Podcasts about lisa yeah

In this episode, Lisa and Brea explore the phenomenon of low ticket offers and how they can be a game-changer for your business. While high ticket items often steal the spotlight, we believe that low ticket offers have their own unique magic that can help you build relationships and grow your business. Plus, we have a special invitation for you! Make sure to listen to the end for an exciting new opportunity to connect with other listeners, ask questions, and get support as you implement what you learn. Let's unlock the potential of low ticket offers together! Work With Us to Decide on Your Low Ticket Offer BREA Roper Communication | Woo | Activator | Futuristic | Connectedness If you need a Strengths Hype Girl for yourself or your team, connect with Brea at brearoper.com. She's ready to deliver an inspirational keynote, empowering training, or transformational workshop. If you're looking for an expert guide to support your internal Strengths efforts, reach out today! LISA Cummings Strategic | Maximizer | Positivity | Individualization | Woo To work with Lisa, check out her resources for independent coaches, trainers, and speakers. Get business tools and strategy support with her Tools for Coaches membership.   Takeaways on Using Low Ticket Offers In an Independent Coaching Practice   The power of the no-brainer factor. Low ticket is a strategy for creating offers that your audience can't resist, making it easy for them to say "yes!" ●      Transform Browsers into Buyers: By offering low ticket items, you can convert freebie seekers into paying customers. This shift not only establishes a business relationship but also increases the likelihood of repeat purchases in the future. ●      Creative low ticket ideas: Steal some of Lisa & Brea's favorite low ticket offerings that you can implement in your coaching practice. ●      Leverage Existing Content: Coaches can create low ticket offers from existing materials, such as recorded webinars, activity guides, or coaching templates. This allows you to monetize content you've already developed, making it easier to generate income. ●      Build Trust and Value: Low ticket offers can help establish trust with your audience. When clients see the value in your lower-priced products, they are more likely to invest in higher-ticket items down the line, creating a sustainable business model.   Take Action to Build a Low Ticket Offer Strategy ●      Define Your Low Ticket Offer: Determine what your low ticket offer will be. Remember to make it a “no-brainer” for potential customers. ●      Repackage an Existing Asset: Look through your existing materials (like recorded webinars, handouts, or coaching questions) and package them into a low ticket offer. Aim to create something that provides value and can be easily sold, such as a workbook or an activity guide. ●      Ask For the Sale: After you create a clear offer, it's time to communicate it to your audience. Remember, people who have bought from you before are more likely to buy again. ●      Automate Your Sales: Consider exploring ways to automate the sales of your low ticket offers, such as through email marketing or online sales platforms, to generate income while you focus on other aspects of your business.

Lumpy cash flow. Unpredictable income. Feast or famine.   If you own your own coaching business, you've probably ridden the revenue rollercoaster a time or two. Scary for some, and exciting for others. Either way, this episode is for you! Join us as we explore strategies to smooth out the lumps and create stability in your cash flow, OR learn how to lean into the dips and curves so you can, dare we say, enjoy the bumpy ride!

What do math dreaming, crowdfunding, and Sunday night heart palpitations all have in common? You'll have to tune in to find out!

Selling to corporate clients can be exciting, and sometimes daunting. And everyone wants to know…what's the secret sauce? From the thrill of landing big contracts to the unexpected surprises that come with corporate red tape, we cover it all. You'll hear about the challenges of finding the right decision-makers, the complexities of procurement processes, and the importance of pricing your services appropriately to account for those hidden costs. We also discuss the potential rewards of working with corporate clients, like the opportunity for repeat business and the chance to make a significant impact on a large scale. Plus, we share tips on how to leverage your unique strengths and experiences to connect with corporate teams effectively. So, if you're considering selling to corporate clients or just want to learn more about what it takes, this episode is packed with valuable insights and a few laughs along the way!

Thinking about offering group coaching programs? This episode is for you!   We explore the many benefits it offers – for those being coached and also for coaches themselves. Things like opportunities for support and feedback, profitability and scalability, and developing deep, lasting friendships.   We also share a few different program structures we've tried, and the impact we've seen. If you're curious about how group coaching can benefit your organization, or if you're a coach looking to expand your offerings, tune in to this episode!

This episode explores why having a clear and distinct signature offer is crucial for your coaching practice.   Whether you're an internal coach or running your own independent gig, clarity is key! Having a clear and distinct offering can make all the difference in attracting the right clients and maximizing your impact.   That's why we discuss the importance of aligning your signature offer with both your strengths and your clients' needs. We also share tips on how to choose the right modality and service, and even how to frame your offering around the problems you solve. Plus, we sprinkle in some fun anecdotes and examples from our own experiences, to make it clear – while you can have multiple offerings, a standout signature offer makes you memorable and repeatable.   So, grab a notepad and pen, settle in, and let's get you on the path to creating a signature offer that truly reflects your unique coaching style!

In today's episode, we dive into building your personal brand as a coach. You'll hear about "Connected Kelly," a coach who initially felt pressured to conform to an analytical persona in her big tech job, only to discover that her true strength—Connectedness—was what truly set her apart. You'll learn how she transformed her approach, leading to a more fulfilling and energized coaching practice.   We also explore practical tips for building your personal brand, including how to identify the challenges you can help solve and how to communicate your unique value effectively. Whether you're an independent coach or working internally at a company, it's important to be specific in your messaging to connect with your ideal clients.   So, if you're ready to make sure your coaching brand aligns with your personal brand, this episode is packed with insights and actionable advice to help you shine!

Every coach grapples with today's topic: Should you avoid bias while coaching? We kick things off by acknowledging that the answer isn't as straightforward as it seems. While many might instinctively say "yes," we explore the nuances of bias and how it can actually play a positive role in coaching. Whether you're an independent coach or working within a company or organization, this episode is packed with insights to help you embrace your unique coaching style while still being the best support for your clients. Let's get into it!

In today's episode, we dive into the essential, yet often overlooked, concept of "working on your business" versus "working in your business." We share our personal experiences and insights on how taking intentional time to strategize can transform your entrepreneurial journey. If you've ever felt like you're just spinning your wheels, constantly reacting to the demands of your business, this episode is for you! We discuss the importance of stepping back, assessing your goals, and making those scary but necessary decisions that can lead to greater profitability and joy in your work. You'll hear us chat about the value of business planning retreats and how they can help you align your offerings with your strengths. Whether you've been in the game, are building a side hustle, or are still dreaming of the entrepreneurial life, it's imperative to pause, reflect, and create a roadmap for success. So pull up a chair, settle in, and get ready to be inspired to take that much-needed time for yourself and your business!

Goal setting. Does setting and getting goals light you up and get you groovin? Or maybe you're not a big fan. Either way, this episode focuses on how to set yourself up for success – by using your Strengths, of course! We believe that when you approach goal setting through the lens of your individual talents, it not only makes the process more enjoyable but also opens up a whole new realm of possibilities that you might not have considered before. Tune in for personal anecdotes and insights about how leveraging your strengths can transform your goals from mundane tasks into inspiring challenges. We discuss the importance of having a solid action plan and the value of check-ins to keep you on track. Plus, we emphasize that even if a goal feels outside your natural strengths, you can still use your unique talents to achieve it. So, whether you're looking to set a Big Hairy Audacious Goal or just want to make your bed every day (no judgment here!), this episode is packed with tips and strategies to help you set it and get it!

Did you know that frustration and burnout your talents can be ‘hangry'. In today's episode, we dive into the delightful concept of nurturing your nature! Life can be tough, and we all know that adulting isn't just a walk in the park. So, why not focus on what makes you shine? We discuss the importance of not just using your strengths, but actively nurturing and developing them to unlock their full potential. You'll hear us chat about the nuances of nurturing your talents, the idea of nourishing them like a well-cooked meal, and how to create opportunities for your strengths to thrive. We even share some personal reflections on our own talents and how we are intentional about feeding them. So, if you've ever felt like your talents are a bit hangry or underutilized, this episode is for you! Join us as we encourage you to take a moment to reflect on how you can start nurturing your nature today.

Maybe you're a planner like Lisa, whose calendar resembles a game of ‘time Tetris', more spontaneous like Brea, who's a little more free-flowing, or somewhere in between. No matter how you do it, taking time to prioritize your well-being is essential. In this episode, you'll hear us discuss the importance of setting boundaries and making intentional choices about how you spend your time. We share our personal experiences and strategies, from booking vacations and massages to creating those precious moments of spontaneity that can truly rejuvenate your spirit. We even touch on our VIP day offerings, where you can take a deep dive into your goals and aspirations with us as your guides. So, if you've been feeling the weight of life's demands, this episode is your reminder to take a step back, breathe, and invest in yourself. So, grab your planner (or just your favorite cozy blanket) and get ready to discover how to make time for YOU!

People are always asking us, “Will my CliftonStrengths change?” and “Should I retake the assessment?”   Since these questions are really two sides of the same coin, the short answer to both is the same: probably not. For the longer answer, be sure to listen in as we explore if/when to retake, and how to get the most from your CliftonStrengths results.

Join us for this enlightening episode of VRTAC-QM Manager Minute, where we explore the transformative power of Value-Based Purchasing (VBP), also known as Performance-Based Payment (PBP). In the studio, we have Chip Kenney, Co-Project Director of the VRTAC-QM, and Lisa Mills, a consultant and subject matter expert in VBP, sharing their expertise. VBP is more than just a financial model—it's a strategic shift designed to drive better outcomes for individuals with disabilities. By aligning provider incentives with measurable performance outcomes, State Vocational Rehabilitation Agencies (SVRAs) can enhance the quality of services, improve consumer results, and optimize costs. Tune in to hear Chip and Lisa discuss how SVRAs can harness the power of this approach to revolutionize service delivery and create a meaningful impact. Whether you're considering adopting VBP or seeking to refine your approach, this episode is packed with insights you won't want to miss! Value-Based Payment Methodologies to Advance Competitive Integrated Employment: A Mix of Inspiring Examples from Across the Country   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   Chip: Virginia reached out and they wanted to include value based purchasing specifically in their Disability Innovation grant. I said, this is an opportunity we can't pass.   Lisa: Is there anything about our payment structure that incentivizes or rewards this kind of quality that we're saying we're not getting, thus reduce the amount we're investing in unsuccessful closures.   Chip: When we can get to that point where we can identify and measure and demonstrate and get quality outcomes that will move this whole system a gigantic step forward.   Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today are Chip Kenney, Co-Project Director of the VRTAC for Quality Management, and Lisa Mills, Consultant and Subject Matter Expert to the QM on Value-Based Purchasing. So here's a little context for our listeners. Value-Based Purchasing, also known as Performance-Based Payment, is a model that offers financial incentives to providers for meeting certain performance measures. And as state rehab agencies look to improve outcomes for individuals with disabilities, the quality of purchased VR services, and overall cost effectiveness. A Performance-Based approach might be an option, so I don't want to steal their thunder, and I'm going to let my guests discuss what they're doing today. So let's dig in. Lisa, lets' start with you. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how did you find your way kind of into this VR space?   Lisa: Sure. So I've been in the world of disabilities for my career, for the entire career. So, 33 years, I think where now I've lost count. But about 20 years ago, I got really interested in employment working with Self-advocates way back before there was such widespread support for ending Subminimum wage. You know, the support that we do see now, but that was at a time when that it wasn't even being discussed. But Self-advocates were very clear that they wanted to earn more money and have more opportunities. So I got interested in supported employment and why we weren't using it very much. And so I started working with Medicaid and long term support agencies on improving employment services and outcomes. Back then, there was something called the Medicaid Infrastructure Grants, which allowed states to create Medicaid buy ins for working individuals with disabilities. So I really dug in around what were we doing around employment services. And of course, that brought us to the relationship with VR. And about 16 years ago, I started working on customized employment and developing ways to pay for customized employment, and worked with a couple VR agencies at the time on payment structures for customize. And then most recently, I'm a mom of a transition age son who used VR supported employment services to get his first and second jobs, and he's been employed in competitive, integrated employment since 2020. He's about to turn 21 and that has changed his life. So I'm a firm believer.   Carol: Good for him. That's really cool to know. I always love it finding out the stories people have, because you never know, we all get here a different way. But I love your path. So Chipper over to you. And I'm going to say Chipper because I'm naughty. He Chip is my colleague. So for our listeners I do like to rib Chip a bit. So Chip, how did you find your way into the VR space?   Chip: So very similar to Lisa. My whole career has been in public rehabilitation for a bit then technical assistance centers, but fast forwarding to about 2009 was interested in customized employment and its applications, and the need for VR systems to have an employment system that really addressed what people with the most significant disabilities needed to be successful, and I was sort of glommed on to that space ever since. And then with the passage of WIOA, it just seemed a really necessary connection that VR agencies and systems have something new they can offer. People who would have considered going into sheltered employment now are coming out. What are you going to offer them that's new and different from when they went in and have been at it ever since, mainly focused on the implementation side of it, because there's a bunch of trainers in that space and they're all really good. But we learned early on that it takes an infrastructure to embed, implement and sustain customized employment over a period of time. And so that's been my focus the last several years. I mean, we're still learning a lot. And rate structure is part of that, which, I mean, I've known Lisa for years too, but rate structure is something every agency struggles with. And when the opportunity came to work with Lisa on this and move this forward, I thought, this is a big missing piece that we have to fill.   Carol: Absolutely, I'm underscoring that 100% because we know we get a lot of rate work with our QM work and the whole idea and customized employment with that sustainability. You can have the great idea. And we're going to do the thing and we're all excited. But then what happens. Year one and two and three and four as it goes on and it all fades away. And we don't want that to fade away. We need to have that good sustainability plan. So Chip, how did you get involved in bringing Lisa on board? What was kind of the impetus of that?   Chip: Virginia reached out. The state of Virginia reached out to us and they wanted to include value based purchasing. And they mentioned that specifically in their Disability Innovation grant, and somebody referred them to me. I mean, I knew a bit about it, but then as soon as I saw the Lisa connection and started reading her work on it, I said, this is an opportunity we can't pass, even though I don't have any experience. But Lisa brings all that and the knowledge and the background and said, it's really important to be a part of this.   Carol: Very cool. So, Lisa, I understand you have a very unique superpower. You can speak and interpret languages across multiple partner systems. How did you develop that?   Lisa: Well, I guess I'm a bit of a policy wonk. I did a lot of interviewing of people from different systems to try to understand what was going on with partnerships, what were the challenges. And this was probably 12, 13 years ago. I was doing some work with ODEP at the time, blending and braiding. And when I was doing a lot of my interviews interviewing the different partners, including VR, I figured out that a lot of what was going on at that time was sequencing. It was really not blending or braiding, and if we wanted to get to braiding and ultimately to blending, I felt like we really had to find what was going on then as something foundational, you know? And that's where I kind of coined the term sequencing and said, this is really what we're doing, but we can help people understand then what it means to switch from sequencing to braiding, what it means to switch from braiding to blending, and really start to get people interested in the advantages of moving away from sequencing. So it really was just wanting to dig into each system enough to figure out what solutions might improve collaboration and outcomes. Sometimes it can be easy to lay out all the issues, right? Everything that's not working, but to really dig into each system and figure out where could we align ourselves, where are we aligned, and we just don't realize it? That was more, I guess, the policy wonk side of me.   Carol: I love that because I think I've been on lots of work groups over the years, I mean, I just have when we've worked between, you know, departments of education and your state Department of like maybe developmental disabilities or whatever you are calling it back in the day. And then in the VR system when we all had different ways of describing everything and we could get stuck in the what's the problem? Here's all the problems. We got problems. We have a million problems. Here's all the hundred problems we have to get through before we can get to a solution. But if you go in and go, I love that. Like, how are we aligned right now and what are the things that we could build off of right now instead of always focusing on that whole myriad of things? But I think understanding each other, how we speak about things and we may say the same word, but it means something different to each of us. Once we can kind of clear up that dictionary and talk the same language, it makes it much easier to comprehend what's going on in each other's systems and how that can then work together. I love that you have that. So what is the essence of Value-Based Purchasing?   Lisa: So to me it's quality service combined with efficient service that results in quality outcomes. So I think about that. Efficiency without quality that would not lead to quality outcomes. We'd hurry up and do things, but we wouldn't really see the quality outcomes we wanted to see. And at the same time, if you have a quality service that goes on and on and on, you lose the cost effectiveness and you typically you lose the job seeker. They're going to give up or go find a job some other way. So to me, we have to recognize we need both quality and efficiency in the way services are delivered and that we have a set of quality outcomes we want to achieve. And we have to ask ourselves, to what extent are we getting those quality outcomes? And to me, if we can figure out a payment structure that balances rewarding quality and efficiency and is really clear about what is quality and service delivery, what is efficiency and service delivery, and then what are we looking for? As quality indicators and outcomes? We can design a payment structure that really will deliver on that. And I think as you start to think about that, you realize how the existing payment structures really aren't set up to do those things for various reasons. And that really, I think, helps people buy into the idea that there might be a better way to do this. And this idea of value based purchasing might actually have some legs.   Carol: So that payment structure piece, that's my interest. How did you really dig in and kind of figure it out? Because it sounds good and I understand all the things you're saying about quality outcomes, but how when it comes down, like putting the rubber to the road, do you get at the nuts and bolts of figuring out the payment structure?   Lisa: So everybody always wants that. Next they say, so tell me what it is. And I always say it is what you need to develop locally in your system. You need buy in from those who are purchasing and those who are providing, and you've got to bring them to the table in a constructive way. So in a really collaborative way, sometimes we talk about it as co-creation and you dig into what do we agree is quality service, how do we differentiate quality service from service that we would say is not high quality. And then what do we agree is efficient service? How do we differentiate efficient service from service we would say is inefficient but very important to VR agencies, at least those I've spoken to. Are these quality outcomes, the career path outcomes, the jobs with benefits, the jobs with more hours and better pay? You know, some of these things, you're just not necessarily seeing a lot. You're getting outcomes that you can count as a 26 closure, but they aren't the kind of quality outcomes that, and you see some revolving door effect of certain people who and I know that's a big issue in some states or you see a lot of dropouts in the process. So in every state it's important to sit together and figure out what should we be doing better, what does better quality look like, and then what is quality and efficient service look like? That's how you get the buy in to establish a payment structure that where people want to implement it and intend for it to work. I can certainly share examples of how that co-creation works going on elsewhere and what the ultimate outcome was, but that is what happened there. And I really like the idea that and really believe that you've got to do a local co-creation process to get to something everybody's bought into and something that has a high probability of working. I would never say, oh, Value-Based Purchasing is this. It's only this. Or you just take this model from this other state and you plunk it down here. That won't work.   Carol: Yeah, I can see why you sing to Chip's heart there. Because he's all about systems work, you know, and that whole and everybody's systems in your state are so different. How you're set up, what your relationships are like between your providers and yourself and other entities and all of that. So I do like that you're speaking to that and you can't just pick up and replicate because you've got all your nuances that are happening in your state, and you need to understand those before you can get to the agreeable solution. That makes a lot of sense.   Chip: And it's not only that, and we're finding this to be true now that providers are not a monolith, that there's not a state where you can go, okay, every provider looks like every other provider. There are a lot of uniquenesses, a lot of variables that have to be taken into account to bring at least the majority of them on board. And that's we're finding that to be true as every state system is different, every provider network or non-network is different.   Carol: Absolutely. And even when you think about the states, kind of just the like the geographic challenges they have and the things that are going on, we've saw such an increase, especially after Covid with people moving and some of the states go like our cost of living in certain areas has gone up exponentially, like 300% or something. And so you've got everybody like, decided because they could work from anywhere. We're all moving to this town and then other areas become depleted, maybe from people, and there's less resources available and harder to get providers to serve an area even though you have customers there. I just feel like we have a lot of geographic and economic challenges across states, even tiny states. It's been super interesting. We've found that work as we've been just doing plain old rate setting with states, so let alone what you guys are digging into. So what are some of the biggest challenges in implementing this value based purchasing?   Lisa: I would say the time it takes to do it right. I think sometimes state agencies and I'm not singling out VR, but they want quick solutions. You know, they think about it for a long time and then they say, okay, we want to do it. Let's get it done. Can we get this done in three months or can we, you know, and you have to say probably not in a way that would be successful. And so it is something not to take lightly and to really commit to invest in. I think there's a lot of additional benefits to doing this, including provider relationships and the learning that goes on. Providers now understand what it's like to step in the shoes of a funder. Funders understand what it's like to step in the shoes of a provider. I always think that helps with everybody getting on the same page and agreeing to a model they think will work, but it takes patience, it takes partnership. Some states are, they're very uncomfortable with bringing providers in. They tend to develop things and then release them to providers. So you've got to have a level of trust when you identify the providers you want to involve. I always encourage to identify who are your high performers. They are the providers you want this model to work for because you want more high performers and you want those that you have to expand their footprint, for example, to go into geographic areas that are underserved or to hire more staff. So always thinking about partnering with the high performing providers. But there's a bit of reluctance, you know, and risk in doing that and saying we're going to create something together. Lots of outside the box thinking. It's really hard to get away from payment models that you've been invested in for a long time. Milestone fee for service. Just to think beyond those can be very difficult, but I think once people start to and that's something I do, is kind of bring ideas and thoughts and stimulate thinking to get them to move away from those models and really say, what should we be paying for? What is important to value in the payment structure? I think it really gets to be very exciting, or at least I think so. You really need data to you cannot develop a model without good data. Sometimes the data is readily available. It's reports that VR agencies are already pulling out of their system. Other times the data's in the system, but they don't typically pull it. And so we have to work with them. And it helps to have a data analyst to assist with this process, to be able to pull pieces of data or data analysis and different ways that informs what we're doing. We want a data driven approach. And sometimes, of course, you probably know that data analysts are very, very busy or they're off doing something else. And it may be hard to get them committed to the work.   Carol: Have you seen improvements since? I'm just thinking since WIOA and kind of the requirements that RSA has put on state agencies about collecting a vast amount more of data. Have you seen improvement as you're working with states that they actually have data they may not have had years ago that you can get at. I mean, there might be a little bit of a problem with the staffing or getting your data analysts to pull it, but that availability of the data you need to really to dig into this, that it's actually there.   Lisa: Yeah, I do think the systems are pretty sophisticated, and it's a matter of helping them understand how to use more of the data they have, because we have the standard WIOA measures. We have the way that VR talked about its performance prior to WIOA but I think we're digging in to get it more data elements that help us understand. One of the most important things to understand is demographic information and how that affects maybe how difficult or how easy it is to serve someone. So, for example, adding criminal background to someone's demographic profile, or we know from history that, you know, that does create a challenge. So it's weeding out what are the things that differentiate people who VR would serve and try and understand better how that relates to cost. The other thing that's really important that I don't typically see is what's the average cost of a successful case? So I see this is the average cost of successful closures. So taking all successful closures and dividing it by the number and then average cost of unsuccessful closures, then average cost of a case. But for me what matters most is what are we paying for a successful case if we're including everything we're paying. So including all the that we're spending on unsuccessful closures in that and saying, basically this is what it costs to get a successful case, because we also have to pay for the unsuccessful closures and trying to focus on how do we reduce, how much we're paying for unsuccessful closures, and to really make sure more of the money that we're paying flows to successful closures. There's a little bit of complacency that goes on with every system where if we just compare ourselves to other states, we may say, look, we're doing better. We should be happy with our performance. We are better than 75% of the states. But if we stand back and compare that to people without disabilities and their participation in the workforce, I think that's when we say we're comparing it to school. Like if you got 60% on a test, would you pass it or would you fail it? So I think we have to challenge ourselves to say we may be doing better than so many other states, but we are not performing at a high level and we want to move up. We want to not just judge ourselves by other states. Now, 100% success is unrealistic. I don't think there's anybody who would disagree with that, but it's important for the providers and the funder to come together and say what kind of improvement above where we've been. Do we want to try to incentivize? Do we want to see and to develop the payment structure, to say we believe this structure will directly influence our ability to move those percentages up over time and thus reduce the amount we're investing in unsuccessful closures without reducing the number of people were serving, without cherry picking, but truly improving outcomes.   Carol: I love that that is a good way to challenge the thinking that's going on out there, because people sort of, I don't know, poo poo or they just this is over there in that bucket and they let it be. And we're kind of complacent with just, you know, we're doing better but is better. What's the next state like. You know, like better than what. And so what does that matter.   Chip: But I think I mean, the key to me is the concepts of quality, the quality of services and quality outcomes. And if you can define and you can measure and you can demonstrate quality of services and quality outcomes, it seems like you don't need to compare yourself with other states. You can say this is quality in our state. This is what we're doing. This is how we're doing it. These are the outcomes. So state by state national comparisons are way less important. So when we can get to that point where we can identify and measure and demonstrate and get quality outcomes that will move this whole system gigantic step forward.   Carol: 100% Chip. So what would be your best advice for states as they're listening. Right. You know, they're listening in and they're thinking, well, I want to do something, but I don't know what to do. Like what would be the next steps? What should they do?   Lisa: To me, it's, start the conversation. I find that the process of bringing state people together with providers, that they're all learning together about this different way of thinking, And it helps because it does take a little bit to get your mind around what Value-Based Purchasing is and how it's different from milestone payments or fee for service. And I've often seen like people have come up to me sometimes and said, you know, it was the third time I heard you talk that the bells finally went on, you know? And I said, that's fine. I think it's just the way it is. It's complicated in a way, because it's so different. So getting the conversation started and thinking about, you know, asking yourself questions like, is there quality in the outcomes that we want as an agency that we're not getting quality and service delivery? We don't feel we're getting quality and outcomes we're not getting. Then think about your payment structure and say, is there anything about our payment structure that incentivizes or rewards this kind of quality that we're saying we're not getting? Sometimes maybe there's something there. Sometimes you could say, no, there's absolutely nothing in the payment structure that does that. And then I always say, think about the providers that you think are doing the best work for you. Are they financially benefiting? Are they doing better financially. And in some cases I've seen no, there's no difference. I'm performing better, but financially that's not being recognized. And in other cases I've seen they're actually earning less because they're doing such a good job and they're very efficient. You know, they're producing quality with efficiency. They're actually doing more poorly financially than some of the providers who are performing at a lower level of quality. So I think when we start to think about those questions, people see that the need to try to figure out a different way to do things, then they're willing to, you know, let's talk about what this Value-Based Purchasing is what the principles are, how it's different, and begin to think about how we might bring our high performing providers into a conversation with us about this.   Chip: My advice for states is that you're in this for the long haul. To Lisa's point very early in this discussion that this isn't a quick solution. That's something that can just be laid in the state and just immediately adapted. It does take that level of discussion, that level of understanding, collecting data. It's complex. And sometimes I think to myself, why am I choosing to get involved in the complexity of Value-Based Purchasing overlaid the complexity sometimes of customized employment, but I think in the end result we will have a much better system, much more equitable service delivery system for everyone, including providers, including customers and job seekers. But just keeping the discussion going on things like this, things that CSAVR presentations Getting this into the national discussion, I think, is the first step.   Carol: Those are really good tips. Where outside of VR is Value-Based Purchasing being implemented?   Lisa: So definitely in the Medicaid world, most of your listeners are probably aware of that, but mostly in the Medicaid world, it's on the acute primary care side. So hospitals and doctors, primary care physicians and things. So I always caution people there's things we can learn from that and those examples. But it's not a wholesale import those approaches over to VR. I don't think that would work. But there are some principles or strategies that we can use, like there's a concept called shared savings. There's some other things that I think we can think about and use, but we still have to develop something that's specific to employment. In my work on this around employment on the Medicaid side has been with the long term services and support agencies, the DD agencies, the mental health agencies, managed care organizations who are doing LTSS and employment is a perfect place to start with them around their thinking, around Value-Based Purchasing. They're facing some pressure. I would say some to use Value-Based Purchasing because it's seen to be working on the acute primary side of Medicaid. So they're saying, why aren't we using it in LTSS? And they want better quality and better efficiency too. They want to see people supported to achieve their highest level of independence. They want their high performing providers to do well. So we worked on it with employment because it's so obvious that fee for service, which is the typical payment model, disincentivizes all the things that we associate with high quality supported employment, the better you are at getting people jobs, the better you are at coaching and fading because you're good at it. We reward providers under fee for service with less money. And those providers are performing more poorly, end up with more money. So it's not hard to get people to see why fee for service doesn't work for supported employment. So we've worked on models for job coaching that pay for hours worked rather than hours of coaching, so that providers are appropriately financially compensated if they do better at fading, which goes back to what kind of job did they get people, as well as how good they are at coaching. That model incentivizes them to get people more hours. So if you start with 12 hours a week, that doesn't mean you stay with it. If they're doing well, the employer wants to increase that. The person wants that they can get paid more in the model. Fee for service providers don't get any financial remuneration for increasing people's hours worked, even though we say that's a goal. So that's been a lot of where we see some of the value based models developing. We're paying for things up front services like exploration, which I'm really happy to see the results of states that have added exploration and exploration to their waivers, because we now have a way to tackle people who say no thanks in a planning meeting or I'm not interested, or their families say that we've been paying for developing payment models for that. That's an outcome payment. So they complete the service, then they get paid based on the quality of the information they submit and the efficiency. So there are ways to align what we're doing. Providers certainly appreciate that they would like to be paid the same way. Typically once they experience being paid in a Value-Based structure. So that's where it's happening. But think about just the general business world. There are so many examples of payment based on performance or quality, right. Sales Salespeople earn incentives for sales. So business has long been doing this in terms of creating those kinds of incentives and even nonprofits. Now, United Way and others are funding nonprofits based on outcomes and deliverables. They're no longer funding them to just provide service. So I think if you look, we're seeing it everywhere, really.   Carol: So you brought up a whole lot of points. If people are interested in more information, do you have resources we could send them to?   Lisa: Well, in 2021, I did a publication that looked at examples from around the country that I'd been in some way involved in. That's on the Lead Center website as well as there are a series of webinars we did at the time with representatives from various states. I have a lot of information about what's going on in the Medicaid side. Et etcetera. So I guess I would say that was my thinking in 2021, I continue to learn and evolve my thinking, and I think we're at a point now where we're trying to do in Virginia, is move beyond both fee for service and milestones, because neither are working very well, right? So you've got some state VR agency saying we're paying fee for service. It's not working. Should we move to milestone? But if you talk to states who are using milestone, they will also say it's not working very well. Some of them are thinking about going back to fee for service. And I'm thinking, I don't think we should do either. I think we should work together to figure out what's the next way we attempt this that addresses the shortcomings of both. And I think that pathway is Value-Based Purchasing.   Chip: and helping moving states to. Well, I'm a little concerned about the unknown. What we have may not be working now, but it's the known. I don't really know what's ahead, but I think where in Virginia at least, has done a really good job of creating that safe space. Like, let's explore this together and keep this comfort zone of what we currently have, but move forward into something that's more equitable and beneficial for them.   Carol: So, Chip, if people wanted to reach out, what would be the best thing? Should they contact you or what would be best?   Chip: Either one of us is if it's a state agency, probably me if it's others listening to this. Lisa.   Carol: Do you want to give them your email address?   Chip: It's r k e n n e y at SDSU (San Diego State University) dot EDU.   Carol: Awesome. And, Lisa, do you mind sharing your email address?   Lisa: No, but I'll warn you, it's long. So here we go, Lisa Mills l L i s a M i l l s, all one word, at M as in Michael, T as in Tom, D as in David, D as in David, dot On Microsoft, all one word, com. And that was my IT friends who gave me that ridiculously long email, which I hate.   Carol: Holy smokes, that is long. Well thank you both. I really appreciate it. And I will put a link in our podcast announcement out to your publication from 2021 as well. Then folks could at least see that. But thanks for your time. I really appreciate the conversation.   Lisa: Thank you.   Chip: Thanks. We really appreciate this opportunity.   Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Using Strengths to Believe in Yourself From time to time, everyone struggles to believe in themselves. Especially when faced with challenges and changes in their lives. Too often, this doubt can lead to feelings of inadequacy, and hold us back from the growth we desire. That's why we look to our talents: to identify and question limiting beliefs, so we can shift our mindset to take actionable steps toward our goals, no matter how unattainable they may seem. As always, this episode is packed with insights and practical tips to help you believe in yourself and take those next steps on your journey of development and growth.

It's Wednesday, October 30th, A.D. 2024. This is The Worldview in 5 Minutes heard on 125 radio stations and at www.TheWorldview.com.  I'm Adam McManus. (Adam@TheWorldview.com) By Jonathan Clark and Adam McManus Nigerian Muslims beheaded 4 people including a Christian Open Doors UK reports that Muslim extremists beheaded four abducted individuals recently in northeast Nigeria. At least one of them was a Christian. The terrorists released a graphic video of the murders and are believed to be from Boko Haram. In the video, an armed terrorist said, “Wherever there is an infidel, we will go and find them out by ourselves and execute them.” John Samuel with Open Doors said, “Boko Haram extremists have clearly said time and time again that they are waging a jihad against people they call ‘infidels' – that is anyone who does not sign up to their extreme interpretation of Islam. Some of the people at the top of this list, then, are Christians who are clear targets because of their faith.” 60,000 Brits sign freedom of prayer petition Alliance Defending Freedom released a petition for freedom of prayer in the United Kingdom. this month. Already, nearly 60,000 people have signed it. Authorities in the U.K. recently convicted a Christian of violating censorship zones around abortion mills. Army veteran Adam Smith-Connor had simply prayed silently near an abortion mill! Alliance Defending Freedom sent the petition to U.K. Prime Minister Keir Starmer. It states, “Freedom of thought is our most basic and precious of rights -- and has long been recognized in British law and every major human rights document from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights onwards.” Proverbs 29:2 says, “When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; but when a wicked man rules, the people groan.” Kamala calls Trump a “petty tyrant,” likening him to King George III Last night, Vice President Kamala Harris made her campaign's closing argument in a speech at the Ellipse in the nation's capital, reports The Epoch Times. Her campaign claimed that 75,000 people were in attendance. The rally was located at a symbolic site for two reasons. First, it had a direct view of the White House. And secondly, it's the place where Trump delivered his speech on January 6, 2021, that preceded the Capitol breach. HARRIS: “Nearly 250 years ago, America was born when we wrested freedom from a petty tyrant. Across the generations, Americans have preserved that freedom, expanded it, and, in so doing, proved to the world that a government of, by, and for the people is strong and can endure. (cheers) “Those who came before us, the patriots at Normandy and Selma, Seneca Falls and Stonewall (cheers), on farmlands and factory floors, they did not struggle, sacrifice, and lay down their lives only to see us cede our fundamental freedoms. (cheers) “They didn't do that only to see us submit to the will of another petty tyrant.  (cheers) These United States of America, we are not a vessel for the schemes of wannabe dictators.” GOP Congressman: People are done with Kamala's fear mongering Appearing on The Angle with Laura Ingraham on Fox News, Republican Congressman Byron Donalds of Florida rejected the nasty tone, fear mongering, and unsupported accusations in the waning days that Kamala Harris has adopted. Listen. DONALDS: “They were joy and vibes three weeks ago. Now, everything is  ‘attack Donald Trump,'  ‘call him Hitler,'  ‘call his supporters fascists.' “We were at Madison Square Garden. Laura, it was great to see you there. It was a fantastic night. “You had people like myself, Vivek Ramaswamy, ‘Harry-O,' the founder of Death Row Records. We spoke at that rally. Do you think the Nazis would let two black guys and a guy of Hindu dissent speak at a rally? At one of theirs? Absolutely not! But that's all they have. “The constant fear mongering and gaslighting is enough. People are sick of it. They're done. They're done with Kamala Harris and they're done with this version of the Democrat Party.” Washington Post, L.A. Times, & USA Today don't endorse for president Breaking with recent practice, major news outlets are not endorsing a candidate in the upcoming presidential election. The Washington Post announced last Friday it is not making a presidential endorsement for the first time in 36 years.  The Los Angeles Times and USA Today also announced they will not be endorsing a candidate for president. In the wake of the decisions, top editors resigned and 200,000 left-leaning subscribers to the Washington Post cancelled their subscriptions.  Many conservatives have concluded that Jeff Bezos and Patrick Soon-Shiong, the billionaire owners of the Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times respectively, have concluded that Trump is likely to win the 2024 election and do not want to irritate him by endorsing Kamala Harris. How God spared a couple in Hurricane Helene Queen City News reports a North Carolina couple is giving thanks to God after surviving Hurricane Helene. Howard Ray and his wife, Lisa, thought they were about to die as flooding swamped their trailer in Yancey County. However, they were able to escape the trailer and use their couch as a flotation device. Eventually, they made their way to safety. HOWARD: “I don't understand. We shouldn't be alive. I mean, there's just no way. It's all God.” LISA: “Yeah, we shouldn't be alive, but God has a purpose.” REPORTER: “What do you think that purpose is?” LISA: “I'm not sure. I'm still asking questions.” HOWARD: “I think maybe what we're doing right now, maybe it gets out and shows people that there is a God.” Lisa had to be hospitalized for some cuts, and Howard, a lieutenant with the local volunteer fire department, returned to the area to help first responders. They both praised God for His protection.  Worldview listeners fully fund Pakistani orphanage well And finally, if you heard the newscast on Monday, you learned that a 200-foot-deep well of a Pakistani Christian orphanage, which housed 87 orphans, had become polluted with chemicals which tragically led to the deaths of two orphans. Toward the $15,000 cost of building a 500-foot-deep well which will deliver safe drinking water, Pastor Michael, the founder of the orphanage whom I have met personally, still needed to raise the final $4,185.  Thanks to several Worldview donors on Monday, the amount remaining was $3,110. And yesterday, Michele in Altha, Florida gave $100, a couple from San Antonio, Texas gave $150, a family in Lexington Park, Maryland gave $150,  a couple in Paw Paw, Michigan gave $500, a couple in Kailua Kona, Hawaii gave $500, a couple in Simpsonville, South Carolina gave $1,000, and Dick and Deborah in Wayland, Michigan -- along with their teenage sons Jonas and Jeremiah who contributed money from their dog-sitting business – gave $1,054.75. Those 7 donations add up to $3,454.75. That means we surpassed the goal by $344.75.  The additional money will go toward the $2,000 monthly budget which pays for the food, clothing, medical care, and Christian education of the 85 orphans. If you would like to help with that budget, send your tax-deductible donation made out to Rio Grande Valley Prayer Center, their sister organization here in America. The address is 3106 Harmony Lane, Mission, TX 78574.  In the memo, write: “Pakistani orphanage.” The prayer center will then wire your money to a nearby bank in Pakistan.  Please email me at Adam@TheWorldview.com to let me know how much you sent so I can offer one final report on Thursday's newscast. James 1:27 says, “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.” Close And that's The Worldview on this Wednesday, October 30th, in the year of our Lord 2024. Subscribe by Amazon Music or by iTunes or email to our unique Christian newscast at www.TheWorldview.com. Or get the Generations app through Google Play or The App Store. I'm Adam McManus (Adam@TheWorldview.com). Seize the day for Jesus Christ.

We all know how good it is to feel valued at work… but, as a manager, is it worth the time and expense? And how can we ensure that our recognition resonates? In today's episode, we dive into the powerful world of appreciation and recognition! We chat about how everyone loves to be recognized, but not everyone enjoys the spotlight in the same way. You'll hear us share our personal experiences with recognition. We emphasize the importance of understanding individual preferences when it comes to appreciation, because what resonates with one person might not connect with another. We also discuss some practical tips for recognizing your team or peers without breaking the bank. You'll learn that simple, genuine compliments can go a long way, and how being specific about what you appreciate can amplify someone's performance. Plus, we touch on the idea of the "platinum rule"—treating others the way they want to be treated. So, whether you're a manager or just someone looking to spread a little positivity, this episode is packed with insights and actionable ideas to help you create a culture of recognition in your workplace and beyond!  

In today's episode, we dive deep into the concept of flow, that magical state where time disappears and creativity flows effortlessly. We share our personal experiences with flow—what it looks like for us, and the unique ways we prepare for those moments. You'll hear us discuss the importance of creating space in your life, whether that means blocking off time in your schedule or setting the right environment with candles and epic soundtracks. We also explore the difference between being in flow and simply being focused, and how understanding your own strengths can help you find your flow more often. So, if you've ever wondered how to get into that sweet spot of productivity and creativity, this episode is packed with insights and practical tips to help you discover your own flow state. Get ready to embrace the freedom to flow!  

Whether on a trip to Vegas, family reunion, or navigating the mountain's edge, our strengths are there every step of the way. The question is, are they guiding, protecting, and supporting you? Or are they getting in the way, causing conflict and confusion?   In today's episode, we dive into the fascinating world of applying our strengths beyond the workplace. You'll hear us share some hilarious and relatable stories about how recognizing and celebrating each other's strengths can help you move from frustration to fascination, transforming everyday interactions into opportunities for connection and appreciation.   If you're dealing with a frustrating situation using strengths at home, or just want to bring a little more joy into your relationships, this episode is packed with insights and tips to help you embrace your strengths in every aspect of life!

"Where did the time go?" "If only I had more time!" If you're looking for productivity hacks or time management tips – this episode is for you. We've all been there. We believe time is our most valuable resource. Unfortunately, this often leads to overwhelm and guilt when our expectations don't match reality. We don't accomplish as much as we thought we would, our "to do" list keeps growing, and discouragement creeps in. What if there was more to time management than meets the eye? Is time truly our most valuable resource? Listen in as we rethink time management.

About This Episode on The Question “How Did You Do That?” Have you ever had someone say, “Wow! How did you do that?” or “You make that look so easy!” and think, ‘What? Like it's hard?' (I see you, Elle Woods!) Or maybe you've recognized how others seem to be able to pick up or breeze through certain tasks with an effortlessness or ease you only dream of. It's all a clue to talent! In this episode, we talk about one of the “5 Clues to Talent”: Rapid Learning. We share personal anecdotes and examples of how recognizing what comes easy to you can lead to a deeper understanding of your strengths. Whether it's performing on stage, hyping people up, or crushing spreadsheets and TPS reports, acknowledging these innate abilities can lead to a deeper understanding of your strengths – and make hard work feel a little more easy-breezy. So, grab your metaphorical "easy button" and join us for this episode on the 2nd “Clue to Talent”: Rapid Learning. We'll answer, “How did you do that so easily” with a lens of strengths.   Work With Us! BREA Roper Communication | Woo | Activator | Futuristic | Connectedness If you need a Strengths Hype Girl, for yourself or your team, connect with Brea at brearoper.com. She's ready to deliver an inspirational keynote, empowering training, or transformational workshop. If you're looking for an expert guide to support your internal Strengths efforts, reach out today! LISA Cummings Strategic | Maximizer | Positivity | Individualization | Woo   To work with Lisa, check out team workshops and retreats at the Lead Through Strengths site. For 1:1 strengths or life coaching, check out the Get Coached link. For independent coaches, trainers, and speakers, get business tools support with our Tools for Coaches membership.   Takeaways on Rapid Learning (AKA How Did You Do That?) Your Talents Are Easy Buttons: One of the key clues to talent is ease - those things that come effortlessly to us but may seem challenging to others. Recognizing and embracing what comes easily to you is fundamental for your success. Leaning into your talents can help you work smarter, not harder. Apply Talent to Challenges: When you're faced with a challenge, ask yourself, “How can I make this easy?” By leveraging your easy buttons, you can excel in your endeavors - even the most challenging ones. Easy Buttons are Not Excuses to be Lazy: Continuous learning and skill development that aligns with your talents i. By taking action to learn skills that complement your strengths, you can make the path to success feel more effortless and enjoyable. Remember, hard work doesn't have to be hard. Align it with your strengths and it actually feels easy.

About This Episode on Getting What You Really Want Out of Life What do the Spice Girls, double rainbows, and pursuing our dreams all have in common? Yearning. If you're someone who is looking to tap into your inner desires and explore what you really want out of life, this episode is for you. Inspired by Gallup's “Five Clues to Talent”, Lisa & Brea explore how our dreams and desires can clue us in to our hidden talents.   We discuss how yearnings can: ●      arise in personal and professional settings ●      impact daily tasks and long-term goals ●      be a powerful motivator   We also discuss: ●      how different talent themes yearn for different things, and in different ways ●      what might keep us from discovering, embracing, and pursuing our desires   We also share practical tips and exercises to help you uncover your yearnings and start working towards making them a reality.   Work With Us! BREA Roper Communication | Woo | Activator | Futuristic | Connectedness If you need a Strengths Hype Girl, for yourself or your team, connect with Brea at brearoper.com. She's ready to deliver an inspirational keynote, empowering training, or transformational workshop. If you're looking for an expert guide to support your internal Strengths efforts, reach out today! LISA Cummings Strategic | Maximizer | Positivity | Individualization | Woo   To work with Lisa, check out team workshops and retreats at the Lead Through Strengths site. For 1:1 strengths or life coaching, check out the Get Coached link. For independent coaches, trainers, and speakers, get business tools support with our Tools for Coaches membership.     Takeaways The Human Desire For Something More Yearning, longing, and dreaming are innate to the human experience. It's good to identify what our hearts truly long for and what we aspire to achieve. Whether it's a long-term dream or a simple desire for a change in our daily routine, yearning allows us to strive for something greater and live with purpose.   Our Talents Can Support Our Dreams Our natural talents can play a significant role in fulfilling our yearnings. By identifying our talents and understanding how they can inspire and support our dreams and aspirations, we can leverage our strengths to achieve our goals and live a more fulfilling life.   Living in the Moment Yearning doesn't only involve looking toward the future. For individuals who naturally focus on the here and now, being present and embracing what brings us joy and fulfillment in the here and now can be a powerful way to live out our yearnings on a daily basis. Remember, it's never too late to start dreaming and working towards your aspirations. Let's embrace our yearnings and strive for a life filled with purpose and fulfillment.

About This Episode Are you getting ready to take the CliftonStrengths assessment? This episode is for you! Between the two of us (Lisa & Brea), we've facilitated tens of thousands of these bad boys. So, we share the ins and outs of ‘what to know before you go' - CliftonStrengths edition.   In this episode, we answer questions like: “How long will it take?” “Is this a test?” “Will it put me in a box?” “Top 5, Full 34, Managers, and Leaders…oh my! How do I know which one is right for me?” …and plenty more!   As always, you're in for lots of laughs, personal anecdotes, and practical tips. So, what are you waiting for? Let's dive in!     Work With Us!   If you're thinking about introducing your team, department, or organization to the CliftonStrengths assessment, BREA is ready to help you every step of the way. Don't get tripped up in the details. From purchasing codes and distributing codes, to facilitating the assessment, collating reports, and leading a workshop to help you understand what it all means…she'll take care of it all! Visit brearoper.com to schedule a call today!   To work with LISA, check out team workshops and retreats at the Lead Through Strengths site. For 1:1 strengths or life coaching, check out the Get Coached link. For independent coaches, trainers, and speakers, get business tools support with our Tools for Coaches membership.     Takeaways Embrace your uniqueness. The CliftonStrengths assessment is not a test with right or wrong answers. It's an opportunity to discover what makes you unique and special. By entering the assessment with an open mind and embracing your natural preferences, you can uncover your innate talents and strengths that can help you thrive in both your personal and professional life. Go with your gut. Rather than overthinking or trying to fit into a specific mold, trust your natural reactions and preferences. By tapping into your instinctual responses, you will uncover your greatest areas of potential - your natural talents! Leverage your results for success. After taking the assessment, many individuals are pleasantly surprised by how accurately it reflects their strengths and talents. The CliftonStrengths assessment can provide valuable insights into how you work best and what comes naturally to you. By leveraging these results, you can align your strengths with your goals, whether in the workplace or at home, and unlock your full potential for success.   Take Action ●      Download the checklist for “How To Take the CliftonStrengths Assessment” at brearoper.com. ●      Do it! Take the assessment! Click here to buy a code.   Let's Connect! ●      LISA: Website | LinkedIn | Facebook ●      BREA: Website | LinkedIn | Instagram   AI-Generated Transcript Lisa Hi, I'm Lisa.   Brea And I'm Brea   Lisa And today's topic is taking the CliftonStrengths assessment.   Brea Woo-woo!   Lisa All the things to expect. Brea, do you want to start with just kind of going back and forth, almost lightning round style, where we share with people what to expect when they open this thing up?   Brea Totally. So first of all, it's not a test. This is not something that you can fail. This is not something that is graded, okay? So it's an assessment that is looking at what's good in you and there are no wrong answers. So I think first off, that's where I'd love to start is just enter into it knowing that there are no wrong answers. You can't do it wrong. There's no way to mess it up. Just go in and just be your lovely self.   Lisa Agreed. And if you are a strengths coach, or you are internal inside of corporate, and you're doing this with your team, and you think people might even find the word assessment scary, like, Ooh, there is a right answer. They're assessing my, whether I'm good. I also have had plenty of clients use the term survey, and it goes totally fine. So yes, call it what is going to make sense to the person taking it and not feel like an evaluation of good or bad.   Brea Yes. Love that, Lisa. Just don't use the word test ever. It's bad. Love. Don't do it.   Lisa Yeah. You're going to turn the team off and they're going to be like, I don't want to take a test. Thank you very much. No thanks.   Brea How do you recommend people start approaching this, Lisa?   Lisa Well, one of the most important things, in my opinion, is just to give people an idea of the time it will take so that they can carve out the right amount of time. I think asking people to be sure they have an uninterrupted 45 minutes. I know some people will say 30 minutes or something shorter, but I like to go for 45 because you might have people who take it a little bit slower, and they might read the opening screens a little more slowly. And that way you've covered it, like they block, then they're going to probably block off an hour. And that those are uninterrupted minutes, because you can't pause it. And If you let them tick by, they're going to be counted as neutral. Those answers are going to get thrown out. And Brea, what's going to happen if they get a bunch of neutrals?   Brea Well, if they get a bunch of neutrals, it's, I mean, they don't even show your results. You know, it's kind of nullified and void. So not only do you waste your money and you waste your code, but you've put all that time into it and you didn't even get what you were looking for. So, you know, it's hard because a lot of people like, well, it depends, you know, I don't know if I'm strongly like this or not strongly like this. It depends on the situation as much as you can try to err on one side or the other of that median. And that will help your results so much.   Lisa Yes. And like, if I think of an example, here's what it's like. It's a bunch of questions. Actually, there are 200 questions. So you can imagine, in 45 minutes or less, zipping through 200 questions. They only give you 20 seconds each. And And it's a this or that. It's like, do you like cats or dogs? Now, those are not actual questions. You're not going to be asked things like cats or dogs, but I'm just doing it so that you can see an example of how you might be like, well, yes. And yes, I love both of those. I have to be neutral because I can't pick a cat over a dog. Other people are going to be like, dogs clearly are winners. And then you're going to strongly agree with that. And there are a couple of notches that you can do the strongly agree. The main point that I want to get out there is in this this or that exercise 200 times, you might feel like yes and yes or no and no. And you might feel so strongly that I dislike them both equally. That's what the neutral is for. But it really would need to be absolutely equal. Try to give it a weighting. on one side or the other. And just go with instinct, not what you're supposed to say, not what your role calls for today in the job, not what it's like at home versus at work. Just at your natural preference or instinct, what is the answer? Go, and don't overthink it.   Brea Totally. And I think if you get stuck, a good way to approach it is to think about when you were a kid, how might you have answered the question? Maybe not literally in your childhood, but the idea is it's not looking for skills. or knowledge or things that you've acquired as you've, you know, aged and grown and gone through life. These are natural patterns of thought, feeling and behavior. So when you're stressed, how might you, you know, if you're stressed in some way, you have to make a quick decision. What's your first instinctual, emotional reaction, don't answer as you think you should or as a good person or the right thing to do. How do you want to respond in that moment, in that situation? What feels most natural for you? And that's the right answer. That's the best answer.   Lisa Yeah, and I will add to that in the kind of team or corporate environment, every once in a while, people are like, well, I've done these before. And you know, I did, I did disk with my team back in the day. And if you were an S, then you were not the good group. And so people have had some experiences with something. I don't want to beat up disk because it can be really amazing if done well. But they've taken other assessments and they've had a bad experience. And when they do the workshop, as it unfolds, there becomes a good answer and a bad answer for that corporate culture or for that team. And that's really not ever something I've seen happen with strengths. So the thing is, if you do what Bria just said and you pick what naturally feels good to you. You pick your preference. There's not going to be a good answer or a bad answer. Every result that comes out is going to be something good that the team wants from you. So I love how the results show your success factors. And not good behavior, bad behavior. I have never seen teams demonize a theme or a group of these themes that come out. So I feel like you can rest easy knowing, no matter what your results are, they're going to show your easy buttons for success. they're not going to put you in a good crew or a bad crew. Not to mention, there are 34 potential talent themes that come out on the Strengths Report. So it's not like you can say, Well, No. 1, these 10 are great for our team. These 2 are not. There are just too many of them. So it is totally in your best interest to answer with your instinct.   Brea Totally. And just remember, what is all this for? Well, it's to discover what you naturally do best, how you naturally work or live as your best self. So to hide that because maybe you've learned to play smaller than you are or you've learned that people who have certain behaviors get ahead, you know, or whatever. If you're fitting yourself into those boxes, CliftonStrengths is your opportunity to just break down those walls and break down those barriers and really, really discover and celebrate what makes you unique and special. in a way that allows you to thrive. So one of the common objections that people have are hesitations to taking this assessment is I don't want to be put into a box. This really is as opposite of that as possible. This is breaking those boxes and it's saying you are one of a kind and we want you to be able to show up at work as your best self. So let's figure out what that is and then let's leverage it and use it for your success and for the success of the team.   Lisa Yes, well said. Oh, I think there are a couple more things that I would want to move back toward the beginning. Before they ever start answering the questions, there are two things that I just thought of they might want to know about. As we were talking about, Hey, it's timed, it's 20 seconds, give your instinct, be ready to zip through this uninterrupted time. If you are a person who says, oh my gosh, but all through university, I had an accommodation. I had the timer taken off all of my tests. This is an actual thing for me. You can call Gallup's help desk and get the timer taken off if you have a reason for accommodation. So that is a thing. Just wanted to make mention of that. And it does tell you that when you redeem your code, if you pay attention to the first couple of screens, And then the other thing is there are multiple languages. There are actually dozens of languages you can take the assessment in. So if English isn't your first language and you're more comfortable in another, that is available for you. And it's a question that some people want to know before they get into this thing.   Brea Yes. Great practical tips. That's why you're a pro, Lisa. I love that.   Lisa Thank you. Well, it takes away from instinct, right? Where you're like, wait, I'm translating in my head for the whole 20 seconds.   Brea Yes. And if you are planning to take it in your native language, there's no worry about how that affects the overall group. Your manager or your team leader or whoever will be able to see your results in English or in their primary language. So even if you take it in a different language, they'll be able to see your results in their native language.   Lisa Yeah. And I think depending on the type of assessment you take, so you can choose a top five report, which is the basic standard. You can take a full 34 report or get the full 34 report, I should say. Taking the assessment is the same no matter what. It's which report you've paid to see. So the top five is the standard basic. You can also do versions that are role specific. There's one called CliftonStrengths for Managers. There's one called CliftonStrengths for Leaders. And there's one called CliftonStrengths for Sales. And those are all Top 10 reports. They show a little bit more to you. And then there's a full 34, where you can see the stack rank of all of the 34 talent themes from 1 to 34. No matter what, Gallup knows your stack rank from top to bottom. And And then if you pay to unlock, you can see the greater amount. So I think that's nice to know, because you'll see in your own personal intensity order from top to bottom, it doesn't mean your strengths are at the top and your weaknesses are at the bottom. But it means you'll get your strongest through supporting through lesser. I think that's nice to know, because when you're when they're taking it, I experienced from my corporate clients, sometimes they're like, Well, is it going to show what I'm terrible at? And then I'm going to get exposed at work." No, it's going to show what your top easy buttons are. It's like a showing of your top success factors, which things should you lean on in order to most easily leverage what makes you great. And that's what this list of talents is showing.   Brea Yes. So this is so good, Lisa. I just want to reiterate and maybe clarify a little bit the difference between the assessment and the report. So this is such a great point that you're making. The assessment is the survey that you take, the 200 questions that you answer. There is only one CliftonStrengths assessment. It's put out by Gallup. There are no free versions of this. Anything else is an imitation. Gallup has one assessment. Everybody takes the same assessment. then you have the choice of which report you want. I think the full 34 is the best place to start. That's just my personal opinion because it shows you your full 34 profile, which there are 34 total talents. So like Lisa said, you get to see that full ranking, but you can choose to do just your top five. You can also choose to do a different report that's taking your results and describing it for your role as a manager, or for your role as a leader, or for your role as a salesperson. All the reports, all the results use the same data from the CliftonStrengths Assessment.   Lisa Yes, that is a great distinction. And also mentioning the free imitations and some of those things. That's great to know about. You also made me think about things that they say after taking the assessment. I don't know if you've heard of any kind of trend quips, but I have a couple that I hear people say over and over. And one of them is, I'll show up in a large workshop, and somebody grabs me beforehand, and they're like, Hey, Is this some sort of, like, try-to-catch-me-lying thing? Because it asked me the same question, surely, it was 10 times, and I thought that was so weird. Why does it keep asking me the same question? Am I lying? That's so funny. No, it's not any kind of lie-catching algorithm. Think about the this or that. Do you like dogs and cats example that I gave? But what about if you say, I don't know, I'm kind of neutral. I absolutely adore dogs and cats equally. I cannot decide. You click neutral. But then if it says, what about cats versus snakes? And you're like, oh, I love cats compared to snakes. Well, see, you didn't give cats the vote before, but now you gave cats a high vote. And so that's what it's doing. It's taking it and putting it next to something else. Because how else is it going to make a stack rank if it doesn't give you multiple scenarios with the same thing? You're not in a trap if it keeps asking you the same question. Do you have anything like that you have heard?   Brea I've never heard anybody say it quite like that. It's just making me giggle.   Lisa Yeah, this is good. There's one other one I've heard several times. People are like, how does it come up with those questions? It's funny because some people are like, yeah, it's just really transactional. It gives you just a bunch of preferences. And then other people are like, it's asking me about whether I'm sensitive or I like history movies or something and there they have a little bit of an interpretation memory of what the questions were. But again, it's just asking you questions that get to these themes of talent that reflect how you think or feel or act when you're at your natural best. Most of the questions from workplace standpoint don't surprise people but there are a couple in there where they're like whoa this is like deeper life stuff and I think that gets to the theme of just this is you as a whole person don't try to answer it as the work you and separate it and say well the home me would be like this and the work me would be like that because the truth is You are a person, and you might reveal more of yourself at home or work. But back to Bria's point about just, like, give your instinct answer. That is a key part of what to expect here.   Brea I love that. Yeah, I think what I hear most from people is just, wow, how did that know me so well? You know, like it totally nailed it. So not always, but most of the time people just love their results. Maybe that's just my positivity that remembers those comments more, but most of the time that's, you know, what I hear is like, wow, is this a crystal ball, you know?   Lisa Yes. Well, now I lead through positivity in my Top 5 as well. So maybe we're introducing a bias here. But I will say I, I know that I hear that often. And they'll say, Gosh, based on the questions, I'm so surprised at how it came to this and how it describes me. I've had people say, Whoa, this report, it has said the nicest things about me than anyone has ever said about me. And then I have a lot of people say, Wow, this really nailed me and brought some unique perspective into the way that I work or think that I've, I've never been able to put into words. And then we, of course, can put it into their career brand and team assignments and all kinds of useful things. But it is always a surprise to a good handful of people how those questions translated into the outcomes and the, the talent themes that come out in the report. So I love that you brought that up.   Brea I love that and I want to squeeze one more quick practical thing in. A lot of times people take this at work and then they're like, wow, can my spouse take this? Can my kids take this? Can I use this at home or can I take this to a more personal place? And the answer is yes and absolutely. If you're thinking about kids, Gallup recommends adults take this CliftonStrengths assessment, which is usually like juniors and seniors in high school. and up. So if you have little kids, this is not the assessment for them. Gallup does have another assessment for them, but 18 and up or, you know, a junior who is just maybe a little bit ahead, I think I've used it with some juniors and seniors. Beautiful.   Lisa Yeah. Great mention in that CliftonStrengths for Students. And what's the book? Strengths-Based Parenting that Gallup put out, where there are some codes that you could use with your whole family?   Brea Yeah, it's amazing. I think Strengths-Based Parenting actually includes two codes, one for the parent and one for the child, which is cool.   Lisa Exactly. Beautiful. OK, so if somebody wants to work with you, Bria, on any of the aforementioned CliftonStrengths. How would they go about working with you?   Brea Yeah, so my website is really the best place to connect with me. It's BriaRoper.com. That's B-R-E-A-R-O-P-E-R.com. And you can schedule a quick little chat. We'll meet each other and see if we're a good fit. And if not, no big deal. No pressure. What about you, Lisa?   Lisa Well, LeadThroughStrengths.com is where you can find the website. And in the context of the conversation today, I would point people to the link in the top navigation called Buy Codes. And that way, if you want to buy a code and you haven't yet, now you totally know what to expect and you will be ready to go. You can just grab one on your own and then pick up the phone and find yourself a coach from there. And that's a future episode that we'll cover. What do you do after you get this report? What could you do with coaching and what could you do with it on your own?   Brea Yes, I'm so excited for that conversation.   Lisa Amazing. All right. Well, with that, we are so happy that you're interested in your strengths and love that you now can have a greater view into how your strengths can act like your easy buttons for life.   Brea Awesome. Go live your strengths, people. Go take the assessment if you haven't already. Take it. Discover your strengths because you are awesome.   Lisa You are. Go do it as soon as possible.   Brea Right now, just go right now.   Let's Connect! ●      LISA: Website | LinkedIn | Facebook ●      BREA: Website | LinkedIn | Instagram  

About This Episode So, you're ready to engage with a coach. Awesome! But there are SO many different coaches out there. How in the world do you choose? Lisa and Brea are here to help clear through the confusion and get you on the right path.  This episode is all about how to choose the coach that's right for you, right now. Listen in as Brea & Lisa discuss what to look for in a coach, the different types of coaches available, the importance of finding a good fit, and more. If you're considering working with a coach, this episode will give you some great insights and advice. Check it out! Work With Us! If you need a Strengths Hype girl, for yourself or your team, connect with BREA at brearoper.com. Whether you bring her in to deliver a keynote, training, or workshop… or, you're looking for an expert guide to support your internal Strengths efforts… Brea's ready to create a custom solution for any need, any budget. To work with LISA, check out team workshops and retreats at the Lead Through Strengths site. For 1:1 strengths or life coaching, check out the Get Coached link. For independent coaches, trainers, and speakers, get business tools support with our Tools for Coaches membership. Takeaways Not all coaches are created equal: For as many different reasons you might hire a coach, there are different types of coaches out there. Just like an athlete might have several types of coaches for different needs, understanding the different types of professional coaches will help you pick the one for you. Finding the right ‘fit' is super important: Connecting with a coach is essential for your success. Look for a coach who aligns with your personality and communication style. Inquire about their coaching style and approach. If you're a coach, remember – assessing fit goes both ways. The most successful coaching relationships are ones where there's a mutual fit. The role of a coach: A good coach will act as a mirror, reflecting back what they see and hear. This can help you observe your own brain and identify patterns you may not be able to see on your own. A strengths coach will do this with a unique focus on what's already strong in you. Take Action Reflect on Your Needs: Begin with the end in mind. Think about where you are now, where you want to go, and what you need to get there. What do you want to achieve through coaching? Do you prefer a coach who provides direct advice or one who helps you observe your own thought patterns? What type of coach will best support your goals? Schedule a Discovery Call: Take the first step by scheduling a discovery call with a potential coach to assess fit and understand their coaching style. Let's Connect! LISA Website | LinkedIn | Facebook BREA: Website | LinkedIn | Instagram   Remember, you already have everything you need to succeed! Sometimes, you just need a coach to help you see it.

There are a range of outcomes from a genomic test. The results might provide a diagnosis, there may be a variant of uncertain significance, where a genetic variant is likely the cause of the condition, or there might be no particular gene found that is linked to the phenotype or clinical condition - also known as a "no primary finding" result. In this episode, our guests explore the impact of a "no primary finding" result on families, discussing the common experiences and expectations of parents and patients who undergo that genetic testing, and the role that hope plays in the experiences of children with rare and undiagnosed conditions. Today's host, Lisa Beaton, member of the Participant Panel at Genomics England is joined by Dr Celine Lewis, Principal Research Fellow in Genomics at UCL, Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health, Jana Gurasashvili, a Genetic Counsellor, and Louise Fish, CEO of Genetic Alliance.   "I think it's also really important to add that hope isn't necessarily lost when you don't get a diagnostic result. And in a sense, what can be really helpful is for genetic counsellors to reframe that hope...sort of giving it a different context."   For more information on the SWAN UK project which supports families with children that have been through genetic testing but have not found a result following that genetic testing, visit the website. Read more about the study by Jana Gurasashvili and Dr Celine Lewis: The disequilibrium of hope: a grounded theory analysis of parents' experiences of receiving a "no primary finding" result from genome sequencing.   You can read the transcript below or down it here: https://files.genomicsengland.co.uk/documents/Podcast-transcripts/Hope-for-those-with-no-primary-findings.docx    Lisa: Hello, welcome to the G Word.  Lisa: I think in the back of my mind, subconsciously, I had hoped that when we eventually got a diagnosis, it would – I don't know, bells and whistles, balloons going off, fireworks, etc. And then the experience of a letter thumping on the doormat, and I recognised the postmark quite quickly, and it was at that moment I suddenly thought, “Oh gosh, I haven't buried all these feelings of hope.” Because I opened that letter with quite trembly hands, and then this diagnosis or lack of diagnosis, you know, nothing had been found, and it was a bit… I don't know if it's been described as like a nail in the coffin experience, because I really hadn't realised I was still clinging to this hope all that time, and then again it was, you know, another, “No, nothing's there. Lisa: My name is Lisa Beaton and I'm a member of the participant panel at Genomics England. On today's episode, I'm joined by Dr Celine Lewis, the principal research fellow in Genomics at UCL, Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health, Jana Gurasashvili, a genetic counsellor, and Louise Fish, the CEO of Genetic Alliance. Today we'll be discussing the impact on parents with children with rare conditions, who received a no primary findings result after diagnostic whole genome sequencing. If you enjoy today's episode, we'd love your support. Please like, share and rate us on wherever you listen to your podcasts. Can I ask all of us here present to introduce themselves, please? Celine: Hi everyone, I'm Celine, I'm a behavioural scientist in genomics at UCL Institute of Child Health, and I currently hold an NAHR advanced fellowship to look at the implementation of WGS, or whole genome sequencing, in the NHS. Jana: I'm Jana Gurasashvili and I'm a genetic counsellor at Northwest Thames Regional Genetic Service, and prior to that I was at Great Ormond Street, involved with consenting families to the 100,000 Genomes Project, and I also have an ongoing interest in the lived experience of patients and parents of genetic counselling and rare disease. Louise: Hi, I'm Louise Fish, I'm the chief executive of Genetic Alliance UK, and we are an alliance of around 230 charities and support groups that work with patients and families who have particular rare conditions. We also run a really longstanding project called SWAN UK, and SWAN stands for syndromes without a name. And the SWAN UK project supports families with children that have been through genetic testing but have not found a result following that genetic testing. So, it's clear they have a genetic condition, but science hasn't quite advanced far enough yet to tell us what that means and what that will mean for their child, and what that will mean for their family over the coming years. Lisa: And I personally can attest to the wonderful support that SWAN UK can offer because, as the parent of a still undiagnosed child, I have been involved myself with SWAN UK since my daughter was around the age of three to four years old. It's brilliant being a part of my big SWAN UK family. We first realised that there were some – I suppose something wrong with our daughter when she was around two weeks of age, but it wasn't something I could specifically put my finger on. I couldn't at that point have taken her to a doctor and said, “I don't know what's wrong but there's something wrong.” I just knew in my heart of hearts, probably because I have three elder children, that there were issues, and things weren't developing as they should. She cried a lot, she screamed a lot, she never seemed to be comfortable in any position when you held her, when she was asleep, when she was upright. It didn't seem to matter what you did, she was just a rigid, stuck child, for want of a better word. And all my mum senses were screaming, but it completely sounded ridiculous to take her to a doctor saying, “She feels wrong.” And I think that's quite a SWAN UK experience, from chatting to other families with similar situations. The parents just know that there's something not right, but it can be very isolating not to be able to identify kind of where that starts and what it is. In our case, it wasn't until our daughter was nine weeks old that things became much more obvious, that there were developmental concerns physically and medically, and at that point we went from my sort of mutterings that there was something wrong but I wasn't sure what it was, to a sudden hospital admission with quite a shocking turn of events. From something that had started out quite normally, as a routine visit to the baby clinic, to suddenly being seen by a troop of different paediatricians, and doctors coming in and out constantly, asking different questions, and sending us off all over the building for different tests and x-rays and imaging. And being given a partial diagnosis that our daughter had a condition called arthrogryposis, but it was clear that there was much more going on than that, and we would need referring to many more different fields. And that day really our diagnostic odyssey, for want of a better word, began. So actually, in terms of that diagnostic odyssey, many parents of children with rare undiagnosed conditions experience this, and when we agree to have genetic testing, we feel that we are going to get these answers straight away, and that every appointment that you go along to is going to be the one that brings you the answers. But certainly in our experience kind of 15 years on, that's not been the story at all. Celine, can I ask you to explain what the words no primary findings actually mean when a parent receives that regarding their child? Celine: So, there's a range of different possible outcomes from a genomic test. So, the results might provide a diagnosis to that patient and family, or other situations, there might be a variant of uncertain significance, so we don't necessarily know if the gene that we found, a genetic variant is the likely cause of the condition, or we might find no particular gene at all that we think is linked to the child's phenotype or clinical condition. So, that's what we mean really when we're sort of saying no primary finding. Lisa: Louise, would you be kind enough to explain what you think the impact of no primary findings means to families like my own, parents who don't have a genetic likelihood cause, just a gene thrown up to diagnose their child? Louise: Yeah, I think it's a huge challenge for families, and you'll obviously know that from your own experience. People go to have genetic testing hoping it will give them some answers, first and foremost, just to kind of understand, you know, what condition their child has and what the likely impact that's going to be on their child and on the child's life, and on the family's wider life. And I think one of the things that we really ask genetic counsellors and geneticists to do is help people understand before the genetic testing takes place that there may be nothing found from it, so that that kind of expectation is built in. Because people hope that they will get a diagnosis that will give them answers about what the impact of the condition will be on their lives. In a best-case scenario, access to a particular treatment that might be a huge help for their child, but at the very least, access to a range of services and support for their child. So, that kind of diagnosis is often seen by families as the key to unlocking a range of services and support that will help them and their families at what is the beginning of a lifelong journey. And I think when families get no diagnosis, there's a real concern on behalf of families, a, that they don't understand how their child's going to be affected by the condition. What we're really careful to say to families is, “Just ‘cos you don't have a diagnosis with a name, your child is still the same person they were before. They still have exactly the same bundle of needs as they had before, and you will still need to work with the NHS and with wider services to make sure that they can access speech and language therapy, and physiotherapy, and all of the services that they are going to need and you are going to need to help them live their lives to the full.” But I think that moment of not getting a diagnosis is when people feel I think real – the uncertainty continues, and uncertainty, we know, is a really hard thing to live with, and the lack of clarity about which services you'll be able to access. So, I think psychologically it's a massive impact on the family not to have the answers that they were looking for, or the key to the services that they were hoping would be there. Lisa: Thank you, Louise, yeah, I would definitely agree with that. We had a no primary findings result in I think it was 2019. It was a really bittersweet moment because my daughter's list of various different conditions kind of – by this point, named parts of difficulties for her spans over sort of two pages of A4, and yet on the letter back from the genomics service, it just says that, you know, nothing causative has been found. And so part of you is left wondering, well, how can there be all these different conditions or difficulties, and yet there's still nothing there? And I know personally, I had comments when she was much younger, every time a test came back, where people would say things like, “Oh well, that's great news,” and to some extent it was great news that something hadn't been found, but also if that hadn't been found, what was still out there? And that fear of kind of the unknown was extremely difficult. And also paradoxically, there was a sense of some very well meaning people saying things like, “Oh well, if they haven't found anything then there can't be too much wrong.” But yeah, I have a child who is tube fed and on multiple different medications, and cared for basically for 24 hours a day, so that doesn't really fit in with the picture of there not being very much wrong from a personal perspective. And I think it can make you as a parent/carer feel perhaps there's a tendency to downplay that there is an issue and that perhaps, you know, you're making it up, for want of a better word, and that sense of isolation around that can certainly be problematic. Celine, if I can come to you, that diagnostic odyssey, what are the common experiences and expectations of parents and patients who undergo that genetic testing from your perspective? Celine: Well, I think sort of parents go into genetics testing for a whole range of reasons really, and Louise has already alluded to many of these. Ones that I've come across in my own work include wanting to know why their child has a particular health problem, so that that child can access the most suitable treatments or therapies, or even access clinical trials. Even relief from guilt for many parents, a validation that the parents hadn't done anything wrong during their pregnancy to cause the child's condition, and that's hugely important really, to try and get that relief from guilt. Also to know whether future children might be affected by the same condition, and then more social reasons really, for example, making contact with other parents through support groups, or access to social and educational support. And I think there's also a drive from many parents to feel that they're doing everything absolutely possible for their child. I mean, particularly with something like the 100,000 Genomes Project, it was really a sort of first of its kind project, where patients were on a significant scale able to access this new whole genome sequencing technology. So, many of the parents taking part in that project felt like pioneers, and there was really a lot of expectations around whole genome sequencing in delivering a diagnosis for those parents who'd previously not been able to get hold of one. Lisa: Yes, I strongly can resonate with a number of the points you made there, particularly the feelings of guilt. I must have asked myself a thousand times whether, you know, something I did do, something I didn't do, something I thought of, something I hadn't thought of [laughter], all those questions that swirl around, particularly in the small hours of the night when you feel particularly alone. And yes, I can completely relate to that. And also although SWAN UK is primarily for children and parent/carers whose children don't have a diagnosis, actually a number of the parent/carers on there will have children with diagnoses that are so very rare that absolutely, you know, very, very little is known. They might be the only parent – the diagnosis, for want of a better word, they may have received may just be a series of kind of numbers and genetic dot-dashes, forgive my layman's terms there, but it may not actually help them any further along in terms of feeling that they know anything further or the direction of, you know, where that will lead their children, and that can feel very, very isolating, I'm sure, probably just as much for those of us who don't have that diagnosis. Louise: Yeah, just to add to that, I think that's absolutely right, Lisa, and I just want to give a shoutout – at SWAN UK, we tend to support families who don't have a diagnosis at all, or, as you say, a small number of families who do but have been part of the SWAN UK family for so long that we're very happy to keep them because of the support they're finding from other parents. We work really closely with another of our members, Unique, who are a charity that support parents in exactly the situation you've talked about, where people have finally got a diagnosis and it's that kind of relief of having a name, but it's a super long name, and you find out you're one of only three families in the world with that diagnosis. And so although there's a real I think comfort for people, perhaps if you have a five year old and you're meeting a family who have a 13 year old and a family of a 19 year old, then you start to see a little bit about how your child might develop, but there's not enough kids affected that you can be really certain about that. So, it gives you a little bit more information, but not the kind of wealth of information you were hoping for about how your child's going to be impacted by a particular condition, and what the future might hold for you and for them. So, SWAN UK and Unique very much work alongside each other to kind of support families on whichever part of that journey they're on, because there's still a huge amount of uncertainty for families with those super rare conditions, as you say. Lisa: Definitely, and I'm sure you'll be familiar, Louise, yourself if you get time to go on the online communities and seeing the question that pops up quite regularly when somebody has received a diagnosis of, “Can we still remain part of the SWAN UK family?” And they very much use that word, family, because I think they do feel that, although all our children are different, there are children with physical, medical, cognitive, a combination of all the above syndromes, conditions, etc, they feel that kind of embrace of all being in a collective club of rare and unique and undiagnosed, and that's very comforting to the members. Louise: Absolutely, yeah, I think that sense of belonging and being able to reach out to other families that you've been on that journey with for many, many years. You know, many of our families join when their children are like one or two, and they're still with us when, you know, their children are 26, 27 [laughter], and that sense of having that community and that family and that belonging is really, really important to people, I agree. It makes a big difference psychologically to be part of a community you can reach out to and ask the questions that perhaps you can't ask to other people. Lisa: Celine, can I ask you how many patients for the 100,000 Genome Project have had a no primary findings diagnosis back? Celine: Well, back in 2021, there was a paper published in the New England Journal of Medicine, which reported that, in the initial pilot for the 100K, a diagnosis was found for around 25 percent of rare disease participants, and other studies looking at the diagnostic yield of whole genome sequencing have put the number anywhere between 25 percent to 55 percent, depending on the clinical indication. And we know that even already from the 100,000 Genomes Project, this pioneering project has led to more than 6,000 diagnoses being identified, and that number will obviously continue to go up as they explore the data and gather new insights. However, that still obviously leaves a significant number that won't get a result from whole genome sequencing, as many as half of those rare disease patients, and that was really the basis of the study that Jana and I worked on. So, we felt that there had been so much research really looking at the experience of parents who do receive a genetic diagnosis, and that a lot of attention rightfully does focus on the amazing successes of the 100,000 Genomes Project and genomic medicine more broadly, but actually that there is a considerable number of patients and parents and families who don't get a result, and we felt that it was important that we also focus on those parents and patients, and try and understand their experiences. Lisa: Yes, you can feel, if your child, for example, is under multiple different care specialists, that it can be quite hard, when you've just got this list of different names of things that are wrong, that you feel very much still out on the limb and forgotten about. But it's clear that, from your work, you're identifying that and pointing that back to the specialists, the consultants, to remind them that these parents and these children are still finding their ways through. Can I ask you, Jana, the study that was conducted, what would you say the main things from that study told us? Can you describe some of the emotions experienced by the parents, and what challenges that they have faced along that receiving the no primary findings diagnosis? Jana: Yes. So, many participants really felt very strong disappointment and sadness on receiving that no result, and for many, it kind of reflected the feelings they had had when they first realised they had a child and there was no diagnosis for their condition. And as Celine said, this was such a new technology that people had invested a lot of hope in, and so many felt that it had been their last chance of finding a reason for their child's condition, and that they'd come to the end of the road with that no primary finding result. And, well, one person described it as another door shut. And people talked about the actual toll taken, the emotional and physical toll, and one person described feeling low for several weeks following the result. And some talked about the timing of the result. Somebody got it as a letter just before Christmas, and so their whole family holiday that they'd prepared was marred by getting that news just before Christmas. And it often seemed to leave parents feeling isolated and unable to contribute to normal parental roles, such as going to parent groups, etc, because they felt that other mothers particularly - as it's mothers we were speaking to, other mothers, their experience of motherhood was so incredibly different to their own, and they felt a lack of support. And one parent actually talked about wanting to lock everyone in the house just to escape the feeling of judgement and pity from outside the front door. And some parents talked about finding it hard when other people would post on support groups that they had got results from the 100,000 Genomes Project, which was very difficult. And some talked about hope as finding it hard to keep hopeful but needing to keep hopeful. So, they talked of hanging onto a little bit of hope, as though that was quite an intense thing, which I think, Celine, you'll agree, that made us able to kind of identify that hope was really part of a coping mechanism for this whole process of going through this diagnostic odyssey. Celine: Yeah, people sort of talked about not wanting to let go of hope and the importance of hope, and that without hope, there was no sense of wanting to continue this journey of trying to find a diagnosis, and that it was still very important to people. And I think that parents did understand that, even though a no primary findings result now, that doesn't necessarily mean that they won't get a diagnosis at some point in the future. So, there's obviously the opportunity to do future reanalysis of the genome, particularly as we understand more about the function of different genes, and as new genes are added to many of the panels that we're using in whole genome sequencing. So, I don't think not finding a result means that there is no hope in these circumstances, but for many parents, they did talk about hope being too painful, and not wanting to be let down again, and really preferred to focus on the here and the now rather than necessarily focus on the future. Lisa: Yes, I can only speak from my own experience here, but I think I primed myself to actually forget about going on the 100,000 genomes sequencing because, having undergone genetic testing for certain conditions that they were quite convinced my daughter had from around the age of four months through to around the age of three years, I'd gone to so many appointments and thought, “Oh, this'll be the time that I turn up and somebody will tell me this is what is the diagnosis.” And when I then joined the 100,000 Genomes Project in 2015 with my husband and my daughter, the genetic experience, the discussions that we had at the time were very helpful in that it was made quite clear to me that potentially we wouldn't get a finding, and actually that any information that did come forward was perhaps unlikely to be hugely beneficial to our family at that point. So, I was quite clear what potential finding would mean to us. But I think in the back of my mind, subconsciously, I had hoped that, when we eventually got a diagnosis, it would – I don't know, bells, whistles, balloons going up, fireworks, etc. And then the experience of a letter thumping on the doormat, and I recognised the postmark quite quickly, and it was at that moment I suddenly thought, “Oh gosh, I haven't buried all these feelings of hope.” Because I opened that letter with quite trembly hands, and then this diagnosis or lack of diagnosis, you know, nothing had been found, and it was a bit… I don't know if it's been described as like a nail in the coffin experience, because I really hadn't realised I was still clinging to this hope all that time, and then again it was, you know, another, “No, nothing's there.” And I think because of the work I've undertaken with SWAN UK as a volunteer, and being quite involved in wanting to sort of educate myself and learn more, I did understand that, even though we had no primary findings, it didn't mean that the study, everything was closed to us. It didn't mean, you know, that things won't still be looked for. But equally, at the same time, it just meant that we had nothing yet to pin anything on at that point. And I think it's quite hard to pick yourself up and dust yourself off again, to be like, “Okay, we're still here, we're still circling that drain,” as it were. I think actually that takes us on quite nicely really, about what role hope has in the experiences of a child with rare and undiagnosed conditions. And again if I can just say that there's hope and there's realism, and somewhere along the way, if you've been on the journey for quite a long period of time like ourselves, you have to try and find a way of living with that hope and realism all at the same time. So, we're still hopeful that one day we might get some answers, but we're realistic that day to day we need to focus on the difficulties or the experiences that my daughter has, so that we can manage to give her the skills to live her life to the very best of her abilities. Certainly, that's our experience. And also I think if I'd let myself dwell forever on not having a diagnosis or a pathway specifically for that, it would have been quite difficult to carry on, pick ourselves up every day. What would you think about the role of hope there, Louise? What would you say your experience is from chatting to fellow parent/carers? Louise: Yeah, I think you've described it really eloquently and better than I'll be able to do, but when we talk to people, the phrase I always have in my head is kind of hope for tomorrow and help for today are the two things that people are looking for. So, making sure that that hope for tomorrow's still there both in terms of, you know, the NHS being really clear that it will provide support for individuals without a diagnosis, and there may be opportunities for reanalysis in the future as science makes future progress. And, you know, there is progress being made so fast at the moment in genomics and that's really welcome. So, making sure that people who've already had whole genome sequencing but not found anything continue to have access to that potential reanalysis I think is really important. As you've rightly said, Lisa, as well, thinking through in terms of hope for tomorrow, the opportunity to take part in clinical trials and to make that as easy as possible where treatments are being delivered, to have the opportunities to take part in trials for non-condition specific treatments, whether that's for epilepsy, which affects people across a whole range of conditions, or sleeplessness, which affects people across a whole range of genetic conditions. You know, there are both trials that only people who have a particular condition can take part in, and trials that are open more broadly, so making sure those opportunities are available as well, so that people have that kind of hope for the future. But alongside that, I think it's really important for the NHS to be clear with people about what help for today will continue to be available, and so we are working really hard with the NHS to emphasise the fact that when no diagnosis is possible, the NHS still needs to be clear to people about how they will be supported, whether that's through the genetics team or a particular discipline, perhaps the one that is the closest fit for their child's biggest need, whatever that may be, that they can still access more joined up care. So, you know, who is the person in the NHS, if you don't have a diagnosis, who's going to help you secure referrals to speech and language therapy, to physiotherapy, to learning disability nurses, and to the package of care that your child may need. Who is the clinician, if you don't have a clear diagnosis, who's going to be the person with the authority and the confidence to lead the multidisciplinary team, maybe up to 30 healthcare professionals who are going to support your child. You know, who is going to be the lead clinician that's going to pull that multidisciplinary team together and make sure that your child's not being prescribed stuff that's contraindicated, or that's going to help one element of their condition but make another element worse. So, we are really trying to work with the NHS to make sure they're thinking through, where will that support be for the family in terms of their healthcare. And alongside that, you know, many wider services like schools or social care or employers welcome the chance to talk to a geneticist or a genetic counsellor or nurse to understand what adjustments they might need to make for someone who clearly has a genetic condition but doesn't have a clear diagnosis. And so we're trying to kind of make sure the NHS is both focused on the kind of science side and making sure that the hope for future findings is there, but also the help side, and making sure that the right package of care is still available for families who clearly have a genetic condition. Lisa: Actually Louise, yeah, you've really summed it up excellently there, and whilst I am hugely grateful to the NHS and the various services, I can say, hand on my heart, my daughter has a huge number of professionals involved, both from the health side of things and social care side of things, and actually the person that kind of holds all that together is myself. And because we're under multiple different teams, every time a new medication, for example, is prescribed, I need to go back to our lead team, which in this case happens to be neuromuscular, and check that, for example, if gastroenterology have prescribed a medication, that it's not contraindicated from a neuromuscular side of things and so forth. It's all a bit like having sort of interlocking parts of a jigsaw, but perhaps no picture to follow [laughter], and that can be quite an isolating experience. And certainly, having chatted to fellow parent/carers, I know that's their experience as well. And I imagine, Celine and Jana, you found sort of similar experiences when conducting the research. Celine: Yeah, so my PhD actually was focusing on the sort of journey for parents as they go through the diagnostic process, and one of the things that came out really strongly from that body of work was how the parents were really carving their own care pathway, how they had to sort of push and fight to access services, but at the same time were the gatekeepers for their child's health. Having to make sure all the various teams and clinicians were kept up to date with all the different tests that they had and all the results. And, you know, at times, this could be really frustrating for a lot of parents, ‘cos they had to keep repeating their story over and over again, particularly ‘cos they didn't have a diagnosis. So, these parents really were having a very different parental experience to many of their friends and family, because their experience of being a parent to a child with an undiagnosed condition was really sort of as being a patient advocate, and as having to push and fight to access services. Lisa: Yeah, it's quite a unique experience. You are the specialist for your own child in that sense, I think would be the way I'd describe it. And I suppose over the years, I've got so used to sort of trotting out different medical explanations in terms that you can almost sound like you know what you're doing [laughter]. And a few times when I've been at medical appointments, and perhaps we've met a new specialist or consultant, they've said, “Oh, what's your field? What's your area of expertise?” And actually you just think, “No, I'm just a specialist in my own child” [laughter]. But that's quite an empowering feeling actually, so I guess that plays back into the feelings around hope and expectation, even with having an undiagnosed child. Lisa:    When I was recruited to the 100,000 Genome Programme, we didn't actually as a family receive genetic counselling specifically, and I know that this is something that is incredibly important to many families, and how that can support you sort of going forward. We were quite lucky in our experience in that we knew that our daughter was definitely going to be our last child, so we didn't have the thoughts and insecurities around potentially what it might mean for any future children that we had. But certainly as my daughter has got older and she's asking her own questions, and our older children are at a stage in life where they're looking at potentially having families in the future, I know that those things have come up, and we're just still exploring what that will mean in the bigger picture. But can you tell us, Jana, really what can genetic counsellors do to help parents feel less isolated and better to cope with the uncertainty surrounding their child's condition? Jana: Yes, well, I'm sorry to hear you didn't have any genetic counselling prior to going on the 100,000 Genomes Project, because that consent conversation right at the beginning, before the whole genome sequencing, is really important. It's important to know what the range of outcomes may be, so that it may be that you might get a result, you might get a variant of uncertain significance, or you might get no result. And parents in our study did suggest that their sense of isolation when they got a no primary finding result would have been alleviated if they'd known how many were not getting results. So I think in the longer run, it's 40 percent perhaps received a result, so that's 60 percent that didn't receive a result, so those parents were not alone, but they felt very alone. And some suggested if they'd just had a leaflet really explaining that, and explaining that they'd still contributed to research and that that had been, you know, a good outcome in a sense, then they would have felt better about it. So, a lot of work can be done before the testing really, to explore how you might feel on that range of results, and then that way sort of prepare parents for how they're going to feel, and perhaps that helps them to have things in place, to know that it might be a vulnerable time with that letter, although that was particular for the 100,000 Genomes Project, to get the result in a letter in that way, and as you described, after such a long time, that you'd been able to forget that you'd been on the project. But to actually be a little bit prepared that it make take its toll on you might actually help with preparing oneself. It also might be helpful to include ways of promoting ways to enhance health and wellbeing for parents in terms of practical support, such as those things that you're already attempting to access, like the respite services, school support, support groups, and thinking about psychological wellbeing and ways of managing stress, psychological support for parents, and possibly spirituality based resources as well. And focusing maybe on what is known about the child's condition even without a diagnosis, so what's likely to be beneficial, and support parents in actively coping, such as what research they might be able to access, and continued medical support. And also actually having a named person within the genetics service, so they have someone to go to for any follow-up that has a name, and so they don't feel isolated from the genetic service. And signposting to those external resources, such as SWAN UK, can be very important as well, of course. Celine: I think it's also really important to add that hope isn't necessarily lost when you don't get a diagnostic result. And in a sense, what can be really helpful is for genetic counsellors to reframe that hope, if you like. So, one thing that we talk about in our paper is that it might be useful for health professionals to ask a question such as, “In light of the new information that we now have from the whole genome sequencing result, what are you hoping for now?” So in a way, it's sort of reframing that hope, sort of giving it a different context. Lisa: Definitely, and I think one of the things as well is that, because potentially for when parents were first recruited to a study such as the 100,000 Genome specifically in this case, that it might be quite a length of time between that initial recruitment and when the actual result comes out. And of course, in that time, with the advances in genetics, it's sort of somewhat of a Pandora's box really, isn't it, in that we're almost kind of finding the information out quicker than we actually know how to process it and what it potentially means. So actually if there's a genetic counsellor available to speak to those parents, or for those parents to be signposted to somebody who can say, “Well look, since you were recruited, actually this is happening, that's happening,” or, “These research projects are happening,” personally, I can say that is going to be really helpful and handy, and would have been really useful. I just know that for myself anyway and my family, that if there was a leaflet or something that had given me a way of knowing how I could contact somebody in the future, that would be really helpful. What ways do genetic counsellors use in maintaining a delicate balance between not creating false hope but also providing meaningful support to parents? What would you say around that, Jana? Jana: I think as we've already touched on, it's that managing expectations from the outset when the test is offered. So, not generating too much hype or excitement, but setting those expectations, giving that information about the diagnostic yield. Also, informing parents that what people do experience has been described as a rollercoaster of emotions. It's normal. You might also want to explore people, not only what they're hoping for, but also the outcomes that they might be fearing, and giving them a chance to voice those, because they can be very powerful things as well. A diagnosis might not be what you want to hear, so there can be a lot of ambivalence around wanting a diagnosis when it might actually be a life limiting condition, that you didn't really want that certainty. And also helping parents to explore how not receiving a result might feel, so that they've actually rehearsed it a little bit, and where they might go to when they need a bit of extra support. So, they already know, “I go and talk to my friends, that's where I get my support from,” so that they're kind of ready for it, and that might help them with that sense of isolation, but also validating these feelings. So, it's okay, it's okay to have that dip, it's okay to feel, that it's something that many people experience. And creating a safe space for people to feel that, so if they want to talk to a professional or a friend, that those feelings are validated. And in that way, kind of with that pre-counselling really, helping parents to develop their own set of resources, so they've got those to draw on. And as you've mentioned, Lisa, it's like having your own resources also helps generate that feeling of empowerment and control. And as Celine has said, it's really facilitating parents through that passage of reframing what you're hoping for, reframing what the future looks like, if you had one picture of a future. You need to become comfortable with the future you're now looking at. Lisa: Thank you, Jana. Louise, if I can ask you really, we've already touched on the role that SWAN UK can play for parents dealing with undiagnosed rare conditions, but perhaps if you could home in on that and explain in more detail the main focus of SWAN UK, and what that can do for parent/carers. Louise: So, what SWAN UK primarily does is bring together parents who are in a similar situation. So, we have a team of amazing parent representatives, who Lisa is one, who help us shape the support that SWAN UK can provide, and really make sure that it's based on a really strong understanding of what it's like to be a parent of a child with an undiagnosed genetic condition, and an understanding of that kind of expertise that parents who have been on that journey themselves will bring. So, we have a series of Facebook groups. Some of them are for different regions, so people come into contact with other parents in their area who are going through similar circumstances. Some of them are more around age. So, you know, we have Facebook groups for parents who are waiting for a diagnosis or have got a new diagnosis, and then we have a group called SWAN Graduates, which is for children who are older and over 18, so their parents can come together and share their experiences. So, it's really to help parents be able to talk to one another, to share their experiences, to support one another, and often to ask for advice. They're often kind of practical questions about, you know, “My child needs this kind of wheelchair, has anybody been able to source that from somewhere?” “My child's having real difficulties eating at the moment, can anyone give some advice on this particular challenge?” “This thing someone else has faced, how did you approach it? Where did you reach out for support?” So, that peer to peer advice and support is really at the heart of SWAN UK. And then what we try and provide around that is access sometimes to information events, where there's particular issues that are affecting a lot of SWAN families. So, we hope over the coming year to have a series of information events targeted at families with children who don't have a diagnosis, and some of it is just trying to have social events and bring people together again. We've had, for example, an active dads group in Wales, who've been bowling and wanted to go axe throwing, and really they just want to come together with other dads who are in the same situation, and being able to talk to one another and provide emotional support to one another. So, that's kind of the nub of SWAN UK and what we do, and then alongside that, that kind of fits in with Genetic Alliance's wider goal, which is much more around campaigning for improved services. So for example, the Genetic Alliance UK team has worked really closely with commissioners in Wales, who actually commissioned the first SWAN clinic, which is in Cardiff. That was a two year pilot, to see what support could be provided both to help SWAN families get a diagnosis, but far beyond that, to make sure that the care for families who don't have a diagnosis is better joined up. And that we feel has been a real success. Again, there hasn't been a really high diagnostic yield, there have been very few new diagnoses, but the support provided to the families who are in contact with that clinic, in terms of helping them access better joined up care both from the NHS and from services more widely, has been brilliant. And we're currently working with NHS England in the UK, who are exploring an opportunity to commission two SWAN clinics in England. So, that trying to kind of improve services, and then the third aspect of that is just working generally with the new genomic medicine service alliances as they emerge across England, to try and make sure they are thinking through what support they will need to continue providing to families who've gone for whole genome sequencing in future, not through a research project like 100,000 Genomes, but just through routine clinical practice and routine clinical diagnostics, what support will they need to provide for families who go through that process and don't get an answer. And that won't change the support they will need from the NHS. It will just mean that perhaps that clinic needs to play a more active role in helping them access those services. So, all of that kind of campaigning to have better services for family who have an undiagnosed genetic condition continues as well. Lisa: So, I think one of the things really just to finish off today, is of course looking at the future. Considering advancements in technology, would you say that future reanalysis of the 100,000 Genome Project is going to yield additional insights? Celine, can I ask you to comment on that? Celine: Yes, absolutely. As we understand more about the role and function of different genes, and as new genes are added to the panels, we will definitely be able to provide a diagnosis for more parents and more families. But I think we don't yet necessarily know exactly what that reanalysis will look like, and it's not really clear yet how this will work in practice. Lisa: And Louise, would you have anything else to add to that at all really? Louise: No, I think it is just that hope for the future and kind of help for today. I think the NHS needs to be equally clear about, you know, there's some amazing investment by the UK government in genomic research, and that's brilliant and we want that to continue, but equally we want the investment to be taking place into routine clinical services and diagnostic services, so that we can talk to people both about the hope of potentially getting a diagnosis in future, but making sure that the help continues to be available for as long as they don't have a diagnosis, and that help for families who don't have a diagnosis is going to be just as important. And what we try to ask for is both real clarity around what the NHS can provide, and really clear signposting to organisations like SWAN for families that continue to not have a diagnosis. And again, just to give an equal shout out to Unique, who are able to support families who have an ultrarare diagnosis, where perhaps they're the only person in the country with that particular diagnosis, or one of a handful of families around the world. Signposting to that peer to peer support will continue to be a really important part of the process as well, so that families can help one another, learn from one another, and just give each other support that they are kind of sharing that same journey and walking alongside one another on that journey as it continues. Lisa: And bringing this podcast to a close, can I just ask you really, any final thoughts, anything that you would sum up from your experience of researching the no primary findings and where we now are today? Celine: I think the main thing for me is just to sort of make it clear to parents that a diagnosis isn't necessarily a magic wand, even though it is obviously very important to a lot of parents. But that even without a diagnosis, we still have the opportunity to manage patients' symptoms, and often a diagnosis doesn't make a substantial difference, because parents are sometimes left with a lot of uncertainties and a lot of unanswered questions. So I think, and as Louise and Jana have said before, it's really sort of on focusing what we do know, and thinking about what we can offer and what support we can provide to parents and families even without a diagnosis. Lisa: Thank you very much to our guests today, Jana Gurasashvili, Celine Lewis and Louise Fish, for joining me as we discussed the impact of a no primary findings result. If you'd like to hear more like this then please subscribe to the G Word on your favourite podcast app. Thank you for listening. I've been your host, Lisa Beaton. This podcast was edited by Mark Kendrick at Ventoux Digital, and produced by Naimah Callachand.    

This podcast episode delves into a powerful story of resilience and overcoming mental health challenges. Guest Todd Rennebohm shares his life-changing experience of a 911 call that not only saved his life but also opened up important conversations about mental health and addiction. Throughout the episode, Todd discusses his journey as a mental health advocate, a survivor of suicide attempts, and his recovery from addiction. From being diagnosed with chronic anxiety at a young age to battling alcohol and substance abuse, Todd's story sheds light on the connection between mental health and substance use. Todd emphasizes the importance of self-advocacy and seeking help within the flawed healthcare system. The episode also touches on Todd's book, which tackles the topic of mental health through a child's perspective, aiming to start conversations and normalize discussions surrounding mental health in families. ..................................................................................... Listen to Todd's podcast Bunny Hugs & Mental Health on Apple podcast or Spotify Follow Todd on Instagram @bunnyhugspodcast .................................................................................... RISING STRONG LINKS: Get new episode notifications: bit.ly/risingstrongupdates Follow us on Instagram: @risingstrongpodcast Facebook page - send your reviews and comments via the 'comment' button here: www.facebook.com/risingstrongpodcast WIN SWAG: · Email a screenshot of your 5-star review for a chance to win some Rising Strong swag! Lisa@LisaKBoehm.com Remember to follow and subscribe so you never miss an episode ..................................................................................... TRANSCRIPT: host/Lisa: In today's episode, we unravel the powerful story of a lifechanging 911 call that not only saved a life, but also opened up a conversation about mental health and addiction. Welcome to the Rising Strong podcast. I'm your host, Lisa, and today's guest is going to inspire you in so many ways. Tod and I met almost exactly one year ago at a mental health event where he openly shared his journey from the stage. He's a mental health advocate, suicide attempt, survivor in recovery from addiction, speaker, author and host of Bunny hugs and mental health. Welcome to the show, Todd. Todd Thank you. It's lovely to see you again. And at that exact same event a year ago this year, you were speaking at it. And so that was very exciting. Lisa: Right? It seems like we're like in a pinball game or something where we keep literally bumping into each other at these mental health events. So clearly, I really believe in the universe. When you meet people, it's for a reason. Todd: It's a reason. A season or a lifetime, I've been. Lisa: Told yes, or a lesson somewhere in there, I have a few lesson people. Todd: Well, yeah, that too. Yeah, sure. Right. Lisa So we're having this chat because you've had a long journey with mental health. How long does that go back and when did things start? Todd: Oh, boy. This could be a three hour episode if we wanted it to be, but it actually started in grade five. I was diagnosed with a stomach ulcer. When you're grade five, most kids don't have stomach issues that like 80 year old ceos of billion dollar companies have because they have so much anxiety and pressure and worry. But that is an ailment that kind of runs in my family. My grandfather had it and my mom has issues, so nobody thought anything of it. So they treated me for the physical part of it, but nobody really questioned why was there anxiety? Why does he worry so much? And that was the thing. Nobody called it anxiety when I was grade five. So I'm 46 years old, so that was almost 40 years ago. So, yeah, the word anxiety wasn't really a thing. It was more like, oh, you worry too much, or my mom would call it a nervous stomach. So the nervous boy love. It's called chronic anxiety, actually. So that's kind of when it started. And then in high school, I kind of was introduced to alcohol. Being in a small town mean, I say that, but I mean, kids drink everywhere. But that was very much the culture when I was that age in small town Saskatchewan. And a lot of my anxiety kind of, I don't know, it didn't go away, but I didn't worry about every little thing like I used to. And then, yeah, out of high know, drinking turned into more and more. And there's a lot of addiction to my family, a lot of anger issues with the men. So a lot of my anxiety and depression eventually turned into anger. I was bouncing around from job to job. It's so weird. I've been discussing this lately, how life can be very polarizing at all times. So it's like some of these moments, I look back and it's like, that was the darkest time of my life. But then I'm also like, oh, but I had so much fun, too. So it's like you can be miserable and happy at the same time, and it's hard to wrap your head around how that's possible. But I don't know if it's like different frequencies, so they're not actually overlapping, they're actually just happening at the same time or something. Anyway, yeah, I used to play in bands and stuff, and it was like, I mean, talk about touring with a band and stuff. It is so much fun, but also so anxiety inducing. And you're drinking all the time and you're calling home and the girlfriend's crying and upset and missing you. And so it's like, yeah, it's very polarizing. So anyway, I had cool things like that going through my life, but also just everyday kind of schlub stuff. Band breaks up, and then you're doing just labor jobs for minimum wage. So then my anxiety depression stuff kind of turns more into the anger. And I think I'd rather feel depressed than angry. I can't stand that feeling. I'd wake up angry and go to work angry just because I felt unfulfilled or something, or not satisfied with life and the drop of a hat. I would just be throwing stuff and smashing stuff, and it's not a good look. I mean, I felt like a child having a temper tantrum. Like, I've seen family members do it, and every time I'm just like, oh, my God, this is so, one, scary for people, two, just annoying. You just want to shut up. And then there I am doing it, and it's like, oh, my God, I hate this. But eventually I started drinking and using marijuana constantly, and my issues came to a head. I had a suicide attempt. I tried going to the hospital once and was basically turned away, which is kind of a reason for when I started advocating, because I went to the ER and was turned away. So then, yeah, eventually stuff came to a head again and I ended up. I quit drinking, and that was huge for my anger and my depression. Still working through anxiety, then Covid hit and more job bouncing around. Then eventually I was diagnosed with ADHD about a year ago. And so this fall I was working with EMDR therapists to maybe work through some of my trauma stuff. It's basically lifelong, and there's always, anytime you peel off a layer, there's another layer there that you could definitely work on. And whether it's you use the same strategies or the same tools that you used before, or you need a different strategy like EMDR, or a different diagnosis, like ADHD, a different medication, or a different perspective when it comes to therapies or different modalities. I'm just trying to get through the day without letting these extreme polar feelings pull me one way or another and just keep the balance, really. It's a journey. Lisa: I have a question for you. I just want to circle back to something that you said. Todd: Definitely. Lisa: In your opinion, do you think that there is a connection between. I don't want to just say mental health, but let's say anxiety, just because that's something you're familiar with. Do you think that there's an association, a link, a parallel between substance use, whether it's alcohol or drugs, and anxiety? Todd: I do, of course, everybody's different, but when I worked, because I worked at the treatment center I went to after I quit drinking for a couple of years, and it was quite obvious that addiction is a comorbidity of not just anxiety, but like PTSD, bipolar, different personality disorders. And really an anxiety is just a symptom of a greater thing quite often, too. So, yeah, I do think that substance abuse and anxiety, not only do they link, but they are a very common comorbidity of a lot of other bigger issues, including trauma. And I mean, trauma is also a huge contributor to personality disorders and things. It actually drives me nuts a little bit that when we say mental health and addictions, I wish we could just get rid of the addictions part, because it is part of mental health. When I say mental health or mental illness, it includes addictions. Someday it would be nice to just drop that. But for people that maybe don't understand, I don't know, they're still separated for some reason. Lisa: Absolutely. I found we were talking about this earlier before I hit record. Even amongst our own stories, we are not just this one silo, this single aspect of mental health. I really see mental health myself, as a massive umbrella. And under that umbrella. There are a myriad of topics, including addictions, including grief, including so, so many things. But you're right, the more I learn, and I feel like there's so much still to be learned, that trauma. Trauma, my goodness. I think if we could all heal our traumas, we would probably be far better off. But unfortunately, we live in this symptom, fix the symptom kind of society, right? So we kind of have to pick at the layers, as you say. We kind of maybe get a handle on one layer, and lo and behold, there's another layer to deal with. So interesting. Todd: Sorry, I was going to say also, even with my ADHD, I feel like that's a huge contributor to my anxiety, depression, substance abuse, maybe not the cause. I do think it caused those things, but also other things also contributed to those things. So it's very nuanced. It's all very complicated. There's no one treatment, one pill, one disorder, one diagnosis that's going to fix everything. For me, anyway. I'm finding that I think I have ADHD, but I also think I do have chronic anxiety. On top of that, I also do think that DNA has something to do with it. And nature versus nurture, like you were saying before, you throw spaghetti at the wall and you try different modalities and tools and things, and hopefully you figure out what's going to help you with that particular, I don't know, symptom or whatever. You peel another layer off and you go, okay, that's better. Now moving on to the next one. Lisa Exactly. And I'm certainly not an expert with a bunch of letters behind my name, but I do know that because we are all complex human beings and we are all learning so much more that I think the key maybe is being open. Right? Maybe we don't know what it is that we need or that what's going to, quote unquote, work. I don't know that we can be fixed as human beings as much as people try to fix us, but to cope better or to deal with the situation, whatever it looks like for us. Todd: Or change a belief system within yourself, right? Lisa: A mindset shift, whatever you want to call it. But I think the key is being open and like you say, to keep trying the things, even though you might not think that it's your thing. Like EMDR, man. Game changer. Game changer. When I first read about what it was and what was entailed, I thought, this is insane. I come from a long history of working in the medical system. I'm research driven. I'm data focused. And that EMDR, just when I was reading about it, I thought, well, I'm not so sure about this, but it was one of the greatest things that I did for myself and I cannot say enough about it. Todd: And I tell people all the time, even if it's a placebo and it works. It worked. So who gives a ****? Yeah. Lisa: So tell us about a visit that you had that involved a 911 call. Todd: Well, I'm getting so old. It was like eight years ago. And then it's like someone's like, no, that was like twelve years ago. It's like, oh yeah, I guess you were kidding. So I'm not sure how long ago it was. It was quite a while ago. So this was really some of my darkest times. The year before, I had drove myself to the hospital in Regina, in the ER, asked for help. None was given. And so I felt, as a man in a small town prairie, it was embarrassing for me as a man to go look for help, for emotions. It was huge for me to go do that and then to be told to go home. And basically I was super embarrassed. So I was like, all right, well, I guess I just got to suck it up here. I guess I was already on meds and kind of seen a counselor, but still, it was embarrassing to me. So over the year, I was a bad father, I was a bad husband, I was a bad employee, I was a bad son, and I was using marijuana, drinking all the time I was at a job. I wasn't finding fulfillment in whether that was at the job itself or just because I was in that frame of mind. And things came to a head one day and I had a few drinks in me already. I wasn't like super drunk or anything. My wife said something that triggered me. I don't even remember what. I don't know if it's a psychotic episode, but it's like a dream. I don't remember. I had people fill in some of the blanks, like even years later. But my wife said something and I snapped and I started punching myself in the face. I started slamming my head on the table and it freaked her out. She grabbed our kids. They were little at the time. She went out the door. And while I was there by myself, apparently I just put my head through the wall and I was slamming it as hard as I could against appliances of things. I was convinced in my mind that I just had ruined my life. My wife and kids are gone forever. Over that year, I not just had suicidal ideation, I mean, I was obsessed about it every night before bed, I was pushing knives against my throat and against my wrists, and I was doing really reckless behaviors at work that was dangerous, not for other people, but for myself. When people ask if you had a plan, when doctors are assessing you, do you have a plan? Are you suicidal? Do you have a plan? It didn't matter where I was during my day. I had places I could do things to take my life, right? I worked at the PFRA, at the tree nursery in indian head, and was like, that's a great tree. Mental note. Tools in my shop, I was, like, at work, it was like, didn't matter where I was. I had a plan. So things really came to a head, and, yeah, I was basically slamming my head against stuff. And then my brother showed up. He was the one I had a couple beers with earlier, and my wife apparently went to his place and said, what the hell were you guys doing? Like, you have to go help Todd. He's freaking out. And I pulled out a knife because I'd been practicing for a year, and this was it. And he tried to stop me, and I swung the knife at him, and then he jumped on top of me. He's a big dude. Got on top me and pinned me down. And apparently my sister was there too, and she's, like, trying to get me to smoke weed. To calm down, someone called the ambulance or called 911, and next thing I know, there's three or four police officers in my dining room. They don't know what the hell is going on. They see a knife on the floor. They see a big guy on top of another guy, and all hell breaks loose. Eventually, I'm screaming at them to shoot me. I'm begging them to kill me. I grab one of their guns. I didn't get it out of the holster, but I got my hand on one of their guns. And then things really escalated, and I had parts of my body that I didn't know had feelings that were hurting, because police are very good at detaining people, let's put it that way. And, yeah, they tied me up, and I just remember crying. Not sobbing. I mean, like, scream crying, begging them to shoot me. And I remember saying, like, you're hurting me. I'm tired of hurting. Stop hurting me. I'm tired of hurting. Kill me. Shoot me. But anyway, they detained me and got me in their vehicle, and they took me to my local hospital here in needing head, which then they put me in an ambulance and took me to Regina, to the general hospital, and they finally admitted me into the hospital there. But I remember pulling up. It was almost a year to the day that I tried going to the hospital on my own, and I thought, holy ****, this is what it took to get into the hospital this time, I'm handcuffed to a gurney, strapped to a gurney in an ambulance with two police officers on either side of me. But anyway, I got there. I spent a couple of weeks there, and, I mean, I could write a whole tv series just about the two weeks being in there. And I learned something while I was in there. I learned that you don't really get help in the hospital necessarily. It was a safe place for me to be to chill out for a couple of weeks till I was, like, got my wits about me again. And it did speed up the process to start seeing a psychiatrist because I was on, like, a year long waitlist. And once I got there, it was like, instantly I pushed up the waitlist. So there was that. And it was the beginning, I guess, of my healing process, even though it still took probably five years of really dark moments. There were a couple of kind of rock bottom moments after that, but that was kind of the major one that kind of got the ball rolling a bit. So that was scary. Lisa: Hey, rising strong listeners. If you've been enjoying the inspiring interviews on the podcast, we'd love your support to help us reach more listeners and hopefully gain some sponsorship. To do that, please, like, follow and subscribe wherever you listen to podcast. And here's a little extra incentive. Leave us a five star review, and you'll be entered to win some cool, rising strong swag. Your support means the world to me. Now back to the show. Well, what breaks my heart the most listening to that? Is that something, a situation so extreme is what it took for you to get some attention. Medical, professional, whatever. All the attention. Todd: Yeah. Lisa: How many people suffer in silence? Some people don't have these major breakdowns. That's terrifying that our system is so broken that it takes that much to finally get attention. And then what did your journey after that look like? Were you able to access a psychiatrist or a counselor? Did it tell us what that looked? Todd: Well, actually, while I was in there twice, aa came to my hospital room, and I was like, I shooed them away because I was like, well, I'm crazy depressed. I'm not an alcoholic. I have enough issues. I don't need to join a cult. I shoot them away. In the next few years, I was not thriving. Let's opposite. I was surviving, not thriving, let's put it that way. I was just going through the motions of my day to day. I kind of quit drinking on my own for a little bit, but I really upped my marijuana use because as a stoner, it's like, it's good for you, man. It helps my anxiety, bro. I know different now, but it drives me nuts when I hear people say that. It's not even addicting, man. And then I run out of weed and I have a nervous breakdown 4 hours later. It's my anxiety. Well, yeah, I wonder why I have anxiety. Anyway, I think it was a couple of years later. I did have another stint in the hospital. About a year after that, I had a kind of a bad weekend. It was only a couple of nights I spent in there. I'm doing my best. I'm self employed. Like I said. Eventually I start drinking again. I'm drinking, I'm smoking weed every day. And then I see in the newspaper that the health region or health district or whatever the hell it was called back then, they were laying off. I think it was like 20 some people from the general hospital, all from the psych ward, and I think it was something like 17 of them were psych nurses. And I thought, holy ****, like, I was in there. I know how I've seen how it operates, and I've seen how often security is called. At one point, security was called on me, and I ended up spending the night locked in a room with no bed. They just threw a mattress on the floor, and there was like, cameras. And I was like, security does not de escalate things like the psych nurses are trained. So anyway, I read this. I was like, how is this possible? And once in a while, anger, it's a good motivator. And I was so ****** off. Not like emotionally dysregulated anger. I was like, focused anger. I was like, this is bullshit. So I wrote, I don't know, a letter or blog. I don't know what I was doing. I just let my feelings out on. Well, it's not paper. It was on a keyboard. And I went through my. I basically told my story up to that point and how I thought this is all bs and all this stuff. And I talked about my suicide attempt, which I'd never really done publicly, especially in a small town. And I don't even remember doing this, but I sent it to a bunch of different media outlets and I posted it on facebook and stuff, and it blew up. It kind of went like, I don't know how many tens of thousands of times that letter got shared. I saw it on web pages, like in the states and stuff. Even. I'm like, what is going on? And the next day, it was like all the news outlets from Regina came out to indian head to interview me and talk to me about the stuff. So then I was kind of thrown into this advocacy role that I never thought I'd ever be doing. So then I felt like there was extra pressure on me. Now it's like, oh, okay, I've got people's attention, attention now, so let's keep this ball rolling and make some changes and make a difference. And within two months of having that pressure on me, not that other people were doing it, but my own pressure, I was in the hospital again, and I woke my wife up extremely intoxicated, told her I was going to harm myself and whatever. And that night, I wrote something on my computer. I considered it kind of a suicide note, but it wasn't really a suicide note. But again, a moment of clarity. I woke my wife up. Don't remember. I was so drunk. And that was the last night I drank, actually. I went to the small town hospital here in indian head, and I had an amazing doctor in town at the time, and he basically convinced me to go to treatment and start going to aa and stuff. And so I detoxed in the hospital here for a few weeks. And that really started. Well, actually. Okay, no, the other one started my journey. This was kind of mid journey now, but quitting drinking and quitting the marijuana and all that stuff, that was a huge thing. To this day, I have people reach out to me about a loved one they have, or even about themselves, and they're like, they're drinking, they're using, they're also depressed and all this stuff. And what do we treat first? The depression or the addiction? Again, no two people are the same for me. I had to get rid of that addiction before I could start healing about the anxiety and the depression and what was causing the depression and anxiety. That was the brown skin of the onion. I couldn't even get to layers until that big Chunk came off first. I'm assuming most people are like that, but again, everybody's different. Lisa Yeah. I think that is not a road that I have traveled, however, being on the sidelines of observing people in my life, I would say, from what I have observed, purely that I would concur with that. And so powerful. And it must be so difficult for loved ones spouses. May I ask how your marriage got through these years? I mean, that had to have been a massive strain. Todd: Oh, yeah. There was more than once where I wasn't sure we were going to make it. And I don't want to get too personal, but like I said, I was a bad husband. I was a bad father, I was a bad son. I was doing things that were against my own moral code. And then once you have some moments of clarity, you're like, what am I doing? This is not me. So she was amazing. My wife was amazing. After the first big stay at the hospital, I continued to see my psychiatrist and a counselor regularly. My wife knew somehow she's just a very intelligently, emotionally intelligent person. She knew that we couldn't work as a couple until she dealt with some stuff, too. So whatever I was going through kind of triggered some stuff in her. So she saw someone separately to deal with issues, traumas, and things she was dealing with, and then we would see someone together. So this was all happening at the same time. I was seeing my own person, she was seeing her own person. And then on separate days, we would see someone as a couple. And I really do feel like we got married young, like, we've been together for over 20 years, and I really do feel like we grew up together, even though we did know each other as children. We met when I was, like, 20 and she was 19 or something, but we really grew up together going through that. And then the next time when I was detoxing in the hospital and I quit drinking that night, it was shortly after that that I kind of wanted to leave the hospital and come home. And she said, like, I can't watch you do this to yourself anymore. I love you too much, and I just can't watch anymore. And she was like, if you are coming home, just come home to get your things, because I can't do this anymore. And I thought, oh, ****, okay, this is affecting people more than I thought. So I ended up staying at the hospital and detoxing and going through the whole thing the second time, it wasn't like she was mad or anything. I mean, I'm sure she was mad, but, yeah, it was just too. She was protecting herself and the kids. She's like, we can't do this anymore. I can't watch you do this anymore. And the kids are getting affected by it, and they're going to have traumas and stuff. Lisa: Do you think that hard line in the sand from her? Do you think that gave you a little nudge? A big nudge, maybe? Yeah. Todd: In addiction treatment, they're like, you're not doing this for other people. You're doing this for yourself. And it was kind of an ultimatum in a way, but also I was ready. I was so sick of it and I was just too scared. I was too scared to do it on my own. I didn't know how to do it. I was terrified. I tried for so many attempts to quit and to heal and it was too scary. So I'd quit. So generally, I don't think ultimatums work unless the other person is ready. Like I was ready. I just needed that nudge. And I tell people all the time too, that I think she had the harder end of the deal then. I've had people say, no, you can't compare pain, you can't compare traumas, and you can't compare, which is true. But as a parent now, it's like if my kids were going through it or my wife was going through the things I was going through, I don't know if I'd be able to stick around or just the sleepless nights, the absolute helplessness that she must have felt. God, I can only imagine how scary. Lisa Well, I'm glad that the two of you were able to work it through. I don't know the statistics, but marriage is hard enough on a good day to have extra stressors on it and so on and so forth. I mean, you clearly worked as a team, so I'm really glad to hear that. For anybody who might be listening, who is maybe at their lowest point struggling with either many of the aspects of mental health or addictions, what would be your advice to them? Todd: Oh man, there's so many things because there's so many levels to it. For one, keep advocating for yourself because the system does suck. And even when you're doing what your doctor's orders and you think things are going well, want more, demand more, get certain dates, whatever, like demand more. Because I guarantee you, I feel bad saying this because everyone I've ever met that works in addictions and mental health and in the health authorities, they're all sweet, lovely people, but the system, it's the system that sucks. And they know that. They even know that. So nothing against anyone that works in this field. It's just you have to demand more because the system will probably fail you at some point if you don't demand more. And I've seen it time and time again, and as far as we've come from my first suicide attempt to now, which has been about twelve years, it was only a year ago or a year and a half ago where that young guy was again told to leave the hospital in an hour later, he's found swim floating in the lake. So it's still happening. It's still not perfect. I know that there'll always be a certain percentage of people that get lost, but it's still very frustrating. And the other thing is, no one's going to do it for you. No pill, no therapist is going to fix you. You have to do the work. And that's the hardest part, is taking that first step to actually start doing the work. It took my wife saying, leave, I can't be around you anymore, to really start doing the work. I had seen a counselor for probably two or three years. Off and on. I wasn't doing anything. Like, I would go to the counselor session, I'd come home and not do anything to ask me to do. I'd be taking the pills and then be going like, why aren't they fixing me? Why haven't you cured me yet? And it's hard. It's simple. What you have to do is simple, but it's hard. It's not easy. It's a very simple plan on paper, but executing it is extremely difficult. It's painful, it's terrible. You think of having a broken leg, like the trauma of the broken leg, you don't even feel it at the time. It's the healing, it's the pain. That journey of healing sucks. And then it gets itchy under the cast and there's all types of things, and then you have to go through rehabilitation and all this stuff, like healing sucks, but if you don't do the work, you're just going to get gangrene and who knows what. It's kind of a weird analogy, I guess, but it works. So, yeah, it takes a lot of courage to heal, and unfortunately, a lot of people either don't get that nudge or they never, or something tragic happens before they're able to get into the mindset of doing the work. Lisa: I think you nailed it. There's no fairy godmother that's going to show up. No one is coming to save your butt. We've got to do the work ourselves. And you're absolutely right. It's simple, but far from easy. So one of the things I like to ask my guests on the podcast is what the word resilient means to you. Todd: I just used this word the other day, and I don't know if I've ever really used this word to describe myself or anyone other than Europe after World War II or something, but I use it the other day in a text to my know, life is still hard, whether it's financial or we were watching loved ones being sick. And like you said, even on a good day, marriages can be hard. So to me, resilience. When I think of the word resilience, I think of my wife and I, and I think of our family. And I said, we've been resilient in the past, and we're going to be resilient still, and we're going to get through this patch of it's not a relationship thing, but there's people around us that are suffering financially and kids are graduating, so we're borderline empty, nesting in a few months. So it's just a very transitional period in our lives right now for not just my wife and I, but for other people in our family. So when I think of resilience, I think of my wife and I, and I've never used that word to describe me or our relationship before. So it's kind of funny you use that word. You asked me about that today. Lisa: Well, when I started the podcast, and I knew I wanted to focus on mental health, but I knew that I also wanted to focus on people like you who really are resilient. And it's just really interesting to me because I do ask every single guest that question. Their answers are all varied, right? Because we're all unique snowflakes, but they're all the same at the same time. And I just find it so interesting. And I think it's your story that makes you resilient, right? I did a talk just a couple of weeks ago, and I said, unfortunately, we can't even talk about resilience until we talk about adversity, right? Because when we're sitting on a beach eating cupcakes all day long and the unicorns are running by, we're not growing, right? We're not becoming resilient. That's almost the opposite of resilience. So unfortunately, it does take adversity to get resilience. And like you are, you are that person. And I am so proud of you, Todd, so proud of you for the work that you've done, for the advocacy work that you continue to do. We didn't even get to your book. You've written a children's book, which I just think is just such a gift. It's such a hard topic to talk about. Yes, sometimes, daddy Christ, tell us just real quickly about your book and who it's for and where people can get a hold of it. Todd: Well, actually, the night I quit drinking and I said, I went to my computer and typed up a suicide note. It was actually the first draft of this book. So the night I quit drinking was the first draft of this book, and it was very different. It was the first draft, but it's basically the perspective of a kid watching his father go through depression, anxiety, and stuff. So the father never actually says anything in the book. It's always a conversation with the kid and the mother and the mother explaining to him that it's like having a stomachache. You're not well, so you have to get help. Sometimes you need rest. Sometimes you need medicine. Sometimes you have to go to the hospital. For whatever reason. I have a hard time tooting my own horn. But it's one of the things I'm very proud of, is that book. I think I've walked that fine line of making it realistic, but also not scary for kids. It's just this is what it's like. And kids do tend to understand physical things, so they can apply that to their emotions and to their mental health. And, yeah, it's gotten really great feedback from parents and from professionals. So, yeah, I'm really proud of it. lisa: Well, I think to me, the most important part is that it opens the door for conversation. Right. I mean, I am no parenting expert, but I do know that our kids don't necessarily learn from one conversation. Right. It's that constant revisiting topics. And a book for a small child is just a brilliant way to ease into it, open the door, make this a normalized part of conversations. Todd: Right, exactly. Lisa: It's very brilliant. And I'm, again, just so grateful that you were able to find the space and the heart space, really, to write that. So if people want to get a hold of your book, is it on Amazon? Todd Yeah, it. Yeah, if you go on Amazon ca. Or it's on some other websites and stuff, too. Yeah. Sometimes daddy cries. I wanted to add real quick that something I didn't expect with the book was opening up that conversation with the mother and the father, because probably 99% of the people that bought the book are females. So it's the mother or it's the mother of a child whose husband is suffering. Because for whatever reason, men. I don't know what it is. I talk about mental health all the time, and it's like 80% or 85% of my audience is female. And so it's like, I think men don't even know it's the problem because they either are drinking it away or getting angry. They don't realize their anger is actually depression or anxiety. Or whatever, so they don't even realize they're suffering anyway. That was a very interesting thing with the book, was finding that. Lisa: Absolutely. And maybe we'll come back and we'll do another podcast another time. But I think you critters, you males are absolute masters at a word I can never say. Compartmentalization, it's a big word and you just are able to put it somewhere. Push it down. I mean, not effectively. You don't get bonus points for doing that. But it's something that I think men do do, and I read something or heard something that we simple, right? We get better at what we do. So the more we push down, the better we get at pushing it down. The more we talk about it, the better we get at talking about it. So you know what? You are doing this world so much good by being a male voice speaking to mental health. And I know that eventually things will change and more men will know, opening up to this whole concept of doing the work. So I cannot thank you enough Todd for being here today, being vulnerable, sharing your story in such a raw and real way. Friends, make sure to check out Todd's podcast called Bunny Hugs and mental health. And make sure to follow him on Instagram at Bunny Hugs podcast. Stay well and be resilient and we'll catch you next time.

In this podcast episode, guest Laura Lawrence shares her powerful journey of finding purpose within pain. Through heartbreak and betrayal, she has experienced profound personal growth and resilience. Laura, an author, speaker, educator, and mental health advocate, opens up about enduring a heartbreaking and life-altering breakup. From the moment she heard the words 'I don't love you anymore,' she navigated a rollercoaster of emotions and started over as a single mother. Despite the overwhelming challenges, she recognized the need for professional support and sought help for herself and her children. Through alternative modalities like Body Talk, she was able to release stored emotions and heal her mind, body, and spirit. Laura's dedication to mental health led her to become a mental health advocate for youth. Her passion for working with young people inspired her to establish the nonprofit organization Youth Matter Canada, empowering thousands of kids to speak up about their mental health. Through her book 'Behind Closed Doors' and upcoming podcast, Laura continues to share her story and empower others to overcome adversity and embrace resilience. Laura's Links: www.lauralawrence.ca/shop (link to purchase book) www.instagram.com/lauralawrence.author (IG account) .................................................................. Rising Strong LINKS: FREE resource: Create More ME Time: bit.ly/metimeresource Get all the podcast updates and notifications of new episodes: bit.ly/risingstrongupdates Support this podcast by purchasing a Calming Journal: bit.ly/calmingjournals Follow us on Instagram: @risingstrongpodcast Facebook page: send your a screenshot of your podcast reviews via the 'comment' button here: @Risingstrongpodcast WIN SWAG: Screenshot your 5-star review for a chance to win some Rising Strong swag! then send it to Lisa@LisaKBoehm.com Remember to follow and subscribe so you never miss an episode .................................................................. TRANSCRIPT: HOST/Lisa: In the journey through heartbreak and betrayal, many find themselves lost in the chaos of emotions. How is it that some people find the purpose within the pain and experience profound personal growth? Today's guest, Laura Lawrence, is going to tell you exactly that. Laura is an author, speaker, educator, and mental health advocate who has shared the stage with powerful female voices like Dr. Jody Carrington and Jess Tatu. Hi, I'm Lisa, and this is Rising strong mental health and resilience. On this podcast, we dive into different kinds of adversity and the resilience required to rise above. Make sure to follow or subscribe so you don't miss a single episode. Now, let's get started. All right. Today I have Laura Lawrence in studio with me. I met Laura about a year and a half ago, and I was in awe of her inner strength and confidence the moment I met her. She has weathered some storms that some of you will relate to, and her resilience is inspiring. Welcome to the show, Laura. Laura: Thank you for having me, and thank you for those kind words, Host/Lisa: all truths. Laura, you have endured a heartbreaking and life altering breakup. Tell us about the events that unfolded when you heard the words, I don't love you anymore. Laura: Wow. Well, gosh, so many events unfolded after those words, and at the time, it was absolutely the hardest thing I had ever had to navigate in my life. There were so many emotions, so many layers to it, and starting over in life at the age of 32 with two children under the age of six was absolutely terrifying. But I'll take you back a little bit and tell you kind of where it all began. So I met my ex husband when we were 16 years old. We were high school sweethearts. We got married when I was 22. And in our 17 year journey together, we walked side by side through so many things. We had two children together. We grieved the loss of a child through a miscarriage together. We grieved the loss of loved ones together. We embarked on new career paths, new journeys. But it was about at the ten year marriage mark that we found ourselves in the depths of conflict that really had started many years prior. Both of us were carrying our own inner child wounds, over, committed to work, chaotic schedules, stresses of life work, raising children, really all the things that two people in a relationship or a marriage face. And we were facing them with two different mindsets, two different belief systems, two different sets of upbringing in our families. But it was after one fateful argument that we had that was the tipping point. It was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. I would say he was emotionally depleted, and so was I. But he was done. Like, actually done. So from that night of that argument to today, almost, oh, gosh, twelve years later, there has always been four sides to this multilayered love story and separation story. There's my side, there's his. Of course, there's our children's side and the outside world, who always had their view from what I like to call the cheap seats. Host/Lisa: Wow, that's really interesting. You always hear there's two sides to every story, which I agree with. I'd never thought about those other two dimensions that you mentioned. Yeah, that's really powerful. And did you find that the cheap seats were giving you some difficult times as well, on top of everything else that you were dealing with? Laura: Oh, yes, they certainly were. It was a very public and painful separation divorce. It's interesting. Just a couple of weeks ago, I heard yet another rumor, honestly, a decade later. So, yeah, living in a small community, being in the public eye, as at the time, I was a teacher, an educator in the community. We lived a block from the school. We ran a business together. We were often in the public's eye through community service organizations. So it was definitely a journey. Host/Lisa: How did this all make you feel? Laura: It was gutting. It was heart wrenching. There were so many days and nights where I felt hopeless. It felt like my entire world and the ideals that I and many of us cling on to since we're children, imagining what a marriage would look like and feel like I mean, all of it came crashing down at once. And now when I say that, I say that kind of tongue in cheek because of course, it didn't all come crashing down in a day. It was years in the making. But it felt like a shattered ceiling, a crumbling floor. There's so many ways I could describe it, and I often describe that time as if it felt similar to falling into a deep, dark well and that I could see the light just out of the distance of the top of the well. But it was cold, it was lonely, it was dark. Every time I tried to kind of clamor up the sides of the well, I would fall back down again. And I, to that point, had never experienced depression. It was even hard for me to understand seeing loved ones or friends go through depression because I just had never been there in my own mind and body. But if you've ever been through a breakup or a separation or divorce, you know very well that gut punching feeling of hearing somebody tell you that they're done or they just don't love you anymore, or that's it, there's really no going back from that moment. Host/Lisa: Do you think it was harder for you to navigate the path forward, or do you think it was harder for you to watch your children navigate the path forward? Laura: Wow, that's an interesting question. I would say that both were very difficult in different ways where, I mean, I definitely felt helpless. There were things that were within my control that I could have done leading up to that point and then also in trying to find resolution. But for children who are involved in separation and divorce, they really are helpless. They really are the collateral damage, so to speak. And I wanted to ensure that as much as I could have the power over ensuring that my children didn't feel like collateral damage, it's almost inevitable, just with all of the layers that kind of ensue following a separation and divorce. Host/Lisa: Did you seek professional support for yourself or for yourself and your children? Laura: Yeah, I mean, 100%. I know. I think when you had sent me the show notes, you had asked, how did this affect your mental health? And when I was thinking about it, the very first thing that came to my mind was the easier question would be, like, how didn't it affect my mental health? It affected absolutely every aspect of my wellness. I could not sleep. I could not eat. I could not focus or concentrate at work. I cried for hours and hours daily. I fixated became obsessed with trying to solve it, work it out, make it work. I was anxious. I was depressed. And although I never made a formal plan to take my life and I don't think I've ever publicly spoken about this as a speaker and an author, I'm not even sure this is in my book. Actually, I'm pretty sure it isn't. But I do remember one evening that I was driving home late and the thought had crossed my mind what would happen if I just allowed my car to slip across the solid yellow line? And it was just for a fraction of a minute that that thought was there. But I clearly remember that. And I couldn't show up as my best self for my children or my students. I really was an empty shell. I lost 30 pounds so quickly, many people asked and wondered if I was sick. There were even questions whether I had a terminal illness because I had to hide so much for quite a few months, as we hadn't told our children or our families for a while. And the act of hiding the truth really took its toll, I think, not on me, but on all of us. I mean, on my ex husband as well, and on the children. So absolutely I needed to seek professional help. And this part I write extensively about in my book. It started with an intervention weekend. And that's how it goes for many of us, especially when we're in the depths of that well of depression and we really can't see the light at all, it often takes somebody in our inner circle, our loved ones, who reach down and pull us up or pull us out. And I'm very thankful to two very good friends who are concerned, deeply concerned for me. And so they had planned an intervention weekend. It was that weekend that I was introduced to the psychologist who would become like a grandmother to me later and who would stand beside me in this dance of healing. Over the next decade, I was introduced to two very powerful alternative modalities called Reiki and Body Talk during that weekend, and I sought medical help with my doctor, was prescribed medications to help with my sleep and help with my anxiety. So it was like full force after that intervention weekend and kind of throwing all the tools that I could at trying to rebuild so many things that felt broken. Host/Lisa; Now, I know you fairly well, and I also know you to be a very strong woman. And I think anybody who's been through difficult times ultimately knows that the work comes from us. I absolutely think that a therapist, a counselor, is so important when you're going through difficult times, but ultimately that work has to come from within us. Do you remember a turning point when you kind of pulled up your bootstraps and really thought, okay, what do I have to do now to take myself forward and my kids forward? Or was it very evolutionary for you? Laura: No, I mean, I knew that right from the beginning, of course, as I mentioned that. And anybody listening to this, who's ever been any type of conflict in a relationship or a marriage knows that the tension, the conflict builds. And often two people are very different. They have different belief systems, they different subconscious programming. They solve problems differently, they love differently, they communicate differently. And so finding that dance with a partner and finding what works for you and what works for them, it's a tumultuous dance. And I remember taking so much responsibility for so many things and being really hard on myself about how I made so many mistakes or I could have done this better, or I could have done this different. And when it was time for my healing journey, I just knew there was nobody else that was going to do it except for me. And I hadn't been studying any alternative modalities at that point yet, but I had been doing a lot of reading in Conscious Living and Consciousness, and I had been reading books by authors like Deepak Chopra. It's very interesting. Looking back now, it was almost as if my subconscious was preparing me or my psyche was preparing me for what was to come. And then, of course, the path that it led me down, and exploring more of the complementary alternative methods of healing, I absolutely then learned the power of healing yourself and working on that which you can control and the only thing you control which is yourself. Host/Lisa: So true. So how has Body Talk helped you on your journey? Laura: As I mentioned, it was one of those modalities that I was introduced to in that intervention weekend. I had never heard of it before, which is the story that most people will say when it crosses their path. I didn't know what it was. I had no idea what to expect. And I remember after I had that first session on that intervention weekend, I was not impressed, I was not enthused. I thought, I don't know what that was. Didn't really work for me, but cool, thanks. Turns out it kept coming back into my life. And I think that the things that are meant for us always do. They always keep doorknocking. Right? And it turned out to be life changing. The most powerful transformations in my mind, my body and my spirit were all because of this amazing modality. And I would say so for many of my family members as well who have experienced it, including my own children. Like I said after my first session, I was so skeptical and I would even say that didn't work. But I kept being called back to it. And what I tell people about Body Talk is you don't find it, it finds you. That was really cool that it just kept coming back into my awareness. And what it allowed me to do was explore how deeply I was attached to belief systems that were formed very early, before I even knew, in my subconscious between zero to seven, in my own experiences with my family and how I was parented and all the things that happen in that core formation period between age zero to seven. And I realized how so many of those belief systems that I would attach to were wreaking havoc not just in my mental wellness, but really trickling down into the physical manifestation of pain and illness in my body. Body Talk allowed me to release stored emotion from years of experiences and conflict that I was carrying, whether it be inner conflict or conflict that I had had with people in my past or family members in my past. It really was life changing. I just felt like it was the next thing for me to do. It was the next step. It was really what I needed to explore for my full path of healing. So when I left the teaching profession, I began to study Body Talk and I became a certified practitioner and I took all of my advanced classes and I started a business in a community where there were no Body Talk practitioners. Nobody had ever heard of it. I am so grateful for every client who's trusted me sitting beside them and walking beside them in their healing journey. It has been not only healing for them, but also for myself. Host/Lisa: I know we've had this conversation before, but isn't it interesting how when we can get to that space where we can help other people with their healing, that we also benefit from the healing that comes from that work? Laura: Yeah, it's a two way street. It's very reciprocal in nature and forever. As long as I'm living, I will practice Body Talk in some aspect. So let's talk a little bit about the work that you do as a mental health advocate for our youth. Yeah, that's something that I just have always been really passionate about working with youth. So I'm the oldest grandchild on both sides, and I've always been surrounded by kids and always the oldest one in the group. I've been drawn to working with youth since I was a child. I had a vision of becoming a doctor when I was in my last few years of high school, and I changed lanes at the last minute and became a teacher. So I went into the College of Education at the University of Saskatchewan and finished my degree as a high school science teacher. I spent over 15 years in a rural school setting teaching high school sciences and biology and chemistry. I was a coach. I was a mentor. I worked with kids outside of the classroom for many, many hours. I really loved my job and the kids I got to work with, and I had a front row seat, seeing many youth struggle with their own mental health. And this was again, I've been out of the classroom for ten years. Even ten years ago, we did not talk about mental health the way we do now. And so often, kids struggled in silence. But I always had that innate kind of intuitive gut feeling when a kid didn't look okay or when I noticed something that had changed in their demeanor or their attitude or their motivation or their behavior. After certifying as a Body Talk practitioner, after I'd left the classroom, I began creating Mindfulness in the Classroom workshops and professional development opportunities for schools and students, and found myself being hired back into schools, into classrooms, but from a different lens. And I created Mindfulness for Kids camps and workshops that I hosted in my local area. I just absolutely love engaging in youth that way. And then in 2019, I had this wild and crazy idea one day while taking a road trip with my husband, that I thought it would be just so incredible to host a mental health conference day for kids. I had been to so many conferences in my professional career, and they always motivated me and uplifted me and just gave me that extra spark that I needed. And I thought, how cool would that be to do for kids? And that was the beginning of starting my nonprofit organization, youth Matter Canada. And thanks to the help of many passionate individuals in my volunteer team working with Youth Matter, we have been able to help thousands of kids all across the province of Saskatchewan and beyond reach out and speak up for their mental health. Host/Lisa: So important. I think every year that goes by, we're seeing more and more of a crisis, and what a better place to start than with our youth? I love that. Laura: Yeah, I think it's the only place to start, really, for me. It's all I know to do is to help the youth because they're our future. I guess when I say the only place to start, it doesn't mean that we write the rest of us off who are midlife. But I think that when we're taking a real serious look on how we're going to change our approach, we need to start looking at how we spend time with engaging youth in conversations about mental wellness. Host/Lisa: What an incredible gift to give kids all these tools and coping skills that they can use all through life. Laura: Yeah. And it's been incredible working with thousands of kids and talking to them about mental health and having just heart to heart conversations, teaching them some different strategies for self regulation and self awareness. They're not as attached to rigid belief systems, so they are willing to think about things and look at things from a different perspective than adults. And I just think that's just the coolest mindset when you're approaching something like mental wellness. When we travel around the province with our Be Kind to Your Mind team, going into different schools, we have the absolute best conversations with these kids. When we ask them, what does mental health look like? When we talk about the stigmas, when we talk about how just because somebody looks a certain way, we can't assume that they're not struggling, we have this really cool practice we do with them called the imaginary backpack practice. Where we talk about. Every one of us is born with this invisible backpack. And it all starts fairly empty from the time we're born. But then everything that happens to us, every experience that we have with our families, with the outside world, loads into the backpack. So emotions and conflict and trauma and that backpack gets so heavy if we don't learn ways to unpack it, if we don't get a team of people who love us to help us unpack it. And we actually do this visually with the kids by getting them to put a really heavy backpack on their back and then a really light backpack. And it's just incredible, the conversations that come from that so powerful. Host/Lisa: So it just seems like a natural progression, really, that you've gone from the kind of work that you're explaining to us with youth matter and have rolled that really into your speaking career and on stage. I know you talk about lots of things, including Adversity, struggles, challenges, mental health, all kinds of things. Why do you think it's important that you talk about mental health? Laura: Well, mental health is the root of everything. It's the root of absolutely everything. We cannot have any conversation about anything affecting our lives without having a conversation about the state of our mental health. It is the foundation and root of our families, our communities, our work. For me, there's no division. Yeah, like, it's all mental health related. It's just immersed in our everyday life, in the way we talk, the conversations we have. It's so cool. The other day my five year old said to me he could really sense that I was having a bad morning. He could sense that my emotions were starting to become very overwhelming for me. And he looked at me and he said, mom, you should just try that rainbow breathing that you teach us. And when I was subbing for him today in their class, their kindergarten class, I could see him from the corner of my eye engaging in a little bit of meditative breath work because he was feeling very overwhelmed. And I mean, that's the power of immersing all of our conversations, our life, our relationships with mental health. Host/Lisa: I couldn't agree more. I think that is where we need to begin with everything. So when you and I met, you were just getting ready to start editing and publishing your book, Behind Closed Doors. Why did you write this book? Laura: It's another loaded question. Well, sharing stories changes and saves lives. And I think that when I have felt, seen, heard, valued and loved, it felt so much easier for me to get through the hard things. And when we're reminded that we're not alone, that we don't need to struggle in silence, that we're not a failure, but rather just human, it gives us the courage to keep going. And I had never imagined years ago that I'd spiral into the deep depression that I did. I had never imagined that I would be navigating a Divorce, a Separation, Coparenting, which is a whole other podcast in and of itself. But I thought if I could help others with tools and mind shifts and practices to help decrease the impact of stress on their minds and bodies, I would continue to do that for the rest of my days. And for me, writing was always such a big part of my own ability to release stored emotion, to cathartically move through hard things that I had been experiencing. And five years ago I founded a mental health movement called Strong as a Mother. And it was a coffee and conversation series that brought women together in the spirit of connection and real conversation. And why I founded it was because I was a mother who was struggling with so many things silently, because that was the strong thing to do. And I knew that I wasn't alone, I couldn't be alone. And that other women have had to have experienced similar things that I had been experiencing behind closed doors and not talking about them. And so I wanted to create a platform, a community, a movement that brought women together to talk about these things. And it morphed into this really beautiful community of courageous and resilient and everyday normal women who shared their vulnerability, their stories, their laughter, their tears with one another at every event that I hosted. And from that journey I just knew that I wanted every woman out there to experience the magic of the stronger as a mother community that we had created, even though they couldn't get to it in person or I'd never experienced it. So I chose 13 women from that movement that had sat heart to heart with me and with other women and bravely shared their stories of navigating some of the lowest of lows and highest of highs from their journeys of marriage and motherhood and mental health. And I wrote a book about it and I wove pieces of my own story in between those little mini memoirs that ended up being a collection of true heart work that I'm really proud of. And I'm so grateful to those women who sat heart to heart with me because it has created an incredible ripple effect of love and support and the messages and emails I get from readers whom I've never met who just said the book changed their life. Just to be able to read a story and see a version of themselves in that story is just so powerful for their own healing and they're really a gentle way that we can learn from one another and to really help understand different things. Host/Lisa: And that's exactly what your book does. You could pick it up. You don't even have to start at the beginning. You can read each memoir on its own. And there is definitely something in your book for everybody. Well done. Laura: Thank you. What's next for you? I feel like every time I talk to you, you've got something new coming up on the horizon. Tell us what's going on. Laura: Well, there's always something next. My busy brain is both a blessing and a curse. And I have quite a creative mind, so I'm always thinking about the next thing. So I have already written three children's books, all under the niche of mental wellness. They are published and available on my website and through Amazon. But I have two more children's books that have been edited and are ready to release, so those will be coming out in 2024. And I have had this dream to actually host my own podcast since 2018. In fact, the graphic designer who did my website back in 2018, I had her put in the corner on the bottom coming soon podcast. But turns out Coming soon was five years. So that'll be coming in early 2024 as well. Well, I'm so excited to hear the first episode when it comes out in the new year. Congratulations on that. Thank you. And I think that what it stems from, and I write about this in the book, is that there are two things that every soul on this planet will experience in life, and those two things are love and pain. And the degree to which we love someone or something is very synonymous to the degree of which we experience pain when that someone or something leaves us or dies or becomes ill. And I think that creating a platform or a movement where you can allow people to feel vulnerable enough to share that love, to share that pain is so cathartic and so healing. I am really excited, but a podcast is not for the faint of heart. So I want to congratulate you as well. Your episodes have been phenomenal. I absolutely love tuning in and I think that many people don't know what goes behind all of the work in creating these platforms. It's hard work. Host/Lisa: It's hard work for sure. Definitely hard work and heart work, as you say. Just for our listeners, I will be listing Laura's books and where you can find them and also the links to connect with Laura if you have any questions for her. But Laura, I would love to know. Now this is a surprise question. She doesn't know that. I'm going to ask this. What does resilience mean to you? Laura: Resilience means picking yourself back up again after you've fallen in that deep, dark well and reaching out to those who love you, who support you to get back up again. I really, truly believe that we can't experience resilience or have resilience on our own. It's not a one woman or one man show. It really comes from our support systems, from those we love, from those that encourage us to get back up again. And for me, resilience meant restarting. The paths that we take are very different from what we thought life would look like. And so resilience is just navigating those paths again in new ways. host/Lisa: Yeah, I agree. And I'm also going to add to that, and this is just my spin on things, but I also think we can't have resilience without having had Adversity first. Laura: Oh, for sure. I just don't think we can truly understand what resilience is until we have fallen flat on our face, unfortunately. Host/Lisa: So how do you think you've become resilient? Sometimes I think I have had to fake it until I actually made it. To be honest. I think that my resilience has really come from my ability to be open minded, but also to build community. I say without doubt, the divorce, the separation led me to today, which I am incredibly grateful for. I have had the most beautiful opportunities to develop rich, abundant and grateful moments and relationships with people that would have never come my way had that frying pan moment not happened in my life. Host/Lisa: Right. It's so true. And I think that when we fall flat on our face and we have to get back up and usually it's not just one time getting up and it's all good, right? We're falling down, getting up, falling down, getting up a whole bunch of times. Every time we get back up, we gain a little bit of confidence. Oh yeah, I was down here before. I remember this place. Okay. And I've got this tool. Belt and it's getting more tools in it. I know how to get up, and I think that that's very powerful as well on our journey, because life is not easy, but we have to just keep going. Laura: We are always one moment away from a different trajectory in life. And so having those tools, having that team, having that community so that they can help pick you up when you go through those lowest of lows is imperative. And I think that we can't get comfortable in thinking that we've arrived at a certain healing space, because healing is just not a linear journey. It is messy, you know, my friend, it is messy. Host/Lisa: It is very messy. Laura, you're a very wise woman, and I am so grateful that you took some time out to spend time with me today. And I know that your message is going to resonate with many of our listeners. So thank you so much for coming today. And to our listeners, be well and stay resilient. Laura: Thanks, Lisa. Host/Lisa

Yes, Howard Brown is a two-time cancer survivor. As you will discover in our episode, he grew up with an attitude to thrive and move forward. Throughout his life, he has learned about sales and the concepts of being a successful entrepreneur while twice battling severe cancer.   Howard's life story is one of those events worth telling and I hope you find it worth listening to. He even has written a book about all he has done. The book entitles Shining Brightly has just been released, but you get to hear the story directly from Howards' lips.   About the Guest: Howard Brown is an author, speaker, podcaster, Silicon Valley entrepreneur, interfaith peacemaker, two-time stage IV cancer survivor, and healthcare advocate. For more than three decades, Howard's business innovations, leadership principles, mentoring and his resilience in beating cancer against long odds have made him a sought-after speaker and consultant for businesses, nonprofits, congregations, and community groups. In his business career, Howard was a pioneer in helping to launch a series of technology startups before he co-founded two social networks that were the first to connect religious communities around the world. He served his alma mater—Babson College, ranked by US News as the nation's top college for entrepreneurship—as a trustee and president of Babson's worldwide alumni network. His hard-earned wisdom about resilience after beating cancer twice has led him to become a nationally known patient advocate and “cancer whisperer” to many families. Visit Howard at ShiningBrightly.com to learn more about his ongoing work and contact him. Through that website, you also will find resources to help you shine brightly in your own corner of the world. Howard, his wife Lisa, and his daughter Emily currently reside in Michigan. About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:20 Hi, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to interview Howard Brown, I'm not going to tell you a lot because I want him to tell his story. He's got a wonderful story to tell an inspiring story. And he's got lots of experiences that I think will be relevant for all of us and that we all get to listen to. So with that, Howard, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Howard Brown  01:44 Thank you, Michael. I'm really pleased to be here. And thanks for having me on your show. And excited to talk to your audience and and share a little bit.   Michael Hingson  01:54 Well, I will say that Howard and I met through Podapolooza, which I've told you about in the past and event that brings podcasters would be podcasters. And people who want to be interviewed by podcasters together, and Howard will tell us which were several of those he is because he really is involved in a lot of ways. But why don't you start maybe by telling us a little bit about your, your kind of earlier life and introduce people to you and who you are. Sure, sure.   Howard Brown  02:23 So I'm from Boston. I can disguise the accent very well. But when I talked to my mother, we're back in Boston, we're packing a car. We're going for hot dogs and beans over to Fenway Park. So gotta get a soda. We're getting a soda, not a pop. So we add the Rs. They call my wife Lisa, not Lisa. But I grew up I grew up in the suburbs of Boston, a town called Framingham. And I'm a twin. And I'm very unusual. But a girl boy twin, my twin sister Cheryl. She goes by CJ is five minutes older. And I hold that I hold that now against her now that we're older and she didn't want to be older, but now she's my older sister, my big sister by five whole minutes.   Michael Hingson  03:09 Well, she's big sister, so she needs to take care of her baby brother   Howard Brown  03:12 says exactly. And she did. And we're gonna get to that because it's a really important point being a twin, which we'll get to in a second. But so Britta she Where does she live now? So she lives 40 minutes away from me here in Michigan.   Michael Hingson  03:25 Oh my gosh, you both have moved out of the area.   Howard Brown  03:27 So she she moved to Albany, New York. I moved to Southern then California, LA area and the beaches, and then Silicon Valley. And then the last 17 years we've all lived close. And we raised our families together here in the suburbs of Detroit, Michigan.   Michael Hingson  03:40 What got you to all go to Michigan?   Howard Brown  03:43 Well, for me, it was a choice. My wife is from Michigan, and I was in Silicon Valley. And we were Pat had a little girl Emily, who's four. There's a story there too. But we'll we decided we wanted her to grow up with a family and cousins and aunts and uncles and my in laws live here. My wife grew up here. And this made it closer for my parents and Boston suburbs to get here as well. So great place to raise a family very different from Silicon Valley in Palo Alto, California.   Michael Hingson  04:12 Yeah, but don't you miss Steve's ice cream in Boston?   Howard Brown  04:15 I do. I miss the ice cream. I missed the cannolis in the Back Bay. I missed some of the Chinese food. So in the north end, but it just it I do, but I have not lived there. I went to college there at Babson College number one school for entrepreneurship. And then when I got my first job, I moved out to Ohio but then I moved back and well there's a whole story of why I had to move back as well but we'll get   Michael Hingson  04:41 there. So are your parents still living in Boston?   Howard Brown  04:46 They are and so my dad I call myself son of a boot man. My dad for 49 years has sold cowboy boots in New England in the in the in the western you know the states New York Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts. And that's, you know, anyone who stayed somewhere for 49 years got to be applauded. And he's a straight commission boot salesman and he sold women's shoes prior to that. So he he's, he's a renaissance man.   Michael Hingson  05:15 Wow. So does he sell cowboy boots with snow treads as it were for the winter?   Howard Brown  05:21 No snow trends but, you know, like out west when you're working on, you know, on with cattle and working out west and sometimes it's a fashion statement. Not not too many places in New England like that. But he, he made a living, he enjoyed it. And he's, he's just about to retire at the age of 79. This year.   Michael Hingson  05:39 I remember living in Boston and and when I wear shoes with just leather soles, I slid around a lot on the sidewalks and all that so did get rubber rubbers to go over my boots and then later got real boots.   Howard Brown  05:54 Right. So I have the big hiking boots, the Timberlands, but I too have a pair of a you know, in Boston, we call them rabbits, rabbits, robins. And they basically are slip ons that gave you grip. They slipped right over your leather shoes. And you wore them when anyway in the snow and in those sloshing in the mess. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  06:12 And they worked really well. They did. So you went off to college. And I gather kind of almost right from the beginning you got involved in the whole idea of entrepreneurship.   Howard Brown  06:23 Well, I did I transferred to Babson from a liberal arts school called Connecticut College. I just I found out it wasn't for me and Babson College changed the trajectory of my entire life. i i I knew that I wanted to do sales and then later technology. But Babson was the catalyst for that. They just they support entrepreneurship of all kinds, no matter how you define it, and I just drank it in and I loved, I loved my time there. I love my learning there. And I continue to stay involved with Babson very closely as a past president of the Alumni Association, a former trustee, and very actively recruit students to go there and support student businesses. So it was a big impact on me and I continue to give back to it.   Michael Hingson  07:11 That's pretty cool. So how, how did you proceed as far as a career and entrepreneurial involvement as it were in in sales and all that?   Howard Brown  07:22 So I had an internship, I had wanted cellular one when cellular phones came out and I was basically learning the business. This is really early 1984 And five, and then I got another internship at NCR Corporation if you remember national cash register 120 year old company based out of Dayton, Ohio, and now it's in Atlanta, and it's, it's just not the same company. But I took an internship there a lot of Babson folks work there. And I worked as a trainer, sales installation rep. I trained waitresses, waiters, bartenders, hotel clerks, night audits, how to use cash register computer systems. So I was the teacher and a trainer. And I would, you know, talk to waitresses and waiters and bartenders and say you can make more tips by providing better service. But the way that you do that is you type you the order into a computer, it zaps it to the order station or the back to the back of the house to cook to prepare the foods or for the drinks. And you can spend more time servicing your table which should translate into higher tips. Well, about a third of them said nope, not for me, a third of them were need to be convinced and a third of them are like I'm in. I had a lot of fun doing that. And then after the shift, the either the manager or the owner would come over and they'd give you a savior at a Chinese food restaurant. They give you a poopoo platter to go to take home to your dorm room.   Michael Hingson  08:46 So I had a lot of fun, a lot of fun and a lot of good food.   Howard Brown  08:50 Sure sure. So that's what really started me off and hired me   Michael Hingson  08:55 so did that did that concept of tips and all that and advising people ever get you to translate that to Durgin Park?   Howard Brown  09:03 I actually did install the cashiers to computers area ago Daniel hall so the checkerboard you know draped you know cloth on the table and so you know it's there's a lot of good restaurants in Boston, you know the union Oyster House with a toothpick but I did countless restaurants hotels bars, you know it was I was basically at the whim of the Salesforce and there was a couple of us that went to go train and teach people and take the night shift and make sure everything was going smoothly as they installed the new system of course the no name restaurant and other one but well you know for for your listeners that no name was a place to get, you know, really great discounted seafood but you sat on a park bench. Remember that?   Michael Hingson  09:50 Right? Oh yeah, definitely. It wasn't. Well, neither was Durgin park, but I haven't kept up Is it still there?   Howard Brown  10:00 Yes, I believe it's still there.   Michael Hingson  10:01 Oh, good. I heard somewhere that, that it might not be because of COVID. But we enjoy   Howard Brown  10:07 down it shut down for a while during COVID I hope it's back open. I'm gonna have to go now. Yeah, you're gonna make me go check to see if it's open. But you know, many of them are still there. And obviously restaurants turn over. But that's a mainstay that's got a lot of history.   Michael Hingson  10:19 Oh, it does. And we had a lot of fun with the waitresses and so on at their Compac. I know, once we went there, and you know, the whole story, that Durgan is a place where you sit at family tables, unless we actually have four people then they'll let you sit at one of the tables for for around the outside. Well, there were three of us and my guide dog when we went in one time. And the hostess said, we're gonna put you at one of the tables for for just to give more room for the puppy dog. And she sat us down there. Then the waitress came over and as they are supposed to do at Durgan Park, she said, you're not supposed to sit here. There are only three of you. And I said there's a dog under the table. No, there's not. You can't fool me with that. And the waitress isn't supposed to be snotty, right. And she just kept going on and on about it. And I kept saying there is a dog under the table. She went away. And then she came back a little bit later. And she said, You've got to move and I said no. Why don't you just look, there's a dog under the table. You're not gonna make me fall for that. She finally looked. And there are these Golden Retriever puppy eyes staring back at her. She just melted. It was so much fun.   Howard Brown  11:26 Wouldn't be Boston if you didn't get a little attitude. Well, yeah, that's part of what it's all about your right next seating. And they just they sit you in a and they say, meet each other and be married.   Michael Hingson  11:38 Yeah, yeah. And it was a lot of fun. So how long did it take you to get to Silicon Valley?   Howard Brown  11:44 Well, so the story is that I did. I worked for NCR and I got hired by NCR, but I wanted out of the hospitality business. You know, even though he's young work until two, three in the morning, once they shut the restaurant or bar down or the hotel down, and then you do the night audit and you do the records. It was a hard life. So I looked and I did my research. And I said, you know who's who's making all the money here at NCR in the banking division. And it was really the early days of the outsourcing movement, punch cards, and you're outsourcing bank accounts, over 1200 baud modems. And I said, Well, that's interesting. And so I went to NCRs training at Sugar camp to learn how to be a salesperson were they actually in the early days, they filmed you, they taught you negotiation skills, competitive analysis, Industry Skills, it was fantastic. It's like getting an MBA today. But they did it all in six months, with mixing fieldwork in with, you know, training at this education facility in Dayton, Ohio. And I came out as a junior salesperson working for for very expansive experience, guys. And they just, I knew one thing, if I made them more productive, they'd make me money. And I did. And I, they sent me to banks and savings and loans and credit unions all over New England. And I basically learned the business of banking and outsourcing to these banks. And they made a lot of money. So that was how my career started. You can't do better than that. But to answer the question, because it's a little more complex than that. But it took me NCR in 1988. And then I moved out to Los Angeles in 1991, after a big health scare, which we'll talk about, and then I moved up in 2005. So there's the timeline to get me to Silicon Valley.   Michael Hingson  13:29 So you, you definitely moved around. I know that feeling well, having had a number of jobs and been required to live in various parts of the country when going back and forth from one coast to another from time to time. So you know, it's it's there. So you, you did all of that. And you You ended up obviously making some money and continuing to to be in the entrepreneurial world. But how does that translate into kind of more of an entrepreneurial spirit today?   Howard Brown  14:00 So great question, Michael. So what happened was is that I built a foundation. So at that time when you graduated school, and as far as for technology, the big computer shops like IBM Unisys, NCR, Hewlett Packard, what they did is they took you raw out of college, and they put you through their training program. And that training program was their version of the gospel of their of their products and your competitors and all that. And that built a great foundation. Well, I moved to Los Angeles after this big health scare, which I'm sure we're gonna go back and talk about, and I moved into the network products division. So I didn't stay in the banking division. I looked at the future and said voice data and video. I think there's the future there and I was right and AT and T bought NCR and, unfortunately, this is probably 1992. They also bought McCaw cellular they had just bought all of Eddie computer. They were a big company of five 600,000 employees and I have To tell you, the merger wasn't great. You felt like a number. And I knew that was my time. That was my time where I said, I got my foundation built. It's now time to go to a startup. So your time had come. My time had come. So at&t, offered early retirement for anyone 50 and older, and then they didn't get enough takers. So they offered early retirement for anyone that wanted to change. And so the talk around the watercooler was, let's wait they'll make a better offer. And I was like, I'm 26 and a half years old. I what am I waiting for? So they made a tremendously generous offer. I took early retirement, and I moved to my first true startup called avid technology that was in the production space. And we basically were changing film and television production from analog to digital. And I never looked back, I basically have been with startups ever since. And that, but that foundation I felt was really important that I got from NCR, but I prefer smaller companies and build the building them up from scratch and moving them forward.   Michael Hingson  16:07 Yeah, when you can do more to help shape the way they go. Because the the problem with a larger a lot of larger companies is they get very set in their ways. And they tend not to listen as much as maybe they should to people who might come along with ideas that might be beneficial to them, as opposed to startups as you say,   Howard Brown  16:27 Well, it depends. I mean, you know, you want to build a company that is still somewhat innovative. So what these large companies like Google and Facebook do, and Apple is they go acquire, they acquire the startups before they get too big or sometimes like, it's like what Facebook did with Instagram, they acquired six people, Google acquired YouTube, and they acquire the technology of best of breed technology. And then they shape it, and they accelerate it up. So listen, companies like IBM are still innovative, Apple, you know, is so innovative. But you need to maintain that because it can get to be a bureaucracy, and with hundreds of 1000s of employees. And you can't please everybody, but I knew my calling was was technology startups. And I just, I needed to get that, get that foundation built. And then away away I went. And that's what I've done. Since   Michael Hingson  17:16 you're right. It's all about with with companies, if they want to continue to be successful, they have to be innovative, and they have to be able to grow. I remember being in college, when Hewlett Packard came out with the HP 25, which was a very sophisticated calculator. Back in the the late 19th, early 1970s. And then Texas Instruments was working on a calculator, they came out with one that kind of did a lot of the stuff that HP did. But about that same time because HP was doing what they were doing, they came out with the HP 35. And basically it added, among other things, a function key that basically doubled the number of incredible things that you could do on the HP 25.   Howard Brown  17:58 Right, I had a TI calculator and in high school.   Michael Hingson  18:02 Well, and of course yeah, go ahead HPUS pull reverse Polish notation, which was also kind   Howard Brown  18:09 of fun. Right and then with the kids don't understand today is that, you know, we took typing, I get I think we took typing.   Michael Hingson  18:19 Did you type did you learn to type on a typewriter without letters on the keys?   Howard Brown  18:23 No, I think we have letters I think you just couldn't look down or else you get smacked. You know, the big brown fox jumped over the you know, something that's I don't know, but I did learn but I I'm sort of a hybrid. I looked down once in a while when I'd say   Michael Hingson  18:39 I remember taking a typing course in actually it was in summer school. I think it was between seventh and eighth grade. And of course the typewriters were typewriters, typewriters for teaching so they didn't have letters on the keys, which didn't matter to me a whole lot. But by the same token, that's the way they were but I learned to type and yeah, we learned to type and we learned how to be pretty accurate with it's sort of like learning to play the piano and eventually learning to do it without looking at the keys so that you could play and either read music or learn to play by ear.   Howard Brown  19:15 That's true. And And again, in my dorm room, I had Smith Corona, and I ended up having a bottle of or many bottles of white out.   Michael Hingson  19:25 White out and then there was also the what was it the other paper that you could put on the samosa did the same thing but white out really worked?   Howard Brown  19:33 Yeah, you put that little strip of tape and then it would wait it out for you then you can type over it. Right? We've come a long way. It's some of its good and some of its bad.   Michael Hingson  19:43 Yeah, now we have spellchecker Yeah, we do for what it's worth,   Howard Brown  19:49 which we got more and more and more than that on these I mean listen to this has allowed us to, to to do a zoom call here and record and goods and Bad's to all of that.   Michael Hingson  19:58 Yeah, I still I have to tell people learning to edit. Now using a sound editor called Reaper, I can do a lot more clean editing than I was able to do when I worked at a campus radio station, and had to edit by cutting tape and splicing with splicing tape.   Howard Brown  20:14 Exactly. And that's Yeah, yeah, Michael, we change the you know, avid changed the game, because we went from splicing tape or film and Betamax cassettes in the broadcast studios to a hard drive in a mouse, right? changed, we changed the game there because you were now editing on a hard drive. And so I was part of that in 1994. And again, timing has to work out and we had to retrain the unions at the television networks. And it was, for me, it was just timing worked really well. Because my next startup, liquid audio, the timing didn't work out well, because we're, we were going to try to do the same thing in the audio world, which is download music. But when you do that, when you it's a Sony cassette and Sony Walkman days, the world wasn't ready yet. We we still went public, we still did a secondary offering. But we never really brought product to market because it took Steve Jobs 10 years later to actually sell a song for 99 cents and convince the record industry that that was, you know, you could sell slices of pizza instead of the whole pizza, the whole record out   Michael Hingson  21:17 and still make money. I remember avid devices and hearing about them and being in television stations. And of course, for me, none of that was accessible. So it was fun to to be able to pick on the fact that no matter what, as Fred Allen, although he didn't say it quite this way, once said they call television the new medium, because that's as good as it's ever gonna get. But anyway, you know, it has come a long way. But it was so sophisticated to go into some of the studios with some of the even early equipment, like Avid, and see all the things that they were doing with it. It just made life so much better.   Howard Brown  21:52 Yeah, well, I mean, you're not I was selling, you know, $100,000 worth of software on a Macintosh, which first of all the chief engineers didn't even like, but at the post production facilities, they they they drank that stuff up, because you could make a television commercial, you could do retakes, you could add all the special effects, and it could save time. And then you could get more revenue from that. And so it was pretty easy sale, because we tell them how fast they could pay off to the hardware, the software and then train everybody up. And they were making more and more and better commercials for the car dealerships and the local Burger Joint. And they were thrilled that these local television stations, I can tell you that   Michael Hingson  22:29 I sold some of the first PC based CAD systems and the same sort of thing, architects were totally skeptical about it until they actually sat down and we got them in front of a machine and showed them how to use it. Let them design something that they could do with three or four hours, as opposed to spending days with paper and paper and paper and more paper in a drafting table. And they could go on to the next project and still charge as much.   Howard Brown  22:53 It was funny. I take a chief engineer on to lunch, and I tried to gauge their interest and a third, we're just enthusiastic because they wanted to make sure that they were the the way that technology came into the station. They were they were the brainchild they were the they were the domain experts. So a third again, just like training waitresses and waiters and bartenders, a third of them. Oh, they wanted they just wanted to consume it all. A third of them were skeptical and needed convincing. And a third of whom was like, that's never going out on my hair anywhere. Yeah, they were the later and later adopters, of course.   Michael Hingson  23:24 And some of them were successful. And some of them were not.   Howard Brown  23:28 Absolutely. We continue. We no longer. Go ahead. No, no, of course I am the my first sales are the ones that were early adopters. And and then I basically walked over to guys that are later adopters. I said, Well, I said, you know, the ABC, the NBC and the fox station and the PBS station habit, you know, you don't have it, and they're gonna take all your post production business away from you. And that got them highly motivated.   Michael Hingson  23:54 Yeah. And along the way, from a personal standpoint, somebody got really clever. And it started, of course at WGBH in Boston, where they recognize the fact that people who happen to be blind would want to know what's going on on TV when the dialog wasn't saying much to to offer clues. And so they started putting an audio description and editing and all that and somebody created the secondary audio programming in the other things that go into it. And now that's becoming a lot more commonplace, although it's still got a long way to go.   Howard Brown  24:24 Well, I agree. So but you're right. So having that audio or having it for visually impaired or hearing impaired are all that they are now we're making some progress. So it's still a ways to go. I agree with you.   Michael Hingson  24:36 still a ways to go. Well, you along the way in terms of continuing to work with Abbott and other companies in doing the entrepreneurial stuff. You've had a couple of curveballs from life.   Howard Brown  24:47 I have. So going back to my promotion, I was going driving out to Dayton, Ohio, I noticed a little spot on my cheekbone. didn't think anything of it. I was so excited to get promoted and start my new job. up, I just kept powering through. So a few weeks after I'd moved out to Dayton, Ohio, my mom comes out. And she's at the airport and typical Boston and mom, she's like, What's that on your cheek? What's that on your cheek? And I was like, Mom, it's nothing. I kind of started making excuses. I got hit playing basketball, I got it at the gym or something. And she's like, well, we got to get that checked out. I said, No, Mom, it's okay. It's not no big deal. It's a little little market. Maybe it's a cyst or pebble or something I don't know. So she basically said she was worried, but she never told me. So she helped set up my condo, or an apartment. And then she left. And then as long Behold, I actually had to go speak in Boston at the American Bankers Association about disaster recovery, and having a disaster recovery plan. And so this is the maybe August of 1989. And I came back and that spot was still there. And so my mom told my dad, remember, there was payphones? There was no cell phones, no computers, no internet. So she told my dad, she didn't take a picture of it. But now he saw it. And he goes, Let's go play tennis. There's I got there on a Friday. So on a Saturday morning, we'd go do something. And instead of going to play tennis, he took me to a local community hospital. And they took a look at it. And they said off its assist, take some my antibiotic erythromycin or something, you'll be fine. Well, I came back to see them on Monday after my speech. And I said, I'm not feeling that great. Maybe it's the rethrow myosin. And so having to be four o'clock in the afternoon, he took me to the same emergency room. And he's and I haven't had the same doctor on call. He actually said, You know what, let's take a biopsy of it. So he took a biopsy of it. And then he went back to the weight room, he said, I didn't get a big enough slice. Let me take another. So he took another and then my dad drove me to the airport, and I basically left. And my parents called me maybe three weeks later, and they said, You got to come back to Boston. We gotta go see, you know, they got the results. But you know, they didn't tell us they'll only tell you. Because, you know, it's my private data. So I flew back to Boston, with my parents. And this time, I had, like, you know, another doctor there with this emergency room doctor, and he basically checks me out, checks me out, but he doesn't say too much. But he does say that we have an appointment for you at Dana Farber Cancer Institute at 2pm. I think you should go. And I was like, whoa, what are you talking about? Why am I going to Dana Farber Cancer Institute. So it gets, you know, kind of scary there because I show up there. I'm in a suit and tie. My dad's in a suit down. My mom's seems to be dressed up. And we go, and they put me through tests. And I walk in there. And I don't know if you remember this, Michael. But the Boston Red Sox charity is called the Jimmy fund. Right? And the Jimmy fund are for kids with blood cancers, lymphoma leukemias, so I go there. And they checked me in and they told me as a whole host of tests they're going to do, and I'm looking in the waiting room, and I see mostly older people, and I'm 23 years old. So I go down the hallways, and I see little kids. So I go I go hang out with the little kids while I'm waiting. I didn't know what was going on. So they call me and I do my test. And this Dr. George Canalis, who's you know, when I came to learn that the inventor of some chemo therapies for lymphomas very experienced, and this young Harvard fellow named Eric Rubin I get pulled into this office with this big mahogany desk. And they say you have stage four E T cell non Hodgkins lymphoma. It's a very aggressive, aggressive, very aggressive form of cancer. We're going to try to knock this out. I have to tell you, Michael, I don't really remember hardly anything else that was said, I glossed over. I looked up at this young guy, Eric Rubin, and I said, What's he saying? I looked back out of the corner of my eye, my mom's bawling her eyes out. My dad's looks like a statue. And I have to tell you, I was really just a deer in the headlights. I had no idea that how a healthy 23 year old guy gets, you know, stage four T cell lymphoma with a very horrible prognosis. I mean, I mean, they don't they said, We don't know if we can help you at the world, one of the world's foremost cancer research hospitals in the world. So it was that was that was a tough pill to swallow. And I did some more testing. And then they told me to come back in about a week to start chemotherapy. And so, again, I didn't have the internet to search anything. I had encyclopedias. I had some friends, you know, and I was like, I'm a young guy. And, you know, I was talking to older people that potentially, you know, had leukemia or different cancer, but I didn't know much. And so I I basically showed up for chemotherapy, scared out of my mind, in denial, and Dr. RUBIN comes out and he says, we're not doing chemo today. I said, I didn't sleep awake. What are you talking about? He says, we'll try again tomorrow, your liver Our function test is too high. And my liver function test is too high. So I'm starting to learn but I still don't know what's going on. He says I got it was going to field trip. Field Trip. He said, Yeah, you're going down the street to Newton Wellesley hospital, we're going to the cryogenic center, cryo, what? What are you talking about? He goes, it's a sperm bank, and you're gonna go, you know, leave a sample specimen. And it's like, you just told me that, you know, if you can help me out what why I'm not even thinking about kids, right now. He said, Go do it. He says what else you're going to do today, and then you come back tomorrow, and we'll try chemo. So thank God, he said that, because I deposited before I actually started any chemotherapy, which, you know, as basically, you know, rendered me you know, impotent now because of all the chemotherapy and radiation I had. So that was a blessing that I didn't know about until later, which we'll get to. But a roll the story forward a little more quickly as that I was getting all bad news. I was relapsing, I went through about three or four different cycles of different chemotherapy recipes, nothing was working. I was getting sicker, and they tight. My sister, I am the twin CJ, for bone marrow transplant and she was a 25% chance of being a match. She happened to be 100% match. And I had to then gear up for back in 1990 was a bone marrow transplant where they would remove her bone marrow from her hip bones, they would scrub it and cleanse it, and they would put it in me. And they would hope that my body wouldn't immediately rejected and die and shut down or over time, which is called graft versus host these that it wouldn't kill me or potentially that it would work and it would actually reset my immune system. And it would take over the malignant cells and set my set me back straight, which it ended up doing. And so having a twin was another blessing miracle. You know that, you know, that happened to me. And I did some immunotherapy called interleukin two that was like, like the grandfather of immunotherapy that strengthened my system. And then I moved to Florida to get out of the cold weather and then I moved out to California to rebuild my life. I call that Humpty Dumpty building Humpty Dumpty version one. And that's that's how I got to California in Southern California.   Michael Hingson  32:15 So once again, your big sister savedthe day,   Howard Brown  32:19 as usual.   Michael Hingson  32:21 That's a big so we go,   Howard Brown  32:23 as we call ourselves the Wonder Twins. He's more. She's terrific. And thank God she gave part of herself and saved my life. And I am eternally grateful to her for that,   Michael Hingson  32:34 but but she never had any of the same issues or, or diseases. I gather. She's been   Howard Brown  32:41 very healthy, except for like a knee. A partial knee replacement. She's been very healthy her whole life.   Michael Hingson  32:48 Well, did she have to have a knee replacement because she kept kicking you around or what?   Howard Brown  32:52 No, she's little. She's five feet. 510 So she never kicked me. We are best friends. My wife's best friend. I know. She is just just a saint. She's She's such a giving person and you know, we take that from our parents, but she she gave of herself of what she could do. She said she do it again in a heartbeat. I don't think I'm allowed to give anybody my bone marrow but if I could, would give it to her do anything for her. She's She's amazing. So she gave me the gift, the gift of life.   Michael Hingson  33:21 So you went to Florida, then you moved to California and what did you do when you got out here?   Howard Brown  33:24 So I ended up moving up to northern California. So I met this girl from Michigan in Southern California, Lisa, my wife have now 28 years in July. We married Lisa Yeah, we got married under the Jewish wedding company's wedding canopies called the hotpot and we're looking at the Pacific Ocean, we made people come out that we had that Northridge earthquake in 94. But this is in July, so things are more settled. So we had all friends and family come out. And it was beautiful. We got it on a pool deck overlooking the Pacific. It was gorgeous. It was a beautiful Hollywood type wedding. And it was amazing. So we got married in July of 94. And then moved up to Silicon Valley in 97. And then I was working at the startups. My life was really out of balance because I'm working 20 hours, you know, a day and I'm traveling like crazy. And my wife says, You know what, you got to be home for dinner if we're going to think about having a family. And we're a little bit older now. 35 and 40. And so we've got to think about these things. And so I called back to Newton Wellesley hospital, and I got the specimen of sperm shipped out to San Jose, and we went through an in vitro fertilization process. And she grew eight eight eggs and they defrosted the swimmers and they took the best ones and put them back in the four best eggs and our miracle baby our frozen kids sickle. Emily was born in August of 2001. Another blessing another miracle. I was able to have a child and healthy baby girl.   Michael Hingson  34:58 So what's Emily doing today?   Howard Brown  35:00 Well, thank you for asking that. So, she is now in Missoula, Montana at a television station called K Pax eight Mountain News. And she's an intern for the summer. And she's living her great life out there hiking, Glacier National Park. And she ran I think she ran down to the Grand Tetons and, and she's learning about the broadcast business and reporting. She's a writer by trade, by trade and in journalism. And she likes philosophy. So she'll be coming back home to finish her senior year, this at the end of the summer at the University of Michigan. And so she's about to graduate in December. And she's, she's doing just great.   Michael Hingson  35:35 So she writes and doesn't do video editing us yet using Abbott or any of the evolutions from it.   Howard Brown  35:41 No, she does. She actually, when you're in a small market station, that's you. You write the script, she does the recording, she has a tripod, sometimes she's she films with the other reporters, but when she they sent her out as an intern, and she just covered the, this, you know, the pro pro life and pro choice rallies, she she records herself, she edits on Pro Tools, which is super powerful now, and a lot less expensive. And then, when she submits, she submits it refer review to the news director and to her superiors. And she's already got, I think, three video stories and about six different by lines on written stories. So she's learning by doing, it's experiential, it's amazing.   Michael Hingson  36:23 So she must have had some experience in dealing with all the fires and stuff out at Yellowstone and all that.   Howard Brown  36:31 So the flooding at Yellowstone, so I drove her out there in May. And I didn't see any fires. But the flooding we got there before that, she took me on a hike on the North Gate of Yellowstone. And she's she's, you know, environmentally wilderness trained first aid trained. And I'm the dad, and I'm in decent shape. But she took me out an hour out and an hour back in and, you know, saw a moose saw a deer didn't see any mountain lion didn't see any Grizzlies, thank God, but we did see moose carcass where the grizzly had got a hold on one of those and, and everybody else to get it. So I got to go out to nature weather and we took a road trip out there this summer, it was a blast. It's the those are the memories, when you've been through a cancer diagnosis that you just you hold on to very dearly and very tight. It was a blast. So that's what he's doing this summer. She'll be back. She'll be back in August, end of August.   Michael Hingson  37:22 That's really exciting to hear that she's working at it and being successful. And hopefully she'll continue to do that. And do good reporting. And I know that this last week, with all the Supreme Court cases, it's it's, I guess, in one sense, a field day for reporters. But it's also a real challenge, because there's so many polarized views on all of that.   Howard Brown  37:44 Well, everybody's a broadcaster now whether it's Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and all the other ones out there, tick tock. So everybody's sort of a reporter now. And you know, what do you believe, and unfortunately, I just can't believe in something in 140 characters or something in two sentences. Yeah, there's no depth there. So sometimes you miss the point, and all this stuff. And then everything's on 24 hours on CNN, on Fox on MSNBC, so it never stops. So I call that a very noisy world. And it's hard to process. You know, all this. It's coming at you so fast in the blink of an eye. So we're in a different time than when we grew up, Michael, it was a slower pace. Today in this digital world. It's, it's, it's a lot and especially COVID. Now, are we just consuming and consuming and binging and all this stuff, I don't think it's that healthy.   Michael Hingson  38:36 It's not only a noisy world, but it's also a world, it's very disconnected, you can say all you want about how people can send tweets back and forth, text messages back and forth and so on. But you're not connecting, you're not really getting deep into anything, you're not really establishing relationships in the way that as you point out, we used to, and we don't connect anymore, even emails don't give you that much connection, realism, as opposed to having meaningful dialogue and meaningful conversations. So we just don't Converse anymore. And now, with all that's going on, in the very divided opinions, there's there's no room for discussion, because everybody has their own opinion. And that's it, there's no room to dialogue on any of it at all, which is really too bad.   Howard Brown  39:21 Yeah, I agree. It's been divisive. And, you know, it's, it's hard because, you know, an email doesn't have the body language, the intent, the emotion, like we're talking right now. And, you know, we're expressing, you know, you know, I'm telling stories of my story personally, but you can tell when I get excited, I smile, I can get animated. Sometimes with an email, you know, you don't know the intent and it can be misread. And a lot of that communication is that way. So, you know, I totally get where you're coming from.   Michael Hingson  39:55 And that's why I like doing the podcasts that we're doing. We get to really have conversation isn't just asking some questions and getting an answer and then going on to the next thing. That's, frankly, no fun. And I think it's important to be able to have the opportunity to really delve into things and have really good conversations about them. I learned a lot, and I keep seeing as I do these podcasts, and for the past 20 plus years, I've traveled around the world speaking, of course, about September 11, and talking about teamwork, and trust, and so on. And as I always say, if I don't learn more than I'm able to teach or impart, then I'm not doing my job very well.   Howard Brown  40:35 So that's exactly and that's, that's where I'm going after the second health concern. You know, I'm now going to teach, I'm gonna inspire, I'm going to educate. And that's, that's, that's what I do, I want to do with the rest of my time is to be able to, you know, listen, I'm not putting my head in the sand, about school shootings, about an insurrection about floods about all that. You gotta live in the real world. But I choose, as I say, I like to live on positive Street as much as possible, but positive street with action. That's, that's what makes the world a better place at the end of the day. So you sharing that story means that one we'll never forget. And you can educate the generations to come that need to understand, you know, that point in time and how it affected you and how you've dealt with it, and how you've been able to get back out of bed every day. And I want to do the same.   Michael Hingson  41:26 Well, there's nothing wrong with being positive. I think that there is a need to be aware. But we can we can continue to be positive, and try to promote positivity, try to promote connectionism and conversations and so on, and promote the fact that it's okay to have different opinions. But the key is to respect the other opinion, and recognize that it isn't just what you say that's the only thing that ever matters. That's the problem that we face so much today.   Howard Brown  41:58 Right? Respect. I think Aretha Franklin saying that great. She   Michael Hingson  42:01 did. She did. She's from Motown here. There you go. See? When you moved out to California, and you ended up in Silicon Valley, and so on, who are you working for them?   Howard Brown  42:14 So I moved up, and I worked for this company called Liquid audio that doesn't exist anymore. And it was just iTunes 10 years too early on, there was real audio, there was Mark Cuban's company was called Audio net and then broadcast.com used for a lot of money. And so the company went public and made a lot of money. But it didn't work. The world wasn't ready for it yet to be able to live in this cassette world. It was not ready. I Napster hadn't been invented, mp3 and four hadn't been invented. So it just the adoption rate of being too early. But it still went public a lot. The investors made a ton of money, but they call that failing, failing forward. So I stayed there for a year, I made some money. And I went to another startup. And that startup was in the web hosting space, it was called Naevus. site, it's now won by Time Warner. But at that time, building data centers and hosting racks of computers was very good business. And so I got to be, you know, participate in an IPO. You know, I built built up revenue. And you know, the outsourcing craze now called cloud computing, it's dominated by the folks that like Amazon, and the folks at IBM, and a few others, but mostly, you know, dominated there, where you're basically having lots of blinking lights in a data center, and just making sure that those computers stay up to serve up the pages of the web, the videos, even television, programming, and now any form of communication. So I was, I was early on in that and again, got to go through an IPO and get compensated properly unduly, and, but also my life was out of balance. And so before we were called out for the sperm and had a baby, I transitioned out when Silicon Valley just the pendulum swung the other way, I ended up starting to work at my own nonprofit, I founded it with a couple of Silicon Valley guys called Planet Jewish, and it was still very technologically driven. It was the world's first Community Calendar. This is before Google Calendar, this is in 2000. And we built it as a nonprofit to serve the Jewish community to get more people to come to Jewish events. And I architected the code, and we ran that nonprofit for 17 years. And before calendaring really became free, and very proud of that. And after that, I started a very similar startup with different code called circle builder, and it was serving faith and religions. It was more like private facebook or private online communities. And we had the Vatican as a client and about 25,000 Ministries, churches, and nonprofits using the system. And this is all sort of when Facebook was coming out to you know, from being just an edu or just for college students. And so I built that up as a quite a big business. But unfortunately, I was in Michigan when I started circle builder. I ended up having to close both of those businesses down. One that the revenue was telling off of the nonprofit and also circuit builder wasn't monetizing as quickly or as we needed as well. But I ended up going into my 50 year old colonoscopy, Michael. And I woke up thinking everything was going to be fine. My wife Lisa's holding my hand. And the gastroenterologist said, No, I found something. And when I find something, it's bad news. Well, it was bad news. Stage three colon cancer. Within about 10 days or two weeks, I had 13 and a half inches of my colon removed, plus margins plus lymph nodes. One of the lymph nodes was positive, install a chemo port and then I waited because my daughter had soccer tournaments to travel to but on first week of August in 2016, I started 12 rounds of Rockem sockem chemotherapy called folfox and five Fu and it was tough stuff. So I was back on the juice again, doing chemotherapy and but this time, I wasn't a deer in the headlights, I was a dad, I was a husband. I had been through the trenches. So this time, I was much more of a marine on a mission. And I had these digital tools to reach out for research and for advocacy and for support. Very different at that time. And so I unfortunately failed my chemotherapy, I failed my neck surgery, another colon resection, I failed a clinical trial. And things got worse I became metastatic stage four that means that colon cancer had spread to my liver, my stomach linings called the omentum and peritoneum and my bladder. And I had that same conversation with a doctor in downtown Detroit, at a Cancer Institute and he said, We don't know if we can help you. And if you Dr. Google, it said I had 4% of chances of living about 12 to 18 months and things were dark I was I was back at it again looking looking at the Grim Reaper. But what I ended up doing is research and I did respond to the second line chemotherapy with a little regression or shrinkage. And for that you get more chemotherapy. And then I started to dig in deep research on peritoneal carcinoma which is cancer of the of the of the stomach lining, and it's very tricky. And there's a group called colon town.org that I joined and very informative. I there then met at that time was probably over 100 other people that had had the peritoneal carcinoma, toma and are living and they went through a radical surgery called cytoreduction high pack, where they basically debulk you like a de boning a fish, and they take out all this cancer, they can see the dead and live cells, and then they pour hot chemo in you. And then hot chemo is supposed to penetrate the scanning the organs, and it's supposed to, in theory kill micro cell organism and cancer, although it's still not proven just yet. But that surgery was about a 12 and a half hour surgery in March of 2018. And they call that the mother of all surgeries. And I came out looking like a ghost. I had lost about 60 pounds, and I had a long recovery. It's that one would put Humpty Dumpty back together. It's been now six years. But I got a lot of support. And I am now what's called no evidence of disease at this time, I'm still under surveillance. I was quarterly I just in June, I had my scans and my exams. And I'm now going to buy annual surveillance, which means CAT scans and blood tests. That's the step in the right direction. And so again, I mean, if I think about it, my twin sister saved my life, I had a frozen sperm become a daughter. And again, I'm alive from a stage four diagnosis. I am grateful. I am lucky, and I am blessed. So that's that a long story that the book will basically tell you, but that's where I am today.   Michael Hingson  48:50 And we'll definitely get to the book. But another question. So you had two startups that ran collectively for quite a period of time, what got you involved or motivated to do things in the in the faith arena?   Howard Brown  49:06 So I have to give credit to my wife, Lisa. So we met at the Jewish Federation of Los Angeles at this young leadership group. And then they have like a college fair of organizations that are Jewish support organizations. And one of them happened to be Jewish Big Brothers, now Jewish Brothers and Big Sisters of Los Angeles. Suppose you'd be a great big brother. I was like, well, it takes up a lot of time. I don't know. She's like, you should check it out. So I did. And I became I fill out the application. I went through the background checks, and I actually got to be a Jewish big brother to this young man II and at age 10. And so I have to tell you, one of the best experiences in my life was to become a mentor. And I today roll the clock forward. 29 years in is now close to 40 years old or 39 years old. He's married with a son who's one noble and two wife, Sarah, and we are family. We stayed together past age 18 Seen, and we've continued on. And I know not a lot of people do that. But it was probably one of the best experiences I've ever done. I've gotten so much out of it. Everyone's like, Oh, you did so much for in? Well, he did so much for me and my daughter, Emily calls him uncle and my wife and I are we are his family, his dad was in prison and then passed away and his mom passed away where his family now. And so one of the best experiences. So that's how I kind of got into the Jewish community. And also being in sales I was I ended up being a good fundraiser. And so these nonprofits that live their lifeblood is fundraising dollars. I didn't mind calling people asking them for donations or sitting down over coffee, asking them for donations. So I learned how to do that out in Southern California in Northern California. And I've continued to do that. So that gave me a real good taste of faith. I'm not hugely religious, but I do believe in the community values of the Jewish community. And you get to meet people beyond boards and you get to raise money for really good causes. And so that sort of gave me another foundation to build off of and I've enjoyed doing that as a community sermon for a long time.   Michael Hingson  51:10 I'll bite Where does Ian live today?   Howard Brown  51:13 Okay, well, Ian was in LA when we got matched. I had to move to San Francisco, but I I petitioned the board to keep our match alive because it was scholarship dollars in state right. And went to UC Santa Cruz, Florida State for his master's and got his last degree at Hastings and the Jewish community supported him with scholarships. And in was in very recently was in San Francisco, Oakland area, and now he's lives in South Portland, Oregon.   Michael Hingson  51:39 Ah, so you haven't gotten back to Michigan yet? Although he's getting into colder weather. So there's a chance?   Howard Brown  51:45 Well, let me tell you, he did live with us in Michigan. So using my connections through the Jewish community, I asked if he could interview with a judge from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals a friend of mine, we sat on a on a board of directors for the American Jewish Committee, Detroit. And I said, she's like, well, Howard, I really have to take Michigan kids. I said, You know what? No problem. You decide if he's if he's worthy or not go through your process, but would you take the phone call? So she took the phone call, and I never heard anything. And then Ian called me and he said, I got it. I as a second year loss. Going to be a second year law student. I'm going to be clerking for summer interning and clerking for this judge Leanne white. And again, it just it karma, the payback, it was beautiful. So he lived with us for about four and a half months. And when he came back, and it was beautiful, because Emily was only about four or five years old. And, and he lived with us for that time. And it was beautiful.   Michael Hingson  52:43 But that's really great. That, that you have that relationship that you did the big brother program. And I'm assuming you've been big brother to other people as well.   Howard Brown  52:53 No, no. I have not actually. Because what it did is it trained me to be a dad. So when I had Emily, it was more it was more difficult actually to do that. And so no, Ian has been my one and only match. I mentor a lot of Babson students, and I mentor and get mentored by some cancer patients and, and some big entrepreneurs. Mentorship is a core value of mine. I like to be mentored. And I also like to mentor others. And I think that's, that's what makes the world go round. So when Steve Gates when Bill Gates, his wife, Melinda, just donated 123 million to the overall arching Big Brothers, Big Sisters of America. And that money will filter to all those, I think that that's such a core value. If a young person can have someone that takes interest in them, they can really shape their future and also get a lot out of it. So mentorship is one of my key values. And I hope it's hope it's many of your viewers and yours as well. Michael,   Michael Hingson  53:52 absolutely is I think that we can't do anything if we can't pass on what we've learned and try to help other people grow. I've been a firm believer my entire life of you don't give somebody a fish, you teach them how to fish and however, and wherever that is, it's still the same thing. And we need to teach and impart. And I think that in our own way, every one of us is a teacher and the more we take it seriously, the better it is.   Howard Brown  54:18 Well, I'm now a student not learning podcasting. I learned how to be a book author and I'm learning how to reinvent myself virgin Humpty Dumpty, version two coming out.   Michael Hingson  54:29 So you had been a national cancer survivor advocate and so on. Tell me a little bit about that if you would.   Howard Brown  54:35 So I respect people that want to keep their diagnosis private and their survivorship private. That's not me. I want to be able to help people because if I would have been screened at age 40 or 42, I probably wouldn't have had colon cancer and I was not, but this is a preventable disease and really minorities and indigenous people as they need to get screened more, because that's the highest case of diagnosis for colorectal cancer. But what I think that that's what his needs now it's the second leading killer of cancer right now. And it's an important to get this advocacy out and use your voice. And so I want to use my voice to be able to sound the alarm on getting screening, and also to help people survive. There's I think, 16 million growing to 23 or 4 million by 2030. Cancer survivors out there, cancer diagnosis, it sucks sex all the way around, but it affects more than the patient, it affects your caregiver, it affects your family affects relationships, it affects emotions, physical, and also financial, there is many aspects of survivorship here and more people are learning to live with it and going, but also, quite frankly, I live with in the stage for cancer world, you also live with eminence of death, or desperation to live a little bit longer. You hear people I wish I had one more day. Well, I wish I had time to be able to see my daughter graduate high school, and I did and I cherished it. I'm going to see her graduate college this December and then walk at the Big House here in Michigan, in Ann Arbor in May. And then God willing, I will walk her down the aisle at the appropriate time. And it's good to have those big goals that are important that drive you forward. And so those are the few things that drive me forward.   Michael Hingson  56:28 I know that I can't remember when I had my first colonoscopy. It's been a while. It was just part of what I did. My mother didn't die of colon cancer, but she was diagnosed with colon cancer. She, she went to the doctor's office when she felt something was wrong. And they did diagnose it as colon cancer. She came home my brother was with her. She fell and broke her hip and went into the hospital and passed away a few days later, they did do an operation to deal with repairing her hip. And but I think because of all of that, just the amount that her body went through, she just wasn't able to deal with it. She was 6970. And so it was no I take Yeah, so I was just one of those things that that did happen. She was 71, not 70. But, you know, we've, for a while I got a colonoscopy every five years. And then they say no, you don't need to do it every five years do it every 10 years. The couple of times they found little polyps but they were just little things. There was nothing serious about them. They obviously took them out and autopsy or biopsy them and all that. And no problems. And I don't remember any of it. I slept through it. So it's okay.   Howard Brown  57:46 Great. So the prep is the worst part. Isn't it though? The preps no fun. But the 20 minutes they have you under light anesthesia, they snipped the polyps and away you go and you keep living your life. So that's what I hope for everyone, because I will tell you, Michael, showing through the amount of chemotherapy, the amount of surgeries and the amount of side effects that I have is, is I don't wish that on anyone. I don't wish on anyone. It's not a good existence. It's hard. And quite frankly, it's, I want to prevent about it. And I'm just not talking about colon cancer, get your mammogram for breast cancer, get your check for prostate cancer, you know, self care is vital, because you can't have fun, do your job, work Grow family, if your hell if you're not healthy, and the emotional stuff they call the chemo brain or brain fog and or military personnel refer to it as PTSD. It's real. And you've got to be able to understand that, you know, coming from a cancer diagnosis is a transition. And I'll never forget that my two experiences and I I've got to build and move forward though. Because otherwise it gets dark, it gets lonely, it gets depressing, and then other things start to break down the parts don't work well. So I've chosen to find my happy place on the basketball court be very active in sounding the alarm for as an advocate. And as I never planned on being a book author and now I'm going to be a published author this summer. So there's good things that have come in my life. I've had a very interesting, interesting life. And we're here talking about it now so I appreciate it.   Michael Hingson  59:20 Well tell me about you in basketball seems to be your happy place.   Howard Brown  59:24 So everyone needs to find a happy place. I'll tell you why. The basketball court I've been playing since I was six years old and I was pretty good you know, I'm not gonna go professional. But I happen to like the team sport and I'm a point guard so I'm basically telling people what to do and trash talk and and all that. But I love it a

[Mature themes and violence] A modernization of the story "Hop-Frog" by Edgar Allen Poe, turning it into a 1980s frat house horror movie. A bunch of pranksters find out the joke's on them. Written and produced by Julie Hoverson Cast List Frogger - Brian Lomatewama Lydia - Megan Lane Rex - James Turpin Deanna - Chandra Wade Uno - Justin Charles Buzz - Lothar Tuppan Trey - Danar Hoverson Lucky - Cary Ayers June - Kate Waterous Lisa - Melissa Pang Bob - James Sedgwick Fred - Jonathon del Arroz Dora - Melissa Bartell Kathy - Suzanne Dunn Music by Persson (available on Jamendo)  Editing and Sound:   Julie Hoverson Thanks to Glen Hallstrom for sound assistance Cover Design:  Dennis Hager "What kind of a place is it? Why it's a college locker room, in the classic era of frat-house prank films, can't you tell?" ****************************************************************** POE-etic Justice Loosely adapted from the story "Hop-Frog" by Edgar Allen Poe by Julie Hoverson (19nocturne@live.com) Cast: [Opening credits - Olivia] Frogger Lydia Tripp Deanna Dora Bob, Fred, Kathy, June FRATS: Rex Mason, fraternity head, etc. Uno Buzz Trey Lucky OLIVIA      Did you have any trouble finding it?  What do you mean, what kind of a place is it?  Why, it's a college campus in the nostalgic era of screwball hijinks films, can't you tell?  MUSIC LYDIA     (Quotes from the original story) I never knew anyone so keenly alive to a joke as the king was. He seemed to live only for joking. To tell a good story of the joke kind, and to tell it well, was the surest road to his favor. Thus it happened that his seven ministers were all noted for their accomplishments as jokers. AMB     LOCKER ROOM UNO     Man!  Did you see the look on his face! BUZZ     Like he'd never seen it bald before. FRATS      [Hearty laugh] TREY     That was you guys?  Oh, man.  FROGGER     [muttered] It's gonna itch. UNO     [less chummy] What? FROGGER     [laughs unconvincingly] When the hair grows back.  It itches like a sonofabitch. TREY, UNO, BUZZ     [chuckle] UNO     [pretend serious] And Frogger would know! TREY, UNO, BUZZ     [laugh hysterically] REX     Cut him some slack, dudes.  Frogger's our pal.  He's a funny guy. MUSIC LYDIA     About the refinements, or, as he called them, the 'ghost' of wit, the king troubled himself very little. He had an especial admiration for breadth in a jest, and would often put up with length, for the sake of it. MUSIC REX     Are they gonna get here soon? BUZZ     If Studs and Lucky got everything right. REX     Cool, then.  This is gonna be a laugh riot. BUZZ     When the froshes come walking into the rooms, each thinking they're gonna "get a little", oh yeah. REX     Got someone with a tapedeck in each bathroom? BUZZ     Too right!  We had to borrow an extra one from Delta pi, but that's cool.  It was Deanna made the tapes anyway. REX     Frogger, what'd you get her to say? FROGGER     [sigh, then, putting on a matching tone]  I gave her this script.  Should be funny as hell. BUZZ     Here!  "oh, good!  You got my note!  I hope you don't mind that I'm a little... kinky.  [laughing and having a hard time reading]  I want you to undress and [collapses] REX     What? BUZZ     Gimme a minute!  [laughing, deep breath] undress and put on my underwear.  It's right there on the bed.  BUZZ and REX     [hysterical fit] REX     Not laughing, Frogger? FROGGER     Just saving it til I see their faces. REX     [agreeing chuckle]  That'll be boss.  Hey, you're into all that educated stuff.  What's up with this Woody Allen guy?  BUZZ     That's that little Jewish nerd, right? REX     This chick I was with last week says he's all hilarious, but I watched this movie - well, some of it, I was mostly macking on another hottie, and it was all like whining. FROGGER     You want the brainhead answer or the real life one? REX     Hit me with the smart one. FROGGER     Woody Allen specializes in observational humor - looking at the angst and neuroses inherent in modern life and stepping aside and commenting on them.  BUZZ     [elaborate yawn] FROGGER     But mostly it is just whining. REX     [laughs]  I knew it! SOUND     DISTANT DOOR OPENS BUZZ     Shh!  Here they come! MUSIC LYDIA     I believe the name 'Hop-Frog' was not that given to the dwarf by his sponsors at baptism, but it was conferred upon him, by general consent of the several ministers. MUSIC AMB     PARTY REX     Grab me a brewski Frogger. FROGGER     No problemo. DEANNA     Why "Frogger"?  I mean, that's not like his real name, right? REX     Duh.  You just gotta see him cross a street sometime.  Freaking funny. DEANNA     Why do keep a little toad like that around?  Did you like lose a bet? REX     Nah.  Frogger's pretty frosty, for a complete nerd.  He comes up with some truly awesome pranks.  DEANNA     He would have to.  Just looking at him is like visual herpes. REX     Nah, the guys like having him around, cuz next to a mini weenie like that, we all look like kielbassas.  Not that I don't look good anyway. DEANNA     [chuckles seductively] Yeah, takes a whole can of vienna sausage to measure up to one ball park frank. REX     Plumps when you get it hot, babe. FROGGER     Your beer.  And a cocktail for you. DEANNA     [cold] Thanks. REX     Cool.  Hop along now, dude.  My term paper is due tomorrow. DEANNA     See, that's where it's so much harder to be a girl than a guy. REX     Why?  DEANNA     No matter how smart she was, I couldn't keep a dog like that around.  We'd get a rep.   MUSIC LYDIA     I am not able to say, with precision, from what country Hop-Frog originally came. It was from some barbarous region, however, that no person ever heard of - a vast distance from the court of our king. Hop-Frog, and a young girl very little less dwarfish than himself, had been forcibly carried off from their homes. MUSIC AMB     OUTSIDE LYDIA     Hiya, Tim! FROGGER     [warm] Hey Lydia. LYDIA     You, um, doing anything tonight? FROGGER     Me?  No.  Did you need some help with something? LYDIA     Me?  No.  I was thinking there's a showing of L'annee Derniere a Marienbad in Culver Hall tonight.  And after what you said about the surrealists [falters] I thought maybe-- FROGGER     Like a date? LYDIA     [backing off]  Maybe.  [covering] Or as friends.  I mean, you don't have to pay or anything. FROGGER     No, no!  I'd love to.  I'm just surprised you'd still speak to me.  LYDIA     Because you hang out with the jackasses?  Nah.  I understand.  I wouldn't mind getting on someone's good side.  FROGGER     [deep] It's not worth it.  Really. LYDIA     But I'm lucky - I don't do anything that makes me a target.  Back in Fulton County, I hated being invisible.  Here, though?  It's a blessing. FROGGER     Even in Fulton, I didn't have much of a choice.  Gotta run now.  Rex is planning a big party for the long weekend.  LYDIA     He needs help? FROGGER      Mostly he just wants people to give him ideas that he can take credit for later. MUSIC LYDIA     The king was sitting at his wine; but the monarch appeared to be in a very ill humor. He knew that Hop-Frog was not fond of wine, for it excited the poor cripple almost to madness; and madness is no comfortable feeling. But the king loved his practical jokes, and took pleasure in forcing Hop-Frog to drink. MUSIC ALL FRATS     Chug! Chug! Chug! Chug! FROGGER     [drinking, gasping] REX     Awesome. FROGGER     [coughing] BUZZ     Weenie. ALL FRATS     [laugh] FROGGER     [barely contained anger]  Keep 'em coming. ALL FRATS     [approval] REX     Take a breather, dude.  Mellow out first.  Besides, before you kiss the sky, we need your brain. FROGGER     [breathing deep, trying not to get sick]  What do you expect it to do? ALL      [laugh] REX     We heard that Epsilon Omega is having a toga party. ALL     Toga! Toga! Toga! Toga! REX     Shh!  We're pissed we didn't think of it first.  UNO     Very pissed. REX     Since we don't want to look like copycatting dildoes, we need to come up with a better party.  TREY     And quick - it has to be Friday. LUCKY     Their party is Saturday. BUZZ     And it has to be awesome. UNO     And chicks have to be nearly naked. REX     Well? FROGGER     Hmm.  Garden of Eden. BUZZ     We don't want any bible crap-- FROGGER     You wanted less clothes than togas. UNO     That's the dumbest-- REX     Hold on.  Are we talking fig leaves and stuff?  [considering] Hmm... UNO     I ain't gluing nothing to MY Johnson. FROGGER     Paint the bikini? TREY     What? FROGGER     Get a bunch of tempera paint, have everyone arrive in bikinis, lay out a bunch of tarps and paint each other.  REX     You mean paint ON each other, right? FROGGER     Duh.  I would suggest finger painting. REX     [considering] Yeah. FROGGER     And then everyone has to shower off... REX     [up]  Yeah!  That is so boss!  Half naked chicks, AND you get to put your hands all over them.  Frogger, you are the MAN. MUSIC LYDIA     On some grand state occasion-I forgot what-the king determined to have a masquerade.  Hop-Frog, in especial, was so inventive in the way of getting up pageants, suggesting novel characters, and arranging costumes, for masked balls, that nothing could be done, it seems, without his assistance. MUSIC AMB     OUTSIDE LYDIA     Hey Tim! FROGGER     Lydia!  Hey. LYDIA     [amused] Is this your idea? FROGGER      What? SOUND     PAPER FROGGER     "you are cordially invited to a bikini painting party--"  Uh, no.  LYDIA     Hmm.  Well, someone invited me. FROGGER     [up] No!  I mean, don't come.  Those guys are dicks, and-- LYDIA     I wasn't planning to, unless you were asking. FROGGER     Good. LYDIA     I'm not much for drinking - or being around a bunch of drunks. FROGGER     Good! LYDIA     I suppose... I suppose you're kind of stuck there? FROGGER     I have to be there for a while.  Until everyone's drunk enough that I can slip out. LYDIA     Let's meet up later, then.  SOUND     SHE WALKS AWAY LYDIA     [calling back] Maybe I'll even let you paint me. FROGGER     I-- uh-- okay. TREY     Dude.  FROGGER     [gasp of shock] TREY     Nice little number.  I bet you get her out of the glasses and baggy sweater and she's a total fox. FROGGER     [desperately lying]  Nah.  She's got no tits at all.  Just tissue. TREY     Damn.  Chicks are such fakers. FROGGER     [relieved sigh] MUSIC LYDIA     Hereupon the dwarf laughed (the king was too confirmed a joker to object to any one's laughing). Moreover, he avowed his perfect willingness to swallow as much wine as desired. The monarch was pacified. SOUND     PARTY, LOTS OF LAUGHING, DISCO MUSIC REX     Ni-i-ice.  Blondes look good in green. JUNE     [GIGGLES] REX     But are you a natural blonde? JUNE     Only my bikini knows. REX     Maybe it will tell me later... JUNE     [giggles] REX     See ya.  Hey Frogger.  I notice your hands are clean. FROGGER     Just - um- came from the bathroom. REX     Hmm.  Beauty idea about giving each guy a different color and starting a contest to see what girl can get the most colors. FROGGER     Deanna's got quite a rainbow going. REX     Is that a crack? FROGGER     Huh?  No - just admiration. REX     Ah, new guests.  Gotta mingle. LISA     [giggle] Oh, look at you!  Are you someone's little brother? FROGGER     You ever hear the phrase "Say Hello to my leetle friend"? LISA      Yeah? FROGGER     That's me. LISA     [wide-eyed] You said that? FROGGER     [sighs] No that's Scarface.  I'm "the leetle friend". LISA     [giggles] LYDIA     [off, calling]  Oh, there he is! FROGGER     Oh shit.  Excuse me. MUSIC LYDIA     There was a dead silence for about half a minute, during which the falling of a leaf, or of a feather, might have been heard. MUSIC FROGGER     [hurried, whispered] What are you doing here? LYDIA     Didn't you call?  Dora, at the dorm said-- FROGGER     No, I didn't.  You need to get out of here. LYDIA     [puzzled, but laughing]  Why?  It looks kind of fun. FROGGER     [frustrated noise]  No!  They're gonna-- BUZZ     I see someone wearing too much clothes! LYDIA     Huh? LUCKY     Did you bring your bathing suit, foxy lady? FROGGER     She's not here for the party.  It's a mistake. LYDIA     [annoyed] No it's not.  TREY     Is this cuz of what you said about her?     FROGGER     Just drop it.  You gotta go. LYDIA     [sharp] What did you say? FROGGER     Nothing.  C'mon, let's bail. TREY     He said you got no boobs under there. LYDIA     What?  What is wrong with you?  God, Tim, I thought you were my friend. FROGGER     Lydia!  Don't!  I can explain-- TREY     Want to prove him wrong? BUZZ     Of course, if you don't have a suit‑‑ SOUND     RUSTLING LYDIA     Actually, I only have a one-piece. FROGGER     Don't! LYDIA     Chill out. SOUND     RUSTLING AS SHE TAKES OFF HER TOP ALL FRATS     [approving noises] TREY     [walking away] Why don't I start - I am curious.  And I'm yellow. FROGGER     [weak] No... REX     C'mon dude.  Bottoms up. SOUND     RATTLE OF ICE IN GLASS MUSIC LYDIA     Poor fellow! his large eyes gleamed, rather than shone; for the effect of wine on his excitable brain was not more powerful than instantaneous. He placed the goblet nervously on the table, and looked round upon the company with a half-insane stare. They all seemed highly amused at the success of the king's 'joke.' MUSIC SOUND     PAINT SLOSH LYDIA     [laughing uncomfortably] That's cold! TREY     I could warm you up a bit.  Maybe a hot shower.  I'll scrub your back. LYDIA     [uncomfortable] I didn't say stop. TREY     I haven't seen you at one of these before.  What are you, a hermit? LYDIA     Just busy studying. TREY     [suggestive] Do you study... anatomy? LYDIA     I'm an english major. TREY     This--[he's painting on her] is the bicep... LYDIA     Yeah, I know.  TREY     And this-- is the [drawn out] pec-to-ral... LYDIA     [gasp of shock]  I think I'm - out of my depth.  I should go. TREY     Nonsense.  There's seven more colors to go.  Everybody wants to get his hands on you. LYDIA     No. No, look, this was a bad idea. TREY     This-- is the gluteus maximus. LYDIA     Stop! SOUND     SLAPPING NOISE TREY     Oh come on.  You don't want to leave this masterpiece unfinished, do you? LYDIA     Let go of me! REX     [overplayed] OK, what's going on? TREY     Models.  They're so high strung. REX     You should have a drink.  Frogger did. LYDIA     I just want to go. REX     [raising his voice]  Hear that everyone?  She just wants to go. ALL     [everyone laughing] DEANNA     Who does she think she is? ALL     [more laughing, mostly guys] SOUND     POUNDING ON A DOOR FROGGER     [in closet]  Stop!  No! REX     You know, these picnic bottles were a really good idea. SOUND     SQUIRTS PAINT LYDIA     [surprised shriek] ALL     [laugh]       LYDIA     [crying] Stop! REX     Well, being the king, I had her first.  Who's next? BUZZ     I got red, how bout I KETCHUP! [squirting] ALL     [laughing] FROGGER     [in closet]  Nooooo! MUSIC LYDIA     The tyrant seemed quite at a loss what to do or say - how most becomingly to express his indignation. At last, he pushed the girl violently from him, and threw the contents of the brimming goblet in her face. MUSIC SOUND     BREATHING IN A CLOSED SPACE.  OCCASIONAL THUMPS AS FROGGER BEATS HIS HEAD AGAINST THE WALL; the party has run down SOUND     DOOR OPENS REX     Damn.  Almost forgot about you.  C'mon out.  Everyone's all gone home. SOUND     FROGGER SCRAMBLES TO HIS FEET, THUMP AS HE SLAMS REX AGAINST THE WALL REX     Unh! FROGGER     You bastard!  You sonofabitch! REX     C'mon dude.  It was just a joke.  No big deal. SOUND     DRINKS FROM A BOTTLE REX     Here.  mellow out. SOUND     OFFERS THE BOTTLE FROGGER     No big deal?  You- you--! REX     Have a drink and get frosty, dude.  Or I might forget I have a big paper coming up and that you need fingers if you're gonna write it for me. SOUND     FROGGER SNATCHES THE BOTTLE, DRINKS DEEP REX     There you go.  That's a pal. SOUND     FROGGER THROWS THE BOTTLE ACROSS THE ROOM, BOTTLE SMASHES REX     [laughs heartily]  Yeah!  You cool? FROGGER     [grim, teeth gritted] I'm completely frozen. MUSIC LYDIA     Hop-Frog endeavored, as usual, to get up a jest in reply to these advances from the king; but the effort was too much. MUSIC SOUND     SHOWER RUNNING SOUND     PHONE RINGS, DISTANT, IS PICKED UP DORA     Yello?  [up]  Lydia! LYDIA     [yelling, still upset] I'm in the shower! SOUND     A MOMENT, THEN POUNDING ON THE DOOR DORA     It's that guy you like.  He wants to talk. LYDIA     Tell him to sit on it! MUSIC LYDIA     "The beauty of the game," continued Hop-Frog, "lies in the fright it occasions among the women." MUSIC TREY     Man, he went total meltdown. BUZZ     His eyes were all bugging out. UNO     Gets all squeaky, like a little bitty piggie. REX     Shh,  Here he comes.  [up]  Frogger, my man.  Have a brewski - we need you at the top of your game tonight. FROGGER     Whatever.  [drinks] REX     Jeez, check out Mr. Dickweed.  He needs to mellow out.  Bring on Mr. Cuervo.  SOUND     LIQUID POUR FROGGER      Just tell me what you need. REX     Nuh-uh.  Not until you got a good buzz.  [serious]  Drink. FROGGER     [sighs] MUSIC LYDIA     "What do you mean by that? Ah, I perceive. You are Sulky, and want more wine. Here, drink this!" and the king poured out another goblet full and offered it to the cripple, who merely gazed at it, gasping for breath. MUSIC REX     I don't know how we didn't hear about it sooner, but Epsilon Omega is doing this medival banquet thing - and it's tonight!  It's sposed to be totally off the hook, with jousting and shit. FROGGER     [muttered] Jousting's on horseback. UNO     We gotta DO something!  BUZZ     We gotta get in there and mess with them! LUCKY     Epsilon Omega are such douches, we gotta show em up! REX     But see, they won't let anyone in that ain't in a costume.  YOU need to get us in there. FROGGER     You can't just rent some stuff? UNO     All the shops are sold out! TREY     We're like the only ones on the entire campus that didn't get an invite! LUCKY     The pussies! REX     And we gotta show them up at their own damn game!  So it's got be really really medival.  Come on! UNO     And frogger, man, you're the king of this crap - the bikini painting party was completely the bomb! FROGGER     [grim]  That.  Right.  Pour me another one. MUSIC LYDIA     The monarch was pacified; and having drained another bumper with no very perceptible ill effect, Hop-Frog entered at once, and with spirit, into the plans for the masquerade. MUSIC FROGGER     There is this thing-- BUZZ     Yeah? FROGGER     Something really authentic and medival-- LUCKY     Dude!  Just spit it out! FROGGER     I'm assuming you don't want to be lepers-- TREY     Like the cat?  I'd rather be a tiger. FROGGER     No!  Leper.  Like all grody zombie-looking people. REX     We could do that. FROGGER     But this will be better. REX     Yeah? TREY     Dude, zombies are medival? FROGGER     [sigh]  No.  No zombies.  And it has to be a costume we can put together really fast. REX     Duh.  Party's tonight. FROGGER     Back in the olden days, they had all sorts of weird party stuff they did.  And one of them was something called the eight chained orangutangs.  BUZZ     Orangutangs?  Man they rock!  [makes farting sound]  That's like Clyde in Every which way but loose, eh?  ALL     [start making monkey noises] FROGGER     It does take eight guys, though... REX     No problemo.  There's five of us here, plus Ricky, Finn, and uh - Marco. FROGGER     [dark] Exactly the ones I'd'a suggested. MUSIC LYDIA     "The chains are for the purpose of increasing the confusion by their jangling. You are supposed to have escaped, en masse, from your keepers. Your majesty cannot conceive the effect produced, at a masquerade, by eight chained ourang-outangs!" MUSIC ALL     [making monkey noises] FROGGER     BUT we have to get you dressed up!  Come on! REX     [commanding] Shut up!  Listen to Frogger.  Save the monkey shit for later. LUCKY     Yeah, man - monkeys throw their shit.  We should have something to throw! BUZZ     I'm calling the costume shop. FROGGER     You can't. BUZZ     Who says? FROGGER     You want to be all historical, right? REX     Duh. FROGGER     OK, well they didn't have snazzy costumes way back when. TREY     What did they do? FROGGER     Covered themselves in tar, then rolled in flax. BUZZ     What the hell is flax? FROGGER     Fibers.  Looks like hair. LUCKY     Tar is gross.  It never comes off. FROGGER     You do it OVER clothes.  Like a track suit. TREY     You expect us to get all tarred up and roll around in hair?  You're a complete-- REX     Genius.  We break into the party like this, and those dicks at Epsilon Omega will never be able to live it down. MUSIC LYDIA     The king and his ministers were first encased in tight-fitting stockinet shirts and drawers. They were then saturated with tar. A long chain was now procured. First, it was passed about the waist of the king, and tied, then about another of the party, and also tied; then about all successively, in the same manner, making a circle. MUSIC SOUND     CLANKING, SHUFFLING FEET ALL FRAT     [muffled giggling] SOUND     PASSING A BOTTLE REX     Shh.  Watch out for the post, dumbass!  TREY     There's a buttload of posts in an old warehouse. UNO     Man, it's kind of cold. FROGGER     [dark] Don't worry - you'll be warm later. SOUND     MORE CLANKING FROGGER     I checked out the layout earlier.  They've got a horseshoe of tables surrounding the middle of the room, with knights and wenches and all seated on the outside.  You should go round the outside of the room first, making trouble- TREY     Grabbing chicks - "not my fault!  Orangutans like boobies!" BUZZ     Beep-beep. FROGGER     [exasperated] Yeah.  [up]  But then get to the center of the room, and I'll come in and get the crowd going. REX     Dude, you are truly the man. SOUND     DOOR OPENS, CLANKING STARTS LOUD ALL FRATS     [monkey noises] SOUND     [distant screams] MUSIC LYDIA     The eight ourang-outangs, taking Hop-Frog's advice, waited patiently until midnight before making their appearance. No sooner had the clock ceased striking, however, than they rushed, or rather rolled in, all together-for the impediments of their chains caused most of the party to fall, and all to stumble as they entered. MUSIC SOUND     WALKIE TALKIE NOISE FROGGER     [hushed] Ok, they're in.  Wait for my signal. SOUND     CRACKLE OF STATIC LYDIA     [almost unrecognizable, on air] Gotcha. FROGGER     We've got about five minutes... MUSIC LYDIA     The excitement among the masqueraders was prodigious, and filled the heart of the king with glee. As had been anticipated, there were not a few of the guests who supposed the ferocious-looking creatures to be beasts of some kind in reality, if not precisely ourang-outangs. MUSIC SOUND     [screams, laughing, monkey noises - behind doors] SOUND     DOOR CRASHES OPEN FROGGER     [squeaky british "jester" voice] Good folk! SOUND     [some quieting, ape noises still going on] SOUND     MICROPHONE SQUELCH FROGGER     Good people! SOUND     [quiet] FROGGER     Good people!  I spy beasts in our midst! FRATS     [ape noises] CROWD     [ripple of laughter] FROGGER     they must have escaped from a keeper! REX     Dude, is that my mister microphone? FROGGER     [not on mike] Shh. [on mike, playing it big] It speaks!  Perhaps it is merely a man in a fabulous costume? FRATS     [hooting monkey noises] SOUND     CROWD APPLAUDS FROGGER     Leave them to me!  I fancy I know them.  If I can only get a good look, I can soon tell who they are! SOUND     CHAIN RATTLES FROGGER     Look at these muscles.  If not a beast, then a beast of a man, don't you think? FRATS     [very butch monkey noises] FROGGER     Perhaps there is someone here who can help me identify them.  You, Milady? NOTE     [frogger is using the mike on the people he's talking with, but the frats are just yelling] SOUND     SLOW MACHINE NOISE SNEAKS IN THROUGHOUT, A BIT OF CHAINS, TOO DORA     Me? FROGGER     I think you know that big one in front.  Do you not? LUCKY     [chuckling] Oh, yeah, she knows me.  If you know what I mean. DORA     [furious] He got me drunk and took topless pictures of me, that he posted all over the dorm! LUCKY     What's a dog like her doing at an Epsilon party? DORA     You ... you bastard! FROGGER     That's a big clue, but I still don't quite recognize them.  Maybe you, sir? BOB     [stuttring]  They - all of them - cornered me in the locker room and pelted me with jockstraps! BUZZ     Dude, it was a joke! BOB     Every day?  For a semester!  It wasn't funny! TREY     It was to us. FROGGER     And you, fair maiden? KATHY     [crying]  They tied me up and covered me in dip at one of their parties. UNO     What's so bad about that? KATHY     I got a rash!  And a yeast infection! REX     Okay, we're out of here.  This ain't funny any more. SOUND     CHAINS RATTLE, A COUPLE OF STEPS FRATS     [reaction noises - ugh, hey, whoa! - as they trip, get pulled up short] UNO     What the crap? REX     The chains're caught on something.  Frogger!  Help us out here. FROGGER     [annoucning] How blind they are, eh, gentle folks? SOUND     APPLAUSE MUSIC LYDIA     With the rapidity of thought, he had inserted the hook from which the chandelier had been wont to depend; and, in an instant, by some unseen agency, the chandelier-chain was drawn so far upward as to take the hook out of reach, and, as an inevitable consequence, to drag the ourang-outangs together in close connection. MUSIC SOUND     MORE CHAINS, STRUGGLES BUZZ     We're stuck! REX     The chains got caught on that hook thing!  Can you reach it? TREY     Give me a boost! SOUND     MACHINE NOISE, HOOK RAISING REX     What the crap? UNO     We're chained at the waist, dumbass, how far you think you're gonna get climbing? FROGGER     Little do they know that this party was thrown in their [sour] honor.  Is it not ironic that they were so caught up in their own amusement they didn't recognize a single one of the people they've wronged? REX     You are so dead, you little shitball.  The minute we get out of here, your life will go to hell. FROGGER     My life has been hell, you evil douchbags!  You think I liked being your little funny guy - your jester?  You think I helped you because I thought it was fun?  Every joke I helped with was like ground glass in my soul, and I still feel like I should be hanging up there with you.  [to crowd]  One more notch, and they'll be on tiptoe.  What do you think? CROWD     [roars approval] FROGGER     It's not as funny when you're the butt of the joke, is it? UNO     Dude, just cut it out.  We've learned our lesson, and shit. man. FROGGER     Lets see what the crowd thinks!  CROWD     [booo] FROGGER     Sorry.  Can't let it go just yet.  How about you, milord?  What's your beef? SOUND     HAND OVER THE MIKE NOISE FRED     [not on mike] They're gonna bury us. FROGGER     [not on mike] Not a problem.  C'mon.  Think of it as group therapy. SOUND     MIKE UNCOVERED FRED     [quick, ashamed] They duct taped my - my butt. FROGGER     [sincere] I'm very sorry. SOUND     CROWD SUBDUED APPLAUSE SOUND     ANOTHER CRANK OF CHAIN FRATS     [whoa!  They've been pulled off the ground] MUSIC LYDIA     The jester suddenly uttered a shrill whistle; and the chain flew violently up - dragging with it the dismayed and struggling ourang-outangs, and leaving them suspended in mid-air. MUSIC FROGGER     Ah, ha! I begin to see who these "people" are now!  But it's so dark in here.  Give me a tiki torch, someone. DORA     Here. FRED     Watch out - they'll kick you! FROGGER     They could.  But then they'll start swinging.  It's not fun, hung up by your waist, is it? UNO     You little shit! TREY     Your ass is grass, man. SOUND     STRUGGLING, CHAIN CREAKING, SWINGING FROGGER     [to the crowd]  How many of us have been hung like this - by you, or those like you? CROWD     [agrees] FROGGER     [over elaborate]  Watch out!  Don't swing too close to the fire! SOUND     FIRE CATCHES WITH A WHOOMPH FRATS     [screaming] CROWD     [screams] FROGGER     Whoops! MUSIC LYDIA     "I now see distinctly." he said, "what manner of people these maskers are. They are a great king and his seven privy-councillors, - a king who does not scruple to strike a defenceless girl and his seven councillors who abet him in the outrage. As for myself, I am simply Hop-Frog, the jester-and this is my last jest." MUSIC AMB     OUTSIDE, NIGHT SOUND     DISTANT FIRE TRUCKS LYDIA     I can't even feel sorry for them. FROGGER     Nope. LYDIA     It helps, to know I'm not alone. FROGGER     You should never feel alone.  I'm here. LYDIA     I mean, that they hurt lots of people. FROGGER     [self-loathing] And I helped.  Too many times.  LYDIA     They would have done it anyway. FROGGER     I can't forgive myself. LYDIA     Could I? FROGGER     Could you what? LYDIA     Could I forgive you? FROGGER     [a bit teary] That would be a good start. MUSIC LYDIA     It is supposed that Trippetta, stationed on the roof, had been the accomplice of her friend in his fiery revenge, and that, together, they effected their escape. MUSIC THE END ...

This week's conversation with Lisa Evans fits under the P of Promotion of the Humane Marketing Mandala. We are talking about telling the stories that matter for your business. As you'll hear in the episode there is a fine line between being vulnerable in telling your story and oversharing. Lisa is the Director of Speaking Savvy and the Lead Trainer of the Soft Skills Academy. She is a Certified Speaking Professional, Certified Virtual Presenter, TEDx Speaker Coach, Host of the Business Chat Podcast, and Radio Show Host. She has been coaching clients to become stand-out presenters and speakers for over 10 years and her area of expertise is helping senior leaders to tell better business stories. Before becoming a coach Lisa spent over two decades as a health professional and began her career as a midwife. One of her clients named her The Story Midwife and it kinda stuck! In this episode, you'll learn about telling the stories that matter for your business as well as...   How to know which stories matter (every story has a reason and a season) Your origin story and ways to tell it Lisa's personal story and how a health setback led her to be an exceptional speaker Encouragement and tips to start with storytelling And much more… Lisa's Resources   Lisa's Website Lisa's Podcast: Business Chat with Lisa Evans Get a complimentary 30-minute coaching call with Lisa Connect with Lisa on: Twitter Facebook Instagram LinkedIn Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] [00:06:00] [00:07:00] hi, Lisa, how are you today?  Lisa: Hi, Sarah. I'm delighted to be here.  Sarah: Oh, I'm so happy to have this conversation. It's kind of, is there a second or third? At least I know that I was on your podcast earlier. And so now I get the pleasure to have you online, which is wonderful. And we chose this topic of storytelling, which I know. Close to your heart. And so I wanted to know if you have always considered yourself a good storyteller. Tell us about that.  Lisa: Yeah, well, I've [00:08:00] always considered myself a storyteller. Not necessarily a good storyteller, mainly because of my age, because definitely before the internet, we didn't even have a color TV until dad bought one home for the Montreal Olympics. So that was a long time ago. So I grew up. On stories when I was little. And then that carried on into my, of late teenage years and early twenties when I began my nurse training. So when I became a nurse at a young age, I was 17 and a half. We didn't have counseling, we didn't have psychology services. We had to suck it up and get on with it. So when we had a bad day and we saw a lot of trauma, which you do when you're a nurse who working in acute care, the only outlet we really had in order. Debrief with our colleagues about our day was through stories. So stories also can be used to heal as well. So I guess that I became a natural storyteller and it was then later in life that I joined. [00:09:00] The pieces of the puzzle together and got more interested in helping entrepreneurs and business owners and even large organizations in how to tell several different stories, their own story, their signature story, their leadership story, and the story about their brands and their services and, and products. So I've definitely learned how to tell stories better, but I think we're. We are all storytellers. We all have the, the, the information that we need. We've got a lifetime of, of stories. It's just learning how to get those out and feel comfortable sharing the stories. Wow. Sarah: I'm yeah. I'm so curious uh, about one thing as well, because when I heard you speaking, I was thinking. What about what does reading have to do with storytelling? Right? Because when we're reading, we're not actually well telling a story, but we're definitely absorbing stories. So were you also a, a big reader? Lisa: I was a big reader. And I think that today definitely reading helps you to experience the [00:10:00] characters and the landscapes and the plot and the, and the story in a very sensory way. And of course we need that sensory language, but I think that we need to always be mindful that writing is, is very, very different to, to speaking. And when somebody. Reads from a page or speaks something that they have completely memorized or that it's been written to be read. It doesn't sound right when it's, when it's spoken. So definitely yes. Read to immerse yourself in, in characters and, and sensory sensory language, but never read your story out loud. Sarah: Mm, that, yeah. Okay. That's interesting. So, so it helps to tell better stories, I guess, because we. You know, we kind of, I noticed that when writing my own book it helps to, I'm a, I'm an avid reader. Like I read so many books just like you, I know that you are always posting about the latest books you're reading. Yeah. And, and, and yeah, I think [00:11:00] reading books definitely also then helps you with writing because you just kind of know. You know, the turns of phrases you just kind of yeah. It, it just kind of flows better, I guess, as compared to if you weren't reading at all. But yeah, yeah. With the storytelling that it's not the same. If you read your story,  Lisa: obviously. And you definitely don't need to be a good writer, cuz that can be a barrier for many people. A lot of my stories, I don't even write down, I just use my phone. I hit voice record. I've got an idea for a story. I'll just speak it into a voice memo. I might be walking around or doing something. I get an idea in my head or I'll draw it. I, I like doing little graphics. So if, if you don't consider yourself to be a good writer, Doesn't mean to say you can't share stories. I  Sarah: think that's a good reminder for people because sometimes we do get stuck with the, you do writing, right. And, and another thing people tell me, [00:12:00] tell me about my books is like, it's an easy read. And, and so at the beginning I was like, is that a compliment or like a hidden criticism, but I do kind of write, like I would speak. Right? Yeah. And so I'm not a, you know, a novel writer. Definitely not. And so I think for stories, if we think about, you know, social media, it, these stories need to be told exactly how you would tell them, I guess, in spoken words, would you agree? Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Makes it more authentic. Makes it more real. And I think that's definitely a, a compliment, sir. If somebody says that it's an easy read. that's good. Nobody wants a hard read that they've got to struggle to get their head around. So that's awesome. Well done.  Sarah: thank you. Yeah. Like the inner critic voice kind of like, well, I wanted it to be sophisticated but, but yeah, no, that's not who I am. How do we then [00:13:00] know which stories to tell? Because I think I even notice myself sitting, you know, I use mainly LinkedIn and so I sit there and go, okay, what kind of story can I tell? And you're surrounded by stories all day long, but then when it comes to actually sharing them, your brain kind of blocks you. And you're like, well, which one.  Lisa: Yeah. I, I think the best thing that I like to do, and I encourage others to do is to start a story bank, just like a piggy bank. You're collecting your, your stories. There may only be little, little snippets of information or anecdotes or examples, and you just store them up somewhere. Some people use a note. Book or an index card system or an app like Evernote or, or OneNote. And so you're capturing your, your stories. And then when you want a story down the track to illustrate a particular point, you've got lots of material at hand and, you know, stories have got a, they've got a reason. They've got a season and. The most [00:14:00] important thing about a story is it's gotta be ready to tell it's gotta be ripe. It's gotta be that perfect moment because there may be stories in our lives that for whatever reason, we're not yet ready to share. And I think that we've always got to remember that we are the curators of our own stories and we get to choose which stories to tell and who we are gonna share them with. But the most important thing of all is. The story that we're telling ourselves. So we've gotta get rid of our own negative narratives and those stories that don't help us in order to be able to step up and speak and share whether that's marketing your book or writing your book or believing yourself, or putting out things in business. So we've really got two sorts of stories. We've got our internal stories and our own narratives. And we've got the stories that, that we share. So I think it can be hard just like it can be hard to sit in front of a blank workbook and, and come up with some [00:15:00] writing, same with finding stories. But if you, if you start collecting stories, like have a, have a bank of them, then you'll, you'll never run out. Sarah: Hmm. Yeah, that's a good idea. It could be, could be like a notebook, but it could also be like snippets. You know, if you're more into using online tools, it could be Evernote or whatever Trello  Lisa: board yeah. You using, or even Pinterest or voice notes, you know, voice notes are great because they sync across all your devices. It doesn't matter where you are. You can hit record and just do a 62nd voice note and give it a, a tag. Or a keyword and you'll be able to, to find it again. So that's the important thing, particularly as, as you get older is you, you might see something or hear something, oh, that that'll make a great story and you forget all about it. So not only you wanna quickly capture the essence of that story, but you also also want to take a moment and tune into how that story made you. Mm, because it's, it's that [00:16:00] emotion that, that has that impact. So you ask yourself, you know, if you see something and you, and you think, you know, that's not right, or isn't that wonderful, you know, it's evoked an emotional response in you. So it's important when we capture our story to also put. And I felt joy or I felt gratitude, or I felt frustrated or angry about something that's that's happening. Cuz that will also help you when you are then telling your story. You're reliving that story and that experience to dial into that emotion that you felt at the time. Sarah: Yeah. So good. So many different things I wanna kind of go back to that you just said. So the first thing is obviously the emotion. Yeah. That's where we connect. Right? If we're telling a, a story in, for example, what I sometimes see is, is, you know, stories being told in the third person, like on someone's website, you know, the about page, for example, if it, if I read an about page and instant in the third person, [00:17:00] There is no emotional connection. I don't feel connected to the person. And so I think that would probably be a, be a first, I don't know if you agree at this telling your story, obviously, and your first person.  Lisa: Absolutely. Yeah. Present tense. First person is always better. And, and often when I'm coaching people in their, in their story and we might do the, you know, stop, stop, start when I'm coaching them, they might say something like and then we broke up and I moved to America. I go, hang on, hang on. You broke up. How did you feel? Mm. Yeah, I was devastated. I couldn't stop crying for a week. You know, they were brushing over that emotion. Right. And, and that's the important part. Even if you don't, don't decide to share at all, but you've still gotta think about, okay. How did you feel when you got that call and the breakup happened? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.  Sarah: That's so good. I think you're right. We're we. Wanting to kind of quickly get our story out there. And so we [00:18:00] just kind of share headlines and when you read it, it's like, you know, nothing, nothing happens where on the other hand, you don't have to exaggerate. I as the humane marketer, I'm always careful also about, you know, using pain points in, in, in stories and things like that. So you don't have to exaggerate feelings either and, you know, make people, people feel bad or, or, or worse. But yeah, that's how we connect is with the emotion and with the feelings. The other thing you brought up is this idea I guess kind of a vulnerability, because you said there's a, every story has a reason and a season, and I love that. It's such a good way to remember. You know, what's the reason of the story. And is it the right season, I guess, to tell this story and, and that goes with, you know, timely, current events out there, I guess, but it's also for ourselves. Do I feel like I am [00:19:00] willing to share this story or, or not? So what's your take on vulnerability and probably also kind of this trend of sharing too much information to get something. Yeah,  Lisa: that has become very apparent, you know, the work of the wonderful Brene brown Brene brown has been around for a long time, but her work was popularized through the Netflix series. And I think that your vulnerability became the word. And I think there was a very fine line between vulnerability and overs. We do need to be ready to tell our story. If you are standing in front of a group of people and you cannot get through your story without breaking down and falling apart, probably not the right time to tell your story, you probably haven't done the inner work. You haven't done enough. Growing you haven't done enough healing. Now we can get caught off guard and our emotions can bubble to the surface, but generally you've gotta have done the inner work. And then I [00:20:00] also see I've been in, in audiences where somebody's done the inner work and they feel that their story is ready to share, but they haven't really thought about how their story is potentially going to land and impact. With the audience. We don't want to trigger our audience and leave them walking out, feeling low and feeling, feeling horrid. So we've gotta carefully craft that story that even if we're sharing a story that doesn't have a happy ending and that's life, not every story has to have a, a happy ending, but we are leaving the audience with something to take away that. Inspirational or poignant or has a real meaning and purpose to it. So every story does need to have a, a, a carry out. Yeah. So I think that there's a very fine line with the vulnerability and, and the potentially oversharing, but at the end of the day, it's gotta feel right for you because if you're up. In front of an audience, whether it's in front of a [00:21:00] camera or on stage. And you feel as though you've gotta push yourself to be more vulnerable, you're going to look awkward and uncomfortable. If that's how you feel inside people are going to see that. And then if you are up the front looking awkward and uncomfortable, how does that make your audience feel? They feel awkward and uncomfortable too. Right? So it's really picking. Right time. It's tough.  Sarah: Yeah. And I, I totally agree with you and I, I would go even further and say you know, there there's been marketers, unfortunately also who, who kind of are in this authenticity trend and then use stories with a lot of vulnerability in order to get something, to, you know, sell more of them or sell more of their coaching or sell, you know? And so that's also not. What we want from our or audience, we don't want to use our story in a way that gets something we want to [00:22:00] yes. Connect with our audience, make sure that they resonate with our story, but not in a manipulative way. This, like I've seen this trend where marketers could start telling all these old stories Just because, you know one guy started telling that he was abused when he was seven years old and then all of a sudden it was like one after the other. And, and so you start to actually question the truth of these stories, which is sad because you know, who knows maybe they were all true, but it kind of became this thing where we felt like what's going on here. This is a marketer. Is he doing this? You know, for a reason and for the wrong reason,  Lisa: maybe. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, these days people have got more of a BS meter that they can possibly sense when one of those stories is, is coming and, and people switch off to that these days, I believe.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, you're right. The BS meter the [00:23:00] last, last two years for sure has gone, gone up a lot. And so yeah, I I'm just, and I think that's also, I told you before we started recording I'm kind of not a big fan anymore of this idea of the, the hero arc story, you know, where they started to feel like. All the same to me where, you know, there's a struggle, we overcome it. And then there's a huge, happy ending. And now a millionaire. And I don't have any problems anymore to me, even if that's true, that's just not an interesting story to me anymore. And, and yet it's used and recommended in coaching a lot. So what's your take on, on kind of these artificial stories?  Lisa: Yeah, I think that it definitely helps to have a structure to your story and to have a framework, particularly if you are learning to tell stories, it, it does give you some, some guidelines. You don't have to follow the arc from one point [00:24:00] to another. You can start at. At any point, really? I think that definitely a story does need to have an element of tension. A story does need to have some conflict and some change. So every story is evidence of a transformation that's taken place. But the thing is, people think about struggle on conflict as huge people think about transformation. As I became a millionaire, I climbed Everest. I conquered the world. No, it can be a very small transformation. It can be somebody said something. And that made you think about your own behavior or your actions, and you decided to do things differently or you decided to apologize. That's a transformation. So it doesn't have to be huge. You don't have to have a rags to richest story to make a great storyteller there. The best stories are in the simple, the best stories are in the ordinary. If you think about a trip to the supermarket, particularly in the tough times that we're in now, you know, [00:25:00] you never get a whole lot when you're just getting to go out these days, a ride on public transport, an interaction with a stranger, a customer service experience. They're all. Possible stories that you can, that you can tell. And we certainly want to move away from stories that are all about me. Nobody wants to hear an all about me story. Nobody cares about your story until they care how much your story helps them. Right. So we also need to be mindful of, of that. What's the point, what's the purpose of your story? We need to set an intention in all of our speaking, even more so in our storytelling. So I do like the, I do like the arc. I do like some frameworks and, and formulas, and I certainly sort of teach modifications of those, but just think about the small things, because the small things that are more ordinary are more relatable. Sarah: Yeah. I like that a lot. What I also did in, in [00:26:00] the marketing, like we're human book. Instead of telling this hero a story I told the beginning of the hero, a story, and then I said, look, I'm still in the middle of this thing. Right. I'm not there yet. And I feel like it, this really connects with a lot of my readers because they can relate. They're like, Look, she's not the hero. She's just like us in the middle of figuring things out. She has a message to share, but it's not like, oh, you know, she's now made it and has figured it all out. So I feel like instead of always sharing stories where we have figured it all out these smaller stories, like you mentioned before, That really show we're human as well. And we're just in the middle of things, just like everybody else. Those are the stories that really speak to me.  Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. And, and it's often a good story. We'll have somebody else as the [00:27:00] hero. In that story and you as the business owner or the leader or the organization, you are the mentor in, in the story. You're the guide. You're the guru who offers a, a handout and a help to, to somebody else to make their life better. So you can also think about where you wanna position yourself in, in the story and often the best place for you is as the mentor. So you're really shining a light on somebody else's journey. mm-hmm and yeah, there's a little piece about how you helped, but that's very much in, in the background,  Sarah: us introverts. We really like that. Right. We like to shine the lights on, on others.  Lisa: Definitely. Yeah. All about us. Yeah. I love that. Definitely.  Sarah: What about your story then? I, I know it, I kind of read it a bit in the intro, but I would love for you to explain a bit about your story. Lisa: Yes. I began my career as a midwife. I'm from London and I trained as a nurse and became a midwife. And then I specialized, it [00:28:00] became a neonatal intensive care midwife. And I always wanted to be a nurse. I knew that I wanted to be a nurse and that was to be my, my forever career. And it was through my career that I got the opportunity to move. Australia. And I spent almost two decades working as an intensive care midwife. So much joy, helping to bring new life into the world and look after tiny babies on life support. And then one day my life changed drastically when a virus destroyed. Most of my hearing, I was left with a tiny amount of sound on one side only. And because the intensive care environment is very technical, very challenging and demanding. I could no longer do that job. So I literally had to reinvent myself and, and think what an earth am I going to do? And that was tough. I was already 40 wondering, you know, who's gonna have me, what am I gonna do? And also navigating permanent and severe. Hearing loss. I got on a research trial and I got the amazing [00:29:00] gift of a cochlear implant. And that was the beginning of me learning to hear and speak all over again in a very different way. And that was a very long journey. And it was in that journey, rehabilitating using the cochlear implant that I got interested in speaking, and I started to sign up with mentors and coaches and various programs. From around the, the world and went on this speaking journey and reconnected with my, my love of, of storytelling and then decided that I wanted to be a, a speaker coach and a storyteller and a professional speaker, and, and to also teach and, and help and help others. So these days I work with. With leaders, helping leaders to have high, high impact communication skills, presentation skills, speaking of course, business storytelling. And a couple of years ago, one of my clients, when he was introducing me, we'd had a bit of a chat and he asked me, have I always been a speaker? And I told him, I used to be a midwife. And some people are like, whoa. You know, it's a chalk and cheese. [00:30:00] And when he introduced me in front of the crowd, he introduced me as the story midwife and is kind. Up because I do still bring life into the world, but very different. I encourage people to bring their stories into the world. So I still feel as though I've got a wonderful position of privilege, being able to nurture and, and birth those stories. So, you know, sometimes in life we don't get to choose. We get sent on this huge detour and. hopefully the detour ends up to be a scenic route. So there's not a day that goes by when I don't miss being a midwife. But I absolutely love, love what I do now.  Sarah: Mm. What a beautiful story. Yeah. That is just wonderful. And it just, it just strikes me like this, you know, connecting the dots backwards, and now you are. Really into speaking and telling stories and, and having [00:31:00] lost your hearing, it just kind of like strikes me as well. Obviously that was the next step. If you lose something right, then you really want to highlight it and make this your thing now because you gained it back and it's.  Lisa: Yeah, just, yeah. And I hadn't really thought about it at the time. I had no idea I was lost for quite some, some time and right. And in that space of, you know, why me and what am I gonna do? Yeah. I felt sorry for myself for a while, which is that natural or grieving process. But I, I remember I had a, an interview on, on radio and when they wrote up the blur for the interview, They gave the piece, the title in losing her hearing. She discovered her voice. And I thought, I like that. I'm gonna use that. And it's true. And I remember when I went to see the professor in order to get onto the research trial, it was competitive and he only had so many places. He had a lot of people who could have done with being part of the program and.[00:32:00]  We did all the clinical tests and the, and the sort of health related questions. And then he turned to me and he said, you know, I've got more people who could benefit than there are places available. If I choose you to be on the program, how will you share the gift? And I had no idea what he was talking about. I, I really was sort of stumped and I looked at him and I said, oh, I'll, I'll become a better listener. And he said, okay. And I thought, well, that, that would be a good step. We can all do with becoming a better listener. And it was only several years down the track that I thought my role in life, my purpose is now to help others to use their voice because I've discovered. Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. It's beautiful. When you were speaking also, I paid attention when you said, well, I paid attention all the time, but when you said you know, I learned to listen and speak differently. And I think you highlighted that before. So I I'm curious how, how. [00:33:00] How is it different now?  Lisa: Yeah, it's a good, it's a good question. The sound that I get from the cochlear implant is artificial and it sounds a completely different to natural, natural sound mm-hmm . And so you not only have. To learn to hear, but you've gotta lay down new neural pathways in order to be able to turn that sound into something that resembles human human speech. And initially when you get the device and you have the sort of the turning on ceremony you can't hear anything at all. It, it, it is completely artificial and it just sounds like noise. And because I've got a small amount of natural sound remaining. My brain has to merge those two signals together. The artificial sound that comes from the device and the natural sound that, that, that I'm hearing. So you are bypassing the natural way of, of hearing. So it is a, it is very much a learned. [00:34:00] Process. And it takes a huge amount of focus and a lot of rehabilitation in, in learning to, and, and maybe it's a lot easier for younger people who, who get a cochlear implant. And I also think that it's potentially easier for people who have never heard. Who were born deaf. I mean, you've gotta have a particular type of hearing loss to be able to get a cochlear implant. It's not suitable for, for everybody, but yeah, it was a considerable, a considerable journey and a lot of frustration. Yeah. And a lot of trial and error with the amazing research team.  Sarah: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Just to tell you from, you know, the outside and, and listeners don't see that, but if you're watching the YouTube video, whenever I speak, I really. See on your face, how you're listening intensely. And obviously now I know your story and I know [00:35:00] why, but it's just so beautiful to have someone listen to you so intensely, you know, it feels like, wow, she's really taking in my information and paying attention to me. So, so I can, yeah, I can see the, the really huge benefit and I'm sure all your clients. Are like, wow. I really feel heard and seen by  Lisa: Lisa. Thank you. That's a compliment. I hope they feel that way too. yes.  Sarah: So we, we are getting to wrap up, but I, I would like you, if you can, to just share some final encouragement and, and maybe tips that you could think of for someone who who's yeah. Struggling with this idea of telling stories.  Lisa: Yeah. So look around you. There is a story in everything, whether it is a trip to the supermarket or remembering your first day at school, or applying for a job, getting turned down for a promotion. Yeah. These are all [00:36:00] potential story opportunities. Write them down, capture them and remember that every story does need to have a point. Or a purpose. So ask yourself, how did I feel? What did I learn? And what's that lesson that I want to share with others. And remember that the most important story is the one that we tell ourselves. So do the inner work, do the inner work to get rid of those unhelpful stories that no longer service that perhaps we've had hanging around for a long, long time. Because if you have got whatever your own story is, you know, you get to choose what the next chapter. It's in your control. Yeah. Get out there and share your story. Start off small. But other people are always fascinated by our stories because humans are hardwired to tell stories. We've always done it. Sarah: Yeah, thank you so much. I, I wanna repeat the point and purpose. That's what I really take away in the reason and season that's a, a good one to an easy [00:37:00] one to remember as well. Like the, every story needs a reason and there needs to be the, you know, the season needs to be right and feel right. To you as well. This has been very beautiful. Thank you so much for this conversation. Lisa, do you tell us I have one more question, but before that do tell us where people can connect with you where they can find out more about your work.  Lisa: Sure. Thank you for inviting me. I love your work. Sarah people can connect with me via my website, speaking savvy.com.au. I'm also on LinkedIn, always happy to have a chat and share a story with anyone online. So I do do a complimentary discovery call and obviously I love hearing stories. So that's how people can best reach out to me. Wonderful.  Sarah: And then my last question is what are you grateful for today or this week,  Lisa: Lisa? Today I'm this is probably gonna sound strange where the [00:38:00] opposite sides of the world. I'm grateful today that it's a little bit cooler. I was actually able to have a good night's sleep. The 1st of March, we are now in autumn. Here in Australia. And so we've got temperatures that are really beautiful and to see the, the flowers and the birds and the breeze. So today I'm grateful for the, the wonderful climate that I live in here in Perth, Western Australia.  Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah, I could, the sun is shining today here too, but I could use some warmer temperatures as well. thank you so much for taking the time. Lisa, it's been an absolute delight. Thank  Lisa: you, Sarah.[00:39:00] [00:40:00] 

Lisa Thompson is a Mountaineer, cancer survivor, and sought-after speaker and coach. She worked for 25 years as an engineer and in leadership roles at technology companies. In 2008, she began climbing and has summited most of the most challenging mountains in the world, including Mount Everest and K2. She's completed the seven summits reaching the top of the highest peak of each of the seven continents. Through her company, Alpine Athletics, and other platforms, Lisa shares her message of strength and resilience with corporate and private groups worldwide. She is also the author of “Finding Elevation” which chronicles her path from novice climber to world class mountain. Learn more about Lisa. Learn more about The Passionistas Project.   Full Transcript: Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their Passionistas to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and today we're talking with Lisa Thompson, a mountaineer, cancer survivor and sought-after speaker and coach. Lisa worked for 25 years as an engineer and in leadership roles at technology companies. In 2008, she began climbing and has summited most of the most challenging mountains in the world, including Mount Everest and K2. She's completed the seven summits reaching the top of the highest peak of each of the seven continents. Through her company, Alpine Athletics and other platforms. Lisa shares her message of strength and resilience with corporate and private groups worldwide. She is also the author of “Finding Elevation,” which chronicles Thompson's path from novice climber to world class mountain. So please welcome to the show. Lisa Thompson. Lisa: Great to be here. Thanks for having me today. Passionistas: We're really excited to have you here and hear your story. And, uh, we always like to start with the question. What's the one thing you're most passionate about? Lisa: Right now, I think this has changed over the years. I'm sure that's just the normal progression of a life, but right now I am most passionate about giving back to. Women in the communities that I love communities in Nepal and in Pakistan where I've, you know, really feel at home in the mountains and have spent a lot of time and have great memories there. And it's important to me to give back to those communities, especially the women. I recently started a nonprofit to support women in Nepal and specifically to support their education. It was shocking to me to learn that something like 58% of women in Nepal over the age of 15 have had. Zero education, none at all, which is just, you know, alarming on many levels. But in one regard, they're really the center of a Nepalese family and community. And the fact that there's been no formal education for so many of those women just felt like something that was, that I wanted to impact in a positive way. Passionistas: Where did you grow up and what was your childhood like? Were you always interested in, in, uh, climbing and being outdoors? Lisa: So I grew up in the great mountaineering state of Illinois, where the highest point I believe is 120 feet. And it's so predominant that it actually has a name. Whereas in most states, if that elevation would not be named, so I didn't grow up. Aspiring to be a Mountaineer. I didn't grow up learning or reading about, you know, sir, Edmond Hillary or other sort of pioneering mountaineers. And I wasn't even really that athletic, you know, looking back, I grew up in a small farming community, uh, called Lincoln in the very center of Illinois. You know, every kid sort of makes the, the softball team or the volleyball team. I think there were a couple years where I did not even make it. I was so uncoordinated and unathletic a and I didn't grow up really with parents who pushed me to Excel. You know, I think part of their sort of distance is what motivated me to prove myself and to, you know, you know, back then it was about getting their attention. Lots of time in therapy talking about that. But one of the positives of that I've realized is that it pushed me to really want to Excel and to push myself mentally and physically. And that translated first, you know, I'm still by my account, but only person in my entire extended family to graduate from college, which is sort of sad, you know, to me, but it pushed me to do things that were unexpected. In my community and with my family. And so, you know, going to college was sort of the first step in that direction. I studied engineering, you know, not because I was super interested in it, but because I felt like that seems hard and I can probably make a decent salary when I graduate. And so I was fortunate to get a job with Hewlett Packard right out of college as an engineer, then it was, you know, that was the mid-nineties. I was the only woman at my level. And that taught me a lot. I was certainly not prepared coming from. You know, a very sort of hardworking farming-oriented family. I was not equipped to be thrown into a corporate environment at that age. I was 24. And so there was a lot of sort of flailing and trying to understand dynamics and politics. And I was often the youngest person in the room, the only female in the room. And. Upon reflection. Um, there were definitely some missteps, some things that I just, frankly didn't understand, cuz I was ill-equipped to be in that kind of environment. But one very positive thing that came of that was that through that job, I eventually moved to Seattle, which is where I live today. And here. You know, mountaineering, we're fortunate to be surrounded by the Cascade mountains and the Olympic mountain range. So climbing and mountaineering and just being in the mountains is really part of the culture in Seattle. When I moved here, uh, for that job still with, you know, it wasn't any longer with Hewlett Packard, but it was a derivation of that company. All the men at my level would go climbing on the weekend. And so I had no idea, right? I no, like I'd maybe been camping with my family, but I didn't like know anything about mountaineering. I didn't know what a crampon was. I had no idea the equipment, the gear, the, the, you know, the sort of aesthetic of climbing, nothing. But these men, you know, would go out on the weekends and they would come back to the office on Monday and they had all. You know, incredible stories. And again, it wasn't that I aspired to be in the mountains, but I aspired to be a part of their group. And I wanted them so badly to see me, the only woman on their team as capable and strong. And I wasn't getting that in the office environment. So this seemed like a way to do that. And instead of doing the totally logical thing, which would've been to say. Like oh, climbing. That sounds really cool. Can I come with you or can you tell me more about it? I just got frustrated. I got mad and eventually just decided I was gonna go climb my own damn mountains. And I had no, I again had no idea what that meant, but I started really just hiking around my house in the cascades. And then eventually in 2008, I attempted Mount Rainier, which is the highest mountain in Washington. And after that I was, I was just hooked spite no spite I was hooked at that. Passionistas: Do they know what you've accomplished since then? Lisa: I've lost track of them. I could probably, you know, through a network, get back to them, but I don't, I don't know. Probably not and they probably don't even, you know, these weren't bad guys at all. It just, I think didn't occur to them to ask me to join. And so they probably would have no reason to wonder like, Hey, I wonder if that girl ever climbed any mountains. Passionistas: You started to do this as, you know, a recreational activity, but then at some point that obviously shifted and you started to set these goals for yourself. So what inspired you to climb Mount Rainier and then to take it further from there? Lisa: Yeah, there was something about, so I didn't summit Rainier. My first attempt, the weather sort of turned bad on our second day and retreated. And, and I was relieved in that moment. I was happy cuz I just, I. Again, no idea what I was doing. Although I was with, you know, I was with a guide company and I was safe and all that, but I really just mentally wasn't prepared to be on a mountain and to just feel sort of the vastness of that challenge. And so I went back the next year before I got back to the parking lot in 2008, I was sure I was coming back. I tend to look at climbs like projects. And so even after that first year, I was like, okay, these are, you know, my backpack needs to be lighter. I need to have, you know, not red boots and have my own boots and just little things like that, that I started to like to learn and to, to tweak and adjust what I knew and my gear and my knowledge of the mountain. So I went back in 2009 and summited, and there was a moment, you know, where I sort of it's dark out and you're, you know, you can't really. Appreciate where you're at on the mountain and the sort of vastness of everything around you and the risk of falling. And because all you can see in the dark is just this little tiny circle of light from your headlamp. And so there was a moment where I remember looking what would've been east and seeing the sun just slowly start to split the horizon from the earth and. Just seeing like colors that were so magnificent and awe inspiring and thinking. This is an incredible experience and such a, a daunting place to be that taught me so much, so much humility to be learned in the mountains. When I got to the summit, I just had this incredible sense of accomplishment that I hadn't found anywhere else. I hadn't really gotten it from my parents as a kid. I hadn't gotten it at work. I, you know, graduated from college, any accomplishment I had had in my life until that point hadn't made me feel that way. And I loved that. I still love that climbing is. Obviously a very physical pursuit, but there is an enormous mental challenge that comes with climbing, you know, in any discipline of climbing. And I really loved that combination and I loved the idea of setting. Lofty goal and working hard and accomplishing it. And so I was completely hooked at that point. In two, I was 2009 and ready to just, I did, again, didn't know a lot about what to climb next, but I was sure that I was gonna keep doing it. Passionistas: You know, you were kind of inspired to do it by this being in this male dominated world. When you got to climbing, were there a lot of other women who were in doing what you were doing? Lisa” No. In fact, I, in the beginning was gonna name my book, the only girl, and it has changed. This is, you know, the late 2000s. It is getting better. You know, there's more diversity that the only, and first all black team summited Everest last month, which is incredible to see. And I was fortunate to play a small role in coaching them. So it's changing the dynamics, the face of, of people who enjoy the mountains is changing. But then I was. I don't always is maybe a strong word, but 95% of the time, I was the only woman on the team. And, you know, I was used to being in male dominated arenas, so that wasn't unusual for me, but I think it, you know, being an intense environment like climbing, just sort of heightened all of the challenges that come with that and made them much more potent. And it took me a long time to realize. Or to think about how I showed up in those roles. There was always the, like people doubted and people would say, oh, it's cute. I think you're gonna climb Mount Everest. That's a whole other conversation, but what I tended to think about myself and how I showed up in those situations. And at first I would just be one of the guys, I mean, so much so that they would undress in front of me and not even like, consider that there was a woman standing next to them. On Everest was the first time that I, that just didn't feel authentic to me anymore. It didn't feel right to laugh at crew. That were often, you know, demeaning to women. It didn't feel right to overlook little comments that just didn't sit well with me anymore. And so that was the first time. And there's a moment. And I talk about it in my book where I, you know, all men and I sort of separated myself from them for a minute because it just, I needed to feel like a woman and I needed to feel like myself in that environment. And, you know, at the time it. We're sort of arguing back and forth about my opinion about something versus theirs. But I realize now that it was me sort of stepping into my own strength and my own sort of persona as a woman and saying like this isn't okay anymore. And I'm not gonna just, you know, sit here and let it happen without saying anything. It's still challenging. It's getting better. But yeah, there were a lot of moments there just being, the only woman was a challenge for me. Passionistas: Do you think there are certain qualities that you, as a woman bring to a climb that's different than the male energy of a, of a climb? Lisa: And again, generalizing. Right. But I, I'm fortunate now that I get to coach mountaineers and I coach men and women. Um, and I, you know, I can see those nuances, even as I'm coaching them, women are much more interested in like the mental side. Of taking on a challenge, like a big mountain and making sure that they're very well rounded in their preparations. They wanna make sure that they're understanding the route. You know, they know where the challenges will be and that mentally they have the tools to get through them. And men generally, again, not always the case, but often just like they wanna like train and work hard and do all the runs and all the hikes and all the preparation climbs. And don't often sort of step back and say, There's a whole other side of this. There's a whole other, you know, facet to climbing big mountains. And, you know, my experience is that when you look at everything holistically is when you're the most prepared and when you're the most successful. And I think even on the mountains, you know, it's tough, there's difficult situations. And I find that women often add just a little bit more compassion to those situations. A little bit more empathy. and sometimes that's what you need to get through something that's difficult. So there's my experience. Yeah. There's a big difference between what men and women bring to those situations. Passionistas: So you, you have the successful Mount Rainier climb in 2009. What happens next? And how do you kind of plan where you go next? Lisa: Yeah, so I didn't do a lot of planning. I just knew, I knew I wanted to keep climbing more challenging things and there's, you know, back in the eighties, I believe it was a couple of mountaineers society. It would be really cool to climb to the highest peak of every single continent. And so I thought, okay, I'll just start doing that. You know, I don't know what to do. I picked the easiest, one of those, which was in Russia, a Mount called Elbrus and was successful there. So I thought, okay, well, Keep sort of on that track and climbing in the cascades as well, sort of, you know, like thinking, okay, I wanna be more independent and learn different skills, like building anchors and self-arrest and rope management. And so I, I would take excursions on the weekends locally to do those things. And then about once a year I would climb something big somewhere else in the world. And I was on that track and I had sort of decided. Mount Everest was kind of the next logical thing for me to climb just in terms of skill and difficulty. And at the time I felt like, oh, Everest is so commercial and there must be more interesting mountains in the Himalaya to climb. And so I had decided, and this really is a big moment. I think, in any mountaineers' career I had decided I was ready to climb in the Himalaya. So, you know, the Himalaya is this huge mountain range that bisects Asia and. It's special for a lot of reasons, but one is that. Most of the highest mountains in the world are there. And when we say high, in terms of mountaineering, we're talking about any mountain that's higher than 26,000 feet or 8,000 meters. And there's only 14 of those in the world. And so I, in 2015 thought, okay, I think I'm ready. Like I'm ready to try an easy one and just see how it goes. So. I picked that mountain, which is called Montes SL. And I was just beginning to prepare for it when I was diagnosed with cancer, you know, we, we've already established that. I'm a very stubborn person and I was a little cocky, you know, I was 42 years old. I thought and, and an athlete, like I ate organic vegetables. I wore my seatbelt. I floss my teeth. Like I, all those things that you are, you are taught to believe will keep you healthy. I thought I was doing it turns out I had a tremendous amount of stress in my job, which is, you know, like looking back and sort of analyzing how my body could get reacted that way to an external thing. It probably was a lot of stress at work, but nonetheless, I was diagnosed with breast cancer at the beginning of 2015. I was determined. Not to let cancer dictate my priorities so much so that I sat with my surgeon and said like, is there any way we could just postpone this whole cancer thing? Like, can we just like, how much could those tumors really grow in eight months? Like I just go do this climb and I'll come back and then you can do whatever you want with my body. When I get back and she very compassionately said that that would be a full hearty decision. I always remember that she used that word. And so I was very fortunate that I was able to get rid of the tumors in my, uh, breast with a bilateral mastectomy from which I did at the beginning in April of 2015. And I was, I mean, determination. Isn't a big enough word for how focused I was on getting my body ready to still travel to Nepal and attempt Montes SL. That autumn. And so I went, um, I was not, I was not a hundred percent. I had all, you know, all my doctors, all my care, healthcare providers knew what I was up to. They all thought I was a little bit crazy, but I had their support to be there. And. You know, their cell phone numbers, if anything went weird. And luckily it didn't, I didn't summit Manaslu in 2015, there was an avalanche above our camp. And, you know, the team felt that it just wasn't safe to continue. So we all turned around and I, I firmly believe that mountains and, you know, nature teaches us things. And so. When I got home, I, you know, I just sort of did some reflection about that climb. And I think sometimes you learn the most when you're not successful when you don't summit. But I realized that, you know, life is so fragile and that it's up to us. Each of us to define the lives that we will live. And so I became determined then to sort of reprioritize my life. My pause, my corporate career actually got a divorce and I decided to climb Mount Everest at that point. And, uh, went back to Nepal in 2016 to do that. Passionistas: So talk about that. Talk about preparing for that and you know, and the mental preparation, especially. Lisa: I learned a lot on Monte SL again, you know, success doesn't always mean you, you gain the most from a situation. And so I learned what my body was capable of. I knew that if I was healthy and trained, that I could be even stronger. And so I, I started working with a sports psychologist to really dig into the mental aspects. I was still a little bit unsure about what my body could do, you know, I, I, and I had. Probably four more surgeries before I went to Everest for reconstruction. So I depended a lot on a sports psychologist to just help me understand why Everest was important to me, what my body was capable of. To give me some really important tools that I use still today when things get difficult in the mountains to have something to focus on and to sort of rationalize what's going on around me and break it down into manageable chunks. So that was hugely helpful. I worked with a, a climbing coach as well to get me ready. You know, it was a very tumultuous time in my life as I was preparing to climb the most difficult mountain that I had climbed to that point. I was in the middle of getting a divorce. I wasn't sure I wanted to keep working. My dog died. Like all these, just so many things happened and looking back. It felt like just a really big reset, like the universe sort of saying, like, you know, that was your life then before cancer, and this is your chance to find your life after cancer. You know, that really is a big gift. I always think that cancer, I am grateful today in the moment I was not, but today I'm grateful for cancer because it showed me so many things about priorities and what life is about and how I want to spend it. I know that there's a book worth of conversation to be had, if not more about actually climbing Mount Everest, but kind of in general, what was the experience like? Passionistas: What was the biggest challenge that you faced in, in the midst of that experience? Lisa: Yeah, so climbing a big mountain, like Everest, I'll just provide a quick sort of background as to how it even. You know, it's, those mountains are so big, right? Your, your body could not possibly function. Even if you're breathing supplemental oxygen. It's not as easy as just walking to base camp and then starting to climb. There's a whole process of a climatization. Where you start at one camp climb to the next highest camp and then return to that first camp. And then you repeat that process gradually moving up the mountain, and that allows your body to change physiologically, to build more red blood cells so that you can survive at those higher elevations. And so for me on Everest as I was going through that process, I really felt in sync with the mountain in contrast to K2, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a little bit, but I really felt like things just went smoothly. I felt like the mountain and I were working together and that we sort of [00:23:00] shared a level of respect. That, you know, ultimately ultimately allowed me to be successful, but that doesn't mean there weren't difficult moments. I recall climbing from camp three to camp four and it had been very, very windy. So, you know, hadn't slept at all the night before was lying in a very cramped tent. That was my side of the tent was actually can levered over the side of the mountain because it, you know, it was so steep. And, you know, a lot of emotional, like, is it too windy? You know, are we gonna have a chance to summit? We need to descend. And then it's a very quick decision by our team to like, we look, it looks like we have a window. We're gonna go up. I had sort of envisioned like having this moment to like get ready. And that was none of that. It was very rushed and harried and chaotic. And I, I walk out of the tent and I clip into the fixed rope with my, with my harness. and it was so incredibly windy that it kept blowing me over. And I remember these moments of just hearing the wind coming towards me from my left side, and then just lying face down on the ice to let it pass me by before I could continue. And that luckily subsided after, I don't know, a couple of hours or something. And, and then. I got to what I knew was gonna be the easiest part of that day, which is sort of a flat section that curves to the left towards a rock feature called the yellow band. And the yellow band is about 25 degrees. So it's not super steep. It's limestone. It would actually be fun to climb it at sea level, but as I'm walking towards it, I realize that I'm moving so slow and I'm actually. Like I get distracted by someone's glove, rolling down the ice. And my friend came up from behind me is like, what, you know, what do you what's going on? And I was like, I don't know. I just, I just wanna like lay down and I had run out of oxygen. So my brain and my, my muscles were not getting the oxygen that they needed to continue. I had a couple, I had a decision to make, I had a few choices in that moment. I could have turned around and gone back to camp three and said, you know, my climbs over or looked for more oxygen. I could have sat there in the snow and asked someone, probably a Sherpa to bring me more oxygen where I could have kept going. And. Those first two options just didn't feel right to me. And so I continued climbing. I will never forget. So climbing this relatively, you know, at sea level, easy section of rock and telling myself to just focus on the climber ahead of me and to never let him outta my sight, like just, he's not gonna get outta my site no matter what it takes. And I don't know how long it took me. I, you know, everything got really fuzzy at that moment. And I was still safe. I still had people around me and people knew that I didn't have oxygen, but I, that made that situation made me realize that we are so much stronger mentally than we believe or that, that we give ourselves credit for, because my body was literally like, it didn't have the gas that needed to continue. And it was just, I think my mind is pushing me, just willing myself forward to get through that situation. And the best feeling in the world. Like I hope nobody has to experience that, but I can't tell you how sweet it is to not have oxygen and have oxygen. Like, as soon as I got a fresh bottle, it was like, the world was right again. So a challenging moment. But like I said, I think mountains teach us things and you know, it taught me that I sort of have this untapped tool in my, you know, mental capacity that I really. You know, even now I feel like there's so much more potential to hone that skill of being mentally strong. Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast in our interview with Lisa Thompson. To learn more about her adventures and get a copy of her book, “Finding Elevation,” visit Lisaclimbs.com. We'd like to take a moment to share a special announce. We'll be hosting the third annual Power of Passionistas Summit, this September 21st through September 23rd, 2022. The three-day virtual event is focused on authentic conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion. This unique gathering of intersectional storytellers and panelists harnesses the power of our rich community of passionate thought leaders and activists to pose solutions to the problems plaguing women today. Early bird tickets are on sale now at bit.ly/2022PowerofPassionistasTickets. We'd like to thank our sponsors — Melanie Childers, Natural Born Rebel, The Ossa Collective, Tea Drops, Aaron's Coffee Corner, Flourishing Over Fifty, Edith Espanola, Mermaid's Garden, Sara Fins Coaching, and Tara McCann Wellness. Now here's more of our interview with Lisa. That process of getting in tune with the mountain and going back and forth to the different camps. How long does that take? Lisa: It takes about a month, maybe six weeks. It just depends on weather and how fast people are moving People climbing in sort of the standard style climbing, big mountains and 8,000 meter peaks. Usually it takes about six weeks to, to two months to, to do that. So it's a long time. Passionistas: In 2017, you actually won an Emmy for something related to the Everest climb. Lisa: Right? So we, so this is totally serendipitous. So the expedition leader is named Garrett Madison He had endeavored to capture our climb in virtual reality, you know, technology has changed a lot since 2016. And so the way we did it was to strap all these GoPros sort of in a sphere and then carry that on a wand up the mountain and thereby, you know, create this 360 degree view. Of our climb. And then later some very smart people stitched that together and actually made it a virtual reality film, which is called capturing Everest. And, you know, I didn't know that was gonna happen when I signed up for that climb. There were, you know, a lot of. Sort of deals made and, and it just happened to be purchased by sports illustrated, um, and turned into this really cool documentary that later won an Emmy, not for my acting prowess, surprisingly, but for just the technology. It was the first time that anyone had captured virtual reality footage in that kind of an environment. You can find it on the sports illustrated website and on their app. And it's really, it's really fun if even if you don't have a headset, you can watch it in 360-degree video with your phone. And I will tell you, it will make you dizzy. Like even me having been there, it is very, very real to watch people, you know, climbing or walking across the ladder or climbing a steep part of, of the, the mountain. So I feel. You know, never in my life, if you've said like you could win an Emmy, I would like never thought that. So it was a really, really cool experience and cool to be able to just share that in a very tangible way, with cool technology, to people who, you know, may never endeavor to climb. But now get to have a little bit of a taste of what it's like. Passionistas: So that same year in 2017, you, um, became the first all American women to summit K2. So how did that differ from climbing Mount Everest and what unique challenges did you face on that? Lisa: Yeah. So it was 2017. I, I endeavored to go to K2 for the first time. My team actually fell apart. And so I didn't climb that mountain that year. I went back in 2018 and in 2017, the first American woman did summit. And I felt like, you know, I, I, this is still an important climb for me. It's something. I think being the first is very cool. I think not being the only is even cooler. And so it was important to me to just sort of continue showing what women could do in the mountains. So K2 is the second highest mountain in the world. It's about 800 feet shorter than Mount Everest. K2 is in Pakistan. It's on the border between China and Pakistan. Most people, like if I'm at a dinner party and you know, someone finds out that I've climbed Everest, they get super excited and they wanna know what that's like, and I'll say, yeah, but I climbed this other mountain called K2, which is actually like really, really hard. And they're like, yeah. But tell me about Everest. Did you see any dead people? So most people don't even know. You know, not even heard of K2, it's in a much more remote part of the world. For example, you know, the, the walk to Everest space camp is, you know, in a lovely valley, there are tea houses. There are commercial helicopters. There is an emergency room at Everest space camp. There is none of that. In the Karakoram mountain range in Pakistan, you are farther from any kind of definitive medical care that you'll probably ever be in your life. And that, you know, would involve a Pakistani army helicopter ride to a small hospital in a remote village. So it's, it's much more remote. The weather on K2 is also much more fickle. So it's, you know, known for just monster storms that sort of whip out of nowhere, dump a lot of snow. Cause avalanches. K2 is also steep from like the second you leave base camp. It is just unrelentingly steep and it is also known for a lot of rock fall. So you can imagine that my family was super excited to hear about me. Deciding to climb this mountain, I had just, you know, beat cancer. My father was diagnosed with cancer when I was climbing Mount Everest and, and died about a month after I got home. And so I sort of promised him that K2 would be the last, really dangerous mountain that I climbed. I was very determined to give it a go in 2018. And, and I was so fortunate that. Everything aligned, you know, the, I had a great team, the weather was decent and we were able to make it work. And, and, you know, and I mentioned earlier that I felt very in sync with Mount Everest and on K2. I felt every day like that mountain was trying to kill me, you know, in the form of rock falls in the form of other climbers dying. I just never really felt like I was in sync with that mountain. And there was a moment where again, climbing steep rock much steeper than the rock I describe on Everest. It's a section of the route called the Black Pyramid and it's at 25,000. And so in this moment I'm wearing a down suit. I'm actually breathing bottled oxygen because the climbing is so difficult and I'm attached to a rope. And that section of the mountain is sort of really like chunky, just unstable rock and there's snow and ice. And I wanted to quit. Like I wanted to just turn around. I fantasized about like reversing my direction on the rope and I thought I could be. Back at base camp in a couple of days, and I could get a helicopter to Islamabad and I could take a proper shower and like eat, you know, I'd really just let, like all the things my sports psychologist told me not to do. I just really let that real like play out. I wanted to turn around and I remember, you know, from somewhere there was a voice in my head that said, is this all you were capable of? And I realized that it was not all that I was capable of, that I was, you know, I was frustrated and I was tired and I was mad at myself, but I was capable of more. And so I kept just. Putting one hand above the other one foot above the other. And I knew that would be the hardest point in the mountain. And once I got past that, you know, the, the rocks were relented and it was more snow, which is my comfort zone, but there were many, many moments where I wanted to quit. So then what did that moment feel like when you finally reached the. So I remember climbing. So a couple days after that scene that I described with the Black Pyramid and we attempted the summit and, you know, the night before the summit, you're sort of, you're laying, I was laying in a tent with two other men in the middle position wearing my down suit boots. Like you don't really sleep. You just sort of lay there for a few hours, like waiting and breathing bottle oxygen. I had this sort of like checklist in my mind of like making sure that I had food in the right places, on my, down, in my down suit that I had like turned on my GPS device, like going through all those sort of pre-flight checklist things. And then we, we left for the summit and it's dark out and I knew the climbing initially would not be. The steepest part. I knew it would be a little bit chill for a bit, and then it was gonna get steeper. And I had, you know, that sort of pre-flight checklist. I had put new batteries in my headlamp. And as I'm climbing, I realize that the batteries are about are dying. They're dimmer than everyone else is. And I say, I'm fine. I have a, I have a spare set. It's close to my body. So they're not frozen. I stop, you know, with thick gloves, like fumble around, finally get the batteries in there. Good. Keep climbing, catch up with my team. And it happens again. And I don't have a spare and I can't expect anybody else to give me their spare. They're sort of, you know, they're sort of ethic and climbing that. You need to be self-sufficient up there. You can't rely on anybody else. And so I remember screaming at the guy in front of me, Rob Smith, a fantastic guy from Ireland, and he gave me his spare batteries. You know, it's very delicate exchange, right? If you can imagine we're in these thick gloves, we're on the side of a mountain, it's dark. And I just remember him like pushing that battery into the palm of my glove. And I remember thinking if you dropped this, that's it. The reason it was, I mean, obviously it was important to see, but we were about to cross, what's called the bottleneck traverse on K2, which is, you know, it's actually flat, but it's about, it's less than one boot width. And so you're walking and there's like two miles of air beneath you. And so you cannot make a mistake there. You obviously cannot have compromised vision there. And so literally without Rob's help, I would not have. I wouldn't have made it. And that moment, you know, several hours later, I got to the summit and I remember it was it's light out now and I'm climbing by myself and it's, it's very, um, unconsolidated snow. So I'm sort of take one step and, you know, I'm, I'm putting my boot print in other people's path. So there's a little sort of steps there and sometimes they would just break and you would just slide down and, you know, it's just incredibly frustrating and you exert a lot of energy. But I looked up and I saw where the snow met the horizon. I saw bright colors and I thought, that's it. Like those are other peoples standing there at the summit. And more than anything, I wanted to cry in that moment. But I was like, do not cry. Like you you're not there yet. And just to sort of bring things full circle I had, after my father died, I had, you know, carried his ashes to like every mountain. Sprinkle them on the top. And it was a very, you know, just peaceful sort of full circle moment to spread the last of his ashes on the summative K2, which is, you know, he never in his life could have imagined traveling to Pakistan. So it was fun to just sort of, not only to have him with me, but to be able to share that with him as well was really special. Passionistas: What is the coming down like physically and emotionally? Lisa: So, I'm glad you asked that question, Amy, because most people and I was very, very conscious of writing about this in my book because the summit is halfway like it is literally halfway and more mountaineering accidents occur on the dissent. Then then climbing up and that's because you're tired. Many people push beyond what they're capable of. You're you know, just logistically you're facing away from the mountain. Oftentimes gravity is not working in your favor. And so the dissent to me is very. Harrowing like it's I very consciously at the top of, at any big mountain do not celebrate because it is, you're not done. There is still a lot more work to do. And on K2 in particular, you know, we talked a little bit about like that moment on Everest, where I felt like I was sort of stepping into my own strength and on K2, I'm [00:41:00] descending, very steep ice face and. There are ropes there. And one rope is meant for climbers coming up. There are still some climbers ascending, and the other rope is meant for climbers who are descending. Another climber had, uh, started to ascend the rope that I was about to use to go down. And I scream at him. You know, he's very, he's far down the slope. He can't hear me. He's just sort of laying there. And I sort of looked, my friend Garrett was next to me and he recommended that I descend. Using not the most secure technique, a, a technique arm wrapping where you wrap the rope around your arm and you, um, you're connected to that rope with a safety carabiner. It's locked, but you lean forward and just walk face first down the mountain. And I had done it many times, but, but I, it just didn't feel right. To do it then. And I didn't even, I don't even know where this voice came from, but I just told him no, like I'm not, that's not how I'm gonna do that this today. And so I, you know, set up my repel device, which takes longer, is much safer, but you know, takes longer repel down to this man who's laying face first and the ice, not, he wasn't response, he was alive. I could, you know, he was alive. He did survive by the way, just before I get too far in the story. But he wasn't responsive to my, you know, yelling at him, trying to get him to move. And so I had to execute this very, very delicate sequence of moving my gear, you know, establishing a safe anchor, moving my gear around him on what I know, because I, you know, study this mountain intimately is. The place on that mountain where most people have died and thankfully it went well and he survived and, you know, I was able to continue, but that was a moment that, to me, that just underscores that [00:43:00] the dissent is so in some ways more important than the ascent in terms of difficulty. And that, that moment looking back, or I said to my friend, Garrett, like, that's not how I'm gonna do this today. I really felt like was pivotal in terms of me, sort of, this is a man that I've climbed with for years. I've always trusted him. He knows my capability. And so for me to just, you know, take a different tact, I think was, you know, just more of me, like stepping into my own voice and strength in the mountains, which is a good feeling. Passionistas: Can you compare for us the fear that you faced being diagnosed with cancer versus the fear you faced on a mountain like that? Lisa: Knowing how dangerous it is and if those are different and if you have the same or different tools to deal with both. Yeah, that's an awesome question. They feel to me like somatically, they feel very different. I feel like different kinds of fear. When I was diagnosed with cancer, I felt completely unprepared to deal with that scenario. It was not anything that I ever thought I would have to encounter or deal with in my life. And I felt out of control. I felt like, you know, my body was, had turned against me initially. I, you know, before I had a team of people to support me, I felt alone. And without like a path or a, you know, a guide to get me through this situation. And luckily that changed and I found incredible healthcare. It felt much scarier to be diagnosed with cancer in the mountains. I feel like, you know, I have, I understand what I can control and I have the skills to get myself through it. And I think fear for sure in the mountains. I, I believe that a little bit of fear is a good thing because I think that it keeps you focused. It keeps me alert to what's going on around me. If the weather's changing, if the route is changing, if. You know, someone climbing above me that doesn't look super safe, that little bit of fear sharpens my awareness too much fear. I think in the mountains and in fighting cancer can be stifling. And I think it can actually, you know, sort of stop you from progressing. But that's a, a really important question because they, for me are very different flavors of fear. Passionistas: So what's the next big challenge for you? Lisa: Yeah. So we talked about it a little bit in the beginning. I don't endeavor. I don't have any desire to climb anything more challenging than K2 in my life, but I do wanna keep climbing and it's become more important to me to give back to the communities, particularly in Nepal and in Pakistan, where I have just learned so much about myself and gotten so much from them personally. So I wanna, I wanna start to give back to those communities and in particular to the women who, who live in those communities. So along with some female mountaineering friends of mine, we were setting up a philanthropic climb for this fall to a mountain called Cholatse which is in, uh, Nepal. It's about 6,800 meters. It will not be the hardest mountain we've ever climbed. But the point is that we just wanna show that anything is possible when women support one another in the mountains. And so to us, that means. That our team will be fully comprised of women. I don't know if that's ever happened before. I think there've been some all women's climbs that maybe had support from men, but, and not that we don't like men, but like we just wanna show that women can do everything in the mountains that a man can do. And so we're building that team. We're super lucky to have a great, uh, Nepalese uh, climbing leader. Pasang Lama. She's helping us create a team of all women to, to cook, to carry loads, to plan, to do everything. And we just think it's an incredible sort of opportunity to raise some money for at least one, depending on how, how fundraising goes maybe more, but we want to. We're soliciting input for Nepalese women who have some educational related goal in their life. So if they wanna learn a trade, if they wanna open a tea house, um, if they weren't wanna learn about economics, like we want to be able, we wanna be the catalyst that helps that woman learn those skills so that she can better not just her life. But I think, you know, that sort of has this trickle-down effect and has the potential to positively impact generations. So. I'm, you know, just beyond excited to be a part of this team and we'll see where it goes. We'd love to do it, you know, multiple years, but we're all, you know, just we're dedicated and excited to, to climb with a purpose now. Passionistas: So what inspired you to write your book "Finding Elevation"? Lisa: I had always wanted to write, which I studied engineering in college, you know? I felt like I was very far away from that as, as an adult, but as a kid, I had a desire to write. And in my twenties, I tried out different topics. You know, none of them just sort of seemed to fit. And then when I was diagnosed with cancer, I really relied on journaling to, to get me through that and to be this, you know, sort of outlet for everything that I was feeling. And. Probably two years of journaling, I sort of realized that there were a lot of things that I had encountered that seemed to translate to other people. You know, that if I could share what I had learned, the hard way with another woman that maybe, you know, she would have an easier path than I did. And so it became really important for me to share. Um, and, and, you know, at the time I thought this will just be about cancer. And then as I continued to climb and I continued to learn more about myself and what I'm capable of and how to overcome obstacles, how to find your voice. Most of that through K2, it, it just really turned into a much bigger project than just journaling. . What was the thing you learned about yourself from writing the book that maybe surprised you the. I think I learned a lot about my childhood when I was writing. Um, I, and I, you know, I spent a year studying memoir at the university of Washington, and I remember like my, there was nothing about my childhood in, in an early draft. And my instructor was like, you can't leave that out. Like that's a part of, and I was like, yeah, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't super, like, it's kind of painful for me. I really don't wanna put it in here. Um, and of course it, you know, needs to be a more balanced story, et cetera, etcetera. And so by me sort of digging through that, I realized, you know, this sort of these traits that I have today and where they came from. And there was a lot of therapy in there as well. And it made me realize that, you know, something that. Because I said, my parents, you know, were not very reliable. They weren't always around. And, and that made me a very independent person. Um, there's certainly some downsides to that, but I think there's, I think there's always a silver lining. There's always some positive. Outcome, even of bad situations. And we often just have to look a little bit harder, like, you know, dig a little bit deeper to find them. But those I think are, you know, the real nuggets and like where, where we really learn why we are the way we are. Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our interview with Lisa Thompson, to learn more about her adventures and get a copy of her book, finding elevation, visit LisaClimbs.com Please visit ThePassionistasProject.com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your Passions. Double your first box when you sign up for a one year subscription. Remember to sign up for our mailing list, to get more information about the Power of Passionistas Summit at bit.ly/2022PowerofPassionistasTickets. And be sure to subscribe to the Passionistas Project Podcast, so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests. Until next time stay well and stay passionate.

SUMMARY:  In this episode, we talk with Lisa Coyne about ACT For mental compulsions.  Lisa Coyne addressed how to use Acceptance and Commitment therapy for overcoming mental compulsions. We cover how to identify your values using a fun little trick! In This Episode: How to use Acceptance & Commitment Therapy to manage mental compulsions How to practice Willingness in regards to reducing mental rituals and mental rumination  A fun little Value Based tool for identifying your values.  How to be curious instead of thinking in a limited way.  Links To Things I Talk About: Stuff thats Loud Stop Avoiding Stuff  https://www.newenglandocd.org/ ERP School: https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp Episode Sponsor: This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com.  CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors.  Go to cbtschool.com to learn more. Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety... If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two).   EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION This is Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 287.  Welcome back, everybody. I am so excited. We are at Episode 6 of this six-part series of how to manage mental compulsions. You guys, we could not end this series with anyone better than Dr. Lisa Coyne. I don't know if you've heard of Lisa Coyne. I bet you, you probably have. She is the most wonderful human being.  I have met Lisa, Dr. Lisa Coyne multiple times online, never in person, and just loved her. And this was my first time of actually getting to spend some really precious time with her. And, oh my gosh, my heart exploded like a million times. And you will hear in this episode, you will hear my heart exploding at some point, I'm sure. I am so honored to finish out the six-part series with Lisa. This series, let me just share with you how joyful it has felt to be able to deliver this as a series, as a back-to-back piece of hope. I'm hoping it has been a piece of hope for you in managing something really, really difficult, which is managing mental compulsions. Now, as we finish this series up, I may or may not want to do a recap. I'm not sure yet. I'm going to just see where my heart falls, but I want to just really first, as we move into this final part of the series, to remind you, take what you need. You've been given literally back-to-back some of the best advice I have ever heard in regards to managing mental compulsions. We've got world-renowned experts on this series. You might have either found it so, so educational and so, so helpful while also feeling sometimes a little bit like, “Oh my goodness, there's so many tools, which one do I use?”  And I really want to emphasize to you, as we finish this out, again, so beautiful. What a beautiful ending. I almost feel like crying. As we finish it out, I really want to remind you, take what you need, take what's helpful, or – well, I should say and – try all of them out. Practice with each of the skills and the concepts and the tools. See what happens when you do. Use them as little experiments. Just keep plugging away with these skills and tools. Because number one, they're all evidence-based. I very carefully picked the experts on this series to make sure that we are bringing you evidence-based, really gold standard treatment. So, that's been a priority. Just practice with them. Don't be hard on yourself as you practice them. Remind yourself, this is a long-term journey. These are skills I still practice. I'm sure everyone who's come on the show, they are still practicing them. And so, I really want to send you off with a sense of hope that you get to play around with these. Be playful with them. Some of them will be we've giggled and we've laughed and we've cried. So, I want you to just be gentle as you proceed and you practice and remind yourself this is a process and a journey.  That being said, I am going to take you right into this next part of the six-part series with Dr. Lisa Coyne. This is where we bring it home and boy, does she bring it home. I feel like she beautifully ties it all up in a ribbon. And I hope it has been so helpful for you. Really, I do. I want this to be a resource that you share with other people who are struggling. I want to be a resource that you return to when you're struggling. I want it to be a place where you feel understood and validated. And so, thank you so much for being a part of this amazing series. That being said, let's get over onto the show, and here is Dr. Lisa Coyne. ------ Kimberley: I literally feel like I'm almost in tears because I know this is going to be the last of the series and I'm so excited. I had just said this is going to bring it home. I'm so excited to have Dr. Lisa Coyne. Welcome. Lisa: Thank you. It's so nice to be here with you, Kim. Hi, everyone. What is a Mental Compulsion? Do you call it a Mental Compulsion or a Mental Ritual?  Kimberley: Yes. So, first of all, the question I've asked everybody, and I really am loving the response is, this is a series on managing mental compulsions, but do you call them mental compulsions, mental rituals, rumination? How do you conceptualize this whole concept? Lisa: I would say, it depends on the person and it depends on what they're doing. I call them any number of things. But I think the most important thing, at least for me in how I think about this, is that we come at it from a very behavioral perspective, where we really understand that-- and this is true for probably all humans, but especially so for OCD. I have a little bit of it myself, where I get caught up in the ruminations. But there's a triggering thought. You might call it a trigger like a recurrent intrusive thought that pops up or antecedent is another word that we think of when we think of behavior analysis. But after that thought comes up, what happens is the person engages in an on-purpose thing, whatever it is that they do in their mind. It could be replacing it with a good thought. It could be an argument with yourself. It could be, “I just need to go over it one more time.” It could be, “I'm going to worry about this so I can solve it in advance.” And that part is the part that we think of as the compulsion. So, it's a thing we're doing on purpose in our minds to somehow give us some relief or safety from that initial thought.  Now the tricky part is this. It doesn't always feel like it's something we're doing on purpose. It might feel so second nature that it too feels automatic. So, part of, I think, the work is really noticing, what does it feel like when you're engaging in this activity? So, for me, if I'm worrying about something, and worry is an example of this kind of doing in your mind, it comes with a sense of urgency or tightness or “I just have to figure it out,” or “What if I--” and it's all about reducing uncertainty really.  So, the trick that I do when I notice it in me is I'll be like, “Okay, I'm noticing that urgency, that tension, that distress. What am I up to in my head? Am I solving something? Is that--” and then I'll step back and notice what I'm up to. So, that's one of my little tricks that I teach my clients. Kimberley: I love this. Would you say your predominant modality is acceptance and commitment therapy? What would you say predominantly you-- I mean, I know you're skilled in so many things, but what would you-- Lisa: I would say, it's funny because, yeah, I guess you would. I mean, I'm pretty skilled in that.  I'm an ACT trainer. Although I did start with CBT and I would say that for OCD, I really stick to ERP. I think of it as the heart of the intervention, but we do it within the context of ACT. ACT for Mental Compulsions  Kimberley: Can you tell me what that would look like? I'm just so interested to understand it from that conceptualization. So, you're talking about this idea. We've talked a lot about like, it's how you respond to your thoughts and how you respond and so forth. And then, of course, you respond with ERP. What does ACT look like in that experience? I'd love to hear right from your mouth. Lisa: Okay. All right. So, I'm going to do my best here to just say it and then we'll see if it sounds more like ACT or it sounds more like ERP. And then you'll see what I mean when I say I do both of them. So, when you think about OCD, when you think about anxiety, or even maybe depression where you're stuck in rumination, somebody is having an experience. We call it a private event like feeling, thought, belief that hurts, whatever it is. And what they're doing is everything that they can to get away from that. So, if it's OCD, there's a scary thought or feeling, and then there's a ritual that you do.  So, to fix that, it's all about learning to turn towards and approach that thing that's hard. And there's different ways you can do that. You can do that in a way where you're dialing it in and you're like, “Yeah, I'm going to do the thing,” but you're doing everything that you can to not feel while you're doing that. And I think that's sometimes where people get stuck doing straight-up exposure and response prevention. It's also hard.  When I was a little kid, I was really scared to go off the high dive. I tell my clients and my team the story sometimes where it was like a three-meter dive. And I was that kid where I would be like, “I'm going to do it. All the other kids are doing it.” And I would climb up, I'd walk to the end of the board, freak out, walk back, climb down. And I did this so many times one day, and there's a long line of other kids waiting to get in the water. And they were pissed. So, I got up and I walked out to the end of the board and I was like, “I can't.” And I turned around to go back. And there was my swim coach at the other side of the board with his arms crossed. I was like, “Oh no.” Kimberley: “This is not the way I planned.” How do you apply Acceptance & Commitment Therapy for OCD and Mental Compulsions?  Lisa: And he is like, “No, you're going.” And I went, which was amazing. And sometimes you do need that push. But the point is that it's really hard to get yourself to do those really hard things sometimes when it matters. So, to me, ACT brings two pieces to the table that are really, really important here. You can divide ACT into two sets of processes. There's your acceptance and mindfulness processes, and then there's your commitment and valuing processes, which are the engine of ACT, how do we get there?  So, for the first part, mindfulness is really paying attention on purpose. And if you want to really learn from an exposure, you have to be in your body, you have to be noticing, you have to be willing to allow all of the thoughts and sensations and whatever shows up to show up. And so, ACT is ideal at shaping that skillset for when you're in the exposure. So, that's how we think of it that way.  And then the valuing and commitment is, how do you get yourself off that diving board? There has to be something much more important, bigger, much bigger than your fear to help motivate you for why to do this hard thing. And I think that the valuing piece and really connecting with the things that we most deeply care about is part of what helps with that too. So, I think those two bookends are really, really important. There's other ways to think about it, but those are the two primary ways that we do ERP, but we do it within an ACT framework. Using Values to manage Mental Compulsions Kimberley: Okay. I love this. So, you're talking about we know what we need to do. We know that rumination isn't helpful. We know that it creates pain. We know that it keeps us stuck. And we also know, let's jump to like, we know we have to drop it ultimately. What might be an example of values or commitments that people make specifically for rumination, the solving? Do you have any examples that might be helpful?  Lisa: Yeah. I'm just thinking of-- there's a bunch of them, but for example, let's take, for example, ROCD, relationship OCD. So, let's say someone's in a relationship with a partner and they're not sure if the right partner is. Are they cheating on me? Are they not? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's this like, “But I have to solve if this is the right person or not. Am I going to be safe?” or whatever the particular worry is. And so, one of the things that you can do is once folks notice, they're trying to solve that. Notice, what's the effect of that on your actual relationship? How is that actually working? So, there's this stepping back where an ACT, we would call that diffusion or taking perspective self-as-context, which is another ACT, acceptance, and mindfulness piece. And first of all, notice that. Second of all, pause. Notice what you're up to. Is the intent here to build a strong relationship, or is the intent to make this uncertainty go away? And then choose. Do I want to work on uncertainty or do I want to work on being a loving partner and seeing what happens? Because there's so much we're not in charge of, including what we're thinking and feeling. But we are in charge of what we choose to do. And so, choosing to be present and see where it goes, and embracing that uncertainty. But the joyfulness of it, I think, is really, really important. So, that would be one example.  Kimberley: I love that example. Actually, as you were saying, I was thinking about an experience of my own. When your own fears come up around relationship, even you're ruminating about a conversation or something, you've got to stop and be like, “Is this getting in the way here of the actual thing?” It's so true. Tell me about this joy piece, because it's not very often you hear the word joy in a conversation about mental compulsions. Tell me about it. Lisa: Well, when you start really noticing how this is working, and if you're willing to step back from it, let it be, and stay where you are in that uncertainty, all sorts of new things show up. Stuff you never could have imagined or never could have dreamed. Your whole life could be just popping up all of these possibilities. In that moment you stop engaging with those compulsions, you could go in a hundred different directions if you're willing to let the uncertainty be there. And I think that that's really important.  I want to tell a story, but I have to change the details in my head just for confidentiality. But I'm thinking of a person who I have worked with, who would be stuck and ruminating about, is this the right thing? I could make decisions and how do I-- for example, how do I do this lecture? My slides need to be perfect and ruminating, ruminating, ruminating about how it works. And one day they decided, “Okay, I'm just going to be present and I'm just going to teach.” And they taught with a partner. And the person themself noticed like, “Wow, I felt so much more connected to my students. This was amazing.” And the partner teaching with them was like, “I've never seen you so on. That was amazing.” They contacted this joy and like, “This is what it could be like.” And it's like this freedom shows up for you. And it's something that we think we know. And OCD loves to know, and it loves to tell you, it knows the whole story about everything. And it's more what you get back when you stop doing the compulsions if you really, really choose that. It's so much more than just, “Oh, I'm okay. I noticed that thought.” it's so much more than that. It's like, yes, and you get to do all this amazing stuff.  Kimberley: Right. I mean, it's funny. I always have my clients in my head. When someone says something, I'm imagining my client going, “But like, but like...” What's the buts that are coming? Lisa: And notice that process. But see, that's it. That's your mind, that's their minds jumping back in being like, “See, there it is again.” Kimberley: Yeah. Lisa: And what if we just don't know? Using Curiosity to Stop Mental Compulsions  Kimberley: And this is what I love about this. I agree with you. There have been so many times when I've dropped myself out of-- I call it being heady and I drop into my body and you get this experience of being like, “Wow.” For me, I can get really simple on like, “Isn't it crazy that water is clear?” I can go to that place. “Water is clear. That is incredible.” You know what I mean? It's there to go to that degree. But then, that's the joy in it for me. It's like, “Wow, somebody literally figured out how to make this pen work.” That still blows my mind.  Lisa: I had a moment. I started horseback riding again for the first time in literally-- I've ridden on and off once a year or something, but really riding. And actually, it was taking classes and stuff for the first time in 30 years. And they put me in this class and I didn't know what level it was. I just thought we were just going to walk around and trot and all that stuff. Plus, she starts setting up jumps. And I was like, “Oh my God, this is old body now. This is not going to bounce the way it might have been.” It's what means all these 15-year-olds in the class. Kimberley: Wow. Lisa: I'm third in line and I'm just on the horse absolutely panicking and ruminating like, “Oh my God, am I going to die? Should I do this? What am I going to do? Should I tell her no? But I want it and I don't know what I'm going to--” and my head was just so loud. And so, the two girls in front of me go. And then I look at the teacher and I go, “Are you sure?” It's literally the first time I've ever done in 30 years. She just went-- she just looked at me. And I noticed that my legs squeezed the horse with all of the stuff rolling around in my head. And I went over the jump and it was, I didn't die. It was really messy and terrifying. Oh my God, it was so exciting and joyful. And I was so proud of myself. That's what you get-- Kimberley: And I've heard that from so many clients too.  Lisa: It's so awesome.  Kimberley: I always say it's like base jumping. It's like you've got to jump. And then once you've jumped, you just got to be there. And that is true. There is so much exhilaration and sphere that comes from that. So, I love that. What about those who base jump or squeeze the horse and they're dropping into discomfort that they haven't even experienced before, like 10 out 10 stuff. Can you walk me through-- is it just the same? Is it the same concept? What would you advise there? Lisa: So, I think it's important to notice that when that happens, people are not just experiencing physical sensations and emotions, but it's also whatever their mind is telling them about it. And I think this is another place where ACT is super helpful to just notice, like your mind is saying, this is 10 out of 10. What does that mean to you? That means like, oh my gosh. And just noticing that and holding it lightly while you're in that 10 out of 10 moment, I think, is really, really helpful.  So, for example, I have a really intense fear of heights where I actually freeze. I can't actually move when I'm on the edge of something. And I had a young client who I've worked with for a while. And as an exposure for her, but also for me as her clinician to model, we decided. She wanted me to go rock climbing with her, which is not something I've ever done, ever, and also fear of heights. So, I kept telling myself, “Fear of heights, this is going to suck. This is going to be terrible. This is going to be terrible.” And there was also another part of me interested and curious.  And so, what I would say when you're in that 10 out of 10 moment, you can always be curious. So, when you're like, “Oh my gosh, I'm really scared,” the moment you're unwilling to feel that is the moment it's going to overwhelm you. And if you can notice it as a thought, “I'm having the thought, I don't think I can handle this. I don't think I'm going to survive this,” and notice it and be curious, let's see what happens. And so, for me, I noticed interestingly, even though I'm terrified of heights, I wasn't actually scared at all. And that was a shocker, because I was full sure it was going to be the worst thing ever.  And so, notice the stories your mind tells you about what an experience is going to be and stay curious. You can always be curious. And that's going to be, I think, your number one tool for finding your way through and how to handle those really big, unexpected, and inevitable surprising moments that happen in life that are really scary for all of us. Kimberley: Right. And when you say curious, I'm not trying to get too nitpicky on terms, but for me, curiosity is, let's experiment. I always think of it like life is a science experiment, like let's see if my hypothesis is true about this rock climbing. Is there a way that you explain curiosity? Lisa: Yeah. Well, that's part of it, but it's also part like what you were describing. Isn't water cool? It's more than, is this true or not true? That's so narrow. You want, “No, really? What does this taste like?” And that's the mindfulness piece. Really notice all of it. There's so much. And when you start doing that, you'll find-- even if you do it outside of exposure, for example, as practice, you start to notice that the present moment is a little bit like Hermione's purse in Harry Potter, where you think it's this one thing, and then when you start to expand your awareness, you notice there's tons of cool stuff. So, in these big, scary moments, what you might see is a sense of purpose or a sense of, “Holy crap, I'm handling this and I didn't think I could. Wow, this is amazing,” or “I'm really terrified. Oh my gosh, my nose itches.” It could be anything at all.  But the bottom line is, our bodies were meant to feel and they were meant to experience all the emotions. And so, there is no amount of emotion or fear or anything that we are not built to handle. Emotions are information. And to stay in the storm when it's such a big storm, when OCD is ramping you up, it teaches the OCD, “Actually, I guess I get to stand down here eventually, I guess I don't need to freak out about this so much. Huh, interesting. I had no idea.” I don't know if that's helpful or not.   Kimberley: No, it's so helpful. It is so helpful because I think if you have practiced curiosity, it makes sense. But for someone who maybe has been in mental compulsions for so long, they haven't really strengthened that curiosity muscle. Mindfulness for Mental Compulsions Lisa: That's so true. So, start small. Don't start in the storm. Start with waking up in the morning and noticing before you open your eyes, what do you hear? How do the covers feel? Do you hear the birds outside your window? Start with that. And start in little moments, just practicing during the day. Start a conversation with someone you care about, and notice what your mind is saying in response to them, what it's like to notice their face. Start small, build it up, and then start practicing with little tiny, other kinds of discomfort. Sometimes we'll tell people like impatience. When you're waiting in line or in hunger or tiredness, any of those, to just bring your full awareness to that and be like, “What is it like inside this moment right now?” And then you can extend that to, “Okay. So, what if we choose to approach this scary thing? What if we choose to just for a few seconds, notice what it feels like in this uncertain space?” And that's how you might begin to bring it to rumination, be curious about what was the triggering thought. And then before you start ruminating or before you start doing mental rituals, just notice the first thought, and then you don't have to answer that question. And there's different ways to handle that, but curiosity is the beginning. And then stopping the compulsion is ultimately, or undoing it or undermining it in some way is going to be the other important piece. Kimberley: I'd love to hear more about commitment. I always loved-- when I have multiple clients, we joke about this all the time. They'll say, “I had these mental compulsions and you would be so proud. I was so proud. I was able to catch it and pull myself back into the present. And yes, it was such a win. And then I had another thought and you'd be so proud of me. I did the same thing. And then I had another thought and...” Lisa: You're like, “Was that the show that you just did right there?” It's sneaky, huh. Kimberley: And so, I'd love to hear what you're-- and maybe bring it from an ACT perspective or however you would. It's like you're chugging away. “I'm doing good. Look at me go.” But OCD can be so persistent. Lisa: It's so tricky.  Kimberley: And so, is that the commitment piece, do you think? What is that? How would you address that?  Lisa: So, if I'm getting your question right, you're asking about, what do we do when OCD hijacks something that you should do and turns it into a ritual? Is that what you're asking?  Kimberley: Yes. Or it just is OCD turns up the volume as like, “No, no, no, no. You are going to have to tend to me or I'm not going to stop,” kind of thing. Lisa: Yes. That is a commitment piece. And it's funny because there's different ways that I think about this, but it's almost like a little child who has a tantrum. If you keep saying yes, every time they make the tantrum bigger, it's going to end up being a pretty big tantrum. And OCD loves nothing more than a good tantrum. Kimberley: So true. Lisa: And so, the thing you have to do is plan for that and go, “Yeah, it's going to get loud. Yeah, it's going to say whatever it needs to say, and it's going to say the worst thing I can think of.” And I have had my clients call this all sorts of different things like first-order thoughts, second-order thoughts, just different variations on the theme where it's going to ramp up to hook you in. And so, really staying very mindful of that and making a promise to yourself.  One of my clients who helped us a lot in teaching but also in writing stuff that's loud, Ethan, I think said it in this really elegant way. He said, make a promise to yourself. That really matters, even if it's small. It doesn't matter how big it is. But one of his first ones was, under no circumstances, am I going to do X the compulsion? And keep that promise to yourself because if you-- anybody who ever woke up and didn't want to get out of the bed in the morning because, “Ah, too tired, it's too early. I don't really want to go to the gym.” If you know you're in that conversation with yourself about, “Well, maybe just one more minute,” you've already lost. And so, this is a good place again for that ACT piece of diffusion. Noticing your mind or your OCD or your anxiety is pulling you into, “Ah, let's just see if we can string you along here.” And so, what needs to happen is just move your feet and put them on the floor. Don't get into that conversation with yourself. And having that commitment piece, that promise to myself with the added value piece, that really matters. And one other thing that's sometimes helpful that I have-- I'll use this myself, but I also teach my clients, remembering this question: If this is a step towards whatever it is that's really important, am I willing to allow myself to feel these things? Am I willing? And remembering that as a cue. We're not here. It's never about this one exposure. It's about, this is a step towards this other life that you are fighting for. And every single step is an investment in that other life where you're getting closer and you're making it more possible, and just remembering that. I think that that's a really important piece. A Values Tool YOU NEED!  Kimberley: Yeah. It actually perfectly answered the question I had, which is, you're making a commitment, but what to? And it is that long-term version of you that you're moving towards or the value that you want to be living by. Would you suggest-- and I've done a little bit of work on the podcast about values. Maybe one day we can have you back on and you can share more about that, but would you suggest people pick one value, three values? How might someone-- of course, we all have these values and sometimes OCD can take things from us, or anxiety can take those things from us. How would you encourage someone to move in that direction? Lisa: Well, actually, do you want to do a fun thing? Kimberley: I do. Lisa: Okay. So, let's do-- Kimberley: I never would say no to that. I would love to. I'm really curious about this fun thing. Lisa: All right. So, do you like coffee or are you a tea person or neither? Kimberley: Let's go tea. I'm an Australian. If I didn't say tea, I would be a terrible Aussie.  Lisa: They'll kick you off. All right. So, Kim, think about in your life a perfect cup of tea, not just a taste, but a moment with someone maybe you cared about or somewhere that was beautiful or after something big or before something big, or just think about what was a really, really amazing important cup of tea that you've had in your life. Kimberley: Oh, it's so easy. Do I tell you out loud?  Lisa: Yeah. If you want to, that'd be great.  Kimberley: I'll paint you guys a picture. So, I live in America, but my parents live in Australia and they have this beautiful house on a huge ranch. I grew up on a farm. And we're sitting at their bay window and you're overlooking green. It's just rolling hills. And my mom is on my left and my dad is on my right. And it's like milky and there's cookies. Well, they call them biscuits. So, yeah. That's my happy place right there. Lisa: And I could see it in your face when you're talking about it. So, where do you-- does that tell you something about what's really important to you?  Kimberley: Yes. Lisa: What does it tell you? Kimberley: Family and pleasure and just savoring goodness, just slowing down. It's not about winning a race, it's just about this savoring. And I think there's a lot-- maybe something there that I think is important is the green, the nature, the calm of that. Lisa: Yeah. So, as you talk about that, what are you noticing feeling? Kimberley: Oh my God, my heart just exploded 12 times. My heart is filled. That was the funnest thing I've ever done in my whole life. Funnest is not a word. Lisa: What if you could build your life around moments like that? Would that be a well of life for you? Kimberley: I think about that nearly every time I make tea, actually. Lisa: That's how you would help your clients, and that's one way to think about values. Kimberley: Wow. That is so cool. I feel like you just did a spell on me or something. Lisa: You just connected with the stuff that's really important. So, when you think about if I had a hard thing to do, what if it was a step towards more of that in your life? Kimberley: Yeah. Lisa: You see?  Kimberley: It's so powerful. I've never thought that. Oh my God, that was gold. And so, that's the example. Everyone would use that, coffee or tea. Lisa: There you go. Just think about it. And it's funny because we came up with this in our team, maybe three months ago. We keep piloting just new little values exercise, but it's so funny how compelling it is. just thinking about-- gosh. Anyway, I could tell you about mine, but you get the point.  Kimberley: And you know what's so funny too and I will say, and this is completely off topic, there's a social media person that I follow on Instagram. And every time she does a live-- and for some reason, it's so funny that you mentioned this, I love what she talks about, but to be honest, I'm not there to watch her talk. The thing that I love the most is that she starts every live with a new tea and she'll pause the water in front of you. It's like a mindfulness exercise for me. To be honest, I find myself watching to see whether she's making tea. Not that this is about tea, but I think there's something very mindful about those things that where we slow down-- and the water example, she's pouring it and she's watching the tea. And for some reason, it's like a little mini-break in the day for me.  Lisa: I totally agree. It's like the whole sky, the cloud, and the tea and the-- Kimberley: Like Thich Nhat Hanh. Lisa: Yes. I can't remember the quote, but exactly.  Kimberley: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I love that example. So good. Well actually, if you don't mind, can you tell us your tea? Because I just would love to see if there's a variation. So, what would yours be? Lisa: It was funny because I think I did coffee the first time I did this, but then recently I just did a workshop in Virginia and I was like, “Oh my gosh, tea.” And what came to mind was, when I took my 17-year-old daughter tracking in the Himalayas to Nepal, because I wanted her. She was graduating from high school and I wanted to show her that you could do anything and she really wanted to go. We both really wanted to go to Ever Space Camp. And every morning after trekking nine, 10, 11 hours a day where you're freezing cold, you're exhausted, everything's hurting, and it's also amazing and beautiful, the guides would knock at our door and there would be two of them. And one of them would have a tray of little metal cups. And then the other one would say, “Tea? Sugar? Would you like sugar?” And they would make you, they would bring you, and this was how you woke up every morning, a steaming cup of tea. Sometimes the rooms were 20 below zero. And you'd get out of bed and you'd be so grateful for that warm cup of tea. And that was the tea I remembered. Kimberley: Right. And then the values you pulled from that would be what? Lisa: That moment, it was about being with my daughter and it was about showing her, modeling courage and modeling willingness and just adventure and this love of being in nature and taking a journey and seeing, “Could we do this? And what would it be like?” And just sharing the experience with her. It's just beautiful. And the tea is right in the center of that. So, it's almost not even about the tea, but it's that moment. It's that time and that experience. So amazing. Kimberley: So amazing. Thank you. I'm deeply grateful. That just filled my heart.  Lisa: I'm so glad. I feel so honored that you have had experience. I love that so much. Kimberley: I did. I always tell my clients or my kids or whoever is at-- when I was a kid, my mom, every afternoon when I came home from school, she'd say, “What's the one thing you learn at school today?” And so still, there's always one thing I learn and I always note it like that's the one thing I learned today and that was it. What an amazing moment.  Lisa: I'm so glad.  Kimberley: Okay. I love this. So, we've talked about mindfulness and we've talked about commitment. We've talked about values and we have talked about the acceptance piece, but if we could have just one more question around the acceptance piece. How does that fit into this model? I'm wondering.  Lisa: It's funny because I always feel like that acceptance piece, the word, it means to so many people, I think, tolerance or coping or let's just make this okay. And it doesn't mean any of those things. And so, I've moved more into thinking of it and describing it as, it's like a willingness. What is under the hood of acceptance and am I willing? Because you cannot like something and not want something and also be willing to allow it. And it's almost like this-- again, it involves curiosity about it. It involves squeeze the horse with all the stuff. Get the feet on the floor, even though you're having an argument that's in your head. And so, sometimes people think about it as a feeling and sometimes it is, but a lot of times, it's willingness with your feet. When you think about moms and infants in the middle of the night, I don't think there was ever a moment when I was like, “Oh yeah, the baby's crying at 4:00 in the morning. I'm so excited to get up.” I'm feeling in my heart, no. It's like you're exhausted and it's like the last thing you want to do and 100% you're willing to do it. You choose. And so, that's the difference. And so, I think people get tangled up, not just thinking of it as tolerance, but also waiting for a feeling of willingness to happen. And that's not it. It's a choice. Kimberley: It's gold. Lisa: Yeah, seriously. I mean, it's the same thing. I learn it every day. Trust me, when I fall out of my gym routine or my running routine and I'm off the willingness, and then I'm like, “Yeah, that's not it.” And I have to come back to it. So, it's something we all struggle with. And I think that's really important to know too, but ultimately, it's a choice, not a feeling. Kimberley: Okay. That was perfect. And I'm so happy. Thank you, number one. This is just beautiful for me and I'm sure the gifts just keep going and flowing from this conversation. So, thank you.  Lisa: Thank you for having me. Kimberley: Tell me where people can hear more about you and know your work? Lisa: Well, we're at the New England Center for OCD and Anxiety in Boston. We have recently opened in New York City and in Ireland. So, if anybody is in Ireland, call us, look us up. Kimberley: Wow. Lisa: Yeah. That's been really fun. And there's a few books we have. There's Stuff That's Loud written by Ben Sedley and myself. There's our newest book called Stop Avoiding Stuff with Matt Boone and Jen Gregg. And that's a fun little book. If anybody's interested in learning about ACT, it's really written-- the chapters are each standalone and they're written so that you could read them in about two minutes, and that was on purpose. We wanted something that was really pocket-sized and really simple with actionable skills that you could use right away. And then I have a new book coming out actually really soon. And no one knows this. Actually, I'm announcing this on your show. And I am writing it with my colleague, Sarah Cassidy-O'Connor in Ireland. We are just doing the art for it now and it's a book on ACT for kids with anxiety and OCD.  Kimberley: When is this out? Lisa: Good question. I want to say within the year, but I don't remember when. Kimberley: That's okay.  Lisa: But look for it and check out our website and check out Stuff That's Loud website. We'll post it there and let folks know. But yeah, we're really excited about it. And it'll be published by a UK publisher. So, it's really cute. So, I think the language will be much more like Australia, UK, Ireland for the US, which is really fun because I have a connection to Ireland too. But anyway, there you go.  Kimberley: It's so exciting. Congratulations. So needed. It's funny because I just had a consultation with one of my staff and we were talking about books for kids. And there are some great ones, but this ACT work, I think as I keep saying, there's skills for life.  Lisa: It really is. Kimberley: So important. How many times I've taught my child, even not related to anxiety, just the ACT skill, it's been so important. Lisa: Yeah. Mine too. I think they're so helpful. They were just really helpful with flexibility in so many different areas. Kimberley: Right. I agree. Okay. This is wonderful. Thank you for being on. Like I said, you brought it home.  Lisa: We'll have our cups of tea now. Kimberley: We will Lisa: So nice to talk to you, Kim.  Kimberley: Thank you. Lisa: Thank you.

Today's conversation about membership programs for humane businesses fits under the P of Product of the Humane Marketing Mandala. We're talking about the membership business model today. I recently recorded a muse episode about two books I re-read regarding this same topic, so if you missed that solo episode go back and take a listen. But today I brought in an expert of this topic, whom I just heard on my friend Leisa Peterson's podcast and loved her 'realness'. So today I bring to you Lisa Princic. Lisa is the owner of Scaling Deep. Over the last 12 years, she has helped 100's impact-driven business owners dive deep into their unique value and business models to build sustainable & profitable brands. Lisa helps coaches, consultants and professionals become thought leaders and increase their impact and wealth with membership programs. A staunch believer in business simplicity and intention, she helps her clients accomplish their goals by focusing on what to do AND what to ignore. Lisa loves a challenge with adventure and can often be found skiing or biking in the coastal mountains of BC. In this episode, you'll learn about membership programs for humane businesses as well as... Memberships in 2022 and what people want now (compared to 10 years ago) Difference between a community and a membership? the different types of memberships Pricing of memberships How to get members to stay And much more…   Lisa's Resources   Lisa's Website The Membership Success Blueprint Bootcamp Connect with Lisa on: Facebook LinkedIn Instagram Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] [00:06:00] [00:07:00] Hey, Lisa. So good to talk to you today. Thanks.  Lisa: So great to be here.  Sarah: Awesome. Yeah, we just recently connected and I love these connections where you're like, oh yeah, I have to have you on the show. And now you get all these pitches in your inbox. You have. So you, you must no, thanks. No, thanks. I just rather reach out to people that I really want to have on. So when I heard you on Lisa, the other Lisa, a podcast, I'm like, oh yeah, that sounded real authentic. Even though authentic is such a buzzword, but that's what I felt like when I listened to you. So  Lisa: it's still a good word. I still like the word. Cool.  Sarah: Good to have you. I'm looking forward to talking about memberships and how to kind of create a membership site or whatever community, whatever you want to call it, but build it in a [00:08:00] humane way, because that's what we're all about here on this show in a way that is probably not just all about. Scaling and going big or going home. And that's kind of the feeling that I got. I got when I heard you talk. And then I went over to your website and then your website is called scaling deep and I'm like, oh yeah. Tell me more. Yeah. Tell, tell me a bit about scaling deep. And then we dive into. Membership sites. Lisa: Yeah. Well, scaling team really means a lot to me and I probably don't talk about it enough. So thanks for, thanks for asking, because it really is about honoring our nature of wanting to, to grow and evolve. And we're not people who just, I mean, most people don't just want to get to a point and they're like, I'm done, I've stopped striving or trying things. I mean, because again, it's, it's our makeup, right? So denying that it [00:09:00] does get us into. It's like trouble. When we say we don't want to earn, or we say we don't want to grow, or we don't want to make something big because it's, it's what we're wired for all of us to different extents. So I think when we can figure out how to do it in a way that has more impact or that feels richer and feels more rewarding, then we're honoring that and we're still doing something good. And we don't necessarily have to do things that are changing the world overnight because that's a lot of pressure also, and we're able to just honor that, but then also just do more good with it. And I think that's a lot of people who I work with too. They are people who aren't necessarily motivated all by money and it's and yet earnings is a way to evaluate. Our success, our impact, and just how we're performing as humans. So it's a really challenging [00:10:00] balance and I really liked just the concept of, well, what would you do if you did grow naturally, would you be setting goals? Like I need to make this, this next year and setting huge team goals, or would you be also saying, well, how can we have like a greater impact? Like how can we make the experience better for everyone? If there's profit, for example, rather than just thinking about it as a, as an egocentric milestone that we're bragging to the world. And I think there's a lot more businesses out there like that than we know, but they're just not telling us how huge they are, because they're just growing naturally from doing good work. And there's a lot of memberships out there doing that. And they are the ones that are doing like loads and loads of ads or on every, or doing huge podcast tours and all that. And so they're growing in a meaningful way. So I think that that's just really what I stand for. And I want more people to recognize that you can have both. And if you deny growth, [00:11:00] It's frustrating also, because then we know we're not living our potential just because we say, well, I'm not interested in money. So there's this whole rabbit hole there of, I can really, what's gone on in my mind for how many years really that I won't get into.  Sarah: Yeah, yeah. To two things come to mind. First of all, the ego. Yeah. It's like the ego keeps talking to us and say, But, you know, you should really go bigger and bigger and bigger. And what I've learned over the years, even though, like you said, I'm not motivated by money to the extent where it's almost like  Lisa: becomes a problem. Yeah. And that's what I'm trying to get at. It does become a problem because then we're then in a way, we're like, what are we doing, working with? All this hard for free and not really earning a lot or earning enough from what we're putting out into the world. So monetizing the content and all that stuff has to, has to happen. And unless you're just not in that position and then that's a different, that's a different thing altogether. So I think that's where you [00:12:00] there's that balance. Because again, that can just be sabotage in some ways, like why aren't we spending more time? I'm feeling relaxed and peaceful around her family or something, then hammering towards something and then not earning enough. So again, it's a bit problematic. So that's why I think if we get into purpose, And we feel like we working as a good thing to do. Like it's, it's part of a a good way to live. I, we, we weren't really built for leisure, you know, all the time and we want to work towards good things. So if we can do that and then find the join, it put a reasonable amount of time in, and then. The rewards come together from fulfillment, also the earnings, because we're really in our, in our space. And I think that's really the answer. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah. And you're right. That the society does always put success together with money, but. We're actually, I'm really challenging that I don't think that [00:13:00] needs to be the definition of success. I'd rather have a business where I'm not working all the time and, you know, making less money, but enough money for myself. And so I think that's also what you're saying with these membership that the membership business model, that's something that is actually. Feasible it's doable. Right. And it, it's not, it doesn't need to be in that slimy way where it's like, oh, I'm spending all my time at the beach while making loads and loads of money. That's not, that's not because that's kind of what the membership site model used to be in the days. It was like this lifestyle,  Lisa: you know, all of online business, 10 years ago. All of them. When I first started really seeing everything online, it really was the laptop at the beach, like in the, in the early 2010 kind of era. I mean, that's what everyone was, was encouraging. So yeah. And members and any scalable model. I mean, I think what we're seeing [00:14:00] is that in general, in online business, people are, are kind of dropped that because they know that that's not real. And, and yet they're just saying. Grow in a way that allows you to kind of sell one to many. And, and then there are, you know, there's, trade-offs, there's, there's intense moments when you're growing a business based on some level of volume, there is launching, you know, there is, there are some there moments where you are going to work extra hard, but I think it's all about trying to find a sustainable balance because, you know, and truthfully. Most people are not sustainable. Like there, they are putting more in than they're earning in a membership model at the beginning. And that's kind of where I really want to come in and help people figure that out because we also don't want to be working for years and not earning enough and putting too much time into it. And you know, it's really got to work. It's got to work. After a certain period, like any startup, like [00:15:00] any business has got, there's gotta be a tipping point where there are more profit and it comes at easier, you know, at a greater ease. Sure. And we'll get into  Sarah: that. I want to start kind of like what we said before, maybe, you know, 10 years ago, what a membership site was and what people want today and how that has maybe changed over time. I remember being a member of some of these sites. Sites or whether they recalled and it just downloads tons and tons of information downloads. And in the end, everybody just felt, and that's a big topic for me. Everybody felt more anxious. There was more anxiety because there was a huge overload of information and people are like, ah, now I feel still like a loser because I don't  Lisa: know what to tell with that. And that was back in the day when we used to let people know. Tell us what success was and we did it discern. And because that was again, early days of online everything. And I think that's when we would say, [00:16:00] well, if we don't do all this, whereas now I think people are more savvy, no matter who they are and what sophistication they're coming into the space, they are saying like this isn't working for me or this, this isn't despite the fact that you're telling me, I need to follow these steps. Like I'm stuck here and it's not working. So I think we are, people are more vocal. So there's no one really able to get away with just saying I'm going to overwhelm them and then they will, they will stay because they'll feel like they should be doing something. I think the consumer is more savvy now, so that's changed. And that's why we really have to be a very. Mindful of sort of what we deliver as membership, business owners as well.  Sarah: So more savvy. I would also add probably more conscious in terms of, you know, what I talk about, but I know you talk about it as well. The marketing piece it's like, how do we get people into our membership? Well, they're more savvy, but they're also more conscious. So they're going to know when you're. BSC me with all [00:17:00] this stuff that it's, it's just not realistic and feasible. So the consciousness has, has to me, has risen over the last few years as well. So yeah,  Lisa: I'm connection. I think people, well, I mean, I'm, I'm hoping, so, I mean, I'm really hoping that people are. Buying for the right reasons. And I think that's the part that I find the biggest problem is one is how things are positioned in marketing. When we hear example after example, after success, story of success stories in a program that's had thousands and thousands and thousands of people in them. And then they're cherry picking like. A few people who were in the right place at the right time with the right niche and the right everything to, to have increased, like have done really well, really fast. And that's positioned like, that's the typical result when it's actually, yes, it's a testimonial, but it's all it's rather than saying, well, that only happened to like a half a percent of the people who've ever taken this program. So I think there is [00:18:00] still lack of ethics there around that, because. You when you were selling something that nobody can like look at touch, see, feel, and try on, and then return you. I think you need to actually, you can use real examples of this person got this benefit and allowed them to do this thing, but not blanketing it in a, we're not going to tell you the details. They just came, joined this thing. Got this miraculous result, you can do it too. So I think that's where I'm hoping people get still even more critical and, and discern what they're really actually getting because this smoke and mirrors thing is still happens all the time. Yeah. It's still  Sarah: happening. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about the different types of memberships, because I talked to you about kind of like a community. Membership sites. What's the difference. Oh, okay. Okay. I think you have three types  Lisa: or, well, okay, so there's three. Okay. There's three models and three types. And I [00:19:00] know I could come up with some better language, but the three, so the three models I like talking about, and I'll just show you karaoke briefly, or this sort of idea of like, where does it fit within your business model? So there's like the warmup. Which it's the lead usually lower ticket, but I've got bigger ticket programs that I want to sell to these people. And that works really well. When you have a lot of people who come into your world or find out about you and just want to join something right away. There's the flagship model, which is kind of your all in one. Like this is the thing that you want to grow. And the only thing you want to grow, and you want to have all your deliverables in one place, like you want one program, and then there's the follow-up. Easy, easier, because if you've got a lot of one-on-one clients or people you've worked with in programs, you can simply invite them to continue doing the learning and the growth over time together that you started working on and more privately together. And then it just keeps them. Threaded to you. So tethered, I should say to you, so that, that those are like, those are ways to [00:20:00] think about it. Like how does it fit within your business model and what can you expect around like planning? Like what are you going to charge for it? I mean, if you've been charging expensive VIP days with clients, you can probably charge, you don't have to charge a super low, low amount when you for up work, because it's going to be a lot less than how they bought from you privately. So I just, I do like to put that out there because I want people to see. Why they're doing it, like, how does it fit within their model and the first place? And then second of  Sarah: all, can I, can I just go in there, warm up is, is kind of an audience building almost, right? Yeah.  Lisa: Okay. And he can work well for audience building if it's lower ticket and yeah. I mean, yeah. Cause it can be something that we could also be a loss leader. Like meaning if we have these amazing programs that we want people to do intensive work in, then we can have people come in to that. And if they don't, it doesn't even have to be profitable [00:21:00] if we're really getting our clients, our main earnings from the membership who buy into different programs. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Good and interesting model. Yeah. And then I think you were asking sort of about like how to structure the membership when you have a membership and you're asking, okay, what are the components of it? And I think that's, what is that what you're asking? Like, what does, like, what really determines what's the membership? Yeah. Kinda  Sarah: like, you know, is it content-based, is it community-based I remember those two types that you were mentioning, I just finished watching your four day. What is it called? Bootcamp? Yeah. Unfortunately that's over, but hopefully it'll do it again. So we'll link to a waiting list or  Lisa: something like that. Yeah. But yeah,  Sarah: you mentioned that the, those different structures, I don't know what you  Lisa: call them. It's structure for deliverables. And this is the [00:22:00] sustainability piece actually, which is good to talk about because a lot of people, again, feel overwhelmed by what they think they have to create for their members every month. And then usually when they feel that way, they overwhelm their members by just trying to stuff too much. And so when I, when I look at what the three ways of delivering are in a membership, It, especially for a service provider, there is a mentorship. So I consider that live calls. It could also be a Facebook Q and a live all the way. I that, to me borders a little bit less on, on mentorship, because it's, it's hard to get Q and a, it's hard to ask the questions and have conversation in a chat when they're live. And then there's the education model, which really is content. I mean, there was someone in. That we had some VIP calls in the bootcamp this week, and there's someone who has templates and training. So every month she wants to deliver templates and trainings. So that is more of an education model. It may [00:23:00] have a community aspect of it. It may that the mentorships in the training, but it's less about being coached. And then there's a community aspect. And then I have someone in the inside the profitable membership club who has a live event every year and the people really want to stay the attendees, want to stay connected. So she has. Community-based membership that that goes throughout the year and that is, she's not providing, she's doing prompts and events and things inside that, but it's really about people staying connected and, and being inspired by the connections to take action and, and do the things that she's encouraging them to do for themselves. So those are three types and you can have all three. I just want people to really know what is your strength? Like? What is your strong. Suit in those three. And if you need to gradually build up because you don't have loads and loads of members you're, cause you'll have a lot more in a membership of a thousand people than you will have 10, because if you've got [00:24:00] 10, people are getting access to you and they're getting. Handheld a bit more. So you don't have to put in all the things that a thousand person membership would need to be successful because they're going to be a little more on their own and lost. If you don't have a few things, they can access in different ways. So that that's really just. How do you focus on the one thing that you will do consistently every month? Even if he changed like times call times and types of content and all that, it's just rather than feeling you have to stuff everything in and have everything firing because it doesn't have to, like I said, I don't mind because I have calls and I do. Guest experts and like, I've got good content in there. I don't feel like if everyone doesn't want to chit chat in the community all the time, I'm not necessarily going to put a prompt in every single day.  Sarah: I love that. I just started a a Trello board for our community because I just really, really did not want to do Facebook, did [00:25:00] not want to do mighty networks. Did not want to do discord or slack. And yet the community wanted a way to be able to engage, which makes sense in between the calls. But I made it very clear that this is not going to be the place where I'm going to ask, you know, what did you have for dinner lights tonight, or what's your favorite, blah, blah, blah. And. And my people, they know that about we're all the same. We're like, no, no, no, we want a focused thing. And so Trello works really well for that. And I think that's also what you're telling your clients. It's like, choose what you're already good at and, and, and yeah. Make that even better. So  Lisa: yeah, like to try to find what you like, if you don't want to be on Facebook. Don't get on Facebook unless you've got something so obvious that if you not on Facebook, because it's like, your interest is like people who love certain kinds of dogs that do certain kind of dog things, and you want to have everyone in the whole world [00:26:00] be part of it that you know, that, that don't have a lot of technical savvy. Sarah: So difficult on LinkedIn.  Lisa: Yeah. Or, well, there's not, I don't even know if there's a proper group. Yeah, there is. But it doesn't work very well. You do want people just to show up and consume the content. And so. Even if I have a, have a slot community and it works really well, cause it's really organized. I love how organized it is. Probably similar to Trello in that it's kind of got some linear Ines to it and it's like, it's not I don't expect everyone to get all their information from there. I still email everybody every week with, and they all open their emails and that's still going to be probably. Full stop. Like every, every week, if you really want to know what's going on and don't want to miss something, then that going to go there. So I think that's just how you can run it until conversations can begin more organically and then you don't even have to be prompting. So if the goal isn't to get everyone to connect and get to know each other, On and [00:27:00] communicate regularly. If the goal is a different transformation, like I want you to be successful in this thing, then it doesn't have to be your number one focus because that's going to overwhelm you. And it's also going to overwhelm you. If you feel like people should be chatting it all the time when there's, when there's not very many people. I mean, there's a, there's a number that. One of my members actually shared with me. She said something about the rule of 99 and one you'll have one ambassador, really engaged person. Who's always in there and always talking, you'll have nine who are in, in and out, and then you'll have 90 who are alert and they're still not having small membership. That's what your probability of engagement is going to be.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing. What I love, what you're saying is like don't overwhelm yourself thinking that a membership site has to have thousands and thousands of videos already as you start. Right? Because obviously if we look [00:28:00] at some of the big membership sites that's.  Lisa: There's history, right? There's a lot in there from the past.  Sarah: Yeah. And so people can feel like, oh my God, I can never start one because I don't have all of this content. And so you're saying, well, then don't make it a content-based membership. Lisa: Well, or start with them. Like I actually am. We just have this call yesterday. And I actually have had couple content calls this week with bootcamp, people and members of the proper membership club. And. I like, I just say, look, layer, like, start with them. Like if you have month one, and you're just starting with your founding members and deliver a month of one, and if you have months to, because you're standing, starting with your foundational content, the things that are the most important, the things that you know best and that you believe people need first. So rather than opening it up like a. Choose your own adventure. I would say, look at it more like where do they need to begin and how do you take them together on it rather [00:29:00] than feel like you have a smorgasbord? Because I don't think people really want to dabble and you know, let's face it. Most things people can learn for free somewhere out there on the internet. So they're paying you for curation. They're paying you for a system to some extent to say like, or even just. Helping them remind them that they need to go back to the beginning. Like I always say that a lot of my members it's like, can you just go back to module one because they're still not doing the module one. Like they still won't go back to the foundation course or they're there. So I'm always reminding them to go back to that thing that they last said that they would do if there's. Launched their membership yet. Right. So I think that's where we have the, they're paying us in a way for that guide for that. It, it guidance. And even if we are like a large membership, there's still ways that people can ask I'm stuck. Where should I go? That's part of the benefit. And that is really the value rather than going out there on the internet and scouring it and trying to piece together a plan. Right. So I think that's where we don't. We can start just with. [00:30:00] Hey, here's a, I have a foundational course. That's nine modules. So I've started two cohorts of here's what we're going to work through this together week by week. And that's been how two enrollments worked in my membership program. I walked them through the modules and that was really helpful for them. So I think that's where you don't have to do that. But I also feel like if people are starting and you just have a hundred things, They're not going to want to go through a hundred things, right?  Sarah: Yeah. It's just too, again, it's just overwhelmed. It's like, oh, where do I start? Why did I sign up for this I'm feeling? Lisa: Yeah. They get one thing a month. They get one focus a month that they're not paying unless, you know, well, and actually even at high ticket, depends on the value of that to them, but I, you don't have to give them. You know, a thousand dollars of value in the first month, if you're charging less than that. So you have to realize that that if it's a hundred dollars a month, then it's 10 months and they can pick up as they go. [00:31:00] And, and then if they have a founding members rate there, they're paying less than say someone else who comes in later and might be paying double per month. And they might have access to some past things, but they probably won't even go in there and look for it. I mean, people still don't even know how to get around mine and I don't have that much in there, but they still, I have the still direct them to what I think I want them to watch. Yeah. Or like, or looking at. Yeah, no, they,  Sarah: they come for the ongoing, they don't come for  Lisa: all this stuff. That's exactly. Most people that don't have the capacity to, to look through everything. Yeah. Otherwise you're  video1044023036: spending  Sarah: your time managing, say, you know, pointing people to where it is and that can. Cumbersome once you have a lot of members,  Lisa: I end dimension. So you just need a really good roadmap when you start  Sarah: or, or a help desk or  Lisa: something. Yeah, absolutely. That's a good problem that we can deal with. Good problems. We just want to make sure that. We are not operating that way when we're not that big.  Sarah: [00:32:00] Yeah. Let's talk about how do you keep members because, you know, first, I guess we're struggling. Okay. How do we get members? But really what we're wanting to do is it's a sustainable concept that people aren't going to stay and, you know, hopefully for a year, maybe even longer, depending on, I guess, depending on the type of membership site But how do we get people  Lisa: to stay? So to me, it's a funny one. I really just think it comes down to be awesome and be a great deal, like really good value. Like people, whatever you're offering does need to be a good value exchange for them. I mean, people who use things even in a small way, Or appreciate that the resources there when they need it, like they will, they will stay because it's, it's a good value. And so that's why people often do a founding member rate because people are like, Hmm, [00:33:00] I might not use this next month, but I'm still paying half the price of people now or something like that. And they're like, okay. So if I skip every other month of actually doing something, it's still worth it to me or. They get on a call, they learn one really, really important thing that changes how they do things. And that ROI is huge. So I think first of all, you'd know who your ideal member is, and you have to be clear that if someone, like, for example, someone's in the profit membership club and they, they changed their mind about memberships or they're like, I'm not going to do, I'm not going to, this is not, not long, no longer my goal or I'm, I'm putting off indefinitely then. There, and then why would they stay? I mean, although if they're growing any kind of business, I still can help them in a way, but in their head they're like, oh, I'm here to learn about memberships there for, even if I'm learning about marketing and positioning and all the things you need to do for any program, it still means that it doesn't feel like it's the right fit for them. Or they're just [00:34:00] like, yeah. Or they're just taking a massive break and they're just going back to a one-on-one client. So they don't have to do any marketing or anything. So the point of that is that yes, I've picked that lane and saying I help membership business owners and people who want to launch them. That clarity brings people to me, easier her, like I'm here because I want this, this outcome. And then the trade-off is that you are not attractive to those who don't want that outcome, even though you could help them. But then that would water down the conversations and the focus and the sharing. And you just get really clear on who you help and what the transformation is. And then. That grows naturally because it's easy to share something that's easy to share. Right? So if you're clear about who you help and in what way, and you always talk to those people and you always produce content that would appeal to those people and et cetera, that's how you, that's, how you be relevant to them. And if [00:35:00] you're, if you're not. Sorry. It's the positioning really? That, yeah, all the positioning. I think it's all the positioning. And then as your membership matures, it is a little bit about the community and connection, because there are people who will stay because they just love you, or they love the other people they've met and they want to stay connected. And it is the mentor. There's some kind of mentorship connect community thing that is working for them. Helping them. Do more, better or less, you know, in an easier way. Like, it just, it does add value to them and you know, that stuff is priceless. Right. And people will know it. They will know if they're like, oh, I've networked. Or I met somebody and they, they, they gave me an opportunity that led to a client. And now I've paid for my membership for the year. I mean that, those relationships really do matter. So I think that that's why I'm not into all the tactics. Like you can do this thing and get them to do this [00:36:00] thing. I just want people to stay because it's the right for them, right? Yeah. And I want people who are committed, honestly. Like I, I know not, everyone's always committed to their goals all the time, but when you do get a group of people who are really committed and are following through and are taking action, you've got a really great place to be. And that's really the foundation of what you want for your membership. When you start our. Even if it builds slowly, you build that fire that can actually last and sustain because it keeps, you know, people who keep getting, like, adding to it who are, are, are also committed and then has sort of a life force of its own. That people can, that will see and feel, even if they're just lurking and saying, I'm not doing this thing yet, but I want to because look at all these other people, so they might be there for inspiration. Yeah. That brings me  Sarah: to another question because usually the membership model is like pay monthly and [00:37:00] cancel whenever you want. Yeah. And that kind of contradicts to committed, you know, it's like, yes, we want you to commit, but yes, you can also cancel every month. So do we have to follow this model where it's like, you can cancel anytime or, or do we say we'd love for you to stay for three months at least, or,  Lisa: or, yeah, I, I would, I mean, I even suggest that when you're launching. I suggest that because sometimes it might take a while to get your feet, you know, grounded and with what you're offering and how, and learning a few things. Then you do need to have a few months where you can. Yeah, a little bit of stuff worked out. So I would, yeah, I would, I would agree that it's good to get people. Like I had a few times where it was three months to start and then some people do a year. I mean, some people do longer and I think that's fine too. I think it's up to you. Because, yes, you'll get more committed. You'll get less. Like looky-loos like, you will get less people [00:38:00] who aren't committed and they won't join and then you just get more people. So there is a religious that trade off about what is the membership about to you anyway? Is it access to anyone at any time for when they need it or is it, is it really meant for people who are. Committed only and in a smaller group. And I think that's what you just have to decide. And what, what matters to you? Like what, what, and how kind of big your, your reaches and how much you're charging? Like could you, you know, could, could you sustain it if you didn't have some people here joining for maybe three to six months? Yeah, it's a, it's a personal choice. I mean, what really, to me, divine defines a membership is that you lose access when you cancel. So regardless you cancel you, you don't have the materials on like a course that you might have. And you've got lifetime access to it, which I think everything's starting to change a little bit on that. [00:39:00] And a lot of people are letting me losing, I guess, still stopping access to things when the time is up and they want them to keep paying, have continued access. So a lot of things are changing to subscription in general. However you know, you just decide on, on, what's going to get you a secure foothold to get started. And if you have a group of founding members and they're paying an irresistible price, that'll also keep them.  Sarah: I do think, yeah, obviously everything is going much more in the direction of subscription, but living in the times that we are in right now, people are also kind of starting to count their subscriptions because you know, used to be new, to have a subscription now is like, Everything is subscription. And so people are really more mindful. Okay. Again, do I get value out of  Lisa: this? Am I using  Sarah: it? Yeah. So,  Lisa: so you're, again, retention is about getting people to use it. Yeah. And, and, [00:40:00] and like, there's only so much within your control because if they're just not interested in the results any more than there. Then then they shouldn't be using it. And if they still are interested in the result, how do you bring them back in and remind them? What's what's here. That's, that's the communication piece. And it is okay to check in once in a while, if you haven't heard from a member and you're still small and be like, Hey, do you want to do a quick chat? I mean, I did one recently with someone who hadn't joined the community and hadn't showed up in a call and she's like, I've been really busy working in my. And in her career and, but I've been working through the course and I loving it and she's built through the whole court and she went through it kind of she's in academia very academically and went through all the modules. And I had no idea. So we make assumptions that people aren't using it to when they actually are. They're just not, we're just not seeing them use it. Yeah.  Sarah: That's funny. Cause I. Community to humane marketing circle is more about community and it's a think tank to figure out and talk to each other about [00:41:00] what works in marketing and what doesn't work. So and it's interesting that, you know, there's members that are never on the call. And yet I see, because I use Kajabi, I see that they're watching all the replays and one of them is sending me an email every time after the call. And she's like, I get a lot out of it, you know, even though I'm not on the live calls, so you can't assume what people want. So if it works for  Lisa: her, it works for me. Exactly, exactly. That's that's the other thing we have to recognize is that we can. We're not as in much control as another program where it's like, here's the, the set out, like we're going to meet three times a month. This is the time everyone has to show up because it's a mastermind. We're not running that kind of program. So we do have to let go a little bit and trust that people are going to self lead because that's what they're there for and make decisions that are right for them. And so that's so really just becomes about who are the people who are in the community. Sitting on the fence, not taking [00:42:00] action because they need, they need a little bit more guidance than that's. That's really who you have an ability to help, because really you do want people to get results too. You don't want people that are in there and happy to also keep paying, but then doing nothing. I mean, you do the swine. It's like, it's their choice, but the more of them that you can actually start to. Take action and be grateful for it and be good examples. That's really how you will become successful naturally in this model.  Sarah: Yeah. It nurtures you as the host of the, of the membership or  Lisa: the community. Totally, totally.  Sarah: So good. I'm looking at the time and I think it's starting to get time to wrap up, even though I have tons of other questions we might have to do around two  Lisa: anytime. Sarah: Yeah. Do you, do you tell them. Where people can find you maybe have something free that you want to [00:43:00] share, but tell us all about,  Lisa: yeah. Well, the coolest thing I have is an app. So I have a scaling deep app, which you can go onto and get all the, like, get all the trainings that I have scattered around the globe. There there's some of them aren't even available. So there's a scaling team app that is, is there that you can access that. Cool stuff. And if you're not an app person, you can go head on over to my website, scaling deep.com. I have like a, a free download on how to set up, how to scale your business with a membership site. You can get that at scaling gate.com/playbook and yeah. Or just come find me. I've got a Facebook group. I've got all kinds of ways, but you can see all that. If you land on my homepage on my website. Wonderful.  Sarah: I have one last question and that's what are you grateful for today or this week?  Lisa: I think I just grateful right now for my energy because of how to an energetic week running the bootcamp. And I've just felt really good. I'm grateful that I've feel like I'm in purpose and I've been having so much fun [00:44:00] that I've been focused on serving sustainably in a way, and also building assets. So I'm less, I'm less, I'm doing it for reasons of like needing to meet. Hit certain goals or certain outcomes. So just really feeling grateful for the, for the momentum I'm creating in my business. And the trust that I know that things are going in the right direction, then that's just a really good feeling. We don't always have it. So I'm super grateful for that.  Sarah: Yeah. And that's such a good, last word on, on memberships because we can get lost in those launches and just focus on numbers and how many new members do I need. So I think it's such a beautiful way to wrap this up and say, well, yeah, Enjoy the energy and, and enjoy serving the people who are there. So  Lisa: we got a lot of the work or else we, yeah, it's not the right word.  Sarah: Amazing. Thank you so much for being a guest on the humane marketing podcast.  Lisa: You're so welcome. Thanks for having me.[00:45:00] [00:46:00] 

Are you facing an obstacle that you fear you can't overcome, or a milestone you can't seem to reach? Don't let this emotion trap you; everyone experiences difficulties when starting something new. Face the challenge head-on! Conquering will make you stronger. And what better way to challenge yourself than by running a marathon?   This week, Angie and Trevor Spencer from the Marathon Training Academy join us for a conversation on all things marathon running. They share their experiences about their running journey and the marathoning community they created. Angie discusses how she got into marathoning and how it led to their podcast. They also recount their most memorable marathons and the lessons that they learned along the way. Finally, we learn the value of facing challenges, staying in the present, and paying attention to our overall health.  If you want to overcome life's obstacles and know how to train for a marathon, this episode is for you.    Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn more about Marathon Training Academy and how Angie and Trevor can help you train for a marathon.  Discover how you can keep challenging yourself.  Understand that we're all built differently.    Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-aging and longevity with NMN Bio.  A new programme, BOOSTCAMP, is coming this September to Peak Wellness!  Listen to my other Pushing the Limits episodes:  #8: Dean Karnazes - The Road to Sparta #183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova Newest Episode with Dean Karnazes  A Runner's High: My Life in Motion by Dean Karnazes Marathon Maniacs 50 States Marathon Club Spartan Race Spartan Up Podcasts Can You Endure? Lisa Tamati and Joe de Sena The Spartan Way by Joe de Sena Marathon Training Academy: Website | Podcast | Instagram | Twitter | Facebook      Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again. Still, I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third-party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful third-party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combats the effects of aging while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Episode Highlights [05:43] About Marathon Training Academy Inspired by Angie's experiences with marathons, Angie and Trevor started Marathon Training Academy back in 2010. Marathon Training Academy helps people learn how to train for a marathon. They also provide tips, strategies, and principles on how to run marathons well.  To date, the show has over 10.8 million downloads.  [08:15] Angie's Marathoning Career Angie shares that we need to be careful about comparing our accomplishments to others.  At first, she started running to lose weight. After giving birth to her second child, Angie signed up for her first 5k race.  Then, she decided she needed a bigger challenge, so she signed up for her first marathon.  Although the experience itself was miserable, Angie knew that she wanted to experience the feeling of finishing a marathon again.  Her personal experiences paved the way for Marathon Training Academy. She wanted to teach others how to train for a marathon so that they won't get injured.  [14:19] Learning How to Train for a Marathon to Avoid Mistakes Many runners think they don't need coaches, but it's essential to have guidance.   Seek good advice on how to train for a marathon so you can reduce injuries.  Being part of a community can also help you avoid costly mistakes.   [16:14] Marathon Training Academy's Growth They started in 2010, around the second wave of podcasting. Back then, many people were still not aware of what podcasts are.  We're now in the fourth wave of podcasting, where even news agencies and TV shows have podcasts.  Trevor shared that connecting with their audience helped build the community from the start.  So, they would do shout-outs during their episodes. They are also active on social media.   Angie and Trevor also recognise the value of their audience's time. So, they try to keep their episodes short while giving out as much valuable information as possible. [20:31] Angie's Journey Towards 50 Marathons in 50 States Angie first heard about running challenges when she encountered the Marathon Maniacs. You can get into this club if you do two races in two weeks or three in 90 days.  At first, she thought that she wasn't up to the challenge, but she proved herself wrong. We often make excuses about not being able to do something. If you surround yourself with people taking on these big challenges, you push yourself as well.  She then challenged herself to run 50 races in 50 states. This endeavour took 12 years. Trevor shares that Angie ran her 50th marathon the fastest. This achievement only proves that age can't stop you from challenging yourself.   [24:47] We're All Different We're all built differently, so don't feel pressured to do back-to-back marathons. Find what works best for you and your health.  Don't be caught up in the misconception that running marathons can slim you down.  Also, don't compare yourself to others — focus on yourself and your progress.  [29:10] Angie and Trevor's Most Memorable Races Trevor's favourite race was the Jungfrau Marathon in Switzerland because of the views. He talks more about the experience in the full episode. Meanwhile, Angie loves the Loch Ness Marathon in Scotland. She also enjoys several other races in the US.  Trevor shares that his toughest race was a 50k race in Montana. He admits that he wasn't able to train for it.  On the other hand, Angie's toughest race is the Leadville Trail Marathon. Located in Colorado, this race starts at 10,000 feet and continues to go up.  [34:23] Lessons Learned from Running Marathons Marathons can teach you a lot about life. As people, we're continuously changing and evolving.  Running accomplishments are good. However, you need to take care of your overall health as you train for a marathon.  We also have to learn how to appreciate the present and the challenges that come with it. Doing hard things prepares you for the struggles ahead. Marathoning teaches you to have a singular focus to reach your goals. [38:50] How Running Marathons Builds Resilience When you do hard things, it becomes easier to push through the obstacles in life. This idea is called obstacle immunity. It's important to acknowledge difficult situations, but don't let that stop you. Instead, use these emotions to fuel you.  Once you overcome a challenge, your horizon expands. You see the other battles you can overcome.  [43:59] How Angie and Trevor Balances Life Angie shares that being self-employed helps them find the time to run and train for a marathon.  They also try to include their children in the marathoning journey.    7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘Running is putting one step in front of the other and then being open to learning.' ‘I think doing things in community makes it so much richer.' ‘A lot of times we make excuses why we can't do something and sometimes, it seems very valid at the moment. But it's all a matter of priorities.' ‘For most of us, it is about you versus you. I think that's the beautiful thing about this sport. That we can all do this together but it's actually each of our journeys.' ‘It is important to have goals and everything, but I think it's also important to just look at your overall health.' ‘If I can't be happy now, I'm not going to be happy in the future. If I accomplish these goals, there's always going to be something else to chase.' ‘Having done hard things in the past prepares you for those challenges that you never wanted to take on in the first place.'   About Angie and Trevor Angie and Trevor Spencer started the Marathon Training Academy Podcast in 2010 to empower and inspire people to achieve better health with marathons. The show shares simple and actionable tips on how to train for a marathon.  Angie delved into the world of marathons after having her second child. However, she was plagued by training injuries. So, she was determined to find a better way to train for a marathon. Thus, the Marathon Training Academy was born.  She has since run 66 marathons with a PR of 3:19:55. She is also a Registered Nurse and a USATF Level 1 and RRCA Level 2 certified running coach. Meanwhile, Trevor is the manager and producer of the Marathon Training Academy. He has completed 17 marathons, one 50k, 21 half-marathons, and a Spartan Trifecta. Want to learn more about Marathon Training Academy? Check out their website and listen to their episodes on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, and Spotify.  You can also reach out to them on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook.            Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends to inspire them to seek challenges and teach them why it's crucial to train for a marathon well. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You can also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Transcript Of The Podcast  Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.  Lisa Tamati: Hi, everyone. Lisa Tamati here at Pushing the Limits. Welcome back to the show. Today, I have Trevor and Angie from the Marathon Training Academy in the United States, really well-known podcasters and run coaches. So our equivalent, over in the States. But these guys have been going for a long time and doing fantastic things. I heard their podcast when I was looking for information on my friend Dean Karnazes's latest book and listened to the podcast. I thought these guys are really rock stars, so I reached out to them. I have them on the show today so really exciting. They're in Montana in the United States, and they've got some great ideas and great information for you. This is one for the runners out there, and we get into all sorts of topics as well. Really, really exciting.  Before we head on over to the show, just want to let about our epigenetics program. We'd love you to come and do our flagship program about epigenetics to help you understand your genetics and how to optimise. This is really the future of personalised health is understanding what your genes are doing. All your health professionals should be personalising everything to your own genetics, and this information is pretty damn valuable. If you want to have a user manual for your own body, understand what food you should have, what types of exercise you'll benefit mostly from, your mood and behaviour, your hormones, what predispositions you have, all this fantastic information that you'll get about yourself when you go through this program.  Then, we can help you actually put it into place so how do you actually... Because it's great to get information and reports. A lot of the DNA reports that you get, you basically get 'Oh, that's nice' and it's a report and you stick it in your top drawer because you don't know what to do with it. But that's what we help you with. It's really powerful information that can really change your life. It certainly changed mine and changed my approach to different areas in what I do, what I eat, what times I do things, the way I set up my entire day, all of these things are affected. Head on over to lisatamati.com, hit the 'Work with Us' button and you'll see our Peak Epigenetics Program there.  We've also got BOOSTCAMP coming up on the first of September. You'll be listening to this after that so this round will have already started but we will be running this eight-week live webinar program again. We'd love you to come and check it out if you want to upgrade your life in all areas, understand how your biology works, understand everything that can help you achieve high performance, help you with health journeys, a really intimate small group of people who are wanting to upgrade their lives. Make sure you check that out. You can go to peakwellness.co.nz. I'll say that again, peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp.  Lastly, before we head to the show, don't forget our NMN supplements. nmnbio.nz is where you'll find out all the information about this longevity and anti-aging supplement by Dr Elena Seranova, a molecular biologist, really powerful supplement that has been doing some amazing things for me, and my life, and my family's health, and turning back the clock, basically. It's up-regulating your sirtuin genes, which are your longevity genes, helping with the NAD levels in your cells which are... Every single cell needs NAD and these deplete as we get older, so check out the science behind it, check out the information. There's two podcast episodes that I've done with Dr Elena also on Pushing the Limits, go and check those out if you want to do a deep dive into it. Head on over to nmnbio.nz.  Right. Now, just before we head over to the show, I want you also to maybe follow us on Twitter, on Instagram, on YouTube. Especially our YouTube channel. If you can go and subscribe to our YouTube channel, that really supports the show. All of the shows are actually put up on YouTube. Just, if you search for Lisa Tamati when you go to YouTube, you'll come up with my channel and make sure you subscribe. There's a ton of videos on there. We've got about 600, I think, including all my documentaries as well. Make sure you check that out and we'll head on over to the show with Trevor and Angie.  Hi, everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. This week, I have Trevor and Angie from the Marathon Training Academy. It's super exciting to have you guys. Welcome to the show.  Angie: Thanks so much, Lisa. It's great to be here.  Trevor: Yeah, we're excited about this.  Lisa: Yeah, well, I found you actually through a mutual friend, Dean Karnazes, who I know you've had on the show a couple of times. Dean's been a huge influence in my life as you can possibly imagine. I owe him so much both as a role model and as a friend. He's done lots of things for us. He's a wonderful guy, so shout out to Dean, who I think has just got out of lockdown in Australia. He was intending to run around Australia and that's been curtailed because of the bloody COVID thing. Yeah, shout out to Dean. Thanks for introducing us. I just loved your show so I thought, 'Well, I got to have you guys on.'  You guys are running coaches, and you have three kids. Let's start there. Tell us a little bit about your training academy, and what you do, and your podcast, and all that sort of good stuff. Trevor: Yeah, awesome. Well, thanks for the opportunity to be on the podcast here. I'll introduce myself. This is Trevor. I am America's most okay-est runner.  Angie: I thought you were gonna say laziest.  Trevor: Laziest? No.  Lisa: That's me.  Trevor: Angie is my better half. She's actually the running coach. I'm more like the business guy behind the scenes. We started in 2010. We launched the Marathon Training Academy podcast because we figured, 'Hey, maybe Angie had some knowledge and experience running a couple marathons, maybe people would benefit from learning how to do it.' We launched it and have been pretty much releasing content consistently for the last 11 years. It is not easy, as you know.  Lisa: No it is not. It is so, so impressive to keep going for that long. We've been going five and a half years, and I thought I was ancient and the podcast basically. So amazing. You've got a huge following and a huge... You're telling me some of your download stats and I'm like, 'I'm embarrassed.' You guys are rock stars.  Trevor: I guess we've been fortunate in the beginning when we've launched. I don't think there was a lot of competition for what we were talking about there. At least in the US, on iTunes, there was podcasts where people would carry a recorder out when they ran and they would just dictate breathing really heavy into the mic and stuff. There wasn't a whole lot of prescriptive training advice, which is what we tried to do. When we tell stories and we do race recaps and take people with us as we go racing around the country. But we try to be prescriptive: sharing lots of tips and strategies and principles.  Angie's also a registered nurse as well as being a running coach, so that appealed to people. It just took off in the beginning. We got lucky. I guess it was dumb luck. I don't know, but we started connecting with people right away. Folks would email us from all over the world. We just had a great audience ever since. I just checked the numbers today. Our show's been downloaded 10.8 million times since we started.  Lisa: That is insane. I got a long way to go to catch up to you guys. You guys are rock stars. Angie, you are a legend in the running space. You've already done 50 marathons in 50 states, for one thing. Tell us a bit about your career.  Angie: Well, I definitely don't feel like a legend. I guess that's when you are the person who is doing it all you always kind of feel like, 'Wow.' I kind of feel there's still so much that could be accomplished. There's always that comparison trap we can fit ourselves into. There's always someone who can run faster unless you're Eliud Kipchoge. There's always somebody who's done more crazy challenges. I think that's a dangerous field to start comparing yourself to other people, but I will say that I started running off and on when I was a teenager. I didn't have a great motivation. It was more about trying to lose weight. When I didn't see instant results, then I would kind of give it up and be like, 'Oh, this isn't working.'  But I do feel I really finally became a runner in my late 20s. We'd moved across the country. It was a move that I really didn't want to make. It was for work, and I had two little kids at home. I just felt I was stuck, and I needed a new challenge. Kind of on a whim, I signed up for a 5k race and they say the 5k is the gateway drug to long-distance running. In my case, it was. It was a completely miserable race. It was hot and humid and I'm not a good hot weather runner, but I felt there was a spark inside me. This is something that really fired me up. It wasn't about beating other people. In fact, I had a very, very average time but I just kind of felt like, 'Wow, I bet you I can get better at this.'  I'd never considered myself an athlete before. I never played any sports, so running was something, it was just kind of me against me. I decided I need a bigger challenge, so I signed up for my first marathon. At the time, I didn't have any friends who are runners. They probably would have advised me against it, actually. I don't know anyone who had ever done a marathon before. In fact, at the time, we were so poor that I could either afford the race registration or a new pair of shoes. My mom actually paid for my race registration, so I consider her my first official sponsor.  I'm training for this marathon on my own. Long story short, I do everything wrong. I just run. I don't do any kind of recovery or cross-training or strength training. I'm getting injured, dealing with back pain, and IT band pain, and all the things, but I was stubborn enough that I kept going and was able to finish the marathon. Although it felt completely gruelling at times, just when I crossed the finish line, it really... I was like, 'Wow, I know I'm going to do this again.' That kind of just started my journey. I actually, after that first marathon, had to take three months off of running because my IT band was so bad. Had knee pain. The whole nine yards.  That's when I started doing yoga and kind of discovered like, 'Wow, I can really start to learn more about my body, not ignore these signals that it's sending me.' There are some areas that need to be strengthened and I think that kind of sowed the seeds for what became Marathon Training Academy. Because I wanted to help people have a better experience than I did the first time: have the knowledge, have the information to not get injured and not have to do things the hard way.  I went on to run my second marathon training much smarter and was able to break four hours for the first time, which was a huge goal of mine. I think that's kind of when Trevor mentioned wanting to start a podcast about marathon training. I was like, 'I don't feel like I know enough. Who's going to listen to us? We're just sitting in our living room recording this thing.' I had very low aspirations for where it was going to go, but he had the vision. We stuck with it and just have had a very wonderful, gracious audience. We've just been able to meet so many amazing people throughout the years. I think that's been the most rewarding part of it.  Lisa: That's amazing. Trevor, your wife's bit of a superstar, from what it sounds, but she's very humble.  Trevor: She's amazing. She puts me to shame. She does everything that you're supposed to do, that your coach tells you, that you see on your training plan, doesn't miss a day, doesn't miss a workout. I do 25% of my training plan. Lisa: That's brilliant though. But I love the fact that you... Like me, when I started running, I had no idea what the hell I was doing. I just put one foot in front of the other. I was hopeless, and I was slow. I'm still slow 25 years later. Genetically speaking, not the most gifted person in the world but very, very stubborn. That's all you need with running. I love that you are all about the everyday runner. We have a running coaching arm of our company as well,  and we are very much into that holistic approach to running too, with the strengths, and the immobility, and the mindset, and the nutrition, and all of that sort of stuff.  I had no idea about that back in the day and I just bumbled along, running long because that's what you did, isn't it? If you're going to run long, you run long. What the hell is strength training? What do I need that for? I think we know we've both bumbled into the space and this is the key thing, I think, from your story. That when you just keep going, and keep going, and keep going, you suddenly find yourself looking back on, 'Holy heck, I've done a lot. I've done some pretty amazing things.'  It's just like running is putting one step in front of the other and then being open to learning, getting good coaching so that you... because I like what you said, Angie, about making mistakes and then not wanting other people to make them. That is just the motivation for what we do too because I reinvented the entire wheel, and you don't need to. Do you find a lot of runners come and they don't think they need a coach for starters? Most people only come to you when they're injured. Is that happens to you guys as well?  Angie: Yeah, I think often, there is part of human nature, and I think certain personality types who are more driven to like, 'I'm going to do this myself and I'm stubborn. I'm going to see this through.' Yeah, maybe they've tried a few times to hit a specific time goal that they have, and they realise, 'Wow, it's not going in the direction that I thought it should be going or the injury issues.'  I think people's knowledge and information, it's better now. There's so much more out there that a lot of people who are probably smarter than I was are like, 'Hey, I can probably cut out the injury part, and I can get good advice and good help in the beginning and make this so much a better journey.' I think also for me, I went alone for the first few years. Just being part of the community makes it so much more special, and I think the running community is just amazing. You meet the best people and have conversations with people like you. I think doing things in community makes it so much richer.  Lisa: Oh, man. I could learn so much from you guys. I think you've got a really good approach to it. Trevor, looking back into podcast space, because you say you're the businessman behind the amazing lady, got any tips for a podcaster? Because obviously you guys are doing something right. You started off in this space like... You've grown this massively. I know what goes into it. When you come to it a bit later, it's been a bit harder, for sure. What have you learned on that journey from a community-building point of view? Because I feel we've still got work to do in that space, and I'm always keen to learn from people who are so successful.  Trevor: Well, one thing, when Angie was talking and she was telling the story of when I pitched the podcast idea to her, one thing she didn't tell you was her first response was, because this was 2010, actually '09 when I pitched the idea. Her first response was, 'What's a podcast?'  Angie: Totally ignorant.  Lisa: Yeah, we still get people not knowing what the hell a podcast is.  Trevor: Yeah, so I think getting in early, obviously, was a big help to us. Kind of to be on the front end of a trend. We actually started in what was called the second wave of podcasting. Podcasting got going in earnest around '06, so they say that was the first wave. And then around 2010 was the second wave. There's a lot more shows starting and now, we might be in the fourth wave of podcasting now where almost every major company has a podcast, every news agency and every late-night TV show host.  It's definitely a more crowded space. But on the other hand, there are still people, like you said, who'd never heard of a podcast. More and more people are coming to the medium, downloading shows. Podcasts is becoming more mainstream. I know here, at least in the US, it's not unusual to hear people on TV talking about podcasts, just in anywhere you look, you can see subscribe to my podcast. It's cool to see the cultural awareness rise since we've started.  But I think in terms of tips on growing the show and community, one thing that helped us in the beginning, and still helps us, is hearing from listeners, featuring their stories. At the top of our show, every episode, we do shout outs where kind of like a virtual high five. People are, like all of us, people like to hear their name in a podcast. It just makes them feel... Yeah, lights them up. It puts a smile on their face, and we try to do that a lot where we engage the audience that way. Then, the off-podcast stuff too is also important like our social media stuff and all that. Yeah, building community. Angie: We also kind of try to keep in top of mind like, 'What's in it for the listener?' Because at the end of the day, people only have so much brain space and time. They're going to keep listening to shows that they feel you're giving them good value and that they connect to you in some way. I think just keeping that listener focus and stuff. No one wants to hear about a dissertation of what we've been doing for the last week in-depth. They want to get to know us a little bit, but they also want to know that we care about their needs and everything and what's top of mind. I think that's been helpful as well.  Trevor: Yeah, I edit our show judiciously. Oh, yeah. I spend way too much time. I'm just a perfectionist with it. I haven't been able to outsource that yet, so I edit our show and I'm like, I don't know what the word is, I'm just a stickler when it comes to audio quality. Also like Angie said, I know people's time is important, so if we go down a certain path in the conversation that I think is not pertinent enough, I'll just cut it. I'll take that one-hour episode then maybe sometimes cut it down to 40 minutes.  Angie: He has to edit out all my ‘likes' and ‘you knows', all my verbal clutter. It takes about half of the content away. Lisa: It's so much work. It's just so much work but I love that you do that, and you're a perfectionist. I'm technically completely disabled. I have a team of people behind me doing a lot of stuff, but we can still improve and get better. I love the meandering type of conversations that we have. Let's go and talk a little bit about... For start, Angie, I do have to ask you about your 50 marathons in 50 states, like our friend Dean. How did that come about and when did this become a challenge?  Angie: Well, sometimes things just kind of sneak up on you. I think it was my fourth marathon and it was before the race. I was sitting around talking to a couple ladies and they had these shirts on that said: 'Marathon Maniacs.' I was like, 'What do those shirts mean? What's a marathon maniac?' They're like, 'Oh, it's a club where you have to run a certain number of marathons to be able to get in.' I was like, 'Oh, how many?' They said, 'Well, you have to do two in two weeks or three in ninety days.' I was like, 'What?' That's crazy. That's a maniac.' I was like, 'I could never do that.' I said that I could never do that, and they're like, 'Oh, you could if you really wanted to.'  That just kind of stuck with me. I was like, a lot of times we make excuses why we can't do something, and sometimes, it seems very valid at the moment. But it's all a matter of priorities. That stuck with me. I'm like, 'Could I do that?' Later that fall, I did end up doing three marathons in that 90-day space, and I became a marathon maniac. When you surround yourself with people who are doing all these big challenges... I would joke that I was like a baby maniac because there was people who had done three, four, five hundred marathons in the club that you would see at these races.  Then, of course, I heard about the 50 state club. People who run a marathon in each of the 50 states. I thought, 'Wow, that would be cool. I already have a few states under my belt. Why not?' It doesn't have to be anything like Dean Karnazes doing it in 50 days. No one cares how long it takes and everything. Both Trevor and I love to travel. It seemed like a really great way to be able to explore our very diverse country and see all these amazing places, get to run. It just kind of started that way, and it took me 12 years to finish all 50 states. But it's about the journey and not the destination.  Lisa: Absolutely and that is a really... It rolls off the tongue really beautifully. Yeah. I've done a marathon in every state, 50 states.  Trevor: Here's what's cool, Lisa. I don't know if Angie is going to tell you this but she actually ran her last marathon fastest. That was her fastest marathon. That's what's so cool about our sport: that even though you get older, you can still improve in so many ways. Her very 50th state was in Hawaii. She ran 319, qualified for Boston by 20 minutes and that was at age 41. She was 10 years older but ran an hour faster than when she started.  Lisa: I love it. Go, the oldie. I'm way older than you, so I can say that. I totally agree. Endurance is one of those things. I read a statistic once said a 19-year-old and a 64-year-old are on the same level of endurance or something. You peak around 48 as far as endurance goes and I'm like, 'Yeah, amen to that.' I have similar stories. I did my best performances in my 42, 43, around that age were my peak performances. I'm way after that now, so things have slid off a little bit. Of course, it's what's going on in your life. I've had a few other dramas in my life. There's reasons for things slipping off, but I love that. 319 is an incredible time. That's just amazing. Angie: I still can't believe I did that. Was that me? I don't know. It was just one of those days where everything comes together, and you can never predict that.  Trevor: In Hawaii to boot.  Lisa: Yeah, isn't it really hot in Hawaii? Isn't that really difficult to do?  Angie: It was January so it was cooler, but it was hot compared to what I was used to. Lisa: Amazing. Trevor, how many did you do of those states? You did a few of them?  Trevor: I have. I think I'm up to 17 marathons. I'm actually doing my 18th in about 10 days from now.  Angie: But he's done a lot of half marathons. A lot of the time where I'd be doing a marathon, he would do the half marathon so he's probably run in most of those states as well.  Lisa: I study genetics, right? We have a epigenetics and functional genomics arm to our business. Everybody is genetically different. When people listen to you and go, 'My god. She's amazing. She's run 50 marathons in 50 states.' I want people to not take away from that that they should be doing back-to-back marathons because even though yeah, that's really cool to have these challenges, we're not all genetically set up for that. We need to respect that sometimes. It's been fascinating, this journey of learning about genetics.  When I did my genetics, it came back... Actually, I'm really not suited to the super long-distance running. I was like, 'What? Is that why I've got all these health problems?' Actually, my body is more set up... That doesn't mean I can't ever do an ultramarathon again, but it does mean if that if I want to have longevity and health for a long time which I do now, because I'm 50 so I want to make sure that I stay on top of things, then I shouldn't be doing back to back ultras.  That my body is much more suited to doing shorter and high-intensity sort of workouts and lots of yoga and Pilates and things as well.  I just want people to take away from there, everybody is different. For some people like my husband, he can run super super long, and it's genetically good for him to do that. For me, not so much. One of the other things that I've found within our running coaching, and we get a lot of ladies, we're probably about 70% ladies in our run coaching community. A lot of them are in their 30s, 40s, 50s. It's not the best weight loss thing, is it?  Angie: I could gain weight while running marathons and even watching what I'm eating so yeah, it is definitely. It's tricky.  Lisa: Yeah, it's not. For people to understand, if you're wanting to do a weight loss program, that would be a completely different program that I'd set you than if you're wanting to do marathons for the challenge of doing a marathon. Because there is this misconception that yeah, 'I run a marathon and I get really thin and slim.' No. I got fatter doing marathons. When I ran through New Zealand, I put on weight, and I was running 70-odd kilometres a day. Then, I put on my... I'm like, 'The hell is this about?' Everybody is different. Respect your genes. Respect your body. And as Angie said at the beginning of this podcast, compare yourself only to yourself. Unless you're in the Olympics, then, you probably compare yourself to the others. But for most of us, it is about you versus you. I think that's the beautiful thing about this sport. That we can all do this together but it's actually each of our journeys.  Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody, and we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's patron.lisatamati.com. We have two patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as 7 dollars a month, New Zealand, or 15 dollars a month if you really want to support us. We are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us: everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries, and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com. And thanks very much for joining us.  Lisa: Trevor, what was your favourite race that you've done?  Trevor: Oh, thanks for asking. There's this marathon I love to talk about. You've probably heard of it. It's the Jungfrau Marathon in Switzerland. That's such a beautiful place. It's almost unreal. Otherworldly how beautiful it is.  Angie: Probably like New Zealand actually. Really beautiful.  Trevor: I've heard it's nice there too. Well, I haven't been in New Zealand yet, unfortunately. As of right now, Switzerland is my favourite place that I've run. They say that when, for those Lord of the Rings nerds who might be listening, when Tolkien, after World War I, was marching through the Lauterbrunnen Valley in Lauterbrunnen, Switzerland. He sees this amazing place and that was the inspiration for Rivendale in the book, in the movies.  Lisa: They did it there first. Trevor: Yep, exactly. Lisa: Then, we came to New Zealand to film it ‘cause it was even better.  Trevor: What's cool about that marathon is it's just pretty much all up this mountain until you get to this 7,000 feet elevation. It's pretty much a lot of power hiking. Yeah, exactly. It's pretty much a thousand... It's pretty much a lot of power hiking after the second half, which is fine because I felt like I was still making progress. But people were throwing up on the side of the trail, and I was fine because I was just I'm just power hiking. I was kind of used to it. That's been my favourite marathon thus far. Plus I had the Alps horns, Swiss Alps horns and stuff. Very transcendent.  Lisa: It was so special. I lived in Austria for 13 years and would go over to Switzerland regularly. Austria and Switzerland are very similar. And just absolutely beautiful. I really miss the beauty of the place, and the culture, and the traditions, and the cool boating. All of those sorts of things. Yeah, it's pretty special. What about you Angie? What's your favourite race?  Angie: I don't know. It's hard to hard to pick one. I would say my favourite international race was the Loch Ness marathon in Scotland. Just going around Loch Ness the lake and just incredibly beautiful. Just the chance to be able to be there and be in the country and see so many amazing things. But I don't know. There's a lot of races that I love here in the US as well. Boston is a very iconic special race. The Marine Corps marathon is really moving. Yeah, Washington, DC. Then, my home state is Montana. I've gotten to do a couple marathons there. Of course, I'm a little biased, but I love the mountains there. Lisa: Absolutely. For both of you, what was your toughest race? Have you ever not made the finish line?  Trevor: Thankfully, no.  Angie: Actually that one race that they closed the finish line. Trevor: Oh, yeah. I remember the marathon in... That was an Austria fact in 2019. They had to shut the course down because of the weather. I think that for me, the toughest race was 50k in Montana. I was probably undertrained because I'm so lazy, and I ended up taking lots of breaks. Angie: Like laying on the ground. Trevor: But I finished before the cut off and I wasn't dead last. Lisa: You take whatever you can get when you go to the bottom of the barrel. That's not much... If you get across the finish line... Trevor: Exactly. It was on the Continental Divide Trail so there's a lot of elevation. How about you, Angie? Angie: There have been a lot of marathons where I finished feeling, or even ultras, that was dragging a body part behind me but I was too stubborn to quit kind of thing. But I think, probably the most difficult one was the Leadville Trail Marathon in Leadville, Colorado because it starts at 10,000 feet and it just goes up from there. There was a section, a one-mile section to get up to Hope Pass, which was the highest point, and it took me 30 minutes to go a mile. I would just walk a few feet, just breathe, gasp for air, pretend like you're taking a picture because you're embarrassed at your pace. That was very challenging because I was not... We were living in sea level basically. To go and do that not being acclimated, it was challenging. Then, to look to the side of the trail and like, 'If I make a misstep, I'm going to fall off this mountain and die.' One of those where I finished and I was just like, 'So thankful to be alive.'  Lisa: Sounds pretty damn scary. What do you think are the biggest learnings from all of these races in this journey that you've been on for however long you've been running for? What what are some of the biggest takeaways? Do you think this crosses over into daily life, and to your businesses, and to the work you do, and stuff like that, and challenges in your home life, and stuff?  Angie: Yeah, I would say the marathon and any long-distance running is a great metaphor for life because you have to look at the long picture. Like you were saying earlier, we're always changing and evolving as people, and we have to keep that in mind. I've kind of through the years, through some trial and error, my goal is to be a strong healthy runner for life. Being healthy through that lifespan is way more important than any one race for me. I think that it's very important like we see people who are taking on these challenges.  It is important to have goals and everything but I think it's also important to just look at your overall health. Is your sleep, is your nutrition, is your overall strength, are your relationships good? How is your mental, and your emotional, your spiritual life? All those things go hand in hand. I think that at some point, running accomplishments are only going to be so satisfying if those other things aren't in place. That's been a big thing for me. I tend to be really goal-oriented person. Always looking to the future like, 'When this happens, I'm going to be happy and be satisfied.'  I finally came to the realisation that if I can't be happy right now, in the imperfect, the way life is if I can't be happy now, that I'm not going to be happy in the future. If I accomplish these goals, there's always going to be something else to chase. That's been something that I've been thinking about lately of just how to really appreciate the present. I think that really goes into running or whatever people's goals are because there's going to be a lot of the present that is challenging and that we don't want to go through. I think it's important to do hard things, take on hard challenges. But there's going to be a lot of hard things that find us that we don't want to have to deal with, that we're going to be forced to wrestle with. I think that having that long-term goal and having done hard things in the past prepares you for those challenges that you never wanted to take on in the first place.  Lisa: Yeah, when you've been struggling, going back to the genetics, you probably got a dopamine thing where you have to be chasing dopamine all the time. I know I've got that gene called the DRD2 gene where I don't have a heck of a lot of receptors for dopamine, so I'm always chasing a mission. Just coming to understand that about yourself, it's like, 'Aha. That's why I tend to...' Like my brother said to me once, 'Why are you always on a mission? Why can't you just sit on a beach and enjoy the day?' ‘It's like asking a table not to be flat. That's who I am. I get up and I'm missioning all day, every day.' And I'm like you, Angie. I'm trying to change the talk in my head to being present.  Sometimes, when you are going through challenges and life keeps chucking them at us at the moment, you don't want to be in the now. One of the big things that I really miss because I'm not doing ultras anymore, is having that single focus, one goal. Life was purely about being a selfish athlete who's just got on a mission. I don't have the luxury of that now with things in life. I miss it. I miss it terribly. That simplicity of life where you've got just one big huge goal and you're doing your work and stuff. But this is the one thing, and then when you're actually in the race, that's what I found beautiful about racing, you're not thinking about the mortgage and the what's going on in the family or anything else because you're just like, [imitates heavy breathing], ‘Got to get up this hill.'  Angie: To the next aid station.  Lisa: Right in the moment. For so much of my life, I know that I'm in the future or the past and that's really learning to be in the now without having that single singular focus. Really wise words, Angie, I think. Trevor, what would you say that running has bought to your mental resilience and toughness and ability to cope with things?  Trevor: Well, I know running marathons makes a lot of other stuff seem easier. Yeah. I remember how tough my first half marathon was, and I thought I was going to die because I was pretty much a non-runner previous to meeting Angie. After I did my first full marathon, then a half seemed a walk in the park. It seemed so easy even though they're still challenging, especially if you're trying to race a half marathon. We've had Joe de Sena on our podcast a couple of times. He's the founder of the Spartan Race. Lisa: Yeah, I've been on his show. Awesome.  Trevor: Oh, Cool. Yeah. He's a scary guy. I always remember something he talks about in his book, Spartan Up and that's obstacle immunity. When you make yourself do hard things, you become immune to obstacles in life. You can just push through them, hurdle over them. But it's when you're playing it safe, when you're afraid to get out of your comfort zone, sign up for that challenge, that marathon, or whatever your challenges is, it's this when you get more timid and hard things seem harder than they really are. It's all in our heads.  Lisa: Ah, that's gold. Obstacle immunity. That's going on my Instagram today. Thanks, Joe. Because it is. When somebody or when someone tells you can't do something, that's just for me like, 'Oh, we'll see. I don't agree with you. We'll find out.' That's really served me well. The more that you realise when people tell you can't do something, and then you go and do it, that's just other people's limiting beliefs. This is an all areas, certainly in the medical space and with story with my mum that my listeners know about. If I'd listened to everybody telling me I can't do something, we would never be where we are now. I think you have this mentality. You have, 'Oh, obstacle? How do I get around that? What else can I do?' Rather than, 'Oh, obstacle. I have to stop and sit down and cry and that's it.' I think that mentality is brilliant. Obstacle immunity. Hear, hear. I love it. Angie: It doesn't mean that you don't feel those hard feelings as you get over the obstacle. I think it's important to acknowledge that it's hard and take time to feel that frustration or that sadness or that disappointment. But I think also acknowledging those emotions helps you get over the obstacle too because you're not fighting your emotions then. You're using those and using that to fuel your fire or to just do what needs to be done. Lisa: What I think is beautiful too is when you look back and you've overcome challenges that makes you stronger for the next challenge. You lift your horizon up every time. You get to the end of your first half marathon. For five minutes, you go, 'I never ever want to do that again because that hurts so much.' Then the next day, you're on the internet, 'What is the next one? Where's the next challenge?' You can see runners do this over and over again. I just laugh now when they say 'I'm never doing that again.' Because it's usually until the pain wears off and they're off on the next mission.  It is like lifting your horizon every time. It's not something that stays out there permanently either, by the way. You build yourself up to marathon, ultramarathon, whatever your goal is. Then if you don't do it for a while, I can tell you as someone who's not doing ultras now, your world starts to shrink back in as to what you are capable of doing. For me, I'm thinking, 'Can I do a half marathon?' That's what I would like at the moment with a load that I've got on, which is a lot, 'Can I get back to that stage?' My focus has been on CrossFit and other things.  My body's changed considerably, for the better I'd say, but when it comes to going back long, whoa. I've got to push that horizon back out again. It doesn't stay permanent. In other words, it's a constant work battle really to keep it. When you're getting older, you've also got that aspect coming into it too, trying to keep things at bay. I had Dean on the podcast last week and we were talking about that because we're both somewhat north of 40. It's like, 'Yeah, things aren't quite working like they used to do. I'm like, 'Yeah, I'm working on that. I've got all these things for you, Dean.' 'Some great longevity stuff. Come try this and do that.'  That's sort of an interesting path to go down to because you start to think, 'Well, I can keep my fitness to the best that I can by keeping up with the current research, and the knowledge, and stuff, and doing the best things, and prioritising things like sleep.' You can have a massive impact on your body, and it's not just about the training I think is what I'm... Yeah. Guys, you've also got three kids. Three kids, busy life, running marathons. Most people can't, I can't do that. How do you find the time?  Angie: Well, we are very fortunate that now we are self-employed. We kind of can design our own schedules, and I think that's a big advantage to the training because some days, it happens at a certain time. Some days, it has to be pushed around a bit because of appointments, kids, things that we've got going on and everything. We've also tried to include our kids in the journey. Especially when they were young, they would travel with us a lot and they got to go to so many of the states that we travelled to. We tried to expand their horizons as well.  Now that they're older and everything, sometimes, he travels, he's going to Italy next week. I'll stay home with the kids, and then I'll go somewhere in September. It's just about making it work and making sure the family is supportive. It's not like your family has to be your biggest fans because there's only a certain level that your family is going to get it. Like our kids could pretty much care less that we do marathons. They're like, 'So what?'  Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know. I hear you.  Angie: 'What are you making for dinner, Mom? I don't care that you just ran a race.' You know that kind of thing? Lisa: They're very good at bringing you back down to earth, family. I've got brothers and yeah. 'You ran across the Sahara? Oh, yeah. Whatever.' 'Oh, you wrote a book? Oh, that's cool. I'll never read it.'  Angie: 'What's it about?' 'Okay.'  Trevor: That's cruel.  Lisa: But that's family, that keeps you keeps you grounded. 'Oh, would've been nice to get a pat on the back.' They're not like that at all. Very supportive actually, but when we were younger, that was definitely the case. Probably vice versa because my brother does surfing and I'm always like, 'Oh, yeah, are you just riding 20-foot waves? That's cool.' Now, I'm sort of like, 'Oh, Wow. That's pretty awesome. Go guys.'  You guys have been epic today. Thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate it. I thank your podcast. And tell everybody where they can find you: Where's the best home to find you on the internet and Instagram and all those sort of good places and how to connect? Trevor: No problem. Yeah, thank you so much for the opportunity to be on the podcast, and if anybody wants to find this, you can just go to marathontrainingacademy.com. If you are looking for our podcast, if you just type in marathon training, we usually just come up as the first result, but it's called The Marathon Training Academy podcast. We're on Instagram, @MarathonAcademy.  Lisa: Wonderful. I will put all those in the show notes. Thank you very much guys for your time today. It's been absolutely wonderful chatting with you.  Angie: Thank you so much. Trevor: Likewise. Thank you.  That's it this week for Pushing the Limits. Be sure to rate, review, and share with your friends, and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com   

In our fast-paced world, everyone feels pressured to be the best and to do their best. It's easy to succumb to worry and anxiety during this time. This week, a superstar athlete encourages us to reframe pressure as an opportunity. You may not be involved in the sports world, but you can still learn from it. For our guest, overcoming high-pressure situations boils down to two things: trusting in the preparation you've done and taking things one step at a time.  Retired All Blacks player Conrad Smith joins us in this episode to talk about his experiences in the sporting world. He gives us a glimpse into his childhood and how he transitioned in and out of professional rugby. It's easy to make sports your whole identity if you're not careful, and Conrad details how athletes can avoid this trap. He also shares how we can equip ourselves to handle high-pressure situations. If you want to hear about Conrad's tales with the All Blacks and know how to be better at dealing with being pressured, this episode is for you.    Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Gain insights on the dangers of being too immersed in a sports bubble.  Learn how you can deal with feeling pressured. Understand the importance of adaptability in our fast-changing world. Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  A new program, BOOSTCAMP, is coming this September at Peak Wellness! 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Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Episode Highlights [02:59] Conrad's Childhood Conrad's family used to move around until they settled at New Plymouth when he was six. His family was very close, as his parents always made time for him and his siblings.  They were also supportive of both his academics and sports. Conrad spent most of his childhood playing sports and helping out on their family farm.  [09:03] Conrad as a Young Sportsman  Conrad wasn't initially an overachiever when it comes to sports.  During his time at school, rugby didn't take up a huge portion of his life. Conrad didn't feel pressured to play, unlike most kids involved in sports today.  He's very grateful that he was able to finish his law degree before he started playing professionally.  [11:44] The Dangers of the Sports System Nowadays, there's an obsession with finding talent and training them hard from a young age.  The rationale behind this is to give these kids the best chances of success. However, Conrad is sceptical about this approach. He believes that balancing life and sports is crucial, especially because sports is a short-term career. Many athletes end up going bankrupt or developing depression because they don't have a life outside of playing sports. [16:26] Staying Grounded When you're in a sports bubble, it's easy to lose touch with reality. If you're handling a high-paying sports career, you can forget how real people live. Athletes need to stay grounded and not tie their identity with their sports. This way, they can land on their feet after the bubble bursts.  The challenge is to find other things that you enjoy and avoid the trap of coaching after your playing career ends.  [29:39] On Career Transitions With the rapid changes in the world, we need to adapt to stay relevant.  It takes courage to change your career.  However, you can always find support when you open up to the people around you.   [33:06] Mental Health in Sports  All athletes feel pressured with their sports—what's important is how they deal with it.  When you look at being pressured differently, you can see it as an opportunity.   There's no quick fix for handling high-pressure situations. It's essential to find what works for you. [36:38] How to Deal with Feeling Pressured  Preparation is critical to help overcome feeling pressured.  If you have done the prep work, all that's left for you to do is execute.  Don't get overwhelmed by the bigger picture. Instead, focus on the minute details. You need to be at the top of your game if you're playing in the Rugby World Cup. Listen to the full episode to hear how Conrad overcomes being pressured! [45:21] Conrad's Experiences with the All Blacks Conrad was playing for the Wellingtons when he was picked to play for the All Blacks. His fellow players and coaches told him not to feel pressured and encouraged him to have fun.  For Conrad, being an All Black never lost its glow. He acknowledges what the team means for the country.  He believes that the All Blacks continues to perform well because the players uphold the team's legacy. In particular, their jersey means so much to Conrad. Find out why when you tune in to the full episode!  [52:51] The Future of Rugby Now working as a lawyer in the player association, Conrad speculates that women's rugby will see tremendous growth in the coming years.  The women's rugby players are more motivated by the sport. They want to reach more women and girls through it.  Since this women's rugby is still a relatively small industry, there's not much effort to commercialise yet.  This can be an advantage. It's similar to how small but nimble companies can overtake big industries. [59:56] Conrad's Advice to Parents and Children It is much more harmful to shelter your children from sports. As you get serious about sports, remember to stay grounded and balanced. Connect with the real world as much as you can.  Lastly, be open to opportunities and changes.    7 Powerful Quotes ‘I think it's fine to keep a balance, and to play other sports, and to experience, just live a normal life. I think you can still excel.' ‘You have a crazy number of bankruptcy, crazy number of rates of depression because they haven't learned to live outside of their sport.' ‘You have a lot of retired players that feel like they have to coach because they think it's all they know. The challenge, I suppose is, then of being careful not to fall into that trap.' ‘Whatever you decide that you want to be, you can become.' ‘The bigger the moments and the bigger the pressure, it's the funny thing, it's the more important that you focus on the smaller, minute detail.' ‘If you break it down into one more step, just one more, and then you just keep going and keep going. Then, invariably, that mindset or that thing that's in your head passes and then you're back in the game.' ‘If it's a conversation you're just having in your own mind, you will never get anywhere. You just need to open up about it.'   About Conrad Conrad Smith was a long-time player of New Zealand's All Blacks and helped lead the team to the 2011 and 2015 Rugby World Cups. He is widely known as “The Snake” for his ability to slip through tackles. At 38, he captained the Wellington-based Hurricanes in the Southern Hemisphere's Rugby league, then retired after the 2015 World Cup.  He now serves as legal counsel and project manager for International Rugby Players, the global representative body for the sport. He is also the high-performance manager for Pau, a French club that competes in the Top 14, the highest in the country's domestic league.  Find out more about Conrad and his work at International Rugby Players.    Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends, so they can learn what to do when they feel pressured.  Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa     Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential, with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.  Lisa Tamati: Lisa Tamati speaking. Welcome back to Pushing the Limits. This week, I have Conrad Smith, the famous, famous All Black, who many of you Kiwis at least will know, a superstar athlete. And we share information about his career, and what it's like to be in the World Cup, and lots of exciting stuff. Also, what it's like to be post-career now, retiring, some of the issues that he sees around young athletes. Really lovely and interesting conversation with the amazing Conrad Smith who's also a lawyer as well as an All Black. Talk about an overachiever.  Before we get on to the show, just want to remind you, we have our epigenetics flagship program that we're running constantly. So if anybody wants to find out what the genes are all about, and how to optimise your food, your exercise, your lifestyle, your chronobiology, your mood and behaviour, all these things to your specific genes, and get the blueprint and the user manual for your body, then please come and check out what we do. Head on over to lisatamati.com, hit the ‘Work with Us' button, and then you'll see our Peak Epigenetics program. That will take you over to our site where you can find out all about that. Or you can always reach out to me, and I can send you a little bit of a video, and maybe jump on a call to explain how it all works. It's a really powerful and awesome program. We've taken hundreds and hundreds of people through this program, and it's really been life-changing for so many, including myself and my family. So if you're wanting to find out about that, just head on over to lisatamati.com and hit the work with us button.  Also, just wanted to let you know that I do a lot of motivational speaking, corporate speaking. I would love if anyone knows, or organising a conference, or team workshop, or anything like that, please reach out to me: lisa@lisatamati.com if you're interested in finding out about my speaking programs. Also, we do corporate wellness programs on that front as well. How can you upgrade your life and be the best version of you can be at work and at home? That's what we're all about. So thanks for that letting me do that little plug.  Now, we're going to be going over to Conrad Smith who's just been moved back to New Plymouth. I've had the privilege of meeting him a number of times and working on a couple of things. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. Now, over to Conrad.  Well, hi everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits this week with Lisa Tamati. I am really excited for today's conversation. I've teamed up with another amazing superstar, a top athlete for you guys to enjoy learning from today. I have Conrad Smith. Conrad, welcome to the show.  Conrad Smith: Thank you, Lisa. Thank you for the introduction.  Lisa: You hardly need an introduction especially to people living in New Zealand. A legendary All Black. You played for how many years? I think it's 2004? Conrad: 15 years. Lisa: 15 as an All Black, as a winger. You've been a captain of the Hurricanes. You've been, I don't know, Player of the Year and Sportsman of the Year in Wellington. Your accolades are such a huge list, Conrad. You're blushing already, I can see. But really, an incredible athletic career and you were also talented as a cricketer, I understand. Conrad: When I was a little fella, when I was little fella. I was too little for rugby so I played more cricket, but yeah.  Lisa: And then you grew. Conrad: I was a New Zealander. New Zealand kid back then. Yeah, then I grew up. That's right.  Lisa: Yeah. Then you grew up and you were big enough to take on the big boys. Say, Conrad, give us a little bit of a feel like where you grew up. And how much of an influence did your childhood have on what you ended up doing with your rugby career? Conrad: Yeah. So I was actually born down Hawera. My father was a policeman so we moved around with him a little bit in the early years, and then moved to New Plymouth when I was about six. We're a very, very close family. He gave a lot of time. My mom and dad would always make time for the kids: a couple older brothers, younger sister. Yeah, it was a great childhood. A lot of sport was played but we all did pretty well academically, which my parents laughed at because both of them never made it. They did poorly in school. Really, really supportive parents in terms of... It's funny, I probably took it for granted then, but I don't ever remember my parents either not being there or having to work.  Everything we did, we always were supported. And they were there, whether it was just drive us there, or coach our teams, or try and help us with our homework. I think that was what I've, like I said, took for granted but now, being older, I realise how important that was and why we're still such a close family, and my brothers are my best mates, and my sister is. We still meet. Yeah we still, obviously. We're all sort of have moved around the world but we're sort of pretty close together again. I suppose I try to be now with my own family like my dad was to me. Yeah, so those were the luckiest break in my head, I suppose. I always say people talk about luck, especially in sport but for me, it was just the family I was born into and the sport I had as a young fella.  Lisa: Yeah. Now, that's brilliant. And you had a couple of kids yourself?  Conrad: Yeah, yeah. Now, we've got two of them, just about to go off to school. Luca is my seven, and we had him in New Zealand, and then our daughter was actually born over in France while I was over there for four or five years. She's come back with us. Lisa: Growing up in the... You grew up in the 80s, I grew up in the 70s. Showing my age, yeah. But I think in the 80s, it was still very much like an outdoorsy lifestyle, like that good Kiwi kid upbringing, especially in Taranaki because we both come from here. Having that being outdoors in nature all day, as kids, we never came home before dark, sort of thing. Was it the same in your household?  Conrad: Yeah, for sure and like I say to all the brothers, they were pretty influential in what I did. I just sort of hung around, tail off them but very much, we were always out. I just think of my childhood, it was all about playing sport, finding areas to play sport. You'd sort of get pushed out, and as we try and play inside, then we'd get pushed out to the garden and we'd ruin the garden or ruin the lawn. We're just constantly finding places to do what guys do with a ball and you can do anything. Then, the wider family were farming so my dad was on the farm. He sort of got kicked off by his older brother, but that was a family farm.  So we would eat out that way and that's that Douglas from Stratford on the way there with my mom in there. That's been in the family for three or four generations and that would be where we're kids. We'd help with haymaking, we'd help with carving, we'd help all sorts. That was pretty much my favourite holiday, and the same as all of us kids would be to go spend some time there and help on the farm. That was just a childhood, yeah. You just know what friends to do and always outside, didn't matter if it was raining and cold as it often is at most parts. We just put a coat on and carry on.  Lisa: Oh, man that just takes me back to my childhood, and I often think, 'Man, I want to go back.' What happened to that simple life that we had when we were kids? You're very lucky to have such wonderful parents, obviously. It's such a cool family. You also went off into university and became a lawyer, as you do, as an All Black. A slight overachiever there, Conrad. Did you always want to be a lawyer apart from wanting to be an All Black?  Conrad: As I sort of said before, I wasn't a huge overachiever on the sport front. Well, I went to Francis Douglas; it's not a huge sporting school. We had sporting teams, but that wasn't very much. Part of it, you were there to study, you were there to get an education, and I enjoyed it. I enjoyed school. I think it is a great school, and a lot of my mates now are still from the mates I made in my school years, and yeah. So I didn't mind class and I never had a... I suppose leaving high school as it was when I was going to go to university, my brothers had both done that. That was sort of a thing to do.  Law was, yeah. It was something. I enjoyed English history. Those sort of subjects at school in Wellington wasn't too far. I sort of wanted to go down to meet my brothers down there and that was the scarfie life was. But he sort of talked me out of it just because he... I think he'd done about four years by that stage, and flying down, and getting himself back and forth was pretty tough. They sort of said, 'Well, if you have to, go closer to home.' and that was when I ended up in Wellington and I really enjoyed law and rugby.  Yeah like I say, sport was great, but it was two nights a week. It wasn't taking over my life as I know it does to a lot of kids nowadays. They make academies, and whatnot, and maybe talk about whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. But yeah, I was able to finish a full law degree and luckily, that sort of perfectly dovetailed into when I started playing professionally. Yeah, it was just sort of fortunate for me in terms of the way it all worked out and the timing. That's something I was very grateful for, obviously. Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Because right now, like your career, your playing career at least is over, you've got something to do. You've got a qualification. If we dive into that subject a little bit, so a lot of the young guys now are coming through and they're sort of getting picked out early along the way. What sort of dangers do you see with that system?  Conrad: Yeah, I do worry about it,  and I've spoken about it before. Because it's not just in rugby. It's in all sports. There's sort of a real obsession towards identifying talent young. Then the excuses, are you giving them the best chance of success? So we're gonna do all the work with them, and specialise them, and make them concentrate on the sport. But firstly, I don't know if that actually helps them with their sport a whole lot. I think it's fine to keep a balance, and to play other sports, and to experience, just live a normal life. I think you can still excel. But the other thing is that if it doesn't work out or even if it works out, sports are short term industry. You know, I know that that's not forever, and when you get to the back end of that, if you're purely invested in one sport when the time runs out, you got to rebuild a lot of the... Yeah and that's a real problem.  And you don't need to look far to find a lot of evidence about that. We've been afoot and looking at American sports because they've been professional a lot longer than we have. Some of the statistics is just shocking. And people would think that they paid so much money, the athletes in those sports in America that they should be able to live literally after... They could do whatever they want. Theoretically, they have enough money just to retire but the statistics are not that at all. You have a crazy number of bankruptcy, crazy number of rates of depression because they haven't learned to live outside of their sport. That's sort of been taken away from them because they're placed into their sport so young, and then just cut, and there's no real assistance around that.  So yeah, that's an extreme example and we're nowhere near at that stage here with the way the academies and that are set up. I know most of the people involved are very mindful of the things I've just talked about. Lisa: That's pretty...just open that conversation now. Conrad: Yeah. I just think there's a lot to be said around leading young people. I look at myself and from that period of development where maybe nowadays, I'd been in an academy, I was lead to play multiple... I played cricket, I played basketball, I ran, I did, God knows, all these things, and who's to say what lessons I learned from those other sports that I actually used in rugby? Because there's so much that you can pick up and also being able to study.  For me to have a degree, the benefits that gave me to deal with injuries, to deal with all the downsides of sport because I had a background and the education. It's really helpful. You relax a lot more. You get a perspective on the sorts of things that if you're just wrapped up in a sport and you get an injury, man that's tough. You can't do what you would like to do. Where do you turn? But I think if you've had a bit of an education, and it doesn't have to be a law degree, but if you've got some other life or other opportunities and options that you can turn to in those times, and it gives you perspective and a sense of reality, and you don't get so caught up in that, so yeah. I know it is appreciated. I just think it may be still underrated by a lot of the people that are setting up these academies and things for the young sportsmen.  Lisa: Yeah, and that's a good conversation to have and just be open about. Because you're one injury away from ending your career at any time. And then, to build... that's like building a sort of a house on a foundation of saying if you haven't got something else and you haven't got the life skills, if I just look at the opposite extreme with my sport where you have... When I started, just a bunch of weirdos doing crazy stuff, right? There's no structure, and there was no support. There was no knowledge, but it taught me that I had to go and market myself. I had to go and push everything that... Even when I represented New Zealand, I had to buy my own singlet to wear at the thing. Get a little... I'm getting here and do all of the things. So you had to market yourself, present yourself, become a speaker, do all of this sort of stuff in order to... So through that, you learn a lot of life skills anyway and then it was never a professional sport, in a sense. I managed to live off my sport for a number of years, but that was an exceptionally... That just because I found ways to do that but it wasn't a pathway that anybody could follow. But it taught me to fight. I remember having this conversation with my brother, Dawson, who I know was one of your heroes when you were a little feller. My brother, Dawson, was a Hurricanes player and Super Rugby in Taranaki and international as well. When I came back from Australia, and I came back to New Zealand, and I was raising money to go to Death Valley, which was a big race for me, he was like, 'Why are you in the media? Where you want to be? I used to hide from the damn media.' And I'm like, 'Yeah, but you got everything given to you, mate. You got all your clothes, all your gear, you got stuff gifted to you left, right, and centre. You've actually got no idea what another sport is.' That structure, that framework is not there. And that's good and it's bad.  When you have everything laid on for you, but you haven't had to fight in society for your things... Because I've talked to a lot of rugby clubs actually around the country to all the younger guys. Everything is laid out for them. They have to fight. They've got a lot of pressure as far as performance and all that sort of stuff goes, but the rest of life is sort of taken care of. So it's something to be wary of. I think you got young ones and going up through this system is to just think about, 'What is the fallback option here? What else are they going to do when their career is over?' Because it can be very short, and not everybody reaches the stardom that you did. Not everyone gets to play for the All Blacks' 94 games or... Conrad: We talked about the bubble. They use that term a lot within sports. So you come into this bubble. When you stay in that bubble, you lose touch with reality. You're actually... I know because I've seen it, and I'd use that same terminology and say, 'Come on and talk to the guys. I've got to get out of the bubble.' It was always a thing of because people would... And you'd see it with people that get drawn into a sporting career and if they're doing really well. And you're right. It's only in New Zealand that it's probably only really rugby. There are other sports now that get paid really well, but they have to head overseas so... You're thrown into a lifestyle where everything is laid on and you don't actually... You forget how the real people live and the real life is, and that the bubble bursts, and it all comes about, and this is what I'm saying: The more time you spend in that bubble, when it bursts, the harder it is. The fall can really take a lot of getting used to it and some people don't.  Unfortunately, even the guys I have played with, I've got as many stories of guys who are struggling, still struggling as the guys who fell on their feet. I don't think anyone does straight away, even myself. People will say ‘You handled it well.' I've been retired just over three years and I knew. Everyone seemed to me it's at least two years before you even... There's still things you struggle with it. And that was spot on. It just takes a lot of time to understand that you're never going to get up in the morning and have that same drive. You're very lucky that when you're as a sportsman or woman to have that drive. Just do the same thing. But you got to find something else, and it will never replace that and it's not meant to, but it's a challenge for everyone. Those life experiences during that sporting career are so important so that when the bubble bursts, when you come out of it, it's just a little bit easier to find your feet. Because otherwise, that is tough, and it's a bit of a worry.  Lisa: Yeah yeah exactly. Just on even from that identity of being this athlete and you had a singular purpose. Pretty much every day when you got up, it was to train and it was to be the best for the next game or the next whatever. And that gets taken away and then the complexity of life comes in. Yeah? I retired from doing ultramarathons at 48. It's a sport where you can go a lot longer, and I've got mates that are still in their 60s and 70s doing it. But what I do see often in the ultra running community is they don't know anything else so, 'I'm going to stick with what I know and I'm just going to beat the crap out of my body until it falls into the ground.' Rather than going, 'Hang on a minute. This is no longer conducive to what I really want for me.' And reassessing. With rugby, you're forced to because physically, at 48, you wouldn't be able to keep up with a 20-year-old.  There's that whole, have you struggled? I know I've struggled with that whole identity. Like, 'Who the hell am I if I'm not that hardass athlete and I'm not able to do what I used to do?' Because I still get it in the running scene, 'Oh, a marathon must be... you must do that before breakfast.' I'm like, 'Yeah, no. That's not...' Now, a 5K's quite long. You know what I mean? So your horizon comes back in. So I've spent decades pushing my horizon out to be able to go longer, longer, longer, bigger. Then, life happens. In my case it was mum and that was the end of the career. It was high time; it was overdue. But that whole, you just had the rug pulled out from under you, and your identity is tied up in that performance. Have you found that a struggle?  Conrad: Yeah. Yeah, I think. Like I say, everyone does. You're lying if you say people do it easy. Again, I think a lot of the work, hopefully, athletes that handle it better have thought about that work during their career and they don't... We were given some great support while I was playing, particularly, within the All Blacks, guys like Gilbert Enoka with the background. And the whole mental side of not just the game, but of life, in terms of keeping...being grounded, keeping perspective. Part of that was your identity and not letting rugby define you. We used to say that you're a person that plays rugby, you're not a rugby player. It has this other life. You're actually... I play rugby because I like playing. Maybe that's not who I am. That's what the public sees, and I think if you get a handle on that while you're playing, then you understand that when rugby is taken away but that's not part of... ‘That's what I used to do. Now, I'm not doing it anymore but I'm still the person I've been this whole way. Now, my journey carries on.'  Like I say, that's easier said than done. There's people that become the rugby player. That's all they are, and so that's the real challenge. For me, it was about just finding other challenges. And I think anyone in terms of rugby or any sport yourself, you find other challenges, it gives you... You realise your own identity and you find other things to do that give you fulfilment. I think aligned with that is the whole... When I think of rugby players, a lot of them who find the identity in rugby, they then just go on to coaching, and this is a real problem, and it might... I don't think that's just with the sport of rugby, but you have a lot of retired players that feel like they have to coach because they think it's all they know.  The challenge, I suppose is, then of being careful not to fall into that trap. It was easier for me. I studied. I used to be a lawyer. I'm sure I could go back and do that. Maybe not as a lawyer, but there are other skills that I have. That's a really hard message, but it's a really important message to give all sportsmen. To rugby players, I'm always telling them, 'You don't have to stay in rugby, you know. You played, you finished, you don't have to coach.' There's going to be hundreds and thousands of players finishing career and they think they have to coach. But their skills are transferable to hundreds of different professions and things that will pay them well. You can keep being yourself.  Even for me, I've stayed within rugby but it's not coaching. I'm working with the Players Association, International Players Association and that suits me. That's my skill set: a bit of the law, the analytical side of me that I've always had. And I think that was important. It's sort of my process of moving away from that identity as just 'Conrad Smith, the rugby player.' It's important to find other things that challenge me and that I enjoy. Lisa: Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody and we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's patron.lisatamati.com. We have two patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as 7 dollars a month, New Zealand, or 15 dollars a month if you really want to support us. We are grateful if you do.There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us: everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries, and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com. And thanks very much for joining us.  Lisa: That's awesome and thanks for sharing that because I think that's... Being able to openly have these conversations because there are a lot of athletes in lots of different sports struggling with this whole process of... Your career is so short, and you're not a has-been. I asked myself these conversations, and most especially in the beginning is, 'You're nothing now. You're a has-been now. You can't do it.' And being embarrassed about that, instead of going, 'Hang on a minute. I'm still pretty fricking epic and I do other stuff.' Now, that's freed up a huge piece of my brain and my daily power and energy to then go and attack other massive projects.  There's so many things in the world that you can take on. It's all up to you to develop a certain passion. And I think it's not even just in the sports realm. I see people who are in careers that got friends and careers, they don't want to be there anymore but they studied it, they became it, they did it. whatever it was. Now, they're like, 'Is that it?' It doesn't have to be it, no. We live in a day and age where we can actually go and retrain. In fact, we have to be adaptable and flexible in this day and age if we want to keep up because the world is changing so fast. So many jobs are going to be gone and whole industries.  As a jeweller in a previous life, that industry got destroyed, really. If you weren't in the big game with big brands and Chinese mass production and stuff like that and you're an artisan, a person who made one-off pieces, you're struggling now unless you really got the top massive diamonds and God knows what. Everyone else is struggling, so you have to go, 'Okay, that industry's change. I'm going to have to adapt, change, go with it, overcome it, improvise, and keep developing.' I think that's the message that we're getting here is you don't box yourself in. don't just be that one-trick pony. That's not, and Conrad is now an advocate, he's a father, he's a speaker.  Whatever you decide that you want to be, you can become. And you're not just Conrad, the All Black. I think that's a really important transition for everybody to go through. Even if you're a policeman or a teacher and you don't want to do that anymore or whatever the case is. Conrad: Yeah, and it takes a bit of courage. Like I said before, it's easier said than done a lot of the time. And that's what people just need that encouragement. Especially with finances and people suddenly are, 'I've got a mortgage on a house. I don't want to change career because there might be a layer where I'm not earning money.' But yeah, I just think that's... You come back to some questions about who you are, who you want to be, and you've got to be... You'll be happy doing what you're doing. So I just think all the help you can get from people around you, that's where you'll draw the energy, I think. If it's a conversation you're just having in your own mind, you will never get anywhere. You just need to open up about it, speak to people close to you, and I think that's generally where the answers come from.  Lisa: Yeah. I think that's gold. On that point, how big is mental health in your work? Do you do a lot around supporting mental health, and that sort of thing, and helping people transition, and all that sort of jazz?  Conrad: Yeah, absolutely. More and more, it's a complex field. When you talk about players in the game, in the sport of rugby, it's really difficult. We were starting to appreciate the pressures I think that sportsmen and women are under in these fields. It's a lot of… it draws that back on what we were talking about before. You're in a bubble and you do lose perspective and so not as the... The challenge is to help these young, these kids that are in these bubbles to speak different, and keep living, and look at sport as this amazing opportunity, and not feel the pressure. Well, maybe saying not feeling the pressure is the wrong way to put it because it's natural, but to feel the pressure and find a way to deal with that, a healthy way to deal with it. Again, I look back on my career and you're playing for the All Blacks, you're playing World Cups, it's easy to talk about pressure. There was never times that I didn't know how to deal with it, and that was from the sport I had, and maybe the background, and my upbringing. But it was easily... You just channel that and see and look at it differently and decide. Look at the opportunity that every time you feel pressure, you get it, it's as simple as just changing the perspective of things rather than the pressure of, ‘You have to win'. ‘I'm an All Black, I want to win because…' Whatever. ‘I've got a country behind me,' and suddenly, it's a burden that's lifted and yeah, you flipped it and you're puffing out your chest, and you want to do it. If it doesn't come off, it's a game. There's more important things, absolutely, around. But yeah, like I keep saying, it's not easy for everyone and there's people that understand that better. The challenge is getting through to people of different backgrounds, and different cultures, and different ages.  Lisa: Yeah with different problems.  Conrad: Yeah. I'm saying that because I know what works for me, but I know a 17-year-old young Samoan boy who's playing rugby, I don't know for the Highlanders, I might not be able to connect with him. The things that worked for me won't work for him. That's what I'm trying to say. Or the female swimmer who's doing, training for an Olympics. We're all different, and the challenge is finding a way for everyone to deal with that pressure and to be mentally healthy through a sports career. Lisa: I love that approach and just coming off the back of the Olympics. It was just wonderful to watch our amazing athletes doing amazing things. Lisa Carrington just blows me away. She's mentally just insane. But I love that thing of the challenge versus threat. I think this is a really important thing to do. When you're feeling overwhelmed and overburdened and like the whole world of pressure is on me, you going out and something the World Cup, were you able, even in those extreme pressure moments, to turn that into an opportunity and not a threat? Because that does change the physiology. Like when you're running on the paddock on those days, those couple of times in your life where it's just been horrifically big pressure, how did you physically and mentally cope there?  Conrad: Yeah, I think we've spent a lot of time, and everyone did, preparing for that World Cup. Again, as All Blacks, you have to spend a lot of time because you know the pressure that comes with and the expectation that comes with being an All Black in New Zealand. But even more so a World Cup, a home World Cup, when we hadn't won, I think 2011. A lot of our preparation time wasn't just being on the field with how we're going to play but was how to deal with that pressure. For me, it was just constantly turning it around so that it was never a moment I even... I can look back and think of times in the game where the team was under pressure and it would be perceived as... Even in that final hour, the team struggled a bit with the pressure, but if I'm being honest, our preparation never let us feel that way. We were dealing with that all the time.  We just were focused on doing our job. We talked so much about whatever comes our way, we were going to adapt and deal with it and that's what you just had to keep doing. You never sort of stop, and you'll notice yourself, you just don't let yourself stop and think about that. I think if you've got to that stage, it's too late. If you're having to go through a process of. 'How do I deal with this?' It's probably too late. You've already, hopefully, got a process in place where you're just, it's just instinctively, you're just channelling that, focusing on little details. Because you know whatever the pressure, that's not going to influence you unless you need it. You just focus on the small tasks and you get through 80 minutes of rugby like that, keep a smile on your face. Lisa: Pull your focus into the job at hand instead of the: 'Oh my god. Everyone's watching me. Everyone's pressuring. Hang on a minute I've just got to pass this ball right now.' You're breaking it down into little tiny... Conrad: We all have little trigger words and I know we've talked about this: ‘Be in the now.' Be in the now, which is like just what you're talking about. It's not thinking about the mistake you might have just made, the ball you drop, the tackle you missed, and it's not worrying, and you're not thinking about the World Cup, you're going to win at the end of this game. Because you can't do anything. Right now. ‘Right now. Right now, I'm going to catch this next ball.' Look up, keep looking, keep calling, whatever it is. It's as simple as a little thing like that that just keeps you in tune with the moment and not letting you get overwhelmed by the bigger picture. Yeah, massively important, obviously. The bigger the moments and the bigger the pressure, it's the funny thing, it's the more important that you focus on the smaller, minute detail.  Lisa: I love it. I said try to forget the consequences of what you're doing. You've done the preparation. You've done the work. You've done everything that you possibly can. You're standing on the start line, in my case, a race, then letting go of the outcome because you've done what you can do. And now, it's up to the whatever happens in the next few hours or days, in my case. So this was no longer just in your hands then. Because the gods have a thing to say about it as well. Sometimes, if you try and control the uncontrollable, then you'll drive yourself to madness, whereas if you can go, 'I've done the stuff that I was responsible for. I've put the work and I've done the preparation. I know my strategies. I know my pacing. I know whatever it is I'm doing. I got that right. Okay. I'm going to keep my eye on the ball here. But I'm going to let go of the outcome now.' Because when you let go of the outcome, then that pressure goes and you're in that...  Being in that now is a really powerful message to people. Because when you're in the past or the future, you're either worrying about the future, or you're regretting what's happened in the past, or it's a load for you to carry. In the moment, when you're under pressure, all you can cope with is that second right now. The next minute. That's it. When I was running long distances, I would break it down into: 'What's the next power pole? I just got to get to the next power pole. If I can't even get that far, I'm just gonna take one more step.' You can always take one more step, right? If you break it down into one more step, just one more, and then you just keep going and keep going. Then, invariably, that mindset or that thing that's in your head passes, and then you're back in the game.  Conrad: That's funny, you sound... because someone I remember that came and spoke to the team when we were outside joined the team in 2004, and we had Amish Carter came and spoke with the team. It was before the 2007 World Cup and obviously, that World Cup didn't end well, but some of what he said, I still remember it. He was talking about his Olympic performances, and he said, and I think one of the questions from the players was about we're talking: the nerves and the pressure. And I remember him saying that he wasn't nervous. He wasn't nervous when he got to the start line just for the reasons you said. He said: ‘Because then, I'd backed on my prep, I'd done everything I needed to do. Now, it was just a matter of going out and doing that. You can't do anymore.' It's funny that when I looked, especially towards into my career, the only times I would feel nervous normally, on the start of a week. So if we play the game on a Saturday, and that was because I'm nervous thinking of all the things I've got to do on the Monday, Tuesday. But by the Friday, I would have this real sense of calm. I'd have a smile and I'll be like, 'Right now, it's time to do it.' It's funny because people, it's the opposite. They're not thinking about a game on Monday, Tuesday, but they were getting nervous on before a game starts thinking, 'You must be even worse.' But yeah, that was the way I could explain it is that we're really... I was nervous thinking about the game but now, I've done all that. This is the path I've taken. This is the training I've done for this game. Now, I'm ready to... I'm going to go and do it and see if it works. Lisa: Yeah, this is the reward phase. This is actually what you've been preparing for all along, so this is the time when you actually should be enjoying it. It wasn't always that easy especially when you're doing a couple hundred K's somewhere because sometimes it's not that pleasant. But you've done the work to get to the start line and the times where I am being nervous is when I hadn't done the work.  Conrad: Exactly. I think of some... I don't like admitting it but normally, with All Blacks, you always have checked every box but there were games, I'd go back even the Hurricanes or Club Games and that's the ones where I'd be nervous because I'd be thinking... ‘I haven't really... now this week. I probably haven't done…' Then, you get nervous but actually the bigger the occasion, the preparation is normally good.  Lisa: You took it seriously and yeah, yeah. I've come stuck on some short races where I've had my ass handed to me because I went in with the... That's just the short race, and oh my god. Had my ass handed to me. So yeah, always respect every distance or every game. I think it's key. What's it actually like, Conrad, to be... The first time that you put on that All Blacks jersey? Because it's every little boy and now, little girl's dream too. What's it actually like to put on that sort of thing for the first time? Can you remember?  Conrad: Yeah for sure. It's pretty special. I do think I was really lucky the way it panned out for me in terms of... It happened really quickly. I'd play. I hadn't even played the Super Rugby game. I hadn't played for the Hurricanes. When it started, I had a really... I was playing for the Wellington Lions. We made the final, and then I was picked, fortunately. So the coaching staff that had come in wanted to pick some new younger players and I was one of those. That was very much sort of out of the blue. Then, I was starting the following week. So I played a final. The team was picked. We assembled the end of that following week. We flew to Italy, and then I was playing.  But that was great in hindsight because it didn't let me overthink that. It was sort of okay, and I just was like, 'Right.' Little bit like what I said before, 'I'm just going to enjoy it.' Admittedly there were people around me. Graham Henry, Ryan Smith, Steve Hansen, great coaches, and Gilbert Enoka that were giving me those messages. Just telling me, 'We're picking you in the first game. Just go and enjoy it. Just keep doing what you're doing. We love what you're doing.' So those messages for a young guy were perfect. I didn't actually question that. Yeah, I just took the jersey. I was still sort of pinching myself how quickly it happened. But yeah, then there I was playing and yeah, it was an amazing experience.  I'm glad to say it never really diminished. I was lucky to play for over a decade, and it was always special putting on the jersey. The team does a great job, I think, of respecting the jersey, acknowledging how important it is to their country, what we mean to everyone, and staying grounded, and all that good stuff about acknowledging the connection that you have with the young men and women who are dreaming to being All Black, wishing they were there, would give anything to be in your place. So you're always aware of that, and so it never loses its glow. Then I put my jersey on.  Brian Hoyer who was a big part of the team when I joined the team, he said ‘When you put the jersey on, you shouldn't be able to fit outside the doorway.' You grow that big. I'm not using the words and I always... For me, I was normally marking someone bigger than me or normally not the biggest in the room but I always felt that. That I have to turn sideways to get out the door but that was the sort of feeling and you hear that even today: The way you sort of, you grow in the jersey. Lisa: You're carrying the manner and the tradition of that, and the reputation of that, and the hopes of a nation, basically, on your shoulders, which can be either a load or it can be like, 'Wow, how lucky am I that I get to stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before?' Basically and like you said, 'Yeah, I can't fit through the door because I'm just filled with all that.'  Okay, just a very quick anecdote. I was running through in the Gobi Desert at one point and we were running through these slot canyons. These really crazy. It was hot. One guy died out there that day which was really terrible. I was running through there and I was chasing down this American woman who was in front of me and I was second. I'm like, 'I've got to plan something here if I want to beat this person in front of me that I was chasing down through these canyons.'  So I started singing the Maori Battalion song to myself and I started to... like my ancestors, and my tradition there, my heritage like, 'I'm going to bloody beat you, American. Yeah. I'm gonna chase you down, and I'm singing away to myself running along through this canyon.' I beat her, right. It was awesome. I just went dashing past her, and I beat her. But it was just like, 'Wow.' It's just like you're pulling out stuff that you... It's not just you. You're like your ancestors and your heritage, and they're powering you. So I imagine it's a bit the same with the All Blacks jersey.  Conrad: Yeah. It's powerful stuff. Like, and it's all about creating something bigger than you. There's no doubt the history of things or like you say, in individual sports. As soon as you can create that connection to a greater cause. Actually, in the All Blacks, it's actually easy. I say this when I talk to other sports teams around how they create the identity. But the All Blacks had it handed to them because they have 130 years of whatever it is of this amazing performance, of this history, this black jersey that this country that's mad obsessed with them, great air of success and also, this idea that we do unite. We're the flagship of New Zealand. Rightly or wrongly, that's the way we're saying and you got to embrace that.  The fact that every time an All Black teams practice, it's a culture we have in New Zealand. This great collection of men who are representing the country. You capture that in the right way, and it counts as something. The field is 00 but I always felt... Yeah, when we got it right, we're straight away. That's worth some points at least on the board. It's something special that the All Blacks do have, and to the credit of the team, the whole time, I was involved. I know that it's carrying on that the way they connect and acknowledge that, it's really well done. It's the reason that the team continues to perform well. Lisa: And it does it empower whole generations. Like I said to my brother Dawson, my dad wanted him to be an All Black, and he wanted him to meet all those milestones along the way. I remember like... We lost my dad last year, as people know, if they listened to my podcast. I said to my brother the other day, 'Dawson,' because he went to the game up at the park, at Pukekura Park and they had the 25-year anniversary for the Ranfurly Shield because he was on the Ranfurly Shield team. He was excited to go to the Ranfurly Shield thing, and I remember that being the proudest moment of my dad's life. Of all the things that my dad got to do and see, all of their kids, I said to Dawson, 'You gave him the highest point in his life was when you came home with that Ranfurly Shield, and you're a part of that Taranaki Team. That was, for him, the pinnacle.'  That's beautiful because that is just like... Especially when you've lost somebody... And Dawson's like, to be able to go and celebrate that Ranfurly Shield with his old mates and reminisce on those times. That stays with you to the end: those special moments that you get, and that camaraderie that comes with it, and all of that sort of stuff. He gave my dad a precious gift really by being a part of that team. Dad was just so proud.  Dawson said to me once, 'Lisa, you could run across every fricking desert in the world and it would still not mean as much as that Ranfurly Shield.' And I said, 'You're damn right, and that's okay.' Because he was right in that. It's okay because he loved rugby, and he loved rugby teams, and the rugby world. My dad played, what do you call that? Fifth-grade rugby until he was 45 and he only quit because people were telling him he was too old, and then he played touch for another 10 years. He was a legend. A legend.  You're carrying all that on your shoulders. There are five and six-year-old kids looking at you on screen like you did with Daws back then. Like, 'Oh, these big Taranaki players and stuff.' That's just beautiful. I had that just wanting to represent New Zealand in something because I couldn't be in All Blacks because back then, we didn't have women playing rugby, much to my dad's disappointment. Actually watching the girls at the sevens in the Olympics, oh, I just fell in love with that team. They were just epic. Ruby Tui is my new bloody hero. She's just amazing. I think she's just epic. But just to watch the camaraderie of those girls and the performance that they put on, I'm glad that women now have the chance to do that tough stuff too. Because that's pretty special as well: seeing girls going there and giving it everything, just going hard.  Conrad: You speak to the Black Ferns, the women's rugby, it's growing so much not just in New Zealand, but around the world and that's pretty exciting, especially for Fifteens and the opportunity it's giving so many young women. Yeah and so for myself, that's really refreshing now with international rugby and the Player Association and we deal with both men and women's. The joy I hear working in women's rugby, seriously, compared to men's, especially men's Fifteens, it's a lot of established... Careful with my words, but it's just so hard. To put it simply, it's so hard to get things done even if you agree there's so much.  Whereas in the women's game, it's so refreshing. There's just an openness and the enthusiasm. They just, 'Yep. Let's get that done and this.' You will see, women's rugby going to go great in the next few years, and it's because of... In the men's game, I don't like to say it, but it might not have anywhere near the same growth or evolution just because it's... Lisa: Stayed in the old ways. It obviously breaks everything, isn't it?  Conrad: The money, the money at that level is so big that there's so much at stake. That's just what grinds along, whereas the women's game, they're not... Obviously, they're trying to commercialise on the game, but it's crumbs compared to the men's for things at the moment. But they'll catch up at a huge rate because they're just open about... Like at the moment, they're motivated by having fun, being patient, at getting the product out, getting more and more women and girls playing the game.  Lisa: That's amazing and isn't that though that's a really good analogy for everything in the world? Like that the big old institutions or big bureaucracies are going to be struggling in the future, I think. Completely off-topic but from the governments, to the big corporations, to the big institutions are going to be struggling against these young, nimble, small, exponentially powered technology-based companies and the rate of change that's coming that these big state, old bureaucratic, not just talking about rugby here, but governments and things are actually going to be on the backfoot shortly.  I always think of that Kodak, the company Kodak that used to be the biggest player in the world and photography, right? They didn't go with digital evolution, then they went under. Because they were too busy trying to protect what they already had, they actually discovered digital photography. They started it, but they didn't pursue it because they thought, 'Oh, that's going to be a threat to our current existing business.' That mindset is when you get overtaken by the young upstarts that come along with enthusiasm and they can, on a company-wide level, they're smaller. They're nimble. They can make decisions quicker. They can move faster. I see this in all areas happening. Hopefully, in the right way it'll brush off as well, but the girls certainly are next level.  Conrad: They're great. And I've got to know a few of them, a few of the Black Ferns. Lisa: Can you help me out with Ruby? I want to get in with Ruby. Conrad: That is such great Kiwi so yeah, more than happy. She'd love to chat. Lisa: Woohoo. Okay. I know she's pretty busy right now. Everybody in the world wants to see her right now. And the other girls, they're just amazing. Conrad, as we wrap it up now in a minute because I know you got to go, but what is it that you want to get across? So if we highlighted a couple of points now, if you were talking to your children, you've got two kids, what do you want them to do in the future? Or what would you, if you were talking to some young kids out there that want to have a life in the sporting world? What's some last parting wisdom or for the parents of those kids?  Conrad: Yeah, I think if you're speaking to parents, the first thing is the value of sport, I think. I just worry a little bit. I know I'm working in rugby, and there's some crazy things being said about the potential harms of playing a contact sport. But honestly, I've had the benefit of seeing, digging a lot deeper into that and that is not at all as clear as it's conveyed because of the sensationalism of journalism. Kids are kids. They love playing. If I leave my boy and his next-door neighbour, they're gonna wrestle; they're gonna fight. There's no harm in playing.  But on the flip side, the harm of not playing sport, of sheltering them, of thinking, of sitting in a lounge with a Coke and a bag of lolly is better for a kid than going and playing rugby because he might knock his head. That's so far from the truth. That would be my wish for parents' young kids. Just play sport but... And then, I suppose, if it's to reflect on what we've talked about, when the kid means getting serious about a sport, it would be to keep you balanced, to not lose sight. If you're put in a bubble because it's a performance bubble, then that's all well and good but now, it's a bubble and you need to step out of that every chance you get and connect with the real world as much as you can.  Unfortunately, there are dangers and there are risks when you are totally invested into a sport. The crazy thing is sport is a great thing. It should be enjoyed and if you're even not enjoying it, it's not hard just to talk to someone and step outside your sport to reconnect with the people in the real world. Then, that should give you back your love of the game, and then you'll go well and be like Lisa and I and have a life where you've had a sport that you've loved, and it's given you amazing opportunities, and literally meet great people, and you still come out of it, and you're still happy, and still meet people but doing different things. Lisa: This is gold. Conrad, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. I'm looking forward to doing our speaking gig together shortly and that's going to be exciting. I'm just really glad to have made your acquaintance and I think that you have such a level approach, level-headed approach to this whole thing and gave us some great insights today on what it is to be an All Black, but also what it is to come out the other side and gave us some really good perspective. So thanks for your time today, Conrad. Conrad: Pleasure, Lisa.  That's it this week for Pushing the Limits. Be sure to rate, review, and share with your friends, and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.   

When was the last time you got up and ran? Simply jogging around the neighbourhood during the weekends to keep fit may be daunting for some. Now, imagine the sheer amount of dedication, endurance, and resilience ultramarathoning requires. This type of long-distance running is an activity that tests the limits of human endurance. You might think running a thousand miles is impossible, but today's guest continues to prove others wrong. He's on a mission to exceed his limits and inspire others to do the same. Dean Karnazes joins us in this episode to get up close and personal about his experiences in ultramarathoning. He candidly shares the highs and lows, the triumphs and defeats. We also find out the importance of failure and finding magic in misery.  If you're interested in discovering how you can build your character, embrace pain and failure, and get inspired to push your limits, then this episode is for you.    Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Discover how to cope with the ups and downs of ultramarathoning. Learn about the importance of pain and failure. Get inspired by Dean's valuable takeaways from his career.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. You can also join their free live webinar on epigenetics.   Online Coaching for Runners Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching. You can also join our free live webinar on runners' warm-up to learn how a structured and specific warm-up can make a massive difference in how you run.   Consult with Me If you would like to work with me one to one on anything from your mindset, to head injuries,  to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again. Still, I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ For my other two best-selling books, Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   My Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-aging and longevity with NMN Bio.  A new program, BOOSTCAMP, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!  Listen to my other Pushing the Limits episodes:  #8: Dean Karnazes - The Road to Sparta #183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova Connect with Dean: Website Books by Dean Karnazes:  Ultramarathon Man: Confessions of an All-Night Runner A Runner's High: My Life in Motion Dean's other books   Episode Highlights [05:21] Dean's Lockdown Experience in Australia Dean was supposed to go on a 1000-mile run across New South Wales.  After boarding a jet to Australia, he found that the pandemic situation was getting worse.  And so, Dean and Pat Farmer will be doing their run in a military base instead. Although he's quarantined inside a hotel room, Dean always stays moving and does bodyweight exercises to remain active. It was challenging to go from California, where 80% have been vaccinated, to Australia, which is still in lockdown. [11:18] Chronological and Biological Age Chronologically, Dean is closer to 60 than 50 years old. There are various ways to test your biological age, like C-reactive proteins and inflammation. Tune in to the full episode to learn more about what else goes into calculating your biological age. [14:17] Dean's Greek Heritage Dean's mother is from Ikaria, a Blue Zones with the highest concentration of centenarians worldwide. People in Ikaria live long, healthy lives. They don't pay attention to time and live in a strong community. Therefore, they are not prone to stress. Dean doesn't have any back, muscle, or joint pain. [18:50] Know What Your Body is Built For People are built to run at different speeds and distances. Various factors affect what you're optimised to do.  What's important is knowing the things that are optimal for your health. Dean has run over 300 traditional marathons in his career. He has also seen people well past their 70s who are still physically able and active. [22:04] What is A Runner's High About? A Runner's High is about the changes that he, the world, and ultramarathoning has undergone. Ultramarathoning impacts the people closest to you. Dean wanted to write a true and honest story about his reflections over the past three decades.  [24:00] Running the Western States Endurance Run This 100-mile trail race starts in Sierra Nevada, California. Dean first did this race in 1994. To him, this was an unforgettable experience. Going back after 13 times, Dean found that watching his dad and son crew for him and seeing how things changed over time was transformative for him. Dean recounts his experiences in detail in A Runner's High. [25:54] The Surprises of Parenting Kids grow faster than parents can adjust to them growing up.  Dean describes his son Nick as dichotomous, recounting how he would complain about his roommates being slobs while his own room is a mess. Nick volunteered to crew for him. Dean thought Nick would be irresponsible. Nick surprised Dean; he was much more responsible than Dean's dad. It's a parent's burden to accept that their child is now a self-sufficient, capable adult. [29:58] Did Dean's Career and Fame Affect His Family? Ultramarathoning has always been a family affair for Dean.  He would take his family to where his marathons are. Dean's kids had the opportunity to travel to different places from a young age. Fans that come up to him asking for autographs and selfies are decent people. [34:44] Dealing with Pain and Failure When you're in pain, it's difficult to interact with others. Dean admits that it can be tough when his fans come up to chat with him during this time. He commits to setting aside his ego and always gives 100% in everything he does, including ultramarathoning and interacting with fans. [40:44] The Value of Failing Success builds character, but failure more profoundly so. The emotional range that comes with failure makes one a better human. Don't shy away from hitting rock bottom because you'll be missing out on a profound character-building opportunity. In the end, it's a matter of perspective. Most people will applaud the distance that you run, whether you come in first or not. [44:49] Ultramarathoning is Achieving the Impossible Dean initially thought there was trickery involved in ultramarathoning. The moments that stuck to Dean in his career weren't victories or crossing finish lines.  What stuck to him were the moments when he was on the verge of giving up but persisted through difficulty. [48:04] The Importance of Character Ultramarathoning teaches you to be resilient through the tough times. Running doesn't hurt when you're doing it right. Some people try to avoid difficult things and pain, while others embrace them. We've built our world around comfort, but somehow we're still miserable. However, the more struggle you experience, the more strength you build. [53:21] Dean's Biggest Takeaways From Ultramarathoning To Dean, it's the little moments that are the most priceless. Ultramarathoning is a journey, a passion, and a commitment. Staying true to yourself is valuable, simple, and magical. [56:11] Forming Connections Through Books Writing is laborious, but the motivation it brings to people makes it worthwhile. Dean dictates the things he wants to write on his phone while running.  Running clears Dean's thoughts. To him, motion stirs emotion. A singularity of purpose is achieved when focusing on a specific goal or mission.   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘Some people are built to run far and slow, and other people are built to run quick and short.' ‘In school, you get the lesson and you take the test. In parenting, you take the test, and then you get the lesson.' ‘What can you do other than just do your best? You're human. All of us can only just do our best.' ‘When I stand on the starting line, I'm going to give it my all. I'm not going to leave anything on this course. I'm just going to be the best that Dean can be. I'm going to try my hardest and the only way I'm going to fail is if I don't try my hardest and don't give it my all.' ‘I think bold failures build character. I have to be honest. Success builds character, but so does failure and in a more profound way.' ‘We've built our world around comfort: having every comfort available and removing as much discomfort and pain as we can. And I think, in a way, we're so comfortable, we're miserable.' ‘I'm just a runner, but that's who I am and I'm staying true to that. I'm going to do that to the grave. And I think in that, there's a simplicity and I think there's some magic in that.'   About Dean Dean Karnazes is a renowned ultramarathon runner. Among his many accomplishments, he has run 50 marathons in 50 days on 50 consecutive days, gone across the Sahara Desert in 120-degree temperatures, and ran 350 miles without sleep. He has also raced and competed in all seven continents twice. Dean has carried the Olympic Torch twice. He appeared on the covers of Runner's World, Outside, and Wired, and has been featured in TIME, People, GQ, and Forbes. He was named one of the "Top 100 Most Influential People in the World". Men's Fitness has also labelled him as one of the fittest men in the world. To top it off, Dean is also a New York Times bestselling author and a much sought-after speaker and panellist in running and athletic events worldwide.  If you want to learn more about Dean, his incredible adventures and his achievements, you may visit his website.   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can find inspiration from Dean's stories on ultramarathoning and the lessons he learned along the way. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You can also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Trasncript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential, with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Good day, everyone. Welcome back to Pushing the Limits, your host Lisa Tamati here. Today, I have one of my longtime friends and a guy who has had a massive influence in my life both as a role model and as someone who has facilitated me with a lot of help with my books and so on. He's a worldwide legend. He is Dean Karnazes. He is the author of four books. And he has a new one out called the Runner's High, which I was excited to give me an excuse to chat to my buddy, and see what he's been up to, and to talk everything, ultramarathon running. We talk a whole lot about getting older in ultramarathon running, and the difficulties, and we talk about life in general and longevity, and the beauty of the sport. He's an incredible ambassador for our sport. He's done so much. He's brought so many people into the sport worldwide and he's an incredible human being. He's actually stuck in lockdown in Australia right at the moment as we were recording this and was about to do a race ride around Australia with my other friend, Pat Farmer. Another incredible human being. These guys are just next level crazy, and bloody COVID has ripped everything so they're now down to doing thousand-mile race around a military base in Australia in New South Wales. But in true ultramarathon form, where there's a will, there's a way. And when there's an obstacle, you find a way around it. Improvise, adapt, and overcome as my friend Craig Harper always says. So that's what these guys have been doing. So I hope you enjoy this episode with Dean Karnazes. Without him, I wouldn't have my books. He is a very generous and caring person as well as being an incredible athlete. Before we head over to the show, just want to remind you, we have our BOOSTCAMP live webinar series coming up starting on the first of September 2021. If you're listening to this later on, we will be doing these on an ongoing basis. And actually, we have planned to set up a mastermind that goes the year long. I don't know how long it's gonna take us to get organised but that is our goal. We're all about helping each other upgrade our lives and be the best versions of ourselves that we can be. This one's called BOOSTCAMP. This eight-week-long webinar series that Neil and I are doing. This is a live series where you hang out with us once a week for an hour and get a lot of great information: the latest science, the latest biohacking, the latest longevity, everything about mental toughness, resilience, everything that's going to basically upgrade your life and help you be a better human. The stuff that we've spent years and decades actually studying, learning, and doing. So I hope you get to enjoy this with us. You can head on over to peakwellness.co.nzboostcamp. That's B-O-O-S-T camp. BOOSTCAMP, not boot camp. We won't be making you run around doing anything. We're just going to be having wonderful chats and education. A lot of lectures and a lot of fun to be had along the way. And, I think, what's most important is you'll be networking with like-minded individuals. They say that you are the sum total of the five people that you hang out with most. And make those five people, in this case, it will be a few more, some top-quality people who are all on a mission the same as you are. So if you want to come and join us, that's BOOSTCAMP. We also have our epigenetics program. If you want to know all about your genetics, and how to upgrade your life through your genes, understanding what your genes do, if you're dealing with a difficult health journey, and you don't know where to go to next, this is a very good place to start. This is our flagship program that we've been running for years now. We've taken hundreds and hundreds of people through this program. And it's really an incredible all-encompassing program that looks at your food, your exercise types, what time of the day to do different things, your mood and behaviour, and lots, lots more. So come and check that out at lisatamati.com and hit the ‘Work with Us' button then you'll see our Peak Epigenetics program there if you're interested in doing that. Right. Now, over to the show with Dean Karnazes who's sitting in lockdown in Australia. Well. Hi, everyone and welcome to the show. Today, I have my very good friend and absolute legend of ultramarathoning, Dean Karnazes, with me. Dean, welcome to the show, again. Repeat offender. Dean Karnazes: Oh, it's so nice to be back on with you. Thank you for having me. We always have such lively conversations. I love it. Lisa: We do, right? I just absolutely enjoy your company. Whenever I've had the chance to spend a little bit of time with you, it's been absolute gold whether it's been on the podcast, or interviewing you, or hanging out with you on the Gold Coast like we did last year. That was absolutely awesome. Dean, you've just brought out another book. Another amazing book called Runner's High, and that's why we had to get you back on, because I want to share about all this book. But before we get into the book, you're sitting in lockdown in Australia. Tell me what is going on there. Dean: It's a long story but it started with a run across Australia with Pat Farmer. So from Western Australia to the East Coast, and that was the original idea; it was 5,000 kilometres. And this was six months ago when the world was going in a better direction, and over the past six months, boy, the world has done just the opposite. And we, like you, are a fighter and we kept saying we're going to persevere the same... Well, the run across Australia got mixed to a run across New South Wales, a thousand-mile run across New South Wales. And we kept thinking, 'This is going to happen. This is going to happen.' I boarded the plane, I flew to Australia with 10 people on the huge jet, yeah. And when I get to Australia, I realise how bad the situation is here. And every day, I turn on the news. It's getting worse, it's getting worse as I'm in quarantine, and then finally Pat called me a couple days ago and said, 'We can't do the thousand-mile run now. We could still the thousand-mile run. It's just going to be contained within a military base because we need to stay in our own bubble.' And I thought 'Oh.' Lisa: He has flown away from America to Australia to run around the military base. It sounds a bit like being tactic stuff. Dean: Oh, yeah. And not only the... To sit in quarantine. To your point, I've been in our hotel room for 12 days now, waiting to get out, yeah. Lisa: For someone like you... You're just like me. Obviously, you're even more extreme than me. It must be torture. I just can't comprehend being in a room. This must be awful for you. Dean: Don't remind me, but yeah. Basically, from the moment I get up, I'm staying active. We both know the importance of movement. So from the moment my head leaves the pillow, I'm not sitting down ever. Even right now, I'm pacing back and forth in this room, and I'm doing bodyweight exercises just constantly, at least throughout the day. Lisa: I used to... If I was travelling and I was stuck in a hotel room somewhere in a dangerous city or whatever, I'd put on something running on TV and run along with them. I was doing the Boston Marathon in Budapest in a hotel room one day. Just run along the spot. Doesn't matter. You got to do something to keep active, so I can imagine it being a bit of a mission for you. So my heart goes out to you and hang in there for two more days. And all my love, please, to Pat Farmer. I love the guy. He's just amazing. We got to hang out when we're in the Big Red Run together, which I failed spectacularly, by the way. I had a back injury that walked me out in the middle of that race. But one of the big advantages of that run was actually getting to meet Pat Farmer because he's an absolute legend of the sport. So you two together would be a really powerful combination. I'm really sad that he's not going to go right around Australia because imagine the people that would have come out and enjoyed meeting you two. Dean: Oh, he pulled all the strings. He's very well connected in political circles and the Australian Army is crazy for us. So we had 13 Army personnel and they're setting up a tent city every night, and they're cooking for us. It was amazing but COVID had other plans. Lisa: Oh, bloody COVID. It's wrecking every damn thing. Hey, but it's ultramarathon runner and Pat Farmer who has run from the North Pole to the South Pole, people. Absolute crazy guy. Obstacle? Find a way around it. Obstacle? Find a way around. And that's what you guys are doing, and you have to be flexible. That's a good lesson for this day and age because we're all having to be very, very flexible right now, and adapt to a hell of a lot of change, and being able to cope in different situations. So I bet you guys would just find a way through it and it will be another incredible story at the end of the day. Dean: I think the world needs it. As controversial as the Olympics were, I think it was an amazing thing, and it's so scaled back, right? But still, people are stuck in their house and now, what are they doing? They're watching the Olympics. They're getting energised, and they're thinking about the future so yeah, thank you. It's been a very emotional journey for me to leave a place... Where I live in California, we're over 80% vaccinated. So to leave a place where there was no masks then come here, it's been eye-opening and challenging. Lisa: You should have Pat go to you and run around California. You got it backwards. I have no doubt that you guys will just find a way through, and you'll make it epic, anyway. Say you get given lemons, you make lemonade. Dean: Yeah well, at least we're staying in military barracks, and we're basically running. Every day, we're staying in the same place so logistically, it'll be easier. Lisa: Yeah. Oh my god, you guys just don't stop. I admire you guys so much, and I was saying to you last year, when we're in the Gold Coast, 'I've hit the wall at about 48 but to be honest, I had a pretty hit on, full-on war with my body and....' But you guys just seem to keep going, and going, and going. I had Mum as well so I did have an excuse, guys. But pretty highly, it was a stressful last five years. But you just seem to... Because how old are you now, Dean, if you don't mind sharing? Dean: Yeah. Well, when anyone would ask my age, I would say, 'Are you talking about my chronological age or my biological age?' Lisa: Well, your chronological because biological, you're probably 20 years younger. Because I definitely am. That's my take on it. Dean: Chronologically I'm closer to 60 than 50. Lisa: Exactly. Have you actually ever had your biological age done? Because that's an interesting thing. Dean: Yeah, I had a couple. There's a lot of good ways you can test it, and I've had it done a couple different times. One, I was about I was in my late 30s. And then on another, I was older than my actual chronological age. Lisa: Which one was that? Dean: It was post ultramarathon. So after racing, we spoke about C-reactive protein earlier and inflammation. And that was one of the biomarkers that they used in calculating your biological age. So when I looked at the results, I said, 'Hold it. How did you arrive at that figure?' And they gave me all the markers they looked at, and I said, 'Well, look. This is wildly elevated because just four days ago, I just ran a hundred miles.' Lisa: Exactly. And C-reactive protein, if you've just had a cold, if you've just hit like we were talking about my dad before and sepsis and his C-reactive protein was just through the roof. So that makes sense that they would be out. There's a whole clock, which is the methylation markers, which is a very good one. I've done just one very basic one that came out at 34. I was pretty pleased with that one. At the end of the day, I think if you can keep all your inflammatory markers like your homocysteine and C-reactive protein generally under control, keep your albumin levels high, they are pretty good markers. Albumin is one that is looking at, it's a protein that your liver makes, and that's a very important one. And if you albumin starts to go too low, that's one sign that things aren't going to good. So keep an eye on all those. I love studying all this longevity stuff because I plan to live to 150 at least, and I don't think that that's unrealistic now as long as I don't get run over by a bus or something. With the stuff that's coming online and the technology that's coming, we're going to be able to turn back the clock on some pretty advanced stuff already. Now, my mum's on more than me because obviously, her needs are a bit greater than mine. I can't afford for us to be on all the top stuff. But yeah, I'm very excited. We don't need to age like our grandparents have aged. We're gonna have... And someone like you, Dean, who's lived a good healthy life, apart from pushing the hell out of your body, and I'll talk about that in a sec, but I think you've got the potential to live to 150, especially because you're Greek. You come from stock. Dean: And my mom is from one of the Blue Zones. An island called Ikaria and I've been there and I've met... Ikaria, the island she's from, has the highest concentration of centenarians anywhere on Earth. Lisa: Oh my gosh. So you're going to live to 200 then. Dean: Well, the beautiful thing about these people is that not only are they over 100, they still have a high quality of life. They're still mobile; they're self-sufficient. Mentally and cognitively, they're sharp as a tack. They're active. The one thing that they have that we don't have the luxury of is the complete absence of stress. They don't pay attention to time. Lisa: That's, I think, a crucial point. Stress is a killer in so, so many ways. Dean: Even the fact that we have mortgages, and we have payments, rent, all those sort of things, I think, contribute to obviously, to stress. And fitting in with new society. It's much more of a sense of community in these villages where everyone is part of it. They all take care of each other, so it's a different lifestyle. Lisa: I think, definitely when you're actually living the old way of being out in the sunshine, from the time you get up to the end of the day, you're working outside and on the ground, in the land, hands in the dirt, all of that sort of stuff really... Because I studied lots about circadian rhythms and how our eyes, for example, you see sunshine early in the morning. That resets your circadian rhythms, sets the clock going for the day. Your adenosine starts to build up over the day. You get tired at about 14 to 16 hours later. All of these things that we've... as modern-day humans, we've taken ourselves out of the old way of living and put ourselves into this artificial comfortable environment. But this is upsetting all our ancient DNA, and that's why that's leading to problems. And then, of course, we've got this crazy life with technology, and the stuff we have to do, and work. Just like stress, what it does to the gut, the actual microbiota in the gut, and how much it affects your gut health. And of course, gut health affects everything. Your brain and your gut talk all the time. All these stuff so I think if we can harness the cool stuff of the technology coming, plus go back and start respecting as much as possible our ancient DNA, and then eating our ancestors did as best we can with these depleted soils, and pesticides, and glyphosates, and God knows what's in the environment, but doing the best we can, then we've got a good chance of actually staying around on this planet and still be running ultramarathons or at least marathons when you're a hundred plus. I don't think that that's unrealistic anymore, and that excites me. So I'm always learning on that front. Dean: But I want to be that guy that's running a marathon when you say a hundred. That's my ambition now. Lisa: I'll keep you up on the latest stuff then. What you need to be aware of. Dean: I don't have any... People say, ‘You must have arthritis, or back pain, or knee pain, or joint pain.' I don't have any of those things. I don't know why but I just... I'm so happy. I get up every morning and feel fresh. Lisa: That's absolutely amazing. I think one of the amazing things with you is that... Because I studied genetics, and I looked at my genes. And actually doing really long bouts of exercise with my combination of genetics and my cardiovascular system, especially I've got a very weak glycocalyx, which is the lining of your endothelial cells. Bear with me people. This means that if I do a lot of oxidative damage, which you do, of course, when you're running, that's pretty damaging to my lining of my blood vessel. So I've got to be a little more careful and take a lot of antioxidant support. But having that inflammation means I can now take steps to mitigate that so that I can still do what I love to do. And that's really key. It's hitting stuff off at the pass and there's so much we can do now and that's really, really exciting. But I've gone completely off topic because we should be talking about your book. Dean: No, I think it's very relevant because I think that some people are built to run far and slow and other people are built to run quick and short. Lisa: Yeah. I do and I agree and it's not just about your fast-twitch fibres. It is also about your methylation and your detox pathways, your hormonal pathways, your cardiovascular genes. All of these things do play a role, and that's why there's no one size fits all. And that's why we don't all have to be Dean Karnazes or Pat Farmer. You know what I mean? Not everybody is built for that or should be doing that, and that's okay as well. And working out what is optimal for your health is the key thing. Having role models like you guys is just mind-blowing because it does lift your perception of what the human body is capable of. That leads the way for others, and to follow, and to test out their personal limits. I think that's important too. Dean: Well, I've run over 300 traditional marathons. And you go to the Boston Marathon, you go to these big marquee marathons, the New York City Marathon, and you see people in their 70s and 80s that, compared to their peers, are off the charts. You say, 'Well, that running is gonna be bad for you.' I don't subscribe to that. Lisa: I've done what, 70-odd thousand K's. Not as much as you have. And I don't have any knee pain. I don't have any back pain because I keep my core strong and that's despite having accidents with my back and having no discs. Because I keep myself fit and healthy. I have had some issues with hormones and kidney function because when we... You would have been rhabdomyolysis, no doubt a few times. Dean: Minor, minor, but I have. Yeah. Every ultra runner has, yeah. Lisa: Yeah, so things that. You've got to just keep an eye on and make sure you don't... You look after your kidneys otherwise and do things to mitigate the damage. Because yeah there are certain things that damage. But life damages you. Like living, breathing is damaging. It's causing oxidative stress. So you've got to weigh up the pros and cons, but having an active physical life outdoors, and having adventures, and being curious and excited, and being involved in the world, that's got to be beneficial for you. So when do you actually start with this big adventure with Pat? Dean: It's on the 14th of August, so in about a week. Yep. They finish on the 24th, yeah. Lisa: Oh, I'd like to get you both back on at the end of it to give me a rundown, have a go. That will be cool. Dean, let's just pivot now and let's talk a little bit about your book. Because you brought out some incredible books over the years. You're world-famous. You're a New York Times bestselling author. You've been named by the Times magazine as one of the most hundred influential people of the world. That's just insane. And now, you're brought out Runner's High. What's different about this story? Dean: Well, my first book was Ultramarathon Man, and that was kind of a coming-of-age book. It was about me learning about this crazy universe of ultramarathon and people doing things that I thought was impossible. And Runner's High is five books later and three decades later. How am I still doing it? And how have I changed? How has the sport of ultramarathoning changed? How has the world changed? And that was the book. And it was also a very personal book and that... You're an ultramarathoner, and you know ultramarathon is an island. If you start running these long distances it impacts everyone in your life including your family. Very much for your family. The book, it is not really about running. It's funny. People read it and they say, 'Wow. It's amazing but it's storytelling.' And you and I are both good storytellers, and that was what I just set out to write a book that was true and honest, and it was enjoyable for the reader. And yeah, it's doing really well in New Zealand, actually. Lisa: It must be doing well around the world. And this one is very... It's really real, and genuine, and raw. No holds barred. No barred... What do you call it? No... How do you say that? It's very much a real and it's a love letter to, basically, like you say, to running. And you're actually revisiting the Western States, a race that you've done how many times? 13 times or something? But coming back in your 50s, late 50s to do this again in 2018. It was a bit of a tough road, shall we say. Can you tell us a little bit about that part of the journey and why Western States are so special to you? Dean: Yeah. The Western States 100 mile endurance run is in the Sierra Nevada, California. And it was the first 100-mile trail race, and I first did it back in 1994. So your first is always your best. It's kind of this amazing experience that you have, and you just never forget it. I can recall literally conversations I had in that race in 1994. I can recall what people were wearing. I can recall where I saw my parent. I recall it. It gets impressed upon your mind. So my synapses just absorbed it. So going back here after 13 goes at it and thinking, 'Wow, is this going to be a stale experience? Or what is it going to be like?' And it ended up being quite magical and quite transformative in my career as well as... I learned a lot about my father and my son, and I wrote a lot about that in the book, and watching them crew for me, and how things have changed over time. It wasn't a good race. I don't want to be a spoiler but I think good races don't make good stories. Good races, you pop the champagne, yeah, it's boring. You high five at the finish, you have some champagne, and all this good. When things go to shit, that's an interesting story. Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. I've got three books full of things turning to shit. And I think it's beautiful that you talk about your dad or what a crazy guy he is, and your son coming and how your son was actually... Like you didn't know whether he was up to crewing for you really because he's a young man. He wasn't going to take this seriously because you need your crew to be on form. How do he actually do when he was out there? Dean: Yeah. There's a saying that in school, you get the lesson and you take the test. In parenting, you take the test and then you get the lesson. You're just like, 'Boy I screwed that one up.' You lose track of your kids, especially when they go off to uni. Lisa: Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody and we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's patron.lisatamati.com. We have two patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as 7 dollars a month, New Zealand, or 15 dollars a month if you really want to support us. We are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us: everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries, and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com. And thanks very much for joining us. Dean: As a parent, your kids grew up quicker than you adjust to them growing up, and I always treat them as a guy that needs his diaper change kind of thing even though he's 20 years old now. Nick was just such a dichotomous individual because he complained to me when he came home from uni that his roommates were such slobs. I said, 'How do you like living with three other guys?' He's like, 'It's great. They're my best friends, but they're such slobs.' Every every time I walked past his room, I'd look in his room, and it was a Tasmanian devil had gone through it. ‘Your room is such a mess.' When he volunteered the crew for me at Western States, claiming he knew how to do it, even though the last time he'd done it, he was nine years old, and he didn't do anything. At this time, he was actually driving a vehicle. He was the most important support I had during this kind of foot race. And I just thought that it was gonna be a horrible experience. That he'd be irresponsible, he wouldn't show up, and this, and that. At least it was just the opposite. He was the most responsible, so much more responsible than my dad. So much more capable. My dad's been doing this for 30 years, and my son who's never done it was so much better than my dad. He showed me a new side of him that I'd never seen. Lisa: That's him growing up, I suppose? Dean: Yeah. I think every parent that's got a kid is kind of nodding their head as they're hearing this because they can relate. Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think kids, sometimes when they can be a kid, they'll be a kid. They'll be the irresponsible... But when you actually put them on the spot and expect something from them, sometimes, they come to the party if you're lucky, and actually step up to the line, and actually do a good job, and obviously, Nicholas did that. Dean: Yeah. I think it's more the burden of the parent to accept and to realise that this little baby is self-sufficient and capable. Let go of the fact that they once were so dependent on you. They're not anymore. They have their own life, and they can navigate their way through the world. Lisa: It must be pretty hard to let go. What do you think it's been like for them having such a famous, crazy, extreme athlete dad? Was it hard for both of them? Because I can imagine you were away a lot. You're doing dangerous, crazy, amazing things. Everybody knows you. You're extremely well known when you go anywhere. How did that affect the family in general? Dean: It's funny. My kids have never known me as anything different. They've always known me as this ultramarathoner, and it's always been a family affair for me. My kids, they've been to Australia, they've been to Europe multiple times, South America, all over North America. I have taken them with me. I once ran 50 marathons in all of the 50 US states in 50 days, and they were along. Yeah. How many kids... My son was nine, my daughter was 11. How many kids ever, how many people ever get to see all of the states of America, let alone when you're that age? So I think that they just accept me for what I am. Sometimes I get the fan thing where people come up to me like at a restaurant. Like, 'Oh, can you sign this or that?' And it's always good people. The people that come up to me in an airport and say, 'Hey, I really admire you. Can we do a selfie?' They're decent people. Like I want to go have a glass of wine with this guy or this lady. It's not like I'm a rock star or movie star where I have all the crazy people chasing around. The people who chase me around are my peers. People I really admire myself. Lisa: Or other runners. You know what? Something I've always admired about you, too, was that you always gave every single person time of day despite... And when we did that speaking gig together last year on the Gold Coast, I was really nervous, to be honest, because I was like, 'I'm on the stage with someone who is a superstar, and I'm little me.' Right? I'm sort of like, 'How the hell am I on stage with you? Because no one's gonna be interested in what the hell I've got to say when you're standing next to...' It's like some superstar, and you're standing on the stage with them, and you've got to do... It was quite difficult in a way because everybody wanted to... The line for your books was just two hours long. The line from mine was two people long. Dean: You carried yourself beautifully. I thought together, we were a great pair. We complemented each other. Lisa: You are a gentleman. You would always straight to me and make sure that I was included, which was fantastic. I saw you. Like you take the time for every single person. You are present with everybody, and that's a really hard thing to do. It's not so hard in a book signing, but it's bloody hard in the middle of a hundred-miler or a hundred K-er or when you were half-dead, dragging yourself into a checkpoint, and somebody wants a signature from you or a selfie, and you're trying to just get your stuff together. I found that difficult on my level of stuff. Because when I enter in New Zealand, I found that really difficult. I'd have people coming out on the road with me all the way through. And in that preparation, I thought that would be cool. In the reality of the day-to-day grind, did you know when you're... Because I was running up to 70K's a day. I was in a world of pain and hurt most of the time, and just struggling to keep going, and very, very breakable, you feel like. And then, you'd have people coming out and now it's been maybe 2, 3, 4 or 5K's with you, and they're full of beans, and they want you to be full of beans and full of energy, and give them the greatest advice in their 5K's when you're half dead. I found that really, really hard because I'm actually, believe it or not, quite introverted and when I'm running, I go in. How do you deal with it? How do you deal with that without being... Because you don't want to be rude. You don't want to be disrespectful to anybody, God forbid. But there were times on that run when I just literally had to say to my crew, 'I can't cope right now. I'm in a world of pain. I need some space.' And they have to sort of politely say, 'Sorry, she's not in a good space.' How do you deal with that? Dean: Well, it's amazing that we're having this conversation because there are not a lot of people that can relate intimately to what you just said. Because most people will never be in that position but what.. I experienced exactly you've experienced. When running 50 marathons in 50 days or running, I ran across America as well. When you're in a world of hurt, you've got this protective shell on, and you don't want to be social, and then I'd have groups of college kids show up with my book. Like 'Oh my god. Karnazes, you're such a great influence, and we love your book.' And 'Let's order a pizza.' I just feel like I just want to crawl into a mummy bag and hide and you just got to turn it on. Lisa: You've got to step up fine. Dean: Yeah, they're so happy to see you, and they want to see you on. They don't want to see you like this groveler just dying. They want to see you strong and engaging, and it's really tough sometimes. Yeah. It's definitely really tough sometimes. Lisa: Yeah, and that's why I admire that you managed to do that most of the time. You turn it on no matter in what shape you were. If I were to pull it out whereas, to be honest, a couple of times, I just couldn't. I'm just like, 'I'm done guys.' Remember on the run through New Zealand that one time? This was not with fans. I was running for CanTeen, the kids with cancer. I was in an immeasurable world of hurt one night after running for, God knows how long I've been out there, 1200 K's or something at the stage. I had a 13-year-old boy was sent into my room to give me a pep talk. He was dying of cancer or had cancer, and he was here to give me a pep talk because I was crying. I wasn't able to get up and run the next day. And he came in and told me how much it meant to him, and to his peers, and what it meant to him that I was undertaking this journey. That was a real lesson. Like, 'Oh, get over yourself. You're not dying, okay? You're not a 13 year old with cancer. You just have to run another 70 K's tomorrow. So what?' That's a good perspective. I did get up the next morning and go again and that was like, 'Here, come on.' Some funny but really touching moments. You are human and it's very easy when you go to a speaking engagement or whatever to be what you meant to be, a professional. But it's bloody hard when the chips are down and you're in the middle of a race to do that. So I really always did admire that about you. What I also admired was that it didn't matter whether you came first or last in a race. With the Western States, it was a struggle. You never shied away from the fact that today might not have been your day, and you're having a bad day, and you weren't embarrassed about that. I've had races with Pat Farmers, a classic one in the middle of the Big Red Run where I was just falling to pieces. I was going through some personal trauma at the time, and my back went out. Yeah, I was just at a bad place. And I was embarrassed because I failed at a race at that stage. I was in that mindset. Now, I look back and go 'Give yourself a break.' How do you cope with that? How do you... Like when you don't do what the fans expect you to do on that day? Dean: To me, it's your ego. Yeah, it is such an ego thing. And let's be honest, when you're a public figure, your failures are public. You don't fail in silence. You just kind of DNF and walk away and live the race another day. You DNF and people are taking pictures of you, and it's on the internet. I always got crowded. But in the end, I just... What can you do other than just do your best? You're human. All of us can only just do our best. So my commitment now is like, ‘When I stand on the starting line, I'm going to give it my all. I'm not going to leave anything on this course. I'm just going to be the best that Dean can be. I'm going to try my hardest and the only way I'm going to fail is if I don't try my hardest and don't give it my all.' And when you go with that mindset, no matter what happens, you're doing yourself a service. Lisa: Yeah, and you're a winner. This is such a powerful message, I think, for young people listening because often, we don't even try because we don't want to risk embarrassing ourselves, and risk failure, and risk looking like an idiot. And what you're saying is just forget your ego, set that to the side, and go, 'I'm going to give it all today, and if it isn't enough, it isn't enough and that's fine. I'll learn something out of it. And it's a journey that I'm on. And I'm going to be the best I can be today.' That's such a powerful story of perspective, and resilience, and leaving the ego at the door. I did struggle with that when I was younger because I had some pretty spectacular failures, and they really hurt. They really hurt where you take a long time to sort of go, 'Do I want to do that again in the public eye?' So to speak. And you've just always just been 'If it was a good day, it was a good day, and on to the next one if it was a bad day.' Dean: Yeah, I think bold failures build character. I have to be honest. Success builds character, but so does failure and in a more profound way. I lean into every emotion that I have. Either success or failure, sorrow or regret. All those things that happen when you have a bad race or a bad day. I want that full emotional range. It just makes you a better human, I think. Not to shy away from those deep lows where you're just crushed. I think that people that try to avoid that are really missing out. Yeah, yeah, it's painful and it hurts but it builds your character in a profound way. Lisa: Wow. That is so deep, actually. Because we're often taught push down your emotions, and keep them in a box, and be a professional, and keep going, and keep calm and carry on type thing. And it has its place as far as when you're in the middle of a race, you've got to keep your shit together, and compartmentalise stuff, and be able to function. But I think it's also very important to experience the pain, the grief, the pain, or whatever you're going through, and the happiness. It's another thing. I would get to the end of a race and it didn't matter how well I'd done, and what I've just achieved, and how difficult it was. I remember doing one in the Himalayas and a friend coming up to me afterwards and it was 220K race, extreme altitude, hell of a journey to get there, all sorts of obstacles. I get to the finish line and he's just like, 'Wow, you're amazing. It's incredible. I can't believe what you just did. If I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't have believed it.' And I just went, 'Oh no. Someone else was faster, and there's a longer race.' You know what I mean? And I didn't integrate it. And he just went, 'Oh, for crying out loud. Can't you just take this one to the bank and actually bank it as being a success and a huge win?' And I really took that to heart. And now, I pat myself on the back when I do even a little thing good because it reinforces that neural pathway in my brain that tells me, 'This was great because I just got a little reward' rather than, 'You're never good enough.' Because that was what I was telling myself before. No matter what I did, it wasn't enough. And now, flip that script around to go, 'Hey, you managed to do your shoelaces and get to the end of the road today. Well, done.' And it's the thought of it. Dean: It is, completely. My son said something to me that was along that same vein during the Western States. I said, ‘Nicholas…' This is maybe a mile 60 or 70 of a hundred-mile run. I said, 'My race is crap. I'm not having a good race.' And he looked at me, said, 'Dad, you're running a hundred miles. To most people, that's enough.' And I put it in perspective. That although I'm with all these super elite athletes, you're not doing that... To most people that hear about anyone running a hundred miles, they don't care if you came in first or last. A hundred miles? They don't care if my time was 15 hours or 50 hours. They're just so inspired. Yeah, blown away by it. Yeah. Lisa: Exactly, And I think that puts it because when we hang out... Because you are the sum total of the people that you hang out with, the top five, as the saying goes. And that can have negative connotations as well as positive. It can be the fact that you think if you're hanging out with the five top guys in the world, then you are going to be not looking too good. But if you're hanging out with just the average person, and you're doing something this long and this incredible, for most people, that's just like, 'Huh? Humans can do that?' I did a speaking engagement yesterday in Auckland and the people were like, 'But that's humanly impossible.' I go, 'It actually isn't, and there's actually thousands of us that do the stuff.' And then, they're like, 'What? I don't get it.' Dean: That was it. That was the same reaction I had when I heard about someone running a hundred mile like that. They're, 'Oh, there's trickery.' I thought there's trickery. I thought there's hotels, or just campgrounds, or something. The guy said, 'The gun goes off and you just run, and you stop when you cross the finish line.' I couldn't wrap my head around it. Lisa: Until you did it. Dean: Until you did it. Exactly, yeah. Lisa: And you built yourself up to it, and this is the thing. It's a combination of so much and it's that journey isn't it? So I think what we're talking about is it being this incredible life journey that you go on within an ultramarathon and within the training of our ultramarathon. It's like living an entire life in short. You're going through the highs, and the lows, and everything in between. And it's long, and it's hard, and it's awesome, and it's amazing, and you meet incredible people. It's everything that you go through in life but just on an intensive timescale, I feel like. And it's just a beautiful experience to go through, especially with the value of hindsight. Sometimes, in the middle of it, mile 70 of a hundred-mile race, it's not looking too flash. Dean: Well, but I mean, to that point, when we reflect back on moments that we remember, at least me, it's not the victories. It's not the crossing the finish line first to me. It's always that time where I thought, 'I'm done. This is it. I can't get out of this chair. I'm trashed.' And somehow getting through that really, really tough moment and carrying on. That's what sticks with you. It's pretty weird, at least with me. Those are the moments that reflect back on my career. It's those horrible moments that I somehow persisted. Lisa: When you look back, you're proud of yourself and you know that when... One of the biggest values, and I've seen this with my story with Mum and, unfortunately, recently with my dad, is that when the shit hits the fan, like it did in those two situations, I knew that I could step up to do everything within my power and that I was a fighter. I knew that I was a fighter, and then I knew that I would fight to the bitter end, whatever the outcome was. And that's a really good thing to know about yourself. Because you need to know that when things are down, what character do you have? Who are you when all the niceties of our world have gone? What are you capable of? And you learn to be able to function when everyone else is gone. And that's a really powerful lesson that ultramarathoning teaches you, I think, in decades of the sort of hard work. And that's why athletes, I think... When you're employing athletes or you going into business with other athletes, you're more likely to have someone who's willing to fight through the tough times than if you just get someone who hasn't ever experienced any sort of discomfort in their life. Then they're not liable to be able to push through and be as resilient. I think that's what I'm trying to say. Dean: I agree with you completely. And I often wonder if people have those character, those values, and that's what draws them to ultra running or if ultrarunning instils those values. I remember coming home from a run one time, and my neighbour was fetching up the morning paper. He saw me running back to my house and I'd, I don't know, I'd run 30 or 40 kilometres, and he said to me, 'Doesn't running hurt?' And I said to him, 'It doesn't if you're doing it right.' And he looked at me, 'I do everything to avoid difficult things.' And I'm like, ‘And I embrace it.' It's just a different mindset. Lisa: And if you have the mindset of wanting to always avoid all sorts of pain in life, then you're not going to experience very much. And when you're in a tough situation, you won't be able to cope because you won't have experienced any sort of pain. So the more that you had to struggle, the more strength you develop from that. The old proverb: 'Strength comes from struggle' is valid in all walks of life. So unfortunately, this is the way the world is set up. If you seek comfort all the time, you're actually going to be in deeper shit somewhere along the way and not able to help yourself because you haven't learned to fight, and you haven't learned to push through and to deal with a certain level of discomfort and a certain level of pain. And I think that's a really, really valuable thing to do. Every day, I try to experience some sort of discomfort or pain: whether it's cold, whether it's pushing myself mentally, intellectually, whether it's pushing myself physically, doing some intense extreme exercise, or whatever the case may be. Every day, I try to do something that it scares the shit out of me or pushes me in some way because then, I know that I haven't gone backwards that day. I've probably learned something, and gone forward, and I've strengthened my body and my mind in some sort of way, shape, or form. Dean: Yeah, but I think you're an exception. I think most people just try to take the path of least resistance and avoid difficult things and avoid pain. I think we've built our world around comfort: having every comfort available and removing as much discomfort and pain as we can. And I think, in a way, we're so comfortable, we're miserable. Lisa: Exactly. That's exactly the problem. Because by actually experiencing a little bit of pain, by doing your push-ups, going for your run, doing your pull-ups, whatever the case is, being outside and digging the garden and doing stuff that is a bit unpleasant, it actually makes your body stronger, and it makes you mentally stronger. If we all sit on the couch and watch Netflix all day every day and eat chips, what's going to happen to us? We're going to destroy our health. We're going to just be so... And this is... I think I'm scared for the younger generation, that they haven't actually... We grew up. We're roughly the same age. You're a couple years older. I grew up in the 70's where we were outside, doing something all day, every day. We came in at night time for a feed and went to bed. That was our childhood, and that was just a beautiful way to grow up. We were cold. We were hungry. We were tired. We were happy. Dean: We were playing, right? We were exercising. I remember riding my bike just everywhere. I never thought of it as exercise. It was playing. Kids don't play that way anymore, unfortunately. Lisa: It's a scary thing for them because we need to teach them. Because again, it goes back to sort of respecting our ancient DNA and that's what I think... That's another thing that ultramarathoning does, or even trekking, or adventuring in any sort of way, shape, or form. It's that we've come from stock that used to have to build their own houses, cut down their own trees, chase animals, whatever the case was, just to survive. And then, we now have it all laid on for us. We're in lovely houses. We've got light all day or night. We've got food every street corner. And our ancient DNA isn't just set up for that. This is where all the problems come. We could go on a complete rant, which I often do on this podcast. But coming back to your story in your Runner's High, what do you think now looking back at this incredibly long and prolific career and this incredible journey that you've been on so far, and I do think that you still got miles and miles to go. What are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned along the way on the thirty-odd year journey that you've been? What are the biggest takeaways from ultramarathon running? Dean: I think that it's the little moments that are the most priceless. It's not the moments where... I write about meeting with First Lady Michelle Obama. Yeah, that was great. It was amazing, and incredible, and everything else, but it's the little moments of having a moment with a crew member or your family that you just you reflect on and laugh about. So it's those things to me that are most priceless. The other thing with ultramarathoning that I've certainly learned is that it's a journey. To me, it's a passion and it's something I've committed my life to. And staying true to the person you are, there's value in that. Even though it's just running, Lisa. It's nothing hugely intellectual. I'm not winning Nobel prizes. I'm just a runner, but that's who I am and I'm staying true to that. I'm going to do that to the grave. And I think in that, there's a simplicity and I think there's some magic in that. Lisa: Oh, absolutely. You know what you're born to do. You say it's only running but actually, you're a teacher; you're an author; you're a person who empowers others. You're doing all of that in the framework of running. So you do a heck of a lot more than just running for me. You've influenced an entire generation worldwide. I hope you know. Without you, ultramarathon running would not be where it is today. So I think you know a little bit more than just running yourself. This is the power of books, and this is the power of storytelling. And it's the power of having such a unique character that is so charismatic and draws people in. And those are all the things that you've managed to take. You could have just been a silent runner who just did his thing and went away again, but you've chosen to share your journey with the world. And that's just gold because that just gives people an insight into what they can do. It's all about... when I read your books, I'm getting something for me. And everybody who's reading those books, that's actually, 'Yes, we talk. We're hearing Dean's story.' But we're actually going, 'Huh. Maybe I could do that. Maybe I could try that. Oh, yeah I've experienced that.' This is the conversation that are going on in people's heads when they read those stories, and that's why they have such an intimate connection with you. And why, even though it's weird when people come up and ask you for an autograph or any of that, they feel like they know you, and they do know you. Dean: I've got a message from a guy. Yeah, I know. Every time I think, 'Wow, this is really laborious, writing these books. And maybe it's my last book.' I got a message from a guy a couple days ago and he said, 'I was planning on reading a couple chapters of your new book before I went to bed.' And he said five hours later, 'I finished the last page.' And then, he said, 'And then I got up. I just had to go running.' Wow. Then the book worked if it motivated him to read the whole thing in one sitting and get up and go running, then it's worthwhile. Lisa: Absolutely. And you know when you read, I read books ferociously, and the list is long. I'm usually reading about 10 books at a time. And when I'm reading, I am distilling the world's top people and their entire experience, I get to absorb within the space of 10, 15 hours of reading their book. That's a good return on investment. If I want to download someone's experience, or knowledge, or whatever the case is, then reading books is just such a powerful way to do it and listening to podcasts as well. Because that's another way that you can do it without having to... You can be out and about, driving, or running, or whatever and absorbing some new information. And I think we're just so lucky to have access to all of this. It's just incredible. Dean: It is and it's a pity if you don't take advantage of that because you're so wise and educated. That conversation we had before the podcast, it's amazing how... It's amazing. Your knowledge base and how you developed your knowledge base. Well, you've absorbed the best of the best and what they're thinking and the research they've done. Lisa: Exactly. All you're doing is you're absorbing it from the best scientists, the best doctors, the best athletes, the best executives, the best business people, and then, you get to share it, teach it. This is the other thing. If I learn something in the morning, I'm teaching it in the afternoon. Usually it's to my poor husband or my mother. I'm teaching it and then, I often build into my programs, or it comes out in my webinars, or whatever. And you're basically just regurgitating stuff that you've learned, but it's powerful when you put it into the perspective of your experience and you change it. You learn it, you teach it. You learn it, you teach it. And that's a such a cool way to share, and get that information out there into the world, and actually help the world on your little corner of the earth and what you're doing. And that's what I love to do and that's the power of what your books are all about. So yeah, I commiserate with you. Getting a book out is a bloody long, hard journey. People don't realise how hard it is to write a book. Give me a bloody hundred miler any day over writing a book. In fact, give me ten hundred milers over any day because it's such a long process, isn't it? Dean: Well, I do a lot of my writing while I'm running actually. So I dictate into my phone now. Because we have some of our clearest thoughts while we're running. Before, I used to think, 'God, why didn't I write that down? How did that go again?' Now, I just dictate as I'm running and then come home, put in an earbud, and just type up my notes. Lisa: I haven't done variations of that. I do end up stopping on my runs and just writing a quick note. I haven't actually dictated. I have to start adapting that because maybe that'll make it easy because you're damn right. When I'm actually at the computer, there's distractions. There's a hundred windows open; there's notifications coming all the time, and I really find it hard to sit down and write. It is sometimes best if you could just dictate into something, so I'll have to give that a crack next time. Dean: I think motion stirs emotion. Lisa: Yeah, it does and it clears the mind. That's one thing I miss now that I'm not doing the ultras, personally, at the moment. It's that singularity of purpose. That cleanness the mind had before of this one goal. And I'm watching my husband's preparing for a hundred miler in November. And just watching everything in his whole day, and he has the luxury of doing this because we haven't got kids and stuff, but everything in his whole day is centred around his training and getting to that hundr

How do you handle stressful situations? Everyone's built a little different — some people can take their hits on the chin and come out smiling. But not everyone can take those hits. The pandemic has taken its mental toll on so many people. Others might still be struggling with past traumas and dealing with anxiety. Their situation keeps them in a state of constant worry and hypervigilance. That state of mind doesn't only harm their mental and emotional health — it can make them sick and more prone to physical diseases. More than ever, it's time to begin mental healing from past traumas, so we can better cope with our daily stresses.  Dr Don Wood joins us again in this episode to talk about the TIPP program and how it facilitates mental healing. He explains how our minds are affected by traumas and how these can affect our health and performance. If we want to become more relaxed, we need to learn how to go into the alpha brainwave state. Since mental healing is not an immediate process, Dr Don also shares some coping strategies we can use in our daily lives.  If you want to know more about how neuroscience can help you achieve mental healing, then this episode is for you.    Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn how trauma can put you in a constant state of survival and affect your performance and daily life.  Understand that it's not your fault. Achieving mental healing will require you to learn how to go into an alpha brainwave state.  Discover healthy habits that will keep you from entering survival mode.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  A new program, BOOSTCAMP, is coming this September at Peak Wellness! Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes:  #183: Sirtuin and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova  #199: How Unresolved Trauma Prevents You from Having a Healthy Life With Dr Don Wood Check out Dr Don Wood's books:  Emotional Concussions: Understanding How Our Nervous System is Affected By Events and Experiences Throughout Our Life You Must Be Out Of Your Mind: We All Need A Reboot   Connect with Dr Don Wood: Inspired Performance Institute I Facebook I LinkedIn     Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again. Still, I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. 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Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Episode Highlights [06:05] The Pandemic-Induced Mental Health Crisis The pandemic forced many people into a state of freeze mode, not the typical fight or flight response.  As people get out of freeze mode, there will be a rise in mental health issues.  Teenagers are robbed of the opportunity to develop social and communication skills during this time.  [08:24] How Dr Don Wood Started Studying Traumas Dr Don's wife grew up in a household with an angry father who instilled fear. He used to think that she would be less anxious when they started to live together, but she struggled with mental healing.  She had an inherent belief that misfortune always follows good things. Her traumas and fears also led to a lot of health issues.  She also was hyper-vigilant, which she used as a protective mechanism. However, this prevented her from being relaxed and happy. A person's environment can dictate whether they go into this hyper-vigilant state, but genetics can also play a factor.  [15:42] How Trauma Affects the Brain Trauma is caused by a dysregulation of the subconscious. If your brain is in survival mode, it will access data from the past and create physiological responses to them. These emotions demand action, even when it is no longer possible or necessary. This dysregulation prevents you from living in the present and initiating mental healing.  In this state, people can be triggered constantly, which interferes with their day-to-day life.  [21:07] The Role of the Subconscious Your conscious mind only takes up around 5%, while the subconscious takes up 95%. Your subconscious mind cannot tell the difference between real and imagined.  In survival mode, people will keep replaying the past and think about different scenarios and decisions.  You're left stuck because the subconscious mind only lives in the now. It does not have a concept of time.  This process is the brain trying to protect you. [25:04] What Happens When You're Always in Survival Mode Being in survival mode will take a physical toll since it's constantly activating the nervous system, increasing cortisol and adrenaline. When you're in this state, your body and mind cannot work on maintenance and recovery. It is more focused on escaping or fixing perceived threats. Over time, this will affect your immune system and make you sick.  To truly achieve mental healing, you need to get to the root cause of your problems.  However, you also have to develop coping strategies to manage your day-to-day activities.  [30:18] Changing Your Brainwave State Traumatic events are usually stored in a beta brainwave state. Changing your response to traumatic events starts with going into an alpha brainwave state.  The beta state is usually from 15 - 30 hertz, while the alpha is lower at 7 - 14 hertz. Anything below that is the delta state, usually when you're in deep meditation or sleep. People who have trouble sleeping are usually in that beta state, which keeps processing information.  It's only in the delta state that your mind and body start the maintenance phase. This phase helps not only with mental healing but also physical recovery.  Learn more about Lisa and Dr Don's personal experiences with these brainwave states in the full episode!  [34:30] Mental Healing and Physical Recovery Starts with the Brain Recovery is about genetics and the environment. In sleep, your mind will always want to deal with the threats first. It can only get to the delta state once it finishes processing these dangers. Your risk for developing sickness and depression rises if your brain can't do maintenance. Living in the beta state will make it difficult to focus.  [41:40] It's Not Your Fault If you have a lot of trauma, you are predisposed to respond in a certain way. It's not your fault.  There's nothing wrong with your mind; you just experienced different things from others.  Dr Don likened this situation to two phones having a different number of applications running.  Predictably, the device that runs more applications will have its battery drained faster.  [44:05] Change How You Respond Working on traumas requires changing the associative and repetitive memory, which repeats responses to threats. You cannot change a pattern and get mental healing immediately—it will take time.  That's the reason why Dr Don's program has a 30-day recovery phase dedicated to changing your response pattern.  Patterns form because the subconscious mind sees them as a beneficial way of coping with traumas.  This function of your subconscious is how addictions form.  [47:04] Why We Can Be Irrational The subconscious lives only in the present. It does not see the future nor the past.  It will want to take actions that will stop the pain, even if the actions are not rational.  At its core, addiction is all about trying to stop the pain or other traumatic experiences.  Survival mode always overrides reason and logic because its priority is to protect you. [50:57] What to Do When You're in Survival State In this survival state, we're prone to movement or shutting down completely.  The brain can stop calling for emotions to protect you, and this is how depression develops.  When in a depressed state, start moving to initiate mental healing. Exercise helps burn through cortisol and adrenaline.  Once your mind realises there's no action required for the perceived threats, the depression will lift.   [53:24] Simple Actions Can Help There's nothing wrong with you.  Don't just treat the symptom; go straight to the issue.  Don't blame genetics or hormonal imbalances for finding it hard to get mental healing. Find out why.  Also, seek things that will balance out your hormones. These can be as simple as walking in nature, taking a break, and self-care.  [56:04] How to Find a Calming Symbol Find a symbol that will help you go back into the alpha brainwave state.  Lisa shares that her symbol is the sunset or sunrise, and this helps her calm down. Meanwhile, Dr Don's are his home and the hawk.  Having a symbol communicates to all parts of your brain that you're safe.  [59:58] The Power of Breathing  Stress may lead to irregular breathing patterns and increase your cortisol levels and blood sugar. Breathing exercises, like box breathing, can also help you calm down because the brain will take higher oxygen levels as a state of safety.  If you're running out of oxygen, your brain will think you're still in danger.  Make sure that you're breathing well. It's also better to do nasal breathing.    7 Powerful Quotes ‘The purpose of an emotion is a call for an action. So the purpose of fear is to run.' ‘People who have a lot of trauma have trouble sleeping. Because not only is their mind processing what it experienced during the day, it's also taking some of those old files saying “Well, okay, let's fix that now. Right. Let's get that.”' ‘I was getting maximum restorative sleep. So an injury that I would have that could heal in two or three days, my teammates would two or three weeks. Because they were living in these, which I didn't know, a lot of my friends were dealing with trauma: physical, emotional, sexual abuse.' ‘There's nothing wrong with anybody's mind. Everybody's mind is fine except you are experiencing something different than I experienced so your mind kept responding to it, and mine didn't have that.' ‘That dysregulation of the nervous system. That's what we want to stop because that is what is going to affect health, enjoyment of life, and everything else.' ‘I talked about addiction as a code. I don't believe it's a disease. Your mind has found a resource to stop pains and your subconscious mind is literal. It doesn't see things as good or bad, or right or wrong.' ‘If there's a survival threat, survival will always override reason and logic because it's designed to protect you.'   About Dr Don Dr Don Wood, PhD, is the CEO of The Inspired Performance Institute. Fueled by his family's experiences, he developed the cutting-edge neuroscience approach, TIPP. The program has produced impressive results and benefited individuals all over the world.  Dr Wood has helped trauma survivors achieve mental healing from the Boston Marathon bombing attack and the Las Vegas shooting. He has also helped highly successful executives and world-class athletes. Marko Cheseto, a double amputee marathon runner, broke the world record after completing TIPP. Meanwhile, Chris Nikic worked with Dr Wood and made world news by becoming the first person with Down Syndrome to finish an Ironman competition. Interested in Dr Don's work? Check out The Inspired Performance Institute. You can also reach him on Facebook and LinkedIn.    Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can learn steps to mental healing. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Transcript Of Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.  Lisa Tamati: Hi, everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today, I have Dr Don Wood who, you may recognise that name if you listen to the podcast regularly. He was on the show maybe a couple of months ago, and he is the CEO and founder of The Inspired Performance Institute. He's a neuroscience guy, and he knows everything there is to know about dealing with trauma and how to get the mind back on track when you've been through big, horrible life events or some such thing. Now, when we talked last time, he shared with me his methodology, the work that he's done, how he can help people with things like addictions as well and depression, and just dealing with the stresses of life, whether they be small stressors or big stressors.  We got to talking about my situation and the stuff that I've been through in the last few years, which many of you listeners know, has been pretty traumatic. From losing babies, to losing my dad, to mom's journey. So I was very privileged and lucky to have Dr Don Wood actually invite me to do his program with him. We share today my stories, how I went with that, and he explains a little bit more in-depth the neuroscience behind it all and how it all works. So if you're someone who's dealing with stress, anxiety, PTSD, depression, if you want to understand how the brain works and how you can help yourself to deal with these sorts of things, then you must listen to the show. He's an absolutely lovely, wonderful person.  Now, before we get over to the show, I just love you all to do a couple of things for me. If you wouldn't mind doing a rating and review of the show on Apple, iTunes or wherever you listen to this, that would be fantastic. It helps the show get found. We also have a patron program, just a reminder if you want to check that out. Come and join the mission that we're on to bring this wonderful information to reach to people.  Also, we have our BOOSTCAMP program starting on the first of September 2021. If you listen to this later, we will be holding these on a regular basis so make sure you check it out. This is an eight-week live webinar series that my business partner, my best buddy, and longtime coach Neil Wagstaff and I will be running. It's more about upgrading your life and helping you perform better, helping you be your best that you can be, helping you understand your own biology, your own neuroscience, how your brain works, how your biology works. Lots of good information that's going to help you upgrade your life, live longer, be happier, reduce stress, and be able to deal with things when life is stressful. God knows we're all dealing with that. So I'd love you to come and check that out. You can go to peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp.  I also want to remind you to check us out on Instagram. I'm quite active on Instagram. I have a couple of accounts there. We have one for the podcast that we've just started. We need a few more followers please on there. Go to @pushingthelimits for that one on Instagram, and then my main account is @lisatamati, if you want to check that one out. If you are a running fan, check us out on Instagram @runninghotcoaching and we're on Facebook under all of those as well. So @lisatamati, @pushingthelimits, and @runninghotcoaching.  The last thing before we go over to Dr Don Wood, reminder check out, too, our longevity and anti-aging supplement. We've joined forces with Dr Elena Seranova and have NMN which is nicotinamide mononucleotide, and this is really some of that cooler stuff in the anti-aging, and longevity space. If you want to check out the science behind that, we have a couple of podcasts with her. Check those out and also head on over to nmnbio.nz. Right. Over to the show with Dr Don Wood.  Hi, everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today, I have a dear, dear friend again who's back on the show as a repeat offender, Dr Don Wood. Dr Don Wood: I didn't know I was a repeat offender. Oh, I'm in trouble. That's great.  Lisa: Repeat offender on the show. Dr Don, for those who don't know, was on the show. Dr Don is a trauma expert and a neuroscientist, and someone who understands how the brain works, and why we struggle with anxiety, and depression, and post-traumatic stress disorder. We did a deep dive last time, didn't we, into the program that you've developed. Since then, everyone, I have been through Dr Don's pro program. He kindly took me through it. Today, I want to unpack a little bit of my experiences on the other side, s the client, so to speak. Talk about what I went through.  Dr Don, so firstly, welcome to the show again. How's it all over in your neck of the woods? Dr Don: Well, it's awesome over here in Florida. COVID is basically non-existent. Oh, yeah. Well, in terms of the way people are treating it, that's for sure. Very few people you see in masks now, everything is pretty much wide open. You can't even get reservations at restaurants. It's unbelievable. The economy is exploding here. There's so much going on. Yeah, I know the rest of the country, a lot of different places are still struggling with whether they're going to put mask mandates back on and all this kind of stuff but Florida seems to be doing very well.  Lisa: Well, I'm very glad to hear that because any bit of good news in this scenario is good because this keeps coming and biting everybody in the bum.  Dr Don: I know. Especially down there. You guys are really experiencing quite severe lockdowns and things, right? Lisa: Yeah and Australia, more so. Australia has gone back into lockdown. I've got cousins in Sydney who are experiencing really hard times in Melbourne and we've stopped the trans-Tasman bubble at the moment. Trans-Tasman was open for business, so to speak, with Australians being able to come to New Zealand without quarantine, but it's been shut down again. So yeah, we're still struggling with it, and the economy is still struggling with it but actually, in our country, we've been very lucky that we've managed to keep it out because they've had such tight controls on the borders. But yes, it's a rocky road for everybody, and it's not over yet, I think. Dr Don: Looks like it's going to continue, and that's creating a lot of stress.  Lisa: Oh, yeah, perfect.  Dr Don: This is what I've said. I think we're coming up to a tsunami of mental health issues because a lot of people have gone into freeze mode as opposed to fight or flight. Some people are in fight or flight. You're hearing about that on airlines: people just losing it, and getting mad, and fighting with flight attendants and passengers, and you see a lot of that. But I think that's obviously not the majority. I think most people are in that mode of just get through this, do what they ask, don't cause any waves, and just get this over with. So that's a freeze mode, and I think when people come out of freeze, you're going to start to see some of these mental health issues.  Lisa: Yes, I totally agree and I'm very concerned about the young people. I think that being hit very hard especially in the places that have the hardest lockdowns. If you're going through puberty, or you're going through teenagehood, or even the younger kids, I think, they're going to be affected massively by this because it's going to be a big before and after sort of situation for them.  Dr Don: And just the social. When we were teenagers, social was everything, I suppose. Learning how to communicate, and talk, and get along with other people, and good and bad. There were always struggles in school with learning how to get along with everybody but that is just sort of squashed. It's going to be fascinating to see when they do a study on the real true results of this pandemic. It's going to be a lot different than many people think.  Lisa: Yes, and I think the longer you ignore stuff, is we're going to see it's not just the people are unfortunately dying and being very sick from the actual COVID, but the actual effects on society are going to be big. That's why talking about the topic that we're talking about today, dealing with anxiety, and dealing with stress, and being able to actually fix the problem instead of just managing the problem, which I know you're big on.  So let's dive in there, and let's recap a little bit. Just briefly go back over your story, how you got to here, and what your method sort of entails in a helicopter perspective. Dr Don: Yeah, basically how I developed this was really because of the life that my wife led first and my daughter. My wife grew up in a very traumatic household with a very angry father that created tremendous fear. So everybody was... Just constant tension in that household. When I met her, I just realised how this was so different than my life. My life was in the complete opposite: very nurturing, loving. So I didn't experience that. I thought when she started moving in and we got married at 19, we were very young, that this would all stop for her. Because now, she's living in my world, my environment, and it didn't.  She just kept continuing to feel this fear that something was going to go wrong and nothing is going to go right. She struggled with enjoying things that were going well. I would say to her, 'We've got three beautiful children. We've got a beautiful home. Everything's going pretty good; nothing's perfect. You have your ups and downs, but it's generally a pretty good life.' She couldn't enjoy that because as a child, whenever things were going okay, it would quickly end and it would end, sometimes violently. So the way she was protecting herself is don't get too excited when things are going well because you'll get this huge drop. So that was what she was doing to protect herself. I just had a lady come in here a couple months ago, who very famous athlete is her husband: millionaires, got fame, fortune, everything you want, but she had a lot of health issues because of trauma from her childhood. When I explained that to her, she said, 'That's me. Your wife is me. I should be enjoying this, and I can't get there. I want to. My husband can't understand it.' But that's really what was going on for her too. Lisa: So it's a protective mechanism, isn't it? To basically not get too relaxed and happy because you've got to be hyper-vigilant, and this is something that I've definitely struggled with my entire life. Not because I had a horrible childhood. I had a wonderful childhood but I was super sensitive. So from a genetic perspective, I'm super sensitive. I have a lot of adrenaline that makes me code for, for want of a better description, I'm very emotionally empathetic but it also makes me swung by emotional stimuli very much. So someone in my environment is unhappy, I am unhappy. I'm often anxious and upset. My mum telling me she took me to Bambi. You know the movie Bambi? From Disneyland? She had to take me out of theatre. I was in distraught.  That's basically me. Because Bambi's mother got killed, right? I couldn't handle that as a four-year-old, and I still can't handle things. Things like the news and stuff, I protect myself from that because I take everything on. It's even a problem and in our business service situations because I want to save the world. I very much take on my clients' issues. I'm still learning to shut gates afterwards, so to speak, when you're done working with someone so that you're not constantly... So there's a genetic component to this as well.  Dr Don: Absolutely. So yours was coming from a genetic side but that's very, very common amongst people who have had a traumatic childhood. They're super sensitive.  Lisa: Yes. Hyper-vigilant.  Dr Don: Hyper-vigilant. That was my wife. She was constantly looking for danger. We'd come out of the storage and go: 'Can you believe how rude that clerk was?' 'What do you mean she was rude? How was she rude?' ‘You see the way she answered that question when I asked that, and then the way she stuffed the clothes in the bag?' And I'm like, 'Wow.' I never saw her like that. She was looking for it because that's how she protected herself because she had to recognise when danger was coming. So it was protection, and I hadn't experienced that so that made no sense to me; it made perfect sense to her.  Lisa: Yeah, and if someone was rude to you, you would be just like, 'Well, that's their problem, not my problem, and I'm not taking it on.' Whereas for someone your wife and for me... I did have a dad who was  a real hard, tough man, like old-school tough. We were very much on tenterhooks so when they came home, whether he was in a good mood today or not in a good mood. He was a wonderful, loving father but there was that tension of wanting to please dad. Mum was very calm and stable, but Dad was sort of more volatile and just up and down. It was wonderful and fun and other times, you'd be gauging all of that before he even walked in the door. That just makes you very much hyper-vigilant to everything as well.  Then, you put on, on top of that, the genetic component. You've got things like your serotonin and your adrenaline. So I've got the problem with the adrenaline and a lack of dopamine. So I don't have dopamine receptors that stops me feeling satisfaction and... Well, not stops me but it limits my feeling of, 'Oh, I've done a good job today. I can relax.' Or of reward. And other people have problems, I don't have this one, but with a serotonin gene, which is they have dysregulation of their serotonin and that calm, and that sense of well-being and mood regulation is also up and down. While it's not a predisposition that you'll definitely going to have troubles because you can learn the tools to manage those neurotransmitters and things like nutrition and gut health and all that aspect. Because it's all a piece of that puzzle, but it's really just interesting, and it makes you much more understanding of people's differences.  Why does one person get completely overwhelmed in a very trivial situation versus someone else who could go into war and come back and they're fine? What is it that makes one person? Then you got the whole actual neuroscience circuitry stuff, which I find fascinating, what you do. Can you explain a little bit what goes on? Say let's just pick a traumatic experience: Someone's gone through some big major trauma. What is actually going on in the brain again? Can we explain this a little bit?  Dr Don: Yeah, this is one of the things that... When I did my research, I realised this is what's causing the dysregulation: is your subconscious your survival brain is fully present in the moment all the time. So everything in that part of our brain is operating in the present. which is what is supposed to be, right? They say that that's the key, that success and happiness is live in the present. Well, your survival brain does that. The problem comes in is that only humans store explicit details about events and experiences. So everything you've seen, heard, smelled, and touched in your lifetime has been recorded and stored in this tremendous memory system. Explicit memory.  Animals have procedural memory or associative memory. We have that memory system too. So we have both. They only have procedural, associative. So they learn through repetition, and they learn to associate you with safety and love, but they don't store the details about it. But we store all the details about these events and experiences. So this is where this glitch is coming in. If you've got the survival brain, which is 95% of everything that's going on, operating in the present, accessing data from something that happened 10 years ago because something looks like, sounds like, smells like it again, it's creating a response to something that's not happening. It's looking at old data and creating a physiological response to it, and the purpose of an emotion is a call for an action. So the purpose of fear is to run, to escape a threat. But there's no threat. It's just information about the threat. That disrupts your nervous system and then that creates a cascade of chemical reactions in your body because your mind thinks there's an action required. Lisa: This is at the crux of the whole system really, isn't it? This is this call for action to fix a problem that is in the past that cannot be fixed in the now. So if we can dive a little bit into my story, and I'm quite open on the show. I'm sharing the good, the bad, and the ugly. When I was working with Dr Don, I've been through a very, very traumatic few years really. Lost my dad, first and foremost, last July, which was the biggest trauma of my life. And it was a very difficult process that we went through before he died as well. And there's a lift, as you can imagine, my brain in a state of every night nightmares, fighting for his life, he's dying over, and over, and over, and over again.  Those memories are intruding into my daily life, whereas in anything and at any time, I could be triggered and be in a bawling state in the middle of the car park or the supermarket. Because something's triggered me that Dad liked to to buy or Dad, whatever the case was, and this was becoming... It's now a year after the event but everything was triggering me constantly. Of course, this is draining the life out of you and interfering with your ability to give focus to your business, to your family, to your friends, every other part of your life. I'd also been through the trauma of bringing Mum back from that mess of aneurysm that everyone knows about. The constant vigilance that is associated with bringing someone back and who is that far gone to where she is now, and the constant fear of her slipping backwards, and me missing something, especially in light of what I'd been through with my father. So I'd missed some things, obviously. That's why he ended up in that position and through his own choices as well.  But this load, and then losing a baby as well in the middle, baby Joseph. There was just a hell of a lot to deal with in the last five years. Then, put on top of it, this genetic combination of a hot mess you got sitting before you and you've got a whole lot of trauma to get through. So when we did the process, and I was very, super excited to do this process because it was so intrusive into my life, and I realised that I was slowly killing myself because I wasn't able to stop that process from taking over my life. I could function. I was highly functional. No one would know in a daily setting, but only because I've got enough tools to keep my shit together. so to speak. But behind closed doors, there's a lot of trauma going on.  So can you sort of, just in a high level, we don't want to go into the details. This is a four-hour program that I went through with Dr Don. What was going on there. and what did you actually help me with?  Dr Don: So when you're describing those things that were happening to you, what was actually happening to your mind is it was not okay with any of that. It wanted it to be different, right? So it was trying to get you into a state of action to stop your father from dying: Do it differently. Because it kept reviewing the data. It was almost looking at game tape from a game and saying 'Oh, had we maybe run the play that way, we would have avoided the tackle here.' So what your mind was saying 'Okay, run that way.' Well, you can't run that way. This is game tape. Right? But your mind doesn't see it as game tape. It sees it as real now, so it's run that way. So it keeps calling you into an action.  And especially with your dad because you were thinking about, 'Why didn't I do this?' Or 'Had I just done this, maybe this would have happened.' What your mind was saying is, 'Okay, let's do it. Let's do that.' What you just thought about. But you can't do that. It doesn't exist. It's information about something that happened but your mind sees it as real. That's why Hollywood have made trillions of dollars because they can convince you something on the screen is actually happening. That's why we cry in a movie or that's why we get scared in a movie. Because your mind, your subconscious mind cannot tell the difference between real or imagined. So that's actually happening.  You were just talking about the movie with Bambi, right? When you were little. 'Why is nobody stopping this from happening?' So your mind was not okay with a lot of these things that were happening, and it kept calling you to make a difference. That's what I never understood my wife doing. That before I really researched this, my wife would always be saying, 'Don't you wish this hadn't have happened?' Or 'Don't you wish we hadn't done this?' What I didn't understand at the time, because I used to just get like, 'Okay, whatever.' She'd go, 'Yeah, but wouldn't it have been better?' She wanted to get me into this play with her, this exercise. Lisa: This is going on in her head. Dr Don: Because it's going on in her head, and she's trying to feel better. So she's creating these scenarios that would make her feel like, 'Well, if I had just done that, gosh that would have been nice, thinking about that life.' And her mind seeing that going, 'Oh, that would be nice. Well, let's do that. Yes.' So she was what if-ing her life. And it was something that she did very early as a child because that's how she just experienced something traumatic with her father. In her mind, she'd be going, 'Well, what if I had to just left 10 minutes earlier, and I had have escaped that?' Or 'What if I hadn't done this?' So that's what she was doing. It made no sense to me because I hadn't experienced her life, but that's what she was doing. Her mind was trying to fix something. It's never tried to hurt you. It was never, at any point, trying to make you feel bad. It was trying to protect you. Lisa: Its job is to protect you from danger and it sees everything as you sit in the now so it's happening now. I love that analogy of these... What was it? Two-thirds of the car or something and... Dr Don: So goat and snowflake? Lisa: Goat and snowflake. And they're going off to a meeting and they're late. And what does the goat says to snowflake or the other way around? Dr Don: So snowflake, which is your conscious mind, your logical reasonable part of your mind, there's only 5, says the goat 95%, which is your subconscious mind. Who runs into a traffic jam says, 'Oh, we're going to be late. We should have left 15 minutes earlier.' To which goat replies 'Okay, let's do it. Let's leave 15 minutes earlier because that would solve the problem.'  Lisa: That analogy is stuck in my head because you just cannot... It doesn't know that it's too late and you can't hop into the past because it only lives in the now. This is 95% of how our brain operates. That's why we can do things like, I was walking, I was at a strategy meeting in Auckland with my business partner two days ago. We were walking along the road and he suddenly tripped and fell onto the road, right? My subconscious reacted so fast, I grabbed him right, and punched him in the guts. I didn't mean to do that but my subconscious recognised in a millimeter of a second, millionth of a second, that he was falling and I had to stop him. So this is a good side of the survival network: stopping and falling into the traffic or onto the ground.  But the downside of it is that brain is operating only in the now and it can't... Like with my father, it was going 'Save him. Save him. Save him. Why are you not saving him?' Then that's calling for an action, and then my body is agitated. The cortisol level's up. The adrenaline is up, and I'm trying to do something that's impossible to fix. That can drive you to absolute insanity when that's happening every hour, every day. Dr Don: Then that's taking a physical toll on your body because it's activating your nervous system, which is now, the cortisol levels are going up, adrenaline, right? So when your mind is in that constant state, it does very little on maintenance. It is not worried about fixing anything; it's worried about escaping or fixing the threat, because that's the number one priority.  Lisa: It doesn't know that it's not happening. I ended up with shingles for two months. I've only just gotten over it a few weeks ago. That's a definite sign of my body's, my immune system is down. Why is it down? Why can that virus that's been sitting dormant in my body for 40-something years suddenly decide now to come out? Because it's just becoming too much. I've spent too long in the fight or flight state and then your immune system is down. This is how we end up really ill.  Dr Don: We get sick. I was just actually having lunch today with a young lady and she's got some immune system issues. And I said, 'Think about it like the US Army, US military is the biggest, strongest military in the world. But if you took that military and you spread it out amongst 50 countries around the world fighting battles, and then somebody attacks the United States, I don't care how big and strong that system was, that military system was. It's going to be weakened when it gets an attack at the homefront.' So that's what was happening. So all of a sudden, now that virus that it could fight and keep dormant, it lets it pass by because it's like, 'Well, we can let that go. We'll catch that later. Right now, we got to go on the offensive and attack something else.' Lisa: Yeah, and this is where autoimmune, like your daughter experienced... Dr Don: About the Crohn's? Yep.  Lisa: Yep. She experienced that at 13 or something ridiculous? Dr Don: 14, she got it. Then she also got idiopathic pulmonary hemosiderosis which is another lung autoimmune disorder where the iron in the blood would just cause the lungs to release the blood. So her lungs just starts filling up with blood. They had no idea what caused it, that's the idiopathic part of it, and they just basically said, ‘There's no cure. She just needs to live close to a hospital because she'll bleed out if she has another attack.' Only 1 in 1.2 million people ever get that. So it's very rare so there's no research being done for it. They just basically say, ‘If you get it, live close to a hospital.' That's the strategy. Lisa: That's the way of fixing it.  Dr Don: And so both of those are autoimmune, and ever since we've gone to the program, she's hasn't had a flare-up of either one of those. Because I think our system is directly now able to address those things.  Lisa: Yeah, and can calm down. I think even people who haven't got post-traumatic stress like I've had or whatever, they've still got the day to day grind of life, and the struggle with finances, and the mortgage to be paid, and the kids to feed, and whatever dramas we're all going through. Like we talked about with COVID and this constant change that society is undergoing, and that's going to get faster and more. So this is something that we all need to be wary of: That we're not in this. I've taught and learned a lot about the coping and managing strategies, the breathing techniques, and meditation, the things, and that's what's kept me, probably, going. Dr Don: Those are great because they're... Again, that's managing it but it's good to have that because you've got to get to the root of it, which is what we were working on. But at the same time, if you don't have any coping, managing skills, life gets very difficult. Lisa: Yeah, and this is in-the-moment, everyday things that I can do to help manage the stress levels, and this is definitely something you want to talk about as well. So with me, we went through this process, and we did... For starters, you had to get my brain into a relaxed state, and it took quite a long time to get my brainwaves into a different place. So what were we doing there? How does that work with the brainwave stuff?  Dr Don: Well, when we have a traumatic event or memory, that has been stored in a very high-resolution state. So in a beta brainwave state because all your senses are heightened: sight, smell, hearing. So it's recording that and storing it in memory in a very intense state. So if I sat down with you and said, 'Okay, let's get this fixed.' And I just started trying to work directly on that memory, you're still going to be in a very high agitated state because we're going to be starting to talk about this memory. So you're going to be in a beta brainwave state trying to recalibrate a beta stored memory. That's going to be very difficult to do.  So what we do is, and that's why I use the four hours because within that first an hour and a half to two hours, we're basically communicating with the subconscious part of the brain by telling stories, symbols with metaphors, goat and snowflake, all the stories, all the metaphors that are built-in because then your brain moves into an alpha state. When it's in alpha, that's where it does restoration. So it's very prepared to start restoring. And then, if you remember, by the time we got to a couple of the traumatic memories, we only work on them for two or three minutes. Because you're in alpha, and so you've got this higher state of beta, and it recalibrates it into the same state that it's in. So if it's in alpha, it can take a beta memory, reprocess it in alpha, takes all the intensity out of it.  Lisa: So these brain waves, these beta states, just to briefly let people know, so this is speed, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the speed at which the brain waves are coming out. So in beta, like you'd see on ECG or something, it's sort of really fast. I think there's a 40 day... Dr Don: It's 15 to 30 hertz. Lisa: 15 to 30 hertz and then if you're in alpha, it's a lot lower than that? Dr Don: 7 to 14. Lisa: 7 to 14, and then below that is sort of when you're going into the sleep phase, either deep meditative or asleep. Dr Don: You're dreaming. Because what it's doing in dreaming is processing. So you're between 4 and 7 hertz. That's why people who have a lot of trauma have trouble sleeping. Because not only is their mind processing what it experienced during the day, it's also taking some of those old files saying, 'Well, okay, let's fix that now. Right. Let's get that.' That's where your nightmares are coming from. It was trying to get you into a processing to fix that. but it couldn't fix it. So it continues, and then when you go below 4 hertz, you go into delta. Delta is dreamless sleep and that's where the maintenance is getting done.  Lisa: That's the physical maintenance side more than the... Dr Don: Physical maintenance. Yeah, because that's not processing what it experienced anymore. What it's really now doing is saying, 'Okay, what are the issues that need to be dealt with?' So if you're very relaxed and you've had a very... Like me, right? I played hockey, so I had six concussions, 60 stitches, and never missed a hockey game. The only reason now that I understand I could do that is because I'm getting two or three times more Delta sleep than my teammates were. Lisa: Physical recuperative sleep.  Dr Don: Yeah, I was getting maximum restorative sleep. So an injury that I would have that could heal in two or three days, my teammates would two or three weeks. Because they were living in these, which I didn't know, a lot of my friends were dealing with trauma: physical, emotional, sexual abuse. I didn't know that was going on with my friends. Nobody talked about it. I didn't see it in their homes, but they were all dealing with that.  Lisa: So they are not able to get... So look, I've noticed since I've been through the program. My sleep is much better, and sometimes I still occasionally dream about Dad. But the positive dreams, if that makes sense. They're more Dad as he as he was in life and I actually think Dad's come to visit me and say, ‘Hi, give me a hug' rather than the traumatic last days and hours of his life, which was the ones that were coming in before and calling for that action and stopping me from having that restorative sleep.  I just did a podcast with Dr Kirk Parsley who's a sleep expert, ex-Navy SEAL and a sleep expert that's coming out shortly. Or I think by this time, it will be out, and understanding the importance, the super importance of both the delta and... What is the other one? The theta wave of sleep patterns, and what they do, and why you need both, and what parts of night do what, and just realising...Crikey, anybody who is going through trauma isn't experiencing sleep is actually this vicious cycle downwards. Because then, you've got more of the beta brainwave state, and you've got more of the stresses, and you're much less resilient when you can't sleep. You're going to... have health issues, and brain issues, and memory, and everything's going to go down south, basically.  Dr Don: That's why I didn't understand at the time. They just said 'Well, you're just super healthy. You heal really fast.' They had no other explanation for it. Now, I know exactly why. But it had nothing to do with my genetics. It had to do with my environment. Lisa: Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on here. It's been a public service free for everybody, and we want to keep it that way but to do that, we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's patron.lisatamati.com.  We have two patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as 7 dollars a month, New Zealand or 15 dollars a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us. Everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries, and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com, and thanks very much for joining us.  Dr Don: That's, at the time, we just thought it was all, must have been genetics. But I realised now that it was environment as well. So maybe a genetic component to it as well, but then you take that and put that into this very beautiful, nurturing environment, I'm going to sleep processing in beta what I experienced that day and then my mind basically, at that point, is 'What do we need to work on? Not much. Let's go. Let's start now doing some maintenance.' Because it wants to address the top of item stuff first. What is it needs to be taken care of right now? Right? Those are the threats.  Once it gets the threats processed, then it can then start working on the things that are going to be the more long-term maintenance. So then it'll do that. But if it never gets out of that threat mode, it gets out for very little time. Then, if you're getting 30 minutes of delta sleep at night and I'm getting two hours, it's a no-brainer to figure out why I would heal faster.  Lisa: Absolutely, and this is independent of age and things because you've got all that that comes into it as well. Your whole chemistry changes as you get older and all this. There's other compounding issues as it gets more and more important that you get these pieces of the puzzle right.  Do you think that this is what leads to a lot of disease, cancers, and things like that as well? There's probably not one reason. There's a multitude of reasons, but it's definitely one that we can influence. So it's worth looking at it if you've got trauma in your life. People were saying to me 'Oh my God, you don't look good.' When you start hearing that from your friends, your people coming up to you and going, 'I can feel that you're not right.' People that are sensitive to you and know you very well, and you start hearing that over and over, and you start to think, 'Shit, something's got real. Maybe I need to start looking at this.'  Because it's just taking all your energy your way, isn't it, on so many levels. The restorative side and the ability to function in your life, and your work, and all of that, and that, of course, leads into depressive thoughts and that hyper-vigilant state constantly. That's really tiresome rather than being just chill, relax, enjoying life, and being able to... Like one of the things I love in my life is this podcast because I just get into such a flow state when I'm learning from such brilliant... Dr Don: You're in alpha. Lisa: I am. I am on it because this is, 'Oh. That's how that works.' And I just get into this lovely learning in an alpha state with people because I'm just so excited and curious. This is what I need to be doing more of. And less of the, if you'd see me half an hour ago trying to work out the technology. That's definitely not an alpha state for me. Dr Don: That's where they said Albert Einstein lived. Albert Einstein lived in alpha brainwave state. That's why information just float for him because there was no stress. He could then pull information very easily to float into. But if you're in a high beta brainwave state, there's too much activity. It has trouble focusing on anything because it's multiple threats on multiple fronts. So when we have a traumatic event, that's how it's being recorded. If you remember, what we talked about was there's a 400 of a millionth of a second gap in between your subconscious mind seeing the information and it going to your consciousness. So in 400 millionths of a second, your subconscious mind has already started a response into an action even though your conscious mind is not even aware of it yet.  Lisa: Yeah. Exactly what I did with rescuing my partner with the glass falling off the thing. I hadn't reached that logically. Dr Don: It's funny because that's one of the things that I talked about ,which is sort of, give us all a little bit of grace. Because if you've had a lot of trauma, you're going to respond a certain way. How could you not? If your mind's filtering into all of that, of course you're going to respond with that kind of a response because your mind is prone to go into that action very, very quickly. So we can give ourselves a little bit of grace in understanding that of course, you're going to do that, right? And not beat ourselves up.  Because you know what I talked about with everybody, there's nothing wrong with anybody. There's nothing wrong with anybody's mind. Everybody's mind is fine except you are experiencing something different than I experienced so your mind kept responding to it, and mine didn't have that. So you had multiple... Think about we have a hundred percent of our energy on our phone when we wake up in the morning, right? Fully powered up. You fire the phone up and eight programs open up, right? And mine has one.  Lisa: Yeah. You're just focusing on what you need to. Dr Don: Then noon comes, and you're having to plug your phone back in because you're out of energy.  Lisa: That's a perfect analogy. You're just burning the battery. My all is a hundred windows open in the back of my brain that is just processing all these things and so now, I can start to heal. So having gone through this process with you, like you said, we worked on a number of traumatic experiences, and I went through them in my mind. And then you did certain things, made me follow with my eyes and track here, and my eyes did this, and then, we pulled my attention out in the middle of the story and things. That helped me stay in that alpha state, brainwave state as I probably now understand while I'm still reliving the experience. That's sort of taking the colour out of it so that it's now sort of in a black and white folder. Now, it can still be shared, and it hasn't taken away the sadness of... Dr Don: Because it is sad that these things happen but that's not the response for an action which is that fear or anger, right? That dysregulation of the nervous system. That's what we want to stop, because that is what is going to affect health, enjoyment of life and everything else.  Lisa: Wow, this is so powerful. Yeah, and it's been very, very beneficial for me and helped me deal. For me, it also unfolded. Because after the four hour period with you, I had audiotapes and things that are meditations to do every day for the next 30 days. What were we doing in that phase of the recovery? What were you targeting in those sort of sessions?  Dr Don: So if you remember what we talked about, we have two memory systems. The explicit memory is what we worked on on that four hours. That's detail, events, and experiences. Once we get the mind processing through that, then we have to work on the same memory animals have, which is that associative repetitive memory. So you've built a series of codes on how to respond to threats, and that has come in over repetition and associations. So the audios are designed to start getting you now to build some new neural pathways, some new ways to respond because your mind won't switch a pattern instantly. It can switch a memory instantly, but a pattern is something that got built over a period of time. So it's like a computer. If I'm coding on my computer, I can't take one key to stop that code. I have to write a new code. Yeah, so what we're doing over the 30 days is writing new code. Lisa: Helping me make new routines and new habits around new neural pathways, basically.  Dr Don: You don't have that explicit memory interfering with the pathways. Because now, it's not constantly pulling you out, going back into an action call. It's basically now able to look at this information and these codes that got built and say, 'Okay, what's a better way? So do we have a better way of doing it?' Or 'Show me that code. Write that code.' If that code looks safer, then your mind will adopt that new code. Lisa: This is why, I think for me, there was an initial, there was definitely... Like the nightmares stopped, the intrusive every minute, hour triggering stopped, but the process over the time and the next... And I'm still doing a lot of the things and the meditations. It's reinforcing new habit building. This is where... Like for people dealing with addictions, this is the path for them as well, isn't it?  Dr Don: Yeah. Because I talked about addiction as a code. I don't believe it's a disease. Your mind has found a resource to stop pains, and your subconscious mind is literal. It doesn't see things as good or bad, or right or wrong. It's literal. 'Did that stop the pain? Let's do that.' Because it's trying to protect you. So if you've now repeated it over and over, not only have you stopped the pain, but you've built an association with a substance that is seen as beneficial. Lisa: Because your brain sees it as medicine when you're taking, I don't know, cocaine or something. It sees it as essential to your life even though you, on a logical level, know that, ‘This is destroying me and it's a bad thing for me.' Your subconscious goes, 'No, this is a good thing and I need it right now.' Dr Don: Because it's in the present, when does it want the pain to stop? Now. So it has no ability to see a future or a past. Your subconscious is in the moment. So if you take cocaine, the logical part of your brain goes, 'Oh, this is going to create problems for me. I'm going to become addicted.' Right? Your subconscious goes, ‘Well, the pain stopped. We don't see that as a bad thing.' I always use the analogy: Why did people jump out of the buildings at 911? They weren't jumping to die. They were jumping to live because when would they die? Now, if they jump, would they die? No. They stopped the death. So even jumping, which logically makes no sense, right? But to the subconscious mind, it was going to stop the pain now.  Lisa: Yeah, and even if it was two seconds in the future that they would die, your brain is going...  Dr Don: It doesn't even know what two seconds are.  Lisa: No. It has no time. Isn't it fascinating that we don't have a time memory or understanding in that part of the brain that runs 95% of the ship?  Dr Don: It's like what Albert Einstein said, ‘There's no such thing as time.' So it's like an animal. If an animal could communicate and you say, 'What time is it?' That would make no sense to an animal. 'What do you mean? It's now.' 'What time is it now?' 'Now. Exactly.' Lisa: It's a construct that we've made to... Dr Don: Just to explain a lot of stuff, right? When something happens.  Lisa: Yeah, and this is quite freeing when you think of it. But it does make a heck of a lot of sense. So people are not being destructive when they become drug addicts or addicted to nicotine, or coffee, or chocolate. They're actually trying to stop the pain that they're experiencing in some other place and fix things now. Even though the logical brain... Because the logical brain is such a tiny... Like this is the last part of our evolution, and it's not as fully...  We can do incredible things with it at 5%. We've made the world that we live in, and we're sitting here on Zoom, and we've got incredible powers. But it's all about the imagination, being able to think into the future, into the past, and to make correlations, and to recognise patterns. That's where all our creativity and everything, or not just creativity, but our ability to analyse and put forth stuff into the world is happening. But in actual, we're still like the animals and the rest of it. We're still running at 95%, and that's where we can run into the problems with these two.  Dr Don: Because you got two systems. You got a very advanced system operating within a very primitive system, and it hasn't integrated. It's still integrating, right? So if there's a survival threat, survival will always override reason and logic, because it's designed to protect you. So there's no reason and logic that will come in if there's a survival threat. It's just going to respond the way it knows, does this Google search, 'What do we know about this threat? How do we know to protect ourselves, and we'll go instantly into survival mode.' Again, there's the reason and logic. Why would you jump out of a building, right? If you applied reason and logic, you wouldn't have jumped, right? People will say, 'Well, but they still jumped.' Yes, because reason and logic didn't even come into the process. It was all about survival.  Lisa: Yeah. When the fire is coming in it was either... Dr Don: 'Am I going to die out now or I'm going to move and not die now?'  Lisa: Yeah, and we're also prone to movement when we're in agitation and in an agitated state, aren't we? Basically, all of the blood and the muscles saying, 'Run, fight, do something. Take action.' Dr Don: That's why when people get into depression, it's the absence of those emotions.  Lisa: Yeah, and people feel exhaustion.  Dr Don: Yeah. The mind kept calling for an action using anger, for example, but you can't do the action because it's not happening, so it shuts down to protect you and stops calling for any emotion, and that's depression. So the key to get out of depression is actions. It's to get something happening. So in a lot of people who are depressed, what do I tell them to do? 'Start moving. Start exercising. Get out. Start doing things.' Right?  Lisa: So I run ultras. Dr Don: Exactly. Perfect example, right?  Lisa: Yeah, because I was. I was dealing with a lot of shit in my life at the time when I started doing ultra-marathons. To run was to quiet the pain and to run was to be able to cope and to have that meditative space in order to work through the stuff that was going on in my life. And I know even in my husband's life, when he went through a difficult time, that's when he started running. So running can be a very powerful therapeutic, because there is a movement, and you're actually burning through the cortisol and the adrenaline that's pouring around in your body. Therefore, sitting still and that sort of things was just not an option for me. I had to move. And it explains what, really. It's calling the movement. Like it was a movement because I couldn't fix the other thing.  Dr Don: That's what they'll tell you to do. To get out of depression is to move. What I say is the way to get out of depression is to get your mind to resolve what it's been asking for. Lisa: It's going a little deeper.  Dr Don: Yeah. So it's going down and saying, 'Okay, why has it been getting you angry and now, it shut down from the anger?' Because it's been trying to get you in your situation. 'Don't let Dad die. Don't let this happen.' Right? So because you couldn't do it, it just shuts down. Makes perfect sense but when we get to the resolution that there is no action required, there's no need for the depression anymore. The depression will lift because there's no more call for an action.  Lisa: I can feel that in me, that call. Anytime that anything does still pop up, I sort of acknowledge the feeling and say, 'There is no call for action here. This is in the past. This is a memory.' So I do remind myself that when things do still pop up from time to time now, as opposed to hourly. I go, 'Hey, come back into the now. This is the now. That was the then that's calling for an action. This is why you're doing thing.' Even that understanding

Lisa Kipps-Brown - Glerin Business Resources, Inc. Author of the books Disrupt Your Now and Boomer Cashout, Lisa is a refreshing change in a world full of self-proclaimed experts who throw jargon around like candy. She helps entrepreneurs solve big picture problems with disruptive strategic thinking and no gobbledygook. A pioneer in business use of the web, she started her web & marketing strategy company in 1996. When few people knew what Amazon was and two years before Google existed, she was already reimagining businesses and even sold an online business right before the dot-com bubble burst. Other achievements include saving companies from bankruptcy and tripling CARES Act funds for rural communities via innovative campaigns. Lisa's straight talk combined with a natural talent for transforming basic ideas into disruptive strategy & valuable collaborations has people like Forbes 30 Under 30-listed blind PhD chemist Dr. Hoby Wedler calling her a “cognitive powerhouse.” Steve Sims, author of Bluefishing, says she's a unicorn who bridges the gap between digital natives and digital immigrants. https://lisakippsbrown.com/ https://disruptyournow.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisakippsbrown/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisakippsbrown/) My latest book, Disrupt Your Now: The Successful Entrepreneur's Guide to Reimagining Your Business & Life http://www.marlanasemenza.com (www.marlanasemenza.com) Audio: Ariza Music Productions Transription : Vision In Word On this episode, we discuss how to get out of your own way!    Marlana: Lisa Kipps Brown helps entrepreneurs solve big picture problems with disruptive strategic thinking and no gobbledygook. She's also the author of the book https://lisakippsbrown.com/disrupt-your-now-book/ (Disrupt Your Now). Welcome Lisa!  Lisa: Hello, Marlana! It's so good to see you. Thanks for having me.  Marlana: So today we're going to talk about getting out of your own way. Because I think that's a problem that most of us have at some point or another, sometimes multiple times. Why do you think we do that to ourselves?  Lisa: I think a big part of it is that we just overthink everything. And not just entrepreneurs, but everybody. You know, if you think about it, you can usually give other people better advice than they can give themselves. And then at the same time, you're screwing up your own life, or you're making poor decisions. I just think that we're so close to our own problems, that we can't see the forest for the trees.  Marlana: Do you think that it's even possible for us to recognize that we're putting these roadblocks up for ourselves or not?  Lisa: I'm sure that some people do. And I know that I do. But even when I know I'm doing it, a lot of times, I still am totally lost in what I should be doing. Because once again, it's just like, we're just so close to it. You know how like a painting, if you stand really close, and you only see a small part, you're not seeing the whole thing, and then you back up and you see the entire vision. And you're like, “oh!” I really think that's what it is. Last weekend at Brandon Straza, (his three C coaching event), we talked about this topic a lot. And every single person there has the problem. I mean, I've been an entrepreneur for 31 years, and I've owned my current business for 26. And there are other people there had been in business for decades. We're all the same. So, if anybody out there is feeling like a weirdo or loser, don't, you're just normal.  Marlana: Is it better for us to have somebody kind of, give  us that bird's eye view, so to speak?  Lisa: Yeah, I think one of the biggest mistakes that I made in my own entrepreneurial career is not having a coach earlier. I kind of always looked at a coach as rah rah, you know, you can do this. And I'm like, I understand business. And I don't need any...

Lisa Vielee is President at Well Done Marketing, a 15-yer-old full-spectrum, strategic, creative, and technical agency that provides design, branding, content marketing, public relations, and digital strategy services . . . but not traditional media-buying.  Lisa claims this small, independent agency is unusual for its size in that it has a full web development team and can “go straight from web design to UX, UI, and development, testing, and then continue with ongoing maintenance web development. Lisa explains that “design to development” can be a rocky handoff – but keeping everything “in agency” eliminates this problem. Today, websites, which used to be one-and-done “catalogs,” require constant updating to make sure they provide great customer experience, enhance and support the customer journey, and align with changing customer needs. New business comes into Well Done in one of three ways—through referrals, through “the dreaded RFP process, and finally, and through outbound sales. Dedicated service managers serve as primary points of contact for clients, represent the agency's team for the client and the client internally, and bring in the staff with required skill sets as they are needed. Lisa believes the agency's small size of 30-some employees promotes nimbleness and the ability to maximize budgets. The agency's clients present the agency with “problems to be solved” but solutions now are far more comprehensive than they were in the past. Lisa says it is important to “not just focus on the initial creative strategy” (which tends to live short term inside a campaign) but to take a wider view and develop marketing strategies aligned with long term business and brand goals. She says marketing, is “more than just distribution channels and the4 Ps” (product, price, place, promotion)—marketing needs a seat at the C table.  Lisa feels it is important to mentor younger people and asks them to define their “end goals” and “their visions of success.” She explains that some people may want to create a company, sell it, and become millionaires. Others may want a tight, small, focused team that provides meaningful service and personal satisfaction. Still, others just want to come to work and do a good job, day in and day out. Lisa says these are all valid and that, no matter what each individual is pursuing as success, Well Done will work to keep them challenged.  Lisa, who refers to herself as a “communications generalist,” did not start her career at Well Done Marketing. After earning a degree in journalism, she almost immediately went to the “dark side,” and worked in a variety of public relations positions. When her political candidate/employer lost an election, Lisa started her own PR firm . . . which grew until she had a choice, she either had to start saying “no” or add employees. She met with an old friend, Ken Honeywell, to ask him to mentor her and help her grow to the next level.  But Ken Honeywell had other ideas. He and a fellow freelance writer had started Well Done Marketing by outsourcing their services to other agencies. As they grew, they added visual and strategic skills and data management. Now, Ken wanted to add public relations to his firm's offerings. He brought Lisa on board to add PR and with the intention of grooming her to take over the agency's leadership as he started his 5- to 8-year journey toward retirement.  Six years in, Lisa understands the culture, knows where the agency excels and has developed her vision for the agency's future. Ken will be retiring at the end of the year. Lisa says the hardest part for her in stepping into the role of president has been giving up day-to-day client interaction. Her focus now is on agency-level problems and issues, expanding the agency from a regional to a national “marketing force,” and making it a legacy that lives beyond this transition in leadership. Lisa is available on her agency's website at Welldonemarketing.com. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Lisa Vielee, President at Well Done Marketing based in Indianapolis, Indiana. Welcome to the podcast, Lisa. LISA: Thanks, Rob. It's good to be here. ROB: It's excellent to have you here. Why don't you give us an introduction to Well Done Marketing and what you do that is so well done? LISA: Well Done Marketing is a 15-year shop here in Indianapolis. We're a full-service marketing agency. We like to say that if it's strategic, creative, or technical, we probably do it. That's everything from design, branding, content marketing, public relations, digital strategy. Also, kind of unusual for an agency our size as a small/mid-size agency, we have a full web development team. So we can go straight from web design to UX, UI, and development, testing, and then ongoing maintenance for our clients, which is really great because sometimes that handoff from design to development can be a little rocky and some things can get lost in translation. That's part of the reason why we brought it in-house. For the most part, unless it's traditional media buying, you can find it here at Well Done. ROB: That's an interesting evolution, because for a time – and this may be part of your transition – web development used to be kind of one-and-done. It seems to me now that a website is never really done and needs to be adjusted alongside everything else that's going on with the brand. LISA: Absolutely. Websites have gone from brochures online to really more of a customer experience. It's the first thing people see and learn about your company, so keeping that content fresh has really evolved from being just updating blog posts to updating everything on your site and making sure it aligns with what the customer wants. The customer journey is paramount, and I think that's where having data and content and having that come together makes a lot of sense, and being able to change that in real time helps us as an agency, and we think helps our clients be really competitive in the market. ROB: Right. It turns it from this big event into just part of the cadence. I totally understand that. Can you maybe give us a picture through the lens of a particular client? What's a walk-through of a typical-ish client engagement for you? Who are you working with? What are the touchpoints? LISA: For any advertising agency, there's probably no such thing as a “typical” client. The clients that we love to work with are the clients that come to us with an overall problem to be solved. It used to be that was always an agency of record, but now it tends to be a project comes in and they recognize that marketing partners such as ourselves can help them do more than put a piece of content or an advertising campaign together. One of our philosophies is to not just focus on the initial creative strategy, but to really take a step back whenever we can and focus on the marketing strategy. That's really more aligned with business goals and brand goals, whereas a campaign – creative strategy tends to live in that campaign, that short term. For a lot of our clients, they'll come to us for a project and then find that we're asking questions and going outside of our lane, giving advice to them that goes beyond the campaign. Even if they don't continue with us, our hope is that we can help that marketing person or that marketing director really understand why they need a seat at the table in the C-suite, and that marketing is really more than just distribution channels and the 4 Ps. ROB: Right. As you talk about the range of services that you work with clients on, how are you then structuring the client engagement and the team around them? How are you establishing the primary point of contact and how do you bring people to the team around them? What's that structure look like? LISA: We have dedicated service managers responsible for all of our clients. They're the primary point of contact. Then we bring in people as needed. Again, as a small independent agency, we can be a little more nimble. We can maximize budgets that way. So we'll tell clients, with the exception of the initial kick-off meeting, where you want everybody at the table – other than that, you will see people when you need them at whatever stage of the process you're in. That account manager's responsibility is not only to represent our team for the client, but also to represent the client internally. ROB: It's such a key relationship and it's always interesting to think about how to structure it, because it's really make or break. There's a lot of stake there in that role. LISA: There absolutely is. A lot of agencies get started with the trifecta. You've got a creative person, a writer, a designer, and an account service person. For us, that's not really how we started. Our two founders were both freelancers, so they started with this loose coalition of freelancers. The two people were writers, and they started an agency based on providing good content. Their first clients were typically other agencies. Along the way, our founder decided that we could do more, that it really was about how he and his partner were thinking as well as the content that came out of it. So as the agency evolved, we found it made sense to show how that thinking works visually, strategically, through buys, through data management, and ultimately – my background's in PR, so also in how we were communicating to different stakeholders. ROB: Absolutely. I think you bring us to an important part of the conversation. You mentioned the founders of the firm, you mentioned those older parts. You've taken us through a little bit of the origin story, but let's talk about your journey into the firm, what you were up to before, and what it looked like to dive into Well Done, and now you're the president. LISA: I am a proud communications generalist. I graduated with a degree in journalism, went over to the dark side and started working in public relations almost immediately, and over the course of my career, I've worked in internationally recognized nonprofits; I've done a stint in two or three different agencies of different sizes. I worked in state government, and then, as is typically the case in government, eventually your candidate loses. When my candidate lost, I took some time to think about what I wanted to do and how I wanted to balance my work and life. I decided to hang my own shingle. You get to a point as a freelancer where you have to decide if you're going to start saying no to preserve your own sanity or if you're going to add people. I have trouble saying no, so I started adding additional people. Ken Honeywell, our founder, and I have known each other forever. Indianapolis is known as one of those “small town” big cities. Everybody seems to know everybody, and in the marketing and advertising space, we all have tended to work with each other or for each other. So Ken and I have known each other for years. We came to a point where I actually asked him to go to lunch because I wanted to ask him how to take the next step. I was under five employees; he at the time had about 20, and I wanted to ask him to be my mentor and really help me grow. It was a fun conversation because his answer was, “Well, sure, I'd be happy to help you, but I was hoping we could take this conversation in a different direction. I think we need to add PR, and why don't you come on board? And oh, by the way, I think you'd be a great successor and a great leader for Well Done.” Really, it was one of those I was looking through a door and he opened the window, and we started having that conversation. From the beginning, we were very intentional about not only how to add that service line and that different way of approaching a customer's communication needs, but also how we were going to approach the internal management of the agency. The staff immediately knew that it was a sign that Ken was going to retire. We always said it was a 5- to 8-year journey so that I could learn the culture, I could really come in and understand where we did our best work and what that meant, and also put my vision together for the second generation of leadership. And now here we are 6 years later, and it's bittersweet because Ken is retiring at the end of the year, but everyone is ready. Not ready as in “Get out of here,” but ready in terms of we know where we've been, where we're going, how our story is evolving. ROB: What I'm hearing you say is first day in the door, you were going from around five people in your organization to maybe around 30 or so? What was that jump in responsibility? LISA: Yeah, I was employee #24. In the last few years, we've added people. I think we're now at mid-30s. I'd like to think that bringing my company in was a good addition because we've been able to add clients and add people. But the other thing that I've realized, again, as that communications generalist, is I was well-positioned to understand the agency from a business perspective. A lot of agencies that are started the way ours started don't necessarily have the greatest business structure. I take this role of president really seriously in that I've given up being involved on the day-to-day – which was really, really hard. That was probably my biggest challenge at first. I didn't want to give up that day-to-day client interaction and being involved in solving their problems. It took me a couple of years, but I realized after time that my job was to solve the problems and issues of the agency and working on the agency. That's really set us up for success going forward because my leadership team, we have big dreams. We want to grow from a regional company to a more nationally recognized agency. And having someone at the helm of that is a really important part to making that happen. ROB: Was that the hardest part to let go of? The last responsibility you wanted to give up was working directly with the clients, then? LISA: It's been a 5-year journey. To be fully transparent, I am turning over the reins for my last client next month. ROB: That's progress, right? I think you highlight a neat opportunity for the entire services industry. There's seemingly always room for the next wave of companies to rise up from nothing to regional player to national player. Some of them get bought along the way and some of them stand strong. It's a great journey to be on. LISA: Yeah, I think so. It's exciting, for sure. In my experience, from the places where I've worked, a lot of agencies, especially in the Midwest – we're very humble people. It's kind of scary to share that big goal. But again, to have a founder who is so willing to help his baby get to the next step and bring on someone that can really make it become a legacy – because that's the other thing. Agencies tend to come and go as the founders come and go. It's been a real gift to have this opportunity to really work with our leadership team and envision where we want to go and make it something that can be a legacy for our founder. ROB: When you start to think about growth, there's lots of struggles, but there's a couple that constantly come into play. It's sales and execution in the services business overall. I think one of the hardest things to get predictable for an agency can be seeing a lane to predictable growth beyond – I think sometimes we just feel like we luck into business, we get referrals, we grow organically. How have you thought about scaling growth? I think that can be very intimidating. LISA: That's an interesting question, because we've tried several different models for that. We have had a couple of new business directors and have found – and maybe it's just my poor hiring, but we've had people that are great networkers and can open doors, but are not salesmen, and we've had people that are great salespeople but don't necessarily understand the agency business. We have now made business development a responsibility of our accounts team and really have encouraged anyone that has that dream client or that industry that they bring some expertise or they want to grow in, to bring that to the table, and we'll start looking for connections. I might be dating myself here, but it's a little bit like seven degrees of Kevin Bacon. Eventually we sit down and realize that there's no such thing as a cold lead. ROB: Right. What I hear you saying is that the accounts team function in an opportunity identification mode, and then it's more of a team sport after that. LISA: Yeah, it is. Let me take a step back. New business comes in in one of three ways. We've mentioned referrals; that's always a primary source, especially from clients who believe in what you do and think you're a good partner. There's always the dreaded RFP process. [laughs] It's a necessary evil of our business and can result in really good work. Then the third piece is that outbound sales. I think this is a place where ecommerce, SaaS companies – obviously, you get into the retail and consumer market, people do really well. But professional services tend to have a struggle in carving out time for that. I think that's the difference. That's where the lead really happens for a small agency to become more of a mid-size regional player: by recognizing that you have to sell yourself a little bit as well and go after some of those big fish. For a long time, we talked about how we were punching above our weight class. I've really challenged our team to start thinking, maybe we're in our weight class. Let's just punch where we are because we can do the work and we bring a special kind of strategy and thinking to the table that helps distinguish us from some of our larger competitors who may have scaled to such a size that the process is there, and it works for their clients, but we're a little bit scrappier. ROB: Right. There's an extent to which I think unless an organization is very intentional about seeking a particular size of opportunity – I know very small consultancies that pursue very large clients, and we've talked to a couple of agencies on the podcast that are 800 people and they're working with local plumbers. Those are the exceptions. Everything else seems like, to an extent, the right size opportunity ends up matching your speed. I can't quite explain the serendipity of it, but it seems the size of opportunity comes to you when you're ready for it, to an extent. LISA: Yeah, I completely agree. Serendipity is a great word. I have always referred to it as karma. One of the things any company has to do, in my opinion, as they grow is have the ability to say no. That's the local plumber thing. It's really hard to say no to business, especially – we're a 15-year agency; we lived through the recession. We're currently living through COVID, and third and fourth generation of COVID. There's a tendency to just take any work as it comes. I'm a firm believer that if you say “No, thank you” with a referral – “Let me hook you up with someone that might be a better fit” – that's karmic, and people remember that. They remember that you're good people, and when the time is right, that's going to come back around and it's going to serve you. ROB: Something I think you alluded to when you mentioned the SaaS companies, the startups, the software companies – it seems that sometimes service companies, agencies, will try to borrow maybe a little bit too much from those playbooks, and in the process they'll try to act like a SaaS company that's trying to sell $500 a month widgets, which is never going to feed the business sufficiently. How have you thought about the right granularity of sales? It sounds like by surfacing the leads through a thoughtful process with the team, you're avoiding this kind of “Let's blast the universe and everyone who could be our customer.” LISA: You couldn't have said it better. On my drive in to work, I listen to marketing podcasts much like this one, and I wish I could remember where I heard it so I could attribute it correctly, but I heard someone talk about issuing a challenge to agencies to decide where they live on a continuum. Are you an agency that makes things, or are you an agency that thinks things? So a true consultancy, which has become a bad word, or that widget-maker? I like to think Well Done leans more to the thinking things side. We're not a good fit for people that need widgets. We're going to be too expensive, or our process is going to be too frontloaded, or frankly you're going to get frustrated because we are interested in creating your brochure or your website. We're really interested in understanding not only how to find a solution for your problem, but why is your problem a problem? So we tend to really look at context as well as content. Our model is very audience-centric, and that means our client – we get that our clients have 1,000 things to think about. For us, we're thinking about them 100% of the time we're working on the account, but for them, our work is only a part of it. If we can ask smart questions, help them consider things outside of our little part of it, and take some of that off their plate simply by understanding the context in which they're working, then for us, that's really when we're successful at our job. ROB: That makes sense. You're going to naturally match pace with some of those clients that look like where you are as an organization and where you're comfortable. In the startup world, they talk about – not that we're hunting animals; people won't like that metaphor – but the question, are you hunting rabbits or deer or elephants? You need to know, because those tasks all take specific tools, specific teams, specific tactics, and you're going to have to build the whole organization around it. Or you're just going to wait around and see what falls into the trap, I guess might be the metaphor. [laughs] LISA: [laughs] And it requires some strength of character as an organization as well. When you hunt elephants, that's a longer play. It takes more people. You've got to see the elephant from every side, and there's some risk involved with that. So it's building some of that internal trust that this is going to be the right fit for us; this is going to fit our mission. For Well Done, our mission is to do good in the world and work with clients who are doing good in the world. That's not a fit for everybody. Yeah, sure, we could – what's the other analogy? – shoot fish in a barrel, as long as we're on the hunting theme here. You could shoot fish in a barrel and get all of those little projects pretty easily, but it doesn't help an agency grow, and frankly, in my experience, I don't think it is satisfying for people that really have a passion for this industry. ROB: Lisa, as you reflect on your tenure with Well Done, but also leading into that, what are some lessons you've learned along the way that you might want to go back and tell yourself to do things a little bit differently if you were starting over? LISA: Some of it is really personal to me and my personality, so I'm not sure how helpful this'll be, but all the personality tests I've taken, I'm a driver, I'm a high D, Type A. One of the things I've learned along the way is the bull in a china shop method is really not effective. It really, really is not effective. It really is about listening and learning and creating a culture of mentorship. Up, down, sideways, we all have something that we can teach one another. I think when I stopped moving and sat and observed this agency – and that was really a gift, to have that time to do that – that was when I recognized that the sum is greater than the parts. I know it sounds kind of cliché to say that, but you've got to focus on people as well as profits. I get a lot of questions from our team about “How big is big enough? How large are we going to grow?” It's really hard to put a concrete number to that for someone like me. It really is about we will be too big when we can't focus on our people and also maintain a profit that allows us to grow. That's the best answer I can give. That's when I'll know that we've grown too large: when our culture and our mission start to suffer. ROB: That is so much the answer that I think is hard to learn and hard to articulate. Start with the mission. What is the mission? We actually had a situation where our team said, “We're too small to be the partner that we want to be for clients right now in every respect.” But that's part of the goal of the mission: to have a place to go to. If you're not doing it anymore, then you realize you're not on the mission and it's too big. LISA: That's really interesting. I know several companies here locally that have actually decided to downsize because they weren't able to provide what they felt was best. I applaud that. I'm at a stage in my career where it's really important to me to start giving back to younger professionals, and one of the things I tell the people that I mentor is to really understand how you define success. Success doesn't have to be creating a company that gets bought and you're suddenly a millionaire. For some people, that's exactly what success looks like. But for other people it really is having a tight, small team and staying in your lane and providing the service that is meaningful for you and allows that personal satisfaction. I think generationally, that is starting to change. I think the younger generation gets the fact that there needs to be some personal satisfaction and that the career ladder is not maybe as important as it used to be, and the focus on personal growth. That's something that, again, talking about listening, we try to understand as people come on board. What is your vision of success? What is your end goal? If you want to go from production designer to designer to art director to creative director, if we know that, we can help provide a better career for you and also know that you are interested in growing with us. But you know what? If you want to come in and do your job effectively, day in and day out, there is absolutely room for that as well, and we're going to try to keep you challenged. That's something as an industry I think marketing and advertising needs to come to terms with: people that just want to come and do a great job every day are still so valuable to the organization. ROB: Yeah, it's a very timely both challenge and opportunity. In this time, I think a lot of people have reconsidered what kind of role they want to do, and when and where. People who want to max out compensation can play that game, and some people who want to do meaningful work can play that game, but they might want to do it differently from how they were doing it let's say two years ago. LISA: Yeah, it's a totally different way to think about business, and that can be a challenge, to be that kind of flexible organization. And again, there are very large agencies that are doing it really well. It just depends on where you want to go and what your definition of success is. But I think to your point, it also is really important that we change the business mindset to fit the people that are coming into it. ROB: Lisa, when people want to find you and connect with you and Well Done Marketing, where should they go to track you down? LISA: Well, they'd better go to the web, because I just said that's where everybody starts. [laughs] The nice thing about our name is it's really searchable. Welldonemarketing.com is our address. If you're in Indianapolis, we say our door is always open. We're right next to a Mexican restaurant with great margaritas, so you can come and see us too. ROB: That's wonderful. I do recommend a visit to Indianapolis. I've enjoyed some time there, for certain. Thank you so much, Lisa, for coming on the podcast and sharing your journey and the story of Well Done. LISA: Thanks, Rob. It's been a really great discussion. ROB: Be well. Thank you. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

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A better life is not about taking more supplements or using gadgets and tools; it's about creating new and better habits.  If you want to know more about the science of sleep and how sleep affects our lives, then this episode is for you.    Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn how sleep affects our lives and why it is so fundamental to our health.  Understand that it's more important to change our behaviours and lifestyle rather than depending on supplements.  Discover the ways we can create the right conditions for better sleep.     Resources Get Dr Kirk's Sleep Remedy here!  Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  A new program, BoostCamp, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!  Listen to my other Pushing the Limits episodes:  Episode with Mark Divine Connect with Dr Kirk: Website I LinkedIn I Instagram I Facebook I Email  You can also get the free downloadable resource on decreasing stress before sleep here.   The Unbeatable Mind Podcast with Mark Divine Dr. Kirk Parsley - How to Supercharge Your Sleep Dr. Kirk Parsley on Sleep And Longevity Melatonin Supplementation with Dr John Lieurance in the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast.     Melatonin: The Miracle Molecule by Dr John Lieurance Dr Harch's Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy America's Frontline Doctors How to save the world, in three easy steps. from Bret Weinstein's DarkHorse Podcast   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? 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If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combats the effects of aging while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Episode Highlights [03:28] How Dr Kirk Started Working on Sleep Dr Kirk used to work for the SEALs. Later on, he enrolled in the military's medical school. After getting his degree, Dr Kirk became the manager of a sports medicine facility for the military. Here, he worked with other medical experts.  Those in the military will usually lie to healthcare providers so they won't get excluded from work, but they tend to be more honest with Dr Kirk because they have worked with him before.  After testing for vitamin deficiencies and adrenal fatigue, Dr Kirk realised that many of his patients were taking Ambien, a sleeping drug.  After learning more about sleep, Dr Kirk realised that every symptom his patients were presenting could be explained by poor sleeping.  [17:31] Sleep's Various Cycles With a sleep drug, you are just unconscious and not sleeping.  Proper sleep needs to go through a repetitive pattern of deep sleep at the beginning of the night and then REM sleep by morning.  The different cycles are important since they affect our bodies in different ways.  Sleep can help boost your immunity and memory! Learn more benefits in the full episode.  [20:12] How Sleep Affects Our Lives If you don't give yourself time to recover, sleep pressure can accumulate and have progressively worse effects.  If you go to bed with high stress hormones, this can worsen your sleep. Poor sleep then leads to higher stress levels, and the cycle gets worse.  People who get poor sleep age faster, not just in appearance but also in their physiology.  Poor sleep can lead to protein structure breakdown, decreased blood supply, aged tissues, and more.  As we age, we also face the problem of not repairing as fast. This is how sleep affects our lives.  [23:56] The Foundation For Better Health We are often taught the basics of health are sleep, nutrition, exercise, and stress management.  However, these pillars cannot function without sleep as their foundation, emphasising how sleep affects our lives.  For example, exercise becomes counterproductive when you're sleep deprived because you're not recovering.  Poor sleep can also change your insulin sensitivity and gut biome, which changes your nutrition levels. Because of how sleep affects our lives, it should be our priority. Sleep deprivation is the fastest way to break someone down, this is why it's used as an interrogation technique.    [28:35] How Do We Sleep? We need eight hours of sleep a night. Make your sleeping routine simple. The more complex it is, the more likely you will fail.  First, convince yourself that sleep is important.  We are all born to sleep, and we don't need to learn how.  Before electricity, people used to fall asleep three hours after sunset. Tune in to the full episode to learn more about the neurochemical process of sleep.   [35:36] Creating the Right Conditions for Sleep During sleep, our senses still work, but they don't pay as much attention to external stimuli.  For our ancestors, the sunset will lead to decreased blue light, decreased temperature, decreased stimuli, and increased melatonin.  Better sleep is just creating these conditions in our environment.  If we take melatonin, we should be careful to take only small amounts.  [39:20] Melatonin Supplementation Some have argued that melatonin supplementation does not downregulate our brain receptors, but there are no definitive studies on this yet.  In fact, measuring melatonin is difficult due to its quantity and concentration in each part of the brain.  It's okay to take melatonin supplements but not in physiologic amounts.  [45:15] Can We Reverse Aging? You need to understand your genetics and what ratios will work for you.  While good habits and supplements can improve your overall health, we don't know if it undoubtedly reverses age.  Our bodies are more complex than we think. Shorting yourself two hours of sleep can change over 700 different epigenetic markers.  We can only describe biology. We don't know how to manipulate it most of the time.  Dr Kirk also shares his experience with hyperbaric oxygen therapy in the full episode.  [1:03:36] Paradigm Shifts in the Medical Industry There is a lot of dishonesty in both the media and the medical industry.  Many doctors and medical experts have been silenced on potentially better cures, especially during this pandemic.  Western medicine is effective in treating the sick, but it doesn't keep people from getting severely sick in the first place. A lifestyle change is more important than taking supplements.  [1:12:22] The Importance Of Behaviour Change  People often don't want to work on their behaviour because taking medicine is easier.  We also need to be aware of how the food industry is tapping into our addictive mechanisms to keep us eating more.   Caffeine consumption can also ruin our sleep. More than 200 milligrams can give the opposite effect of staying awake and alert.  Learn exactly how sleep affects our lives, together with caffeine and sugar consumption, when you listen to the full episode. [1:19:40] Widespread Impressions on Sleep and How It Affects Our Lives People have grown to believe that sleep is for the weak and lazy.  This belief also impacts our children, especially since they are still developing.  Losing two hours of sleep can decrease testosterone and growth hormone by 30% and increase inflammation by 30%, among others.   Dr Kirk delved into researching how sleep affects kids after giving a lecture for American kids overseas to professionals in the school system. Kids' brains are still developing. The prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that allows us to simulate things, experiences a shift during adolescence. [1:26:34] How Sleep Affects Our Lives as Kids Dr Kirk delved into researching how sleep affects kids after giving a lecture for American kids overseas to professionals in the school system. Kids' brains are still developing. The prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that allows us to simulate things, is formed during adolescence. Furthermore, adolescents also require more sleep because of a shift in their circadian rhythm. Requiring kids to do more with less sleep interferes with their development. [1:31:40] How Sleep Affects Our Lives When We are Sick A new field in medicine called chronobiology is studying how sleep deprivation precedes any psychiatric disease or psychological flare-up. An Ivy League hospital managed to get their patients off medication by regulating their circadian rhythm and chronobiology. [1:34:34] It's More Than Switching Things On and Off Medications can be difficult to get off because they have too many side effects.  For example, most antidepressants are not just working on serotonin. Instead, they affect several neurotransmitters as well.  Physiological doses are artificial and can cause you more trouble.  Learn how sleep medication and affects GABA receptors that slow down the brain when you listen to the full episode. [1:41:17] Dr Kirk's Sleep Remedy Dr Kirk discusses how cavemen took around three hours after the sun went down to fall asleep. In the present day, what can people do in those three hours? To fall asleep, stress hormones need to come down due to lifestyle. Dr Kirk's Sleep Remedy involves getting the proper ratios of substances. His product comes in the form of tea, stick pouches, and capsules.  [1:46:27] Dr Kirk's Final Advice Change your environment by decreasing blue light and stimulation.  Learn to slow everything down.  Just like how you slow everything down to get a kid to sleep, so should you do the same for an adult.   7 Powerful Quotes ‘You aren't actually sleeping when you're on sleep drugs. You're just unconscious. Your brain is dissociated, but it's not sleep.' ‘Often, if you're sleep-deprived, more is worse for sure. You don't really need to do any exercises. You just stay active until you've recovered, and then you can exercise again.' ‘Insulin sensitivity is decreased by 30%, just by losing two hours of sleep. One night with two hours of sleep. So you go from sleeping eight hours of sleep to six. If you're pre-diabetic, you're waking up diabetic.' ‘Even though I'm known for sleep, the hardest thing for me to coach people to do is to sleep.' ‘The most sleep-deprived years are the most horrible years of the brain development.' ‘Get rid of the blue light. Decrease the stimulation. Lower your body temperature. That's sleep hygiene.' ‘Part of lowering stress is just slowing down your thinking. You can't work on your computer until 9:59 and get in bed in 10 and think you're gonna be asleep.'   About Dr Kirk Dr Kirk Parsley was a former Navy SEAL who went on to earn his medical degree from Uniformed Services University of Health Sciences (USUHS) in Bethesda in 2004. From 2009 to 2013, he served as an Undersea Medical Officer at the Naval Special Warfare Group One. He also served as the Naval Special Warfare's expert on sleep medicine.  Dr Kirk has been a member of the American Academy of Sleep Medicine since 2006 and consults for multiple corporations and professional athletes. He gives lectures worldwide on wellness, sleep, and hormonal optimisation. He believes that many diseases and disorders are unnecessary complications of poor sleeping habits. We can achieve the highest quality of life possible by changing this habit problem.  Interested in Dr Kirk's work? Check out his website. You can also reach him on LinkedIn, Instagram,  Facebook, and email.       Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can learn how sleep affects our lives and what we can do about it. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript of the Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by www.lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Well, hey everyone! And welcome to Pushing The Limits. This week, I have another amazing guest for you. I managed to get some incredible people. I have Dr Kirk Parsley with me. He is an ex-Navy SEAL, and also a medical doctor. A little bit of an overachiever, this one. He spent many years in the SEALs, an incredible man. He also was involved with the first sports medicine rehabilitation centre that was working with the SEALs, an incredible expert on sleep. And that's what we do a deep dive into today. We also talk about hyperbaric oxygen therapy. We also go into areas about the current state of the medical system, one of my favourite topics. And I hope you enjoy this episode. It's really, the most important thing is around sleep.  Sleep is something that all of us, I think, are underestimating its importance. And that this is the biggest lever, not food, not exercise, not meditation, not mindfulness, not anything else. Number one of all leverage points is sleep. So how the heck do you get enough sleep? What is enough sleep, and how to get it is what this episode is about.  Before we head over, I just want to remind you we have Boost Camp coming up. This is our eight-week live online program. There, Neil Wagstaff and I, my business partner and longtime friend and coach are doing. And we're going to, if you want to come and hang out with us live every week and learn everything about upgrading your life, basically, your performance, how to optimise all areas of your life, then we would love you to check the information out, head over to peakwellnessco.nz/boostcamp.  On that point, if you're also interested, come and check out our flagship program, which is our epigenetics program, where we look at your genetics, and how to optimise those specifically, all the areas of your life: your food, your nutrition, your exercise, your mood, and behaviour, your hormones, all these important areas, specifically to your genetics. One-on-one time with us and help us to understand everything about your genetics. It's an incredible platform and amazing AI technology behind us. And we'd love you to check that out.  Go to peakwellnessco.nz/epigenetics. Or reach out to me if you didn't get that. We will also have the links down in the show notes, if you want to just click over to that. Or you can just head over to my website, www.lisatamati.com. And hit the work with us button for our programs listed on there as well. So without further ado, now over to Dr Kirk Parsley.  Well, hi, everybody! And welcome to Pushing the Limits. This week, I have a superstar, who is a good friend of Commander Mark Divine, you may have heard previous weeks on my podcast. We have Dr Kirk Parsley with us today. Welcome to the show.  Dr Kirk Parsley: Thank you. I feel very welcome and happy to be here. I'm still here. I'm happy to be sharing this airspace with you or whatever it is sharing.  Lisa: I'm really super excited. I've heard you a number of times on Mark's show and just thought how hefty you're on because you're such an expert. We're gonna dive into a little bit into your background, but you're an absolute sleep expert. So I'm really keen to help my audience with their sleep, and their sleep patterns, and all of that good stuff. But before we get into that, we were just chatting about genetics and endurance. So, give us a little background. You've been a Navy SEAL. You've been in the military, in the naval military. So give us a bit of background on yourself, personally. Dr Kirk: Yes. So ironically, I actually dropped out of high school. I was a terrible student my whole life, didn't have any interest in school. And after you don't do well for long enough, you just convince yourself that you can't do well. And so you're just, ‘I'm just done. I can't do it'. I was always very physical, very athletic. Just fortunately, genetic lottery, I won, just be an athletic and strong guy. And it came pretty easy to me. But I worked hard at it because I didn't do school work. So when I dropped out of high school, to join the military and do the hardest training in the world. And that was what the SEAL training was supposed to be, as the toughest training in the world like, ‘Well, I'm gonna go do that.' So I went to do that.  This was a way long time ago. This is 1988. So, it was long before anybody knew what SEALs were. They didn't have the notoriety they have now for sure. And when I would come home from the Navy and tell people as I was a Sealer, like, ‘What do you mean, you work for SeaWorld or something? What do you do?' Kinda. So, I went through SEAL training, I would say I made it through SEAL training, I became a SEAL. That was pre-9/11, obviously. So we didn't have the combat that the SEALs of this generation do. So it's not really comparable. We were still mainly working in Southeast Asia doing police work and training other militaries.  I did three deployments. It was really the same thing over, and over, and over again because there was no combat. So you just did the same training, and then you deployed, and then came home, and you did the same training. And of course, I was like, ‘Maybe, I'll go do something else.' And I thought I would be—I was dating a woman who would become my wife. She was getting a master's in physical therapy. And I was reading her textbooks on deployment to make myself a better athlete. And I thought, maybe I could be a physical therapist. And so I started working, I started volunteering in a physical therapy facility in San Diego, called San Diego Sports Medicine Center. And it had every kind of health care provider you could possibly imagine. And this building, it's just this healthcare Mecca. It's the most holistic thing I've ever seen to this day.  I decided pretty quickly, I didn't want to be a physical therapist, but I don't know what else I wanted to do. But I got to follow the podiatrist around, and acupuncturist, and massage therapists, and athletic trainers, and conditioning coaches, and the orthopedist, and the family practice, and the sportsmen. I just got to follow them around and see how everybody worked. And a group of young doctors there, who were probably only five or six years older than me, and they were saying, ‘Well, you should go to medical school.' And I was like, ‘Pump the brakes, kiddo. I didn't even graduate high school. I'm not getting into medical school.' And then the senior doctor overhears the conversation. He comes out of the office. And he says, ‘Kirk, the question isn't, “Can you get in?” The question is, “Would you go if you've got in?”' And I said, ‘Of course, I'd go.' So, well, there you have it. So, he sort of shamed me into it/  I studied hard and got really good grades. And then when it came time to apply for medical school, this was pre-Internet, so you had to go to the bookstore and get your book review and look and see what schools are competitive for. And when I was going through one of those books, I found out that the military had their medical school. The military was a closed chapter in my mind. I'd done that. That's something that I figured I'd always do in my life. But it was never meant to be my whole life. And so I had done that. I was, I figured I was done. But I was already married and had kids. And I was like, ‘Well, the military will pay me to go to medical school. Or I can pay someone else to go to medical school and my wife can work while we're in medical school.'  I made enough to support my family and go to medical school for free. And then to pay off in the military's, they'll train you to do anything. You have to give them years of service and your job. So once you finish your medical training, you have to be a doctor for the military for eight years. And so I figured, ‘I'll get back to the SEAL teams, I'll go pay something back to the community that helped me, was hugely formidable in who I became in my life.' And went back to the SEAL teams, really well-prepped to do sports medicine and orthopedics. And I knew quite a bit about nutrition, and performance, and strength and conditioning. I was pretty sure I had the exact pedigree. When I got there, they had just gotten the money to build a sports medicine facility, which was actually their vision was exactly what I told you that I worked in in college. That's exactly what they wanted to build. I'm like, ‘I got this.' So they put me in charge of building this out. And I was a significant part of us hiring everyone we hired. So we hired our first strength and conditioning coach, our first nutritionist, our first PT, our first everything.  We built our own sports medicine facility. And then orthopedics was coming through every week, and they had to do rounds there. And we'd have pain rounds, pain management rounds come through. We had an acupuncturist coming through. And we hired all these people from the Olympic Training Center, and professional sports teams, and the best colleges. And so, we had all these brilliant people who knew way more than I did about what they do.  Lisa: So you went from there to there.  Dr Kirk: Yeah. And so at that point, I was the dumbest person around, right? Because we had all these experts in every little niche that I knew this much about. We hired experts who knew that much about. And so in the military, when you're the dumbest guy, they put you in charge, right and say, ‘Well, you manage this,' right? And so, I'm managing all these people who know more than I do, however that works. But my office was in this facility that we built.  The SEALs are a lot like professional athletes in that you put them on a bench, so to speak, right? Because they're injured, they need some help. So they can't work. It's the worst thing. Worst thing. So when they see a health care provider, they just lie because they don't want to be— Lisa:  They don't wanna be taken out.  Dr Kirk Parsley: They will take money out of their pocket, and go into the city, and find a doctor to treat them so that the doctor at work doesn't know, so they don't get put on the sideline. But because I was a SEAL, and there were still a lot of SEALs at the SEAL team. It was close enough to my time. There are still a lot of SEALs at the team who I worked with, and I trained with, and deployed with. And so they knew me. And I had a good reputation. And so they trusted me, and they come in my office and they say, ‘Let me tell you what's going on with me.'  They reported this litany of symptoms that didn't have any pattern that I could recognise. And so they were saying that their motivation was low, that they're very moody, that they couldn't concentrate. They're super forgetful. Their energy was low. Their body composition was shifting. They felt slower, and dumber, and colder. None of them were sleeping very well. They're all taking sleep drugs. They had low sex drive. They had a lot of joint pain, a lot of inflammation. And I didn't have the slightest idea. I'm like, ‘And I know it sounds like you're obese and 65. But I'm looking at you and you're not. So I don't know what's going on.'  I just started testing everything I could possibly test. I tested literally 98 blood markers. They were giving 17 vials of blood. Now just shotgun approaches, test everything, and see what's abnormal. And I started seeing some patterns. And they had really low anabolic hormones, so the DBTA, and testosterone, and dihydrotestosterone, pregnenolone. All of that was low. They really have high inflammatory markers. They really had poor insulin sensitivity for how healthy I knew they were, and how well they ate, and how much they exercised. But it's still within the normal range. But it wasn't. Everything was in the normal range. But everything that should be really high was just like barely in the normal range. And everything that should be really low, it's just barely inside of that range. They didn't have a disease. And I was a medical doctor, so I had learned how to treat disease, then they didn't have disease. So I was like, ‘I don't know. What am I going to do?' So that led me to having to train with outside providers. And fortunately, at that time, the SEALs did have the reputation. They'd already done all these amazing things. This was in 2009. So, I think they'd already shot Bin Laden and at that point. So I could call anybody, right? I'd watch somebody's TED Talk, read their book, I'd see them lecture. And I'll just call them and say, ‘I'm a doctor for the West Coast SEAL team. Could I come train with you? Can I consult with you? Can I ask you some questions?' And everybody was generous and said, ‘Absolutely'. So I get to learn a lot really quickly. I take a lot of leave from work and just go sit in these guys' clinics for four or five days. And just pick their brain, go see patients with them, and take notes, and learn. And then I just call them every time I have a question. And I just got to learn really quickly. It's like this team of experts who knew everything about the alternative world.  I was trying to treat people for adrenal fatigue. And I was trying to treat people for vitamin and mineral deficiencies, which are obvious from what was going on. And I couldn't quite figure out what it was. And about 100 patients into it, and probably after 30 guys came in, I could have told everybody, they could just sit down. I'll tell you what you're going to tell me. I could have just just route it off; it's so similar. And about 100 guys into it, embarrassing that it took so long, but I remember this guy telling me that he took Ambien every night. What do you guys call it? Stilnox, I think, right?  I was married to an Aussie, so I know a lot. I mean, I know you're not an Aussie, but I know a little bit about your world, as in your language. And I remember putting a note in the margin, ‘Seems like a lot of guys take an Ambien.' Then I go back through everybody's records, 100% of the guys who had been in my office were taking Ambien. So I thought, ‘Well, maybe that's an issue, right?' So, let me go look at the side effects of Ambien. And it was a fairly new drug. And the pharmaceutical industry, they get to cherry-pick their data. So they were like, ‘Oh, it's the safest drug ever. There's nothing, no problems.' And I'm like, ‘I don't quite believe that.'  Unfortunately, like every other doctor in America, I didn't know anything about sleep. I never had a single class on sleep in medical school, didn't have the foggiest idea what should be happening. I knew what you called a mechanism of action on this drug, which means molecularly what does it do. Well, it binds GABA receptors and has an effect called GABA analog, and benzodiazepines are the same, things like Valium. And so that's about as much as I knew, Well, what is GABA doing? What is GABA supposed to do? And then you can't really understand that without understanding what's actually going on in sleep.  Then, I had to learn about sleep physiology. And what's supposed to happen during sleep? And what are the normal shifts and changes? And what does that do? And if that doesn't happen, what effects do you get? So after studying quite a bit, I figured out the general Occam's razor principle of the thing with the least assumptions is, literally, every single symptom that these men told me about, could be explained by poor sleep.  Now, I didn't think that it would be, right? I wasn't naive, but it could have, then, right? So if this was definitely the most powerful thing, because being a Western doctor I wanted to give them Cortef and raise their cortisol. I wanted to give them testosterone and raise their testosterone. I wanted to get like, I wanted to give them medication to improve their insulin sensitivity. I wanted to just go in there and do it. But I couldn't do that, right? Because you can't give SEALs medication that they're dependent upon. Because then, what if they go out on the field, and they don't have their medication, they can't do their job and it's a waste. So that puts people on the bench, that disqualifies people. So I couldn't do that.  I had to figure out, well, what else can I do? So like I said, sleep seemed like the unifying theory. So let me see about that. And this was right around the time that everybody was catching on to the important vitamin B3. And that was associated with poor sleep. So, I tested all my guys. Every one of them had low vitamin B3. So I'm like, ‘Yeah, I'm going to give them vitamin B3. I'm going to be a hero. Everyone is gonna love me. I'm the best doctor ever.' And it helped a little bit. But it wasn't everything.  Like I said, I had this epiphany with this sleep drug. And once I learned enough about the sleep drug, you aren't actually sleeping when you're on sleep drugs. You're just unconscious. Your brain is dissociated, but it's not sleep. Because sleep has to have, as one of its criteria, you have to have this predictable sleep architecture. You have to be going through these sleep cycles that take you through these different stages. And a particular pattern is repetitive, and it's primarily deep sleep in the beginning of the night, and almost exclusively REM sleep by morning, and you have to do that transition.  If you don't do that, then it's not sleep. It can be partially sleep, if you're just getting poor sleep. But I was having these guys do sleep studies. And they were coming back with 99.9% of their sleep study being stage 2 sleep, which is just the transition. It's what we call a transitional sleep phase. So it's not deep sleep or REM. So they weren't really getting any of the benefits of sleep. And of course, that's an oversimplification. They're obviously getting something, or they'd be dead. But we don't know what they're getting.  That's all we know is that healthy sleep does this, and when you go through these cycles, we know these things happen. Like when you're in deep sleep, we know that's when you're the most anabolic, and you're secreting your anabolic hormones like growth hormone, and testosterone, and DHEA is being ramped up, your immune system's being ramped up. We know this happens. And then we know in REM sleep, what's going on in the brain: the physiological changes, forming more durable neural tracks, that neurological memories, shifting things from working memory into long term memory, pruning off useless information, these little buttons that grow on the side of your nerves that are starting to bud new information. You're like, ‘I don't need that.' You clean up all that. You get rid of weak products and you get the brain working better.  The whole purpose of going to sleep tonight is to prepare myself for tomorrow, right? Whatever I do today, that's what my brain and body are gonna think it needs to do tomorrow. It's gonna use today as a template to try to make me better tomorrow at doing what I did today. And if I don't get enough sleep, if I don't get to restore, I still have to do tomorrow. And how do I do that? Well, I do it the same way you do anything. I'm stressed out. I use Marinol and a bunch of cortisol and DHEA. And I start robbing all my nutrients for my cells. My blood glucose is going up, I'm getting fuel sources that way, epinephrine and norepinephrine stimulate my brain and my tissues to be able to get energy where there's really no energy there. And then I'm going to bed with these really high stress hormones, which are supposed to be low when I sleep, and then I'm trying to sleep with high stress hormones. Then, I get worse sleep. Then, I need more stress hormones tomorrow. And that's what breaks people.  In fact, when you see somebody who doesn't sleep well for even six months, they look so much older. ‘Why does he look old? That doesn't make sense. Is it just because they're tired? Is it tired old?' But if you think about it, you're born into this contract. You're born into this contract; you can't get around. It's just like you're born knowing you're going to die, 100% certain you're going to die. There's also this other contract that certainly is your body ideally worked for about 16 hours, and it needs eight hours to recover. That's the way it works. That's what you're born into. There's small variations there. But obviously, you can't get around that.  If you don't get those 8 hours, you didn't recover from those 16 hours. And so if you think about it logically, obviously, when you're a kid, you need more sleep. So it's not a great example, when you're really young. Kids actually sleep a lot more than eight hours by and large, but you see them actually getting better every day, right? They're growing. They're getting smarter. They're getting more coordinated. You can see that every day. But if you think about, say, like, once you hit 25, and your brain's fully formed, and everything's static. If you could recover 100% every night, and wake up the next morning as good as you were that other morning, you wouldn't age, right? There would be no aging because you would have recovered 100%.  Lisa: It's very important, yep.  Dr Kirk: Everything that you're deficient in, if you're missing 10%, you're going to age that 10%. And if you're missing a little more, you're going to age faster. So when you see people who haven't been sleeping well for a year, they are literally older because they've been recovering less and less every night. So yeah, there's a breakdown in their protein structure. There's decrease in their blood supply, their peripheral vascularisation. Their tissues are aging. There's a buildup of waste products that aren't getting out, and that's toxic. And that's damaging the mitochondria and forming more senescent cells, and all these other things, they're building up. And every marker that we have, even genetic marker, when you look at your children and linked methylation on the genes. Every marker, they look older. And then when you look at them, they look older. That's why.  That's really what aging is. It's really just the absence of being able to recover 100% every night. And as we get older, we just don't repair as fast. And that's, unfortunately, when most people quit sleeping as much. And now that's double whammy there. You're getting twice the aging effects that way. And there's no reason to sleep less when you're old. It's typical, but it's not something you have to do. I've had 84-year-old women who haven't slept more than 4 or 5 hours in 20 years, and I get them to sleep eight hours a night.  Lisa: I've got one over there who's rustling around, walking around behind me. She's 80 years old, nearly. Hey, mum. And she's struggling with sleep in the early morning hours. And therefore, you know her memory and things. So I want to pick your brain on that. Can I just slow you down a little bit because we just covered a ton of ground here. Dr Kirk: You just asked me about myself, and I just couldn't stop. Lisa: No, but you were on an absolute roll. So I didn't want to interrupt you because there was so many things, but my brain's just going like, ‘There's so many questions!'  Dr Kirk: That was just meant to be an overview.  Lisa: That was an overview. Now can we dive deeper into some of the weeds because now I understand why you've become, classically, the sleep expert because obviously that was the biggest leverage. In other words, this is the biggest leverage point that you see. When we think of the SEALs, we think of the SEALs as being these gods of amazingness that can do everything. But what you're saying is like these guys are pushing their limits: endurance, and in fatigue, and all things like that. And so they're going to be the Canaries in the Gold Mines in a way because they're going to be coming up against the limits of everything.  For you to say, as an ultra marathon, so I've come up against the limits in certain ways, like with sleep deprivation. And I sort of understand some of the things now that you were talking about. So you've ended up finding out that this is probably the biggest leverage point in anybody's life, basically, for their health is their sleep. So people, take a bit of a grip on that one. It's not necessarily the food or nutrition, it's the sleep. Would you agree? Dr Kirk: When I first started lecturing, I used to say there were four pillars of health: sleep, nutrition, exercise. And then the fourth pillar is audience dependent. It could be mindfulness, stress medication, it could be community, whatever it is that controls your stress hormones, and your emotions, and your mood, and all that stuff. Then after a while, I shift to there's three pillars sitting on the foundation of sleep. Because if you take the sleep away, none of those are going to work. There's nothing you can do. In fact, if you exercise when you're sleep deprived, it's counterproductive because you're not recovering. And we all know that you don't actually get better when you exercise. You damage yourself when you exercise. Then when you sleep, you recover, and you come back stronger. When you deprive yourself of sleep, you change your entire gut biome, you change your insulin sensitivity. You change everything here. And now your nutritional status doesn't work anymore. And when you don't sleep well, as I said, you increase your stress hormones. So you can do the mindfulness training and all of that stuff, meditate and all that, but you're just going to bring yourself down maybe to where you would have been if you just slept well and didn't do any kind of training.  It's really the foundation for everything. And I say that all the time. It sounds hyperbolic, but I'm 100% convinced it's true. There's nothing that you can do that will, nothing that will break you faster than poor sleep, and poor and insufficient sleep. There's a reason we use it as an interrogation technique.  Lisa: Exactly. Yeah.  Dr Kirk: There's a reason we break people down, intentionally, this way because it depletes all your resources. It interferes with your brain function, your willpower, your problem solving, your speech, your ability to formulate plans, your motivation, your mood. Everything goes almost instantaneously with one night of lack of asleep. Never mind keeping somebody up for three or four days in a row. They're just a mess. They're just in input mode. They just want you to just, ‘Tell me whatever I have to do. I'd do it. Then I'll sleep. Anything I can do to get sleep, I'll do it.' You don't have to rip people's fingernails out of stuff. You just deprive them from sleep.  Conversely, there's nothing that will improve the quality of your life and your performance faster than sleeping. Well, if you're an inadequate sleeper, which most people are. They don't even know they are. Everybody has these 30-day challenges and 60-day challenges. I'm like, ‘I only need seven days.' Again, one week where sleep is your number one priority. And you do everything right, and you get eight hours of sleep, at least eight and a half hours in bed every night, and you're sleeping approximately eight hours a night. And give me that for a week. And then, if you're not convinced this the most powerful thing, go back to wherever you're going. But nobody's ever gone back.  Lisa: A lot of us, I can hear people saying, ‘Yeah, but I go to bed, and I can't sleep. And I wake up at 2 am. And my brain is racing and I've been told to do some meditation. And maybe it's my cortisol.' Let's look now because if we haven't got the message across now that sleep is the number one thing that you should be prioritising about everything that you do, we haven't done very well for the last half an hour.  How do we sleep? What foods do we need to eat before we go to bed or not eat? What supplements can we take? You've got your sleep remedy that we'll get into a little bit. What routine can I do to optimise? What light-dark cycles? All of these things that can be leveraged points for us in optimising our sleep. And how do we test that we're actually in that deep-sleep phase? What are one of the best tools that you've found to work that out? So that was a mouthful, but yeah. Dr Kirk: So the first thing we need to do is get away from that phonetic question right there, which is what everybody's going through in their heads up like, ‘What about this? What about that?' And so my job is to make this really simple. Because simple things we can do, and the more nuanced your plan is around sleep, the more likely it is to fail. And we're doing big, macro movements here. So the very first thing is, what you said, I think we've already covered. The very first thing is to convince yourself that sleep is the most important thing. And to make it your priority for at least one week to get everything going.  Now, when I say your priority, I mean the true meaning of that word. There's only one thing there's nothing else, that's the one, including raising your kids, and your dog, and your exercise routine, and everything else. The most important thing is to sleep. The most important thing for winning. If you aren't quite convinced yet go to PubMed, or go to Google Scholar, or something like this, then put in sleep and anything else you care about: being a parent, mood, dating, sex drive, athleticism, strength, endurance, concentration, memory, I don't care. Whatever it is you care about—strength and this, strength and business, strength and I don't care. Anything you want.  Read to your heart's content. It will convince you that the one good thing about sleep, in the sleep sciences, it's not actually controversial. There's no one out there saying, ‘Oh, you don't really need to sleep.' Everybody agrees. There's nuances and people are different. Everybody agrees you need about eight hours of sleep a night. And just convince yourself that is the most important thing. Once you're there, that's the most important thing.  After that, recognise, ‘Okay. I'm going to make this my number one priority.' Recognise that you're born to sleep. You don't need to learn; you need to unlearn some stuff, right? You're designed to do this. And this should feel good. You should enjoy sleeping. You should usually look forward to going to bed and waking up in the morning, like, ‘Man, I feel so much better. I'm ready to go do my day.' This should be as easy as selling sex but it's not. People resist this forever. I have no idea why. It's great. Why don't you like sleep? I've always liked sleep. So then you just think, ‘Okay, when did sleep go bad for humankind?' Probably in the last seventy years.  Lisa: Yeah, when we got electric light.  Dr Kirk: That's about it, right? It's only been, really since rural electrification, right? Since they got electricity out to everybody. That's really when it started. When you look back in America just 100 years ago, look at people's journals in the winter, they spent like 14 hours a day in bed. That's a certain thing they do. So if you think about it, and just say, ‘I know this is simple. I'm going to let myself fall into it.' And then I'll tell you, there's all the sleep hygiene. You can get on the Internet, and you can find, ‘Oh, do this. Drink a hot cup of tea. Drink milk. Do this. Make your room really cold. Make your room really dark. Make your bed really soft. Make your bed really hard. And get a white noise machine. Get rid of all the EMF.' A million people are going to tell you all sorts of different things to do. And I'll cut through all the BS, and then you can pick and choose. The real answer is all of that stuff works, to some extent. All of that's important to some extent. The way I work with clients is at least 95% of all the successes is from lifestyle. And then all these little gadgets, and your mitigation tools, and supplements, and all this stuff back, that's the other 5. It's 95% behavioural. So you just look back, how did we evolve to sleep? Nobody teaches people how to sleep, right? You're born as a baby; you sleep. So how did we sleep as adults in cultures 100 years ago? Well, when the sun went down, we fell asleep about three hours later, and we woke up around the time the sun came up. It was pretty much that easy.  Okay, so let's reverse engineer that a little bit. I think most people know that blue light is a stimulus for being awake. We don't truly have a sleeping program. If you think of it like software, we don't have any sleeping software. We just have lack of awakening software. So we have things that go on in our brain and body that make us still awake and make us interact with our environment. And then when you take those things away, we're in what we call sleep. The blue light, actually, has nothing to do with the vision. There's nerve cells in the back of your eyes. It senses blue light. That's all they do. And then they fire pathways back to the circadian pathway membrane, essentially. And then the pineal gland secretes melatonin. The melatonin is a hormone, the starter pistol. It initiates all these cascades. And then one of the cascades that it initiates is the production of this peptide called GABA, capital G-A-B-A, gamma-Aminobutyric acid. And what that does is it slows down the neocortex.  When you think of the human brain, the picture of the human brain, we all have that big, wrinkly, massive crescent shape. That's what we call the neocortex. And that is how we interact with the world, right? All of our senses get processed in that, and then all of our movement is processed from that, right? So when we're asleep, all that's really different with our sleep, about in a general sense, right? There's nuances in every neuron and every molecule. And then, in the neural sense, there's a barrier between us and our environment is how it's phrased. What it means is we aren't paying attention to our environment anymore. Our eyes obviously still work, right? You can turn the light and you can wake somebody up. Our ears still work, you can make your noise and wake somebody up. Our sense of touch still works. You can shake somebody. They can roll into something sharp, and their pain receptors will wake them up. Heat will wake them up. Cold will wake them. So we still work. Everything still works. We start processing it. We're not paying attention to it.  What helps us do that is GABA. So GABA involves neurons. A neuron has what's called a resting potential. So there's like an electrical current in here. And when you put in enough electrical current, it goes like this. And that neuron fires. And then, does whatever it does and forms pathways. Well, GABA lowers that. Now, it takes more energy to make that thing fire. And you can overcome this by just putting a lot of energy into the cells. So if you've ever been exhausted, woken up exhausted, didn't get enough sleep for whatever reason. Like, ‘I'm going to go to work. I'm gonna come home. I'm going straight to bed. I'm gonna sleep 12 hours a day.' And then your friends talk you into going out or you get a cup of a drink. You stay up ‘til midnight, ‘I feel fine.' And then you suffer again the next day, right? Because you just overcame that.  You can actually read about this because this still exists, believe it or not, they're still I think 35 or 45 pretty large communities around the globe that have never experienced electricity. And they just lived like hunters and gatherers. They go out. And the men go out and hunt. And the women pick, and nurture their kids, and weave. And just when you think of your caveman doing, they still live like that today. And we study these people. And we did actigraphy. So it's not true sleep, say. It's just movement to know when they're likely to be asleep. And what we find is, the sun goes down. Again, the blue light goes out of their eyes. It fires, the brain starts secreting melatonin that leads to a cascade of 365 billion other chemical changes in the brain, right? But that initiation has to happen. Once that initiation is going, one of the things it does is secrete GABA, increase GABA production in lots of regions of the brain that starts slowing the brain down.  The sun goes down. They don't have electricity, right? The best they have is a fire. So what else happens? Their body temperature goes down. So when the sun goes down and it is dark, we can't see well at night, we can't see very far. So there's way less stimulus, right? They don't have flashing lights. They don't have loud music. So there's not much to stimulate them. So they sit around a fire. Maybe if they're lucky, if not, they just stare around the dark, and they have some quiet, calm conversations, and then they drift off to sleep.  That's all sleep hygiene is. That's it. Those three things: decrease the blue light, decrease the stimulation to your brain, and drop your body temperature. You need a cool place to sleep. One of the things that you can do to speed these things up is to concentrate the right nutrients in your brain. If you are going to take melatonin and just take a very, very, very, very small amount. You just want to initiate. You don't want to put so much melatonin in your brain that your brain doesn't need to make melatonin because then you start running insensitivity to melatonin, and now when you take it away, you don't have, you're essentially melatonin deficient because you've downregulated the receptors, and your brain is not sensitive to melatonin anymore. Lisa: Can I just stop in the first, one second. Dr John Lieurance is his name and he was on the Ben Greenfield podcast, and he's written a book about melatonin. And he argued that melatonin, interesting work, doesn't downregulate when you take melatonin, and doesn't cause that downregulation. All the other hormones do. If we take testosterone, we're going to downregulate our own testosterone, if we take right whatever. He said that they didn't. And he was advocating in his book for actually, super-physiological doses of melatonin. Certainly when you're doing things like jetlag, or whatever you're trying to reset, but also for a raft of other ailments to help with many diseases. Have you heard of his work or? Dr Kirk: I'm familiar with him and his work.  Lisa: Yeah. What's your take on that? Because I was like, ‘I don't know.' Dr Kirk: So, I disagree, obviously.  Lisa: Yeah. That's what I want to know. Dr Kirk: But specifically, so what he's talking about, 90% of his work is about the antioxidant. Lisa: Yes. Is it an antioxidant? Yep.  Dr Kirk: The studies that he's quoting are saying that melatonin doesn't downregulate. We don't know for sure. It's like, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. The only way we would know is if we could actually drop a catheter into somebody's brain and sample their fluid in their brain 24 hours a day and study this over months. And so we can't say for sure. We can do animal models. Again, it's hard to quantify because from the time the sun goes down, which is about three hours before you'll fall asleep, to the entire time you slept, until the sun comes up, you're looking at somewhere between 11 and 12 hours. That entire time your brain will only produce five to six micrograms of melatonin.  Lisa: Tiny amount. Dr Kirk: So how do we study, right? It's really hard to study, and you think of it in a mouse model, how much smaller the quantities are we're looking at that point. And the concentration of melatonin in each region of the brain is not the same, it depends on some cells in the brain can actually be stimulated by melatonin. It's somewhere. It's different. And same with GABA. GABA doesn't go to every region of the brain because it can stimulate regions of the brain. But what we do know, so first, I always go with, we don't know anything. We have research that makes us believe certain things are likely to be true based on the best science we have right now. So we don't know anything. And I believe that to be true about everything in science. Just wait a week, it might change. But what we do know is that every other hormone does this.  Lisa: Yes.  Dr Kirk: But if it doesn't do this, it's the only hormone in the body that doesn't. Pretty unlikely. But what we do know with 100% certainty is that it does downregulate melatonin receptors. Lisa: Right. Dr Kirk: It can take away melatonin receptors. If I normally have 10 melatonin receptors, and I go down to just having one, now even if I'm sprayed with melatonin, I only have one. And I have to have this supersaturation for this one receptor to do all this work. And if I go down to normal physiologic levels of melatonin and this one receptor, there's just getting an occasional melatonin coming by, I'm going to be, it's no different. It doesn't matter whether I'm not producing enough, or I don't have enough receptors, it's the same end result. You have to have melatonin binders stuffing pulled into the cell to have it function. Lisa: So can I ask one question there like, so for elderly, who, from what I understand, in my basic research on melatonin, is that their melatonin production goes down with age, and, therefore, they could benefit from melatonin supplementation. Is that a thing or? Dr Kirk: Yeah, I agree. And so what happens is that the pineal gland calcifies just like our arteries. And every vessel, everything in our body calcifies, right. That's sort of aging. Lisa: One of the majors.  Dr Kirk: And so it calcifies, and you do almost certainly secrete less melatonin, right? And again, the only way we would know is to drop a catheter into somebody's brain. But I'm not saying that you shouldn't take melatonin at all. I'm just saying you shouldn't take super physiologic. So his example of when you're speaking about the melatonin work earlier, right? His example is, well, this is a great antioxidant. Now, if I do these super physiologic amounts, there's all these benefits to it. Well, if I give you 10 times the amount of testosterone that your body ordinarily has, you're gonna feel fantastic. If I give you something that secretes a bunch of epinephrine and norepinephrine, like cocaine. And you have this huge rush of norepinephrine; you feel fantastic. And you're super productive, and your brain's really sharp. Does that make that a good idea? I don't think so. I don't deal with anything super physiologic.  Again, I'm the behaviourist, and 95% of all your health is going to come from re-approximating the way you revolt. This body takes hundreds of thousands of years to adapt to this planet. And now we're just like, ‘No, we're smarter. Like I'm a 35-year-old biohacker. I read a bunch of books. I know I can do it better than–” We know nothing about the body. Lisa: Can we all mean for people–we also know that people tend to die. If we wanted to extend our healthspan and their lifespan, but healthspan mainly, can we, with hormone replacement therapy, there's a raging argument: should you be on hormone replacement therapy, should you not? If you're wanting to optimise. Now, there's downsides. And you need to understand your genetics, and you need to understand all of those aspects.  There is benefits for us to taking testosterone or DHEA or all these things in the right physiological doses of, say, a 30-year-old, like, I'm 50 or 52, I want to be at the level that I was, say at 30–35. I understand my genetics, I know where my risk factors are. I can keep an eye on all of that sort of stuff. Can I all meet that so that I live and function longer? Because I think the core question here is how do we optimise? Yes, we've developed like cavemen but then they die at 70–80, as well. Can we extend that with the knowledge that we currently have? Dr Kirk: Well, so I don't ever promise anybody that I can make them live longer. I say, ‘You might live longer from this.' If you think about it, think about it this way: at first, we talk about what sleep does, right? And if we could catch up every night, we wouldn't age. So what are we doing when we're doing things like hormone-replacement therapy? We're doing metabolomics. And we're doing all sorts of supplementation around that, or we're doing artificial things like hyperbaric, and near-far IR sauna, and ice baths, and doing all these steps to stimulate the production of the thing.  Of course, now we have antibiotics, and we have all sorts of treatments to keep people from dying as young from certain diseases. So certainly, we should be able to either, probably add years to your life. But if not, definitely we can add life to your years, right? If you're going to die at 80 either way, one version of this, you could die hiking Mount Kilimanjaro, another one you're dying in a little chair in a nursing home. So I don't know.  The question is, even with the longevity work that people are doing, really smart guys like Sinclair and all these guys are doing all these things, and they're doing all these things with clearing senescent cells, we're doing all these things with peptides. And now I give my patients peptides for certain things. I don't know nearly as much about the longevity stuff as I'd like to. And we and we're reversing aging genetically, right? We're going in there and saying, ‘Actually, over the course of a year, with a lot of work, a lot of effort, a lot of tries, a lot of modalities, really focusing on your lifestyle and doing everything. Ideally, we can actually, probably, reverse your genetic age a little bit.' Are we actually reversing age? I don't know, we made your telomeres longer. The increased the methylation on your genes, and those are markers for age, does that reverse it? We don't really know, right?  Lisa: We haven't been around long enough to work it out.  Dr Kirk: Right. It's like with omega-3s. If your omega-3s are this, then we know that certain things go this way. Well, but if we supplement your omega-3s, is that the same as you having that nutritionally. Or vitamin B3? Is that the same? We don't know. We're thinking that it probably is. And we're thinking if we're reversing the markers we know for genetic aging that's making you genetically younger. But maybe there's some totally different information in there on aging that we don't know anything about yet. That's possible, too.  I think from what I know about you, you probably agree with me. I think epigenetics is more important than genetics, anyway. You have certain genetics and you change half a dozen things about your day, and your epigenetics are totally different. If you short yourself 2 hours of sleep, you change 735 different epigenetic markers from just 2 hours. All your pro-inflammatory ones are the ones turning on, and all of your anabolic ones are the ones turning off. And again–  Lisa: That's still the biggest leverage point, isn't it?  Dr Kirk: It's still a crazy complex to think that you can decipher what 735 changes in epigenetics mean. We have some ideas of what certain things, how does all that work in synchronicity, but even though we're the smartest animal on this planet, we still have a very feeble mind. Lisa: We're still dumb.  Dr Kirk: When it comes to understanding the complexity of our bodies, we can't understand the complexity of the planet, much less our bodies. And life is just this amazingly complex thing. We don't have systems in our body. We divide the body up in systems as a way to learn it so that we can systematically learn and we can test about the learning, but the body doesn't work in systems. Lisa: I have such an issue with it, too. It's nothing like the way that the medical model breaks us all down. Dr Kirk: The reductionist model doesn't work for life. And if you think about it, most of biology is purely descriptive. All of it is, we've come up with better and better ways to test things and look at things, and then we can describe what's going on. We don't know how to manipulate it most of the time. If we do, it's really clumsy. And it's causing 500 other changes because we wanted to flip this one switch this way. Then what are the downstream effects? We don't know. We'll find out in like 30 years after 100,000 people go through this. It's really clumsy.  I don't know if can I make somebody live longer. I'd never make that claim. But can I make people look, feel, and perform better? Absolutely. I can do it all the time. And me, personally, like you're saying, I just approximate use. Their arguments, there are people out there saying, ‘Well, these hormones will cause this or that.' I'm like, ‘Okay. If high estrogen levels cause breast cancer, why don't young women get breast cancer? Older women, they're the ones who are getting breast cancer, why?' That thing with men and prostate cancer, giving them testosterone is gonna cause prostate. No, it's not. If that were true, then a 20-year-old would have prostate cancer, and a 60-year-old wouldn't, right? It's a lack of this. And I think breast cancer is a lot like prostate cancer. What we know with prosta

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Boost Your NAD+ Levels: Healthy Ageing Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn about delegation and how you can utilise it to make the most out of your job. Discover the two different flow states that come into play when you're doing what you love best. Listen to a variety of enlightening stories that show how pursuing what you value can change your life.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to the Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes: #198: How to Prioritise and Reach Your Goals with Dr John Demartini Connect with Dr Demartini: Website | Facebook | LinkedIn | Instagram | YouTube Check out Elon Musk's interview on 60 Minutes. A new program, BoostCamp, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!      Episode Highlights [04:21] Achieving the Improbable No matter what obstacles you face, you will get up again if you have a big enough reason. Each of us has a set of priorities. At the very top is our destiny, which is non-negotiable. When you're pursuing what you value, you'll continue regardless of pleasure or pain.  By delegating low-priority things, you can go on pursuing what you value.  [09:20] The Importance of Delegation As long as you're doing your top priority, something that produces the most per hour, it doesn't cost to delegate. Delegation frees up your time so you can pursue something that makes more income. However, when you don't recruit the right person, you end up losing money because you're having to micromanage and getting distracted.  [14:07] Hiring the Right People  Do the basics, such as references and background checks. Dr Demartini specifically asks what applicants would do if they never had to work another day in their life.  If they don't answer something close to the job description, he turns them down.  Don't hire somebody who can't see how the job you're offering can fulfil their highest value. Tune in to the full episode to hear how Dr Demartini helped one of his applicants pursue what they value! [26:06] Job Security vs. Pursuing What You Value Dr Demartini shares a story about how he guided a young man to chase after his dreams. He sees this man eight years later, the owner of eight franchises. Many people stay in their jobs because of security. However, quitting work and pursuing what you value is your choice. Dr Demartini's recalls a time when he accompanied a ditch digger to work. He was so proud of his job, as he brings water—and life—to people. It doesn't matter if the job seems small, as long as you're pursuing what you value.  [44:30] Taking Pride in What You Do When your identity revolves around pursuing what you value, the higher your pride is in your workmanship. You'll excel in whatever you do, as long as you're pursuing what you value.  People who are pursuing what they value go beyond what is expected of them. Whether you start early or late, you can always begin pursuing what you value.  Master planning is a way to get there quickly. [46:26] The Neuroscience of Flow States There are two flow states. The manic flow state is a high that does not last long, as it is driven by the amygdala and dopamine. You get into your real flow state when you are pursuing what you value—something truly inspiring and meaningful.  In the real flow state, you're willing to embrace both pain and pleasure while you are pursuing what you value. Dr Demartini likens the two states to infatuation versus love. Infatuation is short-lived and only sees the positives; love endures even the negatives.  Manic flow is transient; real flow is eternal. [53:33] Finding the Middle and Paying for Quality You shouldn't get over-excited about good things and over-depressed about bad ones. Stay in the middle. Looking at the downsides isn't cynicism. It shows that you have grounded objectives. Dr Demartini's father, who is in the plumbing business, carefully considers all variables before taking on a project. As such, he charges more than competitors. People will be more willing to pay for your work once you explain what sets it apart from others. If you get defensive about your work, you start to sound arrogant. Instead, try to be informative about the value of what you offer. [1:03:32] Staying Stable and Flexible  Dr Demartini is neither excited nor fearful about the future.  He looks at both sides so that he does not become too elated or depressed. Emulating this can help you be stable enough to keep pursuing what you value. Over support leads to juvenile dependency, while challenges encourage independence.  Adapt and do what needs to be done. If you can't delegate it to others, learn to do it yourself.   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode [05:34] ‘Nothing mortal, can interfere with an immortal vision.' [07:00] ‘There's wisdom in not doing low priority things; there's wisdom in not pursuing something that's not truly and deeply meaningful to you.' [23:18] ‘Don't ever hire anybody who can't see how the job description you want can help them fulfil their highest value.' [44:37] ‘The pride in workmanship goes up to the degree that it's congruent with what you value most.' [50:26] ‘Fantasies aren't obtainable, objectives are.' [54:31] ‘If you're overexcited, you're blind to the downside.' [1:06:22] ‘People can be really resourceful if somebody doesn't rescue them.'   About Dr Demartini Dr John Demartini has been a public speaker for nearly 50 years. He is a world-renowned specialist in human behaviour, researcher, author, and educator. He empowers people from all walks of life by sharing his knowledge on self-development and financial wellness. One of his fields of interest is personal development where he has developed a curriculum of programs. One of his seminars, The Breakthrough Experience, uses his revolutionary techniques, the Demartini Method and the Demartini Value Determination Process.  If you want to learn more about Dr Demartini and his work, you may visit his website. You can also see him on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you were inspired to start pursuing what you value, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they too can be pushed to go after their passion. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript of the Podcast Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa, brought to you by www.lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: I want to welcome you back to Pushing The Limits. This week, I have Dr John Demartini. Now you may recognise that latter name. He's been on the show before. And he's definitely one that I want to have him back on again. He is an incredible teacher, and educator, and author of I don't know how many dozens of books. He's been working in the personal development in space for 50 years, I think. Incredible man.  I hope you enjoy part two of this very in-depth conversation about upgrading your life–how to grow your businesses. We talk about also how to reach your full potential. And what sort of things we put in our own way. So I hope you enjoy this episode with Dr John. Also, I would like to let you know we have a Boost Camp coming up. This is a, not a boot camp. It's all about upgrading your life. This is all about being the best version of yourself that you can be, upgrading everything in your life from your health fundamentals to things like sleep, and understanding your brain better your mood and behaviour. Lots and lots of science, and lots of information, and stuff that's going to be actually practical stuff that you can implement in your life to improve how you're performing your health, your vision and purpose in life. And aligning all of these things together.  I hope you'll come and join us. This is an eight-week program that is live with Neil Wagstaff and myself. Neil is my longtime coach and business partner. And he runs all the programs with me that we do with epigenetics, with running hot coaching, and so on. And he is an incredible teacher. I do hope you'll check it out. You can go to peakwellnessco.co.nz, peakwellness, p-e-a-k, peak wellness dot co dot NZ forward-slash boost camp, b-o-o-s-t-c-a-m-p. To find out more, and come and join us, it's going to be a fantastic writer and you're going to learn an awful lot and get to hang out with a whole bunch of people while you're doing it. So check that out.  I also like to remind you too, of our Patron program. We have a Patron program for the podcast to help us keep this on-air, keep us great content, to help us keep the mission going. If you're into doing that, please, for the price of a coffee or a month. Sorry, a coffee a month, you can be involved in this project. And you can also get a whole lot of exclusive member benefits for your troubles. So check all that out at patron.lisatamati.com, p-a-t-r-o-n dot lisa tamati dot com. Right. Now, over to the show with Dr John Demartini.  Hi, everyone. And welcome back to Pushing The Limits. I'm super excited to have an amazing name back again for a second round, Dr John Demartini. Welcome to the show, Dr John. It's fabulous to have you back again.  Dr John: Demartini: Yes, thank you for having me back.  Lisa: It's just–I was so blown away by our conversation last time. And I know you do thousands of these interviews and in the work that you do that you probably can't even remember what you talked about. But it was a real life-changing episode that ended up– we dived into some of your medical work earlier. We went all over the place with your breakthrough experience. I just felt like we didn't quite cover all the bases that I want to tap into your great knowledge.  Having you back again today, and today I thought we'd look at things like I want to dive into things like, ‘How do we achieve the impossible?' I've been doing a lot of work and researching around, what is it that makes incredible people incredible? And that they had the ability to overcome incredible odds and difficulties and obstacles in order to achieve some possible things. And I'm pretty much into a lot of the big thinkers out there. So I wanted to start directly if that's okay. How do we achieve the impossible, Dr John?  Dr John: Well, I don't know. Maybe that's a bit of a metaphor–the impossible is impossible.  Lisa: But yeah, it's a metaphor.  Dr John: Improbable, the improbable.  Lisa: Yeah.  Dr John: When the why is big enough the hows take care of thems elves. When you have a big enough reason for doing something, no matter how many obstacles you face, you get up again. And there was an interview. There was an interview by a gentleman I think from 60 minutes with Elon Musk. And they asked him after having three launches explode back to back. ‘You ever think about giving up?' He looked at the guy and he says, ‘I never give up. I'd have to be incapacitated.' Meaning that his mission to go to Mars is too important for any obstacle that might arise to stop it. I would say nothing mortal can interfere with an immortal vision.  Each of us, as you know, have a set of priorities. And the very top, top, top priority is non-negotiable. It's where human sovereignty and divine providence come together, where you feel that it's impossible for you not to fulfil your true destiny. I feel that way with my mission of speaking. I just felt that that was my destiny when I was 17. And I've been doing it 48 plus years now, be soon 49 in a few months. So if you'd have a big enough reason for doing it, you'll see the challenges on the way, not in the way. It's like Edison, a thousand ways to that didn't work for the light bulb to get the light bulb. There was no option about getting a light bulb, he knew he would come up with an answer, he just kept, ‘Okay, that doesn't work. Okay, next. That one doesn't work, next.'  When things are lower on your value, you'll do it if there's pleasure; you'll stop doing it if there's pain. When something's tying your value, you'll do it regardless of pleasure or pain. And you'll see both of them on the way, not in the way. So there's wisdom in not doing low-priority things. There's wisdom in not pursuing something that's not truly and deeply meaningful to you. People who do that build incremental momentum that reaches an unstoppable state, an inertia that's unstoppable. That's the key to extraordinary things. And when it's truly aligned with your value, your identity revolves around it, you feel it's impossible for you not to do it. It's not an option; it's who you are. Lisa: So this involves looking at your values determination, how to sort out what your real– because I think this is where a lot of us come unstuck. We have lots of things we want to do, and we're curious about lots of things and have lots of passions, and it's sorting out the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, in order, distilling down that vision so that you're actually hyper-focused and being able to concentrate on the things that you need to concentrate on. I know that's something that I definitely struggle with, when you have so many things that you're interested in. But you're really right when you say like, for me, with my story with my mom, if you remember bringing her back from the mess of aneurysm, there was a non-negotiable. We were doing it, and I was going to get her back or die trying was the attitude that I went inwards. That means sacrificing whatever it took to get to that place. And then we do get there, you know?  Dr John: Well, the thing is not to pursue low-priority things, and to know what those are, and say and delegate everything other than what's important. I don't do anything but research, write, teach. Those are the three things I love doing. But it's all about educating people in human behaviour. So that's the one thing that is non-negotiable that I do. Then I delegate everything else away. That way, you don't have to be distracted and run down. What drains you is doing low priority things. Lisa: Yeah. And this is a lot– yeah, this is a lot that a lot of people, especially startup entrepreneurs, and people that are just getting there, finding your way, are struggling with: the whole delegation thing when they don't have a team around them. What sort of advice do you want to give to people who are at the beginning of their career and don't have a team yet around them to help do all those aspects of it that are draining the hell out of their lives? Dr John: Well, what you do is you ask the question, ‘How is doing this action temporarily until I can find somebody to delegate it to helping me fulfil my mission?' Link it to your brain. Reframe its words. You see it on the way, not in a way, with the knowing that you're going to delegate it. And then, it doesn't cost to delegate. It costs not to. As long as you're doing what's highest in priority that produces the most per hour, it doesn't cost to delegate. Because you're releasing yourself to do the most important thing that produces the most income that produces more than the cost of the delegation, and that they can produce. And yet the person that would love to do that inspired to do that but doesn't have to be motivated to do that. They will spontaneously do it without even thinking about it, you can free yourself up. In 1982, end of 1982, I hired somebody to take care of my financial things: paying payroll, paying bills, bank reconciliations, all that stuff. Because I was sitting there in October of 1982. I was sitting there doing a bank balance, like, ‘What on earth am I doing?' I didn't want to do it. It was distracting, time-consuming. And while I was doing it, I didn't want to think about clients because it was interfering. I needed to get this done, and I'm pushing clients away. I freed that up, and I have not gone back, nor even seen a chequebook. That's 1982. Lisa: Gosh I would love that.  Dr John: I can't even tell you what a chequebook in my company looks like. Lisa: Or accounting or any software.  Dr John: I don't have any of that stuff. I have somebody that does that. That's their job. I– because that's a 20 to $50 an hour job. And why do I value my time? Well, I can make thousands per hour, and tens of thousands per hour. Lisa: But what about the people that can't make the ten thousands of per hour or the thousands per hour, and there's still a net, they're still in taking that leap into getting the first person in the team on board and the second person. I think there's a lot of people in that, jumping from, say, the $100,000 mark to the million-dollar mark of a turnover in a company where it's chaos. I think it's chaos beyond that as well. But it's that getting the initial, taking that risk when you don't have a solid income yet, and yet, you're taking a risk on hiring a business manager or hiring whatever, even assistants. Dr John: If you have a clear job description and you have a clear actions that you can do that can produce more per hour than having to do those things, and you can see, ‘Well, I'm doing five hours a day doing trivial. If I had those five hours, could I go out and close deals?' If you're willing to do that it doesn't cost, ever cost, to hire people.  Lisa: Yeah. So it's a mindset shift, really?  Dr John: Yeah. Because what happens is you think, well, if you're not going to be productive, and they're now, you're just going to pay somebody to do something you were doing, and you're not going to go produce more per hour than it's going to cost. But it frees you up to do something that closes a deal or makes a bigger deal. Makes more income. You're insane not to do it. Now, in my situation, I saw that if I was out doing presentations and taking care of clients, I can make more than tenfold what is going to cost, 20-fold to 100-fold what I was going to pay somebody to do it. It's a no-brainer.  It doesn't cost to hire somebody. Unless you do it ineffectively. You are somebody who doesn't love doing it, you're pushing him uphill, is not inspired by it, and you have the skill by it, and you're micromanaging him and you're having to distract yourself, and you're not doing the thing that produces. That's why it costs money. Not because of delegation, but inadequate delegation. Lisa: So in other words, recruiting the right people to your team is a huge piece of this and getting the right— So what are some of the things that you do when you're analysing somebody to take on into your team? What are some of the processes that you go through from an entrepreneurial standpoint? Dr John: Well, I do all the basics: references and checks and those things. But I just sit them down when I meet them if they get through the screening. I sit down with them. I said, ‘If I was to write a check right now for $10 million and handed it to you, and you never had to work another day in your life. What would you do with your life?' If they're, they don't say what the job is or close to it, I say, ‘Thank you very much.' I walk away.  Lisa: Right? Because they're not. That's not the key thing.  Dr John: That's not their dream. Can I share an interesting story? I don't think I shared this before. Sorry. If I had, just tell me, cut me off. When I was in practice many years ago, I was hiring a manager, and I was scaling up and delegating more and more. We were down to two people's potentials: one was a woman, one was a man. And the man was in for that evening, about five o'clock. I worked till six, usually, but at five, I was telling my patients, five o'clock, this gentleman comes in. He had passed much of the things I thought. But he came into my office. He had a little briefcase, is about 54, looks like a violator jet, this guy. He comes in, sits down on the edge of his chair, and he says, ‘Wow, this is a great opportunity. I've had the opportunity to work with your company would be fantastic. I'm awe-inspired.' I said, ‘Great. Hope you don't mind. But I just got a few questions.' And I had a check. This is back before I got rid of my checks. I got a check that my lady at the front organised. I had the check in front of me. And I said, ‘Your proper name is?' I put his name on the cheque. I wrote 10 million US dollars.  Lisa: It was a real piece?  Dr John: I didn't sign it, but I just put it there. I made sure he saw it. Because any facade he might have, if he saw a check with $10 million on it, his name on it, that's going to distract him. Because the infatuation of that's going to throw any facade that he might try to put on me, ultimately. So I said, ‘If I was to hand you this cheque,' and I showed him the cheque. ‘And I gave you $10 million upfront, and you never had to work another day in your life. What would you do?'  Lisa: What did he say?  Dr John: And he leaned back in his chair like this. He goes, he relaxed a second. He goes, ‘Wow, if I had $10 million. What would I do? I would manufacture furniture. I have a hobby. I love making furniture. I'd make furniture and open up furniture companies.' I said, I got up. I said, ‘Thanks very much.' He stood up and he was like, ‘What?' He said, ‘Well, did I get the job?' I said, ‘No.' ‘Do you mind if I ask why?' I said, ‘Very simple. I'm hiring you for a management position. You said if you had $10 million, you'd love to make furniture. If you're a great manager, how come you haven't managed your life in such a way where you can do what you love?' He just looked at me and he just paused because that's a very good question. ‘And I have nothing I could say, except, you just woke me up.' I said, ‘Thank you,' and I escort him out.  I watched him walk with his head down slowly to his car and sit in his car for a few minutes to just process that. He's like going, ‘Whoa. I thought I'm looking for a job. I'm enthused, I'm really excited, everything else. And I just got slammed with a reality check of what was really important to me. And the real truth was, is I love making furniture.' So he sat in that car, and finally slowly drove off and we ruled him out. We ruled the girl out. So we had to go through another round. Yeah.  Lisa: And so this is part of the process.  Dr John: Three weeks had gone by. And all of a sudden my assistant said. ‘Dr Demartini, there's a gentleman here a few weeks ago that was looking for a job. He's back.' ‘Alright, okay.' He said, she said ‘Should I just sent him back in?' I said, ‘Yeah.' I come down to the same office, same thing, comes in. I'm sitting in the same place, you sit in the same place. But this time, he walks in with a paper bag, a big paper bag, large paper bag with handles on. He said, ‘Dr Demartini,' shook my hand. He said, ‘Dr Demartini. I was here a few weeks ago,' I said, ‘Oh. Yeah, I remember you.' He said, ‘You changed my life.' I said, ‘How so?' He said, ‘When I was enthusiastic looking for the job, I've been looking for a job for three months. I didn't find one. I thought when you said, if I'm such a good manager, how come I haven't managed my own life? And you nailed me. I was a bit depressed after that, and I had a soul searching, and I had a conversation with my wife. Part of the reasons I was taking on jobs is for security instead of doing what I really love to do. And so after that conversation, I told my wife that and I said, “If I was to go out and try to build my own company in furniture manufacturing, would you endure the, whatever we go through to get there?” And she hugged him, and she says, “That's what you've always wanted to do. We'll make ends meet. We'll find a way.”'  He started his company. He started telling people he's there to make furniture and he started making pieces of furniture. He made a bed, and he made a dresser, and he started making furniture and stuff. He also made it available that he could do interior in homes that were being built. He started letting people know in his network. So he's back in my office three weeks later, and he told me that that's the best thing ever happened to his life. He says, ‘I've already got commissioned $5,400 worth of product with the furniture, and that's in three weeks. I'm on track, probably for making $10,000 to my first month now. And that's more than what I was probably going to get paid.'  I said, ‘Congratulations.' And this is what he said to me. He said, ‘You have no idea how much more energy I have, how inspired I am. I don't care about how many hours it is I'm working. I'm staying up, and I'm a different man. I'm loving it. I'm in, I now understand what an entrepreneur is, a bit.' And he said, ‘But this is what I want to do. Because you gave me such a gift. When I came in your office, I noticed the wood. Because you filter with your polar nuclei of your diencephalonic thalamus. You put, you filter reality coin, what you value most. So he noticed the wood in my office.  He said, ‘And I noticed that you had Kleenex boxes sitting on these little rolling carts. It would really be honourable for me if I could actually take those little Kleenex boxes, and melt my Kleenex box systems on your wall that match your wood. All you do is lift them up on a hinge, put the Kleenex box and pull the tissue, put it back down to replace it. And then you have more space on your thing, because I noticed you had less space on there than probably ideal. It really means a lot to me if I can put them in all your rooms.' I said, ‘I would be honoured to have those in there. And I want you to do me a favour. I want you to put your card on the bottom of each one. So I can, for referrals.' He said, ‘I would be glad to do that.' He said, ‘But that would mean a lot. Because you just changed my life.'  He ended up doing what he really loved to do, grew his business. I got complimentary things in all my rooms, which was an added bonus. But it just goes to show that people, when they're doing something that's deeply meaningful, truly inspiring, high in priority, they excel. So don't ever hire anybody who can't see how the job description you want to help them fulfil their highest value. Lisa: Be it personal and be it roles. And not this division of the company. Dr John: The actual actions. So you make sure you have a job description with all the actions and you ask your potential candidate: ‘How specifically is doing this actually going to help you fulfil what's most deeply meaningful to you?' If they can't answer it, don't hire them. If they answer with enthusiasm on all those things, you get them, grab them. If they don't, don't worry because they're going to be microman— you're gonna have to motivate them. Motivation is a symptom, never a solution to humanity. Lisa: And in changing that, I've got a friend Joe Polish. If you know Joe, he's a very famous marketing man and an incredible connector and so on. He talks about, he was talking about entrepreneurship one day, I forget the context of the situation. But he teaches about entrepreneurial things, how to do it. He's hugely successful. Someone said to him once, ‘You've had the same assistant for the last 21 years, for how many years, a lot of years. If she's been hearing you talk about how wonderful it is to be an entrepreneur to do all these things, how come she hasn't gotten that information and runoff and become her own entrepreneur?'  He called the lady over and he said, ‘Why is it that you still with me?' He knew the answer. But she answered, ‘Because I don't want to take on the risk. That's not my job. That's not my passion. My passion is to serve Joe and be the person in the backstage setting all those things up. That is my highest power. That is what I love. That's why I'm still here. I love working with Joe, and I love his mission. And that's what I'm happy doing.' That's the key, is not everybody should be an entrepreneur. Or everybody should be having the same mission. It's that she understands what her passions, what the job is. Dr John: If everybody was an entrepreneur, who would be working for him? Lisa: Yeah. We'd have a hell of a mess. And being an entrepreneur is a long, arduous, often difficult, lonely road full of holes, along the way, potholes. It isn't for everybody, but for people like you and for me, it's, I can go for it. I've got to be running my own ship. And learning from people like you is great for me because then I can see what helps my next steps and what I should be doing. Instead of—  Dr John: Can I share another story?  Lisa: Go for it. Dr John: So, right about the same time when I was hiring that other person, a young gentleman, late 20s, I'm guessing, mid to late 20s, came into my office, and asked if he could have a meeting with me. And he worked with Yellow Pages. There used to be a thing called Yellow Page.  Lisa: Yeah. I'm old enough.  Dr John: They were ads, telephone ads. You put a listing, it's free. But if you put a listing with a little box or a little ad in it, it's a little bit more. You bought the Yellow Page ad. So he was trying to sell Yellow Page ad. So he sat in my office. And he started to do this little spiel. And I had the time. So I took a moment to do it. Because I was curious what the prices were. And at the end of his little spiel, and not even to the end, three quarters through, I stopped him. I said ‘Stop. Just stop.' That was the worst presentation. That was so off. I said, ‘This is not what you want to do in life. What do you really want to do in life?' And he looked at me and he goes, ‘That bad?' And I said, ‘It was bad.' ‘I bet you haven't sold anything.' He says, ‘No, I haven't.' I said, ‘This is not you. What's your heart? Where's your heart? What do you really, really, really, really dream about doing in your career?' He said, ‘I want to be in the restaurant business.' I said, ‘Go to a restaurant today to get a job there, and work your way up until you own your restaurant.' He goes, ‘Well, I needed to hear that. Because I respect you and I needed to hear that from you.' And then I sold him a little audio cassette tape that I'd done, called The Psychology of Attainment. And he bought it, it was only 10 bucks.  He walked out with his $10 thing to listen to because I knew if he listened to it, it would encourage him to keep it going. He left there. Eight years go by, never seen the guy again. Eight years go by. I had moved to a new office. And I was on my way to go have lunch with my CPA. He picked me up. I came downstairs, he picked me up, took me to this little Super Salad restaurant nearby because we both had less than an hour to eat. So it's quick. Get in there and get a salad. You walk in and this Super Salad is a thing where you get a tray, and it's got a whole bunch of foods. And whatever it is they weigh it, and they charge you the acquired weight. So you get salad. You pay less if you get something with it.  As I walked in, and we started going to the line, I saw that young man grown up eight years older in this suit, talking to another man in a suit. And I said, ‘If you don't mind going get me a tray. And I'll catch up. I see someone I must say hi to.' I walk over to this guy. He's talking this man. He's not paying attention to me. I'm standing right next to him. And as he's talking I'm just standing there waiting for him to finish. All of a sudden he finishes, the guy starts to walk off he turns around as if he's going to say, ‘Can I help you?'  Lisa: Yeah, he didn't realise this.  Dr John: And obviously he looks at me and he goes, ‘Oh my god. Wow, wow.' He shook my hand, and ran off and got the other guy to come here, ‘This is the guy I told you about.' And he told him, ‘This is the guy.' And the guy said, ‘Oh, thank you. I'd love to meet you. He's told me all about you, he said you changed his life.' And I said, ‘Well didn't know until today. What impact– Lisa: What are you doing? Yeah. Dr John: But the guy told me, he says, ‘I have eight franchises. I come into my restaurant. That was the manager. I'm checking up on my restaurants and I'll go to the next one. I check them out once a week, I go make my rounds.' He said, ‘That day, I got me a job at Super Salad. I worked myself into a management position for over two years. As I was saving the heck out of my money, which your tape set said to do, I bought into the franchises and I got eight franchises.' Lisa: Jesus! Just from that one tape, that one conversation, see this is the impact– Dr John: I said to him, ‘You just inspired me.' It brought a tear to my eye to know that– because I thought maybe I was a bit tough on you. He said, ‘Sir, you did the most amazing thing to my life that day. Because the truth is, I wanted to be in the restaurant business. And now I am.' Lisa: Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new Patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing The Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our Patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody, and we want to keep it that way. But to do that, we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a Patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's p-a-t-r-o-n dot lisatamati dot com. We have two patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand, or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us, everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com, and thanks very much for joining us.  Lisa: You've encouraged him basically to have faith in the dream and to– because everybody else, like your family, often your friends, often are, ‘You can't leave that safe job.' I've had this conversation with my husband who's a firefighter. And he says like, ‘I can never leave the fire brigade because it's what I've always done. And that's how I've always, you know, it was my passion,' and so on. And I said, ‘Yes, but you don't have to stay there. That's your choice. Opt for security and– If you want security, if you want to do something, then do it. Life is short.' Dr John: All I know is that if you're not doing something you're inspired by, life can be pretty horrible. I see people. I didn't, I used to get, I lived in New York for a while. And we lived in Trump Tower there, fifty-sixth and fifth, right underneath Donald, so I knew Donald. So I live there for 29 years. And sometimes, you can take taxi. Sometimes, you take, when we're going in the airport, I got a limo. But just going around the city, sometimes I'd have a taxi. I get in the taxi and I– if there was a mess, sometimes I'd pass it by. I go, ‘No, smelly. No, no respect.' But again, in a taxi– if I'm in a hurry, it's hard to get, right? It's 3:30 to 4 o'clock march, I get in whatever I get, because I don't want to wait another 20 minutes. But I get it and I go, ‘How long have you been driving a taxi?' And they'll say a year, five years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, whatever it may be. I said, ‘Do you love it?' Some will look in the mirror and go, ‘Pays the bills, man.' And I said, ‘But do you love it?' He goes, ‘Are you kidding, man? If I got a thing in New York, you got to be nuts.' And they have that attitude.  Of course, the car is usually a mess. It's got ripped holes in it. It's got cigarette burns. It's got a little bit of an odour. You know it's not taken cared of; it's not clean. But then you get in another car. And, ‘How long have you driven a taxi?' ‘28 years.' I said, ‘Do you love it?' ‘I love it. I get to meet people like yourself. I meet the most amazing people every day. My father was a taxi driver. My grandfather was a taxi driver in New York. I know every city, every street, I know every part of the city. Here's my card. You want some water?' ‘Sure.' ‘Anything you need to let, give me feedback about my car, please tell me. If there's something not in order, if somebody left something there, if it's dirty, let me know. I'd like to make sure that everybody gets a good experience in my car. If you want to know about the city, you just ask me. Anytime you want to go anywhere in the city, you contact me. And there's my card, I will take you, and I'll make sure you got the best thing, and I'll be on time for you.' He was just engaged. And he loved it. And of course, I got his card. And I called him. And sometimes when I was going around the city, I would use him. He would even come back and pick me up. Lisa: And it shows you that it doesn't matter if you're cleaning toilets or you're a taxi driver or you're at the garbage disposal. Whatever job you're doing, do it well, for starters. That can be your mission in life, is to provide that service. It doesn't have to be taking on the world and flying to Mars like Elon Musk. It's just, do your job; do it well. I don't, I just– I have issue too, with people who just doing the job, getting the paycheck, not doing the job with passion.  You can tell. I walk into my gym and there's a new lady on reception who is just beaming from ear to ear, fully enthusiastic. I see her training; she trains like a maniac. She's just always happy and positive. When somebody comes into that gym now, they get a positive smiley receptionist. ‘Come in' and ‘How was your day?' The contrast to the other person that works at the gym who's surly looking, never smiles. And if you, say ‘Hello, how are you doing?' It's like, ‘Mmm.' And you think, ‘Wow, that is just the difference between someone who's just, “I'm so lucky to be here” and “I'm working.”'  Dr John: They're engaged versus disengaged. Can I share another story?  Lisa: This is great.  Dr John: Right. My father, I started working for my father when I was four. He owned a plumbing business. He wasn't a plumber. He's an engineer, but he had plumbers working for him. And my job was to clean the nipples. And they sound a little sexual, but it's actually, these little pipes and couplings, so it's interesting. But I used to scrape them out with a brush and oil them to make sure they would be preserved because they'll get a little rusty sitting around. Then, my dad would then, every once while, not every day, but most of the time, would give me the opportunity to go out with the plumbers to go on calls to learn plumbing. Everyone, so he would say, ‘Well, you're going to go with Joe today. You're going to go with Bob. You're going to go with Warren. You're going to go with…' And this one day, he said, ‘You're going to go with Jesse.'  I spend part of the day with Jesse. And Jesse was a ditch digger. He was an Afro-American man that was a ditch digger. And I said, ‘You want me to go with Jessie, am I going to dig a ditch?' He said, ‘Yes. I want you to go with Jesse.' I said, ‘Why?' He said, ‘You'll know when you get back.' ‘Okay.' So I go out with Jesse. We drive to this house that is about a 35-year-old house that needs a new water main from the street, the main from the street up to the house. And so he got a T-bar out, and he got a hose, and he got some paper, and he got a sharpshooter, which is a special shovel, and a little round-headed shovel, and a level and a string. This long string thing wrapped up on this piece of wood. And some, and another stick. The stick that had string around it where there are two sticks on either end. You could open them up unravelling. He stayed one at one place, stayed the other place, exactly where the line is going to go. Then he took a T-bar and went down into the ground to make sure there's no roots, no rocks, no anything that might interfere with the laying of a pipe. Then he watered it to make sure that you could go and if you dug it, it was just wet enough that it wouldn't crumble if you turn the sod over. And then he lined paper on one side of it. And then he showed me how to dig the ditch. I would go down to exactly the width of the sharpshooter, which is how deep it had to go. And then we would turn it over onto the paper. And that meant that the grass wasn't even cut, it was just folded over. Right. And we had a perfectly straight ditch. And then he showed me how to create the ditch with this other little thing. And it would go on top of the sides. It wouldn't fall off into the grass. It would just be on top of the paper, and on the inside. Then he took the level and he made sure that the grade was perfectly level from one place to the other because if you have a dip in it, water will sit there and rust and it'll wear out quicker. But if it flows exactly in line, you don't get as many rusting. We put this pipe down, pretty perfectly clear, perfectly graded. We levelled it, made sure it was perfectly level. We installed it to the house, into the main. We then put some of the dirt back over it. Put the sod back on, patted it down, watered it, squished it down, loosened up the grass so you couldn't even tell it had ever been done now. And we had a brand new waterline done. And when you're done, you could not, until you could walk around, you couldn't tell it was done. It was perfect. And then we got in the truck and started to drive off. And I asked, you know, Jesse, his name was. I said, ‘That was neat.' You know, I'm a young kid. And I said, ‘Call me J for John.' He said, ‘J, I have the greatest job on this planet, the greatest job a man could ever, ever, ever ask for.' And I said, ‘What do you mean?' I thought he's a ditch digger. He said, ‘Without water, people die. I bring life to people. My job is the most important job. They can't bathe. They can't drink. They can't make food. They can't do anything without my water pipe. I had the most important job on this planet. And I bring water to people. Without water people die.' And I thought, ‘Whoa.' And I came back and he said to me, ‘My job is to do such an amazing job that they call the office and complain that we never came.'  Lisa: Because they can't see where he's been!  Dr John: It's so immaculate. They don't believe that somebody came and they'll call and cuss out your dad. “Why is it not, why did you not do the main?” And your dad knows. Tell them, “If you don't mind just walk out. They will see that the main is there.”' They're unbelievably astonished that there was no mess and it's perfect. And he didn't tell us about Jesse, and the respect he does when he does water main. He knew that if I would go out there and learn from him, here's a man that does what he loves. Yeah, and he's the ditch digger. And in those days, you didn't make a little bit, you didn't make a lot of money. Lisa: And I love that. And it just reminds me of my dad. He was always cleaning up at the garden. He was a firefighter professionally, but he would be, every spare moment, gardening somebody's garden, cleaning up, landscaping, doing it. And he worked on films as a landscape artist and so on. He was always the one that was cleaning everything up, everything was immaculate by the end of the day. Whereas every, all the other workers were just, ‘Down tools. It's five o'clock, we're off,' sort of thing. Drop it and run. Everything was always a mess.  My dad, he always had everything perfectly done. And was, always came home satisfied because he'd spent, when he wasn't at the fire brigade, he spends his day with his hands in the dirt, out on the sun, physically working in nature, and loving it and doing a proper job of it. So yeah, it just reminded me because he taught us all those things as we were growing up too. And would take us and teach us how to paint and teach us how to, all of these things.  Dr John: The more something is high on your value that you're doing, your identity revolves around your highest value. Whatever is highest on your value, your identity revolves around. As a result of it, the pride in workmanship goes up to the degree that it's congruent with what you value most. Because you're inspired and love doing it. And it's, your identity goes around it. So my identity would rather revolve around teaching. So I'm inspired to do teaching. I can't wait to do it.  Whatever high an individual's values is what they're going to excel at most. And they are wanting to do it not because they have to, but because they love to. People do something they love to, completely do a different job than people that have to. They're creative, innovative. They go out of their way. They don't care if they have to work extra time. They don't care about those things because they're doing what they love. Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. I love it. You have some fabulous stories to illustrate the point. So whatever you're doing people, do it properly, and do it with passion, and try to get to where you want to. You might, this just takes time to get to where you want to go. You come out of school, you're not going to end up being near the top of your game. But you have to start somewhere and head towards what your passion is. I wanted to figure— Dr John: If you start out right at the very beginning, master planning, you can get there pretty quick. In 18 months, I went from doing everything, to do the two or three things that I did most effectively. I delegated the rest away. But my income went up tenfold.  Lisa: Wow. Yeah. Because you were actually doing the things that mattered the most. Dr John: Me going out and speaking and me doing the clinical work was the two things that I was, because that's the thing I went to school for. That's what I wanted to do. I didn't want to do the administrative or I didn't want to do all that other stuff. Hire people to do that. That freed me up. Lisa: Yeah, it's a fantastic message. Now, I wanted to flip directions on you if I could, and I've been doing a lot of study around flow states and optimising. How do we build into ourselves this ability to be operating at our best, which we've been talking a little bit about? What neurotransmitters are at play when we're in a flow state? How do we maintain this over time to remain inspired and not be worn down?  We think about flow state or I don't know how to put this into words, people. By that I mean, it's that state where you're just on fire, where everything's happening really well, you're at your genius place, your talents are being expressed properly, and you're just in it. I would get that when I'm running, or when I was making jewellery and I would, time would disappear, and I'd be just in this otherworldly place, almost sometimes. How do we tap into that? Because that is where we as human beings can be our optimal, be our best. Have you got any ideas around that as far as the neurotransmitters and the neuroscience of flow states? Dr John: Yes. It boils down to the very same thing I was saying a moment ago: not doing low priority things. There's two flow states though, and they get confused. Maybe people have confused a manic elated, utopic, euphoric high, which is a fantasy of all positives, no negatives in the brain that makes you manic. That flow state is a hypocriticality, amygdala-driven, dopamine-driven fantasy high that won't last.  Then there's a real flow state. When you're doing something that's truly inspiring and deeply meaningful, you get tears in your eyes getting to do it. You're not having a hypocriticality, you're having a supercriticality, where the very frontal cortex is actually activated, not the lateral but the medial one, and you're now present. It's the gratitude centre; it's grace. There you're in the flow because you're doing something you really love to do that you feel is your identity. That's where time stops.  Some people confuse a manic episode with that state. But a manic episode crashes. But the real flow state is inspired. That's when you're able to do what you love doing consistently. When Warren Buffett is doing, reading business statements, and financial statements, and deciding what companies to buy, this is what he loves doing. For me, I'm studying human behaviour and anything to do with the brain, and mind, and potential, and awareness. I'm that way. I can lose track of all time and just be doing it for hours. It's not a manic state. That's an inspired state. An inspired state is an intrinsically driven state where you're willing to embrace pain and pleasure in the pursuit of it.  You love tackling challenges and solving problems, and you'll just research and research or do whatever you're doing, and you just keep doing it because you won't stop. That's not a manic episode. Although manics can look similar, there's a difference. Though a manic state comes from the dopamine, you got a high dopamine, usually high serotonin, you got encapsulants, endorphins. But you also don't have, you're not perceiving the downsides. You're just seeing all upsides. You are blinded by little fantasy about what's going to happen. And that eventually catches you, because that it's not obtainable. Fantasies are not obtainable, objectives are.  Eventually, the other side comes in, and osteocalcins comes in and norepinephrine, epinephrine, cortisol, the stress responses. Because all of, all of a sudden your fantasy's not being met. But when you think you're going after the fantasy, just think of it this way: when you're infatuated with somebody, you're enamoured. You're in this euphoria. All you see is the upside, and you're blind to the downside. Actually, at this time, you say, ‘I'm in love.' No, you're infatuated. And then when weeks go by, and months go by, you start to find out, ‘Oh, I was fooled. That person I thought was there is not who I thought.' And you find out about this person. And that's short-lived. Yeah.  When you actually know that human beings can have both sides, and you don't have a fantasy of one side, but you embrace both sides, and know that they're a human being with a set of values. If you can communicate and articulate what you want in terms of those values, you now have a fulfilling relationship. It's a long term relationship. It's not volatile. It's not manic depressive. It's just steady. That's the one that's the flow. That's what allows the relationship to grow. The manic thing is transient. The real flow is eternal. Lisa: So it's the difference between being in love, and infatuated, and being in actual true real long-term love. Dr John: Well, infatuation, people confuse with love. If I have an expectation on you to be nice, never mean; kind, never cruel; positive, never negative; peaceful, never wrathful, giving, never taking; generous, never stingy; considerate, never inconsiderate. If I have a fantasy about who you are and I'm high because I think I've found this person, that's ‘Oh, well, it's all one-sided.' It's not sustainable. No one's gonna live that way. But if I have an expectation, if they're a human being with a set of values, I can rely on them to do what's highest on their value, and nothing more. I respect their value, I see how it's serving my value, and I can appreciate what they're committed to, and don't have any expectation except them to do what they do. They won't let me down. And I'll be grateful for them. Lisa: Why didn't you tell her that when I was a 20-year-old finding the wrong people in my life? Relationship-wise, are you going after the wrong types of people? Dr John: If you go after it a little infatuation, you have to pay with a broken crush. You never have a broken heart; you have a broken fantasy. Eventually, it helps you actually learn to go after what's in your heart. Lisa: And value what is really important. Gosh, wouldn't it be nice to have had never met a lot sooner? Dr John: There's no mistake, so much happened, because you wouldn't be doing this project. Lisa: No. Then this is what every piece of crap that's ever come your way in life has got an upside and a downside. Because I hear in one of your lectures talking about this: don't get ever overexcited, and don't get really depressed. It's always in the middle. You put it so eloquently, it was, whenever something good happens to you, don't get too overly excited about it. And whenever something bad happens to you, don't get overly depressed about it. Because there's something in the middle of there. You're not seeing the downsides of that good thing, and you're not seeing the upsides.  I've actually integrated that now into my life. When something good, I used to have this thing, ‘Oh my god, I have this breakthrough. I've had this breakthrough.' And ‘This happened to me.' And then I'll go and talk about it. And, because I'm a very open person and I found actually that's not good in a couple of ways. Because I'm overexcited about it. I've ticked it off in my brain almost as being happened. Dr John: If you're overexcited, you're blind to the downside. Lisa: Yeah. And you think it's already happened. Say you meet someone, new possible job, or it's a possible contract, or something like that. And you got all excited about it. Because you've got you've initiated the process, but in your brain, you've already ticked that box and got the job and you're off.  Dr John: Then you undermine it. And you said it's related about a job opportunity. You usually have it taken away from you. You're mostly unready for it. If you're really ready for the job opportunity, you're going to know what it's going to take workwise to be able to get paid. You'll already get the downside and your objective. And know, ‘Oh, that's gonna be 28 hours of work here.'  Lisa: That's not cynical, that's not cynicism. That's actually not realism.  Dr John: It's grounded objectives. People who keep grounded objectives don't have job opportunities taken away from them. But people who get elated about it, brag about it, talk about it, almost inevitably disappears. Lisa: Wow. Okay. And so you got to be looking at, I've elated— a couple of opportunities come up that are possibly I'm thinking about doing. I'm like, ‘That one's gonna take so much work in this direction. That means going to be the sacrifice for you.' And the old me would have just gone, ‘Yeah. Let's do it, jump in. And I'm like, ‘Am I just getting old or is this actually a better way to be?' Dr John: My dad taught me something as a plumbing industry. He'd have to, they'd say, ‘Okay, we're going to build this house. Here's all the plumbing that's going to be involved in it.' They'd see the plans. He'd have to do an estimate. What would it cost to produce all that, put that together? If he got elated and he didn't do his cost, by the time he finishes, he didn't make any profit. But if he does his due diligence and knows all the responsibilities, what happens if it rains? What happens if there's delays? What happens if the permits are delayed? He puts all the variables in there and checks it all off. He then goes in to the customer and says, ‘This is what it's going to cost.'  He said, sometimes the customer would come to him and say, ‘Well, yeah. But this other one came in at $10,000 cheaper.' My dad would sit there and he would say to him, he said, ‘I want to show you something. I guarantee you, the man that comes in at $10,000 cheaper, is not going to be thinking of all the variables. You're going to end up not having the job that we're going to do. Let me make sure you understand this. You may not hire me, and that's okay. But I want to make sure you're informed you make a wise decision. Because if you don't, you're going to go pay that side to save $10,000, it's going to cost you an extra 10.'  Lisa: Yep. Been there, done that. Dr John: Well, my dad used to go through it, and with a fine-tooth comb, he explained all the different variables. He says, ‘Now, what I want you to do is go back to the person that's giving you those things and ask them all those questions. If they didn't think about it, they're going to either not make money off you and they're not going to want to continue to do the work. Or they're not going to do a great job because they're losing money. Or you're going to end up getting a thing done, then they're never going to want to do follow up and take care of you again as a customer. So here's what it costs. I've been doing this a long time. I know what it costs. I know what the property is. So I'd rather you know the facts, and be a little bit more and make sure it's done properly. Then go and save a few bucks and find out the hard way.' Here's the questions they go check. They came back to my dad.  Lisa: Yep. When they understood that whole thing. And I think this is a good thing in every piece of, every part of life. It's not always the cheapest offering that's the best offering, which you learn the hard way. Dr John: I had somebody come to me not too long ago, maybe four months ago, earlier this year. And said, ‘I go to so and so's seminar for almost half the price of your seminar. Why would I go to your seminar?' And I said, ‘That's like comparing a Rolls Royce to a Volkswagen.' I said, ‘So let me explain what you're going to get here. Let me explain what you're going to get here. Then you can make a decision. If you want that Volkswagen outcome, that's fantastic. If you want a Rolls Royce, I'm on the Rolls Royce. I'm going to give you something about here.' And once you explain it, and make the distinctions, people will pay the difference.  Lisa: Yeah. And that's– in a business, you have to be able to explain to them as well. When I was a jeweller, when I started, I was a goldsmith in a previous life. And we used to make everything by hand and it was all custom jewellery, etcetera, back before China and the mass production and huge factories and economies of scale really blew the industry to pieces. For a long time you were actually in that hanging on to one of those and not transitioning into the mass production side of it because I didn't want to, but not being able to represent the value that actually what you were producing: the customisation, the personalisation, the handmade, and people wouldn't understand that.  You end up chopping your own prices down and down and down to the point where it no longer became a viable business. And that was the state of the industry and so on and so forth. But people could not see the difference between this silver ring and that silver ring. That one's a customised, handmade, personalised piece that took X amount of hours to produce. And this is something they got spit out of a production line at a team and other people are wearing. But people can't see the value difference. Dr John: Yeah, you have to, you're responsible for bringing it to their awareness. If you've been to a sushi restaurant, they have this egg that's in layers. I noticed that to get some nigiri with an egg on it with a little seaweed wrapped around it, it was like $4 per piece. And the other sushi was like $2 at the time. I thought, just an egg. Why would it be that much? And then I thought, and then I watched him prepare one, and how many hours it took to prepare one of those slabs of egg because he had to do it in layers. We had to loony take a pan, take an egg, poured in the egg, cook it just a certain level. And then lay that, scramble it, laid on top layer to time while it's hot, and layer by layer by layer by layer and cut it and everything else to make that thing. And I realised that is an individual egg-layered piece of egg. And I realised after seeing him I go, ‘That's a $10 egg.'  Lisa: This is cheap.  Dr John: I was thinking, ‘How the heck does he do that for four bucks? How did he make any profit out of it?' I never questioned it after th

Strength training is often associated with professional athletes who need to condition their bodies. However, the general public could benefit from it as well. It's not just people who want to bulk up who need strength training, either. Regardless of your age, sex, and occupation, strength training can have massive benefits for your wellness.  In this episode, Russel Jarrett joins us to share some insights from his 30 years of experience in the fitness industry. He talks about what makes an elite athlete and how talent is not the only determinant of success. We also dive deep into the benefits of strength training and optimising your fitness.  If you want to know how strength training can help you function better, then this episode is for you.    Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition, and mental performance to your specific genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training and coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com. We can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. 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Boost Your NAD+ Levels: Healthy Ageing Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Know what propels an athlete towards an elite level.  Learn the various effects of strength training on our bodies. Discover the importance of hormones to our health.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to the Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes: #187: Back to Basics: Slow Down Ageing and Promote Longevity with Dr Elizabeth Yurth #188: How to Increase Your Self-Awareness and Achieve High Performance with Craig Harper Connect with Russell: Website  The Australian Fitness Podcast The Future is Faster Than You Think by Steven Kotler Lifespan by Dr David Sinclair Dr Elizabeth Yurth's online course on longevity Kultured Wellness A new program, BoostCamp, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!      Episode Highlights  [03:10] Russell's Background Russel went into athlete strength and conditioning because he didn't want to teach.  He worked with various athletes in Australia for a long time while still working with the general population.  He has since branched out to several business enterprises related to health and fitness. [06:03] What Makes a Good Athlete Elite athletes have a strong belief in their abilities. They stay confident and driven, regardless of their performance. Some athletes are exceptionally talented and find a way to play at the highest level. Even if you don't have innate talent, you can improve. You just need the right combination of drive, dedication, and perseverance.  [11:22] Observations on Different Sports Athletes adapt their mentality and physicality based on their sport. For instance, footballers have high pain tolerance, while golfers possess intense concentration.     Endurance athletes used to think that strength training would inhibit their ability to do well in their sports.  Now, they're beginning to recognise the importance of incorporating the appropriate strength training for their sport.  Improvement of your form, minimisation of injury, and faster healing time are some benefits of strength training. Our bodies are predisposed towards either endurance or strength training. The key is finding the balance between what you enjoy doing and what your body responds to. [24:30] Strength Training for the General Public Strength training helps to prevent accidents such as broken hips when our body starts to lose muscle mass.  Women tend to avoid strength training because they don't want to bulk up. However, the more muscle you can maintain in your body, the better it is for your hormones.  Strength training also improves your quality of life and overall lifespan.  If you want a body that works better and feels better, incorporate strength training into your exercise regimen. [32:37] Optimising Your Hormones You're not going to see results from exercise and diet alone. You also have to consider your hormones.  Your motivation also hinges on your hormones, so it's crucial to optimise them first.  Strength training is a natural way to boost hormones, especially for women. The story of Russell's wife is a perfect example that training and nutrition are not the only things at play when it comes to our health. During menopause, his wife suddenly felt unwell and gained weight. Then, she dropped 10 kilos in 10 weeks. Listen to the full episode to know how she did it! [44:13] Bouncing Back From Life's Setbacks Training your body today can allow you to bounce back from health problems down the road. Listen to the full episode to hear about Lisa's amazing neighbour in his 60s who rapidly recovered from his hip operation! Russell had a client in her 40s who completely reinvented her body in three years. Russel's client soon became fit enough to participate in a competition called The Big Red Run.  [46:45] Taking Tiny Steps Towards Change You do not have to do everything today. Making small changes is better than overwhelming yourself.  Decide on a few things that you can commit to doing. Once you implement those changes, you will feel yourself getting better and wanting to improve even more. [52:35] Being Proactive About Your Health Lisa's husband is genetically three times more likely to develop Alzheimer's due to genetics. However, they actively mitigate that risk. Lisa shared a story about a man whose health was in decline at 65 but is now active again at age 75. Listen to the full episode for the details! Russell advocates for self-medication through exercise, nutrition, sunlight, and being outdoors.  Do your due diligence—do your research and take charge of your health.   7 Powerful Quotes ‘[Athletes are] not invincible, but I think that anyone who gets to the elite level has a mental belief, a strong mental belief in their ability.' ‘Good athletes and people that are considered elite have an ability to persevere when others might give up.' ‘Strength training pretty much is important for everybody in some way, shape, or form.' ‘If you train well and if you train consistently through your 20s, 30s and 40s, then your 50s, 60s and 70s will be a whole lot easier.' ‘It's not a disease model that we should be following. It's a prevention model. It's optimisation.' ‘You can't achieve anything in life, whether it's physical, or financial, or anything without dedication, discipline, and consistency.' ‘With your own health and what people are telling you to use or take or consume, you got to do your own due diligence.'   About Russell Russell has 30 years of experience in athlete preparation and training the general population. He has worked with the AFL, AIS, Cricket Australia, WNBL, and ABL. Today, he owns 24/7 fitness facilities and consults with clients from all over Australia.  He is also an educator and a speaker at different institutions. Furthermore, Russell built two registered training organisations and has coached hundreds of trainers over the years. He is a firm believer that physical performance improvement is for everybody.  If you want to reach out to Russell or know more about his work, you check out his website.    Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends, so they can understand the importance of strength training and optimising your fitness. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential, with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Well hi everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. This week, I have Russell Jarrett with me. Now Russell is one of Australia's leading strength and conditioning coaches, owns a number of gyms with his lovely wife Tara, and has also worked with many elite teams from the AFL, from soccer, from golf, to tennis. He's been around a while and done a lot of things. So you're going to really enjoy this conversation on strength and conditioning and how to optimise your fitness.  Before we go over to the show, just want to let you know that we have our BoostCamp live webinar series coming up on the first of September, it starts. It's eight weeks long, we're going to be doing a live seminar every week. You're going to be we're going to be learning everything around levelling up your life, basically. So how to age like a winner, how to reduce your stress, how to deal with all the things that are coming at us, and are overwhelmed today's society. We're going to teach you how to tap into your biology through your neurology. So we're going to be looking at how to optimise your sleep, health fundamentals, nutrition, exercise, all those sorts of good things, as well as things like circadian rhythms.  It's going to be a really good life program, basically. So we hope you can join us over there. If you want to find out more, go to peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp, that's boost with an -st. No, it's not boot camp, it's BoostCamp. We won't be making you do burpees during the webinar, I promise. So make sure you come and join us over there: peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp.  We also have our flagship program running, as usual, our epigenetics. This is all about understanding what your genes are about and how to optimise your life to your specific genes. Now we use it with lots of our runners. We also use it in the corporate sector for teams and leadership teams and building strong companies. We also use it for people who are going through different health crises and wanting to optimise their health fundamentals to help them through. So if you're interested in finding out about that, just go to peakwellness.co.nz. Okay, now over to the show, with Russell Jarrett.  Lisa: Well, hi, everyone, and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today, I have Russell Jarrett with me. Welcome to the show, Russell. Fantastic to have you! Russell Jarrett: Thanks, Lis. Good to be here.  Lisa: We have a mutual friend who's put us in contact, and we're very, very grateful. We're going to be sharing some good stuff around health, fitness, health optimisation, strength, and conditioning. That's your jam. Now you, Russell, can you give people a bit of background? You've got a hell of a lot of experience in working both with elite athlete teams and different sports, as well as, the general population through your gyms, and your studios, and so on. Can you just give us a bit of a synopsis on your career, if you like?  Russell: Yeah, sure. So it stretches back some 30 years now. I started like many other coaches do. You know, working on the gym floor and understanding what that environment looked like and felt like. Once I finished my physio degree, I decided I didn't necessarily want to teach. I moved into athlete strength and conditioning. That was an area which seemed to really raise my interest. I got involved in that. But back in those days, it was very much a part-time role and a part-time world. There wasn't really professional sporting teams as yet. So I had to then supplement with work in the fitness industry, and with general population.  I've always had one foot in either world, and I've worked with elite athletes in various sports in Australia for a long time. But I've also had my own business enterprises and studios or RTOs, and things like that, that I've used to provide myself with a stable career. Because one thing I have learned in the strength and conditioning world is that it's a great environment to work in. It's exciting. It's high pressure. It's always different. It's challenging. But it's unstable, and it can be volatile. Because as they say it's a results-based industry. So if the results aren't coming, for whatever reason, and that may or may not have something to do with what you do, it might not. But nonetheless, if there's a change in personnel, quite often you're part of that change. Lisa: That's so true. You know that that's what I love. You have to be flexible, adaptable, and being able to sort of go with the flow. When you're an entrepreneur, I mean, on this, similar sort of world, different but similar. You have to make that happen, basically, if you want things, if you want to keep in business, and you have to be good at your job, otherwise, yeah, people aren't going to come back.  I want to go a little bit into your experience with working with elite athletes for starters. Because I think it interests, a lot of my— so my listeners are endurance athletes, not everyone. Everyone's a lot of average, sort of people interested in health optimisation and being the best that they can be. My background is as an ultra-endurance athlete.  What is it that you think sets a good athlete up from a mindset point of view? Before we get into the strength and conditioning side of the equation, which is hugely important, but do you think that there's— like having worked with general population and lots of elite athletes, what is that some of the key differences that you see between the two groups, if you like? Russell: Yeah, look, I think when people start to figure out that they have a talent, or a gift, or an ability that is above and beyond what is considered normal, I think along with that comes a strengthening in their self-belief and their understanding of what they can do. That takes time. But there are still athletes that will, by their own admission, will struggle with their own self-belief and their own levels of doubt, and so forth. They're not invincible but I think that anyone who gets to the elite level has a mental belief, a strong mental belief in their ability. They know what they can do. They know what they're good at. They're obviously passionate about it.  Then I think for the elite athletes, it's just an ongoing evolution of that ability to stay focused, stay driven, stay hungry, and stay confident when perhaps their performances are suggesting otherwise. I think that's, good athletes and people that are considered elite have an ability to persevere when others might give up. I think that's probably one of the things I noticed the most. Lisa: Perseverance. Do you think there's a difference between— is the most important thing talent? Or is the most important thing, a never quit attitude and I'm gonna keep fighting a fighting sort of attitude? What do you think's more important? Russell: I think there's a combination there. I think it's different for every person. I think there's definitely athletes that are extremely exceptionally talented: Michael Jordan, NBA, Tiger Woods in golf, Michael Schumacher in F1. These kinds of people are supremely talented. They're just playing on another level. I think for those people, they probably don't suffer the same levels of doubt or stress than others might.  Now, on the same environment, you've got people who are not that talented. So there were people that that played in the same team as Michael Jordan, right? So there was a guy from Australia called Luc Longley, who was one of the pioneers of Australians into the NBA. Luc Longley was a seven-foot centre, who played a couple of seasons with the Chicago Bulls. Now Luc Longley, and he'll tell you this, was in no way shape or form as talented as Michael Jordan. But he still managed to play in the same team, at the same level, and win championships alongside Michael Jordan.  Now, it's not talent that got Luc there. So it's got to be something else. Obviously, he had some talent. But he obviously had incredible desire, hunger, dedication, perseverance. He had some ingredients that he combined with his talent to allow him to play at the highest level. So I think it's different for every athlete. Some athletes do their thing because they're in extremely talented environments. They're just freaks at what they do. Then there's other people that you look at in all sorts of sports, and they don't— Lisa:  —work your ass off.  Russell: Yeah, they don't look that athletic. They don't look amazing. They don't do extraordinary things, but they just keep going and they hang in there. They find a way to play at the highest level. It's quite extraordinary.  Lisa: Yeah. I mean, that's certainly my background, I absolutely had no talent as a runner. Absolutely none. Just for sheer bloody-mindedness got sort of pretty good at it. I think, that's why, for me to ask the question because for me, talent is, if you've got it, then you're bloody lucky. But even if you haven't, if you're one of those people listening that goes, ‘You know, I haven't got any genetic abilities and talents and stuff, but I really want to do it.' Well, don't give up on your dream.  I remember going to Millennium Stadium in Auckland with the Auckland University doing VO2 max testing and all that sort of stuff. They said to me afterwards, like, ‘If you're a young athlete coming to see whether you'll be good at endurance sports, we'd tell you, don't give up your day job. You're actually below average, below average.' Small lung capacity, very low VO2 max. I said, ‘Well, lucky, nobody told me that back then. Because then I wouldn't have gone on to do the stuff that I did.' That's the point now that just because you don't have the talent doesn't mean you can't. You might have to work your way around things, you might have to work twice as hard as the guy next to you. You have to be prepared for that battle. But I think you can.  Okay, so you've worked in the AFL, cricket. What other sort of sports have you worked with? And what do you see as differences between the sport arts as well? Any sort of insights?  Russell: Yeah. I've spent some time in the AFL, with Cricket Australia, I've worked with netballers, basketballers, tennis, and golf. Look, physically, all of those athletes differ because they adapt according to what their sport requires of them. So footballers have exceptionally high levels of fitness capacity, strength, endurance, agility, power. They're very well-developed and well-rounded athletes. Then you've got golfers who essentially are not always very athletic, although the sport is getting better. But they have incredible levels of coordination, incredible levels of concentration, incredible levels of focus. Because that's what their sport requires. So I've been lucky to work in different sports.  Yeah, you're right. I always see these little nuances between different sports and what they bring to the table. Footballers, generally have really high levels of pain tolerance, because to play at that level, it's quite uncomfortable. Whereas golfers have incredible levels of concentration and mental resilience. Because you can stand over a putt, which might be four feet long, but that one shot over four feet might be worth a million dollars.  Lisa: Wow. Yeah.  Russell: So you better make sure that you've got incredible focus, and that your internal dialogue is very calm and very measured. Because if you're standing over that putt worth a million dollars, and you're like, ‘I don't know, if I can do this,' and your heart rate is pounding, you're not in a good position to make that putt.  Lisa: Wow. That's a good insight.  Russell: Yeah, isn't it? Lisa: It is because, I've often looked at golf and thought, ‘Why the hell are they so high pay when you've got some triathlete, or Tour de France winner, it gets, a pittance in comparison.' And you're thinking, the training and the dedication and these dangers and all of that. You think that. So it's interesting to see that there is a different lot of things at play and it's the brain. I mean, I watched Docker last night, I love neuroscience. There was a great one just on Netflix, actually, and it was looking at how the neurons in the nervous system work. It was looking at a boxer and all the stuff that's going on in the brain. It was like, wow, there is different types of coordination, fitness, reaction, emotional control, all of these things play into this game that we are, whatever sport you're into, and into life in general and staying healthy.  One of the things that I found interesting, they were talking about ultramarathon runners having the blood sugar levels of a diabetic and I was just like, ‘Really? Is that why—?' Because I've been monitoring my blood sugar levels over the last couple of years, and I'm going, ‘What the hell! They're extremely high at times.' I'll be doing like an interval training session and fast, evening hours and I was up at nine and a half and I'm like, ‘Oh, my God, I'm diabetic.'  I'm now like, listening to that yesterday, now I'm like, ‘Ah, ultramarathoners trained their body to respond with huge amounts of blood sugars, and they're very insulin sensitive.' So actually, the opposite is actually happening. But if you just took that at face value, you just took that 9.5 measurements on blood glucose, you'd think, ‘Oh, my god, she's got diabetes.' So it's a really interesting world. Or when you're recruiting, you're doing a big, heavy weight, the neurons as what you're training, not just the muscle fibers, isn't it? Russell: Yeah. In fact, with a lot of strength training, and that's what people find, especially people who are new to strength training, they actually develop new levels of strength quite quickly. If you take a beginner, and they've never done weight training before, strength training before, you can actually get them quite strong within two to three weeks. They'll notice a difference in two to three weeks. Now, that's not a physiological adaptation in the muscular system. That is a physiological adaptation in the nervous system. So their nervous system adapts and changes much more rapidly. So that's why you see that rapid increase in strength. Lisa: At the start.  Russell: At the start. That's right. Then after a couple of weeks, the muscular system also changes and starts to catch up. Lisa: Wow. Is that also why you have a little bit of a plateau after your initial gains? And you're like, ‘Ah, this is great, I'm gonna keep improving,' and then you don't. Russell: Exactly. So the nervous system changes rapidly. Then the adaptation to the stimulus of that starts to slow, and then you get more physiological adaptation in the muscular system. So, over time, the process of getting stronger is a combination of those two systems constantly being stimulated and constantly adapting to the changing stimulus.  Lisa: Wow. What sort of changes Is this making our body like from a health and well being and in longevity and anti-aging sort of stuff? I'm heavily into actually, resistance work, weight training, it doesn't have to be heavy, heavy stuff. But you have to be doing weight training as far as I'm concerned. So I'm coming from an endurance athlete background, that's not, that wasn't, certainly wasn't the conversation until our company, we're very big on the strength, we're big on the mobility, we're big on the not overdoing the running, not doing the high mileage models and ignoring the strengths, which is, the world that I sort of grew up in, when I was, learning as a young athlete, ultramarathon running.  There wasn't a guidance for starters. I remember ignoring strength and conditioning completely, and the strength side of it. Now realising, that's actually the base gains, the biggest weight changes, like isn't weight loss, the biggest metabolic changes, the biggest form changes for runners, strength trainers, the stability, the lack of injuries, like all of these things are just huge parts of that puzzle, even for endurance athletes.  Russell: Yeah, you're absolutely right. Going back maybe a couple of decades, strength training and endurance athletes, they didn't really talk to each other. It really wasn't part of the picture. Lisa: Yeah. Detrimental to don't do weights if you're a runner. Russell: You're absolutely right, there was a segment of the endurance world that believe that if you're lifting weights, that you could damage or inhibit your ability to run or do endurance sports. We know better than that now. We know that it is absolutely possible and actually recommended to combine endurance training with the appropriate level and type of strength training to benefit endurance athletes, no doubt.  Lisa: Yeah, it's a great insight.  Russell: When endurance runners, runners or cyclists or triathletes, when they get stronger, provided it's done in the correct fashion, as you say, it actually has benefits to their running technique, to their running form, to the minimisation of injury, to their ability to recover. Everything improves when you're stronger. Lisa: Yeah. And anabolic as opposed to the catabolic nature of our sport, which is tearing stuff down all the time instead of rebuilding. We need— on that point as well, the whole ‘I'm going to bulk up' mentality, it takes quite a lot to actually bulk up and there's different types of strength training to reach different types of goals. And the other aspect I wanted to ask you about like I do genetic testing and epigenetics, and understand the different sort of genetic combinations. If I put someone who is strength-based by genetics, and I put them into super long-distance endurance training, I'm going to be mismatching their genetics.  How that worked out for me in my life was I did ultramarathon running when my genetics are actually built around high-intensity sort of medium weights in shorter episodes, or shorter duration is actually what my genetics want. I decided to do ultramarathoning because I decided to do it. But I didn't know that, actually, from my genetics, it's actually really important to be doing some weight training. It's actually important that I don't overtrain as in the long distance.  Now, my active career time is over. So I've gone now for longevity and things that are more important to me now. I've found that I'm a lot healthier, a lot fitter. My hormones are in better balance because I'm doing what's in line with my personal genetics. It doesn't mean I can't even run an ultramarathon again. I can. But I shouldn't be doing them back to back if I want to live a long time and not break myself.  Do you see that? I mean, you were— without going deep into the embryology and epigenetic side of it, but you got your ectomorphs, your mesomorphs, and your endomorphs as a broad categories. The endomorph population really, really benefit from strength training. Like it's really important. It's counterintuitive, especially for females and the population, because they think they're already bigger, stronger people. And they think that when they go to do weight training, that's going to make them like really massively bulky. What would you say to that? Have you come across that experience at all? Look, I'm in the weeds here. But— Russell: No, you're right. Certainly, people are more predisposed to certain activities, which is essentially what we're saying. So I'm an ectomorph. But my body shape and my body composition is more ectomorphic. I'm quite slight, narrow shoulder. I don't weigh much. But I do still strength train. But what we're saying here is that because I'm not sort of genetically gifted or predisposed towards strength training, it also means that I'm what we call a slow gainer or a non-responder. For me to put muscle on my body, for me to get stronger, I've got to do a lot of hard work and I've got to eat a lot of food. Because it's really hard. My body does not want to get bigger. But if I put a pair of shoes on a winter run, my body is very happy. So you're absolutely right. Now, with females, yes, there are people that are going to respond better to endurance work, and respond better to strength work. But I guess what it comes down to is, how do you then combine that predisposition to what it is that your goals are, to what it is that you enjoy doing, and to what it is that your body responds to? That's the I mean, if I had the answer to that Lisa— Lisa: That's your secret sauce.  Russell: Yeah. If I had the answer to that, Lisa, I'll be making a fortune. Lisa: Well, that's right. That's why I study epigenetics. It's really key or we work with different platforms but then technologies and stuff. But what I get out of it is that gives me the black and white information and then as a coach, then I can help you piece together the right combination. So if I've got someone who's like me or is more suited to shorter, high-intensity CrossFit style workouts for the one a bit of description, and they want to do ultramarathons, then I'll tailor their programs or our company will tailor the programs to fit that so that they can still do their goals but without wrecking their body. And that will be a lower mileage program than what it would be for you if I was training you who is an ectomorph, who can take more of the distance.  I think what's also important to understand is that strength training pretty much is important for everybody in some way, shape, or form. Especially as we get older and like when we hit our 40s and we start losing muscle mass naturally like that's what happens. This is where I see lots of runners especially our you know becoming like beef jerky, for lack of a better description, sarcopenic, losing muscle mass, then losing bone mass, and they may be cardiovascularly fit. They're not going to die of diabetes and being overweight, but where they run into troubles is with stress fractures and osteoporosis and lack of muscle. And that can kill you just as quickly as well.  I mean, a lot of people die of osteoporosis and breaking hips. You break a hip when you're above 60 and you're in trouble. That can lead to death. The stats for that is worse than it is for cardiovascular disease. That's just pretty scary when you start unraveling the whole bone. So it's really important for me to have people who aren't just endurance junkies, if you like, understanding, especially once I've hit the 40 and above that they get into that weight training, that they get into some strength training of some sort, at least. Russell: Yeah, with all my general population clients, if they are, if they are above the age of 50, I recommend to all of them strongly that some part, small to significant, but some parts of their weekly exercise routine has to include some form of relatively heavy strength training. Because if you want to look at one form of exercise that can improve your quality and length of life, it's strength training.  Lisa: We're on the same page. Yeah, and that's, you know, me coming from an endurance background saying that. And this is super important for a woman to hear as well, because I think women have a natural tendency, ‘I don't want to get bulky. I don't want to get muscular.' I can tell you now ladies, the more muscle you can maintain in your body, the better, the better your basal metabolic rate is, your human growth hormone. When you do strength training, you're going to up your levels of human growth hormone, which is going to help with your anti-aging, which is going to keep you younger, which is going to help with all of these different areas of cognitive, as well as physical, as well as sleep as well— every area of life is impacted. If you're doing heavy weight training, you go to sleep better, I'll tell you that much.  It's not just cardio, cardio, cardio, I think is the message that I'm trying to get across here. That's very important. Everybody should be doing a certain amount of cardio. It's absolutely crucial that we sweat, that we get our heart rate up and we do all that stuff. But it's the combination. In every decade where you go through, you basically need a new approach, I'm saying. You know, the ratios. We all need cardio. We all need strength training. We all need mobility as the other part of that conversation, which is your Pilates, yoga, foam rolling, all that sort of good stuff. Then it's the ratios that become different as you age. Then how heavy are you lifting and what body type do you have.  If you're a big, strong endomorphic body type, I can put some heavier weights through your joints, that's going to be good for you. If you're an ectomorph, I'm going to put some lighter weights, but I'm still going to put weights for you.  Russell: I did a podcast with Craig Harper the other few weeks ago, you've been—  Lisa: A couple times. Yeah man, he's awesome.  Russell: I said to Craig, ‘What I say to people all the time, “If you train well, if you train well, and if you train consistently through your 20s, 30s, and 40s, then your 50s, 60s, and 70s will be a whole lot easier.”' Lisa: Hell yes. This is gold man. Because the older you get, the more you have to focus on this. And the more you have to train, not volume-wise, but the more you have to focus on this and get that combination right because it becomes more and more important, not less and less important. And what I see when the over 50s, and 60s, and 70-year-olds is that they go, ‘Oh, I'm older now I don't have to do as much.' That's the opposite of what you should be doing. I'm older, therefore I can get away with less therefore I have to do more in the right context. I have, you know, a story. People who listen to my podcast know about my mom's journey. And she had an aneurysm five years ago, and she is at the gym five days a week. This afternoon, we'll be at the gym. We'll be doing weight training, and cardiovascular work, and coordination work, and yoga. Those are all parts of her rehabilitation. Now it's relative to her age; she's 79 years old.  Unfortunately, I didn't know all this back in the day. So I missed the boat in her 40s, and 50s, and 60s. And we've started in her 70s and coming back from a massive rehabilitation project, like, five years in now. God, I wish I had known what I knew then now. Like what I knew, what I know now, I don't, didn't know then because she would be in so much better shape. So now, I have to work that much more strategically in order to keep her where she is and to keep her moving forward into her 80s, and 90s, and hopefully beyond that. It's doable. Russell: Yeah, it is. It absolutely is. The understanding in the general population, in the general community, the understanding of our strength training is still poor. It's getting better because people like you and I are out there banging the drum saying, ‘Get strong. Lift heavy. Do your weights. You're not going to blow up. You're not going to give bulky. It's going to give you nothing other than a better, a better body that works better, moves better, feels better, functions better—' Lisa: —and dies later.  Russell: Exactly. Well, yeah, I mean, we haven't, we probably haven't come up with the anti-aging drug. But I think weight training is pretty close.  Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years, and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody. And we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's P-A-T-R-O-N dot lisatamati.com. We have two patron levels to choose from, you can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us, everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries, and much much more. So check out all the details, patron.lisatamati.com, and thanks very much for joining us. This year another aspect that I've been really deep in the weeds on lately is hormones. A study under Dr Elizabeth Yurth, and she's a longevity doctor and orthopedic surgeon in America, brilliant lady, love her to pieces. I just did one course with her and it was like what to fix first. She was like, ‘I'm not going to tell you to do the right diet or the right exercise program. The very first thing that I'm going to get you to do is optimise your hormones.' Your hormones need to be— if you don't have testosterone and estrogen in the right levels in your body, and human growth hormone, and all the other hormones, and the right combination, and the right thing, then you are not going to be able to exercise.  She said, ‘If I tell someone who's severely overweight in their 60s who hasn't trained before just to go to the gym and start working out and their hormones are in the gutter, they're not going to be able to. They don't have the motivation. Because hormones are related to motivation. They don't have the ability. They don't have the energy, all of these aspects.' So optimising our hormones is a really important piece of a puzzle. I think this is a new conversation that's starting to open up. This is not about whether you know, like, we're not talking about, you know, illegal anabolic what bodybuilders or whatever have traditionally done. This is about optimising your hormones as you age and we start to lose, drop our testosterone, you guys especially in the late 40s, 50s start to really notice a big drop. If we can actually optimise that. That leads you know— like I do hormone consults and stuff. This needs to be done under doctors or people that are specialised in this. But if you can get that right, then you're going to have the energy to go and do the right exercise and you'll be more likely to eat right as well. Because you won't be having this downward spiral because if you get your hormones wrong and you start to feel lethargic, you start to have less energy, less cognitive ability, and, and, and, and, and.  For me I'm actually like, ‘Right, how do we optimise people's—?' Or, ‘Let's have some conversations around this.' Because to date, it's either been, okay woman, maybe hormone replacement therapy. Okay, if they're going through menopause or something like that. For guys, it's only the bodybuilders who have been getting testosterone.  I'll tell you now, men, if they get their testosterone levels checked, and if you can work with a good doctor, and that's a big if, trying to find the right one to work with. And get them optimised for your age and for where you're at so that you're actually— because then you will age a lot slower. But it needs to be done carefully because you go the wrong way and you can end up with cancer. So you need to understand your innate pathways and all that.  Without getting into that conversation, but just getting into the fact that hormones are absolutely crucial. And we can do things to boost our testosterone naturally: weight training. And women, you need testosterone as well. That's where your estrogens come from, for starters. They come from progesterone, to testosterone, to estrogens. And men when you do, so the more weight training you do, and the more, you'll have more human growth hormone and more testosterone available to you. And doing things like sauna and things also huge, huge. Like you do three days of sauna, you're going to have a 1600%, I think it is, increase in human growth hormone for the next couple of days. Russell: You're absolutely spot on. About two years ago— my wife is 51.  Lisa: Wow. She doesn't look it.  Russell: Has always been really good with her diet, really good with her training, always strength trained, always been a strong lady, and fit. About two years ago, started to feel unwell, started to be, kind of a little unmotivated with regards to exercise. But she still kept fighting through it. And she goes, ‘I'm just going through a flat phase.' Anyway, long story short, started putting on a little bit of weight, which was unusual because her diet was very good, her training was very good. In 12 weeks, she put on 12 kilos without explanation.  Lisa: It's menopause.  Russell: Exactly. So got hit fair and square between the eyes by the menopause bus. But she went to three different doctors, and none of them were prepared to explain, or assist, or advise, or refer. They all said to her, ‘You know what, for your age, you're in pretty good shape. I wouldn't worry about it too much.' Lisa: Ah, this makes me so— Russell: Then one guy, one doctor looked at her and said, ‘Oh, you're an attractive lady. What are you worried about?' Lisa: It's not about attractive lady. It's about optimisation. When will the doctors start to understand that it's not about the disease? It's not a disease model that we should be following. It's a prevention model. It's optimisation. That's the change that's going to happen. I can see it coming. Keep going. Russell: She finally, we made some phone calls to some friends. We did some research. She stumbled across an anti-aging doctor in Melbourne who was in his mid-90s and was still practising.  Lisa: That says something about him already.  Russell: Right. And he sat with her for, I guess, an hour and a half. And he explained to her what he did and how long he'd been doing it. And he said, ‘No one will tell you this.' He goes, ‘No regular doctor refers to me or believes in what I do.' He then met her for sort of an extended consult in which she did three blood tests over the space of six hours. He then managed her hormone profiles and prescribed her some medication and some testosterone. She lost, without changing her diet, without changing her exercise, she dropped 10 kilos in 10 weeks.  Lisa: Yup. That's an extremely important story. Russell, I hope the hell that she's sharing that out in the world because I have to get her on and share that in depth. Russell: There's a lot more to that story. That's the brief version.  Lisa: I want the full version. You should get your wife on my show.  Russell: Lisa, it really upset me and it really made me frustrated, as I'm sure you've been through the same process. I've heard your story about your mum. It just made me really upset that our medical profession is so— not all. I don't wanna generalise, but a large percentage of conventional doctors are so far behind. They're so far behind. Lisa: They're so far behind, and this is changing. I mean I'm reading a book at the moment called The Future is Faster than You Think by Steve Kotler. Unbelievable what's going to happen in the healthcare space. The data that's coming, the AI and all this sort of stuff, it's exciting because it's putting the power back into our hands because we'll be able to have the diagnostic tools. At the moment, I'm frustrated and frightened too because this stuff I know about I want to get from my mum or for myself and I can't get them, peptides and all this sort of crazy awesome stuff. I'm a biohacker, I experimenting the hell out of myself.  I've just been, I'm going through menopause. I'm 52, I've gone through menopause. I started on a product called NMN which I'm now importing to New Zealand and I work with a molecular biologist in this area. And this is an anti-aging longevity supplement that Dr David Sinclair, who wrote the book Lifespan, you have to read that book if you haven't. So I've been on that now for seven months— eight months. I've reversed my own menopause. I was already aware. I'm already on TTA. I'm on progesterone. I'm on estrogen. I already am optimising. I understand my genetic risk factors so I'm on all over that because I don't just do this willy-nilly. People, if you want a hormone consult, I can do that. That's what I do now.  I'm the leanest, fittest, I'm not fit in the ultramarathon sense, I couldn't go out and run a 200k race like I used to be able to. But I wasn't fit then. I was fit in that one thing, but I wasn't— I didn't feel athletic. I was overweight. I was puffy. I was hormonal. I was up the walls. My body was in overtraining. Now at 52,  I'm leaner than I've ever been, I'm stronger than I've ever been, and I've got more energy than I used to have.  When I went, you know, the last few years have been pretty rough. I've had a rough life, with mum, losing my dad, and losing my baby, and spit some shit towards their way. And still, you know, like, okay, I've been through the wringer and I've had a few things along the way. But this is why it's so important. Because you're going to get that from life. It's gonna come, sooner or later, you're going to get smashed in the face. The more stronger you can make your body so that it bounces back if you have an injury, or sickness or a virus or whatever, the better.  I mean, I've just been through shingles the last four weeks, which has been bloody awful. But now I'm back, and I'm training, and I'm back into life, and I'm optimising. That's not surprising because the stress levels that I've been through and exposed to are the reasons why my body was hammered. So you can't always avoid these things. These things are still going to happen to you. But if you're strong and resilient, and you've got the right nutrients, and you've got the right training, you will bounce back 100 times faster.  I've got a mate up here who is 60, I think he's 65 years old, and he's a kitesurfer. Legend of a bloke. He's been a waterman. And he's just had a hip operation. Within two days he was out walking. Within three hours of the operation, he was up. And I see him all day, every day. Now he's on the bike. Now he's down there watching the waves. He can't get out there yet, but he's walking every day. Like, that guy's gonna come back and bounce back like nothing because he is fit and he's just raring to go.  That attitude, it doesn't matter that he's 65. He's a kickass athlete. You want to watch them kite surfing, I'm in awe of him. He's out there for three, four hours and the biggest scariest, like stuff I would never touch. I don't know where to start. This guy's just killing it or up our mountain skiing. You don't have to accept that, ‘Oh you're now 50. So it's time for you to settle down and get a bit more sedentary. And you probably put on some weight, and you're— that's just life.' No it isn't! Russell: No, that's right. You're absolutely right. I've got it reminds me of one more little story. I had a lady who sat with me in my office about six years ago. I'll paint you the picture. Early 40s, quite overweight, very unathletic, very inexperienced with exercise, very intimidated by the gym, poor nutrition. Like the classic sedentary person. Anyway, we started talking and I managed to convince her to just gently start something. I made some adjustments with regard to her diet because it was horrendous. She started eating better, drinking less sugary drinks, eating more fruit and vegetables, meats, eating less processed food, started training, then started feeling better, losing weight, started getting more excited by the process. Three years later, she competed in an event in Central Australia called The Big Red Run.  Lisa: Oh, yeah. I've done that. Russell: Yeah. Well, there you go. She covered, what was it, 160 something kilometres in four days.  Lisa: Amazing.  Russell: Just, this was a woman, when she sat with me, she couldn't run. She wouldn't be able to run more than 500 meters without stopping. In three years, she did the Big Red Run. In one day, she had to cover nearly 80 kilometres. Lisa: Yeah, that one kicked my ass. I ended up with a back injury and didn't make it. So I know how hard that one is. Like rain, it's hot— Russell: It's amazing. She literally reinvented her body in three years. Lisa: In her 40s. Not 20s.  Russell: Yeah. In her 40s, yeah.  Lisa: That is just gold. What an incredible story. And even for me, you don't have to— I had a lady on the podcast a couple days ago: Cindy O'Meara, nutritionist. She was teaching me stuff about numbers, and preservatives, and shit. And I'm like, ‘Oh, my God, you know. And that's even like a—' But I didn't have any idea of that level of information and how they feed them on plastic bacteria and put it in our food. I'm like, ‘Wow, this is just horrific.' But she said to me, ‘You don't have to go out and do everything today.' Just decide, ‘This week, okay, I'm going to eat a little bit more organic. This week, I'm going to go and switch out for my, you know, something organic, better chocolate.' If that's what you're into, and you want to eat chocolate, then you don't want to be having the cheap and nasty. Go and find a good one.  You know, so it's just, in other words, taking tiny steps and every day that we make those little wee changes and those little wee steps, don't overwhelm yourself, because then you'll chuck it in. You don't have to be perfect. It doesn't mean you can never ever have an ice cream again. It doesn't mean that. It just means that you're making these incremental changes in your life, and slowly you start to get better. We're all on this continuum of change. And I'd bet you don't need 100% perfect to train, 100% perfect. I have days when I have a ‘F-it day' and you know stuff. Because I've had a bad day and I know I've done it. And then I'm like, ‘Okay, well, you know that this happened. We'll get back on the bandwagon.' Russell: Yeah, yeah, look, you're absolutely right. We're not saying to people that you need to eat like a monk and run marathons like David Goggins, not saying that. We're just saying, as you rightly pointed out, just small adjustments over time, identifying, okay, if you're unfit, if you're not eating well, what are two or three things that you could change today that would not feel like we're making your life incredibly uncomfortable? What are just three things that you could change?  Eventually, you change them. You realise that it wasn't that hard. You realise that you feel better for it. So then you start looking for what else can I do? What else can I change? You know, what else can I optimise? Then over the process of three years, this lady completely changed and completely optimised to the point where you would consider her somewhat of an elite athlete.  Lisa: Wow, this legend.  Russell: Yes. It's a great story. But it just shows you, with dedication, with discipline, consistency, all those words, that they're not necessarily easy or pleasant, but they're irreplaceable, and they're critical.  Lisa: Yeah. And education.  Russell: Yeah. You can't achieve anything in life, whether it's physical or financial, or anything without dedication, discipline, and consistency. Lisa: Yeah. And don't over— then the big piece of the puzzle is don't overwhelm yourself. Just take it one step at a time. I'm studying cryptocurrencies at the moment because I can see the writing on the wall. This is what's coming at us is a complete new system, right? And I'm like at the moment, in that phase of like, ‘I don't get any of this.' Like, you must have been talking Latin to me. But I know if I keep reading, if I keep listening, if I keep on, I will start to pick up the terminology. I will start to understand that I know the process of learning.  I know that's how I learn languages. That's how I learn medical stuff. That's how everything I don't understand at the beginning. I don't worry about the confusion. I just let it wash over me. And then my brain starts to create these patterns of recognition. Then I start to get, ‘Hey, I understood what that person says,' and ‘Oh, I'm a little bit clever.' Then you're away and you're off to the races. Because then you start to become curious, then you start to become passionate. Then you're like, well, then it's up to you. Like how far you take that one. And that's how you do it. You don't go, ‘I'm going to sit down here and I'm going to study cryptocurrency for five hours today because that's what I'm studying.' That will blow your mind, you know? But if you just take that little bit. Russell: Absolutely. Lisa and I think as I age, I'm 53. As I age—  Lisa: Same as me.  Russell: Yeah. I'm trying to become more aware of where are my weaknesses, and I don't mean physical. Because my physical— because I've been exercising for 30 years. Physically, I'm in good shape. My blood pressure is fine. My body composition is good. My strength is good. It's all fine. I'm trying to keep my mind strong. Because my, I guess my internal fear is, at what stage in my life will I cognitively start to decline? I know it's probably going to happen. But I'm trying to keep my mind strong. Lisa: You don't need to, it doesn't need to. This is my area, man. Yeah, we'll have the talk offline. Yeah, there are lots of things. Like having brought my mum back from a massive brain damage, like she had hardly any higher function, I do understand what it takes to keep the brain going. You'd be doing a lot— I don't— because you've got a good diet and all that sort of thing, and you're exercising, those are two massive factors for brain function, you're much less likely to get Alzheimer's and so on. And with a bit of sauna and things like that, then you can lower the risk. And then you understand what your genetics and your predispositions, and then you can understand what to do to mitigate it, then you hop and things like that, like the hyperbaric which is the corner of my room, that type of thing, that will keep your brain function going.  We don't— I don't, I don't see Alzheimer's or any of those things. Because I have so many things in my war chest, if you like, with my tools that I can pull out. For example, my husband has a genetic, three times risk of the normal for developing Alzheimer's. So I bought him a sauna. I chuck his back into the hyperbaric. I watch it. I make sure he's getting good fats in his diet. I try to keep the beers down. That's the biggest struggle I've got with that one. He's training, and he's running 100 miles, and he's doing all these good things. So I don't see it even though he has a three times risk, genetically speaking. I can control that risk by a large degree, by the diet, by the exercise by the right interventions. So we're not passive.  When people— I just had another interview with another fellow Australian this morning, Kirsty from Kultured Wellness, lovely lady. And she had a dad that she talked about. He was 65, starting to cognitive decline. She changed his diet to keto, she started getting more exercise, doing all that sort of stuff. Now he's 75 and he's back teaching. And then he's fully functioning again. You don't need— you can't just go to the doctor and they'll give you a magic anti-Alzheimer's pill. There's nothing there yet. They are working on stuff. They've got some things that can slow things down. But don't rely on that. Bet on the lifestyle, and intervention, and this training, and the diet, and all of those sorts of things that you can control and you might not even develop it. Russell: Yeah, well my goal is with my training, exercise and nutrition, is to self-manage my health. Because I just feel that if I can avoid interaction, If I can avoid the need to be a part of the medical system, then I'm okay.  Lisa: I'm desperate to be apart, away from.  Russell: I don't want to have to rely on a doctor, or a hospital, or a treatment, or a drug. I don't want to. I want to self-medicate through exercise, nutrition, reading, learning, being outdoors, sunlight, all of this stuff. I want to self-medicate for as long as I can. Lisa: That's the one. That's the one. If we have an accident we'll be very glad for their brilliant abilities, plastic surgeries. Not saying that they're brilliant, absolutely brilliant. What we're falling down is in the chronic disease management. Russell: Yeah, but I also feel, Lis, that it's my responsibility to manage my own health. I don't— It's not up to the doctors and the nurses. I want them to be looking after truly sick people who are injured, or unwell, or have cancer, or— I don't want to give them like, ‘Don't look after me. I'll do it myself.' If one day, I fall over and break a leg or do something stupid, then I'll need your help. But until then, I'm happy for them to look after people that really need them. And I'll look after me. Lisa: Yeah. And this is, even from a macro perspective, we'll wind it up in a second, but I'm loving this, but the social, you know, from an economic point of view, if they understood that if they were educating people, then there would be less load on the health system. I mean what's coming at the health system, as far as diabetes, when you look at our teenagers and our children who are already obese, who are already pre-diabetic in some cases, who have all sorts of hormonal issues, and what's coming 20 years down the line when they reach their 40s and 50s. Oh, Crikey, we're in for a hard ride, then. From an economic, macro-economic standpoint.  Even in the slight, you know, the latest COVID situation, started again, but why is there not a bigger conversation around boosting your immune system so that if you do happen to get it, that you're at least able to cope? Because people with comorbidities that are least likely to come out the other side, or to come out with some serious— not always, it's a part of it's a genetic thing. But also, let's be proactive again. Let's take your vitamin D on full load. Let's look at the, you know, magnesium and vitamin C's at the school. It's a simple, easy things that we can do to boost our immunity, it's lower stress levels, it's try and do all of it. Then we might, if we are unlucky enough to get hit with it, maybe we'll be able to come out the other side without, you know, dying or having some long-term consequences. Hopefully. Where is that conversation? Russell: Well, sadly, Lis, we're not having that conversation. The simple reason for that, and I don't want to sound sceptical, but it possibly may, there's no money in healthy people. But there's a lot of money, there's a lot of money to be made, when your population is unwell and sick. And unfortunately, we're fighting big, big organisations that make a lot of money when people are unwell. Lisa: Yeah, that's just the truth. When you're on a, even a blood pressure medication or something like that, that you're on for life, that's a hell of a lot better than them giving you something that actually might fix it and you're off it in two weeks' time. That's why there's no money going into antivirals, medications and things because you'll be on it for a couple of weeks, and then it's over. So they can't really make money. Well, they can't make money out of repurposing drugs that are off-patent. You know, get into the bloody weeds on that stuff.  I think what's important for us to do is just to shine a light on the positive things that we have been through and be proactive. And be aware that there are forces at play that are not always got your best interests at heart, not to just accept whatever is dished up to you. Go and do your own research. Go and talk to this. Listen to the scientists. Listen to people who are really educated in the space. That's not me and it's not you. But I listen to the people who are at the top of this game, and then I make my decisions over what I do. We won't always get it right. But make your own mind up and be responsible for your own as best you can. There'll always be a left-field thing. The shingles came out of me even though I'm on all the right things and doing the right things. Because probably I've got too much stress in my life. And I take accountability for that and trying to mitigate that which I'm trying to do. Russell: My summary to all of that is with your own health and what people are telling you to use or take or consume, you got to do your own due diligence.  Lisa: Always, always. Hey, Russell, you've been absolutely magnificent. I want to have you back on. I'd love to talk to your wife about her journey too at some point because yeah, really excited to meet you to have you on the show. It's been a real honour. Another you know, like-minded person, keep fighting the battle. Right?  Russell: That's it, it's been great. I really appreciate you having me. Thank you, Lisa.  Lisa: And where do people go to if they want to find out more about you, what you do? Russell: The best place to just go to my website where you can understand what I do, what I've done, who I work with, and how you can connect and it's just www.russelljarrett.com.au Lisa: www.russelljarrett.com.au. We'll put that in the show notes people. Check it out and we'll see you on the other side. That's it this week for Pushing the Limits. Be sure to rate, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.

We regularly buy our food from markets without a second thought. But to take charge of our health and nutrition, we have to ask: are these foods really good for us?  From produce to sauces, our food can be chock-full of harmful chemicals without us knowing about it. Even if you are a more conscious shopper, the industry labels ingredients to take on deceptively natural-sounding names. Fresh produce can also be laden with pesticides. So, how can we be more discerning about our food?  Celebrity nutritionist Cyndi O'Meara joins us in this episode to discuss how we can watch out for harmful foods. She shares how food production and supply have changed drastically over the years. Her advice? Check the label. She also recommends being a nutrition activist by taking matters into your own hands and doing your own research.  If you want to know more about eating real food for wellness, then this episode is for you!    Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition, and mental performance to your specific genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? 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Boost Your NAD+ Levels: Healthy Ageing Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Understand how food production and supply have changed over the years and why we need to educate ourselves about it.  Learn how certain chemicals are clean labelled to become more natural-sounding ingredients.  Discover how you can improve your health by changing your diet.    Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to the Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! Listen to other Pushing the Limits Episodes: #170: Dr David Minkoff: The Search For The Perfect Protein And Why So Many Of Us Are Deficient  Connect with Cyndi: Facebook I Twitter I LinkedIn    Books by Cyndi:  Changing Habits Changing Lives Lab to Table: Food used to be grown on a farm...now it's made in a lab   Changing Habits: New Zealand and Australia    Take up nutrition courses by Cyndi at The Nutrition Academy  A new program, BoostCamp, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!      Episode Highlights [03:29] Cyndi's Background on Nutrition Cyndi first enrolled in anthropology but subsequently shifted to nutrition.  She saw how dietitians viewed nutrition—mechanistically. So, she decided to study human anatomy instead. After university, she started doing nutrition consultations. She advised her clients to shift from the SAD (standard Australian diet) to real foods. Her approach worked wonders for her clients. But forty years later, this type of nutrition shift is no longer enough.  Due to the consumption of ultra-processed foods, many people's food sensitivities require individualised nutrition. [09:40] The Food Industry's Tricks The food industry has become sneakier over the years.  Many packaged and processed foods smell and look like real food even when they are not. For example, vanilla flavouring can be the product of bacteria's consumption of a substrate.  These substrates can be animal-, plant-, or even plastic-based.   Many food additives are a product of synthetic biology. Listen to the full episode to learn more!  [14:29] The Changing Landscape of Our Food Supply The industry now uses genetic modification on microbes, not just on crops.  Genetically modified corn produces toxins that cause bugs' stomachs to explode, which we then consume.  These toxins are harmful to the cells in our gut. In Australia and New Zealand, there is a campaign to radiate fresh produce in groceries.  Cyndi argues that this move would destroy the good soil-based bugs in these foods and sterilise the seeds. [20:06] Becoming a Health and Nutrition Activist Question the origins of your food. You can start by asking local farmers.  Cyndi started the Nutrition Academy to promote local farmers and empower individuals to choose the food they eat. Changing your food choices can be overwhelming. However, small steps are better than none.  You can start with changing your breakfast and learning to prioritise real foods over processed ones.  [26:57] Decoding Ingredients Cyndi advocates checking all your food's ingredients.  For example, quality chocolate should have no emulsifiers, as these kill the bacteria that protect your gut. Many ingredients, such as rosemary extract, sound natural but are either synthetic or heavily processed. In the food industry, this is called clean labelling.  Stop buying packaged foods. Instead, make things from scratch or buy from someone you trust. Learn to read ingredients and make sure that there are no extracts, acids, flavours, colours, and sweeteners.  [37:00] Start to Question and Think A lot of clinical studies nowadays are being funded by industries with a vested interest. Start to question information. Research credible sources for yourself.  There is always a better way—make the effort to learn about it.  Many people think that diseases come with age, but this is only because they've accumulated so many bad habits.  [43:45] Improve and Change Your Lifestyle Your body can heal and do wonders only if you change your habits.  Make sure you manage your stress and do things to lower your stress levels.  With our nutrition, we can affect which of our genes turn on and off. Simple walks or touching soil can increase the good bacteria in your microbiome and boost your serotonin levels.  Don't just stay isolated in front of your screen. Go out into nature to become healthy.  [49:38] Longevity and Wellness  In ancient cultures, people lived up to 100 years. Nowadays, many people are suffering from chronic illnesses or have a disability.  We need both a vitalistic and mechanistic view of health. However, the health system tends to isolate our conditions instead of looking at the patient's lifestyle.  [56:16] Trust and Questioning Advertising has led us to believe that if we're not well, we need to take pills.  We have to shift from a paradigm of trust to one of questioning.  Do your homework and learn more about what you're consuming.   7 Powerful Quotes 'I grow my own food. Because I think we're going to get to a point where people are either going to have to do that or put up with what the food industry is doing.' ‘You're an activist because you are choosing to buy from a farmer in your area.' ‘We didn't want to eat BHA and BHT. We don't want to eat MSG. We got smart. We would look on the label, (sic) it would have that, we'd say no.' ‘It's about reading the ingredients and making sure there's no extracts and acids and flavours and colours and sweeteners.' ‘Our body has the ability to fight. But if we do not feed it the right ingredients, if we do not give it the lifestyle it needs… and if we don't give it sunshine, if we don't give it love and connection, if we don't breathe properly, and sleep, then we are going to be in trouble.' ‘You look at a lot of the clinical studies that have been funded by the industry that's promoting it, and you have to ask yourself, ‘How independent was theirs?' ‘Once you have your philosophy, you don't fall for everything.' About Cyndi Cyndi O'Meara is a nutritionist, best-selling author, international speaker and the founder of Changing Habits, an innovative and impactful whole foods company. Cyndi also built The Nutrition Academy, an online course to teach nutrition based on vitalistic philosophies, anthropology, environment, and lifestyle.  Her passion for nutrition also led to her groundbreaking book, Changing Habits Changing Lives, and her most recent work, Lab to Table. She is also an in-demand keynote speaker, especially after her What's With Wheat? TEDx Talk. Cyndi and her businesses are multi-awarded in Australia.  Interested in Cyndi's work? Check out Changing Habits and The Nutrition Academy.  You can also reach her on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.       Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends, so they can learn how to improve their nutrition. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential, with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Hi, everyone, welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today I have another fantastic guest with you. Cyndi O'Meara from Australia, from the Sunshine Coast, joins me today. Now she is a celebrity nutritionist. She's an author, she's an all around amazing lady. I can't believe that she's actually 61, because she looks like in her 30s. She's just an incredible bundle of energy and an incredible mind of information. So I do hope you enjoy this episode that gets really into the weeds on nutrition, on E numbers, on the chemicals and foods, on toxins, on things that you really really need to know about. So I hope you enjoy this episode.  Before we head over to the show, just want to let you know about our Boost Camp. Now, this is not boot camp, this is Boost Camp. This is an eight week long online webinar series that Neil and I are running from the first of September, and we would love you to come and join us. This program is all about you all about upgrading your life, all about being the best version of yourself that you can be. It's about ageing like a winner. It's about longevity, it's about upregulating your brain and your mind and fine-tuning yourself to being more resilient. It's about health fundamentals. It's about understanding your biology, understanding what types of exercise to do and when and how, understanding your own body types, understanding more about your genetics, this is a really full on program that we'll be delivering live. And you can join us then we would love you to do that.  So what I want you to do is to head over to peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp. Not boot camp, Boost Camp. B-O-O-S-T-C-A-M-P. I'll repeat that: peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp, and join us on this program. If you didn't catch that URL, write to me, I'll send it to you immediately. If you want to upregulate your life, have more resilience, be tougher, mentally stronger, have more focus, have more control over your life, your biology, then do join us where we really, really stoked to have you come on board.  Also, just a reminder, too: we have our Patron program for the podcast now, is open. This is a way for you to support this podcast. We've been going now for five and a half years, and every week I find incredible guests for you to listen to and learn from. This is like having a university in your pocket basically, with the best professors, with the best doctors, with the best scientists, with the most elite athletes, real high performance people. It takes an awful lot of work, I can tell you, and it's been five and a half years and I really need a bit of help to keep this on air. So we would really appreciate your support. You can join us for the price of a cup of coffee a month that really, these micro commitments that people do really help the show stay on the air. So if you like what we're about, if you like our mission, if you want to support this mission on helping people take control of their health, and be more in control of their life, then please head on to patron, P-A-T-R-O-N dot lisatamati.com. Right, now over to this exciting show with Cyndi O'Meara. Hi everyone and welcome to Pushing the Limits. I am super excited to have you with me again this week for another exciting installment of the show. I have lovely Cyndi O'Meara with me, who is sitting on the Sunshine Coast in Australia. Welcome to the show.  Cyndi O'Meara: Thank you.  Lisa: Fantastic to have you there. Cyndi is a celebrity nutritionist, author, runs a company called Changing Habits in Australia, which is all about educating people, from what I understand, educating people around nutrition and helping them cut through the mess of the noise that's out there and get them into the right mindset and the right things to be thinking about. So today we're going to do a bit of a deep dive into the world of nutrition. So Cyndi, before we get underway with some topics, can you just give the listeners who don't know you a little bit of background about you and what you do? Cyndi: Sure. So I graduated, well, I started my nutrition education in 1980. But I actually didn't start as a nutritionist. I was doing pre-med at the University of Colorado and one of the subjects that I did was anthropology. I did a year of anthropology and cultural anthropology and I thought, ‘Wow, it was food that was really important in the survival of humans and so that we could have babies and keep going,' and I was really intrigued by it and I thought, well I'll become a nutritionist.  So I came back to Australia and I went to Deakin University and finished my Bachelor of Science majoring in nutrition to go do dietetics and at the end I went, ‘This is nothing like what I was taught in anthropology'. So in anthropology, I was taught hunter-gatherer, agriculturalists, paleo, herders — real food. There was no margarine, there was no low fat, there was no processed or ultra-processed foods. There was none of this, and this is what the dietitians were talking about.  They were looking at more mechanistically nutrition, as opposed to what I was taught with culture and anthropology was to look at it very bio-holistically. So I decided, well, I couldn't become a dietitian. So I went back to university to RMIT. I did two years of human anatomy. That was, I kept cadavers for two years, I did all the -ology: the pathology, embryology, histology, parasitology, everything.  At the end of that, six years at uni, I went, ‘I actually know what the human body needs, it needs real food, it needs what I learned in my first year of university.' I could have stopped going to university, and done what I thought. I started to just do consultations, and I only did real foods. I didn't, I got them off the SAD diet, which is the standard Australian diet. We could call it the SNZD diet — too the standard New Zealand diet. The standard American diet and the standard UK diet — margarine, breakfast cereals, low-fat milk, bread, cheese, those plastic fantastic foods and gotten them onto real food. And the results were remarkable. So that was in the 80s.  We now jump to 2021, 40 years on. What I am seeing is a vastly different population, and vastly different problems that we didn't see in the 80s. Now, it's almost like we need to do very individualized nutrition, because so many people have food sensitivities, food allergies, they have the antecedents of their life. So they may have been exposed to a chemical, they may have eaten ultra-processed foods and so they've wrecked their guts or, whatever is happening in— Lisa: Yep, these products or something like that.  Cyndi: Yeah, I only had to change their diet from the SAD diet to real food diet, and we'd get results. I can't do that anymore. So the thing is it we then have to dive deep to find out what is the root cause of what's happening, and what is the problem? I'm not just talking on an individual basis, here, I'm talking on a global basis. 78% of the US population has a gut issue. 50, I think it's 48 to 50% of their kids have chronic disease, one or more. In Australia, it's 38 to 40 with chronic disease.  Now, when I went to school in the 60s, 2% of the whole population of Australia had a chronic disease. Now we have our kids at 38 and 40%. And New Zealand won't be any different, they will be about the same as Australia. If you get to 60, at the age of 60, which I am, I'm 61 this year—  Lisa: Wow, you look amazing! You've done something right.  Cyndi: Well, this is what I do, I eat real food, and I look the best I can. So at the age of 60, the chances of you having chronic disease, one or more, is 80%. So I'm in the 20% percentile. Because I don't do what the rest of the population do. I am not a statistic because I don't do what they're doing. If you want to be a statistic, you do what everybody else is doing. If you don't want to be a statistic, you do something completely different.  That's what I learned very early on. Don't go with what everybody else is doing. Do something different. I would believe that that's you, Lisa. I have to tell you this, Lisa. We've already had the opposite interview where I interviewed you and what you did with your mum and your book. I went through a bit of a crisis in our family and that kept, what you said kept playing in my ear. Lisa: Really?  Cyndi: What you did. You think you're doing something that should be working and your mum just stayed on that level, and then she shot up? Yeah, that's what was happening with us. So I'm well thank you for your incredible resilience, your persistence, everything you did.  Lisa: Someone to tell, someone to tell. Cyndi: Yeah, and I guess that's what I've always been like, but you, your words were brilliant. Thank you.  Lisa: And we all need people to come along and confirm that we're on the right track sometimes because we are getting bombarded with ‘This isn't possible'. I mean, I've just been working with a young man today. He's had a mess of brain injury and the doctors have told him, ‘You'll never talk, you'll never walk, you'll never do anything again'. He's already eight months into his rehabilitation, he's talking, he's starting to walk, and I'm helping him with different things now, and he will make a full comeback. I have no doubt about it, because he has a family that's behind him, he has a mum who thinks outside the box, and is willing to do whatever it takes, and those are the people that will get the results.  This is why these sort of conversations are so, so crucial to have so that we start to understand, and you have the expertise in the area that I'm sort of, know a little bit about but I'm not a complete expert in nutrition side of it. So I'm really keen to dive in. And if I can help you with your family situation, please do reach out. I'd love to help  Cyndi: We might just have a little conversation at the end of it.  Lisa: Yes, we will. I actually was going to take you through the epigenetics, I've just remembered now, and go through that path with you. But I totally agree with you. What I'm seeing in our population now is, when I was at school in the 70s, it was obesity was a rare thing. You had the odd kid who was overweight. Now you look around, and it's like the opposite is having any kid who's not overweight, and people seem to see that this is normal.  If our kids are already like this, and they're already developing things like prediabetes and diabetes before they even reach puberty, in some cases, this is like a mess of warning alarms. For me what's coming down the road as far as a health crisis and the cost that this is going to be on, you know, and human suffering, but also on the society. We have to start standing up and saying, ‘Hey, what we're doing isn't working guys, and we need to make some changes'.  The real food is definitely we we need to be starting from and the processed foods, what is it that's in processed foods that is causing so much trouble? Because isn't like a spaghetti bolognese sauce that I buy from Domino's or something, why is it not the same as what grandma made when she got tomatoes out of the garden? Let's start there, and the weird sort of stuff, so to speak. Cyndi: So in 1998, I wrote a book called Changing Habits, Changing Lives, and it was about the food industry and what food they were suggesting you had for breakfast, I'd say so breakfast cereal, and then I would explain how they make it, what's put into it, what is fortification? So I'd go through that, and then I'd give an example of what we could have for breakfast. Since that time, I have updated that book five times, because the food industry is not getting better as far as our health goes, but they're getting incredibly tricky, with additives and their chemicals to make you think you're eating food.  So it might smell like food, look like food, taste like food, but it is, no way is it food. Let me give you an example of natural vanilla flavoring. This is just one ingredient. So what they've done is that they've figured out if they genetically modify a bacteria, and they put in the smell of the vanilla bean, so the smell of the vanilla bean gene into that bacteria, put it on recycled plastic, as a substrate as it's eating, it eats it, it will make natural vanilla flavoring.  Lisa: Oh my God. So it's coals. Really? Cyndi: Really.  Lisa: That's a new one on a completely left field. That's just one little wee, soddy flavoring.  Cyndi: One ingredient: citric acid, you think it comes from citrus. They genetically modify a mold, put it on a substrate, the substrate could be animal-based, it could be plant based, it could be plastic-based. They're getting really, they're figuring out that there are bacteria that will eat plastic and produce something. So it produces like citric acid. A lot of our additives now are what we call synthetic biology. So they're genetically modifying microbes in order to make a vitamin, amino acid, or something that's going to go into your supplements or into your food supply or your medicine. Lisa: Wow, that's frightening. That's frightening what you just told me there and I wasn't aware that that, to that degree, the genetic modifying of our food is so because you know, you stay away from genetic modified crops. This is about as far as my knowledge goes in that direction, to be honest. So you're saying that the additives and the preservatives and the stuff that they're using in there is actually, they're doing this genetic stuff? Cyndi: Yeah, so they figured out that microbes, you know, nobody's gonna care about microbes, and don't like animals or rats or anything like that. No one's gonna care about microbes. They figured that if they genetically modify them, they can manipulate them to do anything. In the 1990s, a Japanese company manipulated, I think it was tryptophan. They use the genetic modification of a microbe and produce tryptophan, put it in tablets, sent it out into the market, and I think it was 150 people died and 1,500 people were injured permanently as a result of this tryptophan.  They figured out that the bug produced a toxin to protect itself from the tryptophan or something like that. So it was pulled from the market, they soon quickly figured out what was causing it. But it was all covered up, nobody talked about it. I think in the 90s, that kind of calmed that genetic modification down, not as many people were wanting to do it, but now it's at full surge.  Not everything is being made, of course, by genetic modification. Some things are being made with just making a bunch of chemicals and putting them together. So if I was to give you a strawberry flavoring, strawberry flavoring can have 48 chemicals in it. That strawberry flavoring and if one item is natural in that 48 chemicals, it's natural strawberry flavoring, not artificials. Lisa: You're kidding me. So they're just playing with these names and just putting in something natural in order to make it natural. Cyndi: They are absolute masters at it and people don't realize. I'm just telling you one thing that is happening. So if we take it to the genetic modification of foods such as soy and canola and sugar beet and cottonseed, and things like that. If we go there, these are called either Bt, so Bt-Corn, which is a toxin that the corn produces. So when the bug eats it's a pesticide. When the bug eats it, its stomach explodes. That's still in the corn, when you eat it.  Lisa: Oh my god. Cyndi: What we're finding is that while it won't explode our stomach, what it does is it explodes the, it destroys the gut cells, which is one cell thick. So it starts to erode them, and you start to get gaps in your gut and allow protein, chemicals, and things into your blood, which you don't want. You don't want that.  So then the other ones are Roundup Ready. So Roundup being ain chemical that has glyphosate  it. So Roundup Ready soya, Roundup Ready sugar beet. But now they're starting to realize that roundup is not doing what it should be doing on the pest; or not, it's a pesticide but it's more for grass and weeds and things like that. They're finding that that's not working anymore. Now they're producing 2,4-D ready crops, Dicamba ready crops. So Dicamba came into the spotlight I think was last year or the year before when there was a Dicamba ready crop that was sprayed, and all the spray floated over to a I think it was a peach or pear farmer's lands, and killed all of these trees. He actually sued, I think it was Bayer or Monsanto and I'm pretty sure he's won that case. Lisa: That's a big giant to take on. Cyndi: Exactly. This is what is happening to our food supply. We, the Australian and New Zealand Food Standards. So Food Standards Australia, New Zealand have been requested by Queensland agriculture, for Australia wide; I don't know if they'll do it in New Zealand, but an Australia-wide food irradiation process on all fresh fruits and vegetables sold in the grocery stores.  Now when you do that, what it does, is instead of you just cleaning your lettuce and, and doing a bit of a sterilization on it, which is what they do, whether it's organic or not, they have to sterilize it to get rid of any bacteria. So what they're now doing is they want to radiate it because it just doesn't get rid of the surface bugs, it gets rid of the bugs that are inside the food as well. But we need those soil based bugs, of course, they help us with our microbiome. So they're all of a sudden starting to say, we want to radiate everything. Now not only will they kill every bug in our food, what they will also do is that they will sterilize the seed. You know, when on your compost tea, three tomatoes and your pumpkin and and then you've got this pumpkin growing out of your compost, even a tomato growing out of your compost or cucumber. That won't happen.  Lisa: Oh my god, we're not going to have seed come, and who's going to control the seed like that?  Cyndi: I do my own, I grow my own food. Because I think we're going to get to a point where people are either gonna have to do that or put up with what the food industry is doing.  Lisa: And destroy their health.  Cyndi: Yeah, and it's all ultra processed foods. So the whole vegan movement even, I can read you the ingredients of what is called ‘just egg', and it's a bunch of chemicals. It's an ultra-processed food and it is not saving the planet, in actual fact is the worst thing for the planet. Lisa: Jeez, oh my god, this is, I'm all terrified now. Cyndi: I don't want to terrify you. What I want to do is make you aware of what's happening.  Lisa: Oh, absolutely, yeah.  Cyndi: Go to your local farmer, you go to your local farmers market, you support these small time farmers instead of Woolies or Kohl's or whatever you've got over there. Say, Breyer, I forget what's in New Zealand.  Lisa: New World. Cyndi: All you do is that you change the way you buy your foods, or where you buy your foods from, because then you become an activist by yourself. Don't care about anybody else. You're an activist, because you are choosing to buy from a farmer in your area. And I'm sure you already have some incredible region farmers in your area. Lisa: You think they are, they're not, how do you know that they're not using the same practices and the soils? And so, I mean— Cyndi: You talk to them, they're passionate. Go to the farmers' market, and you say, ‘Do you grow your food'? ‘Yes, I do'. Do you use any chemicals? ‘No'. What kind of farming do you do? ‘I want to actually do something called regenerative farming. Have you ever heard of that? Or I do organic farming or I do biodynamic farming, and this is how I do it'.  They're so passionate, they want to tell you. So what I do is, I grow a lot. But when I'm not growing some foods, I will go to my farmers markets, and I know my farmers now in the farmers markets. I've done the hard work. And I have something called the Nutrition Academy. And it's a bunch of people that come and do a year with me, and they become the people that do the research in their area. People come to them and say, well, which farmer should I go to at this market or that farmers market.  I want to create a groundswell of activists who say, we're not eating genetically modified foods, or anything made with a genetically modified bug, or anything that has something ultra processed in it. We're not prepared to buy from the grocery stores, because they can't guarantee me where this is coming from. So I will find a farmers market and I'll support, there are so many young people that want to be farmers, all we have to do as individual say, I'll buy a box from you, or a community supported agricultural box, I'll buy a box from you every week, whatever you're growing, I'll buy it.  Then to supplement you go to your local, organic shop, your local fruit and veggie shop, ask them the questions. It's about us becoming inquisitive. If that's what you do this, please say you're inquisitive, you went there telling me my mum's gonna be like that for the rest of my life. Surely there's something out there. What is happening, medicine's not working, they're telling me nothing's going to happen. So I'm going to go and enquire with other people. That's what I asked people to do with their food supply, is to enquire. Lisa: It's not obvious! I've looked locally, and I've just found one recently who's delivering certain times, a couple of times a week, and I have to get through, and you're like, ‘Lisa's found somebody now'. But it's always out of the way, and it's extra work, and it's, you're busy and you whatever, and there isn't a lot of farmers' markets in our area. There isn't, and I've been looking into a couple of farms here, and then they find out oh actually they're not organic, organic, even though they, you know, say that, but their seeds aren't in there, you know, there's certain practices. So there's thinks little problems, especially when you live in a rural area, and there's not necessarily a bigger place where these people can congregate. But I'm downloading a little bit more, time to dig deeper. Time, to really get into it.  Cyndi: Yeah, it will be somebody in your area, because this farm is everywhere, that they would love farming, and they would love to be able to sell their produce. But if we take it a step by step, and we do it like this, so let's say you're on the SAD diet, the Standard Australian New Zealand diet, let's just say you're on that. If you go from that SAD diet, and you just go to the fruit and veggie, meats, dairy section of your grocery store. That's a really good start. That's a great start.  Once that's in your life, then you go well, I want a better quality fruit and veg and meat maybe, or dairy. Because that many dairy farms and lamb and everything in New Zealand. So you go well, I want to better quality this, where can I find somebody in my area. So it might be six months after you've gone from the SAD diet to the, at least eating fruits, vegetables, meats, and making your own food that you go, I want better quality.  Then you go and seek out maybe a butcher that's doing the right thing or a fruit stand that's doing the right thing. So don't think you have to jump immediately. That's why I wrote ‘check it out'. Realize that it's like, let's start with breakfast, then let's do salt, then let's do dairy, then let's do grains, then let's do nuts, then let's do seeds. Let's do chocolate, let's do— so it's a 52-week, one thing you change a week. Or if it takes you longer than a week to change them, that's fine, 53 weeks. Imagine when you start, where you will be in one year. Lisa: Absolutely, it's the same with exercise is the same with everything, isn't it. Just taking it, you don't have to jump right in at the big change, just start with one change, awaken it. That just makes so much sense in just putting in a bit more effort to find things and do things and maybe start growing, I started growing my own vegetables without having much success. Cyndi: Greens in New Zealand grow incredibly. So it's about— Lisa: For most people.  Cyndi: Invest in greens, because they're like a weed.  Lisa: Yes, yeah, we've got some of those going. It's just making the time to do that, and to prioritize those, because I think I've definitely been aware of the whole processed food. So you stay away from the obvious things, but you've just taken it to another level as far as the genetically modified stuff. That's completely new to me, so that's really important. But starting where you're at, and improving it every week, and just taking on a little bit, because I'm a big fan of that in everything in life, because everything can be overwhelming.  If you get overwhelmed, then you tend to do nothing. It's better to be walking for five minutes a day than to be doing no minutes a day. It's better to be getting good fruits and veggies, and later on you work on the other pieces, if this makes a whole lot of sense. Is there a program through, that you have as an educational online content type of thing as well? Cyndi: It's in my book. So we renamed Changing Habits, Changing Lives to Lab to Table, because that's what it is, at the moment, it's about—  Lisa: Wow, Lab to Table. So I'll put the links and stuff. Cyndi: Stop being a lab rat and start making better choices for your table. And that's on Audible as well. So people can listen to it and just listen to one chapter and go ‘Right, that's what I'm going to do'. They can jump, they can go anywhere they want. They can start with chocolate, if they really want to. I just say well, where can I buy good quality chocolate that's got no emulsifiers? So an emulsifier is in most chocolate and emulsifiers kill the bacteria that makes the layer that protects you from the outside world, in your gut.  Even that little thing that you do by looking at a chocolate that doesn't have lecithin, it's called soy lecithin or sunflower lecithin, or something that's an emulsifier, even if it doesn't have that, so I teach you how to find a good quality chocolate, if that's where you want to start. Lisa: Chocolate's important, so that's a great place to start. Cyndi: Find the white salt out and getting some good salt that's not refined, hasn't got anticaking agents in it, doesn't have free flowing agent in it. They don't, you don't realize it because nobody reads their salt packet. They don't read the ingredients. So I just tell you, this is what's on it, go to your pantry, have a look. If you don't believe me, go to the pantry, have a look at what they put in. They'll have potassium iodide in there as well because that's the chemical form of iodine but you want natural iodide.  So an actual iodine is seaweed and New Zealand's got heaps of seaweed, you know. What I do is I make a salt with seaweed in it and it's called seaweed salt, and that's on the Changing Habits website and we do have a Changing Habits New Zealand website, so you can purchase it and and get it delivered to you not via Australia but New Zealand so I think it's changinghabits— Lisa: .co.nz? Yeah, usually. Okay, we'll get, I'll get my team to—  Cyndi: But mine is .com.au, and we have one of my graduates who runs that and does all the deliveries and everything from New Zealand. So that was one of my graduates from 12 months' education with me. So these people come out knowing exactly how to help people. It might be a trip to the farmers market. It might be coming into your pantry and going through your pantry. I can go into someone's pantry and I can pull 10 things out. Let's say one is barbecue sauce, another one's tomato sauce, another one's hot chili sauce. In other words, I'll pull out all the sauces, and all the sauces will have tomato as the base. All of the sauces will have a citric or an acidity regulator, so citric acid. All of the sauces will have a flavor or sweetener.  So the flavor is what makes the difference. It's not how you used to make your chili sauces or tomato sauces or barbecue sauces. This is an industry that has a base and then they just put a different flavor in, the sweetener might be a little bit different, the acidity regulator might be a citric acid, or it could be citric acid or it could be something else. And basically, you are looking at eating the same thing, just with a different flavor and a different texture.  Lisa: I would have thought, I didn't know that citric acid, for example, was a bad thing, because I thought that came, because you're not educated in this area specifically. You don't know that some of the things that sounds like potassium iodide, that sounds like a natural thing. And so being able to decode that, and I bet they do that partly differently, too, so that you actually think it's something natural— Cyndi: In the industry, it's called clean labeling. So people like me, got smart. We didn't want to eat BHA and BHT. We don't want to eat MSG. We got smart. We would look on the label, it would have that, we'd say no. So what they've done is they've renamed these. So BHA and BHT is called rosemary extract. Lisa: Really? So you're just, you just have never sure, unless you really spend some time educating yourself. Cyndi: Exactly. I read all the labels. So what they've done, rosemary extract is yes, it started with rosemary. But they pulled out one chemical out of the rosemary bark and rosemary leaf. With that, they do all sorts of processes to it, and it ends up as an antioxidant, a synthetic antioxidant, my way of thinking. But because it's an extract from rosemary, they call it rosemary extract, and you go ‘Oh, it's just rosemary extract'. Yeast extract, you think oh it's yeast extract, but it's MSG. So what they've done is rename, every single natural flavoring is the same as artificial flavoring, they just added one little natural chemical, and well purchase strategies that they put in there.  You might read turmeric, or curcumin, everyone does, or curcumin. 75% of all curcumin is made in the laboratory. It's not extracted from turmeric. The most of the population don't know what's happening. And that's why I go, just stop buying packaged foods. And you do have to make things from scratch, or you have to buy it with somebody that you trust. So it's about reading the ingredients and making sure there's no extracts and acids and flavors and colors and sweeteners. If it said tomato, onion, chili, sugar, salt, I'd be happy. I don't have a problem with sugar. I have a problem with all the other crap.  You're blaming sugar. I don't mean lots of sugar. I'd like to see Rapadura sugar, but they're blaming sugar on what I believe is a vegetable oil problem, and all these additives. Lisa: Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy pushing the limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our Patreon membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody. And we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's P-A-T-R-O-N dot lisatamati.com. We have two patron levels to choose from, you can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do, there are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us, everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strings guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries, and much much more. So check out all the details, patron.lisatamati.com, and thanks very much for joining us. Cyndi: One of the things that we do know about this genetic modification that's happening at the moment in the microbes is that there's a disease out there called Morgellons disease, you can look it up. At first the doctors just thought that everybody was a little bit weird and psychotic in a way, that there's sort of mental illness. But what would happen is like, on the, a cut would come here and you'd get a pink and an orange and a yellow and a red fiber that would just come out of your mouth or it might happen here or wherever you gotta cut that would be these fibers, colorful fibers.  So the doctors all said, ‘Oh, you just been rubbing on carpet. You just, you've got Munchausen this disease,' or whatever, whatever that, or you're hypochondriac, you know, but what they're really beginning to realize is that some of these microbes, now these are microbes that make fibers. They're associating these microbes with this disease that has gotten into our microbiome. And as a result, they make them. That's their job. So I kind of figure if I'm going to eat natural vanilla, if that bug that makes natural vanilla flavor, does that mean, like, who's gonna smell like vanilla? You know, like, I just wonder. And I make a joke about it but in actual fact, it's, it's no joke. No, they are like nature. And so I choose not to support them in any way. Lisa: No. And that takes a huge commitment. But that's, that's where we need to be heading towards and like you say, one step at a time. Cyndi: Just one step at a time. And if in a year, you're doing that, or even two years, it's better than for the next 30 years or three decades, you've not changed and you have more Morgellons disease, or you're scared of a virus called COVID. It's actually called SARS-COVID 2. COVID-19 is the disease. Our body has the ability to fight. But if we do not feed it the right ingredients, if we do not give it the lifestyle it needs, such as exercises, you do running and yoga, and if we don't give it sunshine, if we don't give it love and connection, if we don't breathe properly, and sleep, then we are going to be in trouble. And we will become vulnerable to SARS-COVID 2 or whatever else comes along. Don't be scared of an invisible thing. Lisa: Yeah, and this isn't mean, this is, you know, those are all my wheelhouse. And that's what I'm always preaching on every week is one of these health fundamentals that if we, in relation to the slide, as far as you know, if we were just focusing on building our immune system, and eating healthier, and doing more exercise, and things would actually be at least better off, even if we did manage to, you know, unfortunately contract it. And we don't want, listen, this whole journey that I've been on the last five years and listening to, you know, I've had hundreds of doctors, scientists, experts, like yourself, sharing their corner of the world's knowledge.  I have absolutely no faith anymore in the authorities, or to be honest, I have no faith in the standards of medical care, I have no faith. Even though you know, like, clinical evidence, can be manipulated, and pushed in a certain way to make something look like it's good and it's safe. Then you look at a lot of the clinical studies that have been funded by the industry that's promoting it, and you have to ask yourself, how independent was theirs? There's just, there's just holes all over the place. And what I think you and I are, you know, with our different expertise as and trying to do is to get people just to question. Just to not take whatever is being thrown at you propaganda wise or whatever it is to actually question, do the research yourself, start to look at it.  It is confusing and overwhelming at times. But when you take control and when you're faced with the big situations, like I have been in my life, unfortunately few times now, not just with mom's story. I've had to face and work things out. If it was up to the doctors, I would have no uterus. I'm about to go through IVF. I'm 52 years old. They told me four years ago, I will die if I do not have a hysterectomy because I had fibroids. Now why did I have fibroids probably because I was on the pill for 30 years. But that's another story. I refused to have my uterus taken out because I believe there was another way. It took me a year to work it out. But I found a way. I found another doctor who worked out exactly which of the fibroids it was a 10 minute operation that was gone. That was a year of suffering bleeding, anemia, blood transfusions every week, but I refused to have the hysterectomy because I wanted to preserve the chance to have a child. And now I'm 52 and I'm able to go through and I don't have it, I didn't die and I still got my uterus. I've only shared that story.  These are the things we have to question. We just work things out and we're just given a white little pill and it's gonna make things better and go away. And I'm sorry, it's not how biology works. It takes time and it takes effort and it takes grind and it takes research. But if you're willing to do that, you're gonna end up looking, you know, like you do at 61. Not like most people who have autoimmune diseases, who have diabetes, who have heart disease, who have all of the horrible things that happened to us.  If we can prevent some people going down that path, then you know, our job's worth doing. If we can help one person who's listening to this just to open their eyes, and you certainly opened my eyes today. I thought I knew a lot, but I know I don't know enough. I don't know enough. This is why I spend like hours every day studying. Every day is a study day, every day is a learning day, every day is a day where I get to connect with amazing people like you that can share another piece of insight that I'm like, ‘Wow, that's terrifying. But okay, let's do something about it'. Sorry I've gone on my slip ups.  Cyndi: You did brilliantly, because this is what's happening is there will be people like you that are proactive in your health. Then there'll be people who don't want to change. They'll go get their uterus out, they'll take that pill, they'll never eat the right foods. That's okay, we can't help them. But there is a group in the middle that are inquiring and questioning and saying there's got to be a better way. I just don't know where it is, how do I find it. So they're the people that I hope to get to, because people like you are proactive, you're already doing it, you don't need me. But it's the people in the middle that are going ‘I know there's a better way, I know I can do this, but I don't know where to go and I can't find it'.  Then they get this aha. And from that, aha, they change their ways from the SAD diet to a different diet. And once they start to feel better, then they go and they start exercising, or they may exercise first and then decide on their food. Then there's this unbelievable effect that happens. Then they become vocal with their family and friends. That's what we want, is that we need them out there being vocal. It's all right, there will be people that don't want to change, and I don't want to even change them. That's just not my market. It's not my people. But I am here for the people who go, ‘Oh, I want to know more. How do I learn more?'  That's why I guess Changing Habits is really more education. Even though we do programs and protocols, and we've got food, my main thing is to educate you is to get you on a program or protocol, and then go, now that you've done that we feeling better, what are the things that you need to learn in order for you to progress as opposed to degress. If you think that you can come on a program or program with me, and go back to your old ways, and still feel amazing, you're delusional, you cannot go back. You have to keep going. So my thing is, if you're coming on that journey with me, please be prepared to be on this and to make major changes in your life that are sustainable, and for the rest of your life.  It's not the one big thing we do once a year that makes the difference. It's those little things that we do every single day, like the five minutes of walking, the banana instead of the chocolate bar, or better quality chocolate instead of a chocolate bar because they're all shit. Lisa: Yeah. We gotta find some good chocolate.  Cyndi: You've done a terrible job of making chocolate. You've bastardize the whole thing. Lisa: Oh, no. Cyndi: Yes. So this is what I want to achieve and the more people that are awoken, the less will have chronic disease, and the less will be vulnerable to whatever comes along. So we know just by the statistics that have happened in the last 16 months, that the people that are vulnerable to SARS-COVID 2 are those with chronic disease. People like you people like me, we're not even, there's not even a death rate amongst us. It just doesn't happen. But it does with people with chronic disease, and it's not the age group, it's your health. And yet they're putting us into age groups because that statistics what happens at age— Lisa: You get all these diseases, because you've been doing all the stuff for so long and there is genetic components to it and pieces of the puzzle. I partly because I studied genetics, and I know that I actually have a, I'm missing one of the genes for respiratory protection. So I'm actually in a higher risk category, but I can know that and like that I can take my vitamin D's and my magnesium, my things. Whatever's going to help me be healthier and then be armed. I mean, my house is full of biohacking, gadgets, machines, things are back standing behind me. I'm ready for battle. Because I know that I can still go down because I have a genetic predisposition to certain things. However, you know, like I was an asmathic as a kid. Severe asthmatic, in and out of hospital all my childhood.  But because I now have my inflammation in my body under control, I don't have asthma anymore. We didn't know that when I was a child, what was causing it. We cut out dairy but that was about it. My parents didn't know what else, things like gluten that we talked about back then and we lived next door to an orchard that was spraying everything everywhere. So goodness knows, but now I don't have a problem with asthma. Now is that because I've changed my diet, my lifestyle and all that sort of thing? Yeah, probably because I am missing that gene completely. So I have no sort of respiratory protection. So I am more prone to that. There's different aspects that we need to be aware of.  One of the biggest, I think, things that, something that I'm big on is stress management, because stress is definitely going to, and this is something that I've been with personally, because I'm so driven and mission orientated. It's very hard not to have a high level of stress when you're operating. So anything that I can do to lower my stress levels, while still operating at a really high performance level, I'm into. That's the breath work. That's the meditation. That's the getting the sunshine that's having my little breaks, it's having my social time, all of those things that I've had to learn to prioritize along the way as well. Yeah, but again, I'm getting off topic. Oh, I've just lost your— Cyndi: I'm using my shop in the background. You're saying the right thing. We do know, and you've already mentioned, and that's epigenetics. So what is happening above the gene that turns the gene on or off? There's nutrigenomics? Yeah. What is the food that turns a gene on and off? There's also metabologenomics, which is, what are the metabolites are made by your microbiome, which you are 90% genetically microbiome? What are the metabolites that are being made by the microbiome that are turning my genes off? What is the- like in nutrigenomics? I love it, because we know that when we go into a state of ketosis, that we're not only changing the metabolism of the brain and what energy the body uses, but we're actually affecting genes being turned on and off from glutamate together. So these are the things that we are affecting as a result of just manipulating food, that's natural dynamics. Now, when manipulate what's happening in our body, with as far as the microbiome, if you go for a walk in the woods, and you come against some spore based bacteria, so such as bacillus, though you will breathe it in, you will touch it because you touched a tree, or a rock, or you've dug down into the dirt for some reason, or whatever, you will get this and it has the ability to increase your good bacteria in your microbiome. It can decrease the bad bacteria. This is going out into nature, we've shown this.  If you go gardening in a really good soil, you pick up a certain soil based bacteria that actually improves your serotonin and will give you a feeling of calm and helps in mental illness, there's psychobiotics out there that we know that certain ones improve serotonin, some improved dopamine, others GABA others noradrenaline. So we have this thing called metabologenomics now, where it switches it, you're not going down the excitatory path of good mind, but you're going down the calming path of GABA just by manipulating your microbes. And that is nature, breathing as you know, both you and I love our breathwork. Sunshine does it. So we are giving our evolutionary body the ingredients it needs to be the best. When you do not do this and you stay in a city. You never get out into nature, you don't see the sunshine, you've got screen on. You've lost those ingredients that the body has had cues for for 400,000 plus years. We're not an modern body we're still evolutionary. Lisa: Our DNA is old. Cyndi: We'll never survive on the lifestyle that this modern world is giving us. We can still live in a modern world, don't get me wrong. But we have to let the body know that it can have these other ingredients. So hiking, you know like it's one of my favorite things to do is put a backpack on and go hiking for five or six days. Or nobody sees me no WiFi. And if that's not your bag, go out for the day. Go into a park. If you're in Auckland, you know go to what's beautiful for Cornwall Park. Pet the cows and the sheep. Just go breathe that beautiful old trees in. Lisa: This is just so basic, isn't it? You know I lost my dad recently and people know the story a little bit. But he was 81 years old. My dad was unfortunately a smoker and that's what brought him in. I could never stop him smoking and that's what ended up being his demise but he was every day all day in the garden, out in the sunshine working physically hard, and he was 81 years old. Apart from what happened to him, which was an aneurysm of the stomach. So he had arthroscopic sclerosis from smoking, but he was powerful, strong, he was exhausted, at the end of the day, he would sleep fine, he had a natural rhythm to his life: get up, work hard, eat probably too much. And not always the best things, smoke way too much. But he had this natural rhythm and he worked all day. He was in the garden all day, and his hands were always dirty, and his feet always planted on the ground. And I really think that's why he got to 81 despite having smoked for 55 years, which is a disaster, obviously.  He probably would have carried on for another, 20 or 30 years, if he hadn't had that unfortunate thing, because he lived in this natural rhythm. He was strong, powerful and fit, despite all of the stuff that he was doing wrong, but just that natural rhythm. I saw this, and I was like, wow. We are artificially stuck indoors, stuck sitting, stuck in front of screens, we need to make time to go out, have that sunshine, get that vitamin D. This is science now, like a lot of the stuff that ancient traditions were telling us to do. Everyone's that's all woowoo and eerie theory, and there's no proof. Now science is starting to bring this proof out. That's really exciting for me, because then we start to see that these guys were right, there is acupressure pressure points and there is negative and positive ionization.  There is all of these things that people have known for centuries, and, you know, millennia sometimes, and our old DNA just cannot survive if we are only in this artificial environment, not going to do well, we're going to be going backwards in our longevity, when we actually should be going forward. We've gone forward up until now, because we've had incredible surgeries and people know about germs and we've done some brilliant things. But if we can combine that knowledge of nature in our ancient DNA, and anthropology and all of that sort of stuff, and then combine it with the knowledge that we have today, there's the power. Because I truly think that within the next 20 years, we're going to be seeing people living much longer lives, like I don't think that you are going to retire anytime soon, like your average 60 year old would have done 20 years ago, now that's lifting up, right. Then by the time you are ready to retire, it will probably be 150. You know, because that's what's coming at us, the change that's coming is just phenomenal. If we can keep ourselves well enough, in the meantime, to benefit from all this knowledge that's coming down the line. Cyndi: Yeah, and the longevity is important. But the wellness is also important, as you said, because most people been 15 years of their life, and that's the last 15 years of their life, in a chronic condition or with some disability of some sort. So if we can change that, by what we're doing. We've seen ancient cultures. And it has shown that these ancient cultures, as long as they got past the age of five, they could live to 100 110 120, the body is able to do that. It's just that back in those days, the problem was pregnancy right through to the age of five. But once you got past that, the ability to get to 100 was here. We are now past that point. We can get most people past the age of five. Although, in chronic condition. That's what's scary is that they're going to have that chronic condition. And they're going to be beholden to the drug companies and beholden to the medical profession for the rest of their lives. I don't have a problem with the medical profession and the medications that they use, because they are life saving at times. But what's happened is that mechanism, which is you have a heart problem, go to your cardiologist, let's not look at your gut or you're leaving your son or anything like that. Let's just check out your heart. Oh, you've got this take that drug, you know.  So that mechanism has taken over from the vitalism which is ‘Hey, let's check your whole lifestyle out. Let's see what you're doing what you're eating, your son, your connections, everything like that. Let's start changing them before we need to go down the route of mechanism'. Vitalism is prevention. But where mechanism is needed is when, like, let's just say you've been in a car accident, you've broken a leg, get to the hospital, you don't get them asking you about your lifestyle. Fix your leg. So they're both important. It's just that mechanism has taken over from this very natural, holistic vitalistic way of living. If we go back to that, then the need for emergency care is going to get less and less or chronic diseases. We'll have acute problems that we might need another.  This is where I'd love to see the narrative go at the moment and I'm watching your prime minister, as well as my prime minister. They haven't said a thing about this. All they're doing is social distance, lockdowns, masks that don't work, the vaccine, that's the narrative. What happened, what, 15 months ago, just imagine this, that both our prime ministers said, right, we're shutting down McDonald's, Kentucky Fried Chicken, all foods that have got crap in it, we're stopping the genetic modification of any food coming into our country, because you're lucky you don't grow genetically modified foods.  Stop all of that, we're going to give you the time to go out and exercise and to give you money to go out and do this and get sunshine and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. If they've done that, can you imagine the state of health in New Zealand and Australia at the moment? It would be incredible.  Lisa. That would not be appropriate. You will be pissing off a lot of big companies. And this is what you know, people need to understand, like we tend to think, and like, you know, don't get me wrong, I have a lot of fantastic doctors and things and scientists and things that I work with, who I love, and we need doctors and so on. But the narrative is that they have all of the answers and that they are the only people that have the answers. That isn't necessarily the truth. There are big powers at play. I'm going to sound like a conspiracy theorist when I say that, and that's a word that people use in order to label you and discredit you.  But let's look at what is actually going on. Like in this case with the vaccine, I don't wa