart. And I remember he went to one of those service academy, congressional just learn more about it, right. And he went with a couple of his buddies, and I think they turned him off from it, because they came back and said, “Oh, I ain't doing that. We're going to Texas A&M. We're gonna' have fun.” But I remember he came back and had this pamphlet he got from it. And I stole it from his bedroom. And then I started looking at it. And I was like, “OK, if he's not going to do that, I think this is something I want to do.” And we can talk more about that, obviously, but my brother did end up going a different route. He went to Texas A&M, not in the core there, just kind of a normal student. Little brother, he's like seven years younger than me. He was always interested in the academies, but you know, as he grew up, I think he navigated a little bit more towards another route as well. So, to answer your question, I was the only one who ended up going into an academy and serving, but they're still incredibly close to me. And I actually have this hilarious photo of my older brother. He came to visit during Parents Weekend. I was like a junior. And during Parents Weekend here at the Academy, my family would actually like stay at the Academy because all the other kids and their parents would go to Boulder, go to Garden of the Gods or the Broadmoor, whatever. And so, the Academy was completely empty. And so, it was kind of like this country club for my family. So, like, we would go down... And then you got like the golf course to yourself. You got these beautiful greens…   Naviere Walkewicz I could see you've got your stretch view…   Sam Eckholm Right, exactly. So, we would go down to like the athletic facilities and play tennis and just hang out and have fun. Anyway, there's this funny photo of my older brother. I gave him my PT uniform, the ringer tee and the shorts. And he like blended in as a cadet for the weekend. And it was really funny one day because retreat played and he was saluting. I'm like, “Well, they're gonna' think you're a cadet.” So, everyone's super close to me and the Academy, and they loved coming to visit. And I think in an alternate world, they would have all tried to come here too. But yeah, very close with the family.   Naviere Walkewicz That is outstanding. We love, hearing about the dynamics of kind of what your support network was like, what those influences were like in your life. You mentioned something about your dad sharing stories. What were those initial nuggets? I know you talked about the experiences they had, but what was he instilling with you and your brothers at that time when you were in those impressionable years?   Sam Eckholm Well, my dad is just one of the most like regimented individuals I know. He's very, very focused, you know. And now looking back, I think I just attribute so much from the Academy, and especially back in the '80s, you know, the way things were run and like how he did it, but you don't know that when you're a kid, right? Like, I heard the stories of the Academy. And I don't know, I think when I was young, I didn't think they were cool. And then as you get a little older, they are kind of cool, but you don't want to tell him they're cool, kind of like shove that in the back of your head. And then now I'm like, “Wow, that was really, really cool.” So yeah, I remember there was this photo we had in our house. I don't know if it was above our piano are just on some dresser and it was him in pilot training and his flight suit standing next to T-38. And I thought that was the coolest thing growing up. I mean, he looked like Tom Cruise from Top Gun. And so I literally to go to my room, I would walk past that every single day. And that photo is just like, I don't know, it's cemented in my mind of, “Wow, that was so cool.” And, you know, at the time, I did think “Hey, I'm going to be a pilot. I'm going to do this,” and learned obviously down the road there's so many opportunities to serve in the Air Force. But yeah, I mean, it was just such a cool thing to be able to say, “My dad went to the Academy. My dad's a pilot,” you know? Other people's parents, whatever they did, you know, still interesting. But to be able to say that was always so cool. I just wanted to be able to experience that, wanted to be able to do something different from my friends in high school, being able to have my dad actually, which I know a lot of applicants don't have someone who served in the Army. I'm trying to change that with the work I do to make everyone feel like they understand what they're getting into. But that was huge for me. And it was fun. I still remember I would text him through every milestone we had at the Academy, whether it was Recognition or Ring Dance or commitment. And he would kind of share where he was back then or a photo he had. And yeah, it was cool.   Naviere Walkewicz That's really beautiful. And, and it makes me think about how we capture now, and I think this might have been, this was happening during your class as well, but we had WebGuy, the WebGuy team actually capturing moments. And so, it's probably neat that he actually sees some of those while you're texting him. And those you know, those listening, the texting ability is not something we had back in the day when I was there. We just had the red phone booth to try to get your like five minutes to call.   Sam Eckholm I can't imagine that.   Naviere Walkewicz Yeah, it's wonderful. I think we preserve so much of the experience for our cadets.   Sam Eckholm Yeah, there's still a bit now where the family almost gets to feel a little bit of that assurance with us. Why are they still writing like letters home?  Pen to paper. Yeah, and you know, stamp. And yeah, WebGuy, I think was my mom's like, saving grace during basic as many moms out there. Yeah, shout out, Mom. I know you liked WebGuy. I always tried to smile when I saw a camera. So, she knew I was I could see how I was doing even though I sometimes was not that I was like, yeah.   Naviere Walkewicz So let's talk about life at the Academy. So, you were direct entry. Were you an intercollegiate recruit or just kind of in and started?   Sam Eckholm No, yeah, I was direct entry. I was very, very fortunate to get the principal nomination from my congressman who did that method out of Dallas. It was an incredibly competitive area. I mean, there were like 60 kids just from my area trying to get in and oh man, I was so stressed going in because I knew how bad I wanted it. I knew I looked great on paper. But the problem was 60 other kids also look really good on paper. So, the interviewer really helped me out there. I was able to talk about family experiences got the principal nomination, so I knew I was going to have my shot. So yeah, direct entry got here. And it's kind of funny because having a dad and uncle who went here, I thought I knew everything right? I had probably watched every single video and read every article, looked at everything on the Academy, I was obsessed. The second I got here, day one or Day Zero as they call it, like the bus ride here.   Naviere Walkewicz Tell me about your experience on the bus.   Sam Eckholm Oh, man, this is a lot different. Well, the bus is, I mean, I knew what was coming. I'd seen every single video, but it hits you different when you're there and they're screaming in your face. The footprints was really rough for me. I've told this story before, because then — I don't know what they do now — but they broke it up by your basic flights and your squadron. So, Cobras is what I was in. And so, all my future flight members were with me and we're on the footprints. And an upperclassman is — [there's a] crazy photo; I can send it to you guys — but just someone screaming at me, right? And I don't know what happened. But I think they lost track of me. So [I'm on the] footprints when the rest of my squadron was sent up the ramp to begin their in-processing, I got sent to the back of the footprints line to kind of do it again.   Naviere Walkewicz Really?   Sam Eckholm Yeah. And so, they did that for a few cadets. So, I got sent to do it again. And the crazy part is I went through that, I got sent a third time. But, and this is like the whole footprint spiel again. The whole “Get on attention.” So, I had like triple the footprints experience and then for the rest of the day because my squadron had already in process, I was so far behind. It was now like, “Are you lost, basic!” Like, I was that guy the whole time in the morning. So, it's just when I finally got there, at the end of the day, like to my squadron, I was already known and had the reputation, like the lost basic. You know it was for next six weeks, which turned into the next year, I was trying to get rid of that reputation that I was the lost basic, but hopefully now I've gotten rid of that.   Naviere Walkewicz All right. We'll leave that one alone. That's a fantastic story. Yeah. Wow. All right. So, let's talk about your life at the Academy. I know where you graduate from Squadron 28, legacy squadron, right? Let's talk about some of your experiences, both from the cadet perspective — athletics, academics, wherever you'd like to take us — but also let's weave in a little bit of some lessons you've learned about yourself during that time in leadership.   Sam Eckholm Yeah, I started out in CES-14 Baby Cobra. I don't know, I think what they're now doing like one and then three years. One and three. Yeah. I always knew that's what I wanted to do. Because like, literally, even when I was growing up, my dad had his A-jacket, and I saw the Blackbirds patch. And that was really cool. But yeah, I mean, my first two years were definitely different from my last two years, I always tell people, the first two years, I was discovering who I was both as a person but as a cadet, right? Like, you come in thinking you're going to do something and have a path and major in this and do this when you graduate. But it was so much information coming at me of here's what you can do, here are all the opportunities. And that's one thing, I'm really proud of myself for that — I didn't feel like I had to follow a certain path. You know, when I came in, I thought I was gonna' fly, I was gonna' be an engineer, I'm gonna' do this. And that's amazing for all the cadets who want to do that and are excited about it. But I knew I was excited about other stuff, too. You know, you mentioned kind of social media photography, that sort of stuff. I had that kind of in the back of my head, I just had to figure out a way how to make that work in the Air Force, right? Because I had no idea when I came in that was something you could kind of do. So the first two years were a lot of discovery, right? I did not, and this was kind of strategically, do any clubs or anything the first two years. I kind of regret that looking back, but I thought I just needed to be in the squadron with my flight. Versus now, I always encourage people at the Academy take advantage of the clubs, take advantage of the extracurricular stuff, because, I mean, you've formed so many friendships there.   Naviere Walkewicz I don't know if you agree, because you did a lot, right? And I definitely agree, I was not a recruited athlete. And so, I think I explored a lot of different lanes. But you know, one of the things that when you were talking, I was thinking about this, because when people see you and hear you now, you just have so much confidence. Did you always have that? Or is there a time when maybe that was not the case as a cadet?   Sam Eckholm Yeah, in high school, you know how it goes, right, you're at the top of the top in high school, especially someone going into the Academy. To go to the Academy., most students are presidents of their classes, or whatever. And so, you go from the top, and then you're dropped very quickly and humbled when you get to the Academy. So, I think I definitely lost a little bit of that. But then I built it back up. And I think that's kind of the goal of the Academy, right? They're trying to build back up leaders; you start as a follower. So, by the time I left, we can get to that, I was a squadron commander of CES-28. And that is, to this day, one of the most rewarding experiences. I learned the most about myself and talk about confidence. Getting up there every morning, talking to over 100 of your peers as their quote-unquote, cadet leader. I mean, that right there to this day, I'm like, if I can do that, and be able to tell other students my age, what they have to be doing, I can do anything.   Naviere Walkewicz Peer leadership is definitely a challenging type of leadership. What did you learn about yourself in that? Can you share a story where you're like, well, am I really cut out for this?   Sam Eckholm Well, it's hard because you have all different types of cadets, all different types of classes. Everyone has their thing that interests them. And let's be real, I mean, you're up here, right? You're not in the real Air Force, yet. You've been appointed this position. And so, some cadets are like, OK, come on. I mean, literally, two weeks ago, he was just, you know, Sam, and now he's like, oh, cadet first class at home squadron commander, cadet lieutenant colonel. So, with the younger classes, it's easier, because the rank structure, they kind of understand, but to your senior class, it's your peers. So, my mentality for that is that I was just going to try to be someone that everyone could relate to, that had everyone's best interest in mind. So, I would take so long for any decision or working with my AOC, just trying to advocate for what everyone wanted. I didn't see myself as higher, better, above anyone. It was just, I'm going to be the spokesperson for everyone. And I'm gonna' work as hard as I can to make sure everyone's happy. And I think there's a lot of lessons you can take from that approach. Of course, not every leadership position, you have the ability to do that. But at the Academy, I don't know, I think that was just a really cool opportunity to kind of explore and find out how that works. And I learned a lot from that. And because I've had opportunities to lead in my Air Force career and beyond, I still pull from those experiences. I'm like, “Well, this would maybe work here.” But yeah, I don't know. Did you have any opportunities to do the leadership stuff, the higher level here? It's so unique, there's nothing else like that.   Naviere Walkewicz No, it really is unique. And I think one of the things that, when our listeners are always looking for are those little nuggets. So you learn so much, you know. What is one takeaway from a pure leadership perspective that you could say, “I've leaned back into multiple times?” What would that be? Putting yourself in other people's shoes is big.   Sam Eckholm It's kind of hard to remember that because you're getting information in from your leader, usually from your leader, right, your boss, they're telling you one thing, it's hard for them to see two layers down how that's going to impact everyone else. So I would always just try to put myself in other people's shoes. “OK, if I do this,  how's that going to make this person feel?” But the other thing is you can never make everyone happy. And I had to come to grips with that. And that's hard for me because I'm the type of person — it like messes me up if I know someone's mad at me or upset or doesn't think I'm doing the right thing. But you learn real quickly, you grow up really quickly and realize that if 90% is good, I mean, that might even be because that might be the best 99 whatever number you want. 15 a year and I'm like, well, this is working. You can't make everyone happy. And I still struggle with that, because you want everyone to be happy, especially with what I'm doing now on social media, when there's millions of people watching what I'm doing, and you look at comments, and you're kinda' like, “Man, I tried so hard on this, and I could have done it differently.” But then if you change it for one person, and someone else isn't gonna' be happy… so thick skin, that's the biggest thing I had to realize I wouldn't be where I am today if I let that bother me. And I remind myself that that's better to be where I am today and have thick skin then be hiding in the corner because I was scared. I couldn't make everyone happy.   Naviere Walkewicz So that is a great lesson. Thank you for sharing that. So, the Academy was great. You had some wonderful leadership experiences. Can you share maybe one of your favorite things about the Academy while you were a cadet?   Sam Eckholm Yeah, well, you asked about clubs. Oh, and I mentioned I didn't do anything really the first two years, which is true. That completely changed. When I switched squadrons, I got super involved, still within the squadron, but also within the Academy. I was on the mock trial team. That was so fun. Gave me an opportunity to travel on the weekends. I ended up being a legal studies major because of that and really enjoyed just everything that came from that. You know, I love talking. I don't know if you knew that I love speaking and talking with other people, communicating. And in mock trial and legal studies, our exams were literally us standing at a podium delivering a fake appellate speech or like you're talking to a judge and that was really cool. And then being able to compete and travel by talking and being a lawyer was fun. And then I also had the opportunity to be on the women's basketball practice team, the scout team. So I was a basketball player in high school, not at the level they play at the Academy. But I was like, “Well, how can I continue doing this?” And so someone, one of my classmates, is like, well, the women's team they look for former high school players to come into rugby, the scout team, run their upcoming opponents' defensive and offensive plays against them. And I tried out for that and made it and that was such a blast. I never knew we do that. And I had a schedule. I was able to go down there — we got the merch, the swag bag. It was fun. So, I tell everyone I was on the women's basketball team. Some kind of laugh, but it was the most amazing opportunity I had. And there's so many things like that at the Academy. By the time I was a firstie — people ask if I had any experience with photography, video, social media while here. One answer I say is “I started the CS 28 Blackbirds Instagram account,” which is still running strong, right? But then I actually worked with my then-physics instructor to start a photography class for the Academy. So as part of the Fine Arts Department, is the first time it was ran. And it was an elective I was able to sign up for when I was a first-year. And yeah, I mean, we literally had like 30 cadets take this course and raised enough money that we were able to get everyone a camera. Our professor, Col. Maddox at the time, she's still in, but she was amazing. She taught us and instructed us because she had her own business doing wedding photography and stuff like that. And that was so cool. I remember going to class, it felt like I was at a normal school. I was taking a photography class. And so that was when I was graduating going into public affairs, as my career, realized that I'm going to keep this up. And it was just cool to be able to do something like that, that you don't think the Academy has. We've got some cool classes that you might not expect.   Naviere Walkewicz No, that's wonderful. And I think our listeners are really excited to hear that too. And before we go on to your career in the Air Force and that transition, I wanted to go back to a little bit about the intercollegiate experience because I think you have a really unique perspective, right? You are not a recruited athlete, but you experienced really diving into the Academy from that aspect. And then you got to have the schedule and understand the rigors of what our intercollegiate athletes experience and you will hear this term: “Teezo Gap.” What's your perspective on that? You know, for people that are just listening, I think that's a fascinating topic that we haven't really explored.   Sam Eckholm Yeah, was a cadet for the first two years not being an intercollegiate athlete, the Teezo Gap, as you mentioned, it's a completely different perspective. And I'll be honest, sometimes you buy into it, you're like, I mean, these athletes are having an easier — they get to go do this and travel and wear civilian clothes as freshmen with their team, you know, miss all the mandatory squadron events and the training sessions and so I'll be honest, you do have some of that perception. Now flashing forward, that completely changed when I got a taste of it. And this was a small taste of it. I mean, I was a scout team player. And it wasn't every day, I had to go down half the week because we had two different teams that did it. But even then, I can't imagine what they have to go through. Because you go down there, your schedule is modified to where you don't have afternoon classes. So, after lunch, you're kind of going down there. And then it is practice meetings, dinner, sometimes meetings again, and then homework, and then rinse and repeat. And at the same time, sure, maybe they're missing some squadron stuff, but you know what, they're not missing anything academically, that's the same. So I have so much appreciation for all of the intercollegiate athletes at the Academy and experiencing that gave me more of an appreciation. And I just, again, it's something you can't fully appreciate until you have done it yourself. But for those students that can be so successful on the field and then still graduate from this. I mean, I know I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. So, to answer your question, it is something that I think people who aren't aware, or who are listening and you know, might have that perception that it exists. I think we need to work to change that a little bit. Because these people are incredible.   Naviere Walkewicz And again, it's just I mean, you can probably share more. So, you went through that. Like, it's fascinating. I really appreciate you sharing that. Yeah. I think that's a wonderful thing for people to hear. You know, some of the perceptions versus realities. So, let's talk about when you were in the military. So, you graduated the Academy, what AFSC did you get? Yeah, so public affairs?   Sam Eckholm Yes. 35P1. When I was a firstie, I kind of knew I was going to not do the pilot thing. Multiple reasons. People asked me why. Couple: I wasn't even fully medically qualified at the time. I had some color vision stuff. Probably could have gotten a waiver for that eventually. But you know, there was a long process. So that's where I first started to think, “Hey, maybe there's something else I can do, too. I just loved being on the ground talking to people, there was more I wanted to do than just fly. And so, I was trying to find a career field that allowed me to still be around aircraft, still be bebop and buzzing around and doing my thing but also having an impact. So, after my sophomore year, when we went on ops Air Force, I went to Travis Air Force Base and part of that trip, I got to shadow the public affairs career field. And while I was there, I still remember the feeling of like walking through the doors at the PA building, which was right by the wing staff,. They had like a full suite of Apple MacBook computers, airmen on Lightroom and Photoshop and editing videos. The San Francisco 49ers were in town to do a base visit and PA was out there escorting them. I got to interview the commander who was about to PCS and write a story on him. This was all in the span of like three days. And I was like, “What other career field is there where you can do all of this?” It's like kind of a jack-of-all-trades job. And so that visit, I was like, “Wow, this is really, really cool. I want to do this!” Now the next part was like, “Well, how do I do this?” So, I came to find out there was only five slots. Since I've graduated, I've heard some years they have had no slots, some years a couple slots. So, I don't really know how it works anymore. But I would go up to Harmon Hall, literally every day the first semester of my first year, second of my two-degree year, and I would just talk with, then at the time Lt. Col. Allen Herritage, who is the PA director. Now it'd be like, “Sir, how can I learn more about this job?” I was like, “How can you help me? How can you help me get this?” It's all about connections. And regardless of whether or not that actually did help, I know two things are true. I went up there every day and I talked. And then I also got public affairs. So, I just, I worked really hard, though. I mean, I worked so hard in school, and I had a good class ranking. And that definitely helped me and just networking as much as I could to let a FPC know that this is something that I want. So yeah, I dropped public affairs. I was so excited. I remember our squadron put on this awesome AFSC drop release with Nerf guns and blindfold maze stuff. And when I saw that, I was like, “This is gonna' be fun five years, or longer.” Yeah, I didn't know looking back. I mean, you know, we can get into that too. But it's a career field that is fun for life and I'm so glad I got it.   Naviere Walkewicz Wonderful. So let's talk about that. And let's talk about that career field and some of your experiences both from the experience perspective, but maybe where there was some leadership lessons you took as a public affairs officer.   Sam Eckholm Yeah, well, I was kind of thrust right into it. So, I got stationed at Langley Air Force Base. I was, I think the only one from my class, maybe one other who even got sent there. So, it's not like pilot training or a lot. You know, if you got your buddies, it's kind of like a little reunion and you run it back for the next couple years. I was off on my own, so to learn quickly what life was like, to be just Sam as an officer, as a lieutenant, it's like the first week when I was out there we were doing unit PT with my PA shop, running around the base track, which those who have been to Langley, it's a beautiful ride on the coast on the running ground. It's amazing running the flightline. And out of nowhere an F-22 took off just full-burner. But it wasn't a normal takeoff. It started doing maneuvers and rolls and just putting on this spectacle of a show. I mean, my ears were like, “Oh my gosh,” and I turned to my boss at the time. I was like, “What is going on right now?” She's like, “Oh, Sam, that's the F-22 demo team. They travel the air shows around the world just like the Thunderbirds, and they put on shows and help recruit and they actually take one PA person from our office to travel with them each year.” It was at that second I knew that's what I want to do. That right there, is what I want to do. And flash forward a few months, the opening came up. I was completely inexperienced at the time, but I pitched myself and sold myself and the commander at the time, Lt. Col. “Loco” Lopez, who's now out in Hawaii, is the squadron commander for the F-22 unit. And he's been a big inspiration to me. I interviewed with him and I was showing him a YouTube channel. “Look, I can edit, see, like, I can take photos, look at my Instagram.” And he hired me in for the next two years. And every year I was like, “What is real life?” I mean, we were at shows all over the world. I went to Dubai, Singapore, Chile, Hawaii, I mean, Alaska, pretty much every base here in the U.S. got to meet my classmates who were stationed there, got to run all the social media, do all the videos for the team, the coolest jet in the world. It's the F-22 — blew up their social media, just made it my goal to do what I called “no life.” Literally, for two years it's all I did was live, breathe F-22 demo team, and just really wanted to give it my all. And that was so fun. Now to go back to the leadership side of things: Imagine being a butter bar, a second lieutenant now thrust on a team, which has national-media-level attention. I remember I was at a show in Chicago andI just got called in to do an interview because our pilot wasn't available. And I'm literally in front of thousands and thousands of people having to just talk about the Air Force mission and these high-level questions that I was like,”Oh my gosh,” so back to your question of being confident. Like, that's probably where it came from. I just had to learn and had to fake it ‘till I made it. But what a fun experience for a young lieutenant and just something I'll never forget.   Naviere Walkewicz Wow. Well, I think something I took from what you said as well as you identify very quickly, when there's something that you really want to do and you make a path to get there. And I think in your relentless pursuit, in a way that is really convincing. And I think that's a lesson right? You have to put in the work, you obviously can't just only be talk, you have to be able to show like, you can put some cred behind it. And I think that's a lesson where you're able to share with folks, “Hey, if you're really interested in something, go all in for it.” And to your point, “and then live it.” Yeah, do that. soak it all in. So I think that's really inspirational. Were there any tough times you had as a public affairs officer?   Sam Eckholm Tons. PA, it's not always the good side of things, too, right? We really exist for the most part for the crisis communication, right? When something bad happens, to communicate that as well. And so, it doesn't matter if it's the highs or the lows, you still gotta' get out there and talk to people and make things happen. So, luckily, when I was on the team, you know, we didn't have anything catastrophic, any mishaps like that, but I know people who have right I mean, [I've] had mentors, PA world or former Thunderbird PAs when they've had crashes and there's a lot that goes on there. So, we always have to be prepared for that. And even though I didn't have to necessarily be thrust in that environment, that's still on your mind, you just have to be prepared. Now, the other thing was just tough with being in this lifestyle for two years is that when you're constantly gone, so we are TDY I mean, like, literally 300 days a year. And so, it's hard to continue to have the same motivation every single day when it's just the same show, monotonous, like doing everything day in and day out. And I think that's a lesson anyone can learn in the Air Force or beyond, you know, because a lot of the times it, it is repetitive. So, I would always look for ways to make it not repetitive. And for me if we're going to a different show, as a photographer, videographer making content, I would always try to do something different. I would always try to focus in on a different element of the story. So instead of just focusing on the pilot in the jet every time, I would tell behind-the-scenes stories of our maintainers, of our aircrew flight equipment specialists, of the fans who came and traveled across the country to watch and, doing tours with them and I would arrange a ton of school visits and talk to Civil Air Patrol units in JROTC and really just focus on the community relations and the recruiting side of things. And there's a lot I had to work with and that was really fun for me to mix and match and that was the way I just stayed motivated and still had fun with it. And even to this day, I'm always trying to one-up the last thing I did and branch out and evolve and just make everything interesting. And I think the viewers kind of understand that and appreciate it. And that's always my goal is for no one to ever click on a video of mine or see what I'm doing and be like, “Oh, that's kind of the same thing.” I want it to always be exciting.   Naviere Walkewicz I can absolutely appreciate that. And it seems like that kind of pace is, I mean, how do you maintain that? So maybe my question would be for you, Sam, what is your outlet? Because if you live, breathe as a leader, right, if you you expect a lot from your people, and you always want the best and you want something new, how do you maintain that level of give? And so, what's your outlet?   Sam Eckholm Yeah, well, kind of the first part of what you asked, I also had to realize that just because I'm this way doesn't mean everyone's this way, right? So, if you're a leader, and you are 100% committed and want it to be your entire life, that doesn't mean everyone's going to be that way. And I had to realize that because at times that can be frustrating, if you're leading a team and you're gung-ho about it, but like, OK, maybe they aren't, well, that's OK, you know, you need to, again, put yourself in their shoes and see what motivates them. And I learned that lesson as well, even back to when I was a squadron commander, I'd pitch an idea and I was so excited. And I can tell him that everyone's [not] gonna' be as excited as you, Sam. But yeah, my outlet, I mean, a lot of different stuff at the time, you know, I was just so excited about doing what I was doing. So as weird as it sounds, my outlet was my work. And that's something not everyone understands. But I actually felt depressed if I wasn't continuing to work, because I knew there was a time limit on how long I would have this opportunity. So, I was like, “Well, I'm going to keep working hard now.” And as I've moved on, I have found a healthy balance between work and other things. So, you know, friendships are incredibly important, especially other people in the space with what I'm doing, being able to talk with them and how they are handling stress levels. Because not everyone can relate especially to what I was doing and am doing. So other people in the space, in the industry, we're all dealing with the same things. So that's something I tell people all the time is, “Other people who are in your world — those are some awesome friendships you can have, because they understand what you're going through. Not everyone does.” That's a classic example of when people talk about the Academy, you go home on a winter break, none of your friends understand what you're going through. It's really, really hard, you know? Who does? Your classmates at the Academy. You go through that with them. And so that has been a huge thing for me: other people who have gone through what I have, like, we're in it together. And those are some times when I really feel like I can sit back, relax, and the stress is taken off.   Naviere Walkewicz Now that's really helpful. And I think I did chuckle in my head a little bit when you said, you know, “Actually, my outlet is my work.” But I think when you're doing your thing that you're wired to do and your passion, that makes sense.   Sam Eckholm Yeah, it's both fulfilling and exhausting. I mean, I love to travel to like, I do normal things as well. But in some way, even then I battled the whole, like, well, what can I be doing, especially when you're a full-time, have your own company entrepreneur. That was a huge adjustment for me. Because it's not like you have a salary job where there is some end at some point to kind of go home. It's like, well, you could always be doing more, right? You could always be working. And I've had to struggle with that sometimes, because it's like, I could keep working, keep working. So that's something I've learned and doing better at still to this day. But yeah, it's interesting.   Naviere Walkewicz So, let's talk about that transition. You know, you knew there was a time period on that F-22 demo team, and the PA role. But when did, you know, “I think I'm going to be moving out of this into my own kind of work.”   Sam Eckholm Yeah, so once I finished the F-22 team, I had to move on with my career. They don't let you do something in the Air Force forever, totally understood that. But I wasn't done personally inspiring, making content. I had developed kind of a following along the way of people who were just interested in what I was doing. So, I would kind of take my free time. I always made it my goal — I was like, I'm going to stay focused on the PA job. I never want anyone to be able to look at lieutenant at home and be like, “He's not locked in on this PA job. He's not focused. He's interested in these other things.” So, I would make that my goal. But my free time, my leave, my time on the weekends, instead of normal hobbies people do, I would make videos. That was my thing. And so, my next assignment, I went to Scott Air Force Base, I was 375 Air Mobility Wing, and that was a demanding and fun job. And I kind of still had this thing going on the side. It got up to the point where it's at the end of my Academy commitment, and I had a tough decision to make, right? I loved being in the Air Force. I was a captain at the time. I was excited. But as you rank up, you get more responsibilities, understandably, and I knew that I did not want to let that lack if I was going to stay in the Air Force. I did not want my airmen — I did not want people to think I was distracted doing something else. But I loved this other thing as well. So really, what I had to decide is, “Where am I having the biggest impact in the Air Force?” And as weird as it sounds, right, because you think of serving — most of the time people think like, in uniform active duty. Well, I think of service in many different ways, right. And I actually felt, and I know this is true, that I could serve the Air Force, the military, our country, better on the outside, continuing to inspire people by doing these videos, making this content, showing people what life was like, inspiring all these kids on the outside, being able to go at that with 100% of my time. And luckily, that wasn't just a personal decision I made. I was having conversation with like, the highest levels of leaders in Air Force recruiting and public affairs explaining this as well. And that's just what I decided I wanted to do. And it was scary. It's very scary going from a job, one that I had worked since I was a freshman in high school to get to in the Air Force, to now kind of giving that up to do this other thing. But we're really helping the viewers, it wasn't giving it up to me, it was just doing it in a different way. I would say I'm still connected now more than I was even when I'm in with what I'm doing. I'm not in uniform, you know, I don't have my CAT card anymore. But I am serving more than I ever thought I would be around the units traveling to bases every single week filming what I'm doing. So that's kind of what helped me make that decision. And it was the right decision. And to this day, the comments I see from kids, the people I've been able to help and resonate with, it's crazy. And it's something that probably wouldn't have been able to happen if I stayed in just with the amount of you know, stuff I would have had to do on the normal job side. Right?   Naviere Walkewicz Wow. So, you talked about impact. And that was really important to you. What's one of years or maybe a couple of your most favorite, impactful moments that you've had since moving into the entrepreneurial side of things?   Sam Eckholm Yeah, I mean, it's hard sometimes when you're like a video creator, because what you see is numbers on a screen, right? You see views, you see comments, which can be really inspiring too. But sometimes, you know, you miss the in-person interactions because you're traveling and it's the videos people see. But I always, even to this day, a couple times a year, I do like in-person events, I just went out to an airshow and was in San Antonio and I did a couple of these previous years. And it's a different feeling when you're out there. And there's tens, dozens of people, who are like literally waiting in line just to say hi, to take a photo to tell me that like, hey, these videos are the reason they want to join or have joined or have inspired them. It's crazy. And that to me keeps me going. And that was so, so impactful. And you know, I have a folder on my computer. On my phone I have like screenshots of all the messages I've gotten, because when I'm having a hard day or when I'm like, “Man, this is tough,” I can look back at those and be like, “Well, this is why it's all worth it. And this is why I do the things that I do.” And yeah, it's cool being a creator who's not just in it for themselves. And I try to tell people that really what I'm doing is to inspire other people. It's tough. It probably looks really cool when you see all the things I'm doing. And that is fun. But it is a lot. But I know the impact that's possible. I remember when I was a freshman in high school looking for content online, and there wasn't too much of it. And I wanted to change that. And I know Naviere, we've worked so much together and you've seen the stuff I've done and you know how much it means to me. So just being able to see and hear from people, it means everything.   Naviere Walkewicz Yeah, so what's your, is there a story, a video that you've done that just, it just kind of sits right into your heart like this one is just so special? I mean, we probably have so many, but is there one that you just feel has really resonated with, you know, youth or just that level of impact? Is there one you can speak to?   Sam Eckholm Yeah, well, I'll give, I'll give kind of two. So, one that is incredibly special to me in a personal way. I actually got to go back and do a video on the KC-135 and I brought my dad out there for that. Yeah, that was something I always wanted to do. And he's great. I was a little nervous. I was like, “How is he going to be on camera?” But he knocked it out of the park to the point where some comments were like, “He needs to come to every video like that. You need to take over the channel at this point. Everyone loves you so much.” But it was so fun. I mean, he studied for weeks on the facts of the aircraft. He was an instructor for the instructors at the schoolhouse. It took him a few minutes, but literally after half an hour, he knew his way around that aircraft so well and was teaching the current pilots out there some things that they didn't know. Anyway, so I look back — that video is like a full-circle moment for me. And that resonated with a lot of people too, who just enjoyed seeing my inspiration and have some people who look at me as their inspiration. Like it's just really, really cool to see outside of that. I mean, I would say a really personal project of mine was when I actually got to come out here to the Academy and do a complete tour of the grounds and the campus and facilities. With the audience I've been able to build, a lot of people know me as an Academy grad. And so they reached out asking me questions about the Air Force Academy. “What it's like to apply?” How they can get in. And it's hard to answer all of those questions because that's all I'd be doing if I did it. So, I was like, “Well, what's a way I can put this message out to everyone?” And so, you know, I worked with your team, worked with the Academy team, and we came out here for a week and filmed what I think is the most beautiful school ever. And I just wanted to show that and that video to this day is, I don't know, 1.2-something million views. And you go scroll through those comments, the amount of people who didn't know it exists — which probably sounds crazy to us, right? — that now know and can see all of these cool things you would have access to and can do if you're cadet, I mean, I think that video is going to have returns and just inspire people for years to come. That was such a big project I wanted to do to get back to my school and to show other people, “This school did this for me. You guys need to understand what it can do for you, too.” So, I'm really proud of that one. I have a lot of people reaching out to me about that still to this day. Every single week, you know, “Hey, Sam, I want to go here. I watched this video. How can I do it?” And I'm like, “Alright, well, let's talk. Here's what you need to start doing. You need to do this.”   Naviere Walkewicz I love that. So, it's really unique, your journey, right? Because you have been a leader of peers, of people, of airmen, etc. You've also been, I think, a leader of yourself, and you know, in part of how you navigate that. One of the ways I think our listeners really feel connected with our guests is, you know, life is pretty imperfect. What are some challenges you've experienced along the way in your life, just in your professional and personal life, that you have has felt as evolved you as an influencer as a leader, as someone who inspires you to share any with a group that makes them feel like, okay, Sam, I'm in? You know, I'm kind of like, Sam, you know, in some way, what would that be?   Sam Eckholm Yeah, I mean, like I said, it's one of the things I sometimes struggle with when you have an online presence is you kind of gravitate towards only showing the highlights. And that's just how the business works, right? I mean, I don't want to be putting out negative content all day. But then, you know, you're right. I mean, some people kind of see like, “Oh, everything seems to be going well.” I mean, that's not the case. Absolutely not, especially with what I was doing. There's a reason it's very hard to get into this space, especially being in the Air Force. I made some decisions that some might have said would hurt my career, right? Even going back to the demo team, that was a job that typically you don't do as a lieutenant, right. And I was told, “Hey, this might hurt your career going forward.” But I also knew that this was something I wanted to do. And I had goals in mind. And I was young and I just hated the idea that a decision I made when I was 23 years old would ruin my career. I was like, “There's no way that can be true. I'm so young, I've got so much opportunity.” And so, I'm glad I kind of listened to myself. And that was a big decision. But even along the way, making videos while being in the Air Force, I was writing the rules, because there weren't regulations for what you can and can't do. And I was having a lot of tough conversations with people. I'm like, “I'm trying to do the right thing here. You guys gotta help me, I see a lot of potential in this.” So that kind of lesson can be applied to, I think, anyone. A lot of people, I feel, want to do certain things or have dreams and goals. And neither one get talked out of it. To talk themselves out of it. Three, you just look at the negatives, and it gets in your head. And it makes it hard for people to kind of pull the trigger and do it. And I completely understand that. “Comfortable rut” — I kind of use that phrase — you get comfortable in thing and it's hard to break away from that. And so, I don't know, for me, that's the biggest advice I give people: If you have an end goal in mind, it's not going to be easy to get there. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it, right? I mean, especially being an entrepreneur. It's hard, it's a gamble, it's a risk. And you've got to prepare yourself. I never say, “Hey, just go take this without any plan or backup plan.” And I always had that in place. But you know, I guess I kind of am a risk taker in some world. And I know I have good intentions at heart. And I know what I'm trying to do. And I think that was really important is just having the backup plans, having a good background, having things set in place to where I'm able to do this and — I don't know, coming across as a good person has been huge. So, people hopefully watch my stuff and, like, “Sam's good. He's doing the right thing.”   Naviere Walkewicz So, I don't know, it's hard. If you have any specific advice on that, because you've done so much. But when people look at your stuff, hopefully you can kind of resonate and don't think it's all good all the time. But I think you'll come across as very approachable. I think it's lovely for them to hear in your own words some of the struggles that you have when you're thinking about your content when you're thinking about the delivery of it. They maybe don't get that glimpse, right? They just see the final product. I think it's good for listeners to hear that you've kind of had to advocate for yourself, trust in yourself. And I think you've shown a path of what belief and grit and, going back to your core of, “My intention is to create meaningful impact and do great things for our Air Force and for the future leaders,” right? I think you can always hang your hat on that with pride.   Sam Eckholm Yeah, and I always tell people like what you see as a finished polished video — like, the behind the scenes is crazy. It's like, cameras everywhere, months and months of coordination for the shots and for these approvals. We plan videos — like I'm planning now that you will see six months from now. That's how long it takes. And things change. When I first started out, and it was fun, it was a hobby, it was just what I was doing. And then now when it becomes like, a full-time job, and you have a team now I've got employees who rely on me, like things kind of changed with that. And, you know, definitely the advocating for yourself is something that sometimes hard to do. But it's, it's necessary. And so yeah, it's a lot of lessons I've learned, and I'm still learning. But I'm not going anywhere. I'm gonna' keep going hard.     Naviere Walkewicz So, love that. So, your dad and uncle were inspirations to kind of get you into the profession of arms, the Air Force Academy, who inspires you now? Do you listen to any particular leaders? Are there books you read when you have time? You know, what, what kind of fills your inspiration bucket, Sam?   Sam Eckholm Yeah. You know, it's crazy. It sounds, there's not necessarily like a, like a one specific person who inspires me. And that's just because I try to consume so much different stuff and take the best from all of those. So yeah, I'm constantly learning, right? If I'm not creating content, I'm watching other content for inspiration, listening to a ton of podcasts, like this one here. So yeah, there's so much we can take from different people and different leaders. It is hard a little bit in my case to find someone who's exactly done what I've done. But there's a lot of people who have done other things and kind of made it, like Col. Kim Campbell, I've been listening to her actually, like what she's been doing with her Air Force career and then afterward and like, I've actually never met her.     Naviere Walkewicz You feel like you've met her, right?   Sam Eckholm I actually tried to. Same thing with Michelle Karen-Mace. You know, she's not Academy grad, but she's all over the world. And we did similar things in our careers. And so, she's been awesome to talk to as well, in pretty much any Academy grad. And that's something that I really enjoy. Being a member of the Long Blue Line, we come from the same roots. And everyone's very intelligent and understands things. And I've just been able to have so much support with what I've been doing through the grad network, especially when I go out to different bases and units like grads, like, “Hey, Sam, what's up? I'd love to work with you.” And that's been really cool. So, yeah, I mean, a ton of different inspiration from a lot of different people. And, you know, hopefully, I can eventually be that inspiration for someone else who wants to do something similar to what I'm doing. That's exciting to draw inspiration not just from people, but experiences. And what you see, just you're constantly looking for, yes, kind of pieces.   Naviere Walkewicz That's pretty special. So, you know, let's talk about right now what is, you know, how are you in support of the Academy through what you're doing? Maybe kind of share with our listeners what that looks like.     Sam Eckholm I'm always trying to further the Academy mission with literally every video I produce. I'm always doing something else. So I had the awesome opportunity to partner with Air Force recruiting and we did a six-video series exploring different aircraft, different career fields, — one of my favorite videos we did is actually went down and experienced Air Force Special Tactics officer training for a week in Hurlburt. And I was literally hands and feet behind my back bobbing through the pool like going through selection that normal people train for years for, I had like a week of advance to go out there and do that. So I tried to put myself in uncomfortable situations to show other people what that's like. It was extremely brutal. And I think there's more of that coming down the road as well. As you know, one of the huge goals was to give back to people trying to go to the Academy and honestly level the playing field in my mind with people who maybe don't have graduates or parents who went to the Academy and worked extremely hard work with you guys on the Air Force Academy blueprint program to just have a resource out there where anyone can navigate the Academy application can know what they need to be doing in high school, and to know what to expect once they actually get to the Academy too, and that's been incredibly successful. I mean, we have over 300 atudents enrolled — over two dozen who've been accepted this past class.   Naviere Walkewicz I was going to ask: Have you seen any of those come through?   Sam Eckholm Yeah, we have. Well, this will be the first year. so they haven't entered yet because we launched last August, right? So yeah, I'm excited. There will be a little mafia of Blueprint students here at the Academy as well. And like I said, that was something — you get so man

Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre '96 opens up about how her leadership journey was transformed by a mis-step she once made that led her to introspection and clarity.  ----more---- SUMMARY Gen. Letendre and Doug Lindsay shared their insights on leadership development at the Air Force Academy. They emphasized the importance of resilience, failure, and mentorship in shaping effective leaders. The General highlighted the value of taking advantage of little opportunities and pushing boundaries, while Dr. Lindsay stressed the need for courage and finding one's voice in leadership. Both emphasized the importance of learning from failures and using them as opportunities for growth.   QUOTES "Little opportunities can become big opportunities, and you don't necessarily know what that big opportunity is going to be. And you don't necessarily recognize that the little opportunity that you have before you is one of those that's going to somehow blossom in the future." "You practice having that voice early in your career, you practice what it means to be candid, you practice what it means to speak up for the right thing. It doesn't actually get easier, just because you've got rank, it gets easier through practice." "You've got to find your voice. And oftentimes, when I talk to cadets, they're like, "Oh, well, easy for you to say, ma'am. You know, you've got a star on, of course, you've got a voice." But I think that unless you practice having that voice, early in your career, you practice what it means to be candid, you practice what it means to speak up for the right thing." "We want our grads to be better than we ever were. And I can say unabashedly that They are our second lieutenants who are graduating from this institution are better able on day one to take on the challenges that our nation has thrown at them." "I believe my role in our role as senior leaders at the Air Force Academy is to not necessarily predict the future with any certainty. I think I might know who our next adversary is going to be in in conflict. I do know, though, that it's going to be the mental agility in the capabilities and skill sets that we are providing both to our cadets, our first graduating class, but also something we talked about our second graduating class, which is those those faculty that are going to go back out into the Air Force and Space Force. It is that challenge of how do we help them be ready for whatever's coming their way? How do we future proof them?"   SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK  |  TWITTER  |  LINKEDIN  |  EMAIL     CHAPTERS 00:00  Introduction and Background 08:16  Life at the Air Force Academy 15:22  Career Progression and Lessons Learned 26:17  Graduate Involvement and Giving Back 32:25  Leadership Lessons 36:58  Connecting with the Air Force Academy     TAKEAWAYS Little opportunities can become big opportunities, so take advantage of opportunities and do your best. Develop your leadership skills by finding your voice and practicing speaking up, even on small matters. This will help you gain confidence. Focus on developing leaders of character by setting a good example and lifting others up. The Air Force Academy is focused on preparing cadets for the future through experiential learning, research, and partnerships with industry. Staying connected to your alma mater through events and social media is a good way to learn about new programs and opportunities to get involved.     BRIG. GEN. LETENDRE'S BIO Brigadier General Linell A. Letendre is Dean of the Faculty, U.S. Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs, Colo. She commands the 750-member Dean of Faculty mission element and oversees the annual design and instruction of more than 500 undergraduate courses for 4,000 cadets across 32 academic disciplines. She also directs the operation of five support staff agencies and faculty resources involving more than $350 million. General Letendre graduated from the Academy in 1996 as a Distinguished Graduate with a Bachelor of Science degree in Astronautical Engineering. After serving as an acquisition officer, General Letendre became a judge advocate through the Funded Legal Education Program. She graduated from the University of Washington Law School with high honors and was named to the Order of the Coif and the Order of the Barristers. She is barred at the U.S. Supreme Court, the Supreme Court of Washington, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces, and the Air Force Court of Criminal Appeals. Prior to this assignment, she served as the Permanent Professor and Head of the Air Force Academy's Department of Law. General Letendre previously served as a Staff Judge Advocate at Scott Air Force Base and also represented the Air Force in appellate review of all courts-martial as the Deputy Chief Trial and Appellate Counsel. Additionally, she previously served as the Legal Advisor for the DoD Comprehensive Review Working Group where she advised on legal and policy issues surrounding repeal of “Don't Ask, Don't Tell.” She also defended the Air Force in a range of federal civil litigation involving military personnel, served as Chief of Strategic Communication for The Judge Advocate General, and defended Airmen as an area defense counsel. - Image and copy credit:  USAF CONNECT WITH GEN. LETENDRE LINKEDIN  |  INSTAGRAM   ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!          FULL TRANSCRIPT   OUR SPEAKERS Guest, Brig. Gen. Linell Leyendre '96  |  Host, Dr. Doug Lindsay '92     Dr. Doug Lindsay  01:34 My guest today is Brigadier General Linell Letendre, Air Force Academy class of 1996 and Dean of the Faculty. The general oversees 750 faculty members in more than 500 undergraduate courses for 4,000 cadets across 32 academic disciplines. She also directs the operation of five support staff, agencies, and faculties with attendant resources valued at more than $350 million. General Letendre graduated the Academy, with Distinction receiving a Bachelor of Science degree in astronautical engineering. She served as an Acquisition Officer. She has been a Judge Advocate General and is barred at the US Supreme Court, Supreme Court of Washington, the US Court of Appeals for the armed forces and the Air Force Court of Criminal Appeals. Prior to her current assignment, she served as a permanent professor and head of the Air Force Academy's Department of Law will talk with General Letendre about her life prior to becoming a cadet and what her experience was like at the Academy as a cadet. We'll ask about the progression of her career from acquisitions, to the practice of law to the Dean of the Faculty. Finally, we'll ask the General to share some advice for leaders and a few takeaways for those who want to be leaders. General Letendre, welcome to Long Blue Leadership.   Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  02:47 Well, thank you, Doug. I'm excited to be here and I appreciate the invitation.   Dr. Doug Lindsay  02:51 Absolutely.  Well, let's kind of jump right in. Can you talk a little bit about what your life was like prior to the Academy and what it was like growing up with your family?   Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  03:00 Well, according to the cadets, that's talking about what happened in the stone age. But growing up, as a kid, I was not a military brat, but I was what we affectionately call a corporate brat. So we moved about every four to five years. With my father's job, he actually worked at the time for Rockwell International. And so as a family, similar to military families, we were pretty tight. I have an amazing younger brother named Paul. My parents, Dawn and Glenn. We did a lot of camping and hiking and enjoying being placed in a variety of states and places. What's interesting about a corporate brat versus a military brat, though is that you tend to enter into communities that aren't used to people arriving or aren't used to people moving in quite as often. And so I've actually found that my kids had a different experience, because they tended to be embraced by the military community. So that movement around kept us close as a nuclear family and just can't thank my folks enough for raising me with those those values - that belief in family, the importance of giving back to your community. I had a great childhood.   Dr. Doug Lindsay  04:25 And so with that kind of moving around, and I like that phrase of a corporate brat, right, because I think it allows us to think about that differently. Because we know the military moves around a lot, but we sometimes don't tend to think that other people do that as well. What were some of those influences that as you grew up that really had an impact on you? Obviously family was really important, but what else was there? Was it things you read, people you met experienced mentors, what was that part?   Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  04:52 I think that resiliency that you get when you're the new kid and it's October. I'm in class and you're going from algebra class to geometry class. And boy, you missed that first foundational set of proofs. And so that resiliency of, "It's going to be okay. Change is fine." You get uncomfortable with change of other things that kind of focused me. Yeah, you mentioned things that you read. We had different opportunities then. Each new library that we went to... My mom was a librarian. And so reading was vital, and something that was expected in my family. And one day in a new school, I walked into the elementary school's library, and I discovered a new section, it was called the biographies. And I decided in second grade that I was going to start with A and work my way through the alphabet, and was a little miffed when the librarian told me I could only check out two books, two books a week. So apparently, I was destined to be Dean at some point. But you know, what I learned from that is that by diving into others lives through reading their biographies, you learned as a young child that everyone comes from different experiences. Everyone has different challenges, and maybe yours aren't so insurmountable as you might think. And so I value that experience that I had, being able to move from community to community to to see different parts of the United States, and to really learn that people are people no matter where you're living.    Dr. Doug Lindsay  06:31 Those some great lessons, especially learning early on.  Were there any particular biographies that really kind of resonated with you that you kind of remember? Was it just the process of that discovery of people's journeys?    Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  06:43 Well, I will say I was a little keen on Amelia Earhart's biography. And so maybe that was an early indication that maybe someday I'd end up in the Air Force, although in second grade, I had no idea. And so those explorers, those people who are willing to push boundaries, to take risks, I've tended to be drawn to them a little bit more than others.    Dr. Doug Lindsay  07:06 And we'll come to that idea of kind of pushing boundaries and taking risks hearing in a little bit. So what was it that happened during that process that you said, Hey, this military thing might be okay, this Academy, that sounds like something? What was that process? Like, as you tried to think about what you wanted to do when you grew up?   Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  07:22 Well, I mentioned my dad worked for Rockwell International.  Believe it or not, he was in the automotive section. Not everyone thinks of Rockwell as building the space shuttle. But because he was in Rockwell, he got a model of the space shuttle, and he brought it home. And I was still in elementary school. I still have this model of the space shuttle. It has sat on my desk or in my office for my entire career as a reminder of what got it all started and, and as a kid I learned exactly how that space shuttle operated when the the boosters fell off. And that and the main engine, why they painted it and then didn't paint it. You remember all the changes that the space shuttle had. And that really got me started thinking about space. And as many little kids, I grew up deciding I was going to be an astronaut. And it was later at a corporate picnic that I ran into two high school boys. But they were probably at this point six years older than me. And they were going to this amazing thing called a service academy. One was going to West Point one was going to the Naval Academy. I had never heard of service academies before. We lived in East Tennessee. And I was like what are those? And then they started talking and I started researching a little bit. And, then, I was a smart kid. So I decided, "Well I don't want to go there. I want to go to the Air Force Academy." And so that actually from fifth grade on really became the dream for me that I wanted to come here to the Air Force Academy, major in astronautical engineering and then go on to be an astronaut. Well, I did the first couple and my study partner and classmate Jack Fisher, he did make it up into space. But I got to just watch him from with my two feet firmly planted on the ground.   Dr. Doug Lindsay  09:28 And let's talk about that a little bit. So getting to the Academy, that was where you want to go. That was kind of your vision you get here. Can you talk a little bit about maybe some of those highs and lows, lessons learned? What was that? Like, kind of now you're getting here, you're working along your path, your dream. And then all of a sudden, day to day life? What was that like? Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  09:46 Well, I think like many folks who arrive at the Academy, especially those of us who come from small towns, you are big deal, right, in a little bitty town. I came here from a different move. We were living in South Carolina at the time. Rock Hill, South Carolina. And when I got an appointment to the Air Force Academy, I mean, it was a high school assembly to hand me my appointment. It was front page news of the Rock Hill Herald. So it was a big deal. And then you arrive and, wow, you're with 1,300 other classmates. (1,300) is the size of our class when we started, not the size when we ended, but they were all big deals too. And it was humbling. It was humbling being around people who are just as dedicated, who had such amazing work ethic. And I can't say enough about my classmates from the class of 96. They're inspiring. They helped challenge you to be better than you thought possible. So we did have highs and lows. We had good times and challenging times. But through it all, we we bonded and we knew we'd be there for each other. You know, while I was at the Academy, I did a variety of things. You've already mentioned my major. But I was an instructor pilot, I was on the mock trial team, I got to participate in a number of leadership positions to include the spring semester Cadet Wing Commander, which was probably just the highlight of my time to be able to really practice leadership. How you mess up, how you get better, how do you inspire people. And I really credit the Air Force Academy for helping to round me out to provide those experiences where I was allowed to fail. But I was also allowed to pick myself back up to learn from it. And to move on.    Dr. Doug Lindsay  11:54 Going to that theme of resilience that you had mentioned earlier, is there a particular failure moment or time that you're like, "This is not who I want to be.", or, "This is not who I think I am." that you kind of caught yourself and allowed you to kind of move on to the next level?   Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  12:11 I'll give you a couple. One sounds little but I did learn from it. I was the cadet Wing Commander and the fourth class broke ranks and took the hill. And I knew that the then Deputy Commandant was going to be calling me up to his office asking why I didn't have control of the wing and etc., etc. And so what did I do beforehand? I called up the president of the fourth class, the class of 99. And I just yelled, and as I walked away I went, "Really? Was that, is that leadership? Is that setting the expectation that I want? Is that really how I'm going to behave as a lieutenant?" And it caused me to think about, we might need a different approach, we might need to think about how we develop fourth class cadets in a different way. And so I still remember that moment of, of being disappointed in myself, in my leadership approach. And I'll reflect on that sometimes of when things aren't going right. What are your obligations as a leader to set your people up for success? And it doesn't mean that you just pull them aside and yell at them. That's not how we work in our Air Force and Space Force today. Instead, we've got to set expectations. We have to hold folks and to accountability standards. But then we also have to understand why didn't we meet a particular mission set or a particular standard, and try to understand that a little bit deeper level. I'm just grateful that I had an opportunity to learn that, at least in that case, the hard way.    Dr. Doug Lindsay  14:13 Well, the hard way, but in a developmental way. Right? So being able to learn that now, like you said, until you got out on active duty and because when you kind of grow up in a system that becomes normal, right. And so, you know, had that been propagated forward that could have been, you know, the stakes could have been higher.   Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  14:30 Absolutely. And it's one thing that I'm I'm so proud of where the Academy has come in and where we're also heading. I see our cadets today and I'll just flash forward a little bit. We'll get back to your questions here in a minute. But let's flash forward to COVID. We knew that we were going to be sending the upper three classes home. And my husband who's also a classmate, Greg Letendre, he knew that we were going to make this announcement. And I'd given him the exact time that he was allowed to contact our sponsor cadets. We had two sponsor cadets. They were sophomores at the time. Three-degrees. And he called right after he knew the announcement was going to be made and said, "Do you need a ride? What? How can we help? Do you need a ride to the airport." And each of those three degrees said, "No, Mr. Letendre. Actually, we need to take care of our four-degrees. First, we're going to make sure they're all set, that they've got either a ride home or a trip to the airport, then we'll worry about ourselves." That's where I think the Air Force Academy has made just incredible strides in thinking about that service before self that what it means to lift others as a leader of character. And boy, I think we've just made amazing strides. And I can't wait to see where the Academy heads from here.    Dr. Doug Lindsay  15:55 Yeah, that's a pretty humbling story. As you kind of sit back and go, "Wow!" Just for them to embrace that even early on. Right? It's three degrees (that) go, "I've got some ownership, not just of myself, but in the development of those that have been put in my charge." Right? That's a pretty amazing opportunity to get in there and how you feel a little bit proud also, right? And you'll be able to watch that go through that they picked up on that because we know not everybody graduates with that same depth of appreciation I think of, right? So, that's very cool. Yeah. So you went to the Academy, had a lot of success, obviously. And then kind of went into acquisition, which is a little bit different. And with your astronautical engineering degree. So you spent your first few years in operations, and then between about 1998 and 2019, focused on the area of law and practicing that and a lot of leadership positions. Could you talk a little bit about kind of lessons learned along the way, what you did and how that kind of set you up to be the Dean of the Faculty, which may not have been a career goal of yours when you graduated? Right?   Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  17:00 No, not at all. I will say though that when I graduated from the Academy, what I did know, really, as a result of being a soaring instructor pilot... So, I love to teach. I love to lead and I love to teach. And so that idea of teaching, I found there were lots of opportunities to do that along the way. Absolutely. I was, after I graduated from law school, I was able to serve in any number of legal roles, from trial attorney to appellate attorney, advising commanders, leading legal offices. But at every stage, no matter how large the leadership job became, what I found that I fell back to over and over again, were those teaching skills. And and whether it's describing a legal challenge and how a commander can take risks, where that spectrum of options are, and really thinking through to make decisions. Those teaching skills were fundamental to at least my style of how I approached the legal profession. I also got a chance to come back here as a captain and teach on faculty. And really, this notion of developing those who are also coming behind you. And, whether that was developing cadets when I was on faculty or later leading various legal offices and developing those younger JAGS and paralegals, that really was my niche. And, I end up, and a passion for helping to promote those who really are the future of our Air Force, and now the Space Force. And so it was through those opportunities, I think, that sealed the deal that when the role of permanent professor for law came open, I threw my name in the hat. And was so fortunate when I got the call from then Brigadier General Armacost, letting me know that I had gotten that job, and came out here to lead that department. And then to really start to give back to this Academy.   Dr. Doug Lindsay  19:18 That idea of I think, is very important, but a subtle one, that idea of, "We're not just leading our teams to be their best," and all that but also pouring into them the opportunity to kind of develop in that teaching skill to be able to kind of teach the teachers right to be able to kind of help do that. And how have you been able to do that kind of as you moved up, right, because sometimes as you know, move up in the leadership ranks, you lose that connection with kind of the front line and being able to really (be in) the classroom and being in there where the teaching really happens.    Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  19:51 Yeah, I think part of it is how you set that vision, that strategy for moving forward. I went through a great leadership program out at at Harvard. In fact, this particular class was taught by retired Brigadier General Dana Born, who asked us to think about your leadership mantra, you know, what is it about what you do, regardless of if they made you the Dean of the Faculty, or they put you in any job, either in the military or outside the military and, as I wrestled with that, I came up with mine. And it's, "blasting crews to future universes." This notion, or this idea that I'm not going to be alongside, whether it's my younger faculty or these cadets after they graduate, in that future universe, but what is it that we have to do to support them, to challenge them to inspire them, such that as they get to that future destination, that they're ready, and that they're equipped? I believe my role - our role - as senior leaders at the Air Force Academy is to not necessarily predict the future with any certainty. I think I might know who our next adversary is going to be in conflict. But the United States has been wrong before. I certainly don't know what strides the technology is going to take between here and there. I do know, though, that it's going to be the mental agility in the capabilities and skill sets that we are providing both to our cadets, our first graduating class, but also something we talked about our second graduating class, which is those those faculty that are going to go back out into the Air Force and Space Force. It is that challenge of, how do we help them be ready for whatever's coming their way? How do we future-proof them? And that's what I see my role as the Dean of Faculty.   Dr. Doug Lindsay  22:00 So, can you talk a little bit more about that idea? Right, so that first graduating class, I think that makes sense, right? That's sending the future officers out in the Air and Space Forces, but that second class as well, right, that those advocates, those champions of kind of not just learning, everything that we're trying to do? What does that look like in terms of you've got, you know, 750 faculty, we have 4,000 cadets, both of those components are very important. How do you really lean into that one about thinking about how we're sending our folks out, back to the service?   Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  22:35 Well, one of the ways that we do that is we've got a pretty clear mission statement. Now, at the Dean of Faculty, we support obviously, the Air Force Academy's larger mission, which is to develop leaders of character within the Dean of the Faculty that we believe our portion of that is to educate and inspire warfighter scholars. So this confluence of not just a warfighter ethos, but also the disciplinary and more importantly, the interdisciplinary understanding and expertise to be able to apply that to future conflict. And so when we think about graduating both of those classes, we have become very deliberate within the Dean of Faculty and really across the entire institution. And we are laser focused on that future fight. So, how do we do that? And this is where I think the Academy has changed remarkably, and I love talking to classes who come back for the reunions. What's fundamentally changed, I think, since our time at the Air Force Academy and now is that not only is that curriculum, laser focused on the future fight, this is experiential learning opportunities that we're providing that ability to take what you're learning in the classroom, and then go in and solving real world research problems that are helping the warfighter. The Air Force Academy, Doug, you may know, is the number one funded undergraduate research institution in the country, we do over $40 million dollars worth of research every single year. And that goes across all disciplines. And not only is that helping our cadets learn how to apply or to think through different, different challenges that the warfighters are facing. But it also helps our faculty that are alongside them who are working through those same very same research challenges. And so that's where we get this idea of graduating to classes, and how we helped to shape to focus that future fight both in and outside of the classroom.   Dr. Doug Lindsay  24:45 So as you think back, it must be kind of neat in your position now to think back to Cadet Letendre back in the day, to be able to think about the experience you had and how and how impactful that was for you. And now with the resources and the opportunity, the IFC and other things that are out there available to really help prepare cadets because it's not just about learning, but it's about learning how to learn, right, the whole process and being able to partner with other organizations, right, that's got to be pretty cool to see that transformation over time. Right?   Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  25:20 (It) is and I'll just give you a little example. You've probably heard the Falcon SAT program. Well, I actually worked on something that predated Falcon SAT. The first time that cadets were briefing me about the history of Falcon SAT, they didn't even include the work that my class did with with Falcon Gold. They've since updated the slide. But we were working with any number of majors from electrical engineering to astronautical engineering and mechanical engineering. But we had literally dusted off a closet that I think the mechanical engineering department loaned out to the Astro department, right? There's no such thing as a clean-room. We're working on the development of a very simple satellite that we thought we might launch on a high altitude balloon. Flash forward to today. Not only do we have investment from other DoD entities like AFRL, and Space Force, but we have profound investment from our graduate community that is making Falcon SAT the premier undergraduate institution that is not only designing, developing, building, launching, and then flying satellites, I only half jokingly say that the United States Air Force Academy has more satellites in orbit than most small countries, because it's true. And those satellites, these cadets, and those opportunities that they have to take what they're learning in the classroom to apply it. And then they're actually once in orbit, working some DoD missions as well. And it's been a remarkable operation to watch. And sometimes I just shake my head and imagine, boy, if only Jack Fisher and I could get back here, in this Astro lab, how much fun we would have.    Dr. Doug Lindsay  27:15 So you mentioned the graduate community, their involvement as well. Right? So we have other corporate entities and all that doing that as well. Can you talk a little bit about the value of that kind of giving back not just through supporting the academy, but that involvement, that active involvement in the learning process? And what that's like?   Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  27:34 Giving back is critical. I like to think of it as those those sparks that if you think about what venture capitalists do, right, they, provide a spark and whether that's through seed money to try something new and different, whether that's through expertise and the use of time and knowledge as a resource. That's where I've seen grads giving back to the Air Force Academy, in really a variety (of) spectacular ways, you know, from our Institute of Future Conflict to this Fall, where we're going to open up the new Madeira Cyber Innovation Center, which is going to revolutionize how we not only think Teach, but also research with respect to the cyber domain to the Martinson Honors Program, which is just a phenomenal opportunity for for our cadets who are at the the cutting edge of thinking about interdisciplinary work through an academic lens. We're working now on the potential to have that kind of investment in the Academic Success Center, to make sure that all of our cadets are able to take on our challenging coursework any number of ways that as I walk through the halls, as I walk through our research labs, as I talk to our faculty, or as I see cadets taking part in clubs and activities. NCLS, the Academy couldn't do what it does today without that support that we get, not only from graduates, but from foundations, as well as corporations around the world.   Dr. Doug Lindsay  29:19 So I appreciate that ability (to) have the opportunity to stay connected, right? So, it's not just kind of up on the Hill, it's being able to, you know, lots of opportunities and ways to serve and get back. And as you talk through those different opportunities and talk through about the cyber center, the IFC, the Martinson, all of that. It sounds like as we think about kind of the great power competition and what's going on that we're setting our cadets up for success in being able to be involved and in really help to influence that moving forward. Right?   Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  29:51 Absolutely. And we, want our grads to be better than we ever were. And I can say unabashedly that they, our second lieutenants who are graduating from this institution. are better able on day one to take on the challenges that our nation has thrown at them. And we need an institution that continues to not only rise to that challenge, but continues to change. That gets better over time. And that remains at this point laser focused on great power competition. And that's what I'm seeing, not just out of the faculty and academic staff in DF, but across the institution, our AOCs, our AMT's, our coaches, every one of us knows what our mission is, and, and the challenges that our second lieutenants are going to be facing. On day one, I couldn't be more proud of what this Academy is doing.   Dr. Doug Lindsay  30:45 And I think you hit on an important part there because as I think about my experience a few years before yours with True Blue 92, I have to put that in there, that ability to really see I think, people's place in the overall mission because I think previously there, it was really easy to kind of stay stovepipe, stay in your lane. Think about, okay, this is I'm just going to kind of be here to teach. But it seems like there's been a broadening of my purpose, right, as a person comes into the Academy, the permanent party, faculty, staff anywhere, to really say, I've got a place here, I know what my place is and I know how I contribute to the larger mission. Is that fair to say?   Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  31:23 Oh, absolutely. I think that's all wrapped up in our mission to develop leaders of character. And this notion and idea that I first have to live honorably, that's taking care of who I am. That's that honor code, that, that we all espouse to that in that integrity that we bring with us day in and day out. But then that next phrase, or that that leader or characters is that we need to lift others, you know, we lift all of those around us, because we know that if we don't get the best out of every member of our team, we're never going to get to the final stage, which is that performance piece, that ability to accomplish the mission. And, and so I think that leader, a character framework, which is helping us to really center, not just cadets, but permanent party, around one goal. And so you see that, and everyone really does understand how they're contributing to that overarching mission. And they're all in, right?   Dr. Doug Lindsay  32:27 And, what I like about that kind of orienting function of developing leaders of character, because it puts a responsibility on me to to go, "If I'm going to develop leaders of character, then I need to think about how I'm showing up as a leader of character and how I do that. So I can kind of model and orient as well. Right. So I like that. That kind of responsibility puts on me as a faculty or staff member to go, I need to make sure I'm showing up the way I need to so that I can help them show up the way they need to as well. Right. Absolutely.   Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  32:57 And that is probably the part that that makes me the most proud as I wander the hallways or show up at a sporting event or, or watch our cadets engage in military training exercises. I'm not only seeing them live that day in and day out. But I see those permanent party who are setting that role model and example. Just across the board.    Dr. Doug Lindsay  33:24 Yeah, that's gotta be, yeah, very satisfying.   Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  33:27 I have the best job in the Air Force, Space Force.   Dr. Doug Lindsay  33:31 So kind of wrapping up, can you maybe share it? Through the journey that you've had maybe some lessons, you've kind of learned about leadership along the way, obviously, you've been very successful at every level you've done. And that doesn't happen by accident. It doesn't happen without work. So what were some of those lessons that you learned along the way, whether it was early on in acquisitions, it was in your log, or now as the dean, that you'd like to pass on?   Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  33:57 One of the lessons that I've learned is that little opportunities can become big opportunities. And you don't necessarily know what that big opportunity is going to be. And you don't necessarily recognize that the little opportunity that you have before you is one of those that's going to somehow blossom in the future. And so when I talk with cadets, I talk about, "Take advantage of the little opportunities, knock them out of the park." I'll share a little opportunity. I was legal counsel on on a case that had a potential to go to the United States Supreme Court. And I was brought in along I was a major. I was brought in with all of the Judge Advocate General's from all of the services. So these are two and three stars, who were sitting down with the General Counsel of the Department of Defense at the time, Mr. J. Johnson, who later became Secretary Johnson and head of the Department of Homeland Security And so they're having this conversation about whether or not this case should go to the Supreme Court. And and at the conclusion, Mr. Johnson passes around a memo and says, hey, does this need any editing? You know, is this what we want to send to the to DOJ, to the Department of Justice to the attorney general? And, and everyone around the table, except for me, nodded their head up and down. It looks great, sir. Looks great. And I looked at him like, this memo could be improved. And I started to edit it. And on the way out, I you know, I handed it off to Mr. Johnson's exec, and said, Hey, I think this could use a little improvement here and there, here's some thoughts. It wasn't about a month or so later, that I then got a call from my Judge Advocate General Lieutenant General Rives who said, Mr. Johnson wants that major. That major had the audacity to edit his memo to come and help serve as the legal counsel, as well, as one of the prime edit authors of the report regarding the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, I would have never expected that editing a little paper, or a memo would have led them to this enormous opportunity to work directly for general ham army four star as well as Mr. Johnson. And so I think those how you think about the little opportunities that then become the big opportunities is one leadership lesson that that I would pass along.   Dr. Doug Lindsay  36:30 And we could spend probably another couple hours unpacking that one, you had to have the knowledge to understand what was there. So there's a competence piece, but there's also a courage piece to kind of lean out a little bit when you're maybe outranked around the room. And everybody else is kind of saying, Yeah, this is the way to go. But you know that there's something else that's there, right?    Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  36:49 Yeah, and I think that leads maybe to a second leadership lesson is, you've got to find your voice. And oftentimes, when I talk to cadets, they're like, "Oh, well, easy for you to say, ma'am. You know, you've got a star on, of course, you've got a voice." But I think that unless you practice having that voice early in your career, you practice what it means to be candid, you practice what it means to speak up for the right thing. It doesn't actually get easier, just because you've got rank, it gets easier through practice. And so that's one of those lessons that we talk with cadets about all the time, how do they find their voice today, on the small things, so that when they need to have a voice on the big things, they've had some practice before.   Dr. Doug Lindsay  37:39 I love that idea of of practice, and kind of embracing the moment, right? We think a lot of times people make that mistake with leadership and think, "Well, I'm not in a leadership position. So I can't really lead.", and we know that's just not true. You can. So, that idea of learning your voice, learning to lead, just really taking advantage of the opportunities that are in front of you, so that you can then maybe down the road have the opportunity to get (better). So, I appreciate those thoughts in there, as we think about kind of people want to be connected. So, if the listeners want to kind of connect more, find out more about the Academy and what are some things that they can do to kind of connect more with the Academy and find out more about what's going on?    Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  38:18 Oh, absolutely. There's any variety of ways. Not only does our usafa.edu website contain information about all of our amazing programs and opportunities, from athletics at gofalcons.com, to what's up in the cadet wing, my amazing classmate and commandant, Brigadier General Gavin Marks, who is leading the cadet wing, but also any number of things that are going on on the academic side as well. Every department's got a website. They talk about their current curriculum, their faculty, the research that they're doing. You are also welcome to follow me on my LinkedIn site, or my Instagram page. The Supt. has an amazing Instagram page as well. Lot's of different ways through both social media as well as the internet to understand what we're doing. But I think one of the best ways is, come on back. Come back to your Academy. Come to a reunion, talk to a grad, talk to a cadet. Anytime I'm having a bad day, I pull a cadet aside and just chat for a few minutes. And believe me, it's gonna make your day.   Dr. Doug Lindsay  39:27 That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time, your your lessons, your leadership, your example and thank you for your time today on longer leadership.   Brig. Gen. Linell Letendre  39:35 Awesome. Thank you so much, Doug.     KEYWORDS cadets, academy, air force academy, faculty, leadership, opportunities, class, learning, dean, work, people, talk, graduated, challenges, air force, mission, leaders, number, space shuttle, future         The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation      

USAFA Class of 2010 valedictorian, Maj. Austin McKinney, discusses how the trust he earned and integrity he learned as a cadet led him to the U.S. Department of State where he helps build relationships between U.S. and global leaders.----more---- SUMMARY Maj. Austin McKinney '10 shares his journey from the Air Force Academy to becoming a Foreign Service Officer with the State Department. He emphasizes the importance of public service, teamwork, and never accepting the first no. McKinney highlights the value of the Academy's wide core curriculum and the opportunities it provides for personal and professional growth. He also discusses the significance of integrity and reputation in leadership and the need to adapt to the changing perspectives and interests of the younger generation. McKinney encourages others to consider the reserves as a way to stay connected to the military and emphasizes the importance of convincing young people of the value of joining the military and the Academy. The conversation explores the importance of storytelling in leadership and the value of being ready to say yes. It emphasizes the need to listen actively and understand the core similarities that unite people across different cultures. The conversation also highlights the challenge of transitioning from a tactical leader to a strategic leader and the importance of building relationships and networks. The key takeaways include the significance of delegation, the need for personal board of advisors, and the importance of being part of a supportive community.   OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "Part of leadership is process. But part of leadership is relationships." "Leadership by walking around is talking to people and developing those relationships, not sitting in your office and just working on the next memo, or the next email." "Never never accept the first no." "Always be ready to say yes." "We're (USAFA grads) part of a special community and always be contributing two is what I would encourage us all to think about it."   SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK  |  LINKEDIN  |  

A conversation between brothers in arms who have known each other since the early 1980s - one an athlete, the other his coach at the time.----more---- SUMMARY Neither has ventured far from the Air Force or the Academy. Lt. Gen. Richard Clark '86, the Academy's 21st superintendent, opens up about his leadership journey to Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Mike Gould '76, the man who first coached him all those years ago. Gen. Clark's leadership story is exceptional and Gen. Gould does a masterful job of helping him tell it.   OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "The one thing that doesn't change is our mission. And our mission is to develop lieutenants, better leaders of character that are ready to go out and win our wars and that are ready to go out support defend the Constitution. That is it." "Whenever there's Americans on the ground, we're going to do whatever it takes to help them you will do whatever it takes." "Seeing those young guys go out there and do that, and do what they needed to do to help other Americans to help their fellow servicemen that made me prouder than anything." "I am very happy and comfortable to leave this torch with them to hand the torch off to them. And I'm just proud to have served with them." "I am leaving with a lot of gratitude in my heart, just from our cadets from our permanent party, from the alumni that helped us do this and the other supporters."   SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK  |  LINKEDIN  |  TWITTER  |  EMAIL   CHAPTERS 00:00:  Introduction and Mission of the Air Force Academy 01:09:  Lieutenant General Rich Clark's Background and Career 08:27:  Making the Best of Unexpected Assignments 10:18:  Leadership in Challenging Situations 00:09:  Introduction 07:28:  Enhancing the Academy's Facilities and Programs 14:57:  Developing Leaders of Character 31:11:  The Importance of Alumni and Supporters 37:51:  Transitioning to the Role of Executive Director of the College Football Playoff 45:08:  Conclusion   TAKEAWAYS  - Leadership is developed through challenging experiences like overcoming adversity, mentoring others, and leading in high-pressure situations like combat.  - Support from family, mentors, and sponsor families can help one persevere through difficult times and find purpose.  - Having an open mind and making the most of unexpected opportunities can lead to unexpected benefits and career success.  - Giving back to one's alma mater through things like financial support, mentorship, and service helps continue its mission and benefits future generations.  - Expressing gratitude to those who support your mission helps foster positive relationships and a sense of shared purpose.     LT. GEN. CLARK'S BIO Lt. Gen. Richard M. Clark '86 is the Superintendent, U.S. Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs, Colorado. He directs a four-year regimen of military training, academics, athletic and character development programs leading to a Bachelor of Science degree and a commission as a second lieutenant in the United States Air Force or United States Space Force. Lt. Gen. Clark graduated from the U.S. Air Force Academy in 1986. His commands include the 34th Bomb Squadron, Ellsworth Air Force Base, South Dakota; 12th Flying Training Wing, Randolph AFB, Texas; Eighth Air Force, Barksdale AFB, Louisiana, and Joint Functional Component Commander for Global Strike, Offutt AFB, Nebraska. He has also served as a White House Fellow in Washington, D.C.; the Commandant of Cadets, U.S. Air Force Academy, Colorado; Senior Defense Official/Defense Attaché, Cairo, Egypt, and as the Commander, Third Air Force, Ramstein Air Base, Germany. Prior to his current assignment, Lt. Gen. Clark served as the Deputy Chief of Staff for Strategic Deterrence and Nuclear Integration, Headquarters U.S. Air Force, the Pentagon, Arlington, Virginia. - Copy and image credit:  af.mil       ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!            FULL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Our guest is Lt. Gen. Richard Clark '86  |  Our host is Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Mike Gould '76   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  00:12 The one thing that doesn't change is our mission. And our mission is to develop lieutenants, better leaders of character, that are ready to go out and win our wars and that are ready to go out and support and defend the Constitution. That's it.   Announcer  00:27 Welcome to the Long Blue Leadership podcast. These are powerful conversations with United States Air Force Academy graduates who have lived their lives with distinction. All leaders of character who candidly share their stories, including their best and worst moments, the challenges they've overcome the people and events that have shaped who they are, and who willingly lend their wisdom to advance your leadership journey. Your host for this special presentation of Long Blue Leadership is Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Mike Gould, USAFA class of '76 and currently serving as a member of the Association and Foundation board of directors. And now, Gen. Mike Gould.   Lt. Gen Mike Gould  01:09 My guest today is Lt. Gen. Rich Clark, the 21st superintendent of the Air Force Academy, Class of '86 at USAFA, and if I'm not mistaken, you're about 46 days away from retiring. After a 38-year career, that when you think about it, has spanned so much in our country, starting with the Cold War through conflicts in Southwest Asia, in the Middle East, and the culture wars that we all experience today. I think his experience in active duty is highlighted most by seven commands that he's held; a bomb squadron, a training wing, to numbered Air Force's, the joint functional component command for Global Strike, served as the commandant of cadets here at the Academy. And now like I said, as the 21st superintendent. In addition to that, Gen. Clark served as the senior defense official, and the defense attaché in Cairo during some interesting times, and also served as a White House fellow. And if that's not enough, he's flown over 4,200 hours in the B1, both the EC and KC-135, the T1, the T38, the T6 and the T21. And most notably, 400 of those hours are in combat. So Rich, as you look back on the past nearly four decades of service, I'm sure you have a lot to think about as it's all coming to an end. And really, how it all started. I'd like you to please share with us a little bit about your life as a young child. And you know, some of the influential people who you met in your formative years, and then kind of how that led you here to the Air Force Academy.   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  02:58 Wow, well, first, can I call you Coach, General Gould?   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  03:02 You (can) call me Coach…   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  03:03 I'll call you Coach because you were my coach when I was here, and you saw me walk in the doors here. So, I'll talk a little bit about that. But I just want to thank you for letting me be here today. This is a real honor. So, thank you.   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  But I grew up in the Bay Area, Oakland, Berkeley, California, and my parents were divorced. So, it was my mother, my brother and I. And then when my mom got remarried, we moved to the East Coast to Richmond, Virginia, and that's where I went to high school, and not a military family. My dad was drafted back in the Vietnam era. He served a short tour, so I don't really remember those days. So, I don't consider myself really from a military family and really hadn't considered joining the military. I played football, I played a lot of sports. Growing up, football was my primary — and track actually, but football the primarily, and I had signed to go to William & Mary in Virginia, and I was going with my best friend from high school and actually in junior high. And Coach Ken Hatfield came to my house. And the Air Force had been recruiting me. So did Army and Navy. And he actually came to my house though and visited my parents. And he had dinner at our house, and my mom thought, “He is such a nice man. And he was like, “Look, just come out and see the Air Force Academy.” Now what he didn't know was that I wanted to, I was very interested in flying more commercial. I always thought I wanted to be a commercial pilot. And he convinced me to come out. My mom was like, “Just go; it's free.” You know, I was like, OK, and so I still had a couple of college visits left. So, I came to the Air Force Academy. I'll be honest, I got here and after seeing the place and seeing the opportunities to fly — just to have a great education and to play Division I college football, I was hooked. And I, my dad — my stepdad who I consider my dad — made me call the coach at William & Mary tell him I was changing my mind. And I signed and came to Air Force. And when I got off the bus and got on those footprints , and they started yelling at me, I was like, “Hey, wait, I'm a football player. You're not supposed to yell at me.” That's what I thought. And that was not true. And the rest is history. And, you know, it was an important decision in my life, certainly. But, you know, I appreciate Coach Hatfield being persistent and coming to get me and, you know, talk to my parents, formative people, obviously. But it was a great decision. Great decision.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  05:48 Did you also visit West Point and or Annapolis?   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  05:52 I did not because I didn't want to go to a — I wasn't interested, really in a service academy. What I will say, though, I did fill out an application to Air Force before Coach Hatfield came. And I did go and do an interview with my congressional member. Because my guidance counselor convinced me to do that in case I didn't get another good offer from somewhere else. And I actually got a congressional appointment. But then the Academy contacted me, and I told them I was going to turn it down. And that's when Coach Hatfield came to my house. But I, I went through the motions, I think, but I didn't really have an intention to come. I wanted to go to William & Mary, and I wasn't even going to visit Army and Navy because, you know, there wasn't something I was interested in.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  06:46 I'll bet you've looked back and asked yourself the question, what would you be doing now had you gone to William and Mary, or one of these other schools?   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  06:54 Hard for me to picture my life without being in the Air Force and the Air Force Academy, right?   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  07:01 Now, you let on a little bit about falling in on the footprints. But as you look back at arriving at the Academy, and you're in now, you signed up and you're going to be a Falcon, what kind of memories do you have about basic training and leading into your first fall semester?   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  07:21 Yeah. So, here's the here's one memory I definitely have — and I talk to the cadets about this sometimes — I mentioned the phone-booth to them. And they're like, “What? “What's a phone booth?” Well, you know, I explained to them, there were these big boxes that had a telephone and you had a card that you could call home. And in basic training, about halfway through, you got to call home. And I call my mom. And I said, “Mom, this place is not for me. I'm ready to come home.” She's like, “Oh, that's great. Because the William & Mary coach called last week to see how you're doing. You could probably still get your scholarship.” And I was like, “Oh.” I was expecting her to say, “Well, you better not come home.” But she said, “You know, that's OK.” And truth is, I looked out the door, you know, they had the glass doors, and all my classmates are lined up out the door waiting for their turn to come in. And honestly, I thought, “Man, I'm not ready to leave these guys yet.” And so, she said, “You come on home, it's OK.” And I said, “Well, you know what, mom, I think I'm just gonna' finish basic training. And then I'll see. I want to stick that out with these guys.” You know, I made some great friends. It's not what I expected, but I liked the people. So, I stayed. And then after basic training, she asked me, “Are you still going to come home?” And I said, “Well, you know, I think I'll stick it out one semester, I'd really like to play football because I've gotten in with the team now. And I got some friends on the team. So maybe I could play one season. I think I've got a good chance to make the varsity.” And I did that. And then it was, “You know, Mom, maybe I'll stay for my rest of my freshman year.” It was like one step at a time until eventually I was like, “You know, I'm in.” But it was not a done deal for a while for me, you know, where I just said, “You know what, this is it. I'm in the right place.” I think after that first year, though, I realized that I was, you know — it took some time though. And football had a lot to do with it. The friends you make, the success we had as a team. That was just great. And I love my squadron. I was in 7th Squadron. Great, great friends there. So, after a year though, I feel like I was in but there was that moment in that phone booth and basic training where I was like, “Man, I don't know.” But I did it and I'm glad I did.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  09:52 Well, everything you just went through right there was referencing the people. That's what kept you there. But then you get into academics and you get your military training. How did you navigate some of those things? And you know, I know you had fun with your buddies and football is always a hoot. But about the other challenges that the Academy threw at you?   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  10:15 Yeah. So, I actually, I liked academics, I did pretty well, I was on Dean's List most semesters, like seven of my eight semesters, I made the Dean's List. So not that I didn't have some challenges. I mean, there's those certain courses that you're just like, “Oh, my goodness.” But overall, academics wasn't the big challenge. I think the challenge for me was not having some of the freedoms that you wanted early on because you're sort of getting acclimatized to it, you know, you're getting used to not being able to do certain things, the military lifestyle, you have to get used to that a little bit. But once I got that — and going back to the people, everybody's kind of struggling with that. And when you're all struggling together, it just makes it a lot more bearable and doable. And I think after that first year, I was in, I was like, “You know, I'm in the right place. And I'm gonna' stay here.” I did have a moment though. When I was a sophomore, I tore my knee up playing football, the last game, San Diego State. Just ripped my ACL. My MCL — meniscus cartilage — had [to be] reconstructed. And I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to play football again. And that made me kind of think a little bit about was I going to stay. And I had to come to terms with some things, you know, “Why am I here? What's my real purpose?” And as much as football meant to me, I was here for something bigger than that. And I realized that unfortunately, at that point when I was injured, I think that was also the point where I really came to terms with why I was here, that it was something bigger than myself. And I wanted to be a part of it. And so I stayed. I was still determined to play and I did get to play, you know, the next season. But my purpose was a bit different, you know, and that injury really helped me kind of figure things out and sort through my greater purpose.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  12:18 Gave you that confidence of overcoming adversity.   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  12:21 Absolutely. Like sports does. Right. That's it.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  12:24 Now, back in my day, we didn't really have a sponsorship program — sponsor families in town. But I think by the time you were a cadet, that program existed to have a sponsor family.   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  12:41 They were awesome. The Frables, Neil and Elizabeth. I just had lunch with Neil about four months ago. We still we stay in touch and they're just awesome. And they were so good. They sponsored four of us. And they actually gave each of us a key to their house. And a key to their third car. Oh, my goodness, that was a lifesaver. And they cooked a lot. And we ate a lot. And they just they really opened their homes up to us. So, I credit them. I mean, they were my second family, and still just love them for what they did for us. They were a great, great sponsor family.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  13:24 When you were a cadet, did you participate in any formal leadership programs? Did you hold some positions within the cadet wing?   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  13:35 O don't think they thought that highly of me. I wasn't that kind of cadet. I was the D.O. for my squadron. And that was because one of my buddies was a squadron commander. He's like, “Hey, man, will you help me?” And I was like, “Yeah, I'll do this.” But that was the most leadership experience I got and, you know, informal way. But I was glad to do that. It was my squadron. Although, when I told my friends to clean their rooms up and stuff, they'd always give me grief. You know, all these seniors. We were all seniors together. And they're like, “Who are you to tell me this?” Peer leadership is the hardest thing in the world. But yeah, I didn't rise to the level of like group or wing leadership or anything like that. So, the cadets were already surprised to hear that I'm like not, I wasn't that good of a cadet. I mean, I was like your average kind of cadet that did pretty well.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  14:28 Well, you're being modest here. I watched you lead on that football team. You guys had some success and a really tight group.   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  14:35 We did. I loved our team. We had a lot of leaders on our football team, though. And people — I always characterize the leadership on our football team — people knew when they needed to lead. You know, there was just times where someone needed to step up and be a leader. And it might not be that you were the leader all the time. But when it was needed, somebody always stepped up. And that was I think the hallmark of our team. And it was just a great group of people, humble leaders, all about team success. And I learned as much leadership from football as I did anywhere else here at the Academy. And credit to Coach DeBerry, Coach Hatfield, you know, all of our coaches, and my teammates, for just helping me develop as a man and, and what kind of a leader and person I wanted to be. So that was as much of a leadership laboratory as anything for me.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  15:33 So, it sounds like when it came time to toss your hat and put on the gold bars, you were prepared to go out and be a lieutenant in the Air Force.   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  15:43 I think I was. And my first job was right back and coaching football here. So that was a nice transition from the Academy. I taught unarmed combat, PE, and I coached the JV football team and you, you were at the prep school then I think, Coach, and so… But that was a phenomenal job. And there were like eight of us that stayed back and did that. That was just great. And you know, you had to employ some leadership there because you're trying to lead the cadets. And whether they're on football or in the PE class. So, I learned a lot doing that, but I really enjoyed it. I love being back here. And honestly, it gave me a whole different appreciation for the Academy. Because when you're a cadet, you are looking about five feet in front of you and you don't stop to look at the mountains and you don't stop to look at all that everybody's doing to make this place happen and the passion that people really have for our cadets. That was when I first kind of said, “You know what, this place really is special.” But you don't get that as a cadet necessarily. Some cadets, so they're special anyway, but cadets like me, I didn't know, and I was just ready to graduate. But that one year gave me a whole different appreciation. And I'm grateful for it.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  17:00 Right. And then you headed off to pilot training and like most lieutenants, you know, you're gonna' mix in with a new group of people, a new group of friends. Talk to us about your experience as a student pilot, and then on to start your career flying big airplanes.   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  17:18 Yes. So, me and one of my good friends, Mike Chandler, we decided we were going to go to pilot training together. He was a teammate in football. And we were actually roommates when we traveled. And we decided we're going together. So, we both went to Laughlin. And we thought we'll go to Laughlin so there's no distractions, there's good weather, we're going to kill pilot training. And when we got there, we realized there's no distractions at all. And there was nothing else to do there. But we had a great time because of the people in our class. And we're the only two Academy grads in the class. But we just we bonded well as a class and pilot training was pretty good. I do remember though, I almost washed out, like in the first month, because I had a couple bad rides in a row. And you know how you get a couple, three bad rides, and you're out? And especially in those days, we lost half of our class, they washed out 50% of our class. And I had these bad rides. And I had to go to what they call an 89. You know, and what that was if you if you fail three rides in a row, right? If you couldn't do your no-flap landings, and you couldn't get them right in the T-37, then you went to an 88. You fail the 88, then you go to the 89. 89 was the elimination, right? And so, I had to go to an 89. And I had to fly with the squadron commander. And the night before, I call my mom again. I always called my mom. And I was like, Mom, tomorrow might be my last flight because I flew today, I failed the ride, and I don't think a whole lot is gonna' change between tonight and tomorrow. And she was like, “Well enjoy it. Because it might be the last time you get to fly an airplane, so you need to at least have fun. It's been your dream and my heart goes out to you. But enjoy the flight. Don't make your last flight something that was a bad memory for you.” And I was like, “Well, if I fail, it's gonna' be a bad memory.” She said, “But at least have fun. You can have fun.” But it was great advice because I went up there, Coach, and I was just relaxed. I even stopped studying when I called her. I didn't study that night. I went to bed, got up in the morning, didn't get up early and study. I went in there, I did my ground evals. I was usually pretty good in the ground evals and I just went up and I flew the sortie. I remember, he told me to do a cloverleaf, you know, the maneuver the cloverleaf, which was my favorite. I did the cloverleaf and he goes, “OK, we can head on back to the pattern now get your pattern work done.” And I said, “Can I do one more clover?” And he's like, “I don't recommend it, the one you did was fine.” And I said, “I know I just like the cloverleaf. Sir, can I just do one more?” He was like, “OK.” And I did another cloverleaf thinking, “You know, this might be my last time I did the cloverleaf.” I flew back to the pattern, I'm talking to the IP and stuff. I did my landings, you know, really uneventful. Got out of the plane, we're walking back, and he goes, “I don't even know why you're in this ride. That was a great ride.” And I was like, “You mean, I passed?” And he was like, “Yeah, great job today, Lt. Clark, you passed.” And what I realized, it was about just relaxing and flying the plane. And it was the best lesson I ever got in an airplane, when you can relax and just let your training kick in. And just don't worry and let your instincts take over. You just fly better. And my mom sort of taught me that. She's like, “Just relax and have a good time.” So, I sort of credited her with keeping me at the Academy. She got me through pilot training. I mean, she was my mom, too. So, I give her that credit. But yeah, that was a good pilot training memory. And, you know, everything's been great since then.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  21:12 So, you head off, and you're going to the EC135 first, right? So, talk to me a little bit about your career progression there as a captain and major and things you look back on from that period.   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  21:27 Well, so, here's one big lesson that I got out. When I got the EC135, I wanted to fly C-130. Really I wanted to fly a gunship. And I thought, “I don't even know what that is I didn't put it on my dream sheet. How did I end up getting this?” I was bummed out. And then one of the IP(s) said, “You know, they handpick people to go into the EC135.” Oh, really? Well, because the EC135 was the airborne command post — the nuclear mission at Offutt and you always had a general officer on board. And you could only fly with instructor pilots and a co-pilot. You couldn't have a straight aircraft commander in that plane. And the co-pilot had an immense amount of responsibility in that mission, and you got a whole lot of flying time. And when you got done with that assignment in two years, you got your choice of your next assignment. And a lot of guys went to fighters. They had to compete for that. But then for me, it was the B-1 and I saw that that was available. And I learned that when I first walked in the door because several people got to FP111s and B-1s. And I was like, “Man, I could do this.” I got 2,000 hours in the T-38 because they had the ACE program, the companion trainer program in the EC. And between those two aircraft, I got 2,000 hours, which was plenty for me to go into the B-1. And then I flew the B-1 basically the rest of my career. And so, it was really one of the lessons I learned. Sometimes you get put somewhere that maybe it didn't want or maybe didn't expect, but you make the best of it. And sometimes there's these, sort of, hidden benefits and successes that you didn't even know about. But if you go there and just bloom where you're planted, good things happen. And I learned that early. Fortunately, in the EC135. I flew the B-1 for 17 years. I flew at McConnell which ended up moving B-1s out of there. Dyess Air Force Base, I flew at Ellsworth as a squadron commander. I did do a stint in the Pentagon and legislative liaison in there and I was also a White House fellow, which was an amazing opportunity for me. But those years and the B-1 and doing the Pentagon and the White House fellow were really amazing years. I met Amy in there and we got married. When I was stationed at Dyess as a captain, well, actually I met her as a captain — we dated, and I pinned on just a few months before we got married. But my flying career was just awesome. And my first command was just absolutely a pinnacle point. It was squadron commander and the 34th Bomb Squadron. And I got into that squadron. Sept. 5, 2001, is when I showed up for that and I had just left the White House fellowship, which was just a fantastic opportunity. But I was riding high Sept. 5, and then Sept. 11, happens and everything changed. The squadron deployed and I wasn't checked out yet in the B-1. I had to go through a re-qual program. And so, I can remember when they left. The squadron was heading out and they were, “…or maybe we could just take you as an unqualified pilot,” blah, blah, blah. There was no way that that was going to happen. And so, I can remember that day, when they were leaving, they left about a month after Sept. 11, in October. And I just went and helped pack up bags. I just did whatever I could to help that squadron out. I wasn't the squadron commander at the time. But I remember thinking, “Man, I can't believe the squadron that I was going to go in is going to go without me.” But they did. And I helped. And I tried to be as much of a contributor as I could. And when they came back, I was all qualified. And then a couple of months after that, I took over the squadron. And then they tapped us to go again. And so, I got to deploy the squadron in combat over Iraq. We deployed to Oman and we flew missions at the beginning of OIF. And that was just an unbelievable experience, growth experience, leadership experience, but really, just something I'll never forget, you know, it was hard. It was tough. We're there for about six months. But leading in combat I think is something we all prepare for and want to be ready for. But it's also an honor, you know, to be able to have that kind of responsibility. And I think back on it, and my timing couldn't have been better for me to be able to do that. It was just a highlight of my career.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  26:31 Can we entice you to tell a quick war story about a Distinguished Flying Cross that you are awarded?   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  26:37 Oh, well, I could talk about that. Can I talk about a different story there? I have a better one, I do. This was one of my proudest moments I think I had as the squadron commander. I had to line up all the crews, you know, to put experience within experience and make sure that they were balanced out with the people that I knew, and who was going to perform the best. And I had 24 crews. They actually sent me extra crews from a different squadron to make sure that we had a full complement. And the last crew that I had were two of the most inexperienced people in our squadron. Two captains and two lieutenants. And one of them was a brand-new FAPE. Has just come from T-37s into the B-1. And I had to have 24 crews and they were the last four people. And I didn't really have another way to balance the experience and inexperience. So, I did it. And the flight commanders were like, “Don't do it. We can't send these guys out like that.” And I said, “We have to; they need to go. And so, on the second night, they went out they had 24 JDAM, 2,000 pound GPS bombs. And they started out. They orbited in the area, they did well. First they delivered their 12 bombs on-target, the direct targets from the ATO, and they hit those targets. And then they were orbiting, waiting for what we call it, x-cast, somebody to call in and say, “I need some bombs.” And our mantra in the squadron was whenever there's Americans on the ground, we're going to do whatever it takes to help them. You will do whatever it takes. And so, they're orbiting, and they're about at bingo fuel in there, meaning the fuel that they needed to go back, and they get a radio call from an AWAC. There's troops in contact and they need some air power. So, they give this crew, the aircraft commander, this young FAPE goes, “Well, we're close to bingo, but we're not there yet. So, give us the coordinates and give us the radio frequency,” and they fly. And they get this JTAC — joint tactical air control — on the ground. And he's like, “We're getting shelled from a ridgeline. There's Iraqi armored vehicles, they're hitting us hard. We need some bombs. We got 150 soldiers down here, can you give us some bombs.” He's like, “Got it, give us the coordinates.” So, they start getting a nine-line there. They're loading the coordinates, and the “Wizzo” is just putting the bombs, you know, he starts putting them on target. Boom, boom, one at a time. And they get the coordinates, bomb on target. But then they hit bingo. And so the aircraft commander tells the JTAC, “Hey, we're at bingo fuel, we need to get going or we're not going to be able to get back home. But we'll get somebody else out here.” And the JTAC says, “If you leave us now, we're going to get pummeled. Can you stay a little longer?” He says, “We'll stay as long as you want.” And so, they keep putting bombs on target. And they keep putting them down until they went Winchester and the JTAC says, “Hey, the shelling stopped. You guys are cleared out.” And when they turn their nose to go home, they didn't have enough fuel to get back. And so, they get on with AWACS and they're talking to AWACS trying to figure something out. They're looking at divert. Field diverting into a field in Iraq is not a good idea. But finally, a KC-135 flies into the country, into Iraq, unarmed, unafraid, gives them gas and then those guys can come home. And when they got back, they were three hours past their estimated arrival time. And I met him at the airplane because I'm going, “What happened?” And when the aircraft commander comes down the ladder, he's got salt stains on his back. They were working hard. I said, “What happened? He goes, “Sir, we overflew our bingo.” I said, “Well, certainly there's more to it than that.” And so, we go into the intel debrief and they told that story. And all of those, that whole crew, was awarded Distinguished Flying Crosses for what they did. And so that of all the things that happened, to see those young guys go out there and do that, and do what they needed to do to help other Americans, to help their fellow servicemen, that made me prouder than anything,   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  30:44 I guess it would. And you took a chance, in a way, by putting this crew together.   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  30:49 I did. Yeah. As far as I was concerned, I didn't have a choice, you know, but I had to trust them to do their job. And they were trained. I mean, they had received the training that was required for them to go to combat, so we have to trust them to do it. And they did it.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  31:05 Well, that's a really cool story. And if my math is right, you are about 15-16 years into your career at that time. Let me shift gears a little bit. How much thought did you give to staying in touch with or staying engaged with the Air Force Academy while you were out? You know, developing your career path.   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  31:33 I gave a lot of thought to it. I used to come back for football games. I came back for my reunions for sure. And I don't think financially at that point, I hadn't gotten involved. But a couple years later, when our class, our 20th reunion was starting, that's when I really started realizing financially I could and should start to give back to the Academy. So that was when I think from a financial point, I really connected and realized that. But just from a present standpoint and coming back, I came back at every opportunity. I came back for games; I came back for some mentorship opportunities that people asked me to come talk to cadets and things like that. But I never thought I would get to come back here to work. You know, it never crossed my mind until someone asked me to be the commandant years later. And that was like beyond imagination for me, especially knowing what kind of cadet I was. I was like, “OK, you really want me to be the commandant? I don't think so.” But I got that opportunity down the road. I mean, that was after a lot. I went on to be a wing commander, you mentioned I was the wing commander. At 12th Flying Training Wing, I got to fly all the trainers and that was just awesome. And then I deployed to Iraq for a year, which was an intense year, hard year, I would say probably the hardest year I've had, you know, in my career. And then I got promoted to one star. And they sent me to Barksdale Air Force Base as the vice commander of 8th Air Force. And when I came back from Iraq, I knew I'd gotten promoted. And that job was kind of roundabout. They said, “Hey, we're gonna' send you to Barksdale to be the vice at 8th. But that job is actually going to be downgraded to a colonel and you're about to pin on one star. So we're not sure what's going to happen with you next.” I was like, “Oh, man,” trying to remember the lessons of the past though. I said, “OK. This is where I'm going so let's bloom where I'm planted,” right? So, we all move there. Things were great. And then I remember the MATCOM commander called me in one day and he goes, “You know…, they get the phone call from the secretary. I'm gonna', one, I'm a newly pinned on one star. And he goes, “Hey, you know that job you're in is a colonel job?” And I was like, “Yes, sir, I know. But I love it.” You know, I was being positive. He says, “But we're gonna' have to move you out of there.” “Yes sir. Understood.” And he goes, “What would you think about going to the Air Force Academy and be the commandant?” You could have knocked me over with a feather. And that's when you and I first connected, when I got to come be your commandant when you were the supt. And that was just a dream to be able to come back here and that's when I really connected back, you know, when I got a chance to see it, even from a different level. I talked about it as a coach you know, and seeing how special it is and seeing how passionate people are about our school. But being the commandant gave me a whole different view and being able to engage with the cadets and understand what they were doing and trying to push that development for them. Just amazing and I loved it, and Amy loved it, to live in the Otis House, having the cadets over, trying to help them with their, you know, their development. And that's a big job, right? We all know that because you take it very personally, because you want them to be everything that they can be in there. So amazingly talented. You just want to take that talent and give them every opportunity you can to thrive. So, we did that. And after that, even Amy, she might as well be a grad. I mean, she just fell in love with this place after those two years. Our kids, Milo and Zoey, they were 10 and 8 coming in. Our family just was immersed in USAFA.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  35:40 So, I was going to ask you about the role that Amy and the kids played in your development as a leader, but I got to see it firsthand. And you just went through that. When you had to leave the Academy, if you can remember, I'm sure you do remember this, I wanted to keep you here for a third year. Because you were that perfect role model in so many ways for the cadets. Not only your leadership, you know, in the job, but your family and the way these kids could then look up and say, “I want to do that someday. I think I can be like that guy.” And we wanted to keep you another year and then you came out on the two-star list and you moved on to what was undoubtedly a really, really tough assignment as the DAT and senior guy in Cairo. Tell us about that little bit.   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  36:30 Yeah, well, if you remember at first they told me I was going to the Pentagon to be the 8th, which was like the big job. If you're a two-star, you go there, the 8th as the programmer. And Amy loves D.C. And so, they told us we were going there. And then I get a phone call from then-Chief of Staff Gen. Schwartz, actually, he called and said, “Hey, I need you to talk to the GAO management office, the GoMo, who do all the assignments for the general.” And I was like, “Oh, yes, sir. Is there a problem?” And I think you might have known about that — you probably knew about this already. Because it was bad news, I think he wanted to tell me personally or something. And so, I called GoMo. And they go, “Yeah, your assignment's changed. You're not going to the Pentagon, you're going to Egypt.” And I go, “Is there a base in Egypt?” They're like, “No, you're gonna' be working at the embassy as the DET.” And I was like, “Ah, OK. All right. That's good.” And so, then the first thing that came to my mind was telling me, I was like, “Oh man, she's gonna' flip out.” Well, I called her. And I said, “Honey, we're not going to D.C.” And here's the thing. Our movers were already in route, like, they were coming to pack us out. And I said, “We're not going to D.C., we're going to Egypt.” I was bracing for impact. And she goes, “Oh my gosh, are you kidding me? That's amazing.” I was like, she couldn't care less about what job I had, she couldn't care less that I was giving up like the best job to target. She was just looking for that adventure of Egypt. And that actually took a lot of heat off me. Because if she's happy, I'm happy. And so, we went to Egypt. And it actually turned out to be great. But we got truncated on the training. Like, you're supposed to get language school, you're supposed to go through this whole defense attaché course. And I didn't have time because it was a late breaking change. And they said, “Don't worry, you don't need all that training because Egypt's on skids.” That was the exact words of the guy that that told me I was getting a job. And he meant Egypt is in a good place. You know, they just elected a new president, democratically elected, and everything's good. Well, when we got there, I got to the airport and we're all sitting in the lounge at the airport, and I picked up a newspaper, and it was in English. And it said that day, the president fired all the military, all the top military leaders. I was like, I guess we're not on skids anymore. And it just went downhill from there. I was there for a month, and they attacked the embassy. And then a year later, the coup happened. Amy and the kids and all the families within the embassy had to go home. It was an order departure. They all had to leave. I remember telling Amy because I was in the meeting with the ambassador when all this happened. And I said “Hey, you might want to pack a bag because I think you're about to go.” She's like, “Pack a bag?” I said, “You can only pack a carry on.” “How long are we going to be gone?” “I don't know.” And they left and they went to D.C. And we had no idea. They ended up being gone for nine months. The kids started school and everything. Well, there was two thirds of the embassy stayed, but it was actually, from a professional standpoint, awesome. To be involved, often to be our representative on the military side, to work with the Egyptian military to try to help navigate through this coup d'état. And they're a country that we were very interested in keeping as a partner. I got a lot of good experience and just cool, like, opportunities to do things. It was a little scary at times, but I actually loved it. And then Amy and the kids came back. We look at that as one of our best assignments as a family. It was just — the Egyptian people are amazing. The travel that we got to do was incredible. And I just loved the assignment, and it goes back, you know, I mentioned to you, sometimes you get an assignment and you're like, “Gosh, what?” And it turns out to be the best thing ever. And that was one of them.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  40:50 And I thought for sure, somewhere in there, you were gonna' say you called your mom.   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  40:57 Then I was married, so then I just had to stop calling my mom after that. Well, I still call her but not for advice. I gotta' call Amy, so, you know?   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  41:06 Well, you had a couple more really challenging assignments. But let's talk about your time as superintendent. Not too many people think that you'll grow up someday and have that type of responsibility. And then when you get here, you realize that it's probably one of the most heavily scrutinized positions you can have in the Air Force.   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  41:26 That's an understatement.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  41:29 We can both agree on this.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  41:34 But other than the general leadership and the experiences you have throughout your career, this place is different. USAFA is different than any other command, and in many ways more challenging, because you just hadn't had that experience. How do you reflect back on your time as superintendent and the fact that you you've worked through, I think you had two presidents, two commander in chiefs, you had a couple different secretaries, and they all have guidance that comes to you. But your job then is to make that guidance into your own policy. How have you dealt with all that?   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  42:14 You know, honestly, all of us military members are — our job is to make the commander in chief's policy our policy, and to execute that policy. That's our oath. And that's what we do. And so, you know, for me, I feel like we've all done that. I mean, we've all at some point in our careers had to say, you know, “This is the law of the land.” I mean, I'm gonna' follow my oath to the Constitution, support and defend. And that's a part of it. So, in that aspect, you saw it was no different. But like you said, it's such a, I don't know, everybody has an idea. Everybody thinks they can run the Air Force. Everybody thinks that it should flow along their ideological lines, or whatever. And, frankly, it's about our country's policies that we have to abide by. But the one thing that doesn't change is our mission. And our mission is to develop lieutenants that are leaders of character that are ready to go out and win our wars, and that are ready to go out, support, defend the Constitution. That's it. And the policy things that people get so hung up on, sometimes they're really on the periphery, and they're not as entrenched. And what we do as people might think are — our core mission has never changed. There are some nuances, there's some things that might change a little bit, society changes. Young people change, you know, people that are 18 to 24. It's a pretty volatile group, in a way, and they change with society, too. So, we have to tweak and adjust based on our superiors, you know, people in the Pentagon and OSD and our president. We have to change based on society, and who we have coming into the Air Force Academy. And frankly, parents get a vote in this and the things that happen. And alumni always have a voice in this as well. They make their voice well known. But in the end, what it's my job to do is to make sure that our team is inoculated enough from all that, that we can continue to do our job and make sure that these warfighters are ready to go out and do what those lieutenants and those captains did for me as a squadron commander. That we're putting people out that are ready to go do that. And I always have in mind, like that story that I told you, Coach, it's always in the back of my mind. I hope that I'm developing people that are ready to go out and do what Those guys did that day. If our lieutenants are ready to fight like that, then we've succeeded. And that's my goal. I've never been a political person. But I get dragged into it all the time. And my job is to make sure that when I do get dragged into it, that we're still able to execute our mission, and that I don't drag the entirety of the Academy into it. And you know how it is. That's our job as leaders: to provide that top cover, and that shield, so that our people can do their job and produce those lieutenants that are going to go win wars.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  45:34 Well, that's a great attitude, and you've done it well. Tell me about your relationship with the Association of Graduates and Foundation? How have they contributed to your successes here at the Academy? And is there anything that the two organizations could do better?   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  45:52 Well, I will say, let me start off with, enormous support from the Foundation and the AOG. And it's hard for everyone to really know what kinds of things you guys do for us. But all you need to do is drive around the campus, right? And look at the North Commons area, look at our new hotel, look at our visitor center, that's coming up, look at the Cyber Innovation Center that's coming up, look at our football stadium that's getting built. All those things are either fully private or public-private, that the Foundation has to not only raise the money, but facilitate those things happening. And I would say that, nowadays, we're not going to have very much construction that's going to happen here or any growth that the Foundation isn't involved in. You're going to have to be involved in pretty much everything that we do, if we want to keep evolving as an Academy. And since I've been here, the Foundation has done that. And the Foundation and the AOG are only as strong as our alumni. And I guess I've always known that intuitively. But since I've been here, it is entrenched in me and I will always be a supporter of our Academy from a financial standpoint, from my time standpoint, but it's critical, not just for our Academy, but really for the product, those 1,000 lieutenants that we put out, they benefit enormously from the help that we get. And those are just the big things. Forget about all of the research opportunities, the travel opportunities, the opportunities to bring in guest speakers, NCLS, you know, the National Character and Leadership Symposium is NCLS. There's so many other things that people don't even know that only happened because someone was willing to put their resources behind our Academy. And so, you know, the Foundation makes that happen for us to AOG brings them in, but together, that support is just enormous. And, you know, I get a lot of compliments about people who they see — the visitors that we have coming through the Carlton House, you know, the supt. house — thousands of people that come through there: cadets, donors, dignitaries, all kinds of people. All that happens because of gift funds from the Foundation. We're able to represent our Academy in a way that people can't even understand. And that also, you know — there's a synergy from that and an exponential effect from us being able to do those kinds of things that most universities do. But the government doesn't always support those things because it's not in a funding line. But the Foundation helps us to make those things happen.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  48:45 Well, you've summed it up pretty well. Our goal is for the Association to be relevant in the lives of cadets through their time here at the Academy and onto their careers. So that eventually they follow into that continuum where they go to the Foundation and say, “How can I help?” And we're seeing that happen now. And it's nice to hear you recognize that it's been a factor in your time. We're close to running out of time here. Richard, let me ask you about your next big challenge, executive director of the College Football Playoff. This is exciting. What are your thoughts there?   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  49:19 So, I am enormously grateful and blessed to even have this job. I still kind of don't believe it. You know, because it's such a dream job. I'm going from one dream job to another, you know, but it's funny. What I'll say is, it came out of the blue. A search firm contacted me and I had some, I had known them because I was involved in another search for the Mountain West Conference to find our commissioner. And the people that ran the search knew me just because I was on that panel and everything. And the guy calls me one day. He goes “Hey, Rich, I heard you might be retiring soon. I think you mentioned to us would you be willing to put your name in the hat for the executive director of the CFP.” I was like, “Is that a trick question?” And so, he said, “Now you're the longshot candidate.” They wanted a nontraditional candidate on the, you know — they have 15 or 20 people that they're looking at, but they wanted a nontraditional. I was like, “Yeah, I'll do it.” I said, “Can I ask though, do I really have a shot at this?” He goes, “Yeah, everybody has a shot.” I'm like, “OK, so I got a shot. Let's do this.” And I did a phone interview, then I did a Zoom interview, then it was narrowed down to three and an in-person interview. And I got the job, and I couldn't believe it. But what's really interesting, the things that they liked about me, like, they asked me some questions like, “Do you have any media…?” They go, “Do you have any media experience?” I was like, “No.” “Do you have any experience in managing college athletic teams?” “No.” You know, “Do you have any experience and revenue generation?” “No.” I, you know, and I thought, “I'm just done.” But then they started asking me leadership questions and things that any of us in the military, we would all knock them out of the park. They are things that we've all lived and done things that I learned here, you know, at the Air Force Academy. They weren't hard questions; they were things that are second nature to us. The other thing that they liked was that I played football for four years. And being a student-athlete myself, they thought that that was a big benefit. So really, it goes right back to being here at the Academy and getting that job. And now I look at the challenges that it faces, then you just talked about all the scrutiny we get here as a superintendent. Yeah, I think I'm walking right into another job where I'm going to get scrutinized. It's going to the 12-team playoff, you know, this year. Last year, you know, number five team, everybody was all mad and lost their minds. And I think the committee did it right, though. Next year, it'll just be team 13 that's going to be mad. So, I'm ready, though. I'm excited about it. Amy's excited about it. We're going to move to Dallas, which is where the headquarters is. But I still am, you know, I'm sprinting to the finish in this job. So, I don't have a lot of time to think about it. But it's nice to know that I have another great job that I'm going to be able to flow into. I feel incredibly blessed by it. And just for the opportunity to continue to contribute to student success. And to be a part of that.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  52:32 That's a really good thought. And let me just ask you to close this out, Rich. Any parting thoughts to your team here at the Academy, to the cadets and to your teammates as you move on to your second career?   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  52:50 Well, first of all, and you know this, as much as I do, you know, as the supt, you know, you're at the head of the table, right? And you're trying to provide the top cover. But it's really so that all of the amazing teammates — we have the dean of faculty, the commandant, the athletic director, the prep school, airbase wing, just across the board. You know, all of those people in the flying training group too, even though they're not AETC, there's much of this character development effort that we have. But they're the ones that get the job done. And what makes the Air Force Academy so special is that everyone is so passionate about our cadets, and trying to help them to be ready to go out and do the things that we need them to do. That's what makes us special. It's also what makes it kind of hard, though. But I will take hard when people are passionate any day, you know? They just will do this mission and they will do it, whatever it takes to make it right. And to make sure that we're giving those cadets everything they deserve. I couldn't thank them enough from all of our senior leaders right on down to the, you know, the people in the trenches working in Mitchell Hall. You know, I just love this place because of the people that make it work and that make it go to our cadets. I'll be very honest, there's people that go, “What's wrong with this generation? They don't, you know, they're not patriotic; they're not athletic.” These people don't know what on Earth they're talking about. Come spend an hour, 30 minutes, with our cadets and you'll change your mind. These are the most incredible people. They are patriotic. They want to go serve. They might be different than we were. They might be different than you know, even the classes before us. But there is no lack of patriotism and them wanting to serve and them wanting to do great things and to reach their destiny. And they are every bit as much leaders of character as anybody, this generation. They're better. They're smarter, they're more athletic, they're more in touch with their world around them. I am very happy and comfortable to leave this torch with them, to hand the torch off to them. And I'm just proud to have served with them. And then just to everyone out there, all the supporters of the Academy, and we do have a lot, I just thank them, you know, for letting us do our job at helping us do our job and supporting this Academy. So, I am leaving with a lot of gratitude in my heart, just from our cadets from our permanent party, from the alumni that helped us do this and the other supporters. It just makes me feel good about our country, you know, people still care, people still want to serve and to go do great things. And this place exemplifies that, like no other.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  55:48 Rich, that gratitude goes both ways. We're awfully proud of you, Amy, Milo, Zoë, and we just thank you for your years of service and the leadership you've exhibited here at the Academy. You left a mark, trust me, and we wish you all the well in the future as you go on about, and please stay in touch. Thank you.   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  56:11 Thank you to the AOG and Foundation. And I'll say this, you know, I thank Amy because she's the one that was willing to go an extra four years because I could have retired as a three star when we started and she said, I'm in that passion from our time as commandant, she was like, “I'm in, let's do this.” And another four years wasn't easy for her. I'll be honest with you. She wants to live in her own house. She wants to… she started a new job. But she, she owned it. And she loves this Academy too. And I have to thank her and Milo and Zoë. They've just been my, that's my team. You know, I mean, in the end, you know, I thank God for them. I thank God for every opportunity. But I am just full of gratitude. So, thanks, Coach.   Lt. Gen. Mike Gould  56:59 Well done. Thank you. Lt. Gen.Rich Clark, 21st superintendent of the United States Air Force Academy.   Lt. Gen. Richard Clark  57:03 Thanks very much. Yeah, thank you.   Announcer:  57:08 Thank you for listening to long blue leadership. If you enjoyed this episode, we encourage you to subscribe, share it with your family and friends and post it to your social channels. Long Blue Leadership is a production of the long blue line Podcast Network and presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation. The views and opinions of the guests and hosts do not necessarily reflect those of the United States Air Force, Air Force Academy, Academy Association and Foundation, its staff or management. The podcast drops every two weeks on Tuesday mornings. Subscribe to Long Blue Leadership on Apple podcasts, Spotify, tune in plus Alexa, and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on LinkedIn, Facebook, YouTube, and more for show announcements and updates and visit long blue leadership.org for past episodes and more long blue line podcast network programming     KEYWORDS Air Force Academy, leadership, character, military career, pilot training, squadron command, Operation Iraqi Freedom, Lt. Gen. Richard Clark '86, superintendent, United States Air Force Academy, executive director, college football playoff, Association of Graduates, Foundation, leadership, character development, support, gratitude     The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation      

As a child, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell '98, dreamt that one day she would defy gravity, taking her rightful place in the sky among the stars.----more---- SUMMARY Rochelle Kimbrell shared her journey of growing up as a young black girl in a small town in Colorado who dreamed of becoming a fighter pilot. Despite being told she couldn't or shouldn't pursue this goal, she developed a strong work ethic and passion for flying from a young age. She meticulously planned her path, gaining leadership experience in Civil Air Patrol and excelling academically to earn an appointment to the Air Force Academy. Kimbrell overcame challenges like failing a class by changing majors and learning from mistakes. As one of the first female fighter pilots, Kimbrell faced obstacles like lack of proper gear and medical issues. She discussed the difficulties of balancing pregnancy/motherhood with her flying career due to changing policies. After 13 years of active duty service, Kimbrell transitioned to the reserves and pursued public speaking and entrepreneurship. This allowed her to find fulfillment in empowering and mentoring others, especially young minorities.   OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "My parents always feel this to just just go out and chase our dreams and follow our dreams, and, you know, to forge our own paths and to be strong." "I think we plan our vacations really well. But I don't think we plan our lives really well." "You've got to have a plan for your life. Like yes, you can change course 100%. But you've got to have first vision, so that you can start working towards it and figure out what it's going to take." "You learn that there are many paths that can lead there. And so it was it was okay. And that everybody's gonna have a setback." "I want to impact people's lives. I want to empower people to be their best selves." - Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell '89   SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK  |  LINKEDIN  |  TWITTER  |  EMAIL   CHAPTERS 00:00:  Introduction and Background 06:34:  Overcoming Doubts and Breaking Barriers 25:43:  Challenges Faced by Female Fighter Pilots 32:50:  The Importance of Mentorship 49:33:  Dare to Dream and Pursue Your Goals   SOME TAKEAWAYS - Believe in yourself and pursue your dreams, even when others doubt you. - Having a plan and being willing to pivot can lead to unexpected opportunities. - Overcoming challenges and setbacks is part of the journey to success. - Representation matters - being a role model can inspire others to pursue their own dreams. Female fighter pilots faced challenges in terms of camaraderie, gear, and facilities. - Balancing motherhood and a career as a fighter pilot was challenging. - Mentorship is important, and mentors don't have to look like you. - It's important to dare to dream and pursue your goals, despite obstacles and failures. - Planning your life and having a clear vision of where you want to go is crucial.   COL. KIMBRELL'S BIO Retired U.S. Air Force Lt. Col. Rochelle Kimbrell is a charismatic trailblazer whose road to becoming the US military's first Black female fighter pilot started when she was a little girl growing up in Parker, Colorado. She had a dream that was beyond the imagination of most. In a time before women were allowed to fly fighter aircraft and women being in combat was literally against the law, those boundaries were no deterrent for Rochelle. Powered by a dream, Rochelle crafted a plan to achieve this dream and the journey to success through failure took commitment. The story of her journey is legendary and can ignite a flame in any individual or team and challenge them to dare to dream again. Rochelle not only broke several glass ceilings in the F-16 community, her experiences transformed into operations on the ground and then on to the highly technological remotely piloted aircraft. Rochelle has over 2100 hours piloting military aircraft and over 975 combat and combat support hours. Rochelle retired from the Air Force in 2020 after almost 22 years of service.  She is a full time public servant pouring her time and energy back into her community. She volunteers as an orientation pilot in the Civil Air Patrol, shares her story and teaches leadership and success principles to individuals and organizations across the country through her Dare To Dream (Dare-2-Dream.com) speaking platform and is also a full time mother to 2 amazing boys and wife to an awesome husband. - Copy credit:  AthenasVoiceUSA.com   CONNECT WITH ROCHELLE LINKEDIN  |  WEBSITE   ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!        TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Our guest, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell '89 | Our host is Naviere Walkewicz '99   Naviere Walkewicz Col. Kimbrell, welcome to Long Blue Leadership and thank you for being here today.   Rochelle Kimbrell Thank you so much, Naviere.  That's an awesome intro and I'm really excited to here today talking with my alma mater.     Naviere Walkewicz  00:49 That's right. Well, that's my pleasure. And you know, I think it's always especially wonderful when I get to speak to someone that I was at the Academy with at the same time. So, we're kind of going back in the day. And we can say that because, you know, we're amongst friends here. But this is a great opportunity to share with our listeners a little bit about you and your journey. So, we're really excited.   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  01:08 Awesome, excited to be here.   Naviere Walkewicz  01:09 Well, let's go back in time a little bit. Let's go back to you as a little girl. Can you share a little bit with our listeners about where you grew up, what your family life was like? Take us on the journey.   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  01:21 Take you on the journey. All right. So absolutely. So, my family actually migrated here from Guyana in South America. So, my dad moved out here for college, went to Howard, and then he was getting his Ph.D. in Indiana — Purdue — when I was born. So, I'm the youngest of four. And we moved around a little bit, and then we ended up settling in Colorado. So, I actually grew up in Parker, which is only about an hour down the road, 45 minutes down the road from the Academy. And, you know, we grew up in a time where — Parker now is a thriving metropolis, but it was a really small horse town. Growing up where we were one of two Black families that I was aware of growing up, and I was the only Black person in my class from kindergarten all the way through graduation. So, it was an interesting time; it was an interesting town. But I'm an animal fanatic. I grew up showing horses and showing dogs and you know, when I tell people about where I grew up, and I talk about, you know, Parker had one stoplight and Main Street had a saloon with still saloon doors on it. We used to ride our horses down to the candy store, the Mountain Man Fruit and Candy store, and there was a hitching post outside. And people were like, “You're from Montana?” I'm like, “No, no, no, no, just up the road about 45 minutes.” So, a very different place back then. And my parents just being immigrants, you know, they knew that America was kind of the place where you come to make your dreams come true, the land of opportunity, they believed that you do it through education, and if you were educated, then you could go out and achieve whatever you wanted to. And so they always feel this — to just go out and chase our dreams and follow our dreams, and, you know, to forge our own paths and to be strong and to go for it, you know. They knew that they didn't have all the answers, but that they were out there, and that there was nothing that was stopping us other than ourselves. So, they always fostered that in us growing up, which I really appreciate. So, when I came out of left field with the crazy notion of being a fighter pilot, they had no idea. Military life? What that was like? What that was about? But they said, you know, go after it. You know, figure it out and go do.   Naviere Walkewicz  03:47 That's amazing. I mean, it sounds like, just right from the get-go, you had such wonderful role models of not being afraid, right, and taking the chance at the dream and pursuing things that are greater and bigger and whatever we want to achieve. Maybe you can expand on that. Because from horses to fighter jets, you know, it's like, “Wait, that's a big leap.” Let's talk about how did you know that you wanted to become a fighter pilot.   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  04:11 So, from about kindergarten, I wanted to be an astronaut. And I was always just fascinated with space and the stars and the sky and weightlessness and speed and defying gravity. Like, it was all just really interesting to me. And I just wanted to be up there among the stars from day one. And so in kindergarten, I wrote away to NASA and asked, you know, what do I have to do - on that line paper - you know, and said, “How do I become an astronaut?” and they sent back a ginormous package of huge pamphlets and books and things that I never got all the way through. But, you know, kind of laying that process out of what that would look like and all the things that you can do and learn. And as I continue to learn about it, watch a little bit of it, learn you know what that was like, somewhere along the way I found out that not all astronauts get to go to space. I didn't want to do all that training and maybe not get picked, right? So, I think, you know, as I've dissected my life, I kind of go back and I think about, you know, being picked and maybe being, you know, that minority child not always being picked first. I think that was one of my stepping stones to saying, you know, if it really comes down to you've done all the training, and somebody still has to choose you, I wasn't confident that I would be chosen to go to space. So somewhere along the road I learned about fighter jets, you know. We had Academy kids that used to come down to our church, and they would sing over Christmas, and then they'd spend a couple of days with you, and then go back — our church had that program. So, over time I'd heard some of them talking about being fighter pilots, and I kind of probed him, you know, hid around the corner, and listened to what they're talking about — being, you know, fighter pilots. And I was like, “That sounds pretty cool, like fast and jets, and it's up there in the sky; you're still defying gravity. I want to do that.” And so that's where that kind of passion came from. And, you know, the animals were just, you know, animals are great companions. So, I think just growing up in the in those scenarios, they were comforting. It was challenging, it was fun. And I think it really is kind of along the same lines, you know, you kind of set your mind out and you're gonna go do something that's challenging, but it fills that need for you. And that's what flying became for me further into my life.   Naviere Walkewicz  06:35 That helps explain the move from horses to the stars, and then into the cockpit of a fighter jet. So when you said your parents and your family was really supportive of you going to the Academy, did you know the Academy was the route you're gonna take?   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  06:49 Absolutely. So, once I decided I wanted to be a fighter pilot. My dad got me a flight lesson when I was 14, a discovery flight. And that just really sealed the deal. I mean, just being in control of a little Cessna up there, 14 years old, you know, you take off and the world is your oyster. It's a whole different perspective. It's just a different view of life in general. And that's how I feel about flying to this day. I love it. It's the ultimate freedom. It's amazing. So, from there, I kind of reverse engineered my life. I said, “How do I become a fighter pilot?” Because my parents didn't have the answers. And so I started asking the questions. And I really looked at it as this is the goal: to get to the Air Force Academy, because they had the most pilot training slots. So, I looked around, I didn't learn a lot about ROTC, I didn't learn a lot about it. Because I learned that they didn't have a lot of slots at the time. I never heard the word Reserve, I never really heard the word Guard. So that was interesting going forward — that there were other paths, but I didn't know about them. So I knew the Academy had the most pilot training slots. And I said, “OK, how do I get there? How do I get to the Academy?” You know, so you start reading and seeing things and it's good grades, you've got to be well rounded, and you've got to have leadership, sports, you've got to have all of these things. I'm like, “I don't know what this well-rounded thing means. But OK, good grades. I can do the good grades, I do good grades and try to figure out all the rest of the stuff.” I ended up joining Civil Air Patrol when I was in, I think, eighth grade. And that really just opened up a huge — it was really like a foot in the door for me because it was military-esque. You know, they're an auxiliary of the Air Force. So, you're wearing the uniform, you're doing the marching and lots of leadership opportunities. So, I actually ended up commanding the drill team and taking us to nationals and doing encampments up here at the Air Force Academy. So, we run the leadership reaction course before I even came here, you know, and it was that leg up that I needed for not having, you know, family, second generation, all that, it was the leg up that I really needed to crack the door and go, “OK, this is something that yeah, I could do this.” So, I got to have those leadership experiences. And I played sports. You know, all sorts of different sports. I did soccer and volleyball and ran track and ended up doing swimming so that I could pass basic swimming, those types of things. So it was really a well thought out chartered course, because I knew I wanted to go to the Academy. And I think that's something that I've tried to pass on to my kids is like, “You've got to have a plan for your life.” Like, “Yes, you can change course 100%. But you've got to have first vision, so that you can start working towards it and figure out what it's going to take.” I don't think that we spend enough time doing that sometimes. I think we plan our vacations really well. But I don't think we plan our lives really well.   Naviere Walkewicz  09:42 I was just gonna say that sounds like a really good leadership nugget right there. I mean, honestly, when did you realize you — have you always been a planner or was that something as a kid that you've, you knew about yourself or just developed about yourself?   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  09:55 I would say that that was the first big plan that I created. And it was very intentional. The people that say, “Oh, I just, you know, showed up and I took a flight at the Academy and decided I wanted to go fly.” That's not how this worked for me. Like, I've been calling for this from day one. So yeah, absolutely.   Naviere Walkewicz  10:20 You had said something about in Civil Air Patrol, you were leading, you took your team to nationals. I would love to learn more about what that leadership journey was. And the reason I asked that is because sometimes our listeners think, you know, “What does leadership look like? And if I've not been involved in something, can I still get to a leadership position in it?” You know, and so it sounds like you took that on.   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  10:40 So, I think as a young person, it's a little bit scary, because it's the first time that you're leading your peers, and trying to get people to do things that they don't necessarily want to do, because part of our competition was running. We played volleyball, and we drilled, you know, and it was voluntary, obviously, it's not, you know, to get in there and to go to the drill team. But it was really creating that camaraderie among the people that made them want to show up and want to show up at their best. And it was just kind of my first crack at getting to do that. And I think we were super successful in being able to create that environment that people wanted to be around where they got to be themselves and come out, and everybody had a strength and everybody had weaknesses, that we had to cover everybody, you know, and then we get to build them up. And you see that growth. And maybe at the time, I wouldn't say that I took that all in and knew what was, you know — that this is what was happening. But as I go back and dissect, I feel like that's where we got some of our successes is because the environment that we created was so fun, so welcoming, but we all were on a mission and we wanted to win. So, we had that vibe underneath that was driving us, but people could show up as themselves. So, it was pretty awesome.   Naviere Walkewicz  11:56 I see that strength in you. Just the theme that it's kind of running through everything you're talking about is, you know, kind of finding a way and I think bringing others along with you — sounds like that's kind of where we're headed. So I really like that. Maybe let's talk about when you got into the Academy. What was that experience like? Did you get the letter? How did you find out? And what were your first reactions?   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  12:18 So, the only two places that I applied to were the Air Force Academy and the Naval Academy. My mom was like, “You should apply to MIT.” I don't know if they have a good pilot program, but they don't have the most pilot training slots.That was my plan and so I actually got accepted to the Naval Academy first, quite a while before I got accepted to the Air Force Academy. I ended up with a vice presidential nomination for the Academy for the Air Force Academy. And I waited. And I was really excited about the Naval Academy. I had been out to visit and it's a beautiful campus. And it would be super fun to go and learn how to crew and do things that I've never done. And I thought it'd be fun to do a summer on a boat. And I wanted to go away from home. So, it was really, yeah, it was really enticing to actually just say, “Yeah, I'm gonna go to the Naval Academy.” And then when I got that acceptance letter from the Air Force Academy, I was like, oh, OK, this is what it's always been about. And so I sat down and I made a list of where I wanted to go, and why I chose these two schools. And the Air Force Academy just came out with, this is what I was set out to do. These are the goals that I had, and this will fulfill all those goals. And that's probably what I should do, even though it's not away from home. And it's not, you know, and I was like, but that was the goal. So, I stepped foot in and it was awesome. I mean, it was everything that I thought it was gonna be, you know, a lot of people, not a lot, some people look back and wonder what they got themselves into when they show up here. And I knew exactly what I was getting myself into. I was excited about it. I had actually got to train with the PJs while I was in Civil Air Patrol. And that was way harder than basic training. So, when I showed up, I was like, “Oh, this is awesome.” People were like, “How do you know how to blouse your boots?” So, I'm like, “Because this was my plan.” I was like, “This was my plan all along.” And then you start asking people, “Why are you here?” Because you have all the different things right? There's other people that thought to be here and there's other people that showed up for they don't know why. And there's other people that were gonna just try it out. And so, you had the plethora, you had all of the… but I was one of those people. It's like this is where I have been fighting to get in from the time I was 14.   Naviere Walkewicz  14:49 Obviously it shows that hard work pays off. And you know, one of the other things that stood out to me, she's [Col. Kimbrell] wearing a red blazer because she is Red Class and I did want to acknowledge the fact that I noticed so, you're welcome.   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  15:00 Awesome. Thank you. Dominate.   Naviere Walkewicz  15:03 So, you know, I am doing my part, you know, as a Gold Class, you know, just paying homage. So, let's talk about time at the Academy, and you said it was everything you'd hoped it to be.   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  15:15 So it was, well, school was a little harder than I hoped it would be. The hope was that it would prepare me to go on to be a fighter pilot was the hope. And I think, you know, I just knew what I was getting myself into. So, there were no huge surprises, which I think was helpful as I walked through the journey. So, showing up doing basic — that was all well and good. The camaraderie that we built around that being, you know, Screaming Demons, and then, you know, going into the Killer Cobras. For my first two years, just a solid group of human beings. We had phenomenal upperclassmen, like, you know, just the greatest leadership team to teach us leadership and teach us exactly what I'm talking about. And that's probably where it solidified, was, you know, really working hard. You're working your tail off, but being part of something greater than yourself. And that was the first time I really learned about that piece of leadership, that it wasn't just about me going off to be a fighter pilot. But there's all this team building that has to happen in between. And that's kind of when that started to set in. And I think the Academy does that very well, in building teams and strong teams through challenge. So, I came in and, you know, did the things. It was a walk-on to the fencing team for a semester. And then I learned about falconry. And, you know, we only select four people from each class to be falconer just for their time here to take care of our mascots, to love them and just be amazing. And to go out and represent the school as well. And so, you know, my love of animals, it was perfect. And it was my kind of escape from when things did get crazy. I got to go down to the muse and play with the birds. And, you know, we brought our beloved Aurora here when she was just a little fledgling (with) fluffy feathers. So when I came back, 20 years later, she was still alive, and I got to see her and handle her. And it was awesome. So, I did that for my four years here, which afforded me lots of opportunities to go out and talk to high schools and do all kinds of different things. That's one thing I talked to people about, you know, going out and doing the hard things and getting in programs that are rigorous, make sure you have your outlet, make sure that you're taking care of yourself, whatever that looks like, you know, whether it's falconry or, whether it's you know, meditation or yoga, or whatever it is, make sure that you take that time to do that so that you can enjoy your experience, even though it's super challenging.   Naviere Walkewicz  17:51 One of the questions I think some of our listeners have is, you know, your time as a cadet. While a lot of things, you expect them to be challenging, to have an outlet and such, you know, maybe you can share an example where it was a challenge that you had to overcome something or you learned something about yourself having to go through an experience a challenge. Can you share maybe a setback or something that helped you grow as a leader?   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  18:13 Definitely, I think, you know, failing or almost failing the class like that — that had never happened; it never occurred to me that it could happen. Um, you know, we all come in here, as you know, top rated top academics, you know, we've not always done things well. But we have surpassed many in our journey to get here. And I was always really good at math. It was something that I prided myself on being good at. And then I hit that Engineering Math 343 and it crushed my world. And so, I started out as an Engineering Mechanics major. And when that happened, they were like, “Well, you can take that again, or you can change your major.” And I was like, “I'll just change my major.” And that was kind of the first time that I had backed down from my plan. But I realized that there are many paths that could lead there. And so it was OK. And that everybody's gonna have a setback. So that was kind of the first big pill. I mean, not the first, but that's one that I definitely remember to this day that I had to swallow for myself. “Oh, I'm not gonna graduate with this degree that I thought I was gonna graduate with.” But it afforded more opportunities and different doors to open to find out, you know, that I really enjoyed doubly. So, I took a bunch of classes and so I got to branch out a little bit more than I would have been just being on the straight and narrow and not learning to pivot. And so, I think that was my first lesson in learning to pivot, which would suit me later on in my career for sure.   Naviere Walkewicz  19:55 Now that's a great example. And I think that it's really, you know, good for people to hear that sometimes there are many ways we can get to an end goal. And just because the plan has to shift, that's absolutely OK. And that's life. Right? So, in the intro, we talked a bit about couldn't and shouldn't. So, let's kind of dive into that a little bit. Was that more after graduation? Would you say there were things even at the Academy that kind of followed that trajectory?   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  20:23 I think that was all the way from the time I was little, you know, when I was a little Black girl growing up in Parker, people thought I couldn't and shouldn't do a lot of things. And that really, I think, even from a really young age, that really became the fuel to part of who I became. Going against the grain was my norm, like it became my norm as I was growing up. And, you know, for our military history buffs, you would know that women weren't even allowed to fly fighters until '93. And I graduated high school in '94. So, starting at 14, it was not just a, “You shouldn't” it was, “It's against the law.” Like, I would tell people I'm going to be a fighter pilot. And [they'd] say, “Well, you can't.” And I would tell them, I was like, “Well, I'm young.” So that's either gonna change, or I'm gonna change it. Like, those were my words that came out to people starting very young. And fortunately, I didn't have to change it, it changed right at the cusp — right in the nick of time, it changed. But it also came with a lot of challenges. You know, I remember being in pilot training and flying out across country, somewhere in the middle of nowhere, Texas, and crawling out of the T-38. And the guy at the gas station at the, you know, the [place] where we fill up our airplanes saying, “They let you fly that?” And I was like, “They let you talk?” That's what I said. And because I was spicy when I was younger, you know, sometimes it wasn't, you know, the most appropriate way. But standing up for yourself and knowing that you deserved as much of an opportunity as the next person to give it your best.   Naviere Walkewicz  22:11 I mean, there are so many lessons that we could just take from that just in general. I love that you said if there's not a way, I will find it or something to that… and you know, to that degree. Talk about that a little bit. So, when you went to pilot training, that path was afforded to you. But I'm sure it wasn't just like, “I want to be,” so it's done. Right? You had to work really hard. So talk about what some of that looked like, if you don't mind.   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  22:36 Um, so pilot training, whew, that was a, you know, I was thinking in my mind I was prepared because I had my pilot's license, you know? I knew that I could take off and land. But that happens. And once you start, once you get over the simulator process, and the ground part process of pilot training, everybody catches up to you in about two weeks — everybody's taking off and landing, like that was nothing special. So that was eye opening. I was like, “Oh, OK, I thought I had a leg up.” You know, it was the pace of learning and growth of going through what pilot training takes you to and just the professional process of training is fascinating. Like, it's very fascinating. If you sat back and you watched what you can learn in a year, when focused solely on, you know, two airplanes, you know, one airplane for six months, one airplane for another six months, and just what you need to do. You learn a lot, and I had a lot to learn, and it was rigorous. And it really took a team effort as far as study groups, and just learning how to study and those people who had family members, and were legacy pilots and legacy fighter pilots were, you know, you need those people in your group to just kind of help you decipher what it is, or I needed those people in my group to help me decipher what it was that I was reading and studying. So it was awesome. I had a great group of guys and gals initially in my class. And then once I split off to [T-38s] from that point, for many years, I was the only woman in my squadron that was flying, or in my group.   Naviere Walkewicz  24:14 Well, can you talk about that a little bit, I think, you know, you said the only female. I was a “loggie,” so I was helping to load aircraft. And I did get, during ops Air Force, a ride in a F-16D model. So, I got to sit in the back seat. I'm like, “This is great.” But that was my extent beyond the soaring program at the Academy. So can you talk about what it's like being a female fighter pilot and some of the experiences that you had maybe that aren't glamorous that people don't know about, like maybe don't even know to ask or what that was like? I think it's, really unique for people to hear some of what had to be overcome so that things are now normal.   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  24:51 I mean, I think it was a lot of little things that we had to, or though I'll just say that I'll just talk from my perspective. I won't speak for all the female fighter pilots out there because we are all walked very different paths. So, I think for me, it was a lot of little things that you had to deal with on a day-to-day that didn't allow me to show up at my best necessarily every day because I was focusing on the wrong things based on kind of the surroundings and what I was walking into. You know, I kind of think about it as some — this is a recent analogy that I've kind of come up with —it's kind of like, if you were out in public and you walked into the men's restroom, right. And that's where you were supposed to be, but you didn't feel like you were supposed to be there. Right? And so that was very similar to the initial walking into, you know, the T-38 is a little bit different because we started out, and I think I want to say, we actually had a large class of women going into my 993 team down at Laughlin. I think there were six of us. But then everybody went off — my roommate went off to helicopters, and then everybody else went “heavies.” And I was the only one that went fighters so you kind of had camaraderie with those guys initially. And so going into 38s was not as big of a deal. I think it was more showing up at Luke, and going through our fighter training unit there FTU, at Luke, where that's the first time you meet some other people and then every squadron subsequent to that. And I know for now, I do know, for many of us female fighter pilots, the gear was an issue. So just not having sizes that fit, not having good relief systems on the airplanes that women could use. So instead of focusing on things like tactics, and you know, where I need to be in formation, what our target is, and where I am on my target, you know, sometimes you can think about, like, I really gotta go to the bathroom and there's nothing I'm gonna be able to do about it for the next two hours, which doesn't make a good teammate. When you're a four-ship, and one person is not in the game fully, right, that is something that you absolutely need to be in the game fully 100 percent, 100 percent of the mission, 100 percent of the time. And I think that some of those basic needs not being met didn't afford me to be fully present when I needed to be at times. You know, and then that kind of goes hand in hand with, you know, potential leak-causing medical issues further down the road of, you know, not hydrating when you're flying jets, which is key, like you have to be hydrated to pull nine Gs. And I know, I flew not hydrated many times because I was concerned about other things. So those are some of the things that I think on the leading edge of, “Yeah, let's get women in the cockpit and the fighters,” you know, for a lot of reasons. That's a great idea. But we needed to think about it as a community kind of. What does that require, you know, what, what differences, you know, physiologically, whatever it is, does that require? And have we addressed that before we invite people into this space and say, “Yeah, go be a fighter pilot.” You know, we all managed and we figured it out. And, you know, that's the resiliency, that's the tenaciousness, that's the, “We're gonna do this, you know, come hell or high water. That's what we're gonna do.” And I think that was the mentality like, “I'm allowed to be here, I'm going to do my best to make the grade. I've done the things I'm, you know, I've made the grade and training, there's no reason that I shouldn't be able to go do this,” right? And then there's the reality of, here's a few things we need to tweak. And we're many years away from fixing those problems. Some of that has been arranged, and or some of that has been solved now, and some of it is still being worked on, you know. And I think we've come a long way in the realm of pregnancy and having babies and having kids in the fighter community. You know, it's kind of on the leading edge of that, too.   Naviere Walkewicz  29:16 You must be in my head. I was going to ask, you know, what it's like to be a fighter pilot and have children?   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  29:23 So, and that's, you know, that's challenging. It was very challenging. And I think, being on the leading edge, the commander's didn't necessarily know what to do with you. I was at a non-flying assignment when we chose — I say chose — but I use that word loosely, because I had asked, you know, if I was on a non-flying assignment, which meant I would have to go to a transition course in order to go back to the jet. And so, I got married while I was at the non-flying assignment. And I asked, “If I went to the transition course and then subsequently decided to have a child, what would that look like?” And my commander said, “Well, we don't have to give you another transition course.” So essentially what that means to everybody who, you know, just to make it perfectly clear, your flying career would be over if I chose to have a child. So that was the thought process at the time by some, not all, because it was very commander-dependent. It was very, you know, they had the power, so we chose to have my son before I went to the transition course. And the rules at the time were that you were allowed to PCS, they were allowed to PCS you three months after you had a baby. Well, I had an emergency C-section. And three months after I had a baby, I couldn't do a sit up, they were ready to PCS me back-to-back to go pull nine Gs. And I was trying to explain that to the guy at the assignments. And he's like, “But the book says…” and I'm like, “I understand what the book says. However, we've got to think outside the box here a little bit. And I'm gonna need a little bit of an extension here before I can go the course. So, I can do a sit up, maybe stand up, maybe just do some basic things aside from pulling nine Gs.” And so, I think it was six to seven months after having my son I ended up at my course. And I was in Italy with a 9-month-old, going back to the jet, which was crazy. I'm not sure that it was sane at all. I mean, I don't know, for those people who've had babies, and you know what the first two years of life is like with the amount of sleep that you get. And it doesn't matter how phenomenal your spouse is, if you're the mom, you're the mom, and you've still got duties that you have to perform, whether it's you know, child's hungry, there's only one person that can do something about that. So, it was interesting. And then, you know, the other part of that is support for your spouse, you know. We were one of the few people that had young kids showing up in Italy — he was the only guy and in the spouse's area, he had no support. With a 9-month-old in a foreign country, didn't speak the language. It was tough. It was challenging.   Naviere Walkewicz  32:20 That is. And so how did you I mean, aside from we just got through it, you know, what were some of the things that you might share with others? Look back. How were you able to so maybe others can think about what that looks like?   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  32:36 We really did just get through it, right? We did, we leaned on each other, we, you know, went through some struggles there and, you know, I mean, I think, what I would tell people, you know, if they're thinking about whatever it is that you're going to actually go through in your life, right, and you're choosing a partner, you have understand each other's, you know, lives, and you have to be strong in your partnership to try and do something like this, you know, like, you'll talk to a lot of mil-to-mil families and the things that they've had to go through, and we weren't mil to mil, but you know, there's different things that you have to go through. So really having a partner that understands, and that you can figure things out and you're committed to each other even when it gets hard. I think, you know, because you can't necessarily always count on going into a new place and it being a certain kind of way. Right? You hope that you would have this type of support and that type of support. But having never seen the dynamic, they might not know how to have that type of support for you. So, it was a lot of opening new doors that people just kind of looked at us and didn't have any. We can't help you. We appreciate you.   Naviere Walkewicz  34:02 I think just sharing that because I think a lot of times, people don't, you know, really think about, you know, what does that look like and sometimes it just looks like you just take a step forward and you open up a door and you kind of, you know, assess and you go forward. And I think that there's something to be said about just moving forward. And it sounds like that's what you did really well. And through communication and everything as well. Maybe you can share, were there any leaders along the way that kind of supported you or inspired you to kind of get through some of the difficult times whether they're in that as a new mom or just in your career in general? What did that kind of look like from an inspirational standpoint?   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  34:38 So, this was my struggle that I did not understand. And I really try to help young people and people up and coming and even people who are established in their careers, try to help them understand mentorship, because while we throw around the word “mentorship” a lot, we don't really talk about what does that really look like? And so along my career, I would hear “mentorship.” And I thought to myself, “I need to find another Black woman fighter pilot to help me figure out how to do this.” OK, well, when you are the first, there's nobody else out there to help you do that. And so I thought that I had to figure it out on my own and forge my own path, which made it harder for me. And part of that was self-imposed — 100 percent. But I didn't understand. So, as I got older in my career, and as I had, you know, gone through some trials and tribulations and I really sat down and I learned what mentorship was, I make sure that people understand three things about mentorship: You need to find somebody who sees you and the journey that you're on, and believes that you can do it. That's the first thing they need to be successful in wherever it is that you're trying to go. So, if I'm looking for a successful fighter pilot, they need to have been a successful fighter pilot. And that's what they need to be, right? I can't learn from a successful mechanic or a successful cook, or whatever. They need to be where you're trying to be successful. And then they need to be willing to take the time out of their own life to show you how to do it. Right? And if they're not those three things, then they're not a good mentor. But that doesn't mean they have to be the same color, creed, race, religion — none of that. That is not a factor. So, I was looking at all the wrong factors while looking for mentorship. And so, I really never had any solid mentors going through.   Naviere Walkewicz  36:38 When did you realize that and like, at what point did that kind of shift the way you look at things or the way you, you know, continue to pursue your professional — whether both in the uniform or outside the uniform — career?   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  36:50 So, I realized that when I got around an outside organization that was not part of the military and I found true mentorship. And I think sometimes we're just in the military, we're very busy. And you have to pursue mentorship, right? It's not going to fall in your lap, it's not going to, you know, somebody may pass across your path and say, “I will mentor you if you want.” But if you don't pursue that, it's probably not going to happen, because that person is successful. They're busy, they're doing their thing. And you have to want their mentorship. And so, it wasn't until I was about to separate from active duty and go on to the Reserve that I started to understand what I had kind of missed. And I was like, “Oh, that's that mentorship thing that people have been talking about.” I mean, the word was around for the whole time. But the explanation and my understanding of it was not.   Naviere Walkewicz  37:55 What a good time for that to come, though. Yes. And when you're at that crossroads. So how many years active did you do? 13? OK. And that's interesting, because some people will say, “Once you get to 10, just stay in.” And so that was a big decision for you. What led you to that?   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  38:12 So, it was looking around and saying, “You're 13 years, you have another seven years.” Seven years is a long time. And it's seven years of your life. And seven years of my life, like it's not just seven years, right? And so, I was looking at people 10 years ahead of me, and they were mostly airline pilots, or sim operators. I don't love the simulator. I don't want to operate the simulator, like, I mean, it has its place, its value, it's a valuable tool, but it was not my favorite place to be. So, I did not want to be a sim operator. And, you know, my joke to myself is that, you know, passengers on airlines don't like to go upside down. So, I don't think those are the planes I want to fly either, right? You know, they're, you know, a great career path, you know, but a lot of times as we transition, we look at the skill sets that we've learned. And that kind of easy-button is to just stay with the skill sets. We weren't because we spent, you know, a solid portion of our life, you know, 20 to 30 years learning that skill set. So that's what people would typically lean on. And being the outlier that I am, you know, a strange human being that I've come to be, you know, against the grain. That's not what I wanted to do. I wanted to have impact in other people's lives in a different way. And I was searching for something that I didn't necessarily know. And so, I was able to find it. So I was really excited about that, which really changed my whole trajectory of how I make decisions, why I make decisions. I really dissected things that I had done and what had made me successful in my career to a point, what was holding me back what had held me back from being, you know, from reaching the ranks, which is what some people would consider more success. And how do I want to live? You know, once you become a mom, in my opinion, your priorities change. It wasn't about me and my freedom and flying jets. And it's amazing, and it's awesome. And it's fun, and I love it. And living the fighter pilot life, it was, “I gotta build a life for these kids too,” you know, for my two boys, and I have to be a person that I need to be my boys' hero. Right? So, the rest of the world, you know, they're wishy washy, take it or leave it, you know. Some people are gonna love you, some people are gonna hate you, that's fine. But I need to be my boys' hero. I'm the only person that can be their mom in their life. And I needed to be that.   Naviere Walkewicz  41:05 I really appreciate that. I mean, I'm going back to something you said earlier about, everyone has an individual experience and it shapes them in different ways. And you can't say just because this person had this, others will have this. But I think what you just said really strikes home, because sometimes the biggest decisions we make really don't depend on others — it depends on where we are and what we want to do and who we want to be. So, who did you want to be, in addition to being there for your boys, like you want to be their hero? What did that translate to for you on the outside of military service?   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  41:38 So that translated into, you know, being really a mentor. I wanted to have impact in other's lives. And I realized that sometimes that's going to translate individually to helping people individually. But when you really dive into people's lives — that they actually want mentorship, that actually want change — that's powerful. And that changes families. That changes generations. So I've been able to start working with people on that level.   Naviere Walkewicz  42:21 So it sounds like you made a pretty big leap from, you said, you went to the Reserve, so you had the ability to continue to serve and you know, and then retire in 2020. But you invested in yourself in an entrepreneurial way. And I'm sure there were trials and tribulations and that, in itself, right, because, you know, you have a message to share? And what was that journey like? And how do people who are thinking about something like that do it successfully from what you've learned?   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  42:48 Yeah so I think, you know, really, it is learning your own self-worth. And then not allowing yourself to settle for anything less than that, knowing that you have value to add. And if you are not being treated that way, if you are not able to give your full self in the way that you want to, then maybe, you know, you have to look at it and say, “Is there a better way that I can use this one life that I was given?” And are there other people that need to hear your story, and so part of it was transitioning into speaking, because I learned that I had more value than just being a fighter pilot, right? I think that we are all normal people. And some people choose to do extraordinary things, right. But we're all just people. And anybody's capable of doing something extraordinary if they choose themselves. And so, I really had to unpack that in myself and say, I know when I talk to high schoolers, when I talk to young Black girls, when I talk to any minority, they get excited about possibilities for themselves. And there is value in helping people get excited about possibilities for themselves. Because they get out of their own way. They get out of listening to people who've told them that they only belong in a certain area, certain place, a certain socioeconomic class, whatever it is, and they see possibility. And for me, I knew if there was somebody in the world who could do that for my boys, and they would see a speaker wherever they would see somebody and it brought on possibility for them of what they could do in their life and they didn't do it I would be frustrated. It would be like you're not living your value right. And so, I thought that of myself, I'm like, “If I can show one person that they have more possibility and they have more value than they've ever known that they had and it causes them to act, that's it.” Like, that's why I'm here on this Earth…   Naviere Walkewicz  45:01 You're glowing because you're actually doing something you're so passionate about. I can tell that it really is to your core, you know, the part of your journey. It's wonderful to see when you have that ability to change someone's life, or it's more personal and it leads to, maybe, generational change. Can you share a story or maybe an example where you've had that happen with you and someone else?   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  45:23 So, there's a young man out in Oregon, and his name is Jeremiah Stroupe. And he's one of my mentors. Absolutely. And he has really helped me walk this journey, and has really helped me find the value and be able to communicate it a little bit better. And he has helped my husband and I communicate better. He has helped us get our marriage back on track, he's just helped us get our finances and just understand, like our true value, outside of what people think, right. And I've never been a big, “I worry about what people think.” But we are all a little bit programmed by society, by media by, especially with social media now, but by those things, and you have a tendency to react in different ways to what you are bombarded with. And so he really helps me to walk that line to be better, and to impact more. Because he was able to help me get my life on track in transition, you know, like we were talking about as I was transitioning out of the military, because that's a hard time for people. And do you walk into a space where now you get to be the rest of you, if you weren't that before. Like some people don't have to do that transition. But I feel like walking through the time frame that we have walking through the fighter pilot world, I feel like I had to be a little bit of a chameleon and transform some of who I fully was to assimilate, as opposed to be completely accepted as myself. And so now I get to be me. And that took me years to remember who that was, who that's grown into. And to be able to see my whole self and then be able to value my whole self and then be able to give my whole self — I'm still working on it. It's still a work in progress. I'll work on it till the day I die. But I really had to take a step back. And I realized how much of myself I had put away to do the mission. And so, you know, as people are coming up and they're making these hard decisions — and I would do it again because it's what I wanted to do. I wanted to fly jets, I did fly jets, it was amazing. I've crossed paths with some amazing wingmen, flight leads, leaders, leadership, you know, yeah, there's the people that you know, that you don't get along with. But all in all, it's been an amazing journey. But the walk back to self was a little bit shocking to me, as I kind of unpacked and moved on to the next phase. But it's been really freeing, too. So, it's been awesome.   Naviere Walkewicz  48:33 I feel like time has flown by; there's so many good things we covered. Was there anything that I didn't ask you that you wanted to share with our listeners?   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  48:42 No, we did cover a lot of things. I mean, I think I really love to share that mentorship piece, because I think it's important for people to know that your mentors don't have to look like you, don't have to be like you. In fact, it's better if they're not.   Naviere Walkewicz  48:55 I think that's a great message. I really do. And I think that really opens up — I mean, then it's almost like the whole world is your oyster. Really, you know what I mean? And so, I think that's a beautiful thing. Well, what we'd like to do is we'd like to share with our listeners key lessons they can take away around leadership. And I think we've heard some along the way, but if you had to boil it down, and they're thinking about Col. Kimbrell, Rochelle, what are some of the things you want to leave our listeners with when it comes to leadership?   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  49:21 I would just leave you with: Dare to dream, right? Because what you have in your heart is not necessarily what people are going to see you for, see you as. But it's OK. So dare to have that boldness about yourself, to dream what you want to dream about yourself and then to go after it. And there are going to be obstacles, understand there's going to be obstacles, there's going to be failures. You don't grow unless you fail. And you have to learn how to walk through those but you have to learn from your failures in order to grow from them. And don't be afraid of that. So, I just challenge people to dare to dream — it doesn't matter if you're 10 or if you're 80, there's still more life in you, you can still have another dream, and you can still go after it. And that's really my biggest challenge is a lot of ways to get to places. And I would say, plan your life. Take the time, like you would a 10-day vacation to figure out how you're going to get there. Where do you want to go? And how are you going to get there? And who do you want to take with you?   Naviere Walkewicz  50:36 Thank you. So, may I just ask, what's your dream today?   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  50:41 My dream today is just to be impactful. I want to impact people's lives. I want to empower people to be their best selves. I want to raise good citizens with my two boys. And I want to live free.   Naviere Walkewicz  51:00 Well, I think you're on your way because you inspired me today. So thank you for that.   Lt. Col. (Ret.) Rochelle Kimbrell  51:03 Thank you. Good to be here. Appreciate your time.   Naviere Walkewicz  51:06 Definitely. Thank you.     KEYWORDS fighter pilot, Air Force Academy, childhood, dreams, challenges, perseverance, role model, female fighter pilot, camaraderie, gear, facilities, motherhood, mentorship, transition, speaking, mentoring     The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation      

A conversation with Maj. Julian “Cosmo” Gluck '12, a flyer with the heart of a pilot, the soul of a golden age aviator, and an insatiable yearning to learn. Why? In part to support developing leaders of tomorrow. ----more---- SUMMARY Major Julian "Cosmo" Gluck '12, shares his background and experiences in the Air Force and as a bomber pilot. He discusses his childhood, involvement in various activities, and his decision to join the military. Major Gluck also talks about his leadership roles at the Air Force Academy and the challenges he faced. He then delves into his experience flying B-52s and explains the difference between a pilot and an aviator. Finally, he clarifies the distinction between rated and non-rated officers. He discusses his involvement with the Order of Daedalians, a professional fellowship organization for military aviators. He also shares his experience transitioning to Harvard Business School and the Air Force Reserve and about the importance of leadership across different lanes. Julian reflects on what he has learned about himself and his future plans. He emphasizes the significance of giving back and volunteering, as well as the impact of the Air Force Academy and alumni involvement.   OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "I would say the juxtaposition between the military lifestyle—which often is more regimented—and a desire to both give back and be creative. So these secondary and tertiary desires that I really wanted to have in my personal life and professional life to continue to self-actualize and feel comfortable were always at sort of a crossroads, but the Academy made that possible." "I think there is a lot of strength in knowing that you do not know something. And through my time in business school, there is a lot that I think many of those who are coming from civilian careers—that more directly relate to business—would think is just information that everyone is armed with that is absent for many of us who were not as directly involved in running for-profit organizations or who weren't involved in sales, investment banking, or any of these other careers." "I would say, I'm going to do a plug for the AOG: If there are things that you want your AOG to do, you are the person who can help facilitate that as well, just like I aim to, like many others. An alumni organization, a nonprofit, a charity is only as strong as its membership corps." "I think overall down the road, as long as I'm making a positive impact in my circle and in my community, that's the most important thing to me. Like, I don't want to give up the uniform. I've loved serving in the Air Force, and I'll stay in the Air Force Reserve—hopefully as long as they'll keep me—and it would be great to have more opportunities to lead again." "I would leave you with, if you have some time available, if there's money that you're seeking to donate, there is a cause that will resonate with you. Just go to the search engine of your choice, maybe it's Ask Jeeves … [or] go to Lycos—I think that was a search engine—in your Netscape Navigator. Go look up on AOL these interests, and you'll be able to find a charity that works for you.” - Maj. Julian "Cosmo" Gluck '12   SHARE THIS EPISODE  FACEBOOK  |  LINKEDIN  |  TWITTER  |  EMAIL   CHAPTERS 00:00:  Introduction and Background 04:01:  Childhood and Life Before the Academy 08:01:  Leadership Roles at the Academy 14:53:  Flying B-52s 19:50:  Difference Between Rated and Non-Rated 21:30:  The Order of Daedalians 26:14:  Transitioning to Harvard Business School 30:06:  Leadership Across Different Lanes 33:08:  Learning About Oneself 37:15:  Future Plans 40:10:  Giving Back and Volunteering 42:37:  The Air Force Academy and Alumni Involvement   TAKEAWAYS FOR YOU - The Order of Daedalians is the professional fraternal order of military aviators and commemorates the service and valor of World War I pilots while providing fellowship for current and former flyers today. - Programs like the Civil Air Patrol—the civilian auxiliary of the Air Force—provide another avenue for service members, veterans, and civilians to give back in meaningful ways. - Transitioning from the military to civilian life can provide opportunities for strategic development and new ways to support organizations. - Leadership takes different forms in various contexts, from leading in the military to leading in the classroom. - Humility and the willingness to learn from others are important qualities for personal growth and effective leadership. - Giving back and volunteering in various organizations can provide a sense of fulfillment and make a positive impact in the community. - The Air Force Academy and alumni involvement play a significant role in shaping individuals and fostering a sense of pride and service.   MAJ. GLUCK'S BIO Maj. Julian "Cosmo" Gluck is a reservist in the Defense Innovation Unit in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. He additionally serves as Chairman Emeritus of the Department of the Air Force Company Grade Officers' Council, supporting the 47,000 captains and lieutenants of the Air & Space Forces. Maj. Gluck grew up in LaGrange, Georgia and received his commission in 2012 as a Distinguished Graduate of the United States Air Force Academy. During his career he was selected as the 2018 Air Force Times Airman of the Year, received the 2019 Secretary of the Air Force Leadership Award, was named to the 2020 Forbes 30 Under 30, and chosen as one of the 2023 Ten Outstanding Young Americans by JCI USA. Prior to his current position, Maj. Gluck served on Air Combat Command staff; served as Aide-de-Camp to the Commander of Seventh Air Force; led 64 aircrew flight equipment and SERE personnel; and was Executive Officer for the Department of Defense's largest bomb group. He is an instructor pilot in the B-52H Stratofortress and is a graduate of Euro-NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training. Maj. Gluck flew combat missions in Operations INHERENT RESOLVE and FREEDOM'S SENTINEL out of Al Udeid Air Base, Qatar and has deployed in support of U.S. Indo-Pacific Command. MAJOR AWARDS AND DECORATIONS - Meritorious Service Medal with oak leaf cluster - Air Medal - Aerial Achievement Medal with oak leaf cluster - Air Force Commendation Medal with five oak leaf clusters - Air Force Achievement Medal with oak leaf cluster - German Armed Forces Badge for Military Proficiency in Gold PUBLICATIONS “Opening the Door to Cultural Understanding and Mutual Cooperation,” Journal of Indo-Pacific Affairs, June 2021 “The Gray Legion: Information Warfare Within Our Gates,” Journal of Strategic Security, December 2021 “Kasa-obake: A Spirited Case against Abandoning the U.S.-Japan Nuclear Umbrella,” On the Horizon, May 2022 “South Korea's Second Sight: Risks and Rewards for the ROK-US Alliance with Russia,” Issues & Insights, June 2023 PROFESSIONAL MEMBERSHIPS AND ASSOCIATIONS - British-American Project - Center for a New American Security - Council for the United States and Italy - Order of Daedalians - Pacific Forum   CONNECT WITH JULIAN LINKEDIN  |  @JULIANRGLUCK ON INSTAGRAM     ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!        TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Guest, Maj. Julian "Cosmo" Gluck '12  |  Your Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99   Naviere Walkewicz 00:01 My guest today is Maj. Julian “Cosmo” Gluck, USAFA Class of 2012 graduate of distinction based in Boston. He is currently serving in the Air Force Reserve in the Defense Innovation Unit and pursuing his MBA at the Harvard Business School. There is so much in Maj. Gluck's background that we'll just touch the surface for now. He flew B-52s for more than six years, and in 2023 he was named one of 10 outstanding young Americans, which puts him in the company of American presidents, statesmen and generals, including the Air Force Academy Association and Foundation's Gen. Mike Gould, Class of '76, who received the honor in 1985. In 2020, Maj. Gluck was named to Forbes 30 Under 30 list for law and policy. In 2018, he was named Air Force Times airman of the year. He is a published author, public speaker and contributor to international discourse on public policy, sharing his lessons in leadership with students in elementary school, at university, senior leaders in defense, nonprofits, and national level elected policymakers. We'll talk with Maj. Gluck about his work as a member of the Air Force Reserve, and how that relates to his membership in the Order of Daedalians, a fraternal organization founded after World War I comprised of aviators. He is a gregarious man of warmth, humility and humor, always willing to share what he knows with those aspiring to become aviators, lead or be better leaders, and always ready with an enthusiastic, “Howdy!” This should be a very enjoyable conversation. Joining us from Boston, Julian, welcome to Long Blue Leadership.   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 01:42 Well, I feel like I have to say howdy now, but I was gonna' say it anyway. So good to be here.   Naviere Walkewicz 01:46 Howdy. So glad you're here with us today. Thank you for making the time. We are really excited to learn more about your thoughts on leadership. But as we like to, we want to kind of take a step back, rewind the time a little bit and learn about young Julian. Why don't we start there? Tell us about your childhood life before the Academy.   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 02:06 Sure. So, I grew up all around primarily the southeastern United States. My dad's a pilot and was going through different positions. My mom's an occupational therapist. They had met in Texas, but I was born in Florida. And then over the course of my childhood, I lived in Florida, Tennessee, Maryland, South Carolina and Georgia, where I finished out elementary school, middle school and then high school. And when I was a kid, I was involved in a myriad of different activities. I really enjoyed acting and got the chance to co-star in a public broadcasting television show with the GPB, one of the stations back in Georgia. I did a little bit of entrepreneurship, starting a company when I was 14. I became involved in the Civil Air Patrol and high school wrestling, extemporaneous speech competitions. And with all the different activities going on, I wanted to continue on the tradition in my family of military service. Applied to the Air Force Academy. Thankfully, the “Zoo” let me in. And it's been a great time since.   Naviere Walkewicz 03:04 Who were some of the influences in your life that kind of led you down that path. I know you mentioned, you know, your family has had many that have served. Are those who influenced you? Are there others maybe that you read or influenced you as well.   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 03:16 The members of my family are the largest influence on my decision to join the military. I'm fifth generation. As you go through different lines in the family, people on both sides had served primarily in the United States and hearing their stories of both sacrifice of putting the organization over oneself, the service to country really resonated with me as a kid. And so I knew even when I was very young that I wanted to serve in the military, as well as a lot of the reading I did as a child, I would say. And then going through my time at the Academy was also very much a philosophical focus throughout. A lot of philosophy mixed in as well with the standard books that one would read as a kid.   Naviere Walkewicz 04:01 Five generations. Would you say that it was destiny then to go into the military via the Air Force Academy or just the military in general? Or was it really intentional on your part?   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 04:11 I think there were definitely some elements of the Academy being the destination. Now as far as Air Force Academy versus a few of the others, I would say lesser options with our rivals on the East Coast there. I wasn't initially sure which one I was going to apply to. And ultimately the Air Force Academy made the most sense to me, primarily because of the Academy's awesome record of placing people into really impactful, strategic roles later on. I like the emphasis on technology. And I think as well, having a Japanese program which only the Air Force Academy and maybe the Naval Academy had, I wanted to take Japanese classes, so that was something that was on my mind.   Naviere Walkewicz 04:54 Did you take Japanese class?   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 04:56 [Speaking Japanese here.] So, I did indeed study Japanese. It was my minor at the Academy, and sometimes really useful either in like bilateral track to diplomatic scenarios or ordering sushi at really nice restaurants.   Naviere Walkewicz 05:16 I don't think I would be as successful. All I remember is [speaking Japanese here], which is, “Where is the bathroom.”   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 05:22 That's really important.   Naviere Walkewicz 05:26 So let's talk about the Academy. Maybe what were some of the roles in leadership you had? Or let's just talk about your Academy experience in general. Kind of set the stage for us.   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 05:34 So, the first leadership role I ever had at the Academy was the Mitchell Hall Food Focus Committee. So, Doolie year, freshman year, I'm sitting in the SAR, the squadron assembly room — I'm not sure if the audience is all super-familiar with the acronyms or if they've changed over time — but I'm in the SAR, and they're like, “Hey, we have a volunteer opportunity.” And I'm just thinking in my mind, I've been at the Academy for a few weeks, this is my chance to be an impactful leader early on, and they just needed someone to test out the food at Mitchell Hall. I raised my hand really proudly. And over the course of the year, I gave my own attempt at food criticism to the excellent staff and Mitchell Hall trying to shape the meals cadets would have. Now, I'm not sure if I've had any jobs since then that is quite as impactful. I'm still trying to chase that incredible opportunity to rate how hard the cookies were, or that the chicken fillet sandwiches were pretty solid. But after that one, I would go into primarily roles that were focused on sort of command-oriented leadership, I was the first sergeant I believe, squadron superintendent for basic cadet training. I served on group staff a couple of times culminating as the Group Commander for Cadet Group 1, First Group, so I had a great time doing that. My summers were spent flying gliders, doing the SERE program when we still had CST, and as well as getting the chance to do an internship at the Senate. So, I was the one cadet that was sent there as sort of an interim military legislative assistant, and did basic another time, as well as the Director of Military Guidance Officers. Another role that I did through sophomore through first year was the Personal Ethics and Education Representative Program, the Peer Program, at a really good time. And I thought that it was really valuable getting to speak with cadets who are having troubles in their personal life, professional life, and really be able to help for more challenging issues, such as ones that may involve the law or medical needs. And then for ones that I felt like I could have a good handle on being able to practice my interpersonal communication and super useful later on in my career.   Naviere Walkewicz 08:06 You held many leadership positions, and I'm sure there are many accolades that came with that. What were some of the challenges that you experienced in those positions? And how did you balance being a leader all the time with your own needs, and developing yourself?   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 08:20 I would say the juxtaposition between the military lifestyle which often is more regimented, and a desire to both give back and be creative. So, these secondary and tertiary desires that I really wanted to have in my personal life and professional life continue to self-actualize and feel comfortable. We're always at sort of a crossroads. But the Academy thankfully made that possible. Now I did that at the expense of probably getting eight hours of sleep per night, maybe about half of that most of the time, and a lot of all-nighters, but I think there were some people who are just hardcore DGs and still got eight hours of sleep. I'm not one of those. I did not get a lot of it. But when I was there doing the cadet leadership jobs, I needed an outlet. So, for Doolie year, I acted with Blue Bards, I tried to relive a little bit of that child acting background and that was a lot of fun. We did Grease and 12 Angry Men. Then through both four degree year, all the way up through first year, and a little bit as a casual lieutenant, I sung with the In the Stairwell acapella group, and was a beatboxer and sung bass as well. And that was a phenomenal time getting to perform for the senior leaders that came in at the White House a couple times, and then later on getting to relive that as well as an alumnus at the America's Got Talent semifinals doing an exhibition before the then current crop of cadets just totally crushed it out there on the stage. So, I think throughout that time at the Academy, just being able to go, “Hey, I need to really focus on academics, I need I grow in my leadership capabilities.” But I also want creative things. And then community service-oriented things. And that was where I became involved with programs like the Knights of Columbus, when I was a cadet finding ways to give back and the local community and lead volunteer projects across the state of Colorado and then eventually, nationally, internationally.   Naviere Walkewicz 10:20 I really appreciate you sharing that. Because I think sometimes there might be a misconception or a perception even that, you know, you can be a leader and you have to be really strict and focus and you can't really focus on other things that you're really passionate about, or you know, that bring joy as well. Right. So maybe you can't have both, but I really appreciate that you shared that you can. So, do you prefer beatboxing or bass? What does that sound like?   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 10:44 Well, these days, so I recently joined the Harvard Business School acapella group, which is called Heard on the Street. And I'm still beatboxing. But I'm getting a little bit more into the singing part primarily because over the past 10 years, it's mostly been playing along with my guitar, and singing karaoke. So, I definitely enjoy beatboxing but I'm enjoying doing more singing these days as well.   Naviere Walkewicz You're holding back on…   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 Go to YouTube and see some old clips. I think I'll refrain from beatboxing on your… I haven't checked this mic to see if like a…. [Beatboxing]   Naviere Walkewicz 11:25 So, that was amazing. No, I think that the mic came through fantastically. And no, that is wonderful. We really appreciate that. And again, it also plays into, you know, we really can be fully immersed in a lot of things, right? We don't have to just be down one lane when it comes to leadership and, you know, pursuing our dreams. So, let's talk a little bit about while you were in the military. You share that you flew B-52s for over six years. What was that experience like? And then I'm gonna' ask you a follow-on about flying because there's something as a non-flier, non-rated grad, I just have a question on so first, tell us about what it was like flying B-52.   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 12:05 So, flying the B-52, aka the “Buff,” was a blast. It's a very challenging aircraft, I think, compared to many others in the inventory. It is an older platform. It's older than my father. And based on earlier versions that are older than both my parents, and probably many of the current cadets' grandparents. My grandfather, in fact, asked me when I told him I fly the B-52, “They're still flying those?” And I was like, “Indeed, Grandpa, and you enlisted in the Air Force after they'd already been in service.” But I can tell you, although they are up there in years, it's a very lethal platform. It's an effective platform. It's constantly being brought to the forefront of innovation through the incredible work that the tech community does, that the primes and other companies are able to leverage with different technologies as far as munitions, its radar capabilities, a lot of exciting changes with new engines that will be coming about for the next generation of bomber pilots. So, I enjoyed flying it. It definitely had its moments where it tested my limits. And I'm super grateful for the instructors and weapons school graduates who helped develop me from a young, very uncertain co-pilot to being a more adept, and I would say, empowered aviator, as I continued to like, become more comfortable, and eventually have the chance before I departed the community for other opportunities to instruct as well.   Naviere Walkewicz 13:39 What were some of the challenges that you faced in that? Was it more just a level of comfort? Or was it other things?   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 13:44 I think in the B-52, there's a wide range of different mission-sets that you need to be familiarized with. I mean, not only the nuclear deterrence mission, that is the Secretary of Defense's No. 1 priority, and extremely critical for our ability to deter and assure you also have the close air support mission, you see just a massive suite of different weapons, you need to be able to control an aircraft that has sometimes sluggish controls. And as you're powering through different regimes in the airplane, you also need to be not only taking care of your own aircraft, but if you're flying in formation, as a formation leader, mission leader or even a mission commander, you need to be able to have an awareness of all the other aircraft and players that are out there in the “kill box” or wherever you're operating. So, I think as we're moving up from co-pilot to aircraft commander and mission lead and eventually to instructor, the stakes become higher. The challenges as far as your knowledge set your situational awareness and task management increase. And thankfully with great instructors and those in more senior positions who believed in the opportunity to continue to progress, I had the just joy of a lifetime getting to fly the B-52. Particularly with my crew in 2016 to [2017], as a young co-pilot out in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan in operations Inherent Resolve and Freedom Sentinel. So, by far the most impactful, meaningful six months of my life, and that would not have been possible without the B-52 community.   Naviere Walkewicz 15:29 That's really powerful. Thank you. One of the questions that's on my mind, and I think for others that maybe aren't in the aviation community — so, pilot versus aviator: Can you demystify this?   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 15:40 Sure, I'll do my best. And I think it also depends on which branch, the terminology differs a little bit, I believe in the Navy particularly. But for the Air Force, I would normally think of an aviator as a rated individual who would either be a pilot, a weapons systems officer or navigator, a flight surgeon, others who have a set of wings on the officer side, and that take part in some aspect of the airplane. Pilots in particular are the ones normally controlling the aircraft as far as the movements of it, which you would normally think of as aviating — whereas like weapon system officers doing the navigating.   Naviere Walkewicz 16:26 That is helpful. One of the things we do is we know we have a group of listeners that may not know some of our terms. So, can you explain the difference between rated and nonrated?   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 16:35 I will do my best with that as well. So, a rated officer is a person who has gone through a formal technical training program that relates to the flying of a particular mission system. Whether that is an aircraft or a UAS, or remotely piloted aircraft. So, unmanned aerial system for UAS, so these individuals have on their service dress or mess dress or on their flight suit, a set of links that indicate that there's this particular skill set that was developed over time. And the rated aviators have particular requirements. As far as medical, in addition to their technical training, you have to make sure you're able to still fly. And they also have certain other personnel system requirements. So, when I think rated, I think of a person who is in the cockpit or on the airplane with a very specific job of like, an air battle manager is a rated aviator, who on different command control platforms, has a particular mission set with controlling battlespace, that's also considered rated.   Naviere Walkewicz 17:48 We want to make sure that everyone feels able to connect with what you're sharing. So that was a fantastic…   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 17:54 If there's anything wrong, just go to the comments. Just continue to like — increase the social media exposure by saying, “Cosmo, you're wrong!” And I'll make it.   Naviere Walkewicz 18:03 No, that's perfect. Thank you. Well, before we kind of leave this topic of aviation, I'd really like to learn a little bit more about the Order of the Daedalians. Can you talk about this organization a bit? How did it come to be part of your life? I think that's just one that we're not all familiar with.   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 18:20 The Order of Daedalians is a professional order of military aviators that was founded by World War I pilots around 1934. And these particular pilots wanted to start an organization that would commemorate the service that occurred, all the valor that took place in the skies for the Great War, and then afterward to be able to continue to interact with each other and then have a network of convivial interaction between them. But over time, the Order of the Daedalians, and through its charitable arm, the Daedalian Foundation, has grown into this organization for all military aviators of around 10,000. I believe in our current membership, and our organization not only helps connect aviators from the past and present, but also to continue to commemorate that service of the founders of the organization. We do scholarships to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars to help students in ROTC programs who wish to become military aviators. And we also have in addition to those academic scholarships, flight scholarships that teach people how to fly. We have a program that supports a Junior ROTC and awards program for different rated aviation training programs to celebrate the success and excellence of the students who are in there. So as the youngest member of the board of trustees, I'm grateful to get to learn from incredible senior leaders and general officers who have flown a variety of different aircraft. And I think it is a wonderful program for those who are still on active duty or in the Reserve as well as those who have separated or who are retired, who would like to continue to swap stories. There are a lot of fantastic speakers who come in and continue to contribute to the next generation of flyer while still paying homage or respect to those who came before us.   Naviere Walkewicz 20:16 What's something that's been really personal to you that you've been proud to see the Order of the Daedalians take part in? Can you share maybe a more specific story?   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 20:24 So, coming into the organization, I noticed that we had, and I will say this resonates with a lot of sort of Golden Age fraternal organizations like the Knights of Columbus and many others, a wealth of experience with our older members who are very dedicated. Perhaps they're fully retired from their jobs, they have a lot of time to give back, but not as many younger members who are coming in, particularly those who are still actively wearing the uniform and flying. So thankfully, with the support of the full-time professionals at the Order of Daedalians and our trustees and directors at the foundation and the order itself, we got together to discuss a lot of ways to innovate the organization to bring it into its next phase, particularly to help drive recruitment and retention with a lot of these potential younger members by having the opportunity to go to bases and really advocate that the order of the Order of the Daedalians is not only a force for good in that it's helping train new aviators, which is a critical need for the national security enterprise, but it's also a fantastic retention tool by providing a strong network of mentorship. So my hope is that a lot of the meetings that we had take place that focused on bringing everyone together, will eventually culminate in a desire for perhaps any listeners to this particular podcast, who go, “You know what, this is a historic program, I would like to volunteer or be a part of it and get to listen to some amazing stories, and then do my part to give back as well.”   Naviere Walkewicz 21:59 Thank you for sharing that. And that really speaks very clearly to me. That's one of the things here at the Association that we're working to do as well, you know, really ignite our younger graduates into membership and participation and engagement. Well, let's shift gears a little bit from the world of aviation, you know, you talked about it as a cadet, you had kind of two facets that you're really interested in the creative side, and also the leadership side. Of course, they don't have to be mutually exclusive. Maybe you can talk about what it's like now to transition. You're at the Harvard Business School, you're an author, let's talk about this lane a little bit.   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 22:35 So, I am super grateful to be a reservist. I had a really engaging time on active duty. It was fantastic for leadership development with some fantastic leaders over the years. But the wonderful thing about the Air Force is there's so many different ways to continue serving in uniform. One of my big interests, that was my desire to go back to school, and find other opportunities to support organizations, including the United States government, through ways that I thought were more focused on strategic development. Going to the Reserve, transitioning through the Palace Chase program, and going back to school has made all of that possible. So as a reservist, now I'm assigned to the Defense Innovation Unit, and the Office of the Secretary of Defense where we help with dual-use technologies, helping bring a lot of the technologists and founders leaders of different programs who have ideas that can support a range of portfolios for the Department of Defense, such as autonomy, AI, energy, human systems, bringing those together to help improve our DOD systems, particularly for a lot of these smaller companies that could use a lot of support. So that has been fantastic. I'm still very much in an embryonic stage within my Reserve service. There's a lot for me to learn. And as I'm going through this transition, it's been amazing getting to talk to reservists who've been there and done that. They've done the transition, and they're continuing to give back. It's not about the money for them. It's about a way to continue to give back to our United States military. And that's something it's really inspiring to me, and inspired me a lot when I was out in Korea as an aide and with all the reservists who would come in to be part of the chase and take time away from their families and from their busy jobs to suit up, you know, put on their flight suits, come out to Korea and really make a difference for our bilateral/multilateral organizations out there. So that's been fantastic. At Harvard, it's been a wonderful learning opportunity. I loved my time at the Academy. I wouldn't trade it for anything. It was the perfect undergrad experience for me. Now going through as a grad school student, I'm kind of getting to see that other side. I've got the more college dorm-style apartment even though I'm not living on campus. As you know, it's not quite hacky sack in the quad that I was imagining that college would be. But the range of different people who are members of the HBS Class of 2025 is so interesting, people from all around the world, very different backgrounds. I mean, of course, we have venture capitalists, consultants, bankers here, but there's also a very, I would say, engaged and interesting veteran group. And I really love hanging out with the other veterans who are in both my section and the class at large. In fact, one of the traditions that we started in my section is the veterans would all wear Hawaiian shirts on Fridays, and so I had to buy a lot more Hawaiian shirts, because I was never stationed at Hawaii, did not have a hardly any of them. And that's where I found this Air Force Academy, Hawaiian shirt.   Naviere Walkewicz 25:55 So, that is outstanding.   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 25:58 I don't think anyone else who's coming on your podcast is probably gonna' have one of these. So, yes, it's been really great at HBS. I'm learning a lot. I have two and a half more semesters left. And I'm excited for what comes next as well.   Naviere Walkewicz 26:12 Well, let's dig into that a little bit. So, you went to the Academy, you had incredible opportunities to lead. You've done some of this in the Reserve. And then also, at Harvard, what does leadership look like across those different lanes? How have you seen leadership evolve, and how has it shaped you during this time?   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 26:34 The opportunities I had to lead both at the Academy and on active duty, certainly inform and help bring different context and experience to the leadership opportunities I may have at school now or that I hope to have in the future. I will say there's a lot to learn to bring that into full realization as I continue through this transition from military to the civilian world. So as I look at like my experience as a flight commander for aircrew, flight equipment technicians, and SERE when I was at Barksdale, or getting to serve as a director of staff at Air Combat Command, and the A-3, a lot of those involved, be able to help our junior enlisted to be able to work with phenomenal senior non-commissioned officers how to help pass information up and down the chain to innovate, to go through a lot of the administrative challenges that are elements of bureaucracy and probably omnipresent no matter what sort of organization you're in. So those have been great. Now, at school, I would say a lot of the leadership could be leadership in the classroom. For me as someone not coming from Goldman Sachs or Bain, I have a lot of learning and followership I'm enjoying in the classroom right now is getting to really just taken a lot from all of the incredible experiences of my younger section mates and classmates who have had very relevant experience. And then the aspects of the veteran experience that also relate myself and many others in the veteran community who are students at my business school, and I'm sure at many of the other ones across the country in the world are able to relate to is also super-useful. So, I'm excited as I go into professional work, both this summer and after graduation, to be able to bring the gregariousness as described at the beginning to my next job and a lot of those fantastic opportunities to learn and serve in the military as I continue to grow and hopefully become a more effective cross-sector leader.   Naviere Walkewicz 28:48 So, you talked about, you know, you have a lot to learn. What has been something you've learned about yourself so far in this journey, thinking about leadership and what our listeners are hoping to glean? You know, what's something you've learned about yourself weather as a follower, to your point, you know, how important is it to be a follower in the world of leadership, etc.?   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 29:10 I think there's a lot of strength in knowing that you do not know something. And through my time in business school, there is a lot that I think many of those who are coming from civilian careers that more directly relate to business would think is just information that everyone is armed with. That is absent for many of us who were not as directly involved in running for profit organizations or who weren't involved in sales, investment banking or any of these other careers. So, during my time at HBS, I've definitely practiced the skill of humility. I have seen it in action with some of the challenging tests that I have taken so far over the past semester and a half and I'm learning about myself the sorts of activities that I really enjoy as I consider the kind of careers that are on the outside flying airplanes. And then going into, let's say consulting is a big leap. But there are also a lot of elements of that sort of leadership that are, I would say, at least are correlate with each other. And as I continue to figure out, what am I skilled at, what do I enjoy, and sometimes those aren't always aligned, I can reach out to mentors to classmates, to grads, in particular, I've reached out to a lot of grads who are out there in the civilian world to find out, ‘What do you recommend? How do I improve? How do I grow in this?' And I'm excited for the kind of development that I hope to see and that I will strive to really develop over the next year and a half and then many years ahead?   Naviere Walkewicz 30:54 And has there been a tidbit of leadership from some of those mentors, you've reached out to in the graduate committee or across different lanes that have really impacted you? And if so, what would you share with the group?   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 31:06 I would say, a lot of the grads I have spoken with that are maybe from like the '90s and 2000s, who have gone to business school or law school or medical school, have shared how much of an impact the military had on them. And where there are sometimes vacuums for that sort of selfless leadership and that aspect of giving back that are in uniform, that you really need something like that, to continue to really feel like you're giving it your all, and that you're in the right place - that you could be like, you could be making millions and millions of dollars. That is a story that was relayed to me by a former Air Force pilot. But if you are not finding a way to really do something for others, it may come across meaningless in many ways, like you can be happy on a yacht. I'm sure if anyone out there has got one, I'm happy to hop on sometime over spring break. But programs like the Civil Air Patrol to the Air Force Auxiliary, that giveaway for grads, who are perhaps still in uniform or out of uniform to continue to give back to do things such as domestic search and rescue, or helping mentor and teach middle school, high school and college students. Those are ways that like really connect you with service, that aren't full time jobs, that have less responsibility. I would say then continuing to serve in the Reserve and still allow a lot of different freedoms that maybe you want to experience that provide another shade of meaning that perhaps you're not getting in one full career.   Naviere Walkewicz 32:44 And I think that's really meaningful for people to hear, right? I think, when you're looking at success, how you define success, certainly, there's an element of being able to have the freedom to do things that you want, that money brings. But there's also the fulfillment internally that comes from being part of or doing something bigger. So how much longer in your program?   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 33:03 So, I've got two and a half semesters left. I'll graduate, God willing, or I think I remember from my four-degree days, and basically that 20, if you make it that far, like I heard that a lot.   Naviere Walkewicz 33:16 All right, so May 2025. What's next, Julian?   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 33:19 I'm not sure quite yet after graduation. This summer, I have a really phenomenal opportunity lined up to be a consultant with McKinsey & Company in their London office. So, this is the pre-LinkedIn update. I'll be at McKinsey this summer. I applied to a few other fellowships, and I'm interested in finding ways to continue to learn about these different sectors, how one can grow a company as well as an organization that is a not-for-profit, like most of my experience or within government service. After graduation, I hope to have continued opportunities over the decades to come to give back. Certainly interested in public service, as well as being able to develop different organizations. So, we'll see. But I'm definitely excited for this summer. And I think there's a lot that I have to learn with McKinsey just across the pond.   Naviere Walkewicz 34:18 You're certainly no stranger to kind of putting everything into something and kind of seeing the benefits that come from that — all of the awards I went through beyond learning and seeing what's out there, what you just described, is there something else that you're like, at some point down the road, this is something I'm striving for?   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 34:34 I think overall down the road, as long as I'm making a positive impact in my circle — and in my community — that's the most important thing to me. Like I don't want to give up the uniform. I've loved serving in the Air Force and I'll stay in the Air Force Reserve, hopefully as long as they'll keep me and it would be great to have more opportunities to lead again. Being a flight commander was immensely rewarding. I really loved working with the airmen and if I had other opportunities to lead more directly in the future, I'd love to do so. And hopefully continue to give back, serve other organizations and continue to volunteer at the local level and on up.   Naviere Walkewicz 35:13 And you've had many different experiences in leadership. What are the one or two things you want to leave with the audience to take away from this from you?   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 35:24 I would say and I'll plug sort of my company grade Officers Council message. I had a great time in CGSC as lieutenant and a captain and now serving as chairman emeritus for the department, Air Force CTOC. I would say that, for those who are still on active duty, wherever you're stationed, there is a fantastic place where you can serve your community and do your part. And for our grads, and retirees, no matter where you're at, there is a charity that would love to have you on their team. So, providing your time, your talents, your treasure to a variety of organizations, if you want to work with kids, there are fantastic charities out there that will help you mentor the next generation. If you want to support the elderly and those who've come before us. There are plenty of organizations as well. So, I would leave you with, if you have some time available, if there's money that you're seeking to donate, there is a cause that will resonate with you, just go to the search engine of your choice. Maybe it's Ask Jeeves and just put, you know, what I might have to check after this broadcast. Just making sure I said a different one, it would sound like maybe a sponsorship message, but go to Lycos I think that was a search engine in your Netscape Navigator, go look up on AOL, your interests, and you'll be able to find a charity that works for you. And for the other tidbit of leadership, if there is something that you are not good at, there are people who will help you who care about you, that will continue to take time to help you improve in that. And I'm finding that every day at HBS as I make my way through finance classes and accounting that there are classmates who know far more than me, are far smarter than me. And that can really help out. And I think that's the same in uniform, I got lots of help when I was a pilot in the B-52 and would never have made it through pilot training or the bomber schoolhouse in the FTP or many other programs without incredible support from peers and instructors. So that's what I'll leave.   Naviere Walkewicz 37:32 Those are gifts of information that just keep giving in so many ways. So, thanks for sharing that. Well, we're at a point where I want to make sure that you had a chance to share everything that you would like to with our listeners. Was there anything I didn't ask you, or something that you really want to share when it comes to leadership?   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 37:50 I would say, I'm gonna do a plug for the AOG. If there are things that you want your AOG to do, you are the person who can help facilitate that as well. Just like I aim to, like, many others, an alumni organization, a nonprofit, a charity is only as strong as its membership corps. So, as you continue to think about how you want the Air Force Academy to be a part of your life after graduation, if you're the kind of person that says, “Hey, I drove away from Arnold Hall or North Gate or South Gate with the chapel in my rearview mirror, and it's kind of the furthest thing from my memory at this point,” then, I urge you to consider the impact that the school had, whether it was the those icy days marching outside, or perhaps some of the more fond memories that you'll have of the Zoo. Not everything and everyone's cadet experience was perhaps what you hoped it would be. But all of us were shaped by that experience there. I love the Academy. I got a lot out of it. And I hope to continue to give back to it, whether it's through the AOG, or just being able to talk with the current crop of cadets, alumni and give back. We're either cadets or alumni of an incredible institution. And let's show those other service academies that the Air Force Academy is truly the premier military academy in the United States.   Naviere Walkewicz 39:15 I can get behind that. That's outstanding. Thank you so much. So Julian, for our listeners. If anyone wants to get a hold of you, how would you suggest they do that?   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 39:23 You'll probably find me surrounded by case studies at HBS. So just wake me up so I'll do some more studying. Other ways — you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm one of the only Julian Glucks. You can also find me on Instagram, it's JulianRGluck. If you put it without the “R”, it'll be one of those other Julian Glucks who's probably tired of people reaching out to him. So, I'm happy to talk with current cadets, grads and continue to build those bonds that we have as Zoomies.   Naviere Walkewicz 39:54 Thank you so much for joining us today on Long Blue Leadership, Julian. It's been fantastic.   Maj. Julian Gluck '12 39:58 Always happy to chat with you and anyone else from the glorious old Zoo so thank you very much   Naviere Walkewicz 40:03 Thank you.     KEYWORDS aviators, cadets, leadership, academy, volunteer, organization, continue, flying, Air Force Academy, Julian, Gluck, give, military, charity, opportunities, pilot, serve, learn, rated, fantastic, program, leader     The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation      

To influence for good, character paired with strong leadership skills is paramount. Brig. Gen. (Ret.) Dana Born '83 brings the two together in Ep. 8 of Long Blue Leadership. ----more---- SUMMARY Brig. Gen. (Ret.) Dana Born discusses the importance of character and leadership in the Air Force Academy's mission. She shares her background and career, including her time as the Dean of Faculty at the Academy. The General reflects on her class reunion experience and the impact of her family's military background. She explores the concept of leaders being born vs. made and highlights the value of curiosity and courage in leadership. Gen. Born emphasizes the importance of seeking help and mentorship and shares recommended readings for developing leadership skills.   OUR FAVORITE QUOTES "Character and leadership are paramount for Air Force Academy graduates to influence for good." "I think that if I were to say there's two really important takeaways, those for me have been, be curious, be more curious. And that is just really asking a lot of questions." "I think leading with your heart and leading with, like the recognition that things that are hard, make your heart rate go up. Courage, you know, our heart rate goes up when we're in danger physically, morally, psychologically. And I think leaning into that to where our heart rate goes up a little bit is how we learn and grow." "I think there's that keeping the both and in the integration of that is what helped me in some of those tough decisions. I mean, I remember having to take a security clearance away from a lieutenant colonel, for all the right reasons, but trying, you know, that person then was going to lose their position in the Air Force, because it required a security clearance. And, and it wasn't a situation that I put that person in, right, they put themselves in that position, but what I didn't want to do was deliver the news in a way that then the individual would feel like they have nothing left right to or would ultimately, you know, take their life, right, that always was present to say, uh, don't want this person to go away with anything other than, you know, your life is not over." "I think courage, you know, the root word of courage is heart. And I think leading with your heart and leading with, like the recognition that things that are hard, make your heart rate go up. Courage, you know, our heart rate goes up when we're in danger physically, morally, psychologically. And I think leaning into that to where our heart rate goes up a little bit is how we learn and grow."  - Brig. Gen. (Ret.) Dana Born '83   SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK  |  LINKEDIN  |  TWITTER  |  EMAIL     CHAPTERS 00:00  Introduction: Character and Leadership 01:22  General Bourne's Background and Career 05:36  Early Life and Decision to Attend the Air Force Academy 08:19  Becoming the Dean of Faculty at the Air Force Academy 11:49  Challenges and Lessons as Dean 22:59  Discovering Leadership Abilities 24:24  Lessons from Friction Moments 26:19  Pivoting and Overcoming Challenges 27:49  Best Attributes of Leaders 29:46  Seeking Help and Mentorship 32:06  Balancing Compassion and Difficult Decisions 34:26  Family's Influence on Leadership 38:12  Developing Leadership Skills: Curiosity and Courage 40:04  Purpose and Passion 41:53  Recommended Readings 44:42  Conclusion     GEN. BORN'S BIO Dana H. Born (Co-Director, Center for Public Leadership (CPL); Faculty Chair, Senior Executive Fellows (SEF) Program; Lecturer in Public Policy, Harvard Kennedy School of Government) is a retired Brigadier General with 30 years of service in the United States Air Force. Prior to coming to Harvard, from 2004-2013, she served two terms as the Dean of the Faculty at the United States Air Force Academy where she was also the Professor and Head of the Behavioral Sciences and Leadership Department. Previously, Dana served as an Exchange Officer with the Royal Australian Air Force, Assistant Director for Recruiting Research and Analysis for the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Force Management Policy), Deputy Chief of the Personnel Issues Team for the Department of the Air Force (DC/Staff Personnel), Aide and Speech Writer to the Secretary of the Air Force, Squadron Commander for 11th Mission Support Squadron at Bolling AFB, DC and in Afghanistan in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. A graduate with distinction of the United States Air Force Academy, Professor Born received her B.S. in Behavioral Sciences (1983), M.S. in Experimental Psychology from Trinity University, TX (1985), M.A. in Research Psychology from University of Melbourne (1991) and Doctorate in Industrial and Organizational Psychology from Penn State University (1994). She received Penn State University's Alumni Fellow Award (2012) and Distinguished Alumni Award (2018) and was awarded an Honorary Doctorate from Simmons College in Humane Administration (2007). Born is the recipient of the Secretary of the Air Force's Eugene M. Zuckert Award for Outstanding Management Achievement, Air Force Association's Hoyt S. Vandenberg Award for outstanding contributions to Aerospace education, Air Force Distinguished Service Medal, Legion of Merit and Defense Meritorious Service Medal. She has been honored with the Harvard Kennedy School (HKS) Annual Teaching Awards as well as the Harvard Kennedy School of Government Innovation in Teaching Award in 2017. Dr. Born is a Trustee on the United States Air Force Academy's Falcon Foundation – serving on the Strategy, Governance and Scholarship Committees; Supporting Director on the USAFA Endowment Board, Past President of the Massachusetts Women's Forum; Senior Consultant for the Core Leadership Institute; Peer Evaluator for the Higher Learning Commission; Member of the Women Corporate Directors, International Women's Forum and Council on Foreign Relations; Council Member on Boston Mayor's Pay Equity Workforce; Advisory Board Member for “With Honor;” and “A Child's Guide to War” documentary, “Blue Star Families,” Senior Officer for Mission: Readiness; Past-President of the American Psychological Association (Society for Military Psychology) and previous Independent Director on Board of the Apollo Education Group having served on Compensation, Audit and Special Litigation Committees.  - Copy and image credit:  Harvard University         Gen. Born is a member of the HOW Conversations video (and podcast) series hosting team, bringing together a varied group of experts and leaders to discuss timely issues of our reshaped world through the lenses of moral leadership, principled decision-making, and values-based behavior. VIEW THE VIDEO SERIES  |  LISTEN TO THE PODCAST  - Copy and image credit:  Harvard University     ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership is a production of the Long Blue Line Podcast Network, drops every two weeks on Tuesdays, and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!          FULL TRANSCRIPT   SPEAKERS Our guest, Brig. Gen. (Ret.) Dana Born '83  |  Our host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz   Gen. Dana Born  00:06 Through mentorship and wise counsel, in early days actually and magnified through the time at the Air Force Academy, that character is paramount. It's also not enough, because you want to be a person of strong character that also has leadership, qualities that help influence for good. We can have leadership where people are able to influence but maybe not for good. And we can have character but have people of great character that aren't able to mobilize the influence. And so, I have just been, I guess, embracing that character and leadership aspect of our mission.   Naviere Walkewicz  01:19 My guest today is retired Brigadier General Dana Born, a 1983, graduate of the Air Force Academy. I'm excited to host this conversation with General Born, a recognized and widely respected expert in moral leadership, serving as a lecturer in public policy at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government. We're going to explore the trajectory of General Born's own development as a leader. Our conversation will begin with her days as a cadet at the Air Force Academy, where she received a Bachelor of Science degree in Behavioral Science and Leadership. General Born began building her body of work then, first as a student, then analyst and researcher, now writer, teacher and speaker on public policy and society in the field of moral leadership as a How Institute for Society Distinguished Fellow through her distinguished 30 year military career, and since her retirement from the Air Force in 2013, she has been formally recognized more than 20 times for her exemplary service and academic excellence. In 2004, she became the first female Academy graduate to return to her alma mater as the Dean of Faculty, a role she held for two terms. Her work has been published more than 40 times and she has delivered nearly 200 presentations. General Born has endorsed more than a dozen books on leadership and public policy, and has contributed to five others. In addition to her work at Harvard, she hosts a video podcast series called HOW Conversations during which she discusses the tenets of moral leadership. Her guests include nationally and internationally recognized leaders from the private, military and public sectors. General Born. Welcome, and thank you for being here today.   Gen. Dana Born  02:54 Thank you so much for the wonderful introduction. And it's great to be in the Long Blue Line conversation with you and all our other members of our tremendous extended family in our Air Force. So glad to be here.   Naviere Walkewicz  03:07 Thank you so much, ma'am. And you know, you recently were just here for a reunion. How was that experience?   Gen. Dana Born  03:13 It was spectacular. The only way I can describe it is like going to see family members that you haven't seen for a while. And even after 44 years, since our induction day, it was like just picking up where, you know, we left off in terms of the connection, the common bond, it was probably better than I anticipated. And I can't actually explain why. But it was just so special. It was poignant as well, because certainly during those times, we spend time reflecting on those that are no longer with us. And it was very powerful in terms of the way that our class decided to do that with. We don't call it a yellow cap, right, because there's nothing yellow in the military, but with our gold caps. And classmate who remembered our fallen friend, and lit a candle on behalf of them. And it was too many hats. It was too many candles, it was too many people that we have lost. But it was something that was spectacular in another way because we had such great stories to share that sort of brought back you know, the legacy and the person of our classmates. And so I think we left with a little bit more spring in our step in terms of let's make our lives and the lives of those we love count each day. So it was really inspiring and quite an amazing time.   Naviere Walkewicz  04:41 I love hearing that. I get to come back for my 25th next year and even though I'm, you know, here working in this capacity, there is something so special that's timeless. With graduates, when they come together, we really do just kind of pick up where we left off and so I'm looking forward to that as well.   Gen. Dana Born  04:57 We got together with our what we call "dooley squadron," but you know, with our classes that we were with for the first two years, and then also with the last two years, because we transitioned after our three-degree year, and there was one individual that was in my, like, all four years together. And so that was kind of fun as well, yes.   Naviere Walkewicz  05:18 What our listeners love to do is kind of get to know our speakers as well. So if we could travel back to maybe your childhood and early days before the Academy. We'd really like to get to know what Gen. Born was like back then, you know, where did you grow up? What were you like? What were you into? Maybe you can take us back.   Gen. Dana Born  05:36 That's going back aways because I entered the Air Force Academy in 1979. So it really is going back decades here. But I grew up in a small town in upstate New York called Penn Yan. And, you know, we maybe had two or three thousand people. It was a very small town. If you think of Norman Rockwell, that is kind of, you know, the the old world, maybe even American Graffiti. That is my hometown. Everybody knows everybody pretty much still to this day. And I graduated from high school, the same day that I flew out to start basic training the next day. I literally didn't get to stay for my whole high school graduation. Because on the East Coast, graduations tend to be late June and of course, that's when basic Cadet training begins. So I hopped on a commercial airplane for the very first time, the day I graduated from high school. I flew airplanes before I drove a car. But I flew with my flight instructor actually to the nearest airport and then flew commercially, for the first time in my life, to go start basic training. I'd never been west of Ohio, and of course, people think about Ohio as the Midwest. So it was really going into a brave new world for me, certainly.   Naviere Walkewicz  06:58 So, were you always someone very courageous looking at new things. I mean, you said you were flying before you got into a car. So that's a bit telling there. What are their characteristics? Would you say you had as a young girl?   Gen. Dana Born  07:11 Yeah. I think that's, I wouldn't have characterized it actually as courageous. But I was certainly enjoyed adventure and the outdoors. I mean, some of my favorite activities. My dad was the vice president of a local college. And we grew up on a lake. So you know, waterskiing sailing, you know, boating, I loved to run, I love to fly, I love to ski. So there was that adventurous spirit. And certainly, I think that was part of the selection to go to the service academy. But it was also my dad, being a college professional and administrator, he took me to a college fair at the University of Vermont, I still remember this. And my dad had been enlisted in the Coast Guard, and right after World War Two, but he taught me how to salute. And I was always just kind of enamored with that part of his life. And I saw a Coast Guard Academy booth at this fair. And I got really excited. I went back to my father who was at his booth for his college and I said, "Dad, I know where I want to go, I want to go to the United States Coast Guard Academy." And then, when I applied, they said, "Oh, you missed the application date for this year, you'll have to come next year." And I was not wanting to wait to go to college. Right? I was ready. And so they said, well, there's these other academies. And I went back and talk to my track and cross country coach, and he did some exploration for me. And he said, "What about the Air Force Academy?" And I said, "Where is that?" And they said, "Colorado," and I thought, okay, skiing, mountains, you know, running. And that really was, it was his kind of helping me search through, okay, if this isn't an option, you know, what are your other options? And it turned out to be serendipity, just a very good fit and very grateful to this day, you know, for his mentorship.   Naviere Walkewicz  09:07 Well, I was going to ask how the Air Force Academy came into the picture. And it was by chance from the US Coast Guard Academy timing being off.   Gen. Dana Born  09:16 It was meant to be, I think, and, you know, I've had fun, you know, with over the years certainly while I was the dean working closely with the leadership at the Coast Guard Academy, you know, just kind of puns you know, they've changed their application date, I think to be more aligned now, but it was it was funny in talking with them about that, but it worked out really for the better. Well, you're also aware I have a mixed family in terms of you know, having Marine Corps and Air Force and Navy and Coast Guard. So we're all really in the same profession.   Naviere Walkewicz  09:56 We went kind of back in the early childhood days, but you just about your family kind of having mixed roles in different services. What does that all look like?   Gen. Dana Born  10:05 Yeah, I actually just recalled, as you were asking that question, I thank you for digging deeper there, because I forgot to mention Army as well and certainly my brother in law was a West Point graduate.   Naviere Walkewicz  10:16 We did that for him.   Gen. Dana Born  10:19 So appreciate that. You know, it's interesting, because I did not other than my dad's Coast Guard service really did not have a lot of military in my family. And but when I met my now husband, who is a Naval Academy graduate, when we were assigned to the Pentagon, it opened up a whole like military side of the family, because he does have a brother that went to VMI, one that went to West Point, he went to the Naval Academy, his father was a WWII aviator, who retired from the Navy. And so I and my family was primarily all educators, right? So I must say that it was providence, right, to get to the dean of the faculty position where I think it was keeping both sides of the family happy the educators as well as blended military service. And then of course, we have two daughters who are serving now, and one of them is 2020, graduate from the Air Force Academy, whose IP instructor pilot in helicopters and our youngest, who's a Naval Academy graduate who is in the Marine Corps now and just heading over to serve in Okinawa for three years as a comm. strat. officer in the Marine Expeditionary Forces. So we are certainly in a family business of of military service.   Naviere Walkewicz  11:41 Ma'am, you just shared a little bit about your time at the Academy as dean, first female graduate to become dean and then you serve two terms. What was that like?   Gen. Dana Born  11:50 It's interesting, that you asked that question and, of your, I know your own background in working a lot of issues, particularly women in leadership issues in diversity, equity inclusion, I find it actually paradoxical to think of myself as kind of the, you know, the first female dean because it is a fact, I'm just really grateful that we have a currently serving dean who's also a female. And it's interesting, because we just want to fit in, right, and just be the dean. And yet, if we don't say female dean, then we're invisible. And so it really is paradoxical. Anytime you're a minority of having a an adjective that caveats or clarifies, you know, that your your role. So I recognize that, but I'm really just so thrilled that I had the opportunity, and again, through a lot of mentors, encouraging and supporting through that journey, because I think I like many others, particularly women, take ourselves out of the running, because we haven't seen somebody go into that kind of an authority position before that look like us or are like us. So it was really people telling me, you know, don't you think it's your duty, you know, to offer to serve in that capacity, you know, why take yourself out of the running, if the Air Force thinks you're the right person at the right time, and you're willing to, then it's your duty to put your name in. And, and that was really the thinking that drew me to apply. And I'm really glad to have had that opportunity, not just for one term, but for to, and to see that, you know, there's more behind me that are more, you know, diverse, that is really good for our Academy.   Naviere Walkewicz  13:36 I'm glad you brought that up, because I actually struggled in asking that question for the similar reasons of saying first female to do something and at the same time, having been walking in those paths, understanding that sometimes people need to see people who have walked in those shoes that look like them, etc. So I'm glad that you kind of talked about the importance of recognizing those things, even though at the same time we see ourselves as I'm the qualified person to be doing this. So I appreciate you showing that.   Gen. Dana Born  14:01 It's hard to do though, too, because, you know, if you think about the generation of the first several classes to go through the academy, it was really a token time. I mean, I think we had 8.4% women that came in in our class. And so we didn't want to be seen as anything other than fitting in. And so it is hard for us also. And I remember when General Desjardins and I were serving together as the comm and the dean, right the first time you had two females in those two roles. And we had to kind of get over that. We had many conversations to say, hey, if the current population is wanting to have conversations, you know about women in the military, we need to have those conversations. Those are, you know, part of what we bring and it was and we had to listen a lot, right, because there was so much we didn't know about how the experience is similar and we're different for the now cadet, right, while we were in those positions.   Naviere Walkewicz  15:03 And that was actually one of the questions I had, from your experiences as a cadet, the highs and lows. And then what did that look like for you in the role then if dean, how did that change your perspective? Or, you know, looking at how you improved things, or made a difference?   Gen. Dana Born  15:17 I'm gonna go back to the highs and low question because the high was clearly meeting some of the most amazing, talented, diverse people that I had been exposed to, if you think about coming out of this small town, to the cadet wing that was twice the size, much more diverse representing countries around the world. I was, I was so in awe of look at who I'm here with, I was also very scared because we all got that, you know, warning that look left look, right, one, one or two of you aren't going to be there, right, at graduation. So it was a little, a little bit of a fire, right to say I better stay giving it my best, but I really think that's a high. And to this day, that's and even as the dean, it was always a wow moment to look around and see the incredible people that we got to be in the kind of common cause with and gave me great hope always for the future, both while I was a cadet and as the dean and now serving, you know, with the Air Force Academy Foundation, it's really inspiring and elevating, and provides hope during times that, you know, can be very daunting. The low, I would just want to get that out of the way, right? The low is always hard to talk about. But I think one of my low points, but it didn't last long. Because I I really had a love of flying, and a love of the air, I lost my pilot qualification probably because I was not studying properly. And, you know, my flashlight under my covers trying to pass that "EE" test or something. And so I did not have the opportunity to fly upon graduation. And that was hard. Because one the culture, you know, we're so oriented towards, "What you're, you're not going to fly?" And I couldn't, it was just not an option for me. And so I really just had to pivot in terms of what are the other needs and ways that I might be able to serve. But that that was a hard time to do that. And it was actually right before commitment. And so people were asking, you know, are you still gonna stay? And I thought, "Well, why wouldn't I am sure the Air Force has other, you know, ways to serve." So, but that was that was kind of a low. And I think another I don't know is if it's a low, but it might be one that I look back on. I was intercollegiate for 12 seasons. And so I had a whole lot of depth of really athletics, and really close friendships because of that, and a lot of travel to places I've never traveled to. But I also then think I didn't get as much breadth of experience of because time was so precious and trying to keep up academically. You know, and I think as I look back, you know, I had participated in theater when I was in high school, but I didn't have time for you know, Blue Bards or anything outside of really athletics and some of the military work that we got to do and keep up with academics and, you know, try to do well there and in my major.   Naviere Walkewicz  18:50 So ma'am you mentioned something about the pivot you had to make and you know, some of the disappointment that came with that. How did you kind of get to that positive headspace when your plan changed so dramatically.   Gen. Dana Born  19:02 It's hard for me to go back and put myself in what did it there. But I can think of examples like right now what comes to mind for me is the iRobot or the I don't know what how you refer to it, but those, you know, round circular vacuums that if yes, if they get up against a wall, they know that they're there to clean the floor, and they just find a redirect and they keep going. And that's sort of what I think it's been for me, you know, when you kind of stay oriented on your purpose and what you are passionate about. It's easy to not give up but to find another way. And that happened to me when I was fortunate enough to be in a PhD program sponsored by the Air Force Academy in the Air Force to go to Penn State University and right after my second year, the Air Force was downsizing and trying to provide opportunity for people to not have a commitment to school and to be able to basically give up that commitment and not come into the Air Force. And I got that letter that said, "Hey, you can you know, we're sorry. But right now we have an option if you'd like to, you know, get out of the Air Force, you can." And I remember thinking like, you've invested in me to be here for this PhD program. And, you know, I'm hopeful that there's something with this I can do for my Air Force. And so no, I don't want to get out. And so it was kind of like that same iRobot response of I'm here to do this. And so I'm going to figure out a pivot to be able to stay and contribute in a way that might be valuable.   Naviere Walkewicz  20:44 That is a great analogy, ma'am. That's fantastic. Well, I know this is not new to you, ma'am. Because with you're hosting other podcasts on leadership, there's questions that you know, our listeners love to learn about, that you're very familiar with. So I'd like to start with one that you ask often about leaders being born versus made. And I know your thoughts on this, that they are both born and made. But I'm hoping you might be able to share a little bit more about what led you to that perspective.   Gen. Dana Born  21:12 I think it's through mentorship and wise counsel, in early days, actually, and magnified through the time at the Air Force Academy, that that character is paramount in terms of us being effective humans. And it's also not enough, because you want to be a person of strong character that also has leadership, qualities that help influence for good. And I remember, during my time, even as the dean when we were developing the character and leadership center, and talking about do we call it the in because it used to be the Center for Character Development? Or do we call it the Center for Leadership Development? And are they the same, and I was fascinated with those conversations, because we really got to a point where it is both and and we need to call out character and leadership. Because we can have great, or I won't say great, but we can have leadership where people are able to influence but maybe not for good. And we can have character, but have people of great character that aren't able to mobilize the influence. And so I have just been, I guess, embracing that character and leadership aspect of our mission, primarily, from the time at the Air Force Academy to present day research and investment in teaching and working with executives, graduate students, undergraduates and boards.   Naviere Walkewicz  22:50 Was it would you say at the Air Force Academy is when you knew yourself to be a leader? Or, when did you have the desire to lead?   Gen. Dana Born  22:59 Interestingly enough, I think about that back at my small town of Penn Yan, New York, and some of that, I have to attribute to the fact that we didn't have many people. I mean, my school had 1,000 people but bused in from 20, or 30 miles in every different direction. And so the because the town wasn't that big, so we had a chance. Matter of fact, I was like, I was Miss Flying Club, you know, for the parade. I was, you know, the head of women's athletics for my school, I got to be on Student Council and be a treasure for my class, and, you know, captain of the cross country team and the track team, it really did stretch me into places that I might not have sought out myself. But people kind of put me in those positions, and then helped me to learn through those positions. But I must say, most of my learning was when things didn't go so well, you know, how come you know, people aren't buying into this, you know, motto. And, you know, what is the dynamic that's happening? You know, we're, we're fractured as a team, you know, how can we fix this? And so it was really through some of those friction moments that I probably learned the most and really loved the opportunity have an input and an influence?   Naviere Walkewicz  24:19 Can you share some of those because I think some of our listeners are certainly in parts of their leadership journeys, where they're, they may be facing some of those, you know, friction moments or their early parts of their leadership lessons. You know, what were some of the early lessons that you took on that you might share with them if they experience something like that?   Gen. Dana Born  24:38 I think what came to mind for me, more recent examples, clearly, because they're still pretty fresh. But what came to me when you were talking about maybe early years, was I think we're I may be let myself downs nd we're I didn't feel as though I did well enough to be considered a leader. Right? You have to, you know, it's the hero's journey. And I think that I've learned over the years that you don't need to be perfect as a leader. Quite the contrary, right people can relate and, and really be on their own development journey more when we are human and imperfect. And that took me a long time to really embrace because there is that pressure, right, that we feel like we have to be perfect. And we have to know so much, and do so well. And I think that that's, that's not people know that humans aren't perfect, right? So if you're coming across perfect, right? People look for the chinks in the armor. And the higher you are, the higher you fall. So I think that I had that experience at the Air Force Academy, I shared recently in a Sabre Society, talk that, you know, I had been a commander during 9/11, at Bolling, Air Force Base. And it really, I was so proud of how my unit did, and the people that were recognized for just excellence, and we were prepared, and we were responsive. And it was really exciting. And I chose to stay in and ended up at the Air Force Academy as a department chair. And I brought my same self and my same, you know, you know, command energy and I failed miserably in the first, you know, several months, we were going through the sexual assault and sexual harassment crisis, and I was being fairly directive, which worked well with the population I was leading in Washington, DC during 9/11 did not work as well, when you have a very small but mature, you know, mostly PhDs, professional faculty, that I needed to listen to more and not be directive, and it took not long, you know, for what we call it, the Air Force Academy, the blanket party for quite respectable people to come in and say, ma'am, this isn't working and to swallow that humility pill, and, and realize, okay, we need to, I need to adapt here, not lose myself, but adapt to this new environment and situation,   Naviere Walkewicz  27:11 Maybe you can share some of the best attributes that you've you've come across in leaders, because, you know, everyone leading from the authentic selves, brings it forward in their own ways. But what are some of the ones that you see time and true, and again, that are really spoken with you as best attributes?   Gen. Dana Born  27:27 I think what I have grown to really value is people who probably listen well, and who are curious, and, and I've, I've, I've also found people who see the individual in each person, like, what makes Naviere tick, what is it that's important to you personally, and professionally? You know, what are the ways that you are at your best, and that I think is, is really helpful. I also, I don't know why it just came to me, but I'm kind of led to share it is, I heard some great advice. When I was a younger officer, and for where people were not performing to expectations, instead of blaming the individual or feeling as though you know, they're no good, we need to their poor performer label and move them on. It's really better when we asked three questions, when somebody's not meeting, a standard, you know, have I been as a person, you know, leading? Have I been clear in the expectations? And if I have, then the next question is, have I prepared them? Or given them the right training? Or, you know, opportunity to be good at what I'm asking them to do? And then the third is, if the answer to the first two is I have, I did, then what else is happening in their lives that for whatever reason, they're not meeting, you know, the expectations or standards. And if there's nothing there, then you start the performance plan. But, that was, I think, when people are like giving you space to learn and grow and taking kind of a co collaborative ownership of performance. I've, I've, I've thrived in those situations more than and I hope people in my leadership have thrived in those situations more as well, because it is more of a approach that is a shared approach to getting the mission accomplished and taking care of people.   Naviere Walkewicz  29:38 That's an amazing nugget that you shared. I mean, I'm just I can think back throughout my career and times when I probably should have leveraged something like that, and I might have been more effective. Thinking about what pieces have I not maybe done as well or have I done those things, as you said, kind of do a reflective piece from a leadership perspective, to be able then to collaborate in a you know, a better way forward. That's awesome, ma'am. Thank you.   Gen. Dana Born  30:02 Yeah, I had a couple of terrible times of moral discernment, I would say, in decision making when those situations came up, particularly when, you know, you're having to make a decision where somebody's going to be incarcerated. And, you know, I, I had one of those situations where, you know, I was actually eight months pregnant, and the individual was a failure to show up for he was an honor guardsman failure to show for several funerals. And his, his wife was eight months pregnant. And here I was sitting, as you know, the summary court official having to decide if I'm going to throw, you know, him in a situation where he's absent from his family, and, you know, and what kind of financial, leeway will I have in order to help the family but still hold him accountable. And that was very, very difficult because of my own, you know, situation and empathy. But at the same time, it hit me during that decision that there are a lot of airmen who are not there for the birth of their kids or for special events and are deployed in harm's way. And they're doing the mission, not A.W.O.L.. And so I ultimately decided to, you know, incarcerate him for his failure to go and being A.W.O.L. and also try to protect with some leniency, his family situation.   Naviere Walkewicz  31:39 Leading with compassion, but always being accountable, ma'am, that's, it's tough. And I think, you know, we have many listeners that find themselves in those situations. And I've often been asked, you know, I'm a mom, how can I advance my career professionally, I have to do all these other things as well. And so maybe a question that I might tie to that a little bit. You know, how do you how did you balance, that compassion side of leadership and still be able to make some those difficult decisions in the moment? And you know, what would you share with others and how they might do that and think through things when it maybe feels a little bit too hard or too daunting?   Gen. Dana Born  32:15 It is very hard and is daunting. And you use the term balance, and I, I love the word balance. You know, I'm a middle child, and I'm a Libran. You know, I like balanced, but I have found balance to be very difficult. There's a term called. "balance is bunk." And I like that because it's anytime I feel like I've had anything in balance, it's about ready to go on tilt. And so I try to change out the word balance with the word integrate, that works better for me or Harmonize How do I bring together those things and the Airforce in the time that I was working at the in the Chief of Staff's personnel office came up with a motto, "People First in Mission Always," and it can be, "Mission First." And people always, but it's sort of like the chicken and the egg, they both actually go together. And they're very important. And so I think there's that keeping the both and in the integration of that is what helped me in some of those tough decisions. I mean, I remember having to take a security clearance away from a lieutenant colonel, for all the right reasons, but trying, you know, that person then was going to lose their position in the Air Force, because it required a security clearance. And, and it wasn't a situation that I put that person in, right, they put themselves in that position, but what I didn't want to do was deliver the news in a way that then the individual would feel like they have nothing left right to or would ultimately, you know, take their life, right, that always was present to say, uh, don't want this person to go away with anything other than, you know, your life is not over. But you know, this is a very serious trajectory that you have to decide how you're going to go forward from this point. And that was hard, very hard, but it's both people and mission that I think we have to embrace in the way that we carry on what we're responsible for, for our nation.   Naviere Walkewicz  34:25 Well, I think about you know, some of those stories that you shared and some of the experiences you had, I mean, you probably had to go home and, and your your network at home, your family was there with you through all of the journey. How has your family influenced you as a leader and maybe what role do they play in that?   Gen. Dana Born  34:40 I talked a lot with my family, like the time around the dinner table was really sort of transparency. And that bothered my children because I started to hear things back that I thought they shouldn't have to be hearing some of this, and so I also kind of drew inward and decided that that I, "Who can I talk with," right, because I don't want to bring work home, so to speak, that weighs down the family. I want to focus on them. And so I went through a period where I suffered in silence. And I think many leaders and many people, as particularly when you have, you know, security issues that you can't talk about certain things with others. I think we need to find a way and I ultimately did find someone that I could go to and say, I need some advice. And that was monumental, because it helped me understand that I had not been doing that with with great mentors. And I thought about it. And it shocked me that I was not asking for advice. And I thought, How do I feel like if Naviere or someone comes to me and ask for advice, I feel like, wow, if they think I have, yeah, exactly. They're including me, I have something to offer. They care about what I have to say. And so I really had an epiphany that said, I need to do that more. And I started to reach out. And in one case, I reached out to the Chief of Staff of the Air Force, you know, having talked with the superintendent first. And it was phenomenal. Because I had such a different perspective on something I was ruminating over. And I thought Why did I wait so long?   Naviere Walkewicz  36:26 What advice would you give to some that are suffering in silence, and maybe can't see that next step? And to doing that what actually helped you to go seek help and ask for help or ask for guidance and mentorship?   Gen. Dana Born  36:39 I think recognizing, well, in some cases, vulnerability is a strength. And, you know, Brene Brown, who I really do love her work. And her, her, her YouTube or, you know, Netflix, a lot of great science and also practice, but she said, What makes you vulnerable, makes you beautiful. And I think that that is part of it is to recognize that, you know, we're all vulnerable, or we're all broken in maybe different places, right to quote some history. And so I think it connects us and builds trust when we are willing to be vulnerable. And I think it takes courage as well, to let ourselves be seen for all, you know, we have a saying that's warts and all. And, you know, to let ourselves be really fully seen,   Naviere Walkewicz  37:33 That resonates with so many people. I think a lot of times people when they're listening to podcasts, and they're, they're just trying to learn and get better in their professional career in their personal lives. Just a can take one little thing that someone really resonates with. And I think you sharing that bit about being reflective and not necessarily suffering in silence, but but looking for helping others I think is going to be really powerful for some. So thank you for sharing some of that.   Gen. Dana Born  37:56 I think the key takeaway is, is just building on what we just talked about, like if I had a foot-stomper, right from our Air Force Academy days, that's like, if you're starting to fall asleep, right? I use that at Harvard. And I'm like, "Does anybody know what foot stamper actually means?" It means, you know, this, is it pay attention. And I'm, I'm really motivated by the John F. Kennedy quote, "Leadership, well, learning and leadership are indispensable from each other." I think that if I were to say there's two really important takeaways, those for me have been, be curious, be more curious. And that is just really asking a lot of questions. Leaning into not judgment, but leaning into really digging into and trying to understand. And that gets us, I think, in a whole different place. That is a good place. And so I haven't always done that. Well, curiosity is like a growth mindset. And I think that is something that I really would recommend to our listeners, be more curious. And I think that's being helped by Chat GPT and Generative AI because it's all about the questions you ask. And, and then it kind of gets at what answers you get. And I think that's maybe training us to be, you know, more curious and careful in how we're asking and being curious. The other is courage. And you brought this up earlier, but I think courage, you know, the root word of courage is heart. And I think leading with your heart and leading with, like the recognition that things that are hard, make your heart rate go up. Courage, you know, our heart rate goes up when we're in danger physically, morally, psychologically. And I think leaning into that to where our heart rate goes up a little bit is how we learn and grow and how we basically can make positive change. So, those two things together, curiosity and courage, under the umbrella of learning and leading go, you know, they're indispensable to each other is the takeaway. I thought you might ask me like, you talked about purpose earlier. What is your purpose? What is it that gets you out of bed in the morning? And what is it that keeps you going through the tough times? And what is it at the end of your, you know, last breath that will have been your dash in your life, your purpose, your why, and mine actually is a simple phrase to myself. I use the term, "kick chocks", and "kick chocks" is, you know, the bricks in front of the wheel of the airplane, and when you're ready to go, you gotta get, gotta get rid of them, or you can't take off. But sometimes you have to kind of have the chocks there, to pause and to, you know, refuel and to do things. So kick chocks, to me has sort of been a way that I am channeled. Some call it your true north, or your Polaris, your compass, and it speaks to me because I can, I can go, go, go, go and never put chocks in front. I also can keep chocks in front of myself and, and limit myself and, and I'm passionate about what is it that somebody needs to have a break? You know? And when is it when somebody has got something in the way or team or organization that's holding them back? And how do I help identify that and kick chocks with them so we can take off. So, it speaks to me. But yeah, the purpose I think, purpose and passion and the individualization of that, so because everybody is so different comes from our life stories, and I love learning about people's purpose.   Naviere Walkewicz  41:51 General born, might you share with us, you know, maybe what you're reading, watching or listening to that's helped you develop your leadership skills.   Gen. Dana Born  41:59 I love to listen to everything. I mean, I am a listener, you know, we all know how we we learn best, I'm really auditory. So podcasts I pick up, I really do a lot with the Council on Foreign Relations. I do listen also to a lot of leadership podcasts, because I just find the whole topic of leadership fascinating for so many different approaches to what we think we're all talking about the same, it just really is expansive of my understanding. And I also now there are so many ways that you can have, you know, auditory books, and or listen to even academic journal articles. So usually, it's a treadmill thing to listen. And I just, I think that is my approach. I also I do like to read, and I think my favorite leadership book is going to shock you. But it's it's sort of got a nautical theme, I think, not an Air Force theme, but its endurance about Shackleton and Antarctica. And there's so many leadership lessons in that book, endurance is one of my favorites. And another one of my favorites is and they're both kind of historical, is Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, written in 1946. I've read that so many times, and he wrote it in nine days, but it's because he wrote it while he was a prisoner in the Nazi prison camp. And then he rewrote it after it was burned. And he was liberated. And it's just an amazing, timeless evergreen read about life and about leadership, about purpose about meaning. And then most recently, for a current one is True North, and that is emerging leaders by Bill George and Zack Clayton. And I just think that that is a great pedagogy of thinking about ourselves. Put our own oxygen mask on first so that we can better care for the mission and the people that are entrusted to us and the change we want to see in the world. So, that's a current reader TrueNorth for emerging leaders.   Naviere Walkewicz  44:24 It's been amazing. Thank you so much for taking the time, ma'am. It's been a pleasure and an honor.   Gen. Dana Born  44:28 It's a pleasure and an honor. And I thank all our listeners for listening in and we wish you well.   KEYWORDS Air Force Academy, leadership, people, Air Force, talk, family, dean, work, leader, serve, flew, cadet, Academy, Coast Guard Academy, recognized, years, terms, leading, long, podcasts       The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation      

The Long Blue Leadership team was in attendance at the 2024 National Character and Leadership Symposium and interviewed several NCLS speakers. ----more---- We set up our studio on site and invited several of the speakers to join us to discuss the what and why behind their messages. Two of the lead cadet organizers of the NCLS event and the 2024 cadet class president visited with us to share why they are so heavily involved and what they took away from the event. And we invited the cadet hosts of the Polaris Hall Podcast to share our studio space for their interviews with NCLS speakers, one of which, they shared with us. In this special edition of Long Blue Leadership, producer, Ted Robertson's, conversations with comedian Jose Sarduy, class of '99; NCLS organizers cadet 1st class Rachel Parillo and cadet 2nd class Weiss Yuan; and 2024 class president, cadet 1st class, Adedapo Adeboyejo. Also joining us, astronaut Dr. Kjell Lindgren, class of '95; author and entrepreneur Delovell Earls, class of 2015. Finally, making guest appearances for their interview with NCLS speaker, Olympic gold medal swimmer, Missy Franklin Johnson, Polaris Hall Podcast hosts, cadet 1st class Maya Mandyam and cadet 2nd class Margaret Meehan, hosts of the Polaris Hall Podcast. SEE THE NCLS SPEAKER VIDEOS HERE NCLS 2024 IN REVIEW NCLS 2024 PHOTO GALLERY DOWNLOAD THE NCLS 2024 PROGRAM GET THE POLARIS HALL PODCAST HERE SPECIAL THANKS Our very special thanks to C1C Maya Mandyam and C2C Margaret Meehan, hosts of the Polaris Hall Podcast, for their contribution of excerpts from their excellent interview with Olympic Gold Medalist, Missy Franklin-Johnson.       ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership is a production of the Long Blue Line Podcast Network, drops every two weeks on Tuesdays, and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!          PHOTO GALLERY NCLS 2024 Top to Bottom:  Jose Sarduy  |  C1C Rachel Parillo, C1C Adedapo Adeboyejo and C2C Weiss Yuan   Dr. Kjell Lindgren  |   DeLovell Earls   Missy Franklin-Johnson, C1C Maya Mandyam and C2C Margaret Meehan         The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation    

Does being bold make a good leader or does a good leader have to be bold? Karl Falk '98, is leader who knows bold both ways.  ----more---- SUMMARY But there is much more to leadership than boldness. Join Karl and Long Blue Leadership host, Naviere Walkewicz '99, for a conversation about boldness, the nuanced human spirit and the path to success as a leader.  In this episode, Karl Falk, founder and CEO of Botdoc, shares his journey from the Air Force Academy to entrepreneurship. He discusses the challenges of leading peers and the lessons he learned from playing football. Karl also talks about his transition out of the Air Force and the founding of Botdoc, a tech startup that provides secure data transfer solutions. He emphasizes the importance of taking one step at a time and finding solutions to challenges. Karl encourages listeners to believe that there is always a way to overcome obstacles.   OUR PICKS FOR QUOTES "Probably the hardest thing to do is is is lead your peers, not yell at your peers like some people think that's leadership that's needed sometimes but actually leading your peers and you know, trying to peer into their soul and get them to do something greater and, and that was a lot of fun." "I learned that I didn't want that to happen again. In fact, I, the the army game this year, when Air Force came over to sing, we were on that we were on that side of the stadium, and I took a picture of it. And I sent it to my son I said, remember this? Because when that season, that's what that's what motivated me. That next season was I didn't want that to happen again." "I think I learned more about leadership and who I was. And honestly, probably the hardest thing to do, especially when you're that age is, is lead your peers, not yell at your peers, like some people think that's leadership in the locker room, but that's needed sometimes, but actually leading your peers and you know, trying to peer into their soul and get them to, to do something greater and, and that was a lot of fun." - Karl Falk, Founder '98 and CEO, Botdoc   SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK  |  LINKEDIN  |  TWITTER  | 

General Pringle discusses her experiences as a cadet, including unique firsts. and she highlights the challenges she faced in her career and the lessons she learned. ----more---- SUMMARY Retired Major General Heather Pringle '91 shares her journey from the Air Force Academy to commanding the Air Force Research Laboratory. She emphasizes the importance of teamwork and being the best wingman. General Pringle discusses her experiences as a cadet, including unique firsts. She highlights the challenges she faced in her career and the lessons she learned. General Pringle also provides advice for other leaders, emphasizing the value of honesty and feedback. She encourages listeners to pursue their dreams and make a difference in the world.   OUR QUOTE PICKS "The mission gets done 100 times better if the whole team is working in concert it the success or the failure of the mission isn't on one person's shoulders. It never is on one person's shoulders." "Everyone has a story. And so if someone's a supervisor out there, I would say job number one is to listen and know your team, listen to their stories." "I would just say, don't think about me, you know, just go for it. And if you need help, call me. So that's it, that I just said, go for it. There's nothing should be stopping you."   SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK  |  LINKEDIN  |  TWITTER  |  EMAIL   CHAPTERS 00:00:  Introduction and Teamwork 01:06:  General Pringle's Journey 03:22:  Cadet Life and Experiences 04:22:  Unique Firsts and Exchanges 05:41:  Impressions of Today's Cadets 06:08:  Indoctrination Day and Early Memories 07:30:  Involvement in Clubs and Groups 08:19:  Challenges and Lessons Learned 09:39:  Transition to Air Force Research Laboratory 12:32:  Commanding Air Force Research Laboratory 14:46:  Transition to Civilian Sector and Nonprofit Work 19:05:  Advice for Supervisors and Taking Care of Your Team 20:30:  Overcoming Challenges and Embracing Failure 23:49:  Lessons from Mentors and Leaders 24:46:  Being the Best Wingman and Team Player 25:12:  Commanding Air Force Research Laboratory 27:33:  Transition to Civilian Sector and Nonprofit Work 30:25:  Lessons Learned and Being True to Yourself 34:36:  Final Thoughts and Encouragement   TAKEAWAYS FOR LEADERS AND ASPIRING LEADERS - The importance of teamwork and being a good wingman in achieving mission success. No one person carries the burden alone. - As a leader, it's important to listen to your team's stories to better understand and support them. Everyone comes from a unique background. - Facing challenges and setbacks are an opportunity to learn and grow. Don't get discouraged by failures or non-selections - keep pursuing new opportunities. - It's important to be honest with yourself and others for personal and professional development. Be open to feedback to improve. - Focus on serving others through your work and giving back to your community through service and leadership. - Believe in yourself and pursue your dreams and passions. With perseverance, you are capable of more than you realize.  - The success or failure of a mission is not on one person's shoulders; it requires a whole team working together.  - Embrace challenges and failures as opportunities for growth and learning.  - Be true to yourself and embrace your unique story and background.  - Take care of your team and listen to their stories; everyone has a unique perspective and contribution to make.  - Don't be afraid to ask for help and seek feedback to improve as a leader.   BIO Major General (Ret.) Heather Pringle '91 Gen. Pringle retired as Commander of the Air Force Research Laboratory, Air Force Materiel Command, Dayton, Ohio, and Technology Executive Officer, supporting both the United States Air Force and United States Space Force. She led a $2.5 billion science, technology and innovation enterprise in accelerating the discovery and development of solutions for Airmen and Guardians. She was responsible for formulating a comprehensive technology portfolio that anticipates future warfighter needs, while promoting risk-taking and problem solving across her 6,000-member government workforce. She accelerated the delivery of cross-domain solutions through partnerships with industry, academia, and international allies, and executed an additional $2.3 billion in externally funded research and development. Through the laboratory's technology and functional directorates, AFWERX and the 711th Human Performance Wing, her team produced a deep technical and medical bench, pushed the boundaries of modern technology and improved the science for tomorrow. Prior to her last assignment, Maj. Gen. Pringle served as the Director of Strategic Plans, Deputy Chief of Staff for Plans and Programs, Headquarters U.S. Air Force, the Pentagon, Arlington, Virginia. - Copy and image credit:  www.af.mil     ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!          FULL TRANSCRIPT   SPEAKERS Our Host is Naviere Walkewicz '99 | Our Guest is Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Heather Pringle '91   Major Gen. (Ret.) Heather Pringle '91  00:09 The mission gets done 100 times better if the whole team is working in concert. The success or the failure of the mission isn't on one person's shoulders. It never is on one person's shoulders. Just like being a cadet isn't just on the cadet's shoulders. There's a whole team of folks out there who, if we are the best wingman that we can be, then the mission will succeed.   Naviere Walkewicz  01:00 My guest today is retired Major General Heather Pringle, a 1991 graduate of the Air Force Academy. General Pringle's journey from in-processing day to her current role in the nonprofit sector spans 32 years. Along the way, she served in education, warfighter support, research, innovation and global leadership roles culminating in the command of the Air Force Research Laboratory, Air Force Materiel Command. There is a unique first from her days as a fourth degree that stands out. And it makes me wonder how that affected the trajectory of your Air Force career. We'll talk about that with the general and much more. General Pringle, thank you for being here today.   Gen. Heather Pringle  01:36 Thanks for having me, Naviere. And please, call me Heather.   Naviere Walkewicz  01:39 So Heather, let's kind of go back a little bit, you know, to some early days. Back to the beginning. Let's talk about what you were like as a kid where you grew up, about your family?   Gen. Heather Pringle  01:50 Well, I grew up in a small town in Idaho. And I guess before we really dig in, I do want to say, thanks so much for having me here. It's yes, it's an honor to be able to talk to your audience and share some stories. And if there's any way I can be of help, that's what I'm all about.   Naviere Walkewicz  We love that. Thank you.   Gen. Heather Pringle  So, growing up in small town in Idaho, it's well known for the place where Evil Knievel jumped the Snake River Canyon, but he did not land on the other side, or the part of the canyon where I grew up. But the excitement surrounding it really enthralled me. And you asked what I was like growing up, and I love to challenge. I'd love to learn new things. And maybe that was a little difficult on my parents. But boy, they did a such a great job of instilling values in me and always doing my best and working hard and trying to make a difference for others.   Naviere Walkewicz  You grew up, you moved to Idaho.   Gen. Heather Pringle  I'm the oldest of three and my sister served in the Air Force as a nurse and my younger brother, also known as “Zoom”, also served in the Air Force as well. He was a pilot, and yes, so he was a pilot. There you go.   Naviere Walkewicz  03:11 That's awesome. And another long blue line graduate of the Air Force Academy.   Gen. Heather Pringle  03:15 Absolutely. He was class of 1996.   Naviere Walkewicz  03:18 Is that something? Did you know you wanted to go to the academy? How did that come about?   Gen. Heather Pringle  03:22 My aunt and uncle live on a ranch in Wyoming. And that's where I spent my summers. So that part about hard work and doing chores and you know, dawn to dusk type stuff. They taught me a lot about working to make a contribution. And my aunt was a high school teacher. And as part of her curriculum, she went on a trip to Annapolis. And she came back and she said if she had her life to do over again, she would go to a service academy. That was the first I'd ever heard of a service academy. I'm so grateful to my aunt and uncle. And I did my own research and found out about the Air Force Academy in Colorado. And it had an exchange with France…   Naviere Walkewicz  Okay.   Gen. Heather Pringle  …which was really fun. That intrigued me as well. So, I just worked hard and did my best and I got lucky.   Naviere Walkewicz  So did you get to go on an exchange?   Gen. Heather Pringle  While I was a cadet?   Naviere Walkewicz  Wow.   Gen. Heather Pringle  Yes, I did. And I used to joke that it was my favorite semester at the Academy. But there were a lot of great semesters out the Academy, but France was a unique one that is so unique. Yeah, we do. My brother and I have a unique distinction that we're the only brother sister at least couple years ago that was true. The only brothers sister combo that went to the French exchange. Naviere Walkewicz  Oh my goodness. That's cool.   Gen. Heather Pringle  It is kind of cool. But I'm sure today's cadets have already surpassed that milestone and many more.   Naviere Walkewicz  05:02 The level of talent coming in and just how smart they are. I don't know that I would have made it in today's…, for sure where I was, you know, back, you know, in '95.   Gen. Heather Pringle  05:13 I completely agree. It's mind blowing. And I'm just so impressed by the cadet population and their talent and their selfless drive. It's amazing. And I'm very honored. They make me look better than I am. And they're, just fantastic. And the future is really bright. And we're in great hands.   Naviere Walkewicz  05:39 I think that's true. They make they make us look good, because really they represent the long blue line from you know, from years before and as we move forward. So, talk about that a little bit more the cadet life. I know you graduated from five were you always in Vandy? What was Cadet life like for you?   Gen. Heather Pringle  05:55 So Cadet life was, oh, I don't even know how to describe it. But let's see, I started we're…   Naviere Walkewicz  06:03 You're not military at all, like no exposure. So that was it. You literally showed up? Let's talk about just ID (induction day) what was that? Like? Let's start there, indoctrination day.   Gen. Heather Pringle  06:10 Okay, I have a couple of memories. So, the first one is I was on the plane, and my parents shipped me from Idaho to Colorado Springs. And I'm sitting next to somebody on the plane who has this little gold book in front of him. And I'm looking and I said, “Well, hi. I'm Heather.” And it turns out the individual was going to the Academy and had this book. He said, “Well, we have to memorize quotes.” And so that was the first part and then the bus ride from the airport to at the time, that was the Bring Me Men” ramp. It was dreary, it was raining. It was a rare rainy day here in Colorado. And so, you know, the ambiance started to sink in. And the weight of what I was about to enter started hitting me and I started getting worried. And could I cut it? Was I good enough? And all I could do was try. And the other funny memory that I have new here is they take you around on indoctrination day and you get measured for boots, you get measured for uniforms, etc. And they cut your hair.   Naviere Walkewicz  07:27 Yes. I remember that vividly.   Gen. Heather Pringle  07:28 Yes, and I had my hair cut before I went because I was going to be as prepared as I could. And immediately after getting my hair cut, they hand you the little placard to hold it under your chin and they were going to take your military identification photo. And I had the biggest grin because I was just proud and happy to be a part of the cadet corps and loving life. And then immediately after that, an upperclassman came around and definitely trained the smile right out of me. It was the last one for a little bit.   Naviere Walkewicz  08:02 Oh my goodness. So that was definitely a memory for sure. Let's talk a little bit more about while you're at the Academy. I know you, going before the Academy, you dabbled in different things and challenges. What were some of the experiences that you got involved with, or maybe clubs or groups that you can get involved as well while you were at the Academy?   Gen. Heather Pringle  08:19 Oh, that was, that was so fun. And the clubs really helped build that feeling of connection and camaraderie and family in addition to your squadron, right? I was a walk-on the track team. I was a hurdler.   Naviere Walkewicz  Wow.   Gen. Heather Pringle  Not great. I'm really, really not great. I was definitely the walk-on. But there's something for everyone. And that's, that's the goodness of it. And it just was really great. And I'm still friends with some of my track colleagues. And I'm really lucky to make some great friends during that time. I thought I'd mentioned as well, it wasn't all roses, as you can imagine. And in high school, I really liked physics. And I thought, you know, maybe I'll do physics. And I did not do well on the test that I had. So, I pretty quickly dropped physics as a major. And that's a tiny little regret that I have. Human Factors, which is no regret whatsoever. I loved it. And I loved the opportunity to combine technology and the human side of it. And it's it really worked out very, very well. At the time though I was a little disappointed that I didn't quite cut it but that's one of the thoughts that I had might be of interest is don't give up on your dreams when you're going through the Academy. And I'll say that even when one door closes a window opens and you're right, Human Factors, was the best thing ever. I loved it, I pursued it as a scientist and met many great people. And I leave the physics to the really, really talented people, which is there are so many out there.   Naviere Walkewicz  10:14 Well, that really speaks volumes, because so many listeners I think are at, you know, different points when you come to a crossroad. And you kind of wonder which way do I go. So, I think that's a really great story that you shared there. Because sometimes the path that you're not even seeing is the one that you should be going on. And that's kind of how you, you approached it. So, at the Academy, were there any particular leaders that really spoke to you and shaped you in a way that you knew was going to kind of make a difference in your career after the academy?   Gen. Heather Pringle  10:43 You look to so many around you. I leaned on so many people from my roommates along the way to faculty. I was really drawn to the academic side. And I had a lot of faculty that I looked up to, and they encouraged me. My academic advisor, for example, made a friendly bet with me once that I should get a particular grade point average. And, you know me, I love a challenge. So, I didn't just meet the challenge, but you know, that's a little, that's my personality. Unfortunately, yes, well, it can get in the way sometimes, too, but, um, you know, and then my AOCs. I still have my Cadet coin from 5th Squadron from 1991. I just can't believe how many people are dedicated to helping cadets succeed across the weighing across the base. I mean, we can't forget all those folks that are keeping the dorms warm, and ensuring that, you know, all the grounds are kept up to speed. And I, if I could say thank you to all of them for the lack of thank you's that I said at the time, I would love to do so now.   Naviere Walkewicz  12:14 So, I did want to touch on this unique first that your class experienced. So, you know, your class was amongst the first cadets to receive desktop computers. Let's talk a little bit about that. Because, you know, I can think a lot of firsts that cadets have, but this was game changer for the Academy. How did that kind of, what did that look like for you, and did it, you know, shape anything for what you wanted to do in the future?   Gen. Heather Pringle  12:38 The freshmen had computers and the sophomores, but not the juniors and not the seniors. Interesting, very fascinating tool differential. So, I do remember getting the computer during basic training and trying to figure out how to stick the floppy in to boot up the computer and use it right. And we also had an intranet at the time. And I would say that our class got very, very good at coordinating spirit missions using our computers, and the juniors and seniors were none the wiser. And so, we would say, you know, we had to be pretty good about doing that. But we could never pull the wool over the eyes of our sophomores and they were always right there to get us. But I even remember a couple of upperclassmen requesting services, for example, in terms of entering papers into the computer so that they would have a document because I had it and they didn't, rather than handwriting or typing right on a typewriter.   Naviere Walkewicz  13:47 So, just share, do you have a particular spirit mission that still stands out into your mind that you remember?   Gen. Heather Pringle  13:54 Oh, I don't even know if I should get into those.   Naviere Walkewicz  13:58 Fair enough? I think we all have those. Those spirit missions are li those just stay with us.   Gen. Heather Pringle  14:03 Yeah. Let's just say, you know, I really bonded with my classmates. Yeah. And I'm really grateful for having those friends over the years as well. So yeah, there. We, I'm sure, we weren't the best, or the worst. But yeah, we made our mark.   Naviere Walkewicz  14:22 I think of all, every class, I think, feels like they either had the toughest or they had the best spirit mission.   Gen. Heather Pringle  14:29 So, you know, yeah, we're probably right in the middle, right in the middle.   Naviere Walkewicz  14:33 Well, maybe we can shift a little bit to your career. But before we do, for those listeners that are thinking about the Air Force Academy or kind of, you know, lessons that you learn, if you can go back and talk to Cadet Heather, you know, what would you say to her?   Gen. Heather Pringle  14:46 Oh, I would say just keep going for it and enjoy it because it's over too quickly. And I think I didn't really realize how many people were there to help me and I don't think I asked for help enough when I needed it. So, I would say that there are people that want you to succeed. And they're there to help cadets succeed. So that would be my message.   Naviere Walkewicz  15:16 Let's talk about this 32 years of amazing leadership in the in the Air Force, and I know that you're very modest.   Gen. Heather Pringle  15:24 (It) spans two centuries. So, I think it's not all that remarkable. And I have to say, you know, even given that the long blue line, there are so many leaders to look up to, like Heather Wilson, David Ogilvy and Mark Welsh, so many great leaders to look up to. It's very humbling just to be a part of it, and to help someone else make it better and follow in their great footsteps.   Naviere Walkewicz  15:55 Yes, well, I think that's part of what makes us so special is because I think every, you know, person that shares their experiences when it comes to their, like leadership lessons, or just some of the trials, tribulations, successes, someone that's listening on the other end can pick something from that and say, like, that really, that really spoke to me. So, you know, we'll talk about your career. Maybe you can just share just off the bat, you know, you're a mom?   Gen. Heather Pringle  16:19 I am a wife…   Naviere Walkewicz  16:20 You are also you know, you did 32 years and leadership positions. What's that like, juggling all of that? How did you do that?   Gen. Heather Pringle  16:27 I don't know that I did it very well. You know, you just do the best you can. But first is having a great husband who supported me along the way and made sure that the kids were fed. And yeah, I'll say they had dirt on their faces, or, you know, my daughter dressed in mismatched, you know, whatever. But it was just, it was just a great life. And I'm really grateful that he was helping me through the ups and the downs. It's hard to be a mom and to be active duty, and it gets harder over time. It's especially hard when they're little juggling. And you kind of feel like, wow, I'm failing at being a mom, I'm failing at being an officer, and how do you manage both? And I would just say, give yourself a break, and be the best you that you can be. I once tried to be something or meet a standard that I thought was the right thing to do. But once I decided, you know what, I'm Heather, I'm from Idaho, and not many of us are, and I'm a mom, and I just kind of owned that as part of my leadership. I was happier. And I don't know if I did better, but I was able to go further because of it. And I was much more comfortable in my skin. And, you know, you take the highs and the lows, and you just keep going.   Naviere Walkewicz  18:10 No, that's wonderful. I think there's young officers that feel that pressure at both moms and dads. And so I think that's, it's nice to hear those who have done so well to admit, you know, hey, it's tough at times, and sometimes you gotta lean on your network, and your network can be a lot of different things. So thank you for sharing that.   Gen. Heather Pringle  18:28 Yeah, well, you, you might end up going to work once in a while was spit-up on your shoulder, or, you know, kind of being a little, you know, or late to a soccer game. And you don't have to, I guess that's what I'm really saying, is you don't have to be perfect. Across the board. Just be you.   Naviere Walkewicz  18:49 I think that's a great nugget for those that are listening that maybe are feeling some of those pressures. What advice might you give to supervisors that maybe have some, some members in their, on their teams that you might say, maybe consider giving grace? Or what does that look like to you that you might share?   Gen. Heather Pringle  19:06 Well, this is something that I learned from General Mark Walsh, and he said, everyone has a story. And so, if someone's a supervisor out there, I would say job number one is to listen and know your team, listen to their stories. And every individual in the military is serving and comes from all these unique, amazing backgrounds. And they've conquered their own challenges, whether it's past or present. And so, when supervisors understand that, then they can better meet the individual in the middle. Of course, the mission has to get done and you want it to be done. Well, national security is an imperative and we're depending on our uniformed members, so I'm not worried about our military letting us down. I just want to make sure that we're living up to what our military needs. And so, listen, learn, and see if we can meet in the middle.   Naviere Walkewicz  20:12 I mean, it goes back to taking care of your people. And then I think that you just said, you couldn't have said that any better.   Naviere Walkewicz  20:20 Maybe you can share some of the challenges that you might have experienced. You talked about, you know, being a mom and being a leader. Talk about just in leadership in general. What was maybe one of the most challenging things you've experienced? And how did you overcome that?   Gen. Heather Pringle  20:34 I had a variety of challenges. Throughout my career, I'll say I didn't have necessarily a straight line in the way that I went. And I think that's great. And I didn't know if I was, you know, I applied to a lot of different opportunities, you know, there's so many, and I, you know, I didn't get half of them or more. I wanted to be a Squadron Commander down at Air Education and Training Command down at Lackland. And I didn't get selected. That's okay. It like, it's, I kept going and doing other things, and other doors opened, and so you just, you just don't give up. That would have been an amazing opportunity. And what they do down at Lackland is phenomenal. But, you know, that's just one example of, you know, something I tried and didn't pan out. But what do you do, you just keep going and try something new, or work on those skills and learn from it. The worst thing I could have done, or the worst thing anyone could do, is to let that you know, non-selection define them as an individual or feel like, you know, all hope for the future is lost. That's not, couldn't be, couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, all learning comes from failure. And that's something we need to embrace, to improve, to adapt to change, and to keep getting better, right? And to grow as leaders to grow as a leader. So, I love a challenge. So, I took those failures as a challenge. All right, what am I going to learn what I'm going to do next?   Naviere Walkewicz  22:23 And it probably even helped in your, you've probably mentored others, you know, that are going through similar challenges that actually like let's look at it this from a different vantage point. And because you kind of went through those different experiences, you're able to be even more impactful in their lives.   Gen. Heather Pringle  22:35 It is important to be honest and give feedback that helps individuals grow. And so, another thought maybe for supervisors is we don't do them any favors if we don't tell them honestly, where they're strong, but where they need to work. And so, we all want to improve, and we all want to be the best that we can at whatever job that we've been given. So, I welcome that kind of feedback. And I'm currently learning about what I need to do. And so, I've got a lot to learn. So, I'm all ears every day all day long.   Naviere Walkewicz  23:14 I think there's a, I don't know that it's not a direct quote, it's certainly not in contrails. But there's something that talks about I think, truly being kind is being honest, you know, being truthful with people. And I think that's some of the best ways we can be kind is by just being honest and truthful with others. So sure. Now, that's wonderful. So you had mentioned that some of the best things that, you know, advice you can give to someone is ways that they can improve. Was there any particular mentor leader that just gave you something that really stuck with you, aside from general wells that maybe you've taken with you in your career as a growth opportunity?   Gen. Heather Pringle  23:45 A lot, I honestly, I really have so many people that I'm grateful for leaving a mark on me. You know, I learned or watched from afar, General Laurie Robinson and she would always say, “Be the best airman you can be, but also be the best wingman that you can be.” And I think that is another area where not only trying to improve yourself but uplift your teammates. And the mission gets done 100 times better if the whole team is working in concert. And the failure, the success or the failure of the mission isn't on one person's shoulders. It never is on one person's shoulders. There's a whole team of folks out there who if we are the best wingman that we can be, then the mission will succeed.   Naviere Walkewicz  24:44 Right, now teams are where it's at. And you had the opportunity to lead an incredible team at AFRL. And what's so, I think, so cool about that is you were at a time when you were supporting both Air and Space Force. Let's talk a little bit about that and talk about what was it like when you found out you're going to be commanding, you know, Air Force Research Laboratory? How did that feel and maybe just kind of share some of those moments with us.   Gen. Heather Pringle  25:08 Well the Air Force Research Lab, which you know, don't get confused about Air Force in the name, because it's there for the Space Force too, and provides a ton of amazing technologies for guardians. That was the honor of a lifetime, a huge privilege, because that team is eye-wateringly smart, and brilliant, and innovative. And they are, every day focused on solving problems for warfighters. What can be a higher calling than that? I, I just enjoyed getting to know them, helping them succeed. And they're doing some amazing things for, you know, they shoot lasers, they build robots, they blow things up. They code like crazy, right? It's just they love it, they love it. And they're great at it. They're the best in the world. And I'm forever grateful to have had that opportunity. And I know they continue that mission, even today. That's the other beauty of the military. So even when you have an opportunity, you're always moving, right. And now I know that the research lab is in wonderful, amazing, great hands of a test pilot, and doing even better things. And so it keeps getting better and better. Just like those cadets were better than we were back in the day. AFRL is better today than it ever was. And it's going in the right direction. And I would encourage anybody who's listening to go look up the research lab, because it's pretty inspiring, and they don't get the credit they deserve. That's for sure.   Naviere Walkewicz  27:00 Well, that is good for people. I think people always want to know, like, how do we get to some of these technologies that are doing all of these things and supporting our guardians, our Air Force, or you know, what does that look like? And I think that's cool that you said, “Hey, go check it out.” And part of that is maybe that journey will take them there as well.   Gen. Heather Pringle  27:15 Yeah. So that'd be great.   Naviere Walkewicz  27:17 How did you find out, so talk about just I think that's such a wonderful opportunity to like you said, you know, chance of a lifetime. How did you find out when you were selected for that?   Gen. Heather Pringle  27:26 Oh, I don't even remember. It was probably a blur. I was pretty incredulous though. I'll say this when I graduated in 1991. So last century, I never would have dreamed that I would have had such an opportunity or such a wonderful, yeah, opportunity to be a part of a team like that. So, as I said, my trajectory or my path may have been weaving, and I got so lucky to be there. And now they're doing great things. I just remember trying to relish every moment and trying to relate to the team that what they did mattered. And they're in it for the long haul. So, when they're solving problems, it's not a two-day problem. It's a problem for 10 years from now. So, it can be a little discouraging, but that's where you kind of have to have that you're in it for the long game. So, I don't really remember it was kind of a blur.   Naviere Walkewicz  28:33 Just the whole experience was itself just amazing. Yeah.   Gen. Heather Pringle  28:37 And it was also COVID. So that was a bit of a tricky wicket to navigate and figure out, well, how are you going to lead a distributed, diverse organization like that?   Naviere Walkewicz  28:57 Yeah, that's cool. That is, was there a particular capability that under your leadership, and with the team with you that you could, you know, just share about that you're proud of that kind of was accomplished during your tenure?   Gen. Heather Pringle  29:08 Well, they did it all. So, all the credit goes to the 10,000 professionals who do all that problem solving. They were focused on everything from, oh, the Battle Network, JADC to, to all this space technologies which are so exciting, and also the collaborative combat aircraft was a big one. And the other thing, I'll mention it here, too, even in that organization, it was important to think about who else is contributing to that mission. So, all of those technologies were collaborative efforts with acquirers and Air Force Materiel Command and the program offices with the warfighters, who were helping us understand what is needed on the battlefield and everyone in between. So, none of that work gets done without the whole team contributing.   Naviere Walkewicz  30:16 Was there any moments that you remember that you were surprised? Were there any particular people that just really kind of stood out to you that you were just so incredibly happy that you were able to be a part of their team? While you're there?   Gen. Heather Pringle  30:29 I used to say that if I, if I'm not surprised every single day, then the Air Force Research Lab isn't doing its job. Over the course of a couple years, there were plenty of surprises and lots of opportunities to learn, right? Say that in quotes. So, you were asking before the show, what are unicorns? Yeah, and I may have overused the phrase, but I always thought of the team at the research lab as unicorns because each one was unique. We had opera singers and fiction writers and band players. And, by the way, the world record for pumpkin chucking in a trebuchet is held by an AFRL team. Everyone had a unique story, they came from such amazing backgrounds, and here they were dedicated to serving the nation through technology.   Naviere Walkewicz  31:30 So that is how you catch unicorns? Well, let's talk a little bit about your transition from the military side to the civilian sector and nonprofit work. What does that been like for you?   Gen. Heather Pringle  31:42 Well, it was, it was hard to say goodbye to the team. And but, you know, like all things, you know, life goes on, and they're doing amazing, which is, I'm so proud of them, and so happy for them. And that's what you love to see. And that's truly the beauty of the military. And coming to being a retired person I love being called Heather. So that's probably, and mom, actually, I love mom first. And I get that a lot more than, you know, when I was full time military. And I have found that a lot of the things that you learned those gifts that you pick up through your military career are valued by the civilian sector. So having a mission focus, thinking about, you know, what is it you're trying to accomplish, and then focusing all your efforts on that. And you can't forget, it all starts with the team and who they are and the leadership that permeates everything. So, no mission gets accomplished, without the team there behind it. So, I've spent time getting to know this new team, that I'm a part of learning their unique contributions and understanding what the mission is. And then again, relying on that whole external teamwork, that external group of partners and stakeholders who also want success for that mission, and you find it's not lonely, you're not alone in accomplishing that, that so many people want you to succeed. And that's, that's what I want for your listeners. I want them to go conquer the world, make it better, you know, sweep up all that broken glass that me and my troubled classmates made and it's a little change, you know, you I'll say I have more to give and so that spirit of service before self, if that isn't in my blood, I'm, I am really hoping to continue to serve my family, my community, and my team and so I've got more to give and the Academy gave me those foundational skills to give more.   Naviere Walkewicz  34:18 I mean, well, starting with your family to your time as a cadet to your time in the military, and now the civilian, this new journey. What are some of the most important lessons that you've learned? Maybe in leadership and maybe just in you know, being a successful servant?   Gen. Heather Pringle  34:35 Oh, well, you know, and it's not always success. It's going through setbacks, learning more and trying to be more honest and sometimes those learnings are hard, too. And I had to, I had, there were times when I had to think long and hard about okay, what does this really mean? Am I being truly honest with myself and uh, you know, I'm not, I'm far from perfect. But, you know, I guess just, you know, being the best person that you are. Own whatever unique story that you are. Don't try and be something you're not. You know, I'm from Idaho, you're from Nebraska, we can do that. And it makes the solution so much better. And the more we help each other, the more successful our world will be. I guess the one thing I haven't mentioned really is take time to be with your family and know that they're making your service possible. And now I'm giving back to them.   Naviere Walkewicz  35:46 I mean, you've given so many incredible nuggets about yourself, and I think that people can really relate to that are listening. What's something that you really want them to remember about you?   Gen. Heather Pringle  35:57 I would just say, don't think about me, you know, just go for it. And if you need help, call me. So that's it, that I just said, go for it. There's nothing should be stopping you. And you know, every challenge is an opportunity to learn and I bet you are so much better than you even know that you are. So go for it.   Naviere Walkewicz  36:21 I think that was a great boil down nugget there. Well, I do want to just make sure we're there anything that I didn't ask you that you would really love for our listeners to hear?   Gen. Heather Pringle  36:32 No, I just want to say thanks for having me. I hope it's been an enjoy. It's I've enjoyed the conversation. So very much. Yeah. You know, it's it's important to be part of this community and give back and thanks for doing these kinds of podcasts to spread the word and get people excited. Yes, about coming to the academy and serving our Air Force in our space force. There is so much out there to do really is and we need great people and there's a lot of us out there rooting for you.   Naviere Walkewicz  37:11 Thank you very much. Thanks so much and Heather you have a wonderful day.   Gen. Heather Pringle  You as well.     KEYWORDS team, Academy, cadet, great, Air Force, mission, Air Force Academy, work, military, love, leadership, unique, amazing, Idaho, serving, challenge, learn, opportunity, Heather, mother, mom, leader, succeed       The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation

What are the top five characteristics great leaders share? Academy graduates, Alison '15 and Paul '16 Yang, discuss that answer — and more! ----more----SUMMARY Alison '15 and Paul '15 Yang discuss their backgrounds, experiences at the Air Force Academy, transition to the corporate world, and key qualities of successful leaders. Their leadership lessons and takeaways?  The importance of caring about people, having humility, being resilient, managing stakeholders, and leading through change.   LEARN.  ENGAGE.  LEAD! Read Veterans in Leadership: How Military Careers Can Shape Corporate Success including the contributions of Alison and Paul Yang.    DOWNLOAD THE VETERANS IN LEADERSHIP PDF HERE  |  SPENCERSTUART.COM   OUR FAVORITE QUOTES - "Care about people, whether that's, you know, asking about how their day was to participate in the flightline and solving everyday problems." - Paul Yang - "You have the humility to set yourself aside. You have a leg up, which enables you to have teams that perform under pressure and operate well through change." - Alison Yang - "I truly did [enjoy the YC advice]. I think sometimes Alison is very good at telling you what you need to hear." - Paul Yang - "Folks that come out of the military have no quit. If when we asked him to expand that out, he talked about how, when someone is asked whether or not they're willing to potentially make the ultimate sacrifice for this country, any other ask following that, in and out of the military becomes, I don't want to say easy, but it's going to fall short of it, right." - Paul Yang - "Care about people. And if you care about people, your interpersonal skills are likely decent, you have the humility to set yourself aside, you have a leg up on stakeholder management, which enables you to have teams that perform under pressure and operate well through change." - Alison Yang   SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK  |  LINKEDIN  |  TWITTER  |  EMAIL   CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction and Background 03:47 Childhood and Influences 07:04 High School and Leadership 10:51 Air Force Academy Experience 14:47 Career Choices: Maintenance Officer and Intelligence 20:30 Leadership Skills from the Military 24:03 Transitioning to the Corporate World 29:40 Transitioning as a Couple 35:13 Mistakes and Lessons Learned 46:23 Key Qualities of Successful Leaders 53:20 Advice for Future Leaders 58:02 Closing Remarks and Contact Information 59:05 How They Met 01:00:09 First Impressions 01:01:52 Working Together 01:02:52 Thoughts on Wise Advice   OUR FAVORITE TAKEAWAYS - Caring about people is a key quality of successful leaders. - Humility and resilience are important traits for leaders. - Effective stakeholder management and leading through change are crucial skills. - Transitioning from the military to the corporate world requires support and networking. - Continuous learning and self-improvement are essential for leadership development.   BIOS Alison Yang '16 I lead the delivery of global executive searches for US industrial companies and specialize in engineered products, distribution, and aerospace & defense. Spencer Stuart is the world's leading leadership advisory firm. Founded in 1956 and privately owned, we are the adviser of choice among organizations seeking guidance and counsel on senior leadership needs. We work with clients across a range of industries, from the world's largest companies to medium-sized businesses, entrepreneurial startups and nonprofit organizations. Spencer Stuart today has 56 offices in 30 countries. Our global reach, leadership in CEO and senior executive searches, and status as the premier firm for board counsel give us unparalleled access to the world's top executive talent. CONNECT WITH ALISON - Copy and image credit:  www.linkedin.com   Paul Yang '15 Spencer Stuart is one of the world's leading executive search consulting firms. Founded in 1956 and privately owned, we are the advisor of choice among organizations seeking guidance and counsel on senior leadership needs. We work with clients across a range of industries, from the world's largest companies to medium-sized businesses, entrepreneurial startups and nonprofit organizations. Through 56 offices in 30 countries and a broad range of practice groups, our global reach, leadership in CEO and senior executive searches, and status as the premier firm for board counsel give us unparalleled access to the world's top executive talent. CONNECT WITH PAUL - Copy and image credit:  www.linkedin.com LEARN MORE ABOUT SPENCER STUART     ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!        FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Our Host is Dr. Doug Lindsay '92 | Our Guests are Alison '15 and Paul '16 Yang   Paul Yang  00:08 It's real lives and young airmen and enlisted folks that you're put in charge of, and really making a true impact in people's lives on a day to day basis.   Alison Yang  00:16 The one theme, if we could say, captures all of this, is care about people.   Paul Yang  00:24 Whether that's, you know, asking about how their day was to supporting flightline and solving everyday problems.   Alison Yang  00:31 You have the humility to set yourself aside. You have a leg up, which enables you to have teams that perform under pressure and operate well through change. And it's also the difference between having people who just get the job done because they have to versus the people who get the job done because they want to. They believe in you.   Doug Lindsay  01:19 My guests today are Allison and Paul Yang, USAFA class of 2015 and 2016, respectively. Allison and Paul are a married couple based in the Washington, DC area and both work at Spencer Stewart, a global executive search and leadership advisory firm as associates in executive search. Both served in the Air Force with distinction winding up their careers in 2022 as officers in intelligence and maintenance leading large teams.  They are accomplished students of leadership and writers, which is how we met Allison and Paul. The pair recently contributed to an article on veterans and leadership in a Spencer Stewart publication. The article featured profiles of 10 prominent CEOs, three of whom are USAFA graduates and currently lead United Airlines, McAfee and Johnstone Supply.  We'll spend the next few minutes getting to know Allison and Paul, and we'll talk about their work with Spencer Stewart. Then we'll focus on the top five qualities they believe make the best leaders. And finally, we'll ask them to share one or two bits of advice they would give to those who want to be leaders and leaders who want to become even better. Joining us from the DC area, Allison and Paul, welcome to the Long Blue Leadership podcast.   Alison Yang  02:31 Thanks, Doug. We're happy to be here.   Paul Yang  02:32 Hey, Doug, happy to be here as well.   Doug Lindsay  02:34 Glad to have you. As we get started, if you don't mind, would you give us a little bit of a backstory on your lives as children before you got to the Academy? What was that like? And what was your growing up experience like?   Paul Yang  02:46 Sure, I could start. So I come from an immigrant family. My parents moved to the United States in 1993. When I was about two and a half years old, they moved to Queens, New York. My mom was a pharmacist and my dad was a truck driver. And so it was an interesting sort of startup story is what I'd like to call it. In the sense that I spent my weekends teaching my parents the English that I had learned during school and spent the weekend doing that for my parents. It was also a little bit of a challenging household as well. Maybe it's a little too much. But my dad was a bit of an alcoholic. A lot of stress growing up in this country and not knowing the language and trying to navigate it being in a completely different environment. So that led to sometimes an unsafe environment, but heavily influenced how I operate and how I think, being a problem solver paying, attention to detail, facing adversity, etc.   Alison Yang  03:44 I had a bit of a different childhood. I had what you would describe as an all-American childhood. My mom was a first grade teacher, my dad was an Air Force officer and had two younger brothers close in age. We were all best friends, all loved sports and we had to be best friends because we moved every few years or so but that really taught me how to be resilient, how to adapt to a lot of change in life. And I ended up growing this love for people. I loved meeting new people everywhere I went. I know sometimes it can go the other way where you hate moving. But for some reason I really clung on to that.   Doug Lindsay  04:20 So very different kind of origin stories there. But with those kinds of influences, and Paul, you mentioned that some of the challenges you had with that home dynamic and but also, Alison moving around a little bit. How did that translate into wanting to go to the Academy and doing that kind of opportunity? Was that something that's always kind of part of who you were? Alison, you said you like people and was that just part of that idea of service? Or how did that all come to be?    Alison Yang  04:47 Yeah, sure. I think I'd always been a very outgoing kid always driven to be an achiever. So, this passion for people, I would say it especially started in high school and I prided myself on knowing everyone in the in the class so I was class president. And you know, I was friends with the dorks and was friends with the popular kids. And my proudest moment in high school was actually, I was a benchwarmer on the varsity basketball team. And I was voted captain of my varsity basketball team. So, I would go up against, you know, the star player on the opposing team. I'd come off the bench, flip the coin and go sit back down on the bench, you know, it's sort of like a Rudy story. They throw me in the last few minutes of the game. But anyway, really proud of that. And then also saw the service aspect from my dad, and then saw a lot of women in leadership and knew that that's something I could totally do that I would love to do that I'd love a challenge. And so yeah, I would definitely say that all stemmed from my childhood.   Paul Yang  05:51 And then for me, I'd say my parents really encouraged me to kind of go out there and learn what's out there and get involved as much as I can. We kind of had this rule where in the house, we would speak Korean. But then when you're outside of the house, you're speaking English all the time. Which is interesting, you know, because my parents wanted to learn the learn the language and get familiar with it. But that made that basically kind of ingrained in me this idea that there's this whole world of knowledge out there, and there's all these things to do, especially being in a brand new country. So, throughout my childhood and growing up, I spent a lot of time getting involved in different clubs, in different sports, just because I wasn't familiar with it and be because I wanted to learn it and figure it out. So, I did a varying range of things. I did Model UN, I tried out the robotics club. I wasn't very good at it, but I tried it, I can say that, and a couple of different sports. That influenced me when I got to the Academy because I tried out for a sport that I never played before. And I ended up playing the whole, season, which is, you know, pretty interesting. And it was a great, great time to do that. But I, didn't really know that the Air Force Academy existed. I just kind of knew, hey, I want to give back to this country. I want to give, I want to be able to serve, I want to be able to give back. And so I always knew I wanted to give, join the military. And I guess that's what kind of led me down the path of going to the academy and listed first out of high school. And I was really, really fortunate and lucky to be surrounded by some key mentors of mine that told me that this place called this the Air Force Academy existed in Colorado Springs. You should apply. So much so that they were like, “Hey, don't have to work until you finish your application”, you know. So, I was very fortunate to have those folks that champion me, again, kind of further shaped my view of leadership later on in life.   Doug Lindsay  07:52 And then Allison for you in terms of the Academy itself, was it something you were familiar with? Because of your dad? How did you come to know about the Academy?   Alison Yang  08:02 And so yeah, he was not an Academy grad. So, for me, I, you know, my junior year of high school was considering the options. And I heard about the Air Force Academy, knew about it from my dad, who had friends who had gone to the Academy, and I've stepped into the Junior ROTC in my high school and said, “Hey, I'd love like a pamphlet on the Air Force Academy”. And they're like, “Sit down”, you know, “what sports are you in?” I was like, “What? “Whoa, I just want a pamphlet”. But, but anyway, that sort of started the process. And once I started the application process, which is, as a lot of listeners know, it's just an intensive application process, and you feel like you've achieved something when you submit it. So, I was really excited, you know, to have that opportunity. And yeah, I just, I knew it was right for me, especially as someone who was an achiever.   Doug Lindsay  08:54 So, what was that like when you got here then? So, you kind of very accomplished in high school, a lot of activity really busy. And then you kind of… that meets reality, when you actually kind of get here on in-processing and do that. What was that? Like, once you kind of got here in terms of that? Was it confirming or affirming of what you were doing? Or, were there some questions about, “What did I get myself into?”   Alison Yang  09:16 I loved it. And I had watched a lot of videos about basic training. But I have a really funny story. In my in-processing day, I was ready to conquer it, you know, got through all the screaming on the footprints. And I was like, I just got to make it to my room and I'll have some roommates and I can commiserate. We can do this together. And I get to my dorm room. And my two roommates one of them wouldn't speak to me. She was too nervous to talk. The other one had started hyperventilating. And she couldn't calm down. And so I will say both of them are incredible officers still in the Air Force today. Both made it through but in that moment, I said to myself, I'm gonna have to do this. This is gonna be me. We're gonna, you know and so it was a little bit of a reality check once I got to that moment.    Paul Yang  10:03 Yeah, for me, I would say I-day in-processing and basic training at the Academy felt in an odd way familiar, right, because I had gone through enlisted basic training. And then I went to the prep school and went through basic training there. So by the time it came around, I kind of knew, Okay, I'm gonna get yelled at, they're gonna break us down and go through this whole process. But I felt this need or this kind of calling to help my other classmates, because many of which were coming, many of whom were coming straight out of high school. And so even as simple as rolling socks, and cleaning your room, and hospital corners, those are things that I would say I've been doing every day, right, once you get out of basic training, but something I was familiar with at the very least. And so that desire to kind of share what I had known, even if it's something as simple as rolling socks, and folding your t-shirts in the right way to meet the measurements, I figured, you know, this is something that I know this is something that could be helpful in some way, shape or form. Let me go ahead and share that. And so my whole like early stages, or the early days at the Academy, that's what I felt called to do. Sharing that knowledge.   Doug Lindsay  11:14 Both of you (had) different kind of unique experiences as you work through the 47 months of the Academy, right? You're exposed to these new things. What would you say are kind of the couple of maybe crucible moments or the important moments or impacts that the Academy had on you during that time in terms of your development, not just as a person, but as a leader?    Paul Yang  11:37 I had never played a game of soccer in my in my entire life. Maybe it's because I grew up in New York, and there's not many fields. Maybe that's the reason why but I never played it. And so when I got this was during the prep school, when I got to the prep school, one of my buddies and my unit, or my squadron said, “Hey, you should try out for this team. You seem athletic, you'd like to run, why don't you come out to the field and try it out.” I did. And I enjoyed it. I didn't know how to kick a soccer ball the right way. But I knew how to run. And I knew that I was competitive and sort of headstrong in that way. So, I would say that was a highlight. And I got lucky because the person that would be starting in the position that I was in as left back ended up getting injured. And so I found myself in this situation of okay, I basically know how to play this sport. I can listen, I can listen to my coach's advice. But I have now I found myself in a starting position. I wasn't again, one repeat, like I wasn't very good. But I felt like what an opportunity to be able to play this sport at this level, having never played it before. And the Academy, certainly, you know, only a place like that, where you're given an opportunity like that, right? So that was like a pretty big moment, for me. A very proud moment. Maybe like a low-light for me, it was about halfway through the Academy, I was going through some personal things that I maybe lost sight of and I let it affect my academics, particularly one class, and I ended up failing a course. And at the end of the semester is you know, when you fail the course you go through the board process and you kind of go through, hey, you're gonna make it through. And I almost got disenrolled and I had my act advisor, someone you may know, Doug, but he really championed me. And he said, “Hey, it's okay, this these things happen”. Kind of brought me back down to earth and went through the board process ended up obviously not getting disenrolled. But it was a big, it was a big, tough pill for me to swallow of, hey, there are things in life that you need to focus on and make sure they're squared away and good to go. And ensure that it doesn't leak into other areas of your life is particularly if if there are high stakes involved, right, like enrollment at the Air Force Academy. Yeah.   Doug Lindsay  13:57 And I think that's an important part, right? Because that we tend to focus on maybe the positives, right? And we don't realize that without those kind of crucible moments, those kind of lower points that, you know, that helps frame out who we are, our perspective and who knows that opportunity. It sounds like it kind of change your trajectory a little bit about kind of reassessing. What am I doing here? What do I really want to get out of it? Right?   Paul Yang  14:19 Yeah, certainly a while I certainly cared more about academics after the fact. But it was it was a good lesson of, hey, this is real, you know, and I think to your point of, sometimes you could be flying high and in a really good place and you don't realize these little areas of your life that may be taking a toll and maybe require your attention and I think it's a good leadership theme as well. Of their different areas. It takes a lot of bandwidth. And so, making sure you take the time to take a step back and a lot your effort and your capacity in the areas that require it so that you are healthy and you're good to go. So that you can be present.   Doug Lindsay  15:01 Had a similar experience one of my semesters, my first semester sophomore year, I came in at a 2.0. And it was really close enough to the sun, so to speak, that that was my crucible moment. I'm like, that was a real evaluation moment for me to go. Okay, I need to, I need to do some things differently if I want to keep making this happen. Allison, how about you maybe some high and low point for you as well?   Alison Yang  15:25 Yeah, one of my favorite things about the Air Force Academy is just the incredible opportunities that it affords cadets so, I did the jump program, I did an immersion trip to Poland, I did a language trip to Morocco, a DC trip for a history class, I was on the lacrosse team and got to travel all over the place, marched in an Inauguration Day parade. So, all of those were just incredible moments. I would say the biggest thing that had an impact on my leadership is I was able to be the cadet squadron commander, my senior year. I'll say that peer leadership is the hardest thing. And I think that being a cadet, anything, you know, as a leader of cadets is harder than any officer leadership position I had, probably because there's, you know, formal structure within the military, there's, there's a natural chain of command, but when you're leading your peers, you know, you have to live with them every day too. So, it's a total exercise in dealing with people interpersonal skills. You know, in your, it was the greatest leadership gift I think the Academy afforded me. And then the low-light for me. So, I was the wing Command Chief, which was, you know, the top junior position, my junior year, and I did something called Weiss Advice. My last name was Weiss at the time, and I would go up on the staff tower, and I would give everyone morning advice at 6:00 a.m. before their breakfast, you know, something like, “Be a good friend today”. You know, you never know what your team your teammate is going through. This was at a time where there was social media that was allowed, and people could, you know, talk chat about whatever going on at the Academy. And I would say about half the wing was indifferent, a quarter loved the Weiss advice, and a quarter hated the Weiss Advice. And so, I got that direct feedback. And so, it was a great lesson to me that not everyone's going to love everything that you do. And especially as a person who really, who loves people who wants to be friends with everyone, learning that sometimes as a leader, you have to make tough decisions, or you have to do things that maybe not everyone will be on board with. But that was a, you know, it was a great lesson for me at that time that I carried on throughout my officer career.   Doug Lindsay  17:54 Taking those experiences you had at the Academy, how did that translate into saying, “Hey, I want to be a maintenance officer. I want to be an Intel officer?”.    Alison Yang  18:02 Yeah, and for me, I loved my political science and international relations classes. And that drew me into an interest in the intelligence field and just really synthesizing data about the world, understanding what drives our adversaries what motivates people again, and then ultimately, you know, proposing solutions actionable solutions to leaders to make decisions. So really enabling operations, which I loved, it would get me as close to operations as possible without actually flying in a plane. I tried power flight. Threw up every time so I knew that being a pilot was not for me. But yeah, just that foundation in my classes actually at the Academy drew me into intelligence.    Paul Yang  18:49 Well, I chose to be a maintenance officer. I put that as my top choice. Early in my first year, when we were putting in our preferences, I was thinking through okay, what's the career field where that'll provide me sort of the best opportunity to do exactly what I enjoy doing, which is championing others in solving problems. And obviously, by me gravitating towards leadership opportunities and learning about the world kind of pointed me towards the direction of maintenance because I knew that maintenance is a tough leadership environment, especially as a brand new lieutenant, you're kind of thrown in there, leading dozens plus people and there's a lot of problems to solve from the operational side and so okay, this is I think this is where I belong. I spoke to a number of different maintenance officers at the time there were AOCs some academic instructors as well. And so I knew okay, this is this is where I want to go and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I love the environment of being a thrown into somewhere where there's high stakes, it's on, it's on you and your team to figure something out. And it's real lives and real young airmen and enlisted folks that you're put in charge of and being able to be there relying on senior NCOs. And really making a true impact in people's lives on a day-to-day basis for the better, whether that's, you know, asking about how their day was to champion them because they need time off and managing their schedule to make sure that they have what they need to be best supported to, to support in the flightline and solving everyday problems. We don't have to go too much into the details there. But it's a tough group all dapper operationally. And I gravitated towards that.   Doug Lindsay  20:45 And I do want to ask a question about how you all got together. So, class of 2015 class of 2016, both at the academy at the at the same time, and now and you're married. So, can you tell us a little bit about how that started or how you met?   Alison Yang  21:00 I first remember meeting Paul, when he walked into an interview that I was holding, for my second in command as I was a cadet squadron commander, so I was looking for my superintendent and Paul interviewed for that role was the first time I had met him. I was dating someone else at the time. So, I had no romantic interest in him. But that was the first time I remember meeting him and I hired him. So, he worked with me for a semester. And then we became great friends after that.   Paul Yang  21:31 I think we had talked about earlier when Allison at six at six o'clock in the morning was sharing Weiss Advice up on the staff tower, before breakfast, when everyone's just trying to make it through the day. I learned obviously from a distance, and I had a lot of respect for her. I obviously still have a ton of respect for her now. And then when I found out that I was moving into 30, and I was applying to be her superintendent, I was like, “Wow, I would love to get to know this individual. And I'd love even more so to work for her”. So, there's kind of his running joke where our relationship started with Alison being my boss, and she still is today. Very much so and so that's sort of like our, our founding story, if you will.   Doug Lindsay  22:19 And then Paul, a question for you. So, the Weiss Advice that Alison talked about, what was your reaction sitting in, in Mitchell Hall hearing that that information?   Paul Yang  22:29 I personally enjoyed it. I think “Al” (short for Alison) had mentioned that maybe like, maybe a quarter of the people really, really enjoyed it. But I truly did. I think sometimes Al is very good at telling you what you need to hear. And certainly in our, in our marriage. And so, I really appreciated that even at the early waking morning hours of the day, that Allison was getting up there and saying some true hard things, like, “Be a friend. Support somebody. Be there for one another. If you have a tough test, at the end of the day, you'll be done with it”. I mean, just like simple things like that might not sound like a lot at the surface level. But it really hits home because it's just real. And it's true. And it's and it's honest. And so, to answer your question bluntly, I loved it.   Doug Lindsay  23:20 The Academy and the experiences that you've kind of talked a little about really spring-boarded you in those careers, because you obviously had success early on in maintenance and intel. What was it that you think you got out of the Academy that really kind of helped set the stage for you there?   Alison Yang  23:35 I think I would go back to the whole peer leadership thing, the fact that I had already been leading, you know, leading people honestly, as a senior and then went straight into, you know, my job as an Intel officer, I was leading a floor of 75 airmen at DGS Ops Center, and it was just awesome. I just had all these people around me, I knew how to interact with people I knew, you know. And then you even have an operational mission then so then it just becomes even more important. And I think that really set the stage. I mean, all of the character and leadership development that were taught at the Air Force Academy, all of that becomes second nature. You know, that's nothing that we have to learn at that point and, and being that kind of leader for people I think really helped me spring-board as just a second lieutenant into a successful intel career.   Paul Yang  24:34 The wealth of resources that the Air Force Academy has, even if it's just walking down the hallway, and talking to your AOC, who had spent probably 10 plus years in a specific career field and knows people in other career fields. And so, the networking aspect that the Air Force Academy provides is huge and being able to literally just walk down the hallway or maybe it's your instructor for one of your classes that came out of a curriculum to teach at the Air Force Academy. So, utilizing that network, and just knowing the wealth of knowledge and resources there has been huge.   Doug Lindsay  25:11 It's just always interesting to me to see the path that people choose. Because I certainly had my path and I found my way through. But it's just very interesting how personal that is, even though we all kind of go through a similar process, how we personalize that it's just really, I think, interesting as part of our journeys. And so, you're on active duty, you're having a lot of success, and then both decide to transition to something different. So can you talk to me a little bit about what that transition was like in terms of kind of getting into the space that you're in now kind of more the leader development space with, with where you're at right now.   Paul Yang  25:46 So, we decided to transition out at the same time, which, by the way, many of our colleagues and close friends thought we were crazy to be separating at the same time, due to the sheer amount of risk there. But you know, we took a leap of faith, we attended a career conference through a junior military officer, hiring and transitioning company. And when we attended this conference, Allison and I, we really kind of focused on the company culture, and the mission of the company. That's because we're coming out of the military, you know, we naturally gravitate towards companies that had a clear and defined mission orientation or goal, something that is founded on a clear values that aligned with the things that we felt we aligned with. And so, we both came across specially actually, we were, when we attended a career conference, they told us, you know, don't really lead with, hey, you guys are married. Because we were actually interviewed with very similar companies. And there was a decent amount of overlap, they told us to attend as individuals, rack and stack them in your in your brain individually and see where the alignment is with location with career fields and in different areas. And we came across an executive search firm, Spencer Stewart, and we just absolutely head over heels fell in love with the company culture and the type of work that it is, and it's certainly aligned, I guess I'll just speak for myself in this area, but it'll align with how I think and, and how I approach my day to day, which is championing the people, giving people a chance and solving problems. And so being in executive search, that's essentially what you get to do. You're helping your clients solve problems. And in this case, it would be leadership gaps, whether it's succession planning, maybe someone's retiring, etc. And you're talking to people about potential candidates for a role that maybe otherwise wouldn't have landed on their, on their radar in the past. And so being able to learn their story, figure out what their career goals are. And if there's an alignment with where they are trying to go with an opportunity to that a company can offer a great, let's talk about it.   Alison Yang  28:04 I agree, everything that Paul says is accurate. And maybe just to answer just the beginning of your question, why we made the decision. So we were both hard charging on active duty and really loved the service. For us, we just had decided, okay, we're going to be in a position where one of us will have to deploy the other will have to go back to teach. If we had this, we could see our career paths taking a divergent, you know, path, I guess you'd say. And so, we decided, let's just see what else is out there. And let's see what we can do. Paul had some experience that you know, from his dad and the business experience he's had in this country. For me, brand new, had no, you know, didn't even know what corporate life was like. And I said, “If not now, then when?”, and we made the leap and, and everything Paul said about Spencer Stuart so we joined. The culture is incredible. And we've really enjoyed our time so far in the year and a half we've been here.   Doug Lindsay  29:02 What was it that really kind of helped you kind of land successfully on the other side, because we know sometimes people struggle a little bit there sometimes in terms of what do I want to do?   Paul Yang  29:12 We were doing it together. And so, we naturally just had someone across the dinner table championing each other and going through the same experience together. And so being able to talk through ideas, talk through all the different scenarios and just having an ear that would listen was really, really helpful for us. And I wouldn't say that's, that's the only way but just having a partner through that, I think kind of tells a broader story of making sure that you surround yourself with folks around you that that have been through something like this before, or, or is going through it and being able to talk through things and act as a sounding board was really helpful for us.   Alison Yang  30:00 We are also huge proponents of transition companies, especially for junior military officers, we would have had no idea and we partnered with Cameron Brooks, spent a whole year in their program. They helped us translate our military skills into corporate speak, helped us with resumes. And then we had about 20 different companies that were aligned to our experiences that we would have never thought we would be qualified for. And if it were not for a program like that, I'm not sure we would have known and not only that, we had all these different industries we can compare. So, Paul and I got to say, “Alright, do we want to do manufacturing? Do we want to do banking? You know, do we want to be in professional services?” And we ultimately chose that incredible experience overall.   Doug Lindsay  30:47 Any regrets? No, that's great.   Alison Yang  None.   Paul Yang  30:50 No, no regrets.   Doug Lindsay  30:52 You talked about executive search and doing some of that. Can you walk us through a little bit what that looks like?   Paul Yang  30:57 At our firm where we're in executive search. And so that's actually a world we didn't know existed prior to going into the career conference and starting in this firm, but, but basically, we help large, mid to large sized companies on the public side and, and then on the private side, as well, we help leaders sort of make career moves, or we help clients solve their internal succession and leadership planning. What that looks like on a day to day basis, just to kind of maybe break it down, is a lot of calls a lot of internal and external conversations where you're running projects or searches internally, and just making sure we're following the process. And we're making sure we're managing things internally hitting all the dates for the deliverables. And then externally, lots of meetings with clients providing updates on market feedback, it also is probably the bulk of the amount of time that we spend is having conversations with potential candidates to make sure that we go through the full assessment process and doing our full due diligence to ensure that the folks that we would be potentially putting forth on a search on an opportunity are aligned well, yeah.   Alison Yang  32:16 And then Paul and I are both in different practices within the firm. So, I'm in the industrial practice, which means that I help recruit, assess and place executives in any domain within industrial so that could be oil and gas. That could be you know, manufactured products, engineered products, aerospace and defense distribution at large. It could be anything within the industrial sector, anywhere from a vice president level up to CEO.   Paul Yang  32:50 And I'm in, I'm in more of a functional practice, we call it financial officer practice, or basically CFOs. So, most of my work is basically, all of my work is with finance executives. So, CFOs and key deputies, and that's since it's functional. I basically spent a lot of my time across many different industries, because I think CFO-speak is pretty transferable from, from one company to another, from one industry to another, with the exception of a few that are just, they're different. But so, I guess that's like the difference between a focused industry versus a functional practice.   Doug Lindsay  33:32 What you talked about, that idea of being able to connect with people with influence championing others, solving problems. It sounds like you've kind of found your space on the other side in terms of what it is that you really enjoy kind of what your purpose is, is that fair to say?   Alison Yang  33:48 Absolutely, yes, yes. And it's one of the reasons why we, why we love it so much is we really feel that we've landed in a place where we can utilize all these skills. And also, when we're assessing talent, one reason that it's just great at being you know, having been a leader in the military is that when these executives are talking to us about change, management, change leadership within the organization, we don't know it conceptually, we know it practically from our time in service. So, we know if they're just blowing smoke, or, you know, so we found that very valuable and, and it's really cool. I mean, I think, and this is part of you alluded to our veterans article, we're just having access to folks like Scott Kirby, Greg Johnson, who know of these search firms, because that's how, you know, that's how they hire people, basically. So, it's been really neat, not only just being able to practice something that we love, but then also be able to talk to really incredible people.   Doug Lindsay  34:53 Yeah, and you hit on that piece of being able to not just talk about it, but kind of share your experiences. They're being able to kind of really understand, you know, at different levels in terms of what it is that they're looking for, what that means, what change management actually looks like in a large organization. Because even though you may not have been at the, at the geo level instituting those challenges you were at the implementation level of much of that change, and, and what that looks like. And I think that gives a different credibility of being able to say, hey, yeah, kind of been there, done that and talk about it that way, whether it's a CFO or industrial or whatever that is, right?   Paul Yang  Absolutely.   Doug Lindsay  34:53 With that in mind, what are some of the challenges or mistakes that you see leaders making today, just kind of curious in what you're seeing, and what you can talk about, and then we'll kind of talk about maybe some more of the effective things on the other side?   Paul Yang  35:45 Maybe it'll be trends, or sometimes things that kind of speak out to us as being on the search side. So, one of the things that I know that if an individual jumps from one company to another company too frequently, and I think that that could be that could mean a lot of things, right? It could mean that an individual was, you know, kind of in an ecosystem of a private equity firm, and they're buying and selling companies and moving from one company to another, which is fine, and you can speak to that. But if it's not in that situation, then it sort of signals that someone maybe hasn't done their full due diligence on an opportunity before, before taking on that role. And so that's something that I would say doesn't usually reflect too positively. And my advice, I think like springing from that would be, it has been, we've talked to plenty of folks that were where this happens, where maybe they land, they find themselves in a situation, or in a company that they might not like or a specific role that they might not like, it doesn't mean that they'd have to leave the company, right? It's not like it doesn't mean that there aren't other things that they can try. And so, my advice from that particular mistake would be see what else is out there within that company. Because the consistency of moving from one, one scope of responsibilities to another within the same company, I think reflects a lot more positively than, hey, I was there for eight months, and I didn't like and I left. A better story would be, I was there for about a year, I wasn't enjoying my job. I tried, I moved here within this part of the company and that's where I really found my passion for x. And then expanding from there…   Alison Yang  37:35 Maybe some other ones that we see, people getting experience outside of their respective functions. So, as they move up within organizations, you know, Paul's got a better example of this with finance, maybe you can go into that.   Paul Yang  37:53 Yeah, so being I think this is just the product of being in the in a functional practice where one is basically talking to a lot of different CFOs and varying in varying different industries, but finding, I think, has this history of maybe being a little bit siloed so, not the case anymore, right? Where you have folks that maybe start out as an accountant, right, or maybe started in a big professional services firm, and they work their way through accounting and audit, etc. I think the best ones are the ones that maybe expand beyond just their specific functions. So, with that, what I mean by that is, maybe this is someone that is that has an accounting background but takes the time to learn other aspects and areas of the business beyond what they see behind the numbers on finance. So in like a manufacturing organization, that would mean getting close to the business, getting close to the manufacturing floor, getting close to the product, and getting close to the product and really understanding, touching, feeling and seeing the product that their business is manufacturing. Because then it really helps that particular individual really translate what the what the numbers they are working through and managing and what that really means to their client or customer base. And those that are being that are better able to speak to that I have found that are the ones that tend to be more operationally oriented, the ones that can speak more about the business and not just finance.   Alison Yang  39:30 Another big mistake that we see maybe the biggest mistake is burning bridges. And you hear that at the Academy, “Never burn a bridge”. With an executive search, we extensively vet people for our clients. So even people that look phenomenal on paper or people who show up to an interview and they have an incredible interview. Great results on paper. If you've if you've got colleagues or peers or bosses that you have, have, you know, have a bad reputation with that, we will find it, we will hear it. And, and so it all comes back to being a person of character, you know, and we see that does burn people sometimes. And you also see things that the mistakes that leaders make when it comes to interviewing for jobs, which is not being prepared, you know, not presenting in a professional manner. We've had people show up late to board meetings and been completely taken off the list as a possible candidate. So, you see all of those things.   Doug Lindsay  40:30 Alison, you had mentioned something about character and being a person of character with that, are you seeing a more interest in that area as you're going through your executive search in terms of not just about what it is that you do, but it's kind of how you're showing up? Because you both mentioned the idea of not being siloed, being broader about that understanding, jumping around kind of the footprints that you're leaving behind? Or are burning bridges, that kind of speaks to that idea of character? So, sounds like that that's resonating more with folks. Is that fair to say?   Alison Yang  41:02 Yes. Absolutely. And I wondered that when I went into corporate America, if we would see these companies that we work with these client companies, you know, would they focus on? Are they looking for people who can just drive results within a company, and I'm telling you, more often than not, we have calls where most of it is, we're looking for someone who knows how to lead people, they're gonna have to come in here and in, you know, do a lot of change management, in some cases, and to revamp the entire team. You hear that quite a lot. And it's also something we really value at Spencer Stuart. At this firm, we screen for character, that's one of our four, the four things we screen for when we assess people. So yes, there's quite an emphasis on it.   Paul Yang  41:50 And it's often, and I would add that when it comes to just pure, I'll just speak about the practice that I'm in, but like pure finance capability, especially in like a public company, right? Like that is it's all public. So, you can see like the public filings, you could look at their 10-K and look at their proxy and see their company performance and ensure that that performance is there. And it's measurable. But more often than not, what we'll find is someone that could be that maybe potentially be a high performer based off of just pure numbers and pure historical performance, will maybe meet members of the board or meet, maybe meet other members of the team in which they'd be working with on a day to day basis. And the feedback would be, “Hey, not someone that we can see ourselves getting along with and working with on a day to day basis. Or not someone I just can feel a connection or something like that”. And that usually just means that they're good, they're good finance professional, or they're good at what they do. But not really sure that this is someone that they would, you know, that would inspire others of the company. And so, to Allison's point, I think at the end of the day, there will always be like an underlying, like baseline of capabilities. But what brings someone to the next level is, is one's character.   Doug Lindsay  43:07 I kind of transitioned this a little bit to the article that you all worked on, where you look at the top CEOs. And you're, that idea of what kind of sets him apart. I know that the article focuses a lot on the kind of the veterans and leadership, but what is it that you're seeing that you're starting to go, “Here are kind of maybe the top three, four, or five things that we're seeing that really make those effective leaders different than everybody else.”?   Alison Yang  43:31 I can talk to the first two, and then Paul can talk to the last three. So, kind of tying into that article, you'll see that I'll just say broad brush. The one thing, and it's what we've talked about most of this podcast, is just interpersonal skills, how much of an importance that that is. And it's not groundbreaking, but it's very real. And it underpins most, if not all other qualities that, you know, that these top performing CEOs all have. And so, the first one that that was also highlighted in the article is a team first mentality. So, it's about as simple as it gets. It's, you know, having a team with you, like, can you bring the team along? Like is the team a part of, the part of your mission and your story? And sometimes when we talk to people, if they're all about themselves, or if they can't describe how their team, you know, how they've impacted their team, or how they brought the team along? You know, it's very obvious and very clear, and it's not. There's a lot of culture change that happens in these organizations. And if you can't have a team first mentality, that won't necessarily happen. So that would be the first one. The second is humility. Being able to understand that you're not the smartest person in the room, but having the strength to make a decision when you need to, but also making sure you're valuing all opinions and doing that so humilities the second one.   Paul Yang  45:01 Another one, this is actually something that Scott Kirby, the CEO of United Airlines, that he had mentioned when we spoke to him as we're working towards our article, but he basically, he talked about how folks that come out of the military have “no quit”. You know, if when we asked him to expand that out, he talked about how, when someone is asked whether or not they're willing to potentially make the ultimate sacrifice for this country, any other ask following that, in and out of the military becomes, I don't want to say easy, but it's going to fall short of it, right? And so, there's this idea of being resilient and understanding how to perform under pressure when there are high stakes. And so I think that would be the key third thing. There are qualities being resilient in tough times, and knowing how to perform under pressure, when the stakes are high, then the next one is maybe stakeholder management. I think it's a very common thing that we would hear both in the military and out of the military, understanding and having the ability to work with a variety of different people. And I think it kind of goes to that point of being broader than just what your function is, understanding what one decision does to the rest of the organization in the organization and how it affects others around others around you. In the military, there's so much like, connectivity between maybe like the squadron or flight or group or wing level that it naturally just happens, but out in the corporate world I think sometimes you can get siloed, when you might not see like the direct translation of how decisions are affected other people. So being able to understand who are the, in both internal and external stakeholders is, is important. I think the fifth one, Allison already talked about the change management. That's, I don't even want to say it's like a, like a common phrase, because it's almost accepted, or it's almost like, what's the phrase I'm looking for here, it's almost like you have to have it. You know, in today's day and age where there is so much change, things are moving faster than ever before, especially with AI and just incredible technologies that are out there. It's a very fast moving world. And so being able to understand that that's happening, and being able to understand how that will how that translates internal to internally to one's organization is important.   Alison Yang  47:39 When it comes to change management as well, one of the key questions we ask are the people we assess is, “Where was the business when you came in?” And, “What have you achieved since then?” So, it's since that where was it? Where is it now? And how did you do it? And so that's one of the ways that we assess for change management.   Doug Lindsay  47:59 What I'm encouraged about is that those are all things that I can get actually better on understanding humility. It may be difficult to kind of step back and do that. But each one of those five are things that I think you can actually get better on, right, you can sit or invest some time in and go, I'm not where I want to be. But I can do that. Is that fair to say?   Paul Yang  48:19 Yes, no one is perfect in any of these areas. It takes practice and it takes time. And often-times, we'd be speaking with folks, or we're on the phone or in a meeting, where we realized someone will maybe have that introspection to look back and say, “Okay, this is an area that I'm not good at, maybe it's team building”. And they maybe they're 15-20 years in their career, and they're like, “You know what, I need more experience building a team. What's an opportunity at this company, in my respective company, where I have the opportunity to do that?”, and then seeking that out and putting it into practice is a key thing of just understanding, maybe it just kind of stems from the humility piece of, I'm not the best at everything. And there's all these areas that I need to improve on. But to your point, Doug, these are all things that that can be practiced in real time.   Doug Lindsay  49:10 As you are assessing them, and as you're looking at it, whether it be from the industrial side, or the CFO, are you finding that these leaders are receptive to the feedback that you're giving them in terms of maybe some of those areas where they're, where they're not where they need to be? Are you seeing an openness and a willingness to lean in and learn about that?   Alison Yang  49:30 It's interesting, you say that, because if when they are open to hearing it, they're showing humility, you know, you assess that just in the way that they interact with you as a person, you know, are they too busy for you? Are they you know, we do often get people ask us questions, you know, “How can I be better?” I mean, you talk to executives all day, you know, what, you know, how can I be better how, you know, what, how do I present myself better, et cetera? I think, you know, if you meet a real stinker then they, it's probably they're probably not going to be as receptive to things like that. But that's just my experience.   Paul Yang  50:08 There are candidates for particular roles. You know, on any given day, there's a there's a high volume, right? So, what that means is not everybody's going to be able to get the job that they that they want. And that's just the fact of life. And so, the ones that come back and say, “Hey, I know I was a finalist, or maybe I wasn't a finalist, what feedback do you have for me? How could I have done better?” Speaking to Allison's point about being having that level are having that ounce of humility to say, “Okay, I didn't get this, but there's got to be a reason why. What are those areas? Is it the team building? Is it, did I not share enough about change management? Did I not, you know, talk about certain results, or maybe it was how I presented myself and showed up to the meeting”. They asked for that feedback. And I think that also has to do with our firm and being in our company, because we have the agency and both our clients and our candidates put that trust in us. And they look to us for that advice. And we'll be transparent a because we have to be because they need it. And it's all about uplifting others and providing the feedback to others so that they can get to where they're trying to go.   Doug Lindsay  51:15 That whole idea of humility, just kind of really resonating. I do a lot of executive coaching and there's a really fundamental difference when someone shows up wanting to learn and you know, “Hey, this is wrong. That, you know, that's not, that's not how I really am”. And so that kind of that humility to be able to sit back and go, “What is this information telling me that's going to help me as a as a leader?”   Paul Yang  51:35 Maybe I'll start by saying if you're currently a cadet working towards graduation, or you're an alumni and already graduated, you, you're likely already a leader, and probably a good one. And so maybe that's like a good baseline to start. But Al and I, we kind of went back and forth thinking about this one and trying to figure out how do we distill both our personal individual personal lives, our combined military experience and our combined experience in the corporate world and executive search. And we thought about a little bit further, and I'll let Al share here.   Alison Yang  52:15 We're a little bit like a broken record here. But the one theme, if we could say, captures all of this is care about people. And if you care about people, your interpersonal skills are likely decent, you have the humility to set yourself aside, you have a leg up on stakeholder management, which enables you to have teams that perform under pressure and operate well through change. And it's also the difference between having people who just get the job done because they have to versus the people who get the job done because they want to. They believe in you. And they believe in the mission. And so, if you are good at caring about people, if you just care about people in general, you'll get there. And that's, that would be our advice.   Doug Lindsay  53:04 If folks want to find out more about what you're doing, or about the article that we referred to in the podcast, where can they go to find out that information?   Paul Yang  53:13 Simply just go to spencerstuart.com. That's our firm's website. It'll clearly outline different intellectual capital pieces that we've written as a firm in the past, and it's historical as well. So, we'll provide insights on certain industries and certain functional areas in terms of trends or things that we see. And then also tell you how our firm is broken down as well. So, if there's a particular industry that you're interested in learning about, it'll point you in the right direction in terms of folks that work in that specific practice, or if you want to reach Alison and I individually to talk to us about the work that we do, feel free to find us on on LinkedIn.   Doug Lindsay  53:55 Thank you all for your insights and the work that you're doing in terms of helping to continue to mold and develop leaders and getting them into the right locations. And we appreciate you being on the long leadership podcast today.   Alison and Paul Yang Thanks so much.   KEYWORDS Academy, leadership, company, Air Force Academy, people, leaders, Alison, speak, championing, talk, work, Paul, executive, day, started, understanding, search, meet, good, knew     The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation     

Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Bradford J. Shwedo '87, uniquely suited to his calling, explains how he leverages lessons from the past to equip present-day warriors to dominate future warfare.    ----more---- SUMMARY A leader of warriors can never over-prepare for potential battle. Lt. Gen. Shwedo, director of USAFA's Institute for Future Conflict, draws on the distant past to teach today's cadets how to lead tomorrow's warriors into 21st century battles and win.   LEARN. ENGAGE. LEAD! Read more about the IFC in the first of a three-part series, Future Focus, in December 2023 Checkpoints! (Pg. 42)         OUR FAVORITE QUOTES IN THIS EPISODE "I saw that the Air Force figured out how to win with what you got. They would figure out a way through leadership to win with what they got." "Leadership is all about working with people, and you've got to understand people." "I work for you, I'm removing your impediments so you can do that, you know, kill the bad guys." "Don't forget who you are. There were there were times when we were shoveling show. I have learned to show up when it's crappy." "My focus had to be the Dean. And the direction comes from the national defense strategy. So we actually have a meeting a week with the futures guys. And that gives us insight."   VIDEO:  BRIEF ON THE IFC TO THE ASSOCIATION OF GRADUATES AND FOUNDATION - 1-11-2024   SHARE THIS EPISODE FACEBOOK  |  LINKEDIN  |  TWITTER  |  EMAIL   CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction and Background 02:24 Early Competitive Streak and Decision to Join Air Force Academy 06:16 Being Open to Opportunities and Trusting the Process 07:38 Preparation and Academic Background 09:30 The Importance of Studying History and Being Prepared 10:56 Leadership Lessons from the West Wing 12:52 The Shift to Special Access Programs and New Ways of Thinking 16:34 Leading in Cyber and Intelligence Operations 17:30 The Decision to Join the Institute for Future Conflict 19:22 Shifting the Focus of Leadership and Academics 20:50 Helping Cadets Understand the Larger System 23:13 Preparing Cadets for the Future Fight 25:43 The Rise of Third Parties in Warfare 26:37 Motivating and Understanding People as a Leader 28:52 Are Leaders Born or Made? 30:19 Lessons in Leadership: Don't Forget Who You Are 31:17 Advice for the Next Generation of Warriors and Leaders 34:07 Leadership is About Working with People 36:21 Final Thoughts and Contact Information   OUR FAVORITE TAKEAWAYS - Leadership is about working with people and understanding what motivates them. - Being open to opportunities and trusting the process can lead to valuable experiences and career paths. - Studying history and being prepared can provide a strong foundation for future challenges. - Leaders must be aware of the changing nature of warfare and the rise of third parties in conflict.   GENERAL SHWEDO'S BIO Lt. Gen. (Ret) Bradford J. Shwedo '87 is the Director, Institute for Future Conflict. Previous to this position, he was the Director for Command, Control, Communications and Computers (C4)/Cyber, Chief Information Officer, Joint Staff, J6, the Pentagon. Lt. Gen. Shwedo has commanded at the detachment, squadron, group, wing and numbered air force levels. During these commands, his units were engaged in direct support to Iraqi Freedom, Enduring Freedom and the greater Global War on Terror providing worldwide Intelligence, Surveillance, Reconnaissance and Cyber operations. He also led an Intelligence Team to Desert Shield/Storm. His last command was 25th Air Force at Joint Base San Antonio-Lackland, Texas, where he led 30,000 personnel in worldwide operations, delivering multisource ISR products, applications, capabilities and resources. When he was the Chief, Information Dominance and Chief Information Officer for the Office of the Secretary of the Air Force, he led four directorates that supported 77,000 personnel and cyber operations across the globe with a portfolio valued at $17 billion. Lt. Gen. Shwedo graduated from the U.S. Air Force Academy in 1987 with a degree in Military History and was also a student athlete, lettering in football. - Copy and image courtesy of www.USAFA.edu LEARN MORE ABOUT THE IFC   ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!        FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Our host is Dr. Doug Lindsay '92  |  Our guest is Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Bradford J. Shwedo '87   Gen. Shwedo  00:01 I saw the Air Force figured out how to win with what you got. They would figure out a way through leadership to win with what they got. They would put us in situations where they would facilitate our positives and negate our negatives. So, when you sit there and go, “Well, you didn't give me X, Y or Z, so we lost.” No, my expectation is we'll work to get what you need. But the expectation is still you win with what you got.   Doug Lindsay  00:55 My guest today is Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Bradford J. Shwedo, USAFA Class of 1987. Gen. Shwedo leads the Air Force Academy's Institute for Future Conflict as its first director. Throughout our conversation, you'll hear us refer to the Institute as the IFC. Gen. Shwedo was named to the position in March 2021 by Academy Superintendent, Gen. Richard Clark. The IFC is preparing cadets to wage and win wars in nontraditional domains. As we progress through our conversation with Gen. Shwedo, you will quickly understand why he was chosen to lead this pioneering institution where future-think informs everything they do. The general graduated from the Academy with a bachelor's in military history while also lettering in football. His career led him into an intelligence space, beginning with an assignment at Goodfellow Air Force Base in Texas in 1989, then Germany and Saudi Arabia. He served as threat manager with the 487th Intelligence Group from 1993 to 1995. He moved to the Pentagon as offensive information warfare chief in 1995. Between 1998 and 2020, he spent time in Korea, several assignments at CIA headquarters in Virginia, at Buckley Air Force base here in Colorado, and several more assignments at the Pentagon. He served in multiple command and leadership positions, and at one point was in charge of four directorates supporting 77,000 personnel, global cyber operations and assets valued at $17 billion. He's a consummate warrior, logistician, strategist and leader. Gen. Shwedo. Welcome to Long Blue Leadership.   Gen. Shwedo  02:33 Thanks so much. The pleasure is mine. Thanks a lot for having me.   Doug Lindsay  02:36 Absolutely. Let's, let's start kind of at the beginning if we if we can.  It seems like from an early age that you had a competitive streak.  Can you talk a little bit behind that background and that upbringing?   Gen. Shwedo  02:48 So, I will tell you, I was very, very pleased when the Air Force came knocking. And it started with football, as you brought up. And I was recruited as a high schooler to come out here and play and I think as what you were talking about my earlier career. I think I'm very much a product of the Academy across the board. It's not just one single piece. And one of the larger ones, though, was football, and quite honestly, and we'll talk about history, because that was very much one and then different comms programs, also big influences, but coming here to play football, it was amazing to me. There were so many great athletes, I wasn't one of them. But it was amazing to me every Saturday, we would go out there and we'd look at these guys that any layman would say there's no way these guys are going to win. And I learned a lot about leadership and a lot about, you know, capabilities and competitions in Falcon stadium. And I saw in Air Force that they figured out how to win with what you got. They would figure out a way through leadership to win with what they got. They would put us in situations as individual athletes, where they would facilitate our positives and negate our negatives on that competitive streak. All that background at Falcon Stadium was priceless. I mean, I learned a lot both playing and coaching on how to do that. And once again, that reflects greatly on the people in the Department of Athletics, who every day have to do exactly what I witnessed. But what a great life lesson for when after you graduate and you're no-lie defending the country. We expect you to win with what you got.    Doug Lindsay It's a no fail mission. Right?   Gen. Shwedo Absolutely. Absolutely. And what a great training ground, you know, to kind of lick your wounds when you didn't get the right lesson. But on game day, I felt like we were always there. We always understood what we needed to do. And we put those people in the right places so we could win that day.   Doug Lindsay 04:49 You realized that as you went through football and as you were coaching and doing that, but before that, when the Academy did come knocking or — what was it that intrigued you about it? Obviously the opportunity to play football… What was your thought process of that whole idea of saying, “I'm gonna go out to Colorado and I'm gonna do that?” And there's that service component as well.   Gen. Shwedo 05:07 I think the one thing that really impressed me about the Air Force Academy, and they still do this: They sell you on the whole program. You know, there are some places where, and I was getting recruited from other schools, where they're just focusing on the football, or whatever. And what I loved about the Air Force Academy was they sold you the whole package. And quite honestly, I encourage cadets when I meet with them to think of this place as a buffet. Because there's lots of things you don't know the Air Force does that is really, really cool. And my biggest problem was, I wanted to do everything. I mean, I wanted to be a pilot, I wanted to be an astronaut. I wanted to be a combat controller, I wanted to be an intelligence officer — I thought all of those things were really cool. And when I tell the cadets, look, “I know what you want to do right now. But think of this place as a buffet, you don't just sit down and eat one sample of those things. And you rapidly find out there's lots of different things that you may want to do.” And that's kind of the way I've been through my career is, you know, wow, that's really cool. Or that I'd like to do that. And [I've] been very lucky to be able to pounce on a lot of those opportunities.   Doug Lindsay 06:15 Being open to the process and kind of trusting the process, that there's something here that we're going to, we're looking out for you. I always thought that was kind of nice in my 22 years that there was always someone there looking out for me, protecting me from myself, so to speak, of, “Hey, you need to go here at this time. And you need to do that.” Even though it wasn't quite the vector I wanted to go, it was still probably the best one at the right time.   Gen. Shwedo 06:38 It is things you do for the team that doesn't always, you know, align with what you want to do. But in the long run was absolutely the right call.   Doug Lindsay 06:47 Right. And you mentioned the team, right. That's something I think that I learned as well, kind of going through this, it felt very much — when I would fail a GR test, it was very much me. But it was always kind of in the context of something larger about the about the team. And that's where that always felt like I was going through it alone. But I really wasn't because there were all these other people around me. No, you're exactly right. What else really resonated that set you up for success when you got on the Academy?   Gen. Shwedo 07:12 You know, on the academic side, I felt well prepared for what I was about to jump into. And, you know, military history for me was exactly what I wanted to do. There's an old Bismarck quote that says, “Only fools learn from their mistakes, wise men, you know, learn from other people's mistakes.” And that's kind of what dragged me to military history, because I was like, you know, there's a lot of life lessons there. And, you know, it was reading that I really enjoyed. Also, within the academics, you know, a long, long time ago, we studied about the Soviet Union, and World War III, and all of those things. And as you said, I went to intel school in '89. But I rapidly found myself in 1990, in Desert Shield, and all of those things that I had studied — because the Iraqis used a lot of the Soviet organize, train and equip structures — I knew what they were doing before. So, I had studied here. So, I felt really well prepared by the time Desert Storm started. And then that started kicking me off, you know, in the right direction,   Doug Lindsay 08:24 I always felt a little unsettled at the Academy, because it was always pulling me to do different things, not just be stuck in my lane, but learn that there are other lanes out there and that I can actually be in that lane and be OK, you know, whether it's academics or military or athletics. And I think there's something to that idea of not just letting people be a little unbalanced, and being comfortable with that in terms of being able to figure out where they need to be or what they need to do. Does that fit in with what you're talking about?   Gen. Shwedo 08:53 You're exactly right. And you know, everybody jokes about the GRs and the quizzes and knowing where you're going to take a hit here and you're gonna focus on that, as I talked about siri, that was not comfortable, but you kind of sucked it up. But first of all, you know, dealing with cadets in this job is the most humbling experience in my life. They're so much smarter than I ever was. And, you know, it's really humbling, and it's an honor to do that. But they fire, you know, evil questions back at you. And it's actually really fun to answer those questions. So, a lot of them will go, you know, “I'm learning all this stuff that's not applicable and blah, blah, blah.” And they'll ask me questions. So, when I was doing cyber, on the joint staff, we have these things called committee meetings and principal committee meetings. And those are either chaired by — the principal is chaired by the president or National Security Council and when you walk in, they are underwhelming conference rooms in the West Wing of the White House, I can assure you, and at a principals committee meeting you have a secretary of defense, the secretary of state, secretary of treasury, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and sometimes when it would come to cyber, or frequencies that you know different election security. They go, “BJ, you take the meeting.” So, I would go and you know, the first time I walked on the West Wing of the White House, it was a significant emotional event. But back to the cadets, I have told them a hundred times, you know, when you go in there, first of all, you better be prepared, you better do all the studies. So, all of these things that we do to cram is not a bad thing. But the next piece is, I've told them numerous times, some of the things that I learned in Colorado Springs carry the day in West Wing discussions, because I remember studying those things, and, “Well, you're forgetting this portion of their history, or you're forgetting this piece.” And often, I'm sure you had it when you were running around, cadets are like, “Oh, when will I ever use this?”   Doug Lindsay 10:54 Surprisingly, actually, you will.   Gen. Shwedo 10:55 I'm embarrassed to tell you, yes, you will.   Doug Lindsay 10:59 Well, so thinking about that idea of being in the West Wing and being there and being tapped to say, hey, you're the guy, you're successful at that point at the highest levels. But at some point, there's that idea that you're the person, right, you're the one that's got to be able to speak and articulate in that way. What was that like the first time that kind of went through that?     Gen. Shwedo 11:18 It's very humbling, you know. First of all, you look down at [your] stars, you're like, where the hell did these come from? Because, because you do still feel like you're a cadet, you know, 24/7. And, honestly, when you walk into these rooms, you know the seriousness of the situation. By that time, you know most of the people around the table, and, you know, you're prepared. They will give you three-ring binders. And I tell the cadets this, I'm like, look, you know, the world is not — and we've had cadets come and they go, you know, “What's all this Hamas, and, you know, Israeli thing?” because our squadron's kind of split. And I go, guys, I go, “I know you're in an academic situation. So, you think things are either right or wrong. But the world is gray.” Talking to the cadets, oh, we went through the history of, you know, the Middle East and all that. And they're kind of drooling, because it's been 20 minutes, and I go, “By the way, that three-ring binder, that's the first tab. And if you haven't read everything in that binder, you're gonna get mauled in this situation.” And I go, you know, the next piece is, and we went back and forth where there wasn't, you know, there were so many grays associated with it, and I go, “Now, when you get up from that conference table, you're gonna walk out, and there will be people waiting to talk about the border, the Ukraine, or they're…,” you know, and it has a conga line of problems that that they deal with every day. And I go, “Oh, by the way, you better be well versed on all of those too.” And, you know, when they see that, it is that transition to, from an academic situation where it's right and wrong, to what we're going to dump them into the grays. And I think they do see, that's where some of these applicable situations that they had in Colorado Springs may come back. Once again, is it a GR quiz, OK, well, a quiz is gonna die, all right there. And I'm not too proud to tell you that speed reading is a good thing. And they will drive you from the river entrance at the Pentagon and drop you off in front of the White House. And by the way, soon as you get back from the White House, there's another meeting waiting for you on another thing that you better be prepared for. So this whole thing, there's a method, I think, to the Academy's madness, throwing all this stuff at you.   Doug Lindsay 13:39 So, you kind of come out as a military history major. So really more, here's what was done to here's what's going on to here's kind of what it looks like in the future. What do you think it was that appealed to you?   Gen. Shwedo 13:55 I was very lucky. And, you know, came out of Desert Storm, and I knew I was too dumb to get a master's on my own. So, they sent me to the Defense Intelligence Agency, and I started seeing some of the new stuff and some of the things that were in the intelligence community. So that job in the 487 Intelligence Group, I was working new bombs, missiles and PGMs. And then they go, there's this new thing, and it's going to be a Special Access Program. You're gonna get into all of those things. And I think what led me to that was I could pass a polygraph. I mean, I grew up in this little town in North Carolina. And you know, the first time I took a polygraph, they said, “Have you done drugs?” No. “Have you done drugs?” No. The guy goes, “Have you done drugs?” No. And he turns off the machine and says, “You've never done drugs.” That's because I'm from Reedsville. We'll get drugs in about 20 or 30 years. But all kidding aside that started getting me down to all the Special Access Programs and every one of them was cooler and cooler and cooler and I had a blast when I worked special programs during 9/11. And when President Bush said, “This is going to be unlike any war you've seen before. A lot of it is going to be in the shadows.” And you won't see what was being done. That's kind of where I was. And what was wonderful because there weren't very many people with those clearances. So, I would usually go straight into the chairman's office and say, “This just came in from the White House, we need to do X, Y or Z.” And he would do that. So then fast forward, we weren't talking about cyber, we just didn't talk about it. I was at the CIA. And they said, “Congratulations, you're going to be a group commander, you're going to transition an intel group into the first attack squadrons for the Air Force.” So that's how I did that. And then I stuck around to be the wing commander. But you know, that realm is just, like you said, lots of excitement, lots of new ways of thinking and doing things. So, I was very, very excited to be able to jump into that at an early age — captain. Really, I will tell you, our airmen are amazing, amazing. And when you start pitching them into a fight that they really appreciate. And sometimes, especially in cyber, when you change a one to a zero, they, the overall group doesn't know what's going on. So, I usually would charge our junior guys to do the math down range. And say, “By the way, when you turn that one to a zero, bad guy X, who wanted to blow himself up in the Mall of America is no longer with us.” And then all of a sudden, everybody walks around with a big bow chest, and they're very proud of what they do. And then it's just starts snowballing. And everybody's doing better and better things. And I tell a story often but, you know, I walked in at 3 o'clock in the morning and there was all kinds of math on … the board, and I go, what's up with all the math and he goes, “Oh, Airman so-and-so figured out how long we go to jail if we did this on the outside.” Now, of course, everybody's kidding. But I'd be you know, those are those airmen that that are just rockstars, and you're so proud to be around them. And just like I was telling you about football, I wasn't the athlete, we had a bunch of rockstars I ran around with. And it was just a lot of fun to be a part of that organization.   Doug Lindsay 17:27 You're like, tailor made for your role right now. It seems like everything kind of fit into your ability and where you're at right now to be at the IFC. So, when, you know, the folks approach you, Kaminsky and Fox, and those folks approached you, what was it about this one that really made you say, “Yeah, that's where I want to go?”   Gen. Shwedo 17:49 So, I will tell you, you know, relationships matter. And you know, we have brothers and sisters across, you know, this place. So, and you know, when you call somebody a brother or sister, you may not mean it. Most of the people I run around with really do mean it. So, I got a phone call from Gen. Clark, who was a teammate of mine. And he was also in seventh squadron with me. So, we've known each other for very long time. I was still on active duty. And he goes, “Hey, brother, I need a favor.” And I'm like, “Sure, brother, whatever you need.” Don't answer the phone like that. Doesn't work well. But all kidding aside, he, you know, he said, because he and I have known each other he goes exactly what you said, “Hey, I'm looking at all the things you did, and what they want to do. This makes all the sense in the world.” And, you know, really, the major reason I came was a brother asked me to do something, and I'd do anything for him.   Doug Lindsay 18:50 But what the IFC is doing is it's changing our mental model, right? It's out of those traditional ways. We think about academics, how we prepare leaders, we're taking a little bit of different approach there. So, what's that been like helping the Academy transition to that new mindset?   Gen. Shwedo 19:08 My focus had to be the dean. And the direction comes from the national defense strategy. So, we actually have a meeting a week with the future guys. And that gives us insight. But then going back and figuring out what we're going to put into the curriculum. We did a curriculum review as soon as we got here. And I was joking, and I said, “OK, everybody knows Word products. We're going to do a universal insert, delete, every time you see ISIS and Al Qaeda, they'll say Russia and China.” But all kidding aside, that was kind of where we started rooting out some of the problems as we did. If I'd had a dean that didn't agree or believe, we'd be done a long time ago, but she's been wonderful. Gen. Clark has been awesome, you know, facilitating all of this. And because we can go classified or do anything else, it really starts, as you said, shifting the focus. And saying there is a reason why the Air Force Academy is different than an ROTC unit or a regular, you know, OTs or whatever, we're going to ingrain that across the board. This is basically teaching them, “You're a part of a much bigger, you know, orchestration. And, boy, it's a different way of thinking, but definitely gives you insight into how to do different things, you know, thinking two or three layers above when you're just in a cockpit.” “I don't understand why I'm doing this.” But two or three layers above, “I totally get it. Now I understand it.”   Doug Lindsay 20:41 Well, and helping people see that connectedness to the larger system, right? So, it not it may seem like I'm an independent person doing this, right. But as part of that larger system and…   Gen. Shwedo 20:49 I still want you to independently be padlocked on that target and do all of that. But as opposed to grumbling, “I don't understand why I'm doing this,” or the urgency of me … doing this from the way that they're telling me…,” it totally makes larger sense, as opposed to shut up and do it. We're Americans, we challenge everything. And honestly, I think that's what gives us the advantage over China or something else. We question everything. That's not necessarily bad.   Doug Lindsay 21:18 Yeah, that's right. Within context, right? That's right. So, what's it like from a leadership standpoint? Obviously, at the highest levels, this one's a little bit different, maybe some more influence? Sure, more of those dotted lines and things? What's it been like to lead that organization through, from the beginning to where it is now, from the big idea to a concept?   Gen. Shwedo 21:40 I really am not looking to take credit for anything. So, whenever a future conflict thing comes off, we may have pulled lots of strings, but whoever's carrying it out or is involved, we try to push it, and we'll look at what they did, because that makes the better team and, you know, sometimes I wince a little bit when they go, “Well, the IFC did this.” Well, actually, a lot of people did. And when people go, “Well, you know, who is in the IFC? Who's studying under the IFC?” Well, as I said, all three mission areas. Well, when did the IFC does well, I mentioned Firstie Flag. Well, actually, that's not mine, that's the Commandant's. We've helped out. But it's common. It's an outstanding job. And I would never say, “Look at what the IFC did.” But when you look at all of these different things, where we'll bring speakers in somebody else, or will fund, you know, some conference, you know, the donors may say, “Hey, BJ, what are you doing, you know, with this money?” I can show them that it absolutely forwarded the future fight. It's giving the cadets great insight on that future fight. But somebody else may walk in and go, “But that was my conference.” And I will say you're exactly right. And we are very proud.   Doug Lindsay 22:57 Obviously, we're sending out people who are competent in certain domains as an academic institution as well. But from a leadership standpoint, where are you seeing the value of the efforts of what IFC and the larger team is doing on helping cadets understand their leadership and their role in leading that effort moving forward?   Gen. Shwedo 23:16 There's several things with that. So, the first piece is making them aware of the threat. And you know, the dean has introduced me and said, “This is BJ. Gen. Shwedo, he's making evil minds.” And I'm here to tell you that the evil minds already exist. What we gotta do is make them aware of the environment we're dumping them in. And a case in point, I have one cadet, he raises his hands like, “You know, hypersonic missiles. I don't understand what's the big deal about that.” And I go,” OK, well, first of all, yes, they're fast. But as you remember from Physics 110 a ballistic missile trajectory is all mathematics. That's how the Patriot works. Hypersonic missiles can maneuver. So, all your math is now dead.” And I go, “Oh, by the way, when you look down-range and you see all those antennas, NORAD, for the most part was looking up to the north, because the quickest way to get an ICBM to the United States was over the top. You can actually take a hypersonic missile, put it in a low earth orbit, and that attack will come out of Antarctica.” Same cadet immediately raises his hand and goes, “So the maneuvering — is that RF, command guide?” And he's immediately trying to get into it. And I'm like, I love you, man. Because, honestly, when you start making them aware of the threats, they immediately start thinking countermeasures. So, from the leadership standpoint, they understand that piece, another thing we're teaching them is, and it's a snarky way of saying it, but forget cylinders of excellence — and cylinders of excellence during the global war on terrorism. We could show up in one cylinder of excellence like I told you about the Predator, the Reaper, fire that missile, declare victory and go home. If we're going to fight a great power competition or whatever, we are going to be in that situation where we need air, land, sea, space, cyber all showing up. So, break down the cylinders. And then the last part of this great power competition: We need to keep it at competition and not get to conflict. For the most part, we've been stuck at bombs, bullets and beans in the spectrum of conflict. This is competition down here. This is conflict over here. And what we're teaching the cadets is no, you got to participate across the board. And it may be heavy, more in cyber or information operations. But you're going to use those tools all the way across the spectrum. But I really don't think our citizenry is ready for great power conflict. They're so used to us running up the score to a hundred to nothing that they don't understand what that is. And the Russians and Chinese on the competition scale, had been running unopposed because we have been padlocked on ISIS and Al Qaeda. So, we're resetting their awareness. So, when they are future leaders, they make those impacts on the lower level. So, we just like I told you at the beginning, we never got to World War III.   Doug Lindsay 26:14 A lot of impact in a short amount of time. What are you hearing, even anecdotally from them about that experience and that mindset and that ability to play at that level?   Gen. Shwedo 26:23 A kid that walks up to me goes, “Sir, I had no idea my country does this, but I want to do it really badly.” You energize that excitement, and then they come back and start telling all of these friends, I mean, you know, when I came here, I knew we were doing cool stuff, but being able to come back and see all of those things. Boy, that makes me want to study more that makes me want to get even better at whatever that buffet, right, that I want to do, it is — and it's just one more thing that energizes me to make sure that I get it right.   Doug Lindsay 26:56 When you put energized, passionate, excited cadets together, and you start talking about the ability to solve complex problems and have an influence…   Gen. Shwedo 27:05 So, I used to call them evil bar-napkins. They come up with, you know, these great ideas. And it is humbling, because they, you know, they grew up a different way than I did. That's probably a lot more applicable to that future fight. And that is why so many people come to these guys. And that's why our research department gets so much money, because they want to drag these guys in. I think we have more opportunities than we have cadets for research. Because they're so in demand, people understand how smart they are.   Doug Lindsay 27:38 If Gen. Shwedo was Cadet Shwedo going through the Academy right now, knowing what you know in terms of your trajectory and what you've learned over your time, and then knowing the opportunities that exist in the IFC, what would you tell yourself to think about as you're going through this process, if you got off the bus this summer to start all over?   Gen. Shwedo 27:59 I would look up and say, “You're very lucky. It's going to, they're going to be times it's just going to suck. You better be ready for that. But I will tell you it's worth the fight.” You know, I've seen and done very, very cool things that people will not know about for a very long time. And then the last part is because I just got off the bus and my head shaved, and I'm pissed off at everybody, “Suck it up. It's, it's worth the price of admission. But when you get out, honestly, all of this training all of this, you know, experiences preps you for those future opportunities.”   Doug Lindsay 28:35 So, Gen. Shwedo, as a student of military history, and a teacher of leadership, and there's a question that we often like to ask just based on people's experience, are, in your opinion, are leaders born or are they made?   Gen. Shwedo 28:47 You know, it's funny, I often get the question, you know, “Hey, is there a book that you really advocate for leadership?” And I just kind of smile and go, “Look, leadership,” just like I was telling you with the coaching and all that other stuff, “leadership is all about working with people. And you've got to understand people. And it's a little more work than that.” Just like you said, I need to find the positives, I need to see what you as a person excites you, what motivates you. And then when I was telling you facilitate the positives and negate the negatives, and I believe, … people are born with the capability to get to know you a lot better, but it does come back to motivating you and finding where I can put you in that situation, that you're going to excel just like we were talking about earlier, and then keep you out of those situations where you may not perform. That is kind of the one-on-one leadership. Well, it's more of a pyramid organization by design. So, you find leaders that also go along those lines and then when I have a problem, I go down that pyramid along those lines. But I think it's, it would be pretty sad if you're either a leader or not. I do believe that if you're not very good at figuring out people, etc, you can eventually learn that. But it is easier for some than others. That's kind of it. Leadership is definitely motivating people and understanding what motivates [them]. You know, Patton used to say, “I don't measure the merits of my company commanders by the calluses on their ass.” And what you are saying is, “Get out.” And you do need to get out there and you know, motivate, understand, talk to the folks and for, you know, here and everywhere else, because our airmen are so amazing. It's actually one of the best parts of the day. And some of these guys are just denying them that opportunity.   Doug Lindsay 30:53 And within the context of warfare, obviously, you've mentioned this earlier, that we've seen the world change and conflict in the 21st century doesn't take place in what we think in traditional areas, like the battlefield. So, what advice would you like to offer the generation coming up behind you and us that, who want to be warriors, that maybe want to join the Long Blue Line and, and want to become leaders for the…?   Gen. Shwedo 31:17 …Future fight? I will tell you, you know, fundamentally, as I said before, it's a lot different than global war on terrorism, and you know, some of these other pieces, but what I'm seeing, especially with technologies, is the rise of the third parties. So, when it comes to cyber, we've watched the Ukraine, where these third-party cyber gangs, are now playing. And you know, when you look at the Russian cyber capability, where the Russian government stops, and the Russian mafia begins, is not a real good, fine line. And we're seeing some of these guys pitch into the fights. When I'm talking to the cadets. I'm like, “You can ignore this, but you'll do it at your own peril.” And more disconcerting, a lot of these well-intentioned people that may think that they're helping the fight, there was one report where they had gotten into the space systems of the Russians. And they had the ability to turn off the satellites. Well, in a nuclear scenario in first strike, making your adversary blind before you do that is a precursor. And sometimes countries don't want their missiles stuck in holes. So, when they start seeing all of those warnings go, they launch in the other direction. So, these well-intentioned people could cook off a much larger campaign. So, I tell the cadets that you cannot ignore these capabilities. Another one is drones. I mean, Richard Clark, who was the previous SOCOM commander, quite rightly pointed out that a bomb has not fallen on U.S. troops since 1953. These drones that we're seeing, and, you know, they are blowing up tanks, they have pushed the Black Sea Fleet out of port. You know, we've seen all of this. And fundamentally, you're going, “Okay, how do we counter that?” And can we promise that a bomb will not fall on there with F-22s and F-35s. Back to those evil minds, they start looking on those countermeasures, but we're dumping them fundamentally in a much different environment than what their teachers fought in the global war on terrorism. So, we've got to equip them with all of those capabilities. And then the last part were those drone drivers. And the cyber folks. They may not look like a battle dress uniform, they may look, you know, like somebody, and oh, by the way, they probably can't run, you know, the 2-mile run or anything like that. But they're still effective on the battlefield. And you need to understand that when we go forward.   Doug Lindsay 33:52 You've led at different levels. You've obviously learned a lot of lessons along the way. What are some of the, maybe a couple key takeaways you've learned about leadership?   Gen. Shwedo 34:00 I think the lesson is, don't forget who you are. You know, I wasn't born a general. I very much was scrubbing toilets, you know, up on the Hill. And I think going back to don't forget who you are, and being able to, you know, hey, there were there were times when we were shoveling snow. I have learned, you know, back to getting to know that your people show up when it's crappy. Don't show up only when it is convenient for you. But you showed that hey, I love you because I'll show up. And it really is: Never forget who you are. I mean, you know, you sure as hell wouldn't get that vote when you were second lieutenant. So, it's not going to change your life too much. And I think people understand when you really care about them, you know, and if you care about them, they'll do what you know, whatever needs to be done. And the last part is my airmen used to roll their eyes. Of course, you were on the hook for the vision and for the battle plan. But as I said before, these are amazing airmen, and they will do whatever needs to be done to win that fight. But I'd often tell them when they were, you know, struggling, “Look, I work for you, I'm removing your impediments so you can do that, you know, kill the bad guys.” And you know, I've made a career out of playing practical jokes on bad guys, because these guys were really good at it. But when I'd say, “I work for you…” they roll their eyes. But eventually they understood that if there wasn't enough gas here, if there wasn't, remove those impediments, so they can do that. And so that was something that I did as a lieutenant, captain, I've been pretty good at it, you know, up to this point.   Doug Lindsay 35:38 So, and it really helps that value proposition, they feel like they really are part of a team. Now, do they matter regardless of the, of the level of the organization?   Gen. Shwedo 35:45 Absolutely. And, you know, to understand and, you know, the military, on the Army side, you know, the leaders eat last. I've got numerous Army brothers; I don't like talking about it. But all kidding aside, there's a lesson there. And you know, be humble and understand that you really do work for those guys, because they are doing the mission. And once you do that, and once they understand that they no-lie will remove those impediments and, no-lie, they do care about you, you'll be amazed what kind of feats that you'll see happen on the other end.   Doug Lindsay 36:19 Well, thank you for that. Any final thoughts or anything we didn't talk about that you want to talk about?   Gen. Shwedo 36:23 No, I can't thank you guys enough for the opportunity and, you know, asking about the Institute for Future Conflict. Honestly, everything they've done has nothing to do with me and everything to do with this command team here because they have given me all the opportunities. From Gen. Clark, the Dean, the, you know, the comm and the Department of Athletics and people kind of have a furrowed brow. Yes, we have, we have a focus on the Department of Athletics, too. So, thanks for the opportunity so I can share with you with all the great things they're doing to make our cadets ready for that future fight.   Doug Lindsay 36:55 Appreciate that. And appreciate your example and what you're doing with that. If people want to connect with you or get in touch with the IFC and find out kind of what's going on, what's the best way for them?   Gen. Shwedo 37:04 Absolutely. So, if you just Google Institute for Future Conflict, it'll come up. And then on the bottom, you'll see a couple of lieutenant's names. Luckily, and I tease them all the time — I compare and contrast me, coaching, football and teaching boxing and unarmed combat and you're getting two different worlds. But they often are the ones that we tease them and go, they're the real bosses of the IFC, they'll get back to us on what we need to do or to answer questions or anything along those lines.   Doug Lindsay 37:34 That's great. And I know that Checkpoints magazine has a three-part series that's coming out that kind of amplifies some of the people and some of the team members that you built on there that you mentioned as well today. Looking forward to that.   Gen. Shwedo 37:46 So lastly, there's not that many Shwedo's in the globe — you can find me fairly quickly.   Doug Lindsay 37:48 That's great. Well, we thank you for your time. Thank you for your legacy. Thank you for all that you're doing for the Academy.   Gen. Shwedo 37:55 Thanks for the opportunity. Thanks a lot.   KEYWORDS cadets, leadership, Air Force Academy, cyber, IFC, learned, Academy, warfare, conflict, 21st century, understand, opportunity, missiles, led, future, football, Air Force, airmen, work, leaders, studied, history, West Wing     The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation