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As a property manager, you're familiar with the uncomfortable shuffle when trying to ensure utilities are set up correctly at move-in. What if you could make the whole process easier? In this episode of the Property Management Growth Show, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with the founder of Utility Profit, Zac Maurais, to discuss wires, pipes, and signals: Everything you wish you knew about home utilities. You'll Learn [01:48] How Zac Built a $100 Million Business [07:38] Solving Utility Challenges with a Streamlined Tool [15:54] Using Utility Profit to Make Extra Profit [23:26] Integrations and Frequently Asked Questions [30:20] Take Action on The Things You're Avoiding! Quotables “I think the secret to being smart is just being willing to look stupid.” “Done is better than perfect.” “Have a bias for action. Get your hands dirty. Do it yourself.” “ Whatever it is that you think that's holding you back, just start trying to do it.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Zac: It's almost like we're like taking the Yellow Pages and then putting it online or something. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a wacky problem that we're solving there.  [00:00:08] Jason: So you're single handedly bringing the utility space into the future. So, All right. [00:00:16] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Property Managers to the Property Management Growth Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur and you want to add doors, you want to make a difference, you want to increase revenue, you want to help others, you want to impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager and you just don't know it. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. [00:00:47] Jason: You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. [00:01:13] Jason: I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show and I'm hanging out today with Zac Maurais. Did I say it right?  [00:01:25] Jason: That's right, yes.  [00:01:26] Jason: Hey. All right, cool. It's great to have you on the show. So Zac we're going to be chatting today about wires, pipes, and signals, everything you wish you knew about home utilities. [00:01:38] Jason: I think this will be interesting to our listeners because, you know, we get into this stuff as property management people. So, so Zac before we get into that though, give us a little backstory on you. How'd you get into being an entrepreneur? When did you first figure that out, that you maybe were one and then we can get into why you started this business so that you've got going and tell us, tell everybody about it. [00:01:58] Jason: Cool.  [00:02:00] Zac: Let's do it. Yeah. So, quick intro myself, I live here in Austin, Texas. I've been an entrepreneur now for better part of a decade and a half. Right out of college I started a business it was actually a food delivery business called Favor. We ended up scaling that business to having 50,000 delivery drivers in the state of Texas. [00:02:22] Zac: So it was the second largest employer in the state. And over the course of building it up over a couple of years, we were doing over a hundred million dollars of food sales a year. So sizable company and we sold that to HEB grocery and yeah.  [00:02:38] Jason: And if people don't know, HEB I'm in the Austin area, I'm up in Round Rock. [00:02:41] Jason: But if people don't know HEB. HEB consistently wins the best grocery store awards like in America every year. Like it's always winning.  [00:02:51] Zac: It's kind of amazing. I mean, they are an institution. There's so many small towns across Texas where the only show in town, I would kind of say it's akin to like a Walmart or something like that for a national brand that people would be more familiar with. [00:03:04] Zac: Family run business, been around for a hundred years. So it's cool that it had joined forces with Favor. And learned a lot from doing that company. I mean, at the time that we sold it, we had over 140 corporate employees, designers and software engineers and business intelligence people and salespeople. [00:03:24] Zac: So I'm right there with you, Jason, where I like growth. I like growing things and learning about business and learning about new categories. So as I sold it, I was looking for the next thing to do.  [00:03:35] Jason: So people are clear, Favor, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but Favor competes with like Instacart and like some of these, it's like a delivery service. [00:03:44] Zac: That's right. So the way that the service worked was, it was like an on demand. It was part of the on demand delivery kind of thing that was happening. The gig economy, you know, people will probably remember Lyft coming out and Uber. There wasn't one for delivery of kind of like fast casual food or groceries yet. [00:04:02] Zac: And we brought that into the market. We had first mover.  [00:04:05] Jason: Oh yeah. So yeah, it's kind of like Uber Eats and, you know, these kind of things.  [00:04:08] Zac: Exactly. So you could tap a button, request a Favor, and then someone would go shopping for you, go pick up some tacos or yeah, run at the grocery store or something like that and bring it to you in 45 minutes or less. [00:04:20] Jason: Got it. And is Favor just a Texas thing?  [00:04:23] Zac: At one point in time we tried to go national expansion, but it was a bit of a wartime thing that was going on. Yeah. A lot of VC dollars getting put in. And we had a very strong Texas brand. We had over a million people in Texas using it. [00:04:37] Zac: Yes. So we said we just doubled down on home base.  [00:04:40] Jason: I mean, Texas is like its own little universe. We've got Favor, we've got HEB, we've got, you know, there's all these things that are just specifically Texas. So if y'all come to Texas, you got to like experience the whole Texas deal. You got to go to an HEB, you got to go to Bucky's, you got to go to all these things, right? [00:04:56] Zac: So yeah, right. When you're here in town for Jason's event, go get yourself some Yeti swag.  [00:05:02] Jason: Yes.  [00:05:02] Zac: And then order yourself a Favor.  [00:05:04] Jason: Yes. There you go. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, and people get really religious about their, you know, things like Yeti. It's like Yeti Mecca. Like people, like my brother-in-law comes into town. He is like, "I got to go to the Yeti store." He's like, just like starry-eyed in there. And I'm like, "why? Why?" Coolers, thermases? I don't know. Cool drinks. Yeah. Yeah. It's a thing. So he like collects them, and then sometimes he's flipping them too. Like there's limited edition things, so. My brother-in-law's name is Jason also, so he might listen to this. [00:05:36] Jason: So Jason, I mentioned you on my podcast, so, all right.  [00:05:39] Jason: Shout out to Jason.  [00:05:41] Jason: Shout out to Jason. So, cool. So Zac, I mean, that's a pretty impressive thing. Not many people can say they built a hundred million dollar, you know, business or had an exit or something like that. So, and then what did you do next? [00:05:55] Jason: Like, you sell this thing, did you lose all meaning and purpose in life and decide to start a new business or what happened?  [00:06:01] Zac: I think that happens with some people, right? You sell it, you have somebody, you're like, "what am I going to do with my life now?" I'm going to take a good thing and somehow it becomes a bad thing. [00:06:09] Zac: But I just, I really like building. And I like the process of entrepreneurship where you talk to people, you try to find a problem and you like go hit a whiteboard, you sketch, it becomes more tangible, and then all of a sudden you can partner with an engineer and make it and then bring it back to the customer. [00:06:26] Zac: And I just like that. It kind of just scratches something in my brain, I think. And something else that's been cool for me on my entrepreneurship journey. I had mentioned that I've been doing it now for a decade and a half and the entire time that I've been working and doing startups, I've been doing it with like my best friend Ben from growing up together. [00:06:45] Zac: We  [00:06:46] Jason: best friend Ben.  [00:06:46] Zac: wen to school in New Hampshire. And it's fun to be able to go on that journey with someone like that.  [00:06:52] Jason: Yeah. That's cool. So you and Ben are still doing stuff together then.  [00:06:55] Zac: Right.  [00:06:56] Jason: Yeah. Third company.  [00:06:57] Zac: Third company now, so.  [00:06:59] Jason: Yeah. Dynamic duo. All right. And so I imagine that you have some complimentary sort of skill sets and challenge each other a bit. [00:07:08] Zac: Yeah, I think our brains have kind of been swapped and became more of the same brain. But the way that I explained it originally was like Ben was the left brain engineer, right? He is going to build out the backend database. He was a civil engineer, so he was just constantly doing math. And then I was more of the, you can kind of see there's some paintings behind me, like I was the artist.  [00:07:30] Jason: The right brain guy. Yeah. Got it.  [00:07:32] Zac: But now it just kind of became one, somewhere between now. He kind of went a little bit more right. I went more left, so.  [00:07:38] Jason: Cool. So bring us up towards the present day. So like, what are you and Ben, you know, getting together and working on? [00:07:45] Zac: Yeah, so I guess the way that we got into the property management industry was we were trying to build some leasing automation tech over the last few years. We had something called Sunroom Leasing, and it was like a platform that would help. With self showings, with different things related to collecting some data from renters about the home. [00:08:05] Zac: We had at one point in time, around 8,000 homes that were leasing across the country for some real estate investment trusts and some large scale property managers. And it kind of turned us on to this like, it had some challenges I think of that scale. And so we ended up realizing that's not what we want to do long term. [00:08:26] Zac: And something that it was like a good ride, but I think we were onto something that could be more scalable and a more acute problem to solve.  [00:08:35] Jason: Yeah, this was like a tuition business. You're learning and paying the price of tuition. Yeah. So you got familiar with the property management industry a bit through that. [00:08:44] Jason: That's right. Figured out kind of your target audience and you probably started to see some different problems you like started scheming with your whiteboard on, so.  [00:08:52] Zac: Yeah, and the problem that we zoomed into was around utility setup. And what we thought was kind of a silly thing was, here it is, it's 2024. [00:09:01] Zac: This was last year that we had launched it. We realized that there wasn't like a Google Maps of utilities. We thought it was silly that you couldn't just type in an address online and then see what's the water, what's the electric, what's the gas, what's the internet? There was no transparency for that. [00:09:20] Zac: And when we looked closer, there's like, you zoom in on water, there's over 20,000 water providers and they have really weird setups, you know, or it could be down just by the neighborhood or the zip code or the, you know, it's just wacky the way that the mapping works. And we thought if we could build out the whole mapping infrastructure, that would be a valuable thing, both for owners of the property that just want to have a more streamlined process, property managers that are doing it every day, and then renters. If you kind of think of this problem of setting up utilities while it's annoying and they have to Google around and make a bunch of phone calls, this is just one problem within a whole, you know, iceberg of other things. It's just the tip, small thing that they're doing a ton of things related to the move. We thought that if we could streamline this, then it could have a broad appeal and be something that we could do nationally and do at a big scale. So, over the last year, what we've done is we've built out that infrastructure to be able to do mapping at scale. [00:10:21] Zac: And we have built a platform that streamlines the process of turning on utilities. We're trying to make the utility on switch and it's a cool tool because the property managers using it can get confirmation that utilities have been set up correctly. And this is helpful for them because, you know, if you don't turn on the electricity and it's the dead of winter, you're probably going to have some problems on your hands with pipes bursting, you know, and things like that. [00:10:48] Zac: So, it's a useful tool in the process.  [00:10:51] Jason: So let's talk about this problem, right? This is super annoying. Like everybody that's moved has had to figure out this weird, you know, puzzle to like, which utility providers are available here? Which internet provider can I use? What are my options? Can I get this cool fiber, you know, thing, can I get this? Is there..? Like what's available? Then they're trying to figure out like water, electric. You're maybe trying to find out from the previous owner or somebody and you're trying to like negotiate all this and then like getting things switched and then the timelines like it's a mess. [00:11:25] Jason: Like it's really annoying and yeah, it's like why do we just deal with this and put up with this? We're living in the age of AI and this AI revolution now and. Why isn't there a better solution to this? It seems like it's just like chaos and confusion. Yeah, so.  [00:11:45] Zac: It is chaos and confusion. Yeah. And people waste so much time doing it and oh god. [00:11:50] Zac: Yeah. And I think as a result, like sometimes people will just make sacrifices where they'll be like, well, I was on this telecom company before. Maybe I'll just go back to them. And then I might miss out on being able to be like, well, I could have had faster internet or a better plan that's cheaper or something If they had just...  [00:12:07] Jason: sure. Yeah.  [00:12:07] Zac: ...known that they had options.  [00:12:10] Jason: Right. You're like, man, I'm still using dial up. And I didn't realize Google Fiber was available here. Yeah, right.  [00:12:15] Zac: Throwing that in an old AOL like.  [00:12:18] Jason: Yes, I remember those days. I was such a nerd. Alright, so yeah, and people may maybe get impatient and they just make some quick decisions. [00:12:27] Jason: You know, and all these companies try to give them incentives like, Hey, if you move, like we'll move it and help you get it set up. And they try to make it seamless, but because they're trying to retain their, you know, the customer, but that might not be in the best interest of the customer.  [00:12:41] Zac: Totally. Yeah. So this we're in the spirit of trying to add transparency into the process, make it more streamlined. And and have a really lightweight tool like, you know, not another app you have to download, but just something that seamlessly fits in the move in process. Okay. [00:12:55] Zac: Integrates really well with the tools that the property manager is already using, you know, just is able to sync, in real time, figure out what are the addresses coming up, and then give the property manager a way to both communicate what the utilities are and then check that they've been turned on. [00:13:16] Zac: And then interestingly, there's a lot of places in the US where these telecom companies are competing. And they spent a lot of money to lay down these fiber optic lines, you know, or copper lines, and they're trying to recoup some of that cost. Yeah. And so they'll pay money for more customers. [00:13:35] Zac: And so we're able to generate revenue and then share that with property managers as an incentive to use the tool.  [00:13:43] Jason: Okay, cool. So what's the name of the tool or this service?  [00:13:46] Zac: It's called Utility Profit.  [00:13:48] Jason: Utility profit. Okay. All right. And it's P-R-O-F-I-T I would assume? Yep, exactly. Not like you're prophesying. [00:13:57] Jason: All right, got it. So Utility Profit, and so this really is solving that challenge to just streamline all that, and there's a financial incentive or benefit for the property manager helping to get these things connected.  [00:14:11] Zac: That's right. That's right. Yeah. And one of the...  [00:14:14] Jason: Win, win, win all the way around win. [00:14:15] Zac: Yeah, exactly. And that's the best type of tool. You know, something that it doesn't just benefit one party, but all the people involved. Yeah. And so, you know, it's exciting there. Now there's people across the entire United States using it. We've been helping thousands of renters per month. [00:14:32] Zac: Just in the last year there's been, I think over 750 property managers using it. Some really big ones with thousands of properties all the way down to people that just have a couple homes in the portfolio. I think the average has about 400 homes and, you know, it's really kind of empowering that we bring something to the world and that fast that many people are using it. [00:14:55] Zac: It's cool to see.  [00:14:56] Jason: Yeah. Cool. So. And Ben's leading the nerds on the team making this all work.  [00:15:02] Zac: Yeah, we're both working closely with engineers and, I mean, it's been a big lift. I mean, we've had to do all sorts of wacky things to be able to like get this data because like I said, it didn't exist. [00:15:12] Zac: I imagine. [00:15:13] Zac: We have to like literally go and draw service maps, you know, that were PDFs on old websites and then, you know, turn them into a structured database. Right. I, you know, pull it up correctly. Yeah.  [00:15:26] Jason: You're just doing this ground level legwork to like get... it's almost like you're transferring old records into a digital format. [00:15:35] Jason: You know? Yeah. So that people could play their MP3s or something. Yeah.  [00:15:38] Zac: It kind of feels like that. It's almost like we're like taking the Yellow Pages and then putting it online or something. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a wacky problem that we're solving there.  [00:15:48] Jason: So you're single handedly bringing the utility space into the future, so.  [00:15:54] Zac: Yeah. And one thing that we've we've been doing over the last couple months that I think is pretty cool is that there's this whole industry that exists for the multifamily apartment space related to what they call as like fiber as an amenity or fiber to the home. [00:16:11] Zac: Yeah. And so the way it would work on multifamily would be, you know, these big telecoms would say, "Hey, we'll sell you a thousand units of internet and then we'll give you a discount for doing so. And then you can either kind of keep that for yourself or you can, you know, share that with your tenants as a way to help your apartments stand out from other apartments." [00:16:33] Zac: The apartments are i identifiable and also you know, easier for the telecoms to spot. The hard thing about homes is it's this long tail of properties and there hasn't been a good way to aggregate them. I think over the last few years there's been some, you know, real estate investment trusts that have got to scale. [00:16:54] Zac: And so it kind of got these telecom companies thinking, "Hey, maybe I should go you know, sell into this market, see if we can apply the same principles of this program from apartments to single family." But it hasn't yet been done at any sort of significant scale. It's kind of a new concept. Now that we have hundreds of thousands of homes, that we are effectively the on switch for, we're helping to source these deals. [00:17:20] Zac: And we're able to bring, you know, significant discount from retail pricing to property managers and consumers. So we we're adding that as a new program that we're doing. We're calling it like Fiber Ready Homes. So it's a cool thing because we can help property managers identify what portion of their portfolio has the underlying technology at the home to have, you know, hyper fast internet speeds. [00:17:47] Zac: Yeah. And then do all of the enrollment process and the billing process to be able to offer a program like this. And and it's pretty gnarly. Like the average property manager that will turn on this program can make tens of thousands of dollars a year. It's roughly $10 per month per door. [00:18:04] Zac: So if you're a 300 door property manager, this is about $18,000. 18,000 per year that you'd be able to generate. And just, you know, kind of free cash flows for enabling something that the renters want.  [00:18:18] Jason: Right. Just making more money and yeah, I mean, high speed internet also being able to bring that to your units. [00:18:26] Jason: It creates a bigger incentive for people to rent it. I mean, it's definitely something I research before I buy a home or move anywhere. I'm always like, what Internet's available there because my life is going to be happening through this. And a lot of more people working from home, especially since Covid. [00:18:41] Zac: True. Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I think a lot of renters see internet more important than running water in some ways. I mean, it's like everyone's on Netflix and doing work from home calls. You know, it's just, it's super important for renters.  [00:18:55] Jason: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's interesting. And it sucks though when you like if you rent somewhere and that you only have one option and it's not the option that you really want in that area because sometimes they've negotiated like, oh, it's Comcast cable or something like this, and it's low speed or whatever. [00:19:11] Zac: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Sometimes you're kind of limited by what lines have been laid, and sometimes there's limited options, but it's cool because now we have these two programs. We have one, which is that one I just explained, and then we have a second one. We call it like a marketplace. So it'll truly show you everything that's available, every single company, every single speed all the details of it and help to facilitate just being able to turn it on a lot easier. [00:19:34] Jason: Got it. How does this work? Like a property manager gets set up in your system, they've got their properties, you know, in this, and then they can figure out the tenants when they're onboarding a new tenant, they're like, "Hey, before we give you keys and move you in, we want to make sure utilities are getting moved over." [00:19:49] Jason: So you help streamline this?  [00:19:51] Zac: That's right. Yeah. So it will connect seamlessly with property managers, property management software. Pull in the active listings that they have, and then it will have triggers around the move in date. So once someone's been approved and you have a move in date that's approaching. [00:20:08] Zac: It will send reminders and say, Hey, you know, you're moving in end of the month, like before you move in, please show that you've turned the electric on so that there's not going to be bill back problems and things like that.  [00:20:20] Zac: So, it handles the communication and then what's pretty cool about the tool too, is it's all white labeled. Utility Profit, it's not, you know, like a tenant friendly name, you know? Yeah. It's really for the property manager. And so, okay. We're just helping to facilitate these things. So it's got the property manager's logo, you know, we're more just the underlying technology, which I think is good because like a renter in the process doesn't want to get handed off to another third party. [00:20:48] Zac: They just want to... [00:20:49] Jason: yeah, "Who are these guys? Why should I trust them? I trust you. I'm working with you," but yeah. Got it. No, I think that's really smart. And so your business model then, your growth strategy really is to leverage and support the property managers.  [00:21:02] Zac: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We're trying to partner with all the property managers in the single family rental space. [00:21:08] Zac: And you know, last I checked, you know, there's at least five to 10 million homes that are managed by third party property managers. And we want to become the main place where where people used to turn on utilities. And you know, we talked about entrepreneurs and having a big vision earlier in the call. [00:21:26] Zac: You know, I think we're solving an important problem by building this Google Maps of Utilities and also just making a better experience. I think anytime we start a business though, you're kind of thinking about like, okay, "Well if I'm able to pull this off, how could this even be even more significant long term?" [00:21:42] Zac: And one of the things that I've been just thinking about as I've been doing it is you know, today we are helping to connect the dots between these things, but I bet in the not too distant future, maybe a few years out, we'll be responsible for millions of homes in helping to turn on these utilities. [00:21:59] Jason: Yeah.  [00:22:00] Zac: We'll probably want to go down the stack of utilities, you know, instead of just directing you to be going to, you know, XYZ local power source. Maybe they get directed to a company that, similar to how we're able to get discounts on internet because we have so much scale, we could buy energy contracts in deregulated markets and, you know,  [00:22:22] Jason: okay. [00:22:22] Zac: Inch down becoming a utility.  [00:22:24] Zac: Okay.  [00:22:24] Zac: And so, I think it's a, it's an interesting thing.  [00:22:27] Jason: So you're saying maybe there's a potential the property manager could be the utility?  [00:22:32] Zac: We'll be able to help the property manager earn more money... [00:22:35] Zac: yeah. [00:22:35] Zac: ...on this process because we...  [00:22:38] Zac: just more margin [00:22:38] Zac: ...want to direct them to like a utility that we own. And we're able to help them monetize these other things like natural gas and electricity.  [00:22:49] Jason: Got it. Love it. Yeah. You're passing the benefit onto the property manager. So, yeah. That gives them quite an incentive to help you grow this. [00:22:55] Jason: Right. So I love it. So, I mean, this really gives property managers a strong competitive advantage over self-management then. [00:23:03] Zac: Yeah, I think so. You know, I think property managers, they have so many things that they're doing and this is one of those set it and forget it types of tools. You know, it's not something you have to have mastery over and like learn another thing, this is like you get on, you set the thing up, you get the logo added and get it synced to your PM software and then you're done with it and it just kind of is happening in the background and then just notifies you. [00:23:26] Jason: Got it. So the setup is pretty easy and then it makes it a lot easier for the property management team to make sure utilities are getting set up correctly. There's visibility into seeing what's been set up and what hasn't, it sounds like. And you mentioned integrations with property management software, and I know everybody listening's like, "but what about my software? The one I'm using?" Yeah. So what integrations do you guys have set up already?  [00:23:49] Zac: It's all the major ones. So what we find is like AppFolio is popular. Rentvine is becoming more and more popular. You know, Propertyware is another one. Buildium's one that we you know, have in the works too, but yeah, I think most people... [00:24:04] Zac: Rent manager? [00:24:05] Zac: Rent manager, yeah. That's one that we work with too. Yeah. I know there's a lot of options for property managers there, but yeah. [00:24:11] Jason: Very cool. Yeah. So everybody listening there. There you go. So they're like, "oh, he mentioned mine. I'm okay."  [00:24:17] Zac: Yeah, that's right. Yeah it's cool that it, you know, just works in a broad way like that. And it's kind of interesting too that the tool even is able to work you know, even if you don't even have a property management software to figure out some ways to you know, even work in that use case. [00:24:32] Jason: Sure.  [00:24:32] Zac: But most people have software.  [00:24:34] Jason: So as long as you can get the properties like into your system, then...?  [00:24:38] Jason: That's right.  [00:24:38] Jason: Got it. Okay, cool. But if they have those then and you have that connection, then it's, yeah, it'll just streamline things. Makes it even more turnkey.  [00:24:47] Zac: That's right.  [00:24:48] Jason: Got it. Cool. So, all right, so you, what else should people know about this? [00:24:52] Jason: Like what are the big questions property managers have been asking you?  [00:24:55] Zac: I think one question is, you know, how much money I earn from this? You know? Okay.  [00:24:59] Jason: They like, they want to know about the money. Let's talk about the money.  [00:25:03] Zac: So the average property manager will, it's a range of 25 to $40 per move that, that happens. [00:25:10] Zac: It ends up being about 25 to, to $30 on average is what we're seeing across the country. And so I think it's one of those things where it's like nice gravy. What we find is that the average property manager, they're like, "this is nice. I can make some extra money from it." But I think it's like, you know, not enough to go, you know, it just adds to the bottom line a little bit. [00:25:32] Zac: Every little thing. Sure. So the main reason why people use it is the time savings, you know? Absolutely. It's just one last thing to have to worry about. So that's that's what we're seeing as we talk to people.  [00:25:44] Jason: Yeah. Yeah, because I mean, just the amount of time you're paying a team member, if they're like 25 to $35 an hour, for example you know, they might be spending an hour or two here or there just calling, trying to negotiate back and forth with the tenant, get these things set up so. [00:25:59] Zac: Property management some days feels like death by a thousand mosquitoes.  [00:26:04] Jason: Oh yeah. I often joke it's, it can be death by a thousand cuts or it can be a really well oiled systemizable machine, but yeah. [00:26:12] Jason: Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, it offsets a little bit at the move in cost and then just the time savings. You're not having to pay your team to do all this communication. And you know, speed in onboarding is a real challenge for a lot of companies that are really in a high growth sort of state. [00:26:28] Jason: Like small companies might have a hard time just onboarding 10 units in a month, you know? Yeah. And larger companies, it can be pretty hairy if things aren't well dialed in.  [00:26:36] Zac: Yeah, I think that's a good point. It's all about having the systems in place. So that they scale.  [00:26:40] Jason: Very cool. [00:26:41] Jason: Well, is there anything else you think people should know about utility profit? And then we can get into like, how can they connect and get something like this going?  [00:26:50] Zac: Yeah. So the website's, utilityprofit.com.  [00:26:53] Jason: Okay.  [00:26:53] Zac: And it has some more information about how it works and has has some videos of the actual product. [00:26:59] Zac: You can see what it looks like from the renter's perspective, from your perspective and the dashboard that gives transparency. And and it kind of just walks you through everything about the product. And then there's a way on the website to be able to either book a demo if you have any questions about how something works. [00:27:17] Zac: And then, what we do is we'll just help you do like an onboarding call where we have people connect their PM software, upload a logo, invite their team members, really simple, straightforward process and then and then it's kind of good to go. So it's very streamlined thing. People typically will do it and it'll be live same day. [00:27:38] Zac: It's not like some big heavy lift or something. You just kind of go through this 15 minute process. We help you get it all synced up and then it's good to go.  [00:27:45] Jason: So, there's competition out there, right? Like this is a new thing in the space, but previously there's all these companies that try to, you know, negotiate and be able to pull in money and by being the person that gets people on a certain internet service or gets people and they get these kickbacks from the companies and that's how they make their money. [00:28:03] Jason: How do you feel like utility profits sort of stands out from those and I mean, my guess is you have the database, you have the data, like your ability to streamline. You're not having to go and start doing research and that you're just much faster.  [00:28:17] Zac: Yeah, I think that's exactly it. So there's been this whole category over the last couple years that's called a home concierge. [00:28:25] Zac: Yeah. And it's historically been like a call center model. Yeah. Where a rep will get the address and they'll, on your behalf, Google around, make some calls, you know, go try to set things up. And I think that was a helpful first step, and it seems like the natural thing that, that the industry would've been doing. [00:28:43] Zac: But this is just the natural progression of it, you know, building that database out, making it something that is like, you know, a true streamlined tool for everybody. And and just digitizing it a lot more.  [00:28:57] Jason: This is the future. This is the future. It's the next step. You're going to be a sponsor at DoorGrow Live. [00:29:02] Jason: So make sure, you know, everybody come to DoorGrow Live this year. Our theme this year is innovating the future of property management. And so we're going to be sharing innovative stuff. Innovative new models of pricing, not doing it the same way everybody else has been doing it, like percentage or flat fee. There's a lot of innovation and that's our goal at DoorGrow. We're always trying to figure out what are the most innovative stuff? We've got AI maintenance coordinators, we've got all sorts of stuff that are going to be showcased at this event. So if you don't want to be behind the times and have your lunch eaten by competitors and startups that are savvier and more focused on the future, make sure you come to DoorGrow Live. You're going to want to be there because the people that are at DoorGrow Live are going to be the ones that are getting a head start on these really effective cost, saving new tools, these ideas, they're going to help you have more profit in your business. [00:29:54] Jason: And so, Zac, we appreciate you being a sponsor. We're excited to showcase you and some other tools at our event, so.  [00:30:00] Zac: It's going to be fun. It'll be here right around the corner, so. [00:30:03] Jason: Check it out at doorgrowlive.com, and make sure you get your tickets. And we're going to be talking a little bit more in the future, probably on our podcast here. And just online about some of the cool things that you will get or learn if you come to DoorGrow Live this year in May at the Kalahari Resort in Round Rock, Texas. [00:30:20] Jason: So, cool. Well, Zac, is there anything else you want to share before you go? Parting word of wisdom for entrepreneurs out there that haven't had a hundred million dollar exits and built big giant things and they're just struggling to build their little machine, what would you say to them?  [00:30:36] Zac: I would just say like, whatever it is that you think that's holding you back, just start trying to do it. [00:30:43] Zac: You know? I think a lot of times you build up whatever it is in your head. And you think, "well, I would do it if I had this. Or what if I have to hire this person? Or, you know, I need to have this figured out, or I don't know how this works. Like I'm going to just say no to it." I would just say, just start doing it. [00:31:02] Zac: It doesn't have to be perfect to start. And the more you just take that first step it will become more clear and sometimes, it's harder to see the next 10 steps in front of you, but it's pretty easy to take that first step. So I'd say, have a bias for action. Get your hands dirty. Do it yourself. You have mentioned a lot of these things about AI and how the best companies are using ai. [00:31:25] Zac: We're really leaning into that as an organization. It doesn't matter what people's role is, we're saying. You know, download, ChatGPT three and talk to it. Ask it questions like, you know, there's so many cool resources today. It's the best time to figure things out and do things and and take that first step. [00:31:44] Jason: Yeah. GPT 4.5, we're getting clues of that's dropping and going to be out for everybody soon. And then Grok 3, I've been really geeking out on Grok 3, so it's pretty next level, so, but yeah. Cool. I love the idea. Done is better than perfect. I love the idea of rapid iteration. You know, so many times for those of you that are in the earlier stages of entrepreneurs listening to this, this is great advice because I've seen inside a lot of businesses, a lot of small businesses, and one of the biggest mistakes a lot of them make is they try to make everything perfect before they ship it, before they launch it. "I want to get all my processes dialed in," and they're trying to solve problems they don't even have yet. [00:32:20] Jason: They're trying to solve future problems instead of their current problem. And so rapid iteration really is the secret to growing a business quickly because you learn very fast what does and doesn't work. Just start trying shit. Just do it. Break stuff and you're going to learn way faster and everything's figureoutable, so.  [00:32:39] Zac: Yeah. And in that spirit, it doesn't matter what the thing is, you can always get feedback from it, even if it's not totally built yet, like it can be on a napkin, you know, or it could be the next level of that. But go build the thing in whatever low fidelity way. Yeah. [00:32:55] Zac: And then go talk to your customers about it. And this is going to have different applications for different types of business. because you're going to talk about different things. But you know, maybe you have a new program that you're thinking property owners might want to see, like get their feedback on it. [00:33:10] Zac: Or maybe you want to launch a new website or a new logo or whatever it is. I would just say, it doesn't have to be perfect, bring it but you have to get feedback on it. So definitely go and partner with who it is that is going to see it, and then just talk to them about it and say, "Well, how could this be better? What is this missing? What would be the next thing to do? If you could do anything with this, what would you do?" And, you know, people love to share advice. I mean, I think that's the other thing. Yeah. It's like over the last couple years since I've been doing entrepreneurship, I've been kind of amazed at how many people have been willing to share their time and their advice. [00:33:46] Zac: Yeah. And especially if you get an intro to someone from something. Yeah. You know, I think there's this huge thing of maybe you're afraid to ask for that intro or, you know, have that conversation because it's not perfect yet. I would say, you know, find the ideal person that you want to talk to and then figure out how to work backwards and how to get an intro to them and then have that conversation. [00:34:08] Zac: You know, I think you have to be vulnerable in it because you are going to come across dumb sometimes. You know, people are going to say like, "how did you not know this? Everyone knows this," but like, just lose your ego in that. Be okay with not being okay. And then you're going to feel a lot better because on the other side of it, you're going to learn so much. [00:34:27] Jason: Yeah, I think the secret to being smart is just being willing to look stupid. So, I mean, for sure. Ask the dumb question that you're afraid to ask because you're going to learn way faster. And I really think proximity is power. Like just another reason people should come to DoorGrow Live is I think we attract the most growth oriented property management, business owners in the industry and just being in proximity to all these sort of change makers and people trying new stuff and people experimenting, people willing to invest in themselves and to pay like coaches, like DoorGrow. And then I use all my clients as a mass rapid iteration sort of project. [00:35:05] Jason: Like we're always figuring out more and more stuff and I'm gathering these ideas and so we've got systems in place to just allow us to innovate in this industry a lot faster. And so we're really excited about bringing these kind of things to DoorGrow Live and showcasing it. [00:35:19] Jason: So if you're not part of our program, you're not one of our clients. Come check out the magic at DoorGrow Live. Connect with some of the people there and you might realize you found a home, so yeah, your family might be there. So yeah, entrepreneurs we're different breed of people. We, you know, we take risks, we're willing to try new things, and we're not focused primarily on safety and security. [00:35:39] Jason: We're focused more on fulfillment and freedom and contribution. And so this natural offshoot, entrepreneurs are the most helpful people, especially the healthy ones. When you're in a healthy growth-minded state, you want to benefit and help everybody. You're not gatekeeping information like people are sharing stuff and so yeah, I found the same thing to be true in the high level masterminds, coaches that I work with. [00:36:00] Jason: Like just being around the people in these programs has been probably the biggest benefit more than even learning from the guru or whoever that is sharing stuff sometimes. And so, yeah, proximity.  [00:36:11] Zac: Yeah, I think that's well said. You kind of become an average of the people that you spend most time with. [00:36:15] Zac: So if you're around, you know, someone who's going to be pessimistic about everything, then chances are, not going to try things as much. I mean, that, that was like one of the reasons why I had originally moved from, you know, where I was growing up in New Hampshire. I remember when I was pitching Favor when I was 20 something people were like, "ah, no one's going to pay five bucks for something like that. And how do you know how? You don't know how to code. You can't figure that out. Right? Go get a job like everybody else." And then I kind of moved and found my tribe you know, and in Silicon Valley area and then in Austin, Texas. And then next thing you know, I'm actually doing the thing.  [00:36:53] Jason: I think even if people just come to DoorGrow Live to connect with somebody like you and they can create a relationship with somebody like you or any of the change makers or players that we attract at our event. [00:37:05] Jason: I mean, you've done things that a lot of people would dream of being able to do in business, right. And so come make those connections, come to DoorGrow Live and make some connections because it's going to change your life for sure. So, well Zac, I appreciate you coming on the show. People can connect with your company at utilityprofit.com. [00:37:22] Jason: Do a demo. And it's been great having you here.  [00:37:26] Zac: Hey, thanks so much for having me on Jason.  [00:37:28] Jason: All right, so everybody, if you are struggling to grow your business or you're struggling to deal with operations, reach out to us. Check us out at DoorGrow.com. We would love to have a conversation, see if we might be able to help you with something. [00:37:39] Jason: And that's what we do all day long and we care about our clients. We really want to make sure that everybody succeeds. We only win if you're winning. And so until next time, everybody to our mutual growth, let's all win. Bye everyone. 

The property management industry is no stranger to conferences and in-person events, but have you ever thought about creating an event yourself? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the behind-the-scenes of putting on a live event or conference and all the pros and cons of doing so. You'll Learn [04:39] Learning from Past Mistakes and Failures [15:32] Getting Back in the Saddle: DoorGrow Live [21:07] What Goes Into Creating a Conference? [30:31] The Magic of In-Person Events Quotables “I think being able to just connect with people, making sure that people know who you are and what you do, I mean, it's really valuable.” “When you've got a room full of people who are in the same sector, in the same industry, there's so much knowledge in that room.” “When you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and a share a business model, like it really helps you grow.” “Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: When you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and share a business model, like it really helps you grow. [00:00:08] Jason: Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to. [00:00:13] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the Property Management Growth Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. [00:00:42] Jason: You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. [00:01:06] Jason: We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:14] Sarah: Woo!  [00:01:15] Jason: So first, you'll have to excuse if I sound a little nasally today, because I have a cold, which doesn't happen often. And I might have given it to Sarah. I don't know. [00:01:25] Sarah: My sinuses just feel weird.  [00:01:27] Jason: So.  [00:01:27] Sarah: So thanks.  [00:01:28] Jason: Yeah.  [00:01:29] Sarah: Thanks for that.  [00:01:30] Jason: Okay, so.  [00:01:31] Sarah: Appreciate it.  [00:01:32] Jason: You keep kissing me. I'm not kissing you. Like I'm not trying to get you sick.  [00:01:35] Sarah: He's not kissing me.  [00:01:36] Sarah: She can't resist.  [00:01:37] Sarah: Does anybody believe that? Nobody believes you. Nobody should.  [00:01:40] Jason: I'm sick. You keep coming up to me. [00:01:42] Jason: I'm like, you want this? Obviously she does, guys. Obviously.  [00:01:46] Sarah: Oh brother.  [00:01:47] Sarah: Alright.  [00:01:48] Sarah: What a great episode. What a great kicker offered.  [00:01:51] Jason: So I might be coughing and I apologize. Alright, so what we're talking about today is we thought we'd give you a little bit of behind the scenes into us creating an event and us doing DoorGrow Live, getting prepped and prepared for this. You know, we put an entire year into getting this thing going and getting this prepared and promoting it, finding speakers. [00:02:15] Jason: And so let's chat a little bit about some of the behind the scenes stuff.  [00:02:19] Sarah: Yeah. So one of the things that I wanted to talk about is kind of everything that really goes into it behind the scenes that when you go attend an event, you just don't notice. You just don't like realize a lot of the times, unless you're used to running events. [00:02:35] Sarah: And once you start running an event, go run one event and then you will attend every other event differently. For example, when we go to, you know, Aaron's events, or Funnel Hacking Live, my brain is constantly going, like, operationally, this must be a nightmare. How on earth are they coordinating all of this? [00:02:56] Sarah: It's just insane. Because I know how crazy it is with our conferences, and we don't yet have thousands of people there. We will, at one point. But, man, there's just so much that goes into it. So, If you're ever considering running events, and I think that for property managers and for anyone who's a real estate agent or investor, I really think events are something that you should at least look into. And it doesn't have to be this big crazy event where, you know, you spend 25- 30 thousand dollars like we do and that's kind of like a low budget, you know. That's like you'll blow through that real quick. It doesn't have to be anything like that and it definitely doesn't have to be this, you know, this big crazy promoted thing you can do your own version of events like in a very different way, back when I was in property management, you know, we would do some little networking events and they were nowhere near the size, but also nowhere near the cost, but they can be really beneficial for you to do. So I think if you haven't experimented with that, then maybe get some tips and pointers and check it out. Like try it, experiment and see what happens. Because for me, it was really great to just be connected. So there's that saying, "your net worth is in your network," and I think being able to just connect with people, make sure that people know who you are and what you do, I mean, it's really valuable. So if you're a property manager and you haven't done a little in person event yet, then perhaps you might want to try. And we're going to talk a little bit about, you know, what goes into like a bigger event the way that we run them. So why don't you give them some background? [00:04:41] Sarah: When was your first? Your first DoorGrow Live was pre-Sarah, the pre-Sarah DoorGrow age, I think it was it 2018?  [00:04:49] Jason: Yeah. 2018. 2018. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:04:51] Sarah: Okay. Can you talk about you know, what was the first DoorGrow Live like?  [00:04:57] Jason: Oh man. Yeah. And if you want to get a visual of this, you can go to, I think it's photos.doorgrow.Com and we have photos of all of our different major events. You can go back to 2018 and there's a nice photo of me and Mike Michalowicz there. And so we brought in some big, you know, for me, they were big speakers. Some people that I really looked up to and that I got a lot of value from. [00:05:22] Jason: So, coach, authors, you know, people that I had worked with. And so, it was a big deal. We spent, I think we spent about $115,000. Putting that event together because I wanted to do it, right. I didn't want my first event to be Mickey Mouse or cheap or you know, whatever So I wanted to do a really good job and I thought well, "and we'll sell tickets to make up for it." We did. We sold about a hundred and fifteen tickets at around, I think $1,000 a pop. [00:05:53] Jason: And I have a whole podcast episode I did on this. I call it my $2 million mistake because we were growing at a pace of, we were doing about a million in revenue a year and we were growing at a pace of about 300% percent at the time we were growing really quickly. We had a lot of momentum, and I decided to do this big conference. It was a little bit of an ego thing. Like it was like kind of a dream that I wanted to feel cool and be on stage and it was super stressful. The event went really well. People liked it, but I was massively stressed during it. And then I didn't do another one for how many years? I don't know.  [00:06:29] Sarah: Yeah, that was his first and only and then like canceled it  [00:06:33] Jason: I was like, "I don't think I'll do that again." [00:06:35] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:06:36] Jason: I mean I didn't realize everything that goes into it. I'm sure people were watching me start my first conference from the sidelines who have done events in the space were like, "good luck, bro," because they know how hard it can be. [00:06:47] Jason: It's like starting a whole nother business but you have to recognize there's like the hotel. It's hard to do an event that's not at a hotel. So you kind of have to do it at hotels and so they have this like, sort of, they're like the mafia. [00:07:01] Jason: They have this control over doing events. Like, and you go to them, you're like, "I want to do an event here." And they're like, "cool." And like finances become a thing and they negotiate a group rate with you, which means you have to book certain number of rooms because they want you to book rooms, and if you don't book out the group rate for the rooms in the room block, then you're responsible to pay for that. [00:07:24] Jason: So we were on the hook for like a lot of money for rooms. I'm like, "well, how many rooms does that mean? And like how many nights?" And all this stuff. So just managing finances for an event is like managing finances for a dangerous business startup is really what it is. Because people have gone bankrupt from doing big events really big events where you have two, three thousand, five thousand. These are millions and millions of dollars in and out. [00:07:48] Sarah: Yeah. [00:07:49] Jason: And if they don't navigate this well, it can bankrupt companies  [00:07:53] Sarah: Russell just said that on stage. He didn't say who, but Russell Brunson said that he knew someone that was running a big event, didn't sell enough rooms in the room block, and he went bankrupt from it because it was such a large event and he was on the hook for so much money and ended up bankrupting the company. [00:08:13] Jason: It's dangerous. And then you got to get people to buy the ticket, book the hotel, like, and then there's marketing to do this. You got to spend a lot of money to get people to do this. And then, you know, in order to attract people, sometimes people will do like big speakers. Like I got some speakers and let me tell you speakers, they're expensive. [00:08:33] Jason: Like usually they, they want thousands and thousands of dollars. Like an  [00:08:37] Sarah: inexpensive speaker just to like put it out there, like an inexpensive speaker is still usually around like 5k  [00:08:44] Jason: Anyone you've probably heard of is that minimum 25 grand.  [00:08:47] Sarah: Well more than that. [00:08:49] Jason: And if they're a big name It's 50k, 100k, it can be really expensive to have them come be in an event. [00:08:58] Jason: So, Yeah, so it can be really challenging. Then there's food and beverage minimums. So the hotel, they're like, "you also have to spend a certain amount on food and beverage while you're here." Yeah, so they're like, "you have to book a certain number of rooms. You have to, like, pay for a certain number of food and beverage, and you're not allowed to bring any other food or beverage into our place." [00:09:19] Jason: Nope.  [00:09:19] Jason: "You have to use our stuff. And our stuff is like going to the movie theater. It's overly priced, like, inflated."  [00:09:26] Sarah: Remember, we did the Game Changer event at the JW Marriott in Austin so I looked at everything afterwards and it was not a huge event. It was not a big event. We had under 20 people there. [00:09:40] Sarah: Yeah. And that included like Jason, myself, DoorGrow staff, speakers, like under 20 people. And one lunch and we had, it was a two day event. So we did like two lunches. So one lunch, I think was somewhere around like two or 3,000 dollars. Yeah, it was insane for lunch.  [00:09:57] Jason: And my first event, we spent eight grand to provide coffee for two days. Eight grand for...  [00:10:03] Sarah: coffee. Yeah.  [00:10:05] Jason: For two days like and you know, and they have all these rules. I think the rules are made to inflate the price, but they have these food and beverage and they charge you sometimes by plate. So that hotel that we were at our first event, we didn't realize this, but they have people to go around and pick up plates. [00:10:22] Jason: And you're paying by the number of plates people use. Like how much food they consume and by plate. So they were picking up plates.  [00:10:29] Sarah: Oh my god.  [00:10:30] Jason: It's a racket. Like if you go into this not knowing what you're doing, some hotels can take gross amounts of money. Wow. They negotiate a terrible group rate, they negotiate a horrible food and beverage minimum is really high for you, and then you go way over that minimum if they have anything to do with it. [00:10:45] Jason: And so you're spending all this money and they're like, "well..."  [00:10:47] Sarah: you'll never have to worry about hitting your minimum in food and beverage, like, never. No, really.  [00:10:51] Jason: I mean, if you want food there, period, like,  [00:10:54] Sarah: you're going to hit it. So, I don't care. I don't even care what my minimum is because it doesn't, honestly, it doesn't even matter.  [00:11:00] Jason: Yeah. So then people think, oh, well, then I'll do the event somewhere else. Well, if you do it somewhere else, then how are they going to get from where they're staying to the venue? And so then there's a logistical challenge. So then like people aren't like coming and it's just like it's so much easier if they walk. [00:11:17] Jason: So everything gets like complicated when you don't do it at the hotel.  [00:11:22] Sarah: Where was your first event? Where was it?  [00:11:24] Jason: It was in St. Louis at an old classic hotel. It was really beautiful.  [00:11:28] Sarah: Okay. Interesting.  [00:11:30] Jason: Yeah, we did in St. Louis. We did it at This hotel and we did it because we thought we'll make it easy because NARPM had an event around the same time. [00:11:41] Jason: So we're like, Oh man, we want to do it at the same time. So let's just do it at the same venue. I think we did it the same venue, but we booked a nicer room on the top floor with lots of windows. It was very cool. And it was on different days. So you could attend both. We thought that would give us some cross pollination and really, it didn't. [00:12:00] Jason: Like there were a few people that went to the NARPM one and came to ours, but yeah, it was like so small. So that didn't even really help. "We're like, yeah, it's so easy to stay a little longer and go to ours." [00:12:08] Sarah: Interesting. Okay. Yeah.  [00:12:10] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:11] Sarah: So after the first DoorGrow Live, he decided, I think when I came on board, he said, "I'm never doing another event again." [00:12:18] Jason: Yeah, I just didn't want to deal with it. It was so stressful. And your whole team, that's the real part of it, is like your whole team is involved in it in different ways, unless you have someone specifically handling sales, event, marketing, planning, advertising, planning, like every role we had in our business that we needed for our business had to go towards the conference because we were now on the hook for, I can't remember, like 50, 80 grand or something with the hotel. We had to figure out how to get rooms booked. We had to figure out how to pay for speakers. It was a whole thing. It was like starting a whole nother business. And our main thing was no longer the main thing. [00:12:58] Jason: So our business stopped growing. It actually didn't grow for several years after that, like a couple of years after that. And that's why I call it my 3 million or 2 million mistake, but it was probably a bigger multi million dollar mistake than that, because there's a lot of money I could have made over those years extra. [00:13:14] Jason: We're not hurting by any means, but that really slowed things down. And I just chalk that up to being the price of tuition in business. I made a mistake. I didn't know. And I learned from it, right? And I didn't listen to my mentor. Alex was like, "make it a really small event. Make it really small. Do your first one, make it small." I'm like, "no way. I've been to so many events. I'm going to make this awesome. I want this. If I'm going to compete with all the other events that are out there, I want this to be the best." And I really think, like, we had the best food there. We had the best, like, everything was the best. [00:13:46] Jason: We had audio visual team. We had a stage set up, like, we put a lot of money into this and it was pretty awesome. Like, it went pretty well. But I was massively stressed during the whole event. And yeah, but people that went, they gave us good feedback. They had a good experience. So, which I'm glad. Then you got to like ticket sales is hard too. [00:14:06] Jason: That's a tough challenge. How do you get people to give up what they're doing to come do something else? And so, you know, we've created some really strong magic. I think at DoorGrow, like our in person events, there's just something magical about our events. There's more heart, there's more connection. [00:14:20] Jason: It changes lives and that's very different than what has happened in the space. And I think that's more just about who we are and what we bring and the type of speakers that we bring in. It's very different than just property management.  [00:14:34] Sarah: And so that's one of the things I wanted to talk about is, so you did your first event. [00:14:39] Sarah: It went well, but it was pretty crazy. We basically broke even. We're not doing another event. I came on to the business a couple years after this and there's still a lot of like trauma and PTSD associated with it and then we started talking. Well, what if we do another event? And he said "no. No I don't want to do another event," and I said, "well, what if we do it differently?" So we did bring DoorGrow Live back after that first conference that they did and we've done several of them since then. We have another one coming up in May. It's May 16th and 17th. It's a Friday and Saturday at the Kalahari Resorts in the North Austin, Texas area. So if you're watching this and you have not yet registered, then definitely go do that. You can go to doorgrowlive.Com. But we've done several of these events since then, and one of the reasons that we wanted to bring these events back, especially even though for Jason it was just so, so traumatic, we just needed to do them a little differently. [00:15:43] Sarah: So, the reason that we wanted to bring them back though is because everything is just so much different when it's in person. And we know that there's so much magic that can just happen if, you know, if we can get people in a room. It's not just going to another conference. So in the industry, there's a lot of conferences, I mean, there's tech conferences and like all the big you know softwares have their own thing and there's NARPM events and there's all kinds of things like this and DoorGrow Live is just different. It's different than all of those things. We're not trying to focus on hey, you know, what are they doing and let's duplicate it. We're focused on how can we provide like such a great experience and such great value and real connection in a like large group environment? Which is hard. [00:16:38] Sarah: Like that's a challenge. If you're like, okay, we're going to get, you know, 50 to a hundred people in a room and we want them to all be connected. That's hard. That's hard. But I think that our events do actually a really great job at that.  [00:16:49] Jason: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, we get great testimonials. It's going to we have a really cool venue We just decided to keep doing it at this Kalahari resort. [00:16:59] Jason: It's near our house. It's in Round Rock They treat us really well there. It's a big it's like we have endless room to grow there We could have thousands and thousands of people someday if we wanted to. There's plenty of room there  [00:17:12] Sarah: But they're great to work with and the rooms are nice. When you guys book a room, the rooms are nice, everything is right on property, it's very family friendly too, so, you know, if you want to kind of bring your family and usually, I've noticed sometimes people, when they go to the conference, and then their family stays at home, there's a little bit of like, "oh, you're leaving me with the kids, like, what is this? Like, you get to go off to a conference and," well, come, like, come with us and you guys can hang out at, like the water park and the Build A Bear and the restaurants and the like arcade and there's still...  [00:17:48] Jason: America's largest indoor water park. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:17:52] Sarah: And I think when you book a room, they include a ticket. [00:17:53] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:17:54] Jason: You get a ticket to all a bunch of cool stuff. So like you get a, like a wristband. So yeah it's a pretty fun place. Like there's a whole Facebook group just for people looking for deals and discounts to stay at this resort. Yeah. They're like always talking about it in that group. I've joined all the local groups, just see what's going on. [00:18:15] Jason: So, yeah, so it's pretty interesting. So yeah, we've got a really cool venue. And oh, the other things places have charged us for other places we've done some of our events they charge us for electricity, they charge us for, like, just having cords put down.  [00:18:31] Sarah: They charge for internet. [00:18:32] Jason: They find a way to charge you for everything at some venues, and so, not all venues are equal. [00:18:38] Jason: So, yeah, so we've really appreciated the Kalahari Resort in Round Rock. It's a cool resort, and they treat us really well there, so.  [00:18:45] Sarah: Yeah, and it's a great experience for people. Because that's really frustrating when you go into any kind of hotel and you're like, "Oh. Why is this where I'm at? I guess I'll be here because the conference is here, but outside of the conference being here, I would never book here." And this is not that at all. Like people like to book here for sure. I think now let's do our little demo and then we'll get back into it.  [00:19:08] Jason: Got a little sponsor for today's episode, KRS SmartBooks. [00:19:13] Jason: Do you have properties to manage and zero time for bookkeeping headaches? KRS SmartBooks is your secret weapon. They specialize in finances for busy property managers like you with 15 plus years of real estate know how and skills in Appfolio, Yardi, and more. Imagine monthly reports magically appearing and zero accounting stress. [00:19:35] Jason: Sound good? Head to KRS Books. At K as in Kansas, R as in Roger, S as in Sam. Books. Sarah's already dying. She's like, you didn't do the right military phonetically.  [00:19:46] Sarah: I really am dying inside.  [00:19:47] Jason: KRSbooks. com to book your free discovery call. Integrity, quality, and a dash of bookkeeping brilliance. That's KRS Smart Books. [00:19:58] Jason: Alright, how should I phonetically do KRS?  [00:20:00] Sarah: K like Kilo, R like Romeo, S like Sierra.  [00:20:04] Jason: Alright, Sarah, by the way, is Becoming a pilot. She's taking pilot flying lessons.  [00:20:11] Sarah: I've known the military code for years  [00:20:13] Sarah: because I used to work in a casino and that's how they would communicate in slot machines.  [00:20:20] Jason: Yeah, alright. [00:20:21] Sarah: But now it's also handy being a pilot.  [00:20:24] Jason: Okay.  [00:20:24] Sarah: Alright, so if that sounds good, I think it sounds really great. Because I know a lot of property managers struggle with bookkeeping, and that's usually not something that's fun for property managers. It's definitely necessary, but it, oh man, it's not fun, and it's really draining. [00:20:38] Sarah: So if you can find someone that's great at what they do, and you can allow them to handle that, and just kind of check in and make sure things are going well, then, whoo, man, life gets a lot easier.  [00:20:51] Jason: Yeah if you're not paying attention to the finances or the financial health of your business or your accounting You're probably getting stolen from it's just I've seen it happen so many times. [00:21:01] Jason: So get a great bookkeeper. Yeah have people you trust to take care of that. Okay.  [00:21:07] Sarah: So speaking of finances, let's talk a little bit about what kind of goes into an event. So for example, we have our DoorGrow Live coming up in May this year. So we have been working on this event now since, so our last one was in May, and then I think we started working on the new one in like July, June or July. [00:21:31] Sarah: So things that have to kind of happen just to be able to have the space, obviously, you have to look into venues, you have to, you know, look at the space, make sure it's going to work for the size of your group, which means you kind of have to estimate a little bit what it's going to look like, and then make sure that the room can. [00:21:48] Sarah: fit more or less if needed.  [00:21:51] Jason: You've got to negotiate with the hotel.  [00:21:53] Sarah: Yep. You've got to negotiate what the rates would be. You know, am I paying for the space or am I paying for the room block and the food? Because there's different ways to do it. So you've got to figure out, you know, how many rooms in the room block do I need? [00:22:09] Sarah: Because if you overestimate that, if you go, "Hey, I think I'm going to have a thousand people come" and 100 people come, it is not going to be a good time for you because every room in the room block that is not sold, you are financially on the hook for. So you get to pay for that. And it's like, it's a certain number of nights. [00:22:28] Sarah: So it's not even so much how many rooms it's, how many nights someone will book. So you want to track that along the way. And then you want to start looking at a lot of the tactical things that go into it, like, well, who is going to speak at the event? So you want to start looking at speakers and when you're looking at speakers, you start to think about, you know, who would our audience resonate with and what kind of value would they provide? [00:22:55] Sarah: And, you know, is this strategic and tactical stuff or is this like mindset and empowerment stuff? Because you kind of want to get a mix of both at each event because everyone who comes to an event They're looking for a different thing. So it's really impossible to satisfy everybody make sure everybody, you know is super happy with everything sometimes people say, "oh, I wish there was more of this and oh, I wish there was more of that," but you kind of have to do like this balance and mix to make sure that everybody gets something out of it. [00:23:25] Sarah: And that they have a great experience. You also want to build a little bit of fun into it. So that it's not just, "hey, show up to this conference, sit down, learn something, take some notes and walk out of the room." You know, we've been to events like that before. Where it's like, "okay, that was a lot. But also, man, it would have been really cool to like, do something fun and you know connect with people," so you want to you know start to build in some time so that people can connect with other people, you know, so are you going to do a mixer? [00:23:52] Sarah: Are you going to do some sort of networking event? You know, are you going to you know go do kind of some fun event before like the night before? Are you going to, you know, send them off to lunch together? What is that going to look like? So that they can really connect with each other especially when you've got a room full of people who are in the same sector, in the same industry, there's so much knowledge in that room. [00:24:15] Sarah: So just talking to other people in the room is really valuable and making connections. So there's got to be some room for that as well. And then you want to think about well, are we going to have any vendors or sponsors? Yeah, and are those vendors or sponsors people that have services that are valuable and that we trust? Because there have also been times where, you know, someone had wanted to sponsor us and we did not want them to be a sponsor. [00:24:43] Sarah: Because if they don't provide a great service, you know, can you throw some money and be in the room? Yeah, but if it's not the right person to be in the room, then that matters. That matters a lot. So we have turned down money. We've turned down sponsorships. So then you also have to think about all of the tactical things. [00:25:05] Sarah: Well, you know, am I doing round tables? Am I doing classroom style? Are we doing full circles? Are we doing semi circles? Like what is the front of the room? And what's the back of the room? And where are the vendors going to be? And what doors do people walk in and out of? And as soon as they walk in, what is the first thing that they see? [00:25:20] Sarah: In what direction do we want to go in? And are they crossing over our equipment? Is somebody going to trip and fall on all the 10,000 chords that we have like taped down and. Then you have to also think about things like your AV. So does the room have internet? Is there power in the room? And I know that seems like a silly question to ask, but guess what? [00:25:40] Sarah: Sometimes they charge you for power. So you would think, hey, there's power in the room, obviously, because like it's at a hotel. They obviously have electricity. Yeah, but do you have to pay for it?  [00:25:49] Jason: Yeah, AV is expensive. Like we rented it initially and it was so costly.  [00:25:54] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:25:54] Jason: For the price you could rent it for it made sense to just buy it. [00:25:58] Sarah: To buy it.  [00:25:59] Jason: And so we eventually bought all our own equipment, but that means now we have to set it up and we have to figure it out. And so, yeah, so there's always a challenge.  [00:26:08] Sarah: Before the actual conference, like before anybody even steps foot like on property, Jason and I and several members of our team are there setting things up. [00:26:18] Jason: Sometimes my kids. Yeah,  [00:26:19] Sarah: sometimes the kids, sometimes an assistant, sometimes Madi comes on in.  [00:26:22] Jason: We're hooking up lights, we're plugging in audio equipment.  [00:26:25] Sarah: So we like pack everything up in Jason's SUV. We drive it over, we unload it. I'm doing this in stilettos, mind you, because I'm a stubborn  [00:26:33] Jason: You do everything in stilettos. [00:26:33] Sarah: Yeah, that's what I am. Right, so we like, we get there, we unpack it, we have to set it all up. You know, we're making sure that, like, all the lights are working, a sound system has to work, because there's no point in having a microphone if it's not going to work. There's always technical errors, and I'm horrible with technology, so Jason is our tech person, and he is the only tech person that we have. [00:26:54] Sarah: So he gets to figure everything out. And then it's like, you know, is the screen working? And can people see it? And is the laptop connecting to the screen? And is it blurry or is it too big or too far? Like there's always these weird little issues that happen and I don't know how to solve any of them. [00:27:10] Sarah: Yeah, so Jason knows how to do that. And then there's the other things like well. What about swag? And you know, are we doing a registration table and who's going to be there to, you know, check people in and make sure they know what to do and they know where to go? And, you know, is there like just kind of first come first serve seating? [00:27:27] Sarah: Or is there like a separate section for, you know, special clients or VIP clients or speakers or the team? And there's also things like, "Oh, well what about name badges?" You know, are we doing, like, are we doing name badges? Are we, you know, making sure that everybody kind of knows who everybody else is? Is there anything special or is it just like a bunch of people walking into a room and then hopefully they figure out that they're in the right room? Like there's so much that goes into it and then there's the scheduling. So well, you know, who's going to go in what order, what day and time are certain speakers available? Because just because they commit to an event doesn't mean, "oh, I can speak at any point during the event." [00:28:11] Sarah: So, you know, it's putting the agenda together and how long do you give them for lunch and where are they going for lunch? And are we doing lunch? Are we, you know, letting them facilitate it on their own? Are we doing breaks? How do we get them back from breaks? Are we, it's crazy. Like it's so, there's so much. [00:28:28] Jason: If you give people a break at an event, it's like 30 minutes of downtime. Oh yeah. It's really hard to get people to like get to the next thing or come back right away. And they all start talking to each other, which is cool. They want to network. Yeah, so getting people back from lunch.  [00:28:43] Sarah: Yes, absolutely. Yes. [00:28:45] Sarah: And then it's, you know, who kicks off the event? Who opens it? Who closes it? Who's going after lunch? Because we all know most people, what happens to them after lunch? They're tired. I'm fine. But a lot of people, they're tired after lunch. So you can't have a, you know, more mundane or quiet or low energy speaker after lunch. [00:29:06] Sarah: You just can't. Because you'll lose everybody. So there's a lot that goes into the scheduling as well. And then there's things like, you know, who's going to MC it? Who's making announcements? Who's making sure that everybody knows where to be? And what time? And what to do and when to come back? And who's doing the intros for speakers? [00:29:26] Sarah: Are you doing music for every speaker that comes up? If so, like, are they picking it? Are you picking it? What happens? Like there is so so so much that goes into it, and then after you like run the event then you got to break it all down if it's your equipment. Yeah, so then it's like pack it all up and put it away and make sure nothing gets damaged or lost and repack the car and unload it again, and like there is so much that goes Into it. [00:29:53] Sarah: And I would say at this point, it's funny because Jason now can show up to DoorGrow Live and nine out of 10 times, he has no idea what's going to happen or when.  [00:30:05] Sarah: I love it.  [00:30:06] Sarah: I just call him up on stage and he's like, oh, okay, because, and I'm like, my team handle most of it. Talking on this go.  [00:30:12] Jason: Right now. I still just have to make sure the tech stuff all works. [00:30:15] Jason: But yeah, other than that, yeah, I don't. I don't have to do as much which is nice, but because it's stressful enough. It's stressful enough So yeah, so it's a lot. There's a lot that goes into it, but it's been worth it to have you know to see people's lives change to see people impacted. We've noticed there's some sort of magic that happens that when people come to something in person with us even if they've been a client for years, they start to get different results. [00:30:40] Jason: They start to see things differently. They start to absorb all of our content, our information, our training material, our ideas more effectively. Everything just magnifies. There's something about in person. You can't get the same sort of benefit in your business. If you think, "all I need to do is read books and watch videos and show up to zoom calls to grow my business. [00:31:04] Jason: Look, there's a lot of benefits in all of those things. I do all those things, but we still go to in person things. There's something different about in person that I don't know if it's the energy of being in the same space as the people you're learning from. If it's the group energy and that group mind that makes you able to like learn and faster. [00:31:23] Jason: There's, but there's some, I don't know if maybe there's some quantum physical magic, magical stuff, but there's something different about it in person. It's happened too many times for me to like believe otherwise or to dismiss it. I've had too many clients that I've been working with for years, go to their first in person thing with us, and then they have some breakthrough. And I'm like what? And they tell me about it, and I'm like, "I've been teaching you that for years!" Like "I know but like but it's just hit differently." [00:31:51] Jason: Yeah, "I just got it." [00:31:52] Sarah: It hits different. It feels different and you just absorb things. [00:31:57] Jason: And because we've seen this pattern, we've seen this pattern, we now make it part of our onboarding of every new client to come hang out with Sarah and I in person for a one day with usually a small cohort and like, and just get some things figured out and dialed in their business. [00:32:14] Jason: And that's been magic for our business. Like it's been magic for our clients, magic for us. So we give them that in person experience early on. And then DoorGrow Live allows them to connect with others, which is there's just something different about the people at DoorGrow. The property managers at DoorGrow are different. [00:32:30] Jason: I've been to a lot of conferences. A lot. Like in various industries, but especially in property management. And there's something different about the people that we attract and the clients that we attract. They're growth minded, they're positive active in mentalities, which means they're not like the skeptical, negative Nancy's that are grumpy about the industry and the business. [00:32:51] Jason: That there's this positive growth minded, healthier sort of personality that we attract at DoorGrow. And maybe that says a little bit about who we are, because that's what I tried to be. But we attract amazing people and the connections people make, when you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and a share a business model, like it really helps you grow. [00:33:15] Jason: Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to or that you're most influenced by. So look at those property managers if you've got coaches or mentors, and they're not people that you really like that maybe you think they're smart, but you don't really want to be more like them, then maybe you're around the wrong people. [00:33:34] Jason: Maybe you have the wrong coach, and I'm not the coach for everybody. Sarah's not the coach for everybody. But you should have a coach. Otherwise, you're selling yourself short if you're not accountable to anybody, you're definitely getting less results than you could or should be so come to DoorGrow Live come check us out. This DoorGrow Live, [00:33:52] Jason: I want to open our playbooks up if Sarah lets me. I want to just reveal some really amazing stuff that only our clients get to see because I want to show anyone that shows up that's not part of our DoorGrow ecosystem. Our clients know the magic's there. We have more case studies or testimonials than anyone else in the industry, but if you're not a DoorGrow client, and you want to come to DoorGrow Live I'm going to give you some gifts for sure, some magic. We're going to make some significant changes in your business. They're going to help you make a lot more money a lot more easily and keep a lot more of your profit and so come hang out with us. [00:34:29] Jason: You're not going to be disappointed for sure So there you go.  [00:34:33] Sarah: Yeah. This event we've got some really awesome things planned. We can't let too much out of the bag at this point. But we always have some really great things planned and every event we do, like we always learn from it. [00:34:46] Sarah: And we always do like a little team meeting afterwards and we get feedback from people. We're always looking to make it better and better. And this year is absolutely no exception to that. So the things that we have planned for this year, like I know that if you come to this event, it will change your business and it will change your life. [00:35:12] Sarah: And I know that's a really bold statement and we're ready to back it.  [00:35:16] Jason: Yeah. And maybe that could be a later podcast episode as we get closer to the event. But we can tell you a little bit more about what's going to be happening there, but hopefully this was interesting to get behind the scenes at all that goes into DoorGrow Live and we meet on this you know, we're talking about it weekly, monthly in our planning meetings, like and quarterly. [00:35:37] Jason: And so, and that's it for today's episode. So if you are interested in that, go check it out at DoorGrowLive.Com and get your tickets and get things booked and get ready to come have an amazing experience in May at DoorGrow Live. So, and until next time to our mutual growth, bye everyone. 

Many property management business owners out there struggle with having a bad brand, bad pricing, cheapo clients, a lack of confidence, and more. In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down in-person with property manager and DoorGrow client, Kelly Rafuse, to talk about her journey with property management. You'll Learn [04:53] How to Be Picky with the Clients You Bring on [10:59] Overcoming the “Hustler” Mindset [15:04] Choosing an Effective Brand [21:07] Cheapos, Normals, and Premium Buyers Tweetables  ”As you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't.” “ The more confident you are, the more some of these… difficult personality types will kind of abdicate and allow you to lead them.” “ It's better to be at the top than to be competing with the garbage at the bottom.” “ Need is scarcity, need is starving, and need is survival.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Kelly: You know, as you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't. And I learned how to manage property the hard way.  [00:00:07] Jason: But you learned it.  [00:00:08] Kelly: Yes.  [00:00:10] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives. And you're interested in growing in business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. [00:00:37] You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull, founder and CEO of DoorGrow, and Sarah Hull, the co owner and COO of DoorGrow. And now let's get into the show.  [00:01:13] So our guest today, we're hanging out with Kelly. Kelly, introduce yourself.  [00:01:17] Kelly: Hi there, my name is Kelly Rafuse with Crimson Cape Property Management in Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania.  [00:01:22] Jason: And you have a really nice logo. Where'd you get that really nice logo?  [00:01:25] Kelly: It's this little mastermind I joined called DoorGrow helped me with that.  [00:01:29] Jason: And it's, I was saying, I think it's cool because it's like you are flying right there. [00:01:33] It's like, it like reminds me of you.  [00:01:37] Kelly: Well, yeah. I had this Marvel Comics stud fetish, so.  [00:01:41] Jason: Yes. Okay. You're the Marvel comic gal. All right. So really excited to be hanging out. We're actually in Pennsylvania because this is kind of the neck of the woods Sarah grew up in and managed properties nearby and you manage properties in a neighboring market and so. [00:01:59] The same market. The same market. She, yeah. Exact same market.  [00:02:02] Sarah: I left and she has the market.  [00:02:05] Kelly: While you were here, I was just managing my own portfolio.  [00:02:08] Jason: Oh, okay.  [00:02:09] Kelly: And people were coming to me to manage theirs, and that's how I got into this mess.  [00:02:15] Jason: Yeah. Well, give us a little more background on you, Kelly. [00:02:18] How'd you get into property management?  [00:02:20] Kelly: Oh, well, I started off as a real estate investor. You know, buying homes out here in Northeast PA. It's a very good place to invest in property. Cash flow is, I mean, I think cap rates were like 12 percent when I got in. So, I mean, it was huge, and honestly, I was trying to replace my income because I'd gotten as far as I could go in my former career, you know, hit a huge glass ceiling, and realized that, you know, real estate was probably my ticket to freedom. [00:02:45] Jason: What was your former career?  [00:02:47] Kelly: I was on the radio.  [00:02:48] Jason: Yeah, okay, you've got a great voice for it, so.  [00:02:51] Thank you very much.  [00:02:53] Yeah, so you were doing the radio.  [00:02:54] Kelly: Yeah, so I actually got into this market, and I liked it here. I actually, I did my two years and then moved to a bigger market. I was in Hartford, Connecticut for a while. [00:03:03] And then an opportunity to come back presented itself. And I came back because I genuinely like the area. And you know, the inexpensive real estate was an attraction. And then My husband and I got into investing in properties. We built up quite a portfolio. We had 25 units of our own at one point. [00:03:20] We're down to 14 now. We sold a few off that, you know, really weren't moneymakers for us. But, you know, as you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't. And I learned how to manage property the hard way.  [00:03:33] Jason: But you learned it.  [00:03:34] Kelly: Yes. I made all the mistakes.  [00:03:37] Jason: Yeah. And that's sometimes learning through mistakes and pain. [00:03:41] I sometimes joke that DoorGrow was built on thousands of mistakes.  [00:03:45] Kelly: You're telling me. And I will introduce My biggest pain point in just a second here. So what caused me to join DoorGrow is my husband's a real estate broker. And so people were banging on his door. "Can you manage my property? Can you manage my property?" It's like, "well, I don't do that, but my wife does."  [00:04:03] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:04] Kelly: And I'm like, well, I can't manage their property. I don't have a real estate license. And so it was a whole year of, "come on! Just get the license. Just do it! Just do it. Come on!" So I got the license. And I took on one of his investor clients, and I joined DoorGrow, like all in the same day. [00:04:23] And what I found out when I joined DoorGrow was I never should have taken on that client.  [00:04:27] Jason: That was the price of tuition. It's one of the key lessons that defines you in business, which is you learn those lessons and not take on bad clients. Well, I mean, for us, it's been really inspiring and exciting to see your journey as an entrepreneur and see you kind of get all this ready and get things developed and start to grow. [00:04:46] And so, we were talking about it, like, what should we talk about on the podcast today with Kelly? And you had mentioned.  [00:04:53] Sarah: Yeah, I had said, I think for me, one of the biggest shifts that I've seen in Kelly again and again and again is shifts in mindset because it was just even a few weeks ago where maybe a month ago or something, was relatively recent, where you were saying like, "oh, I read this book and it changed my life I'm waking up at like 4:30 in the morning and structuring my day different" and it was just again and again. But you've had these little shifts that end up leading to these huge changes for you and how you run things and how you structure your day and like just even your, your energy levels seem to be more protected now. [00:05:32] Kelly: Yeah, I'm not getting up at 4:30 in the morning anymore. Although I just learned yesterday I might have to start again because my daughter wants to join the swim team. Oh. And they practice it. 5 a. m. sometimes, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's been a struggle because I'm not only a real estate entrepreneur. [00:05:48] I am also, you know, a wife of a whirlwind. I mean, my husband is a broker. He's into wholesaling. He's into flipping. And I go to manage him.  [00:05:58] Jason: The whirlwind broker.  [00:06:00] Kelly: Yeah, and,  [00:06:02] Jason: yeah.  [00:06:02] Kelly: No, we'll say no more about that.  [00:06:04] Sarah: There's a lot going on. [00:06:05] Lots of moving pieces.  [00:06:06] Kelly: He's a genius. He's like a Bill Gates level genius. [00:06:09] I'm just waiting for the ship to come in. Yeah, nice. It's been 30 years, but it's coming.  [00:06:13] Jason: So what do you feel like maybe was the first mindset thing that you noticed in Kelly, kind of overcoming? Or what do you feel like was your first?  [00:06:22] Sarah: I don't know if I can think of a first, but I know that there's been several that I'd like to highlight. [00:06:27] Jason: Okay.  [00:06:27] Sarah: So I think one of the things is being much more picky with what clients you take on and what properties you take on and how you kind of screen and vet people.  [00:06:41] Jason: Maybe that first client helped you learn that lesson.  [00:06:44] Sarah: Yes.  [00:06:45] Jason: Yeah. So what, what was the lesson there? Like, what did you figure out?  [00:06:48] Kelly: Oh, wow. You know, the, the first thing is I have to see if our philosophies match. [00:06:53] Jason: You and the client.  [00:06:54] Kelly: Yes. And when I got into real estate investing, I admit I'm a bit of an idealist. I know you're into personality types.  [00:07:01] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:01] Kelly: And I test as an INFP.  [00:07:03] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:03] Kelly: So I probably have no business being in any business at all, but yet here I am. But I'm a dreamer. I'm a visionary. And so my first company was, and still is called Good People, Good Homes, LLC. [00:07:15] And I own property in that LLC. I'm not really doing business in it. It just holds property for me. But when I started it, it was supposed to be the company and it was: you buy these distressed properties in these neighborhoods and you fix them up and you put great people in them and it brings up the whole neighborhood and then everybody loves you and we hold hands and sing Kumbaya and that didn't really happen. [00:07:36] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:36] Kelly: But I did improve a lot of properties.  [00:07:39] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:39] Kelly: Right. Yeah.  [00:07:41] Sarah: I think arguably in this market, you are outdoing anything that I've ever seen because the befores and afters are just wild. And the rent rates before and after are wild. And this area, yes, you can absolutely get a great deal, a great bargain on real estate, and that doesn't come without its challenges and its problems. [00:08:06] But one of the things that I think is just so great in this area that you do is you take these distressed properties and you make them beautiful and livable and safe. And you provide a wonderful home now on something before that was dilapidated.  [00:08:25] Kelly: And the market's full of C class properties. You know, I hear a lot of property managers say, "Why are you even bothering with those?" [00:08:31] Well, honestly, there isn't anything else. Yeah, that's what we hear. You work with what you got. And I probably wouldn't be a real estate investor if the market wasn't like this. Because that's how I got in. I didn't make a ton of money in radio. I didn't. But I made enough to get in, you know, with a C class property. [00:08:48] And now those C class properties are paying for my life, and my daughter's life, and it's beautiful. The property management company? That's just icing on the cake, but I think it might even eclipse what I've been able to do with my rentals.  [00:09:00] Jason: Oh, I'm sure.  [00:09:01] Kelly: And there's a need for it.  [00:09:02] Jason: Yeah. Big need.  [00:09:04] Kelly: Yeah. So the biggest thing I learned, back to your question about how to vet clients, does their philosophy match mine? Do they believe their C class property could be turned into a desirable place to live? And yes, you will be charging market rent for that, which is a lot more than maybe you thought you could charge. And you'll get a better class tenant that way. Or are they just happy not doing anything to the property, just letting it be what it is and getting whoever they can get into it and, you know, getting whatever money they can for it. I don't really want to work with those people.  [00:09:38] Jason: Do you find part of this though is just selling? [00:09:41] It's like convincing them to align with your vision? Because it sounds like you have a better vision than a lot of the people that might come to you.  [00:09:48] Kelly: Sometimes when I show them the spreadsheet, of, you know, what I've done for some of my other clients, including the first one that I told you about. I mean, I really turned some of his properties around. [00:09:59] And I've tried to fire him twice. Yeah.  [00:10:01] He won't go and, you know, he's also a third of my income, so I'm going to keep him on. And, but the thing is, he's kind of listening to me now. Kind of.  [00:10:11] Sarah: He's open. Well, I think. It's like a walnut shell. We've just cracked it open. Maybe some of the good ideas are seeping through. [00:10:18] Jason: I've talked about this before, but I think also part of it is, as we've seen, you come into your own in more confidence in what you're doing and the more confident you are, the more some of these A personality types or these difficult personality types will kind of abdicate and allow you to lead them. [00:10:36] And I talk about metaphorically punching people in the face sometimes. So you probably maybe punched them in the face metaphorically a couple of times since then. And so setting those healthier boundaries. Is something we naturally do when we start to believe in ourselves more. And so what other shifts do you feel like you've noticed in Kelly? [00:10:55] Or what are some of the things that DoorGrow's helped you with? Are you making changes too?  [00:10:59] Kelly: Well, like Sarah said, a lot of the mindset stuff, I mean, a big revelation came to me when I was at DoorGrow live.  [00:11:05] Jason: Yeah, what was that?  [00:11:07] Kelly: Well, first of all, getting to DoorGrow Live was a challenge because I was in the midst of my survival mode. [00:11:13] I'm a solopreneur still. I do everything myself. My husband's my broker of record, but, like, he's off doing his thing. Sure. So.  [00:11:21] Jason: You were doing everything, you're really busy, and you're like, how do I take a break to even just go to DoorGrow Live?  [00:11:26] Kelly: Yeah, and, you know, then I've got this mindset that, you know, how can I afford it? [00:11:30] But the thing is, I did have the money to go. That's another thing. I've got a poverty mindset I need to get past. And when I went to DoorGrow Live, that was really thrown in my face. Because I was talking about the challenges of being a solopreneur. And one of the pieces of advice that I was given by one of the speakers is, "What's your time worth?" [00:11:49] You know, you can't be doing all of these things when you pay somebody. Yeah, and I thought, well, what's my time worth? And then this little voice in the back of my head said, well, not a whole heck of a lot.  [00:12:00] Jason: You told everybody that. You said, "not a whole heck of a lot."  [00:12:04] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:04] Jason: And we're like, "oh, okay."  [00:12:06] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:07] Jason: Yeah. [00:12:07] Kelly: Well, I mean, that comes from, you know, my background. I grew up without a lot.  [00:12:11] Jason: Yeah. You know,  [00:12:12] Kelly: I saw my parents struggle. They're working class people. You know, I got into an industry that was on its, you know, downslide when I, I started on the radio in you know, the early nineties, you know, probably right after it started to slide down and, you know, there've been multiple layoffs and, you know, voice tracking and automation and, you know, I survived, but I think one of the reasons I survived was I was willing to work really hard for not a whole lot of compensation. [00:12:40] Jason: Sure.  [00:12:40] Kelly: You know, as people were let go and reductions in force, I was given more duties, but not more money.  [00:12:47] Jason: Sure.  [00:12:48] Kelly: And, you know, you do that long enough, you start getting the message that, oh, well, your time really isn't worth a whole heck of a lot.  [00:12:54] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:55] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:56] Jason: Who decides what your time's worth?  [00:12:57] Kelly: I do.  [00:12:58] Jason: Yeah. I do. [00:12:59] Yes.  [00:12:59] Kelly: I do.  [00:13:00] Yeah!  [00:13:01] And, you know, that's... [00:13:02] you do now. Yes.  [00:13:03] Jason: How has that shifted for you then? What's your perception of your time and the value of it? of your time now?  [00:13:09] Kelly: My perception of my time is, you know, first of all, I don't need to be tied to the Henry Ford 40 hour work week or even the 50-60-70-80 hour work week that I hear people say you "should" do when you're running a business because, you know, it's impractical. [00:13:24] I have a daughter. She's a teenager. She's just started high school this year. She's a field hockey athlete and now she wants to be on the swim team and she's got needs. Mhm. Right? I've got a husband who does not have a cushy job I can fall back on while I do my entrepreneurial thing.  [00:13:40] Jason: Right. Right. [00:13:41] Kelly: He's also an entrepreneur. [00:13:43] We are living off self employment income. So it is a constant, you know, point of stress. So, you know, I need to find out my key productivity time, and that's when I work. And sometimes I get four or five hours a day, and that's it, of key productivity time. But then I find myself, you know, when I'm walking the dog, having all these great ideas. [00:14:06] You know, I do things like I listen to your podcast you know, some great audio books that have been recommended to me. I devoured The One Thing by Gary Keller, the Profit First book. And I'm starting to implement these ideas. And it's just sort of like they're ladder steps.  [00:14:23] Jason: So basically, little by little, you've been investing in yourself by leveraging reading, getting coaching, doing this stuff. [00:14:31] And that's translated into you valuing yourself a little bit more.  [00:14:35] Yeah.  [00:14:35] Awesome.  [00:14:36] Kelly: Absolutely. And I've learned to turn things over, like maintenance, you know, I hired one of the vendors that you recommended, Vendoroo and they're, you know, the tenants still text me with maintenance issues. [00:14:47] Sure. And I text back, "put it in the portal." Right. "If you can't put it in the portal, call this number and they'll teach you how to put it in the portal."  [00:14:55] Jason: But yeah, probably less willing to take phone calls than you were before.  [00:14:58] Kelly: Yeah, I've never really taken phone calls.  [00:15:00] Jason: That's good, that's good. [00:15:02] Kelly: Thanks me. Get it all in writing.  [00:15:04] Jason: So you went through our whole rapid revamp process as well, like with the branding and like getting everything kind of dialed in, pricing. You've implemented a lot of things. And so, has that impacted your confidence level as well?  [00:15:20] Kelly: Oh, absolutely. I really feel like, you know, I'm marketing a real brand now with Crimson Cape. [00:15:25] Jason: Yeah. What, what was it before that?  [00:15:26] Kelly: GPGH Management Company.  [00:15:29] Jason: Oh, the acronym.  [00:15:30] Kelly: Yep. Good People, Good Homes.  [00:15:32] Jason: Yeah.  [00:15:32] Kelly: You know, just to take off of that and, you know, everything was GPGH. My husband was GPGH Realty.  [00:15:38] Jason: It sounds like some sort of drug or something. What do you take in GPGH? [00:15:42] Kelly: Well, it's the right market. [00:15:44] Jason: Okay. Well, then there's that GLP 1 joke too that you could put in there. GLP 1. Yeah. But my husband actually reprinted his real estate company because of, you know, he was inspired by what I did.  [00:15:54] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What's his brand?  [00:15:56] Kelly: He's Gorilla Real Estate. That's the little stuffed gorilla you saw on the way in. [00:16:00] Jason: Okay, yeah. Yeah, and they're different, which is nice. They're not like, you know, kind of mixed together.  [00:16:06] Kelly: Right, right. And I don't want, you know, people to really associate us together, even though we do share an office.  [00:16:11] Jason: Yeah.  [00:16:12] For now.  [00:16:13] So you've gone through the branding, your pricing is different than anyone else in the market. [00:16:19] Kelly: Yeah. It's higher than anyone else in the market too. And that keeps a lot of the riffraff away.  [00:16:24] Jason: Yeah. It's better to be at the top than to be competing with the garbage at the bottom. For sure. Yeah. Especially in a difficult or lower end market. Yeah. Yeah. So awesome. What other changes?  [00:16:36] Sarah: I think, well, how many, we've gone through the rapid revamp a couple of times, so she's done the mindset piece a few times, and I think every time you go through it, you kind of get, like, an extra layer out of it, like almost like the next, like we're stacking like, levels and levels and levels of different like mindset tips and tricks, and then the perception piece, which once we're done with the little pieces on the website, we can get that launched for you. [00:17:04] I think that will make a huge difference. And recently. I mean, for the whole entirety of the time that you were in our program, you had always said "there is no way I can add more units. There is no way I can do more work. There is no way I can even focus on growth." And you are now adding new doors. [00:17:24] Kelly: Yep, I added three last week. I added another two Sunday night from a current client. I didn't know she had another double block. You know how I got those doors? She called me from you know, her poor husband is at the Cleveland Clinic. So she called me from Cleveland and she's like "I got a no heat call from this one building that you're not managing And I can't deal with it. Can you please take these units?"  [00:17:47] Jason: Nice.  [00:17:48] Kelly: So I just got two more doors.  [00:17:49] Jason: Okay.  [00:17:50] Kelly: And I'm hopefully closing on another five by the end of the week.  [00:17:53] Yes! [00:17:55] Jason: So doors are just starting to flow and you're able to dedicate time now towards growth which before you're kind of  [00:18:01] Kelly: yeah  [00:18:01] Jason: Chicken with head cut off running around and dealing with stuff. [00:18:04] Kelly: It's going to get a little iffy again now that I've added these doors, you know, okay. Now I have to onboard all these tenants. And there's a couple that come with the vacant units that they want me to rent in January?  [00:18:16] Jason: Yeah.  [00:18:17] Sarah: The best time of year here.  [00:18:21] Jason: Right. Lots of activity.  [00:18:23] Sarah: Speaking of vacant units, You have none now in the portfolio that you're Managing? [00:18:28] My current portfolio, I filled them all.  [00:18:31] Yeah, and how many did you have? Because I feel like all throughout the year I was getting updates and it was like 20 something and down a little bit, down a little bit, and now you're at zero.  [00:18:41] Kelly: Yeah, I filled I think 17 units over the course of the last year. [00:18:45] Amazing.  [00:18:46] 10 of them were filled between September and now.  [00:18:50] Jason: Nice. Wow.  [00:18:50] Kelly: And I've got a few that are coming up. I've got, you know, two of my tenants are moving into senior housing. So, you know, that means I'm probably going to have to redo their apartments because they've been living there since like 1965 or whatever. [00:19:04] I'm sure they're going to need to be some updates.  [00:19:07] Jason: So in getting this business started, if you hadn't heard about DoorGrow, or say, DoorGrow didn't exist. Where would you be you think right now?  [00:19:15] Kelly: Oh my gosh.  [00:19:16] Jason: What'd be going on?  [00:19:17] Kelly: I'm not sure I'd still be doing it.  [00:19:19] Jason: You think you would have quit?  [00:19:20] Kelly: With this client that I took on from the beginning, if I didn't know any better, I would think this is what property management is. [00:19:27] Jason: And you'd be like, yeah, right, so talking with us saying you should probably fire this client was probably enough to go, "okay, this may not be everybody."  [00:19:35] Kelly: Right. [00:19:36] Jason: Okay. [00:19:36] Kelly: Right, right. And you know, and you also helped me work with this client. So he's still my client, and he could be a very good client now that his buildings are cash flowing. But that remains to be seen because I got a little pushback on a repair last night that I wasn't real happy with, but we'll see. [00:19:53] Jason: You're going to set some strong boundaries with this guy.  [00:19:56] Kelly: I might have to punch him in the face a third time.  [00:19:58] Jason: Metaphorically. Right, right. Metaphorically, we're not advocating violence. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. Well anything else that we should chat about or cover? I mean, it's really been, like I said at the beginning, it's been inspiring and exciting to see you grow. [00:20:13] We're really excited to see where you take this and we've seen just it and that's why we do what we do. It's great to see clients just grow like you've come so far. Your whole energy is just different. Just how you are from when we saw you at DoorGrow live and you're like, well, what's your time worth? [00:20:29] And you're, you've spouted off, "well, not very much," you know, or whatever you've come a long way. And I'm really excited to see where you go with this because this could be a really great residual income business. I think absolutely it will overshadow what you're making off your rental properties, but then it also feed you some more real estate deals in the future. [00:20:47] For sure as you, as you work this. And so, yeah, I think it'll be interesting. And how does the, the king of Gorilla Real Estate feel about everything that you're doing?  [00:20:56] Kelly: Oh, he's incredibly supportive. Yeah. I think he misses when I used to just, you know, clean up his bookkeeping for him. We now have to hire someone to do that. [00:21:05] Jason: Mm-hmm. Yes. Those wealthy problems. Yeah.  [00:21:07] Kelly: And yeah, and that's another mindset thing I need to get over. And you cover this in the rapid revamp when you're talking about, you know, the three types of clients you got, your, your normals, which you're, you're aiming for.  [00:21:18] Jason: Yeah.  [00:21:18] Kelly: But then you've got, you know, your cheapos and your premiums. [00:21:21] Sure.  [00:21:21] Jason: Yeah.  [00:21:21] Kelly: And and, and one of the things you talked about, the cheapos is. Are you a cheapo?  [00:21:27] Jason: Oh. Yeah.  [00:21:27] Kelly: And I realize that, yeah, I kind of am a cheapo.  [00:21:30] Jason: You get what you attract. Huh. And so, yeah, we're blind, we have a blind spot towards which category we are showing up as, and so stretching yourself to not be a cheapo. [00:21:41] Kelly: I grew up with nothing. You know, I grew up with nothing, so, yeah, that's why I'm a cheapo.  [00:21:47] Sarah: Yeah. And I get it, because I too was in that mindset, especially when I lived here.  [00:21:52] This area is in that mindset. [00:21:54] Yes, the whole area is very, and when you find someone who kind of breaks through that bubble, It's odd here, right? [00:22:03] And it's different. And it's weird. And it's like, what are they doing? What is this all about? This is just weird. Like, why are you not, you know, normal like us? And when that was something that I had struggled with for a very, very long time, too, because back when I had lived here, I thought, "okay, well, I want to make more money. And like, I need to make more money. And the only way I can do that is I can either work more hours and maybe get some overtime or maybe I can find a job that's going to pay me more and or ask for a raise, or and this is my go to strategy, was let's just work two jobs, three jobs, four jobs." I was working four jobs at a time. [00:22:44] I was working seven days a week and I did that for years and years and years just because, well, this job I maxed out on and I can't get any more money out of here, but I need more money, so, oh, let me just add on another job. Yeah, so I understand that completely and it was just, it was with time that that started to just crack and shift a little bit. [00:23:02] Jason: Kind of the trap of time for dollars. As if that's the only way.  [00:23:07] Sarah: Absolutely. Absolutely.  [00:23:09] Jason: So yeah, so being exposed just to other people that are not of that mindset probably is cracks that glass ceiling you spoke of a little bit before maybe.  [00:23:19] Kelly: Right. Yeah. And what I'm noticing is that I'm attracting people, local people, that have a similar mindset and they exist. [00:23:28] You know, there's a lot of entrepreneurs in this area. Chris Jones started Pepper Jam, and he decided to keep his company here.  [00:23:34] Sarah: Oh, wow.  [00:23:34] Kelly: Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a few. Tech company, you might have heard of them. But yeah, there's, there's a few.  [00:23:39] Jason: So, you are no longer a cheapo.  [00:23:42] Kelly: No. I, well, I'm working on it. [00:23:45] I'm working on it. I catch myself.  [00:23:46] Jason: You say... [00:23:47] Kelly: I am no longer a cheapo.  [00:23:49] Jason: I am more normal.  [00:23:51] Kelly: I am more normal.  [00:23:52] Jason: Graduating towards premium.  [00:23:53] Kelly: And I'm graduating towards premium.  [00:23:55] Jason: It's good to be premium. We get to decide this, right? We get to decide this. [00:24:00] And so as you stretch yourself into more premium experience and recognizing, like, money is not the painful thing to be focused on, there's, and there's better things to be focused on that are more valuable and more important, like your time. And as you put a greater and greater premium on your time, you shift out of that currency of cash being the, you know, the God of your life controlling you and then you can start to be grateful. [00:24:26] And I think one of the key things for everybody listening is when we start to celebrate all of the things that we used to complain about related to money, I think this is how we shift out of that poverty mindset is, oh, we got to pay this bill. Thank you God that I have lights and power that I'm able to afford to do this. [00:24:44] Or thank you that I'm able to do this. And when we start to be grateful instead of projecting pain every time we see or hear money, And we start to project gratitude, then we start to attract more money. Like we start to be open to that. And as we shift into normal, yeah, we attract more normals. As we shift into premium, we attract more premium clients. [00:25:05] And they recognize you. It's like, there's a knowing between you and them, like, yeah, this is how it works. You come to us and we take care of everything and we take care of you and you get a premium service and product and they're like, "yeah, that's what I want." because premium buyers, when they see people that are cheapos. [00:25:20] They can like kind of smell it on you, right? So then they're like, "I don't want to work with this person. They're not going to take care of my property the way that I would want or do things or take care of me the way that I want." And so investing in ourselves. Sometimes for me, one of my coaches said, "go get a massage, you know, go do things to invest or take care of yourself to where you feel like..." you know, anything where we say, I think the poverty mindset is we hear this voice that says, " I don't need that nicer car. You don't need to go get a massage. Why do you need that?" Normal and premium is about shifting beyond need, right? Need is scarcity, need is starving, and need is survival, and so, and then what happens is we have to create drama or problems in our life in order to justify taking time off, so we have to get sick, or we have to justify it. [00:26:09] Doing something and so when we shift out of that then we shift into a healthier state where we can decide I am going to take a vacation or I am going to take time off. I'm going to go to DoorGrow live. You should all go to DoorGrow live, so.  [00:26:20] Sarah: I highly recommend coming up in May!  [00:26:23] Jason: It's coming up in May. Go to doorgrowlive.Com. So, all right anything else we should touch on?  [00:26:28] Sarah: One thing and I don't know if I've ever said this on the coach a call where you've been on but for me, it was actually Roya Mattis. She, at the time, was in Mary Kay like, and I was in cosmetic sales for Mary Kay, and It was very early in my Mary Kay career and I was kind of learning how to be entrepreneur ish, right? [00:26:53] Like, "Oh, I can write these things off and I can do things differently" and, "Oh, this is an expense, but it's a good expense." And it was a lot of new things for me. And one of the things that she had said is and I'll never forget because it just stuck with me and I went, "Oh, okay." Yeah, I need to stop thinking like that right now. [00:27:11] Is " come tax time, there are people who can't wait for tax time because they're waiting. They're depending on that refund and they're like, 'Oh, thank God I get this refund.' Right?" [00:27:21] A lot of rent gets caught up in it. [00:27:23] It sure does. Yeah. Funny. All of a sudden they have money. So. Once you start really making money, though, you don't get refunds anymore. [00:27:33] What ends up happening is you pay money. And not only do you pay money into it, but you now are, like, quarterly paying money. But you don't have to do that if you're, like, barely scraping by, if you're not making money. So, what she said to me is, " when you're, like, rich and you're making money You're excited to pay this money because you're making so much money that now, not only are not going to get a refund, but you don't, you don't worry about the refund, you're making money and now you're paying the taxes and you are going to hit a point where you want to be paying taxes more often than just once a year because that means you've reached a certain level and now you're making a certain amount of money and your goal at that point is then going to be, 'well, how can I increase this?'" [00:28:24] And that for me, it just stuck in my head forever. And I went, "Oh. Oh, geez. I didn't even realize that." And at that time I was, I was. Like, "well, I'm going to get a couple thousand dollars back, like on my tax refund." I haven't gotten a refund in years. And it's true though. It's just a different way of thinking about things. [00:28:40] It's like, well, you know, if you make this tiny little bit of money and then I can get, you know, a couple thousand dollars back at the end of the year, or I can make a whole lot more money. And then, yes, I have to make some quarterly tax payments. Man, I'd rather make a lot more money and I'll just give the government some of it. [00:28:54] And then what you have to do is just figure out how can we reduce that as much as possible.  [00:28:59] Jason: I would love to see taxes just be reduced dramatically. So, we'll see.  [00:29:04] Kelly: But, who knows what they're going to do.  [00:29:05] Jason: I don't get super excited about paying taxes, but I do get excited. I would rather, like, see more income on my tax return. [00:29:13] You know taxes every time so.  [00:29:14] Sarah: Would you rather make the big amount of money so that you have to pay the taxes in or would you make a really small amount of money so that you get a refund?  [00:29:22] Kelly: Yeah, just a really good accountant that can help you zig when the government zags  [00:29:26] Sarah: So that that was something that she said to me and I went oh, okay, that is a very different way of thinking about it. [00:29:33] And it just, just stuck with me.  [00:29:35] Jason: Yeah. Always looking through the lens of 'why is this positive?' it's a healthy mindset for sure. Yeah. Why are taxes positive? All right. Everybody listening is like, "they're not."  [00:29:45] Sarah: I know. Right. Cool. My brother wants a shout out. So shout out to Jason.  [00:29:50] Jason: What's up, Jason? [00:29:51] Sarah: He's like, "you never shout me out!" Here, here you are. The three of us are waving to you now. So, what's up, Jason?  [00:29:58] Jason: No, he's got the same name as me. Everybody's like, what's that all about?  [00:30:01] He's dating a Sarah.  [00:30:03] Kelly: Oh!  [00:30:04] Jason: Which is funny. And you have a stepsister, that's Sarah, so he's got two, three Sarahs in his life right now. [00:30:13] Three Sarahs, two Jasons, and a partridge in a pear tree. All right. Cool. Well, Kelly, it's been great coming to hang out in your office and to meet you in person like here in Pennsylvania. Thanks for hosting the DoorGrow show and having us hang out with you and we're excited to see where you go and how you progress in the program and all the things you're going to do as you add doors. [00:30:36] And I think the future is really bright for Crimson Property Management, Crimson Cape. Hey, I missed the Cape. It's like superhero stuff here. Yes. I am. I love it. All right. And that's it. So if you are tuning in, make sure to check us out at DoorGrow. com. And if you are wanting to grow your property management business, or you are getting burnt out on it, or you are one of the many sucky property management companies that exist, you don't have to be. [00:31:04] It could be good. It could be better. Then reach out to us. We would love to help you scale and grow your business. We help people from startup all the way to breaking the thousand door barrier. Whatever your goal is reach out to us. Check us out at DoorGrow. com. Bye everyone.  [00:31:18] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:31:45] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In over a decade of coaching and working with property management entrepreneurs, we have realized that the mindset stuff is often more impactful than the tactics and strategy. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss some of their favorite mindset hacks for property management business owners. You'll Learn [03:09] Having a Bad Mindset [11:15] Hiring and the Process Myth [13:28] Limiting Your Own Growth [16:18] Shifting Your Mindset [21:59] The Myth of Needing to be Happy Tweetables “If you really want to grow your business, you have to get off of this high horse of you being special.” “Whatever you believe is going to be true.” “You can either have excuses or you can have wins and results.” “A lot of times we can't see the future. We know our current past and the past doesn't always equal the future.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: If you believe that you're special and nothing applies to you and nothing will work in your market, you're going to be right. [00:00:07] But if I get the right client that has an open mind in your market, I can help them crush you.  [00:00:13] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:33] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income at DoorGrow. [00:00:56] We are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull. [00:01:17] Now let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:20] So today we're going to be talking about mindset. This is this distinguishing, determining factor between clients having success or business owners having success and business owners that don't, even if you know all the tactics. And a lot of times people come to us for the tactics and they think, "Oh man, if I could just learn the right things to do, I'll suddenly have success." [00:01:43] But in the end, when I asked clients, "what really made the difference? What did you really get from us, from DoorGrow?" The usual answer historically has been, "you've shifted how I think about things. You've shifted my mindset." And mindset is probably what's holding you back more than just tactics. [00:02:00] Now, this is what we're going to talk about. Before we get. Into this, I want to share a sponsor that we have for this episode. Vendoroo really cool tech company. If you are tired of the constant stress and hassle of maintenance coordination, meet Vendoroo, your AI- driven, in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish, triaging, troubleshooting vendor selection and coordination. Built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations where every dollar is accounted for and every task is handled with unmatched reliability. Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today by going to Vendoroo. ai So that's V E N D O R like vendor and then O O. Vendoroo.ai/ DoorGrow and experience maintenance done right. And we've got clients already getting great results with them. I think this is like the next awesome big thing. So go check them out. Okay. So let's talk about mindset and let's first, let's show some contrast, right? Sometimes we get some clients and they don't have good mindset. What do you notice with those clients?  [00:03:13] Sarah: They always get stuck. They overthink everything. Everything just seems hard or harder than it has to be. A lot of times these are the clients that are like, "this isn't possible." It's like, "yeah, Sarah, I know that's how you ran your business, but like, I just can't do it that way. It's not possible in my market." So there's been a lot of I feel like it's justification. "Well, why isn't this possible for me? Like if Sarah can run her business that way, if like Jeff Garner can run his business that way, like if other people can run businesses the way that I would like to, but it just doesn't seem to be happening for me. There must be a reason, right?" So then there's a lot of justification. That's what I see.  [00:03:55] Jason: Yeah. So they'll be like, "this won't work for me or this won't work in my market." [00:03:59] Sarah: "My clients would never..."  [00:04:01] Jason: "my clients would never go for that." Yeah.  [00:04:03] Sarah: "They would never do it that well."  [00:04:05] Jason: There's kind of this attitude of superiority that they just know more than everybody else. "There's no way, even though it's worked for countless others in a variety of different markets, there's no way it would work for me because I am so special and my market is so special." Let me tell you, you're not that special. Nobody's that special that things are not going to work for you that have been proven and time tested to work. That's the case. And so if you really want to grow your business, you have to get off of this high horse of you being special. "Well, I'm so special. My situation is so special. I'm so unique." And as long as people hold on to this myth that they're so special, that means nothing else applies to them. Nothing else can work for them. And so they stay stuck in their dysfunction and bottom line, the thing I think that's really important for people to look at when evaluating their current situation and whether their mindset might be off or not is just look at reality. [00:05:05] Look at your results. Results do not lie. If you have not grown significantly over the last year, your results are shit. Your results suck. Bottom line.  [00:05:16] Sarah: Did we trade places today? Are you the bad guy today?  [00:05:19] Jason: Maybe.  [00:05:20] Sarah: That means I have to play good guy? I can't play good cop.  [00:05:22] Jason: We can both be bad cop today.  [00:05:24] Sarah: I don't know how to play bad or good cop. I can only be bad cop.  [00:05:26] Jason: We're both bad cops against bad mindset. I mean Here's the thing, like whatever you believe is going to be true. That's what I think. So if you believe it's tough, you're right. If you believe that you're special and nothing applies to you and nothing will work in your market, you're going to be right. [00:05:46] But if I get the right client that has an open mind in your market, I can help them crush you. I can help them like totally destroy you. Like your business. They could acquire you. They could eat your business for lunch because they're willing to believe something different. And so take a look at your beliefs because your beliefs create your results. [00:06:07] And if you don't like your results, your beliefs are garbage. Bottom line, and this is the tough love dad and me coming out. Like if you don't like your current results in life, you don't like the clients you're dealing with. You don't like the tenants you're dealing with. You don't like your business. [00:06:23] You probably have a crappy belief system, which means you are not setting healthy boundaries. You're tolerating too much abuse. Maybe you've got some past trauma that led to this. I don't know, but you need to change your thinking and you need to change your story because your story creates your results and you cannot change your results dramatically and keep your old shitty story and your old excuses. [00:06:45] You can either have excuses or you can have wins and results. You can't have both. You've got to change the story. And so really healthy mindset is a process where people are continually evaluating their own beliefs and their own story to, to just decide and ask the question, "is this serving me? Is this getting me what I want?"  [00:07:08] "If not, then I can choose to change it. I can choose to believe differently about that situation that happened to me in the past. I can choose to believe differently about my market. I can choose to believe differently and find evidence to the contrary or figure out what works." [00:07:22] And if you're trying to do it all on your own, it's kind of like trying to look at the back of your own head. This is the challenge is if you don't have good mindset, you need to go be around somebody that can install a healthier belief system into your brain. This is what we do at DoorGrow. In every training that we have, I'm not so secretly injecting new mindset into your brain because in order for you to take action on the things I need you to take action on, I've got to get you to understand it and believe something different or you won't do it. And I think this is one of my areas of genius, I think, historically, is I've been pretty good at persuading people to actually believe in themselves. [00:08:02] I've been pretty good at persuading people to actually think a little bit differently about a subject so that I can get them to do crazy stuff, like completely overhaul their pricing with their existing clients. They're like, "no, it'll hurt them, they'll be upset," you know, "they'll all cancel," whatever. And then they're making more money, right? [00:08:19] Or getting them to change their business name. "No, this is my baby. You called it ugly and said it needs plastic surgery." No, right? So their branding or whatever it is, we get them to think differently, which, gets them to take different actions. And you are the person creating your current results with your actions because of your current mindset. [00:08:40] All right, that's my soapbox rant. This is a good place for me to share our next sponsor. And then we'll get into how to install healthy mindset  [00:08:47] Sarah: and yell at you some more  [00:08:49] Jason: Do it! Get good mindset. What's wrong with you people? All right, cool And we're going to talk about some healthy mindset things And maybe challenge some of the beliefs you have we'll do that and this won't take too long. [00:08:59] Our next sponsor for this episode is True Submeter. This is some cool technology. Attention, multi family property owners and managers! Discover True Submeter, the number one water submetering company in the US. Say goodbye to water use abuse by your tenants and hello to billing for exact water consumption with no unit minimum, enjoy smart, cost effective solutions designed to optimize your property's operations and save you money. Plus get an exclusive 10 percent discount with the code doorgrow10. DoorGrow 1 0, use that code. Visit truesubmeter. com today for intelligent utility solutions and substantial savings. That's truesubmeter. com. So this is a cool tech actually for small plexes and yeah.  [00:09:50] Sarah: I would have loved that on my multifamily because that was so irritating. You have to try to like increase the rent to offset the water cost, but how much is the water cost going to be? And then sometimes you price yourself out with the rent being too high and You can't track. [00:10:04] You just can't. And then every once in a while, you get the tenant like I had, you know who you are, who just ran the sink for fun because she was pissed. Yeah, that was great. Oh, man. Oh, I hated her so much. Yeah, you, like, man, I wish I had that true submeter device on her, like a bill for that.  [00:10:23] Yeah, she would just run the sink, she would turn on the water, she would walk away, it would flood the apartment downstairs and it would jerk up the water bill. [00:10:30] Yeah oh, yeah, it was great market I was in guys. It was so fun. I miss it every day  [00:10:35] Jason: Wow Okay. You good?  [00:10:37] Sarah: I think so. All right.  [00:10:38] Jason: Can we move on? Yeah. All right. We're going to talk about healthy mindset. [00:10:42] Sarah: This is a great episode. You're cute.  [00:10:44] Jason's yelling at people. I'm yelling at people. This is a good one.  [00:10:47] Jason: Okay. Healthy mindset. I'll give you some examples. I actually, because I kept having clients say, like I would say, what was the best part of our program? Or, you know, things like this. And they would say mindset. [00:10:58] And I was like, what? I don't even have anything about mindset I didn't think. It's just kind of what I do. It's built in, but I actually then created a training. I'm like, "I'm going to create a training that's legitimately mindset stuff." So I have a training called mindset secrets. So let me share some mindset ideas. [00:11:15] One of the things that I've noticed in negative mindset is one really unhealthy mindset that would shift everything for property management business owners I see happen, especially between the stage of going from a hundred to 200 doors is this mindset that "I need to hire and build the team around the business" and it's so unconscious. [00:11:37] It's just so wired. "Oh, like the business is getting stressful. I need to get a team member" and we just hire based on what the business needs instead of what we need. And so this is where I see business owners end up in two to 400 door range and they're more miserable than they've ever been and they stop focusing on growth and getting doors or they can't because adding more doors makes their life painful and they are more miserable in their business than they've ever been. [00:12:03] I talk to people every week that are in this situation there and we've signed like how many businesses in the last two weeks did we sign up in our mastermind? Like seven. Yeah. Something like this. The majority of them are in our super system tier of our mastermind because they're dealing with this problem. [00:12:21] This problem. And they're not happy. They don't have a rockstar team. They have sometimes an okay team, or they have a terrible team where they've really struggled with hiring. And they think they have a good team, but then they think, "well, we just need better processes." Let me tell you, if you think your biggest problem is you just need more processes so you can handle growth, you don't have a good team. Your team is not the team that you need. A good team can still perform amazingly without process documentation. They will figure it out.  [00:12:52] I call this the process myth. [00:12:53] This is really unhealthy mindset. You cannot out process bad team members. And you cannot build the right team around the wrong person. So if you are showing up in the business still wearing hats you don't enjoy wearing, still doing things you don't enjoy doing, you then are building the wrong team by default. [00:13:09] If you still wear a bunch of different hats you don't enjoy wearing and you have an entire team, you have the wrong team. Period. This is bad mindset because you haven't been taking care of yourself. You haven't been building the business around you because you're probably not even clear on you and what you really want. [00:13:24] And so that's caused this problem. So that's mindset. Another mindset issue. People come to me and I'm like, "what do you want?" They're like, "I want to grow, but maybe only to about 250 units or 300 units. I hear this all the time. It's like they, they have a cap." What would you say about that? [00:13:39] You've heard me talk.  [00:13:40] Sarah: So that's one of the things that I think it really holds people back. And if you're limiting yourself right out of the gate, then you're not, first of all, you're not living up to your full potential clearly. But in addition to that you're creating the glass ceiling. That we're all, like, pissed and fighting about. [00:14:01] It's like, you know when you get a job and they're like, "Oh yeah, but this role, it maxes out at this salary. Like, you can't make any more. This is, like, the top. Okay? So, no matter how great of a job I do, I can't just make more?" Well, no. That's, like, you would have to get promoted, or move laterally to a different role, and that's how you would make more money. Oh, well, you're creating that for yourself now. You're putting a limitation on yourself and your business. And then what happens is it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. And that's where you get stuck. And sometimes you can't even reach that because you know that it's the end. So sometimes you're like, "okay, I want to get to like 250, 250 would be like really good. Then you can't even get to 250 because your brain already knows it's done at 250. Especially if you're Power and Achievement. If you're Power and Achievement and you say, "Okay, 250 and then I'm going to stop." Your brain will literally never let you stop. Because you have to keep winning if you're Power and Achievement. [00:15:03] And once you hit 250 and then you're done, then you're done winning. Your brain is going to go, Nope, not for me. Not doing that. I'll play in that game.  [00:15:11] Jason: So what I've noticed is our brains were really good at kind of creating and predicting the future. I mean, if I asked you right now, imagine what you could be at in a year and what you could be doing. [00:15:22] Like you can instantly come up with something. And so the problem is when I ask people what their goals are, instead of just thinking of the ultimate amazing possibility, they think of the pain. There's part of us that always focuses on, "well, I want this great outcome, but I also know there's going to be some pain involved. [00:15:42] And so they have this false mindset that adding more doors is also going to be, which is, can be true, which is true for people that end up in the second stand trap. And so they're a little bit like magical and seeing the future. They can see their future that somewhere between two to 400 units, life's not going to be as good for them. [00:16:01] And it's going to get hard. And so part of healthy mindset is being exposed to a different possibility. So here's a different possibility for everybody that thinks that would be the max level pain that they could tolerate would be maybe 250 units, 300 units or whatever. I want you to ask yourself this question. [00:16:18] Do you think it could be possible that if you do it the right way, that the more doors you add. Every door you add, the more doors you add, the more money you could have and the better the team members you could get and the easier your business could get over time. Could you see a possibility in which a thousand doors, managing a thousand door business could be easier for you as a CEO than managing a hundred? [00:16:44] I think most of us can see that's possible, but if you don't know how, then that's why you would maybe come to DoorGrow. Like, we would help you see that future. We would help paint how that's going to map out and how that's going to work so that it can become a reality. But a lot of times we can't see the future. [00:16:59] We know our current past and the past doesn't always equal the future. It does if you don't get some sort of injection of something new, you don't bring something new into your space, some new ideas, a new mindset. And this is why it's very important to be around people that have health mindset. I think that's one of the best benefits of our mastermind is that it's full of people that are around Growers, full of people that are believers. [00:17:22] It's full of people that are optimistic, that believe in potential and possibility. They're growth minded and not everybody out there growth minded. There's a lot of worn down, sad property management business owners and they won't admit it. You might be one of them. They won't admit it, but there's a lot of them and they would love to get out of the business. [00:17:45] They just can't see a way out. I've had clients we just signed up that wanted out of their business. And as soon as they can paint a picture of how they can stay in the business and that selling it may not be the only way to escape the shittiness that they're experiencing, that they also could just change how they're running their business and do different types of exits. [00:18:08] They can exit some of the frontline work. They don't have to sell the whole business. And that the business can be good because mindset wise, they are off, right? And I just show them the possibility. I show them evidence. I show them results from people that have done this. I share testimonies of people that had felt exactly how they did.  [00:18:27] So I had, it was an interesting experience yesterday. I signed up a client in the morning that wanted to get rid of her business. [00:18:35] She hated it. And the husband wanted to like keep it and she was miserable and I helped paint a picture of possibility of a different future that we could create. And I was excited to her, like emotionally, she was like, it got her. And she was like, "yeah, let's do this." Ironically, I had a call later that afternoon with Annemarie Sunde. [00:18:55] If you go back and like, check out her podcast episode, this was a past client. She eventually sold her business. She did exit the business eventually, but when she first came to me, it was the same story. So I told her the story and she's like, "Oh my gosh, I have so much to say about that." But it was the same story. [00:19:11] Annemarie came to me and was like, "I hate my business. I want to sell it. I want to get out of it. And after listening to her," I just said, "you're just doing it wrong." Like, let's just change what you're doing. And she was letting me know on this call yesterday, just catching me up on her life, like how grateful she was and and what she's up to now. [00:19:29] And it's awesome to see that contrast. Because I've helped so many clients get out of that spot where they hate their business and they're miserable. There's no question. I know it's super possible that we can change how they show up in their business and we can change their mindset and things can be really good. [00:19:47] And that gets me really excited. I'm excited for them because I know what's on the other side. They don't know it. They just have hope. And sometimes that's all people need to shift their mindset is an injection of hope. So come over to DoorGrow. We'll give you a little bit of hopium. We'll throw some hope in your face and get you to start to believe in some possibility that's, and that'll shift your mindset. [00:20:07] So what other mindset things?  [00:20:09] I [00:20:09] Sarah: think the only other thing I would add to it is going back to your story and your excuses and everybody, this is what I'm realizing is everybody kind of is going through their own shit for most of us. It's not easy, right? Like, we don't just grow up having everything that we want and life just gives us the perfect scenario all the time and it's rainbows and butterflies and everything's just perfect all the time. [00:20:40] It's just not reality for most people. We grow because of the things that we've been through. And I think that the best thing you can do is realize that first of all, you're not alone in it and second, it's what you do with it that really makes a difference. That's what counts. It's not the shitty thing that happened to you. [00:21:02] It's what you do with that because you can have this horrible, awful thing happen to you. We all do and then go, "okay, that's the reason. That's the reason I don't feel love in my life. That's the reason I can't run a successful business. That's the reason I'll never make money. That's the reason I can't have a great relationship or great friendships. That's why I don't trust people. That's why I can't do this. That's why I can't do that." Or you can take that and say, "you know what? That's the reason I'm going to do it anyway. That's the reason that I am going to be successful. That's the reason that I am going to have trust in people, earned trust." [00:21:41] Right. It's like it's what you do with it that makes the difference.  [00:21:46] Jason: What you decide about it and what you decide about what it means, and you can decide, yeah, that it makes you a victim or you can decide that it taught you valuable lessons and empowered you. For sure. I love that. That's good mindset. [00:21:57] People listen to her. I think one of my favorite things I've been thinking about lately is a lot of times people, mindset wise, a lot of times people think the goal is to be happy. And I think that's a really shitty goal. I, ironically, I know, people are like what's wrong with that? I think people mistakenly think the goal of life is just to be happy all the time. [00:22:18] And so every moment they're not happy, they're not experiencing this one set of emotion that they think that there's something wrong with life. And I think a healthier mindset is that life should be full. You should experience a fullness. You should experience everything. Life is beautiful in its totality, if you are willing to experience everything. Can you imagine a life where you never felt lost? You never felt sorrow? There's beauty in all these things. I have a friend whose father just passed. And I was just thinking about that, you know, and she wrote about like what she's realizing, how she hasn't shown up for people that are grieving, didn't know how to, and she's like made a little list of the things that she thought would be beneficial to those, you know, in the future for people to know about those grieving and like what they would want. And it may be a bit different for everybody, but I think the point of life is to be able to experience everything. And that's where I think things get beautiful. There's some beauty in missing someone. [00:23:20] There's some beauty in wanting something that you don't have. There's beauty in feeling sorrow. There's beauty in feeling loss. And if we're always trying to just manipulate things so that we can only experience one thing, we're going to be way less happy, I believe. [00:23:34] And we're going to be way more focused on all the lack and the loss. And we're just unwilling to experience all these different emotions. Who's to say that a happy emotion is better than a sad emotion. They're just different emotions. And maybe we're supposed to be experiencing everything all the time and not trying to control it, just being willing to experience. [00:23:55] And when we're willing to fully experience things, and we're actually in the present moment, instead of in the future, worrying about things or in the past, worrying about stuff that's happened. We're actually in this moment, we're far more likely to experience the good stuff, but we're experienced everything real time. [00:24:10] So that's a mindset thing that I've been kind of chewing on me in noticing other people because I see people so caught up in their own misery that they're not experienced all happiness all the time. And there's so much beauty around them that they're missing out on in their relationships and their connections. [00:24:25] This was just so focused on staring at the garbage. So that's my little mindset bit for today. So if you don't feel like you have the right mindset, you feel like things are unnecessarily hard. You don't feel like you're growing. Maybe you still are like, "man, Jason, I still really isn't in tactics." [00:24:45] Cool. We can help you with that. Come check us out over at DoorGrow. Let's have a conversation and see if we might be able to help you out and figures your situation out and see if we can help you grow. Set up a call with us that won't hurt. It won't hurt anything like set up a call with us and we will help you figure out if this would be a good fit for you or not. [00:25:03] And we only want people in our program that this is something that's really going to benefit them and it's going to be a good fit for you. So we're careful and I know you, you want to be careful. And so let's have a conversation, reach out to us. You check us out at doorgrow.Com and if you're wanting to join our free online community, our Facebook group. [00:25:21] Called the DoorGrow club, which is just for property management entrepreneurs, your team members, just entrepreneurs, the business owners go to DoorGrow club. com and you can join through there. And that's it until next time everybody, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone [00:25:38] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:26:05] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Brodie answers these PHT questions:Sandrine: Two weeks leading to race day I typically stop all lower body strength exercises. That is when I sometimes feel a little ache in the proximal hamstring. Now I do some deadlifts which helped up to a week leading to race day. I know body weight exercises like squats will not help but I want to hear your thoughts about body weight squats leading to race day?Lara: Any issues with strength training quads and glutes while rehabbing pht?Jeff: Does sitting prevent healing from PHT?  If I have a desk job with PHT, should I invest in a standing desk?Michelle: For those of us who are recovering from proximal hamstring tendon tears how do we prevent future tears or inflammation?Jason: Do you think some people have a genetic disposition to tendonopathies, I'm currently going through PHT and have had various other tendonopathies throughout my life.Siân: I would love to hear your thoughts on whether some of us are more at risk of tendon issues than others. I read that women are at higher risk when we get to peri/menopause too. Thoughts? What can I do to prevent any more?Patrick:Anything about ischial bursitis/swelling of the sit bone

"Our 100th Episode..."  In December 2016, I uttered the immortal words to Jason: "Do you fancy starting a podcast?" Just over six years, and 99 episodes later, the Ambitious Lifestyle Business podcast is about to hit the 100 episode milestone - something that seemed impossible when I felt like quitting after 6 months. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - consistency is a superpower.  How did we get to 100 episodes? One episode at a time, one month at a time. We found a way to make it easy. We mastered the art of showing up, every single month. We made it FUN. Including THIS special, 100th episode, recorded in front of a live audience of listeners and previous guests. Here's to the next century!

Kyler Murray's monetary value to the NFL far surpasses his physical stature in the league. Murray's athleticism is hypnotic and can be replicated only within the binary world of video games. It reminds Jason of another athlete with dynamic skills in a diminutive package, NBA star Allen Iverson. “Right now, Kyler Murray is football's Allen Iverson. You might read that analogy as high praise. It's not,” Jason says. “Iverson won an MVP trophy, but never won an NBA title. … I enjoy watching Kyler Murray. I don't envision him winning a Super Bowl.” The Arizona Cardinals attempted to put a study clause in Murray's contract. Jason fully expects to see him openly mocking the idea of practice the same way Iverson famously has. "Fearless" soldiers T.J. Moe and Steve Kim join Jason for a discussion of the biggest headlines around the NFL, including Tua's turnaround in Miami and what it says about former Dolphins coach Brian Flores. Former “Last Chance U” star Jason Brown returns to the show. Jason asks whether his opinion of Kyler Murray changed after Sunday's spectacular comeback win. His answer will surprise you. Plus, Jason prepares the eulogy for HBO's “House of the Dragon,” declaring the show is dead to him. We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jason brought the heat in this week's Firestarters. Torching former Fox Sports colleague Shannon Sharpe for his attack on Brett Favre, Joe Biden for leading the way for the Black KKK and Viola Davis' latest film ‘The Woman King' for its rewriting of history to further the black matriarchal and BLM agenda. We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The marketing campaign for "The Woman King" says it's based on true events. Jason says it's actually a work of make-believe carefully crafted in the BLM factory in Hollywood. “Factual history tells a much different story than the fantasy spun in 'The Woman King.' In the movie, General Nanisca convinces King Ghezo to abandon the slave trade and the female warriors thwart the white colonizers. It's all fantasy. The French routed the Amazon warriors and the British forced Dahomey to give up the slave trade in the 1850s.” It's simple to see the real goal of the film. “History isn't the point of 'The Woman King.' Message is. The movie is on message. Men are evil.” "Fearless" soldiers Shemeka Michelle and Delano Squires join the show to discuss this work of matriarchal propaganda, complete with its ode to the greatest female warrior of our time: Breonna Taylor.    We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com    ​​Today's Sponsors: Pre-Born has a passion to save unborn babies from abortion and see women come to Christ. Help rescue babies' lives. Donate by dialing #250 and say keyword, "BABY."  That's #250, keyword, "BABY." OR - go to https://Preborn.org/Fearless. You can get a FREE report with all the details of how adding Bank On Yourself to your financial plan can help you take back control of your money. Just go to https://BankOnYourself.com/FEARLESS. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Over the last 70 years, partially in reaction to the murder of Emmett Till, white people have been programmed to reduce their racial animus toward black people. Democrats won't tell black people that historical fact. They keep black voters loyal by telling them that nothing has changed since 1955. Decades of leftist policies have bred racial hatred, driven fathers from the home, replaced God with government, and created the black KKK. “America has adopted a different custom and a different racial animus. The culture rewards and abets anti-white racial animus. Racist political elites, primarily members of the Democratic Party, have once again rigged the system to favor a specific group based on skin color.” Jason says. “Even worse, Democrats have convinced black people that religious faith and biblical morality should be abandoned for political power. When you add in the destruction of the nuclear family, you've created a lethal Molotov cocktail of racial destruction.” Case in point, female rapper TNFW Nique and her latest song celebrating abortion. "Fearless" soldier Dave Shannon joins Jason to add his perspective as a father raising children in today's culture. This week's edition of "Tennessee Harmony" brings us Pastor Anthony Walker and Shemeka Michelle discussing the inclusion of secular artists in Christian music. Does it advance the kingdom or just the culture?    We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com    ​​Today's Sponsor: Switch today with Patriot Mobile! Get the same great nationwide coverage while supporting the conservative values you believe in. Go to https://PATRIOTMOBILE.COM/JASON or call 972-PATRIOT. Nugenix Total T is the number one selling testosterone booster at GNC. Text “FEARLESS” to 231-231 and get a bottle of Nugenix Thermo, their most powerful fat incinerator ever, with key ingredients to help you get back into shape fast… ABSOLUTELY FREE! Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Another day, another rapper dead. PnB Rock was gunned down during a robbery attempt at a restaurant in Los Angeles. Jason asks the question: Is being a rapper the deadliest job on the planet? The first lady of "Fearless" Shemeka Michelle joins the show to offer her thoughts on the matter and to discuss Hillary Clinton's conversation with Megan Thee Stallion and Eminem's #1 spot on the Christian music charts. Steve Kim is back to talk about Denver's debacle in Seattle and how Broncos coach Nathaniel Hackett emasculated Russell Wilson. Plus, Delano Squires joins Jason to discuss America's crisis of “prodigal fathers” and the trickle-down impact of a fatherless society. We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com   ​​Today's Sponsor: Pre-Born has a passion to save unborn babies from abortion and see women come to Christ. Help rescue babies' lives. Donate by dialing #250 and say keyword, "BABY."  That's #250, keyword, "BABY." OR - go to https://Preborn.org/Fearless. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Sunday Night Football was supposed to be like "Top Gun: Maverick" for the football fans. America's quarterback, Tom Brady, vs. America's team, the Dallas Cowboys. But for Cowboys fans, it was just a rerun of the horror show that has been Dak Prescott's tenure in Big D. The Cowboys couldn't manage a touchdown, and an injured Prescott exited the game to a chorus of boos and a shower of trash from the fans. Jason says the Cowboys' struggles are directly tied to Prescott's $160 million dollar contract. “Dak Prescott will regret forcing Jerry Jones to give him a $160 million contract a year ago. The big contract comes with big expectations and a lack of sympathy.” Jason argues that overpaying Dak has left deficiencies elsewhere that have hurt Dallas' chances at being a contender. "Fearless" soldier Steve Kim joins the conversation as Jason navigates all the top stories from NFL week one, including Aaron Rodgers' struggles, growing criticism of Kyler Murray, and the debate over who is the more impressive QB: Chiefs' Patrick Mahomes or Bills' Josh Allen. Jill Savage joins the show to discuss the drama surrounding Tom Brady and Gisele's marriage and finds herself at odds with Jason's opinion on the matter. Plus, Jason, Steve, and Jill are joined by Lauren Chen and Tiffany Odom to review the latest episode of HBO's "House of the Dragon." We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com   ​​Today's Sponsor: Lock in your price on all the meat you buy. When you subscribe, your price is locked in for life! A year from now, when meat goes up by another 20%, 30%, or 50%, this will be the thing you wished you had done. Use my code “FEARLESS”, or visit https://GoodRanchers.com/FEARLESS and get your box $30 off plus free shipping! Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

South Carolina coach Dawn Staley canceled a series of games with BYU following allegations of racism against the Cougars fans. Jason exposes her hypocrisy and suggests a different team she should cancel if she actually cared about her team's well-being. Memphis is a murderous hellscape. Why has the “Birthplace of Rock & Roll” become the final resting place for so many? Jason connects the dots between the culture and the killings. Plus, BYU found no validity to Duke player Rachel Richardson's allegations of a fan hurling racial slurs her way. Jason and T.J. Moe translate the latest statements from both universities. We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com   ​​Today's Sponsor: If you're not yet a subscriber, now's a great time to become one! Go to https://blazetv.com & use the promo code “Fearless20”, for $20 your first year of BlazeTV. Offer valid through this Sunday September 11th. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Weeks following Duke volleyball player Rachel Richardson's alleged reception of racial comments during a match at BYU, the Cougar administration has concluded it never happened. In a statement, BYU officials said they weren't able to corroborate Richardson's claim and even lifted the ban on the special needs fan that Richardson and her teammates tried to pin the incident on. Jason and "Fearless" soldier T.J. Moe review statements from both schools and discuss the lessons we should take away from the latest racist hoax. Alex Stein's favorite big-booty Latina has landed on the cover of GQ Magazine. Alex's antics helped to establish Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez as a sex symbol and now cover model, but does she thank him? Primetime joins "Fearless" to discuss AOC's snub. Plus, the persecution of Trump supporters continues with new charges against former White House strategist Steve Bannon. Royce White joins Jason and T.J. to lay out what Bannon's arrest should signal to the rest of America. We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com   ​​Today's Sponsor: If you're not yet a subscriber, now's a great time to become one! Go to https://blazetv.com & use the promo code “Fearless20”, for $20 your first year of BlazeTV. Offer valid through this Sunday September 11th. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $20 off your yearly subscription. Offer only valid until September 11th. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Memphis, Tennessee is one of the most dangerous places on the planet. Last week, a 34 year old mother and kindergarten teacher Eliza Fletcher was kidnapped and murdered by a convicted felon while out jogging. On Wednesday, a 19 year old repeat offender live streamed his murderous rampage on Facebook. What has turned the birthplace of Rock & Roll into the epicenter of urban violence? “When trying to make sense of the criminal violence ravaging Memphis, it's important to recognize that culture kills, not color.” Jason says. “Black people have embraced a culture of death.” The city that celebrated the life of deceased rapper Young Dolph as the second coming of young Elvis explains the problem with the culture. His successor is his cousin, Jay Fizzle, a 28-year-old deadbeat with more than 20 kids. “‘Baby mama' culture produces 19-year-olds who live-stream their killing sprees. The destruction of family destroys all morals, norms, and order.” Fearless soldiers Shemeka Michelle and Delano Squires join Jason to discuss the cultural aspects fueling the crimes and destruction. Plus, the NFL season kickoffs tonight with the Rams & Bills. Steve Kims drops in to talk football and why Tom Brady may be headed back to retirement if Gisele has her way. We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com   ​​Today's Sponsor: CrowdHealth gives you a new way to pay for healthcare. Go to https://JOINCROWDHEALTH.com right now and get your first 6 months for just $99 per month by using promo code FEARLESS. Support Conservative Voices! If you're not yet a subscriber, now's a great time to become one! Go to https://blazetv.com & use the promo code “Fearless20”, for $20 your first year of BlazeTV. Offer valid through this Sunday September 11th. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Duke Volleyball's Rachel Richardson sparked controversy when she claimed a BYU fan repeatedly called her the N-word; turns out she may be the new Jussie Smollett. In the most bizarre speech in American presidential history, Joe Biden did his best Hitler impersonation and declared war on half of America. Plus, Aaron Rodgers made headlines with Joe Rogan when he admitted to intentionally misleading the NFL over his vaccination status. Jason says Rodgers' steadfast resolve against the COVID narrative makes him the most dangerous man in sports. We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In a bizarre speech purposely saturated with authoritarian artistry, President Joe Biden declared Trump supporters as threats to democracy and enemies of the state. Silhouetted in red light, reminiscent of a comic book villain, Biden spoke out against political violence and painted MAGA Republicans as rage-filled agents of chaos. “If Trump had come out in some lighting that made him appear like the devil speaking from the pits of hell, demonizing half of America, demonizing all of his political opponents with marines standing behind him, you know what they would be saying.” Jason breaks down Biden's totalitarian tirade as only a "Fearless" soldier can. Trump's apprentice, Arizona gubernatorial candidate Kari Lake is always up for a good debate, but so far, her opponent in November's election Katie Hobbs is ducking her. Kari joins Jason to discuss how Hobbs' cowardice and her racism is costing the state. Plus, oppressed billionaire Jay-Z says that “capitalist” is a new racial slur. Shemeka Michelle help us try to “Make It Make Sense” We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com ​​Today's Sponsor: Lock in your price on all the meat you buy. When you subscribe, your price is locked in for life! A year from now, when meat goes up by another 20%, 30%, or 50%, this will be the thing you wished you had done. Use my code “FEARLESS”, or visit https://GoodRanchers.com/FEARLESS and get your box $30 off plus free shipping! Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For the first time since his firing, former Las Vegas Raiders head coach Jon Gruden publicly addressed the “racist” emails that led to his exile from the NFL. Speaking to the Little Rock Touchdown Club, Gruden expressed regret over the comments he made in private emails and expressed a desire to one day return to coaching. "Fearless" soldiers Royce White and T.J. Moe unpack the former Super Bowl champion's comments and explore Jason's theory that the Gruden case is an example of the culture's demand for racism far exceeding its actual supply. As the Rachel Richardson story continues to make headlines, we are joined by two BYU students, co-founders of the Cougar Chronicle, who say sources with the athletic department haven't been able to corroborate the Duke volleyball player's allegations of being harassed with racial slurs during a game. Luke Hanson and Thomas Stevenson join Jason to share their reporting and add powerful insight into the culture under assault at BYU. Lizzo is one of the biggest stars on the planet, and most recently, a Video Music Award winner. She used her acceptance speech to decry all the oppression that made her a millionaire. The first lady of "Fearless" Shemeka Michelle helps us “Make It Make Sense.” Wednesday means “Tennessee Harmony.” Pastor Anthony Walker joins Jason and Royce to discuss Steve Harvey's foray into prosperity gospel. We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

If you watch ESPN's "First Take" and follow LeBron James on Twitter, you may be led to believe that a BYU fan allegedly yelling the N-word at a Duke women's volleyball player is the biggest story on the planet, but there are a lot of questions to be answered about the incident. “I've attended a lot of sporting events in my career as a sports journalist. Someone shouting repeated racial slurs would stand out. The only time it goes ignored is when it's a group of black young people calling each other the N-word.” Jason lays out the evidence that Duke's Rachel Richardson, aided by her politician grandmother and tutored by anti-racism group "A Long Talk," could be the new Jussie Smollett. "Fearless" soldier Royce White joins the conversation along with Shemeka Michelle, who adds her perspective as a resident of North Carolina. Steve Kim rejoins "Fearless" to expand on yesterday's conversation and engages with Royce and Jason regarding whether there can be another athlete to fill the societal role of the great Muhammad Ali. Finally, Delano Squires joins the show to discuss NFL legend Deion Sanders inviting the cast of Starz's “P-Valley” to visit his Jackson State football team and what it reveals about historically black colleges and universities and their relationship with the LGBTQ community.   We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com   ​​Today's Sponsor: Switch today with Patriot Mobile! Get the same great nationwide coverage while supporting the conservative values you believe in. Go to https://PATRIOTMOBILE.COM/JASON or call 972-PATRIOT. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Aaron Rodgers' appearance on "The Joe Rogan Experience" made headlines when the reigning NFL MVP admitted he intentionally misled the league about his vaccination status. That's the takeaway corporate media extracted from the visit with Rogan. To focus on anything else, Jason says, would be undermining the sports leagues' new overlords, Big Pharma. “Rodgers might be the most dangerous athlete since Muhammad Ali changed the approved narrative on the Vietnam War. The NFL's media partners will denigrate Rodgers for consenting to an interview with Rogan and discussing the illogical COVID protocols that defined professional sports last year.” Jason blames the poor leadership in the NFL for selling out the player's health, but the NBA, MLB, NHL, and even the NCAA are guilty of the same crimes against sanity. "Fearless" soldier T.J. Moe joins the show to discuss Rodger's newfound vigor for rebellion and the potential ripple effect it could have across sports. Steve Kim drops in to share his thoughts and approval rating for Rodgers. Plus, it's Monday, that means it's time for "Fearless'" "House of the Dragon" review. This week, Jill Savage, Tiffany Odom, and Lauren Chen join Jason to breakdown episode #2, “The Rogue Prince.” We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com ​​Today's Sponsor: Lock in your price on all the meat you buy. When you subscribe, your price is locked in for life! A year from now, when meat goes up by another 20%, 30%, or 50%, this will be the thing you wished you had done. Use my code “FEARLESS”, or visit https://GoodRanchers.com/FEARLESS and get your box $30 off plus free shipping! Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The bulk of this week's FIRE-STARTERS have been about the lack of masculinity in this country. We live in a culture that wants women to destroy the patriarchy and tribalism of men. Barstool Sports' frat boy Dave Portnoy got into a heated exchange with BlazeTV contributor Alex Stein and actually fired an old friend of Stein's because he called Stein to defend Barstool Sports. John Singleton's 2001 film “Baby Boy” explores the theme of matriarchal culture in black communities, and 20 years later, it looks like a documentary reflecting modern-day society. The baby-mama culture is revealing its damage on men like Kevin Durant, LeBron James, and Nick Cannon. The concept of maintaining morals and responsibility seems to be lost on this new generation of Americans. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

With the CDC and YouTube recently making guideline and policy changes, it's time that all those who demonized players like Aaron Rodgers, Kyrie Irving, and Cole Beasley be held accountable and apologize. Jason, with assistance from BlazeTV's Steve Deace and "Fearless" soldier T.J. Moe, hands out the receipts to ESPN's Stephen A. Smith, Michael Wilbon, Mina Kimes, and Ryan Clark. Former Ball State teammate Lem Jones joins Jason to share the inspiring story of how the gospel of Jesus Christ reunited them. Plus, Delano Squires discusses his latest column and how the “Afristocracy” has become a barrier to the progress of black people because it lacks the biblical values and vision that once freed a people. We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Social media erupted Tuesday night as Barstool's Dave Portnoy unleashed a barrage of tweets and a “press release” in response to Jason's column about Portnoy's brand of bootleg masculinity. Between a request for fellatio and fat jokes, Portnoy's Twitter tantrum only served to further expose the sports bro as a fraud. In this episode's fire-starter, Jason doesn't hold back: “Narcissism, cocaine, insecurity, and shallowness prevent Dave Portnoy from acknowledging his betrayal.” Jason outlines Portnoy's journey from sports media start-up to sports media sellout. “Portnoy is a sellout. He has no interest in bringing people together. His interests are in lining his pockets. I'd have no problem if he'd just admit it. He's white LeBron James.” Primetime Alex Stein joins the show and exposes Portnoy's pettiness for firing an employee for a phone call. Plus, Shemeka Michelle brings attorney Ben Crump before Judge Jason on charges against Free Black Intelligence for leading the outrage over an incident at the Little League World Series. And in a special edition of "Tennessee Harmony," Barry McKeen of Grace Christian School in Florida joins the show to discuss the recent controversy involving a long-standing policy against homosexuality at the private school. And Pastor Anthony Walker shares his thoughts on the matter.     We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com   SHOW OUTLINE 00:00 Intro Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Democrats' and feminists' war on manhood has given rise to an epidemic of bootleg masculinity. The prohibition on masculinity has spawned online bullies that masquerade as alpha males. Dave Portnoy, the founder of Barstool Sports, once aspired to take down ESPN and the sports media establishment, now he panders to the corporate gaming overlords that made him a millionaire. “Portnoy built a sports media empire pretending to be a fearless, ESPN disruptor standing against the wokification of sports and American culture. It's now clear he's a total fraud and sellout.” Jason says. “If we weren't living in an era completely hostile to masculinity, Portnoy would be broke in Boston delivering pizza. The prohibition of masculinity is what made heroes and millionaires of men like Portnoy.” On Monday, Portnoy sparked a Twitter feud with Blaze contributor Alex Stein as Barstool tweeted, then deleted, a recent video of Stein at a Las Vegas city council meeting mocking gambling. Primetime Alex Stein joins Jason to discuss the beef and Portnoy's false bravado. Controversial internet personality Andrew Tate is another benefactor of the war on masculinity. Tate was recently banned from all social media platforms. Shemeka Michelle joins the show to discuss the move. Steve Cosell joins the discussion and evaluation of Portnoy and Tate. Plus, Delano Squires addresses the masculinity vacuum and those who have filled it.    We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The much-anticipated prequel to HBO's "Game of Thrones" debuted on Sunday night. Unlike its predecessor, HBO's "House of the Dragon" does not conceal its feminist-grooming agenda. “The first episode of 'House of the Dragon' is drag queen story hour for feminist groomers.” Jason says. “Hollywood is determined to convince young people that all evil is rooted in male leadership, the patriarchy, and that America must be remade to protect the world. Only women can save the world from the tribalism and brutality of men.” "Fearless" contributors Jill Savage, Steve Kim, and Tiffany Odom break down the leftist themes from the first episode of the new HBO series and answer the real question: Is it any good? Plus, Jason shares his thoughts on Aqib Talib “stepping away” from his broadcasting role with Amazon in the aftermath of the shooting death of youth football coach Mike Hickmon. We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com. Today's Sponsor: Lock in your price on all the meat you buy. When you subscribe, your price is locked in for life! A year from now, when meat goes up by another 20%, 30%, or 50%, this will be the thing you wished you had done. Use my code “FEARLESS”, or visit https://GoodRanchers.com/FEARLESS and get your box $30 off plus free shipping! This is it! The Blaze patriotic socks are only available for one more day! You have TWO sock packages and stylish drink covers to choose from. Order both and we'll throw in a FREE bonus set of socks on us! For BlazeTV subscribers, use promo code “Blaze Sub” for 20% off your purchase. Not a subscriber? No problem! Subscribe to BlazeTV now and use promo code “FearlessSocks” to save on both your BlazeTV subscription AND get 20% off these limited-edition socks. Go to BlazeSocks.com. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Black lives only matter when it's a white murderer. This is the narrative that must never be broken. Ignore the thousands of black-on-black murders like pee wee football coach Mike Hickmon, whose recent death was sparked by former NFL player Aqib Talib. ESPN may hide Hickmon's death, but the coaches at the scene of the crime won't in an exclusive interview with Jason. The thug lifestyle lived out by Aqib Talib and talked about in hip hop music is a lifestyle that has rotted society and our kids. Why does the culture often reward the wicked? We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Serena Williams' move towards retirement to raise her daughter should be a celebration of the privilege of motherhood, but not for Serena. She wrote in Vogue magazine, “Believe me, I never wanted to have to choose between tennis and a family. I don't think it's fair. If I were a guy, I wouldn't be writing this because I'd be out there playing and winning while my wife was doing the physical labor of expanding our family.” Jason says her reluctant retirement exposes where her real priorities lie. “Serena has been convinced that Wimbledon titles are more important than that child she carried in the womb for nine months.” And who's to blame for Serena's views on motherhood as a female athlete? "Fearless" soldier Delano Squires has the answer. Then, it's the "Fearless" debut of a brand-new segment: the F.B.I. (Free Black Intelligence) Most Wanted. In case #081922, Shemeka Michelle brings Sean Combs, aka Puff Daddy, aka P. Diddy, aka Diddy, before Judge Jason on charges of conspiracy for his role in the death of R&B music. Plus, Steve Kim and Jason share their thoughts on the Netflix documentary "Untold: The Girlfriend That Didn't Exist," recounting the catfishing hoax of Notre Dame football star Manti Te'o. We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When we hear the term “groomers,” our minds have been conditioned to think about the sexual predators lurking to indoctrinate our children for their perverse fantasies. Jason says there is another group of groomers whose reach and impact on our youth is far greater than those trolling on social media. “Teachers that are putting the gay Pride flags in their schools, and all that stuff. Those guys can all take a backseat to rappers and to rap music and the music industry and the grooming that's been going on for 30, 40 years in the rap music world; and no one wants to talk about it because that's black culture.” It's happening every day in communities all over the nation; young kids are willingly exposed to violent and vulgar lyrics that invite them into a culture of death, drugs, and destruction. Gangsta rap has been adopted as the soundtrack for sports, from Pee-Wee to pros. Young kids are on video taking the field and dancing to lyrical pornography. "Fearless" soldiers T.J. Moe and Shemeka Michelle help Jason explore the grooming of children through music and its deadly impact. Plus, Steve Kim joins the show to discuss how ESPN and the mainstream media have fumbled the coverage of Aqib Talib's role in the tragic death of youth football coach Mike Hickmon. We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com ​​Today's Sponsor: Switch today with Patriot Mobile! Get the same great nationwide coverage while supporting the conservative values you believe in. Go to https://PATRIOTMOBILE.COM/JASON or call 972-PATRIOT. The Blaze patriotic socks are back, but not for long! You have TWO sock packages and stylish drink covers to choose from. Order both and we'll throw in a FREE bonus set of socks on us! For BlazeTV subscribers, use promo code “Blaze Sub” for 20% off your purchase. Not a subscriber? No problem! Subscribe to BlazeTV now and use promo code “FearlessSocks” to save on both your BlazeTV subscription AND get 20% off these limited-edition socks. Go to BlazeSocks.com. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The path that led to Aqib Talib's involvement in the death of a youth football coach was set long ago. It's a path he chose. Talib embraced a dangerous persona to present to the world. It was a reputation he needed to live up to, on and off the field. “Aqib Talib spent the better part of two decades projecting an identity and image of himself as a football-playing thug. He wanted everyone he came in contact with to know he was 'about that life.'” Jason says this identity, influenced by pop culture and hip hop music, is killing black men. “Popular culture celebrates the bad guy. From Tony Soprano to Jay Z, the American zeitgeist rewards the unrepentant criminal.” "Fearless" soldier T.J. Moe joins Jason to discuss how the identity you adopt impacts your life. Virgil Walker stops in to discuss authenticity in the black community. Royce White shares his thoughts on the cultural influences that shape the black community and asks for Ice Cube to get the respect he deserves. Wednesdays mean Tennessee Harmony. Pastors Anthony Walker and Bobby Harrington join Jason and T.J. to discuss why society rewards the wicked. We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com ​​Today's Sponsor: Nugenix Total T is the number one selling testosterone booster at GNC. Text “FEARLESS” to 231-231 and get a bottle of Nugenix Thermo, their most powerful fat incinerator ever, with key ingredients to help you get back into shape fast… ABSOLUTELY FREE. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For the first time since the deadly shooting of youth football coach Mike Hickmon, we hear directly from the witnesses on the field during the tragedy. Dragon Elite Academy Coaches Kerrie Lewis, Mark West, and Heith Mayes share the details of what began as an argument with game officials that turned deadly. They believe the tragedy was completely preventable, and the blame for sparking the events that led to the shooting lays solely on one man: former NFL star Aqib Talib. “Aqib incited the whole uproar,” Dragon Elite coach Kerry Lewis tells Jason. “The game would've never been stopped had Aqib not come over to our sideline to yell at the refs.” "Fearless" is the only place where you will hear the story of how a pee-wee game turned violent and left Aqib's brother Yakub Talib in jail on murder charges. This tragedy highlights two issues: the epidemic of black-on-black crime and the proliferation of adult misconduct in youth sports. "Fearless" contributors T.J. Moe and Steve Kim join the show to discuss the newest details in the case. We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com Today's Sponsor: Cozy Earth bed sheets are soft, made of the finest luxury material and temperature-regulating so you can sleep cool and comfy year-round! Save 35% when you go to https://CozyEarth.com/FEARLESS and enter my special promo code FEARLESS at checkout. The Blaze patriotic sock packs are back! There are TWO sock packages and stylish drink covers to choose from. Order both and we'll throw in a FREE bonus set of socks! For BlazeTV subscribers, use promo code “Blaze Sub” for 20% off your purchase. Not a subscriber? Subscribe to BlazeTV now and use promo code “FearlessSocks” to save on both your BlazeTV subscription AND get 20% off these limited-edition socks. Go to BlazeSocks.com. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On Saturday, an argument following a youth football scrimmage led to the murder of a coach in front of his 9-year-old son. Despite the alleged shooter being the brother of a former NFL star and despite that same Super Bowl champion player being on the field when the murder happened, you probably haven't heard the name Michael Hickmon. The former college football running back had spent his post-playing career giving back to the youth in his community. That's just what he was doing when Yaqub Talib, the brother of former Denver Broncos star Aqib Talib, shot and killed him following a post-game dispute. The story didn't lead on ESPN's Sportscenter, LeBron James hasn't tweeted for justice, and there is no "Say His Name" campaign for Hickmon. “Hickmon is unworthy of the kind of deification corporate and social media reserve for heroic black men harmed while resisting arrest. Hickmon is no George Floyd, Michael Brown, Daunte Wright, Rayshard Brooks, Jacob Blake, or Eric Garner.” Jason says. "It's racist to discuss the self-hatred that provokes black men to cavalierly settle disagreements with gun violence.” "Fearless" contributors Dave Shannon and Steve Kim share their thoughts on the tragedy. And Steve weighs in on whether Fox Sports and Amazon should reconsider their associations with Aqib Talib following the murder. ​​Today's Sponsor: School has begun! Many kids don't know where their meals will come from. For every order in the month of August, Good Ranchers is donating to help kids by providing high-quality and nutritious meals, and you can join by ordering a box. Support this campaign and get $30 off any box of beef, chicken, or seafood + FREE shipping using my code, “FEARLESS”, or visit https://GoodRanchers.com/FEARLESS. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Diversity, inclusion, and equity — or as Jason calls it, D.I.E. — is a movement that promotes drag queens teaching kids how to ride stripper poles, banishes men from leadership roles, and makes Christians ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Why did the FBI raid Donald Trump's estate in Florida? Cale Gundy, University of Oklahoma football coach, bowed to woke culture like a coward and resigned as a result of his actions. His black players' message to him: They will miss him? “Fearless” soldier Royce White fell short of winning Minnesota's 5th Congressional District! The votes he needed to win were taken by an unknown candidate named Guy Gaskin. Is this guy real? If you can find any information on Gaskin, contact Jason at fearless@theblaze.com. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this special edition, we sit down with "Fearless" soldier Royce White, fresh off his first battle in the political arena. Royce's bid for the Republican nomination to take on the far-left Ilhan Omar fell short, but he joins the show to discuss the lessons learned and what is next. Jason and Royce discussed the reasons why the political establishment and party Democrats are so terrified of black conservative candidates. “There's a conservative movement coming. There's a black conservative movement coming that is not afraid, that has sacred honor, that has morals and ethics that we are willing to live by and die for.” Royce says. As further evidence of the fear free-thinking black people impose on liberals, Mother Jones released a hit piece days before the primary entitled, “What Happened to Royce White?” The article questions the authenticity of Royce's political beliefs, even saying his campaign felt like “a prank.” Jason says the tone of the article is fairly evident. “How dare Royce White intellectually evolve? We gave him a set of talking points at birth that as a black man he has to stick to, and he's strayed from those talking points.” Plus, Royce shares his thoughts on the FBI's raid on resident Trump.   We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com   ​​Today's Sponsor: You can get a FREE report with all the details of how adding Bank On Yourself to your financial plan can help you take back control of your money. Just go to https://BankOnYourself.com/FEARLESS. You spoke and we listened, so The Blaze patriotic sock packs are back again! There are TWO sock packages and stylish drink covers to choose from. Order both and we'll throw in a FREE bonus set of socks! For BlazeTV subscribers, use promo code “Blaze Sub” for 20% off your purchase. Not a subscriber? No problem! Subscribe to BlazeTV now and use promo code “FearlessSocks” to save on both your BlazeTV subscription AND get 20% off these limited-edition socks. Go to BlazeSocks.com. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The circumstances that led to the “resignation” of Oklahoma's Cale Gundy are far more complicated than the use of a racial slur. He's another victim of the woke mob and cancel culture. The longtime coach and former Sooner quarterback's attempt to reprimand a player violated a social code that men of his generation keep running afoul of. “In his outrage, Gundy forgets that it's illegal for college coaches, particularly white ones, to preach their values to black men. Only white liberals are allowed to preach values to black people, especially on a college campus.” Jason says Gundy's true failure was believing he could still teach time-honored values to today's NCAA athletes. “Cale Gundy quit because woke culture forbids sharing his values. It's the same reason Jay Wright retired as Villanova's basketball coach at age 60. Same goes for Duke's Mike Krzyzewski at age 75.” Sooner faithful Virgil Walker shares his thoughts on the matter, and "Fearless" soldier T.J. Moe tells us why Brent Venables is a fraud. And Wednesday means “Tennessee Harmony” with Pastors Bobby Harrington and Anthony Walker as "Fearless" explores the differences between heading up a national ministry and leading a local congregation.    We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com   ​​Today's Sponsor: CrowdHealth gives you a new way to pay for healthcare. Go to https://JOINCROWDHEALTH.com right now and get your first 6 months for just $99 per month by using promo code FEARLESS. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In both a historic and unprecedented move, the FBI raided the home of former President Donald Trump. The search warrant was issued to recover alleged top secret documents Trump had removed from the White House. While the Left is cheering the move as another blow to the potential 2024 campaign of Donald Trump, Jason argues the raid has done the exact opposite. “This is going to work out well for Trump politically, he gets to be the martyr; and he's not just claiming to be a martyr, he is a martyr.” Jack Posobiec joins Jason to discuss the significance of the actions taken by the Justice Department and why this has the potential to be a turning point in the history of our country. "Fearless" contributor Delano Squires shares his thoughts on the Trump raid and how the diversity, inclusion, and equity movement is poisoning men. T.J. Moe joins the Trump discussion and makes the case for Ron DeSantis to be the Republican presidential candidate for 2024. The newest member of the Fearless Army, Virgil Walker, adds a biblical insight to the Trump conversation and explores how the D.I.E. campaign has made "evangelical" a derogatory term. Plus, the first lady of "Fearless," Shemeka Michelle, enters the Trump vs. DeSantis debate.    We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com ​​Today's Sponsor: You can save up to 50% or more on life insurance! Plus, no extra fees, no unnecessary medical exams, and we never sell your information to third parties. Head to https://policygenius.com/FEARLESS to get your free quotes and see how much you could save today! Cozy Earth bed sheets are soft, made of the finest luxury material and temperature-regulating so you can sleep cool and comfy year-round! Save 35% when you go to https://CozyEarth.com/FEARLESS and enter my special promo code FEARLESS at checkout. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jason believes the diversity, equity, and inclusion movement — or what he more accurately refers to as the diversity, inclusion, equity (D.I.E.) movement — is the real enemy of God in today's culture. Those who worship at the altar of D.I.E. have bought into the lies of the Left that America is a better place with women in charge, the LGBTQ movement isn't really after your children, and because the Founding Fathers owned slaves, America is racist and needs to be rewritten in the image of today's new religion: diversity, inclusion, equity. It's the movement that promotes drag queens teaching kids how to ride a stripper pole, banishes men from leadership roles, makes Christians ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and is even influencing a former NBA star to try to cancel Mt. Rushmore. Jason explores the issues that have allowed D.I.E. a foothold, including the failure of the church and men to stand on biblical truths and reject this spirit of the age. We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com Today's Sponsor: School has begun! Many kids don't know where their meals will come from. For every order in the month of August, Good Ranchers is donating to help kids by providing high-quality and nutritious meals, and you can join by ordering a box. Support this campaign and get $30 off any box of beef, chicken, or seafood + FREE shipping using my code, “FEARLESS”, or visit https://GoodRanchers.com/FEARLESS. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Chris Rock says, “If everybody claims to be a victim, then nobody will hear the real victims.” Why can't football players talk this way? Here's what we learned from the NFL's investigation into the Miami Dolphins: Brian Flores is a snitch who embraced the identity of a victim. Ricci Wynne, a 36-year-old recovering drug addict is the hero that uses his Twitter feed to hold a mirror to the faces of Nancy Pelosi, Dianne Feinstein, and Kamala Harris. Also, Beyoncé's  new album “Renaissance” is out now! It's garbage, but at least it has “black queer bravado.” What does that even mean? Find out in this week's most Fearless FIRESTARTERS! We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com   ​​Today's Sponsor: You spoke and we listened, so The Blaze patriotic sock packs are back again! There are TWO sock packages and stylish drink covers to choose from. Order both and we'll throw in a FREE bonus set of socks! For BlazeTV subscribers, use promo code “Blaze Sub” for 20% off your purchase. Not a subscriber? No problem! Subscribe to BlazeTV now and use promo code “FearlessSocks” to save on both your BlazeTV subscription AND get 20% off these limited-edition socks. Go to BlazeSocks.com. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Why does it seem like America doesn't care that WNBA star Brittney Griner was just sentenced to nine years in a Russian prison? Jason says the reason hasn't nothing to do with racism or sexism. “Race and sex play a role, but not in the way Griner's loudest supporters argue. The truth is the identity politics movement is the reason Griner is caught in a cold war game that used to be reserved for men only. She's a victim of the feminist movement that states there's no difference between Brittney Griner and John McCain …” Jason also points to cynicism towards the American justice system as a reason for the lack of sympathy for Griner, a system that he argues has embraced the same political one-sidedness that Russia exhibits. “It's difficult to muster outrage at the unfairness and harshness of the Russian courts when our own system has fully embraced a harshness and one-sided political motivation.” "Fearless" contributor Steve Kim weighs in on the Griner situation and why he doesn't care. A jury ordered Alex Jones to pay $4 million dollars to parents of the Sandy Hook victims as punishment for him calling the shooting a hoax. Royce White joins the show to explain who and what is really on trial in the case. U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland has filed federal charges against four officers involved in the Breonna Taylor shooting. Maj Toure has an opinion that leads to some friendly fire between him and Jason. The first lady of "Fearless," Shemeka Michelle, helps us make sense of a video of a woman spitting on a store clerk for simply asking her children not to throw bags of chips. You'll want to see this video. Plus, Delano Squires joins the show to tell us why monkeypox is the real “don't say gay.”   We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com   ​​Today's Sponsor: You spoke and we listened, so The Blaze patriotic sock packs are back again! There are TWO sock packages and stylish drink covers to choose from. Order both and we'll throw in a FREE bonus set of socks! For BlazeTV subscribers, use promo code “Blaze Sub” for 20% off your purchase. Not a subscriber? No problem! Subscribe to BlazeTV now and use promo code “FearlessSocks” to save on both your BlazeTV subscription AND get 20% off these limited-edition socks. Go to BlazeSocks.com. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

San Francisco is in full blown "Lord of the Flies" descent. With the mainstream media ignoring the drug-riddled streets created by the failed policies of progressive politicians like Nancy Pelosi and Kamala Harris, a Bay Area native and recovering drug addict has taken to the streets to hold a mirror to those in power. Ricci Wynne recently served 36 months in prison for cocaine trafficking and gun charges. When he returned to his beloved hometown, he was shocked by the drug-riddled dystopia he found. “I love my city. It's just in demise,” he tells Jason. “I feel as though these policies that are being implemented in San Francisco don't help. It's so hard for me being a recovering addict, being a criminal, the odds are already stacked against me. It's hard for me to walk down the street and not be aggressively offered to buy or sell drugs.” The former felon turned viral crusader joins "Fearless" to discuss the motivations behind his pursuit for policy change, how sanctuary cities are providing a haven for international drug trade, and to share a disturbing view of the reality on the streets of San Fran. "Fearless" contributor Steve Kim stops in to talk NFL. The league is appealing Deshaun Watson's suspension, but not for the reason you think. Plus, ESPN actually provided content that Jason and Steven enjoyed, sort of.    We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com   ​​Today's Sponsor: You spoke and we listened, so The Blaze patriotic sock packs are back again! There are TWO sock packages and stylish drink covers to choose from. Order both and we'll throw in a FREE bonus set of socks! For BlazeTV subscribers, use promo code “Blaze Sub” for 20% off your purchase. Not a subscriber? No problem! Subscribe to BlazeTV now and use promo code “FearlessSocks” to save on both your BlazeTV subscription AND get 20% off these limited-edition socks. Go to BlazeSocks.com. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The NFL brought the hammer down on the Miami Dolphins, but not for the reasons that former head coach Brian Flores had alleged. The league fined and suspended owner Stephen Ross and docked the team two draft picks but found no evidence that the team intentionally lost games as Flores said in a lawsuit. What is the takeaway from the NFL's decision? Jason says it's that Brian Flores is a snitch that's hurting the cause of black coaches. “Sure, the NFL found the Dolphins guilty of tampering with Tom Brady and Sean Payton and docked the franchise two draft picks. But the wrongdoing of Dolphins owner Stephen Ross isn't the story here. Flores is. He looks weak and untrustworthy.” "Fearless" contributors Steve Kim and T.J. Moe join the conversation, and T.J. shares his theory on the real reason Flores didn't want Tom Brady as the quarterback of the Dolphins. MSNBC clown Elie Mystal called Georgia senatorial candidate and football legend​ Herschel Walker a “house negro,” saying he's only doing what his white GOP masters are telling him to do. Virgil Walker joins "Fearless" to call out Mystal's and the Democrats' hypocrisy, plus he shares his thoughts on Tony Evans' “Kingdom Race Theory,” which he believes is built on the foundations of CRT. Finally, time for some Tennessee Harmony with Pastors Anthony Walker, Bobby Harrington, and Virgil Walker. Jason asks the pastors if the Christian church is truly holding its members accountable and if there are lessons to be learned from the disciplines in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' and Catholic faiths. ​​Today's Sponsor: Bring the American family to the table again with Good Ranchers! Right now, get $30 off your order! Plus, FREE shipping is a huge cost covered for customers. Use my code, “FEARLESS”, or visit https://GoodRanchers.com/FEARLESS. Nugenix Total T is the number one selling testosterone booster at GNC. Text “FEARLESS” to 231-231 and get a bottle of Nugenix Thermo, their most powerful fat incinerator ever, with key ingredients to help you get back into shape fast… ABSOLUTELY FREE. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Beyoncé's latest album has been praised by the New York Times as “black queer bravado,” but the song “Heated” landed Queen B in hot water with cancel culture. The lyrics to the song contain the word “spaz,” a word that we learned is an “ableist slur” among the disabled community. Disabled people believe words matter and want to hold people to standards. Jason asks why the black community doesn't hold artists like Beyoncé to account when they use lyrics that denigrate themselves. “We're the only group with absolutely no standard. The entire rap music industry is built on the N-word. It is used repeatedly in nearly every successful commercial rap song. Rappers brag about killing n*****, raping n*****, robbing n*****, dissing n*****. No one cares. Beyoncé uses the N-word in 'Heated.' No one cares.” "Fearless" contributor Delano Squires joins the conversation to examine the impact of popular culture on communities and shares his thoughts on TericaStar, a Florida A&M coed that celebrated receiving her master's degree by posing nude on campus. Delano explains how “junkiepox” has infested a generation. Shemeka Michelle stops in to answer the question of the day: What is "black queer bravado"? Plus, she helps us make sense of the “Swim Thick” pool parties targeting plus-sized women. Finally, Skip Bayless was critical of LeBron James after the NBA's top star failed to acknowledge the passing of legend Bill Russell on social media. Jason shares the truth about Russell and why he believes LeBron remains silent on the matter.   We want to hear from the Fearless Army!! Join the conversation in the show chat, leave a comment or email Jason at Fearless@TheBlaze.com   ​​Today's Sponsor: You spoke and we listened, so The Blaze patriotic sock packs are back again! There are TWO sock packages and stylish drink covers to choose from. Order both and we'll throw in a FREE bonus set of socks! For BlazeTV subscribers, use promo code “Blaze Sub” for 20% off your purchase. Not a subscriber? No problem! Subscribe to BlazeTV now and use promo code “FearlessSocks” to save on both your BlazeTV subscription AND get 20% off these limited-edition socks. Go to BlazeSocks.com. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Chris Rock can take a punch and deliver a punchline. Will Smith delivered an odd video apology to Rock for the Oscar slap, prompting a poignant and profound response from the comedian. “If everybody claims to be a victim, then nobody will hear the real victims,” he said. “Even me getting smacked by Suge Smith … I went to work the next day. I got kids.” Jason asks how we have come to a point where a comedian is more courageous than an NFL quarterback. “Chris Rock is more manly than many black professional athletes. The 57-year-old comedian is barely 150 pounds. As a child, bullies ran him out of his high school. But now he's more courageous than men who are allegedly gladiators.” Deshaun Watson defenders will line up to play the race card over his six-game suspension for sexual assault allegations. Kyler Murray is so fragile, he needed Warren Moon to render aid after the Cardinals dared ask him to actually study for games as part of his $46 million dollar contract. The NFL is full of victims, and they're ruining the sport. "Fearless" soldier Steve Kim joins the show to discuss the victimhood mentality and whether all parties received a happy ending in the Watson saga. Shemeka Michelle drops in to examine Will Smith's odd YouTube apology video and offer her approval rating on Chris Rock. Finally, "Fearless" contributor and Black Guns Matter founder Maj Toure had a heated Twitter exchange with the Daily Wire's Matt Walsh. Maj joins "Fearless" to share his side of the debate.     ​​Today's Sponsor: Switch today with Patriot Mobile! Get the same great nationwide coverage while supporting the conservative values you believe in. Go to https://PATRIOTMOBILE.COM/JASON or call 972-PATRIOT. You spoke and we listened, so The Blaze patriotic sock packs are back again! There are TWO sock packages and stylish drink covers to choose from. Order both and we'll throw in a FREE bonus set of socks! For BlazeTV subscribers, use promo code “Blaze Sub” for 20% off your purchase. Not a subscriber? No problem! Subscribe to BlazeTV now and use promo code “FearlessSocks” to save on both your BlazeTV subscription AND get 20% off these limited-edition socks. Go to BlazeSocks.com. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Michigan head football coach Jim Harbaugh recently delivered a speech at a Right to Life fundraiser where he challenged the audience to “have the courage to let the unborn be born.” We should be rejoicing at those words, but Jason says he just can't seem to celebrate Harbaugh as a champion of unborn children. “Every position Jim Harbaugh takes is filtered through the lens of football, not Catholicism. He's pro-Kaepernick, because that's a message that works with recruits. He's pro-George Floyd, because that's a message that works with recruits. He's pro-life, because that's a message that works with the mothers of recruits.” "Fearless" soldier T.J. Moe joins the show to answer Jason's question: Should we trust Harbaugh's words, or is he just using a pro-life message as a recruiting tactic for the Wolverines? **Spoiler Alert** It's time for another edition of “Fearless at the Movies.” “Tailor to the Stars” Troy McSwain and Fox Sports Radio host and pop culture connoisseur Jason Martin join Jason to review Jordan Peele's latest film, "NOPE." Let's just say Whitlock isn't high on the movie, and some Friendly Fire is exchanged between the three. Today's Sponsor: Bring the American family to the table again with Good Ranchers! Right now, get $30 off your order! Plus, FREE shipping is a huge cost covered for customers. Use my code, “FEARLESS”, or visit https://GoodRanchers.com/FEARLESS. You spoke and we listened, so The Blaze patriotic sock packs are back again! There are TWO sock packages and stylish drink covers to choose from. Order both and we'll throw in a FREE bonus set of socks! For BlazeTV subscribers, use promo code “Blaze Sub” for 20% off your purchase. Not a subscriber? No problem! Subscribe to BlazeTV now and use promo code “FearlessSocks” to save on both your BlazeTV subscription AND get 20% off these limited-edition socks. Go to BlazeSocks.com. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

"Fearless" continues to unpack the passionate sermon delivered by Bishop E.W. Jackson that left Jason convicted and underscores his complete worldview. The cultural collapse of America has reached the point when political apathy and abstinence will no longer work. Jason has never voted and admits that most of the political debates are no concern of his, but when we've reached the point of sexual confusion and perversion, people with a biblical worldview must unite at the polls, not around a particular candidate, but around the truths of Jesus Christ. Virgil Walker drops in to share his thoughts on Bishop Jackson's impactful sermon and Jason's reaction. Missouri Attorney General Eric Schmitt hopes to be a part of the “Red Wave” come November. He currently holds the lead for the GOP senatorial nomination in the state and joins "Fearless" to discuss his war against the Left's collusion with social media, Big Tech, and the Silicon Valley elite. Then, "Fearless" soldier T.J. Moe joins Pastors Anthony Walker & Bobby Harrington for some Tennessee Harmony, diving into the question: Where have all the real men gone? Today's Sponsor: Bring the American family to the table again with Good Ranchers! Right now, get $30 off your order! Plus, FREE shipping is a huge cost covered for customers. Use my code, “FEARLESS”, or visit https://GoodRanchers.com/FEARLESS. You spoke and we listened, so The Blaze patriotic sock packs are back again! There are TWO sock packages and stylish drink covers to choose from. Order both and we'll throw in a FREE bonus set of socks! For BlazeTV subscribers, use promo code “Blaze Sub” for 20% off your purchase. Not a subscriber? No problem! Subscribe to BlazeTV now and use promo code “FearlessSocks” to save on both your BlazeTV subscription AND get 20% off these limited-edition socks. Go to BlazeSocks.com. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Over the weekend, Jason discovered the true culprits behind the January 6 “insurrection” at the United States Capitol. It was him. “My disdain for politicians caused me to disassociate myself from politics altogether. I smugly sat on the sideline and laughed as Democrats and Republicans sold out the American people by auctioning themselves to the highest bidder. I regret that.” Jason did not act alone; he implicates you as well. Yes, you, especially if you call yourself a Christian. The men of God who sit idly by while Americans worship the idol of race, or the idol of Donald Trump, are culpable in the cultural decay of the country. There's a new civil war about to start. A spirited and impactful sermon from Bishop E.W. Jackson led to this epiphany. Jason unpacks his guilt and exposes the most recent examples of society's collapse with Troy McSwain. Plus, Bishop Jackson himself stops in to discuss his sermon, the emasculation of men, and how he went from being an "F" student to a Harvard graduate. Listen to Bishop E.W. Jackson's full sermon on Apple here or on Spotify here Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Are you ready for some football? Jason Whitlock isn't. NFL training camps are underway across the league, and the season will quickly follow, but Jason says he's never been less enthused for a professional football season. “The game feels disconnected from reality. It's used as a prop to make specious arguments denigrating the league and America as systemically racist. I don't have the stomach for it.” Despite Cleveland giving accused serial sex offender Deshaun Watson the most guaranteed money in the history of the sport and making an unproven Kyler Murray the second-highest paid quarterback in the league, we still hear how racist the NFL is because of its lack of black head coaches. “The same billionaires willing to pay Kyler Murray and Deshaun Watson $46 million a year in salary are too racist to pay black men $5 million to coach Murray and Watson?” Jason says the disparity between black and white coaches is a systemic failure but not a racist plot executed by greedy billionaire owners. He exposes the real reason behind the lack of diversity on the sideline. "Fearless" contributor Steve Kim joins the show and challenges Jason on the reason behind the ascension of the black NFL QB. Plus, T.J. Moe stops in to discuss the failure of male leadership and its impact on the NFL and beyond.   ​​Today's Sponsor: Bring the American family to the table again with Good Ranchers! Right now, get $30 off your order! Plus, FREE shipping is a huge cost covered for customers. Use my code, “FEARLESS”, or visit https://GoodRanchers.com/FEARLESS Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Which matters more, black lives or black violence? A longtime fan of Jason reaches out on social media because she's upset that Jason loves to talk about problems with black culture, but not solutions. Don't Jason and the “Fearless” contributors bring up biblical worldviews in every episode? Showtime finally ended its show “Desus & Mero.” The reason? The two alleged “comedians” were nothing but shills for the Democratic Party. Speaking of comedians, Bill Burr is forcing the pro-abortion crowd to deal with the fact that they advocate for murder. Catch this week's best fire-starters to hear it all! Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This Fearless Friday is full of fire. A NY Times columnist authored an apology to Donald Trump voters, but not the president himself. Jason says some people see the apology as progress in the war between corporate media and Americans, but he's not one of those people. “Stevens' apology fell flat and felt insincere to me. A real mea culpa would start with acknowledging that Donald Trump was and is right about the political establishment – both Left and Right. Mainstream politicians, corporate media, and corporate America sold out the American people.” Jason's favorite political candidate Kathy Barnette shares his sentiment and goes even further on the failure of the media and its blind hatred for Donald Trump. In the aftermath of the Roe v. Wade decision, there's been a number of prominent black preachers using the pulpit to share pro-abortion messages. Delano Squires drops in to discuss the growing divide between the political views of black and white Christians. Congressman Burgess Owens joins "Fearless" to discuss the fatherlessness epidemic and the reason the NFL hates America. Marcellus Wiley is out on “Speak for Yourself,” Richard Sherman is in at Colin Cowherd's network, Charles Barkley lashes out, and Steve Kim is here to cover it all. Finally, Jason explains why he's not offended by Donald Trump, how Bill Burr destroys the pro-abortion argument, and that Joe Biden is a creep, and you need to the deal with it. ​​Today's Sponsor: Bring the American family to the table again with Good Ranchers! Right now, get $30 off your order! Plus, FREE shipping is a huge cost covered for customers. Use my code, “FEARLESS”, or visit https://GoodRanchers.com/FEARLESS. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the shadow of the Summer of George Floyd something took root in Minnesota. The Twin Cities are becoming the San Francisco of the midwest. A Minneapolis theater caved to the woke social media mob, spearheaded by the Alphabet Mafia and canceled Dave Chappelle's show just hours before the doors were to open. Jason also says that comedians and ministers play a very important role in American culture. “They create a safe space in an environment where the rest of us can have these uncomfortable conversations and get at the truth. These comedians, ministers, protect truth, free speech and the public square. That's why ministers and comedians are under attack.” The forces corrupting American culture want to cancel ministers and comedians and it's no laughing matter. Dave Shannon joins the show to discuss why now more than ever a confession of our cultural sin is needed. Shemeka Michelle adds her insight to the Chappelle conversation and why she believes it's just the beginning. Plus, an outstanding LIVE performance of “Harmony” from Ali Taylor, Tae Lewis & Devena. ​​Today's Sponsor: Switch today with Patriot Mobile! Get the same great nationwide coverage while supporting the conservative values you believe in. Go to https://PATRIOTMOBILE.COM/JASON or call 972-PATRIOT. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jason received an Instagram message that left him shaken. Loretta, a long-time follower, questioned his commitment to the African-American community. She accused Jason of only being critical of black people and black culture, but never providing any answers to the problems he exposes. This one message leaves Jason questioning everything about "Fearless." He explores the questions raised by Loretta's letter and delves deep into the reasons he's critical of black culture, its white peddlers, and offers the solution to all of America's problems in one word. Jason cites plenty of source material, from Charles Barkley's appearance on “The Pivot Podcast” to Tony Evans' sermon on “The Idol of Culture” to the over-dramatic campaign video of a weed-smoking, abortion-loving minister running for Senate. “This culture is sick and perverted and satanic, and this show is going to continue to hold a mirror up to it every chance we get, because it's killing us.” ​​Today's Sponsors:   Bring the American family to the table again with Good Ranchers! Right now, get $30 off your order! Plus, FREE shipping is a huge cost covered for customers. Use my code, “FEARLESS”, or visit https://GoodRanchers.com/FEARLESS. Nugenix Total T is the number one selling testosterone booster. Text “FEARLESS” to 231-231 and get a bottle of Nugenix Thermo, their most powerful fat incinerator ever, with key ingredients to help you get back into shape fast… ABSOLUTELY FREE. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for yourself, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're being bamboozled. After four lackluster seasons, Showtime's "Desus & Mero" is being canceled. If you listen to the media reports, most crafted by the network's public relations team, the show is falling victim to “creative differences.” Just like your favorite band, Desus and Mero are parting ways to pursue solo projects. Jason gives us the real reason the show was euthanized. “No one watched. 'Desus & Mero' couldn't build an audience because the alleged comedians weren't funny, smart, profound, or bold. They were a stereotype. They cursed, said the N-word, giggled like they were high, and spewed the left-wing and Alphabet Mafia talking points Showtime handed them.” The 2020 debut episode with Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez reeled in 150,000 viewers, the high-water mark for the program. Despite a left-wing who's who, including Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, Denzel Washington, Chris Rock, Lil Nas X, Stacey Abrams, and Megan Rapinoe, the show never gained any traction. "Fearless" contributor Steve Kim joins the show and shares his "Desus & Mero" approval rating. The Pelosis are Pelosing. Paul purchases millions of tech stocks just before Nancy is set to vote on a bill that would send billions to the industry. Former Pennsylvania Senate candidate Kathy Barnette stops in to spotlight the shady stock trading in Congress and to discuss the stranglehold that the Democratic Party has on the black vote. Finally, Maj Toure joins the show to discuss the good guy with a gun that stopped a mass shooter in Indiana. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for family or friends from Jason Whitlock himself?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Tekle Sundberg opened fire in his apartment complex and nearly killed a young single mother and her children. After an hours-long standoff, police shot and killed Sundberg. Protesters took to the streets in Minneapolis this weekend to honor the memory of a would-be murderer, the woman who narrowly escaped death took exception to the people demonstrating and celebrating the man that nearly killed her. Jason believes this is another example of the hypocrisy of Black Lives Matter. “Reaction to the death of Tekle Sunberg lays bare the true mission statement of Black Lives Matter. The hashtag movement is dedicated to legitimizing and legalizing black violence, particularly violence that victimizes poor black people.” Jason says. Minnesota native Royce White joins "Fearless" to discuss the late upheaval in his home state and to discuss the unwinnable situation BLM has forced law enforcement into. Charles Barkley made a bold announcement over the weekend; Shemeka Michelle wants Jason to help her “Make It Make Sense.” Plus, Delano Squires discusses politicians in skirts and the new agenda behind the second wave of the diversity, equity, and inclusion movement.    ​​Today's Sponsor: Bring the American family to the table again with Good Ranchers! Right now, get $30 off your order! Plus, FREE shipping is a huge cost covered for customers. Use my code, “FEARLESS”, or visit https://GoodRanchers.com/FEARLESS. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for family or friends from Jason Whitlock himself?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It seems as if delinquent kids were causing trouble all week. Jason compared them to the children from "The Lord of the Flies." Are 10-year-olds allowed to be out in the street at 3 A.M? LeBron James is a meathead athlete, so why do we entertain the dumb words that come out of his mouth? Alex Stein is back at it again with a viral video of him shooting his shot with AOC. What was the “big-booty Latina's” response? What did her fiancé say? All this and more covered in this week's hottest Firestarters! Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

An entire generation of Americans is obsessed with being social media creators whose sole purpose in life is to gain attention, followers, and fame. This behavior only creates destruction. “We weaponized smartphones, arming them with social media platforms that turned IBM's invention into a weapon of mass destruction. Women and children are being slaughtered first,” Jason says. From the twerking Rhode Island senator to the trio of women that ransacked a restaurant over being charged for extra sauce to the 14-year-old girl who asked a 10-year-old to film her part in the bludgeoning death of an elderly man in Philly, it's all content to feed the social media monster. "Fearless" contributor Shemeka Michelle joins the conversation and shares how she combats the social media norms in her household. There's a new movement among the Left to paint the biblical story of King David and Bathsheba as an instance of rape. Author Larry Taunton joins Jason to expose the progressives' Marxist mission to rewrite history, Bible included. Is America in the middle of a crisis of confidence? Delano Squires says incompetent corrupt leaders have eroded the public's trust in our institutions. ​​Today's Sponsor: Bring the American family to the table again with Good Ranchers! Right now, get $30 off your order! Plus, FREE shipping is a huge cost covered for customers. Use my code, “FEARLESS”, or visit https://GoodRanchers.com/FEARLESS. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

BlazeTV contributor Alex Stein found himself in Washington D.C. and made international headlines when he took a selfie video with his favorite “big-booty Latina”: Congresswoman Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez. Stein joins Jason to address the controversy that he sparked, the hypocrisy of the Left, and shares what AOC's fiancé did in reaction to his video. We continue the discussion of "Harry Potter" author J.K. Rowling's Twitter feud with conservatives, including Jason, over the role of men and feminists in the battle against the transgender movement. Author Denise McAllister joins the show to discuss Rowling's argument that she doesn't need men to help fight the trans army, and she addresses the question of whether or not you can be a Christian and subscribe to today's feminist movement. Speaking of Twitter beefs, former Ravens helmet-rattling safety Bernard Pollard battled Ravens QB Lamar Jackson over whether or not the former NFL MVP is a Top Ten quarterback in 2022. Jason shares his thoughts on Jackson's status and how liberals, including those at ESPN, are setting Lamar up for failure. ​​Today's Sponsors: You can get a FREE report with all the details of how adding Bank On Yourself to your financial plan can help you take back control of your money. Just go to https://BankOnYourself.com/FEARLESS. Earn up to 3x more cash back than other credit card rewards or loyalty programs, with Upside! Download the FREE Upside App and use promo code “fearless” to get $5 or more cash back on your first purchase of $10 or more. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

LeBron James is at it again. The NBA's leading Twitter pseudo-intellectual shared his thoughts on WNBA star Brittney Griner's detention in a Russian prison. King James lamented that if he were Griner, he'd question whether or not he even wanted to return to America. Jason explains why LeBron is the modern-day Jethro Bodine, basketball's own Beverly Hillbilly. “James' rewards have all been tied to his ability to shoot a basketball. That ability made him rich beyond his wildest dreams and provided him an audience for his 'intellectual' pontifications. If LeBron couldn't shoot and dribble, he would have 50 to 75 social media followers and work the overnight shift at McDonald's.” "Fearless" contributor Steve Kim joins the LeBron discussion and shares the two truths about Brittney Griner. Three women in NYC were arrested after destroying a restaurant after being asked to pay $1.75 for extra sauce; we have the video and Shemeka Michelle to speak the truth. Plus, Pastor Bobby Harrington is here for Tennessee Harmony to add a biblical perspective to a recent Twitter exchange between Jason and "Harry Potter" author J.K. Rowling. ​​Today's Sponsor: Bring the American family to the table again with Good Ranchers! Right now, get $30 off your order! Plus, FREE shipping is a huge cost covered for customers. Use my code, “FEARLESS”, or visit https://GoodRanchers.com/FEARLESS. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“Lord of the Flies” depicts a group of children stranded on an island and left to their own devices. The group quickly devolves into chaos after the kids give in to their paranoia over an imaginary monster and violence erupts. Our Democrat-led cities are the island, “white supremacy” is the make-believe monster, and our black children have abandoned hope and turned to violence. Seven children in Philadelphia are accused of beating an elderly man to death in the streets. “Unsupervised children on the uninhabited streets of Philadelphia at 3 in the morning terrorizing an old man. This is a crisis of the cultural rot black America has chosen to ignore and/or embrace at the behest of the Democratic Party and the Hollywood elite.” Jason argues that the fictitious world described in the novel is a harsh reality for many black youths today. “They live on uninhabited islands with little to no adult supervision. There are too many fatherless homes and way too many baby mamas. Black children are descending into depravity and insanity.” "Fearless" contributors T.J. Moe and Shemeka Michelle join the discussion. Plus, former Pennsylvania senatorial candidate Kathy Barnette weighs in on the violence in Philly and shares her inspirational story that nearly led to an upset of Dr. Oz in the primary. Finally, T.J. and Jason tackle the questions: Has Joe Biden been compromised by his China dealings, and how has he not been impeached? Today's Sponsor: CrowdHealth gives you a new way to pay for healthcare. Go to https://JOINCROWDHEALTH.com right now and get your first 6 months for just $99 per month by using promo code FEARLESS. Cozy Earth bed sheets are soft, made of the finest luxury material and temperature-regulating so you can sleep cool and comfy year-round! Save 35% when you go to https://CozyEarth.com/FEARLESS and enter my special promo code FEARLESS at checkout. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A disturbing video from Minnesota shows toddlers striking, kicking, cursing, and throwing rocks at police during a murder investigation. How did we get here? Jason has the answer. “George Floyd has been venerated for the last two years, and we started the Juneteenth George Floyd holiday season. It's not shocking to me that young people, children, toddlers, babies have been caught up in the anti-police sentiment.” Sheila Qualls and Alpha News exposed the alarming video. Sheila joins Jason and T.J. Moe to discuss how these children are being groomed for lives of crime and the real issue feeding the behavior that no one in the black community wants to address. "Fearless" contributor Royce White is running for Congress in Minnesota and shares his thoughts on the video. “These are the WWE politics that have real-life consequences that have a real-life impact on communities.” Delano Squires drops in to share his thoughts on the Macy Gray transgender controversy and how it continues a dangerous precedent. Plus, Jerone Davison's congressional KKK campaign ad went viral. The former NFL player turned political hopeful joins Jason and T.J. to discuss the creation of the video and the reasons he's been led to run for office in Arizona. ​​Today's Sponsor: Bring the American family to the table again with Good Ranchers! Right now, get $30 off your order! Plus, FREE shipping is a huge cost covered for customers. Use my code, “FEARLESS”, or visit https://GoodRanchers.com/FEARLESS. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless Army!”   Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when a WNBA star claims America is oppressed and then goes to another country ruled by a dictator? You actually experience the real thing! Independence Day died as many Americans spent this Fourth of July complaining on social media about living in the terrible country of America that denies women their right to rip apart babies. Are you black, feminist, queer, or all of the above? Congratulations! You're eligible for the Medal of Freedom award! With so much confusion and delusion in this country, “Fearless” is here to clear the air. Listen to the heat in this week's best Fearless Firestarters! Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We began the week celebrating freedom, and we end the week celebrating free-dumb. President Biden bestowed the nation's highest civilian honor, the Presidential Medal of Freedom, on two of the least deserving athletes of all time. Simone Biles, a gold medalist gymnast who most recently quit on her team in the Tokyo Olympics, and Megan Rapinoe, a professional soccer player who's taken more knees than Colin Kaepernick. Jason gets to the real reason Biles and Rapinoe were honored by the Left. They represent the highest ideals of the Democratic Party: They are women, black, and gay. "Fearless" contributor Steve Kim adds his cutting criticism on Biden's selections and his “approval rating” on Simone Biles. Macy Gray spoke out against the transgender movement in an interview with Piers Morgan, then almost immediately walked it back on the "Today Show," citing her “education” on the matter. "Fearless" soldier Shemeka Michelle drops in to help “Make It Make Sense.” Following the overturn of Roe v. Wade, Virgil Walker of G3 Ministries penned a letter to black pastors urging them to break the ties between the church and the pro-choice movement. He joins Jason to tackle the subject. Plus, Delano Squires discusses his latest piece for Blaze Media on “The Great Separation” and the growing fault line dividing America. ​​Today's Sponsor: Bring the American family to the table again with Good Ranchers! Right now, get $30 off your order! Plus, FREE shipping is a huge cost covered for customers. Use my code, “FEARLESS”, or visit https://GoodRanchers.com/FEARLESS. Shout Out from Jason: Do you love gifts? Would you want to request a personal shout out for you, family or friends from Jason Whitlock?! Click either link below to get the official Shout Out app for Apple or Android and request a personal shout out from Jason Whitlock! Shout Out for Apple:  https://apps.apple.com/us/app/shoutout/id1541540629 Shout Out for Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.app.shoutoutapp Get 10% off Blaze swag by using code Fearless10 at https://shop.blazemedia.com/fearless Make yourself an official member of the “Fearless  Army!” Support Conservative Voices! Subscribe to BlazeTV at https://get.blazetv.com/FEARLESS and get $10 off your yearly subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What do three of the biggest brokerage companies have to say about crypto? They don't all agree...so which one is right for your future? ================ LISTENER QUESTION/COMMENTS ================ I have an old 401k plan from a previous employer. How do I decide to roll it into a new plan or not (Martin, Memphis TN How do you pick a good insurance company if you don't like their quarterback (Jason) Do we have to budget or is there something easier to do (Mindy, Thankful in Washington) What does the tool of money mean for you (Big J) ================ TOPICS ================ What are the three trade-offs to consider when making life decisions (yes, money is one). RED ALERT WARNING - Airline miles aren't always what they are made out to be. ================ ENCORE ================ Get your questions answered on the show: GoAskScott.com Schools Don't Teach About Money. Make Sure Your Child Doesn't End Up A Money Moron. Click To Learn More: https://BestMoneyAcademy.com?utm_source=libsyn  

EP259- Listener Questions News Amazon is building Micro Fulfillment Centers to deliver fast-moving grocery & convenience SKUs in under 45mins. Locations include Seattle, DC, Baltimore, Dallas, Nashville, Detroit, Chicago, San Diego, Phoenix launching this year. Listener Questions Ted: will headless commerce take off in 2021? why/why not? RetailRazor: Amazon has been getting hit w/an endless series of media articles about their private label development at the expense of other merchants on the platform. But #retailers have been doing this since, well, forever. Ex. – Dept Stores private label apparel. Why is Amazon different? Wanda Cadigan: We’re seeing a big increase in visual media use cases for e-com. It’s the new digital proxy for in-store experience. Curious on your thoughts around shoppable video trends and adoption esp. in Americas. Darin Archer: When will we have a major paradigm shift from the online store? Category pages and PDP’s seem dated in the era of TikTok. Instagram shopping and all those other things are like pop-up shops. When will retailers make a big step change in the experience? Brendan Witcher: When will the Jason And Scot Show T-shirts finally be made available and can I have mine signed before you send it? You guys rock! Thanks for helping to keep balance in the (retail) Force. Kevin Cronin: Thoughts on e-com conversion tracking and how it has +/- impacted companies/industry. BinhWinn: What do you think is keeping Amazon from entering the promising African market? Kelly Goetsch:  Looking forward to the episode! I’m seeing all the CX-related vendors (Salesforce, SAP, Bloomreach, Acquia, etc) building or buying CDPs in the past ~12 months. I get the value of CDPs but why were all of these acquisitions done so rapidly? Is this related to 3rd party cookies? tec_wiz: We have seen a significant “stimi” bounce on Amazon, do both of you feel the reopening exuberance will keep the sales acceleration going and if so for how long? Interested to see if you two are in the Jamie Dimon camp? Trevor Sumner: There will be a multi-billion media shift to in-store.  Who controls the brand spend?  Will it be media folks?  Will shopper marketing and trade dollars increase?  How will brand orgs need to transform to take advantage of the digitized store? Scott Silverman: What do you think will be the most surprising post-pandemic consumer behaviors that e-commerce retailers should prepare for? Episode 259 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded live on Thursday April 8, 2021. http://jasonandscot.com Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing. Transcript Jason: [0:24] Welcome to the Jason and Scott show this is episode 259 being recorded on Thursday April 8 I’m your host Jason retailgeek Goldberg and as usual I’m here with your co-host Scot Wingo. Scot: [0:39] Hey Jason and welcome back Jason and Scot show listeners Jason how’s your spring going up there and sunny Chicago. Jason: [0:47] It is going well but you you’ve already thrown me for a loop I don’t deal with change and you took the year out of our intro thing so I total I’m totally messed up now. Scot: [1:01] It’s 20 21 so you’re back. Jason: [1:04] Thanks thanks I appreciate you appreciate you saving me ya know spring is going good we had two lovely days of like, like High 70 low 80 degree weather here and I got super excited and then as is often going to happen in Chicago it was all a mirage because today it’s like 16 raining. Scot: [1:24] Want want want sorry to hear that here in North Carolina it’s funny because we’ve had, Bob’s Ilion New people move to our state some of them from the Midwest a lot from California New York and when they move here we’re always like hey in February, used to be get ready for pollen season it’s going to be like unlike anything you’ve ever seen in their lap and like we have pain and San Francisco are you crazy and then are real pollen season hits which were in the thick of right now and they lose their minds because you literally get a you know coating on your car where your car is essentially just looks like it’s been painted yellow so we are in heavy heavy pollen season right now, I have seasonal allergies so I am you know pretty pretty loosey-goosey right now I think I’ve had like 16 Benadryl ‘s and 5’s vertex of so if I’m a little spacey it’s due to that. Jason: [2:14] I love that yeah I was going to ask if you like develop a stronger immunity system because that would that would wreak havoc on me although it has to be good for the car wash industry. Scot: [2:27] It is so that’s the computer that’s the Silver Lining so yes we we are very very busy right now so it’s good a good thing. Jason: [2:35] Yeah where I grew up in Southern California we had a very similar issue the saltwater from the beach would make all the cars filthy. Scot: [2:45] Good we will have to look at San Diego as a possible location. Jason: [2:49] Yeah the beachfront homes in San Diego. Scot: [2:53] So tonight we have a lot of good listener questions but before we get to that it wouldn’t be a Jason Scott show if we didn’t talk about a little breaking Amazon news. Jason: [3:11] News your margin is their opportunity. Scot: [3:20] Jason I was excited as our resident grocery Guru in the chief digital grocery retail. Grocery grocery store officer I wanted to get your expert opinion I saw this on Twitter I guess there’s a magazine called hungry and it’s missing a bunch of vowels H NG Ry, hindery and they had a scoop so they have confirmed that Amazon is building 11. A hundred and forty thousand square foot micro fulfillment centers. It’s kind of funny to talk about a hundred forty thousand square feet and taught micro but I guess you know when the alternative is a million it is small, and they are designed to move a hundred thousand fast-moving Grocery and convenience cues in less than 45 minutes, and the initial set of cities are Seattle Washington D.C Baltimore Dallas Nashville Detroit Chicago San Diego Phoenix and going to be launching them this year. This is super interesting to me because we had we’ve had several amazonians on the show past amazonians, and Amazon does these pretty big Cycles on an annual basis where they’re going to make big Investments and to me this was a really big signal that they’ve decided that this is an important category. So I tweeted about this and then I had several. [4:39] What I would call Amazon insiders not bullies but people that are maybe in orbit away from Amazon and know what’s kind of going on and the thing that surprised me is that there, they were saying that go puff we’ve talked a little bit about on the show but I want to use this entree into that to get your thoughts on that too. They are growing at a tremendous Pace I’ve heard several people say they have over a billion dollars in sales they are a retailer so it’s not a gmv Marketplace kind of thing so GM ve is real Revenue. And then they didn’t acquisition of an alcohol company that was also about a billion dollars so now they’ve got kind of a two billion dollar company they’re going after some categories and areas Amazon is very keen to get to so the grocery and alcohol, I looked him up in some of the databases that go plows raised over two billion dollars you know squarely in the, if passed the Unicorn status which is over a billion dollar valuation I think they’re into the DECA unicorn kind of status so really interesting moves here you’re kind of I guess a battle between these two folks breaking out into the open what do you think about all that. Jason: [5:49] Yeah yeah there’s a lot of interesting stuff going on there the maybe I’ll start with BevMo and work backwards to Amazon Amazon or go puff and work backwards to Amazon. The you know we talk a lot about covid accelerating trends that already existed this whole notion of. Delivering alcoholic beverages was already really starting to pick up some steam we’ve had drizzly on the show before which was one is one of the dominant players in in alcohol delivery and most of them are via these. These are complicated Marketplace models because you have to do the delivery from someone that has a liquor license. [6:30] And so then the pandemic vastly accelerated liquor delivery because under normal circumstances the vast majority of alcohol is consumed. What the industry calls on premises which means at a bar and so because you know Bars were closed or constrained so much, we certainly were consuming way more alcohol at home which means we had to buy it or get it delivered, we got a bunch of meals delivered from restaurants that weren’t allowed to bundle alcohol with them in many cases so all of these Trends made it really accelerated the alcohol delivery industry and. I don’t you know we don’t there’s not great numbers but my sense is that no one benefited more than go puff and partly because they, are closer to a first-party model so they did by a very significant alcohol chain on the west coast BevMo. Um so they own a bunch of their own liquor licenses they own a lot of product that they deliver to people, and they actually started out not delivering the liquor but delivering the snacks so go puff started out do everything you know Munchies presumably to people that were high. [7:47] Um hence the go puff delivering snacks on college campuses and so. Part of their model is they actually inventory their own snacks they have these micro fulfillment centers and so buying BevMo give them a bunch of liquor licenses and it also gave them a bunch of locations that they could stage. [8:09] There there fast-moving food alcohol items and go puff is always focused on cold so they’re one of the best. Nationwide cold chain one hour delivery services so if you need to store something cold and then deliver it. They’re one of the few options out there so for all those reasons. Go puff is booming then you know we throw in the trend we’ve talked about a lot on this show the retail media networks and all these sellers you know monetizing their business by selling ads, so you know go puff has been able to successfully get a nice chunk of AD revenue from that, and I have to believe Amazon sees that and says hey we need you know they obviously have a lot of their own plans and capabilities around to our delivery of those kind of items, and I’ll bet you go puff is sort of accelerating Amazon’s aspirations. Scot: [9:06] Another another Insider told me that go puff has an ad Network that’s kind of getting a fair amount of traction and that’s another thing that Amazon’s attention you know we’ve talked about on the show that they’re their ad Network. It’s getting a lot of steam it’s kind of getting to be almost the scale of AWS and contributing quite a bit of profit it’s in the kind of pesky other category so it has some other things mixed in there but from what we can tell it’s pretty pretty large and growing making Amazon the third largest ad Network behind Google and Facebook. What do you think about does that make sense to you or you familiar with this go puff ad Network. Jason: [9:46] Yeah a little bit It’s Tricky I do think they’re generating some significant Revenue. The the wrinkle is. Advertising for alcohol is dicey so you know so I think what go puff is generating the most is is right these ad revenue from the these like cpg snacks and things like that that are getting delivered, with the alcohol like the you know the bummer is the alcohol people spend so much money on pram and with that clothes they would have shifted a bunch of money into these other channels but it’s. It’s risky to do and and you know most of the big players aren’t willing to take those. Those sort of risks with with the various compliance and to do so. So that’s a little complicated and then I you know I would say they’re probably generating a bunch of Revenue but it’s not a very mature platform with a lot of tools yet and so I haven’t seen any. Any sizing on it. Scot: [10:46] So that is the news and now let’s go into. Jason: [11:01] This question question question question question. Scot: [11:08] All right our first listener question comes from Ted and he says and I’m going to shoot this one over to you Jason well headless Commerce take off in 2021 why or why not. Jason: [11:23] Yeah, talked about a lot we’ve covered it few times on this show just for people that may not be familiar it’s a it’s a method of. Implementing an e-commerce site so instead of a piece of software that’s kind of a monolithic software that has all the check out functions and product catalog functions and all those sorts of things with the user interface. Um it’s a it’s a system where, where the software company provides a bunch of apis and you kind of build your own e-commerce experience leveraging those apis and it generally you build your own user interface so hence it’s headless, um and it’s the definitely the most trendy architecture right now it’s talked about the most. [12:16] The and it kind of is catching on but the reality is we’re just not really going to know because one of the problems with headless Comet or it’s a benefit of headless Commerce but it’s a problem when you’re tracking it is. You can do it very piecemeal right so you could you could have mostly monolithic software and you could say oh you know what, my checkout isn’t very good and I can’t take all the the alternative payment methods I’d like so I’m just gonna, improve my checkout flow and so you could add a couple headless apis just for the checkout flow and it could be. Four percent of your total e-commerce site but now you’re partly headless so you know so I would say. [13:02] Most people that build something new are going to adopt a technology like that but it often is very incremental versus a big bang where you kind of rip out everything you had and put something else in so it’s it’s a little bit like the. The so slowly increasing water temperature in the Frog like we’re all getting boiled by headless Commerce but like I don’t know when you’ll officially declare it like taking off versus not taking off. Scot: [13:29] Yeah and so some of the big players so there’s Commerce tool or tools and then, Faisal has a company called Fabric and we had some confusion over multiple Fabrics but he is one of the fabrics and then anyone else there’s because I’ve seen I’ve seen some of the Shopify folks and sidebar it seems like they’ve hired everyone I know in e-commerce at Shopify those guys are hiring it’s like some kind of an incredible clip right now. I see them all talking about how they effectively, are at least framing Shopify as being a headless player which doesn’t make sense to me bless there’s like some study Pi is enough moveth so who are the players and is Shopify a player. Jason: [14:10] Yeah so there’s kind of a couple categories of platforms that that offer headless Commerce and it’s such a buzzword I like a lot of other things I would argue people that like. Are are not very truly headless Commerce. Have an offering they would call head owes Commerce but so there’s a bunch of traditional platforms that were monoliths that saw this trend coming and kind of pivoted right so, to me that would be someone like an Alaska path, that that kind of had a turnkey platform and they really like focused on the Headless version of that platform and today I think. [14:45] Any new customer is probably mostly headless the all of the the brand new platforms tend to be headless so certainly fabric. Um There there’s a bunch of small players it’s pretty fragmented industry you mentioned Commerce tools which to my knowledge was really the first platform out there that was headed west so there now they’ve been I want to say they’ve been doing headrests for like 10 years they were originally a spin-off of hybris before sap bottom. And so those guys have been doing ahead of us for a long time and. Traction but then there’s the the traditional SAS players and the two biggest examples would be Salesforce Commerce Cloud which formerly was demandware and Shopify in both of those are. Monolith software that’s offered via SAS but both companies have recognized the Headless Trend and have launched. Separate products which are an API SAS model so you can rent. Salesforce Commerce apis and build your own head with solution that leverages the Salesforce infrastructure and similarly you can. Via Shopify plus you can rent apis from Shopify and build a headless solution and Shopify plus so they they both are very legitimate. [16:11] Head West Solutions but I would say you know as a percentage of their total user base it’s a small minority of their user base that have that headless configuration. And then in the case of Salesforce one other note I would make is, one of the problems with headless is okay so now you don’t have a user experience or a GUI and you have to build that yourself and there’s cost associated with that and you may or may not be good at that you may not follow all the, the industry convention so there’s pros and cons to not getting a, a store in a box and particularly as we talked about on this show a lot mobile is so complicated and evolving so fast that there was a company out there called MOBA 5 that had built a really good. Mobile user interface that could leverage all of these these Head West Commerce tax and they were acquired last year by Salesforce because that’s. There’s so much energy there so now somewhat ironically, you can buy MOBA fi user interface and Salesforce Commerce cloud apis and put them together and I you know you’re technically headless on the one hand but on the other hand you got a complete TurnKey solution from Salesforce. Scot: [17:30] Yeah it’s like when you were a kid remember those things that had like three little sections and you can change the purple head the body and the feet so sounds like that’s kind of where we’re going to. Jason: [17:39] Yeah I mean that the simple metaphor for these platforms are like Legos right so you know you get a kid a little Legos and you can you can snap them together like the picture on the outside of the box or you can you know snap them together in an entirely different way if you. [17:57] Um so let’s go to the next question also from Twitter this is from retail razor and the question is Amazon has been getting hit with an endless series of media articles about the private label development at the expense of other merchants on the platform, but retailers have been doing this since well forever example department stores private label apparel why is Amazon different. Scot: [18:25] Yeah and this is a while I’m an Amazon Guru I’m not a huge on politics but but this is a political kind of thing that’s going on here so you know you’ve got so you got Jeff Bezos world’s richest man I think at this point yeah I think Elon is kind of catching up to him at some point I think they crossed for a little bit one what does. Jason: [18:50] They did but it shouldn’t even count because you know Jeff Bezos has like ex-wife that also has 40 billion dollars. Scot: [18:57] True yeah but she’s not giving it away as quickly as you can so she may actually. Jason: [19:02] She’s much more admirable than him that’s true. Scot: [19:05] She may be the millionaire poor house and then, you know another thing is he bought the Washington Post which is you know also seems to have caused a lot more political kind of Venom to come his way. And you know Amazon itself is a big company and you know there’s they’re just easy to shoot at and so you’re hearing a lot of talk antitrust talk a lot of folks want to break them up, the two most vocal that I see are Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren yeah they very much want to break those guys up Bernie Sanders is always talking about how they pay more and you know. If you look at the disparity between what Jeff Bezos makes and the $15 an hour employee that’s a big number. [20:01] Let’s Elizabeth warrant then there’s Amazon doesn’t pay taxes because they take every penny they make in plow it back into growing and hiring more people and and buying where houses and building, we just talked about they’re going to build you know what it was at Eleven Hundred and forty thousand square feet facility centers that’s not cheap I don’t know. Each of those maybe 50 million bucks so that’s 6 billion dollars right there, you know so so they don’t they take every penny of profit and they just see such a big opportunity they keep plowing it in and therefore they don’t make profit and you get taxed on profit so they don’t really pay taxes and then of course everything he does a lot of you know. Corporate all legal but corporate setups so that they can avoid taxes like. They’ll have their European group and some kind of a tax-free area and you know they will set up the structure of the companies to minimize taxes globally and then also the United States. [21:02] So I think that’s why they’re under a Target and then you know there’s it’s also really easy to find third-party sellers that are brands that have sold on there and a private label came out of their stuff and it’s, it’s kind of catnip for reporters to find a, it’s very easy to find people that are very upset about Amazon I see it on Twitter all the time yeah there’s third-party sellers that are very unhappy about the way they’re treated and creates a lot of possible content. So that’s that’s my take I think it is. If this ever got into a court and you were looking at the facts I think retail razors right that there’s nothing new going on here and it’s kind of silly to argue this, it’s even silly the argue the antitrust argument because you know I think it’s pretty fair to Define Amazon in the same context as Walmart right and. [21:57] Walmart is as big or bigger so it’s not like Amazon is got some. Position compared to like a Walmart targets really big there are other very big large retailers and there’s it’s also hard to point to note the consumer being harmed. Poor consumers they’re getting cheaper stuff faster its there’s not a lot of, it’s not like a monopoly where your price gouging or there’s no choice anything Amazon’s Lord prices and increased choice. Now that being said if you look at Europe Dave kind of defined monopolies differently in there it doesn’t have to be a consumer damage so there’s a lot of talk about that kind of coming, and then the Biden Administration hired someone that has that similar kind of a take on on antitrust that it’s really. The size and not the the consumer. [22:50] So those are my loose reading of some of the political winds you know what. My take is companies move a thousand times faster than governments and they’ll be able to, navigate whatever the government throws out them succeed if we all remember well you and I remember the Microsoft all the who are around antitrust, Microsoft’s doing okay after that they’re they did find they had to just kind of do some, little things around their browser they spend a bunch of money around it but at the end of the day it was effectively a slap on the wrist of anything so so I don’t think it’s just a lot of noise and I don’t really foresee there being anything that slows down Amazon from this. How about you Jason. Jason: [23:31] Yeah I mean there’s a lot there I won’t rehash it all but. [23:39] I think you’re right like I think the biggest companies in capitalist economies are always, targets for a lot of concern and they’re generally there are always some valid concerns and there’s always a lot of. Scrutiny that isn’t necessarily valid right and certainly you know Walmart’s head is fair its fair share and before that Sears did and, before that Montgomery Ward’s and Woolworths and A&P like you can go back as far as you want, these big huge retailers like there have always been concerns about their size. The bottom line is the you know us antitrust laws are not super strong and the way they’re in written and enforced today. I just don’t think. Amazon has very much risk so per your point they’re probably way more exposed in Europe where there’s a much broader perspective on, but the the thing that a lot of these lawmakers are going after is just, right / retail razors Point like is it kind of a misunderstanding like there’s this thing oh my gosh Amazon’s using. [24:49] Sales data from their third-party sellers to design their first party products and when you say it like that it doesn’t sound very fair, but the point is retailers have been doing that for the entire history of retail I mean you know Sears had a lot of Their Own Private Label products in the Sears catalog you know listeners may be familiar with Brands like Kenmore and crap. [25:12] Craftsman and you know all these these various brands that Sears built right you know doing these exact same thing so, that’s not new they’re some antitrust people would say oh but you know what’s different about Amazon is there also a platform in an ad Network and they get extra data from that, that a traditional retailer wouldn’t get so they would say I don’t object to Amazon using the retail data to make their own products but I object to them using their, their platform data and their their the ad spend data that they’re getting, but even that to me is a thin argument because every other retailer have advertising programs and co-op programs and slotting fees and things like that so I just. Um I think there’s some legitimate things to look at all these companies about but I think that particular one is a hard argument and and again the US antitrust laws are pretty heavily in Amazon’s favor so I think we’re always going to hear about this stuff but I don’t think. Amazon’s fundamentally different than than previous private-label efforts the one thing that is better about Amazon you know and therefore you know potentially more concerning is. Amazon. [26:32] Collects a lot more data about how you shop and what you don’t buy right so a traditional retailer doesn’t know very well. What other products you considered on the way to buying the brand that you bought but Amazon you know because by virtue of them being online, they collect much more data about your browsing behavior before you buy and so that’s not saying it’s it’s an antitrust violation to use that data but that is a new data set that you know Sears and Walmart, didn’t necessarily have it at their disposal so yeah I think we’ll keep hearing about it the, you kind of alluded to it but one funny thing that happened this week our Prime not funny dramas on, the rumor is that Jeff was upset that Amazon Executives weren’t defending Amazon aggressively enough for all of this this noise, and so it appears that a bunch of Amazon execs totally stepped up their social presence and started arguing. [27:30] Up to and including arguing with like sitting Congress people on Twitter, um a congressperson you know is complaining about labor standards in Amazon and made reference to Amazon employees having a pee and Bottles because they can’t take a break, and a senior vice president Amazon like chimed in like that’s absurd I can’t believe you believe those rumors, if that was really true do you think people would really want to work for us. Um and then a week later Amazon had to print a retraction and say like it turns out a bunch of our employees do have to be in bottles. [28:03] But so do UPS’s so that probably like when you have to issue that press release that’s not a good look. Scot: [28:10] Yeah that’s a tough one and it is confusing because there’s the DSP program aren’t really Amazon employees but they’re just that I guess during a branded truck they get that kind of assumed. Jason: [28:22] Yeah so again. Scot: [28:23] This one is this next one is for you Jason and it comes from listener Wanda cadogan. [28:47] Wanda hope you enjoyed that we know that’s your favorite song now to your question we are seeing a big increase in visual media use cases for e-commerce it’s the new digital proxy for in-store experience I’m curious about your thoughts around Shopville video Trends in adoption especially in the Americas. There’s a there was another question that will kind of group together here in this one came from Darren Archer when will we have a major paradigm shift from the online store category pages and pdp’s seem dated in the era of tick tock Instagram shopping and all these other things that are like pop-up shops when will retailers big change step change in the experience. Jason: [29:27] Yeah both good questions and I do I do agree they’re bundled and side note I think I’m assuming daren’t an Archer is a former Adobe Alaska path and now at the Gap so so he, has definitely been around a lot of the issues that were we’re talking about today. So so yeah the. Video Commerce and is often called live-streaming Commerce although a ton of it is not live streaming is huge right now it’s it’s even Huger in China where by some estimates, eleven or twelve percent of all e-commerce is live streaming, um more more consumers start their shopping trip on Ali Baba’s a live streaming site than they do on Team all right now, so so this live streaming Commerce has totally exploded in China and there. Appears to be appetite for it in the US as well and so you’re definitely seeing. The platforms that that can support it so most notably Instagram and Tik Tok. Um are we leaning heavily into it and we’ve seen Walmart due to two pilots where they had Commerce events on Tik-Tok now, and. [30:54] The jury’s out on like social commerce in the in the west is way smaller than it is in China so it may be 12 percent of e-commerce and in China and it’s like 4% of e-commerce here so, so it has a ways to go in the jury is out on whether Chinese consumers are different than Western consumers and it’s never going to catch on or whether they’re just ahead of Western consumers and they kind of WEP frog. Um so we’ll have to see but I can tell you a ton of retailers and brands are super interested right now and the part of the reason is implied in Wanda’s question. Um a sort of Inconvenient Truth about all of this e-commerce that we’ve invented is. We’ve made it very easy to find products that you know you want and buy them and we’ve taken all the friction out of the buying process and so you know there’s a saying. E-commerce solved buying but broke shopping, right so you know it’s super easy to buy stuff you can go on Amazon there’s 800 million products you type it in the search engine a product pops up you click one button and it shows up two hours later you’re good. Um weather is not is. [32:09] Discovering products you never knew you wanted right like there’s never like creating demand for products a lot of the things that traditionally stores were good at and a lot of you know Discovery experiences that happen in stores. E-commerce isn’t particularly good at and so the hypothesis is that this social commerce. Has the potential to replace all those Discovery experiences and the way I think of it as kind of decoupling Commerce like the buying and browsing used to both happen in a store and that was kind of the monolithic solution. [32:46] The digital disruption of Commerce means. Buying and browsing now can be decoupled and browsing can happen in all these micro moments on Tick-Tock and Pinterest and and taobao, and the buying can happen in another moment on Amazon or Walmart or or wherever else so, I definitely think there, it is we’re going to see it can continue to increase I don’t know whether we’ll catch up to China in the near future or not but they’re you know appears to be a lot of Headroom and therefore sure is a lot of interest. Of in retailers and brands that want to experiment in the space and platforms that want to you know capitalize on those experiments so I have major, social commerce initiatives with almost every client right now that are kind of you know mostly in the test and learn mode. Scot: [33:43] Um couple things you didn’t mention Amazon’s poke around here they have Amazon live which is this video program that’s kind of running and it’s pretty terrible right now but you know I’ve seen some stuff start to get some traction there. They have a couple of influencers that that hop on there and don’t forget that Amazon owns twitch so there’s, there’s Twitches really started with video game streaming and there’s there’s a lot more that platform is widening there’s some interesting things we’ve had some Congress people get on there we’ve had, um [34:18] There’s a lot of interesting music content and then there’s a lot of innovative new social media companies like Clubhouse and some point maybe they’ll be some selling that happens to some of those channels. The other one is I highly recommend everyone make sure you listen to our deep dive episode recently. We talked about all the changing privacy rules I think that’s going to be another Catalyst for this because Facebook is in this kind of squeeze between Apple and Google in a way. Facebook doesn’t have a platform like they do so, Facebook could lose some ad revenue and they’re doing a lot to replace that through a variety of different experiments and I think we’ll see a Facebook doing a lot more in this this area, and they on Instagrams and Instagram alive is getting a lot of Engagement as well so, a lot of interesting platforms were this kind of live streaming and more social commerce could come from. Jason: [35:16] Yeah hundred percent Amazon’s done a ton of experiments and and twitch is a very powerful platform so like I certainly. I think Amazon is you know at the front of this trend along with several other Front Runners. Scot: [35:32] This one this one this next question is it’s a it’s a tough one so I’m going to throw it at you here comes from Brendan Witcher and I can’t hear his name without hearing the toss a coin to hear what your song and anyway mr. whicher says when will the Jason and Scot show t-shirts finally be made available in can I have mine signed before you send it you guys rock thanks for helping to keep balance in the, parentheses retail Force thanks Brendon Jason any your our chief swag officer Chief swag digital retail grocery officer what what’s the take. Jason: [36:08] Yeah great question Brandon appreciate it. So we do have some swag and I’m sure I’m going to regret saying this but if you ping me on Twitter I will be happy to send any listeners some Jason and Scott. Riri a pliable stickers for your laptops and and the your bedroom windows and all that good stuff. We have not offered t-shirts I’m open to it I have to be honest got and you weigh in on this as well. Rrr logo Works reasonably as podcast cover art, but it’s kind of intricate for a t-shirt I just I’m not sure what looks cool like I feel like we need a more elegant logo. For a T-shirt and then side note I would also point out like you and I have both lost some significant weight since the characters were done so I like part of me before we invested in a lot of apparel I’d want like skinny or characters. Scot: [37:12] Yeah yeah we’ll have to maybe we’ll have a con reader contest readers can submit their their artwork let’s see you again from and then most of. Jason: [37:22] Yeah and side note when he says bring balance to the force I assume we all knew that you’re the dark side of that. Scot: [37:29] Okay ouch I’ll point out that your son is clearly on the dark side. Jason: [37:36] Well but my son also likes you more than me so that’s further proof. Scot: [37:40] I can’t no accounting for Taste okay back to real questions so this one is from Kevin Cronin what are your thoughts on e-commerce conversion tracking and how it has positively and negatively impacted companies in the industry. Jason: [37:59] Wow so I don’t know what your angle for asking this question is but it’s a great question in my mind I am anti e-commerce conversion so it’s a. [38:10] Super important and useful metric but for my entire career I’ve been walking into situations where people were using it as a kpi and for me it’s an incredibly stupid kpi because I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had clients a Json I want to hire you to improve my conversion, and my answer is always the same that’s awesome I accept because, I’m gonna do a white make your eCommerce site password only so that only good customers that I know have buying intent are going to come in and your conversion rates going to go through the roof, you’re your revenue and traffic will go way down right because conversion is related to all these other things, um and while it’s possible to do multi-session conversion the overwhelming majority of people when they talk about e-commerce conversion are talking about single session conversion, and very often it’s not profitable the cell one thing one time. And so again so for all of those reasons I think you need better kpis like for sure conversion is a metric that that should be included in your. Your overall ecosystem but that’s not the thing that should be steering your business and and I don’t know if this is, what you were implying in your question Kevin but like there’s a shockingly high amount of e-commerce operators that that give too much Credence to conversion. Scot: [39:37] Interesting or you guys give products away if you really want to increase conversion. Jason: [39:42] Yeah yeah I can sell dollar bills for for 98 cents and have a very high conversion rate I would throw. I had something else I was going to add to the conversion conversation but I’ve totally lost my train of thought so I should have come to rehearsal. Scot: [40:00] Are so all the tracking changes aren’t going to really change conversion while still no when people are on our side. Jason: [40:09] On site conversion again if you’re doing more nuanced multi-touch attribution type conversions there some of the depreciation of the third party cookies and the in the mobile tracking is. Going to make that more difficult so we’ll see how that that all. Toys out oh I do remember my other point on conversion a fun fact about conversion average conversion rates on e-commerce sites today, are almost identical to what they were in 2000 like the its chin mobile has changed a lot but. [40:46] The the overall desktop conversion rate hasn’t changed very much like a cross, there’s huge deviation but across a ton of sites it’s about 2% of Visitors by something as we’ve already talked about. Stupid metric and a lot of those people didn’t come to the side to buy something maybe they wanted to check your store hours or your your your store address or all sorts of other things, but what I always chuckle about that is there’s this whole industry of conversion rate optimization companies and what they do is they come in with this one tactic which is multivariate testing, and they say like we’re going to improve your user experience and dramatically improve your conversion rate and there’s a bunch of companies that have been doing that for 20 years, and yet the conversion rate in our experiences today is exactly the same as it was 20 years ago and so like we like to joke that like all conversion optimization regresses to the mean. How’s that for a math joke. Scot: [41:45] It is good if conversion isn’t a good kpi then what are Jason recommended gibbous. Jason: [41:53] Yeah so go listen to. Our customer lifetime value show with Dan McCarthy and and to me metrics around LTV or seal the are much more valuable, then then just conversion rate even if you’re going to adopt a conversion rate I like to do some some more. More derived conversion rates that I sometimes call the real conversion rate where I infer your mission from some of your on-site behavior and I only look at the conversion rate of people that actually had some buying intent right so, so in that example you would, you would take all the people that used your store locator or you know left on the rating and review page or something else or the warranty page you wouldn’t count all of them in your conversion rate because they probably had some mission that they accomplished on your website that was other than buying something but for sure. Having a multi-touch attribution system and ultimately getting to a COV or LTV as the way to go as far as I’m concerned. So let’s move on to the next question bin win what do you guys think is keeping Amazon from entering the promising African Market. Scot: [43:20] Yeah Amazon’s Geographic expansion has definitely slowed if you look at kind of the last markets they’ve opened up, think they’re opening a Poland right now, India has been a big one and they’ve just really that one seems to I’ll use this analogy of kind of the snake eating the pig right so so India seems they went storming in there and it seems to have been a handful for them they really haven’t done a huge meaningful expansion since India my recollection I don’t think Poland would count as huge, then there’s Brazil and Australia are kind of in that category of most recently geographies they’ve opened and I think what’s going on there is. You know they have to evaluate every opportunity just like any other company even though they’re huge they have not endless resources so they’re always having to figure out where to apply them. And you know I could say the same thing for South America South America. Commerce is really complicated because you’ve got a big cluster of countries you’ve got different languages currencies shipping things, now mercadolibre in South America has gone in there and figured all that out Africa is you take, you take South America and I think Africa is like four times the complexity there inside of Africa you’ve got on the order of 50 countries. [44:45] Lots of complexity and you know if your Amazon do you. Go after that or can you go get that in 10 years let it mature and worry more about go puff taking you know a big grocery category United States, so I think that’s really what it is it’s a prioritization exercise and for whatever reason Africa just has made it to that priority I guess you could say they’ve also expanded the Middle East through that acquisition they did, of a big Marketplace there yeah haven’t really heard much about that I haven’t heard them adding 1 p 2 that or anything or I only think they rebranded I think they wanted it as almost like Zappos as its own kind of little Standalone thing sounds kind of weird because in the past when they would go into a new geography by acquisition they would Rebrand it too Amazon Japan it was on China this raw Acquisitions to my knowledge they haven’t rebranded suit could all and kind of the brand their Stokes I think that’s what is required is a sure thing Jason Do you have a. Jason: [45:51] Yeah well I’m not sure if you’re aware of this but strategy is actually one of the words in my title. [45:58] And it’s a little known fact but in order to get a strategy certificate you have to have a great affinity for a 2 by 2 Matrix, and I don’t know if you remember who did this I feel bad that I don’t but I used to attend the channel advisor conferences and they would always do this great. Session on the latest trends and opportunities in global expansion and they always started with this 2 by 2 Matrix and, one axis is complexity and the other axis is opportunity right and so you think complexity how hard is it to go into that, Channel what you know what’s the regulatory environment what’s the currency environment what’s the language environment and Africa is actually High complexity because, there really is no African continent from a Commerce standpoint, there’s a bunch of countries there’s like 50 for different countries mostly with unique languages and unique regulations and unique currencies so the complexity is very high, and the opportunity at the moment is pretty low penetration of e-commerce in Africa on a per capita basis is much lower in the spend is much lower than a lot of these more established market so I, I’m sure there’s a long-term aspiration for Amazon to dominate the whole planet before they get to Mars but, in the short run I just feel like that Africa hasn’t done as well on that on that two by two Matrix that I got from Channel advisor. Scot: [47:26] Yeah and I’ve actually talked to a fair number of South Africans and they order a lot from Amazon and Amazon has some kind of a global cross-border trade thing where you can actually shop from Amazon and get it shipped to you in South African and not crazy amount of time so there is an interesting not native Amazon shopping going on in certain areas of Africa that I’ve heard about. Jason: [47:52] Yeah for sure and not saying there’s not an opportunity now I’m just saying if you’re if you have limited treasure that it may not you know you may get more value out of your India investment then you are Africa and the short run. Scot: [48:04] Yeah and if you’re already like covering half of the opportunity through this cross-border trade solution than that even is better. All right here’s one for you Jason this comes from Kelly gauche I think is how you’re going to feel so looking forward to that pisode I’m seeing all the CX related vendors Salesforce sap Bloom reach, acquia Etc building or buying cdp’s in the past 12 months I get the value of cdp’s but why we’re all of these Acquisitions done so rapidly is this related to the third-party cookie changes coming. Jason: [48:42] Good question so sidenote Kelly is the chief technology officer at Commerce tools who were talking about earlier and he’s also the author of. I think at least two books that are published by Riley on headless Commerce so we probably should have forwarded the Headless Commerce question to Kelly. With regards to his CDP question for listeners that may not be familiar CDP stands for customer data platform. Um and so this is a tool that was primarily developed for advertising although it’s now used for some other things. Where you build a database of unique customer IDs and what you know about those customers and you use it for marketing purposes and mostly for targeting ads win to win to show what adds to what customers. Um and they are super trendy right now the. [49:38] Has the acquisition spree been been accelerated by the Privacy changes that we talked about a couple weeks ago. My short answer is probably but it’s interesting because those privacy changes both help and hurt cdp’s, they make that first party data in a CDP more valuable, um but they actually make it harder to collect that data and they make it harder to activate that data on not first-party data and so I in the aggregate. I’m not sure. [50:14] I sort of doubt that all these Acquisitions are because the cdp’s very clearly go up in value as a result of these privacy changes in some ways. [50:26] More customers opting out and more attention to privacy means that cdp’s get smaller, um and the the alternative versions of these things that don’t have uniquely identifiable data for an individual customer which are often called dmps. Maybe get bigger so that’s my long answer to say I don’t think it’s purely related to the, changes in privacy what I think is related to is, the the whole category in notion of personalization is super hyped and popular right now we actually did a deep dive on personalization a year ago that frankly I still think stands up pretty well, and in it I kind of highlight that at the moment a lot of this personalization is probably overhyped. [51:17] You know in the last year there was a lot of investment dollars that were you know looking harder for a home, you know there’s a lot of Buzz and hype around personalization and a lot of confusion about privacy and so I suspect that all of those factors. Um contributed to the the shopping spree and cdp’s but in the long run and because of the privacy issues I think the way this all plays out is. Um instead of it being super valuable for everyone to have a CDP that there’s going to be a small handful of cdp’s that are you know operated by people that have a ton of first-party data that are going to be most valuable. Scot: [51:57] Yeah I’ll just throw in there as a guy that watches kind of the SAS space and startups you have this kind of interesting musical chairs / Supply Domino thing that goes on, so you know one of the the big cloud players and I think the bigger ones would be like Salesforce sap Adobe then obviously. You know you have a little bit IBM they’re not really as aggressive especially on the e-commerce side now maybe Oracle but even they been quiet so those are the three really right now but you know what let’s say for some reason Salesforce buy something then the Corp Dev groups of other guys are out there looking and saying hmm. If there’s 10 of these then then you don’t have to do anything but if there’s one more than your Adobe or sap you have to be kind of quick because. These Cloud companies are really in an arms race against each other and. They never want to have one of them with some advantage over the others so it’s such a big space the multiples that those companies enjoy are so big, there’s a lot of Risk by not not having something so that could be one of the reasons you saw this kind of fast uptake by something was really more of, competitive concerns and keeping up with the Joneses and then a lack of Supply I don’t are there tons of CDP companies or are they kind of rare. Jason: [53:23] Um There there’s a ton of CDP companies that it’s a long tale type thing where only only you know there’s a finite supply of ones that have significant customers in them so that you that me teacher you think so I’m going to call that the domino theory of acquisition. The ones that first first acquisition Domino Falls at triggers a bunch of other Acquisitions is nobody wants to be the loser in the musical chairs right. Scot: [53:49] Yeah. Jason: [53:51] So let’s move on to the next question this is from Tech whiz we’ve seen a significant stimuli bounce on Amazon do both of you feel the reopening exuberance will keep the sales acceleration going and if so for how long interested to see if you two are in the Jamie dimon camp. Scot: [54:13] Yeah and I love these economics questions because I always beat you on these Jason so, so it’s gonna be interesting so if you kind of so you got two things going on here number one in our world your of your comps are very important right so same-store sales and comps and stuff, and that’s going to get it super easy right now because this March is obviously way better than last March and April it’s going to be way better for a lot of people. From a store perspective but then on the e-commerce side it’s going to be inverted so e-commerce is going to face really tough comps retail is going to look really good and then just so that’s going to be one aspect. And then we talked last week about that channel advisor blog and a couple other folks that were talking about this kind of. Material bump in sales from the stimulus checks kind of going out and you know so the. [55:17] I think what’s going to happen is there tide is going to rise so. Hard from the money being pumped into the system by not only stimulus checks but just. You know we just had another two trillion dollars go out there’s talk of a four trillion dollar infrastructure, some people are saying that should be five or six trillion we’ve never had so much money pumped into the system, so I kind of in my mind the metaphor there is the tide is going to rise very quickly and e-commerce will benefit from that so if we had just the year-over-year affect Commerce would look like flat to down I think. But because the tides going to be rising I think we’re going to have a really nice continued growth in e-commerce. [56:04] I also when you one of my favorite. But I’m a huge fan of Elon Musk and people eyes asking me on how how are you able to do these things that you do he always goes to core principles and His World core principles are physics you know Rocket Fuel Burns of this right in that custody. In our world the core principles are consumer behaviors and I’m I’m convinced that. You know go puff and instant card and all these things that that people have sampled through the pain Dynamic their addictive and I use that phrase zero friction addiction. The pretty sticky because once you have that really super low friction great experience it amplifies the friction of the the higher friction experience. So I think those things are going to stick it kind of a rate of 80% way more secure than a lot of people I think. [56:57] I don’t know if that puts me the Jamie I’m in Camp but I. I think those are the things so a negative is summarized a negative vizier of your comps are going to be hard on Commerce a positive is the. Not only the stimulus checks but the macro stimulus going on and then the third one is, I do think the zero friction addiction is going to also surprise people so I think that Nets out that we’re going to be surprised that we see the sales acceleration keep going and. You know the thing that can this is probably a topic for another time but then the thing that concerns me is we’ve never put this much money out there we’ve never printed so much money and at some point inflation is going to be a problem and we’re starting to see it in certain parts of the economy and food cost and Home Building things are getting pretty hot already so that could be the thing that slows it down I think that’ll probably be a early next year problem that will have to worry about what do you think Jason. Jason: [58:01] Yeah it is I mean in general I think in aggregate if you look at all of these favorable and unfavorable Trends it’s, the favorable are going to outweigh it so I think like industry averages for both retail and e-commerce will continue to go up. But the real story is going to be the winners and losers right so there there are definitely categories of consumer spending, that are likely to go backwards a little bit you know next year right like there’s huge pent-up demand for travel, and so some of those dollars that people have been you know investing in their home this year, are not going to get reinvested in their home next year they’re going to get invest in a new trip or more time in the bars and more restaurant food instead of grocery food, so I do think. There are going to be some people that are going to struggle to comp because they they were disproportionate beneficiaries this year and, and there’s going to be a counter Trend next year. [59:05] I also do think there is a little bit of a bifurcation there’s big chunks of the economy that are booming and you don’t have all this extra cash pouring in and the savings rate is going up and, all of these good things, , there’s a huge chunk of the economy that were low-wage workers many of which worked in the restaurant industry and half the restaurants aren’t going to reopen and it’s going to take five years for those jobs to come back. And there’s going to be no more economic stimulus for the rest of this year next year because once the health problem goes away, there’s going to be no appetite for passing it and so those people are going to have a really hard time in the industries that are, tied to those people are going to be challenging so I think we’re going to see a both ways but on the aggregate there’s going to be more good economic news than not, and I’m calling it right now you’re going to see it check me in a year I wish I could go back to the prediction show the new catchphrase is yacht yeah which is year over two years ago and and I’m predicting that when you do the word cloud of all the things CEOs say in their in their shareholder meetings for the next year that yeah is going to show up a little bit. Scot: [1:00:15] Yeah okay that’s weird prediction but if you say so so we are we have two questions left and we’re up against time so we’re going the lightning round Jason lightning round for you this comes from Trevor Sumner there will be a multibillion-dollar media shift to in-store who controls the brand spin. Will be media folks will Shopper marketing and trade dollars increase how will brand organizations need to transform to take advantage of the digitized store. That’s an easy one to answer and Twitter a tweet length. Jason: [1:00:50] Yeah it actually is easy to answer and lightning around like that whole industry in the siloed budgets get disrupted in the long run and I don’t know how many years it’s going to take all those budgets get Consolidated in the silos breakdown right so there there’s going to be a marketing person a CMO that that owns all of that spend and there’s not going to be a separate trade budget and all these separate retail budgets and they’re going to you know consider the next best dollar for you know Super Bowl ads against ads on the Shelf at Walmart. Scot: [1:01:24] I don’t have an opinion on that so we’ll go on to the next question and it comes from this was from Facebook Scott Silverman what do you think will be the most surprising post pandemic consumer behaviors that e-commerce retailers should prepare for. Jason: [1:01:41] Scot you want to go first Scot to Scott. Scot: [1:01:45] Um sure I yeah I you know I think the things that we’ve already tried are sticky. I’ll be controversial there’s a lot of Buzz that people are all going to work from home I think that’s over balloon I think, 90% plus the folks will go back to an office they’ll get pulled in they think they’re going to work remote and then you know what’ll happen is another domino effect so sales teams are not efficient working from home so you’ll have a sales floor and then those folks would be like well why isn’t the marketing team here supporting yes and in the marketing team will kind of come in and then they’ll be like well why aren’t the accounting folks here you know we have all these questions and now I have to hop on a zoom decimal question and they’ll be like well let’s bring the engineering team in and suddenly the whole company will be back in an office so I think that’s one that’s not going to that’s a lot of people are assuming it’s going to change that’s not it doesn’t really impact e-commerce per se but that’s one that I’ll be slightly controversial, how about you Jason. Jason: [1:02:49] Goodwin I’m so we don’t have time to get into it I don’t totally agree with you on that one so that’ll be fun will visit it again later I totally get where you’re coming from though, the the short-term one that everyone talks about that I’m many on is peacocking right like that that you know we’ve all been wearing sweats sweatpants and, and sitting in our homes for a year and so there’s going to be this counter-reaction where everyone’s going to want to wear you know you know stand out and go be very. Um gregarious and outgoing like that’s kind of what happened in the Roaring 20s after the Spanish Flu in 1918. Um so so there is some of that. Um that we might see in the short term to me the big the big thing that’s happened that people aren’t talking about enough is consolidation right that the, the pandemic dramatically and disproportionately benefited big chains over small Independence in every category but especially in retailgeek. Um and so I’ll Paris publish a new version but. Almost every public company that has reported their e-commerce growth Drew dramatically more than the industry average. [1:04:00] And the reason that’s possible is because a ton of Mom and Pops shrunk and I think there’s all kinds of implications for that but you know, Walmart Albertsons and Kroger were 40 percent of of a cpgs business before the pandemic and now they’re going to be 60% and that that’s going to be a, shift in the balance of power and a shifting leverage and and they’re all these other implications around. This enormous consolidation the chain restaurants are doing fine but all the independent restaurants are gone bars everything. I think there’s all kinds of implications from that that we’re just starting to think about are you in on that one’s got. Scot: [1:04:42] I disagree on some of that stuff but yeah well we’ll have to this is a good topic will have to revisit. Jason: [1:04:49] Yeah I like it it’s a great question Scott always appreciate your participation and that is going to be a good place to leave it because we have used up our allotted time plus gods for bonus minutes, so as always if we if you disagree with our answer or didn’t get to our reading get your question feel free to hit us up on Facebook or Twitter, um and you know as always if you enjoyed the show please give us that five star review on iTunes. Scot: [1:05:19] Thanks everyone and. Jason: [1:05:20] Until next time happy commercing!

It’s that time of year as college students start or return to school. They may think they know it all, but really know nothing. How many students does it take to change a lightbulb or turn the heat on? It’s time to grow up in the real world! Today’s guest is Peter Tverdov of Tverdov Housing. Although student rentals are management intensive, Peter actually enjoys dealing with students. It’s prepared him to take on other types of tenants to diversify and grow his business.  You’ll Learn... [02:18] Rutgers University: Becoming a landlord in New Brunswick and loving it. [02:53] Student Housing Side Hustle: Accumulate more and manage them for others. [03:24] Hindsight is 20/20 in 2020: Bad timing to start business and quit day job to grow. [04:41] Decision to deal with students and student housing led to diverse tenant groups. [06:15] Peter’s Portfolio: 65-70% student rentals, 15-20% low-income families, 5-10% middle-class/workforce housing. [08:10] Onboarding Students: Educate and set expectations to limit excuses later on. [11:00] Happy Tenant, Happy Owner: Second largest lead generator is tenant referrals. [12:57] Broken Windows Theory: Dumpy/dilapidated areas attract crime and trouble. [13:45] Tverdov Renovation Consultants: Improve properties to attract better tenants. [14:47] Avoid or Acquired Taste? Riches are in the niches as a student rentals landlord. [16:33] Other Options? Rules/laws for room rentals, individual leases, boarding houses. [20:55] Responsibility: How to be landlords and hold each other accountable. [23:35] What’s next for Tverdov Housing? Track KPIs, achieve goals, and grow doors. Tweetables Landlord Business: Slowly and discreetly acquire more properties, get your hands dirty, and deal with people. “In business, it’s good to diversify.” “Managing student rentals, it really gets you battle-tested for managing other tenants.” “We’re not for everybody. We’re fair, but firm.” Resources Tverdov Housing Tverdov Housing on Instagram DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change the perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. All right, today's guests, I'm hanging out with Pete. I’m going to see if I can say your last name right, Tverdov. And I'm going to unmute you so you can actually respond to that. Did I say it right? Pete: That was awesome. Pete Tverdov of Tverdov Housing. Pete, before we get into the topic, I want to introduce you, have you introduce yourself a little bit, but we’re going to be talking about student rental properties and the title is The Cash flow and Chaos of managing student rental properties. That sounds kind of fun. Let's get into the cash flow and chaos after we hear a little bit about your background, how did you get into this, and tell everybody who's listening about Pete. Pete: Sure. Happy to be on the show, thanks for having me. I got into it, my wife and I moved back to the Central Jersey area about six years ago and in the process of moving back we were looking to buy a multi-family, live in one unit, and it brought us to New Brunswick, where Rutgers University is. We both went to school there, we both played sports there, became a landlord, and really enjoyed the process of becoming a landlord. As I wanted to try to accumulate more rentals, I had the idea to begin managing for the people as it's something I really enjoyed doing. I enjoyed just getting your hands dirty and dealing with people. I started to do that on the side a little bit in that neighborhood, very slowly, very discreetly, and then little by little, I was just nibbling and getting more people under management because I was doing a pretty good job. About a year ago, it grew into a large enough business where I was at a crossroads with my regular job. I said you know what? I feel pretty good about this. I'm just going to dive in and really try to grow my business. That has been a bit rocky because I did that officially in January. I say rocky because of Coronavirus. The business has been good. It's been fun. I enjoy being an entrepreneur. I enjoy trying to grow the business each day and I'm happy to be here. Jason: Yes. Looking back, hindsight being 20/20, pun intended, so here in 2020, would you have chosen, if knowing that this would all happen to start your business, would you still have done it? Pete: It's such a hard question to answer because I had grown a business enough to that point where there was really no turning back. I just had a breaking point because I was working 24 hours a day. I was working in New York City. So it's just really challenging to try and juggle both really and I couldn't at that point. So was the timing the best? Definitely not. Jason: Okay, so you started getting into doing this yourself. Then you started doing it for others. At what point did you start deciding it would be a good idea to deal with students? I mean, this is your college hometown, right? It's a college town, your wife's college town, there is a college there, and it seems probably pretty obvious that you should be dealing with student housing. Were you already dealing with students with your own rentals? Pete: Yeah, that's exactly right. Every rental we owned was student housing and something I had a lot of familiarity with. For a while, I didn't want to do anything else but student rentals. About a year ago, I started to diversify that and try to pick up other tenant groups to manage, which we have, thank God, because in business it's good to diversify. But for me, anything with investing or my advice to anybody with investing is to go with what you know or the areas you know and then you branch out from there, which is what we did with the business. Again, student rentals are something we're super familiar with, super comfortable with and now we're at the point where we're happy with how much we have in the business and we're actively looking. We don't really even market too heavily to student rental landlords just because we have a sizable amount and because we know what chaos comes with managing them and how management-intensive they could be. As I said, we're trying to diversify the business. In addition to being well-known for student rentals, we want to [...] things as well. Jason: Give listeners a little bit of idea of what your portfolio looks like right now. Pete: Of our business, 65%–70% is student rentals. Another 15%–20% is lower-income families, and then the remainder is middle-class housing, workforce housing, yuppies. What's funny is managing student rentals really gets you battle-tested for managing other tenants because the other tenant groups really are a breeze. Student rentals are very management-intensive because they're 18- to 21-year-olds, so young adults. Most of them know nothing and what's worse is they think they know something which compounds the problem sometimes. I was the same way and maybe you were as well. You don't really know much when you're that age. They don't understand that they're responsible for changing light bulbs or if the heat's not working in the house, maybe it's because no one checked to see if the thermostat was even on. Stuff like that is really low hanging fruit. Jason: Yeah. Like you're saying, before anybody has kids or business or any of that, we're all experts on parenting, business, and how the world should work. I love it when my teenagers tell me how to be a better parent. I love that. That's always a really fun conversation. Everyone's an expert until they do it and then they realize they're like everybody else winging it and trying to figure out what's next. You started with the most difficult type of housing. It sounds like it was more difficult renters and tenants than anything else. It felt like it was just downhill. From there it was easier. Pete: That's right. As I said, it's just a very management-intensive group. What do I mean by that? They never signed a lease before. Some of them have never paid rent before. They've never written a check before or they don't know how to pay rent online. They don't really know what a security deposit is. They don't really know the process of getting it back. I think our business grew because we really tried to help the tenants understand the process and how it works. With students, for example—I would recommend this to anyone managing students—we usually sit down with them for 20–30 minutes and go over the lease with them, go over all the points in the lease, and set expectations upfront. We try to really limit the excuses for a tenant, like I didn't know that. What do you mean? We sat with you in person and went over that. That's one of the things. Some of the management items that I was talking about beat the properties up a little bit more so the repairs are higher and things always just mysteriously break. It was never their fault like something happens and nobody wants to admit it. I got a taste for managing other tenant groups. I realize how intense the students are and it's not a bad business to be in because, for people who own the rentals, the cash flows are higher, but with higher cash flows comes a set of their own problems. Jason: Aren't these things just common in property management in general? Like the advantage of you having a business like this is that you're almost educating these people through the process. That would work well for any new client because even if they've rented multiple places before, you have your way of doing things, they still may not want to follow things, have misinterpreted things, or they may claim they read the lease and understand it. All of these things sound like a really good baseline for how to onboard all of your renters. Pete: What I realized early on with the way I conduct business is we're not for everybody and that's because we believe in holding people accountable. One of the gentlemen who help me out hits me on the head. We're fair but firm. We're very fair. We don't try to nickel and dime people, but we're firm. The lease is the lease or the code is the code and this is what we have to do in order to ensure that the property is running smoothly, to ensure you're happy as a tenant, and to ensure the owner’s happy as a client. As a property manager, you're getting hit from both sides a lot of the time, but that's what I try to do to tenants. Honestly, we try to give as good of an effort as we can to make sure that they have a good experience because what's pretty cool about our business is the second-largest lead generator for us is tenant referrals which is awesome. That's free. That costs nothing. For that to be number two, it tells me we're doing something right, even though it feels like we're not sometimes and I want to continue that. Jason: So tenant referrals, meaning the tenants are referring the owners to your company? Pete: They're referring other tenants to our company. It makes the amount of advertising we have to spend on finding tenants less. Jason: Right. Do you feel like that's a challenge and student housing is finding people to rent the place? Pete: I must say it depends on the demographic. What's unique about Rutgers is it's split between two towns in New Jersey, New Brunswick, which has a population of 55,000 and Piscataway, which (I couldn't tell you) maybe it's 30,000 or 50,000. It's not a small town either, but it’s very old homes, especially in New Brunswick. What a lot of landlords in that area are realizing is people don't want to live in a dump anymore. They're willing to pay a little bit more. The house needs to be nicer. That's what we've done with stuff that we own. Most of the clients we have take a little bit of convincing, but after a while, they trust us to spend some money on their property because it makes it easier to rent. I went out to Rutgers, I majored in Criminal Justice. There's this thing called Broken Windows Theory and for people who don't know that it is, it's what it sounds like. When you have a dilapidated area with a bunch of broken windows, it attracts crime and attracts people looking to get into trouble. When you have that same place and it's all cleaned up, all the windows are fixed, the outsides painted, and the sidewalks are redone, the crime statistically usually has gone away. We took that same theory with housing. So if you have a dump, you're likely going to attract tenants who don't care about the place. They're just going to beat it up even more. If you have a nice place, you usually attract nice tenants, and even with the students being as management-intensive as they are, we've found that to be true. What's interesting is within the property management business—I did this right in the middle of the pandemic—I said screw it. I’m going to start another business. So we created what's called Tverdov Renovation Consultants. We basically do project management for our clients. We tell them, listen, we could help you rehab, bathrooms, kitchens, additions, roof siding, blah-blah-blah. We have a whole portfolio of the work we've done on Instagram. That's been good for the owners because it makes their property easier to rent. They get more rent and make our property worth more. We're happy because we've found a better tenant. The town's happy because we've improved the property and it's really a win and win across the board. It's just a matter of convincing other owners who are stuck in having lipstick on a pig or they don't want to spend a lot of money on properties and now we're at the point where I don't really want clients like that. I want clients who want to have a well-run property. Jason: Got it. Do you feel like tenants are an acquired taste in property management? My perception as other property managers avoid dealing with student housing, with those types of tenants. They feel like they're more difficult to manage unless they feel like in their market they need to. Do you feel like you would maybe in general convince these property managers in some way that there is a benefit or an upside to focusing on a tenant or better student housing? Pete: I think if you know it and you know the area, you could do very well and we have done very well. If you don't know it, it's pretty obvious to people who don't know it. You get beat up because you don't know what you're doing. The challenging part is every school is different across the country. When tenants begin to look when the lease is run and there are a plethora of questions to answer. If I was going to invest in another state, it's a whole different set of rules if you're going to try to be a student rental landlord in that state. For me, the riches are in the niches. Again, that's what I knew and I grew it. Now we're looking at expanding into more residential options. Still single family, two to four families, small apartment buildings. That's our bread and butter. That's all we want to do. We don't do commercial. We don't do HOAs or anything like that. That's what we focus on and that's what we're trying to grow. Jason: Now, the financial upside that I've heard from some people that get into this is some have convinced owners to take a property and to rent it out the room instead of renting out the entire property to a family. They're renting it out by the room in these sorts of situations and they're able to get a lot more rent at the property by doing such. That seems to be that there would be a potential financial upside, especially if your fee structure is based on percentages or each renter rather than being just connected to a flat fee per unit, for example. Pete: Maybe it's a little off-topic. We charge a percentage base and we'll always do that. I really don't know how property managers make money doing a flat fee. I think it's tough so we'll always be a percentage-based company. Renting by the room is, you're correct, that is the way to make more money. Again, I keep saying this phrase, but management-intensive, renting by the room is even tougher for students where we put groups together. We put a bunch together last year. We had a kid from Singapore, a kid from India, a kid from New Jersey, a kid from Pennsylvania and they don't know each other. When you're renting by the room, it's even worse because now you almost have four tenants, not one tenant, or six tenants, or however many people you're putting in a house. That creates its own set of problems. Again, this is based on jurisdiction. You cannot do individual leases because that would be considered a boarding house unless it's a licensed boarding house, you really shouldn't be doing that. We don't do that, so we had to rent by the room. We put them all on one lease. We say, listen, you're all legally responsible for damage in the common areas, and so on and so forth. It's challenging. What's funny, though, is I actually want to try to add a boarding house to manage because we get a lot of people just looking for a room. Just looking for a place to live, not just an apartment or a studio. We get a lot of inquiries like, hey, do you have a room? Jason: Is this boarding house law something that is common in just your state? I haven't heard from this, but it makes sense. Is this in other states as well? Pete: I'm just speaking about New Jersey. Jason: Interesting. It's something to those listening if they haven't dabbled in student housing or they're thinking of renting by the room or something like that, they probably should check with their local laws to make sure whether or not there's any sort of rules against doing such. In New Jersey, what does it take to become a boarding house then or to set one of those up? Is it on an individual property basis or is it a licensing sort of deal as a property manager? Pete: You need to have (they call it) a rooming house or a boarding house, but you need to have a license displayed in the property. I've been in enough of them. It's pretty obvious if it's a boarding house or rooming house because there'll be a kitchen with a bunch of labels on each cabinet. Like, this is John's cabinet, this is Max's cabinet, this is Pete's cabinet, and there's a common bathroom or two. Then all the other doors are just shut with locks on it. If you can imagine, that's what they look like and then they'll have a big license in the hallway or stairwell that'll say this is a New Jersey-licensed rooming house or boarding house. That's how they work. But again, those are challenging. Jason: Do you find in those situations you end up sort of having to play parent between roommates? Pete: Yes and no. We had to do it last year with a group of girls we put together. It was a little aggravating and a lot of girl drama. I stepped in and I spoke with them and tried to give them some words of wisdom. Most of the time, what we do with student rentals, I don't care how many kids are living in the house. It's one tenant and I explain to them you're all jointly responsible for rent and all the lease obligations. So it doesn't matter how many people are in the house. At the end of the day, you guys are all responsible. The other thing is we manage nearly 400 students. Some of these are very nice people, but we can't talk to 400 people. It's just not possible. What we do is we make a house manager or captain, or house mom, dad, whatever you want to call it and that's the person we speak with now regarding any tenant issues. We usually recommend somebody else in the house be responsible for submitting rent. So rent is submitted in one payment. Someone else is responsible for utilities. What it teaches these guys is responsibility, how to be accountable, and hold their roommates accountable. In theory, what's cool is we are actually teaching them how to be landlords because they have to make sure rent is collected. Something's broken, they have to find out who did this. Now, I have to tell Pete or for repairs to be made, coordinate with them to schedule it. That's why I said earlier, we're not for everybody because somebody who needs their hands held or mommy and daddy to wipe their mouth, we're not for you and that's okay. Our system usually winds up attracting tenants who are a bit more mature, a bit more independent and if they're not, they get there by the time that they're done with us. Jason: Right, I like it. You’re part of their educational process of the real world. That might be a good selling point for getting tenants. We'll make your kid actually grow up. I hope you're excited about that. I'm serious. I'd be like, I'm going to send my kids into one of those properties, right? Pete: I might try that. Jason: It's worth a shot. Pete, I think this is really interesting. I'd be interested in those that are doing student housing when you see this posted or see this inside the DoorGrow Club Facebook group at doorgrowclub.com. I'd be interested to see other people's comments on what you're doing, what's working, and what's not working in student housing. This started as a side hustle. It's evolved into a business doing it for other people. It's now growing. What do you feel like is next for you and your business moving forward? Pete: What I start to do from watching podcasts like this is to track our KPIs, which is really cool. I love that side of the business. It's like a quarterly visit if people think of it. It helps me to understand where we should be spending money, what's working, what's not, and tweaking things. Because we're in the growth stage right now, 100 doors is cool, but there are people who are 500, 800. Those are huge, huge companies. We won't get there overnight, I understand that. The goal of my business is we want to cover three counties in New Jersey. So we're based in Central New Jersey. If anybody from New Jersey is listening to this, Central New Jersey really doesn't exist. That's the inside joke. But the three counties we cover probably have about 2.6–3 million people in them. Those are within a 30-minute radius of our office, so we're very comfortable being within a 30-minute radius of home base. The goal is just to continue to add doors under management. Single-family, 2–4 families, small apartment buildings in those areas. There are certain towns that are rental towns and certain towns that are not. What we've been doing on the marketing side, we've been working on SEO, we have our own website, we blog, we're very active on Instagram, then we do mailers, which maybe not a lot of people do. We do some cold calling, too, and just constantly trying to tweak and figure out what's working, what's not, and how we could generate more leads. On top of the property management, because in New Jersey you have to have your real estate license. So right now, me and a few people, my team are realtors. Eventually, I would like to have my own brokerage. Really rural housing is three companies, so it's realty services—we can help you buy and sell investment properties; that's all we do—we could help you manage the property, or we could help you rehab the property. We have some clients where we help them buy the property, we help them rehab the property, and then we manage the property. Then, one day when they want to sell it, we'll sell the property. That's about creating multiple income streams for our business within the same business, which I think is pretty cool. Jason: Makes sense. Cool. Pete, it's been great having you on the show. I wish you success at Tverdov Housing and for those that are listening, if you have questions about student housing or getting this, or if people listening are interested in getting a place from you or whatever your goal is, how can they get a hold of you? Pete: My website is tvdhousing.com and also my Instagram, Tverdov Housing. You could look at the last name on the DoorGrow Show. It's Tverdov Housing. We're constantly posting what we're doing on Instagram, so it's usually properties we're rehabbing, or some crazy management story, about just some crazy stuff that's happened and probably will happen in the future, stuff that we're selling, so we're very active on there. Jason: Cool. All right. Pete, thanks for coming on the show. Pete: Pleasure being on. Jason: All right. Those of you that are interested in getting into student housing or that have been dealing with student housing, I'd be really curious, like I mentioned, to see your feedback inside the DoorGrow Club Facebook group so inside the DoorGrow Club. Let us know what you find is working or not working. It sounds like a challenging thing. I think any of us that have gone to college and remember some of the crazy stuff that either we did or that we saw other people doing, recognize that could be a really challenging thing, but it's necessary. Like their student housing is a need. It'll be interesting to see how things go moving forward with COVID-19 and Coronavirus, and things shifting to online. It will be interesting. Check out the Facebook group, doorgrowclub.com. If you are interested in growing your business and your property management company, making some changes there, if you are feeling stuck, struggling, whatever, reach out to DoorGrow. Check us out at doorgrow.com We'd love to help you out. Until next time. To our mutual growth, Bye everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you’ve learned and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

Today, we talk with Jason Yelowitz and his client, David Wolf. David could best be described as a “serial entrepreneur”. We discuss the sale of David's business and Jason's role therein. Tune in to hear our discussion about David's successful sale, knowing when it's the right time to sell, and business in the time of the CoronaVirus.   Episode Highlights The efficiency of the marketplace. Why cash is king. Incentives for having payroll employees. Why Dave decided to sell. Knowing when it's right to sell. Is selling at a loss the wrong move? If the pandemic has slowed down or changed deals. Is this a good market for first time buyers? How to keep your business stocked and afloat during the pandemic. Transcription Mark: All right this week we don't have Joe with us. We have Jason Yellowitz with us because Jason had one of his previous clients, Dave Wolf, on the podcast to talk about the sale of his business and some of the lessons and looking back on how that sale went. I always find these conversations interesting because after you sell a business, you have the chance to finally be somewhat introspective into what that process was like and maybe what you would do differently. Jason, I know you have Dave Wolf on who you work with for quite a while. You guys had I think two different LOIs that you had to work through in order to get to a closing. How did that conversation go? Jason: Yeah, it was really interesting to catch up with Dave. We got his business sold. I want to say it was around August of 2019, so it's been a while. He feels happy that it was sold. It was a very; at least to me it looked like a very good business. It had a general manager in place that was running the day to day. In his case, it really wasn't taking up his time but there's always that bit of mental focus that you can't let go of. And Dave has his fingers in so many different businesses that I think for him he needed to let up on the mental focus and then I think also he reallocated some of the capital. He really ends up buying a fair number of distressed kind of assets and for that kind of thing, you need cash in your pocket typically. Mark: Yeah, I know. Absolutely. I know you guys went through two different offers on this and I'm sure you'll get into that a little bit on the podcast. Did you guys discuss what happened with that first one that didn't go through? Jason: I don't know if you got that into it on the podcast, but it is an interesting sort of lesson for potential sellers. When we had first listed the business, we got multiple offers. And like most people, the seller gravitated towards the one that had the highest headline price. The challenge that sellers should remember is the market is pretty efficient. A lot of times if someone is bidding more than others, the reason they're doing it is because they're already aware that they are less likely to get the financing necessary to close the deal, and therefore they're willing to bid it up a little bit. Whereas someone that comes in in the middle of the pack might have a much higher chance of closing, but they know it and they're not going to pay up as much. So what it comes down to I think is don't get wooed simply by the headline number. You have to think of it holistically if you're a seller of what's most important to me; hitting a certain dollar amount or walking away versus a higher likelihood of closing. And there's not a right or wrong answer but the lesson is, don't deceive yourself into thinking you can have it all. There's usually some sort of tradeoff. Mark: Absolutely. Now the market is strikingly honest. It's always very, very honest, very direct, and you can't really fool it so I think that's a good lesson. Well, let's get into the episode and I can't wait to listen to this one. Jason: Hey everybody, this is Jason Yellowitz from Quiet Light Brokerage and for today's Quiet Light podcast, our special guest is David Wolfe. David is a serial entrepreneur. He's got his hands in all sorts of businesses. And it was probably about six months ago that I represented him in the sale of an online e-commerce business he had. Dave, welcome, how are you doing? Dave: Hey Jason, how are you doing? I'm pretty good. Jason: Good. So are you sitting there in some tropical location, I can see palm trees blowing in the background. Dave: I wish. I wish I was. Unfortunately, it's just a cool background trick for Zoom video because I'm sitting at my house quarantined like everybody else. Jason: Yeah, well, you mentioned quarantine. Obviously, we are in the heart of the COVID-19 coronavirus situation so if you don't mind, maybe you can just tell viewers just quickly what are the businesses that you're running and what impacts positive, negative, neutral have you seen from the coronavirus? Dave: Well there's definitely a lopsided negative for this; for what we're dealing with right now. I'm in several different industries. So we are in some direct to consumer automotive space online. I have recently, after the purchase that you represented for, I got into some brick and mortar stuff doing fencing installation and some manufacturing of fencing products; vinyl privacy fence. And then we're also in real estate lending and a few other places. And it's pretty drastic across all industries. From what I can tell the online businesses are faring just immensely better than just about anything else. So some of the brick and mortars, we're dealing with a; when I get off this call, I've got to deal with one of my managers needs to self-quarantine. So he's showing symptoms. He's not in a terrible situation. But now we're looking at we're already planning on going down to a minimal staff while this was blowing over. And so now we've got to see okay well, now it's zero because we can't have him at the shop at all. So these are just normal things. On the plus side, I think as most people I've talked to; as I'm sure you have a lot of different business owners in a lot of different industries just because of what I do. And because of the people that weren't in a good position, there is, unfortunately, going to be some business fatalities from this. I talked to a bankruptcy attorney the other day that was representing me in purchasing some assets and he was just the ground is already starting to rumble with the volume of business that's going to be occurring from that. And so I think there's going to be a lot of opportunities for people that; everything is going to work itself out but the reality is if you know how to run a business if you have sound principles in operating businesses, there is going to be a lot of opportunities. It's going to totally switch from a seller's market to a buyer's market. It was basically overnight I feel like. I think you would agree when you were working with me we had talked about it. For the most part, it's kind of a seller's market. There's a lot of capital out there. It's easy to get. And now we had; the institutional lenders aren't even lending on in our hard money lending business, which would be considered about us. We've dabbled and had conversations about that space. It's a very secure asset. Even they're holding off on buying more assets. So what that tells me is cash is king, right? So if you have money to buy a business and I would say you have the bandwidth and you can afford to wait, you don't need the cash flow right away, I think there's going to be some unbelievable opportunities in the next few months. Jason: Okay, that's a pretty interesting perspective. From our end what we've seen is the economic; obviously, there's the human and health toll. And I feel sorry; I've got a lot of empathy for your manager who is showing symptoms. On our end what we're seeing is the economic impact is really hitting different businesses differently. Some of them are way down. Others are way up. We've got a number of online businesses where their sales literally doubled versus the previous year in the past 12 months. What's not clear is whether it's a temporary blip or if there is long term enduring changes in customer behavior. For instance, I've got a client who sells a security device on the internet. His sales have doubled and his theory is more people are staying home and they want to feel safe at home. And without a crystal ball, that sounds as plausible to me as anything. So let me ask you this question. You mentioned that you believe there's going to be some golden opportunities for buyers, especially cash buyers. I think as of about an hour ago, I read a lot of headlines that Congress and the president were very close to passing a historic stimulus bill. And my understanding is that's inaudible[00:09:56.6] to fund a lot of money to the Small Business Administration. Do you think that that money will get to people that want to buy businesses or is it mostly going to be used to shore up existing businesses or do you have no opinion? Dave: Well, one of the things I think is going to happen. I think that you're going to see and I guess you can't quote me on this, but you're recording this so I guess you're going to. So normally and you think; I don't know if you've had this conversation, but typically the kind of par for the course for purchases of at least smaller businesses is an asset purchase agreement where you wipe out and start again. Well, there might be some people willing to take on some of the risks of a previous business if it means that by having the established business in place all of a sudden it makes it tremendously easier to be able to get capital from some of the pipelines that's going to be coming through. I mean, I think they're probably just going to be throwing; it's either they're going to be difficult to get because it gets bogged down in bureaucracy and that's going to be a disaster for the country or it's going to be they're just writing checks and throwing money at people that have a business and primarily a business with payroll employees. I guess that's one of the things that we've kind of; a lot of company shy away from that and try to stay lean and online. But there's going to be a lot more incentives for having a payroll more than likely. Jason: Yeah, that's what it sounds like. It sounds like most of the incidents are tied to maintaining a payroll. So maybe we can; let's go back in time six months, you had sold a business, what month did we close; was it October? Dave: August is when we closed; very end of August I think. Jason: What was going through your mind at the time? Why did you choose to sell and are you happy that you made the decision that you did? Dave: Yeah, well, so I definitely am very happy that I made the decision I did. I wish I would have just had all the money sitting at a bank account. But like an entrepreneur, we put a lot of it back to work afterwards. But, yeah I'm very happy that we sold. We would just kind of look at it as I wasn't focused 100% on that business and I knew that there was some opportunity in it but I needed somebody that looked at it the way that I did when I bought it five years before that could take it to how do I 3x this business and it was. It was a solid business. And I knew it was because you have had several side conversations with me where I was like do I really want to let this go? And in talking with them that business is one that's kind of about where it was, they haven't really been too badly negatively affected by the issues that we're dealing with right now even after a slowdown, which is good for them. But it allowed me to free up my time and focus on new things and kind of you had said like I was able to find plenty of things to focus on to grow. And I was reinvigorated by having that newness to it again where I was kind of tired. It wasn't that there's anything necessarily fundamentally wrong with that business it's just that I was seeing opportunities or make investments to grow it and it just didn't excite me. I wasn't doing it. I wasn't pushing like I was. And so a new owner came in and he has that same; it's new to him so he's making changes and making moves and improving the business and I think they're doing a good job. And I'm taking that renewed energy and I'm putting it toward something totally new and so I think that's a real win. So I'm definitely happy. I have no remorse for selling the business whatsoever. Jason: That's a really interesting point that you bring up, because at this point I've been brokering for 10 years and what I've acknowledged is a lot of times when I meet a seller, their first instinct is how do I get the absolute most money out of the business? And the obvious answer is grow it to its utmost potential and then that'll translate into cash flows and you'll get a multiple on those increased cash flows. The reality I find is usually when people want to sell it's not specifically for the cashout. The cash out most people consider that's the fair market value of what their business is worth today. So the decision comes down a lot more to personal things. Most of my sellers, there's a personal reason; marriage, divorce, buying a house, I have to move, I have to support my in-laws, anything like that. And then on the business front, it usually boils down to some version of what you just said, which is I know how to grow this business I just find that I knew how to grow it six months ago and I didn't. Clearly, I'm lacking the motivation and the sort of excitement that comes from new business ownership so maybe I'll hand it off to someone else who's got that level of motivation and excitement. So the way I think of it is each party takes the business to whatever is the highest level while counterbalancing all the other things going on in their life and how much attention they can put to one versus the other. What would you recommend to someone who wants to sell their business now? We are probably at a peak uncertainty. We don't know if the coronavirus is going to infect millions or hundreds of thousands in the US. We don't know if it's going to make another round around the globe. I mean, the truth is, we just don't know. What we do know with some confidence is the central bank and the US government is putting a lot of firepower into trying to keep the economy going. But we don't know what the facts are so what advice would you have for someone who they had their plan, they were going to sell this year in 2020; maybe in June, maybe in October, and then boom, coronavirus. Dave: Well, I mean first it has to be a scenario where you have a willing and able buyer. So if you don't have a buyer already then it's a totally different story. And it really depends on what your consequences are of not selling I would say. I mean I have a lot of assets that I have for sale in the market right now that aren't business-related. And this could totally be; I mean I don't know when you're going to publish this podcast; a week from now this might be irrelevant. But in this very particular instance while we are quarantined in the house and just I'll give you the; I'll let down my guard here so that you guys, you know, it's a this is just for inaudible[00:16:36.4] the house. Jason: They're not quite as nice as the beach. Dave: Yeah, right. I'll go back to the beach. I think that it's obviously not the best time to be in a transition flow for the assets. Now, that doesn't mean that it's a bad time to sell. It depends on what does not selling mean. I mean in some cases, even selling; I mean I'm going to go to the extreme, even if you had to sell at a 50% discount to what your business would be worth a month from now, if not selling is going to cause you even more financial damage because of the foreclosure on a large property or something like that, it may still be worthwhile. It's kind of the lesser of two evils to sell your business. Jason: You know what's interesting to me about your statement was you said a week from now this might all be irrelevant. It was about a week ago we had an all-hands meeting at Quiet Light to say what are we seeing in the market and I was taking the same point of view that you're taking today, which is the values are going to come down. It's going to be all distressed sales. Strangely, in the last week and a half, we have gotten reports of a number; I think we've closed four deals in the last week. None of them were significantly different to my understanding from what the letters of intent said. And as I mentioned in the beginning, we've seen some businesses that have really; their financials have really gone down. And for those sellers, I would say if that's where it is you need to decide for yourself are sales coming back or are they permanently down? If they're permanently down you need to get very real very quick with what the market will bear. If you think they're going to be back, your best bet is to wait until that happens. But then the other side of the coin which Dave this is really surprising, some of the businesses are going off the hook up and those are the ones where I think the sales are closing and the buyers at least it seems; I've gotten this mostly second hand, it seems to me the buyers are feeling that their golden opportunity is that with behavioral changes worldwide more is shifting possibly to online, possibly to certain sectors and they want to get in on that now so that they want to close. So it feels like the market is changing but not necessarily in the static way that many of us would have predicted. Dave: Yeah, I mean a good example is I think that this is going to accelerate the move from traditional brick and mortar businesses to online. People that have never done insta-corridor like Amazon Prime delivery and stuff like that are now ordering their groceries and they're using Zoom video to chat. I mean this accelerated technology, the adaptation or adoption two, three years easy. I mean the stuff that we're seeing, people that have never used that technology are figuring out how to do those kinds of things. They're ordering food, they're doing; so day to day habits that typically don't change that fast have completely changed. I just bought a set of gymnastic rings to work out at home because I usually go to the gym. I like to go to the gym but I can't go to the gym so I was like, all right, well, I'm going to buy something and my routine just totally changed. I might continue with that. I actually really liked that so I'm looking at doing some other upgrades that go along with that. Maybe like putting some bars up in my back yard and doing a couple of other things. So that's happening across the board and I think I'm starting to see some adaptation from businesses as well changing and pivoting. But I think that's pretty simple as if it's just I guess as a buyer or a seller you really have to categorize yourself in are you a person that buys off of past success or are you comfortable being a little more speculative and focusing on future potential speculation like you said in a sense that I had a letter of intent on a project and I saw the sales skyrocket and because of this I'm more than happy to close. It's obvious that the effect of this has already impacted that business in how it's more than likely going to in the short term so you're not really too concerned about that. And then again the same thing I would be very worried if I was in LOI and the business fell off a cliff in the short term or had to shut down entirely and you have to start with a terrible cash flow. And then how is that going to affect the annual cash flows on the back end of that? I think there's ways around that. I personally; I mean like you said, most of these LOIs fast purchase is 30 to 45 days. I don't necessarily think it's a bad time to be shopping for businesses if you don't have to spend all your time focusing on making sure that yours isn't on fire because if you go into LOI you have plenty of time to do the due diligence on before you have to close to make sure that you do, in fact, want to go through with it. Jason: Do you think this is a market for first-time buyers? Let me give you an example. Let's say we've got somebody in their mid-30s who has worked in corporate America for the last 12 years, risen up the ranks to middle management, is not excited about their day job but as of today, they still have it and they want the excitement of being an entrepreneur but they've never thought or run their own business. They've been part of a much bigger organization. Is this the time for them or do you think it's only the time for more experienced buyers with the larger risk appetite, a larger balance sheet, and a better ability to forecast or better confidence in their ability to forecast? Dave: I actually think it's a great time for a first-time buyer to come into the marketplace. I mean in contrary with the right outlook you have to be able to have a long term outlook and you have to have enough cash to be able to weather an uncertain future for at least a few months, if not a little bit more. Because the reality is that if you can get a good value like I think there's going to be opportunities for lower valuations out there which allows somebody to get into a business that couldn't otherwise get into. I mean people say like, oh, well, it's a bad time to buy a business because this stuff is happening but you could get the same business that potentially four months ago would have cost you 1.5 million. If they have cash flow issues and they have a bunch of other stuff, there might be one out there that is 750. It's really the same business. Maybe it needs $60,000 in cash infusion to survive what's going on or $50,000 in additional cash to survive what's going on for the current process but I think for most businesses, this is a temporary liquidity issue and not necessarily a fundamental the business is just completely destroyed. Jason: So going to your example, I mean, you just gave an example of a business where because of what's happening hopefully temporarily; obviously, none of us has a crystal ball. In your example, the business value dropped in half. It kind of seems to me that if you're going to buy in that environment, you have to kind of know yourself. How did I react in 2008 when I saw my 401k drop in half temporarily that kind of thing? It feels like it's more of a risk tolerance question as opposed to a more simple decision. You have to know yourself, how you react, how you're going to sleep at night. Would you agree with that? Dave: Oh yeah, definitely and that's there's so many caveats. I mean, you'd have to pick a much more specific type of business and I would imagine if I've never been an entrepreneur and I've had a regular middle management or upper management job and I'm just going into entrepreneurship this would be; it's going to take some cohunes to pull the trigger on something right now in this environment just because of how many unknowns we're going into as to if it is in quick recovery, what's the long term economic impacts from a potential but hopefully not recession and some of the other things or we could come out booming. I mean, there's going to be a lot of pent up demand for every service after this is done. Jason: I was thinking there's going to be a line around the block at your barbershop. Dave: That's funny, I actually did; I did okay do I get myself a haircut. Yes. Jason: No, it's nice. Dave: I'm going to show you the back. That's a little; but yeah, I actually talked to a salon owner today that I used to do marketing for and I was telling her; she was like what do I do? She's got a good business but I pay everybody and lose 25,000 and then pay my rent when we're closed. And so she's in a much better position. She's got plenty of money laying around and she had no debt. And we had a conversation and I said look, if I was you, you've got these lines of credit that aren't used, the bank may close those down soon because I have talked to several banks; smaller banks that are concerned about not necessarily lending on new businesses, but really more they're concerned about liquidity without this stuff coming down from the federal government where they can't do; I have a loan for a new primary residence I'm doing and the guy was on it's a portfolio loan, which if you guys don't know what that is, it means that the bank is going to hold the note versus handing it off to Fannie or Freddie Mac because my taxes are very difficult to do because I have seven or eight businesses and all these different things. And they said they're not doing any portfolio loans because they have 60 million dollars in commercial credit lines that have not been pulled down yet that if those were pulled, they have to have enough cash to be able to provide that liquidity to those commercial lines and so that's affecting them. Jason: That's pretty interesting. I was looking at online savings accounts yesterday and I was expecting that the interest that they pay savers would have dropped down to a couple of basis points. In fact, it was still up in the 1 ½ to 1.7 range. Dave: That's the reason why. The reason why is because they need depositors because they were concerned about whatever happens. A lot of commercial credit lines were closed in this type of environment because really the banks aren't afraid of everybody; every customer defaulting. What they're afraid of is every customer maxing out their line at once and taking all the liquidity from the bank. So that's one of those issues and so I personally had some large, large lines that I just pulled out all and put it in a checking account. And I'm happy to pay the interest on the short term so that I have access to capital, particularly because I do plan on; even though I'm pretty busy I do plan on being a buyer of business assets here in the next couple of months. I don't know what they're going to be. I just know that if you do have cash, if you were fortunate enough to have money sitting on the sidelines due to just serendipity or it just being the right time and place, there's just going to be some unbelievable opportunities. And I mean you can see them everywhere. I told my friend that was a salon manager; I said, look there's going to be a lot of salons that are closing down or people that just need cash and they pay their day to day bills with that money. Call them and see if you can buy all their color product that they have sitting in their salon that's not being used for like 10 cents on the dollar. Jason: That's a pretty interesting idea. One thing I've heard with those small local service businesses that have been put into a shock so hard is to reach out to their regular customers and ask if you'd be willing to prepay for the next haircut or the next meal. I think there's a lot of community spirit of none of us wants to see the small businesses in our town collapse so many of us who have the means are willing to prepay just as a sign of good faith. So as always, anytime I talk to you it's a fascinating conversation, as kind of that final piece I would love it if you could give a synopsis right now; let's see today is March 25th, so with the caveat that at today's speed of news cycle. Dave: 1:35 PM. Jason: Yeah, anything can change. So at 1:35 PM Eastern on March 25th, 2020 in the middle of the coronavirus I would love to get just your little quick snippet advice for buyers, advice for sellers, and final thoughts. Dave: Okay, so let's start with the advice. I would say, advice for buyers go ahead and go out and look; I would say go out and look as if nothing has happened. Remember that when you're putting LOIs out, you're doing your underwriting afterwards. So if you're looking at a business, you say I like this business in normal times let me go ahead and look at this and place the offer with a condition of you can stipulate obviously always you understand, hey, I'm kind of concerned about what's currently going on, but let's go ahead and get this going. So remember that doing an LOI doesn't mean that you can't do your due diligence and confirm the underlying fundamentals because this month's cash flow is probably more than likely either going to be significantly better or significantly worse than it was last March or last April. And I suggest you just got to have to understand that. It doesn't mean you got to close right away. As far as sellers are concerned that would be my number one piece of advice is to keep moving forward up to the point where you do have to make the commitments. You can still try to get the SBA financing, get all your ducks in a row, and then once you have everything in place, you can decide to make the final decision based on where things are at that time. Because by the time; like you said in 30 or 45 days we could be in a drastically different economy. But you might have started a deal when nobody else was bold enough to put out the LOI. You might have an exceptional value on a business that's right back to being extremely healthy. And as far as sellers are concerned, it's really just assessing. Maybe it's possible if you have to sell, you really need to determine what your best alternative to a non-agreement is. Are you willing to go back and run this business for a year inaudible[00:31:29.8] or mentally are you done? You don't necessarily have to tell the buyer that. But if mentally you're done and you have an offer that comes to the table that's lower than what you're expecting, you're really going to have to grapple with the decision of are you going to stick this out and do the work to make sure that this business is healthy again so that you can get your higher valuation or is it time to just accept a lower offer and realize that they're not gouging you? That it's just most of the buyers are buying off of the cash flows of that business and significant disruption in cash flow is a very reasonable thing to reduce the purchase price of a business. I mean, I saw that when I sold mine. I won't get in the numbers, but I had a higher number and then we had a small hiccup because we lost one contract and still very healthy business but it had a material impact on what our future cash flows for expected without having to make changes. And I totally understand that. In principle, we agreed to a multiple which just unfortunately for me it's a lower purchase price when you use the same multiple if you lose $5,000 in monthly cash flow. And so it happens but again, on the other side of that, being somebody that had a higher offer that then wasn't able to for whatever reason didn't go through; there's no fault of my own and then going to another offer that was lowered because of something had happened. I think we were dealing with the China tariffs and all that stuff during that time which looks like a child's play now with what we're dealing with. I resulted; I ultimately made the decision to still sell at a lower purchase price and looking at it now, I don't regret the decision. So if you're just looking for what; instead of me giving you empty advice as a seller all I can do is tell you that of what I did and what I decided to do. And now looking forward, I don't regret making the decision to accept an offer that was lower than what I originally wanted for the business. Jason: Are there any brokers and brokerage that you personally recommend? Dave: Anybody with Jason. Jason: Anybody but me, okay I got it. Dave: I'm very happy; I was very happy with Jason's advice. I think it was spot on and yeah he was just a very level head with a lot of experience on how to get a deal done. And really without railroading you, I think one of the really comforting things is Jason is going to be one of those guys that will tell you, look, if this doesn't feel right, just don't do the deal. You probably won't get to pry out his financing, but I can tell you that he does not need the check from your sale to survive. So he's my; yeah, I don't want to like let the cat out of the bag there but he's not going to push you into a sale specifically to get a commission check and that's something that is very nice to see in a broker. He does this because he likes it and because he's very good at it and likes the transactions of the business. And I was very, very happy with the work that I got done at Quiet Light. I can definitely see; from a DIY-er, I have no problems with the commission brokerage that I paid with Quiet Light at the end of the day. I think it was well earned and I would be happy to do it again Jason inaudible[00:34:48.8]. Jason: Wow, well that's ridic; I have to end it with an endorsement so I think with that I'm going to say thank you so much for your time and your thoughts, you're obviously a very experienced entrepreneur. You've bought, you've sold, you've built, you've experienced setbacks, and here you are with the beautiful fake background of a beach. It's phenomenal. So thank you for your time, everyone. This was Dave Wolf. He owns too many businesses to list. But obviously, he knows what he's stocked up. Thank you, Dave. Resources: Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com

TOPICS DISCUSSED Why initiations are not of primary importance Magic as a machine vs. dial-a-deity How do you know if you should work with a specific deity How Hekate came to Jason Do you need to work deities to do effective magic? Why there is a vow of secrecy in the course Learn more about Jason Miller https://www.strategicsorcery.net/ Get in touch with Chaweon: https://www.instagram.com/hichaweon/ https://twitter.com/hichaweon https://www.facebook.com/witchesandwine/ Hey babe, hear the full-length "Director's Cut" of interviews (and other bonus content). Support Witches & Wine on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/witchesandwine This podcast audio is from this Witches & Wine video: https://youtu.be/UwT4rryYYEc --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

What is cost segregation, and how does it work? If you're knowledgeable of the tax code and understand what you’re able to do, you will put money in your pocket.  Today, I am talking to Kim Lochridge, Executive Vice-President at Engineered Tax Services. The company started with about six employees and has grown to 130 to do 150-200 cost segregation studies a month. Kim loves talking about taxes. She’s here to help make sense of it all!  You’ll Learn... [03:10] Investment Depreciation Concept: What you get when you have an investment property. It's a tax deduction. [05:15] Depreciation is everything and anything, including buildings, carpet, walls, paint, countertops, and cabinets that depreciate over 27.5 years (unrealistic). [07:17] Cost Segregation Metamorphosis: IRS allows building professional/engineer that understands property and tax laws to segment each component of a building.  [10:30] Does Kim use cost segregation? No matter how big or small, she doesn’t do a deal without cost seg. [11:53] Cost Segregation Studies: How long are you going to own the property? What are you going to be doing with the property?  [12:03] Justify Numbers: Don’t do a cost seg study unless it makes sense financially to pay less in taxes for more money to reinvest. [15:10] Audit Defense: Engineered Tax Services covers questions from IRS about cost seg performed by internal engineers. [16:00] Tax Strategy: Know how to use it and when to use it. Too many people don't understand taxes and let their professionals handle it.  [16:21] Motto: We do believe that everyone should pay tax, but there's nothing in the code that says you have to leave a tip. [16:55] When and when not to do cost seg? Ask questions. If something doesn't make sense, make it make sense.  [21:35] Bonus Depreciation: Too good to be true? Or, leaving money on the table by not doing cost seg? Probaby 80-90% of real estate agents are missing out.  [29:30] Depreciating Bonus Depreciation: Do it now before it decreases from 100% to 20% in 2026. Tweetables Engineered Tax Services’s Motto: Everyone should pay tax, but there's nothing in the code that says you have to leave a tip. Depreciation: What you get when you have an investment property. It's a tax deduction. Don't do a deal without cost seg. It doesn't matter how big or how small. Bonus Depreciation: It’s a big deal, not a scam, to spark the economy.  Resources Kim Lochridge’s Email Engineered Tax Services Schedule E W-2 Form 1099 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA) Opportunity Zones DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowLive DoorGrow Website Score Quiz DoorGrow Cold Leads Calculator Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change the perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. My guest today is Kim Lochridge. Kim, welcome to the show. Kim: Thank you, Jason. Thanks for having me. Jason: Kim is here with Engineered Tax Services. We're going to be chatting a little bit today about cost segregation and how it works. Those of you that don't really geek out on accounting, that's okay because I pay people to help me with that stuff. I don't either, so I'm going to ask all the questions. We're going to figure this out and make sure it'll all make sense. Kim, give us a little bit of background on you, and how you got started with Engineered Tax Services. Kim: Thank you for the internal question. I've been with Engineered Tax Services. I'm the Executive Vice-President, and I've been with them for about 10 years. I started out as an associate. I was on the board of a manufacturing company, and they were looking into some energy-efficient tax credits. It was just a brand new program that came out and tax rules. I found this company because they were doing that early on. That was really my beginning and how I met them. I just thought I came on board.  We've been growing the company since we started about five or six employees. Now we have about 130 across the country. We're doing about 150-200 studies a month across the country. It's pretty impressive. Jason: All right. We will get into what those studies are in just a minute. Let's get into the subject at hand. Maybe we start in the preshow, in the Green Room, we were chatting for just a little bit. It was like, "When is this stuff?" "Maybe I should explain it a little bit to you, Jason." You did which is very gracious of you. Why don't we start with the concept of depreciation on an investment? Just to make sure those that are not yet investors, or they're just new in the space, and they're starting to deal with real estate investors, understand this concept. Kim: Okay. Depreciation is something that you get when you have an investment property. It's a tax deduction, essentially. On top of the mortgage interest or any of that expenditures that you spend on that property, you also get depreciation.  Depreciation is calculated depending on the type of property that you have. If it's a single family home or some type of residence like a multifamily and then in capacity, you're required to depreciate that property over 27½ years. If it's any other type of property like an office, retail, or anything commercial, that is 39 years. For today, I think almost everybody in the audience is more of a single family-owned, we’ll target more at 27½. Just know that that's interchangeable with 39 if it's commercial. Essentially, if you have (say) a $300,000 single family home, you're going to be able to depreciate according to the IRS. You're going to divide that by 27½ and you end up getting $10,909 every year, that you can help use that to offset the income that you made on that property and then not pay tax on it. Sometimes, if it's a smaller home, that might cover it, that and any expenses, and you won't have to pay any tax on the income (which is nice). But sometimes, if your cash flow's pretty good, once you're high right now, mortgage rates are low, you might've owned it for a while, then this could be something that could help you. If you have that, your income is more than the depreciation, then you're going to want to make sure to do something else. This is where cost segregation comes in. Also, if you end up having multiple properties, and one is cash flowing much more than another, then you can basically take that cash flow, and you can do from one to another if it's in the excess. We'll go over some of those details a little bit more. Essentially, the depreciation is just that. You have depreciation. You're required to depreciate a building if it's on a Schedule E or if it's a rental income. If it’s a second home, you're not going to depreciate it. It has to be a Schedule E or some sort of an income revenue-generating project. Jason: The idea with depreciation is that everything in the property is going to depreciate at the same way? Kim: Yeah, everything. It contains the whole building, whatever you bought. That means carpet, walls, paint, countertops, cabinets, anything that you bought in that purchase is going to be depreciated over 27½ years. Jason: [...] lasts about 27½ years, right? Kim: That's what the IRS says.  Jason: Okay, that's not reality. How do we solve this problem there? Kim: Yeah, it's not reality. For decades since the 40s, cost segregation as a whole, what we're going to talk about today, has been around since the 40s when it began in court cases. That's because property owners went and argued the fact that, "This is what I'm doing. This isn't really fair because assets that I'm depreciating over 27½ years or 39 years are not going to last that long. I'm replacing them, in some cases, multiple times over the course of ownership. I want different rules. I want to be able to depreciate those separately." It made it very difficult for a CPA to say how much is the carpet or how much is the building when you just bought up a building. You didn't put it in. You don't have receipts. You don't know how much the roof, the HVAC, the water heater and all that were. They can't break it down. The CPA doesn't have the ability to do that. The IRS came back and over years of morphing cost segregation, they said, "We're going to give you the ability to do cost segregation, which means you have to have a building professional or an engineer, somebody who understands property and tax laws to come into the building, and segment (hence, the segregation) out each of the component of your building." As a result of segmenting those out, you can depreciate them in different time zones, or different buckets. For instance—these are just some examples, depending on the purpose on some of those components—carpeting is always going to land in a five-year bucket. You're going to be able to depreciate all of your carpet in five years, not 27½.  Things like all of your landscaping, your driveways, curbing, gutter, landscape bushes, trees, all of Rockwell expenses, all of that stuff, gets to be depreciated over 15 years. That's more realistic. Things are going to be overgrown. You're going to have to rip things out. You're going to have to replace fences, all those types of things. They'll give you that bucket as well.  The law also says that you can break down certain components like mechanical, electrical, and plumbing, as long as it's for specific purpose for the building, and not necessarily for the building itself. It has to be for the business.  It gets pretty complicated and these rules have morphed since the 40s. There have been massive amounts of court cases that give us these rules today. As an example, something traditional out of today, if you have that same $300,000 single family home, percentage-wise, we're going to be able to take (conservatively) about 40% of the cost of that building or $120,000, and we're going to be able to shift that into faster class lives for you. You won't have to depreciate all of it over 27½ years, but we can break it out.  Essentially with that, that would be $180,000 gets depreciated over 27½ years, and about $120,000 gets split up between five and 15 years. Those are the good rules of thumb numbers to use. Following so far? Jason: I'm with you. Kim: I have to tell you, I love tax. I know it's really geeky, but it's okay. I can help you through it. Jason: That's why people hire you. You're weird. Kim: I get excited about it. Just to kind of give you an idea, I'm also a real estate investor myself. I have my day job, but I'm also an investor. I have invested in about 800 doors in multifamily in Texas. We have cannabis warehouses, we have a mobile home park, just my husband and I. We manage them all ourselves (which is pretty incredible) plus a full-time job. Jason: Do you use this? Do you use cost segregation? Kim: Of course. I don't do a deal without cost seg. It doesn't matter how big or how small. Jason: That's the cool phrase for it, it's cost seg. Kim: Yes, short for cost segregation. Jason: Guys, get yourselves some cost seg. Pretty dope. Explain how your company helps with this. Obviously, accountants can do these. The property manager isn't doing this. The investor doesn't know when they will buy this property. How do we solve this problem? Kim: Engineered Tax Services, this is our specialty. This is one of the main service lines that we offer as cost segregation. This is where I was saying that we do about 150-200 studies per month across the country, whether it's a single family residence all the way up to something like the AI Building in Chicago—big, high-rise, office buildings. We do cost segregations. We're very good at it. It's cost effective. Most CPAs, if it's not over $2,000,000 then it's going to be too expensive. We have single family home rates. We have different levels of studies that we can do according to how long you are going to own the property, what you are going to be doing with the property and those types of things. Maybe we should go in and talk about some numbers, Jason, just to tell everybody (the listeners and the viewers) what it would mean for them. Jason: Yeah. I don't know if this is where you're headed but if you're saying that a lot of people say, "Oh, that's for the big properties. That's too expensive to do for my clients on this single family home or my investment property." Help them justify the cost of doing this study. Nobody would ever do it with you ever unless it made sense financially. Kim: I haven't since a project that isn't at minimum like a 50-to-1 return. It's going to be better than any improvement you can do in the house, any tenant change over, addition, or whatever you're going to do, your returns on this are going to be [...]. Jason: By doing this, by getting the cost seg study, working with you guys, and with their accountant to make this all happen, what has this allowed the investor then to do that they wouldn't have been able to do otherwise? Kim: They're going to be able to depreciate more in the first years rather than just the $10,900 on the $300,000 property that we talked about.  Jason: Which means they're just reducing their tax liability? Paying less taxes? Which maybe means they have more money to reinvest? Kim: Exactly. I want to preface this with the fact that there's a lot of investors that this is passive income for them. If you don't know whether your income from your investment property is passive or active, you want to talk to your CPA because sometimes this gets locked up. We're only talking about if you're a non-real estate professional, how to offset the income from the property so you're not going to have to pay tax on that. This isn't a loophole. This is nothing that is illegal. This has been around for decades. This isn't something that I’m going to get in trouble if I do this. This is simply just a different method of accounting and it requires a professional to come in. Just like an inspector or an appraiser would come in to tell you more specific about a building that you're building. This is basically more of a professional coming in to explain more of the accounting side of it. Jason: Okay. What do you call these experts that come out to the property to do a cost seg? Kim: They're engineers. Jason: Engineers? Kim: Yeah. Engineers come out. They're either structural professionals or mechanical engineers that understand building mechanics. They understand how to break down different components in the building. They're our own employees across the country. They come out to do those studies to document everything.  Just keep in mind that the IRS says that if you have the building professional onsite, then that is required by the IRS. A CPA can do some sort of cost seg if they're knowledgeable about it, but many of them aren't going to be able to tell you how much the [...] costs. If they do, they're just going to do it from a square foot allocation. It's not going to be able to stand up in the event of an audit.  We offer audit defense, so if the IRS does come back and question this, we're going to cover all of that for you. We're going to defend that for you. Our reports are going to be solid. We're going to be here and that's what this covers. We're going to stay behind the product. Jason: Okay. What else should people know about cost segregation or about your company that they may ask? Kim: I think we need to talk about tax strategy because I think this is really important for people to understand. So many people (and I think in my opinion, too many people) don't understand taxes, and they let their professional handle it. That’s exactly what you said in the very beginning, Jason. Jason: Yeah, that's what I do. Kim: Yeah. We have a motto at Engineered Tax Services. The motto is we do believe that everyone should pay tax, but there's nothing in the code that says you have to leave a tip. Jason: I love it. Kim: If you're knowledgeable of that tax code and you understand what you are able to do, you will literally put money in your pocket. That's what this strategy does. That's what these studies do for you. You have to know how to use it and when to use it. That's what I can help with. We help with realizing when is the good time to do cost seg and when it may not be a good time. When it would not be a good time to do a cost seg study is if you just flip. You're going to buy and you're going to renovate it. You're going to get rid of it. You will probably not want to accelerate depreciation. It's just not smart because you're essentially taking more depreciation upfront because you're going to hold on to those assets like the carpet, and you’re depreciating it over five years. You're not going to get all that money and keep it if you sell the building. Jason: Right. You don't want to pay for the future owner of the place’s carpet. Kim: Right. Unless you're doing substantial rehab—that's a different story—and if you're actually going to depreciate the property on a flip, you usually don't depreciate it because you're never placing it in service, if that makes sense. You're never really putting in service because it's all going to be under renovation. You're not going to depreciate it. This does not include flippers, but it does include people who are renting their property. If you have this passive income, let's just take our $300,000 example from the beginning, you're giving the $10,900 in the depreciation every year. If your cash flow is bigger than that, more than that, and you're still paying some tax on that income, you might have to figure that out because you might have a job in your W-2, and you're not really sure what part of this is what you owed in tax because of the house and the income, and what's on your W2.  It's really important for you to see where this is coming from. "How much of my paying tax is from my rental property?" Ask those questions to your CPA, or we can work with you on that. We're looking at tax returns and can help you there. That's the first thing. Just ask some questions. If it doesn't make sense, let's make it make sense. Let's make sure that the common sense is there. At least, you trigger certain things in the brain. When you get into that and you start realizing that you are paying tax on the income, that $10,000 isn't enough, then you're going to want to do some sort of cost segregation, so you can accelerate the depreciation faster especially if you're going to do renovations. Many times we buy property, and then we're doing renovations, either immediately or very soon after or even just repairs and maintenance, and we have to capitalize that in many cases. Now, you're actually depreciating two assets. Let's say you bought a building that had a roof, then the roof gets replaced in five years, now you can't write off the roof. You have to capitalize it which means you have to depreciate it. You don't just get an expense for the cost of the roof. You have to capitalize it and depreciate it. Now you have two roofs. You're depreciating one in the purchase and you're depreciating one you just bought. That's where we really want to come back from that and say, "I don't want to depreciate two roofs. When I sell this property, I'm going to get killed in the accumulated depreciation on both of those assets. I only have one in the building. Why am I depreciating two?" If you do a cost seg study on the original purchase, then you replace the roof, not only do you have to capitalize the new roof, but you can write off the remaining depreciation of the old roof. Traditionally, CPAs can't do that because they don't know how to value the roof if you don't have a cost segregation study.  Not only are we going to help you with your depreciation, but you're now going to have a very detailed fixed asset report that's going to outline every single aspect, every component of that building, and it's going to have a number attached to it. Every light switch plate cover on the wall, every baseboard, every layer of the roof, HVACs, and hot water heater. Now, you have this really great report that every time you do any improvement, it has to be capitalized. You're going to write off the remaining depreciation of the old.  Let's think about this for a minute. Let's say you buy a property. You have it for three years and the hot water heater goes out. It's a significant dollar amount, you have to replace it. You can now take that hot water heater if it's not expensable. You capitalize it and write off the old hot water heater. If you have it in a straight-line depreciation, that water is being depreciated over 27½ years. That means you're going to have 24½ years left of depreciation on the old one. Now, you're depreciating two of them. Why not get that money right now and help cover the cost of the new water heater? That's the beauty of cost segregation. Jason: Nice. You mentioned real estate agents. Are they not allowed to do cost segregation on their properties if they're an agent? Kim: No. It actually gets better for them. If you're a real estate professional, this is a whole different conversation. Jason: A lot of our listeners, they're property management business owners, but they're also brokers, real estate agents, and are licensed, most of them. Kim: Yeah. That's where we really want to get into. This is part of the tax strategy that I was talking about. If you are a real estate professional in any capacity, whether you're self-proclaimed real estate professional and you're managing your own property, or if you're actually a real estate professional, an agent, or a manager. If you are paying tax, if you are a W-2 employee or if it's a 1099, if you're paying tax, and you're a real estate professional, you have had some misinformation. This industry right now, we have a real estate president, like him or hate him, it doesn't matter. He's a real estate president. He walked in and just literally handed the real estate industry a gift with a big red bow. It's called bonus depreciation. Remember what when we said the $300,000, you'd have over 27½ years. You'd have $10,900. Then if we did a cost segregation, we would be able to accelerate the depreciation. That would be a lot better, actually. Now, with the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2018, President Trump passed the bill for bonus depreciation. Let me go back a little bit in history. Bonus depreciation has been around since 2006. It was 50% bonus depreciation (and I'll cover what that 50% of what in a minute) on new construction or renovations. You're essentially able to really expense a lot of stuff to a certain point—at least half of it—for a long time from 2006 until through 2017.  In 2018, President Trump passed this Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. Not only increasing the bonus depreciation to 100% from 50%, they also expanded it to allow purchases not just new construction. What this means is that, say you're a real estate professional. Let's say you're making $200,000 a year. Maybe it's tons more, but let's just call it that. Let's say you're making $200,000 a year, and at that level you're probably paying 33% tax rate or something like that. Maybe a little bit less. Let's call it 35% just to be generous. Each year you're paying about $70,000 in income taxes. If you are a real estate professional and you go buy a property, let's just say you go buy this $300,000 house, and you're going to start renting it out. We have the cash flow, we have the income from that which is also a factor, but let's just talk about the tax for a minute. When and if you do buy a $300,000 property and you're a real estate professional, then you do a cost seg study on that building. Essentially, we're going to be able to write off about 40% of it. That's $120,000. Normally, if you're not a real estate professional, that's locked up in your passive income and it cannot offset your W-2 wages. It has to just stick with the income from the property or other properties that you owned.  If it goes in your Schedule E, if you own 10 properties, then that $120,000 will house all the other properties. But it is still stuck on the passive side because it's passive income. When you're a real estate professional, it's an active income. This is active depreciation, which also covers all of your regular W-2 or 1099 income when you're in the real estate industry. Remember when I said that the $120,000 will be shifted over five or 15 years. We have to prorate that all out over these buckets. What's really cool about bonus depreciation, that means 100%, not 50% anymore on purchases, but 100% of your purchase price that is allocated to a class life less than 20 years. You heard me talk about the 5-year buckets and the 15-year buckets. Anything in a cost seg study that you reclassify that's less than 20 years which would be about 40% of this building, you're going to take as a writeoff in year one. Now you get this $120,000 in the year that you purchase it. You can go buy a property on December 31st and it closes before the end of the year. You can offset your taxes by the amount of your results of cost seg study. In this case, $120,000 that you get to offset, all of your $200,000. You've made $200,000, you're going to depreciate $120,000. Now you're only paying tax on $80,000. But if you buy two houses, you basically just wrote it off, and you can pocket that $70,000 that you would've paid in taxes. Let's just run the numbers real quick. If you have $300,000 and you're saying you're going to put 30% down, that's $90,000. Let's just say the $120,000 times the tax rate of 33%, so $40,000. Basically, what the $120,000 would equate to is about $40,000 in cash. Instead of coming up with your down payment of 30%, if you have to come up with 30%, you've got to come up with the $90,000 down payment to buy that $300,000 house. But you're going to get $40,000 back in your pocket. Immediately. As soon you file your tax return. You get to write that off. Buy two properties and you just write off your entire tax liability for the year. Jason: Okay. This sounds almost too good to be true. Help me understand. How many agents do you think are doing this type of stuff, that they're not doing cost seg, and they're just leaving tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table. Kim: Probaby 80%-90%. Jason: This is a pretty big problem. Kim: That’s why I’m on the show because I want to raise awareness. I will tell you personally, I'm an executive, my husband's an executive, we have high incomes, and when they came out with this bill, the first thing that I told my husband was, "We have to go and buy some properties." I am a real estate professional by trade because of what I do anyway, so I'm a professional. We are under contract to buy a mobile home park. We're closing on December 31st. We have good income and I bought it, but I actually am going to have about $400,000-$500,000 write-off this year for my taxes. Jason: Nice. Is there anything else that people need to know about this? That was a really good point. Any other major things that we should be aware of? Kim: Yeah. Bonus depreciation goes through 2026.  Jason: Okay, then what happens? Kim: Then it starts to phase out starting in 2023. It goes from 100% to 80%. Then 2024, it goes down to 60%. Then 2025, it goes to 40%. Then in 2026, there's only a 20% bonus depreciation. It doesn't mean cost seg is not beneficial. It's still beneficial to do that just like it would've been without bonus depreciation, but there's a greater incentive to do it now. This is all brand new tax rules that just came out in 2018. If you're saying to yourself, "Hey, why haven't I heard of this? This has got to be a scam." It's not. This is a big deal. It's huge for President Trump [...]. Jason: It's a big deal. Was this done to basically spark the economy? Is that why they're throwing this out there? Such a big [...], so to speak, then they're depreciating their bonus depreciation over time? They're going to be taking it down, but is that the mindset of why was it put out there? Kim: Yeah. I'm in the tax community for the real estate roundtable in Washington, DC. When the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act was being formulated, we had long discussions about how to deal with depreciation and what to do. Everyone was worried about the real estate being in the 7th or 8th inning as far as the cycle goes. “Hey, we’re a little bit worried about this. How can I continue to be sustainable at this rate?” The big talk of this Tax Cuts and Jobs Act on President Trump's docket was solely to raise the GDP and just really get the economy going a little bit better. What they did to incentivize that is to offer this bonus depreciation. This was part of that incentive to buy property, exchange property. They also, in this package, were part of the opportunity zone, which I know a lot about. If you don't know about that, we can do a whole another show on that, about purchasing property in an opportunity zone, and having essentially no tax liability on that after you held it for 10 years (as long as you do some improvements). That's a whole another show that we can do. All of these are part of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. It's very powerful, and in my opinion, I think we probably, at that time, went from a 7th or 8th inning in real estate back down to a 5th or 6th inning. That's where it really continued to boost and postpone any kind of real estate downturn.  Jason: Who is aware of this and is capitalizing on this? Obviously, your company and your clients. Who's been taking advantage of this? Kim: We do a really good job educating CPAs across the country. We try. There are a lot of CPAs out there. We cannot touch them all. We've got 120 people and there's literally hundreds and thousands of CPAs. We do the best we can. We love CPAs. We want to educate them. We want to connect with them. If you are not doing this and you want to do this, it would be great for us to work together. I really want to talk to your CPA because he has more of use out there that I want to make sure he’s or she's aware and give him or her resources to be able to let other people know that we do this. We do this very economically. I work with a lot of property management companies, investors, and funds. I work with a lot of family offices. I work with a lot of individuals. The word is now starting to get out there. There's a lot more individuals that are starting. We do a lot of shows like this to bring what really the wealthy has done for a long time down into mainstream. That's really what we've been doing. Jason: Random seg question, if property managers came to you, and they've got lots of investors, is there some sort of service that they could work with on you that they can add as a new revenue stream to push their investors towards you? Kim: Yeah. Absolutely have them call us. We can do some sort of [...] share or something like that, or just the finder's fee or something like that. Property managers, historically, have been difficult. Property managers do the property management. They usually don't get involved in the taxes. It's hard for them to have those discussions because a lot of times with the owners they'll say, "Hey, you should really do cost seg," they're going to go, "Oh, it's taxes. My CPA handles that." Now you're dealing with two different layers. Just like you said in the beginning, "If it has anything to do with taxes, I'll let my CPA do it." Those people have that mentality like, "Oh. I'm sure my CPA's already doing this if it's that big." I'm telling you, please listen to me, most CPAs are not doing this. I'm telling you that right now. Most of them aren't. Be proactive. Take your own taxes and your knowledge into your own hands and ask the appropriate question.  I will leave you with a kind of case study of a project I've been working on right now. This is incredible. I literally have a client that I was referred to from a CPA. The CPA brought me the client—a very good CPA client of mine. He owns tons of property all over the country. His family owns property and I've done all their cost seg for about five or six years. We finished the project. I was in my closing call with them, explaining those studies in the last report and everything. He says to me, "I'm part owner in this mobile home park. I think we should probably do this. Do you think it will be worth it?" I said, "Absolutely. Mobile home parks are killer. They're amazing." They do way better than single family homes or multifamily with that matter.  They said, "Yes. It's absolutely worth it. Get me the depreciation schedule, and we'll go over it." He put his partner on the phone with me, and we talked about it. Then, they finally sent me the depreciation schedule. The mobile home park was put on their depreciation schedule as land, $3.5 million as land. I looked at that and I almost gasped, that I called, and I was like, "That's not good. You're not depreciating this at all. Land is not depreciable. It looks like you just bought a raw piece of land." He goes, "Well, that's just all there is. We don't own any of the parks." I go, "Yeah. But you own the pads, the electrical post, you own a laundry facility and there's a house there, there's fencing and there are all kinds of stuff. They are land improvements. That's all 15 year depreciation. You have to pull out the land first then depreciate what's left." He goes, "Oh, man." Long story short, we get on the phone with the CPA. They're like, "Why didn’t you depreciate this? Why is it all on land?" He's like, "Oh, well. I didn't know." The CPAs don't know this stuff. Make sure that you're asking questions. If you have even just the inkling, reach out to me. I try to be very responsive to my emails, text messages, and whatnot. Email me. It's klochridge@engineeredtaxservices.com. Shoot me an email. Give me some synopsis on what's going on. Send me your depreciation schedule and I'll be able to tell you real quick if we can do something or not.  Most CPAs are not doing this because we don't have the resources. They don't even know. How was a CPA to know how much the electrical post we're going to depreciate? How was he supposed to know how much the pads are? They don't. You have to have a professional to go out there. Appraisers can't do it because they're going to tell you what's in there and what's the total value is. They're not going to break it down. Inspectors are going to tell you what's wrong. Nobody's going to tell you what the cost of every component is in that building. That's where the power comes. Jason: Awesome. This is really interesting to me. I appreciate you coming on the show, Kim. You gave out your email address, which we will have in the show notes as well, and on the website. How else can they get in touch with your company? Kim: Our website is engineeredtaxservices.com. I'm also on the back page with our team. Just pick my profile and shoot me an email from there as well. I'm happy to help you. I have an assistant that can handle all the influx of emails that might come. We'll be able to work through them all. I'd love to hear it from you and please just reach out, so we can at least talk about tax. Jason: Perfect. Kim, thanks for coming out and hanging out with me here on the DoorGrow Show. Kim: Anytime. Jason: All right. We'll let you go. Bye. Kim: Okay. I’ll talk to you soon. Bye, Jason. Jason: All right. There you have it. Really interesting topic. I didn't know about that. It's really fascinating. I'm sure it might be new to a lot of you. If that was helpful, make sure to reach out to them. If you are watching this on YouTube, make sure to subscribe, and catch these videos as they come out. If you are paying attention to us on iTunes and listening, make sure to subscribe on iTunes. If you can give us a little review, like this video, whatever you can do to help us about, it means a lot.  We're putting out a lot of free content. We would love it if you would reciprocate just a little bit and help us out. It helps us get the message out. It helps us get greater awareness and help more property managers change this industry. I'm Jason Hull of DoorGrow. This is right towards the end of the year. This may come out in 2020 on iTunes and other places. To everybody, happy holidays. I hope you have a fantastic 2020. If you're looking to grow your business, you're wanting a vision for 2020, you want 20/20 vision, you have a plan, and you want to do something different, reach out to DoorGrow. I'll say this real quick, if you didn’t get the results you wanted in 2019 or the result you wanted in 2018 or in 2017, you know exactly where you're going to be at the end of 2020. You're going to be at the same level of results you had every year so far. That's your default future. If you want to have a creative future that's dramatically different, then I would love and be honored to help you create that. We've helped hundreds of companies do that. Those that listened to me, followed, do what I tell them to do, and show up to our coaching calls, they get those results. They get it. I would love that to be you. That's it. Bye, everyone. Until next time, to our mutual growth. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

To celebrate the 100th episode of the DoorGrowShow, I’m doing something a bit different. Instead of me interviewing someone, I’m the one being asked the questions.  Today, I am featuring my appearance as a guest on the Cashflow Diary (CFD) podcast hosted by J. Massey. We discuss my journey into property management and how to optimize a business through organic growth to achieve success. You’ll Learn... [05:00] Today’s entrepreneurs are like yesterday’s superheroes. They save lives. [06:01] Who is Jason Hull? Someone who has never managed a property, but helps others grow and scale their property management business. [06:48] Being an entrepreneur is in his DNA: Grew up with an entrepreneurial mother, who taught him to make more money and beat the competition. [08:16] Failed Marriage and “Disney” Dad: Jason needed a job that offered freedom and autonomy to spend time with his kids and create clients. [10:13] Website Design, Marketing,and Branding: How to win when competing with Goliaths and make it to the top of Google. [11:53] Financial Decisions: Entrepreneurs like to make money, not lose it. [15:25] Conventional to Comfortable Confidence: Do what works for you, not others, to lower pressure noise.  [20:15] Curiosity: See what others don’t and causes businesses to lose leads and deals. [21:55] Still struggling with imposter syndrome? Hire a business coach who believes in you to rebuild confidence and effective communication to make a difference. [28:55] Why choose property management and deal with tenants, toilets, and termites? [32:53] Why choose Jason and DoorGrow? He helps create positive awareness and address negative perception surrounding property management. [40:00] Cold vs. Warm Leads: Prospecting pipeline plugs leaks to grow business and get people to know, like, and trust you. [44:56] How do good property owners find good property managers? Avoid sandtraps of solopreneurs with few doors; add doors to build a property portfolio. [49:10] Short-term Rental Success: Get a property manager to solve revenue issues. [52:32] Precipice of Decision: Believe in yourself, make it happen, and decide to be different by listening to your truest voice.  Tweetables Today’s entrepreneurs and yesterday’s superheroes save lives and make the world a better place. Entrepreneurism: Insatiable desire to learn and explore opportunities. Entrepreneurs: Allow yourself to do what you need to do to lower the pressure noise. Entrepreneurs create positive, uncomfortable change wherever they go. Resources CFD 542 – Jason Hull On How Property Management Can Change The World Jason Hull on Facebook Steve Jobs 6 Non-QWERTY Keyboard Layouts Alex Charfen (Business Coach) Momentum Podcast DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: This is a special episode because this is our 100th episode. What I wanted to do was share something different. I've been on a lot of other people's podcasts recently and this was one that I really enjoyed, this was with J. Massey of the Cash Flow Diary podcast. He was a really great interviewer, I really enjoyed being on the show. He asked a lot of questions and it really dug into me. I'm not used to somebody really digging into hearing about me as much. I'm usually the one digging in and hearing about other people. I thought my listeners would enjoy this podcast so I asked J. Massey if we could have permission to put this on our podcast and he was glad to let us do so. You get to hear this interview of me being on this episode of the Cash Flow Diary with J. Massey. Enjoy the show. Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. J: All right, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to another episode of the Cash Flow Diary podcast. I'm your host, J. Massey. I'm glad that you are here today because we are going to talk about something that I know, and my guest knows, is one of the most, if not the most, critical piece for your success, not only in business but specifically, the real estate world. I know that many of us were out there. We're trying to grow our cash flow. We're trying to make things happen. Build a bigger, better business, and you're doing it and you're succeeding, and that's great. Also at the same time, many of you are like, “Man, if I could just figure out how to take what I'm doing in business and do it in real estate too, that would be great.” Some of you are like, “Man, I just want to grow that real estate portfolio and make it a little bit bigger and better, but I'm still having some challenges in these specific areas because I can't find any good help. I can't make anybody do what I think is common sense. There's just not enough common best practices out there. How on earth, J, can I find that particular property manager?” Or maybe you are that property manager and you're going, “You know what? How on earth can I find that owner that actually knows what's up and won't drive me nuts?” I believe we have solutions for you today. I have with me today none other than CEO, Jason Hull of DoorGrow, doorgrow.com. Some of you may actually know him from his podcast, the DoorGrow Show. What's going to be interesting today is that Jason wasn't always a property manager. We're going to get to find out the story, the journey, and most importantly, learn the lessons around entrepreneurship along the way that have allowed us the world to be able to know and love Jason the way that he is. Here's what we're going to do, ladies and gentlemen. We're going to pay attention, we're going to make sure that, yes, I know you're walking the dog and doing the dishes, but you're going to hit that mark, you're going to bookmark those spots so that you can come back and listen to the gems that he's going to drop. Most importantly right now though, let's just welcome Jason Hull. Jason, how are you doing? Jason: Wow, that's a great intro. I really appreciate that. J: Thank you. I'm glad that you were here. I'm also excited because we're going to be talking about something that I'm passionate about. Real estate's really important, but more importantly, it's the people and the teams that you hire that tend to make things go well, and sometimes, not go so well. I'm looking forward to that, but before I get down there, I have to ask you the same question I didn't ask everybody else the first time that they're here, are you ready? Jason: Do it. J: All right. I tend to look at today's entrepreneurs a lot like yesterday's superheroes—Batman, Robin, Hulk, Wonder Woman, you get the idea—because I think entrepreneurs and superheroes have a ton of things in common. For example, as an entrepreneur, occasionally, I can envision myself using our products and services, flying around town, and saving customers one sale at a time. Also, like a superhero, an entrepreneur has a beginning. If you think about Spider-Man, for example, there was a time where he's just a kid going to school, doing his own thing, taking some photos, and then one day gets bit by a spider, discovers he's got a superhuman ability, and now he has to choose, “Will I use my newfound talents for good or for evil?” My question to you is as follows. Before DoorGrow, before your podcast, before your degree in marketing, your website design, before being a property manager, before everything we know you for today, what we want to know is who is Jason Hull? Jason: That's a deep question. Let's sum up a whole person really quickly here. J: No pressure. Jason: Yeah, no pressure. First thing, let me just correct something real quick, I had never managed property in my life, yet I somehow am attracting property management entrepreneurs from all over the US and beyond, asking for help in growing and scaling their businesses. I'm more of a nerd that used to be secretly in the background, helping them and had to push myself out into the limelight to make a difference in an industry that I could see there was an obvious change needed to be made. But my background growing up, I grew up with an entrepreneur mother. She is this amazing, loving, charismatic woman that is a real estate agent. She's just had hustle in her since she was a little kid. She's told me stories of she saw the other boys mowing lawns and she was doing babysitting when she was young, she was like, “They're making way more money than me.” She went around and she figured, “I could undercut them by a dollar, go door-to-door, and steal their business, and start offering to mow lawn.” She started mowing lawns to make more money. She just had that bite in her to accomplish and do things. I didn't see myself as an entrepreneur, I didn't really know what an entrepreneur was, yet, I think it was just in my DNA. I was the guy in college that decided, “Hey, I want a band so I'm going to start one. I'm going to write all the music.” I was a guy going door-to-door, pre-selling CDs at girls’ dorms with a guitar in hand and a clipboard for an album that didn't exist so that I could pay for the recording time so I could fund an album, but I wasn't an entrepreneur. J: Yeah. No, that’s not entrepreneurial at all. Jason: I was thinking I needed to go get a job. I was like, “I'm going to finish college and I got to then find a job.” What thrust me into entrepreneurism is I had gotten married really young and the marriage fell apart. I had two kids and I needed to be able to have time that I could spend with them. I didn't want to just be Disney-dad. I had to create a situation in which I had freedom and autonomy. The other factor that played into it is my employer at the time got hit by the whole financial mess back in 2006–2007, I guess, and could no longer pay me. I was just doing nerdy stuff for them at the time. Then I realized, they were now a client. I started reaching out and creating clients. One of the earliest people I had helped was my brother who was just getting started in the property management business. He had just bought a property management franchise, he was fresh out of college with his business partner, they had no doors under management, and they had this terrible website they got from corporate. He was like, “Can you just help me figure this out because you're smart? What do I need to do?” I'm like, “Add some phases to it. That'll increase conversion rates. Let's do this and that.” He's like, “Can you just do it for me? Can you please just build me a site?” I'm like, “Sure, but you're going to pay for it.” He's like, “Okay, no problem.” I built him a website and then suddenly, all of his fellow franchisees—this franchise had maybe 200–300 franchisees in it—and I started attracting these people that had thousands of doors. They wanted what he had. They're like, “Hey, what he has is better. I want that.” Really quickly, here's me, a freelancer, web designer, starting to do websites for people with thousands of doors. Some of these are probably million-dollar-plus businesses. They had really great backlinks, so I was at the top of Google pretty quickly and started getting clients around the US within a short time. I was competing against Goliaths, just me. There we go, now then I'm an entrepreneur. I think I just have an insatiable desire to learn, I just always have, and entrepreneurship allows me to really explore and it's really exciting. J: Got it. Now I see how I got confused about the difference between understanding what it is you do versus being a property manager. It's more you help property managers, is what it sounds like, become better versions of themselves with their marketing and advertising. Am I close? Jason: Yeah. Over the years, I've shifted more into coaching and consulting, but we still do websites, we clean up branding. What I tell property management entrepreneurs in short when they come and ask me what I do, I’d say, “I'm not going to teach you how to do property management. I'm hoping you already know that and you're good at it. I’m going to teach you how to win, that's it.” Basically, what we do in short is we rehab property management companies so that they cash flow effectively, so that they have revenue, they have growth. We optimize their business more for organic. We're cleaning up their branding. Probably 60% or 70% of my clients that come to me, I change their business name, which is ridiculous if you consider how painful, challenging, or scary it is for somebody to do that, but I'm really good at helping them see the principles that impact their decisions about what's going to make money or cost them money. Then it becomes just a financial decision. One thing I know about entrepreneurs is that they usually like to make money. J: Yes, definitely, but what I like about what you've shared with us here is to some degree, you're in what I would call the reluctant entrepreneur category because you weren't even considering like, “I'm not one of those. That's not what I do,” and then over time, you start displaying these traits. Now I'm curious, did your mom ever suggest that, “Hey, son, you might be…” and you have this conversation with her like, “No, no, no, I just need to go get a job?” was that ever a thing? Jason: I don't know if I was reluctant. It just wasn't something that anyone had ever explained to me. I don't even know if I really was clear on what technically an entrepreneur was. I think I'd always had an entrepreneurial spirit. I had a paper out as a kid, my mom would have us fold flyers to canvass neighborhoods for real estate as little kids. She would pay us a penny per fold, if we folded a piece of paper twice, we get two cents. I would fold hundreds and then she would have us go around either on roller skates, scooters, or whatever, go around neighborhoods and just canvas and put those out. She'd keep an eye on us, walk around a bit with us, and we would just canvas neighborhoods. I think I was just raised with it and no one had ever put a label on it. J: Oh, man, this is great. I'm sure some people right now are listening like, “A penny a fold? That's nothing.” I'm sure that happens in somebody's head, but the principle was clearly laid down for you in such a way that you're like, “I'll do it. Okay, let's go,” and you didn't care, and spending time with mom is always awesome. But at the same time, this desire gets left behind and you just keep finding ways to create opportunity. That's what I hear when you talk is you just find ways to create opportunity relative to something that you're currently enjoying. I am curious though did you ever actually get the concert CD album sold? How'd that work out? Jason: I did. We did create the album, we created the CD, I wrote all the music for it, I sang every song on it, and yeah, we got it recorded. It's a pretty decent little album for being self-produced. I was very into the Beatles at the time. J: Okay, yes. There's something else that you're also mentioning, the thing that thrust you, I would say is the correct word, into considering something in entrepreneurship in a more realistic fashion was the combination of kids and your employer not being able to employ you, but most importantly, I hear of a deep-seated value. You’re just like, “You know what? Working for someone else can be fine, but I have two kids now and I value spending more time with them, so I'm going to become or do whatever it takes to make sure that I can do that.” I'm curious to know where that comes from. Jason: I think at the core of people that are really entrepreneurial, they know deep down that they're unemployable. Let's be honest. I worked at HP, I worked at Verizon, I was in call centers, I did a lot of nerdy jobs, I was a nerd, and tech support, stuff like that. In every situation I was in, I think something about me is I create positive uncomfortable change everywhere I go. It's just how I'm wired. I cannot be somewhere and leave things as the status quo. I don't do anything normally. If you could see the keyboard sitting on my desk right now, it's not even in QWERTY order, I pop all the keys off and rearrange them when I get a new computer and keyboard. J: I want a picture now that you said that, but okay. Jason: Yes, somebody can just Google if they want to see a different keyboard layout. J: Dvorak? Jason: Dvorak, yeah. J: Yeah, that's the only other thing. I was like, “What else could it be?” The only other thing I was thinking was Dvorak. But okay, that makes sense. Jason: Yeah, because I'm the guy that my brain just says, “Why is everybody doing it this way? Is this the best way? If it's not, I don't care.” Conventional standards mean very little to me. There's a lot of quirky things about me, and I think entrepreneurs are quirky. You look at Steve Jobs or you look at different entrepreneurs, they have weird habits. Like Steve Jobs, I wear the same clothes every day. I have black t-shirts, I have black pants, I have a whole closet full of black pants and black t-shirts. I just want it simple. I don't want to have to make decisions about that. I wear black hoodies, and I put on a conference, I've been around lots of people in business suits, that's what I wear because I don't care. I just want to be comfortable and that's what I wear. I think ultimately, as entrepreneurs, we need to allow ourselves to do what we need to do to lower the pressure noise instead of trying to play everybody else's game. For example, with the keyboard, I realized my wrists were hurting. I was typing a lot. I was getting my degree online at the time, I was also working, and I was typing a lot. I was like, “This seems stupid, this is really dumb. Why are my wrists hurting?” I did what I like to do, which is nerd out, and do some research in Google and I realized, “Oh, Dvorak has 50% less movement, it would cut my movement in half.” The home row on the left hand is all the most commonly-used vowels and the home row on the right hand is all the most commonly used consonants, so there's more back and forth between the two hands. QWERTY’s history was that it was designed and developed to slow down typist. The keys used to be in alphabetical order and they wanted to screw them up because they were typing too fast and the typewriters couldn't handle the speed. I'm like, “Okay, why am I doing this?” It took me, maybe about a month to get used to typing in a different format. My wrist issues went away and I was a lot more comfortable. J: I like you a lot, I like this. It’s like, “Hey, this doesn't work for me. We're going to figure out what does.” I now have this question. What was that transition moment? There's usually a moment at which, like I said earlier, the superhero recognizes. “I have something special here, and now I get to choose what I'm going to do with it.” You clearly had that moment, but that moment is often, we'll call it rocky, not as smooth, or there's usually some strong emotions around it in some way, shape, or form, or some pivotal conversation. What was it like when you realize, “My employer can't pay me. I guess they'll become a client,” and then you go, “Huh, maybe what I need to do is develop a surface around this whole thing and do my own thing?” What was that like? Jason: I think really for me, it's been a longer journey than just right in the beginning. A lot of people see me is a really confident guy, but I really have a strong introverted side. I wasn't that confident guy. In school, I did a lot of performing, I did music, stuff like that, but I still had a strong introverted side. I think that confidence level, part of it happened early on working with entrepreneurs and just recognizing that they couldn't see things I could see. I was like, “You can't see that this is a problem, that you’re branded as a real estate company and it's causing you to lose probably 50% of the deals and leads you should be because you're a property management business, but on the tenants as real estate. There were just things they didn't see that seems so obvious to me. The other thing is I'm really curious. With each client I would work with, just to do a website, I would probably spend on average about six hours doing a planning and discovery process over, maybe a period of a week or two with them. Multiple sessions, getting clear on their target audience, their avatar, what needs to be included in the website, what their avatar’s pain is, what they want. It became really clear to me that most of the websites were focused on tenants, yet they're not hunting for tenants, they don't have problems getting tenants, they want more owners to manage properties for. It just seemed obvious to me that everything was off on the websites that existed at the time. I think I just grew in confidence that I could help people, but I still stayed heavily in the background. I was also in a rough marriage, my second marriage. I was in a marriage in which I didn't really have belief. I didn't have somebody that believed in me and that didn't help the confidence thing going. Eventually, I signed up with a business coach. I went through several different coaches. Some I was a bad fit for, honestly, I just wasn't ready for them. Some, they were a bad fit. Some maybe were really great marketers and terrible coaches. I eventually got a really great business coach that I've been working with for a couple of years now. I remember going down to meet with him in Austin. He has a fantastic podcast, by the way, called The Momentum Podcast. His name is Alex Charfen; a really brilliant guy. I went down and met with him and some other entrepreneurs down in Austin. My business was struggling, we're maybe about $300,000 in revenue annually at the time. I felt like an ant in the room. I was around entrepreneurs that had multi-million dollar companies, I felt completely unworthy, my confidence just wasn't really strong, and yet when he would open up for dialogue, I would end up captivating everyone else in the room, and that was weird for me that I was able to communicate in a way that all of them wanted to know more and they were really fascinated about what I was talking about. I had learned a lot, I just didn't have the confidence yet to put it out there. I hadn't said, “Hey, I'm going to change this entire industry. I'm the one to do it.” I was like, “Somebody else should do it. Somebody that's been a property manager. Maybe somebody that runs a big, huge property management franchise should be the one.” My business coach was like, “Who else could do it? You're the one that you care about it, you're the one who can see what needs to change, and they’re everybody else’s competition. Why would they help everybody?” I'm like, ‘That's a good point,” but I had wicked impostor syndrome. I think that's a challenge for entrepreneurs that we have to kill is that impostor syndrome in which we don't feel like we're enough, or we're good enough, or that we qualify, or we’re worthy. We sometimes think we need to find that external validation to say that we're okay. I think that came just in working with clients. I grew in confidence in situations in which I was able to finally place myself around other entrepreneurs because one of the most damaging things we do as entrepreneurs is that we spend too much time around non-preneurs. J: Yeah, I believe you. Jason: It's painful and it's difficult because we see opportunity everywhere. We see how we can change and impact the world. We want to make a difference, we want to contribute, and the rest of the world looks at us like we're crazy, we're making them uncomfortable. “Why can't you leave good enough alone?” They hear the struggles we go through as an entrepreneur and they say, “Why don't you just get a job?” They look at us like we're crazy and then we look at them like, “Why don't I just slit my wrists now? How can you just sit there and tolerate, complaining about your boss and your job, and living for the weekend? Don't you want something bigger?” We don't understand them, but I think if we’re around non-preneurs too much, it wears us down. It breaks us a little bit. It's really hard and I hadn't really yet been around entrepreneurs. I think as entrepreneurs are starting out in our early development when we're in the early stages of being an entrepreneur, one of the biggest things that hold us back is being lonely. That's it. We're just not around other people like us to say, “You're normal. You, as an entrepreneur, are awesome, amazing, and you can change the world. You don't have to live by everybody else's rules.” J: Agreed. There's something that you said that I often have thought about myself. I know that there are people who are listening have had that same thought at least once. You mentioned that yes, we desire to make a difference, we want to see change, and we're not happy with the, ‘That's just not the way you do it, it should be this way.” That's just how we roll, and yet we're the ones who can see the problem. Like your business coach is saying, why aren't we the ones who can resolve it? But more importantly or said a different way, does that come across to you when you can see an issue? Does it come across to you—I know it does for me—as a responsibility like, “Okay, it’s me, obviously. I'm the one who sees it, this is my thing. So, let me go solve this problem”? That's how it feels to me when I notice opportunity or something that's just not right that could be better. Jason: Yeah. I think there are two sides to this. I think one, opportunity. On the negative side, I think opportunity also can kill us as entrepreneurs because we do see it everywhere. It can be incredibly distracting. There's that opportunist in all of us, and if we focus on too many opportunities, we don't really get to make any headway in anyone. That's a temptation and a challenge entrepreneurs deal with early on is struggle to focus and to niche down. On the positive side, we see that the world can be better. We can see it. We are the change-makers. We are the people throughout history, throughout time eternal probably, that were the ones that would move society forward. We would make everyone uncomfortable, we would change something, and we would move people towards a higher and better ideal. J: Now, let me ask you this question. You could have chosen any industry to serve. Why property managers? I've spent so much time as the one owning the property. This may sound funny to you, but I never considered that property managers had a problem finding owners. That never occurred to me because it just never occurred to me that they had that as a business problem. Obviously, it's there because you're saying it, but as an entrepreneur, you could choose to serve anybody. You could have taken this skill to any industry, so to speak, because believe me, they're not the only one with a problem. Why property management? Jason: That's a really good point. I don't think there was a time in my life as a child that I woke up and said, “I want to help property management business owners when I grow up. I want to get into this industry that's focused on toilets, tenants, and termites, that sounds exciting to me.” J: It's right after firemen, I understand. Jason: Yeah, I'll either be a superhero or I will be a property management coach. J: Yeah, absolutely, totally right. Jason: No, that's a great question. I think I resisted it, to be honest, in the beginning. It came to me like I just started attracting them, I tried to just help every type of business though, still, I didn't niche out. It took me a while. I started my corporation, my company back in 2008, but DoorGrow as a brand was maybe only four or five years ago. It took me a little while to, I guess, choose into that niche fully. I think it was imposter syndrome like, “I've never done this so I feel like I'm not the person to do it.” For a lot of people, it's not the sexiest industry. Here's how you fall in love with property management.If you're an entrepreneur that's a little bit nerdy, property management is like the systemizable, more tech-savvy version of the real estate industry. It's residual income instead of the hunt and the chase for the next deal as a realtor. It's a business that can be optimized over time. It's a business that can follow the theory of constraints and you can make processes around. All of that appealed to me. What I really fell in love with was not property management. It's the people that are property managers. Do you want to talk about resilient, innovative entrepreneurs? Property management entrepreneurs. You cannot imagine the level of challenges, difficulty, and negotiating. I don't think there's any industry like it because in terms of customer interaction, it's rated third behind retail and hospitality; it's heavily a people business. In retail and hospitality, you're not negotiating really difficult situations not unlike a lawyer between two opposed parties as the middle person, but in property management that's what you end up doing. These are really some of the sharpest people. They're just amazing entrepreneurs to be around and honestly, I just chose into doing it because I wanted to be around people that are like me. Entrepreneurs. I love my clients. I love being able to spend time with them. I do not feel weird and I really enjoy that. I have a nerdy background and a lot of the clients that are attracted to me, they like figuring out processes, systems, technology, and that sort of thing. There's just a strong resonance in the type of entrepreneur that is in that industry. J: For the person that's listening right now that happens to be a property manager or maybe it's an owner who's currently doing his own property management in some way, shape, or form, what would you say are the top three things you tend to assist a new client with from day one? How do they know, how can they recognize, “Oh, I need Jason”? What is it that you end up doing over there at DoorGrow for them typically in that first appointment or the first solutions you guys come to the table with? Jason: Let's go back to the question you asked me earlier about the surprising problem that exists in property management. J: Yeah, that is still a thing in my head like, “Wow, I didn't know they had problems finding me? I didn't know that.” Jason: Yeah, every business exists to solve a problem. If a business is not solving a problem, they're stealing money. The problem that exists in the property management industry that I could see, property management has two major challenges. The biggest challenge first is awareness, there are a lot of people that have property. In the US, in single-family residential rental properties, only about 30% are professionally managed, 70% are self managing. The first biggest hurdle is awareness, there's just a lot of people that are not aware of what a property management company would do for them. The average Joe on the street if you said, “Hey, I'm a property manager,” they would say, “Great, I guess you manage a property.” They don't really know what that means. There's a strong lack of awareness to the point where property management really is relatively, in the US, in its infancy. Let's contrast that with Australia. In Australia, 80% of single-family residential rentals are professionally managed. There are reasons for that. There's steeper legislation there, it's more consumer-focused and a lot of that, but the word on the street is that it grew 25% in a decade, it grew massively. But in the US, property management still is this ugly cousin of real estate, it has this negative perception, especially among real estate. The other challenge is property management is the number one source of property management-related issues like fair housing challenges, mismanagement of trust funds, or leases, all this stuff, property management is the number one source of complaints at most any board of real estate. Not real estate, property management is. So, everything property management. This is why it's perpetuated heavily among the real estate industry. Realtors say, “Oh, property management. That's gross. Don't touch that. How could you do that?” The second hurdle that takes the next big portion of potential market share away is perception. Property management has a very negative perception among investors, among people that are aware of it. There's a negative perception that takes away the next big chunk of potential market share. After perception takes a hit, those that are aware and they think they have a decent enough perception to think, “At least, I have to have one or I need one,” or maybe they are okay—there are some good ones—then word-of-mouth captures what's leftover. Word-of-mouth captures the best clients that property management might get. After word-of-mouth, the scraps that fall off my client’s table, that fall off the word-of-mouth table, the coldest, crappiest, worst leads that are the most price-sensitive, that view all property managers as the same and is a commodity, that are the worst owners and properties to build a portfolio on, in which you're going to have probably an operational cost in your property management company of 10 times higher than that of having healthy good doors and owners, those are the people searching on Google. That's what's leftover. Most property management business owners are trying to build their business on the back of Google. I'm wearing a t-shirt right now, you can't see, but it says, “SEO won't save you.” It has a hand reaching up out of the water, trying to grab a life preserver, a black t-shirt with white lettering. This is a message I put out to the industry that they don't need to be playing the SEO lottery because, really, search volume in the property management industry has actually been on a steady decline. According to Google Trends in the US, it's been a steady decline since July of 2011. It's been going down, yet every marketer targeting the industry, every service provider, every web design company, they're shoving and pushing the concept that SEO is going to save them. They just need the top spot on Google. They're playing into this myth, so all these property managers are spending marketing dollars, their hard-earned money, they’re trying to run Google Ads, everything to be at the top of Google, and they're not getting an ROI. They're not getting a return on that investment. It's an incredibly expensive game that has many potential points of failure. You have to be a property management business, usually, at about 200 to 400 doors, with a business development manager. You have to be making sure that all of your phone calls are answered and you're following up on every lead within the first 10 minutes to really play that marketing game. I found most property management business owners were not at that level. I wanted to create them, get them to that level. Originally, I was the guy doing that stuff, I was a marketing company, I was a guy helping with those type of things, and I realized really quickly that it wasn't working. They weren't even answering their phones. Why would I send them a lead that's only good for maybe about 10 minutes—that's how long an internet lead’s probably good for, maybe 15—and then 80% drop off in conversion rates if they're not going to answer their phones? I just pivoted this company and I was thinking, “What would I do if I were going to start a property management business? What are all the most common problems that I can see even in the largest companies? Where are the biggest leaks in their sales pipeline?” Just like the theory of constraints, I just went from the beginning of the sales pipeline, which is that awareness. It's branding. Branding was costing some of them half the amount of deals and leads they could or should be getting. Some companies do real estate and property management. By eliminating real estate from the branding, I helped double their real estate commissions, ironically, because property management is a great front-end product. Real estate is a better back-end product. People don't wake up in the morning and say, “I want to find a realtor today. That sounds exciting to me.” No. They want property, they want to find buyers, they try to for sale by owner, but eventually, they list with an agent. The property management, if you have a constant influx of owners, investors that may get into additional properties, constant influx of renters and tenants, you have buyers and sellers. You have bodies constantly flowing into the business and this is the dream of a real estate company. We just started addressing these big leaks from branding, reputation, which is word-of-mouth, their website wasn't built around conversions and targeting the audience, their sales process, pricing strategy played into this heavily, they were not priced effectively, they were taking too many deals at too low of a price point. Psychologically, for example, there are three types of buyers. Most of them just had one fee, serving one type of buyer, and there was no price anchoring. I just started to see all these different leaks that we could shore up through the pipeline so that we could optimize their business for organic growth. Then the big secret is at the front end of this. Once we get all of these leaks dialed in, their sales process, they have follow-up, all these things are in place, what spigot should we turn on through this pipeline? They could go back and do cold-lead marketing, but cold leads are terrible. Conversion rates are low even if they're a bad A. I don't know what the rating is on your podcast so I'll be careful. If they're a bad A in sales, they’ll only get maybe about 30% conversion rate or close rate, but most people, say 1 out of 10 cold leads, they'll convert. The hidden killer with cold leads in any industry or business—the secret the marketers don't want to tell you—is they can't give you contracts. Marketers cannot give you contracts. You can't hand dollars to a marketer and they will hand you written signed contracts or clients. What they can hand you at best, usually, the furthest they can push it along is usually a really cold lead. That's it. That's typically what they can give you is they give you a cold lead and this cold lead then has to be nurtured. You have to warm it up. You have to get them to know you, trust you, and like you.  Cold leads convert really poorly, usually, you'll get maybe 1 out of 10. The hidden killer though with cold leads is time. This is the hidden killer with cold leads that small business owners don't realize. Time on a cold lead is at least twice as much time as a warm lead or maybe three times as much. I found clients when I would ask them, “How much time do you spend warming these people up, calling them, meeting them at the property?” They say in total, in my sale-cycle time, three to six hours to close the deal. “How long does it take you a warm lead?” I was getting answers like 15 minutes, maybe an hour, it was like half, at least, half the amount of time. These small business owners, if you give them 10 leads in a week and it's going to take them 2 to 3 hours to do all the follow-up necessary and they're going to get maybe 1 or 2 deals out of it, that's a full-time job. They don't have the time, as small business owners, to do that if they're also the main person doing the selling. They just didn't have the bandwidth to do it. It wasn't even possible for me to give cold leads to clients and have them win that game. They didn't have the time. They really work part-time crappy salespeople that had maybe about 10 hours a week to focus on that piece. I had to create a system that will allow them more warm leads. Instead of the front-end of this pipeline, what I teach clients to do is to go to prospecting. There's 70% self-managing. There's so much blue ocean in property management and yet everyone's fighting over the coldest, crappiest, worst leads that fall off the word-of-mouth table, that are searching on Google in the bloody red water. It's created this false sense of scarcity that's so strong in the industry that everybody feels like the industry is scarce, yet there’s 70% self-managing and none of them are really happy doing it. J: I have been doing real estate for over a decade and I have never even considered this concept from the property manager’s perspective in this way. I've always considered them partners. I've never wanted the lowest guy, they’re such a critical piece. Some of the things that you said, I was like, “Why would somebody bargain-basement shop for a property manager? That's just silly, you don't understand, you can't do that. That's not going to work long term,” but I've never thought about the fact that they would have trouble finding the quality owners. Just hearing you describe their world, it's like, “Oh, wow, yeah. I can see why that would be a challenge.” I'm curious, though, when a property manager is out there and trying to make it work—I'm just going to throw it out there—how can the good owners let the good property managers know that, “Hey, yeah, I would love to have you”? Jason: I think the biggest challenge I usually hear is that there aren't any good property managers. How do you find one that's good? Those owners feel completely unsafe. The industry has a really bad reputation as a whole. One of the concepts I teach—all these principles apply to really any industry, in any industry—branding has an impact, reputation has impact, pricing strategy has an impact. There's nothing I'm doing for this industry that is only related to this industry. I think the challenge the industry has, though, is it just has a lot less awareness, but I think that also means there's a lot more opportunity. There's a huge opportunity in property management. If we were to grow even remotely close to how Australia's grown in a decade, that would mean the industry in the US would double. I think property management could be as big as the real estate industry here in the US. There's much potential. I don't think it's been tapped. I think property management in the US has artificially been kept small and it is really a business category that's in its infancy. If you look at business categories that are relatively new in the US, you've got marijuana, vaping, and stuff like this, maybe Bitcoin or cryptocurrency, there's these fledgling industries. Property management's been around a long time, but it's still in its infancy. There's a huge potential there to grow. There are a lot of bad owners. That's true, too. The accidental investors didn't really want to have a rental property, but they needed it, and they just want to get rid of it after a year. If a property manager builds their portfolio on those type of doors, which some do, they have to replace every single client every single year. J: Yeah, that's an untenable situation that would go with that. Jason: Yeah. You'll find property managers fall into this first sand trap of 50 units or so. One question you can ask them is, “How many doors do you have under management?” If they're in the 50 or 60 door category, then I call that the first sand trap. That's one of my key avatars that I want to help is to get them out of that first sand trap. I call that the solopreneur sand trap where they're doing everything in the business, they've taken on too many clients at too low of a price point. And this applies to any industry. As a small business owner, you take on too many clients at too low of a price point, you back yourself into a financial corner, and you take on the worst clients because you're needy, and your operational costs with bad clients are 10 times higher than that of having good clients, easily. One bad property or a bad owner that tries to micromanage you is easily 10 times the operational cost, time and attention, and stress as one good door or one good owner, easily. If you build a portfolio of that, you're stuck. You're backed into a financial corner, you can't afford to hire anybody, and you're losing as many doors as you’re getting on in a year. You're stuck. Sometimes, I have to tell them to do really painful stuff like fire customers in order to create space. J: Yeah, that makes 100% sense. For those that have listened to this far and want to find out more about what you've got going on, what's going to be the best way for them to track you down? Jason: I love connecting with other entrepreneurs and a really easy way for them to connect with me, I'm on every social channel—probably—that exists, because I'm nerdy, as @KingJasonHull. They can connect with me as @KingJasonHull on any social channel, especially Facebook. Then if they're in real estate and they're really considering getting into property management, they've managed rental properties, they feel like they know how to do it, but they want to grow that side of the business and maybe feed their real estate side, or they’re a property management entrepreneur that's been struggling at doors and they want to make a difference and grow, then they can just reach out to us at doorgrow.com. J: Okay, I've got a question I just got to ask now. I wasn't going to do this, but I got to ask. My entire world when it comes to real estate, is all around the whole world of short-term rentals. It's what we do, it's what we teach, it's how our students have achieved success. One of the interesting things is that when we're interfacing with individuals, we often get the question, “Why don't I just get a property manager?” I'm like, “You don't understand. What we are talking about is completely different than what a property manager would typically do.” I'm just curious if the whole idea of short-term rentals or things of that nature, because being able to add that, if property managers took that on, they'd be able to solve some of their revenue issues for sure. Is that something you're seeing happening and in any way with your clients? Jason: Yeah, I think there is a trend of short-term rentals coming into the space. If long-term rental property management is in its infancy, I think that's even younger. There are property managers, especially in more resort-like areas where vacation rentals are more popular, I think all of them have some, they get into that, especially the larger management companies, just by nature of having a larger business and lots of different investors, they're going to have some short-term rentals. Short-term rentals make a lot of sense for them. It's a lot of turnovers, it's a lot more work, but it also can be a lot more payout for them. There is a trend shifting towards that. J: Yeah. I just asked because, in order to do it effectively, there's just specialization that's required. That's why we just stepped up and started doing it because we can’t find the property manager that could do a good a job as we have learned to do and now teach others to do. It’s just like, “You know what? We'll just do it ourselves.” That's what's happening, but at the same time, in the back of my head, I'm like, “Man, they're missing an opportunity. If they would just understand some of these things that we're doing, I think it would work well.” I was just curious, it's been in the back of my head, I'm like, “I wonder, considering you're helping them put their services together.” Jason: Yeah, J, be careful because that is the story that almost all of my clients tell me. You may end up in this industry. That's what they all tell me. They all come to me and they’re like, “I started this business X number of years ago and it was because we were investors and we couldn't find a property manager that was good enough to do things the way that we needed it done, so we started one. They're all bad and we're good,” I hear that almost every day. J: Oh, man, I love it. Okay, as we wind down, I've got a final question for you because I'm really curious to hear your answer. Here's what I know. I know that individuals started the call on one spot, and now, as we’re ending, they're in a different spot. They're at what I like to call the precipice of decision. It's where they go, “You know what? That's it. I can do this. I can make this happen.” Maybe they are a property manager and, “Yeah, I should call Jason. That's exactly what I need to do. I need to track him down, figure this out.” They're drawing that proverbial line in the sand, they're saying that's it, and now they're going to be different. Now, Jason, you know like I know that when we make those types of decisions, we often have a companion, and it's a companion that comes in the form of a voice that says things like, “You? Now, you know good and well last time you tried anything, it didn't really work out. What on earth are you thinking about? Oh, my gosh, no one's going to buy anything from you. You're not going to be able to get any clients, whatsoever, so why don't you just go back to your job?” For some people, they're related to that voice. My question to you is as follows. Let's pretend that this time it's going to be different. This time they're going to do exactly what you suggest and they're going to do so in the next 24 to 48 hours. What would you suggest that they do? Jason: If somebody has a voice, especially if it's an external voice, saying, “You don't have what it takes. You can't do this. You need to play it safe,” they need to find another voice. The truest voice that we all have is the voice deep down. That's never the voice that we have deep down. When somebody says, “Oh, deep down I knew it would be like this,” or, “Deep down I knew I should have done this,” or, “Deep down, I just knew it was the right move.” The voice deep down—you can call that the voice of God, you can call that your intuition, you can call it your gut—is the truest voice and that's the only voice we really should be listening to. Let me close an open loop I left open earlier. I mentioned how I was down in Austin, I'd met with my business coach for the first time down there, I was around all the other entrepreneurs, I felt like an ant in the room, but I was sharing ideas, they were resonating with it. My business coach asked me to describe what I did and he said, “Oh, that'll never work.” Then, I explained to how much money I was making and what I was doing, so he understood it, he looked at me and he said, “Jason, you have a $20 million company and you don't even know it.” Do you want to know what I started doing? I started crying. I had had little validation, I had much resistance from spouse, I just had no support around me in terms of being connected to entrepreneurs, I started crying in front of a room of other entrepreneurs. I needed that in that moment, badly. Fast forward. In a year, I had 300% growth. We were a million-dollar company in about a year. I was crying and it was like a cathartic thing that somebody could see what I felt deep down and they believed in me. I don't know if there's anything more powerful than that to be seen for who you really are and I think that is the love or energy that we all need as entrepreneurs in order to grow. We need that belief. J: 100%. I definitely appreciate the journey that you have been on. I thank you for taking the time to distill your knowledge down in such a way that you could then share it, become the person that's capable of sharing it, and influencing an industry that's very close to my own heart. At the end of the day, it's where it's been at for us for quite some time, it's where we're going to stay, but the more that you enable property managers to do what they do and find the customers that they need, the better I think it all gets for everyone. Just let me be the first to say thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge, wisdom, and insight here with us today at the Cash Flow Diary. Jason: J, it's been an absolute pleasure. In line with what you just said, I really do believe deep down that good property management can change the world. The impact that they can have in that industry is massive. They're affecting homes, families, on the tenant and the owner’s side. They're affecting people's cash flow. They're affecting their finances. They're affecting real estate investors that got into the real estate investing with the myth that it could be turnkey. The impact is massive and I think that's what gets me excited about the industry. We're contribution-focused banks as entrepreneurs, we want to have an impact. I appreciate you allowing me to share that message and to be here on your show. J: All right, ladies and gentlemen, you know what time it is? It's time for you to move at the speed of instruction. What does that mean? That means get over to doorgrow.com. That means go listen to his podcast. That also means connect with him. He said he wants to talk to you, it's very simple, ladies and gentlemen. One of the things that I hope you learn from today's episode is when you see a need, it's probably your responsibility to go fill it and just figure it out along the way. You don't need to understand everything at the beginning, but over time, you can get there. But most importantly as you heard and I heard, you want to follow that path, follow that voice that is telling you there's greatness inside. Ladies and gentlemen, it's been fun talking to you today. I look forward to talking to you soon. Until next time. Jason: You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

Are you a property manager or owner who wants to recoup financial losses when stuck with a bad tenant who stops paying rent or needs to be evicted? Lower your risk? Trust somebody else to manage your properties? Protect all parties involved?  Today, I am talking to John Higgins, co-founder and CEO of Steady Marketplace, a leading technology platform for property owners and managers. Steady’s subsidiaries offer financial products, including rent default insurance.  You’ll Learn... [02:00] Background of Big Financial Numbers: Starting with event-driven, distressed, and activist hedge fund managers with billions in assets.  [06:37] Steady’s products protect property owners/managers from bad tenant outcomes.  [07:40] Rent Default Insurance: Protection against rental income loss due to tenant’s failure to pay.  [10:15] Rent Default Insurance is widely available and adopted around the world. About 70% are renters and 30% are owners. [12:38] Collaboration Over Competition: Don’t simply copy-and-paste products and policies; leads to lack of innovation. [13:55] Automate It All: Learn from online lending space using technology to streamline processes, operations, and pricing. [15:05] Perfect Businesses are Out of Business: Entrepreneurs think they've got something perfect, only to realize they need to make it better.  [16:15] By the Book: Take regulatory issues seriously, and make sure to do it right. [17:00] Adoption is #1 challenge with any solution, software, or service.  [17:55] Competitive Advantage: Education, awareness, and understanding of product.  [20:53] FAQs: How does it work? Why does this exist? What’s the catch?  [21:55] Renter’s Insurance vs. Rent Default Insurance: What’s the difference? Tweetables Every entrepreneur should make a difference. Otherwise, they're just causing problems. When there’s a loss of rental income due to tenant default, there is no protection. Automate everything: Go slow to go fast. That's how the process works. It's constant iteration to get better, and better, and better. Resources John Higgins’ Email Steady Marketplace Steady Marketplace FAQ John Higgins on LinkedIn SureVestor Rent Rescue National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners, we want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today, I am hanging out with John Higgins of Steady Marketplace. John, welcome to the DoorGrow Show. John: It's great to be here, Jason. Thanks for having me. Jason: John, you've got a really big bio and you're really impressive. Do you want me to read all of it? John: You can read whatever you want to read. I'm not that impressive. I'll say you're more impressive hosting this show and with your following in the space. I'm just a guy trying to make a difference. Jason: I appreciate it. That's what every good entrepreneur is trying to do is make a difference, at least I hope. Otherwise, they're just causing problems.  I'll read a little bit here. It says you are the co-founder and CEO of Steady Technologies Inc., a leading technology platform for property owners and property managers. Steady, through subsidiaries, offers financial products that benefit property owners and managers. Their first product is rent default insurance, offered in partnership with the top US insurance carrier that is a Fortune 100 company, rated A+ by AM Best, and S&P.  Prior to co-founding Steady, Mr. Higgins founded Nobadeer Advisors which provided business development and capital market expertise to technology-enabled lending platforms across the variety of consumers and business, lending verticals, and backed by top venture capital firms globally.  Prior to Nobadeer, Mr. Higgins spent 2.5 years at Prosper Marketplace, Inc. where he helped build the institutional loan program growing it from $0 to over $5 billion over his tenure and help scale Prosper's monthly origination volumes over 4000% during his time at the firm.  Mr. Higgins also previously served as a director at Topwater Capital, now owned by Leucadia, where he made investments between $5-$100 million to hedge fund managers across a variety of strategies via structured managed accounts.  Prior to Topwater, Mr. Higgins spent five years working for event-driven, distressed, and activist hedge fund managers with assets as large as $1.85 billion. There's a lot of big financial numbers here, John. A lot of big financial numbers. John: Want me to dive a bit deeper on it and summarize for you? Jason: Yeah. Let's dive into that and then tell us how you got into all of these. John: Sure. I can start from how I got into the hedge funds space which led me through here. I started and talk my way into an internship my junior college, totally unqualified, at the University of New Hampshire versus people that are top of their class from top business schools. Got a shot to join big hedge fund on my way up. I worked my tail off that summer and got a full time offer. I joined that firm full time after I graduated college. I was really lucky. I worked for the really brilliant entrepreneur there who would start this business with $500,000. Four years later, he grew it to almost $2 billion.  Then, left that company and went to Topwater where I was invested in hedge fund strategies via structured managed accounts, kind of cross the bench of the long, short, and distressed credit. That company was acquired by Leucadia which is now Jefferies Investment Bank; the two merged. Leucadia was at a big stake and Jefferies a long story anyway. As that transaction was transpiring, I was approached by the former management team across the marketplace who've I known from the hedge fund industry. They had great entrepreneurs that built and sold the company that served hedge funds called Merlin Securities. They're backed by Sequoia. Sold that business to Wells Fargo and decided they were going to take over Prosper.  They reached out and said, "We're looking for someone to help us build out this business as we take it over and turn it around." Really fortunate to work with tremendous entrepreneurs and the tremendous team there. During my time there, we went from about 50 employees up to about 600+ when I left. That was my first foray into more pure play technology.  We're a financial technology platform. We're offering unsecured personal loans online to end consumers. If you're thinking about going online, applying for a personal loan, no human interaction, [...] pricing, I can get you a loan in a matter of days as opposed to having to leave your house, go to a bank, et cetera, and fill up paper forms. After leaving Prosper, I was consulting for various lending platforms as you touched on in the intro. I got to work again with tremendous entrepreneurs across a bunch of different verticals. One of the people I've got to work with was doing some lending into the small landlord space. It's fix and flip lending and also rental lending. I started looking at the opportunities. I said, "This is really interesting. I know all of these products that helped multifamily owners protect them against bad tenant outcomes."  There's a lot of companies that pop up doing that, but no one's really going after single family. I started looking at the space and opportunity. As you and everyone else in the space realizes, it's actually bigger than the multifamily space. When you live in New York, everyone thinks rental properties are the big highrise. In fact, there's roughly more than 16 million single family rental units in the US, then another 8 million duplexes, triplex quads. All in all, you have about 20 million rental units in the US owned by individual investors that owned less than 10 units. These owners actually can't solve for this risk which is if the tenant goes bad. The smart owners are getting professional property managers or actually better at picking tenants at the established processes and procedures. They're getting bad tenants out. It can help manage those properties and have better outcomes. But still, when there’s a loss of rental income due to tenant default, there is no protection. In fact, my business partner and co-founder, Viken, had a property in New York City that he was renting. Person just skips town in the middle of the night. He was left with close to $20,000. It actually might have been north of $20,000 loss because the tenant just left the unit and didn't say anything. It took awhile to get it rerented. He had no coverage. If he had, it had no protection against that. If you had Steady or some of these other providers that are popping up, they could've indemnify themselves from that loss, and could've been made whole for a modest premium.  Long story short, there's a big need in the market to this type of product. What we're really excited about is working with all the property managers across the country to help ensure this is product underlying landlords and finding ways for everyone to win. Jason: Cool. Let's talk about the product specifically. Explain this to somebody that's never heard of this. They might even be an unseasoned property manager. Describe the problem that exists, that this solves for. John: Sure. When you look at it, if the tenant goes bad whether it's professionally managed or not—let’s suppose it’s some professionally managed properties; that's really who we're serving here in this podcast, and who we speak to—if their tenants goes bad, the owner's mad at them. They might've lose that door because guess what? They probably picked the tenant. They were entrusted by the landlord or the owner to find the tenant, to select the right tenant, and now the tenant's bad. So, the owner's mad, they might lose every relationship. The owner's also rental income. As a result, property managers also lost their property management fee income. Generally, they're charging based on the property management fee.  If you look globally, across Australia, New Zealand, and Europe, this type of insurance product, rent default insurance, is widely available and widely adopted. The reason is that, if you look in other jurisdictions, primarily Europe, it's flipped from the US. It's about 70% renter 30% owner. As we know, post financial crisis, more and more US consumers are now choosing to rent instead of own. So, the property management space is going to be larger and the rental property market is getting larger.  As this is occuring, we think that more and more people will be in need of this insurance because we have a growing market. The insurance itself indemnifies and there's different flavors. We'll speak generally about rent default insurance and what's out there as opposed to Steady, specifically. What we want to do is educate the market on the availability of these types of products.  Rent default insurance, generally speaking, indemnifies the owner against losses as a result of the bad tenant outcome. It could be eviction, tenant skips, et cetera; different programs to different coverages. What this does is it allows the owner who can't self-insure due to the diversification to recoup losses if they are unfortunately stuck with the bad tenant that stops paying rent or needs to get evicted.  Different people had different approaches to it. Us at Steady, we've taken a lot of the learnings from the online lending space using technology to streamline processes, operations, and try to deliver a great product that are at a reasonable price to the end market.  A lot of property managers are saying, "Hey, this is great. This is a huge concern that my underlying owners have. What happens if the tenant doesn't pay rent?" They see property management companies out there that have eviction protection plans or other plans. You've got the SureVestors, the Rent Rescues, and a bunch of other great companies out here, all serving for these types of risks and helping solve these pain points. The reason for that is this huge market is a huge concern. If you've got one property, say you own a home and you move for work across the country. You can't sell your home or whatever reason you have. You put it with the professional property manager. They're managing that, but you're relying on that cash flow for maintenance, upkeep, taxes, et cetera. In many cases, to pay the mortgage. If that tenant goes bad, all of a sudden, you're break even or your cash flowing property gone upside down and now you're coming out of pocket. You now have a liability that you have to come out of the pocket for every month. That's a big pain point, a big concern, and what these types of products do is solve for those types of risk, help landlords have peace of mind, and protect against bad tenant outcomes. Jason: You name dropped some of your own competitors, which is very generous of you. How does Steady standout or differ? How do you compare, standout, or differ in the space? John: We've taken a bit of a different approach on how we can structure our products and policy. A lot of other competitors, not just in space but in insurance generally, what they do is copy and paste what other products work on their markets or other products that other people have launched, and there's not a lot of innovation. As a result, we haven't seen a huge take rate for these types of product in the US.  What we found—you might feel differently—my business partner, Viken, grew up in Paris. What works in Europe doesn't necessarily work in the US. What works in Australia doesn't necessarily work for the US. What Viken and I did when we came together is we deconstructed how these programs work globally. We took a lot of the learning from online lending to build what we believe is a better program here in the US.  One differentiation is automation. Our entire process is fully automated. We just set an email prior to this event saying, "We are now in 20 states." We've got the ability to be in all 50 states. The reason we're not in all 50 states right now is because we want to automate everything. It is going slow to go fast. As we start to take it off here and ramp because the updates have been very strong, it's continuing to go stronger daily, everything will be automated. What that will result in is more efficient processes, procedures, and better pricing.  Jason: Explain what that means so everyone understands. You're saying that automation is a differentiator and that it's fully automated. What's automated? John: A property manager or a property owner can go online to the website, inquire about rent default insurance on their own, and complete the entire process in less than two minutes. There's no human interaction necessary and they could do everything themselves. Now, newer company, newer brand, we’re lucky to be aligned with the very strong brand in the insurance space, but nothing's perfect. As you know, as an entrepreneur, you think you've got something perfect and they realize you need to make it better. That's how the process works. It's constant iteration to get better, and better, and better. Jason: The perfect businesses are out of business. John: Right. We continue to constantly push new development releases and streamlining things. What we believe is that, if you can make the process as easy as buying, say for instance, travel insurance when you're buying a flight and make it that easy, that will be a great outcome for us and for this market. The way which you can do that is through API integrations, the right product structures, the right creativity, the right business development strategies, et cetera.  If you look at our product, where our technology is our technology, our product is our product, the two weren't built separately. They're built together. They work very closely together and in tandem. Because of that, it allows us to deliver a great customer experience, a frictionless process, high scalability, and keep headcount well. Right now, our biggest expenses have been legal and engineering, as you can imagine. It's a technology company, but legal because we invest heavily in making sure that we do everything right and by the book. Also, that our partners do things right by the book. As you know, the property management space has some instances where people have more of a cavalier or cowboy type approach that works until it doesn't. For us, we have ambitions to be a very large company and we operate in a highly regulated space. It's non negotiable for us to run into issues on the regulatory front or have our partners run into those issues. We take that very seriously and focus on in making sure everything is done the right way. Jason: That makes sense. The number one challenge when it comes to any solution or software or third party service is adoption. It's how easy is it for them to adopt this and use. If adoption is a challenge, then it's not going to work. It's not going to grow. People are not going to use it or it's going to be confusing or frustrating.  I'm a big Apple fan. Apple made adoption very easy. My AirPods, I just hold them out, open them up, my phone just show them on the screen, and they connect. It was magic, it's easy, I didn’t have to fill around weird Bluetooth settings or hold down buttons. What you're saying makes a lot of sense.  You've mentioned that it's easy for the consumer or for the property manager. One challenge that I see a lot of firms run into is when you're servicing an audience that's servicing that same audience. You almost can become competitors with them. How do you negotiate that? How does the property manager still have a competitive advantage against them just working with you directly? John: I guess, education, awareness, and understanding. People [...] this in massive market. People don't even know about this product. One parallel I draw frequently is pet insurance. I’ve got a pet, I’ve got a dog who's five now. I have pet insurance that I pay $70 or $80 a month. They haven’t got a good plan because the vet at the time said, "Hey, you should consider pet insurance if there's ever an issue." To me, the asset there is the pet. A little bit different than a rental property, maybe not as emotional as a rental property would be. They said, "Maybe you should look at this." It's a similar thing as what you're seeing happening in the property management space. Property managers are the fiduciary, the trusted advisor to the asset and the asset owner, which is the landlord or the small rental property owner who's contracted the property manager for their services. If they can be introduced to this product, it's for their benefit.  We don't have a big direct push. We're not looking to go after single family rental landlords directly. Our entire business model is predicated on partnerships. Based on our analysis, there's roughly eight million rental units in the US managed professionally. We've love to see that grow larger. Those are also, for us, we believe the best risk. As I touched on earlier, we believe strongly that property managers are better at picking tenants, have an established processes and procedures in getting bad tenants out, and they can get units rented more quickly. Jason: Which lowers your risk as an insurance provider. John: Correct, which results in better outcomes from the underwriting perspective.  Jason: Okay, makes sense. Your interests are aligned directly with property managers. They're your focus.  John: Yes. They are our focus. We just did a giveaway today to property management conference for people that could enter. We view property managers as our partners. Again, the reason I mentioned some of our competitors earlier because the rising tide lifts all boats. We want to see everyone do well, we want to see landlords have access to the solution so they get better outcomes, and we want to see property managers to be able to benefit from this as well.  Jason: Yeah, I love it. I believe that too. I have said before, rising tide raises all ships, but sometimes the bar is so low in property management in some areas and in some markets, that I don't think every ship's going to rise. Some have too many holes and are going to sink, but that's okay. John: That's right. That's Darwinism. Jason: Right, survival of the fittest. What are some of the most frequently asked questions or concerns that property managers are asking you or have been asking in sales conversations? So that we can make sure we address them here on this show. John: A lot of things that a lot of property managers ask is simply how it work. We have an FAQ section on our website and we can share the link on it. "How does it work?" "Why does this exist?" "How can no one else is doing is?" As I catch on, this is the third time I'll mention SureVestor, Rent Rescue, and others. The awareness is growing and that's what the biggest challenge is for all of us in this space is awareness that these types of solutions are available. This isn't like rental insurance or pet insurance. Pet insurance, I guess, is now becoming widely adopted, but people don't know about it and don't understand it. Most of the reactions we got is, "Wow, this exists? This is great. How does it work?" "Wow, that's inexpensive. This makes a lot of sense." It all depends on the property address, the rent amount, and the pricing. Jason: For anyone that's confused, let's just explain the difference between renter's insurance and rent default insurance. John: Renter's insurance covers the renter's possessions and liability to the landlord, generally speaking. It's paid for by the renter and they're doing it, so if there's a fire in the unit, they're not covered from the landlord's policy. Their possessions are gone. The landlord gets the unit rebuild, the house rebuilt, but they don’t receive anything. Now with renter's insurance, then we get some coverage for that.  From the landlord's perspective, if the renter has renter's insurance, they have a guest over, they slip and fall, and break their leg, it protects the liability to the landlord for them getting sued from that slip and fall. That's renter's insurance. Rent default insurance, it depends on the program. Different people, different features. Generally speaking, it covers loss of rent due to tenant skips, eviction, and tenant nonpayment for whatever reason. Jason: Sometimes, we have to make sure things are at an 8 year old level so that everybody gets it.  John: I generally need things at an 8 year old level to understand.  Jason: Right. Most entrepreneurs do because we're just so damn impatient at paying attention to things sometimes.  All right. We talked about how it works, why is anyone doing this. Any other frequently asked questions that people are concerned about? John: "What's the catch?" generally. Insurance companies, for better or for worse, generally don't always have the best reputation for making it easy to make claims, et cetera. That's another thing. Some people want to see the policies and see things in that nature.  Again, the big thing is people just don't understand these types of products exists. That's why we're out there educating the market and letting people know that there are these types of coverages available and you can get the coverage to these types of risks.  Jason: Let's touch on the benefits for a property management business in having this in their repertoire of services and how this can help them sell and close more deals, give them the competitive advantage, maybe. John: What do you see is property managers are now looking at this and some are saying, "I'm just going to include it in all my plans," and say, "This makes a lot of sense.” Now, we've got a differentiator. All of my property management packages include three months of rent default insurance if the tenant goes bad. They're out there marketing and saying that it includes it. Others are saying, "This is interesting. How can we offer this and earn some B revenue?" The only way it works, as I touched on earlier with compliance, is you can't get paid for the sales, solicitation, negotiation of insurance, unless you're an insurance producer. You can do other things such as marketing fees, et cetera, but you can't make conditions on the sale, solicitation, negotiation, and insurance. That's why we spend so much to make sure that anything we do, anything our partners do in partnership with us, is fully vetted and above board. We make sure everyone stays on the right side of the rules. Jason: Do they become somewhat of an insurance agent? Or you're just laying that all together? John: No. They do not become insurance agents in any way, shape, or form unless they've got an insurance agent license. Then, they could be an insurance agent, obviously.  Jason: Okay. John, it's great to see an entrepreneur doing something that's impacting the industry. I believe these products are going to have massive ripple effect in the industry. They're going to create a lot more safety and certainty in the property management space. It's going to lower the risk. It's going to lower the pain threshold for landlords to trust somebody else to manage their properties. It's going to protect all the parties involved and that means it's going to help the industry grow. If Australians, somebody said their markets are any indicator, it seems like these types of products help these markets grow significantly in a relatively short period of time, over a decade. They've grown phenomenally. I heard stats like Australia's grown through 25% in a decade. Largely, they claimed that it was connected to that. I don't know if that's accurately or true, but if that were true and the industry—single family residential—were maybe about 30% are professionally managed, that almost be our industry doubling here in the US. I don't know that there's enough companies here in the US right now to handle that level of growth. That would mean we need to double the amount of companies or we need to double the size of every company that exists. Something in between that. John: Or let's double the size of every company that exists. That'll be a good outcome for everyone. Jason: Yeah. Regardless, I want to make sure that we've got the best. Let's raise the tide. I appreciate that you're seeking to raise the tide. I think collaboration over competition is what builds market, it's what builds the category. It's always important to build the category before you try to build the individual brand. That's Marketing 101, everybody.  Property management is in the same boat. Property management has very low awareness, in general, here in the US and right now, we've got a lot of people going around something in their chest, trying to fill their individual brand. We need to build the category first. There's a lesson for the industry to take away from what you've mentioned and what's going on in what you're doing, so I appreciate that. John: NARPM’s done a good job trying to get the industry moving in the right direction. People like you and a lot of others that are trying to educate and build awareness are very helpful as well. It's great to see everyone working together in some way, shape, or form. Jason: There's no scarcity in property management. There just really isn't. There's 70% in single family residential that are self-managing right now. That does not indicate scarcity. In certain channels of marketing, there is a lot of scarcity because everybody's doing the same stuff, there is scarcity. John, I appreciate you coming in the show. How can people get in touch with Steady and learn more about this? John: They can go to the website www.steadymarketplace.com or shoot me an email john@steadymarketplace.com. Jason: Perfect. John, I appreciate you coming on the show, I appreciate what you're doing, and I wish Steady success. John: Thank you, Jason. Thanks for having me. Jason: Check them out at steadymarketplace.com. If you are, for some reason, not getting the growth that you want, you're growth is good, but you want to pour a little gasoline on that fire, if you find that you're getting a lot of your business lately from word of mouth, and from the trust that you built in the marketplace, I would love to pour gasoline on that fire. That's what DoorGrow specializes in, optimizing your warmly funnel and optimizing your business for more organic growth, which is a lot less expensive than showing up tens of thousands of dollars a year towards pay per click, SEO, and everything that everybody is competing and already doing.  Like I said, I don't believe there's scarcity in the industry, but I believe there's false scarcity that's been created by marketers, and you can avoid that. For those who can't see, I'm wearing my "SEO won't save you" shirt. A lot of people are relying on SEO to save you. Don't get me wrong, SEO is great. If you have the top spot in Google, that's great to have search engine optimization. But there are things that are better than having the top spot in Google like being the most trusted company in your market. Our whole system is focused on building trust for your brand, for your business, and helping you to go after that blue ocean where there's all that business available; that 70%. I appreciate John being on the show. Until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone.  

Are you tired of dorm food and want to avoid the mad rush of finding a place to live off campus before next semester? There’s got to be an easier way for students to rent houses and apartments. It’s a problem that many entrepreneurs have tried to solve.  Today, I am talking to Dave Spooner of Innago. There are few incentives for landlords to digitize their rentals. Landlord demand for a listing platform is low, but there definitely is high demand for better tools to effectively manage and communicate with tenants.  You’ll Learn... [02:50] Tenant Management Software: Making landlords lives easier with online rental payments, tracking payments, basic accounting, lease signing, and tenant screening.  [04:14] Understanding Innago: Flexible, effective, simple, and intuitive software for landlords and property managers.  [06:05] Learning Curve: Competitors’ software requires expertise and certification. [07:32] Who wants to waste time adopting ugly software?  [08:58 #1 Priority: Intuitiveness in software; speed is love language. [10:20] Different portals for different people to be more productive. [12:16] Find balance, and avoid too fast feature creep. [13:14] Possible future integration with Zapier and other third-party tools? [14:22] FAQs: Access permissions and pricing for landlords and tenants. [17:25] Innago offers unique and unmatched level of support. Tweetables Innago software is flexible, effective, simple, and intuitive. You shouldn't need a certification to use property management software. Choose features that matter, and get the biggest bang for your buck.  Big believers in early success begets future success.  Resources Innago Buildium AppFolio Propertyware Rent Manager.  Jason Fried of Basecamp Zapier 1099 Form Freshdesk HubSpot Intercom DGS 62: Property Management Accounting with Taylor Hou DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to another DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the unique challenges, daily variety, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses, and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change the perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show.  Today's guest, I'm hanging out here with Dave Spooner of Innago’s. Dave, welcome to the DoorGrow Show. Dave: Hi Jason, thanks so much for having me. Jason: It's great to have you. Dave, we always like to get into our guest first, help us understand who Dave is, and how you kind of got into the space that you're in, and give us a little background. Dave: Yeah, absolutely, I'd be happy to, and thanks for the intro. I graduated from university in 2013. I kind of already had that entrepreneur spirit. Me and a couple other folks got together and we wanted to solve the problem of finding a place to live. We're not the first people to try to solve it, and I'm sure we won't be the last to try to solve it, but we want to make it easier for students to rent houses and apartments off campus. A lot of those markets are still mostly or fully offline, and there's usually a mad rush to try and find a place to live. We recognize those issues and we tried to solve them. As we were going about doing that, we kind of quickly realized that there's not a lot of incentives for landlords to digitize their portfolio. There's not a lot of incentives for landlords in student housing to really do a whole heck of a lot, but helps the students out because they're already going to fill other properties, which is really high occupancy in student housing.  We kind of pivoted, and listened to the market, and realized that there wasn't a huge demand on the landlord side for this listing platform, but there was a lot of demand for better tools to manage tenants, and better tools to manage and communicate with those tenants, and to manage their businesses. That's kind of how I got my foundation. I worked on that listing platform for a few years, learned a lot about the market, and then myself and the CTO of that company started and founded Innago in 2017, and we've been hard at work trying to make lives easier for landlords ever since. Jason: How do you make lives easier for landlords? Dave: Innago is tenant management software, and we call it tenant management software instead of property management software because we really believe that the focus should be on managing tenants, managing those relationships, and managing those personalities. Innago, of course, includes a lot of your classic property management tools like online rental payments, tracking payments, basic accounting, online lease signing, tenant screening, etcetera. But at its heart, it's a communication platform. It's something that makes it easier to interact with and manage those tenants. We believe that having that, having that foundation enables landlords to become better landlords, and property managers become better property managers. Jason: I haven't heard of the software before, is this something that there's a good amount of property managers already using? Is this geared towards landlords, or is this geared towards property management businesses? Help me and the listeners understand Innago here. Dave: Yeah, absolutely. We work with both. We work with landlords as small as one unit, and landlords in the thousands of units. The software is really flexible, it’s effective, but it's also simple and intuitive for somebody who just owns some properties on the side, works a normal nine-to-five, and then manages at nights and on weekends, and for a landlord or property manager that's fully dedicated. We work with both property managers and landlords. We predominantly work in the residential space. We do a lot of student housing landlords, given my background, and my partner's background. We also have some commercial landlords as well. It's a really powerful, and flexible tool, and we work with all sorts of different clients. Jason: Cool, that's exciting. Help people understand, because a lot of the listeners in our audience probably already have a property management software, I mean, probably likely. They're probably already with Buildium, AppFolio, Propertyware, maybe Rent Manager. They're probably with one of these guys. But nobody's ever fully happy with their property management. Dave: Right, of course. Jason: So help those listening, how can they see where you fit into the market in relation to these? Dave: Well, yeah, it's funny you say that. I was actually listening to one of your earlier podcasts with Taylor, and he has the accounting services, the consulting accounting services, and one of the things that he mentioned, they work exclusively with AppFolio users, and kind of what they said is, “We only hire people that have worked at AppFolio, and we will only work with AppFolio at this stage because that's the only thing that we're comfortable with,” because it's this monolithic behemoth that you need expertise to even navigate, right? Jason: Right. Dave: That's definitely true for AppFolio, and it's true for a lot of the other software. There's a huge learning curve there. The first time we hire somebody on Innago, we always sit them down, and we jump on LinkedIn, and we do a little exercise, or research the companies. We're not looking for employees of those companies, or even their company page, we’re actually looking for employees at property management companies that their job title, their role is like the AppFolio expert on T, because you need certification to understand how to use it. That was kind of the initial kernel Innago came out of is, you shouldn't need a certification to use property management software. It should be like picking up Gmail for the first time, or picking up iPhone for the first time. It should be intuitive, and simple, and elegant, and powerful, and flexible to work with a lot of different users in a lot of ways. That's really our difference, in the way that we're approaching the market, putting a lot of time, and thought into the features, and the way that they interact, and the way that the user interacts with those features. We're really proud of the features that we do have. It is an ongoing product, and we're constantly adding more. I think for a lot of property managers, and landlords on the higher end, they're going to find at this stage that it might not be a perfect fit, but for those folks with small to mid size portfolios, it's got a lot of really great stuff that it will work well for them. Jason: Yeah, I'm in total agreement. When it comes to software, the number one challenge tends to be adoption, and ease of use is right there. If something is intuitive, that's the biggest challenge, and hurdle. Dave: Right. Jason: I don't even like them using software that's ugly. Dave: Right. Jason: I just can't bring myself to do it. Maybe it's the designer in me. I don't know, but if I'm going to be living in something, I don't want it to be ugly. That's why I use Apple products because they just… Dave: Right, absolutely. Clean design. Jason: I was around my mom just yesterday, and she had a computer and she was like, “I clicked on Chrome, and it's not loading, and nothing's happening coming up,” and I'm like, “I don't know, that's a PC. I've never had that problem on a Mac.” I just don't have that problem. I just think it's funny. I was like, “I don't know, good luck.” Dave: Yeah absolutely, and a lot of property managers and landlords—many are very tech savvy, there's also many that aren't so tech savvy. It's equally, if not more important, to have something that's not incredibly complex, and incredibly challenging, and opaque, and difficult to enter into. Jason: I'm incredibly tech savvy, and I probably could’ve figured out my mom's computer thing, but it probably would’ve wasted an hour or two of my time and I don't want to waste time figuring out my software at every step of the turn and teaching my team members how to figure out software at every step of the turn. Intuitiveness in software is my number one priority. A lot of people build their whole set up internally in their business, trying to find one piece of software that can do everything, and it's usually really awful at everything in a lot of instances, instead of finding the easiest, and best, and fastest tools. Speed is my love language, I think in business, and I want it to be fast, and want it to be simple, and intuitive. I love that that's kind of a foundational goal with your software, because I don't believe that any of the other property management software, that was their foundational goal, ease of use, and to be intuitive. If it was, they've gotten long far away from it. Dave: Right, yeah, I think you're right. Jason: Yeah, and some are much worse than others, and some of them, they can do everything. They're like the ultimate Swiss army knife. Like I've joked in the past, you're not going to see a handy man carrying around a multi tool to try and do all this hard jobs. Dave: Right. Jason: He's going to have a nice tool box with the best tools. The software’s more intuitive, the software is really easy for people to use, and now you're saying on all parties for like the owners, they want to maybe check reports, is there an owners portal? Dave: There is. Jason: Tenants that want to pay rent, and do their stuff, there's tenant portal. And then for the property manager, they can manage and see their portfolio pretty easily, and know what's available, and vacant. Does this have marketing stuff connected to it yet for listing, and the getting the properties out there in the marketplace? Dave: Yeah, great question. We do not currently have marketing. We plan to roll that out, but as you mentioned, I think one of the problems that's happened with other software packages, the feature creep went too fast. They wanted to get all the features that any landlord could ever ask for out as quickly as possible, and that has not been our approach. We have said let's do this methodically, let's think about ways to integrate this into the way that the rest of the software works. Let's make sure that it's easy to use. We are constantly adding features but we're not necessarily rolling out everything that everybody wants, all at the same time. Market syndication is what we call it. The marketing piece is definitely on its way, but it'll probably be another three or fours months before we have that out there. Jason: Yeah, feature creep is a real issue. I'm a big fan of Jason Fried. He's the CEO of Basecamp. I got to hang out with him on a Skype call for 90 minutes. He cut my staffing costs in half overnight, no doubt. I'm a big fan of him. By saying he cut my staffing costs in half, I should say he doubled our productivity. I didn't just fire everybody. We just became that much more productive because he helped me understand how we had so many interruptions, we had so many things that weren't intuitive, and he changed how we communicate as a company. He has a similar philosophy when he talks about creating their softwares. Basecamp doesn't do a whole lot compared to a lot of other software, it’s pretty limited in its feature set, but it's consistently always at the top of the tools and resources people mention for project management even though I really don't believe Basecamp is a project management tool, I believe it's a communication platform for internal communication, that's how we use it. Everyone's going to ask for features, you have to really be picky in choosing about what are the features that are really going to matter the most and get the biggest bang for your buck and really make a difference without it becoming overly crazy, too cumbersome, unintuitive, and difficult to do. There's always that balance of managing all of the features.  Do you see that you guys will be doing any sort of Zapier integration so that people can create zaps and start connecting and integrating with third party tools? No software has come out with this yet. Dave: Yeah. That’s a really good idea. That is not our road map but I love Zapier. We use it for all sorts of other things, whether it's connecting Wordpress to HubSpot or whatever. It’s a really cool platform. That’s an interesting thought. We hadn’t gotten that far. We might still… Jason: Add it to your list and be the first. I'm waiting to see who is the first property management software the adds Zapier integration because everyone's been asking for it. All these people want it connected to their automation. They want to connect it to their process street processes, or they want to connect it to whatever. I think this would be a really cool thing. Dave: We’ll let you know when we do. Jason: I keep throwing that out usually to property management software that I have on my show and I'm waiting to see who's the first to have Zapier integration. Some people call it [zey-pier], but I think [zey-pier] is weird because it creates [zaps], people, so it’s Zapier. You're not [zey-ping] your business.  What else should people know about this software? What are some of the most common questions that a property management business owner might ask that they're concerned about? Dave: Well, one you hit on was the sub users. Enabling not just the head property manager from accessing the platform, but also giving out who has access to which permissions, who has access to which features. Maybe it's Bob, you want him to handle these categories for these properties, or you want your property owners to log in and be able to handle it themselves. Jason: There's the ability for vendors to leverage and use the system as well? Dave: Not vendors, that would be like a maintenance person that you either have on staff or you have on retainer 1099 or whatever. We do not have a vendor portal at this time. That’s a big one and then the other really common question we get is of course the pricing because of the sector that we’re in, that's at the top of our base mind. Jason: Do you want to tell pricing now? If you're planning on changing, don’t. Tell them to go to your website. Dave: No, I'd be more than happy to jump into pricing. Now it’s pretty unique, we're 100% free to use for landlords. There’s no monthly fee, yearly fee, setup fee, there’s no contract. There's absolutely no cost. Everything that I've mentioned is included. Instead, when a tenant pays rent online, we charge them $2 for an ACH transaction. We charge them $2.75 for a credit or debit card, and that's it. Jason: Totally reasonable. I've been saying for at least over a year to people who have listened to some of my older podcast episodes that free property management software will come and there will be the day that somebody's going to offer it, just like people aren't paying for Gmail, people aren't paying for this sort of stuff and it's making money. It manifested, here it is. Dave: That’s right, we did it. It's 100% free for the landlord. Some landlords see the value in an online payment, they see it so highly to pay actually choose to incur a cost and we allow them to do that if they want to, but for most landlords 90% plus, they're not paying a dime to use Innago. Jason: Very cool, that's really interesting. This would be fantastic then for startup PM's, startup property managers. A question that my team would care about is for the rental listings, the vacant properties, do you have some way of listing the vacant properties in some web based fashion? If they're putting properties into their system, is there some sort of code that we can embed on a website to show their available rentals? Dave: Again, there's nothing on the marketing side just yet. Everything is cotntained within Innago but we certainly see the value in that. Jason: Maybe in the future then. What else should people know about Innago? Anything else you want to throw out there? Dave: Well, we offer particularly in our sector where you do have some of the lower cost platforms out there or some of the simpler platforms out there I suppose. Oftentimes, they don't offer any sort of support beyond a 48-hour email window. With Innago, we’re a little different, we offer full phone support. We also have embedded videos and help section to ease landlords along in the system as they get started and learn the platform. We’re really big believers in early success begets future success. We want to make sure that we’re hand holding for your first month, two months on the platform, and ensuring that you understand how to use it. You can use it effectively and can leverage it to improve your business. Once you do that, then you're off to the races and in really good shape. We offer a unique level of support that many others can't really match. Jason: What platform are you using for support? Dave: We use Freshdesk, and we use HubSpot, and we use Zapier to connect certain things to other things. Jason: Cool. We use intercom for anyone listening, because property managers need some sort of support desk too. Dave, this sounds really neat. How could somebody demo this if they're curious to check out your software and how should they get in touch? Dave: Yeah. They can go to innago.com and they can request access to a free account. We’ll get in touch with them shortly after just to make sure they're a good fit, that we're going to solve some problems for them. We don't want them to waste any time fooling around on a platform that is really not going to work for them. If they request access, we’ll shortly be in touch, and we'll get them into the platform, and they can start playing around with it. Jason: Where does the name Innago come from? I'm a branding guy, I'm always curious. Explain Innago. Dave: We like to think of it as a strong three-syllable word, that's about the extent of it. It's really kind of like Google or Yahoo, there's not a whole lot behind it. Jason: Okay. Maybe we’ll have to make up the story sometime together about it. Dave: Yeah. We’ve thought about it, but we'll take any suggestions. Jason: When did you guys launch this? How new is this software? Dave: We launched the company in January of 2017. We had the product out in the market, kind of like an alpha stage really in March of that year. We've been coming along ever since. As far as a product, we're a little over two years now. Jason: Awesome. How many companies are using this right now? Dave: We have thousands of landlords on the platform and it's growing every day. I would nail that hard number, but it probably changes by the minute. Jason: Yeah. It's probably pretty tempting and pretty easy if it's free. I would imagine you guys will have some success and you guys are making enough money you think to stay healthy just through the transactions? Dave: Yeah. As you know, there's a lot of landlords out there. The majority of them are still self managed or not using any kind of software. There's a lot of tenants that want to pay online. Only about 30% of the market currently pays rent online. That's a huge giant blue ocean that’s ready to be captured. Jason: Yeah. There's a lot of blue ocean that are self managing. If you really want to super attract property management business owners, if you can figure out a way to help connect these self managers so that they can get that professional managers to take over stuff, and partner, maybe create some partners, I think you’ve got a winning affiliate business going on right there that’s good for your company. Dave: Absolutely. Jason: I know there's lots of people listening that would like to get connected to those that are self managing and work with them. Dave, super cool to have you on the show. I wish you lots of success. It would be cool to have you come back maybe in the future after you've come out with even more features if you’ve got something really cool to share. I wish you guys a lot of success with the free software. I've been talking about this for a while. I think it's long overdue. This is really great. Dave: Awesome. Thanks so much, Jason. I really appreciate it, my pleasure being on the show. Jason: Yeah, thanks for coming on. You heard it everybody, free property management software that is intuitive. If they are really intuitive, they're going to have a lot of natural success and growth, and if they're free, they're going to have a lot of growth. If they can make the numbers work which sounds like it would be pretty easy with all the transactions that are going to be occurring, it could be a game changer.  I think other property management software, they're a little bit greedy, and there's too much of that feature creep. I think this will be a competitor. It’d be interesting to watch. Let’s keep our eyes tuned, our eyes peeled and stay tuned to see what they do. Anyway, this is Jason Hull of the DoorGrow Show. If you are wanting to know if your property management website is leaking money because every website is probably leaking money. If you want to see that it’s leaking money because you don't want it to be leaking deals and leads anymore and you want to make more money and cash from your business, test your website out by going to doorgrow.com/quiz and take our DoorGrow Score Quiz that’s going to grade your website on how effective it is at creating conversions. Some of the questions are tricky. There's a lot of people taking the test and then make a bunch of changes to their website, some of them are false positive, so be careful if you're going to do that. Do that quiz and then maybe talk to our team and we can help you improve your website piece because I really don't believe that anybody's better at creating websites that make money than DoorGrow for property managers. Alright, we'll talk to all of you guys soon. Until next time, to our mutual growth.  

Do you overcomplicate things? Try to automate and systemize everything? Focus too much on drip emails, SEO, or pay-per-click (PPC)? Then, you’re missing the most important element in property management: Taking care of people and property. People don’t buy property management. They buy into a relationship with a property manager. Today, I am talking with Patty Young of Pearson Smith Realty. She describes how technology has its benefits, but building relationships and being there when someone needs you is the key to success and growth in the property management business. You'll Learn... [03:40] Grow a property management business by talking to people and being available on the phone; avoid complicated conversations by being confident and authentic. [05:38] Pain and pleasures of solving their problems; property managers close deals by asking more than talking. [09:07] Understand and categorize personality types; don’t stereotype, but figure out where they are to know how to make them feel better. [11:05] Why are you reaching out to get property management now? Determine what’s driving their decision making to reach out for help. [13:18] Create opportunities to start relationships by giving away a value and your free time to help people; find events to attend and places to volunteer. [15:52] Actively create business by being dedicated and disciplined; schedule time every day for prospecting. [17:53] Growing too fast isn’t always good; only take on what you can effectively manage and avoid sales lumps by creating consistency. [21:53] Ratio between level of connection and intimacy in sales situation and close rate is not about how many people show up, but how well you connect with them. [23:10] “Why don’t you like me? What made you decide to go with them and not me?”; ask for feedback to make your business better and leave the door open for the future. [32:33] Showcase your expertise and stay on top of what’s happening in the industry; don’t listen to people telling you things that aren’t from a real source. [39:08] Shift yourself with any prospect or referral partner into being an advice-giver; you’re in a position of authority and trust, which is what creates sales. [44:34] Be aware of applications that come in where person froze their account due to bad credit history and to bypass your system. Tweetables Solicit and close deals by asking more than talking. Be yourself, be a person, and listen. You can’t sit back and relax. There’s no relax. You’ve got to keep it going. Needy in sales is creepy. Resources Patty Young’s Email Address Patty Young on Facebook Crowdcast NARPM DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive  Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it. You think they’re crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, Property Management Growth Expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. I have a special guest. We’re hanging out with Patty Young. Patty, welcome to the DoorGrow Show. Patty: Thank you. I’m happy to be here. Jason: Patty, you are with a company called Pearson Smith Realty. Maybe you could give everyone a little bit of background on your experience in property management. How’d you get into this? Patty: Oh, good lord. Many, many years ago, I won’t give out my age, I’ve always liked real estate and just renting property and I was living in Montana at the time. I thought, “You know what? This can’t be that bad. Let’s try this out,” and so I met this fellow who owned a complex and that’s where it all started. Jason: Were those famous last words? Patty: No, I guess I’m one of the old people that started this long before we had cell phones and technology, Crowdcast and all those kinds of stuff so it’s really been interesting watching it grow. Jason: I want people to realize that you have single handedly helped out a lot of doors to some property management businesses. Tell everybody a little bit about your BDM sort of experience. Patty: I’ve done the franchise route. That’s where I met you many years ago. I did that and grew it and worked with a lot of people in the franchise, which is great, and I was able to do a lot of training. I’m a teacher by trade so I go back to—property management, I think, are protectors to some degree, and so the educating, teaching and trying to explain how to do things is just at the root of what I do. I got to do a lot of training in the franchise world of property management and just kind of kept growing and growing, and it just seemed to make more and more sense. Jason: While you were working at that franchise, I think you added maybe about 600 or 700 units to the franchise. Patty: Yeah, in about four years. Jason: I’m trying to help you brag about yourself a little bit in a relatively short period of time. I think everybody listening would be curious, what are some of the things you’ve done to help grow a property management business just as one of the big challenges? Patty: One of the big things is talking. You’ve got to be available on the phone and talking to people. All of this technology’s great, having drip emails and all that kind of stuff, but it comes down to the real relationship and being there when they need you. It’s not the SEOs. It’s not all that stuff; it’s about a real person needing real services and being able to help them when they need them. That’s the basis of what we do. Jason: Absolutely. I think, a lot of times, we overcomplicate things in property management and we think we’ve got to automate everything, we’ve got to systemize everything and we’ve got to create a bunch of drip emails, we’ve got to do SEO, we’ve got to do pay-per-click. We’ve got all these crazy things that we’re trying to implement and do, and then the challenge is that we’re missing the most important element, which, in property management, if you are a protector, you are taking care of people, and taking care of property. People don’t buy property management; they really buy into a relationship with a property manager, and I think we lose sight of that. Sometimes,we think, “I’m trying to sell my business to them,” and, really, they’re not trying to buy your business. What they’re trying to buy into is whether or not they can trust you to take care of their property. Patty: Exactly. I think people are not confident enough sometimes and they think, “I’ve got to talk, and talk, and talk,” and you never stop breathing and then you just become an elevator speech and everybody’s saying, “You’ve just got to be yourself. You’ve got to be confident, you’ve got to feel good about what you do in the service that you provide, and the rest comes.” It is crazy how complicated people make it. Jason: It would probably be true, then, to say as a property manager if you’re working on closing a deal or soliciting somebody to hopefully get their business that you need to be asking a lot of questions. Patty: You need to be asking more than you’re talking. You need them to talk. You need them to tell you where they’re scared, where you can come in to help them and where you can support their needs. That’s what they want to hear even though that’s not what you’re hearing them ask. Jason: What are your favorite questions to ask, then, during that sort of sales process or maybe even in initial conversations to really identify where they’re at and whether or not you can close that deal? Patty: I want to get a report going as quickly as possible. “So, tell me about yourself.” That’s kind of like the first thing, and they will start talking, and they’ll tell you, “Oh, I just had it and got it today. I’m moving to California. I’m coming up by you,” and he’s got to move, and he’s got this house, and there’s no way he could sell it because he just bought it, and you just let them go. They will start answering all the questions themselves when you ask them, “Just tell me about yourself. What time would I mail? How can we support your needs? What is it you need?” and let them ramble out. Once they ramble it out, in your head, you’re already knowing how to answer those questions that they—the holes in your life that you can plug. Jason: Yeah. They’ll start to help you identify some of their pain points. They’ll start maybe even giving you some clue as to what they want. Really, the two things you need to know to close a deal are, “What problems do they have that you can solve? What’s their pain?” and, “What do they want?” and that’s the outcome of solving that problem, the pain and the pleasures. If you have those two pieces, those elements, that can be really effective. I think, a lot of times during the sales process, if we get too caught up on our own voice and what we want to say to them, we miss really digging into that pain because the stronger we can really identify that pain and really connect with it, and the stronger we can really connect with what they want and really get clear on that, and help them be really hyper aware of those things, the easier it is to close a deal, but if we go, “Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,” and gloss over it and move on to what we feel like we need to tell them or we want to say as a salesperson, then what ends up happening is they start tuning out, they are thinking you’re just a commodity like, “You’re all the same. Every property manager’s the same,” and they’re probably heard that from most of the people they’ve talked to. “Well, we do this, and here’s our fees, and here’s how we do it, and we’re going to do this. We’ll come out to your property,” and they’re thinking, “Well, what about my problem?” Patty: Right, and you just sound like a recording like everybody else. No. The one I had today, he was asking about going to California. I said, “Well, great. What’s prompting you to move? Is it a job? Are you from there? Tell me about your trip to California and this new chapter in your life,” and then, all of a sudden, it all just comes tumbling out. In allowing them to talk and then, at the right time, knowing when to—and you’re not going to know until you know. Now, every human, luckily, is different and all that good stuff, and some people are your very Excel Spreadsheet-of-the-World, some are the technical people, some are more like, “Where’s the pictures?” or whatever, but you don’t even know what they are so stop trying to sell that until you even identify what it is. Jason: Do you feel like, over time, you’ve become really astute at understanding different personality types? Because what it sounds like what you’re saying is you’re taking some time to get to know them to build rapport, but it sounds like you’ve kind of categorized people a little bit in your head as certain personality types. Patty: I did. Jason: Give us some examples of some different personality types that you maybe come across that are different like this gentleman from California. How would you categorize him as different than somebody else that you might talk to? Patty: He was right to business. He doesn’t want any—he’s no fancy-pants. He just wants to know, “All right, am I going to make my numbers? Is this going to work? What is my involvement in this?” He was just so cute so when he talked about himself and told me about what his needs were, what he did for a living, and all these kinds of things. Every human is different. Now, I don’t mean to stereotype, but you have to figure out who your audience is. “Well then, great. Now I know what’s going to make this guy happy. We have this portal. Everything is there for you. You have electronic filing cabinets. You’re going to have monthly statements,” and then you go down what they’re really after that’s going to make them happy. If it’s a person who is more about, “Oh my gosh, I’m so worried my house is going to be torn up,” or if their baby, and they just built, and they picked out every cabinet and all that kind of stuff, it’s a different, softer approach because now you’re dealing with the emotional side of the client. So you have to figure out where they are because you don’t know how to make them feel better unless you know whether it’s making them anxious. Jason: Got it. Some people might be a little more on the analytical side, they might be a little more concerned about the numbers, you might have some people that are a bit more on the emotional side, maybe the property is connected to a family member or there’s some history there emotionally or there’s some sort of pain that they’re in, emotionally, that is connected to this. One of my favorite follow-up questions during the sales process after I initially connect with people and get familiar with their situation is to ask, “Why now,” which is a great question just to identify, like, “So you’ve had this property for a while. Why now? Why is this an issue now?” and then I get a whole different set of answers a lot of times. Why now? Why now are you reaching out to get property management? You’ve obviously had this for a little while and maybe you’ve been self-managing. What’s sort of driving this? Then you’re going to get even more insight they’re going to share with you, and that’s where, usually, I get the real pain answers, when I ask that question. I’ve heard anything from, “I have cancer,” or, “My family member just died.” To not know that information and to just keep plowing forward in the sales process almost seems insensitive sometimes when you get to the bedrock of what’s driving their decision-making to reach out for help right now. Patty: Absolutely. Now, this guy, obviously, he’s very excited. He’s got a position in California so he’s changing coasts. He’s not happy about having to pick up and move his family, but it’s okay because he’s leaving winter behind. He’s happy to get rid of our cold. We’ve got more snow coming. That makes him very happy so that piece of it is good for him but then with that move comes the hardship because his brother is here. You have that to go with. "Maybe I can just have my brother do it,” and that comes into play as your why. You’ve just got to be yourself, be a person and listen. If you’re just a person listening versus this façade as some person who’s just doing their job, walking in, you’ve got to be confident and you’ve got to care. Jason: All right. If you’re confident and you care, what are some other ways that you are creating opportunities to start these relationships? Because I think a lot of people are like, and I hear this all the time, “If I just get people on the phone, I can close them. I close everybody,” which usually means they’re closing all the word-of-mouth leads, which are easy to close, but the real concern they have is, “How do I get more conversations?” How are you creating opportunities to have these relationships instead of just waiting for them to come to you? Patty: You’ve got to put yourself in positions with other people so I do that through teaching. I’m giving away a value to a lot of different offices. I’m giving away a value. I do a lot of different speaking engagements for free, no charges, because, in doing so, then, one, they look at you as an expert, two, you’re willing to give your free time and to help people and talk with them, and you’ve just got to find places in your communities to rise above and be there to volunteer. I look at it as I’m a farmer. It took me a long time to grow up and figure out, “Where am I going to be? I’m a farmer.” I like to grow businesses. I like to grow relationships. What’s a farmer’s duty? There’s different kinds of farms. You can farm neighborhoods. You can farm HOAs. You can manage those if you want to. I personally like HOAs, and a lot of people do manage those. Are you doing more of a commercial management or residential? There’s different audiences. Are you looking for investors? You have to think somewhat here, and maybe you want to level up, but you’re going to have to set a plan to decide where you’re going to farm and where you’re going to get these people from. Then, once you do it, one of the duties or tasks, if you will, of farmer is you get animals now. Okay, property managers, what kind of animals do you want? Are you raising these investors? Are you doing accidental landlords? Are you looking for trustees? I’m one of them. One of our animal’s realtors. Some of those are big brokers, but I do go to a lot of real estate events and I do a lot of talking and a lot of chatting. You can do NARPM events. You can do realtor associations. There’s just so many different places that things are happening. You’ve just got to get out of the chair and be out there where the people are because they’re not going to find you in your seat while you’re still there talking on the phone. Jason: Right. I think one of the big challenges is that there’s so much opportunity in the property management industry. There’s such a high percentage in the US that are not using property management that are self-managing and yet you have so many property managers that are just looking over their shoulders back and forth and everybody else going, “What are you doing to wait for leads and wait for business to come to you?” They’re hoping that they can take money and just hand it to a marketer and suddenly people will just walk in the door and say, “Take my money.” You’re out there actively doing what a coach likes to do. You’re actively out there creating business instead of waiting for it to come to you. Patty: Eventually, it comes to you. Once you get enough to go in and you become—yes, you can get that going. Every day, you should have prospecting time, whatever that is. If you’re going to spend two hours every day or whatever it is you want to grow to or do, that’s your call. But you’ve got to have that dedication and that discipline to do it because if you don’t, then time just slips on by. Jason: Let’s create a little bit of perspective here. It’s taken you a little while, but when you start out in a new market, which you’ve done several times, and you decide you’re a farmer using this analogy and it’s time to farm, and you’re looking at the field and you feel like you need to get things started, how much time do you start spending in a week on prospecting or maybe in a day? Patty: Today’s world is so different from what it used to be. You’ve got meet-ups, you’ve got Crowdcast, you’ve got podcasts, and you’ve got all this stuff out there. So you’ve got to quiet the noise down, and you have to start somewhere. Don’t be afraid to start because that’s the other problem. Maybe you can just say, “I’m going to pick this neighborhood.” Okay, great. “In this neighborhood, I could do a little research and see that there are 5000 thousands in this development so how do I reach out to these people?” Okay, maybe you go and you meet the HOA people. They’ve got different events that happen so you’ll want to be part of all that. There’s usually some businesses nearby that you can be part of. Let’s say you’re going to take this area, you want to at least be putting in, at a minimum, at least three hours a day. If you’re going to do eight hours, let’s just say, I think there should be at least three hours of that as prospecting. Jason: So, probably about 15 hours in a week? Patty: Depending on how much you want to grow and how fast you want it to go because sometimes growing too fast isn’t good. Jason: Right, so then you’d be able to handle it, and manage it successfully, and deal with each new property to bring you on each—bringing on board and effectively. Patty: If you’re going to promise something, better do it. Jason: Right. Yeah. They can start farming neighborhoods. They can start reaching out. They can start hitting up some groups in the area. How much time are you spending now that you’ve kind of primed this engine in the business that you’re in now towards prospecting? Patty: Probably at least the same, if not more. There’s very little internet need-leading or any of that going on. At this point, I’m curating it. I’ve got people coming in and I talk to some, need to nurture some and all that kind of stuff, but you can never stop this. You can’t ever get happy like, “Oh well, I’ve got these three coming so I’m all good,” like a realtor will. “Oh, I’ve got these few commissions. They’re going to close them and I’m all good.” You can’t sit back and relax. There’s no relax. You’ve got to keep it going and, sometimes, it’s evening weekends or whatever it is and, of course, they’re seasonal in this, too, so you have to be watching that, but you can never stop prospecting because even if you’re happy and maybe your goal is a hundred doors and you’re happy with a hundred, they’re not going to stay with you. That rollercoaster’s going to start moving. Somebody’s going to sell. Somebody’s back. It’s constantly changing. Jason: Right. The sales has to outpace the churn, and the doors getting sold, and so on. I think you bring up a good point in that if you don’t have consistent prospecting and consistent lead-gen systems in place where you’re doing it consistently, then what ends up happening is, usually, it creates a sales slump, and those last for maybe a month to 90 days, typically, and they’re difficult to crawl out because you’ll build up the pipeline and then you have deals closing. If you get comfortable and turn that off, what you’re doing is you’re creating a problem a month or two months later in which you’re going to have a sales slump. You’re going to have less cash flow coming in and you’re going to have less new clients coming in, and it’s going to get quiet and then you’re going to hi ho Silver. You see salespeople, "Hi ho Silver," they jump on the horse and they’re like, “I’m going to ride this hard and I’m going to figure this out and do sales, sales, sales,” and then they come across almost needy. Needy in sales is creepy and then the problem is it starts to get carry for them. Patty: They’re panicking. Jason: They start to panic, and so they can avoid these sales lumps by creating some consistency even if they’re only able to dedicate a small number of hours a day or even just an hour a day, as long as they have some consistency throughout the week that they don’t just shut it off for half the month or shut it off for a month, they should consistently be able to generate leads. They have no control when those deals will really close. If they aren’t doing it, those deals won’t be closing. Patty: Yeah, they’re zero. In the classes that I teach and things, I might get one or two leads that day and then I don’t know what’s coming. You cast out the net and you see what it brings in. I didn’t want to do it. It was early December. It was a bad time of the year, but they really wanted me to come do this and I was like, “You know what? Absolutely. I’ll be there.” Now, I didn’t think there was going to be much of a turnout but you never know, and it turned out there were four people. I was like, “Whoa, that’s pretty cool. That’s all right. I could do four. It doesn’t matter.” Out of the four, I got three so who would’ve known? It was awesome. Even the lady that was doing the events, turns out she was convinced and she decided to give me her house to manage. You never know what’s out there and if you’re not out there, you’re not getting anything. Jason: I think there’s a direct ratio between the level of connection and the level of intimacy in a sales situation and the close rate, and so it’s not just about numbers. It’s not about how many people show up but, like you said, it’s about how well you’re able to connect with those people. The smaller the group, the more intimate that communication can turn, like if you’re working with one-on-one with somebody, I’m sure it’s a very intimate conversation. It’s personally about them and their pain that we talked about in the beginning. You get three or four people, it gets a little bit more broad. If you’re doing it through an entire room, there’s some authority there and that’s nice, but you’re going to then have to do follow-up to create that intimacy and create that connection afterwards, which is really important in those situations, but you then are getting to do one of the many sales and establish yourself as an authority in front of them. Patty: And you didn’t cancel. They never expected that you’re going to cancel and bail. That would stop you from getting the next gig. These are all gigs. We’re constantly going after these gigs. You cancel one and, “Yeah, do I really want to get out there? It’s 7:00 at night. Could I maybe do more work on the site? Yeah.” No, being in front of people makes a huge difference. I’ll tell you: Some people don’t think about it, but if you’ve gone on a meeting, you’ve tried and you’ve lost, you need to ask why. At this point, “Oh, that’s fine. I have another company.” “Okay, you tell me so I can make better my business. What is it that made you decide to go with them and not with me?” It’s a hard question to ask, like, “Why don’t you like me?” but you have to ask the question. “What was it? Was it my perfume?” But you have to ask because if they say, “Well, the other guy seemed more confident.” Now, you know what to work on. You need that constructive criticism, but most people don’t want to ask because they just want to feel, “Ah, they didn’t fit anyway. I don’t want them.” They may or may not but if you don’t ask, you never know and then you can’t improve. Jason: Feeling safe asking for feedback is a huge superpower. I feel like, for business owners, not being willing to palate or not being able to palate, digest, absorb or take in feedback is a dangerous thing. I honestly feel like I’ve built my company on thousands of failures, and so being able to get feedback, make mistakes and to keep moving forward as a business owner is huge. If you don’t get a deal, there’s some awesome feedback waiting for you that you could potentially gain from them so I love that idea. Sometimes, it’s just simple as just sending an email follow-up. “Hey, honestly, could you tell me why you went with this other company? You won’t hurt my feelings. It would help us. If there’s anything that you can do to help us improve, it’d be great,” and people love sharing advice. Patty: If you put it that way, “Look, I just need a favor. I know that you’re going X, Y and Z, but I would just so be appreciative if you can give me some constructive criticism. What exactly was it? Was I 10 minutes late and you didn’t like that? Don’t you like our pricing? What is it? What swooned you? What was it?” and maybe it was just, “I have no idea. I just like this guy better.” Okay, that’s fine. I’m okay with that, but if I don’t ask, I never know, and if you don’t know, you don’t improve. It’s kind of like those, “Listen to your sales pitch,” and nobody likes to hear their own voice and no one wants to hear why they’re not picking you but you need to. Jason: Yeah. If we’re really honest with ourselves, we really do want to make money and we really do want to know. We really do want to know why they didn’t go with us, and so being willing to be vulnerable and ask for that feedback can be really powerful. Surprisingly, when you do that, it gives you ideas. It’s like, here’s how to win more business, and sometimes it’s the things that they use. The deciding factors are so simple and they’re so simple that you’re kicking yourself. You’re like, “Really? That’s it?” I mention that on every call. It’s really simple. Patty: You're not going to know if you don’t ask. You've got to ask. Jason: One of my favorite tactics, though, if I don’t get a deal, is to lead the door open for the future. “Why’d you go to somebody else?” Great, I really appreciate that feedback. “If things don’t go well with this company, you have any trouble or this happens to this, we will still be here, ready and willing to take your business and help you in the future.” I love just leaving that door open. I don’t want them to feel like, “Well, they shut the door on me and they’re dead to me.” I’m creating that anchor for the possible future because I’ve had clients go with another company, they have happened exactly what I had explained to them would happen, and they come back and like, “You were right and I would love to work with you guys.” Patty: Because they’re not ready to hear it yet. They haven’t reached the point what you’re telling them. They can’t absorb what you’re telling them yet. Jason: They don’t believe it, they haven’t experienced, and they have to go experience that. They have to go try out the cheapest property manager, the cheapest website company or the cheapest whatever, marketing firm. They’ve got to try out somebody and test out stuff because they believe they know better and then, as soon as they realize that they don’t know better, they didn’t know something, something blindsides them or they’ve run into a snag that you had kind of mentioned or foretold, you’ve created this powerful anchor that they’re going to remember you the moment that happens. Patty: Yeah, and it’s great because—you have to leave it open to the point that they’re not going to—a lot of people don’t want to ask the question why they didn’t get it. It’s the same thing; they have to be comfortable to come back to you because you’re not going to say, “I told you so,” so it has to be very open. I always say, “Look, I’m a sounding board. If anything happens in the future,” and sometimes, they’re like, “I’m going do it myself.” You have those people in the world and you have those that go to the bare minimum bones. “I’m glad they can help you for that price. It’s not something that we can do, but if something should change down the road, if you have questions or something odd comes up, you’ve got my number,” and I sit there with them. “Can you put me in your phone please?” and I make them do it while we’re there. Otherwise, they’re not going to put you in there. You’re gone. They’re going to forget so I say, “Here, put me in there,” and I watch them put my number in there if it’s not already, and if it is already, I just say, “Just put, next to my name, ‘Call her.’” He’s like, “What?” I say, “Well, down the road if something comes up, you can say, ‘Oh, yeah. It says, ‘Call her.’ You can search and find me.” They’re like, “Okay?” but it works because they do. It’s kind of like when you have a little child that they’re just not mature enough to understand maybe how to tie a shoe or whatever. They just mentally can’t do it. It just can’t happen. These people are not going to be able to get where you’re at yet, and you’ve got to understand that and it’s okay. They will mature eventually and we’ll see what happens, but making them put you in their phone is like, “Oh, I’ve got to be in that phone because they’ll never find me if I’m not on their phone.” Jason: Such a little hack and I can see how effective that would be. Yeah. As soon as you have this problem, you’re creating this anchor. “As soon as you have this problem, if you run into this or if you run into any issues, I am available for feedback. You don’t even have to remember my name. Just put, ‘Call her,’ in here and, remember, call her and just plug it in.” You walk them through, making sure they get it into their phone. They’re going to do it. They want to finish the conversation, they want to be done and you’re hanging out with them or you’re talking with them. “Enter this into your phone.” Another tactic is you could say, “What’s your phone number? I’m going to text-message you right now and then you have my phone number. Enter this number in,” or however you want to do it and just make sure you get them into the phone. Patty: That’s the new Rolodex. Jason: Then, send them a follow-up email after that and say, “Just in case you ever lose my contact details, here is my information. Here is my direct number. Reach me if you run in any problems.” I love the idea you mentioned of being a sounding board. I think a lot of property managers are so focused on getting the deal, but what they really need to start with is being a resource. Patty: Yes. Yeah. I always tell them, “You’ve got my experience at your disposal.” You’re doing your research. That’s great. We all have availabilities on our computer to do some research. “Great. I'm planning to get a roof, I’m going to do some research,” whatever it is, and that’s all great. Hey, absolutely. I'll do the same thing. I said, look, if you hear something from one of the other companies that you’re shopping or something doesn’t make sense because you’ve got to peel back some onions to get down to—how you’re really comparing here, apples to apples, call me and I’ll answer whatever it is. There’s no cost to you. You’re just going to call me and ask me a question. Usually, they do. Maybe you’ve met with them or they’re not going to be moving in for six months or it could be one of these long nurtures or whatever, they’ll come up to something. They’ll go, “Hey, someone told me this but you told me that, by the law, it was this so what really is it?” I’ll say, “Oh, absolutely. Let me send you the statutes,” and, all of a sudden, you’re on top again because they’re constantly doing the comparing. Guess what: I’ve got the law that states this is what it is. Now, Patty wins. I like it when Patty wins. Jason: I’m sure, in some of those situations, you’ve gotten the deals just because you actually showcased your expertise. They gave you that chance. Patty: Yeah, it’s amazing. Even in today’s day and age, how much out there is just make-believe and fluff. “Well, our agent said this was it,” or, “This one said this is it,” and, all of a sudden, that becomes a new law and it’s not, and there’s a lot of it out there. Unfortunately, people get away with doing stuff and they keep doing it, but they don’t invest in themselves enough to continue the training, go to classes, just become smarter or at least be updated or something. Those agents, even when I’m working with them, I can look them up at our MLS system and I look and see when something starts–you get that gut feeling. I’ll look them up and I’ll just say, “Oh, okay. Well, they haven’t done a rental deal since 1997 so now I know how better how to work with this agent to make this deal get through.” Knowing what you’re dealing with helps. Jason: How much time do you invest in making sure that you’re on top of the industry, that you know what the latest laws are, that you know what’s up with property management in your state? How much time are you investing on a regular basis towards this? How do you stay connected to all of that? Patty: I’m probably obsessed with it more than most because if we’re here—my job is to protect your property and protect you. How am I going to be done if I don’t know what all this stuff is? Actually, I was on the phone yesterday with one of the attorneys and a simple little thing, as an example—every state’s different, but the pet addendum that’s used in our state does not have a sentence it’s needed to be there that says, like a tenant signing off, “Pet does not have a bite history.” One sentence, that’s all we need. That’s it. To give the insurance companies all of our emotional support, our services and all of this, they’ve gone away from that dirty dozen. They’re not barring any animals anymore. They’re going by bite history. Why doesn’t our farm have that? I’m like, “Hello? Boo.” I do volunteer with those associations. I volunteer on education committees, on the fair housing task forces, the forms committees, all that kind of stuff, so that knowing where we need just makes sure it’s pushed through, one. Two, finding out what they’re up to and what we’re going to get is another and fighting for what we need. If you’re staying in two and you’re involved in these organizations, it’s all volunteer so you don’t have to pay for this kind of stuff, but you volunteer in NARPM and other ones. I’m heavily involved in NARPM and trying to make sure all that’s going through, but you’ve just got to find out what’s around you, volunteer and get into it. I guess I’ve never really sat down how many hours it takes; some of it just comes up and you know there’s a need for it so you know the right people to call and say, “How do I do it?” Even if you don’t know, maybe you’re brand new, and just moved here, “Okay, who’s the wielder association? Who’s the property management companies? Where’s the NARPM groups? Where’s this? Where is that?” Some of it is research. You’ve got to find out how do you know and who do you know to call. You find out and then say, “How do I volunteer to get to the meetings?” and then, pretty soon, it just builds its way from there. Jason: I’ve heard you mention a few things. You’ve mentioned you talk to an attorney so you’ve got some attorneys that you’re connected to that you leverage as resource, you mentioned NARPM which you use as a resource, you mentioned real estate or realtor association and being connected to those, and then you also mentioned doing your own research. Overall, you said you’re obsessed, and I think it’s important that if there’s one thing you should be obsessed about as a property manager, it’s being able to effectively solve people’s problems. That’s this, is to solve some of these problems. If you are obsessed with doing it correctly and solving people’s problems, that gives you a lot of confidence going into a sales conversation, I would imagine. Patty: Yeah, and there’s so many chat groups, Facebook groups and all this, but the other thing, too, is make sure that you’re not listening to the players of the world. If I’m listening to people telling me things that aren’t the real source, then I’m learning it wrong, which is the only reason I teach and I have my own real estate school is I teach it right, but if you’re listening to the wrong sources, then now what? I had a call today from a fellow. He used to own a property management company, I’ve known him for years, and he was a meeting. I won’t say which company he’s with now. Anyway, he’s just doing real estate; he’s not doing management. He goes, “Hey, I thought, years ago, when we did this and this, we weren’t allowed to give out the credit reports,” and I said, “It depends on your contract.” He said, “Yeah, but they’re saying dah, dah, dah, ” and I said, “Who are you listening to? Wait a minute. Why am I on a speaker there? When’s the next meeting?” and that was my question to him. He goes, “Oh, absolutely. Okay, can you do April?” I said, “Give me a date, Baby.” When I find out and it doesn’t matter whose name’s on the doors. When I find out that there’s stuff happening that I know is incorrect, based upon me being around the right sources and the smart people, then I want to go fix it before they all start it because when we’re running these properties, we’re very real estate-driven. Everything is done through the MLS here, so I’m going to bump into these agents. I don’t want them doing it wrong because it makes my job harder plus I want their referrals. Jason: As soon as you identify that somebody is inaccurate in maybe landlord-tenant law or in process, you leverage that as an opportunity to go and speak to them, educate and to teach, which then feeds you referrals. Patty: I attack it. I’ll bring the cookies, I’ll bring the donuts, and whatever. Let’s go. Give me a date now. Jason: They have a question and you’re like, “You have an audience? I’ll come answer that question and I’ll give even more value.” I love it. Patty: It’s funny because it all just kind of evolved. When I was doing the franchise pieces, I met a lot of great people all over the world, literally all over the world. It was special over every country and it just became—they would have something come up. “Patty, can you give me a hand? Can you help me?” “Yeah, what’s going on?” and, because we were the same franchise, it was easy for me to answer a lot of questions so I kind of became the 911 or the 411 when they would ask questions. It was awesome and then I started training with them, too, and I enjoyed it. I enjoy fixing people’s problems. I’m one of nine children so I’ve got on-the-job training, you see. My dad’s an engineer and my mom’s incredible so you learn this stuff. There’s a lot of realtors here that have called me on different things and when they call or when you work with a realtor on something, if you are dealing with them, ask them. You’ve got to ask, “What do you guys do for training?” and they’re going to come back and say, “Well, what do you mean? All we do is a rental deal.” “I know, but you do guys property management in your office?" Are you asking these questions because there's another opportunity or a source. Most people get the deal done, they move on and don’t even think twice about it, but you can get feedback. Jason: Right. You’ll ask them, “How are you handling leases? How are you handling property management-related things?” and as soon as you notice there’s problems, you use that as leverage to say, “Hey, maybe I should come teach a class for you guys. Let me come share some ideas with you.” Patty: All I need is a little crack in the door. Jason: “Got it,” and then you’re in. It’s a magical and powerful thing if you can immediately shift yourself with any prospect or referral partner into the category of an advice-giver. As soon as you’re there, you are in a position of authority and a position of trust, and that is what creates sales. Sales happens at the speed of trust, and so you can skip right to the top simply by shifting yourself and positioning yourself into a position of being able to give them advice, and that instantly establishes you as a trustworthy person in their mind that you can now give them information and value. They’re receiving information and value and once you give them value, then it’s a lot easier for you to get value from them. Patty: Yeah, and then you're going to find out too—let’s say you go to their April meeting. Okay, you’ve done their meeting. “So, can I come back next April? When’s your next meeting?” That’s usually the one you can’t stop. It’s follow-up. Our laws in Virginia change every six months. I need to come here every six months so that I can keep you guys abreast of it, right? Because the brokers don’t want to do it. You have to make sure you’re cycling there every six months. Jason: Don’t just give up. After you do it once and you’re like, “Wow, I did this. Hurray!” you might be leaving a lot on the table if you don’t just simply ask, “Can I do this again? The laws are always changing. Things are always coming out. I’d love to come right back, and I’ll put you in my calendar and follow up with you, and let’s just do it again,” and they’d probably say, “Yeah. Well, this has been great. It’s been a good experience. We would love to.” If you don’t ask, then, odds are, they’re going to be focused on their own problems, on their own business, and their own things, and they’re not just going to go, “Maybe we should invite Patty back. I wonder what’s going on in property management law lately.” Patty: They’re not going to call you unless there’s a problem. It’s like when you go to a dentist. Before you leave, they have you booked. “How are you doing in June?” or whatever. They already had you booked for the next one. Before you leave that office or whatever groupie you’re doing, you should be already booking your next event. It’s a new gig. Get that new gig set up. Jason: Cool. Really smart. What do you do at these events to make sure that you’re able to follow up and connect with people after the event? Patty: Some events, I do registrations so that I have all the information. Some don’t so if they don’t, I need to sign up. I always give a raffle giveaway put their cards in. If they don’t have cards, I have index cards that they put all their information on it. If it doesn’t have an email and a phone number, it doesn’t count; they can’t be pulled. If they want the freebie, they’re going to have put them both in, and I want them both. I want their cell phone and I need an email. Otherwise, whatever. I can find the rest out in the internet as to where you live and all that kind of stuff, but it depends on the audience. If I’m with realtors, they love their toys. They’re going to hand me their cards. I do a lot of stuff, too, that’s landlord lessons so I do a series with landlords. I have all kinds of different people come join me, different partners I’ll partner with. If it’s just a landlord, they may not have a business card. Maybe they don’t want to give me their work stuff so I always have index cards and I have them already ready to go. Phone, email, name—boom. It’s all you need. Otherwise, you can’t win this $100-giftcard and everybody wants a $100-giftcard so in they go. Jason: Cool. You’re gamifying the whole situation a little bit here just to make it joyful. Patty: Yeah. People like to want to do stuff and they want to be told. They do, too. Kids will tell you they don’t but they do. They really do and adults do, too. Did you go to the DMV? I know we don’t have to go anymore, but when you did go, I always feel like a DMV person when I'm doing the W-9 form, is they would highlight that one spot. They highlight where your name is, your phone number and all that kind of stuff. It’s great so it’s like, “Okay, here’s what I need,” and they just look at you like, “Oh, she said so,” and they fill it out and they give it to you, just tell them to do it. Jason: Yeah, they do it. “This is what I need from you. Here you go,” and they just do it. They’re like, “Okay.” You’re like the Pied Piper. Patty: Well, one of the biggest compliments I ever got and I didn’t even know is my son has become a realtor, which is crazy and I told him that. I didn’t know he was listening. You’re in the car, you’re his mom, and you hear all this stuff, and you figure they’re not listening. They do listen. Anyway, I used to tell him—I’d be talking to someone and when I had papers that need filled out that I’m actually meeting in person, I highlight everything; it’s all ready to go. He’s eating his pie. “Here’s your pen. Follow the yellow brick road and everything is all done.” I heard him repeat that and I was like, “Oh my, gosh.” There we go. That’s one of the biggest compliments you can get, is when somebody repeats what you said. He goes, “Well, I told him to follow the yellow brick road.” That went on his first listing with him and that’s what he told the client. I’m like, “Yes.” Jason: Yellow highlighter. Follow the yellow brick road. Patty: Yes, that’s all I need, is these signatures. Jason: Patty, I think you’ve shared several cool little hacks and ideas. It’s really clever and I think all this is very helpful for property managers who are seeking to cultivate relationships which eventually lead to contracts. Are there any other recommendations or any other challenges you’re noticing among property management business owners that are struggling to grow that they should be paying attention to? Patty: One hack that I’ve seen that’s not good that is out there that they might—I don’t know if they’re aware of it or it’s happening near them, but it’s not for growth; it’s more for protection. A lot of people have identity theft. It’s all over. What a lot of people have done to save it instead of paying money to some of these companies is they’ve just frozen their credit. They’re not buying anything. They just freeze it. Therefore, they didn’t protect it, but what’s happening is we have people who are putting applications in our—there’s 5 million different software out there, and most people doing applications online actually agree with that. The application comes in and what’s happening is the people with really bad credit are freezing their credit. So when we pull the application and we run it, it comes up as, ‘N/A.’ We don’t see that they have 14 late payments. We don’t see that they have two charge options, three bankruptcies and all that kind of stuff because it comes up as, ‘N/A.’ People assume, “Oh, well, based on the birth date, they just don’t have enough credit established so it’s coming up as, ‘N/A.’” Not true. They’re freezing it so they’re bypassing our system, which is pretty smart when you think about it. It’s pretty slick. What I’ve done and everybody can do is just add one sentence to your application that says, “Have you frozen your credit? If so, please unfreeze before applying,” because if they’d lied on the application, now that affects them getting released, but it’s a pretty slick little smart way. I’ll give them credit for that because, by freezing it—and I can’t tell you how many people have gotten by with it because most owners—so, if I’m telling you, Jason, “Well, they don’t have any credit based on the score and they really don’t have any debt. They just haven’t established yet according to the agent but they’re making this much money and they’re going to come in and take care of your house, and the property manager’s telling the truth.” You might buy that, but if I tell you their credit score’s a 420 and they have 18 collections and all this kind of stuff, you’re going to say, “No way,” so I give them an A for effort. However, they’re not getting past us. Jason: Yeah, if they have a credit score of 420, what then… Patty: You’re probably going to say no. If I tell you, “N/A. They just don’t have any,” versus a 420, you might be willing to accept the, ‘N/A,’ but you’re not going to take the 420 so it’s a pretty slick little racket they’ve got going on, but the way […] one question in the application and then now you’ve got it. Then, the other part, too, is there are some people that we have a lot of military government being here near DC so we have a lot of people moving and they maybe forgot they’ve frozen it, and I don’t want to run the credit and then it comes up nothing then we have to go back again. By asking that question, if it’s a legitimate person that has done so, they can see on there, “Oh, wow. We froze it. We’ve got to fix it,” and they’ll fix it before they apply so it’s a good thing, but it’s been used in a little interesting hack, if you will. Jason: Got it. All right. Patty, all this has been super informative. I agree with you that property management is about relationships. People need to be getting out there, creating relationships, connecting with people. There’s so much blue ocean and opportunity available that’s just waiting for leads to come to you. It’s probably not a great growth strategy in general, and I know you’ve had phenomenal growth in all the businesses that you’ve been affiliated with because of these methods so I think everybody should pay attention and listen to Patty. If anybody has some questions for you or wants to reach out to you, how can they get ahold of you? Patty: My simplest email is realtorp@gmail.com or you can reach me on my cell number. I’m on Facebook. I’m on your staff, of course. I actually was thinking, Jason.When I was back with OpenPotion, did you live in Idaho or somewhere at the time? Is that where it was? Jason: Yeah, I’m in Southern California now. Patty: I know, but was it in Idaho? I want to try to remember. Jason: Yeah. Patty: Gosh, what year was that? Jason: I don’t know. A while ago. Patty: A long time ago. It’s so cool to be old enough, to have a relationship with someone like you back then, and you had the dreams and the ideas to do this, and then to actually see you do it is awesome. Jason: I appreciate that. I think we’ve probably known each other for about a decade, realistically. Patty: Gosh, we probably have. Jason: Yeah, because I helped my brother, Bryant, with his business originally, probably back in 2008. Patty: I was going to say ’07 or ’08, probably. Jason: And then you were one of the early clients, I think, that we’ve worked with. Patty: And you often have. Jason: Exactly. Patty: Back then, even. See? When you were just starting out on this. It was awesome. Jason: We’ve learned a lot since then. A lot. Patty: Yeah, it’s crazy. Jason: Like I said, a thousand or more mistakes. Patty: No, it’s all good. We don’t fall; we don’t get up so I’m glad it happened. Jason: Yeah, always learning. Patty, it’s been great having you on the show. I appreciate you coming out and I wish you continued awesome growth and success. Patty: And yourself as well. Thank you. Jason: All right. Thanks, Patty. Okay. Cool. Everybody watching this show, please be sure to check out the community that we have going on online, which Patty had sort of mentioned on Facebook, which is our DoorGrow Club. You can get to that by going to doorgrowclub.com, and if you are a property management business owner and you are looking to add doors and grow your business, that is an awesome community of people that are helpful. Then, if you want some help figuring out how to grow your business, you want to align and clean up your sales pipeline, clean up the major leaks that are limiting organic growth and preventing you from being able to really capitalize on a lot of the things that Patty was discussing, then reach out to us at DoorGrow. This is what we focus on. It’s helping you align your business so that you can create new revenue, create more growth, and maximize each door that you have. You can get to us just by going to doorgrow.com. I’m Jason Hull of the DoorGrow Show and until next time. To our mutual growth, everybody. Goodbye.

Bonus Episode: Geeks' Boutique presents Zack and Jason DO the Renaissance!!! Listen to a whole slew of interviews from Steampunk Day at the Kentucky Highlands Renaissance Fair in Eminence, KY on June 24, 2017. Features music "Steampunk Enough" by Mikey Mason ( www.mikeymason.com )and "Take it from Me" by Drunk & Sailor ( www.drunkandsailor.com ).

Ever wonder what it would sound like if I did a podcast with my award-winning-educator/counselor/pastor’s-wife/super-mom-of-two sister? Well, wonder no more, because here it is, the inaugural episode of the “What Would Jodi and Jason Do?” podcast, or as the hip kids say, the “Dub-dub-jay-squared-dee.” If you don’t like it, at least it’s not very long!... The post The WWJJD Podcast: Don’t Judge Us, It’s Our First Try appeared first on jason (r) anderson.