Podcast appearances and mentions of David Abram

David Abram is an ecologist, philosopher, and sleight-of-hand magician whose work sits at the intersection of phenomenology, linguistics, and our embodied relationship with the more-than-human world. Author of The Spell of the Sensuous and Becoming Animal, David is one of the most original and necessary voices asking what we lose when language severs us from the living land and what it takes to find our way back. In this rich and unhurried conversation, David and Aaron explore: Why tracking, reading wind, footprint, and silence, is humanity's original literacy, and what alphabetic writing cost us when it displaced that older way of knowing How oral, place-based cultures encode intelligence in the landscape itself, and why that wisdom cannot survive transplantation into a book The phenomenology of perception: how breath, texture, and animal encounter invite a kind of participation with the world that abstract thinking actively forecloses The animism underlying Indigenous cosmologies, not as superstition, but as a precise description of how attention actually works What it means to be a body among bodies, and why the ecological crisis is, at its root, a crisis of the senses How the alphabet quietly re-routed human attention away from the living world and toward a self-enclosed human conversation The rise of AI and what it means when the dominant intelligence shaping our language, perception, and knowledge is no longer rooted in a body, a place, or the breathing earth Practical, grounded ways to reawaken sensory presence, and why this is not a romantic retreat from modernity, but its most urgent frontier This is a conversation about the oldest question: what does it mean to be fully alive and fully here? And it arrives at exactly the right moment. Learn more about David's work at davidabram.org

Pourquoi un jour la Terre s'est-elle tue ? Pourquoi n'entendons-nous plus les voix de la forêt ? Pourquoi ne savons-nous plus admirer la beauté ? À ces questions essentielles, David Abraham, géophilosophe aux mille vies, apporte ici quelques réponses, évoquant notamment le rôle de l'écriture, qui nous a éloignés de l'expérience sensible. Il explore comment la culture de l'oralité peut nous aider à renouer avec notre capacité d'émerveillement et nous initie à marcher dans le monde avec sensibilité et gratitude pour sa sublime beauté. Hébergé par Acast. Visitez acast.com/privacy pour plus d'informations.

Abstract time and space sever our ties to place, rhythm, and responsibility! Or so argues the philosopher and ecologist, David Abram! 

Mason and Stephanie Hazel dive deep into the real talk about herbalism and healing in today's AI-driven world. They kick off by revisiting Stephen Harrod Buhner's "heart perception" and stress how crucial it is to actually feel that connection, especially as AI becomes more prevalent. Stephanie calls out the worrying trend of new herbalists losing touch with plants, often due to a lack of hands-on experience and over-reliance on ready-made formulations. They both hammer home the importance of sensory engagement—tasting, smelling, touching, and truly observing herbs—arguing that this embodied learning sticks with you way better than just theory.   The conversation shifts to the idea of oscillating between rational thought and embodied sensing, emphasizing that true wisdom in healing comes from blending both. Stephanie warns against getting too caught up in hyper-scientific jargon, suggesting that language grounded in sensory experience, like Chinese medicine energetics, is more accessible and effective. They link society's increasing disembodiment to mental health struggles and the addictive pull of digital spaces, offering practical tips for grounding yourself in daily life. Ultimately, they argue that AI's efficiency highlights the irreplaceable human capacity for embodied sensing and intuitive insight in healing, something no machine can replicate.   Timestamps: 00:00:34 - Heart Perception & Embodiment: Mason and Stephanie reflect on their previous conversation about Stephen Harrod Buhner's concept of heart perception and the importance of embodying this skillset, particularly in the context of rising AI. 00:01:05 - The Elder Tree Podcast & Stephen Harrod Buhner: Stephanie shares how their previous discussion inspired a tribute episode to Stephen Harrod Buhner on her podcast, The Elder Tree. 00:03:33 - The Decline of Herbalism & Lack of Embodiment: Stephanie and Mason discuss concerns about the dwindling connection to herbs among new practitioners, often due to a lack of hands-on experience and reliance on pre-compounded formulations. 00:07:20 - The Importance of Sensory Engagement with Herbs: Stephanie highlights the crucial role of taste, smell, touch, and observation in truly understanding herbs, arguing that this embodied learning is more memorable and profound than theoretical knowledge. 00:10:51 - Oscillating Between Rational and Embodied Sensing: They explore the dynamic interplay between rational analysis and embodied sensing in understanding herbs, emphasizing how a blend of both leads to deeper insights. 00:21:26 - Beyond Hyper-Scientific Language in Healing: Stephanie cautions against solely relying on scientific terminology in natural medicine, advocating for language that is grounded in sensory experience and accessible to the body, like traditional Chinese medicine energetics. 00:36:21 - The Societal Impact of Disembodiment: The conversation broadens to the wider implications of a lack of embodiment in society, linking it to mental health struggles and the addictive nature of virtual digital spaces. 00:40:51 - Cultivating Embodiment in Daily Life: Practical tips are offered for incorporating embodied practices into daily routines, such as mindful engagement with herbal supplements and spending time in nature. 00:49:10 - AI and the Future of Healing: They discuss how AI's efficiency in data analysis highlights the unique human capacity for embodied sensing and intuitive insight in healing practices, which AI cannot replicate. 01:07:44 - Yarrow and the Wounded Healer Archetype: Stephanie shares a powerful client story illustrating the "leap of insight" in diagnosis, drawing on the mythopoetic story of Yarrow to highlight the importance of non-rational understanding in healing. Resources Mentioned: Stephen Harrod Buhner's Work: Referenced for his concept of "heart perception" and sensing the metaphysical background of the world. The Elder Tree Podcast: Stephanie Hazel's podcast, which featured a tribute episode to Stephen Harrod Buhner. David Abram, Becoming Animal: Recommended for its exploration of grounding analytical thought and language into the senses. Stephanie Hazel's "The Wild Edge of Herbalism" Course: Mentioned as a way for practitioners and individuals to deepen their relationship with plants and their own intuition, with a "Plant Allies" taster option. The online course starts on August 14th. If you found this conversation insightful, subscribe to the podcast for more deep dives and share this episode with someone who needs to hear it!

Sight is the dominant sense in humans, followed close behind by hearing and perhaps touch. Many of us have cut ourselves off from the natural world by “gating” our senses, only using what is needed to navigate an urbanized, mechanical, constructed and conditioned environment, and we end up isolating ourselves, and leaving the more than human world behind.In times of ecological, political, and climate horror, I wonder at how we can remain connected with the wilder places we love? How do we engage with the land with all of our bodies and minds, working and practicing the gifts we have inherited from millions of years of evolution? To learn more :Plant Intelligence and the Imaginal Realm by Stephen Harrod Buhner. Bear & Company, 2014.Reconnecting with Nature by Micheal J Cohen, Ed. D. Ecopress, 1997.Spell of the Sensuous by David Abram. Vintage, 1997.

Springtime in North Carolina is gorgeous. It can't help itself. Perhaps it's oblivious to—or in radical disagreement with—the brokenness of our times. Either way, the azaleas burst into riotous bloom, the crepe myrtles frill themselves in defiant pinks. In the mornings, birds trade secrets across the creek, their calls carried on air perfumed with fresh dew on pine needles to the back porch, where I sit in my mother's rocking chair.This is the place where one branch of my family has put down roots. An invisible wheel exists here among us, with smaller wheels—wheels within wheels—turning persistently through the seasons. It's also the place where a beloved uncle passed last autumn, just as the maple outside his bedroom window flared into auburn light. In his final days, we watched that tree together and recounted long-forgotten stories. I remembered a visit to First Street in Rumson, when he swung me onto his shoulders and walked down the street. I remembered how the curves of his shoulders hummed beneath me as he laughed. How tall I felt then, how near to the canopy of trees; how the world suddenly seemed bigger and closer, and I, more a part of it—alive to everything, and everything alive around us.Memory can work like this—the way light filters through leaves or a scent pulls you backward. In a recent conversation with Krista Tippett, musician Justin Vernon (better known as Bon Iver) said, “I thought I was done being surprised… but there are things behind things behind things.” The layers accumulate, folded under the weight of time, only to surface in time, unbidden yet strangely familiar.Now the maple is green again, its leaves doing what they were made to do when touched by springtime light. Its roots drink in a soft rain. Some layers remain hidden, or slip away, only to circle back, as though time itself were not linear, but folding in on itself like fabric. And I think about how you have entered the mystery now, and maybe you are humming in some new, unknowable way.Practice—call it “mindfulness” or whatever name feels right—is an agreement to be touched by the world, by the nature of our aliveness. David Abram called it “a kindredship of matter with itself.” We learn to live in reciprocal communion, even unknowingly, and discover within ourselves gradually more tonality, more steadiness, more truth. When we plant ourselves in this moment, and notice the ways we are thirsty, and then return again and again, we begin to sense that our lives are not just motion or mechanism, but part of some deeper listening—not just hub and spoke, but spiraling motion.Hope, too, is a force of nature. It arrives unannounced. Here's another chance, another season. The word numinous comes from numen—a Latin term that means both “a nod of the head” and “divine will.” Now spring has found its fulcrum, and with a quiet nod toward resurrection, it invites us to reach for something like joy, whether or not we feel ready or agree with time's assessment.Springtime is not a promise. It's a presence. A tilt in the wheel. A shimmer in the unseen. A reminder that aliveness is not always sweet or simple—but it is, still, ours.Together, we are making sense of being human in an era of radical change. Your presence here matters. Thank you for reading, sharing, ‘heart'ing, commenting, and subscribing to The Guest House. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit shawnparell.substack.com/subscribe

If you love theater, art, or music, your eyes will surely have been delighted by the work of Es Devlin.She has created public sculptures and installations at the V&A, Serpentine, and Imperial War Museum, and outside at Tate Modern, Trafalgar Square, and the Lincoln Centre, as well as kinetic stage designs at La Scala and the Royal Opera House in London and monumental illuminated stage sculptures for the Super Bowl halftime show, Olympic Ceremonies, and large-scale stadium concerts, including Beyoncé, Kanye West, Take That, Billie Eilish, and many more.A major retrospective of Devlin's work was shown at the Cooper Hewitt Smithsonian Design Museum in New York in 2023, along with an award-winning book called An Atlas of Es Devlin— which Thames & Hudson have described as their most sculptural and intricate book to date.For this year's Salone del Mobile, she paid homage to the spaces of the Accademia di Brera with “Library of Light,” an installation that dialogues with the space, the visitors, and the incredible books of the Biblioteca Nazionale Braidense.The links of this episode:- Es Devlin's official website https://esdevlin.com- Maria Gaetana Agnesi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Gaetana_Agnesi- "Library of Light" for Salone del Mobile.Milano (2025) https://www.salonemilano.it/en/session/es-devlin-library-light- Beyoncé, "The formation Word Tour" (2016) https://esdevlin.com/work/beyonce- Gucci Cosmos https://esdevlin.com/work/gucci-cosmos- U2 at The Spere Las Vegas (2024) https://esdevlin.com/work/the-sphere- Please Feed the Lions in Trafalgar Square (2018) https://londondesignfestival.com/activities/please-feed-the-lions-by-es-devlin- "Five Echoes" in Miami (2021) https://www.dezeen.com/2021/12/16/es-devlin-five-echoes-labyrinth-chanel-miami/- The book "Becoming Animal. An Earthly Cosmology" by David Abram https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/318/becoming-animal-by-david-abram/

Nous apprendre à ressentir la beauté du vivant. Voilà l'une des obsessions actuelles du botaniste Francis Hallé. Il en fait un enjeu clé pour notre temps. Parce qu'il sait que la plupart des humains protègent ce qu'ils jugent beau. A l'automne de sa vie, Francis Hallé se bat, aussi, pour que naisse en Europe de l'Ouest une forêt primaire – c'est-à-dire qui se développe sans intervention humaine. Francis Hallé est notre invité, cette semaine. Son dernier livre : « La beauté du vivant » (Actes Sud). Dans son « A quoi tu penses ? », Martin Legros, rédacteur en chef au Philosophie magazine relit Aristote et Machiavel pour éclairer la fin du régime tyrannique en Syrie. Enfin, dans « En toutes lettres ! », la journaliste et écrivaine Juliette Goudot salue le retour des bimbos. La playlist de Francis Hallé : - La jeune fille et la mort de Schubert - Le concerto d'Aranjuez de Joaquin Rodrigo - Let it be des Beatles Choix culturels : - Pascal Claude : le film « Les Femmes au balcon » de Noémie Merlant - Martin Legros : « Comment la terre s'est tue : pour une écologie des sens » de David Abram à la Découverte - Juliette Goudot : le film « Vingt Dieux » réalisé par Louise Courvoisier - Francis Hallé : « Le baron perché » d'Italo Calvino chez folio Merci pour votre écoute Dans quel Monde on vit, c'est également en direct tous les samedi de 10h à 11h sur www.rtbf.be/lapremiere Retrouvez tous les épisodes de Dans quel Monde on vit sur notre plateforme Auvio.be : https://auvio.rtbf.be/emission/8524 Et si vous avez apprécié ce podcast, n'hésitez pas à nous donner des étoiles ou des commentaires, cela nous aide à le faire connaître plus largement.

In this episode, Daniel and Philipa discuss perception and language in a more-than-human world with cultural ecologist, Dr David Abram. David Abram is a cultural ecologist, geophilosopher, and the founder and creative director of the Alliance for Wild Ethics (AWE). His books include Becoming Animal: An Earthly Cosmology  and The Spell of the Sensuous: Perception and Language in a More-than-Human World. David is the recipient of various fellowships and awards, including the international Lannan Literary Award for Nonfiction, David recently held the international Arne Naess Chair in Global Justice and Ecology at the University of Oslo in Norway.Explore links and resources, and find out more at  https://www.thersa.org/oceania/regeneration-rising-podcast  Join the Re-generation: https://www.thersa.org/regenerative-futuresReduced Fellowship offer: In celebration of the launch of Regeneration Rising, we're offering a special promotion for listeners to join our global community of RSA Fellows. Our Fellowship is a network of over 31,000 innovators, educators, and entrepreneurs committed to finding better ways of thinking, acting, and delivering change. To receive a 25% discount off your first year of membership and waived registration fee, visit thersa.org and use the discount code RSAPOD on your application form. Note, cannot be used in conjunction with other discount offers, such as Youth Fellowship. For more information  email fellowship@rsa.org.uk.

In this episode of Called to Be Bad I talk with Sarah Werner. Sarah is an editor, writer and pastor living in Columbus, Ohio. You can find Sarah's full bio in the description. Sarah is the author of the book, Rooted Faith: Practices of Living Well on a Fragile Planet. In this episode we discuss Sarah's book, in particular the idea of Animism and how it relates to the Christian faith. We talk about how all of creation is alive, including rocks! And how connecting and respecting everything wild around us–is both biblical and beneficial to our daily lives. There is lots of talk of squirrels, birds, and of course chickens. There is special mention of divine pigeons, so watch out for that. Sarah's Bio: Sarah Werner is an editor, writer and pastor living in Columbus, Ohio. She is the Communications Coordinator for Central District Conference in the Mennonite Church USA and the leader of Olentangy Wild Church. She teaches ecotheology and biblical studies courses at PATHWAYS, a theological education program affiliated with the United Church of Christ. She has a Master of Divinity from Candler School of Theology at Emory University and a PhD from the University of Florida in Religion. In her free time she enjoys wandering in the woods and backyard bird watching. Click HERE for her blog.Resources Mentioned: Sarah's Book: Rooted Faith: Practices for Living Well on a Fragile Planet https://www.mennomedia.org/9781513813165/rooted-faith/Other books: An Altar in the World: A Geology of Faith by Barbra Brown Taylor  https://www.amazon.com/s?k=altar+in+the+world&hvadid=409960988344&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=1017117&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=14373506741575625760&hvtargid=kwd-11416552781&hydadcr=24657_11410751&tag=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_97d507hy7p_eBecoming Animal: An Earthly Cosmology  by David Abram https://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Animal-Cosmology-David-Abram/dp/0375713697Becoming Rooted: One Hundred Days of RecoSupport the Show.Follow us for more ✨bad✨ content: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/calledtobebad_podcast/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/calledtobebad Website: https://calledtobebad.buzzsprout.com/ Want to become part of the ✨baddie✨ community? Support us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/calledtobebad Have a ✨bad✨ topic you want to talk about on the show? Get in touch with host, Mariah Martin at: calledtobebad@gmail.com #ctbb #podcast #podcastersoffacebook ...

durée : 00:58:07 - Avec philosophie - par : Géraldine Muhlmann - Les catastrophes écologiques nous invitent à inventer un autre rapport à la nature. Le philosophe états-unien David Abram propose une philosophie originale. Mais sur quoi repose exactement sa philosophie ? - invités : David Abram Philosophe, randonneur, prestidigitateur et conférencier états-unien; Pierre Guenancia Professeur émérite de philosophie spécialisé en histoire de la philosophie moderne à l'université de Bourgogne; Anne Simon Chercheuse en littérature française, directrice de recherche au CNRS

durée : 00:58:18 - Avec philosophie - par : Géraldine Muhlmann - Les catastrophes écologiques nous invitent à inventer un autre rapport à la nature. Le philosophe états-unien David Abram propose une philosophie originale. Mais sur quoi repose exactement sa philosophie ? - invités : David Abram Philosophe, randonneur, prestidigitateur et conférencier états-unien; Pierre Guenancia Professeur émérite de philosophie spécialisé en histoire de la philosophie moderne à l'université de Bourgogne; Anne Simon Chercheuse en littérature française, directrice de recherche au CNRS

In this episode, Thomas and Panu discussed some real-world aspects of nature and our relationship with the natural world, including different values associated with nature and other species, such as scientific, ethical, relationship and  experience-based values. Thomas illustrated a spectrum of nature settings, from virtual nature such as art and images in the home, to nearby nature in our communities, to wild and protected places – with opportunities to be a cosmopolitan traveler between these contexts. The conversation evolved into a recognition of nature (in Finnish “luonto”) as an infinite set of processes and relationships, with nature settings being a doorway or threshold into the interconnectedness and interdependence of all beings. Panu and Thomas also touched on the concept of the “more than human world” (inspired by eco philosopher David Abram) and the need for “recollective practices” (inspired by ecopsychology theorist Andy Fisher) to connect with nature and counteract the divisive aspects of modern technological society.

Join us as Dr. Jeanette Banashak shares with us about a new certification program being offered in Outdoor Companioning that has come about as a result of her own lifelong desire to connect with the more-than-human world. Are you a spiritual guide or working in some form of service profession? Outdoor Companioning teaches us how to integrate the natural environment, both in our work lives and in our experience of life overall. Join us as Jeanette speaks about how engaging with the great outdoors can lead to building communities that are sustainable, equitable, culturally proficient, socially just, healing, and so much more.Additional ResourcesWebsite: Spiritual Guidance Training Institute - Outdoor Companioning TrainingBook: Belonging by Toko-Pa TurnerBook: Eco-Emancipation by Sharon R. KrauseHashtagsForest Bathing, Mindfulness, Deep Listening, Eco-Justice, Tree Equity Index, Eco-Activism, David Abram, Robin Wall Kimmerer, Thich Nhat HanhSign up for our newsletter here: https://foundrysc.com/about/newsletter

There are old folktales and legends of people who can become animals. Animals who can become people. And there's a lesson for our own time in those shapeshifting stories — a recognition that the membrane between what's human and more-than-human is razor thin. Human identity cannot be separated from our nonhuman kin. From forest ecology to the human microbiome, emerging research suggests that being human is a complicated journey made possible only by the good graces of our many companions. In partnership with the Center for Humans and Nature and with support from the Kalliopeia Foundation, To The Best Of Our Knowledge is exploring this theme of "kinship" in a special radio series. To learn more about the Kinship series, head to ttbook.org/kinship. Original Air Date: November 20, 2021 Interviews In This Hour: Reclaiming the fierce women who are shapeshifters — How a man turned into a raven — Shapeshifters, shamans and the 'New Animism' — Horror author Stephen Graham Jones on what our monsters say about us Guests: Sharon Blackie, David Abram, Chris Gosden, Stephen Graham Jones Never want to miss an episode? Subscribe to the podcast. Want to hear more from us, including extended interviews and favorites from the archive? Subscribe to our newsletter.

In this episode I speak to writer and filmmaker Sarah Thomas. Her memoir, The Raven's Nest, is a meditation on her time spent in Iceland, and explores how identity and language are interwoven with landscape and ecology. What does it mean to fall in love with a place, with its human and non-human inhabitants?  And how may we each do our little part in mending the world?  Sarah Thomas is a writer, documentary filmmaker, and traveller with a PhD in Interdisciplinary Studies. She is committed to work that explores, evokes and honours our entanglements with the living world. She has lived and journeyed from the Equator to the Arctic Circle finding stories in the everyday. Her films have been screened internationally. In 2020 she was nominated for the Arts Foundation Environmental Writing Award. She was longlisted for the inaugural Nan Shepherd Prize for nature writing and shortlisted for the 2021 Fitzcarraldo Essay Prize. Her ecological memoir, The Raven's Nest (Atlantic Books 2022), is her debut.  ICELANDIC WORDS FROM THE EPISODE:  Óvissuferð – a journey where you don't know what will happen Kvöldvaka – an evening gathering, traditionally to mend or do crafts while listening to someone reading aloud. Bergmál – echo (literally: language of the mountains) Tölva – computer (literally: number oracle) LINKS:  Sarah's website: ⁠https://sarahthomas.net⁠ The Raven's Nest: ⁠https://sarahthomas.net/the-ravens-nest/⁠ Book by David Abram on language and ecology: Spell of the sensuous: ⁠https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/319/the-spell-of-the-sensuous-by-david-abram/⁠ Ursula LeGuin's The carrier bag theory of fiction: ⁠https://otherfutures.nl/uploads/documents/le-guin-the-carrier-bag-theory-of-fiction.pdf⁠ MORE INFO: All episodes and more at ⁠⁠forestofthought.com⁠⁠ Support us on Patreon: ⁠⁠patreon.com/forestofthought⁠⁠ Share and subscribe. Find all available platforms here: ⁠⁠https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/forestofthought⁠ Our theme music is by Christian Holtsteen at ⁠⁠stoneproduction.no⁠⁠. 

On this episode, my guest is Nick Hunt, the author of three travel books about journeys by foot, including Outlandish: Walking Europe's Unlikely Landscapes. His articles have appeared in The Guardian, Emergence, The Irish Times, New Internationalist, Resurgence & Ecologist and other publications. He works as an editor and co-director for the Dark Mountain Project. His latest book is an alternate history novel, Red Smoking Mirror.Show NotesAwe and the Great SecretOn Focus, Sight and SubjectivityThe Almost Lost Art of WalkingPilgrimage and the Half Way PointWhat if Left of Old-School Hospitality in our Times?When Borders Matter LessHospitality and PainThe Costs of InterculturalityAsking Permission: On Not Being WelcomeFriendship, Hospitality, and ExchangeHomeworkNick Hunt's Official WebsiteRed Smoking MirrorEssay: Bulls and ScarsTranscript[00:00:00] Chris Christou: Welcome Nick to the End of Tourism podcast. Thank you so very much for joining us today. [00:00:05] Nick Hunt: Very nice to be here, Chris. [00:00:07] Chris Christou: I have a feeling we're in for a very special conversation together. To begin, I'm wondering if you could offer us a glimpse into your world today, where you find yourself, and how the times seem to be rolling out in front of you, where you are.[00:00:22] Nick Hunt: Wow, that's a good, that's a good question. Geographically, I'm in Bristol, in the southwest of England, which is the city I grew up in and then moved away from and have come back to in the last five or so years. The city that I sat out the pandemic, which was quite a tough one for various reasons here and sort of for me personally and my family.But the last year really has just felt like everyone's opening out again and it feels... it's kind of good and bad. There was something about that time, I don't want to plunge straight into COVID because I'm sure everyone's sick of hearing about it, but the way it, it froze the world and froze people's personal lives and it froze all the good stuff, but it also froze a lot of the more difficult questions.So, I think in terms of kind of my wider work, which is often, focused around climate change, extinction, the state of the planet in general, the pandemic was, was oddly, you didn't have to think about the other problems for a while, even though they were still there. It dominated the airspace so much that everything else just kind of stopped.And now I find that in amongst all the joy of kind of friends emerging again and being able to travel, being able to meet people, being able to do stuff, there's also this looming feeling of like, the other problems are also waking up and we're looking at them again. [00:01:56] Chris Christou: Yeah. We have come back time to time in the last year or two in certain interviews of the pod and, and reflected a little bit on those times and considered that there was, among other things, it was a time where there was the possibility of real change. And I speak more to the places that have become tourist destinations, especially over touristed and when those people could finally leave their homes and there was nobody there that there was this sense of Okay, things could really be different [00:02:32] Nick Hunt: Yeah.As well. Yeah. I know there, there was a kind of hope wasn't there that, "oh, we can change, we can, we can act in, in a huge, unprecedented way." Maybe that will transfer to the environmental problems that we face. But sadly that didn't happen. Or it didn't happen yet. [00:02:53] Chris Christou: Well, time will tell. So Nick, I often ask my guests to begin with a bit of background on how their own travels have influenced their work, but since so much of your writing seems to revolve around your travels, I've decided to make that the major focus of our time together. And so I'd like to begin with your essay Bulls and Scars, which appears in issue number 14 of Dark Mountain entitled TERRA, and which was republished in The Best British Travel Writing of the 21st Century.[00:03:24] Nick Hunt: A hyperbolic, a hyperbolic title, I have to say. [00:03:29] Chris Christou: And in that exquisite essay on the theme of wanderlust, you write, and I quote, "always this sense, when traveling, will I find it here? Will the great secret reveal itself? Is it around the next corner? There is never anything around the next corner except the next corner, but sometimes I catch fragments of it.This fleeting thing I am looking for. That mountainside, that's a part of it there. The way the light falls on that wall. That old man sitting under a mulberry tree with his dog sleeping at his feet. That's a part of the secret too. If I could fit these pieces together, I would be completed. Waking on these sacks of rice, I nearly see the shape of it. The outlines of the secret loom, extraordinary and almost whole. I can almost touch it. I think. Yes, this is it. I am here. I have arrived, but I have not arrived. I am traveling too fast. The moment has already gone, the truck rolls onwards through the night, and the secret slides away.This great secret, Nick, that spurs so much of our wanderlust. I'm curious, where do you imagine it comes from personally, historically, or otherwise? [00:04:59] Nick Hunt: Wow. Wow. Thank you for reading that so beautifully. That was an attempt to express something that I think I've always, I've always felt, and I imagine everybody feels to some extent that sense of, I guess you could describe it as "awe," but this sense that I, I first experienced this when I was a kid.I was about maybe six, five or six years old, maybe seven. I can't remember. Used to spend a lot of time in North Wales where my grandparents lived and my mum would take me up there and she loved walking. So we'd go for walks and we were coming back from a walk at the end of a day. So it was mountains. It was up in Snowdonia.And I have a very vivid memory of a sunset and a sheep and a lamb and the sky being red and gold in sense that now I would describe it as awe, you know, the sublime or something like that. I had no, no words for it. I just knew it was very important that I, I stayed there for a bit and, and absorbed it.So I refused to walk on. And my mom, I'll always be grateful for this. She didn't attempt to kind of pull my hand and drag me back to the car cuz she probably had things to do. But she walked on actually and out of sight and left me just to kind of be there because she knew that this was an important thing.And for me, that's the start of, of the great secret. I think this sense of wanting to be inside the world. I've just been reading some Ursula LeGuin and there's a short story in her always coming home. I think it's called A Hole in the Air. And it's got this kind of conceit of a man stepping outside the world and he kind of goes to a parallel version of his world and it's the one in which some version of us lives.And it's the kind of, you know, sort of fucked up war-like version where everything's kind of terrible and polluted, dangerous and violent and he can't understand it. But this idea of he's gone outside the world and he can't find his way back in. And I think this is a theme in a lot of indigenous people.This idea of kind of being inside something and other cultures being outside. I think a lot, all of my writing and traveling really has been about wanting to get inside and kind of understand something. I don't know. I mean, I dunno what the secret is because it's a secret and what I was writing about in that essay was, I think in my twenties particularly, I kind of imagined that I could find this if I kept moving.The quicker the better because you're covering more ground and more chance of finding something that you're looking for, of knowing what's around the next corner, what's over the next hill. You know, even today I find it very difficult to kind of turn back on a walk before I've got to the top of a hill or some point where I can see what's coming next.It feels like something uncompleted and then I'm sure, as I imagine you did, you know, you were describing to me earlier about traveling throughout your twenties and always kind of looking for this thing and then realizing, what am I actually, you know, what am I doing? What am I actually looking for?Mm-hmm. So I still love traveling, obviously, but I don't feel this kind youthful urge just to keep moving, keep moving, keep moving, see more things, you know, experience more. And then I think you learn when you get a bit older that maybe that's not the way to find whatever it is that you are kind of restless for.Maybe that's when you turn inside a little bit more. And certainly my travels now are kind of shorter and slower than they were before, but I find that there's a better quality of focus in the landscapes or places that before I would've kind of dismissed and rushed through are now endlessly fascinating.And allowing more time to kind of stay in a place has its own value. [00:09:19] Chris Christou: Well, blessings to your mother. What's her name if I can ask? Her name's Caroline. It's the same name as my wife. So it's a source of endless entertainment for my friends. Well, thank you, Caroline, for, for that moment, for allowing it to happen.I think for better or worse, so many of us are robbed of those opportunities as children. And thinking recently about I'll have certain flashbacks to childhood and that awe and that awe-inspiring imagination that seems limitless perhaps for a young child and is slowly waned or weaned as we get older.So thank you to your mother for that. I'm sure part of the reason that we're having this conversation today. And you touched a little bit on this notion of expectation and you used the word focus as well, and I'm apt to consider more and more the the question of sight and how it dominates so much of our sense perception and our sense relationships as we move through our lives and as we move across the world.And so I'd like to bring up another little excerpt from Bulls and Scars, which I just have to say I loved so much. And in the essay you write, quote, "I know nothing about anything. It's a relief to admit this now and let myself be led. All I see is the surface of things. The elaborate hairstyle of a man, shaved to the crown and plastered down in a clay hardened bun, a woman's goat skin skirt, fringed with cowrie shelves and not the complex layers of meaning that lie beneath. I understand nothing of the ways in which these things fit together, how they collide or overlap. There are symbols I cannot read, lines I do not see."End quote. And so this, this reminded me. I have walking through a few textile shops here in Oaxaca some years ago with a friend of mine and he noted how tourists tend towards these textile styles, colors and designs, but specifically the ones that tend to fit their own aesthetics and how this can eventually alter what the local weavers produce and often in service to foreign tastes.And he said to me, he said, "most of the time we just don't know what we're looking at." And so it's not just our inability to see as a disciplined and locally formed skill that seems to betray us, but also our unwillingness to know just that that makes us tourists or foreigners in a place. My question to you is, how do you imagine we might subvert these culturally conjured ways of seeing, assuming that's even necessary? [00:12:24] Nick Hunt: Well, that's a question that comes up an awful lot as a travel writer. And it's one I've become more aware of over these three books I've written, which form a very loose trilogy about, they're all about walking in different parts of Europe.And I've only become more aware of that that challenge of the traveler. There's another line in that essay that something like " they say that traveling opens doors, but sometimes people take their doors with them." You know, it's not necessarily true, but any means that seeing the world kind of widens your perspective. A lot of people just, you know, their eyes don't change no matter where they go. And so, I know that when I'm doing these journeys, I'm going completely subjectively with my own prejudices, my own mood of the day which completely determines how I see a place and how I meet people and what I bring away from it.And also what I, what I give. And I think this is, this is kind of an unavoidable thing really. It's one of the paradoxes maybe at the heart of the kind of travel writing I do, and there's different types of travel writers. Some people are much more conscientious about when they talk to people, it's, you know, it's more like an interview.They'll record it. They'll only kind of quote exactly what they were told. But even that, there's a kind of layer of storytelling, obviously, because they are telling a story, they're telling a narrative, they're cutting certain things out of the frame, and they're including others. They're exaggerating or amplifying certain details that fit the narrative that they're following.I think an answer to your question, I, I'm not sure yet, but I'm hopefully becoming more, more aware. And I think one thing is not hiding it, is not pretending that a place as I see it, that I, by any means, can see the truth, you know, the kind of internal truth of this place. There's awareness that my view is my view and I think the best thing we can do is just not try and hide that to include it as part of the story we tell. Hmm. And I, I noticed for my first book, I did this long walk across Europe that took about seven and a half months. And there were many days when I didn't really want to be doing it.I was tired, sick, didn't want to be this kind of traveling stranger, always looking like the weirdo walking down the street with a big bag and kind of unshaved sunburnt face. And so I noticed that some villages I walked into, I would come away thinking, my God, those people were awful.They were really unfriendly. No one looked at me, no one smiled. I just felt this kind of hostility. And then I'd think, well, the common factor in this is always me. And I must have been walking into that village looking shifty, not really wanting to communicate with anyone, not making any contact, not explaining who I was.And of course they were just reflecting back what I was giving them. So I think, just kind of centering your own mood and the baggage you take with you is very important. [00:15:46] Chris Christou: Yeah. Well, I'd like to focus a little bit more deeply on that book and then those travels that you wrote about anyways, in Walking the Woods and the Water.And just a little bit of a background for our listeners. The book's description is as follows. "In 1933, Patrick Leigh Fermor set out in a pair of hobnail boots to chance and charm his way across Europe. Quote, like a tramp, a pilgrim, or a wandering scholar. From the hook of Holland to Istanbul. 78 years later, I (you) followed in his footsteps.The book recounts a seven month walk through Holland, Germany, Austria, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Turkey on a quest to discover what remains of hospitality, kindness to strangers, freedom, wildness, adventure, and the deeper occurrence of myth and story that still flow beneath Europe's surface.Now before diving a little bit more deeply into these questions of hospitality and xenophobia or xenophilia, I'd like to ask about this pilgrimage and the others you've undertaken, especially, this possibility that seems to be so much an endangered species in our times, which is our willingness or capacity to proceed on foot as opposed to in vehicles.And so I'm curious how your choice to walk these paths affected your perception, how you experienced each new place, language, culture, and people emerging in front of you. Another way of asking the question would be, what is missed by our urge to travel in vehicles?[00:17:36] Nick Hunt: Well, that first walk, which set off the other ones, I later did. It could only have been a walk because the whole idea was to follow the footsteps of Patrick Leigh Fermor, who was a very celebrated travel writer who set out in 1933 with no ambition or kind of purpose other than he just wanted to walk to Istanbul.And it was his own kind of obsessive thing that he wanted to do. And I was deeply influenced by his book. And I was quite young and always thought I wanted to kind of try. I I was just curious to see the Europe that he saw was, you know, the last of a world that disappeared very shortly afterwards because he saw Germany as this unknown guy called Adolf Hitler, who was just emerging on the scene. He walked through these landscapes that were really feudal in character, you know, with counts living in castles and peasants working in the fields. And he, so he saw the last of this old Europe that was kind of wiped out by, well first the second World War, then communism in Eastern Europe and capitalism, in Western Europe and then everywhere.So it's just had so many very traumatic changes and I just wanted to know if there was any of what he saw left, if there was any of that slightly fairytale magic that he glimpsed. So I had to walk because it, it just wouldn't have worked doing it by any other form of transport. And I mean, initially, even though I'd made up my mind, I was going to go by foot and I knew I wasn't in a hurry. It was amazing how frustrating walking was in the first couple of weeks. It felt almost like the whole culture is, you know, geared around getting away, got to go as quickly as possible.In Holland actually I wasn't walking in remote mountains, I was walkingthrough southern industrial states and cities in which a walker feels, you feel like an outcast in places you shouldn't really be. So, it took a couple of weeks for my mind to really adjust and actually understand that slowness was the whole purpose. And then it became the pleasure.And by halfway through Germany, I hadn't gone on any other form of transport for maybe six weeks, and I stayed with someone who, he said, "I'm going to a New Year's Eve party in the next town." It was New Year's Eve. The next town was on my route. He said, "you know, I'm driving so I might as well take you there."So I said, "great," cuz it'd been a bit weird to kind of go to this town and then come back again. It was on my way. So, I got in a car and the journey took maybe half an hour and I completely panicked, moving at that speed, I was shocked by how much of the world was taken away from me, actually, because by then I'd learned to love spotting these places, you know, taking routes along, along rivers and through bits of woodland.I was able to see them coming and all of these things were flashing past me. We crossed the Rhine, which was this great river that I'd been following for weeks. And it was like a stream, you know, it was a puddle. It was kind of gone under the bridge in two seconds. Wow. And it really felt like I had this, this kind of guilt, to be honest.It was this feeling of what was in that day that I lost, you know, what didn't I see? Who didn't I meet? I've just been sitting in the passenger seat of a car, and I have no sense of direction. The thing about walking is you're completely located at all times. You walk into the center of a city and you've had to have walked through the suburbs.You've seen the outskirts, and it helps, you know, well that's north. Like, you know, I came from that direction. That's south. That's where I'm going. If you take a train or get in a car, unless you're really paying attention, you are kind of catapulted into the middle of this city without any concept of what direction you're going in next.And I didn't realize how disorienting that is because we're so used to it. We do it all the time. And this was only a kind of shadow of what was to come at the very end of my journey, cuz I got to Istanbul after seven and a half months. I was in a very weird place that I've only kind of realized since all that time walking.And I stayed a couple of weeks in Turkey and then I flew home again, partly cuz I had a very patient and tolerant and forgiving girlfriend who I couldn't kind of stretch it out any, any longer. And initially I think I'd been planning to come back on like hitchhiking or buses and trains. But in the end I was like, "you know, whatever, I'll just spend a couple days more in Turkey, then I'll get on a plane."And I think it was something like three hours flying from Istanbul and three hours crossing a continent that you spent seven and a half months walking. And I was looking down and seeing the Carpathian mountains and the Alps and these kind of shapes of these rivers, some of which I recognized as places I'd walked through.And again, this sense of what am I missing, that would've been an extraordinary journey going through that landscape. Coming back. You mentioned pilgrimage earlier, and someone told me once, who was doing lots of work around pilgrimage that, you know, in the old days when people had to walk or take a horse, if you were rich, say you started in England, your destination was Constantinople or Jerusalem or Rome, that Jerusalem or Rome wasn't the end of your journey.That was the exact halfway point, because when you got there, you had to walk back again. And on the way out, you'd go with your questions and your openness about whatever this journey meant to you. And then on the way back, you would be slowly at the pace of walking, trying to incorporate what you'd learnt and what you'd experienced into your everyday life of your village, your family, your community, you know, your land.So by the time you got back, you'd had all of that time to process what happened. So I think with that walk, you know, I, I did half the pilgrimage thinking I'd done all of it, and then was plunged back into, actually went straight back to the life I'd been living before in, in London as if nothing had ever happened.And I think for the year after that walk, my soul hadn't caught up with my body by any means. Mm-hmm. I was kind of living this strange sort of half life that felt very familiar because I recognized everything, but I felt like a very different person, to be honest and it took a long time to actually process that.But I think if I'd, even if I'd come back by, you know, public transport of some sort it would've helped just soften the blow. [00:25:04] Chris Christou: What a context to put it in, softening the blow. Hmm. It reminds me of the etymology of travel as far as I've read is that it used to mean an arduous journey.And that the arduous was the key descriptor in that movement. It reminds me of, again, so many of my travels in my twenties that were just flash flashes of movement on flights and buses. And that I got back to Canada. And the first thing was, okay, well I'm outta money, so I need to get back to work and I need to make as much money as possible.And there just wasn't enough time. And there wasn't perhaps time, period, in order to integrate what rolled out in front of me over those trips. And I'm reminded of a story that David Abram tells in his book Becoming Animal about jet lag. And perhaps a hypothesis that he has around jet lag and that we kind of flippantly use the excuse or context of time zones to explain this relative sense of being in two places at once.To what extent he discussed this, I don't remember very well, but just this understanding of when we had moved over vast distances on foot in the past, that we would've inevitably been open and apt to the emerging geographies languages, foods even cultures as we arrive in new places, and that those things would've rolled out very slowly in front of us, perhaps in the context of language heavily.But in terms of geography, I imagine very slowly, and that there would've been a kind of manner of integration, perhaps, for lack of a better word in which our bodies, our sensing bodies, would've had the ability to confront and contend with those things little by little as we moved. And it also reminds me of this book Rebecca Solnit's R iver of Shadows, where she talks about Edward Muybridge and the invention of the steam engine and the train and train travel.And how similarly to when people first got a glimpse of the big screen cinema that there was a lot of bodily issues. People sometimes would get very nauseous or pass out or have to leave the theater because their bodies weren't used to what was in front of them.And in, on the train, there were similar instances where for the first time at least, you know, as we can imagine historically people could not see the foreground looking out the train window. They could only see the background because the foreground was just flashing by so quickly.Wow, that's interesting. Interesting. And that we've become so used to this. And it's a really beautiful metaphor to, to wonder about what has it done to a people that can no longer see what's right there in front of them in terms of not just the politics, in their place, but the, their home itself, their neighbors, the geography, et cetera.And so I'm yet to read that book in mention, but I'm really looking forward to it because it's given me a lot of inspiration to consider a kind of pilgrimage to the places where my old ones are from there in, in southeastern Europe and also in Southwestern England.[00:28:44] Nick Hunt: Hmm.Yeah. That is a, so I'm still thinking about that metaphor of the train. Yeah. You don't think of that People wouldn't have had that experience of seeing the foreground disappear. And just looking at the distance, that's deeply strange and inhuman experience, isn't it? Hmm.[00:29:07] Chris Christou: Certainly. And, you know, speaking of these, these long pilgrimages and travels, my grandparents made their way from, as I mentioned, southwestern England later Eastern Africa and, and southeastern Europe to Canada in the fifties and sixties. And the peasant side of my family from what today is northern Greece, Southern Macedonia, brought a lot of their old time hospitality with them.And it's something that has always been this beautiful clue and key to these investigations around travel and exile. And so, you know, In terms of this old time hospitality, in preparing for this interview, I was reminded of a story that Ivan Illich once spoke of, or at least once, wrote about of a Jesuit monk living in China who took up a pilgrimage from Peking to Rome just before World War II, perhaps not unlike Patrick Leigh Fermor. Mm-hmm. And Illich recalled the story in his book, Rivers North of the Future as follows. He wrote, quote, "at first it was quite easy, he said (the Jesuit said,) in China, he only had to identify himself as a pilgrim, someone whose walk was oriented to a sacred place and he was given food, a handout, and a place to sleep.This changed a little bit when he entered the territory of Orthodox Christianity. There, they told him to go to the parish house where a place was free or to the priest's house. Then he got to Poland, the first Catholic country, and he found that the Polish Catholics generously gave him money to put himself up in a cheap hotel.And so the Jesuit was recalling the types of local hospitality he received along his path, which we could say diminished the further he went. Now, I'd love it if you could speak perhaps about the kinds of hospitality or, or perhaps the lack there of you experienced on your pilgrimage from the northwest of Europe to the southeast of Europe.And what, if anything, surprised you? [00:31:26] Nick Hunt: Well, that was one of my main interests really, was to see if the extraordinary hospitality that my predecessor had experienced in the 1930s where he'd been accommodated everywhere from, peasants' barns to the castles of Hungarian aristocrats and everything in between. I wanted to see if that generosity still existed. And talking about different ways of offering hospitality when he did his walk, one of the fairly reliable backstops he had was going to a police officer and saying "I'm a student. I'm a traveling student." That was the kind of equivalent to the pilgrim ticket in his day in a lot of parts of Europe. "I'm a student and I'm going from one place to the next," and he would be given a bed in the local police station. You know, they'd open up a cell, sleep there for the night, and then he'd leave in the morning. And I think it sometimes traditionally included like a mug of beer and some bread or soup or something, but even by his time in the thirties, it was a fairly well established thing to ask, I dunno how many people were doing it, but he certainly met in Germany, a student who was on the road going to university and the way he was going was walking for days or weeks.That wasn't there when I did my work. I don't think I ever asked a policeman, but in a couple of German towns, I went to the town hall. You know, the sort of local authority in Germany. They have a lot of authority and power in the community. And I asked a sort of bemused receptionist if I could claim this kind of ancient tradition of hospitality and spend the night in a police station, and they had no idea what I was talking about.Wow. And I think someone in a kind of large village said, "well, that's a nice idea, but I can't do that because we've got a tourist industry and all the guest house owners, you know, they wouldn't be happy if we started offering accommodation for free. It would put them out of business." Wow. And I didn't pay for accommodation much, but I did end up shelling out, you know, 30, 40 euros and sleeping in a, B&B.But having said that, the hospitality has taken on different forms. I started this journey in winter, which was the, when Patrick Leigh Fermor started, in December. So, I kind of wanted to start on the same date to have a similar experience, but it did mean walking through the coldest part of Europe, you know, Germany and Austria in deep snow and arriving in Bulgaria and Turkey when it was mid-summer.So I went from very cold to very hot. And partly for this reason, I was nervous about the beginning, not knowing what this experience was gonna be like. So, I used the couch surfing website, which I think Airbnb these days has probably kind of undercut a lot of it, but it was a free, very informal thing where people would provide a bed or a mattress or a place on the floor, a sofa for people passing through.And I was in the south of Germany before I ran out of couch surfing stops. But I also supplemented that with sleeping out. I slept in some ruined castles on the way. Hmm. I slept in these wooden hunting towers that no hunters were in. It wasn't the season. But they were freezing, but they were dry, you know, and they gave shelter.But I found that the language of hospitality shifted the further I went. In Holland, Germany, and Austria, people were perfectly, perfectly hospitable and perfectly nice and would put me up. But they'd say, when do you have to leave? You know, which is a perfectly reasonable question and normally it was first saying the next morning.And I noticed when I got to Eastern Europe, the question had shifted from when do you want to leave to how long can you stay? And that's when there was always in Hungary and then in Romania in particular and Bulgaria, people were kind of finding excuses to keep me longer. There would be, you know, it's my granddad's birthday, we're gonna bake him a cake and have a party, or we're going on a picnic, or we're going to the mountains, or we're going to our grandmother's house in the countryside. You should see that.And so my stays did get longer, the further southeast I got, partly cuz it was summer and everybody's in a good mood and they're doing things outdoors and they're traveling a bit more. But yeah, I mean the hospitality did shift and I got passed along as Patrick Leigh Fermor had done. So someone would say, you're going this way.They look at my map, you're going through this town. I've got a cousin, or I know a school teacher. Maybe you can sleep in the school and give a talk to the students the next day. So, all of these things happened and I kind of got accommodated in a greater variety of places, a nunnery where I was fed until I'd hardly move, by these nuns, just plain, homemade food and rakia and wine. And I stayed at a short stay in a psychiatric hospital in France, Sylvania. Talking of the changes that have happened to Europe, when Patrick Leigh Fermor stayed there it was a country house owned by a Hungarian count. His assets had since been liquidated, you know, his family dispossessed in this huge building given to the Romanian State to use as a hospital, and it was still being run that way.But the family had kind of made contact, again, having kept their heads down under communism, but realized they had no use for a huge mansion with extensive grounds. There was no way they could fill it or maintain it. And so it was continued to be used as a hospital, but they had a room where they were able to stay when they passed through.So I spent a few nights there. So everything slowed down was my experience, the further southeast I got. And going back actually to one of your first questions about, why walk? And what do you notice from walking? One of the things you really notice is the incremental changes by which, culture changes as well as landscape.You see the crossovers. You see that people in this part of Holland are a bit like this people in this part of Germany over the border. You know, borders kind of matter less because you see one culture merging into another. Languages and accents changing. And sometimes those changes are quite abrupt, but often they're all quite organic and the food changes, the beer changes, the wine changes, the local cheese or delicacies change.And so that was one of the great pleasures of it was just kind of understanding these many different cultures in Europe as part of a continuum rather than these kind of separate entities that just happen to be next door to each other. [00:38:50] Chris Christou: Right. That's so often constructed in the western imagination through borders, through state borders.[00:38:58] Nick Hunt: Just talking of borders, they've only become harder, well for everyone in the places I walk through. And I do wonder what it would be like making this journey today after Brexit. I wouldn't be able to do it just quite simply. It's no longer possible for a British person to spend more than three months in the EU, as a visitor, as a tourist.So I think I could have walked to possibly Salzburg or possibly Vienna, and then had to come back and wait three months before continuing the journey. So I was lucky, you know, I was lucky to do it in the time I did. Mm-hmm. [00:39:38] Chris Christou: Mm-hmm. I'm very much reminded through these stories and your reflections of this essay that Ivan Illich wrote towards the end of his life called "Hospitality and Pain."And you know, I highly, highly recommend it for anyone who's curious about how hospitality has changed, has been commodified and co-opted over the centuries, over the millennia. You know, he talks very briefly, but very in depth about how the church essentially took over that role for local people, that in the Abrahamic worldview that there was generally a rule that you could and should be offering three days and nights of sanctuary to the stranger for anyone who'd come passing by and in part because in the Christian world in another religious worldviews that the stranger could very well be a God in disguise, the divine coming to your doorstep. We're talking of course, about the fourth and fifth centuries.About how the church ended up saying, no, no, no, don't worry, don't worry. We got this. You, you guys, the people in the village, you don't have to do this anymore. They can come to the church and we'll give them hospitality. And of course, you know, there's the hidden cost, which is the, the attempt at conversion, I'm sure.Yeah. But that later on the church instituted hospitals, that word that comes directly from hospitality as these places where people could stay, hospitals and later hostels and hotels and in Spanish, hospedaje and that by Patrick Lee firm's time we're talking about police stations.Right. and then, you know, in your time to some degree asylums. It also reminded me of that kind of rule, for lack of a better word of the willingness or duty of people to offer three days and nights to the stranger.And that when the stranger came upon the doorstep of a local person, that the local person could not ask them what they were doing there until they had eaten and often until they had slept a full night. But it's interesting, I mean, I, I don't know how far deep we can go with this, but the rule of this notion, as you were kind of saying, how the relative degree of hospitality shifted from [00:42:01] Nick Hunt: when do you have to leave to how long how long can you stay? [00:42:05] Chris Christou: Right. Right. That Within that kind of three day structure or rule that there was also this, this notion that it wasn't just in instituted or implemented or suggested as a way of putting limits on allowing a sense of agency or autonomy for the people who are hosting, but also limiting their hospitality.Kind of putting this, this notion on the table that you might want to offer a hundred days of hospitality, but you're not allowed. Right. And what and where that would come from and why that there would be this necessity within the culture or cultures to actually limit someone's want to serve the stranger.[00:42:54] Nick Hunt: Yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I wonder where that came from. I mean, three is always a bit of a magic number, isn't it? Mm-hmm. But yeah, it sounds like that maybe comes from an impulse from both sides somehow. [00:43:09] Chris Christou: Mm-hmm. Nick, I'd like to come back to this question of learning and learning with the other of, of interculturality and tourism. And I'd like to return to your essay, Bulls and Scars, momentarily with this excerpt. And it absolutely deserves the title of being one of the best travel writing pieces of the 21st century. And so in that essay you write, "if we stay within our horizons surrounded by people who are the same as us, it precludes all hope. We shut off any possibility of having our automatic beliefs, whether good or bad, right or wrong, smashed so their rubble can make new shapes. We will never be forced to understand that there are different ways to be human, different ways to be ourselves, and we desperately need that knowledge, even if we don't know it yet."Hmm. And now I don't disagree at all. I think we are desperately in need of deeper understandings of what it means to be human and what it means to be human together. The argument will continue to arise, however, at what cost? How might we measure the extent of our presence in foreign places and among foreign people, assuming that such a thing is even possible.[00:44:32] Nick Hunt: Yeah, that's a question that's at the heart of that essay, which I don't think we've said is set in the South Omo Valley in Ethiopia. And part of it is about this phenomenon of tribal safaris, you know, which is as gross as it sounds, and it's rich western people driving in fleets of four by fours to indigenous tribal villages and, you know, taking pictures and watching a dance and then going to the next village.And the examples of this that I saw when I was there, I said, when I said in the essay, you couldn't invent a better parody of tourists. It was almost unbelievable. It was all of the obnoxious stereotypes about the very worst kind of tourists behaving in the very worst possible way, seemingly just no self reflection whatsoever, which was disheartening.And that's an extreme example and it's easy to parody because it was so extreme. But I guess what maybe you're asking more is what about the other people? What about those of us who do famously think of ourselves as as travelers rather than tourists? There's always that distinction I certainly made when I was doing it in my twenties.So I'm not a tourist, I'm a traveler. It's like a rich westerner saying that they're an "expat" rather than an immigrant when they go and live in a foreign country that's normally cheaper than where they came from. Yeah, that's a question again, like the great secret, I don't think I answer in that essay.What I did discover was that, it was much more nuanced than I thought it was originally. Certainly on a surface, looking at the scenes that I saw, what I saw as people who were completely out of their depth, out of their world, out of their landscape, looking like idiots and being mocked fairly openly by these tribal people who they were, in my view, exploiting. They didn't look like they were better off in a lot of ways, even though they had the, thousand dollars cameras and all the expensive clothes and the vehicles and the money and obviously had a certain amount of power cuz they were the ones shelling out money and kind of getting what they wanted.But it wasn't as clear cut as I thought. And I know that's only a kind of anecdote. It's not anything like a study of how people going to remote communities, the damage they do and the impact they have. I've got another another example maybe, or something that I've been working on more recently, which comes from a journey that I haven't not written anything about it yet.But in March of this year, I was in Columbia and Northern Columbia. The first time for a long time that I've, gone so far. All of my work has been sort of around Europe, been taking trains. I mean, I got on a plane and left my soul behind in lots of ways, got to Columbia and there were various reasons for my going, but one of the interests I had was I had a contact who'd worked with the Kogi people who live in the Sierra Nevada des Santa Marta Mountains on the Caribbean coast.An extraordinary place, an extraordinary people who have really been isolated at their own instigation, since the Spanish came, and survived the conquest with a culture and religion and economy, really more or less intact, just by quietly retreating up the mountain and not really making a lot of fuss for hundreds of years, so effectively that until the 1960s, outsiders didn't really know they were there. And since then there has been contact made from what I learned really by the Kogi rather than the other way around. Or they realized that they couldn't remain up there isolated forever.Maybe now because people were starting to encroach upon the land and settle and cut down forests. And there was obviously decades of warfare and conflict and drug trafficking and a very dangerous world they saw outside the mountains. And this journey was very paradoxical and strange and difficult because they do not want people to visit them.You know, they're very clear about that. They made a couple of documentary films or collaborated in a couple of documentary films in the late nineties and sort of early two thousands where they sent this message to the world about telling the younger brothers as they call us, where they're going wrong, where we are going wrong, all the damage we're doing.And then after that film, it was really, that's it. "We don't wanna communicate with you anymore. We've said what we have to say, leave us alone." You know, "we're fine. We'll get on with it." But they, the contact I had I arranged to meet a sort of spokesman for this community, for this tribe in Santa Marta.Kind of like an, a sort of indigenous embassy in a way. And he was a real intermediary between these two worlds. He was dressed in traditional clothes, lived in the mountains but came down to work in this city and was as conversant with that tribal and spiritual life as he was with a smartphone and a laptop.So he was really this kind of very interesting bridge character who was maintaining a balance, which really must have been very difficult between these two entirely different worldviews and systems. And in a series of conversations with him and with his brother, who also acts as a spokesman, I was able to talk to them about the culture and about the life that was up there, or the knowledge they wanted to share with me.And when it came time for me to ask without really thinking that it would work, could I have permission to go into the Sierra any further because I know that, you know, academics and anthropologists have been welcomed there in the past. And it was, it was actually great. It was a wonderful relief to be told politely, but firmly, no.Hmm. No. Mm. You know, it's been nice meeting you. If you wanted to go further into the mountains. You could write a, a detailed proposal, and I thought this was very interesting. They said you'd need to explain what knowledge you are seeking to gain, what you're going to do with that knowledge and who you will share that knowledge with.Like, what do you want to know? And then we would consider that, the elders, the priests, the mammos would consider that up in the mountains. And you might get an answer, but it might take weeks. It could take months because everything's very, very slow, you know? and you probably wouldn't be their priority.Right. And so I didn't get to the Sierra, and I'm writing a piece now about not getting to the place where you kind of dream of going, because, to be completely honest, and I know how, how kind of naive and possibly colonial, I sound by saying this, but I think it's important to recognize part of that idea of finding the great secret.Of course, I wanted to go to this place where a few Westerners had been and meet people who are presented or present themselves as having deep, ecological, ancestral spiritual knowledge, that they know how to live in better harmony with the earth. You know, whether that's true or not, that in itself is a simplified, probably naive view, but that's the kind of main story of these people.Why wouldn't I want to meet them? You know, just the thought that not 50 miles away from this bustling, polluted city, there's a mountain range. It's one of the most biodiverse places on the planet that has people who have kept knowledge against all odds, have kept knowledge for 500 years and have not been conquered and have not been wiped out, and have not given in.You know, obviously I wanted to go there, but it was wonderful to know that I couldn't because I'm not welcome. Mm. And so I'm in the middle of writing a piece that's a, it's a kind of non-travel piece. It's an anti travel piece or a piece examining, critically examining that, that on edge within myself to know what's around the next corner.To look over the horizon to get to the top of the mountain, you know, and, and, and explore and discover all of that stuff. But recognizing that, it is teasing out which parts of that are a genuine and healthy human curiosity. And a genuine love of experiencing new things and meeting new people and learning new things and what's more of a colonial, "I want to discover this place, record what I find and take knowledge out."And that was one thing that I found very interestingly. They spoke very explicitly about seeking knowledge as a form of extraction. For hundreds of years they've had westerners extracting the obvious stuff, the coal, the gold, the oil, the timber, all the material goods. While indigenous knowledge was discounted as completely useless.And now people are going there looking for this knowledge. And so for very understandable reasons, these people are highly suspicious of these people turning up, wanting to know things. What will you do with the knowledge? Why do you want this knowledge? And they spoke about knowledge being removed in the past, unscrupulously taken from its proper owners, which is a form of theft.So, yeah, talking about is appropriate to be talking about this on the end of tourism podcast. Cause yeah, it's very much a journey that wasn't a journey not hacking away through the jungle with the machete, not getting the top of the mountain, you know, not seeing the things that no one else has seen.Wow. And that being a good thing. [00:54:59] Chris Christou: Yeah. It brings me back to that question of why would either within a culture or from some kind of authoritative part of it, why would a people place limits to protect themselves in regards to those three days of allowing people to stay?Right. And not for longer. Yes. [00:55:20] Nick Hunt: Yeah, that's very true. Mm-hmm. Because people change, the people that come do change things. They change your world in ways big and small, good and bad. [00:55:31] Chris Christou: You know, I had a maybe not a similar experience, but I was actually in the Sierra Nevadas maybe 12 years ago now, and doing a backpacking trip with an ex-girlfriend there.And the Columbian government had opened a certain part of the Sierra Nevadas for ecotourism just a few years earlier. And I'm sure it's still very much open and available in those terms. And it was more or less a a six day hike. And because this is an area as well where there were previous civilizations living there, so ruins as well.And so that that trip is a guided trek. So you would go with a local guide who is not just certified as a tour guide, but also a part of the government program. And you would hike three days and hike back three days. And there was one lunch where there was a Kogi man and his son also dressed in traditional clothing. And for our listeners, from what I understand anyways, there are certain degrees of inclusion in Kogi society. So the higher up the mountain you go, the more exclusive it is in terms of foreigners are not allowed in, in certain places.And then the lower down the mountain and you go, there are some places where there are Kogi settlements, but they are now intermingling with for example, these tourists groups. And so that lunch was an opportunity for this Kogi man to explain a little bit about his culture, the history there and of course the geography.And as we were arriving to that little lunch outpost his son was there maybe 10, 15 feet away, a few meters away. And we kind of locked eyes and I had these, very western plastic sunglasses on my head. And the Kogi boy, again, dressed in traditional clothing, he couldn't speak any English and couldn't speak any Spanish from what I could tell.And so his manner of communicating was with his hands. And he subtly but somewhat relentlessly was pointing at my sunglasses. And I didn't know what to do, of course. And he wanted my sunglasses. And there's this, this moment, and in that moment so much can come to pass.But of course afterwards there was so much reflection to be taken in regards to, if I gave him my sunglasses, what would be the consequence of that, that simple action rolling out over the course of time in that place. And does it even matter that I didn't give him my sunglasses, that I just showed up there and had this shiny object that, that perhaps also had its consequence rolling out over the course of this young man's life because, I was one of 10 or 12 people that day in that moment to pass by.But there were countless other groups. I mean, the outposts that we slept in held like a hundred people at a time. Oh, wow. And so we would, we would pass people who were coming down from the mountain and that same trek or trip and you know, so there was probably, I would say close to a hundred people per day passing there.Right. And what that consequence would look like rolling out over the course of, of his life. [00:59:11] Nick Hunt: Yeah. You could almost follow the story of a pair of plastic sunglasses as they drop into a community and have sort of unknown consequences or, or not. But you don't know, do you? Yeah. Yeah. I'm, it was fascinating knowing that you've been to the same, that same area as well. Appreciated that. What's, what's your, what's your last question? Hmm. [00:59:34] Chris Christou: Well, it has to do with with the end of tourism, surprisingly.And so one last time, coming back to your essay, Bulls and Scars, you write, " a friend of mine refuses to travel to countries poor than his own. Not because he is scared of robbery or disease, but because the inequality implicit in every human exchange induces a squirming, awkwardness and corrosive sense of guilt.For him, the power disparity overshadows everything. Every conversation, every handshake, every smile and gesture. He would rather not travel than be in that situation." And you say, "I have always argued against this view because the see all human interactions as a function of economics means accepting capitalism in its totality, denying that people are driven by forces other than power and greed, excluding the possibility of there being anything else.The grotesque display of these photographic trophy hunters makes me think of him now." Now I've received a good amount of writing and messages from people speaking of their consternation and guilt in terms of "do I travel, do I not travel? What are the consequences?" Et cetera. In one of the first episodes of the podcast with Stephen Jenkinson, he declared that we have to find a way of being in the world that isn't guilt delivered or escapist, which I think bears an affinity to what you've written.Hmm. Finally, you wrote that your friend's perspective excludes "the possibility of there being anything else." Now I relentlessly return on the pod to the understanding that we live in a time in which our imaginations, our capacity to dream the world anew, is constantly under attack, if not ignored altogether.My question, this last question for you, Nick, is what does the possibility of anything else look like for you?[01:01:44] Nick Hunt: I think in a way I come back to that idea of being told we can't give you free accommodation here because, what about the tourist industry? And I think that it's become, you know, everything has become monetized and I get the, you know, the fact that that money does rule the world in lots of ways.And I'd be a huge hypocrite if I'd said that money wasn't deeply important to me. As much as I like to think it, much as I want to wish it away, it's obviously something that dictates a very large amount of what I do with my life, what I do with my time. But that everything else, well, it's some, it's friendship and hospitality and openness I think.It's learning and it's genuine exchange, not exchange, not of money and goods and services, but an actual human interaction for the pleasure and the curiosity of it. Those sound like very simple answers and I guess they are, but that is what I feel gets excluded when everything is just seen as a byproduct of economics.And that friend who, you know, I talked about then, I understand. I've had the experience as I'm sure you have of the kind of meeting someone often in a culture or community that is a lot poorer, who is kind, friendly, hospitable, helpful, and this nagging feeling of like, When does the money question come?Mm-hmm. And sometimes it doesn't, but often it does. And sometimes it's fine that it does. But it's difficult to kind of place yourself in this, I think, because it does instantly bring up all this kind of very useless western guilt that, you know, Steven Jenkinson talked about. It's not good to go through the world feeling guilty and suspicious of people, you know. 'When am I gonna be asked for money?' Is a terrible way of interacting with anyone to have that at the back of your, your mind.And I've been in situations where I've said can I give you some money? And people have been quite offended or thought it was ridiculous or laughed at me. So, it's very hard to get right. But like I say, it's a bad way of being in the world, thinking that the worst of people in that they're always, there's always some economic motive for exchange.And it does seem to be a kind of victory of capitalism in that we do think that all the time, you know, but what does this cost? What's the price? What's the price of this friendliness that I'm receiving? The interesting thing about it, I think, it is quite corrosive on both sites because things are neither offered nor received freely.If there's always this question of what's this worth economically. But I like that framing. What was it that Steven Jenkinson said? It was guilt on one side and what was the other side of the pole? [01:05:07] Chris Christou: Yeah. Neither guilt delivered or escapist. [01:05:11] Nick Hunt: Yeah. That's really interesting. Guilt and escapism. Because that is the other side, isn't it?Is that often traveling is this escape? And I think we can both relate to it. We both experience that as a very simple, it can be a very simple form of therapy or it seems simple that you just keep going and keep traveling and you run away from things. And also that isn't a helpful way of being in the world either, although it feels great, at the time for parts of your life when you do that.But what is the space between guilt and escapism? I think it really, the main thing for me, and again, this is a kind of, it sounds like a, just a terrible cliche, but I guess there's a often things do is I do think if you go and if you travel. And also if you stay at home with as open a mind as you can it does seem to kind of shape the way the world works.It shapes the way people interact with you, the way you interact with people. And just always keeping in mind the possibility that that things encounters, exchanges, will turn out for the best rather than the worst. Mm-hmm. You develop a slight sixth sense I think when traveling where you often have to make very quick decisions about people.You know, do I trust this person? Do I not trust this person? And you're not aware you're doing it, but obviously you can get it wrong. But not allowing that to always become this kind of suspicion of "what does this person want from me?" Hmm. I feel like I've just delivered a lot of sort of platitudes and cliches at the end of this talk.Just be nice, be, be open. Try to be respectful. Do no harm, also don't be wracked with guilt every exchange, because who wants to meet you if you are walking around, ringing your hands and kind of punching yourself in the face. Another important part of being a traveler is being a good traveler.Being somebody who people want coming to their community, village, town, city and benefit from that exchange as well. It's not just about you bringing something back. There's the art of being a good guest, which Patrick Leigh Fermor, to come back to him, was a master at. He would speak three or four different languages, know classical Greek poetry, be able to talk about any subject.Dance on the table, you know, drink all night. He was that kind of guest. He was the guest that people wanted to have around and have fun with mostly, or that's the way he presented himself, certainly. In the same way, you can be a good, same way, you can be a good host, you can be a good guest, and you can be a good traveler in terms of what you, what you bring, what you give.[01:08:20] Chris Christou: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think what it comes down to is that relationship and that hospitality that has for, at least for people in Europe and, and the UK and and Western people, descendants, culturally, is that when we look at, for example, what Illich kind of whispered towards, how these traditions have been robbed of us.And when you talk about other cliches and platitudes and this and that, that, we feel the need to not let them fall by the wayside, in part because we're so impoverished by the lack of them in our times. And so, I think, that's where we might be able to find something of an answer, is in that relationship of hospitality that, still exists in the world, thankfully in little corners.And, and those corners can also be found in the places that we live in.[01:09:21] Nick Hunt: I think it exists that desire for hospitality because it's a very deep human need. When I was a kid, I, I was always, for some reason I would hate receiving presents.There was something about the weight of expectation and I would always find it very difficult to receive presents and would rather not be given a lot of stuff to do with various complex family dynamics. But it really helped when someone said, you know, when someone gives you a present, it's not just for you, it's also for them. You know, they're doing it cuz they want to and to have a present refused is not a nice thing to do.It, it, that doesn't feel good for the person doing it. Their need is kind of being thrown back at them. And I think it's like that with hospitality as well. We kind of often frame it as the person receiving the hospitality has all the good stuff and the host is just kind of giving, giving, giving, but actually the host is, is getting a lot back. And that's often why they do it. It's like those people wanting, people to stay for three days is not just an act of kindness and selflessness. It's also, it feeds them and benefits them and improves their life. I think that's a really important thing to remember with the concept of hospitality and hosting.[01:10:49] Chris Christou: May we all be able to be fed in that way. Thank you so much, Nick, on behalf of our listeners for joining us today and I feel like we've started to unpack so much and there's so much more to consider and to wrestle with. But perhaps there'll be another opportunity someday.[01:11:06] Nick Hunt: Yeah, I hope so. Thank you, Chris. It was great speaking to you. [01:11:12] Chris Christou: Likewise, Nick. Before we finish off, I'd just like to ask, you know, on behalf of our listeners as well how might people be able to read and, and purchase your writing and your books? How might they be able to find you and follow you online?[01:11:26] Nick Hunt: So if you just look up my, my name Nick Hunt. My book should, should come up. I have a website. Nick hunt scrutiny.com. I have a, a book, a novel actually out in July next month, 6th of July called "Red Smoking Mirror."So that's the thing that I will be kind of focusing on for the next bit of time. You can also find me as Chris and I met each other through the Dark Mountain Project, which is a loose network of writers and artists and thinkers who are concerned with the times we're in and how to be human in times of crisis and collapse and change.So you can find me through any of those routes. Hmm. [01:12:17] Chris Christou: Beautiful. Well, I'll make sure that all those links are on the homework section on the end of tourism podcast when it launches. And this episode will be released after the release of your new, your book, your first novel. So, listeners will be able to find it then as well.[01:12:34] Nick Hunt: It will be in local shops. Independent bookshops are the best. [01:12:40] Chris Christou: Once again, thank you, Nick, for your time. [01:12:42] Nick Hunt: Thank you. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

A continuation of my earlier episode in which Trevien Stanger - instructor of environmental studies at St. Michael's College in Vermont - and I discuss Abram's book, which, I think it's fair to say, has had a profound effect on both of us. This time, we focus on Abram's argument about the impact of the invention of the alphabet on our relationship with the natural world. If you'd like to listen to part 1 of this discussion - https://www.buzzsprout.com/356774/11992722If you'd like to listen to my conversation with Johanna Drucker about the invention of the alphabet - https://www.buzzsprout.com/356774/11826284

To access our full conference library of 200+ fascinating psychology talks and interviews (with certification), please visit: https://twumembers.com Imagination has a valued place in psychotherapy. The images found in memories, relationship entanglements and future fantasies are the raw material of therapeutic work. And yet, faced with a significant dream or transference projection it can be difficult to resist the temptation of a clever interpretation. In this way, imagining is often eclipsed by thinking and the transformative potential of imaginative experience itself is neglected. This talk by Allan Frater will be of interest to therapists who want to work more holistically with images as images. Instead of treating images as symbols pointing to meaning elsewhere, the talk presents an image-centric approach, including: — A broad understanding of imagination as present in all perceptions, actions and relationships (not just as pictures ‘inside the mind'). — A ‘waking dream' method applicable to generic work with memories, the transference and future fantasies as well as art-therapy and active-imagination approaches. — Imaginal dialogues. — A non-interpretative patterning which links image work in the consulting room to the on-going story of self and world in everyday life. The result is an appreciation of imagination, not just as a means to rational insight but as an embodied imaginal sensibility at the heart of human potential and creativity. If you enjoy this, you can learn more about Allan's work by visiting: www.wildimagination.uk. --- This session was recorded as part of our Holistic Psychotherapy Summit in January 2023. To access the full conference package, as well as supporting materials, quizzes, and certification, please visit: https://theweekenduniversity.com/membership --- Allan Frater is a psychotherapist and teacher with Psychosynthesis Trust. Inspired by Jack Kerouac and Herman Hesse, he spent his twenties living and working in Buddhist communities where he came across the east-meets-west fusion of transpersonal psychology, eventually training to become a psychotherapist. His psychotherapy practice and teaching career have intersected at the meeting place between transpersonal psychology and an image-based approach to ecotherapy, the results of which will be presented in this talk. The introduction and first chapter of ‘Waking Dreams' can be sampled here: https://wildimagination.uk/book/ Further information and background here: https://wildimagination.uk 3 Books Allan Recommends Every Therapist Should Read: — Revisioning Psychology by James Hillman: https://amzn.to/3zgzeeh — The Spell of the Sensuous by David Abram: https://amzn.to/3FmfkSS — The Original Folk and Fairy Tales of the Brothers Grimm by Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm: https://amzn.to/3TFAbFd

In this week's narrated essay, cultural ecologist and geophilosopher David Abram conjures the impossible movements of Alaskan salmon, sandhill cranes, and monarch butterflies on their annual migrations, marveling at the reciprocal interactions that guide these creatures across the wider body of the Earth. What if, David asks, we understood migration as emerging from a conversation—a spontaneous reciprocity—between migrating creatures and the environments they migrate within? How might we humans, whose senses have coevolved with the enfolding biosphere, begin to recognize ourselves, too, as expressions of the animate, breathing Earth? Read this essay on our website. Explore more stories from Shifting Landscapes, our fourth print volume. Sign up for our newsletter to hear more stories as they are released each week. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Emil talks to Margaret about life on Svalbard. They talk about hiking in the Arctic, staying warm, gear, the unfortunate realities of climate change, and the rising conflicts between humans and polar bears. Guest Info Emil (He/they): a masters student on Arctic Outdoor life. Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Transcript LLWD: Emil on Arctic Hiking Margaret: Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcasts for what feels like the end times. I'm one of your hosts, Margaret killjoy. And this week, we're going to talk about snow and ice and moving across them. And I'm probably gonna ask about glaciers. And we're gonna talk about all that stuff. And I'm really excited because we're gonna be talking about how to move over Arctic terrain, which might be everywhere in the future. I mean, everything's getting warmer, but like, you know, everything's getting wackier. So things might get different. Do you need crampons? I don't know. I'm gonna find out. And that's what we're going to talk about. But first, we're proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts. And here's another jingle from another jingle...Here's a jingle from another show on the network. [Makes noises that sound like singing a melody] Margaret: Okay, we're back. So, if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then a little bit of your background as to why I'm having you on the show. Emil: Yeah, sure. So, my name is Emil. I go by he/him or they/them. I have a bachelor's degree in Arctic Outdoor Life and Nature Guiding from the University of Tromsø in Northern Norway. And I'm currently doing a master's degree, also in Outdoor Life, at the University of Southeastern Norway. Margaret: Okay, so this means that you spend your time with a sledge and fighting polar bears? And penguins. Is that correct? [Said with dry sarcasm. Emil laughs] Emil: There have been sledges and polar bear guard standing involved. But the penguins are on the other side of the planet unfortunately. We don't have penguins up here. [Laughing] Would be cool, though. Margaret: Yeah, I mean, because then you can have the polar bears and the penguins hanging out and the Far Side comics would be complete. Okay, so yeah, so you're a guide, or like, you know, so this is one of the things that you do is you take people out and show them how to move over this terrain and show them how to explore. Like, is this like tourists? Is this like, scientists? Is this people who got lost in the snow on their way home? Like, I don't really know what...I've never been in Norway. This is gonna come across. Emil: Yeah, no, it could be, it could be all those things. It could be guiding on scientific expeditions, it could be taking tourists on trips, or it could be more like, you know, like summer camps and things of that nature. Which, is more like...not as hardcore. So you have sort of, it's a broad range of sort of different levels from summer camps with kids that's really sort of safe to the two week long expeditions in the Arctic, skiing, where you really have to sort of take care of yourself and the people around you and you have to be sort of on guard. Margaret: Okay, yeah. And so I kind of want to ask you about...I mean, basically a lot of my questions are just like how do you move over Arctic terrain? Like what is involved? How do you get...how do you practice? Like, is it...is everything like snowshoeing? Is it cross country skis? Is it like, dogs and sleighs? Is it reindeer pulling the sleighs? Like what's...I'm making jokes, but I also know there's reindeer up there. Emil: Actually, actually, you can. You can actually do reindeer sledding. Some people do that. Margaret: Whoa. Emil: But yeah, really, in Northern Norway, the northern most county, there is a yearly reindeer sledding competition, actually. So that is the thing that some people do. But it's...Yeah, dogs sledding and skiing, I think, are the most common for long distance. If you're moving, sort of in forests, then snowshoes can be advantageous. But if you're moving any sort of distance, it's going to be cross-country skis, or we call them mountain skis. They're a bit broader. They're a bit wider than normal like racing skis, or dog sledding. Yeah. Margaret: So, like for my own selfish reasons--it's unlikely that I will specifically need to be moving...escaping an apocalypse in Northern Norway--like that seems not incredibly likely but something that does, like, within my own selfish...when I think about it, I'm like, "Well, what if I had to move over some mountains?" Right? Like, what if? And that seems like, the kind of thing that could theoretically come up in my life or just could be fun, right? What's involved in starting to learn that stuff? Like both, like, how does one? Like when you take someone out and you're like, "Here's some snowshoes?" Is it like a? Does it take people hours to figure them out? Is it like, pretty quick? Like... Emil: It's...I think it's pretty intuitive often. A lot of the outdoors sort of pedagogy or the philosophy of learning is learning by doing. So, it's getting hands on experience and just sort of trying it, obviously, putting people in an environment that's challenging enough that they feel a sense of accomplishment and mastery but not so challenging that they die. Margaret: Okay, that's seems like a good way to learn. Yeah. Emil: Yeah. So it's...What's involved in learning it? I think a lot of it does come from from childhood, at least if you live in the north, sort of something you grew up with. But I think it's kind of just like, getting out there. And then I know, there's skiing courses and stuff that you can take if you want to learn, like technique. Margaret: Yeah. Okay. Well, if I like had to, like, Lord of the Rings style cross a mountain pass, do I want skis? Or do I want snow shoes? Or do I want the Ring of Power? Like? Like, like, if I'm just crossing a mountain...Like, obviously, if I'm going to be like moving overland in the far north, it would be way better if I had skis, it seems to be the case. But like, if I'm just trying to like cross a mountain pass, do I need skis? Emil: Well, I think it depends on the...I think it's going to depend on the time of year and the snow depth. So you don't necessarily need skis. You can walk through the snow with just your normal shoes, not even snow shoes. But, it's probably going to be faster on skis. And additionally, you would probably want, at least if if you're going to be out for more than a day and you're going to be out for several days, you'd want something called a pulk instead of a backpack. A pulk is just a sled. So you pull the sled after you instead of carrying a backpack. It helps with stability. You can carry more, which typically, winter equipment is heavier. So it is advantageous to pull the sled. Margaret: Okay. Yeah, cuz one of the reasons...I think, I think that you commented, like, we posted an episode recently with an ultralight through hiker, right, and I think your comment was something like, "Whoa, things are different in America," or something like that. And, and so that's why I reached out to you. So, it's like, I'm curious, your reaction to concepts of like weight and ultralight and stuff like that. And I guess when you're carrying a pulk you, like...weight probably still matters, but in a very different way? Emil: Yeah. At least when it comes to when it comes to winter in the Arctic, you want equipment that sturdy. It's quite often specialized equipment as well. So, on average, it's going to be a bit heavier. So doing ultralight isn't necessarily feasible. So I think it's going to depend on sort of the environment you're in. Moving ultralight in a temperate forest, I think is probably more feasible. Like in, I don't know, the Appalachian Trail or the parts of the PCT, right? But, it's it's also a thing where the arctic environment is kind of inhospitable in the sense that there isn't a lot of available energy in the environment. So if you think about walking through temperate forest, right, you have firewood and there might be some food and stuff that you can forage, right. So energy both in the sense of fuel for heat and in the sense of calories, right? If you think about moving across a snowy mountain plateau, it's sort of a barren, it's kind of like an ice desert. You have to carry all of that energy with you, the fuel, the gasoline, the food, everything. So, it's necessarily going to be heavier. Margaret: Wait, what's the gasoline for? Emil: The gasoline is for stoves for burning. Yeah. Margaret: Oh, okay. Emil: Both for heating food and heating the tents. Margaret: Okay. Okay, so then...this is so much to think about. Obviously the way people do this now is probably very differently from the way people did this a hundred years ago or something, right? Like, I assume that a hundred years ago people probably bringing like--well, actually probably they were still bringing oil stoves a hundred years ago, actually, now that I think that through--rather than, like...people aren't hauling their firewood. People are instead hauling oil to burn? Is that? Emil: Yeah, yeah. Or is it kerosene? The sort of oil? Margaret: From wax? Emil: Yeah. Margaret: Burnable wax. Paraffin wax. Okay, yeah. Um, I'm trying to think there's like so many things I.... Emil: I know, it was different, like, the sleeping bags were made of reindeer skins and stuff, you know? Margaret: Yes. Yeah. And so it's probably lighter equipment now than it was 100 years ago? I assume that's like... Emil: Yeah. Margaret: Okay, what kills people? Like, besides probably everything, but like, what is the? Like, what are the like, main things you're worried about? Like, if I'm like, walking through the snow, am I gonna like just like, fall into the snow and then die? Like, I know, there's like avalanches to worry about...Like, like, I read a lot of like, "And then everyone went hiking, and then there's snow. And then they all died. And it was Russia. And people still argue about what happened to them. And they all went mad." Now, I can't remember where it was from. Emil: Yeah, the Dyatlov pass incident, I think it's called. Yeah, that I think was confirmed to be an avalanche. Or the the main theory now is that was an avalanche. That can....actually this actually a good example. Margaret: Yeah. Do you want to explain to the audience because if people have no idea what we're talking about, what are we talking about? Emil: Yeah, it was a group of people in Russia that went on a hike and they all died. And it's been sort of...it's been sort of a mystery for quite some time, what actually happened to them. Right. So there's been a lot of like, conspiracy theories and stuff. But, to the question of sort of what kills people: what killed them, the the predominant theory now is actually a, I believe, a combination of an avalanche and subsequent hypothermia. Okay. So they're...what we believe is that their tent was caved in by an avalanche, which then made everyone super wet, and super cold, and without shelter. And so they became hypothermic, and essentially, became so hypothermic that--and this is what happens when you become really, really, really cold, you start to feel warm, which is called the sort of...I think it's called the hypothermia paradox, right, which is when people, towards the end, they get so cold that they feel warm, they take off all their clothes and then they succumb... Margaret: Die. Emil: Yeah, to the cold. Alright, so the main things to worry about, I would say, are avalanches. So, if you're moving in terrain that is steeper than 30 degrees, or moving...then that's sort of the avalanche zone and then you have a zone below that where the avalanche could...the run out zone that you have to worry about. And then you have hypothermia, of course, just being cold. And hypothermia can be sort of a slow and insidious killer because it can actually creep up on you over the course of several days. Margaret: Yeah. Oh, interesting. Emil:Yeah, it can. And then the last one is carbon monoxide poisoning. Margaret: Oh, from like burning stuff inside your tent? Emil: Yes. Margaret: Or your snow cave. Emil: Yeah, from burning stuff inside the tent or the snow cave when you have, for example, a gasoline burner that isn't burning properly. So the flame is, if the flame is yellow, that means that it's an impure...the...it's not a...it's not a complete complete combustion, as opposed to when the flame is blue. So blue flame means less carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide is tasteless, colorless gas. It's a heavy gas that settles below, sort of on the floor. And it takes up the place of oxygen in your blood. So, your blood transports oxygen through your body. But, when the body takes up carbon monoxide there is no more space for oxygen, essentially. The body thinks it's oxygen, and so what happens is that you actually, your brain becomes oxygen depleted. You become dizzy, tired, you can begin to hallucinate, and just generally your decision making ability degrades. Margaret: You sound like you're speaking from experience. EmilI have, I have woken up one time with sort of...you get these, you can get these sort of black spots under your nose almost from a night of sleeping in it. Yeah. And I was kind of dizzy after, that day. Margaret: Okay, but do you all have a like, and maybe it would be in Norwegian and not in English, but do you have like a like, like, "Flame is blue, that'll do. Flame is yellow, you're a dead fellow." Like, is there like... that's the one I just made up. But like... Emil: It was very good. I don't think we do, actually. We should. Yeah, no, we're not that creative. Margaret: Okay, you got to work on that. Emil: Maybe it's something to do with our Norwegian language. I don't know. Margaret: I literally don't know word of Norwegian. So I can't...That's annoying. I'm like, I usually know how to say at least like, "Thank you," and, "Fuck you," in like most languages. Emil: You know, it's quite similar, actually, because English is a mix between, I think it's...there's some Gaelic in it, and then there's Norwegian, and Danish, and Swedish, and French, right, because of all the different groups of people that invaded England and settled there over the history. So it's, you say, "Egg," I say, "Egg." [rhymes with "dig"] You say, "Window," I say, "Vindu." So, it's quite similar. Margaret: Okay, how do you say "thank you"? Emil: Takk Margaret: Takk. Okay. I think I have heard this before. Or is it? Maybe it's similar to Swedish or something? Emil: Yeah, they're mutually intelligible. Margaret: Oh, interesting. That's good to know. My tiny bit of Swedish. Emil: Swedes and Norwegians can talk to each other. Margaret: As everyone in the audience learns that Margaret doesn't know shit about Norway. I know way more about Finland. Okay, so. So, the question then is like, okay, why do you burn stoves inside? Is it just because you fucking need to? Because there's like, otherwise you'll freeze to death? Emil: You don't, so you don't necessarily need to. It does help, right? It does help with especially the form of hypothermia that's kind of creeping hypothermia that you you get warm once a day in the evening. That you...and it's also like a psychological thing. It's having warm food, knowing that you'll have warm food. It's also...well actually you do need to because you need... Margaret: And you can't look outside because it's too cold? Emil: And you need, and you need, you need water as well. You need to melt snow to drink. Margaret: Oh shit. Yeah. Emil: Yeah, yeah. So you do actually need a burner. You can theoretically melt snow by just putting it in a, some sort of a plastic bottle and heating it with your body heats, so keeping it close to your body while you walk. But, it's not very efficient. Yeah, so and it's also the social psychological aspect of, "You know even though I'm cold now, I know that when I get to camp tonight I will be warm." Right? Margaret: So does that mean y'all's tents...Like in my head when I think about tents in the continental US where I live, there's like three-season tents and then four-season tents, and four-season tents are just like honestly...they're almost like more windproof and they just have like fewer events, right? And they're heavier. And then there's like lighter shit like single wall tents, and little pyramid tents with no floor, and all that stuff. But like...but overall, we have three season four season tents. But then I'm like aware of this thing that just is not part of my life because I don't live in the North--if you ask some southerners I do, but, you know, that's a political distinction and not a how-much-snow-is-that distinction [noise of something hitting the floor]...I just dropped something that scared my dog. But then, I'm aware that there's like these tents that have stove jacks and stuff and you can vent out a chimney and shit. Is that like what y'all are fucking with? Are y'all just basically taking the same four-season tents as us and then like putting a burner in there and like hoping you get the flame right? Emil: Yeah, it's essentially a four-season tent. Yeah. So, the last one. You can, if you do dog sledding, for example, or you use a snowmobile then you can do the really big heavy duty tents with...what did you call it? Margaret: The stove jack. Emil: Stove jacks. Yeah, right. So yeah, it's the chimney, right? Margaret: Yeah Emil: Yeah. So, you can do that. But, I think those are more used for base camps because they're so big and heavy. So, it's more of a four-season tent and then you have like, you know, you have an outer tent and an inner tent, right, so you can cook food in the outer tent, but you can also bring the stove inside the inner tent as long as you're careful with all your sleeping bags and all that stuff. If that squared away, you can put the, you can put the stove on a wooden plate, for example. You can just jury-rig that system. And then, if you then burn inside the inner tent, it can be easily 20 degrees Celsius. I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit, but it's like a nice comfortable temperature. Margaret: Nice and warm. Yeah, I want to say it's around 70 [degrees Fahrenheit] or so. Yeah,, let me actually do this math for our listeners. 68. Yeah, I was close. Yeah. The the ideal temperature in a lot of ways. Emil: Exactly. Margaret: Yeah. Okay, because I cannot imagine bringing a stove inside my...like the way that I grew up, you know, I mean, we would have like...I would camp in...Well, this is going to be non-mutually intelligible. I guess I'll just keep this thing up. You know, it's like I've camped in like five degrees Fahrenheit, right? Which is like negative fifteen. That's about as cold I've camped and it would never occur to me to heat my tent. But, I know a lot of people do do that. And then the other thing...Okay, the other question I have is: do people use little...like what I use in my like cabin and I use in my truck is like a little one burner, a little propane heater that's like meant for inside safeness. Do people use those? Like, why the stove? Is that so they have only one thing that both melts your water and keeps you warm or like...I'm so afraid of this carbon monoxide thing. I'm just like, we need to come up with something different. Emil: Yeah. No, the carbon monoxide poisoning is definitely something to be aware of. The key there is to check your flame and check that you have a blue flame. So, you can do that by, and you can improve that by...Like, when you have a gasoline burner, usually you have a pump to pressurize the gas container. Sometimes you have to pressurize the pump to make sure that you have a blue flame but it's...You can use like propane or butane, but that is mostly used in the summer because when it gets cold enough those gases don't really work anymore. Margaret: Are you fucking kidding me? Goddammit. Emil: No, no. Margaret: Okay, I believe you. I was trying to figure out why the fuck you use gasoline. So, this makes sense. Okay. Emil: Yeah, you use gasoline because gasoline works in extremely cold temperatures. [Margaret unintelligibly interrupts] Margaret: Go ahead. Sorry. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Emil: No, you can get like, you can get like special propane, butane that can do a bit colder. But if it's going to be really cold, you do want gasoline. Essentially. Margaret: When you say really cold--I have a suspicion that we have different conceptions of how cold the world can get--can you give me an example of what you're talking about? Like how cold are we talking about? Emil: Yeah, I mean, so butane and propane, at least I think butane, stops working at, let's say, I don't know, 20...I'm looking at the Celsius to Fahrenheit calculator. 20 degrees Fahrenheit? Maybe? It's below freezing, right? Margaret: Yeah. Emil: So like, a bit below freezing, the gases kind of stop working as they should. But then if we're talking about really cold, my definition of like, really, really cold would be something like 22 below Fahrenheit. Right? That's really cold. Margaret: Okay, what's the coldest you've camped in? This is like, I'm just literally just curious. Emil: Yeah, it's around there. It's around 22 below 0 in Fahrenheit terms. Margaret: I think that's roughly the coldest I've ever experienced in my life and that was not camping. I'm very grateful. Emil: That sort of cold really sort of saps the warmth out of you, right? It really kind of...you feel your heat is being stolen by the environment. You have to be constantly moving. Margaret: So, that actually leads to one of the other questions I have about all of this. Whenever I read about people in Antarctica or the Arctic, it talks about like...because in my head you know, if you're cold, you put on more layers, but I'm aware of this thing where like, if you're hiking and like climbing and doing all this shit, you kind of can't just do that because then you like sweat and die. Like... Emil: Yeah. Margaret: What kind of clothing? Like what do you need clothing-wise to go on an Arctic expedition in the winter? Emil: Right. So you want, you want wool as your base layer. It's also--I think in English, it's referred to as a wicking layer--because it dries, it basically takes the moisture away from your body, right? And it's also...wool is also warm when it gets wet, or warmer than cotton, for example. Yeah, so you want wool as a base layer and then maybe you want, if it's really cold, you might have a second warm layer and then a jacket. You can have, if you're standing still or you're in camp, you can do a down jacket. When you're walking, it's quite common to use just a shell jacket, shell pants that are windproof and waterproof, but that's what you're walking in. And also, it's a constant sort of, it's a constant adjustment, where you're putting on and taking off layers as you're walking as well quite often. So if you're walking up...if you sort of, you've been walking flat and then you come to sort of a pass that you have to climb or a mountain that is...like a steep hill, you might take off the layers, but you have to be adjusting. Okay, but to the sweat thing, like...Yes. No sweating is like...the ideal situation is to be dry. But you are going to sweat. And I think sort of the whole, "If you sweat, you die," thing is kind of overblown as long as you can dry--and that's another reason why you would want a stove in your tend, so you can dry your clothes in the evening. Margaret: Okay, okay. We say cotton kills because it's alliterative. Is it alliterative in Norwegian also or no? Emil: Yeah, you mean you can...Yeah, I think so. Margaret: Okay, because that's one of the phrases I learned when I was very young about not wearing cotton is, "Cotton kills." Although that is a little bit with the like, "Everything will murder you," theory. Although, it sounds like in the Arctic more things will actually murder you than usual. But, alright, well, I feel like I could talk about this for the whole hour. But, there's a bunch of other stuff I want to talk to you about. And, one of the questions I have is, as I read a lot of stuff about climate change and one of the main things that it talks about is like the disappearing ice and the like, the impact this is having on the polar areas of the world. And, and that is completely hypothetical in my head, right? I've only seen a glacier with binoculars. On the other hand, I would have seen a lot more glaciers in Glacier National Park if I had been there 20 years earlier. So clearly, this is an impact. But, how has it...like what does it look like on the ground for climate change? Emil: I can give you two examples. One example is from Svalbard, which is a Norwegian owned archipelago. It's north of Iceland and east of Greenland. It's quite close to the North Pole where I spent a year doing an arctic nature guide course. And on Svalbard, the thing is, Svalbard does have polar bear, right? And polar bears are classified as marine mammals for a reason. That's that they spend a lot of time out on the ice, right, hunting seals. Seals are what they eat. And with the warming climate, Svalbard is actually one of the warmest...or one of the fastest warming places on Earth. It has been...it's warmed, I think 4 degrees Celsius for the past, or over the past 50 years. So, since the 1970s, that's 4 degrees, right? We're talking about the global average of 1.5. Celsius. So, that gives you a sense of the scale of warming in the in the north, in the Arctic, heating up really quickly. And so one of the things that happens is because the ice is melting, the sea ice, polar bears are increasingly hungry and losing their sort of winter habitat, right, so they're more on the archipelago itself instead of out on the sea. Margaret: Are you leading up to they attack more people? Is that what's happening? Emil: Yeah. Yeah. Margaret: Oh, fuck. Oh no. Because then people shoot them and then they die. Emil: Exactly. Margaret: Okay. Please continue. Sorry. Emil: Yeah, no, that's what's happening. So, there's two things, right, they're hungrier and they are in the same places people are, right. And so they...it's it's increasing. The polar-human conflict is increasing because there are more polar bears coming into camp. And they're hungrier, so they're more motivated to find food, right. So, that's--which is again, sort of exacerbating the loss of number of polar bears, right? So, it's kind of like it's a double whammy. It's both the climate and then the climate is impacting human-polar bear relations. If you want to put it that way. Margaret: Okay... Emil: So, then I have another example. Margaret: Yeah, and then I'm going to ask you about fighting polar bears. Okay. Emil: Awesome. So, in Northern Norway, the only indigenous people in sort of Western Europe is in Northern Norway, the Sámi people. So Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Russia. And one of the sort of main components of Sámi culture, at least today, as we know it today, is reindeer herding. And so what happens--and the reindeer eat moss from the ground also in the wintertime--And so what happens is when the winters get warmer, you have more of these freeze...these what do you call them...Cycles... Margaret: Oh, like when it defrosts and then freezes again? Emil: Yeah, exactly. It melt-freeze cycles [melt-thaw cycles] which creates ice. Which makes it more difficult for the reindeer to find food because they have to kick through the ice layer to get to the moss. And so this is impacting indigenous livelihoods as well. I wanted to bring that up, too. Margaret: Yeah, no, no, that's...it's absolutely worth bringing up. And then I think that one of the things about this melt-freeze cycle, I was talking with one of my friends who lives in Canada who like has...like, in rural Canada, where it snows more than half the year, which is not my experience. Where I live, it could snow, you know, three or four months of the year. And, it seems when you when you're somewhere where, like where I live, where it constantly melts and freezes, it seems like a nightmare to have nine months of snow it seems unlivable. Right? I'm like, "How does anyone do it?" And I was having a long conversation with my friend about it. And one of their main points was that like, it stays snow. And so it's navigable in a way that like...you know, when it snows here, the road is fine, because I have a big truck, but the next day, it's fucked because the next day the sun has melted enough of it and then it's frozen overnight. And then like...and if more snow falls, it's snow on top of ice and then the roads are just fucked. You know? So I just...it's interesting to think about that also fucking up moss and fucking up...It makes sense. But I don't know. Okay, my other...Okay, I have two questions about all this. One, is it just heartbreaking? To like, actually visually see more of this happening? Because we have like, "oh, the weather's really fucking weird." And we have a few more like disasters, right? But I'm not watching permafrost melt. I'm not watching glaciers recede. I'm not watching the place that I go...like, I'm not trying to bum you out. But, I'm like...How do you know? How do you cope? Emil: You know, it's it's difficult. I think. I don't think I have a good answer for you. Yes, it is depressing, right? And so I think one coping mechanism could be just taking that sort of sorrow and anger and putting it towards political action. I think that sort of...I think that's what I'm doing. Also, just like, getting really mad at politicians, just going around thinking all day, like, "Fucking Prime Minister. Fucking," you know? You could just, you could just be angry. It's okay to just be angry, you know? That's...that's fine. But, yeah. No, it is, I think, especially for the people who live in these landscapes and have their lives and livelihoods intimately connected to these landscapes, it's...we think of climate change as an existential threat in the abstract, but for them, it's already sort of in their lives, you know? And so yeah, I do think it's...it's, it's closer, kind of. It's not just on TV. It's in this valley you're moving through, you know? Margaret: Yeah. And having it be different every year, probably every year that you go into it. Okay, well, that brings me my other...It doesn't actually but my other question from what you were just saying. Alright, so how do you fight polar...like, you're saying that it increases, like, conflict and so it's like two questions, like, one, is like...I'm sort of aware I'm gonna get some of this wrong--I know how to deal with black bears because they are black bears where I live, which is that you have to like, stand up to them, right? You'd be like, "Hey, fuck you, black bear. I'm bigger than you," which is like a lie, right? But they're like, "Ahh, alright, whatever." And they fuck off. And it's like sketchy. And it like confuses me that I have friends who do this on a regular basis who are like forest defenders, you know. And I've only had to do it like, a handful times in my life and let it stay that way. That would be great. And then we have like grizzly bears are like the biggest thing that we worry about, right? Because like--and I don't worry about them because I don't live in Alaska--but like, the polar bears are like...they're like mythical to me, right? They're like, oh, you know, there's bears. And then there's like dire bears, which are grizzly bears. And then there's dragons. There's just dragons in the north. And that's the polar bears. They are this like mythical fucking thing. And so the concept of like...like I've stood guard for bears or like, when you have a forest defense camp in the Pacific Northwest, people have to do bear duty where they sit around and like, throw rocks at bears that are trying to come into camp and shit, right? But I can't imagine what that is like with polar bears. I want like a fucking palisade, and like, like spotlights, and like helicopters, and shit. Like, like, what is the...How do you deal with polar bears? Emil: Yeah, so, I think it's much the same way that you deal with other kinds of bears. The only thing is that, I mean polar bears can be really, really persistent. I believe they're the only bear species that is known to actively hunt humans in emergencies. Margaret: [Laughing] I mean, it makes sense. They're a lot bigger than us. Yeah. Emil: Yeah, but it's actually, it's only in emergencies because it's a caloric loss project for them. The reason they eat seals is because seals are so fatty. And fat has more than twice the amount of calories per pound than carbohydrates and protein. So, like most of us aren't as fat as a seal. So it's...they don't do it unless they absolutely have to. But you do...When you're out in a big group, you do polar bear guard, right, whenever you have camp. 24/7. That means getting out of your comfortable warm sleeping bag where you're snug at three o'clock at night and going out for an hour and grabbing the rifle and standing guard from from three to four, right, in the middle of night or in the early morning hours. But, you do, you have some sort of signal flare, usually, that is for scaring the bear away. So, you you can have...it's like a small explosive fired out of a flare gun that...it's just like a flash bang essentially, right. It's a really big loud boom. And then you also carry a rifle, usually, you can also, some people carry magnums. I have seen... Margaret: By Magnum, you mean a large pistol? Emil: [Said while Margaret interrupts Emil] I have seen Glocks for sale....Yeah. By Magnum, I mean, like a .44 Magnum revolver. Margaret: Yeah. Okay. Emil: Yeah, a nine millimeter. I have seen some Glocks for sale. That's not really going to be very effective. You need a big round like a .308. Margaret: There's 10mm. Yeah. And they're like, I mean, actually, for Grizzlies and for black bears, you're better off, instead of a gun, you're better off with bear spray. It's just like, statistically, more effective at deterring a bear is to get sprayed with bear spray than to get shot. I don't know about polar bears. But like, but I know that 10mm is a round that is often carried by people who are in Alaska or are in places where like, big fucking game is like a thing that they worry about, you know? Anyway, I didn't mean to cut you off. I'm just like, geeking out about it. But, so the rifle that you're carrying is .308? Emil: Yeah, usually .308. Sometimes .30-06 Springfield, [pronounced thirty-aught-six] usually .308 Winchester. That's kind of the standard, and then some people carry essentially big handguns as well. It's lighter to carry a revolver. But, obviously it has sort of like less range and stuff. But it's less...it's more difficult to shoot a pistol than a rifle, but I have to say it's...it's shooting a polar bear is not something that you should do. There an endangered species. It's actually, it's illegal. It's illegal to shoot a polar bear in Norway. The hunting was banned in the 70s. So, when you shoot a polar bear on Svalbard, in self-defense, it's treated as essentially like a murder case. Margaret: But you just like, prove it was self-defense? Emil: You prove self-defense, essentially. So that's, that's very important to add that it is like a last resort. Margaret: Yeah. Do people use bear spray for polar bears or just not? Emil: You can you can use bear spray as well. But, I think the effective range of bear spray is so short that, sort of, people might not be comfortable with letting the bear get that close. Margaret: That's fair. I mean, I don't want to get that close to a...I've only seen a grizzly once it was through binoculars. And I was like, "This rules. This is the right distance. I'm so happy. I got to see a grizzly bear. It is checked off the list." Okay. Alright, so that's how you defend yourself against polar bears. How common...I mean, you're saying on Svalbard it's becoming more and more common, but it's like, is this a like...like, there's places where bears are like raccoons, you know, they're just kind of everywhere. But I assume that this is a kind of not the case, because they're pretty endangered. Emil: Yeah, not quite like raccoons, but they're quite common. I think--because the usual line about Svalbard is, you know, "The archipelago with more polar bears than people." Which has, which has a degree of truth to it. It's just that the polar bears are also distributed around the sea ice, around the island group, right? So, it's 2,500 people, and they reckon around 3,000 polar bears. So, it's quite common, quite common. It's not unusual to see a bear. But I didn't see one. Margaret: Okay, fair enough. Like, I want to go. I like, I've never been up where the sun doesn't actually set. I've been close, you know, Well, actually, I've done the opposite. I've been in the far north in the summer and had like 2am Twilight and I love it. Emil: It's so weird. It's like a super strange experience coming out of a nightclub at like, 4am and then the sun is just like shining straight in your face. Like, "No, I'm tired. I want to sleep." Like all the birds are circling around you and fucking making ungodly noises and it's...yeah, it's a surreal experience. I mean, it's...I've been partying all night and it's like, it's bright as day now. Margaret: Yeah, I'd feel betrayed. I'd be like...Yeah, I like it. But, I don't know how I would handle it if I lived there. I like that I get to experience that every now and then. And I don't know how I would handle the, you know, how--I don't know how many days of night it is--but you know, the sun not coming up thing. But, okay, one of the other things that you mentioned that you wanted to talk about, and I got really excited about, was how you spent a lot of your time in the outdoors, you spent a lot of your time guiding people and like and working with groups of people in dangerous and complicated situations. And I want to ask you about the decision making in that kind of environment and leadership structures. And also, you know, specifically how this led you towards more thinking about non-hierarchical organizing and anarchism and stuff like that. What was that like for you? Or, what's that? What is that like? Emil: Yeah, so, in my, during my studies, I've been outside, I've been working with a lot of different groups of, especially fellow students, and one of the things that struck me is that the...when we were out on trips, especially like study trips, all of the decision making was remarkably sort of consensus based. Rarely was there sort of a clear leader. It didn't really feel natural to have a clear leader. When we were...When we had differing opinions about which route to take, we would usually sort of discuss and people kind of fall into, sort of, the organizational structure where people just sort of take up tasks that they see need doing, you know, and things just kind of work themselves out. And it's also...Now, it is nice when you have the sort of structure to have sort of evening talks that are, for example, after dinner we have half an hour of like daily feedback, for example. "How did you do this day? Is there anything that's, you know, bothering you? Annoying you?" I think actually the Kurds have something similar? I don't remember the name. Margaret: It's called techmill. Emil: Techmill. Yeah, exactly. It's...So, we kind of had our own, like daily techmill when we were on hikes. And so this experience, really, I think, is one of the things that sort of pushed me towards anarchism, towards like, the idea of non-hierarchical social organization, or like self-organizing, because I see that it works even in sort of demanding contexts because the outdoors can be quite demanding. You're like tired, cold, wet. And yet still, just with like a bit of work, a bit of like good effort it works and works well. Margaret: Yeah. I love hearing this, because I like things that fit my presupposition about how the world works, but specifically, it's like, because it's the opposite of what everyone says. Everyone always says, like, "Oh, you can do consensus when it's like, no stakes. But as soon as you're in the backwoods you need a guy with big muscles to be like, "Nah, we got to go this way, then like," and everyone would just naturally..." It's just really cool to be like, this makes sense to me. They're like, "Oh, which route do we take?" "We should figure this out, not listen to what the captain says. Like, we should actually listen to everyone here. And come to conclusions, because this is all of our lives on the line. And there are a bunch of people who like know what they're doing. So we should ask all of them and figure it out." This makes complete sense to me. But it's completely the opposite of what everyone always says about this kind of situation. Yeah. Emil: I have to say there are specific situations that are...When when the risks are extremely high, when you're in an emergency, for example, if there's been an avalanche, it does make sense to have one person coordinating the whole thing, right? Margaret: That makes a lot of sense to me. Emi:l: Or, or...Yeah, same thing if, hypothetically, this is not just outdoors but like if you're being shot at, if you're in a group of people and you're like taking fire, right, it makes sense to have like one person who kind of, whose job it is to to keep their head on a swivel and kind of figure out what's going on and make some decisions because it needs to happen quickly, right? Since there may be someone stuck in an avalanche. But other than those sorts of extreme situations, right, that consensus works. Margaret: Yeah. Okay. And I actually really liked that you point this part out too, because I think a lot about like, when you're in a situation where someone's been grievously injured, the medic is in charge. And the medic can tell everyone what to do. And you just fucking do it. You know? Emil: Exactly. Margaret: Yeah. And that makes sense. Like, "This person is bleeding out. You go get me towels." Or...you don't need towels. Just whatever it is. Emil: Yeah, you're not going to spend 10 minutes discussing what to do and figuring out a plan together because by that time the person is already dead. Margaret: Right. And so that that actually does make a lot of sense to me. And then you have like, basically, these roles are filled based on the people who are most capable doing them. Like, the person who's been in a bunch of firefights, like...Yeah, maybe when we're planning the overall strategy we listen to the people who have the most strategic knowledge, but it's still "we figure it out together." But yeah, like no, if someone's shooting at me, and someone's like, "You go there. Shoot back. You do this. You do that." Like, I do like...To me, that's almost like...It's like the exploding brain of anarchism. Like, the bigger and bigger steps of it is being like, "Oh, no, sometimes you let people tell you what to do." Like, sometimes that's part of being a part of a functioning group. And then, okay, the other thing that I like about it, too, is that you're talking about like, okay, you have your conversations you have every evening and it's this balance because you're talking about how everyone kind of takes these roles. They're like, "Oh, what needs doing?" and then does it. But, then part of it is structured and so it's this mix of organic...It's like chaotic and structured all at the same time, you know? I really liked it. Emil: And it's not just...I mean, you can have I think social structure without hierarchy, right? Margaret: Yeah. Emil: So you can...So I mean, for me, hierarchy kind of implies a...kind of implies violence and coercion, right? Margaret: Yeah. Emil: But structure, social structure doesn't necessarily imply violence. Social structure can just be sort of something that emerges by itself and which can then be discussed in these evening conversations, for example. So, if a person sort of naturally falls into the role of cook for the group, right, that can be a form of social structure that just kind of emerges. But, if that person isn't happy in that role, it also helps to have these sort of regular scheduled conversations where those sorts of things can be discussed, right? And maybe we want to...maybe they want to do something different the next day, or like, maybe we can like switch tasks. Margaret: Yeah. Emil: Right? And so, but this actually comes to something that I think is sort of important here and that's that the outdoors is actually a fantastic arena for forming social connections and group, sort of, bonds, and also political...and also, like, within political groups. Like there's a reason why in the 20th century outdoor activities, outdoor recreations, like the Scouts and those types of stuff, but that type of stuff was actually taken up by all the mass political movements, socialists, and communists, and anarchists, and fascists. All to use the outdoors as like an arena, right? But, I think as, as the--because it works really well--but as our societies have sort of Neo-liberalized and individualized and kind of also de-politicized in a way, I think that sort of, the outdoors as a political arena, that idea, has sort of faded away. And I think actually, for us as anarchists, that's something that we can kind of take back. We can use the outdoors as a fantastic place to get to know each other and to practice anarchism, to form group bonds, and to just train. And it's also just like fun. It's a nice thing to do. Margaret: I'm really excited by this idea. That makes so much sense to me. I think about like...I mean, one, literally being in Boy Scouts is a very formative experience for my life, right? And I like go back to the stuff I learned there constantly. And I was only in there for a couple years, because then I got like to cool. And like, you know, quit or whatever. And and then yeah, like, as I read about social movements in 20th century, I read about, you know, the hiking clubs in Weimar era Germany that the communist, the fascist, and the anarchists all did things with. And the like, wild, queer kids who didn't really have a political label would also go do. And yeah, and then the Spanish anarchists had sports clubs as a huge part of what they were doing. No, this is really interesting to me. And then because even like when you're describing all this stuff--because I've been getting more and more into hiking--and one of the things that when you're talking, like one of the reasons I want to ask about all the Arctic stuff is like not because I really think that there's a really good chance that I'm going to have to move over mountains personally, right? But knowing how feels like really useful to me and interesting to me. And then also like, going out and practicing and learning seems like fun, you know, and a good way to...And even...Okay, when I was talking about, when I was asking you how to cope with climate change, one of the things that I've been doing--and I don't know whether it's like good or not, but it's been working a little bit for me--is to kind of embrace seeing more and like experiencing more--and not necessarily just like tourist and traveling--but like literally just hiking around where I live and just like feeling the Spring, you know, like getting out and being like, "Spring is here." This winter was weird. We had a really dry, warm winter here. The west coast the US had the exact opposite. You know, but like, being like okay, how is this Spring different than last Spring? I want to be able to start really building that and being like, well if this is the last bits of the Earth being like this, let's fucking enjoy it. Let's do this shit. Emil: Yeah, I agree completely. Yeah, it's one of the things where I think a lot of people...because being outdoors, we've talked a lot about the practical and a little bit about the political, it also has an existential dimension. People go outdoors to feel a sense of peace, or time for reflection, or to get into, there's a particular rhythm to, to hiking, for example. And it also has a spiritual aspect actually for a lot of people. So you can, what some people experience is that like, as they spend time outdoors, they feel a sense of sort of connection, or a being in place, feeling like a part of a network of relations to the landscape around them to the flora and the fauna. And from that can actually emerge, kind of animism as well. Like, if I'm wandering alongside a river, for example, in a valley and I'm fantasizing, I'm starting to think about this river as sort of having a life or like having a life force that sort of an animistic thought, and it doesn't mean that--and it sort of arises naturally, I think--and it doesn't mean that I literally think that the river has a consciousness, for example. But it's an expression of this idea that this river in this valley is central to a sort of network of relations. It's thinking ecologically. So, I think getting in touch with that side of things as well can be really--you talked about how to cope with what you asked about how to cope with like, climate grief--I think just sort of getting in touch in that way, can be a way to...or just like getting close, you know, to the landscape, to this network of relations. I think that can be a really sort of valuable personal experience and also an experience that you can have in groups, but perhaps wandering alone would be the best way to like get that. Margaret: That makes a lot of sense to me. And I feel like that might be a good note to end on, for people to reflect on. And yeah, I guess I want to say thank you so much for coming on. And do you have anything that you want to plug, either your own work or work of people that's around you that you want to draw attention to? Anything like that? Emil: Um, let me think, Oh, yeah. I mean, thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. I think I don't have anything to plug personally. But sort of on the last note that we were on, I would direct people towards a book called Becoming Animal: an Earthly Cosmology, by an American author called David Abram. He writes beautifully about, he takes a phenomenological perspective for those who know what that is. And he writes beautifully about exactly what we've been talking about now, sort of getting in touch with this network of relations. Yeah, I think that's what I would point people towards. Margaret: Fuck yeah. I like that. I like that your plug is a book. That makes me happy. I mean, I haven't read the book yet. But now I'm gonna check it out. Alright, well, thank you so much. And I'm probably going to at some other point have you on to ask more questions about how to walk over frozen lakes. Emil: That would be awesome. And also glaciers. We didn't know mention glaciers. Margaret: That was one of my questions I didn't ask. Yeah, I know. I know. All right. Well, we'll have to we'll have to have you back. But yeah, thank you so much. Emil: I would love to be back. Yeah, that'd be awesome. Margaret: Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell people about the show. Tell people about it on the internet, or in real life, or in the Arctic, which is part of real life. Believe it or not. If you want to support us more directly, you can do so by supporting us on Patreon patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness because this podcast is produced by Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. We are a collective that publishes anarchistic culture stuff, Fiction, essays, memoir, podcasts, obviously podcasts. There's this podcast. There's another podcast called Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. There's another one called Anarcho Geek Power Hour and there will hopefully be other ones soon too that you all can hear. And if you support us on Patreon we will send you all kinds of stuff in the mail as a thanks every month. And also, some of you we'll thank directly. In fact, we're going to thank Hoss the Dog. Michaiah, Chris, Sam, Kirk, Eleanor, Jenipher, Staro, Kat J., Chelsea, Dana, David, Nicole, Mikki, Paige, SJ, Shawn, Hunter, Theo, Boise Mutual Aid, Milica, Paparouna, Aly, Paige, Janice and O'dell, Oxalis, and Jans. Thank you all so much, and I hope everyone is doing as well as you can. And hopefully I will talk to you soon while we're trying to convince the polar bears that they're on the same side as us. And that together we can destroy the thing that's destroying the world together. Us and the polar bears. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

In the middle of the night, you find yourself caught between dream and wakefulness, unable to move, unable to scream, with the feeling that someone's sitting on your chest. There are many names for this condition. Sleep paralysis. The Old Hag. The Nightmare. Mara. With returning guest, performance storyteller Dominic Kelly, we delve into this fascinating phenomenon that is deeply entrenched in the borderlands of folklore and belief. Dominic Kelly's website http://dominickelly.net/ See MARA at Stealing Thunder storytelling festival in England on 3rd june 2023 https://stealingthunder.co.uk/ Helgoya Fortellerfestival in Norway on 5th august 2023 https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100092327174348 Bird sounds recorded by Ulf Elman https://xeno-canto.org/762155 Jelmer Poelstra https://xeno-canto.org/235198 CONNECT WITH US https://www.intheborderlands.com/ SUPPORT US https://www.patreon.com/IntheBorderlands https://www.brittle.one/ https://smarturl.it/inanna REFERENCES Mara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_(folklore) Sleep paralysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis Sleep Paralysis på Shelley R Adler (book) https://www.rutgersuniversitypress.org/sleep-paralysis/9780813548869 Hmong people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hmong_people Nocebo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo The Old Hag of Newfoundland https://nuvomagazine.com/culture/canadian-urban-legends-newfoundlanders-can-tell-you-all-about-the-old-hag The Nightmare (film) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3317522/?ref_=vp_close The Terror That Comes in the Night by David J. Hufford (book) https://books.google.ca/books/about/The_Terror_That_Comes_in_the_Night.html?id=Qsd0CAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false Hälsingland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4lsingland Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker (book) https://books.google.se/books/about/Why_We_Sleep.html?id=mIh4swEACAAJ&redir_esc=y Granskogsfolk by David Thurfjell (book) https://www.norstedts.se/bok/9789113102771/granskogsfolk The Dreaming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dreaming Avebury https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avebury West Kennet Long Barrow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Kennet_Long_Barrow Hallucinations by Oliver Sachs (book) https://www.oliversacks.com/oliver-sacks-books/hallucinations/ The Spell of the Sensuous by David Abram (book) https://www.davidabram.org/books The Encounter by Simon McBurney/Complicité (performance) http://www.complicite.org/productions/TheEncounter Reservoir 13 by John McGregor (book) https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34146665-reservoir-13 Ravens in Winter by Bernd Heinrich (book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravens_in_Winter

Bar Talk (our recommendations):Kevan is reading The Spell of the Sensuous by David Abram; drinking the Ardbeg.Jessica is reading All the White Spaces by Ally Wilkes; drinking New Deal Distillery Bootstrap Whiskey.Damien is reading Our Share of Night by Mariana Enriquez; drinking Hibiki Japanese Harmony.Ryan is reading The Strange by Nathan Ballingrud; drinking Auchentoshan 12yr single malt.If you liked this week's interview, read ecofiction, tell stories in the Bardic tradition, and acknowledge the neurochemical storm in every person's brain. Also, check out Kevan Manwaring's other works in Panorama Journal and his latest collection, Ballad Tales: An Anthology of British Ballads Retold.Up next: Season 5! Join us as we investigate... The Ghost Slayers: Thrilling Tales of Occult Detection, edited by Mike Ashley.Special thank you to Dr Blake Brandes for our Whiskey and the Weird music! Like, rate, and follow! Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and at whiskeyandtheweird.com

In the five episode series, Kosha Countdown to Earth Day, today is Manomayakosha, the thinking, feeling, sensing, earth body. It's poetic that both hosts arrived, ready to record, after not having enough sleep and feeling a bit off in the mind. Since these are casual conversations and perfection is not the aspiration, they showed up as they were, playing with language and memory as aspects of Manomayakosha. Nature is a complete system that reflects our own experiences. When looked at through various filters, the view becomes fuller. The limitations of language yield to other forms of communication, new maps lead to deeper understanding.Following are sources and quotes used in the show:Book: The Spell of the SensuousReview of The Spell of the Sensuous by Thomas Berry, author of “The Dream of the Earth”“The outer world of nature is what awakens our inner world in all its capacities for understanding, affection and aesthetic appreciation. The wind, the rain, the mountains and rivers, the woodlands and meadows and all their inhabitants; we need these perhaps even more for our psyche than for our physical survival. No one that I know of has presented all this with the literary skill as well as the understanding that we find in this work of David Abram. It should be one of the most widely read and discussed books of these times.”Because it was very briefly mentioned, here's one of many links to the Lost Colony of Roanoke.Quotes:According to the yoga philosophy, Manomayakosha is the seat of memory and emotions. –- Yoga JournalThe practice of yoga and meditation is believed to help clear the blockages in the Moanomayakosha and improve memory retention. -- The Art of LivingThe practice of pranayama, or breathing exercises, is believed to help balance the Manomayakosha and improve memory function. -- The Chopra CenterThe Manomayakosha is also associated with the senses, which play a role in the process of memory retrieval. -- The Yoga InstituteThe beauty of nature can inspire artists to create works that reflect their inner thoughts and emotions. -- The Artistic and Creative Power of Mother Nature” by A. SicilianoSpending time in nature can have a healing effect on the mind and body, helping us to feel refreshed and renewed. – The Healing Power of Mother Nature by S. GuptaSeeing the beauty of the Earth can inspire us to take action to protect it and preserve it for future generations. -- The Beauty of the Earth: A Call to Action for Environmental Protection by R. GonzalezMemories can serve as a map, guiding us through life's challenges, much like how maps help us navigate the earth's terrain. -- ForbesJust as the earth goes through cycles of growth and decay, memories can be seen a part of a cycle of remembering and forgetting. -- The Atlantic ***YOGAFEST: Information & Registration. [Early Bird Registration is now closed]Anecdotal Anatomy's workshop, Kosha Yoga, will be held at the Indoor auditorium space from...

In what ways might the roots of the internet actually stretch back much further than we think? Does the internet enhance or distort our humanness? How is our deepening entanglement with algorithms shaping how we think and what we pay attention to? Justin E. H. Smith is a professor at the Department of History and Philosophy of Science at the Université Paris Cité, and is a writer of both non-fiction, fiction and poetry. His latest book is The Internet is Not What You Think It Is: A History, a Philosophy, a Warning, in which he traces the deep history of the internet and asks where these technologies may be taking us next. His previous books include Irrationality: A History of the Dark Side of Reason and Divine Machines: Leibniz and the Sciences of Life. He posts regularly on Substack at Justin E. H. Smith's Hinternet. LINKS: Justin's book The Internet is Not What You Think It Is: https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691212326/the-internet-is-not-what-you-think-it-is Justin's Substack: https://justinehsmith.substack.com Justin's book on Gottfried Leibniz: https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691141787/divine-machines David Abram on technology and animism: https://emergencemagazine.org/essay/magic-and-the-machine/ James William's Stand out of our light (Ted Talk based on book of same name: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaIO2UIvJ4g Yves Citton on the Ecology of attention: https://www.wiley.com/en-us/The+Ecology+of+Attention-p-9781509503735 Support us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/forestofthought Share and subscribe. We're available on most podcast apps, including: Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2ue3XA6IQQLC05FQMINuy1 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/…/podcast/forest-of…/id1508610729 Links to all platforms: https://anchor.fm/forestofthought Our theme music is by Christian Holtsteen at stoneproduction.no.

“We need geopoetics because geopolitics necessitate other ways of being… Proposing alternate narratives to the hegemonic ones we are caught in is the work and play of geopoetics.”– Erin Robinsong, Geopoetics in the Mess/MeshEnclosed is the last episode of our 4th season: a sympoietic stream of consciousness; on language, art making, and more-than-human interconnection.Find a transcript, full credits, and citations here– – –We want to hear from you! Please take our brief listener surveySupport our 5th season: Join our community on Patreon– – –The feet are the linkBetween earth and the body. Begin there.The lungs are the link between body and air.The hands, these uprooted feet, are the meansOf our shaping and grasping. Clasp them.The eyes are the hands of the head;its feet are the ears. – Robert Bringhurst– – –With the voices and words of Michael Datura, Astrida Neimanis, Cosmo Sheldrake, Rex Weyler, Robert Bringhurst, Jan Zwicky, David Abram, Megan Gnanasihamany, Stephen Collis, Eric Magrane, Hari Alluri, Nadia Chaney, Kaitlyn Purcell, Khari McClelland, Rita Wong, Jessica Bebenek, Vicki Kelly, Mark Fettes, Marjorie Wonham, and Cecily NicholsonMusic by Cosmo Sheldrake, Anne Bourne, Meredith Buck (as arranged by Vanessa Richards), Jonathan Kawchuk, the Time Zone Research Lab, Emily Millard, Khari McClelland, Ruby Singh, and Nathan Shubert, with field recordings by Julian Fisher.

Paul, Alex and Ioan talk about searching for an intentional community, how to find the place and the people you can belong to, and community with the land you live on. Paul d'Aoust @helioscomm is a member of an unintentional intentional community, living, eating, making music, and gardening with hiswith his wife, kids, and in-laws on an acreage in western Canada. He is trying, usually falteringly, to live more deeply into communal living and all the joys and pains that come with it. Paul works with Holochain, a framework for building applications that support thriving communities by making it easy to set up community-owned infrastructure. Alex Wagner @alexdw5 is a writer. He publishes a weekly newsletter titled, Things That Should Exist, focusing on practical ways to build interdependence and resiliency in a changing world. He's also a singer-songwriter and artist, publishing music under the moniker, Alex Time. https://thingsthatshouldexist.substack.com/ https://alextimer.bandcamp.com/album/demos-2022 Ioan @awarenesss is trying to build community on land: http://elkenmist.substack.com and in the city @bridgespacepdx Here are some thanks and links to some of the people and inspirations that came up in the conversation: Dare Sohei from https://animistarts.art for the concept of secure attachment to land and other more than human beings. David Abram https://davidabram.org Ron Rivers https://singletruth.org

There are old folktales and legends of people who can become animals. Animals who can become people. And there's a lesson for our own time in those shapeshifting stories — a recognition that the membrane between what's human and more-than-human is razor thin. Human identity cannot be separated from our nonhuman kin. From forest ecology to the human microbiome, emerging research suggests that being human is a complicated journey made possible only by the good graces of our many companions. In partnership with the Center for Humans and Nature and with support from the Kalliopeia Foundation, To The Best Of Our Knowledge is exploring this theme of "kinship" in a special radio series. To learn more about the Kinship series, head to ttbook.org/kinship. Original Air Date: November 20, 2021 Interviews In This Hour: Reclaiming the fierce women who are shapeshifters — How a man turned into a raven — Shapeshifters, shamans and the 'New Animism' — Horror author Stephen Graham Jones on what our monsters say about us Guests: Sharon Blackie, David Abram, Chris Gosden, Stephen Graham Jones Never want to miss an episode? Subscribe to the podcast. Want to hear more from us, including extended interviews and favorites from the archive? Subscribe to our newsletter.

I've mentioned this book numerous times on the pod. It's fair to say that David Abram's The Spell of the Sensuous and Robin Wall Kimmerer's Braiding Sweetgrass are the two books that really kicked off the idea for In the Weeds. And it feels like time to dig into Spell. All the more so since my current episodes are exploring the question “how did we get here?” Not only how did we materially arrive at our current environmental crisis but how did we, in the West, develop a culture that led to this mess, a culture that separates the human sphere from the natural world?Environmentalists have been debating this question for some time and, as Abram himself acknowledges, there is not just one answer, though he does propose an intriguing one in Spell that I talked about in our last episode:  that the invention of the alphabet might have had something to do with it. To discuss The Spell of the Sensuous, I reached out to Trevien Stanger, instructor of environmental studies and science at St. Michael's College in Vermont and all around smart and thoughtful guy.We examine the two influences that support Abram's shift from a mechanistic to an animist view of the world: phenomenology, a philosophical movement started by the German philosopher Edmund Husserl in the early 20th century, and the teachings of indigenous shamans that Abram encountered during his travels as an itinerant sleight-of-hand magician in Southeast Asia. Most of all, we try to understand what it would mean to experience the world the way that Abram would want us to, as a dynamic and relationally-rich encounter with the more-than-human.There's a lot to unpack and we take our time, so we only get about a third of the way into the book. We will continue our discussion in an upcoming episode.And, yes, I have a cold :)

Ron Wakkary is a professor of design at Simon Fraser University's School of Interactive Arts and Technology in Canada. He is also a professor, holding the Chair of Design for More Than Human-Centered Worlds, in the industrial design department at Eindhoven University of Technology in the Netherlands.Ron is the founder of the design research studio Everyday Design Studio (EDS). At EDS, he works with Will Odom and an evolving cast of students to produce multi-disciplinary design research that is highly engaged with the practice and craft of design. For UX designers and industrial designers looking for ideas and inspiration from social sciences, humanities, and philosophy executed in design artifacts, the work from EDS is a fantastic resource.Ron recently published the book Things We Could Design: For More Than Human-Centered Worlds via MIT Press. The book packages his research focused on “post-humanist design” rather than human-centered design, bringing non-human stakeholders like nature, climate, and biological diversity into the focus of design methodology.Transcript: https://designdisciplin.com/ron:: Related Links+ Book: Design Research through Practice by Koskinen et al.: https://geni.us/design-research-thr+ Book: Discipline & Punish by Michel Foucault: https://geni.us/discipline-and-punish+ Everyday Design Studio: https://eds.siat.sfu.ca/+ Book: In Praise of Shadows by Junichiro Tanizaki: https://geni.us/in-praise-of-shadows+ Book: Reinventing Organizations by Frederic Laloux: https://geni.us/reinventing-org+ Book: Staying with the Trouble by Donna Haraway: https://geni.us/staying-with-the-troub+ Book: The Age of Surveillance Capitalism by Shoshana Zuboff: https://geni.us/age-of-surveillance+ Book: The Overstory by Richard Powers: https://geni.us/the-overstory+ Book: The Spell of the Sensuous by David Abram: https://geni.us/spell-of-the-sensuous+ Book: Things We Could Design by Ron Wakkary: https://geni.us/things-we-could-design+ Book: Vibrant Matter by Jane Bennett: https://geni.us/vibrant-matter+ Book: What Things Do by Peter-Paul Verbeek: https://geni.us/what-things-doFull list of related links: https://designdisciplin.com/ron :: Connect with Design Disciplin+ Website: http://designdisciplin.com​+ Podcast: http://podcast.designdisciplin.com​+ Instagram: http://instagram.com/designdisciplin/​+ Twitter: http://twitter.com/designdisciplin/​+ YouTube: http://youtube.com/designdisciplin:: Connect with Ron+ Twitter: https://twitter.com/ronwakkary+ Everyday Design Studio: http://eds.siat.sfu.ca/:: Episode Bookmarks00:00:00​ Intro00:01:26 Ron's Story00:13:35 Research through Design00:18:54 Ron's Practice00:22:26​ The Core Message in Ron's Book00:27:30 How To Put the Book in Practice00:34:45 "Designer as Biography / Force / Speaking Subject / Intensities and Origins"00:51:57 The Scope of Design vs. Other Disciplines00:58:50 "Nomadic Practice"01:21:55 Book Recommendations 01:27:00 What's Next for Ron01:33:00 Closing

“Letters have power,” Johanna Drucker tells me.  But what is the nature of this power and how did it all begin? Unlike writing, the alphabet was only invented once. Somewhere in Egypt or the Sinai Peninsula, about 4,000 years ago, speakers of a Semitic language adapted Egyptian hieroglyphics to represent the basic phonetic building blocks of their language.  All modern alphabets can be traced back to this origin.Johanna Drucker, Distinguished Professor and Breslauer Professor in the Department of Information Studies at UCLA, and author of numerous books, including her most recent, Inventing the Alphabet (University of Chicago Press, 2022), talks to me about this fascinating history, from what archeology has uncovered to the alphabet's central role in information technology. We also discuss a theory put forth by David Abram, in his book, The Spell of the Sensuous, that the alphabet opens “a new distance […] between human culture and the rest of nature,” as it turns our powers of perception inward and focuses our attention on human-made sounds and words. Links to some of the things we discuss: Two key archeological sites where inscriptions of the first alphabet have been found:  Serabit el-Khadim and Wadi el-Hol. Sandstone sphinx at the British Museum with Proto-Sinaitic letters. The Acrophonic principle. The Ahiram sarcophogus and shards found in Israel. Unicode. See also in-the-weeds.net.

Author, cultural ecologist, and geo philosopher David Abram has been an inspirational leading voice at the intersection of ecology and philosophy for over 25 years. A close student of the traditional ecological knowledge of a diverse array of Indigenous peoples, his work articulates the interconnection of humans both with the varied sensitivities of the plants and animals upon whom we depend, as well as with the agency of the places that surround and sustain our communities. In this episode, David is joined by CIIS philosophy faculty Matt Segall for an inspiring conversation on the wild intelligence of our bodies, the ecological depths of our imagination, and the ways in which sensory perception and wonder inform the relation between the human animal and the animate Earth. This episode was recorded during an in-person and live streamed event at First Unitarian Universalist Church & Center in San Francisco on May 19th, 2022. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. We hope that each episode of our podcast provides opportunities for growth, and that our listeners will use them as a starting point for further introspection. Many of the topics discussed on our podcast have the potential to bring up feelings and emotional responses. If you or someone you know is in need of mental health care and support, here are some resources to find immediate help and future healing: -Visit 988lifeline.org or text, call, or chat with The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline by dialing 988 from anywhere in the U.S. to be connected immediately with a trained counselor. Please note that 988 staff are required to take all action necessary to secure the safety of a caller and initiate emergency response with or without the caller's consent if they are unwilling or unable to take action on their own behalf. -Visit thrivelifeline.org or text “THRIVE” to begin a conversation with a THRIVE Lifeline crisis responder 24/7/365, from anywhere: +1.313.662.8209. This confidential text line is available for individuals 18+ and is staffed by people in STEMM with marginalized identities. -Visit translifeline.org or call (877) 565-8860 in the U.S. or (877) 330-6366 in Canada to learn more and contact Trans Lifeline, who provides trans peer support divested from police. -Visit ciis.edu/counseling-and-acupuncture-clinics to learn more and schedule counseling sessions at one of our centers. -Find information about additional global helplines at https://www.befrienders.org/.

Today I talk about mantra with delightful yogi/actor/tech pro Stephen Mark. We talk about how mantras work, how to use them, and how they fit into a yoga practice.During the episode, I mention an ecologist. His name is David Abram and I heard him here: https://emergencemagazine.org/interview/the-ecology-of-perception/I also mention a book by a neuroscientist. You can find out more about Dr. Mona Sobhani at https://monasobhaniphd.comPlease support Peter's Podcast on Patreon.Namaste

Today I'm joined by Jason Holley, an Astrologer/Psychotherapist currently residing in the island of Kauai in Hawaii. Jason's approach is imaginative, soulful, deep, profound, sacred and sometimes profane.We discuss his project of breathing life back into the signs of the Zodiac by embracing their underlying mythological roots, re-pairing Astrology's philosophical basis with that of the mythic from whence it was born. Our discussion begins with a sinking into the land that he joins me from, the small island of Kauai, and how life there tends to veer away from the productive and into the dreaming. This leads us into the inter-subjective layers of reality and the importance of bringing in the Self in our consulting work rather than imagining ourselves as 'objective observers'. As the conversation weaves and flows we find ourselves in a discussion of Zeus, or the Astrological planet Jupiter. We explore this figure beyond the typical ideas of the lofty king of the gods seated at the top of Mount Olympus and open up to his mutability, shape-shifting, being pulled into the messy experiences of Life, definitely NOT in charge. The cover for the episode is Jean François de Troy (1716) - The Abduction of Europa. Zeus in this painting has shape-shifted into the shape of a white bull and is being led by Eros into the ocean.-------------------------------------------------From his website, jasonholley.net:Jason Holley (he/they) has been a practicing astrologer for over 30 years and a psychotherapist (LPCC) for 15 years.  Jason facilitates living and embodied experiences of astrology through one-on-consultations, online and in-person study courses, seminars, immersive workshops, and retreats.  Jason's approach interweaves astrological symbolism, mythology and storytelling, depth psychology, astrodrama, art-making, dance and movement, and other experiential methods.  Jason has spoken and led workshops at most national and international astrological conferences in the US, UK, and Australia, and is a faculty member for Astrology University and MISPA online.This work responds to the deep longing for the remarriage of Eros and Psyche — of Love and Soul — in modern life; and the restoration of each person's felt sense of connection with our Circle of Animals inside and out: our ancestral, cultural, animal, natural, and spiritual relations.Jason is currently completing two books: Constellations of Meaning, a psychological exploration of the myths of each of the twelve zodiacal constellations; and Psychological Approaches to Sect, a consciousness-oriented re-imagining of the ancient teachings about Day and Night affinities in astrology.  -------------------------------------------------In this episode we mention:David Abram's books: Spell of the Sensuous and Becoming Animal.Merlin Sheldrake's Entangled Life.Jason has many courses available online as Astrology University which I highly recommend to those wanting to get bitten by the mythological astrological bug.Click to become a PatronWhat's that mesmerising soundtrack?  That's Marlia Coeur: Spotify

The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity (Routledge, 2020) brings the ecological turn to sociocultural understandings of self. Tema Milstein and José Castro-Sotomayor introduce a broad, insightful assembly of original theory and research on planetary positionalities in flux in the Anthropocene – or what in this Handbook cultural ecologist David Abram presciently renames the Humilocene, a new “epoch of humility.” Forty international authors craft a kaleidoscopic lens, focusing on the following key interdisciplinary inquiries: Part I illuminates identity as always ecocultural, expanding dominant understandings of who we are and how our ways of identifying engender earthly outcomes. Part II examines ways ecocultural identities are fostered and how difference and spaces of interaction can be sources of environmental conviviality. Part III illustrates consequential ways the media sphere informs, challenges, and amplifies particular ecocultural identities. Part IV delves into the constitutive power of ecocultural identities and illuminates ways ecological forces shape the political sphere. Part V demonstrates multiple and unspooling ways in which ecocultural identities can evolve and transform to recall ways forward to reciprocal surviving and thriving. The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity provides an essential resource for scholars, teachers, students, protectors, and practitioners interested in ecological and sociocultural regeneration. The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity has been awarded the 2020 Book Award from the National Communication Association's (USA) Environmental Communication Division. Adam Bobeck is a PhD candidate in Cultural Anthropology at the University of Leipzig. His PhD is entitled “Object-Oriented Azadari: Shi'i Muslim Rituals and Ontology”. For more about his work, see www.adambobeck.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity (Routledge, 2020) brings the ecological turn to sociocultural understandings of self. Tema Milstein and José Castro-Sotomayor introduce a broad, insightful assembly of original theory and research on planetary positionalities in flux in the Anthropocene – or what in this Handbook cultural ecologist David Abram presciently renames the Humilocene, a new “epoch of humility.” Forty international authors craft a kaleidoscopic lens, focusing on the following key interdisciplinary inquiries: Part I illuminates identity as always ecocultural, expanding dominant understandings of who we are and how our ways of identifying engender earthly outcomes. Part II examines ways ecocultural identities are fostered and how difference and spaces of interaction can be sources of environmental conviviality. Part III illustrates consequential ways the media sphere informs, challenges, and amplifies particular ecocultural identities. Part IV delves into the constitutive power of ecocultural identities and illuminates ways ecological forces shape the political sphere. Part V demonstrates multiple and unspooling ways in which ecocultural identities can evolve and transform to recall ways forward to reciprocal surviving and thriving. The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity provides an essential resource for scholars, teachers, students, protectors, and practitioners interested in ecological and sociocultural regeneration. The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity has been awarded the 2020 Book Award from the National Communication Association's (USA) Environmental Communication Division. Adam Bobeck is a PhD candidate in Cultural Anthropology at the University of Leipzig. His PhD is entitled “Object-Oriented Azadari: Shi'i Muslim Rituals and Ontology”. For more about his work, see www.adambobeck.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/critical-theory

The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity (Routledge, 2020) brings the ecological turn to sociocultural understandings of self. Tema Milstein and José Castro-Sotomayor introduce a broad, insightful assembly of original theory and research on planetary positionalities in flux in the Anthropocene – or what in this Handbook cultural ecologist David Abram presciently renames the Humilocene, a new “epoch of humility.” Forty international authors craft a kaleidoscopic lens, focusing on the following key interdisciplinary inquiries: Part I illuminates identity as always ecocultural, expanding dominant understandings of who we are and how our ways of identifying engender earthly outcomes. Part II examines ways ecocultural identities are fostered and how difference and spaces of interaction can be sources of environmental conviviality. Part III illustrates consequential ways the media sphere informs, challenges, and amplifies particular ecocultural identities. Part IV delves into the constitutive power of ecocultural identities and illuminates ways ecological forces shape the political sphere. Part V demonstrates multiple and unspooling ways in which ecocultural identities can evolve and transform to recall ways forward to reciprocal surviving and thriving. The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity provides an essential resource for scholars, teachers, students, protectors, and practitioners interested in ecological and sociocultural regeneration. The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity has been awarded the 2020 Book Award from the National Communication Association's (USA) Environmental Communication Division. Adam Bobeck is a PhD candidate in Cultural Anthropology at the University of Leipzig. His PhD is entitled “Object-Oriented Azadari: Shi'i Muslim Rituals and Ontology”. For more about his work, see www.adambobeck.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/environmental-studies

The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity (Routledge, 2020) brings the ecological turn to sociocultural understandings of self. Tema Milstein and José Castro-Sotomayor introduce a broad, insightful assembly of original theory and research on planetary positionalities in flux in the Anthropocene – or what in this Handbook cultural ecologist David Abram presciently renames the Humilocene, a new “epoch of humility.” Forty international authors craft a kaleidoscopic lens, focusing on the following key interdisciplinary inquiries: Part I illuminates identity as always ecocultural, expanding dominant understandings of who we are and how our ways of identifying engender earthly outcomes. Part II examines ways ecocultural identities are fostered and how difference and spaces of interaction can be sources of environmental conviviality. Part III illustrates consequential ways the media sphere informs, challenges, and amplifies particular ecocultural identities. Part IV delves into the constitutive power of ecocultural identities and illuminates ways ecological forces shape the political sphere. Part V demonstrates multiple and unspooling ways in which ecocultural identities can evolve and transform to recall ways forward to reciprocal surviving and thriving. The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity provides an essential resource for scholars, teachers, students, protectors, and practitioners interested in ecological and sociocultural regeneration. The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity has been awarded the 2020 Book Award from the National Communication Association's (USA) Environmental Communication Division. Adam Bobeck is a PhD candidate in Cultural Anthropology at the University of Leipzig. His PhD is entitled “Object-Oriented Azadari: Shi'i Muslim Rituals and Ontology”. For more about his work, see www.adambobeck.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/anthropology

The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity (Routledge, 2020) brings the ecological turn to sociocultural understandings of self. Tema Milstein and José Castro-Sotomayor introduce a broad, insightful assembly of original theory and research on planetary positionalities in flux in the Anthropocene – or what in this Handbook cultural ecologist David Abram presciently renames the Humilocene, a new “epoch of humility.” Forty international authors craft a kaleidoscopic lens, focusing on the following key interdisciplinary inquiries: Part I illuminates identity as always ecocultural, expanding dominant understandings of who we are and how our ways of identifying engender earthly outcomes. Part II examines ways ecocultural identities are fostered and how difference and spaces of interaction can be sources of environmental conviviality. Part III illustrates consequential ways the media sphere informs, challenges, and amplifies particular ecocultural identities. Part IV delves into the constitutive power of ecocultural identities and illuminates ways ecological forces shape the political sphere. Part V demonstrates multiple and unspooling ways in which ecocultural identities can evolve and transform to recall ways forward to reciprocal surviving and thriving. The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity provides an essential resource for scholars, teachers, students, protectors, and practitioners interested in ecological and sociocultural regeneration. The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity has been awarded the 2020 Book Award from the National Communication Association's (USA) Environmental Communication Division. Adam Bobeck is a PhD candidate in Cultural Anthropology at the University of Leipzig. His PhD is entitled “Object-Oriented Azadari: Shi'i Muslim Rituals and Ontology”. For more about his work, see www.adambobeck.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/sociology

The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity (Routledge, 2020) brings the ecological turn to sociocultural understandings of self. Tema Milstein and José Castro-Sotomayor introduce a broad, insightful assembly of original theory and research on planetary positionalities in flux in the Anthropocene – or what in this Handbook cultural ecologist David Abram presciently renames the Humilocene, a new “epoch of humility.” Forty international authors craft a kaleidoscopic lens, focusing on the following key interdisciplinary inquiries: Part I illuminates identity as always ecocultural, expanding dominant understandings of who we are and how our ways of identifying engender earthly outcomes. Part II examines ways ecocultural identities are fostered and how difference and spaces of interaction can be sources of environmental conviviality. Part III illustrates consequential ways the media sphere informs, challenges, and amplifies particular ecocultural identities. Part IV delves into the constitutive power of ecocultural identities and illuminates ways ecological forces shape the political sphere. Part V demonstrates multiple and unspooling ways in which ecocultural identities can evolve and transform to recall ways forward to reciprocal surviving and thriving. The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity provides an essential resource for scholars, teachers, students, protectors, and practitioners interested in ecological and sociocultural regeneration. The Routledge Handbook of Ecocultural Identity has been awarded the 2020 Book Award from the National Communication Association's (USA) Environmental Communication Division. Adam Bobeck is a PhD candidate in Cultural Anthropology at the University of Leipzig. His PhD is entitled “Object-Oriented Azadari: Shi'i Muslim Rituals and Ontology”. For more about his work, see www.adambobeck.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/geography

Today's show is a real treat! It's a rich conversation about being grounded and using divination as a tool. We discuss those things and much more with our exciting guest. Join us! Téo Montoya is a human design analyst, metamodern myth mender, and indigenous futurist living in Santa Fe, New Mexico. He is also an enrolled member of the Lipan Apache Band of Texas. His work focuses on synthesizing cosmological and spiritual systems, myths, archetypes, and modalities to find ways of supporting an emerging world in crisis through human development, ecological literacy, and reciprocity with our more-than-human kin. In today's conversation, Téo explains myth mending and the concept of meta-modernism, along with indigenous futurism, how he defines it, and why it's important in this day and age. His work is important because it is on the leading edge of where we go from this current time of ecological and social crisis.    Show Highlights: A brief overview of how Téo's spiritual path unfolded, thanks in part to his unusual mentor of ten years How understanding human design brought an understanding of the different ways of being human and conscious Why Téo's work and focus falls between the esoteric and the practical spaces Why the current “meaning crisis” is contributing to a psychological health crisis Why we need myths and systems that help us understand who we are and where we fit into the complexity of our world How we move through developmental stages of an intersubjective understanding of reality The difference in modernism, postmodernism, and meta-modernism The work of myth mending in helping people rebuild their meaning-making muscles The basics of human design, which is a synthesis of multiple modalities that helps people bring their fullness into the world A look at Téo's chart and what it shows for him The interesting space of being “in-between” spirituality and practicality How Téo explains indigenous futurism as a narrative blueprint for the future How we can remain hopeful and aware of the infinite possibilities for the future, even in the midst of the terrible things around us How the incarnation cross in human design is our energetic purpose in the world Hear Téo's answers to rapid-fire questions about helpful advice, grounding habits, favorite hot beverage, last meal on earth, morning routine, favorite books, and what's bringing him joy right now.   Resources:   Connect with Téo: https://archaicremnant.com/ ( Website) orhttps://www.instagram.com/arch.remnant/?hl=en ( Instagram)   Books mentioned: https://amzn.to/3RIMAay (The Spell of the Sensuous) by David Abram https://amzn.to/3AZnJcY (Dune )by Frank Herbert Walking the Clouds by Grace L. Dillon https://www.amazon.com/Building-Cathedral-Answering-Metamodern-Spirituality/dp/B0915PKWBY/ (Building the Cathedral) by Sadie Alwyn Moon  Connect with me: Are you an online business owner? Join my free Facebook group:https://streaklinks.com/BFaTM91w8CwJaq0TKg5JvfKU/https://m.facebook.com/groups/weaveyourbusinessbliss/ ( Weave Your Business Bliss). Learn more and book a call forhttps://streaklinks.com/BFaTM9529pznqZZhTwLnssU1/https://www.weaveyourbliss.com/work-with-me ( Vedic Business Coaching.) Limited spots are still available!https://streaklinks.com/BFaTM91FRcDAcJaAKwwTtPRH/https://weaveyourbliss.as.me/discoverycall ( Book a call.) Join my intimate high-touch container Your Magnetic Blueprint in September! https://streaklinks.com/BFaTM91FRcDAcJaAKwwTtPRH/https://weaveyourbliss.as.me/discoverycall (Book a call.) $200 off and a 6-part payment plan this month only.

Breathe in, breathe out. In this speech David Abram talks about what usually stays unnoticed - the omnipresent invisible mass of air we are immersed in. He talks about the air as an organ of the Earth, its sacredness; about climate as the commonwealth of breath as well as about the affinity between air and awareness. Is consciousness really the special possession of our species, or is it rather a property of the breathing biosphere in which we all participate?David Abram is a cultural ecologist and philosopher, founder and creative director of the Alliance for Wild Ethics. He is best known for his work bridging the philosophical tradition of phenomenology with environmental and ecological issues. David is the author of Becoming Animal: An Earthly Cosmology, and The Spell of the Sensuous: Perception and Language in a More-than-human World. His essays on the cultural causes and consequences of ecological disarray have appeared in a number of publications and anthologies. Abram coined the phrase “the more-than-human world” as a way of referring to earthly nature, a term that has become a key phrase within the lingua franca of the broad ecological movement.Follow us on  Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.___Nádech, výdech. V tomto díle hovoří David Abram o tom, co běžně zůstává nepovšimnuto - o všudypřítomné neviditelné mase vzduchu, ve které jsme ponořeni. Abram mluví o vzduchu jako o orgánu Země, o jeho posvátnosti; o klimatu jako společném bohatství dechu (commonwealth of breath), o spřízněnosti dechu a vědomí. Skutečně vědomí náleží výlučně našemu druhu? Nebo spíš patří dýchající biosféře, na níž jsme všichni účastni?David Abram je kulturní ekolog a filozof, zakladatel a kreativní ředitel Aliance pro etiku divočiny. Je známý především díky své práci propojující filozofickou tradici fenomenologie s environmentálními a ekologickými tématy. Je autorem knih Becoming Animal: An Earthly Cosmology a The Spell of the Sensuous: Perception and Language in a More-than-human World. Jeho eseje o kulturních příčinách a důsledcích ekologického chaosu vyšly v řadě publikací a antologií. Je autorem slovního spojení „více než lidský svět“, kterým označuje pozemskou přírodu a který se stal klíčovým výrazem jazyka environmentalistů*ek po celém světě.Sledujte nás na sociálních sítích Facebook, Instagram a Twitter.

In this episode, astrologer and avant-garde thinker Anya Kaats and I... share Anya's journey from her Jewish upbringing to her gender and sexuality studies, marriage, divorce, food blogging, chronic illness, agnosticism, and astrology talk about the comfort of ritual and connection to something higher, the nature of belief, and the comfort found in belief discuss the rise of spiritual influencers, spiritual bypassing of trauma, influencers promising life-changing psychic readings and secret "codes, and Instagram shamans circa 2017 discuss the nuances of responsible spirituality and how fragile spiritual spaces and practices can be without radical responsibility share some of Anya's experiences in spiritual spaces with questionable boundaries and ethics talk about some general red flags to watch out for so listeners can better discern and find a spirituality that honors reconnection to Self, Others, and the Planet discuss the ancestral connection to the natural world in pre-historic, hunter-gatherer spirituality vs. capitalism and scientism share various opinions on abundance as a potential for hoarding wealth and resources Anya's website #110: Responsibly Navigating Metaphysical & Extrasensory Realms Using the Akashic Records with Jenny Kellogg Anya's podcasts: A Millennial's Guide to Saving the World and Whore Rapport Anya's Substack Power in the Helping Professions by Adoph Guggenbuhl-Craig Inner Gold: Understanding Psychological Projection by Robert A. Johnson Spell of the Sensuous: Perception & Language in a More-Than-Human World by David Abram

We approach the Middle Pillar on the Tree of Life as a possible guide to the dilemma of having a human identity, exploring: the contrast between identity and being; the advantages and drawbacks of emphasising one of these above the other; a parallel between the Pillar of Severity and identity, and the Pillar of Mercy and being; how these distinctions transcend politics; neurodiversity as a new and possibly radical category of human difference; neurodiversity as a possible recognition that the human being is not synonymous with the human mind; lack of mental imagery as a marker of neurodiversity; mental imagery in magick; Lionel Snell on seeing fairies; how the imagination does not depend upon mental imagery, because the imagination is universal; some ancient myths and other accounts of human nature; the changeability of human nature; David Abram on the separation of the human from nature; putting the blame on language and Plato; the primacy of forgetting in human nature; forgetting and remembering in Plato; remembering as resurrection; parallels between identity and remembering, being and forgetting, and the dilemmas of both; the Middle Pillar as an alternative to these; Kether as that which is beyond the human mind; Israel Regardie on the resolution of psychological conflict as a preliminary practice to magick; acceptance as the solution to conflict; Tiphereth as the model of acceptance and balance; the Middle Pillar as a combination of remembering and forgetting; Yesod as the unconscious and the storehouse of memory and images; the abyss and the enigma of Da'ath; the nature of Da'ath and a personal experience of it; Da'ath and the Holy Guardian Angel as useful fictions; the arrival at a useful fiction as a preliminary to the experience of Kether; the Middle Pillar as a pulsation of different kinds of remembering and forgetting. Support the podcast and access additional content at: https://patreon.com/oeith. Buy me a coffee at https://ko-fi.com/oeith or https://www.buymeacoffee.com/dbarfordG. Or you could send me a lovely book from https://www.amazon.co.uk/hz/wishlist/ls/1IQ3BVWY3L5L5?ref_=wl_share. David Abram (1996). The Spell of the Sensuous: Perception and Language in a More-than-human World. New York: Pantheon. Anonymous (2002). Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism. New York: Tarcher. Ramsey Dukes (2011). How to See Fairies: Discover Your Psychic Powers in Six Weeks. London: Aeon. Israel Regardie (1945). The Middle Pillar. Chicago: Aries.

Rupert and David Abram probe the meaning and manifestation of magic. Recorded at Hollyhock on Cortes Island, Canada, on August 6, 2015.David Abram, PhD, is a cultural ecologist, founder of The Alliance for Wild Ethics and award winning author of Becoming Animal: An Earthly Cosmology, and The Spell of the Sensuous: Perception and Language in a More-than-Human World. An accomplished storyteller and sleight-of-hand magician David has lived and traded magic with indigenous sorcerers in Indonesia, Nepal, and the Americas. 

In those moments when, in the midst of the brokenness of the world, any of us find ourselves able to kindle our resolute love or contagious joy, we're being of much needed service - both to ourselves and to those around us. And we don't always know that we're doing that. So what would it be to begin to notice this most human of capacities in ourselves, and share it with others - as a complement to all the other strong feelings and orientations that sweep through us when we are also in contact with the fragility of things? This week's Turning Towards Life is a conversation about celebrating our capacity to be generous, courageous gifts to one another, this week seeded from a source from the wonderful work of David Abram. It's hosted as always by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace. This is Turning Towards Life, a weekly live 30 minute conversation hosted by Thirdspace in which Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn dive deep into big questions of human living. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google and Spotify. You can find out more about our Professional Coaching Course, which we talk a little about in this episode, on the Thirdspace website here. Here's our source for this week: Holding Together There are so many unsung heroines and heroes at this broken moment in our collective story, so many courageous persons who, unbeknownst to themselves, are holding together the world by their resolute love or contagious joy. Although I do not know your names, I can feel you out there. David Abram Photo by Kristopher Roller on Unsplash

¿Qué es esto de devenir animal? ¿Los seres humanos somos animales o no? Bueno, sí somos pero tendemos a pensarnos como máquinas. Entonces, ¿qué hacemos? Devenimos animales. Y eso ¿cómo se hace? En este episodio sobre el libro de David Abram, te cuento todo. : : Para tirar del hilo: Devenir animal de David Abram ¿Qué dirían los animales si les hiciéramos las preguntas correctas? de Vinciane Despret Hacia mundos más animales de Laura Fernández Taller de filosofía de Pablo Farneda

Have you ever tasted music or experienced numbers as having genders? If so, you might be a synesthete! Synesthesia refers to subjective experiences in which a stimulus associated with one sensory modality (e.g., vision) is experienced as having properties associated with an entirely different modality (e.g. sound, texture, or smell). This “mixing” of the senses raises fascinating questions about human experience and the life of the mind. In episode 33, Ellie and David discuss the science and philosophy of synesthesia while poking fun at people who brag about being synesthetes at parties. Are synesthetes born or made? What forms of synesthesia exist? And how might one go about cultivating synesthetic perception?Works DiscussedDonielle Johnson, Carrie Allison, and Simon Baron-Cohen, “The Prevalence of Synesthesia: The Consistency Revolution”Simon Baron-Cohen,  “Is There a Normal Phase of Synaesthesia in Development?”David Abram, The Spell of the SensuousKenneth Peacock, “Instruments to Perform Color-Music: Two Centuries of Technological Experimentation” Anina Rich, interview in "Synesthesia" episode of All in the Mind podcastJamie Ward and Peter Meijer. “Visual Experiences in the Blind Induced by an Auditory Sensory Substitution Device”Jerry Fodor, The Modularity of MindAdam Wager, “The Extra Qualia Problem: Synaesthesia and Representationism”John Locke, An Essay Concerning Human UnderstandingWebsite | overthinkpodcast.comInstagram & Twitter | @overthink_podEmail |  Dearoverthink@gmail.comYouTube | Overthink podcast

Jenny Odell is a multi-disciplinary artist and writer. Her book How To Do Nothing: Resisting the Attention Economy, was just released in paperback. Jenny and I speak about what "doing nothing" actually means and how we can work to resist capitalist value structures that demand we consume and produce in order to stay relevant and valuable in society. We also discuss how to carve out authentic and enjoyable ways to be creative without falling victim to the culture of productivity, and share our thoughts on social media & tips for navigating the realm of self-promotion in a way that honors our humanness and doesn't force us to become "a brand". Find Jenny at at jennyodell.com and on Twitter. Jenny's book recommendations: The Spell of the Sensuous by David Abram and Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer Songs featured: "I Can't Sleep" by Oliver Tank, "Shorty Don't Wait" by A Great Big World, "Chill or Be Chilled" by The Polish Ambassador feat. Nitty Scott and and off the cuff guitar lick by my dear Patron Axel, recorded in his new home. Interested in participating in the Lunar Circle? Visit anyakaats.com/lunarcircle for more information and to enroll.  How to support the show: Rate, review and subscribe to the podcast on iTunes! Support my work on Patreon and get access to perks like an exclusive Discord Server, a book club just for patrons, shirts + stickers, playlists, and curated workshops led by myself, fellow Patrons and former guests of the podcast. Visit my website - AnyaKaats.com & Find me on Instagram Get full access to A Millennial's Guide to Saving the World at anyakaats.substack.com/subscribe

Mackensey is a trauma-informed tantra & intimacy coach, an ACS certified sexologist and an embodiment portrait photographer who offers energy and somatic healing to those looking to cultivate a deeper sense of intimacy, sexual and emotional intelligence, connection and pleasure. Our conversation explores the nature of sexual embodiment and feminine power, the intersection of sexuality with religion/spirituality and "fawning" as a trauma response. We also discuss the Lilith myth, psychological projection and what it means to be "a teacher".  Find out more about Mackensey at lilithandlavender.com and on Instagram at @lilithandlavender.  Mackensey's Book Recommendations: Becoming Animal by David Abram and Belonging by Toka-Pa Turner Songs featured: "Changes" by Langhorne Slim/The Law and "Bitch" by Meredith Brooks How to support the show: Rate, review and subscribe to the podcast on iTunes! Support my work on Patreon and get access to perks like an exclusive WhatsApp group chat just for patrons! Visit my website - AnyaKaats.com & Find me on Instagram Get full access to A Millennial's Guide to Saving the World at anyakaats.substack.com/subscribe