Half the City

Sean Dustin is the writer, producer, and host of the podcast "No Where To Go But Up". In part 2 of this 2-part interview, Sean shares his wild story that begins with his time in prison for cocaine and check fraud and ends with finding himself and his path, a new man.   Show NotesFollow Sean on InstagramNo Where To Go But Up PodcastTheme music by: Ruel Morales Audio Transcript Brian Schoenborn: [00:00:00] Hello. Hello everybody. A guest today. He had a time where he hit rock bottom like many of us, and he has turned that around and become a huge success story. We’re gonna learn about all of that and more is coming up. We’ve got the host, creator and writer of the “No Where To Go But Up” podcast with Sean Dustin, give it up for my friend Sean Dustin,my name is Brian Schoenborn. I’m an Explorer of people, places and culture. In my travels, spending over 20 countries across four continents, I’ve had the pleasure of engaging in authentic conversations with amazingly interesting people. These are their stories on location and unfiltered presented by 8B media.This is half the city.Sean Dustin: [00:00:51] Where are we at, man? We were riding it.Brian Schoenborn: [00:00:54] Yeah. You wrapped it up right as, um, just before he went to prison.Sean Dustin: [00:00:59] So like,Brian Schoenborn: [00:01:00] yeah, so you were, um, so you went to jail for a couple of days, you know, brought in by the SWAT team and then you came back out and then you started, you switched from the drugs intoSean Dustin: [00:01:10] fraud. Oh yeah.That was going to kill that dude because, yeah, you’re going to kill the attack. He texted me, they showed up. It was already been planned. So what ended up happening is they, they, they stopped me, uh, throw me in the car. Uh, it was about a hundred degrees, like 110 degrees in the back of that damn car, uh, middle of summer.And, uh, I, all I can remember is like, dude, I just want to go to sleep. I do. The weight was off of my shoulders. I don’t have to run anymore. I know I’m going to go where I’m sleeping tonight. You know? Uh, well I knew where I was sleeping most of the nights anyway. Um, but it was just, it was just a relief actually, you know, it’s like, fuck, finally I can get this shit over with and I couldn’t stay awake, man.I couldn’t like, I was like this, I just kept falling asleep cause it was like, that’s all I wanted to do is just go to sleep. I’ve been up for like three daysBrian Schoenborn: [00:02:01] trying to run in the back of the cab or the back of a, or at.Sean Dustin: [00:02:05] No, in the back of a cop car like this one that’s like asleep, man. They didn’t even get even, they haven’t even gotten to the end of the car to go.And so the detective that came was the same one that had got me into the first time. Oh, sweet. Yeah,Brian Schoenborn: [00:02:25] I bet he was thrilled to see you.Sean Dustin: [00:02:27] Oh, he’s what? He’s like, he was waiting for it. I knew you’d show up sometime. You pop back up somewhere and uh, you know, I was like, he goes, he’s like, so you know, from what we got in your last house, he’s, I know you’ve already got a whole bunch of shit accumulated again.So he’s like, if you. You’re already going down because we have a ride along and that shotgun’s going to be a federal offense now. Uh, so we’ll not file charges on you if you take me to your house and give me all of your shit.Brian Schoenborn: [00:02:57] I ain’t kidding.Sean Dustin: [00:02:59] No, I’m serious. But IBrian Schoenborn: [00:03:00] mean, that sounds like a fucking trap, dude.Sean Dustin: [00:03:03] No, I did it. I was like, I didn’t care. I called my ex up, I call my checkup. I said, Hey man, uh, I’m, uh, I got arrested and I’m on my way there with the police right now cause I got give them all my shit. And they didn’t really, they did, they didn’t care about the method was there, the fucking, you know, the pipes or anything.All they wanted was my, my, uh, what I was doing. And so I gave him all the computer stuff. I gave him all of the, uh, like I had blank. You know, I, I figured out how to duplicate the, uh, the social security cards too. And like the secret service dude, cause I had him on a sheet and they had the, the, the, all the stuff that you should have all the security features and everything else.And they didn’t, they didn’t believe me that they weren’t real and they thought that I’d stolen them from like the social security administration. Wow. Because they were in sheets. Right. And I’m like, dude, fuck it. I did that. So you want to give me a job?Brian Schoenborn: [00:03:58] We got a, we got a spot for you in the mint.Sean Dustin: [00:04:01] Yeah.Right. And so, anyway, I ended up going away, uh, fought my case. Um, you know, I was supposed to get. A 12 to 15. For some reason, the judge just did not like me because I was a predator. Uh, you know, I was having these people that were strung out doing all my stuff for me, and you know, she was like, you know, you weren’t selling like you were selling dime bags in the fucking park, mr.So I was like, all right, man, whatever. So I ended up getting a fifth. 15 to 60. And I paroled out in like eight years. Yes. 15 to 60 months. Yeah. And so I paroled out in 18 months. And then, uh, it was a, then I went to federal, um, you know, prison. I mean, it is what it is. I don’t know if you have known anybody that’s ever been to prison or,Brian Schoenborn: [00:04:55] I mean, I’ve been, I’ve been to jail a couple of times.Um, you know, I spend my 18th birthday in jail. I was in jail for a month over some stupid shit. Um, but, you know, I don’t know. I know some people that have been to prison, but, um, they haven’t. Well, one person that made it out dying a couple of years ago, but we never really reconnected after that. He was kind of a piece of shit before.Sean Dustin: [00:05:20] Yeah. Yeah. It’s funny how that works.Brian Schoenborn: [00:05:23] Right? Um, but he, he came out as like a Neo Nazi fucking, yeah. Like.Sean Dustin: [00:05:30] SuperBrian Schoenborn: [00:05:31] racist piece of shit. Um, which was funny cause his best friend was Mexican. I’ve heard that works.Sean Dustin: [00:05:41] And I don’t hate tacos. Right.Brian Schoenborn: [00:05:45] Um, but no. So, so I don’t know a lot of people that have been to prison.Um. YouSean Dustin: [00:05:50] know, I’m sure you’ve seen, you know, movies scene, you know, the, the, the, what is that? You get like the, the outdoorBrian Schoenborn: [00:05:57] areas like recess or some shit. You can lift weights or whatever else.Sean Dustin: [00:06:02] Recess,Brian Schoenborn: [00:06:03] right?Sean Dustin: [00:06:05] Uh, well, no, you don’t get any of that stuff anymore. Like, you know, we were doing, you know, lifting bags of fucking sand and water bags and you know what I mean?Just trying to do stuff like that. Cause they don’t really give you a whole lot. Yeah. Cause you know, they just don’t want to, they don’t want the inmates getting bigger than the guards. Right. Some places you would go and it would be just like, you know what I mean? And fuck, what are you going to do with that man?You fucking put that. You have to put that dude down.Brian Schoenborn: [00:06:30] Yeah. I think of, I mean, I think the closest I’ve come to prison, at least the feel of it, I think would be, uh.Sean Dustin: [00:06:43] WhenBrian Schoenborn: [00:06:43] I went to jail and Tokyo, so,Sean Dustin: [00:06:48] so it was aBrian Schoenborn: [00:06:48] stupid situation. I was, I was in Tokyo, I, um, with a group of friends that is grad school, business trip thing, right?So like, it was 20 of usSean Dustin: [00:06:57] and like, and I had just been electedBrian Schoenborn: [00:06:59] class president somehow. I don’t even fucking know, but like, whatever.Sean Dustin: [00:07:03] Um.Brian Schoenborn: [00:07:05] And we were out in Tokyo, partying, didn’t we bumped into this guy who was like the home run King of Japanese baseball league, and he bought us a fucking, like, you know, the giant Magnum of Saki.Sean Dustin: [00:07:16] He paid for our wholeBrian Schoenborn: [00:07:17] dinner, just kind of like randomly bumped into him and some sushi place. Yeah. And uh, later that night we’re walking around and, and me and like two other buddies would go into this bar to, I go to get them some beers, come back, uh, like when I go back, they’re gone. And next thing I know, I’m waking up in the fucking streets of Tokyo like three o’clock in the fucking morning.No idea where I’m at. Nothing is in English, right? I think I find the hotel, but the Gates closed, right? So I fucking, I hopped the fence. I hopped this six, eight foot tall like. Brick cinderblock brick gate. Right. Fucking hop. That thingSean Dustin: [00:07:53] I’m beating on the door.Brian Schoenborn: [00:07:55] Fuck it. Three o’clock in the morning, right.Sean Dustin: [00:07:57] You know, let me, let me hit. Let me,Brian Schoenborn: [00:07:59] nobody’s answering. Nobody’s answer. Fine. I’m just like, fuck it. There’s like this, there’s like a hedge Bush like on the inside of the gate, like next to the wall. So I was like, fuck it. I’m just going to like squeeze myself between there and pass the fuck out. These cops wake me up.Fucking take me in. Uh, everything’s Japanese. They don’t speak English at all,Sean Dustin: [00:08:19] like at all. Right?Brian Schoenborn: [00:08:21] So they’re just like making me stand in line with all these bugging Japanese guysSean Dustin: [00:08:24] and shit. And like, there’s just yelling and it’s like barking shitBrian Schoenborn: [00:08:27] in Japanese, like a fucking, like a world war two, like pow fucking fuck.Yeah. And then they give you the, this is probably a 20 by 20 foot room, so. Where were you? And like, I don’t know, five, 10 other people fucking are sitting in there. There’s no seats. It’s just kind of a, it’s kind of a padded floor, kind of like a, like a wrestling mat or something, you know, like those high school wrestling mats, kind of like that feel.Um, and you just sat there with this fucking group of other dudes for that was there for three days. But like, the weird thing is like,Sean Dustin: [00:09:00] Japan’s also this, uh. Um,Brian Schoenborn: [00:09:03] you know, it’s, it’s very volcanic, right? A lot of seismic activity. And so their buildings are like, um, earthquake proof, right?Sean Dustin: [00:09:12] So like,Brian Schoenborn: [00:09:12] you’re sitting in there and you could feel the floor fucking shifting.Like as the building swaying in the air or whatever. Um,Sean Dustin: [00:09:20] yeah,Brian Schoenborn: [00:09:21] there’s serving your meal, the serving, you have meals that it’s all like straight up Japanese food and I’m like, I can do this. I wasSean Dustin: [00:09:27] like,Brian Schoenborn: [00:09:31] Oh, okay. That’s cool.Sean Dustin: [00:09:32] Um, they had aBrian Schoenborn: [00:09:34] cigarette break every day. Dude, every day you get your shot, you can go into the, you go to a separate room where they give you cigarettes for free and you have like 15 minutes to houses meetings you can. So I’d goSean Dustin: [00:09:44] through and fucking sucked out like three of them, cause I was like, yes, I fucking got this.Yeah.Brian Schoenborn: [00:09:52] And then, uh, I eventually got out because like, they, the, I dunno, the detective or whoever, whoever the police, the prosecuting police officer, whatever, someone was talking to me and this guy, this Japanese guy spoke English. And I’m like, I’m like, look, you know, he, he wanted me to sign this piece of papers, like, you know, you apologize, you know, you did not mean toSean Dustin: [00:10:11] shame theirBrian Schoenborn: [00:10:11] family and like all of this other stuff.And they’re like, if you sign this, and it was all in Japanese, and they’re like, if you sign this.Sean Dustin: [00:10:18] You can go,Brian Schoenborn: [00:10:19] you’re free. Charges are dropped. And I’m sitting here going, I have no idea what the fuck I’m signing right now, dude. It’s all in Japanese. You know what? If I’m actually signing my life away, I got no fucking clue, dude.So I’m like, I want to talk to somebody. So they bring in the fucking us embassy, consulateSean Dustin: [00:10:36] guy. He comesBrian Schoenborn: [00:10:38] in, he sits down, he looks like fucking, you’re seeing scrubs. LikeSean Dustin: [00:10:45] vaguelyBrian Schoenborn: [00:10:46] or whatever. But so like, this one guy was kind of like, at like a widow’s peak and like, I think he might’ve been in top gun too.Um, I know those are really random references, but it could have been those, um, this guy looks like him fucking speak in perfectly clear English to me cause he’s, he’s American, right? Uh. And he told me the same thing. He’s like, look, they’ll drop the charges. They just want you to apologize and say you didn’t want to bring shame on either of our houses and blah, blah, blah.Sean Dustin: [00:11:17] So I’m like, fuck.Brian Schoenborn: [00:11:18] I’m like, all right.Sean Dustin: [00:11:19] And he goes, well,Brian Schoenborn: [00:11:19] he was like, he was like, do that. He’s like, charged me dropped. You can go home. Then he goes, you know, at the end of the day at least you can say you got something in common with Mick Jagger, and I’m justSean Dustin: [00:11:31] like.Brian Schoenborn: [00:11:34] Thanks dude. Why? Cause we fucking, we both spent time in TokyoSean Dustin: [00:11:37] likeBrian Schoenborn: [00:11:41] we did. It’s not prison. It’s not prison. But like, that to me, like, that was the most like for, and like, you know, like when I, I was in jail for a couple of days here and there and, and the States and, uh, they don’t give you cigarette breaks.Sean Dustin: [00:11:53] No, you don’t get it.Brian Schoenborn: [00:11:54] You get a concrete bed.Sean Dustin: [00:11:58] The only cigarettes, the only cigarettes you get in in jail are the ones that you pack in your suitcase on your way.When you come from state prison and you go into a, in the city in the city, like, all right, so I did do that. So when I, when I had to, uh, like I didn’t have any money. So when you’re in transit, you know what I mean? You can’t, like when you’re going to go stay somewhere, you don’t know how long you’re going to be.So you don’t want to tie your money up on the books with their commissary because your money takes a while to follow you. And so what you do is, is you just, you pack your ass full of fucking tobacco and, and, uh, and, uh. Uh, matches and fucking, uh, rolling papers. And as soon as you get there, shit’sBrian Schoenborn: [00:12:44] currency, right?Sean Dustin: [00:12:45] It’s gotta be gold. There you sit that shit out, pull, pull, pull that suitcase out. Um, I mean, it was disgusting. It was, it was disgusting that I didn’t, you know, I probably wouldn’t have done it if I, if I. You know, if the amount of money that I had on my books wasn’t, I had like about a thousand something bucks on my books.So I’m like, dude, I’m not going to tie up that much money in somewhere so. I ended up making like a hundred dollars in commissary the as soon as I landed cause I just rolled up pinners my hand smelled like fucking poop cause you got it cause you got it. It wasn’t an easy, it wasn’t an easy process. So like it was almost a whole 24 hours that I had to like not shit.And not eat anything and not drinking well, I can drink something. Right. Eat anything. OrBrian Schoenborn: [00:13:31] do you stash it in your ass where you like what you were selling? Packs of cigarettes in your asshole?Sean Dustin: [00:13:36] No, no, no, no. Wow. That’s impressive, dude. Not packs, bro. So it’s like putting butts in your butt. That’s basically, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re putting like a least, you know, it’s just loose tobacco, right?That’s how they sell, you know, like, uh,Brian Schoenborn: [00:13:55] like,Sean Dustin: [00:13:55] yeah, that’s your role, right? Like bugler.Brian Schoenborn: [00:13:57] Yeah. Right?Sean Dustin: [00:13:59] So that’s basically what it is. You pack about fucking, you know, 30 or 40 cigarettes worth like, pinners. And you know what I mean? It’s a matches and, and, yeah, and you just pack it in there and you fucking wrap it up, shove it in there and fucking, you know, that’s, that’sBrian Schoenborn: [00:14:17] impressive.You’reSean Dustin: [00:14:18] kind of like,Brian Schoenborn: [00:14:20] how do you get it from stateSean Dustin: [00:14:21] though? Can you get cigarettesBrian Schoenborn: [00:14:23] in state prison? It’s just not federal.Sean Dustin: [00:14:25] Yeah. In Nevada, you could. You could, but this was, this was in my transit, so I had to go from state prison. When they released me out of there, I had to go back to Las Vegas, go sit in the city jail and wait for the feds to come and pick me up and take me and take me on.And that was like a month and a half journey, because once you left the jail. Well, yeah, that was about a month, but then once I left city jail, it was about another month and a half to get all the way to Oregon. Oh, yeah. So it went all the way down through, uh, this place called, uh, what is it, something, Florence, Arizona, where it’s like, there’s nine.There’s nine. Uh, uh. Private prisons in this town in Arizona. Damn, it’s all, this is a prison town. That’s just the population is the prison workers. Um, and then from there up to, uh, Victorville, from Victorville to Dublin and from Dublin up to a, up to Oregon. So, I mean, it was a while. It took me a minute.They call that diesel therapy cause you’re just, you know, going from place to place to place and like, you don’t need, they put you in, they’re not supposed to put you in with like general population because you’re already sentenced to prison. So it’s like they don’t want you like mingling with them. So you usually, we get your own unit wherever you stop.Um, but yeah. I ended up in, I ended up in Oregon, go to a federal prison. Um, I didn’t get in a whole lot of fights when I was in state prison. Uh, I mean, I seen some crazy shit, man. I seen the dude get fucking a hotpots right. So they keep their water for soups and coffee and whatnot. Well, sometimes they’ll take baby oil cause you can get baby oil and when they want to fuck somebody up, they’ll, they’ll heat up the baby oil and it’ll just fuck them.Brian Schoenborn: [00:16:06] OhSean Dustin: [00:16:07] shit. Doubt somebody with it. And it does. It doesn’t stop burning because it’s oil. You know what I mean? And so they get some dude in his cell, man, just fucking. Oh, skin was coming off. Oh my God. Yeah. That’s pretty bad. Um,Brian Schoenborn: [00:16:21] that’s crazy.Sean Dustin: [00:16:22] So, I mean, I didn’t get involved in anything like that, but I mean, it was like I was on my best behavior, that’s for sure.Brian Schoenborn: [00:16:30] But I mean, you see it though, regardless, you know what I mean? Like, that’s, that’s,Sean Dustin: [00:16:34] yeah.Brian Schoenborn: [00:16:35] That’s an experienced man.Sean Dustin: [00:16:37] Yeah. It’s funny when you think you’re hard and then you get somewhere where there, where everybody else is pretty much harder than you are and you’re just like, allBrian Schoenborn: [00:16:47] right,Sean Dustin: [00:16:48] I ain’t got shit to say. Um, got a bunch of tattoos when I was in a federal prison. That’s the one thing, when you get tattoos over cheap as, fuck, I’ve met, you know, the best you can’t get. Tattooed out here for soup,Brian Schoenborn: [00:17:04] top ramen. I mean, are they like rigging like a, is it like a Jerry rig ink gun? Or like what is like,Sean Dustin: [00:17:12] yeah, so they’ll take the motor out of like a, like back then they had like, still have Walkmans and, uh, you know, cassette things or, uh, even, uh, electric razors.Yeah, it was. It’s got the thing that moves, right. Anything like that. And then they’ll take a, like a BIC pen, uh, and then they’ll, they’ll sharpen up a needle, like maybe a paperclip or something and attach it to it, and it’s just a single needle. And then they’ll, they’ll burn baby oil and catch the cigarette.And I, you know, bag, right. And then they’ll take that suit and mix it in the baby oil. Uh, and that’s the black ink doesn’t lie. It doesn’t last for a long time. And sometimes they’ll even burn, uh, chess pieces, the black chess pieces, and collect that and use that in, in like either a baby oil or so or something.I don’t know what they mix it with, but I mean, it, it, it breaks up, you know what I mean? It doesn’t keep like real, uh, like real ink does right. Right? It’s not, it’s not really ink.Brian Schoenborn: [00:18:13] It’s color. Yeah. But it’s like Ash, essentially.Sean Dustin: [00:18:16] Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. And it’s so, you know, I, I did all right there, um, you know, gotten great shape, uh, you know, did a bunch of, uh, cool stuff.Uh, let me not. Like just working on myself, trying to figure out what were, where things went wrong, where I was going to go. From there, I ended up rolling back out. Instead of going to Vegas, I switched my jurisdiction to California, back to my mom’s. And then from there it took me probably about six months to decompress, uh, from just hating other races because you’re forced to be segregated and not hating, but just, you know what I mean?You’re, you’re, you’re used to not. Associating with, you know, cause I was running with the whites, so we didn’t associate with the blacks. You’re not allowed to eat after a black person. If you break any of these rules, you know, you’re subject to a, uh, you know, getting touched up or, or you know, uh, consequences or whatever.So, I mean, there’s still politics in there. Um, but it’s not as bad as like a maximum security. Um,Brian Schoenborn: [00:19:18] I didn’t realize it was a, I didn’t realize it was segregated. Well,Sean Dustin: [00:19:22] I mean, you, you can, you people talk to each other, but I mean, you’re just not, you’re not, you’re not going to see a whole lot of, uh, uh, you know, other races mixing together.They just pretty much kind of stay to themselves.Brian Schoenborn: [00:19:34] Is it segregated by like the, the general population or is it more by like.Sean Dustin: [00:19:39] That’s the general population, the general population does it, you know? And so, you know that it really, when I got out, I ended up getting married, uh, for all the wrong reasons. Um. I, I met this chicken N a or no, in AA.I tried to go to alcoholics anonymous and, and, and be good and do all that. I ended up getting into the union. Um, was an apprentice in the same union I’m in right now. Uh. And then 2008 came and then the crash, the big crash in the economy. And I was out of a job and had a lot of time on my hands and, uh, knew exactly where I needed to go cause I’m back in my old area.So I know who all the old people were that I used to, cause I was doing this stuff back when I was in junior or, uh, in high school. So I’m saying people, they ain’t go very far. I mean, they’re still around. And so, uh, I found him and, uh. I went AWOL from my marriage for about three months, just, justBrian Schoenborn: [00:20:45] bounced,Sean Dustin: [00:20:46] bounced, gone.I didn’t answer the phone to my mom, to anybody. I just left. And, uh, it got to the point where, you know, they, they. Figure it out. I was making checks and fucking IDs in my room down there, you know, uh, I think, what did I do when I, I got a job at this one place, I’m going to say where it was, but I got a job at this one place as a bartender.And, uh, it was a, it was like a seasonal thing cause it was a fair, right. And the only rant of affairs, you know, County fairs run maybe two months, a month, maybe. I figured it out that they don’t. They don’t count the, uh, or they count the cups to keep track of the, of the beer. Right. And so, but there’s nothing else that they have to do that.And so, but they don’t keep track of how many cups that they gave you. And so, so I figured out how to, how to, you know what I mean? How to manipulate, how to manipulate the system. I would turn the, the, uh. I would turn the thing towards me, right? That tells them how much it was, and I just got it into my head.Like, you know, they’re the round numbers, so six, you know, uh, eight $8. And so, you know, they come up, I, that’s $21 and I just hit the it, the cash out. Right? And just put a tick down on what it was. And so I’m keeping track of how much money I need to take out of that register, right. And how much I need to turn in so there’s no mistaking it.And so I was able to really buy my laptop from that. I ended up making, it was making like five, $600 a day, plus whatever tips I was giving. And so that’s how I really got most of my stuff, like clothes and got my laptop. So I go back to work again and, uh. Go back to work.And so, yeah, that’s what I did, man. I just started hanging, uh, started hanging paper, hanging out with all these people. I knew that, that, uh. There w I knew that there was a credit card fraud out there that I wanted to do. Right. Cause when I got out it wasn’t done. There was still things that I had on my agenda that I wanted to accomplish.As crazy as that sounds right. But I knew that there was this, there was this type of crime out there that was white color and that you could, you, you could make and track your own credit cards. You know, put the information on the back press amount. I knew this was all out there, but I just had to find the right person to show me how to do it.And one of my, my buddies. Knew somebody who was in that game and they’ve made the connection. And then here’s the second time, me and this dude just bond a bromance. You know what I mean? And I was literally, dude, we were stuck at the hip. He was teaching me everything that he knew about all the shit, like even to where all of his homeboys that are people, like I’m somebody new coming in and just like has all of his time.And like, you know what I mean? And so all these people were starting to get like, jealous, and they’reBrian Schoenborn: [00:23:44] like, you came in salty man. You already know what you’re doing, right?Sean Dustin: [00:23:48] No, I ain’t, I ain’t really hard to, well, I knew how to do paper. I didn’t know how to do plastic. He showed me how to do all that stuff.And, um, you know, we, we did a lot, we did a lot of dirt together, man. Um. A lot. A lot of stuff that we were doing. I can’t even talk about. Cause you know, that could possibly lead to consequences.But it was, it was crazy. I was in San Francisco, we had a, you know, we had two offices. One where we collected all the information where I was, you know, doing research for trying to get. My credit cards issued in my name by other people, you know, learning how different things worked. We were able to get into, like, just from having somebody’s social security number and a little bit of their information.I would, uh. Find out what bank this credit card went to because it tells the credit cards, tell you what bank they are, the first four numbers, there’s what, what bank it is. And so, you know, we would get the number and we were able to check all of these accounts because we had, we had their social too, so we just punch in the last four and we’d see how much money they got available on this credit card.Right. And so we would just press them out and, and, and go do what we were doing. And, uh, so. He ended up leaving because he was with a chick that he really liked. And she was like, legit, you know, uh, she was a pharmaceutical rep, uh, you know, had a real job and she was fucking with this dude. And like, he was trying to hold onto that.And, uh, so he was like, well, I’m going to change and I’m out. I’m out of the game. And so we just, we, we split split ways. And, uh, I ended up doing, um. Coming back, catching another violation I had to go to, I was in his drug rehab, and so I was able to convince them like after about, I don’t know, maybe 99 90 days, it was a 90 day program.Maybe after halftime, halfway through there, I was able to convince him that I got a job and he was actually the one that made up the, made up the letterhead and everything else. And so. I was able to get my truck there. Leave every day, go to San Francisco, stay high all day long. Come back. And, uh, I fucked myself because I went and I did some GHB before I left.And I ended up doing the same thing and I fucking ended up somewhere else where I didn’t know where I was going. And I missed my, her, phew. And I had to sober up and it was about midnight when I got home. Luckily I had a, uh, some synthetic urine. And when I had, cause I, they knew they were like, you’re fucked up.You need to take a UA. And so they had one of the clients go in because there was only a female staff member, so she couldn’t come in and watch me take a piss and he wasn’t going to watch me take a piss. So I’m just like pissing with this fake urine, you know, it, uh, I get it. Uh, I passed the test right.And all the counselors, everybody’s like, bullshit. You were, you’re fucking dirt in your journey. And I’m like, I ain’t taking another test.I tell you though, test you. I gave it to you. Take it or leave it. So they’re like, you know what? They had a big meeting about it. And they’re like, do we know your foul? So we’re kicking you out? And it was like eight days before I was going to graduate, really fucked. And so my, uh, my probation officer, she was a, you know, she was.A woman. And so, you know, I was, I do that through, through tears on, you know what I mean? All this stuff to get her to get sympathy, you know, please. And that’s how I got there to begin with, right. Cause she sent me back to prison and uh, and so this time she was like, no, fuck you. You’re, you’re goal. You’re going to County, you’re going to go do some time in jail.And so I did. And so when I. What got me to stop doing drugs was I knew that I was going on this trip. Right? Yeah. And I didn’t want to be kicking and in County jail because it’s a, it’s a lot dangerous than it is. And uh, in prison, right. You got a bunch of Cowboys in there that think they know what prisons like, and a little gang bangers and people trying to make a name for themselves.And so I stopped like a month before I was supposed to turn myself in and I stopped smoking and stopped doing that. Got in there, did my time, got out, uh, and I was like, you know what? I think I’m going to keep this up. Uh, I started doing, uh, other things like playing slow pitch softball, like adult softball.I changed my whole like,Brian Schoenborn: [00:28:36] can love softball, dude.Sean Dustin: [00:28:37] Oh yeah, dude, I got into it, man. I got into it. So like. I go hard if I’m going in on something and I go hard, hard as fuck, you know, until, until I burned myself out of it. And, uh, and then I know everything about it. Dude, I’ve got every bat they possibly make.You know what I mean? And I even started like doing bat returns, you know what I mean? Like I would get broken bats from people. I would change. I would change the, the. Receipt, like I figured out how to make receipts for these bats, like by buying some and then changing some of the numbers and they didn’t track it.And so I’d get brand new bats sent to me all the time and sell them. So I mean, I’m always, man, always something like I have to like be involved in something. And even now I do, but it’s, it’s not even. Not even that bad now. Now it’s just a little stupid ass shit. But I mean, it’s like, it’s, I feel like I always gotta get over somehow a little bit, you know what I mean?It’s a little bit, I don’t care, man. Just I got, I got to stick it to the man just for a second. Right.Well, yeah, I, you know, I ended up, uh, doing that. I didn’t like how that league was being run. So this was really the beginning of me actually building myself back up. Uh, so I decided, I was like, do you don’t want to, I don’t like how this league is. I’m going to, I’m going to start my own softball league.And so I did. I started my own city league and started running that for about a couple of seasons. Uh, from there I was like, Oh, fuck, if I can do this, well then I want to be a tournament director because. I want to start running tournaments now and all that. And so I started doing that and then I started from the money that I was making from running tournaments.I would take and put that money into my own team, coed team that I sponsored, and we went to Vegas. We went and played all kinds of like madness. Like midnight madness and Vegas, all worlds, all worlds and stuff. That was just like, little things like that gave me the confidence to realize like, well, fuck, if you can do this, then why can’t you do this?And then once I did this, I’m like, well then fuck, why can’t you do this? And it’s just one after the other after the other. And then, you know, pretty soon, here we are. Uh, there’s a lot more to that story. Um, but I mean, that’s kind of the gist of it. And then, you know, once the, once all the substances and everything were gone out of my life, um, I fell prey to opiates.Man, I got, I got hooked on opiates in 2000. Uh, I’m gonna say 2000. Six, seven, maybe 2009Brian Schoenborn: [00:31:13] pills, like Oxy and shit like that. OrSean Dustin: [00:31:15] Norco.Brian Schoenborn: [00:31:16] Norco.Sean Dustin: [00:31:17] Okay. Yeah. And so I was, I was taking them for like seven years and I got to the point where I was, you know, buying an extra, spend an extra 500 bucks a month on an extra script, you know?And so I stopped doing that. Probably, I would say six months before I started this podcast, and the reason why I stopped doing that, I was like, well, how are you going to talk to anybody about any kind of shit when, when you’re, you know, you’re fraudulent yourself right now, you’re still taking pills, you’re, you know, doing all this other stuff.And so I stopped and then, you know. Cause my podcasts had already, I’d already got everything forward. Like, you know, I’d had it for a year and I just been sitting on it talking to myself. I kept talking myself out of it, you know, basically like what do you, who wants to hear you? What do you, what do you have to say to anybody?You know what I mean? He goes, sit down and pumpkin. I got shit to say.Brian Schoenborn: [00:32:13] Not funny, not funny how that works, man. First of all, cheers to that. That’s a good ass fucking story. Um, I’m going to grab another beer really quick. Hold on a second. But yeah, dude, like that’s a fucking wild ass story, man. I, uh, I wanna know like, what, like, I mean, you said you decided not to do it anymore, but like what was the decision like what was going through your head when like.Sean Dustin: [00:32:37] Or didBrian Schoenborn: [00:32:37] it just hit or did it just hit you one day and you’re like, man, fuck it. I’m not going to do this shit anymore.Sean Dustin: [00:32:42] No, because before I went on my, on that violation and did the 90 days, um, you know, I would, uh, I was trying to get back with my chick, my, my ex wife, and you know, it was, I don’t know, man.It was almost like. So I was chasing her on the freeway, like we were hitting high speeds. And finally she was like, dude, you’re fucking crazy. And she pulled over and stopped and like, what are you doing? You’re going to fucking kill us. And uh, and uh, and I was just like, I was just at my, I mean, it was like, I know where to go.You know what I mean? It’s like she doesn’t want me, my, my, my family, you know, they’re turning their back on me, um, temporarily. You know what I mean? They’re just like, Hey dude, you can’t, if this is how you’re going to be, you can’t stay here anymore. And she’s like, fuck, I’m tired of you using me. And uh, you know, I was just like.I was just like at this wall, and I’m like, fuck, where do I go? You know? You know what I mean? And it’s like everything just came crashing down at one time, man. And I was in the side of the freeway and I was just like falling uncontrollably do just like fuck like. How did I get here and how do I, and how do I fix this?You know? And I was just tired of hearing myself just as much as everybody else was tired of hearing me tell them how it’s going to be different this time. You know, you know how addicts are. It’s always going to be different this time, you know? And, uh, I just got tired of it, man. I was, I was living at home, didn’t have it, didn’t have.Lots of piss in a window to throw it out. Everything that I’d ever gotten, I’d fucking squandered away. Even like cars that my dad had given me, uh, that were my grandparents. Uh, you know, Mercedes fucking. Didn’t give a fuck, man. You know what I mean? It was, uh, I just, I just got tired of being that dude and, you know, I had, you know, I’ve got a daughter out there that, I mean, it’s just, you just start, you just can’t help but to, to look at like, or I couldn’t help but to look at all of the damage that I caused in my wake when I looked back and I’m just like, it’s almost like.If I look back from here all the way to my childhood, I’m like, dude, it’s like a fucking massive tornado went through, went through a small town, you know what I mean? That’s just what it looked like. I was like, fuck, you know, I did all this damage and like, how am I going to, how am I going to fix it? I got a little bit of time and distance away from it by being in jail.And you know, that 90 days I wasn’t on anything. And so when I came out and I was just, I was just trying to keep this upBrian Schoenborn: [00:35:17] and you’re level headedSean Dustin: [00:35:18] and a little bit, it takes about two years to level out, man from fucking meth and your Sarah to your serotonin levels are all off, man.Brian Schoenborn: [00:35:28] I don’t know, man. Like I, like I said, I dabbled with it a little bit, but it wasn’t that long, you know, a few times here and there over the course of a couple of months.Um. But for me, it was like, it was the day after that just fucking, or the next day or two or three or however long it took to get out of your system and just like, fuck this, you know? So I wasn’t, I wasn’t there to get, uh, too involved in that, but I’m fucking, but I sampled, you know, I fucking dabbledSean Dustin: [00:35:54] for sure.Brian Schoenborn: [00:35:55] But, uh, yeah. So I didn’t know it might take two years to get out of your system. I would just think like, dude, if you’re clean for like 30 days, like, I mean, I would imagine. You probably hit your head probably feels pretty clear. That’s,Sean Dustin: [00:36:08] yeah. I mean, it really depends. And how long, what you were doing and how long you were using it.You know?Brian Schoenborn: [00:36:14] That’s what it sounds like. Yeah, forSean Dustin: [00:36:15] sure. You know? And so it ended up just. It’s on the way that I can, the way I can describe it was, you know, have you ever been on it? Have you ever been done ecstasy? And maybe you’ve done like a night where you hit like maybe four or five pills and then when you come down off of that, like how your emotions fuckedBrian Schoenborn: [00:36:37] up, you’re fucking so dead to the world.Like. You’re emotionally fucked up. You can’t eat shit, you know? Again, yeah.Sean Dustin: [00:36:46] So just same thing, just not as intense, but it’s just, you’re still like, you just don’t feel right. You feel off. You know what I mean? You’re just almost like you’re, you’re, you’re walking like a dog looks at you. You’re just sort of walking through life like that until, you know, you can lift your head and go, Oh yeah.Brian Schoenborn: [00:37:07] Well, I think about, so, I mean, you talking, just kind of talk about the other thing, um, on the front end of that conversation you were talking about, um. You know, talking about just accomplishing fucking big shit and getting bigger and bigger, right? Like, I, you know, I, um, I got nothing but respect for that dude.Like, that’s what I’m consistently working on, you know, like I, um, after the, after my military time, which was a fucked up period anyway, I was like, you know, so you talk about growing up and having a tornado. Mine was more like from 19 until present, basically. Like I had, I had my, I’m 38, I had my, my PTSD event.Uh, three months before nine 11. Yeah. And, uh, it fucked me up, dude. You know, for me it’s like I did a lot of partying. There are a lot of fucking. FuckingSean Dustin: [00:37:59] dude,Brian Schoenborn: [00:37:59] my fucking vices. My vices were booze and women, dude. And, you know, uh, smoke a little bit of weed here and there, but, you know, there was a long time, probably from like 24 to probably a good 10 years or so.I didn’t do anything really other than beer. Right. Beer and scotch.Sean Dustin: [00:38:18] Um.Brian Schoenborn: [00:38:20] But man, I fucking, it fucks you up. You don’t realize, you don’t realizeSean Dustin: [00:38:25] what you’re,Brian Schoenborn: [00:38:26] the kind of life you’re living, you know, until you look back on it, you know? But, uh, but, but it’s always been, you know, working on bigger and better things, even though struggling along the way.Right. It’s like, I worked my way up corporate for like 12 years. I got an MBA from a goodSean Dustin: [00:38:39] school. Um.Brian Schoenborn: [00:38:41] But I also went to jail and Tokyo when I was in grad school. Right. And you know, I got married and my wife left me after two years. Right. Like,Sean Dustin: [00:38:50] you know,Brian Schoenborn: [00:38:51] uh, the good with the bad, you know, it’s just kind of all,Sean Dustin: [00:38:54] it’sBrian Schoenborn: [00:38:55] all rolled in there, you know.Um, but the thing is, is, you know, doing big things, like, you know, after my corporate time, you know, I did this. Produced a English premier league event in Australia. Right. And I’ve been working on, um, or we’re going on this, but we’re working on some other projects as well. And like with this one, it’s kind of similar to what you’re talking about, right?It’s like just actually fucking doing it for me. It’s like,Sean Dustin: [00:39:23] I know aBrian Schoenborn: [00:39:24] fucking so many people doSean Dustin: [00:39:25] and all I gotta do is fuckingBrian Schoenborn: [00:39:26] give him a quick text or a phone call. And with her it was through this,Sean Dustin: [00:39:32] I can just kind of like,Brian Schoenborn: [00:39:33] I’m lazy about it, I guess. Right? Or like, even before, like when I, when I lost the show back in November, this has been, what, about six months, something like that.Sean Dustin: [00:39:40] Um. But I, theBrian Schoenborn: [00:39:43] first like eight episodes I had, I had them in my computer stored for like three, three, four months at that point. And I was just, you know, just, I was like, Oh, it’s, my website’s not quite ready, or this and that. And the other thing is that it’s not quite ready. It’s not ready. I justSean Dustin: [00:39:58] sat on it for like three, four months.I’m just like,Brian Schoenborn: [00:40:01] you know, a friend of mine gave me a Swift kick in the ass. He said, Brian, just fucking do it. Just fucking push that shit out thereSean Dustin: [00:40:08] cause cause they’re all going to suck. All your first ones are going to suck. Yeah.Brian Schoenborn: [00:40:14] ButSean Dustin: [00:40:14] you embrace the suck.Brian Schoenborn: [00:40:15] That’s what it is. Cause whether it’s podcasts or whether it’s working out, whether it’s, you know,Sean Dustin: [00:40:20] throwing,Brian Schoenborn: [00:40:21] you know, putting on tournaments or other sporting events or fucking writing books or whatever the fuck else you might be doing, it’s going to suck the first, you know, so many hours of doing it.Sean Dustin: [00:40:33] Until until you, until you find your, like, I was, I was talking to somebody today and I was, uh, I was like, you know, he asked me, he asked me a question about what do you think, you know, since you started, you know, you’ve got what, 35 episodes now and you know, how do you, how do you think you’re progressing?And I said, you know what it, what it kind of is, is like, I feel like. I got my mic personality, like my mic personality is starting to come out. Like I’m getting comfortable on a mic. I’m not, yeah. My, my regular who I am is starting to show to everybody instead of just like a little pieces. Like you’ll get glimpses of, of who you really are because you don’t, you’re not really comfortable with what you’re doing or you’re learning how to, you know, whatever it is.Brian Schoenborn: [00:41:20] Yeah. What I think is interesting about it, um, I have you, I mean, have you used my ex before, like in the past, prior to doing this or, okay. So, so like for me, like I grew up, you know, I wasn’t a punk band in high school, you know, saying I played bass, it was a jazz band, some other shit too. I played drums, um, and bass and, uh, and saying, and so I’ve been kind of around bikes for a long time.Um, so the getting used to the mic thing wasn’t necessarily an issue for me. It was more or less like. Realizing that there’s different things that I share with different people in my life. You know what I mean?Sean Dustin: [00:41:59] LikeBrian Schoenborn: [00:42:00] I’m not saying I’m like hiding shit, but like, you know, it’sSean Dustin: [00:42:03] more like ifBrian Schoenborn: [00:42:04] it comes up, we’ll talk.Right. You know? So people have like different slivers of who I am.Sean Dustin: [00:42:10] So then the here. You know, like this whole, theBrian Schoenborn: [00:42:12] whole province is bringing on super interesting people to like swap swapping stories and shit. Right? Just fuckingSean Dustin: [00:42:17] tell him some shit and like, I’ve gotBrian Schoenborn: [00:42:20] family members or cousins or whatever, for example, that probably, I’ve never heard me swear.I grew up in a strong Catholic family. You know, they’re all Catholic, right? They probably never heard me swear at the family gatheringsSean Dustin: [00:42:34] and.Brian Schoenborn: [00:42:35] You know, talking through this shit like, dude, every other fucking word I’ve got as a curse, right? I got a fucking Marine mouth, man, I can’t help it. I don’t care.Cause those, those words are meeting this to me, right? This is just filler as far as I’m concerned. But, but you know, it was realizing that I, that I have different,Sean Dustin: [00:42:54] you know, people see me through different lenses,Brian Schoenborn: [00:42:57] right. Depending on who I know. And the kind of, the scary thing for me was, okay,Sean Dustin: [00:43:02] Hey.Brian Schoenborn: [00:43:03] Is the content good enough?Right. But like B.Sean Dustin: [00:43:08] What are allBrian Schoenborn: [00:43:08] these people gonna think when they start seeing different versions of me than what they know or hearing different versions of me, what they know. I’m like,Sean Dustin: [00:43:15] you know, they’re gonna beBrian Schoenborn: [00:43:17] like, Brian, who are you are like, that’s so cool. And like, or whatever. You know? They’d be appalled.Are they going to be stoked?Sean Dustin: [00:43:24] Like, yeah. Anywhere in between, which Brian, are you today? I feel like I don’t even know you.Yeah. I, you know, I really, I thought that too, man. When I, cause some of the stuff that I talk about, I mean, I don’t, I don’t hold it back, man. Even if it’s like something that would be super shameful, you know what I mean? Like shits that you do when you’re a kid, you know? Um. I, I mean, if I’ve gone through it, I can guaranteeBrian Schoenborn: [00:43:55] you there’s other people that are going through it.Sean Dustin: [00:43:56] Yup. You know? AndBrian Schoenborn: [00:43:58] that’s exactly, yeah, man. I mean, it’s so easy, like when you’re going through something, it’s so easy to think like you’re the only one. Right. But there’s so many fucking people that have been out there and have had similar experience. It’s not the same set of experiences necessarily, but like, you know, tons of people that have gone to jail, tons of people that had gone to prison, right.All sorts of different types of shit. There’s tons of people that are fucking were stupid little kids. Everyone has a stupid little kid that got, did stupid shit, you know, you know,Sean Dustin: [00:44:25] um, tons of people that did aBrian Schoenborn: [00:44:27] lot of shit that I did but just never got caught. Exactly. Exactly.Sean Dustin: [00:44:32] So, yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s really what it’s all about for me now, is just trying to, trying to, um.Take my experiences and my story and turn it into a book or three, depending, you know, if there’s three, three different parts of it, and uh, you know, but I’ve been doing it the other way around, not the book first. I’m trying to build an organic audience first. So then when I go to do this book with whatever gets done, when it gets done, I’ve already got a base.Of people that are there because of my story and one more of it and one, you know what I mean? They’re already following me. That’s it’s organic. It’s not the follow for follow like for like, you know what I mean? That shit that they do in that, that, that group right. What’s the purpose of having 10,000 followers would only know my thousands,Brian Schoenborn: [00:45:22] right?Sean Dustin: [00:45:23] Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, and then, and then I have all these other ideas, you know, cause I mean, I’m a blue collar dude. I work in a union. You know, they actually just called me today and asked me if I want to go back to work on Monday. And I’m like, no. No. Do I want to go back to work? I’m like, no, I’m on. I’m on disability until the 18th and depending on how I feel, I may be on it until the 18th of June.Brian Schoenborn: [00:45:52] I just got my disability fucking back in February, March, something like that. I don’t know. I finally got my, my military disability paid. I fought for that for fucking 18 years. 18 fucking years and for legal battles.Sean Dustin: [00:46:08] Yeah. Wow.Brian Schoenborn: [00:46:10] That’s part of my story. Right. And so like, you know, I guess kind of along the lines of what you’re talking about, like I, you know, I, I, my first intention with the podcast is I wanted to tell my story, right?But that started because, um, I had this desire that I had to write a book about it, right? So I’m sitting there thinking, I’m getting, I’m getting really into podcasts, you know, that kind of stuff. This is probably about. Year and a half, two years ago, something like that. Then I was like, you know what? I’m like, I should do a podcast about this, you know?So I started putting together to start outlining the whole thing,Sean Dustin: [00:46:40] you know,Brian Schoenborn: [00:46:41] um, sort of building that. And that’s actually three, it’s a three series, a three season, uh, series. Right? So it’s about the same length as yours from, from what I’m understanding.Sean Dustin: [00:46:53] Um.Brian Schoenborn: [00:46:54] But I also decided around that time that I was putting that together.I was in this veteran entrepreneur program, um, at, at a, we work, uh, in Seattle and I was surrounded by a bunch of really, uh,Sean Dustin: [00:47:08] smart,Brian Schoenborn: [00:47:08] talented, uh, hardened veterans that have become entrepreneurs. And some of them are like, yo, Brian is like, they’re like, you should do a talk show. You should fucking interview us.For example, and I was like, alright. And so then I started doing this, right? And then I was like, Oh, okay. You know, I do know a lot of fucking people, so I’m just going to fucking talk to people. Uh. And as I’m doing that, I’m building my audience eight be media’s audience, you know, all of that stuff. So it’ll be, you know, a softer sell for my story when it gets out there as well.Sean Dustin: [00:47:41] So, yeah. That’s cool, man. I mean, yeah, kind of, kind of where I’m stuck at right now is the whole, just, just the writing the book part of it. Like, I mean, literally what I could probably do is just. Everything that I’mBrian Schoenborn: [00:47:54] doing. I told you earlier, dude, it’s just fucking, just record it like a podcast to tell your story orally into a microphone and then you can go to like a, there’s a couple of websites out there.Um, uh, like Otter. Dot. AI actually will, um, I’m not sponsored by them, but you know, they do, they do a really good job, uh, transcribing it. You just upload the audio when you’re done with it. And it takes like, I don’t know, 2030 minutes. I mean, you gotta go through and scrub it cause it’s not perfect, but it’s fairlySean Dustin: [00:48:23] accurate.Yeah.Brian Schoenborn: [00:48:26] You know, and then all you gotta do to turn it into a book is just take the timestamps out of it basically.Sean Dustin: [00:48:31] And then do you send it to like an editor and they, they piece it together andBrian Schoenborn: [00:48:35] they help clean it up and stuff? Yeah. Like,Sean Dustin: [00:48:38] Oh well this would probably be better over here. And you know, that’s cool.Brian Schoenborn: [00:48:45] Yeah. That can storyboard.Sean Dustin: [00:48:47] I mean, you know, also too, just we’re, we’re. Just this space right here. What we’re doing, there’s, there’s something here. You know what I mean? Because the situation that we’re in now, more people are coming to this platform, and I’ll talk to you about my idea once we get off of this, but, uh, yeah, there’s, there’s something there, man.Uh, yeah. So I dunno. I’m trying to work my way out of what I’m doing because I’m 46, man, I got 18 more years in a way. I got 80 more years of me in construction.Brian Schoenborn: [00:49:21] Right. Besides you, this is the, I mean, this is the dream, right? You’re just fucking hanging out and talking to people and having a good time. Like.You know? Yeah. The thing that sucks is, you know, we can’t, we can’t get physically near and do like, I like doing in person interviews myself, but, uh,Sean Dustin: [00:49:38] I do too. I mean, they’re cleaner sound, you know, you don’t have to worry about anything else, but I mean, it’s, at the end of the day, man, people are going to listen to your content.They’re going to listen to it. Whether you got it cleaned up, whether you,Brian Schoenborn: [00:49:50] Oh yeah, for sure.Sean Dustin: [00:49:51] Put the burp out or not, you know?Brian Schoenborn: [00:49:54] I’m not goingSean Dustin: [00:49:55] to, so yeah,Brian Schoenborn: [00:49:59] I just,Sean Dustin: [00:49:59] cause there’s peopleBrian Schoenborn: [00:50:01] where people is what we do,Sean Dustin: [00:50:03] you know? And that’s people. That’s authentic, man. I think people liked the authenticity aspect right now because we’re in a world where things are so fake or have beenBrian Schoenborn: [00:50:12] the world’s fucking crazy. I can’t believe, dude. And this year alone, we’ve had fucking in a possible war with Iran, uh, w what else do we have?The Corona virus. Nobody can travel. Most people can’t even really leave their homes and the entire world.Sean Dustin: [00:50:31] Yup. Yup.Brian Schoenborn: [00:50:32] Some places can’t go from city to city or state to state or province to province, whatever. Almost nobody can travel internationally rightSean Dustin: [00:50:39] now, you know? And theBrian Schoenborn: [00:50:44] only thing that savings people’s sanity right now.Is the internet.Sean Dustin: [00:50:51] Yeah. This kind of stuff. You know what I mean? If I wasn’t talking to as many people as I was talking to in the last six weeks, going on seven toBrian Schoenborn: [00:51:01] be going nuts. Yeah. But  but also like you think about this dude, I mean, not only is the internet, the saving grace, but with all that shit, sorry, this was the point I was originally getting to, but I’m a little stone right now.So my train of thought, but like, cause I’m sitting going, whatSean Dustin: [00:51:15] was I going to say? Um, no, but like even with all thatBrian Schoenborn: [00:51:19] shit that happened in this year, a lot or only, we just entered the fifth month. The PentagonSean Dustin: [00:51:24] released proofBrian Schoenborn: [00:51:26] that there are aliens just like yesterday or two days ago, and nobody gave a fuck.Classified these videos with UFO is like the air force or Navy pilots or whatever, like tailing these fucking UFOs. Dude,Sean Dustin: [00:51:45] that’sBrian Schoenborn: [00:51:45] proof of aliensSean Dustin: [00:51:46] and nobody’s bugging like nobody’s going, OhBrian Schoenborn: [00:51:48] my God, it’s crazy. Or, Oh my God, that’s so cool. People are just like, okay,Sean Dustin: [00:51:54] yeah. What bullets? It’s misdirection dude, though, Nate.So. When you, when you want to, this thing is taking over so much of the, uh, of, of what’s happening in the media right now. I mean, it’s just, it’s just on overload of, of, cause there’s nothing else going on. There’s no sports, there’s no, there’s, there ain’t shit. That’s all they can do is to show, man, all they can do is just, you know, find other stuff.So when they put this out, like everybody’s either, they’re just like, yeah, yeah, whatever, you know, and just, just tired of hearing, you know, I just, I don’t, I just don’t think people believe the government anymore, man. I mean, you know, they’re just, they’re just, I don’t think you can blame anyone,Brian Schoenborn: [00:52:37] you know?No,Sean Dustin: [00:52:39] no. I mean, shit, I mean, they fucking, you know, introduce crack cocaine into the inner cities, you know, the CIA and, you know, Oliver North and the Contras and all of that stuff. Freeway, Rick Ross. I mean, that was a real thing that was proven. Okay. So, I mean, if you’re going to do that to your own population, and that’s pretty bad.And the blacks have had a bad for fucking ever. I mean, it’s,Brian Schoenborn: [00:53:06] this man has been fucking hundreds of years, man.Sean Dustin: [00:53:08] You know? And they’re still getting it. Corona’s getting them. Yeah. You know, so it’s, it’s just, it’s a. I don’t know, man. I just, I hope some, some good shit comes out of this, you know, some equality a little bit, you know, maybe I thought, I thought that we should have all went on a general strike since everybody’s getting paid right now to sit at home and you don’t have to worry about, you know, cause what’s the, what’s the hardest thing?If you’re going to go on strike, it’s me as a union member.  not making money. Right. You know what I mean? You can’t, you can’t, if you don’t have the savings to back you up, or you know any income coming in, or at least somebody else, you know, whatever, right. You’re, you’re not gonna, you’re not going to stand up and fight because you’re like, fuck, I got to go to work.I got to go back. I gotta be, I got bills to pay, man. We’re all in a system where we don’t have to worry about that. So, I mean at the very least, everybody should be on a general strike. Right now I’m trying to get a UBI and Medicare for all because how many people are out of work right now and are losing their Medicare or their medical coverage because they’re, it’s employee paidBrian Schoenborn: [00:54:13] because it’s a test.Yeah. Cause it’s a test to employees. Dude. It’s fucking ridiculous.Sean Dustin: [00:54:17] So I, I don’t know. I mean I think, I think we should get a, uh, you know, Medicare thing. And I’ve been talking to people from like Canada and I was asking him like, dude, what? So tell me about your medical system. You know what I mean? Cause I hear, I hear like bad shit about it all the time and you know that the socialism deal, the argument that they make for trying to nationalize healthcare and she’s like, I’ve never had a problem.I lived in, I lived in England too, and I never had a problem there. Yup.Brian Schoenborn: [00:54:48] Canadian British friends, they’ve never had a fucking bad word to saySean Dustin: [00:54:54] except, yeah. I didn’t have a $2,000 deductible. That’s, that’s gold to me.Brian Schoenborn: [00:55:01] Fucking bankruptSean Dustin: [00:55:02] me.Yeah, I don’t know, man. That’s, I use this time actually, mainly to just get to know people, their situations, ask questions and talk to people that when I want to know something, I mean, kind of like what Brogan does, man, he gets people on it that he has, like he has questions about something that he doesn’t know.Then he’ll bring somebody on and knows and he can ask the questions that he wants to find out about. I don’t have like super, you know, people like him, but I mean, I. Whatever, whoever I’m talking to me, if they’ve got like an interesting subject, then I’ll definitely ask more about it, you know, or have something to chime in about.Yeah,Brian Schoenborn: [00:55:44] so absolutely, man, I feel like we hit a pretty good spot.Sean Dustin: [00:55:50] Yeah. I feel like we’ve, we’ve, we’ve talked enough.Brian Schoenborn: [00:55:53] You got a solid two and a half hours, I think. Something like that, so, well, this one’s one Oh five I think the one before was like 90 minutes. It was pretty close.Sean Dustin: [00:56:01] Okay. Yeah. That one was pretty long.Brian Schoenborn: [00:56:03] Yeah. But right on, dude. That’ll work. Yeah. Give it up for my friend Shawn. Dustin. Wait, no, hold on. Is that what I said at the end? I forget now.Sean Dustin: [00:56:16] Hold on. No, you don’t know your own. Your own sign out. Oh, plug real quick. Oh yeah. Plug. Uh. Yeah, I’ll have my podcast. I have one.Uh, yeah. Well, you can find me at, uh, nowhere to go, but up podcast or nowhere to go. But up. That’s my name and my podcast. Uh, I’m on Spotify, Stitcher, all the major platforms. I heart radio. Um.Brian Schoenborn: [00:56:47] Apple podcasts,Sean Dustin: [00:56:48] Apple podcasts. Um, and then you can find me all my places, social media, Facebook group, uh, any, anywhere though.I’m at merchandi

In part 2 of this 2-part interview, Sean shares his wild story that begins with his time in prison for cocaine and check fraud and ends with finding himself and his path, a new man.

In part 2 of this 2-part interview, Sean shares his wild story that begins with his time in prison for cocaine and check fraud and ends with finding himself and his path, a new man.

Sean Dustin is the writer, producer, and host of the podcast "No Where To Go But Up".In part 1 of this 2-part interview, Sean shares his wild story that begins with getting expelled from elementary school and ends with going to prison.  Show Notes Follow Sean on Instagram No Where To Go But Up Podcast Theme music by: Ruel Morales Audio Transcript Brian Schoenborn: [00:00:00] Hello. Hello everybody. A guest today. He had a time where he hit rock bottom like many of us, and he has turned that around and become a huge success story. We're gonna learn about all of that and more, uh, is coming up. We've got the host, creator and writer of the “No Where To Go But Up” podcasts with Sean Dustin. Give it up for my friend Sean Dustin. So what's up man? How you doing? Sean Dustin: [00:00:24] I'm doing well. You gave me a lot of credit. Uh, a little bit too much, cause, uh, I definitely don't write a whole lot of anything Brian Schoenborn: [00:00:32] in writing is, it's proverbial, right? I mean, you know, I'd be, the way I see, I'm writing a book right now about my own story, right? But I actually record it. I'm actually making a podcast version of it first. So it's more of a docudrama narrative kind of thing. And then I take that audio and I transcribe that, and then I turn that into book form. So I've actually got a book agent, Sean Dustin: [00:00:52] uh, Brian Schoenborn: [00:00:53] waiting for me as she's collecting the chapters and we're working on, you know, negotiating, uh, Sean Dustin: [00:00:59] you Brian Schoenborn: [00:00:59] know, distributor deals, publisher deals. Sean Dustin: [00:01:01] Um, but I'm doing that basically by telling my story. Brian Schoenborn: [00:01:04] So, I mean, I guess I'm a writer too, Sean Dustin: [00:01:05] technically, but Brian Schoenborn: [00:01:06] how much fucking writing am I actually doing? You know, it's all coming out of my mouth. Sean Dustin: [00:01:11] I don't know. Shoot, shoot, shoot me your agent's contact because that's the key. That's the kind of book I need to write. And I got about three of them within my, within my story itself. Right. Um, there's offshoots to all the different, like smaller subs. Set of stories that came from that crazy ass life. Nice. Brian Schoenborn: [00:01:32] So, um, Sean Dustin: [00:01:33] so Brian Schoenborn: [00:01:33] really quick, I mean, you know, we're, we're recording live in quarantine as, as the rest of the world. I'm in LA. Where, where are you Sean? Sean Dustin: [00:01:42] I'm in California, Northern California. In the Bay area. Oh, okay. Right on. Brian Schoenborn: [00:01:46] Yeah. So we've got buried LA. We're just making it work, guys. Fuck it. We're gonna live. Um, anyways, uh, so maybe you could tell, tell the listeners a little bit about your story. Sean Dustin: [00:01:58] Um, Brian Schoenborn: [00:01:59] I want to hear about, I've been dying to hear about it. I'll share mine with you as well once we're, once we get through, here's a little bit. Sean Dustin: [00:02:04] All right. Yeah, I was trying to, I've been trying to refine my story down cause you know how it goes when you're trying to tell it you and you haven't written a written it down like as in like pieces and you just, it sort of goes everywhere. You know what I mean? You jumped from here to here to here and you're like, Oh damn, I forgot I was the best part. Um, yeah. So basically, man, I, I grew up a middle class neighborhood. I look like I'm Hispanic, but I sound like I'm white. So I grew up kind of different than everybody else. You know, there was a black family in my, in my neighborhood, and there was also a, uh, Filipino family next door. And then my best friend was Portuguese, but I was probably the darkest, uh, aside from, from the, the black dude that was down the street. Right. And so I got teased all the time, man. Uh, and I was smaller and so I got picked on and bullied and all of that stuff. My parents ended up splitting when I was around five years old, my mom ended up having to put me into daycare and the only place that she could find was like one town over, cause she worked in San Francisco. Uh, and so she had to commute every day. So I was there for a little while. Uh, I ended up getting expelled from preschool. Brian Schoenborn: [00:03:19] How does that happen? Sean Dustin: [00:03:23] That was a bad ass kid, man. I just, yeah, so you want to know the story about how you got kicked out of preschool? So, I mean, I was. You know, always it just into shit. Right. And, uh, you know, whether it was playing house or doctor, you know, with the, with the little girls running around and just, just always getting into shit. Right. I guess somehow the elementary school that I went to was right behind the daycare, maybe about a quarter mile. So I mean you can literally, you could see the school from the field, right? So you just walked through the field and go there and well kids will go back and forth from school cause there was neighborhoods over here. There's neighborhoods over there. And so I don't even know what the hell got into me. I don't know why he did it, but there was. Uh, to a little girl, a little boy walking by and for, and I just happened to, there was some dirt clods on the ground, right. And I just picked one up and I started throwing it at him, and I didn't realize that there was a rocking in inside one of the dirt, the piece of dirt around it. Right? So it ended up hitting the girl right in her face, uh, right in your nose. Right. And if it was, if it had been dirt, it would have been. It probably would have scratched her and burps it open, but instead it was a rock and it really fucked her up pretty good. So I got in trouble for that and got expelled from there. So I ended up having to go to the school that was down the street from my house. Right. And that was within walking distance, maybe two miles. And I was, that was the third grade. Right. So for the third grade on, I was a latchkey kid. And that's a horrible idea. Whoever came up with the idea of, of having a latchkey kid, that's a horrible idea. Um, because kids need supervision. They need discipline, they need structure. They need all of the things that being a latchkey kid does not have. The components are not there. Um. And so I basically had the run of the house to myself. You know, when I go to home, my mom was always working in the city, so I knew exactly when she would be home. If it was tax season, she would, she worked for a tax firm. Uh, she would be drawn sometimes until nine, 10 o'clock at night. So I have to, you know, make my dinner or fend for myself and do all that stuff. So what ended up happening is, you know, when you're a kid by yourself, when you're in a house by yourself, w w, w what is it? What is any third year a third grader? Do you Brian Schoenborn: [00:05:53] get into trouble, man? Sean Dustin: [00:05:54] Oh, you're rooting through everybody's shit cause nobody's there, right? So I'm going through my mom's stuff looking through every single drawer, trying to find this, trying to find that. Found some marijuana in a bunk. And, uh, for some reason, I don't even know. I, I didn't know what it was, but I knew what to do with it. That's crazy. Yeah. So, and I, I think it was, cause I seen the charred black, you know what I mean? Like something, it didn't burn in the bowl. And so I was just like, Oh well I stuffed it in there and I. I took a puff and cough my lungs out, got my bearings, and felt really good. You know, I felt like, wow. All right. I jumped on my grid. Yeah. I jumped on my skateboard, right. Because we lived on a Hill, like a pretty steep Hill. And I've never would like, I would always get going and then I would be too scared and jump off. Right. Cause I didn't want to get speed wobbles and fall and I jumped on that mother, that damn thing and went straight down the Hill. No speed wobbles doing like 25 miles an hour. Wow. Yeah, it was, from that point on, I was like, Holy shit, this is like, this is like. Superman stuff. Brian Schoenborn: [00:07:11] Nice. I, I won't tell you why when I was, when I was that age, man, like, you know, my parents didn't have that stuff unfortunately because I probably would have bumped into it as well at that time. Uh, but what I did find was my older sister had a huge collection of Barbie dolls. Right. And I, and one time, you know, my parents would take us to a baseball game every summer. We'd go to, you know, grew up in Michigan, so we'd go to the tigers games, and one year I got this like miniature baseball bat, right? It was like a souvenir or something. And so I got the idea. Pulling off the Barbie heads from all of her Barbies, and we started using that as a baseball. Sean Dustin: [00:07:49] So we pitched to each other and we'd Brian Schoenborn: [00:07:51] have some, Sean Dustin: [00:07:55] we'd run around, we could do it inside the living room, we Brian Schoenborn: [00:07:57] could do it outside either way, it didn't matter. We were just like beating the Sean Dustin: [00:08:00] shit out of those things. Probably a couple of weeks went by and his sister finally discovered what was happening, and she was just like, Brian Schoenborn: [00:08:07] she wants me to, Sean Dustin: [00:08:09] but I couldn't. Brian Schoenborn: [00:08:10] I think, you know, talking about weed, like the first time I smoked weed was in like, I want to say the last, it was the last day of school of seventh grade. Sean Dustin: [00:08:19] And Brian Schoenborn: [00:08:19] so you'd beat me by a couple of years. Um, but I'm not, speaking of Superman stuff. I remember, uh, uh, you know, me and my best friend, uh, we went over to this guy who was a little bit older than us and his group of friends, and they're all smoking weed, and they're like, Hey, you want to hit this? I'm like, sure. And, uh, you don't smoke it or whatever. And. And there was this guy that was a little bit older than me. He was, he was a badass, right? He was into like four wheelers and dirt bikes and all that shit. I had a lot of respect for him, you know, and we're all stoned and he looks at me, he goes, Hey Brian, you want to slap box? Sean Dustin: [00:08:51] And I'm like, Brian Schoenborn: [00:08:53] I'm like, all right. Sean Dustin: [00:08:54] And so, Brian Schoenborn: [00:08:55] so we're in this dude's bedroom, but beauty, heaven slap box, you know, I've just figured, but just like fucking around whatever is, I'm just going to lightly hit and I'm lightly hitting him. You know? He's lightly hitting me back and then he gives me good in the face and I like lean back. I Sean Dustin: [00:09:07] wound up and I just. Oh, pay maker do Brian Schoenborn: [00:09:12] goes flying over over our other friend's bed. They're Sean Dustin: [00:09:15] like into this fan. Brian Schoenborn: [00:09:18] I was like, Holy shit. Sean Dustin: [00:09:20] I just did that and he Brian Schoenborn: [00:09:21] got up and he's just like, dude, you just kicked my Sean Dustin: [00:09:24] ass. That is funny. At that point I was like, yeah, that's some super mad Brian Schoenborn: [00:09:28] shit right there. Sean Dustin: [00:09:35] Yeah. The days that we're kids, man, those are great. Um, yeah. Fuck. I was going to say something. I mean, I have to say, Oh look, you're talking about the cool guy with the, with the dirt bikes. I'll see. What I started thinking is Kelly Lee from the, from the bad news bears. Yeah, I kind of like that. Brian Schoenborn: [00:09:53] He's like two or three years old, you know, he had a goatee, you know, he was like ninth grade or something. He had to go to you. Sean Dustin: [00:09:59] That's big. Like fire red. It was Brian Schoenborn: [00:10:03] bad ass dude. You know where the Fox Sean Dustin: [00:10:04] shit and all that stuff. Right? Yeah. Just to kind of wrap it up, cause I mean this thing, this thing could take forever if I try to go through it, go through the whole thing. Right. So. You know, I ended up, uh, doing that, right. I went to a, uh, I was in junior high also. It was fast forward to junior high. I'm seeing my dad every now and then, you know, he does the every other weekend deal, but not nearly long enough, uh, time around for, for a young boy. Uh, to have influenced by, by having a man in the, in the, in the picture, you know what I mean? Like full time, like, like, like, like how I am with my kid, you know? So what ended up happening is I was just, you know, doing whatever I wanted. I was cutting school, like taking my, my buddy had a. Uh, and this is my first crack at fraud as well. It was my buddy had a, these, uh, he'd stolen these things from the dentist's office. Right. And there were, there were like passes or slips that, that you'd fill out to take to school with you to give you an excused absence. Right. Awesome. Yeah. And so I, that was doing that, I was just forging those forging nos, and we would stay home all day long and just like hang out at his house and drink his dad's vodka, all his, all his booze and get drunk. And so, you know, it was doing that, uh, just really not, I was getting suspended and, and, uh, put on, sent to the office constantly. You know, I was a class clown, you know, they literally had my, my. When I was in third and fourth grade, my teachers would, would, uh, wrap my, my desk in corrugated paper wall around me. Right? So I can't communicate with anybody cause I'm always cracking jokes or you just, just a clown, you know what I mean? Talking shit, whatever. I ended up buying, I bought a butterfly knife from somebody right in schools and Hey, you went by butterfly. And I'd be like, yeah, that's fucking cool. I'll buy that. Right. And so, yeah. And so I was playing around with it. In school. And like right before, cause we, you know, junior high, you're now going from class to class, switching periods, right? I'm sitting in there in my history class and I would sit in the back. I always sit in the back and I'm sitting there and the teacher, the teacher's not, not in the classroom. Right? I'm trying to be cool in front of all these, all my classmates and I'm playing and I hear them coming to me. Oh shit. I put it in my pocket. Right? And uh. He comes into the, he comes in that he didn't see that, uh, I missed my pocket and like, literally I moved around and it fucking went to tank tank. Okay. So I got expelled from there twice. Okay. That's two times already. I've been expelled from a school. I got expelled from there. I went and moved down to my uncle's in, uh, South San Francisco, San Bruno area. And then I went to junior high there. Like I went to school there, got kicked out of that place. Um, got shuttled up to my dad's in Sacramento. Uh, he wasn't prepared to deal with the likes of me and that's for sure. And he's 65, like 200 something pounds. I mean, we. We, I was rebelling, uh, you know, and he was just, he wasn't, he wasn't having it, man. So I ended up, uh, flunking out of, uh, seventh grade up there, and then had to go to summer school. And then finally, he's just like, he's like my mom. He's like, take him. I can't deal with his ass. So I mean, you know, there's just like. Well, what am I going to think? You know, what am I supposed to think? Like, damn, nobody wants me, you know, I'm just, just fuck up. You know, I can't seem to do anything. Right. And, um, so when I went back to high school or went back to the school that they kicked me out, the first one or the second one, uh, for the, the knife, and they agreed to let me come back. Right. They're like, all right, well, you know, you're in a bind and you need to finish the school year and we'll, we'll go ahead and let you back in. Um. So about three weeks, three weeks before the, uh, the end of the school year, and I was eighth grade right now. And so my next step is high school, uh, three weeks, uh, before the end of school, I got sent to the office and I, and after coming back, I mean, I was still getting sent to the office all the time and they finally just said, you know what? Go home. Just go home. I'm like, let me go home. He's like, Oh, we're going to socially promote you to the ninth grade. You've got straight F's. Uh, you know what I mean? What? You're just, you're a pro problem. Go home. Don't come back. And so that's how I get suspended. And he was like. No, you're getting it early. You're getting an early summer vacation. Get out of the huts. Brian Schoenborn: [00:14:58] That's crazy. Wait, so you flunked every class. They promoted you anyways, and you didn't have to go for the last three weeks. Sean Dustin: [00:15:08] I want to know who won that one. Oh man. That's how bad I was. And it's like, and I'm like, okay. Cause then it's like now I get to stay home all day and nobody's there cause my mom's in, right. So one of the worst things that I did now in this time period, right when I came back and when I was a junior or a. A freshmen in high school. And mind you, I hung out with all of the older kids, right? Because when I was a freshman, I hung out with the seniors and the juniors just because people that were in my neighborhood, they all knew me. Right. And, um, and they were seniors and juniors and, uh, and I think one, my best friend was one grade ahead of me. Um, so when I, the summer, I think the summer. Yeah. Right. When I was, I think like the first, first year of when I was a freshman, like the first couple of months. Somehow I got it into my head. And so I learned how to steal my mom's truck. Right. Enjoy ride it while she was sleeping because she would go out and she was, she was single and she would go out and she'd come home and like I would know she's been drinking because I could hear her snoring right from below. Right? So I'll like, Oh yeah, I'm like, mom's drunk. She's out. She's out. And so I would literally. I remember, I remember going up to her room right the first time I ever, I ever did this. And before I found that there was a spare key and I knew where to get the spare key. So I would commando on my stomach through her, like where her bed was on the ground, right. And I put my hand up and try to get her keys if they were in her, uh, her purse. And, or if they were out and I would go in and I would open the garage door. And this wasn't a, this was like the old Raj door we got in her bedrooms right next door. Right. So I'm like trying to, thinking that every noise that I'm making is like 10 times louder than it is. I jumped in the truck, right? It was the old, uh, 85, uh, Toyota pickup, uh, with the sr 22 engine that everybody wants. Open it up. I would put the keys in there. I would put it in neutral and I would go down. Remember I told you I live on a steep Hill, right? And so I would back out, like push it back out and coast it all the way down the street. Going backwards backwards to the next street, go up and then bam. Right? So I did this in the summertime for the first time, and I did it because I, there was this chick that wanted to hook up and I was a Virgin at the time. And so I'm like, I'm like, I'm going to get fucked. That's worth it. You know, risk versus reward. Right. So I go over there, right? And I pick her up. Uh, and, and, and uh, take her out to the back roads. I bring a plane, a blanket, and a pillow, you know, cause that's, I got class. Right, right. I'm a gentlemen, gentlemen, you know, I handle my business in the back roads and I take her to drop her off. And then I roll back up and install. In order to get back in there, I have to be going at least 50 or 60 miles an hour up the Hill so I could kill it and coast right back up into the driveway and into the end of the thing. Right. So the first time I did that, the second time I did that, cause she wanted to do it again. But this time she got a little bit bolder and said, Hey, why don't you just come to my house. No, you can sneak into my room. And I'm like, Oh, okay, cool. That's even easier. And so I did that. And the first, the, and this is, this is the last time I did it, and this is why I get there. I park. I get out, I start walking, walk into her house. So the side of the thing and a pit bull is fucking out there. And he chases me up and I jump onto the roof of the fucking car, right? And he's like, wow. And he finally, he goes away. Um, I ended up, I go in there, uh, I get into her room handling business and her dad fucking knocks on the door. Oh shit. Yeah. And I'm like, Oh my God. So I jumped out. I didn't have no clothes on. Right. I jumped out blood ass naked out of the window. I jumped out of the window. Yeah. Well, I jumped into the window to get there. So Brian Schoenborn: [00:19:31] I mean, I figured if you're naked, you would've been like hiding in the closet or under the bed or some shit out of the window naked. Sean Dustin: [00:19:40] I jumped out of the window into the backyard. Right. That's awesome. I couldn't leave my keys cause it's in my pants, right? So I'm like, Oh, Brian Schoenborn: [00:19:48] I'm going to go. Sean Dustin: [00:19:52] And so there's a shed right by the fence and there's about this much of a gap in between it. So I go and I shoved my ass in there and I fucking screwed into the middle. And I'm like. Sitting there, right? Just frozen. There's a motherfucking dog in my ass on the other side of the fucking fence sniffing parking. I'm like, Brian Schoenborn: [00:20:13] shut up. Shut up Sean Dustin: [00:20:16] dad. The dad comes out and, uh. And it starts looking, you know what I mean? You know, I, he, I know, he knows that his daughter, his daughter was getting fucking nailed, right. But for some reason he didn't. He didn't find me to know where I was. Right. So I got out of that one. Uh, she threw the bed clothes out the window and I hopped out after about a half hour, 45 minutes being just stuck there like. That's like 30 minutes of your life too. You're Brian Schoenborn: [00:20:45] right. Sean Dustin: [00:20:47] I'm only like 15 and I'm like, should I go? Should I, what do I do? So that's the last time I did that. Right. Well. My first, my first, uh, time with the law. Right. The interaction, you know, where I got caught up with the law was directly related to this girl that I screwed because I didn't know that she was, had a boyfriend at the time and he was a gang member. Oh shit. Yeah. You know, you guys have the Serranos down there, the Southsiders, we've got North siders up here, so. I didn't know that. I didn't even know that she had a boyfriend. Um, and so anyways, he called me up and he, uh, left a message on my answering machine. Uh, you know, with the tape, the tape player answering machine. For those of you millennials out there that don't understand, don't know what that is. I got, I took that tape down to school and I, like I said, I knew everybody. Like I hung out with the gang members. I hung out with, uh, with the blacks, the whites, the jocks, the drama geeks. I, I re, I hung out with everybody. I knew them all. So I let some of my friends listen to this tape and they're like, Oh, fuck that shit, man. Brian Schoenborn: [00:21:55] Fuck that shit. We're Sean Dustin: [00:21:56] going to get that dude. Let's go, let's go. And I'm like, yeah, fuck yeah, let's go. You know, I'm a little bitch, dude. I'm not a fighter, right. I went back then, I wasn't. And so I'm like, hell yeah. You know, we're going to go do this. And uh, by the time we got there, there was four carloads of dudes. Damn, four, four carloads of guys Brian Schoenborn: [00:22:16] on your side or on their side, Sean Dustin: [00:22:18] my side. Brian Schoenborn: [00:22:19] Oh damn. Sean Dustin: [00:22:21] And so we start walking down. Yeah. We walked down into the, uh, to where the area is, where everybody comes to the convenience store, lunch break and whatever from this high school on the next town over, and we start walking down there. I see them, her and him walking towards us. She bolts out of Brian Schoenborn: [00:22:39] here Sean Dustin: [00:22:42] and he still keeps walking. Man. I'm like. And so I was, I didn't know what I was going to do. I was like, I guess I'm just going to ask me, why did you call my house? I didn't have a plan. You know, these guys had a plan. I did. I did. It was just along for the ride guys. We called up the wrong dudes house brother, but I mean, I felt like a hot shot, you know what I mean? Because it's like, yeah, looking back, got my backup boy now. And uh, so anyways, he comes walking up and I just start to say something to him and before I could even get a word out of my mouth. He, he's reaching for his pocket for something and he just, somebody from the side just hits him. Uh. And then he ends up like boom, boom, gets a pin, pin bald, runs into them, runs into the store, and there's like three more dudes ready to, you know, grab him, bring him back, throw him on top of the counter where the cash register is, not the cash register off. Just literally. And drugs and drug his ass. He ends up getting a hold of the knife, right. And slide is one of my friends across the face. Damn. And I don't blame him, man. I a Brian Schoenborn: [00:24:00] fucking Sean Dustin: [00:24:00] slice. I just thought, I mean, Brian Schoenborn: [00:24:02] I'm just thinking like how much does it got to suck that you're cheated on by your girlfriend and then you get your ass kicked by a fucking gaggle of dudes. Talk about bottoms, man. Jesus Christ. Sean Dustin: [00:24:19] Yeah. So anyways, all of that's on video cause it's in a store. Yeah. I never touched the dude once. I never got to hit him. So anyways, long story short, I ended up getting charged with inciting a riot. Uh, and so I, uh, from that point on, um, my mom got, uh, you know, I was, uh. She couldn't control me, obviously. Um, you know, no, no. My dad's still in and out of the picture, sort of, but I mean, he's like, you know, after that old deal where me and him had a falling out was, it wasn't when, when I got kicked out of school and, and left from there at one point I went up there because I was trying to hook up with this chick and I knew my dad was on, uh, on vacation and I still had keys to his place. And I was, I wanted to hook up with this one broad. Uh, did I went to the junior high with go still in contact with her. So I, I, I drove up there or somehow I got up there. I don't know how I got up there. I think, I mean, I'd taken a bus up there like Greyhound and. Aye went to his house and I jumped over the fence and went in and his neighbor saw me going in and called him. Well, what I didn't know is that my grandmother at the time, uh, his mom was, had, was having issues and was in the hospital dying. Right. Brian Schoenborn: [00:25:43] Oh shit. Okay. Sean Dustin: [00:25:44] And so he had to come all the way up there, leave her come all the way up there and get me, and she died on our way back. That's great. So, yeah. So, uh, that, that, uh, that really put a monkey wrench in our relationship because, you know, I was the reason why you, you know, and couldn't be there for the last Brian Schoenborn: [00:26:07] moments. Sean Dustin: [00:26:07] Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I mean, I get it, man, if that happened to me, you know, with my mom and him and his mom were pretty close, so. I mean, it makes sense. I, you know, yeah. And so, anyways, now that's on my mind, you know, that, that weighs on me now. So I've got these accumulation of things, you know, like, fucking nobody wants me. I'm a, I'm a fuck up. I can't do anything right. Everything I touch turns to shit. Look, when I, my dad fucking doesn't even like me anymore. So I've got this narrative that's getting built in my own head. Right. And, uh, so I ended up. Trying meth for the first time. Uh, and the reason why I did that, and I think that was like the summer of my, uh, freshman year. Right. So, and, uh. The reason why I wanted to try it so bad was is that all my friends were doing it and it wasn't meth at that time. It was crank back then. Bikers were still doing it. They still are, but they've changed. They've refined their process. Right. All of my friends were doing it and like when we would hang out, they would all disappear and go into their room and go into a room and lock it, and I wouldn't, that was the youngest. Obviously they didn't want to be responsible for. Turning the youngest dude onto it. And all of these other guys had already done it, and they knew I didn't do it. So, I mean, w thank you. That was cool. But it just made me want me to make me to want to do it more. And so I was hanging out with, my dad ended up marrying, uh, the neighbor down the street. He divorced my mom, and then the neighbor that lived down the street and another court, uh, I guess he met her in somewhere. And, uh. She had a sister, two sisters, and they were both stoners and like they were all, they were like meth, meth addicts. And so I think I had known that that was available there. And so I went down and started hanging out there because she was like my step grandmother. So she's letting me come down and hang out all the time cause I just really, really live right up the block. And that's where I got it. That's where I got it. Got it from her. I got it from my aunt. She was like, she was like 10 years older than you at the time. Brian Schoenborn: [00:28:08] Did she know that she was giving it to you or. Sean Dustin: [00:28:11] I don't know. I probably Brian Schoenborn: [00:28:13] like stealing it or we're like, I mean, Sean Dustin: [00:28:16] no, she gets, she, I, she smoked foil, smoked it on the foil right there. Right. And so I think, I think I probably, probably, if anything, I probably lied about it and said, Oh, you have done it before. Brian Schoenborn: [00:28:29] Well, yeah, because if you've done it before, then the pressure's off, right? You're like, all right, well, you know what you're getting into. Sean Dustin: [00:28:34] Yeah. Well, it's not my fault, right. He's going to get it from somewhere. Brian Schoenborn: [00:28:39] That's funny, man. That that kind of reminds me of not, not the segue a little bit, but, uh, you know, it kinda reminds me that there's a lot of parallels between our childhoods. I think, Sean Dustin: [00:28:48] um, like. Brian Schoenborn: [00:28:50] Somehow I was able to pull up good grades. I graduated top 10 in my class. I knew everybody, you know, but it was a small Podunk town in the middle of Michigan and 95% white people. Uh, one black family, one, uh, one Asian family that owned the, the, the son of the black family was the star running back and the Asian family owned the Chinese restaurant. Go figure. Sean Dustin: [00:29:11] Uh, Brian Schoenborn: [00:29:12] everyone else, everyone else was white except for like the last little 5% were basically Mexican. Are Latinos right? Everyone got along. And, you know, like I said, I was smart and I was popular, that kind of stuff. But I was also a fucking rebel dude. Like, you know, like I said, the first time I smoked pot was the last day of seventh grade. Sorry, mom and dad, if he didn't know. Oh, well. Um, you know, it was a long time ago, but, you know, I dabbled a little bit, a couple other things in high school. I didn't do math until I was in the military. Um, but that was after I'd already had PTSD and I was kind of fucked up. So I started, dabbled with it for a little bit. Um, but I was always more into other things. Like. Uh, I liked ecstasy, acid, stuff like that. But I mean, even when I was in high school, like I was in a punk band. I did some sports and some other shit too, but I was in a punk band. Um, and like headlining, like every weekend. Um, our bandwidth, and I can't tell you how many times I was like tripping while I'm on stage. Sean Dustin: [00:30:07] I'm like 16, 17 years old, right. Brian Schoenborn: [00:30:10] If I could Sean Dustin: [00:30:10] flip it the fuck out, Brian Schoenborn: [00:30:12] but like, still being able to play, Sean Dustin: [00:30:14] um. Brian Schoenborn: [00:30:15] You know, and, and, you know, fucking around sneaking into places like I used to, uh, speaking of sneaking out Sean Dustin: [00:30:21] like, God, I used to sneak out almost every night. Brian Schoenborn: [00:30:25] Like we had a pretty big house. It was a small town. It's a pretty big house. My parent's bedroom was all the way on the, on the East end of the house. And the door that we always used to go in and out was always on the West end. Right? So it'd be, I figured out how to like, open the door without, Sean Dustin: [00:30:39] without squeaking, Brian Schoenborn: [00:30:41] just real careful. And they'd always hang their keys, like, uh, in the kitchen. They're hanging up in the kitchen so I could grab them real Sean Dustin: [00:30:48] quick and Brian Schoenborn: [00:30:49] go out and I'd take off and, you know, whether it was going to like, get laid or like just hang out with my friends or whatever, you know, we'd, we'd like to smoke cigarette or have some beers, smoke some weed, whatever, that, you Sean Dustin: [00:30:58] know, whatever the fuck else. Um. Brian Schoenborn: [00:31:03] Yeah, I miss those days. It was fun. But like back then, it seems so dangerous. You're like, Oh, we're fucking rebels. We're doing crazy shit, whatever. Sean Dustin: [00:31:11] And now it's just like, you know, it's life. Brian Schoenborn: [00:31:15] It's life. You know? Sean Dustin: [00:31:16] That's funny. So part of it, so part that I, that I skipped, so this is, uh, I just kinda missed it so. In the ninth grade, towards the end of the ninth grade, I ended up, uh, so since I know how to drive this truck and I have this, uh, the spare key now, right. Or know where it is at least. So I'm like, you know, I just, I want to cut school and I want to go hang out and do this, uh, whatever. So I decided to take the bus. To the Bart station, right. And go to the Bart station that my mom parks her truck at two for her commute to go to the city. Right. And I steal it from there and I drive it back home. Right. And I'm rolling around school, you know, get them, get a group of people together with me. And this is probably about. Maybe nine. I mean, yeah, probably about, no, about 10, 11 o'clock. Right. And I already know my mom's not going to be home till around, or at least get to the Bart station until nine, nine 30, something like that. Cause it's tax season. And so I, you know, we're partying at the house, drinking a little bit and, uh, but not getting drunk, uh, just having some drinks and, you know, at my house and my friends, so my other friend stole his mom's car and it was, uh, it was a, uh, a Mustang. And it was way better than, than that little tan pickup, right? And so I'm like, Hey, I want to drive that back to the Bart station, and then you can drive the truck. You know what I mean? That's got a good deal for you, right? And he's like, yeah. He's like, I don't know how to drive a stick. And I'm like, Oh, man. I said, does anybody know how to drive a stick? And my buddy Eric, he was like, yeah, I think so. You know, I didn't, you know, I was thinking, Oh, sounds like get a guest to me. So I tried to tell, I'm like, well, I'll teach you how to do it right. And so. We're backing it up and he punches it and I'm like, I'm like, are you sure you got this? And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's all good. And he didn't turn the wheel because it was a manual steering. Right. And he didn't turn the wheel after he went this way, cause the wheel just automatically rolled around and luckily didn't hit anything. And he, and he punches it again. Son of a bitch sister. Me and him are both in there, right? He hops the curb and he runs right into my fucking house. Brian Schoenborn: [00:33:41] Shit. Sean Dustin: [00:33:45] Doing about five to seven miles an hour. Oh my God. Your mom must have been so busy. That's not the end of it. Brian Schoenborn: [00:33:59] Go on. Sean Dustin: [00:34:01] All right, so anyways, like the four dudes that were sitting on the up, I'm up on the by the front door and like they just watched this whole thing. They're just like, they're just, they're blessed and a laughing, right? I just like, fuck you. Me and him get out of the car and I'm like. I'm like, how am I going to hide this Brian Schoenborn: [00:34:24] in Sean Dustin: [00:34:24] your house? Yeah. I wasn't thinking about like, Oh man, this is horrible, man. What am I going to tell my mom? I'm like, how am I, how can I hide this? What can I do to hide this? Cause like I could and like everything started going through my head, like what I could do to get out of this what I do, you know what I mean? And that's how my mind works. It, my mind always worked on how can I get out of getting, or how can I get out of trouble? And then how can I get out of doing anything else, like a work around? And so anyways, I ended up having to drive it back. I grabbed a pillow and a blanket and a like, of course I'm like, dude, what am I, what am I going to do? I can't hide it. I have to. I have to come clean. You know what I mean? It's like probably the first time in my life I ever told the truth. And so anyways, I go and I park and I fall asleep and I told my mom. And so anyway. Once this I like, I had to tell her everything that happened, and this is like 10 o'clock at night. Dude. She literally dragged me over to homeboy's house that, that, uh, drew was driving, right? Uh, and in some other person's house and like all my friends, dude. And so, like embarrassed the shit out of me. That's great. Yeah. I mean, didn't get anything out of it that she wanted. I was like, dude, they're not going to pay for it. I'm going to told him to get in the car and drive. And, uh, so yeah, there was a hole in my room and it hit right perfectly in between, in the stud between the fucking wall in the room. So there's a hole in this room, and then there's a hole in this room. So after, after that, she, uh. I think it was either after that or there was another incident where my aunt came in to live with us and I threw a party, uh, during lunchtime. In like Brian Schoenborn: [00:36:08] a lunch party. Sean Dustin: [00:36:09] Yeah. Like we cut school again. I had a bunch of people come up and I drank too much and passed out and got drunk and somebody ripped off like jewelry and fucking all kinds of shit. So there was that, uh, she ended up sending me to a, you know, what outward bound is. That wilderness program where they send the kids that are bad to try to build confidence and whatever. And so I ended up going to this one in Joshua tree. There was a two week program in Joshua tree and literally like they see they. You have to, they drop you off, you get a map, uh, and you're with some guys and a bunch of people and there's a counselor, and then you have to figure out where your food drops are and all this other stuff. It's really to build confidence in teenagers because, you know, lack confidence and do stupid shit. Right? So I went through that and, uh, uh, I mean, just nothing worked, man. I was just a bad kid. Ended up, uh. Doing a one 51 what did, juvenile hall did? A one 51 at the boys ranch ended up, and this isn't an order, but this was just around that same time. And as a consequence of, of all of that behavior, uh. I ended up getting a violation and they gave me an option to do a night, uh, six month drug rehab, inpatient or, uh, 99 months in juvenile hall. So, of course, I wanted the six months in a, in a, in a group home setting where there was females there, right. The opposite sex. So, I mean, that's all I was thinking around. Um, went to that place. Uh, you know, six months turned into 18 months because you. When you're in a drug rehab, it's not about time. It's about progress. I was manipulating my way through the whole thing. Uh, you know, whether it was having dude, people from the emancipation house buy cigarette packs, bring them to me and I'm selling them for a dollar a piece, $2 a piece to the clients, cause you're only allowed seven. So I'm hustling in there cutting hair. Yeah, well, I think when I got finally somebody ratted on me and they went into the event and they found like a roll of fucking cash, like Lucy's, of course there's a sex story in here. I ended up, I ended up hooking up with this one chicken there, and I was like, you know, we're never going to get away with it and trying to screw here, so let's just leave. I had cash, right. Because I was, I, you know, so what we did is, uh, we took off, uh, we're hanging out. When we got on the Bart train, uh, I was like, there was nowhere for us to go. And I'm like, well, fuck, let's just go to my house. I know what my mom's going to be leaving at some time. Right. So we went to the house, but she had locked everything up. So I, there all of my ways to get in, I couldn't get in anymore. But what I did have was I had this, uh, we hung out, we lived in that were Hills were right. And so there's Hills all around the houses. So I had a Fort that was up in the Hills that when I had left, I remember I had a tent up there cause I would go up there and I'd sleep sometimes. Uh, you know, it's replaced to, I tried to grow weed and I tried to do all this. It was like my spot, right? Yeah. And so I took her up there and I banged her in the in the tent and got what I wanted, and then I was like, all right, well. What are we going to do? And so as soon as my mom came home, I'm like, all right, well, I'm ready to go back. Uh, we packed it, went back to the treatment place. It was in big trouble. Uh, and, uh, yeah, I, I made it through there and then I did good for a little while. And, uh. Once I got out of there, you know, I got a job and I was like 18. When I got out. I got my GED. I was in there doing, uh, this is where I first got my, my, uh, introduction to public speaking because I was doing so well in there. And I'd written some, uh, some, uh, essays and gotten a couple of scholarships for my writing. And. Also did a, uh, outreach to high school. So I go to high schools and I would go and tell my story to all the kids, right. And, uh, but I couldn't figure out a way how to transition that when I got out. How to, how to turn it into something because none of this was available, you know, and podcasts hadn't come out. Uh, Tony Robbins was just scratching the surface, you know, and there was a couple of the guys that were before him, um. So I just kinda like, alright, well I went back home and somehow I ended up moving up to Sacramento. Uh, I used the girl and, uh, I here, this is a shady story, but this is just kinda like to paint a picture of like how, like how my, what my mindset was, man. Brian Schoenborn: [00:41:03] I mean I sit there and I like, I'm laughing cause I'm like, on one sense it just sounds like Sean Dustin: [00:41:08] pure Brian Schoenborn: [00:41:08] like. In a sense, right? Just doing stupid shit, whatever. Right? But on the other side of things is, you know, that's also like a pattern of stuff too, right? So it's like, you know, like the more, the more stupid shit you do, the harder it is to kind of get away from continuing. You know, it's like that cycle, right? It's like a virtuous cycle or the fun virtuous cycle, wherever the fuck you want to call it. Uh, but I'm Sean Dustin: [00:41:31] laughing because I'm like, Brian Schoenborn: [00:41:32] dude, this was a bunch of shit that I would have Sean Dustin: [00:41:34] done to like, see, you know, you know, um. Brian Schoenborn: [00:41:38] But anyways, Sean Dustin: [00:41:38] go ahead. Yeah, yeah. So it, uh, that's, that's kind of where it went. Right. And, and, uh. I moved up to Sacramento and how I had, I had done this, me and my buddy, we were like, Oh, we gotta get outta here. Let's get out of, and me and him were, were doing meth together, right. Or, or crank, whatever it was. And me and him had become best friends. And he went and was staying at my house all the time. And, uh. And this is when I was out. So I really wasn't doing anything, didn't have a job, wasn't doing anything. Mmm. And I'm like, dude, we gotta get outta here. Let's go, let's go move to, uh, to Sacramento. I got, I got a bunch of money coming, and that's what we did. We went and moved up there. I was with this one chick and she was my girlfriend, and she had. Bought a car and put it in my name after I got up there. Right. Because she needed a car. Somehow the, the loan didn't go through and they, uh, had me returned, returned the car, and, uh. They gave me the check, they wrote the check and put it in my name. Brian Schoenborn: [00:42:45] Hmm, nice. Because the Sean Dustin: [00:42:47] title was in your name for the down for the down payment. Right. Bad, bad idea. So needless to say that she was gonna, uh. Do something like she was saving money to, to move out and do this, but she wanted to get this car or whatever. Well, I ended up cashing that check and I blew all that money. It was like 2,500 or something like that. And, uh, she ended up having it broken. I'll have her. And so she moved up there. Um, but I in no way, shape or form boyfriend material, you know what I mean? I had friends that were living in Chico. Uh, I would. I would go up there and I would sell a get an ounce of crank from, from one of my buddies and I'd go up there to Chico state and I'd sell fucking like the whole thing in twenties wow. You know what I mean? Cause all the kids are up there trying to cram for finals and stuff like that. And so they're like. They don't know. They don't know, well, let me just get a teen or let me get a ball. They're like, let me get 10 twenties and I'm like, alright, I'll give you one. And so I'd stay on for. For days at a time, man, and never even contact her or, or anything like that. I, you know, I cheated on a surf umpteen times up there. Fuck dude, I'm in a college town on, on crank, you know, so. Uh, she ended up, that lasted for a little while and I had jobs in between here and there, here and there. But I'm attaching some, she's the fuck up, man. Everything, everything I did didn't, never really, I never took anybody's else's feelings into consideration. Every, every person was a, as a stone for me. You know what I mean? What can I, what can I do to, to, how can you have, be, be of service to me and my needs and what I need from you? And, um. So, yeah, she gave me a dose of my own medicine, cause you know, we lived in a two bedroom apartment upstairs and one of my buddies was a grower up there and she killed me, grown indoors. And so I went and bought all of the shit to do, uh, to do indoor growing. Right. So I had 2000 white lights on a sun circle that's fun around, set up this whole upstairs room to do, to do all this stuff right. Uh, had everything on timers and shit, but I didn't know what I was doing because I had all this equipment, but I didn't know how to really utilize it. I didn't know how to grow weed, even though I'd been trying to do it my whole life. Um, and so it just, you know, I had at one point, I had like 16 plants in here, but they were all real stringy buds cause it was like 90 degrees in there the whole time. You know what I mean? And so it, it, it was kind of a bust, but I had a new one going and I'd figured something out. Well, she had gotten tired of my shit, right. And she's, uh, I knew that something was up. And, uh, she was, she went to go hang out with you. I want to go spend the night at my friend's house. And I'm like, alright, I knew something was up. Right. And so. Mind you, I talked her into becoming a stripper too. Alright, so not, it's not only, not only did you know that's how good of a dude I was like, damn, how can I get the most money out of you? Well, Brian Schoenborn: [00:46:05] I mean, it's also the oldest profession, so I mean, you know, Sean Dustin: [00:46:10] and so I do, I live literally, I, uh, delivered her to the door, cause just like, you know, I used to be a stripper. She went and she auditioned. She got into it. Uh, I knew something was up. And so when I just kinda like, like hung low and it was like surveilling her when she left and it turns out she was fucking around with the, uh, with the door guy. Right. And I didn't try it. I didn't try Brian Schoenborn: [00:46:34] mother Sean Dustin: [00:46:35] fucker. And I was like, all right, it's cool. I know, you know, that's really what I want. I just wanted to know Brian Schoenborn: [00:46:39] you didn't roll up four Sean Dustin: [00:46:40] cars deep. Nah, Brian Schoenborn: [00:46:43] not that time, Sean Dustin: [00:46:44] at that time. Uh, so yeah. Uh, what ended up happening there is I, you know, I told her, Hey, I know what's going on. And I, I whatever, it's uh, you know, and I think one day when I was, uh, at work, cause I was working at a Marie Callender's. Somebody called and asked if I was working right. And I didn't think anything of it. Well, when I went to go home, um, because she had, had been staying with dude and would come when I'm not there and, but the place was even her name, so she was just kind of really waiting for me to get my shit out. Hmm. I think, I don't know. I don't even know what it was. But anyways, I showed up there. The locks were changed. I couldn't get in. Uh, all my stuff is inside and the grow room and all of that equipment. Right. So I hopped up, I hopped the, uh, the balcony, and I. Rip the sliding glass thing off the off the tracks and get in and out. All my plants, all my equipment, everything's gone. My dog's gone. Uh, all everything that we've gotten together was gone on. So she'd had that dude, did she see now she went and moved in with him and he helped her do all that right. And so she'd had a couple of bags of her clothes that she had left there, you know, couldn't get whatever. I took all those, dumped them in the middle of the fucking floor bottles of bleach and, uh, persisted to plead shit out of her clothes. Yeah. I bleached symphony the whole fucking living room of the apartment. Even the, even the, uh. The, what's McAllen? And then to top it off, uh, I was like, all right, well there was a 50 gallon fish tank and it was my fish tank. And I'm like, why? I know where to put them on fucking now. So, uh, boom, busted it fucking, Brian Schoenborn: [00:48:36] no Sean Dustin: [00:48:36] shit. Uh, flood flooded out the, uh, the downstairs neighbors apartment. Right. So, so she got, so I hope that, uh, I mean, and I'm not advocating people do that now, but I mean, my mindset back then was like, well, I hope all my shit was worth it. Brian Schoenborn: [00:48:54] Yeah. You're not vindictive at all right Sean Dustin: [00:48:58] now. I'm not petty. It's like Brian Schoenborn: [00:48:59] somebody, Sean Dustin: [00:49:00] somebody call me Tom petty the other day. So anyways, yeah, I didn't get in trouble for that. She ended up getting foot, having to foot the bill for all the repairs of that. I was friends with the manager, uh, cause she has a chick that I used to hang out with. And so she ended up running me another apartment. She knew who I was growing the weed. She knew I was doing all this other shit, and she just let me rent one right down the way for after about four months, like let it cool down a little bit. Um, and then from there, man, I just, uh, you know, I just got involved with, uh, there was another incident where my homeboy. I was living in, I was living in an apartment. My boy, another buddy moved in with me. He was working, he was a bartender at one of these really popular, uh, uh, nightclubs in Sacramento and, uh, where the Kings used to hang out. Right? The second one, the Kings, this was way back, not, not any time recently. Um, and so anyways. We were hanging out and my other buddy was, you know, his ex was a stripper, and I guess he had done, she had done him dirty and she was like, he was like, well dude, you want to hit a lick? And I'm like, yeah, I'm always down to get free money with them. What's up? So he was like, I know where my ex keeps all of her cash. And, uh, she's got about 20 or 30,000 in there. And, uh, she all, I saw, I got just figure out how to get in the house and I'm like, done. Went and got a lock pick set, uh, taught my other buddy how to do it, you know what I mean? Cause he was going to be the one I said, I'm paying for the lockpick sex. I'm the only one that's got any money and the rest of the year you're going to have to figure out how to do the rest. Right. I didn't want to get my hands dirty. So anyways, he ended up doing that. And uh. We ended up making like seven or $8,000, and we split it. And, uh, so I was trying to be a baller. I live in like a baller hanging out. Uh, we were going to nightclubs. And I remember this one that I took a limo. Uh, so that nightclub right where he worked and, and he was giving us a, you know, we would just give him like. A car and he would hold it and then act like it was a tab, and then we just pay him out some cash for a tip at the end of the night. Right. So it looked like, it looked like we were balling. We ran, I ran into this one dude who I started selling cocaine for, and there was a, there, there was somebody who was trying to confront him, and I didn't really even know him. Uh, but we were talking and we were cool. Right. And, uh, somebody ran up on him and I had, uh, a group of people with me, like an entourage could, we came in, in the thing. And so I had gathered all of them and you had this dudes back, and from that moment on, so you know, when you, have you ever, you ever been friends with a dude? Kinda like, like right when you meet. It's like you two were just, Oh yeah, for sure. Joined at the hip. You know what I mean? It's like, damn. It's like, and it doesn't happen all the time. No, Brian Schoenborn: [00:52:06] it's a straight up romance dude. That's what it is. It's fucking romance. Sean Dustin: [00:52:10] And so, yeah, so it was like. He kind of took me under his wing and like I was at his house all the time and he was married so, and his wife likes me. And so that's where I really started selling drugs at. And, uh, I was in a raid with him at his house cause he had gotten busted and he went to prison. Um, and, uh. Yeah. That was a whole fucked up situation because then I went and lived with her too. You know what I mean? Like help her out with the rent and everything else. Uh, you know, I wasn't fucking around with her or even try to, um, but I was still partying all the time cause I hung out with all these strippers and figuring out how to do what I was doing. Right. I was working in the strip clubs. I was, you know, I think my, my schedule was, the only day I was off was Mondays. It's Tuesday through Sunday. I was either selling in any of the nightclubs, because at one point I was a bouncer of one of these nightclubs. And so I knew all the, all the people that worked there, I was selling ecstasy, GHB, cocaine, mushrooms, uh, you know, you name it, man. When I was living in Sacramento, dude, I was fucked. And so like to the point where I would have people come into my townhouse, like we'd all go party at the, at the club, and after hours was always at my place, and then that's where I would sell more drugs. You know, I'd fucking bring the people there. We have a DJ there. My homeboy's a DJ. And so, um, yeah, that's, you know, that was my life. And I mean, I even had the, my nickname was mr. After hours, if anybody out there listening in Sacramento, Roseville, California area, remember that name, mr. After hours. There we go. That's, uh. Yeah. So, uh, it just, you know, it just kept, I, I just never, you know, I, I ended up hooking up with this other strip for the, you know, I was at one of the clubs that I was selling at. Um, I just got into all kinds of shit, man. I was a there. There's, when I was doing GHB, you remember what that is right. Yeah, well, yeah. Well, I mean, that's what they call it. It can be used for that. Yeah. And so I was on that. I was taking that quite a bit. Right. And it for, it's kind of like marijuana, when you build a tolerance to it, it's your functional on it, right. To a point on it. And so I would get to that point, man, where I would black out standing up. I would, I would black out cause I would just take so much of it. Right. But my, my mind is still going, but my body or, or the other way around, I don't know which one it was, but one of them was still going and the other one wasn't. Yeah. And so I could drive this way and there would be times when I would, uh, I would be driving and I knew that like, here's the exit that I wanted to take. I knew that I knew I want to get off over here and I'd be 20 miles down the road. And I came to not knowing how I got there. Oh, it hadn't wrecked. Yeah. And so just constantly things like that, you know what I mean? And, um. What, how I got to Vegas from there. Um, you know, cause I was into raves and the rave culture, I was going to raves all the time. There was tons of people. Uh, I almost in that period of time, I almost died like three times on overdoses. From ecstasy, you know, mixing drugs, ecstasy, GHB, alcohol. Um, and that was, uh, that really gave me an idea of how insignificant I was, even though I was popular. Um, they all, they, they left me there, you know what I mean? I was falling at the mouth and it's like, they were just like, Oh, well he can say he'll sleep it off. And now, luckily I did wake up, you know, and, uh. Yeah. Because you know, when you're foaming at the mouth like that, that's an obvious sign that you're having a reaction. Brian Schoenborn: [00:55:58] Well, I mean, I'll tell you too, like, I wasn't on the rave scene for awhile too, when I was younger, man. And, uh, you know, this was back when the, uh, when the, when the rave scene was underground warehouses. Sean Dustin: [00:56:09] Right? Brian Schoenborn: [00:56:09] Yeah. And, uh, I mean, I didn't fuck with Jay. I've been drugged three times at probably GHB, but it's been against my knowledge or against my will, obviously. So I don't really know what that feels like. But like, my rave drugs of choice were always acid ecstasy. Ketamine was a good booster for that shit, Sean Dustin: [00:56:27] you know? Brian Schoenborn: [00:56:28] Um, but I mean, if there were, if there were enough of it that, you know, if I took enough of it, I'd be tripping for like. Yeah. That's the one time at trip for like three days straight, dude. I was like, when the fuck is this coming out? But I was never foaming at the Sean Dustin: [00:56:40] mouth, so I was never at the point where like, Brian Schoenborn: [00:56:42] you know, am I overdosing or not? It was just, you know, it was just fucked up for more than one day, Sean Dustin: [00:56:48] which is crazy to think about. You know? Yeah. So the last thing I remember before that happened, right, cause I was already, you know, I started the night with some cocaine, you know, doing Coke, cause that's what I was selling to. Um, and then I, you know, was drinking, doing some, uh, I did a couple of tabs E in that night, in that timeframe, uh, did some G and then when I came back to that apartment, I took a shot of a tequila and then I, and then I dropped a hit. I dropped the tag, a gel cap shoved in my ass. So I mean, that's the last thing I remember and it was, then I woke up in the morning and that wasn't enough for me because as soon as I got up, I was looking for the GHB so I could still, I mean, it was, I could never get high enough. Oh, I said, I said that wasn't enough because after I woke up and I passed out and woke up, I went looking for the GHB so I can get high again. Um, you know, so that was never enough for me. Yeah. I just wanted to keep going and stepping it up and stepping it up. Brian Schoenborn: [00:57:52] So did you say you were in Vegas for what? Like were you living in Vegas or were you just like, they're raving? Sean Dustin: [00:57:56] Yeah. Well, no, I lived in Vegas after I lived in SAC. So the reason why I left. Brian Schoenborn: [00:58:00] When did you live in Vegas? I lived in Vegas too, actually. So Sean Dustin: [00:58:04] I lived in Vegas. Early to the early 2000 yeah, 2000 because my daughter was born their first daughter, so that's 2000 through probably 2004 is when I got arrested and went to prison. Brian Schoenborn: [00:58:18] I was there from 2006 to 2009 so yeah. Would have just missed each other. Sean Dustin: [00:58:25] This is a weird place. Brian Schoenborn: [00:58:26] Vegas is crazy. It's, dude, it's such a weird place. Like, it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. Like, I, you know, like I knew, I knew like some of the top photographers and shit like that inside the clubs. So like, you know, I never had to, never had to wait in line. You know, if I, if me and my friends saw group of hot chicks, we'd bring them with us and we never had a pink cover, you know, half the time we'd get free booze or whatever, table service, whatever else. Sean Dustin: [00:58:50] Um. I had a pluggage raise, uh, for awhile before, before drays was what it is now. Brian Schoenborn: [00:58:56] Yeah. I remember that. Sean Dustin: [00:58:58] This was the small, small drains, you know what I mean? Just like a little, like a dungeon when you go down in there. Brian Schoenborn: [00:59:04] So, so when I was there, I mean, I like, so my, a friend of mine. Uh, he is now like the most prominent photographer in Vegas. He shoots everything at the, uh, the T-Mobile arena or whatever it is. When, when they do the awards shows, sporting events, Las Vegas nights, he does all the UFC shit, uh, everything ESPN related. Like he's, he's big time. But he got us started. He was one of the first photographers that was going into nightclubs and taking pictures of people having fun. And then they would put it in posted on a website. I don't know if you ever heard about that shit. I don't know if that was after you, um, after you went to prison or whatever. But that was, that was the early, that was like 2005, two thousand fourteen thousand five, 2006 when that stuff was starting to happen. Sean Dustin: [00:59:50] Yeah. Um. Brian Schoenborn: [00:59:52] And, I mean, he's making fucking buck now, dude. He's, he's trying, he's probably closing in on like half a million a year, Sean Dustin: [00:59:59] right? Yeah, yeah. To a regular dude like us. You know what I mean? Right. Brian Schoenborn: [01:00:06] Total baller status, dude. Especially when you start by like just taking pictures for free and posting them on a website. Sean Dustin: [01:00:12] Yeah. Like what everybody does now. Brian Schoenborn: [01:00:14] Yeah. It was one of the first guys to do it. Sean Dustin: [01:00:17] That's funny. That's what Instagram is now, right? Brian Schoenborn: [01:00:20] No, Sean Dustin: [01:00:20] absolutely. Yeah. Precursor. So anyways, Sacramento, why we, why we left Sacramento? I ended up hooking up with a stripper. I got her pregnant. Um, I was hanging out with some rough dudes, uh, from the city. Um, I was hanging out with a lot of guys that were, uh, I don't know if you've ever heard of area 51 productions. I was a rape company out here. Yeah. They were, uh, uh, bringing in shit from Amsterdam and, you know, rolling heavy in, in the, in the ecstasy game. And, uh, I was just like, I had gotten into some funk with this dude and he was, he was crazy. It was a black dude. And it was my homeboy, cause my homeboy rich is, uh, uh, one of his friends. And, uh. We, we had gotten to some fuck man, and it was one of those things where if. If we cross paths again, somebody wasn't gonna walk away. Yeah. And so I, I kind of, I kind of, cause the dude was a lot like he was, he was a lot, he was a lot more strict than I was, let's say that, you know what I mean? He was kind of, he's kind of rough and I was a little scared of him. Um, and so I was like, well, you know what? This would be a good time to leave. This isn't a good time to leave Sacramento. Uh, and so I'm like. You know, my check's already stripping cause I'm with a stripper, right? I'm like, well shit, you got about what. You know, at least five months that you could still work. Correct. Right. So let's go to Vegas. You can go work at one of those strip clubs there, you know, that'd be great for you. You know what I mean? Cause I'm not worried about where I'm going to work. I'm just, we need to know where you're going to go because you got to pay for me. There he is again. You know that guy. That's always an angle into it to make sure that he's taken care of right. So many ways. We moved to Vegas. Uh, had my daughter. Um, things are okay. We're whatever I'm drinking. No, none of the hardcore fucking. And then my homeboy, my homeboy moves up there and, uh, with his, uh, check his stripper, right? So he moves up there and, uh, I had moved him out at one point, uh, from like when she went into Vegas to work, you know, when we were living in SAC, I had moved him and all of his shit out of her house once. Right? And he ended up getting back together with her, and then they moved up there. I ended up hooking up with him and, uh. Yeah. Do we, we just started partying together and hanging out, and then I moved. I moved him out of there into my house. So the same thing. She went to Vegas again and fucking, when she came back, all his shit was gone and he was living with me now and Vegas and me and him just, we're going to strip clubs and just doing all kinds of shit. Fucking doing drugs, whatever, party

In part 1 of this 2-part interview, Sean shares his wild story that begins with getting expelled from elementary school and ends with going to prison.

In part 1 of this 2-part interview, Sean shares his wild story that begins with getting expelled from elementary school and ends with going to prison.

LostXpat Host Bert Diggs has been to over 50 countries.He dives deep into cultures, getting to know local customs, local cuisine, the people, and their drink. He is also the host of LostXpat, a YouTube channel dedicated to travel with tens of thousands of followers.  Show NotesFollow Bert on InstagramLostXpat YouTube ChannelTheme music by: Ruel Morales Audio Transcript Brian Schoenborn: Hello. Hello. Hey, everybody. Our guests today has been to over 50 countries. He’s dive deep into cultures, getting to know local culture, local cuisine, the people, and their drink is also the host of lost ex-pat, a YouTube channel dedicated to travel. He’s got tens of thousands of followers. We’re here to talk a little bit about that, uh, as well as a little bit about what’s going on with coronavirus.[00:00:26] Give it up for my friend Bert Diggs.[00:00:28] My name is Brian Schoenborn. I’m an explorer of people, places, and culture. In my travels, spending over 20 countries across four continents, I’ve had the pleasure of engaging in authentic conversations with amazingly interesting people. These are their stories, on location and unfiltered. Presented by 8B Media, this is Half the City.[00:00:56] First of all, let’s get that day drink, and then you gotta get a beer in while we’re having this, uh, corona lock down time.[00:01:04] Bert Diggs: It’s crazy, man. It’s makes sense that everybody’s talking about, it’s the only thing that anybody can talk about. But I think like, you know, it’s nice to get a little bit of a break and kind of talk about other things too.[00:01:14] Brian Schoenborn: Right. You know, like, so just, you know, so for the listeners at home, you know, I’m, I’m in LA. Uh, Burt’s currently in San Diego, although we met each other, uh, back in Beijing, oddly enough, during our times there. How did we meet? I’m just trying to, I’m just trying to remember that cause I remember it was a pretty funny story.[00:01:33] Bert Diggs: But, uh, the way we met was we were both sitting. I was sitting behind you on that. I was sitting behind you on the train in Beijing, going to the airport. We were both heading to the airport. Airport express. I was talking to this girl that was sitting next to me a pair of way that like, I was just kind of chatting and rough, you know, hitting on her and they kind of way then Chinese, you were, you were kind of like looking at me like, how’s he doing?[00:02:00] He’s going, he’s going good. And then after the girl got off the train, we started talking about how we like living in Beijing and how easy it is to make friends and you know, talk to girls. And it’s just. Good experience over there.[00:02:17] Brian Schoenborn: I remember that like, cause I was sitting there just kind of minding my own business.[00:02:21] I don’t remember where I was going. I was going somewhere, but uh, doesn’t matter. But, uh, I was sitting there minding my own business and I saw this girl being talked to and I saw her responding and stuff. I heard like. Western Chinese, right? Like non native Chinese speakers saying like how, and stuff like that.[00:02:38] I’m like, ah, this guy.[00:02:41] Bert Diggs: I was telling her, well, you have a boyfriend, you’re hateful. And that’s how I always talk to the girls, you know? And that’s how it works, man. You know? I mean, Chinese people are very, uh. At least in my experience. Like you said, they’re very, it’s very easy to make friends. You know, they’re very warm. Uh, they like to work hard, but they like to party too.[00:03:04] Brian Schoenborn: They’re very appreciative if you come and enjoy their culture and their country, and if you even make like the slightest attempt to try trying to learn their language, it goes like miles.[00:03:15] Bert Diggs: It really helps a lot when you’re meeting the local Chinese. If you can speak even. You know, a bit of Chinese, you know, 30 different sentences very fluently and understand 60 sentences or 80 sentences or just even.[00:03:31] 200, 300 words. It’s good. It’s all helpful when you live in China. Yep. That’s for sure. Absolutely. And just, you know, I kind of segwayed really quickly away from the Corona virus and don’t we, we’ll get back to that. I know, I know. Bird’s got some stuff he wants to talk about. Hell yeah, that’s what I’m talking about right there.[00:03:49] Brian Schoenborn: Cheers, man. Oh yeah. Just casual beers. Um, but, you know, we’ll get back to some of that coronavirus stuff as well because, um, you know, Bert’s got a pretty unique perspective on it. Um, based on his experiences. Um, but I want to kind of cover some of those things first, right? Like, you know, uh, tell me about like, how long were you in China?[00:04:07] I mean, I’m on the other places, like, I want to talk about some of these other spots too, but like how long were you in China? And like, what was, you know, what were you doing there? What was your overall experience?[00:04:16] Bert Diggs: So, right when I got into China, it was January 14th, and coronavirus was still just kind of an up and coming topic four.[00:04:26] Woah. And we knew that we’ll handle a couple hundred cases, possibly. And they didn’t know. No one knew exactly how bad it was until 22nd or 21st, I think it was 23rd they locked up one. Mmm. And. Close it down. They didn’t close the flights like exiting Mohan going to other countries, but they locked the country up just to contain the virus.[00:04:49] They didn’t know that it was so bad at the time and like how many people were really infected. It’s, it’s such a big delay. So they, they did probably didn’t know at that time that there was a 14 day lag on everyone who got infected and how big the situation really was in the end. It was, it was really a shock to everybody.[00:05:10] I was in Portugal on January 5th and first heard about this virus, this pneumonia. And that’s why I decided to buy a couple of masks from, be shocked in Portugal, like maybe 50 masks or 25 masks. I just bought them randomly and just to keep them. And then later on they came in really handy after this all came out, you know, cause there was no masks in Beijing.[00:05:39] You could not buy a mask that was a proper surgical mask. Or in 95 you would have to spend a lot more money, like four times the amount. Geez, well, I mean, but even just the concept of getting a mask, when, when you start hearing about things happening, I mean, that comes from time spent in China, right? Like, they’re very, like, at least, you know, at the time that I was there, people are very conscious, you know, whether it’s because of the pollution, the smog, right.[00:06:04] Or whether it’s, you know, if they have a cold or something, like they’ll wear a mask to prevent other people from catching whatever they have. Um, and, and, you know, you spend a couple of years there, like you and I both have, um. You kind of become, I don’t say I ever got used to it because I hate wearing masks.[00:06:20] I like, it drives me crazy. Um, but I’ll do it when it’s necessary, but even just knowing that that’s kind of, you know, having spent that much time there where, you know, you get used to that culture of people wearing things when you know, when whatever is not perfect. Um, it’s probably an easier decision or more natural decision even to make, like when you’re sitting there in Portugal and you’re first hearing about those.[00:06:43] Yeah. Because you know, you’re getting on a flight for 15 hours to get back to China or go to a United States. Um, I mean, no, that you’re going to be exposing yourself to more viruses. So, I mean, I didn’t actually wear the mask on the flight from Portugal to United States. But from the United States to Beijing, I did actually wear a mask for part of the flight cause I was just a little bit, you know, worried, paranoid, whatever you want to call it.[00:07:11] In the end it was, it was for good, for the better. For every one’s better. Yeah. I think I did. I did actually have a little bit of a sore throat when I was leaving. America to go to China. I had like a little sore throat, so I was wearing a mask. People were wearing masks actually on that flight cause they did hear about this ammonia and Woolwine.[00:07:33] And so that was the 14th of January. So you were, you were in China on January 14th how long were you there before you. Before you came back to the States? Oh, I was in China until February 6th but I didn’t come back to the States on that flight. I went to Malaysia for about 20 days, and then I was in Indonesia for almost a month, so I was outside of China because I just wanted to get out of turn.[00:08:02] I didn’t know how bad I was going to get by February 6th when I was leaving. Already. You could only go to very select countries like Italy. You could go to Malaysia, Thailand. You could not go directly to Singapore. You’d have to wait in Thailand, if you want to go to Indonesia or Australia, like these two countries decided they need people out of China for 14 days before they’ll accept them into Australia or Indonesia or Singapore.[00:08:31] So you had a self quarantine even that earlier. Uh, yeah, kind of self quarantine. It wasn’t a mandatory quarantine. It was a, according to you, the I decided to do with myself because I don’t want to be one of the people spreading this virus. Very careful. I just wanted to quarantine myself a bit. I still went out, but I wore a mask if I went out and.[00:08:53] I stayed away from people like at least 10 feet away. I typically stayed. Uh, there was some little roads in Malaysia where you really couldn’t stay 10 feet away, but I did my best to wear a mask and waited 10 days until I took off the mask. Any time I was outside, I want to get back to Malaysia and Indonesia because I love those countries.[00:09:12] But I’m curious first, like, uh. You know, you were in Beijing for what, like three weeks it sounds like. What was the overall, uh, like feeling or vibe while you were there during that time? The feeling. Was like a ghost city, like apocalypse, just kind of like it is now in America. It was really interesting to go out and kind of film.[00:09:38] I was also very careful when I went out and Beijing was not a hard hit city at all. Only a couple of hundred cases at that time. There was like 24 cases in Beijing. When I first started filming. By the time I was leaving Beijing, there was uh, around 200 cases. So it grew really fast. Because the people from Mohan left for aging and other provinces around, and.[00:10:01] Luckily they didn’t go to Beijing that much. They mostly went to Hong Jo Fujin and also they went to like Shanghai area, just like more nearby cities. Right. So for those that don’t know Chinese geography, um, Beijing to Shanghai is roughly the same distance of like, I want to say San Francisco to San Diego.[00:10:24] No, it’s, it’s, uh, there’s a further five hours, five hours on a bullet train. So, um, I mean, it’s like a three hour flight, three hour flight. I mean, it could be, it could be like Boston to like Orlando. It’s almost like that, but not quite, it’s kind of like that. Maybe Boston to Virginia. Okay. Yeah, that’s, that’s pretty much close enough, I think.[00:10:54] Anyways, it’s fair. It’s a fair distance. And those other cities, like Uber is, it’s fairly close to Shanghai. It’s not, uh, it’s much further away than Beijing is anyways. And then Fujian is near the, near the sea. Uh, basically the city that, um, is on the sea with the streets of Taiwan, with Taiwan on the other side.[00:11:14] Um, and then Hong Jo is, uh, next to Shanghai. Anyways. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, uh, very close to Shanghai. And then you’ve also got Sue Jo, very close to Shanghai. All of Amway is pretty close to Shanghai. Uh, that’s really famous for the yellow mountain and whey province. And then, um, I don’t know, there’s just a lot of different places.[00:11:38] Shanghai is actually a better place geographically because you’ve got a lot of interesting places around it. Beijing is great. It’s an amazing city, but there’s not many places to go. If you’re looking to go venture out to other cities and explore and see other places, honestly, like Beijing, there’s hub a and there’s Shannon young, and these places are really dry, cold, really not places you would love to go to travel to.[00:12:07] Well, yeah, all around Shanghai. You got really beautiful places to go. Like hung Jo, Sue Jo. So Joe is supposed to be the Venice of China and how Joe is like this beautiful Lake, and like everyone goes there for vacation and then yeah, Juan Shawn is the mountains. You’ve got that only a couple hours away from Shanghai.[00:12:27] So. But yeah, you do have really beautiful places around Beijing and high row and some other places that have got some cool mountains, but just not as much. It’s definitely different. But also like, I mean, I would even say like, at least for me, a possible reason why they might be traveling to those other cities more is cause it’s closer.[00:12:46] You know? It’s also got the natural beauty and you know, Chinese people love getting outside. So I, you know, I’m in LA, right? One of the most populous cities in the country, if not the most populous. Um, I don’t know my numbers, but you know, it’s notoriously bad with traffic. Yeah. Right now, traffic is starting to pick up a little bit.[00:13:05] I think it’s starting to tick up, but for like the last month or so, it’s been. So listeners, if you’ve never been to LA, I’ve never heard about it. Heard about the traffic situation, like people measure distance and time in LA versus miles, because like, it could take you an hour or more to go five to 10 miles, right?[00:13:27] Depending on the traffic. But these days, you know, going five to 10 miles could take, you know, 1520 minutes. Like it’s, it’s not stewed. The roads are so empty. Even though there’s been a bit of an uptick, and that’s really the way it should be because otherwise, I mean, this virus can spread so many different ways, and even when you’re on a bicycle, someone breathing really heavily driving right past you with a bicycle.[00:13:54] If they’re not wearing a mask that. That breath of air, not even a cough, just a breath. It gave me air and blow in your direction and actually infect you, and maybe it will be a small inoculation, but it we’ll still infect you. It could be a really good thing to get inoculated with a very small part of this virus if you get a big inoculation.[00:14:17] A lot of people say that. That’s the people that go to the ER and have to get the breathing tubes in there in their throats, and the ventilators and the PPD machines and all this stuff that you need to do all this stuff. So the best thing, I mean, I’m not saying get infected, but it’s good to get a smaller infection.[00:14:36] That’s why if you wear a mask, you can get a smaller inoculation into you. And if they’re wearing a mask, it’s also a smaller inoculation into you. So if everyone is wearing a mask. Everyone is giving each other less dose of this virus, and if not even just eliminated the virus completely. So that’s why I think everybody should have been wearing masks many months ago, or even just a facial protection head thing, even though it may not be a CDC certified mask and 95, uh, whatever surgical mask, even just a cloth.[00:15:11] A towel napkin. The best napkins they say are the blue napkins that are, they used to dry cars a lot of the time that you heard about this, the blue napkins inside of your. Mask, like this is the best way to protect your, like it blocks a lot of that air. The virus particles, the breathing particles. So yeah, there, there is actual studies been done on the best materials that we can actually get access to right now.[00:15:39] That blue fiber, what they wash cars with, it’s kind of a cloth called, I’m going to look it up real quick. It’s disposable. I’m from Michigan originally. Dude, it’s a big car state, so I know, I know what you’re talking about. Blue cloth or cars. What the fuck is it? It’s just as 50 pack blue shop towels. So shop towels.[00:15:57] Yeah. Shop blue towels. Look at this one right here, Scott. Shop towels. Exactly. That’s, that’s exactly what they say. It’s a 200 pack right there too. So that’s a 200 rent, 200 shop towels in a, in a box. You can just lie in that in front of a T shirt or something. Right. Or your mask, however you make your mask.[00:16:17] I mean, everyone’s going to make their mask differently, but if you put that and the area that’s like right next to your face, you are blocking a lot of the particles, very similar to a surgical mask. And the closer we can get to having that kind of surgical mask protection or. And 95 protection without that little tiny ventilator.[00:16:36] The little plastic thing that lets the air out. That’s actually not what you want for this because it doesn’t protect the people around you. You don’t want that little plastic thing. They kind of a little bit ventilator. You don’t want that one. There’s an 90 fives without that little plastic thing on the outside.[00:16:52] Well the United, so I’ve been doing some research on this as well cause I, you know, I know some. Mass manufacturers and different parts of the world. So I’m trying to do my part, it’s not that easy. You know, it’s kind of a shit show right now as far as all that’s concerned. Um, but, uh, I have learned quite a bit about mass over the last couple of weeks because of that.[00:17:10] And from what I understanding the end 95 just basically means that 95% of particles that are in the air that you would inhale are blocked. So you’re only getting 5% of whatever that is. So, you know, whether that’s a mask with a ventilator or without a ventilator. Um, it’s still the same amount of blockage.[00:17:31] I don’t know if it’s called a ventilator. It’s just that little plastic thing that, um, or maybe it’s not a, maybe you’re right. Maybe it’s not a ventilator, but it’s, I know what you’re talking about is that plastic piece where it’s like it lets you breath easier. Yeah. We use those things in Beijing when the smog is really bad because you know, you want to breathe.[00:17:51] In a little bit easier, but you also breathe out easier too with that little plastic thing there. And so for smog and pollution, that is the perfect mask. So that’s what we were using in Beijing. Whenever it got to be. Very high PM 2.5 if it was super high and it makes it so like you breathe out easier, you can breathe out the particles that are coming from your mouth, your lungs.[00:18:16] But unfortunately, that’s exactly what we don’t want. Right? Because then if you’re infectious or you’re contagious, then it doesn’t stop that spread. Yeah, and that’s the whole point. We just want to cut this thing down and make the. The are not, which is the transmission level. So this one has gotten or not one person is infected and it affects two to three people on average.[00:18:41] No matter what we do, and if we really bring this down, we can bring that are not down to below one, which will make this virus go extinct, but it’s going to be very hard for that considering this virus is a airborne virus that all you have to do is breathe in a room for a certain amount of time and you’re going to infect anyone that walks in that room.[00:19:02] Well, it’s crazy how much information is coming about coming out about it. You know, like at first they were like, don’t worry, at least the U S government at first was like, don’t worry basket’s it’s not going to help. Then they changed their fucking mind and then the saying, Oh, it’s, you know, three feet of distance now, six feet.[00:19:17] And I read something the other day that said, it can spread on the sole of your shoes up to 13 feet. Like it’s fucking crazy, dude. Like nobody knows what’s going on with this right now. The only thing we can do is. You know, try to be safe, you know, keep ourselves inside. And if we have to leave, you know, make sure you’re wearing a mask and gloves and sanitizing and all that other shit.[00:19:37] Yeah, definitely. Wash your groceries. I mean, depending on if you think they could have been touched multiple times by multiple people. I see lots of people touching the things inside without buying them. I mean, it’s, it’s just habits that we do. Yeah. We have to try to learn to break. It sucks, man. I miss human touch.[00:19:59] I want to hug. I want a hug more than like anything else, right? I’m just like, come close. No, I want a real skin on skin contact. I had a dream last night that I kissed a girl. That was my dream. I was like, Oh my God, it’s crazy. I’m like, man, I missed that. You really don’t know what you got until it’s gone.[00:20:25] Right. The feeling is touch and you know, you could just, how’s that feeling of you don’t care about. Hugs and cuddles. Yeah, you can be hard. You can be hard all you want, dude, but you know, you’re just taking it for granted. You know, you get it. You just like, man, maybe it’s going to, some dudes are like, Oh, I’m so hard.[00:20:42] No, don’t touch me. No. Get the fuck outta here, man. You know, when you can’t be touched, that’s when you want to be touched. It doesn’t take a fucking hard ass man to fucking turn that shit. I’m a hard man. I was a fucking 50 caliber machine gunning Marine active duty, and I just want to fucking hug, man. I want a hug.[00:21:03] No, I know. I know what you feel right now. Things that we go through, like when we’re with the significant other, at the time. And you know, we’ve had too much of them and too much of that amazing special time with them, and then go for a one month without them or whatever. Then you’ve got literally, you could go for anything.[00:21:26] Like you’re just so desperate for affection, thirsty. I was hanging out. I was, um. You know? So I’m, I’m also, I’m managing a Chipotle right now in Beverly Hills. It’s of my side hustle, keep my finances stable while I work on my other stuff. And this old lady came in and actually the the, so first of all, it’s super fucking slow.[00:21:47] We’ve lost like. 60 to 75% of our business. Um, but secondly, like the people that are coming in the last few days, I’ve been so like, they just don’t want to leave. They just want to have a conversation. You know? I think there’s like, I think there’s like 67 year old lady who was like flirting with me and she’s just like, she’s just like, don’t you think this is all over blown?[00:22:09] I’m like, no. I’m like. We’ve got to, we’ve got to take care of people. We’ve got to stay in. We’ve got to keep the distance still. Everything that she goes, I am almost 70 years old. She’s like, I don’t care if this thing kills me. I’m like, you fucking, you’re gonna have like 30 more years of life. Are you kidding me?[00:22:23] Like, come on, especially in this day and age, like you can’t really live to be 120 if you’re 50 right now, you might live to be 120 they might come out with some machines that can just rejuvenate yourselves. You never know. So. The thing is, you know, I don’t think the people like. Elon Musk or bill Gates, they’re not going to die early.[00:22:44] They’re going to be 120 hundred and 30 if not, they’re going to be a mortal dude. They’re going to live forever. They’re going to find a way to like put their brain into like some sort of like robot contraption, like the teenage mutant Ninja turtles live forever progressive on the finding of helping them live for a longer time.[00:23:07] I mean, maybe not bill Gates, but I think they’ll get. He might want to live forever. I mean, he’s got enough money. Why not just one person? He his mind, he’s so smart. I mean, he’s a literal genius, but the fact that he was able to predict the pandemic and talk about it in details back in 2015 and talking about how.[00:23:32] Everything would happen, how we are not prepared and how it would be a coronavirus from a animal. You didn’t say bat, but he said everything else was pretty much directly correct and that this could have been from a bat or a. Pig or I guess a one of those are middle pangolin or whatever. It’s maybe, maybe, I don’t know, man, like I don’t want to, I don’t want to conspiracy theorize too much, but like from what I’m kind of gathering, like just my hunch based on the information that I’ve read over the last couple of months, it doesn’t feel so much like it was a wet market thing.[00:24:15] It feels more like, you know, and those virus, the CDCs and , the, the virus  virus lab or whatever it’s called, and they’re both fairly close to each other and they’re both, you know, a hundred, 200 yards away, something like that from the wet market that they blamed it on. Yep. I wouldn’t be surprised. I’m not saying it’s a manmade thing, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they were researching Corona viruses and bats and somehow it got out, you know, like, like accidental or on purpose.[00:24:48] Like I’m not, you know, I’m not trying to, I’m not playing that game. Like I’m not going to sit here and think like, China did this on purpose to fucking like. Bring the world to its knees and like take over. I’m also a saying that, you know, if it was an accident, they sure as hell are taken advantage. You know?[00:25:08] I mean, that’s, that’s just my impression. I mean, you know, they, they suppressed information like they always do. Uh, and now suddenly they’re, you know, they’re trying to be the heroes and you know, maybe. Change the world, order that kind of stuff, and send people to other countries to help out with this whole pandemic, which is good.[00:25:26] That’s a nice thing of them to do, but it’s good. I think, yeah. I wish that we did take it more seriously back in the early times of January, and I guess it’s just, it was really unforeseeable that it would come to this and how it, it could be 14 days dormant in your body and spread and get so infectious and so contagious with the people that you come in contact with.[00:25:50] Even though you have no symptoms, it still is going to be giving you all the people around you presence. They don’t want. It’s the gift that keeps on giving. Three weeks ago, if you told me, Hey, Robert, I got a present for you, Corona man. Be like, yeah, maybe I’m going to get a 12 pack of curls. I know. It’s definitely not a good present.[00:26:17] Again,[00:26:21] I sit there, you know, I just think like, I remember in like December, I’m going, all right. 2020 is going to be the year we’ve got a 2020 vision. This shit’s going to be, this is the year everything’s going to fucking rock. Everything’s going to fucking change. Here we are over a quarter of the way in and the entire year has been fucked and just like.[00:26:49] I hear, I hear this thing goes away by April. Yeah. All better. By April we got 15 and we’re going to be down by zero. By next week, it’s going to be zero by next week. It’s gonna be magical. It’s gonna be as if this never happened. Yeah, right. Dude, LA, I dunno. I dunno. San Diego is, but LA is like, Oh, I guess California in general is shut down until may 15 for sure.[00:27:16] But I do. I’ll tell you what, based on, did you hear the governors, um, the press conference the other day? It’s talking about the criteria to reopen. Yes. In saying that we have to wear a mask. If you work in the restaurant, you got to wear a mask and maybe a face shield and gloves, whole new procedures. Like we’re not opening up in the way that we think we’re opening up.[00:27:37] We’re going to be in a bio containment center everywhere. It’s going to be a safety zone. Yeah. Um, but like, what we should be doing, how he’s doing it is the safe way and the safe way is the best way. When it comes to this virus, we might even have to close off the border to our friends in Nevada and Oregon and whoever else is not taking this thing seriously right now because we’re in Ohio.[00:28:02] Those guys are writing and in Michigan too, like I’m from Michigan, dude, I watched these guys just the other day. They did this whole fucking riot in their cars, and then they all get out of their fucking cars and real estate capital. Like, what better way? What better way to fucking kill yourselves protesting assholes like Jesus Christ?[00:28:22] You know? It’s like, it’s almost like now’s the time for survival of the fittest. This is the Darwin awards right now. This is how we’re going to avoid idiocrasy from happening. Idiocracy to beat. All the dumb asses are going to die from protesting, and it’s not funny, but it’s not what will happen to the irony.[00:28:42] What will happen is actually their grandparents will die, not them. They’re going to be okay because their immune system’s fine. They’re going to be spreading this thing with their parents and their grandparents and whoever else is got a little bit autoimmune disease. So. What they’re doing is really not fair to anyone.[00:28:59] It’s not them who’s going to die. If I get chronic tomorrow, I’m probably not going to die considering I’m drinking a smoothie every day with like, yeah, I don’t know, kale, blueberries, lemon peel, lemons, just so much good stuff in there, and then I’m taking my zing, taking my , taking my vitamin C. These things are the Corona killers.[00:29:19] I mean, people. Or talking about like, you know, Corona cures. There’s no cure on a Corona cure. There’s only making your immune system very high and very Mmm alert, right? To make sure that you’re always going to be killing that Corona. If you end up getting that Corona, at least you’re not going to be getting it in your lungs.[00:29:38] You’re going to get B. Cutting it off at its source. So yeah, the more zinc you got, the more vitamin D three, the more vitamin C, uh, you get  B3 comes for free. It comes from the sun, so sit in the sun. Sunbathe for 15 minutes in LA. If you’re in Washington like Washington, the state, it’s a bit more cloudy. So maybe you’ve got to sit out there for 30 or 40 minutes.[00:30:03] Well L is a bit difficult too though, cause it’s a densely populated city. It’s a, you know, it’s a concrete jungle. The beaches are closed. So the only place, the only people that have the luxury of sitting out in the sun is, you know, if you have like a rooftop in your apartment building or if you’ve got a yard.[00:30:18] Right? Yeah. Um, but there’s a lot of people, I mean, I have a yard, I guess, but there’s a lot of people out there that don’t, and you know, they can’t exactly lay on the sidewalk. I mean, I guess they could, but. You know, then you’re exposing yourself to other people, like walking around you or whatever, you know, like it’s not ideal.[00:30:35] Yeah, you’re right. LA is definitely not the best place for this, but it’s a lot better than New York city for sure. For sure. If you have a back porch, you’re pretty rich, so that’s good. I mean, there’s, if you have a balcony in New York city. I mean, you’ve pretty much got millions of dollars, I’m guessing, because it’s not cheap to get like a massive balcony.[00:30:54] And I have a nice size apartment. I think in New York people are like typically sitting in their living rooms and they have a small window. That’s the typical New York apartment. Yeah, no, I know. I lived in New York for like three years and yeah, real estate comes at a premium. If you have a nice balcony, like a decent balcony, you would actually want to sit out.[00:31:14] And hang out on and look at the sun and emphasize even shining on you. That’s good too. But like, yeah, that’s, it’s going to be costing you like four thousand five thousand seven thousand dollars per month if not 10,000 I don’t know. Like it’s a lot. If you got the room, just one room in that apartment, that’s probably quite a few thousand dollars I don’t know.[00:31:35] Right. I just, I mean, I just think about my time in New York. I mean. I was there when I feel like I was a trained for this for my time in New York because I was there when hurricane Sandy hit. So, uh, where I was, I was actually in Hoboken. So just outside of Manhattan on the Jersey side, and we, you know, we lost power.[00:31:55] For like two weeks, I think. Something like that. Uh, everything was shut down. Um, red cross was outside my building. National guard was in town. Uh, people were people. People were, um, taking an inflatable boats. And like paddling down the streets because it was so flooded. And even that was dangerous because you don’t know if there’s like a down power line or whatever.[00:32:20] Right? So like most of us were stuck. We were confined to our homes for like two weeks. Um, I thought that was shitty, you know, and, and we didn’t have power. Right? So like, here, like, this is like, you know, the whole world, it’s been months, right? At least we have power. At least we have the ability to, you know, talk to each other from Las, San Diego or.[00:32:41] Or other parts of the world or wherever your families and friends may be from, you know, we have that ability to see each other, but I mean, just imagine if like, it feels like a global hurricane, right? Where power was knocked out all over the globe, you know, for like a mother fucking crazy. It’s really crazy.[00:33:01] And the fact is that when we go out. And we get Corona virus, we may need some medical attention and we end up overwhelming our hospitals. And that is what really kills a lot of people because people need the hospital, not just for Corona, but for other normal procedures. And people can’t get their normal procedures done.[00:33:23] And that is also what’s killing people. People need their x-rays to make sure their cancer is not getting bigger, but they can’t go to the hospitals now because Corona is best, the hospitals. So when people are saying, yeah, we’re going to have church on Sunday and we’re going to be having a blast with everybody in need, people need to have.[00:33:44] The Jesus Christ during this time around, everyone’s going to be depressed and it’s not going to be good. Okay. No, I mean, we need to all stay home and not go to our Baptist church in Louisiana or Florida or Ohio apparently. I mean, these places are all having their church service, worship God, and that’s really good, but we cannot be doing this at this time.[00:34:07] It’s just such backwards thinking. People are dying, not just from Rona virus. It’s from cancer. Somebody died in my family today because they couldn’t go to the hospital. They were more scared to go to the hospital and get coronavirus then to go to the hospital to get themselves fixed up. And someone died this morning in my family, my aunt died because she told me last week, I can’t go to the hospital right now because if I go, I’m going to get Corona and I’m going to, in fact, the whole family.[00:34:37] My grandma died a week ago at 98, man, and she, um. Her kids were allowed to see her finally. Mmm. After they had to like Pat, they had to get tested and all that other shit. Um, and then like the funeral, like nobody was allowed to go to it, the gathering of 10. So it was just basically her children and theirs and their spouses.[00:34:58] So like me and all of, she’s got like 25 plus grandkids. And even more great grandkids. She was 98, you know, and like none of us, none of us could even go to the funeral. Did you see it coming from months or is it something that happened? No, it wasn’t Corona related. She’s old. She’s 98. She’s had dementia for like five to 10 years.[00:35:21] Um, she’s lived in an assisted living home for like the last three years. So, you know, we, we knew it was calming, but then apparently like what had happened was she. I think she got pneumonia and then, but the doctors are like, no, we don’t think it’s Corona. Maybe it is. Maybe, you know, it’s, I’m like, what the fuck it was?[00:35:42] Maybe it wasn’t right. Like regardless, because of the, um, you know, the small gatherings order or whatever, like there couldn’t be any more than 10 people there. And so it was her kids and her and their spouses. Um, so it happened kind of fast, but it’s just, it’s just crazy for me to think like, you know, all of these people, not only the 30,000 people, what is it?[00:36:00] What’s the number? Right now, I think it’s like 33,000 or something. 30 something thousand people that died from Kroger virus. So over 30,000 deaths so far. I mean, if, if my, like if my grandma, for example, there’s, there’s other people that are dying for other reasons as well, and you can’t have your last moments.[00:36:20] No. Like it’s fucking crazy, dude. I think that last moments are overrated. I think that the best moments are weeks before your last moments, and me talking to my aunt last week is a lot better than talking to her. Right on her last moments, talking to her last week, it was like I wasn’t even expecting her to pass away.[00:36:41] I didn’t know she was. It’s going to be so sick now. It was just one week ago. I talked to her and she was fine. She was just talking about how they’re not going out there being really careful. They’re cleaning the groceries. Uh, my, my cousin is in charge of the grocery shopping and cleaning them and making sure nothing, it’s getting inside the house, but the fact is Pennsylvania is affected so much with the coronavirus.[00:37:08] I think they’ve got more numbers now than California and Pennsylvania is a. Smaller state. It’s a big state, but it’s a smaller state than California. So, um, she’s in Pennsylvania right now, and that is why she did not go get her normal routine doctor to check her up and make sure that she’s fine because of coronavirus.[00:37:30] I mean, that’s the real reason. We are like ending lives early. Because of coronavirus and that just goes back to that lady that I was talking to at the store. She said, Oh, I’m almost 70 it’s okay if it kills me. I’m like, not okay. People are sudden this and that. Well, that too. Of course. Yeah. Anyways, stay safe.[00:37:55] People. I want to talk about something else. Let’s talk about something nice. We’ve been talking and we’ve been hammering hard, pretty hard on the Corona virus stuff. Um, I want to talk about some, some lighter stuff. I want to talk about some good memories. Like I want to talk more about the travels. Like I want to share some travel stories, man.[00:38:11] Like, yeah. So how long were you in China? Like in total, cause you were there for awhile. Yeah. I’ve been living in Beijing for almost 10 years. It’s coming up on 10 years now, so yeah, it’s actually a full on nine years, but yet almost coming up on 10 years, and I really love Beijing as a city and coming there.[00:38:35] For vacation is also really fun. That’s how I originally fell in love with the place, because you know, going out clubbing, you know, you never know how your night is going to end. It’s the most exciting thing to go out and you just. Don’t know what will happen when you expect it to be home by 11 or 10 30 at night.[00:38:54] You’re like, yeah, this is a quiet night. I got to work tomorrow, seven in the morning, got to teach some classes, ABCD for the little babies or something. When I first came to China, this is what I was doing. But um, yeah, you just decide you’re going to be. Going out for a couple of drinks with your coworkers and then you ended up, you know, it’s seven in the morning and you are still out, and you’re like, well, now I gotta go to work.[00:39:19] I know like I was there for less than four. I was about three and a half. But, uh, you know, when I, when I went to China, I’d never been there. I’d never been to Beijing. There’ve been anywhere in China. My Asia experience was limited to Japan at that time. So I didn’t know what to expect. I didn’t speak the language.[00:39:34] I didn’t know anybody. I just, I went because I was going to try to find my path, right? Find my passion or purpose or whatever. But one of the things that I found amazing was. The Chinese put such an importance on Guangxi, which is, you know, it’s a Chinese term that basically means relationships, right? And like that’s how they do business.[00:39:52] That’s how you like go places in the world, move up, whatever. A lot of building that she is sitting around a plastic table and shares outside of a restaurant. Eating a shitload of food, uh, drinking beer, you know, smoking everybody else’s cigarettes. Cause you know, they’ve all got regional cigarettes. Um, that’s the reason I started back smoking.[00:40:15] Actually. I didn’t smoke for nine years until I went to China. Um, now that’s a habit I gotta kick again. Um, but you gotta play with them, right? You gotta, you gotta play, you know, and you’re eating and drinking for hours, smoking cigarettes. Eventually the bite geo comes out, the Chinese rice wine, especially at those weddings.[00:40:31] You know, you got Joe with those grandmas that want to drink with you at the weddings. Like if it’s an old grandma, of course you’re going to drink with the old grandma. Like she only drinks every year, and she’s having a great day to that day, and you’re going to. Tell her you’re not going to drink with her.[00:40:48] So yeah, you have to drink the by Joe. I’ve never actually been to a Chinese wedding in China. How is that when you first get to the wedding, everyone is a little bit awkward and not really feeling really that like friendly. And then right about after everyone does like the first three toasts, they start warming up to you and as the only Y, the only foreigner there at the wedding, you’re getting asked to drink with everyone.[00:41:19] When I say everyone, I mean everyone’s, and you’ve got to tell them, Oh, shall eat yen nigga by Jack. Hi, she do Ty Gola. Alcohol is too high portion. I need to get less. Yeah. Like basically give me a small shot because alcohol is too high and I’m going to get super drunk. Yeah. And then those grandmas are saying, no.[00:41:43] Gone Bay and like full glass and drink it all. That’s what the grandmas are doing to you and you’re just like, Oh no, this is, this is not good. How many shots of by Joe? 8% alcohol. You’re feeling pretty ripped. You have it by Joe Berks. Come on. Right about. Now I want to describe by geo first, like, let me, so before we get into the Baidu of birds, let me describe what by geo looks, smells and tastes like.[00:42:13] Okay, so you can get by. GBG is the number one selling alcoholic drink in the world because it’s the drink of choice. It’s like a national drink of China, you know, purely by mass. Everyone drinks it at 1.6 billion people drink it. Yeah. You can get bottles of Baiji from his cheapest $2 to like thousands of dollars.[00:42:33] Right. Exactly. The, the cheaper stuff, but it all looks like water vodka when it’s clear. Right. Uh, the cheaper stuff smells like paint thinner, and I think it might even taste like paint thinner too, now that I think about it, like it says. It’s rough. It’s rough. So there’s a pineapple flavored by Joe that’s a little bit more easy to drink.[00:42:59] It still tastes horrible, but the pineapple one, you know what I’m talking about, right? It’s a pineapple flavored by Joe. Actually. It masks the taste a little bit. Yeah. That one is only around 35 to 40% alcohol, which is a lot more doable than the. Arigato by Joe Wood, which is the North Chinese stuff by Joe.[00:43:20] The Argo is like, that’s the real stuff that puts it hair on your chest, and it’s literally like. Rocket fuel. Once you save it automatically just makes your throat hurt and you know, you already feel your liver working really hard after just one sip of that stuff. The next day, you just kind of, if you can remember what happened that night, you’ll realize, yeah.[00:43:47] Yeah. That’s a big help though. Yeah. You’ll realize you don’t want to drink by Joe again for real until the next time they push you into doing it. Normally you’re not going to get pushed into drinking crappy by Joe. You’re going to get pushed into drinking the like. $50 range of by Joe, maybe 30 40 $50 range, so that’s a bit easier.[00:44:14] It’s a bit easier on the lungs and the stomach and the taste buds for sure. The biter that you’re talking about though, is the one that you get from the supermarket called . This is the bio that kills people’s liver a lot faster than the other by Joe that they say is. Better. But yeah, they’re all pretty bad for you.[00:44:32] I mean, directly translated means two fish head. Take everyone. It is, right? Yeah. No. So the best bio that you can get is in the Southern province. Made it like a, like a special old factory or whatever it’s, it’s called. Um. Oh, what’s it called? Mmm. Oh, sorry. There’s  and then there’s the, uh, again, no, I know. I know what you’re talking about.[00:45:04] I just can’t think of what it is right now. It’s, uh, uh, uh, shit. What the fuck is it? Hold on. I’ve drank it so many times. I know. We do. It’s, um, hold on. I’ll look it up. I can remember. I’m looking it up. I’m going to pay it. Uh, the really good brand of by Joe, which everybody drinks. It’s made in great Joe, I think.[00:45:31] No, no, it’s high. It’s called . I’m out of time. So Mount Tai by Joe is the one that they make you drink at the weddings typically, and there’s a very expensive Mount side by Joe, and then there’s the cheaper one, and normally you’re drinking the middle range wine that’s like $50 or $60 a bottle like Mount height can cost.[00:45:53] Around $1,000 if you get like a vintage bottle of now, Ty, or even a lot more than that. Um, I don’t know if you recall, but I, I produced a English premier league soccer event, uh, Manchester United versus Liverpool down in Melbourne. Then after that happened, I was working on putting on another event just like that in, um, Kwaito, which is right next to Shinjin.[00:46:19] Uh, next to Hong Kong. Like that area? No, clay with an H Joe. Yeah. Kwaito is like right next to Shenzhen. It’s kind of a suburb of Shenzhen. Anyways, uh, I went down to visit this guy, this, this investor guy, like four different times, and he, he owns like a bunch of different hotels and a bunch of businesses and shit.[00:46:42] Cheers. Cheers. Boom. Uh. And every time we went down there, he treated us to lunch in one of his hotels. So we had free Chinese food, but he also kept busting out this type of bio geo. It came in a box, you’d open the box, and I was a, it was a ceramic bottle with a seal that you had to crack. You had to like crack the seal to prove that it’s real shit.[00:47:11] And it’s not like bathtub bide, you know? But that’s high quality shit though. You know what I’m saying? Like you gotta crack the fucking ceramic seal on the top and then you can open it. Yeah, you gotta you gotta make sure that’s real. Because in China they got little fake alcohol everywhere. Man. Blind.[00:47:32] It’s like India and China both produce a lot of fake alcohol. Beer can be faked and it, Oh dude, die dude, beer. I can’t even, I’ve heard so much about Yanjing is like the bud light of China basically. Um. But, okay, so Yanjing maybe is like the Bush lighters. It’s like, it’s not that great, but it’s, it’s all over the place.[00:47:56] It’s cheap. Like you get these big, like one liter bottles basically. And I heard that there’s so much, um, counterfeit Yanjing that nobody even knows. The retailers don’t even know what’s real and what’s not. So like there’ve been times that multiple times where I’d buy two bottles of Yanjing. Right? Take a sip of one and I take a sip of the other one, one after the other, and it seems completely different.[00:48:22] Yeah, fucking nuts, dude. But like they just don’t produce the beer very well. Like it could be 3.3% to higher. That’s what they say on the bottle. Like, so for Chinese alcohol, they don’t measure the amount of alcohol. I think they just row. The stuff in there into the batch and the main, whatever you get is what you get.[00:48:45] You know, sometimes you can get a really good Yanjing and Qingdao and then another beer could be so bad and really awful tastes. He cannot even drink even to subsidize because it’s just so nasty. Yeah, but chin chin dies a little bit more consistent though, because the Qingdao beer comes from the city of Qingdao, which was once a German.[00:49:06] Uh, I don’t know if it was a German port or there, there was some German control there sometimes. So Qingdao down actually plays and acts a lot more like a German city than it does a Chinese city. Yeah. Qingdao is really nice city to visit in China and very touristy, and they do have some tourists are touristy architecture.[00:49:28] Some of it is fake and some of it actually is real. Like the church, I guess is real. Apparently that is like from the early 19 hundreds it was around doing like the boxer rebellion kind of era. So actually Ching dollars made all throughout China. It’s not just made in Qingdao. They make it all around, so it’s not right.[00:49:47] So it could be faked and it could also be made for real. It doesn’t matter. Like which beer. It’s better to drink the local beer when you’re in China because you know it’s more likely to be. Really made there cause it’s cheaper if it’s locally produced. They don’t have to import it. Like a lot of fake beers are a Qingdao actually.[00:50:06] Cause Qingdao is a more desired brand. So if in fact he’s going to make a beer, they’re going to make Qingdao. Oh, you’re actually worse off getting the Chine doubt. If you were in a city. It’s in like, um. No shit and John or a city that’s in inner Mongolia or dong Bay like, Hey, long Chong and these places, you’re a lot better off getting the local beer over the Qingdao beer because chin dock could be made by the factory cause[00:50:35] Brand that they really like to tap the lies on these, these fake beer makers and the beer could be fine. You can drink fake beer and you’d be fine, but you know, one out of a hundred batches or one out of a thousand batches are going to be the beer that has got a little bit too much formaldehyde that ends up killing some people.[00:50:55] And you know, there’s been foreigners that have gone to these countryside places in China. That drink the, and they just have the worst hangover after drinking five or $16. It’s even the same as being in a place like Beijing. Like you’d go to the like, so there’s huge clubs in Beijing, right? And they’re all right around the soccer stadium.[00:51:15] They’re all like right. Literally right around the soccer stadium. And they offer free alcohol, free liquor to, to foreigners. And nine times out of 10 it’s fake shit. And you wake up with the worst hangover ever. Uh, that’s not a good idea to get the alcohol from them. You can get one free booze free for a reason.[00:51:35] Yeah, you could, you could get one or two drinks, but you will feel it in the morning. But don’t be drinking that one all night. You will feel it for two or three days. So like I would say that, yeah, two drinks from the free place. It could be okay if you’re just drinking the rum, the Bacardi is. Maybe not fake.[00:51:54] It’s what somebody promoters have said, like the party said, maybe not. We don’t know if it’s fake. If the Procardia is fake, that’s okay. It’s made with the sugar and it’s not the same as whiskey where they gotta like get that concoction made just right. The chemicals or Cardi is just, you know, sugar and it’s rough.[00:52:17] I mean, rum is just a lot more easy to make. And not mess up then having fake whiskey, and I can understand they want to make their fake whiskey, but no, actually there’s one club I went to that has got a really good blueberry flavored whiskey. That is one that doesn’t give me a hangover and it’s free. So there’s a club called, Mmm.[00:52:43] Oh wait, what’s it called? Oh, okay. Um, it’s been a while since I’ve been there. Elements goatee, don’t teach. Shimmer. So go to your West gate. And that’s where most of the clubs aren’t as something like elements. It’s circle. Uh, it’s not circle. It’s next to circle though. It’s the newest one. Like, I guess that one.[00:53:07] You probably have been there before. I went away for two years though, dude. So, I mean, it’s been around for two years. It’s been there for two years. Anyways, sorry that I can’t remember the name, but, uh, no worries. Uh, it’s the same place that live used to be, you know, the, it’s called life. I think they remodeled it and turn it into a new place.[00:53:29] And so live was the biggest club in Beijing for that short amount of time. You know, it’s just like, who has the biggest club is the best live bar. Live bar was massive, and now that they reopened it again, we branded it. I guess a new owner or something and yeah, they, uh, call it something else, and that is the place where foreigners can actually get a free drink and have a whiskey that’s blueberry flavored whiskey.[00:53:57] It’s a bottle that’s made, I think in Taiwan or China. It’s a Chinese whiskey or Taiwanese whiskey. It’s really good though. Uh, anyways, it’s a really off topic thing. It’s pretty silly to talk about a blueberry whiskey in one club in Beijing. But that’s okay. Mark it right there. Exactly. But I mean, if you can see, if you can get 1% of the population in China, you’re fucking made.[00:54:18] Right? Like that’s what people always say, but no. So, so we went off on this little tangent, but I’m sitting here thinking like, the whole, like, the whole thing about that was like, this guy, uh, treated us to, you know, lunch and Baiji or they had a crack with a ceramic, like a little off the top of ceramic and had to crack it with a hammer kind of thing.[00:54:37] And he would go around from person to person. Like we had a table of like, you know, the big round table, right? With the lazy Susan kind of thing in the middle, like we so often see in China, right? So you can move the food around. There’s probably like 10 people at the table and he’s just going from person to person to person, just like shot anybody.[00:54:55] Like before we do the shot, he would say a little something nice. Oh, I’m so glad you’re here. You know you’re a vital part of this thing, blah, blah, blah. Shot. Alright, next person. Oh, I’m so glad you’re here. You’re part of this thing, but shot, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Then he makes his rounds and then the next bird, like the person who was right starts making his rounds and then the person after that makes their rounds and then it’s just a whole fucking circle.[00:55:20] So like, you know, you get. Every single person is just getting fucked, you know? And it’s, and it’s, it’s one of those things that I’ve experienced in China at least. I mean, I’m sure you feel the same way. Maybe not, but like in China, in America, it’s like if you’re the guy that gets too drunk, you’re that guy, right?[00:55:40] Yeah. Nobody wants to be in China. If you get really fucking drunk, that’s like a badge of honor. Yeah.[00:55:52] No, but they respect you for it. They respect you for it. They want to keep you around. They can trust you more when you get drunk with them and like hang and not give away cigarettes, like to be the whorehouse and get to go do their things that though her house and everyone’s going to keep their secrets even though.[00:56:11] Everyone’s got a family at home. It’s, it’s kind of a trustworthy thing. It’s just in general, this is a lot of Asian culture, like Japanese and Chinese and Thai and whatever, Korean and whatever. I mean, I even think of it like this, like growing up, I’ve got two brothers, right? Growing up. If, if me and my brothers did something naughty or bad together, then we had that on each other and stuff.[00:56:36] One of them would try to tell him the other one. Oh, well, I can do this too, or I can do that. You know, like, fuck up. Don’t say a word because I can do, I can tell you about that. You remember that time? It’s kind of like that, I think, you know exactly. Like, I got one finger pointing at you, but three fingers are funny right back at me and we’re all fine cause we’re all going to be in trouble.[00:57:04] If you give away any secrets, I can trust them. When they got secrets from them, you got dirt on each other, you know, you can move forward. Exactly. Um, I want to talk a little bit about, um. Some of these. I love Southeast Asia. I want to just talk about that dude. I’ve been looking like the last week I’ve been looking at like cost of living in places cause I’m just like, once this shit all blows over, I’m just going to fucking move to a fucking Island and Southeast Asia.[00:57:34] But you know, something like looking at different spots or whatever, but like, you know, you’ve been at, you’ve spent significant time in Southeast Asia. Yeah. You’ve made some videos about like me and Mar and Malaysia and other places, Vietnam, I’m sure. Um, I’m just kind of interested in like, you know, where, where have you been?[00:57:53] And like, tell me your kind of impressions of each of these places because this is, it’s fantasy time since we can’t go anywhere.[00:58:02] Yeah. I mean, so to break it down, you’ve got Southeast Asia, which is probably one of the most diverse places in the world for having like so much cool, great food that’s original. That’s unique. Um, the epicenter is Thailand. Like Bangkok is the melting pot of Thailand. So yeah, Bangkok is great for the food.[00:58:24] And then you got Cambodia, which is also a cool place to go, at least quite a few years ago. It was a really awesome place to go. It’s changed a lot. So I can’t say that it still is. Amazing experience that it used to be. Well, yeah, Vietnam is still amazing. It’s probably the second best food in all of Southeast Asia.[00:58:45] Just like amazing, absolute gourmet French food and Asian food mixed together in a melting pot. So don’t get me started on Southeast Asia. I really love getting you started on Southeast Asia. Let me ask you about Cambodia. I’ve been to Cambodia. Okay. I spent, since you went there five, five, five years ago now, five years ago, I spent eight days in Cambodia.[00:59:12] I love Cambodia. Five years ago. Well, let me, well, let me tell you, I, um, I spent four days in SIEM reap where Angkor is anchor watt, whatever, all the time. Yeah. Anchor Watson. That’s about as much time as you want to spend in SIEM reap. I started running out of shit to do. Yeah. It’s got some fun like bars and stuff.[00:59:30] Some pub. Yeah. Bar street. Yeah, sure. Um, I’ve got plenty more to talk about when I put out my story, which I’m working on, um, about that stuff. But like non Penn, the capital city, that was, I spent four days there as well. And that was a completely different experience for me. Man. It’s a little bit dangerous there, but like if you just watch it back, kind of like, Oh, you’re going to be fine.[00:59:54] Well, like that, the minute I fucking landed, dude, like I was taking a took, took from the airport to my hostel and, uh, I just felt like everybody was looking at me like, they’re either three, they’re hungry or they’re plotting something. Yeah. And sure enough, my phone got jacked and nom pen. I, you know, I’d already been through Southeast Asia for like two months and then a non pan of all places.[01:00:21] My phone got jacked. Yeah, no, it’s definitely like the South America of Southeast Asia. It’s a little bit wild West over there. I don’t know. Another place that’s got so much stuff going on as far as crime goes. Out of all of. Southeast Asia. I mean, there’s some pockets in the Philippines that could be not so good, honestly.[01:00:47] And even Vietnam could be bad in some areas. Cities. And Thailand too. And you know, everyone’s got some pockets, but you know, but Kim, Cambodia, Cambodia is a unique though. And here’s why. Like if you understand the history of Cambodia, right? Like the late seventies or the Kemiah Rouge, when POL pot took over and said were declaring this year zero and they committed genocide on their own, people, you know, killing, they were killing everyone that was educated.[01:01:14] Plus their parents, you know, their grand parents, grandparents, whatever, plus their children and all that shit. Um. So to quote poll pod, it was something like completely killing the tree from branch to root, right? They eliminated an entire multiple generations of educated people, you know, so like I feel for Cambodia, I love scenery.[01:01:40] I want to go back to Cambodia and hope that it’s getting better and that they have been getting a lot better over the last five, 10 years, from my understanding. Um, but there’s a whole generation from like 79 to like. The late nineties basically that it was a country of just uneducated people. And so when you, I mean, when you have some of that, sometimes the crime can be a little bit higher because people are struggling for food.[01:02:04] They’re struggling for their way of life. You know, they’re, they’re struggling too. They’re struggling. Everyone’s struggling. The entire country is struggling together. And this communistic a utopia. Facts are the facts right. I was just going to talk about these days, Cambodia is changing and it’s not in a good way.[01:02:25] So you, it is. Okay. You know, SIEM reap is almost the same as it always was. It’s got more Chinese tourists, which is really good. I like Chinese tourists bring a lot of cash and a lot

Bert Diggs has been to over 50 countries. He dives deep into cultures, getting to know local customs, local cuisine, the people, and their drink. He is also the host of LostXpat, a YouTube channel dedicated to travel with tens of thousands of followers.

Bert Diggs has been to over 50 countries. He dives deep into cultures, getting to know local customs, local cuisine, the people, and their drink. He is also the host of LostXpat, a YouTube channel dedicated to travel with tens of thousands of followers.

Bhavit Sheth is a co-founder and COO of one of the world's newest unicorns, Dream11.com. This India-based tech startup, valued at over a billion dollars, has cornered the Indian market on fantasy sports, beginning with cricket's Indian Premier League and has grown to include the NBA, NFL, EPL, La Liga, NHL, and many more to become India's biggest fantasy sports platform. We're talking all of the plus the effect of COVID-19 on sports. Show Notes Follow Bhavit on LinkedIn Dream11.com Theme music by: Ruel Morales Audio Transcript Brian Schoenborn 0:01 Hello, Hello Hey everybody. Our guest today is calling in from the other side of the world. We're all staying at home and joining us quarantine COVID-19 Coronavirus. He's calling in from Bombay, India. He's actually one of the co founders, one of the two co founders of one of the world's newest unicorns. So tech startup valued at over a billion dollars. Based in India, he's got a pretty cool story behind that. And we've got some similar roots as well. So before, before we get into it, give it up my friend Bob sharp. My name is Brian Shin born. I'm an explorer people, places and culture. In my travels spanning over 20 countries across four continents, I've had the pleasure of engaging and authentic conversations with amazingly interesting people. These are their stories on location and unfiltered presented by 8B Media. This is have to see. Brian Schoenborn 1:09 What's up, man. How you doing? I see you holding up over there. Bhavit Sheth 1:13 Hey, thanks, Ben for that intro. Yeah, it's a tough time. It's your time but holding up well, Brian Schoenborn 1:20 it's crazy, right? I mean, I just I just, you know, I feel like I remember the beginning of the year when think when I started coming from China, I just you know, okay, who knows what it's gonna be, but we knew it was gonna start spreading. But it feels like like it didn't really hit at least in America until about a month ago. Like that's when it really started taking off. And it went from like, life as usual to like every day as an eternity. Like a bit of lockdown for like a year. How's it going over there, man? What's going on in India with it? Bhavit Sheth 1:54 Yes, it is if it has affected a lot, but I was actually supposed to be in China. In January, I'll ruin Yeah. All all bookings on everything. And then, you know, my brother being a doctor obviously had some early information on the entire Coronavirus situation and something that was developing in China. So he told me that it's best not to go there. It's best to avoid going to China. Brian Schoenborn 2:22 So you're in Florida before they shut the country down then. Bhavit Sheth 2:25 Yes. And, and the best part about it is the person they're supposed to meet in China. You know, I told him that Listen, you know, there's this situation which is developing and it's best avoid doing this meeting now. And the person was like, yeah, by that logic, I should never be coming to India. Brian Schoenborn 2:46 You just don't know. Bhavit Sheth 2:50 But obviously, he didn't. Well, obviously at that time, he didn't know that it's this bad. Boy, there's a there's a point 01 percent chance that something may happen right. But they came into 100% chance very soon. Brian Schoenborn 3:02 Well, I mean, that's you know, it's debatable, right. I mean, I don't want to get into the politics. I'm excited want China to get mad at me because I love that country. But uh, I can tell you those numbers are probably debatable at best. They have a tendency of capping things off at a certain level, but Yeah, dude, it's crazy that you caught that you were able to change that before, man like you. I mean, you could have you could have been a high risk man. Yes, like that's crazy dude. Bhavit Sheth 3:30 So I could have been the person who started the Coronavirus spread in India. You could have been Brian Schoenborn 3:37 patient number, you can be patient. Bhavit Sheth 3:42 That's great. But that didn't happen. Luckily, you know, my brother told me say this cancel that trip. And But currently, India is in complete lockdown. The state that I am in actually has the maximum number of cases Yeah. And so, but the government is doing a great job is trying to contain over it right now. In fact, if they find a positive case anywhere, they'll immediately make that and containment zone and the entire one kilometer stretch around it would be sanitized and no one is allowed to get out from the Yes, they just make sure that the essentials are available to the people in the containment zone. So they've gone real hard on the lockdown. Obviously, the thought process for them is that human lives and more important, economic can be revived. Obviously, economy has taken a big hit. And we won't know the full impact of that till you know, a few months. Brian Schoenborn 4:54 Yeah, it's gonna be a while for sure. But it's I mean, I think about like, You know, like I went, I went to India actually visited you in an ad for a while. A couple years ago, I sit there and I think like how, like, if India were doing we're trying to take the same measures that America was taking. India would be done, be done for this because there's so many people everywhere, right? There's just I mean, everywhere you go, there's people on the streets and just living life or selling products Bhavit Sheth 5:24 on cities very high. Mm hmm. Yeah. So if this was to spread very fast, you know, containment would be very difficult. Brian Schoenborn 5:34 Yeah, I'd say that's probably why we're seeing things with like, and in the US, like, New York, New York State has more cases has more cases than any other country in the world right now. Right. Right. Because Manhattan's so densely populated right Manhattan's Queens Brooklyn that you know, the five boroughs. They're getting devastated over there. Meanwhile, over in California, where I'm at, you know, the our governor instituted a lockdown stay at home order. lockdown for everyone except for non essential people, you know, your food workers, restaurants, deliveries, your transportation kind of stuff. And people have been kind of adhering to it. So we're not seeing nearly as much of a spike over here as we are in New York. Who knows? I mean, that could change. It could change. That's early. But I think the big thing right now is that everybody's staying at home staying in place, just writing it out as much as it sucks. I mean, drive is driving me crazy. It's driving me crazy. I think, like today I had a god I just I'm like, I feel like I'm on vacation. Like I'm eating nothing but junk food. might ask for like hours. I'm working but I'm sitting on my ass for hours. And I'm gonna come out of this thing like 50 pounds of yours. Bhavit Sheth 6:47 And I know we'll talk about this later, as well, but there's no sports going on anywhere. So even when you're sitting at home, you don't know what to watch except for movies on netflix. Brian Schoenborn 6:59 Right? Right. Have you seen the tiger King? Live not Oh, dude, do crazy. It's crazy. I don't know if it's available on Netflix in India yet but like, it's a documentary about like basically like, stupid white people shit. Like white redneck people these three different three different people that all own competing Tigers use America but it's like that's just where it starts and it gets so much crazier dude like shout out to Netflix and Tiger Can you check that shit out? Dude, it's good. I like a five part series or so. Speaking of sports, though, obviously sports are shut down everywhere. All the major sports here are postponed indefinitely baseball, football, basketball, hockey, soccer, you know all that stuff. And I know that based on what you do, it affects you quite a bit as well. So maybe you could first talk about what you what you and your company does. A dream 11 and and then talk about kind of how it being affected by this whole thing? Bhavit Sheth 8:02 Sure. So dreamland is a daily fantasy sports company. fantasy sports is basically a concept where you can get to be a selector. You can choose your own team from specific match for which we are playing for. And, you know, the players that you believe would perform the best on that day would make it to your team. And the way they perform in the real life match would give you points in your fantasy team. And at the end of the day, whichever team has the most points with accumulative of all the players is at the top of the leaderboard admins. So So yeah, that's a quick, very quick brief fantasy sports. So that would be something Brian Schoenborn 8:52 like fantasy football or fantasy baseball where like fantasy football is the big one in America where you know, people get together they draft their teams. See how about a player you know the individual players do. The Bhavit Sheth 9:04 only difference is that we do it per match. So, obviously the biggest one for us is cricket. We got a billion YouTube fans in India but apart from cricket we do multiple sports like football with your soccer. Yeah. And then there's basketball we do. We do hockey, field hockey volleyball. So there are a bunch of sports that we do. But cricket being the biggest of them Brian Schoenborn 9:33 so cricket huge in India. It's huge a lot of Bhavit Sheth 9:35 like cricket basically Brian Schoenborn 9:36 big and like all of the old UK countries, right. I think America might have left a little too soon in our own sport and said screw cricket playing baseball. Like that. I don't know. I just like I like to be honest, like I've been to I've been to the overland Melbourne, where they play their cricket matches. Not during a game I was just there before a game I don't really know anything about cricket. All I know is like when we were in grad school, so we went to grad school together listeners, that's how I know Bob it. But I remember when we were, we put together an extracurricular softball team. Right. And I remember like, I played baseball growing up, you know, the whole glove bat and all that thing with the softballs a certain size. And I remember, I remember, I think, Bob, it's in the outfield, whoever it was that bat hit the ball, and it like, flew to the outfield. And I remember him trying to catch it with his bare hands. And I'm like, Baba, what are you doing? Like, why are you catching bear heads? Do you like use the glove? So I know there's some I know some similar stuff there. But like what's, you know, just high level like, can you tell the American audience as well as you know, just kind of reiterate with people that are familiar with it high level what's going on with cricket? Bhavit Sheth 10:50 Yep. So thinking First of all, there's only two hitters and one pitcher instead of four hitters that you can have on four bases. in baseball, and after every six pitches the pitcher changes. So that that's a very high level of how the structure is. But the pitcher has to obviously throw to the batsman. So batsman is what we call the hitter in cricket. And the pitcher is called a bowler. So the bowler has to throw the ball towards the batsman. And it's not exactly similar to baseball but the ball actually has to hit the pitch before it reaches the batsman. That's where you get maximum. The bowler could get maximum I would say purchase out of the pitch that is being played on in cricket. And once the batsman hits the ball, he doesn't need to necessarily run it's not compulsory to them, he can decide whether you want to Run or not. And there are three different formats of the game. The longest format is a five day format runs across five days it has the day. Brian Schoenborn 12:14 People go to those like they sit there for eight hours a day for five days like fans Bhavit Sheth 12:20 earlier in the day used to do it a lot. Now, with the new formats coming in the viewership is dropped drastically, almost a game for the purists now. And then we have one that 300 pitches for team that is a single day game and that lasts for eight hours again. And then the there's a shorter format, which is a three and a half hour format, where they're only 120 pitches for so the hundred years. Now the different variations that have been coming in the 60 pitches, the 100 pitches, But the the three major formats is the three and a half hour format data format and the five day format. Brian Schoenborn 13:05 It's interesting to me how the length of the game is decided based on number of pitches versus like in baseball like number of outs, number of innings, right? Bhavit Sheth 13:17 So so it's a combination. Obviously, we have a number of outs as well every team gets 10 outs. After 10 outs, you're done, whatever you score is the target for the other team to chase down. And so but the number of pitches is the outer limit. So once you hit those many number of pitches and you don't get everyone out, the target is set for the other team after those many number of pitches. So and on average, you know, if you the scoring is very different from baseball, right in baseball, if you get a few runs up to 10 runs, it'll be great Yeah, this is going yeah. And in cricket in a 300 pitch game, for a single side, the average score would be somewhere around 275 to 325. Okay, Brian Schoenborn 14:15 yeah. Pretty crazy. Bhavit Sheth 14:16 That's crazy, right? So the so the equivalent of a home run in baseball is six runs in triplicate. in baseball, you actually have to have all the four bases loaded when you hit the home run to get four runs. Right, right. Yeah. As soon as you hit a home run, it's the next six runs. Okay? Yeah, Brian Schoenborn 14:34 cuz in baseball, it's like you got to go all the way around all you got to touch off four bases to score, right? Yeah, okay. You do you do fantasy sports dream. 11. All right. You've mentioned you touch on all of these different sports. But I think you started with the cricket stuff. Is that right? Yes, sir. Can you can you kind of maybe go through like, what it was like to start this? I mean, I think you were from my understanding you were you In your partner, we're kind of working remotely as well. Right? So, Bhavit Sheth 15:04 yeah, let me take you quickly through the journey. Sure. So, Dream alone is 12 years old now. We started in 2008. Actually, we started working on it in 2007. We launched it in 2008. Me and my co founder Hersh, both of us have been playing fantasy football for over 20 years now. 2000 2001 is when we started playing fantasy sports. And that was for soccer, the English Premier League. So after we got done with schooling, you know, harsh went to UK to do his high school. And that's why he got introduced to fantasy sports for the English Premier League because obviously, it's the most popular sport in UK where you're studying. And he introduced us to fantasy, EPL as well. And It was a good way to for all of us to stay in touch right after school. A bunch of us were studying in India, some of our friends had gone to UK or us to study. And this was a thread that ties us all together. So every weekend, we would have banter. You know, you there will be a conversation topic about who's played well who's not. It. It, I would say increase the engagement in the game drastically. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think before I've been falling football for around five years before I started playing fantasy sports. And after I started playing fantasy football I used to almost watch a game every weekend, if not more. So you know, we we like playing it and we conducted playing with the playing on the fantasy EPL platform and in 2008 was when there was a change happening in the cricket world as well. That's when the entire, you know, band aid, our format was being transitioned to a newer format, which was a three and a half hour format. That was the new format that was coming in, and a lot of excitement around a lot of buzz. You know, it was more of a entertainment platform which was being created. So we wanted to play fantasy cricket for that tournament as well, which are in 2008, called the Indian Premier League is one of the most popular cricket tournaments in the calendar year, usually played in April May got canceled this year, which I'll talk about later. And, you know, we wanted to play and we couldn't find anything to play for fantasy cricket. So it was one of those typical bar conversations right? where you're like, you know, there is nothing out there. We should create one. It's such a good opportunity. And, you know, we all excited about that. And then we just went home and slept over. And that's, you know, there's so many of these ideas that you get when you just talking with friends or drink. Absolutely. Brian Schoenborn 18:21 Hmm. I've had a bajillion ideas, man, and I remember like, probably 90% of them. Bhavit Sheth 18:28 And then, then after a few days, my co founder, he called me and he's like, you know, I've been thinking, and this is something you know, it's really stuck in my head. Why don't we just go ahead and try it out. And, as HR you know, both of us are passionate about sports. Both of us have been playing fantasy sports for a while being for the NBC Sports is engaged in something that should be playing in us at that time. almost halfway. The sports fans were playing fantasy sports. So there definitely seemed to be an opportunity there. And we did a little bit of research, at least in us and, you know, in other countries, there seem to be a lot of traction around fantasy sports. Brian Schoenborn 19:17 Oh, absolutely. I even think like, I mean, you've been playing fantasy sports since 2001. I've been playing since probably at least that long, maybe 9899 you know, around the time when it was just kind of getting going online, right? It really it takes you from a casual fan like oh, you love your team, you know, you're gonna watch just you're just you're, you know, just the Patriots or something like that on Sunday, and then that you're good to suddenly Oh, shit, no, you got to watch every single game because your players are all over the place and you got to play if you don't keep tabs on the players. If you don't watch the games, or at least the highlights or whatever you don't have. You don't have an idea of how well they're actually did. And so then you can't you know, you're going to lose that edge against your your You're buddies, right? So if you last thing you want to do is lose the league. Because then you're gonna get it from everybody until the next year, you know. Bhavit Sheth 20:10 So via actually started off with the same format that at that time fantasy, English Premier League or in us, Yahoo, ESPN, CBS, Fox, all of them had this entire season long format where you create your team at the start of the season. You pick players from all different teams that are playing in that league. And then you can do trades every week. And at the end of the season, you know, whether you won or not basis, you're ranked on the leaderboard. So we decided to do that format at that time. And as part of our research, we went around talking to a bunch of people who who would, I would say the gaming gurus in India, and all of us, all of them told us that it's a terrible idea. And as you know, it's not monetizable there's no education around fantasy sports in the market, you will have to actually tell people what it is people don't understand strategy games. So all kinds of things. And in hindsight, they have actually, right, because the format that we are trying to do the season long game, we are trying to monetize ad for ad revenue, you actually need to have a lot of users on your platform. Otherwise you're you're ad revenue doesn't come in. Let me ask you this. Brian Schoenborn 21:41 Just for some perspective, you said he launched in 2008. Like for me, like my frame of reference. 2008 is like 2008 internet 2008 in America, right? Internet, sports, all that stuff where you know where people are in America with that stuff. Like roughly where was India as far as whether it's Internet speeds infrastructures, maybe like where's the sports scene at like all like where was India at in 2008. Bhavit Sheth 22:08 So in 2008, iPhone was just being launched. In India, I think union us, that was the year when iPhone was being launched. So blackberry that was popular at that time. And in India, apart from Blackberry, Nokia was very popular, but they were not smartphones, right? So, in 2008, if you had to play fantasy sports or anything else, if you're used to, it would either be on your computer, or then if you're playing games on your console, like a PlayStation, or Xbox or Nintendo and internet speeds were so we at that time, 3g was just about picking up in India. But then again, you know, 3g is mobile internet so people could usually play this only on the laptops, computers and we add decent broadband speed. Not The kind of speed we have today, the broadband speed was decent enough to support, you know, gaming, fantasy sports, all those kinds of platforms at that time. In fact, Facebook had I would not say not launched by rivals. Facebook was very, very new. And in that time, the most popular social media platform. I don't know if you heard it or not was output, Brian Schoenborn 23:27 or Kurt? Yes, it I think I heard of that. I think I heard that. I think it was, like Brazil or something. Bhavit Sheth 23:36 Or, I don't know. But eventually, Google bought it down. And as it does with most of the products they buy, they shut it down after some time. Yeah, so so at that time, awkward was more popular than Facebook. So we were in a very different world back then. Yeah, well, so I mean, so I sit there and I think about it, I go okay. Brian Schoenborn 23:56 Today like fantasy sports is amazing. Yes, it's great to do on your computer, but it's really easy just to do it on your phone. Right? So so you know, you're talking starting this starting this company with this ad revenue model, right? And you're restricted first because you've got to, you know, you've got to you got to get traction, you got to get scale. Right. But also you're limited on the time and places people can can get on this. Okay. All right. So I guess yeah, you mean you so you could say those sports commentators or whoever, you know, the sports experts you talked about said it was a terrible idea. Or you're just like lightyears ahead of them. Bhavit Sheth 24:40 You know, for everybody in this in. This seems to be a great idea. This is something that you're passionate about legislate out, you know, you're younger than 23 I think, and I you know, if this works out, great. If it doesn't, you have enough time, either of us to do something thing as I found any kind of scale at that time to make good ad revenue. So so the first three years we actually learn what not to do. We actually figured out a lot of things that we are doing wrong in that interim was when I actually came to Bentley. Because one of the things that me and my co founder both figured out is that being engineers, we didn't have as much business acumen as we should. So we are like, you know, it may be a good idea to go to B school to learn some of something about business as well. And so we took turns, I went to Bentley first, and after I came back a year later, my co founder went to Columbia. Yeah, that's how we split it up. And both of us got a B school degree and some more knowledge on how to run a business. Obviously practical experience centers and And then some of the school experience also helped us with, you know, just understanding of how to run a business. Brian Schoenborn 26:09 So what are some what are some, like early like, I mean, aside from these guys telling you it was a bad idea, like, what are some of the major like, hurdles that you came across? And then like, Oh, that's the first question then after that, like, what is like the big like, you got that first big one? And you're like, yes, this is this is working. Bhavit Sheth 26:27 Right. So I think in the first year itself, we ran through 70% of the money that we are faced with friends and family. Oh, sure. And, and obviously, that was one of the biggest hurdles because you're like, Okay, if we don't have money, how are we going to learn the business? And we you know, in that first one, one and a half years, we realized that okay, this is not the right model to go with. We need to pivot and but you to pivot, it will take us some time because we needed to figure out what model works, then build it out, have a team that builds it out for all that you need money and in earnings earnings and have the funds first year, and we didn't want to go back to family to ask for more money. So So what we decided at that time was that we start a sourcing business, a digital servicing business, which would basically do a bunch of, you know, web development for other companies, managing social media pages, running digital ads, creating games, and stuff like that. And services business inherently obviously has to be profitable, because you would obviously put a markup on every project that you do, of course, and the servicing business slightly lucky in the sense that a first line was actually because of our sports connection was a was a special Team cricket team from IPL calm Mumbai Indians and you know they said that Okay you guys are the digital guys in that sense you have been doing digital for a while we have zero idea on digital. Why don't you help us build a Facebook page and then that's it I'm Facebook has started to gain popularity. Oh, we will make sure you know we will build it out. We will maintain your Facebook we will run ads if you want. And 2008 nine, I think 2010 is when we started this off. There was a time when I don't know whether it was the same case out there. But in your the vanity metric was lights how many lights you have on your Facebook page. So for Mumbai Indians, here we are obviously very early in the Facebook. So when we launched the brand page, we were able to get a million likes within six months for them. Brian Schoenborn 28:56 Nice. Bhavit Sheth 28:58 So you They were very happy with the way we are managing content with the way we are managing engagement on the site. And Adidas was the sponsor of Mumbai Indians. They saw this and they approached us saying that listen, you've been doing a great job for momentum. So why don't you both with us as well? And we donate surely not. And so Brian Schoenborn 29:24 no big deal. I mean, just for some perspective, the Mumbai Indians are there like I mean, they could be to translate that to American sports like, like the what like the Yankees? Bhavit Sheth 29:36 Yeah, so they are right now. As of today, one of the most successful teams in IPL Mumbai Indians and Chennai Super Kings two teams, they have won the IPL the most number of times. Brian Schoenborn 29:53 So you're building webpages you're building Facebook pages for the Yankees of India Premier League cricket All right, and now you've got Adidas. And these are your, like your first two clients basically. Yes, first. Bhavit Sheth 30:08 We got a lucky break out there. And once you have Mumbai, Indians and Adidas as your clients, you can go out and pitch to a lot of other like whoever else you want, Brian Schoenborn 30:17 right? Let's get open so many doors Bhavit Sheth 30:21 because because otherwise if you go as a 2425 year old pitching to, you know, probably 4550 year old marketing guys and no nice companies saying that, you know, I'll run marketing for you. They'll be like go first get a marketing degree and come back. Brian Schoenborn 30:37 Exactly. Bhavit Sheth 30:40 So we got we got a lucky break there. And from there we actually able to scale this up into you know, running across five different cities in India. We no plans, we are running a profitable business, and we are global clients like Pepsi Lufthansa, Discovery Channel. And a bunch of these other people. And, you know, that was kind of feeding the research and the pivoting activities that we are trying to do for Milan as well. So, so that actually worked out for us because, you know, that helped us get over the first big hurdle of running out of cash almost. Brian Schoenborn 31:23 That's some pure resourcefulness man. Bhavit Sheth 31:26 It just it just about adapting and figuring out ways to survive, right? Brian Schoenborn 31:32 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, it's funny like I am, I'm a veteran, right? I'm a military veteran. And one of the big things from my Marine Corps days, is we always talk about, you know, no matter what you're going through, you've got to improvise, adapt and overcome. Like if you got your eyes on the prize and you are on your path or whatever it is, right? until there's absolutely no way of making something happen. Figure it out. Right? Right. To be honest, like, that's a pretty fucking lucky break, you got, you know, like, not everybody. Not everybody has that opportunity. But it's also it's also like getting yourself out there. Right, right. It's working hard towards your goal, but then also being in the right place at the right time. So it's, I'm not gonna discount it and say, Oh, it's just lucky. You know, like, it's one of those things like, like I told you that I, you know, I produced that event between manchester united and Liverpool in Australia a couple years ago. Right, right. I mean, part of that could be like, Oh, yeah, that was luck. Sure. I was in the right place at the right time. Right. But I also had, I also had my skill set, and I experience my education. You know, I was looking to do something big and something awesome and all that shit. And on top of all that, I happen to run into this guy, this friend of mine who was looking for somebody to help out with that sort of thing. Right? So yeah, it's like I just sit there go, Oh, my God. It's crazy. Like it's such dumb luck. Those are your first few clients, but it's not dumb luck. Like it's there's a lot Should that goes in to that sauces before you get that opportunity? Bhavit Sheth 33:04 You know? Yes. In fact, the first thing was the realization that what we are doing was not working out. And yeah, we needed to think about something else. We were being like, Okay, let's try it out for another year. If it doesn't work, we'll shut it down. Bhavit Sheth 33:20 But actually, you know, Bhavit Sheth 33:24 having that perseverance to go through it to be like, No, we are going to figure this out. Yes, first attempt has failed. But maybe there is another model that can work out. fantasy sports is yet a great concept. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's the connect that we have built with this, these teams that again, it helped us when we are there at the right place at the right time. Brian Schoenborn 33:50 So you're able to build out this digital marketing thing, right? Mumbai, Indians, Adidas, so on so forth, Bhavit Sheth 33:59 at what point You guys, I mean, do you still have that digital marketing? Or do you guys still do that? Or if you know, No, you don't. So what happened is, in the meanwhile, obviously, we are looking at ways to pivot. And eventually, we came up with, you know, the daily fantasy sports. Let's try daily fantasy sports for cash. So we are not relying on monetization through ads, b2b monetization will be to cease directly and we will do a pay to play fantasy sports version where if people want to participate, they play and sorry, they pay and if they win, they win cash prizes. So, you know that that was the model that we came up with and while we are pivoting to that, the entire digital servicing weight was feeding the growth. And then, when once we pivoted to this model, we realized that you know, we Between the two of us co founders, it was very difficult to handle two businesses because there was no focus, right? Like the product was the passion, the services I was getting as the money so you would always kind of be biased to the business that was making revenue getting as the money keeping the lights on, but in that then you're just kind of ignoring a little bit the product side that we always wanted to build out. So then once we had a stable, you know, few hundred thousand users on on fantasy sports, and we saw the initial traction to be good. You know, we are seeing that okay, people were getting used to this format and you know, we are getting the numbers that we decided that let's go out and sell off our digital services business and focus on the product business, which our team And that's what we did. We went out, we sold digital services business to another Digital Services Agency. And we pumped back all the money that we got from that sale into dream 11. And that's what then gave us, you know, some money to go advertise, get some more users on board, you know, so we launched this version in, in 2011, December 2011. And by around 2013 2014, we had some pretty good traction. But, you know, at the end of the day, if you're not able to market the product properly, you're not going to get as many users. So then we needed money to start going gung ho and all our marketing, and that's when we decided, Okay, we go out and now try to raise funds. So at the same time that my co founder was in us at Columbia Business School, so He started reaching out to a lot of VCs in India and you so he started reaching out to a bunch of VCs and us. I think he spent more time in Silicon Valley and in New York and we reached out to close to around 150 VCs B's, you know, all any institution that would find out and all hundred and 50 actually known as No. And, you know, there was there was quite a bummer that okay, you know, we've been trying to raise this money and not able to raise it, you know, we'll be at that growth capital and you're obviously at Burning money. So while the money that we got from the sale of the digital services agency was with us, but last only for a certain period of time. So we realized that okay, you know, probably reaching out to be csps B's in us in the probably not the best idea. We started reaching out to people in India as well. That's when we got one after getting probably 150 knows. We got one yes, from VC firm in India. And then we got a series a funding in end of 2014. Brian Schoenborn 38:18 That's crazy to man, like, you know, like, I've also gone out to raise money. I've come close a couple of times. But I've also had to pivot and retool and things like that. But I remember I was raising money for one project for one venture. And I reached out to like 125 VCs or something like that. That's about my breaking point. That was like, where I'm going, ah, I don't know if it's gonna work. I applaud you guys. You know, it's a numbers game, right? It's like, you know, one door closes, another one opens. Keep hitting it. Right Bhavit Sheth 38:54 persistence. Yes, it is. And that's something that we've had. had to have ever since the day we started till today, that's I think an important trait in general. If you want to run a business, obviously, one of the things that we had to be very cognizant about when we started the business and you know that also took us a lot of time when we are pivoting is to figure out that whether this kind of business model is in line with the laws of the country right because it could be very easily construed as a betting kind of business and betting is not allowed in India, similar to how betting are not allowed in us till a few months ago. It's the same concept as it is in the US, where you're allowed to stake money on a game of skill and win cash prizes. And that's not considered like betting Brian Schoenborn 39:50 it's considered a game of skill because yes, because you choose which players you on Bhavit Sheth 39:54 set as good as the role of a selector right. You know, selecting the team for Specific, say for the Yankees, for example, in 2014. And so Jan 2015 is when we got our first round of funding a series A. At that time, we had around 300,000 users on the platform. And since then, you know, we've had five rounds of funding four rounds of funding and one round of secondary transaction now and today we stand at around 80 million users Related Episodes 11| On Growth, Leadership, and Business: Warrior Rising Chief of Staff Ken Vennera 10| On Embracing the Journey: Journalist and 6-time Beijing Boxing Champ Nick Bedard 9| On Being Black, Gay, and Over the Top in America, Norman J. Liverpool IV

Bhavit Sheth is a co-founder and COO of one of the world’s newest unicorns, Dream11.com. This tech startup valued at over a billion dollars, based in India, has cornered the Indian market on fantasy sports, beginning with cricket’s Indian Premier League and has grown to include the NBA, NFL, EPL, La Liga, NHL, and many more to become India’s biggest fantasy sports platform. We're talking all of the plus the effect of COVID-19 on sports.

Bhavit Sheth is a co-founder and COO of one of the world’s newest unicorns, Dream11.com. This tech startup valued at over a billion dollars, based in India, has cornered the Indian market on fantasy sports, beginning with cricket’s Indian Premier League and has grown to include the NBA, NFL, EPL, La Liga, NHL, and many more to become India’s biggest fantasy sports platform. We're talking all of the plus the effect of COVID-19 on sports.

Ken Vennera is a man of many hats.Wharton educated, corporate lawyer, and mentor, he is also involved with Warrior Rising as Chief of Staff — a veteran nonprofit that helps veteran entrepreneurs get off the ground and positioned for success. Show Notes For more: LinkedIn | Warrior Rising | Operation Homefront | Vets2Industry Theme music by: Ruel Morales Audio Transcript Brian Schoenborn 0:01 Hello, hello. Hey everybody. Our guest today is a man of many hats. Wharton educated. He's a lawyer, also involved with Warrior Rising as Chief of Staff, veteran nonprofit that helps veteran entrepreneurs get off the ground and get to where they need to be. Give it up for my friend, Ken Vennera. Brian Schoenborn 0:25 My name is Brian Schoenborn. I'm an explorer of people, places and culture. In my travels, spanning over 20 countries across four continents, I've had the pleasure of engaging in authentic conversations with amazingly interesting people. These are their stories, on location and unfiltered. Presented by 8B Media, this is Half the City. Brian Schoenborn 0:52 So what's up, Ken, how's it going? Ken Vennera 0:54 Much Brian, thanks for having me on the show. Brian Schoenborn 0:56 Yeah, no problem, man. So listeners where we're sitting You're on location in Philadelphia, beautiful Philadelphia Ken Vennera 1:03 City of Brotherly Love. Brian Schoenborn 1:04 That's right. And we are. We're in the peak of the coronavirus madness, but we're not going to talk about it. We're going to give you guys something else to talk about. Ken Vennera 1:14 Thank you. Brian Schoenborn 1:14 Yes. So can tell me a little bit. Um, one of the things I like to do is kind of discuss origin stories a little bit. Ken Vennera 1:22 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 1:22 You know, how people that have been that have seen a lot of success and things like that, how they got to where they, where they got, so maybe you could maybe you could start with like, just a little, maybe a little bit more of an in depth intro than what I provided, what you're up to. And then we can go back and like kind of dig in like how you got from point A to point B? Ken Vennera 1:40 Sure. Sounds good. So I as you mentioned, I have a bachelor's degree from the Wharton School, the University of Pennsylvania, my undergrad, for that. I have a law degree, JD, from Widener University School of Law, which Used to be the Delaware School of Law, and also have a master's degree in law in taxation from Villanova University. Brian Schoenborn 2:07 Oh, wow, okay. Yeah, a lot, a lot of time in class. Ken Vennera 2:10 a lot of time in school for sure, for sure, much too much time as my grandmother would probably. I've been involved in a lot of veteran nonprofit space. You know, we could talk about that a little bit later, if you like, as well. But, you know, currently Chief of Staff with Warrior Rising. A super, super organization that, as you mentioned, you know, helps veterans who are looking to start businesses, you know, and accelerate them. You know, and earn, basically, you know, their future. And you know, a few others as well. I'm involved with Vets2Industry, sit on the foundation board for them, and others that I've been involved with along the way. You know, I can give you a little bit more background about that. I'm on the advisory board of Operation Homefront of Pennsylvania, Delaware, New Jersey, for example, Brian Schoenborn 2:13 What is Operation Homefront? Ken Vennera 2:58 So Operation Homefront was founded probably about 15 years ago, roughly, I want to say, to provide sort of emergency assistance to active duty military while they were deployed in order to keep their families stable and things like that. You know, they've since changed, not change their mission, but morphed their mission a little bit more, you know, they help with, you know, veterans that need housing. They still help with some mergency financial assistance and things like that. I mean, they're nationwide. But they're all about, you know, really maintaining the families for the military, you know, in times of, you know, crisis and things like that. Brian Schoenborn 3:38 Gotcha. Ken Vennera 3:38 They've expanded out a little bit towards, you know, National Guard space and things like that, and some veterans up to a certain point, but, you know, some some great work. Yeah, as I mentioned, I was I was very active many, many years ago with them probably during the height of deployments from about, you know, 2006 to roughly 2010 or so. I was chairman when they had independent chapters did a lot to really grow the Pennsylvania, Delaware, New Jersey chapter into an actual, you know, operating entity from what it was. And, you know, proud to say that it's still successful. I mean, national national organization is nationalized all of the chapters now into basically field offices. But some of the people, you know, some of the key people that I put in place like Pete Stenson, for example, who was chapter president under me, is now a regional director for them. So you know, his territory pretty much covers all the way from Maine down to Maryland. Brian Schoenborn 4:44 Oh, wow, okay. A huge chunk. Ken Vennera 4:46 Yeah. So, you know, so there's that, you know, try and do you know, what I can, I mean, not having served myself. I mean, it's pretty important for me to, you know, help out, you know, the military. There's large military presence in my family as well. And a lot of friends of mine and things and Brian Schoenborn 5:01 yeah, so I mean, I'm a veteran, obviously, and I appreciate everything you've done that you do for us. Just curious. I mean, where does where does all that come from? Like, the desire to? Ken Vennera 5:13 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 5:13 You know? Yeah, so be more respect, you know, be with as involved with the military and vets as you are. Ken Vennera 5:19 Um, you know, I'd say a lot of things. My grandparents were, you know, an immigrant generation, you know, coming from Italy. But, you know, they left Italy because there was not opportunity. I don't mean to sort of sound cliche about it, but that's really, you know, the truth of it. You know, they came to this country, and we're extremely, extremely proud of it. My grandparents themselves, were the sort of oldest of their generation so and they came from very large families. So, the younger members of the family were born here, and were proud to have served in the military. I had a great uncle, my grandmother's brother that, among others, I mean, others of her brothers served in World War Two as well. But her youngest brother just passed away about six months ago now. Yeah, and he was in the Battle of the Bulge and you know, he's 95, 96 years old when he passed away. So, there was a, there was a huge patriotic feeling in the family even though you know, again, they came from, you know, a different background, you know, ethnically, etc. but very, very much in support of, you know, the military in this country, etc. And so, you know, very much loving the country and what, you know what was done. My grandmother, it was very funny, saved my uncle's letters when he would write them from every place. From like, France, from Belgium, from Germany, Brian Schoenborn 5:35 That's cool. Ken Vennera 6:24 Even uncle Yeah, and I still have them to this day because she cherished you know, like every one of those letters that you know, he wrote. I think their last stop To be honest, he And after that being, you know, part of the Battle of the Bulge. Their last stop in Germany was Fürstenfeldbruck, which is right near Dachau concentration camps. So I'm sure that, you know, they're probably involved in liberation, you know, Dachau as well, Brian Schoenborn 7:14 That's amazing. Ken Vennera 7:14 Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Brian Schoenborn 7:16 You ever pull out those letters and like, read them, like, get an idea of like, Ken Vennera 7:19 I've looked at him with friends. You know, it's very funny to see, like that first perspective and know that it's sort of a family member that experienced that, you know, you know, you see things from like that era. And you think, again, you know, it's a little bit cliche, but, you know, there's there's mentions of, you know, we really have Hitler's boys on the run now and things like that. Yeah. And it's just, you know, just crazy to think that they were experiencing that firsthand and relating it, you know, back as best they could, you know, back in those days, there was no internet or things like that. You couldn't even really pick up the telephone call family or anything. So Brian Schoenborn 7:55 It's literally just letters and who knows how long it took a day and some of them on a ship or whatever else, right? Ken Vennera 8:01 And some of them worst are centered, you know, things like that as to what was said, so that you weren't giving away like locations and things like that, while they're removing, I mean, it's pretty, it's pretty cool. I mean, you know, to feel like that part of history and things like that. So, you know, even subsequent to that, I mean, my father's generation, you know, I've uncles that, you know, served in Korea, and then thereafter, you know, mementos that they brought back from, you know, Japan and other places and so forth, you know, from their, from their tours. You know, a lot of friends of mine, served in the military as well. Both, you know, ahead of me and even slightly younger than me, you know, and I just have a great respect for them seeing what you know, they were dealing with while they're in and, you know, the sacrifices that they made, being away from family, crucial times and things like that in places that they didn't necessarily want to be to do what they had to do, you know, so, it bred a lot of respect, you know, for that, but the real sort of impetus to help me, and I'm sorry if I'm talking too much. Brian Schoenborn 9:04 No, no, please. This is for you man. Ken Vennera 9:06 I appreciate that. Brian Schoenborn 9:07 This is for you to talk. Listen, it's all good. Yeah. Ken Vennera 9:10 So I was working in Manhattan when 911 happened. And, you know, to tell you it was, in all honesty, one of the most impactful kind of situations I ever been involved with, I mean, Brian Schoenborn 9:25 How close were you to ground zero? Ken Vennera 9:27 so I wasn't thankfully, you know, at the World Trade Center site or even, you know, close to it in lower Manhattan, but, um, you know, it's still extremely traumatic. I actually was coming in on the train that day. And, you know, the first tower, we were coming up along the Meadowlands you know, areas like you know, in the train pretty much comes up at lower Manhattan right at the tip. So you're facing right at the World Trade Centers and World Trade Center and the first tower at 8:48 was already on fire. You then take a turn And start going up along Manhattan before you turn into the tunnel and Penn Station. Yep. But so you know, we probably hit that point at nine o'clock so as you know, at 9:02 the second tower was hit so we literally saw the second we didn't see the plane itself. But yeah, we saw the second tower explode man. And I can recount to you Brian, in all honesty, every word that was said on that train by everybody around me as to what was going on. Things like that the confusion, the the craziness of not understanding, thinking that it was a rogue plane and a pilot problem and all that kind of stuff all the way to, you know, no, we're at war and things like that. And then getting into a city, you know, one of the largest cities, you know, on the face of the earth and having it completely abandoned. I mean, I don't even want to talk about coronavirus but it's like a lot like that. Ken Vennera 10:56 Apocalytic. You know, scenes of streets that are using Full of, you know, hundreds and thousands of cars like completely devoid of cars and people and all that kind of stuff. And then, you know, just the horror of you know, the towers falling. You know, these are like, they were largest buildings, the tallest buildings in the world at one time. And here they are collapsing with thousands of people that you knew were trapped, you know, just the horror of that and, you know, everything that that came from that us not being able to leave the city. Now that feeling of being told that you can't leave somewhere. I mean, it's not like being in prison, but it's very much a traumatic thing. Brian Schoenborn 10:56 Yeah yeah yeah, mmhmm. Brian Schoenborn 11:37 It's unsettling, for sure, yeah. Ken Vennera 11:38 Like to say, you know, you can't leave you can't go home. You know, it's it's, it's very odd feeling and then, you know, having, you know, fighter jets flying over overhead that you don't know that, you know, you can't see from the ground that they're necessarily US planes, you know, not knowing. Yeah, right. What's going on and? Brian Schoenborn 11:56 It's like Pearl Harbor all over again. Ken Vennera 11:57 Oh, yeah. Like really, I mean, like it was, you know, trauma after trauma like experiences, I mean, there were a Grand Central Station was at the end of 44th Street, which was the street in which my office was you know, there were bomb scare so they would get evacuated and you would see hundreds of people running down 44th Street, which is a very narrow street, two lanes, but, um, you know, to see people running for their lives, man like it's a strange feeling. And then, you know, to cap that off. You know, we were finally able to leave Manhattan that day. And, you know, not until about three o'clock in the afternoon the George Washington Bridge finally opened up. Brian Schoenborn 12:38 Hmm. Ken Vennera 12:38 We it took us about three hours to get from where the parking was all the way up to the George Washington Bridge, which was only about 70 blocks. Brian Schoenborn 12:48 Yeah. Ken Vennera 12:49 But literally just got across the George Washington Bridge and a van had pulled onto the lower deck and they closed it down again. So it was that kind of day where it was like you literally felt like you were trying to escape, you know what was going on and then to see hundreds, hundreds Brian, I'm not even exaggerating, but hundreds of rescue EMT, ambulances parked in the center lanes of the New Jersey Turnpike all the way down almost to lower Manhattan. I mean, it's just the, you know. Brian Schoenborn 13:21 The first responders. Ken Vennera 13:22 Yeah, the first responders from areas that were even further south than Philadelphia have, like my areas that I like to recognize names of, like to realize the kind of response it you know, was drawn by the horrible things that were happening that day. I mean, it was just, it just was a tremendous, you know, and I managed to come back into the city Two days later, you know, 911 was on a Tuesday. That Wednesday, nobody was allowed back in, but that Thursday, I made a journey back just to see what was going on to check in on you know, clients or just to get some handle on the chaos and you Imagine being on a 10 car rail train and you know, the the total number of people on those all 10 cars was probably 20 people you know, and and Brian Schoenborn 13:37 It was a ghost town. Unknown Speaker 14:15 it just totally was crazy and you know, I distinctly remember the car that I was in there were four other people on that car with me and they had photographs of family members that they were going to try and go find now this is two days later, Brian, and all I could think to myself is like oh my god, man. Like it's two days later like you know, if they're in trouble or like they're they're gone right like and but like feeling like in that position of like, if that were me going to try and find loved ones two days later. I mean, like, how horrible would that be? You know what I mean? Like so again, like if just trauma after trauma in terms of in those kinds of things, I mean, Bryant Park and others big gathering, you know, open areas and things like that would have huge pieces of plywood joined together with hundreds of photos on them, like in makeshift memorials like all over the city man, like it was just, it was just crazy. And then, you know, you would go back to like Penn Station and you would see firemen that like days after were covered in soot and stuff like that and just collapsed on the ground pretty much from exhaustion. You know, and seeing National Guardsmen in the station with machine guns and things like that. I mean, it's just not things you're used to, in this country man, and to have all of that happen at one time was, you know, fairly impactful to me. And that, you know, that was Brian Schoenborn 15:41 That changed everything, man. Ken Vennera 15:42 Yeah. And you know, and so that was the genesis for me of like, understanding why a lot of people would want to sign up, you know, after seeing those kinds of things. You know, I was a little bit past probably, maybe the waiver age, you know, even at that time, but still was interested in doing some way to try and help You know, and like I said, and then supporting friends of mine that were in because of it. You know, it just changed my outlook as to how I could play a part, you know, and helping out and things like that. And so, Brian Schoenborn 16:11 You know, I, I was active duty when 911 happened. Ken Vennera 16:15 Yeah? Brian Schoenborn 16:15 Yeah, I was, you know, 50 caliber machine gunner. active in the Marine Corps. I was stationed in Camp Pendleton, so I was in San Diego. Ken Vennera 16:22 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 16:23 I'll never forget, you know, eating morning chow. I was in the chow hall eating breakfast. I'm sitting at this table by myself. I had already had PTSD at this point. So I was in the process of being medically discharged. But I was sitting there by myself. And I looked up, you know, there's these, you know, TV screens, right monitors or whatever, up in the corners. And usually there's like the news or something on, right? And I'm like eating I'm eating an omelet and green pepper onion, and cheese omelet. Ken Vennera 16:54 Nice. Brian Schoenborn 16:55 And I look up and then the computer screen or on the on the TV screen, rather, I see these two buildings that are burning? And I'm like, What the fuck? I'm like this guy just like a commercial, like a movie trailer or some shit like that. Right? Ken Vennera 17:06 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 17:07 And then then the entire chow hall got quiet. And I looked up again and it said, CNN on one corner and live on the other one. Ken Vennera 17:15 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 17:15 The trade. The Trade Towers have been hit. Ken Vennera 17:17 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 17:18 And it was at that point, you know, like I said, everyone got all quiet. Finished my, I finished my omelet. And as I left to go back to my barracks and get ready for formation, I heard this guy just screams just goes, we're going to war. Ken Vennera 17:34 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 17:34 And I was like, you know, like, my patriotism shot through the roof at that point, man. Ken Vennera 17:37 Of course. Brian Schoenborn 17:37 Like, you know, if I wasn't already dealing with my PTSD, I would have been Ken Vennera 17:44 deployed Brian Schoenborn 17:44 more than more than ready, willing and able to be deployed. Ken Vennera 17:47 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 17:47 In fact, you know, my unit was the first to go to Iraq after after 911. Yeah. And they fought in Fallujah, stuff like that. Ken Vennera 17:55 No doubt. Brian Schoenborn 17:55 It really tore me up for a long time actually, afterwards that I couldn't be there for my brother's. Couldn't be able to protect and defend Ken Vennera 18:02 pretty common Brian Schoenborn 18:03 our country and, or retaliate for it. Ken Vennera 18:05 Sure. But you find other ways to do it. I mean, that's sort of, you know, me to a much lesser extent, obviously, in you. I mean, you're already wearing, you know, the cloth of the country that point. But, you know, you try and find other ways. I mean, that's sort of what it's all about, you know, being part of a team, you know, you you make do with what you can do. Brian Schoenborn 18:24 Yep. Ken Vennera 18:24 You know, so. Brian Schoenborn 18:25 So, so that's what led you to doing Ken Vennera 18:28 a lot of military involvement Brian Schoenborn 18:30 philanthropic work and stuff like that Ken Vennera 18:31 Yeah, with that military, you know, direction. Sure. Brian Schoenborn 18:35 Mm hmm. So, you were Ken Vennera what? Corporate lawyer, corporate hack? Ken Vennera 18:40 Corporate lawyer. Not corporate hack. Thanks a lot, Brian. Geez. Corporate lawyer, for sure. Brian Schoenborn 18:47 okay. Sure. Okay. And then you started moving into this doing some of those volunteer or Ken Vennera 18:53 totally on the volunteer side. I mean, anything I was doing even with operational front at that time was all volunteer time. I still working full time. And, you know, taking care of other things. I mean, I'm involved very much in my local community, you know, as well like my HOA and things like that. But yeah, just doing it on the side and, you know, trying to make a difference as much as possible. Brian Schoenborn 19:15 How do you have time for all that? That's my question. Ken Vennera 19:18 I don't sleep much. I don't sleep much. You know, you guys in the military, you probably understand this more so right, is that, you know, sleep asleep enough when I'm dead, right. Brian Schoenborn 19:27 That's what the old gunny says, for sure. Ken Vennera 19:29 That's it. So you know, I kind of living proof of that. So, yeah, I just try and do as much as I can, you know, and I'm pretty efficient when I do things, you know, for sure. When I have the sport to be able to do it. Brian Schoenborn 19:41 But so So tell me a bit about I'm gonna keep talking about this veteran stuff for sure. Tell me a little bit about Warrior Rising. So I know a little bit I've gotten involved with warrior rising about six months ago, roughly. Ken Vennera 19:53 Yep. Brian Schoenborn 19:54 Something like that. That's how we met actually. Ken Vennera 19:55 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 19:56 But for the listeners, maybe you can kind of give a little high level view and then You know, I can talk about our involvement how how we got connected as well. Ken Vennera 20:03 Absolutely. So, Jason van Camp, he was a major in the US Army, he was Green Beret and Ranger. Brian Schoenborn 20:12 Yep. Ken Vennera 20:14 He was, you know, medically retired from the military, but still, you know, fairly young guy and said, you know, look, I have a lot of life ahead of me, got involved in starting a business himself, because that's what a lot of his peers that had gotten out were doing. And quite a few people that were colleagues of his would, you know, want to sort of emulate what he was doing and you know, got the idea of asking you know, him for assistance and he said, Well, you know, maybe it's a good idea to create a an organization or program whereby, or program within an organization, whereby we could help veterans who are looking to start their businesses and support themselves basically, you know, and and reestablish the purpose that existed in the military, reapply that ambition etc that existed there. Restore, you know, sort of that dignity of being, you know, receiving benefit from what you know their own hands and their own work and things like that. So he did you know, he created about five years ago, back in 2015, stood it up, put together a program. At first it was live instruction, but then converted to video instruction, etc. And basically, the program is evolved into a four pillar program that provides instruction, mentorship, funding opportunities, and then last part we're a community, which recognizes the fact that even coming out of the military, one of the things most people miss is that sense of team that existed around the military people. So it's reestablishing that being the local face of you know, Warrior Rising in locations throughout the country. You know, the organization is really, really prospered you know, quite a bit. Thanks to, you know, a lot of what, you know, Jason and the team have put together. They are getting or we're getting approximately, you know, last year, over 1000 applicants. Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 22:13 That's huge. Ken Vennera 22:13 Yeah. And, you know, pretty steady clip of, you know, 20 to 25 applicants every week. Brian Schoenborn 22:18 Wow. Where are they coming from all over the country? Ken Vennera 22:22 All over the country. Yeah, I can tell you probably the top five states. Number one absolutely is Texas. There's a good 13% of all the applicants are coming from Texas. Brian Schoenborn 22:33 It's a big veteran state too. Ken Vennera 22:34 Sure, sure. And and they all follow pretty much that pattern as well. California is second, probably with like close to 9% of all come from California. Florida is probably a close third with about you know, 7% and then of course, you know, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Pennsylvania, New York, believe it or not. You know, but, you know, as of last count, I think we had applicants from all All all but one state I think we had 49 states that we had applicants from. Vermont being the lone holdout of all places. Brian Schoenborn 22:57 Really? Vermont? Ken Vennera 23:07 I know, Vermont, I know you would figure you think it'd be like Alaska or Hawaii. No, Vermont was the lone holdout. Although, you know, that that might have that gap might have closed since then. I mean, this probably a month or so two ago. But yeah, so, you know, the organization really, you know, it focuses on being a full lifecycle. I mean, there's lots of organizations that do parts of it that are very similar, you know, mentoring and things like that, as well as government programs through the SPDC or SBA programs and things like that as well. But, you know, Warrior Rising, really proud that prides itself on being a full lifecycle for that so that somebody comes in at any given stage, whether it's concept or whether, you know, they're further along as well, they could have, you know, being an MBA program even, it pretty much looks at that individual and says, here's where you are, here's where you need to be to move on to the next step. And then we'll shepherd you, you know, through all those stages, whether it's funding, whether it's again, maintaining that community on the back end, you know, etc. It's not just sort of a one and done, you know, yeah, we mentor, no, we're doing everything, you know, that's part of that program to make sure that people are feel like they're treated, you know, individually, you know, with what their needs are, and then where they need to move on to to achieve you know, viability, sustainability, which are to pill, you know, to guidestones, guideposts sorry, and, and be able to sustain themselves, you know, in business so. Brian Schoenborn 24:34 I'll tell you guys, you guys got me man, I, we had this discussion The other day you and I did and I forget, I forget exactly how I came across Warrior Rising but I but I did, right? I came across it and I put in my application, you know, so I had to submit my business plan. I submit my pitch deck, right, that kind of stuff. You know what kind of funding I'm looking for. And you had me when you got a hold of me and you said Brian, I think you're one of the most prepared guys I've ever seen. Ken Vennera 25:00 Yeah, it's true, though it's true. You know, I see a lot of applicants for sure. Yeah. And listen, you know, even those that aren't as well prepared. I mean, we do our best to try and you know, help them as well. Brian Schoenborn 25:10 Well, that's the thing though, cuz I mean, like, I get nervous because, you know, I don't want to fly by the seat of my pants. Ken Vennera 25:14 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 25:15 I want to make sure that I'm gonna do something that I'm gonna put all my heart and soul into it. Ken Vennera 25:18 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 25:20 Especially given some of these other opportunities in the past that I'd gotten the short end of the stick on. Yeah. I want to make sure that I built my, my media company, on a solid foundation. Ken Vennera 25:32 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 25:32 Right? But it's, I think it's good to have that. But you also have to recognize at what time are you ready to take the leap and start executing? Ken Vennera 25:38 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 25:39 Right? So like for me, I had plan and plan and plan and plan and I recorded some interviews and you know, stuff like that. And I was nervous to hit submit. Ken Vennera 25:48 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 25:49 Right? It wasn't until a friend of mine she she put a big boot in my eyes and said fucking do it. Do this, Brian. Submit right? Ken Vennera 25:58 Do it. Do it exactly. Brian Schoenborn 25:59 No more. There's no more pussyfooting around what I you know, like, just do it. And so I have, yeah. And you know, it's been going all right. But um, you know, but the point being is that, you know, there's other applicants out or entrepreneurs in general, veteran entrepreneurs that that well, even just regular entrepreneurs, like in general veteran or otherwise, you know, there has to be a point in time where you have to say, okay, let's execute. Ken Vennera 26:24 Yeah, I'll tell you the biggest two problems, Brian, that I see. And, and it's pretty typical, as you mentioned, across the board, whether military, you know, ex military or not, is, you know, people either follow one of two routes, and that is they either plan and don't execute, or they execute without planning. Brian Schoenborn 26:42 Yes. Ken Vennera 26:42 Which is also a big problem as well. Brian Schoenborn 26:44 Yeah, they could both be recipes for disaster. Ken Vennera 26:46 Yeah. And they and they are because you know, they executing without planning is definitely a recipe for driving off a cliff. Brian Schoenborn 26:51 That's where you're just making shit up. Right? Ken Vennera 26:53 Yeah. Exactly. Just it doesn't work. It might work for a short time. Yeah. But you know that and that's why all You know, we strive for, again, its viability and sustainability, right, like viability meaning, you know, will it work and sustainability, you know, will it last, you know, kind of thing. Because they're very, they're they're both very important. You can't have one without the other. Brian Schoenborn 27:13 Yep. Ken Vennera 27:14 Yeah, it's a little bit hard. I will tell you sometimes especially, you know, trying to have people who put a lot of their effort into something and they've worked very hard, either in the military or, you know, in trying to stand up their business, you know, it's hard to tell people that are entrepreneurially minded, and a little bit of ego, you know, behind it, that, you know, where they have gaps and identify, you know, where their flaws. You know, that sometimes is a stumbling block, because people take it as criticism, but it's never intended that way. It's really just intended to say, look, you know, we don't need to help you where you're strong, but we need to help you where you have gaps, you know, where you're missing things. And, yeah, it's a little bit hard, but I think once people understand that, they don't see it then as criticism. They see it as, you know, helping you in the areas where you're weak, you know? And that's what a team does, right? I mean, that's what your teammates do is they pick you up where you're weak, you know, and help you Brian Schoenborn 28:08 Talk about egos man, because not only not only are these people entrepreneurs, so they believe in themselves enough that they have something that people want to buy. Sure. But they're also veterans, which means they've gone through hell and seen a lot of things that other people haven't seen for sure. Ken Vennera 28:24 Yeah, sure. So it is hard. It's hard to tell somebody like here's what you don't know. Brian Schoenborn 28:30 Yep. Oh, no. I mean, even in our first couple of conversations, I'm like, What the hell, I'm like, you don't know what you're talking about, Ken. Just like, you know, you're kind of like, you know, talk to me off the ledge a little bit, you know, shit like that. So I want to know, um, so you mentioned I just want to talk a little bit about your partner Jason are, you know, the leader of this? Ken Vennera 28:49 He's Executive Director, I work for him. Brian Schoenborn 28:50 Right. Right. Right. He's the leader. Yeah. Jason van Camp. So you're saying he's a Green Beret officer? Ken Vennera 28:58 He was he was a major major. Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 29:00 Nice. I wonder if he knows my or if he knows my friend Chris. I bet he does. He was a lieutenant colonel Green Beret. He was 30, 30. Ken Vennera 29:06 What's his last name? Brian Schoenborn 29:07 Schmidt. Ken Vennera 29:08 I don't know possibly. Brian Schoenborn 29:09 He was a an army in the army for like 30 years and 18 of it as a Green Beret. Yeah, pretty long, significant career as well, that asides and I'm just kind of mumbling out about that. But I'm just curious. Like, what if any types of values or frameworks, maybe that Jason got from his time in the Special Forces does he carry over? Ken Vennera 29:37 That is well, it's not if any, there's certainly certainly a lot of them I mean, that's that could be probably show but our program all by itself, Brian, to be honest with you. Brian Schoenborn 29:46 It'd be awesome to get him on. Ken Vennera 29:49 Definitely. He definitely should. I'd highly recommend it, man. I'll tell you what, you know, Jason is one of the most, you know, inspiring guys that I've ever cross, you know, come across in my life. He looks at things with that, you know, intense drive towards, you know, success. I mean, you know, he he will tell you no, no rush, you know, don't rush to failure, you know, you know, he's very selfless guy very interested in helping other people. You know, even when he you know, he just wrote a book, Deliberate Discomfort, which, you know, is now out on Amazon, etc. But you know, even doing that, I mean, you know, there's people out there, especially in the military community that write books and other people, you know, people have different opinions about former military people that write books and things like that. But I can tell you, you know, in all honesty, I mean, Jason is definitely a guy that is about helping people, you know, like, it's, it's first about, you know, teaching and driving you to be a better person, before even himself. I mean, he's definitely a guy that's you know, about team creating that you know, sort of team spirit and you know, his concept of, you know, deliberate discomfort, you know, from Special Forces times, you know, his training, etc. revolves, you know, around that whole idea of, you know, putting yourself into situations where you're not comfortable and getting used to that and making yourself a stronger person. Brian Schoenborn 31:19 Hell yeah. Ken Vennera 31:20 Um, and, you know, I can tell you, I mean, that's the theme of his book. He tells it through stories of individual, you know, individuals in different situations to, you know, as examples and then gives you sort of the science behind it. I mean, it's a tremendous, tremendous book. I mean, there's a lot of great lessons, you know, that he has there, but he as a person, man. It's, it's way beyond even what's you know, in that book, I mean, he is definitely the type that inspires people to do better. Which is obviously one of the main characteristics of you know, being a leader. Brian Schoenborn 31:54 Yep. Ken Vennera 31:55 You know, again, it's all about creating something above himself. Putting himself out there all the time. I mean, I can't even tell you all the sacrifices, I could tell you. But again, it would probably be its own show. All the sacrifices that he makes, I mean, you know, he's got his own business, running, you know, Warrior Rising, he's got a family, a young family, you know, besides that, you know, requires and demands, you know, his attention and things like that. And he really gives his all to all of those things. And it's just amazing. It's just amazing to me, you know, how he's able to do you know, that stuff. And like I said, I mean, you know, I'm a pretty smart guy. I have a pretty solid background myself, but I definitely consider Jason one of the most, you know, inspiring and admirable guys I've ever come across, you know, in terms of having those qualities of leadership but also that side that, you know, cares about people, you know, things like that. I mean, he's definitely not the typical hard nosed military, when it comes to the interpersonal side, but surely, in terms of the values and characteristics that he carries over from his training that you asked about. He's definitely, you know, all about, you know, carrying them over in the best way possible to help people be better people, you know, kind of thing, so. Brian Schoenborn 33:10 That's, that's interesting. I want to talk a little bit about the, the concept of deliberate discomfort. Ken Vennera 33:16 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 33:17 I think I think he and I kind of share that ethos. Now for years. I've said about getting comfortable outside your comfort zone. Right? So we word it a little bit differently. But I you know, I consider myself very comfortable. being uncomfortable. You know, it's the things that are unfamiliar the things that you don't know you haven't done, you haven't eaten. People you haven't interacted with, whatever. You know, it's part of the reason why I dropped everything in New York and moved to China. Right? Ken Vennera 33:47 There you go. Brian Schoenborn 33:47 I didn't know anybody. I just never been there. Ken Vennera 33:49 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 33:50 I didn't know what to expect. You know, nevermind the language, right? Ken Vennera 33:54 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 33:55 But until you until you get out there and do something, you know, like getting getting in that discomfort zone or getting outside of your comfort zone. I mean, that's, I feel like that's where you that's where the learning happens. Ken Vennera 34:09 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 34:09 That's where the growth happens. Ken Vennera 34:11 Exactly. Brian Schoenborn 34:11 Like that's where, you know, you and there's nothing wrong with like staying in your little bubble your entire life either necessarily I mean some people can live nice comfortable lives. Ken Vennera 34:22 Different strokes, different strokes for different folks, you know, as they say, right but you know, the real genesis of creativity comes from, you know, stressful situations, unfortunately, you know, I mean, I know you didn't want to talk about Corona virus, Brian Schoenborn 34:36 but whatever we can talk about it. Ken Vennera 34:36 But not too much. Thankfully, there's too much talk about it as it is. But, you know, the thing I find is that, you know, innovation comes from stressful sit, you know, from problems, you know, like, look at all the inventions that were throughout history has created, you know, a lot of innovation has come from, you know, technology and things like that have come from, you know, being in those kinds of situations. We're like, look, we have to do something about this. You know, whereas people are just comfortable they're never really going to look outside, there's no, there's no reason to look outside their comfort zone, as you mentioned, like their little bubbles. So, I would look at that discomfort kind of concept as being the genesis for creativity and innovation, you know, for sure in society. So, you know, it's the force to move, you know, past where somebody might exist at any given time. And certainly, you know, as I said, I mean, you know, that's the credo that that Jason follows, you know, for sure. Brian Schoenborn 34:37 What was the thing you're telling me? So we went for a walk earlier today. Kind of, you know, meeting of the minds kind of shit. Ken Vennera 35:41 Two philosophy, two philosophers walking along. Brian Schoenborn 35:44 It was a little philosophical. Yes. Good. Walking meeting. But you were talking something about? There's like a loop like a cycle. Ken Vennera 35:53 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 35:53 About that good people are strong people. Ken Vennera 35:56 Yeah, so the saying goes that weak men make bad times. Bad times make strong men. Strong men make good times. Good times make weak men. So yeah, that's pretty much the cycle. I didn't originate that, obviously. But clearly, it's pretty accurate. Brian Schoenborn 36:14 But that stood out to me because I'm like, it's you know, it's all about the hustle, right? It's about the struggle, the struggle is real, right? Like, um. Ken Vennera 36:20 For sure. Brian Schoenborn 36:21 For example, I was basically homeless for two years. And I was out surfing, fucking. I was living in a hostel for the last six months and just got into my own place. You know, fighting with the VA trying to get my disability benefits and all that shit. And it took me like they were just sitting on it, man, like it took me going into the VA triggering the shit out of myself. I was I was so triggered. I was like, convulsing in this place. Ken Vennera 36:45 Shame. Brian Schoenborn 36:46 If I wasn't struggling like that. You know what? I was doing all that while I'm building a company. Ken Vennera 36:51 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 36:51 You know, while I'm managing a restaurant, right? Shout out to Chipotle woot. You know, keeping myself extremely busy. Do you like sure working like 100 hours a week? Right? Ken Vennera 37:02 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 37:02 You know, but still taking myself into a place of extreme discomfort. Ken Vennera 37:08 Yep. Brian Schoenborn 37:09 Where I was extremely triggered and I had to go there numerous times over the first month or so, just to make sure that the paperwork was right. You know, I'm getting they understand my situation, right? Finally was able to get some some VA treatment, which I've been denied for for so long. Started getting that thing going. If it wasn't me taking that action when I was struggling, I would not have seen any sort of success. Ken Vennera 37:40 Mm hmm. Brian Schoenborn 37:40 Right? As a result of me going there and taking matters into my own hands. It sped the process along. Ken Vennera 37:46 Sure. Yeah. And Necessity is the mother of invention. You know, like they say, I mean, it's unfortunate but you know, that's what spurs on that creativity to want to get out of that situation, right. Like most people if they're in a good situation. Don't look for ways to get out of it. Brian Schoenborn 38:01 Right, exactly. I mean, I think about I think about the innovations, it'd be interesting to see a study and innovations between people coming from cold weather versus people coming from, like the tropics. Ken Vennera 38:13 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 38:13 You know, it's like a beach life, man. That's Ken Vennera 38:15 Right! Who wants to leave San Diego right? Brian Schoenborn 38:18 Got a coconut. You got a beach. Ken Vennera 38:19 exactly what do I need to go anywhere? It's for sure. Yeah, yeah, it was funny. You mentioned you go into China, you know, and speaking, you know, not knowing the language very well or things like that. I mean, being placed in completely foreign culture, you know, etc. You know, I often think it just reminds me of hearing you say a few those things that you know, one of the things I admire most about my grandfather, my dad's dad, was, you know, he left you know, Italy at 17 years old to come to this country. Did not Brian Schoenborn 38:53 That's a bold move, man. Ken Vennera 38:54 Totally a bold move without his family. But not didn't even have. I mean, if you have a certain level of education, even if you're still not educated in that language, you understand how it is sort of get around a little bit better, how to ask different questions, etc, that might help you in that situation. But, you know, he hardly had any education in Italy came here at 17 years old, you know, started a family, um, you know, within two generations, you know, here I am going to an Ivy League school, you know, and then law school, you know, even beyond that. So, I mean, it's real, a real testament again, to, you know, that pioneering spirit or, you know, putting yourself like you said, and, you know, or as Jason would even say, you know, in that situation of discomfort, you know, and then forcing yourself to excel, you know, to to get yourself out of it. Brian Schoenborn 39:42 Well, that's the dream right? Move to America. You know, work hard, work hard, and hopefully your children or your children's children can see, the fruits of the labor. Ken Vennera 39:52 As long as that as long as that element of sacrifice is there. Absolutely. Brian, I mean, I think in some ways, though, what's been lost on many a younger generation than you and I, is people want immediate gratification. Brian Schoenborn 40:05 Sure. Ken Vennera 40:06 And that's the thing that I think has changed the most. Brian Schoenborn 40:08 They don't want to work for it. Ken Vennera 40:10 Yeah, or they're there. It's not even so much, they don't necessarily want to work for it. They're not willing to sacrifice their own gratification for the benefit of future generations necessarily. So in other words, they're not willing to postpone their gratification in order to set the, you know, children that the, you know, the future generations up for that success. And I think that hurts because my grandfather's generation, in and of itself, you know, yeah, they would be considered successful maybe by the standards of where they came from, etc. But they wouldn't be considered necessarily successful in this country. I mean, they were blue collar factory type workers in this country. I mean, my, my grandfather worked in an asbestos plant, you know, which, who would take a job in an asbestos plant today, like you would never do that, right. So it wasn't like He, you know, in his own generation was successful. But you know, in a way, that mentality of sacrificing, you know, for the benefit of, you know, his children and then their children, you know, and so forth, creates that opportunity. And I think that's what's you know, gotten lost a little bit is, you know, it's, it's not that people don't necessarily want to work hard. I think if people understood that how things worked a little bit better, they probably would be more willing to do that. But I think what's gone is the putting off, you know, the self denial kind of aspect in favor of, you know, helping the future generations kind of thing a little bit so, Brian Schoenborn 41:38 Yeah, I kind of I kind of waffle on that one. I mean, no, cuz I mean, cuz I, in one sense, I agree with you. Right? I think that sounds fairly accurate. And the other side of that coin, it does sound a lot like, you know, millennial bashing. Ken Vennera 41:55 I didn't make any group. Brian Schoenborn 41:56 I know, but I'm a millennial. I'm an elder, millennial. Ken Vennera 42:01 but but actually that's in favor of, you know millennials and the generation because that's one of the things if you look at a lot of commentators, they'll say like, you know, the millennials or generation without hope of doing those things. Brian Schoenborn 42:13 And I think they're also saying they're spending all their savings on avocado toast. Ken Vennera 42:17 And that wasn't me. That wasn't me saying that. Brian Schoenborn 42:19 I know. Ken Vennera 42:20 I don't think that I think, you know, I think that a lot of people, if they're guided in the right direction, you know, will do the right thing. I mean, I think, I don't think anybody wants to be lazy or do bad things or anything like that, you know, by far. I think that was the appropriate kind of direction, though. And it's like anything else, I mean, you know, to sort of go back to where you're rising a little bit. Again, you know, you have people that are talented, sort of, you know, former military in a certain direction. He needs need the guidance in other directions to, you know, create that analogy to create that bridge sometimes, and you need people willing to do that and You know, kudos to, you know, people like Jason that are willing to, you know, sort of show that path to people. You know, I think that's what's really important. I think that's what's missing very often, you know, in today's society. Brian Schoenborn 43:12 Yeah, I hear that. So I hear that, you know, it can be hard to connect all the dots. Sure. Quick, quick question. How did like how did you guys, how did you two come into like Ken Vennera 43:23 Contact? Brian Schoenborn 43:23 How did you how did you come into being? Ken Vennera 43:25 so very funny, like I said, I was doing a lot of, you know, veteran related activities and things like that. I was doing a lot of sort of freelancing on the internet in terms or on LinkedIn, specifically, helping guys find jobs, because when I went into, you know, more of an advisory board role with Operation Homefront, I was really looking for an organization that would help former military find, you know, jobs. To be, you know, again, sustainable you in that way. I couldn't really find at the time a group that I thought was Being very effective in that regard. I mean, there were lots of groups that were trying to educate, you know, employers about how to hire military and all kinds of things, you know, around surrounding sort of that but, but never anyone that was really sort of directly doing that. So, I was trying to help people as I could with, you know, mock interviewing or looking at the resumes and all these kinds of things, and, you know, made friends with a lot of people along the way. In particular, one guy, former Navy guy, you know, he said to me one day, he's like, you know, you should really get in touch with this guy, Jason van Camp. And see what Warrior Rising is all about, you know, that they're helping guys, you know, start businesses and I thought about it for quite a bit and said, you know, that's probably even better than trying to find people jobs because you start a business I mean, you can possibly employ a Brian Schoenborn 43:27 It's multitudes of jobs. Ken Vennera 43:42 Right, exactly. It's a force multiplier, you know, kind of thing in a way and I'm like, you know what, like, maybe I haven't been I've been narrowing my focus too much. In that, you know, going into this arena of helping, you know, military start start businesses is actually probably even a better thing and, you know, got involved with Warrior Rising got involved with Jason and you know, I'll tell you like I said, you know, Jason's charisma man like his drive towards you know what he's doing i mean you know again you look at like traits of leadership man you know if people inspire that's one of the key traits of being a good leader and Jason definitely inspires me. Clearly inspired me to, you know, want to put my efforts towards doing what you know what Warrior Rising's doing and making it into a success. So yeah, that's that's pretty much how it came about. Well, so two years now almost just about a couple months short, but pretty close. Brian Schoenborn 45:46 Nice. Ken Vennera 45:46 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 45:47 Um. Sorry. I kind of bounced around a little bit but a Ken Vennera 45:50 Bounce all you want. Brian Schoenborn 45:51 Yeah. I just you know, as you're speaking things are things trigger, right. Ken Vennera 45:56 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 45:57 Because I connect dots as well, right? Ken Vennera 45:59 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 45:59 Reminds me of, you're talking about helping people connect the dots, helping helping entrepreneurs get going that kind of stuff. Veteran entrepreneurs reminds me, the weird thing is like, when you're in the military, everything's laid out for you. Right? You're part of this machine. And you do, as you're told, and you know, but you know, by the time you get through boot camp, or basic training, or maybe your school afterwards, you pretty much know how to conduct yourself and what is expected basically every day. Ken Vennera 46:29 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 46:30 Right. So you're in this Ken Vennera 46:33 Mode? Brian Schoenborn 46:34 Sure. That's what's the word I was thinking. Whenever you're in this, you're in this fucking mode, where every single day you know exactly what you have to do. Ken Vennera 46:42 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 46:43 On the entrepreneurial side, every day, it's a blank slate, right? It's a clean slate. Like you you got to figure out everything that you're doing. You know, you write the script, basically, right. It reminds me when I went to grad school, when I went to business xchool the first day of orientation. One of our think she was a career services. Barbara Hyle, shout out to Barb. She wrote two words on the board on this white board said embrace ambiguity. Ken Vennera 47:15 Flexibility, name of the game for sure. Brian Schoenborn 47:17 That's something that's kind of stuck with me. That's kind of what what it made me think of there when you're like, Oh, you know, helping people connect the dots and the circles and stuff because you're, you know, again, when you're when you're going from something where everything is regimented, like that's, that's the whole reason that term is there, right? It's regimented routine, basically every single day to what the hell am I doing? I'm creating something out of nothing. Right. That can be a big change, man. And people Ken Vennera 47:42 Well, so I think, you know, again, and forgive me for characterizing, you know, never served in military myself, but I think a lot of what you're talking about in the military is not necessarily that overall, everything is regimented. Right, what's regimented? His training right and whenever you're in a and execution to a certain extent, like certain operations, right? But that's because like in life, you can only control the things you can control. Brian Schoenborn 48:12 Right. Ken Vennera 48:14 I think the thing again piecing together from a military perspective that people they understand when they're in that that situation but then don't understand it necessarily once they get out because they're not within that framework is that that basis right that foundation for that kind of regimented training, etc. And that following orders in a certain way following you know, standard operating procedures, etc, is because eventually in many situations, especially in combat, you end up not seeing, you know, the the regimentation, right. In other words, you end up seeing the things that go off the reservation, right, like, Brian Schoenborn 48:54 You're living life in the margins, on the battlefield. Ken Vennera 48:56 So you know it What's that expression that you know, no place survives first contact with the enemy, you know kind of thing right? Brian Schoenborn 49:02 Like Mike Tyson said, everyone has a plan to get punched in the face, right, like so. Ken Vennera 49:09 So, you know, but that's the whole idea is that it's, it's, you know, one of the beautiful things about military training is saying, like, Look, we're going to create this foundation from you. So that when you're placed into these situations where you're not sure, again, going back to the whole, deliberate discomfort, you know, concept, you know, Jason, you know, it's training yourself to constantly react in a certain way so that when you're faced with that ambiguity, when you're faced with that uncertainty, when you're faced with, you know, the enemy in your face, it's, you know, 50 meters, you know, kind of thing, you're now able to deal with that because of all of that muscle memory, regimentation, etc. Like, you know, calming yourself down thinking in a certain direction. You know, is is extremely valuable, you know, it's extremely valuable when you're facing You know, uncertainty and things like that. I tell people very often, you know, if I asked you, for example, to navigate from your bedroom door of your house to your front door, you're gonna be like, not a problem, right? Piece of cake. But, right, but but all of a sudden, if you're blindfolded and it's dark, right, you know, you're gonna start employing tactics that you know about your training, right, you're gonna put your arm out and reach certain distance and feel around to get your bearings for what your environment holds. Again, all of these things from training, etc. to understand, like, I need to know what my environment is, I need to know what the weather is, I need to know assess the situation. All those things for training come in handy now, because what you're doing is reducing the number of variables down to the minimum number so that you have the best chance, you know, an opportunity of success. Ken Vennera 50:49 You know, the other analogy I use a lot when like mentoring is that it's a lot like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. You know, when you first start out with a jigsaw puzzle, you know, you dump the box. Have 1000 pieces and they're all over the place summer the backside, you know, that's all brown without the picture and summer, the you know, the the picture side, you have edge pieces, etc, you know. So the first thing you do is turn all the pieces over. So you can see that, you know, they're all facing the same way. Why again, reduce those numbers of variables of unknowns and things like that you have to, you know, smaller number, then what do you do you put all the edge pieces together first, why? Because there's a clue with the edge pieces that all the other pieces don't have and that is they have an edge. Right? Brian Schoenborn 51:33 Right. Ken Vennera 51:34 So you you again, you put them all together and now you've reduced the variables down, you know, to a smaller number, then you start to put like pieces with like pieces, right? Again, utilizing as much information as you possibly have to reduce those numbers of variables and so forth. And little by little man, you put those things together and you end up with a complete, you know, picture from that. Brian Schoenborn 51:55 Hell yeah. Ken Vennera 51:56 And that's what it's a lot like i think you know, so yes, there is that aspect of regimentation in the training and always go into battle. So you develop that muscle memory, but it's the application of that in those situations like in combat or otherwise, where you're facing unknowns, and very much so like when you're in business, you know, of course, the consequences aren't quite as dire as being in combat, but you know, you're facing pretty, you know, dire consequences if your business is going to fail and things like that. And you have to support your family well, and and your employees if you haven't, right, and your employees lives, etc. So, you know, there's a lot of situations like that, I mean, look, look at all of the things that come up in business where, you know, all of a sudden, there, you know, a regulation is passed, for example, that you didn't have to do X, but now you have to do it, and that's gonna cost you three times as much, and possibly, you know, you don't have a margin left anymore, you know? Or look at what's going on with this. Sorry, like the coronavirus. And I know he didn't want to talk about that. I'm so sorry. Brian Schoenborn 53:01 That's all everyone's talking about. It's all right though. Ken Vennera 53:03 But but it's such a good example. And because if you think about it, you know, what, who was who was planning for this in their business three months ago? Brian Schoenborn 53:11 Oh, nobody. Ken Vennera 53:12 Right, who was creating that reserve to carry them over this, you know, situation three months ago? And and that's this, you know, that's the kind of stuff it's like, what do you do when something hits you that you really didn't expect? Well, now you revert back to your training, your muscle memory, your things that like, you know, work in these kinds of situations to help guide Brian Schoenborn 53:32 Sanitize your hands. Ken Vennera 53:33 Right, wash your hands. Brian Schoenborn 53:34 Not traveling on an airplane, Brian? Ken Vennera 53:36 Right. So, I mean, but it's all of those things, then help the situation reduce the number of variables make it more manageable, I mean, nobody has a crystal ball, right? Nobody has a crystal ball ever, you know, kind of thing. So what do you do man, you reduce the number of things, the unknowns down to a manageable level, you know, and you do that, you know, by utilizing that training and so forth. So, so I agree with you I mean there's a lot of regimentation etc to the military but it's there for a reason. Brian Schoenborn 54:05 Yeah it's for a purpose for sure. Ken Vennera 54:06 Exactly and and the same reason that it is there you know in the military is the same reason it's effective and useful even in the business world or in life in general, you know, in terms of developing ways to cope with situations and the unknowns and so forth so. Brian Schoenborn 54:23 Huh. Habits. We are habitual animals. Ken Vennera 54:27 Good habits well good habits developing good habits you know for sure and that's again training right in the military develop good habits right you know and do things the right way all the time you know what I mean? Brian Schoenborn 54:36 Getting up at 06, creasee cammies, spit-shine shoes, you're cleaning a rifle every second you get. Ken Vennera 54:44 Sure. Responsibility, dedication and all those factors that again, will get you through tough situations. You know? Brian Schoenborn 54:50 Focus. Ken Vennera 54:51 Focus exactly. Brian Schoenborn 54:52 Laser like focus. Ken Vennera 54:53 Yep. Brian Schoenborn 54:54 Yep, do it for sure. It's been a pretty good chat so far. Ken Vennera 54:58 Think so I listen. I enjoy talking man, I can talk to you probably for another three hours if you wanted to, but Brian Schoenborn 55:02 We could, we could filibuster this shit. Ken Vennera 55:07 And it's been good man I really love you know, being on the show for sure, man, I love I love the thoughts, you know, that we're talking about, you know, because I think it'll help a lot of people, you know, it helps a lot of people to hear, even if they already know it, it helps to hear sometimes. Brian Schoenborn 55:20 I think, you know, I think one of the important things is, this is a this is a podcast, so it's not visibility, but you know, what I mean, like accessibility, maybe like when people have an opportunity to hear or see things that, you know, they might not know, they might not know otherwise, or to see it again, maybe something they haven't thought about in a while. Ken Vennera 55:40 Reinforcement. Sure. Brian Schoenborn 55:40 Reinforcement. Ken Vennera 55:41 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 55:42 You know, I could help a lot of people and that's to be honest like that's why that's why I get people on that have interesting stories and are doing are doing some really cool things sure of yourself. But that's also why I'm so like, open and vocal about like, you know, my like my PTSD experience and stuff like that, know? Because the more you can talk about things, the more people can understand. Ken Vennera 56:05 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 56:06 And the more people can understand things, the more people can be helped. Ken Vennera 56:10 Absolutely. Brian Schoenborn 56:10 You know, because whether whether you have like a like a thing like a mental illness like PTSD, or whether you're running a business, right? A lot of times you can feel like you're on your own. Ken Vennera 56:21 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 56:22 Being an entrepreneur, it can be lonely man. Ken Vennera 56:23 It can be, for sure. Brian Schoenborn 56:25 You hear other people's voices and hear that there's support out there. And there's resources, Ken Vennera 56:31 Absolutely. Brian Schoenborn 56:31 you feel a little bit less, less lonely. Ken Vennera 56:34 You know, I'll tell you to Bri just to, you know

Ken Vennera is a man of many hats. Wharton educated, corporate lawyer, and mentor, he is also involved with Warrior Rising as Chief of Staff — a veteran nonprofit that helps veteran entrepreneurs get off the ground and positioned for success.

Ken Vennera is a man of many hats. Wharton educated, corporate lawyer, and mentor, he is also involved with Warrior Rising as Chief of Staff — a veteran nonprofit that helps veteran entrepreneurs get off the ground and positioned for success.

Nick Bedard embraces the journey.From using guerrilla journalism tactics to get his NBA credentials, to becoming a Chinese culture reporter and 6-time Beijing city boxing champion, to returning home and attempting a start-up, he shares his stories and lessons learned along the way. Show Notes Follow Nick on Instagram | LinkedIn Basketball Buddha Theme music by: Ruel Morales Audio Transcript Brian Schoenborn 0:01 Hello, hello. Hey everyone. Our guest today has embraced the journey. He's man whose explored very many parts of the world and done some pretty incredible things, including his time since I've known him in Beijing as the six-time Beijing city boxing champion. He also got to start as an NBA journalist in Korea, I think he covered the Korean basketball league as well. Meanwhile, as boxing city champion six times, he moonlighted as a Chinese propagandist, or journalist or journalist with a white face. Give it up for my friend Nick the Quantum Beast Bedard. Brian Schoenborn 0:51 My name is Brian Schoenborn. I'm an explorer, people, places and culture. In my travels spreading over 20 countries across four continents, I've had the pleasure of engaging in authentic conversations with amazingly interesting people. These are their stories, on location and unfiltered. Presented by 8B Media. This is Half the City. Nick Bedard 1:18 Thanks for having me on Brian. I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to share I'm happy to share the journey. Like you said I do embrace the journey. The destination is important but the the mass emphasis of my you know, lifestyle and so on has been the journey time and time again and we're going to talk about a few of those journeys today. So thank you very much. I hope this is going to be you know, entertaining. If not, you know, if you learn anything from it, that's great. But I'm here to share my story because that's what this podcast…right. Brian Schoenborn 1:56 I'm coming back off from a brief hiatus. I had to take a little bit of break due to some family emergencies. But I'm posting up in the studio right now in Hollywood. A nice little spot. And we're doing this one remote baby. Nick's hanging out. Where are you? Where are you at? Are you in Montreal? Or? Nick Bedard 2:14 I'm in Toronto, Canada. Brian Schoenborn 2:15 Toronto. Right? Okay. Right on man. So, what brings you to Toronto? What What do you mean? What are you doing back there now? Nick Bedard 2:22 Well, this is home for me. So after almost a decade of you know, traveling and and, you know, fulfilling journeys that I've always wanted to fulfill, I finally come back to my home base and used all of the knowledge used all of the experience to establish the career that I'm doing now, which I'm super excited about. I don't want to spoil it right away. I guess we could start with kind of what brought me to Asia in the first place, because that's kind of where the journey all began. Brian Schoenborn 2:52 And so you said you spent what, like 10 years in Asia roughly. Nick Bedard 2:56 In nearly a decade, yes. Brian Schoenborn 2:58 So how do you make a decision to go from Canada, you know, Western, Western culture, you know, Western lifestyle. How do you make that decision to go, you know, take that jump from that to something probably completely different to you. I mean, I know I lived in Asia as well, and I had my own reasons for it. But that can be a pretty big move for people coming from other parts of the world. Nick Bedard 3:22 It is and I didn't grow up, you know, dreaming of going to Asia that wasn't part of my, you know, plan after high school and, and going to journalism school and thinking, Well, you know, what, I'm gonna go cover some stuff in Asia that that was never part of the formula. What happened was, I wanted to be a sports writer, I was a pretty good High School athlete, played soccer, played basketball, you know, even badminton, football, and I was always kind of over achieving in these eSports. And oftentimes, I would be interviewed by the local journalists and I thought, Well, you know what, that that'd be a pretty cool job. I don't think I'm going to be made In the NBA at all the basketball was my favorite sport. I spent, you know, countless hours just shooting 500 jump shots from from this corner and then 500 from that corner, you're just going through these regiments of you try my best to be at that and kind of funneled into like journalism when I chose journalism as something I wanted to pursue. It was really it I really brought that that kind of mindset of those 500 jumpers from the corner to journalism where I wanted to learn everything about it. And and I wanted to cover basketball. Nick Bedard 4:36 So when I was in journalism school, covering the school team, you know, traveling with them on the road games and really being like a beat writer for the local for the school paper that really excited me to you know, look at different options on where I can fit into this heavily competitive, you know, basketball journalist market. I was really lucky at the time because journalism was transitioning from kind of a print and broadcasting medium to the blogosphere where, you know, journalism was going to a really digital based medium or media per se. So I looked at that blogging was very young, having your own site was very young, that was very new. We're talking about 2009. And and just to put that into perspective, I think YouTube started, you know, being popular around 2008. So everything was still kind of young and figuring itself out, so after journalism school, I really you know, I picked up a job as a copywriter for an advertising company, and that's, that's, it's interesting, I say that because that's gonna come full circle, but before we go too far. As a copywriter, that's when I was kind of mapping this master plan of figuring out where I'm gonna fit into this kind of NBA, you know, journalist, a dream that I had. So the destination was, I want to be an NBA writer. I want to be an accredited NBA writer. I want the badge that says Nick Bedard NBA media, but it's the journey that I had to figure out. Brian Schoenborn 6:19 And so how did you like what did you? How did you figure out that Asia was the place to be? Nick Bedard 6:26 Well, around that time, it was it was about 2010 2011 around the time that I started getting really serious about you know, shifting from the copywriting rolled back into what I wanted to do as my dream job per se. And and the NBA was in lockout at the time the collective bargaining agreement, so they were at the table with the owners and, and so there was a lockout in the league. And a lot of players were going to play in Turkey, a lot of players are willing to play in Greece, but that economy was also you know, still recovering from the 2008 financial crisis. Europe was tanking. And and some say it hasn't really recovered yet. Right? Nick Bedard 7:08 So so I didn't really see much happening there, in the sense of, you know, try and kind of fit into this, this this role. There were already people kind of covering the league, but not really because, you know, a lot of cuts were being made to the media industry there. And it just didn't seem as exciting to me. So then I thought, well, what about college ball seeing as how there's no NBA, maybe I can kind of, but I'm in Canada, right? I'm in Toronto at the time, so that there really there isn't really an NCAA presence here. Brian Schoenborn 7:38 Right. Nick Bedard 7:39 What I did see and this was during the time where Jeremy Lin was was was coming out and he was having his fame. Yao Ming was was already established. And I saw some of the players signed these ridiculously high contracts. We're talking about like, six figures or seven figures over in China. And and we're talking about guys like J.R. Smith and Kenyon Martin who grew up on the streets and kind of have that, you know, that cultural attitude that that, that that that really like, is kind of the opposite of that strict attitude that's in China. Nick Bedard 8:15 So I thought, Wow, what a story. These guys are going over there and not giving a shit about anything. We're just going to call it can I swear here? Brian Schoenborn 8:23 Dude, you can say whatever the fuck you want. Nick Bedard 8:26 I'm sorry, but they don't give a shit. They're going over there to collecting their paycheck while these owners figure it out. And as far as rules and regulations, I'm just showing up to play. And that's it. I mean, I heard this one story about Kenyon Martin first meeting the owner of a team over there, and he had his shoes on the table. He had his he had his Beats headphones on and the owners come to say like, Hey, we're happy to have yours again, whatever, whatever. Just give me the ball. Nobody's covering this. This is hilarious. So I thought okay, you know, I I I know I know where I need to go, I know where it needs to go. But I don't know how to do it yet. Nick Bedard 9:06 So I needed to come up with the kind of brand and come up with a website. And working in copywriting. I was around people that were doing web dev, I was around people that were buying domain names for clients and so on. So I really had a good insight on on the marketing side of it and the development side of it from from where I was working. So I was kind of positioned in a, in a good place where I could learn kind of how to take that next step. And then I went to a blogging conference in Toronto, where they had a bunch of sports bloggers and Mind you, this is very new at the time, you know, Jamil Hill was there from ESPN, a few other like Sports Illustrated writers that were there. And it was a conference where we didn't really know what was going on, but we knew something was coming up. You know, we were talking about the early stages of SB Nation or Bleacher Report. So I thought, well, you know if I could follow that and do my own thing, that that could probably catapult me into to Asia and I can bring that kind of blog brand with me. No, not blog in the sense of what I had for breakfast but blog in the sense that this is what I'm covering, you know, as part of, of what a newspaper sports section would be. You know what I mean? Brian Schoenborn 10:19 Absolutely. Oh, that's where Basketball Buddha came about, right? Nick Bedard 10:22 That's, that's where I got the idea. I needed a brand. I needed a name. I thought okay, basketball in asia.com. Boring. Basketball with characteristics.com. You know? And then I was like, Okay, well, you know, basketball is kind of a religion to me at the time was really invested into it. And what's kind of the religion in in in Asia, the shared kind of, it's the Buddha, right everyone kind of thinks of the Buddha as kind of India, kind of Thailand, kind of China, kind of Korea, a little bit Japan. So I was like, okay, BasketballBuddha.com. Nick Bedard 10:58 So I reached out to a a high school friend of mine who is in you know, graphics design and said hey, I need a logo. This is what I'm thinking. Actually my logo is based off a photo of Jamil or Jamal McGee. I think it's Jamil McGee. Brian Schoenborn 11:15 JaVale? Nick Bedard 11:15 Plays for the Lakers, JaVale McGee Yeah. And he jumped up while he was in China or something and did this kind of Buddha pose and I was like wait is if you look at my if you look at my logo basketballbuddha.com and you look at you know, Google search Javale McGee jumping Buddhist stance, you'll see where I got kind of my my my idea from so you know I was really at the drawing table researching a lot, what angle, but but I had everything kind of figured out here. Now I needed really, to figure out the itinerary part of it. Nick Bedard 11:51 Okay, so so I've got a few bucks saved up from my job. got about two-three grand. How do I turn? You know, how do I do? turn this into, you know, covering a whole season. Brian Schoenborn 12:04 Mm hmm. Nick Bedard 12:05 I looked at China, I said, Well, you know, it's a big country, the teams are scattered all across the the country. And if I wanted to travel from from A to B to Z, that's going to cost a lot. It's gonna take a lot of time, it's gonna take a lot of resources that I don't really have at the moment. So so so China was, while China was where all the action was, I couldn't really do it at the time. It just didn't make sense. Okay? Nick Bedard 12:31 So I looked at Japan and Japan, right. It's kind of expensive over there. Right? So the third option is, is there a basketball league in Korea? Well, I knew nothing about Korea, absolutely nothing. So I was like, Okay, well, what's going on over here and then and then Gangnam Style came out. Psy, remember that? Brian Schoenborn 12:52 Yep. Nick Bedard 12:52 And that blew up. So I was like, oh, there's something going on over there. Has nothing to do with basketball, but there's a league and it's close enough to China that I can kind of be awake during the Chinese games and watch them and cover them. So I was like okay, a real pass a real pass for for Korea cost 300 bucks and you could travel for like six months unlimited. You know you could stay in these these motels. They call them love motels. So oftentimes, you know, someone I flew there, I checked into this motel with like, a heart shaped jacuzzi. I was like, this is not bad for 40 bucks, you know? I could take this. And then I traveled to another one where it was like m&m themed like M&M wallpaper and like not Eminem the rapper, but like the the candy. Brian Schoenborn 13:42 Candies, yeah. Nick Bedard 13:45 These are really interesting. Brian Schoenborn 13:46 So there's like all sorts of themed hotels in Korea? Nick Bedard 13:51 They call them love. They called love motels. Brian Schoenborn 13:53 So why don't you explain to the listeners what a love motel is? Nick Bedard 13:57 I had no idea what it was. I just booked these on booking.com there's a cheap motel, my own room with Wi Fi. I was like, okay, that's pretty cool. Like I was thinking about doing the hostel thing, but I didn't want to be interrupted. I was really serious about kind of staying up all night and writing to go and back and bring the photos, bring on my notes and do some editing and do some brainstorming and write articles. So that's that's the reason so when I flew to Korea, and I landed I went to check in and that's the one in Seoul where it had the heart shape jacuzzi. Now so I go, Okay, this is pretty cool. I could dig this. I could dig this a couple condoms there and I'm like, Alright, well I kind of know what this is for. It's probably for young lovers looking. Brian Schoenborn 14:39 This is amazing. Nick Bedard 14:40 Yeah. But there was a huge like 55 inch flatscreen LG TV I was like whoa man. It surprised me that I didn't come out of the wall because this place is like LED lights and stuff. It was really like a is like that. It was like a red dim light. Pretty cool whatever man like. Yeah, so. So that's that's kind of what brought me to Asia in the first place. And that's what made me choose Korea as my starter point. Brian Schoenborn 15:12 Interesting. So how long? How long are you in Korea? Where were you were in Seoul? Nick Bedard 15:17 Well, I was in Seoul to start. So I spent a weekend salted, gather my stuff, get over the jetlag. And then the season was about to begin. Now I had no media credentials. I was writing a couple articles about Tracy McGrady signing with a Chinese basketball shoe brand. I was writing a couple articles that like Dwayne Wade was in a cell phone commercial in China, just anything to get my website going. It wasn't anything relevant but you know, just so I had something to add on to and and when I got to Seoul, the league started in a week now it's a six month League, so I plan to be there for six months. Brian Schoenborn 15:57 Right. Nick Bedard 15:57 And in that time, I was to travel Using my rail pass that I paid 300 bucks for it's a company called KTX and it's kind of like Amtrak where it'll take you anywhere but you but with this with this rail pass that's only accessible to foreigners you can travel the the entire you know country within six months it was perfect. Brian Schoenborn 16:19 Really? Nick Bedard 16:19 $300 Rail Pass unlimited unlimited it's like a monthly membership to the yeah and it's to kind of it's subsidized for foreigners so that you could explore the country a little bit. Brian Schoenborn 16:31 Encourage tourism and stuff like that? Sure. Nick Bedard 16:33 So that's what I took advantage of that. And and as the season started, I covered a game and soul now I was sitting I was sitting courtside because courtside seats were super cheap. It was like 25 bucks 525 to 30 bucks. And and these are big like arenas like we have like it's not the Staples Center or it or Madison Square Garden. We were talking about it is kind of like a glorified high school gym where there's about 5000 fans, you know, with a bunch of mascots and a lot of cheerleaders, you know? Kpop Kpop is big over there. So they integrated that with the cheerleaders and so on. Brian Schoenborn 17:12 So I've never been to a Korean basketball game, but I was in, I spent some time in Busan I went to a baseball game there. It was right was the Lotte Giants. It was funny like it was. The stadium was about half full. And everybody was seated behind the home team's dugout. Nick Bedard 17:32 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 17:33 And the reason why… Nick Bedard 17:34 and on top of the dugout… Brian Schoenborn 17:36 top of the dugout, we're like, between three and five just absolutely gorgeous cheerleaders standing on top, they've got their own cheer for every single batter every single player they've got their own. They've got their own fucking moves. Get all these horny baseball fans like what are you there for? Are you watching the game or are you enjoying the scenery? Nick Bedard 17:57 Exactly, no, it's it had very little to do with the game but a lot to do with the entertainment that's, that's between between batters or between plays or during a timeout or something. So, you know, we have the mascot flying out of a cannon going to do a dunk and stuff. And they have, you know, the mascot, you know, kind of like dancing like Kpop stars. Right so so No, it was really interesting when I first got there now I wasn't I didn't have any media credentials. So I was just kind of documenting stuff from courtside. I had a camera I was taking photos. So I wasn't doing any interviews or anything. I was just my my angle was what's it like watching a bath professional basketball game in South Korea? That's where my base base was. Nick Bedard 18:48 So in Seoul, it's like this. In almost Ousan. It's like this in Jeungju. It's like this in Busan. It's like this. So a little bit of time. different experiences from different cities that that hosts a professional basketball teams in South Korea. And in tracking all my audience with Google Analytics, you know, working in the advertising firm as a copywriter, I got to know these tools a little bit. I got to know what keywords mean and stuff like that. So I was tracking this. And I was seeing Okay, where's the audience coming from and a lot of it was Korean Americans, specifically Korean Americans who were playing ball and were interested in the NBA but also wanted some ties to back home. Brian Schoenborn 19:34 Hmm. Nick Bedard 19:35 Another angle. And I'm kind of going ahead of myself here. But another angle I saw was a lot of college, college basketball fans who are following guys who weren't drafted in the NBA but signed in a foreign country, whether it be Spain, whether it be Greece or whether it be South Korea, they wanted some news about the guy who played out at New Mexico State University or San Diego State University, and they want to know what he's doing now because he was lighting it up at their school. So those are kind of the two angles that I saw early. And I kind of pushed my my content towards that the early adopters. Brian Schoenborn 20:16 Was that before the D league really got going, or the G league or whatever it's called, or? Nick Bedard 20:21 It was the D league at the time, and the D league was still there. But you don't make as much money as you do playing professional ball in the D League, as you do in South Korea. So in a D League, you might make 50 grand a year. Back then it was probably 35-40. You don't make a lot. In in Korea for an entire season. You're banking 250 K to 400 K. Brian Schoenborn 20:48 Oh, wow. Nick Bedard 20:49 You know, so it's a big difference. Mind you. The idea of transitioning your professional career from the D league to the NBA is much more appealing. Because you're there, you're playing for the farm team. But if you're just committed for the money, perhaps you're going to go play somewhere else and give up that kind of NBA dream because not a lot of players, go play in China or go play in Korea, and then go to the NBA. Does that mean it's never happened? No, it's happened Sure, depending on the age and and so on. But once you kind of leave America and go play ball, pro ball somewhere else out of college, and you're not drafted, your chances of making the NBA are pretty slim. Brian Schoenborn 21:33 Yeah. So you don't really hear too much about it. Unless maybe Spain like the Spain League, might be a couple like, you know Nick Bedard 21:40 or the D league, or the D, if you're willing to grind it out. And and and, and collect that 50 K a year. And just and just, you know, travel on buses and stay at the motel six and, and and the rigorous life of you know, it's kind of like the opening band for you know, the lead act, right? You're not a star, but you're the opener and maybe if you get enough audience, you could be the star, you know. But but it's, it's, it's a journey It is so so a lot of players will give up that destination of NBA and follow the money. And the money really is in China. It really is in Korea. It's in Japan. And the cost of living is lower. As you know, you lived in China, so the cost of living is lower. Brian Schoenborn 22:28 The dollar goes a lot further over there. Nick Bedard 22:31 Exactly. Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 22:32 What are some? Cuz I mean, sighs I mean, I've been to Korea twice, but I've only spent maybe, like, totally, like two weeks there. What are I mean, so as you're traveling around to these different cities, you know, what are some of the things that kind of stood out to you? You know, do you have any, like, you got some good stories of something that like, you know, maybe you're trying to get someplace and just something really surprised you or you struggle with something like I know you got some I see you nodding. Nick Bedard 23:00 It was really interesting for me because I didn't really have a job, right? So during the day during the day, I wasn't really going to work. I wasn't going to an office, my work really started at like 6pm on game day. So during the day, I'd kind of go out and go around. But there are a lot of old people in South Korea, you know, because that's what I saw. I was I was like, like, during the there during the day, everyone's in work or in school. So I was kind of hanging out with the older people. I would go to grab a coffee or something. It's a bunch of old people just shooting the shit or something like that. Or if I was going to the mall is trying to go shopping a lot of old people, so I didn't really have that kind of the same experience as somebody who kind of works there and lives there and so on. Nick Bedard 23:46 I guess my first impressions it were it's really hilly, there's a lot of mountains, not, not big mountains, but it's not as flat as Toronto. Brian Schoenborn 23:56 Hmm. Nick Bedard 23:57 In California. You guys have a lot of mountains and hills and so on. So it's probably different for someone from that perspective, but I saw a lot of mountain I thought that was pretty cool. The cities are kind of built on mountains. Yeah, that was pretty cool. Busan was really nice. Brian Schoenborn 24:14 Busan's cool, yeah. Nick Bedard 24:15 One thing one thing that really popped off about Korea is their advancement in technology. Their Wi Fi was everywhere you're always connected. Televisions, it was state of the art um you know you go to you go to have noodles at some you know dive noodle bar and they'll be like a 65 inch like flat screen TV with like high definition and the place is pumping with surround sound. They they really take pride in their technology and you know the the the transportation system in Seoul is fantastic. And it's it's got TVs in it and stuff like the tech is is awesome. They were really advanced in technology. Brian Schoenborn 24:59 That's Samsung for ya, huh? You know, I wonder, instead of talking about the old people, I just talk about these old people it just reminds me of being in Beijing you know, you see these usually right about the time dusk starts to happen when it just starts getting dark. At almost every city corner, sidewalk corner, you see just like dozens of old like, grandmother's dancing, we call them the dancing grannies. They're everywhere. Is there anything like that, that you saw over there? Nick Bedard 25:30 Yeah, a lot but they do it indoors. They don't have these kinds of more. I mean, they do it outside but not as much as China. They have these like bars that are like like these nightclubs that are just for old people like old people. swingers type deal. Brian Schoenborn 25:44 What? Nick Bedard 25:44 Yeah, there's like 65 and up swingers Come on in. Brian Schoenborn 25:49 Oh, come on! Nick Bedard 25:51 And I mistakenly, mistakenly popped into one of those thinking, oh this space is happening you know? Brian Schoenborn 26:01 Y'all try to get with one of them like, Hey, what's up, girl? What's your name is? Nick Bedard 26:04 Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. No, no, but no, it was a really good experience. So So I played out I was there for six months. And within that six months, I my website was getting a little bit of traction. It was it was getting more popular. I started with getting into AdSense, which for people who don't know what AdSense is, you know, those annoying banners on media sites? So those banners are there from from AdSense. So essentially a brand will try to run display advertising on new sites. And we as new sites would allow those banners to run across our our website. So that's a sense of revenue. So I thought okay, I've got 10 million uniques…uh 10,000 uniques per month at the time when I started I could kind of monetize. So I started doing that. Nick Bedard 27:04 And then some of the foreigners, I was I was seeing when I was back in Seoul and kind of I kind of knew where they would go hang out in a place called like Itaewon, which is where the military bases. So so I kind of see those basketball players. I'm like, Hey, I'm the basketball Buddha guy. And they're like, Who are you? I'm, I'm covering the league, right? So introducing I'd love to, you know, is so big that I go hit me up after a game one time and I'll give you Yeah, so cool. So I kind of started being like a social butterfly and really involved in the league. And that was really cool. It was a great experience six months. So I had my sight. I had my side going, come the offseason. I had no reason to stay there. So So I came back to to Toronto to kind of regroup. Say, okay, what's next? Maybe I'll go back next year. But I was quickly called, I was quickly called by somebody that I met at the game. So sitting so somebody had passed on my website to the vice commissioner of the league, who had two kids studying in, in Canada. So look, I love what you're doing. Nick Bedard 28:25 After seeing what you've reported, I think it's great for the league to come back next year. We'll grant your full media access. We'll have a media card for you. We want you to keep covering the league. We don't know what your plans are right now. But we'd love that in the back next year. If you want to do it again. Nick Bedard 28:41 Great. Awesome. So, so I kept myself busy. You know, I went back to that that, you know, copywriting job, which which sucked because, you know, I knew I was leaving within, in like eight months, right? But I hey give me another chance? And they did. So so. So then that flew by and I was still covering offseason stuff where NBA players would travel to China or travel to Korea. And I was I knew where to get my new sources from now. So you know, Korea has their own Korean language, basketball forums were they and it was as easy as me just copy pasting the article, putting it into translator taking words out and taking the kind of story out and kind of writing it in my own style. I was doing that for Korean news. And I was doing that for Chinese basketball news. So you could call it plagiarism. Fine. Yeah. And at the time, at the time, no one was doing it. Now everyone's just spinning articles all over the place right now you're seeing you know, the same article rewritten 100 million different ways but at the time, it was very, very new. So I yeah, I I was doing that and that kept the website going. For for the offseason, come next come next season I was back in Korea. This time I had immediate pass. I was talking to the journalists that were in Korea. They knew who I was. They're like, yeah, cool. I made really good connections there, which and then I had access to the players. I had more access to the coaches and so on. And I spoke a little bit of Korean, not much, but I'm spoken enough to get by enough. Nick Bedard 30:26 And and they were looking for writers and and the guy who was you know, covering sports for China Daily, also a Canadian, said hey, why don't you come on over. We've got we've always got spots available for journalists. I'll put you in contact. I said great. Didn't think too much of it but two months later, I you know, I got a chance. They said yeah, we want we want you to come over and interview and so on. So that's that's that's kind of where, and I didn't talk too much about the Asian Olympics is a great experience. It was a daunting, daunting work schedule. I mean, all day from 10am to 10pm just covering hoops, which I love. But my god was that tiring because after covering, you have to go back to editing. And you can be up to two in the morning and then you do it all over again for 10 days. Nick Bedard 30:26 So that come and timing is everything here. The Asian Olympics, which in Canada is kind of equivalent to the Pan American Games. Have you heard of that? Yep. The Asian Olympics came around, and I was hired by the Asian Olympic Committee to cover the basketball nice, which was crits as though they found me they contacted me. They said we know we do. We love what you're doing with Asian basketball. You're the perfect fit for this role. We're trying to find one journalist to cover for our website for each sport. And we'd like you to be that guy. It wasn't high paying it. They put me in media, they put me in media village. It was super cool. It was great experience. From there, I met a lot of journalists from China from Japan and so on. And that is where I was I got a connection to China Daily which is in Beijing. Brian Schoenborn 32:12 Yep. Nick Bedard 32:12 Right? Brian Schoenborn 32:13 You know what's crazy about all that is I mean, you're telling the story and it's just it's amazing to me how like, you know, you want to do something, right? You want to be you want to be a journalist, you want to cover basketball, like, you know, like, deep down in your heart. This is what you want to do. And regardless of whether you've got credentials, or whatever else, you're like, Fuck this. I'm doing it. I'm like, I'm not gonna let anybody stop me. Right? Nick Bedard 32:38 Absolutely. Brian Schoenborn 32:39 And you fucking did it your own little gorilla, gorilla journalism style. Nick Bedard 32:44 Speaking of which, speaking of which, this is where everything kind of comes together. So after this grind of covering Korean Basketball League for a year from from from courtside. To the grind of covering another year from press row to the grind of covering the Asian Olympics. That's where I met the NBA Korea writer. So the the guy who's in charge of NBA Korea, all content, NBA Korea, NBAkorea.com, something like that. He said, Well, I also do a magazine here in South Korea, and we cover NBA, it's an NBA magazine in Korean. We would like you to do, we would like you to come on as a columnist to write an opinion piece for every month, every edition, and we will grant you NBA media credentials. Brian Schoenborn 33:38 Awesome. Nick Bedard 33:39 So that's where and then it was like, wow, two years. Everything just it happened. You know, some people would wait 10 years, 15 years, get coffee for that guy, plug this printer in, and kind of work their way up the ranks and in a newspaper, but in two years, I finally had NBA credentials, due to the guy who saw the work I was doing at the Asian game said I'm an NBA writer. I know you're friends with this guy who's who's covering the Korean Basketball League. We would like some sort of partnership here. And and it was awesome, man. I was like, great. So I kept, so I did a monthly column for them. And if ever I was going back to Toronto, I had my NBA press card and I could go interview players on the Toronto Raptors or the visiting team. Nick Bedard 34:28 So I remember one time. The first time I was an NBA journalist with my press card, I got the email saying yep you're on the list. You're back in Toronto. There's your press. I was doing a story from a on a on a bench player like the 12th Man of the Toronto Raptors. And he played in the Korean Basketball League for a year. So there's kind of a connection there. And that was where my kind of opinion piece came was, was, uh, okay. What was it like playing in South Korean what's it like playing in the NBA? And and what are the main differences? I could say it from a journalist perspective, but not many people could say it as a player's perspective. Brian Schoenborn 35:10 Right. Nick Bedard 35:11 Right? So it was really interesting to to get into the locker room interview a Greg Stiesman, and who I believe went to Nebraska or Wisconsin. But anyways, that that was kind of my first experience as an NBA journalist. So in two years, this kind of crazy plan that was kind of formulated from blogs with balls, which was the bloggers conference that I went to. And two years later, I'm an NBA journalist, so it was really a dream come true is of huge accomplishment. Brian Schoenborn 35:45 Wow. That's awesome, dude. I just again, it's that it's that hustle dude is that you know, the guerrilla warfare style. You know, I'm gonna I'm going to bob and weave and go places where you don't think you're going to be seen and just Shit opens up, dude, that's crazy. Um, so you met you mentioned that you that you got that call from China Daily. So, for those of you that are not familiar, China Daily is they have Chinese news, but they have English news as well, but it's a really big English news outlet in China, it's a giant Chinese propaganda machine, if you will. So what was the like, you know, when you went from Korea to Beijing, like what was you know, what was, first, I mean, first, what was it like in being a propagandist for the, for the powers that be? Because journalism is different in China. It's, you know, like in America, for example, free speech and all that it's, you know, it's, it's finding facts or, you know, sharing your opinion or whatever it is, you know, calling the government out or whatever else the case may be. In China, it's more like the from my Understanding more like the official mouthpiece of the government. Nick Bedard 37:04 Right and and there are a few different outlets that are the mouthpiece of the government. Aljazeera is kind of, you know, Qatar's version of that rt.com is, you know, Putin's version of that if you want you know, NPR is kind of kind of the mouthpiece of the US, but it's it's not totally funded by the government. They take donations and so on. I think they do a really good job with their content but nevertheless, they're they're a wing of the so on. Now, some some are more extreme like rt.com or and in China, every single media outlet is the mouthpiece of, of the government right there. There isn't an independently own news outlet. But you know, I didn't I didn't really look at that angle at the time. Nick Bedard 37:57 For me what it was, is Wow, a journalism, you know, a journalism grad who started as a blogger. And now I'm working for one of the most, you know, the, the highest, you know, delivered paper in the world, a publication wise their numbers are through the roof because the reach is just so huge, right? I didn't look at it as you know, the official mouthpiece or a propaganda thing. I was thinking, wow, I'm officially a journalist. Now, I'm not I'm not a blogger, not a magazine opinion piece. I am a journalist. And I wasn't a sports journalist, they actually threw me on culture. They threw me on culture. So I was like, okay, no, that's cool. I'm a writer, as a writer, a journalist is journalist. I could still do basketball Buddha on the side. Brian Schoenborn 38:45 Huh. Nick Bedard 38:46 I'm in China now. And I could use kind of my journalism credentials from China Daily to have access to the CBA the Chinese Basketball Association, right. And at the time, Stephon Marbury was there highly popular. So you want to talk about like traffic and clicks to your website. Stephon Marbury is a God for that. He will get you clicks galore because the type of stuff that he does in China is like what? He's got a statue outside outside the Wukesong arena, which is the home arena of the Beijing ducks. So this guy Brian Schoenborn 39:26 I wanna talk about Marbury for a second because you know he's an he's an interesting he's got an interesting story, right? Like he had his career in the NBA and he was a perennial All Star right like he was. He was a stud wasn't you know, it wasn't a goat. Right? But like he was a legitimate star. NBA lockout happened Nick Bedard 39:47 at one point in time, Brian, sorry to cut you off. But he was he was the the scoring champ of the NBA. Nobody in the NBA scored more than Marbury. He was a perennial, all star. Brian Schoenborn 40:02 Yep. Nick Bedard 40:03 He was in Brooklyn, Brooklyn's kid type thing, right? You know, from the big market of New York and they've got their basketball superstar, right. I was covering the Beijing Ducks. I started and I gotta thank Diane from InFront because she she worked hard to get me that press credential. Getting press credentials for anything in China is very difficult. You know, you've got to be vetted, you've got a promise to you know, only write good things type thing, but she kind of worked the sports and InFront is like the branding firm of the CBA. Like a lot of brands in America will have their marketing agency. So I guess InFront was kind of their marketing agency and that's how I got, you know, shoved into the meat is because they they also decided who gets press credentials and so on. So she got me in and she was really cool. Nick Bedard 41:06 I was covering the Chinese Basketball League only in Beijing. I wasn't traveling because I was working full time and after work, I'd go to the games on a Monday on a Tuesday or Thursday night. At first, Marbury wanted nothing to do with me. Absolutely nothing to do with me. I thought, Hey, he's going to see another foreigner. This is going to be awesome. I say I'm going to be able to because I've been able to relate with other foreigners in Korea easily. Brian Schoenborn 41:38 Yeah. Nick Bedard 41:38 They've always wanted to talk to me. Marbury is gonna be this same. He just a cold shoulder. Nothing to do with me. It was very difficult to get him to say anything and it's lasted for like half the season. And I couldn't go like hey, Dianne. He doesn't want to talk to me. Why couldn't go Hey, coach. Why is it? No, at the end of the day, it's his own decision. He doesn't want to talk to you, he doesn't want to talk to you. I, he, I have nothing against him. He had nothing. He didn't know me. I didn't know him. He just didn't want to talk to me. So I was like, I was like, Okay, I'm going to cover the other guy, which is Randolph Morris, and we're going to kind of kick it off there. And maybe Marbury will come in. Yes. I found out that there has been major negative press on Marbury from the United States. Okay. And there's been absolutely great press from Marbury in China. Brian Schoenborn 42:35 Yep. Nick Bedard 42:36 So who is he gonna want to talk to the guy who looks American or the guy who looks Chinese? Brian Schoenborn 42:40 Right. Nick Bedard 42:41 He's not gonna want to talk to me because he thinks I'm there to write another stupid, you know, Marbury piece. No, it forgot about it. He doesn't want to go into those waters. So half a year. I'm talking to Morris. I'm covering the games. Finally I come out with a Marbury piece. Okay, I got Morris talking about him. Got Sun Yue, who played with Kobe Bryant and the Lakers, got a ring. I got Sun Yue way talking about them. I've got enough understanding of what Marbury is like on the basketball court to really have a basketball story about Marbury without any of the stuff off the court that he's doing in Beijing. I didn't want to I didn't want to go into that. I just wanted to cover his abilities as a professional basketball player, and what he's like as a teammate. Brian Schoenborn 43:26 Mm hmm. Nick Bedard 43:26 Once that story came out, the very next practice, Hey, man, love the story. Who are you? Working for who and so then I said, hey look man, I'm just this guy. I got this website. I'm doing this. All right, respect, respect, respect. And then and then he still didn't he still kind of hesitant to talk to me, but he had he had like a trainer there from Germany, that was just Marbury's trainer, and you take care of his body and so on. And so so he got close to me. So I kind of slow it wasn't until playoff time that I could really go up to Marbury after a game and ask him any question. Brian Schoenborn 44:05 Hmm That's crazy. Yeah, he got shit on man. He got shit on pretty hard towards the end of his NBA career. And then but then he came back you know in China man I mean he you know, he won what three titles in four years I think with Beijing Ducks? That's that's why they got a statue. I mean, he's he's like a Kobe rest in peace or, or Jordan or whatever over in China, man. It's crazy. He's like, China's fucking number one foreign son basically. Like, Nick Bedard 44:33 let me tell you some about Marbury Brian Schoenborn 44:35 Wasn't he like the first to get a green card or something right. Nick Bedard 44:37 He took care of his body number one. Brian Schoenborn 44:39 Yeah. Nick Bedard 44:40 Really took care of his body. Okay, and the any CBA the Chinese Basketball Association season is not the 82 season of NBA. They're playing 40 games. So it's cut in half. Okay. He understood as a point guard understood the game enough that he knew exactly when to get his teammates involved and when to just take it to the rack and and and he would do the ladder a lot. He knew he could beat anybody in that league and he was fearless in in driving and just finishing up the hoop or getting fouls or so on. wasn't the best shooter. But he didn't need to be. He was such a good floor general that it was amazing. Like his crossover, his his speed his his stop and starts. It was just amazing to see and there were a lot of other foreign point guards that came in, but they couldn't handle the strength, the stop and starts, the willingness to go the hoop. A lot of the foreign point guards on time were just bombing threes. Nick Bedard 45:48 Right? Bombing threes, bombing threes. But Marbury was like relentless. He'll go right down and just like he'll knee you in the heart before laying it up and he'll get the call. Yeah, he was just fearless. And it was it it was a really cool playing style. And I thought to myself, well, how long can this last, you know, as he's getting older, but he was so good at taking care of his body and he had this that trainer from Germany, who was so good at kind of, you know, getting his body, you know, ready for the next game or ready in the offseason, he was always in fantastic shape. And he was just super smart. So So that's, that's where that's where he had his success on the floor. Everything outside of that was kind of played off his success on the floor. Right? What's the successful basketball player in China doing outside? Well, I mean, he can be doing anything. And they'll be like, yeah, that's awesome. So So finally, I remember going to Blue Frog, which is kind of the In-n-Out of Beijing. Brian Schoenborn 45:48 Uh huh. Brian Schoenborn 46:47 Oh, Blue Frog! That's right. Nick Bedard 46:50 Yeah, yeah, since I went there. Brian Schoenborn 46:51 So those are those are actually it's hard to find good Western food in China. Those are some decent, let's decent burgers right there. And there. Huge like, I mean, those patties are what like two three inches to like, you know, five centimeters thick? Something like that. They're huge. Yeah, the place is great. Nick Bedard 47:08 So Marbury and and the other foreign player who was living there at the time, Randolph Morris, was hurt. So they brought in Damien Wilkins, who is Dominique Wilkins, his nephew. Brian Schoenborn 47:21 Okay. Nick Bedard 47:22 Right. So so I was doing an interview with Damien. He was super, you know, open. He said, Yeah, come on over. This is where I live. You come over to my condo. And he was in Wangfujing. Right. So so they went they were in the Oriental Hotel in Wangfujing. They had it was like a hotel that they were in suites, kitchenettes and everything. So I did an interview with Damien Wilkins there. And afterwards, the translator from Marbury, who is kind of Marbury's agent as well in China came in and he was kind of taking care of Damien at the time as well. He said, Hey, we're all going to Blue Frog you want to join us? So that was like kind of my first real outside of basketball interaction with Marbury. So we're driving there. And I gotta tell you, Brian, I totally choked. I wasn't prepared. I didn't know what to say. So I said nothing. I just ate my burger. And I didn't want to talk to him. I just let them have their thing. And I was a silent observer. I was gonna write an article about it but I had nothing, right, because I didn't do anything. I just I totally choked. I totally choked. Brian Schoenborn 48:33 Oh, you got starstruck. I get it. Nick Bedard 48:37 absolutely. Brian Schoenborn 48:38 That's funny. I, I found for me, I found that the best way to keep me from getting starstruck is well, one is just treat everybody like they're people. Right? But like, secondly is do as little research as possible and whoever these people are. So I can just fucking ask them any sort of bullshit question, and if they look at me like I'm dumb. I'm like, I don't know you're just a guy. Nick Bedard 49:02 I was so used to the mass preparation, what's the angle going to be for this interview? What's the angle going to be for this job? After the game, what questions am I going to ask? That, that when I when I didn't have any preparation, I didn't know how to kind of approach it. And I didn't want to do anything. I don't want to ask anything that was like outside of the line. So we just hung out. And afterwards, we used to go out drinking at like Elements and stuff like that, like I found out Marbury was was just a regular laowai, which is the Chinese word for foreigner, just like you and I. Like, he likes going out and having a good time and stuff like that. And he is a pretty cool dude. Brian Schoenborn 49:41 Yeah, people are people, man. At the end of the day. I mean, you know, everyone's pretty much the same. People do different things. They've got different ways of going about things, but they've all got the same basic needs, right? They want to, you know, take care of the family, have fun, and maybe make a better life for themselves. Right. So Yeah, it's uh that's cool man so you'd go out with Marbury quite a bit. Did that relationship with him and like and like you know understanding that level of dedication and physical fitness and stuff, like did that kind of lead you towards the boxing scene or what happened there? How did that work? Because you because you kind of shot up out of nowhere you went from nowhere to like the box to the Beijing city champ, dude. Nick Bedard 50:26 After that season, the first season CBA in China, I was done with a contract that China Daily I got an offer to do radio, which I was super excited about because I've always been a podcast fan. And I took that opportunity, you know, it more money. It was. I was I was, and this is how I met you because my job was to be a field reporter. I had a segment called Nick on the Streets. Brian Schoenborn 50:53 Oh yeah, Nick on the Streets, baby. I remember that show. Nick Bedard 50:57 So so the job title the description was Hey, We just want you to go and export culture in Beijing and get a foreigners perspective on it. And I totally twisted it and turn it into its Nick on the streets and say, Hey, I'm over here in a Wangfujing with my friend Brian, who's, you know, a former Marine in the United States and Trump is president. And we're going to ask him about that and pretend like there's a bunch of stuff going on behind us and like, you know, because it's a radio, right? It's theater of the mind. So there's so it's like, it's just you and I standing in a parking lot. Brian Schoenborn 51:37 That was when Trump visited China, right. Like, Nick Bedard 51:39 that was when Trump visited China's to Trump hadn't recently been elected. It was his first state trip to China. And and we were talking about and you know, who better to have on then a then a former Marine. So that's, that's when you made your appearance on Nick on the Streets. Brian Schoenborn 51:56 That's right. Nick Bedard 51:56 So I had that segment. I was I was finding Different things from Monday to Friday to go, which was a grind because you know, we're going to talk about it. Like I said, I just had to find events going on and just push my way inside of it and say, Hey, I'm here. And this is who I'm talking to. And this is what's going on. And is my 10 minutes up yet? Oh my god, it is back to you in the studio. It was awesome. I loved it. It was so i'd record that, I'd edit it, I'd run it back to the studio just in time for the five o'clock show. Brian Schoenborn 52:34 I was trying to remember if when I interviewed with you on your show, if it was about the Trump thing, or if it was about the sports stuff. Nick Bedard 52:42 We did a few different ones. I believe there were two or three of them. I did but it was always a different topic. That's what I liked about the what I did is I always talked about something fresh, something new. Brian Schoenborn 52:52 Yep. Remember when I did the you know, so did that Manchester produce that manchester united and arsenal. Sorry, Manchester United Liverpool event in Melbourne, right? Nick Bedard 53:07 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 53:07 I remember. Remember you ever were hanging out, dude. It was me, you and Tyler, another friend of ours. And I got this call this guy that I've met when I was working for this media company in Beijing. And he's from like Australia, but he's i don't i don't even know his last name. But his name is costar. And he calls me He's like, Hey, he's like, mate. He's like, I'm in Beijing. I'm in a hotel. I'm just come hang out. And I'm like, eyy creeped out about it. And I'm like, Dude, it's, it's me and like two other dudes like, yeah, just bring them all over. We'll hang out. We'll have drinks. I'm like, like, Dude, why you just come to a bar with us? He's like, Nah, mate. Like, just come on. Remember as I'll skeeved out about it. But so Nick Bedard 53:51 I do. Brian Schoenborn 53:51 We took the risk anyways, and we went and Nick Bedard 53:54 he was he staying at the Intercontinental? Brian Schoenborn 53:56 I think so. Yeah, but it was in the suite, like the Presidential Suite. That was like What the hell's this guy doing? Nick Bedard 54:01 I think he was in the penthouse. Yeah, it was like a Malaysian businessman. Brian Schoenborn 54:06 But he's from Australia, but he's like, Malaysia or Cambodia, I don't know, somewhere in Southeast Asia. And we all get together. And he found out that uh, the years that you do sports journalism and that Tyler had done some stuff related to like tennis and so other stuff. And he's like oh he's like, he's like, Hey, you guys want to talk about this event? Put on this show? And me being the entrepreneur trying to figure out what the hell my path was, at that point. Nothing to do with sports. I was like fuck it. Let's do it. Nick Bedard 54:42 I remember that. I remember that. Brian Schoenborn 54:48 I couldn't remember if that if the interviews were done. I think we might have done interviews for both of them. Actually. I think we might have but I just I just remembered dude, that was. Nick Bedard 55:00 Did I interview costar that night? Brian Schoenborn 55:04 I don't know You should have. Nick Bedard 55:06 I think I might, I think I think we're all just drinking and I'm like, we should do an interview right now. And I think I'm here with costar who's running this thing. And that is I used it for Monday's segment. Yes. Nick Bedard 55:25 So you see, you see how great this job was. I mean, you want to talk about like opportunity. You can really solidify yourself as anything there. Like there are a lot of foreigners who like starring in movies in China. There are a lot of foreigners who are spokespersons of companies they know nothing about. I was like, I was like, you know, on the fly, just interviewing anybody and turning it into a segment for a radio show. Brian Schoenborn 55:50 That's crazy. That's crazy, dude. You know, so how did all of that lead into your boxing career because that's that's what I want to talk about. Nick Bedard 56:00 So, you know, in high school, I was really into sports. I, I'm a very athletic person naturally, I'm pretty good at any sport that, you know, you throw my way I could kind of figure it out quickly, I've got kind of that natural gift. Like, I'm not a star at any of them, but I do I could keep up with you know, any. So, basketball is is very, you know, often played in China, like casually or socially, but it's pretty rough, man. Like if you do a layup on a Chinese guy who might elbow you in the face or like push you It's like they're pretty dirty over there when it comes to like street ball and stuff and they'll say, hey, street ball, man, like Yeah, but you can't, can't shove me into the backboard, man. You know, like, you know, so so as I was like, I was like, Okay, well, maybe like it's tough to find a game. It's tough to you know, you'll be really competitive. I played in a couple leagues with a guy against different foreigners, but I just wasn't getting my you know, athletic itch. Okay, what else could I do? I'd love to golf. But golf is really expensive to China. And there aren't really there aren't much screen golf for driving ranges anywhere because land is so hard to come by. So, man, I don't know. Nick Bedard 57:19 And you remember the guy of China Daily sports writer who actually got me the job? Well he was he's actually like in the Canadian boxing journalist Hall of Fame. And he's written he's written books about like Canadian heavyweights and stuff like that. So, so during my breaks, at like China Daily, I'd go down and he's always smoking a cigar at like, at like the restaurant downstairs on the patio, and he would just tell me stories about boxing. It was pretty cool, man, it's pretty cool. And then I got into it a little bit of sort of watching it. I was like, You know what, I'm gonna join the boxing gym, what the heck? And the guy's like you should man you should like, go for it. Go for it. Now. You wanted to be my trainer and stuff like that. Nick Bedard 58:02 So you know, okay, I'll go to a gym. I get involved in boxing. So I saw so I hired a Filipino boxing coach who's a lot like Manny Pacquiao. I didn't, I didn't even know how to throw punch. I was like, how do I get what's a jab? No. But But, you know, like I said, the the athletic itch or the the natural ability in three months, I kind of figured it out. I was like, moving around and stuff and like slipping jabs and slipping punches and throwing combinations. The guy was like, Whoa, like, you want to compete in this little like, white collar competition they've got going? I'm like, Fuck, yeah. Man, like, throw me in there. At this point. I'm sparring with you. So I don't mind you know, let's do it. Yeah, I'm pumped, right? Nick Bedard 58:48 So I'm going back to China Daily and say, Hey, you know, I'm gonna join this like white collar guy, my first match and so on. And the guy's like, yeah, yeah, do it. Do it. Old guy, right? This old old school boy. Boxing guy who used to like, go to Sugar Ray Leonard fights, says like he's like, yo, let's do it. So so I get this fight in this like Shuangjing Showdown, what called it it's a white collar boxing. They throw me up with this guy. I don't know who he is. I'm scared shitless I'm pumped. You know, I'm like, fuck, dude. I might get my ass kicked but whatever man, I'm, I want to compete. I want to compete. So I go, the guy from China Daily's there. He's like, I want to be your cutman. I'm like, Fuck, man. I don't know if it's three rounds two minutes now. I don't know. But yeah, sure. It's got his old Vaseline. He's got his like, Q-tips and stuff like that. He's got an extra towel. He's gotta bucket I could spit in. And everyone else has got like one trainer and like their girlfriend. Nick Bedard 59:49 I've got this like really like intense cut cut man guy who's like trying to live in his nostalgia moment. My Filipino trainer's like, hey Nick. Who is this guy? That's like like, like stitch Duran type thing, you know? Like I'll stitch you up, don't worry. Okay, so so we're boxing in 16 ounce gloves, which are like pillows. And it's and it's outside. And it's a barbecue with beers. And let's rock and roll. Nick Bedard 1:00:17 So so the first round, I'm just running around, I have no idea what I'm doing. But I could see that like, this guy is pretty slow and kind of sucks. So I try to like, like, throw punch at him. And I land, and I run away and I'm like, oh that worked. I keep running because I'm taller and faster than he is no idea what I'm doing, spinning around the circle and ding the bell rings. I'm like, Oh shit. First round's over. I survived. And so yeah, so I'm in the corner and the guy's like, like throwing water down my pants. He's like, Yeah, that'll get you pumped up and like, okay, whatever. The Filipino guys like, keep moving. Keep boxing, keep punching. I'm like, this is fucking intense. Ding. Second round starts. I'm like, all right, one with this guy like okay, he's threw punch. I get knocked in the face. I'm like, Oh shit, and I'm all cocky and stuff. So whenever I get hit, everyone's like, yeah, get him! Like whenever I hit him, they're like, oh, boo. Nick Bedard 1:01:15 We're dancing a little bit. It's kind of gets intense and we're tying up and we're punching. We're just throwing like wild punches. Ding! Second round over. Third round, I come out and I don't know why but my train, the the old the old school guy from China Daily put like Vaseline in my hair. Because he's like, hey, Roberto Duran used to do this. You look good. You look good. You'll fight good. I'm like all right. So I look like a real douchebag, you know, I've got this like hair slicked back and stuff. I could see the guy's getting tired. So it's I keep I keep going. And finally, I pin them against the corner. I just rail on his head twice. Boom, boom. His head bounces off the rope. Comes back. Another rght hand cross across the face, we're not wearing headgear. Lights out. Boom. Yeah, hits the canvas. A doctor runs in. The fight is over and I'm like, yeah!!!! Everyone's, oh my god is that guy okay? And I'm like, fuck yeah!!!!!! Nick Bedard 1:02:20 Like I it's my first fight so I don't know about like this like sportsmanship and stuff, like make sure the guy's okay first. Before we start so I'm parading around the ring. It's like and that that was the start of my boxing career. Brian Schoenborn 1:02:32 That's right. I remember I was at that fight actually. Nick Bedard 1:02:35 Yeah. So the second, the second event comes around, they put me up with a tougher opponent, and I trained my ass off. I stopped drinking, I start eating kale. I'm just like training training every day. I'm like, Yo, I'm the champ. Nobody could beat me. I'm going in like social media in China saying the champ is here and stuff like that. And I come out and just wreck this guy, cuz I overtrained. Like I was like to ready for this the guy's like, holy. I beat him within within 19 seconds they're like okay, this is a, you can't fight this guy, you're Nick, you're you're an animal. Nick Bedard 1:03:12 And that really fed my ego so so I've got this basketball thing that I'm doing. I'm training, you know, and this is I'm training when I'm not working or whatever. And then I'm working at China Daily, right? So when I worked in radio, I had more free time so I could train more. But the guy the guy from China Daily was still kind of contacting me. He's like when's your next fight champ and stuff like that. So that's then the third one comes around. And it's kind of like an off site event like a Chinese gym and they have an event. I crush the guy there. And at this point, I'm just unstoppable, right? I knocked the guy out. My third flight knocked the guy out. My first fight. Knocked the guy out my second fight, knock the guy out third fight. Who's gonna stop me? So this way, I just I everywhere I go in like the foreign community I'm calling myself the champ. Why the hell not? And you know some people hated it and some people were like running with it. Like, you were. You thought it was hilarious. I was just going into the bar and I was saying the champ is here. Brian Schoenborn 1:04:17 Haha, that's right. Nick Bedard 1:04:18 I was going up to the Chinese bartender and said the champ wants a Heineken. Brian Schoenborn 1:04:25 You didn't let it get to your head at all. Nick Bedard 1:04:28 Not at all. And you know, I like this marketing side, this journalism side. It was all about like selling the fight or so on, or selling the persona. So the last one I did, right, and this was like the sixth one. I did a couple other ones where I won, but I moved up in weight. So I moved up from welterweight to middleweight, okay? I had to like put on the pounds, and it was a slugfest, but I went in there. So it was the best middleweight that the guy had on his roster for the Shuangjing Showdown, this guy's been in multiple fights, he trains all the time. He's from Greece. So it's like okay, it's gonna be tough. It's gonna be tough so it's a little nervous, but I went in there and just like pounded and pounded and just landing, and he's trying to hold on to me, but I couldn't knock him out. I'm going up in weight class I just didn't have the power to knock him out. So I just kept bringing punches off his bald head. No offense to both people there, Brian. Brian Schoenborn 1:05:29 Thanks. Nick Bedard 1:05:30 I just kept bringing shots off his head ringing shots through his body and he wouldn't he wouldn't fall anyway I won unanimously but but that's that's what it. Yeah, that was my last fight. So I'm a two-time Shuang, two weight division, sorry. Two weight division Shuangjing Showdown champion. Brian Schoenborn 1:05:48 Maybe pound for pound I mean that's Nick Bedard 1:05:50 that's exactly what I was going dynamite dropping, Brian. Pound for pound Shuangjing showdown champion. Brian Schoenborn 1:05:56 You know, it's kind of your rise in the Boxing in the Beijing boxing circuit is meteoric, dude I remember the first time that first fight was ridiculous you didn't, you had no idea what you were doing. Nick Bedard 1:06:09 No idea what I was doing. Brian Schoenborn 1:06:10 You were running around the ring. Nick Bedard 1:06:12 I wasn't even shuffling I was literally l

Nick Bedard embraces the journey. From using guerrilla journalism tactics to get his NBA credentials, to becoming a Chinese culture reporter and 6-time Beijing city boxing champion, to returning home and attempting a start-up, he shares his stories and lessons learned along the way.

Nick Bedard embraces the journey. From using guerrilla journalism tactics to get his NBA credentials, to becoming a Chinese culture reporter and 6-time Beijing city boxing champion, to returning home and attempting a start-up, he shares his stories and lessons learned along the way.

Norman J. Liverpool IV is an entrepreneur and speaker, with a passion for spreading awareness for the LGBTQ+ community and the issues that community faces.He's also the creator of a signature mentorship and coaching program designed for that same LGBTQ+ community called Over the Top Living. Prior to accomplishing so much not only for himself, but others as well, Norman left his home in Chicago and relocated to Las Vegas in 2007, that he began his journey to finding himself. By 2008, this journey led him to the realization that he was gay. Then identifying as a gay black man, he would spend the next several years in and out of varying versions of himself. This process has spanned for over 15 years. We're here to talk quite a bit about that. Show Notes Follow Norman on Instagram | Facebook Theme music by: Ruel Morales Audio Transcript Brian Schoenborn 0:01 Hello, hello. Hey everybody. Our guest today is an entrepreneur and speaker, the passion for spreading awareness for the LGBTQ plus community and the issues that community faces. He's also the creator of a signature mentorship and coaching program designed for that same LGBTQ plus community called over the top living prior to accomplishing so much not only for himself, but others as well. Norman left his home in Chicago and relocated to Las Vegas during this time in 2007, that he began his journey to finding himself by 2008. This journey led him to the realization that he was gay. Then identifying as a gay black man, he would spend the next several years in and out of varying versions of himself. This process has spanned for over 15 years. We're here to talk quite a bit about that. Give it up for my friend, Norman J. Liverpool, the fourth. Brian Schoenborn 0:55 My name is Brian Schoenborn. I'm an explorer of people, places and culture. In my travels spanning over 20 countries across four continents, I've had the pleasure of engaging in authentic conversations with amazingly interesting people. These are their stories on location and unfiltered presented by 8B Media. This is Half the City. Brian Schoenborn 1:21 What's up, man? How you doing, Norman? Norman J. Liverpool IV 1:23 I'm good as another day in paradise, that's for sure. Brian Schoenborn 1:25 Another Day in Paradise. You are absolutely right, man. Now, I gotta tell you, man, I've so I've known you for quite some time. What is like, 10? Norman J. Liverpool IV 1:33 Yeah, we met we met back in '08. Brian Schoenborn 1:36 yeah. 2008 That's right. You know, when I first saw you talking about what you're up to now, I got…Well, I was really interested, of course, but I was also really, really impressed with how far you've come in the last, you know, 12, 12-plus years. You know, it's really inspiring, you see, to see people growing and changing like that, you know, like, like the way I see things is everyone's kind of a collection of our moments, right, where and how we respond to it. So everyone's unique, you know, 8 billion people, which is why I named my company 8B Media, and everyone's got a story and everyone's perspectives and frameworks and everything like that are all unique to their experiences. So I'm interested, if you can kind of tell me how, how you went from Northern Liverpool, coworker, to kind of to discovering that you're a black gay man, and then kind of coming into your own a bit. Norman J. Liverpool IV 2:35 Well, it started back actually in 2007, when I moved to Las Vegas from Chicago. And a huge reason that I decided to move is because my family back home were extremely religious. And I was still trying to figure out myself, I was trying to come into adulthood. And I just didn't feel like I could do that with All of these influences around me. So I got a one way ticket and came to Las Vegas in December of 2007. And I got the job at Metro right away. But then again, I was still like a baby, you know, I'm 21 years old. I didn't know up from down. I didn't know what expressing myself and living as a gay man what that actually meant, because for so long I was told that it was wrong, I'm going to hell, all of that. Norman J. Liverpool IV 3:32 So when you and I met, I was going from one extreme to the next because I did not know like where to even begin. So I remember back then, like I would have like long hair and carry big purses and have you know, like all of that and then because that's what what when you look at media, you know, that's what I saw. And I did not know that that I didn't have to be anything but myself. And so I spent quite some time kind of acting, if you will, trying to figure out what being gay means. And what, what it meant for me. Brian Schoenborn 4:16 Mm hmm. Norman J. Liverpool IV 4:17 And, oh, it was years of of turmoil and going up and down and in and out of relationships, and it was just like a lot of craziness. And then I got into property management back in 2012. And that really shifted things for me because prior to that, you know, I was working, you know, as you know, at Metro PCS, and then I was also a part time bartender. You know, I did drag shows and I was doing all these things. And then when the property management came on the table, I didn't have time for all of that because now working nine to five I have really important responsibilities and duties and so that was kind of like the catalyst that kind of started a lot of this, just because it changed the way that I had to interact professionally. And then from there, I just really started doing the work. I started writing, journaling, and really doing the work, you know, get in touch with myself and figure out what the heck that even meant. But to be completely honest, it wasn't really until last year, where things begin to shift focus for me, and my my vision and my purpose became a little bit more clear. Brian Schoenborn 5:39 That's interesting. I um, kind of similarly, um, you know, like, I've lived with PTSD for like, almost 20 years at this point. Norman J. Liverpool IV 5:50 Right. Brian Schoenborn 5:51 And, you know, because of that, I've spent a lot of time searching for my self, my purpose and all of that as well. Right. Norman J. Liverpool IV 6:00 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 6:01 You know, that that took me to Vegas, it took me to Boston and New York and, you know, China for a few years and all over the place and just trying to find a fit, right? Like, where, where my sweet spot is right? Norman J. Liverpool IV 6:13 Right. For sure. Brian Schoenborn 6:14 And it wasn't until, like, I moved up the corporate ladder, and all this and that, and, you know, at a fairly young age, my early 30s, I was near the top of a major corporation, Jose Cuervo. Living a job of, you know, a lot of people's dreams, that sort of thing. And I was just miserable, you know. And so, finally, at that point where I'd kind of like I'd given up and I'm like, you know what? This isn't sustainable for the next 30 years of my life. Norman J. Liverpool IV 6:39 Right. Brian Schoenborn 6:40 I got to figure out what the hell I'm going to do with my life who am I, you know, and so I started doing the work as well. You know, I kind of locked myself in my bedroom after work for like two months and like, I was journaling, doing skill and ability assessments and you know, things like that. And that kind of set me off on this path of you know, figuring out is something related to communications, international stuff, that kind of thing. But even then it took me a couple of years until I kind of finally realized that it's, it's the storytelling stuff, right, that's that's the stuff that gets me. You know, it's, it's telling my story, it's helping other people tell theirs, that kind of stuff, but but it took a long time to get there. Norman J. Liverpool IV 7:21 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 7:22 Just you know, when you when you talk about doing the work, you know, there's a lot to be said about that. What kind of stuff did you do? Like what was your…did you have a process that you laid out? Or was there you know, certain books that you read, or Norman J. Liverpool IV 7:35 I don't necessarily know that there was a process, I just knew that I was destined for greater. And so then the work became connecting A to Z. Oh, I'm here, but I know I need to go there. Brian Schoenborn 7:49 Hmm. Norman J. Liverpool IV 7:50 So part of that was me surrounding myself with like minded people. But it's also surrounding myself with people who had already attained certain things that I wanted for myself and professionally, personally. So, I mean, I've read books, you know, but a lot of the work had to do with me letting go of toxic family dynamics, toxic friendships, letting go of the the self shame that I had dealt with being a black gay man, and dealing with that kind of thing. And it was mostly internal, the work that I had to do. It was it was working on myself so that I could allow myself and give myself the permission to be the person that I knew that I'm destined. Brian Schoenborn 8:47 Yeah, no, I hear that and, you know, like for me, you know, so I went through some I had a little bit of process and I kind of figured out, you know, it was a lot of internal processing to, but it wasn't until like, you know, when I, when I made that decision to go to China, gave up everything. You know, I said, hey, I've got to do something international something communications, but I don't know what it is not leaving China till I figure it out. Norman J. Liverpool IV 9:11 Right. Brian Schoenborn 9:13 It was in China that that's when I, that's when I got to that point where I was like, Okay, give up all of these constructs that I that I have learned throughout my life, you know, give up caring about what people think about me, that sort of thing, and allowing myself just to be and to happen. Right. Norman J. Liverpool IV 9:35 Right. For sure. Brian Schoenborn 9:36 It was it was that, you know, a conscious decision. when everything started getting easier, everything and everything started happening, and it was all the stuff that I've kind of always wanted to happen. I just didn't really know that I was allowed to. Norman J. Liverpool IV 9:53 Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, you definitely. I mean, you definitely have to give yourself permission and thing that I don't think A lot of people understand, you have got to give yourself permission to say no to everything that is not leading you to your best self and your best lines. And that was really difficult for me because I'm a yes person, you know, I will help everyone I want to do everything for everyone. But as my mom always says, you know, when the airplane, you know, when they're doing that kind of spiel, when you get into an airplane, they say, if the mask comes down, put yours on first. And so as, the 2019 was the year of me putting my mask on first and to self care, self love, and even being a little bit selfish, and I know we try to steer away from that that term, selfish, but I really had to be I had to be selfish with my time. I had to be selfish with the energy that I was allowing myself allowing you know myself to put into other things and so Yeah, it really was the year of me putting my own mask on and just kind of finding my own footing and setting some new boundaries, you know, for others as well as myself. Brian Schoenborn 11:08 Yep. Yeah, hear that. I mean, you know, like for me, again, cuz so the last probably two, three years it's been really where I've been like, okay, all the way. But you know, it wasn't until I found that found that sweet spot, figured out who I was and then once I got it I'm like there's no way am I letting this go, you know, bury my head in my work you know, the only the only thing that I can do is think about this and like, push this forward you know that whole thing. Curious you just kind of backing up a little bit. You mentioned you mentioned talking about living as a black gay man. Right so like, you know, I'm neither black nor gay. Norman J. Liverpool IV 11:48 Okay. Brian Schoenborn 11:48 So so I don't understand necessarily the you know, the micro cultures of us or how they how they are you know how how that intersection, that intersectional micro culture might be, but I know that like, you know, over the last 15-20 years has been so much progress made as far as, you know, rights within the LGBTQ community, as well as, you know, general acceptance, and everything else that's that's happened over the years. You know, I feel like there's like our society in general, is a lot more open and welcoming to people of pretty much, you know, any intersection. I know, there's a lot of work to be done. Norman J. Liverpool IV 12:33 Oh, yeah, for sure. Brian Schoenborn 12:34 But there's a lot of ground that's been made. So I'm just wondering, like, you know, what the difference between being a gay man is maybe versus being a black gay man, or even a gay man that grew up in those religious constructs. Norman J. Liverpool IV 12:47 So I'll tell you, I have a quote that I love, and it's from a movie called great that's on amazon prime. And it says being a black man in America is a reality that should never be justified. So you can Imagine being a gay black man. And so the way that I liken it is being black and this is just being, you know, completely transparent. You're born with a strike against you already. Okay? Brian Schoenborn 13:15 Yeah. Norman J. Liverpool IV 13:16 And, and it's the sad reality that we've definitely made some strides in leaps and bounds, you know, for more of a closer inclusive type of thing. But, I mean, if you're born with that, you know what I mean? And I've seen it, you know, my dad is a black man, my uncles are black men. And I've seen the struggle and it's, and it's almost something that is internalized and passed down generationally. It's, it's really bizarre. So, when you're dealing with the construct of what a black man is, you know, there's stereotypes there's the reality there's all these different things that that that people think about being a black man, but one of those is not being gay. Norman J. Liverpool IV 14:03 So, the the difference for me and you know, this is my, my experience is that it's literally like, I'm wearing a scarlet letter before I even open my mouth and I'm the type of person that people know, I can tell that I'm gay right away, you I'm not…I've never been one of those people like I've been over the top my entire life. And so, to walk into a space and immediately trigger whatever people's responses are to black people or to gay people, or to gay black people, whatever, it almost is, like you have to be on the defense. And, you know, I, I felt like I was having to choose what events I was going to go to. I learned how to ignore certain things. So that way, it didn't affect me, you know. But to be completely honest, a lot of the stuff that I had to work through came from my family. Brian Schoenborn 15:02 Huh. Norman J. Liverpool IV 15:02 And it wasn't so much from the outside world, you know, which I mean, I got that. But I think what it was is the rejection from my family and the hesitation for them to really know Norman and so that really shaped my, my, my perspective because I looked up to, you know, various family members who were men and so that to have them say some of the things that they said and did some of the things that they did, it really it showed me Okay, yeah, you're you're black and gay. Because it's like, now these like, these black people are going to point out that you're gay. And so it's literally just having just, like, almost like a clown. Like it's whenever you go somewhere. It's like, Oh my god, who's gonna say something about this or who's gonna say something about that? And what's ironic is that the whole kind of discrimination about me being gay happened well before I can consciously remember being discriminated against for being black. Brian Schoenborn 16:11 Hmm. Interesting. Norman J. Liverpool IV 16:12 And the discrimination and again part of it is my like maybe my obliviousness to discrimination as it was happening, but I don't really recall a whole whole lot of discrimination for me being black when I was younger. That happened, quite honestly, within like the last five years where I have kind of experienced some some of those types of things. But the the gay thing that that that started long, long time ago, and what's funny about it, is it started before I even knew that I was gay. Brian Schoenborn 16:55 Hmm. Norman J. Liverpool IV 16:56 So it was like, you know, classmates were calling you gay or fag or whatever you know, and so it kind of pushed me into trying to figure out what and who I was. And it didn't happen organically. Because these people were telling me, this is what you are. And so I, it confused the hell out of me, it…And it's funny to this day, I still am in contact with one of my classmates who was the first person to call me gay. And I told him back in 2010 I said, you really messed it up for me. Because y'all didn't know what gay was. But you were putting this off on me. Now I don't know maybe because I was different. Maybe it wasn't because I was black. Maybe it was because I was creative and had like, you know, I was good in the arts and stuff, but it really started, for me, the discrimination for me just being me. I can recall that going back all the way to fourth grade. Brian Schoenborn 17:59 Wow, okay. And, and because you because you said you're like a creative artistic type person or Norman J. Liverpool IV 18:05 Well, it was a lot of things like, people didn't like me because I said I talked to you white. Or you know i, talked too girly. You know, the other kids they didn't understand like because again, back in this time I was the we were the first black family to live on our street. I was I was the only black student in my class for several years. We lived, you know, in a predominantly white, Caucasian area. So yeah, it was it was just really crazy. Norman J. Liverpool IV 18:41 And looking back at it is one of the reasons why I started over the top living because there's a lot of people that have gone through that that have taken their own lives. You know, pick up habits that are unsafe and things of that nature and some just don't want. I want to do my part to prevent that from happening as much as possible. Because it really it really could have gone the other way for me, because it wasn't just that I was getting it from outside, I was getting it from within my family. Well, literally forces you to a place where like, Okay, well I'm gonna make this happen on my own. So that level of independence that kind of grew from that is what allowed me to finally branch out and and do what I'm doing. Brian Schoenborn 19:34 Yeah, that's amazing, man. Kids or kids can be cruel, dude. Yeah, kids can be especially when you're not when you're not getting that love from the family, either. I mean, that's like, Where do you get a break? Where is your peace, you know? Norman J. Liverpool IV 19:48 And you know, the thing is to what I've recently realized is that the various things that happened with me and my family wasn't coming from a place of malice. It wasn't, you know, a place that, for me, I'll go back and say from my immediate family, but it wasn't coming from that. It really was coming from a place of fear. It was coming from a place of naivety, it was coming from a place of ignorance, it was coming from a place of what I see on the news is real life and it's gonna be your that's what's gonna happen to you. And so for a long time, I held resentment against my parents. Because, well, I mean, specifically kind of with my mom, because she now is my greatest supporter, but she was literally scared for me. You know, it wasn't that she wanted anything bad to happen. But when all you see and here are bad things happening to a group. Brian Schoenborn 20:46 Mm hmm. Norman J. Liverpool IV 20:46 And then someone that you love and care about says, oh, by the way, I'm a member of that group of people. It's almost like you go into defensive mode you go into like mama bear, and unfortunately, you know, with our relationship They caused us to be estranged for a while. But you know, now we both have done the work and she's my biggest champion, but it was it was time to go there for a while because I look to her to be like my source of happy, joy, all these positive things and I experienced that from her after literally just trying to allow her to know and love the real me was very difficult. Brian Schoenborn 21:29 I think it's one of those things. It's like, ignorance leads to fear. Fear leads to like fight or flight. Right. And, but that's that's where a lot of the friction in the world comes from. I think it's ignorance. Norman J. Liverpool IV 21:45 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 21:45 Right, like, I mean, I'll tell you what, man growing up. You know, I grew up in this small town in Michigan, right? Probably 90% white people. And, and a lot of them don't. A lot of those people. They live For generations, they don't leave that little area. Norman J. Liverpool IV 22:03 Right? Brian Schoenborn 22:03 It's fine. It's a good life for them, you know, they have all the things they need friends, family, food, all that stuff, right? But you're not exposed to the various things that life in the world has to offer. And you don't you don't understand it and you don't get, you know, you don't get to humanize, you know, people or or understand, you know, cultures or anything else like that. Norman J. Liverpool IV 22:31 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 22:32 Then as far as you know, it's whatever is being propagated to you from the news, right or Norman J. Liverpool IV 22:37 Right for sure. Brian Schoenborn 22:37 Or whatever other source that you hear it from, and, you know, if you don't take time to, like, get to know people or experience, things that, you know, are not things that you've always known or that you're used to. You don't grow. Norman J. Liverpool IV 22:53 Right. Brian Schoenborn 22:54 I think I think that's kind of one of the big things here is by kind of, I guess, educating people, but also like, you know, getting to know people that may the, the certain listeners may, you know, may not otherwise be exposed to. Norman J. Liverpool IV 23:08 Yeah, and I think that's huge. Because it's, it's, it's kind of like my whole situation like when I came to Las Vegas, I came from Chicago, which is a huge city. But the way that our kind of our family construct was, it was like, we did everything together and with my extended family, so my grandmother was a pastor. So we all my whole family, we all went to that church. And so I was very much sheltered. As part of the reason why when I came to Vegas, I was wilding out. Brian Schoenborn 23:43 Right. Norman J. Liverpool IV 23:44 Time. I could do what I wanted. When I wanted, I didn't have to answer to anyone. So if I wanted to go out in this, you know, go out with a wig on or go out with how I mean whatever it is, I was able to do that. But it really prompted me to get to know a wide variety of people. I learned tons of lessons, you know, good and bad. And I think that you hit the nail right on the head, you know, when we're not exposed to certain things. It's scary. Brian Schoenborn 24:16 Mm hmm. No, absolutely. Like I just, I go back to this thought like when I, you know, I lived in China for almost four years. And when I the first time I came back from Beijing visited my family in Michigan. I ran into this lady that I grew up with. She was she was the guitarist at my church or something like that. So I knew her pretty well. She I bumped into her like this local store, and she's like, oh, what are you doing? And I'm like, Oh, you know, I'm just I'm living in China just doing my thing. She's like, oh, China, China, right? What are you doing there? I'm so scared for you. It's communist. Baba, Baba, Baba Baba. stuff. Are you safe? Are you safe? Are you safe? And I'm like, yeah, it's actually you know, I feel just as safe there. If not safer than in America and Norman J. Liverpool IV 24:59 Right. Brian Schoenborn 24:59 warm and welcoming. And, you know, there's I'm having a great time over there. And she's like, oh my god, I can't even believe it, Brian. I'm scared for you and like, but that's the thing because, you know, China's I mean, that's an example where it's the opposite side of the world, you know, China's always in the news, right? As the existential threat to American domination, you know, all that. When all you hear is this doom and gloom, or like naysaying sort of things then, you know, that's the picture that you have painted in your mind about someone or something or whatever, right someplace. But until you actually expose yourself, you're never gonna really know. Norman J. Liverpool IV 25:40 No, you never know. Mm hmm. Brian Schoenborn 25:43 Tell me So you said I think you started kind of kind of started coming into your own and like in 2019. How did the…how did that start? Something about a Powerhouse Academy? Is that what that was? Norman J. Liverpool IV 25:57 So it actually you know, and I have to give credit where credit is due. It actually started a little bit prior to the power house. I was involved in multi level marketing. And on top of everything else I've got going on. And one of the foundations of the organization that I worked with was personal development and growth. Brian Schoenborn 26:20 Hmm. Norman J. Liverpool IV 26:20 Oh, in addition to our sales and all of that, we would get up in the morning and be book clubs at five in the morning. We would, you know, we promoted healthy lifestyle. We promoted reading, writing all of that. And that situation really put me in the room with like minded individuals. From there is how I met Chandra Brooks, who is the founder of the Powerhouse Academy because she was actually invited as a speaker to the group that I was working with. Brian Schoenborn 26:52 Hmm. Norman J. Liverpool IV 26:53 And, you know, while we're talking and you know, I was doing some research on her and about this academy and it was specifically geared towards women. And so I didn't even think like that, you know, it was something that I could even consider. But then I began to look at Chandra's roster. And I began to see the list of politicians, authors, podcast hosts. Just these these powerful women and, and high ranking positions. They have access to all these different tables and like, I need that. And I reached out to her, and I, whatever it is that you're giving these women in Powerhouse, I need that. And the Powerhouse Academy is a leadership and development and business coaching mentorship, like it's all that kind of wrapped into one. And it's a six week program, eight weeks, eight week program. Actually, we actually went a little bit longer, but it if it wasn't for the power house, I would have never kind of honed in on exactly what my vision was, because you can be good at a whole bunch of things, but you can't do a whole bunch of things at one time. So what the Powerhouse taught me was, okay, what are you passionate about? And what are you good at? And can we put those two things together in a package that will allow you to touch lives, allow you to make an impact, but I mean, also, you know, allow me to make money? And so that really is like that's what took it over the edge. But kind of my I was kind of already getting in that that groove and the powerhouse just literally, it truly changed my life. Because I went from the mentality of always being an employee to now being an employer. I shifted my mentality to you know, my limitless potential. I shifted my mentality from always being okay being mediocre to pushing bnack to become my very best. Brian Schoenborn 29:02 What? So just kind of curious about, like, what is the powerhouse? I mean, you said it's like an eight week course. Are there things in there like, I mean, cuz it sounds like there was a major transformation that happened during that period. Of course, going back to the thought process was that the process was it like what? What was the thing? Norman J. Liverpool IV 29:23 It was the process but it was that having a coach that held me accountable for example, if you know so we would have group calls every week, you know, we would have print subject matter every week, we'd have group calls, individual calls, and she would give us homework. And so throughout the week, now literally to this day, she still watches everything I do. If I if I post something on Facebook, she's like, Oh, you need to change the words you know, to do this or, but it was really having access to the resources. That's number one. And that's one way to advocate you know, having a coach because she has already Been there. And so she already had a multitude of resources that I now have access to. She kept me accountable. So if I said that I was going to reach out to Xyz Corporation, you know, for a speaking engagement, or if I was, you know, whatever it is that we had planned, she was on my ass about it. And so it basically was a catch and switch in my mentality from inactivity to activity. Brian Schoenborn 30:27 From that. So from those lessons in the shifting of the mind, the accountability, and the action, how have you taken that and kind of roll, ran with it? Norman J. Liverpool IV 30:39 Well, I have launched my speaking tour, which I've always considered myself a good speaker and I always consider myself a wordsmith and someone that it was able to articulate. But it wasn't until I owned my whole story. And that was one of the things That Chandra pulled out of me because I was nervous to talk about my family to talk about my mom, you know, one of my speaking topics is you won't live to see 30 words from your mother, you know, so and be very transparent and vulnerable. I wasn't ready for that. But when it was put into the perspective of Norman, there are people who need you and don't even know it yet. There are people who are waiting for the services that you're going to provide. It shifted my mindset to being a little selfless. And so I had to have a conversation with my family and say, This is what my new my venture is. And it just so that you know, the things are going you know, are going to come out, but it was, it was a kind of a package of the accountability, the resources, and also the other women that were in my cohort. You know, we offered a ton of support for each other. And that's really what catapulted me into wanting to speak. And then from there, she pushed me, okay, reach out to these people reach out to these people. And so speaking engagements started coming in, things started changing, things started shifting. And, you know, that's that's literally how it happened and it happened very fast. Brian Schoenborn 32:24 Wow, that's awesome. So, um, what are what are some of the things that you're speaking so you're talking about you won't live until 30? Norman J. Liverpool IV 32:31 Yeah, so that's one of my speaking topics. Um, and basically that was, I mean, it just explores my family dynamic. You know, my mother was a single mom for majority of our upbringing, and my younger sister is gay as well and it's just the two of us. Now, mind you we didn't come out till much later. But that was challenging because I would have to imagine as a mother, she would have seen something or or been able to pick up about something and so, when I came out, she didn't think I would live to be 30. And it wasn't that she wanted me to die or, you know, anything like that. But in her circle, you know, the people that came out and live the openly gay lifestyle, they were involved in things and and, you know, drugs and, you know, extremely promiscuous and, you know, obviously back then, you know, AIDS was, you know, very it was in the spotlight, you know. Brian Schoenborn 33:34 Yeah. Norman J. Liverpool IV 33:34 It was very new, it was newer. And so in her mind, she was like, Well, if you are going to live this way, there's no way that you're going, you're going to live past 30. And so, I talked about that and talk about how our relationship has completely transformed into the beautiful mother son relationship that we have today. My second speaking topic is Be You Boo, and it's living unapologetically and unshamed. And it says exploring coming into your own self, accepting yourself learning to encourage yourself, you know, I feel like as human beings we get so caught up in this outside validation, that we don't realize that everything that we need is already inside of us. So we talked about that. And we talked about some of the Over the Top Living hacks that I've kind of created, which will be, you know, coming out in my book that'll be released later this year. But we talked about some Over the Top Living hacks that you can just catch that that thought and switch it to something, you know, more productive or positive. My third speaking topic is Double Trouble, my Black Experience. and so that explores my journey as a black man who's gay. And I kind of talked about the unique challenges and how internal and external influences ultimately brought me to where I am. And it talks about not just my professional development, but my personal development as well. Brian Schoenborn 35:01 Hmm. So I mean, it sounds to me like you definitely put the work in. You know, that's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of deep self reflection, you know, working through certain kinks, you know, that kind of stuff, getting to that point, man, that's, that's great, dude. I mean, you sound like a very, very whole a whole person right now. Norman J. Liverpool IV 35:23 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 35:24 Fantastic. Norman J. Liverpool IV 35:25 For the first time. Brian Schoenborn 35:27 That's great, man. I'm so so proud of you, man. What about I'm also curious because again, going back to that kind of the the black gay dynamic as well as with your with the religious family. You know, what did it take to talk about your mom for second, like, what did it take for like, how did she come to terms or come to grips with everything and and ultimately accept you and your sister? Norman J. Liverpool IV 35:56 So it's funny you asked that because what I'm getting right to share with you I just found out last week. When I came out, my sister saw how the family reacted. And at time that I was coming out, she was going through the same thing. But I found out, she just shared this with me last week, that she was terrified to come out after seeing what I had gone through. Brian Schoenborn 36:21 Hmm. Norman J. Liverpool IV 36:22 And, you know, essentially what happened is my mom basically said, I can't deal with this. You are, I'm giving you back to God, essentially. And we didn't speak for quite some time. Now. I don't remember how long it was that we didn't speak. To me. I thought it was like eight or six months. My sister said it was over a year. She was living in Illinois at the time and she shared with me that my mom's husband and my sister were one year begging and pleading my mom to call me for my birthday. Brian Schoenborn 36:55 Wow. Norman J. Liverpool IV 36:56 Um, and and she just couldn't or wouldn't But it really took knowing what I know now, it really took my sister and my stepdad, to really kind of step in and and, and say this is still your son. And so we started talking again, I want to say we started talking via email at first. And then, you know, she started to come and visit. I think that what it was is when she saw that I am, as you said, a whole person. I wasn't living in a bunch of lack. You know, I'm still the same Norman from before. And as she began to interact and insert herself more into my life, she thought, Okay, this is these are my kids. And it was that initial shock. And I think that in some ways now that I'm, you know, speaking of it, she was trying to protect her heart. Brian Schoenborn 37:58 Mm hmm. Norman J. Liverpool IV 37:59 And so once she came and started involving herself in my wife, involving herself more of my sister's life at the time, I think that's when it became easier for her. And it was a no brainer at that point. Because she sees Oh, wow, I raised great kids. It was it was definitely a process. Okay. It was a process that took years. But part of the success of this relationship is that I had to set boundaries on what I was willing to accept, what I was willing to hear, where I was willing to, to see all of that. And so we had, you know, we set these boundaries, and now we interact as mother son, but as adults. And so it's a completely different dynamic now, and I'm really blessed that, I'm really blessed to have the support of both my parents, but I'm really, really proud of where me and my mom are today. Because, again, it was touch and go. Brian Schoenborn 39:11 Yeah. That's, that's interesting, you know, say I think about, like, you know, every kid, sorry, every parent wants what's best for their kid. And but at the same time, the reality of it is, you know, as a parent, it's easy to get inside of this bubble, you know, you're raising the kid for, you know, 18 years, whatever the case may be, and this has always been your little boy and all that stuff. And then life starts happening. Right, reality starts happening and out and a lot of times, you know, parents don't really know how to respond to that. You know, for example, you know, I kind of like I said, I've had PTSD for almost 20 years. I was actually I was drugged and raped by a man in the military. Right? And so that that's fucked me up for a long time. There's been in my parents have known about it since early on and they've been, you know, try to be loving and stuff. But I remember probably must have been like five years ago, I think. I was taking a road trip with my dad. And he said he goes, Brian, just get over it? Why don't you just let it go? Norman J. Liverpool IV 40:23 Right. Brian Schoenborn 40:24 And it's, you know, like he just doesn't understand like what's going on inside of my head with with experiences that I had and you know, everyone's different. Some people can let things go, you know, some people experience a traumatic event and develop PTSD. Like that's how it works. You know, whether they want to try to discount you or push you away, or whatever the case may be, you know, they're always they love you and they care for you and they want what's best for you. Norman J. Liverpool IV 40:48 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 40:49 And also, they're, if they're discounting it or whatever. They're just trying to like, in their own way, I think make it right. But Norman J. Liverpool IV 41:02 It's a sense of control that that you have. And you're dealing with, you know, your parents, they want to protect us. They want to keep us safe. They don't want to believe that anything bad can happen to us. And when something does that is completely outside of their control, what I have found is it sends them haywire. There's something in the brain that just does not allow them to like to accept the fact that I don't have control over this situation. This is something that happened is that my child is going through and I've got to give them the space and time to move through it. Brian Schoenborn 41:40 Yep. Norman J. Liverpool IV 41:41 I think that that's the biggest thing that I've learned, at least from my parents. Is that it all it all came from a very loving place. But when you're dealing with your kids or anyone you love, sometimes that loving place can manifest itself something completely different Brian Schoenborn 42:04 in so many ways to I mean, this, you know, this, you know, again, whether it's whether it's being you know, whether it's whether it's having a certain orientation or having, you know, maybe you have certain beliefs about religion, maybe you join a church and your parents weren't or maybe you left something or whatever, you know, or also there's countless other things that can kind of send them that way. You know, like, Oh, you know, I was raised Catholic. Oh, you didn't marry good Catholic girl. or whatever, right? Um, you know, it's just so stupid. It's so stupid, you know, but it's but you're right, it sends them haywire and I think it's a control thing, too. is probably probably gonna stay that way for the rest of time. Because you know, everyone says they're gonna do things differently. But, you know, you get wrapped up in that bubble and you know, it's the nurturing instincts. I think, rght? Norman J. Liverpool IV 43:00 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 43:02 But it's it's great that a great to hear that she was able to work through it, you know, finally accept you for that man and it's and not only that but like to the max right like, like it's crazy. Norman J. Liverpool IV 43:14 And you know and I have to you know because I know my dad is gonna listen to this and actually give him credit because I asked my dad on Saturday, I knew we were preparing for this and I have some other things that I'm preparing for and I said, Dad, how did you react my came out? And he said, I'm still waiting. And so I didn't realize that I never officially came out to my dad accepted me and we rolled with it. Now mind you when I lived when I first moved to Vegas, and I was working with you at Metro I was living with him. Brian Schoenborn 43:49 Okay. Norman J. Liverpool IV 43:49 Oh, I, in my mind. I thought that I would have had to have told him. Brian Schoenborn 43:54 Yeah. Norman J. Liverpool IV 43:55 But no, he said I never came out. He said I'm still waiting. I just have to give him that, that that credit and not to discount you know from either parent. They're, they're both amazing, but I was really I was really proud at that moment. And I'm proud of both of my parents because I'm proud that my dad just kind of rolled with it. So super proud that my mom worked through her own bullshit and own stuff and her own whatever was in her mind or from society to get to where we are today. Brian Schoenborn 44:34 Shout out to mom and dad. Is that three? Norman J. Liverpool IV 44:36 What? Brian Schoenborn 44:37 Is that Norman three? Norman J. Liverpool IV 44:38 Well yeah, that's Norman the third. Brian Schoenborn 44:40 Shout out shout out to Big Three. Norman J. Liverpool IV 44:42 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 44:45 So he talked a little bit about like some of the speaking engagement stuff, kind of shift gears a little bit. This is all related to Over the Top Living? Like what is what is Over the Top Living? Like how did you get to that point, you know, decide to create whatever, you know, what this is? Norman J. Liverpool IV 45:02 So Over the Top Living, the way that that came about I actually had this business name for years. Oh, probably since 2012. Just because my mom is very much like, prepare, have your documents in order. And I always knew that I was over the top, but… Brian Schoenborn 45:27 Yeah, no shit, huh? Norman J. Liverpool IV 45:30 I decided to take it from a negative and turn it into a positive. A lot of people were saying, Oh, you know, Norman is over the top, and it was in a bad way or a negative connotation. And I'm like, you're right. I am over the top. And so basically, the over the top, it's multifaceted. So it's my personal brand, as well as my signature mentorship program. So my speaking and basically everything I'm doing right now is some way tied to over the top living. So, right now I've recently, two weeks ago I was sworn in as a member of the governing board of the Southern Nevada Health Department over there at the Community Center. Brian Schoenborn 46:19 Nice, man huge. Norman J. Liverpool IV 46:21 Yeah, yeah. Huge, huge. That's also an extension of over the top living. My speaking engagements are an extension of over the top living. And, you know, my coaching and mentorship program is one is a part of that as well. Brian Schoenborn 46:39 Right on, man. And so how do you how do you live over the top like that's, I mean, I know you Norman, and I know you've been, you know, you've been over the top, extra, as far as long as I've known you. Norman J. Liverpool IV 46:51 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 46:51 How like, how do you how does one go about living over the top like, lay it on me. Norman J. Liverpool IV 46:56 It's two things for me, which are multi layered, but the cacth and switch attitude. So what I mean by that is I catch any negative thought or anything and I switch it with something that's productive. I switch, I catch my inactivity and switch it for activity. But the main thing was you do the work. Okay. And then once you've done the work you live, unapologetically and unashamed period. That's how you live over the top. Your version of living over the top may not be as loud and in your face as mine, you know, a client that I'm working with who she is, she's definitely over the top but in her own way, and over the her was changing her mindset that she can start her own business and do herself. So it really is what you make of it, but it is catching and switching those negative, non non productive thoughts and behaviors for something positive and productive. It is changing that inaction for action word, and then it's just simply living in purpose, on purpose. It is very intentional. Brian Schoenborn 47:24 Mm hmm. Norman J. Liverpool IV 48:14 And it's living, unapologetic, and unashamed like you mentioned earlier, when we stop caring about what other people think. If I was caring if I still cared about what people thought I wouldn't even be able to be sitting here doing this podcast with you like, well, oh my god, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm Norman, like, who wants to hear from me, you know, but I had to throw that out the window and really just live my truth and purpose on purpose. Brian Schoenborn 48:58 Hell, yeah. I love that living in person, on purpose. Like that's a I love that. That's a great a guidepost. What else you want to talk about? Let's go, so you mentioned that you were on the governing board of the Southern Nevada Community House. Like, how did this happen, dude, like this? I mean, just because that's a big deal. You're still young, right? You seem awfully young to be a board member of something so big. Norman J. Liverpool IV 49:27 Yeah. From your lips to God's ears. Brian Schoenborn 49:29 I mean, how did this happen? Dude, tell me about this. Norman J. Liverpool IV 49:31 So, again, I'm gonna, I'm gonna circle back to the Powerhouse, because it, it has a lot to do with a lot of the things that I'm doing right now. So essentially, I was asked to be on the board. And because of, you know, I've been in Vegas for since 2007. I, you know, previously back in the day, I was on the Las Vegas pride board and, you know, I was an entertainer and so I know the community here very, very well. I kept saying no, oh I'll think about it or, you know, whatever. And then the individual that that had been, I don't want to say pursuing me, but had been encouraging me to join. He literally looked at me and said, this is your community. Do you care about it or not? Brian Schoenborn 50:24 Wow. Norman J. Liverpool IV 50:25 And what was crazy about that, Brian, is when I went to get sworn in there was nobody that looked like me on the board. Brian Schoenborn 50:36 Hmm. Norman J. Liverpool IV 50:37 Um, there were no wait, hold on. Let me take that back. There were no black gay men. Brian Schoenborn 50:45 Hmm. Norman J. Liverpool IV 50:47 There's a couple gay guys. And I said gay guys. I mean, these are high ranking. You know, you know, the the mayor Pro Tem for North Las Vegas is on my board and and he's not gay, but I I'm just saying that these are huge, heavy hitters. I didn't see anyone that looked like me. I didn't see a young professional. I didn't see, you know, the young, gay person, I didn't see a black gay person. And so in that moment, I knew that I had a responsibility to be on that board. I knew it, right then. Brian Schoenborn 51:25 Yeah. Norman J. Liverpool IV 51:25 And so, you know, it was, again, allowing myself the permission to be myself in this room and accept the fact that I belong there. Brian Schoenborn 51:40 That's an interesting situation too right? Like, when you start Well, first of all, I'd say representation matters. Norman J. Liverpool IV 51:49 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 51:49 So you know, that's, I mean, whether it's, whether it's like on screen or whatever, but like, but you know, it also matters in the local community, right? Because that's, that's how you, that's how you tailor policies or whatever towards everybody, you know, be inclusive like that, it starts there. But also like, when you're in the right spot, right, like when you're, you know, like when you know you're in the right spot things just they work, right? Like the guy in um, so, so in addition to this, you know, I'm developing some other projects, film TV and stuff like that. And over the last couple of years have been introduced to a lot of award winning producers. I you know, I did an event with some professional athletes. And you know, the amazing thing to me is like that like that stuff all started happening once I figured out what my path was, my purpose, Norman J. Liverpool IV 51:57 Right. Brian Schoenborn 52:01 And everything started coming together and you know, I meet these people and we just hit it off and like we've no, no others. These producers are these celebrities are these professional athletes. We just hit it off man and like, and it's good, you know, it's the creative juices flowing, it's respecting each other. You know, it's having a good time. But it's just a fit. Norman J. Liverpool IV 53:11 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 53:12 You know? And I mean, I even think like back to and, you know, when we worked at Metro shout out to Metro PCS, shout out the metro. But when we're working there, you know, like, I struggled man, like, I mean, I could do the work. I got along with a couple of people, but I fucking hated it. You know, and I was and I was a cog in a machine, and that's how it was most of the most of the way through my corporate career before I decided to go and never work for anybody again. You know? But it's that point, right? Like, you know, once I, I did the work, I get, you know, I changed my mindset and a lot of things. And, you know, figured out what my thing was, and that's…again, everything starts falling in place, and then you realize you're standing around, maybe at an event or something and you're looking around and you're like, I'm surrounded by a bunch of high profile powerful people. And guess what? They're treating me as one of them. Norman J. Liverpool IV 54:15 Right? Because you are. And that's the crazy thing about it. Brian Schoenborn 54:21 And you're like, Really? Norman J. Liverpool IV 54:22 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 54:23 Hold on a second. Me? Come on. Norman J. Liverpool IV 54:27 Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's crazy that the rooms that I'm in now, just by aligning myself with my purpose, you know, and before I even spoke, they booked me for the graduation of May. Brian Schoenborn 54:45 Oh sweet! Norman J. Liverpool IV 54:46 Yeah, it's crazy. I'll be the keynote speaker at the lavender graduation may 1. It's just the room that I'm in at the table that I'm at now. Really positioning me to do some huge good, you know? Not just for the LGBTQ community. I mean, as that's my focus, but I mean for everybody. Brian Schoenborn 55:06 A big respect to that dude. And I mean, I'm not sure if you know, but like, so again, going back to my PTSD stuff, like, I'm also in the process of developing writing a book and developing a show around my experiences with that, you know, I've done a lot of work on myself. I've worked through a lot of I still live with it, I've learned to manage it. Norman J. Liverpool IV 55:25 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 55:26 But the problem with like, PTSD, for example, is that, you know, so many people have it. And nobody ever wants to talk about it. Right? So so even by just saying, okay, you know, what, Hey, I'll come talk about it. I'll write a book about it, you know, I'll make a show about it or whatever. For me, that's, I'm trying to help those people because, like, let's face it in the military. I mean, there's a there's a number number 22. There's 22 military, active duty or veterans that kill themselves every single day. And a lot of it has to do with PTSD related stuff. Norman J. Liverpool IV 56:05 Wow. Brian Schoenborn 56:05 And yeah, and those are, those are things like those are internal battles that you're fighting with yourself every day, right? Nobody wants to talk about the event, because it's the most horrific day they've ever experienced. Right? Because they don't want to talk about it. No, but their family and other, you know, medical professionals, whatever, they don't know how to respond. And it's just kind of a, it's a it's a, it's a, like a downhill downward spiral kind of sort of thing, right? It's the opposite of a virtuous cycle. Norman J. Liverpool IV 56:39 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 56:40 It's just all bad. And you know, like for me to see all that kind of talk about stuff like that, you know, and I've been told by some some people that you know, doing what I'm doing is going to save lives. Norman J. Liverpool IV 56:51 Oh, I believe it. Brian Schoenborn 56:52 No, I mean, that's that's kind of what keeps me going. And But still, I'm just like, wow, like, you know, if I I've been living with this for damn near 20 years. I could have. I mean, I could have done something about this long before that. But I think you have to wait until you become that whole person, right, until you until you work through your stuff. And, you know, if you're the type person that wants to have that type of focus or platform, you've got to wait until the time is right. Norman J. Liverpool IV 57:27 Oh, you have to, you have to timing is so crucial. Because especially doing what like what you're doing. It's emotional, and constant because not only are you living with it and managing it, but you're talking about it and you're sharing it consistently. And so if you're not in a mental or emotional place to manage that also, it's it's actually does more harm than good. Brian Schoenborn 57:57 Right? And so that, and that's exactly right. Like I've had other people that have had similar situations in me, like reach out to me that I've never met before they're like, oh I wanna share my story. I'm gonna share my story. I'm like, No, you don't know like, not not No, you don't, but you don't right now, like, take some time process through this stuff, try to get some sort of grip on it. And then you can make the decision if you want to share it. You can if you want, you don't have to, either way. But, you know, somebody's got to talk about various situations. Because that goes that goes back to the exposure thing, right? If we don't, if we're not exposed to it, we don't know about it. And that which we don't know, we fear. That which we fear we cause harm to, right? Norman J. Liverpool IV 58:43 Yeah, yeah. Brian Schoenborn 58:47 So I'm just over here doing my little part. Norman J. Liverpool IV 58:51 You know what, I'm glad. I'm glad that you are because especially learning that figure of the military personnel that take their own lives, that that's huge. And I'm glad that you're here to tell it. Brian Schoenborn 59:03 Yeah. Appreciate it, man. I think we're at a pretty good spot to wrap it up. I think it feels pretty natural. Norman J. Liverpool IV 59:10 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 59:11 Do you have anything else you want to talk about before we wrap it up? Norman J. Liverpool IV 59:14 Yeah, you know, no, I'm just again, I just want to get across, you know, from everyone that can hear me. You are enough. I want to challenge you. I want to challenge you that thing that you've been putting off that thing, that that book that's been in the back of your mind that song that you've been wanting to write, that business venture, that contact that you've been wanting to reach out, I want you to be intentional with that. I want you to begin to live in purpose and on purpose. And then just do you, as I say do you boo. And live unapologetically and live unashamed, in your truth. Brian Schoenborn 59:53 Hell yeah, man. Hell, yeah. Anything else you want to plug? Norman J. Liverpool IV 59:57 So definitely all day long. I will always plug the Powerhouse Academy but you can go to Chandra-Brooks.com or you can just YouTube Powerhouse Academy is all over there and then also Over the Top we will have our official launch on April 18 here in Las Vegas, I'm really excited about that. Our website is currently under construction just so that we can bring some, you know, fresher content just you know follow you can follow me on Instagram @theMrLiverpool I'm on Facebook overthetopliving so I just invite any of you that even if you have any questions just feel free to be able to connect with me on my speaking engagements, my speaking tour, or on my signature mentorship program. Brian Schoenborn 1:00:41 Right on man appreciate it appreciate the time as well. Been been a good one. Good catch up and learned quite a bit man. I you know, I'm really like I said I'm really proud of you know the person you've become over the last few years, man, you've really come into yourself. Norman J. Liverpool IV 1:00:55 Well, I appreciate it. Thank you. Brian Schoenborn 1:00:57 Give it up for my friend Norma Liverpool everyone. You've been listening to Half the City with Brian Schoenborn, presented by 8B Media. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast, share it with your friends and leave a solid five-star review to ensure these stories get spread far and wide. For more information, as well as listen to other shows, including Relentless: a Survivor's Search for Passion, Purpose and Inner Peace, and Beyond Relentless, be sure to check out 8Bmedia.com. Thank you for listening. Transcribed by https://otter.ai Related Episodes 8| Superstar Recording Artist & Global Entrepreneur DJ Chozie Ma 1| Green Beret Lt. Col. (Ret.) Chris Schmitt 5| Elite Performance and Learning Expert Dr. Joseph Trachtman

Norman J. Liverpool IV is an entrepreneur and speaker, with a passion for spreading awareness for the LGBTQ+ community and the issues that community faces. He's also the creator of a signature mentorship and coaching program designed for that same LGBTQ+ community called Over the Top Living. Prior to accomplishing so much not only for himself, but others as well, Norman left his home in Chicago and relocated to Las Vegas in 2007, that he began his journey to finding himself. By 2008, this journey led him to the realization that he was gay. Then identifying as a gay black man, he would spend the next several years in and out of varying versions of himself. This process has spanned for over 15 years. We're here to talk quite a bit about that.

Norman J. Liverpool IV is an entrepreneur and speaker, with a passion for spreading awareness for the LGBTQ+ community and the issues that community faces. He's also the creator of a signature mentorship and coaching program designed for that same LGBTQ+ community called Over the Top Living. Prior to accomplishing so much not only for himself, but others as well, Norman left his home in Chicago and relocated to Las Vegas in 2007, that he began his journey to finding himself. By 2008, this journey led him to the realization that he was gay. Then identifying as a gay black man, he would spend the next several years in and out of varying versions of himself. This process has spanned for over 15 years. We're here to talk quite a bit about that.

DJ Chozie Ma is the top selling EDM artist in China and Taiwan. Chozie, an Australian by birth, has spent over 22 years in Beijing, building the EDM scene from scratch, beginning with clubs and albums, as well as partnering with the man behind the music at the Beijing 2008 Olympics, to VVIP travel experiences, interactive domes, and organic skincare line Greenerways Organic. Show Notes Greenerways Organic Follow Chozie on Instagram | Facebook | WeChat "One Night in Beijing" (feat. Peyton) Video Theme music by: Ruel Morales Audio Transcript Brian Schoenborn 0:01 Hello, hello. Hey everybody. Our guest today is, he's had a pretty epic life. Let's put it that way. Truly a man of many hats from being the top selling electronic music DJ in both Taiwan and China, to owning some of the top clubs in Asia, as well as an expert, top of his game with vvip experiences. We're going to get into all of that stuff, as well as some other stuff that he's got going on. This dude's got so much stuff happening. It's kind of hard to wrap our arms around all of it. We're going to dive in as much as we can. So give it up for my friend, Chozie Ma. Brian Schoenborn 0:41 My name is Brian Schoenborn. I'm an explorer of people, places and culture. In my travels, spanning over 20 countries across four continents, I've had the pleasure of engaging in authentic conversations with amazingly interesting people. These are their stories, on location and unfiltered. Presented by 8B Media, this is Half the City. Chozie Ma 1:09 What's up? How you doing? Brian Schoenborn 1:11 Good, man. How are you? Chozie Ma 1:12 Happy to be here in LA. Brian Schoenborn 1:13 Dude, I'm so happy to see you, man. It's been it's been a minute, man. Chozie Ma 1:16 Yea, totally. Brian Schoenborn 1:17 Yeah. So guys, so first, let me take it back. We're having a little bit of technical difficulties. We're going mano today. We're improvising, adapting and overcoming. My, one of my dongles for my mic broke. So we've got one mic instead of two. No big deal. We just fucking roll with it. Right? So you might be hearing some background noise and stuff like that some cars going by or whatever, here and there. We're actually on location in Venice, Venice Beach, California. We're actually 100 yards from the beach. Chozie Ma 1:42 You can see the beach. Brian Schoenborn 1:43 You can see the beach. Chozie Ma 1:44 Yeah, it's sweet. Brian Schoenborn 1:45 We're right here. Chozie's in LA for business. Chozie Ma 1:50 Business and play. Brian Schoenborn 1:51 It just so happened that Chozie saw one of the first episodes out and I'm like, dude, I haven't seen I haven't talked to this guy like a year and I'm like, and he's like, yo, fuckin A. He liked it on my WeChat the Chinese social media, Chinese Facebook, whatever you wanna call it, like, dude, let's do this. Chozie Ma 2:05 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 2:05 And he's like, yeah. And then he messaged me, he's like, Yo, I'm in Venice doing something. I'm like, dude, I'm in LA. Let's get together. You know, the whole concept of the show anyways is you know, I'm talking to people all over the world with amazingly interesting stories. And on location, right, so we're chillin, we're chillin in his place here, his studio here in Venice Beach. You can hear somebody doing some construction work behind us in the background. All good. No, it's all good. I don't care. I don't even care, man. It's the content. Chozie Ma 2:33 Yeah, that's it. Brian Schoenborn 2:33 You know, it's the authenticity of it. But I've known Chozie for four, four years? Chozie Ma 2:39 Yeah, it's been a minute. Brian Schoenborn 2:39 Three or four years, something like that. Chozie Ma 2:41 Yeah. From Beijing. Brian Schoenborn 2:42 Yeah, from Beijing, baby. Yeah, I've known Chozie since my time in Beijing and if you guys have been listening, you know, I spent four years there doing some stuff on my own, but Chozie…I mean, you look Chinese. But your English is so good. Do you like? Chozie Ma 2:59 Yes, I'm Chozie. Okay, so it stands for Chinese Aussie. So my father's Chinese my mom's Aussie. Grew up in Sydney. Graduated there, then made the move over to the mainland back back to the roots in 98. Brian Schoenborn 3:13 98? Chozie Ma 3:14 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 3:14 Dude. So you're hitting what your 22nd year? Chozie Ma 3:16 Twenty-second year, yeah. Brian Schoenborn 3:17 My god, man. Chozie Ma 3:18 Zero to Hero. Brian Schoenborn 3:20 For real, like I can't even imagine like the changes. So, if you if you've never been to China, you've never been to Beijing or any of the other major cities. Ever since the, who was it? Who was, Deng Xiaoping? Chozie Ma 3:34 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 3:34 When Deng Xiaoping started opening up the country. It was closed off for years, decades, right? It was just its own nationalist, no access in or out type country. And around the time of Deng Xiaoping, who was the leader of the Chinese party, back in the time with Nixon, I think Richard Nixon, the American president. Chozie Ma 3:55 Kissinger, I think, to make the formal transition. Brian Schoenborn 3:57 Well, he was a diplomat, the foreign relations guy. Chozie Ma 4:00 Right. Brian Schoenborn 4:02 But they started opening up, it was the great opening. So this was like 30, 40 years ago. And since then the growth in China has been explosive. Chozie Ma 4:10 Yeah, donkeys and carts to Ferraris and Lamborghinis. Brian Schoenborn 4:12 Yeah. Chozie Ma 4:13 Just like that. Brian Schoenborn 4:13 It's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy and like so you see these areas like in Beijing for example. There's been so much growth that you know, one block you'll see these one story, they're called hutongs. They're like one story buildings that are anywhere between 600 and 1000 years old. Really cool spots. Chozie Ma 4:29 Really cool. Brian Schoenborn 4:30 History culture, all that good stuff. But a block away you'll see these skyscrapers with like neon lights that light up all night just like super like, I don't know you think like… Chozie Ma 4:40 Concrete jungle. Brian Schoenborn 4:41 Concrete jungle, but like to the extreme. like super super. Chozie Ma 4:44 Weird-ass designs, like the pants building that do things that hang over…I don't know. It's just Yeah, really. Architecture. But cool. You got the old and the new, in one city. Brian Schoenborn 4:57 It's kind of weird though. Like I feel like you know, in my time there, one of the things that I noticed was like, as modern as they become so quickly, as global as it become so quickly, from a technology, that kind of standpoint, money standpoint, I feel like there's still, like, there's still a transitioning period, in terms of maybe mentality, stuff like that. Like, you know, for example, um, you know, not good or bad, like, a lot of the stuff I talked about are constructs, right? Like, nothing is good, nothing is bad, just kind of what it is. But like you still see people like on the on the sidewalks of Beijing, that maybe do things that one culture might be like, whoa, like, what's going on? Like your jaws dropping that sort of thing. I'm not getting get into that here. But I get into it on my, on my other show, relentless, which is coming out, starting to come out in another month or two. Chozie Ma 5:49 Right. Brian Schoenborn 5:50 But there are things that might make your jaw drop, right, we're just like, but it's because it's so far removed from what you're used to with your culture in your constructs. Yeah, you know. But I just think it's interesting. As you know, things are happening. Things are changing whatever. Chozie Ma 6:04 Well you got to. I mean, that's the whole point of travel. Right? You want your jaw to drop. Brian Schoenborn 6:08 Right? Chozie Ma 6:08 Good or bad. Brian Schoenborn 6:09 That's, I mean, that's the thing, right? Chozie Ma 6:10 You're going to go somewhere and be like, Did you see that? Oh, wow, look at that, you know, it's just part of the whole cultural experience. Brian Schoenborn 6:16 Absolutely. Chozie Ma 6:16 And especially taking your kids out there and seeing just saying, you open your mind is the world like closed off into one bubble, right? Explore, travel. Brian Schoenborn 6:25 Dude, absolutely. Like, I'll never forget. The first time I came back to America. When I moved to Beijing. I grew up in a small town in Michigan, right. And so I so I went back and I bumped into this lady that I knew from a very young age, and she goes, Oh, Brian, she's like, What are you up to these days? What are you doing? And I go, Oh, you know, I'm living in China right now. I'm living in Beijing. And she goes, she looks me. She's like, China? China? Brian, I'm so scared for you. What do you are safe Ba ba ba ba it's communist Brian, all this stuff. I look at her husband, her husband standard that I look at I go Actually, it's pretty amazing country. I mean, it's super safe, feel safe. Chozie Ma 6:44 Yeah, real safe. Brian Schoenborn 7:03 People are welcoming. You know, if you try if you take a stab at learning a language that goes miles, you know, it goes such a long way. You know, it's a good time. And then her husband's like, brothers like, honey, you know, I was stationed in Japan and the Navy, right? He's like, I bet he's having the time of his life. Chozie Ma 7:25 I thought he was gonna say, Oh, honey, I have a Japanese wife. Or we have a half son now coming up. I mean, those things can happen. No, China is great. I mean, it's 22 years, as you said, and you know, I've seen it go from, you know, really, like I would say it wasn't really colorful when I was there. But it was exciting because I got there in 97 on a tour, and it was the last stop on an Asian tour. And we were in this club called Vogue 88. Henry Lee was the owner. And he basically just said, Why don't you move out here and take over my club? I was like 19 years old or something like that. Brian Schoenborn 8:06 Really? Chozie Ma 8:06 I had a crew called Yum Cha Cha. So there's five of us. We went back to Australia, we all looked at each other and said, why not? Brian Schoenborn 8:14 Fuck it. Chozie Ma 8:14 We're young, we can't speak the language. I mean, I'm Chinese, but I spoke Cantonese when I was growing. So when you move to China, it's Mandarin. And Cantonese was it was like non existent there. So it didn't really work. Brian Schoenborn 8:26 I mean, they're completely different languages. Chozie Ma 8:27 Totally different languages. So kind of were like, you know what, let's just give this a go. The crowd seemed quite International. It was it was it was like, you know, there wasn't that many foreigners there then. But every foreigner that was there was working for the embassy or a corporate job, right? Or students. And we were like, you know what, let's do it. So we went, we went through it. Three months later, we packed up things moved, Mom and Dad laughed. Dad's the Chinese that, you know, he's from that generation that left China back in the day, to give a better life to, you know, myself and himself. Brian Schoenborn 8:57 So he's like, what is this, some sick, sad joke? Chozie Ma 9:00 He was like, he'll be back. So they, they kept my car for about five years and then realized it's been five years keeping respect wasting space in the garage. Can we sell it. I'm like, yeah, go ahead, man. I'm already I'm settled here. So, so it's kind of funny because that generation, a lot of the kids, ABCs: American Born Chinese, Australian Born Chinese, Canadian Born Chinese. As they graduated and got older that you started seeing opportunity in China, and went back. And those times from like, 99 all the way to you know, the Olympics was just like this epic journey. Brian Schoenborn 9:33 2008 Olympics? Chozie Ma 9:33 2008 Olympics and it was just this epic journey of like, wow. And you could just use it as your oyster and do whatever you wanted if you had some creativity, and especially if you had something culturally valued valuable for the scene, dance scene or entertainment or like, you know, anything related to culture, culture and heritage, or bringing investment into China. Bringing foreign brands into China. Brian Schoenborn 9:58 Yep. Chozie Ma 9:59 You just kill it. Alright, so we're doing really well, I decided to go into the entertainment space and do clubs, music, things like that. And develop that that market, which has become more like, I look at it as probably one of the biggest in the world. Now, if you look at every DJ, they're all trying to go every Western artist is trying to collaborate with an Asian artist. Brian Schoenborn 10:15 Oh, absolutely. Chozie Ma 10:16 You know, so that's the volume, right? With volume comes money, monetizing products, things like that. Yeah, there's a lot of tricky things that go on in the market. But if you can maneuver through it. And I think the one thing that you just got to know about going to China is a lot of foreigners move there. They're still very hard headed, well, what would you call it? Brian Schoenborn 10:38 They're set in their ways. Chozie Ma 10:39 They're set in they're ways. Brian Schoenborn 10:40 Yeah, because I've lived in that bubble or whatever their culture is, and they expect everywhere to be just like that, right? Chozie Ma 10:45 So it's like, you know, maybe they have a good brand or a company or they've been bought out by a big expat company and getting that package that they didn't get somewhere else. The thing is, China's not going to change for you. You gotta change for China. Brian Schoenborn 10:57 Yeah, that's a hard lesson to learn. Tell you what, like I you know, because I think about you know, like I did a couple of or I had some I did some business in China myself. You know one thing I did, for example, was I produced this the soccer match right between Manchester United legends and Liverpool legends so these guys are 35 and up recently. Chozie Ma 11:18 Big game, I remember that. Brian Schoenborn 11:19 Big game, right? We put that on and we put out a four or five aside tournament Adelaide, and then an 11 a side friendly, in Melbourne. Chozie Ma 11:29 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 11:31 And we and then we live stream that into China and Europe and other places. And we worked with Tencent, which is one of the biggest like they're bigger than Facebook guys. Like there's 10 cents huge. Chozie Ma 11:38 $1 trillion company. Brian Schoenborn 11:41 Yeah, they're one of the big three tech companies in China. But we live streamed through them. Great, you know, big reception. They're like, Oh, this is one of the best live streams we've ever we've ever had as far as quality and all that stuff. Awesome. Can't wait to work with you more. So then I take that information like all right, these guys want to get into China, right? These players want to play a match in China. I get something setup where we're getting ready to do a deal in Shenzhen, near Shenzhen. I forget the name of that, I kind of blocked it out, because it's a bad experience. But in a city right next to Shenzhen which is one of the you know this is tech hub one of the big tech hubs, right? Like that's where Apple products are made and suck that's right right across the tributary from Hong Kong. Chozie Ma 12:23 Right. Brian Schoenborn 12:25 And I went down there and I you know, we're going to put on this match was gonna be great. met up with this guy. Four different times flew down the middle of the four times he's he puts me up in this hotel that he owns. This guy's a big businessman. We're drinking like crazy because that's that's an important part of Chinese culture, right? Chozie Ma 12:41 Oh, yeah. By the way, a lot of people think Chinese can't drink. Brian Schoenborn 12:44 Oh, no. That's not true. Chozie Ma 12:46 They get the Asian glow whatever. Oh, no, no, the ones that are born there. Especially Beijingers and the girls drinking a session with him we Chinese rice wine. Brian Schoenborn 12:53 Dude. Baijiu? Chozie Ma 12:54 They will put you under the table so hard. Brian Schoenborn 12:55 Oh my god, dude. But that's but that's the whole point. Right? Like part of the part of building relationships and China is all about, it's called guanxi, right? Chozie Ma 13:03 Face. Chozie Ma 13:03 It means relationships or face or whatever. And it's Chinese people would rather do business with people that they've got a strong relationship with versus Chozie Ma 13:10 Or just put them under the table and made them vomit and then they're like, Okay, cool. You can hang. Brian Schoenborn 13:14 Yeah, exactly. That's exactly that's how you build it. A lot of times you sit on this new set of these plastic chairs and tables outside a restaurant eating like, you know, 20 cents of stick, barbecue kebabs, chuar. Drinking cheap beer, out comes the baiju like 12, one o'clock in the morning is rice wine and which is like 40 to 60% alcohol like it's unregulated so it could be anywhere between there. Chozie Ma 13:39 Yeah, 60, yeah, definitely. It's strong. Brian Schoenborn 13:41 shot after shot after shot after shot there's no like there's no time wasted. Chozie Ma 13:48 Yeah, I'm glad I've got my mom's liver I say the the western side liver. Yeah, cuz I'm half half so that's helped me a lot drinking in China. Brian Schoenborn 13:57 But yeah, but so like, you know, I'm doing that whole thing with this guy. Big businessman, he's got connections to the stadium and the local government and like all the thing, checking off all the boxes that you really need to do to conduct business in China. And we get to a point where we sign the contract, he's got to give us a 10% down within a week or 10 days or something like that. We can secure the players. Sign the contract, dude never shows up. Disappears, disappears. No money sent, not responding to anything. And it's like, you know, that was one of the hard lessons I learned about doing business in China. Is that by Western standards, or at least American standards, I'm sure Aussie is not not too different. But like you get that contract signed, it's a done deal. Chozie Ma 14:37 Yeah, yeah. Brian Schoenborn 14:38 Right? Whereas in China, it's a different set of rules. Chozie Ma 14:41 Yeah, I've definitely it's definitely going down that route route many times. But it's that same saying, you know, you get knocked down, get up again, I'm already situated there. My house is there. My friends are there. Businesses there. Brian Schoenborn 14:54 Yeah. Chozie Ma 14:55 I've just learned over the years how to maneuver through it and it's and yeah, I've definitely lost investment and time. Time is the most important thing. Brian Schoenborn 15:04 Yeah. Chozie Ma 15:04 And, you know, it's it's, it sucks. But you just got to kind of learn how to be better than that. And I tell you over the last couple of years, the whole IP and legal system protection for that is it's really good. Brian Schoenborn 15:19 Oh, dude, it's gotten a lot better over the last few years. Chozie Ma 15:21 They just really they've smartened up and it's like, this is business, get it done. The shitty part is like when you are pitching for a job, like in one of my businesses, which is the event business. Obviously, a lot of proposal work needs to be done. Brian Schoenborn 15:33 Yeah. Chozie Ma 15:34 So a lot of these companies or clients have different departments, like procurement departments. And they're very traditional. So you might have a full Western team, say, for example, in Volkswagen or something like that you're in a big Western company. So when you meet with them, you get the job you're talking to, obviously the more Western minded simio and things like that, sure. Love your technology. They love that your Western and Chinese and they love that you get the concept. Yep, boom, okay, I'm going to launch this and you're going to do this and that and like Yes, I'm going to do it. That for you. And I'm going to do that for you. Chozie Ma 16:02 And then it trickles down through the system to procurement in the German they usually bring in because it's kind of I think it's legal when you have, it's the law that you have to have a local Chinese as your, your finance department, to head that department right to sign the bills. And that person is trained in a way where the job is to save money for the company at all costs and save money, which means: no, I don't understand that concept, why is it cost that much? Because I can go online and look for I can go to five other companies and they say it costs this much, because other companies are trying to take your idea or they're fake faking the, the tech or something like that, the smaller companies. Brian Schoenborn 16:36 Uh huh. Chozie Ma 16:36 And so you get into these things where it's like now the budgets low and then this a few months later goes back to the big boss, and they call you, Hey, why are you Why have they changed the company? or Why are you not doing the job? You know, you said that this was way too expensive…and he's like, but I approved it and then and then it goes back again. So most companies will have like a second budget because of that fuckup. Brian Schoenborn 16:55 Right, right. Chozie Ma 16:56 And so they kind of like contingency, they know that that's going to happen. So that's a little bit tiring, but it is getting better. What I found is when I, we were doing all the proposals, we're a smaller boutique team. So we spent a lot of time and you know, proposals to that magnitude, the 3d they renders the videos that cost you about, you know, $20,000 to make good decent proposal, but you're getting a million dollar job. Brian Schoenborn 17:18 Right. Chozie Ma 17:18 Or a $2 million job at the end of it. Brian Schoenborn 17:19 Right. you know, that's a modest investment. Chozie Ma 17:20 It makes it makes sense. Yeah, but you don't know that. That's gonna wait, they keep asking you to change it. Someone's uncle has an event company, that's… Brian Schoenborn 17:28 That's the guanxi all over again. Chozie Ma 17:30 That person, right? So you're gonna like shit, then then your event pops up with all your ideas. And, you know, this is what I went through years ago. Brian Schoenborn 17:39 It still happens though. Chozie Ma 17:39 It still happens, but we just instead of going for it, my partner I just said, You know what, let's just deal with the ones that put a designer feet down. Put that basically that 10% down before. Brian Schoenborn 17:53 Yeah. Chozie Ma 17:53 And then if we get the job will deduct that from the main fee. So if you even take it away from me, at least I can pay for myself. If I can pay for my time. Brian Schoenborn 18:01 Yeah, exactly. Chozie Ma 18:02 I lost more than 50% of my clients when I started doing that. Brian Schoenborn 18:05 Oh, sure. Chozie Ma 18:05 Because they're like, oh shit, we can get free work from all these agencies, there's about 100 interns that are doing free work for them. Right? And then they're okay with that, because they've got so many other jobs. So we tailored it down, we lost a lot of clients, but then we just filtered it to good clients, and they're more than happy to give us that 10% because they know we're going to do the work for them. Brian Schoenborn 18:23 Yeah, exactly. Chozie Ma 18:24 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 18:25 You know, if you're dealing with good client, legit companies, ones that understand the value of good design or, you know, high quality work, I think, you know, things that anybody can do, like, anyone can say, Hey, I'm gonna put a proposal together, right? But it's the design element, it's the craft work. It's the expertise that, you know, comes with a long, you know, many years of experience, many years of success and being able to develop your own personal brand to, right? On top of all that, I mean, that's kind of where, where there's a separation, right and yet, good companies will see that and they'll say, okay, we're willing to put that kind of money down because this person or this company, whatever has consistently been able to produce, right? Chozie Ma 19:08 And this and the speed of efficiency, everything right? There's no other uncle's company involved. I mean, but again that guanxi things is super, super important thing in China. It is all about face. And it is all about, like having that connection. And I think how I got those connections is I started, well, I went to Taiwan in 2000 with Avex records. Brian Schoenborn 19:33 Okay. Chozie Ma 19:33 I got sent over with the manager. And then he was just trying to pimp me off to different record labels. So I was just kind of like new to the music business. I've been DJing for many years. I wasn't really fucking with record labels, and I could write music, and I was already doing TV on Channel V. And then he was just like, he was literally pimping me from Sony to BMG to hear and that and then was sending me these 60, 70 page contracts in Chinese and they kind of knew I couldn't read Chinese. Brian Schoenborn 20:00 Oh shit. So they're like, sign your life away. Chozie Ma 20:02 He was saying sign sign sign. And this is like 10 year contracts, and I'm thinking that's= a bit weird. Now everyone signs 10 years and that's just really crazy? But um they didn't realize that my father after a few of these different careers he decided to study law and he's an academic scholar so he studied the entertainment law, pharmacy law, everything kind of law. So his way of saying well he's a traditional Chinese man so he doesn't really say, I love you son, and give you a hug. But his way of saying I love you is like send me that contract let me review it for you. So these major record labels didn't know I had that ammunition behind me. Brian Schoenborn 20:36 The secret weapon. Chozie Ma 20:37 And he just go through it and just rip it apart and send it back and then look at it and be like, Yeah, no, we can't sign this you know, he knows too much about it. So the manager was getting pissed. He's just kind of like, I'm gonna lose my my meal ticket here because he was just literally like, that's what he wanted from me. Brian Schoenborn 20:55 Oh, yeah. Cuz I mean, he's, he gets you signed and he gets his contingency fee or whatever. Right? Chozie Ma 20:59 Yeah, and and I was young and naive I didn't know the extent of the deal. He was probably signing the 80% of my royalties to him, I didn't know I was 20 something, right? And then I made a pretty famous celebrity there, this girl and she and we just within a week started dating and then within two weeks I moved in with her and she's like massive star. I didn't really know who she was, like, that's why I think she's she liked me because I didn't give a fuck about celebrities and and they will use that because I had my club in China two years before that. Chozie Ma 21:26 And all the celebrities: Quentin Tarantino, Oliver Stone. Everyone would come there, it was like the Viper Room of Beijing where everything went, right? Brian Schoenborn 21:32 Nice. Chozie Ma 21:33 So but I never talked like whatever I saw whatever was happening there I just was like treating everyone like a normal person so that's where it made a lot of artists want to work with me. Brian Schoenborn 21:41 Yeah. Chozie Ma 21:41 Oh shit, you're DJing? Maybe you want to write a track with me? Oh, let's do that. So kind of went along. and a month later Avex Records from Japan just kind of hit me up personally. Yo, we want to work with you. I'm like, yeah, I'm kind of turned off by the whole music thing you know, and it's all this melancholy tired like Taiwanese pop and Chinese pop. At that time, there wasn't really much dance music. The Pop is not even, like, pop it was like everything was sad song… Brian Schoenborn 22:06 Like sad love song. Chozie Ma 22:08 Everything was a love song, and I'm like shit. You want me to get in this game I want to, I want to change it. I'm wanna perform some house music, some breakbeat like, they looked at me and they're very progressive. Avex is a big progressive record and they had a label called house nation which was like all these cool Japanese female DJs and it's doing cool stuff trance that are in club. So they're like, What do you want? And luckily, the girl I was dating at the time, her team advised me on a few things. So I was very fortunate that they helped me they just said just do one year, one album deal with option to sign on for other deal, like other, but you're free. Own the royalties. They gave it to me. It was like what? After that, those people kind of clued up, and they're like, we're gonna sign this stuff for 10 years. Brian Schoenborn 22:50 Yeah, right. They're like we're locking him. Chozie Ma 22:52 Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna invest this much. If he doesn't make enough his first album. He's gonna work for us. He's even if he that album doesn't work. He's gonna work in the office writing songs for the next artist. Brian Schoenborn 23:00 Oh, really? Chozie Ma 23:00 Yeah, you brought, you owe money to the record labels. Like, if, everyone's hungry in China in Asia, right? And you're good looking. And you can write a song. But you can't act, you need to be a triple threat. They need to make revenue off you from everything, right? So a lot of these artists would come in, they invest a couple hundred thousand, the album would come out, wouldn't do so well. And then you'd find them just sitting, like they've got to pay off their debt. So they're still working. It sucks for a lot of people. Brian Schoenborn 23:26 That's crazy man. Chozie Ma 23:27 You know? So now the new Brian Schoenborn 23:28 Can you imagine what a slap in the face that would be? Like, I mean, you were you were successful. So you I don't think you've experienced that, right? But can you imagine… Chozie Ma 23:35 I saw it. Brian Schoenborn 23:37 I mean, me like somebody Yeah, somebody like one of your buddies or whatever, right? Like, maybe they had like an album that maybe a one hit wonder or something right? Like that one song went, but then everything else just kind of shit the bed and you see them sitting, sitting behind a computer, or whatever, you know, like Chozie Ma 23:52 It's tough. I mean, when we started label in 97 called Party People Committee. It was the first dance labeled in China for electronic and hip hop, and one of my boys that was coming up, amazing writer, composer, producer, rapper. He can rap in Chinese, English, and even in German, like awesome. Young Kin, his name is. When that happened, they promised him to release his album and mine at the same time with dance and Hip Hop one. They went with mine and unfortunately, he didn't get it. But he worked it. He worked and pushed me. And then, you know, you could see it. He wanted it. Like, you know, oh shit it's my time. Brian Schoenborn 23:53 Yeah, yeah, for sure. Chozie Ma 24:18 I've worked so hard at this shit and I'm talented, but young writing. He just flipped the switch. He just said, You know what, I'm still young, and I'm fucking great. I'm gonna go get my MBA. And then everyone looked at him going, you're gonna fucking own a record label. Now this guy's like, moved to Boston. still writing music, has a flipping house company, a real estate agency, killing it. You know what I mean? So he turned it into a positive a lot of other people just get depressed and be like, shit, man. I was I was good at that. All right, and then I've got this shows you your character. You've just got to fucking keep keep going man. Brian Schoenborn 25:02 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, man. Chozie Ma 25:03 You'll get that break. Yeah, it's just tough. Brian Schoenborn 25:06 But it's one of those things like, whether it's the music business or whether it's like, film and TV or this shit or anything you do, right? Like, it's not, it's not about how many times you fall or get kicked in the face or whatever. It's about how it's how you respond to that. Brian Schoenborn 25:21 Right? It's like, how do you get up? Do you get up and say, okay, that was a fucking speed bump. I'm going to get over that shit and move forward, because this is what I want to do. Chozie Ma 25:21 Right. Chozie Ma 25:28 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 25:29 Or does it happen so many times where you just like, all right, maybe this isn't for me. Maybe I should shift gears a little bit. You know, maybe this passion of mine is more of a hobby. Right? Or for whatever reason it's not working. Go another route. You know? Chozie Ma 25:44 Yeah, the girl that was like we had to do my album in 2007. And we had an artist coming from Taiwan, but she was a good friend of mine. She was like, Yeah, cool. I want to jump on your album. It's the first solo album in China for dance music. I love to be part of it. Then her mom, being the manager, found out that we were under kind of a bigger label. She saw some dollar signs. And we couldn't afford her at the last minute. She's like, I'm so sorry, man, at the end of the day, the managers getting there. And yeah, we can't do anything. We can give you a mate rate, but that's about it. Still expensive, because she's bit star. And we had the studio booked and we only had one month to use. And a friend came in and said, Look, there's this girl. She's still currently signed to a 10 year, she's still got about four years left on that, but she hasn't been doing anything because she got screwed over by the record label. But she can come sing vocals on you just you know, don't really mention her artist's name because her artist name is still owned by a label, right? Brian Schoenborn 26:39 But do you put your actual name? Chozie Ma 26:41 Just put her name. Brian Schoenborn 26:41 Or do you just anonymize it? Chozie Ma 26:43 Put her actual name, because she had an artist name but what's your actual name? And then we did that and she killed it. She came in the studio. I gave her the song, the lyrics and I just said you know what, just keep record on. She nailed it. I didn't even record the second take. We just edited over it. I was like, wow, this girl's great. Brian Schoenborn 26:58 Yeah. Chozie Ma 26:58 I like I have four more songs. With female vocals, could you do this for me? No worries. I'd love to do it so she smashes this out. Then she goes kind of dark for a while she she's still doing music. She's playing in club gigs with a little band stuff. Just you know keeping it going keeping her passion. Brian Schoenborn 27:13 Yep. Chozie Ma 27:13 Once that four year contract lifted off those record labels way. She, she was just like, boom and then…now her name's Tia Ray. I'm not sure if you heard her she's massive. Massive. Brian Schoenborn 27:25 Huge in China. Chozie Ma 27:26 She just stuck through it. Brian Schoenborn 27:27 Yeah. Chozie Ma 27:27 But she could see how hard that is. You know, you you you're stuck when you have with all these opportunities and you get out of it. Brian Schoenborn 27:33 Yeah. Chozie Ma 27:33 But she waited and now she prevailed and she's killing it to her respect to have and thank you for coming on my album. Brian Schoenborn 27:40 Shout out to Tia Ray, man. Chozie Ma 27:41 That's it. Brian Schoenborn 27:42 Respect. Chozie Ma 27:42 But um, you know, it's it's the industry it's and obviously now it's become so big, that they got all the…What is it? There's multi big groups with over like 10 guys or… Brian Schoenborn 27:53 Oh, yeah. BTS for example, there's like 8 dudes or something like that? Chozie Ma 27:56 Yeah, obviously before it was Japan…Taiwan would follow Japan, so they were the trendsetters and then China will follow the Taiwan. And now Taiwan's kind of fading out a bit. They're still good. They still got they still got their stars and megastars. But now China's started to create their own culture. Brian Schoenborn 28:11 Yeah. Chozie Ma 28:12 With hip hop. And hip hop, it's becoming huge. I mean, it's huge. But they creating their own culture. Brian Schoenborn 28:17 Yeah. Chozie Ma 28:18 Which is great, because it was more of a copy before. Brian Schoenborn 28:20 Oh, of course. Well, you know, I mean, that's kind of what China does, though. Or they've done you know, everyone thinks Oh, copycat China. But, you know, a lot of what they've done with that opening is like, they just haven't had, they haven't experienced a lot of these things. So a lot of it's like bringing this stuff in. Chozie Ma 28:33 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 28:33 Kind of learning about it. And then taking it and making it their own. Chozie Ma 28:37 Yeah, right. It could be done so wrong in so many ways. Brian Schoenborn 28:40 Yeah, for sure. Chozie Ma 28:41 But at least now they've kind of they, they did it that way, then I think the government saw it was becoming too adapted from the American or Western hip hop culture, in ways of like, maybe they'll word it's kind of getting too out of control. Brian Schoenborn 28:55 Yeah. Chozie Ma 28:56 So they kind of banned it for a minute which is really crazy, right? Who bans hip hop like they banned the stuff. But they banned it and then they kind of cleaned it, right? So they cleaned it in a way. So now the guys that are on these big shows like China's Got Hip Hop, or, like, you know, these these kind of big shows, then now seen as like the ambassador's of clean hip hop. Brian Schoenborn 29:16 Yeah. Well, right. Because, because when they banned it was a couple of years ago, there's like that the China's Got Hip Hop show or whatever, right? Chozie Ma 29:22 Yeah, yeah, right. Brian Schoenborn 29:22 Like there was, I think the winner was like singing about like, I don't know, drugs, or gangs, or whatever it was, I mean, who knows whether he like actually meant the words that he was saying, or whether it was just taking the influence from Western hip hop culture, but it was something like that. And China's like, drugs, nope. Banned. This is bad for our culture. We don't want anything to do with hip hop and you're right, who does that? But…China can do that. Chozie Ma 29:45 It's hard because he pop is an expression of that. Right? Of what you want to say and and the street, you know, kind of Brian Schoenborn 29:51 Right. Yeah. Yeah. Chozie Ma 29:52 So I think that, you know, they've got now the commercial, pop hip hop, where they kind of just keep it a bit more tame. They go on the edges of things, but has made the underground scene so much stronger. So you got you got the clubs that are doing like these big nights and the tours with these, the hip hop groups, and they're still hardcore and good, because I think they do it more like online, where it's not on TV. When it's on TV, when it hits TV, it has to have that little bit more edge, you know, it's a bit more cleaner. So that's good because it created this whole subculture that's becoming very popular and you can see like the, you know, you go to Chengdu and you'd swear you think you're in Mexico, like everyone's kind of tatted up and… Brian Schoenborn 30:32 Really? Chozie Ma 30:33 They've just adapted that culture the style and they've got their own fashion brands that are using it and they're walking around with the pitbulls and all this kind of stuff, but it's that, and they got all the girls that follow them and it's this kind of thing and it's it's more of a fashion thing. That's their that's their lane and then they've got you know, everyone's subculture is becoming more defined. Brian Schoenborn 30:51 Yeah, yeah. Chozie Ma 30:51 And your crews are becoming more defined as electronic music you know all these kind of everything's got us got a scene now, huh? Yeah, solid seen a money making scene now. Brian Schoenborn 31:00 Yeah, for sure. Yeah, sure. That's crazy. I've never been to Chendu, man. Like that's one of the places where like, I really wanted to go when I was over there, you know on a consistent basis. I mean I just haven't made my way. I think I'm gonna get back there soon so yeah, it's supposed to be really cool i mean that's pandas are, right? Chozie Ma 31:17 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 31:18 Kind of mountainous it's like a small city of what 15, 20 million people? Chozie Ma 31:26 It's a small city. Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 31:27 Spicy food. I mean, that's, that's why I love that's my favorite food is like the, you know, spicy hot pot. You know, malaxiangguo. Chozie Ma 31:36 Oh. It's a it's spicy. Oh, yeah. You gotta be prepared for that. Yeah, yeah. Brian Schoenborn 31:40 Yeah, I've met so many chunky girls like all Brian, they're like, Can you eat spicy food and I'm like, give it to me. And they're like, they're always so impressed. I'm like, as you know… Chozie Ma 31:49 and because this a beautiful too. So when they say can you eat spicy onion? Yeah. The next day I was like, yeah, to to your assistant. I think you need to cancel my meetings. Just keep me close to a toilet. Brian Schoenborn 32:01 Exactly. That Chengdu spice is always a good idea coming in, but it's never a good idea coming out. Chozie Ma 32:11 It's it's real tough. Yeah. I mean, there's other food there, people, but like, it's just yeah, you gotta definitely try this. Brian Schoenborn 32:22 That's funny. You were saying earlier, you got the best selling dance album of all time in Taiwan and China, is that what that is? Chozie Ma 32:31 It was about 2002. When I was at Avex, so they gave me that idea. Brian Schoenborn 32:36 Yeah. Chozie Ma 32:37 I could have gone with, you know, so many options, but I thought, well, I'm playing house music and house is kind of new in Taiwan. Breakbeat hadn't reached Taiwan yet. So like Finger Licking, Stenton Warriors, you know, like, so Adam Freeland, like it was just kind of really cool. Brian Schoenborn 32:54 Yeah. Chozie Ma 32:54 Nu-school breaks. Basics is funky and it's got beats and it's just vocals and, so I was doing like three turntables sets and clubs and it's just mixing it up mashing it up. So the album itself is is one is, it's an EP of my Isle Formosa which is the first dance album, a dance song with a music video for an artist in Taiwan for dance music. Brian Schoenborn 33:16 Nice. Chozie Ma 33:16 In that category. And then the second CD was full live three turntable break beat mix for an hour. And then the third one was a live house mix of some of my favorite artists in the world but house music funky house vocal house classic house. Brian Schoenborn 33:33 Yeah, all of this would be called EDM now. Chozie Ma 33:35 Well, yeah, I mean, electronic dance music. Back then. Like, and still to this day, but you know, we had styles okay. That's a techno DJ. That's breakbeat DJ. That's a trance DJ. All that stuff, yeah. Brian Schoenborn 33:47 Jungle. Chozie Ma 33:47 Jungle, drum and bass. Everyone was defined, or like, this guy's a bit more versatile that Carl Cox, he can play everything. Brian Schoenborn 33:54 Yeah. Chozie Ma 33:54 He's known as the techno DJ, but the guy will go and fucking smash the classics of the house or hip hop. You know? It's more about being versatile. But as time went on, and I think just society dumbing down into things and just needed things more simplified. People came up with oh let's just call it EDM but that that EDM came up with that whole like that Ultra sound or that, like it's more of that yeah very commercial media. Brian Schoenborn 34:19 Right. Chozie Ma 34:20 It's not techno, it's not trance. It's not this. I don't know what is this is noise to me. Everybody fucking jump. There's no like this for me. There's no talent in that I like to see a DJ that actually produces something or like they're sets are not programmed. Brian Schoenborn 34:34 Right. Chozie Ma 34:34 Um, you know, so I kind of went a little bit disappointed in that culture. But then a good friend of mine that does some pretty big festivals and clubs in around the world. He basically was just like, look, it's still a business. Brian Schoenborn 34:47 Yeah. Chozie Ma 34:47 People are into it. I'm like, fuck, how do I flip the switch. I'm definitely not going to DJ this stuff. Brian Schoenborn 34:52 Well, right. Because if you're I mean, if you're not feeling, the creativity of that, or the creation of that, I mean, you still you made it but you've been in the business for you. Right. I mean, you can still flip that the mindset right and still, you know, rather than being in the creativity side of it, you can be more on the promotion or… Chozie Ma 35:09 Yeah, or be more of us behind the scenes in the tech. Because, I have a tech company, right? So we originally using those for high end events and projections and mapping and stuff like that. So like, why don't we just design the festivals and give tools to these EDM DJs? Brian Schoenborn 35:25 Oh, hell yeah, dude. Chozie Ma 35:25 Like, even though I don't like the music, but hey, why don't we make it more visually, right? Brian Schoenborn 35:30 You can help create the experience. Chozie Ma 35:32 Right? So if you look at it, like ultra know that they started a bit more, they went really big with it, Tomorrowland, big EDM sound, but then they started adding all the different stages. Carl Cox has rennaisance in there, which is doing more techno so then it's obviously like people for first few years. They're listening to the EDM, but then they'll they'll venture over to that stage. They're like, Oh, this is all right. So then the slowly changing and you can see it in the scene that it's moving. People are kind of like steering away. They want more quality and technology. They want more trance. IOr they want more this. So just giving them the promoters giving them more options. Brian Schoenborn 36:03 Yeah. Chozie Ma 36:03 It's better. If it's just giving them one sound and dumbing down the whole world. This is what it is. And unfortunately that's what happened in China. They didn't go through transition. They just went from Oh, let's just stop all house and techno most of the big clubs now and just put in these mainstream are because he's number one, that must be the music right now, or number two and that's what the sound is, noise. Right? So these clubs just followed it but now you can see it's been going like that for a couple of years in China. They're slowly sleeping in every now and then they'll flow in a really good techno DJ, or a really good underground DJ, and people are like digging it they're feeling it, oh this is good. I don't have to just stand there and from my hand in the air I like I can actually groove I can actually feel it you know kind of thing. So it's good. But yeah, we just and obviously the DJ's are all programmed. So they like the big festivals. And I get it because you paying so much money for the ticket. And the DJ needs to know when the fireworks is gonna go off, and it needs to queue and everything's queued up. And so it's very kind of rehearsed. But that's what like a normal concert is anyway, like if you went to Madonna whenever you're painting that she's live, but she knows exactly how cute. So that's how the, you know the big EDM DJ is emergency cue DJs. Brian Schoenborn 37:13 Yeah. Chozie Ma 37:13 So last year in Macau, we will part of, we designed an EDM festival could Jigsaw, some big names, Steve Aoki, all those guys were up there. But what I noticed is from the rave days back in the day, the DJ would never stop. It'd be 12 hours non stop music. Chozie Ma 37:28 the Djs would just go into play on play on blue yonder. And each DJ knew that they knew their time. If you're a warm up your warm up, yeah, if you're 10 pm, you're 10pm. Don't bang out music like it's 4am. A lot of these days in Asia, in China especially, I'll be doing my main set at 1am, and a new DJ would come in and he'd be like, shit, I'm gonna bang a 3am set out before Chozie goes on and I'm just like, dude, you're killing me here, mate. You know what I mean? So that's where we come into most DJs will have their warm up DJ tour with them, because they know this guy's gonna warm it up well, and it's respectful to be a warm up DJ for someone. Or if you're closing after someone, you close out for them. Brian Schoenborn 37:28 Yeah, sure. Brian Schoenborn 38:04 It's like an opening act like the comedy stage, or the band, you know, whatever. Chozie Ma 38:07 Exactly. Yeah, a lot of bedroom bangers, a lot of the younger DJ and I get that. Yeah, it's a transition it takes time. So this festival, we had, you know, 7, 8, 7, big name DJs. And each one of them had like a 10 to 12 minute gap between each show for changeover. I'm like, you know what, man, let's just keep the flow going. Brian Schoenborn 38:24 Yeah. Chozie Ma 38:25 But how do we do that? Because they're still gonna do the change of a sub kind of set up a whole hologram system. And I had DJs, two DJ is on left and right, DMC scratch styles and, we produced the technology where when the DJ scratches, we've got a camera on a hand and she can control the eight foot high hologram, so he or she's scratching. Brian Schoenborn 38:43 Oh really? Chozie Ma 38:44 I mean, the middle on drum pads. So we like we produce these 10 minute, 12 minute segment shows so the audience would just see this flow going through and then the next DJ would be ready then goes on. You know, so there was this awesome interaction of immersive experience. Because I think people are getting bored at these big festivals now like it's the same, same thing. Brian Schoenborn 39:04 It's the same shit. Chozie Ma 39:04 It's the same DJ, same DJs, at these festivals, but like they just reversing that sets around or the next stage is playing something similar or something like that. So I think I think now people just need more, more interaction. That's why bringing more technology into the shows is very important these days, people like now getting smarter. I think I think it got dumbed down. And now it's getting smarter because they're getting so big. Brian Schoenborn 39:25 Well, it's kind of like it gets dumbed down because that's, as much as I hate to say it, it's kind of like, you bring it down to a level where a lot of people can understand, right? A lot of people just easily get it. Then they come in and then as they get used to it, then you can start getting a little more nuanced with it or whatever. Brian Schoenborn 39:42 Getting a little smarter about it. Do you have do you have? Can you show me something like? Chozie Ma 39:42 Right. Chozie Ma 39:47 Oh, yeah, yeah, I can put up with those videos. I'll give them to you. Brian Schoenborn 39:49 Yeah. Chozie Ma 39:50 We can send some links up. Brian Schoenborn 39:51 Okay. Sure. Yeah, no, I'd love to check some of that stuff. Chozie Ma 39:53 Yeah, it's very cool. Brian Schoenborn 39:54 So this Jigsaw? Chozie Ma 39:56 Yeah, it was in Macau. So it was the second year. So we just Brian Schoenborn 39:59 When was that? Chozie Ma 40:00 That was December. Not, ninth last year. Brian Schoenborn 40:03 Oh, so a year ago. Chozie Ma 40:04 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 40:05 Okay. Chozie Ma 40:05 So we, we will not be selector of the artists and we were the design team and the production team. So we came up with this, I have always I've always had this idea of designing a rave, but in a super high end concept so that the VIP areas were like, made it look like a TV rooms like that. Brian Schoenborn 40:25 Oh, sweet. Chozie Ma 40:25 So they were like they were made out of velvet, and they had all these crazy stuff. You had your own bar in each one. And so on the main stage on the left and right, I built to 60 meter VIP booths built into the stage. So you're on the same level as the stage but you can't get in like you've got a glass barrier. Brian Schoenborn 40:43 Oh, yeah. But you're that close though. Chozie Ma 40:45 But you're that close. And they went for a million renminbi each table and they were the first tables to sell out. Brian Schoenborn 40:50 What? Dude. Chozie Ma 40:50 In Asia whenever you got the highest table. It sells out the first… Brian Schoenborn 40:54 Wow. Chozie Ma 40:55 …and you can have I think it was 70 guests. Came with drinks. Came with girls. came with…it's Macau. Brian Schoenborn 41:00 Yeah, that's nuts. Chozie Ma 41:01 Came with everything. So they sold out. You had those and then it went down into different tiers. So you had like the end. I think it was 800,000 and the 500,000, then the four then two, and then one and 40,000, something like that. So but it was designed in the Venetian Convention Center. Massive. Brian Schoenborn 41:04 Oh yeah, dude, the Venetian's huge in Macau. Chozie Ma 41:21 It's the biggest… Brian Schoenborn 41:21 It's so big. Chozie Ma 41:22 I think its biggest, biggest Hotel in the world or something like that. Brian Schoenborn 41:24 It might be, yeah. Chozie Ma 41:25 13,000 rooms or something. Brian Schoenborn 41:26 Yeah, it's huge. Chozie Ma 41:27 The Convention Center is massive. So we were like, I wanted to feel like a rave. Because that's where my passion comes from. Brian Schoenborn 41:33 Yeah. Chozie Ma 41:33 But like you wanted to give it that super high end service. Brian Schoenborn 41:36 Yeah. Chozie Ma 41:37 So we went in, and we just, we just did this crazy design and made it all cool. And it was cool, man, people just like digging it. But I had that rave feel. Brian Schoenborn 41:44 Yeah. Chozie Ma 41:45 The technology and the Holograms and the lasers. And the LED is all over the place and interactive tables for ordering drinks and stuff like that. So it's cool. So we're just tried to take that technology to another level. Brian Schoenborn 41:56 Yeah, I want to back up a second. I just want to explain because a lot of the listeners are Western, so maybe they haven't been to China. So I want to explain a couple of things real quick. So first, he's talking about selling a table for 1 million RMB. That's Chinese, that's the Chinese currency. If you…rough, rough. Chozie Ma 42:12 Rough conversion? Brian Schoenborn 42:15 Is probably about 200,000ish? $200,000, something like that? Chozie Ma 42:24 143,000 for one table. Brian Schoenborn 42:27 143,000 for one table, right? That's, that's ridiculous. That's ridiculously expensive. Okay? So that's the first thing. Second thing is he's talking about how it's kind of KTV styled. Right? So KTV is not really a big thing in America. Chozie Ma 42:41 Right, right. Brian Schoenborn 42:42 Yeah, you might find out a few spots. Like there's a couple of spots in LA, a couple of spots in New York, really where they were the Asian populations are, you might find a few here and there. But KTV guys essentially, like Americans know karaoke, right? Chozie Ma 42:54 Right. Brian Schoenborn 42:54 The karaoke that we're used to is we go to a bar and there's a karaoke night. So like one night, there's a microphone and the words and like one person at a time sings in front of the entire bar and, you know, in front of strangers and whatever else, right? KTV is just like that. Except there's, there's these buildings like in China, there's these buildings all over the place with dozens of rooms. Chozie Ma 43:16 Like three, 400 rooms. Brian Schoenborn 43:18 Three, 400 rooms in one building. And each room has its own karaoke place. Tables, couches, three microphones, just you and your friends or whatever it is, you know, it could be anywhere between like two and like 20 people something like that. Chozie Ma 43:32 Yeah, you got small rooms and you got themed rooms. Brian Schoenborn 43:34 You sit around you play games, and you drank. Chozie Ma 43:36 Oh, then there's even a free buffet. Like you got meal times. Brian Schoenborn 43:40 Yeah, it's it's super like it can be super cheap to like, you can pay like 20 bucks for like four hours. Chozie Ma 43:45 Yeah, yeah definitely. Brian Schoenborn 43:45 Something like that. But KTV is a huge thing in China. So when he's talking about doing these super high end KTV rooms, right next to the stage, you know, separated by nothing but a glass wall. Chozie Ma 43:57 Well just kind of like a fence. Brian Schoenborn 43:58 Yeah, whatever. It is. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's like, that's like the perfect thing for like that crowd. Chozie Ma 44:05 You know, you've, you've kept the KTV experience to the listeners very PG. Brian Schoenborn 44:09 Oh yeah. Chozie Ma 44:10 So there's a, Brian Schoenborn 44:11 There's dirty KTV too, of course. Chozie Ma 44:13 So the KTV that I designed off is not the dirty side, it's just that you've got these crazy rooms that are, you know, you still paying in up to like 20,000, $30,000 on a night and you go in there and it's like kind of very…hyou could all it gaudy. It's kind of like very velvety. Brian Schoenborn 44:33 Gaudy is a good word for it. Chozie Ma 44:33 And very like chandeliers and, Brian Schoenborn 44:36 Like a 1970s club. Chozie Ma 44:37 Yeah, so you've got that and then you've got the more modern ones. But then it comes in with you get girls. I mean, they come in and you can't sleep with them or anything like they're just hosts. Just like a strip club. Brian Schoenborn 44:48 They are hoooosts. Chozie Ma 44:48 They don't take the clothes off. They don't, you can't grab them. They just come in and they drink with you and they sing for you. Brian Schoenborn 44:54 Yeah. Chozie Ma 44:54 So it's more about a business entertainment. It's more about taking your clients there. Brian Schoenborn 44:58 Yeah. Chozie Ma 44:58 You're drinking there and all you take You just get to buddy thing you just go hang out. Brian Schoenborn 45:03 It's like the boys club kind of thing. Chozie Ma 45:05 It's a boy's club, but, in saying that, you think you think like maybe the wives and the girlfriends would get angry. But in China, they don't, because they have yadian, which is the KTV for women and Ya means Duck, so it's a duck house. So chicken means the girls in those places, this is a Chinese translation, so I'm not trying to say that to where it is and, and discuss people but it's just a translation. Brian Schoenborn 45:29 Yeah. Chozie Ma 45:29 So what I'm saying is that the men have their place to go for entertaining. And I'm telling you can't sleep with them. Brian Schoenborn 45:35 No, you don't, you don't. But the interesting thing about Chozie Ma 45:38 The women have their version. So they go out and have a girls night. Brian Schoenborn 45:42 Right? Right. Chozie Ma 45:42 And the guys go out and they have thier guy's night. Brian Schoenborn 45:43 And then they get these male or female hosts, whatever. Like I remember I've been to a couple of them too. And it's like right after you get situated in the KTV room, whoever works there, they open the door, just this parade of women goes through Chozie Ma 45:55 Yeah, the mama sun. Brian Schoenborn 45:58 Here comes this parade of women and basically, they're all pretty much wearing the same outfit, like the uniform, right? Chozie Ma 46:02 Yeah yeah yeah. Brian Schoenborn 46:03 But it's like this, you know, like I remember seeing like this little like, like dress like a yellowish dress, it was kind of form fitting at the top and maybe like a like a roughly thing. I don't want to say like a two two, that's a bit extreme, but you know, kind of like something like that. Chozie Ma 46:15 Yeah, their version of sexy. Brian Schoenborn 46:16 Fluffy or whatever. Where it's, you know, a little fluffier on the bottom. This is what I'm recalling. You know, it's been a year since I've been back, since I've been there. But yeah, so they bring out this parade of women and you basically you point and you pick pick which one you like, and they'll they'll hang out with you the whole night. And they'll pour drinks for you. Chozie Ma 46:32 I mean, it might some people might be getting put off by this but that they're not there. Brian Schoenborn 46:38 It's not it's not a brothel. Chozie Ma 46:39 Yeah, prostitution, there's a working there. Brian Schoenborn 46:42 It's just straight up entertainment. Chozie Ma 46:43 It's completely legal, like they've got benefits. It's a job you know, so so but it's like it is a good place for business and things. But my point is I they're very extravagant, the rooms, so I wanted to take that extravagance not the girls, the extravagance to a rave because I think the ballers that would buy that table are used to that kind of situation. So you have to dump like, you have to demographic, Brian Schoenborn 47:07 You got to go with what they like. Chozie Ma 47:08 With that like that like so I was like, how am I going to sell these tables for a million? Brian Schoenborn 47:11 Yep. Chozie Ma 47:12 Okay, the clientele the guys that go to these kind of places. As soon as I advertised that, that style of K, of that VIP they sold out in like a minute both of them. Brian Schoenborn 47:23 Hell yeah. Chozie Ma 47:24 You know what I mean? Like boom, done. And then all the VIP sold out, and so it's kind of like, all right, we're on the right track here and designing. So design has become a big thing for us for events and things like that. Brian Schoenborn 47:33 Well, that's cool, too. Because like once you have success with something like that, I mean, that concept that's gonna be pretty easy to duplicate, right? Chozie Ma 47:40 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 47:40 I mean, so then you're just like, okay. Chozie Ma 47:42 For us. We've done it once we got it. We want to do the next thing again. Brian Schoenborn 47:45 Sure, yeah. Chozie Ma 47:46 More tech into it, or we add more, but I think it's all comes down to service. I think the biggest thing lacking in festivals in China, no matter they've got the budgets and the people. The service seems to be a little bit off. So we try to spend a bit more time on training and investment on the on the server. So we tell our clients, you know what, maybe drop one of the DJs. And you got another couple hundred thousand there. Brian Schoenborn 48:09 Yeah. Chozie Ma 48:09 Like, let's put that into really good bar management, better drinks into better food, you know, because I think you need that. Brian Schoenborn 48:15 Real alcohol. Chozie Ma 48:16 Real alcohol. Exactly. Because there's been a lot of fake alcohol. Brian Schoenborn 48:18 There's a lot of fake alcohol in China. Chozie Ma 48:20 Yeah. So, you know, just like trying to make the experience better for people. And I think that's just, it just goes with anything. It should it should be like that. If you're paying for something good. You need to be that lead with what you pay for. Brian Schoenborn 48:34 Nice. So are you working on anything else experience wise right now? Chozie Ma 48:38 Yes. So. So I mean, people might be thinking, What was he talking about experience and DJing, so… Brian Schoenborn 48:44 No, that's, that's awesome. Like, it's incredible stuff because Chozie Ma 48:46 No, so I'm trying to get to where I'll experience the experience in the tech comes from. Brian Schoenborn 48:50 Oh, okay. Chozie Ma 48:51 So I have a company called Article Projects International. And we started in 1995 doing rave parties in Sydney. So it was Chris Sefton. The founder was just doing lasers. I was the kind of guy breaking into the warehouses and, and and bringing like the DJs and just doing these underground raves, right? Slowly making money as teenagers and turned it into a business. So we've started we've started doing attractions, entertainment venues, and Chris started developing more and more technologies and we became into, into Asia. We built the Fountain of Wealth in Singapore. Suntech City as an attraction, world's largest water screen projection mapping. Brian Schoenborn 49:27 Nice. Chozie Ma 49:28 And then we just kept going and going with in 2005, Zhang Yimou, the director of the Beijing 2008 Olympics and China's claim to fame of most famous director in China. Most respected. Brian Schoenborn 49:42 He was the one

DJ Chozie Ma is the top selling EDM artist in China and Taiwan. Chozie, an Australian by birth, has spent over 22 years in Beijing, building the EDM scene from scratch, beginning with clubs and albums, as well as partnering with the man behind the music at the Beijing 2008 Olympics, to VVIP travel experiences, interactive domes, and organic skincare and health solutions. He is a man of many hats and successful across many spectrums. We dive into his DJ, club and travel experience as well as his current enterprises in immersive dome experiences, VVIP travel, and organic skincare line Greener Ways Organic.

DJ Chozie Ma is the top selling EDM artist in China and Taiwan. Chozie, an Australian by birth, has spent over 22 years in Beijing, building the EDM scene from scratch, beginning with clubs and albums, as well as partnering with the man behind the music at the Beijing 2008 Olympics, to VVIP travel experiences, interactive domes, and organic skincare and health solutions. He is a man of many hats and successful across many spectrums. We dive into his DJ, club and travel experience as well as his current enterprises in immersive dome experiences, VVIP travel, and organic skincare line Greener Ways Organic.

Richard "Red" Brion is essentially an American ronin: a samurai without a master. Red has spent years in Navy intelligence, serving in Iraq, and years with Blackwater doing some crazy shit in Japan and Afghanistan. He's done quite a bit in Africa as well. And he's recently made the move over the last couple of years, taking his skills and experience from masterless warrior to hyperlocal, urban agriculture. As founder and CEO of Revolution Agriculture, Red is tackling the Global Food Security Problem through technology-enabled food production and land optimization. They have patented a system that makes it possible to grow virtually any crop, anywhere. Show Notes Revolution Agriculture Follow Red on LinkedIn Theme music by: Ruel Morales Audio Transcript Brian Schoenborn 0:01 Hello, Hello, everyone. Welcome friends. Our guest today is like an American ronin, which is essentially a samurai without a master. Red here has spent a lot of time in the Navy serving in Iraq over there. He has spent years with Blackwater, doing some crazy shit in Japan and Afghanistan and stuff like that. He's done quite a bit in Africa as well. And he's recently made the move, over the last couple of years, he's made the move from masterless warrior into hyperlocal, urban agriculture. Give it up for my friend, Richard Brian. Brian Schoenborn 0:52 My name is Brian Schoenborn. I am an explorer of people, places, and culture. In my travels, spanning over 20 countries across four continents, I've had the pleasure of engaging in authentic conversations with amazingly interesting people. These are their stories, on location and unfiltered. Presented by 8B Media, this is Half the City. Brian Schoenborn 1:21 This is fucking low-fi bro. It's just a couple of microphones in a goddamn recording studio, not even a studio. This is a makeshift this is this is a this is a private couch-filled office in a WeWork. There's nothing more to it. microphones Adobe Audition. I'm not going to tell you any more about that. But that's pretty much it. Richard Brion 1:48 I mean, it could be worse. We could we could be in a coffee shop trying to do this. It does happen. Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 1:53 Let me get that a litte closer. Richard Brion 1:54 Oh, getting up close and personal, now are we? Brian Schoenborn 1:57 Yeah, I mean, you want to keep it about a fist. You know just just like captures, you want to fist it. Brian Schoenborn 2:04 I'm greasing the gears right now. Richard Brion 2:10 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 2:13 So Richard, Red. I'm going to call you Red because we know. Richard Brion 2:18 Yeah make sense. Brian Schoenborn 2:19 We know the siutation. Richard Brion 2:19 I'm a ginger bastard anyway. Brian Schoenborn 2:21 This guy's fucking beard matches his grape. Richard Brion 2:26 Yeah pretty much there's, I was watching this thing the other day where…he's a YouTube star and he was making fun of the fact that he doesn't tan and he's like I just go from white to red and he's like, is tan the color after red because I never seem to get that far. Well, yeah, that's about the size of it when it comes to my head so Brian Schoenborn 2:46 I don't think I've ever seen you not red. Richard Brion 2:48 Yeah. The name fits. What can you What can I say? Brian Schoenborn 2:54 So dude, let's let's get into it a little bit. Um, you you were telling me the other day that you just came back from a couple of backpacking trips right? Richard Brion 3:03 Yeah, here in Washington State. Brian Schoenborn 3:05 Tell me about that. I want to hear about this. And then I want to go into that other stuff. Like, this is the most recent shit. So let's hear about this. Richard Brion 3:11 Yeah. So it was just a, there're backpacking trips in an area and then Alpine lakes wilderness here in Washington, you have to have a permit for, it's a lottery permit. And you get to spend, you know, between a couple of days and up near two weeks out there just kind of packing around seeing these really awesome Alpine lakes that, you know, are pretty much untouched and fairly pristine. The mountain goats are super aggressive up there. Brian Schoenborn 3:37 Really? Richard Brion 3:37 It's actually kind of funny. Yeah, they, they, for whatever reason, there's not a lot of naturally occurring salt and they're addicted to salt. So humans urinate, goats come and try to get the salt out of it. Brian Schoenborn 3:50 So they're drinking pee? Richard Brion 3:51 Yeah, basically. So they asked you to like… Brian Schoenborn 3:54 They're like fucking Bear Grylls! In animal form. Richard Brion 3:58 So basically, they they asked you to, you know, urinate on the rocks because it makes it so when the goats go after it, they don't decimate the plant life and everything else. Brian Schoenborn 4:06 So they encourage you to pee on the rocks? Richard Brion 4:08 Yes, so that it doesn't. So that way the goats don't end up tearing everything up. Brian Schoenborn 4:12 Nice. Richard Brion 4:12 But the funny thing is, is that goats have gotten so used to it that they're actually become a little bit aggressive about it trying to get as close to Brian Schoenborn 4:17 They're like, “Give me your pee!” Richard Brion 4:19 Pretty much Brian Schoenborn 4:21 Like a fucking crackhead, they're like “I will suck your dick for some pee!” Richard Brion 4:25 So basically, there was a there was a couple of there was a couple of girls in the group that kind of actually almost got like chased down for it. It was pretty funny. I in the morning, you just even trying to just go check out one of the lakes and a waterfall just to take pictures, and you look up and there's a goat they're like, “are you gonna pee?” Like, you're like, “wait a minute.” Brian Schoenborn 4:46 They're like giving you the look. Richard Brion 4:48 Yeah, and they follow you down there and they basically like oddly feels like they've got you pinned up against this rock face. Like, either you pee or I knock you off the cliff but I mean, outside of that it was pretty awesome. We got to see a deer right up close, it really didn't care too much that we were around. And then on the way down from the second trip as well, there was a pretty sizable buck that basically was just standing there staring at us, like “what's up people?” Richard Brion 5:18 So they kind of get up there this it's odd, they're still pristine, they still come around, but then they're getting used to humans enough and as we're not being too much of a threat that they kind of just leave you alone. Brian Schoenborn 5:28 Huh, nice. Richard Brion 5:29 And then of course, we had one of my friends that I grew up with since the time we were like 10. He came out with us, and he ended up leaving his tent open just a smidge and a little field mouse came in. And he's not really afraid of much but he screams like a girl when a mouse gets in his tent. And that's not to say a bad thing about screaming like a girl but it when he's got a voice that isn't well suited for that falsetto scream. So when I'm when I'm saying scream like a girl it's more it's this high pitch sound that he makes that isn't within his normal vocal vocal range so it's pretty interesting. Richard Brion 6:10 Woke us up, and, you know, but the the lakes are amazing we got to see some peaks of mountains and stuff or ranges and then we got to see some crazy people actually doing some approaches and some straight up rock climbs on what's called Prusick. So yeah, it was it was a good time lots of cool stuff to see you gotta you know kind of clear out, not have to pay attention and one thing: the water taste better. Even though you have to filter it it really tastes better. Brian Schoenborn 6:38 I bet, man. Richard Brion 6:39 And it's so cold which is so awesome. Brian Schoenborn 6:42 Really. It's that's that fresh mountain water. Richard Brion 6:44 Yeah, it's all most of its all glacier or snow base filled and there's still snow up there. Oddly enough at the tail end or the middle of July in Washington state in the North Cascades. So yeah, we got to do a little snow sliding. Brian Schoenborn 6:58 Nice. Richard Brion 6:58 Yeah. In order to get is a little bit faster and more fun. Brian Schoenborn 7:02 Nice. So so for people listening, we're currently in Seattle. And in case you haven't realized it at this point, this show is pretty fucking mobile. You know, I gotta make sure that you guys know that where we are right now. So we had so you have some reference, right? It's maybe some imagination is to like, Look, you know, Seattle is fucking surrounded by god damn mountains Richard Brion 7:25 and water. Brian Schoenborn 7:26 And water. Exactly. And there's so much water so much mountains the Alpines like you're talking about the Cascades Richard Brion 7:32 and for those of you East coasters you don't know mountains till you've been here. Brian Schoenborn 7:35 Dude. Richard Brion 7:36 The Appalachians are hills. Brian Schoenborn 7:38 I remember when I was in when I was in Boston, people were like, “Oh we're gonna go to Killington in Vermont,” and I like check it out. It's like fucking ice. Like they're they're black diamonds are like bunny hill. Richard Brion 7:49 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 7:51 Like Okay, alright buddy, check out why don't why do you come by Colorado sometime or check out Seattle or Tahoe or you know, Big Bear. Richard Brion 8:00 See some actual…see some actual mountains. Brian Schoenborn 8:03 I only went skiing once, and the one time it was at Breckenridge. And my buddy who is like his big time snowboarder, and his, his brother-in-law's a professional snowboarder and snowboard instructor and shit, and he's like, “Here, have some fucking skis”, and he takes me down the blues first. I don't even know what the fuck I'm doing, dude. Brian Schoenborn 8:22 It was a…it was it was intimidating. Let's put it that way. I mean, I did it. Richard Brion 8:27 I don't know about you. But that's sort of how I learned how to swim. It was just Brian Schoenborn 8:30 Really? They just fucking threw you in there? Richard Brion 8:32 Yeah, here's here's a lake just you're getting tossed out of the boat. You'll figure it out or you don't I mean, sometimes especially the warm things. Sometimes it doesn't work out so well. Brian Schoenborn 8:41 I just remember the first time I went down, like, I got off the ski lift and I didn't know how to stand up. So like, so like, I'm like crouching with my ass is almost touching the fucking snow. And I'm still moving forward, and I'm like, “Oh shit!” Richard Brion 8:54 I'm already moving. I'm not even standing. Brian Schoenborn 8:58 I was going down the hill here. And I'm like not far from the ski live like I'm like I could see it in the distance I can see people like going up, and I fell and my both skis fell off my feet. Right? And like, I tried to stand up to go after the skis and I fucking sunk like waist deep in the god damned snow. Richard Brion 9:17 Post hold on that. That's awesome. Brian Schoenborn 9:19 People are looking at me. from above, they're going, “Hey! You okay?” I'm just like, “Leave me alone in my fucking misery.” Richard Brion 9:25 I'll just slide down. I'll just I'll just get on my stomach and slide down. That's That's hilarious. But no, yes. So the to get into this path. To get up into this part of the mountains though. It's a step you have to earn it. It's about six miles from the trailhead to the top but the last mile, you end up or it's point nine of a mile you end up taking on something in the neighborhood of like 2000 feet of elevation. Brian Schoenborn 9:56 That's pretty intense, dude. Richard Brion 9:58 Yeah, it was it. was definitely pretty interesting. It took us I there's a few different there's three little pockets of our group. The first guy took longer to eat lunch at the bottom than it did to get up, for him to walk up it but. Brian Schoenborn 10:13 Really? Richard Brion 10:13 Then again he's a former Marine. Brian Schoenborn 10:15 So he's like a mountain goat basically. Richard Brion 10:16 Yeah he's a former Marine mountain goat and spend time in Iraq, and yeah he basically did it in if not two hours, or if it took him the full two hours it was somewhere hour 45, two hours. We were a little behind him took us about two hours and 45 and then the the the stragglers in our group still did pretty good. They did it just over three hours. Just for that point nine miles and we're talking point nine of a mile that's not even that far. And it took you know, nearly three hours. Brian Schoenborn 10:45 Three hours, like that's crazy, dude. Richard Brion 10:47 Yeah, it moves up. I forget what the pitch ends up being but you're definitely doing for every foot forward. you're definitely doing some feet up. So and it definitely burns out the quads. Brian Schoenborn 10:58 Oh for sure, dude. That reminds me of… Richard Brion 11:00 …especially carrying 50 pounds. Brian Schoenborn 11:02 Right. I mean that well, that reminds me when I was in Beijing, me and three of my friends. We went camping on the Great Wall. And so so my buddy Yo, shout out to Josef. He's in Hong Kong right now. But he's, he's, uh, yeah, he actually hiked the great wall like 40 something times. He recently scaled. He recently did Mount Everest base camp, and he did it without a fucking Sherpa. Like he mapped it out himself and like, he's, this dude's a fucking hiker, dude, let's put it that way. Brian Schoenborn 11:34 But he mapped out this stretch of the wall because you know, it's technically illegal to camp on the Great Wall. So we found the stretch because, you know, it's 3000 miles long or whatever it is. So there's parts that are like unrestored, you know, not a lot of people go to. Richard Brion 11:48 You get too far out and yeah. Brian Schoenborn 11:50 And he mapped out the stretch, which was crazy. It was like rubble, dude. So for anybody that's if you haven't If you don't know much about the Great Wall if you haven't been there, it's 3000 miles but it's along a mountain spine. It's like a lot like on the ridge. Right? So like, when we get to the stretch not only was there like no parking area, you know, it was just fucking out in the boonies, right. But, you know, we stayed the night so we had our backpacks full of food and water and all that other stuff. And I swear to God, the first 45 minutes was like scrambling like hand and feet up this mountain ridge. Just to get to the wall, dude. Richard Brion 12:32 Yeah, I mean, you'd have to, based on where they are, Geographically where it is. There is a mountain range and between Mongolia and China, so. Brian Schoenborn 12:41 I mean, that's why they built the Wall. To keep the goddamn Mongolians out. Richard Brion 12:44 Yeah. And they worked for a long time. But they figured it out. Brian Schoenborn 12:51 They did. Richard Brion 12:55 Ask the Khans. Brian Schoenborn 12:56 Exactly. Well, I think they built it to keep the Khans out. Richard Brion 13:00 Yeah I'm pretty sure. Brian Schoenborn 13:01 I mean, Gengis and all the you know, I think Kublai Khan might have might have figured it out but Richard Brion 13:06 I can't remember if it was coupla or it might have been cool i'd figured it out but Brian Schoenborn 13:10 but it was you know was an ordeal but it was you know that was kind of cool like as an aside like that was kind of cool to like, you know, be in this area like like the tourist areas of the Great Wall is like full of people. Richard Brion 13:23 Oh, yeah. Brian Schoenborn 13:23 Right? I mean, they were restored in the last like 30 years it's all like new looking brick and shit like that. But just like it's like… Richard Brion 13:29 easy to get to take good photos. Brian Schoenborn 13:32 So like, like in, in Chinese and Chinese slang, they ren shan ren hai, which means people mountain people sea, which is just like fucking people everywhere. Kind of like, Well, you know, when you're when you're at a sports game, or a concert and you're leaving, you know, kind of like that. But like, all day, every day. Richard Brion 13:49 Yeah. Tokyo's pretty much that way all day every day. Brian Schoenborn 13:53 But Tokyo people have this sense of common courtesy. Richard Brion 13:58 Oh, of course. Brian Schoenborn 13:58 So it's a little bit different. Richard Brion 14:00 I mean, there's just a ton of people everywhere. Brian Schoenborn 14:02 I love China. I love Beijing. Don't get me wrong, but there's, you know, there's some they've got some room to grow in terms of stuff like that. Richard Brion 14:11 Yeah, but there's not a culture on the planet that doesn't. Brian Schoenborn 14:13 Of course. Um, but so the point being was that that long winded thing, like the point being is that we found the stretch where we didn't see a single other person for a day and a half, dude. On the Great Wall. Right, like, that's crazy. So yeah, so I can relate, in a sense, and I know, like being in the middle of nowhere, and Richard Brion 14:35 Actually, it's quite nice. It really is. I was talking to another person about it a couple weeks ago that it can be one of those temporary transformative things where the world is getting to you you're looking for a reset on everything. Some people think that you need a near death experience to really kind of set your course or to end up really influencing your life now, something like that. Brian Schoenborn 14:58 Sometimes you just need to be like out in the middle of nowhere, like Like, for example, I like I really enjoy stand up paddleboarding. And I like it, you know, for the workout, of course, but like what I really like about it is I can be 100 yards out from the beach, but I'm miles away from anybody. Richard Brion 15:15 Yeah, Brian Schoenborn 15:16 You know? Richard Brion 15:17 It can be that simple. But yeah, so you don't have to you don't have to go so crazy and do you know, 30 miles and four days in order to really kind of get it, but it can be anything for some people. I mean, I've got a friend that does it in music. He goes out to his garage, and it basically changes his life for a while. Yeah. Until the people creep back. Brian Schoenborn 15:38 Yeah, exactly. That sounds really cool. That's so So tell me a little bit about like, let's go back. I want to go back back back back back. Like, you know, talk about your Navy stuff. Talk about your Blackwater shit, because, you know, even with those backpacking stuff, like there's, there's stuff that's like, I'm sure there's stuff that you took from there that's still relevant to this sort of thing, right. Richard Brion 15:57 Yeah. I mean, moreso the Blackwater days in the post military contractor days, did a lot more trampling around in the mountains, places like Afghanistan, which oddly enough: Afghanistan and New Mexico sorry New Mexico but I mean, you're just the Afghanistan in the United States. Geographically, it's pretty much the same the way the structure… Brian Schoenborn 16:21 Shout out to New Mexico. Richard Brion 16:22 Yeah, the way the the structure of the cities are set up. It's actually oddly similar. You've got the Albuquerque to Santa Fe, which is pretty much your Kabul to Bagram kind of thing. And then you go up into the Taos mountains in New Mexico and that's like heading up towards the Salong Pass of Afghanistan. Looks pretty much the same. Probably a good reason that Jarhead the movie was filmed actually in Albuquerque. Brian Schoenborn 16:44 Was it? Richard Brion 16:44 Yeah, so there, there's a whole lot to it and I guess I shouldn't shout so badly in this microphone before I start creating some feedback. Brian Schoenborn 16:51 Oh, you can shout all you want, dude. It's all good. Richard Brion 16:52 It sounded like I was getting a little bit of reverb. Brian Schoenborn 16:55 If you see it turning red. That's when you know that you're saying too much. Richard Brion 16:58 That I'm saying too much? Or too loud? Brian Schoenborn 17:03 Pack it up. Richard Brion 17:06 It's the Supreme, the Supreme Court light. You're green, you're good yellow starts to run out of time you hit red. Nope. Stop talking. Oh, yeah. So I mean, Afghanistan, I learned quite a bit about being able to carry weight through mountainous terrain and whatnot. And one of the things you learn that's interesting is when you're going downhill, is foot placement can be incredibly important in terms of how you do it and the heel stomp activity that most people don't do…only when they're in snow, it actually helps out quite a bit. Brian Schoenborn 17:38 What is this heel stomp activity? Richard Brion 17:38 So we have a tendency to walk heel, toe, heel toe, or when we're going downhill or runners do they go more to a mid strike toward their foot is. But if you actually kind of lean back, stand straight up when you got weight and you kind of straighten your leg and then drop your heel first, solidly into the loose terrain. Whether that's sand or snow and then you kind of cant, you kind of cant your feet outward almost like you're doing a kind of like a military salute stance. You get that 45 degree angle. You just set your feet… Brian Schoenborn 17:50 Yeah, heels together. Feet slightly apart, toes slightly apart. Richard Brion 18:17 Yeah. And then just kind of step each one at a time that way and it makes for good solid footing when you're not and you can move pretty quick downhill that way. Brian Schoenborn 18:26 That's interesting, like Richard Brion 18:27 I learned it from…oddly enough, I learned it from the Afghans. I grew up around mountains, and it's not something I've ever done. And I see them run down these steep sandy faces and I'm like, “Wait a minute, how did you do that?” They're like, “Oh, you know, we know how to do it.” Brian Schoenborn 18:43 So that reminds me of this. This time I did. I did a three day, two night homestay in northern Vietnam, like Sapa Valley, the foothills of the Himalayas, right? Richard Brion 18:55 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 18:55 Um, I was in good cycling shape at that point. So like my legs were strong or whatever. But like, I my guide was this lady she was like, I don't know, probably 30 something, 30 ish. But like, fucking four feet tall. Brian Schoenborn 19:09 She's tiny you know, minority minority village person, that sort of thing. And she wore these like, these sandals these cheap ass plastic sandals with just that wide band that goes across. It's not a thong, it's anything like that. And holy shit dude, she just boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo up and down up and down, like no no beaten path, right like we're going up and down these Himalayan the foothills, right? Richard Brion 19:37 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 19:37 Just going up and down and stuff like mud path and you know and she's just flying dude. And like so I took it upon myself like, “I gotta keep up at her.” Point of pride. Richard Brion 19:47 Spoken like a true marine. Brian Schoenborn 19:49 Exactly. Richard Brion 19:53 That reminds me I one time in Thailand, you know they they've got the little Muay Thai boxers. Brian Schoenborn 20:00 Oh sure. Yeah. Richard Brion 20:01 They always have to tell the Marines when you come into port don't get in. Don't Don't do it. Don't do it. Sure enough, there's always a marine. It's like, I can try this. And this dude, you know, the funniest ones are when they're like, 14, 15 year old kids and they think that it's they think that Oh, I'm a big bad marine that the Marine Corps trained me and then… Brian Schoenborn 20:19 This guy looks scrawny. Richard Brion 20:20 Yeah, within seconds they get their ass whooped by this little, four foot tall 85 pound Thai kid that yeah, he's just tough as nails, but spoken like a true marine I got taken upon myself to keep up with him. Richard Brion 20:35 The few, the proud All right. Well, unfortunately isn't it isn't an old biblical proverb that says pride cometh before the fall? Brian Schoenborn 20:35 Right? It's a point of pride man. That's how we roll. Brian Schoenborn 20:48 There it is. Spoken like a true squid. Richard Brion 20:57 We, yeah, we some of us, we try to we try to finesse it a little bit rather than just brute force everything. Brian Schoenborn 21:03 Grace, fall gracefully. Richard Brion 21:04 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 21:05 Tell me a little bit more about this Afghanistan stuff. So this was in your in this wasn't we were working with Blackwater or was this the Navy? Richard Brion 21:10 So I was doing I was Brian Schoenborn 21:13 like, what timeframe was this? Richard Brion 21:14 So this is like, when was that? It was like 2004 or five ish. Brian Schoenborn 21:21 Okay, so that's likely the heat of Afghanistan. Richard Brion 21:25 I was at Well, it was in a weird it was in a weird transition like right at the beginning. It was on that transitioning period from still being really hot in everywhere to where then Kabul and some of the other places, Bagram and whatnot. Even parts of Nangahar and whatnot. It kind of settled down to kind of an equilibrium for quite some time. We were able to go… Brian Schoenborn 21:48 Was this before or after they put Karzai in power? Richard Brion 21:52 This was during Karzai. Karzai been in for a couple of years by this point, I think or at least or at least a year. Brian Schoenborn 22:00 I'm just trying to refresh memory cuz, you know, like I was active during 911. Right? I didn't serve obviously. But I mean, I didn't go over there for reasons out of my control. But, you know, my unit was a first to go Iraq, right? Richard Brion 22:07 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 22:11 But it was Afghanistan first so it was 911, Afghanistan, and then for whatever reason, they said, Hey, we gotta go to Iraq too, which was bullshit. But that's a whole nother thing. Richard Brion 22:23 Were you first Marines? Brian Schoenborn 22:24 My my unit was 3/1. Richard Brion 22:26 3/1? Brian Schoenborn 22:27 Third Battalion, First Marines. We were I MEF. We fought in Fallujah. Richard Brion 22:31 Yeah. My uh… Brian Schoenborn 22:32 We were the first battle in Fallujah. Richard Brion 22:33 My buddy that's a border patrol. He was in Afghanistan at the time, before I met him. He was active duty Marine for 3/1. Brian Schoenborn 22:42 No shit? Richard Brion 22:43 Yeah, he was a … Brian Schoenborn 22:44 Do you know what company he was in? Richard Brion 22:46 311. I want to say. Brian Schoenborn 22:48 Well, no, it's no No, no, no, no, no, it's three one and then the. So I was weapons company. Yeah, but it was like Lima, India and Kilo. Richard Brion 22:57 I would have done what I would have to ask him. But Brian Schoenborn 23:00 Lima, India, Kilo and Weapons Company. I was in Weapons Company. Was he rifle man or was he a weapons guy? Richard Brion 23:02 He was. He was infantry straight up grant. He was. He was the Brian Schoenborn 23:06 0311? Richard Brion 23:07 Yeah, he was 0311. He was he was the sergeant for his platoon. The actual, the Soldier of Fortune magazine actually, at one point there was a photo taken. So he was the Marine Sergeant that was actually tasked with doing the Marcus Luttrell recovery after, and the interesting story was we were in the same place basically at the same time didn't know each other yet. So it was with Blackwater. We were in Kabul. Brian Schoenborn 23:34 We might have even been in boot camp together. That's weird. That's fucking me up. Richard Brion 23:38 He's younger Yeah, I think he's younger but um, so he he's closer. But yeah, so anyway, so Brian Schoenborn 23:46 So 3/1 didn't, we were not in Afghanistan. The unit that went to Afghanistan before like the first ones in was 1/5. Richard Brion 23:54 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 23:54 First Battalion, fifth Marines. Richard Brion 23:55 I had them backwards. They were also saying it was 1/5 was Iraq and 3/1 was Afghanistan. Brian Schoenborn 24:00 They were also based in Camp Pendleton. They were near us. So I was in Camp Horno, which is kind of the it's like the coastal kind of North ish area. One five was right at the border of the base. I hope I'm not giving away government secrets, sorry, government. But ish ish, you know, but kind of kind of kind of at the, you know, kind of near the border between, you know, between San Diego and Orange County. Richard Brion 24:26 Yeah. And, but to funny, the interesting thing was is so during the whole Lone Survivor incident, I was in Kabul with Blackwater and a bunch of the Blackwater team were were former SEALs that were actually good friends with a lot of those guys. Brian Schoenborn 24:44 Oh shit, man. Richard Brion 24:45 So when it went down twice, we actually were planning, sending taking a helicopter down and Nangahar and getting out towards that area and jumping into the recovery mission until there was a… at first it we were having the green line and somebody decided was probably not the right idea to have private contractors handling that kind of thing. Richard Brion 25:05 So, so my buddy, because helicopters and air support was off limits because of the two helicopters getting shot down. So he was the sergeant that led the platoon on foot to go in, and they got ambushed. And then during the ambush, I don't know, I still don't know. And I'm not sure even he knows how the photograph was taken. But it ended up becoming one of the Marine Corps coins as well. There's a picture of Marines squatting down behind a rock: one with a with a rifle aimed, the other one making a phone call. And that photo made Soldier of Fortune and it was also made a Marine Corps coin and my buddy's that sergeant, is one of those two guys that are memorialized in that coin. Brian Schoenborn 25:45 That's crazy, dude. Richard Brion 25:46 Then he ended up becoming a contractor, working with me in Blackwater in Japan, then we went to Iraq together with another contracting company and… Brian Schoenborn 25:52 So so for late for so the listeners out there, let me let me let me explain what a private contractor for Blackwater is in terms of you can understand. He's a fucking mercenary. Right? I mean paid, you know you're for-hire security services in some of the most dangerous parts of the world. Does that sound…is that fair? Is that accurate? Richard Brion 26:15 Yeah, pretty much. Brian Schoenborn 26:16 He's just like, “Yeah whatever, you know, it's all in a day's work.” Richard Brion 26:20 Well, I mean it. So it's a perspective thing. Brian Schoenborn 26:23 Yeah, for sure. Of course. Richard Brion 26:24 So I sit down and I watched the show the Deadliest Catch from time to time you know, like, crazy assed crab fisherman and I think that is the craziest… Brian Schoenborn 26:31 That's a crazy fucking job but that also pays well, Richard Brion 26:33 Well, of course it does. and… Brian Schoenborn 26:35 it was like six months and they make like six figures in six like, Richard Brion 26:38 Yeah, of course. But to me, I think that it's crazy. It's a crazy ass job. Now, a good chunk of those guys would think that what I was doing back in the day, as a contractor with Blackwater and all this stuff was crazy stupid. And I mean, when you think about it, there's some there's some dumb things and we called it delayed death a little bit as you're dead being there. It's just a matter of if your card got called what while you're actually in country or not, but It's perspective. Richard Brion 27:01 You know, for me, those those Deadliest Catch people were way crazier than I was doing. But then again, it's because I was doing a job that I was well trained to do and well equipped for. Richard Brion 27:11 And I knew my equipment no different than an electrician knows his pliers and his wire strippers and everything else no different than a crab fisherman knows his nets in gear. For me, I always thought the distinction was is that humans are a lot more predictable than nature. So So when you're out there, even when you're even when you're surprised in an ambush, there's still things that humans do that are predictable on some level. So you can still make plans on some degree and you can still rely on them with some level of reliability, but nature just does whatever the hell it wants. Brian Schoenborn 27:11 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 27:45 There's no stopping nature, dude. Richard Brion 27:45 I mean, even when they're even when there's weather predictions and weather forecasts. I mean, Brian Schoenborn 27:50 Weathermen are never right, man. Richard Brion 27:51 Yeah, especially in these places, right. So, I mean, you were in in China too. The South China Sea? Brian Schoenborn 27:58 Oh, dude, they have typhoons all the time, man. Richard Brion 28:00 I know and it's so unpredictable. So you're going out into this thing with against effectively an opponent or a foe that you can't predict anything. You're just flying by the seat of your pants all of the time hoping for the best. So, I mean, that's, I guess that's what perspective is. So yeah, it was some crazy environments. You know, Afghanistan Kabul, you know, Nangahar, Salong. Up there in Iraq. I was mostly I was in Baghdad proper, but then we were in Diwaniya, which if you want to go look that up that was that was a fun show. It's on. Brian Schoenborn 28:33 Let's look it up right now. I wanna see what you're talking about. Richard Brion 28:36 So yeah, so it was a camp, or that Camp Echo? In Diwania. So this camp, when we first when Yeah, there it is, right there. Diwania, Iraq. So it's a couple hours south. Brian Schoenborn 28:57 I'll post information on this. What do we do when we post The show but yeah… Richard Brion 29:01 Oh l ook at that Polish troops in Iraq, Camp Echo. So so basically it was this little postage stamp of a forward operating base in central Iraq near near the Nijef province. But this thing was so small. I mean, it was literally probably the size of a small school compound. Brian Schoenborn 29:21 The camp or the town? Richard Brion 29:22 The entire camp. Brian Schoenborn 29:24 Wow, that's tiny. Richard Brion 29:24 In the in this town yeah and so they had this tire factory in town and whatnot and so it was first… Brian Schoenborn 29:30 It's the last place you would expect a military encampment to be. That's good shit. Richard Brion 29:36 But it was kind of a key point for the Nijef province for the US Army Corps of Engineers but this so initially post the invasion and us trying to figure out what to do you know, we brought in the coalition. The Spanish took it, and no offense to those Spaniards out there but you kind of you lost it. You got overrun. And it's because the city, I mean, and to be fair, it's not It's not as it wasn't a super large base, the area would go through ebbs and flows where the insurgency would build up and it would dissipate, but eventually they got overrun. Richard Brion 30:11 So then the Polish took over. And they were the ones running the camp when we were there with a small contingent of US Army, Military Police. And so and and basically the it was this kind of school kids playing with each other, where the Polish would completely be out in town, in full force, and then they would slowly start drawing back towards the base. The insurgency would get more and more emboldened by it. And then at some point, we ended up having to drop a MOAB, which is a “mother of all bombs” into the middle of the city, kind of kind of reset the situation. Richard Brion 30:55 The Polish went back out, they kind of held it and then they got drawn back to the base. So Diwaniya was probably the dodgiest place I was it was we were getting rocketed pretty much every night. Brian Schoenborn 31:07 Those are RPGs, right? Richard Brion 31:09 155 Katooshes. Brian Schoenborn 31:12 I'm not familiar with that. Richard Brion 31:14 So usually you know one five fives are your largest you can over the one of the some of the largest there are a lot louder, bigger than standard mortar there, you know. 155 millimeter. Brian Schoenborn 31:25 Mortars are no joke. I know some I remember, I had some mortar men in my CAAT platoon. Yeah, I mean, those guys are pretty hardcore. Richard Brion 31:32 I mean rules of engagement. This was starting to change as well. So we weren't allowed to specifically do straight up counter battery. Which for those that don't know counter battery just means we use sound to triangulate a rough position of where they might have been coming from. And then you just rocket everything back. Brian Schoenborn 31:49 Yeah. Richard Brion 31:49 Which is effective in certain circumstances, but at the same time, Brian Schoenborn 31:54 It's also essentially spray and pray. Richard Brion 31:55 Yeah, there's there can be significant collateral damage, and so we were, we were drawing back on that and the problem was they were putting their their rockets and stuff into mounts in the back of pickup trucks. So basically even by the time you were able to get a 3 pings triangulation for a counter battery, the truck had already moved. So even, you know, and then you're firing even within 30 seconds to a minute, if it took that if it was that fast, truck could still fire and move. So, the likelihood of you actually hitting the target that was rocketing you was small, so then, you know we get rocketed every day and of course, we were contractors. We had Polish. We had a Polish dude that was French, former French Foreign Legion, some British special boat guys, special air guys on the team. Couple of Army Greenie Beanies. l Brian Schoenborn 32:48 When you say special boat and special air, you're talking like Special Forces. Richard Brion 32:51 Yes. So the so the British they have their SS in there. SBS, so their Special Air Service and their special boats, which is kind of basically the SAS would be sort of like our it's a cross somewhere between our Army Special Forces and our US Air Force paratroopers in terms of responsibility. And then special boats are basically like their version of a Navy seal. Brian Schoenborn 32:51 So basically, you're a Motley Crue badass motherfuckers basically. Richard Brion 32:51 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 33:17 Okay, got it. Richard Brion 33:18 And then we had some, also some Royal Marine commandos, so kind of like our recon Marines and whatnot. So we had a hodgepodge of British, American, and European guys that were on this team all well-trained, but also a little bit mad in the head, as they would say. Brian Schoenborn 33:36 You kind of have to be off to go to do some of that stuff. Richard Brion 33:40 A little bit. Yeah. And then it got even more strange. So we lived kind of nearest to where the marine or not where the Marine Corps, where the army military police unit was. So every every evening the rocket… Brian Schoenborn 33:51 I bet they had their hands full. Richard Brion 33:52 Oh, they definitely did. But every every evening, the rockets always came in right around the same time. Everybody else has all hunkered down in places. And where we go, we get our chow, we come back, then we all sit around the proverbial campfire just bullshitting with our, with our gear, our guns, our body armor… Brian Schoenborn 34:11 As these bombs are going off. Richard Brion 34:12 And basically we're having what we called our mortar tea parties. We were drinking tea and biscuits, you know cookies and tea, waiting for the mortars to start and then the gear was all preset because then we'd have to repel borders, which again, for those that don't know what that means. That means that they would use the rockets in order to distract us because we're all hiding, hopefully then they could storm the walls. So basically, it was this kind of tit for tat thing, they'd rocket us then they would try to mount an offensive to come over the wall. So you have to have your gear with you in the mortar shelters to be ready for it. So we just kind of sat around every day just having a chat kind of like we're having right now. Just bullshiting, laughing and just waiting for them. And some of those those army military police guys thought we were batshit crazy. Brian Schoenborn 34:59 Of course! They have every right to think that. Richard Brion 35:03 AAnd maybe we were, but like I said that the those guys that go pick up crab fishing jobs in Alaska, they're crazier than me as far as I'm concerned. Brian Schoenborn 35:10 That's the thing that I'm talking about, right? Like like in the Marines, like my Marine Corps training, even as short as it was, like one of those things you realize it like you can be ,you can experience, you can be in the middle of experiencing fucking hell, dude. But what you realize that if you're with there was somebody, if you're there with somebody else and you can sit there and bullshit about stuff while while this is all happening? It's a completely different thing, dude. It makes it manageable. Richard Brion 35:38 Well, yeah it does. And I mean, Afghanistan was the same way so that circa 2004, 2005 and got to the point where we were allowed to go on town, there were Lebanese restaurants, French restaurants… Brian Schoenborn 35:55 You're allowed to go off base and like, check out the town? Richard Brion 35:57 Yeah. So as Blackwater we lived in our own compound anyway. We also we were running, we were help training counternarcotics police for the government in Afghanistan. We were doing those kinds of things. So we were we weren't doing a lot of things directly with US military. They had, we were getting support from them. So we could access military installations. We got Intel from them, of course, was since we were working in the same sphere, we also had to have crypto to be able to talk back and forth, so that we could deconflict so that in the event that we were out on our own thing, and in the middle of a fight and US military or ISAF forces were in the middle of a fight. We could make sure that we weren't shooting at each other kind of kind of important, you know, blue on blue. Brian Schoenborn 36:43 Crypto meaning encrypted messaging? Richard Brion 36:46 Yeah, encrypted radio, you know, the big old fat, you see them on movies. Brian Schoenborn 36:49 So you're free to talk, but nobody can intercept it. Richard Brion 36:52 Yeah, exactly. So basically, you see them on any of those military movies. You know, the guy standing back there with the little what looks like antique headset phone… Brian Schoenborn 37:02 One of my buddies was a comm guy, man. You look at before you stick it, when you put that little… Richard Brion 37:07 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 37:07 When you put the antenna on you got to like. Richard Brion 37:09 yeah they the old mark one seven you know the different radios and whatnot and and then they came up with some slightly better ones but the range was different so I mean yeah we were we were out there doing, but yeah we could go on the internet they have an Intercontinental Hotel in Kabul, no joke, from the Intercontinental Hotel Group it's still there. As of 2018 when I was there last in Kabul, it's a little bit harder to get to in from these days, but back then there was a you could go get a proper massage at the hotel. You could go for lunch or whatever and they had a swimming pool you could take in there. They even had a lake resort in just outside Kabul that had a golf course that we could go on. Brian Schoenborn 37:51 Oh, it's crazy. So, I mean, so it sounds like you were pretty like ingrained into Kabul and the, you know, the local culture a little bit like did you I mean, did you stand out like a sore thumb or like what you know Richard Brion 38:08 For the most part… Brian Schoenborn 38:08 Like your interactions with the Afghans with the Afghans and stuff like that? Richard Brion 38:11 Yeah, I mean for the most part of course we stood out like sore thumbs but then again there was enough Western and I sat forces that there was no real distinguishment between who was who and you know, who was white, I mean, contractors we kind of dress like each other but then again, contractor dress looks like British Special Air Service dress. So you know, and then of course, you have your other governmental groups and they all dress kind of however, and so it was almost impossible to distinguish one set from another. Brian Schoenborn 38:40 Sure. Richard Brion 38:40 You could be at a restaurant having you know, having a meal with these people and they could have been FBI, they could have been, you know, any other lettered soup or they could have been a contractor or they could have been active duty Special Forces. There was really no way to tell unless you got into the weeds with it. Everybody wore beards, but as far as me? Oddly enough, you, you put the right kind of Afghan clothes on and I had my beard grown out and with the blue eyes and I could look like I'm an Afghan from the Panjshir Valley because Russian influence to the Panjshir area. Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 38:57 So did you? I mean, did you interact with, like the Afghan people? Or was it mostly with the other military units? Richard Brion 39:19 Oh, no, we were moreso Afghans and then I my job was intelligence. So I was a lot more interacting with them. But there's a famous street in Kabul. It's called Chicken Street. Basically, it's, every city pretty much has one. That's kind of where you go to get a lot of your tangible goods. So we could go down and get trinkets and rugs and everything else and we used to go down to Chicken Street and you could get a suit fitted. I have I still have them actually in my closet a few of the suits that an Afghan Taylor put together for me. Richard Brion 39:54 There was a barber that I would go in that would use all the old school hand tools, no power, to do trims and stuff and we used to, we used to get kids to come with us, because the Afghans themselves have this “kids are off-limits” in terms of this thing. So, Pakistanis and the Iraqis, unfortunately, don't quite have that same threshold when it comes to kids, but the Afghans do. So you get the kids that are out trying to make a buck or whatever else, and you give them some money and some food and then they would go recruit their friends. And then when you wanted to go into a place, they would then crowd the door, so that it would keep people that could be or are thinking about taking advantage of the situation from doing so because kids were off-limits. Brian Schoenborn 40:39 Yeah. Richard Brion 40:40 And so and then some of the elders in the village in the city and stuff that were around didn't mind it either, because we were giving the kids some sort of value and job, you know, we were giving them food and they were helping us out. And there was a similar thing in Djibouti one at one point and I can't get into the why I was there and with whom… Brian Schoenborn 41:00 Dammit. Richard Brion 41:00 But you pay, Brian Schoenborn 41:03 I wanna hear that styory. I always want to hear the ones that you can't talk about. Richard Brion 41:06 Yeah, I know, right? But the funny part about the story was is, there was there was a kid and you paid 20 bucks he would come he actually had this he had the racket down. He would come and he had this big stick and you'd be like, “I be your bodyguard” all in English. Couple couple of few bucks in English he would tell you he would be the bodyguard. And then he would have liked two of his little friends and they were doing, and I did protection details for years. So I had all these this training on doing the box and the, you know, contact rules, but Brian Schoenborn 41:33 What is it what is the box? Richard Brion 41:35 So the box we did, so depending on there's triangles, there's boxes. It's how you set your people up to do protection. So we always ran a five man box. Brian Schoenborn 41:46 Okay, so basically you had four corners and then one in the middle? Richard Brion 41:49 You have four corners, and then one in the middle standing next to the client that was basically the client director and then so depending on how contact goes you can close the box and basically create a wall. Brian Schoenborn 41:58 Got it. Richard Brion 41:58 But these these three little kids, they had their own little version of a protective detail triangle down with sticks. And then if people got too close, they would kind of, and sometimes even with some of the adults in the area, they even had a little, like playful ruse for the adults would kind of give them a little, a little reason to practice. So, you know, and then the little kid that was in charge was like, you know, “don't worry right now”, and then the adults would kind of come up and play and then they would like beat him back with the sticks and stuff like kind of keep practice. It was kind of interesting, but Brian Schoenborn 42:31 Enterprising entrepreneurial little kids over there. Richard Brion 42:33 Exactly. very entrepreneurial on how they were doing it. And in Kabul, it was that way too. There were stores that you want to go in and the kids would go in first and kind of rush all the other people out. And again, that sounds very privileged of us. We were able to have little kids kind of push the rest of the adults out but at the same time, like I said, it was that weird in between phase of the community where the the adults didn't mind so much because we were spending money in local shops and we were having some, we're having interactions with the kids. So in their own way it allowed it created a sense of security for us and a peace of mind for us that we knew there wasn't someone in the store waiting, gave the kids something to do then we were spending money on the local economy. So we felt that we were giving back a little bit a little bit. Brian Schoenborn 43:17 And you were giving the kids food and other stuff too. Richard Brion 43:19 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 43:19 So they were so they're, they're getting benefits for their services too, right? Richard Brion 43:22 Yeah. And I mean, we've had a lot of the guys thought I was crazy, but we had a little…but, I mean, so I there was a lot that I had to do that was by myself. So I was driving around a lot by myself places and there was a, there was this little rig on a rickety cart that was an engine with a set of wheels and basically you turn it on and you would feed what looked like a sugar cane through it. And then it would come out as a juice or something. Brian Schoenborn 43:53 Oh yeah! Sugarcane juice. Yeah. That's all over the place. Like I've had that in India. Richard Brion 43:58 Yeah, that's what I didn't realize that sugar cane. Something that was really available. Brian Schoenborn 44:01 It's literally just pressed cane liquid right? Richard Brion 44:03 Yeah, and it, but at the time I wasn't completely sure that was sugar cane because I still to this day not hundred percent certainly sugar cane grows naturally in Afghanistan, but in either case it was just it was kind of dirty looking cart but I would pull over for $1 whatever it was at the time I would get one and you know it's not like the United States or you pop in and they give you a bottle you take with you or whatever, it's just a glass. Brian Schoenborn 44:29 It's not the processed stuff. Richard Brion 44:31 Well, yeah, and it's just a glass that you drink it there. Brian Schoenborn 44:33 You drink it on the spot, right? Richard Brion 44:34 They take the glass right? Yep, they take the glass back and they wash it so you know a lot of guys are like, “hey man, you're kinda it's kind of dirty kind of don't know.” I didn't care. I liked it, and the other thing that I really liked to this day is Afghan naan you know? You can get naan everywhere else but the Afghan naan to me is some of the best I've ever had. Brian Schoenborn 44:53 So, like, how is it different from like Indian naan? So naaa, like n-a-a-n, like a flatbread? Richard Brion 44:59 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 44:59 Like Indian food that you would like take and like scoop with the curries and stuff. Richard Brion 45:03 Yeah and so you get Stone Fire here in the US makes it, is a brand that will make it. But it's it's a little bit more I would almost say even though it's unleavened, it's almost a little more leavened than Afghan, it's a little bit a little bit softer, which most people are like bread, you know, soft bread, but for some reason, the way that whatever it is in the recipe, and it's slightly more crispness to it. Brian Schoenborn 45:29 So it's crisp? It's not like a thick chew? Richard Brion 45:31 Not not quite like a thick chew, but it just something about it. You know, I could probably deal less with the fact that the way it was delivered is just a dude on a motorbike, sticks it under his arm after all day. Brian Schoenborn 45:44 That's what I'm talking about, dude. That's the real shit. You know, what I love about traveling, just diving deep and like, you know, there's millions of people that like eat that, you know, eat stuff like that or live a certain way like you don't, you can't really understand or appreciate another culture unless you really dive into it. You know? Richard Brion 45:58 Well yeah, and so this is a good story. Right, so I can I can say the guy's name now because it doesn't matter, but his name was General Aasif. He was the he was the general from the Afghan government. I don't know if he was specifically Afghan National Police or if he was Afghan National Army, but he had a general title general uniform. And he was in charge of the Narcotics Interdiction Unit, which is what we call the, basically, the Afghan version of the DEA. And he's no longer involves anybody that might be listening that thinks that they're getting any intel, he is not. But he used to think that I was so skinny. And so every time I come to his office, I mean, Brian Schoenborn 46:40 You're a slim dude, you're lengthy. Richard Brion 46:41 But I'm heavier than people would think. Right? And so especially then I was working out a couple times a day I was eating quite a bit. You know, when there's nothing else to do. You take your legal supplements and your protein shakes and your nitrus oxide and lift at the gym. You know, do all the bro things, right? Brian Schoenborn 47:01 No, of course. You got nothing else to do, you know, in an area like that. Richard Brion 47:04 And I mean, we had a lot to do, but there's still times when there's downtime, right? Brian Schoenborn 47:08 Sure. Richard Brion 47:08 Between stuff scene workout and you make sure that you're fit to do. Brian Schoenborn 47:12 Yeah, right. I mean, that's what I mean. Richard Brion 47:13 Yeah, it is part of your job. So you're fit to your job, but he would always want to give me food. So it was meatballs and naan and chai and… Brian Schoenborn 47:22 General Aasif always wanted to give you food. Richard Brion 47:23 Yeah. And so it was goat meatballs and lamb meatballs. Brian Schoenborn 47:27 Oh, dude, that sounds so good. Richard Brion 47:28 And I mean, at first I was in, you know, because I was still young, they're still fairly. I mean, I've been to a few places by this point, but I was still a little bit of an isolationist when it came to the local cultures at this point, because this, this happened from the moment I walked into Afghanistan, right into General Aasif's office there is just trying, and so he's feeding me food that I know came off the off of the local economy that wasn't specifically off of the military base that had, you know, all of the, what do they call it the HACCP or whatever. Brian Schoenborn 48:03 The HAACP? Richard Brion 48:04 Yes, sir. Yeah health standard yeah the health standards and servsafe. And, you know, they, they definitely didn't have their authorized food handler's permit. So I was a little bit apprehensive but truthfully I got in I didn't, didn't get sick. The only place that the only time I got food poisoning in Afghanistan was when I went to a Lebanese restaurant, that's an actual restaurant, but owned my Lebanese people, and to this day, I have a hard time with hummus. Because the only thing I ate that night was hummus because it was just there for a quick meeting. And it made me so sick they had a banana bag me for like three or four days. Brian Schoenborn 48:42 I have no idea what that means but it doesn't sound good. Richard Brion 48:44 So banana bags are. There are basically an IV fluid bag and it's very bright yellow, banana in color almost. That's why we call them banana but it's basically hydration bag. Brian Schoenborn 48:55 Oh got ya. Richard Brion 48:56 You know the team medics and stuff, you get way too drunk you know from whatever and they would banana bag you and it's good way to, but I needed a banana back for like 3 or 4 days. Brian Schoenborn 49:06 Good way to get your head right. Richard Brion 49:07 Yeah and it was pretty It was pretty gnarly. Brian Schoenborn 49:09 You know it's funny that you talk about the food poisoning thing, right? Like like, I was in Asia for almost four years. Richard Brion 49:14 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 49:15 Right? I traveled through Southeast Asia. Fucking Beijing all over China, South Korea all over the place. Indonesia, Australia. Everywhere dude, and I dive dive super deep. I get local street food, all that shit. I got food poisoning once in my four time in my four years there. Richard Brion 49:34 American restaurant? Brian Schoenborn 49:35 American barbecue restaurant. Richard Brion 49:37 Doesn't surprise me. Brian Schoenborn 49:38 The pulled pork sandwich dude. Richard Brion 49:39 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 49:40 Fucked me up. I was fucking like, it was literally like hours after I had this dude. I was just like, I could not puke enough. Richard Brion 49:48 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 49:49 Just all night long. Just dry heaving. It was fucking awful, dude. Richard Brion 49:55 Well, no, and I'm like you I got and after that point, I dove in. Iraq. You know, local food everywhere. In Japan I ate on the local economy a lot of the other guys that were there that came later you know, they were like oh there's McDonald's there let's get the McDonald's on the way to work. And me there I was with the… Brian Schoenborn 50:12 Fuck that. Richard Brion 50:13 with that sticky rice it's like a mayo finish like a mayo filling in it or whatever. Brian Schoenborn 50:18 Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Richard Brion 50:19 And then you know, I've got the rice dishes and I I like to go to the yakiniku places which is you know, you cook your own little barbecue, meats… Brian Schoenborn 50:28 Yeah, they do that in China too. They call it chuar. Yeah, it's a Beijing dialect. Brian Schoenborn 50:34 Were they giggling too? Richard Brion 50:34 I'm pretty sure it's yakiniku is what it is, I'm I might be slightly incorrect there. It's been a while but so for those who speak Japanese, you know, you know, I'm sorry for this but but it was it was really I loved it the sushi I mean, it got so local that there was a local family that was involved in running one of the little drinky bars we go to, they invited me and a couple of guys back on to this barbecue out on the coast. And we drove out to the coast. I still remember one of the pictures, actually my buddy that was a marine, he was one of those guys with us. And we took a picture of the cloud that just looked like a phallic symbol one day. One of the Japanese girls pointed it out. So the van had a sunroof… Richard Brion 50:59 And they're looking at the cloud. So what, they had a sunroof in the van we're all riding in so I stood up through the sunroof, because of course I'm the tallest dude in the van. Brian Schoenborn 51:26 And they point at it like, “Penisuh!” Richard Brion 51:27 So well I'm and I took a picture of it. So I still have the picture somewhere. But we get to the coast and we're having barbecued eel and everything, and then also uni, which for those that don't know the Japanese word, it's sea urchin. Brian Schoenborn 51:40 Sea urchin. One of my favorite foods. Richard Brion 51:41 Yeah. And so you can you can get it at your sushi restaurants but the best I ever had was the little kids were going down into the water sticking their hand right in the water grabbing it right out and then we were just popping in straight outta right on this remote beach and way north Honshu, Japan, the Honshu island of Japan. It was awesome. Brian Schoenborn 52:01 So, I mean, so where were you in Japan? I mean, you were there for a while, right? Richard Brion 52:05 Yeah, I was there for just shy of a year. Brian Schoenborn 52:07 Okay. Richard Brion 52:07 So we were we were on the far north end of Honshu. So um, Brian Schoenborn 52:13 And Honshu is what? Richard Brion 52:14 Honshu's the main island in Japan. Brian Schoenborn 52:16 Like Tokyo and stuff? Richard Brion 52:17 Yes, so Tokyo is on the southern. Brian Schoenborn 52:19 Japan like, yeah, primarily that island, right? Yes. Osaka of course. Richard Brion 52:25 Hokkaido in the north, right. Yes. So on to the main about Okinawa, which is right there. So Honshu was the main way up there. Yeah. So Tokyo is way south, almost on the complete opposite end of the contract Brian Schoenborn 52:36 Roughly how long of a train ride would that be or something? Richard Brion 52:39 So bullet train, it was like two hours and 45 minutes by car… Richard Brion 52:42 By car, it's like a 12-hour drive. Brian Schoenborn 52:42 Bullet train's going, like 200 miles a hour. Brian Schoenborn 52:47 Yeah. Okay. Richard Brion 52:47 And that's down the toll road. So that's pretty much nothing else but toll road and freeway and it's 12 hours. So basically, if you were to look on a map and you see where miss our airbase is, and then take a ruler and draw straight line To the other side of the island from them on that same skinny part. Yeah, that's where we were, was called the Aomori prefect or Aomoir prefect would be more more precise. And we were in a little town called Goshuguara. And we had to stay in a Japanese hotel and let me tell you, I mean, this one had a… Brian Schoenborn 53:16 What kind of Japanese hotel was this? I've heard a few. I've heard about a few different types of Japanese hotels. Richard Brion 53:21 It wasn't any of those. But it was…. Brian Schoenborn 53:23 Not a love hotel? Richard Brion 53:24 Well no, it was not a love hotel. And it was done…and it was also not one of the not one of the space pod ones are all bed slides out and stuff. Brian Schoenborn 53:31 I slept in one of those. In Bangkok I think. Or Saigon, one of them. Richard Brion 53:35 Yeah. And so it was still, I mean, it still was a room a desk. It was a queen size mattress, but there wasn't really room for much other. I mean, literally, I had to take the chair out for the desk so that the bed was my chair because that there I mean, there was no point. You couldn't pull the desk out. Brian Schoenborn 53:37 Dude, I slept in a pod that like, literally, like there's a hallway and on the left and on the right It looks like these bunk beds, but they're walled off and it's literally just this like, elongated hole. Richard Brion 54:05 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 54:06 …that you slide into. It's just a bed. And there's a there's a TV at the foot of it. So if you want to watch TV you can there's nothing fucking on there anyway that you could understand. Literally slide in and then you drop down. It's like a curtain almost you just drop it down. There you go. That's my pod. Kinda like on a navy ship. It's a lot like that, you know? Richard Brion 54:25 You know, um, there's a there's a Netflix original that will had Brian Schoenborn 54:31 Shout out to Netflix. Richard Brion 54:32 Yeah, shout out to Netflix. Right? But it had Emma Stone and, wow, Jonah Hill. And it was called… it was about that was the… Brian Schoenborn 54:42 …they were they had a mental problems

Richard "Red" Brion is essentially an American ronin: a samurai without a master. Red has spent years in Navy intelligence, serving in Iraq, and years with Blackwater doing some amazing things in Japan and Afghanistan. He's done quite a bit in Africa as well. And he's recently made the move over the last couple of years, taking his skills and experience from masterless warrior to hyperlocal, urban agriculture. As founder and CEO of Revolution Agriculture, Red is tackling the Global Food Security Problem through technology-enabled food production and land optimization. They have patented a system that makes it possible to grow virtually any crop, anywhere.

Richard "Red" Brion is essentially an American ronin: a samurai without a master. Red has spent years in Navy intelligence, serving in Iraq, and years with Blackwater doing some amazing things in Japan and Afghanistan. He's done quite a bit in Africa as well. And he's recently made the move over the last couple of years, taking his skills and experience from masterless warrior to hyperlocal, urban agriculture. As founder and CEO of Revolution Agriculture, Red is tackling the Global Food Security Problem through technology-enabled food production and land optimization. They have patented a system that makes it possible to grow virtually any crop, anywhere.

Dan Kanivas is a true Renaissance man. As an Army Airborne Ranger, he spent time as an artillery officer near the DMZ on the Korean peninsula and later worked closely with Iraqi officers during the Iraq War, where he trained a 130-soldier Iraqi Army unit while serving as a strategic advisor to senior Iraqi Army officers. He has since shifted his sights toward both public investing and angel investing with Triple Summit Advisors, all while prepping to summit Mount Rainier. Show Notes Triple Summit Advisors WeWork's Veterans in Residence Program, Powered by Bunker Labs Follow Dan on LinkedIn Theme music by: Ruel Morales Episode remastered by: Pascual Marquez Audio Transcript Brian Schoenborn 0:01 Hello, Hello, everyone. Our guest today is a true Renaissance man. As an Army Airborne Ranger, he spent time as an artillery officer near the DMZ on the Korean peninsula. And he shifted his sights toward both public investing and angel investing while prepping to summit Mount Rainier. Give it up to my friend, Dan Kanivas. Brian Schoenborn 0:25 My name is Brian Schoenborn. I'm an explorer of people, places and culture. In my travels, spanning over 20 countries across four continents, I've had the pleasure of engaging in authentic conversations with amazingly interesting people. These are their stories, on-location and unfiltered. Presented by 8B Media, this is Half the City. Brian Schoenborn 0:52 So what's up, Dan, thanks for coming out. Appreciate it. Dan Kanivas 0:55 Yeah, thanks for having me on the show, Brian. It's great to be here. Brian Schoenborn 0:57 Awesome. You know I've always had a respect for Airborne, Rangers, right? Stuff like that, you know, you're watching the movies, the 101st Airborne, you know, dropping down from the skies on like D-day or whatever else. You know, Hollywood's done a really good job, kind of, I don't wanna say romanticizing, but like maybe, you know, telling your story anyways. Right? Dan Kanivas 1:24 Right. Brian Schoenborn 1:26 And when you told me the other day that you've done both Airborne School and Ranger School, I was like, wow, this guy is legit. And you never would guess because he is one of the most calm, cool and collected dudes. I think that I know anyways. Dan Kanivas 1:40 I appreciate that. Brian Schoenborn 1:43 So, um, so why don't you tell me a little bit about like, you know how you made that decision to join the Army. How you made the decision to move towards Airborne School, Ranger School. I'd love to hear about you know the challenges of each. Dan Kanivas 2:02 Yeah. Alright, so let's start. That's a, that's a multi part question. So let's, let's start with the decision join the military. So I grew up in Scarsdale, New York, which really nice suburban community in the suburbs of New York. I was very lucky, as were other members of the community, to have the resources, whether it's great school, safe neighborhood, very great public services, etc. Caring community where children were put first, and students were put first. And so as a result, we had every opportunity available to us. And I was very grateful for that. And I felt like a system and a country that could produce something like that was worth defending. I wanted to give back and show my gratitude for it. Dan Kanivas 2:45 There are a lot of ways to get back, whether it's public service, volunteering, whatever it might be. In my case, I'd always had some interest in military history and I was athletic enough. I said, Okay, I wanted to give back by serving. I felt like that was my way where I could show my gratitude and then continue with the rest of my life. Luckily for me, that's basically how it worked out. And I did four and a half years of service and active duty as a field artillery officer in the US Army. Brian Schoenborn 3:15 So for those listening, you know, For the uninitiated artillery is what? The big guns? Dan Kanivas 3:21 The big guns, that's right. Brian Schoenborn 3:22 Like the cannons, Dan Kanivas 3:23 and the rockets, etc. And so I had the privilege of serving there with some fantastic soldiers, fantastic leaders. And I had overall a great time in the military and there'd be very few things I trade it for. For me, my path towards Ranger and Airborne School started with my initial training as an artillery officer. So at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, we got the option while we're doing our officer basic course for artillery. We got the option of trying out for Ranger School. Dan Kanivas 3:59 And what that entails is showing up in the morning to do a lot of PT physical training, a lot of exercise with the instructors that we had. So I was a lieutenant of time and there was a captain who was an instructor who, at the artillery school who also happened to be Ranger qualified so he had gone to Ranger School. This is back in 2005. Dan Kanivas 4:24 The instructor and instructors, there were multiple of them by the end of it, would lead us through training just to get us familiarized with some basic things that would be required of the, required of us at Ranger School, but mainly it was a lot of physical training. And so the first day of the training, maybe half the class showed up and on purpose just like they do in other military schools, the instructors, to use the military terminology, smoked the hell out of you. Right. Brian Schoenborn 4:54 They're trying to separate the men from the boys. Dan Kanivas 4:56 They purposely make it difficult in the first day because they want to see who wants to come back the next day. So, yeah, so the I had a pretty big class at the officer basics course. And I want to say we had class with 120 or 130. Somewhere around those lines. So maybe 60 people showed up the first day. Brian Schoenborn 5:14 And it was all officers? Dan Kanivas 5:15 It was all officers, all lieutenants. Yeah. And then the next day, 30 people showed up. And so the, the group of people who are training for Ranger School was cut back quickly. And we did this for the whole entire five or six months that we were there. And I think in the end, we ended up sending somewhere between 12 to 15 people who made it through that pre-Ranger prep program. Brian Schoenborn 5:39 So you're talking like 10% ish, of the original, like 120 that showed up for the for that signed up for it. Dan Kanivas 5:47 Yeah, maybe 60 people showed up the first day, so maybe 20% of them, or so made it and made it through them and 25% and then I think we ended up graduating from Ranger School, those 12 or so people who went, I think we end up graduating maybe six, seven or eight, something like that. I know at least one guy I was friends with, couldn't make it through at that time or have to drop out but then he subsequently went back and so good for him. I think he's still in the reserves actually. Dan Kanivas 6:17 But anyways, yeah, that was the process of, of getting there of starting it. And in my case, it was never a gigantic goal of mine. Some people were gunning for it and they had to do it. Brian Schoenborn 6:30 Yeah sure. Dan Kanivas 6:31 You know, the kind of the two leaders in our class who I'm still friends with today, who are, you know, corralling us all, encouraging us all to, to do this pre-Ranger prep. They they were gunning for they they knew that this is what they wanted to do. In my case, I just put one foot in from the other. And a lot of it's just about not giving up, right? At Ranger School, they they call someone who quits not, they don't say it, it's you quit because you couldn't, you know, handle the technical aspects of it or something like that, or because your muscles were too weak or something. They say you quit because you are an LOM: lack of motivation. Brian Schoenborn 7:09 There you go. Dan Kanivas 7:09 Right? And so you put one foot in front of the other, you're not guaranteed to succeed and graduate. Definitely not. But it is the main part, in my opinion of being able to graduate from Ranger School is putting one foot in front of the other. Brian Schoenborn 7:23 Yeah, you know, I kind of relate it to my own experience, right? Like I was a marine. And, and there's statistics somewhere, like, I heard this before I joined maybe it changed in the last 20 years. But before I joined, I remember seeing or hearing a statistic, talking about, like, one in five recruits that enter boot camp don't make it. Brian Schoenborn 7:47 right. Brian Schoenborn 7:49 And for the Marines, you know, it's one of those things where, you know, you'll be able to do the physical stuff. Dan Kanivas 7:56 Right. Brian Schoenborn 7:56 As long as you can pass the minimum physical fitness tests. Which is like three pull ups, you know, 60 crunches in a second, like a five k in like less than 20 minutes or something. It's not like extreme. As long as you can pass those minimum PFT requirements, you know, it's really more mental than anything. Dan Kanivas 8:15 Sure. Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of a lot of military training military schools are very mental, very psychological. And that's intentional. that's intentional. You do leave Ranger School, and this is not a new sentiment that I'm expressing other people express this too, you do leave Ranger School, if you pass it feeling like you're fairly impervious to things that life can throw at you. Brian Schoenborn 8:41 Oh know, for sure. It's the same with the Marines. Dan Kanivas 8:45 Put it lightly right Brian Schoenborn 8:46 You get through there and you're just like, “I could do anything. I'm Superman!” Dan Kanivas 8:50 Exactly. Exactly. And so that that is the whole intent. That's the whole intent, right, of any Military School. And so… Brian Schoenborn 9:02 Last thing you want is somebody going into, you know, going into fire potentially with any sort of self-doubt. Dan Kanivas 9:09 Right, right. Brian Schoenborn 9:10 Hesitation will kill you. Dan Kanivas 9:11 Right. That's completely the idea and the military, US military is fantastic at training people to be able to do those sorts of things. To act against your basic instinct of self-preservation and do things that are essential for the survival of the team, the accomplishment of the mission. Brian Schoenborn 9:30 Absolutely. Dan Kanivas 9:31 So anyways, that was me at Ranger School, which took me a little while to get through. I didn't get through it right away. I didn't I wasn't a true blue just pass every phase the first time ago. took me a little while but I got through. Brian Schoenborn 9:45 And that's perseverance and resilience. Dan Kanivas 9:46 There you go there. Yeah, that's right. Brian Schoenborn 9:49 There's a lot of bunch of character. Dan Kanivas 9:50 There you go. That is one way to look at it. Dan Kanivas 9:53 And then for airborne school, a lot of people go to Ranger School already Airborne qualified meaning they've successfully passed Airborne School, but in my case I didn't. I got sent to Ranger School first. Brian Schoenborn 10:05 Okay. Dan Kanivas 10:06 Basically once you pass Ranger School, you're already at Fort Benning when you when you finish up which is the home of the infantry and also the home and Airborne School, and they're going to give you — the the people who are responsible for processing you — give you orders Airborne School after that, because oftentimes those two things go together. The Airborne Ranger, you know, the missions go together. And, they generally had extra slots to give right there at Fort Benning, and so I just got a slot for the next one. Dan Kanivas 10:37 And so, typically every school certainly is an intense school, you're jumping out of airplanes, right? And safety is paramount and taking care of, of your buddies your teammates is paramount and certainly the instructors there are not, not kind about any any infractions, right? Brian Schoenborn 10:55 I'm sure. Dan Kanivas 10:56 But given the experience, I just previously gone through Ranger School, Airborne School was relatively easy. And so I I use it as mainly a three-week vacation. Brian Schoenborn 11:08 So you got your Ranger School and you're just like, “Yeah, I'm good. I'll just breeze right through here, chill on the beach.” Dan Kanivas 11:13 Yeah, I wouldn't have felt that way that I'm not just been through that experience, but because I had it felt that way to me. It's all about relative intensity. Brian Schoenborn 11:22 You're seeing these guys struggling and you're like, psh! Dan Kanivas 11:25 Yeah, I wouldn't go that far. We're still, I still out there in the you know, the in the Georgia heat and in June, but yeah, Brian Schoenborn 11:33 I mean, all due respect to everybody. Dan Kanivas 11:34 Yes, of course. Brian Schoenborn 11:36 Of course, you know, it's all relative, like you said. Dan Kanivas 11:38 That's right. It's all relative. It just happened to be that I was coming out of… Brian Schoenborn 11:42 of a different situations. Dan Kanivas 11:43 Yeah, right. Exactly. So and yeah, and that was the that was my training in the military. It took a year for me to get through six months of my Artillery School and then Ranger School and Airborne School and there's some kind of downtime in between all these things. So yeah, I spent a year and training. And then they sent me off my first actual duty station, which was Korea where, again, the privilege of serving for two years. Brian Schoenborn 12:09 So we're so so this was near the DMZ, right? Dan Kanivas 12:12 Yes. So at the time, the I'm not sure where where everyone's stationed now. But at the time I was stationed north of Seoul, but not quite the DMZ. At two different bases, Camp Red Cloud and Camp Casey, who my dog's name after, by the way. At those two duty stations, I served with the second Infantry Division the whole time, but specifically the artillery unit that I was with at Camp Casey was 138 field artillery, which has rocket launchers. MLRS, multiple launch rocket system, rocket launchers as its primary weapon system. Brian Schoenborn 12:54 So were, I'm just trying to get an understanding of like, where about you? I mean, you said you're near the DMZ, But like, can you maybe show me on a map? Dan Kanivas 13:02 So yeah, sure. So… Brian Schoenborn 13:03 So audience listening at home, you could just just kind of visualize it. Dan Kanivas 13:06 So if you pull up Google Maps and zoom in on Seoul, which is towards the northwest of South Korea. Brian Schoenborn 13:13 Yeah, I'm looking at it as it's I mean, I've been to Seoul yet. So it's it's literally like, what 20 miles or something? Dan Kanivas 13:19 Yeah, from from the border. Brian Schoenborn 13:20 From the border, from the North Korea border? Dan Kanivas 13:22 And Seoul is well within artillery range of the North Korean artillery. That's near the border. And as a result, that means all the American troops and ROK, Republic of Korea troops, who are north of Seoul, also within archery range of the North Korean guns, and so… Brian Schoenborn 13:40 …and that's what, the 49th parallel? Dan Kanivas 13:43 I think so i think so. Brian Schoenborn 13:44 49 or 47th, something like that. Dan Kanivas 13:45 I think so. Yeah. And so you see this Wejunboo here? Brian Schoenborn 13:48 Yep. Dan Kanivas 13:49 That was,that is where Camp Red Cloud is located. And so I was stationed there for a little bit and then further north in Tongduchun there is where Camp Casey's located where I was stationed for my second year. Brian Schoenborn 13:59 Huh, yeah, so that's literally I mean, that was like, probably no more than like 20 miles. Dan Kanivas 14:05 Yeah, it's it's pretty short. It's it's not a lot of distance. And while you're stationed in Korea, you also had the opportunity to do the JSA tour, if you saw these…the JSA stands for Joint Security Area. If you saw the news footage about Donald Trump crossing into North Korea. That's exactly where you where you do it. And so you can as a US service member, go and visit there and take a tour and you know, the US service members and Korean service members who are there, both maintaining the area and protecting the area will take you on a tour of the area. Brian Schoenborn 14:41 So do they allow you to cross the border? Dan Kanivas 14:43 Technically, I've crossed into North Korea technically, yeah. Brian Schoenborn 14:46 Wow. Dan Kanivas 14:46 What they do is there's these buildings, which again, you can see in the footage with Donald Trump. They're these buildings where the negotiations between the two sides have historically happened. These buildings are bisected by the border, by the actual border. Brian Schoenborn 15:00 So like, is there, like, a demarcation line or something like that? Dan Kanivas 15:04 There is. If you look at any pictures of it, you can see there's a line. And so what the on the tour, what they'll do is they'll take you on the tour, and they'll go, one of the Korean guards will go and check the building and go lock the far side door that's in North Korean territory. And then you go inside the building, and when you're inside the building, you can see all around the building and technically cross into North Korea. Brian Schoenborn 15:27 You know, it's interesting, because I've heard so many stories of like, you know, North Koreans trying to defect and crossing the border and right, you know, getting shot or something like that. Dan Kanivas 15:37 Right. Brian Schoenborn 15:37 So like, you know, so everything that I've heard throughout the years is like, the DMZ, like that line border is like the most dangerous border in the world, because there's never officially the war has never officially ended. Dan Kanivas 15:49 Right. It's still under an armistice. And so it is they're there. It's a heavily guarded border. You wouldn't cross there at the JSA because there's a lot of attention at that location, but I imagine there are other points along the border where there the defenses are softer. It's less monitored at any given time. Also, defectors go through China as well as Russia. Because both of those countries border North Korea. Brian Schoenborn 16:18 Well, I've heard there's actually a whole like, almost like an underground railroad to us like an American historical reference. Dan Kanivas 16:24 Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 16:24 But there's you know, there's like this whole network of people that like help get people through. The northern border. Through China. And and yeah, maybe down to like Southeast Asia or something like that. Back to the south. Dan Kanivas 16:35 Exactly. Yeah, exactly. That's that's exactly how that underground railroad works. Brian Schoenborn 16:41 Yeah, in essence, right? Pretty much the same thing? Dan Kanivas 16:43 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 16:45 I wonder like, so so you cross over the border. Dan Kanivas 16:48 Right. Brian Schoenborn 16:51 And…how do I say this? So what was the experience like? You said heavily heavily guarded is it also like, you know, let me put it this way. When I was living in China, all right? I was in Beijing. I've got a lot of friends that have visited North Korea. Americans, English, other expats. Americans can only fly in. Dan Kanivas 17:19 Okay. Brian Schoenborn 17:19 For example. Dan Kanivas 17:19 Okay, they can't drive into the Chinese border? Brian Schoenborn 17:22 They can't take the train through the Chinese border. Dan Kanivas 17:23 Right. Brian Schoenborn 17:24 I forget the name of the city, Dongdan or something. Dan Kanivas 17:27 Okay. Brian Schoenborn 17:28 But if you're if you're English, you can take the train. Dan Kanivas 17:31 Okay. Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 17:32 If you're American, you have to fly in. And from what I understand, like it's the most eye opening like, surreal experiences they've ever had. Dan Kanivas 17:42 Yeah, that's what everyone says. Yeah. Right. Brian Schoenborn 17:44 You know, like, it's one of those things where you can only go the tour group. Dan Kanivas 17:48 Yep. Brian Schoenborn 17:49 And you do absolutely everything. Dan Kanivas 17:53 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 17:54 That they tell you to. Dan Kanivas 17:54 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 17:55 You don't do anything else. Dan Kanivas 17:56 Right. Brian Schoenborn 17:57 I've got some friends at ran the Pyongyang marathon. Dan Kanivas 18:00 Wow. Brian Schoenborn 18:00 Right? Which they've done every year for the last, I don't know, five years at least, something like that. Dan Kanivas 18:05 Okay. Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 18:06 But it's one of those things where the North Koreans run first. Dan Kanivas 18:10 Okay. Brian Schoenborn 18:10 So that way they Dan Kanivas 18:11 So they win…Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 18:15 North Koreans get the head start. Um, but I've got friends that have done that and I've got a, I've actually got a friend, I think he's still in Beijing, but he owns and operates this tour group in North Korea. In fact, he actually he was the tour group operator that was heading this group in which Otto Warmbier was arrested… Dan Kanivas 18:46 Right, for potentially doing…he was accused of… Brian Schoenborn 18:49 Apparently apparently what happened is he tried to steal a poster or something. Like, apprently a propaganda poster or something. Dan Kanivas 18:55 Right, right. Right. Brian Schoenborn 18:56 We don't need to get into all that, like it's just kind of a, I know some people that have significant experience in North Korea, that's the point that I'm making. So when I hear that it's like a surreal experience, you know, I'm just kind of curious if you've had anything similar like that in your experience crossing the border, even though it may have been limited since you're in this building. Dan Kanivas 19:17 No, no, I did not have any experiences like that every. I think most people who have that JSA Joint Security Area experience is going to be very similar to mine. Brian Schoenborn 19:26 Yeah. Dan Kanivas 19:27 It's very scripted. Designed to be that way. Brian Schoenborn 19:33 Yeah. Dan Kanivas 19:34 It's still a singular experience a unique experience, because there's not too many other places in the world where… Brian Schoenborn 19:44 I don't know if there's any place in the world that's like that. Dan Kanivas 19:45 Exactly, right. There may be not there may not be right. But it's not anything like actually going to Pyongyang and running a marathon there. That's, I can't imagine what that's like. Brian Schoenborn 19:55 Well, maybe even something like that, like from what I hear from what I've heard, um like, as soon as you land or arrive in North Korea, the police or the guards, whatever. They'll take your phone and they'll go through all your photos. Dan Kanivas 20:08 Yeah, I'm sure. Brian Schoenborn 20:09 And makes sure that there's nothing that's like wouldn't be in line with the North Korea's values. Dan Kanivas 20:14 Yeah, I'm sure. Brian Schoenborn 20:15 And I guess they check your footagae, you cameras, and all that stuff as you're leaving. Dan Kanivas 20:18 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 20:19 Make sure you're not you know, it makes you like there's there's apparently there's only one way you can take pictures of the dear leaders. Dan Kanivas 20:24 Okay. Brian Schoenborn 20:25 Right? Things like that, so so if you're like, even veering off from that a little bit, you're screwed. Dan Kanivas 20:30 Yeah, yeah. I, this is not a level of risk that I would be comfortable taking, but more power to the people who want that sort of adventure in their lives. Brian Schoenborn 20:40 You know what's funny is, a couple of my friends were like, yo, let's do the Pyongyang marathon. And I'm like, Oh, that sounds sweet. Let's do it. Like, I'll fall in line and do absolutely everything that you know, not color out of the lines. Dan Kanivas 20:52 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 20:53 Right? And I put a message on Facebook. I was like, I think I'm gonna go to North Korea and my mom and my older sister were freaking out, dude. Dan Kanivas 21:02 Yeah, sure. Brian Schoenborn 21:03 They're like, Oh my god, Brian, you've done some like, you know, you've done some crazy things in your life, but please don't do this. Dan Kanivas 21:09 Right. Right. Brian Schoenborn 21:11 So I buckled in our didn't go. Dan Kanivas 21:13 Yeah, yeah. Brian Schoenborn 21:15 So what do you think you're kind of bringing back to this this DMZ thing? You mentioned? You know, Donald Trump stepped over? Dan Kanivas 21:22 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 21:24 What do you kind of make of all of that sort of curiosity? Dan Kanivas 21:28 I don't have much an opinion on it. I'm not a Trump supporter. Brian Schoenborn 21:33 Yeah. Dan Kanivas 21:34 And so… Brian Schoenborn 21:35 I'm not trying to be too political, but it is a historical moment. Dan Kanivas 21:39 Yeah. I don't know. How much intention was behind it. I don't know generally what his strategy or lack thereof is with North Korea. Brian Schoenborn 21:49 Yeah. Dan Kanivas 21:50 All I know is I'm not a Trump supporter in any way, shape, or form. Brian Schoenborn 21:54 Yeah, no, I mean, same here. You know, I feel like he's he ramped up this crisis unnecessarily, in my opinion. Dan Kanivas 22:04 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 22:06 And now he's going to try to find a way to put it back the way it was before. And, like, claim the victory. Dan Kanivas 22:11 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 22:13 Like he's done with so many other just like, Jesus, dude. Sorry, anyways, we can we can move on from that. What other stuff did you do as an artie officer? Like where like, were you, were you other places as well, or..? So you mentioned you're there for like two years? Dan Kanivas 22:29 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 22:29 How long were you in the service overall? Dan Kanivas 22:30 So four and a half years in active duty. So I mentioned one year and training two years in Korea, where most of the time not the whole time I was actually doing an artillery job. I was also a general's aide for a little bit. And then after that, I got orders to go to Iraq on a military transition team and what those what those teams are, MIT teams for short. Acronyms for everything in military, of course. On the MIT team, we were responsible for training Iraqi security forces, be they Army, be the police, so that we could eventually pull out. Brian Schoenborn 23:06 Right. Dan Kanivas 23:06 And they can be self sufficient. And so this was back in 2008. I got I got the orders 2007, but I deployed in 2008, after some training at Fort Riley, Kansas. And while…you have a question? Brian Schoenborn 23:20 Yeah, well, I'm just thinking like 2008 we're were we with the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts? Was that during like the counterinsurgency plan, or…? Dan Kanivas 23:30 Yes, it was, it was during the surge, and so the unit I relieved, the MIT team that I relieved, was just coming down off the surge. They'd been there for the surge, and I was relieving them. And so luckily, I think history will show this to be true. It certainly felt that way to me over there, the surge worked, it worked. The additional deployment of troops and also more importantly the deployment of a strategy to solve the root problem of, or help solve the root problem, or trap the root problem of what was going on in Iraq at the time, which is that there are a lot of unemployed, underemployed, especially males, young and otherwise. Brian Schoenborn 24:20 Desperation. Dan Kanivas 24:21 Right, who couldn't feed their families because previously they had a source of patronage that the US took away. The US restored a lot of that patronage, hired the Sons of Iraq and things like that, to pay them essentially to not attack not just us, but also their fellow countrymen and provide some light security duties. And that in conjunction with additional US troop deployment, actually did the trick. And so when I got to Iraq in 2008, I spent the year in 2008-2009, doing training for two different Iraqi Army units. One didn't really need us anymore, the mission was essentially considered more or less accomplished, they were trained. And so we spent about six months down before I was sent up further up north east to a brand new unit in Kirku. Dan Kanivas 25:09 And this is where I most of my experience I remember, most of my experience there, it's more vivid there, where we're trying to help stand up a brand new unit. And try to help them do simple things like get concertina wire to string around their perimeter. Brian Schoenborn 25:25 And what is concertina wire? Dan Kanivas 25:27 So is barbed wire, the military version of barbed wire. Brian Schoenborn 25:31 It's like the spiral? Dan Kanivas 25:32 Yeah, the spiral with with the barbs on it. And it's much more intense than…well, it's what you see above prison, a chainlink fence in prison. Brian Schoenborn 25:42 That's right. Dan Kanivas 25:43 So more intense than you'd see perhaps in a pasture. So getting concertina wire around the perimeter, getting their soldiers to get the proper uniforms, getting their soldiers to learn how to put on the proper uniform, so it's like that. Brian Schoenborn 25:54 Essentially setting them up for success. So they can be self-sustaining. Dan Kanivas 25:58 Right, so basic things like that. I'll say a few things about this, the Iraqi officers that we worked with, who almost by definition, to the last man had served under Saddam. Almost by definition, not everybody, but almost all of them, because in order to be that senior, had the experience, they had to have served under Saddam. They were very professional in general. Some of them, you know, had less experience and they were more political appointees, had less, were perhaps less professional that way. Dan Kanivas 26:27 Most of them were very professional. They generally knew what they were doing under their own system. But like all bureaucracies they never could get all the supplies they needed. They could never get all the ammo they needed, the training they needed. The manpower, the money. Brian Schoenborn 26:41 Basically various extremely important choke points, bottlenecks. Dan Kanivas 26:45 Exactly. So we made due with what what we had. Luckily, again, at the time, the surge, I was a beneficiary of the surge having worked out pretty well. So my time in Iraq, generally, was pretty peaceful. Generally. Brian Schoenborn 27:00 Let me ask you, kind of in general, about the Iraqi people. Dan Kanivas 27:04 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 27:04 Right? So like, I didn't go. I was medically discharged or, you know, whatever you can listen to RELENTLESS and hear that whole story. But I was discharged one week before my unit went to Iraq. Post 911. My unit was the first to go to Iraq, we fought they fought in Fallujah. Dan Kanivas 27:23 Yeah, right. Brian Schoenborn 27:24 It was fucking crazy. Dan Kanivas 27:26 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 27:26 But I never got my I never got the opportunity to I was never there. Dan Kanivas 27:32 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 27:32 Right? Let's put it that way. So I'm just wondering, you know, like you hear on the news all the time about like, the terrorists and like, you knows, which ties in with like anti-muslim sentiment and stuff like that. I'm just curious, like, you know, you spent like, a year and a half over there or something like that? Dan Kanivas 27:49 A year. Yeah. Dan Kanivas 27:50 A year? Okay. Brian Schoenborn 27:50 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 27:51 So you spent a year over there, um, any work with some of these generals and high ranking officers. I imagine you probably interacted with some of the people, like, the everyday civilians as well, a little bit or no? Dan Kanivas 28:03 Not as much, sometimes we did, but not not too too much. My job wasn't that I wasn't on patrols trying to learn about what was going on at the village chief's house or something like that. Brian Schoenborn 28:17 Well, I guess I mean, I'm not necessarily saying that I'm kind of thinking more like, you know, what was your general impression of like the culture and like the people like at their core, even you know, even if they were some of Saddam Hussein's henchmen or whatever you want to call them, right hands. I'm just kind of curious, like, what the, the, the the, the overall feeling? Dan Kanivas 28:39 I suspect that it would be the overall feeling that you would have in a lot of other countries that are foreign to you. Brian Schoenborn 28:49 Sure. Dan Kanivas 28:50 So people will keep to themselves that they don't have any particular business to be dealing with you. I mean, I was rolling around in heavily-armored via with machine guns. Brian Schoenborn 29:01 So you stood out a little bit. Dan Kanivas 29:02 Yeah, right. So, but that's dead. I can't remember single instance where I did interact with people and folks were angry at me or there's a mob yelling at me or something like that, that that never happened. I remember one time we broke down in the middle of a small village, small town that was along the roads that the road that we often traveled through, and we broke down. So we had to perform recovery operations to get our vehicle moving again, we essentially towed one of the back to the base. No one gathered around us and started anything, they just left us alone. Dan Kanivas 29:42 And I think generally that is the attitude that most people would take, because there's not a lot of advantage, I think. to be gained by interacting with heavily-armed people unless you're trying to harm them or otherwise have a mission related to that. People just want to be left in peace, they want to take care of their families. Right? And they want the same things for their families that that we would want for ours. Brian Schoenborn 30:08 You know, it's curious that you mentioned that, you know, with your experience during more time, right? You know, like, I'm always curious about this stuff, because in my travels, you know, like I've been to I traveled through Vietnam, for example. Dan Kanivas 30:23 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 30:23 Three weeks backpacking Vietnam. Dan Kanivas 30:25 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 30:26 I lived in China for over three and a half years. Dan Kanivas 30:28 Right. Brian Schoenborn 30:29 Right? And one of the things that surprised me most about Vietnam was how friendly, how genuine the people were, and and how much they love Americans. Dan Kanivas 30:41 Right. Brian Schoenborn 30:42 Or just people in general. You know? They're a very warm welcome, people. Dan Kanivas 30:46 Right. Brian Schoenborn 30:46 And then like in China, I remember when I first came back home like six months after staying in China. I ran across this lady that I grew up with in church or whatever. And she goes, “Brian, what are you doing?” And I go, “Oh yeah, I'm living in China or whatever.” She goes, “China? China? Brian, what are you doing there? I'm so scared. China's communist, like, are you okay?” Dan Kanivas 31:08 Right. Brian Schoenborn 31:09 And I go, “I fucking love it there. You know like the government's, yes CCP, all that stuff, right, authoritarian, whatever you want to call it. Dan Kanivas 31:17 Right. Brian Schoenborn 31:18 But most people don't really pay attention to it. Dan Kanivas 31:20 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 31:23 Most people in general are very welcoming, you know, they want to share their culture with you. Dan Kanivas 31:30 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 31:30 Right? They wanna share their food. Dan Kanivas 31:32 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 31:32 They want to drink with you. Dan Kanivas 31:33 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 31:34 China's a heavily smoking country. Dan Kanivas 31:35 Oh yeah. Brian Schoenborn 31:36 They want to they want you to try their regional cigarettes. That's why smoke again. It's ridiculous but you know, like this very warm, welcoming people. Dan Kanivas 31:45 Right. Brian Schoenborn 31:46 And essentially what it what it sounds like you're telling me is like you know, place in Iraq, even with all the propaganda that we receive, right? People, pretty much anywhere you go, whether it's an enemy or whether it's a country that we've fought before, or whether it's a people that were fighting at that moment? Dan Kanivas 32:06 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 32:07 You know, people are essentially people. They all want the same stuff. Dan Kanivas 32:10 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 32:10 Right? They have to they want to be able to provide for their family. Dan Kanivas 32:13 Right. Brian Schoenborn 32:14 Right? They want to live in a safe environment. Dan Kanivas 32:17 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 32:19 And they want to, you know, and they want to have a small little group of family and friends, like people can be successful, right, like people want to have some sort of value, right? Dan Kanivas 32:28 Yes, absolutely. 100% I think it's human nature. Brian Schoenborn 32:32 Yeah. Dan Kanivas 32:33 Cultures affect the expression of that. But ultimately, that's human nature, and it's going to be universal. I didn't have the good fortune of interacting as much with the average Iraqi while I was over there, because my mission just didn't take me there. But the Iraqis I did interact with, whether they were military, or they were soldiers that I was serving with, advising, or otherwise helping, or our interpreters who were with us. I generally had a good experience with them. And I have, you know, nothing. I have nothing negative to say about that interaction. Brian Schoenborn 33:16 And I think that's really, um, I think that's poignant. Because when you're fighting in different you know, when you're when you're at war with another side easy for all that stuff to get lost. Dan Kanivas 33:28 Sure, yeah. Brian Schoenborn 33:28 Because what whichever side you're on, you know, they're they're propagating to turn this turn this group of people into an enemy or whatever. Dan Kanivas 33:35 Right. Brian Schoenborn 33:35 And dehumanise them. Dan Kanivas 33:36 Sure, sure. Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 33:37 You know, and, you know, you may you may have disagreements on like fundamental beliefs. Dan Kanivas 33:42 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 33:43 But at the core, we're all the fucking same. Dan Kanivas 33:45 Yeah, and part of my mission was to do the exact opposite, that not dehumanize but understand that we were fighting the same fight on the same side, of most people anyways. And that we had shared interests and shared values they gave us, the military gave us, a fair amount of cultural training before we went. I, I can, not today, but at the time, I tried to conduct as much of my conversations with my counterparts, my Iraqi counterparts in Arabic as possible. I always had an interpreter with me, obviously, I don't speak Arabic. But I tried to pick up phrases here and there. Brian Schoenborn 34:27 Yeah, sure. Dan Kanivas 34:28 That would be helpful. Brian Schoenborn 34:30 And that goes a long way too, right? Dan Kanivas 34:31 Oh, yeah, it goes a long way. It goes a long way. A long way. Brian Schoenborn 34:34 When I was in China, like, I took one lesson. But everything else I picked up. You know, the emergency Chinese, survival Chinese, that sort of thing. But even if I could just say “hello” in Chinese, there like, “Oh, my God, you know, you get us.” Dan Kanivas 34:48 Yeah. Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 34:50 It goes a long way, man. Um, yeah, I think that's I think that's pretty interesting. I think that's pretty interesting. But I do want to move on to some other stuff. Dan Kanivas 34:58 Okay, yes, absolutely. Let's do it. Brian Schoenborn 35:00 We could talk about that and get as deep as we want them off that as long as humanly possible. But I think the biggest point for me on that is, you know, it's pretty interesting shit, and you know, something that you've realized is that people are people are people. Dan Kanivas 35:17 Yep. 100%. Brian Schoenborn 35:19 And I think that needs to be made more known. Dan Kanivas 35:21 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 35:24 When you've got people like our current president threatening to wipe Afghanistan off the face of the map. Dan Kanivas 35:29 I did not catch him say that. But if he did say that, that's very wrong. Brian Schoenborn 35:33 So he was meeting with the leader of Pakistan. I think his name is Mohammad Sharaf or something. Dan Kanivas 35:38 Okay. Brian Schoenborn 35:39 I forget his name, exactly. They were in the White House or Oval Office with the camera opportunity. Like he's been doing where he's got this leader, but he's really just talking about his own stupid agenda. Dan Kanivas 35:50 Of course. Brian Schoenborn 35:50 Right? And he, someone asked him about Afghanistan, and he goes, “Look, I have all sorts of options with Afghanistan. If I want to, I can wipe Afghanistan off the face of the map.” He's like, “I don't want to kill 10 million people. But if I had to, I could do it.” Dan Kanivas 36:09 Awful just, awful. Brian Schoenborn 36:10 And so Afghanistan comes back and they're like, “Fuck you, dude, how could you possibly say that?” Dan Kanivas 36:15 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 36:15 And everybody else do like, seriously. You know, it's called soft power. Dan Kanivas 36:20 Incredibly bad. Incredibly bad. Brian Schoenborn 36:22 Obviously we can do that, but you don't talk about it. Dan Kanivas 36:25 Incredibly bad but that's but it's unfortunately par for the course here. Brian Schoenborn 36:31 I know. It's not fair. Why? Dan Kanivas 36:37 You know, the scary thing too is that there's a lot of writing, articles, etc, from news sources that are typically considered liberal that are saying that Trump will probably win reelection, which is just scary to think about. Brian Schoenborn 36:56 Well, I think right now. Again, without getting too political or topical, but I think right now, the democratic field is so big. Dan Kanivas 37:07 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 37:08 That it's hard for that base. To really consolidate around one person. Dan Kanivas 37:15 Right. I agree. I agree with you. Brian Schoenborn 37:19 So I think as various candidates drop off, you know, that will consolidate itself a little bit more. And, you know, hopefully, hopefully that madman is dethroned. Dan Kanivas 37:34 Oh, I I thoroughly hope so. Brian Schoenborn 37:36 You know? Cuz I think he's setting us back a long way. Dan Kanivas 37:41 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 37:43 But, you know, we'll have to wait to see you know, like, last last cycle, or last presidential cycle. You know, everyone thought that Hillary was gonna kill it. Dan Kanivas 37:51 Yeah, right. I remember where it was that night on election night. 2016. And I remember exactly what it was. was like and what it felt like in the depths of depression that we all went through then. So yeah. Brian Schoenborn 38:05 Yeah. I remember I was sitting in Beijing watching this thing going, “I'm not coming for the next four years, maybe eight.” Dan Kanivas 38:15 Yeah, I contrast that with how I felt, I was in Iraq in November in 2008, and I remember being in the dining facility at the time. We got news that Obama had won. And wow, the feeling of excitement then, was great. Brian Schoenborn 38:34 Yeah. You know, what's weird is like, I actually I was a registered Republican for like, 10 years. I was always like, fiscally conservative, socially liberal kind of guy. Not that any of this matters, but I voted for Romney and McCain. Dan Kanivas 38:51 Sure. Brian Schoenborn 38:51 Right, so I didn't vote for Obama either time, but I've since dropped my affiliation. But I also believe that Barack Obama is probably the best president we've had in our generation. Dan Kanivas 39:06 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 39:07 I think hands down. Dan Kanivas 39:08 I agree with that. Brian Schoenborn 39:09 Yeah, I mean, you know, there's there's positives and negatives that you can say about anybody, but that's kind of how I feel. Dan Kanivas 39:15 Yep. Brian Schoenborn 39:15 Um, so I want to move out, move on, like move out of military stuff a little bit. Because I know you're up to some really cool stuff. Dan Kanivas 39:21 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 39:22 I mean, you've managed to maintain your, your physical endurance activities, that kind of stuff. Dan Kanivas 39:30 Trying to, trying to, yeah. Brian Schoenborn 39:32 I know, you mentioned something about Mount Rainier. Can you tell me like what you're planning to do? And like how this whole thing came about? Dan Kanivas 39:39 Yeah, sure. So last year, one of my friends texts me and says, “Hey, Dan, do you want to climb Mount Rainier?” And I said, “Okay, I'm interested. What What does that entail?” He's like, “Well, we can go with guides and they'll take us through it. It's a four-day program. It would be next August, but you have to decide now. And you have to decide, like right now basically today.” And I said, “Okay, let me go ask my wife.” And so I said, she said, sure, that sounds good. And I said, “Okay, all right, I'm in.” Dan Kanivas 40:18 I had no idea what it entailed. I had zero idea would entail. So my friend who, who, who asked me to do this was my friend from the Army who was in Korea. He just recently got out of the Army. So he's in much better shape than I have than I am. Than I am. I've been out for almost 10 years now. But we've been training. We've been training for trying to summit Mount Rainier next month. So actually, tomorrow, we are headed out to Mount St. Helens, again for the second time this season, to do our last big training hike before Rainier, when we attempt that, and so that is something I'm definitely looking forward to. Come, you know, one way or the other is going to it's all going to culminate here in a few weeks. Dan Kanivas 41:06 I'm looking forward to that. Of course, I hope I'm successful. Of course, I hope the weather cooperates and I have the endurance and the fitness and the ability to, to make the summit and all that stuff. But ultimately, I'm looking for just the general experience. Brian Schoenborn 41:22 Nice. Well, so let me let me clarify for our listeners right now. So we're currently in the city of Seattle. Dan Kanivas 41:30 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 41:30 Right. So Mount St. Helens and Mount Rainier. Those are the two of the those are the biggest peaks, right? Dan Kanivas 41:37 Rainier is the tallest one here in the state of Washington. St. Helens. I don't know where it ranks, but it's up there. Brian Schoenborn 41:43 It's up there, right? Dan Kanivas 41:43 It's up there. Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 41:44 So like how, and they're not far, they're like an hour, two, or three something like that. Dan Kanivas 41:48 You can drive north-south througn the state of Washington, you know, comfortably within hours, not two hours, but they're all within driving distance of Seattle, yes. Brian Schoenborn 42:01 Okay yeah um so so they're close by but they're like huge. Dan Kanivas 42:05 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 42:05 You can see them on the horizon and see at least Rainier. Do you have an idea like how like how tall these are like their peaks or whatever? Dan Kanivas 42:16 Yeah I don't know St. Helens off the top of my head. Brian Schoenborn 42:19 Is it like a 10er, 10,000 foot-ish? Dan Kanivas 42:21 I want to say it's like eight or nine something like that, but Rainier is over 14,000. Brian Schoenborn 42:26 Yeah. Dan Kanivas 42:26 Yeah, so it's it's definitely tall. It's some serious altitude. When you do it, I've been told that, I haven't done it yet that you do feel the effects of altitude sickness. Yeah, so it's, it's definitely going to be a challenge. Brian Schoenborn 42:44 So Mt. St. Helens is a pretty good prepper. Dan Kanivas 42:46 Yeah, I think it's it's definitely on the training plan for a lot of folks and Mount St. Helens. Because it is popular for people to hike and climb, you have to get permits during the season in order to be able to hike it. So, I'm going with some other friends of, same group of people who I'm training for Mount Rainier plus, we're adding on a few more to do Mount St. Helens again in two days. Brian Schoenborn 43:10 Oh cool. Two days? Dan Kanivas 43:12 Yeah so Saturday is what we do is we will take off tomorrow afternoon from Seattle head down their, bed down for a little bit, and then start alpine start two am, something like that, so that we can start start headed up to the top of St. Helens while still while it's still dark out. Still cool out. And then if we're lucky, depending on conditions we might get to glacade down St. Helens. Brian Schoenborn 43:38 What is that? Dan Kanivas 43:38 So yes, this is the funnest part of and the payoff for climbing. So you get to the top and there's snow. And what people have done rather than walk back down is you ride the snow back down. Brian Schoenborn 43:54 Dude that sounds so awesome! Dan Kanivas 43:56 Yeah. So so that that I'm excited for Hopefully that will happen. That's what we did last time, but we also went May when I suspect there was a lot more snow. This time, there should still be plenty of snow to glacade down, but I don't actually know. Brian Schoenborn 44:11 How are you? How are you sliding down on this? Like snowboards, toboggans, just like the little $5 plastic sleds, like the saucer slows? What do you, uh, what's going on there? Dan Kanivas 44:20 All of the above. Some people bring their snowboards, some people bring their skis. You can just do it in hardshell pants. You can even take, and this is what I did last time, you take a trash bag and just ride down on a trash bag. Brian Schoenborn 44:32 Dude, that's sweet. Dan Kanivas 44:33 It works. And it's sure as hell beats walking down. Brian Schoenborn 44:39 I bet. Dan Kanivas 44:40 You don't want to walk anymore after you reach the top. So yeah, glacading down is is pretty fantastic. Brian Schoenborn 44:46 But that reminds me of, I'm doing these Nicaragua stories right now. That reminds me this time I summitted a, it was a short volcano. Dan Kanivas 44:55 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 44:56 Right. But it waas an active volcano. Dan Kanivas 44:58 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 44:58 One of the world's youngest volcanoes. Dan Kanivas 45:00 Okay, yeah. So it's millions and millions of year old, but it's one of the world's youngest. Brian Schoenborn 45:05 No, no, it's only like 150. Dan Kanivas 45:06 Oh really? Brian Schoenborn 45:07 Yeah. Dan Kanivas 45:07 Oh wow. Brian Schoenborn 45:08 Okay, it actually sprung up out of the cornfield in like the 1800s. Dan Kanivas 45:11 Oh, it's a 150 years old? Not a 150,000? 150 years old? Brian Schoenborn 45:18 Yeah, and apparently it blows up, it blows like every 15 years or something like that. Dan Kanivas 45:21 Oh okay. Brian Schoenborn 45:22 And when I was there it was around 15 years I don't know if it's it didn't blow up when I was there but it was definitely active. Dan Kanivas 45:28 Sure, sure, sure, yes. You see gasses and… Brian Schoenborn 45:30 At the summite could see a little, in the crater. And you could see gasses coming up out of the ground. Dan Kanivas 45:35 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 45:36 So we went to the top of it. Brian Schoenborn 45:38 Yeah. And we had a fast way down too. Yeah, we we with with the tour group. They gave us this backpack. And you can choose between a snowboard-looking thing. And like a mini toboggan-looking Dan Kanivas 45:51 Yeah, nice. Brian Schoenborn 45:52 And we volcano surfed. Dan Kanivas 45:55 Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah. I like the outdoors a lot. I generally don't say no when people want to do outdoorsy things but I almost never wake up and say to myself, “I really need to get outdoors today.” Brian Schoenborn 46:10 Yeah. Dan Kanivas 46:11 I for better for worse live in my head a lot. I love to read. I love strategy games, things like that. Right? So I don't feel compelled to go and get outdoors. However, I'm almost never, I almost never regret it. Because there's so much fun to be had outdoors, including volcano surfing. That's awesome. Brian Schoenborn 46:32 You know, like, like, well glacading or volcano surfing. I mean, what else can you do that is there's only so many volcanoes. It's not like they're everywhere. I mean, they're they're all over the world. Yeah, but they're only in very specific locations. Dan Kanivas 46:46 Yeah, they're very, they're very cool experiences. A lot of people I've talked to about, you know, our pending Mt. Rainier adventure here are very curious about it because they do realize that, okay, yeah, there's not a lot of other ways to kind of express this sort of desire to experience nature and experience your own backyard, your own environments in a very in a unique and very singular sort of way. And so you just got to go out there and do it right and you have which is fantastic. Brian Schoenborn 47:25 I'll never forget that. That sounds fucking awesome. I'm super looking forward to hearing about all of it. Dan Kanivas 47:31 Yeah, fingers crossed it all goes well, so yeah. Brian Schoenborn 47:33 I got a pretty good feeling about it. You mentioned something about strategy stuff? You do strategy games? That kind of caught my attention. Dan Kanivas 47:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brian Schoenborn 47:44 Can you dive into that? What do you what kind of games you into like? Like for me, me and my brothers and my dad. We have a tradition every time we go home for the holidays, we play Risk. And we get super into it. Dan Kanivas 47:56 Yeah, sure. Brian Schoenborn 47:57 Like we used to like pretty much be out for blood for each other. Dan Kanivas 48:00 Oh, sure. Yeah, sure. Brian Schoenborn 48:01 Um, I think there might have been some fistfights. At one point where my mom was like she took it away, and she banned us from playing Risk for like 5 years. But I'm just curious, like, what can I hear the strategy stuff? What are the strategy games and other, you know, tell me like what kind of stuff to do. Dan Kanivas 48:17 So, growing up, definitely my favorite type of video game, for example, was role playing games. So RPGs, Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, that sort of thing. And if I had more time now I still play them because there's no shortage. There's no shortage of fantastic stories that are told through these through these media, right? Through those mediums, right. And they get you so invested and they know how to get you invested. These game designers know how to get invested. In college I played a lot of poker for various reasons: socially, also to try to attempt to win money mainly to lose it, but that things like that was a large part of my college experience. Dan Kanivas 49:04 And also as a kid, 12 years old, 11 years old that that sort of timeframe. It was around 94, 95, 96. So Magic the Gathering has just come out. Brian Schoenborn 49:16 Magic the Gathering? Dan Kanivas 49:17 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 49:18 You know, I've heard of that game. I think I'm a little bit older than you. I was, you know, I was active duty in the Marines in 2000, 2002. So I'm fucking old. Dan Kanivas 49:26 I was born in 1983. Brian Schoenborn 49:27 Oh I'm two years, about two years then. I remember, I think it was early in high school, you said seventh or eighth grade? Dan Kanivas 49:36 Yes. Brian Schoenborn 49:36 So that would put me in high school. Right? So I remember hearing about magic together. But I was kind of at that point where it was, I don't know, I just, I wasn't. I wasn't there at that point. Dan Kanivas 49:46 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Brian Schoenborn 49:46 You know, yeah, it was a different spot. Dan Kanivas 49:48 Oh, yeah. Brian Schoenborn 49:48 But my younger brother. He was born in 83. Dan Kanivas 49:50 Oh, yeah. Brian Schoenborn 49:52 Huge into Magic the Gathering. Shout out to Dave. Dan Kanivas 50:00 Being born at a certain time or being a certain age, in that timeframe, made all the difference. If I was actually a if I were actually a year older or two years older, it may have worked out that, you know, I may missed it just like you. Or I could have gotten in on even a little sooner. And had I done that then some of those cards from those era, from that era, which I missed by just about a year are invaluable now. Brian Schoenborn 50:31 Really? Dan Kanivas 50:32 They're quite, they're quite expensive. Yeah. Because it becomes collector's, collector's items. Brian Schoenborn 50:36 They're what, like baseball cards or something? Dan Kanivas 50:37 Yeah, that that idea that they're not being made anymore. So anyways, so I played for a little bit back in those days, as a middle schooler, and, you know, as the nerdy kid who was looking for something that was popular to do the time, well, mainly with other boys. This was, you know, spoke to me strategy games and the the fantasy portion of it, you know, dragons and, and demons and angels and stuff like that. That's pretty cool. Like, that was that kept us interested, but life moved in other directions. I got involved in sports, became more active socially, especially with the fairer sex. Brian Schoenborn 50:39 Sure, of course. Dan Kanivas 50:40 And so, you know, Magic disappeared from my life. Brian Schoenborn 51:22 And that's where I was at but just out of curiosity, do you recall like playing the game? Like, can you can you, cause, I don't know anything about it. Like, can you kind of give me like a high level, like the highest level overview like how it works? Dan Kanivas 51:40 Yes, sure. So it's a card game, that you take a set of cards and you build decks with them. And the idea is that you and your opponent is typically played one on one. Typically. You and our opponent are both powerful wizards, and you cast spells to try to defeat each other. The game was actually created by a grad student, I believe UPenn, a mathematics grad student at UPenn who had a lifelong fascination and love for games. And though, his name is Richard Garfield, though he's brilliant, this is going to be his legacy on Earth. Brian Schoenborn 52:24 Yeah. Dan Kanivas 52:24 So not mathematics or anything else. Most likely it's going to be this game, which is going to be very, very popular. Brian Schoenborn 52:30 It's pretty impressive legacy. Dan Kanivas 52:31 Yeah, absolutely. And he's still active in making games and things like that. But anyways, so that's the basic gist. You can use these cards, cast spells to try and defeat each other. And you know the game, though I left the game a long time ago, it grew and grew and grew and grew. And in 2018, last year, one of my friends who I worked with right out of business school, turned out that he has some cards. I talked to him about He's like, “Hey, Dan, did you know there's an online platform for this now that it's pretty nifty?” Brian Schoenborn 53:05 No way. Dan Kanivas 53:06 Yeah. And, you know… Brian Schoenborn 53:09 So like 15 years. Dan Kanivas 53:10 Yeah. 20 years. Brian Schoenborn 53:11 20 years? Dan Kanivas 53:12 Yeah 20 years. Had I not had that conversation? I don't think I would have rediscovered it but now it's 100% my guilty pleasure to play Magic the Gathering Arena Online. And it takes away a lot of the issues of having to play with paper cards, not that I don't like to play with them, I do. But it's one of these things where you don't have to do it in a room full of other people. You can do it from your bed, or from your desk, or on a train, right? Just on your laptop. Dan Kanivas 53:44 And what I thought I liked before about the game, the you know, the again, the fantastical aspects of it, right, the the dragons and stuff, actually turned out not to be the exciting part of the game for me. What I thought the game is how deep strategically it goes. It combines the the deep strategy of a game like Risk or Chess or Settlers of Catan, things like that, right? Where each choice you make really matters. It combines that with randomness. Again, that's, that's involved in Risk or Poker, right, where the top card of your deck that you don't know what it is, will change the outcome of the game. Dan Kanivas 54:32 And so the combination of those two things, the skill and the luck, the roll of the dice in Risk keeps people coming back for more, because it makes every game you play different. Which is really really cool. And it goes very, very deep. So I'm, I am a newly, newly reintegrated player. Brian Schoenborn 54:55 That's interesting you know, I've heard I've heard some people have been kind of resurging with like Dungeons and Dragons and stuff like that too. I dabbled with it, but I was never really like that into again that was my brother's sort of thing. Dan Kanivas 55:06 Yeah. Brian Schoenborn 55:08 But I've heard that a lot of people like kind of our age, have been getting back into these things. So it must be, must be interesting to play against these people with that new perspective and that level of knowledge and experience that you've gained. The thought process and all that. Got to be pretty cool, bet you can get some, like, if you were to play if you had some buddies that like are in the area, and they have like a deck of cards it would probably be pretty cool to have like a dude night a dude Magic the Gathering — a person, a friend night I guess — I don't want to be gender bias or whatever. Dan Kanivas 55:42 For for better, for worse, and this is actually a big topic of discussion within the community. Not just Magic, but gaming generally. Right? And gaming is gigantic, it's exploded. And my wife works for a gaming company, like it's everywhere. Brian Schoenborn 55:55 Oh cool. Yeah. Dan Kanivas 55:56 And so yeah, gaming is, unfortunately, very biased towards males. And as a result, oftentimes, there are people in the community slash the companies and the, you know, the policies that inadvertently get set up, I don't think it's intentional, at least from a company standpoint, are exclusive unfortunately, right? And they're not not always integrative and not always inclusive. Brian Schoenborn 56:27 Right. Dan Kanivas 56:27 And so there's actually to Magic's credit, they really do try to be inclusive, you see it in the artwork, you see it in their messaging, you see it in how they treat people who are not inclusive. Which is great. Brian Schoenborn 56:44 I think that's fantastic, you know, because like I tripped up and said, “Oh, dude, you know, it's a dude thing”, but it's finally not, and it shouldn't be you know? It's games you're having fun, it's strategy. Like, you're using you're using your mind, you have little bit of a social environment. Like that's not. Dan Kanivas 56:59 Yeah, I don't I don't picked up at all, I think this is a real issue. And it's something that the community has to figure out. If you if you go have a boardgame night with friends, which like you said, it's kind of you're seeing a resurgence of people around our age doing this. I think there's several reasons for it. One, it's if people have families, it's a pretty low-key way to get together and… Brian Schoenborn 57:22 You're not going crazy. Dan Kanivas 57:23 Exactly. Brian Schoenborn 57:24 You're not getting super wasted playing Magic the Gathering, maybe a casual beer. Dan Kanivas 57:27 We're not going to Coachella because we have kids. Right? Brian Schoenborn 57:29 Exactly. Dan Kanivas 57:30 Exactly. Right. So you know that that's a great way to get together and like I just played actually last weekend. Settlers of Catan with I have friends around here. While we're out in Walla Walla, you know, on a wine country trip. It was great. It was one of the highlights of the trip. It's always fun playing with them. And so, you know, it's a very enjoyable, easy to get into, and social thing to do. I think this is

Dan Kanivas is a true Renaissance man. As an Army Airborne Ranger, he spent time as an artillery officer near the DMZ on the Korean peninsula and later worked closely with Iraqi officers during the Iraq War, where he trained a 130-soldier Iraqi Army unit while serving as a strategic advisor to senior Iraqi Army officers. He has since shifted his sights toward both public investing and angel investing with Triple Summit Advisors, all while prepping to summit Mount Rainier.

Dan Kanivas is a true Renaissance man. As an Army Airborne Ranger, he spent time as an artillery officer near the DMZ on the Korean peninsula and later worked closely with Iraqi officers during the Iraq War, where he trained a 130-soldier Iraqi Army unit while serving as a strategic advisor to senior Iraqi Army officers. He has since shifted his sights toward both public investing and angel investing with Triple Summit Advisors, all while prepping to summit Mount Rainier.

Dr. Joseph Trachtman sits at the cross between optometry and experimental psychology. He has over 40 years’ experience in the area of elite performance through visual training, having worked with the likes of NASA, the US Olympic Shooting Team, the Pittsburgh Pirates, the New England Patriots, the Boston Bruins, and jet fighter pilots, as well as those with autism, PTSD, and TBI. As President of the Elite Performance and Learning Center, he has pioneered elite performance and has developed zone-inducing technology, including the Zone-Trac AR.

Chileen DuRaine-Duncan is a co-founder and partner of Broken Donkey Studios, a Veteran-owned boutique creative firm specializing in environmental graphics and signage. She helps organizations establish atmosphere built from their core values, and design great spaces based on what’s important; the foundation of a healthy culture.​ Clients include Netflix, Microsoft, and the Sacramento Kings. In her previous life, she was a Navy corpsman attached to Marine One — the helicopter unit responsible for transporting the President of the United States. We talk about her time and stories with Marine One, including her Yankee White clearance and a trip to El Salvador, as well as her thoughts around the importance of corporate culture as it relates to interior design, sprinkled with tangents about movies, politics, conservation, and more.