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For all those who missed out on London, see you in Miami next week!Notion, the knowledge work decacorn, has been building AI tooling since before ChatGPT, with many hits from Q&A in 2023 and unified AI in 2024 and Meeting Notes in 2025. At the end of their last Make user conference, Ryan Nystrom teased Notion 3.0's Custom Agents - and they are finally embracing the Agent Lab playbook!Sarah Sachs and Simon Last of Notion join us for a deep dive into how Notion built Custom Agents, why it took years and multiple rebuilds to get right, and what it means to turn a productivity tool into an agent-native system of record for enterprise work.We go inside the product, engineering, evals, pricing, and org design decisions behind one of the most ambitious AI product efforts in software today — from early failed tool-calling experiments in 2022 to agent harnesses, progressive tool disclosure, meeting notes as data capture, and the long-term vision for software factories and agentic work.We discuss:* Sarah and Simon's path to launching Notion Custom Agents, and why the feature was rebuilt four or five times before it was ready for production* Why early agent attempts failed: no tool-calling standard, short context windows, unreliable models, and too much complexity exposed to the model* The “Agent Lab” thesis: not just wrapping a model, but understanding how people collaborate and building the right product system around frontier capabilities* How Notion thinks about roadmap timing: not swimming upstream against model limitations, but also building early enough that the product is ready when the models are* Why coding agents feel like the kernel of AGI, and how Notion is thinking about “software factories” made up of agents that spec, code, test, debug, review, and maintain codebases together* How Sarah runs AI engineering at Notion (“notes from Token Town”): objective-setting over idea ownership, low-ego teams comfortable deleting their own work, and a culture designed to swarm around fast-changing opportunities* The “Simon Vortex,” company hackathons, and why security gets pulled in early rather than late* How Notion organizes AI: core AI capabilities and infrastructure, product packaging teams, and a broader company mandate that every product surface must increasingly work for both humans and agents* Why prototypes have become much easier to build internally, and how “demos over memos” changes product development inside a tool the whole company already uses every day* Notion's eval philosophy: regression tests, launch-quality evals, and “frontier/headroom” evals that intentionally only pass ~30% of the time so the company can see where model capabilities are going* What a “Model Behavior Engineer” is, and why Notion treats eval writing, failure analysis, and model understanding as a distinct function rather than just software engineering* The changing role of software engineers in the age of coding agents, and why the new job looks less like typing code and more like supervising a rigorous outer system of agents, PRs, and verification loops* How the “software factory” should work: specs, self-verification, bug flows, subagents, and minimizing human intervention while preserving the invariants that matter* A live walkthrough of a Notion Custom Agent handling coworking space tenant applications by triaging email, enriching applicants with web search, and writing structured data into a Notion database* How agents compose inside Notion: shared databases as primitives, agents invoking other agents, “manager agents” supervising dozens of specialized agents, and memory implemented simply as pages and databases* Notion's take on MCP vs CLI: why Simon is bullish on CLI's self-debugging nature, where MCP still makes sense, and how Sarah thinks about capability, determinism, permissioning, and pricing alignment* The evolution of Notion's internal agent harness: from early JavaScript coding agents, to custom XML, to Markdown and SQL-like abstractions, to tool definitions, progressive disclosure, and a much shorter system prompt* Why Notion cares about teaching “the top of the class,” building for sophisticated operators rather than abstracting away too much capability for everyone* How agent setup works today: agents that can configure themselves, inspect their own failures, and edit their own instructions — with guardrails around permissions* How Notion prices Custom Agents: credits as an abstraction over tokens, model type, serving tier, web search, and future sandbox costs; why usage-based pricing was necessary; and how “auto” tries to match the right model to the right task* Why Notion is not eager to train a foundation model, where they do fine-tune and optimize today, and why retrieval/ranking is one of the most important investment areas as more searches come from agents rather than humans* Why Meeting Notes became one of Notion's strongest growth loops: not just as transcription, but as high-signal data capture that powers search, custom agents, follow-up workflows, and the broader system of record for company collaboration* Why Notion is more interested in being the place where collaboration data lives than in building hardware themselves — and how wearables or other capture devices may eventually feed into that systemSarah SachsLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahmsachsX: https://x.com/sarahmsachsSimon LastLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simon-last-41404140X: https://x.com/simonlastFull Video EpisodeTimestamps* 00:00:00 Introduction and launching Notion Custom Agents* 00:01:17 Why Notion rebuilt agents four or five times* 00:03:35 Building for where models are going, not just where they are* 00:05:32 The Agent Lab thesis, wrappers, and product intuition* 00:08:07 User journeys, leadership, and low-ego AI teams* 00:13:16 The Simon Vortex, hackathons, and bringing security in early* 00:16:39 Team structure, demos over memos, and building for agents* 00:20:25 Evals, Notion's Last Exam, and the Model Behavior Engineer role* 00:27:37 Evals as an agent harness and the changing role of software engineers* 00:30:42 The software factory: specs, verification, and agent workflows* 00:32:18 Live demo: a custom agent for coworking space applications* 00:35:08 Composing agents, manager agents, and memory as pages* 00:38:15 Notion Mail, Gmail, native integrations, and tools* 00:39:43 MCP vs CLI and the cost of capability* 00:44:13 When Notion uses MCP vs building its own integrations* 00:47:43 The history of Notion's agent harness rebuilds* 00:55:35 Power users, public tools, and the setup agent* 00:58:01 Self-fixing agents, permissions, and “flippy”* 01:01:13 Pricing, credits, and choosing the right model automatically* 01:09:01 Why Notion isn't training its own frontier model* 01:14:07 Retrieval, ranking, and search built for agents* 01:17:27 Meeting Notes as data capture and workflow automation* 01:21:18 Wearables, hardware, and Notion as the system of record* 01:23:45 OutroTranscript[00:00:00] Alessio: Hey everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio founder of Kernel Labs and I'm joined by swyx, editor of the Latent Space.[00:00:11] swyx: Hello. Hello. We're back in the beautiful studio that, uh, Alessio has set up for us with Simon and Sarah from Notion. Welcome.[00:00:18] Sarah Sachs: Thanks for having us.[00:00:19] Alessio: Thanks for having us. Yeah.[00:00:20] swyx: Congrats on the launch recently the custom agents, finally it's here. How's it feel?[00:00:26] Sarah Sachs: We ship things slowly. So it had been in Alpha for a little bit and at the point at which is it's an alpha, um, there's a group of people that are making sure it's ready for prod, and then there's a group of people working on the next thing.So sometimes some of these launches are a bit delayed satisfaction, so it's quite nice to remind yourself all the work you did because we do have a habit of like. Being two or three milestones ahead. Uh, just ‘cause you have to be, you know, you can't get complacent. Um, but it's been great that people understood how this is helpful.And I think that's just easier in general building AI tools today than it was two, three years ago. People kind of get it and so that user education, um, there's just, it was our most successful launch in terms of free trials and converting people and things like that. It was really successful, so yeah.But there's a lot to build.[00:01:12] swyx: Making it free for three months helps.[00:01:16] Sarah Sachs: Yep.[00:01:17] Simon Last: It was definitely super exciting for me because it's probably the fourth or fifth time that we rebuilt that.[00:01:22] swyx: Yes.[00:01:23] Simon Last: And I mean,[00:01:24] swyx: you've been building this since like 20, 22.[00:01:26] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, like, it was even right when we got access to like GPT four in late 20 22, 1 of the first ideas we had is like, oh, okay, let's make an agent that I, we used the word assistant at the time, there wasn't really the word, the word agent yet, but, oh, we'll give an access to all the tools the notion can do, and then it, we run in the background like, like do work for us.And then we just tried that many times and it just. Was too early. Um,[00:01:48] swyx: I need to force you to like double click on that. What is too early? What didn't work?[00:01:52] Sarah Sachs: We were fine to, like, before function calling came out. We were trying to fine tune with the Frontier Labs and with fireworks, like a function calling model on notion functions.This is right when I joined. I joined because, um, we needed a manager as Simon was needed to be able to go on vacation. So, uh, that's, that's around when I joined, so you can speak much more to it.[00:02:11] Simon Last: Yeah, we did partnerships with both philanthropic and open AI at different times, uh, to try to, at the time the, I mean, when we first tried, there wasn't even a constant of like tools yet.We, we sort of designed our own like, like tool calling framework and then we tried to fine tune the models to, uh, to use it over multiple turns. Um, and because it, it didn't work well out the box, I think. Yeah. The models are just too dumb and the context thing was also way too short.[00:02:37] Alsesio: Yeah.[00:02:37] Simon Last: Um, and yeah, we just kind of banged our head against it for a long time.Uh, unfortunately it was always like, there was always like sort of. Glimmers that it was working, but um, it never felt quite robust enough to be like a useful, delightful thing. Um, until I would say, uh, the big unlock was probably like Sonic 3.6 or seven, uh, early last year. And that's when we started working on our agent, which we shipped last year.Um, and then, and then uh, uh, custom agents, kinda a similar capability and that, that one just took longer because we, we just wanted to get the reliability up a lot higher. ‘cause it's actually running in the background.[00:03:14] Sarah Sachs: And the product interface of like permissions and understanding, you know, this custom agent is shared in a Slack channel with X group of people and has access to documents that are surfaced to Y group of people.And the intersect experts, Y might not be whole. And so how do you build the product around making sure administrators understand that permissioning took multiple swings.[00:03:35] Alsesio: Everything is hard back at the end of the day. Yeah. I'm curious, like when the models are not working, how do you inform the product roadmap of like, okay, we should probably build, expecting the models to be better at some reasonable pace, but at the same time we need to, you know, you had a lot of customers in 2022.It's not like you were a new company or like no user base.[00:03:54] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean I think there's always the balance of, you know, like you want to be a GI pilled and thinking ahead and building for where things are going. Uh, but also you wanna be like shipping useful things. And so we always try to like, like keep a balance there.You know, we. We try to take clear, like a portfolio approach. You know, we're always working on multiple projects and, and we're always trying to work on, you know, maintaining things where that have already shipped, like, like shipping new things that are like eminently working well and make them really good.And, and then we wanna always have a few projects that are a little bit crazy. Um,[00:04:23] Alsesio: and what are the a GI peel projects that you have today? I'm curious about, uh, you don't have to share exactly what you're working on, but I'm curious what are things today that maybe in 18 months people will be like, oh, obviously this was gonna work[00:04:35] Sarah Sachs: 18 months.[00:04:37] Alsesio: Yeah, 18 months is, you know,[00:04:37] Sarah Sachs: it's a long time and Yeah. Yeah.[00:04:39] Simon Last: I mean, there's a number of things happening. I think one thing that's becoming more clear is I think like, like, uh, coding agents are the kernel of EGI, sort of, everything is a coding agent. Mm-hmm. I think that's, that's sort of one, one direction.Um, and then, yeah, the exciting thing about that is sort of your agent can sort of bootstrap its own software and capabilities and actually debug and maintain them. And so yeah, we're, we're, we're thinking a lot about that. And then, yeah, like, like another category of things that I'm, I'm really excited about is like, uh, we call the software factory also.People are using this, uh, this, this sort of word. Um, basically it just means can you create sort of like a, as automated as possible, a workflow for developing debugging. Mm-hmm. Merging, reviewing, and maintaining a code base and a service where there's a bunch of agents working together inside, and like, like how does that work?[00:05:28] Sarah Sachs: If you think back to your initial question, like, why did this take so long? I think something,[00:05:32] swyx: I didn't say that, but Yes. Okay. Go ahead.[00:05:34] Sarah Sachs: Why, what, what changed over the three and half years of trying[00:05:37] swyx: it? Exactly. Right. Because most people always say like, it didn't work yet. Then reasoning models came, then it worked.I was like, okay, let's go a little[00:05:43] Sarah Sachs: bit. That's, I mean, that's part of it, but I think the other part of it that I actually think is really what will set notion apart for every new capability is we have like. Two skills that are crucial when it comes to frontier capabilities. One is not letting yourself swim upstream.So like quickly realizing if you're just pressing against model capabilities versus not exposing the model to the right information, not having the right infrastructure set up. That and of itself is the skill of intuition. And the second is to see, okay, you're not swimming upstream. Which direction is the river flowing and what is like, how do we think ahead about the product and start building it even if it's not great yet, so that when it is there, we're ready for it.Right? And like those can sometimes feel like counterintuitive things. Like we can be trying to fine tune a tool calling model when they don't exist yet. And that the trick is to not do that for too long, but realize that there was something there. And we've had a lot of things which like, um, we're just like not swimming in the right direction with the streams.I think we had multiple versions of transcription before we got meeting notes, right? Oh, I gotta talk[00:06:39] swyx: about that. Yeah.[00:06:40] Sarah Sachs: Yeah. Um, and so. I, I, I think that like we, we really closely partner with the Frontier Labs on capabilities and we also have to have strong conviction on, as those capabilities move.Notion is about being the best place for you to collaborate and do your work. And how does that narrative change if the way that we work changes?Yeah.[00:06:58] swyx: Yeah. You told me you were a fan of the Agent Lab thesis, and this is, this is kind of it, right?[00:07:02] Sarah Sachs: Right. I show that thesis to so many candidates. Like I have it as like micro chrome autofill.Um, at this point, like it's one of my most visitations[00:07:10] swyx: because like, is this the, here's why you should work in notion and not open, open eye. I, it's like,[00:07:14] Sarah Sachs: here's, here's what's different about it.[00:07:16] swyx: Yeah.[00:07:16] Sarah Sachs: And here's why. It's not just a rapper. I actually think more and more people understand it's not just a wrapper.[00:07:21] swyx: Yeah.[00:07:22] Sarah Sachs: Um, and by the way, like in the beginning, parts of what we build are wrappers on functionality. That works well, of course, but that's not really the most, um. I would say that's not the product that, that drives revenue. And that's not necessarily always what users need.[00:07:35] swyx: I mean, you know, notion is the AWS wrapper, but like the, the wrapper is very beautiful and like very, very well polished.So[00:07:40] Sarah Sachs: like the analogy,[00:07:41] swyx: like[00:07:42] Sarah Sachs: the analogy that I've been coming back to his Datadog in AWS[00:07:45] swyx: Yeah.[00:07:46] Sarah Sachs: So, uh, Datadog could not exist with, without cloud storage. Right. That it's kind of fundamental that that works. Um, and AWS has like a CloudWatch product, but Datadog is an expert on understanding how people want observability on the products they launch.And we're experts in understanding how people wanna collaborate, and that's really where our expertise lies.[00:08:04] swyx: Totally.[00:08:04] Sarah Sachs: Um, regardless of the tools that we use,[00:08:07] Alsesio: I'm kind of curious how you think about implicit versus explicit expertise. I feel like Datadog is half and half implicit and explicit. It's like they understand across markets and industries what engineering teams usually look for.With notion, it's almost like more of the expertise is at the edge because you as a platform, you're like so horizontal that the end user is not really the same. Mm-hmm. Like with Datadog, the end user is always like, yeah, an engineering lead, a kinda like SRE related person with notion. It can be anything.So I'm curious how you put that expertise into a product versus, you know, obviously it, WS cannot build notion. It's, that doesn't quite work in this case, but[00:08:44] Simon Last: it's, it's a little bit differently shaped. I think, you know, a classic vertical SaaS, like the data is kind of like that. They understand their individual customer very deeply.It's kinda a narrow slice, um, notion has always been super horizontal. And our, our task has always been to sort of balance these two somewhat opposing forces of like, we're listening to our customers and what they want us to build. It's a broad slice. And then also we're thinking about like, okay, how do we decompose what they want into, uh, nice primitives that are, that are really nice to use and we'll, we'll get us like as much bang for the buck as possible.And then, you know. Maintain the whole system, make it all like, like super clean and nice to use.[00:09:22] Sarah Sachs: We still have user journeys. I mean, we still focus on like core. I actually think the failure of our team is when we focus too much on what are cools that are, what are tools that are[00:09:31] Simon Last: mm-hmm.[00:09:31] Sarah Sachs: Cool tools. I actually think that's when we make have the least velocity because you still need some sort of focus on a user journey.So like for instance, we'll all sit down every Friday and look at the P 99 of like the most token exhaustive custom agent transcript and just look at why it didn't do well and cut a bunch of tasks. Like we still focus on like, this has, like this should work. Email triaging should work. Mm-hmm. Right. And similarly, like when we're talking about before building, um, chatting, um, before we started filming about, okay, how can I do PDF export?Well that's functionality that then merits. Maybe we should build a tool that has access to a computer sandbox in a file system and the ability to write code. Right? Right. Um, but it's because we're thinking about the fact that our users to do their, to do their daily work, need to export PDFs, not because we're like, Hmm, I think a computer tool could be cool.Like, let's just see what happens. Mm-hmm. Like we, we have to focus on some user journeys, otherwise we just don't have like, enough strategy to, to prioritize.[00:10:29] swyx: I think there's a lot of like really strong opinions that you've had. Do you have like sort of like a towel of Sarah Sachs? Like, you know, like what, how do you run your team?Like I feel like you just have accumulated all these strong opinions. Obviously part, part of this is your, your token town thing.[00:10:43] Sarah Sachs: I think the TAs working with Service X is, um, you'd have to, it depends who you ask. Um, I think it depends if you're on my team or a partner Right. Or a vendor.[00:10:54] swyx: Yeah. There other people want to run their teams the way that you're Yeah.You're like bringing these things. And then also similarly, uh, Simon, when you did the custom agents demo, you had like, well, we've been using custom agents and here's the super long list of everything that we do. No humans ever read it. Right? That's what you said. I was like,[00:11:07] Sarah Sachs: yeah. So I think for, for me, um, something that I learned very quickly and became very comfortable with was that my job was not to be the ideas per person or the technical expert.My job was to make it so that everybody understood the objective, had a resource to help prioritize what they should work on, and had an avenue to prioritize what they thought was important. And I think that's true with all, all leadership, but I think especially on the AI team. Almost all of our best ideas come from prototypes, from people that have a cool idea because they saw a user problem, and it's a huge disservice if all of those ideas have to pass, like the sniff test of what me and a product partner or Simon and Ivan decided were the direction, right?Because a lot of what we're doing is leaning into capabilities, so. I think that's the first thing is like, I don't really view like the role of engineering leadership as like, uh, hierarchical, nor has it ever been, but especially now, like very willing to change direction based on, um, like proof is in the pudding.Yeah. And like, and I think we have rebuilt our harness three or four times. And when you do that, then the second rule of engineering leadership is like you need to build a team that's comfortable deleting their own code and is very low ego and is driven by what's best for the company. And, um, doesn't write design docs because they think it's their promotion packet.Right. And that's a culture that notion had long before I joined, but like our willingness to just swarm on different problems and um, redo things that we've built before because something has changed. Like, there's a lot of friction that can happen at companies when you do that. And it doesn't happen at Notion.And because it doesn't happen when new people join. Like they don't wanna be the ones that are saying, we shouldn't do this. I wrote that code. So then it's, you know, you, you create a culture that everyone thoughts and that culture comes directly, I think from Simon and Ivan though, um, because they're very open-minded.[00:12:50] swyx: Anything that you,[00:12:50] Simon Last: you'd add? I'm not a manager, like, like, like Sarah is. Um, a lot of my role is really to try to think a little bit ahead, make sure that we're, we're building on the right capabilities and then like the prototyping stuff. And yeah, it's really, really critical to always just be starting again.It's like, okay, this is new thing. What does this mean? What if we just rethought everything or wrote everything? And so I, I'm, I'm basically just doing that in a loop every six months.[00:13:16] swyx: Yeah. Do you believe in internal hackathons for this stuff?[00:13:19] Sarah Sachs: I think there's like two different versions. So one is like, we just have a, a, a solid bench of senior engineers that come and go on what we call the Simon Vortex and Productionizing what we built, right?Because when you're in the Simon Vortex, the velocity is super high. The direction changes daily, and it's meant to be like the equivalent of a SC Works lab. We don't need to do hackathons for that. We need to have senior engineers that we trust to come in and out of those projects. For instance, like management boundaries are really loose.Like you report to him, but you work for her right now. Yeah. That's something that when we hire managers, it's important they don't care about because we tend to form more structures. Yeah. Don't be too[00:13:54] swyx: territorial.[00:13:55] Sarah Sachs: We form more. It's after we ship things, not not before, just historically. Um, the second thing is we do have companywide hackathons.Actually we just had our demos day for the hackathon we had last week this morning. That's more for people that aren't directly working on the project, feeling like they have the time to pause and learn how to make themselves more productive or how they would use notion custom agents to build something.Or part of the hackathon was actually encouraging everyone across the company to build their own agentic tool loop, calling from scratch. Follow like an every blog post on how to do what I think because we want[00:14:26] swyx: just with the compound engineering one. Yeah.[00:14:28] Sarah Sachs: We want everyone to use cloud code in the company or whatever the coding agent they please and understand that fundamental.So we set aside a day and a half. We're all leadership, encourage everyone on their teams across the company to do it. So we have hackathons like that. I would say like kind of facetiously, like everything we build is a little bit like a hackathon until it graduates and puts on big boy pants and as a product ops rollout leader and has a assigned data scientists and stuff like that,[00:14:54] swyx: security review enterprise stuff,[00:14:56] Sarah Sachs: actually security reviews one of the things that we bring in first because it just slows us down way more and, um, causes a lot of tension and they build better product if they're involved early.So, um, that is probably the first person to get involved in something that's the[00:15:09] swyx: right PR approved answer.[00:15:10] Sarah Sachs: No, but it's not just PR approved. It like, um, um, it's[00:15:13] swyx: actually real. It's actually real. It's like, um, I'm just saying scar[00:15:15] Sarah Sachs: tissue.[00:15:15] swyx: Yeah,[00:15:16] Sarah Sachs: because like, you know, my background's also, I worked at Robinhood for a number of years.Yes. So like, uh, compliance and things like that, um, are a little bit more, you learn the hard way when it doesn't come naturally.[00:15:26] Simon Last: Yeah. I think the. The hackathon is really important for uplifting the general population, but like, if that's the only way you can build new things, you're kind of toast. I mean, it, it has to be like the daily processes, like, you know, building these new things.Um, and it has to be about, I think like, I think in the AI era a lot more leverage accumulates to the most curious and excited people. And so it's like we're all about just like activating that energy. You know, like if someone's protesting something on the weekend that they're excited about and it's important, that should be the main thing that we're doing.Yeah. Um, it's not a hackathon that we schedule once a quarter, it's just like, yeah. Daily process. Part of the culture.[00:16:02] Sarah Sachs: I mean, that's how we shift image generation and notion now. It was always this thing that would be kind of nice to have, but it wasn't really clear where that was necessarily aligned in product priorities.It'd be a lot of work. And we had someone on the database collections team, Jimmy, who was like. I really wanna do image generation for cover photos and inside notion. And we're like, if you wanna build it, like it's, do it please. Like we encourage you. We gave ‘em all the resources of working directly with Gemini and being able to like track the token usage and it working through endpoints.We gave them eval, support, everything, and then became a, a full project.[00:16:34] Alsesio: Yeah.[00:16:35] Sarah Sachs: That's why you can't have like ego as a, a leader. Like that's, that's how we work.[00:16:39] Alsesio: What's the size of the team today, both engineering and overall?[00:16:43] Sarah Sachs: I manage, uh, the team. That's what we'll call it. Core AI capabilities and infrastructure.That's about 50 people. But then we have per i partner teams that do packaging. So how it shows up in the corner chat versus custom agents versus meeting notes, that's another 30, 40 people. And, and then every team that has a product service at Notion that a user can interface with owns the tool that the agent interfaces with the editor team.The team that did CRDT for offline mode is the same team that handles how two agents, um, edit competing blocks. Mm-hmm. Right? It's the same problem. The team that built the underlying SQL engine is the same team that owns how the agent asks it to run a SQL query, and it does it performantly. And so from that regard, anyone working on product engineering is tasked with making them work for customers that are humans and agents because over time the majority of our traffic will be coming from agencies using in our interface, not humans.And so. Our objective is to make it so that the whole product org is building for agents.[00:17:40] Alsesio: Yeah. How has it changed internally? The activation bar is kind of lowered a lot. Like anybody can kind of create a prototype very, somewhat easily, especially if you're like an existing code base. Have you raised the bar on like what type of prototype people need to bring forward to gonna be taken?Not like seriously, but like, you know what I[00:17:58] Simon Last: mean? Yeah. I think the bar is lowered in many ways. Be like, one thing our, uh, our team built that is really cool is our, uh, our, our design team made a whole separate GitHub repo, uh, called the, the design Playground. And it's basically just to create a bunch of like, like helper components and you, uh, for, for quickly a throwing together UIs.And it's become like actually quite sophisticated. Like it has like an agent in there and like, uh, that's pretty fun. So like, we pretty much, like, they don't do mocks, they just make like, like full, full prototypes.[00:18:27] swyx: Here it is. It works.[00:18:28] Simon Last: They give you like a u rl. They're like, okay, all right. So we have to make the, like the real production version of that.Um, and then for engineers. A prototype looks like just making it a feature flag that actually works. Like that's sort of the bar.[00:18:39] Sarah Sachs: Something to understand that's really unique about notion. One of the reasons I joined we're super lucky is no one uses Notion in their job as much as people that work at Notion.[00:18:46] Simon Last: Of course.[00:18:47] Sarah Sachs: So I think there's very few companies, maybe if you worked on Chrome I guess, but like everything that we ship, we ship internally first and get a lot of really quick feedback. And also sometimes our dev instance is totally borked and you have to change a bunch of flags to get things done. And that's kind of like, but everyone, so people that do it ticketing, people that do supply chain procurement, recruiting, everyone is using the same instance of notion with like a lot of flags on for these prototypes people build.Um, and so we have this, Brian Levin, one of the designers on our team, I think evangelize this concept of demos over memos.[00:19:18] swyx: Ooh, too[00:19:20] Sarah Sachs: good. Um, which has been, uh, very good for building demos, and I think it's put a big pressure point on us to have really strong product conviction, because if anything can be demoed, you really need a strong filter of making sure that if you know, you're doing X amount of work, you're making the, you're, you're focusing on one tower, you're not just building a really flat hill.Right. That's actually where I think there has to be more conviction from our PMs, um, and our designers and, and well, the company really to have conviction of what journey we're going on.[00:19:52] Simon Last: But overall, I feel like it works pretty well. Like people, almost all the engineers have good enough taste to realize that like, this prototype doesn't actually make sense in the product, or, or it does.So it's not that common that I would see a prototype. It's like, oh, this makes no sense. Mm-hmm. It's like, you know, people are doing reasonable things and, and, and then it's just a matter of. Which things we build first and then often just, just figuring out how to turn it on and off. There's our, in the, in our like experimental chat ui, there's this, there's probably like, like a hundred check boxes in there.[00:20:22] Sarah Sachs: Kills me[00:20:23] Simon Last: the things you could turn on and off.[00:20:25] Sarah Sachs: Uh, but I think that, okay, so that is kind of true, Simon, but like being the person that manages the evals team, like there is a level of intensity that it adds to the platform team. So, you know, if we're gonna do image generation and notion, all of a sudden the way that we do attachments and the way that we, um, our LLM completion like cortex talks and expects tokens back and now it's getting images back.Like there's a lot of platform work that we do need to, like solidify a little bit. So sometimes it'll be in dev for a couple weeks before it makes it to prod just because we still have to like, make it robust, make it HIPAA compliant, ZDR compliant, figure out the right contracting with the vendor, whatever it is.And we need to eval it because we want the team. To still maintain what they build. That's the one thing is like if we have a bunch of prototypes, it can't just be like a small group of people that then maintain whatever end prototypes. So we have invested a lot of people in an eval and model behavior understanding teams that, we call it agent dev velocity.So your dev velocity building agents can be faster if we invest in that platform. And so we have a whole org dedicated to Asian, um, platform velocity so that you can build your own eval and then maintain it once you ship it. So if a new model release comes out and we, every[00:21:38] swyx: team maintains their own eval,[00:21:40] Sarah Sachs: we maintain the eval framework.Every team owns their own evals and a lot of them we've integrated to Optin, to ci, or we run them nightly and we have a team, uh, a custom agent that triggers to a team to look at the major failures. That's really critical because if we have like all these different surfaces now, a lot of it's on the same agent harness, so it's easier to maintain.It's just packaging of different agent harnesses, but new functionality of the agent. Let's say that like we wanna update like. Uh, you know, they deprecated, sonnet, um, four or whatever it is and we need to auto update. Are[00:22:11] swyx: they already? That's so, okay. Yeah. Actually wasn't that long ago.[00:22:14] Alsesio: Theywere[00:22:14] Alsesio: just 3.5.[00:22:15] Sarah Sachs: 3.537. Just got deprecated.[00:22:18] swyx: 3 7, 5 0.2 or, yeah. No,[00:22:20] Sarah Sachs: it's not. 5.2 is five point. Five point no. Yeah, five four is 40% more expensive than five two. So if they deprecated five two, you would hear they can, you would hear from me about that one. Um, but, uh, another conversation to have.[00:22:35] swyx: I have a cheeky evals question for you.Have you noticed any secret degradation from any of the major model providers?[00:22:40] Sarah Sachs: Secret degradation,[00:22:42] swyx: like. During the War Bay, when it's high traffic, it suddenly gets dumber.[00:22:47] Sarah Sachs: Yeah. I mean, not just between the, I mean, we definitely notice flakiness, we've definitely noticed, particularly for some providers, that things are slower during working hours and[00:22:57] swyx: there's a latency argument.Yes. Not a quality argument.[00:22:59] Sarah Sachs: No. I think the quality difference that's interesting is, um, even though companies that say they're selling the same, a, it's really into like quanti quantization, but like companies that say they're selling the same model through different vendors, whether it be through first party or Bedrock, Azure, et cetera.We do see different qualities sometimes, and that's not necessarily what's advertised.[00:23:21] swyx: Yeah. Kidney went to the point of like, if we, they shipped like this, like eval across all the providers and it was like very obvious we were secret equalizing and it was very,[00:23:28] Sarah Sachs: yeah. But[00:23:29] swyx: that's very embarrassing.[00:23:30] Sarah Sachs: You know, um, we hire Subprocess to figure that out for us.So we just wanna understand where it's regressing or where it's optimized. And sometimes we're okay with regressions that optimize latency if they're the appropriate regressions. Our job is to make sure we have the evals to understand the changes that are important to us. And even like when we're partnering with labs on pre-releasees of models, they'll send us multiple snapshots.And this is less about quantization, but more just regressions. Like they have shipped models that were not the snapshots that we wanted, and they have changed the snapshots that they shipped based on the feedback that we give. Because our feedback tends to be more enterprise work focused and not coding agent focused.And definitely those can be bummers, like, you know, uh, we know that this wasn't the version you wanted, but we'll help you make it work. I mean, we always make it work, but that definitely happens.[00:24:16] Alsesio: Yeah. Do you have, um, failing evals that you're just hoping, oh, that will have success eventually when a good model comes out?[00:24:23] Sarah Sachs: Uh, I mean, yeah. So I think. I mean, I could talk about this for 60 minutes, so I will limit myself. I think it's a real issue when people say evals and it's just like, that's quality, that's like unit, I mean, it's like saying testing. It's not just unit tests, right? So. We have the equivalent of unit test.Regression test. Those live in ci, those have to pass a certain percent, you know, within some stochastic error rate. Then we have, as you're building a product, evals of these aren't passing right now, and this is launch quality. So we have a report card and we need to, on these categories, you know, be it 80 or 90% of all of these user journeys to launch, and then what we have what we call frontier or headroom evals, where we actively wanna be at 30% pass rate.And that's actually been a effort that we took in partnership with philanthropic and OpenAI in the past maybe two or three months, because we actually hit a point where our evals were saturated and we weren't able to really give insightful feedback other than it wasn't worse. And not only is that not helpful for our partners, it's not helpful for us to understand where the stream is going.You know, going back to that analogy. And so we spent a lot of time thinking about. What notions last exam looks like, right? Mm-hmm. Not just humanities, last exam. Ooh, notions last exam. Mm-hmm. And, um, there's a lot of, you know, dreams about what that would look like. I know we've talked a lot about benchmarking, um, swix, but, uh, yeah.Notions last exam is a big thing inside the company and we have people, full-time staff to it exclusively. Mm. We have a data scientist, a model behavior engineer, and an full-time, um, evals engineer just dedicated to the evals that we pass 30% of the time.[00:25:56] swyx: What you're hiring for[00:25:57] Sarah Sachs: MBEs? I am hiring[00:25:58] swyx: What is an MBEA[00:25:59] Sarah Sachs: model?Behavior Engineer Model. Behavior engineers started with a title data specialist before I joined when they were working with Simon on like, uh, Google Sheets and like Simon just needed someone to look through Google Sheets and say, yes, no, this looks bad. This looks good. Right? And so we hired people with kind of diverse linguistics background.We had like a linguistics PhD dropout. Mm-hmm. And a Stanford ate new grad. And they're amazing. And they formed a new function basically. And over time we've built a whole team, um, with a manager who's now kind of reinventing what that role is with coding agents. So they used to be kind of manually inspecting code.Now they're primarily building agents that can write evals for themselves or LLM judges. There's a really funny day I can send you the picture where Simon, about a year and a half ago, was teaching them how to use GitHub. Um, and they're on the whiteboard and it was like, okay, I think it would be so much faster if our data specialists learned how to use GitHub and like learned how to commit these things in Dakota.And, and that was then and now I think, you know, coding has been a lot more accessible. Um, but moving forward it's this mix of like data scientist PM and prompt engineer because there's craft in understanding like even like what models can and can't do things. How do we define like that headroom? How do we define like what a good journey is?Um, is this model better or not? Why is this failing? There's some qualitative work, but then there's also like a lot of instinct and taste to it, and that's not necessarily software engineering. And so we have like very firm conviction and we have had for a number of years now that that is its own career path and we have always welcomed the misfits, so to speak.So we really firmly believe that you don't need an engineering background to be the best at this job. And that's what's quite unique about this particular role.[00:27:37] Simon Last: Yeah, this is something that I've been pretty excited about recently is we made an effort basically to treat the eval system as like an agent harness.So if you think about it, like, you know, you should be able to have an agent end-to-end, download a dataset, run an eval, iterate on a failure, debug, and, and then implement a fix. And ultimately you should be able to, you know, drive the full time process with a human sort of observing the, you know, the outer uh, system.So yeah, we went, went pretty hard on that. And that's, that's worked extremely well so far. It's like basically just to turn it into a coding agent, uh, uh, problem.[00:28:11] swyx: Your coding agent or just whatever[00:28:13] Simon Last: harness No coding agent. Yeah, code, cloud code. It should be totally general. Yeah. I think if it would be a mistake to like, like fix it on any, any particular coding agent.At the end of the day, it's just like CLI tools.[00:28:21] Sarah Sachs: It's like the same way that you would've a coding agent write the unit test. You should have a coding agent write the eval.[00:28:26] swyx: Yeah.[00:28:26] Sarah Sachs: But there's a lot of supervision in that still. We just don't believe that supervision has to come from software engineers because a lot of it is like, um, kind of you XREE and whatever, and these are the people that also triage failures and tell us where we should be investing next.[00:28:40] swyx: Yeah. I'm gonna go ahead and ask a spicy question. Is there a data, there are no software engineers at Notion.[00:28:46] Simon Last: Um,[00:28:46] Sarah Sachs: what does it mean to be a software engineer?[00:28:47] swyx: Exactly.[00:28:48] Simon Last: I mean, I think the way things are going is like we're on some continuum where. If, if you look back three years ago, humans were typing all the code and then we had auto complete, you're typing list of the code.Then we had sort of like filling agents, filling lines, and now we're getting into like agents doing longer range tasks where you can debug and implement a fix and then verify it works and you know, get your, get your PR even like, like Merion deployed. I think we're sort of just moving up the abstraction ladder and then the human role becomes more about observing and maintaining the outer system.There's a string of agents flowing through, like me prs what's going off the rails. Like what do I need to approve? Is there like a learning or memory mechanism that that works? So it's kind of a hard engineering problem. There's a, you know, there's, there's a lot to do there. I think we're just sort of moving up stack[00:29:34] Sarah Sachs: the same transition machine learning engineers have made, right?Like I haven't looked at a PR curve in a while.[00:29:39] swyx: Yeah. You used to do this stuff and now, um, auto research can do it,[00:29:42] Sarah Sachs: right? Like I think it depends on what you define as a software engineer.[00:29:46] swyx: Yes. It's, that's changing for sure.[00:29:49] Sarah Sachs: I think every software engineer in notion this summer went through like this, um, sheer, um, one of our engineering leads of the company called it, like every software engineer is going through the, the, uh, identity crisis that every manager goes through, where all of a sudden they realize their ability to write code is less important than their ability to delegate in context switch.And I think that is a transition out of being a software engineer. But[00:30:12] Simon Last: yeah. Yeah, there's a critical difference to being a manager, which is that like, it is actually very deeply technical. The problem, you know, humans are very like, like, like fuzzy and you can't like treat a team of humans like a, like a rigorous system where like, you know, prs like, like flow through and can be in like a block status and then what happens when they're blocked, right.With a set of agents, you actually can do that. And, and, and I think it's actually, there's a lot of interesting technical rigor that that goes into that it's like it's a technical design problem. Ultimately.[00:30:42] Alsesio: What is the design of the software factory that you're building?[00:30:46] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, I think we're. Trying a lot of different things.I mean, ultimately you want to design a system that requires as little human intervention as possible, but like still maintaining the in variance that, that you care about. So yeah, we're exploring a lot different ideas there. I mean, I think I could talk about a few things I think are important there.Like, one thing I think is really important is, um, having some kind of like specification layer you can just commit marked on files. Mm-hmm. That works pretty well, but[00:31:15] swyx: it's nice to be notion man. I'm just saying like the spec, like Yeah. The natural home for specs is notion.[00:31:21] Simon Last: Yeah. Right. It can be a database of pages.Yeah. I mean, it needs to be something that is, you know, human readable and I viewable and I think that's pretty key. Another really key component is like the, the self verification loop. Yes. You need really, really good testing layers, basically. And that's a really deep, uh, uh, problem. But by getting that right, you know, and then, and then it's kinda like the workflow of like.What happens when there's a bug? How does it flow into the system? Like, is it like a subagent working on it? How does it make a PR and how does that get reviewed? And me, and then, you know, so there's like the, the flow or process.[00:31:56] swyx: Yeah. Cool. Uh, you know, one thing we did work out before you guys came in was this demo or this[00:32:01] Simon Last: agents[00:32:02] swyx: agent demo.Uh,[00:32:03] Simon Last: so every,[00:32:04] Alsesio: every time we do an episode, we try the product. Right. I don't think there's ever been an episode that I haven't tried. Yeah. Um,[00:32:11] swyx: and we, we try, try is a, a big word. Like since day one lane space has been on Notion, but this is the, this is the net new thing. Yes.[00:32:18] Alsesio: So this is for Nel Labs, which is the space we're in.So next week we're opening applications for tenants. So there's a web form, let me, we got this form done here. Uh, so, uh, before. Uh, the workflow would be I get an email, then I look at the person. It was like, should I spend time talking to this person? Then I respond, they respond back. So I build this. So the name it came up for on its own.Can you maybe h how do, how does it come up with its own name?[00:32:43] Simon Last: Yeah, that's a pretty app name. It's, it, it is just a random, it's a random, a name generator.[00:32:47] Alsesio: Oh, that's funny. It just came,[00:32:49] Simon Last: the fact that it picked that is, is kind of hilarious. I'm pretty sure it's just determined,[00:32:54] Sarah Sachs: resilient collector. I, I think I've never looked at the code for that.I've never second guessed it. I think it's kind of like a madlib situation.[00:33:00] Simon Last: Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. It's, it's totally a, a deterministic. Oh, I thought it was great. Yes. Although, although when the, if you use the AI to set itself up, it can update its own name, so. Okay. Um,[00:33:11] Sarah Sachs: how did you create it? It, did you just do[00:33:12] Alsesio: classroom?I,[00:33:13] Sarah Sachs: okay.[00:33:13] Alsesio: I did, yeah. I'll say just check my inbox for applications for a coworking space. Keep a people, so it created the database for me. Which I have here. And I guess database is like an notion table because everything is notion. Um, and then whenever um, an email comes in, like here, it just creates a new role for the person.Mm-hmm. And then it uses web search to enrich the mm-hmm. The profile. So it kind of like searches the web and it's like, this is who this person is, this is when they say they wanna move in and kind of updates everything else. This is, I mean, it's not a GI, but to me, I don't wanna do this work. So it feels like, I mean, it took me maybe like 15 minutes to set up the whole thing.Um, and I really like that most of the information should live here. You know, it is not like some other tool asking me[00:34:01] Sarah Sachs: Yeah.[00:34:01] Alsesio: To like, bring my stuff there. It's like I would've probably already created an ocean thing.[00:34:06] Sarah Sachs: Mm-hmm.[00:34:06] Alsesio: So[00:34:07] Sarah Sachs: most of our biggest use cases and gains are from. That extra layer of human involvement in the process to make it so right.And so like one of our biggest use cases is bug triaging. So if someone posts something in Slack, can you just have a custom agent that lives there that has its own routing constitution of what team this belongs to, creates a task in your task database and then posts in that Slack channel, right? Like that's like one of the first things that we built internally, I think.And it's completely changed the way that notion functions as a company. Nothing falls through, well, most things don't fall through the crack. We don't know what we don't know. But it's not replacing people, it's replacing processes.[00:34:44] Alsesio: Yeah.[00:34:44] Sarah Sachs: Right.[00:34:45] Alsesio: And I'm curious how you think about composability of these things.So the other one I was working on is like a. These filler. So whenever somebody signs up as a tenant, kind of he'll sell the lease for them. There should probably some agent that is like office manager agent mm-hmm. That can handle the request, make the lease, and then, uh, give them a ADA access to the office and all of that.How do you think about that feature?[00:35:08] Simon Last: Yeah, so I mean, there's, there's two ways you can compose. One way is by using like the data primitives. So you can, you know, you, you could give, you have one agent, uh, be writing to the database and there's another agent that's walked in the database. So that's, that's one way that they, they can coordinate that's like a little bit more decoupled and mm-hmm.Works really well. Or you, you can couple them. So I, I think it's actually not released yet. Releasing it like next week is, uh, in the settings for an agent, you can give access to invoke any other agent.[00:35:34] swyx: Hmm.[00:35:34] Simon Last: So you can have them just. Just, uh, uh, talk directly. So[00:35:37] swyx: you, was there a limit on like, number of recursions or just,[00:35:40] Simon Last: um, probably,[00:35:42] swyx: you know what I mean?Like, you can just get an infinite loop that way there's[00:35:45] Simon Last: some kind of Yeah,[00:35:46] Sarah Sachs: I think it's, there is actually a number somewhere.[00:35:49] swyx: I believe I'm just, you know, like, you're, you're, someone's gonna screw up. You[00:35:51] Simon Last: should you try to see[00:35:53] swyx: Yeah. I mean, everything's gonna be paperclips.[00:35:55] Simon Last: Oh, yeah. Yeah. But, uh, but, but that's really useful.Yeah. So we, you know, like I just, I, I helped, uh, someone internally the other day, they had, they had built like over 30 custom agents for, uh, for our go to market team doing all kinds of different things. You know, for example, like researching, you know, like, like filling information about, about a customer or like, like triaging customer feedback or like, uh, something like that.Literally over 30 of them. And, and then he, and then he even made like a database of all the agents and then he is like, okay, and, and now I'm getting 70, over 70 notifications per day with just the agents are blocked on various things. Uh, and then I was like, oh, okay, cool. You know, the obvious thing to do there is to make a manager agent,[00:36:32] Sarah Sachs: right?[00:36:33] Simon Last: That's gonna sort of blocks be another abstraction layer in between your, your, uh, uh, 30 agents. Uh, so yeah, we, we send out with like a manager agent and then has access to invoke all the other agents and it's sort of like, like watching and observing them and then it sort of, it just creates a layer of abstraction.So instead of 70 notifications per day, it's like, like five. And then, and then the manager agent can help like, uh, debug and fix any problems with the,[00:36:54] swyx: does this is a concept of like an inbox or something like piece, you're basically saying that they can message each other?[00:37:00] Simon Last: Yeah.[00:37:01] Sarah Sachs: Well[00:37:01] swyx: they use the system of record, which, which is[00:37:02] Sarah Sachs: notion, so we[00:37:03] Simon Last: actually, yeah, we didn't make any special concepts at all.[00:37:06] swyx: They're interested to the motion notifications that I would've got,[00:37:09] Sarah Sachs: they can just like write a task to a database that the other agent's task to listening to, or they can actually call a web book to the agent, like they can just add the agent. Okay.[00:37:17] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, this is something that, that we're still working on.I, I think we, you know, like, like generally, generally the way we do these things is, you know, you first make it possible, maybe like a sort of janky way. So I, I, I think the way I set ‘em up is like, you know, we created like a new database that was sort of like issues mm-hmm. That the custom agents were, were experiencing, and then gave them all access to file an issue and then the manager has access to, to read the issues.Um, and that works pretty well, essentially like, like give it its own like internal issue tracker just for the agents. And then, you know, if that becomes a, a concept that seems useful, generally maybe we will think of how to package it in. But I mean, generally we try to just keep it to composing the primitive if we can.You know, another example of this is we have no built-in memory concept. Memory is, is just pages and databases. And so if you wanna give a memory, just give it a page and give it. Edit access to that page and the[00:38:03] swyx: human can edit it. Agent can edit[00:38:04] Simon Last: it. Yeah. And so that works, that pattern works extremely well on it.And you know, depending this case, you can have it be just a page or it could be an entire database with, you know, or, you know, I can have sub pages is is pretty on what you can do with that.[00:38:15] Alsesio: So when I was setting this up, uh, I connected my inbox and it was like, do you wanna use Gmail or Notion Mail? And I'm like, I don't wanna use Eater, I just want you to do it.I'm curious how you think about, you know, notion, mail, notion, calendar, all of these kind of ui ux interfaces, full stack[00:38:29] Simon Last: notion.[00:38:30] Alsesio: Yeah. When like at the same time you have the agents abstracting them away from you in a way, you know, how do you spend like the product calories so to speak?[00:38:37] Simon Last: Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty important that you don't have to use, not your mail to connect to the mail capability.So we can just connect to Gmail or, or whatever you want, uh, to use. And we're thinking of the mail service as being really great to the extent that it's really agent built, right? So maybe the mail app is just sort of a prepackaged agent that helps you automate your, your inbox.[00:39:00] Alsesio: Yeah, the auto labeling is great.Think[00:39:03] Sarah Sachs: the, when we, um, integrate with Gmail for instance, we have a series of tools available that are available via MCP or API to Gmail. When we integrate with Notion Mail, we have the Notion Mail engineering team to build us the, um, exact right tools that optimize latency, optimize performance and quality.They own that quality. Um, there's product leads there. They're directly thinking about the user problems that happen in mail. So it tends to be when we build integrations and connections, we build natively first. Um, and then think about, um, extending them generally just because it's also easier. Mm-hmm. Um, um, to build natively first.Um, so that tends to be how we phase things out.[00:39:43] swyx: Talking about integrations, you prompted me, so I gotta ask. M-C-P-C-L-I. What's going on? What's the[00:39:48] Simon Last: Yeah. Opinion. I think, I mean, I'm, I'm definitely bullish and excited about cli. I think there's a few really cool things about cli. So one really cool thing is like, um, is that it's in the terminal environment, so it gets a bunch of extra power.So it, you know, for example, it can like, like paginating and cursor through like long outputs. Um, and it has a progressive disclosure inherently. Uh, so, you know, you don't see all the tools at once. It's just, you see the CLI wrapper and you can like use the, the help commands and, and, and read files. And then I think the most important thing that's, that's super cool is that there, it's also inherently a, a bootstrapped.So if there's an issue, uh, the agent can debug and fix itself within the same environment that it uses the tool.[00:40:30] swyx: Mm.[00:40:30] Simon Last: Right. Like, you know, I think I saw a tweet this morning. Someone said, you know, my agent didn't have a browser, so I asked it to make all a browser tool and within a hundred lines of code, it gave itself a little browser, like, like wrapping the, the, the chromium API, um.That's pretty incredible. And then if there was a bug, it would just immediately try to fix it. Mm-hmm. Right. On the other hand, if you use an, you know, if you use like of, of the Chrome dev tools, MCP, I've had this issue where like, like sometimes the transport gets like messed up. If it gets messed up, the agent has no way to fix itself.It, it no longer has a browser, it's, it's not broken. Right. I think that's, that's pretty fundamental, but I would say like a lot of the, the bad things about it can be fixed. Uh, so I think like, as a progressive disclosure, that can be fixed with, with right harness. Like, it, it obviously doesn't make sense to show it all the tools all the time.That's not really inherent to the MCP protocol. It's just like how you wrap it and use it.[00:41:16] swyx: There's many poorly built MCPs because we didn't know.[00:41:19] Simon Last: Yeah, yeah. I mean it was just early, like, like the obvious thing is, uh, you know, to start with is, is to just show it all the tools and it's like, okay, now we have a hundred tools.Yeah. And like the tool calling actually works. So let's of[00:41:28] swyx: your success[00:41:29] Simon Last: give it a way to like, like filter to source the tools. So yeah, I would say like broadly speaking, I'm really bullish on cli. I'm still bullish on CPS and in a certain environment. I think in, in particular, CP is really great for when you want sort of like a narrow, lightweight agent.I think there's, there's definitely a lot of use cases where, where you don't want like a full coding agent with a compute run time. And also you want it to be like more tightly permissioned. MCP inherently has a really strong permission model, like all you can do is call the tools. A CLI is a little bit murkier.It's like, can I access the, if PI token are you, like, properly sort of like re-encrypt the token so it can't like exfiltrate it, it introduce a lot of like, like new issues, which are. Real and hard to solve. And MCP is just like the dumb simple thing that works and it that it's pretty good.[00:42:12] Sarah Sachs: I'll add two more perspectives, not from it working well for Notion, but how notion like commits to both platforms.Notion is dedicated to being the best system of record for where people do their enterprise work. So we will always support our MCP and so far as other people are using cps, right? So regardless of our perspective, we've put a lot of effort into our MCP and we have a fantastic team that we're building, um, to do more there.And the second thing I'll say, I think, um, we all think a lot, but lately I've been thinking a lot about making sure there's a value alignment and pricing, um, with capability.[00:42:43] swyx: Literally our next question[00:42:44] Sarah Sachs: and. Needing language to execute deterministic tasks feels wasteful and requiring on a language model to interface with third party providers seems wasteful for tasks that don't require it.And particularly because our custom agents are using usage-based pricing. We think of pricing as like the barrier of entry for use of our product, and we're quite committed to making sure that it's not wasteful. Um, not just because it's a bad deal for our customers, but it's also bad business. We wanna have as many buyers, like there's a, there's an elasticity of demand and so if we can have our agents properly execute code that calls on CLI deterministically, it's a one-time cost, right?Versus constantly having a language model integrate with an MCP over and over and over and paying those like repeated token fees and it's happening outside the cash window, then you're paying for it over and over and over and it's just kind of unnecessary and less deterministic when it doesn't have to be.[00:43:36] Alessio: Yeah, the open-endedness I think is like, the main thing is like, well, if I go write code to just call an API, I would never use an MCP. But then you need an NCP sometimes when you know what to call, but you don't want it to restart versus like, I think the it built a browser from scratch is like, it's great when you're doing it on your own, but like if your customers were having your AI write a browser from scratch every time and you had to pay the token cost of that, yeah.You'd be like, no, no. The Chrome dev tools CP is actually pretty great. Just use that. I'm curious, how do you make that decision? Like should it be. Just straight API call very narrow. Should it be an MCP? Should it be super open-ended?[00:44:10] Sarah Sachs: Do you mean for when we ship notion capabilities or when we add capabilities to[00:44:13] Alessio: notion[00:44:14] Sarah Sachs: AI or,[00:44:14] Alessio: I mean, you might have a capability that the only way to do is an open-ended agent, like an agent with a coding sandbox.[00:44:21] Sarah Sachs: Yeah. In Notion ai they're not explicit, not We also ship an MCP.[00:44:24] Alsesio: Yeah. Yeah. In B,[00:44:25] Sarah Sachs: yeah.[00:44:26] Alsesio: Internally. Okay. Like is there ever a discussion of like, we're not gonna ship it because we're not able to tie it down? Or are you happy to just like,[00:44:33] Sarah Sachs: um, no. I mean, there are a lot of things where we choose not to use MCP because we wanna add more high touch to quality.I think search an agent to find is like the largest instance of that, where we have. Um, slack and linear and Jira search and notion that is not using necessarily the search MCP functionality that is provided by those companies. And that's because it's quite critical we think, to how our agent trajectories work is for us to have a little bit more control on the functionality of the search journey.And so it usually comes from quality and there's a long tail of things and that's why we built an MCP client or an MCP server, excuse me, so that people can connect whatever they want. There's that long tail, right. But we, for search particularly, I would say that's like the primary entry point, but there are other connections as well that it's a little bit of secret sauce a

We're proud to release this ahead of Ryan's keynote at AIE Europe. Hit the bell, get notified when it is live! Attendees: come prepped for Ryan's AMA with Vibhu after.Move over, context engineering. Now it's time for Harness engineering and the age of the token billionaires.Ryan Lopopolo of OpenAI is leading that charge, recently publishing a lengthy essay on Harness Eng that has become the talk of the town:In it, Ryan peeled back the curtains on how the recently announced OpenAI Frontier team have become OpenAI's top Codex users, running a >1m LOC codebase with 0 human written code and, crucially for the Dark Factory fans, no human REVIEWED code before merge. Ryan is admirably evangelical about this, calling it borderline “negligent” if you aren't using >1B tokens a day (roughly $2-3k/day in token spend based on market rates and caching assumptions):Over the past five months, they ran an extreme experiment: building and shipping an internal beta product with zero manually written code. Through the experiment, they adopted a different model of engineering work: when the agent failed, instead of prompting it better or to “try harder,” the team would look at “what capability, context, or structure is missing?”The result was Symphony, “a ghost library” and reference Elixir implementation (by Alex Kotliarskyi) that sets up a massive system of Codex agents all extensively prompted with the specificity of a proper PRD spec, but without full implementation:The future starts taking shape as one where coding agents stop being copilots and start becoming real teammates anyone can use and Codex is doubling down on that mission with their Superbowl messaging of “you can just build things”.Across Codex, internal observability stacks, and the multi-agent orchestration system his team calls Symphony, Ryan has been pushing what happens when you optimize an entire codebase, workflow, and organization around agent legibility instead of human habit.We sat down with Ryan to dig into how OpenAI's internal teams actually use Codex, why the real bottleneck in AI-native software development is now human attention rather than tokens, how fast build loops, observability, specs, and skills let agents operate autonomously, why software increasingly needs to be written for the model as much as for the engineer, and how Frontier points toward a future where agents can safely do economically valuable work across the enterprise.We discuss:* Ryan's background from Snowflake, Brex, Stripe, and Citadel to OpenAI Frontier Product Exploration, where he works on new product development for deploying agents safely at enterprise scale* The origin of “harness engineering” and the constraint that kicked off the whole experiment: Ryan deliberately refused to write code himself so the agent had to do the job end to end* Building an internal product over five months with zero lines of human-written code, more than a million lines in the repo, and thousands of PRs across multiple Codex model generations* Why early Codex was painfully slow at first, and how the team learned to decompose tasks, build better primitives, and gradually turn the agent into a much faster engineer than any individual human* The obsession with fast build times: why one minute became the upper bound for the inner loop, and how the team repeatedly retooled the build system to keep agents productive* Why humans became the bottleneck, and how Ryan's team shifted from reviewing code directly to building systems, observability, and context that let agents review, fix, and merge work autonomously* Skills, docs, tests, markdown trackers, and quality scores as ways of encoding engineering taste and non-functional requirements directly into context the agent can use* The shift from predefined scaffolds to reasoning-model-led workflows, where the harness becomes the box and the model chooses how to proceed* Symphony, OpenAI's internal Elixir-based orchestration layer for spinning up, supervising, reworking, and coordinating large numbers of coding agents across tickets and repos* Why code is increasingly disposable, why worktrees and merge conflicts matter less when agents can resolve them, and what it really means to fully delegate the PR lifecycle* “Ghost libraries”, spec-driven software, and the idea that a coding agent can reproduce complex systems from a high-fidelity specification rather than shared source code* The broader future of Frontier: safely deploying observable, governable agents into enterprises, and building the collaboration, security, and control layers needed for real-world agentic workRyan Lopopolo* X: https://x.com/_lopopolo* Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanlopopolo/* Website: https://hyperbo.la/contact/Timestamps00:00:00 Introduction: Harness Engineering and OpenAI Frontier00:02:20 Ryan's background and the “no human-written code” experiment00:08:48 Humans as the bottleneck: systems thinking, observability, and agent workflows00:12:24 Skills, scaffolds, and encoding engineering taste into context00:17:17 What humans still do, what agents already own, and why software must be agent-legible00:24:27 Delegating the PR lifecycle: worktrees, merge conflicts, and non-functional requirements00:31:57 Spec-driven software, “ghost libraries,” and the path to Symphony00:35:20 Symphony: orchestrating large numbers of coding agents00:43:42 Skill distillation, self-improving workflows, and team-wide learning00:50:04 CLI design, policy layers, and building token-efficient tools for agents00:59:43 What current models still struggle with: zero-to-one products and gnarly refactors01:02:05 Frontier's vision for enterprise AI deployment01:08:15 Culture, humor, and teaching agents how the company works01:12:29 Harness vs. training, Codex model progress, and “you can just do things”01:15:09 Bellevue, hiring, and OpenAI's expansion beyond San FranciscoTranscriptRyan Lopopolo: I do think that there is an interesting space to explore here with Codex, the harness, as part of building AI products, right? There's a ton of momentum around getting the models to be good at coding. We've seen big leaps in like the task complexity with each incremental model release where if you can figure out how to collapse a product that you're trying to.Build a user journey that you're trying to solve into code. It's pretty natural to use the Codex Harness to solve that problem for you. It's done all the wiring and lets you just communicate in prompts. To let the model cook, you have to step back, right? Like you need to take a systems thinking mindset to things and constantly be asking, where is the Asian making mistakes?Where am I spending my time? How can I not spend that time going forward? And then build confidence in the automation that I'm putting in place. So I have solved this part of the SDLC.swyx: [00:01:00] All right.[00:01:03] Meet Ryan swyx: We're in the studio with Ryan from OpenAI. Welcome.Ryan Lopopolo: Hi,swyx: Thanks for visiting San Francisco and thanks for spending some time with us.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah, thank you. I'm super excited to be here.swyx: You wrote a blockbuster article on harness engineering. It's probably going to be the defining piece of this emerging discipline, huh?Ryan Lopopolo: Thank you. It is it's been fun to feel like we've defined the discourse in some sense.swyx: Let's contextualize a little bit, this first podcast you've ever done. Yes. And thank you for spending with us. What is, where is this coming from? What team are you in all that jazz?Ryan Lopopolo: Sure, sure.Ryan Lopopolo: I work on Frontier Product Exploration, new product development in the space of OpenAI Frontier, which is our enterprise platform for deploying agents safely at scale, with good governance in any business. And. The role of VMI team has been to figure out novel ways to deploy our models into package and products that we can sell as solutions to enterprises.swyx: And you have a background, I'll just squeeze it in there. Snowflake, brick, [00:02:00] stripe, citadel.Ryan Lopopolo: Yes. Yes. Same. Any kind of customerswyx: entire life. Yes. The exact kind of customer that you want to,Vibhu: so I'll say, I was actually, I didn't expect the background when I looked at your Twitter, I'm seeing the opposite.Stuff like this. So you've got the mindset of like full send AI, coding stuff about slop, like buckling in your laptop on your Waymo's. Yes. And then I look at your profile, I'm like, oh, you're just like, you're in the other end too. Oh, perfect. Makes perfect.Ryan Lopopolo: I it's quite fun to be AI maximalist if you're gonna live that persona.Open eye is the place to do it. And it'sswyx: token is what you say.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. Certainly helps that we have no rate limits internally. And I can go, like you said, full send at this stay.swyx: Yeah. Yeah. So the Frontier, and you're a special team within O Frontier.Ryan Lopopolo: We had been given some space to cook, which has been super, super exciting.[00:02:47] Zero Code ExperimentRyan Lopopolo: And this is why I started with kind of a out there constraint to not write any of the code myself. I was figuring if we're trying to make agents that can be deployed into end to enterprises, they should be [00:03:00] able to do all the things that I do. And having worked with these coding models, these coding harnesses over 6, 7, 8 months, I do feel like the models are there enough, the harnesses are there enough where they're isomorphic to me in capability and the ability to do the job.So starting with this constraint of I can't write the code meant that the only way I could do my job was to get the agent to do my job.Vibhu: And like a, just a bit of background before that. This is basically the article. So what you guys did is five months of working on an internal tool, zero lines of code over a mi, a million lines of code in the total code base.You say it was cenex, more like it was cenex faster than you would've. If you had done it by end. SoRyan Lopopolo: yeah, thatVibhu: was the mindset going into this, right?Ryan Lopopolo: That's right.[00:03:46] Model Upgrades LessonsRyan Lopopolo: Started with some of the very first versions of Codex CLI, with the Codex Mini model, which was obviously much less capable than the ones we have today.Which was also a very good constraint, right? Quite a visceral feeling to ask the [00:04:00] model to build you a product feature. And it just not being able to assemble the pieces together.Which kind of defined one of the mindsets we had for going into this, which is whenever the model just cannot, you always pop open at the task, double click into it, and build smaller building blocks that then you can reassemble into the broader objective.And it was quite painful to do this. Honestly, the first month and a half was. 10 times slower than I would be. But because we paid that cost, we ended up getting to something much more productive than any one engineer could be because we built the tools, the assembly station for the agent to do the whole thing.[00:04:43] Model Generations, Build Systems & Background ShellsRyan Lopopolo: But yeah, so onward to G BT 5, 5, 1, 5, 2, 5, 3, 5 4. To go through all these model generations and see their kind of corks and different working styles also meant we had to adapt the code base to change things up when the model was revved. [00:05:00] One interesting thing here is five two, the Codex harness at the time did not have background shells in it, which means we were able to rely on blocking scripts to perform long horizon work.But with five, three and background shells, it became less patient, less willing to block. So we had to retool the entire build system to complete in under a minute and. This is not a thing I would expect to be able to do in a code base where people have opinions. But because the only goal was to make the Asian productive over the course of a week, we went from a bespoke make file build to Basil, to turbo to nx and just left it there because builds were fast at that point.swyx: Interesting. Talk more about Turbo TenX. That's interesting ‘cause that's the other direction that other people have been doing.Ryan Lopopolo: Ultimately I have. Not a lot of experience with actual frontend repo architecture.swyx: You're talking that Jessica built the sky. So I'm like, I know the NX team. I know Turbo from Jared [00:06:00] Palmer.And I'm like, yeah, that's an interesting comparison.[00:06:02] One Minute Build LoopRyan Lopopolo: The hill we were climbing right, was make it fast.swyx: Is there a micro front end involved? Is it how how complex reactRyan Lopopolo: electron base single app sort of thingswyx: And must be under a minute. That's an interesting limitation. I'm actually not super familiar with the background shelf stuff.Probably was talked about in the fight three release.Ryan Lopopolo: BA basically means that codex is able to spawn commands in the background and then go continue to work while it waits for them to finish. So it can spawn an expensive build and then continue reviewing the code, for example.swyx: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: And this helps it be more time efficient for the user invoking the harness.swyx: And I guess and just to really nail this, like what does one minute matter? Like why not five, okay, good. We want no. WeRyan Lopopolo: want the inner loop to be as fast as possible. Okay. One minute was just a nice round number and we were able to hit it.swyx: And if it doesn't complete, it kills it or some something,Ryan Lopopolo: No.We just take that as a signal that we need to stop what we're doing, double click, decompose a build graph a bit to get us to high back under so that we [00:07:00] can able the agent continue to operate.swyx: It's almost like you're, it's like a ratchet. It's like you're forcing build time discipline, because if you don't, it'll just grow and grow.That's right. And you mentioned that my current, like the software I work on currently is at 12 minutes. It sucks.Ryan Lopopolo: This has been my experience with platform teams in the past, where you have an envelope of acceptable build times and you let it go up to breach and then you spend two, three weeks to bring it back down to the lower end of the average low bed stop.But because tokens are so cheap Yeah. And we're so insanely parallel with the model, we can just constantly be gardening this thing to make sure that we maintain these in variants, which means. There's way less dispersion in the code and the SDLC, which means we can simplify in a way and rely on a lot more in variance as we write the software.[00:07:45] Observability, Traces & Local Dev StackVibhu: Lovely.[00:07:46] Humans Are BottleneckVibhu: You mentioned in your article, like humans became the bottleneck, right? You kicked off as a team of three people. You're putting out a million line of code, like 1500 prs, basically. What's the mindset there? So as much as code is disposable, you're doing a lot of review. A lot [00:08:00] of the article talks about how you wanna rephrase everything is prompting everything, is what the agent can't see.It's kind of garbage, right? You shouldn't have it in there. So what's like the high level of how you went about building it, and then how you address okay, humans are just PR review. Like how is human in the loop for this?Ryan Lopopolo: We've moved beyond even the humans reviewing the code as well.[00:08:19] Human Review, PR Automation & Agent Code ReviewRyan Lopopolo: Most of the human review is post merge at this point.But post, post merge, that's not even reviewed. That's justswyx: Oh, let's just make ourselves happy by YouRyan Lopopolo: haven't used fundamentally. The model is trivially paralyzable, right? As many GPUs and tokens as I am willing to spend, I can have capacity to work with my hood base.The only fundamentally scarce thing is the synchronous human attention of my team. There's only so many hours in the day we have to eat lunch. I would like to sleep, although it's quite difficult to, stop poking the machine because it makes me want to feed it. You have to step back, right?Like you need to take a systems thinking mindset to things and [00:09:00] constantly be asking where is the agent making mistakes? Where am I spending my time? How can I not spend that time going forward? And then build confidence in the automation that I'm putting in place. So I have solved this part of the SDLC, and usually what that has looked like is like we started needing to pay very close attention to the code because the agent did not have the right building blocks to produce.Modular software that decomposed appropriately that was reliable and observable and actually accrued a working front end in these things, right?[00:09:35] Observability First SetupRyan Lopopolo: So in order to not spend all of our time sitting in front of a terminal at most, doing one or two things at a time, invested in giving the model that observability, which is that that graph in the post here.swyx: Yeah. Let's walk through this traces and which existed firstRyan Lopopolo: we started with just the app and the whole rest of it. From vector through to all these login metrics, APIs was, I dunno, half an [00:10:00] afternoon of my time. We have intentionally chosen very high level fast developer tools. There's a ton of great stuff out there now.We use me a bunch, which makes it trivial to pull down all these go written Victoria Stack binaries in our local development. Tiny little bit of python glue to spin all these up. And off you go. One neat thing here is we have tried to invert things as much as possible, which is instead of setting up an environment to spawn the coding agent into, instead we spawn the coding agent, like that's the entry point.It's just Codex. And then we give Codex via skills and scripts the ability to boot the stack if it chooses to, and then tell it how to set some end variables. So the app and local Devrel points at this stack that it has chosen to spin up. And this I think is like the fundamental difference between reasoning models and the four ones and four ohs of the past, where these models could not think so you had to put them in [00:11:00] boxes with a predefined set of state transitions.Whereas here we have the model, the harness be the whole box. And give it a bunch of options for how to proceed with enough context for it to make intelligent choices. SoVibhu: sales, so like a lot of that is around scaffolding, right? Yes. Previous agents, you would define a scaffold. It would operate in that.Lube, try again. That's pivoted off from when we've had reasoning models. They're seeming to perform better when you don't have a scaffold, right? That's right.[00:11:28] Docs Skills GuardrailsVibhu: And you go into like niches here too, like your SPEC MD and like having a very short agent MG Agent md.swyx: Yes. Yes.Vibhu: Yeah. So you even lay out what it is here, but I likeswyx: the table contents.Vibhu: Yeah.swyx: Like stuff like this, it really helps guide people because everyone's trying to do this.Ryan Lopopolo: This structure also makes it super cheap to put new content into the repository to steer both the humans and the agents.swyx: You, you reinvented skills, right?Vibhu: One big agents andswyx: skills from first princip holdsRyan Lopopolo: all skills did not exist when we started doing this.Vibhu: You have a short [00:12:00] one 100 line overall table of contents and then you have little skills, right? Core beliefs, MD tech tracker. Yeah. Yeah. The scale is overRyan Lopopolo: The tech jet tracker and the quality score are pretty interesting because this is basically a tiny little scaffold, like a markdown table, which is a hook for Codex to review all the business logic that we have defined in the app, assess how it matches all these documented guardrails and propose follow up work for itself.Before beads and all these ticketing systems, we were just tracking follow up work as notes in a markdown file, which, we could spa an agent on Aron to burn down. There's this really neat thing that like the models fundamentally crave text. So a lot of what we have done here is figure out ways to inject textswyx: intoRyan Lopopolo: the system right when we get a page, because we're missing a timeout, for example.I can just add Codex in Slack on that page and say, I'm gonna fix this by adding a timeout. Please update our reliability documentation. To require that all network calls have [00:13:00] timeouts. So I have not only made a point in time fix, but also like durably encoded this process knowledge around what good looks like.swyx: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: And we give that to the root coding agent as it goes and does the thing. But you can also use that to distill tests out of, or a code review agent, which is pointed at the same things to narrow the acceptable universe of the code that's produced.swyx: I think one of the concerns I have with that kind of stuff is you think you're making the right call by making, it's persisted for all time across everything.Yes. But then you didn't think about the exceptions that you need to make, right? And that you have to roll it back.Vibhu: Part of it isswyx: also sometimes it can follow your s instructions too.Vibhu: It's somewhat a skill, right? So it determines when it uses the tools, right? Like it's not like it'll run outta every call.It'll determine when it wants to check quality score, right?Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. And we do in the prompts we give these agents, allow them to push back,[00:13:51] Agent Code Review RulesRyan Lopopolo: When we first started adding code review agents to the pr, it would be Codex, CLI. Locally writes the change, pushes up a PR on [00:14:00] those PR synchronizations of review agent fires.It posts a comment. We instruct Codex that it has to at least acknowledge and respond to that feedback. And initially the Codex driving the code author was willing to be bullied by the PR reviewer, which meant you could end up in a situation where things were not converging. So yeah, we had to,swyx: he's just a thrash.Ryan Lopopolo: We had to add more optionality to the prompts on both of these things, right? The reviewer agents were instructed to bias toward merging the thing to not surface anything greater than a P two in priority. We didn't really define P two, but we gave it, youswyx: did define P two.Ryan Lopopolo: We gave it a framework within which to score its outputswyx: and then greater than P zero is worse, right?Yes. P two is very good.Ryan Lopopolo: P zero is you will mute the code place ifswyx: you merch thisRyan Lopopolo: thing, right?swyx: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: But also on the code authoring agent side, we also gave it the flexibility to either defer or push back against review feedback, right? This happens all the time, right? Like I happen to notice something and leave a code review, [00:15:00] which.Could blow up the scope by a factor of two. I usually don't mean for that to be addressed Exactly. In the moment. It's more of an FYI file it to the backlog, pick it up in the next fix it week sort of thing. And without the context that this is permissible, the coding agents are gonna bias toward what they do, which is following instructions.swyx: Yeah.[00:15:19] Autonomous Merging Flowswyx: I do wanted to check in on a couple things, right? Sure. All the coding review agent, it can merge autonomously. I think that's something that a lot of people aren't comfortable with. And you have a list here of how much agents do they do Product code and tests, CI configuration and release tooling, internal Devrel tools, documentation eval, harness review, comments, scripts that manage the repository itself, production dashboard definition files, like everything.Yes. And so they're just all churning at the same time, is there like a record that, that any human on the team pulls to stop everythingRyan Lopopolo: Because we are building a native application here. We're not doing continuous deploy. So there's still a human in the loop for cutting the release branch.I see. We require a blessed [00:16:00] human approved smoke test of the app before we promote it to distribution, these sort of things.swyx: So you're working on the app, you're not building like infrastructure where you have like nines of reliability, that kinda stuff?Ryan Lopopolo: That's correct. That's correct. Okay. And also like full recognition here that all of this activity took in a completely greenfield repository.There's. Should be no script that this applies generally toswyx: this is a production thing, you're gonna shipRyan Lopopolo: toswyx: customers. Of course. Yeah, of course. So this is realVibhu: And like one of the things there is, you mentioned you started this as a repo from scratch. The onboarding first month or so was pretty, it was like working backwards, right?Yeah. And then you had to work with the system and now you're at that point where you know, you're very autonomous. I'm curious like, okay, so what, how human in the loop is it? So what are the bottlenecks that you wish you could still automate? And part of that is also like, where do you see the model trajectory improving and offloading more human in the loop?We just got 5.4. It's a really good,Ryan Lopopolo: fantastic model, by the way.Vibhu: Yeah. Yeah. It's the first one that's merged. Top tier coding. So it's codex level coding and reasoning. So general reasoning both in one model. SoRyan Lopopolo: andVibhu: computer [00:17:00] use vision.Ryan Lopopolo: Now we now with five four, I can just have Codex write the blog post, whereas for this one I had to balance between chat.swyx: Oh, I need to, I might be out of a job. Oh my God.Ryan Lopopolo: Oh,swyx: I know. You just gave me an idea for a completely AI newsletter that five four could do. Yeah, I get it Now.Ryan Lopopolo: This sort of thing is just one example of closing the loop, right? Like the dashboard thing you mentioned. We have Codex authoring the Js ON, for the Grafana dashboards and publishing them and also responding to the pages, which means when it gets the page, it knows exactly which dashboards are defined and what alerts.What alert was triggered by which exact log in the code base. ‘cause all of this stuff is collated together.swyx: It has to own everything.Yes. Yeah. Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: And it means that if we have an outage that did not result in a page. It has the existing set of dashboards available to it. It has the existing set of metrics and logs and can figure out where the gaps in the dashboard are or [00:18:00] in the underlying metrics and fix them in one go.In the same way, you would have a full stack engineer be able to drive a feature from the backend all the way to the front end.Vibhu: So it, it seems like a lot of the work you guys had to do was you as a small team are fully working for a way that the model wants the software to be written. It's like less human legible for better. Code legibility, agent legibility. How do you think that affects broader teams? So one at OpenAI, do liaison, like this is how software should be written. Like I can imagine, say you join a new team with this methodology, this mindset there's ways that, teams do code review, teams write code, like teams are structured and a lot of it is for human legibility.So should we all swap? Like how does this play back one broader into OpenAI and then like broader into the software engineering, right? Is it like teams that pick this up will it's pretty drastic, right? You have to make a pretty big switch. Should they just full send Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: The mindset is very much that I'm removed from the process, right? I can't really have deep code level opinions about [00:19:00] things. It's as if I'm. Group tech leading a 500 person organization.Vibhu: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: Like it's not appropriate for me to be in the weeds on every pr. This is why that post merge code review thing is like a good analog here, right?Like I have some representative sample of the code as it is written, and I have to use that to infer what the teams are struggling with, where they could use help, where they're already moving quickly and I can pivot my focus elsewhere.Vibhu: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: So I don't really have too many opinions around the code as it is written.I do, however, have a command based class, which is used to have repeatable chunks of business logic that comes with tracing and metrics and observability for free. And the thing to focus on is not how that business logic is structured, but that it uses this primitive ‘cause I know that's gonna give leverage by default.Vibhu: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah, back to that sort of systems stinking,Vibhu: and you have part of that in your blog post, enforcing architecture and ta taste how you set boundaries for what's used. There's also a section on redefining [00:20:00] engineering and stuff, but yeah, it's just, it's interesting to hear,Ryan Lopopolo: and as the models have gotten better, they have gotten better at proposing these abstractions to unblock themselves, which again, lets me move higher and higher up the stack to look deeper into the future on what ultimately blocked the team from shipping.swyx: Yeah. You mentioned so you, this is primarily a, it is like a 1 million line of code base electron app. But it manages its own services as well, so it's like a backend for front end type thing.Ryan Lopopolo: We do have a backend in there, but that's hosted in the cloud.Yeah. This sort of structure is actually within the separate main and render processesWithin theswyx: electric.That's just how electronic works.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah, of course. So have also treated like. MVC style decomposition with the same level of rigor, which has been very fun.swyx: I have a fun pun. This is a tangent, NVC is model view controller. Any sort of full stack web Devrel knows that.But my AI native version of this is Model view Claw, the clause the harness.Ryan Lopopolo: That's right. That's right. I do think that there is an interesting space to [00:21:00] explore here with Codex, the harness as part of building AI products, right? There's a ton of momentum around getting the models to be good at coding.We've seen big leaps in like the task complexity with each incremental model release where if you can figure out how to collapse a product that you're trying to build, a user journey that you're trying to solve into code, it's pretty natural to use the Codex Harness to solve that problem for you. It's done all the wiring and lets you just communicate and prompts to let the model cook.Yeah. It's been very fun. And there's also a very engineering legible way of increasing capabil. It's fantastic, right? Yeah. Just give you, just give the model scripts, the same scripts you would already build for yourself.swyx: Yeah.Yeah. So for listeners, this is Ryan saying that software engineering or coding against will eat knowledge work like the non-coding parts that you would normally think.Oh, you have to build a separate agent for it. No, start a coding agent and go out from there. Which open Claw has like it's pie Underhood.Ryan Lopopolo: [00:22:00] Yes.Vibhu: Basically define your task in code. Everything is a codingswyx: agent by the way. Since I brought it up, it's probably the only place we bring it up. Is any open claw usage from you?Any?Ryan Lopopolo: No. No. Not for me. I don't have any spare Mac Minis rattling around my house.swyx: You can afford it? No. I just, I'm curious if it's changed anything in opening eye yet, but it's probably early days. And then the other, the other thing I, I wanna pull on here is like you mentioned ticketing systems and you mentioned prs and I'm wondering if both those things have to go away or be reinvented for this kind of coding.So the git itself and is like very hostile to multi-agent.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. We make very heavy use of work trees.swyx: But like even then, like I just did a, dropped a podcast yesterday with Cursors saying, and they said they're getting rid of work trees ‘cause it still has too many merge conflicts.It's still un too un unintuitive. But go ahead.Ryan Lopopolo: The models are really great at resolving merge conflicts. Yeah. And to get to a state where I'm not synchronously in the loop in my terminal, I almost don't care that there are mergeswyx: with disposable.[00:23:00] Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: We invoke a dollar land skill and that coaches codex to push the PR Wait for human and agent reviewers Wait for CI to be green.Fix the flakes if there are any merged upstream. If the PR comes into conflict, wait for everything to pass. Put it in the merge queue. Deal with flakes until it's in Maine. End. This is what it means to delegate fully, right? This is in a, very large model re probably a significant tax on humans to get PRS merged, but the agent is more than capable of doing this and I really don't have to think about it other than keep my laptop open.swyx: Yeah. I used to be much more of a control freak, but now I'm like, yeah, actually you could do a better job of this than me. Yeah. With the right context. Yes.[00:23:47] Encoding Requirementsswyx: Anything else in harness in general? Just this piece, I just wanna make sure we,Ryan Lopopolo: I think one thing that I maybe didn't make super clear in the article that I heard on Twitter as an interesting, that's respond [00:24:00]swyx: to them.What's the chatter and then what's your response?Ryan Lopopolo: Ultimately, all the things that we have encoded in docs and tests and review agents and all these things are ways to put all the non-functional requirements of building high scale, high quality, reliable software into a space that prompt injects the agent.We either write it down as docs, we add links where the error messages tell how to do the right thing. So the whole meta of the thing is to basically tease out of the heads of all the engineers on my team, what they think good looks like, what they would do by default, or what they would coach a new hire on the team to do to get things to merch.And that's why we pay attention to all the mistakes, mistakes that the agent makes, right? This is code being written that is misaligned with some as yet not written down, non-functional requirement.swyx: Sorry, what? Did the online people misunderstand orRyan Lopopolo: No,swyx: whatyouRyan Lopopolo: responded to? Somebody just literally said that.I was like, oh yeah,swyx: okay,Ryan Lopopolo: This is the [00:25:00] thing. This is what I've been doing. Oh, youswyx: agree? Yeah. I see. Interesting.Ryan Lopopolo: One other neat thing, which I did totally did not expect is folks were just. Taking the link to the article and giving it to pi or Codex and say, make my repo this,Vibhu: you achi a whole recursion.Ryan Lopopolo: And it was wildly effective. Really? It was wildly effective. NoVibhu: way. It just actually is something I tried with five, four yesterday. I didn't have time. Last time I was like out speaking of something, and this is one of my things, I was like, okay, I have this article. Can we just scaffold out what it would be like to run this?And I, I did it first as that and then I was like, okay, let me take another little side repo and say okay, if I was to fully automate this like this because I haven't written a line of code, it'sRyan Lopopolo: like over full, setVibhu: it right. The side thing I'm doing of voice. TTS I'm just like, slobbing out, whatever.It's nothing production. I'm like, how would I make this like this? And it's actually like a really good way. It's like a good way to learn what could be changed, what could be like, it's just a good analyzing, right? You give it all the codes, you give it all the context, you give it the article and it walks you through it very well.That's right. That's right.[00:25:57] Inlining Dependencies[00:25:57] Dependencies Going Away & Brett Taylor's Responseswyx: I guess one more thing before we go to Symphony is I wanted to cover [00:26:00] Brett Taylor's response. We had him on the show. He is your chairman, which is wild. Yeah. That he's reading your articles as well and like getting engaged in it. He says software dependencies are going away.Basically they can just be like vendored. Yes. Response.Ryan Lopopolo: Aswyx: hundred percent. A hundred percent agree. You still pro qr, you still pay Datadog. You still pay Temporal. Thank you.Ryan Lopopolo: Yep. The level of complexity of the dependencies that we can internalize is, I would say low, medium right now. Just based on model capability.What does the,swyx: what is medium?Ryan Lopopolo: I would say like a. A couple thousand line dependency is a thing that we could in-house No problem. Call in an afternoon of time. One neat thing about it is like probably most of that code you don't even need. Like by in-house and abstraction, you can strip away all the generic parts of it and only focus on what you need to enable the specific thing.Yes. You're building,swyx: I've been calling this the end of b******t plugins.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah.swyx: Because there's so much when I published an open source thing, I want to accept everything, be liberal. I want to accept, this is post's law, but that means there's so much bloat. Yes. There's so much overhead.Ryan Lopopolo: One other neat thing about [00:27:00] this too is when we deploy Codex Security on the repo, it is able to deeply review and change. The internalized dependencies in a much lower friction way than it would be to like, push patches upstream, wait for them to be released, pull them down, make sure that's compatible with all the transitive I have in my repo and things like that.So it's also much lower friction to internalize some of these things if code is free. ‘cause the tokens are cheap sort of thing.swyx: Yeah. Yeah. I think like the only argument I have against this is basically scale testing, which obviously the larger pieces of software like Linux, MySQL, he calls up even the Datadog and Temporals and then maybe security testing where Yes.Classically, I think, is it linis tos, it said security open source is the best disinfectant.Ryan Lopopolo: Many eyes.swyx: Many eyes. And if inline your dependencies and code them up, you're gonna have to relearn mistakes from other people that Yep.Ryan Lopopolo: Yep. And to internalize that dependency, you're back to zero and you have to start.Reassembling all those bits and pieces to Yeah. Have [00:28:00] high confidence in the code as it is written. Yeah.Vibhu: Even part of the first intro of this, you basically mentioned like everything was written by codex, including internal tooling, right? So internal tooling, like when you're visualizing what's going on it's writing it for itself.swyx: Yeah. I'm built internal tools way I now, and like I just show them off and they're like, how long did you spend? And I didn't spend any time. I just prompted it,Ryan Lopopolo: very funny story here.swyx: Yeah, go ahead.Ryan Lopopolo: We had deployed our app to the first dozen users internally had some performance issues, so we asked them to export a trace for us get a tar ball, gave it to our on-call engineer, and he did a fantastic job of working with Codex to build this beautiful local Devrel tool, next JS app, the drag and drop the tar ball in, and it visualizes the entire trace.It's fantastic. Took an afternoon, but none of this was necessary. Because you could just spin up codex and give it the tar ball and ask the same thing and get the response immediately. So in a way, optimizing for human [00:29:00] legibility of that debugging process was wrong. It kept him in the loop unnecessarily when instead he could have just like Codex cooked for five minutes and gotten this same.swyx: Yeah, you verify your instincts here of this is how we used to do it. Or this is how I would have used to solve it.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. In this local observability stack. Like sure, you can de deploy Yeager to visualize the traces, but I wouldn't expect to be looking at the traces in the first place because I'm not gonna write the code to fix them.swyx: Yeah. So basically there needs to be like this kind of house stack and owning the whole loop. I think that is very well established. And it sounds like you might be like sharing more about that in the future, right?Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. I think we're excited to do[00:29:36] Ghost Libraries Specs[00:29:36] Ghost Libraries & Distributing Software as SpecsRyan Lopopolo: We're gonna talk about Symphony in a little bit, but like the way we distribute it as a spec, which I think folks are calling Ghost Libraries on Twitter.This is like a such a cool name. It does mean it becomes much cheaper to share software with the world, right? You define a spec, how you could build your own specifying as much as is required for a coding agent to reassemble it [00:30:00] locally. The flow here is very cool. Like we have taken. All the scaffolding that has existed in our proprietary repo spun up a new one.Ask Codex with our repo as a reference. Write the spec. We tell it. Spin up a team ox spawn a disconnected codex to implement the spec. Wait for it to be done. Spawn another codex and another team ox to review the spec com or review the implementation compared to upstream and update the spec so it diverges less.And then you just loop over and over Ralph style until you get a spec that is with high fidelity able to reproduce the system as it is. It's fantastic.Vibhu: And you're basically, you're not really adding any of your human bias in there, right? That's correct. A lot of times people write a spec and be like, okay, I think it should be done this way, and you'll riff on something.And it's no, the agent could have just handled it like you're still scaffolding in a sense, right? I want it done this way. It can determine its spec better.swyx: That's right. That's right. Part of me it, I'm, I've been working a lot on evals recently, and part of me is wondering if [00:31:00] an agent can produce a spec that it cannot solve.Is it always capable of things that he can imagine or can you imagine things that it is impossible to do?Ryan Lopopolo: I think with Symphony, we, there's like this there's this axis where you have things that are easier, hard, or established or new, right? And I think things that are hard and new is still something that the models need humans.Yeah. Drive.swyx: Yeah. Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: But I think those other quadrants are largely salt. Given the right scaffold and the right thing that's gonna drive the agent to completion,swyx: it's crazy that it solved,Ryan Lopopolo: but it means that the humans, the ones with limited time and attention get to work on the hardest stuff, like the problems where it's pure white space out in front. Or like the deepest refactorings where you don't know what the proper shape of the interfaces are. And this is where I wanna spend my time. ‘cause it lets me set up for the next level of scale.swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Let's introduce Symphony.I think we've been mentioning it every now and then. Elixir. Interesting option.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah.swyx: Yeah. I'm not,Ryan Lopopolo: again, like the [00:32:00] elixir manifestation here is just a derivative. Is it a modelswyx: chosen? Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. Yeah. And it chose that because the process supervision and the gen servers are super amenable to the type of process orchestration that we're doing here.You are essentially spinning up little Damons for every task that is in execution and driving it to completion, which. Means the mall gets a ton of stuff for free by using Elixir and the Beam.swyx: I had to go do a crash course in Beam and Elixir, and I think most people are not operating at that scale of concurrency where you need that.But it is a good mental model for Resum ability and all those things. And these are things I care about. But tell me the story, the origin story of Symphony. What do you use it for? Is this, how did it form maybe any abandoned paths that you didn't take?[00:32:46] Terminal Free Orchestration[00:32:46] Symphony: Removing Humans from the LoopRyan Lopopolo: At the end of December we were at about three and a half PRS per engineer per day.This was before five two came out in the beginning of January. Everyone gets back from holiday with five two and no other work [00:33:00] on the repository. We were up in the five to 10 PRS per day per engineer. And I don't know about y'all, but like it's very taxing to constantly be switching like that. Like I was pretty tapped out at the end of the day, again, where are the humans spending their time? They're spending their time context switching between all these active tmox pains to drive the agent forward.swyx: Yeah. No way. Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: So let's again, build something to remove ourselves from the loop. And this is what frantic sprinted adapt here to find a way to remove the need for the human to sit in front of their terminal.So a lot of experimentation with Devrel boxes and, automatically spinning up agents, like it seems like a fantastic end state here, where my life is beach. I open live twice a day and say yes no to these things. Yeah. And this is again, a super, super interesting framing for how the work is done.Because I become more latency and sensitive. I have [00:34:00] way less attachment to the code as it is written. Like I've had close to zero investment in the actual authorship experience. So if it's garbage. I can just throw it away and not care too much about it. In Symphony, there's this like rework state where once the PR is proposed and it's escalated to the human for review, it should be a cheap review.It is either mergeable or it is not. And if it's not, you move it to rework. The elixir service will completely trash the entire work tree NPR and start it again from scratch. Okay. And this is that opportunity again to say, why was it trash right? What did the agent do that wasswyx: bad. Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: Fix that before moving the ticket toswyx: endRyan Lopopolo: of progress again.swyx: Yeah. Why is this not in codex app? I guess this, you guys are ahead of Codex app,Ryan Lopopolo: yeah, so the way the team has been working is basically to be as AI pilled as possible and spread ahead. And a lot of the things we have worked on have fallen out [00:35:00] into a lot of the products that we have.Like we were in deep consultation with the Codex team to. Have the Codex app be a thing that exists, right? To have skills be a thing that Codex is able to use. So we didn't have to roll our own to put automations into the product. So all of our automatic refactoring agents didn't have to be these hand rolled control loops.It has been really fantastic to be, in a way, un anchored to the product development of Frontier and Codex and just very quickly try to figure out what works and then later find the scalable thing that can be deployed widely. It's been a very fun way to operate. It's certainly chaotic. I have lost track very often of what the actual state of the code looks like.‘cause I'm not in the loop. There was. One point where we had wired playwright directly up to the Electron app. With MCPM CCPs, I'm pretty bearish on because the harness forcibly injects all those tokens in the [00:36:00] context, and I don't really get a say over it. They mess with auto compaction. The agent can forget how to use the tool.There's probably only what three calls in playwright that I actually ever want to use. So I pay the cost for a ton of things. Somebody vibed a local Damon that boots playwright and exposes a tiny little shim CLI to drive it. And I had zero idea that this had occurred because to me, I run Codex and it's able to, it's oh, it's better.Yeah. Like no knowledge of this at all. Uhhuh.[00:36:30] Multi Human ChaosRyan Lopopolo: So we have had like in human space to spend a lot of time doing synchronous knowledge sharing. We have a daily standup that's 45 minutes long because we almost have to. Fan out the understanding of the current state.swyx: Yeah, I was gonna say this is good for a single human multi-agent, but multi human, multi-agent is a whole like po like explosion of stuff.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. And that this is fundamentally why we have such a rigid, like 10,000 [00:37:00] engineer level architecture in the app because we have to find ways to carve up the space so people are not trampling on each other.swyx: Sorry, I don't get the 10,000 thing. Did I miss that?Ryan Lopopolo: The structure of the repository is like 500 NPM packages.It's like architecture to the excess for what you would consider, I think normal for a seven person team. But if every person is actually like 10 to 50. Then the like numbers on being super, super deep into decomposition and sharding and like proper interface boundaries make a lot more sense.swyx: Yeah. To me, that's why I talked about Microfund ends and I, an anex is from that world, but Cool. It is just coming back to, to, to this I dunno if you have other, thoughts on. Orchestrating so much work coin going through this. Is this enough? Is this like any aha moments?Vibhu: It'll be interesting to see like where, okay, so right now you pick linear as your issue tracker, right?swyx: Or it's like a is it actually linear? This is actually linear.[00:37:55] Linear vs Slack WorkflowVibhu: Oh, that's linear. It's linear.swyx: Oh I never looked atVibhu: video. The demo video I had to download to [00:38:00] run.swyx: So I, because I'm a Slack maxie, but Yeah, linear. Linear is also really good. Yes,Ryan Lopopolo: we do make a good use of Slack. We we fire off codex to do all these lotion, elasticity, fix ups, the things that like sync that knowledge into the repository.It's super cheap. Yeah.swyx: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: Just do it in Codex.swyx: My biggest plug is OpenAI needs to build Slack. You need to own Slack. Build yours. Turn this into Slack.Ryan Lopopolo: I did read about it. Youswyx: did?Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah.[00:38:25] Collaboration Tools for AgentsRyan Lopopolo: I would say that if we think that we want these agents to do economically valuable work, which is like this is the mission, right?We want AI to be deployed widely, to do economically valuable work, then we need to find ways for them to naturally collaborate with humans, which means collaboration tooling, I think, is an interesting space to explore.swyx: Yeah, totally. Yeah. GitHub, slack, linear.Vibhu: Yeah, that was my thing. Okay, where do we see right now Codex has started Codex Model, then CLI, now there's an app, app can let me shoot off multiple Codex is in parallel, but there's no great team collaboration for Codex.And it [00:39:00] seems like your team had some say into what comes out, right? So you talked to ‘em, codex kind of was a thing. From there, if you guys are on the bound, what stuff that like, you might not focus on, but what do you expect other people to be building, right? So people that are like five x 50 Xing.Should you build stuff that's like very niche for your workflow, for your team? Should it be more general so other people can adopt? Is there a niche there? ‘Cause part of it is just okay, is everything just internal tooling? Do we have everything our own way? Like the way our team operates has our own ways that we like to communicate or is there a broader way to do it?Is it something like a issue tracker? Just thoughts if you wanna riff on that.[00:39:35] Standardizing Skills and CodeRyan Lopopolo: I think TBD we have not figured this out in a general way. I do think that there is leverage to be had in making the code and the processes as much the same as possible. If you think that code is context, code is prompts, it's better from the agent behavior perspective to be able to look in a package in directory X, Y, Z, and it not to have to page so [00:40:00] deeply into directory if you C, because they have the same structure, use the same language, they have the same patterns internally.And that same like leverage comes from aligning on a single set of skills that you're pouring every engineer's taste into to make sure that the agent is effective. So like in our code base, we have, I think, six skills. That's it. And if some part of the software development loop is not being covered, our first attempt is to encode it in one of the existing setup skills, which means that we can change the agent behavior.Yeah. More cheaply than changing the human driver behavior.swyx: Yeah.[00:40:39] Self Improvement via Logsswyx: Have you ever, have you experimented with agents changing their own behavior?Ryan Lopopolo: We do.swyx: Yeah. Or parent agent changing a subagents, behavior or something like that.Ryan Lopopolo: We have some bits for skill distillation. So for example, there's one neat thing you can do with Codex, which is just point it at its own session logs to ask it to tell you how you can use [00:41:00] the tool pedal better.swyx: It's like introspectionRyan Lopopolo: or ask it to do things. I useVibhu: this session better. What skills should Iswyx: high? I like the modification of, you can do, just do things to you can just ask agent to do things.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. You can just codex things. This is like a, this is like a silly emoji that we have, right? You can just codex things, you can just prompt things.It's really glorious future we live in, but okay, you can do that one-on-one. But we're actually slurping these up for the entire team into blob storage and. Running agent loops over them every day to figure out where as a team can we do better and how do we reflect that back into the repositories?Yes, though everybody benefits from everybody else's behavior for free. Same for like PR comments, right? These are all feedback. That means the code as written, deviated from what was good, a PR comment, a failed build. These are all signals that mean at some point the agent was missing context. We gotta figure out how toswyx: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: Slurp it up and put it back in the reboot.swyx: By the way, I do this exactly right. I used to, when I use cloud code for [00:42:00] knowledge work, cloud cowork is like a nice product, right? Yes. In I think you would agree. I always have it tell me what do I do better next time? And that's the meta programming reflection thing.So I almost think like you have six reflection extraction levels in symphony and almost like the zero of layer. So the six levels are PO policy, configuration, coordination, execution, integration, observability. We've talked about a couple of these, but the zero layer is like the, okay, are we working well?Can we improve how we work? Yes. Can I modify my own workflow without MD or something? I don't know.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course you can. Like this thing is also able to cut its own tickets ‘cause we give it full access.Yeah. Make it a ticket to have it cut. Tickets you can.Put in the ticket that you expect it to file as on follow up work,swyx: like Yeah. Self-modifying. Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah.[00:42:44] Tool Access and CLI FirstRyan Lopopolo: Put, don't put the agent in a box. Give the agent full accessibility over it. Domain.swyx: I had a mental reaction when you said don't put the agent in a box. So I think you should put it in a box. Like it's just that you're giving the box everything it needs.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. Context and tools.swyx: But we're like, as developers, we're used to calling [00:43:00] out to different systems, but here you use the open source things like the Prometheus, whatever, and you run it locally so that you can have the full loop. I assume.Ryan Lopopolo: Yep.Vibhu: I think likeRyan Lopopolo: another, you wanna minimize cloud, cloud dependencies.Vibhu: You also want to make sure that you think about what the agent has access to. What does it see? Does it go back into the loop, like from the most basic sense of you let it see its own like calls, traces it can determine where it went wrong. But are you feeding that back in? So you know, just the most basic level of you wanna see exactly what's input output, like does the agent have access to.What is being outputted, right? It can self-improve a lot of these things. It's allRyan Lopopolo: text, right? My job is to figure out ways to funnel text from one agent to the other.swyx: It's so strange like way back at the start of this whole AI wave Andre was like, English is the hottest day programming language.It's here, it's just Yeah. The feature as well.Vibhu: A lot of, okay. Like a lot of software, a lot of stuff. There's a gui, it's made for the human. We're seeing the evolution of CLI for everything, right? All tools have CLIs. Your agents can use [00:44:00] them well, do we get good vision? Do we get good little sandboxes?Like right now? It's a really effective way, right? Models love to use tools. They love the best. They love to read through text. So slap a CLI let it go loose. That works for everything.Ryan Lopopolo: It does. Yeah. Yeah.[00:44:14] UI Perception and RasterizingRyan Lopopolo: We've also been adapting nont, textual things to that shape in order to improve model behavior in some ways, right?We want the agent to be able to see the UI agents do not perceive visually in the same way that we do. They don't see a red box, they see red box button, right? They see these things in latent space. So if we want, Hey, yeah, I do. We haveswyx: a ding if that goes off every time. Alien spaceRyan Lopopolo: ding.Anyway if we wanna actually make it see the layout, it's almost easier to rasterize that image to ask EOR and feed it in to the agent. Ha. And there's no reason you can't do both, right? To like further refine how the model perceives the object it's [00:45:00] manipulating.swyx: Cool. Could we, you wanna talk about a couple more of these layers that might bear more introspection or that you have personal passion for?[00:45:07] Coordination Layer with ElixirRyan Lopopolo: I will say that the coordination layer here was a really tricky piece to get right.swyx: Let's do it. Yep. I'm all about that. And this is Temporal core.Ryan Lopopolo: This is where when we turn the spec into Elixir, where like the model takes a shortcut, right? Like it's oh, I have all these primitives that I can make use of in this lovely runtime that has native process supervision.Which is I think, a neat way to have taken the spec and made it more choices achievable by making choices that naturally mapswyx: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: To the domain, right? In the same way that like you would prefer to have a TypeScript model repo if you are doing full stack web development, right? Because the ability to share types across the front end and backend reduces a lot of complexity.And becauseswyx: that's what graph kill used to be.Ryan Lopopolo: That's right. Andswyx: I don't know if it's still alive, butRyan Lopopolo: [00:46:00] no humans in the loop here. So like my own personal ability to write or not write elixir. Doesn't really have to bias us away from using the right tool for the job. It is just wild.swyx: Love it. I love it.Yeah. I wonder if any languages struggle more than others because of this? I feel like everyone has their own abstractions. That would make sense. But maybe it might be slower, it might be more faulty where like you'd have to just kick the server every now and then. I, I don't know. I think observability layer is really well understood.Integration layer, CP is dead. I think all these just like a really interesting hierarchy to travel up and down. It's common language for people working on the system to understandRyan Lopopolo: The policy stuff is really cool, right? Yeah. You don't really have to build a bunch of code to make sure the system wait for the, to passswyx: it's institutional knowledge.Ryan Lopopolo: Yeah. You just give it the G-H-C-L-I with some text that say CI has to pass. It makes the maintenance of these systems a lot easier.[00:46:57] Agent Friendly CLI Outputswyx: Do you think that CLI maintainers need to be [00:47:00] do anything special for agents or just as is? It's good because like I don't think when people made the G GitHub, CLI, they anticipated this happening.Ryan Lopopolo: That's correct. The GH CLI is fantastic. It's great super industry.swyx: Everyone go try GH repo create GH pull and then pull request number, right? GH HPR, like 1 53, whatever. And then it like pullsRyan Lopopolo: basically my only interaction with the GitHub web UI at this point is GH PR view dash web.Exactly. Glanceswyx: at the diffRyan Lopopolo: and be like Sure thing. Send it. Yeah. But the CLI are nice ‘cause they're super token efficient and they can be made more token efficient really easily. Like I'm sure you all have seen like I go to build Kite or Jenkins and I could just get this massive wall of build output.And in order to unblock the humans, your developer productivity team is almost certainly gonna write some code that parses the actual exception out of the build logs and sticks it in a sticky note at the top of the page. And you basically [00:48:00] want CLI to be structured in a similar way, right? You're gonna want to patch dash silent to prettier because the agent doesn't care that every file was already formatted.Just wants to know it's either formatted or not. So it can then go run a right command. Similarly, like in our PNPM distributed script runner, when we had one, when you do dash recursive, like it produces a absolute mountain of text. But all of that is for passing. Test suites. So we ended up wrapping all of this in another scriptswyx: to suppress the,Ryan Lopopolo: which you can vibe the channel only output the failing parts of the tests.swyx: You make a pipe errors versus the standard, standard out. I don't know. Okay. Whatever. Too much thinking have to do that. The CII used to maintain SCLI for my company and yeah, this is like core, very core to my heart. But you're vibing my job.Ryan Lopopolo: That's right.swyx: Cool. Any other things?This is a long spec. [00:49:00] I appreciate that. It's got a lot of strong opinions in here. Any other things that we should highlight? I think obviously you can spend the whole day going through some of these, but I do think that some of these have a lot of care or some of this you might wanna tell people, Hey, take this, but, make it your own.[00:49:15] Blueprint Spec and GuardrailsRyan Lopopolo: Fundamentally, software is made more flexible when it's able to adapt to the environment in which it is deployed, which means that things like linear or GitHub even are specified within the spec, but not required pieces of it. There's like a more platonic ideal of the thing that you could swap in like Jira or Bitbucket, for example.But being able to tightly specify things like the ID formats or how the Ralph Loop works for the individual agents. Basically means you can get up and running with a fully specified system quickly that you then evolve later on. I think we never intended for this to be a static spec that you can [00:50:00] never change.It's more like a blueprint to get something worth a starting point up and running.swyx: Yeah.Ryan Lopopolo: For you then to vibe later to your heart's content,swyx: you have like code and scripts in here where it's oh, I think this is a really good prompt. It's just a very long prompt.Ryan Lopopolo: Fundamentally, the agents are good at following instructions, so give them instructions.And it will, improve the reliability of the result. We, much like the way we use Symphony, we don't want folks to have to monitor the agent as it is vibing the system into existence. So being very opinionatedVery strict around what these success criteria are means that our deployment success rate goes up. Yeah. It means we don't have to get tickets on this thing.Vibhu: Think it all goes back to that like code to disposable, right? Like early on when you had CLI or you'd kick off a Codex run, it would take two hours. You would wanna monitor okay, I'm in the workflow of just using one.I don't want it to go down the wrong path. I'll cut it off and, just shoot off four, like that was my favorite thing of the Codex app, right? Yeah. Just Forex it like, [00:51:00] it's okay. One of them will probably be right, one of them might be better. Stop overthinking it. Like my first example was probably like deep research.When you put out deep research and I'd ask it something like, I asked it something about LLM, it thought it was legal something and spent an hour, came back with a report completely off the rails. And I was like, okay, I gotta monitor this thing a bit. No don't monitor it. Just you want to build it so it's that it, it goes the right way.And you don't wanna, you don't wanna sit there and babysit, right? You don't want to babysit your agentsRyan Lopopolo: with that deep research query that you made. Looking at the bad result, you probably figured out you needed to tweak your prompt Yeah. A bit, right? That's that guardrail that you fed back into the code base for the task, your prompt to further align the agent's execution.Same sort of concept supply there too.swyx: When you talk, how are the customers feelingRyan Lopopolo: for Symphony? I think we have none, right? This is a thing we have put out into theswyx: world. Symphony's internal, right? As long as you are happy, you are the customer. That'

Claude Cowork came out of an accident.Felix and the Anthropic team noticed something interesting with Claude Code: many users were using it primarily for all kinds of messy knowledge work instead of coding. Even technical builders would use it for lots of non-technical work.Even more shocking, Claude cowork wrote itself. With a team of humans simply orchestrating multiple claude code instances, the tool was ready after a brief week and a half.This isn't Felix's first rodeo with impactful and playful desktop apps. He's helped ship the Slack desktop app and is a core maintainer of Electron the open-source software framework used for building cross-platform desktop applications, even putting Windows 95 into an Electron app that runs on macOS, Windows, and Linux.In this episode, Felix joins us to unpack why execution has suddenly become cheap enough that teams can “just build all the candidates” and why the real frontier in AI products is no longer better chat, but trusted task execution.He also shares why Anthropic is betting on local-first agent workflows, why skills may matter more than most people realize, and how the hardest questions ahead are about autonomy, safety, portability, and the changing shape of knowledge work itself.We discuss* Felix's path: Slack desktop app, Electron, Windows 95 in JavaScript, and now building Claude Cowork at Anthropic* What Claude Cowork actually is: a more user-friendly, VM-based version of Claude Code designed to bring agentic workflows to non-terminal-native users* Why “user-friendly” does not mean “less powerful”: Cowork as a superset product, much like how VS Code initially looked simpler than Visual Studio but became more hackable and extensible* Anthropic's prototype-first culture: why Cowork was built in 10 days using many pre-existing internal pieces, and how internal prototypes shaped the final product* Why execution is getting cheap: the shift from long memos, specs, and debate toward rapidly building multiple candidates and choosing based on reality instead of theory* The local debate: why Felix thinks Silicon Valley is undervaluing the local computer, and why putting Claude “where you work” is often more powerful* Why Claude gets its own computer: the VM as both a safety boundary and a capability unlock, letting Claude install tools, run scripts, and work more independently without constant approval* Safety through sandboxing: why “approve every command” is not a real long-term UX, and how virtual machines create a middle ground between uselessly safe and dangerously autonomous* How Cowork differs from Claude Code: coding evals vs. knowledge-work evals, different system-prompt tradeoffs, longer planning horizons, and heavier use of planning and clarification tools* Why skills matter: simple markdown-based instructions as a lightweight abstraction layer for reusable workflows, personalized automation, and portable agent behavior* Skills vs. MCPs: why Felix is increasingly interested in file-based, text-native interfaces that tell the model what to do, rather than forcing everything through rigid tool schemas* The portability problem: why personal skills should move across agent products, and the unresolved tension between public reusable workflows and private user-specific context* Real use cases already happening today: uploading videos, organizing files, handling taxes, managing calendars, debugging internal crashes, analyzing finances, and automating repetitive browser workflows* Why AI products should work with your existing stack: Anthropic's bias toward integrating with Chrome, Office, and existing workflows instead of rebuilding every app from scratch* Computer use one year later: how much better it has gotten, why vision plus browser context is such a superpower, and why letting Claude see the thing it is working on changes everything* Why many “AI verticals” may get compressed: specialized wrappers may matter in the short term, but better general models and stronger primitives could absorb a lot of narrow use cases* The future of junior work: Felix's concerns about entry-level roles, labor-market disruption, and whether AI can compress early-career learning into denser simulated experience* Why Waterloo grads stand out: internships, shipping experience, and learning how real teams build products versus purely theoretical academic preparation* The agentic future of the desktop: what it means for Claude to have its own computer, whether AI should act on your machine or a remote one, and how intimacy with personal data changes the product design space* Why Electron still mattered: shipping Chromium as a controlled rendering stack, the limits of OS-native webviews, and why browser engines remain one of the great software abstractions* Anthropic's Labs mentality: wild internal experiments, half-broken future-looking prototypes, and the broader effort to move users from asking questions to delegating increasingly long and valuable tasks* Why the endgame is not just more capability, but more independence: teaching users to trust AI with bigger scopes of work, for longer durations, with fewer interventionsFelix Rieseberg* X: https://x.com/felixrieseberg* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/felixrieseberg* Website: https://felixrieseberg.com/Anthropic* Website: http://anthropic.comFull Video PodTimestamps00:00 — Cheap execution and building all the candidates00:44 — Intro in the new Kernel studio02:47 — What Claude Cowork is04:18 — Why user-friendly can be more powerful05:33 — How Anthropic built Cowork07:09 — Prototype-first product development08:00 — Why local computers still matter09:20 — Skills, primitives, and platform leverage12:13 — Cowork's architecture: VM + Chrome + system prompt15:38 — Felix's own bug-fixing Cowork workflows17:38 — Local-first agents20:16 — Evals, planning, and knowledge-work optimization23:14 — What Anthropic means by evals24:21 — Scaffolding, tools, and why skills matter27:44 — Demo: YouTube uploads and self-generated skills31:03 — Calendar automation and cleaning your desktop34:47 — Browser context and why DOM access matters37:47 — Skills portability and plugins44:36 — Which AI categories survive?46:19 — Junior jobs, simulated work, and labor disruption52:00 — Gradual takeoff vs big-bang takeoff53:42 — Finance, taxes, and enterprise verticals56:24 — Vision and the improvement in computer use57:31 — Why Claude writes its own scripts58:06 — Should Claude have its own computer?1:01:26 — Windows 95 in JavaScript1:03:19 — VM tradeoffs and sandbox design1:07:23 — Approval fatigue and safe delegation1:11:18 — The future of Cowork1:12:27 — What comes next for agentic knowledge work1:15:13 — Electron, Chromium, and desktop software lessons1:22:16 — Multiplayer agents and coworker-to-coworker workflows1:26:05 — Anthropic Labs and closing thoughtsTranscriptAlessio: Hey everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space Podcast, our first one in the new studio. This is Alessio, founder of Kernel Labs, and I'm joined by swyx, editor of Latent Space.swyx: Yeah, so nice to be here. Thanks to, uh, TJ, Alessio, Allen helping to set everything up. It looks beautiful. We even have the logo outside.Yeah, kind.Felix: It's like really nice, right? When you walk in here as a guest, you're like, ah, this is a serious production. You're like, feel it immediately.swyx: Yeah. Felix, you've been, you're, you're currently a product manager of Cowork or,Felix: uh, really Technicswyx: Eng. Yeah. The, the identities are kind of vague member technical staff.Felix: I know member staff is like, the official title will carry around forever.swyx: Yeah. I basically kind of wanted, like we've been. Kinda obsessed. I, I've been using it a lot, even for managing latent space. Like, uh, cowork helps me upload videos and like title things and like edit and everything. It's, it's like really amazing.Alessio: Cool. He said multiple times Cowork has said gi in the group track.swyx: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so we have a second, uh, we have a second channel, uh, for latent space tv. Uh, and I, uh, and uh, we basically, this is our Discord meetup. Um, and I I, we have like Claude Coworks, it might be a GI, I don't know if we, we have, uh, uploaded it yet, but one of the sessions was like a, like a Claude cowork thing.Felix: I, you have to see, I would love to see it. Like, I'm so curious, like one of the most fun parts of my job is like constantly see the weird things people use Cowork for because it's obviously like very hard for us to actually design for specific use cases we do. But like every single person who's like most amazed is usually amazed about a thing that I didn't even expect cowork would be good at.Um, we have a new designer and it's one of the first small tasks. I was like, Hey, we need like a new emoji for cowork for our internal stock. It's like a pretty small thing. I like, can you please do it? And he drew an SVG and just gave it to coworker was like, can you animate this emoji? And now it has like this beautiful loopy animation.Um, and I mean, I think obviously this goes down to like, it turns out you can do more things with code than you expected, but it, it's like that kind of stuff that is really fun to me. So, long story short, I would love to see like, the kind of things you're doing.swyx: I'll pull it up. I'll pull it up.Felix: Yeah. Yeah.swyx: Uh, but before we get into it, I, I think always wanna start with like a top level. What is Claude Cowork for people who haven't heard of it? Haven't tried it out.Felix: Okay. Uh, real quick, Claude Cowork is a user friendly version of Claude Code. So the way it basically works is we have Claude Code and for us, fairly impressive agent harness that over December we noticed more and more people are using either, even though they're not technical, they, they're not at home in the terminal or they are at home in the terminal, but they started using Claude Code for non-coding workloads, right?Like managing expenses or like filling out receipts or organizing a knowledge base. Like there was a big obsidian moment that a lot of people liked and we wanted to capitalize on that, but also bring, bring this capability to people who are not terminal native and who might not know how to like brew and store something.So cowork is Claude Code running in original machine with a little bit of padding, a little bit more guardrails, making it a little safer and a little bit more convenient for people who don't wanna first open up the terminal when they go to work.swyx: It's interesting, uh, that is kind of. Pitch that way as a more user friendly thing because I always feel like it, it, to me, I I treat it as like why I'm familiar with Claude Code.Like we, we did a Claude Code episode Yeah. A year ago. But this one is like even more power user tools ‘cause it, uh, it kind of integrates much better with like clotting Chrome and, uh, in all the, all the other tooling. But like, maybe, maybe that's like a perception thing, right? LikeFelix: No, honestly, I don't think you're wrong.This is like a, a thing I've been thinking a lot about for like the last two weeks. So,swyx: but when they say user friendly, it's like, oh, it's the dumb down version. But no, actually this is the superset.Felix: Yeah. Like, I think a similar thing happened, A similar thing happened to me about 10 years ago, like maybe 12 years ago when I was at Microsoft and we started working on, on Electron and like browser-based technologies and cross-platform stuff.And one of the first use cases was Visual Studio Code, which used to be a website. And the initial narrative was, or Visual Studio Code is, is like a more user-friendly version of Visual Studio. But in a similar vein, I think there was some voices saying, oh, this is. For serious developers, like, we're not gonna use this.Right? For like anything. And I think in the end what happened is people have different stories about why Visual Studio Code became such a big thing. But my personal, my personal belief is that the Hackability and the extendability has like played a pretty big role, right? You can hook in Visual Studio Code that like almost any workload, it's so easy to hack on, so easy to put extensions for it.And I think cowork might be hitting a similar thing where it's very easy to extend and it's very easy to bring into your workflows. Uh, so the convenience I think is a bit of a, it's obviously the thing we strive for as developers, but I think the way people find value in it then is by probably mapping it onto whatever they actually have to do in their job.Alessio: So end of last year, you see the spike of like non-technical usage and clock code. What's the design process to say we should make clock code work? Because I mean, you built it in only 10 days. Um, I'm sure there was some discussion before on whether it's easier to use mean. You know, like making, making like a desktop GUI is obviously one way to do it, but like there's a lot of nuance in the product.Like maybe talk people through what was like the trigger of like, we should build a separate thing. We should not build like a different plot code thing. And then maybe some of the more interesting design decisions that maybe you didn't take.Felix: Yeah, I think philanthropic, we've been thinking about ways to move people who are comfortable with using Claude to answer questions and bring more of the power of like this thing to now like, execute tasks for you.I can like solve problems for you can like build things for you. How do we bring that capability to people who are currently mostly comfortable with like a like question answer paradigm within the chat. And we've had a lot of prototypes around that. Just going back as far as like easily a year and a half.Like we had a lot of people working on that. Um, and internally philanthropic is a very prototype demo, first culture. We have a lot of like internal prototypes that don't reach the public. What Cowork actually became is like we sort of picked the right pieces out of the many prototypes that we had.Right. And that's, that's maybe also like, I think an important qualifier whenever people mention this like 10 day number. I do think it's important to me to mention that within Double Scratch there was like a lot of stuff already happening, right? Like, and I think it's important for people to remember that when you build a website, you use React, you use like a bunch of other things.And this is like a similar scenario with like a lot of pieces we already had. Um, and in terms of decision path, I think we live in like an interesting new world where execution is actually quite cheap.swyx: Mm-hmm.Felix: So maybe, maybe what you would do That's so crazy. The year. I know it's wild.swyx: You should be, ideas are cheap.Execution is the hard part. IFelix: know. And like the, we, we used to live in this world maybe where you would take a product manager and the product manager would go to a number of potential customers and in this like very low bandwidth way, would try to. Try to like tease out what are the problems they're having, what are they willing to buy?Um, and then maybe what can you build to like drive out that need and then you go back and you like draft a spec and you think about it and then like you make a design and you execute it. We internally philanthropic app, not pretty much closer to the point where we're like, don't even write a memo, just like build, like let's build all the candidates very quickly.Let's just build all of them and then pick the best ones. I think the, the decision that is most impactful both for the product as well for the users right now is like the way we put value on your local computer. I think that's a big decision point a lot of people have thought about. Should this thing, whatever it is, should it ultimately run into computer or should it run in the cloud?‘cause they're big trade offs, right?Alessio: I guess like if we solve auth, it would be easy to do in the cloud. But I think like the fact that I can just download any file from anywhere and then put it and cowork there, it's like a big unlock. Um, I mean it's interesting you mentioned reusing certain pieces. I think this is something I've been thinking about even with Claude Code, right?The price of like writing code is going to zero, blah, blah, blah. But it actually seems like the value of having some sort of platform substrate is like increasing because as you build these new things, you can kind of plug them together.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: So I almost feel like when people are saying, oh, the value of a lot of software is gonna zero because you can recreate it, to me it's almost like the opposite.It's like having an existing platform to build on top of. It's like even more valuable because you can kind of bolt things on.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: You have obviously mcps, you have skills, you have like obviously the models, which is a big part. All these things kind of come together. Do you feel like that's a valid way to think about it, where people should invest even more in kind of like primitives.To rebuild on or are you like recreating a lot of it each time because like things change and it's easier to rewrite than reuse?Felix: You know, I think, I think you're right. I think you're right that the holistic platform is really useful. And this is maybe a whole like a somewhat contrarian view to a lot of people in ai.I actually don't think that the future is going to be hyper personalized software down to the point where everyone is running their own version. Like, I actually think it's going to be quite hard for all of us to have our own internal chat tool and like, if I wanna talk to you, likeswyx: howFelix: is that gonna work, right?In the, in the context of cowork and how we build it, I think it's a bit of a combination. Like what the, the execution that gets cheap is not necessarily rebuilding all the primitives. I think our priori, there's also not a lot of value in it. So for instance, my team did not think about rebuilding clock code.We're like very much started with the. The core thesis of this should be Claude Code.Mm-hmm.Felix: And then we'll like build things on top of it. The part of the execution that gets a little cheaper is like, how do you take all of these Lego pieces and put them together in a way that makes sense for users?It's like actually valuable. You have so many different approaches now in terms of what kind of, what kind of things do you actually elevate to a primitive, do you strongly believe that all your products should be built by just combining primitive that the public also has available? Do you keep some things internal?Um, and I think that's still evolving, but I think what's probably gonna go away is like, I'm not sure if it's gonna fully go away, but I'm gonna say, I think for me personally, I will probably no longer try to come up with a really good product without testing up with people. This is not a new concept, but wherever you used to have to make costly decisions around, do we pick technology A or technology B, or do we like, um, build it this way, build it the other way.I really strongly believe now you just build all of them and try them out with a small focus group and then whatever, whatever is better is what you go with. Right. And that, that is probably quite different even from how we maybe worked a year ago. Right. Like, I think, I think this happened very recently.Alessio: Yeah. I started building something in on Electron since you're here. Coincidence. Uh, but then Electron and like SQL Light are like, there's like some issues that like between development and like, uh, building anyway. And I was like, let's just rebuild the whole thing in Swift and just recreated the whole thing in Swift.And it's like, I. It's done.swyx: You know, I didn't take any effort. I, I, I don't even know Swift.Alessio: Yeah, exactly. I was like, I'm the, I'm not reviewing it anyway, whatever. You can write in whatever language you pick, but the important stuff that I did was not write the electron bindings. Yeah. It was like the logic of what happens in the app, you know, and then the model is like, yeah, I can just recreate the same thing as withswyx: Yeah.I, I think you still want, especially for people who are doing like high performance software or like very complex software, uh, you still want like, some view of the architecture. Uh, but you can use markdown for that,Felix: right? Yeah.swyx: Uh, you don't actually have to read the code again. I, I'm still like on a sort of like a definitional thing.Um, can we build a good mental model of Claude Cowork? Um, this is what I have, right? Like you you said it's like fundamentally cloud co. We don't wanna touch it. There's the cloud app, there's clouding Chrome. I think you guys do something different in planning, but, uh, I've been talking with Tariq who is on the cloud co team, and you guys are, he's like, no, we just exposed planning.Maybe we can clarify like, what are the major pieces. That people should be aware. It goes into cowork, like,Felix: okay, I think you basically have them. So really, um, you can, you can take planning more or less out. I think there's a few things that are really valuable in cowork. Um, the virtual machine is probably the most powerful thing.So we currently run like a, we currently run like a lightweight VM and we put clocked out into the vm and we do that for, for, um, a number of reasons. Safety and security is a big one, but even if you, even if you ignore for a second safety and security and you're just like, okay, Yolo, I want this thing to do whatever.It is quite powerful to give Claus on computer that is like generally a good idea. And in terms of architecture and UX and everything else that we've been working on, philanthropic, it often is quite useful for you to like anthropomorphize, um, clot aggressively and just be like, this is a person. What will you do if you give a, if you had a person, right?Yeah. And the analogy I've given my dad this morning who is still like quite insistent on using chat even for like coding things, is if you were a developer and your employer told you that you don't need a computer, they're just gonna like, send you emails with a code and you send emails with code back like that, maybe work for Patrick Miles in the back, but that it's not very effective.Um, so what we can do with the VM is because it's a, it's a Linux system, Claude Code has more or less free reign to install whatever needs to install. It can install Python, it can install no js. We do have strict network ingress and egress controls. So you can still, as, as a user in like plain human language, make it clear to, to the entire system what you're okay with and what you're not okay with.But at no point do we have to ask a real person, like a, like a person who might be in marketing or a lawyer. I'd have to go to a lawyer and be like, are you okay with me installing Homebrew?Alessio: Yeah, yeah.Felix: Right. Because the implications of the question and the answer are complex and nuanced and like, not, not easy to reason about.This gives us a lot of distraction that makes Cloud very powerful. Now then around it, we, we do probably have a number of things that also keeps growing almost every single week that you're probably noticing that make cowork maybe better for certain tasks than just cloud. Cloud on its own. Yeah. But most of those actually live in the system prompt.They're about like, what can we infer about the work that you do? What can we, what can we intru in the system prompt to make that more effective? It's of course the like very tight integration with Cloud and Chrome. You're noticing that a lot of people, especially as the models get better, a lot of people throw up their hands when it comes to MCP connectors in this area.I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go through like 25 M CCP connectors, click off everywhere and then like half of them don't let me do the things anyway. So Cloud and Chrome is quite powerful because we can just talk to the cloud and Chrome sub agent and that will just do things for you.swyx: Yeah, so, so one example right in MCPI, honestly, I think that the state of MCP is kind of, kind of.Really hard to integrate. Um, I need to, I needed to add, uh, Figma MCP to the coding agent that I use.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Uh, and, but I didn't wanna read the docs, so I just had caught to it. And it's, it's great at reading docs and the same, same way I had to set up like a Google Cloud, um, account for some project I was working on and get some API keys somewhere.And Google Cloud is famously super hard to navigate, so I just didn't wanna deal with any of it. I just used Claude CoworkFelix: within the first week of developing on Core. This happened very, very quickly. Um, I caught myself by starting to use cowork for coding tasks, which is not ostensibly what we built it for, right?We don't need to. But I found myself, um, I found myself like on our internal, internal tool that we have for, to collect crashes and just like debugging information and I found myself sort like picking out the ones that I think we can easily fix versus the ones that might be like kernel corruption or something else on the operating system.And I found myself sort of picking these out and then just telling Clark, go fix this bug. I was like, what am I doing here? Go one level up, tell a cowork, I want you to go to all these crash tools. I want you to find all the bugs that you think are fixable and not like an operating system crash. And then I want you to tell another cloud to like fix all of that.Um, and that's, that's, that's sort of another cloud,swyx: just so it can spin up another instance or,Felix: uh, it, currently what I do is, um, and this is a bit of a hack, but I tell it to use clockwork remote to which website itself? Yeah, that's interesting. So you basically take, if you, if you imagine like a dashboard with like 20 bucks, you, this is remote control or clock or remote, or, sorry, I just wanted to confirm what, the way I'm using it is.I have cowork running and I'm telling cowork, here's where I normally go every morning to find the latest bugs. Go read the entire bug list, separate out which ones are fixable, which ones are, are fixable, and then for the fixable ones, four is this almost loop. For each bug, write a markdown file with a prompt.And then for each markdown v, that is a prompt. Start of a cloud set. So natively Claude Code hasswyx: this concept of subagents. Mm-hmm. And this is basically a subagent, but you're not using the subagent functionality.Felix: I'm not using the subagent functionality. And the reason I'm not is because I'm firing that off as a Claude Code remoteswyx: task.Felix: Yes. That's kind of nice. ‘cause then I can just fire it off. I can go to my next meeting and in Claude Code remote. Now the work is happening.swyx: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You, you see like you're already starting to use the cloud over your local machine. And I think this is one of those things where like. Shouldn't just everything just be cloud first, right?Felix: Ah, this is such a good group. I'm like solely bad about this. I have so many thoughts about that. Okay. So I generally believe that Silicon Valley overall is undervaluing the local computer. And my default argument for that is always how come we're all using MacBooks and not like an iPad or a Chromebook?Um, that there is like still value in, in having a local machine. And now when I think about Clot, it's this entity that is supposed to be very useful to you, like it tremendously useful to you. I think that entity needs to have access to all the same tools you have access to. Otherwise it's gonna be hamstrung in like all these complex ways.And there's, there's sort of two approaches we could take. We could say, okay, we're gonna like one by one chip away at everything that is at your computer and move it into the cloud. That's, that's one way to do it. Um, and I think other products have taken that path. I personally, this is a very personal opinion, but I personally, for the amount of tools that I use.Just don't have the patience to give another tool like permissions to every single thing and keep those permissions up to date. The second thing that I'm still grappling with, and I don't have a good answer for anyone just yet, but the second thing I'm still grappling with is what does it look like for someone to slurp up your entire work and put that in the cloud?Like if I, just as an example, like if you could click a button and it just clone your entire computer into the cloud, is that something that you would want? I'm not totally convinced yet that all everyone will. Mm-hmm. And that is sort of like upstream of all the technical issues we're gonna have. ‘cause like in general, I think the world is not ready for this kind of stuff.Like, I'll give you one quick example that would probably be very easy for us. So as a desktop app, we in theory with your permission, can do a lot of things on your computer, including reading your Chrome cookies. If we really want to do right, we could take your Chrome cookies, you would have to decrypt them for us.We could put those on the cloud if we really felt like it. Pretty easy solution. That would be super cool. We could just be like, oh, we can do all your tasks in the cloud now. Um, a lot of websites, thanks, include it. If, if they see the same authentication from like two different locations, we'll just lock down your account and now you have to go to the branch and be like, okay, I, I'm here with my passport.You actually know that. Wow. Yeah. As tired as well are of the term agent for the age agent future, I think there's a lot of stuff that sort of slowly needs to catch up and until that's the case, the way I, as someone's working on clock and make Cloud most effective is to like put it where you are working.swyx: Anything else? I thought with our mental model, so like, basically like, uh, part of me also just want, like the more I understand how it works, the more I can use it to its full potential. Right?Felix: Yeah.swyx: And so what I'm get hearing from you is you told me to delete the planning thing. You're not doing anything special on, on the, that's only exclusive to Qua cowork.Felix: We have some tricks for this sort of like change week over week. We eval cowork maybe against different use cases than he would evil clock code, right? If you think about it this way. Okay, so like clock code is our eval clock cowork. Yeah. So clock code is like quite optimized for coding tasks and we mostly value it whether or not we're getting better or worse depending on how good it is at like a typical suite job.And Clark Cowork on the other hand, we evaluate more against typical knowledge work, the kind of stuff he would find in finance or in like maybe a, like in like a legal office. Um, my personal use case is always like managing my things, like managing my personal mortgage or something like that, right? Or like wealth planning for me and my family.Those are the kinds of use cases we eval, clock cowork on. And what you might be picking up on is like the subtle changes we make to the system. Prompt what we put in the system, prompt how we steer, clot with the tools we give it. Um, like either it'd be better in one or the other direction and whether there's a trade off, try us exist a lot.CLO code will be better of a code and Claude Cowork will be better. For non-coding tasks, will those gaps still exist in the next three generations of models? It's like a little unclear to me though.swyx: Yeah,Felix: because right now these like hyper optimizations we make, I'm not sure for how long they're still be relevant.swyx: I think what I was referring to was also, it, it just, uh, it qualitatively felt different when I probably, it's just all prompting and I'm reading too much into it, but like the, the fact that it comes out with like a nine step plan, I can edit the plan and give feedback and, and, and see it execute the plan.Yeah. It felt more long range than in Claude Code, but maybe that already existed in Claude Code and you just build a nicer UI for it.Felix: It's kind of both. Um, like if the Clark Code people who build the planning functionalities would city, they probably say yes, we have all of those things in Clark code and they do.Um, I think people tend to give cowork. Tasks that are maybe of longer time horizon, I thought isswyx: so long. Yeah.Felix: That's like one thing, right? It's just like that the, the chunk of work tends to be maybe a little bigger. And then the second thing is that because the work, when it gets longer, it gets a little bit more ambiguous.We do tell co-work to make heavy use of the planning tool or to make heavy use of the ask user question tool, right? We do want it to come up with like. Different scenarios of, okay, tease out what the user actually wants. Don't go off to work for like four hours and then come back with the wrong thing.And you're probably picking up on that.swyx: Yeah.Felix: Um, I wish I could tell you I like built this magical thing and it's like, there's some secret sauce,swyx: but No, no, no. I mean, it's, it's just clarity is good that, you know, engineers just want to know. Yeah. They can, they can plan around it. And then I think also for me, um, I am realizing I have to switch to my, my other machine because this is a new machine that doesn't have my session.But, uh, yeah, the, the, the planning is really important for, for me to like approve or like to see whether it's like, it's right. The ask is, the question is so beautifully presented. I mean, it also, it also available in like cursor and, and in Claude Code. But like, I, I think like it's so nice to see that it, like it's kind of for me like to understand that it gets me, it gets what I want to do.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Yeah.Felix: It probably very hardswyx: just on the topical evals. Mm-hmm. When you say eval, I think people are very vague about what it means. Is it just like vibe testing or do you have like automated programmatic evals of Claude Cowork?Felix: When we say eval, uh, what we really mean is that we essentially take the entire transcript, including all the tools that clot has available ultimately to it, and we then measure what are the outputs, depending on what we tweak, right?So we do run that a lot. We use that in training. Um, we use that in, in like, if you sort of separate out post training from like the scaffolding around it. Cowork sort of exists in the scaffolding space, but obviously we also train on it a little bit. Um, so when we say eval, we mean given the certain transcript, what do the outputs look like?Including the file outputs as well as like the actual token outputs, like the ones that you see in the chat window.Alessio: I'm curious, um, how much of the failure modes are the model intelligence versus like the usage of the end tool to put the intelligence in? Like the well planning is like a good example, right?It's like one thing is to come up with a plan. The other thing is like make a nice spreadsheet. Yeah. That kind of runs you through the plan. Like how have you seen that? Well,Felix: the thing that I grapple with a lot is that whatever scaffolding you come up with, I think we still have a bit of sort of like model overhang where the model is dramatically more capable than right.Users end up using it for. And I think part of that is that we're just not getting the model all the tools to do all the things that's theory capable of, right? There's like one thing, um, however, whenever you do build the scaffolding, I'm sort of wondering at what point, at what point will that scaffolding go away and like how much you invest in figuring out what the right scaffolding is.It's kind of up to, it's a little bit of a bet. And one thing that I as an NJ quite enjoy is that like working in philanthropic and working at a frontier lab, I maybe have a little bit more insight into what's coming, coming down the chute in terms of like, what's the next model, what is the model capable of?What is good at, what is it bad at? And I'm, I'm increasingly wondering, is the right thing for us to like really invest too much in sort of these like scaffolding corrections where the model might otherwise not misbehave, but just not do the thing that you want?Alessio: Yeah.Felix: Or is it to just like give it as many capabilities as possible, try to make those safe so there's the worst case scenarios, likeno status might be otherwise.And then just simply wait a second for the next model drop. I'm personally, currently more leaning into the ladder. I think we're gonna see a lot of like applications and companies that do very impressive things with ai that in the short term might seem very effective ‘cause they're very specialized to individual use cases.But I think once models get better generalization and get better at like those specific use cases without being super guided on those, I'm not sure how long that's gonna stick around. And you can kind of, kind of already see this in like skills and NCP servers, right? Mm-hmm. We've, we've already seen sort of this like slow shift from MCP service to skills.And like, maybe a good example is Barry who made skills. He was initially hacking on something that honestly looked a lot, looked, looked a lot like what Cowork does today. It was sort of thinking about what if cowork, but for like people who don't wanna build code. Mm-hmm. And, um, he too did that as a prototype inside the desktop app.One of the first use cases we thought of were, okay, what, what are like coding like use cases that could really benefit from graphical interfaces and like from being a little separated from the actual underlying code. And everyone comes with the same answers. Data analysis,Alessio: right?Felix: Yeah. Or saying how many users do we have today?How many, like, it's always data analysis. And I think the thing that ultimately led to skills is that we wanted to connect this little prototype to our data warehouse and. The team very quickly discovered that like instead of building a custom tool for the thing to talk our data warehouse, they just like meet and embarked on follow like mm-hmm.Dear Claude, if you want to get data, here's the end point. Here's what the API looks like. You'll figure it out.swyx: Ah.Felix: And then it be hand over control. Yeah, yeah. Also just like maybe go one step up in the layer of abstractions, right. Just, yeah. Instead of, instead of telling the thing, here's ACL I, please call the CLI, or here's an MCP.Please call this ECT shape. Just like this is the end point. If you wanna know something, if you post here, maybe you can do post sql. It's gonna be okay. And that ended up being so effective that they started trying the same pattern of like just giving the model a markdown file that describes whatever it needs to do.That the whole thing eventually became skills and we're like. We should package this up. This is a good idea.swyx: Yeah. Um, we've had Barry Mahesh, uh, on, on our conference and uh, he's uh, definitely got a good idea there.Felix: Yeah.swyx: I wanted to show you the, how I've been using Claude Cowork.Felix: Uh, this is was my favorite part.swyx: This is this. So this is like me, uh, this is how we run the Discord. Uh, we literally, uh, at first I didn't trust Cloud Core. This was my very first usage.Felix: Okay.swyx: Right. So then I was like, okay, I will just try to manually download from Zoom all my recordings and upload it to YouTube. Yeah. Because this is a very laborious process.I got a click, click, click YouTube, um, isn't super user friendly. Uh, and it just did it. And then I was like, actually, you know, even the download from Zoom part, I should also. Put into Claude Cowork, and then I did it right. Here's a bunch of, and it starts compacting here, and it, and it, it starts to even be able to do things like look through the individual frames of the video to name the video so I can upload it auto automatically.Oh, that is, and this replaces my job as a YouTuber. We will forever appreciate your creative Yes. You know, and so that's great. Uh, but then by the way, it compacts and makes, makes like a new thing, right? So I, I don't, I don't have the initial, initial thing, but then I asked it to make its own skills so that it, so that something that's repetitive and one-off and human guided becomes more automated and I can use the skills independently and reuse them.Uh, and it obviously you can write skills and that goes into context and skills at the bottom here, which is, which is so nice. Um, so I have all these skills that, that I now sort of do on a weekly basis. Uh, I know you've released scheduled Coworks, which I haven't done yet, butFelix: course I should try them. I, I think this is like so wonderful and fun for me to see because.One thing that is very fun for me about skills in particular is that they're so easy to make. Like anyone can make a skill, like a text message, could be a skill, and they can be so hyper personalized to you. And this is like sort of the subtraction layer, right? Like, um, I, I'm just guessing, but I assume, heck, you are very good at your job.You're probably given this thing some guidance about how to do it, right? I,swyx: I just said, wrap everything up into, into a skill, right?Felix: Yeah.swyx: And then, uh, and then I was like, actually, sometimes I might need to break, uh, things apart because some parts fail or some parts might be needed in individually. So I told it to split one skill into three skills.So it's like a skill splitting thing, and then there's like a parent skill that just orchestrates all of them if I want to use that. You know, like, um, I think that's, that's like really good. Uh, and, and, uh, there's, there's one more part, which is the, uh, Google Chrome thing that I told you about.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Where I'm like, okay, you know, what's better than uploading, using Claude Coworks to YouTube?Like actually. Looking at the docs to like programmatically upload to YouTube and then putting that in a skill. And I've never done that before. I don't want to deal with Google Cloud. Yeah. So Claude Cowork does it for me.Felix: That is really cool.swyx: So, so I, I just, I don't care. I just, like, I do a thing. I don't, it doesn't really matter.Felix: That is really cool. And then you've, I assume paired the skill just with the script that it's built.swyx: Yeah, no, I just update, update the skills.Felix: Oh, that is beautiful. Yeah. That's wonderful.swyx: It's kind of like a skill, like, uh, uh, basically I think like the way that people ease into Claude Cowork is like take a knowledge work task that you would normally be clicking around for and then, uh, try to turn, turn that, and then you do the, okay, well what if you went further?Okay. And then when, if you went further, when, if you, and it sort of expand the scope of cowork as you gain trust with it and, and also teach it how to replace you.Felix: Yeah. It's like a little bit like playing factorial, but for your own life. Uh, like you say, you start really small.swyx: Yeah.Felix: You start automating something really tiny and like.Once it clicks, you keep adding onto this like automation empire. Just like make your life easier and easier. My favorite skill has been, um, every single morning Kohlberg starts looking at my calendar and make sure that there's conflicts because people tend to schedule a lot of meetings, sometimes last minute, sometimes miss it soft and painful.And a lot of products have existed like that A lot. I've written in the custom prompt there. I haven't made it a skill, um, honestly should.swyx: Yeah.Felix: But I've given it like pretty clear instructions about okay, here are some people, if they book over other meetings, I'm probably gonna go to their meeting. Like if Dario schedules a meeting.swyx: Right.Felix: Not try to reschedule down. Right. Um, and I think there's some other rules in there about like what kind of meetings I care more about what kind of meetings I care less about. What is okay to like, maybe pun like when I want to be, when I want to be working, when I don't want to be working. And it's those really small things that I can think kind of click with people.Right. When we launch co-work, I think one of the US races that went most viral on Twitter. X was clean up your desktop, which is stuff, because silly, that's such a smart thing, right? Like you don't need to model to clean up your desktop. Not really. Um,swyx: like this, like clean up my desktop.Felix: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.swyx: I need to, I need to choose my desktop, right? I guess give it access to my desktop.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Okay. Uh, okay. This is very scary. Oh, we'll do it.Alessio: I did, I did it with my downloads folder. It was like, you have so many term sheets and there's like eight copies of your rental lease for your office. I was like, all right.Like, don't yell at me.Felix: It's like, it's not such a small task. And then like, I, I would never go out there and normally otherwise and tell people I've pulled a product. It can organize your folder. Right. Um, because it feels small. But I think to your point like,swyx: oh, here's, here's the, here's the ask user questions.Felix: Yeah.swyx: Uh,Felix: beautiful. Right. Elite obvious junk. You probably shouldn't click that.Alessio: No.Felix: If he's not done right.swyx: As long as it's reversible, I don'tAlessio: make up blend to,swyx: yeah. Uh, yeah. No, I, I have a, I have a typical, everything is super messy folder. So, yes. I think this, this is super helpful. So this is a pretty simple task.Mm-hmm. But I've, okay, here it is. Right. Here's the progress. I don't see this in, that's why I'm like, this gotta be something different than, uh, than Claude Code, because I'm like, weFelix: do. Yeah. That's, we do system prompt that. We're like, all right. We want you to think about like, this task Yeah. Methodology.Yeah.swyx: And then I can, I can, I can do like little suggestions for, for, for these things. It's beautiful. Look at this. I, I can, I can like say like, oh, don't do that. Don't do this. It's amazing.Felix: I'm so happy. You like it. Um, I mean, the other way around, like we're part of the Clark core team, if you would like this in Clark COVID.swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so, so yeah, I mean, uh, this is really good. Obviously I, I'm like kind of raving about it. Uh, you know, I have other things like sign up for pg e so if you can do phone calls for me, that'd be great. Um, I, I do, peopleFelix: have done that. Obviously you can't do that natively, but people have done that with like, various other providers.swyx: Yeah. Uh, and then this is like signing up for the Figma MCP. Um, I, I really am trying to do like everything, um, data analysis as well. I do think, um, oh, design to code, uh, very, very good. Right? So like, here's a Figma file, take it. And then this is where like a lot of other tasks is like knowledge work, like replace my manual clicking, but this is no, I would normally use Claude Code or uh, Claude Code for this, but because I perceive that you have better Chrome integrationFelix: mm-hmm.swyx: I, I think you can actually do a better job of this. And I, this, this is one shot at my, uh, conference website.Felix: That's pretty cool. Like at some point I would love to like, hear how you feel about code. In the desktop apps, which is like I never use, which is the, the same team. Same team.swyx: So I use the call code in terminal, which I, I perceive to be the default way of cloud coding.Felix: So one thing this has,swyx: sorry, I'm just like, I'm notFelix: here, I'm not here. All products. Can I talk about other stuff? Like I, I'm not sure if people out there wanna like hear me advertise my stuff for like an hour. Please do that. Um, this thing is like a builtin browser, which is a thing a lot of products have said.Yeah, it's a builtin browser. And I think giving cloud eyes into like what you're actually working on makes it so much more effective. And that's probably what you've seen in cohort because it can see Chrome, it can like debug the dom, it can like see things. Um, that does make it more powerful.swyx: Yeah. So, so I think, uh, my mental model was kind broken.‘cause I only use this cowork because I thought it had a, a browser thing in it. But I understand that the Claude Code app. The app version of Claude Code does have a built-in browser. I've seen, I've seen this preview thing.Felix: Yeah.swyx: I just, I've never used it.Felix: But in the end, in the end, you sort of have it by hard.Yeah. You basically get the same thing. Right? Like the, the, the additional skill that you're describing is chart is better if we can see what it's working on. Right. That's, that's sort of like the summary here and like whether it's using your Chromeswyx: Yeah.Felix: Or it's just like making up its own little like browser.It doesn't really make a big difference because either way it's gonna see what it's working on and that just makes it much better. And then you don't have to run QA for your cloud.swyx: Why doesn't it pick up my existing Claude Code sessions? ‘cause I, I mean, obviously I've used Claude Code, but Excellent question.Um, don't have a good answer other than like, we're honest. Just haven't Yeah. This is what the Open AI team does. Okay. Uh, cool. I I I don't have other, like, I, I just, I, I do wanna expand people's minds and also maybe show people if they haven't really done it, but like, I, I think it's very interesting how I sometimes use this more than I use, I mean, I use dia, right?Yeah. Um, I, and I use, uh, I've used like all the other agentic browsers and philanthropic didn't have to build an agentic browser because you just had Claude Cowork and that's enough.Felix: Yeah. I also think like maybe integrating with number of excellent browsers out there, it's like currently on my personal priority list, a little higher than like trying to rebuild a browser from scratch.Yeah. You know, never say never, but I think going back to this idea of like, we wanna plug this into an entire existing workflow, I think our goal is actually to not replace any of the applications we have in your computer. But instead of like, work really well within a new workflow,Alessio: make the new one. Yeah.Are, it seems that nowadays, especially on the browser, most of the innovation is like user ergonomics. It's not really like the underlying browser engine. So I feel like to call it, it doesn't really matter if it's like the, uh, or Chrome or Alice, whatever.Felix: Yeah. We wanna, we wanna meet you wherever you are.Which is like, like obviously I would say that, but it's also just generally true because I don't wanna shrink my potential user base artificially by saying, okay, like, I'm gonna start building for the people who are willing to switch browsers.Alessio: Right.Felix: That's such a, like, you know, like many lawsuits have been filed over who gets to review the browser and like a lot of money has switched hands over the question of like, which browser is default and which search engine is default within the browser.Um, I just wanna build for, yeah, I wanna build for swyx essentially. Like, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna build for people who have a number of annoying tasks that they feel like. Maybe clock could do it. Could do it for them.Alessio: Yeah. What do you think about skills portability? I think there's been one thing, I use another thing called zo, which is kinda like a cloud computer plus agent.And I have a skill to add visitors to the office. Yeah. So whenever somebody has to come in after hours, they need to check in downstairs. Um, but I wanna like text the thing, so it doesn't really work in, in cowork, but now that skill is in the zone harness and it's not in my cowork thing. And then if I make a change, it's gotta, I gotta sync them.How do you see that going? Like I see memory as like. Cloud personal, kinda like, I don't necessarily want my memories to be cross thing.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: But I do want my skills to be cross agent that I use. I think with MTPs, people do the same thing. It's like, oh, Mt. P Gateway. Mt P registry. I don't really know if that's like a business.So I'm curious like if you've had any thoughts in the area.Felix: I think for me, this is sort of where I go back to the really basic primitives for our skills are file-based instead of like this complicated thing that exists inside a place somewhere that is like super proprietary. I'm really leaning into the idea of like, it's all just files and vultures, and that makes it very portable on its own.Right. We do have skills as part of this container format, which was just called plugins.Alessio: Mm-hmm.Felix: And plugins are available both for Claude Code and Claude Code work the same format, and you can install plugins. This works in cowork today. You can basically say, I'm gonna add a whole, like just a GitHub repo as a.Skills marketplace or like a plugin marketplace. And that's how we're doing portability. I think we have a lot of room left to grow in. How do we make it easy for people to know that they can write skills? How do we make it easy for them to just like, share a skill with you? Because obviously all the words I just said, right?Like I'm losing most of the knowledge worker base out there, right. And start by saying, oh, you can connect to GitHub repo. It's not exactly how most people will end up working in like a general knowledge worker space. Um, but I think there's something there. And another thing that's there that I think has not really been properly explored is the, the, the combination of which part of the skill is very portable and then which part of the skill is like very personal to you.Right. And I think that's something we haven't really solved as an industry. Hmm.swyx: It's like, which, how you wanna introduce more structure to the skill or have always have like. Public skill, private skill, you know, pair. Yeah, yeah. Kind of. I think there'sFelix: like a, like the easiest way to do this, which is we do like use string interpolation or something.Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Insert username here, insert like phone number, insert, like known folder, locations, that kind of stuff. Um, that's probably clunky. That's why we haven't built it. Um, but I do think someone is going to come up with like an interesting way to keep everything we like about skills. The portability is just a file, it's just marked down.It's just text, honestly. Right. Like a text file words. The complete lack of structure, which means you don't need any kind of tutorial to write a skill. Just like explain it to Claude the way he would explain it to me and Claude will probably get it before I work. Mm-hmm. Right? You're just like, for booking a flight, tell Claude how to book a flight the same way we tell him somewhere.I just started working here today. But combine that with a very like, personal thing. Um, maybe we'll stick with a booking a flight example. I don't actually think. AI should be booking flights. I think the tools we have is yes.swyx: Yeah. Finally, somebody says it. It's the default demo that everyone's making.Felix: I'mswyx: like, I even against like booking demos, it is not a good showcase.Felix: Yeah. I'm like, I just wanna book my flight myself. But, um, I think there's a lot of things that have a personal and a non-personal component and that's maybe why people reach for flight booking because some things are very universal. Yeah. Super flight is usually better, right? Like few people try to book the most expensive flight.And then some things are quite personal about like what times you prefer, which seat you prefer, which airports you prefer. Combining that and like a skill format that is actually portable, compatible, easy to understand for people. I think that would be very exciting. We just haven't figured it out yet.Alessio: Yeah, I think the text part every, I think everybody by now has some sort of like cloud file thing. Either Dropbox, Google Drive, whatever. So it feels like in a way it should basically like sim link. My skills into all my agent harnesses. Yeah. Just keep those ing like we have internally this like valuable tokens repo, which is like all the commands sub agents.It's good. Uh, and then I build like a TUI where you can start it and be like, you know, install this command and this three sub agents into this agent in this folder and just copy paste this. It doesn't do anything. It literally cp the file into that. But I feel like there should be something similar where like whenever I go into a new thing, it's like, hey, here's like the link to exactly the cloud folder and just bring down these skills into this.Yeah. Like today it doesn't quite work like that. Like if I install a new agent, I cannot, I have to like copy paste all the skills and I don't even know where they are.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: That's like the big problem. It's like where do I find them?Felix: Yeah.Alessio: Um, so I'm curious like in the future like that, that almost feels like my personal productivity thing will be my skills.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: Is not really the product that I use. Everybody has access to the same product. But today there's, that just looks like copy pasting ME files, IFelix: think so many things I, I really like thinking about agents and LLMs just as like another coworker. So many attempts have made to build documentation companies that are like, oh, we're gonna solve oil documentation problems.Um, I myself, like spend a little bit of time working in notion, right? I'm like deeply familiar with the concept of let's get everyone on the same page. Mm-hmm. Right? And what you're basically saying here is you want all your agents to be on the same page about your preferences, about the skills, about the way they ought to work and like how they ought to execute.And I'm not sure what the right thing is going to be if it's going to be some, some company that can say, all right, we're as an independent body, we're not trying to like, push into any particular product. It's our job to be like the skill authority, and we provide, I don't know, we're gonna be the Dropbox of skills and we can just sim link us into all the products we want to use.I'm not sure that's gonna be viable business, but as, as an idea, it would be cool.Alessio: Yeah. Yeah. I think so many things are just going away as businesses. It's like, how am I supposed to do it? I'm not even asking somebody to make a product about it. Like yeah. I wanna personally know. And there's things like you said, it's like you almost wanna skill and then interpolate it between personal and work.So if I'm booking a fly for work, it's different than I'm booking a flight personally.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: In some ways, yeah. But like a lot of the scaffolding is the same, you know? Cool.Felix: I mean, as an engineer I will tell you like, you know, technic a person to technic a person. I will just be like siblings.Alessio: Well that's what, that's what I do.We call that MD and agents that MD's just the same how sim length. And so it is like, that works, but it feels like, yeah, I don't know. MaybeFelix: you can always go one, you can always tell cowork problem and then cowork will solve it for you. Just make the siblings. That's like one way to do it.Alessio: That's true.That's true. All right. Everything is called cowork.Felix: Uh, potentially spicy. Question for both of you.swyx: Uh, which of these industries will go away?Alessio: Okay, so what Felix was saying before is interesting. There's busy like. The short term pressure of like, we need to turn these tokens into valuable things, which is I should build the last mile product that harness the model.And then there's the question of like, long term, which ones are gonna still be valuable? And I think you're kind of seeing this today with like, uh, you know, the coding space in a way is kind of like everybody's moving up and up in stack because you need more than just turning tokens into code. I think search, like enterprise search is kind of saying the same thing.Like with G Clean and like all these different companies is like, at the end of the day, if Cowork is the one doing all the work, the search itself is like such a small part that like, I don't know if I'm really gonna pay that much money just to do search. It's almost like everything is like a cowork vertical.So like how much can cowork first party support?swyx: Mm-hmm.Alessio: And how much can it not? I think for a lot of these things, the planning thing that you were showing do Which one? The planning. The planning.swyx: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.Alessio: That's one thing where like most of the value that these agents provide is like they're better at planning for specific tasks.Yeah. And have better tools for it.swyx: Yeah.Alessio: But I think the models are now moving in that direction and they have the right harnesses and they're on your computer. So for me it's almost like if for the end customer trusts your startup to be the provider of that task result, then I think that works. This is, uh, something that, this is a shortswyx: spike that we're, we're working on.Uh, yeah.Felix: I think, look, I'll, I'll, I'll tell you this, like I don't think I'm the best person to like actually estimate which industry is going to be hit the hardest. But I do think that at philanthropic as a group of people, we're deeply worried about the impact. That the tools are going to have on the labor market, especially for like junior employees that, because I think, I think it's only honest to say that when we talk about automating a lot away, a lot of the work that we personally find annoying that we maybe think's not the best use of our time.In a lot of industries, that kind of work would've been given to a junior entry level employee. Yeah. Right. And I think it's, it's only, it's only right to be really worried about that and like worry what that's going to do in particular to people like enter the shop market.Alessio: Mm-hmm. I have a solution for that.Which you make them, you create simulative jobs for them.Felix: Okay.Alessio: So this is, this is like half joke, half true. So if you think about software engineering, when you're like a junior engineer, you work like 1, 2, 3 years. And in those three years there's like maybe like a handful of moments where like you really learn something.And then a bunch of other days where like you're not really progressing.Felix: Yeah.Alessio: I think now we can use AI and these models to actually like shortcut these careers and almost like simulate the early years of your work and like just make them like super dense and like these learnings, it's like, hey, we're working on this feature, which is like a distributed system and you need to learn this thing that might take three months at a company.And so you take three months here, it's like we're just simulating the whole thing. It's actually not a real thing. And in one week we kind of speed run through the whole thing and you kind of learn your lesson from there. And we kind of repeat that in like one year. You basically get like three years worth of like projects and experience.Yeah. I think it's harder for like things like sales or for things like, you know, marketing because you don't really have a way to get the feedback loop. But I think a lot of it, it sounds kind of silly, it's like you're making the new effect job, but it's almost like you go to college, right? People pay to learn how to do it, and this might feel similar where it's like, hey, we have the.Jane Street Simulator is like, you wanna come work at Jane Street? We'll just put you in the simulator for like three months.Felix: Wow.Alessio: And you'll come out of it. It's like, you know, I'm ready.Felix: So there, there is an aspect here. I'm not an expert enough to like actually know what, what is going to happen to marketing or legal or finance, right?Like, I don't work in those jobs and I, I don't think I should talk about them, but I am an engineer and I think I have a pretty good idea of what engineering is like. And I think one thing we're sort of seeing is that as a company and also as, as the public, we're like deeply worried about entry level, but we're also seeing more senior engineers accelerate it.If like they're more productive. They, they actually increase the value they provide. And the thing that I'm thinking about a lot is the fact that even before all of this happened, um, I've always had a lot of respect for the University of Waterloo and the, the new grads that have joined my teams as from coming from the University of Waterloo always felt like.More ready than new grads will like literally spend their entire time at the university regardless of how good, but never actually had to work inside an environment where you have to ship things that eventually will be used by users. And I'm, I'm, I'm German. I like initially went to German University and I think the, the, the like information systems programs, there tend to be very theoretical, right?Like I often give people the example of like trying

From research to real-world results: how the University of Michigan - Economic Growth Institute powers business innovationThe University of Michigan - Economic Growth Institute (EGI) leverages U-M's research, technologies, and expertise to help small and medium-sized businesses innovate and grow, drive regional economic development, and translate applied research into real-world impact. In this episode we talk with Executive Director, Steven Wilson about how EGI provides strategic support, funding, research analysis, and hands-on collaboration with companies and communities to build long-term economic vitality across Michigan and beyond. Steve also talks about how EGI is working with the MEDC and the Office of Defense and Aerospace Innovation and shares his deep Michigan roots. 

In this episode of Private Markets 360°, we welcome Mark Sotir, president of Equity Group Investments, to discuss the firm's flexible investment approach and how its operational expertise drives long-term value creation. Mark shares insights on EGI's strategy for scaling businesses into multi-billion-dollar enterprises, the importance of understanding your audience when seeking investment, and why risk management and strong leadership are crucial for sustainable growth in the dynamic world of private markets. Credits:  Host/Author: Chris Sparenberg and Jocelyn Lewis Guests: Mark Sotir, Equity Group Investments Producer: Georgina Lee Published With Assistance From: Feranmi Adeoshun, Kimberly Olvany www.spglobal.com www.spglobal.com/market-intelligence

¿Hay o no hay una burbuja inmobiliaria? (11/10/25) - EGI 221. El gris importa es un PODCAST de ECONOMÍA de Miguel Ors Villarejo y Javier Díaz-Giménez producido por Pedro Artiles.---subsAyúdanos a hacer El Gris Importa, SUSCRÍBETE: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/sh...---pistasNuestro libro:https://www.amazon.es/EL-GRIS-IMPORTA-MIGUEL-ORS-ebook/dp/B0F3GWR6RC/ref=pd_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0_image?pd_rd_w=X1VUX&content-id=amzn1.sym.5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663%3Aamzn1.symc.ca948091-a64d-450e-86d7-c161ca33337b&pf_rd_p=5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663&pf_rd_r=99DSBY16AP8V1XF73ZFX&pd_rd_wg=g0SXb&pd_rd_r=7df3232d-985e-4180-be6a-2378fcad7a9d&pd_rd_i=B0F3GWR6RC

Las campanas doblan por Milei (28/9/25) - EGI 219. El gris importa es un PODCAST de ECONOMÍA de Miguel Ors Villarejo y Javier Díaz-Giménez producido por Pedro Artiles.---subsAyúdanos a hacer El Gris Importa, SUSCRÍBETE: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/sh...---pistasNuestro libro:https://www.amazon.es/EL-GRIS-IMPORTA-MIGUEL-ORS-ebook/dp/B0F3GWR6RC/ref=pd_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0_image?pd_rd_w=X1VUX&content-id=amzn1.sym.5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663%3Aamzn1.symc.ca948091-a64d-450e-86d7-c161ca33337b&pf_rd_p=5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663&pf_rd_r=99DSBY16AP8V1XF73ZFX&pd_rd_wg=g0SXb&pd_rd_r=7df3232d-985e-4180-be6a-2378fcad7a9d&pd_rd_i=B0F3GWR6RC

De PokerCity Podcast aflevering #80 The Grind is nu te beluisteren. Lars Smeets, Sander van Wesemael en Pieter Salet nemen de pokerweek door. Lars is net terug van The Festival Malta, waar hij was om verslag te doen van de diverse events. Sander van Wesemael was daar ook en won een toernooi. Een week eerder completeerde hij nog de triathlon van Almere, waarmee Sander met steun van de pokercommunity veel geld ophaalde voor het goede doel Kika. En er is natuurlijk weer een quiz, die deze keer gaat tussen Lars en Pieter. Wat kost gokken jou? Stop op tijd 18+In PokerCity Podcast #80 The Grind is Lars Smeets de host en schuiven Sander van Wesemael en Pieter Salet aan voor een uurtje pokerpraat. Er is weer genoeg om over te praten, met The Festival Malta vers achter de kiezen. Lars was er weer bij voor de nodige artikelen en mooie filmpjes op social media. Zo filmde Lars dat Egi Adriaans het The Hendon Mob Championship won. En later tijdens de toernooiserie mocht Egi nog een keer de hoofdrol opeisen, toen hij op hilarische wijze de grootste bounty pakte.Sander van Wesemael was ook bij The Festival, een thuiswedstrijd voor de Nedermaltees. En Van Wesemael, net een triatlon succesvol afgerond, was messcherp. Hij zegevierde in de €350 8-Game voor €6.301 en eindigde als 13e in het €550 Main Event voor €3.990. We blikken met Sander terug op The Festival en ook op zijn triatlon, waarbij Sander een extra dankwoord heeft voor de vele mensen uit de pokerwereld die gedoneerd hebben voor het goede doel Kika.Sander is ook de quizmaster van de week in een strijd tussen Lars en Pieter. Lars zoekt nog naar zijn eerste zege, nadat Mark Roovers hem de vorige keer klopte. Pieter won zijn eerste quiz nipt van Max Broens. Het onderwerp van de quiz: de all-time moneylist leiders van de verschillende vestigingen van Holland Casino. Niet gaan opzoeken, gewoon luisteren en speel de quiz mee!Je kijkersvraag stuur je naar info@pokercity.nl. De inzender van de gekozen vraag krijgt een €4 PCL ticket bij Holland Casino Online.Er is ook weer een luisteraars- en kijkersvraag. Stuur het goede antwoord naar prijsvraag@pokercity.nl. De winnaar ontvangt een €20 HCOPL ticket bij Holland Casino Online.

Arde París (21/9/25) - EGI 218. El gris importa es un PODCAST de ECONOMÍA de Miguel Ors Villarejo y Javier Díaz-Giménez producido por Pedro Artiles.---subsAyúdanos a hacer El Gris Importa, SUSCRÍBETE: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/sh...---pistasNuestro libro:https://www.amazon.es/EL-GRIS-IMPORTA-MIGUEL-ORS-ebook/dp/B0F3GWR6RC/ref=pd_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0_image?pd_rd_w=X1VUX&content-id=amzn1.sym.5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663%3Aamzn1.symc.ca948091-a64d-450e-86d7-c161ca33337b&pf_rd_p=5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663&pf_rd_r=99DSBY16AP8V1XF73ZFX&pd_rd_wg=g0SXb&pd_rd_r=7df3232d-985e-4180-be6a-2378fcad7a9d&pd_rd_i=B0F3GWR6RC

Las consecuencias económicas de la extrema derecha (14/9/25) - EGI 217. El gris importa es un PODCAST de ECONOMÍA de Miguel Ors Villarejo y Javier Díaz-Giménez producido por Pedro Artiles.---subsAyúdanos a hacer El Gris Importa, SUSCRÍBETE: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/sh...---pistasNuestro libro:https://www.amazon.es/EL-GRIS-IMPORTA-MIGUEL-ORS-ebook/dp/B0F3GWR6RC/ref=pd_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0_image?pd_rd_w=X1VUX&content-id=amzn1.sym.5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663%3Aamzn1.symc.ca948091-a64d-450e-86d7-c161ca33337b&pf_rd_p=5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663&pf_rd_r=99DSBY16AP8V1XF73ZFX&pd_rd_wg=g0SXb&pd_rd_r=7df3232d-985e-4180-be6a-2378fcad7a9d&pd_rd_i=B0F3GWR6RC

Comenzamos temporada: Cómo está el patio (7/9/25) - EGI 216. El gris importa es un PODCAST de ECONOMÍA de Miguel Ors Villarejo y Javier Díaz-Giménez producido por Pedro Artiles.---subsAyúdanos a hacer El Gris Importa, SUSCRÍBETE: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/sh...---pistasNuestro libro:https://www.amazon.es/EL-GRIS-IMPORTA-MIGUEL-ORS-ebook/dp/B0F3GWR6RC/ref=pd_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0_image?pd_rd_w=X1VUX&content-id=amzn1.sym.5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663%3Aamzn1.symc.ca948091-a64d-450e-86d7-c161ca33337b&pf_rd_p=5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663&pf_rd_r=99DSBY16AP8V1XF73ZFX&pd_rd_wg=g0SXb&pd_rd_r=7df3232d-985e-4180-be6a-2378fcad7a9d&pd_rd_i=B0F3GWR6RC

La realidad económica de la financiación singular de Cataluña (27/7/25) - EGI 215. El gris importa es un PODCAST de ECONOMÍA de Miguel Ors Villarejo y Javier Díaz-Giménez producido por Pedro Artiles.---subsAyúdanos a hacer El Gris Importa, SUSCRÍBETE: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/elgrisimporta/subscribe---pistasNuestro libro:https://www.amazon.es/EL-GRIS-IMPORTA-MIGUEL-ORS-ebook/dp/B0F3GWR6RC/ref=pd_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0_image?pd_rd_w=X1VUX&content-id=amzn1.sym.5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663%3Aamzn1.symc.ca948091-a64d-450e-86d7-c161ca33337b&pf_rd_p=5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663&pf_rd_r=99DSBY16AP8V1XF73ZFX&pd_rd_wg=g0SXb&pd_rd_r=7df3232d-985e-4180-be6a-2378fcad7a9d&pd_rd_i=B0F3GWR6RCLa factura del cupo catalán: Privilegios territoriales frente a ciudadaníaFrancisco de la Torre y Jesús Fernández Villaverdehttps://www.amazon.es/factura-del-cupo-catal%C3%A1n-territoriales/dp/8410940604/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3C5NFVLN0I79B&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.pJK1nz9CcPJoTj0zg29a-RViGEdAe91MO7HFc5142ZI2v6kv4AYuAh3-9Dl_6hbw2hsuubTVzTuoWa_mCCpX1udeSYgx-3ZfuNSN2k8tqnA.BkkoVaSzYw4AcGF_nOiLrL5FqM8r3Ru025Vr1Gd3TjA&dib_tag=se&keywords=jesus+fernandez+villaverde&qid=1753686912&sprefix=VILLAVERDE%2Caps%2C92&sr=8-1

Bitcoin deja de ser (solo) un casino (13/7/25) - EGI 213. El gris importa es un PODCAST de ECONOMÍA de Miguel Ors Villarejo y Javier Díaz-Giménez producido por Pedro Artiles.---subsAyúdanos a hacer El Gris Importa, SUSCRÍBETE: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/elgrisimporta/subscribe---pistasNuestro libro:https://www.amazon.es/EL-GRIS-IMPORTA-MIGUEL-ORS-ebook/dp/B0F3GWR6RC/ref=pd_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0_image?pd_rd_w=X1VUX&content-id=amzn1.sym.5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663%3Aamzn1.symc.ca948091-a64d-450e-86d7-c161ca33337b&pf_rd_p=5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663&pf_rd_r=99DSBY16AP8V1XF73ZFX&pd_rd_wg=g0SXb&pd_rd_r=7df3232d-985e-4180-be6a-2378fcad7a9d&pd_rd_i=B0F3GWR6RC

Las consecuencias económicas de la corrupción (15/6/25) - EGI 209. El gris importa es un PODCAST de ECONOMÍA de Miguel Ors Villarejo y Javier Díaz-Giménez producido por Pedro Artiles.---subsAyúdanos a hacer El Gris Importa, SUSCRÍBETE: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/elgrisimporta/subscribe---pistasNuestro libro:https://www.amazon.es/EL-GRIS-IMPORTA-MIGUEL-ORS-ebook/dp/B0F3GWR6RC/ref=pd_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0_image?pd_rd_w=X1VUX&content-id=amzn1.sym.5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663%3Aamzn1.symc.ca948091-a64d-450e-86d7-c161ca33337b&pf_rd_p=5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663&pf_rd_r=99DSBY16AP8V1XF73ZFX&pd_rd_wg=g0SXb&pd_rd_r=7df3232d-985e-4180-be6a-2378fcad7a9d&pd_rd_i=B0F3GWR6RC

La OPA del BBVA sobre el Sabadell, para dummies (25/5/25) - EGI 207. El gris importa es un PODCAST de ECONOMÍA de Miguel Ors Villarejo y Javier Díaz-Giménez producido por Pedro Artiles.---Feria del LibroEl próximo domingo 1 de junio de 2025 a las 12.00H, firmamos ejemplares de El Gris Importa en la Feria del Libro · CASETA 33.+++NO SE LO PIERDAN!+++---subsAyúdanos a hacer El Gris Importa, SUSCRÍBETE: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/elgrisimporta/subscribe---pistasY sacamos libro:https://www.amazon.es/EL-GRIS-IMPORTA-MIGUEL-ORS-ebook/dp/B0F3GWR6RC/ref=pd_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0_image?pd_rd_w=X1VUX&content-id=amzn1.sym.5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663%3Aamzn1.symc.ca948091-a64d-450e-86d7-c161ca33337b&pf_rd_p=5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663&pf_rd_r=99DSBY16AP8V1XF73ZFX&pd_rd_wg=g0SXb&pd_rd_r=7df3232d-985e-4180-be6a-2378fcad7a9d&pd_rd_i=B0F3GWR6RC

Espiral de Kindleberger (18/5/25) - EGI 206. El gris importa es un PODCAST de ECONOMÍA de Miguel Ors Villarejo y Javier Díaz-Giménez producido por Pedro Artiles.---notaHemos tenido dificultades técnicas a la hora de grabar el episodio. Por eso notaréis pausas en la edición de este episodio. Disculpad las molestias. El episodio sin editar está en nustro canal de YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xehVBd2itZ0---subsAyúdanos a hacer El Gris Importa, SUSCRÍBETE: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/elgrisimporta/subscribe---pistasY sacamos libro:https://www.amazon.es/EL-GRIS-IMPORTA-MIGUEL-ORS-ebook/dp/B0F3GWR6RC/ref=pd_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0_image?pd_rd_w=X1VUX&content-id=amzn1.sym.5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663%3Aamzn1.symc.ca948091-a64d-450e-86d7-c161ca33337b&pf_rd_p=5a2aff7c-ad46-4e62-b09b-dbe15bc29663&pf_rd_r=99DSBY16AP8V1XF73ZFX&pd_rd_wg=g0SXb&pd_rd_r=7df3232d-985e-4180-be6a-2378fcad7a9d&pd_rd_i=B0F3GWR6RC

¿Qué pasará con mi pensión?. Grabación especial de EGI de el 13 de marzo de 2025 con Mutualidad Caminos y Navales. Nuestra primera experiencia en directo con nuestros seguidores y amigos. Muchas gracias a todos por el cariño recibido. Sin duda repetiremos.

Les États généraux de l'information ont publié, il y a quelques jours en France, leurs propositions et recommandations. C'est dans ce cadre que l'Institut national de l'audiovisuel a rédigé un rapport de prospective sur le monde de l'information en 2050. L'atelier des médias a reçu la directrice générale déléguée de l'INA, Agnès Chauveau, pour en discuter. Le rapport final des États généraux de l'information – réunis à la demande du président français Emmanuel Macron – a été rendu public le 12 septembre, après plus de 9 mois de travaux. Le texte contient pas moins de 350 pages. 15 propositions et 2 recommandations pour améliorer la qualité de l'information.Dans le cadre de ces EGI, l'Institut national de l'audiovisuel a produit un rapport de prospective sur le monde de l'information en 2050, en partant du postulat que cinq chocs décisifs — technologique, économique, politique, sociétal et écologique — façonneront le monde de l'information dans vingt-cinq ans.Au micro de L'atelier des médias de RFI, la directrice générale déléguée de l'INA Agnès Chauveau présente les trois scénarios imaginés : un âge d'or de l'information (le plus optimiste), la mort de l'information (le plus pessimiste) et une information éclatée (scénario médian).Durant cet entretien qui dure plus de 35 minutes, il est aussi question de la mue de l'INA en producteur de contenus. "L'INA est devenu un média patrimonial parce que toutes ces archives qui sont conservées permettent d'éclairer l'actualité", explique Agnès Chauveau. "On pense qu'effectivement, la profondeur historique manque souvent dans la contextualisation de l'actualité. C'est le petit plus que nous apportons au quotidien", ajoute-t-elle.L'INA réalise d'excellentes audiences sur le numérique. Cela s'est tout particulièrement vu durant les Jeux olympiques de Paris 2024 sur Instagram et TikTok. "Ça nous a permis de conquérir des publics très jeunes. Le fait d'aller sur les réseaux sociaux, en fait, nous permet de conquérir ce public et je crois que c'est très important de donner un peu de contexte et un peu d'histoire et à ces publics beaucoup plus jeunes. C'est pour ça qu'on a voulu se détacher absolument de cette fibre de la nostalgie qui nous collait un petit peu à la peau et qu'on s'est dit non, le en fait, ces vidéos d'archives, cette histoire, ce n'est pas simplement de la nostalgie, ça nous permet de comprendre le passé et mieux comprendre le passé nous permet d'analyser le présent", analyse la directrice déléguée de l'INA.

Elite Gender Inversion (E.G.I.) is a conspiracy theory based on the inquiry to determine the biological sex of an individual, primarily through photographic and video evidence. According to the men and women who say they are experts in this field, EGI is a factual occurrence that can be verified in both exoteric and esoteric forms, saying it exists in most if not all, celebrities in Hollywood, Politics, or Sports. Joel tackles this bizarre conspiracy theory by looking into its occult beginnings, starting with the origin of Baphomet, from the entity's supposed start with the Knights Templar to the alchemist Eliphas Lévi's gnostic creation. Joel looks at the “markers” used by those who study EGI to determine whether someone has been inverted. He then looks at the landscape of supposed celebrities involved to establish his own thoughts on the validity of this theory Ohio Bigfoot Jamboree: Information Website: https://linktr.ee/joelthomasmedia Follow: Instagram | X | Facebook Watch: YouTube | Rumble Music: YouTube | Spotify | Apple Music Films: merkelfilms.com Email: freetherabbitspodcast@gmail.com Distributed by: merkel.media Produced by: @jack_theproducer OUTRO MUSIC Joel Thomas - Pulp YouTube | Apple Music | Spotify

Introduction In May 2024, Ambitious Impact (AIM) ran a program to incubate new effective giving initiatives (EGIs) in partnership with Giving What We Can. In short, EGIs focus on raising awareness and funneling public and philanthropic donations to the most cost-effective charities worldwide. In the last few years, several Effective Giving Initiatives, such as Doneer Effectief, Effektiv Spenden, and Giving What We Can, have moved millions in funding to the best charities globally. The success of these and other similar organizations suggests that further initiatives in this space could be highly beneficial, given that many highly effective charities are bottlenecked by access to funding. This article introduces five new effective giving initiatives incubated through the program we ran earlier this year in their own words. It summarizes their country of operation, near-term plans, targets, and any room for additional seed funding.[1] Organization Summaries Ellis Impact Co-founders [...] ---Outline:(00:05) Introduction(01:06) Organization Summaries(01:09) Ellis Impact(01:38) Background (why is this a promising country/angle for an EGI?)(02:47) Near-term plans(03:21) Targets (reach/giving multiplier/etc.)(03:45) Room for more funding(04:58) Benefficienza(05:25) Background (why is this a promising country/angle for an EGI?)(06:07) Near-term plans(06:47) Targets (reach/giving multiplier/etc.)(07:02) Room for more funding(07:44) Mieux Donner(08:11) Background(09:57) Near-term plans(11:26) Targets(11:56) Room for more funding(12:43) Effectief Geven(13:14) Background(14:06) Near-term plans(14:56) Targets(15:12) Room for more funding(15:41) Impactful Giving(16:06) Background (why is this a promising country/angle for an EGI?)(17:43) Near-term plans(18:40) Targets (reach/giving multiplier/etc.)(19:08) Room for more fundingThe original text contained 1 footnote which was omitted from this narration. --- First published: August 13th, 2024 Source: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/qq4KtwJHtCTLPqdy6/presenting-five-new-effective-giving-initiatives --- Narrated by TYPE III AUDIO.

Introduction In May 2024, Ambitious Impact (AIM) ran a program to incubate new effective giving initiatives (EGIs) in partnership with Giving What We Can. In short, EGIs focus on raising awareness and funneling public and philanthropic donations to the most cost-effective charities worldwide. In the last few years, several Effective Giving Initiatives, such as Doneer Effectief, Effektiv Spenden, and Giving What We Can, have moved millions in funding to the best charities globally. The success of these and other similar organizations suggests that further initiatives in this space could be highly beneficial, given that many highly effective charities are bottlenecked by access to funding. This article introduces five new effective giving initiatives incubated through the program we ran earlier this year in their own words. It summarizes their country of operation, near-term plans, targets, and any room for additional seed funding.[1]Organization SummariesEllis Impact Co-founders: Fernando Martin-Gullans, Helene [...] ---Outline:(00:11) Introduction(01:10) Organization Summaries(01:14) Ellis Impact(01:42) Background (why is this a promising country/angle for an EGI?)(02:51) Near-term plans(03:25) Targets (reach/giving multiplier/etc.)(03:48) Room for more funding(05:02) Benefficienza(05:28) Background (why is this a promising country/angle for an EGI?)(06:10) Near-term plans(06:51) Targets (reach/giving multiplier/etc.)(07:05) Room for more funding(07:48) Mieux Donner(08:14) Background(10:00) Near-term plans(11:28) Targets(11:57) Room for more funding(12:44) Effectief Geven(13:16) Background(14:07) Near-term plans(14:57) Targets(15:13) Room for more funding(15:41) Impactful Giving(16:06) Background (why is this a promising country/angle for an EGI?)(17:43) Near-term plans(18:39) Targets (reach/giving multiplier/etc.)(19:08) Room for more fundingThe original text contained 1 footnote which was omitted from this narration. --- First published: August 13th, 2024 Source: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/qq4KtwJHtCTLPqdy6/presenting-five-new-effective-giving-initiatives --- Narrated by TYPE III AUDIO.

Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Presenting five new effective giving initiatives, published by CE on August 13, 2024 on The Effective Altruism Forum. Introduction In May 2024, Ambitious Impact (AIM) ran a program to incubate new effective giving initiatives (EGIs) in partnership with Giving What We Can. In short, EGIs focus on raising awareness and funneling public and philanthropic donations to the most cost-effective charities worldwide. In the last few years, several Effective Giving Initiatives, such as Doneer Effectief, Effektiv Spenden, and Giving What We Can, have moved millions in funding to the best charities globally. The success of these and other similar organizations suggests that further initiatives in this space could be highly beneficial, given that many highly effective charities are bottlenecked by access to funding. This article introduces five new effective giving initiatives incubated through the program we ran earlier this year in their own words. It summarizes their country of operation, near-term plans, targets, and any room for additional seed funding.[1] Organization Summaries Ellis Impact Co-founders: Fernando Martin-Gullans, Helene Kortschak Country of operation: United States (New York City) Website: www.ellisimpact.org Email address: fernando@ellisimpact.org, helene@ellisimpact.org Seed grant: $84,000 Background (why is this a promising country/angle for an EGI?) While Americans are the global leaders in total charitable giving, with over $450 billion donated annually, they currently give less than 0.5% of it to the most effective charities. Ellis Impact aims to expand effective giving by focusing on high-net-worth individuals (HNWIs) in New York City. Why HNWIs? Charitable donations are overwhelmingly heavy-tailed. For example, less than 5% of donors account for 40% of donations at existing EGIs such as Giving What We Can and Effektiv Spenden. Why New York City? Home to the largest number of millionaires (>350,000) and a GDP of $1.2 trillion, NYC has the highest wealth concentration in the world and is more economically powerful than many countries with existing EGIs (e.g., Netherlands, Sweden, Norway). It also has the highest charitable giving in the US, totaling $20 billion per year in itemized donations. Near-term plans Our first six months will focus on expanding our local network of prospective donors by attending events (e.g., networking events, conferences, galas) and tapping into existing and under-explored communities in NYC (e.g. EA Finance). We plan to further engage prospective donors through 1-1 advising and hosting our first lean, in-person events to raise awareness around effective giving, bring together like-minded individuals, and introduce them to cause area experts. Targets (reach/giving multiplier/etc.) Our minimum goal for our first nine months is to counterfactually raise our seed funding amount in public donations (>$84,000). Our ambitious goal is to raise three times as many counterfactual donations as we received in seed funding (i.e., $252,000). Room for more funding In late July, we raised $84,000 from the Seed Funding Network, allowing us to run for nine months. We would require an additional $20,000 to extend our runway to 12 months, decreasing the risk of having to shut down before we can demonstrate good results since, according to the experience of other HNW donor advisors, donor relationships potentially take longer than nine months to cultivate. Any funding on top of that would be used for hosting and attending additional and higher-quality events to meet and engage prospective donors. If you are interested in supporting our efforts in other ways, we are currently: Looking for warm introductions to prospective donors in NYC as well as super connectors and ambassadors for future warm introductions. If you know someone you think we shou...

Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: A short comparison of starting an effective giving organization vs. founding a direct delivery charity, published by Joey on January 11, 2024 on The Effective Altruism Forum. CE has recently started a new program to incubate Effective Giving Initiatives (EGIs). Although this is a sub-category of meta charities, I think it has some interesting and unique differences. I expect a decent percentage of people who are interested in the Effective Giving Incubation Program are also considering founding a charity unrelated to effective giving, so I wanted to write up a quick post comparing a few of the pros and cons of each - as I historically have had a chance to found both. A brief history About ten years back, I co-founded Charity Science (later renamed Charity Science Outreach) to raise money for effective charities that had extremely limited marketing and outreach. We used GiveWell and ACE recommendations, selecting AMF and THL specifically as the targets. We did several experiments, diligently keeping track of the results of our time spent and the results. After a couple of unsuccessful experiments (e.g., grant writing, which raised ~$50k in 12 FTE months), we hit some successes with peer-to-peer fundraising (e.g., supporting people donating funds for their birthdays). Depending on how aggressively you discount for counterfactuals, we raised a decent amount of money (in the several 100,000s). Although this was pretty successful, we pivoted to founding a direct charity where our comparative advantage was strongest and could bring the most impact and handed off the projects. Eight years ago, some of the same team members (and a few new ones) founded Charity Science Health. This was a direct implementation charity focused on vaccination reminders in North India. We got a GiveWell seed grant and became a reasonable-sized actor over the course of three years, reaching over a hundred thousand people with vaccination reminders at a very low cost per person (under $1). The trickiest part of this intervention was to (cost-effectively) get the right people to hear about the program, as the signup costs were about 70% of the entire program cost, and targeting was extremely important. A few interventions we tried did not work (mass media, government partnerships), and a few worked well (hospital partnerships, door-to-door surveys). This project eventually merged with Suvita after the founders left to run other projects (including Charity Entrepreneurship itself). In many ways, I feel starting an effective giving org was very useful for later starting a direct implementation charity, as many of the skills overlapped, and it was a less challenging project to get off the ground. In the rest of this post, I'd like to pull out the main takeaways that can be learned from these projects and would be cross-applicable to those considering both career options. Odds of success Founding any project carries a risk of failure. Failure in the case of an effective giving org would most commonly mean spending more than what gets raised for effective charities. Failure with a direct NGO can result in the people you are trying to help being harmed, making the stakes higher and there being more of a downside. In general, founding an Effective Giving Initiative I would expect to have higher odds of success. There are just more points of failure for a direct NGO. It could struggle with fundraising (an issue equally important in EGI) and implementation even if fundraising succeeds. In my view, this, among other factors, makes EGIs have higher odds of success than direct NGOs. Net impact The net impact is tricky to estimate, as the spread is considerable, even within pre-selected CE rounds. This also means that personal fit could overrule this factor. My current sense is that a direct charity has a higher...

As president of EGI, Mark oversees all aspects of the business. He focuses on maximizing and sustaining the value of the firm's investment portfolio and applies his 20+ years of board and CEO experience inside and outside the organization by actively engaging with the investment team and portfolio companies to improve business strategies and operating capabilities. In addition, Mark is the chair of the Chai Trust Company, LLC (Chai) investment committee as well as the executive vice president of Chai, which serves as the corporate trustee for the Zell family trusts. He also serves as board chair for Ardent Health Services, East Coast Warehouse & Distribution, Lanter Delivery Systems, Paper Transport, and an agricultural equipment dealer. Mark joined EGI in 2006 as a managing director and has held temporary in-house assignments within EGI portfolio companies to accelerate and increase the effectiveness of turnarounds, including stints at Tribune Interactive and Exterran Holdings, Inc. Prior to joining EGI, Mark was the chief executive officer of Sunburst Technology Corporation and on the company's board of directors. He also served as the president of Budget Group, Inc. (Budget Rent A Car and Ryder Truck Rental) and was on the company's board. Earlier in his career, Mark worked at The Coca-Cola Company in senior brand management and sales roles. Mark holds an MBA from Harvard Business School and a BA from Amherst College.

In this episode, we're diving deep into an often under-discussed aspect of midlife reality: caring for aging parents with dementia. This is a journey filled with love, challenges, and resilience, and I know many of the listeners are walking this path right now. I understand it can be a delicate balance, trying to navigate your career, personal life, and the responsibility of caring for loved ones.To shed light on this issue, I have an inspiring guest who's transforming the way we think about and offer support to those dealing with dementia. This episode promises to be enlightening and provide practical tips to help those facing these very real challenges. So stay tuned, as we delve into the heart of navigating life with aging parents and dementia - a true midlife reality.Christiana Egi is always busy. As a Registered Nurse, Diabetes Educator, Registered Natural Health Nutritionist, Geriatric and Mental Health Specialist, mother, and grandmother, she is always trying to help inform and support others.In her free time, she co-hosts the biweekly Podcast, Forever Young with Cherrie-Marie Chiu (ALS Double Play) that tackles issues of mental and physical wellness.Egi spent 10 years of her 34-year nursing career working in the crisis unit of Canada's largest psychiatric hospital. For the last 24 years, she has owned and operated Alexis Lodge Retirement Facilities in Toronto, Canada, a business she started with her late husband, Anthony. Their mission is to impact the lives of individuals with Alzheimer's disease and other types of dementia with a focus on providing person-centered care, putting the individuals first and giving them a place to call home. You can find Christiana here:https://linktr.ee/ChristianaEgiTo learn more, visit:www.servingstrong.comListen to more episodes on Mission Matters:www.missionmatters.com/author/scott-couchenour25 Minutes of Unfinished Business, hosted by Alex BrayshawThe reason I've created Unfinished Business is because I'm passionate about business...Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify

J Darrin Gross I'd like to ask you, Ryan Gibson, what is the Biggest Risk?   Ryan Gibson  Yeah, so I would say your biggest risks are external threats. Things like cap rate expansion, you know, property values declining, really can't control that. Interest rate, risk, etc. But I would say my focus that I'd like to share is five main things that I look at, in underwriting a deal. In I can do this in 10 seconds. I look at revenue growth year over year, and is it reasonable? Does the business plan, identify if that revenue is achievable based on the market study that you've done, somebody else has done or an operator's done? The second thing I look at is insurance. So insurance costs are not going down. So if you have not pro forma added, that your insurance expenses are going up, I usually don't like the deal anymore. As much. The second thing that I access risk, or the third thing is property taxes, property taxes are not going down, property taxes are going up. And if you're not planning on property taxes, at least doubling over a five year hold period, I don't think we've assessed the risk and the opportunity. The third thing I look at is expense to gross our revenue to expense income. So Egi, expense to gross income ratio, I guess there's another way of saying it Egi. That's if you make $1 of revenue, what percentage will be your operating expenses. And so in self storage, I'll look at a deal. And I'll say, you know, I expect to see between 35 and 40%, expense to gross income ratio, meaning that if you're collecting $1, I expect to see 35 to 40 cents for that dollar and expenses, and all your utilities, insurance, property taxes, all that stuff before debt service. If I see that number 20%, or 15%, I don't think there has been enough assessment in the underwriting to really accurately depict the worthiness of that deal. And the last thing I look at is cap rate. Because cap rate, you know, we love to everybody loves to think that they're the best operator, they have secrets and things like that. But at the end of the day, cap rates drive the value, they drive, the value, they drive, the exit strategy they drive, the market really drives where a lot of these assets can perform. And yeah, we can control and do our best. But that cap rate really makes an impact. I mean, one $1 on a 6% cap rate means $15 evaluation. So yes, operating income can do that. But I like to see an investment where you can stress test it. And that you can actually show the cap rate getting worse than what you bought it for. Not from your operations, but just market cap rates. So if you buy something going in cap rate at 5%. In today's market, I'd like to see that it can exit at a market cap rate of 6% and still be profitable. So when I assess risk, I look at those five things and underwriting and I and I really kind of stick to my guns on that. That's how I can look at a deal in 30 seconds. No, have they adequately assess the risk? Of course, there's tons of more things that you need to do beyond that, but those are kind of my five quick checkboxes on any opportunity.  

Nama aku Pranandika Prastiagi. Orang-orang di kampung dalang sini biasa memanggilku Egi. Aku adalah keturunan ketujuh dari seorang dukun paling disegani di kampung ini. Dan inilah kisahku di kampung dalang. Twitter @ssSOLIIpodcast: http://twitter.com/ssSOLIIpodcast Tiktok @solii1313 http://www.tiktok.com/@solii1313 Telegram Channel SUKA-SUKA SOLII: https://t.me/ssSOLIIpodcast --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/solii1313/message

The grey thing. Is David Icke bad? Do you believe me? Alex Jones finally gets the hammer brought down on him. We check out some reviews from our favorite OnlyFans employee. We REMEMBER how fucking evil Disney is. Kristen Stewart is trans and gay. Is oil infinite or nah? Doja Cat shaves her head. Have you ever popped a woody, just to find out that it's an EGI post? Lil Xan is still brainless. Micah Dank admits to being a money man. Diamonds are fake. An ex mason gives up the 411? Aaron C. & the caliber of his fans. Jewel is unclean & confused about what kids are. The CLASSIC area 51 call that started it all. + WAY MORE. OUR FIRST YOUTUBE CLIP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KANmSxb1x34&t=1s  JOIN THE MINUS WORLD: buymeacoffee.com/TheWrongWarp The entire video archive is in The Minus World, but each week's episode will live for free, the week that they air at TheWrongWarp.com Email the show: Ketsuban@TheWrongWarp.com Follow on Instagram @thewrongwarps  Follow on Twitter @TheWrongWarp Check out The Blue Hues on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/6nffJGtjWZwrssFzfpKLJU Copyright Disclaimer: Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for ”fair use” for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. The Wrong Warp is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. The opinions expressed in this program are simply obscure  jokes & do not purport to reflect the opinions of Ketsuban or The Wrong Warp.    

Learn more about the podcast and it's presenters at: https://therequitygroup.com/   Let's focus on the elephant in the room and by saying that I mean the many faces of the RV campgrounds asset class. When you first look into adding an RV campground property into your portfolio it seems like a straightforward process. You just sign a deal and let it work for you. That is one way of doing it but you want to make sure you make the most of your investment. Today we break down the different types of campgrounds you can operate and how to pick the best option for you. We don't leave you with just the basics, we give our golden nuggets to success.    We hope you enjoy this mini-series. We will cover  -The industry as a whole-Similarsites to the self-storage industry-How to invest in the management of the property-Scouting and planning the first steps for success-Answer any questions you may have, be sure to send us a message or leave a comment.+ Much more!   Take a look at some of the topics in this interview 00:00 - Intro 02:004 - The four types of Campgrounds 056:5002 - Explaining short term RV campgrounds 07:59 - Occupancy in the RV space 11:305  - EGI, A very important metric (effective gross income) Our Socials   Website(s) https://therequitygroup.com/ Learn more about the podcast and it's presenters at: https://therequitygroup.com/ Register to Invest with The Requity Group: https://investors.appfolioim.com/trg/investor/request_access Learn more about the podcast and it's presenters at: https://therequitygroup.com/ Register to Invest with The Requity Group: https://investors.appfolioim.com/trg/investor/request_access

Episodio 73 de #EGI. Un PODCAST de economía de Miguel Ors Villarejo y Javier Díaz Giménez. Esta semana vamos a hablar de un tema que no ocupaba las portadas de los diarios desde hacía tiempo: el hambre, el hambre en el mundo. ---video https://youtu.be/Z95XvNMaDNE

ABOUT JUSTIN BRENNAN Justin Brennan is a third-generation multifamily investor and CEO of The Brennan Pohle Group. He is also a licensed general contractor, licensed real estate broker, and owns a property management company. With his finance degree from Pepperdine University and a dual master's degree from The University of San Diego's MBA/Burnham-Moore's School of Real Estate, Justin brings a diverse background and experience. What excites Justin most is spending time with family and kiddos traveling, kiteboarding, and experiencing the world.   THIS TOPIC IN A NUTSHELL: [01:40] Underwriting a 272-unit deal [02:29] What is Effective gross income (EGI)[02:58] How they came across with this deal [03:40] Value-add play[04:13] How to underwrite the deal[05:48] Loan to consider for this deal size[06:56] What they're ultimately looking for in a deal [08:30] Issue with the unit mix[09:04] Why two-bedroom unit mix is a more desirable investment[11:20] Supply and demand for a 2-bedroom unit mix[12:24] Giving offers lower than the purchase price[13:08] Expense ratio [14:00] Property taxes and insurance[15:40] How to reach out to Justin      KEY QUOTE: [07:50] The real issue that came down with this particular property is the unit mix. It's because 202 out of 272 units are one-bedroom and that's fine on the surface, but I want it at least 50-50, ideally, I want more 2-bedroom than one. I knew that I can get more pop on a 2 and 3-bedroom unit from a rent and valuation standpoint than I can with the one-bedroom.    SUMMARY OF BUSINESS:The Brennan Pohle Group is a San Diego CA & Austin TX-based private real estate firm focused on offering investment partners, accredited, family funds, and institutional firms access to multifamily real-estate opportunities with 15%+ projected annual returns*. With over 11 years of corporate experience in land acquisition, multi-unit development, and value-add apartment rehabilitation & management, The Brennan Pohle Group actively manages end-to-end operations of $10M+ assets at any given time. Through this end-to-end asset management approach, The Brennan Pohle Group has met or exceeded investor expected returns since inception.      ABOUT THE WESTSIDE INVESTORS NETWORK     TheWestside Investors Network is your community for investing knowledge for growth. For real estate professionals by real estate professionals. This show is focused on the next step in your career... investing, for those starting with nothing to multifamily syndication.      The Westside Investors Network strives to bring knowledge and education to the real estate professional that is seeking to gain more freedom in their life. The host AJ and Chris Shepard, are committed to sharing the wealth of knowledge that they have gained throughout the years to allow others the opportunity to learn and grow in their investing. They own Uptown Properties, a successful Property Management, and Brokerage Company. If you are interested in Property Management in the Portland Metro or Bend Metro Areas, please visit www.uptownpm.com. If you are interested in investing in multifamily syndication, please visit www.uptownsyndication.com.                   #realestate #realestateinvesting #passiveincome #investing #realestateinvestor #investor #investments #properties #realestateinvestment #business #REinvesting #beyourownboss #entrepreneurlife #motivation #mindset #success #entrepreneur #commercialrealestate #multifamily #CRE #CREinvesting #realestategoals #cashflow #rentalproperty #investing101 #financialfreedom #incomeapproach #partnership #syndication #generalpartner #limitedpartner #construction #brokerage #syndicator #valueadd #acquisition #apartmentbuildings #apartmentrehab #development #sandiego #california     CONNECT WITH JUSTIN BRENNAN:   Website: https://www.justincbrennan.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justinbrennan/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/brennanpohleInstagram: @justin_c_brennanYouTube: @JustinBrennan To watch the full video on Youtube:https://youtu.be/1GsH56NqWdg  CONNECT WITH US   For more information about investing with AJ and Chris:  ·    Uptown Syndication | https://www.uptownsyndication.com/  ·    LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/company/71673294/admin/         For information on Portland Property Management:  ·    Uptown Properties | http://www.uptownpm.com  ·    Youtube | @UptownProperties     Westside Investors Network  ·    Website | https://www.westsideinvestorsnetwork.com/  ·    Twitter | https://twitter.com/WIN_pdx  ·    Instagram | @westsideinvestorsnetwork  ·    LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/groups/13949165/  ·    Facebook | @WestsideInvestorsNetwork  ·    Youtube | @WestsideInvestorsNetwork  

Ada Egi, mahasiswi Fakultas Kedokteran Gigi namun mawas juga soal fashion. Kira-kira Egi style fashionnya seperti apa ya? --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/nadhif-muhammad-farhan/support

In this episode of Michigan Minds, Director of the Economic Growth Institute (EGI) Steve Wilson explains how EGI works with businesses and communities to help them navigate challenges and create positive economic impact. He also discusses difficulties they are preparing to help organizations face in the new year and emphasizes how important students are to helping conduct research on equitable economic growth. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Their mission is to change the status quo and leverage the talent of Women in Produce to close the industry's gender divide by inspiring, connecting and empowering women around the world. And their mission matters more than ever. Today, women account for 80% of purchasing decisions, but only 20% of the voices guiding decisions in the boardroom. What's more, is that by 2030 we'll need the equivalent of two planets to feed a growing world population of 10 billion people – half of them female. Our industry is being called upon to feed the world more humanely, sustainably and efficiently – and more female leadership is a critical part of the answer. Beanstalk Global has partnered up with Global Women Fresh to create a unique monthly Broadcast interview series. This to further promote the great work they do, to gain them more members ongoing and additional corporate sponsorship as well as to assist them to make a long-term difference in the Global Fresh Produce sectors. In the very successful “Coffee and Tea with Global Women Fresh” series, for November we are very excited to assist Global Women Fresh to launch their international “Micro-Finance” pilot program. The microfinance intervention by the Global Women Fresh is part of the SheTrades Rwanda project, part of the project to enhance the effectiveness and efficiency of export growth initiatives (EGI project) led by the Ministry of Trade and Industry of Rwanda (MINICOM). The SheTrades Rwanda project is implemented by the International Trade Centre (ITC) SheTrades Initiative and funded by the Enhanced Integrated Framework (EIF). The majority of the world's poor share one profession: farming. Most of these farmers cultivate less than 10 acres of land, far away from paved roads and with limited access to the improved seed and fertilizer they need to produce good harvests. Most of these farmers also lack access to financial services that could help them buy that seed and fertilizer. If the global microfinance industry seeks to have a long-term impact on global poverty, it must address the needs of smallholder farmers. Most microfinance institutions are focused in urban and peri-urban areas, but a few offer products specifically targeted at farmers. There has been fast-growing interest in the farm microfinance sector in the last few years. The World Bank estimates that agricultural development is “two to four times more effective in raising incomes among the very poor than growth in other sectors.” Not only is this a high-impact sector, it's also a large one. Farmers account for more than 30% of the global working-age population, and most of them live in poor countries. And a significant portion are women. Global Women Fresh are going to brief and inform us all of their own “Micro-Finance” pilot program and to assist, we will have key speakers and businesses including: Liz Becerra / International Trade Centre. Julie Escobar / President of Global Women Fresh. Immaculee Mukamana / Nyamurinda Coffee – Rwanda Sakina Usengimana / Afrifoods Ltd – Rwanda Gisele Umuhoza / National Coordinator SheTrades – Rwanda 

Panelistas consideran que hay acuerdos sin peso como la deforestación cero al 2030; proponen medidas coercitivas y presencia institucional para enfrentar deforestación y EGI.

Wo ist denn die "Erste Generation Internet" hin? Viel Online-Präsenz hat sie nicht unbedingt hinterlassen...!Ok, meine Formulierung "Erste Generation Internet" kann man nun falsch verstehen. Ich spreche nicht von Stanford und den 50ern, die erste Netzwerkverbindung, das erste Protokoll und die "IP on everything"-T-Shirts oder erstmalige Nutzung von "Hello World!". Nein, ich spreche von der Generation der 18-jährigen, oder kurz davor oder ein wenig drüber, die in den letzten 90ern, also den 1990ern, die erste Generation war, die zwar mit viel Geld verbunden aber als erste problemlos von zu Hause aus das Internet kennenlernen konnte. Wer sich für Team Blau oder Team Magenta entschieden hatte und immer ein wenig neidisch in die USA und den dortigen GeoCities guckte, und wahlweise mit einem 33k- oder 56k-Modem die Einwahlorgel erleben durfte, konnte problemlos E-Mail nutzen und erste Portale wie Spiegel, T-Online, AOL oder eben auch openBC, heute besser als XING bekannt, beim Entstehen und wachsen zusehen. Ebenso wie das Regensburger Telebuch.de, die heute amazon Deutschland heißen, was sie einer Übernahme zu verdanken haben. Aber, so meine eigene Feststellung: wo ist die erste Generation denn hin verschwunden? Kaum einer ist auf XING oder LinkedIn, kaum einer betreibt eine eigene Webseite. Auf Facebook nicht aktiv zu sein gibt von mir Daumen hoch - aber auch hier, kaum ein Treffer... was bitte ist denn hier passiert, dass ihr alle zur ersten Generation Internet-Verweigerern wurdet? Startoberfläche AOL / Bild-/Quelle: erinnerstdudich.de Wenn du so Mitte der Siebziger geboren wurdest, bist du für mich in Deutschland das, was ich EGI - "Erste Generation Internet" getauft habe. Du kannst dich noch an die vielen Untersetzer für Tassen und Gläser erinnern, die wir damals, dann in den Neunzigern, frei Haus oder mit unzähligen Zeitschriften zusammen bekommen haben: Die beiden einzigen Internet Provider Deutschlands lieferten sich ein Kopf-an-Kopf-Rennen über die Marktführerschaft und verschenkten daher ihre CDs, mit denen der benötigte Client als auch Einwahldaten für den Dienst, sei es T-Online oder AOL Deutschland, integriert waren. Single-Sign-On, sozusagen - ja, wenn... wenn du ein Modem dein Eigen nanntest! Derer gab es zum damaligen Zeitpunkt zwei - na ja, und etwas, das wir BTX nannten. Aber das war ja mehr Teletext als Internet, daher ist der Bildschirmtext hier raus! Entweder du hattest vor allen Vorsprung, dann hattest du bereits seit geraumer Zeit ein 33er-Modem. Oder, JETZT war dein Moment fürs Netz gekommen, dann nutzt du das neue und rasend schnelle 56k-Modem. Sagen wir es so: mal angenommen, YouPorn hatte nur Bilder. Und die alle nicht über 1Mbyte pro Datei, du wärst nach drei, spätestens vier Bildern wieder weg! Versprochen! Aber hey! Wir waren im Netz! Der Begriff "Neuland" war noch nicht von der Politik ausgelutscht und für uns war es real. Und jeden Tag was Neues! Sagt euch "Hamsterdance" noch was? Nein? Dann schnell den vorstehenden Link geklickt: DAS IST DAS ORIGINAL! Wir haben es wochenlang angesehen und gekichert wie kleine Kinder! Und wir haben es per E-Mail und, wenn alle Empfänger bei AOL waren, über den Instant Messanger geteilt... also, an alle drei Freunde, die wir so online hatten. Ach, kleiner Fun Fact: zu diesem Zeitpunkt habe ich meine erste Bestellung bei dem, was wir heute amazon.de nennen, aufgegeben, damals unter dem Namen Telebuch.de, mit Anschrift in Regensburg, unter der amazon Deutschland heute noch residiert. Und schon damals: Versandkostenfreie Lieferung, wenn man denn ein Buch mitbestellt hat! Wow, wie die Zet vergeht! Doch dann - war die Schule vorbei und die Bundeswehr fand ausreichend Verwendung für uns. Das war ein Rückschlag für das Online-Leben, mal von den Wochenenden abgesehen und den notwendigen Leber-Schonungsmaßnahmen, die gerne am Computer verbracht werden wollten. Aber, nun fand die nächste Technik langsam Einzug: das Handy. Unvorstellbar, dass wir damals unterschiedliche Preise für Tags und Abends bezahlt haben... und die waren teilweise bis zu 1,49€ PRO MINUTE - WOHL GEMERKT - unterschiedlich! Und als Handy: das Nokia 2110. Mit Ausziehantenne. Und eines der wenigen, dass schon SMS empfangen UND SENDEN konnte! Viel Auswahl hatte man nicht: Telekom oder D2 Mannesmann. Langsam kam auch E-Plus durch. Aber, bis zum Ende durch die Fusion mit Viag Interkom, heutzutage als O2 bekannt, wusste jeder: mit E+ sparst du am meisten, weil du einfach nirgendwo Netz hast! Und im folgenden Studium die Internet-Revolution. Jede Hochschule hatte einen Internetzugang, den sich die wenigen aber immerhin frei verfügbaren Rechner hatten. Und das Internetangebot wuchs: blinkende und textlastige Homepages von Privat für den Rest der Welt, telebuch.de mit kostenfreiem Versand aller Bücher, Blitzerportale und sonstiger Schnickschnack, den die Welt nicht braucht - also, nicht weit weg von heute, aber nur rudimentär das, was wir heute von Webseiten so erwarten. Aber: jeder der immatrikuliert war, hatte freien Zugang zum Netz und entdeckte so auch die ersten Sexbilchen im Netz - ja, Erotik war einfach immer das schnellste, egal wo und wie! Und so konnte man auch mal das lokale Admin-Team aus der Nähe erleben - und sollte es das nicht gewesen sein, hat man auf einer Sun- oder Silicon Graphics-Unix-Maschine ein paar Pings und die Übertragung einiger (Cron-)Jobs auf weitere Rechner vergessen und mal schnell ein paar... Megabyte an Daten über das Wochenende um den Globus geschickt... kann ja mal vorkommen...! Aber das Internet wuchs unaufhaltsam weiter - nur die EGI, die erste Generation Internet, sie blieb zurück. Wo, ist teilweise unbekannt, da sie im Netz nicht in Erscheinung treten. Vereinzelte Spuren in alten E-Mail-Verteilerlisten aus Studiumszeiten sind die letzten Online-Zeitzeugen, dass diese Personen gelebt und auch online gewesen sein müssten. Was ist passiert? Heute, gute 30 Jahre später, ist das Netz nicht mehr wegzudenken. Und für die meisten auch das Handy. Aber: ein Blick in die gängigen Netzwerke offenbart nach wie vor eine erschreckende Zahl "Offliner", die sich dem Trend widersetzen bzw. auf in sich geschlossene Netzwerke wie whatsapp oder, wenn es sicher sein soll, Signal setzen. Das ist umso unglaublicher, als die nächste Generation - also, die "Achtziger" zugleich erstmalig als die "Digital Natives" bezeichnet wurden: für sie ist das Leben ohne Internet undenkbar. Sie haben keinen Bibliotheksausweis, dafür aber wikipedia. Sie konsumieren, aber auch im Illegalen, sei es Musik oder auch Film. Und sie springen auf die neuesten Trends: facebook, instagram, TikTok und auch auf das vergessene SnapChat. Aber was verursacht nun diese enorme Lücke zwischen den beiden Generationen? Wie so oft ein Zweigestirn: Wissensvorsprung und der heute so benannte "Early Adaptor". Jetzt könnte man sagen: "Hey Steve! Spinnst du? Das ist doch dasselbe?!?". Dann dreht bitte die Uhr zurück und jeder, der wahlweise mit einem Mac oder auf Windows ein 33- oder 56k-Modem installiert hat, hebe die Hand. Das war damals ein Erlebnis. Die "Chip", tatsächlich mal eine Fachzeitschrift, war voll mit Fehlern und Problemen, vor und nach einer Installation. Und auch damals nicht ganz trivial: wo genau ist der Anschluss, den die Bundespost noch ins Haus gelegt hat und wie bekomme ich, ohne, dass mich meine Eltern zur Adoption freigeben, die benötigten Meter an Modemkabel quer durch die Wohnung? Damals warst du Early Adaptor, einer der ersten, der online war. Mit all dem, was dazu gehörte. Da gab es keinen Wissensvorsprung, weil keiner von uns wusste, was kommt und was passiert. Aber wir haben, ganz Internet-like, unsere Erfahrungen geteilt: mit dem Rad zum Kumpel und tatkräftig unterstützt. Deshalb sind diese beiden Begriffe für die wilden Siebziger, anders als heute, kein Synonym. Und weil nun nicht jeder damals Eltern hatten, die zum Wohle des Kindes die meterlangen Kabeltrassen quer durch die Bude ignorieren wollten, konnte nicht jeder den Einstieg in das Internet wagen. Auch hatten wir damals noch echte Freizeitaktivitäten: mit dem Bike quer durch den Wald, und davon jeden Tag eine andere Abzweigung testen. Oder rausfinden, wo der beste Kumpel wohnt, da haben wir uns auch von 20 oder 30 Kilometer nicht abschrecken lassen. Wir saßen mit Gaskocher im Wald, Zelt neben und Schlafsack bereit um ein Wochenende mal "alleine" zu sein. Unter Freunden, natürlich. Wir sprangen von Brücken in den Fluss, ohne mit der Wimper zu zucken. Und ja, wir waren bei Wind und Wetter draußen! Einige sogar mit viel Herzblut und in Gruppen, denn Pfadfinder waren uns nicht fremd, dafür hat jeder im Garten seinen Schlauch bereitwillig aufgedreht, wenn zwei Jungs "hechelnd" mit leeren Flaschen vor der Tür standen! Daher meine Theorie: wenn du den frühen Einstieg ins Netz verpasst hast, hattest du wirklich besseres zu tun. Und das hast du sicherlich heute auch noch. Klar, mit iphone und dem neuen Schnickschnack wie WiFi und Datentarif bist auch du, der sonst nicht im Netz zu finden ist, online. Und kaufst auch bei amazon, aber eben nur, wenn der Weg zum Einkaufszentrum gerade versperrt ist oder du krank zu Hause bist. Sonst bevölkerst du die Fußgängerzonen dieser Nation. Und vielleicht warst du nie auf openbc, dafür hast du ein XING- oder sogar Linkedin-Profil. Aber dein Leben dreht sich, ganz im Gegenteil zu zum Beispiel mir, nicht um Schlaf, Arbeit, Online. Du hast ein Facebook-Profil, aber wahrscheinlich verwaist oder im Privat-Modus - und nicht im Klarnamen. Und außer ab und an alten Freunden zum Geburtstag zu gratulieren, bist du mit jedem Login nur am Passwort resetten. Geht es dir damit schlechter als mir? Ein klares NEIN! Nutze ich meine Zeit effektiver, da amazon Spar-Abos mir einen Großteil der Zeit mit anderen Dingen ermöglichen und würden Aldi und Lidl noch liefern, ich gar nicht mehr vor die Tür gehen. Subjektiv vielleicht ja, aber objektiv - wohl auch eher Gleichstand. Allerdings sind die Früheinsteiger dir um eines voraus: Wir haben gelernt, uns, teilweise ohne fremde Hilfe, stundenlang vor der PC-Kiste zu Hause Fehlermeldungen zu beseitigen und Dinge zum Laufen zu bekommen und damit ein anderes Verhältnis zu IT, Software, Hardware und Internet. So sehr es schmerzt: wir besitzen das bessere IT-Wissen. Nicht von Anfang an, aber ab dem Moment, ab dem es erstmalig für alle da war. Und das prägt uns bis heute und macht uns einer afiner, Dinge im Netz zu probieren oder eben auch mal selber eine Webseite, einen Blog, eine Fanpage oder ein YouTuber bzw. Switch-Player zu sein. Und nicht wenige verdienen, sei es nur als "Sidekick", Geld im Netz, und das auch noch legal! Und das schönste: Egal on du Feld, Wald, Wiese, Fluß oder Freundschaften gepflegt hast oder im Verein tätig warst und daher nicht dauernd nur im Netz hingst: wir haben uns, anders als heute, trotz unserer verschiedenen "Netzwerke", die wir gepflegt und genutzt haben, nicht aus den Augen verloren... und heute passiert das bereits, wenn Du nur den falschen Chatclient auf dem Handy hast. Vielleicht ist es gar nicht so schlimm, dass wir erste Internet-Generation ein wenig unterschiedlich und trotzdem befreundet sein konnten...?!? PodCast abonnieren: | direkt | iTunes | Spotify | Google | amazon | PROUDLY RECORDED AND PRODUCED WITH Ultraschall5 Folge direkt herunterladen

Meet Sali dengan Instagram blognya @wheelsaroundme yang bikin gua hooked lewat caranya bercerita. Sali berhasil bikin gua ngerasain mobil lawas 80-an 90an lewat nostalgic story, pemilihan kata, editing foto, dan sering kali vibe musik yang diputar. Sejenak berasa di Camry 2.4V tahun 2010, yang sempet gua pake, bahkan sensory gua bisa flashback sampe ke masa kecil di dalam Mitsubishi Kuda atau sedan Timor yang dulu jadi 'daily driver' bokap. On the other side of the mic, ada Egi dari @lairofstars yang fokus restorasi mobil Eropa classic yang timeless. Bener-bener berasa di era Presiden Soekarno. Pemahaman akan detail, fitur, & keunikan tiap seri Mercedes & BMW bikin cerita Egi didengar. Ibarat food blogger, Egi bukan sekedar bilang "best burger" padahal baru pernah coba 3 burger di hidupnya. Egi uda nyobain hampir semua burger yang bisa di coba. I fall in love with old-skool vibe. Episode ini mengingatkan gua kembali akan lunch di season 1 yang ngebahas vintage watch. Sejam just vibing, fun talks, appreciating life's goodness sambil belajar storyselling. I hope you enjoy this one as much as I do. Cheers, Ruby ____ Podcast Thirty Days of Lunch diinisiasi oleh @fellexandro dan @sheggario. Kita percaya bahwa momen 'lunch' bisa menjadi momen kita upgrade diri, dengan makan siang bersama orang-orang yang lebih kaya, bukan hanya kaya secara materi, tapi lebih penting lagi, kaya pengalaman, ilmu, insight, wisdom. Podcast ini adalah hadiah untuk Gen-Z dan Millenials yang sedang berproses menjalani hidup & karir-nya. Holla at Ruby & Ario to this email address : hello@thirtydaysoflunch.com

Ya amsyong ga kerasa masa sekolah udah ampir 5 taun yang lalu bahkan lebih ya?!?!?!?!? Lanjutan dari podcast yang waktu itu, masih bareng Egi dan kak Arief ngebahas masa-masa pengenalan sekolah dari tiap-tiap tingkatan. Ada yang sama juga gak nih? --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/bisasipotkes/support

Makanan makanan apa yang meresahkan ? Makan-nya cari tau di Resah Podcast Episode 2 with Ernest and Egi. Check this out !

Kicut dan Egi ngebahas anime-anime masa kecil, circa tahun 2000an awal.

Kenapa genere SoL tak lekang oleh waktu dan terus nyaman untuk dinikmati hingga penontonya dewasa? Kicut dan Egi bakal ngebahas perspektif dan pengalaman mereka dalam episode ini.

Episode 23 - "Why Socio-Economic Balance is Key to Property Industry Success.......A Masterclass for SME's" with Jane Hollinshead from IJD Consulting. This episode is an absolute masterclass in how to turn socio-economic disadvantage into an advantage for the property industry; delivered by one of the property industries leading experts - Jane Hollinshead. There is not much Jane has not done in the property industry, so it might be easiest to bullet point her remarkable career and expertise so you know to get out the pen and paper as her advice is priceless: Currently the Director and Principal of IJD Consulting, providing strategic advice to real estate private and listed companies, professional advisors, charities and industry organisations; as well as Currently a Non-Exec Advisor to Knight Frank People Board Currently a Non-Exec Director of Moorfield Group Currently of Board Member of Notting Hill Genesis Housing Association and Chair of NHG Operations Committee Previously a Board Member of Pathways to Property Previously a Board Member of CREFC Europe Previously a Partner and Head of Real Estate at Addleshaw Goddard Today we dive into the topic of socio-economic imbalance; and how property businesses can enhance both social impact & business performance in one go. We discuss in detail: What socio-economic disadvantage is, how to identify it and how to crush it The importance of cognitive diversity in a business How SME's can make a huge impact with a small footprint How SME's can outmanoeuvre rigid procurement checklists to demonstrate specialist value, even when competing against giants. The use of reverse mentoring and specialist diversity recruitment agencies such as Rare Recruitment (& my personal favourite) The 4 keys to recruitment success: Resilience, Driven, Self Awareness and Agility to Pivot Strap yourself in, grab a book and a pen and enjoy!!!! Resources: Jane's Socio-economic article in EGI: https://www.egi.co.uk/news/why-now-is-the-time-to-focus-on-socio-economic-imbalance/ With your hosts, Adam Hinds and Jordan Relfe from the Award Winning LifeProven Wellbeing Property Consultancy delivering Project Management, Quantity Surveying and Wellbeing Consultancy services across the UK and beyond. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/builtforlife/message

[AWAS HEBOH PAKE BANGET] Wow kali ini rusuh banget bayangin aja kek ngobrol di warkop padahal dari tempat masing-masing antar kota. Menghadirkan Fathan, sobat Egi sejak jaman kuliah, juga Haikal, sobat Anty sejak jaman kuliah, menceritakan tentang sahabatan antar lawan jenis yang mungkin gak sih gak pake perasaan??? Dengerin sendiri aja di 2 jam ini, moga ada hikmahnye ye! Thank you for being you! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/bisasipotkes/support

[AWAS RAME BANGET] Road to Anniversary 1 tahun Bisasi Potkes! Slow but sure, tapi berusaha konsisten juga, gak terasa mau setaunan aja ni potkes, walau yang diundang dan diajak ngobrolnya itu-itu aja, tapi makasih banyak udah mau denger sampai episode ini. Episode kali ini rombongan sirkus, ada Anty, Egi, Nurin, Kak Arief dan Kak Luthfi bahas tentang ulang tahun juga gimana mereka memaknai itu. Yaudah, intinya makasih banyak udah selalu ada! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/bisasipotkes/support

[AWAS PANJANG] Karena diantara kita berdua yang jadi anak rantau cuma Egi, jadi disini bintang tamunya Egi wkwkwkwkwkkw. Membahas gimana cara menjadi anak rantau versi Egi, dengerin deh pokoknya buat kamu yang pengen ngerantau jauh dari rumah, tapi inget jangan sampe orang rumah lupa sama kamu wkwkwk --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/bisasipotkes/support

Bill and Melinda Gates new inventions, Facebook is still popular and meta data rocks. Recap of David Wilcox vs Jordan Sather’s Popularity Contest. Dream boards, Transracial politics, how to be popular in the new world, Lauren Southern was very popular, EGI, manicuring social media for points, Willose experience at pulse nightclub, unpopular opinions about women, popular opinions about women, Punk rock anti professionalism hoax, Willose drops out, OS talks to a doctor about Rona, pareidolia vs apophenia, what is a TJW, qannon, Tom Hanks and his hot son, and finally a teaser for part 2 of The Popularity Contest on episode 4 part 2. SUBSCRIBE TO THE PATREON: http://www.patreon.com/popularitycontestpodcast33 for access to the PCP Discord SUBSCRIBE TO THE YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqBKUe-9hfcf_FFjk10UjNw Thanks.

Jarak memisahkan gua dan Egi, Karawang-Bekasi. Tak perlu ada yang disesali, ini semua murni takdir illahi yang memisahkan kami. Hari-hari harus gua jalani meski tanpa Egi, hingga gua temukan tambatan hati melalui BlackBerry. Kirimkan saran dan kritik Anda melalui pesan suara dengan tautan berikut ini https://anchor.fm/cintasesama/message || --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cintasesama/support

Diam-diam ada seseorang yang stalking Facebook gua dan Egi. Kirimkan saran dan kritik Anda melalui pesan suara dengan tautan berikut ini https://anchor.fm/cintasesama/message || --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cintasesama/support

Sekian minggu nggak ketemu Egi, akhirnya bisa ketemu lagi. Tapi malam minggu itu cukup spesial karena selain ketemu Egi, gua juga ketemu sama teman-teman Egi di komunitas. Kirimkan saran dan kritik Anda melalui pesan suara dengan tautan berikut ini https://anchor.fm/cintasesama/message || --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cintasesama/support

Setelah ciuman pertama di malam Minggu itu, gua dan Egi semakin dekat. Namun, pada akhirnya Egi mulai sibuk karena mendapatkan pekerjaan baru. Gua dan Egi tetap berteman seperti biasa hingga suatu saat ada angin segar berhembus dari sisi lain. Kirimkan saran dan kritik Anda melalui pesan suara dengan tautan berikut ini https://anchor.fm/cintasesama/message || --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cintasesama/support

Dimulai dengan Egi memutarkan sebuah lagu berjudul You and I yang dinyanyikan oleh Lady Gaga hinga tak terasa waktu menunjukkan hampir tengah malam. Kirimkan saran dan kritik Anda melalui pesan suara dengan tautan berikut ini https://anchor.fm/cintasesama/message || --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cintasesama/support

Hujan turun deras sejak senja hingga malam. Saat hujan reda, gua datang menemui Egi. Untuk pertama kalinya gua bertemu dengan Egi yang berwajah tampan dan malam itu adalah malam pertama gua dan Egi. Kirimkan saran dan kritik Anda melalui pesan suara dengan tautan berikut ini https://anchor.fm/cintasesama/message || --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cintasesama/support

Melalui SMS, gua dan Egi semakin dekat. Pada akhirnya, Egi mengajak gua untuk ketemuan. Kirimkan saran dan kritik Anda melalui pesan suara dengan tautan berikut ini https://anchor.fm/cintasesama/message || --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cintasesama/support

This episode is offered in English. Kicut and Egi talks about the newest Fishing SoL anime in town, Diary of Breakwater. We share our impression, opinions and trivia. Lets cast!

Berkewajiban sebagai mahasiswa namun juga memiliki tanggung jawab sebagai atlet merupakan perwujudan dari seorang Student Athlete, kali ini #HMPSIHTalks kedatangan narasumber yang merupakan mahasiswa aktif ilmu hukum Unika Soegijapranata bernama Egi. Selain menjadi mahasiswa Unika, Egi juga salah satu pemain basket untuk Klub Basket Sahabat Semarang yang bertanding di Srikandi Cup yang merupakan event nasional basket putri di Indonesia. Memiliki tanggung jawab sebagai mahasiswa dan atlet tentu bukan sesuatu yang mudah, Egi akan membagikan cerita pengalamannya menjadi seorang Student Athlete, yuk simak podcastnya!

[INSYAALLAH SERIUS] walau banyak ketawa, dan halang rintangnya, kali ini kita tepatnya Egi bakal sharing dari webinar yang dia simak soal Insecure. Sapose indang yang disini masih suka insecure? Gapapa kok! Wajar kalau kita insecure, tanda kita masih jadi manusia. Its okay to be not okay, anjay. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/bisasipotkes/support

Ngomongin Anime Moe dan seluk beluk cerita disekitarnya. Mulai dari media publikasi, drama pasca-produksi sampai teori konspirasi. Bareng Kct, Egi, dan (cameo) Dit.

On this episode I was joined by the man behind Empire Grappling, Jake Cross. Jake and I spoke about the evolution of Empire Grappling, his recent EGI event and plans for the future. Our Social Media: Facebook: Jake Cross - Fisticuffs_Podcast Instagram: Empiregrappling - Jakesaintcross - Fisticuffs_Podcast Twitter: Fisticuffs_Pod Youtube: Empire Grappling - Fisticuffs Sponsors: Fight Fuel UK fightfuel.co.uk Mauler MMA FCMMA20 at Mauler.com

Renungan pagi: KEJUJURAN ITU MAHAL Ada dua orang kecil seperti Mujenih dan Egi yang karena kejujurannya, mereka mendapatkan apresiasi yang luar biasa dari pemerintah. Tetapi ada orang yang jujur justru harus diturunkan dari jabatannya. Namun apapun hasilnya, orang yang jujur akan selalu dikenang dan dijadikan teladan sekalipun raganya telah hancur. Yesus Tuhan kita adalah Pribadi yang sangat jujur karena Dia tidak takut sama siapapun dan tak pernah cari muka. Jika kita mau jujur kita perlu bertindak sama seperti Dia. Kejujuran itu mahal! Selamat pagi, Tuhan Yesus memberkati kita semua.

In this episode of Michigan Minds, Ashlee Breitner of the Economic Growth Institute, discusses how EGI educates companies and communities on best practices in the public, private, and academic sectors during the COVID-19 pandemic. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Renungan pagi: ITU BUKAN HAK KITA Mujenih, petugas kebersihan kereta rel listrik jurusan Bogor dan temannya, Egi, telah membuktikan bahwa dengan memahami sungguh-sungguh tentang mana yang menjadi haknya dan mana yang bukan, dapat bertindak jujur dengan membawa uang 500 juta yang ditemukannya di gerbong kereta yang sedang dibersihkannya kepada bagian kehilangan barang-barang penumpang. Akhirnya, uang yang sangat banyak itu selamat kembali kepada tangan pemiliknya. Hal ini kembali mengingatkan kita agar kita pun perlu memahami dalam hal uang, mana yang menjadi hak kita dan mana yang bukan hak kita. Selamat pagi, Tuhan Yesus memberkati kita semua!

Salahkah bila diriku terlanjur kangen. Mengenangmu. Menghitung sakit pada benci yang mewaktu. Yaudah, dengerin aja cover lagu aku featuring (Egi) dan komposer kita, (Kris). Semoga menghibur kawan.

Selama pandemi, reality show jadi salah satu opsi hiburan untuk melupakan kegundahan akibat ketidakpastian yang ada saat ini. Setelah berdiam diri selama satu bulan, di episode terbaru kali ini, Dani dan Kuka ngobrol bareng Kelvin, Marco, dan Egi soal kenapa reality show jadi "pelarian" banyak orang di situasi kaya gini. Mulai dari Diary AFI sampai Terrace House, kita coba menjawab kenapa sih orang tertarik nonton acara reality show?

Lanjutan episode keempat dan bagian kedua dari Cekak (Cerita kaum kantoran) bareng @dewanrp dan Egi ngobrolin tentang pengalaman kerja yg sesuai passion atau tuntutan hidup. Langsung aja cekidot!

Episode keempat dan bagian pertama dari Cekak (Cerita kaum kantoran) bareng @dewanrp dan Egi ngobrolin tentang pengalaman kerja yg sesuai passion atau tuntutan hidup. Langsung aja cekidot!

Jadi karyawan atau wiraswasta ialah topik berulang di masyarakat. Egi (@beginoto) dan Pepen (@writeforrewrite) saat ini adalah karyawan, sedangkan Paulus (@kungfood.jkt) dan Juno (@kopikila) kini lebih fokus menjadi wiraswasta.  Empat pria mencoba menatap kembali jejak pertama mereka dalam memilih karir masing masing. Salam super!

Egi ternyata berniat ngelamar kerja jadi Pegawai Negeri Sipil (PNS) di Kementerian Pemuda dan Olahraga (Kemenpora). Tujuannya mau jadi agen perubahan untuk sepakbola dan jadi panitia Piala Dunia U-20 tentunya.

Egi, Pepen, Juno, dan Paulus berbincang tentang siapa mereka dan apa tujuan podcast BISPAK ini. Bincang Santai, Pak!

#GeoTALKwithCANIA kali ini membahas seputar bumi datar. Kalo bumi itu bulat, kenapa air tidak tumpah? - Egi, aktivis Indonesian Flat Earth Society. Nah lho! Bener gak sih bumi itu bulat? Atau jangan-jangan datar ya? Bagaimana menurut Anda? Selamat mendengarkan dan jangan lupa LIKE, SHARE, & FOLLOW! Follow Cania: https://twitter.com/cittairlanie https://www.instagram.com/cittairlanie/

I met Stephen Keppel on Twitter a few months back. I knew right away that I needed to have Stephen on. I’m always intrigued to see someone making a difference within a world that is known for its red tape and bureaucracy—the corporate world. Stephen is the Vice President of Social Impact at Univision, the General Manager of Rise Up, the Executive Director of the Univision Foundation, and the Co-Founder and Chairman of EGI—the Economic Growth Initiative for Haiti.  Follow Stephen on Twitter. And clicks the links above to keep up with the work he is doing at Univision and beyond.  Follow Let’s Give A Damn on Facebook, Instagram, & Twitter to keep up with all that is going on. We have so much planned for the coming months and we don’t want you to miss a thing! And if you want to follow Nick Laparra—Facebook, Instagram, & Twitter. Support Let’s Give A Damn by contributing the monthly amount of your choice on Patreon. 100% of the money you contribute will go to making more podcasts. Not a dime goes into our pockets! Or you can leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts! Every little bit helps. Thanks for all your help. Have a wonderful week! Please let me know how I can serve you better. Give more damns this week than ever before, my friends. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I thought this audio was worthy of being promoted to a full show episode, despite the mobile audio. Discord is making audio more available to normally non-audio fakeologists. Join now! We talk 9/11, EGI, Crane Hoax From Conkers: Haha well third times a charm I suppose! I was saying that it is rare to find […]

Not too interesting, this post is just a placeholder to document how the EGI seed has been sewn – once planted it can only grow as evidenced on the H&F show. You can’t unsee EGI once your brain is exposed. Crosslink   Support the site via Patreon | Other ways to donate No tags for […]

The hits just keep on coming. Talking truth is not for the thin skinned. I have no hard feelings towards H&F. What we discuss is difficult and life changing, if accepted. If it’s not accepted, it can only be laughed at. I realise Howard is really only interested in 9/11, but it was my EGI […]

EGi performing "Peaches" in WNIJ's Studio A:

Explosão De Bomba No Cairo Mata Capitão Da Polícia Egípcia by Discordia Mentis Podcast