Podcast appearances and mentions of kevin yes

Kevin and Aislinn talk about Wanderstop, the new game from the creator of The Stanley Parable Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:01:23: What Have We Been Up To 00:11:58: Game News 00:29:07: New Games 00:31:44: Wanderstop 01:15:33: Outro Links Pixelshire Release Date Honeymancer Early Access Release Date Space Sprouts Release Date Dave the Diver “Ichiban’s Holiday” DLC Another Harvest Moon G-Mode Game Cattle Country Optional Combat Funguys Swarm Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Kevin: Hello farmers, and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. My name is Kevin (0:00:34) Aislinn: And my name is Aislinn. (0:00:35) Kevin: And we are here to talk about cottagecore games supposedly that’s a little box. It’s whoo (0:00:40) Aislinn: Woo! (0:00:42) Kevin: I forget about that. Well, I always try to be a bit of a smart alec and adding nonsense there, but whoo (0:00:49) Kevin: Although I’m although I don’t know how much I like wooing at this game. I’m very hesitant about whoo (0:00:50) Aislinn: Woo! It’s cute, I like it. (0:00:56) Aislinn: That’s true, that’s true, you make a good point. (0:00:57) Kevin: I’m kidding. I love I love (0:00:58) Aislinn: Spoilers! (0:01:00) Kevin: We’re here to talk about wander stop the tea shop game by the I forget the actual dead team name the Stanley parable people (0:01:09) Kevin: Brace yourself because anyone who’s familiar Stanley parable knows that means things (0:01:16) Aislinn: I wholeheartedly agree. (0:01:17) Kevin: But (0:01:18) Kevin: Okay, but before we get to those things let’s talk about other things (0:01:23) Kevin: Aisling what’s what’s up? What’s been going on tell me about your sky high life? (0:01:26) Aislinn: Um, I think you already know what’s been going on. (0:01:30) Kevin: You (0:01:31) Aislinn: We’ve been very busy with work and when not working, (0:01:36) Aislinn: I’ve been very busy trying to make as much progress as humanly possible in Wandershop. (0:01:42) Kevin: Yeah (0:01:42) Aislinn: And when I’m not doing that, then I’m doing the usual like dailies on my phone of like (0:01:48) Aislinn: Pokémon Sleep, TCG Pocket. I’m hard into Neko Atsume right now. (0:01:50) Kevin: Uh-huh (0:01:52) Kevin: Okay (0:01:56) Aislinn: It’s just the original, and I want to try and get everything in Neko Atsume as much as possible. (0:01:57) Kevin: Okay, wait, what is that one do tell the name escapes me (0:02:03) Aislinn: It’s a cat collecting game. It’s a cat collecting mobile game, (0:02:07) Aislinn: and it’s literally just cat collection, and it’s so cute. It’s so cute. And there’s a new Neko Atsume (0:02:08) Kevin: oh yes okay i’m familiar with this one yes it is (0:02:14) Aislinn: that came out somewhat recently, so I’m like, I’m not gonna play that until I finish the original. (0:02:20) Aislinn: So that’s what I’ve been doing. And then if I’m not doing any of those, (0:02:22) Kevin: Sure. (0:02:25) Aislinn: that I’m doing a lot of wedding planning. (0:02:26) Aislinn: So that’s pretty much what I’ve been up to, yeah. (0:02:27) Kevin: Ahhh! (0:02:29) Kevin: Has that been on the show? Wait, has that been discussed on the show at all? (0:02:32) Kevin: I don’t, I don’t know if it… (0:02:32) Aislinn: No, it has not been discussed in the show, so. (0:02:34) Kevin: Ahh, okay, how far are we? What’s, uh, what’s our target date here? (0:02:39) Aislinn: Our tar- actually, I have not announced to, like, everyone the target date. (0:02:43) Kevin: Oh! (0:02:45) Aislinn: I’ve been keeping that, like, more on a personal note, but I can tell you June. (0:02:47) Kevin: Okay, well you got a range? (0:02:49) Kevin: Sure. (0:02:50) Kevin: Okay. Okay. Well, sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah. (0:02:52) Aislinn: Yeah, so we’re almost there. (0:02:52) Kevin: Yes. That’s correct. That’s correct. Very, um, very, very, uh, impressive dedicated you to to playing your wedding during the, the, the Go Fest this year, or whatever the thing’s called. (0:02:56) Aislinn: Yeah. (0:02:57) Aislinn: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:03:00) Aislinn: Literally, we’re not quite there yet. (0:03:06) Aislinn: It’s, yeah, no, each month that progresses closer and closer. (0:03:08) Kevin: Yes. That’s correct. That’s correct. Very, um, very, very, uh, impressive dedicated you to, to playing your wedding during the, the, the, the Go Fest this year, or whatever the thing’s called. (0:03:09) Aislinn: I’m like more and more just panic, panic, panic. (0:03:22) Aislinn: Well, that wasn’t that wasn’t in the works (0:03:22) Kevin: The, um, all right, but, uh, good stuff. Okay. So let’s see here. Okay. Just, just a side note on that. Have you, uh, I’d play a different kind of cat collecting game. Have you ever heard of the battle cats? (0:03:25) Aislinn: That wasn’t that wasn’t supposed to happen, but it just happened to happen and I was like well (0:03:29) Aislinn: We’re gonna see what happens with that (0:03:46) Aislinn: Um, no, what is that? I’m looking that up right now. (0:03:46) Kevin: Oh, I think I’ve talked to that on the show, but, um, (0:03:52) Kevin: you know, I’m going to tag you an image on the slack. I’m creating the, the live slack thread of me. (0:03:58) Aislinn: Wait, this looks so cute. (0:04:04) Kevin: What are you, you googled it. (0:04:04) Aislinn: I’m looking at it right now. (0:04:05) Aislinn: Yeah, of course I googled it. (0:04:08) Kevin: Okay. Because I was going to show all, but did you see the freaky ones yet? Um, yes, those are legs. Did you see the one with the buff one? That’s the last four legs. (0:04:10) Aislinn: Oh, those are legs. (0:04:19) Aislinn: I have not seen that yet. (0:04:22) Kevin: Yes. They’re kind of cute, but also terrifying. Like it’s, it’s a very cheek cheeky, like comical tone. Um, yeah. Yeah. There you go. There’s good old fish cat. And those are just the basics, right? Like this, it’s a gotcha game. (0:04:30) Aislinn: It’s a it’s a good aesthetic. I like, oh, I found the buff one. I found the buff one. (0:04:40) Kevin: So, and it’s, I think 10 years old now and they actually get a lot of crossovers. They’ve crossed over, they cross over like Hatsune Miku every six years. Um, Street Fighter was one. (0:04:50) Aislinn: Ooh. (0:04:54) Kevin: Um, Konosuba, I think lots of animes. I don’t know. Um, but it’s yeah. And on the best part, the best part about their crossover is you get both ways. You get Hatsune Miku as a playable character and then you get a cat that looks like Hatsune Miku. (0:05:00) Aislinn: You got me with Miku, that’s it. That’s the end-all for me. Miku or boss? That’s it. (0:05:13) Aislinn: Oh my god. That is wonderful. (0:05:14) Kevin: Here, I’ll see if I can find it. Um, I play that one on and off. My brother is a big, um, is a big, uh, (0:05:22) Kevin: battle cats fan more than ISO. Um, uh, but, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s a great one there. I posted a pic. You want to see it. Um, there’s your Hatsune Miku cat. Um, they literally just used the standard cat and put the costume on it. It’s, it’s hilarious. Oh, one of my favorite ones. They did Evangelion. (0:05:34) Aislinn: Oh my god! It’s so cute! It’s so good! (0:05:40) Aislinn: That’s wonderful! (0:05:46) Aislinn: Ooh, that’s sick. That’s really cool. (0:05:50) Kevin: That was a good one, that was a good one. (0:05:54) Kevin: Anyways, so anything else, I’m sorry? (0:05:55) Aislinn: Well, I will be checking out this game. (0:05:58) Aislinn: I will be checking out this game. (0:05:58) Kevin: Oh, it’s free, be warned. (0:06:02) Aislinn: Oh, perfect! That’s all I need. Free is for me. That’s it. (0:06:04) Kevin: There you go. (0:06:04) Aislinn: um that’s pretty much been it I guess actually one one little thing that I can kind of announce (0:06:06) Kevin: Aw, sick, I can’t wait to hear your thoughts on Battle Cats. (0:06:08) Kevin: It’s pretty fun. (0:06:10) Kevin: Anything else you’ve been up to? (0:06:19) Aislinn: and we’re really really hoping the best so like you know how I kept saying for today like oh i (0:06:21) Kevin: Yes, to be fair, you’re always busy so that wasn’t out of the ordinary. (0:06:23) Aislinn: have i’m busy earlier in the day and that’s we’re recording at 9 p.m eastern um yeah but it’s more (0:06:33) Aislinn: fun news so hope (0:06:34) Aislinn: we will have a new kitty or two in the household here so that’s what we were doing earlier today so i’m like I i’ve been holding that like i’ve been withholding that just for like a I wanted to get your genuine reaction like first reaction to it so (0:06:42) Kevin: Oh, oh hot off the press (0:06:54) Kevin: Oh (0:06:55) Aislinn: pause cast exclusive (0:06:57) Kevin: Podcast exclusive you heard it first here. Oh, that’s okay. Okay. You said possibly multiple. Well, yeah (0:07:05) Aislinn: yeah we’re just waiting on what I i’m not saying too much just because there’s a lot of logistics which I can tell you about later there’s a lot of logistics that we’re currently figuring out but it should hopefully work out tomorrow question mark. (0:07:11) Kevin: Sure (0:07:14) Kevin: Okay (0:07:15) Kevin: Yeah as (0:07:18) Kevin: You know, well, that’s that’s exciting. I can’t wait to hear and see them and so on but but that’s good (0:07:22) Aislinn: yeah. (0:07:24) Kevin: There should be logistics involved unlike us who a guy just kind of said. Hey, you want a free cat and handed us two kittens? (0:07:26) Aislinn: absolutely. (0:07:33) Kevin: Okay, oh they they are very love yes (0:07:33) Aislinn: but they are loved and that’s all that (0:07:34) Aislinn: matters but otherwise that’s it no not by any means (0:07:40) Kevin: Yeah that and let’s be honest cats are not the hardest to take care of (0:07:44) Kevin: You know that the hard part is cat. No, no such thing as catproofing but bracing for the uncommon storm, but (0:07:52) Aislinn: Yeah, we are definitely bracing here. (0:07:54) Kevin: Oh (0:07:55) Kevin: That’s exciting. I can’t wait to hear more. Um, congratulations. Very very excited about that (0:07:57) Aislinn: Yeah! Thank you! (0:08:00) Aislinn: What about for you? (0:08:01) Kevin: Okay, um (0:08:02) Kevin: so I will (0:08:02) Aislinn: I like your just Chicago man. (0:08:04) Kevin: Yeah, so I I don’t know if I mentioned it on this show, but I started a new job (0:08:12) Kevin: About a month and a half ago started February (0:08:15) Kevin: and (0:08:18) Kevin: I’m hit the ground running. They sent me to a trade show to man a booth (0:08:22) Kevin: and that was (0:08:24) Kevin: I was there all week this past week (0:08:26) Kevin: my feet are dead (0:08:28) Kevin: I’m ready to be chopped off (0:08:30) Kevin: not my first time in Chicago (0:08:32) Kevin: I actually went to that same event (0:08:34) Kevin: two years ago but (0:08:36) Kevin: as an attendee, not an exhibitor (0:08:38) Kevin: so yeah (0:08:38) Aislinn: Uh-huh. (0:08:40) Kevin: my role is partially sales now (0:08:42) Kevin: so I actually have to go up (0:08:44) Kevin: and pitch and talk to people and so on (0:08:46) Kevin: and so forth and try to get leads (0:08:48) Kevin: so that was (0:08:50) Kevin: busy, excited, it was good work (0:08:52) Kevin: Um, yeah. (0:08:52) Aislinn: Yeah. (0:08:54) Kevin: Um, I, I, I learned a lot trial by fire, absolutely, but good times. (0:08:58) Kevin: Um, and, and there was other enjoy it. (0:09:00) Kevin: Well, it was, it was like 90% work, but there were some nice dinners. (0:09:05) Kevin: One night we hit a piano bar. (0:09:07) Kevin: That was quite fun. (0:09:08) Aislinn: Ooooh, that’s really cool. (0:09:09) Kevin: Uh, it wasn’t, it wasn’t even, it wasn’t a super classy one. (0:09:12) Kevin: Um, it was very more bar than piano, if that makes sense. (0:09:15) Kevin: But you had the guy up there playing the songs and, and, and you can make requests (0:09:19) Kevin: and there was enough space to dance, which I did. (0:09:21) Kevin: I am a dancing machine. (0:09:22) Aislinn: Bye! (0:09:22) Kevin: fun fact. (0:09:24) Kevin: so yeah so which after a full day of standing and exhibiting wasn’t the best (0:09:30) Kevin: idea of my I pre bled my feet for the next day but but so worth it yeah yeah (0:09:34) Aislinn: Eh, it’s all in good fun. It’s all in good fun! (0:09:37) Kevin: um yeah that was uh that was fun I tried the deep dish that was good weather (0:09:44) Kevin: weather was insane it was it was snowing when I landed and like the next day we (0:09:50) Kevin: We hit 70 degrees and then two days later it hailed. (0:09:50) Aislinn: Oh, my. (0:09:54) Aislinn: Oh, my. (0:09:54) Kevin: It was a roller coaster. (0:09:56) Aislinn: Oh, my. (0:09:56) Kevin: Oh, a life first. I had a hailstone land directly into my mouth. (0:10:02) Kevin: As I said, was that hail and the duke just right in there? (0:10:06) Aislinn: Why do I feel like that’s like such a you thing? (0:10:10) Aislinn: That feels like such a you thing. (0:10:10) Kevin: Yeah, that’s… that’s correct. (0:10:12) Kevin: That is 100% correct. (0:10:16) Aislinn: I’ve never heard that before. That’s amazing. (0:10:18) Kevin: Yeah. (0:10:20) Kevin: Yup. (0:10:20) Aislinn: So it sounds like you had a great time in Chicago. (0:10:24) Kevin: Yeah, it was a lot of work, but it was a legendary time. (0:10:28) Kevin: We’ll be back in two years. Next year there’s a different trade. (0:10:30) Kevin: So actually here, right here in Atlanta, home turf. (0:10:34) Kevin: So at least I don’t have to do the major travel bit, but I’m sure it will be just as busy. (0:10:40) Kevin: But yes, good times were had, success was had by kind of me. (0:10:46) Kevin: Baby salesmen on his training wheels did little salesmen. (0:10:46) Aislinn: I’m sure you did great. (0:10:52) Kevin: Aside from that, obviously (0:10:54) Kevin: not a lot of time for games. I snuck in a few of the regulars. Marvel, Snap, Rivals, Unite, here and there on different occasions and so on. (0:11:00) Kevin: That’s all fine and all. (0:11:04) Kevin: Wander Stop, like you said, trying to squeeze in as much time humanly possible. (0:11:08) Kevin: And not even just because I want to play for the show, because I just want to play more Wander Stop. (0:11:08) Aislinn: No, me too I feel that, which we’ll definitely get into. (0:11:16) Kevin: And also, for the Mario-verse over there on the other show of Rainbow Road Radio, (0:11:22) Kevin: I play (0:11:24) Kevin: I did the same Kingdom. That’s not the little Mexican (0:11:27) Kevin: Kingdom in Super Mario Odyssey good times (0:11:30) Aislinn: Oh, sick. (0:11:31) Kevin: Yes, good. I love you mate. It’s all a replay (0:11:35) Kevin: But super enjoyable. I’m Mexican. What can I say? I’m super biased. They did I did Mario, Mexico (0:11:38) Aislinn: that game in general was just fantastic so i’m glad to hear that too that that section is like (0:11:40) Kevin: I have no complaints. They got him into sombrero (0:11:45) Kevin: It is yeah like (0:11:47) Kevin: What can I say what? (0:11:48) Aislinn: enjoyable for you (0:11:49) Kevin: She’s shocking this revisit to Super Mario Odyssey. Yeah, I’ve determined. It’s a good game (0:11:57) Kevin: Alright. (0:11:58) Kevin: Speaking of good games, I say that with an asterisk, or you have no idea. (0:12:02) Kevin: laughs Let’s talk about some game news. laughs Let’s talk about some announcements and such. (0:12:05) Aislinn: yeah (0:12:07) Kevin: Alright, take us away Ace with our first one. (0:12:09) Aislinn: all right so in game news the first game that I am looking at is pixel shire that’s going to be (0:12:16) Aislinn: releasing on the 8th of may and from what i’m looking at on the steam page it says that it is (0:12:22) Aislinn: an adventure farming sim 2d single player game from the developer capibits and it it really does (0:12:30) Aislinn: seem like a adventure farming sim 2d single player 2d single player game it also has notes about unique (0:12:37) Aislinn: RPG sandbox. (0:12:38) Aislinn: Which mixes Lifesim elements with town building, exploration, and combat. (0:12:46) Aislinn: And you can trade, you can do all the things that are normally in most farming sim games. (0:12:53) Kevin: that’s correct (0:12:55) Kevin: uh… I would (0:12:55) Aislinn: But it looks really cute! (0:12:56) Kevin: okay cs the first of all okay up (0:12:59) Kevin: the name I would imply it’s to be pixel art and it is cute (0:13:02) Kevin: uh… it is a a bit more chibi ask or or eight-bit than say uh… (0:13:05) Aislinn: Yeah. (0:13:08) Kevin: uh… stardew valley (0:13:09) Aislinn: It’s more round. (0:13:09) Kevin: uh… so you know (0:13:11) Kevin: uh… it’s a it’s different flavor (0:13:13) Kevin: uh… but there are some actually notable elements I think in here that (0:13:16) Kevin: they were talking about on first of all like you mentioned (0:13:18) Kevin: uh… sandbox as in (0:13:20) Kevin: I would say Animal Crossing New Leaf or Minecraft. (0:13:23) Aislinn: Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s really, really cool. (0:13:24) Kevin: I would say Animal Crossing New Leaf or Minecraft. (0:13:32) Aislinn: Yeah. Mm-hmm. (0:13:53) Kevin: I would say Animal Crossing New Leaf or Minecraft. (0:13:53) Aislinn: Oh, I didn’t realize that about this game too! That’s awesome! (0:14:08) Aislinn: I agree. Yeah, I like the art style. I like the kind of, I guess you could say animal (0:14:14) Aislinn: crossing aspect, but more so, more generally, the sandbox aspect of being able to, as it (0:14:20) Aislinn: says, re-sculpt the world through terraforming. I think that’s really, really cool. And honestly, (0:14:23) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, they they emphasize on the yeah, yeah, so. (0:14:25) Aislinn: any game that has animals that you can raise to, they are so cute in this game. I love (0:14:31) Aislinn: it. So, but it looks, it looks great. Like as someone, as someone has been in a stance (0:14:36) Aislinn: of like being overwhelmed constantly by (0:14:38) Aislinn: farming games. This is this is a farming game. I know. This (0:14:40) Kevin: Welcome, welcome to the show, Eastland. (0:14:45) Aislinn: is one farming game that actually does peak more (0:14:47) Aislinn: interest versus other farming games. So yeah, big props to (0:14:48) Kevin: Yeah. (0:14:51) Aislinn: them. Looks really, really cool. (0:14:53) Kevin: I have not facepalmed the one watching the trailer. (0:14:56) Kevin: So good on you. (0:14:58) Kevin: That’s a thumbs up. (0:15:00) Kevin: No, and you know what? (0:15:02) Kevin: I’m, I may jinx it, but I didn’t see any romance in there. (0:15:06) Aislinn: I’m sure there’s romance. There’s no way there’s not. There’s no way there’s not. (0:15:06) Kevin: Free free from the shackles. (0:15:08) Kevin: No, well, either way. (0:15:13) Kevin: Oh, oh, okay. (0:15:15) Kevin: Wait, hold on one second. (0:15:16) Kevin: I just want to say, okay, sorry about that. (0:15:16) Aislinn: Yeah. (0:15:18) Kevin: The jaws theme played as my puppy entered the room. (0:15:21) Aislinn: Oh, no. (0:15:21) Kevin: Um… [laughs] (0:15:23) Kevin: Um… [laughs] (0:15:25) Kevin: Okay. Alright, what’s up next? Do tell me. (0:15:28) Aislinn: All right, so the next game that I’m looking at here is Honeymancer, and it’s coming soon to Early Access. (0:15:36) Aislinn: It’s currently on March 27th. (0:15:38) Aislinn: So, yeah, or actually, yeah, that’s what it seems to look like. March 27th, Early Access, coming soon, and also another Pixel 2D-looking situation, but this is more so the tags are Indie, RPG, Pixel Graphics, Tower Defense 2D, and it looks like this is not really a farming game at all. (0:16:01) Aislinn: And when I first looked at it with the just because of the art style alone, I was like, oh, it’s another far (0:16:06) Aislinn: I’m again, I’m like, oh, wait, no, it’s not. Wait, that’s really cool. And it’s got bees and we love bees here. So (0:16:09) Kevin: Yeah (0:16:12) Kevin: Yeah, all right, so there’s a few few things going on here right first of all the premise of bear wizard (0:16:19) Kevin: That’s pretty strong already right you’re you’re setting its own bear witch excuse me (0:16:25) Kevin: You have a one you’re shooting things in combat (0:16:28) Kevin: You’re fighting off robots invading the forest with other cute neighbor animals (0:16:33) Aislinn: which the robots look so cute by the way I just again the art style I’m just like gosh I love (0:16:35) Kevin: They do (0:16:38) Aislinn: this art style it’s so cute I’m such a sucker for good art styles yeah they do it’s so cute (0:16:40) Kevin: I (0:16:41) Kevin: Yup, it is a it is a very strong art style. Absolutely. I’m again 2d pixel, but it’s a very strong one (0:16:47) Kevin: I like how even the trees kind of look like beehives. It’s a very cute little touch (0:16:53) Kevin: yep (0:16:54) Kevin: there looks like there’s (0:16:57) Kevin: Management of some kind you’re growing flowers for bees making potions. So, you know, there’s elements of cottagecore stuff (0:17:03) Kevin: But it’s not your standard you have grandpa’s farm or whatever on which is fun (0:17:09) Kevin: Special shoutouts to the as they describe it the bee dog. There’s a large bumblebee flying you around. It’s more bee than dog (0:17:17) Kevin: we the the big question which (0:17:20) Kevin: You know, we’ll have to wait is where does it land on the Cody scale of acceptability? (0:17:25) Aislinn: I know, we’ll have to stay tuned to find out, right? (0:17:28) Kevin: Is it is it is it Cheeba fight is it cartoonified enough? (0:17:34) Kevin: But I mean, it’s a pretty big bee. So I think she’s gonna be on (0:17:36) Aislinn: It is a very big B. (0:17:39) Kevin: Bigger than you. So I think I think she’s gonna be on board with this one (0:17:40) Aislinn: It really is. (0:17:44) Kevin: But there are other non giant bees that you are helping raise. So that’s fun (0:17:49) Kevin: You know, it’s hard to tell how deep they’re going into it and unexpected to be (0:17:53) Kevin: You know for on be sim but but it looks good enough. It goes into the bear honey (0:17:59) Aislinn: Yeah, no, it looks it looks really cute. It’s hard to get much information based off of just (0:17:59) Kevin: So yeah (0:18:03) Aislinn: the Steam page, but like it looks generally really cute. We’ll see you soon in early access. (0:18:04) Kevin: Yeah (0:18:06) Kevin: Yeah (0:18:09) Aislinn: If this is your type of gameplay, I think it’s worth checking out because it just the (0:18:09) Kevin: March 27th (0:18:13) Kevin: Yeah (0:18:13) Aislinn: colors alone are like really pretty too. Yeah, I love that. Uh-huh. Yeah, they feel very anime. (0:18:15) Kevin: The colors are very well done (0:18:16) Kevin: I like the expressions on the characters and the little portraits when they’re speaking they get exaggerated in cartoonish. That’s that’s (0:18:24) Kevin: Yeah. Yeah, it’s it’s fantastic (0:18:26) Kevin: I’m right because I think that’s probably a big criticism (0:18:30) Kevin: You have a lot of these cottage cores like the this character portraits are somewhat muted a lot of times (0:18:35) Kevin: I would say this one’s going for the anime eyes and everything (0:18:39) Aislinn: Yeah, I like it. I really do like it (0:18:39) Kevin: It’s great. I have one big criticism against it though (0:18:45) Kevin: And it’s nothing the game itself done, but unfortunately the title of honeymancer actually (0:18:45) Aislinn: Oh, okay (0:18:52) Kevin: I think it’s honey wizard has already been claimed by Winnie the Pooh in the Lorkana (0:18:57) Kevin: Card game have you okay? I posted it in the thread if you’ll take a look Aislin (0:19:01) Aislinn: Let me see. (0:19:02) Kevin: Lorkana the Disney TCG came out with a card called Winnie the Pooh honey wizard and (0:19:03) Aislinn: Oh my gosh, I’ve never, (0:19:07) Aislinn: I’ve never seen Winnie the Pooh look so magical. (0:19:09) Kevin: It’s pretty amazing. It’s (0:19:12) Kevin: Possibly the best card. They’ve ever come out with and so (0:19:15) Kevin: you know you do a lot of great things honeyman sir, but (0:19:16) Aislinn: Was that a pun? (0:19:20) Kevin: You got a tall tall bar or tall bear. I guess to cross to overcome there (0:19:24) Aislinn: What was that a pun though? Is that possibly you get it the pun because you said possibly possibly (0:19:28) Kevin: Do what oh (0:19:31) Kevin: Yes, yes (0:19:35) Kevin: Okay, I guess all right there all right beautiful (0:19:37) Aislinn: We got it we got we got there one way or another we got there (0:19:39) Kevin: I like this shot of the raccoon screaming in the trailer just eyes fisheyes in different directions with full vertical mouth. It’s great (0:19:52) Kevin: Yeah, all right (0:19:55) Kevin: What a speaking of moods. What do we actually I do have a mood. I don’t know what’s next. What’s next? (0:19:58) Aislinn: The next game is the next game is Space Sprouts, an exploration puzzle physics simulation 2D (0:20:01) Kevin: No, it’s (0:20:09) Aislinn: game are the tags, and it does primarily look like it’s a puzzle game where you bend the (0:20:17) Aislinn: rule of physics, experiment with unusual gadgets, and toss everything around. (0:20:23) Aislinn: I think out of the three games that we discussed so far, I think this game feels mostly up (0:20:28) Aislinn: because I’m always down for a good puzzle game, and the fact that there is physics in this too (0:20:31) Kevin: Uh huh. Yeah, in a good way. Yeah, that that that is a very specific alliterative title (0:20:33) Aislinn: really also intrigues me. It looks like it also kind of infuriates me, but I’m kind of, (0:20:38) Aislinn: oh perfect, cozy cosmic chaos feels like the perfect description for this game. (0:20:47) Kevin: and it works. Right, so space is the key thing right here, right? We’re not we’re managing (0:20:52) Kevin: a space station. And so you’re going to have gravity physics and light bending and all (0:20:56) Kevin: sorts of nonsense. There’s all in the trailer, you see the water floating around, you have (0:21:01) Kevin: a push it or whatever. So expect space shenanigans. Um, that sounds kind of cute. Like a very muted (0:21:09) Kevin: storybook looking design for these characters. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, it is a very nice looking (0:21:12) Aislinn: Yeah, I like the colors. (0:21:15) Aislinn: I’m all about the colors of all of these games so far. (0:21:18) Aislinn: All of these games look really, really nice. (0:21:21) Kevin: game. Demo out now if you are curious and full release date in just a little over a (0:21:28) Kevin: for a week on March 31st. (0:21:30) Aislinn: Almost there! (0:21:32) Kevin: Yup, so, uh, good on you space sprouts. (0:21:35) Kevin: Um, yeah, I’m sure some people hint, hint on the show. (0:21:39) Kevin: Might like, I don’t, I, I have no idea who, but I feel like somebody (0:21:42) Aislinn: I mean, I like it, I’m interested in it. (0:21:43) Kevin: on the show will want to play. (0:21:48) Kevin: Well, oh, there we, okay. (0:21:49) Kevin: That’s one down. (0:21:50) Kevin: Let’s, let’s get another, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll see. (0:21:53) Aislinn: I might be infuriated, I don’t know, but I’m also like, it’s a good type of infuriating (0:21:57) Kevin: Well, yeah, and that’s fine. (0:21:57) Aislinn: and that’s what this game looks like, so I’m into it. (0:22:01) Kevin: I’ve had the bad period on the show many, many times, possibly more than not. (0:22:07) Aislinn: It’d really be that way. (0:22:11) Kevin: All right, next up. (0:22:12) Kevin: Ooh, this is a good one. (0:22:14) Aislinn: You take the floor. (0:22:14) Kevin: I think they’d announced it. (0:22:16) Kevin: Yeah, I think they announced it during the game awards or no. (0:22:20) Kevin: Was that the jungle DLC? (0:22:21) Kevin: I feel like this was announced at some point, but if not, we got a full, (0:22:25) Kevin: uh, a more proper breakdown of Dave, the diver DLC can’t. (0:22:31) Kevin: Stop won’t stop. (0:22:32) Kevin: I mean, I mean, they’re made by the maple story desk, so they have (0:22:35) Kevin: the money to actually never stop. (0:22:37) Aislinn: Just keep going. (0:22:37) Kevin: Um, yeah, basically. (0:22:41) Kevin: Um, and so it is a, not that it is the second, um, crossover DLC this time (0:22:46) Kevin: with the like a dragon series, AKA previously known as the Yakuza series. (0:22:51) Kevin: Um, you are teaming up with itchy bond, um, and doing all sorts of shenanigans. (0:22:57) Kevin: Are you familiar with like a dragon at all? (0:22:59) Aislinn: I am like not I’ve never played the games, but like I am familiar and I remember when I heard about this (0:23:05) Aislinn: Because I heard about this like a while ago. I don’t remember how long it was long ago. It was but I was like, what? (0:23:10) Kevin: Yeah (0:23:10) Aislinn: I was like, how did the two these two worlds collide? I need to know how these two worlds collided. This is so cool (0:23:15) Kevin: Well (0:23:19) Kevin: It is and at the same time that feels appropriate for both franchises how on earth did this happen (0:23:25) Kevin: Um, I have never played one myself, but I am also familiar very familiar with the series (0:23:30) Kevin: so introduced we have (0:23:33) Kevin: Included in all these features. We have a genuine 2d beat ’em up side scroller where you can play as Ichiban and (0:23:41) Kevin: Cobra yeah, I think it plays Cobra Wow Oh Cobra’s playable. I didn’t catch that. That’s so cool (0:23:47) Kevin: There is a karaoke minigame because if nothing else what if that was included how could this be called like a dragon? (0:23:56) Kevin: We have let’s see what else here (0:23:59) Kevin: We’ve got we got several characters from the like a dragon series as staff members for your restaurant. It’s fun (0:24:07) Aislinn: I like that there seems to be the karaoke minigame. I feel like that fear feels very, like, Yakuza-esque. (0:24:08) Kevin: Ah, junk. (0:24:11) Kevin: Yeah. (0:24:15) Kevin: Oh, yeah, it is. (0:24:17) Kevin: Um, yeah, that land that launches, uh, April 10th, not terribly far away, about two weeks away. (0:24:26) Kevin: Um, so there, there will probably be a return to David diver sometime in the future. (0:24:32) Kevin: Uh, because I’m playing this. (0:24:34) Kevin: Absolutely. (0:24:36) Kevin: Um, that looks great. (0:24:36) Aislinn: It looks great, it really does look great. (0:24:40) Kevin: So I keep an eye out and then the jungle DLC is still being worked on and coming in the future. (0:24:45) Kevin: So again, can’t stop, won’t stop. (0:24:49) Kevin: Um, Dave keeps diving and doing everyone’s work. (0:24:52) Kevin: Um, all right, let’s see next up. (0:24:55) Kevin: Another series that has not yet stopped as of now. (0:24:58) Kevin: Uh, we’ve got story of seasons or I guess this one is like harvest moon proper because it’s, it’s in Japanese as of now, um, a harvest moon G mode game. (0:25:10) Kevin: Um, it, it is a port of a phone game from, what was it like 2008, I think on the harvest moon series. (0:25:16) Aislinn: Yes, it says 2008 on the Steam page, and yeah, it’s a port coming to Steam, but… (0:25:21) Kevin: Yup. (0:25:22) Kevin: Yup. (0:25:23) Kevin: So it’s a early mobile farming game and you know, that’s, that’s cool. (0:25:27) Kevin: You can see it, you can feel it kind of GBA S graphics, um, which is fun and cute. (0:25:34) Kevin: Um, you know, too bad it’s all in Japanese. (0:25:36) Aislinn: I, you know, cause I’ve been telling myself for the past like couple weeks, like I really (0:25:36) Kevin: So, this one I won’t be playing, probably. (0:25:45) Aislinn: should actively get back into learning Japanese. Cause I was learning Japanese at one point (0:25:50) Aislinn: when I was in like first grade and then I fell off cause I was a stubborn kid, long (0:25:54) Kevin: Hmm. Okay. (laughs) (0:25:55) Aislinn: story short, but like, I don’t know. Maybe if I get back into actually learning properly, (0:26:00) Aislinn: maybe I’ll pick up this game. It looks cute, but I don’t know anything about it because (0:26:02) Kevin: yeah it does (0:26:06) Kevin: yeah we can’t read a thing on it we just (0:26:10) Kevin: it’s all I can do is point and says that looks like a harvest moon game for a (0:26:14) Aislinn: I was like, “That’s a cow! That’s chicken! That’s all I’ve got!” (0:26:14) Kevin: phone (0:26:18) Kevin: there are anime pretty people that you can probably romance (0:26:22) Kevin: yeah uh… (0:26:24) Kevin: but uh… (0:26:26) Kevin: yeah uh… releasing on steam do we have a date for that (0:26:29) Kevin: And it’s coming soon. Yeah. (0:26:30) Aislinn: As of now, we do not have a date, but regardless, if you are interested in this and you can (0:26:33) Kevin: But yeah, we, yeah. (0:26:36) Aislinn: read Japanese, even if you can’t read Japanese and you are interested in it, it is coming soon! (0:26:41) Kevin: Oh man, go back to those early 2000s when you have the fan translation from GameFacts. (0:26:47) Kevin: Good times. (0:26:50) Kevin: But but yeah, you know, one thing to note, this is a second port that they’ve done in the series, (0:26:55) Kevin: which is interesting to me, suggesting that the first one was successful enough to warrant it. (0:27:00) Aislinn: I guess so. (0:27:01) Kevin: That’s pretty cool. (0:27:02) Aislinn: I’m glad. (0:27:02) Kevin: Yeah, I know nothing either. I should’ve picked up Japanese. I’m too big of a weeb not to. (0:27:03) Aislinn: I’m glad for the people that do care about this. (0:27:05) Aislinn: I know nothing about it, but I am happy for those that care about it. (0:27:12) Kevin: I mean, I know some Japanese words. I want to make them echo the journey one day, but in due time I guess. (0:27:20) Kevin: Alright, let’s see here. Next up we’ve got info on cattle country. Yes, not Kent County. Country bigger than that. (0:27:30) Kevin: We have got (0:27:33) Kevin: They say so what interesting thing (0:27:37) Kevin: The thing probably the biggest note is, you know, they’re talking about some features and whatnot, but combat is totally optional (0:27:44) Kevin: Which is kind of wild to see in these games right cuz (0:27:48) Kevin: You know most cottagecore games following the stardew template (0:27:53) Kevin: How you know have some kind of? (0:27:56) Kevin: combat stuck in there, right (0:27:58) Kevin: And it’s you know, just because it’s optional. It’s not bad here. I’m looking that you got bows and arrows (0:28:02) Kevin: And guns and all sorts of stuff (0:28:05) Kevin: But the fact that it’s optional and they’re advertising that that’s uh, that’s pretty fun (0:28:10) Aislinn: I think it’s great yeah I i don’t know why that would put that would it’s a great it’s (0:28:15) Aislinn: it’s a great thing honestly like I have nothing else to say besides like this is something that (0:28:19) Aislinn: is a great feature because if you want to do it you can do it if you don’t want to (0:28:22) Aislinn: you just ignore it’s a win-win (0:28:24) Kevin: Yup. Yup. This is another game where it looks like you can partner up with some of your neighbors or villagers and whatnot, so that’s, that’s fun. (0:28:32) Kevin: There’s, yeah, I think we’ve talked about it before, but there’s, if you look at the trailer, there’s square dancing. They’re playing a nice Western medley song. (0:28:40) Kevin: Um, you’re, it’s very, how, it’s, it’s HANU. Um, that’s what it is. We got state coaches, we got trains, all the good stuff. (0:28:40) Aislinn: Very, it’s definitely very howdy partner. (0:28:52) Kevin: Um, they’re good at ge– (0:28:54) Kevin: Hey, howdy, hey, get your snake in your boot and keep an eye out for cattle count–country. (0:28:57) Aislinn: I mean, there’s even a character named Bandit, so take that as you will. (0:29:00) Kevin: Um, again, I don’t– (0:29:02) Kevin: Yeah, there you go! Eyes required. (0:29:07) Kevin: Alright, next up, a new game, we’ve got, uh, okay. (0:29:10) Kevin: So I started looking at this, and, you know, pre-recording, you know, going over, preparing, whatnot. (0:29:15) Kevin: And I stopped because I just kept saying, “What is this?” I needed to– (0:29:20) Kevin: to put some of that energy into the recording. (0:29:24) Kevin: We are looking at a game called “Fungi’s Swarm.” (0:29:24) Aislinn: It’s so silly. (0:29:28) Kevin: Um, so, you know, G-U-Y-S, “Sworn.” (0:29:32) Kevin: Um, it is a bullet hell game. (0:29:36) Kevin: Um, it is their first dev, uh, like, dev blog. (0:29:41) Kevin: Um, and they are showing it’s– (0:29:44) Kevin: Kinda what the whole thing, right? It is a cartoony, survivor bullet hell, where you become a fungi, (0:29:49) Kevin: wield forest-crafted weapons and unleash bonkers powers against the fire killer. (0:29:54) Kevin: So you there’s a lot going on here. There’s a mushroom guy running around. There’s pumpkin vegetable monsters and bears and like vegetables. I don’t an apple bear and an apple. (0:30:08) Aislinn: There’s a there’s an easter egg for from Coral Island of a waterfowl and it’s the cutest thing I’ve ever seen (0:30:14) Kevin: What I didn’t see that’s incredible. That’s incredible. (0:30:20) Kevin: incredible you’re running around is your little fungus guy with (0:30:24) Kevin: giant watermelon acts like the waterman slice is bigger than you are (0:30:27) Kevin: it’s enormous there’s a great blaster gun thing you’ve got the powers like oh (0:30:34) Kevin: oh yeah that’s uh this is some good stuff there’s what is going on with this (0:30:40) Kevin: apple teeny it’s a half-eaten apple with a warm a very buff warm popping out of (0:30:45) Kevin: it you know there’s runs it’s oh it’s colorful it’s wacky it’s cartoony it’s (0:30:54) Kevin: magnificent I don’t what are these little for sanctuary pals you got like (0:30:58) Kevin: buzz balls with fruit stems there’s all block (0:31:00) Aislinn: I have no, not a single clue, but it looks like, it looks cute and fun, cozy and fun. (0:31:08) Kevin: yep yep (0:31:08) Aislinn: It looks like it’s a good balance of that, I feel like. (0:31:11) Aislinn: I feel like it does somehow fit into the Cottagecore game. (0:31:14) Aislinn: It just, it just somehow does fit, yes it is like a bullet hell game, but it still feels, (0:31:20) Aislinn: it feels like it’s going to be accessible enough to fall into the category of Cottagecore. (0:31:20) Kevin: Oh, yeah for sure. Um, it’s certainly caught my eye (0:31:27) Kevin: Obviously, we’re gonna be a ways off from this bad boy coming out, but I’m definitely keeping my out that is again fun guys swarm (0:31:35) Kevin: They’re good on you a lot of good news stories this week. Nothing. Nothing. Give me any heartache or anything (0:31:38) Aislinn: Honestly, yeah. (0:31:42) Kevin: That’s exciting stuff. Oh (0:31:45) Kevin: All right, and with that let’s talk about some let’s move on to something else exciting. Let’s talk about (0:31:50) Aislinn: Yeah. Oh my gosh. (0:31:50) Kevin: Wonder stuff, huh? (0:31:53) Kevin: Okay, so again, this is the tea shop simulator created by the Stanley parable dev team (0:32:01) Kevin: If you haven’t played Stanley parable (0:32:04) Kevin: You might want to pause go listen because I think we need to talk about it because that’s important for context (0:32:09) Kevin: and (0:32:10) Kevin: So important that acelin has actually played Stanley parable prior to the gay wonder stuff in preparation (0:32:17) Kevin: So let’s hear some thoughts (0:32:17) Aislinn: I did. Yeah, so I, yeah, once I found out that this game was being created by the people (0:32:25) Aislinn: that made Stanley Parable, I very much was like, I’ve always wanted to play Stanley Parable, (0:32:31) Aislinn: but I put that way up on my, I moved that way up for my backlog, because I knew and (0:32:35) Kevin: Uh-huh (0:32:37) Aislinn: I’ve heard great things about this game, which I think everyone knows about. If you haven’t (0:32:41) Aislinn: played the game, you still know the premise of the game and what the game is all about. (0:32:43) Kevin: John (0:32:44) Kevin: Yep for for (0:32:45) Aislinn: And I was very curious to check it out. (0:32:46) Kevin: Yeah for clarity. I have not played it myself, but as you said, I am very familiar (0:32:50) Kevin: I know all the secrets. I don’t feel free to let out whatever you want. Um, you just listener assume we’re spoiling whatever. Okay, it’s (0:32:53) Aislinn: Yeah, I played as many, spoiler warning for Stanley Parable, a very long time. (0:32:59) Kevin: Yes game that’s been out how long now (0:33:04) Aislinn: But the thing is, before I played Stanley Parable, I knew it was a strange game or a (0:33:08) Aislinn: very interesting game that a lot of people liked, but I didn’t know what the premise (0:33:11) Aislinn: of the game was. (0:33:12) Aislinn: So I went in pretty blind and it was an experience for sure. (0:33:17) Aislinn: It took me a while to get into because I was like, “What is happening?” (0:33:21) Kevin: Ha ha ha ha! (0:33:23) Aislinn: As I continued, I was like, “Okay, I’m starting to get it. (0:33:26) Aislinn: I’m starting to understand.” (0:33:27) Aislinn: And it was a very, very fun and fascinating and silly game. (0:33:33) Aislinn: And I did pretty much almost all of the endings except the ones like the, what was it, like (0:33:40) Aislinn: the baby one with like the dog and like the, you have to like stand up. (0:33:42) Kevin: Yeah, that’s correct. (0:33:44) Aislinn: You know that one, that one ending, we have to like be in the game for like three hours (0:33:47) Aislinn: or something. (0:33:49) Aislinn: I refused to do that one. (0:33:49) Kevin: Yeah, that’s correct. (0:33:50) Aislinn: I just watched it on YouTube. (0:33:51) Aislinn: I was like, “There’s no way I’m doing this.” (0:33:54) Aislinn: But just like that absurdity and like that confusion, I’m just like, “Yeah, no. (0:33:59) Aislinn: Okay. (0:33:59) Aislinn: I understand why people like this game now. (0:34:01) Aislinn: Like I have not experienced this in a game in a very, very, very long time.” (0:34:05) Aislinn: And it just took twists and turns and I was like, “Huh.” (0:34:09) Aislinn: And I was happy that I got to experience that before playing this game. (0:34:13) Aislinn: Cause I was curious if they were going to do things in this game that also (0:34:16) Aislinn: kind of caught me off guard and surprised me and that definitely did happen. (0:34:18) Kevin: All right, yep. (0:34:23) Aislinn: As a general notice, we’re not going to spoil like main plots of the game. (0:34:30) Aislinn: We may talk about a little bit of hint towards a little couple of things here (0:34:33) Aislinn: and there, but we’ll try our best to not spoil the game because both of us are (0:34:37) Aislinn: just about at the same point in the story and we both kind of share the sentiment (0:34:40) Aislinn: that we want y’all to check out the game and experience the not absurdity, but (0:34:47) Aislinn: just like the twists and turns of the game that also surprised me. (0:34:49) Kevin: Yep. (0:34:53) Aislinn: I was playing Wanderstop as I continued into it. (0:34:55) Kevin: Uh-huh. (0:34:56) Aislinn: Like it took me a while to get into Stanley Parable. (0:34:57) Aislinn: It took me a while to get into Wanderstop. (0:34:59) Aislinn: And as I continue, I was like start, I felt the same feeling that I felt when I (0:34:59) Kevin: Yeah. (0:35:03) Aislinn: was playing Wanderstop versus when I was playing Stanley Parable, but in just (0:35:04) Kevin: So. (0:35:07) Kevin: Mm-hmm. (0:35:08) Kevin: Right. (0:35:09) Kevin: Okay, so. (0:35:11) Kevin: Again, if someone who- so, that’s all great. (0:35:13) Kevin: And I appreciate you played it, ‘cause at least one of us can speak to it, but, um… (0:35:15) Aislinn: Well, you know about it too, you know. (0:35:19) Kevin: And so. (0:35:21) Kevin: Like. (0:35:22) Kevin: Maybe I don’t fully have heard everything, but the tone of Stanley Parable is almost… (0:35:29) Kevin: It’s very absurdist, very- almost adversarial in times, right? (0:35:32) Kevin: Like the narrator is constantly fighting against you, or you’re being sent down roads that are unpleasant, or so on and so forth, right? (0:35:39) Kevin: Like, it’s an enjoyable experience and a lot of fun, don’t get me, like, clearly, but… (0:35:45) Kevin: It is a very different vibe from a Cottagecore game, right? (0:35:49) Aislinn: Yes, very much so. (0:35:49) Kevin: So, when you- (0:35:51) Kevin: Right? (0:35:52) Kevin: And so when you hear they’re doing this- a tea shop simil- and they’re, you know, outright saying it’s gonna be a cozy game, like… (0:36:00) Kevin: What am I- what am I gonna do? I’m- I’m on guard, like, you’re the Stanley Parable people. (0:36:02) Aislinn: I know! (0:36:04) Kevin: I don’t believe a word you say, I am- (0:36:06) Aislinn: It literally says on the Steam page, “From the creator of the Stanley Parable.” (0:36:11) Aislinn: It’s the first line! (0:36:11) Kevin: Yep, so. (0:36:12) Kevin: Yup. (0:36:13) Kevin: So, I’m, you know, I’m coming into Wanderstop armed with a knife, just ready to fight back whatever this game’s- (0:36:19) Kevin: he’s gonna throw at me, right? (0:36:21) Kevin: Um… (0:36:22) Kevin: And, um… (0:36:24) Kevin: Well, I mean, shocker, it’s not the Stanley Parable, right? Like, some things carry over, like, it’s quality-quality writing. (0:36:31) Kevin: Excellent writing throughout, absolutely. (0:36:33) Kevin: There are some twists and turns, but it’s- it’s not in the insane, zany Stanley Parable way, it’s- it’s all, you know, in a narrative structure that- that fits it and whatnot. (0:36:46) Kevin: Um… (0:36:47) Kevin: I can confirm. (0:36:49) Kevin: I would call this a cozy game, but it’s a cozy game that sometimes pulls out a knife on you because sometimes I’m not ready for it. (0:36:54) Aislinn: Yes. (0:36:59) Aislinn: Yes. (0:37:00) Aislinn: Yes. (0:37:02) Kevin: I’ll get to that in a second, but the point being, there’s no secret endings, there’s no crazy insane tasks. (0:37:13) Kevin: And I tried, like one of the first things I did, like when you start the game you can run back into the force. I ran into the force like ten times. (0:37:19) Kevin: I was expecting something and nothing happened. I looked it up and there’s nothing, no insane hidden things like Stanley Parable, right? (0:37:30) Kevin: There’s some stuff, but nothing just completely insane. (0:37:36) Kevin: So yeah, it’s wild to see that they’re actually playing it straight. We’re getting a “cozy game”. (0:37:44) Kevin: So with that in mind, let’s talk about the premise, because I say (0:37:49) Kevin: “cozy” but there’s a big asterisk here because it is possibly one of the most “uncozy” openings to any game ever. (0:37:52) Aislinn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. (0:37:57) Aislinn: But I loved it. I genuinely loved it. (0:37:57) Kevin: And yes, yep. So this is, and you’re not an avatar, you’re not a Stanley, a blankly avatar more or less, you are playing a character named Alta. (0:38:09) Kevin: She is a fighter, a warrior, goes into tournaments. The story starts with her description of her wanting to be the best. (0:38:18) Kevin: she’s undefeated for like three. (0:38:19) Kevin: and she just totally off her game so what does she do she seeks out help she (0:38:21) Aislinn: Very, very long time, but yeah. (0:38:45) Kevin: He seeks out Master Winters, a legendary warrior. (0:38:49) Kevin: Who she thinks can help her get a groove back. (0:38:52) Kevin: So, Alta runs through the forest, but then at some point, her body starts to fail her. (0:38:59) Kevin: She collapses, and she wakes up in this clearing in the forest, in front of a tea shop called “Wanderstup”. (0:39:06) Kevin: She meets the proprietor, a man named Boro, who is a fantastic… (0:39:10) Aislinn: Oh, he’s wonderful. I love him. (0:39:13) Kevin: He is the complete, I would say foil, like opposite foil to Alta. (0:39:16) Aislinn: Yeah. (0:39:17) Kevin: She is the most chills (0:39:19) Kevin: Zen just goes with the flow kind of guy. He’s happy. Good luck. He always cracking jokes and whatnot. Um (0:39:24) Aislinn: So sweet (0:39:26) Kevin: He’s a wonderful man. Um, he is the one who rescued Alta (0:39:30) Kevin: explains where she is and (0:39:33) Kevin: and basically suggests for her to take a break because (0:39:38) Kevin: One of the first thing she does is try to pick her her sword and she can’t (0:39:41) Kevin: Why meanwhile borrow can pick it up. No problem. And it’s just something (0:39:46) Kevin: Something going on with Arthur. She can’t fight. She can’t… (0:39:49) Kevin: She can’t lift her. (0:39:50) Kevin: if you run back into the forest like I did you just collapse and are sent back to the clearing so (0:39:54) Aislinn: I did too for context. I also did the same thing as you, because I was like, I just need to know. (0:39:57) Kevin: Yeah (0:39:59) Kevin: Yeah, it’s though it would be that (0:40:00) Aislinn: Especially again, coming off of Stanley Parable, I was like, I just need to know. (0:40:02) Kevin: it (0:40:04) Kevin: It would be the most Stanley peril thing in the world right the run out you get it ending (0:40:08) Kevin: like absolutely, so (0:40:10) Kevin: So yeah, so that um so with you know after repeated attempts if you do or you just give up (0:40:17) Kevin: Boro suggests to Ulta to just stay there (0:40:20) Kevin: and the tea shop to help out to try to rest and recover (0:40:23) Kevin: because she’s clearly suffering from over exhaustion. (0:40:27) Kevin: And and so that and already at this very 10 minute initial premise, (0:40:33) Kevin: the game is is is going at me like directly targeting me bullseye because. (0:40:39) Kevin: So, OK, you are a hard worker. (0:40:42) Kevin: You probably relate to this. (0:40:44) Kevin: I think a lot of people from our generation, how we were raised, like, (0:40:48) Kevin: you know, we a lot of people, (0:40:50) Kevin: we’re raising the very drive, like driven generation, right? (0:40:54) Kevin: Work hard, work hard, succeed, go to the next thing, right? (0:40:56) Aislinn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. (0:40:57) Kevin: Be the top, be first in class, right? (0:40:59) Kevin: And and I personally like my I was in the warrior, (0:41:02) Kevin: but like I graduated salutatorian in high school. (0:41:05) Kevin: Like my academic pursuits were like everything to me. (0:41:08) Aislinn: Mm-hmm. (0:41:10) Kevin: So I can relate to that very much so. (0:41:13) Kevin: And then there comes a point when life just punches you in the face (0:41:17) Kevin: And you, you know, you just, you’re, you’re knocked out a few. (0:41:20) Kevin: Notches. So I get this and I’m already very not comfortable with how personal this story has gotten. (0:41:26) Aislinn: Yeah, yeah, I really felt the anger that Alta was feeling in the beginning, not to the fullest extent, because I’m just generally not a very like angry person. But like, what, like the underlying emotions of that anger, I genuinely felt because I definitely also feel that in the sense that as a person that considers myself very hardworking as well, to be working so hard, and then to be knocked down like that, it really, really, really sucks. I get that. (0:41:34) Kevin: Yeah. Right. (0:41:54) Kevin: Yep (0:41:56) Aislinn: I definitely really felt for her right off the bat. Like immediately, I was like, Oh, this is one of those games. Oh, no, my heart. I was like, Oh, no, they really did. (0:42:00) Kevin: Yeah (0:42:04) Kevin: Yup (0:42:10) Kevin: Yup, yup. Yup. They have set the stage (0:42:15) Kevin: and and and again in right there in contrast with Boro a wonderful truly cozy character and then also the most (0:42:24) Kevin: I have possibly seen in a cottage core game (0:42:28) Kevin: But (0:42:30) Kevin: Like for me that one of the bits that really resonated is just running through the forest right getting back up going back (0:42:36) Kevin: Like I relate to that very much so to to maybe not on well (0:42:42) Kevin: Okay, I’ll say someone on the healthy levels, but or it’s let’s say it’s affected me right like I’ve definitely (0:42:47) Aislinn: We all go through it. We’re human. We all go through it. (0:42:48) Kevin: Right, right. Yeah (0:42:51) Kevin: Um, and so being forced to stop. (0:42:54) Kevin: That out of your control, that’s something I wouldn’t handle. (0:42:57) Kevin: Well, I&am

Summary This episode of “Coping” discusses the concept of courage and introduces seven daily acts of courage as outlined by Robert Staub in his TED Talk. Kevin and Kathy engage in a thoughtful dialogue exploring each of the seven acts and share personal experiences and insights on how these acts manifest in their lives as well as the importance of practicing courage daily. At the end, you'll be given the opportunity to rate yourself on each act of courage to determine your overall 'courage quotient'. Kevin Oh, hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of “Coping”. Kathy Yes, welcome back, everyone. Today, we want to continue our discussion on courage that we started our last podcast. And I have a question for you, Kevin: would you consider yourself a courageous person? Kevin Well, based on our last podcast episode conversation, I've been rethinking my definition of courage, the models and myths that I've developed over the years. I would say that I am a risk taker. I like to take risks, I like that feeling of taking a leap of faith, and then that leap being met with some success or improvement. So I don't know if I would say I'm courageous, but I definitely am open to taking calculated risks. And what about you? Do you consider yourself to be a courageous person? Kathy I think the same applies to if I consider myself to be a creative person. The answer is traditionally no. But I think that if I look into my life, I see lots of acts of courage and risk-taking. So others would say that about me. So I think this discussion today is really going to widen and round out our view of what courage looks like. So let's get started. Kathy So as you all know, in a recent spring retreat, I shared about this topic of courage. And I also introduced executive leadership coach speaker Robert Staub, who did a 2016 TED Talk called Daily Acts of Courage. And there he talks about how we can practice small acts every day to strengthen the courage of our hearts. It's such an interesting concept. And there are actually seven everyday acts of courage we can all engage in every single day to build up our courage. Kathy So the first act of courage is the courage to dream and express it. Do you have visions, goals, and dreams, Kevin? How's that for you? Kevin Yes, ever since a young age, I was a dreamer, had big plans for my life, envisioned my goals and went after them. I would say I erred on the side of dreaming and didn't always have a plan to accomplish those dreams and goals. In our relationship, I'm definitely the dreamer, but you're the person that helps make those dreams and goals become a reality. So that's why I think we partner well together. What about you? How do you express your dreaming and goal setting in your life, knowing that you're a very practical person? Kathy So I would say, and I often say to students, it's okay not to be a dreamer, not to have a dream, but what happens though is that we do have to have a plan for our lives moving forward. And if you look into my life, you see lots of dreaming, lots of ideas being carried out. There's two sources. We have to tap into the sources of where our dreaming can come from. For me, it has been my faith, where I actively am listening. That would be the number one source. And the second place is for the needs of those people I serve, I'm always dreaming for them. And that is how the dream comes true for me. I personally still to this day don't have any dreams, but if I dream for those that I'm helping and serving, there's lots. And I can then take steps toward that, courageous steps towards that. So it's very untraditional. Kevin Yeah, and I think that that leads us to the second act of courage, which is the courage to see current reality. This is something that I see you do particularly well, especially for the students that you work with. Do you have the ability to see the truth and not have blinders on? How do you have that unique and innate ability to see current reality? How do you do that? Kathy This is a really hard one, especially in light of how difficult our experiences are, the world around us, the reality, the harsh reality that we all are living in right now. I think first of all is that the ability to see reality is to admit truth to yourself, to be open to truth. I think it's a gift. I think discernment is a gift that we are given. So I've had that from a young age, the gift to see things as they are. But that doesn't mean that I wanted to always step into that. There was a period of time in my life where I shut my eyes to the harsh reality and I lived in a fantasy world and a dream-like state of like, oh, everyone's helpful, everyone's nice, everyone has my best interest at heart. Kathy I don't believe that any longer, sadly. But I know that now we live in a broken world, but we're here to help redeem the broken places. So that helps me to embrace the truth of things because only when we can see broken things as they are can we actually move in to try and come alongside to help fix, support, et cetera. Kevin Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Kathy And what about you? Do you feel like you have the ability to see truth without the blinders on? Kevin I've had to learn how to do this. I think the practice of seeing current reality and accepting it and not getting lost in the dream world like you said, is a practice I've developed in my work as a chaplain with other people, especially those who are sick and in pain in the hospital, getting new diagnoses. There's a sacredness and the ability to be present to somebody in their story and in their pain and not try to silver line their difficult and challenging experience. And so to support somebody who is struggling is the ability to see them and their pain and not trying to fix it. So I've, I've practiced that quite a lot in my work and gotten pretty good at it. Even though it doesn't come as naturally to me. Kathy Yes. To sit in the present reality with them, which is very bleak at times. Kevin Right. Right. Kathy And you know, that leads us to the third act of courage, the courage to confront. You know, truth has a lot to do with courage. So first we're talking about the truth of acknowledging reality. And then the second part is the courage to confront. And this one, as we know, is especially difficult. One I've had to work on over the years to be able to not only see the truth, but then confront it when necessary. I would say that I'm okay at doing it. I just know it's part of leadership now. And it's just one of those things, skills that you can have. It doesn't ever make it any easier, I would say, but I do have that skill now in my tool bag, but it's still really hard. How about you? Kevin Yeah, I think that when I think about confrontation it makes me a little bit nervous. I don't like hurting other people's feelings. I care way too much about what people think about me, how they perceive me, and I want everybody to like me. And so confrontation is a hard practice when you care a lot about those things and for me a little bit too much about those things. But I've learned in my life that the most meaningful relationships, the most meaningful experiences, are the ones where I'm willing to speak the truth, to tell the truth to somebody, to endure confrontation, and to face things head-on. And so I don't like to be the one to initiate the confrontation, but if somebody has something they want to tell me about that I've done, something that I did or said and wasn't aware of, I want somebody to point it out to me because I don't want to be, you know, hurting other people's feelings or to be doing something that I haven't given a lot of thought to so, yeah, confrontation is hard, but I've I've learned that there can be some good that comes from healthy confrontation. Kathy Yes, that's actually the fourth act of courage that you're talking about. So the third one is the courage to confront and the fourth is the courage to be confronted. Kevin Yeah, I think I find this one to be much easier for me. What about for you? How do you feel about confronting and being confronted? Kathy Yeah, so again, I think both these areas have had to work on a lot as a two on the Enneagram -- helper -- I didn't like other people's perception of me and that was very hard. I was very sensitive as a young child to criticism, to people saying things. As I grew older I began to understand the value of standing up for truth. I am an advocate. So being able to confront others, but then also having to be confronted. It works both sides of the coin -- If we can confront we have to be able to be confronted. So it's hard But I would say again, it's something that I'm used to doing fairly often. I had someone do it this week about an experience that they had in one of our programs and they're like, "Oh, sorry to tell you this" and I was like, "No tell me. I really do want to hear because I desperately want to improve and for us to get better." Kevin Yeah, and that leaves us perfectly into our fifth act of courage and that's the courage to learn and to grow. And so like you just said, we're open to confrontation because you and I both share a value of always learning and always growing, being open to new ways of seeing things, new perspectives. We want to know those hard truths so that we can improve all of the ways of being in the world. Have you always been the kind of person courageous enough to always want to learn and grow? Kathy No, I'm not a risky person. I don't like change. I don't like risks. I don't like things changing, no. And I think that's surprising for people who see the outer view of me, because they're like, "You're always changing. You're always pivoting." And I'm like, yes, but I had to, again, step into that. And for me, it is faith. That's the core of it, that if I feel like it's a faith move, then I can step into learning and growing, because I know that my faith is empowering me and those around me. Kevin Yeah. It's so interesting to hear you say that you're not the kind of person that likes change and risk. I know that to be true about you, but I also see it as somebody that does want to always learn and always wants to grow and is always taking in new information, new perspectives and so I wonder if you could say a little bit more about how you wrestle with that tension in your own life. Kathy Yeah, I was gonna say that just like we talked in our last podcast about fear and courage existing in the same moment -- Is this the same, right? It's okay to not like risks. It's okay to not like change but know that all of the change and the growth and dreaming is necessary to move us forward to higher versions of ourselves, our callings our service and so if you're not wanting to do that. That's okay. I don't think I want to do it either. I would rather just stay home all day and watch my favorite Netflix shows and not take risks and not move forward. Yeah, like we all -- I want everyone to understand. like even people like us that you all see that are doing that, I personally, it's not my favorite. But again, it's about in the end you have to determine what kind of life do you want for yourself? If it's a life of stagnation or a life of growth and a life of growth involves work, investment, constant sowing and discipline. So whatever life you want, you know, if you want to live a courageous life, you have to put the work into it. So that's just the bottom line. You don't have to like it. I don't necessarily like it all the time, but I know that it's necessary. That's where the tension exists. Kevin So what's number six? What's the sixth act of courage? Kathy So you already mentioned this one, but this is one that's I think is really interesting. Staub says that the sixth act of courage -- courage is the ability to be vulnerable with others and living the truth of your story and also asking for help, being able to ask for help. You shared a little bit earlier about the vulnerable piece. What about you? Kevin Yeah, I love the correlation between living your truth but also asking for help. I have learned over the years that vulnerability comes naturally to those who have had a lot of hardship and challenges in their life. And so that pain is very present to me in all of my experiences, even when I'm having my most joyous moments, that sadness is lingering right there. When I'm sitting with people in their pain, I'm feeling my own resonance with that pain that they've had because of my own history of pain and loss. And so I think vulnerability is that ability to tap into my own experiences of pain and express some compassion for people who are experiencing that themselves. But true vulnerability is not suspended on its own. Kevin And so true vulnerability is coupled with good systems of support. When I'm just vulnerable, I'm just feeling pain and feeling the person's pain that I'm with. But the ability to show up courageously and to be vulnerable with somebody is recognizing that, yes, I do have my pain, but I'm also walking down a pathway of healing. And because I know that healing from that pain is possible, I can convey that to the person that I'm with. So vulnerability is not just a feeling. The courage of vulnerability is asking for help and having systems of support in place to support my pain so that I can support others who are in pain as well. Kathy It's interesting that you're talking about vulnerability isn't a feeling, it's an action because that leads us to the seventh act of courage, which is the courage to act. In the end, courage is not a word, it's not a feeling, it's not a label, it's an action. So if you have practiced the ability to step up and follow through in your life, then this is what he says: the seventh act of courage is the courage to act. Kevin And I love how each of the acts of courage build on one another and lead to action themselves. When we think about courageous people and how they're brave enough to make change in their lives, to take those leaps of faith, we can see it's not just one isolated decision, it's a series of decisions, a series of acts, if you will, that lead to even more action in their life. Kathy Yes, I love that he's built this bridge of courage for us in these seven acts, and they're so practical. I just have loved learning about this. And to sum up basically what we've done today, one of the quotes he says, he teaches, "small daily acts of courage can develop the cardiovascular system of your soul". Small daily acts of courage can develop the cardiovascular system of your soul. So I wonder today, how is your soul doing with regards to courage? We thought we would help you figure out your courage quotient today. Kathy We're going to review the seven acts. And what I would like you to do now, if you'd like to join us, you would grab a piece of paper. I'll let you do that. While you're grabbing your piece of paper, you want to number from one to seven. The one to seven is going to represent the seven daily acts of courage that we just talked about. So you're numbering your paper one to seven and then here's what we're going to do. When we talk about each act, I want you to think about on a scale of one to seven, one being the weakest, seven being the strongest, you're going to rate yourself to find your courage quotient. Kevin Number one, do you have vision, goals, and dreams? Then you may have the first act of courage, the courage to dream and to express it. Kathy So go ahead and rate yourself on the courage to dream. Kevin Number two, do you have the ability to see truth and not have blinders on? Then you may have the second act of courage, the courage to see reality. Kathy Rate yourself from one to seven on the ability to see truth. Kevin Number three, do you have the ability to speak up, speak truth to power and confront? Perhaps you have the third act of courage, the courage to confront. Kathy What's your score on the courage to confront? Write it down. Kevin Number four, maybe you are able to take critique and constructive criticism well. Then you may have the fourth act of courage, the courage to be confronted. Kathy Rate yourself on how well you can be confronted. Kevin Number five, are you able to step into the unknown and take risks? Then maybe you're able to exercise the fifth act of courage, the courage to learn and grow. Kathy How do you score on stepping into the unknown and taking risks? Kevin Number six, perhaps you have the ability to be vulnerable with others, tell the truth of your story, and also ask for help. This exercise is the sixth act of courage, the courage to be vulnerable. Kathy Rate your vulnerability score now. Kevin And number seven, maybe you have practiced the ability to step up and follow through. Then you are exercising the seventh act of courage, the courage to act. Kathy Rate your score for the seventh act of courage, the courage to act. So good job, everyone. What's your overall courage quotient? As you score yourself, which act of courage came easiest for you? And which one do you need some work on this week? Thanks so much for joining us for another episode of "Coping" and whatever you may be coping with, blessings to you.

Kathy and Kevin discuss overcoming common blocks people face in sharing their personal stories and why every human story matters. They address common myths that our stories are boring or unimportant, fears of revisiting the past or reactions from others, and the healing power of vulnerability in finding connection and give listeners advice about why each story matters and how to start small by sharing with trusted individuals to begin integrating past and present into an evolving narrative arc. Author Leslie Carcamo discusses the transformative power of writing her memoir, “Walking in Healing”. Kevin: Hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of "Coping". Kathy: Yes, welcome everyone. Today we want to finish up our story theme as we dive into asking the question, "Does your story matter?" Kevin: "Does our story matter?" That's a great question. Let's get started. Kathy: So In our Story Journey this year we are learning about our story myths, origin stories and now writing our stories. So as every author knows, you know, we have to wrestle with what we call writer's block. And whether you're writing your story or telling your life story, there are these blocks that arise. So we know that there are around three reasons why we experience blocks and sharing our own stories, but really at the core is this question we're diving in today: Does my story matter? Kevin: Yeah, it's a really great question. In my work as a chaplain spending time with patients in a hospital setting, most of the work that I do centers around meaning-making which happens through conversation and delving into patient stories, their experience both before being diagnosed and now with a new onset illness or medical crisis that's going on in their life and Sometimes patients will conclude sharing their story by saying something like, "Well I know that others have it way worse than I do" or they'll say something like, "Well, I don't want to bore you with my story." So it's interesting. There are these blocks in sharing our own story and that question arising, "does my story matter and what is it mean in comparison to other people's stories who perhaps have it worse than I do or have different experiences than I do? What value does my story have? And why should I share my story with other people?" Kathy: Yes, I've heard all of those. And I've experienced that as well. I know that when I was younger, I would say, like, high school and college years, I thought my life story was super boring. I didn't have any drama or crisis, you know, I was basically the good girl. So I thought that was very uninteresting and nobody would care to hear that story. Yeah, I just thought, "who wants to hear my story? My story doesn't really matter." Kevin: Right. And of course, I know most of your story you describe yourself as the good girl growing up but then life happened. Do you mind sharing a little bit more about how your life and story unfolded? Kathy: Yes, so some of our listeners already know that in my late 30s that we experienced a family crisis and I think of course it wasn't boring any longer I couldn't say that but I was I'll admit that I was ashamed to tell my story for probably about 10 years because there was a lot of judgment from different places about my situation and my choices and I would say maybe within the last seven years -- which is very recent -- I have embraced my story and integrated into the person that you know me to be now. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Yeah that integration piece is such an important part of processing our stories making sense of the things that have happened to us and then finding a pathway forward right? It's a journey, as you said. Yeah so I know that you are in the middle of a Journey with a group of students who are exploring their stories writing their stories tell us a little bit about what you're learning in that group and some of the lessons that we can learn about the types of story blocks that we all can experience. Kathy: Yes it's an amazing Journey and it hasn't been easy just like our lives right? The book we have chosen is Leslie Leyland Fields' "Your Story Matters" and in that, because she's an author and writer herself and a writing coach, she talks about the obstacles like the writing blocks to sharing your story and the first one she talks about is the one I mentioned earlier about me that I experienced and it's the one that says "my life is uninteresting". My story doesn't matter because my life is uninteresting. And while that might be factually true, let's say you are, in your estimation, leading a boring or uninteresting life, one thing to remember is that all of our stories are human stories. So that means that someone out there can always benefit from your story. Kevin: And say a little bit more about that. Why is it that somebody else can benefit from that? Kathy: So in our class, for example, we had a writing prompt called, "How I Got to School Every Day". And when I proposed this, they were like, that's a one word answer, Kathy: , how I got to school every day. I was like, "okay, well tell the stories surrounding how you got to school when you were younger." Oh my goodness, it opened up so much rich storytelling. and connecting where people would say, "oh, I took the bus too, but my bus ride was different" or "I walked to school too". We all connected around how we got to school. It was amazing. Kevin: Yeah, so what you're saying basically is that because our stories are human, it creates a opportunity for connection because we're all human and sharing our story creates that human connection. That's awesome. I know you've shared with me about some of these other blocks and that second block that we can experience in sharing our own story is the fear of the past. So basically this is the fear where somebody could say something like, "I don't want my past to define me. I'm moving forward. I wanna focus on the future. And I don't know how to reconcile my past with my present and where I'm headed with my future." This is one that I've definitely wrestled with in my life. Having come through a lot of hardship and overcome a lot in my life. A lot of people that I encounter in my life now can't make sense of my past and where I've come from and the story that somebody like me failed my senior year of high school and was a terrible student. So I've had to do a lot of work in my life to reconcile where I've come from to where I am today and make sense of what I've overcome to be able to articulate that to others and sharing my story, but then also for myself that it feels like two different lives that I've lived. Kathy: And how would you say that what were some of the things you did to overcome the fear that your past could define you or that people would not understand? They couldn't reconcile the two. Kevin: I think I had to get honest with myself about what the purpose of telling my story was. I think for a while, I would share my past struggles as a way to get sympathy and empathy, as a way to help bring some soothing to the pain that I had. And then as I got older, I think I started to share parts of my story so that people would be impressed with me. And I think I'm still working on that now as I continue to get older and evolve and recognize that as I share my story, perhaps the most powerful thing I can do in sharing my story is share it so there's that connection that we just talked about earlier, so that parts of my story can encourage and empower somebody who may have some similar experience that I do. So the story is mine, but it's no longer about me. Kathy: That's excellent advice, and thanks for sharing that. It reminds me of something that Leslie Fields says is that we can never be the hero or heroine of our own stories. And I thought that was very interesting. And what she means by that is that our stories are meant to serve the world. If our motive or our time is spent trying to win people of our story or to show all the things that we've overcome instead of figuring out what are the truths and lessons that we can pass on to others as a result, then we then take ourselves out of the main character role and that's when we actually find connection. Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Kathy: And so that brings us to our third block, which is very related to the last one, is "I'm afraid of telling the truth". Now that's not, you might be afraid of telling the truth, but regarding your story, it could be that you don't want to share your story because you're afraid of what friends or family members are going to say. You wanna stay in relationships. You don't want to disconnect as a result of sharing your story. And this is a very valid block. And the way that you can work through this, if this is yours, is to find a trusted person or group to share your true story. And if you are wanting to write like a memoir, you can always change names or change the events a bit or even ask their permission if that's an option for you. But regardless of how and when you share it, it is the act of sharing your truth that is most important. What do you think about that? Kevin: Yeah, I think that that's such good advice. And perhaps the only thing to add here is to start small with sharing your story. Start with telling that one trusted friend. Start with telling your therapist, whatever therapeutic relationship you find yourself in. Go find a therapist if you don't have one. And then maybe you're in a small group and you wanna share that with a group of trusted peers. And then you go from there. So it's so important that you're telling your story somewhere that you can be seen and heard somewhere and see where that story and that journey of telling your story takes you. Kathy: For sure. One of our favorite life coach, spiritual coaches, Iyanla Vanzant says, “when you share your story, you heal yourself and you heal others.” Kevin: Yeah, that's so good. Kathy: And that is the crux of why your story matters. Kevin: Yeah, yeah. And so to sum up our episode today, your story does matter. It's important that you share your story. If you find yourself running into some blocks, it may be one of these three: that your story feels uninteresting, that you don't really want to revisit the past because you're focusing on the future, or that you're worried about telling your truth because of how it may impact your relationships around you. I just want to encourage you, if you're facing any of these three blocks, that your story does matter. There is somebody that could benefit from hearing what you've been through and how you've overcome, and so share your story with somebody that you trust and see where that journey of telling your story might take you. Kathy: Yes, for sure. To end our podcast today, we're going to hear a story from one of our Be Well community members, Leslie Carcamo. I am interviewing her on her new memoir, "Walking in Healing". Leslie's book is available on Amazon. Kevin: Yes, let's listen now. As we end, whatever it is you may be coping with, blessings to you. Kathy: Welcome, Leslie. My first question is, what prompted you to write your memoir, your own story? Leslie: Well, I love to write. I just, growing up, I didn't know what exactly. I started when I was younger, like just writing in my journal because I did not know how to express myself. So the only way I could do it is through journaling. And then I discovered later on that I just love writing. I wanted to write a devotional because I felt like devotionals are so pretty. And so, you know, just something that I could write about God and not about me. But then once I started writing, the only thing I could write is my story and then God began to work there, so. Kathy: Okay, well you mentioned one obstacle already of wanting to write your own story. What other obstacles did you face in this project? Leslie: For sure, fear of a lot of things, but one thing that, because I started writing a few years ago, but I got stuck in the fear of being vulnerable. I felt that it was too much or too out there, and I just was thinking of "what if people say this" or like just focusing on that and I just didn't know how to be vulnerable. Kathy: And then how did you overcome that? It gets stuck there, right? We're like, oh, nobody cares about this or people are going to judge me or I'm telling too much. It's TMI. Leslie: I remember one day in particular that I was just wanting to write and then so I got it again and now I just kept writing and at that very moment God began to heal some of the things that I was writing and I realized that I was being healed while I was writing and I wanted to experience that and help someone else experience that. I knew that the smallest thing people can relate to so I felt like if I just write this and one person can relate then it'll be worth it. You know I'll write about my life and about healing but the healing part of writing this book was another level.

Al and Kev talk about Piczle Cross: Story of Seasons Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:12: What Have We Been Up To 00:07:30: News 00:27:50: Piczle Cross: Story Of Seasons 00:43:16: Outro Links Disney Dreamlight Valley “The Laugh Floor” Update Notes Coral Island Updated Roadmap Ikonei Island Console Versions Farm Folks Conveyor Belts Farming Simulator Kids Trailer Minami Lane Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:32) Al: Hello farmers, and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:36) Al: My name is Al, and we are here today to talk about Mario- wait, no, that was last week. (0:00:38) Kevin: and my name is Kevin yeah I mean we could no no we’re just waiting for Princess Peach since it’s the main thing um there’s a demo if you play it you know what it is and you can maybe have your fill okay well okay well okay all right well yeah all right well let me know when you do play though Thank you for the question. (0:00:46) Al: There’s not much to talk about just now. (0:00:56) Al: I still haven’t played Donkey Kong vs or Mario vs Donkey Kong yet. (0:01:01) Al: I’ve been busy with other things. (0:01:07) Al: I’ve bought the game. (0:01:08) Al: I have the game. (0:01:09) Al: It’s sitting here right next to me. (0:01:10) Al: I just haven’t played it yet. (0:01:13) Al: It actually arrived while I was in the US. (0:01:23) Al: I just need to add to the clip. (0:01:25) Al: Oh, well, dude. (0:01:28) Al: Don’t you worry, we need the content. (0:01:32) Al: Awesome. (0:01:33) Al: Hi, Kevin. Welcome. We, today, we’re going to talk about (0:01:37) Al: Pixel Cross Story of Seasons, which is the new story of season themed (0:01:43) Al: nonogram or pie-cross game, however you want to call it. (0:01:46) Kevin: Yeah, it’s it’s just a big cross it’s like it’s like Kleenex right the the brand name is the thing (0:01:52) Al: Exactly, exactly. So, I believe Nonogram is the non-branded generic name for it, (0:01:54) Kevin: Yeah (0:01:59) Kevin: Yeah (0:01:59) Al: and Picross is the standard one that people know, and Pixelcross is this series. So, (0:02:04) Al: just to be confusing. So, we’re going to talk about that. Before that, we have some news. (0:02:05) Kevin: This up start (0:02:13) Al: First of all, Kevin, what have you been up to? (0:02:16) Kevin: uh mostly sweating from the toilet (0:02:22) Kevin: um uh no but um what have I actually been playing um I uh no oh oh actually no big big day today I have done it I have done 152 shrines every piece of armor every same quest (0:02:40) Kevin: tonight my final showdown with Ganon too but I closed the book on Gears of the Kingdom (0:02:43) Al: Nice. (0:02:46) Kevin: very excited for that um yeah yeah fun fact i’ve actually been through that before because I was just like i’m curious what what happens if I go down here and I made it all the way to Ganon but then I got what by the the actual fights going on so um so yeah I at least have an idea of what to expect but uh now that I have a whole crew good stuff i’m looking forward to it. (0:02:48) Al: Awesome, that’s exciting. (0:03:13) Al: Fair enough (0:03:16) Kevin: It’s in a good place right now, but yeah, that’s kind of all I’ve been up to a lot. (0:03:42) Kevin: a lot of tears of the kingdom and big crush, really. (0:03:44) Kevin: What about you, Al? (0:03:45) Kevin: What you been up to? (0:03:46) Al: Yeah, I have actually been playing Pokemon. I’ve been doing, yeah, dangerous. The edge for presumably Legends, Legends Arceus, rather than Scarlet and Violet. I have been playing, (0:03:46) Kevin: Okay, I mean, I’ve gotten the itch. (0:04:05) Al: I’ve been doing the Venusaur raids, that’s what I’ve been doing. (0:04:08) Kevin: Okay. I… yeah, I mean like, um, I don’t know what it means, but right, they just don’t say who, (0:04:19) Kevin: as in what they did in Sword and Shield. Um, I don’t know if it’s because it’s kind of just following on that act, or because of the performance issues, or okay, there’s a number of reasons, I guess, (0:04:33) Kevin: but, um, I, um… (0:04:38) Kevin: I probably will go… I don’t know, I’ve missed a few of them for that mark, the collector and whatnot. (0:04:44) Kevin: Um, maybe I’ll fire… (0:04:46) Al: Yeah, I’m not a huge fan of how Pokemon like your your fellow trainers Pokemon fainting means that you just lose quicker. It feels not great, especially if you’re going online with randoms and you get one person who’s at level 50 and they get knocked out every two rounds, you’re dead and you’re dead in 30 seconds. It’s like that’s not fun. (0:04:57) Kevin: - Ah. (chuckling) (0:05:05) Kevin: oh yeah oh yeah that’s uh that’s oh that’s true see I have my brother and we play (0:05:14) Al: I feel like it kind of. (0:05:17) Al: It stops you recovering from bad strategy, right? (0:05:22) Al: Like, or it stops you recovering from bad players with good strategy. (0:05:23) Kevin: yeah (0:05:27) Al: Whereas, you know, because it’s too fast for you to be able to do anything about that. (0:05:27) Kevin: yep yeah (0:05:32) Al: Whereas in the sword and shield ones, yet them being knocked out wasn’t helping you. (0:05:37) Al: It’s not great that they’re being knocked out, but, you know, (0:05:39) Al: it wasn’t causing you an actual problem in that it was reducing the number of turns or whatever. (0:05:46) Kevin: What? Yeah, it was. (0:05:46) Al: So, not in, yeah, no, no, not in sword and shield. (0:05:47) Kevin: No, no, I’m thinking of the adventures. No, you’re right. I’m sorry. No, no, I’m thinking of the dead raid adventures. (0:05:52) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um… (0:05:52) Al: In sword and shield you had, like, was it 10 turns in total, I think, to knock it out. (0:05:57) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, you’re right. (0:05:58) Kevin: Huh. I never thought about that. (0:06:01) Kevin: That’s… (0:06:03) Kevin: That is a weird design choice. Like, I kind of get it. (0:06:06) Kevin: ‘Cause now that everyone’s kind of on their own turn and incentivizes people to, you know, actually carry their weight instead of just doing the thing. (0:06:16) Kevin: Although that might be more helpful in certain circumstances. (0:06:19) Kevin: Um, but, uh, I mean, yeah, there’s a whole discussion we could have about the design of those things. (0:06:25) Kevin: I… (0:06:27) Kevin: If they want to keep going with these raids and whatnot, I really feel they need to put a little more work into, uh… (0:06:35) Kevin: I don’t know how to best describe this. (0:06:38) Al: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like you can’t bring in a level 50 or whatever. Yeah. (0:06:39) Kevin: I guess just implementing limits or restrictions, right? Like… (0:06:44) Kevin: Rental Book. (0:06:46) Kevin: Yup, yup, you need to have a level 100 or whatever for this fight, yada yada. (0:06:52) Kevin: Um, there, yeah, there’s definitely a lot that could be done. (0:06:56) Kevin: Um, and we’ve had that conversation elsewhere, but Rental Pokemon would probably be the easiest thing to do. (0:07:02) Kevin: Here’s some Pokemon you can use for the rest. (0:07:02) Al: Yeah, I think it would be great to have not just rental Pokémon, but rental Pokémon that other people can submit. So like, you know, people like Steve and other like YouTubers and stuff could say these are the builds that I’m suggesting I think would be fantastic. (0:07:10) Kevin: Oh, that’d be great, yep. (0:07:16) Kevin: Influencers. (0:07:19) Al: But yeah, you’re right, we’ve talked about that over and over again. So I’ve been playing that and I’ve been playing Pixel Cross and that’s about it this week. Not much, not much. (0:07:30) Kevin: Yeah, alright. (0:07:30) Al: Should we talk about some news? (0:07:32) Al: So Disney Dreamlight Valley, the full patch notes for the laugh floor update right now. (0:07:33) Kevin: I guess so. We’re legally obligated to by no one. (0:07:43) Al: So we talked about this a little bit last episode, but just in that it was coming, and obviously it was going to have Monsters Inc. So they’ve detailed a bunch of stuff. The link is in the show notes. I guess a few things I’ll just pick out. They have included the two characters, Mike and Sully. (0:08:03) Al: There are a number of new items. (0:08:05) Al: They’ve got the partner statue. (0:08:08) Al: They start you with Walt and Mickey at Disneyland. (0:08:11) Kevin: Yeah. Oh, do they have it in now? Okay. (0:08:12) Al: They’ve added that in the game now. (0:08:15) Al: And of course, the armor. (0:08:17) Al: You’ve got Dreamlight armor outfit for some reason. (0:08:22) Al: A bunch of new customization, some new star paths and premium bundles. (0:08:29) Al: And Scrooge McDuck’s shop has been expanded. (0:08:32) Al: Absolutely. Yeah, one thing that really annoyed me about that game is you start up and then he’s like, “Oh, I need some money to expand my shop” and you’re like, “No, you don’t. Away and use your own money.” (0:08:36) Kevin: Give the rich duck more money. (0:08:50) Kevin: that’s on how you became a trillionaire don’t you know how capitalism works I need your money to make more money oh that’s a good one (0:08:51) Al: Ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And… (0:09:03) Al: And, of course, you can change your name in the game now. So, there we go. (0:09:10) Al: If you want the more detailed notes there in the show notes, there’s a whole bunch of bugs fixed as well, which is always good. (0:09:16) Al: Next, we have an updated roadmap for Coral Island. So, I actually coincidentally talked about this last episode as well, because I was like, “Oh, I’ve not seen the roadmap in a while.” (0:09:27) Al: They’ve detailed the next three updates coming. (0:09:32) Al: 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3. (0:09:36) Al: They’ve given some detailed information on some of the things coming in 1.1, including the town rank will now go up to S, including some more story and questlines around that. (0:09:53) Al: The tourists are coming, which are the backers. (0:09:56) Al: There was a certain level of backer who could get themselves in as an NPC. (0:09:58) Kevin: Yeah, that’s, hmm, that’s, oh, I don’t, I don’t know if I like that, that’s a, that’s a weird discourse. (0:10:00) Al: coming as tourists. (0:10:02) Al: And, of course, they are not romanceable, which everybody on Twitter is mad about. (0:10:14) Al: It is a little bit, it is a little bit like, oh, these characters that are based on real people, yeah, that’s very, very weird. (0:10:23) Kevin: Mmm. Although I will say, for the people who made it in, they should be able to romance themselves. (0:10:30) Kevin: But that will stand behind. (0:10:35) Al: They’re also adding in the finale of the giant storyline, which I’m very happy with, actually (0:10:44) Al: has some story for the mare folk, which I’m very happy about because, come on, they’re adding hangouts where you can, it’s, I mean, it’s basically dates with NPCs, no, well, (0:10:52) Kevin: You couldn’t before with the mermaids? (0:10:59) Kevin: What was the point? (0:11:00) Al: with the mare folk, there was nothing, there was, you could barely talk to the mare folk, (0:11:03) Al: there was almost nothing. (0:11:03) Kevin: What was the point? (0:11:04) Al: And that was my biggest issue. (0:11:06) Al: They would just decided that was going to be post 1.0 content. (0:11:09) Al: And I don’t think it should have been, I think that this 1.1 update is what should have been (0:11:14) Al: update. That was my whole thing. (0:11:15) Kevin: Probably yeah. Oh my gosh. I’m just looking at the list. Holy mackerel. This should have been 1.0 (0:11:21) Al: I suspect it was a money thing, but. (0:11:24) Kevin: Probably in game dev money matters what? (0:11:32) Al: Yeah, and they’re adding Thai to the game as well. (0:11:38) Al: So I was going to say, if you speak Thai and not English, you’re not going to hear me say that. (0:11:40) Kevin: Okay, um (0:11:44) Al: But there you go. (0:11:45) Kevin: Well, yeah There’s one I have a question about what does what does (0:11:51) Kevin: improvements to the hat system mean what does that mean? (0:11:54) Al: So when you wear a hat, it’s limited on what hairstyles you can have for that. (0:12:02) Kevin: Oh gosh, I hate that. I hate that so much. As someone with long hair, I often get the short end of that stick in games. Sword and Shield, I could wear hats with my actual hairstyle and it killed me. They’re great hats. Unite, just inside. Pokemon Unite is really bad because and hats are considered the same thing, you can’t actually separate them. (0:12:03) Al: So, yeah. (0:12:32) Kevin: Um, save for a few instances, but a lot of the hats come with hair and you do. (0:12:39) Kevin: Oh, that that’s a, that’s one that that’s a very niche and specific thing that really gets under my skin. (0:12:44) Al: Yeah, it gets worse. So I believe until this new update, if you were wearing a hat, you just wouldn’t have any hair. So now they’re adding two hairstyles for hats. I’m quite happy about it personally, because the other thing that games quite often miss with hair is bald options. And they’ll go like, “Oh, here’s a buzz cut,” or whatever, but they’ll very rarely have bald, whereas this did have bald from the start. (0:12:51) Kevin: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. (0:12:57) Kevin: Okay. Well, AB steps. I wouldn’t call it. (0:13:08) Kevin: Okay. True. True. (0:13:14) Al: And we’ll actually have bald for hats. So a rare win for the bald heads. Cool. So yeah. (0:13:21) Kevin: Okay, there you go (0:13:27) Al: Oh, they’re also adding ocean farming and ranching. I’m very intrigued to see what… (0:13:30) Kevin: That’s a big one. (0:13:32) Kevin: Wait, what are you ranching? (0:13:34) Al: I don’t know. They’ve not detailed that yet, so I believe they’re going to talk about that in the next monthly update. So we’ll bring that when it comes. But yeah, I’m intrigued (0:13:44) Al: to see what they’re adding there. Like maybe sharks? Do you get to ranch sharks, maybe? (0:13:47) Kevin: mmm merfolk well you’re not wrong or at least can we get a revolutionary merperson who’s against the ranching I want some you know a little mermaid under (0:13:52) Al: Sounds like slavery. (0:14:14) Al: ICONI Island, they have said that their PlayStation Xbox versions are coming at the end of March. (0:14:26) Kevin: alright that game has very pretty art style only to check it out and not check it out but uh… (0:14:34) Kevin: now that we get consoles uh… (0:14:36) Kevin: oh he’s already on switch and paid down (0:14:38) Al: it is already on switch I believe oh wait maybe it’s not no it’s not on switch yet but they haven’t said anything about switch so who knows if they’ll ever actually come to switch because the this console update just (0:14:47) Kevin: okay well I’ll take (0:14:52) Kevin: mop-mop (0:14:57) Kevin: well I still might there’s a better chance I’ll check it out stuff oh the art isn’t the in-game visuals don’t match the art I’m not 100% you know what I mean all right but either way I’m more likely for me to check it out I do like (0:15:17) Kevin: having from up in the background there (0:15:23) Al: FarmFolks, they are adding quite, I think this is quite wild, their conveyor system. (0:15:31) Al: Have you watched the video on this, Kevin? (0:15:33) Kevin: Yes, it looks awesome. (0:15:35) Kevin: It looks like a monorail system. (0:15:36) Al: Yes, that’s exactly what it is. (0:15:38) Kevin: That’s what I’d call it. (0:15:40) Al: It’s like a monorail system with these trays that are going along this insane monorail system. (0:15:47) Al: And obviously the one they’ve built in the video is not what you would actually do, because is very very long and it doesn’t go (0:15:53) Al: anywhere, it just wiggles around. But I think they’re just trying to show how big and expansive it can be if you want it to be. So I am suddenly very interested in this game. (0:15:55) Kevin: yeah (0:15:59) Kevin: Yeah (0:16:03) Kevin: Right now you design your own roller coaster system for your crops or whatever (0:16:10) Kevin: Making up for that awful name (0:16:13) Al: Well, yeah. There are worse names, but yeah, it’s not a great- (0:16:16) Kevin: Well, okay, yes, yes, you’re right but um, yeah - Yeah. (0:16:26) Kevin: Oh, yeah, that looks fun. (0:16:27) Kevin: That’s a great looking monorail mare system. (0:16:33) Kevin: Kind of like Southfield reminds me of just the openness of it, (0:16:39) Al: Yeah, yeah. I forget, is this game out at all yet? It is not. I was wondering whether it was an early access one. No, it’s nothing. Nothing like that. And I don’t think we have (0:16:52) Kevin: Oh, well, looks that’s a good. (0:17:00) Kevin: I like that. (0:17:06) Kevin: I like how it looks with the art styles okay the (0:17:11) Kevin: My I know I’m I’m taking some interest in this. Wow the the person on their website. That’s just tracer from overwatch. Wow. Okay, um (0:17:20) Al: But in Fortnite style. (0:17:22) Kevin: But (0:17:26) Kevin: When will we get disney dreamland across fortnite (0:17:32) Al: Which way round, like… (0:17:33) Kevin: it’s closer than you think but you know what it could (0:17:36) Kevin: be either and or I don’t think so because there’s an announcement that they made an agreement they’re gonna put a whole universe in it for it like (0:17:38) Al: Because I feel like there have been Disney characters in Fortnite. (0:17:48) Al: - Yeah, but that’s. (0:17:51) Kevin: I mean I guess there’s the Marvel and Star Wars stuff but I don’t know if Disney Cooper I don’t think Mickey Minuss has been in Fortnite (0:17:58) Al: No, it looks like you’re right. (0:17:59) Al: It looks like they haven’t actually got any Disney proper characters in there. (0:18:04) Al: Just just the other the other companies they own. (0:18:12) Al: All right, Farming Simulator Kids, we have a release date (0:18:16) Al: for this is coming on the 26th of March. (0:18:20) Al: So just just under a month to go. (0:18:24) Al: We also know we have this trailer. (0:18:26) Al: have some sort of (0:18:28) Al: idea of the actual gameplay and it looks kind of minigame-esque, very much definitely looks like a kids game, I can see why it’s farming simulator kids. (0:18:40) Kevin: Yeah, there’s, uh, there’s a lot we can talk about here in my, uh, I mean, okay, first of all, it does, it’s not your boring, realistic, uh, no, not boring, but it’s not the standard, realistic farming simulator, it actually has a good, friendly style. (0:19:00) Kevin: Um, I think this is actually a very clever idea. (0:19:05) Kevin: Um, I, I think it’s your towards. (0:19:10) Kevin: It’s like, particularly young kids, um, because there’s like, basic maths and, and sorts of mini games. (0:19:20) Kevin: It’s also very clearly designed for tablets, which is a very common kid. (0:19:26) Kevin: Here’s your tablet thing now. (0:19:28) Kevin: Um, uh, I, I appreciate when there are, you know, genuine efforts to make quality type game (0:19:40) Kevin: kids, even as young as this demographic. (0:19:43) Kevin: Um, and it feels like that’s, uh, that’s how it’s going on here. (0:19:48) Kevin: Um, and, uh, it’s a smart move. (0:19:51) Kevin: Hook ’em on, hook ’em early to the Farm Simulator brand. (0:19:52) Al: Yeah, on one hand, it’s definitely, it looks very kid-friendly and very, it looks like it could be fun, while kind of getting some kind of ideas towards realistic farming in that it taught, you know, it’s trying to show you like the different stages and then what you do with these things. But it feels a little bit weird in that farming simulators thing is they are the realistic farming simulator. (0:20:22) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I will say it is unexpected. I’ll say that. But I, I think it’s a clever. (0:20:22) Al: This is not in any way a realistic farming simulator. (0:20:28) Al: So, I don’t know, it feels a little bit weird (0:20:40) Kevin: I think it’s a good way of going about it right because like, I don’t think farming’s in the head. (0:20:48) Kevin: young, demographic feel, um, and there’s (0:20:52) Kevin: little bits like the actual farming aspects, right? (0:20:56) Kevin: The crops and the, and I’m on the livestock are relatively realistic, right? (0:21:02) Kevin: They’re not cartoony. (0:21:04) Al: Yeah, they’re oversimplified, though. That’s the point, right? I think it’s only as realistic as other farming sims, but I don’t know. I need to try it to see that, because I don’t know if that’s actually the case. (0:21:04) Kevin: Um, they’re in the, whatever art style it’s in, but it is still. (0:21:17) Kevin: I guess so. (0:21:20) Kevin: Yeah, I (0:21:23) Kevin: Yeah, there’s a lot going on here too. There’s the omics running shop you feed people sandwiches from (0:21:30) Kevin: Shirley violet those are the exact shippers early by the (0:21:36) Kevin: You do the farms you the you know the actual farming and livestock, but there’s like indoor games and things like that (0:21:43) Kevin: For some reason dragging a kid into a bathtub (0:21:48) Kevin: Yeah, I don’t know there’s I’m not surprised right farming simulator clearly has money, so um (0:21:55) Kevin: and I still think it’s a (0:21:59) Kevin: Good idea, and I think it’s it’s a pretty alright looking kid’s game (0:22:04) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:22:05) Kevin: Although the the static followed by the aliens on the TV freaks me out a little that’s that’s some creepy harvest moon nonsense They’re pulling there (0:22:14) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:22:16) Al: I’ll need to try this out to get Craig to try it and and see what it’s like. (0:22:21) Al: And last but not least, in the news, we have a new game, Minami Lane. (0:22:28) Al: Do you think it’s Minami? (0:22:30) Al: Minami. (0:22:30) Kevin: Sure, oh wait, it’s not Miami, it is Miami. (0:22:33) Al: Yeah, it does. (0:22:34) Al: So this game has just come out. (0:22:37) Kevin: Yeah. (0:22:41) Kevin: It’s not the GTA VI simulator, farming simulator. (0:22:46) Al: It came out yesterday, I think, as we were recording, so a week ago. (0:22:51) Al: The little blurb on it is, “Welcome to Minami Lane. (0:22:54) Al: Build your own street in this tiny, cosy, casual management sim. (0:22:59) Al: Unlock and customize buildings, manage your shops, and maximise the happiness of your (0:23:04) Al: villagers to complete quests and fill your street with (0:23:09) Kevin: Okay, so it, uh, it feels very, um, it’s the, the bunny game and the can’t game. (0:23:19) Kevin: When would you guys talk about before or wherever you talk about? (0:23:20) Al: Mm. Yes. Um, Usagi Shima and, uh, what’s it called? (0:23:23) Kevin: Yeah. (0:23:27) Kevin: That goes on the, yeah, it feels very much in that vein, probably (0:23:32) Kevin: largely because of the art style and the kind of isometric view. (0:23:39) Kevin: I mean, it’s really just centralized on this one street, right? (0:23:43) Kevin: So, um, uh, overall, but you like how it looks overall. (0:23:51) Kevin: Um, I think the art style is, it’s charming. (0:23:56) Kevin: It’s kind of old story book-ish feel. (0:24:00) Kevin: I don’t know how to describe that better. (0:24:02) Kevin: Um, I like the customizability options it looks like, and there’s some goofies. (0:24:09) Kevin: Like a Capa walking around. (0:24:11) Kevin: There’s cats that you can pet. (0:24:13) Kevin: Um, I think it’s cute. (0:24:15) Kevin: This feels like what I would have wanted from Garden Galaxy. (0:24:19) Al: Yeah, I feel like this is kind of, because I’ve talked about how I used to really like (0:24:27) Al: city building games and stuff, but then they got really complicated and I don’t like that anymore. (0:24:29) Kevin: Mm-hmm [laughter] (0:24:35) Al: But this feels like it’s simple enough that I could enjoy it, but complicated enough that it’s yeah, not just Garden Galaxy, it’s not just like put things down where you want them to. (0:24:49) Al: Like there’s actually a purpose to that and you’re trying to do something. (0:24:50) Kevin: Yeah. Yeah, there’s little bits of feedback like you’re customizing your ramen that you sell in the shop. That’s cute. Yeah, no, I agree. It’s striking a nice balance of actually having stuff to do or feels like but not overwhelming you with all the crazy, mighty aspects of those crazy city builders. (0:25:16) Al: - Yeah, and it’s super cheap. (0:25:20) Kevin: Let’s see, oh, it released, it’s already out, how much should we take? (0:25:23) Kevin: Wow, it’s like five bucks, yeah, you’re right, roughly, yeah. (0:25:28) Kevin: I’ll have to check that out, probably, maybe, I don’t know. (0:25:32) Al: No, no promises. Never any promises. Yeah, I’m very tempted to try this out. (0:25:34) Kevin: It looks cute, no promises. (0:25:42) Kevin: There’s a yokai tree, wait, what does that mean? (0:25:46) Kevin: Is that why there’s a cat by walking around? (0:25:46) Al: It’s a tree with yokai, obviously. I also like how it starts out small, and when it starts out small, it’s like the actual area you have is small. So you don’t have like, (0:25:48) Kevin: Bye. (0:25:58) Al: One of the things about city builders quite often is you have this massive area. (0:26:02) Al: But you can only use a tiny bit of it but you still have to see everything whereas this is like here it focuses only on the area you have and everything else is nothing right it’s like this is the only thing that exists to you this is this is your focus and then as more areas become available to you then they become visible in the game which I really like (0:26:04) Kevin: Mm-hmm, right? (0:26:16) Kevin: Yeah (0:26:18) Kevin: Yeah (0:26:22) Kevin: Right, right, yeah (0:26:25) Kevin: Yeah (0:26:27) Kevin: All the customization options too looks like (0:26:29) Al: Or you can build tree houses. (0:26:31) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, that’s what the yokai trees for (0:26:37) Kevin: Yeah, oh there you go, there’s your Boba cafe, oh shoot they got tenuki it’s off brand (0:26:43) Kevin: Tom Nook was running everything (0:26:46) Kevin: I (0:26:50) Kevin: This is tempting me, I won’t lie. I might actually look into it. He’s on the steam probably on the steam. It’s clickin (0:26:58) Kevin: Let’s team game on the odd bet it to find an audience on switch (0:27:02) Al: It is, it is only on Steam, yeah. (0:27:03) Kevin: Developers names you (0:27:05) Al: I can’t see any indication. (0:27:06) Kevin: Yeah, all right (0:27:10) Kevin: They’re probably not planning it now until the money rolls in (0:27:16) Kevin: Yeah, but man check it out folks Minami Lane. It’s cute (0:27:20) Kevin: If you like the soggy, I think whatever the thing was (0:27:24) Al: Usagi, Usagi Shima and Neko Atsumi, which by the way, we should probably mention, I guess, Neko Atsumi, they’re making a new, a new one, a second Neko. (0:27:26) Kevin: Thank you, there you go you like those check it out (0:27:37) Kevin: Yeah, they said all mad people like that for those bunnies we can’t let them steal our thunder (0:27:42) Al: Cool. That’s the news. Woo. So we are going to talk about what is definitely a farming game. Pixel cross story of season. (0:27:48) Kevin: Whoo (0:27:58) Kevin: You’re making things grow in your mind, Al. (0:28:05) Kevin: Okay, so first off, I mean simple. (0:28:08) Al: Yes, how to explain this game. (0:28:14) Kevin: Okay, you do know Picross, okay now that, but now put Story of Seasons on it, there you go. (0:28:20) Al: Yeah, I mean, so, so, yeah, so let’s let’s start out with, I mean, it is what you think is it’s it’s a nonogram, it’s a pie cross, whatever you want to call it. That is what it is. That is the game. But what’s quite interesting is that they have built a kind of self-creating farm in. (0:28:21) Kevin: This is the game. (0:28:23) Kevin: Guess what, I like both of those, it’s a good game. (0:28:50) Al: I’m not 100% sure exactly what’s happening, but I’m halfway through summer and I’ve not done that many puzzles. (0:28:53) Kevin: Mm hmm. Yeah. (0:29:08) Kevin: I thought it was one day per puzzle too, but you might be right. I don’t know. (0:29:18) Al: a few more days than I have puzzles done. (0:29:20) Kevin: Hmm (0:29:20) Al: But that aside, that aside, as you progress, you have your two, they’re like the horror, (0:29:32) Al: well, the story of seasons characters, the main ones. The harvest, yeah, but in 3D, (0:29:35) Kevin: the og harvest moon protagonists (0:29:39) Al: which is that they’ve recreated them in 3D, they are just going about doing a farm behind you. (0:29:45) Al: Now, they’re very slow, I would not take two seasons to start. (0:29:50) Al: Planting some seeds. But, I think it’s cute. (0:29:56) Kevin: Yeah, yeah. (0:29:58) Kevin: OK, let me take this to the back here. (0:30:00) Kevin: How much experience do you have with pickers and all? (0:30:03) Al: Oh, pretty decent amount, yeah. I’ve played a good chunk of the official progress ones. (0:30:05) Kevin: OK. (0:30:09) Al: I’ve played some many other ones. I had an app on my phone for a while doing some nonogram. (0:30:12) Kevin: Mm-hmm okay okay um that’s uh well you know because yeah that that’s the game right so if you’re you listener enjoy it you will enjoy this game undoubtedly so I think there’s two things we can look at it here first all the the story of seasons aspect of it because yeah that’s going on in the background but you’re just seeing it whenever you go back to the main menu. (0:30:16) Al: Yeah, you know, the usual. (0:30:42) Kevin: You can imagine with these themed puzzle games, all the puzzles are story of season related, right? (0:30:44) Al: Yeah. (0:30:46) Al: No, I’m actually looking at it right now. (0:30:48) Al: It’s completely paused while you’re doing puzzles. (0:31:06) Kevin: Your puzzles are going to be turnip and watering cans and characters from the story of season games. (0:31:12) Kevin: In fact, they have what’s called an almanac where you can just basically go through all the characters and stuff once you complete their puzzles, you get art and information on them and whatnot. (0:31:26) Kevin: And so it’s very much a story of seasons celebration type game as well, right? A lot more condensed, but it’s a fun little Hall of Fame. (0:31:41) Kevin: And on top of that. (0:31:42) Kevin: When big advantage it has over other (0:31:45) Kevin: The cross games you get that wonderful wonderful story of season soundtrack. They have a (0:31:52) Kevin: sampling from different games (0:31:55) Kevin: Um, and I really enjoy it, especially the wonderful life ones (0:31:59) Kevin: those those (0:32:02) Kevin: I (0:32:06) Al: I’m shocked, I’m shocked. (0:32:06) Kevin: So, yeah, that’s right (0:32:10) Kevin: So, you know, I give it thumbs up on (0:32:12) Kevin: that aspect from this little tribute game, right? (0:32:16) Kevin: But now looking at it, getting a little more in depth here from the cross side of it. (0:32:24) Kevin: I’m actually really surprised and pleased by how much of a control you can have over there. (0:32:32) Kevin: They give you a lot of accessibility and options to help deal with the puzzles. (0:32:36) Kevin: There’s color indicators to help you kind of see. (0:32:42) Kevin: There’s a clue you can look at here, or you’ve completed this row, or autofill empty spaces, etc. (0:32:52) Kevin: There’s a lot of options in my opinion, or at least compared to the ones I’ve played. (0:32:58) Kevin: And I think that’s cool. (0:33:00) Kevin: Me being who I am, I turn them all off, and I have just the grid with black and white numbers, (0:33:06) Kevin: and I go at it like that. (0:33:10) Kevin: because that’s how I like to play playgrounds, (0:33:11) Kevin: but, (0:33:12) Kevin: what, for people who maybe don’t enjoy it as much like I do in my crazy, miserable style, (0:33:20) Kevin: they offer a lot for that and, in fact, it’s the default. (0:33:24) Kevin: They ease your way into it, which I appreciate. (0:33:30) Kevin: I don’t know how many puzzles there are, but I feel like there’s probably a lot. (0:33:35) Al: There are a lot because I think there’s is it 30 on the first screen and then there are multiple screens and then there’s also 25 on the first screen but then but then there’s a good like seven or eight pages and then there’s also the mosaic ones as well that you build up as you go so yeah there’s quite a few. (0:33:42) Kevin: I… yeah, I think it’s 25 on the first… is it 30? 25, 30, one of them. (0:33:55) Kevin: Yep, the collage ones where you, you know, you do your different pictures, or different puzzles that form one big picture altogether, and I appreciate that, right? (0:34:09) Kevin: I played Pokemon Picross, which did a similar mechanic, and I’ve always found that a lot of fun. (0:34:15) Kevin: A clever way of doing, you know, a nice big picture that you can’t quite see. (0:34:22) Kevin: I, um, yeah, I mean. (0:34:25) Kevin: I don’t know, it’s- the game maybe feels small because it only has like two screens, basically, the puzzle screen and the main menu, but… (0:34:34) Al: I think, I mean, if you’re not used to Picross games, I can understand why you might think it was small, right? But like, I don’t know about you, but like, compared to most Picross games, it feels pretty standard. Size-wise. (0:34:48) Kevin: I guess so like I’m trying to think maybe I haven’t played as many as I like I (0:34:55) Kevin: Say the 3d ones I played Pokemon pick cross played Mario’s pick cross I’m trying to think I can’t remember the last time I played up across like s game or whatever. Um, so maybe you’re right (0:35:05) Kevin: but either way, it’s not really necessary because (0:35:08) Kevin: It’s just (0:35:14) Kevin: I (0:35:16) Kevin: I’m curious to see if… (0:35:19) Kevin: you know, once you complete certain sections from the almanac or collections or whatever, I’m curious to see if there’s any more. (0:35:26) Kevin: But, you know, all that’s just sprinkles on top. (0:35:30) Kevin: Yeah, what can I say? Spoolcross is really good, right? Like, it’s hard to critique it because it is what it is, right? (0:35:36) Kevin: It’s like Tetris, you know, Tetris. (0:35:38) Al: Yeah, I mean I also I really like the characters building away your farm in the background. (0:35:49) Al: I think it’s a really fun addition that makes it, like this is what makes it a story of seasons one, rather than just it’s across but also they’re all farming related, right? (0:35:52) Kevin: It is. Yeah. (0:35:58) Kevin: For. (0:36:01) Al: I mean obviously they’ve got some of the characters as them but come on. (0:36:02) Kevin: For. (0:36:06) Kevin: Yeah, you know, okay. (0:36:08) Al: So, I just double-checked there are 270 main ones and then there are five more collages which all have like 10 to 20 in them. (0:36:12) Kevin: Okay, I do. (0:36:16) Kevin: - That’s okay, yeah, that’s a good chunk, I appreciate that. (0:36:22) Kevin: All right, the bunch. (0:36:29) Kevin: Yeah, it’s something like that. (0:36:32) Kevin: Okay, one thing I will say, I do wish, because you’re right, (0:36:37) Kevin: the building up of the farm in the background, I think it’s cute and charming, right? (0:36:47) Kevin: I do wish they put it a little more up front. (0:36:50) Kevin: Like. (0:36:52) Kevin: I don’t know like maybe clearly saying, okay, complete three puzzles and you upgrade your barn or you get a cow in the background or whatever. (0:37:02) Al: Yeah. I’m actually wondering whether it might be time based, like real time based, or like the number of days you go in, because I just feel like I’m halfway through summer and they’re still breaking rocks. And I just, I feel like, I mean, I’ve basically only been playing it today, right? I haven’t, I haven’t played it before today. It only came out, what, two days ago. So I didn’t play it yesterday or the day before I played it today. So I, and (0:37:07) Kevin: I’m, yeah, that’s likely. (0:37:23) Kevin: Yeah. (0:37:28) Kevin: Yeah. (0:37:33) Al: it’s like most of these games designed to be play a few a day, then put it down. And so therefore I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s how they built up the farm is because that’s how they expect most people to play. It’s a couple of times a day. So each day the farm (0:37:39) Kevin: Yeah, I’m sure but those (0:37:52) Kevin: okay you know what that makes a lot of sense and you’re probably right and they’re also wrong because they should be wandering to the maniacs like me who just retreat and and just play pick rocks for hours and hours (0:37:56) Al: Yeah, I think this is the only game we could potentially cover this quickly after it came out, right? Two days. Two days and we’re already recording a podcast about it. I don’t think we’ve done that for any game. It is absolutely wild that we’ve done that. But it’ll be interesting. (0:38:16) Kevin: Well, when Story of Seasons Tetris comes out, we’ll do the same. (0:38:20) Al: We’ll check in. We’ll definitely check in. (0:38:26) Al: And in the future to see if it’s gone any further. Did you play in the last two days as well as today? What are your characters doing? Open up. (0:38:33) Kevin: Yes, I played. I haven’t played today, but I played yesterday and the day before um (0:38:39) Kevin: Um I think they’re roughly at the same place where you said I’m also I (0:38:44) Kevin: in summer I don’t recall how far I’m into it, but I spent some a lot of time in the (0:38:49) Kevin: the collage puzzle - (0:38:52) Kevin: But they’re I think they planted some seeds at this point (0:38:58) Al: See, mine haven’t. Nope, no seeds planted at all, so I, that does feel to me like it’s, (0:39:03) Kevin: I (0:39:06) Al: so I’ve finished. I’ve, yeah. (0:39:07) Kevin: Could be wrong. I might be misremembering um (0:39:11) Kevin: Like us like we said it’s only like when you go to the main menu when you see it right um so sometimes I’m not even paying that much attention. I’m (0:39:18) Kevin: They sometimes just looks like they’re just running around and just smashing stuff because that’s that was a lot of it at the beginning (0:39:25) Kevin: But I probably will stick with it, and I’m curious to see you know how big it will get (0:39:32) Kevin: It would have been (0:39:33) Kevin: I think it would have been a little fun to have a little more flourish during the actual puzzle - not inside the grid or anything But just maybe have the character standing around looking at the puzzle doing any moat or an action when something happens. You know what I mean? (0:39:48) Al: Yeah, yeah, that could have been fun. (0:39:50) Kevin: Just just a little something like that, right and and maybe introduce some other characters from the games Right because you have the almond I can that the puzzles or whatnot But it’d be nice to see him just hey walking by or saying hello or whatever (0:40:03) Kevin: But you know all that’s new thinking more or less because it’s pig cross really like it’s a double thumbs up for me (0:40:16) Al: No, I agree. I’m trying to think if there’s anything else we want to talk about this game. (0:40:16) Kevin: What the new Pokemon games pig cross sold [laughter] (0:40:28) Kevin: Uh, I mean, it was, yep, really simple, right? (0:40:29) Al: If you like Picross, you will like this game. That’s it. You should. (0:40:36) Kevin: And if, I will say, if you’ve never played pick offs, this is a fun one to get into. (0:40:42) Kevin: Yes, you should want to do it now to, uh, this is a good one to pick up. (0:40:48) Kevin: Like I said, there’s a lot of options and customizability and how you want to play. (0:40:53) Kevin: Um, and then I, I think it’s a very. (0:40:58) Kevin: Good entry point, not like that crosses anything crazy hard or anything, but it it makes you feel welcome. Let’s say (0:41:08) Al: I agree. It is definitely one of the most accessible ones, and it gives you it gives you an incentive as well. So if you do put on some of the hints and stuff like that, (0:41:12) Kevin: Yep, and the good music. (0:41:24) Al: it will indicate that that’s happened. It won’t penalize you, but it will indicate at the end that you used one of the specific things, which might give you an incentive to go, Oh, let me try doing it without those hints. (0:41:30) Kevin: Yeah, yep, yeah, yep (0:41:38) Al: I don’t like when they penalize you for doing stuff like that, (0:41:41) Al: but it’s fun to give you just a little bit of a nudge to be like, Hey, maybe try it. (0:41:44) Kevin: Yeah (0:41:46) Al: Maybe dry it, you know. (0:41:47) Kevin: Yeah, absolutely and (0:41:50) Kevin: Something of really minor detail that I haven’t seen in any of the I don’t think I’ve seen any other pick cross games I played (0:41:57) Kevin: It will actually record your time Which I think is fun. If you want to go back and see if you’ve improved any I got some tricks and whatnot (0:42:06) Al: Yeah, I managed to get the first level down to three seconds. (0:42:07) Kevin: Oh (0:42:11) Kevin: Jeez jeez man (0:42:14) Kevin: I probably could but I’m so methodical about my across like I know I could just look at it and solve it But I want to do it robot once I normally do (0:42:20) Al: Yeah, well, the good thing about that one is it’s just like the top three rows are all full and then the middle column is full. That’s all you need to do. So it’s like you can immediately see because it’s like four, you see four fives. So you just go across the fives and that’s it done. (0:42:41) Kevin: yeah yep yeah yes alright well I guess that’s that huh cuz I got nothing else for it um it’s a good one pick it again that’s pick pixel like you know you like the the squares you get it you get it out pixel story of seasons (0:42:41) Al: It was fun. It was fun to see how quickly I could do that one. And it’s literally just the only thing that’s stopping me is the fact that the buttons take time to move across. That’s it. (0:42:58) Al: Yeah, that’s fine. Play the game. (0:43:10) Al: Awesome. Cool. Well, thank you, Kevin, for joining me to talk about Pixel Cross Story of Seasons. I’m sure Mika will be sad that he wasn’t here to talk about it as well. (0:43:12) Kevin: something like that go look up google is where joe fine is (0:43:27) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, we’ll get him on when we went to be the second harvest (0:43:34) Al: Game of the year 2020 (0:43:37) Kevin: Well, look if you get is both on there’s a more than a non-zero chance of that (0:43:42) Al: Where can people find you on the internet, Kevin? (0:43:48) Kevin: Find me at Cooper Press for my personal Twitter on (0:43:52) Kevin: We’re currently now posting a lot of good dank memes about Pokemon legends (0:43:58) Kevin: Find me at spreader square to gonna see my art or find me at Rainbow Road radio The Mario podcast that I do with in this case last week out you were on (0:44:10) Kevin: Where we went through some Mario questions and discussed Brie Larson and most importantly we casted the (0:44:17) Kevin: live-action Mario movie (0:44:20) Kevin: So, you know buckle in for that one. What about you out? Where do people find you? (0:44:26) Al: Well you can find me on last week’s episode of Rainbow Road Radio. (0:44:30) Al: You can also find me on Twitter and on Mastodon at thescotbot. (0:44:37) Al: You can find the podcast on Tumblr and Twitter at THSPod. (0:44:43) Al: You can find links to everything we’ve talked about in the show notes and also on our website harvestseason.club where we also have a feedback form if you want to send us feedback. (0:44:54) Al: If you do that, it’ll probably get mentioned on the podcast. (0:44:56) Al: You’ll also find a link to our Patreon, patreon.com/thspod, (0:44:57) Kevin: Hey, there you go (0:45:03) Al: where you can support the podcast. If you do that, you will get access to the Slack, (0:45:08) Al: where we love to mock me. And we have been admiring Cody’s Fox Craft Island. (0:45:17) Al: You’ll also find bonus episodes of the podcast called The Greenhouse, (0:45:22) Al: Where we talk about things that are not, CODGECORE GAMES. (0:45:27) Al: Including either already out or coming out soon, depending on if I have any time tomorrow, (0:45:33) Al: will be me and Kevin talking about the Pokemon Day Presents and some stuff that happened in that. (0:45:44) Al: I mean, one thing, right? That’s what we’re going to be talking about, one thing. (0:45:47) Kevin: All right. (0:45:48) Al: Unless you particularly want to talk about the master’s updater. (0:45:53) Kevin: This is Thank you. (0:45:55) Al: All right, cool. Wow. Thank you. (0:45:56) Al: Thank you, Kevin, again, for joining me. Thank you listeners for listening and until next time, have a good harvest. (0:46:03) Theme Tune: The harvest season is created by Al McKinley, with support from our patrons, including our pro farmers, Kevin, Stuart and Alisa. (0:46:18) Theme Tune: Our art is done by Micah the Brave, and our music is done by Nick Burgess. (0:46:22) Theme Tune: Feel free to visit our website harvestseason.club for show notes and links to things we discussed in this episode. (0:46:38) Kevin: I mean, I guess it was the Marvel and Star Wars stuff, but I don’t know if Disney for Looper I don’t think Mickey Minuss has been in for it not yet (0:46:55) Al: scrolling down a list now. Marshmallow, some DC characters. This is a very long list. Alien, (0:46:58) Kevin: No goofy, immigrative. (0:47:05) Kevin: I’ll mope. (0:47:11) Kevin: Too long, some would say. (0:47:15) Kevin: Oh my gosh, he was in that. (0:47:22) Kevin: Solid snakes in there. (0:47:24) Al: It’s just such a long list, I feel like it’d be quicker to google it.

This podcast episode features a conversation with Kevin Crispin, a mental health advocate and podcast host. Kevin believes that stories are a powerful tool for healing. He shares his own experiences with anxiety and panic attacks, showcasing his humorous and sarcastic approach to mental health. Through their discussion, Kevin and host Lisa Boehm emphasize the importance of humor in dealing with mental health challenges and finding joy in the midst of difficult times. ............................................................. Find Kevin here: www.sadtimespodcast.com @sadtimespodcast (instagram) Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/373292146649249) ............................................................. Rising Strong links: Get new episode notifications: bit.ly/risingstrongupdates Follow us on Instagram: www.instagram.com/risingstrongpodcast Facebook page - send your reviews and comments via the 'comment' button here: www.facebook.com/risingstrongpodcast Email Lisa your ideas for solo episodes: https://www.lisakboehm.com/contact-lisa WIN SWAG: · Email a screenshot of your 5-star review for a chance to win some Rising Strong swag! Lisa@LisaKBoehm.com Remember to follow and subscribe so you never miss an episode ............................................................ TRANSCRIPTS: Host/Lisa: If you think humor and mental health don't go well together, you're wrong, because today's guest is going to make you giggle and smile. Kevin Crispin is a mental health advocate and podcast host who believes that stories are the great healing currency of humankind. Kevin and I connected in the podcast space online, and a few weeks ago I was on his podcast, sad times. It turns out that Kevin and I have a lot in common, including a long history with anxiety and panic attacks. Now, don't let that scare you. I think you'll really enjoy Kevin's humorous and sarcastic approach to mental health. Welcome to the show, Kevin. Kevin: Hey, thanks for having me. And I do want to say at this recording, we did record a couple of weeks ago. We have not released it yet, but don't worry. Now, as I watch you and learn how to do social media, I will tag you once we do release yours in the upcoming weeks. Host/Lisa: Perfect. Look forward to sharing that to the internets. Yes, to the Googles and the internets. Kevin: And the chat gbts, who will then explain to us what we just. Host/Lisa: Yeah, yeah. So let's jump right into this. Kevin, you have, as I said, a long history with anxiety. Let's go back in time and tell us when that started. Kevin: Yeah. When we conversed a little bit beforehand, I did make an attempt at a pithy remark to say it started when I was born, but really, I would say it was about when I was four was when I really started to notice it. I was someone who would get very anxious and wanted to make sure everybody around me felt okay and was okay. The first time I had a knowing panic attack, or at least where I felt like this doesn't feel right. I was about five years old. I was staying in my grandparents, and I was sitting in the living room at their house, and it was almost as if the walls were closing in on me because I just kept having the same thought over and over again. I'm going to run away. I'm going to run away. I'm going to run away now. I didn't want to run away, but I was so afraid I was going to run away. And I became consumed with that fear. So I'm consumed with this fear, which is antithetical to what I want to be doing at that moment, which was sitting in that chair thinking about the cubs or something. And I was consumed by the fear. But also a part of me was thinking to myself, but I don't want to do this. Why am I so worried about it? And this was long before I had had any sort of mental health diagnosis. This is long, a couple of years before I started therapy, and I had no idea about what that disconnect meant or what my perception of reality when I am anxious meant. Like, I couldn't have dove down into any of those things, but at the time I was just very afraid and very confused. Host/Lisa: Wow, that must have been frightening, especially as a little kid. Kevin: Yeah, it's pretty hardcore. And I think this is true and maybe this will be true of some of your listeners. I had all these thoughts, I got through it, but I didn't know how to talk to anybody about it because I didn't know how to explain to them. I thought if I went up to my grandma and said, I'm afraid I'm going to run away, she would say something very loving like, well, you're not going to run away. We won't let you. You're going to be just safe here. But when I try to explain, I don't want to run away, that's when you get the perplexed look like, well, why are you afraid of it? And so I just kind of kept it to myself. And that's something that I've done a lot of my life, is I've kept my worries to myself because I didn't always know how to explain them to people, and often too, at no fault of anybody else's. If you start to have a long explanation about the struggles that you're having, that can cause the anxiety for them, like, we'll wait. I don't understand what we're talking about and all this stuff. So I think I learned early on self learning behavior. Nobody taught me this to keep it to myself and just get through it and make sure everybody else is okay. Host/Lisa: I know myself with anxiety in particular. I felt really stupid saying things, just. Kevin: Saying them out loud. Host/Lisa: Saying them out loud. As soon as I started saying them out loud, it just sounded ridiculous that I would be anxious about something and then I was self conscious and then I wouldn't want to embarrass myself. And like you say, it's just for a variety of reasons. It's sometimes easier to keep it on the inside. Not so much healthy, but easier. Kevin: Or what we think is easier. Right? Host/Lisa: You're right. Kevin: It goes to something else that I've learned over the many years that often what's going on? I'm a big believer in storytelling. I believe, as I have said a couple of times, stories are the great healing power of humankind. The more we hear, the more we heal. But there's an adverse to that. And there are stories we tell ourselves in our head that are, in your case, that you just said, that's stupid. Or I'm self conscious about that. That's a story where, let's just say it's you and one other person and you don't want to tell them. It's almost as if you're taking their agency away, too, without giving them the chance to say, well, no, Lisa, it's not stupid. Or Kevin. No, it's not weird that you are afraid. You want to run away, but you're not wanting to run away. Host/Lisa: Yeah, that's really interesting, too. And I know we had talked, know the quote unquote voices in our love. You call yours Frank. Tell us, what about Frank. Kevin: Frank's a ************. I do want to say where Frank's name came from. I'm a big Tom Waits fan, and he has a record from 1983 called Frank's Wild Years. And there's a song on there, I believe. No, I'm sorry. 1983 was swordfish Trump bones with a song called Frank's Wild Years. He then had a record called Frank's Wild Years in 1987. Anyway, the song Frank's wild Years is a spoken word song about this dude who's just a **** and crazy and likes to drink Mickey's big mouths and burns down a house. And so I thought, that seems like the type of voice I've got going on in my head. And it's not that I hear voices. I'm lucky that I do not struggle with that. It's that it's my inner critic. Right? Critic being the nicest word I could ever say about Frank because he's much worse than he. For example, many times I've talked to somebody and I'm talking to them, and Frank is literally saying, you ******* idiot. They don't care what you're saying. You're not saying it right. You said, um, too many times. What the **** are you not. Just shut up, Kevin. Nobody wants to hear from you. Why don't you just go over there? I mean, it's just constant, constant. Host/Lisa: Hey, I have a Karen. I have a Karen. Kevin: Karen. There you go. Host/Lisa: Yeah. And my apologies to any listeners who are named Karen, but, yeah, my voice is Karen, and she's really annoying. I wouldn't say that she's always in my head criticizing me, but she's. She's calling me a dumb *** quite often for a variety of things. And I don't know if that's normal. I'd like to know how many people have that negative self talk going on. Kevin: My best guess is this. I think that there are variations of it, just like there are variations on most things. And I think certain people, it's very quiet, right? And then certain people, it's very loud. And I think a good example of this is something I've noticed about myself the last couple of years. I'm holding up my phone here, and I misplace that thing all the time. And it doesn't help that when I'm on the phone almost all the time, I have my wireless headphones on. So I'm walking around, and often I say out loud to myself when I can't find it, I say things, and I'm not kidding, things like, Kevin, you're a failure. Kevin, you idiot. Out loud. And then I've learned to stop and say, well, it's just a phone, so maybe not. But even this morning, I'm currently in a hotel room. And even this morning, as I went to leave, I had left the bolt lock thing on. So I opened the door and it caught, and it gave me a start. And I said, before I even thought about it, I said, ******* idiot. Come on. About something like that, right? And I'm not saying, feel sorry for me. Please don't think that that type of negative self talk throughout the day about something as innocuous as a bolt lock. It adds up for people, and it really can be very difficult to deal with. Host/Lisa: And I think especially, we're talking about mental health here. To hear ourselves talking to ourselves. I mean, the person that we spend the most time with, that we should love the most, and we talk the trashiest, too. That's not good on a good day, when life is good, but when we're in the worst of it. Yeah. I can't imagine anything worse. And yet we do it all the time. All the time. Kevin: It's almost as if. Have you thought about why we do it all the time? Do you have any hypotheses about that? Host/Lisa: I do, and I don't know if it fits or not. I think growing up, I was the kid. I was never an outsider, per se, but I was never one of the cool kids. I was always on the periphery, moved around a lot. There was a variety of reasons, but I found that acceptance, a lot of times came from self depreciating humor. Kevin: Yes. I'm sorry. I'm nodding, but yes. Host/Lisa: Yeah. And I feel like that has just stuck. Even though logically, I'm a reasonably intelligent human being, logically, I know that that is damaging logically. I know that I'm not stupid. I flub up. I do silly things. I'm a human being, but I catch myself on the daily just trash talking myself. And that's why I wonder, does everybody do. Kevin: Very, I think it's got to be on a know and know. I've had therapists say to me, well, now I'll explain a situation to them and I'll be like, I'm so mad at myself about X, Y or Z. And they'll say, well, Kevin, what would happen if your good friend came to you and said that they were in this situation? I'd say, well, that makes sense. That's normal. They're going to be fine. And they said, well, what's the difference between them and you? And I say, oh, well, I can't give myself that break. I don't really know. The best answer I could come up with is I still think it's some form of control. I still think, think that I am in some way exercising control over the situation by putting myself down. And I think that's foolish. But I think that at some point these voices develop in our heads and maybe they had a small need at that time that they met, but these patterns develop in our brains and then we grow and they stay and they get larger and larger and larger and larger. And so getting out of those patterns is a whole other thing. Host/Lisa: Well, and I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I read something a month or so ago and it keeps coming up daily in my life because I think it's so true. We do more of what we do more of and we get better at what we do more of. So, for example, if you trash talk yourself on the daily, that's a habit, right? It's a habit and it's something that I'm guessing would be as hard to stop doing as smoking or going on a diet or changing your eating habits, whatever. And you'd think of, I've been doing this for a number of decades now, right? So this isn't going to be something that I just read about, think about, hear about and go, oh, I'm so done that, right. And I think, yeah, it's something that I would like to stop and I would like to see you stop and I would like to see everybody who's struggling with that because it doesn't help us. Right. And even I think about raising kids, our kids definitely will all the time follow what we do more than follow what we say, right? So if mom is constantly looking in the mirror. I'm too fat, I've got to go on a diet, blah, blah, blah. Guess what? Kids are going to probably start saying, particularly daughters. And same thing with the self depreciation, right? Kids are going to grow up hearing that, too. So, yeah, something that we've got to stop. But let's change direction a little bit here. You and I had talked about this a little bit before we jumped on, and I love your sarcasm. Honestly. Like your sarcasm and humor. What? Do you think that the place, or do you think that humor has a place with mental health and why? Kevin: Absolutely. I think that humor has a place most places in the world. And then I'm going to say the word place again. Place. Place. So humor, I had, a long time ago, I had a realization, which was the only thing, there's so many things befuddling in life and so many things befuddling in the world, that the only thing that seems to make sense in any situation is kindness every time, 100%. But I think a close second is humor. And humor absolutely has a place in mental health, because if we take ourselves, in my opinion, if we take ourselves too seriously, we're in for a difficult road, because you have to laugh at yourself. And the way that I get through all the painful things that I've been through in my life is dark humor. I have to laugh at it. And before we got on, I told you about that thing that my mom said. And basically, I said to my mom, oh, I know why I was around. So she has a very dark sense of humor. We're at the Mayo clinic, and she's here. She has cancer. And I said, mom, I'm thinking about writing a travel diary for this. And she goes, oh, you can call it before my mom died. And that right there is a home run to me. I think that's perfect, because, well, we're all going to die anyway, so humor has to be there, because humor also elicits joy. Humor makes you laugh. I think of the movie airplane a lot. That's my favorite movie of all time. And that movie makes more sense to me than most anything I've seen, because it's so absurd all of the time, and it's so funny. And if we take not only ourselves too seriously, but the whole world around us, again, it's going to be tough going. I think so. I think there is that line you have to walk with people, because some people are different steps in their mental health journey, and they're not comfortable with the humor around it. And so on sad times, we do have levity when appropriate. There are times where humor maybe is not appropriate, but most of the time, I firmly, firmly, firmly believe it is going back to the self deprecating humor that you were talking about a moment ago. The summer of 1995, I got really obsessed with David Letterman because I could stay up late. I didn't have to get up to go school so I could watch his show. And he is Mr. Self deprecation. That's, like, all his humor is. That and irony, all day, every day. And it really struck a chord with me, and I thought it was really funny because it also keeps people off guard. But it shows. I like that guy because he doesn't think he's better than anybody or any of that. Right? So humor is unbelievably important to me. Host/Lisa: Do you seek funny things out, or do you seek things out that make you chuckle or laugh? Kevin: Not as often as I should, actually. My favorite thing in art is sadness. And the reason I say that is sadness. When I see sadness being put back to me in art, it makes my life make sense. It makes me feel less alone. Now, I know a lot of people, they need only an escape, and their escape is, oh, I'm going to go watch a comedy. Makes sense. I think that I could do more of that. But then Frank comes in and says, well, you're not doing enough. Why are you watching that Instagram reel? You should be reading. You should be writing. Apparently arithmetic, too. Reading, writing, arithmetic. And I don't allow myself that break for that joy. But that's a mistake on my part, I think, and that's a pattern I've learned. So I do seek out certain things. I love comedy, but I think it has to be curated around what mood I'm in, if that makes any sense. Host/Lisa: No, I think I understand that completely. My thing is I don't allow myself to have fun until all the work is done. All the things on the list are all crossed off. The dishwasher is empty. Is that stuff ever all done? No. So I find myself always having a reason not to go and have the fun. So, a little bit different from funny, seeking out humor, but along the same lines. And not to blame anybody, but that was kind of ingrained in me growing up. To be successful, you got to work first and play when there's time. And I've kind of become an unfun person, I want to say. And I just wonder if, again, these are ingrained thoughts or if it's a control thing or why we get into those habits. Kevin: You. Host/Lisa: If you're loving the show, I want to hear your feedback. Take a screenshot showing your five star rating and that you're subscribed to us on Apple Podcast or are following us on Spotify. Then head over to the rising strong podcast Facebook page, hit the message button and send it my way. You'll be entered to win some rising strong swag. I will draw one name at the end of each month. Good luck, and thanks for listening. Kevin: Well, I think a couple of things. These couple thoughts come to mind with one, I think you're a fun person, so stop that bullshit. Two, the human condition. Everybody says human nature, human condition. I think one of the things in the human condition that we don't acknowledge often is overcorrection. So we see something and say, I'm going to do better or I'm going to do that more. And we overcorrect. And usually it's like a pendulum. We go way the hell over here, and then we're like, we beat ourselves up or whatever, and we start to realize through the mental health work, et cetera. Okay, we got to come back over here. Not everything's the end of the world, to use your example, if I don't empty the dishwasher before I have a glass of wine and watch airplane, the other thing is, I think I've lost it. So overcorrection is one of them. And I think that, oh, nuance. Nuance is a word that has a meaning, but that meaning does not seem to be appearing in a lot of the culture anymore. Nuance is. Do you know the US show Yellowstone? Host/Lisa: Yes. Kevin: So I watched the first episode of that, and that's all I've watched. And I got done with the episode. I said, you know what? That show doesn't have any. And it's nuanced. It's just beating you over the head with it, which is fine, but when having complicated discussions about mental health, about the way we treat ourselves, people forget about the nuance of it and that it's not all or nothing all of the time. Host/Lisa: Right? Kevin: Yes. I was told the same thing. You got to work hard to get ahead, et cetera. Yes, of course, but there are limits to that. And the easiest example I can do of that is I've got this bottle of water. There is a way that you can overdose on water. If you drink too much water, you drown your cells. So let me get back to work on that. I never learned to swim, so that'll help with that. Host/Lisa: There we go. Yeah. When we talked before as well. You said that you really struggle with self doubt and impostor syndrome. And I guess that kind of ties all into what we've been talking about here today as well. Like that Frank guy. Is he playing a role in that? Kevin: Oh, yeah. Frank is the president, CEO, CFO, COO of the Kevin Self Doubt Institute, and he has built quite a massive I. So I did a writing exercise a number of years back where I started to write a letter to Frank. Okay. So I'm typing it out, I'm writing it, and then I started to let Frank's responses get typed out. And I would quickly switch to italic and it would be Frank's response then back to me, non italic. By the end of the letter was like the last page was all italics, which is him just beating me down. Host/Lisa: Wow. Kevin: Yeah. And it went out with my Christmas card and I lost a lot of friends. I'm just kidding. I don't send Christmas cards. I've always wanted to send a Christmas card where it's just me looking very confused and angry and alone, and just send it to people and be like, happy holidays. Because I think that'd be ******* hilarious. But I digress. Host/Lisa: Well, honestly, yeah, I dare you. Double dog dare you. Kevin: I also was taught to save your money when I was a kid. So Frank says to me, see, Frank takes. Frank is not interested in nuance either. So Frank's like, you're not going to spend that money on that. What are you going to do? You're going to waste your money on a joke like that? Which wouldn't be a waste, as we just talked about for ten minutes, because it would make people laugh. And laughter is great. Host/Lisa: So true. Do you have this thought that you need to, quote unquote, fix your anxiety, fix your mental health, fix anything about you? Or have you kind of gotten to this place where this is me, this is Kevin, and I accept that. Here's me. Kevin: I think I'm probably more in the latter. I think I've spent a lot of my time trying to fix it or trying to understand it, and by understanding it, think that I have control over it, when really control is an illusion. So I think I mostly accept it. I think where that gets dangerous is. So I've been diagnosed with OCD. And to put too much of how you see yourself in your diagnosis or how you view yourself gets to be if you're accepting of it, but at the same time, say, I am OCD, Kevin, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Again, nuance over correction gets you into trouble. I feel less about needing to fix it because I have done a lot of work through therapy, through medication, working out, et cetera. That helps me balance that. And it's helped me understand that who I am is not just my anxiety, but an anxiety. I've heard a lot of my mentors or people who I look up to call it a superpower, right? So my OCD, it can be debilitating, but it also has led me to accomplish a lot of stuff because it does keep me focused and driven and et cetera. So I don't think that I necessarily need to fix it as much anymore. Although Frank is telling me, and I'm not kidding, Frank is telling me right now, no, you do need to fix it. Be honest, Kevin. You always feel like you are not doing enough. So the version of me that I like, the non frank version, right, is saying everything's okay, but there's still work that I need to do to allow myself to sit quietly with that feeling that everything is okay and not have to immediately jump on top of it and make changes to it. Does that make sense? Host/Lisa: I think so. First of all, I think, can you fire Frank? He might be the CEO, but maybe it's time to give him the boot. Kevin: I've tried. The board of directors won't let me, which is just a bunch of mini franks. The ************ cloned himself, too. And look, he's not good company, and he's not funny, but it becomes so intense that I want anything but to feel that. And I think that is kind of one of the dirty little secrets about people with severe anxiety is they know they're not in their right mind when they think, I'll do anything to not feel this. But it is very. So uncomfortable that we just want to do anything. And so what we do, which perpetuates it, is we try to fight that thought or that feeling which invites the thought to stay. And then you just start doing this instead of just sitting with the thought, right. And then letting the thought dissipate on its own. I call it the voice, then I call it the anxiety, and then I call it a world. So what I mean is, the voice will say something. Here's an example. In a workplace, my boss comes in and says, kevin, can you pop in my office for a second? Right. My voice says, she's mad at you. You're going to get fired. Which causes a feeling of anxiety. That anxiety is that unease we feel, which is actually a. What's the word I want? Evolutionary trait. Right. To save us. But it is bastardized and magnified. So then you get that feeling which causes you to create a world to stop that feeling in your brain, and it happens in like 4 seconds. So it goes, Kevin, can you come step in my office for a second? I'm going to be fired. Oh, God, what am I going to do? You start to feel something, and then all of a sudden, in the world, you're walking out after having packed a box of your stuff and being ashamed as you walk by everybody because you've lost your job. And all that happens almost always way faster than we even know it's happened. And then what happens? What happens is we, I think at least I, more often than not in my life, have clung on to the world I've created and forgotten about which. He just popped her head in my office. Even so, in this example that I go into the office and I'm like. And not literally shaking, but very afraid, and they're like, oh, we just wanted to let you know that next Tuesday we're going to be closed, whatever it may be. And you're like, oh. And so it's like a push, pull, push, pull, push, pull. And that goes on for so many people all day, every day, and often, unfortunately, because so many people are parents and they're worried about paying their bills, and they're worried about, obviously, their children, maybe other members of their family, friends. They don't even have the time or the luxury to sit back and say, well, now let's follow that train of thought in my mind there for a moment. I did this, this, and this. Oh, wow. That's what happened. I created this whole world when that world didn't exist, if that makes sense. Host/Lisa: Yeah. Been there. Been there. You and I talked about this, I think, on your podcast, and I don't know if anybody else finds it helpful, but I would ask myself, is this the end of the world? Like this thought I'm having this worry I'm having. Is this the end of the world? And most of the time, the answer was no. The world will not end if I get fired. The world will not end if the garage doesn't get organized. I know. Yes. Talk about OCD. Yes, I've had panic attacks over. The garage will not be organized by this weekend like I had planned. Yes, this is true. But in my family, we've also had the worst possible thing happen to us. I mean, we've lost a child in a car accident. And that has also changed my perspective on things as well, because, frankly, I don't think anything can compare to that. So I feel like I've been through the worst. So other than, God forbid, losing another member of my family, my son, for example, anything else is survivable, but a lot of it is perspective. Kevin: Perspective. I love that word. I love the value in perspective. Having perspective, it's one of the most valuable things in the world, but it's really there on time. Host/Lisa: Oh, 100%. Kevin: And I think the way that you and I are saying that in a very solemn, accepting way says a lot about both of us. Right. To know that we are closer to forgiving ourselves for that than we may have been, as you said, 20 or 30 years ago. To say, you know what? I didn't do as well today. I'm going to try again tomorrow. Host/Lisa: Even just being aware of Frank and know, just being aware of the negative chatter, being aware of the habits, being, you know, even after you say it, Lisa, you dumbass. Yeah, okay. That's not serving me well. Awareness, right. I'm going to try not to say that anymore. Or being aware of just the terrible things that we do for ourselves and to ourselves. I think first we have to be aware, and then we have to believe that change is possible and that a change would be in our best interest. So, for know, kicking Karen to the curb when she shows up or being able to just have that perspective on the spot, which is really hard. But when Karen shows know, it's like, okay, shut up, I'm done. Kevin: I sometimes say that out loud. I don't know if you do. Oh, I do. You're not welcome here, or shut up. And that's why I can't go to Kroger anymore. But I say it out loud because it's almost as if it's like I'm now putting my foot down and we're moving forward. Right. Host/Lisa: Right. Kevin: I love what you said about awareness and then belief. And belief is similar to hope. And if you believe that things can get better, then I think the third thing is the actions and the work. Because the thing is, people always say, well, knowing is half the battle. To which I would say, well, often with my mental health struggles, I'm the Alexander the great of half the battle. But the other half, I don't have a ******* clue. I don't know how to change it. So awareness is the first step, and it's very difficult to have the awareness. But there's also that second step. Well, I guess third step, because second step is believing, and then third step of doing the work to make the change. So you can do it differently going forward, but it's hard, man. Host/Lisa: Oh, absolutely. I think that's why a lot of us are in this club. Right? It's because it's not easy. It's not something you can read one book about or listen to one podcast episode or go to one counseling therapy session. It's an ongoing process, but I think that segues perfectly into my next question, and that is, what do you do to help yourself? Kevin: Exercise. So, when the pandemic hit, I had been going to gyms for a while, and I would do, like, the elliptical or things like that for the cardio part. Well, all the gyms closed, and I had a very stressful job at the time. And I said, well, I'm going to lose my ******* mind. And I hate running. But I was like, I got to run. So I'd start running, and I became a bit of a runner. And that helps a lot. That helps me clear my head. It helps me organize my thoughts, and it kind of tires me out. I think what a lot of people maybe who aren't as anxious don't realize about anxieties, is it is exhausting. I know somebody who has a puppy, and one of the ways that she keeps her puppy calm, especially if the weather is bad, is she gives them little puzzles to try to get the treats out because it engages their brain and it wears them out. It's the same thing with anxiety. You could see somebody sitting there all day worrying, and then they're like, God, I'm exhausted. And they're like, you didn't do anything, but your body becomes so exhausted from the use of your brain. And so running not only enriches your brain, it allows your brain to reorient itself, very much like. And so exercise is a big one for me, writing. If I am able to get over the frank Hump, I guess we'll call it, which sounds terrible, if I can get over the frank Hump and actually write. I always write to figure something out. And one of my favorite things about writing is you start to write, and then it could be a couple of sentences or a couple of paragraphs. You're writing about something you had no idea you were going to write about, because it just comes because it's allowing those thoughts to flow freely. So exercise writing, and then mental health advocacy and making sure that people through the sad Times podcast, through motivational speaking that I'm trying to do, making sure that allowing people to share their stories and be somebody who can be there to listen and serve people that way is another good, positive thing for me, because when I was a kid, I had all these racing thoughts, and I really thought, nobody's brain is like this. I'm insane. I don't know what to do. I felt so isolated, so alone. And then I found out no other people go through this. And there was such an unbelievable relief to learn that I was not the only one going through this. And it wasn't relief that others were suffering. It was relief that I was not alone. And that's why I think stories are the great healing currency of humankind, because they help us feel less alone. So I guess those things. And reading, ******* reading. I'd always rather be reading. Always. And this phone ***** that up a little bit. But sometimes I'll put the phone in another room and I'll just sit with a book for an hour or whatever. People say, oh, I don't have time for reading, to which I say, well, you can make time for reading. Host/Lisa: Yeah. Kevin: Point for me to say, for somebody who has maybe two jobs and children, right? That's different. But somebody, maybe in my position, who has no children, you can always make time for reading. And I believe that we as a society, the greatest thing we ever did as a society was not invent the wheel, although that has helped. It was public libraries, because public libraries allow people to congregate. They allow people to understand ideas they'd never thought of. I think at the Chicago public library where I used to go almost daily, there was a quote from Oprah Winfrey on the wall that said something to the effect of getting my library card was like getting my citizenship. And so reading, understanding new ideas, being challenged by ideas, it is very good for me, and I think it's good for us as a race of people. Host/Lisa: Well, I think on some level, it circles back to what you had said earlier about the power of stories. And, I mean, to me, a book is a story, even if it's not a fictitious boy meets girl, whatever, or the three little pigs. A book is still a story, even if it's all based on fact. That's all about World War II or all about politics or all about whatever. It's a story. And I think our stories are very powerful. And what I have learned in the advocacy space as well is that when we tell our story, it allows other people to feel safe telling theirs. How many times have you shared a story where you've said, gosh, I really struggle with anxiety or this or that, and somebody else says, oh, my God, me too. Let me tell you about that. Yeah. Kevin: That's so well said. And one of the great parts of stories. And being human. Host/Lisa: Yeah. So I'm going to challenge you. I'm going to say that not the greatest thing is not maybe libraries, but the old campfire when we were cave people, instead of clubbing each other over the head at night, we were maybe grunting out a story or using our stick to draw a story in the dirt, because that's how the information was brought forward. Kevin: Yes, but to satirize the years I've spent in corporate culture. But is that scalable, Lisa? Host/Lisa: No, it is not. Kevin: Good Lord. Anyway, no, I think that's a very fair point. And I take your point. I think it's. Yeah. Instead of clubbing yourself over the head with it, using the club to draw in the sand or somehow to write on the wall with it. Right. Host/Lisa: There you go. See? Look at how far we've come. Look at how far. Yeah. Kevin: I mean, we've got bottled water. We pay like $3 for it, right? Yeah. Host/Lisa: What gives you hope, Kevin? Kevin: Kindness. Kindness gives me hope above all else. I think I'll use your phrasing. It's not the end of the world that gives me hope. I think for me personally, the more I learn about how the universe was made, the more I learn about my infantile spec spot in. It gives me hope. It makes me realize now, it makes you realize not everything is that big of a deal now. I still have my emotions, I still have my reactions, et cetera. So I still struggle with that. That gives me hope. Kindness, humor, gives me hope. The fact that we are able to change gives me hope. And I think mortality gives me some hope. And what I mean by that is if you read Walt Whitman, who I adore, it helps you focus on now instead of them. And that is hopeful to me. Host/Lisa: That is powerful. You're right. Kevin: I think I fail at that most of the time, but it does help me get there when I need to. Host/Lisa: What about resilience? What does resilience mean to you? Kevin: Resilience is, again, I'm going to go back to kindness. It's forgiveness. It's quite literally persistence. Maybe I use that grammatically wrong. Literally. I wrote it down on that sheet. What else did I put down? Host/Lisa: Trying to be more empathetic. Kevin: True. Host/Lisa: Laughing at myself and the world. Kevin: True. Host/Lisa: Trying to be kind to myself. It's not easy. Kevin: It is not easy. But as I've gotten older, as I've done some work in therapy, as I've tried to make changes to my patterns, I've learned that beating myself down is the opposite of resilience, and forgiving myself is kind of quintessential resilience. But, man, is it hard. It's very difficult, yeah. Host/Lisa: But it's like riding a bike, and only in the sense that we fall down a lot when we're first learning. And we just have to keep getting on that **** thing, right? Yeah, we're all scabbed up and scarred up. You just keep getting back on it. Right. A little farther the next time before you fall off. Kevin: True. Host/Lisa: So, we haven't really talked about your podcast sad times yet. So before we wrap things up here, can you give us a little synopsis of sad times and what you do over there? Kevin: Sure. So, sad Times is a podcast that was actually born out of my one man show. I did that one man show in 2017. It was called invisible now from the Dylan lyric, you're invisible now. You got no secrets to conceal. And in the show, the idea of the show was, you know, it would be funny is if I did a show where I talked about all the weird **** I've been afraid of. And I'm talking about, like, when I was a kid, I was afraid I was going to stick my head in a tornado siren and lose my hearing, to which everybody goes, well, just don't stick your head in a tornado siren said, ah, you're missing the point. I was afraid for a good long while, I was going to die in the electric chair. I had a full on panic attack about that in Chicago. My poor dad didn't know what the **** to do. And the goal of the show was, here's my weird ****, very much like what you just said. Here's my story. And then people say, oh, my God, I feel the same way. And I partnered with a mental health organization in the city of Chicago, and I was doing the show. And after one show, I came out, there was a woman standing there with her daughter who was maybe 1819, I don't know. And she introduced herself, said, hi, my name is. And I. Shame on me. I don't remember her name. I work with Cathedral counseling, which is who I worked with, and said, this is my daughter. And I looked to my right where she was, and she had tears in her eyes. And she all. All her life, she's been trying to explain to me what's going on with her brain. And then at the end of the show, she pointed and said, that's what's happening. And that was one of the best moments of my entire life ever. Because again, it helps people feel less alone. It helps them feel less ashamed of what they're going through. And that was wonderful. So I did that show. And then a friend of mine approached me. He was trying to build a streaming channel on Twitch. He said, I want you to do your show. Said, you know, I've already done that. And then one night I got drunk and we stopped by his house. I said, all right, here's my idea. I want to have people come on the show, and I wanted them to talk about sad, difficult times in their life. And what I don't want to do is try to fix it. I don't want to diagnose it, and I don't want to judge it. I just want them to talk about it. And the goal here is to help people feel less. So it was originally a twitch streaming show, and then due to life changes having to move and stuff, we turned it into a podcast. And so each week we have a kind and generous guest come on and talk about those extremely difficult times in their life. And I know it's called sad times, but it's really about the stories and about listening, wherever you are listening to that story and hearing something and saying, oh, I thought I was the only one who felt that way. You can find us at wwW, which means worldwide web, sadtimespodcast.com or on Instagram at sadtimespodcast. At the website, you can listen all episodes. You can register to be a guest. There's some other cool stuff. We have a blog where we do guest blogs, et cetera. So that's what sad times is. Host/Lisa: Actually, I have to say, your website is very robust. Very robust. Kevin: Oh, thank you,. Host/Lisa: kevin, I have enjoyed this so much. Thank you so much for coming on today. Kevin: Thank you for having me. I truly appreciate it. And I love the work that you're doing, and you're just kicking *** and taking names. So congratulations to you and thank you so much for having me. It's an honor. So thank you. Host/Lisa: And to my listeners, stay well and be resilient, and we will catch you next time. In season two of the rising strong podcast, I'll be dropping two episodes every week. The first will be interview style, dropped on Tuesday, and the second will be a deep dive into a specific topic of mental health, which will be dropped on Fridays. So if you have a certain topic that you'd like me to discuss, please reach out. And if I use your topic or your idea, I will shout you out on social media and your name will be entered to win some sweet rising strong swag. So thanks in advance and thanks for listening!

Kev and Jonnie talk about a number of demos they have tried recently. Timings 00:00:12: Theme Tune 00:00:43: Intro 00:02:46: Feedback 00:07:29: What Have We Been Up To 00:25:41: News 00:33:12: Demo Bonanza 00:33:21: Lightyear Frontier 00:43:04: Southfield 00:50:19: Rusty’s Retirement 00:57:36: Mika And The Witch’s Mountain 01:04:11: Outro Links Rusty’s Retirement Vertical Moment Ikonei Island Info Update Kynseed Big Build Update Farming Simulator 23 Content Update #23 Outbound Steam Page Outbound Kickstarter Page Lightyear Frontier Southfield Rusty’s Retirement Mika and the Witch’s Mountain Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:00) Al: Just before we get into this week’s episode, I need to apologize. We had a few audio issues in this episode, so yeah, sorry for that. We’ll get them sorted for next time. (0:00:44) Kevin: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of the harvest season my name is Kevin, and I’m joined by our beautiful co-host (0:00:55) Kevin: There you go and today we’re here to talk about the cottagecore games whoo and all that (0:01:03) Kevin: More specifically actually we have a sampling platter of (0:01:08) Kevin: cottagecore games today because we (0:01:11) Kevin: Went out and tried some demos (0:01:14) Kevin: You know we’re gonna have I think we played with two each (0:01:20) Kevin: So there’s gonna be a yeah a good just good amount of discussion on different games (0:01:26) Kevin: But before we get into all of that (0:01:30) Kevin: Transcripts are available in the show notes and on the website as per the always (0:01:35) Kevin: And of course we’re going to get to the news and all that stuff as usual (0:01:43) Kevin: Also, oh, we should note… (0:01:44) Kevin: that Al is here in America, where I am, so, you know, I’m looking forward to hearing his misadventures. (0:01:52) Kevin: I’m just assuming he’s just smothered in burgers right now, as is the tradition. (0:02:01) Jonnie: I assume he’s smothered in tipping eggs. (0:02:05) Kevin: Oh man, yeah that’d be good, he’s just not gonna go to any restaurants, he’s gonna stick (0:02:14) Jonnie: Honestly, it would so put me off of having to travel to America is like, ‘cause A, tipping is stupid, and B, the anxiety of it, I’m just like, “Nah.” (0:02:22) Jonnie: I don’t need to deal with that. (0:02:22) Kevin: See, look, the easiest way to do it, a pro tip for all, but, well, okay, sure. (0:02:26) Jonnie: It’s not Visit America. (0:02:30) Kevin: If you are, somehow, find yourself visiting America, the pro tip is just do the credit card if you can, because then you just write it in, and nobody has to see, nobody has to know, and it’s all there. (0:02:44) Kevin: And you’ll never see them again, so, you know, it’s fine. (0:02:46) Kevin: Okay. (0:02:47) Kevin: Let’s see. (0:02:48) Kevin: stuff though, um, we actually have some feedback? (0:02:53) Jonnie: - Yeah, some feedback from, or I guess a correction from, (0:02:56) Jonnie: or corrections were the wrong thing. (0:02:57) Jonnie: Something that Al and I missed last week when we covered “Turn Up the Boy Robs a Bank” (0:03:03) Jonnie: is that there are actually accessibility options. (0:03:07) Jonnie: Neither of us picked up that those were in there and it changes quite significantly, (0:03:13) Jonnie: I think some of my criticism of the game. (0:03:17) Jonnie: So I can’t remember all of the accessibility options off the top of my head, (0:03:20) Jonnie: but I talked a lot about how I really hated the way (0:03:24) Jonnie: that gaming works in the game. (0:03:25) Jonnie: And one of the accessibility options is automatic aiming, (0:03:28) Jonnie: which I think is a really good accessibility option for this game. (0:03:29) Kevin: Yeah, oh that is a good (0:03:32) Jonnie: If you’re into the “Turn Up the Boy” sort of law, I guess, (0:03:37) Jonnie: and want to experience it, (0:03:38) Jonnie: like it feels like a good option for that. (0:03:41) Jonnie: So just want to highlight that that’s something that we missed and it’s a cool thing that they have. (0:03:42) Kevin: Yeah (0:03:47) Kevin: Yeah, absolutely cuz like you mentioned the calm I I’m the claim I didn’t play turn of boy myself, but my brother played and I witnessed most of it (0:03:56) Kevin: the combat is the weaker portion, right the the highlights the humor and the (0:04:03) Kevin: You know the chaoticness going on so kind of sidestepping that that was a good call (0:04:09) Kevin: Yeah, so good good stuff turn it boy good on you first (0:04:14) Jonnie: Yeah, and the other thing that we’ve got to talk about, so Elle and I talked about this last week, Kiv, but it would be sacrilegious to not get your take on what you think about wildflowers being on the April 1st. (0:04:27) Kevin: Well, first, my reaction, and I think I put it in the slash, is 3 and a half grand! (0:04:35) Kevin: Oh my goodness, I had no idea, like, oh my gosh, I know Apple products are pricey/overpriced, but holy moly. (0:04:44) Kevin: Now, I didn’t, I have to see the, what the farming looked like. (0:04:50) Kevin: Looks like it’s an interesting way of doing it, but I think all in all that sounds good. (0:04:55) Kevin: It’s, it’s so weird though because like, Wildflowers is very narrative/character driven, right? (0:05:05) Kevin: Which isn’t generally speaking the focus in a first-person/VR type game, but like you guys said, it, (0:05:12) Jonnie: So have you seen have you seen how the implementation? (0:05:16) Kevin: here, let me look, I’m gonna look it up right now, but I mean, overall though, I think it’s (0:05:20) Kevin: good to do it. I do think VR/augmented reality is a good idea overall. I think we’ll get there eventually, and so, you know, each baby step like this in different formats or different ways is, (0:05:42) Jonnie: Yeah, because I guess how it works is it’s less first person and it’s more like having it up on a screen, you know, kind of like one of the many screens that you can place around with the (0:05:50) Kevin: Right. Okay. That’s what the farming looks like. Okay. All right. Yeah, that’s what it is. Okay, that is (0:05:51) Jonnie: Apple Vision Pro and you can… (0:06:01) Kevin: It looks pretty cool. Um, I (0:06:05) Kevin: like the (0:06:07) Kevin: Yeah, no the farming bit look yeah, obviously like putting it in a (0:06:13) Kevin: On a screen like that is the way to go (0:06:16) Kevin: And the farming having the plots because it’s very the (0:06:21) Kevin: simple and very square slash grid like right so I think this is a good one for that (0:06:28) Kevin: because it’d be so easy to control you like it there’s not a lot of (0:06:34) Kevin: difficulties in in managing the farming aspect so that’s cool um and on top of that eventually you can automate some of that stuff so you can just skip it out right um but yeah now that looks uh Looks great. It’s I’m so happy (0:06:51) Kevin: Wildflowers is getting a second third win whatever whatever win we’re at (0:06:56) Kevin: With the the small DLC update and now this vision pro stuff (0:07:01) Kevin: I’m curious how much longer they’re gonna keep up the development (0:07:05) Kevin: But I’m here (0:07:08) Kevin: You know, I’m here for the long haul. I haven’t fired it up in a while immediately But I’ll wait till they announce maybe they’re done with everything and then see what’s going on (0:07:18) Kevin: All right (0:07:20) Kevin: Okay, so that’s that some of the (0:07:23) Kevin: House cleaning with the tend to from last episode, but now let’s talk about what we’ve been up to more recently Johnny I’ll let you go first. What have you been up to? (0:07:31) Jonnie: What have I been up to? (0:07:34) Jonnie: Because there’s been a lot of demos and trying out a lot of stuff, I feel like I’ve sort of reverted back to some comfy kind of nostalgia games in the past week. (0:07:43) Jonnie: I’ve been playing Diablo 4, partly because it’s something that I can play with friends and I moved countries recently, so it’s a nice game to do that. (0:07:54) Jonnie: But maybe more funnily, the reason we started playing Diablo 4 is because Diablo 4 has been the news a lot in the last week because they’ve been doing (0:08:01) Jonnie: very expensive cosmetic items that has generated a lot of media attention and I keep seeing headlines like Diablo 4 enters microtransaction hell and it’s silly things right like your town portal can change colour and I think it’s like you know 50 bucks or whatever for that cosmetic and it’s not entirely fair framing because I believe it comes with some of their (0:08:27) Jonnie: Premium or quite a bit of their premium currency as well (0:08:31) Jonnie: So you can can purchase other things but the thing that’s really kind of striking to me is the (0:08:38) Jonnie: The narrative around this is kind of describing it like it’s a bad thing look, if there are people out there that want to pay $50 for a (0:08:48) Jonnie: Cosmetic item that has like it’s not even on your character as you’re running around playing the game It’s literally the thing that you use to get to and from (0:08:56) Jonnie: locations. It’s not that significant in the game. And if people want to spend that amount… (0:09:01) Jonnie: for that cosmetic and that enables the developer. And I’m putting aside who the developer is and all of those sorts of things because I don’t really want to get into that discussion. But if this extends the life of the game and they’re doing seasonal gameplay and… (0:09:13) Kevin: What’s there to discuss about Activision Blizzard? (0:09:17) Jonnie: Yeah, let’s just avoid that one altogether. But if people want to pay a lot for those sort of things, and it means I as a casual player jumping in feel no need to spend money on any of that and it means I can keep investing in (0:09:31) Jonnie: developing new content for these games then great like I feel as a just for the campaign portion of the game it is fully justified as a full press game I had a lot of fun playing the campaign and if this is how they want to monetize the long life of the game go for it like the game is still very fun I have a good time of the I have a good time playing with friends I just find a lot of the narrative around ongoing monetization if we accept that that is part of the reality of games now this is (0:10:01) Jonnie: probably the least predatory way to do (0:10:04) Kevin: Oh absolutely. My two questions are, one, all the news I heard about what little I did was about the cosmetic stuff, but is there any stuff that boosts gameplay or effects mechanics or anything like that? Okay. Okay. Yeah. (0:10:22) Jonnie: no no so so it’s all yeah it’s all purchasable cosmetics yeah none of it really affects gameplay (0:10:34) Kevin: Okay, well then that’s yeah, all right who cares then also can you earn premium currency by playing or do you just have? (0:10:44) Jonnie: uh I feel like you can but I also feel like you earn even and I might be wrong um but I feel like even if you do earn premium currency it’s at a rate that’s so slow that you might as well not earn it at all because you would have to like I don’t know how you would actually save up enough of it to purchase anything uh but I can’t remember if that premium currency is actually locked behind um like a paid season pass thing so I can’t remember if it’s locked behind (0:11:04) Kevin: It’s a word. (0:11:14) Jonnie: a slightly different version of a paywall or if those are some of the the free tiers (0:11:22) Kevin: Right. Okay. Well, they, uh, like you said, who cares, right? It’s cosmetic. (0:11:26) Kevin: So whatever. (0:11:27) Jonnie: Exactly (0:11:29) Jonnie: And maybe i’m just like slightly biased, you know, because you and I both play marvel snap and that’s their approach as well Right you you generally you don’t pay to unlock cards Well, you cannot do like spending money on the game does increase the rate that you unlock cards somewhat, but not (0:11:34) Kevin: Yeah. (0:11:44) Kevin: Right, but it’s not explicitly you don’t pay money for a card exactly. It’s generally speaking just a (0:11:53) Kevin: cosmetic that happens to get you resources that can help you generate new parts, but (0:11:59) Kevin: But yeah, no, no. Yeah, I understand (0:12:04) Kevin: I guess like I think about you know Marvel snap is actually a very apt comparison because there’s (0:12:10) Kevin: Explicitly the price tag a hundred dollar bundles. I think there’s one going (0:12:13) Jonnie: Mm-hmm, yep. (0:12:14) Kevin: on right now. And yeah it doesn’t bother me like sometimes it’s a really cool one that I kind of wish I had but it’s not the end of the world there’s plenty the game is still fun doesn’t affect it and there’s plenty of other cool cosmetics I can earn but yeah no I get you um good yeah all right good way of doing it I (0:12:39) Jonnie: Yeah, and and like so to kind of come back to the actual game you know, I’m having a lot of fun with Diablo as just a thing to jump on with friends and kill a bunch of stuff and (0:12:48) Jonnie: You know have a good time. And I think the thing that I really appreciate about Diablo 4 is level scaling So the they have level scaling so it doesn’t matter what level you are. You can play with your friends and it’s a really nice version (0:13:03) Jonnie: Yeah, so you can play with your friends like when we’re playing, you know, one of our friends was level 90 I think I was the lowest level, I was like. (0:13:09) Jonnie: At level 90, he was significantly more powerful than I was even though the mobs were sort of scaled for us, as you would expect. (0:13:21) Jonnie: But I think that’s kind of fine, right? (0:13:23) Jonnie: We were able to sort of play together and not have it be where I wasn’t doing anything, but he was also able to enjoy the fact that he had put a lot more time and effort into building a more powerful character. (0:13:37) Jonnie: I thought it’s it’s a really nice (0:13:42) Kevin: That’s that’s pretty impressive because that’s a very difficult balancing act to do (0:13:47) Jonnie: Yeah. (0:13:51) Jonnie: Yeah, and then the other thing I’ve been dipping my toe back into is Old School RuneScape. (0:13:56) Jonnie: I played Old School RuneScape when it was just RuneScape, and I love dipping my toe back into it every once in a while. (0:14:00) Kevin: - Yeah. (0:14:05) Jonnie: It’s such a goofy game. I love it. (0:14:06) Kevin: Oh man. (0:14:10) Kevin: It’s such a very distinct flavor. (0:14:13) Kevin: I was actually thinking about dipping back in just last week. (0:14:17) Kevin: I don’t remember why, but I might do that then. (0:14:20) Jonnie: Do it, Kiv. (0:14:22) Jonnie: Send me your username and I will add you and we can see each other online and oh my god, okay. (0:14:26) Kevin: Yeah. (0:14:27) Jonnie: I don’t know that you were an old-school RuneScape person, but please, please. (0:14:30) Kevin: Yeah, the middle, that was definitive middle school gaming. (0:14:37) Kevin: Yeah, what’d you do in the computer lab when you had the time or nobody caught you or whatever? (0:14:37) Jonnie: Exactly, yep, that was that was the A draw. (0:14:46) Jonnie: Oh, well maybe at some point we should do a greenhouse episode on Old School. (0:14:47) Kevin: Yeah, good stuff. (0:14:50) Kevin: I was thinking that I was about to say that stay tuned for Stay tuned for our RuneScape greenhouse! (0:14:56) Jonnie: Oh, yes. (0:14:58) Jonnie: Great. (0:14:59) Jonnie: Cool, alright, we’ll leave that one there then. (0:15:02) Kevin: I have a few things to talk about in the next episode of the M1C, but the M1C will be in the next episode of the M1C, but the M1C will be in the next episode of the M1C. (0:15:04) Jonnie: Kip, what have you been playing? (0:15:08) Kevin: Okay, it’s been a minute since I’ve been on, so I’ve got a few things. Actually, all the stuff kind of was in the last week. (0:15:16) Kevin: I’ve been playing a lot of games, I guess. (0:15:18) Kevin: First, shout out to Rainbow Road Radio, the Mario podcast host with mutual friend Alex. (0:15:24) Kevin: We covered Mario vs Donkey Kong, which came out just yesterday, well, from the time of M1C. (0:15:30) Kevin: I did not purchase the game myself, Alex did, but I played the demo. (0:15:36) Kevin: Have you played any of the Mario vs Donkey Kong games at all, Jonny? (0:15:40) Jonnie: I don’t even think I’ve ever heard of a Mario vs Donkey Kong game. (0:15:46) Kevin: Okay. So, it is, so right, the original Donkey Kong arcade game, right? The debut of both Mario and Donkey Kong. (0:15:56) Kevin: If they reinvented re-imag- I won’t even say that. (0:16:00) Kevin: This game was originally on the Game Boy Advance. They did a remake for the Switch, that’s what we discussed. (0:16:09) Kevin: It is a puzzle kind of platformer game. Essentially, you’re presented with a level with platforms and obstacles like spike pits, jumps you have to make, switches, things like that. (0:16:30) Kevin: It’s not a horizontal scrolling type level like standard mario’s, it’s just one screen. (0:16:38) Kevin: And you have to figure out the puzzle of how do I get to the key, what order do I have to clear these obstacles or flip these switches, and then you get the key to the door. (0:16:50) Kevin: And that’s kind of the gist of the gameplay. It’s fairly straightforward, but they add a lot of depth, they add a lot of obstacles and stuff like that. (0:16:58) Kevin: Um, the Switch Remake specifically… (0:17:00) Kevin: It’s very nice presentation (0:17:04) Kevin: The the game is the premise is centered around these little toys called mini marios (0:17:11) Kevin: So a lot of the games (0:17:13) Kevin: Enemies and things like that are toy versions of Mario enemies very cute very reminiscent of Link’s Awakening remake art style (0:17:22) Kevin: very colorful and fun I enjoyed the demo Alex enjoyed the game that he played thus far (0:17:30) Kevin: Yeah, check that out. That was that’s a fun one (0:17:34) Jonnie: Nice. I might have to check that out. I love a puzzle. (0:17:34) Kevin: aside from that (0:17:38) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s great and they added new stuff for the remake right so it’s got a substantial amount (0:17:45) Kevin: It’s not just a short GBA (0:17:49) Kevin: Venture Yeah, I definitely recommend at least people should check out the the trailers and stuff just to see how the cute little mini marios are (0:17:59) Jonnie: or people should check out rich road radio rainbow road radio (0:18:00) Kevin: And (0:18:04) Kevin: That your rainbow Road radio, that’s correct. No, don’t worry. I’ll be plugging that later (0:18:12) Kevin: Aside from that Disney speedstorm have you heard of this one Johnny? (0:18:16) Jonnie: I have not heard of this. (0:18:19) Kevin: Okay, it is a (0:18:22) Kevin: Just came out last year. I believe it is Disney’s version of Mario Kart. Um, it’s part racing game with Disney (0:18:30) Kevin: here’s okay, so (0:18:33) Kevin: it’s (0:18:35) Kevin: It I’m two ways about it because on the one hand the actual racing is fantastic It’s a strong Mario Kart type game the if you’re a big fan of Disney, you’ll get even more enjoyment out of it (0:18:49) Kevin: With the music tracks the characters pretty wide variety of characters. They have Pixar and Disney, but here’s the kicker (0:18:57) Kevin: It’s free to play which do hey, that’s cool. You don’t spend money (0:19:00) Kevin: But it is slathered with loot boxes, season pass, microtransactions, just filled to the brim with it. (0:19:13) Kevin: And it’s not prohibitive, but you do have to know how to invest your resources. (0:19:23) Kevin: Because you get plenty of resources, basically the kicker is you have to level up your characters, (0:19:28) Kevin: racers that affects their stats and that actually (0:19:31) Kevin: does affect your performance in races, including the single player. (0:19:35) Kevin: In fact, I would say primarily the single player, which is what I’ve been playing. (0:19:41) Kevin: And so getting the resources is the challenge. (0:19:44) Kevin: You have to win certain races, do certain objectives, get from boxes, yada, yada. (0:19:51) Kevin: So it is a limited amount you get, at least like daily, but if you just invest them smartly, you can get through the races. (0:19:58) Kevin: Okay, but so you know (0:20:01) Kevin: That’s kind of a bummer how grindy you can feel at times But the grind is fun because the game itself is really fun They it as you can expect from disney money. The presentation is pretty stellar like I said the (0:20:15) Kevin: All the visuals the audio is good. They got (0:20:19) Kevin: Not every voice actor but a good majority of them. They didn’t get you know, john goodman for sully, but uh (0:20:27) Kevin: They got ariel’s voice actress, which is pretty cool. Um (0:20:31) Kevin: And i’m a big disney fan. So i’m uh, i’m thoroughly enjoying the game. Um (0:20:37) Kevin: and it’s like on every console or Platform whatever and you can move your account and all that good stuff. Um (0:20:46) Kevin: so I uh I I I enjoy I kind of recommend it if you’re a big disney fan in particular (0:20:56) Jonnie: This sounds like the sort of game that in a different stage of my life I would have got very into and it’s more that I just don’t have space for another like daily check-in game in my life at the moment. (0:21:06) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, now that’s understandable um I (0:21:10) Jonnie: And how would you say the racing compares to like a Mario? (0:21:12) Kevin: I think (0:21:14) Kevin: Overall the the pacing is faster in general. There’s a big emphasis on boosting and has a boosting mechanic (0:21:24) Kevin: The number of power-ups are (0:21:29) Kevin: They’re general. I don’t know if they’re smaller the actual amount, but they’re less impactful. Let’s say right (0:21:34) Kevin: There’s no blue (0:21:36) Kevin: Shell or lightning. There’s nothing super chaotic like the most (0:21:40) Kevin: There’s a shield you can get there. You can fire like a homing disc (0:21:46) Kevin: They do put some fun twists on it because the power-ups you can actually (0:21:52) Kevin: Have variations some you can charge up (0:21:55) Kevin: You can hold the button down and charge up the power-up to do something different some you can throw backwards others. You can’t (0:22:02) Kevin: uh… and most interestingly uh… every character (0:22:06) Kevin: has a unique uh… power-up uh… that matches their character right um… so for instance uh… ariel has a really fun one when you use her special skill she uh… (0:22:19) Kevin: these little uh… (0:22:21) Kevin: the trinkets and artifacts uh… just uh… spawn on the racetrack and if you collect them you get a higher top speed which is cute uh… there’s other ones like stitch he’ll just start blasting all her crazy like with his ray gun. (0:22:36) Kevin: Sully will roar at people and it’s just cute to see the ones that they do and how they match each character. (0:22:46) Kevin: But yeah, overall it feels less chaotic than a Mario Kart because Mario Kart is just utter chaos with everything flying around. (0:22:58) Kevin: It is a bit more straightforward racing but still enjoyable. (0:23:06) Kevin: And one more I’ve got to talk about, Moonstone Island. (0:23:10) Kevin: Funnily enough, you guys talked about the update last week. (0:23:16) Kevin: I was playing before the update dropped, I didn’t even know it was coming. (0:23:20) Kevin: You can see there was an update on Steam. (0:23:22) Kevin: I have actually not hit credits, I don’t know if you can hit credits in the game, but I completed a full year and defeated the final boss. (0:23:30) Kevin: I did a whole episode on that and I think my feelings are more or less… (0:23:36) Kevin: They added the marriage and that was fine, but it’s not enough to change the entirety of the game. (0:23:44) Kevin: There’s still a lot I like about the game, but there’s also a lot that it feels lacking. (0:23:50) Kevin: But hopefully they’ll keep updating it and we’ll see it get to a better place. (0:23:54) Kevin: The one thing I will definitely give them props for is the monster design. (0:24:00) Kevin: The hands down winner, the new ones they added, is called… (0:24:06) Kevin: …the bread mouse. It is a toaster with a piece of toast in it with a little face on it and the toast will pop out. (0:24:16) Kevin: But yeah, I still kinda recommend it. I went back to it, right? (0:24:22) Kevin: There’s enough for me to actually go through the whole year. (0:24:24) Kevin: Yeah. (0:24:26) Jonnie: And that’s a big thing, I guess, you know, in this year or, you know, in modern time. (0:24:32) Jonnie: Going back to a game is a really good sign, because there’s so many games that we get to play, (0:24:40) Jonnie: and you can try something and be like, “Oh, that was fun,” but you never really feel the need to go back to it, and you’ll be scrolling through your library, and you’ll be like, “Oh, (0:24:46) Jonnie: I never went back to that.” And you kind of realize, like, while it was fun, there wasn’t that hook to pull you back. So anything that can do that, I think, is a solution. (0:24:50) Kevin: Yeah, yep, yep, there’s something almost like I keep going back because I want it to be good right like I had fun going through the bosses and everything the last fight is actually very challenging but I just I still wish there was like a story giving me a reason that I’m hiding this thing. Oh, you know, I’m just gonna spoil (0:24:56) Jonnie: It’s kind of a pretty good game. (0:25:20) Kevin: it for anyone who cares the boss’s name is missing no actually just straight up missing no like Pokemon’s missing number but but yeah so that and hey I did I can pat myself on the back and close it for now unless something update comes. Ah, but yeah, that’s what I’ve been up to a lot of stuff and speaking of a lot of stuff we got news actually I don’t think it’s that much news but we got some items here so let’s let’s get into it first up. (0:25:50) Kevin: Alpone Island, yeah, console releases are still coming, but we don’t have any date yet, (0:25:57) Kevin: and they’re doing improvements to the UI, which is always good. (0:26:02) Kevin: I feel like, oh man, UI design, it’s so critical, but it feels so underappreciated, even just from the dev side, but you know, so I do appreciate them putting some effort on that. (0:26:20) Jonnie: Yeah, so I guess the key to this one is that they kind of recognize that their launch on Steam was a little bit rocky. (0:26:25) Jonnie: They got kind of hit with a few bugs that were probably unexpected. (0:26:29) Jonnie: And so they’re just calling out that they’re still fully intending to do their console launches, (0:26:34) Jonnie: but also recognizing that it’s probably going to take a bit more work than they initially intended. (0:26:38) Jonnie: So no official date as of yet, but I really appreciate this sort of communication. (0:26:45) Jonnie: and probably unsurprising that when you have a launch on Steam. (0:26:50) Jonnie: And you get hit with some bugs that you didn’t expect like, it’s not only that it can be disappointing sort of, you know, that that happens and disappointing commercially, but it could also be like it’s just hard right when you put a lot of time, effort and love into into a game like this. (0:27:05) Jonnie: And, you know, it’s very hard to predict we all know that building games is difficult. (0:27:11) Jonnie: So, I think it’s a good sign that they’re taking the time and not putting the additional pressure on to, to get the, to get those things done. (0:27:12) Kevin: Oh yeah, absolutely. (0:27:18) Kevin: Yeah, absolutely yeah, and even just in this (0:27:24) Kevin: Cottage cord subspace there’s plenty of games, so there’s definitely no need to rush (0:27:30) Kevin: I agree, it’s good for them to be clear for one to folk it to (0:27:36) Kevin: Plan things out like this right like they’re gonna delay it and to be clear about it (0:27:41) Kevin: So I (0:27:42) Kevin: Think that’s a sign of a good developer. So, you know, I hoped for that console release eventually (0:27:49) Kevin: Kinseed has a what they call the big build update Great. (0:27:58) Jonnie: Yeah, so the the big build update is hot now and I guess the key to this one is it introduces farm customization (0:28:06) Kevin: Yeah, uh (0:28:08) Kevin: So I have not honestly I have not seen that much about (0:28:13) Kevin: But boy that art is beautiful. It is wow that’s some lovely lovely pixel art (0:28:19) Kevin: Yeah farm customization is the big one. They have actually they have a big list of stuff on Steam you can see (0:28:27) Kevin: They even adjusted some of the story pacing (0:28:31) Kevin: Let me see. Oh, that’s cool NPC a talent system for NPC That’s really cool improvements to their progress screen (0:28:41) Kevin: You can (0:28:44) Kevin: Not just customize it not just not visual customization for the farm, but actual structures that can improve (0:28:52) Kevin: like your shelters for your animals and (0:28:57) Kevin: Things to make travel and commerce easier. Um, if this is a pretty hearty update. Oh batch crafting. There’s the (0:29:04) Kevin: That’s the one everyone loves (0:29:06) Kevin: That’s a lot of that’s a lot of that’s a big update. I appreciate that. I’m gonna have to check this out This is some really pretty art. I totally forgotten about this one I don’t like and like I said, that is out now already on Steam. Is it anywhere else? (0:29:18) Kevin: I don’t remember but at there at least on Steam, okay (0:29:22) Kevin: Let’s see next up. We have oh, this is fun one a game called outbound (0:29:31) Kevin: Let’s read the blurb shall we (0:29:35) Kevin: Build your own home (0:29:36) Kevin: Come on wheels and live sustainably off-grid Craft workstations and power supplies Source energy from the sun, wind, or water Upgrade and customize your vehicle Grow crops, automate your production, and explore a colorful world That’s a lot of stuff to do from a vehicle (0:29:54) Jonnie: look this game looks incredible so so I guess the the shorter summary we’ll keep just read out is you’re driving around in a in a minivan that you live in and you can customize I’ll put a note down here that I well I was on board before this but the moment that got Al was they built an insane structure on top of the campervan which I think is amazing from what they’ve shown you know being able drive around the world, dick out. (0:30:24) Jonnie: The game is a bit of a game, but it’s a bit of a game. (0:30:32) Kevin: Yeah, it’s a very pleasant visual style too, it’s full 3D cell shaded, I think is probably the best way, or closest approximation, I would say. (0:30:47) Kevin: This is very interesting, right? Because so many farm games, they’re centered around the farm or the base, right? (0:30:56) Kevin: But this one’s mobile, so, like, how, that will make sense. (0:31:02) Kevin: This will make, I assume, traversing between different little mini bases, because they show you can build structures on the ground and stuff, so I assume you can build little buildings and things like that. (0:31:13) Kevin: I wonder how big the map will be if you have a car, like, there’s a lot of potential there. (0:31:18) Kevin: It looks like wind turbines on the top of this thing. Oh, that’s great. I hope you can go really high, I want it to look absurdly ridiculous. (0:31:30) Jonnie: And it’s I guess in terms of like this game is being announced. They have a (0:31:35) Jonnie: Kickstarter page like but no no campaign launch or launch date. So probably just want to keep our eyes on (0:31:46) Kevin: Um, all right, so that is, again, Outbound, that’s a fun looking one. (0:31:52) Kevin: Um, and actually, that’s it. (0:31:55) Kevin: I think we’ve covered most of the news. (0:31:55) Jonnie: Oh we got one more one more (0:31:58) Kevin: Well, one more by yes, but I’ll let you take this one. (0:31:59) Jonnie: We’ve got farming some farming simulator farming simulator 23. Yeah, you scroll past it (0:32:02) Kevin: Wait, what? (0:32:04) Kevin: Oh, oh, I missed it. (0:32:04) Kevin: You’re right. (0:32:05) Kevin: I skipped it. (0:32:05) Kevin: Yeah, I did. (0:32:08) Kevin: Wait, they do content updates for these guys. (0:32:10) Jonnie: Yes, they do lots of content updates for farming simulator they’ve got all the farming freaks and (0:32:14) Kevin: I thought each year was the con- (0:32:16) Kevin: content of the- laughs (0:32:17) Jonnie: No, there are there are updates within the content updates (0:32:22) Jonnie: So this one introduces a new to. (0:32:25) Jonnie: a new video. (0:32:36) Kevin: And no (0:32:40) Kevin: I do enjoy seeing the reactions from the people who are fans, right like (0:32:46) Kevin: the I remember years back when they finally brought John Deere into farming simulator just the (0:32:54) Kevin: the (0:32:56) Kevin: The height was (0:32:58) Kevin: Through roof from the farm simulator community (0:33:03) Kevin: That’s that’s pretty fun (0:33:05) Kevin: All right, yeah, the boat (0:33:07) Kevin: I’ll put an exclamation point. I wonder if he knows who that is. I don’t know that company (0:33:13) Kevin: Alright, let’s just get into the demos Johnny. I’ll let you take the first one. That’s I chair to the class what what demos you’ve been (0:33:22) Jonnie: So I guess the first one that I’ll kick off with is Lightyear Frontier. (0:33:26) Jonnie: And as I wrote that down, I’m actually questioning, is that the name of the game? (0:33:29) Jonnie: Because we’re in the classic word salad of games where you start looking at things, (0:33:38) Jonnie: and then you wonder, is that right? Or is it something else? (0:33:42) Jonnie: It is… Yeah. Right. (0:33:42) Kevin: This is not one lonely outpost or whatever that one’s called. That’s the other space future one [laughs] (0:33:52) Jonnie: So yeah, so Lightyear Frontier is the mech space farming game. (0:34:00) Jonnie: And actually, having played the demo, I feel like farming or cottagecore game (0:34:05) Jonnie: is maybe not quite the right description. To me, it feels maybe more similar to (0:34:17) Jonnie: like a survival game. So the premise is you are dropped on a planet with (0:34:22) Jonnie: your mech and you are the only thing on there. I think part of it is the intent is maybe more for like do it with friends, right? So there might be three or four of you and you explore the planet and sort of build and establish a base more so than a farm. Like farming is definitely an element of it, but I guess that’s kind of the core base of the (0:34:42) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, it definitely feels more, as you said, survival as great like no man’s sky or perhaps power. (0:35:00) Kevin: But okay, tell me how is the mech though, right? Because that’s that’s the differential to the star of the show How does it feel oh? (0:35:08) Jonnie: the mech is unfortunately disappointing and there’s one very clear reason for it and I get where they’re going I just don’t think it works in execution so what happens with the mech is you know it can jump higher you can get in and out of the mech so you’re not always in the mech and there are elements where you need to be outside of it but what happens I think in order to sort of limit traversal around the world as the mech is not great. (0:35:12) Kevin: No (0:35:39) Jonnie: If you are on unstable ground, it is highly likely to fall over and then you need to get out and you need to right the mech. (0:35:40) Kevin: Oh, no. (0:35:47) Jonnie: I get why they want to limit some of the traversal. (0:35:52) Jonnie: I assume it might be that you can get a higher jump or a longer boost later in the game, but it just doesn’t feel great. (0:36:04) Jonnie: You know to me part of what I want to feel when I’m in a mix is like I am like (0:36:08) Jonnie: Human plus and in many ways it feels like you’re a human - we (0:36:12) Kevin: Right, absolutely, like, I’m looking at the trailer and one thing I’m seeing is that the actions you do from the map feel very similar to what you could do in any other sort of survival game, right, collecting resources, planting, etc, etc. (0:36:36) Kevin: And, I mean, obviously the visuals match the Mac you’re using tools and gadgets. (0:36:42) Kevin: And what not to do it. But like you say, when you’re when I’m in a mech, I’d want to be more than human plus I want to be outrageously absurdly powerful and doing nonsense right like I just want to low, if I’m going to clear a lane, I want to do it just in till a field I want to do it in just one button push, you know, something like that, something absurd and over the top. (0:37:06) Kevin: And I’m not really seeing that, which is unfortunate. (0:37:08) Jonnie: Yeah, and I didn’t really feel that in the gameplay, so that was unfortunate. (0:37:14) Kevin: Yeah, what about the the rest of it right? (0:37:18) Jonnie: So I think the rest of it… So I think it’s well known that I’m not a particularly big fan of survival games, (0:37:24) Jonnie: but I even feel that in the realm of survival games, this one suffers from not really having a clear identity of what it is. (0:37:36) Jonnie: So if I think about something like you know the classic Minecraft, Minecraft is all built around the creativity aspect of what can you build and what can you do in this world. There’s no narrative element, it’s just come up with whatever narrative you want but this is the game which is great for what they’re doing. Something like Pylia is like hey go out into the world and beat these bosses right so there’s there is more of a here’s an objective of a thing to do. Now you can talk about how good it is at doing that but it’s (0:38:08) Jonnie: very clearly there. In Lightyear Frontier there is a narrative aspect that is so you’ve got an AI (0:38:22) Jonnie: counterpart that’s like watching over you and giving you guidance I guess is is probably the way to describe it and you’re landed on a planet there’s some allusions to you know like why didn’t humanity come here and you know explore this planet and you know you’re gonna clean up some of it (0:38:38) Jonnie: but it doesn’t feel particularly like the narrative doesn’t feel particularly compelling or strong like there was a few quests that kind of were meant to introduce it to you but they kind of just feel like they appeared and I didn’t really feel like I had a compelling reason to go and do those I didn’t care about completing the quests right like it was more just like here’s a task to complete and then on the other side I didn’t get that like the building side of it (0:39:08) Jonnie: and I didn’t feel strong enough that I was like oh but like that I could see how I want to build out this planet it more felt like kind of just standard base building stuff so to me it felt stuck between all of the different aspects of what a survival game could be and just wasn’t really (0:39:28) Kevin: Yeah, I again, looking at the trailer, I can I can get that like, I think a concern just from looking at it, the house you can build is like a little wood cottage type ranch home and in a mech game, you know, I’d hope for a big hulking metal robot base. (0:39:50) Kevin: So I can see that it feels like they’re trying to go in two different directions. They’re going through all the usual trappings of these survival. (0:39:58) Kevin: Type games, but they’re trying to do this next stuff, but not enough. So that’s that’s a tad unfortunate, like, honestly, just looks like a more colorful no man’s sky again. (0:40:11) Jonnie: Yeah. I don’t know that I have a huge amount else to say on this game, and I guess my takeaway is, (0:40:19) Jonnie: you know, sometimes you play a game and you’re like, “I didn’t enjoy that, but I know the sorts of people that would enjoy it, right? I know who I would recommend the game to.” Unfortunately, (0:40:28) Jonnie: with my time with Lightyear Frontier, I kind of left it thinking, “I don’t know who this game is for.” It feels too much like we built a thing where, you know, it’s sort of like Mad Libs. (0:40:41) Jonnie: And I guess that’s probably something we should say maybe not right up front, because now that we’re a little bit into the conversation, but there’s a huge possibility that these things could change, (0:41:09) Jonnie: All right, um (0:41:11) Jonnie: And I think for me the thing that would need to change with lightyear frontier (0:41:14) Jonnie: In order for me to go back in is I would want to hear about this game having a clear direction in terms of what it is whether that’s adding a lot more narratively or you know really going into what it means to clean up the planet and to (0:41:30) Jonnie: Build a base or do whatever the thing is that you’re aiming to do on this planet (0:41:34) Jonnie: Uh, I would just like to see more of a direct (0:41:40) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s unfortunate and they have the big hook they have the mech right like if they got in all in on that right like (0:41:50) Kevin: customize it to be just (0:41:52) Kevin: Ridiculously different builds or whatever right like I think of you know armor court six I don’t know if you’re familiar with that that was the big mech game from from software (0:42:01) Kevin: Like that’s the sort of thing. I want to see from Mecca’s (0:42:04) Jonnie: And I think that’s a really good sort of like point to raise is that, you know, and I think we talked about this a few weeks ago, the tools just kind of feel like the tools that you would have anywhere else like it doesn’t feel like they’re really taking advantage of the of the mech and some of the cool things that it could do, you know, you’ve got this big open game, give us a, you know, a super fast boost. (0:42:26) Jonnie: Like, I’ve not played Armoured Core 6, but I’ve seen the gameplay of Armoured Core 6, and you kind of take all of the aspects of that game. (0:42:31) Kevin: right like yep (0:42:35) Jonnie: And you delete them. And that’s what playing a mech in this game feels like. (0:42:39) Kevin: yep yep oh man that’s that’s disappointing but uh it is still technically early access so you know who knows maybe one day we’ll we’ll see improvements maybe they’ll hear this episode down the ground grapevine and then then then then they’ll go all day but um all right there you go Well, that’s lightyear frontier. (0:43:00) Jonnie: - Yes, that’s my first tempo. (0:43:01) Kevin: All right, I want to talk about Southfield. (0:43:02) Jonnie: Kip, what’s your… (0:43:08) Kevin: So we covered this relatively recently on the podcast last time I was on with Al. (0:43:14) Kevin: They’re hook, they’re premise. (0:43:16) Kevin: It is a physics-based farming, your cottagecore type game. (0:43:21) Kevin: It is, so if you watch the trailer, see the images. (0:43:25) Kevin: You can see just from the visual style what they’re going for. (0:43:28) Kevin: You’re playing as this very (0:43:31) Kevin: round colorful I call it gun gumdrop creature um with goofy cartoony eyes and and just like no fingers or whatever just brown ball hands and this demo is fascinating because (0:43:48) Kevin: unlike other demos it’s not a they’re up clear about it up they’re clear and upfront about it it’s not a like example of a level or whatever this is kind of a (0:44:01) Kevin: proof of concept they want to uh show what they want to go for that’s how they describe it now that said the it is a fairly robust and complete uh demo uh it is very large and the kicker is you can’t save but it yeah yeah it’s rough so like if you want to if you think you’d enjoy this you’ve got to clear a couple hours because it is a it is a very amply sized uh demo (0:44:17) Jonnie: Oh no! (0:44:31) Kevin: both in terms of like the area you can cover and the amount of things you can do it uh so going to the main hook of the the physics space portion so for instance right in your standard farming game when you want to harvest a crop you you just push the button and you collect the resource right maybe you put it down with a sickle or whatever right in this game you have to grab the fruit Whatever it is, and you actually have to pull that sucker out like it (0:45:01) Kevin: will stretch cartoon style and you have to yank it off in a very sort of satisfying way of doing it. It’s not all completely fixed space, for instance when you’re plowing the the ground it’s still a grid based sort of system as is the usual, but for instance when you’re watering it’s not just water square by square it’s like you’re you actually just can run around and just rush all and spray water everywhere as you’re doing it. (0:45:31) Jonnie: This game just looks incredible. I love this. I have like- I love the- (0:45:31) Kevin: The Legend of Zelda Series is a very bright, bouncy, colorful cartoon. It’s a dedicated combo button. You can just roll around and roll around. (0:45:38) Kevin: Everything about it, even as you’re playing the mechanics, all feel like how it looks. For instance, there is a dedicated combo button where you just kind of roll up into a ball and then you can just start rolling around like a Goron from The Legend of Zelda Series. (0:46:02) Kevin: It’s very fun, it’s very cute. There is a huge, like, 30 or something crops that you can grow in the demo. (0:46:14) Kevin: And they do get into some of the other aspects, like building and crafting and whatnot. (0:46:20) Kevin: In particular, the automation stuff where you can construct conveyor belts and things like that. You can see in some of the trailer, like, you can have these wacky… (0:46:31) Kevin: bouncing fruits on the conveyor belts as they’re moving along. So it can… the possibilities are… they’re vast. Like, I can’t even imagine the nonsense that will come out of this game. (0:46:44) Kevin: And overall, like I said, it’s a real… it sucks that you can’t say it because I want to play this more and more, but having to restart every time is a real bummer. (0:46:57) Kevin: bummer but yeah the whole demo as a whole is very sandbox (0:47:01) Kevin: like here’s the island go here’s basically all the things you can do and just go do whatever right I don’t know what the if they’re gonna try to go with a narrative thing because they have some other NPCs and characters which are fun in design and have personality so maybe they’ll lean into that I don’t know but it is still overall I think a great demo I’m excited for the game I’m glad the demo didn’t disappoint because just what looking at the. (0:47:31) Kevin: very excited by the visual style and I’m definitely keeping my eye out for this and you know, (0:47:40) Kevin: whenever how long it will take to get a big game actually done. (0:47:43) Kevin: So definitely a thumbs up. (0:47:45) Jonnie: I loved the look of some of the automation in the game where they set up the conveyor belts and like fans and was that in the demo? (0:47:53) Kevin: Yes, yes it was. I can’t remember fans, but I think it was. I didn’t fiddle around with the animation too, too much, but they definitely had a lot of different components that you could mess around with to basically achieve the sort of stuff you see in the trailer with fans pushing them and bouncing and things like that. (0:48:11) Kevin: Yeah, I’m definitely a thumbs up from me on Southfield. (0:48:16) Jonnie: game looks, it looks incredible. My feeling looking at this game is it kind of gives me the silliness that I feel like an Ooblets was going for and Ooblets massively failed to deliver on because it just tried to be absurd. This feels like absurd with a purpose, right? That’s, to me, that’s the appeal is like the ragdoll physics style element and what you’ve said about like it’s not everywhere, (0:48:27) Kevin: Yes. (0:48:42) Jonnie: right like the the hoeing being more grid-based as well. (0:48:46) Kevin: Yeah, it’s it’s still grounded. Yes, right (0:48:47) Jonnie: That to me says a lot because yeah it’s grounded there’s still intention behind it and doing that those things where it makes sense right here like Ublitz was just like we’re gonna make everything silly because that’s the thing we do we’re silly look at how silly we are and it’s like hey you kind of just cringe in lane right like whereas this looks just amazing. (0:49:06) Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. I I fully agree with that because (0:49:11) Kevin: Yeah, nothing felt nothing felt bad like for better lack of way of putting oh my gosh I think I’m looking at the trailer again I forgot there’s this fruit that will just start growing if you don’t harvest it quickly enough. It’s it’s pretty fun (0:49:25) Kevin: Yeah, they have the cannons. Yeah, all this stuff is in the demo looking at it. There’s not like your dog I don’t remember that but oh, yeah, I think the vehicle was in there, too (0:49:33) Kevin: But I agree like it’s very thoughtful (0:49:36) Kevin: in its design. It’s goofy as much as it can be but still absolutely grounds it with working systems. And honestly I had the same feeling of like this is kind of what I want Ooblets to be like because it’s bright and colorful but not ridiculously like I don’t I don’t know what it is about Ooblets something about the names that always throw me off about Ooblets but but here it’s just so much fun. I mean just looking at the (0:50:07) Kevin: It’s it’s great. Yeah, so I don’t think we have a any date or anything like that for Southfield yet, but (0:50:15) Kevin: Keep your keep your eye out for it because I think it’s gonna be a great one (0:50:20) Jonnie: Alright, so Rusty’s Retirement is a game I’m very excited about, I’ve been very excited about, (0:50:28) Jonnie: and I was very excited to try the demo. I feel like the idea of an idol-ish farming game that kind of just sits at the bottom of your screen is genius and something that I had (0:50:42) Jonnie: not considered and something I didn’t know that I wanted until I saw the trailer. (0:50:46) Jonnie: And I was like, yeah, I really want to play this. (0:50:50) Jonnie: Good. (0:50:51) Jonnie: And having played the demo, it seems like it’s exactly what I wanted it to be. (0:50:57) Jonnie: So you have your farming plots that sit at the bottom of the screen. (0:51:01) Jonnie: You select a crop, you plant it. (0:51:04) Jonnie: Rusty, he goes out and he’ll plant the crops, (0:51:07) Jonnie: or he’ll order them, he’ll harvest them. (0:51:10) Jonnie: You can purchase robots that will help with the automation, (0:51:14) Jonnie: effectively just increasing the number of tasks that you can complete. (0:51:20) Jonnie: The first crops you grow, then maybe they take a minute or two. (0:51:24) Jonnie: And then as time goes on, the crops take longer and longer to grow. (0:51:27) Jonnie: And you just need to grow more of them to unlock future stuff. (0:51:32) Kevin: You’re right. Okay (0:51:33) Jonnie: The demo has some pretty obvious blockers on it. (0:51:39) Jonnie: I assume you’ll be able to purchase more land. (0:51:41) Jonnie: There are some big bits on the screen that we just grade out with the words demo across them. (0:51:46) Jonnie: I’m sure there’ll be more buildings and stuff like you could buy. (0:51:50) Jonnie: a few buildings in this one, but nothing significant. (0:51:56) Jonnie: It was just kind of everything. I was hoping it was going to be. (0:52:01) Kevin: okay so the prison like the visual is very cute I actually like the style a lot um my question is (0:52:09) Kevin: how intrusive do you find it right like because it’s running at the bottom of your screen (0:52:16) Kevin: like how frequently are you checking in or how much is it distracting you (0:52:22) Jonnie: Yes, I don’t know if it’s fair to say, Chris, this is probably the thing that I hope changes the most as the game goes from demo to full implementation. (0:52:33) Jonnie: And I should call out that they’re very explicit that the demo is a work in progress and that a lot of things will change. (0:52:42) Jonnie: So in terms of how intrusive it is, I’m playing on a laptop with, you know, like a 15 inch screen and a monitor. It’s a textual monitor that’s like. (0:52:52) Jonnie: Maybe 27 inches and it does feel quite intrusive. They do have options where you can keep it up permanently or have it minimize, which is which is handy. (0:53:02) Jonnie: It did feel quite intrusive, but they’re one of the good things that I guess has come out of the demos. (0:53:10) Jonnie: They’ve announced that vertical mode is coming and I think the vertical mode would change it quite significantly. (0:53:15) Jonnie: I think there’s quite a difference to it being on the right of a screen versus. (0:53:22) Jonnie: It being sort of on the bottom in terms of the amount of screen real estate it will take up. (0:53:27) Jonnie: So I really like that change. I think that makes a lot of sense and it’s something that I’m very excited for because I think I would I would be much more likely to have it up permanently if I was playing in vertical mode versus horizontal. (0:53:40) Kevin: Okay. (0:53:41) Kevin: Yeah. (0:53:42) Kevin: I, I guess I can see that. (0:53:44) Kevin: I guess also like just how much like in terms of attention, does it, (0:53:50) Kevin: does it track from you, right? (0:53:52) Kevin: Like, is this something you would run while doing something? (0:53:56) Kevin: I don’t know, a work type task or, or is this something just while you’re watching videos or like, how, yeah, how much of your attention? (0:54:06) Jonnie: Yeah, so I think this is the other thing that I kind of hope changes in the full implementation is that it slows down a bit. (0:54:13) Jonnie: So I felt like it was requiring too much attention for what it was. (0:54:20) Jonnie: But again, that’s sort of a pass I’m willing to give it because it’s a demo. (0:54:23) Jonnie: And I think it felt like, you know, to me, it felt like that was intended because you kind of progress to purchasing some of the buildings and getting a lot of the resources. (0:54:34) Jonnie: what felt like very quick for a game of (0:54:36) Jonnie: this sort and I wouldn’t be surprised if in the in the full implementation everything else was slowed down so I feel like I did everything within the demo you know which which goes from starting with not a lot to generating you know thousands of gold within t

Al and Kev talk about Moonstone Island Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:05: What Have We Been Up To 00:14:27: News 00:54:26: Moonstone Island 01:47:58: Outro Links Spells and Secrest Update One Lonely Outpost New UI Sneak Peek Orange Season 0.11 Wylde Flowers Eury’s Salon Update Re:Legend News My Time at Sandrock Plushies Paleo Pines Plushie Tchia Soul Meter Update Spirittea News Stardew 1.6 News Southfield Sugardew Island Sugardew Island Kickstarter Sunkissed City Abyss: New Dawn Abyss: New Dawn Kickstarter Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:34) Al: My name is Al. (0:00:36) Kevin: I’m, well it says “blank” in the show now. (0:00:40) Kevin: That just reminds me of Pokemon Gold and Silver. (0:00:43) Kevin: I was one of those guys who named my rival question my question word question word. (0:00:47) Kevin: Hello everyone, my name is Kevin. (0:00:49) Al: And we’re here today to talk about cottagecore games. (0:00:53) Kevin: Whoo! (0:00:54) Al: So the behind the scenes on that is, was it last episode? (0:00:59) Al: Neither Johnny nor Bev knew how I traditionally introduce. (0:01:02) Kevin: Yeah, there you go, yeah, you know me, I’m going to. (0:01:03) Al: So I wrote it down. (0:01:05) Al: I wrote it down in the show notes so that people always have it now. (0:01:10) Al: And the first episode we have it in, Kevin comments on it. (0:01:14) Al: So, great. (0:01:19) Al: Well, as usual, transcripts for the podcast are available in the show notes and on the website. (0:01:26) Al: This podcast, this episode, this episode, we are going to talk about Moonstone Island, (0:01:33) Al: the creature collection farming, like there’s only one, one of the creature collecting farming games. (0:01:36) Kevin: Yeah… (0:01:42) Kevin: You don’t talk about religion? (0:01:44) Kevin: Is religion one of them? I don’t remember. (0:01:46) Al: I can’t even remember if that’s one other thing. (0:01:48) Kevin: I don’t know. I still- I don’t think religion exists. (0:01:52) Al: That game smashed together so many buzzwords. (0:01:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:01:58) Al: Before that, we’re going to cover news. It has been a busy news week, (0:02:03) Al: so we’re going to cover all of that. But first of all, Kevin, what have you been up to? (0:02:08) Kevin: Alright, so, uh, first of all, Tears of the Kingdom, I’m still- I’ve- (0:02:14) Kevin: I don’t remember the last time I talked about it here, but I’ve played it in the background kind of… (0:02:20) Kevin: …uh, on and off, um, I’m not a- I’m not going for completion, but I am trying to hit every shrine. (0:02:29) Kevin: Every light route, and all that stuff. (0:02:32) Kevin: Um, I’ve already finished the deaths, I finished all the main story beats except for beating Ganon, (0:02:37) Kevin: and I’m over 100, uh… (0:02:38) Kevin: Shrines at this point, so I’m nearing the finish line. I might finish by next week. (0:02:43) Al: You’re doing the sensible completionist, not the full completionist. (0:02:44) Kevin: You know… (0:02:48) Kevin: Exactly. That’s correct! (0:02:51) Kevin: And that game is a blast. You know, of course, needless to say. (0:02:58) Kevin: Small stories, spoilers for people who don’t want to listen. The Fifth Sage (0:03:03) Kevin: was a real surprise. I think that’s a giant robot, and (0:03:07) Kevin: Monero is a fun to- (0:03:08) Kevin: to- a blast to run around with, um, and I’m so glad I got her early on, her relative. (0:03:15) Al: Yeah, my fun fact about her is that I got her before any of the other sages, because I just happened across her and did it. (0:03:22) Kevin: Yeah. (0:03:24) Kevin: That’s… (0:03:26) Kevin: That’s so wild, that’s so cool. (0:03:29) Kevin: Um, my brother Calvin, he didn’t do her until like after he beat all the shrines, so… (0:03:35) Kevin: He just like, “Well, I got this cool run and I don’t have anything to do with it!” (0:03:40) Kevin: Um… (0:03:42) Kevin: But yeah, no, uh, Tears of the Kingdom, great game, needless to say. (0:03:45) Kevin: Um, I’m just, haven’t been having a blast at that. (0:03:47) Kevin: Um, I’ve picked up Smash again this week, uh, (0:03:50) Kevin: They are releasing some new spirit. (0:03:52) Kevin: It’s like the fifth anniversary, something like that. (0:03:55) Kevin: Sakurai refuses, cannot be stopped from working on that game. (0:04:01) Kevin: But a good reason to pick up again and smash a smash, always fun. (0:04:06) Kevin: Aside from that, the Rainbow Road obligatory shout out here. (0:04:13) Kevin: Rainbow Road Radio, some of the stuff I’ve been talking about on that show recently. (0:04:18) Kevin: Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga the game (0:04:22) Kevin: Boy Advance RPG. We did an episode on that and boy that game is amazing! I played it when I was younger, it was amazing back then and I’m glad that it is still fantastic now. (0:04:38) Kevin: Have you played any of the Mario and Luigi games? Al? (0:04:40) Al: I have not. That was the one you covered last week, in the last episode, right? Yeah. I enjoyed listening to that. It was good fun, but it did confirm to me that I probably don’t want to play it. So I’ve played a couple of the Paper Mario games, and I’ve played what was the Mario RPG last year, and I’ve come to the conclusion that I don’t think I like turn-based battles anymore. And that’s fine. (0:04:41) Kevin: Yes. (0:04:52) Kevin: Yes. Mmhmm. Yep. Mmhmm. Sure. (0:05:10) Al: For that reason, I suspect I wouldn’t like this game, because that’s a huge part of the game, right? (0:05:16) Kevin: It is. Right, but like one of the joys in my opinion where it succeeds is it’s very dynamic even for turn based game because of the (0:05:28) Kevin: The counters and the the timing and jumping these it’s still repetitive (0:05:34) Kevin: actions (0:05:34) Al: So I understand that, but actually I think that makes it worse for me because it’s not turn-based battling then, right? (0:05:40) Al: Like it’s turn-based with a little bit of real time. (0:05:44) Kevin: - Yeah. (0:05:45) Al: So because I had that in Mario RPG as well, they did that. (0:05:46) Kevin: - Yeah? (0:05:47) Al: It’s like, oh, if you, if you, if you press the button at the right time, it increases your attack, or if you press it at the right time, you get, you take zero damage. (0:05:48) Kevin: They did that? (0:05:56) Al: And it’s like, okay, well, I need to do that then. (0:05:58) Al: And there are so many battles where you basically can’t win it unless you do, or you obviously (0:06:04) Al: have a ridiculous degree, unless you do those things. (0:06:07) Al: And to me, it just turns for, it just makes it annoying because it’s like, I can’t just do a turn-based battle. (0:06:13) Al: It’s turn-based battle, but I also have to have the right timing, which to me takes away the advantage of the turn-based battles. (0:06:14) Kevin: Yeah. (0:06:18) Kevin: Mm-hmm. (0:06:20) Al: So I understand why people would like that, but for me, it doesn’t, it actually makes (0:06:21) Kevin: Okay. (0:06:25) Kevin: Yeah. (0:06:25) Kevin: I- I get that, right? (0:06:27) Kevin: Because, yeah, one of the advantages of turn-based battles is definitely turn your brain off, sort of thing. (0:06:32) Kevin: Um. (0:06:33) Kevin: Yeah, no, I- I- I can see that. (0:06:35) Kevin: Um. (0:06:36) Kevin: But, uh, regardless, the game’s fantastic. (0:06:38) Kevin: It’s hilarious. (0:06:38) Kevin: It’s amazing. (0:06:39) Kevin: Uh. (0:06:40) Kevin: Go listen to that episode of Rainbow Road Radio if you guys haven’t heard it. (0:06:44) Kevin: And check out that game if you guys haven’t played it, it’s still a- or 20, whatever, however many years it’s been. (0:06:47) Al: It’s 20, 21. (0:06:49) Kevin: Um. (0:06:50) Kevin: No, I know. (0:06:51) Kevin: I don’t- I don’t know what it should be. (0:06:52) Al: No, it was definitely a fun listen to hear you two talk about it, even if I know I’m not going to play. (0:06:54) Kevin: Um. (0:06:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:06:58) Kevin: Thank you. (0:06:59) Kevin: I appreciate it. (0:06:59) Kevin: Um. (0:07:00) Kevin: And, uh, well, now talking about the episode that will be released out at the- when this episode is- of Harvest Season’s out. (0:07:08) Kevin: Um, I watched something called The King of Kong. (0:07:11) Kevin: Have you heard of this at all, Al? (0:07:12) Al: No, I thought you were just saying King Kong in a funny way. This is like an actual “I have not, what is this?” (0:07:18) Kevin: Nope. (0:07:19) Kevin: Yep. (0:07:20) Kevin: Okay. (0:07:20) Kevin: So, The King of Kong is a documentary from like, 2007, I believe it is. (0:07:26) Kevin: Um. (0:07:27) Kevin: It was- it’s- it- it’s not super high production. (0:07:32) Kevin: It’s not like a big m- Hollywood movie release. (0:07:35) Kevin: It was directed by, uh, Seth Gordon, who ended up becoming a successful big Hollywood director because of this documentary, actually. (0:07:44) Kevin: Um, but it is a smaller, uh, project, it is a documentary about, uh, a- I should describe this- a competition of sorts between- a rivalry, let’s say, between a man named Billy Mitchell and a man named Steve We- Weebie, uh, over getting the world record in Donkey Kong, the arca- original arcade game, um, right? (0:08:11) Kevin: And so the way– (0:08:14) Kevin: The way this documentary is filmed and presented, it’s a very underdog story because Billy Mitchell is a world champ and record holder in like 10 different games like Pac-Man, Mrs. Pac-Man, Donkey Kong Jr., etc., etc., right? (0:08:28) Kevin: And then Steve Weebie’s just like this teacher with just a dad and all of a sudden he comes and gets this record and there’s a lot of drama involved because Billy Mitchell is closely associated with the– (0:08:44) Kevin: It’s called Twin Galaxies, the group that essentially is the authority on the records at that time of these types of arcade games. (0:08:54) Kevin: So like, for instance, one of Weebie’s early record attempts, he sent in a tape and they didn’t accept it because they said they needed to see it in person, yada yada. (0:09:06) Kevin: And so he goes in person and creates a new record, but then Billy Mitchell sends in a different tape and that one gets accepted because– (0:09:14) Kevin: And so there’s a lot of back and forth and drama. (0:09:18) Kevin: And it’s a good watch. I recommend it to people who haven’t seen it. (0:09:22) Kevin: But it’s interesting because the story does not end there. (0:09:28) Kevin: We watched some follow-up documentary and actually there’s been some court cases in the news. That’s why we kind of brought it up now. (0:09:36) Kevin: So I won’t go too much into detail of whether you guys can listen to the episode over at Rainbow Road Radio if you want to hear it. (0:09:44) Kevin: But long story short, Billy Mitchell is an awful, awful person who wants to be number one and will stop at nothing and step on everyone and backstab and control the narrative to do so. (0:09:49) Al: Oh. (0:10:00) Kevin: That much you can easily see in the original King of Kong documentary, so that’s not a shocker. But seeing the extent of how that goes, it’s a wild story. (0:10:14) Kevin: So again, that is called King of Kong. That’s the original documentary, but there is even follow-up documentaries made by more amateurs and stuff investigating more about the story. (0:10:26) Kevin: So it is a wild tale over several decades. (0:10:30) Kevin: But yeah, that’s what I’ve been up to. What about you? What’s going on with you? (0:10:30) Al: interesting. Yeah just before that I noticed that the Seth Gordon the director he did he did the 2017 Baywatch film as well this is like yes yeah so like yeah when you say he’s done Hollywood stuff he’s at he’s done proper big Hollywood stuff as well (0:10:44) Kevin: Yeah, and he did Horrible Bosses, that comedy with, I don’t know what it’s called, but yeah. (0:10:52) Kevin: Yeah, yep, yep. And King of Kong was kind of his breakthrough. Everyone took notice. (0:10:59) Al: Well, what have I been up to? I have obviously been playing Moonstone Island quite a bit for the last couple of weeks. Yeah, the behind-the-scenes stuff is we were meant to do this episode two weeks ago and I messaged Kevin on this Friday and said, “Can we delay the episode because I’ve played like 10 minutes of the game?” I just had not… We’ll get into that with stuff but I just had not. (0:11:06) Kevin: Yeah, I played a good bit too. I didn’t play it the last week. (0:11:29) Al: Managed to push myself to properly play the game. (0:11:31) Al: So I have now played a decent chunk of the game. (0:11:34) Al: So, um, yeah, we’ll, we’ll actually talk about it. (0:11:37) Kevin: Now we can talk about it, yay! (0:11:39) Al: Um, I’ve also been, uh, trying to finish up Hollow Knight as well. (0:11:44) Al: So I managed to get back into it and I’ve defeated a big chunk of the bosses. (0:11:49) Al: And I think I’ve got two bosses left to go. (0:11:52) Al: Um, so I’m, I’m getting there, but, uh, yeah, we’re getting, we’re getting pretty difficult, getting pretty difficult. (0:11:57) Kevin: Okay, oh, I bet oh my gosh. I’ve seen some of those later bosses Jesus wheez that’s some nutty stuff That’s off to you Hollow Knight people (0:12:06) Al: Yeah, it’s interesting because the one I’m currently on is like, it’s not the actual individual boss isn’t difficult, but the difficulty of it is there are six of them. And you have to defeat like all of them before, yeah. And they’re all, and they can do up to two at a time. So like doing one of them at a time would probably be reasonably easy. I probably would have done it by now. But the problem is then they suddenly go, “Oh, and here’s There’s a second one you have to deal with at the same time. (0:12:18) Kevin: Oh! It’s a gauntlet. (0:12:36) Al: You’re like dodging one, but as you dodge one, the other one gets you. (0:12:39) Al: You’re like, no, so it’s like there’s so many times where it’s like, I would have definitely beaten it if it weren’t for the fact that I had two at a time and stuff (0:12:46) Al: like that. So, yeah, it’s it’s pretty it’s it’s interesting how you can have that. (0:12:51) Al: Right. Like it’s not it’s not a very difficult. (0:12:52) Kevin: Oh my gosh, yeah that sounds gnarly. (0:12:53) Al: They’re not difficult bosses, but putting them all together like that makes it very (0:12:58) Al: difficult. (0:13:00) Al: So, yeah, but it’s been good fun. (0:13:02) Al: I think I’ve managed to get, uh, like four of. (0:13:06) Al: Um, so I got pretty close that time, frustratingly close, but we’ll get, we’ll get there soon, we’ll get there soon. (0:13:11) Kevin: Dang oh my god (0:13:15) Al: Um, so yeah, no, that’s really, it’s really good fun. (0:13:17) Al: Um, I’m definitely at the point in that game though, where I do not want to explore anymore, I do not want to backtrack anymore. (0:13:23) Al: Like I have done all of that. (0:13:25) Al: I just want to get to the last boss and kill him and be done with it and get onto the next game when it comes out. (0:13:30) Al: Right. (0:13:30) Al: I, the becomes a point with those games where you’re like, I’m done exploring. (0:13:34) Al: Thanks. And the problem is… (0:13:36) Al: Obviously, Medtrivenia is the whole point of them is exploring and backtracking. (0:13:39) Al: So they don’t have a lot of fast travel. (0:13:42) Al: There is some, but it’s not a lot of it. (0:13:44) Al: So you still have to do a lot of traversal of the map to get from boss to boss. (0:13:48) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, I get that. And Hollow Knight’s a special case because the DLC is just stuck in there, like, you can’t tell where the DLC is at a glance, right? (0:14:00) Kevin: There’s no DLC menu option, like, you’re doing over a hundred percent. (0:14:06) Al: Yeah, I haven’t, I haven’t even paid attention to what I’m doing there. (0:14:10) Al: I suspect at this point, I’m just, I’m going for the like final main boss. (0:14:15) Al: And if I’ve done any of the DLC stuff, then fine. (0:14:19) Al: But I don’t think I’m going to like focus on any of that. (0:14:22) Kevin: Yeah, no, no, yeah, that makes sense, it’s a wide one, it’s a big game. (0:14:26) Al: Super fun. (0:14:28) Al: All right. (0:14:28) Al: Awesome. (0:14:29) Al: Well, that’s what we’ve been up to. (0:14:30) Al: Let’s talk about some news. (0:14:32) Al: So first of all, we have just a couple of small things about spells and secrets. (0:14:36) Al: So their Xbox version is out now, and they have also said that they are not happy with the Switch version and they’ve fired their porting team and they’ve got a new porting team for the Switch version. (0:14:46) Kevin: Oh snap! (0:14:48) Al: The actual wording is we ourselves are incredibly unhappy with the Nintendo Switch (0:14:52) Al: version. This situation is incredibly frustrating for us to achieve the best possible results. (0:14:57) Al: We’ve decided to bring a new porting team on board. (0:15:01) Al: We would like to reevaluate the source code and are currently waiting for feedback on the current status of the source code. (0:15:06) Al: Well, we can’t make any current problems concrete promises at this moment. (0:15:09) Al: We remain optimistic about making positive progress. (0:15:13) Kevin: Well, I mean, hey, I salute them for wanting to improve the quality of the Switch ports aren’t always the best, so you know [laughs] (0:15:20) Al: One lonely outposts have posted a… post. They have updated us on what they’re working on and they have teased a UI overhaul. So the whole UI is getting an overhaul. (0:15:40) Kevin: That’s a big one. Probably respectable. (0:15:43) Kevin: And played it obviously. (0:15:44) Kevin: UI is a very critical… (0:15:46) Al: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I’ve not played the game. So looking at the two, I’m like, I don’t have an opinion on which I prefer because I’ve not experienced them properly. But they definitely it feels like it’s of the same style. So it doesn’t feel completely different, but it looks like they’re exactly it’s all functional stuff. Yeah. So they’re making it look I suspect it’s like UX based stuff and and things like their newest update. They’ve got the patch as far there as well. (0:16:02) Kevin: Right, it’s not like visually aesthetically. It’s more functional. (0:16:16) Al: It’s all bug fixes and small changes. (0:16:19) Al: So the link to that will be in the show notes as well. (0:16:23) Al: Orange season. (0:16:25) Al: Now, this is an incredible patch note. (0:16:28) Al: So this is version 0.11, 0.11. (0:16:32) Al: And the patch note starts off with narrative, (0:16:36) Al: added a main story. (0:16:42) Al: And I am absolutely fascinated by this. (0:16:42) Kevin: Uhh… (0:16:44) Al: Like, does this mean there was no main story? (0:16:46) Al: Or is this additional main story? (0:16:50) Al: I mean, it says, “After settling in Orange Town, your new life seems to be going fine. (0:16:55) Al: However, the previous owner of your farm returns, and he wants it back on this journey to guarantee your future. (0:17:00) Al: Your new life will mingle with a cast of strange, friendly, and conflicting personalities. (0:17:05) Al: What kind of people will you and them be at the end?” (0:17:09) Al: So this sounds to me like the game up till this point was like the daily farming aspect of things, (0:17:15) Al: but without like an overall. (0:17:16) Al: Marking story, which is an interesting way to go about it. (0:17:19) Kevin: Umm… yeah. (0:17:22) Kevin: Umm… (0:17:24) Kevin: Spoilers, Moonstone Island could use an update like this! (0:17:26) Al: Yeah, it’s interesting. Neither of us have played it, so I don’t think we have, but there you go. If you’ve been playing the game and you’re like, “This game could do with story.” (0:17:28) Kevin: That’s all I wanted to say. (0:17:32) Kevin: But it is funny to read, just added a story. (0:17:48) Al: Well, have I got good news for you? (0:17:52) Al: Speaking of having good news for you, specifically Kevin, I’ve got good news for you. (0:17:53) Kevin: Oh! (0:17:56) Kevin: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH AHHHHHHH! (0:17:57) Kevin: I just saw the news! (0:17:58) Al: Wildflowers, the Yuri’s Salon, I think it’s Yuri, we just think it’s Yuri. (0:17:58) Kevin: AHHHHHH! (0:18:07) Kevin: Yep, I think so. Hold on, I’m listening right now. It’s in the trailer. (0:18:11) Kevin: Yeah, it’s Yuri. Okay. (0:18:12) Al: Yuri’s Salon update is out today, if you’re listening to this on the release date, so 31st of January. (0:18:20) Al: And it brings a whole new, romanceable character, and the salon that she… (0:18:30) Al: I haven’t seen anything about pronouns, but I’m assuming she… (0:18:30) Kevin: Yeah, I don’t think so (0:18:35) Kevin: Yeah (0:18:38) Kevin: So that’s (0:18:40) Kevin: RAVERS! (0:18:40) Al: This is how you do updates, right? You go, “Hey, by the way, there was a tease, right? (0:18:47) Al: So they showed a tease of the outline of the character and said someone new is moving to Fairhaven, and then posted that yes, they are romanceable. And then the next day they were like, “Oh yeah, so the release is coming next Wednesday. Cheers.” (0:19:05) Al: Yep, good, good, good, good release in full. (0:19:06) Kevin: Umm… (0:19:10) Kevin: Yep, good reveal. (0:19:12) Al: Reveal, that’s the word I’m looking for. (0:19:12) Kevin: Like, it’s… (0:19:14) Kevin: First of all, adding a new character, that’s a big deal in any farming game. (0:19:18) Al: Yeah, especially Wildflowers, because it’s very character-based. (0:19:20) Kevin: Umm… Right… (0:19:26) Kevin: Yep, very character driven, right? (0:19:28) Kevin: Like, the setting is pretty small, so they compensated that by doing a lot of interactions with the characters. (0:19:34) Kevin: Um, so that’s… (0:19:36) Kevin: That is interesting to see, also like interesting to see added at this point, right? (0:19:44) Kevin: Because like it might say if I’m already married to Ray, I’m not gonna end that for Yuri. (0:19:46) Al: Yeah, I love how you’re not even saying Wesley, you’re just saying Ray. (0:19:48) Kevin: Sorry Yuri, I’m sure you’re fine, but you know. (0:19:50) Kevin: But that said, it will be interesting to see… (0:19:56) Kevin: It’s the reason I played the game! I’ll be honest! (0:20:04) Kevin: But… (0:20:06) Kevin: But yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I’m hopeful there will be other stuff sneaked in. I can’t wait to play it. (0:20:13) Kevin: I’ll fire up wildflowers again. Great, good excuse to do that again. (0:20:18) Kevin: One thing… Oh gosh, so it’s a salon, right? So you can redo… (0:20:26) Kevin: Yeah, Terry. Her name is Terry. Terry’s hair. It’s about to say Valerie. I’m mixing those two up now. (0:20:28) Al: Yeah. (0:20:32) Al: Quite a large selection of hairstyles, it looks like, and hair colors. (0:20:33) Kevin: But it’s I feel almost uncomfortable (0:20:36) Kevin: I feel so almost uncomfortable because I’m so used to that hairstyle it’s so iconic for the character whatever like you know it’s the look (0:20:44) Al: Yeah. (0:20:45) Al: Yes. (0:20:45) Al: It’s not like, it’s not like a game where you have a character customizer. (0:20:49) Al: Cause the whole point is it’s Tara’s story and you’re playing as Tara. (0:20:53) Kevin: Right. (0:20:54) Al: So like, this is the, I mean, can you change clothes? (0:20:55) Kevin: Yup. (0:20:57) Kevin: You can? Yes. (0:20:58) Al: Right. (0:20:58) Al: So there is at least some level of customization there. (0:21:00) Al: So, and it’s not like it doesn’t make sense to be able to change your hair. (0:21:01) Kevin: Yeah. (0:21:01) Kevin: Yeah. (0:21:05) Al: Like people change their hair. (0:21:06) Kevin: Yeah! (0:21:06) Al: That’s a thing that happens. (0:21:07) Kevin: Yeah! (0:21:08) Al: Uh, but I understand, I understand your concern. (0:21:08) Kevin: Yeah, you know, I… (0:21:11) Kevin: Yeah, I… (0:21:12) Kevin: Yeah, no, it makes sense. (0:21:13) Kevin: I… (0:21:14) Kevin: It’s… (0:21:15) Kevin: There’s nothing inherently wrong with it. (0:21:16) Kevin: I’m just uncomfortable with the change! (0:21:20) Kevin: I tear his blood, I don’t like it! (0:21:23) Kevin: But that said, hey, wildflowers in the news again, I’m very happy, happy day. (0:21:26) Kevin: Um, and boy, that r- that’s dropping soon, I like shadow drop like that. Good stuff, wildflowers. (0:21:32) Al: Yeah, good thing we’re doing this episode before it comes out. (0:21:37) Al: Awesome detail, we don’t have any like more details, but if we get them, we’ll put them in if there’s anything else coming in and it does, I actually didn’t check does it say, (0:21:47) Kevin: Heh heh. (0:21:48) Al: I think it’s a free update. I haven’t seen anything but it being DLC. Yeah, they’re called. (0:21:51) Kevin: I would assume so. They have not done anything paid as- (0:21:54) Al: Yeah, and they’re calling it an update. They’re saying the Wildflowers fourth update Yuri salon is coming next. I think that implies that it’s free. (0:22:02) Al: Hey, look, Re-legend. This is just a really small thing to say that they have said that they’re going to do more updates. That’s it. They’ve said that, oh, they got some money to work on the game more, so they’re going to do that. That’s it. That’s literally it. (0:22:09) Kevin: They’re going to add more buzzwords into the game. (0:22:28) Al: There was a bug fix update recently as well. (0:22:31) Kevin: I guess. (0:22:32) Al: I love some of these, I love some of these bugs in games. (0:22:36) Al: “Ensure the player’s character does not pass through the map when jumping off their magnus near the chest in the goblins resort in the desert biome.” (0:22:46) Al: That is so specific. (0:22:49) Kevin: Yeah. (0:22:50) Kevin: Oh my gosh, that’s funny. (0:22:53) Kevin: Okay, what a, what a re-legend. (0:23:00) Al: The interesting thing is, I looked at the comments on Steam and they’re all positive. (0:23:08) Al: It’s like unexpected but not unwelcomed. (0:23:08) Kevin: Well, look, hold on. (0:23:10) Al: Surprising but fantastic news. (0:23:12) Al: Great news! (0:23:13) Kevin: Now hold on. (0:23:14) Al: Like there’s loads of like actual- and this is the first time I’ve seen like positive comments on anything for League of Legends for like five years! (0:23:24) Kevin: Well, I mean, you know, coming out was a good first step, right, in making positive comments, finally. (0:23:24) Al: Yes, that’s true. (0:23:32) Kevin: But, like, uh, look, alright, this is anecdotal, this is just my experience, I don’t know who anyone who’s played the game, so, you know, is it all just, uh, uh, uh, you know, fake town, and, uh, just the fake comment section by, populated by the devs, I don’t know, it’s possible, I’m just putting it out there. (0:23:40) Al: Does anyone? (0:23:54) Kevin: Did the game come out? I don’t have confirmation yet. (0:23:59) Al: And they do, there is one comment on it, which is just give them guns. (0:24:05) Al: So I think I know where that person’s, I think I know where that person’s mind is (0:24:08) Kevin: I wonder where… (0:24:10) Kevin: You know, did I tell you, or do you know why they added guns in Power World? (0:24:16) Al: That was that they’d said that they’d added it because they wanted it to be big in America basically, right? (0:24:22) Kevin: Yep, yep (0:24:23) Al: Which is like one of those things where it’s like, oh no, but also yeah (0:24:30) Kevin: They’re not wrong great like that’s the reaction like oh, but they’re not wrong (0:24:36) Al: Yeah My time at Sandrock They’ve got some plushies. So if you are really if you really love them my time at Sandrock characters (0:24:39) Kevin: Boy (0:24:46) Al: They have (0:24:46) Kevin: Wait that the characters they’re not creatures or animals (0:24:49) Al: They’re they’re the characters Logan and Fang just of course you don’t you’ve not played the game (0:24:57) Al: They’ve also got some figurines (0:25:02) Kevin: Terrawiobush, where’s that? (0:25:04) Al: Not on the my time at Sandrock page (0:25:09) Al: Speaking of plushies paleopines (0:25:12) Al: teasing some plushies Not out yet, but they teased our little foot (0:25:12) Kevin: What? What? (0:25:16) Al: of a plushie, a little foot and a back covered in spikes. (0:25:25) Kevin: I’m so excited. I wonder what dinos can’t tell based based off. Oh, I’m excited The dinosaurs are very well very likely get one (0:25:34) Al: Apparently, if you go on the on their link tree, they’ve already leaked what it is. (0:25:40) Al: It’s a carrot Anki. (0:25:42) Kevin: WHAT?! (0:25:42) Al: Anki, is it an Ankiosaurus? (0:25:44) Al: Sorry, Ankiosaurus. (0:25:45) Kevin: Oh yeah, probably ink. (0:25:46) Al: Anki-lo-saurus. (0:25:48) Kevin: Yeah, okay, yeah, oh, that’s a- (0:25:48) Al: Coming soon. (0:25:50) Al: I love that. (0:25:52) Al: It’s like they’ve got the link basically with the image, not the image of the actual plush, but the image of the what it is. (0:25:52) Kevin: Let’s make ship. (0:25:58) Al: And you click through it and it’s like, oh, campaign launches in four days and 19 hours. (0:26:10) Al: Thursday. Chia the game based on New Caledonia have released a cool new update or are going to release a cool new update in March which gives you well I guess let’s go let’s go the context of this game so this game is an explorationy type game but one of the big features of the game is you can jump into nature items so animals. (0:26:40) Al: animals and plants and stuff like that you can it’s called soul jumping and you have like a certain as you play the game you like build up your soul meter and you can use that to jump into animals and stuff like that. (0:26:53) Al: They are adding in the infinite soul meter so they say this comfort setting allows you to soul jump to your heart’s content without worrying about your meter depleting be a bird forever or a coconut or anything for that matter we’re happy. (0:27:07) Al: or if you like, it feels like a great. (0:27:10) Al: I mean, they say it’s not suggested for your first playthrough of the game, but. (0:27:16) Al: Do what you want. (0:27:17) Al: They’ve not stopped it. (0:27:18) Al: Like you can do it straight away. (0:27:19) Al: And if you just want to grab the jump in a bird and fly around this map forever, (0:27:24) Al: you can do that. (0:27:24) Al: And I think it’s pretty cool. (0:27:27) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:27:30) Al: Spirit tea, spirit tea, spirit tea have added item stacking. (0:27:36) Kevin: That feels like that should have been addressed a while ago. (0:27:42) Kevin: Don’t have that at the feet. (0:27:44) Al: really wanted to like this. And it’s good in some ways, but yeah, like there’s a lot of quality of life things that it doesn’t have that a lot of games have that makes me struggle, struggle to enjoy it as much. This was one of them, so they have removed it now, but I don’t know if I’m going to go back to it or not. They’ve also listed a bunch of stuff that they’re going to add. If you are enjoying the game. There you go. You can go. (0:28:05) Kevin: Whatever that means. (0:28:14) Al: Oh, look at the list of things they’re adding. (0:28:16) Al: Oh (0:28:16) Kevin: Speaking of enjoying games, uh, you know, Bev and, uh, Johnny enjoyed Stardew in last week’s episode. (0:28:25) Kevin: It was a great listen, good episode. (0:28:27) Kevin: And you know, I think some guy out there named Concerned Date saw that, I was like, “Oh, (0:28:33) Kevin: well if they harvest season reach 1.5, we can’t have them staying current!” (0:28:38) Kevin: So he drops the news! (0:28:40) Kevin: 1.6 is on its way, baby! (0:28:43) Al: Yeah, I mean, so like there’s not actually much news in this because we already knew it was coming. (0:28:48) Al: We already knew there was stuff in it. But he says 1.6 ended up being a little larger in scope than originally planned. Yeah, who knows what earth is happening here? He says this is the key bit here. (0:28:55) Kevin: little larger with concern to (0:29:05) Al: I’m done adding major new content to it now and it’s in a bug fixing and polishing phase until is ready for release. Thanks for your patience. (0:29:13) Al: It’ll be fun to see everyone play. He does say in the comments that it should come out, (0:29:18) Al: he says absolutely will come out in 2024. It will come to PC first. There shouldn’t be a big delay between PC and console/mobile. I think with the 1.5 update, it was a two-month delay between Steam and Switch, which is not too bad. The mobile one was the one that I think it was like three years to get for it to come to mobile. So hopefully that will be faster. (0:29:43) Al: He does say it will be fine to play this on an old save, but I’d probably recommend a new save just to experience everything in context, otherwise you’ll unlock a bunch of stuff right away when you load up your save. And I read that and went, great, that’s much quicker to cover all the new content for the episode! [LAUGHTER] (0:30:02) Kevin: Yeah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha (0:30:05) Al: So there has been a bunch of things that he listed on, where is it? A new festival. (0:30:13) Al: Which I think we’re pretty convinced now that’s the New Year festival. Two new mini festivals. (0:30:19) Al: New late game content which expands on each of the skill areas. New items and crafting recipes. There’s a totem there, so presumably another warp totem of some kind or something like that. And what looks like a quiver, as in for archery. Georgia alternatives to some of the end game quests. 100 plus new lines of dialogue. Winter outfits for the villagers. (0:30:43) Al: New type of reward for completing billboard requests. Support for eight player multiplayer on PC. And I love right at the end he puts new farm type. Just casually adding that at the end of this massive list. Oh yeah, there’s going to be a new farm as well. I wouldn’t be concerned about him. He’s fine. He’s got a lot of money. (0:31:08) Kevin: I mean… (0:31:10) Kevin: No, I know he’s fine. I’m just concerned what he’s doing to him. Geez. (0:31:15) Kevin: Um, I can’t uh… (0:31:17) Kevin: But hey, 8-player farm. We can get all- we can finally have the all the harvest season hosts on one episode. (0:31:20) Al: Oh dear, yeah, so anyway, it’s coming this year and it’s feature complete, so hopefully it’s going to end up coming, releasing like when, during the month and the summer when I’m away, isn’t it? (0:31:24) Kevin: Live commentary as he started far. (0:31:43) Al: All right, so you might think that’s all the news. (0:31:46) Al: That’s not all the news. (0:31:47) Al: four new games as well to talk about. (0:31:51) Al: Oh yes! So, first of all we have Southfield. The little blurb for this one is ‘Weird farming meets silly physics in Southfield. Combine chaotic crops with unpredictable effects, (0:32:07) Al: build your dream farmstead and experiment with playful machinery. Wobble your way around an ever-changing island solo or with up to three friends and unearth its secrets.’ Now, we quite (0:32:21) Al: too many farming games and they don’t do interesting things. (0:32:24) Kevin: That’s true. Southfield said, “What if we do the exact opposite?” (0:32:25) Al: This game here does say that. So, this is this I love. I need to play this game. (0:32:33) Kevin: Alright, I do too. Okay, I’m gonna start with the big hook, and that’s the main character. It’s a (0:32:40) Kevin: big blue (0:32:43) Kevin: gumdrop head looking blob man with big eyes, and that’s kind of it. (0:32:49) Kevin: He’s humanoid he has arms and legs (0:32:51) Kevin: and a head with eyes and a little (0:32:54) Kevin: Pikmin type leaf on top just a little one little sprout (0:32:58) Al: Pretty generic. (0:32:58) Kevin: and he’s big (0:33:00) Kevin: Yeah, but he’s big and cartoony and the way he runs around his dynamic proportions and style fitting very much with the quote-unquote Weird there’s silly physics. It’s great. He does like big bounces spins, or he does like full-on tornado (0:33:16) Kevin: He rolls around in a ball at one- (0:33:19) Al: Yep, he rides on a quad bike you got quad bikes in this game (0:33:19) Kevin: Armadillo style. (0:33:21) Kevin: He does. (0:33:23) Kevin: Yep, he’s chopping down trees. (0:33:25) Kevin: The trees are actually falling. (0:33:27) Kevin: Not just poof, here’s your logs. (0:33:29) Kevin: They’re timbering over. (0:33:31) Kevin: Um… (0:33:32) Al: There’s an electric chicken that you’re carrying, you’re chasing and you get electrocuted by. (0:33:33) Kevin: logs you there they’re timbering over (0:33:40) Al: You can throw an axe to cut down fruit. (0:33:42) Kevin: You can get frozen into ice cubes. (0:33:45) Kevin: You can throw one of your fellow blob people full on hurricane spins rocks. (0:33:51) Kevin: There’s a fruit growing to gigantic proportions. (0:33:54) Kevin: I don’t know why. (0:33:56) Al: The machinery looks fun. (0:33:58) Kevin: So this is interesting because there’s conveyor belts and things presumably for automatizing things and whatnot. (0:34:05) Kevin: But because of the weird effects, they’re just this physics that like fruits and crops are just bouncing on the conveyors. (0:34:12) Al: And it’s a bunch of the machinery that seems to be like cannons as well So it’s like leaning into I just I love everything about this. This is fantastic. I need this game (0:34:12) Kevin: so, are you… (0:34:16) Kevin: yup (0:34:20) Kevin: it’s so good right and and like even and there’s crafting there’s you can build a house and other stuff um there’s you know your plots and your farms but like every crop I don’t think i’ve (0:34:40) Kevin: It’s big, it’s cartoony, it’s colorful, it’s fun. (0:34:44) Kevin: Southfield looks amazing! (0:34:46) Kevin: Um… (0:34:47) Al: There’s also some some buildings so you can like kind of, I guess, Fortnite-esque type building, right. You’ve got your your your wall, you put up your wall and you put up your roof properly designing your house how you want. (0:35:05) Al: Yep, this one is coming soon. And as of now, I only see information about it coming to Steam on Windows. (0:35:13) Al: Yep, this one’s going on the list, I’m definitely, I’m definitely playing this one. (0:35:17) Al: Next, we have, Sugar Dew Island, now, so, before, yeah, so the name, the name is terrible, (0:35:19) Kevin: Yup. (0:35:24) Kevin: Oh boy, oh boy, just they’re coming out swinging with that name. Oh boy. (0:35:32) Al: right? (0:35:33) Al: Let’s just get out of the way. (0:35:35) Al: It’s Stardew Valley versus Coral Island, right? (0:35:38) Al: Like it’s just, like where is all they, what’s, what’s with the name? (0:35:40) Kevin: No… (0:35:41) Al: It’s bad. (0:35:43) Kevin: I- (0:35:44) Kevin: Island’s overdone, but at least it’s an actual thing, right? (0:35:48) Kevin: I’m gonna put my foot down, draw the line in the sand. (0:35:51) Kevin: I don’t think any farming game should ever have the “do” in its name. Ever. Again. (0:35:54) Al: Whatever it is, is a bad name, right? Just whatever. One of the comments on YouTube is, (0:35:57) Kevin: Just… (0:35:58) Kevin: Just don’t try. (0:36:06) Al: “One might consider there’s a copy of Stardew, shut up.” So, one interesting thing just before we actually talk about the game is, I feel like this has been shared, it’s been advertised on every single Kickstarter game update. (0:36:24) Al: I have seen in the last one exactly every single one of them they seem to be talking about this. (0:36:26) Kevin: I saw it on a link on one of the earlier news article links I put and clicked on. (0:36:33) Al: I am fascinated about by this like what is the deal behind this game? (0:36:38) Kevin: Raid Shadow Legends. (0:36:39) Al: So let’s do the usual blurb in this cozy farming game you have to run your own farm shop take care of your animals and your farm sell your goods to the cute forest folk (0:36:51) Al: upgrade the island and fulfill smart. (0:36:54) Al: No, fulfill small orders from the Harmony Tree to fill the island with life again. (0:37:00) Al: Nothing about this seems unique. (0:37:03) Al: Comparing to the previous one, this just looks like it’s a farming game. (0:37:04) Kevin: nope I yep the the one oh gosh even the four quote-unquote force folk just look like harvest sprites the one thing I will say I I have one thing I’ve wanted is to run the shop the shipping bin that’s it I don’t know if (0:37:08) Al: Hey look, it’s a harvest moon. (0:37:30) Al: Yeah, this is the thing about those is, so Ooblets had a way to do that, and there’s been a couple of other games where there’s been a little bit of it, and it always just feels to me like it’s just a really inefficient way of selling things, right? Because you have to go in and you put a few things out in the shop, and then you have to like, you either, they either implement like a haggling thing, in which case I always feel like I’m not getting as much as I could, or it just ends up being why can’t I just throw these in the shipping box, right? (0:38:00) Al: I don’t feel like any of them have ever done it well, (0:38:04) Al: and I’m not sure I trust this. (0:38:06) Kevin: I I don’t think not off not what I’m looking because like you know thinking farms like you’re growing (0:38:13) Kevin: Huge amounts of crops rolling bulk and so like I don’t know but (0:38:16) Kevin: Yeah, the shop doesn’t need that’s the add more to that because otherwise boy This much like its name takes after a lot of other games a boy am I look (0:38:28) Kevin: Studio Ghibli has amazing art stuff, but boy. I’m I tired of seeing that (0:38:34) Kevin: aesthetic in these games. (0:38:36) Al: Yeah, it’s not like it looks bad or anything, but it’s not and and the game doesn’t actually look like the trailer Right the trailer is completely like just random animated stuff (0:38:36) Kevin: Um… (0:38:38) Kevin: No! (0:38:46) Al: Well, I know it does have some of the gameplay, but like it starts off with that style (0:38:48) Kevin: Well, presumably we’re not 100% sure, but (0:38:51) Al: It’s a completely different style than the I suspect actually (0:38:54) Kevin: Yeah, true true (0:38:56) Al: It looks fine. It’s not like it looks bad (0:38:59) Kevin: Yeah, it just (0:38:59) Al: But nothing about it can especially comparing it to what we just talked about nothing about this excites (0:39:05) Kevin: Yeah, no, it’s it’s it looks fine, but not bringing anything new to the table. It’s a tough market (0:39:13) Kevin: Gotta do a bit more to (0:39:14) Al: Anyway, the Kickstarter is launching soon. (0:39:19) Al: Apparently, Steam says its planned release is Q2 this year, presumably that’s Early Access, (0:39:26) Al: but it doesn’t say on Steam that it’s going to be Early Access. (0:39:29) Al: I’m assuming they aren’t doing a Kickstarter to then release the full version in a matter of months. (0:39:37) Al: You would think not, but who knows. (0:39:41) Al: I noticed is Roca play. (0:39:43) Al: Uh, they. (0:39:44) Al: Are they a publisher or are they a developer? (0:39:48) Al: I’m not actually sure. (0:39:49) Al: They look to be both, but they did spells and secrets. (0:39:54) Al: They’ve done solar punk and they did, um, Oh, what was that one? (0:40:01) Al: There was another one that was like a, an island based one where you were like a pirate and you crashed into the island. (0:40:08) Al: And no, I don’t mean, and I realized that sounds exactly like the start of Dragon Quest Builders 2. (0:40:17) Kevin: Yeah, I don’t, um… (0:40:19) Kevin: Lose Lagoon? (0:40:21) Kevin: Castaway Paradise? (0:40:22) Al: Castaway Paradise. No, that’s not the one I was meaning, but that is another one that they’ve done. (0:40:25) Kevin: Stranded Sales. (0:40:27) Al: Stranded Sales. Yes, there we go. They did Strand- (0:40:29) Kevin: Oh my gosh, they… (0:40:31) Kevin: They actually have a game called Harvest Life. (0:40:34) Kevin: Oh my goodness. (0:40:36) Al: So, yeah, they did Beasties as well, which was the one that went on Kickstarter and then they cancelled the Kickstarter. (0:40:43) Al: And I don’t know, it’s a weird company. (0:40:46) Al: They have such an interesting mix of things that become really popular and things that are just really weird. (0:40:52) Al: Like Spells and Secrets has very positive reviews. (0:40:54) Al: It’s like 80% positive reviews on. (0:40:57) Al: And then Beasties has 50% rating. (0:41:00) Al: And she’s just like, that is such a big difference. (0:41:03) Al: They also have Super Dungeon Maker, which is like a… (0:41:06) Al: Zelda-style dungeon Mario Maker type thing, which has very positive reviews, it’s 84% positive. (0:41:17) Al: And Stranded Sales was… (0:41:19) Al: It was a game. (0:41:24) Kevin: That was a game. That feels like a few of these you could- (0:41:27) Al: Yeah, so like, you never quite know what you’re getting at Rokka Play. (0:41:31) Al: So, yeah, I guess we’ll see what happens. (0:41:36) Al: The punk hasn’t even come out yet, although it looks like they’re just publishing it, they aren’t… (0:41:40) Al: So I don’t… Yeah. (0:41:42) Al: There’s a lot of stuff. I’m not particularly excited about this one. (0:41:47) Al: But it is coming to Steam on Windows, Switch, PlayStation, and maybe Xbox. (0:41:53) Al: I don’t know whether that will be as a stretch goal, but it says Xbox question mark. (0:42:00) Al: So… (0:42:02) Al: Next, we have Sunkist City. (0:42:06) Al: life sim set in an upbeat sun-kissed seaside metropolis full of funky vibes and quirky characters. Stake out your new life in the city, tending to DIY gardens, learning new skills and making lifelong friends and help bring life back to its once vibrant streets.” (0:42:26) Kevin: I don’t know. (0:42:28) Kevin: I can’t tell if this game looks good or bad. (0:42:31) Al: So, well, let’s just put it, it is almost exactly this. (0:42:36) Al: Stardew style. Imagine Stardew, it’s that. It looks like that, but it’s based in a city, (0:42:47) Al: not a small village. Every single thing I see, it just looks, you could tell me this was a Stardew and I’d go, “Oh, they changed the UI at some point.” That’s what I would do. The keg looks almost identical and the cheese press looks very similar and like these things (0:43:06) Al: and that’s not necessarily a bad thing right like stardew did very well uh but I feel like (0:43:14) Al: what is this doing that would make me play it rather than stardew and i (0:43:19) Kevin: quirky character whatever they don’t seem particular one has blue hair they (0:43:22) Al: look characters are hard to do well and I the problem is that I i don’t think you can do i don’t think I don’t think many people could do stardew and I think many people could make stardew (0:43:36) Al: but not as well and that’s what this strikes me at it doesn’t look bad but I i’m really fascinated as to why I would want to play this rather than stardew is the story really good are the characters really good that’s what i’d probably be looking for (0:43:40) Kevin: Yeah, that’s a very good way. (0:43:49) Kevin: Yeah. (0:43:54) Kevin: Mmm. (0:43:54) Kevin: Yeah, because you’re right, like, I… (0:43:57) Kevin: I see absolutely nothing… (0:44:06) Kevin: Asphalt in this setting like there’s (0:44:06) Al: Yeah, yeah. And some buildings that look run down. There’s a ramen place. Okay. (0:44:11) Kevin: Yep, it’s (0:44:13) Kevin: Yep, that’s that’s kind of it. I don’t mechanically. I don’t see anything. I see fishing There’s no some type of gardening slash farming you even carry the items over your head all a stardew [laughs] (0:44:26) Al: Yeah, like the last game someone said it looks like a copy of Stardew, now this looks like a copy of Stardew, right? I don’t, again, I don’t want to like harp on it too much because like I’m sure it would be fun to play and I don’t want to put people down and I hope that, (0:44:42) Kevin: Yeah, again, it doesn’t look bad, but just… (0:44:43) Al: I hope that they’re successful but I just, (0:44:47) Kevin: It’s not standing out, right? (0:44:48) Kevin: And again, this is very… (0:44:50) Kevin: The cottagecore farming space, getting all buzzwordy here. (0:44:54) Kevin: Like it’s, it’s flooded with starting. (0:44:56) Kevin: It’s bad. (0:44:58) Kevin: So you’re going to put one out. (0:44:59) Kevin: You really need roots of Pacha. (0:45:01) Kevin: Do it in the Stone Age. (0:45:02) Kevin: Okay. (0:45:02) Kevin: And that’s something different. (0:45:04) Kevin: And it mechanically affects it, right? (0:45:07) Kevin: You have mam and stuff like it’s appropriate, but here in the city, (0:45:12) Kevin: you’re really just not seeing anything, uh, and again, this is just based off a handful of, uh, screenshots. (0:45:18) Kevin: So, you know, I could be speaking a bit too early, but I’m just not… (0:45:23) Al: So the interesting thing is, this is this developer’s second game, their first game came out in 2016, with its last update coming out in 2018. (0:45:32) Al: So I feel like they finished off that game, they saw Stardew Valley, and they’ve been working on that since then. (0:45:38) Al: Because Stardew got really popular in 2017, so just as they were finishing off. (0:45:44) Kevin: yeah that looks that’s exactly what it looks like ‘cause this is and their first game is wildly different called wasted it’s a post-apocalyptic pub crawler it’s in 3d and it’s a very wild looking game it does absolutely one thousand percent not cottagecore at all but uh… (0:45:58) Al: That looks more interesting to me. (0:46:05) Kevin: different game [laughter] (0:46:08) Al: Yeah, I don’t. Anyway, it’s there. It’s coming to Steam on all the platforms. So we’ll see, (0:46:18) Al: I guess. And the final one is Abyss New Dawn. Names, really? Names again, right? Like, is this a… Abyss New… It’s just games in general. But this is the thing. Why is it abyss new dawn. This makes it sound like it’s a second (0:46:28) Kevin: Why did it have to be so bad in this space? Why? (0:46:38) Al: abyss game, right? But also secondly, this describes i

Al, Kevin, and Micah go through the games of the year and crown their winner for 2023. Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:01:42: What Have We Been Up To 00:27:56: 2023 Releases 00:34:54: Previous Winners 00:36:30: Our Nominations 01:53:00: GOTY Debate 02:08:06: Decision 02:15:50: Outro Games Mentioned Games released this year Above Snakes Before the green moon Everdream valley Fae Farm Farming Simulator 23 Flutter Away Garden Buddies Garden In Harvest Moon: The Winds of Anthos Hello Kitty: Island Adventure Homestead Arcana Innchanted Lego Fortnite Loddlenaut Mineko's Night Market Moonstone Island My Time at SAndrock Paleo Pines Roots of Pacha Rune Factory 3 Special Season: A Letter to the Future Silent Hope Smushi Come Home Spells and Secrets Spirittea Sprout Valley Steamworld Build Story of Seasons: A Wonderful Life Sun Down Tchia Terra Nil Wildmender EA released in a previous year, 1.0 this year Ikonei Island Moondrop Sun Haven Coral island DDV EA released this year Cornucopia Fabledom Moonlight in Garland One Lonely Outpost Research Factory Song of the Prairie Snacko Previous Winners 2019: Doraemon SoS 2020: Summer in Mara 2021: Spiritfarer 2022: Ooblets Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of The Harvest Season. My name is Al. (0:00:39) Micah: I’m waiting, I’m waiting for you. (0:00:41) Kevin: Oh, I was waiting for you, too. I’m Micah. (0:00:44) Al: And we are here today to confuse you a lot. (0:00:46) Micah: And I’m Kev. (0:00:48) Kevin: There we go. (0:00:52) Al: It says, “We’re to talk about cottage core games.” (0:00:52) Kevin: Well, I mean, that goes without saying. (0:00:56) Al: Whoo! (0:00:57) Kevin: Whoo-hoo! (0:00:57) Al: Just, just in case people don’t know who they are, the names were the wrong way around there. (0:01:03) Al: So you know, they’re good luck. (0:01:06) Al: This is the fun episode of the year where I get two people on and we argue about which (0:01:14) Al: is the best game. (0:01:16) Al: And most of the time we come to a conclusion where we’re all accepting that that is our combined game of the year. (0:01:22) Kevin: Not this year. I refuse already. (0:01:26) Al: We will see where this year goes. (0:01:29) Al: But oh boy, oh boy, do I have some opinions. (0:01:34) Al: We’ll get to that when we get to that. (0:01:37) Al: Obviously transcripts are available for the episode and the show in general in the show notes and on the website. (0:01:44) Al: The game of the year stuff, Micah, what have you been up to? (0:01:46) Micah: I have been playing Dragon Quest Monsters 3 and I have also been playing Starfield quite a bit. (0:01:48) Al: Shock, shock harder. (0:01:52) Kevin: Good stuff. How many slimes are on your teeth? (0:01:59) Al: Interesting. What do you think? (0:02:01) Micah: I… (0:02:03) Micah: Okay. (0:02:04) Kevin: This, this is the response I hear every time I ask about it. (0:02:08) Micah: I very much understand two things. (0:02:14) Micah: I am a fan. (0:02:17) Micah: I am a fan of Bethesda game design and have been for many years. (0:02:22) Micah: So there is a level of comfort that comes with it. (0:02:27) Micah: I also understand that it is kind of dated game design. (0:02:33) Micah: And it all sort of feels the same as far as Bethesda goes. (0:02:40) Micah: But because I like that, I appreciate it. (0:02:44) Kevin: Yeah, no, that makes sense. I’m a Tetris fan, and Tetris hasn’t changed once in the 40 years it’s been out. (0:02:52) Al: That’s not true! That’s not true, Kevin. (0:02:54) Kevin: Yeah, I know that’s not true. (0:02:56) Al: We know, you know, you know that Tetris has changed. (0:02:58) Al: It has improved. It has moved with the times. (0:02:59) Kevin: Yeah, it is. (0:03:01) Micah: Tetris Effect is one of the greatest Tetris games of all time. Tetris 99. I would say, (0:03:04) Al: Exactly. Exactly. (0:03:06) Micah: I would actually argue that Tetris has done more changing than most franchises do. It’s kind of impressive. I don’t know, it’s kids. It can be cozy, right? Tetris can be a cozy (0:03:14) Kevin: You’re right, especially one we’re a fan of in particular. (0:03:19) Al: You don’t come, we don’t come for Tetris here, Kevin. (0:03:22) Kevin: I mean, we could. (0:03:28) Kevin: We could argue which one’s the best shaped piece. (0:03:31) Al: They also have their scam game that Cody’s playing. (0:03:31) Micah: Their scam game? No. (0:03:34) Kevin: Ah, well. (0:03:35) Al: Oh, have you not heard this, Micah? She’s playing a game that, like, you get points and then apparently once you hit a million or two million points you can win a free cruise, (0:03:45) Al: and I’m convinced it’s a scam. I’m waiting for the day that she gets to the right number of points and then, like, we never hear from her again because she’s, like, shipped off to have our organs harvested or something. (0:03:45) Micah: What? That does sound kinda scary. (0:03:49) Kevin: It does. (0:03:57) Micah: Dear God, all because of Tetris. (0:04:03) Kevin: Well, at least she had fun getting there. (0:04:05) Al: Anyway, so Starfield. (0:04:06) Kevin: That sounds like the game of the year to me. (0:04:10) Al: So what you’re saying is, if you like Starfield, you’ll like Starfield. (0:04:13) Al: That’s what you’re saying. (0:04:14) Micah: Yeah, if you like Bethesda games, Bethesda RPGs, (0:04:20) Micah: then you’ll probably like Starfield. (0:04:22) Micah: I think that there’s a lot of really neat things that they do with the. (0:04:27) Micah: Like space travel portions of it, there’s there’s a lot of really cool the like ship combat, space combat and stuff like that is very, very interesting. (0:04:37) Micah: It’s fun and the more that you kind of get comfortable with the how things function in the world, the you know, the more comfy of a game it is to. (0:04:49) Kevin: Okay, serious question. Have you played No Man’s Sky? (0:04:52) Micah: I have. (0:04:53) Kevin: to that (0:04:55) Micah: It is like if no man’s sky. (0:04:57) Micah: I had way more polished and was much more fleshed out and had much more like story elements to it. (0:05:09) Micah: I think that like primarily my enjoyment of Bethesda games comes from their writing. (0:05:17) Micah: And because there are just as an example, there’s a quest that I stumbled on by… (0:05:27) Micah: killing a space pirate and when I looked in his inventory there was a note and when I read the note that it unlocked this huge side quest that was like hours long. (0:05:40) Micah: Which is like I could have very easily missed that. (0:05:44) Micah: And I love that there’s such depth to like how stories play, like side stories even play out in Bethesda games like that. (0:05:57) Micah: So many times in Elder Scrolls games and things, you know, I’ll just stumble onto a cave and there’s a really deep story that’s written into this group that moved into this cave or whatever and it’s something that you could very easily miss. (0:06:16) Micah: It really makes me appreciate how much effort they put into writing things that people could never play in their, you know… (0:06:27) Micah: They’ll play through the game but there’s plenty of that in Starfield. (0:06:36) Al: Yeah, I think that’s fair. I’ve have enjoyed seeing a lot of the stuff online about all the kind of like side stuff, which has been for me, probably more fun than actually playing the game would be. So like, I totally get if you enjoy the game, then it makes it so much more fun, right? Because you’re finding all these things and just kind of stumble across this. But yeah, for me, it’s like, yeah, I enjoy watching someone post about it online or post a video or something like that. I think I know the side story you’re talking about, because that’s that’s the one that most people tend to go to. (0:06:42) Micah: Mm hmm. Yeah. (0:06:48) Kevin: Yeah. (0:07:12) Micah: Yeah, it’s a pretty important one because it, especially early on it, it gives you access to things that you would not have otherwise, that are pretty important. (0:07:22) Al: Yeah, you just confirmed it’s the one I’m thinking of. (0:07:28) Al: OK, well, I’m glad you’re enjoying it. That’s the important thing. That’s what we play games for. (0:07:30) Kevin: Yeah, well, we, we actually could do greenhouse. (0:07:32) Micah: And you know, I could talk about Dragon Quest monsters endlessly, but I’ll save everybody’s. (0:07:37) Micah: I’ll save everyone’s ears for… (0:07:40) Kevin: I didn’t all gladly listen to Dragon Quest talk for. (0:07:42) Al: Let’s discuss that later. (0:07:44) Micah: Yeah, I think that’s probably what I’m gonna be hanging on to that for is the the later (0:07:52) Al: Awesome. Kevin, what have you been up to? (0:07:55) Kevin: So it’s been a hot mince I’ve been on I think and the biggest life update for people who haven’t heard I have kittens now (0:08:05) Micah: kittens? No. When you okay, when you say kittens, obviously plural, how many are we talking here? (0:08:06) Kevin: Have I not showing you the mic oh I will text you a picture right now (0:08:11) Kevin: Yes (0:08:15) Kevin: We’re talking too so We started off with one (0:08:20) Kevin: So we’re looking for a new place to move into and at one of the places we’ve kittens they were giving (0:08:25) Kevin: away and so we took one home and then after some discussions we said you know what I bet this kitten could use a companion so we went back and got one got one of her brothers and so we now went from no kittens to two kittens pretty much out of the blue their names are teddy and daisy (0:08:52) Kevin: They are about seven, eight weeks. (0:08:55) Kevin: They are about eight weeks old. (0:08:57) Kevin: This is my first time owning cats. I’ve had a dog before, but never cats. (0:09:02) Kevin: It’s been enjoyable there. (0:09:04) Kevin: Fun, energetic, Daisy in particular is a little gremlin who loves to run around. (0:09:08) Kevin: Teddy, the brother, he’s a lot more chill. (0:09:11) Kevin: He is, yeah, I’m loving them so far. I love animals, right? (0:09:15) Kevin: And they were so little when we got them. (0:09:17) Kevin: They were only like four weeks old when we got them. (0:09:20) Kevin: So they were really little. They were like tripled in size. (0:09:23) Kevin: I took them to the vet for the first time. (0:09:25) Kevin: Yesterday, and aren’t they precious I I will have to find of us an alpix so he can post it with the show (0:09:26) Micah: Oh my god. (0:09:33) Micah: Who who’s the which one is the white and gray one? (0:09:37) Kevin: That’s Daisy (0:09:38) Micah: That’s Daisy. (0:09:39) Kevin: Mm-hmm and then (0:09:40) Micah: Daisy looks very much like my brother’s cat, zero, who is 18 years old. (0:09:43) Kevin: Oh really, huh Wow Wow, that’s strong (0:09:48) Micah: But the like identical like pattern and facial structure and. (0:09:51) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, Teddy’s really cute. He’s got a tuxedo (0:09:55) Kevin: pattern. He’s got gray fur, but like little white paws and, um, and Daisy’s black or black gray spots. Yeah, they’re adorable. Um, so yeah, they can be a handful at times as I’m sure cat owners know they can get all over the place. (0:10:10) Kevin: But, um, but I’ve been enjoying. Um, so, uh, yeah, that’s the big thing really. But, uh, (0:10:16) Kevin: other than that, probably the biggest things I’ve been playing lately. Um, I’ve really been getting through Tears of the Kingdom finally. I’ve pretty much (0:10:25) Kevin: at the finish line I’ve done all the big quests I’m just kind of going around hitting up all the shrines and filling out the map and so on and so forth but I could go take on Ganon anytime. That game is phenomenal it’s great I mean I don’t have to go in-depth about it I’m sure everyone knows how good it is right right but yeah very good game I yeah not much I probably could add and then the The other one is a… (0:10:42) Al: Speaking of games that have secrets. (0:10:55) Kevin: Street Fighter 6 (0:10:58) Kevin: So I am a fighting game fan. I am bad at them, but I love them (0:11:03) Micah: Hey, me too. (0:11:04) Kevin: I picked it up. Yeah, yeah, you got right. I’ve only played two weeks (0:11:07) Micah: On both fronts. (0:11:10) Kevin: Have you picked up Street Fighter 6? (0:11:11) Micah: I have not. (0:11:12) Kevin: Micah, okay (0:11:12) Micah: I have some friends that I have watched play. (0:11:14) Kevin: Okay (0:11:18) Micah: And I have some friends that are extremely good at Street Fighter. (0:11:23) Kevin: Yeah, yeah good. Oh man, hats off to them. (0:11:24) Micah: So I’ve seen some, you know, stuff that I’ve seen gameplay that I don’t fully understand because it’s too… (0:11:33) Micah: high level for my small brain to comprehend, but… (0:11:40) Kevin: That’s fine, I’m playing it and it happens to me. (0:11:45) Kevin: So yeah, the two big things, I mean Street Fighter, right? (0:11:47) Kevin: It’s the iconic series, (0:11:48) Kevin: so I’m sure people know what it’s all about, it’s fighting. (0:11:51) Kevin: But the two big things that it brings, (0:11:54) Kevin: the first is called modern controls. (0:11:57) Kevin: They have a new control scheme (0:12:02) Kevin: that simplifies basically playing the game. (0:12:05) Kevin: So traditionally you’d have to do a motion on your control stick and a button and all sorts of crazy combinations to get moves out. (0:12:15) Kevin: But they simplified it, (0:12:16) Kevin: where you can get moves out with just the press of a button. (0:12:20) Kevin: It’s very beginner friendly. (0:12:23) Kevin: Because of the convenience of that, (0:12:25) Kevin: they balanced it by reducing the strength of the moves and things like that. (0:12:32) Kevin: I think it’s great. (0:12:33) Kevin: I don’t play it much myself, I like the classic stuff, (0:12:36) Kevin: but it’s fun to see people use it and be able to play, (0:12:41) Kevin: get in without having to worry about not being able to do the moves. (0:12:44) Kevin: I say that as someone who is not always able to do the moves. (0:12:50) Kevin: And the second big thing that they have is called world tour mode. (0:12:53) Kevin: Have you guys heard of this at all? (0:12:56) Kevin: Yeah, oh man. (0:12:58) Kevin: So World Tour Mode is their single player campaign. (0:13:02) Kevin: The real kicker is that it’s a create a character mode. (0:13:08) Kevin: So you create your own fighter, but they’re sliders to your physical attributes. (0:13:16) Kevin: So you can be as tall, skinny, short, whatever you want. (0:13:19) Kevin: You can make monstrosity looking characters and it will affect your gameplay. (0:13:24) Kevin: If you have long arms, you will be able to punch farther or whatever. (0:13:29) Kevin: It’s pretty fun making your own character. (0:13:32) Kevin: I love it. You can hang out with the cast, which are filled with fun dumb moments. (0:13:46) Kevin: You can text all the street fighters. It’s really funny. (0:13:48) Micah: I am a big fan of a really ridiculous character. (0:13:48) Kevin: It’s so good. It’s probably the most ridiculous one. Just today I saw somebody look like a spaghetti with arms. (0:14:02) Kevin: It’s so good. There’s an online mode where you can bring your creative characters. You can have your freak matches. It’s great. (0:14:10) Kevin: Everything about that game is fantastic. The presentation, the music, the online play works great. I rarely have any bad connections for matches. (0:14:22) Kevin: I’m the character I picked up. Her name is Manon. She is a French supermodel. (0:14:32) Kevin: She is also a judo wrestler. She throws all of that in her move. She does struts, she does pirouettes, and she’ll grow you around. (0:14:40) Kevin: She’s very fun to play. That’s what I’ve been up to. (0:14:44) Kevin: Alright, Senor Al, what about you? (0:14:48) Al: Not a huge amount. It’s been a weird week, but I’ve been playing a bit of a Highland song. So for Micah, probably, who isn’t aware, it’s a platforming game based in the Scottish Highlands, and part of it is rhythm based. And it’s absolutely gorgeous. It has great music. The story is really good, and I don’t play games with the sound on, but I… (0:15:18) Al: can’t play this game with the sound off. Like, it’s just even outside of the rhythm, but it’s just so good. Yeah. Like, a Highland song. And it’s fantastic. So, okay, yeah, (0:15:30) Kevin: Okay, what are the rhythm portions like, because I know it was the Scottish game, but I don’t know what it’s like. (0:15:36) Al: okay. That’s a fair question. That’s a fair question. So, to preamble to that, the idea is that you’ve got all these mountains, and you’re climbing over them, and you’re trying (0:15:48) Al: to get to specific points. And there are places in the game where, as you are walking, (0:15:54) Al: it will tell you to press B to run. And then as you’re running across a terrain, there are things in the way, and the rhythm bit is you have to press it in time to the music to keep going and jump over the rhythm. (0:16:08) Kevin: Okay, that’s fascinating. Huh. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a rhythm platformer in the (0:16:19) Micah: This is beautiful. (0:16:20) Al: Right. Right. And the best thing is, so when you’re standing on, when you’re standing on a hill in the game and you can see all of the hills around you, all of those hills are hills you can go to in the game. (0:16:32) Kevin: Oh wow, that’s nice. (0:16:34) Micah: Wow. Yeah, this is a really pretty game. I’ve never heard of this. (0:16:38) Al: Yeah, it’s really I’m loving it. It’s great. Yeah, yeah, I came out a couple weeks ago. (0:16:39) Micah: Is it new? (0:16:44) Al: But it’s fantastic. And all the Scottish accents are legitimate. So no terrible Shrek voices. (0:16:50) Kevin: But, I mean, come on, don’t you want at least one Shrek in there? (0:16:52) Al: No, no, no. Definitely not. Never, never, never. Shrek is fine in Shrek. Not outside. (0:16:56) Micah: No, that was a very immediate no. (0:17:00) Micah: No, no, no, no, no, no. (0:17:00) Kevin: Ah, fair enough. (0:17:06) Al: We have enough fake Scottish. (0:17:08) Al: Voices in the world, there are very few things where we actually get proper Scottish voices. (0:17:13) Al: So it’s nice to actually hear some. (0:17:14) Kevin: Fair enough. (0:17:15) Kevin: Is David Tennant in it? (0:17:17) Al: I don’t think so, no. (0:17:18) Kevin: the- I’m sorry. That’s a missed (0:17:21) Al: His voice, there was something, I can’t remember what it was I was watching the other day and I was like, “Oh, that’s David Tennant.” Like I always, anytime I hear him doing his normal voice, (0:17:29) Al: it’s like such a distinctive voice for me that I’m like, “Oh.” It’s like, (0:17:33) Al: Every so often, somebody learns that David Tennant is Scrooge McDuck. (0:17:38) Al: And they’re like, “What? How’s David Tennant?” I’m like, “How could you not tell? His voice is just so distinctly his voice.” (0:17:39) Kevin: Yeah, yeah. (0:17:40) Kevin: - That’s… (0:17:47) Kevin: I, I didn’t know, I mean, I, I watched, I’m a big fan of the reboot of DuckTales, but I didn’t know it was David Tennant till a little bit in. (0:17:48) Al: Maybe that’s a Scottish thing, I don’t know. (0:17:57) Kevin: Um, and I didn’t realize he was Scottish. (0:17:59) Kevin: That’s, it’s really funny. (0:18:00) Al: Yeah, he’s not putting on a voice. He’s slightly emphasizing it, but that’s basically just his voice. (0:18:04) Kevin: Yeah, sure. (0:18:06) Al: Yeah, don’t do that again, Kevin. (0:18:06) Kevin: I like how he says “Gad-age” in the first episode. (0:18:09) Kevin: I always remember that one. (0:18:13) Kevin: That’s how he says it. (0:18:17) Al: So yeah, I’ve mostly been playing that and also been playing Pokemon because of the Flubbebe outbreaks, as I said, in the show notes. (0:18:27) Micah: Oh, that’s right (0:18:30) Al: baby baby. (0:18:31) Micah: Forgot that was going on. I forget it’s uh, well baby now and then (0:18:39) Kevin: Milsory in the (0:18:42) Al: So it’s current Flababy in Poldea. It is… no, it is not. It is Litwick in Kitakami. (0:18:48) Kevin: 3 in Kitikami. (0:18:52) Micah: Mmm. Yeah, because milsry is not in the game. (0:18:53) Al: Milcery isn’t in the game yet. Milcery will be in the Blueberry Academy when it comes out. So that’s why it’s not Milcery yet. It’s because it’s in the new region in the DLC. I think it’s just called the Blueberry Academy. Yeah. (0:19:01) Kevin: I haven’t gotten the DLC yet. (0:19:05) Micah: So just the new region, do we know what the new region is called? (0:19:07) Micah: Other than just, it’s the Blueberry Academy, is it just Blueberry Academy? (0:19:10) Kevin: That’s it. (0:19:11) Kevin: Yeah, it’s like an- it’s a- yeah, it’s part of- it’s Unovan territory, I guess, I know, (0:19:16) Kevin: but it’s like an artificial island sort of thing. (0:19:20) Al: Yeah, they call it like the. (0:19:21) Kevin: Terrarium. (0:19:24) Kevin: Yeah. (0:19:26) Micah: means I almost fear honest I mean it’s the like vibe that I got from it when I yeah we’ll see it’s always we’ll see (0:19:26) Kevin: Yeah. (0:19:28) Al: Yeah, it is pretty much, hopefully less evil, but we’ll see. (0:19:29) Kevin: now. (0:19:31) Kevin: Yeah, [LAUGH] I might get the DLC finally, the trit look. (0:19:40) Al: Oh, they are calling it the ceranium. (0:19:42) Al: They are calling it. (0:19:44) Micah: I was just recently finishing up my Pokedex, my like living decks in Violet in preparation for the DLC, but (0:19:57) Micah: there’s a lot of just figuring out how to who I knew who had the other Sinnoh starters, because you only get the like one egg. (0:20:11) Micah: And it’s dependent on, I guess, dependent on what starter you picked for. (0:20:15) Micah: For scarlet or violet. (0:20:16) Al: I think it was, or maybe it was random, I can’t- (0:20:20) Micah: I feel like it was, yeah, it seemed like from trying to track down where I would find a Piplup, it was, it was through like deduction power, the power of deduction (0:20:34) Micah: through who had what starter from the, from Paldea. (0:20:38) Micah: So I don’t know if that’s actually the case or not, but that’s, that’s how I managed to figure out who had. (0:20:44) Al: Yeah, I could probably find out if I cared enough. (0:20:52) Al: I mean, I still like, I don’t, I’m still enjoying it and I’m really looking forward to the new DLC, but Kevin, you don’t need to play it. (0:21:00) Al: You can just not. (0:21:02) Micah: It’s true. It’s true. I will say that I felt. (0:21:02) Kevin: Look, I’m– (0:21:09) Micah: I think we talked about this the last time I was on, actually. (0:21:10) Al: We did. (0:21:12) Al: We had a whole greenhouse episode about it. (0:21:14) Micah: I finally finished the DLC, the first DLC, because that was the right. (0:21:18) Al: Oh, yes. (0:21:19) Al: Yes. (0:21:19) Al: Cause you hadn’t finished it when we did the greenhouse. (0:21:21) Micah: And that is like rare for me, because I I go (0:21:25) Micah: pretty hard into Pokemon stuff when it launches for the first time. (0:21:28) Micah: So to not do that is kind of a new. (0:21:32) Micah: New and weird thing for me, but I finally finished it and I did enjoy it, but I did feel that it was a very, I don’t know, I just, I’ve, I’m still feeling like I’ve kind of become disillusioned with modern Pokemon to some degree, but. (0:21:49) Kevin: I mean and okay like to not I’m you know, I (0:21:54) Kevin: Notoriously nag on the game, but to pull the veil down a little to be you the more genuine here. I (0:22:00) Kevin: Do think the trailer for the upcoming one part looks good. I’m a bit excited for what I see (0:22:07) Kevin: the only part that (0:22:08) Al: Careful. (0:22:10) Kevin: Yeah, I know the only part that really irritates me is the flying thing how it’s locked behind the DLC because (0:22:18) Al: Yeah, I agree (0:22:19) Kevin: It’s just with knowing how the development cycle works and the timing of everything. It feels very intentional. They put bad flying (0:22:28) Al: Well, here’s the thing, I don’t care if it’s like, “Oh, we couldn’t get it done in time for release,” right? (0:22:34) Al: You still don’t have to lock it behind the DLC. (0:22:34) Kevin: Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Okay. But. (0:22:36) Al: They have updates. (0:22:37) Al: Every game has updates when there’s DLCs. (0:22:40) Al: So you absolutely don’t need to. (0:22:41) Al: It’s absolutely a very specific choice to lock that quality of life feature behind a purchase and that is bad and we should absolutely call that out. (0:22:49) Al: It’s not going to stop me buying the game though. (0:22:52) Micah: Yeah, I’m kind of in the same position. (0:22:56) Micah: I think there’s a lot of stuff that could just generally as far as the development cycle goes could have been changed for the better. (0:23:10) Micah: I had mentioned a little bit the like one time I’ve been on Twitter in the last like month after they talked about the they released. (0:23:22) Micah: It’s the new trailer this last week, I think. (0:23:24) Al: Yeah. (0:23:25) Micah: And they showed off the the like Pokemon control mode. (0:23:30) Micah: I forgot what they call it, but you can control the sync mode where you can control the Pokemon and run around as the Pokemon. (0:23:32) Al: Oh, yes, yeah, synchronize. Yeah. (0:23:32) Kevin: The sync mode thing. (0:23:40) Micah: And it seemingly has not much of a like use case other than you can battle Pokemon, but you just run around as a Pokemon. (0:23:50) Micah: And that to me, it. (0:23:52) Micah: Immediately, like I’d think back to when the games first came out and how much like disgruntledness there was with certain elements of the design that the games design, like how you couldn’t go into any of the houses. (0:24:09) Micah: But then they, you know, when they clipped out of bounds, then they found that there were like half designed internal locations like you could have gone into. (0:24:20) Micah: but it was very clear that they ran. (0:24:22) Micah: Out of time in the development cycle, just couldn’t, uh, so there are things like that where like I, it makes me feel like sync mode. (0:24:29) Micah: It was something that they just ran out of time on. (0:24:32) Al: So that’s possible, but I also think it could be along the lines of, like, let’s go Pikachu and Eevee to Legends, where we saw a clear direction they were moving. (0:24:43) Al: And it’s not necessarily, like, I don’t think anyone would say that the catching in Let’s Go was the way it was because they didn’t have enough time to do what they ended up doing in Legends, but it was more like a kind of moving in that kind of direction. (0:24:57) Al: And we see this with a lot of things in Pokémon where they do that, where it’s like, it’s It’s just a, it’s a. (0:25:02) Al: You’re prerequisite and the kind of like the game, it’s not like here’s a game, let’s build a game. Here’s another game. Let’s build another game, right? Like they’re constantly doing all these different things in these different games and having these different ideas. And that’s true. (0:25:04) Kevin: Yeah, baby steps. (0:25:16) Kevin: These I don’t think these are mutually exclusive either like (0:25:16) Micah: I think that I think that that I agree with that that makes sense. (0:25:22) Micah: But I do feel like there is a level of like (0:25:26) Micah: half baked development process for some of these things. (0:25:30) Micah: And I I am willing to, you know, give (0:25:30) Kevin: Oh, oh, they’re deaf at least. (0:25:34) Micah: well, for like like you said, for let’s go. (0:25:37) Micah: I think the the catch feature for let’s go was meant to more mimic Pokemon. (0:25:41) Micah: Go like it was very clearly there, like (0:25:46) Micah: the motion point between the main games and Pokemon go so that. (0:25:51) Micah: You know, catching style was intended to feel like I mean, it does feel like especially the motion control portion feels like Pokemon go. (0:25:52) Al: I mean, kind of, kind of, but I also like, with then we got only a few years later, legends, (0:26:05) Al: like it feels like it was what they kind of wanted to move towards and they were trying different things and this is what they ended up with. I don’t think it was just like, oh, (0:26:15) Al: let’s just make Pokemon go in a main series game. Like, I think it was, you know, they (0:26:22) Al: had a game which was legends where you were actually running around and literally just throwing Pokeballs at Pokemon, right? But, look, it’s not, yeah, I mean, it does show a flaw in how they developed their games and that these were almost certainly developed in parallel and therefore you can’t know what’s going to be popular and what’s going to end up working really well before you do it the next one. Yeah, I don’t disagree with you. (0:26:30) Kevin: And then they said, “Let’s go backwards at the next game.” (0:26:52) Al: I want that again. But anyway, we don’t need to keep talking about Pokemon. Let’s move on, shall we? This happens every couple of months we end up on another Scarlet and Violet delve. It did, it did. It did, but, you know, I need to save some of my Pokemon talk for a different podcast. Anyway, it’s, wow. Wow. (0:27:03) Kevin: But the trailer just came out. It was… it was gonna- (0:27:16) Kevin: We’re doing a worst games of the year pocket. (0:27:22) Al: Anyway, that’s what we’ve been up to. And I’m glad that we got a good half an hour out of that because there is no news because this is recorded out of time. Because I don’t know about you guys, but I did not want to record this on, you know, Hogman A. So we’re recording it a few weeks early. (0:27:46) Kevin: Where’s your dedication out? (0:27:49) Micah: What do you have things to do geez [laughs] (0:27:52) Al: So yes, yes, I do. So we are here to discuss our favourite games of the year and hopefully come to a conclusion on what the podcast’s game of the year is. So begins the part of the podcast where I read a bunch of words. So I am going to go down all of the games that were released this year. And at what point does this become ridiculous? I don’t know is this the most (0:28:22) Al: games we’ve had released in a year since we started the podcast? (0:28:24) Al: Yes, it absolutely is. (0:28:24) Kevin: Probably. (0:28:26) Al: Absolutely insane. (0:28:27) Al: One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, nine. (0:28:29) Kevin: More than three, I’ll tell you that. (0:28:31) Kevin: I didn’t know Homestead Arcana- (0:28:32) Al: So 30, 30, 30 games, (0:28:36) Al: 31, 30, 35 games, and then one, two, three, four, five, six, seven released (0:28:42) Al: into Early Access. So was that 42, 42 games in this list? (0:28:47) Al: So this is the first list is the list of (0:28:50) Al: that were released. (0:28:52) Al: Not into early access and they previously weren’t in early access. (0:28:56) Al: This is brand new games this year. (0:28:58) Al: Brand new games not early access. (0:29:00) Al: I don’t know why I overcomplicated this, but here this is what we’re doing. (0:29:04) Al: So this is Above Snakes, Before the Green Moon, Everdream Valley, Fae Farm, Farming Simulator 23, Flutter Away, Garden Buddies, Garden Inn, Harvest Moon, The Winds of Anthos, Homestead Arcana, Enchanted, Loddle Knot, (0:29:20) Al: Maneko’s Night Market. (0:29:22) Al: And this is me just double-taking. (0:29:48) Micah: Now if you thought that was it. (0:29:52) Kevin: I’m gonna feel bad when one of the real games of the year is in here and the ones that I didn’t play. (0:29:52) Al: Well, this is part of the problem. (0:30:00) Al: So next we have five games that were released in 1.0 this year and early access a previous year. (0:30:07) Al: OK, so they were already out, but they came to their 1.0. (0:30:11) Al: They left early access this year. (0:30:13) Al: That’s a better way of describing it. (0:30:14) Al: These games left early access this year. (0:30:16) Al: And we have Icone Island, Mindrop, Sunhaven, Coral– (0:30:22) Al: Island, and Disney Dreamlight Valley. (0:30:24) Al: And then we have the list of seven games that came into early access this year. (0:30:28) Al: And that is Cornucopia, Fabledom, Moonlight in Garland, One Lonely Outpost, (0:30:35) Al: Research Story, Song of the Prairie, and Snacko. (0:30:39) Al: Hey, Micah, is this the first time you’re learning that Snacko’s in early access? (0:30:42) Al: Or did you know that already? (0:30:43) Micah: Uh, no, yesterday when I opened Notion was the first time I learned this neck wasn’t really (0:30:50) Al: Well, surprise! (0:30:52) Al: in early access now. (0:30:55) Micah: I have I’ve played the betas or the alphas, sorry. (0:31:01) Micah: And I have decided that I don’t want to do much more with the game until it (0:31:10) Micah: they get a full release because I love it. (0:31:13) Micah: love it so far and I don’t want to overdo it. (0:31:16) Kevin: Yep, don’t burn yourself out on it. I know somebody who was a big fan of Hades, but they only played in the Early Access and they burned themselves out. (0:31:23) Micah: I don’t think I could burn myself out on it really as much as it’s just that like, I don’t want to miss out like because I backed it. And I want to, I don’t know, experience the full experience I’ve experienced so much of it at this point. (0:31:38) Al: I think that’s fair. I got to the same point with Coral Island last year where I was like, (0:31:43) Al: “And now I’m going to put it down into 1.0.” But I mean, that was like 40 hours or 50 hours or something like that. It was more than I play a lot of games, you know? And I didn’t feel like playing that much ruined the experience for me when I came to the final version, because I’ve put in more than… I’m up to 100 hours now in that game. So I think it depends on the game. (0:31:55) Micah: Mm-hmm. (0:32:07) Al: Uhh. (0:32:07) Al: Ah. (0:32:08) Al: But that is a fair point. (0:32:11) Al: I have not decided what I’m going to do with Snacko. (0:32:14) Al: I’ve not decided yet. (0:32:16) Kevin: Why did nobody tell me homestead arcana came out? I would have played it, I missed that. (0:32:21) Al: Kevin! (0:32:23) Kevin: I’ve been here. (0:32:24) Micah: Have I got news for you. (0:32:29) Al: Kevin, you literally, we literally have a shared list of all of these games and when they coming out, you can look at it all the time and I’m constantly updating it just to let you know that is a thing. (0:32:31) Kevin: Well, hey. (0:32:42) Kevin: You assume I read these even when we’re recording. (0:32:43) Al: Nope, I don’t assume that at all, but I will complain about it. (0:32:49) Al: So any thoughts before we get into listing our favorite games, any thoughts on the list as a whole? (0:32:56) Al: Here we go. (0:32:56) Kevin: Umm… (0:32:57) Kevin: Ugh… (0:32:58) Micah: It’s a good list (0:32:59) Kevin: It’s a very good list. It’s too good. (0:33:01) Micah: It’s a strong list that I (0:33:06) Micah: when I opened this this document and looked at it I was a (0:33:11) Micah: Surprised that so many games had come out this year and be a little bit (0:33:17) Micah: Concerned about how few of these games I actually played (0:33:20) Kevin: Exactly! (0:33:22) Kevin: Alright, time to strike out all the ones none of us have played. (0:33:26) Al: Yeah, no, that’s fair. And I think it is interesting, right? Because like, I’ve now been tracking these games. I think I have all of the farming games that have released ever now in my list. (0:33:36) Al: And so that’s 47 this year. Last year, there were 24. In 2021, there were 15. In 2020, (0:33:46) Al: there were nine. In 2019, there were 13. And then we’ve got like, between 2016 and 2018, (0:33:54) Al: were 16. (0:33:56) Al: So that’s like a three-year span, and they were the same number as they were in 2021. (0:34:03) Al: And then 2010 to 2015, there were 12 of them, half of which were just farming simulator, (0:34:10) Kevin: Yeah. (0:34:10) Al: and the other half were just harvest moon. (0:34:13) Al: That’s not true. (0:34:16) Al: There were three harvest moons, two rune factories in one story of seasons, and an animal crossing. (0:34:21) Al: So the rest were farming simulator. (0:34:23) Al: And then the five years before that, there were 17. (0:34:26) Al: It is wild that Stardew Valley is eight years old in February, just saying. (0:34:36) Kevin: Yup, thanks Stardew Valley. (0:34:43) Kevin: You changed the whole landscape of the genre of gaming, thanks. (0:34:50) Kevin: I thought it was older, to be honest. (0:34:53) Al: No, 2016. (0:34:56) Al: Right. (0:34:56) Al: Well, I mean, shall we get right into it then? (0:34:59) Al: Let’s go for one each around, what should we do around the table? (0:35:04) Al: One each. (0:35:04) Kevin: All right. (0:35:05) Al: And we can tell, say what the game is and tell me why you’ve got it in the list. (0:35:12) Al: And we’re not doing, no, it’s a terrible game. (0:35:15) Al: So Micah, would you like to go with your first one? (0:35:18) Micah: Uhhh… Can I go with my wildcard first? (0:35:20) Al: You can, you can go in whatever order you want. (0:35:22) Al: If you want to leave your strongest for last, go for it. (0:35:25) Al: if you want to start with your strong. (0:35:26) Al: Go for it if you want to do your crazy one first, do what you want. (0:35:29) Micah: I’m going to get my wild card out of the way because I know that it’s not going to go very far so. (0:35:31) Al: Let’s go for it. (0:35:34) Al: Never assume these things, you have no idea what’s going to happen. (0:35:37) Micah: OK, that’s true. You’re right. My my. (0:35:37) Kevin: I, I, yep, I. (0:35:39) Al: Oh wait, before we get into that, let me just quickly. (0:35:45) Al: I want to go through what we have had as our games of the year in the past. (0:35:51) Al: Last year, Ooblets won. (0:35:54) Al: 2022, Ooblets won. (0:35:57) Al: But it did. (0:35:58) Al: 2021 was Spiritfarer. (0:36:01) Al: 2020 was Summer in Mara. (0:36:04) Al: And 2019 was the Raymon Story of Seasons. (0:36:07) Kevin: Wildflower was robbed. (0:36:09) Micah: What year was Wildflowers? (0:36:11) Kevin: I don’t I (0:36:11) Micah: Oh. I mean. (0:36:11) Al: Yeah, Wildflowers last year. (0:36:13) Micah: Ooblitz though. (0:36:16) Al: None of the three of us had played it. (0:36:18) Al: And Kevin, you hadn’t played it by that point either. (0:36:20) Al: So… (0:36:21) Micah: Also- Also Ooblitz is- (0:36:21) Kevin: That is correct. (0:36:26) Al: Ooblets was the only… (0:36:27) Al: Well, you hadn’t played Ooblets, but me and Bev had. (0:36:30) Micah: Yes. (0:36:31) Al: And you had a wild card last year as well. (0:36:33) Al: So what’s your wild card this year? (0:36:35) Micah: What was my wildcard last year? (0:36:37) Al: Shinshan Summer Vacation. (0:36:38) Micah: Oh, I mean, that is actually I still stand by that. (0:36:44) Al: Look, I’m not saying it’s a bat, I’m just saying. (0:36:46) Al: Like it was a little bit out of life field, (0:36:47) Al: neither of us had heard of that game before you brought it up. (0:36:50) Micah: Well, let me tell you about my wildcard for this year, which I guarantee you have heard of. (0:36:55) Micah: There is absolutely no scenario where you have not heard of this game. (0:37:00) Micah: Are you ready? (0:37:02) Kevin: Is it the princess game? (0:37:03) Micah: It is Fortnite. (0:37:07) Al: OK, why? (0:37:08) Al: OK, so you– wait, no, no, right. (0:37:10) Al: OK, so, Micah, you’re telling me that over the past three days, (0:37:12) Micah: Uh-huh. Yeah. (0:37:16) Micah: Yes. (0:37:17) Al: you have played this game enough to consider it one of your favourite games of the year? (0:37:20) Micah: I would say that there’s a reason that it’s a wild card. (0:37:27) Micah: And I would say that it is probably the reason that it’s in my list is not because I would (0:37:33) Micah: personally consider it one of my favorite games of the year. (0:37:36) Micah: But I think that it is a very important bridge (0:37:42) Micah: for the wider Fortnite audience, which is massive, into the world of farming sims. (0:37:50) Al: Well, we will have talked about it in a previous episode, so. (0:37:50) Kevin: And hey, if we let them win… (0:37:52) Micah: For anybody that is confused by this and doesn’t understand why Fortnite is part of this conversation, (0:37:59) Micah: they just released… (0:38:02) Micah: Yes, the Fortnite, the LEGO Fortnite mode has been released as of three days ago. So… (0:38:10) Al: And for some reason, it’s basically Minecraft, but with more farming. It’s wild! (0:38:10) Kevin: Minecraft for tonight. (0:38:12) Micah: Yes, and also as Legos, and it’s in Fortnite. (0:38:15) Kevin: Yeah. (0:38:18) Micah: I don’t really know if there’s aside from skins and characters, there’s not. (0:38:21) Kevin: Wait, is it actually Lego brand? Lego? What? Holy moly. (0:38:24) Al: It is, it is. (0:38:25) Micah: Yes, it’s actually Lego brand. (0:38:28) Micah: And it’s you are just building Lego, (0:38:30) Micah: like a Lego like homestead basically of a village in the wild. (0:38:36) Kevin: That’s… (0:38:37) Micah: It’s essentially a survival, it’s more of a survival game than it is like (0:38:42) Kevin: Mm-hmm. (0:38:42) Micah: a farming sim. (0:38:43) Micah: So it’s more like you gotta eat and you gotta, there is, (0:38:44) Kevin: It’s all Minecraft. (0:38:44) Al: Yeah, but there does seem to be a decent amount of farming in it. (0:38:49) Micah: there is a decent amount of farming in it. (0:38:51) Micah: And I’ll say that I have played quite a bit of it because the team that I work with has been very into it. (0:38:59) Micah: So, and prior to that coming out, we had all been playing Ark, (0:39:06) Al: » Okay. Yeah. (0:39:06) Micah: the dinosaur survival game. (0:39:09) Micah: So we had a server that we were playing that on. (0:39:11) Micah: So when a new survive. (0:39:12) Micah: Survival type game released and it’s Fortnite and it’s free and it’s Lego then we were like, okay, well, let’s play this instead so we have been playing quite a bit of it and it’s I was a little bit shocked at how good of an experience it is because it’s it it’s just odd because it’s got other than the skins and the characters there’s and I guess the the game that it that you access it from there’s nothing related to Fortnite really it’s super obvious. (0:39:19) Al: suck (0:39:44) Al: No. Well, I think your character is in the beginning based on the main, the base Fortnite playable character, right? Yeah. It’s not Fortnite. It’s not Fortnite at all. So a couple of things I found interesting about this. So first of all, it made me realize that Fortnite is not just Fortnite anymore, right? Like Fortnite was just a battle royale, but that is just one of eight different game modes, right? Absolutely wild to me. (0:39:52) Micah: Yes. Yeah. So aside from the characters, I mean, it’s it’s really there’s not a lot of no, it’s not a (0:40:06) Kevin: Oh, it hasn’t been for a while. (0:40:08) Micah: Yeah. Right. (0:40:14) Al: That’s the point now. And second of all, not only is this, it’s like, it’s not just Fortnite, but Lego. It’s Fortnite, but Lego, if they made it Minecraft, but with more farming. (0:40:30) Al: And I am just, it’s just so fascinating. So I haven’t played a huge amount of it. I’ve downloaded it and I’ve started playing it and I’ve kind of done the first couple of things. And it’s not really grabbing me. I don’t think I’m going to spend a huge amount of time on it, but I think (0:40:44) Al: so. Minecraft, when we covered Minecraft on the podcast, it was, it was a bit of a stretch, (0:40:48) Al: right? There is farming, but it’s very limited. It’s like, it was four crops or something. There might be more now. Minecraft has done a lot since then, but it felt like a bit of a stretch. (0:40:58) Micah: Yeah, there is a significant differences between, you know, yeah, there’s quite a bit to do in Fortnite now, or in Minecraft, I mean. (0:41:05) Al: Yeah, but this feels like a legit farming game, but it’s not cottagecore. It’s survival farming game. (0:41:06) Kevin: Minecraft has not stopped growing, they do annual updates. (0:41:16) Micah: Mm hmm. (0:41:19) Micah: Yeah, so I guess it kind of it also is a little bit of like how you play it. (0:41:24) Micah: So like, granted, there is a survival aspect that needs to be taken care of. (0:41:29) Micah: But depending on who you’re playing with or the the you know, (0:41:32) Micah: there is a like peaceful mode that you can do similar to what Minecraft had, (0:41:36) Al: That’s a good point. (0:41:36) Micah: where it’s not really you don’t have to play the survival mode. (0:41:40) Micah: You can play it just for the sake of like, you know, (0:41:43) Micah: the kind of like sandbox aspect of it. (0:41:46) Micah: Where you’re building stuff and doing whatever you want. (0:41:46) Kevin: farming and whatnot. (0:41:48) Micah: Yeah. (0:41:49) Micah: But, you know, like with my group, I’m not as big into the survival aspects of it. (0:41:54) Micah: Like I don’t particularly care about, you know, min maxing food and water and so on and so forth. (0:42:01) Micah: I’m more into the like building and designing and, you know, farming and that stuff. (0:42:07) Micah: So I kind of take on that role while everybody else takes on the survival portion of it. (0:42:14) Micah: So there are different ways. (0:42:16) Micah: Is to be able to play it that make it a little bit more of like a comfortable experience. (0:42:22) Micah: I mean, I literally built a cottage, so I don’t know, you know. (0:42:25) Al: Yeah, that’s, I think that’s totally fair. I guess my point of what I was saying was, (0:42:26) Kevin: Nice. Well, there you go. (0:42:31) Al: was like, I think this is much more legitimate as a farming game than Minecraft was when, (0:42:38) Al: when we covered it. So I think it’s, it’s totally fair to count this as a farming game. (0:42:39) Micah: Right. (0:42:40) Kevin: Yeah. (0:42:42) Al: So maybe I should add it into the list as Lego Fortnite. Um, but here’s a question for you. Does this make Fortnite the most downloaded farming game ever? (0:42:44) Kevin: Oh, there you go. (0:42:54) Micah: That’s why I I’ve included it because I think it is important touchstone in the history of farming games where it (0:42:54) Kevin: Absolutely. (0:43:05) Micah: There’s a possibility I can see a world in which people who play this (0:43:10) Micah: Enjoy it enjoy the like farming aspects of it want more of that and branch out into other farming type games (0:43:17) Micah: because there is such a broad audience for fortnight that (0:43:21) Micah: You know and it’s there’s such a broad (0:43:24) Micah: Audience for Lego - that there is a good (0:43:30) Micah: Possibility that it creates more farming game fans, which I’m all for (0:43:35) Al: I’ve added it into the list and also I need to add one more that I forgot, which was Hello Kitty Island Adventure. (0:43:42) Kevin: Oh, yeah, well (0:43:42) Micah: I did see that that was missing from the list and I didn’t know if that was intentional or not so it just… (0:43:46) Al: Oh, you should have brought it up. Come on. (0:43:46) Kevin: Glaring a bit omission this entire show is a sham (0:43:51) Al: Look, look, we’re now up to 49 games, right? I’m sorry, I can’t keep track of the ball. (0:43:56) Kevin: It’s quick Somebody find one more quick Um one well, you know though what we have to do is we have to let fortnite win (0:44:03) Kevin: So we can get that sponsorship money. Welcome to the harvest season of fortnite podcast (0:44:06) Micah: - It’s true. (0:44:09) Micah: Of Fortnite, but I never, I just did not ever foresee (0:44:15) Micah: there being a scenario where in the farming game of the year discussion or just in general on a harvest season episode that I would be bringing up Fortnite in a like semi-serious way. (0:44:26) Kevin: Yeah, one thing I will I haven’t played Fortnite ever, but from what I understand, every time they bring in these new distinct modes or gameplay elements, it’s always very polished and good quality. (0:44:44) Kevin: Like they brought in Spider-Man swinging and Attack on Titan, so I’m not surprised that this is high quality and that’s a lot of money being thrown at this Lego money, Fortnite money. (0:44:57) Al: Alright, well, you’re probably right, it’s probably not going to win, but it’s there, (0:45:02) Al: it’s in the list, not many games get into the list. So, there we go. No, into the list of the two, there’s only nine. It’s only nine. Alright, Kevin, what’s your first? (0:45:06) Kevin: Nope just 48 others. Oh (0:45:10) Kevin: Our list, okay (0:45:15) Kevin: My first one I’m going to go with (0:45:19) Kevin: Manekos night market a shocker to everyone the game I’ve been pining for for how many years now. Oh (0:45:27) Kevin: gosh (0:45:28) Al: Like five, like maybe six. (0:45:31) Kevin: Yeah, I don’t know something like (0:45:32) Al: I think it was six years ago it was first. (0:45:33) Kevin: well (0:45:36) Kevin: Yeah, I think it’s I’ve the fact that I waited that long and still was happy with what came out I think is a testament to how good the game is (0:45:48) Kevin: Obviously, I haven’t played all these other games and it probably not even the ones on your guys list but I (0:45:54) Kevin: Out of the ones I see here. I probably I would argue it has the most personality and charm (0:46:02) Kevin: the art, the sort of craft book art. (0:46:06) Kevin: It has gone very, very enjoyable. (0:46:10) Kevin: I haven’t beaten it myself, right? (0:46:12) Kevin: It loses some points because it came out with a handful of bugs and rough edges. (0:46:18) Kevin: But it’s still a game that makes me smile every time. (0:46:24) Kevin: So yeah, I gotta give a shout out to Maneko because I think it actually did deliver. (0:46:30) Kevin: Um, obviously, you know, it’s not the scale of tears that– (0:46:36) Kevin: Kingdom waiting six years for that or whatever, but for the get what it set out to be from all the trailers and whatnot, I think it delivered. It’s very cute, which I appreciate now. I have cats myself. Yeah. (0:46:48) Al: Yeah, totally fair, and it is still the wallpaper on my phone and has been for like seven months, (0:46:57) Kevin: Yeah, there you go. Also actually one thing I (0:47:01) Kevin: Yeah, that’s the good stuff (0:47:04) Kevin: one thing I do want to add (0:47:06) Kevin: Go on as we talked about in the episode. We talked about it. Um, the (0:47:11) Kevin: titular night market part of it is very fun (0:47:15) Kevin: Auctioning going into little bid war with customers to sell who and make profits and whatnot (0:47:20) Kevin: I don’t think a lot of these other games are focused on that like making money (0:47:26) Kevin: So that was (0:47:27) Kevin: a refreshing angle approaching the whole cottagecore thing. (0:47:32) Kevin: And again, just very fun points for that. (0:47:36) Al: Awesome. (0:47:36) Micah: Uh, I, are, are we just for the sake of the structure? (0:47:43) Micah: Are we just going through our picks and then discussing them or are we? (0:47:48) Al: If you have more to talk about that game just now, then feel free. (0:47:53) Al: We don’t need to discuss whether it’s the winner yet or not. (0:47:55) Micah: Sure, uh, oh (0:47:55) Al: And don’t say whether it’s on your list yet or not. (0:47:56) Kevin: Yeah. (0:47:58) Al: We’ll get to that. (0:47:59) Micah: Okay, I (0:48:00) Kevin: Alright. (0:48:03) Kevin: Michael, what’s next on your list? (0:48:03) Al: Right, we don’t want to look, Micah, we have a collapsed list for the suspense. (0:48:05) Micah: Didn’t didn’t say one way or another (0:48:05) Kevin: I’m kidding, I’m kidding. Ow, ow. (0:48:11) Al: We’re keeping the suspense, even if it might really be obvious now. (0:48:12) Micah: Okay, you’re right you’re right you’re right (0:48:14) Kevin: Alright. (0:48:16) Micah: It’s not though cuz I’m changing it at the moment I’m typing no, I’m just kidding [laughing] (0:48:18) Al: All right. I’ll go with my wild card. No, no, come on. I’m going with my wild card, (0:48:24) Kevin: Alright, ow. (0:48:26) Kevin

The first episode of the 4th season of "Coping" discusses practices for celebrating Thanksgiving and carrying gratitude through the entire year. Kathy and Kevin love Thanksgiving for the food, family gatherings, and chance to reflect on blessings because reflection can bring about new direction and understanding. Practices like daily celebration and reflection can build gratitude. Learn how you can turn your Thanksgiving into Thanks-living and join us on December 7th, 2023 for our "Review Your Year" workshop. Kevin: Well, hi everyone. Welcome back to a new season of coping. Kathy: Yes, today we're pausing our series on rest to have a special Thanksgiving podcast. Kevin: Yes, we hope that you all are enjoying your Thanksgiving week. If that's when you're listening to this episode. We wish you all a very happy Thanksgiving. Kathy: What's your favorite part of Thanksgiving? Kevin: Good question. Okay, so this is going to surprise you a little bit. My favorite part about Thanksgiving is how much food is made and that it gets spread out over many more meals after the holiday itself. Which -- you know me really well --it's strange because I don't actually like leftovers other times of the year. It's really only Thanksgiving that I enjoy having the same food multiple days after the big feast. Kathy: And I'm the opposite. I love leftovers and I love spreading out all my meals. So I'm excited to talk about Thanksgiving, leftovers, pumpkin pie, I'm getting hungry already. Kevin: Yes. Kathy: Let's get started. Kevin: So this week we celebrate Thanksgiving and I know it's one of your favorite holidays. Why do you love Thanksgiving so much? Tell me about it. Kathy: Yes, I think I love Thanksgiving. Of course, it's always about the food on the foodie. But I think the deeper celebrations of gathering around tables, it is a holiday celebrated by most everyone. I like the inclusive nature of the holiday. And I love the focus on gratitude, celebration, Thanksgiving, and the gifts of this year. Kevin: I know also that your birthday, especially this year, falls really close to Thanksgiving. And so in our household, it's a really fun time of year where we get to do a lot of celebrations for you and then lead us right into Thanksgiving holiday meal and time with family. Kathy: And so let's revisit this concept of the leftovers that we discussed earlier. Talk to me a bit about that. What is this Thanksgiving leftover theory that you have? Kevin: You know, when I think about Thanksgiving and gathering with friends and family, and food being the centerpiece of that, the thing that gathers us together. And I love that idea that we have one big elaborate feast with friends and family for fellowship, but what we take with us is not just the food and a carryout, to-go bag, but we take with us those memories that shared time together, and then it rolls itself into the rest of the weekend, into the rest of the end of the year. And it's just a, I think, a great opportunity for us to remember that giving thanks doesn't have to be just one time a year, that we should have a practice of giving thanks. Kathy: Yeah, I really love this. One of my favorite authors Ann Voskamp says that, "our goal is to turn our thanksgiving into thanks-living." And we have done one of our previous podcasts on this, and we had a guest, Anleisha, who told us her story about that. But I think today's podcast, we wanna give some practices that will help turn this Thanksgiving into Thanks-living. Kathy: The first is celebration. How do you use celebration as a spiritual practice? Kevin: Yeah, oh, absolutely. Celebration is a big one. So let's start with the definition. Oxford Dictionary tells us that celebration is the action of marking one's pleasure at important events or occasions by engaging in enjoyable and typically social activities. And so we all do this in really natural ways, right? We have our birthdays and anniversaries and, you know, the holidays, it's on our minds, it's on our calendars. We gather and we celebrate these things. I think perhaps this year, more than most, the practice of celebrating in the midst of so much chaos in the world, so much upheaval in our personal lives, celebration may not feel like a natural thing. It may not be our natural inclination this year. And so what I want to call to mind is another type of celebration, another type of Thanksgiving in the midst of so much chaos. And I'm reminded of a quote from a dear friend of mine, Father Mark, who always likes to say, "it's always important to balance the bitter with the sweet." And what he means by that is to remember the sweetness of life when life feels especially bitter. And the best way to do that is with a piece of cake, a piece of pie, a little bit of ice cream or some candy, something just to savor and to enjoy in the midst of very unenjoyable times in our lives. And so I think maybe this Thanksgiving is where we take time to balance all the bitter in the world with a little bit of sweetness. And that's the food that's on the table, the friends that sit around the table with us and the fellowship that we get to share. Kathy: Yeah, that's such a wonderful practice, an idea. Speaking from my recent celebration experience of this past week, which was my birthday, it was a great pause in the midst of a very chaotic and difficult month, I would say, to focus on joy and gratitude. And it was uplifting. It didn't seem natural. It didn't seem like, "oh, let's stop and celebrate." But we did anyway. And we were all better as a result. I love Adele Calhoun in her book, Spiritual Disciplines Handbook. She speaks of celebration as one of those disciplines. And she says, “when we're able to set our hearts on this joy, it reminds us that we can choose how we respond to any particular moment.” When we can set our hearts on joy, that will remind us that we can choose how we can respond to any particular moment. Kevin: That's right. If we can choose to celebrate in the midst of chaos, that also teaches us how to respond in times of crisis. So we have this practice of celebration, and we know the importance of celebrating daily and weekly and monthly as we just talked about. What is another practice that we can do to extend thanksgiving to every day of the year? Kathy: Sure. The next one we want to discuss is the practice of reflection. So we just talked about celebration. And that is a pause. Reflection is also a pause, but it's the intentional practice of pausing to remember. We are doing the looking back in order to figure out how to move forward. And this could take the form of written, where we're doing like journaling, that sort of thing, or it can be oral where people are, even like if you think about reflection happens in memorial services, where we're doing a reflection back -- Kevin: Telling stories. Kathy: Telling stories. Correct. You and I do a year-end review with our family, where we actually look back. Kevin: Yeah. So we've developed this booklet, it's called Year in Review, that we do every year and as the kids have gotten older we've included them in this and it's kind of a fun ritual that we do in our family. But basically there's these questions that we look back on the year and talk about and write the answers down and some of the questions that come to mind are like your biggest accomplishment this last year, best new purchase -- Kathy: Favorite movie, best vacation -- Kevin: Best new hotel, best new restaurant, things like that. Kathy: Hardest challenge. Kevin: Yeah, there's a lot of really good questions to reflect on and to remember and I'm always surprised at the end of the year, the amount of things that we did. The year goes by so fast and I think I have developed a practice of forgetting in order to cope with all of the challenges in life. But when we choose to reflect and then remember the good things in the midst of all the hard things that have happened, it's always such a meaningful practice. And I always feel like the year feels a little bit more meaningful because we take that time together as a family. Kathy: Yeah, I love what you said about the forgetting part, right? So much is happening. We need the pause. And that reminds me of Emily Freeman's quote, where she says, "the problem isn't that we aren't learning. The problem is that we forget." So I think what happens is we're just going 24-7. And we're consuming a lot and we're never pausing to digest it and then also figure out what we have learned. Kevin: Right. Kathy: So if we don't take these pauses for reflection, we're not making the most of the opportunities that come our way when we can't reflect back on that. They just are just sort of like passing us by. So let's just say that we go through the whole we go through a year, years, not journaling or making note of or highlighting things. Then we turn around and years have passed and we're like, what did we even do? And what are we doing it for? Kevin: I know for me, especially in my line of work, I go from one crisis to the next. And the next thing you know, you look up and it's like the end of the year or like the middle of the year. And I'm like, wait, how did that happen? And what I hear you saying is that reflection helps get the control back of the time that feels like it slips away so quickly. But more than that, it's an opportunity to learn and to grow from all of our experiences so that we're living life, not just trying to cope and survive and deal with all the problems that come our way. We can actually take some of the control back, some of the slow the time down. just a little bit through taking that time to reflect. Kathy: It lifts us out of reflection, will lift us out of survival into significance. Kevin: Yeah, that's really good. So how do we do that though? Like life is chaotic, there are hard things. What does that look like to take time to reflect? Kathy: Yeah, so we can do a daily reflection practice, the practice of the examin, some of you may be familiar with, and that is a daily practice of looking back on your day. You're asking the questions, basically what happened in my day today? And where was I present? Where was I not? Oh, what happened at that moment? It's such a good reflection practice to do that daily. And then you can also go on to do this, of course, weekly and monthly. And it is just about stopping, pausing, recognizing the gifts of these days. Kevin: Yeah, so in chaplaincy we have this philosophy "Action Reflection Action", meaning with everything that you do, especially when you're first learning like clinical pastoral education, that everything that you do, you take time to reflect, to learn from and to improve the practice. But it's certainly a philosophy that extends beyond a residency into a full-time chaplain role, that you're taking time to reflect, to make meaning, and to improve your practices going forward. And I think for me, reflection is simply looking in the mirror. And instead of just seeing yourself in that reflection, you get to see your soul. And so reflection can be something that we do looking backwards, because a mirror only reflects backwards, it doesn't reflect forwards. But when we look backwards, that's the way that we're able to make sense of where we've come from, so we have a better idea of where we want to go. Kathy: Excellent. So, to sum it all up, we have some celebration and reflection practices that we're all going to begin to utilize. We hope that this has given you some small steps toward having thanks -living this year, instead of just Thanksgiving. And speaking of reflection, we have our annual Review Your Year workshop coming up on December 7th. Everyone is invited to this. It is a time of celebration and reflection, where we get to look back on this year, all that it brought to us. We talk about our word that we had, and we're also setting an intention. So if you are interested in that, please sign up on our website at BeWellResourcesLA.com, and we'd love to have you. To close our time today, Kevin:, would you lead us in a Thanksgiving meditation? Kevin: Yeah, I'd be happy to do that. Meditation: We're going to start with me asking just a few questions that I'd like you to reflect on. If you want to write your answers down, that'd be great, but if not, you can just call them to mind as well. So the first question is, what are two attributes of God you appreciate most today? The next question is, what's one thing you're celebrating today? The next question, what's one thing you're reflecting on today? And finally, name three things you're most grateful for today. So this meditation is a fill in the blank blessing. As I read this blessing, reflect on these things that you're grateful for. And when I pause, fill in your own words to complete the blessing. Let's pray. God, thank you for being _________. Today, I will choose to celebrate __________. Because I see this as a gift from you. Today, I will take time to reflect on __________. Because I'd like to remember __________. I thank you for all the blessings in my life, but today, I'm most grateful for these three. The first is _________. The second is _________. And finally _________. And so I conclude by simply saying, "thank you."

Kev and Kelly do a second harvest of Graveyard Keeper Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:17: What Have We Been Up To 00:06:11: News 00:34:56: Graveyard Keeper 01:14:29: Outro Links Coral Island 1.0 Moonlight in Garland Early Access Sun Haven 1.3 Update Fabledom Fairytales & Community Update Moonstone Island Eerie Items DLC Lonesome Village Physical Edition Garden Story Translation Update Fantastic Haven Graveyard Keeper Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:32) Kevin: this is kelly ween this is kelly ween kelly ween kelly ween and in this show uh we talk about games that are filled with cottage gore yeah hi everyone welcome to the harvest season um with me today is kelly i’m kevin she’s actually gonna be here for well spoilers but then she’s gonna be on next week too she were on last week I bring it up because last year you were on for Halloween we did Cult of the Land. (0:00:47) Kelly: Hey. (0:00:57) Kelly: Oh, I forgot about that. (0:01:02) Kevin: And so, yeah, so, well, that’s exactly right. (0:01:03) Kelly: Is this just like my thing? (0:01:07) Kevin: Um, yeah, you’re Kelly our pumpkin queen. (0:01:10) Kevin: So here we are. (0:01:11) Kevin: Um, she’s all about this stuff. (0:01:14) Kevin: And so we are here today to talk about graveyard keeper, another, um, cottage gore game, um, technically this is a second harvest episode. (0:01:25) Kevin: Uh, Raschelle covered it way back. (0:01:28) Kevin: Like the first Halloween episode. (0:01:32) Kevin: And so I knew about it for years, but I didn’t get a chance to play it until recently. (0:01:37) Kevin: Um, and Kelly has played it significantly. (0:01:40) Kevin: Um, yeah. (0:01:40) Kelly: I only got out of it though last year. I was very new to it, so… (0:01:44) Kevin: Well, still more than I have. (0:01:49) Kevin: I’ve only played, uh, just a handful, relatively speaking. (0:01:51) Kevin: Um, but yeah, that’s, uh, we will get to that soon enough. (0:01:58) Kevin: Um, but before that, as always. (0:02:02) Kevin: Show notes and links and the transcripts are all available on the website for people to see and look at and on. (0:02:09) Kevin: Ooh, and whatnot. (0:02:11) Kevin: Um, and, uh, before the graveyard keeper will do news as always. (0:02:17) Kevin: And more importantly, what have you been up to Kelly? (0:02:19) Kevin: What have you been playing, watching, doing, yada, yada. (0:02:21) Kelly: Um, playing? I’ve really been slacking. I’ve been playing solitaire in Pokemon Go, which is not… It is, but I just… I get stuck playing it, and like, it’s fun, but I’m also like, I could be playing something better. (0:02:37) Kevin: Yeah, I mean it’s like comfort food sometimes it just it’s simple and I get it Exactly sometimes you just need a mindless game Okay, okay madman okay, I have not watched it. I’m familiar with it. That’s the one with That’s the one like 50s (0:02:37) Kelly: Um… [laughs] (0:02:39) Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It’s like, thoughtless. Um… (0:02:50) Kelly: But I just… (0:02:51) Kelly: I rewatched Mad Men, so that I think is more exciting. (0:03:05) Kelly: yeah like 60s advertising, yeah. (0:03:05) Kevin: add agency right (0:03:07) Kevin: 60s okay all right how how mm-hmm how long is it like the whole thing oh wow that’s longer than expected well that’s cool yeah sure (0:03:07) Kelly: uh I was a big fan when it came out. (0:03:12) Kelly: uh it’s like seven seasons I think? yeah seven seasons. (0:03:18) Kelly: yeah when I first ran I jumped ship like I think after season five. (0:03:25) Kelly: uh I mean it’s not the worst last two seasons but they’re not as good. (0:03:32) Kelly: Good. (0:03:34) Kevin: Um, let’s see, uh, well, I’ve last week we covered paleo pines actually kept up with it a good bit after There was a patch that dropped It’s been a big dinosaur for a week for me. I watched Jurassic Park this week again - (0:03:35) Kelly: What about you? What have you been up to? (0:03:52) Kevin: Boy, that movie’s real good good other than that Yesterday I cried that Super Mario wonder it just came out yesterday (0:04:04) Kevin: the newest one for this switch and It’s a good one Um, I’ll plug the rainbow road radio the other show I do with our mutual friend Alex We did our first look at it on that show. We just recorded and that’ll be dropping soon It’s fantastic it’s There’s I’m only a little bit in like on the second world but like every (0:04:23) Kelly: What do you think of it? (0:04:34) Kevin: level feels like it is introducing something new and different and I mean classic Mario is good you know 2d it’s your standard 2d Mario and whatnot so the gameplay is good and it’s just filled with all sorts of fun surprises and delights I’m going to spoil people on probably the best part that I’ve experienced so far there’s this level it’s like the second or third level you can do. (0:05:04) Kevin: There’s a bunch of piranha plants popping out of the pipes and you run and jump past them and whatnot. (0:05:09) Kevin: And then there’s the Wonder Flower which changes the level in different ways or whatnot. (0:05:15) Kevin: So when you touch the Wonder Flower, it starts this musical production and all the piranha plants just start singing. (0:05:23) Kevin: And it’s incredible, you entice everyone to at least look it up. (0:05:29) Kelly: I actually, I saw it on TikTok this morning and I was like, hmm, okay. (0:05:30) Kevin: It’s just so much fun. (0:05:34) Kevin: It’s so, because it just, right? (0:05:37) Kelly: Very much unexpected. (0:05:38) Kelly: I thought it was like somebody made it at first, like, you know, somebody edited it. (0:05:41) Kevin: Yep, it’s so out of the blue. (0:05:42) Kelly: But no, it was real. (0:05:45) Kevin: Yeah, no, it’s good. (0:05:48) Kevin: It’s really funny and yeah, the game just brings smiles to me every level with all sorts of unexpected twists and turns like that. (0:05:56) Kevin: So yeah, Mario Wonder, two thumbs up for me for sure. (0:05:59) Kevin: Like I said, people can go to Rainbow World Radio to hear more in-depth thoughts. (0:06:04) Kevin: But, yeah, that’s mostly what I’ve been up to. (0:06:08) Kevin: And now, with that, let’s hop on over to the news. (0:06:15) Kevin: We have, as always, a handful of, mostly game updates. (0:06:19) Kevin: Yeah, there’s a lot of game updates for some reason right now. (0:06:24) Kevin: So we’re going to start off talking about Coral Island. (0:06:30) Kevin: Okay, the one, okay, this is a big one. (0:06:34) Kevin: For people who may not remember, Coral Island is your standard Stardew-esque, well, I say standard. (0:06:40) Kevin: It’s got all your fixings, your farming, and it’s on an island, hence the name, right? (0:06:46) Kevin: So it has the tropical aesthetic and whatnot. (0:06:51) Kevin: But the big news is the 1.0 version is launching on November 14th, which is exciting. (0:06:58) Kevin: They have a trailer, and it looks expansive. (0:07:05) Kevin: There’s a lot going on. You have your farm, you can go underwater, you can meet mermaids, you can do your romancing, (0:07:12) Kevin: you can do, I think there’s even a race in there somewhere. All that good stuff. (0:07:18) Kevin: It looks very polished and like a 1.0 game. You can also… (0:07:22) Kelly: Yeah, I was going to say, it definitely looks like there’s, it looks a lot different than like the first, you know, clips I saw of it. (0:07:30) Kevin: Yep, absolutely. Yeah, it’s definitely a game now, for a better way of putting it. (0:07:36) Kelly: Yeah. (0:07:37) Kevin: And you can also dress up as a panda or dinosaur, so you know, there’s a lot going on there. You also get your little animal crossing, you can redecorate your house wherever you want. (0:07:49) Kevin: Oh, you can even have a baby in this, that’s wild. Yeah, that is dropping on November 14th, (0:07:58) Kevin: just a couple of weeks and it will be dropping on Steam, Xbox Series X/S, and PS5 they’re hoping for a 2024 release for a Switch version. Do you think you’ll try Coral Island or look in its general (0:08:12) Kelly: I think I might. I think it definitely looks really cute. I think it depends on if I’m playing anything, you know, when it comes out. I’m trying so hard not to, like, backlog myself. (0:08:22) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, that’s the hard part right too many games Yeah, no, that’s that’s a good idea I definitely have bought back So I respect that I think you can romance a mermaid so, you know, I’m not that going free I wonder how that’s gonna work. How are they gonna move up the land or vice versa? (0:08:43) Kevin: It’s a two-story floor but the bottom floor is underwater [laugh] (0:08:44) Kelly: just uh living in a two separate homes kind of situation there you go (0:08:52) Kevin: I’m down for that, um, yeah, right now it’s only 25 bucks, oh that’s not bad for this, that’s, that looks like a lot of content for 25 bucks, so, um, get excited. (0:09:06) Kevin: Um, oh, oh yeah, okay, sure, yep, that makes sense, that’s fair. (0:09:07) Kelly: Oh, it does say it’s going to release, I think, at $30, though. (0:09:11) Kelly: There’s a note about the price adjustment. (0:09:14) Kelly: But the diving looks really cool. (0:09:16) Kelly: I played a lot of Dave the Diver over the summer, (0:09:19) Kelly: so I feel like I’m still looking for games where I can go exploring like that. (0:09:19) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s good. (0:09:23) Kevin: Yeah, it does look good for like the animation stuff. (0:09:29) Kevin: I’m also a big fan of underwater type games and it looks very expansive down there. (0:09:35) Kevin: So yeah, there’s a post on Steam page with all the updates and everything. You guys can check it out. (0:09:44) Kevin: If you do have early access, it looks like there will be a save reset. (0:09:53) Kevin: So there is that. But, either way, November 14th, I look forward to it. I might actually check it out now. It looks pretty… (0:10:00) Kevin: So, next up we have Moonlight and Garland. (0:10:06) Kevin: I don’t know if this is a game announced, but it’s… (0:10:09) Kevin: Yeah, I guess it is, because they’re announcing their early access October 24th, which will probably already be out by the time people are listening to this. (0:10:18) Kevin: This is… here, let me read their, uh… (0:10:22) Kevin: The elevator pitch, where is it? (0:10:24) Kevin: A cozy open-ended life sim about finding your feet in the big city, decorate your apartment, make new friends, grow too many houseplants, and love your city life. (0:10:33) Kevin: Um, so it… yeah, it’s… it’s city-based, right? So you’re in an apartment, you’re not running a whole farm, but you can grow plants, you can have pets, um, make relationships and whatnot. (0:10:46) Kevin: The art style is… (0:10:48) Kelly: That’s the most realistic farming sim. (0:10:52) Kevin: » [LAUGH] (0:10:54) Kevin: » No, you’re right. (0:10:59) Kevin: » Yeah, yeah, Kelly can. (0:11:00) Kevin: Well, no, you’re in the house now, you’re not in an apartment anymore. (0:11:03) Kelly: No, but definitely, you know, went through that also, like, how do I keep my plans alive in my apartment when there’s no sun? (0:11:04) Kevin: But yeah, you know the feeling. (0:11:12) Kevin: Man, gosh, you’re super right. (0:11:16) Kevin: Boy, there’s a person showing an apartment with a lot of bunnies in their apartment, that seems difficult. (0:11:23) Kevin: You’re gonna have that many bunnies in an apartment. (0:11:26) Kevin: The art style is, it’s 2D pixelated, but it’s not Stardew-esque. (0:11:31) Kevin: It’s a little more cutesy than that, and I don’t know how to best describe it. (0:11:35) Kevin: And all the NPCs are kind of bobbing their head at the same time to some unknown beat, it is cute looking. (0:11:43) Kevin: And it’s only the early access, so I’m sure it’ll grow considerably more. (0:11:51) Kevin: That is, you know. (0:11:52) Kevin: October 23rd? 24th? I’m seeing two different days. (0:11:58) Kelly: I definitely want to follow up on it because just looking at the coming soon photo, it’s like why is there an iguana on the sidewalk? (0:12:06) Kevin: Hahaha! (0:12:06) Kelly: Can I have an iguana? (0:12:07) Kevin: Wait, you havin’ a guana? (0:12:08) Kelly: And then there’s also the bear man. (0:12:10) Kevin: Wait, wait, wait, wait, let me see, which one are you talkin’ about? (0:12:10) Kelly: I’m on the steam page, the early access release. (0:12:14) Kevin: What? (0:12:15) Kevin: Okay, okay, let me see… (0:12:17) Kelly: So in the coming soon photo that says steam early access, October 24th, whatever, wishlist now. (0:12:27) Kevin: Okay, okay. Oh, I’m looking at the wrong page. I would explain it wouldn’t it? Yup. There it is. Okay Yeah, I was looking the wrong page. There is a bear man. Why is there a bear man? (0:12:28) Kelly: There’s a bear man in the iguana, like do I get a pet iguana, do I get pet pigeons? (0:12:37) Kevin: Okay, I Okay, I want to mine a department full of pet iguanas that that I can do they’re pretty low-key There are pigeons. So, you know, definitely, you know, they’re hitting Oh, are they gonna have the the trash bags out on the sidewalk? (0:12:55) Kevin: Are they gonna go all in on the city? (0:12:57) Kevin: I don’t know if garland is a city name. It’s a city in texas. I know that much. (0:13:11) Kelly: Yeah. (laughs) (0:13:28) Kevin: But yeah, coming soon, early access. (0:13:31) Kevin: Next up, the clip side of early access, we got DLC patches, whatever you want to call it, for Sunhaven. (0:13:39) Kevin: This is the magical-esque farm where you do magic, there’s monsters, dragons, etc. (0:13:51) Kevin: It is patch 1.3, which includes new buildings. (0:13:58) Kevin: There are several that don’t look human, one is an angel, just straight up an angel. (0:14:04) Kevin: One guy is blue, he’s a moon attendant, whatever that means. (0:14:11) Kevin: You have to, they will be unlockable at some point, but that’s fascinating, dating non-humans like that. (0:14:20) Kevin: Oh, they will have a couple of other romancibles coming later this year. (0:14:28) Kevin: They will also have new farm structures and buildings. (0:14:32) Kevin: Greenhouses, silos, chicken coops, butterfly gardens, I like that. You don’t see that in farming games. (0:14:38) Kelly: That’s very unique, yeah. (0:14:40) Kevin: That’s cute, I love a butterfly garden. (0:14:44) Kevin: Monocyphoners, glorite siphoners, I don’t know what they are, workshops, and ticket counterfeiters. (0:14:54) Kevin: I don’t know what that means, but you’re counterfeiting. (0:14:57) Kevin: They’re up to crimes. I like that. (0:14:59) Kevin: I want to know why you can do crimes. (0:15:01) Kevin: Tickets for what? (0:15:03) Kevin: I don’t think they’re concert tickets. (0:15:05) Kevin: That’s fascinating. (0:15:07) Kevin: But yeah, there’s a whole bunch of other stuff. (0:15:10) Kelly: A lot of stuff. There’s like a ghost shed kit? I want a ghost shed. (0:15:11) Kevin: What does that mean? (0:15:18) Kevin: Do you keep ghosts in there? (0:15:19) Kelly: You grow them in there, maybe? (0:15:21) Kevin: I don’t… (0:15:23) Kevin: Oh wait, there are variations. (0:15:25) Kevin: variations because there’s pumpkin and mushroom. (0:15:27) Kevin: It looks like a ghost, oh I see it. (0:15:29) Kevin: Yeah, it has the eyes, the windows look like eyes and the glow, okay. (0:15:29) Kelly: Oh! (0:15:31) Kelly: That makes so much more sense because I was like oh mushroom shed. That’s just a shed where you grow mushrooms, you know That’s and then I just took the rest of them like that [laughs] (0:15:33) Kevin: Um, sh*t skins, yeah it does. (0:15:36) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, okay. (0:15:44) Kevin: Um, oh that’s the butterfly, wow those are big butterflies. (0:15:47) Kevin: Um, oh those are fascinating buildings. (0:15:49) Kevin: Um, let’s see, player birthdays. (0:15:53) Kevin: There is the birthday, birthday celebration. (0:15:57) Kevin: There is a huge pinata that you can hit, so I’m already down for this. (0:16:01) Kevin: Um, geez that’s like a full sized lion looking pinata, that’s great. (0:16:06) Kevin: Um, that’s uh, so all that’s included in the patch. (0:16:10) Kevin: Aside from that there will be DLC available. (0:16:13) Kevin: Um, all six different packs, trick or treat, spirit battle, rock and roll, cyber pop, monkey monkey, and dreamy ram. (0:16:22) Kevin: They’re all, they contain different items, packs, outfits, items, whatever. (0:16:27) Kevin: You guys can check the Steam page for details. (0:16:30) Kevin: Uh, for, yeah, there’s more details out there than we talked about, but, uh, yeah, that seems like a hefty patch. That seems like fun. (0:16:38) Kelly: Yeah, there’s a lot in this. This page goes on. (0:16:38) Kevin: Um, uh, yeah, it does. Um… (0:16:41) Kelly: And there’s even a coming soon, so… (0:16:43) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, they’re talking about future. (0:16:47) Kevin: Um, wow, new season of weather. Wow. (0:16:50) Kevin: Gloomy, what’s the difference between rainy and gloomy rain? I don’t know. (0:16:55) Kelly: Um, I think there’s I could I could understand that one (0:16:55) Kevin: But there you go All right, yeah, I guess. Okay, uh See like out here in Georgia. It’s a little more like rain. Not gloomy rain. Gloomy rains like hurricane force rain That’s what I think Wait no, yeah, okay. I get it (0:17:10) Kelly: No, I think gloomy rain is like when it’s kind of cold and like the sky is just dark and grey all day and it’s like just kind of constant. Like you could have nice rain, like you could have sunny rain, you could have like… (0:17:24) Kevin: Yeah, I do enjoy sun showers. (0:17:25) Kelly: It doesn’t have to be gloomy. (0:17:26) Kelly: Just like a normal rain shower isn’t always gloomy. (0:17:27) Kevin: You’re right. (0:17:28) Kevin: Yeah, no, you’re right, okay, um Yeah, so there’s all the whole bunch of stuff you guys can check that out Is that sorry? Yeah, when’s the release? I didn’t it’s it’s Oct they posted it October 20th It is oh, yeah, it’s already out on Steam. Yeah, so Now time this recording which means by the times you guys are listening. It is definitely available. That is again Sun haven (0:17:58) Kevin: Huh? Oh man, I’m just looking at the picture like a big tree man monster. I might have to check this out I like tree monsters. I I haven’t played a magic game in a minute. Well, I mean, well, maybe our keeper gentle notwithstanding Um, but it’s high, you know fantasy magic II I’m down for that. I could use that Yeah, uh, okay speaking of well, I don’t know more updates (0:18:04) Kelly: right? like i’m kind of like- i’m intrigued. i’m definitely very (0:18:17) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:18:18) Kelly: I feel like this is pretty different, yeah. (0:18:28) Kevin: We have so this is The what I refer to as not a city builder but a village builder because it’s medieval villagey themed But you’re helping build the whole village and run everything it is currently in early access and they are dropping a update for it I’m excited for this game myself. I’m gonna wait for the 1.0, but I love the art style. It’s cutesy and goofy (0:18:59) Kevin: and they are dropping all sorts of things in this update including a An encounter with a misunderstood Cyclops who’s very cute. His eye is just a dot His name is Eric one eye you can there will be a witch’s hut a red hooded girl Who’s looking for her grandma’s house? That that’s a speech. I don’t trust that at all. Oh, no, I don’t like that Hemisary gnomes (0:19:26) Kevin: It was seriously rare! (0:19:28) Kevin: And then a fawn with a really big nose and mustache. Oh, I like this guy. (0:19:33) Kevin: There’s a… and a few more. (0:19:36) Kevin: Well, those are fun characters that they’re adding. I love the art style and it looks really fun on these mythical, magical, whatever you want to call them. (0:19:46) Kevin: Cyclops and fawns. Gnomes. They’re fun looking characters. (0:19:48) Kelly: No, yeah, they look they look so cute. It looks very adorable (0:19:49) Kevin: Yeah. (0:19:51) Kevin: Yep. (0:19:53) Kevin: There are, oh gosh, 50 new world events and 30 new objectives. (0:19:58) Kevin: I don’t know what that means, but those are big numbers. (0:20:00) Kevin: Oh, there’s a magic bean. (0:20:03) Kevin: There’s monthly and yearly objectives. (0:20:06) Kevin: Hot weight. Positive and negative events. Oh, oh, they’re, they’re, they’re wild. Okay, I’m down for that. (0:20:15) Kevin: They have, let’s see, new buildings, a laborer guild. Oh, so you can hire better laborers. That’s fun. A bank. (0:20:24) Kevin: Oh, you can tax your villagers at different rates? (0:20:28) Kevin: Oh, that’s awesome. Grand theater? Oh, that’s a nice looking theater. (0:20:34) Kevin: Fisherman’s hut? Fish up stuff? All sorts of quality of life stuff? (0:20:40) Kevin: Well, there’s a lot of graphs in this game and things like that. I’m down for that. (0:20:45) Kevin: Yeah, that’s a lot of stuff coming. Like I said, I’m probably going to wait for 1.0 myself, but I’m glad that it’s coming along nicely. Yeah, that is again fabled. (0:20:57) Kelly: Is there any, is there any real estate or? (0:20:59) Kevin: Go. Oh, it is live. That update is already live as of this recording. (0:21:05) Kevin: So, yay. If anyone is playing the one point or the early access, first of all, (0:21:10) Kevin: somebody tell me if they are because I want to know about it. And it is out already. (0:21:15) Kevin: Um, yeah. All right. Good. Oh man. I’m just trying to fable them. It’s so goofy looking and the. (0:21:23) Kelly: Is there like an overall release date or no? (0:21:33) Kevin: uh not that i’m saying now um I have left here a quick glance um yeah so probably still a hot minute probably sometime in 2024 i’d hope but uh it’s not dead yet so i’ll take that let’s see next up we have uh moonstone island we have dlc for that this is which one’s this one okay all right we so we have dlc come (0:22:11) Kevin: Well, let me get to the details. Yeah, it’s the Halloween update right? That’s the key thing here. Um, (0:22:16) Kelly: I think so, ‘cause it’s for Halloween. (0:22:17) Kevin: We’ve got just a whole bunch of Spooky decors per their website gravestones skeletons a big old pumpkin house um Web’s five types of cobwebs. Oh Oh a rug. That’s just the tongue. That’s clever. I like that. Um, (0:22:38) Kevin: uh So yeah, there. (0:22:41) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:43) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:45) Kelly: I’m sorry, it’s actually not out yet. (0:22:45) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:47) Kelly: It’s not out, which I’m kinda… (0:22:47) Kevin: Um, there are n- some- the- so some of this stuff is DLC, which I’m assuming means purchasable separately, but there will be stuff included for free in the updates on the skeletons and things like that. (0:22:58) Kevin: Um, spirits are free- I don’t know what spirits are in the context of this game, but um, but they’re coming some out. (0:23:05) Kevin: Um, oh wow, I didn’t check- it’s got some good reviews. (0:23:09) Kevin: Um, I’ll have to check that out. (0:23:11) Kevin: Oh wow, what? Oh gosh, I forgot about- I’m remembering the game. (0:23:15) Kevin: There’s- you can fight like robots with a card battling system. (0:23:19) Kevin: They are… (0:23:21) Kevin: Yeah, oh man, oh gosh. (0:23:23) Kelly: These are really cute looking things, these creatures. (0:23:26) Kelly: I, yeah, like, I really like the style of it, yeah. (0:23:26) Kevin: This whole episode’s just me getting excited about games I forgot to get excited about. (0:23:31) Kevin: Um, as if I didn’t have enough already. (0:23:33) Kevin: There are really cute characters- there’s a fishbowl with legs. (0:23:36) Kevin: Um, I like that. (0:23:39) Kevin: that. And then at the end they just. (0:23:41) Kevin: Have a picture of a cat with like a sun hood. I don’t know but um, it’s very cute cat. (0:23:47) Kevin: That is Moonstone Island. That is already out, I believe. Why do we have a date for that? (0:23:52) Kelly: It is a very cute cat. (0:23:54) Kelly: The game is out, it says “NA” for them. (0:23:56) Kevin: Okay, thank you. But it says, while says it’s October 27th. I (0:24:06) Kevin: Couldn’t find that myself. Oh wait. Yeah, there it is. Yeah, October 27th. It’s only $4. (0:24:11) Kevin: Okay, that’s actually not bad at all and 10% off the first week. So there’s 46. (0:24:18) Kevin: Yeah, okay. Oh, it’s a new spirits must be a little monster buddies. That’s what it means. I’m excited. One looks like an apple with a worm through it. They’re just showing silhouettes. I’m just guessing. (0:24:23) Kelly: There you go. (0:24:29) Kevin: And yeah, I don’t know all that. Oh, I might check this out now. It’s a very cute game. (0:24:34) Kevin: Moonstone Island. Um Let’s see Next up we have oh, this isn’t an interesting (0:24:41) Kevin: one because boy, I never thought we’d see this this is Lonesome Village game that I notoriously advocate because the developers are from Mexico. It’s got the cute coyote as you saw puzzles in a tower. They’re coming out the fiscal edition. Pre-orders are live. You can check the show notes for the link. It is not from limited run games actually. A game a site called premium edition games. (0:25:11) Kevin: physical edition which includes all sorts of goodies including oh wow a full-color manual oh that’s exciting Wow a dog tag yeah they do um oh man a manual that’s exciting um yeah it’s great um yeah I I cover this game with Johnny, it was last year or year before, I don’t remember. (0:25:22) Kelly: Dude, the indie games always put so much into like what you get from… (0:25:32) Kelly: I love a manual. (0:25:33) Kelly: A full color manual too, that’s so nice. (0:25:41) Kevin: It’s a fun little game with lots of puzzles, and just very very cute little animal-closing-esque villagers. (0:25:47) Kelly: It looks really cute. The art style kind of reminds me of like Cult of the Lamb, but without the like paper feel. (0:25:47) Kevin: It’s actually funny because in the “story” of the game, so it’s called Lonesome Village because there’s a village and everyone’s kind of been turned to stone or disappeared. (0:26:03) Kevin: And the villains, they’re the people who did it very much look like Cult of the Lamb. (0:26:06) Kelly: Okay. (0:26:07) Kelly: Oh! Oh! It’s a cult! It’s a cult! What is happening here? (0:26:09) Kevin: Yeah. (0:26:12) Kevin: It came out around the time Cult of the Loom. (0:26:14) Kelly: I’m watching the trailer! Oh my god! (0:26:15) Kevin: It looks a lot like Cult of the Loom. (0:26:18) Kevin: The cult from Cult of the Loom. (0:26:20) Kevin: I think we made the joke in the episode. (0:26:22) Kevin: It came out around the same time too. (0:26:25) Kevin: Yep, yep, exactly. Yep. (0:26:26) Kelly: That’s so funny, ‘cause I was thinking it kinda like reminds me of the way they do the animals, like the style of the animals. (0:26:32) Kelly: But now that I’m watching this trailer, it’s like literally… (0:26:32) Kevin: It’s cult, it’s a lot like Cult of the Loom, Cult. (0:26:36) Kelly: That’s so funny. Oh, I gotta play this. (0:26:41) Kevin: Yeah, I have to check it out again. I still have it. (0:26:45) Kevin: It’s been a while. I’m sure they patched it up and done some stuff. (0:26:48) Kevin: ‘Cause I had a few rough edges back then, but I’m curious. (0:26:51) Kevin: I might do another look at it at some point. (0:26:54) Kevin: Because, yeah, props to–but, again, Mexican dev team, so I gotta shout them out. (0:26:59) Kevin: Ogre Pixel, that’s the name. (0:27:02) Kevin: But, yeah, that is a cute little logo of an Ogre–Pixillator Ogre. (0:27:07) Kevin: And again, this is the physical edition release. (0:27:11) Kevin: $40 for the premium edition, which seems to be their only version but includes all sorts of goodies. Um, I When do pre-orders end? I don’t know if I see that but the pre-orders are available now So you can check out the site and get it. Um Alright next up we have Not Garden Galaxy is perfect. We’re heading on the notes. That’s a different game that I was going to cover almost (0:27:42) Kevin: Garden story. That’s the one with the playable grape. That looks a lot like Stardew Valley a lot like It has It’s very cute though the grape that’s playable It is an update that has 11 new languages. Wow, that is a lot of languages I don’t know which ones they are. I just see the It’s out on Steam and switch already this update (0:28:09) Kevin: Very cool. Yeah, I actually don’t know what language is. I don’t know. (0:28:11) Kevin: Let’s see the details. But wow, that’s a big number. Good for them. (0:28:16) Kevin: Always props for making it more available for more people and whatnot. (0:28:19) Kevin: Yep. It is. The grape is very cute. (0:28:20) Kelly: Yeah, that’s always awesome. It really does look like stardew though. It’s cute though (0:28:25) Kevin: Next up, a new game announcement for as far as I can tell. (0:28:31) Kevin: This is called Fantastic Haven, which actually I find really intriguing. (0:28:36) Kevin: It’s the prime… (0:28:40) Kevin: Let me read the– (0:28:41) Kevin: The elevator pitch. (0:28:43) Kevin: So, this is a… (0:28:57) Kevin: Yeah, a Zook cheaper-esque type game, but they’re all magical creatures. (0:29:03) Kevin: Um, so you’re building big pens that look like circular homes more? (0:29:09) Kevin: Um, you alter the land and… (0:29:11) Kevin: It’s full 3D graphics, um, the… I think the actual designs of the creatures are actually quite nice, um… (0:29:18) Kevin: I like animals and critters and… (0:29:21) Kevin: …cheaping them and whatnot, so I’m already pretty interested, um, especially with the spin of… (0:29:26) Kevin: …like, they’re all magical creatures, I don’t see any other animals in here, I see like a griffin, uh… (0:29:31) Kelly: No, I’ve only seen, like, yeah, griffins and some weird frog with, like, horns and stuff. (0:29:31) Kevin: Yup, it’s a bullfrog, you get it? (0:29:36) Kelly: Ah, yes, yes, yes. (0:29:41) Kevin: The color shows a lot more, uh, it looks like you’re even busting some out of, like, cages and, like, carny… (0:29:46) Kevin: …you know, those carnival cages with the wheels, the cars, um… (0:29:51) Kevin: So that’s… that looks very fun, yeah, like I said, a lot of menus, probably, um… (0:29:57) Kevin: …very zookeeper tycoon-esque, um, but with the heavy, uh, magical fantasy paint over it, um… (0:30:06) Kevin: So that is right now the only release date planned is for Q2 of 2024 so it’ll probably be a minute but look forward to it I certainly am those are some fun designs yeah it’s it’s it’s charming enough for me I’m definitely interested um and then lastly okay this one I want to talk about in depth a little more because this one’s affecting me personally uh well actually there’s two me and my neck was night market once again got another patch that one. (0:30:41) Kevin: one point two point one oh whatever the it’s out on switch so you know it’s out on the steam version or whatever um so uh there’s a lot of quality of life stuff you can do with it. (0:30:48) Kevin: I’m not gonna go into the details because I don’t remember them but the other one I want to talk about because we just talked about last week is paleo pines. (0:30:53) Kevin: We just got yup okay so uh one point two point one oh whatever the it’s out on switch so you know it’s out on the steam version or whatever um so uh there’s a lot of quality of life stuff you can do with it. (0:30:54) Kelly: Which I still have to play, but I have not yet. (0:31:11) Kevin: We can change how quickly time passes in the game um oh gosh so one of the after I recorded last week with Spencer and we talked and played I was getting a lot of crashes. (0:31:23) Kevin: They had released a patch previously to fix some of that they said it was like a memory issue um but they were still experiencing it. (0:31:26) Kelly: Mmm. Okay. (0:31:31) Kevin: I felt like the more farther I got in the game the more I was crashed getting crashes uh they addressed some of that. (0:31:37) Kevin: that the game is still not free of crashes because (0:31:41) Kevin: we’ve been probably within an hour after downloading the update the game crashed on me again But it is better in general So they’re definitely aware and working on it at probably top of their list There is Also, there’s a whole list and you can check the show notes for them. I’m trying to look at which ones that are Stand out to me. Oh, there’s a cooking pot (0:31:46) Kelly: Oh, God. (0:32:07) Kevin: But it was weird because it was at some other guy’s house you have to go all the way to this other (0:32:12) Kevin: cook stuff but now you can buy one for your own ranch so that’s great oh here’s a fun one um so you can ride your dinosaurs because of course you can but the thing was whenever you got off of them they would just run away from you at max speed it was whole it was wild you could like try to stop them but um clearly not intended they have addressed that and and this definitely was an update needed and and it works um they will no longer run away from you when you get off of them (0:32:42) Kevin: um yes well luckily I think it was only in the ranch like your home base when it happened they wouldn’t leave you when you’re out in the wild oh my god that would be the worst yes but it’s still a pain because your character is a lot slower than the dinosaur so yeah yeah it’s just a pain having to go across the ranch to find them I mean it’s a pretty big ranch too um (0:32:44) Kelly: feeling it’s like okay nice I can I can get to the place I’m going to but once you’re there you’re stuck there now (0:32:56) Kelly: Oh, okay, okay, I was picturing like you, yeah, like you in the middle of like some field or something. (0:33:12) Kevin: uh there’s all sorts oh horse lock so there was a uh resource called forestwood that was needed for a lot of things it was pretty rare they increased the respawn on that that’s great um they did some ui improvements which were nice uh um lots of other things some oh there was a storage glitch spencer talked about think they fixed that um yeah just sort lots of little things (0:33:42) Kevin: because there were lots of little things that needed fixing um like I said still not 100 percent yeah yeah there is um where is it do they not have it um so there there is I read there is one glitch that they haven’t addressed yet um they know it’s an issue but for some reason at some point and it’s happened to me your game will reset to the first day of the game because there’s you know calendar like most farm. (0:34:12) Kevin: games and whatnot like you’ll keep all your stuff but somehow the calendar will just have reset to the very first game or very first day of the year which is wild um luckily I was able to get around that if you encounter it you can just reload an old save and it’s fine but um that was the wild glitch to see um but yeah that was I’m glad that came out because that addressed a lot of the little nitpicks Spencer and I had with the game and I’m sure (0:34:42) Kevin: they’re still working hard on that so good for you paleopines that update again is out already for switch and probably the other versions whatever versions it’s on all right so that was uh yeah the hearty helping of news and things but that’s now we’re doing that let’s talk about grave graveyard keeper yeah what’s what’s the tagline the most inaccurate medieval simulator isn’t that (0:35:09) Kelly: Something like that. I know inaccurate is involved of [laugh] (0:35:14) Kevin: Hold on let me look at it. Um the most inaccurate cemetery simulation game. Okay. Yeah, I think that’s what it is Okay Well Yeah, so again, um It and this game’s been up for years at this point. Um, I’ll covered it years ago Yeah. Yeah, there you go. That’s cute (0:35:24) Kelly: Oh, the most inaccurate medieval, yeah, cemetery sim of the year. (0:35:36) Kelly: Uh, they had their five year anniversary actually in August. (0:35:42) Kevin: There’s a bunch of DLC I bought the (0:35:44) Kevin: version with all the DLC I don’t know what the base game hazard does not have. (0:35:48) Kevin: I’ve only played it for an afternoon or two. I don’t think I’ve reached any of the DLC portions yet probably. (0:35:49) Kelly: Oh, did you? Okay. (0:35:57) Kevin: They’re all parody names there’s a stranger sins there’s breaking something (0:35:57) Kelly: Um, I’m trying to remember. I know the DLC… (0:35:59) Kelly: Yes, because there’s better save soul. (0:36:04) Kelly: Um, I did look into getting them, but I didn’t- I didn’t, because I think it was like- (0:36:11) Kelly: I feel like there’s- there’s so much going on in this game already. (0:36:14) Kevin: Even if it is, there’s a lot going on. (0:36:14) Kelly: Uh, that I was very happy to not have the added, um, things that like go along with the better save soul one. I heard that gets a lot of pretty tedious. (0:36:24) Kevin: Yeah, heh heh heh. (0:36:25) Kevin: Better save solo, that’s good. (0:36:29) Kevin: I don’t think that one’s out on Switch. (0:36:31) Kevin: That’s it? I don’t know if that one’s out on Switch. (0:36:32) Kelly: Oh, are you playing on Switch? I am not gonna lie. I have not. (0:36:36) Kelly: I’ve been so bad at playing my Switch this year. (0:36:44) Kevin: But, I mean, that’s fine, like, I know that the Switch port gets black for a good reason. (0:36:55) Kevin: There’s a Switch tax for sure, so I don’t blame you. (0:36:57) Kevin: But hey, at least we can compare notes on that. (0:37:00) Kevin: If you played on Steam, I would guess? (0:37:10) Kevin: Um, but okay, so let’s okay, let’s the elevator pitch Okay, first of all, I didn’t expect that this game’s an isekai That I didn’t expect at all so for people unfamiliar with isekai that is a genre of anime primarily where a character wakes up in a simulated often fantasy type world (0:37:38) Kevin: Sword Art Online and just… (0:37:40) Kevin: …other ones. It’s a whole trope now. (0:37:42) Kevin: Umm… (0:37:43) Kelly: I was gonna say it breaks the, you know, inherited your grandpa’s farm trope though. (0:37:44) Kevin: … (0:37:46) Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. (0:37:48) Kevin: You’re just a guy who gets hit by a car cause he’s looking at his phone. (0:37:52) Kevin: Don’t look at your phone when crossing the streets. (0:37:54) Kevin: It’s dark in the rain, people. (0:37:56) Kevin: It’s not recommended. (0:37:58) Kevin: And he wakes… (0:37:59) Kelly: Poor dude’s just trying to give back to his girlfriend or whatever. (0:38:00) Kevin: …yeah, his love, as he says, and… (0:38:03) Kevin: …he wakes up in a graveyard area and… (0:38:08) Kevin: There’s a talking skull that talks to you. (0:38:10) Kevin: And he says, “Hey, welcome. You’re the graveyard keeper, I guess.” (0:38:13) Kevin: Um, more or less, and sure enough, you’re put in charge of this graveyard in this little medieval village area. (0:38:23) Kevin: And you’re trying to figure out how to get back home while managing the graveyard and all the stuff people are asking you. (0:38:32) Kevin: Because, of course, people are going to ask you to do everything around here. (0:38:35) Kevin: Uh… (0:38:36) Kelly: I mean, what would a game be without everybody asking you to do all these things? (0:38:40) Kevin: Right, right. (0:38:42) Kevin: Um, so, okay, hell, you beat the game, correct? What are your overall impressions? (0:38:50) Kelly: I really liked the game. I thought it was a lot of fun. I think there’s a lot of stuff to do, (0:38:57) Kelly: like it can get a bit overwhelming, but I think, you know, it definitely involves, you know, (0:38:59) Kevin: Boy does it. (0:39:01) Kevin: Oh. Yep. (0:39:04) Kelly: looking things up online. But I will say there is an issue with how intuitive it is. (0:39:08) Kevin: Yep. (0:39:10) Kevin: Yep. (0:39:12) Kelly: I think I could have been further along in my gameplay if I understood some of the (0:39:20) Kelly: panics. A lot better. And I will say on that note, it was not always easy to find the answers on the internet. So that made it even worse. And sometimes if you did find an answer, (0:39:21) Kevin: Yep. Okay, so yeah, so. Mm-hmm. (0:39:31) Kevin: Oh yeah, the double whammy, oh yeah. (0:39:35) Kevin: Yup, it’s wild. (0:39:38) Kelly: it was from like 2018, so something got patched or didn’t work like that anymore. (0:39:46) Kelly: So, that was my biggest issue. (0:39:48) Kelly: Did it stop me from putting in, you know, (0:39:50) Kelly: 90 hours, I think, or whatever into the game? (0:39:55) Kelly: No, but there were definitely moments where I was frustrated. (0:39:59) Kelly: Or, like, again, just like, I was playing the game, I was enjoying myself, (0:40:03) Kelly: but I could have been further along than what I was. (0:40:07) Kevin: Yeah, um, okay. Mm-hmm Okay, yeah for sure they’re just Yeah, absolutely. Um, so for comparison I got the game Thursday I think today’s like Saturday. So two days ago So I’ve only played for and Mario wonder so I didn’t play as much yesterday So I played the game for an afternoon and then some um, I like the game a lot. Um, (0:40:07) Kelly: And not even in, like, a micromanagy, like, you know, whatever kind of way. (0:40:13) Kelly: Like, in, like, a… (0:40:15) Kelly: It would have made more sense. (0:40:26) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:40:37) Kevin: I think it is Almost minecrafty and how open it is and crafting and everything But I fully agree like that’s my biggest criticism there’s a lot that is not intuitive Or explained well Yep, yep, yep, I’m sure (0:40:50) Kelly: you haven’t even gotten or opened a lot of the, you know, different aspects of the game yet at this point, I’m sure, because it really expands. It expands a lot. There is a lot to do. There is so (0:41:03) Kevin: But I can imagine… I mean I see the skill tree. (0:41:07) Kevin: So… I can… I can… she’s… I can… (0:41:12) Kevin: So there’s a skill tree in this game, right? You have to get points to unlock your skills. (0:41:18) Kevin: And you can see how far it goes. And yes, I can see there’s a lot to unlock and do and whatnot. (0:41:24) Kevin: But… I think the skill tree is probably where I can direct my first criticism. (0:41:32) Kevin: Because there’s three types of points, whatever you want to call them. (0:41:37) Kevin: Red, green, and blue, and you need different amounts of each for unlocking each new skill, which lets you craft new things or do new things, whatnot. (0:41:46) Kevin: Um, the red and green work hard to get, but the blue, the blue is killing me because I hit a point where I had like one blue point overall and couldn’t figure out how to get more. (0:41:56) Kelly: You run out of them. (0:41:58) Kevin: Yeah. (0:41:59) Kelly: There’s a certain point where the game just stops you from getting more for a bit. (0:42:02) Kevin: Really? Wow. (0:42:04) Kelly: Not like stops you. (0:42:06) Kelly: There’s definitely a roadblock, I would say. (0:42:11) Kevin: - Yeah, okay. (0:42:14) Kelly: I struggled with that for so long. (0:42:17) Kelly: And then, of course, at a certain point, it’s like, oh. (0:42:20) Kelly: Now, actually, you’re out of red. (0:42:23) Kelly: Or now you’re out of green or whatever. (0:42:25) Kelly: And it’s like, oh, something that I– (0:42:26) Kelly: so I think one of them is done from manual labor, red, I think. (0:42:27) Kevin: yep yep your manufacturing and things yeah red okay oh you don’t get read from them (0:42:34) Kelly: Yeah, so at a certain point, you get helper zombies that you can assign to do things. (0:42:42) Kelly: So you’re no longer getting the red from those things that you would be getting red from. (0:42:47) Kelly: So it definitely makes you have to stop and think and watch everything. (0:42:56) Kevin: Yup, absolutely, um, it’s a very resource-manage-y heavy game and that includes your skill points or whatever you want to call them. (0:43:07) Kevin: That’s fascinating. (0:43:09) Kevin: Like I can see the blue are going to be very scarce. (0:43:11) Kelly: But I think it’s interesting because it does… (0:43:13) Kelly: Sorry, I was gonna say it just it does impact, I feel like, (0:43:18) Kelly: what you’re trying to do in that day. Because if you’re trying to get blue points… (0:43:19) Kevin: Right. Yeah, exactly. (0:43:22) Kevin: The nice thing, one of the nicest things about the game, (0:43:26) Kevin: there’s no real pressure. (0:43:28) Kevin: There’s no seasons or years or whatever. (0:43:31) Kevin: There’s a week. (0:43:32) Kevin: So like in six, seven, I don’t remember how long, how many days, (0:43:36) Kevin: but that’s the worst that you have to wait. (0:43:37) Kelly: It’s seven days Which and I liked I like I really like the fact that there was no pressure on the seasons or When you finished the game even or anything like that. I also liked the Each day is a different person You have to make sure that you’re getting the things you need to have done before that day so you can go and deal with that person (0:43:38) Kevin: Yep. Which go by quickly. (0:43:42) Kevin: Yep. (0:43:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:43:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:44:03) Kevin: Yep, he just gotta wait until… (0:44:03) Kelly: Because there’s definitely some weeks where if you miss that person you’re screwed (0:44:07) Kelly: Yup. And there is something later on in the game, you know, when things have slowed down in certain areas and you’re just like waiting for that one day where you can fast forward. (0:44:10) Kevin: Until that point. (0:44:21) Kelly: Yes, but I do actually want to say on that point, I think this is very interesting because there is no pause button. There’s no space yet. (0:44:21) Kevin: Yeah, sure that makes sense. Yeah, you can fast-forward at any point you should go to sleep and (0:44:32) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, even if you’re in your menus, time goes on. (0:44:37) Kelly: Yeah, you have to literally like go to the exit screen or whatever. Like the main menu page. (0:44:41) Kevin: Yeah Yep Yep, so if you’re looking through your notes here You know hemming and hawing at a menu thinking about where you want to spend your points that happened to me just just today When I was playing I cuz I finally got some blue points today. And so I was just like agonizing over I wanted where I wanted to spend them and before when I got out of the menu Oh, it’s evening already. Cool. The whole day’s [laughter] (0:44:43) Kelly: There’s a certain page that stops time, but the rest of them don’t. (0:44:48) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:45:09) Kelly: Yep. (0:45:11) Kelly: Yep. (0:45:12) Kevin: But they’re the kind of I mean, I don’t know if it was their intent or not But the way to combat that it’s very easy to reroll your did your save like you own there’s no autosave It just saves when you go when you wake up So most of the time you can say you’re pretty much have a safe at the start of the date or start of the day, excuse me, and You can just reload to that and have a plan or save yourself (0:45:23) Kelly: Oh, yes. (0:45:25) Kelly: Yes. (0:45:29) Kelly: I would just quit the game. (0:45:32) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:45:40) Kelly: Oh yeah, no, there was many times where I would either just, you would see like the NPC walking away from their post, and I would have to go and reset the game and then do the day over and make sure I got there early enough. (0:45:47) Kevin: Oh my gosh. (0:45:50) Kevin: Yep. (0:45:52) Kevin: Oh my gosh. (0:45:54) Kevin: That happened to me twice already when I go down and Snake is running away and like, “No, I need to talk to you, Snake.” (0:46:02) Kelly: oh god he’s so annoying he’s so annoying for the skill points though I think it’s like kind of fun like there’s some weird ones you can choose from uh-huh (0:46:05) Kevin: He is. (0:46:08) Kevin: He is. (0:46:11) Kevin: Yeah. (0:46:13) Kevin: Overall, I’m a big fan of the Skilled Trees, umm… (0:46:17) Kevin: Because you can very much pick and choose if you want to focus on certain areas and whatnot. (0:46:23) Kevin: Umm, obviously like… (0:46:25) Kevin: To get green points, that’s the farming stuff, so you do want to invest in some of that stuff. (0:46:30) Kevin: Umm, but like, early on you can really get through a lot of the wood and metalworking stuff. (0:46:37) Kevin: Umm, and again, with almost no pressure on when to do it, umm, it’s… (0:46:42) Kevin: It’s very open and you’re very free to pick and choose as you want. (0:46:46) Kevin: You know, (0:46:47) Kevin: the limitations of how many skill points you actually have notwithstanding. (0:46:52) Kevin: I think it is a clever system. (0:46:54) Kevin: And because you get to see what’s coming ahead, that helps you plan that too. (0:47:00) Kevin: I really like that. (0:47:01) Kelly: Yes, definitely. (0:47:01) Kevin: Um… (0:47:02) Kelly: There was definitely some areas in the skill tree though where I did not understand what, (0:47:09) Kelly: like if you unlocked something, (0:47:12) Kelly: I didn’t understand how to access it afterwards, (0:47:15) Kelly: which then led to me diving down a rabbit hole, (0:47:18) Kelly: trying to figure it out. (0:47:18) Kevin: Yeah, sometimes that’s a little unclear most of the time When you look at the skill tree thing it says okay, you can craft at this bench or that bench or whatever But some are not very clear. Yeah Some aren’t super clear. Yeah But I do agree (0:47:27) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, it definitely is pretty good. (0:47:30) Kelly: It’s pretty good. (0:47:34) Kelly: Can we talk about the main premise of the game, which I think is the most weird and fun part is, you know, collecting your corpses? (0:47:41) Kevin: Yeah, the it’s definitely yeah the differentiator the the the graveyard itself. Yeah, let’s talk about that (0:47:43) Kelly: Because you are, you are quite literally the graveyard keeper. So you get a (0:47:54) Kelly: Annoyed little donkey that delivers corpses to you. (0:47:56) Kevin: I’m red donkey from a leftist stable [laughter] (0:47:57) Kelly: And oh my god, there was so many times where I would hear that bell and just be so far away from home. (0:48:06) Kelly: And just go running because it’s like the second you hear that bell that corpse starts, you know, deteriorating. (0:48:12) Kevin: Yep Yeah, that’s that’s an interesting aspect that the forps is deteriorate and it affects a lot of things And yeah, they’re kind of deliver just at random times. It feels like I didn’t detect any pattern Umm… (0:48:22) Kelly: Yeah. (0:48:23) Kelly: Yes. (0:48:27) Kelly: No, they can definitely be whenever. (0:48:31) Kelly: And they can pile up too. (0:48:34) Kevin: Oh my gosh, I don’t think I’ve had that happen yet, but I could see that happening. (0:48:35) Kelly: Yeah, no, they can definitely pile up. (0:48:43) Kelly: I mean, this game goes in depth. (0:48:48) Kelly: I have freezers for bodies. (0:48:53) Kelly: So, you know, it’s like you are literally treating it like a morgue, like… (0:48:57) Kelly: But I think one of the most fun parts is removing the organs, (0:49:03) Kelly: but also the most hard to understand initially. (0:49:06) Kevin: Right, so yeah, let’s talk about that because as very early on you’re introduced that you have options to do the corpse One you can bury them in your graveyard. It has a prettiness rating you how you decorate it Well, you bury them and whatnot You can even just throw it in the river or cremate them or You can take them into your morgan Do a little bisection, you know see what you can poke around and find in there pull out a skull some blood What? (0:49:36) Kevin: A bit of flesh. (0:49:38) Kevin: It’s fascinating that they gave you this option. (0:49:43) Kevin: There’s… (0:49:44) Kevin: I haven’t gotten too in-depth with the body parts. (0:49:47) Kelly: So, I’ll explain it. It’s a lot. (0:49:51) Kelly: Basically, your corpse, so when you bury a corpse, you want it to be as high rated as possible because it impacts your cemeteries overall like beauty rating, (0:50:05) Kelly: which is a whole different aspect. (0:50:07) Kelly: And that’s a big part of the game because it kind of roadblocks you if you don’t keep up with it. (0:50:11) Kelly: But so you want to make sure you’re removing. (0:50:14) Kelly: If you remove certain organs, it makes your corpses… (0:50:17) Kelly: …that’s how you can remove them. (0:50:19) Kelly: If you remove other organs, it decreases it, and they don’t really tell you at first. (0:50:23) Kelly: You have to unlock skills on the skill tree… (0:50:25) Kelly: …that tell you. (0:50:25) Kevin: Yeah, I mean they tell you like there’s bad organs, but you don’t you can’t tell which ones until you go get that later (0:50:29) Kelly: Yes. Yes. (0:50:34) Kelly: And so you can remove organs, and you can also try to put the organ back. (0:50:38) K

Kev and Spencer talk about Paleo Pines Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:21: What Have We Been Up To 00:14:37: News 00:37:08: Paleo Pines 01:45:09: Outro Links Garden Buddies Release Garden Buddies Release Trailer Ikonei Island Friends Pass Farming Simulator 22 Carrots Preview Garden Galaxy Autumn Update Mineko’s Night Market Patches Paleo Pines Patches Animal Crossing Lego Paleo Pines Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:31) Kevin: Welcome farmers to the harvest season! (0:00:48) Spencer: Spared no expense. (0:00:49) Kevin: Hello. See what I wanted… I would have preferred the kazoo version. Have you heard that one? The kazoo version of Jurassic Park? Oh, I’ll have to send you a (0:00:50) Spencer: I have not heard that version. (0:01:00) Spencer: Aha. (0:01:01) Kevin: link. It’s an amazing one. I’ll do that right now. But in the meanwhile, hello listeners, farmers. I’m your host, Kevin, and with me today is Spencer! (0:01:14) Spencer: Yes, they thought they could get rid of me after the last episode I was on, but I’m back, (0:01:21) Spencer: so deal with it. (0:01:22) Kevin: And why? Because dinosaurs, of course, um, we are here to talk about, uh, (0:01:32) Kevin: Heliopines and Spencer, our resident dinosaur lover, alongside me. (0:01:40) Kevin: Um, I’m also a big fan. Um, we’re, uh, we were both very excited for this one. (0:01:46) Spencer: Yeah, I remember seeing it and I was like, “Oh man, I gotta wedge my way, force my way in with Al this time again.” (0:01:50) Kevin: Yeah. (0:01:53) Kevin: Yup, yup. (0:01:55) Kevin: But before that, um, you know–oh, see, I sent you the kazoo cover of Jurassic Park. (0:02:03) Kevin: Um, but before we get into paleopines, as usual, we’re gonna cover some news and other stuff. (0:02:11) Kevin: As usual, you can find the show notes and the transcript on the website, as always. (0:02:20) Kevin: Alright, but what we- (0:02:23) Spencer: Ah, games I’ve been playing. Well, I was playing Tears of the Kingdom for a while, and then, honestly, I’ve been playing a couple mobile games, so I started playing Monster Hunter now. (0:02:35) Spencer: Are you playing that? (0:02:36) Kevin: Oh, I am not okay first off for have you played Monster Hunter not mobile version Okay Uh-huh, right Okay Okay, but you hunted some things you have familiarity, okay, okay (0:02:37) Spencer: Oh, yeah. (0:02:45) Spencer: So I have Rise, and I also have Worlds, I think it is, for PS4. (0:02:51) Spencer: I just barely scratched the surface of both of them. (0:02:55) Spencer: I think it got a little bit farther in Rise than I did in Worlds. (0:02:59) Spencer: Oh yeah, I definitely hunted some things. (0:03:05) Spencer: See, the issue with me in those kind of games is like… (0:03:06) Kevin: Uh huh. (0:03:07) Spencer: The feedback loop for that kind of stuff is actually really… (0:03:12) Spencer: I like really enjoy it, but I get stuck on like (0:03:15) Spencer: the first level, because I’m like, “Oh cool, I hunted this monster. Let me like, hunt it again. Let me hunt it again.” (0:03:21) Kevin: Uh-huh, right. (0:03:21) Spencer: I just keep on hunting the same thing over and over again, and I never end up proceeding to the next level or the next area or wherever. (0:03:23) Kevin: I mean, that’s fine. You’ve got to do that at app points. (0:03:29) Spencer: Yeah, that’s true. So I am familiar with the series a little bit, but yeah, it’s been playing a lot of now. (0:03:41) Spencer: Well, I was playing a lot of now. (0:03:42) Kevin: Oh, okay, so tell me about now, because I’m fascinated how this works, but this is by Niantic, the Pokemon Go people. (0:03:43) Spencer: kind of… (0:03:49) Spencer: Yeah, so… (0:03:53) Spencer: So basically, like, while you’re walking around, you know, there’ll just be like, monsters kind of out where you are. (0:04:00) Spencer: Um, god, I think someone pointed out… (0:04:02) Spencer: It’s almost like the movie, in that it’s our world, but the monsters have now kind of like, invaded our world. (0:04:10) Spencer: Um, so you’re just walking around, there’ll be like, lesser monsters, you know, (0:04:15) Spencer: and like, ones that would actually be like, a hunt in the real game. (0:04:18) Spencer: And, you just fight ’em, you’re kind of timed, similarly to how you would do like a, say like a raid in Pokemon Go. (0:04:26) Spencer: Um, a lot more… (0:04:28) Spencer: Intensive than Pokemon Go, if you’ll believe that. (0:04:32) Spencer: You’re still basically clicking. (0:04:34) Spencer: But you can like… (0:04:35) Kevin: Okay, sure I right you’re you’re on mobile there’s only so much you can do right uh-huh (0:04:36) Spencer: Yeah, you can like, swipe to dodge. (0:04:40) Spencer: Yeah, you can swipe to dodge, you can get perfect, like, you know, perfect dodges and stuff. (0:04:45) Spencer: Um, and then there are some combinations. (0:04:48) Spencer: ‘Cause I’m using, um, what is it, Greatsword? (0:04:51) Spencer: And you can like, kind of do this thing where you like, if you start swinging and then you swipe, you’ll do kind of that shoulder, you know, shoulder charge attack. (0:05:03) Kevin: - Yeah, yeah, right. (0:05:03) Spencer: So there are definitely like, combos and stuff that you can figure out. (0:05:06) Spencer: It would benefit from a like, tutorial, you know, like in a fighting game, you have your little like, tutorial, you know, practice area. (0:05:15) Kevin: - Right. (0:05:15) Spencer: Or something like that, ‘cause you can like, then you could figure out, yeah, training room. (0:05:16) Kevin: - Oh, okay, yeah, training room, yeah. (0:05:20) Spencer: Um, but yeah, so you walk around, you fight monsters, you collect, uh, collect different resources, your little, um… (0:05:29) Spencer: What are the little cats called? (0:05:32) Kevin: Uh, the Palicos? (0:05:33) Spencer: Palakos, yeah, you have one, so it runs around and collects resources for you. (0:05:34) Kevin: Right, right. (0:05:38) Spencer: Um, it’ll also mark monsters too, so you can like, come back. (0:05:41) Spencer: back. Yeah, it’s pretty, my understanding is it’s a little bit more leaning. (0:05:45) Spencer: towards the world’s aesthetic. So the different monsters from there and stuff. (0:05:48) Kevin: Yeah, okay, sure. (0:05:50) Spencer: It’s fun. You kind of plateau a little bit if you aren’t able to go out and get resources. I’ve needed to upgrade like my weapons for a while now but I just simply can’t find find the resources I need. So it is what it is. But yeah, it’s been fun. (0:06:00) Kevin: Ahh. (0:06:02) Kevin: Okay. (0:06:04) Kevin: Have you tried any other weapons? (0:06:09) Spencer: Well, in Rise and in World I was using Swishax, which is not in this. (0:06:14) Kevin: Right what what (0:06:15) Spencer: Unfortunately. Yeah, they left it out. So I had to go with the next best thing. (0:06:22) Spencer: They do have, you know, your like kind of daily challenges that give you experience for your rank and some of the challenges will ask of you to do things with other weapons. So they do try to like kind of get you to branch out. It’ll be like, “Oh, (0:06:40) Spencer: kill three monsters with like a hammer or something like that.” So you will inevitably have at least one of each weapon somewhat, you know, upgraded and stuff so that way those little challenges won’t be such a pain. (0:06:40) Kevin: Okay. Okay. (0:06:52) Kevin: Uh-huh okay okay I I asked because so for people who aren’t familiar with monster hunter as the name implies right you’re just out hunting monsters but there’s different types of weapons and they all play significantly differently so I wonder like is that the same here does a bow hunt player feel different (0:07:20) Spencer: They definitely do. The, you know, like the sword and shield is a lot faster. You start off with that too. (0:07:27) Spencer: So you kind of like, I think you don’t even get to choose a different weapon until you reach rank 10. (0:07:33) Spencer: Which can go by pretty quickly depending on like the area you are and you know how close you are. (0:07:40) Spencer: Much like Pokemon Go, you know, it’s a lot of it’s dependent on how close you are to like stops and other points of interest, right? (0:07:46) Spencer: So, you know, if you’re close to things like that… (0:07:50) Spencer: …you’re ranking probably go up pretty quickly within the first day. (0:07:54) Spencer: And you can get to the other weapons. (0:07:56) Spencer: But yeah, there is definitely a different playstyle to each one. (0:08:00) Spencer: You know, for as much as it is just tapping and swiping. (0:08:04) Kevin: Okay, all right, that’s interesting, but the fact that they don’t have the Switch X weapon I’ve played for Decade Plus, yeah, I know that game goes in the trash. (0:08:18) Spencer: Yeah, it was kind of a bummer when I saw that, I was like, “Oh man!” (0:08:24) Kevin: Alright, what else have you been up to? (0:08:25) Spencer: Umm, that and, oh god, this is so embarrassing for me to admit, but have you ever seen the ads for uh, that mobile game, Raid? (0:08:35) Kevin: Rage Battle Legends! (0:08:37) Spencer: Shadow Legends, yeah! (0:08:38) Kevin: Did you get your 300 free heroes? (0:08:39) Spencer: I was just, I was like, I… (0:08:43) Spencer: I did not, I just downloaded it, I was like, “What is this game about?” I keep seeing (0:08:48) Spencer: it, let me just try it, you know, if, for those of you who don’t know me, I download too many mobile games, and then my phone is just like full of them, and I don’t play them, (0:08:59) Spencer: and it’s just, it’s a bad habit that I need to stop and break, but I was like, “Whatever, (0:09:04) Spencer: they have money to hire all these famous actors to promote their game, so maybe it’s good.” (0:09:11) Spencer: And it’s not bad, I’ll be honest, you know what, it’s not bad, it is definitely a mobile game. It has everything you’d expect from a mobile game. It has… (0:09:18) Spencer: you know, timed items, rechargeable energy, you know, all the little… that bombards you with buying packs and stuff, but you know, whatever. (0:09:30) Spencer: I’m not into PvP too much, so I’m not concerned about having the best champions right away and stuff, but you know, it’s a mobile game. (0:09:40) Spencer: I don’t know what else there is to say about it. You wait for things. (0:09:43) Kevin: Okay, like okay, what do the it’s a is it a it’s it a gotcha game? I’m assuming it’s a gotcha game right to get your (0:09:52) Spencer: yeah so there are there are these like hero crystals or something I’ve only been playing it for not too long so pardon me for any any hardcore raid players out there I just called the whatever you know these crystals and you like summon heroes and stuff and you know nine times out of ten you’re summoning one that’s gonna be used for fodder for something else but every once in a while you’ll summon some epic hero or whatever so yeah it’s a gachi game (0:10:01) Kevin: Okay [laughter] (0:10:20) Kevin: Okay, are there any cool designs? (0:10:23) Spencer: » They’re all pretty cool. (0:10:25) Spencer: If you are into like, you know, very like high fantasy and dark fantasy kind of stuff. (0:10:30) Spencer: They have some good stuff, you know, like Lord of the Rings or like, (0:10:34) Spencer: I don’t know what else, The Witcher. (0:10:37) Spencer: If you’re into that kind of stuff, then you’ll probably be drawn to the aesthetic. (0:10:39) Kevin: Okay, hi, Fanny. (0:10:41) Spencer: Yeah, there are, it is a little odd, some of the designs, (0:10:46) Spencer: cuz like they lean into like fantasy of multiple cultures. (0:10:52) Spencer: There’s like a whole subset of like, you know, (0:10:55) Spencer: clearly Asian inspired fantasy people and creatures. (0:10:58) Kevin: Oh, door. Okay. (0:11:00) Spencer: Which is kind of interesting to see with more European style, (0:11:05) Spencer: more medieval style fantasy. (0:11:08) Spencer: You know, you’ll have your like, knights of the round table style knight fighting alongside like a ninja, but I mean, (0:11:17) Spencer: I can see why they have enough money to make ads like that, so it’s very solid. (0:11:22) Kevin: Yeah? (0:11:23) Spencer: I will say that, yeah. (0:11:23) Kevin: And hey, now that it’s been brought on the podcast, I’m sure they’ll approach us for a sponsorship now. (0:11:28) Spencer: Hopefully, yeah, you’re welcome. (0:11:29) Kevin: There you go, Al. (0:11:31) Kevin: I can’t wait for Al to read how much he loves rage at relations. (0:11:37) Kevin: Um… (0:11:40) Kevin: Okay. (0:11:41) Kevin: Oh, hey- (0:11:41) Spencer: What have you been playing? (0:11:43) Kevin: Ugh… (0:11:45) Kevin: Mostly- (0:11:46) Kevin: Mostly paleopines, I don’t lie. (0:11:48) Kevin: Um… (0:11:49) Kevin: This week’s been a lot of paleopines. (0:11:53) Kevin: But, uh, before that, I’m going to plug the other show, Rainbow Road Radio, (0:12:01) Kevin: hosted by my- our mutual friend Alex, and I happen to be on it. (0:12:07) Kevin: We covered Luigi’s Mansion last week, we are back from our break. (0:12:12) Kevin: And, uh, to kick off Spooktober- (0:12:15) Kevin: Well, you know, Halloween, whatever. (0:12:18) Kevin: Uh, we played Luigi’s Mansion. (0:12:20) Kevin: Um, the original for the GameCube. (0:12:20) Spencer: Oh, okay, okay, I was going to ask, didn’t they re-release it for DS, correct, or 3DS? (0:12:22) Kevin: Uh, yeah. (0:12:24) Kevin: Yes. (0:12:27) Kevin: Actually, that’s interesting because Alex played it on the DS. (0:12:31) Kevin: He did the remake, I did the original version. (0:12:34) Kevin: Um, and it’s interesting to hear those comparisons, but I will say, overall, like, that’s still a really good game. (0:12:43) Kevin: I never ha- I hadn’t played it before, actually. (0:12:45) Kevin: This is my first time playing the original. (0:12:45) Spencer: Oh wow, really? (0:12:46) Kevin: Yeah, um, so no nostalgia rose-colored glasses or whatever. (0:12:52) Spencer: I think that was the first game I got for my GameCube. That and Wave Race, yeah. (0:12:52) Kevin: But I enjoyed it. (0:12:53) Kevin: Yeah. (0:12:57) Kevin: Ooh, waveries, that’s a good one. (0:12:58) Spencer: Yeah. (0:13:00) Kevin: Um, uh, yeah, it was a launch game, I think, for the GameCube, so that makes sense. (0:13:05) Kevin: Um, I was surprised- one thing I was surprised by, because I had seen- I played the second one, Dark Moon, (0:13:14) Kevin: and I watched my brother play Luigi’s Mansion 3. (0:13:18) Kevin: So what I didn’t expect is Luigi’s Mansion 1, boy that they… (0:13:22) Kevin: Saw Resident Evil and said “What if we do Resident Evil with the Luigi?” (0:13:27) Kevin: Um, because boy that feels like a Resident Evil game, both the tank controls and the aesthetic, um, but overall very fun. (0:13:36) Kevin: Uh, so yeah, uh, check that episode out if you want more details on that, um, (0:13:36) Spencer: Mm-hmm. (0:13:44) Kevin: But yeah, aside from that, uh, a lot of the usual stuff, uh, (0:13:50) Kevin: a holly right it’s october now so every (0:13:52) Kevin: thing’s getting spooky and whatnot masters has yeah masters has Pokemon masters has spooky costumes rock sand looks great in her witch outfit Pokemon unite is getting mimic you in a week or two and Marvel snaps getting all sort of spooky cards for this season and I love the dumb monsters that they have in Marvel so I’m really happy uh but yeah that’s what I’ve been up (0:13:55) Spencer: Yeah, all the spooky updates. (0:14:22) Kevin: to like I said though a lot of paleopines I don’t think I’ve played anything else on my switch this week of the paleopines right right ok and we’ll get into wide later but before that let’s talk about the news alright first up let’s see here garden buddies. This is… (0:14:31) Spencer: Yeah, that’s been consuming my time too, as far as actual console games go, it’s just (0:14:52) Kevin: This is our previously announced game, but regardless, we have a trailer for it. (0:14:59) Kevin: Let me actually take a look at it. We have it announced for October 20th. (0:15:05) Kevin: Oh boy, that’s quite an aesthetic. I don’t remember this game at all, but these are little (0:15:16) Kevin: crops and vegetables with faces… and a bat… uh… (0:15:22) Kevin: It’s really funny. (0:15:23) Spencer: Now I watched this trailer and the voices… Man, I don’t know if they’re gonna get a cease and desist from Rare, but boy oh boy do they sound like your typical Banjo-Kazooie, uh… You know, little babbles (0:15:37) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, they do they do or for people who haven’t played rare on Animal Crossing pretty close to that, too Yeah, so you don’t remember this what is this game exactly? (0:15:45) Spencer: Yeah, yeah. (0:15:53) Kevin: yeah, because I don’t remember the trailer here, but it is releasing the 20th of October I said which oh my gosh actually that’s gonna be like almost (0:16:07) Kevin: These people are listening to this podcast. It’ll be out and it will be on Steam and on switch So you can look forward to that. Let me double check (0:16:19) Spencer: Yeah, I was curious too, because I mean, the trailer that I got here was just the release date and as far as I can tell, you’re the vegetables themselves? (0:16:26) Kevin: Yeah Yep, yeah, you are it’s a unique blend of cozy gardening simulator and mental self-care that’s Okay, that’s a lot of buzzwords The art. I don’t know how I feel about the art. I kind of like it. I kind of hate it (0:16:55) Kevin: The eyes are very (0:16:56) Kevin: Very very like Toa’i baby eyes Umm But there’s a little mushroom guy riding a frog So that looks cool Uhh (0:17:15) Kevin: heartwarming story, players accompanied by Mutzi will explore the magical world creating and building their plant sanctuary. The relaxing storyline will be filled with uplifting narration as well as unexpected twists and turns. They will make lots of friends with animals and plant creatures they encounter. (0:17:37) Kevin: So yeah, okay, it sounds like a lot, but they’re really emphasizing the de-stress and cozy feeling and whatnot, uh… (0:17:45) Kevin: I’m interested to see how this looks like. (0:17:48) Kevin: It’s definitely not your average farming game, it doesn’t look like. (0:17:54) Kevin: Just seeing, uh… (0:17:56) Kevin: From the perspective of being these little crops and things. (0:17:59) Spencer: it gives me kind of like a not to bring a prayer again but like almost like a view of a pinata vibe like you’re caring for these vegetables as like creatures (0:18:00) Kevin: Um, but, whoop. Yeah, go ahead. (0:18:03) Kevin: Yep. Yeah, it seems like that. (0:18:15) Kevin: I didn’t play Viva Pinata, and I heard it was the greatest thing on Earth, and I missed out on it. (0:18:19) Spencer: I only played it a little bit. I just… yeah. (0:18:20) Kevin: Okay. Okay, well… (0:18:24) Kevin: Regardless, people can find out more! (0:18:28) Kevin: Uh, again, October 20th. Very, very soon. (0:18:31) Kevin: Especially for the people who are listening to this. (0:18:34) Kevin: Okay, next up, we have… (0:18:38) Kevin: Ikone Island News. (0:18:41) Kevin: We have the Friend Pass release. (0:18:45) Kevin: It is out now as of recording. (0:18:47) Kevin: And so, you can… (0:18:50) Kevin: Ah! Friends… I thought it was like a battle pass. No. (0:18:54) Kevin: It is multiplayer co-op with three of your friends. You can do it online. (0:19:00) Kevin: And… Oh, what? That’s so cool! (0:19:04) Kevin: If one… only one person has the full version, everyone can play indefinitely. (0:19:10) Kevin: Um, there’s like a demo that you can find out about. (0:19:15) Kevin: Play co-op for a few hours. (0:19:17) Kevin: Uh, two hours of play, it looks like. (0:19:19) Kevin: But, uh, if you have the whole game, everyone can just play. (0:19:22) Kevin: And you don’t have to buy it or four copies to have four people playing. (0:19:28) Kevin: Uh, that is very cool. (0:19:31) Spencer: Yeah, that’s always nice when they do some kind of like, as long as just one person owns something, you know, then everyone has access to it, at least via online, you know, like connecting to each other for multiplayer or something like that. (0:19:47) Kevin: Yeah, that is cool. There is a large list of patch notes. (0:19:55) Kevin: I invite people to look at the link because they are pretty in-depth with their patch notes. (0:20:02) Kevin: But the big new other big news is that this will be launching the full 1.0 version on November 9th of this year, (0:20:14) Spencer: All right around the corner. (0:20:14) Kevin: which will only be two or three. Yeah, two or three. (0:20:17) Kevin: That’s really impressive. Wow. What a feel-good announcement. (0:20:23) Kevin: Everyone can just play together and you not having to buy the game for everyone. (0:20:31) Kevin: That’s great. And so to remind people, IKONOI ISLAND. Let me see, I don’t remember. (0:20:38) Kevin: I talk so many games, I forget which ones are which. This one is… Why is there a shark man in this? (0:20:48) Kevin: Okay, so yeah, no, it’s very Minecraft-y. Gather resources, craft tools, build your base and whatnot. (0:20:59) Kevin: So basically very Minecraft survival type game on an island. The art is cute and there’s like a shark man. (0:21:06) Kevin: That seems cool. That’s exciting though. You know, Minecraft is… or the genre, whatever you want to call it, is great for multiplayer. (0:21:16) Kevin: So this is this. (0:21:17) Kevin: It really is exciting. (0:21:18) Kevin: And yeah, November 9th, that launches on Xbox, Steam, Epic Games, and PlayStation. (0:21:26) Kevin: Yeah, alright, there you go. (0:21:30) Kevin: Good job, Ikune Island. (0:21:32) Kevin: That actually might get me to play with multiple people. (0:21:36) Kevin: Uh, that’s so cool. (0:21:39) Kevin: Next up, we have news on… (0:21:44) Kevin: Oh, do the King of Bar Mee- (0:21:47) Kevin: simulators farming simulator 22 is that a weight? (0:21:51) Kevin: Yeah, okay 22. I thought they could wind up with the years, but I guess not I’m wrong, okay Okay, so it is An expansion okay. This is an expansion that will launch on November 14th They’re adding carrots. Why were carrots not available before? (0:22:10) Spencer: That, yeah, very odd. I had to reread that to make sure that was correct, because carrots are like the most basic crop, right? In just things, in general. You got carrots, you got like potatoes, and like wheat. (0:22:17) Kevin: Uh, in life? I can’t, like, yep, yeah, yeah, that’s really surprising, um, and it’s surprising because, like, looking, all the detail they put into these other machines they’re releasing and stuff like that, um, it’s okay, but, uh… (0:22:47) Kevin: There you go, carrots, um, they’re adding a few other things, what is it, parsnips and a few other crops, but, uh, yeah, I’m curious, yeah, more machines, crops, uh, oh, and there’s, (0:22:57) Spencer: And some more machines too. (0:23:04) Kevin: yeah, there’s new machines that specifically help with these crops, like carrots, oh my gosh, like, oh, this, this is intense, like, they have real intense machine names and stuff like that. (0:23:17) Kevin: But, uh, oh, redbeat, yep, there it is. (0:23:21) Kevin: Uh, anyways, that again is November 22nd. (0:23:24) Kevin: That is the premium expansion, uh, for farming simulator. (0:23:29) Kevin: 20-20, er, just 22. (0:23:32) Kevin: Okay, next up, ah, now this is a game I do know. (0:23:35) Kevin: We have Garden Galaxy, uh, for people unfamiliar. (0:23:40) Kevin: We did an episode on it. (0:23:41) Kevin: It is, uh, you’re building a little garden, (0:23:48) Kevin: everything’s kind of randomly generated, the items you get. (0:23:52) Kevin: Um, so it’s an interesting loop of trying to expand your item and trying to get your garden and get the items you want. (0:23:59) Kevin: Um, but, uh, they’re getting an update. (0:24:02) Kevin: I am pleased to see this game, uh, continue getting support because it is a fun game. (0:24:06) Kevin: I need to go back to it probably now because on October 16th, (0:24:10) Kevin: which means when people are listening to this, it will already be out, (0:24:14) Kevin: There is getting an update with all of the other videos. (0:24:17) Kevin: Autumn themed items, we got pumpkins, jack-o’-lanterns, (0:24:22) Kevin: your fall leaves, and whatnot. (0:24:25) Kevin: So yeah, I think that’s the first set of seasonal items they’ve done like that before. (0:24:32) Kevin: Oh, no, that’s not true, they did a summer update. (0:24:34) Kevin: Either way, that actually might get me back in because I’ve been meaning to check it out. (0:24:42) Kevin: I’m sure they’ve done a lot of patches. (0:24:44) Kevin: the 10 months it’s been out. (0:24:45) Spencer: So I’m looking at this. Are you on like an island or something or are you what exactly it’s like you said Just randomly generated (0:24:50) Kevin: So, you… yeah, so it starts off… you’re basically on a floating island or set… (0:25:01) Kevin: it’s a tile-based grid-type game, right? (0:25:05) Kevin: And so it’s just floating out in space. (0:25:08) Kevin: It’s basically like an island. (0:25:10) Spencer: Okay, hence galaxy. (0:25:11) Kevin: And you’re… yeah, yeah, that’s the name, right? (0:25:14) Kevin: Yeah, Garden Galaxy. (0:25:15) Kevin: And you’re just… you’re generating items to decorate your garden, but that includes… (0:25:20) Kevin: like, new piles of terrain and land to expand your area. (0:25:27) Kevin: So yeah, it is… it’s a fascinating little game because it’s… at least when I first played it, (0:25:28) Spencer: Ah, okay. (0:25:36) Kevin: it requires some patience. (0:25:39) Kevin: I remember calling it the most frustrating, cozy, or relaxing game I’ve ever played, (0:25:45) Kevin: because the loop of how things were generated was… (0:25:49) Kevin: » Thank you. (0:25:50) Kevin: » I recommend people do check it out because it’s only like 10 bucks and it is relaxing. At least when it wasn’t frustrating. (0:26:10) Kevin: Again, that is October 16th for the autumn update. Go get your spooky garden on and whatnot. Uh, oh god, oh no. (0:26:20) Kevin: No, this next news. I don’t like it. No, that’s why I don’t like it. Go ahead. (0:26:24) Spencer: Oh, I saw it. I’m excited. You want me to announce it? (0:26:31) Spencer: Alright, well, our next thing, Animal Crossing LEGO sets. (0:26:38) Spencer: This is an audio podcast, but I’m rubbing my hands together. (0:26:41) Kevin: Can hear it I can oh we have Okay, you’re already a Lego man, okay See that’s that’s a thing right cuz I’ve managed to not dive into Lego Like it’s it’s always been there. It’s tempted me But this is the one that’s probably gonna break me I’m I’m gonna be in (0:26:43) Spencer: If there’s one thing I spend more money on than video games, it is LEGO sets. (0:26:51) Spencer: Oh yeah, I’m looking at the Rivendell set right now. (0:27:11) Kevin: So to get more specific, there’s been rumors and leaks of this and whatnot. (0:27:15) Kevin: But we have official announcements that it will be releasing on March 2024. (0:27:21) Kevin: We have a handful of sets. (0:27:27) Kevin: They are Bunny’s Outdoor Activities, Cap’n’s Island Boat Tour, (0:27:31) Kevin: Nook’s Cranny and Rosie’s House, Isabelle’s House Visit, and Julian’s Birthday Party. (0:27:36) Spencer: So, my understanding is that these sets are also modular, this is what I’ve heard through the grapevine, and they are meant to be able to essentially create your own island as if you were actually making an island in Animal Crossing. (0:27:42) Kevin: Yes. That is correct. (0:27:50) Kevin: Yes, that is correct. They come, all the sets come on this flat base or whatever and yeah, (0:27:58) Kevin: you’ll just be able to swap the positions or interlock them. You know, LEGO your way through it and whatnot. (0:28:04) Kevin: Yeah, yeah. (0:28:04) Spencer: Yeah, I mean, they’re Legos, so, like, you know. (0:28:07) Spencer: Yes. (0:28:08) Spencer: But, uh… (0:28:10) Spencer: Which makes me feel like we can expect to see more than just what’s announced in the future. (0:28:15) Kevin: Yes, so one of the kickers the there’s minifigs right of course lego that’s one of the half the fun or whatever From what I saw they’re nothing too crazy. They all look pretty standard minifigs That look like Animal Crossing characters Okay, go ahead go ahead (0:28:26) Spencer: Yeah, now I have a gripe with these minifigs, I’m sorry, but the proportions look a little off in my opinion. (0:28:41) Spencer: When you’re playing Animal Crossing, the characters kind of look very like chibi-like and they’re very small, I guess. (0:28:47) Spencer: I mean, I guess they’re not small because your character also looks like it’s half the the size of a tree, but at the same time, everything is– (0:28:50) Kevin: Yeah. (0:28:56) Spencer: everything’s pretty trunk, you know, it’s just like you kind of have a big head, a little body, (0:29:01) Spencer: and they decided to make these regular minifigs size, so now this big head is on this kind of like elongated minifig body, and I don’t know, I think they should have gone with the shorter legs personally, or something, I just think they could have made it like half-sized minifigs. (0:29:11) Kevin: Yeah Okay I guess Yeah Well, I mean yeah, this is interesting because this is the merging of two very powerful vocal fan bases, right? (0:29:22) Spencer: I realized that would be an unpopular opinion. (0:29:39) Kevin: I will say though like I played since the original Animal Crossing right and they were even more chibi like back then they got a growth spurt (0:29:47) Spencer: Oh, for sure. (0:29:54) Kevin: So, I don’t know, maybe I’m just used to it because of that, but anyways, as for the sets, (0:30:01) Kevin: we have pricings for all of them. (0:30:05) Kevin: The most expensive one is Nook’s Cranny and the Rosy House, which is 75 bucks, which is forgiving for like, no sets, let’s say. (0:30:13) Spencer: Yeah, the LEGO sets are expensive now. (0:30:16) Spencer: So, 75 bucks for… (0:30:17) Kevin: Yeah. (0:30:19) Spencer: I mean you’re essentially getting two houses, right? (0:30:20) Kevin: Yes. More or less. (0:30:21) Spencer: Every other set is kind of more of one house, so… (0:30:24) Kevin: Yes. It’s still going to look small and I’m going to feel it’s way overpriced, but am I still going to get it? Probably. (0:30:32) Kevin: I want nookscranny. Oh, it’s not actually nookscranny. It’s one of the updated versions. It’s not the little shack. (0:30:37) Spencer: Yeah, it’s not the little shack, wow. (0:30:39) Kevin: Oh, that’s disappointing. Oh, well. (0:30:45) Kevin: But yeah, I’m really scared though, like, for myself because I’m worried. (0:30:54) Kevin: That this will be the gateway and I’m going to be buying my nookcranny set and I’m like, oh, you know what? There’s that Lego Green Hill Zone with Sonic. (0:31:03) Kevin: I could just put it right next to him, you know? Sonic could visit the cranny if I wanted to. (0:31:10) Spencer: You just, you know though, like in a year from now, they’re gonna have some, I’m gonna say almost $200 museum set, and it’s gonna have blathers, and it’s gonna have different sections of the museum, and little animals that you can put in there, little octopus, (0:31:23) Kevin: No! (0:31:29) Spencer: a little fish, a little frog, you know it’s in the pipeline. (0:31:33) Kevin: Why did you- I didn’t think about that. Why did you jinx me like this? (0:31:37) Kevin: No! That’s gonna be the best one! (0:31:40) Kevin: No! (0:31:41) Kevin: We don’t have Town Hall either. That one’s gonna be big. (0:31:41) Spencer: They go, “If it’s not in the pipeline, come hire me.” (0:31:44) Spencer: Ugh, yeah, town hall. (0:31:47) Kevin: Oh, it’s gonna hurt me. Okay. (0:31:50) Kevin: But, this is just the tip of the iceberg, because we’re talking Animal Crossing, right? (0:31:55) Kevin: There is very much room for the Animal Crossing blind bag minifigs or whatever. (0:32:01) Kevin: Um, or even furniture set. (0:32:03) Kevin: Animal Crossing has a lot of items, so I could easily dip into that. (0:32:07) Spencer: Yeah, everything in Animal Crossing could be a blind bag for this set. (0:32:08) Kevin: Right? And that terrorized me? (0:32:12) Spencer: It is a little, yeah. (0:32:15) Kevin: Oh, we don’t have a K.K. (0:32:39) Kevin: So yeah, stay tuned to see my demise as I finally dive into the LEGO world, and it all ends for me. (0:32:48) Kevin: All right, so again, that is 2024, still a few months before the end of that. (0:32:55) Kevin: Okay, you know what, I have a question for you. You say you’re into LEGO, (0:32:57) Kevin: I don’t know how hardcore you are, but do LEGOs run out of stock easily? (0:33:04) Spencer: Hear me sigh as I say that, um, trying to think. (0:33:11) Spencer: So in the past I used to just, you know, back, back in the day, you know, when they were still doing kind of just their, their own sets, which they still do. (0:33:20) Spencer: I know people complain that they have like too many licensed sets now, but they have plenty of unlicensed or, you know, only Lego sets. (0:33:29) Spencer: Um, you know, I kind of just got what was there. (0:33:32) Spencer: I was never particularly looking for any kind of (0:33:34) Spencer: set. There was this Mars like Mars set that they had that I really enjoyed that I did try to get like a couple of different sets from but nothing like you know going out of my way and stuff with the advent of the internet though and being able to look all this stuff up like I am now as an adult. There are definitely sets that do you know do just disappear because they’ve sold out of them or they just stop making them. I can’t imagine them doing this with the (0:33:46) Kevin: Okay. (0:33:48) Kevin: Yeah. (0:34:04) Spencer: Animal Crossing set. You know I got to imagine that this is something that they’re planning to continue to release you know new sets for and keep updating with the old sets. For instance the Mario sets I think you can still get a lot of those you know at least if you look you might have to look a little bit harder but they’re generally like available. The set that I totally missed out on and just kick myself every time I think about it is they had a Voltron set and it came with all the different all different parts and they all like you know they all transformed into Voltron together and stuff. Yes it was and I saw that and I was like one day I’ll get it and then I just waited too long and that’s what happens but. (0:34:15) Kevin: Okay. (0:34:16) Kevin: Okay. (0:34:20) Kevin: Sure. (0:34:40) Kevin: You could, in fact, form the head. (0:34:52) Kevin: Oh, I know that feeling um well, i’m just worried because Like I said, I don’t know how the inventory issues are dealt with um in lego, but They’re drawing in the animal crossing nintendo crowd, right? We look what happened with van gogh Oh, come on Look what happened with Remember when julian was a commodity or not julian. Whatever his name was the Pat with the heterochromia (0:35:21) Spencer: Oh, yeah, yeah. (0:35:23) Kevin: And when new horizons drop If anyone could make this is the inventory problem, it would be these fans. Um, but oh boy, here we go uh but maybe the well the price isn’t even the worst for all of them, but uh We’ll see. Um I just want them to bring back by onical. That’s the only lego thing I ever really got those were cool little robot dudes (0:35:48) Spencer: Hmm, interesting. I was somewhat into Bionicle. I had quite a few, but not as much as the regular sets. (0:35:58) Kevin: All right, um, two other pieces of news album and put them on here, (0:36:04) Kevin: but I do want to mention them. (0:36:06) Kevin: I hope I, I listened to the last episode, but I hope I’m not repeating anything. (0:36:10) Kevin: Um, there have been patches dropped both for Meneko’s night market and paleo pines. (0:36:16) Kevin: Uh, last two, well, the last game I covered and the one we’re covering today, (0:36:20) Kevin: um, the Meneko’s night market. (0:36:23) Kevin: I don’t know all the details, but I’m very thankful that they’ve got these patches (0:36:28) Kevin: out quickly and, uh, and they’re already available for switch and steam versions. (0:36:34) Kevin: Um, I hope Al will find the links and maybe put them in the show notes, (0:36:39) Kevin: but, uh, go check them out. (0:36:41) Kevin: I will possibly fire up Meneko’s night market again, see how much it’s improved. (0:36:45) Kevin: Um, because I very much liked that game, just hoping for few fixes and well, (0:36:50) Kevin: they roll some out, uh, paleo pines. (0:36:53) Kevin: I read the patch notes and it’s fascinating. (0:36:57) Kevin: Uh, at least one of the items is fascinating. (0:36:59) Kevin: In general, they just kind of, you know, polished up a few edges and, and did nice things. (0:37:05) Kevin: No major updates. (0:37:06) Kevin: Um, but, uh, with that said, let’s, let’s just get on into it. (0:37:13) Kevin: Uh, let’s talk about paleo pines. (0:37:14) Spencer: Yes, paleopines. (0:37:15) Kevin: Okay. (0:37:18) Kevin: So this is available on steam switch. (0:37:22) Kevin: I don’t know what else it’s available on. (0:37:23) Spencer: I think it’s available on everything. (0:37:24) Kevin: Uh, is it? (0:37:27) Kevin: Okay. (0:37:27) Kevin: Um. (0:37:28) Kevin: So, for people who don’t know, the elevator pitch is pretty simple. (0:37:33) Kevin: It’s farming, but you have dinosaurs. (0:37:35) Kevin: Um, it’s what’s on the box, and it’s what you get. (0:37:38) Kevin: Um. (0:37:39) Spencer: It’s… exactly what you get. (0:37:39) Kevin: Yup. (0:37:44) Kevin: Alright, so let’s, before we get into the nitty gritty, what are your overall thoughts? (0:37:51) Spencer: My overall thoughts and opinions, it’s good to start off with this because I’m someone that kind of complains about things even if I like them. So I enjoyed this game. I did have a thoroughly good time myself playing this game. There are plenty of things I would change about it but ultimately this is probably a game I will come back to I might even play it after we stop talking to be quite honest. (0:38:14) Kevin: Okay, I probably will see [laugh] (0:38:17) Spencer: yeah the last episode I was on (0:38:21) Spencer: I talked about parkasaurus I don’t think I’ve touched that game since we stopped talking about it yeah but this game this game was definitely enjoyable it’s got a lot of charm you know using the dinosaurs for farming is different I guess I mean I’m not as big of a farming game player has you know you guys are so maybe this is just exactly the same you just skinned as dinosaurs but it was fun (0:38:25) Kevin: Hahaha, well there you go. (0:38:39) Kevin: » Yes, right, yeah, yep. (0:38:51) Spencer: it has a collection element to it very much kind of like Pokemon or something like that you know so it scratches a lot of different itches for a lot of different people and I feel like you can get yourself lost without necessarily doing the main kind of quest so to speak yeah there are missions that you do too in this game and you know I spent plenty of time just fumbling around doing my own thing. (0:38:57) Kevin: - Yeah. (0:39:21) Spencer: You know, ultimately that’s kind of what I like in games like this, so yeah, I had a great time playing it, great, great might be a little exaggerating, so yeah, what did you think? (0:39:30) Kevin: Mm-hmm, okay All right, um So overall it’s a definite thumbs up and recommend for me This is hard for me because I love dinosaurs very much I Was a dinosaur kid growing up. I watched Jurassic Park when I was little dinosaurs were my Pokemon before Pokemon and (0:39:57) Kevin: And so, obviously I’m heavily biased toward a game that… (0:40:00) Kevin: …explores that, but as someone who is relatively well-versed in farming games, I still think it’s enjoyable. (0:40:11) Kevin: All the points you made, I agree with. (0:40:15) Kevin: So, let’s get into the… (0:40:19) Kevin: But, overall though, I would recommend this to people to try out. (0:40:23) Kevin: If you enjoy farming games, I think there’s a good chance you’ll enjoy this. (0:40:27) Kevin: And if you enjoy dinosaurs, you will probably also- (0:40:30) Kevin: enjoy this. (0:40:31) Spencer: you might even enjoy it even more than if you were just a farming game person quite honestly. (0:40:32) Kevin: I actually agree, yes, because I do think the dinosaurs are done really well. (0:40:40) Kevin: Um, but okay, let’s start into this specific. (0:40:43) Kevin: So, I have three sections here. (0:40:48) Kevin: The bad, the good, and the ugly. (0:40:50) Spencer: OK. (0:40:51) Kevin: So let’s start with the bad. What complaints do you have? (0:40:51) Spencer: Complaints. (0:40:56) Spencer: So the biggest thing– my complaints are small things that add up, right? (0:41:04) Spencer: Accessing things. (0:41:05) Spencer: For instance, if you’re on a mounted dinosaur, (0:41:09) Spencer: for whatever reason– unless I’m just horrible at this game– (0:41:12) Spencer: you cannot access or interact with things other than the dinosaur’s interaction. (0:41:18) Spencer: So let’s say you start off with the parasaur. (0:41:20) Spencer: That’s just your dinosaur that you start off with. (0:41:21) Kevin: Right? (0:41:23) Kevin: Right (0:41:23) Spencer: And each dinosaur has a skill. (0:41:27) Spencer: They can clear debris, which is what the parasaur can do. (0:41:30) Spencer: And it can sprint. Two actions. (0:41:32) Spencer: But if you’re not doing that, you can’t interact with anything else. (0:41:38) Spencer: If you want to talk to someone, you have to get off your dinosaur. (0:41:41) Spencer: If you want to access your storage, you have to get off your dinosaur. (0:41:44) Spencer: Which just blows me away. I was like, (0:41:46) Spencer: “Come on, the person’s right there. Just let me talk to them. (0:41:48) Spencer: to them. Why do I have to get off my dinosaur? (0:41:49) Kevin: Yep, yep, absolutely, um Yeah, I I want to put just a little side note, um since we’re getting into it, uh Spencer and I are dinosaurs or nerds so we will be using dinosaur names Apologies if you if you listener might not be familiar. I invite you to look them up because dinosaurs are cool (0:41:50) Spencer: So, that would be one thing I would, you know, developers, if you’re listening, patch that, please. (0:42:17) Spencer: Indeed, and then you’ll see the name and then you’ll be like, “How do I pronounce that?” (0:42:21) Spencer: And quite honestly, we probably won’t pronounce all of them right, but it’s fun and trying. (0:42:25) Kevin: yep yes okay but um but yes that’s that’s a good point um that is annoying how you can’t talk to someone uh or gather certain points gather certain materials off foraging points and whatnot while on a dinosaur uh at the very yeah no judge say that I can kind of understand the the foraging part maybe you’re high up on a t-rex but come on (0:42:44) Spencer: That’s correct, because some… Oh, sorry, go ahead. (0:42:55) Kevin: can talk to someone while mounted on a t-rex I can say hey (0:42:59) Spencer: Yeah, I don’t really understand the decision, to be quite honest. (0:43:05) Kevin: Yeah, well, there’s a few things I don’t 100% understand, like, so there’s a handful of little things. I don’t know if they all add up to me something major, but like, one of my biggest gripes is inventory stuff. You can get big numbers of items, right? Like, you can get hundreds and hundreds of pieces of wood. (0:43:28) Kevin: Well, when you want to move between your bag and your storage or whatever, you don’t have the option of saying, “Okay, take out…” (0:43:35) Kevin: …20 or 30. You can only do the entire amount or half of it. And that’s frustrating. (0:43:38) Spencer: Yes, I was gonna ask this, I wasn’t sure if I was just like, not getting- (0:43:44) Spencer: Was there a tutorial I missed? Or if this is like, you know, just, but yeah, it’s only stacks, right? (0:43:47) Kevin: nope, or at least, I missed it too then. (0:43:51) Kevin: Yeah, you can, and what’s odd is, it exists because when you sell things at the trader or whatever, (0:43:52) Spencer: Like, I was like- (0:43:57) Kevin: you can select exactly how many you want to sell. (0:44:01) Kevin: But that’s the only time. (0:44:02) Spencer: Yeah, no, but then it’s and it gets even more deep than that because it’s Inventory management from your storage to inventory is only stacks, right? So like you have 300 wood in your storage and then you click on it and it’ll put all 300 in there but in stacks of a hundred and then now you have to go back in return 200 stacks, so you only have one stack and (0:44:23) Kevin: Yup, yup, exactly. (0:44:29) Spencer: Then when you go to sell that wood, here’s what get (0:44:32) Spencer: me. You go to sell that wood, and then you can select individually. You can select like I only sell two wood, right? And they do have a button for min and max. So like I want to sell the whole stack of wood, but they don’t have a button to increment it in tens. Also, which I feel like is something like, yeah, that really, that whole thing needs a lot of work. (0:44:56) Kevin: Yeah, it is wild and again, there’s even the trading like said it’s still missing that stacks of 10 which would be nice But the fact that that’s the only place where you can do Individual counts of whatnot. It’s baffling to me Let’s see what what other little complaints can you think of? (0:45:20) Spencer: So, I don’t know if this would be a little complaint. (0:45:25) Spencer: I don’t know where this falls on your good, bad, and ugly. (0:45:25) Kevin: Hehe. (0:45:29) Spencer: I will say there were a lot of things I was finding out about the game. (0:45:34) Spencer: I didn’t get, I’ll be honest, I didn’t get like probably end game, is there an end game? (0:45:39) Spencer: I don’t really know. (0:45:41) Kevin: I think there is. I mean, there’s the main quest. You have to find where the rest of the parasaurs are. (0:45:42) Spencer: There is, right? (0:45:44) Spencer: Yeah. (0:45:45) Spencer: Yeah. (0:45:46) Spencer: Yeah, you know, like I said earlier, I kind of… (0:45:50) Spencer: just ended up doing my own thing, which is, you know, it is what it is. (0:45:52) Kevin: Yeah. (0:45:53) Kevin: Uh huh. (0:45:55) Spencer: That’s kind of how it’s designed in the game. (0:45:57) Spencer: But so there’s a lot of things that I feel like I was finding out kind of on my own without… (0:46:06) Spencer: that would have been better maybe explained, you know, like I’ll be honest. (0:46:12) Spencer: I didn’t realize that holding what was the RZ was sprint for some of those dinosaurs. (0:46:18) Spencer: I was puttin’ around that whole area, and it was taking me forever. (0:46:18) Kevin: Yep Yeah, ha ha ha ha oh no Oh No Um, oh, that’s raw. I agree with you Um, this is a complaint I have about many games because I think it’s a critical thing to be clear and explain yourself well and whatnot Um, I am struggling to think of I had a specific example, but I can’t think of it right now (0:46:23) Spencer: It would take like a half day just to get across the place. (0:46:47) Kevin: The sprinting thing there is a (0:46:48) Kevin: prompt on the bottom of the screen, but if you don’t pay it, they don’t call it out or anything. (0:46:52) Kevin: So it’s easy to miss, because there’s other prompts that are there, (0:46:56) Kevin: and the sprinting prompt is added when you’re on the right dinosaur, (0:47:00) Kevin: but it’s not there when you’re not on it, so it’s easily missable. (0:47:04) Kevin: possible. (0:47:06) Spencer: Oh, and so here’s the thing with the sprinting thing, too. (0:47:12) Spencer: If you click on, I believe it’s just R, (0:47:15) Spencer: your character will auto run in that direction. (0:47:16) Kevin: Wait, what? (0:47:17) Kevin: I didn’t know that! (0:47:19) Kevin: She- what?! (0:47:19) Spencer: Yes, there’s an auto run button. (0:47:21) Kevin: Oh my goodness. (0:47:22) Spencer: So I was clicking auto run, and I was thinking it was the sprint half the time. (0:47:22) Kevin: Oh, there you go. (0:47:24) Kevin: Oh, case in point. (0:47:32) Spencer: And I was like, this doesn’t look any faster. (0:47:35) Spencer: I guess I don’t need to hold the button. (0:47:36) Spencer: I feel like there’s a lot of things that get fed to you at either inopportune moments or just as far as information goes. (0:47:50) Spencer: You’re just kind of like, “Huh, I could have used that information like three days ago.” (0:47:54) Kevin: Yup, there was oh the So there is I remember my example. Um, there is a help option in the pause menu and it does have some tutorials in there It doesn’t really let you know that they’re there Which is a shame because a number of them are very helpful. They explain how to use your tools The one I wanted to mentioned was the soil we’ll get into it into it in a bit but essentially how to properly fertilize and till the soil and stuff like that. (0:48:29) Kevin: That information, I didn’t realize how it worked until I happened to find it in the tutorial items in the help menu. (0:48:37) Kevin: It would have been nice if that had been called out earlier. (0:48:40) Spencer: It’s funny that you mention the soil because it wasn’t until only the other day that I was, again, I was just thumbing through the profiles of the vegetables and I was like, (0:48:51) Spencer: “Huh, they really want you to crop rotate in this game, don’t they?” (0:48:53) Kevin: Yep, yep. (0:48:55) Spencer: That would have been useful to know before I planted tons of vegetables in random areas. (0:49:01) Kevin: Yep, um, absolutely. (0:49:04) Kevin: Um, so yeah, that is a complaint, like I said, I have about many games, just lack of clarity or not explaining things well. (0:49:12) Kevin: Uh, one hopefully that can get updated because that’s not impossible to fix. (0:49:17) Kevin: Just add some more prompts at certain points, so. (0:49:19) Spencer: No. (0:49:19) Spencer: Yeah, and I will give them credit, right? (0:49:20) Kevin: Fingers crossed we get those patches. (0:49:25) Spencer: Like some games you sit through tutorials and they are like, you know, some omnipotent someone or other talking at you going, “Hit A to use the ox.” (0:49:31) Kevin: Yep, yep Yep Yeah, it does it is not very handhold be not at all you Yeah, that’s One of the pros in my book that it doesn’t really put any pressure on you in almost any way (0:49:35) Spencer: You know, and then you’re like, “Okay, like I get it.” (0:49:37) Spencer: And then you have to sit there for like an hour. (0:49:39) Spencer: Right? (0:49:40) Spencer: This game really does kind of let you play the game almost right away. (0:49:58) Kevin: And I’ll get into that later when we talk about quests I think in the more (0:50:01) Kevin: detail but one final item I wanted to add in the bad list well I guess this kind of goes in the ugly I’m not the biggest fan of the art style of the game so okay well let me be more specific I like the dinosaurs the dinosaurs look great they’re they’re very cutesy and the way they’re presented in this game where people are just hanging out they’re your pals and working with them (0:50:16) Spencer: Really? (0:50:31) Kevin: and they live on your farm they’re not intimidating or scary I think that was managed really well I think that works well and I think it’s fantastic my part problem is the people right the people also have this very cutesy art style and it’s this might just be a very personal thing but it is really (0:50:48) Spencer: Okay, okay. (0:51:01) Kevin: looks like a Disney Junior show basically that’s the way I describe it in fact I watch Bluey right so I’ve seen other ads for Disney Junior shows there is one actually called Dino Ranch and it looks a lot like this yeah (0:51:07) Spencer: Yeah, I mean (0:51:18) Spencer: Yeah, the people are, I mean, it’s an art style, that’s for sure. (0:51:24) Spencer: It’s a design choice that they made. (0:51:27) Kevin: Yeah, and everything is very saccharine, like very… (0:51:31) Kevin: Happy… (0:51:33) Kevin: No one gets angry or there’s big problems or anything like that. (0:51:38) Kevin: There’s a character who says “zippity” and it just feels very kid show… (0:51:42) Kevin: Umm… (0:51:47) Spencer: Yeah, well, eh. So there’s a couple characters. One that stood out to me as Pippin. (0:51:54) Spencer: He does kind of get a little grumpy. (0:51:54) Kevin: Yeah They they’re actually in be non-binary Which I just like a thumbs up. That’s all right. No, but I just thumbs up to the Devs for throwing that in there right and I’ll have Pippin Pippin’s a little bit of a gremlin Go ahead Oh, yeah, yeah, I forgot about that that. (0:51:57) Spencer: Oh, sorry. (0:52:10) Spencer: Ah, yeah, but they get a little like, onry about things if you ask them to make like a, they make these, yeah, they make these like treats that, that’s basically how you tame the dinosaurs and they have like very specific, “Oh, it’s my family recipe, like don’t, we don’t screw with it” and then you ask them to make other treats and then they kind of get all upset about it instead of like, “Ah, fine, take your, take your

Al and Kev talk about Mineko's Night Market Also, we talk about Stardew Valley 1.6, the recently teased Lord of the Rings cottagecore game, and a number of recent release date announcements. Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:42: What Have We Been Up To 00:15:56: News 00:45:50: Mineko’s Night Market 01:32:52: Outro Links Mineko’s Night Market Release Dates Mineko Plush Coral Island PS5 Critter Crops Delay Sun Down Survivors Update Orange Season Update Travellers Rest Update To Pixelia Kickstarter Stardew Valley 1.6 Sneak Peek Stardew Valley Joja Parrot Tales of the Shire Teaser Tales of the Shire Site Mineko’s Night Market Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. My name is Al And I am playing the neko’s night market as we speak Fantastic we are gonna have so much to talk about this game. I think it’s gonna be (0:00:36) Kevin: I’m Kevin. (0:00:37) Kevin: Um, excuse me, I believe that is Wormburger’s Night Market? (0:00:47) Kevin: Uh, you think the game that’s been in development for eight years and has been my most anticipated game of like two years running? [laughs] (0:01:00) Al: Funny because like yeah, so like this podcast I’ve been going for like nearly five years now, right? (0:01:04) Al: And this game had already been announced four years before the podcast started So quite a while Did neko just poop on the ground It just just sat on the ground and stood up and then it was a garden block (0:01:12) Kevin: 2015 baby that’s that’s wild like I don’t I didn’t (0:01:25) Kevin: Yeah, if that’s possible, yeah. (0:01:26) Al: I think Niko just pooped on the ground. (0:01:30) Al: To give me somewhere to plant, all right. Well let’s see what happens with that. (0:01:34) Al: We’re gonna talk about the Niko’s Night Market, because somehow we managed to play this game in the five days since it came out. (0:01:43) Al: Yeah, we’re gonna talk about it. Before that, we’ve got a bunch of news to talk about. (0:01:43) Kevin: Yeah, but I played a lot so I have things to talk about (0:01:57) Al: there’s stuff we need to talk about, there’s stuff we definitely need to talk about. (0:01:58) Kevin: Is there I don’t I don’t I don’t know Not really I like going in blind [laugh] (0:02:00) Al: Have you not looked through the news? (0:02:02) Al: Oh Kevin, right, that’s fine, let’s go in blind. (0:02:05) Al: Most of it is pretty small, pretty quick, still good, but we’ve got two really chunky bits of news at the end that we need to talk about. (0:02:11) Kevin: Wait, we haven’t talked about that one yet? (0:02:13) Al: We have not talked about that yet. (0:02:14) Kevin: I- (0:02:14) Kevin: Oh my gosh, okay, we do have things to talk about, all right. (0:02:17) Al: Yep, we have big stuff to talk about. (0:02:20) Kevin: I know- I like how you know exactly what I’m looking at. (0:02:22) Al: Well, of course, of course I know. (0:02:26) Al: So we’ve recorded the last episode, I think like the day before that news came out. (0:02:30) Al: Um, was it me and Cody? I think it was. Uh, we, we’d recorded really early that week and then they came out with our news and that was really frustrating. So anyway. (0:02:31) Kevin: was it okay yes yes I didn’t know it was it good good (0:02:39) Al: Um, uh, first of all, though, Kevin, what have you been up to? (0:02:46) Kevin: Um, okay, so in the Good good old me decided to do a whole bunch of things before Monneko dropped so you know the Pokemon DLC has been out for a minute, there’s been a lot of talk and So I finally gave in and I started playing Pokemon, but I wanted to play a good one. So I’m playing sword and shield I started a nuzlocke (0:03:22) Kevin: And it’s it’s a fun one to nuzlock through Because there’s so many a wide variety of encounters and and It’s surprisingly challenging at times. There’s there’s some heavy hitters in the game One going back to that Jen Like all all joking aside I I This is a subjective opinion, but I think it looks better (0:03:31) Al: Mmm, yes. (0:03:52) Kevin: And then scarlet violet like maybe not technically there’s probably It’s… (0:03:54) Al: I mean, I don’t think I disagree with that. I mean, I’m definitely one of the Scarlet and Violet enjoyers and defenders, but I don’t think that as a game it looks better than Sword and Shield. Definitely not. But I think personally that’s generally a problem with open world games. I don’t think that any of them look amazing. Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom have some moments where you’re like, “Wow.” But those are very few (0:04:09) Kevin: Yeah yeah. (0:04:19) Kevin: Yeah. (0:04:20) Kevin: Yes. (0:04:24) Kevin: You’re- you’re ner- yep, you’re right. (0:04:24) Al: and most of the time it’s just the same rocks and grass again. I think that is just a problem with them. So yes, I agree. (0:04:29) Kevin: Yeah. (0:04:31) Kevin: That’s fair. Yeah, no, that’s- that’s- I think that’s accurate. (0:04:35) Kevin: Um, so yeah, it is an uphill battle, I think, in that sense for Scarlet Violet, but… (0:04:41) Kevin: Even stuff like just the color palettes, I think they really, really pop in, uh, Sword and Shield. (0:04:43) Al: Oh yeah, especially Balonia. Amazing, amazing town. Just gorgeous, love it. (0:04:46) Kevin: Um… (0:04:50) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, the neon mushroom town, it’s awesome, yep, yep. (0:04:58) Kevin: And also one other comment, just like, again, looking back. (0:05:02) Kevin: The gym battles are just so good in Sword and Shield, (0:05:09) Kevin: like just this whole spectacle of a stadium battle and the chanting, (0:05:11) Al: Oh, yes. Yeah, definitely. The music. (0:05:15) Kevin: which, you know, actually fits in on like Scarlet Violet. (0:05:20) Kevin: It’s so bombastic and thrilling, and again, (0:05:25) Kevin: just comparing to Scarlet Violet, like, because of the freedom, (0:05:30) Kevin: I don’t know, they just, it wasn’t as memorable maybe, but again, (0:05:35) Kevin: that’s something subjective, but point B, ultimately, (0:05:38) Kevin: Sword and Shield is still really good, really fun, (0:05:41) Kevin: and I’m enjoying going through one of those luck. (0:05:44) Kevin: Well, I was before Monetco dropped, um, aside from that, (0:05:49) Kevin: I have had a big fighting game, Inch, um, so I dusted off a game called Skullgirls! (0:05:56) Kevin: Um, are you familiar with this at all, Al? (0:05:58) Kevin: Okay, so Skullgirls was originally released in 2013-2014, (0:06:07) Kevin: and they are still developing new stuff for it. Um, not a sequel, like the same game. (0:06:14) Kevin: It’s wild, um, it was, uh, it’s no- (0:06:19) Kevin: notable in the fighting game community for a couple of reasons. (0:06:23) Kevin: One, I mean, it’s a good game, for fighting game reasons, um, (0:06:26) Kevin: but aside from that, um, it’s all hand-drawn art, so it looks really good. (0:06:32) Kevin: Um, it has like a very stylistic art deco thing going on with a lot of its environments and settings. (0:06:39) Kevin: Um, and as the name implies, Skullgirls, um, at least originally, the original eight, (0:06:46) Kevin: I believe we’re all female fighters, um, which was you know, obviously not the norm in gaming in general, right? (0:06:54) Kevin: Um, it’s an all female cast, um, and they’ve done rounds of DLCs since then. (0:07:00) Kevin: Um, I think it’s going to be up to 18 by the end of this year. (0:07:04) Kevin: Um, I think there’s two males, but the rest are all females. (0:07:10) Kevin: Um, well, I mean, there’s a robot female and an alien monster thing. (0:07:16) Kevin: Um, but so, you know, um, take that how you will. (0:07:20) Kevin: Uh, it’s, it’s dynamic. (0:07:22) Kevin: It’s fun. (0:07:22) Kevin: It’s like not even fighting game or not. (0:07:26) Kevin: It’s, it’s just very good writing comical and then vibrant. (0:07:31) Kevin: Um, so yeah, skull girls to anyone who enjoys fighting games. (0:07:34) Kevin: That’s a hearty recommendation. (0:07:36) Kevin: It’s basically out on anything and everything. (0:07:38) Kevin: Um, uh, but, uh, aside from, yeah, so those were the two things I did. (0:07:42) Kevin: And then, uh, Meneco Wednesday came and it’s been all Meneco since then. (0:07:47) Kevin: What about you? (0:07:50) Al: Yeah, well, I mean, I think basically Maneko is the only game I’ve been playing this week. (0:07:56) Al: Maneko, Maneko, Maneko. (0:07:59) Al: I did play some more Pokémon, so I think I got my… (0:08:03) Al: I can’t remember where I was when we last talked, or when I last said it on the podcast, (0:08:08) Al: but I have done… (0:08:10) Al: I’ve completed the DLC on both games. (0:08:14) Al: I decided just to do… (0:08:16) Al: So my scarlet was like basically I hadn’t done anything in it. (0:08:20) Al: So I did the DLC without having done any of the badges. (0:08:23) Al: And then I was like, I’m just going to do all the badges. (0:08:26) Al: So I just did everything on that one. (0:08:27) Al: So I’ve now completed that. (0:08:27) Kevin: Right at least it’s fast to do it unlike other Pokemon games you can just knock them out (0:08:29) Al: And then, yeah, certainly once you’ve got everything. (0:08:36) Al: And then what else did I do? (0:08:39) Al: I did the DLC on my scarlet, my violet as well. (0:08:43) Al: And I completed the decks on that. (0:08:46) Al: And there’s a couple of side quests as well in the DLC. (0:08:49) Al: I did those as well. (0:08:50) Al: And yeah, just a bunch of Pokemon stuff in there. (0:08:56) Kevin: Have you- have you not gotten a bit tired of Scarlet Violet after doing it like three four times? (0:09:03) Al: times, yeah. I mean the story, yeah, sure, right? Like, the story bit is not fun. I still enjoy playing those games. Like, I still enjoy the core loop of those games. I still enjoy collecting Pokémon, blah, blah, blah. I think I have decided that I’m not going to do the new Professor Oak challenge that I suggested. I think that’s probably going a bit far. And if I want to do a Professor Oak challenge. (0:09:30) Kevin: until the second DLC drops. (0:09:33) Al: Well, I was going to wait until that because if you’re going to do it, then do it all the way, right? (0:09:39) Al: But then I was like, actually, if I want to do it, there’s so many games I haven’t done a Professor Oak challenge of, (0:09:43) Al: just do another one. (0:09:45) Al: I’m thinking about maybe doing Legends Arceus 1, for example, which could be fun, (0:09:53) Al: because I don’t have a Legends Arceus save file just now. (0:09:56) Al: I was thinking when you were talking about Nuzlockes, maybe it would be interesting as a Nuzlock, (0:10:03) Al: because obviously you’re not using Pokemon, right? (0:10:05) Al: So they’re not going to die, but you can die in that game. (0:10:07) Al: You can get knocked out in that game. (0:10:09) Kevin: Oh. (0:10:09) Al: So doing like a no death Arceus run, that could be interesting. (0:10:10) Kevin: No. (0:10:16) Al: Yeah, that’s probably about games. (0:10:19) Al: I mean, Pokemon Go, obviously, but that’s probably about it with games. (0:10:23) Al: I have, however, been watching a couple of things. (0:10:25) Al: I’ve been watching X-Men 92 and the run-up to the new X-Men 97 coming out next year. (0:10:30) Al: And I. (0:10:30) Kevin: Alright, how’s that been? (0:10:33) Al: It’s it’s good fun. I’m surprised at how like quickly and succinctly they’re getting through X-Men story lines like Like in the first season they do like like five or six big X-Men stories Like just that’s it. Those ones are done now and you’re like, oh my word, right? Wow, that was fast Yeah Well, it’s (0:10:50) Kevin: Yeah, this was prime 90s Saturday morning cartoon stuff, so like, there’s no time for plots or build up. (0:10:58) Kevin: Go do your enemy of the week. (0:11:01) Al: That’s the thing and then there’s no (0:11:01) Kevin: You got toys to sell, man! (0:11:03) Al: There’s no filler episodes that are all action all the time So it will be interesting to see where they go because there’s still four seasons to go Just I’ve just finished the first season. So I’ve got four more to go and I’m like I feel like they’re running out of stories by now Although I do believe there is a crossover with the 90s spider-man as well that I’ll need to watch at some point Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I know but that’s my I need to watch that as well right because it’s a crossover (0:11:03) Kevin: The- (0:11:20) Kevin: There is, but that is under the spine. (0:11:31) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, I If I assure you it does not matter Well, good luck with that because I’m sure it didn’t matter to the writers or whatever I will I will say like I (0:11:33) Al: I haven’t figured out where it lies in the timeline. (0:11:37) Al: I know it doesn’t matter. I know. I know it doesn’t matter, Kevin, but it matters to me. (0:11:56) Kevin: Was still pretty young when that X-Men first aired so I watched some of it (0:12:00) Al: Yes, in 1992, yes. (0:12:01) Kevin: but Yes, you know the year I was born I might be older than me So I didn’t watch it I Missed the boat a little on that one. I didn’t I watched it but just not like everything right but it’s still very much like many people was very iconic informative in my What I think of the X-Men right like that’s the theme the colors all the looks (0:12:05) Al: I was also quite young. (0:12:31) Kevin: It’s still my favorite beast of all time Yeah, but good stuff good stuff (0:12:40) Al: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:12:41) Al: And then I also watched for the first time Scott Pilgrim versus the World, (0:12:46) Al: the film that is, the live action films. (0:12:46) Kevin: Okay, I have not watched this tell me tell me Wait we’re talking the live-action right? Yes. Yes. Okay, cuz the animated one’s not out yet Yes, okay. Yes, that’s right. Okay Okay, I hear a lot of love for this movie thing (0:12:48) Al: I thought it was really good. (0:12:50) Al: I think it does a good job. (0:12:52) Al: Like, obviously live action. (0:12:53) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:12:55) Al: The animated one, it’s not, it’s not a, yeah, and it’s a series, I believe. (0:12:58) Al: It’s not a film. (0:13:00) Al: But so like. (0:13:02) Al: I think, I think, yeah, so I think a lot of people like it and a lot of people (0:13:10) Al: thought it was fine. (0:13:11) Al: I will say that live action is difficult to do, like, a good kind of comic bookie style film, like most, most live action comic book stuff doesn’t try and be comic bookie, right? (0:13:25) Al: But Scott Pilgrim definitely does. (0:13:29) Al: And I think they did it really well. (0:13:31) Al: I think it works like that. (0:13:32) Al: Like you, it definitely feels like a comic book film. (0:13:35) Al: It’s like, you know how Into the Spider-Verse feels like a comic book film. (0:13:40) Kevin: Yes. (0:13:40) Al: It’s not live action, but it feels comic bookie, whereas all the other ones really just feel like superhero stuff, right? (0:13:40) Kevin: Yes. (0:13:43) Kevin: Yes, yes, I know. (0:13:46) Al: It’s, it, it feels like that. (0:13:48) Al: It feels, it feels like they wanted it to feel like a comic book. (0:13:52) Al: And I think it works really well. (0:13:54) Al: I think there are a few things in the story that feel a bit odd, but that just might be me being a bit weird around it. (0:14:01) Al: I’m not sure whether it’s, because I’ve not, I’ve not read the original comic run of this, right? (0:14:07) Al: So I don’t know whether it tells it some of the bits in it. (0:14:10) Al: In a better way, or whether I’m just kind of being a bit weird with it. I don’t know. (0:14:11) Kevin: Mm-hmm Yeah, okay. All right, that’s cool Yeah, I might watch it just speak for the animated series because the animated series looks very impressive (0:14:15) Al: But I enjoyed it. It was good. (0:14:25) Al: Yes Well, that was the other thing that was the other reason why I was watching it I was like, I know I want to watch this at some point You know what why not now, you know before the animated series comes out would be a good idea (0:14:35) Kevin: Yep, yep, all right, that’s good. (0:14:43) Al: I mean bits and pieces here and there. I’m about to start the newest series of Star Trek Strange. (0:14:56) Al: There’s a lot to watch. What can I say? Have you been watching Ahsoka? Of course, as well. (0:15:01) Al: I’ve been watching Ahsoka, which I’ve been enjoying. And Loki starts this week. (0:15:07) Kevin: Oh, I i’ve got to catch up on stuff before I watch loki like I mean like the required reading. I don’t watch ant man No, I don’t think so either ant man Yes Yes, i’ve watched the original ones. I watch one division watch loki season one. So just ant man Um, but I am going to do it because yeah, I do I do too which really means yeah I just need to watch ant man, um, which uh, but i’m excited for because it looks good. Um (0:15:12) Al: I don’t think there’s a lot of required reading. (0:15:16) Al: Yeah, I’d say Ant-Man, Lokey and Ant-Man, and presumably you’ve watched WandaVision. (0:15:22) Al: Yeah. (0:15:25) Al: I suspect that’s all of it. (0:15:38) Kevin: Owen wilson’s really good in it. And so is uh, (0:15:40) Kevin: Tom loki whatever his name is it’ll it’ll stand yes tom tom loki son. Um (0:15:43) Al: Tom Hiddleston and we’ve got Kehuquan coming in as well and his character looks very fun. (0:15:54) Kevin: Yep. (0:15:54) Kevin: Alright. (0:15:55) Al: Yeah. Awesome. Well, should we talk about some news? (0:15:56) Kevin: I guess so. (0:16:00) Kevin: Hey, you wanna talk about Moneko first though? (0:16:01) Al: No, no, I do not. Let’s talk about some news. (0:16:03) Kevin: Yeah, and what’s our first news item? (0:16:07) Al: Uh, oh yeah. Oh, I hadn’t looked yet. (0:16:13) Al: I wrote all this up like four days ago. So Maneko, there’s some Maneko’s night market news. (0:16:21) Kevin: Yeah. (0:16:23) Al: So the Xbox and PlayStation versions, we’ve got dates for them now. They’re coming out on the 26th of October and the physical Switch and PS5 versions are coming the 27th of October. (0:16:36) Kevin: Uh, is it? I didn’t realize it’s already on, is it on PS5 I assume? (0:16:40) Kevin: Or wait, no, no, sorry. I’m, no, you just said that. (0:16:40) Al: No, no, so that’s the PS. Please, it’s Xbox and- (0:16:43) Al: PlayStation versions, yeah. But I think, I think, I think the PlayStation version is for PS4 and PS5, (0:16:44) Kevin: My mistake. Yes. (0:16:50) Al: but the physical version is just PS5. Well, on Switch, obviously. (0:16:54) Al: So there is a PS4 version of the game, but not physical, if that’s clear. (0:16:59) Kevin: um yeah sure it’s look by the end of october it’s going to be everywhere that’s the main but you can get it on switch or pc (0:17:08) Al: You can. You can. (0:17:10) Al: And we have it covered because you got Switch. (0:17:12) Al: I got it on PC and played it on Steam. (0:17:14) Kevin: Yup, and if that’s not enough physical for you you can get a physical manneco Well, I think you can because I’m clicking on the link and it’s not working. I don’t know why Okay, anyways, um Okay, they’re doing Okay The manneco people are doing a plush (0:17:15) Al: Oh boy. (0:17:20) Al: You can. (0:17:23) Al: Yeah, there’s a new link. (0:17:27) Al: I’ve got a new link here as far as… (0:17:29) Al: Don’t worry, it still exists. (0:17:31) Al: There you go. There’s your new link. (0:17:39) Kevin: Run of manneco. It’s a good-looking plug. It is by the it is by the (0:17:39) Al: Is that good looking plush? It’s really detailed. (0:17:43) Al: Yeah. (0:17:44) Kevin: Company called make ship which I am familiar with this is basically what they do. They do limited runs of plushies you know even They did one for Baron breakfast and I missed it I’m so sad But that’s the that’s a kicker right that it is limited. I think turn it boy had like two plushies through that but anyways So yeah make ship rise of the time recording 20 days when it comes out That’ll probably even more like two weeks left on the campaign (0:17:47) Al: Yeah, they’re doing the ooblets ones as well, I think, and stuff. (0:18:14) Kevin: So check it out if you want. It’s $30 maybe a little pricey But if you love an echo like I love an echo It’s probably worth it because you will probably never ever see any mother physical manneco birch like this again Not yet, but I will so pay day when it gets But yes and minico’s art works really well with plush I think like the the the style (0:18:40) Al: Yeah, I’m just, I’m really impressed with how detailed it is, right? Like you’ve got the eye detail, the hair detail, and the clothing detail, the ear, the backpack, it’s just, it’s all so great. (0:18:44) Kevin: Yeah, got the little mark under the eye, yeah Yeah make ship I have had make ship products before and they are quality products and yes the detail is as good as You’d hope or want or the the creators want whatever and it’s a good quality plush a decent size to not one of those tiny little things (0:19:12) Kevin: Okay, so yeah, that’s Minneko (0:19:20) Kevin: So October 20th, roughly? (0:19:22) Al: Yeah, it does actually say that on the page, you don’t have to count it. (0:19:23) Kevin: Yeah, 19th. (0:19:26) Al: If you scroll down a little bit, it shows you the date. It’s got a timeline. (0:19:29) Kevin: um okay well there you go there the look the links on the show notes click on there yeah that’s the only thing right they take forever with these limited run things but understandably so yeah oh yeah you’re oh gosh no no no that’s too close 2024 is a year away no I know I went into lone the home depot the other day and there was all the christmas decor (0:19:30) Al: “Production starts 20th of October. Shipman estimated January 13th.” (0:19:38) Al: That’s not too bad. That’s not too bad. November, December, that’s three months. (0:19:48) Al: Christmas is less than 100 days. (0:19:59) Kevin: before october that’s the norm what what else is you know what else is october (0:20:06) Al: We’ve got, we’ve got Coral Island have announced their PS5 version is coming on the 9th of October. (0:20:14) Al: I will say, you know I love a conspiracy around dates. This is a suspicious date. (0:20:20) Al: This is suspiciously close because the next update for Coral Island is the 1.0 update. (0:20:27) Al: Just saying. Now we don’t know when that’s coming, but all I’m saying is they haven’t said the PS5 (0:20:37) Kevin: once you switch there’s no going back or wait oh they mean for version well either way that still sounds very uh and they have the wean (0:20:52) Kevin: There’s the art right there. It has the merfolk in it. It’s all that looks like a 1.0 or Like a game case cover Is it I don’t know I’m (0:20:59) Al: I mean, I think that’s the same artist they’ve been using for ages, but yeah, yeah, pretty sure I’ve had pretty sure I had that wallpaper on my phone for six months. (0:21:09) Al: Yeah, so we’ll see. We’ll see whether I’m right or wrong. It might be too soon after the most recent update, but they also could have been working on both of them at the same time. We’ll find out in like a week, because that’s like a week away. (0:21:27) Al: Next we have Crater crops have been delayed to the end of the day. (0:21:29) Al: We have so many more to delay. Keep coming with your delays please. (0:21:35) Al: There’s too many games. We still have like 30 games listed that’s coming out this year. Go and delay them please. (0:21:46) Al: Would you mean no? Man alive, Kevin. (0:21:49) Al: That’s all right. It’s all right. You’ve got two weeks till you need to do the Paleo Pines episode. (0:21:49) Kevin: I want, I just want Maneko, nothing else, and I’ll leave you alone, games. (0:21:57) Al: Sundown Survivors, they’ve got their 1.4 update, which they have named “The Final Boss”. (0:22:05) Al: And I think that the update includes “The Final Boss” of the storyline. Just a thought there. (0:22:10) Kevin: What that’s wild (0:22:16) Al: It’s like, what do they call it? Bullet hell? It’s a roguelike type game. (0:22:24) Al: I’m not playing this game. I don’t know. There’s some stuff. There’s some farming, (0:22:25) Kevin: But you have Pokemon. (0:22:31) Al: right? I felt like I needed to include it, but this is… (0:22:34) Al: It’s like three quid as well. It’s very cheap. (0:22:48) Al: Okay, I don’t know what that means. (0:22:52) Al: Or was that shoot him up? Right, got you. Orange season also have an update out. The festival’s season, that is out now, (0:23:01) Al: and it adds a tomato war, the summer festival and the chicken race. (0:23:06) Kevin: These are all good, good words. I like, especially “tomato war.” (0:23:08) Al: Yeah, so it looks like it’s a festival where you’re like trying to hit each other with tomatoes. (0:23:11) Kevin: What does that mean? Oh, oh, you thought- oh. (0:23:18) Al: During the event, you and three other competitors will throw tomatoes at each other, earning points for hits and losing points for getting hit. The one with the highest score when the time is over wins. Don’t worry, all the tomatoes used weren’t apt for consumption anyway. Like it matters, it’s a game. (0:23:34) Al: Oh, there’s a swimming… Oh, wait, swimming? That is the Summer Festival. They just called it different things. They called it Summer Festival at the top and then they called it swimming festival. (0:23:34) Kevin: - Yeah. (0:23:48) Al: Let’s use swim and then there’s the chicken race, which I feel like that’s probably self-explanatory as well. (0:23:50) Kevin: just it looks good though (0:23:54) Al: Also, is that a dino chicken? Look at the colors on that chicken. (0:24:02) Kevin: I don’t… I think it’s the green-ish chicken. I don’t know. (0:24:07) Kevin: Um, there’s a whole bunch of other… (0:24:09) Al: Yes, they have the key one, I think, being that they’ve added control support, so this is good. (0:24:14) Al: Yes, yes, I do. As someone with a Steam Deck, I very much like controller support on Steam Games. (0:24:21) Al: Next, we have another update. Travelers Rest have their drinks and staff update. So… (0:24:31) Kevin: Those sound important to a game where you’re running a tabber. (0:24:35) Al: Yes. Yeah, so customers can order drinks. (0:24:39) Al: You can serve them drinks, and then there’s also… you can employ employees. (0:24:46) Al: They also added seasons to the game. Like, I feel like what was in this game before now, right? (0:24:52) Kevin: You can hire a bouncer. (0:24:53) Kevin: I’m wondering! (0:24:54) Al: They’ve added the guest room system as well. Like, there’s a lot in this update. (0:24:56) Kevin: New beverage aging system was that… (0:25:00) Kevin: There- ooh. (0:25:02) Kevin: That you’d expect in a tavern. (0:25:07) Kevin: A similar game. (0:25:07) Al: To be fair, to be fair, isn’t it? (0:25:09) Al: access. So it’s 0.6.1 update. Right, next we have two Pixellia which we’ve mentioned before but they are now in Kickstarter. Now what I want to do is I want Kevin to go and watch the entirety of this video before we talk about this. (0:25:14) Kevin: It’s a fun idea, just a little more time in the oven and it looks like- (0:25:29) Al: So I will probably cut this out listeners but I want Kevin to go and listen and then tell us what his thoughts. (0:25:29) Kevin: Alright. Alright, here we go. (0:25:32) Kevin: Are you sh- (0:25:34) Kevin: Alright, you don’t want- I can do it live as I’m watching. (0:25:38) Kevin: Alright. (0:25:39) Al: I mean you can do it live if you want but you don’t need to. (0:25:40) Kevin: Alright, based on my true story, is that what it just said? (0:25:45) Kevin: Yup, on my true story. (0:25:48) Kevin: I can live my life how I see fit, okay. (0:25:50) Kevin: Pixelian is a whole awful word. (0:25:53) Kevin: Is this just Pixel Sims? (0:25:53) Al: I know, right? (0:25:58) Al: I mean, I don’t know, I don’t think it’s Sims. (0:26:01) Al: It feels more like Pixel’s Second Life. (0:26:05) Kevin: or that short yeah oh yeah I’ll look at there’s a fashion runway yeah there’s a lot going on here well you can really do anything you can be a band basketball farmer okay you can you can decorate your space yeah okay this is just Sick in life pixel version. (0:26:10) Al: Because like, you are playing, because you’ve got one character that you’re playing. And it’s like, there’s so much going on. (0:26:20) Al: This is the thing, it just keeps going. (0:26:34) Kevin: Um (0:26:35) Kevin: Let’s embrace the thrill what you can rob banks And a hack I saw a binary oh my gosh grand theft auto actual street traffic violations Of course build bonds, what could that mean? (0:26:40) Al: Uh-huh, you can rob banks (0:26:49) Al: Yeah, you know, and then. (0:26:55) Kevin: You can’t go to jail. Yeah, i’m sure there’s I hope that jail system’s innovative Or immersive (0:27:02) Al: Yeah, I don’t know. I wonder if you can break out of it or not. (0:27:05) Al: What isn’t there? What isn’t there in this game? Like when I first saw this, I just thought it would be like another like life sim, standard life sim, but there’s an insane amount in this. (0:27:06) Kevin: Oh, you can you absolutely can oh, well, there’s a nightclub. Can you do crimes at the (0:27:20) Kevin: I mean, it is a life sim, but it’s a lot of life. (0:27:22) Al: Yeah, you can be a boxer. (0:27:24) Kevin: They really, this really is everything. (0:27:28) Kevin: Yup. (0:27:29) Kevin: Fishing, oh, there’s our cottage core. (0:27:31) Al: There’s our farming. (0:27:31) Kevin: Yeah, but who’s gonna, who wants to do that when you can rob banks? (0:27:36) Kevin: What is that? (0:27:37) Kevin: Is that the UN? (0:27:38) Kevin: Look, they have the bank robber right on the cover art. (0:27:40) Al: I think so. (0:27:42) Al: This is absolutely wild. (0:27:44) Kevin: That’s, they know that’s the good one. (0:27:48) Kevin: All right, there you go. (0:27:50) Kevin: They can’t do anything. (0:27:51) Kevin: It is. (0:27:54) Kevin: Wow, and boy, they’re so- (0:28:00) Al: Yeah, it’s not a huge goal. But yeah, still, I mean, you’ve seen ones with small goals not get hit. (0:28:06) Al: So, yeah, it’s going all right. Well, yeah, this is 2Pixellia. 2Pixellia is a pixel art life simulator game set in the charming country of Pixellia. Your journey begins with a life-changing decision to start a new life from scratch, bleh. And as you step off the bus, your choices will determine what that life will become. I wonder how much of that is like actual choice. I wonder if there’s things that you can’t actually do. (0:28:11) Kevin: They really do have politics. (0:28:30) Al: Like, do they build in, like, privilege and stuff like that? (0:28:36) Al: Is it easier for certain people to do certain things? (0:28:36) Kevin: Oh Oh, that would I would applaud them so hard if they did oh my gosh Idol I would would it be fun playing the game. I don’t know but reading it and seeing it happen and the Twitter Tweets that would come out of that. Oh my gosh, that would be the best (0:28:47) Al: I don’t know if that would be fun or not, that’s my only question. (0:28:54) Al: Yeah, it would be great as an art piece, certainly, right? (0:29:06) Kevin: Oh my gosh Okay Yeah, yeah just like the South Park difficulty slider Oh My gosh, okay. Look, you know what? They don’t even have to put gameplay in it But you like just lean into it like you can do anything (0:29:07) Al: But yeah, would that make it a fun game? (0:29:09) Al: I don’t know. (0:29:15) Al: I’m probably going to cut this bit, but like, you know, hard. (0:29:17) Al: More does your black, right? (0:29:18) Al: Yeah. (0:29:35) Kevin: Right in there. They’re added. That’s what they’re saying (0:29:36) Kevin: in their campaign. They’re advertising right. You can do anything and you can have like you could be a boxer You can be a bank robber. You can be a farmer. You can have privilege as a person of color You can do anything Oh my god, I mean there’s politics so the anarchy might Anarchism whatever you want to call it might be in the cards (0:30:06) Kevin: Dismantle the establishment Um, wow, that’s really uh, we’re very big and ambitious. That’s the word ambitious. Um And it looks the trailer looks like a game and with that small of a goal i’m assuming they’re Basically done It’s more game than not (0:30:23) Al: Yeah, so it does say that they’re expecting the final version to be out in May next year, (0:30:31) Al: I believe with the alpha coming out in December. So, I mean, that sounds to me like they, yeah, (0:30:38) Al: they have the features, right? They have the game and the alpha and beta will actually be an alpha and a beta, which is like actually testing the stuff that you’ve done rather than just going, “Hey, here’s a game without the stuff!” Right? You know, it’s like… (0:30:48) Kevin: Yep, does it work cough travelers rest cough No, I know (0:30:53) Al: “Here’s a game that has some stuff!” (0:30:56) Al: Which is… Well, I mean, that’s early on. They’re not calling it an alpha or beta. (0:31:00) Al: I just… I find it really annoying. Anyway, we don’t need to get into this again. (0:31:03) Al: What have I written in it? Yeah. It’s going to be interesting. Interesting to see. (0:31:07) Kevin: Yes, it’s big while yeah, that’s that’s yeah, you can really do anything sailing still an awful name So the there are clouds in the sky the ocean is wet Go ahead go ahead (0:31:10) Al: So, we’re going to talk about Stardew Valley. Let me start off. Let me start this off. (0:31:20) Al: Let me start this off! (0:31:24) Al: Kevin! (0:31:24) Al: So, Concern Date, like just after we recorded the last episode, posted this image on Twitter of, (0:31:33) Al: so have you ever done any Ginger Island stuff in Stardew? That was in the most recent update. (0:31:39) Al: I haven’t either, but I know that on Ginger Island, there’s a bunch of like parrots that you can use to unlock a bunch of stuff. And then, so this is an image of a parrot that is like (0:31:53) Al: JoJo branding, JoJo? JoJo? Is it JoJo? JoJo, sorry, JoJo, the JoJo branding on it. And so I’m like, (0:31:56) Kevin: Jojo, not Jojo. (0:32:01) Al: oh, interesting. Is this like another like JoJo based thing? How does this work? It’s going to be interesting to see what this is, presumably it’s on Ginger Island, or it’s in a new place that we don’t know about, something like that. And then, Concern Date just like posts a list of the features coming up in the next update. (0:32:23) Al: And you’re like, “Oh, okay.” Which includes one of the bullet points is Georgia alternatives to some of the endgame quests. (0:32:32) Al: So what I’m guessing is if you go the Georgia route for the community center, when you go to Ginger Island, all the parrots are Georgia parrots. (0:32:39) Kevin: Yup. (0:32:40) Kevin: Yup. (0:32:44) Kevin: Aw, sick. (0:32:46) Kevin: You’re gonna… (0:32:47) Kevin: Deforest that island and put on a Joja Mart there. (0:32:51) Al: I mean, I actually, I mean, I really enjoy doing the Georgia way of doing things, purely because it’s like, I like being able to just like, be a filthy capitalist, right? And just buy everything, right? Like, I’m just going to make so much money and just buy everything I need, right? Like, that’s fun to do. I obviously, I’ve only done it once, but it was fun to do it when I did it. Like, obviously, I enjoy doing the other way. (0:33:17) Kevin: - Yeah. (0:33:21) Al: But, you know, there’s a lot of my words, right? (0:33:26) Al: Okay, so let me just, let me just, well, let’s just go through this list and see if we have anything to say about them. How does that go? Because this is a lot of stuff coming in the new update. And I feel like, yeah, can we talk about this? Can we talk about this? Because, like, when Concern Date initially announced the 1.6 update, let me actually find the tweet. Because I’m sure and I can find it because he doesn’t tweet very much. (0:33:28) Kevin: Okay. (0:33:33) Kevin: Shock or… (0:33:35) Kevin: Cornsturn Day has a big update. laughs (0:33:49) Kevin: It’s also really short, like two sentences. (0:33:53) Kevin: Update coming, no release date. (0:33:54) Al: Okay, so what he said in his first tweet about 1.6 which was “April of this year” okay? (0:34:06) Al: Five months ago he said “There is going to be a StarJ 1.6 update. (0:34:10) Al: It’s mostly changes for modders, which will make it easier and more powerful to mod, but there is also new game content, albeit much less than 1.5.” (0:34:22) Kevin: This- Look, it is much less for a concerned ape by his scape metrics. (0:34:22) Al: Now look at this list. (0:34:24) Al: We have one new major festival, and two mini festivals. (0:34:36) Kevin: Wow, mini, okay! (0:34:37) Al: Right, so that’s just three festivals, right? (0:34:42) Al: Let’s not list it. (0:34:43) Al: You just added three new festivals in this update. (0:34:45) Al: He has added new late game content which expands on each of the skill areas. (0:34:50) Kevin: There’s a lot of skills in this game, so that’s the… (0:34:51) Al: There’s a lot of skills in this game. (0:34:54) Al: New items and crafting recipes. Sure, fine. We don’t know much about that. One of them looks to be a drink. One of them looks to be another warp totem. One is either golf clubs or a bag of worms. (0:35:04) Al: I don’t know. I can’t tell. Oh, could be. Oh, interesting. Is that… I wonder if that would… (0:35:06) Kevin: Quiver arrow arrow quiver Weapon new weapon I could see that (0:35:14) Al: Well, you can… There is no bow and arrow, isn’t there? There’s just… There’s the… (0:35:18) Al: The… What’s it called? The little… The little… The little kind of… What’s Bart Simpson’s thing? (0:35:19) Kevin: And this last I checked, slingshot. (0:35:23) Al: you know the like slingshot. (0:35:24) Al: Interesting arrow. I wonder how much of this is come from like stuff he’s adding into haunted chocolate here and going actually I want to add that into Stardew Valley. (0:35:33) Kevin: Other way around he’s it just adding haunted chocolates here in the Stardew I made the joke on the slack. It’s to start a 2.0 actually (0:35:34) Al: I mean I actually wouldn’t be surprised if he ended up adding if haunted chocolate here was a DLC yes and then we’ve got like I mean honestly I would not be surprised if haunted chocolate here ends up being DLC for Stardew Valley like we’ll all buy it and we’ll all love it. (0:35:54) Al: A hundred plus new lines of dialogue. (0:35:55) Kevin: Yep. (0:35:55) Kevin: That’s a lot of dialogue. (0:35:58) Al: Georgia alternatives to some of the end game quests. (0:36:01) Al: That’s what we’ve already talked about. (0:36:03) Al: Winter outfits for the villain. (0:36:05) Al: Winter outfits for the villagers. (0:36:07) Al: That’s all of the villagers are getting winter outfits. (0:36:09) Al: Now, one could say they should have already been there. (0:36:12) Al: That’s fair enough. (0:36:13) Al: But like that’s not a small thing to add, right? (0:36:17) Kevin: Sure, yes, right. (0:36:17) Al: Unique clothes for every single villager in the game. (0:36:21) Al: New type of reward for completing billboard accrues. (0:36:24) Al: Adding in support for 8 player multiplayer on PC. (0:36:29) Kevin: Oh nothing nothing big there. It’s just a player multiplayer They only on PC to be clear What is left to fall it’s a new farm that specializes in chocolate actually (0:36:30) Al: Just doubling the number of people that can play the game at once. (0:36:36) Al: A new farm! Another new farm! (0:36:42) Al: I don’t… (0:36:51) Al: I just, like, you could say this was small. (0:36:54) Al: If you want, I think you’re talking nonsense, right? (0:36:57) Kevin: I genuinely believe Concerned Ape thinks this is small. (0:36:58) Al: Like… (0:36:58) Al: Oh, I’m sure he does! (0:37:04) Al: I think he’s talking nonsense though. (0:37:06) Al: Like, this is not a small update. (0:37:08) Al: Yeah. (0:37:08) Kevin: And of course, he has the new secrets and more at the end, meaning there’s who knows what else. (0:37:14) Al: Yep. (0:37:16) Al: Do you know, I think he keeps doing this because it just keeps getting people back into the game because now I want to play stardom. (0:37:17) Kevin: It’s a blank check. (0:37:24) Al: So yeah, there’s a lot of stardom stuff coming. He says there’s no date for 1.6 yet and I believe him. (0:37:29) Kevin: Maybe. I mean, there’s winter outfits for you to celebrate. (0:37:39) Al: Well that’s exactly what’s going to happen right? Well for PC anyway, it’ll take a while for consoles but yeah, that’s going to be like “oh yeah, game’s out now”. (0:37:42) Kevin: Yeah, it’ll just look knowing him. It’s just he’s gonna have a tweet. So it’s out. That’s it Yeah (0:37:50) Al: But yeah, that’s going to be like, “Oh yeah, game’s out now.” (0:37:53) Al: You’re like, “Sorry, what?” (0:37:54) Al: There’ll be somebody who will load up Steam the moment it gets updated, (0:38:01) Al: and Concerned Date won’t have tweeted about it yet. (0:38:03) Al: Someone will be like, “Oh, he’s updated the game,” and then Concerned Date will announce it by retweeting that person’s tweet. It’s like, “Oh man, you don’t have to keep giving us this stuff for free right like I know I know we made a lot of money with stargy (0:38:04) Kevin: Oh, oh, oh, absolutely. (0:38:25) Al: right I know i’m sure he is but I mean you know dude’s working dude’s got to get paid like i’m just i’m sure he is (0:38:25) Kevin: I think he still is. (0:38:36) Kevin: I’m I’m not concerned about that. I’m sure he’s making good money Like you said like you said this every time he does this the new one point whatever number That’s that’s that’s sales. That’s absolutely sales Just you watch to just just you way you will eat (0:38:51) Al: I think I already own the game on everything. I don’t think I can buy it again. (0:38:55) Al: I just can’t decide what to play the game on again. Like, do I just continue on Switch? (0:39:03) Al: Do I play it on Steam Deck? Because the update’s probably going to come to Steam first. (0:39:09) Kevin: I don’t know. Well, I mean, yeah, it’s kind of just the first I don’t know. (0:39:09) Al: How good’s the controller I support on Steam? (0:39:19) Al: It was fine. (0:39:23) Kevin: I would like to see when (0:39:27) Al: Crazy. I’m presuming the new farm is to do with that, right? Like instead of four corners, it’s in eight corners. (0:39:33) Al: It does have full controller support on Steam. He did also say in his Steam update, (0:39:44) Al: which is different from the Tweet, he says, “I have no release date for it yet, but it will release it as soon as it’s ready. The content is pretty close to being finished, but then there will (0:39:59) Kevin: Yeah, because he’s on everything now, that tail end of development is a bit, it’s a, it’s a- (0:40:09) Al: Maybe I need to start soon so that I can actually get done with the 1.5 stuff. (0:40:13) Kevin: There you go, yeah, there you go. (0:40:16) Kevin: Look, okay, you’re debating where, here’s what you do. (0:40:18) Kevin: You have one on Switch, one on Steam Deck, (0:40:21) Kevin: one of them is the Jojo Route, one is not. (0:40:23) Kevin: There you go, problem solved. (0:40:28) Kevin: You know, look at that parrot, (0:40:31) Kevin: it’s on a stand with the J on it. (0:40:34) Kevin: You won’t get that if you don’t do Jojo Route. (0:40:41) Kevin: It’s a self-concerned game, not me! (0:40:45) Al: Also, we’ll see whether 1.7 happens or not. (0:40:48) Kevin: Oh, it… it… like… I… (0:40:49) Al: He’s only mentioned 1.7 once and that was in answer to a question as to whether there would be a 1.7 and he said, “Who knows?” (0:40:59) Kevin: I made- again I made the joke on Slack but this is almost as serious as it is a joke. (0:41:05) Kevin: It will outlive a lot of things. (0:41:08) Kevin: These Stardew updates. (0:41:09) Al: I feel like he said 1.5 was the last one, so he kind of already has failed at stopping. (0:41:11) Kevin: This man cannot stop. He’s just one of those people. (0:41:20) Al: Anyway, right, the other big news that we’ve got to talk about. (0:41:24) Al: Oh, so, Tales of the Shire. (0:41:24) Kevin: Something else that won’t stop, Lord of the Rings! (0:41:31) Al: Now, for some reason, and I think we all know the reason, the answer to that, the reason is money, right? (0:41:36) Kevin: money. (0:41:39) Al: But for some money-related reason, Lord of the Rings is making a cottagecore game based in the Shire. (0:41:49) Al: And that’s how you get the best of your own. (0:41:49) Al: I’m not. (0:41:50) Al: We know at this point. What I will say, what I will say is interesting. Weta Workshop are, (0:41:57) Al: it says to, it’s, what’s the other company? Sorry, I’m just trying to look at this again, (0:42:03) Al: because it, so Private Division, I don’t know who they are, but I know that Weta Workshop made physical props for the films. (0:42:17) Kevin: If you that trailer looks like it was filled not the set like I mean it’s a very short trailer just shows the book basically but like it you can see from that one shot like there’s a lot of love for Lord of the Rings here I am very confident that this will be a very good and Lord of the Rings. (0:42:20) Al: Yeah. (0:42:39) Kevin: Well actually actually I’m thinking about this now it’s all in the shire right like there’s a lot of important. (0:42:45) Al: Yes. (0:42:46) Al: Yes. (0:42:47) Kevin: The Lord of the Rings stuff not in the shire and how much of that is going to leak into here can you romance or on. (0:42:51) Al: Well, I’m presuming some people are coming to visit, right? (0:42:56) Al: No. (0:42:58) Kevin: I. (0:43:01) Al: So, games, the private division have worked on or with Hades. (0:43:12) Al: They worked with Supergiant Games on Hades. (0:43:13) Kevin: Oh. Oh boy. (0:43:16) Al: Ollie Ollie World. (0:43:17) Al: Skateboarding game. It’s very good. (0:43:22) Kevin: Okay, oh That’s a that’s a good one Good heavens these this is the good resume (0:43:24) Al: The Outer Worlds. (0:43:25) Al: Kerbal Space Program Enhanced Edition. (0:43:31) Al: And they’re making Tales of the Shire with Weta Workshop. (0:43:38) Al: Well, the interesting thing is, the point is, Weta Workshop have done Lord of the Rings stuff. (0:43:44) Al: Like they are, they did physically. (0:43:45) Al: This is supposed weird, they made physical, they’re not a game developer. (0:43:50) Al: They are so, so, so there we go. (0:43:51) Kevin: No, but they’re Lord of the Rings people. (0:43:54) Kevin: That’s what private division is for. (0:43:56) Kevin: They’re Lord of the… Yeah. (0:43:58) Kevin: Yeah, to be clear… (0:43:58) Al: Well, so it looks like Private Division are a publisher, not a developer. (0:44:01) Kevin: Oh, well, well, look. (0:44:03) Al: That’s fine. (0:44:04) Al: So they’re not, they are, that is correct. (0:44:05) Kevin: Weta Workshop is from New Zealand, I believe, if I’m not mistaken. (0:44:09) Kevin: Okay, well, New Zealand, I… (0:44:12) Kevin: I say somewhat jokingly, somewhat seriously. (0:44:15) Kevin: There is an appreciable amount of their GDP That is from Lord of the Rings! (0:44:21) Kevin: I am confident this will get the love and attention it deserves. (0:44:21) Al: I’m just, I am just fascinating. (0:44:26) Kevin: And it’s a lot of the rings, man. (0:44:35) Kevin: Well… (0:44:36) Al: Look, this is going to be dangerous, right? Because I love Lord of the Rings and I love Kochiko Games. I’m really worried about this. (0:44:37) Kevin: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. (0:44:44) Kevin: I think the expression of “I just want to be a hobbit” in the last video is… (0:44:51) Kevin: A little shire is a very common sentiment among people in general. (0:45:04) Al: 2024 to PC and console. I don’t think they’ve said (0:45:12) Kevin: I like how we’re excited, we have no idea what it’s gonna be like, like, no! (0:45:14) Al: It doesn’t matter, we know, we know what, like I, I trust that this will be good. (0:45:17) Kevin: Oh, I do too? No, I fully agree, I just, I just think it’s funny, like, that’s how confident we are in this project. (0:45:25) Al: Yeah. Yeah. (0:45:28) Kevin: That we don’t need any details, we’re gonna get it, and it’s gonna be good, and… (0:45:28) Al: I mean, that trailer looked good. (0:45:33) Kevin: You alright? There you go. (0:45:36) Al: So, yeah. (0:45:37) Al: Hopefully, we’ll find out soon. (0:45:42) Al: I sincerely hope so. (0:45:43) Kevin: can you have second breakfast argue right right okay okay yes yes all right (0:45:48) Al: Oh, shall we talk about Meneko’s Nightmark? (0:45:59) Al: I realised I hadn’t actually written down what things were going to talk about, so I’m just like frantically thinking up things. (0:46:06) Kevin: Well, as always, let’s start with the context of where we’re coming from. (0:46:13) Kevin: As you said earlier, you’re playing on Steam Deck, I’m playing on Switch, I’m interested to hear the comparison there. (0:46:21) Kevin: What are your overall thoughts, opinions? (0:46:25) Al: Yes, I like this game. I have some comments on things I would improve. (0:46:37) Kevin: There are definitely issues… small, like… (0:46:39) Al: Well, small in so much as like, it depends how you define a small. So one of the things I have noticed is that every loading screen is very long. (0:46:53) Kevin: Okay, I okay. Are we just gonna get into this like the bad because like All right. All right. Okay. I was yes loading This is probably the number one big issue loading times are Atrocious like I thought I was wondering if it was just a switch port, but okay, so it’s not okay Okay, I want to My very first thought about this game when I played it (0:46:55) Al: Let’s just go for it. Let’s get the bad out of the way so we can talk about the good, right? Let’s let’s go for it. (0:47:02) Al: Yeah. Yeah. (0:47:09) Al: It is not. It is the same on Steam Deck. (0:47:23) Kevin: So when you started you get the loading screen and it’s like mineko running in the corner but there’s no music or anything and I Genuinely thought my game had frozen as I soon as I’d started cuz the necker stopped moving [laughing] (0:47:28) Al: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there’s something weird in terms of like, there, (0:47:44) Al: cause yeah, there’s some freezes and stuff as well, which sometimes can be a bit stressful. (0:47:46) Kevin: Yep. (0:47:47) Al: We are like, Oh no, have I lost my day? No, I haven’t. I have not lost any data. Um, (0:47:48) Kevin: Ee-eesh. (0:47:49) Kevin: Yeah. (0:47:55) Al: That’s not true, there was one, what happened? (0:47:58) Al: I can’t remember, there was one case where I had to restart and I lost the day, (0:48:01) Al: and I can’t remember what that was. Did I write it in Slack? (0:48:04) Al: Oh yes, no, I remember, I remember, I remember, there’s a button on the controller remapping where you can click it and it deletes all of your mapping so you can’t do anything with the game. (0:48:04) Kevin: I don’t… I mean, yeah… (0:48:08) Kevin: See, okay, my… oh, okay, so… (0:48:11) Kevin: Yeah. (0:48:15) Kevin: Yes. (0:48:19) Al: So if you click that button, which annoyingly the button is labeled default, so I can– (0:48:21) Kevin: Oh my god, are you see… (0:48:28) Al: I kind of thought that would set it to the default, right? (0:48:30) Al: Because I’d changed a few things and I was like, “All right, well, let me reset it to the default.” (0:48:34) Al: But the default is nothing. (0:48:34) Kevin: Ohhh… (0:48:36) Al: But the problem is then, I have no controls. Nothing worked. (0:48:36) Kevin: Ohhh yeah! (0:48:40) Al: So thankfully, it didn’t autosave, right? (0:48:42) Kevin: Yes, witches! (0:

In this episode, Andy chats with Kevin Williams an expert in ChatGPT and A.I. ========== References: www.SprinklerNerd.com/inkworks www.InkWorks.ai ========== Kevin: You know, it's not going to be AI that replaces you as the employee or, or supplants you, your company. It's going to be a company that knows how to use AI or a person who knows how to use AI that's going to disrupt things. Andy: Hello my friends. This is Andy. Welcome to episode 129. Of the Sprinkler Nerd Show, where it's my job to speak with world-class water and technology innovators from all walks of life so that it may inspire you and your business. My guest today is Kevin Williams. Who is Kevin Williams? Kevin has been featured in Inc.Magazine, The Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, and even as a Shark Tank business. Before starting his current company, www.inkworks.ai, Kevin was the former operating partner and CEO of www.balls.co. And before that, Kevin was the founder and CEO of Brush Hero, which is the product you may have seen on shark tank. Our conversation today will be focused on AI tools like Chat GPT, and how you can implement these tools in your business. So with that, Kevin, welcome to the show.  Kevin: Thanks so much for having me, Andy.  Andy: I cannot wait to talk about AI and how service businesses, contractors, irrigators, and landscapers can learn a little bit from you, who has spent a lot of time, uh, really becoming an expert in this field. And I think that before we jump into that, I'd like to ask how you got your start in business and as an entrepreneur.  Kevin: It's, it's funny. I actually come from a family of entrepreneurs ever since I was about 10 or 12. My family was traveling all over the country with various business ideas and it was just part of the fabric of my life. Kevin: Sadly, that story doesn't actually end particularly well. So sometimes I, I, I glib about it that I come from a family of failed entrepreneurs because in a period in my adolescence, my parents lost their business, they lost their house. They lost their marriage, like all of this horrible stuff. So young Kevin decides that a good idea is to not be an entrepreneur and instead go be a chemist. Kevin: Well, fates have a way of, uh, of messing with plans like that. Um, I went on the straight and narrow path. I did a bunch of interesting stuff and I ended up at pretty good business school. And in business school, I entered a business plan competition just as a part of a, like an elective entrepreneurship class. Kevin: And I won. And I won a bunch of money that came along with it for seed funding. Um, so I ended up starting my first business having done everything in my power not to be an entrepreneur. I was like, oh heck, here's an opportunity. I'm just going to take a left turn in my life and chase this now. Um, that business didn't necessarily go anywhere, but it introduced me to the angel and venture community in my town in Washington DC and uh I ended up operating businesses for a high net worth, uh, individuals for a bunch of years and my own entrepreneurial journey kicked in again, where I saw that there was just so much waste in a lot of startup companies that people really didn't know how to demonstrate. Kevin: What we marketers would call product market fit, and instead they just dump bucket loads of money into things trying to prove a concept. Uh, and when I saw the rise of social media, I saw an opportunity to rapidly test concepts, um, without necessarily spending a lot of money. And that pivoted into a whole series of businesses where I would either license or buy intellectual property. Kevin: And my dirty little secret was that when a patent was pitched to me, I could go out onto social media and test some concept around that product. I could throw a bunch of traffic at it, see if anybody cared. If people cared about the idea, then I would license the patent and then I would already know that I could get on to first base with the product. Kevin: Was it going to be a home run? Who knows, but I could get on to first base. So that led to the Brush Hero product, which I had licensed. I'd licensed the underlying IP from a gentleman in the UK, um, and several other patents in homewares and kitchenwares. Uh, I sold, um, or I, yeah, I exited Brush Hero in about 2019. Kevin: And, um, then I ended up running, uh, a large international brand. Usually I don't say, but yes, it was Balls. co.  Andy: Fuck it, you can say it on this channel, on this show.  Kevin: Yes, I was a manscaper. Um, so Balls was the largest, uh, manscaping company in Europe. Uh, you can probably already tell I'm not the guy who tells Balls jokes all day. Kevin: So it was, it was pretty fun to dive into a brand like that. British sensibility, really cheeky humor. And, um, our goal was to drive it into, uh, the U S with that sort of humor. Um, the realities of running a UK European based business from the West coast of the U S not so great. A lot of early mornings, a lot of late nights. Kevin: So, mm-hmm. , in part when I saw just the I I, I, I like to think that I immediately saw the opportunities that generative AI would represent when G P T launched in November of last year, and I left and dove feet first into generative AI and practical applications of it. Um, And I've been rooting around for business models in my M. Kevin: O. You know, test some ideas, test a lot of different things, um, to see what might take root. And from there, ink works is one of several different products, projects that I'm working on, um, as well as doing executive coaching and executive coaching oriented around a I capacity development within organizations. Kevin: Because one challenge of all of this Is that coming up with a one size fits all solution just isn't practical. So business leaders need to develop a framework around the way that they think about AI and how they're going to safely lever it in their business. Um, as opposed to just looking for a magic bullet type. Kevin: Platform that they can just buy. That's going to solve all of their problems. Um, that's going to be very interesting to, to, to see how that develops. And it's been fun to, to, to work with other business leaders to try and identify how their particular business, be it, you know, in landscaping or direct consumer or. Kevin: Business to business SAS type stuff. Well, how can they actually deploy this stuff right away to make changes in their business? Because, you know, the, the adage has become. You know, it's not going to be AI that, that replaces you as the employee or, or supplants you, your company. It's going to be a company that knows how to use AI or a person who knows how to use AI that's going to disrupt things. Andy: I love that. So there's a couple takeaways. I'm going to start with the last thing you said, because it reminds me of a great expression that I can't remember who the author is, but I use it all the time. And that is the company that kills you will look nothing like you. So when you said AI may not replace the person, it's going to be a company that knows how to use AI that becomes your competitor. Andy: That's a great example of another company that It looks nothing like you, but could end up killing your business and you were running balls. co and this is not the right time to talk about balls. co, but we don't actually talk about a lot of balls in this industry. We do talk about a lot of nipples though. Andy: There are many different types of nipples in the irrigation industry, believe it or not. So I'm just going to, I'm just going to put that out there inside joke for those that are listening. We don't talk about balls, but we like to talk about nipples, talk about  Kevin: turf.  Andy: And turf. Yep. Totally. You can talk about turf. Andy: There's a lot to, a lot to play with there. Not last week. It's been probably three weeks now. Kevin and I both went to a conference. I would say that's just for shark tank companies, just for those who have. been on Shark Tank, whether it aired or whether it was just taped, because we know that most of the businesses that tape don't actually go to air. Andy: So we were both at the conference, and that's when I was learning about what you were doing in the AI space, because Kevin was actually presenting at the conference. And I thought this would be great, Kevin, to have you come and share some of your Uh, real practical world experience with AI, you know, and how you are coaching people to use it, some of the value that it has, and maybe even some of the best practices or things you should do first, second, third, or even how do you optimize the responses of, let's say, chat GPT versus a beginner that just goes in and asks it a basic question. Andy: So very, very excited, and especially because this industry is tends to lag behind.  Kevin: So first, just to back up, I we were sort of operating on the assumption that everybody knows what this is, and I'm pretty sure everybody has at least heard of it at this point. That is this magic machine that can that you can talk to, and it can it can come up with responses. Kevin: Um, but it is actually a success story. That's it's one of those overnight successes. That's eight years in the making that billions and billions of dollars has been poured into what are called neural networks that allow So Uh, highly abstract patterns to to interact with each other such that the magic machine can output based on a predictive model. Kevin: What might come next from a thought? So that's essentially what it's doing. It's predicting from the sum of the human Internet knowledge. What? The next likely thought can be, and it is absolutely amazing what it can do, but the underlying fundamentals of neural networks have been around for a long time. Kevin: The novelty and what was just completely mind blowing for most of us was the Interaction, the interactive effect. Like if you leave a bunch of wonky people together who are studying neural networks, they know how neural networks work. They don't need this chat functionality. What the chat functionality did is it made it much more accessible for we mere mortals to be able to lever these tools, um, on on even on a basic level, as opposed to going through a whole machine learning type process. Kevin: So These are predictive models. They're taking the sum of human knowledge and they are outputting the next likely. So the first thing to understand about them is that They don't necessarily know or care if anything is particularly accurate. So, this is what you hear about in terms of hallucinations. And hallucinations are just wrong facts. Kevin: Like, the AI is not particularly good with facts. It's very good at expressing A dubious fact in a very convincing way, which should be a giant red flag for most of us who produce any sort of content that particularly in a subject matter that's relatively technical like what you guys are talking about, um, it could easily. Kevin: It could easily just lie to you. So the first thing that I tell people from a, from a mindset perspective is that you need to calibrate what you're doing with the AI based on who you are and what you know, so picture like a Venn diagram, you've got this. One circle, that's the size of my house, that is the sum total of human knowledge. Kevin: And then you have this intersecting circle that's much smaller, which is the sum total of who you are and what you know and what you know about irrigation and, uh, and lawn care and everything else. Right? And the intersection of those two circles is where the power really lies. So If you, the farther you drift away from that, the more likely you are to get into dangerous territory. Kevin: So, I know a lot about digital marketing. I know a lot about business operations and such. That is a core of who I am. But, if I drift away and I start talking with the AI about neuropsychology, I might get interesting results, but I have no way of calibrating whether or not those results are actually useful or, or practical or not. Kevin: I'm just leaving it to the AI. So when you say  Andy: calibrate, what does, what does that mean? What does calibrate mean? So  Kevin: it's you know what you know. So imagine, you know, most of us have have businesses that are large enough that you have developing staff like there. There are other people that are involved in the business and you you take, let's just say a new sales guy and You, The way If you're the senior sales guy or you're the business owner, you might tell the sales guy to go off and do X, Y, and Z. Kevin: And then you're going to look at the output and you're going to, you're going to coach them, you're going to push them towards an output that you know is going to work in because you have this expertise in the knowledge. It's the same as true for the AI. The AI doesn't necessarily know what it's talking about, but if you were to look at the output. Kevin: Your art as a business person and just as an individual is being able to identify the value in that output. And if it's something you don't know anything about, that's going to be really hard to do. So if you're, if you're looking at, at creating something that's entirely new that you don't know anything about, there are ways to use AI that you can do that. Kevin: But it's not as effective as Amplifying things that you already do know. So in a lot of organizations, let's just take a lawyer, for example, like you could you could call a lawyer and say, Hey, I need to set up a trust document and whatever. And right now the M. O. would be that lawyer would probably record the call or take notes on the call. Kevin: They would go to their associate. Their associate would look through their templates about it. Trust. They'd adapt it to Wyoming. They put it back to the senior attorney who would then approve it, edit it, give it red lines, hand it back to the guy or gal and then process it and then finalize it and then send it out because that senior attorney really knows their stuff or you hope they really know their stuff. Kevin: They can do that. That is their art. That is their job. That is their profession. But now you can bypass all of that, that associates job. Not so good for the associate, right? But you could output that document and be able to read it and have it done in 15 seconds, but you can't abdicate your professionalism and your art. Kevin: You can't just trust it. You're going to get 80% of the way there in 15 seconds, but that last 20% of editing and clarifying and redlining, um, you still own that at least at the moment. So. The lawyer knows a lot about law. The business guy has actually read a ton of contracts, right? Like, I've probably read a thousand contracts in my career. Kevin: I'm not a lawyer. I happen to be married to one. But, I... Not a lawyer, but if I need to create a new contract I can actually get 90% of the way there So let's just say 70% of the way there Because I know how contracts are written right and I can read it and I can interpret Okay, this indemnification clause makes sense to me The smart move is to then send it on to the lawyer, but I didn't have to spend the 500 for him to draft the first version. Kevin: I just need to spend the 250 for him to take a pass at it at the other side, because I know enough to be dangerous. Now, if it were to get into case law, statutes, regulations, things like that, it could easily lie to you, and that's out of my realm. Like the lawyer might recognize that that case isn't a real case or that that statute isn't accurate, but dang, if the AI isn't going to be very, very compelling in its, it's sort of its defense of its own facts that it's putting forward, but that's the. Andy: So, so would it be. Would it be safe to say that an attorney who uses Chet GPT, if Chet GPT or the AI can do the 70% as you describe, but because they're the expert in that field, they can review that 30% and get it right. So that if it's lying, they can correct it because they have the expert knowledge in that core business. Kevin: Exactly, exactly. And this is where I like to focus when I'm talking to people about it. There's a lot of water is wet out there. Oh, you can just. Have it write a giant blog post for you. Okay. That's cool. You know, it's cool to watch it do its output. It's like, it's sort of mind blowing if you haven't seen it by all means, totally go sign up and see that because it's really cool, but that doesn't allow you to abdicate from your art and your expertise. Kevin: So, you know, your audience knows a lot about lawn care and it like, like you can have it create a blog post about certain patterns of irrigation and you're going to be able to decide whether or not those are accurate or not. But if you want to reach into topics that you don't know much about, even if they're close to you, you can. Kevin: But you have to have either some sort of validation mechanism such that you can determine whether it's accurate or not, um, or not care, so. Because  Andy: then if somebody who is an expert in that category reads it, they may think, Oh my gosh, what is Kevin talking about here? He doesn't know what he's talking about. Andy: This is not accurate.  Kevin: Exactly. Like imagine, you know, I, as I understand it, that, uh, you know, grass varietals change by different continents and there's expertise in South America and they're, you know, sprinkler nerds in South America and like you pontificating about, you know, Argentine varieties of. Kevin: Bermuda grass, like that person is going to be able to smell a rat because that's their, their expertise. And worse, this is sort of meta as there's an industrial scale opportunity for content production. If all of us. I'm not going to get noble about this, but like if all of us are out there producing bad content, the AIs will be trained on the bad content. Kevin: So there is going to be value. Is that the  Andy: garbage in garbage out analogy? Yes.  Kevin: Garbage in garbage out. And at some point it all reverts to the mean. So from the segment of your audience that is out there and doing direct to consumer type marketing, don't be, don't be tempted to do just. Industrial scale output. Kevin: Your art has to be producing new information from somewhere. But what AI can do is it can make some of that new information really accessible. Like there's a lot of geeky in this sort of field, right? And there's scholarly articles about soil density and all this other stuff. One really cool use of AI is to be able to contextualize something like a scholarly document and make it accessible to people who have expertise that can do something interesting to it. Kevin: So, you know, somebody comes out with a paper from the university of Florida, as far as water absorption rates, whatever it is, and you can then use the AI to simplify that overly complicated document to a way that it falls into that zone of expertise and art. And then you can actually. Add to the corpus of information that's out there on the web in an additive way because that paper was never really going to get found. Kevin: It was somebody's PhD thesis or whatever. But now you Andy can like actually make that accessible in a way that increases the store of human knowledge and from a Strategic perspective, I do suspect that, that, that brands, particularly in the internet who can truly add novel value are going to be rewarded by search engines, by advertising platforms, et cetera, and that those who simply put it out like high volume garbage are going to get severely punished. Kevin: And, and I'm  Andy: thinking that likely the level one knowledge. Which may address the most frequently asked questions about lawn care on the internet will probably be garbage in garbage out and stuff that everybody talks about. I love what you said about finding a scholarly article and what came to my mind is that there actually are scholarly articles from, I believe, University of Florida on, you know, lawn care and let's say soil moisture sensor technology. Andy: And my question would be, number one, Perhaps this would be a great training example for us to do live like, Hey, let's grab a couple articles and use that to produce some really awesome content using AI. And could we do that? You know, could we take an article of a research on soil moisture sensor, not right now about soil moisture sensor technology, real case studies and recreate it in a, in a, in a way that everybody could understand it simplified, but on a deep topic  Kevin: like that. Kevin: So this is, let's walk through the practical example. The example is yes, that would be really cool, right? So first you're going to find the article and then let's just be practical. First, if you're not paying for GPT, pay for it. It's 20 bucks a month and it gives you access to GPT 4, but more importantly, it gives you advanced access to advanced processing. Kevin: So the, the 3. 5 was the first model 4. 0 is where it is now. 4. 0 is roughly 10 times. It's more powerful as far as the level of connections. It's also slower, um, which can be a little bit agonizing in a demo because it writes really slowly. Um, but it allows you to contextualize. These are, these are all terms that are going to be so common in the next few years, but right now we're all kind of bending our heads around it that you have to set context. Kevin: Like, uh, I like this particular example, like you go, you stand at the top of a, of a building at, uh, you know, Times Square, you stand in the middle of Times Square and you say, what should I read? And people are going to have all kinds of opinions. They're going to have like, Oh, you should read the Bible. Kevin: You should read, you know, Tom Clancy. You should read, you know, the, the sprinkler digest of 2022. The Idiot's Guide to Landscaping. But that's because, yes, of course, you know, scintillating reading, right? But that's because nobody knows anything about you. So one of the first keys here is you have to set the context of the conversation such that you're narrowing, you're narrowing what you're after. Kevin: So from a practical perspective in GPT 4, you can start out a conversation by saying, I'm a landscaping expert. Um, I'm interested in expanding my knowledge of lawn care practices using scholarly articles. And it's going to say something like, yay. Next you set the context for the conversation because you could just. Kevin: Continue. And this is where it gets dangerous. Like, let's just chat about lawn care. And you're going to come up with all kinds of interesting stuff. In the back and forth that it's, it's, as you're, you're expanding. It knows who you are. It kind of knows what you're looking for. But now, you want to refine that context further. Kevin: And the way that you do that is by contextualizing something like a scholarly article. And there are tools, they're called plug ins within GPT 4, that allow you to do that. And that's simply by Letting it ingest the PDF, and now this is what we're talking about. We're not talking about the body of the knowledge, of world knowledge about lawn care. Kevin: We now have established minimal context that you have expertise in lawn care, and now specifically what we're going to talk about is this scholarly article. Like, use, oh mighty GPT, use your chat based functionality to make this easy, but this is what we're talking about. So now you've set the context for it. Kevin: And you're going to do something like, let's ask for a summary, um, that would be applicable and interesting information for an audience that is focused in on lawn care science. And it's going to come up with a bunch of ideas. Okay, cool. Now. Let's say, oh, okay, I like idea number three, that, um, you know, I don't know, relative humidity and the impact of, uh, water absorption rates on whatever it is. Kevin: Now let's dive into that, and let's put a marketing hat on. Okay, let's produce content, a blog post about this that, that, that incorporates interesting facts from the scholarly, the scholarly doc, document, and dresses it up with a little bit of marketing speak. Okay, cool. Now, because we're a marketer, we need to put headlines on it. Kevin: So let's come up with 10 possible headlines for this. So now you have 10 possible headlines for the article. Now let's get a little bit wonky because this is a scholarly article. Scholarly articles often come along with data sets. Okay. So you could actually ingest a dataset using the, the, the code interpreter function within GPT and say something completely simple, like some giant dataset, and just say, help me visualize the data in this dataset in a few different ways that would be interesting to my audience, my audience. Kevin: Like you've already defined who your audience is, right? It's another cool part. Like it has permanence. Um, So it's remembering  Andy: what you gave it earlier when you said, you know, my audience is homeowners, you know, interested in black, it, it,  Kevin: it, it stores that. So we've, we all, we all, I'm not going to say the name because it'll trigger, but the S device on a, on an Apple, if I were to say the name and I would say, Hey, what's, what's the weather in park city tomorrow? Kevin: It's going to have an answer. And if I simply said, what's the weather on Saturday? It's going to say, what are you talking about? Because it has no permanence to it at all. You have to start over in that conversation. Permanence in GPT is so cool. So just a practical tip. You have chats. that maintain that context. Kevin: And some of my chats are now hundreds of pages along because I'm chatting through specific business models and it knows that that's what we're talking about. It doesn't need to like remind itself. I can go back months later and bring something up and all that context is set and you get much better results once the context is set. Kevin: So what you've done with that. So if you, if you have a  Andy: thought. Or you have another question, but it's really related to some other things you've already asked that you'll instead of starting a new conversation, if that's what it's called, you'll go back to your other one and add it into the dialogue. Andy: Yep,  Kevin: exactly. Just write, don't even need to be like, do you remember what we're talking about? No, of course it remembers what it's talking about. It's a machine, right? Um, but imagine you've put out that blog post and, um, somebody now in the community has some insightful question and you're like, I don't know what the answer is. Kevin: Dump the question in and say, this was a community conversation. Can you, can, can you come up with some sort of, can you help me answer this question? And it's going to use the context of your chat. The conversation you have, it's going to use the document that's been set as context. And it's going to try and answer that question within that much narrower context, um, than just the wild west of the internet. Kevin: So taking it like just taking it to the logical conclusion again, as a marketer, you need visuals. So now we haven't talked about the visual tools at all. I've been very GPT focused and GPT is not the only language model out there. I just, it currently is the strongest, but. In my opinion, but there will be many, there's no real barriers to this except gazillions of dollars, which people like Mark Zuckerberg have. Kevin: So you're gonna see a lot of different models and this is just, it's going, they're all gonna be out there. So people will choose their poison. Do you know,  top  Andy: of mind what a couple other models are that we could share list in the,  Kevin: so Google Bard is quite powerful, and it's not like Google wasn't working on this. Kevin: They missed a tick. They have business model problems with this that are pretty obvious. You know, they make 160 billion a year off of advertising. And what does advertising mean if. Like you get the answer, it's not so great. So they  Andy: also not perusing the internet and clicking lots of times and visiting lots of pages and getting served. Andy: Lots of visuals. We're  Kevin: in that space, right? Yeah. So it's, it's, it's going to be an interesting existential crisis for them. They seem confident about it. So I think they have a plan, but they're constrained. My, my worry is big brands like that get more constrained by reputational impact. We all have heard the stories of the New York times, I think. Kevin: Kevin Roos, um, who like the AI tried to convince him to leave his wife and stuff. Um, like open AI, which is GPT can kind of get away with that with its. I'm a 10 billion startup thing, but Google has to worry about that. So naturally they've limited their model more. So there are all these instructions and there's a term that's, that's, that's. Kevin: It may be permanent, but at the moment, I'm not quite sure it's called a constitution. And it's this idea that there's, there's an operating, we call the, the, the, the, anytime you type something into a LLM, it's a prompt, but there are all these hidden prompts that are behind the scenes. And those hidden prompts are, let  Andy: me catch you right there. Andy: You, you, you mentioned a buzzword that I want to make sure everybody knows you said.  Kevin: Large language model. So a GPT is one of the large language models. Um, Lama from Meta and Facebook is another one. Um, Google has its own that, that underpins BARD. Um, these are all, they've all done the similar thing where they've subsumed. Kevin: The Internet and are making these connections. Um, and then, yeah, that's a GPT is not the generalized term term. It's that it has that has to do with technical language transformation. So GPT is actually a technical term. Yeah. So anytime you put a prompt into these things, that's a set of instructions that the AI is then trying to follow. Kevin: But there's a whole set of hidden prompts behind the scenes that are basically don't be psychotic, like Try not to say like racist stuff. Try not to like incite violence. Like, don't try, don't answer legal questions in a way that could be misleading. Like, it's, it's, it's like this whole giant set of things and, you know, building that constitution into the model, um, the, the, sort of the strength of that constitution ties into, this is slightly wonky, but it ties into the, the, the, how crazy the outputs can be. Kevin: And there's another term in there that's called temperature. So the higher the temperature, the more likely it is to go batshit. That it's going to start making And what does a high  Andy: temperature mean? What,  Kevin: what is that? So it's a, it's like a continuum, like low temperature is cold. Just the facts, man. And stick to the fact Right. Kevin: This is what Okay, I see. High temperature is, we're going to loosen up. That loose that that that neural network and you know, I'm being I'm trying to paraphrase a little bit But like it's gonna loosen up the neural network and allow the network to make kind of wilder connections between things  Andy: Okay, so it's called something that's extremely factual like one plus one is two would that be very very cold  Kevin: not factual So that you got to be super careful like it's pretty okay. Kevin: All right high level of probability that 1 plus 1 is 2, but, but some of these models are very bad at math. Um, because they don't, that's not what they do. They're, they're predicting that one thought follows the golden rule. Okay, we have a lot of information about the golden rule. We, we are really, really comfortable that the golden rule is due unto others, right? Kevin: So that low temperature, it's going to connect this extremely high temperature. It may come up with something like Hmm. Maybe that means something different. Hmm. Let's just like connect things. So it gets creative on its own? It's creative. Don't anthropomorphize, but it's, it's easy to do, but it is, um, it just gets looser in its neural connections and it can be very powerful in terms of being extremely creative. Kevin: There's an example that's, uh, I like that. So a high  Andy: temperature means more creative.  Kevin: Yes. And most of the models by default operate at a relatively low temperature because, That's where the you should leave your life wife and marry me stuff comes in where it starts like It's crazy. Like, don't get me wrong. Kevin: Like, researchers in this space, they anthropomorphize it because it's doing stuff that they don't understand.  Andy: Well, I'm just wondering, um, number one, I'll ask you, and you could answer it now or later, is this, is this regulated? Because if it's high temp and it's super creative, which means it may not be accurate, should there be a disclaimer in the response that must be included if you use the tool? Andy: Because the answer may or may not be correct because it's high temp and where, where do we draw the line? Or is there a line being drawn on telling someone disclosing the use of the tool?  Kevin: So this is where Europe is heading. Europe is heading to a disclosure of AI, and I think we may see something similar. Kevin: To this in the U S at some point, but it's a commons issue. Like that sort of disclosure is only as good as the compliance of the community and the enforcement mechanisms that make that happen. And I have doubts having lived in the digital marketing trends as long as I have that. If there's an edge to be had, people don't have to use these models. Kevin: So that's, we haven't really talked  Andy: about that. And right now I can write a blog post about whatever I want, factual or not. It's up to someone else to actually decide if it's right or not. I don't have to, there's no disclosure I have to put on it currently.  Kevin: And you bury it in your terms anyway, in the bottom of the fine print somewhere. Kevin: Yeah. It's like an affiliate disclosure that, um, it is possible that artificial intelligence was in some way used to construct this particular note, this particular route. Right. So maybe by  Andy: default, someone would have to trust the author, i. e. trust Kevin, trust Andy, trust the author. Then you'll trust the words, but don't trust the words. Andy: All by themselves, unless you trust the source, which is essentially where we're at today anyway.  Kevin: Yep, exactly. Do you trust the source? So authority, you have a lot of authority in this space, because you have such a great community, and you know, there's a lot of energy and output and such. That is why search engines reward you, or I assume reward you for that output. Kevin: Mm hmm. The same will be true in these models that, that, and that's the winners will be those who have a lot of authority and a lot of credibility and that will make it very hard for new entrants to, to batter through. In my opinion, there will always be shenanigans or tactics that are designed to like break through the model and try and get something that to get attention. Kevin: Um, but I think it's going to be a lot harder than it has been with a search engine optimization SEO over the years.  Andy: Let me ask you a quick question. Do you think a service business? Landscape contractor, landscape maintenance, service business, irrigation, you know, they could write an article about, let's say, turf grass management, and they could write that article with the audience being the world, yet that, with the audience being the world, that pool is extremely competitive, which makes me think that they should use That's AI to write something more hyperlocal so that they're found with somebody in their service area, and that's what matters. Andy: It's like lawn care maintenance in Peoria, Illinois, and being the expert there, but not Santa Fe, New Mexico.  Kevin: So I think, would that be the right way to think of it? I think it would. And you and I chatted briefly about Sunday. I mean, that might be a polarizing company in your world, but they do from a sales mechanism. Kevin: They're very, very good about using satellite imagery and sort of loose connections about soil density and soil construction in order to get you into their marketing funnel. And they can do that because they were extremely well funded. And, you know, they, they spent a lot of money trying to figure this out. Kevin: And the fact is there's really nothing right now preventing a Peoria, Illinois provider who knows about soil to be able to output like sort of micro geo content. Based on the information that they have to, to educate the Peoria, Illinois population about the very specific aspects of their soil on a level that someday can never touch because it's just microform. Kevin: They're too  Andy: big, right? Exactly. They're the authority in this particular area based on their experience just in this area, which someone who lives in that area, they would want to hire someone. That knows a thing or two about that specific location.  Kevin: So imagine you have your scholarly article, let's put a few of them in there that are about like how to manage, you know, pH, whatever it is, and then you can put a data set or even even sort of qualitative information. Kevin: Well, I happen to know that Be embarrassed to show you guys my lawn, but the, uh, like I happen to know I'm in a high clay area and like, I don't really know what that means, but like, you, if you feed all of this in, you could come up with a very practical micro guide that's very effective without necessarily having to do the whole lift of, of, of doing the brain dump. Kevin: Of everything, you know, about high clay environments. Um, you could use the AI as your assistant to relatively rapidly output that information. So, I mean, honestly, that's, that's very practical. Like anybody listening to this. If you're that hypothetical Peoria, Illinois, like provider, you should totally do this. Kevin: There's SEO value to that, like as far as having content that, that a local, like long care tips in Peoria, you know, right now you might actually find, if you were to type that in, there are all of the dynamically generated, like SEO articles about there that do that. But that's kind of crap content on the inside. Kevin: If you have authority as somebody who's in that community. Plus, you know, being a professional organization there, plus offering this micro content that's useful to people. You wouldn't have bothered before this. Now you can do it. You can do it this in like a half an hour. Like this is, it's, it's way easier than it, than it would have been. Kevin: And. Is it going to change your business, but is it going to, on the edges, allow you to build out just this, this corpus of credibility that, that in a very SEO sort of way can follow you over the years? Yeah, that's very plausible. Wow, this  Andy: is really hands on. I mean, I think we could, there could be a ton of value in actually doing a live workshop that could be recorded for people to see later, but take similar businesses, i. Andy: e. irrigation, contracting companies that number one, all have to have a website. I'll know exactly the type of work that they do and all know exactly their, who their best customer ideally is create some content, you know, copy pasted onto their blog, you know, know what the traffic is now. And then over. Andy: let's say three, six months, what happens after the end of six months? Could we get a cohort together that becomes like number one ranked in all of their local areas through a quick training demo seminar?  Kevin: There's value in that. I think that'd be  Andy: fun. Wow. Okay. Well, we can't show people actually how to use chat GPT today, but I love how you talked about some of the context because I feel like that's what I've had to learn the most about is not just asking it a simple question, but creating that frame. Andy: Um, and believe it or not, I learned it from my son, who was apparently was taught how to use this in college, and he's a computer science major, and you know, he uses it actually to correct some of his code when it doesn't work, uh, among other things, but he was the one that taught me you got to basically, you know, tell it who it is, what its job is, all those sorts of things to frame it. Andy: Which I had no idea about and I think that a lot of people may use again Just chat GPT and then say, you know, I tried it, but it didn't give me the results. So yeah,  Kevin: I'm done And so let's let's wrap a little bit of truth practical other practical ways that I think that everybody should be using it and cool, it's you know ranging from just dead simple to much more complicated but the Most simple bit is none of us have any excuse to have blank page syndrome again Like, some people are talented content creators. Kevin: A lot of people aren't. I am not. I, I actually can write, but it is an agonizing process for me. I'm not that guy who just can hammer something. And I have blank page syndrome. I sit there, I look at the page, and I kind of play with some words, and I'm like, eh. We  Andy: don't have that. Then your mind starts to hurt, and you'll go, eh, I'll, I'll try it again tomorrow. Andy: And then it's just repeat, repeat, repeat, and you never frickin do it.  Kevin: So now it's like I need to write a letter to X, Y, and Z client, and this is the sort of stuff that it can't contain, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and bam, you've got a draft. And then my art and my effort is spent on revising that draft and personalizing it and putting the me into that draft. Kevin: But I'm already, I've gone from zero to eight, like in 15 seconds or, you know, it's spending a little bit of time. Going back and forth with it working on tone, you know, bringing that down a little bit. So that's one It's just you you don't need blank page syndrome again Like you just start with something and then work them in related is a brainstorming partner is like Trying to isolate good ideas. Kevin: What's a bad omnipotent Personal assistant, um, next to you who knows everything about everything and occasionally lies to you, but they're very enthusiastic about it. So pretty cool to have like this brilliant thing that you can like bounce ideas off of and none of it's perfect, but boy, does it come up with some just interesting things, particularly if you, if it's like come 10 actionable headlines for this topic, like, oh, that's kind of interesting. Kevin: Like, Oh, that's neat. Let's explore this a little bit more. Um, also related. Um, you know, I think a lot of small companies struggle with creative design and creative development and are frankly beholden to a lot of creative like people and agencies out there that charge a lot of money for it. Being able to use this as sort of a creative designer assistant, again, you're not going to get to eight or nine in this case, if you're not already creative, but being able to use it to get to, you know, six, seven, eight, and like maybe script out a video or a piece of content and have an idea of what that's going to take to get it done. Kevin: Oh, you know, what sort of camera angles might I use? And then you walk into the conversation. with that creative partner, and you're way more equipped. You have a good idea of what the storyboard looks like and what it feels like. And then their art is layered on top of that because they don't know your business. Kevin: Like as much as we all love the idea of having a creative agency that knows everything about us, they're busy and they might know something about your business, but you will always know your business better than they will. So if you can kind of skip that phase and get to the, the, the creative production part. Kevin: That can be super, super useful, um, correcting documents, um, or assessing documents rapidly. Just, just being able to absorb information like in your guy's world, like every time a new regulation comes out or if, uh, you know, scholarly articles, if you're a real geek, you know, whatever it is, being able to rapidly ingest that information in a way that, that you just, you have it in your to do list. Kevin: Okay. Like I have family members who love to send me Atlantic articles. Like they're always like. 15 pages long and like, I just can't, I like don't have the bandwidth to read it. So I'll put the article in GPT. I'll summarize it. I'll frame who I am, uh, and like be able to come up with a summary that, uh, that, that, that is appropriate for who I am, that, and then I can decide if I'm going to engage in whatever, wow. Kevin: The first thing  Andy: I think of when you say that is, could we take, let's say the national plumbing code and use it to help understand what the requirements are for irrigators as it relates to the national plumbing code on what you can and can't do and what the laws and regulations are.  Kevin: Theoretically. Yeah, you could. Kevin: Wow. Your art. Don't forget your art. Like, you know, there's a code inspectors, like even you guys probably don't totally know, like, Where that line is, and it would make me a little nervous, um, to do that, but I bet you'd get some pretty meaningful output from it. Um, it would be an interesting test actually. Kevin: And just maybe  Andy: a summary format, like, Hey, can you summarize the national plumbing code and what irrigation companies should know are responsible for, you know, in a  Kevin: summary. So I literally did something like this. It was an OSHA regulation for scissor lift safety. And, um, I put in the OSHA reg and I asked it questions about like, this is not something I was doing as a hobby. Kevin: There's, I have a client who is in this world, just to be clear that I, yeah. You  Andy: weren't just going to rent a, yeah,  Kevin: a lift and go out there. But I was, I was, I was. Clean your windows. About like, you know, I have this situation, like there's a two 20, um, junction right here. Like how far away does the scissor lift need to be? Kevin: And it did an ad, it did a very good job. And I think let's think ahead a little bit. Well, what, like this is all cool. Right. But. Man, this is going to be powerful. Like you imagine that you're an onsite contractor and you've run into X, Y, and Z scenario, like right on your phone, like, Hey, I've run into this. Kevin: You know, there's a T junction of whatever flow rate. And how does this apply to, um, you know, the code of. Peoria, Illinois and flow rates that will yeah, no doubt about it. Right.  Andy: Exactly. So today, uh, we've got something called friction loss, uh, friction loss charts. So those listening likely know what a friction loss chart is. Andy: It'll tell you what the PSI loss is per hundred feet based on a specific flow rate and a specific pipe. And if somebody were out in the field today, it's very hard to have all of those things memorized. It's actually. probably impossible to have them all recalled in your head, but just to be able to ask, ask it, Hey, what's the PSI loss on 2. Andy: 5 inch PVC pipe or a hundred feet. Cause you want to make a change to your design. You need some quick engineering facts.  Kevin: Sounds interesting. That's going to be a thing. It will, it may already be like, that's, this is changing. So, so fast. I mean, I literally was in the middle of the presentation and when Andy and I were in Vegas and a new feature was released in GPT. Kevin: As I refreshed my screen, and I was like, Oh, that's new. Yeah, it's, it's very hard to keep up with. Um, and the possibilities are virtually endless. So, yeah. So what other things? So business businesses, you all have a bunch of customers. You could dump your customer data into it and ask it to visualize it and visualize where the clusters, you know, you have sales staff that are out and they're, they're covering things. Kevin: Um, It's a bit of a lift to do some sort of geographic sales analysis of how effective you're being. But if you dump the data in and you can tell it to visualize, um, where all your customers are, like almost do like word cloud type type. Deals, it'll do that. You can see that, you know, 85022, like you're doing really well in that zip code. Kevin: So kudos to that salesperson. But these other zip codes, you know, they're not, or maybe they have a lot of customers, but revenue is lower. Identify  Andy: opportunities. That was my next thought is I think that. Contractors probably have revenue per customer because that's the account. They may not have profitability per customer because they may not job cost down to that level of detail. Andy: But could you, you know, do what you just said? Say, show me geographically where, you know, a majority of our revenue comes from or where our profit comes from.  Kevin: You absolutely could, and easily, easily you could. Major caveat. You're putting your data out there, and you've got to decide if you care. Um, I have a very practical, uh, attitude about this. Kevin: That... There. The, the LLMs are not in the business of yielding your data, but there is evidence that they are porous at the moment. So if you put highly sensitive data in there that you know, the formula for Coke or something like that, it is possible that the MO model. maybe training itself on that. So if somebody somewhere then asks for the formula for Coke, um, since you've put it in there, it can connect the dots, but we're not talking about,  Andy: so you might not want to disclose the name or the address, but maybe just the zip code. Andy: And that might be good enough. The first column was a zip code.  Kevin: So, but I'm, I'm not too stressed about it. You can turn some of these tracking features off and the training features off. But somebody would have to. Like the data would have to be meaningful, right? That, that, that somebody would be interested in it and like be able to put it together and whatnot. Kevin: So know that and you're going to start to see micro LLMs develop. Um, I don't think in this scale of business so much, but in medium sized businesses, you're going to start to see captive this is just Kevin pontificating, but you're going to start to see captive LLMs such that they are walled. Such that the organization can play with the LLM, but it's not necessarily getting out into the corpus of the world. Andy: I mean, I think it, uh, you're right, is we don't know how the data could be used now, but if, if the engine, if that's what you call it, the, the machine ends up with, if everybody uploads all of their sales data by zip code, then potentially the machine knows where people are spending money on outdoor, you know, services. Andy: So if we had a new, business we wanted to sell into a brand new greenfield market. It's a startup and we could ask it, show me the areas that spend the most on irrigation systems and it could provide that to us. Then we would have a target on how to go sell holiday lights or ponds or landscape lighting or something else, patios. Kevin: Yeah, we could. And it's pulling from all kinds of different data sources as well. So, um, so other practical things. So let's talk about images.  Andy: I was gonna say, um, that's what I wanted to get into next, just briefly, because we are kind of running out of time. But could we talk a little bit about images? Andy: Sure,  Kevin: uh, so In much the same way that the language models can predict what word comes next, image models do the same thing on a pixel level. So they're predicting, based on their neural network, what could actually come out next. And this can allow you to enter prompts, in a similar way as GPT, into a model like MidJourney. Kevin: is, uh, the one that I prefer, but there's also Dolly, uh, stable diffusion. There's a few, a few others that are out there that allow you to visualize things. So here you've done your blog. Um, now you need, uh, an image to go along with the blog. You could go to Getty or one of the other image provider things and find a dude squatting next to a sprinkler. Kevin: Or you could ask the The image generator to come up with, you know, middle aged guy working on a sprinkler in their yard mountains in the background and come up with a plausible image that you can use very, very quickly. That's adapted to what you need on a professional and you and I did  Andy: this. Briefly, like with a five, a five minute, you know, demo. Andy: And I'm, I'm curious, do you still have the copy of that image that we created with  Kevin: AI? Which one that does the discord image? Yeah, I do.  Andy: Yeah. Cause maybe what we could do is if you could email that to me, I will, you know what, I may use it as the cover of this article. I'm not article, but of this podcast, uh, on sprinkler nerds so that you guys can see an example of an AI generated image that Kevin made with me with a couple prompts. Andy: So if we still have it, let's, let's  Kevin: pull it up on my screen. So it's, uh, yeah, cool. Um, so it's, it's like a guy, I think, what's the, what's the prompt? Let me read the prompt. It was, uh, If you're  Andy: listening to this on Apple podcast or Spotify or something to see the cover art, I think you will need to go to this episode on sprinklernerd. Andy: com. That's where you'll see the actual graphic that Kevin's talking about.  Kevin: So the prompt is 30 year old energetic man checking a sprinkler in a deep green lawn. Nikon photorealistic and the trigger there is I'm trying to get it. It knows what a Nikon photorealistic image should look like, so it's not going to be some wild cartoon like, you know, psychedelic type thing. Kevin: It's trying to get it to be as real as possible. And sure enough, there's a guy squatting next to a sprinkler that is pretty well unusable. Now, from a processing perspective, you know, just let's just talk more work a day like you don't know what's going on. I, I've always advised, so I guest lecture on the stuff, um, entrepreneurship in general. Kevin: And I've always told my classes that, you know, you need to know basic Photoshop if you want to be a, a group by base level entrepreneur, because if you're not a creative person, you're going to be beholden to those agencies and it takes a long time, even if you're outsourced. So you're waiting for the student. Kevin: So things like practical things, like I need to remove a background. So, you know, I see Andy's logo behind him. I need, I need a transparency of this logo. Like there's an app for that, that, you know, for basically nothing. You can go to remove BG and it's going to pull out the background or image correction or image resizing. Kevin: And what you're going to see is a lot of these tools are going to be baked into the image processing software, like. Photoshop and Illustrator. Uh, I highly recommend if you're graphically oriented that you check out Adobe Firefly, uh, because it is magic. Like. I want a picture of a deer. Okay, now let's put the deer in an alley. Kevin: Oh, let's make the alley dark and add a sign over this door. And it's just on the fly creating all of this stuff. Which should make any graphic design oriented person tremble in their boots because... The most graphic designers make their, most of their income off of the stupid little stuff. The image correction and things. Kevin: It's not the big creative projects. And you're going to see that's going to be an industry that's going to be highly disrupted as a result of this. But yeah, even  Andy: Canva today is really disruptive, but not nearly what you're talking about. But Canva  Kevin: will implement this stuff too. So you can also do video voiceover. Kevin: I mean, be very afraid about voiceover and deep fake potential. Like we're not going to get political, but the next few years in this country should be very, very interesting. That way it's an election cycle and we're going to see all kinds of crazy stuff. And just to get, you know, philosophical for a second, we're going to end up in a place where you can't trust things and that's not a good place to be at all. Kevin: But just know that you can replicate your own voice in 15 minutes. Like I do a lot of podcasts, my voice is out there. So I had this bit of an epiphany and I called my, you know, 83 year old mother and I said, look, it is entirely possible that somebody could call you with my voice and try and get access to your bank accounts. Kevin: Like. That is actually possible right now and I gave her a safe word, like, you know, if you ever feel weirded out, whether or not it's actually me, um, just ask and, um, you know, we can verify, right? Don't say your safe  Andy: word. Don't say it. Andy: That's a great tip, actually. I think I'll, I'll, uh, with my family, come up with a safe word for all of us in the event that somebody does this. I think that's a really good  Kevin: tip. And it's awful, but people, it's already happening where people will get calls from their kids. I've been kidnapped. You need to send, you know, 10 grand right now. Kevin: Like that is happening. Now the positive side is like you're very soon you're going to have the ability to have these virtual customer service agents that can actually talk to people. Um, it's also terrifying, but. Like that's, let's just stay on the positive, right? That these are, these are, these, we are going to be able to offer such a personalized experience to our customers that we are going to just be able to blow them away. Kevin: Like when you, right now you're busy, you're running around, you got all your crews, you maybe have one person answering your phone, maybe you have nobody answering your phone. The phone can be answered. Chats can be responded to like, this is an whole aspect of practical applications that you, you all should be thinking about that. Kevin: How can I, how can I create a better experience on a creepy experience, but a better experience for my customer using some of these tools to get them to what they need instead of the endless frustrating, like back and forth. So, so  Andy: this might be a good point. Two are a good time for me to mention. I would like to run an experiment. Andy: So if you've made it to the end of the episode here, I would like to run an experiment based on what Kevin just said about personalization. And I think I would like to I'm kind of just spitballing this as as I go. I'd like to put a form on my website. So let's just say I'm going to go with sprinkler. Andy: com forward slash Ink Works, I N K W O R K S. Ink Works. I'm gonna put a form there with a few questions, including your address and when you fill out the form, I'm gonna use one of Kevin's projects, ink works.ai to send you a personalized letter handwritten from me based on the input, personalized based on the inputs that you enter in the form. Andy: How's that  Kevin: sound? That sounds awesome. So, and that's, that's my, and  Andy: I'm going to pay for it. It comes with a fee and that's Kevin's project right now, inkworks. ai. So I'd like to actually test it in real time with you guys listening and, um, you know, give you, give you a taste of what Kevin's  Kevin: working on. So we do, we're using, uh, LLM technology to interpret messages. Kevin: And then we're using pen wielding robots to handwrite notes. So, let's imagine you did a big landscaping project for a customer. Like, you know you should send them a thank you note. Or a Christmas card, or whatever it is. But you never get around to it, because it's, it's, it's time consuming. Um, using Inkworks, you can produce that letter. Kevin: And it comes out handwritten, absolutely unique. Um, I of course have them piled around here. They look like they're written by... And, um, it's remarkable efficacy and very ironic that I'm using multiple layers of AI to create something that's so highly personalized specifically because people are craving that personalization that we're all bombarded by all of this information constantly with emails and SMS and all this stuff and people just ignore it and it's just going to get worse as AI continues to advance. Kevin: Um, so. Ironically that my, one of the first toeholds I have is doing something analog with something amazingly complex.  Andy: So great. So great. Can't wait to run this experiment. Uh, on that note, you know, Kevin does, uh, coach businesses in this field. If you would like to, uh, hire Kevin to, you know, help you with your business, coach your employees, give you tips. Andy: How can somebody reach out to you, Kevin?  Kevin: Yeah, the easiest is, uh, Kevin at www. inkworks. ai. Um. Or I'm relatively easy to find on, on LinkedIn. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm out there.  Andy: Very cool. Very cool. And hopefully we can maybe find a time to do a little online training as well. And again, visit sprinkler. com forward slash inkworks and let's test out Kevin's software. Andy: I'm really excited to do that. And. You know, Kevin, I think that from all the people who I have met that are into AI and use the tool, I don't think I've met someone as knowledgeable as yourself, and I really appreciate you sharing  Kevin: this with us today. Thank you. I'm clearly passionate about it. This is the future, guys. Kevin: Okay,  Andy: well, until our next AI conversation. Thanks so much, Kevin. Have a great one.  

Kevin: Well, hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of "Coping". Kathy and I are happy to be with you guys today. Kathy: Yes. So last episode, we talked about the ways we process grief stuffers and sharers. Kevin: Yes. And we talked about ways to process our grief rather than just stuff it or just share it. And so in this episode, we're going to go a little bit deeper and talk about one way we can begin to get that grief out, how we can go from dealing with grief to processing grief. And so the question we're going to begin with is, "Kathy, are you a list lover or hater? How do you feel about lists?" Kathy: I love lists, and I can't wait to dive into this. So let's get started. You mentioned that there's a process we can use to begin to actually get the grief out. Can you explain it a little bit more? Kevin: Yeah. So we all have lists that we have running, whether it's grocery lists or to do lists or goals that we have by the end of the year, lists of know, instructions from Ikea, whatever that may be. We have these running lists of things. One example of a list that I have in my new job, I keep a running list of all of the things that I need to do in a particular day or particular week, and I'm constantly adding and subtracting things to that list. What about you? What's one of the lists that you keep? Kathy: Oh, my goodness. I have so many. My funniest lists are related to shopping, like grocery, Christmas, birthday. That running. I have so many random items on there that for this episode, I was looking at my lists, and I have 181. Kevin: Oh, my gosh. Literally 181? Kathy: Yes. Kevin: Oh, my goodness. How is it possible? How is that even possible? How do you keep track of 181 lists? Kathy: I have no idea. But I do have them. Kevin: Well, that's why you have them, right? Because there's so many things to keep track of. Oh, my goodness. That's crazy. I didn't expect that. Well, maybe we don't all keep 180 lists, but we have lists that are running, and we have them for very practical reasons. But there's an aspect of that practicality that will help us in the process of processing grief. The neuroscience tells us that there are two main benefits when it comes to list making. No matter what kind of list you're making, the two main benefits are externalizing and focusing. The benefit of externalizing is to do away with mental juggling. I think we've all been there where we try to keep all of the dates and all of the times and all of the information in our head, and we just find ourselves struggling to keep all of it in our brains. And that's because the neuroscience says most people can only hold about four things in their mind at a time. And I'll be honest, four things sounds like way more than what I can handle. I can do maybe one and possibly two things, but I'm constantly having things fall through the cracks. Kathy: Yeah, that's fascinating. Only four things. I think I'm the opposite. I'm holding 181 things, apparently. But this is very important to understand that if our brain can only hold four things, for those of us who attempt to hold more, we are not succeeding, and we probably are facing other consequences for holding all that information in. Kevin: That's right. And it could be really mentally exhausting to hold all of that stuff in, and you're expending energy by trying to hold on to those things and not really accomplishing them. So it's a waste of energy. In addition to being challenging, it's a waste of energy. But the other benefit of list making is focusing. So keeping the list and making a list helps you to move from one task to another without wasting time. It ultimately makes you like a productivity ninja. If you have a list of things that you have to take care of instead of wasting energy and trying to remember all of those things, you can actually take time to accomplish each of those tasks one by one. Kathy: Yeah, I think that it's so interesting that you're pointing out the focusing. Studies show as I'm helping people with budgets, like in coaching, studies show that if you make a grocery list before you enter the grocery, you're less likely to spend as much money. And so just the five minutes it would take to sit in the car before you walk into the store helps you focus. And then, of course, then there are lots of financial benefits, as one example. Kevin: Right. Exactly. So we have these two benefits of list making externalizing and focusing. But it really begins to beg the question, "how will listing help with our losses?" Well, the reality is when we experience grief and loss, our subconscious mind creates a running list of all of our losses. And this list runs deep and wide all the way back to our childhood. Some of those ambiguous losses, our mind retains all of those things. And we talked last week about the stuffers and sharers and their attempt to deal with this grief. And the principle still that applies for this week is the need to seek out practices that promote externalizing and focus missing. And so when we are using the practice of listing, we can begin to externalize our loss and begin focusing on the pain to start processing that loss. When it comes to grief, then externalizing our loss and focusing on our pain will help us to begin to process that loss and help us to move forward. Kathy: How do you recommend our listeners engage in this listing practice for grief? Kevin: Good question. First, I want to say it may feel a little bit awkward at first to create a list as it relates to grief. It won't be as intuitive, but that's kind of the point, right, is to start using that part of your brain that wants to move through the grocery store really quickly and efficiently and budget consciously for your grief. There seems to be a disconnect, but if we can draw a bridge between those two parts of our mind, I think it will help engage our whole mind into our grief and help us to process it, which is really what the struggle is with our grief, is that we don't process it. It's just there. The encouragement then is just to start. And the best way to start is have a blank piece of paper with lines and a pen and something to write with. Or if you're more of an electronic person like I am, pull up notes on your phone and just start making a running list. You can start with the big things, work your way to the small things. You can start with the things that happened today, this week, since the beginning of the year. Just start writing down like basically a catch all list of all of the losses. What will begin to happen is some of those losses will relate to other little losses or there'll be subcategories of losses. You'll have some repeats of losses, but all of that externalizing of that loss will give you the opportunity to look at that list, to hold it in your hand, and to feel that affirmation of. No wonder I'm so tired, no wonder this has been so hard. Look at all that I've been through. And then that focus also gives you a new perspective to start to be more compassionate to yourself and helps you to focus in on where the pain is and where you need to be good to yourself and where you need to reach out for help and support. Kathy: I think from my experience personally, and also doing this with our groups, when we're listing, we start writing down things we didn't even know were lost or things we had forgotten. I know that happened with me. And then drawing some links and connections between losses that I hadn't thought about for decades. So getting it out, the externalizing is super helpful. We had one student say she didn't know that her job loss that happened six years ago was the cause of her depression. It's a simple but very, very effective tool. Kevin: Yeah. And that's what our brain does. Right. Our brain is wired to make connections. And so when we're creating a list like this and we're able to see it tangibly, the brain will start to naturally connect the dots of the losses that we've experienced and where a lot of our pain is coming from. We've talked about the 6th stage of grief before, and that's meaning making. So when we find ourselves in the process of grieving, meaning making is such an important practice that we need to include in the highs and lows of a loss. And we can begin the process of meaning making at any point during our grief experience. If you're able to see the list of losses and your brain's drawing connections about how the loss that you experienced this week is related to a loss you experienced in your childhood or related to the thing that you didn't think was a loss that happened two years ago. The brain can make meaning from that. And that's what the processing work really becomes fruitful and beneficial. Kevin: And so I think what I would like to do to conclude our episode today is to lead you all through a journaling exercise to begin the process of list making. If you're in a place right now where you're able to grab something to write with or you have a device in front of you that you can type on, I want to invite you to open that up, to pull that out and get yourself in the mindset in a space where you can practice some of that journaling right now. So with the piece of paper, with the device in front of you, I want you to just begin with the first thing that comes to mind when you think of grief, when you think of loss. What's that thing that happened to you that feels it's always there? It's the heaviest thing in your backpack. Write that thing down first. Maybe there's more than one thing. Go ahead and start writing down some of the things that come to mind as you continue to write. Think about the things that you may not traditionally think of as losses, but feel like pain points for you. So those difficult conversations that you've had recently, the time that somebody's at something that really hurt you, a time that something happened that made you upset in a way that you didn't expect, start writing down those things too. You think about the different phases of your life, your earliest memories, your childhood, your young adult life, and even just your recent experiences. What are some of those points in time that have made a lasting impression? A mark on you because of a loss, because of an experience, a difficult encounter? Write down those things too. You may be at a point in your journaling where you're getting stuck, and that's okay. You can look over your list and review and see what other thoughts comes to mind. Even if there's something that you're not sure if it should be on the list, just add it. Just write it down. If it keeps coming to your mind, just write it down. If you find yourself free flowing and writing a lot, go ahead and keep on writing until you get to a stopping point. Now that you're at the end and you're looking over your list, why don't you circle those things that feel most heavy right now? I'm only imagining what you've written on your list. Thinking of my own list. And let me be the first to say, my goodness. No wonder you feel the way that you do. No wonder this has been so difficult for you. Look at all that you've been through. So for whatever you may be coping with, we want to extend our blessings to you.

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297: Freedom & Running [00:00:00] Angie: All right, so today we're continuing our series about how running is connected to our core values. And today we wanna talk about how we like to connect freedom to running because we believe that running can bring so much freedom into our lives and help us live a life without limits. But unfortunately, we see so many runners actually losing that freedom because they're training without intention and direction. They get caught up in the grind, shackled to a training regimen that isn't right for them. I had to say it for you there, guys. I think you did. It's a great line. tied to a goal that no longer matters, right? Like they're just tied to this goal and this training plan, and it doesn't bring them joy. They're not into it anymore and that can lead to feeling stuck or trapped, which is the opposite of that freedom that so many of us are looking for. Some people think that running with a plan restricts them, and today we wanna talk about how being intentional and creating a plan that's right for [00:01:00] you can actually bring so much freedom into your running and into the rest of your life. [00:01:04] Kevin: Yeah, I mean, you got so many good points there, angie, just in the intro, just in the intro, like , Angie put the, the outline for us together for us this time and, and your line that that gets me is, is shackled to the running. Like I just, it makes me think of, Christmas, Carol Uhhuh with Marley, like carrying around the chains behind us. Jacob Marley. Yes. Where it's . Is that, is it Scrooge McDuck doing? [00:01:28] Angie: I don't know. That was a really poor accent. Whatever was think was the pretty, that was Scrooge, I think it was, but I, I don't know what [00:01:34] Kevin: what we're going for there. Great. but that's what I picture is trying to run, which is, you know, physically taxing, but doing it well, feeling like you're literally dragging behind the, like the weight of, of the run itself. Not just like the physical challenge going out and running it, whatever, whatever the pace is, but just of like, you have to go out and do the [00:01:53] Angie: thing. Yeah. And that's not a good feeling. And I know that some runners definitely get to that point if they're in a [00:02:00] training cycle, whether that is a half marathon training cycle, a marathon training cycle, or maybe you're not exactly training for anything right now. And we're gonna kind of get into all of those points within the episode today. So we wanna start off by just. Making this point that running gives you wings. Like I know that's kind of the, old Red Bull. Is that still their slogan? I think that's still their slogan. Yeah. Yeah. slogan there. But like we, God, I hope they don't sue us. Oh, I didn't say Red Bull. I said running. Oh, okay. Running gives you wings. I hope they sue us [00:02:29] Kevin: and we get like super notoriety because of it. [00:02:31] Angie: Actually because of one line from a random podcast. Yes. Yeah. I just don't think we're on their radar. but we believe that running can give you that freedom. We believe that running gives us freedom in so many different ways. And the thing that we see a lot of runners. Doing here, like we said before, is like feeling stuck and why, what makes you feel stuck? What makes you feel trapped? A lot of times I think it's that feeling comes from focusing on what you can't do versus what you [00:03:00] can do, and also not realizing the progress that you've already made. Like, I think that we get into our running journey and we start setting goals, and we start following plans and we wanna just keep getting faster, running longer. All of those things are fantastic, but if we're not making that progress that we wanna see right away, or if we are just like looking at those goals and seeing how far away they are, like so that, you know, I've just, I can't do that yet, or I'm not able to run, you know, the pace that I wanna run. if we're focusing on the stuff that we can't do versus on the things that we can do, that can definitely lead to that feeling of stuck and trapped. [00:03:44] Kevin: Oh yeah. Cuz you feel like you're not actually making any progress. Yeah. Cause if all you do is look forward to goals that you haven't made it to yet it feels like you're always missing. Yeah. If you periodically take time to look backwards and you're like, oh wow, I've, I've done all of this. Like, I mean [00:04:00] this, this episode kind of makes me pause for a second of like, to think back of the years and years of running that I've got like , I remember my first run, I was like a mile into it and I'm like, This is really, really hard. And at the time I was basically running as hard as I possibly could. For as long as I could. Like, that was, I was 14 and just going for it. [00:04:19] Angie: Poor training philosophy. [00:04:20] Kevin: Poor training philosophy. I had no clue what I was doing. Like I had no coach. My dad got me shoes and said, all right, we're, we're gonna go. So I just took off. Yeah. but to see like the progress from there to here is, is crazy how far that is. Mm-hmm. so, well, there's goals that I'm like, man, I, I wish I was at that point to look backwards. It's, it's phenomenal how far I've actually progressed. [00:04:43] Angie: Yeah. And so we think it's really important to what, you know, when you're looking at the freedom that running can give you to really just stop and acknowledge yourself for how far you've already come. If you're stuck in this cycle of not feeling like it's enough or not feeling that like you're where you want [00:05:00] to be yet, just take a quick pause and look back on your running journey up to this point and think about where you used to be and think about how far forward you are now from that point, right? And acknowledge where you are and then kind of take stock and assess where you are right now. We've talked about the importance of this, previous podcasts, about the, you know, really understanding where you are in your running right now and getting clear on that before you try to set goals, before you try to make any plans to move ahead, you have to know where you are and what I would love to encourage all of you to do, and I would love for you to reach out to me on Instagram at real life runners and let me know what you come up with here. But I would really like for all of you to just take time to list three wins on your running journey and or ways that you're running has improved your physical or mental health. Because if you really think about it, you have come far. I don't [00:06:00] care if you started last week or 10 years ago, right? Like if you started last week, A win is, I started, right? Like I got out the door, I bought my first pair of running shoes. Like there are so many different things, right? Like if you think about it, how many pairs of running shoes have you gone through if you've been running for 10 years? Oh my word. Right. Well, I mean, that's always the fun thing of like the, the shoe that I'm in has a number on the backend, it says that version. Mm-hmm. . I've been in that shoe since before that shoe existed. Mm-hmm. . So the fact that it's on like the 18th version means I've been in that shoe for more than 18 years, which is crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So, take time to do that. You know, I, I said come up with three, come up with as, as many as you want. You know, like 10, 20, 25, 30. I mean, you could probably come up with a lot, especially if you're looking at some of these little wins along the way, like we mentioned. I mean, [00:06:52] Kevin: you have a great one there. Like if you just started last week, getting out and running is a big thing. Going to like a specialty running shoe store [00:07:00] and talking to the people there and buying running shoes. Yep. You've gotta make this big acceptance thing of I'm going to financially invest in myself and put myself in a place where I might not feel super comfortable. Yeah. Because going into this store where there are quote unquote real runners mm-hmm. and what if they look down on the shoes that I walk in with? Yep. Like, do I have to have the right socks to even go into this store? Mm-hmm. , I don't even know what's going on. Right. Like that could be a big hurdle for some people's, even just trying to go through the process of buying appropriate running shoes. [00:07:30] Angie: Absolutely. And so if you have. Bought running shoes and have started out the door, those are both wins, right? And if you are much farther along in your journey, just kind of take time to look back on some of your favorite moments in your running journey and really look at all of the freedom that you really have gained in your running journey. Because what I want all of us to understand is that there is good and bad in all things, in all situations. So it all [00:08:00] depends on what you want to focus on. So if you. Right now are focusing on all the things that you haven't done yet, or the goals that you haven't achieved, or how long it's taking you to achieve these things, you're going to feel very negative. You're gonna feel very stuck and trapped and limited and restricted. Whereas if you look at all of the wins, all of the progress that you've already made, you can already start to see some of the freedom that running has brought into your life already. [00:08:27] Kevin: Yeah. I mean that that everything in life has both sides to it. Yeah. So being able to, to choose [00:08:33] Angie: life is 50 50. [00:08:34] Kevin: Right. And you get to focus with side which side you want to focus on. Which side do you want to give more attention to you could stare at the negative side or, or you could look at all of the positives going on. Look at all the progress that you have made. If you keep taking into account and being grateful for all the progress mm-hmm. , you're going to start seeing more progress. If you keep looking at things that you haven't made yet, I bet you can start adding to that list just almost [00:09:00] as easily and you're not gonna get to a happy place that direction. Yeah. So keep looking at the things that you can be grateful for, that you like, I've done this and this and this. Look at all of my accomplishments and it'll start the momentum going that direction. [00:09:11] Angie: Exactly. So it makes me think, you know, when I think about this idea of focusing on what I want or what I've already accomplished, focusing on more of the positive things it makes me think about training my dog. Okay, so we've got a miniature poodle. She's adorable. Her name is Indie and she is two years old. And we got her when she was about 12 weeks old, right? 11. No, yeah. We got, we got kind of got thrown like we were supposed to get her at one point it kind of got pushed back, but somewhere around that, around that range. I decided I was going to train her myself. And so I bought a dog training program because I knew nothing about training a dog. And so I found a fantastic dog training program. Shout out to Baxter and Bella. So those of you that if you have puppies, go check out Baxter and bella.com. I'm totally not being paid to say that they're just a [00:10:00] fantastic company and really helped me learn how to train my dog. but they focus on positive reinforcement. So their big thing is don't tell the dog what not to do because they don't understand that. Tell them what you want them to do instead. So if they are currently doing something that you don't want them to do, Give them something else to do. Tell them the behavior that you want for them. So say, you know, someone comes and rings the doorbell and the dog starts barking, instead of saying no or quiet you, I'm gonna tell them, go to place. Right? Like, we have a, a place where Indy's supposed to go when, the door rings. And so she's supposed to go to her place. And at first, when that happens, when you're trying to teach her this, you tell her what to do, and then you treat her, you give her that reward. So we're focusing and we're rewarding the behavior that we want. And so if we are as runners, like our minds, although we are much smarter than dogs, they still operate on similar principles. There are things [00:11:00] that we can use like opera and conditioning, classical conditioning, ways that we can reward ourselves to allow to create habits, to create new habits and new associations, positive associations with certain things in our brain. So if we are looking at our running and we're constantly focusing on the negative, we can understand why we're gonna start feeling negative about our running, but if instead we look at all the positive things and all the ways that running has brought more freedom to our lives, that's gonna be, you know, we're gonna have a lot more positive feeling toward our running. [00:11:31] Kevin: Yeah. I mean, that works with so many people. I think. Yeah. It, it works very much with runners. You know, we, you say that we're certainly smarter than a dog, but many miles into a long training run. Mm-hmm., I am Right on the same level. Like, tell me what to do and then give me a gel and I will just like, oh, and now tell me what else to do and gimme another gel. Yeah. And, you know, it's very, very similar. I don't think it's, it's all that different from the dog brain. [00:11:55] Angie: Well, and this is just habit formation. Yes. You know, like 1 0 1 habit [00:12:00] formation 1 0 1 is there's a cue, there's a behavior and there's a reward. That's how you create a new habit. Mm-hmm. . And so, yes, we can see it very clearly with dog training, but it also works with us as humans. [00:12:11] Kevin: Yeah. But the negative also works. Yes. Like if, if you. If you keep associating whatever the, the repetitive pattern is mm-hmm. with negative thoughts, you're going to just keep bringing up those negative thoughts over and over again. [00:12:24] Angie: Right. So, look at your running and decide which, what do you wanna focus on? Do you wanna focus on all the negatives and where you aren't? Or do you wanna focus on all the positives and how far you've come up to this point, do you think, which one do you think is gonna motivate you to actually get to where you wanna go? Because a lot of times people think that, well, if I'm hard on myself, if I tell myself that I'm not good enough, then that will motivate me to do more. And they've actually done studies that, and, and shown that that is not true. That more people are inclined to you know, continue forward, reach higher, do more when they [00:13:00] are built up along the way, not when they're pushed down. [00:13:02] Kevin: Yeah. I mean, this kind of reflects how we coach our cross-country team. Yeah. Like, At the, at the end of the race, whatever the times are that Kings come across with, we always are trying to get them to tell us something positive that happened out of that. Sometimes the answer is they ran their fastest time for a 5K ever. Yeah. But sometimes they didn't. Mm-hmm. and you can see it in on their face that they are pretty down on themselves. Yeah. And it's pretty easy to turn that around. You just ask them, what do you, what do you wanna remember about the, about this race? Mm-hmm. that you did really, really well. Yeah. And they can come up with it, you know, they might have to push a little bit, but if you do it after every single race, you do it after workouts, you do it after an easy run, after a long run, whatever, it'll start the brain thinking, Hey, what positive thing just occurred? Right. Because running has positive aspects to it. [00:13:48] Angie: Absolutely. I also like to think about running as giving us freedom to dream big, freedom to challenge ourselves and freedom to explore. Freedom [00:14:00] to explore on a couple different levels. Like, I like exploring, like in, you know, practical terms. Okay. Like actually exploring on foot, like going to new places and really exploring, new cities by running, you know, running around the new city and kind of just checking out different things. I think that that's a really fun way that we can explore just the world outside of ourselves. But I think that running also allows us the freedom to explore who we wanna be and, and what kind of a person we want to choose to be in this world. Because I think that a lot of times, you know, runner. Kind of limit themselves without even realizing it. Maybe they want to set a goal, but they end up procrastinating and just not setting that goal, not choosing a race, not, you know, really working towards something and not, not to say that you have to race to be a runner because you obviously don't, but. Someone that has this desire within them to do something with, they're running and they're just kind of not [00:15:00] committing to a decision. [00:15:01] Kevin: Yes. They have this idea that they'd like to run a marathon or a half marathon. Yeah. They even have a goal time, but they just keep putting off when they're going to actually start trying to directly chase that goal. Yeah. It seems like a good goal for a little bit later. Yeah. For down the road. Also, you're liking to explore new cities on foot. I, I cannot get on board with that one. Why? I've heard so many people on different podcasts, they're like, oh yeah, new City and then I like to talk around the city. I hate stoplights. Oh, okay. I hate stoplights. Yeah. It's honestly, it's why I like running so early in the morning cuz you get to a stoplight and there's no cars there. Mm-hmm. . So if you want to just go across the street, just go across the street. Okay. [00:15:40] Angie: Well what about if it's not a city, what if it's a more, suburban or like country type of area. Sure. Like more nature. Sure. [00:15:48] Kevin: Gimme As long as it's safe country roads. Yeah, I could, I could work that. Yeah. Exploring new cities just sounds like the worst way to try a new city. It's like, oh, one block at a time. . It's just not, it's not me. [00:15:59] Angie: Yeah. I [00:16:00] just like to see different forms of nature also. You know, like, because here in Florida we're so used to the beach and the heat and flatland, so when And the heat you go and the heat . So like I love running in California. Mm-hmm. because the terrain is so different, the weather is so different. Like I love, you know, running in the hills because down here we have none of that. So that to me is, sure we do, there's that overpass and the other overpass exploring on, but yeah. But a lot of times people kind of hold themselves back because they don't set a goal because they're not sure if they can achieve it. So we don't wanna commit to it because I don't know if I really wanna put it out there, I'm not a hundred percent sure if I'm going to achieve it. And that can lead to this feeling of like, Unsatisfaction and not feeling fulfilled because you never actually set a goal for yourself. You're never actually chasing something to see if you're able to accomplish that thing, or kind of the flip side of that people do set a goal and they end up chasing a goal that no longer [00:17:00] matters to them. Right? They just pick a goal to pick a goal so that they can just set like an arbitrary goal. And it doesn't actually mean anything. And then they just feel like, well now I've set this goal, so now I've committed to it, so now I have to continue down this path, even if I don't really wanna do it. [00:17:15] Kevin: Right. And that goal may have meant something when they set it, maybe didn't, maybe it didn't. Sometimes people just set completely arbitrary goals, but sometimes you start with a goal that really does mean something to you. Yeah. But over time, it turns out that, you know, maybe you grew, you evolved, maybe your life changed, life changes. Right. You just view running differently now. Mm-hmm. , like you found a different aspect of running that you like more, and that goal just doesn't it? It doesn't light the fire the same way that it used to. Yeah. So at that, Why are you still trying to pursue that goal? You probably are actually kind of halfway between these two things. You've got this goal that's kinda like pulling you sort of, but you're also not even directly aiming towards that goal. So you've got this goal, but you're not [00:18:00] working your way to it as a great way to feel unsatisfied and unfulfilled is there's a vague goal that you're not moving towards. [00:18:05] Angie: Right. And I think it often leads people to feeling very restricted also oh yeah. Because if they don't really connect with that goal anymore, whether they did in the past or never did you know at all. if they feel like now I'm just stuck chasing this goal, I'm restricted to like this one thing only. [00:18:23] Kevin: Ooh. Yeah. Like if your, if your goal was like a half marathon time. Mm-hmm. there's no point in trying to race for a really fast 5k. Right. Because how is that fast 5K going to perfectly set you up for the half marathon. Mm-hmm. . I just have to be so head down and driven. Half marathon only. Right. Maybe I run four half marathons during the year aiming for my best. Mm-hmm. . Takes away the chance to go have like a family fun run Turkey trot or like Right. The jingle Bell jog and L thing. They all seem to be holiday Racistly, . But you know, it takes some of that fun away or just you're out [00:19:00] on vacation instead of just being able to explore the trails of wherever you went to. Mm-hmm. , you're like, no, no, no. I've got this plan that I've gotta stick to because I've got the half marathon race coming up. [00:19:09] Angie: Yeah. Like, I have to do this tempo workout, Uhhuh because this is on my race plan. Yes. And that race plan ends up being very restrictive instead of giving you more freedom, which is what we're gonna talk about in our next section. But what we want you guys to realize here, if, if this is resonating with you or if you know people that you know might fall into this category, there's a saying that my friends and I use often , and it's one of those sayings that can apply to a lot of different situations. And that is, it's just running. Yeah. It's just running like this is a hobby that you've chosen for yourself so you can change your mind anytime you want to like, you don't have to be locked into one goal. If that thing no longer lights your fire, change it. Right? Go pursue [00:20:00] something else. None of this actually matters, and it all completely matters all at the same time. That's the weird paradox of all of this. [00:20:09] Kevin: Yeah, I mean that's the, it's just running is a great line. But the second one, I love this line is none of this really matters, but it's also incredibly important. Mm-hmm. because when you have a goal, it is super important. It's super important to you. Really important, but really important to you. Mm-hmm. in the grand scheme of the world and expand it, the universe, you hitting a PR is not actually changing the universe Right. All that much. So it really doesn't big picture matter, but to you and maybe to those people close to you, you know, we had our, our Family Connection episode last week. It might matter a lot to that group of people so it is something that helps drive you, that helps push you forward, that helps try to extend you outside of your, your current boundaries that you're putting on, on yourself. Mm-hmm so that does [00:21:00] matter a heck of a lot, the very specifics of what that goal is, and whether you do reach it or you don't reach, it does not matter. Right. Striving towards the goal matters a whole heck of a lot more than achieving it. [00:21:11] Angie: Yes. Having a goal matters, striving toward the goal matters. The person that you become in pursuit of that goal matters, but the actual goal itself. it doesn't really matter because that number is different for every single person. You might have a race distance, you might have a race time, and it's completely arbitrary. You're the one that decided that that was your goal, and that is a beautiful thing. So we are not saying that it doesn't matter because it does to you, and that makes it very important. But whether or not you achieve that goal specifically doesn't actually matter because it is in the pursuit of that goal that you challenge yourself, that you dream bigger, that you explore what you're actually made of, or who you want to be you. You [00:22:00] get an insight to how you deal with adversity, how to become more resilient, how to pick yourself back up when things aren't going well. Like all of the lessons that we learn in our running journey, we learn in pursuit of a goal, not by actually achieving that goal. So whether or not you achieve that goal means nothing about you as a human unless you want it to, like, if you decide this means that I'm this kind of person, okay, fine. You get to make that choice. But it doesn't actually mean that you're just the one that attached that meaning to that goal. And I would argue that it's not an a achieving that thing that you become that kind of person or that kind of human. It is in the pursuit of that goal that you become that kind of person. [00:22:47] Kevin: Yeah. I mean this is, there's a thing about like climbing a mountain. You spend most of your time on the side of the mountain. Mm-hmm. and very, very little time at the actual top of the mountain. Yeah. So you really gotta focus on the [00:23:00] whole climbing the mountain thing. Mm-hmm. not standing at the peak. Right. Like, it's great to have a goal, but you are doing a whole lot of steps. Mm-hmm. up the side of this, you know, mountain essentially. And then maybe you make it to the top or maybe you don't, but most of the journey is spent on the side. Yeah. So that's really where your focus needs to be. [00:23:19] Angie: Right? Because I think a lot of times, like if you've ever fallen into this trap or know anybody that has, where they don't, like, you're nervous to set a goal because you're like, well, I don't know if I can actually do it. I don't know if I can actually achieve it. Who cares? Who cares? If you set a goal and you don't achieve it, you do. That's it. You are the only person most likely that cares whether or not you achieve that goal. Your family, your friends, might be there supporting you and they might want it for you. Yeah. Right? Because they know it's important to you. So they're on board with you. Right. They're, they're supporting. Like if you, if you achieve it, they're there to celebrate you. If you don't achieve it, [00:24:00] they're there to try to pick you back up. Mm-hmm. . But they care about it because you care about it. So the only thing that you're actually worried about, if you really break this down, Is the judgment that you're going to place on yourself. You are going to judge yourself if you don't achieve that goal, that's what you are worried about. Like if you find yourself not wanting to set a goal because you're not sure if you're going to achieve it, the only thing that's there is your judgment of yourself. If you really start to dig really deep and get down to the core of it. So if you understand that it's just running and that you can choose to judge yourself or to not judge yourself however you would like, then running can give you the freedom to explore and set big goals and try new things and decide who you wanna become in the process. And that's what training with intention will give you the freedom to do. When you understand that, when you put an intention behind it, when you set a goal for yourself, when you have a direction for [00:25:00] your training, it allows you the freedom to like say, all right, this is where we're going. Like, let's see what happens. [00:25:06] Kevin: Yeah. And, and you can change your mind. Yes. And I mean, this is, when you started this, you said that there were, we gotta make sure I've got the, the wording on this right? There's, there's goals that might, might not matter to you anymore. And this is, this is a number that, it was a number goal that I put out there was running a marathon in 2 37 in Change. It's running a marathon at six minute per mile pace. Mm-hmm. . And for a long time, like I was pushing myself towards that goal, but. after really trying to figure out why and where that goal came from. I broke down all of these things that I had built up, that I had raised this 2 37 as some sort of like, if I can run that right, if I run it, then I actually have validated myself as actually a fast enough runner as actually good enough. Cuz it goes back to like this experience I had in college where I didn't feel like I was fast [00:26:00] enough on the college cross-country team. And there was, there was a long run that we were on and Coach said, you guys are on 2 36 pace for a marathon. And everybody else joked about it. Like, well, okay coach, but we're training for an eight K. And you know, to me that stuck with me of when I was there, I was that fast. So if I could be that fast, if I could complete a marathon in that pace, then I'm, then I'm good enough. Mm-hmm. , but I've given up that I need to hit that time to be good enough and I've just accepted that I'm good enough , so [00:26:35] Angie: I'm curious. What your thoughts are now, now that you've kind of broken this down and really examined this goal. Yeah. What are your thoughts on your marathon pr? Because what I want you guys to understand is that Kevin's marathon PR is only a minute slower than this. Like it is, he's run a 2 38, which is a 6 0 2 pace. Yep. Right. Which, and before was not [00:27:00] good enough. Right. Like, that was not your goal. You're like, that is not my goal, that's not what I was going for. So how do you feel about that now? Like that performance? I mean, obviously you didn't achieve that exact time, right? [00:27:11] Kevin: I didn't achieve the, the actual number, but I'm, the longer I run, the less connected I am to the actual numbers on the clock. Mm-hmm. . And it took a long time to get there, and I don't know if I'm ever gonna completely disconnect from the numbers on the clock. [00:27:24] Angie: I don't think you have to completely disconnect. I, I don't like it's just keeping them in perspective. [00:27:28] Kevin: Right. Yeah. And you know, it was, it was remarkably close. But I, if I look at it that way, I always think that it was close, but came up short when I think about it, of like, man, I really pushed myself, I really went really hard that day. I went out aggressive. I tried to stay up to the front. I pushed myself good pacing throughout. I wanted to walk and I just kept pushing and grinding. Like all, everything that should happen in a marathon, I'm getting exhausted. My legs feel like lead and I'm so [00:28:00] dragging myself. I'm catching up to half marathoners and I'm like, okay, just pass this person now, and now pass this person. I had a finishing kick in that race. Mm-hmm. , which I don't often have much of a finishing kick, like everything. [00:28:12] Angie: Which race was that one? Was that Space? Space Coast. [00:28:14] Kevin: Yeah. had an actual finishing kick in it. Like there are things that didn't go correctly in that race, correct. Fueling wise, ideally. Oh, okay. No, literally correctly. Oh, okay. Like there are things fueling wise that didn't go correctly cuz I, I checked out the map and went all the, like the gels and drinks and things. Oh, oh, right. I got to like, where I was gonna take my first gel and they didn't have them to pass out mm-hmm. , they gave me a cup of water and so it mess with my fueling pain. Right. So that also then just messes with my head, this was like, you know, I'm trying to figure out how to do this whole thing. Yeah. And I, that didn't have anything to do with it, but it does start you down a negative path. I mean, maybe it did. Sure. You know, there were, the, the little bit of energy would've been helpful. Mm-hmm. [00:29:00] or just knowing that I was staying on plan. Right. Would've also been helpful. Right. Either of those. [00:29:04] Angie: So was there a physical or a mental Or both. Or both, [00:29:07] Kevin: yeah. But either of those could have been enough to knock off Two minutes. So does that mean that I, I. at best, A 2 38 marathoner. No. I could probably go faster, but I don't need to go faster anymore. Mm-hmm. and a few years ago I literally, I needed to, like, if you asked me like, how, how much do you want this? I'm like, no, no. I need to go another minute faster than I've run before. Mm-hmm. . [00:29:28] Angie: Yeah. And so you have changed your goal Yeah. Over time into, I want to get faster into, I just wanna keep running longer and challenge myself in that direction. [00:29:40] Kevin: Yes. [00:29:41] Angie: So when, when you look at your one hi 100 mile goal now, , right? Because I know that when we talked about this before and you know, if you guys are curious about Kevin's journey to a hundred miles, we've did, we've done like a couple podcasts about that. When was that? Last year. We we're in 2023 now. [00:30:00] So he attempted his first 100 mile race in May of 2022. So you'd have to scroll back a while in our episodes, but there's some episodes that talk specifically about that, and like kind of everything that happened surrounding that race. But spoiler alert, he didn't get to a hundred miles in that first attempt. And so when you think about it now, I know that, you know, at that time you had thought of it as, I don't know if I can actually do this. Right? And that was the intriguing part to you is Yes. Is actually putting myself out there not knowing if I'm actually going to be able to do this thing, right? [00:30:36] Kevin: Like, I know that I can run 26 miles, I had to pick it to the end of marathon. How fast is it, is the question mark. Right? But can I actually make it the, the complete distance of a hundred miles? Mm-hmm. , that's a whole different, that was the question. That was the unclear. [00:30:49] Angie: So what are your thoughts on that now? [00:30:51] Kevin: That it's still an unclear mm-hmm. and that's what I find most exciting. Yeah. I find that more exciting than how fast can I run a marathon right now? Like [00:31:00] that right now is where I'm most intrigued. [00:31:03] Angie: Yeah. So I think that that's really important because, do you find a freedom in that? . I find excitement in that. Okay. I don't know if freedom is the right word for it. [00:31:13] Angie: But when you have a big goal like that, do you feel like it gives you the freedom to just like challenge yourself and try new things and like let's just see how this goes? [00:31:23] Kevin: Yeah. Like I don't feel. Restrict. I don't feel held back by that goal. Yeah. Because the goal's almost so big that it's like, well, I mean, let's just give it a shot. Mm-hmm. , like, it's, I think that's why everybody needs to have this, like, all right, here's what I think I could get, and if I followed a plan, I could probably get to this. Mm-hmm. , there's like your reasonable goal, but I think having the big goal helps you release the need for this, like step-by-step plan. Mm-hmm. , because honestly, the step-by-step plan, it's not perfect. It's not magic. Like there, there's not gonna be like, you know, input A, B, C and get the output of of X, Y, Z. Like that's not exactly how it [00:32:00] works. So sometimes having this goal that's so big that you're just like, I don't know. I think that if I do these things, I can get close to the goal. Let's give it a shot. That's where you get that excitement of. Let's, let's get so excited about trying to strive for that goal. Mm-hmm. that the goal is cool and if I get to the goal, awesome. And then I'll come up with some other crazy ridiculous goal. But the goal so far out there mm-hmm. that just chasing it seems so exciting that it's just like, I think these things are gonna work. I think this is my best way to go for it. And I mean, I've put in a whole lot of effort into trying to figure out what it is the best way to train for it. I think that you as, as much as you were very supportive of me in this, I think from a Angie is my coach perspective, she might have been more satisfied that I didn't get to the finish line on attempt number one because it's head to completely overhaul the way that I train. [00:32:55] Angie: Wow. Oh, I, I don't think that that's necessarily true. [00:32:59] Kevin: At [00:33:00] the time, you were totally supportive and, and super disappointed and like comforting and with me and like this is, you know, all along [00:33:07] Angie: I was disappointed because you were disappointed. Like I wasn't disappointed in you. [00:33:10] Kevin: No, not disappointed in, yeah, disappointed because I was disappointed. [00:33:13] Angie: Like for you. Yes. Yeah. Like I was sharing in your disappointment. [00:33:16] Kevin: Yes. But I honestly, I thought about this on my run today and I tell me, I was like, I'm gonna bring this up on the podcast. Oh, here we go, . I think, well, you know, I like putting people in uncomfortable situations, so Of course. and let's do it. And, and, and it's not uncomfortable. I just think that part of you was sort of like, I. Not like, haha, I was right. Mm-hmm. , but on some level, haha, I was right. You're not wrong. I know you're not wrong. I know, and it wasn't haha, but it was kinda like, because we have a different support level here, right? Like, but if we are, if I'm being completely honest, like yes, there was part of me that believe that you should have done different things in your training leading up to that point. Right. And so there was an element of like feeling [00:34:00] justified, which again, did not diminish my desire for you to achieve that goal at all. No, not at all. Like, like once I was like, okay, well we're going [00:34:11] Angie: for it. Once you were in, I was like, all right, let's go. Like we're all in. What can we do at this point to, you know, help give you the best chance to achieve that goal. Right. But it would've, it's not like I would [00:34:21] Kevin: sabotaged if you . No, God, that would've been awful. I mean, you could not have been more supportive. Yeah. But. . It would've been very interesting if I had made it to that finish line, if I would have changed my training plan the way that I have. Hmm. Or would I have essentially been like, look, I made it. Now I just need to do a little bit more of this. Mm-hmm. , which is su such a trap that we've talked about on so many podcasts, is I did pretty well with this training plan. I just need to do a little bit more of this training plan. Yeah. Instead of being, of taking the, like the brave jump of what if I did it differently? Yeah. [00:34:57] Angie: Well, and that's really hard jump to do. Like that's a [00:35:00] really hard leap to make for a lot of people. And I'll, I'll be honest [00:35:03] Kevin: with you. It's freeing though. [00:35:05] Angie: That's true. That's true. but I will be honest with you, part of me wished I was. Right? Yeah. Too, like part of me, , , [00:35:14] Kevin: the part that had to climb into [00:35:15] Angie: the car. So like, I'll tell you guys, like, you know, there's like a lot of behind the scenes that happens between Kevin and I. Like Kevin helps coach Kevin, coaches me, and I coach him. We coach each other and somehow we make that work, you know, with, with our marriage, thank God. and it's not, it's not an easy balance because there's, there are times that I'm like, can I speak to you as a coach, not as your wife, right? Yep. And I think that that was the big differences. And we had multiple conversations about this leading up to that 100 mile race of there are times that I'm gonna be coach and then there are times that I'm gonna be your wife. Yeah. And, and how do we know the difference and how do we na navigate that, you know, so that both of us are, are on board on the same page, understanding that, and that's all about [00:36:00] communication. and so there. , like in the discussion of Kevin's training for that a hundred mile, there was a big thing that you know about nutrition, about gaining weight, about gaining muscle. That I thought he needed to focus more on, more strength training, more weight gain to get him, more fuel reserves to before he got to that starting line. [00:36:20] Angie: Mm-hmm. . And that's not what happened. That's not how he chose to, to train. And that shows you that even if you've got a coach that is also your wife, you also get to make your own decisions. And that's what Kevin did, right? Like Kevin trained. in the way that he thought was going to best serve him to, to achieve this goal. Yep. And he and I happened to disagree on what that exactly looked like. [00:36:46] Kevin: Right. So then in the post race, we also slightly disagreed on why I didn't make it to the finish line. And I think we have, months removed from it, accepted that both of us [00:37:00] are right and neither of us are entirely Right. That's. I think that's what we've come [00:37:04] Angie: up with. Yeah. We're both right. We're both right. [00:37:06] Kevin: Yes. Yeah, Absolut, because afterwards I was like, oh, well it had to do with my hydration and my fueling strategy. And you're like, yeah. Or you could have lifted some weights beforehand and it's both. And that, that's the thing is it's both. It was entirely both. So, [00:37:20] Angie: and it's what each of us chose to focus on. Yes. Like kind of going back to what we were talking about before. [00:37:25] Kevin: Exactly. Right. Where do you, where do you wanna put your focus? Yeah. Because I would've seen that as my issue. And then just doubled down on that. Tried to fix more of the fueling and the hydrating strategy. [00:37:34] Angie: Well, and I agreed that fueling was the issue. You just thought it was during the race fueling. Yeah. And I also said it was your fueling in the months leading up to the race. Right. That you didn't put on enough weight, in my opinion, to, and, and who knows, maybe that's wrong. You know, like maybe this time around now that you're lifting weights, now that you're eating more. Will you be the same weight on the starting line? Maybe. We don't know. [00:37:56] Kevin: Right. I I think it's far less dependent on [00:38:00] the number on the scale at the starting line. Correct. Correct. And far more like overall fitness. Yes. Like bringing a certain level of strength to the starting line is totally different. So there's, there's that. But yeah, I think we, we dove down that, that rabbit hole for quite a while and [00:38:13] Angie: which is fantastic, you know, and I think that like, I don't know if there's a bunch of people out there that listen to the podcasts that are thinking about ultra-marathons, so maybe you can connect with one of my examples, which is my first half marathon. Like when I first saw Kevin run his first half marathon, that's what got me even remotely thinking that I wonder if I could do this right. And it was that big goal, being able to set that bigger goal for myself of, because at that time, you know, I had all these stories about the type of runner that I was and all these things, but setting that big goal for me of a half marathon, completing my first half marathon, was a very freeing experience because it allowed me to break down [00:39:00] some of my walls and some of the stories that I was telling myself about what I could or couldn't do. Yeah. And I think that that's one of the big things that setting that bigger goal will give you the freedom to do, to say, okay, well if I'm gonna set this goal, then I've gotta actually do the things that are going to give me the best chance of achieving this goal. And that means that I'm going to have to, you know, actually say that I'm a runner, actually follow a training plan, actually, you know, have structure to my weeks and try to get faster, try to run longer, like try to do these things. And it really helped to break down my beliefs about myself as a runner. It helped to break down my beliefs about what I could and couldn't do, what I was and was not capable of. And if I hadn't gone on that journey, I don't know if I would be where I am today. And ongoing on that journey, it then opened up even more freedom to challenge my, [00:40:00] my thoughts, challenge my beliefs about myself being a slow runner, right? Like I had labeled myself as a slow runner for a long time. Okay, now I can do a half marathon, but how fast could I get? Right? And so for me it was, can I break 24 minutes in a 5k? And I didn't know if I could do that. I was definitely not a hundred percent confident in my ability to do that. And, but I trained as if I was going to be able to, yep. And that's the key, is believing that possibility of that outcome in training. To give you the best shot to get there. And I'm happy to say that, that I did do that but again, it wasn't in the achievement of that, that achieving that goal. Yes, it did. Like crossing the finish line of that half marathon, crossing the finish line of that 5K under my goal time, like gave me that like shot of like, heck yeah, I did that. Right? It's that extra shot of confidence. I did that. But even if [00:41:00] I hadn't gotten that exact time, I probably would've kept working for it because I still had that goal. I still had that belief. And just because you don't get it that first time around, doesn't mean it's not possible. [00:41:12] Kevin: Excellent. For those of you keeping track at, at keeping score at home, the the examples Angie put in are her half marathon PR and breaking 24 minutes, and the examples that she put in for me are not running my marathon goal and not completing my hundred Mile race. Just for those of you keeping score at home, Angie did write the outline for this particular episode, just in case we're curious. [00:41:35] Angie: That's hilarious. I didn't even think about that. Okay. So what about a goal that you achieved that helped you? [00:41:40] Kevin: No, no, no. Let's move on to the next one because you discussed something that I think is super important. [00:41:44] Angie: Oh my God, that's so funny. [00:41:46] Kevin: In training for your half marathon in training to break 24 minutes. Yeah. You said, I've gotta start doing the things that, that runners do. That a half marathon does that, someone that a fast runner would do. And part of that is following a dedicated training plan. Yeah. [00:42:00] So you get all these runners outta here that are like, okay, but if I follow a dedicated training plan, then I've gotta, I'm, I'm trapped. I have to do this plan. Mm-hmm. I feel so shackled to the plan, shackled to the plan, restricted by the plan. I can't just go out and do whatever I wanna to do. Like what if I feel tired on this day, the plan says I still have to go out and run six miles. Right. Like, So many people don't wanna follow a plan because they feel the plan will hold them back. Because they feel restricted and shackled, if you will, by the, by the plan itself. Right. And that's just not the point that, it's just not how that works. [00:42:33] Angie: Yeah. Cuz they, they, instead of following the plan or having exactly everything planned out for them, they wanna just go out and do whatever they want on any given day and that leads to them not making the progress that they want, which actually makes them feel stuck and restricted. So it's like this vicious cycle. It's like, oh, I don't, I don't need a training planner, or I don't want a training plan because that feels too restrictive. I wanna be able to go out and do what I wanna do. But then you're not making the progress that you wanna make so [00:43:00] you feel stuck and restricted and. Round and round you go. Right? And so what we want you guys to understand is that a plan actually gives you more freedom. Yeah. [00:43:09] Kevin: Because a plan doesn't have to be, this is exactly what you need to do at eight o'clock in the morning. Yeah. And then this is what you're doing at nine 30. And like it depends on what works for you. Very good point is your plan needs to have enough structure that. it, that the structure actually gives you freedom. Mm-hmm. , it has enough kind of constrictions to it, enough rules that you're following that you're like, oh, well as long as I follow those rules over the course of the week, I can almost move things wherever I want. Mm-hmm. , like, I like It's is like matrix style. Yeah. Like there are certain rules that that exist and there's other rules that can be bent and there's some rules that can be just completely ignored. Mm-hmm. , but within some essentially framework, well, that's how training plans work. There has to be an overall framework, right? That everything exists in, but then you know, there's [00:44:00] some rules that you can bend a little bit and there's some rules that you can move and adjust some plans a little bit. [00:44:04] Angie: There is no spoon. [00:44:05] Kevin: There is no spoon. [00:44:06] Angie: Right. Because there is no hard, there are no hard and fast rules for what makes a perfect training plan. Okay? The perfect training plan for you is the one that makes you feel the most free, that gives you the most freedom to go out and actually see progress and actually work into your lifestyle and to with your priorities and with what you want to achieve because there is something so freeing about not having to figure it out every day, right? The, A plan can give you freedom of mind because you know exactly what you need to do every day. You don't have to try to figure it out. You don't have to think about it. You just need to go out and execute, and there are so many, there's so much freedom that comes from that. There's something, you know, there's so many different studies out there about how many decisions the average human makes per day, and it's somewhere between 6,000 and like [00:45:00] 80,000. Like the range of like number of decisions that we make, it's a lot per day's so huge, right? [00:45:05] Kevin: I try and make as few as possible. We've actually had this discussion this morning. , Angie makes all decisions as we're getting ready for school. She literally wakes up all the other humans in the house and then prepares food for the small people. I do nothing. Like I get my, you get yourself ready. I get my own food for lunch and breakfast and kind of say hi to everybody else in the house. That's it. That's my, that's what I'm responsible for. Angie's responsible for every other thing that takes place. [00:45:32] Angie: And it becomes a lot, you know, but like a lot, that's why I've also created a structure for school lunches. Yes. This is actually a, a perfect example, right? I know that every day my kids get a main course. So that could either be, you know, maybe it's chicken nuggets one day it used to be chicken nugget Friday, but it's lent now. So we have chicken nuggets on Thursday now, chicken nugget Thursday. We don't eat meat on Friday for the, the next six, six weeks. You know, ham, rollups, like [00:46:00] salami, they, they can like a little charcuterie in there, but they have like a main item that's, that's kind of the, the main, main event. And then they get a fruit and then they get a vegetable. And so I just have to like, okay, I have to just fulfill these three categories. Yep. And that makes it easier versus like, okay, I have to pack a lunch. What do we have? It's like boom, boom, boom. Check, check, check. Yep. So creating that structure makes the lunch packing process much easier and many less decisions have to be made. I have to make a couple, but [00:46:28] Kevin: You have to make a couple but you have a, you have a guideline. Yeah. Same thing happens with my particular training week. I actually don't have the, the laid out structure all week long of this is exactly what I'm doing on each day. Yeah. I know this is what I'm gonna accomplish over the week. Mm-hmm. , I know that I'm probably going to lift on Tuesday and Friday, and I don't, when I know that I'm lifting, I just follow exactly what the plan says. Mm-hmm. , like, I follow Angie's Lifting plan. I do this, this, this, and this. I have it listed. This is exactly what I lifted [00:47:00] last week, so this is what I'm going to lift this week. No thinking on that. But like my, my speed workout is gonna fall somewhere in the middle of the week. Mm-hmm. , depending on how other days go, depending on if I get enough sleep the night before, it can kind of get moved around. Mm-hmm. . And then what it is also kind of depends on how I'm feeling that particular day. Like, do I feel like my legs are gonna get some good turnover? Then I'm gonna push the higher end speed. Am I just dragging this week? Has it just been mentally a tough week? I'm gonna try some workouts that are mentally easier for me. Mm-hmm. , because I'm also kind of far removed from my next race also. So I have even greater freedom in that. [00:47:36] Angie: Right. You have more freedom because you don't have that like very specific race right now that you're training for. Like you're in more of a base building more mode. Right now you're in a strength building, so it's important for you to still maintain certain mileage, certain speed. Yeah. But that's not the focus of what you're doing right now, and it's more of that strength so you're, you're very closely following your strength plan. Yes. Because that is the focus. Yeah. So that's what you foc you [00:48:00] focus on executing. And so the beauty of this training plan, or any training plan really is that you just figure it out once and then you just have to follow it. Yeah. And you can modify. And so Kevin likes his to be a little bit looser. I am more structured with my training plan. I do an easy run on Mondays. I do a speed workout on Tuesdays. I lift on Wednesdays, I do a run on Thursdays. And depending on what I'm training for, like if it's a base building, it'll probably be just another easy run. if my legs are feeling really good and I wanna throw in some extra speed that week, I can do that, depending on what my training load looks like. Or if I'm training for a race. Then I'll throw a second speed workout in that week. And then, Friday's my rest day. Saturday's my long run, and Sunday is a strength day, so I know exactly what I'm doing every single day. I don't have to figure it out. I don't have to know, you know, well, okay, what am I gonna do today? Like, I already know, this is just my week. And that structure just gives me so much freedom [00:49:00] because I don't have to think about it all the time. And that's why I love following a training plan. I just look at it, I'm like, okay, well this is what I'm doing today, or this is what I'm doing tomorrow. [00:49:08] Kevin: Right. And then if something comes up because life comes up. Yeah. This is the real Life runners podcast stuff comes up. Having a, a more laid out plan for you actually gives you greater freedom to adjust. Yes. The more clear your plan is, like, oh, well I do this on Monday, I do this on Tuesday, do this on Wednesday. Tuesday just exploded in my life, so I don't have a run on Tuesday anymore. Mm-hmm. , I don't have a run, I don't have a time for a strength. There's like, the kids are doing this, this and the other thing, and this one is sick and I don't have Tuesday. Yeah. So now looking at my time, where am I gonna move Tuesday to, mm-hmm. I don't have to like, now guess my whole week. It's like, okay, do I move Tuesday or do I just skip Tuesday? and then, you know, it gives you some options that you can work with. Mm-hmm. , and then you go from there, like having the plan is you're set up to being able to make just one more [00:50:00] decision. Do I move it, do I skip it? [00:50:01] Angie: Yeah. Because you have guideposts Yes. You have guiding principles that allow you to make that decision and not feel bad about it. Right. Like if you do decide, okay, this one I'm just not gonna be able to fit in based on what else is going on the rest of the week, then I just have to drop this. You can let go of that judgment or of that guilt for skipping a workout and saying, okay, but I might miss this one, but I've got the rest of the week planned out. I'm, I'm good to go. I think that following a plan. also gives you the freedom of progress because you put in the work and then you get results. And those results are not always linear. Those, those results are not a math equation, right? It's not like if I follow this plan to the T, this is exactly what's going to happen. I'm for sure 100% going to run. That's sub two hour, half marathon. That's not what we mean, but if you're following a plan, you should be seeing results. And there's a lot of freedom in that, knowing that if I'm putting [00:51:00] in the work I am, Going to achieve a certain outcome. I'm, I'm actually going to see something. It might not be the exact result that I want. It might not be the exact timeline that I want, but I will still be moving in the right direction. [00:51:14] Kevin: Yeah. And you know, this leads to a couple of of good examples that you have put out here, which is another PR that I didn't get to. No, I'm kidding. [00:51:20] Angie: No, another good example of that, like smokes me in all prs. So, you know, [00:51:26] Kevin: it's fine. [00:51:27] Angie: There's always that. [00:51:28] Kevin: Not, not, if we tried to plank off against each other, that would not even be close. No, I've got you on that. All right, so great example here is a school handbook. I have been part of trying to recreate the school handbook at my school. I think you brought this one up on behalf of the girls, but within the school handbook. I think it's over a hundred pages. I think it's 146 pages long. Yikes. Because it provides very clear expectations. Mm-hmm. , all of the scenarios that could be laid out, they're all there. These the exact guidelines under this scenario. So there's no gray area. Yeah, there's no like, well, I wasn't quite [00:52:00] sure. Oh really? Because here on page 123, it says exactly what was supposed to happen. Mm-hmm. . It provides clarity. Yeah. And clarity. Well, people are like, oh, I feel super restrictive from that. No, no, no. Clarity means you don't have to think about it. That provides a whole lot of that freedom of mind that we've talked about here is it's very clear what it is that you are going to do or are not going to do. [00:52:19] Angie: Yeah, and I think that there are the, we still maintain a freedom of choice no matter. Plan we have in place good points. No matter, you know what expectations there are, we always maintain a freedom to choose. We always have the freedom to follow that plan or to not follow that plan. That is a given choice every single day. But if you decide, no, no, no, this is what I want. Now here's the freedom, you know that I just have to follow this and then I know that I'm gonna be not, I don't wanna say doing the right thing, but on the right path. [00:52:53] Kevin: In terms of like school handbook. Yes. Yes. If I would like to not get a detention, I just follow the rules, laid out in the handbook, boom done. [00:53:00] If I want to aim in the direction of a race pr, I'd like to run a farther distance. Here's the plan, here's the path. If I follow the steps, yeah, I might not get exactly to the goal, but I know that I'm gonna make solid progress towards that goal. [00:53:12] Angie: Yeah, and the other thing I think about too, when I think about how structure can provide freedom is like, A clear job description. Like if you are going into a job and you know exactly what you're responsible, responsible for, and you have clear markers of success, that's gonna be a lot easier for you to do your job and to have freedom within that job because you're like, okay, I know that I am responsible for x, y, z metrics, so how am I gonna get to that? And it, it, it kind of gives you that freedom again to maybe explore a little bit depending on what you're doing. Of course. Like if you're a factory worker on a, an assembly line, you, you not a whole lot not exploration there. Yeah. Like you're, you're responsible for that one thing. Right. But I think that it can make our jobs a lot [00:54:00] easier because you understand what you're supposed to do every day. So how would that job be if you didn't know what you were supposed to be doing every day? And I think that that's what makes entrepreneurship so tough. A lot of people go into business and wanna become an entrepreneur or start their own business because they think it's going to give them more freedom. And it does in a lot of ways, right? I have the freedom to choose what I do every single day. I have the freedom to help whoever I wanna help, but the choices are so many, so broad. A lot of people feel very like stuck and overwhelmed because it can be very overwhelming to try to just decide, okay, well what kind of business am I gonna start? Am I gonna have a coffee shop? Am I gonna start a coaching business? Like the possibilities are endless. And when possibilities are endless, though that seems like the definition of freedom. Of freedom, it can actually make you feel very stuck because you're not sure what direction to go. [00:54:59] Kevin: And you're [00:55:00] not very satisfied. Like this is something that I just read the other day and I tried to figure out where, like whose Instagram I, I saw this off of, but it was talking about like job satisfaction. And they said one of the biggest keys to job satisfaction is employees knowing what is expected of them. Mm-hmm. having a very clear job description is you're responsible for this, this, and this. And then, Not having managers just like hover over them and micromanage. Just saying, these are your responsibilities. And then having the expectation that those responsibilities are gonna get taken care of. And the opposite of it, having really vague boundaries of what, like success at this job does leads some of the greatest levels of job dissatisfaction. Some of the mm-hmm. The greatest, like burnout and, and desire to quit the job. [00:55:45] Angie: Yeah. But how do you think satisfaction links to freedom then? [00:55:49] Kevin: I think the more freedom you feel within your job. Like I, there are restrictions I have within my job. Mm-hmm. , like, there just are like, I have to be in the classroom. Like, I can't [00:56:00] just be like, eh, you know what? For a third period today, I feel like, coffee break. Like, that's just not how it works. Yeah. There's going to be kids that show up. So there are certain rules that I have to follow. There's state standards, so we have to be able to cover certain material and stuff like that. Right. But, outside of like, here's overall what needs to get covered. No one tells me what needs to get covered on Tuesday of the third week of school. Yeah. Like I don't have that. No one's checking in on me on like a daily basis to make sure that I've Oh, have you given, have you given your first test of the semester? Mm-hmm. , have you given your second at this point, like, that's not where it's at. It's you need to make sure that the kids learn this stuff. Go for it. Mm-hmm. And that's essentially what I've got. And then I have a lot of support coming from the people around me, which is, yeah, kinda the benefit of having a coach also is they kind of give you like a good path and then help support you when other issues come up. [00:56:49] Angie: Yeah. So apparently our, our wonderful dog here, if you guys can hear, I don't know if, because Zoom has a very good filter. Like I, hopefully there's not getting a lot of squeaks under the, we we record on Zoom our, our podcast. So [00:57:00] hopefully you guys aren't hearing all of the squeakiness. But of course our dog decided now is the time to, to play with this doggy toy. But anyway, I think it all kind of comes down to how you want to define freedom in your life and, you might think that freedom means having the choice to do whatever you want, whenever you want. And I mean, quite honestly, we all have that choice, right? Yes, we do. Like we all can choose, like you could choose not to go to work tomorrow. That's true. Like you have that choice, but then the consequences of that choice would come after it. Like, exactly. You would probably get fired, which means that you wouldn't get a paycheck, which means that that would affect, you know, the, our, our family's finances. Like there are consequences of all of those choices. [00:57:39] Kevin: I'm not gonna be p be able to pay, raise entry fees. [00:57:42] Angie: Ultimately that's what it comes down to is I can't pay the race entry fees. But you do have the freedom Yes. To make that choice. And I think that it's about how we look at freedom and how we find freedom in our life. And we think that running can help you with that freedom to give you the freedom to explore within yourself, the freedom to [00:58:00] explore the world around you, the freedom to set big goals and challenge yourself and that a plan can give you the freedom to go out and execute the freedom of mind that you don't have to think about it. The freedom, knowing that you are doing something that is good for you, that's going to help give you the great

About KevinKevin Miller is currently the global General Manager for Amazon Simple Storage Service (S3), an object storage service that offers industry-leading scalability, data availability, security, and performance. Prior to this role, Kevin has had multiple leadership roles within AWS, including as the General Manager for Amazon S3 Glacier, Director of Engineering for AWS Virtual Private Cloud, and engineering leader for AWS Virtual Private Network and AWS Direct Connect. Kevin was also Technical Advisor to the Senior Vice President for AWS Utility Computing. Kevin is a graduate of Carnegie Mellon University with a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science.Links Referenced: snark.cloud/shirt: https://snark.cloud/shirt aws.amazon.com/s3: https://aws.amazon.com/s3 TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is brought to us in part by our friends at Datadog. Datadog is a SaaS monitoring and security platform that enables full-stack observability for modern infrastructure and applications at every scale. Datadog enables teams to see everything: dashboarding, alerting, application performance monitoring, infrastructure monitoring, UX monitoring, security monitoring, dog logos, and log management, in one tightly integrated platform. With 600-plus out-of-the-box integrations with technologies including all major cloud providers, databases, and web servers, Datadog allows you to aggregate all your data into one platform for seamless correlation, allowing teams to troubleshoot and collaborate together in one place, preventing downtime and enhancing performance and reliability. Get started with a free 14-day trial by visiting datadoghq.com/screaminginthecloud, and get a free t-shirt after installing the agent.Corey: Managing shards. Maintenance windows. Overprovisioning. ElastiCache bills. I know, I know. It's a spooky season and you're already shaking. It's time for caching to be simpler. Momento Serverless Cache lets you forget the backend to focus on good code and great user experiences. With true autoscaling and a pay-per-use pricing model, it makes caching easy. No matter your cloud provider, get going for free at gomomento.co/screaming. That's GO M-O-M-E-N-T-O dot co slash screaming.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Right now, as I record this, we have just kicked off our annual charity t-shirt fundraiser. This year's shirt showcases S3 as the eighth wonder of the world. And here to either defend or argue the point—we're not quite sure yet—is Kevin Miller, AWS's vice president and general manager for Amazon S3. Kevin, thank you for agreeing to suffer the slings and arrows that are no doubt going to be interpreted, misinterpreted, et cetera, for the next half hour or so.Kevin: Oh, Corey, thanks for having me. And happy to do that, and really flattered for you to be thinking about S3 in this way. So more than happy to chat with you.Corey: It's absolutely one of those services that is foundational to the cloud. It was the first AWS service that was put into general availability, although the beta folks are going to argue back and forth about no, no, that was SQS instead. I feel like now that Mai-Lan handles both SQS and S3 as part of her portfolio, she is now the final arbiter of that. I'm sure that's an argument for a future day. But it's impossible to imagine cloud without S3.Kevin: I definitely think that's true. It's hard to imagine cloud, actually, with many of our foundational services, including SQS, of course, but we are—yes, we were the first generally available service with S3. And pretty happy with our anniversary being Pi Day, 3/14.Corey: I'm also curious, your own personal trajectory has been not necessarily what folks would expect. You were the general manager of Amazon Glacier, and now you're the general manager and vice president of S3. So, I've got to ask, because there are conflicting reports on this depending upon what angle you look at, are Glacier and S3 the same thing?Kevin: Yes, I was the general manager for S3 Glacier prior to coming over to S3 proper, and the answer is no, they are not the same thing. We certainly have a number of technologies where we're able to use those technologies both on S3 and Glacier, but there are certainly a number of things that are very distinct about Glacier and give us that ability to hit the ultra-low price points that we do for Glacier Deep Archive being as low as $1 per terabyte-month. And so, that definitely—there's a lot of actual ingenuity up and down the stack, from hardware to software, everywhere in between, to really achieve that with Glacier. But then there's other spots where S3 and Glacier have very similar needs, and then, of course, today many customers use Glacier through S3 as a storage class in S3, and so that's a great way to do that. So, there's definitely a lot of shared code, but certainly, when you get into it, there's [unintelligible 00:04:59] to both of them.Corey: I ran a number of obnoxiously detailed financial analyses, and they all came away with, unless you have a very specific very nuanced understanding of your data lifecycle and/or it is less than 30 or 60 days depending upon a variety of different things, the default S3 storage class you should be using for virtually anything is Intelligent Tiering. That is my purely economic analysis of it. Do you agree with that? Disagree with that? And again, I understand that all of these storage classes are like your children, and I am inviting you to tell me which one of them is your favorite, but I'm absolutely prepared to do that.Kevin: Well, we love Intelligent Tiering because it is very simple; customers are able to automatically save money using Intelligent Tiering for data that's not being frequently accessed. And actually, since we launched it a few years ago, we've already saved customers more than $250 million using Intelligent Tiering. So, I would say today, it is our default recommendation in almost every case. I think that the cases where we would recommend another storage class as the primary storage class tend to be specific to the use case where—and particularly for use cases where customers really have a good understanding of the access patterns. And we saw some customers do for their certain dataset, they know that it's going to be heavily accessed for a fixed period of time, or this data is actually for archival, it'll never be accessed, or very rarely if ever access, just maybe in an emergency.And those kinds of use cases, I think actually, customers are probably best to choose one of the specific storage classes where they're, sort of, paying that the lower cost from day one. But again, I would say for the vast majority of cases that we see, the data access patterns are unpredictable and customers like the flexibility of being able to very quickly retrieve the data if they decide they need to use it. But in many cases, they'll save a lot of money as the data is not being accessed, and so, Intelligent Tiering is a great choice for those cases.Corey: I would take it a step further and say that even when customers believe that they are going to be doing a deeper analysis and they have a better understanding of their data flow patterns than Intelligent Tiering would, in practice, I see that they rarely do anything about it. It's one of those things where they're like, “Oh, yeah, we're going to set up our own lifecycle policies real soon now,” whereas, just switch it over to Intelligent Tiering and never think about it again. People's time is worth so much more than the infrastructure they're working on in almost every case. It doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense unless you have a very intentioned, very urgent reason to go and do that stuff by hand in most cases.Kevin: Yeah, that's right. I think I agree with you, Corey. And certainly, that is the recommendation we lead with customers.Corey: In previous years, our charity t-shirt has focused on other areas of AWS, and one of them was based upon a joke that I've been telling for a while now, which is that the best database in the world is Route 53 and storing TXT records inside of it. I don't know if I ever mentioned this to you or not, but the first iteration of that joke was featuring around S3. The challenge that I had with it is that S3 Select is absolutely a thing where you can query S3 with SQL which I don't see people doing anymore because Athena is the easier, more, shall we say, well-articulated version of all of that. And no, no, that joke doesn't work because it's actually true. You can use S3 as a database. Does that statement fill you with dread? Regret? Am I misunderstanding something? Or are you effectively running a giant subversive database?Kevin: Well, I think that certainly when most customers think about a database, they think about a collection of technology that's applied for given problems, and so I wouldn't count S3 as providing the whole range of functionality that would really make up a database. But I think that certainly a lot of the primitives and S3 Select as a great example of a primitive are available in S3. And we're looking at adding, you know, additional primitives going forward to make it possible to, you know, to build a database around S3. And as you see, other AWS services have done that in many ways. For example, obviously with Amazon Redshift having a lot of capability now to just directly access and use data in S3 and make that a super seamless so that you can then run data warehousing type queries on top of S3 and on top of your other datasets.So, I certainly think it's a great building block. And one other thing I would actually just say that you may not know, Corey, is that one of the things over the last couple of years we've been doing a lot more with S3 is actually working to directly contribute improvements to open-source connector software that uses S3, to make available automatically some of the performance improvements that can be achieved either using both the AWS SDK, and also using things like S3 Select. So, we started with a few of those things with Select; you're going to see more of that coming, most likely. And some of that, again, the idea there as you may not even necessarily know you're using Select, but when we can identify that it will improve performance, we're looking to be able to contribute those kinds of improvements directly—or we are contributing those directly to those open-source packages. So, one thing I would definitely recommend customers and developers do is have a capability of sort of keeping that software up-to-date because although it might seem like those are sort of one-and-done kind of software integrations, there's actually almost continuous improvement now going on, and around things like that capability, and then others we come out with.Corey: What surprised me is just how broadly S3 has been adopted by a wide variety of different clients' software packages out there. Back when I was running production environments in anger, I distinctly remember in one Ubuntu environment, we wound up installing a specific package that was designed to teach apt how to retrieve packages and its updates from S3, which was awesome. I don't see that anymore, just because it seems that it is so easy to do it now, just with the native features that S3 offers, as well as an awful lot of software under the hood has learned to directly recognize S3 as its own thing, and can react accordingly.Kevin: And just do the right thing. Exactly. No, we certainly see a lot of that. So that's, you know—I mean, obviously making that simple for end customers to use and achieve what they're trying to do, that's the whole goal.Corey: It's always odd to me when I'm talking to one of my clients who is looking to understand and optimize their AWS bill to see outliers in either direction when it comes to S3 itself. When they're driving large S3 bills as in a majority of their spend, it's, okay, that is very interesting. Let's dive into that. But almost more interesting to me is when it is effectively not being used at all. When, oh, we're doing everything with EBS volumes or EFS.And again, those are fine services. I don't have any particular problem with them anymore, but the problem I have is that the cloud long ago took what amounts to an economic vote. There's a tax savings for storing data in an object store the way that you—and by extension, most of your competitors—wind up pricing this, versus the idea of on a volume basis where you have to pre-provision things, you don't get any form of durability that extends beyond the availability zone boundary. It just becomes an awful lot of, “Well, you could do it this way. But it gets really expensive really quickly.”It just feels wild to me that there is that level of variance between S3 just sort of raw storage basis, economically, as well as then just the, frankly, ridiculous levels of durability and availability that you offer on top of that. How did you get there? Was the service just mispriced at the beginning? Like oh, we dropped to zero and probably should have put that in there somewhere.Kevin: Well, no, I wouldn't call it mispriced. I think that the S3 came about when we took a—we spent a lot of time looking at the architecture for storage systems, and knowing that we wanted a system that would provide the durability that comes with having three completely independent data centers and the elasticity and capability where, you know, customers don't have to provision the amount of storage they want, they can simply put data and the system keeps growing. And they can also delete data and stop paying for that storage when they're not using it. And so, just all of that investment and sort of looking at that architecture holistically led us down the path to where we are with S3.And we've definitely talked about this. In fact, in Peter's keynote at re:Invent last year, we talked a little bit about how the system is designed under the hood, and one of the thing you realize is that S3 gets a lot of the benefits that we do by just the overall scale. The fact that it is—I think the stat is that at this point more than 10,000 customers have data that's stored on more than a million hard drives in S3. And that's how you get the scale and the capability to do is through massive parallelization. Where customers that are, you know, I would say building more traditional architectures, those are inherently typically much more siloed architectures with a relatively small-scale overall, and it ends up with a lot of resource that's provisioned at small-scale in sort of small chunks with each resource, that you never get to that scale where you can start to take advantage of the some is more than the greater of the parts.And so, I think that's what the recognition was when we started out building S3. And then, of course, we offer that as an API on top of that, where customers can consume whatever they want. That is, I think, where S3, at the scale it operates, is able to do certain things, including on the economics, that are very difficult or even impossible to do at a much smaller scale.Corey: One of the more egregious clown-shoe statements that I hear from time to time has been when people will come to me and say, “We've built a competitor to S3.” And my response is always one of those, “Oh, this should be good.” Because when people say that, they generally tend to be focusing on one or maybe two dimensions that doesn't work for a particular use case as well as it could. “Okay, what was your story around why this should be compared to S3?” “Well, it's an object store. It has full S3 API compatibility.” “Does it really because I have to say, there are times where I'm not entirely convinced that S3 itself has full compatibility with the way that its API has been documented.”And there's an awful lot of magic that goes into this too. “Okay, great. You're running an S3 competitor. Great. How many buildings does it live in?” Like, “Well, we have a problem with the s at the end of that word.” It's, “Okay, great. If it fits on my desk, it is not a viable S3 competitor. If it fits in a single zip code, it is probably not a viable S3 competitor.” Now, can it be an object store? Absolutely. Does it provide a new interface to some existing data someone might have? Sure why not. But I think that, oh, it's S3 compatible, is something that gets tossed around far too lightly by folks who don't really understand what it is that drives S3 and makes it special.Kevin: Yeah, I mean, I would say certainly, there's a number of other implementations of the S3 API, and frankly we're flattered that customers recognize and our competitors and others recognize the simplicity of the API and go about implementing it. But to your point, I think that there's a lot more; it's not just about the API, it's really around everything surrounding S3 from, as you mentioned, the fact that the data in S3 is stored in three independent availability zones, all of which that are separated by kilometers from each other, and the resilience, the automatic failover, and the ability to withstand an unlikely impact to one of those facilities, as well as the scalability, and you know, the fact that we put a lot of time and effort into making sure that the service continues scaling with our customers need. And so, I think there's a lot more that goes into what is S3. And oftentimes just in a straight-up comparison, it's sort of purely based on just the APIs and generally a small set of APIs, in addition to those intangibles around—or not intangibles, but all of the ‘-ilities,' right, the elasticity and the durability, and so forth that I just talked about. In addition to all that also, you know, certainly what we're seeing for customers is as they get into the petabyte and tens of petabytes, hundreds of petabytes scale, their need for the services that we provide to manage that storage, whether it's lifecycle and replication, or things like our batch operations to help update and to maintain all the storage, those become really essential to customers wrapping their arms around it, as well as visibility, things like Storage Lens to understand, what storage do I have? Who's using it? How is it being used?And those are all things that we provide to help customers manage at scale. And certainly, you know, oftentimes when I see claims around S3 compatibility, a lot of those advanced features are nowhere to be seen.Corey: I also want to call out that a few years ago, Mai-Lan got on stage and talked about how, to my recollection, you folks have effectively rebuilt S3 under the hood into I think it was 235 distinct microservices at the time. There will not be a quiz on numbers later, I'm assuming. But what was wild to me about that is having done that for services that are orders of magnitude less complex, it absolutely is like changing the engine on a car without ever slowing down on the highway. Customers didn't know that any of this was happening until she got on stage and announced it. That is wild to me. I would have said before this happened that there was no way that would have been possible except it clearly was. I have to ask, how did you do that in the broad sense?Kevin: Well, it's true. A lot of the underlying infrastructure that's been part of S3, both hardware and software is, you know, you wouldn't—if someone from S3 in 2006 came and looked at the system today, they would probably be very disoriented in terms of understanding what was there because so much of it has changed. To answer your question, the long and short of it is a lot of testing. In fact, a lot of novel testing most recently, particularly with the use of formal logic and what we call automated reasoning. It's also something we've talked a fair bit about in re:Invent.And that is essentially where you prove the correctness of certain algorithms. And we've used that to spot some very interesting, the one-in-a-trillion type cases that S3 scale happens regularly, that you have to be ready for and you have to know how the system reacts, even in all those cases. I mean, I think one of our engineers did some calculations that, you know, the number of potential states for S3, sort of, exceeds the number of atoms in the universe or something so crazy. But yet, using methods like automated reasoning, we can test that state space, we can understand what the system will do, and have a lot of confidence as we begin to swap, you know, pieces of the system.And of course, nothing in S3 scale happens instantly. It's all, you know, I would say that for a typical engineering effort within S3, there's a certain amount of effort, obviously, in making the change or in preparing the new software, writing the new software and testing it, but there's almost an equal amount of time that goes into, okay, and what is the process for migrating from System A to System B, and that happens over a timescale of months, if not years, in some cases. And so, there's just a lot of diligence that goes into not just the new systems, but also the process of, you know, literally, how do I swap that engine on the system. So, you know, it's a lot of really hard working engineers that spent a lot of time working through these details every day.Corey: I still view S3 through the lens of it is one of the easiest ways in the world to wind up building a static web server because you basically stuff the website files into a bucket and then you check a box. So, it feels on some level though, that it is about as accurate as saying that S3 is a database. It can be used or misused or pressed into service in a whole bunch of different use cases. What have you seen from customers that has, I guess, taught you something you didn't expect to learn about your own service?Kevin: Oh, I'd say we have those [laugh]  meetings pretty regularly when customers build their workloads and have unique patterns to it, whether it's the type of data they're retrieving and the access pattern on the data. You know, for example, some customers will make heavy use of our ability to do [ranged gets 00:22:47] on files and [unintelligible 00:22:48] objects. And that's pretty good capability, but that can be one where that's very much dependent on the type of file, right, certain files have structure, as far as you know, a header or footer, and that data is being accessed in a certain order. Oftentimes, those may also be multi-part objects, and so making use of the multi-part features to upload different chunks of a file in parallel. And you know, also certainly when customers get into things like our batch operations capability where they can literally write a Lambda function and do what they want, you know, we've seen some pretty interesting use cases where customers are running large-scale operations across, you know, billions, sometimes tens of billions of objects, and this can be pretty interesting as far as what they're able to do with them.So, for something is sort of what you might—you know, as simple and basics, in some sense, of GET and PUT API, just all the capability around it ends up being pretty interesting as far as how customers apply it and the different workloads they run on it.Corey: So, if you squint hard enough, what I'm hearing you tell me is that I can view all of this as, “Oh, yeah. S3 is also compute.” And it feels like that as a fast-track to getting a question wrong on one of the certification exams. But I have to ask, from your point of view, is S3 storage? And whether it's yes or no, what gets you excited about the space that it's in?Kevin: Yeah well, I would say S3 is not compute, but we have some great compute services that are very well integrated with S3, which excites me as well as we have things like S3 Object Lambda, where we actually handle that integration with Lambda. So, you're writing Lambda functions, we're executing them on the GET path. And so, that's a pretty exciting feature for me. But you know, to sort of take a step back, what excites me is I think that customers around the world, in every industry, are really starting to recognize the value of data and data at large scale. You know, I think that actually many customers in the world have terabytes or more of data that sort of flows through their fingers every day that they don't even realize.And so, as customers realize what data they have, and they can capture and then start to analyze and make ultimately make better business decisions that really help drive their top line or help them reduce costs, improve costs on whether it's manufacturing or, you know, other things that they're doing. That's what really excites me is seeing those customers take the raw capability and then apply it to really just to transform how they not just how their business works, but even how they think about the business. Because in many cases, transformation is not just a technical transformation, it's people and cultural transformation inside these organizations. And that's pretty cool to see as it unfolds.Corey: One of the more interesting things that I've seen customers misunderstand, on some level, has been a number of S3 releases that focus around, “Oh, this is for your data lake.” And I've asked customers about that. “So, what's your data lake strategy?” “Well, we don't have one of those.” “You have, like, eight petabytes and climbing in S3? What do you call that?” It's like, “Oh, yeah, that's just a bunch of buckets we dump things into. Some are logs of our assets and the rest.” It's—Kevin: Right.Corey: Yeah, it feels like no one thinks of themselves as having anything remotely resembling a structured place for all of the data that accumulates at a company.Kevin: Mm-hm.Corey: There is an evolution of people learning that oh, yeah, this is in fact, what it is that we're doing, and this thing that they're talking about does apply to us. But it almost feels like a customer communication challenge, just because, I don't know about you, but with my legacy AWS account, I have dozens of buckets in there that I don't remember what the heck they're for. Fortunately, you folks don't charge by the bucket, so I can smile, nod, remain blissfully ignorant, but it does make me wonder from time to time.Kevin: Yeah, no, I think that what you hear there is actually pretty consistent with what the reality is for a lot of customers, which is in distributed organizations, I think that's bound to happen, you have different teams that are working to solve problems, and they are collecting data to analyze, they're creating result datasets and they're storing those datasets. And then, of course, priorities can shift, and you know, and there's not necessarily the day-to-day management around data that we might think would be expected. I feel [we 00:26:56] sort of drew an architecture on a whiteboard. And so, I think that's the reality we are in. And we will be in, largely forever.I mean, I think that at a smaller-scale, that's been happening for years. So, I think that, one, I think that there's a lot of capability just being in the cloud. At the very least, you can now start to wrap your arms around it, right, where used to be that it wasn't even possible to understand what all that data was because there's no way to centrally inventory it well. In AWS with S3, with inventory reports, you can get a list of all your storage and we are going to continue to add capability to help customers get their arms around what they have, first off; understand how it's being used—that's where things like Storage Lens really play a big role in understanding exactly what data is being accessed and not. We're definitely listening to customers carefully around this, and I think when you think about broader data management story, I think that's a place that we're spending a lot of time thinking right now about how do we help customers get their arms around it, make sure that they know what's the categorization of certain data, do I have some PII lurking here that I need to be very mindful of?And then how do I get to a world where I'm—you know, I won't say that it's ever going to look like the perfect whiteboard picture you might draw on the wall. I don't think that's really ever achievable, but I think certainly getting to a point where customers have a real solid understanding of what data they have and that the right controls are in place around all that data, yeah, I think that's directionally where I see us heading.Corey: As you look around how far the service has come, it feels like, on some level, that there were some, I guess, I don't want to say missteps, but things that you learned as you went along. Like, back when the service was in beta, for example, there was no per-request charge. To my understanding that was changed, in part because people were trying to use it as a file system, and wow, that suddenly caused a tremendous amount of load on some of the underlying systems. You originally launched with a BitTorrent endpoint as an option so that people could download through peer-to-peer approaches for large datasets and turned out that wasn't really the way the internet evolved, either. And I'm curious, if you were to have to somehow build this off from scratch, are there any other significant changes you would make in how the service was presented to customers in how people talked about it in the early days? Effectively given a mulligan, what would you do differently?Kevin: Well, I don't know, Corey, I mean, just given where it's grown to in macro terms, you know, I definitely would be worried taking a mulligan, you know, that I [laugh] would change the sort of the overarching trajectory. Certainly, I think there's a few features here and there where, for whatever reason, it was exciting at the time and really spoke to what customers at the time were thinking, but over time, you know, sort of quickly those needs move to something a little bit different. And, you know, like you said things like the BitTorrent support is one where, at some level, it seems like a great technical architecture for the internet, but certainly not something that we've seen dominate in the way things are done. Instead, you know, we've largely kind of have a world where there's a lot of caching layers, but it still ends up being largely client-server kind of connections. So, I don't think I would do a—I certainly wouldn't do a mulligan on any of the major functionality, and I think, you know, there's a few things in the details where obviously, we've learned what really works in the end. I think we learned that we wanted bucket names to really strictly conform to rules for DNS encoding. So, that was the change that was made at some point. And we would tweak that, but no major changes, certainly.Corey: One subject of some debate while we were designing this year's charity t-shirt—which, incidentally, if you're listening to this, you can pick up for yourself at snark.cloud/shirt—was the is S3 itself dependent upon S3? Because we know that every other service out there is as well, but it is interesting to come up with an idea of, “Oh, yeah. We're going to launch a whole new isolated region of S3 without S3 to lean on.” That feels like it's an almost impossible bootstrapping problem.Kevin: Well, S3 is not dependent on S3 to come up, and it's certainly a critical dependency tree that we look at and we track and make sure that we'd like to have an acyclic graph as we look at dependencies.Corey: That is such a sophisticated way to say what I learned the hard way when I was significantly younger and working in production environments: don't put the DNS servers needed to boot the hypervisor into VMs that require a working hypervisor. It's one of those oh, yeah, in hindsight, that makes perfect sense, but you learn it right after that knowledge really would have been useful.Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. And one of the terms we use for that, as well as is the idea of static stability, or that's one of the techniques that can really help with isolating a dependency is what we call static stability. We actually have an article about that in the Amazon Builder Library, which there's actually a bunch of really good articles in there from very experienced operations-focused engineers in AWS. So, static stability is one of those key techniques, but other techniques—I mean, just pure minimization of dependencies is one. And so, we were very, very thoughtful about that, particularly for that core layer.I mean, you know, when you talk about S3 with 200-plus microservices, or 235-plus microservices, I would say not all of those services are critical for every single request. Certainly, a small subset of those are required for every request, and then other services actually help manage and scale the kind of that inner core of services. And so, we look at dependencies on a service by service basis to really make sure that inner core is as minimized as possible. And then the outer layers can start to take some dependencies once you have that basic functionality up.Corey: I really want to thank you for being as generous with your time as you have been. If people want to learn more about you and about S3 itself, where should they go—after buying a t-shirt, of course.Kevin: Well, certainly buy the t-shirt. First, I love the t-shirts and the charity that you work with to do that. Obviously, for S3, it's aws.amazon.com/s3. And you can actually learn more about me. I have some YouTube videos, so you can search for me on YouTube and kind of get a sense of myself.Corey: We will put links to that into the show notes, of course. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I appreciate it.Kevin: Absolutely. Yeah. Glad to spend some time. Thanks for the questions, Corey.Corey: Kevin Miller, vice president and general manager for Amazon S3. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry, ignorant comment talking about how your S3 compatible service is going to blow everyone's socks off when it fails.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

In this special episode of The A to Z English Podcast, we talk with May, a dedicated English student and an active member of our Whatsapp group. (Link here: https://forms.gle/zKCS8y1t9jwv2KTn7)It's a great conversation, so you won't want to miss it!https://atozenglishpodcast.com/interview-with-may-fong/If you could take a minute and complete a short survey about the podcast, we would be very appreciative. You can find the survey here: https://forms.gle/HHNnnqU6U8W3DodK8We would love to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes.Intro/Outro Music by Eaters: https://freemusicarchive.org/music/eaters/the-astronomers-office/agents-in-coffee-shops/Listener Interview 001: May from MalaysiaFull TranscriptKevin: Hi everybody! Welcome to A to Z English. Today Jack and I are trying something new. We're gonna be starting to interview our listeners and we have our first listener today who is May Fong from Malaysia actually and May hi.May: Good evening!Jack: Hi!May: Good evening!Jack: Thank you for joining us. This is very cool.Kevin: Yes, thank you.May: Thank you for inviting me too!Jack: It's our pleasure yeah well yeah yeah.Kevin: I agree and because we are on an English podcast of course I'd like to know well how long have you been studying English for?May: Um yeah, obviously I'm learning English from school during my school time. That means from primary until secondary school but then um after study I have honestly I've forgotten most of my English like grammar tenses and all that okay and then I started to reinforce all my English language skills since 2020.Kevin: Oh, so just a couple years?May: Yeah. Where at that time I got a study grant from Malaysia okay it's it is basically a three-month English course so yeah I studied it and with one um e-learning company so okay yeahKevin: That's great and it's a Malaysian company?May: It is not a Malaysian company actually, it's um I can call it national company. Jack: So how long was the gap where you stopped studying English and then you started again? Was it like five years or longer than that?May: Honestly, I had not been studying English since the day I left school. I should say that so yeah I'm speaking English on a daily basis but then I just I just speak. I don't know whether what or whatever I speak is correct or not and why do we why do I say things in such a way, so yeah, I just speak English but uh I understand.Jack: So after school you continued to use English? You spoke English but you weren't studying formally until 2020? You started studying again more formally?May: Okay yeah for me I study again.Kevin: Okay and so you if you started studying a couple years ago again and first you started studying with that program right with that three-month course which is great, but now you listen to podcasts and thank you for listening to our podcast of course but what other, how do you self-study? What do you do to = help you improve?May: Okay. I will watch videos on YouTube okay basically where the moment I finished that the online class so I did I did not stop there so uh every day I will go to YouTube and then I will search for whatever video that I think interesting and important for me to learn.Kevin: Yeah and are these videos specifically English videos like English grammar pronunciation or is it just some other random video that you're interested in but it's in English?May: Um I started learning grammar learning then from there and then I search for also search for listening daily conversation vocabulary lessons and anything any I mean almost anything just anything that English language.Kevin: Sure okay and I'm curious to ask, you said you watch a lot of YouTube videos but something that you have told us is that you are visually impaired right? It's hard for you to see the screen and you have a voice screen reader reading to you which is very cool. So what do you find useful about YouTube? You're not really watching the videos, right? You're just listening to them.May: Okay on YouTube all the videos okay I can see all the video most of the video come with audio so I will just listen to the audio and then whenever there is a word that I don't understand I will read this subtitle. From there I can pick up the words. Then I will go and look into the dictionary. That's how I learn.Jack: Oh wow, so you as you watch the videos, everything that you understand you keep running the video but if you find a word that you that you're not familiar with you will look it up and find the definition and then go back to the video and then finish the video?May: Yes correct. I will pause the video and then I will check it out on the dictionary. I'll check it out in the dictionary then that's how I live.Jack: That's great! A great way to do it is checking the dictionary for anyone yeah.Kevin: Did you learn any interesting words today?May: Um not today.Kevin: That's okay, um but soon.May: Usually I will do my, I'll start learning at night time like um after 8 00 pm okay 8 pm so I'll go on YouTube and see what is interesting.Jack: And how many hours do you spend every day on learning English and watching videos or podcasts?May: Um I have no specific hours of day. About one or two hours.Kevin:  Nice! Wow, that's great. One or two hours every day is very good. I need to do more Korean every day, I do maybe two minutes, very small. That's funny, um, so May you're very busy on our Whatsapp group. How and and that's great we we love to encourage our listeners to participate I in the website. It's good to see.Jack: Yeah it's great to see and um how as uh um as a person who is visually impaired, how do you how do you do that? How do you participate do you um do you record your voice usually or do you type? I mean how does what does the what is the technology that you use to interact on our Whatsapp group?May: Okay there's a software. Basically, it's a screen reader okay um different type of software like on my laptop the software I use is called NVDA basically this this software will read whatever things appear on the screen okay. Let's say when I'm browsing a website so when I move the cursor around the software read for me okay what is currently showing on the screen whether it's a link it's a heading it's a there's some chat box of um something that I can click on to get more details things.Kevin: So, you move the cursor around the screen and it gives you a kind of uh um of mental a mental picture mental like information so you can kind of get an idea of what is on the screen well what about images. Does it also describe images as well?May: Okay it is depends on the website and the apps created by the provider. KSM created it in a very friendly way of redline user where they labels all the images with proper words so for that kind of a picture. Yes the system or the screen reader will describe but sometimes they are also challenges for me as a blind user where the I mean the provider did not label all the images graphic so that is the challenge for me.Kevin: Yeah may that's something that I've seen because for our website our A to Z English podcast website I'm the person who makes the website and so I've seen when I put up a picture or when I put something up it often tells me make a good description for blind people and so I have to remember so if if my website is not good enough yet please tell me and I will go add better descriptions but we don't have too many pictures yet.May: It is good if you can consider this people with disability. I mean the need of people with disabilities so that you know yes can also read whatever on your website.Kevin: So it is actually good. Yeah I will I will keep that in mind for people like you so thank you for the reminder.Jack: Yeah I noticed that you also like to post memes as well and uh is that is that a challenge to because uh it seems like you have you're really good at uh posting memes as well is that because the picture description is really good or okay?May: For the picture that I posted, I mean, they're all the pictures that I post every morning. I got it from a Facebook page okay yeah I mean on Facebook what I most of the picture and it can be I mean the screen reader can describe it properly so that's how I got it and I post it in the group. I share it in the group.Jack: So you search on Facebook and you find something that's funny and and interesting and then you put it into the Whatsapp group.May: Yeah I shared it if there was a group and also some of my friends like morning greetings.Kevin: That's great and why do you enjoy using our English Whatsapp group? How is that helpful for you?May: Every day okay actually I was learning English with Robin's channel. like Shaw English Daily English homework.Kevin: Yeah he's great.May: That's all very good. So from there I was you guys who always joined the what's up good job there was some bro so I I clicked the link to join the group and that's how I come into the group yeahJack: How do you uh how do you listen to the podcast? Do you listen to it on your smartphone or do you listen to it on the computer? I'm just curious. What's your favorite way to listen to a podcast?May: It can be done in both way actually but most of the time I'll listen at home. That means I will use my laptop to listen.Kevin: Uh so are you listening from our webpage?May: Yes from your webpage.Kevin: Oh that's great! That means I need to make the webpage better if you're using your own page.Jack: Blame Kevin blame Kevin.Kevin: Yes that's my um that's for me you you said that you have this special software that helps you describe the screen.Jack: And how like how long have like what was the process I I'm guess I'm wondering like when did you how long have you been visually impaired is this something that was from the time you were born or did it happen later in life? Did you lose your sight later?May: I was blind since I was born so that means when I was kid I started to learn I mean at that time there is no computer no internet right I think so we will learn for blind people. We will learn some uh braille. Have you heard about it?Kevin: Yes of course.May: Braille is a method for to assist blind people to read. It's a traditional way actually. It's a traditional way and actually it's um we are still using it until it until now the only thing is nowadays we have computer so we have um screen readers so most of the time we are using them.Kevin: Yeah and I know Jack and I talked in an episode not too long ago about technology and it's so amazing because when I was a kid the technology would be impossible for blind people to use the internet and now you browse the internet just as well as anyone else.Jack: You're a pro internet user and meme sharer and on social networks. I'm sure you're much better than I am at browsing the internet. I'm not very good with computers to be honest.Kevin: Yeah we're we're old people.May: Yeah okay they're actually this can do most of the things for blind like the light useronly sometimes there are challenges but of course overall it helps.Jack: Yeah that's what fantastic to hear. Yeah what is the what's maybe the biggest challenge um when using a screen reader? It's something that you if you if you could design your own software is there something you would change to improve it?May: The biggest challenge I could say will be when the provider created the website um as I mentioned earlier not friendly to blind users like they didn't label the image and the graphic and then one more thing is um they I mean uh for your information blind user doesn't use a mouse when navigate while navigating a computer all right so yeah so we use only keyboard only keyboard that means we have to remember most of the keyboard commands.Kevin: So you do know all of the pro commands, at least the main keyboard command the important ones?May: Right of course you'll need oh yeah when something is created on they created something where we can only click by the mouse or move around by the mouse that is the biggest challenge sureKevin: Interesting right yeah well May this is all very interesting to hear. It's so very cool that you're able even without being able to see the internet you're able to watch YouTube's from Robin's channel and you're able to listen to our podcast. That's so fantastic what the internet does for you today. I have one final question for you if because again we're an English learning podcast if you could give everyone a tip, what would you tell someone who wants to learn English how can they how can they learn what do you think was helpful?May: Um well there's a lot there's a there are a lot of free um learning channel learning tips learning exercises learning lessons on the internet so you just have to browse through it that's all you can learn okay actually yeah like The A to Z English Podcast.Kevin: Yep of course. Yeah that's great, so May, thank you very much for joining and for everyone else out there who's listening, we have a Whatsapp channel that we were talking about here and if you want to come and talk to us in our Whatsapp channel and maybe even talk to us here on an interview episode you can find all of the links and everything from our hopefully friendly website absolutely thanks very much nice to talk to you!Jack: thank you so muchWhatsapp Group Link: https://chat.whatsapp.com/H4LaiLAUc5SEiaxBp16aEpSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-a-to-z-english-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Todd: OK. Hello, Kevin?Kevin: Hi, Todd. How are you?Todd: Doing pretty good.Kevin: Good.Todd: Kevin we're gonna talk about nature.Kevin: OK.Todd: First of all could you tell the listener where we are?Kevin: Well, let's see. We are on, kind of on the side of a hill in the forest but we have a spectacular view of Mount Fuji on the other side of the valley.Todd: Yeah. It's really nice here. Why are you in this forest right now?Kevin: Well, I'm currently working and I'm teaching an intensive English course up here at the campus.. up here in the forest.Todd: Oh, nice. Do you take any walks in the woods?Kevin: Yes, I enjoy taking walks in the woods. And sometimes I even go for a jog in the woods, there's a few trails around here and there's a nice golf course as well that you can run around.Todd: OK, great! What's the best thing about being in nature? In the forest?Kevin: Well, for me it's the stress relief that it provides especially living in Tokyo which is of course one of the world's largest and most chaotic cities. It's also nice to get back out into nature sometimes and just hear the insects which obviously we can hear very clearly right now, as well as some birds and you know it's just nice to get back out into nature.Todd: I agree. OK. Thanks a lot Kevin.Kevin: You're welcome.

Todd: OK. Hello, Kevin?Kevin: Hi, Todd. How are you?Todd: Doing pretty good.Kevin: Good.Todd: Kevin we're gonna talk about nature.Kevin: OK.Todd: First of all could you tell the listener where we are?Kevin: Well, let's see. We are on, kind of on the side of a hill in the forest but we have a spectacular view of Mount Fuji on the other side of the valley.Todd: Yeah. It's really nice here. Why are you in this forest right now?Kevin: Well, I'm currently working and I'm teaching an intensive English course up here at the campus.. up here in the forest.Todd: Oh, nice. Do you take any walks in the woods?Kevin: Yes, I enjoy taking walks in the woods. And sometimes I even go for a jog in the woods, there's a few trails around here and there's a nice golf course as well that you can run around.Todd: OK, great! What's the best thing about being in nature? In the forest?Kevin: Well, for me it's the stress relief that it provides especially living in Tokyo which is of course one of the world's largest and most chaotic cities. It's also nice to get back out into nature sometimes and just hear the insects which obviously we can hear very clearly right now, as well as some birds and you know it's just nice to get back out into nature.Todd: I agree. OK. Thanks a lot Kevin.Kevin: You're welcome.

Todd: OK. Kevin, we're back here in the forest. We're gonna talk about sports.Kevin: OK. Great. I love sports.Todd: What sports do you like?Kevin: Well, my favorite sport is baseball. Obviously, I grew up and my father was a baseball player so I was always aroundbaseball.Todd: Wow.Kevin: My whole life.Todd: You mean your father was a player in the Major Leagues?Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Not only was he a player in the Major Leagues, he was fortunate enough to play in the World Series twice with the New York Mets.Todd: Wow! That's amazing.Kevin: Yeah, The Amazing Met's. 1969.Todd: Wow, that's great. Did you play baseball yourself?Kevin: Yeah, I played baseball pretty much my whole life up through college and university.Todd: OK. Why did you stop?Kevin: Well, it wasn't exactly by choice. I wasn't drafted high enough in professional baseball to.. in order for me to sign, so I ended up retiring from baseball and pursuing other things.Todd: OK. Great. Do you like any others sports?Kevin: Yeah. I actually, I enjoy all competition. You know I enjoy the other typical American sports of basketball and American football and so on, but I also try to learn about and enjoy the national sport of the countries that I'm in. For example now I'm in Japan and I've actually gotten quite into Sumo wrestling.Todd: Oh, really?Kevin: Yeah.Todd: Nice. Have you ever seen a sumo match live?Kevin: Yes, I have. I've been to two sumo bashos as they call them, or matches in Tokyo.Todd: Nice. Yeah, I wanna go. I wanna go myself.Kevin: Yeah, let's go sometime.Todd: OK. Let's do it.

Todd: OK. Kevin, we're back here in the forest. We're gonna talk about sports.Kevin: OK. Great. I love sports.Todd: What sports do you like?Kevin: Well, my favorite sport is baseball. Obviously, I grew up and my father was a baseball player so I was always aroundbaseball.Todd: Wow.Kevin: My whole life.Todd: You mean your father was a player in the Major Leagues?Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Not only was he a player in the Major Leagues, he was fortunate enough to play in the World Series twice with the New York Mets.Todd: Wow! That's amazing.Kevin: Yeah, The Amazing Met's. 1969.Todd: Wow, that's great. Did you play baseball yourself?Kevin: Yeah, I played baseball pretty much my whole life up through college and university.Todd: OK. Why did you stop?Kevin: Well, it wasn't exactly by choice. I wasn't drafted high enough in professional baseball to.. in order for me to sign, so I ended up retiring from baseball and pursuing other things.Todd: OK. Great. Do you like any others sports?Kevin: Yeah. I actually, I enjoy all competition. You know I enjoy the other typical American sports of basketball and American football and so on, but I also try to learn about and enjoy the national sport of the countries that I'm in. For example now I'm in Japan and I've actually gotten quite into Sumo wrestling.Todd: Oh, really?Kevin: Yeah.Todd: Nice. Have you ever seen a sumo match live?Kevin: Yes, I have. I've been to two sumo bashos as they call them, or matches in Tokyo.Todd: Nice. Yeah, I wanna go. I wanna go myself.Kevin: Yeah, let's go sometime.Todd: OK. Let's do it.

Todd: OK. Hello?Kevin: Hi! How you doing?Todd: I'm doing pretty good.Kevin: Good.Todd: What's your name?Kevin: My name is Kevin.Todd: Kevin. Where are you from?Kevin: I'm from Pheonix, Arizona.Todd: OK. Nice.Kevin: In the United States.Todd: Wow, were you born in Phoenix?Kevin: Actually, no. I was actually born in New York because my parents happened to be living in New York at that time. My father was a Major League baseball player and the year I was born, 1971, he was playing with the Mets in New York City. My birthday is in May, May 25th to be precise, and so my mother happened to be with my father in New York because it was baseball season. So I was actually born in New York but I grew up in Phoenix. Phoenix is what I consider to be my hometown.Todd: Wow! That's amazing. Do you remember anything about New York?Kevin: Yes. Actually, I do have a few memories because we spent probably three years there from the time I was born. Obviously, until I was about two and a half or three years, we spent the summers or the baseball season in New York. We rented a condominium on the second floor and I remember it was right across the street from La Guardia Airport. Of course, when I was a little kid, one and two years old, I used to love sitting by the kitchen windows. I even remember it was a bay window, the kind where you can roll the window open. I used to roll the window open and just watch the airplanes take off and land all day.Todd: Wow! That's cool.Kevin: Another memory I have is the people, the couple that lived below us was an elderly couple and they acted pretty much like our grandparents. I actually called them Grandma and Grandpa. Grandma Stevenson used to give me a bath in her kitchen sink because I was so small.Todd: Wow!Kevin: That she would actually give me a bath in her kitchen sink and I remember that as well.Todd: Wow, those are good memories.

Todd: OK. Hello?Kevin: Hi! How you doing?Todd: I'm doing pretty good.Kevin: Good.Todd: What's your name?Kevin: My name is Kevin.Todd: Kevin. Where are you from?Kevin: I'm from Pheonix, Arizona.Todd: OK. Nice.Kevin: In the United States.Todd: Wow, were you born in Phoenix?Kevin: Actually, no. I was actually born in New York because my parents happened to be living in New York at that time. My father was a Major League baseball player and the year I was born, 1971, he was playing with the Mets in New York City. My birthday is in May, May 25th to be precise, and so my mother happened to be with my father in New York because it was baseball season. So I was actually born in New York but I grew up in Phoenix. Phoenix is what I consider to be my hometown.Todd: Wow! That's amazing. Do you remember anything about New York?Kevin: Yes. Actually, I do have a few memories because we spent probably three years there from the time I was born. Obviously, until I was about two and a half or three years, we spent the summers or the baseball season in New York. We rented a condominium on the second floor and I remember it was right across the street from La Guardia Airport. Of course, when I was a little kid, one and two years old, I used to love sitting by the kitchen windows. I even remember it was a bay window, the kind where you can roll the window open. I used to roll the window open and just watch the airplanes take off and land all day.Todd: Wow! That's cool.Kevin: Another memory I have is the people, the couple that lived below us was an elderly couple and they acted pretty much like our grandparents. I actually called them Grandma and Grandpa. Grandma Stevenson used to give me a bath in her kitchen sink because I was so small.Todd: Wow!Kevin: That she would actually give me a bath in her kitchen sink and I remember that as well.Todd: Wow, those are good memories.

THE REFERRAL BUSINESS Tune in to this very informative conversation between Dean and Kevin Kauffman. Dean is a 30+ year veteran in the real estate business using his expertise in marketing and applying this knowledge to real estate. HOW MUCH HAS CHANGED in the REAL ESTATE BUSINESS? Dean’s reflection on how much has changed in the Real Estate world and how much hasn’t changed. In the beginning, Realtors had all of the information contained in a book and searches for properties were physical – you had to go to the open house, read the newspapers, talk to other agents. Now, everything is online and Buyers oftentimes know more than the Realtors. Back in the day, people desired getting top dollar in the least amount of time with little to no hassle. This was true 30 years ago and is still true today with the added benefit of more opportunities to make it happen. What hasn’t changed is Days on Market and the asking price percentage. (Kevin) How have you taken your Real Estate experience and your marketing experience and brought them both together? What’s really happening in the Real Estate world? (Dean) I spent 30 years to study how to crack the code of the real estate puzzle pieces of: 1. Getting listings 2. Multiplying your listings 3. Getting referrals 4. Converting leads 5. Finding Buyers. One area that is competition proof is the referral business. Dean employs the Dunbar Number and markets to his Inner Circle of 150 people defined as this – these are the people you recognize by their name, you would stop and have a conversation with them, and you know your position in their life. (Dean) So then the problem to solve is – How can you manage this ‘Relationship Profile’ as an asset for a 20% yield (which is the target and gold standard) to generate 30 referred transactions a year? For example: Take the number of repeat and referrals you had in the last year and divide by the 150 in your inner circle). Fifteen referrals yields a 10% repeat, 5 referrals yields a 3% repeat yet the goal is a 20% Return on Relationship and this requires real orchestration. 80% of referrals are passive and 20% are reactive. This makes up all referrals but leaves out the proactive referrals. What is an Orchestrated Referral Program? Ex: When showing a home in a particular neighborhood call or email a friend who lives in that neighborhood explaining what you are doing and ask if they know of anyone in that neighborhood who is interested in selling their home. This is a proactive referral. Discussion on the psychology of the herd – changing mass behavior, making people feel good to do something for you and elevating their perceived status and giving them opportunities to do so. We are all hard-wired to provide value to people in our inner circle of 150 and are constantly looking for an opportunity to add value. (Kevin) Yes, it’s like invoking the law of reciprocity. How can you make this happen? (Dean) By deconstructing the mechanics of how a referral works and orchestrating the situation in the mind of your inner circle of 150. 1. Get them to notice when a conversation about real estate is happening 2. Get them to think about you in that conversation 3. Get them to introduce you to the person they are having the conversation with. 4. Get them to keep you on their mind so you come to mind in their conversations with others What are the high probability conversations? Anyone buying, selling, moving up, downsizing, vacation home, investment home, sweat equity, winterize your home, etc.   INTRODUCTION TO THE WORLD’S GREATEST POSTCARD To stay on people’s minds, Dean sends out a postcard to his inner circle of 150 to stay on the minds of his friends. In this way, he manages his relationship portfolio asset for a 20% yield in new business by changing the mindset and conversation and programming this into the minds of his friends using the postcard as a proactive referral tool. http://theworldsmostinterestingpostcard.com/   LISTING MULTIPLIER INDEX Explanation of the Metric Index for listings. Take how many listings you obtained from one listing and divide by 10 to get an index. Each listing should yield 5 opportunities for more business: 1. Get is SOLD 2. You find a buyer for this listing 3. A buyer in interested in another property from you 4. Another listing 5. A referral from the seller before the transaction is closed   IN CLOSING (Kevin) Using the two metrics of the Listing Multiplier Index and the Return on Relationship Asset to find out where you are at in your own business and how to increase those numbers speaks to the ‘competition proof’ solution that Dean talks about. (Dean) There’s always been constant challenges in this business but the bottom line is people will gravitate to the most convenient thing. (Kevin) I learned an important lesson from you that you can’t remind people to come to your event or to refer you; speak about the 9 Word Email. (Dean) There are always two timeframes: NOW and not NOW. I am in 100% pursuit of NOW and that is where the 9 Word email came from. The old mindset of (pre) judging leads as being good or bad has been replaced with the 9 Word Email. The reality is leads are what they are (is what it is) and nothing is going to change that. We all look for the 5 Star Leads which is a compilation of people willing to engage in a dialogue, are friendly and cooperative, they know what they want, they know when they want it, and they would like us to help them get it.   How to discover the 5 Star Prospects from all the rest of your leads? Everyone has leads that have slipped through the cracks or were prejudged as not good. Gather up those leads and send the 9 Word Email which revives dead leads from NOT now to NOW. https://ilovemarketing.com/have-you-tried-a-9-word-email/ Reference links: http://www.gogoagent.com/ http://gettingreferrals.com/   DEAN JACKSON BIO There have been men throughout history who have captured ideas seemingly plucking out them out of thin air and giving them to an incredulous population. Dean Jackson is one of those men. Dean’s greatest joy in life is to find a new idea and share it with those around him. This is Dean’s unique approach to marketing. His inspirational approach to marketing is bringing new DNA to the net. His approach is to compartmentalize your business model into three phases: Before, During, and After and using a steady drip campaign finding the multipliers to launch your business into a new dimension. (Conversation is condensed and paraphrased for convenience and flow.)

Kevin Hourigan is President and CEO of Bayshore Solutions, a digital agency that started in 1996 as a branch of a managed services provider – a 3-member team building and maintaining client networks. Two years later? Thirty employees.  Decades ago, one of the Kevin's engineers developed a company website and asked 100 of the company's clients if they would be interested in a 3-page website for $500. Client responses were either “What's a website?” or “We'll never need one of those.” One client agreed to give it a try. That $500 website cost $5,000 to build, but two years later, in 1998, clients came begging for websites, which were now more profitably priced at $7,500 and up. The company failed in its attempt to go public in the late 90s and survived the dot com crash in the early 2000s. Its base of paying clients plummeted 90%. In response, the company slashed its staff from 225 to 12 in a year. Larger agencies, the ones Kevin considered as his mentors, the ones that went public . . . failed. Bayshore Solutions is one of only 2% of the digital agencies that survived the dot com collapse. When Kevin realized that what he had left of the company would never again be “an aspiring dot-commer on the verge of going public, spending money like it's going out of style with clients spending money with us like it's going out of style,” he knew it was time to rebrand. He wanted the new name to be “agnostic,” that is, not tied to any transient technology. Bayshore Web Development could become obsolete. Baysore Solutions, on the other hand, would not be tied to any here today, gone tomorrow technology. For almost 25 years, BayShore Solutions has helped clients create advertising campaigns that drive qualified traffic. It designs and develops powerful stakeholder-targeted websites with the right marketing mix to help its clients succeed. The agency markets itself as a digital expert, applying strategies horizontally across a variety of verticals, transferring experience from one vertical to another completely unrelated (and non-competing) vertical. Every solution is unique, with a balance of the “bleeding edge of new and the tested, tried, and true.” Around 90% of implementation strategies are things Bayshore KNOWS will work. The 5 to 15% that is experimental will vary depending on the phase of an industry's business cycle.  After Kevin had excellent experience working with a CEO coach, he decided to let his leadership team hire an executive team coach. The result? Tighter vision and a better definition of core values (working together, winning together, and solving problems together), with the team all learning together, rather than receiving the information from “an informed Kevin. He says, “Having a team coach, we're hearing the same thing at the same time.” In response to the impact of Covid-19, Kevin explains that his company has reduced unnecessary expenses and increased its marketing budget by 50%. He says the company's strategy is to market and sell its way through the crisis, rather than trying to cut its way through. The results so far? Leads are up, traffic is up, and sales have met December's forecasts. He plans to continue operating this way and says the agency's next 90-day plan is to remove unnecessary operational expenses and reinvest that money in sales and marketing efforts.  Kevin can be found on his agency's website at: BayshoreSolutions.com or by email at: kevin@bayshoresolutions.com Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Kevin Hourigan, President and CEO of Bayshore Solutions based in Tampa, Florida. Welcome to the podcast, Kevin. KEVIN: Hey, good morning, Rob. Nice to be here. ROB: Fantastic to have you here. Why don't you start off by telling us about Bayshore Solutions and where you are excellent?  KEVIN: Appreciate that, Rob. Bayshore Solutions, we're a company that's about to celebrate our 25th year of providing services to our clients. I think what makes that special – we started this company in January of 1996, when America Online or AOL or however you might know of them was still on Version 1, and many people were still just getting introduced to the internet. As a digital agency, we've probably been around more than probably the top one percentile of the industry's experts. For almost 25 years, we've been helping our clients design and develop the correct website that's going to speak to their primary stakeholders as well as creating the advertising campaign that's going to drive qualified traffic and help our customers grow through a combination of the right website to the right audience with the right marketing mix. Enjoyed 25 years and still having fun at it. ROB: That's remarkable. Congratulations on those 25 years. If we rewind to 1996, what do websites look like, and what do your scopes of work look like at that time? KEVIN: It's too funny. I love telling the story, Rob. In January 1996 when we went to market, this was a new division of a company that I had. Back then, we would be what you might call a managed services provider or your outsourced IT department. But essentially, my company at the time really helped companies manage their computer networks – which, back then, there was no cloud; they were all in some kind of closet in the corner of a company's office space. We managed their servers, their desktop computers and things of that nature. One of our engineers was getting into web design and built our company's website and wanted to see if we could do the same for a couple of our clients. I told him I don't have any blockers to it. I wasn't super excited about the idea, but he was knocking on our clients' doors, and he was offering them a three-page website for $500. Of the first 100 people that he asked that were existing clients, they had two responses: “What is a website?” or “We'll never need one of those.” Finally, finally, one of them said yes. We built them a three-page website. Really, all it was, was a digital version of a trifold brochure that they had, but I think we spent $5,000 building this $500 website. But sooner or later, all that came back. About a year or two later, all of those companies that said, “What is a website?” or “we'll never need one of those” were banging on our door and saying, “Hey, listen, that website thing you talked about a year or two ago – I think we need one of those.” But the good news is they weren't $500 anymore; they were $7,500. I think we were such an early adopter to this that we were truly to educate a market on a need they were going to have, and they weren't ready yet. But when they were ready, they came back to us, and I think that's part of our viability. We're fortunate; we're one of only 2% of the agencies who survived the dot-com bubble burst. I think it was those early seeds we planted in building a good client base that helped us survive the dot-come bubble. We were a company that went from three employees when we got started to two years later having 30 employees to a year after that having 225 and blowing up huge in the dot-com bubble. But when the bubble burst, we went from 225 employees down to about 12 in a matter of a year period of time. If it wasn't for that early foundation of clients that we had found, I don't think we would have survived. There's an old saying, “What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.” Certainly, we learned a lot of experiences from that. But very thankful for that original client base that we had. ROB: In that timeframe, a lot of web companies went tremendously, tremendously upmarket. I don't think people realize how little you would get sometimes for a million-dollar website in that era. KEVIN: Yes. ROB: Kind of the iXLs and the Razorfishes of the world. Did you ever swim up to that scope and scale of website, or did your MSP roots also keep you grounded in – KEVIN: As I tell the story, we started out in '96 with $500 websites. In 1998, the average value got to be $7,500. In 2000 that went to $216,500. You just see how that was growing. iXL and Razorfish were what I would call my mentor companies. I'm very fortunate that I've had some great personal mentors in my career, but I had some corporate mentors. I looked at iXL and Razorfish as those two companies. I don't know if these are the right words, but I think we got cocky a little bit. We put billboards right above the headquarters of iXL of our company's brand. [laughs] So companies or employees going in there knew who we were, and we used that as one of our marketing tactics. Then, fortunately, I got a chance to actually go through the offices of Razorfish on a couple different occasions as our company was about to go public in the journey, and the bankers that were going to take us public also took Razorfish public. So, we got a chance to go see how Razorfish operated and things of that nature. But I think one of the blessings we ended up receiving was just that we didn't go public. iXL didn't survive; Razorfish changed ownership numerous times, bought and sold for losses during the journey. Because we didn't go public, I got to own the decisions that we had to make to navigate that journey. While it was no fun to deal with the downside of the dot-com bubble bursting, I do think it was a savior that we were able to make the changes necessary and nimble enough to be able to survive, where some of those mentors that I looked up to didn't have the same outcome. ROB: It's interesting. I think everybody in that time was a little bit cocky. You mentioned you had the billboard by iXL, and Milchem today puts billboards near their competitors just to spite them a little bit, although they are a cash machine. But iXL I believe also had a movie theater on their roof, so I think everyone was a little bit cocky. KEVIN: For sure. Cocky or stupid or a combination of each. Unfortunately, I think a victim of the times – everyone thought those were the right things to do. At that time, I joke like everyone in 1999 or 2000 was changing the name of their company to something “dot com.” I remember seeing State Farm change their name to “StateFarm.com.” Sears changed their name from Sears to “Sears.com.” Everyone thought if they didn't do that, they weren't going to survive, but fear was motivating their decision, and often good decisions aren't the outcome of fear. I think the dot-com bubble exploded for numerous different reasons, but one of them is everyone was chasing after something they didn't understand, and everyone got caught up in that momentum. The good news is that wasn't the right momentum, and correction needed to take place, and it did and everyone got better and stronger as a result of it.  ROB: For sure. Amazing that you were even able to survive. How do you navigate that sort of path from 200+ employees to around 12? Obviously, there's the financial aspect of it, but there's also the psychological aspect, the identity of the company and your role shifting so quickly. How did you navigate that healthily and keep the business rolling as well? KEVIN: Of course, downsizing is never fun for anybody at all, but the reality is that the companies who paid me $500 for a website or later $7,500 stayed with me. The companies who were paying $216,500, it wasn't their money. They had investors, and when the dot-com bubble burst, those investors weren't funding those projects anymore. 90% of my clients could no longer pay their bills anymore, so I had to send a cease and desist letter to all my clients that if they couldn't meet their current financial obligations to our company, we had to sever services. 30 days later, I lost 90% of my client base. But who did I still have left? The people who paid me that $7,500, who had realistic expectations of what their investment was going to make for their business and how it was going to help them grow. The ones who had unrealistic expectations were someone who raised zillions and millions of dollars with this fantastic idea and spending money like it was going out of style – and then it went out of style, and there was no money to be had. I think in the journey of going down, some of my coworkers were cognizant enough to know that what we thought we all were working towards, the opportunity had gone. Others weren't quite there yet, and I think there was a hope that it would go back to the way it was. Unfortunately, some self-selected themselves to go somewhere else, and unfortunately we had more than one round of layoffs that helped some of that reduction as well. At the end of the journey, Rob, to your point, I ended up rebranding our company because the company that we were wasn't the company that we were going to become. I didn't want that brand of who we were – an aspiring dot-commer on the verges of going public, spending money like it's going out of style with clients spending money with us like it's going out of style – that went away, and I think I had to rebrand my company and find people how accepted the fact that it was never going to be what we thought it was, where we are going to have stock options and be worth a lot of money. I had to find a core team who realized that wasn't on the table anymore. I had to change the company's brand because I didn't want us hanging onto a lost hope that wasn't going to be a new reality. ROB: Wow, that's quite a shift, but it's tremendous to think about getting the right team on board for that shift. You mentioned you've been in business almost 25 years. KEVIN: Correct. ROB: One thing you see with agencies that stay in business for a while is sometimes they get mired in the previous generation of the marketing that was hot. There are still web design development agencies. There are still SEO and pay-per-click agencies. But the bar keeps on moving. The target keeps on moving. How have you navigated which lines of service and which technologies, which tools, which marketing channels to bring into the mix and which ones to hold at arm's length?  KEVIN: That's a great question. When I rebranded the company, we came up with the brand Bayshore Solutions. Why'd you come up with Bayshore Solutions? The reality is very similar to the question you just asked. I named our company Bayshore Solutions, one, because our office was adjacent to Bayshore Boulevard in Tampa, Florida, so that's where the “Bayshore” came from. [laughs] But the “solutions” piece was I didn't want our company's name to be associated with any service that I didn't know would survive the outcome of the dot-com bubble burst. At the time, it could've been Bayshore Web Design. It could've been Bayshore Web Development. It could've been Bayshore SEO. It could've been any of those. But I didn't want to tattoo the name of our company and associate it to a service that may not be what the new norm was going to become. So, very agnostically, I used the word “solutions.” That gave us an opportunity to not be positioning our brand name with a particular area of the industry that you didn't know would still be surviving. Then on an ongoing basis, under Bayshore Solutions, the services that we provide – I've always said that at the end of the day, the value that we bring to our clients is a level of expertise over and above what they have. Our tagline is “Digital expertise to grow your business.” It's my job and our company's job to continue to find a balance between the bleeding edge of new and the tested, tried, and true. It's finding a solution that isn't too risky to be on the bleeding edge but isn't that lack of scalable to be leveraging the tested, tried, and true, and always be bringing a solution to our clients that balances a little bit of both, minimizes their bleeding edge risk, but maximizes their ability to have their investment have some scalability. It's always having that next level of expertise that our clients value and can appreciate, and the services around what we can do for them are going to help them move their needle towards growth. ROB: Is there a percent range of budget you recommend, often, towards more experimental channels? Less proven, in your words? KEVIN: It's a great question. I think while every client would love to hear every dollar that they spend absolutely is intended for strict ROI, the opportunity to find the right mix is putting a percentage in the media budget and services to some experimental type things. I think while every solution is unique and different, some are in the 10% range. Give or take 5 points is probably the right answer. So 5% to 15%. Often that variance can be where particular industries are in their particular cycle. Almost every vertical market has cycles. Some are in an upcycle, some are in a downcycle. Where you spend your exploratory dollars on an upcycle is probably a bigger percentage, and on a downcycle it's probably a smaller percentage. But it's finding that right mix, whether it's opportunity to grow in each particular vertical market that we're providing services for, and educating our clients that part of the opportunity to find their secret sauce is finding a budget that we can use for some exploratory services. The other neat thing that we do, Rob, is we market ourselves as digital experts horizontally across numerous verticals. When I talk to our clients every month and I ask about what's the value we bring back to them, what I hear them say is they have a choice of picking an agency with vertical market expertise or one who's more of a generalist across many vertical markets, and they appreciate picking Bayshore Solutions, who has this horizontal approach to many different verticals, because we're bringing ideas to their vertical that, if they had a vertical-focus-only agency, that agency wouldn't have that awareness from. And as we're able to share that expertise that we're learning in other verticals, it's not coming at a competitive risk that we learned it on one company that may be competing against another company; it's coming from experiences outside from another industry. So as we have that exploratory budget for each of our clients, a lot of the learning lessons don't come at the cost of their budget, but it comes from the learning lessons of other verticals and what seems to be working that can be applicable to that particular industry. ROB: I hear a through line, a sense of balance across what you're talking about. You talk about there's a balance in the channels of not too, too experimental and not too staid and old. There's a balance in your client base. There's a balance in choosing solutions as being forward-thinking but also flexible. Even in the Bayshore part, people who have been to Tampa and know Tampa know that there are parts of Bayshore Boulevard that are tremendously lovely and picturesque and evocative to someone who is from there and may or may not be able to afford to live on Bayshore Boulevard, but it seems flexible also. You mentioned that you also have an office in Denver. So, the name itself even can be about a place but is also not about a place, is also more general. When you have two offices, how are you thinking about that balance of local clients, regional clients, or location agnostic clients? What's the reasoning on the second office? KEVIN: That's a great question. The real purpose of the second office, Rob, was just an opportunity to expand our talent pool. Tampa's been amazing to us, but we wanted a complementary talent pool to be able to find digital experts in. Secondarily, we want to be able to serve our clients as easily as possible, and our clients are nationwide. So, we wanted a second office for that talent pool opportunity, but also to be able to serve our clients in their same time zone or one time zone away. As we expanded to a second office 8 years ago, we looked at either Mountain Time or Pacific Time, and that would give s the ability to serve same time zone or one time zone away. We looked at 13 communities and ended up picking Denver, Colorado, and couldn't be happier that that's where we ended up picking. I had no idea Denver would go gangbuster great and we'd be this community that's just been thriving like crazy, but I'm so fortunate that we did. It's funny, talking about Bayshore Solutions – I thought I was so crafty in coming up with this agnostic name. While it wasn't very attractive or – I hate to use the word “sexy” – it was very agnostic at the time, but certainly “Bayshore” in an application in Denver doesn't necessarily fit. I remember opening up the office out there, I'm like, man, I wonder if someone's going to question, “Why Bayshore Solutions? What's ‘Bayshore' mean?” out in Denver. It was probably about 3 years into being in Denver that we were having a kickoff meeting for a pretty significant size company, and the CEO of that business wanted to attend the first hour of that kickoff meeting. He said he was going to exit and leave it up to the rest of his team; he wanted to take me outside for just a moment and say a couple words. He goes, “I've got to ask you. Bayshore Solutions – are you guys from here?” I was like, finally someone asked that question. I knew it was going to come. [laughs] And it happened to be a company that was probably about $800 million in revenue that the CEO asked me for that. I'm sure if it was Denver, it should be “Snowcap Solutions” or something along those lines. What's really interesting about our journey is that very intentionally, we're headquartered not only to be able to serve our clients in the same time zone or one time zone away, but secondarily, Colorado and Florida are two of the top eight states that have the most digital talent within them. The advantage to Denver and to Florida is we don't have the cost burdens of a few of the others, but certainly California, Illinois, and New York. So very strategically, we are in two of the top eight most digital-rich talent states, but without the cost burdens, and secondarily, able to serve clients in the same time zone or one time zone away. That isn't accidental. That's very intentional, and I think it's been a benefit to our company and our customers as a result of some of that very intentional decision-making.  ROB: It also seems aligned from a city culture – I have not lived in Denver per se, but both places are places where there are reasons to get outside. Those reasons are different, but both places have very many reasons to have a life outside of work that isn't just going to your house and hiding in the air conditioning, as if you'd gone to Phoenix or something. KEVIN: Right, exactly. No doubt about it. Culturally, we were a fit. In our dot-com rise, we did go from one office in Tampa – we had six offices total. Two of them were in California and one of them was in Chicago. I think we gelled well culturally with our Chicago coworkers. California was always different. We did research in four cities in California when we were doing our expansion, and when we got down to the final datapoints of what we were seeking from a data perspective, the list of 13 communities we looked at got narrowed down to just two. It was Denver, Colorado or Orange County, California. Then I had to make a decision, and I used this terrible logic to make my decision, but it was twofold. One was about 20 years ago, I made a commitment to myself I would never fly on a redeye the rest of my life. I only cheated on myself one time, and it was coming back from Orange County, California, and the only return one-way flight to Tampa from Orange County is a redeye. So, for that reason, it had a scar. Secondarily, I recalled having two offices in California, one in San Francisco and one in Los Angeles, and culturally, while they did a great job performing, there was always a cultural riff between our California coworkers and the remaining part of our company. For those two reasons, I picked Denver, Colorado, and again, I think I'm very fortunate that that's what the final decision was. I couldn't be happier about our progress in the Denver community. ROB: That's fantastic. Kevin, you mentioned that you made it not only through the dot-com bust, but the financial crisis. I'm sure come around March, or maybe sooner or maybe slightly later depending on how you look at things, in 2020, there was probably a little bit of a sense of, “Oh, here we go again” with the pandemic and the knock-on effects from that. Was there anything you did when you started seeing things shut down – how did you react and prepare, and how are you thinking about the situation now? KEVIN: There isn't a “COVID for Dummies” book published yet, so we're all flying this with our own experiences as a navigating tool. I think everybody's approached this in different ways. My company has taken a stance that when times get tough, we've reduced a lot of not necessary expenses, but we've actually increased our marketing budget by 50%. We're aggressive in trying to market and sell our way through this versus cut our way through this. We're having some upward trends. Our leads are up, our traffic is up, sales met expectations from our December forecast. We've had a couple months where we actually met those forecasts where I don't think, if we didn't go more aggressive from a marketing perspective, we'd have any ability to do so. Our company has tried to market our way through this, and that's continued to be what I think we're going to see ourselves do for the remainder of 2020. When people say, “Hey, what are we going to do in…?”, I'm not stating or committing to anything I can't own. Right now, I feel like I can own 30 days, 60 days, maybe 90 days, but I'm not comfortable that I know I can really own anything much further out than that. So, we are communicating frequently with our team on what our next 90-day plan is and removing any unnecessary operational expenses and reinvesting that into sales and marketing. We haven't had to lay off any people. We're trying to keep our great team together, and the way to do so isn't by cutting; it's by being aggressive and going to find business a little bit more intentional, a little bit more aggressive. There's companies out there that need help, and we're out there seeking those companies. That's how we're positioning ourselves in this pandemic. ROB: I think not even cautiously optimistic, but just optimistically – not even cautious. There's just an intentionality to it that I think is really worth looking at and listening to. It's not panicked. It's looking at opportunity without being opportunistic. I think that's a really good stance to consider. When you look back at the overall journey, it sounds like you've navigated a lot and learned a lot through that path, and we've talked through some of the changes, but overall if you look back and you could do some things over, what are some lessons you've learned along the way that you would maybe do differently if you were starting this 25-year-old company today in 2020? KEVIN: That's a great question. I used to have a CEO coach, and he asked me this loaded question one time. He said, “Hey Kevin, do you know how you get experience?” And I knew it was a loaded question. I knew his answer was going to be the only answer. I'm guessing, and he's like, “No, that's not it. That's not it.” I was like, “Coach Chris, tell me, how do you gain experience?” He said, “You gain experience by making mistakes and learning from them.” As I look back, I certainly didn't make every right decision, but I've gained a lot of experience. I think some of the things I might do differently – one is when we started our company in the dot-com era, we had a very, very focused culture that we were driving towards, but it was caught up into the dot-com era, which wasn't real. Then when that dot-com bubble exploded, that culture had expectations that weren't necessarily real. I think part of it would just be making sure that our culture is partially organically created and we have likeminded people that fit our core values, but also intentionally corporate-driven and that it's meeting the expectations of our customers, our coworkers, and our company altogether. So, I think maybe an added focus on an intentional organic culture as opposed to an intentional focus or an organic focus. It's a combination of both of those. Over the last few years, I think our company has really worked on a great balance of an intentional organic culture and really spending more time identifying the core values of Bayshore Solutions and finding people to work with us who meet those core values and use those as real true guiding posts. The result of that is the amount of internal friction within our organization is significantly less than it has ever been before. The cohesiveness of the team – they have fun together and meet all of our goals and objectives. I think in the past, we either had fun and didn't meet our goals and objectives, or we highly met our goals and objectives but sacrificed fun. Today I think I've learned that there is a fine way to balance both out and meet goals and objectives with a team that you appreciate working with every day, and everyone's having fun in the journey. ROB: You mentioned core values. Are those something you're able to share with us? I think it can often be helpful for others to hear each other's core values. KEVIN: Absolutely. First up, we work together, we win together, we solve problems together. Those are probably the three core values that we live by. We have a few others, but certainly we work together, and it's not just as a company. We work together with our clients on one digital team. We form a digital team with our clients and our coworkers on it. We work together, we win together, we solve problems together. We come to work with a positive winning attitude every day, problem-solving. We own our own accountability; we don't point fingers at others. That's really worked well, finding people who have that likeminded approach to who they want to work with and how they want to work – not only from a coworker perspective, but we see clients that meet those values also. Clients who don't necessarily share those same values become clients who maybe you don't have the same relationship with. So, it's not only who we work with, but who we work for, finding likeminded customers and coworkers. In that journey, we've enjoyed that journey much better from a customer and a coworker perspective. ROB: You mentioned a coach that you used to work with. Sometimes it's interesting to hear people's processes on working with a coach. Do you still work with a coach? How have you met that need for a voice outside of yourself? KEVIN: I don't have a personal CEO coach anymore, but our company has hired a coach, and in my journey of having a coach, it was great. It helped me see the blind spots that I couldn't see. So, the coach was very beneficial. But almost 2 years ago, I elected to switch from having a personal CEO coach to my leadership team having an executive coach. We all picked a coach together, and we started following Gino Wickman's Traction program called the Entrepreneurial Operating System. It goes by the acronym EOS. We found an implementer to be all of our team's coach – not just Kevin having a coach. The journey using Traction's EOS has been amazing for I think our entire leadership team and our entire company. It's given us a tighter vision, a better definition of what those core values are that we just were talking about. But instead of me learning on my own and trying to bring those lessons in to my leadership team, we're learning that all together as one cohesive team. When we hired our implementer, we made it a team hire, not “Kevin found one and brought him to the table.” It's our coach, not Kevin's coach. There's an old saying, “If you want people to be part of the plan, make them part of the planning process.” Having a team coach, we're hearing the same thing at the same time. Following Gino Wickman's Traction Entrepreneurial Operating System, this is stuff we're learning together. We're all part of the planning process. So being part of the plan comes much more easily and understandably to the whole team versus me creating this on my own and bringing it to them. It's just been far more understanding and aware and excitable as we've gone from “Kevin's CEO coach” to a team coach. ROB: That's a great lesson in bringing a lot of the pressure, even, off of yourself, bringing your team into the decision. I think we all need to think about and learn from that a little bit more. I was reminded yesterday when somebody on my team solved a problem better than I ever would have, but I felt like I needed to solve it at first. KEVIN: No doubt. Quite frankly, it's just finding the right people in the right roles. It's helped us complement each other. I don't have to have all the answers, and I think prior, I had to have all the answers. Today we have a very strong, strong leadership team here. We all know what we do well and the areas of the business that others do better. We're comfortable being very vulnerable and exposing where our strengths and our weaknesses are and dividing and conquering, and working together as one cohesive team. It's been highly effective. I used to joke, before we were following this Entrepreneurial Operating System, which goes by the acronym EOS, prior to all of us following the EOS, I joke we were following the KOS. People are like, “What's the KOS?” I'm like, “That's the Kevin operating system.” No one's written a book yet about the Kevin operating system, but there's tens of thousands of companies following this EOS. For sure it's been great guideposts to help us continue to find the right people to help us accomplish the things that our company seeks to do. ROB: Super-duper solid. Love it, Kevin. When people want to find you and find Bayshore Solutions, where should they go look you up? KEVIN: BayshoreSolutions.com, find us there. Love to hear from everybody. I'd like to have some ongoing dialogue. I'm easy to reach; it's just kevin@bayshoresolutions.com. Rob, I enjoyed the opportunity to share some of the Bayshore Solutions story with you today. ROB: This was great. It sounds like an excellent journey, and it's still rolling, so congratulations. KEVIN: Thank you. ROB: Be well, Kevin. Thank you. KEVIN: Thank you. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

The more a seller expands his net, the more buyers he can catch. Often on the Amazon seller revenue lines we see the lack of traction on the international side of the game. How can you get your brand safely and productively into other Amazon Markets? The truth is that Amazon UK or any other country off the .com grid are potential revenue streams and expansion opportunities if approached in the right way. Today's guest walks us through that expansion process step by step so that business owners and buyers can envision the opportunities to be had. Kevin Sanderson is a multiple six figure seller with over three years of experience on Amazon. When he started out simply selling on Amazon he had one item and very quickly turned that into about 80 skus. He learned that by expanding into the international marketplace he could target products that he could plug into that market successfully. He has a passion for helping others successfully sell on Amazon's International Marketplaces via his website and podcast and is here to tell you how you can succeed beyond dot com. Episode Highlights: Which products are best for which country and where to start in the sell. Reasons Kevin recommends starting in Canada to get your feet wet. Where to go next and how to get over the translation hurdle overseas. Why Germany stands out in the arena. The recommended steps and estimated time-frame for the expansion process. What Amazon offers by way of help. Differences in taxation in the international marketplaces. How to approach the customer service aspect in those markets. Services that Kevin offers for someone looking to expand internationally. The importance of attending ECommerce events for opening doors and connecting. Transcription: Mark: Joe welcome back from your vacation, you've been gone for a few weeks and Quiet Light Brokerage absolutely nothing happened because you aren't here. Joe: Did you missed me at all? I think I had an email reminder, a notification in there that said if you really need me find me on Whatsapp and no one needed me at all which is very humbling. The reality is that we think we're really important cogs of the wheel and if there's enough cogs you're not so nobody missed you at all. Mark: Well the truth is actually people would email you and then they would get my email and then I was home that they don't want to work with you they actually want to work with me so I've just been picking off all your potential clients. Joe: I love it, no, take all those 10 million dollar listings. Thanks, I appreciate that. Mark: Absolutely I appreciate it too, very much, and so does my wife. Anyways this week I want to talk about something that we've seen a lot of with Amazon Sellers. We look at these P&Ls and oftentimes what you see are these revenue lines on the P&Ls where it's your typical Amazon sales coming through and then you see this Amazon UK or Amazon Europe or something like that and you see some revenue kind of pop and then trail off after a while. And when you talk to the client or the seller about this the backstory is always the same. I thought about expanding to Europe and UK but I didn't really gain traction there and it was just a lot more work than I really anticipated so we've decided not to really do that. The fact is though Amazon UK, Amazon Europe, Amazon Canada, and some of these other countries are really, really good expansion opportunities but you have to go about it the right way and that's not always as straight forward as putting the product up and launching that store. You talked to somebody who we guess went over exactly in that process how do you actually expand into in other markets on Amazon. Joe: Yeah it's Kevin Sanderson from Maximizing Ecommerce. He's affiliated or associated with Scott Voelker who we enjoy from the Amazing Seller and Brand Accelerator Live. And Kevin talks about just that. Okay if you're going to expand start here then go there and then go there so that you're getting your feet wet and doing it in a way where you're learning without getting so frustrated you just throw your hands up and walk away which as he said I see too often. Interestingly enough yesterday I'm doing a valuation call and exactly what you talked about revenue line for Amazon.com and Amazon Europe overseas and there were 3 or 4 months of revenue starting to climb, climb, climb, and then nothing because that particular individual just got frustrated. She didn't think she was going to get a bang for a buck there because it was so complicated and confusing for her. But the reality is she took on too much all at once. Kevin's approach is more methodical and I like it. It's simple. It's clean. It's logical. It's not going to be earth-shattering for anybody listening. But what it is going to do is going to give them reinforcement to what they probably already know and what they should do and hopefully will do as well. Mark: Yeah fantastic topic we do have a shout out to give to somebody who guessed the right intro to one of our podcast and you got that email, Joe. Joe: I did it's from Westin Woodelf, I've got a cold after this vacation, Westin Woodelf, he  sent me an email actually while I was on vacation. It is one of the very few emails that I checked. He guessed The Founder which is the story of McDonald's the movie clip. So shout out to you Westin and thanks for listening. I appreciate all the kind words and I assure you we will get more people that bought e-commerce businesses or online businesses from us and we'll get them back on the podcast 6, 12 months after that something that he said he enjoys listening to Mark and wants to hear more of. Mark: Yeah and you know I went to a meetup; a shout out to the people that I met up with for the Rhodium Minneapolis Red Calibers meet up just a couple of weeks ago. I got some good feedback on the podcast there as well you know the point here being not to say guys you have to praise us because we need it for our egos more what do you want to hear. And I got some really good feedback on that. If you guys have stuff that you want to hear or a style of podcast that really stands out to you, let us know, send us an email. We do insist that we want to create content that's useful for you and helpful. And again keep guessing those movie titles that should be fun. The Founder is a great movie as well highly recommended for anyone that loves entrepreneurship. Joe: And we actually respond to emails. Its inquiries@quietlightbrokerage.com Mark and I get those personally. We also have our own personal email addresses which are really complicated joe@quietlightbrokerage.com or mark@quietlightbrokerage.com and Mark as a K, not a C. Mark: I spell it the right way. Joe: You do spell it the right way, sorry everybody else. Alright, let's get to this Kevin Sanderson, Maximizing Ecommerce, how to get your brand safely and productively in other Amazon markets. Joe: Hey folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today we've got Kevin Sanderson from Maximizing Ecommerce on the podcast. Kevin, how are you today? Kevin: I'm doing excellent. Thanks for having me. Joe: Where in the world are you? Kevin: I am in south-ish Florida, about 35 minutes north of West Palm Beach. Joe: Alright so we're recording at the end of July so you're definitely inside the house as always, right? Kevin: Oh yes, it's nice and humid. Joe: So as I said in the pre-call here that we don't do fancy intros so why don't you tell the audience a little bit about yourself and what your background is. Kevin: Sure. So I've been an e-commerce seller for about 4 years. I remember when I got into the whole thing I just happened to be looking at my phone podcasts and this podcast called the Amazing Seller podcast came up. I was like this sounds interesting so I listened to it. I was like this sounds like something I want to go towards and I went out to Walgreens and they were closing out the summer specials of like whatever they're going to close out to make room for back to school and I bought a bunch of those blue cooler thingy's you'd use in your cooler to keep your cans cooled in the freezer. Joe: Okay. Kevin: And I remember sending some of them off to Amazon with a few other things. And I got an e-mail that my stock had been checked in and I was playing with the app like most people do once you start doing this for a while. It keeps saying this 0 sales, 0 dollars, all this and then all of a sudden I refresh it and there's a 1. I was like hey someone bought it. It was like the day it got checked in. I was prepared like mentally that it might take weeks or whatever but this just like rush of adrenaline came over me. And I went running into the living room and my wife and was like you have to see this and I almost like threw the phone at her. I was so excited. But at first, she thought it was insane just kind of like where is my husband who is this person but then she realized I was just excited about it and then she kind of got it. And so from then on, I've been hooked on the whole e-commerce game. Joe: So it's that easy just go to Walmart, Walgreens, buy some stocked out items and put it on Amazon and you're in business. Everybody succeeds that way, right? Kevin: Yes I came to learn there's more steps in the process for that. It was like one of the things I learned very early on in my resale arbitrage career which is short-lived was that I didn't like having to keep finding stuff and bending it in. So at least what it did was it clicked the switch in my head that like okay this is possible. It's not just I'm hearing someone talking about it. I actually saw like the 0 go to a 1 and it became real to me. Like okay now let's go after building my own brand. And so the fall was coming up and at the time I was a high school football official and I decided to take a year's worth of earnings and put that off to the side to go towards my 1st product. And so from let's say February of the following year which would have been 2016 I put up my own branded products and then I kept reinvesting into it. And then back in December of 2018, I left my job and it was like I'm going to do all this full time. And I now have about 80 products that I sell. 80 different SKUs as well as…I sell mostly on Amazon but still try to diversify as much as possible. One of the things that's been very successful for me is selling internationally; so I sell in Canada, the 5 European marketplaces, Japan, and I'm about to launch in Australia and Mexico. Joe: Okay and that's what we're going to dig into today folks is how to expand beyond Amazon.com into these other marketplaces. You know I have multiple valuation calls a week talking to people that are looking to exit someday and just yesterday I talked to somebody that we have…she's a friend of Scott Voelker from The Amazing Seller who you're friends with as well. And she tried to expand to Europe and found that it was just too complex and complicated. So it's funny one of the growth areas that savvy; not savvy, that's the wrong word because this person is actually very savvy. One of the growth areas that people with a kind of international experience see is international. They'll look at an Amazon business it's US only and they can see where it may plug into one of the European markets or all of them. Whereas others they try it and they fail because it's just at a level of detail that is not good for them and their business and they stick to one; focus on the US. You set up a business for that where you're helping people expand beyond the US. So talk to me about A. which country because I have a couple in mind I want to see which countries are the best or if it's not that simple that different products are better for different countries. Kevin: Well there's a little bit of different products are the best for different countries. But one simple thing people can do is if their product is selling in the US and they just look up the keyword of how someone might find their product, so if they are selling garlic presses as our friend Scott would use or fishing lures they could look up garlic presses or fishing lures on Amazon.ca or Amazon.co.uk which are the Canadian and UK versions of Amazon and just go to Jungle scout and Jungle Scout will give you an idea. Now don't get caught up in the numbers but what I would say is if you are making sales in the US and similar products to yours are making some sales internationally in those international marketplaces it's at least worth evaluating. You should at least try. Now to your point, there are some hoops you have to jump through. One of the things I recommend to people if you're going to start off with go into Canada because logistically I personally find it easier. They have what's called GST, HST which is their goods and services tax, harmonized sales tax, it's all kind of the same thing but for the most part most people are just going to register with the federal government there and it works very similar to how sales tax work in the US except it's simpler for most people. And in most cases, they're going to have to file for that sales tax once per year. Joe: So do you do that just for the exercise of learning how to go international because it's easy because it is Canada, are you going to get your bang for your buck there, right? The population is 10% of the US so you can expect 10% of your US revenue in terms of Amazon. How do you; is it really worth it? And I think I know the answer. I think I know what you're going to say but I want to hear you say it. Is it really worth it in terms of dollars or is it a combination of dollars and revenue and the exercise of going international and getting comfortable with it? Kevin: I would say all of the above. So the way I look at it is you have a net and as widen that net in the sea of Amazon you're going to catch more fish. And some of those fish are exclusive to; and by fish I mean customers, some of those are exclusive to Canada or they're exclusive to the UK. And as you catch more of those fish you're going to get more sales. So the way I like to look at it is if you said I'm just going to go into all the international marketplaces if you try to do it all at once it's going to be too much. Canada is relatively simple. I think it's a good place to get your feet. So what I did was I went to Canada and then I went to the UK that which is their sales tax is a little more complex and there's more kind of like landmines you could go hit on that you don't want to. So it's best to start off with Canada going to the UK. And then you can go into other parts of Europe and use UK as a base of operations. And the nice thing is if you go into the other marketplaces in Europe you'll most likely have to translate your listings but at least if you're starting off in the UK and Canada you're talking about 2 English speaking countries. So that also lowers some of the barriers. Joe: Okay, so you're saying a little bit of everything going into Canada so I think it's a great idea that people start there. And if all you do; if you're doing $100,000 in discretionary earnings or profit and you expand to Canada and all it does is add $10,000 it's not hard. Kevin will talk about a little bit in terms of how to do it and can help people do it but that additional $10,000 in discretionary earnings if your business is worth a 3 time multiple you just added $30,000 a month to the overall value of your business if you decide to exit someday. But I like that baby-stepping it doing one country at a time starting with Canada and then another English speaking country being the UK. As far as VAT it is complicated. We've done podcasts on it with Avask accounting; the folks over there. Kevin: That's what I use. Joe: Great. Folks use them as well. I know Melanie they refer people back and forth to us. Anytime we've got someone buying a brand that's selling in the UK we always connect people with them because they're good. And for folks, that's AvaskAccounting.co.uk A-V-A-S-K. In terms of the next country so you're going to go Canada then you're going to go UK where do you go next? Kevin: I would say most likely Germany. Germany outside of the UK is going to have some of the best sales in Europe. Now you're starting to get into a different language but there's translation services out there. Amazon has translation services but there are some asterisks that you might not actually be eligible for kind of strange. Joe: I don't think the automated translation services work all that well and here's why. I was just in France and Switzerland and used Google Translate. It kind of worked. I'm literally driving down the highway from I think at the airport to Paris and I'm in the car with an Uber driver and he's got Google Translate up on his phone. I've got it up on mine. I say something and it spits it out in French. We're having this weird conversation but it didn't quite fully translate it properly. So I couldn't imagine using a translation service, an automated translation service like that. What kind of experience do you have with that if you're going to translate something to German? Do you hire individual people that are native speakers or do you use a translation service? Kevin: So I've tried all kinds of different things. I've had Amazon help me with translations and theirs is essentially machine in most cases. Joe: I got it. Kevin: The ones I've seen it's machine translated and then a person checks it. Now the issue is who's checking the checker? So if you're English speaking and you're trying to check whether or not German is correct it's got to be a regular translator. I found a German translator that I've had good luck with and I had someone else check it. So if you find one let's say on Upwork or Fiverr or something and you have someone translate something for you, see if you can hire someone else to critique it. Or if you know someone who speaks German or Spanish or whatever language you want to translate have someone else verify it for you and then you know okay now I've got someone good. I've got; actually oddly enough in the office building, I work out of there's a translation company down the hall that actually they've worked with American Translator Association translators. They have contracts with all the court systems and they've done stuff for GE and Disney and a bunch of other companies. So I've found them to be pretty reputable too. But if you're not 100% sure always have someone else check it. Even if you're hiring let's say on Fiverr and you give like a paragraph of stuff, you can hire 3 or 4 people and have them check against each other. And whoever's getting the best load out of everyone else is probably the one to go with. Joe: Awesome. I think that's a great idea. There's been times I've looked at Amazon listings and I could tell it's been written by somebody that does not speak English as their native tongue and it's obvious and I lose confidence and I don't necessarily want to buy that product. And I imagine it's the same somebody is in Germany thinking it. As far as the countries go, I know that one product is not going to be perfect for all countries but from a brokering standpoint and what I've seen over the last several years is that Germany stands out amongst all of the European countries as the one that seems to bring people that are exiting that have the most sizable business, sizable revenue. Why do you think that is? Is there something about the German marketplace that makes it stronger and larger than the other marketplaces? Is it population? Is it because of the affluent nature of the individuals in that country or is it just pure happenstance? Kevin: I think it's a combination of several different things. So I think as; to take a step back as you go outside of the US and you have more hoops to jump through fewer people want to take those hoops. And then as you start getting into other marketplaces that aren't English now that's another hoop that you have to jump through of getting it translated. So fewer and fewer sellers I think are willing to do that from what I found and so you have less competition. So then combine with I think the population size and the people in Germany; I still do better in the UK than I do in Germany. It could just be my product but I've heard people say the opposite. So it just depends and you never know until you test it. Joe: Okay, Alright so 1st step go to Canada, give it a shot, 2nd UK, and then 3rd another country; Germany. What services are out there? How do you expand? What steps do you recommend someone take in order to go through this process of expanding? And like how much time would you give it? We've talked about 3 countries here so far, what kind of timeframe would you give that in terms of checking those off and moving and expanding into these countries? Kevin: Well if you're doing it alone what you would do is you would 1st register with whatever governmental agency you need to register with. So if it's Canada you go to the Canadian Revenue Agency and register for what's called non-resident importer status and also a GST, HST number. It's all basically the same number, it's just the programs that you're under. Joe: Can all that be done through your Amazon accounts when you want to expand to different countries? Because they're always asking you to expand to different countries, are they offering those services or connections? Kevin: So Amazon will often times help you. Here's my take on Amazon. If they're calling you, answer the phone. It's the way I look at it. See what they have to say. Now I don't want to disparage Amazon but what I've come to find is the people at Amazon they're always very well-intentioned but they're siloed. So no one fully understands the whole journey as a seller that you're going to go through like another seller. So I'm happy to help walk people through that. If people have other friends that are doing it check with your friends and get some advice as well. Just because there are a lot of pieces that even some services like let's say you know I know that there's freight forwarders that will help you get registered in Canada or another country but they may be not getting you into all the programs that you really should be in because they're looking at it from their standpoint of like okay to get stuff across the border you need this but maybe you also need something else that they didn't register you for because that's not necessarily their focus. And then Amazon, their focus is really in my experience the folks who are calling you saying hey sign up in wherever country they're just trying to get you into that country and then from there it's okay go for it. Joe: Okay. First, do the research on that country and make sure that your products are selling or something similar is selling and you've got buyers there. Okay, and how are you dealing with the taxes and registrations? Can you cover that a little bit? We had Avask on the podcast talking about that. Can you talk briefly about the differences on how taxes work on products in the US versus over in Europe? Kevin: Okay. Well, I think the simplest way to look at it is you have 2 buckets of taxes. You have sales tax and you have income tax. So income tax you're still most likely as long as you're using your US-based entity you're going to still owe Uncle Sam assuming someone's from the US, but you're still going to owe Uncle Sam for income taxes or whatever country you live in. So then in that country, there's going to be some sort of tax on the sale; so whether it's a GST, and the VAT; whatever. Joe: What does GST stand for? Kevin: Oh sorry goods and services tax which is the sales tax of Canada. So the nice thing about Canada is in most cases and a disclaimer here is I'm not a tax preparer so please make sure that you check with an appropriate tax professional about your own situation. But what I found is for most people and in talking to people that do this in the tax world is that you're most likely going to in Canada register for the goods and services tax and the harmonized sales tax. It's all just the same thing. Basically, federal tax and you file once per year. It gets added onto the sale just like here in the US. So if they live in a province where let's just say it's 8% and it's $20 then now 1.60 is added on and then you'll remit and file and then you actually in Canada have a few ways that you can save money on what you're giving to the government because if you pay GST at the border or some other way that you're paying you can get credits back. And then it works kind of the same way with credits back in Europe. Now Europe is where it starts getting a little bit more complicated. So the simplest way to look at Europe is where is the inventory getting imported into and where is it being housed. So if it comes across a border you have the requirement to file for VAT or to register and file for VAT in that country. If it's being housed in that country you're required to register and file for that country. So I think the simplest way to do it in Europe is to go into the UK and then keep your inventory in just the UK and they'll allow you to do what's called the European fulfillment network and have your products shipped to the other 4 countries from the UK. Now a lot of times what some people might steer you towards is what's called the pan-European program. It's a little bit of savings but I don't think it's really worth it because you save about a Euro per fulfillment fee and so you think oh wow that's going to add up over time. So the going rate is probably about 7,200 euros per year to be tax compliant, to have somebody do all the tax filings for you and then you end up with like Amazon will put some of your stock in Poland and the Czech Republic those aren't even countries where they have market places but they just store them there. So again once it's stored in a country now you have a VAT requirement and you might have to file; they're filing monthly for you and you have to pay. So you might have to pay the equivalent of like $10or $8 some months to the Polish government and it's just; it's almost like a little nap on your side and it's just like why am I having to do this. Joe: Right. Kevin: So it's expensive and what I came to learn is well I would say the best thing for most people is in Europe you want to sign up for what's called the flat rate scheme. Now when we think of taxes and scheme we think about handcuffs and going to jail. But in Europe scheme just means calculation method. So in most cases, someone who's listening to this is most likely going to be an online retailer and basically, the way it works is if let's say they sell a product in let's say the UK for 12 pounds. The price is actually 10 pounds and 2 pounds of VAT is included in that because the thing that's different about Europe is the price includes the VAT. So just to walk through that math there so you would owe 2 pounds for that sale to the government minus whatever you paid in at the border and whatever other VAT credits you had. Now if you're on the flat rate scheme you don't have to keep all your receipts for everything else. You just file 7½ % so that; just to make the math simple there using that 12 pound product you really just, it's 10 pounds is what you're selling it for so you would owe 7.5% of that which would be 75 pence which is like their pennies over there instead of having to figure out all that other nonsense of like credits and all that. What I found and I could be completely wrong on this is my accountants, they told me, there's not a flat rate scheme currently in the other countries. So if their VAT is 22 or 23% you owe that full 22, 23% as opposed to; because basically, the way it works is instead of like in the US tax is based on, sales tax is based on where the customer lives, in Europe it's where is it being dispatched from; so where they're shipping it from. So if everything is being shipped from the UK you pay the equivalent VAT to the UK. Joe: So that's a pretty substantial saving. You're saving if you're doing penny you're saving a dollar or a euro but the percentages that you're talking about could be pretty substantial in terms of saving if you're shipping off from the UK. Kevin: Yes. Joe: Plus it sounds like your life's going to be a little simpler too. Kevin: Yes. Joe: And I think that's why a lot of people don't expand or expand to the UK and then pull back because it is a little complicated if you do too much too fast. So I like your simple approach here in terms of the flat rate scheme and sticking to the UK. What are you finding in terms of customer service and things of this nature? How do you handle that aspect of it when you're dealing with the European market place if you're in an English speaking native? Kevin: A great question, so there are services out there that will do customer service for you. I've had translators make templates for me because there's a variety of issues that may come up if you've been doing this a while you kind of know what questions people are going to ask you. But also you can do and this is not necessarily something you have to worry too much about because at the end of the day Amazon requires that there's customer service for that customer in the native language. If they're fulfilling it they look at it pretty much as they're handling the customer service. So you will get some emails from time to time that you have to respond to within 24 hours just like you do in the US. And so I sometimes will take the message put it in Google Translate see what it is in English and then I flip it around. So if I'm going back from English to let's say Italian, I then write my response copy and paste the Italian or whatever language I'm using, send it to the customer and I've not really had anyone write back and say I can't believe you just said that to me. Joe: Alright, so it does work in many cases. I did like it. It was an in-depth long conversation about soccer and kids and family with an Uber driver in France where it doesn't work. But I'm sure that in customer service it does work fairly well. Kevin: Yeah like my product didn't arrive, okay we'll send you a new one, usually that that type of thing works pretty well and you can figure out and they can figure out what you mean. Joe: Pretty simple. So, Kevin, you've gone from living in the corporate world to being an entrepreneur. Now you've got 80 different SKUs and you're also; you've got the Maximizing Ecommerce podcast, you are helping other people expand internationally as well. Are you doing that through Maximizing Ecommerce? How does anybody listening that maybe just bought a business and wants to expand internationally is it a service that you offer to help people go beyond the US? Kevin: Yes. So what they could do is if they wanted to go beyond the US actually for your listeners I'd be willing to do a free 30-minute strategy session; no obligation. They could just go to MaximizingEcommerce.com/quiet and it will take them to a page where they can schedule something with me. Just looking for people of course that have an existing business, if they're looking to get started I'll give them a free checklist on how to get their 1st product kind of like how I did. Joe: We'll put that in the show notes as well. Okay. Kevin: Yes and then also if they wanted to hear more live you and I will be hanging out together in September in Fort Worth at Brand Accelerator Live and I will be speaking about selling internationally and then Quiet Light will be there as a sponsor. And then you, I will plug you as well. You will be on stage speaking about how to maximize your sale if you're looking to sell your business one day. Joe: Yeah for folks listening that don't know some of the names we've talked about, Scott Voelker is an entrepreneur, an influencer, a speaker, a motivator, he's got the podcast the Amazing Seller. Scott's local to me sort of in South Carolina. He's got a place up here North Carolina. And Kevin's working with him on Brand Accelerator Live which is Scott's 1st big event. He's bringing in the best people in the marketplace; Greg Mercer from Jungle Scout,  Mike Jackness from eComCrew and a whole lot of other folks. And I'm sort of in a very, very low tier of those folks. Greg and Mike and the other folks like that are very, very well known. Kevin: We're really excited that you're going to be there. Joe: Well thank you. But it's a place where I've heard in terms of the Amazing Seller podcast and what you're doing with Scott it's a place where I've talked to so many people who get such value to grow; and this is the thing, grow their Amazon business but take it beyond Amazon as well and learn about how to market off of Amazon and Shopify and e-mail marketing and Facebook or things of that nature and in the affiliate world and blog world and all that stuff. So I think Scott's done an amazing job with that. I love that you're working with him on this 1st and then we're excited to be there. Anybody that hasn't looked it up yet it's Brand Accelerator Live, is that right? Kevin: Yeah Brand Accelerator Live. They can go to BrandAcceleratorLive.com and if someone is listening to this and is saying well I've never been to a live event before whether it's Brand Accelerator Live or something else if they're listening to this in the future go to something. You never know what's going to come out of it. Joe: I'm going to interrupt and say yes that's absolutely true. You know when I 1st started doing what I do here in Quiet Light I had to go to an event and I think the 1st one I went to was in New Orleans. I can't even remember it but it was a big event and I hated it. Because I didn't like; I'm a bit of an introvert. Doing this right now, talking, podcasts, it's great. It's easy. I'm a bit of an introvert but I was at an event I forget exactly where it was and I heard the name Mike Jackness and I said to myself I'm going to find Mike. And I went to be pre-party and I saw Mike sitting there on a couch. I sat down beside and said hello and now Mike and I are really good friends. I sold his business. We've done podcasts together. We've got a lot of relationships in terms of people we know together. And I think he's made an impact on my life and my business and I've hopefully made the same on his. And when you see people; you go to an event like this and you see people standing around in a circle talking to each other and you don't know who they are, your instant thought is oh they all know each other I don't want to step in there that's really awkward. The reality is that they don't know each other. They're just getting to know each other. And I've been in a situation where literally I'm standing around like that somebody walks up and just sort of shoulders their way and starts to nod their head up and down and says hello and we had all just met each other and he came in and met us as well. So it's a hard thing to do but I think in this e-commerce world, listening to podcasts like this is invaluable but the most important thing you can do is get out there and meet people face to face and shake their hand. And then you can connect with them directly about what they're doing in their business and what you're trying to do with yours; and in this case with you taking Amazon businesses beyond the US and into the other marketplaces in a strategic process and how to do that so that you're going to have a higher success rate. So anybody listening get out there and go to a Mastermind event, whatever it might be, Brand Accelerator Live is not going to be a large one; it's down in Fort Worth in September; what are the dates on it? Kevin: September 18th through 20th and then we also have a Mastermind for high-level sellers on the 21st and we still have a couple of slots available for those mastermind folks. But yeah I definitely recommend that you go to something. So to your point like sometimes you will have that feeling like oh gosh it's going to be hard connecting with people, I remember the 1st e-commerce event I went to and I walked into the opening reception and I go to the bar and kind of have that feeling like okay there's safety at the bar, the bartender is giving me the drink. Joe: Unless you're in Mexico or the Dominican Republic but yeah, okay. Kevin: Right exactly. So I turned around and I'm like okay not to go or I do have to like talk to someone. So there was this woman standing there and it was like hi I'm Kevin and then we just started talking and you know I still keep in contact with her to this day. And I started talking to some other people. And so just a random story here is that at this live event I got to know Scott Voelker and met him in another live event because there's that power in connection where you're meeting people live as opposed to even on the phone or messaging and Facebook groups or whatever case is and he was talking about how you wanted to do more to help people in the intermediate to advanced stage. And I like to think of the world as kind of like a puzzle with pieces that all have to come together that's why I do this international thing and then things to work in hotels and conventions. So I told them I think you should do a live event and I can help you with it because I had that experience. And I was thinking like he's going to say oh no [inaudible[00:37:19.2] whatever thank you graciously because he's a nice guy. But he actually said yes tell me more how would we do this. And so this has become an opportunity that's opened up doors for me because I talked to Scott. And I know all kinds of people, maybe it's not Scott Voelker that they're connected with someone who opened up some door connected them to a supplier, they found out some like I never knew about that service or that whatever and it opened up their mind to something else because they were having a conversation over drinks, breaking bread, or just talking or someone in between sessions at a live event because e-commerce sellers for the most part especially the ones that are doing it full time if they're at their house or whatever and they're just in front of a keyboard all day they want to connect with other people. Joe: Yeah. Kevin: Or if they're doing it as a; they have a full time job they are like I don't know anyone else that does this and so all of a sudden he's like surrounded by people that all do the same thing and most e-commerce sellers are not surrounded all day by other e-commerce sellers so it's like a treat being in the same room. Joe: And you'll be amazed when you connect with folks like that how you figure out after a time that there's a half a dozen people in my surrounding area and then you can have a mini sort of mastermind group where you just get together for drinks once a month or something like that. So I think really important number one thank you for your time and helping people figure out how to expand beyond Amazon.com because it is going to bring more value for their bank account and an eventual sale as well. It's going to bring more value. But for those folks that haven't done it get to a live event, meet people face to face, it will make a difference in your business and in your life in my opinion and experience. It's hard to do. I tell you it is hard to do. It's what I do now that I've got this drink in my hand? You turn around and you say hello to someone and just take your hand out. Kevin: Exactly. Joe: And you end up being amazed with value you didn't get in that situation. Again MaximizingEcommerce.com, BrandAcceleratorLive.com, Kevin you're a good man. I appreciate your time and I look forward to seeing you in September. Kevin: I'm excited for it. Thanks for having me. Links and Resources: Kevin's Website Kevin's Podcast Listener Promo from Kevin Brand Accelerator Live 2019

THE REFERRAL BUSINESS Tune in to this very informative conversation between Dean and Kevin Kauffman. Dean is a 30+ year veteran in the real estate business using his expertise in marketing and applying this knowledge to real estate. HOW MUCH HAS CHANGED in the REAL ESTATE BUSINESS? Dean's reflection on how much has changed in the Real Estate world and how much hasn't changed. In the beginning, Realtors had all of the information contained in a book and searches for properties were physical – you had to go to the open house, read the newspapers, talk to other agents. Now, everything is online and Buyers oftentimes know more than the Realtors. Back in the day, people desired getting top dollar in the least amount of time with little to no hassle. This was true 30 years ago and is still true today with the added benefit of more opportunities to make it happen. What hasn't changed is Days on Market and the asking price percentage. (Kevin) How have you taken your Real Estate experience and your marketing experience and brought them both together? What's really happening in the Real Estate world? (Dean) I spent 30 years to study how to crack the code of the real estate puzzle pieces of: 1. Getting listings 2. Multiplying your listings 3. Getting referrals 4. Converting leads 5. Finding Buyers. One area that is competition proof is the referral business. Dean employs the Dunbar Number and markets to his Inner Circle of 150 people defined as this – these are the people you recognize by their name, you would stop and have a conversation with them, and you know your position in their life. (Dean) So then the problem to solve is – How can you manage this ‘Relationship Profile' as an asset for a 20% yield (which is the target and gold standard) to generate 30 referred transactions a year? For example: Take the number of repeat and referrals you had in the last year and divide by the 150 in your inner circle). Fifteen referrals yields a 10% repeat, 5 referrals yields a 3% repeat yet the goal is a 20% Return on Relationship and this requires real orchestration. 80% of referrals are passive and 20% are reactive. This makes up all referrals but leaves out the proactive referrals. What is an Orchestrated Referral Program? Ex: When showing a home in a particular neighborhood call or email a friend who lives in that neighborhood explaining what you are doing and ask if they know of anyone in that neighborhood who is interested in selling their home. This is a proactive referral. Discussion on the psychology of the herd – changing mass behavior, making people feel good to do something for you and elevating their perceived status and giving them opportunities to do so. We are all hard-wired to provide value to people in our inner circle of 150 and are constantly looking for an opportunity to add value. (Kevin) Yes, it's like invoking the law of reciprocity. How can you make this happen? (Dean) By deconstructing the mechanics of how a referral works and orchestrating the situation in the mind of your inner circle of 150. 1. Get them to notice when a conversation about real estate is happening 2. Get them to think about you in that conversation 3. Get them to introduce you to the person they are having the conversation with. 4. Get them to keep you on their mind so you come to mind in their conversations with others What are the high probability conversations? Anyone buying, selling, moving up, downsizing, vacation home, investment home, sweat equity, winterize your home, etc.   INTRODUCTION TO THE WORLD'S GREATEST POSTCARD To stay on people's minds, Dean sends out a postcard to his inner circle of 150 to stay on the minds of his friends. In this way, he manages his relationship portfolio asset for a 20% yield in new business by changing the mindset and conversation and programming this into the minds of his friends using the postcard as a proactive referral tool. http://theworldsmostinterestingpostcard.com/   LISTING MULTIPLIER INDEX Explanation of the Metric Index for listings. Take how many listings you obtained from one listing and divide by 10 to get an index. Each listing should yield 5 opportunities for more business: 1. Get is SOLD 2. You find a buyer for this listing 3. A buyer in interested in another property from you 4. Another listing 5. A referral from the seller before the transaction is closed   IN CLOSING (Kevin) Using the two metrics of the Listing Multiplier Index and the Return on Relationship Asset to find out where you are at in your own business and how to increase those numbers speaks to the ‘competition proof' solution that Dean talks about. (Dean) There's always been constant challenges in this business but the bottom line is people will gravitate to the most convenient thing. (Kevin) I learned an important lesson from you that you can't remind people to come to your event or to refer you; speak about the 9 Word Email. (Dean) There are always two timeframes: NOW and not NOW. I am in 100% pursuit of NOW and that is where the 9 Word email came from. The old mindset of (pre) judging leads as being good or bad has been replaced with the 9 Word Email. The reality is leads are what they are (is what it is) and nothing is going to change that. We all look for the 5 Star Leads which is a compilation of people willing to engage in a dialogue, are friendly and cooperative, they know what they want, they know when they want it, and they would like us to help them get it.   How to discover the 5 Star Prospects from all the rest of your leads? Everyone has leads that have slipped through the cracks or were prejudged as not good. Gather up those leads and send the 9 Word Email which revives dead leads from NOT now to NOW. https://ilovemarketing.com/have-you-tried-a-9-word-email/ Reference links: http://www.gogoagent.com/ http://gettingreferrals.com/   DEAN JACKSON BIO There have been men throughout history who have captured ideas seemingly plucking out them out of thin air and giving them to an incredulous population. Dean Jackson is one of those men. Dean's greatest joy in life is to find a new idea and share it with those around him. This is Dean's unique approach to marketing. His inspirational approach to marketing is bringing new DNA to the net. His approach is to compartmentalize your business model into three phases: Before, During, and After and using a steady drip campaign finding the multipliers to launch your business into a new dimension. (Conversation is condensed and paraphrased for convenience and flow.)

Did you know down payment assistance programs are real? And that you might qualify? Listen to learn more. Freebie: First time home buyer - the master checklist’s comin' your way! Level up: New Home Buyer’s Guide comprehensive ecourse Contributors to this episode include: Host - Jeremy Goodrich  Copy Editing - Talia Chakraborty If you enjoyed this episode, stick around: SUBSCRIBE on Apple Podcasts.  REVIEW the show and SHARE with friends. JOIN the New Home Buyers Guide course to own the home buying process and the home of your dreams. With a 100% money back guarantee, you’ve got nothing to lose and a sweet house to gain. Thanks for listening!  More great stories & information at: YouTube - Blog - Podcast Insta - Course Full Transcript: Jeremy Goodrich: Hey there, new home buyers, Jeremy Goodrich here. I am that guy. That guy that bought my first home many, many years ago and had no idea what I was getting into. I didn't use a realtor, I didn't have an inspection, I didn't have a clue what documents I was signing, and I ended up, you guessed it, buying a beat-up old house that I spent years fixing only to sell for way less than I bought it for. When it comes to home buying, I am the story of what not to do. But that guy, that guy is not you. You are two times smarter, you're three times more organized, and you're ten times better looking than he was. You're going to find the right home for the right price, and you're going to have fun doing it. That process starts right here with the New Home Buyers Guide podcast. We're glad you joined us. Hey there, new home buyers. It's Jeremy and we are at episode five of the New Home Buyers Guide podcast. This episode is so important, it's all about down payments, but very specifically down payment assistance programs. If you qualify, governments at state, local, and federal levels could potentially help you buy a house by giving you some money for the down payment. Our guest today is going to talk in detail about that process, so you can see if you qualify for that program and if it's something that you can try and do, because it is really like free money. He'll describe that, so I don't want to over state it. Listen to our guest and let him describe how the program works. Our guest today is another friend of mine who works in the home buying process. He's a lender, that means he works for a bank and he puts together loans for people so that they can buy a house. He specializes in loans that connect with first-time home buyers that maybe qualify for down payment assistance. I've been lucky enough to have him help lots of times with questions that I have or my clients have had about lending, and this particular question, I really wanted to dig in with him, because I think the answers are fascinating. Our guest today's name is Kevin Cade. He works at Old National Bank, and he's going to talk about down payment assistance programs. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Thank you for being with us today. Kevin Cade: You're welcome, Jeremy. Good to be here. Jeremy: We're going to talk about something really specific today. We're not talking generally about mortgages, we're talking about down payments, and specifically down payment assistance programs. Programs for people who could use assistance with their down payment. I guess maybe the place to start is, what's a down payment? Kevin: Well, a down payment is a requirement by any type of loan program you have for folks to put money down to qualify for that particular program. That varies from agency to agency, basically. Jeremy: And are there common amounts that someone, that a bank expects from someone for a down payment to give them a loan? Kevin: Well, there's minimums. For example, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, conventional type loans, require a minimum of 5% down. But they also have programs that allow 3% down with income restrictions, so the folks have to make under a certain threshold of income to qualify for the lower down payment programs. They also typically have to have some kind of home buyer training for those two programs. Jeremy: So, someone who doesn't have the money for a down payment, doesn't have that 5% of the purchase price of the home that they want to buy, do they have options for help with that? Kevin: They absolutely do. The government, basically, local, federal, and state, each provide different programs for down payment assistance. Here in Bloomington, Indiana, we have what's called the HAND department, it's a department of the city of Bloomington that provides training and down payment assistance to folks who are purchasing properties in the city of Bloomington. The Federal Home Loan Bank also offers a program called the Home Ownership Program, better known as HOP, and that's a different amount of down payment assistance, and it is a federal type program. And then, at the state level, the Indiana Housing Community Development Authority also has a program that is based on the amount of loan you're getting. These programs all require some type of home buyer training and a maximum amount of income that the people that want to qualify for it, based on the number of folks in their family, have to qualify. Jeremy: So let me see if I've got it right. Generally, if you don't have the money for down payment, and you still want to purchase a house, there are some options. They come from the government, generally, and they could come from either the federal or the state or your local city government, potentially. And there are stipulations associated with that. Kevin: That's true. Jeremy: So, income would probably be the major one. Is that right? Kevin: Yes. And the income parameters for those programs are basically the same. It depends on the family size. It's a percentage of the median income in the area you live in, or the county you live in. For example, with the HAND department, I'll give you a couple of examples that'll kind of give you the range. If you have a couple, or two folks that are trying to qualify for their down payment assistance, they have to make less than $39,950 household income. And it goes all the way up to eight, so if you have six kids in a family with the parents, the maximum amount of income is $65,900 on that program, so they have to make less than that. Jeremy: So in our city, Bloomington, Indiana, we've got these numbers based on median income in our town, and so likely if there is a city program where other people live in different cities, these numbers would be different because they would be based on the median income in that city. Did I get that right? Kevin: That's correct. And all that's based on population density or demographics and income averages within each of those areas, basically by county. Jeremy: Okay, cool. So let's say I fit the income expectation for either a federal, state, or city program. What do I need to do to apply for that? Kevin: Well, the first thing you have to do is, you have to take some kind of home buyer training. There are a number of ways to do that. As an example, the HAND department here in the city of Bloomington offers a home buyer training class almost quarterly. It varies somewhat, but they learn about every aspect of buying a home. I've actually referred people to that program that don't even qualify for the down payment assistance, but that want to learn about the process of getting a home, which can be very complicated. They take that training just to find out about home owner's insurance, the mortgage process. A realtor speaks and talks about the process of looking and finding a home. A home inspector talks about how home inspections work and why you should have one. There's a variety of good knowledge they gain from taking these classes, and it also qualifies them then for the down payment assistance. Jeremy: Okay, so you have to fit an income, and a lot of times you have to take a class. That class could be in your local space, like the one here in Bloomington, or I think there's some online classes sometimes for the federal assistance, too. Different types of classes that you need to take that teach you about how to buy a house and how the process works, right? Kevin: Absolutely. For example, the mortgage insurance companies online usually offer home buyer training. So that qualifies you for the same down payment assistance. Jeremy: Okay, cool. And so, how much money can you get? How much assistance is possible with these down payment programs? Kevin: It varies from year to year. They do change every once in a great while. The city of Bloomington, for example, is a $5,000 down payment assistance program. The home ownership program with Federal Home Loan Bank is an $8,000 down payment assistance program. You can use those in tandem and actually have $13,000 of forgivable down payment assistance. Jeremy: Wow. So you can use more than one if you qualify for them and follow through with the expectations of them. Kevin: Not all banks offer the option of doing both, but some of us do. Jeremy: So, is your mortgage lender in control of whether you can do these programs or not? Should you go to the lender first and ask them if they do these programs before doing them? Kevin: Absolutely. First of all, if you're trying to do both, you want to make sure that the bank you're talking to or the lender you're talking to offers both. The banks sometimes have their own requirements for these programs. Credit score, for example. It might be a higher threshold that you have to have as far as your credit score to qualify at one bank as it would possibly for another. Jeremy: Okay, cool. All right, super cool. I didn't realize you could do more than one, which is really, really neat. So you can even do more than one. Kevin: Absolutely. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jeremy: But you definitely need to talk to your mortgage lender ahead of time, it sounds like that's a major factor in the process. If you're working with a lender that doesn't accept any of these programs, Kevin, would you suggest then looking around for maybe another lender that's capable of handling these programs? Kevin: Absolutely. Just as important as if you're checking to see if a bank offers the type of program you do. For example, not all banks do VA loans. If you're a veteran of the military service, that's an excellent program. It's 100% financing, they don't have the mortgage insurance on that program, they're a little more lenient on credit, because they understand someone that's gone out of the country to fight for their country literally sometimes loses control of the ability to make their payments and that kind of thing. So it's a great program for military folks. Jeremy: Okay. Lastly, is there really anything else that folks would need to do as a part of this program, they're going to their lender, they're making sure that the programs fit, they're talking about their income, making sure that their income fits, they are going to the different programs, potentially looking at more than one. Is there anything else that they would need to do as a part of this process that would be important for them to know? Kevin: No. Absolutely not. That's probably the most important thing, just like you want to research lenders when you're trying to make a decision. Maybe not every lender in one area, but at least choose two or three to see what their rates are, what their closing costs are, if they have these programs. All of the aspects of borrowing money, it's really important to make sure you're getting the deal you want and that you're qualified for it, and they offer what you need to do as far as down payment assistance or any other type of aspect of mortgage lending. Jeremy: Okay. Do they have to pay this down payment assistance back in any way? Is it a loan of some kind? Is there anything associated with that? Kevin: That's a great question. No, it's actually forgivable. Both the HOP program and the HAND money, for the city of Bloomington, are forgiven over a five year period. They forgive 20% of the down payment assistance. After you've owned that home for five years, you don't owe it back. So you have that equity in your property at the very beginning, and ultimately, it's forgiven. Jeremy: I see. So you can't turn around and sell the house three months later and essentially get that money back out. That's sort of how it's set up. It's forgiven over time. Kevin: They would prorate how much you owe them back at whatever point you might pay it off if it's early. Jeremy: All right. There it is, the down payment assistance program could get you up to $13,000 for the down payment on your house. If you think you're eligible, or potentially eligible, the first step to take is to go talk to a lender in your town and ask them about their down payment assistance programs for the type of loans that they offer. Look for them to talk about local programs in your city, state level programs, and federal programs, and ask them if you can combine those programs together, and then ask them exactly what steps you need to take to get that down payment assistance. What an awesome, awesome thing to have available to you if you're in an income bracket that makes sense to have those things. Thanks so much to Kevin Cade for sharing that information with us. If you want a comprehensive online course that walks you all the way through the home buying process, we have created it for you. There are checklists and videos and a private group just for members. You can find all of this at NewHomeBuyersGuide.net. If it isn't the best bit of home buying advice you've ever experienced, we will gladly refund your money, but really, when you see the price, even a third of the information we provide and the community that is behind that pay wall would be 100% worth it. Until the next time, happy home buying.

The show opens with Jeff talking about turning in the manuscript for new/revised edition of Hat Trick. The guys also talk about Captain Marvel. Will reviews Wanted-Bad Boyfriend by TA Moore and IRL: In Real Life by Lucy Lennox and Molly Maddox. Jeff reviews Diversion by Eden Winters. Jason T. Gaffney and Kevin Held join Jeff & Will to discuss their new movie project, the romantic comedy/paranormal themed Out of Body. They recorded the audiobook of the novelization, which was written by Suzanne Brockmann. We also find out about their history-based podcast, The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason. Complete shownotes for episode 180 are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Book Reviews Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: Diversion by Eden Winters, narrated by Darcy Stark. Reviewed by Jeff Eden Winters Diversion series has been recommended to me for some time now and I finally took the leap. This first book was first published in 2012 but just came out in audio in October 2018 with narration from new to me voice artist Darcy Stark, who does a great job with both the suspense and romance. This enemies-to-lovers, workplace romantic suspense story centers on agents for the Southeastern Narcotics Bureau, Richmond “Lucky” Lucklighter and Bo Schollenberger. Lucky’s nearing the end of his forced stint on the job–forced as it was his way out of jail. Bo is new and eager, but is also at the job because of incidents in his past. They end up working together to bring down a ring of drug diversion and insurance fraud that involves a doctor, a drug manufacturer and a drug destruction company. I fell in love with gruff, no nonsense Lucky right away. He’s extremely good at his job, mostly because he used to be on the other side of the law. He exudes frustration and irritation at what he has to do and why and yet there’s a teddy bear in there too because he cares about getting the job done right. The friction that’s stirred up when Lucky’s saddled with mentoring Bo is sublime. Lucky’s looking to ride a desk during his last few weeks at the bureau, but his boss has other ideas. Bo’s very green in terms of what he has to do here–but he is ex-military so he’s no pushover either. He can take what Lucky dishes out and it pisses the senior agent off… and eventually Bo gives back as good as he gets. The friction gets explosive as Lucky battles with himself about the feelings he develops for Bo. The other thing the friction brings is a ton of humor. Lucky and Bo know how to push each other’s buttons–whether it’s blasting Billy Ray Cyrus, forcing healthy eating habits or being messy. It’s a wonderful odd couple pairing that morphs in a beautiful way as it becomes less about antagonizing and more about a sweet nudging of one another to just maybe move things to another level in their relationships. Both men have complicated backstories that make you feel for even more for them. Lucky ended up at the bureau after going to prison for the part he played in a large scale drug operation. He’d been in love with the guy behind that operation and when it all came crashing down Lucky was sure he wanted no part of loving anyone again. The pain Eden created for Lucky is devastating, which makes him all the more loveable when he’s able to come out of his shell. Bo did illegal things to help an ex and ended up taking illegal substances to the point that it’s very difficult for him to be around the drugs in a Pharmacy, which his job requires. There’s also abuse in his past and Lucky’s careful to keep Bo away from triggers as much as he can. The lengths he goes to keep Bo feeling safe are extremely sweet. Eden takes great care in how backstory is presented. Once the men get past their posturing and disdain for each other, they peel back they reveal themselves in a very natural way–as friends, coworkers and eventually lovers do. The good and bad are offered in equal measure and it’s perfect relationship development. The only thing I wanted in this story that I didn’t get was Bo’s point of view. I would’ve loved to know what was rattling around in his head. Not to take away from Lucky though as he was quite the good narrator and this one point doesn’t take away from my love of the book. The Diversion series is up to book seven as of January 2019–with the third book released in audio in February 2019–so I’ve got some catching up to do. I’m looking very forward to that. IRL: In Real Life by Lucy Lennox & Molly Maddox. Reviewed by Will In Real Life combines the classic alpha billionaire character trope with the time-honored scenario of two characters who are combative in real life, but are secretly corresponding with one another and falling in love. Which is the long-winded way of saying it’s a similar set up as the classic movies Shop Around the Corner, You’ve Got Mail, In the Good Old Summertime, and the musical She Loves Me. The way that the characters write to each other has changed and evolved, but the premise remains the same. There’s also hints of enemies to lovers and opposites attract. This book is ripe with tropey goodness. So what’s it all about you might ask? Nice guy geek Conor is in New York to sell his mother’s bio-med technology to a ruthless CEO. The evening before his big presentation he decides to live a little and begins sexting with who he thinks is the sexy hotel bartender. It’s not. The text exchange he ends up having with a stranger, who he calls Trace, is amazing, and through several flirtatious and super-hot online conversations, they begin a fling. At the meeting the next morning, Wells Grange recognizes Conor thanks to the Dalek tie he is wearing. Conor is the hot and horny guy he sexted with the night before. His first inclination is to use this information as leverage in their business negotiations. But Wells quickly begins to fall for Conor, both the sexy online version and the awkward real-life version. As they work through the contracts for the sale, Wells continues his deception. They spend several days together and get to know one another, Conor unaware that Wells and Trace are the same person. We follow our heroes, almost in real time, as they fall in love while working together, going out to dinner, and taking carriage rides in Central Park. Once the business deal is finalized, Wells and Conor finally give in to their attraction and sleep with each other. Needless to say, it’s amazing and life altering for both of them. But, as is the case in stories like these, Conor finally puts two and two together before Wells can come clean about his sexting alter ego. Conor is humiliated and justifiably furious. He packs his bags and returns to North Carolina, with zero intention of ever speaking to Wells again. And rightly so. I’m going to be super upfront with you guys, there are certain aspects of the billionaire trope that I personally find problematic. I was on board with Wells and Conor for most of the story, but there were moments when I had a hard time dealing with certain aspects of Wells’ alphahole personality. In my view, if the ending of this book was going to be believable, Wells was going to have to move mountains and pull off one of the biggest mea culpas in romance history. It may not have been the biggest, but Lucy Lennox and Molly Maddox crafted a finale that was truly heartfelt and genuinely appropriate for our two heroes. To make amends, Wells makes sure Conor’s sick mom is well taken care of and part of an experimental treatment program (her illness was the reason they needed the money from the business deal). Later, when Conor is unable to attend a Comic convention to unveil an important new development in his gaming business, Wells steps in, and personally gives a rousing presentation on Conor’s behalf. Wells proves he isn’t the billionaire alphahole he seems. Yea for true love and happily-ever-afters! Interview Transcript Jeff: Welcome back to the show, Jason and Kevin. Kevin: Thank you. Jason: Hello. Thank you. Kevin: Nice to be back. How you been? Jeff: Awesome. Jeff: Well, we had you on before, we were talking all about “Analysis Paralysis.” But you guys have a lot more going on besides that movie. You’re actually in pre-production right now on a film called “Out of Body.” Jason: Yeah. Jeff: Tell us what that one’s about. Jason: So “Out of Body” is basically a story where it’s a friends-to-lover rom-com. And basically, Malcolm, who’s Kevin’s character, has his body stolen from him and he kind of ends up as a spirit for a while. And he has to prove that he exists to me, Henry, and then when that finally happens, we do some magic, we fight some demons, we might get the body back, there’s definitely a happily ever after because it’s a rom-com. Kevin: You and your end happily-ever-afters. Jason: Yeah. Jeff: It’s important. Kevin: I know, I know. But I just want to the rom…just one time I want a rom-com to be…it’s mostly romantic and funny but everyone does die. Jason: Or they die hilariously. Kevin: It’s a rom-com drama. Jason: Death by rubber chicken. Jeff: And what was kind of the inspiration behind this movie this time? Jason: I don’t even know how this idea came in my head. But I was sleeping one day and I woke up and I was like, “Oh, that’d be really cool. A movie where someone’s dead but they wanted to be together but then they didn’t get to be together. And then they have to fight to get their body back and come back to life.” And so I wrote a kind of a similar but different kind of script. And we did a table read, and my mom was a part of the table read. And she was like, “I love the story you have here. Can I take it and can I change a lot of it and make it like super romance with the comedy?” And so this particular movie and book and audiobook is definitely heavier on the romance than the comedy, as opposed to “Analysis Paralysis.” But it’s, in my opinion, really, really good because the romance really makes…it’s gripping, it really gets you right in the heartstrings. And she basically saw what I was going for and was able to finesse it and really kind of mold it into what my kind of original vision was and then some. So I’m really psyched about it. It’s got a little bit of everything. Will: Yeah, not too long ago, I talked about the novelization of “Out of Body” here on the show. Jason, your mom, Suzanne Brockmann, of course, wrote that novelization, it was rather amusing. Like, I think in the forward she kind of does like a behind the scenes thing where she kind of tells that story where she says, “Jason, this is great. But do you mind if I take it and make it better?” Kevin: Yeah. Jason: Yeah. And here’s the thing, I am all about that. Like the filmmaking, it’s such a collaborative process and storytelling can be a really collaborative process. And I want to make good movies. And so I was really happy with the script that I had written, but when someone who’s as great of a writer as my mom is comes and says, “I want to have fun with this and let me just see what I can do with it,” I’m like, “Hell yeah. Take it. Have at it.” Yeah. Kevin: And the end result is really a script, a novel, and a script that really looks like if brilliant improviser and plot maker and gay comedy guy let his script be taken over by a bestselling romance novelist, what would happen, it would be this. You know. And so it’s really got great, great aspects of all of those elements. Will: Yeah, I really enjoyed the book and the audiobook as well. And I think it’s a really unique opportunity for people who are interested in “Out of Body,” the movie, to check out the audiobook and sort of, it’s essentially like a preview of what they’re going to be getting when the film comes out to the public. Can you give us a little bit of an idea about what it was like to kind of get into the material early before you even like were thinking about shooting by recording the audiobook? Kevin: I can tell you for my part, like, since I’m not one of the writers on this, which is, you know, traditional for me because I’m not usually the writer on a project that I’m acting in. But it’s completely unprecedented to have a novel that you get to perform about the thing before you even film the script. You know, so we get…like as an actor, it’s a freaking dream because I have…so you know how actors have to create subtext and everything, I just have to go to the book, you know, it’s like, “Don’t worry. I don’t have to make it.” It’s already been written down for me. So if I’m wondering, like, what’s happening for Malcolm now, what’s going on there? What’s the deep, deep part of it? It’s already written out for me now. So I would say, so the book is available. It’s on, it’s called “Out of Body.” It’s on Audible.com. And I would say, don’t deprive yourself of the opportunity to say the book was better. Jason: Yeah. And, you know, it was really cool to do the audiobook in general because it was our first audiobook for both of us as narrators. And when we were talking about doing it, we were talking with my mom about it and I was interested in the idea of recording it in a way where it was more like a radio show where we are our characters’ dialogue voices all the time, even if it’s in the other person’s point of view. Whoever’s point of view reads the descriptive stuff in the chapters. But if Malcolm’s speaking, even though I’m the narrator of that chapter, he still says his line, and he still says the lines of the other characters that he had been assigned and vice versa for me. And that was really kind of fun to do because, you know, how often do you get to do kind of a radio show acting gig? And it was also really fun for me as a director to get to do this with Kevin in advance, because, like, he now really knows the story and I know he knows the story. So I know that when he comes to set, that’s going to be really easy. And I got into the head of the other characters as well reading them, and that’ll help me be able to hold my other actors hands and kind of with them through their parts, and still allow them to bring what they want to bring to the role and have it blossom into how great it can be. Kevin: Yeah, and that’s like all separate and apart from the experience of actually recording the audiobook, which you might think was done him some and then me some on consecutive days or anything, but it was actually live together. So we actually recorded in a space that had two recording booths in it. We could both hear each other so that when I am narrating a section and it’s his line, I can hear him do it. And then I jump back in. So it was live editing, like, to take out any breaths or anything, or mess-ups or anything, so, but we got to…you know, it was amazing because I had him in my head the whole time doing it, too. So that was wonderful. It’s a great experience. Jeff: That’s amazing, especially how it connected to your even now pre-production process that you’re involved in because you’re getting ready to shoot in about a month from when we’re recording. In pre-production, give everybody kind of an idea of what that means. What’s going on as you get ready for your 12 days of shooting? Jason: So basically, what I just did was go through each of the scenes and break them up on a piece of paper so that now I have the page count number, like how many pages each scene is. Kevin: These are them. Jason: Oh, yeah. Little strip paper… Kevin: Each one of these is a scene. Jason: And basically, the page count, when it starts, who is in the scene, all that stuff. Because I need to…you know I don’t have every actor every day. I’m going to have Kevin every day because he’s one of the leads. But there’s other parts in it where they’re only going to film for one day…anywhere from one to three days. And so you have to plan their scenes on the same day. And this time, we’re going to actually be filming in two different locations because our neighbors next door sold their house to flippers and they’re doing construction and it’s been kind of never-ending. So we can’t film when there’s kind of heavy construction going on in this house. So we’re going to do a lot of stuff at my father in law’s house and then will come get the rest of it after they’re done here. And so I’ve been doing that with my dad and breaking it into those days while simultaneously working with my cinematographer Nacia to map out which shots are needed for each scene and what angles are we doing. So I put little maps on the other side of the table here. Basically, me drawing out the room layout and doing little circles with an M for Malcolm and an H or Henry, and the arrows pointing they go here and then they go here… Kevin: Oh my god. And this isn’t even talking about how to deal with SAG paperwork or any of the art direction that he’s doing, or any of the clearances that he’s getting for this or that kind of thing. Jason: We’ve got a, we’re going to have a… Kevin: He’s a bit of a doer. Jason: We got Andrew Christian giving us underwear… Kevin: Oh, yeah, we have Andrew Christian underwear over here. Jason: And I’m working with some other companies too. So Outfit is a gay like sports good wear, they’ve given me a patent to us for the movie. Kevin: He’s been stenciling t-shirts and… Jason: Hand design t-shirts specific to the characters. I’m going to be making him a specific shirt three times because he wears the same outfit the whole movie and so if anything spills on it, it’s got to be good and not spilled upon because he magically can’t get stains. And so it’s intense, there’s a lot going on. Like Pinterest is my best friend. I’ve been learning all about how to make DIY Halloween decorations. Because again, when you’re low budget, you can’t spend, you know, $3,000 on set design. You can spend like $200, and so you have to get a little crafty. You have to start thinking like, “Okay, I’ve got five pages of construction paper and a pair of scissors and some tape, how going to make this look like I spent a lot of money on it?” Kevin: He’s like MacGyver. So that’s his experience with pre-production, mine’s a little bit different because I’m not all the hyphenates. So I’m busy making no changes at all to my daily routine. Jeff: You do have a script to learn. Kevin: Sure, when I get it. Jason: It’s in the mail. Kevin: We’re at your house. Jeff: Oh my goodness. Jason: The creating part, like creating the artwork, it actually makes me feel calm. The paperwork stresses me out. And so Matt, thankfully, jumps on that grenade and deals with SAG-AFTRA and making sure that all the paperwork’s there and all the money is in the right place and all that stuff. So thank you, Matt. Jeff: Now, we should say Matt is your husband, so he’s in the production family. Jason: Yes. Kevin: Yeah. Will: So now that our listeners know how completely awesome and funny this project is going to be, can you give us a little bit of info about the Indiegogo campaign? Jason: We have an Indiegogo campaign, basically we crowd-funded “Out of Body” on Kickstarter first, a successful crowdfunding campaign last year. and Indiegogo came to us and said, “We’d like to do an in-demand campaign for you.” So we have an open-ended campaign on Indiegogo right now, where you can help sponsor the film help and get some fabulous rewards, such as DVDs of “Out of Body” when it finally is all finished, you can get DVDs of “Analysis Paralysis,” our last feature film. Kevin: I’m going to get these down from the thingy here. Jason: So you can show people. Kevin: You can actually, because now we’re in the second feature film that stars the two of us. Like we got other projects that I have to do with like if you’re your fans of “Analysis Paralysis,” or perhaps the audiobook of “Out of Body,” you can get these copies, you can get copies of all that stuff. And so as we are on the way to becoming things of all media. Jason: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, so if you go to indiegogo.com and you go, indiegogo.com/projects/out-of-body-a-feature-length-lgbtq-rom-com-movie/, it’s a very long title. Kevin: Really, why don’t you go to indiegogo.com and search “Out of Body.” Yes. Jeff: Or just come to our show notes, it’ll be much easier. Will: Yes, do that. Kevin: Exactly. Go to “Big Gay Podcast” website and it’s going to be in the show notes. Jason: Another place you can find out information about “Out of Body” in the future and any sort of campaigns we’re having, etc., is if you go to tinyletter.com/mypethippo and join our newsletter, you’ll be able to find out things about “Analysis Paralysis” or “Out of Body,” or our podcast, “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason,” all sorts of fun stuff. And yeah, so and basically indie film, it’s low budget. So every dollar really does make a difference. Like if we get enough money to buy a better meal for the cast and crew, everybody’s spirits raised, it gets raised up a little higher, you know, or we can afford an extra day of filming, or we can afford…it really does matter. So thank you to everyone who has supported us so far. And thank you to everyone who comes and supports us after this. Kevin: Yes, indeed. Jeff: Now, Kevin had this wonderful term about you guys, you know, essentially taking over media. You mentioned the podcast, “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason.” It’s a comedy podcast about history. How did this idea spark? Because this just adds to you, I imagine, having to research these historical things. Kevin: Now, Jason does all the research for this, you know, and that’s huge. Like, because basically, he doesn’t have enough to do. But the impetus for the podcast, which is “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason” is, you know, there’s so much bad news all the time. And my mom taught me how to look on the bright side of stuff, you know. If I got one thing from my mom, it was to…I would always complain about this or that and she would constantly remind me of there’s something good here, you know, and you have to find that. And so that’s really the gem of this, it’s really the heart of that show is that, especially when you look around at the news right now, there’s so much bad stuff that is going on. But you have to also recognize that bad stuff creates the opposite reaction. And so who is making the good out of that? You know, who is looking at that and reacting to it in a way of love, or in a way of furthering acceptance, or you know, who’s looking at the transgender ban, for example, that was finally instituted by the Supreme Court? And who is saying, you know, I want to reach out and tell my trans brothers and sisters that you are people and you are valuable and your service is useful and we love you? You know, so who’s doing that? You know, and so that’s what the podcast really kind of focuses on. We do wallow in some tragedy on the podcast because every week we take a historical episode of some varying degree of tragic-ness and talk about it. But then we also, every episode, find out what good that led to. Jason: And it kind of came about a long time ago after “Analysis Paralysis,” like Kevin mentioned in the last episode, we talked a little bit about how we met on a student film and basically got along really well, really quickly, and then we started hanging out together with our husbands and going on double dates, and so it kind of formed this bond. And after “Analysis Paralysis,” which was so much fun, it was 10 days of basically seeing Kevin and laughing and having a good time, I was like, “I don’t want to wait a year-and-a-half for the next project. I want to do something now with you.” Kevin: The experience of just chatting about a topic on a set or something was so much fun and we thought, “We should bottle this.” And then we thought, “You can.” There’s a method for this that’s called a podcast, and that’s what started. Yeah, you know, so now I get to come over here every damn week. Jason: Yeah, come to the Valley. You’re welcome. Kevin: Yeah, when I moved to Westwood I was hoping that my second bedroom would be a good place to record. But it’s not, it’s not good. Too much noise there. The valley’s a lot of things, but it is quiet. Jason: It is quiet. Unless they’re doing construction next door. Kevin: Right. Jeff: You could just turn that second bedroom into a soundproof area. Kevin: No, actually, currently, we didn’t have any…we moved from a house that had a lot of storage into a house that had another bedroom, but no storage. So that second bedroom has just become basically the id of our house. You know, everything’s like ahhhhh, you know? Jason: It’s like in “Harry Potter,” what’s that closet? Kevin: The room of requirements? Jason: Yes. Kevin: It’s the room of please don’t go in there actually. Will: Now, guys, I’m curious. How do you choose which historical events to feature and how much research goes into each episode? Kevin: That’s 100% question for Jason because though I feel that the podcast is a 50/50 pursuit, because Jason does all of the research for the topics that we do, and I don’t ever know what we’re going to talk about until I get here, but then I do all the web mastering and editing and I put up the shownotes and I do all of that stuff. So I feel like we end up spending around the same amount of time on things. Jason: Yeah. So basically, generally about a day of work I kind of surf the web, I find a topic that…like I kind of search, you know, the rabbit hole as to like what kind of weird historical thing is this? And I’ll like Google really weird stuff so my search history… Kevin: Yeah, they’re coming for you. Jason: …completely messed at this point. But like, you know, I’ll look up like “wild strikes historical funny” to see what I get from it. But honestly, there’s been a ton of them I’ve gotten through recommendations of friends and family and listeners of the podcast, and we really encourage listeners to throw ideas at us because there’s some really obscure events in history that I don’t know about that I would love to know about and I could easily find it if I knew to search for it. And so if anyone out there listening has weird events, definitely tweet me or email me. Kevin: You can find him @jasontgaffney on Twitter, and tell him and I don’t want to know about it. Jeff: That’s right. Kevin has to stay in the dark. Kevin: Right. Jason: So what I look for also, I try to look for topics where there’s a lot of tragedy, but you can still make fun of it. Like, if it’s a natural disaster, I try to find one where people made bad decisions with the natural disaster, not that it’s just, like, everyone got screwed and they tried to do the right thing, but they still got screwed because you can’t really make fun of those people. That’s just sad. Kevin: And mean. And it’s really not. I mean, I know we’re talking about a lot of tragedy, and that’s kind of what we focus on. But it’s not a cruel show. It’s not a Schadenfreude, really, because the ultimate goal is to find out what the hopeful aspect of it, who turned that situation into something good, you know. Jason: And you’d be surprised, like, we generally can find it. I don’t think we found one yet where there’s really nothing, no bright side to it. Kevin: No. Because the arc of history is long and you never know what the end result of a pebble, you know, when a pebble goes into a puddle, you don’t know how farther in they’re going to go, you know, and so, like, we talked about that event but that could lead to something incredible later, you know. Jeff: For you, Kevin, since you come in cold to these, what’s been of the episode so far that you’re like, “What? What did I just hear?” Kevin: Oh, my God. Well, the “Empire” panic, for example, has been insane. Like, I have a feeling when I post the episodes, I have a feeling like I hope…My mom and I listened to the Christmas episode over Christmas. And at the end of it, she said, “That was funny and I learned some stuff.” So that’s what…it was like I was, “Oh, good. There we go.” That’s what I would like people to have from it. Is like, “Oh, I enjoyed that, you know, conversation. That was fun and stuff.” But also, “God, who knew?” Yeah, that’s amazing. Because he’s pretty good at this, every episode there’s gonna be some point where I’m like, “Are you kidding? Human beings did this,” you know? It’s always, “Yes, they did,” good Lord. Jason: It’s also it’s gotten way more fun to do the research than it initially was because I was really nervous the first couple episodes to like, “Oh, my God, is this going to be funny? How can I make this funny?” And I was trying a little like…we actually have a couple of episodes that just never aired because I was trying too hard as opposed to just seeing that, yeah, that was absurd. I don’t need to say anything except what they said. And now that I’ve kind of mastered that to a degree. I mean, I’ll keep getting better as time goes on. But now I can really see like as I’m reading stuff, I’ll be like, “Oh, I know that Kevin’s gonna hear that and go, ‘Stop it.'” And then he’s gonna call it out, call the absurdity of it. I don’t need to do anything except, say, like, you know, “And then she picked up the knife and stabbed her own foot.” And it’s like, “Why?” Kevin: Spoiler alert. Jeff: Did you have a knack for history before this, Jason? Or did this just kind of happen? Jason: So I’ve always loved history. I always love the idea of history. When I was actually a little kid, I used to play with blocks a lot. And it’s probably why I like being a producer and a storyteller. I used to have like this giant castle and a giant village and an army of bad guys and I acted out this soap opera for years with the royal family and all that. And I was fascinated with the Romanovs and stuff so I kind of like did a little spoof on them. And so I kind of created like my own worlds, and history and stuff. And so when I can find sites that tell historical stories like a story, which is what history should be told as because it essentially is our story, it’s really fun. It’s really exciting to read it and be like, “No, oh, my goodness, that person’s totally the villain.” And then you read a couple more paragraphs, and you’re like, “Oh, no, they’re misguided. They have a heart of gold. They didn’t know.” And then five pages later, you’re like, “No, they’re just a dick.” And it’s exciting, it’s riveting, it gets you on the of the edge of your seat constantly with how people just constantly mess up. And then occasionally, you have a hero who’s just like, actually a good person, you’re like, “What’s the catch?” So, yeah, you know, history is really fun, especially when it’s told with a fun storytelling lens because… Kevin: And I think that’s like the thrust of the podcast is also it’s about the topic, sure, but it’s also just about how Jason and I interact with each other. And we just have such a fun friendship. And I don’t mean that it’s fun from the inside. I hope it is, but it’s fun from the inside of it. So I have such a good time with him that whatever we’re talking about is going to be fun for me. Jeff: That’s awesome. So besides “Out of Body” and more podcast episodes, what else is coming up for you both? Kevin: I may never work again. Who knows? Jason: We’ve actually started writing the sequel to “Analysis Paralysis” with the hope of filming it at the end of the year, with the additional hope of trying to film it in Palm Springs. Kevin: First time hearing of that. Really? Jeff: Breaking news. Kevin: I love Palm Springs. Jason: We’re gonna do what we can to make it work. And it would require assistance from the Palm Springs community, sure, help house us and give us locations and stuff. Kevin: It’s gonna be all on the gondola. Only there. Jason: What gondola? Kevin: The gondola up to the mountain thing. Jason: Oh, yeah, that gondola. Kevin: The whole thing is set on the gondola. Jason: I was thinking like the gondola with a little stick… Kevin: Yeah, the canals in Palm Springs. Jason: But another thing that I’m actually working on is my dad and I wrote a couple of novellas that you can get on Amazon. Kevin: What are they called? Jeff: “California Comedy Series.” Jason: The “California Comedy Series.” Yes. And I wrote a version of “Fixing Frank” with the hopes to get that kind of ball rolling. And it’s definitely a film that requires a bigger budget than what we have right now. But I’m starting to get those wheels in motion for you know, movie four, five, six sometime in the near future. And so yeah, that’s kind of what I’m working on. Kevin: We keep cranking them out. If people will keep putting them on screens and things, we’ll keep making them. Jason: The goal is to make people laugh. I feel like that’s why I was put on Earth and I feel like that’s why you were put on Earth. Kevin: Well, yeah. I know am laughing whenever I see you so that’s probably true. Jeff: Do we get new “California Comedy” anytime soon? Jason: I have been talking about that with my dad, we actually have a couple that are in the works, it’s just trying to figure out when we have a good time to sit down and edit it. I think after “Out of Body,” I’ll be able to take a look back at one of them that we wrote a while ago and kind of tweak it because there were a couple of things that just never felt right. And so it’s just figuring out how to fix those kinds of plot holes. And then hopefully that’ll be on the market before the end of 2019. Jeff: Excellent. And Kevin, what about you, anything you want to throw out for people to keep an eye out for? Kevin: Super excited about the podcast, actually. You know, going into production on “Out of Body” is really, really exciting. I don’t have a lot of acting projects coming up after that, that I can think of right now. But that’s kind of the nature of acting projects. Jeff: Sure. Kevin: You know, and so the podcast is where you can find us weekly up until the end…and actually, we make announcements there about projects that do come up for us, you know, in the interim. So, you know, to be a loyal listener to the show would be the best way to find out about what’s new with us. You know. Jason: Oh, and I almost forgot. We’re going to try in some way whether it’s self-published or with some other company helping us, the goal is to turn the “California Comedy Series” into audiobooks as well, similar to “Out of Body.” Jeff: Oh, fantastic. So both of you voicing? Jason: Yeah, for two of them. One of them, the plan is to have my good friend David Singletary come in as the role of Mike since that role is African American. And my friend David Singletary is African American and I’m all about… Kevin: Kevin Held is very much not. Jason: I’m all about own voices reading parts and stuff like that. And he’s great. You’re going to love him. Kevin: He is great. I’m a little jealous, but I’m okay. Jeff: Well, guys, thank you so much for telling us about “Out of Body” and the podcast. We wish you much success with those. Jason: Well, thank you. Kevin: Well, much success with your own podcast, gentlemen. Jason: Thank you, yes.  

My guest today is Kevin M. Hoffman. Kevin is a designer, manager, and author who has led teams of designers both inside and outside of large organizations. In the last few years, he's turned his attention to designing better meetings. In this episode, we talk about how he's using information to engage with prospects and clients so they can design meetings that add value to their lives. Photo credit: Michelle Milla Listen to the full conversation https://theinformeddotlife.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/the-informed-life-episode-5-kevin-m-hoffman.mp3   Show notes Kevin M. Hoffman Meeting Design: For Managers, Makers, and Everyone by Kevin M. Hoffman Dan Mall SuperFriendly Super Friends Karen McGrane Google Docs GitHub Dropbox Box Schoolhouse Rock: I'm Just a Bill Bear Note Markdown Google Keep Read the full transcript Jorge: Today on the show, we have Kevin Hoffman. Welcome Kevin! Kevin: Hi, how are you? Jorge: I'm doing alright. Kevin: Good. Jorge: I've known Kevin for a long time, but the folks listening to the show might not know you — so why don't you tell us about yourself Kevin? Kevin: Sure. My name is Kevin M. Hoffman. I go by Kevin M., just because at this point I think there's four or five Kevin Hoffmans in the in the various platforms: email, Twitter… Anytime I speak at a conference, there are two Kevin Hoffmans that always get my replies and there's another Kevin Hoffman that gets a lot of my emails. One time I applied for a bank account and the bank started emailing him right after I left. And I did not want to do business with that take anymore because they didn't write my email address down correctly. So I go by Kevin M. and what I do… These days what I'm doing is taking about two decades plus of experience working in a variety of contexts, but always on a design capacity. So I've worked in nonprofits and in the public sector, I've worked in agencies, I've run companies, you know design consulting agencies. I started a product. And I spent the last couple of years working in a large company — in a Fortune 100 company — and I try to take all of that, and I think about specifically this one piece of everyone's work experience which is meetings. So everybody has meetings. All of our processes — kind of a unit of measure in processes meetings — you know, if you're a designer, and you're part of you've been part of an agile transformation, or you're undergoing that or you're planning one — a big part of that is renaming meetings and following kind of a rigid recipe of meetings. And what I do is take all this experience I've had and things I learned from other people about making meetings do a job that you want them to do, and create ways for people to assess and measure meetings are doing a job for them. And if not, get rid of them. And if they are doing a job help them continue to grow and flourish. I wrote a book and published it last year about this topic. And these days what I'm doing is just talking to different kinds of clients and doing workshops and helping them develop their own meeting health indexes. Kind of a sense of how well the meetings are serving the employees of their companies. Jorge: That's fascinating. I'm hearing you describe this and thinking about how much our trajectories mirror each other. Kevin: Yes. Jorge: Like you, I was recently at a company and as of last year, I left that company, and I'm also independent. And I also have a book that came out, and I'm in the process of transitioning from working as part of a team to working on my own and being kind of more responsible for things like procuring clients and getting things done. Kevin: Yep. Jorge: And I'm wondering what that experience is like for you and what role information plays in that process. Kevin: Yeah. I think the first time I was independent was about seven or eight years ago. And I was really lucky in that I had a couple of former colleagues from working at agencies that had already gone this route of going independent and then building teams of contractors to undertake design projects. And one of them — a guy named Dan Mall — he had already started working this way, and he's worked this way for quite a long time. He has an agency called SuperFriendly. It's named after the SuperFriends, the show from — gosh, I want to say the 80s — I think it's the 80s — where all the DC Super Heroes would come together and the concept… Jorge: Is that the one with the power twins? Kevin: Yeah, where one takes the form of a bucket of water and the other one always takes the form of something else. Jorge: Right. Kevin: But it seems like a bucket of water is always… And they had a monkey, for some reason. I remember that. But anyway, Dan brought me into this world of SuperFriends, which is people who for whatever reason find themselves relatively senior — experienced in their craft, whatever part of the design process their craft is, whether it's discovery and strategy or UI design or front end development or back-end development, whatever it is. And because certain people just like working together, that's no reason that they have to necessarily form a traditional company. They can just work together when there are problems to solve together. And after spending a couple of years working with Dan and other people who worked in that way — in that context — I decided to just try it out and and learn how to really initiate a conversation with someone in any context where you learn about the problem that you might be able to help them solve and then move that conversation through into some sort of formal agreement. You know, the reason I brought up when I first started, is I remember early on a colleague of mine who I have deep respect and love for — a woman named Karen McGrane — she referred an RFP to me. Like there was an RFP for a website for a bank. A small bank — I can't remember the name of the bank — and it was the first time I had ever written a proposal and I remember thinking to myself: I'm going to write this proposal. And I'm going to write the best proposal I can write right now.” Because I'd been writing proposals for a while in agencies… And I'm going to assume I'm not going to get this work, but this is going to become like this… What's the word I'm looking for? I don't want to say “cornerstone” but like this go-to document that as I write other proposals, I'll just pull from this master proposal that I wrote. Jorge: Like a template? Kevin: Like a template, but it's almost more like… I think of it this way, one of the things that I do over my career, a piece of information that I keep, is success stories or portfolio work stories where I came into a situation, I performed certain actions, and I observed certain outcomes. And trying to tell those kinds of stories at different levels of zoom, at different scale… I try to collect those. And I have a Keynote document that has like maybe between 10 and 15 stories in it that are some of the best stories I've collected over the years, but anytime I send that to a prospective client to say “this is what I do,” I might just pick a subset of those stories. But I had to make the master portfolio document at first, you know, and that was that master proposal thing that I made. Jorge: Sorry. I'm just very curious about this. Kevin: No, interrupt me at will… Jorge: So it sounds like if… Kevin: … somebody has to. Jorge: [Chuckle] It sounds like it's a like a kit of parts or like a LEGO box of sorts where you can build customized or bespoke portfolio pieces or portfolio documents based on what you get the sense is most interesting to the prospect. Is that right? Kevin: Yeah. One of the things that I've learned in my work is that I think as a designer. I have a desire for the process to be clear and articulated. And in this case, we could be talking about the process of a prospective client or just a person you meet, a colleague you meet in some context. Their journey from being that to being either a regular client or at least a client that you actually help solve some problems and work with. And I think what I found is it's better for me to think about having good collections and not worrying about the process. So I'll give you an example of what I mean. This idea of the master proposal… I have proposals for workshops. You know, I do workshops at conferences; I do between two and four year these days, and I do corporate workshops. But anyway, I'm in the process of booking workshops. I have some master proposals for generally the kinds of content that I teach, the kind of exercises that I help my clients run, and the kind of outcomes that they can expect. But I don't give that to anyone and I'm fortunate enough that I get some inquiries. I get a nice trickle of inquiries via my website or via conferences I've spoken at. People follow up when their budgets are good, whatever. I always follow up that first inquiry. However, it comes in with a 30-minute conversation. Because in that conversation I want to learn for myself if I believe that the tools that I teach and the methods and the way that I look at this problem… I want to believe that it has the capacity to solve a specific problem that that person is having. And it could be as specific as — and these are two examples from recent conversations –it could be as specific as, “we're about to invest a large sum of money in an agile transformation at a big company, and we want to make sure people can run our daily stand-ups well or know how to facilitate a retrospective.” And it could be as general as, “one of my goals for 2019, for my team, you know, I'm a VP of design and manage between 20 and 50 designers, one of my goals is for us to set an example for what a better meeting is in this organization. I feel like our designers aren't as present as they could be or they're not leading the meetings that we could be having.” So it could just be like, “we just want it to be better.” And in either case, the proposal that I write has to speak to the problem is they understand it. So it's taking that big uber-proposal and then finding out how do they describe their problem, and then identifying the methods and language in my portfolio of success stories or in my existing work that fits that problem, the way they've described it. And then I go through a process where I actually create a Google Doc — ideally a Google Doc, but some sort of cloud based collaborative document — where I say, “Okay. Here's what I heard. Here's what I think I would do. You know, this is a rough estimate of the cost. But first, tell me if this will help you evangelize this in your organization.” And I'll give them a week to comment on it, to rewrite it, whatever they want to do. And the really interesting thing about that part of the process that I've learned lately is that I've had experiences where I've said things that I believe to be true — not necessarily for their company, but just universally true — like I believe that people think they're better at meetings than they are. Right? I believe that people think of meetings as things that can be done relatively easily, and if we have to have one we have it and we get through it. And I also have the belief that most companies don't make heavy investments in improving meetings in the organization as a serious ongoing effort of organizational change. A prospective client came to me recently. I had some language to that effect about how this isn't a common investment, and it turns out it had recently been a big investment they had made, and what they had tried wasn't working. And had I not known that, had I not had that step in the process for them to tell me, “Oh, this language is reminding us of the fact that we've already spent money on this and it didn't work,” and re-tailor the language to say, “this is why this might work where your previous efforts didn't work.” I might have alienated some person signing the check somewhere. Jorge: I want to read back what I'm hearing you say with regards to the proposal, and I want to circle back afterward to the actual process of keeping track of these conversations. But for the moment, let's stay with this proposal. It sounds like there are two parts to this. One is having the “kit of parts” that allows you to assemble a proposal for a prospect, and the other is placing those parts in a sort of sandbox — in this case, Google Docs — that allows you to collaboratively create the final thing with the prospect. Is that a fair reading? Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. I think that one of the interesting things that I've observed in working in design and process is this idea of working in the open, you know. I've been on a couple of teams where they've put into their contracts with their clients that they mandate an open process either they blog the process as it happens, or they mandate an open design process meaning the process as it happens in real time is documented. These days, GitHub and obviously cloud-based things like Dropbox and Box are good for that. But via the web, there's an evolving project story. I feel like it fundamentally… maybe not explicitly, but at a deep level implicitly, requires trust for both parties. And if I do that at the proposal stage — if I say, “Look, we're going to work in the open… In the open as far as you and I are concerned. So I'm going to give you a document. Anyone in your organization can read it and change it, and I'm going to be reading it and changing it as well. You know, responding to your comments — not agreeing with everything you say — but just you know, helping get helping us get to know you.” The benefit of that is it gives me a sense and it gives them a sense of what it's like to work together. So if at any point I or they feel like, “Oh, the way our dialogue is going… We're not speaking the same language, or there aren't really problems here that I think I'm going to be able to help you solve,” or whatever it might be. It's a lower cost way of getting there. And fewer meetings, because all of this comes out of anything from a 15 to 30-minute initial conversation. Jorge: That's such an important insight. Right? The idea that these documents are not just… They don't just exist for their own sake, but they're also a dry run for the process of working together. Kevin: Yeah. Jorge: I'm curious when you say “working in the open”… That sounds very enticing to me, this notion of showing your work and co-creation is something that… something that I've aspired to in my work. I have not always been successful at it. And part of the reason I haven't been as successful in some cases as I would have liked to is that I have found that the openness… So if you open something up, if you open a collaboration process up to just anybody, you might get a lot of voices that are not invested in the outcome in some ways and it could derail the conversation, right? If everyone does not have the same outcomes in mind or if you're not working together towards the same outcomes. In the case of the proposal, it sounds like you're working with a very specific group of people, but does this ever extend to a larger group within the organization? Or do you keep it to your prospect and perhaps a select few others? Kevin: In my experience, for this specific process what I found over the years is that if I keep it to a smaller group and allow that group to advocate for the value they see in working with me and working together, it all also gives me a little bit of information about what their position or a capability of creating consensus is within their organization. I mean if I'm cynical, there's always a process of finding “where am I having a conversation with someone who actually is a signer on a budget?” You know somebody who is actually making a decision about a particular budget. So it's always a good sign… And I generally ask pretty early in the process, “do you have a specific budget that you're thinking about for investing in this problem?” Because I have relatively predictable rates within a range, but if you have a specific budget that you're thinking about I know what it takes for me to do the work, I can write a proposal pulling from those LEGO pieces that is more tailored to a specific budget if I have to. I don't often find that's the case now, but earlier when I was doing really large scale projects with teams of upwards of 9 or 10 people that I would hire, that was more often the case where I would have to be creative within usually six-figure budgets. I would say more often than not like a budget between 100k and 500k and try to really solve a problem within a constraint that somebody really had. But now if I'm talking to somebody early on as an individual consultant — I don't build teams to do the work that I do at this point — and they say something like, “oh, we have to pause the conversation because the person who would make the decision about the budget is on vacation,” that tells me who else I need to bring into the document conversation. And I would say so far in my new consulting practice — my relatively nascent practice — I would say more than half the time I'm speaking to somebody in a position who's managing a budget. But when I'm not it's usually somebody who's really motivated by the problem and has a connection. I haven't had an experience where somebody's playing like, “I really want to talk to you and invite you to come help my organization with this thing, but I don't have any connection with any budget and I can't pay you.” You know, that hasn't happened yet. Jorge: Yeah, but those folks are likely to not even initiate the conversation right? Kevin: Sure. Jorge: They're not going to have a project. Kevin: Yeah. Jorge: I love this idea of the Google Document as a sort of… I don't know if it's fair to call it a catalyst for this conversation to happen that surfaces all this information about the team. The team for you and you for them, right? So it's a way to get to know each other and see if the fit is right. I'm wondering what other tools you use as part of this process. In particular, it sounds like you have multiple conversations going sometimes. You talked about speaking at conferences and having folks who have read your book and reach out. How do you keep track of all these different conversations so that you know where things are at? Kevin: So I generally… If we think of the journey of a sales lead, things generally start either via my website kevinmhoffman.com, where it says on the site pretty plainly, “if you'd like me to come to a workshop for your organization contact me,” and my email's right there. Or I do a workshop at a conference, somebody who's representing an organization has that experience. I explicitly say I customize this workshop if I do it for your organization, and they reach out to me within anywhere from a week to two a couple of months. Depends on where people are in their various budget cycles, and if their budget… If they're at the beginning of a budget and they have a lot of flexibility, or they're at the end of a budget cycle and they're trying to spend down or whatever it may be. So anytime I think about a journey — and I know earlier I said designers like to have this clean process — the metaphor that comes to mind is this: we're talking about SuperFriends earlier. There was also this cartoon thing called School House Rock and the one that I remember and I imagine a lot of people who know what Schoolhouse Rock is remember is, is one about a bill. “I'm Just a Bill sitting here on Capitol Hill,” and how that bill goes on a journey to become a law. So, the first thing I do to keep track of my potential clients is I try to keep a list. It's messy but I try to keep a list in a couple of different places. So I have a big white board in my office. There is the mega list for the week that I'm constantly erasing and rewriting. And as a lead becomes viable… So here's an example of a viable lead, I do a workshop with at a conference, somebody comes up to me and personally says, “I really enjoyed that. I would be curious about having you do this at my company. What do I do?” I say, “well, let's set up some time to talk.” They reach out to me. We actually have a conversation. In that conversation, I'll make a commitment to getting them a proposal pretty rapidly, usually within anywhere from 24 to 48 hours. And that proposal is just that thing that I pull you know different parts of what I've done for other people. I pull in what I think feels right. So the whiteboard list, that's one place that stuff lives. Now let's say I'm in the mode of meeting people at a conference. And if I do a workshop at a conference, I might meet all the attendees in my workshop, but I also might do something like a book signing or I might just meet people at lunch or you know over coffee at a break or whatever. I keep a running list of action items in a very messy way across a couple of different platforms. I really like Bear note. There are two things about Bear note that I like. One, I like that it's kind of a cloud of notes. You can have no taxonomy of how you structure and organize content, but it's very easy — like Google — to find things. So the interface of Bear note is basically a search field, and if you type into the search field and nothing comes up, it turns actually into a title field. So I can actually click on a button and start a note with that title. Jorge: Bear note is an app, right? Kevin: Yeah. It's an app. It's a macOS app but it syncs via iCloud. And I just constantly make these notes. If I'm in a meeting I transcribe my meeting notes in there; I focus on action items. They have a nice little to-do list. They use Markdown to create checkboxes. And ​if you're comfortable writing in Markdown — which is a way of adding formatting to text — if you're comfortable with that, Bear note does a good job of rendering it in a nice way. So I have Bear note syncing on my phone. I meet somebody from a company like IBM, they're like,” hey, we might want to have you. Come do a lunch and learn at some point.” I'll quickly add that to the stream of Bear note that that lives in my life. Occasionally, I might add it to use something like Google Keep. I've bounced back and forth between Google Keep and Apple's Notes app for lists, but usually, those are more like grocery lists and doctor things and personal things. Most of my professional life lives in this stream of Bear notes that I had. When I was at Capital One, I basically installed Bear note on my locked down Capital One system on day one, found out that they didn't allow iCloud synching because of regulations around large banks and had to decide, “okay, where am I going to take most of my notes and carry that device with me at all times?” So that's how I keep track of what conversations I had with whom. Then they make their way onto the whiteboard when they become viable. Once they're on the whiteboard, they become Google Docs. And I'm looking at: okay, what are the recent Google Docs that I've been editing in, watching for comments to come in, or edits to come in from prospective clients and respond you them in real-time? So those become very high priority pieces of content for me. When a proposal is in an active state or a live state. And then the next thing I do is basically establish follow-up steps. So I'm going to reach out to you by this date with these questions. You had said, “okay, the next step is when so-and-so gets back from vacation. We're going to share this with the Executive Vice President. Get approval on this budget.” So that's the next step in the bill becoming a law is getting it passed that approval step. Then… Jorge: Do you do you somehow mark the next steps on the whiteboard? How do you keep track of that? Kevin: The whiteboard is really only the next thing I have to do for the person. So the whiteboard is usually like, “write proposal – client name.” And if the proposal is in a live state, it would be like “get signed work agreement” or “send standard working agreement over” or whatever. The legalese stuff is always… I've found that that's usually pretty boilerplate, but there's always something that goes back and forth in that process of, you know… Something about intellectual property or something about work for hire or there's some aspect of it. In some projects that I was talking about where we've worked in the open, that's become an issue where if I'm doing a large-scale team size project and we say, “oh, we want to blog this process for your community. As we finish things, we're going to put up posts and link people to the design work.” You know, some people have concerns about that being something their competitors would get a leg up on them from. And I have opinions about that. But you know, that's not what this is about. Jorge: This is fantastic Kevin. I'm so excited; I think I'm going to start a whiteboard of my own like the one that you're describing because what I heard you say — and the thing that excites me about it is that it sounds like you have this process where you initiate a conversation in physical space with a person, right? You're talking at a conference or in a workshop, and you follow up… Or the next step is moving a record of that conversation to this digital space with Bear notes. And then you follow up with those folks and eventually if they make it to the next stage, they move out of digital space again onto a physical space, to this whiteboard. And then from there, they move to another digital space, which is Google Docs. Kevin: Yeah. Jorge: It's like the process goes in and out of your digital domains as it moves, like the bill going through Congress. Kevin: Uh-huh. Jorge: Fascinating. Kevin: Yeah. Jorge: T his is fabulous and it's been really insightful. Where can folks go to follow up with you and find out more? Kevin: Sure. So Kevin M. Hoffman is the fastest way to get a hold of me. Kevin M. as in Michael Hoffman dot com. Kevin W. Hoffman is not me on Twitter. Kevin Huffman on Twitter is not me. Kevin M. Hoffman on Twitter is me. My book is obviously out… It's been almost been out for… It's coming up on a year. And you can always get a hold of me through the publisher, Rosenfeld Media. The book's called “Meeting Design: For Managers, Makers, and Everyone.” So the idea is that… The title comes from this idea that we think of meetings as either being the domain of people who are leading the meetings — usually managers — but there's this idea that we're all citizens of meetings. And there's different ways, if I'm somebody who is responsible for making the thing, that there's ways to be a citizen of a meeting, to participate. If I'm responsible for running the there are there's ways to do it, but it's thinking about all angles: how do you make them work? Jorge: It's basic literacy for anyone who has to collaborate with anyone else, basically. Kevin: Yeah. Jorge: It's fantastic that you've written this book. And congratulations, because it's been well received. Kevin: Oh, thanks. Yeah, it's the thing I wanted. Like I wanted to have this book when I graduated from graduate school and I went into the workforce. First, it was in public libraries and colleges. I was in these meetings, I didn't know what they were for and how they connected to our mission and what my role was… And I just wish I had… I wished I'd had a manual of how to connect to this stream of information that's happening in our work. So that's why I wrote it. So hopefully there's a version of me that won't have to deal with what I had to deal with. Jorge: Well and so many more of us will also be able to benefit from your teachings on this subject. And on that note, I want to thank you for your time today. Because we will also benefit from what you've told us today. Kevin: That's how we all figure it out. Right? We all share the ideas and hopefully, somebody avoids some mistakes. Jorge: Fantastic. Thank you so much, Kevin.

Interview – Gene Frederick In today’s episode we have Gene Frederick, a current member of eXp Realty’s Board of Directors. After getting into real estate in 1984, Gene worked for a small independent and then transitioned to RE/MAX for a number of years before purchasing his first franchise. Additionally, Gene spent over 21 years with Keller Williams as a manager, team leader and regional owner of six offices across the nation until discovery eXp Realty. In this episode, Gene discusses how he found himself at eXp Realty, a revolutionary real estate brokerage model, why agents love this model, how eXp sustains 8,000 agents and why he compares eXp to Netflix. Learn More about eXp Realty - Click here to watch a quick 7 Minute Intro Video. Remember our disclaimer: The materials and content discussed within this podcast are the opinions of Kevin Cottrell and/or the guests interviewed.  This information is intended as general information only for listeners of the podcast. Listeners should conduct their own due diligence and research before making any business decisions. This podcast is produced completely independently of eXp Realty and is not endorsed, funded or otherwise supported by eXp Realty directly or indirectly.   In this episode Gene’s background in realty and why he transitioned to eXp Why independent brokers are taking a closer look at eXp Realty Why transitioning away from brick and mortar is sustainable The benefits of utilizing a Cloud Office What is a disruptive technology and why it is important The future of real estate from a broker’s point of view Why top agents are joining EXP Resources To contact Gene Frederick, text 703-338-1515 Gene Frederick on Facebook, https://www.facebook.com/gene.frederick.750 Tweetables “If you are constantly having to think outside the box, maybe the box needs fixing.”   PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION   KEVIN: Welcome to the show, Gene. GENE: Oh Hi Kevin. How are you? KEVIN: I'm fantastic. So you know before we dive in on eXp Realty and I'm going to ask you some questions specifically about eXp. Why don't you give listeners that maybe don't know your whole story your story leading up to before eXp and then we'll talk a little bit about what made you decide to do what you did before you joined eXp. GENE: Thanks Kevin for having me on today. I really loved telling this story because I've been in real estate since 1984, here in Texas. Most of my career has been in the Dallas- Fort Worth area. So when I got into real estate in 1984 I worked for a small independent and then went to Remax and I was at Remax for quite a few years and then in 1989 I bought my first franchise which was a realty executives franchise owned that for five years in DFW and I sold that in 1994 and in 1994 - Boy these years go fast let me tell you - 1994 my wife and I Susan I were two of the first ten agents to launch Keller Williams in the Dallas area and the first Dallas office. And I spent 21 years almost almost 22 years a little over 21 years with KW until I found out about eXp and that's what I want to talk to you about today. In other words I learned about this three years ago and my story is I was basically... I was basically retired as being a manager and team leader my wife and I both are and the team leader Hall of Fame at KW. We were team leaders for quite a long time, regional directors and we also owned at that time we thought we were retiring Kevin. We owned 6 Keller Williams offices across the nation; 3 in California, two in Texas and one on the East Coast and also a region. We owned the Keller Williams region for Northern California and Hawaii and we were basically retired here. We had moved to Austin, Texas 2010 and a couple of my past agents came up to me one day and said "Could you check out this new model?" And I said sure, I don't have anything to do with you. This will be fun. And a gentleman named Glen Sanford flew into Austin, met with me for a couple of days and it was just awesome to meet Glenn and the new model that he showed me and treat me so much. I spent five months researching it. I flew up to Boston to meet the CEO at the time still our CEO and been our CEO for right now eight years Jason Guessing. He lives in the Boston area and those two gentlemen showed me this new model. And after five months of researching it which is exciting. Not even looking I came back to Susan in the spring of 2015, not quite three years, and I told her I said Susan guess what. She goes "What?" And I said, "Well honey if you knew Netflix existed would you own a blockbuster?" She said, "Of course not." And I said "Well honey, we owned six of them." And she said, "Excuse me." And I said "I just found Netflix and that was the eXp Realty." And it was really funny at that time, it had about 400 agents and with the way Glenn's vision laid out in a way Jason was so convicted and Glenn is such a visionary. Seeing something that could go very very big and revolutionizing the way real estate brokerage was going to be run with agents as owners, not the brokers and owners, and I said Honey I think we got to sell all the blockbusters. And she says oh OK and just see you know Kevin try that out for size after 20 years of marriage and look at that and we're thinking we're just about ready to retire. And I said honey this is going to work. This is really going to work. So in the spring of 2015 we sold our six offices and our region and we join the eXp Realty right around May 1, 2015 and we've been with the company two years and 10 months and I can't tell you why I joined. I mean this is revolutionary to me because if you ever read Malcolm Gladwell's books, you know Tipping Point Blank and one of his books I remember one of the headings was and one of the chapters was if you are constantly having to think outside the box, maybe the box needs fixing. And as the real estate brokerage you know I've owned so many franchises I've been through so much of the franchise world I knew that the franchise world was it didn't just need fixing. It really needed a whole new broker box. And when Glen Sanford showed me this model and said Gene the agents, the agents are going to drive this model, not owners. Actually when I first met him, Kevin it was funny, he said and I looked at it and about a month later I called him up and I said "Glenn, I'm curious how much does Texas cost?" and he goes "Well Jean it's not for sale." So what do you mean it's not for sale. He goes well we're not selling franchises we're going to build through the agents and that's when I knew we had a new box and that excited me to grow through the agents with agents as owners rather than owners having to sign leases having to buy furniture having a certain territory which was to me always very very restricted from the owner's point of view, especially on the money side. So it's been two years and 10 months and I got to tell you it's it's like birthing a baby. It's my same for the last almost three years. Let's make real estate fun again. And I'm just having fun being attracted and what I found out Kevin which is funny. I've got to tell you in May of 2015 I started interviewing people in Austin, Texas. This is where I live. I had 20 interviews. Let me ask you this guess how many people of the 20 people and by the way are twenty one on one interviews 18 signed up. Guess how many of those 20 people asked me where the physical office was going to be. None of them. Not one not one. And that's when I went. Why are we building blockbusters. You know there was a reason in the 80s in the 70s that we went to a physical office right. There was a reason before the internet that we had phone numbers attached to the sign that we all funneled into one area and had phone time where agents we went into the back room and answered phone calls from people that drove by signs. And since the invention of course the Internet and the smartphone you know we have agents putting their smartphone number or whatever number they want to have called and straight into that. And there is no longer a reason for that physical office. By the way I had to 18 for 20 the first month. Of the two that did not join, one joined a month later and the other one joined like nine months later and that's when I came back to Susan I said Susan "This is it. This is the next real estate brokerage model that's going to work because I've never been 20 for 20 ever in my real estate career". By the way those were all all productive agents not news agencies are productive agents. KEVIN: You know the interesting thing about that is when you look at coming out of a franchise system you know you were doing that when the company had realistically about four or five hundred agents when you started right. GENE: Yes exactly. KEVIN: And so people like you and Mitch Riback and others have done a lot of heavy lifting. Right. The company is only you know was founded in 2009. At this point it's a whole different world isn't it. GENE: It's so funny because I look back on it. In fact I've got to tell you a story even today it's just makes so much sense to me. I texted, didn't text I actually did a workplace message to our founder our visionary Glenn Sanford today. I said glad you remember two years ago I said I got to tell you. February 29th which was a leap year two years ago. That was 2016. We're talking right now February 28 2018. I said Glen can you remember we were at a restaurant with Debbie and Susan and myself. We were in Austin,Texas at the Oasis Restaurant and Glen had his smartphone out, Kevin. And he was looking at it and I said "What are you looking at,Glenn". He goes "1996 1997 1998." I said "What's that?" He goes It's our agent count and I said we're going to go over 1000 and he goes thousand thousand?. We had a toast and we went crazy. This is just two years ago. So let's fast forward. I said Glenn that night was... To me the hardest thing is getting to 1000 agents just so you know this is 2018 in the first month of January of 2018. We added 1000 agents net every 30 days we're adding over a thousand agents right now. So at the end of 2000 yes, to give you updated numbers, at the end of 2017 we ended up with 6505 agents. Just a little bit over 6500 agents. That was the heavy lifting and now all of a sudden we did a press release just two weeks ago in the middle of February we hit 8000 agents. Kevin that is... and by the way again not with new agents experienced agents. If I had a nickel for every time an experienced agent I talked to says "Where have you all been?" You know when we go to a new town I've never heard of you but where have you been. And I said I don't know I just found them two years and ten months ago. I mean I just found them three years ago. I mean I said I'm like you. I didn't know it existed. But once I saw it I went new model new Model. It's going to work in the book Blink. You know Malcolm Gladwell talks about that there's a blink basically an emotional side of our thinking process. I'm very analytical because Kevin I used to be a financial analyst before I got in real estate. So I have more spreadsheets than anybody on earth. I love thinking analytically but when I saw this model my blink my emotional output was I went this is going to work and it has. And it's just exciting to me to have the Amazon of real estate in fact Stefan Swann Poole, the famous writer consultant that talks about real estate all throughout our industry in 2013. He did an article about us 2013. What a visionary he was. He says these guys are the Amazon of real estate and I don't think the bricks and mortar franchise owners understood what he was talking about. Well, I'm living. KEVIN: What's interesting about that is you talk about the momentum adding 1000 agents a month. It really I want to talk about a couple of different demographics and let you give me your opinion on why you think it's occuring you know Mitch Ryback and Florida was one of the first larger independent brokers that converted into eXp and at this point you myself and a number of other people at eXp are having conversations every week with independent brokers. Why do you think independent brokers have suddenly woken up and go I need to look at eXp realty. GENE: Well there's two things to me. Number one the Bricks and Mortar models the Bricks and Mortar model is dead Kevin. And when I say that if you are running a real estate brokerage especially independents it's hard to get over that 50 75 100 agents, right. You can't hit a level where you just stay there. I see so many of the firms and they think they're going to get to 500 agents or 400. They don't want to do franchises because they understand how hard that is and also pain that franchise fee off the top doesn't make sense to them and really 55% of our industry according to NAR I think at least 55 percent, over 50 percent is independent brokers. So they've struggled, they struggled they went through this last downturn you know 2006 to 2012. That was not fun. Now we've come out of it since 2012. But guess what? It still isn't where they are doubling or tripling in size. You know I met Mitch a year ago in Austin. He flew to see me in Austin. We spent some time together and you know he didn't own his company for 12 years. You know you own something for 12 years and it's you know you don't want to tell the agents that you're not making very much money. But it's a struggle. You know let's just think about it. Leases, furniture, phone systems and you know the independents. Kevin you and I have talked about this. Now they have to compete against the big franchises right. So the franchise rollout some big tech thing and they can't compete. They can't rule that out for all their agents. They don't have the money to do that. So it's very very restricted. We already got in January we got two small independents in Texas one with 40 agents in San Antonio just join us and one with 56 agents in McAllen in south south Texas near the border. That gentleman rolled his company in with 54 agents and we instantly became number two in the market boom! And I really think they're looking at 40 or 50 agents. Kevin you and I have talked about this. Now they can take those 40 or 50 agents and turn them into 100, 150 in their own little team through rev share, through revenue share. KEVIN: Well and one of the things that you and I have talked about and I want to make the point for anybody listening to this is even if you're an independent broker and you have some amount of expenses that can't just be x. In other words it costs you 30 40 50 60 thousand, a hundred thousand dollars a month. Do the due diligence people like Mitch and all these brokers don't necessarily make the expenses go away immediately but get with the right resources and gene you're certainly one of them that can help you do the due diligence because it's not a go no go. I have to make my expenses to zero to make it worth at eXp realty. There is a due diligence process and these independent brokers are figuring out that they can leave some amount of infrastructure in place and make the transition with their agents and then come out of it in 12, 18, 24 months. And like Mitch they've got a much bigger revenue share stream that exceeded what they were making as it had been a broker. GENE: Yes. And with that that was a perfect point to make. Kevin you and I've talked about it let's say that I think the one and MacCallum He had three offices he reduced the three offices down to one because he still had leases he was obligated to. But he got rid of a whole bunch of expenses and then you just gradually work into making sure that the agents get used to the cloud office. They're no longer going to come into the office they're going to go into our cloud office which by the way is the difference maker. The cloud office, we call it our cloud campus I call it a cloud office because that's where everybody is. That's where our accountants are. That's where our tech people are. That's where our onboarding people are. That's where our marketing people are. We have over 180 people right now in that cloud office, Kevin as avatars. And they speak to you just like I'm you know you just walk in and talk to them just like a video game. The cool part about it is when I saw that and when Glenn rolled that out to me I said Glenn I've always wanted to get rid of Bricks and Mortar as an owner. I mean there's not one owner in the nation that would love to get rid of that expense. Love to get rid of all that copiers everything. You name it. I ran it. I ran a couple of the largest offices for Keller Williams ever and those expenses just it's hard to cover those expenses and it just weighs on you even if you're making a little bit of money. Kevin you and I talked about it even if you make it a little bit of money. You're not making a lot of money and it just wears on you after a while. KEVIN: Yes. The message here if you're an independent broker is don't just discount conversion into eXp realty because maybe you've tried to talk to one of the big franchise systems and you couldn't make the numbers work. The independent brokers if they're running through due diligence with Mitch or with Gene Frederick or anybody else in the leadership are figuring out how to do this and understanding rev share and I want to talk about rev share for a minute before we talk about why mega agents and teams are joining. Rev share is something from my opinion. I want to get your concurrence on this Gene. When you were a regional owner you mentioned you owned Northern California and Hawaii. You got paid basically based on the agents in the region. Right it came off the top and you got paid out of the royalties and a franchise system but there was a stream of income that was very predictable. You knew if you had producing agents that would stay with the company. And every year you had x number of them you could predict pretty accurately how much revenue you'd have. Right? GENE: Correct and even in the downturn since the franchises they take money off the top we took money off the top. I was in two franchises. We knew the money off the top. We got that even in 2007 2008 2009 when we knew our owners of the offices were struggling. It was sad they weren't making money but as a region we got our money right off the top. KEVIN: And that for anybody out there you may have heard sort of the noise and information and sort of misdirection that revenue sharing is not sustainable from my opinion. I look at revenue share as exactly the way the franchises pay the regional owners. Do you agree? GENE: Exactly. When I talk to agents because they've never been owners of franchises Kevin like you and I have a ram franchises or ran offices they're just selling real estate. I said Let me explain to you this model would you rather have in your commissions money taken off the top and given to the owners are money coming off the top and given back to you the agents for helping us grow the company and they said was like the one where it comes back to me and I go. That's our system. We're just giving it to somebody different. I was really into this as somebody a couple of years ago and they said Gene you didn't change a sister you didn't change that part of it. You're just giving it back to someone else. Very very sustainable. We were sustainable at five hundred agents. You know now we just did a press release in the middle of February where over eight thousand agents just imagine Kevin could you imagine if you were running an office nationally with eight thousand agents with no bricks and mortar no cost. KEVIN: And that's why it's sustainable and profitable and for anybody listening to this. If you are under the misimpression that revenue sharing is sustainable there's a precedent for this and the franchise system don't let anybody confuse you that taking money off the top out of the revenue stream of the company dollar is not sustainable because the franchise systems take money off the top and they pay the original owners. eXp realty is doing the same thing. And so to tie down the independent broker conversation this is a big way that these independent brokers are figuring out as Gene said earlier to converting the eXp realty they can keep a lot of their systems in place. They can get all of the tools and technology of the eXp realty. They can provide a better environment from a technology standpoint for their agents and at the tail end of it you know if you listen to the interview with Mitch Riback he's making so much more money now than he was as an independent broker. If you're interested in the eXp. Get with the right members of the team do due diligence and understand why it is. Because as compared to things like profit share or other systems, the predictability of revenue share because it does come off of the top can be modeled. You can figure out exactly what your PNL is going to look like, what it looks like later. And as the revenue share grows it's predictable based on the number of agents and if you listen to Mitch's interview you'll see him say my spreadsheet was a big understatement for what I thought it was going to be. I'm actually making more money than I even model that I would do it. And that is why if you're scratching your head as an independent broker how would I ever do this. The piece that you're missing and you yourself if you're considering it to get in and dig in and understand how it works because it may not be apparent from the outside. GENE: And the two things brokers are concerned about Kevin we've talked about forever and I've been a broker of numerous franchises. You have to have a model that attracts people. First of all if they don't sell more real estate at your place than the other place they don't come. We've talked about this. Our technology is phenomenal. I mean Glen and Jason are just bonafide. We're going to have some of the best technology tools for people to get leads to the Internet. So everybody gets conversion for free, right? Sometimes I even get to the conversion part and they said wait it's free here because some of the small independents I talk to say well we do provide conversion for our agents but they have to pay for it. Are we you know 400 a month or 500 a month and I said what if all your agents came in got it free here and they go oh my gosh I can attract a lot more agents in my market and I go yeah we have that and also the second thing for brokers that they don't understand is once you let the agents in the game to help attract other agents they grow. Because most independents go I don't want my agents attracting people I want to track them make sure I do all the interviews and I go wow. Once you let the agents attract people the way they can their salespeople. Oh my gosh. And that's what Mitch told me Mitch didn't realize that his people could attract agents better faster quicker than he ever could because he's letting them into the ownership game. Kevin, like you and I talk about in the royalty game you know they're getting royalties off the top. Wait that's never been done that's never been done. That's why we're getting number one agent Louisiana. Darren James number one agent Tucson, Arizona. You know number one agent Richmond, Virginia I could name the town's number one agent Nashville. I won't name everybody's names I'm sorry but it's just like why are the top people why are they looking at us. And joining us in a week. 10 days from start to finish. Because it's a brand new model. You and I have talked about a lot of people come to me and they go well can you compare it to this company or the company that got started in the 70s the company that got started in the 80s and I go well they're franchise models and we just don't compare. I can't even compare it's a brand new. It is Netflix right. Just like Netflix and Blockbuster. You know I love using that example because blockbuster both watching movies right. We're both watching movies. But let me ask you a question Kevin. What was the technology that did away with Blockbuster? Streaming video. So when that technology, it's called a disruptive technology, you hear it all the time on Shark Tank. When you hear somebody go I've got a disruptive technology which means it's going to change the way we do something right. And your first to market with it the fact that you have a disruptive technology plus your first to market with it boom right. Wow! And that's why I compare it does everybody gets confused because a they said well you guys don't have any offices. See we do. We have offices. In fact you can go to any Regis we have a national arrangement. Kevin with Regis across the United States. So in every town there's always a five or 10 Regis's if you want to meet a customer in an office, meet him right there. But I think everybody gets confused with the fact that we have a game changer and when Glen Sanford saw he caught it early late 2009 is when he started the company says Gene. I just went to everybody and said no more bricks and mortar. He had three offices. He says I'm shutting everything down. I mean man, that takes a lot of gumption to do that in 2009. But he says I believe in this model that agents will go to our office. I can get to the office with my iPhone now. I can go in just straight to my iPhone. Of course I can get it on my computer and boom don't have to get dressed, don't have to drive to the office. It is the way real estate is going to be run from the broker's point of view. I think the next 10 years. KEVIN: It's certainly as you described earlier a disruptive model and I agree with you. I think if you get to 21 22 in terms of 20 21 22 most of the bricks and mortar operations will have to go away. Same way the blockbusters went away. So let's tie down the agents obviously productive agents are joining eXp realty. There is no take away from the standpoint of the economic model right in other words people aren't joining hoping to do better. We talked a little bit a minute ago about tools and technology but from an economic model it's not a take away for an agent to join eXp is it. GENE: Oh my gosh no. We have the same cap for every single agent in the company. I love it. Everybody's on an 80 20 with no royalty, no royalties a biggie. So once they pay 20% and an equal sixteen thousand dollars. Kevin That's our cap. And then they go to 100%. So it's kind of neat. We're getting people that do over a hundred million a year, 100 million in production with big teams and they said what's the structure and I said well it's one camp 16000. You can go to as many cities as you want in your state. You can go across state lines and have agents in other states and they go what you mean I don't have to pay another cap in those cities are in that state. I go no because we don't have franchises. We haven't sold franchises in those cities like the other ones. So a lot of the other models we compare for the large large teams love the fact number one that they can expand their team only pay one cap for the lead agent and the other agents are a half cap. All right. And then here's the second thing that we're noticing Le Page and Johnson from Charlotte, North Carolina. They joined us last spring and she said Jane they brought over 16 agents with them they do over 100 million a year. And she said Gene what I realize now after being with the eXp for three or four months is I knew it would be beneficial for my team because I care about my team members but they love it more than I do. And I said What do you mean? They go. She goes oh my gosh they get all the benefits I do. So they can take for example on the stock they can take 5% of their commissions every month. The team members can as well as anybody and purchase stock every single month at a 20% discount. I mean they're creating equity in their lives. So they're team members are being able to create equity. They're team members are being able to help attract. We call referrer agents as they're doing transactions and now they're team members are getting revenue share stock and she told me she was I've never had a happier team members in my life because their teams just like brokers because the big teams Kevin are like small brokers right. They're concerned with how to attract agents to my team and how do I retain them. It's all about retention. And they said we're not losing anybody now because they're aquiring stock. They're acquiring revenue share and they're happy again. I can't believe I've got Brett Gove. I talked to a year ago year and three or four months ago I think is one of the top agents in Northern California. I talked to him on Thursday. He came and talked to Glen and Jason at our national convention. It just happened to be at that time he signed up the next Friday. Kevin I'm talking. One of the top agents in the nation joins in eight days. It's a compelling value proposition for sure. And he came to the convention I love it because all these top people come to the convention by the way we have two conventions a year, one in April which is our stockholders meeting every year. We believe in getting together and networking. And then of course we have one in October which is our national convention. Same thing. Great networking and learning things. But what's funny is when they came to these he brought two people with him. I love telling Brent's story because Gene I brought two people with me and I told him OK talk me out of this. Talk to everybody and find out what's wrong with this model. Of course he comes back and on Friday He's about ready to leave and he talks to those two gentlemen they were standing right next to me he said what did you find out in he. Man this model is real. This is working and he goes OK I'm in. KEVIN: What's interesting about that is you and I were both team leaders and we recruited a lot of agents in our day and the franchise system. It's unheard of to have teams and mega agents convert in that quick period of time and I think it's a testament to the value proposition and the fact that between revenue share and the ability to buy stock and earn stock based on the way EXP lays it out. What are your thoughts on the noise in the market about revenue sharing. Obviously we've got enough experience with it now and I interviewed Mitch a number of other people and as you mentioned people that are teams it's a huge retention item for mega agents and especially mega agents with teams because unless they're going to set up some sort of profit share and 401 K for their team members they don't have the ability to do anything close to this in terms of creating wealth. GENE: Well the same with small brokers. When I say small brokers any broker that has 50 agents or 100 agents or 200 agents, as big as a broker can get there really running their team. They don't want people to leave right. So I was talking to a broker just the other day and he says Gene the hardest thing is I train them, coach them. They stay with me for a couple of years and then they leave. Right when they're getting ready to be really really productive. And I said well you want to solve that. And he goes what. And I said get him into our system. It will retain them when they get stock. They want to see that stock go up. They have ownership in it because you've never give them ownership. So the same thing with the teams the small brokers what they're beginning to realize that I knew it would happen Kevin. I knew it three years ago. But now it's starting to happen. Even though they're doing OK. Right. We haven't had another shift yet in our market really nationally. But the brokers are going. You mean I can turn 50 agents into a hundred. I said Let me show you what Mitch Ribak did. Let me show you the small you know they're just getting it. They're getting it. And all of a sudden they're going Wow!!. And of course as a broker if you're tired of running that doggone office you're not the broker anymore. Right? That's a big thing. Our states are all run by a broker. We have supervisory brokers because in big states like Texas where we have close to 2000 agents we have a head broker and four supervisory brokers. So we have a lot of brokers to take care of that and they go, oh you mean I don't have to answer the broker questions. I said No I'll go to the broker. Just bring the agents let them run and let them produce. KEVIN: Absolutely. So if you're listening to this it doesn't matter if you're an independent broker or a mega agent or a team in a team lead you can go to the show notes and there's an intro video it's like seven minutes long you can get all the sort of facts and information that Gene and I are talking about. And then you really want to dig in and get due diligence. You know whoever introduced you to eXp realty can introduce you to whomever you know whether it's Gene or me or any of the other leaders around the country that can help you get the right information to make a good decision. Doesn't matter if you're a broker a mega agent or otherwise. If you're scratching your head as to why people are joining. That's the first step. Watch that intro video that's in the show notes and then go back to whomever introduced you to eXp Realty and say all right I'm intrigued enough. I want to dig into it and then they'll get you pointed in the right direction to get connected. Gene any final thoughts on that I want to get your contact info in case anybody wants to reach you. GENE: The only final thought I would say is I want to say something to everybody out there especially where we are not. First the market is everything. When you look at all the marketing books and I'm a, you know I graduated with a business degree and all the marketing books I've got an old marketing book and the number one thing in marketing is being first to market. That's why I have an iPhone. That's why a lot of us love Pandora. This is why you know what I look at first to market with anything, Netflix, Air BnB. When I see first to market even Uber right. When I see first the market, people don't really understand how huge that is to be first in your market to bring eXp to your area. You know we have the tools to show you how to explain the model. Kevin and I want to share them with everybody. And the fact is if are first to market I don't want you to wait two years, three years and say I'm just going to wait to see if it's going to work. It is working. It's working nationally right now. So get on board. I can't wait to work with everybody. I just don't want people to go well you know I'll just wait and see if they make it. Come on now. Just don't wait. KEVIN: Absolutely. I've had that same conversation with people were there like well I see a few agents in my market. I'm a mega agent and I've got a team I do 20 30 million dollars a year and you know I don't see the people that I mastermind with are my peers. That's not typical when Gene joined eXp in Texas he just mentioned there's 2000 agents are very close to him right now. I think there were five agents in the state and a few major decision like a mega agent would if they made a mistake they wouldn't even recognize what happened in Texas. GENE: Yes correct. And so that's what I always say to folks get rid of that fear. It's not really a fear at all. We're selling real estate just like you would anywhere else. If it doesn't work out you can always go back to your other company right. But but I can tell you once you come into our system and see the tools and the people because we're all made of people and the people just like you that you can mastermind with nationwide through the cloud collaborate so easily because I'm telling you right now. Kevin you know as well as I do there's a few people in my world that I talk to two and a half years ago. They are just now joining now. I said well it was available to you two and a half years ago and they go well I'm starting now. I'm going now and I go good. But if you're in a town where we're not even in yet, guys we can open immediately. We do not need bricks and mortar. We just need good quality agents. We talk about it all the time in our attraction. It's quality not quantity. We want quality agents so come join the explosion as we call it the eXp explosion. And it really is happening and I can't wait to work with everybody. KEVIN: Fantastic. Gene if somebody is listening to this and they want to reach you how do they get in touch with you. GENE: The best way to reach me guys if you want to is texting. Please do not e-mail me. You can. Really pretty much find me. I'm in Austin Texas. My name is Gene Frederick but my cell number and I'll give it to you so you can text me or private message me on Facebook you can private message me on Facebook of course just Gene Frederick is on my Facebook account but 703 3381 515 is my cell number 703 3381 515. Just text me. I really respond fast. I can't wait to work with all of you. KEVIN: Fantastic. Thanks for coming on the show. GENE: Thanks Kev. Take care.

Intermediate level mall conversation. Amharic (Script) Chéri: T'ena yïst'ïlïñ sïme Chéri yïbalal. Guwadäñaye Bäza tïbalaläcč. Yänantäss? Kevin: Yäne sïm Kevin yïbalal. Yä’gwadäñaye dämo Steven yïbalal.  Chéri: Ïzih mall tazäwätïralacču wäyis Ïzañaw? Kevin: Awo ïzihïm ïzañawïm bäbïzat ïnmät'alän. Ïnantäs? Chéri: Ïña yämäjämäriyacčïn gize näw. Kevin: Tadiya wädädacčut? Chéri: Awo, wädänäwal tïnïsh wïd näw ïnji Kevin: ehmm... ïrgït' wïd näw English Translation (Script): Chéri: Greetings, I am called Chéri. My friend is called Beza. Yours (pl.)? Kevin: I am called Kevin. Also my friend is called Steven. Chéri: Do you all visit this mall frequently? Kevin: Yes, we come to this and the other one often. You all? Chéri: This is our first time. Kevin: So then, Did you like it? Chéri: yes, we like it. It’s just a little expensive. Kevin: ehmm… surely it’s expensive.

Mall conversation in Amharic with English translation and explanation. Amharic (Script) Chéri: T'ena yïst'ïlïñ sïme Chéri näw. Guwadäñaye Bäza nat. Yänantäss? Kevin: Yäne sïm Kevin näw. Guwadäñaye dämo Steven näw.  Chéri: Tïlïq mall näw ayïdäl? Kevin: Bät'am! Sïnt suq gobäñacču? Chéri: Amïst. Ïnantäs? Kevin: Ïña hulät bïcča! Chéri: Wïyï! Däkämacču? Kevin: Awo bätam yadäkmal. English (Script) Chéri: Greetings, my name is Sherry. My friend is Beza. You all? Kevin: My name is Kevin. Also my friend is Steven.  Chéri: It’s a big mall isn’t it? Kevin: Very! How many shops did you visit? Chéri: Five. You all? Kevin: We only two! Chéri: Aww! Are you all tired? Kevin: Yes, it is very exhausting.

Panel Kevin Munc (twitter github blog) Jaim Zuber (twitter Sharp Five Software) Rod Schmidt (twitter github infiniteNIL) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 00:27 - Custom Integration for iOS 02:58 - Jenkins CI 05:49 - Running Unit Tests from the Command Line 08:10 - Custom Integration (CI) 15:46 - Report Tools GCover Cobertura PlistBuddy 19:19 - Distribution TestFlight 21:50 - Continuous Deployment 24:47 - Travis CI 25:15 - Cloud Options for Setting up CI Hosted CI MacMiniColo TeamCity 27:22 - UI Automation 29:18 - XCUnit Specta Picks Host Xcode Server in a data center (Rod) NSScreencast (Rod) Intro to OCHamcrest (Jaim) Switch Your Control Key (Jaim) Gcovr User Guide (Jaim) Sketch (Kevin) Pixa (Kevin) Next Week Building Hardware for iPhones with Joel Stewart Transcript CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 29 of the iPhreaks Show. This week on our panel, we have Jaim Zuber. JAIM: Hello from Minneapolis! CHUCK: Rod Schmidt. ROD: Hello from Salt Lake. CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv. We've got a special guest, and that is Kevin Munc. KEVIN: Hello from Memphis, Ohio. CHUCK: So we brought you on today to talk about continuous integration for iOS. Now, if I remember right, didn't they add some kind of continuous integration thing to xcode? KEVIN: Yes. There is the bots now with the server, so you can avoid Jenkins if you want to. CHUCK: [Chuckles] KEVIN: It's still got some limitations. And I think going through the pain with Jenkins ends up giving you more flexibility at this point in time, but it's a really good sign that Apple is putting some effort and attention on quality and continuous integration. CHUCK: Right. But that's not what you were talking about; you're talking about people using Jenkins? KEVIN: Yeah, that's where most of my experience is from. I've been doing continuous integration in other platforms for a long time; CruiseControl back in the day, and Jenkins for iOS stuff. JAIM: It's pretty much the standard that people have been doing Jenkins for a while, would like to get into the bots, but they are not quite ready for primetime is what I'm hearing. Have you played enough around the bots to know that they are not quite ready? KEVIN: Somewhat. And I do sort of run into trouble at different points in time, just trying to know where the configuration options are, especially if I'm trying to back out… I'd like to do some blogging on it, do some speaking on it. So, I'm trying to get more familiar with it because that's something that is in my wheelhouse here. But yeah, I'm definitely trying to go back and redo some things. And I run in to these issues that I didn't run into the first time. And then trying to do things like… I usually in my continuous integration setup, there's the basic stuff where you does a build, do the tests, run and pass, and maybe some other stack analysis and reports. I usually try and add other things like have a ping to see if the APIs are healthy or not, and things like that. I haven't figured out how to time that sort of thing into the new bot stuff. It seems it's focused on the bare essentials at this point. And so, it's kind of a lot to expect, I guess. ROD: Do you have to have a separate machine to use bots? KEVIN: No, I've been fiddling with it right on my laptop that I can do my normal development on. You need to get the server app from the app store, and I think you get promo code through the dev portal, so you know to buy it. And then I just run it locally. It has a lot of options on it and then at bottom is the xcode stuff. CHUCK: Nice. So let's harp back over to Jenkins real quick. So you set up Jenkins on… do you have to run it on a Mac? Like a Mac Mini or something? Or can you run Jenkins on a Linux machine and still do the CI stuff? KEVIN: No. You have to have a Mac.

Panel Kevin Munc (twitter github blog) Jaim Zuber (twitter Sharp Five Software) Rod Schmidt (twitter github infiniteNIL) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 00:27 - Custom Integration for iOS 02:58 - Jenkins CI 05:49 - Running Unit Tests from the Command Line 08:10 - Custom Integration (CI) 15:46 - Report Tools GCover Cobertura PlistBuddy 19:19 - Distribution TestFlight 21:50 - Continuous Deployment 24:47 - Travis CI 25:15 - Cloud Options for Setting up CI Hosted CI MacMiniColo TeamCity 27:22 - UI Automation 29:18 - XCUnit Specta Picks Host Xcode Server in a data center (Rod) NSScreencast (Rod) Intro to OCHamcrest (Jaim) Switch Your Control Key (Jaim) Gcovr User Guide (Jaim) Sketch (Kevin) Pixa (Kevin) Next Week Building Hardware for iPhones with Joel Stewart Transcript CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 29 of the iPhreaks Show. This week on our panel, we have Jaim Zuber. JAIM: Hello from Minneapolis! CHUCK: Rod Schmidt. ROD: Hello from Salt Lake. CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv. We’ve got a special guest, and that is Kevin Munc. KEVIN: Hello from Memphis, Ohio. CHUCK: So we brought you on today to talk about continuous integration for iOS. Now, if I remember right, didn’t they add some kind of continuous integration thing to xcode? KEVIN: Yes. There is the bots now with the server, so you can avoid Jenkins if you want to. CHUCK: [Chuckles] KEVIN: It’s still got some limitations. And I think going through the pain with Jenkins ends up giving you more flexibility at this point in time, but it’s a really good sign that Apple is putting some effort and attention on quality and continuous integration. CHUCK: Right. But that's not what you were talking about; you're talking about people using Jenkins? KEVIN: Yeah, that’s where most of my experience is from. I've been doing continuous integration in other platforms for a long time; CruiseControl back in the day, and Jenkins for iOS stuff. JAIM: It’s pretty much the standard that people have been doing Jenkins for a while, would like to get into the bots, but they are not quite ready for primetime is what I'm hearing. Have you played enough around the bots to know that they are not quite ready? KEVIN: Somewhat. And I do sort of run into trouble at different points in time, just trying to know where the configuration options are, especially if I'm trying to back out… I’d like to do some blogging on it, do some speaking on it. So, I'm trying to get more familiar with it because that’s something that is in my wheelhouse here. But yeah, I'm definitely trying to go back and redo some things. And I run in to these issues that I didn’t run into the first time. And then trying to do things like… I usually in my continuous integration setup, there's the basic stuff where you does a build, do the tests, run and pass, and maybe some other stack analysis and reports. I usually try and add other things like have a ping to see if the APIs are healthy or not, and things like that. I haven’t figured out how to time that sort of thing into the new bot stuff. It seems it’s focused on the bare essentials at this point. And so, it’s kind of a lot to expect, I guess. ROD: Do you have to have a separate machine to use bots? KEVIN: No, I've been fiddling with it right on my laptop that I can do my normal development on. You need to get the server app from the app store, and I think you get promo code through the dev portal, so you know to buy it. And then I just run it locally. It has a lot of options on it and then at bottom is the xcode stuff. CHUCK: Nice. So let’s harp back over to Jenkins real quick. So you set up Jenkins on… do you have to run it on a Mac? Like a Mac Mini or something? Or can you run Jenkins on a Linux machine and still do the CI stuff? KEVIN: No. You have to have a Mac.