Podcast appearances and mentions of mike they

ROUNDING UP: SEASON 3 | EPISODE 8 As a field, mathematics education has come a long way over the past few years in describing the ways students come to understand number, quantity, place value, and even fractions. But when it comes to geometry, particularly concepts involving shape, it's often less clear how student thinking develops. Today, we're talking with Dr. Rebecca Ambrose about ways we can help our students build a meaningful understanding of geometry. BIOGRAPHIES Rebecca Ambrose researches how children solve mathematics problems and works with teachers to apply what she has learned about the informal strategies children employ to differentiate and improve instruction in math. She is currently a professor at the University of California, Davis in the School of Education. RESOURCES Geometry Resources Curated by Dr. Ambrose Seeing What Others Cannot See Opening the Mind's Eye  TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: As a field, mathematics education has come a long way over the past few years in describing the ways that students come to understand number, place value, and even fractions. But when it comes to geometry, especially concepts involving shape, it's often less clear how student thinking develops. Today, we're talking with Dr. Rebecca Ambrose about ways we can help our students build a meaningful understanding of geometry.  Well, welcome to the podcast, Rebecca. Thank you so much for joining us today. Rebecca Ambrose: It's nice to be here. I appreciate the invitation. Mike: So, I'd like to start by asking: What led you to focus your work on the ways that students build a meaningful understanding of geometry, particularly shape? Rebecca: So, I taught middle school math for 10 years. And the first seven years were in coed classrooms. And I was always struck by especially the girls who were actually very successful in math, but they would tell me, “I like you, Ms. Ambrose, but I don't like math. I'm not going to continue to pursue it.” And I found that troubling, and I also found it troubling that they were not as involved in class discussion. And I went for three years and taught at an all-girls school so I could see what difference it made. And we did have more student voice in those classrooms, but I still had some very successful students who told me the same thing. So, I was really concerned that we were doing something wrong and that led me to graduate school with a focus on gender issues in math education. And I had the blessing of studying with Elizabeth Fennema, who was really the pioneer in studying gender issues in math education. And as I started studying with her, I learned that the one area that females tended to underperform males on aptitude tests—not achievement tests, but aptitude tests—was in the area of spatial reasoning. And you'll remember those are the tests, or items that you may have had where you have one view of a shape and then you have a choice of four other views, and you have to choose the one that is the same shape from a different view. And those particular tasks we see consistent gender differences on. I became convinced it was because we didn't give kids enough opportunity to engage in that kind of activity at school. You either had some strengths there or not, and because of the play activity of boys, that may be why some of them are more successful at that than others.  And then the other thing that informed that was when I was teaching middle school, and I did do a few spatial activities, kids would emerge with talents that I was unaware of. So, I remember in particular this [student,] Stacy, who was an eighth-grader who was kind of a good worker and was able to learn along with the rest of the class, but she didn't stand out as particularly interested or gifted in mathematics. And yet, when we started doing these spatial tasks, and I pulled out my spatial puzzles, she was all over it. And she was doing things much more quickly than I could. And I said, “Stacy, wow.” She said, “Oh, I love this stuff, and I do it at home.” And she wasn't the kind of kid to ever draw attention to herself, but when I saw, “Oh, this is a side of Stacy that I didn't know about, and it is very pertinent to mathematics. And she needs to know what doorways could be open to her that would employ these skills that she has and also to help her shine in front of her classmates.” So, that made me really curious about what we could do to provide kids with more opportunities like that little piece that I gave her and her classmates back in the day. So, that's what led me to look at geometry thinking. And the more that I have had my opportunities to dabble with teachers and kids, people have a real appetite for it. There are always a couple of people who go, “Ooh.” But many more who are just so eager to do something in addition to number that we can call mathematics. Mike: You know, I'm thinking about our conversation before we set up and started to record the formal podcast today. And during that conversation you asked me a question that involved kites, and I'm wondering if you might ask that question again for our listeners. Rebecca: I'm going to invite you to do a mental challenge. And the way you think about it might be quite revealing to how you engage in both geometric and spatial reasoning. So, I invite you to picture in your mind's eye a kite and then to describe to me what you're seeing. Mike: So, I see two equilateral triangles that are joined at their bases—although as I say the word “bases,” I realize that could also lead to some follow-up questions. And then I see one wooden line that bisects those two triangles from top to bottom and another wooden line that bisects them along what I would call their bases. Rebecca: OK, I'm trying to imagine with you. So, you have two equilateral triangles that—a different way of saying it might be they share a side? Mike: They do share a side. Yes. Rebecca: OK. And then tell me again about these wooden parts. Mike: So, when I think about the kite, I imagine that there is a point at the top of the kite and a point at the bottom of the kite. And there's a wooden piece that runs from the point at the top down to the point at the bottom. And it cuts right through the middle. So, essentially, if you were thinking about the two triangles forming something that looked like a diamond, there would be a line that cut right from the top to the bottom point. Rebecca: OK. Mike: And then, likewise, there would be another wooden piece running from the point on one side to the point on the other side. So essentially, the triangles would be cut in half, but then there would also be a piece of wood that would essentially separate each triangle from the other along the two sides that they shared. Rebecca: OK. One thing that I noticed was you used a lot of mathematical ideas, and we don't always see that in children. And I hope that the listeners engaged in that activity themselves and maybe even stopped for a moment to sort of picture it before they started trying to process what you said so that they would just kind of play with this challenge of taking what you're seeing in your mind's eye and trying to articulate in words what that looks like. And that's a whole mathematical task in and of itself. And the way that you engaged in it was from a fairly high level of mathematics.  And so, one of the things that I hope that task sort of illustrates is how a.) geometry involves these images that we have. And that we are often having to develop that concept image, this way of imagining it in our visual domain, in our brain. And almost everybody has it. And some people call it “the mind's eye.” Three percent of the population apparently don't have it—but the fact that 97 percent do suggests for teachers that they can depend on almost every child being able to at least close their eyes and picture that kite. I was strategic in choosing the kite rather than asking you to picture a rectangle or a hexagon or something like that because the kite is a mathematical idea that some mathematicians talk about, but it's also this real-world thing that we have some experiences with.  And so, one of the things that that particular exercise does is highlight how we have these prototypes, these single images that we associate with particular words. And that's our starting point for instruction with children, for helping them to build up their mathematical ideas about these shapes. Having a mental image and then describing the mental image is where we put language to these math ideas. And the prototypes can be very helpful, but sometimes, especially for young children, when they believe that a triangle is an equilateral triangle that's sitting on, you know, the horizontal—one side is basically its base, the word that you used—they've got that mental picture. But that is not associated with any other triangles. So, if something looks more or less like that prototype, they'll say, “Yeah, that's a triangle.” But when we start showing them some things that are very different from that, but that mathematicians would call triangles, they're not always successful at recognizing those as triangles. And then if we also show them something that has curved sides or a jagged side but has that nice 60-degree angle on the top, they'll say, “Oh yeah, that's close enough to my prototype that we'll call that a triangle.”  So, part of what we are doing when we are engaging kids in these conversations is helping them to attend to the precision that mathematicians always use. And that's one of our standards. And as I've done more work with talking to kids about these geometric shapes, I realize it's about helping them to be very clear about when they are referring to something, what it is they're referring to. So, I listen very carefully to, “Are they saying ‘this' and ‘that' and pointing to something?” That communicates their idea, but it would be more precise as like, I have to ask you to repeat what you were telling me so that I knew exactly what you were talking about. And in this domain, where we don't have access to a picture to point to, we have to be more precise. And that's part of this geometric learning that we're trying to advance. Mike: So, this is bringing a lot of questions for me. The first one that I want to unpack is, you talked about the idea that when we're accessing the mind's eye, there's potentially a prototype of a shape that we see in our mind's eye. Tell me more about what you mean when you say “a prototype.” Rebecca: The way that that word is used more generally, as often when people are designing something, they build a prototype. So, it's sort of the iconic image that goes with a particular idea. Mike: You're making me think about when I was teaching kindergarten and first grade, we had colored pattern blocks that we use quite often. And often when we talked about triangles, what the students would describe or what I believed was the prototype in their mind's eye really matched up with that. So, they saw the green equilateral triangle. And when we said trapezoid, it looked like the red trapezoid, right? And so, what you're making me think about is the extent to which having a prototype is useful, but if you only have one prototype, it might also be limiting. Rebecca: Exactly. And when we're talking to a 3- or a 4-year-old, and we're pointing to something and saying, “That's a triangle,” they don't know what aspect of it makes it a triangle. So, does it have to be green? Does it have to be that particular size? So, we'll both understand each other when we're talking about that pattern block. But when we're looking at something that's much different, they may not know what aspect of it is making me call it a triangle” And they may experience a lot of dissonance if I'm telling them that—I'm trying to think of a non-equilateral triangle that we might all, “Oh, well, let's”—and I'm thinking of 3-D shapes, like an ice cream cone. Well, that's got a triangular-ish shape, but it's not a triangle. But if we can imagine that sort of is isosceles triangle with two long sides and a shorter side, if I start calling that a triangle or if I show a child that kind of isosceles triangle and I say, “Oh, what's that?” And they say, “I don't know.” So, we have to help them come to terms with that dissonance that's going to come from me calling something a triangle that they're not familiar with calling a triangle. And sadly, that moment of dissonance from which Piaget tells us learning occurs, doesn't happen enough in the elementary school classroom. Kids are often given equilateral triangles or maybe a right triangle. But they're not often seeing that unusual triangle that I described. So, they're not bumping into that dissonance that'll help them to work through, “Well, what makes something a triangle? What counts and what doesn't count?” And that's where the geometry part comes in that goes beyond just spatial visualization and using your mind's eye, but actually applying these properties and figuring out when do they apply and when do they not apply. Mike: I think this is probably a good place to shift and ask you: What do we know as a field about how students' ideas about shape initially emerge and how they mature over time? Rebecca: Well, that's an interesting question because we have our theory about how they would develop under the excellent teaching conditions, and we haven't had very many opportunities to confirm that theory because geometry is so overlooked in the elementary school classroom. So, I'm going to theorize about how they develop based on my own experience and my reading of the literature on very specific examples of trying to teach kids about squares and rectangles. Or, in my case, trying to see how they describe three-dimensional shapes that they may have built from polydrons. So, their thinking tends to start at a very visual level. And like in the kite example, they might say, “It looks like a diamond”—and you actually said that at one point—but not go farther from there.  So, you decomposed your kite, and you decomposed it a lot. You said it has two equilateral triangles and then it has those—mathematicians would call [them] diagonals. So, you were skipping several levels in doing that. So, I'll give you the intermediate levels using that kite example. So, one thing a child might say is that “I'm seeing two short sides and two long sides.” So, in that case, they're starting to decompose the kite into component parts. And as we help them to learn about those component parts, they might say, “Oh, it's got a couple of different angles.” And again, that's a different thing to pay attention to. That's a component part that would be the beginning of them doing what Battista called spatial structuring. Michael Battista built on the van Hiele levels to try to capture this theory about how kids' thinking might develop. So, attention to component parts is the first place that we see them making some advances.  And then the next is if they're able to talk about relationships between those component parts. So, in the case of the kite, they might say, “Oh, the two short sides are equal to each other”—so, there's a relationship there—“and they're connected to each other at the top.” And I think you said something about that. “And then the long sides are also connected to each other.” And that's looking at how the sides are related to the other sides is where the component parts start getting to become a new part. So, it's like decomposing and recomposing, which is part of all of mathematics.  And then the last stage is when they're able to put the shapes themselves into the hierarchy that we have. So, for example, in the kite case, they might say, “It's got four sides, so it's a quadrilateral. But it's not a parallelogram because none of the four sides are parallel to each other.” So now I'm not just looking at component parts and their relations, but I'm using those relations to think about the definition of that shape. So, I would never expect a kid to be able to tell me, “Oh yeah, a kite is a quadrilateral that is not a parallelogram,” and then tell me about the angles and tell me about the sides without a lot of experience describing shapes. Mike: There are a few things that are popping out for me when I'm listening to you talk about this. One of them is the real importance of language and attempting to use language to build a meaningful description or to make sense of shape. The other piece that it really makes me think about is the prototypes, as you described them, are a useful starting place. They're something to build on.  But there's real importance in showing a wide variety of shapes or even “almost-shapes.” I can imagine a triangle that is a triangle in every respect except for the fact that it's not a closed shape. Maybe there's an opening or a triangle that has wavy sides that are connected at three points. Or an obtuse triangle. Being able to see multiple examples and nonexamples feels like a really important part of helping kids actually find the language but also get to the essence of, “What is a triangle?” Tell me if I'm on point or off base when I'm thinking about that, Rebecca. Rebecca: You are right on target. And in fact, Clements and Sarama wrote a piece in the NCTM Teaching Children Mathematics in about 2000 where they describe their study that found exactly what you said. And they make a recommendation that kids do have opportunities to see all kinds of examples. And one way that that can happen is if they're using dynamic geometry software. So, for example, Polypad, I was just playing with it, and you can create a three-sided figure and then drag around one of the points and see all these different triangles. And the class could have a discussion about, “Are all of these triangles? Well, that looks like a weird triangle. I've never seen that before.” And today I was just playing around with the idea of having kids create a favorite triangle in Polypad and then make copies of it and compose new shapes out of their favorite triangle. What I like about that task, and I think can be a design principle for a teacher who wants to play around with these ideas and get creative with them, is to give kids opportunities to use their creativity in making new kinds of shapes and having a sense of ownership over those creations. And then using those creations as a topic of conversation for other kids. So, they have to treat their classmates as contributors to their mathematics learning, and they're all getting an opportunity to have kind of an aesthetic experience. I think that's the beauty of geometry. It's using a different part of our brain. Thomas West talks about Seeing What Others Cannot See, and he describes people like Einstein and others who really solved problems visually. They didn't use numbers. They used pictures. And Ian Robertson talks about Opening the Mind's Eye. So, his work is more focused on how we all could benefit from being able to visualize things. And actually, our fallback might be to engage our mind's eye instead of always wanting to talk [chuckles] about things.  That brings us back to this language idea. And I think language is very important. But maybe we need to stretch it to communication. I want to engage kids in sharing with me what they notice and what they see, but it may be embodied as much as it is verbal. So, we might use our arms and our elbow to discuss angle. And well, we'll put words to it. We're also then experiencing it in our body and showing it to each other in a different way than [...] just the words and the pictures on the paper. So, people are just beginning to explore this idea of gesture. But I have seen, I worked with a teacher who was working with first graders and they were—you say, “Show us a right angle,” and they would show it to us on their body. Mike: Wow. I mean, this is so far from the way that I initially understood my job when I was teaching geometry, which was: I was going to teach the definition, and kids were going to remember that definition and look at the prototypical shape and say, “That's a triangle” or “That's a square.” Even this last bit that you were talking about really flips that whole idea on its head, right? It makes me think that teaching the definitions before kids engage with shapes is actually having it backwards. How would you think about the way that kids come to make meaning about what defines any given shape? If you were to imagine a process for a teacher helping to build a sense of triangle-ness, talk about that if you wouldn't mind. Rebecca: Well, so I'm going to draw on a 3-D example for this, and it's actually something that I worked with a teacher in a third grade classroom, and we had a lot of English language learners in this classroom. And we had been building polyhedra, which are just three-dimensional shapes using a tool called the polydrons. And our first activities, the kids had just made their own polyhedra and described them. So, we didn't tell them what a prism was. We didn't tell them what a pyramid was or a cube. Another shape they tend to build with those tools is something called an anti-prism, but we didn't introduce any of those terms to them. They were familiar with the terms triangle and square, and those are within the collection of tools they have to work with. But it was interesting to me that their experience with those words was so limited that they often confused those two. And I attributed it to all they'd had was maybe a few lessons every year where they were asked to identify, “Which of these are triangles?” They had never even spoken that word themselves. So, that's to have this classroom where you are hearing from the kids and getting them to communicate with each other and the teacher as much as possible. I think that's part of our mantra for everything. But we took what they built. So, they had all built something, and it was a polyhedra. That was the thing we described. We said it has to be closed. So, we did provide them with that definition. You have to build a closed figure with these shapes, and it needs to be three-dimensional. It can't be flat. So, then we had this collection of shapes, and in this case, I was the arbiter. And I started with, “Oh wow, this is really cool. It's a pyramid.” And I just picked an example of a pyramid, and it was the triangular pyramid, made out of four equilateral triangles. And then I pulled another shape that they had built that was obviously not any—I think it was a cube. And I said, “Well, what do you think? Is this a pyramid?” And they'd said, “No, that's not a pyramid.” “OK, why isn't it?” And by the way, they did know something about pyramids. They'd heard the word before. And every time I do this with a class where I say, “OK, tell me, ‘What's a pyramid?'” They'll tell me that it's from Egypt. It's really big. So, they're drawing on the Egyptian pyramids that they're familiar with. Some of them might say a little something mathematical, but usually it's more about the pyramids they've seen maybe in movies or in school.  So, they're drawing on that concept image, right? But they don't have any kind of mathematical definition. They don't know the component parts of a pyramid. So, after we say that the cube is not a pyramid, and I say, “Well, why isn't it?,” they'll say, “because it doesn't have a pointy top.” So, we can see there that they're still drawing on the concept image that they have, which is valid and helpful in this case, but it's not real defined. So, we have attention to a component part. That's the first step we hope that they'll make. And we're still going to talk about which of these shapes are pyramids. So, we continued to bring in shapes, and they ended up with, it needed to have triangular sides. Because we had some things that had pointy tops, but it wasn't where triangles met. It would be an edge where there were two sloped sides that were meeting there. Let's see. If you can imagine, while I engage your mind's eye again, a prism, basically a triangular prism with two equilateral triangles on each end, and then rectangles that attach those two triangles. Mike: I can see that. Rebecca: OK. So, usually you see that sitting on a triangle, and we call the triangles the base. But if you tilt it so it's sitting on a rectangle, now you've got something that looks like a tent. And the kids will say that. “That looks like a tent.” “OK, yeah, that looks like a tent.” And so, that's giving us that Level 1 thinking: “What does it look like?” “What's the word that comes to mind?” And—but we've got those sloped sides, and so when they see that, some of them will call that the pointy top because we haven't defined pointy top. Mike: Yes. Rebecca: But when I give them the feedback, “Oh, you know what, that's not a pyramid.” Then the class started talking about, “Hmm, OK. What's different about that top versus this other top?” And so, then they came to, “Well, it has to be where triangles meet.” I could have introduced the word vertex at that time. I could have said, “Well, we call any place where sides meet a vertex.” That might be [a] helpful word for us today. But that's where the word comes from what they're doing, rather than me just arbitrarily saying, “Today I'm going to teach you about vertices. You need to know about vertices.” But we need a word for this place where the sides meet. So, I can introduce that word, and we can be more precise now in what we're talking about. So, the tent thing didn't have a vertex on top. It had an edge on top. So now we could be precise about that. Mike: I want to go back, and I'm going to restate the thing that you said for people who are listening, because to me, it was huge. This whole idea of “the word comes from the things that they are doing or that they are saying.” Did I get that right? Rebecca: Yeah, that the precise terminology grows out of the conversation you're having and helps people to be clear about what they're referring to. Because even if they're just pointing at it, that's helpful. And especially for students whose first language might not be English, then they at least have a reference. That's why it's so hard for me to be doing geometry with you just verbally. I don't even have a picture or a thing to refer to. But then when I say “vertex” and we're pointing to this thing, I have to try as much as I can to help them distinguish between, “This one is a vertex. This one is not a vertex.” Mike: You brought up earlier supporting multilingual learners, particularly given the way that you just modeled what was a really rich back-and-forth conversation where children were making comparisons. They were using language that was very informal, and then the things that they were saying and doing led to introducing some of those more precise pieces of language. How does that look when you have a group of students who might have a diverse set of languages that they're speaking in the same classroom? Rebecca: Well, when we do this in that environment, which is most of the time when I'm doing this, we do a lot of pair-share. And I like to let kids talk to the people that they communicate best with so that if you have two Spanish speakers, for example, they could speak in Spanish to each other. And ideally the classroom norms have been established so that that's OK. But that opportunity to hear it again from a peer helps them to process. And it slows things down. Like, often we're just going so fast that people get lost. And it may be a language thing; it may be a concept thing. So, whatever we can do to slow things down and let kids hear it repeatedly—because we know that that repeated input is very helpful—and from various different people. So, what I'll often do, if I want everybody to have an opportunity to hear about the vertex, I'm going to invite the kids to retell what they understood from what I said. And then that gives me an opportunity to assess those individuals who are doing the retell and also gives the other students a chance to hear it again. It's OK for them to see or hear the kind of textbook explanation for vertex in their preferred language. But again, only when the class has been kind of grappling with the idea, it's not the starting point. It emerges as needed in that heat of instruction. And you don't expect them to necessarily get it the first time around. That's why these building tasks or construction tasks can be done at different levels. So, we were talking about the different levels the learner might be at. Everybody can imagine a kite, and everybody could draw a kite. So, I'm sort of differentiating my instruction by giving this very open-ended task, and then I'm trying to tune into what am I seeing and hearing from the different individuals that can give me some insight into their geometrical reasoning at this point in time. But we're going to keep drawing things, and we're going to keep building things, and everybody's going to have their opportunity to advance. But it's not in unison. Mike: A few things jumped out. One, as you were describing the experiences that you can give to students, particularly students who might have a diversity of languages in the same classroom, it strikes me that this is where nonverbal communication like gesturing or using a visual or using a physical model really comes in handy.  I think the other piece that I was reminded of as I was listening to you is, we have made some progress in suggesting that it's really important to listen to kids' mathematical thinking. And I often think that that's taken root, particularly as kids are doing things like adding or subtracting. And I think what you're reminding [me] is, that holds true when it comes to thinking about geometry or shape; that it's in listening to what kids are saying, that they're helping us understand, “What's next?” “Where do we introduce language?” “How can we have kids speaking to one another in a way that builds a set of ideas?”  I think the big takeaway for me is that sometimes geometry has kind of been treated like this separate entity in the world of elementary mathematics. And yet some of the principles that we find really important in things like number or operation, they still hold true. Rebecca: Definitely, definitely. And again, as I said, when you are interested in getting to know your children, seeing who's got some gifts in this domain will allow you to uplift kids who might otherwise not have those opportunities to shine. Mike: I think that's a great place to stop. Rebecca, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Rebecca: This has really been fun. And I do want to mention one thing: that I have developed a list of various articles and resources. Most of them come from NCTM, and I can make that available to you so that people who are interested in learning more can get some more resources. Mike: That's fantastic. We'll link those to our show notes. Thank you again very much for helping us make sense of this really important set of concepts. Rebecca: You're welcome. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2024 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Join us for this Blades crew creation as we prepare for a fresh heist in the darkness of Duskvol.  Our Old Ways Blades Crew: John, Jake, Lonnie, Mere, Mike  They are The Press Gang. 

The Nightly Rant: Examining Society from a Sarcastic Point of ViewWelcome to The Nightly Rant with your hosts, Mike and Torya. In this show, we take a sarcastic look at society and dive into various topics that provoke thought and conversation. Today, we want to discuss the importance of being prepared to answer questions and engage in meaningful dialogue when expressing opinions publicly. We believe that adults should act like adults and handle disagreements in a mature manner. Let's dive into the details.The Importance of Being Prepared to Answer QuestionsMike: "People in general should not ask questions unless they're prepared to hear any answer."Torya: "I'll take what you just said a step further to also include stating your opinion publicly."Mike: "If you state your opinion publicly on something, then you need to be prepared to answer questions. Some people are going to be confused. You put your opinion out there that that is influential. It means something. I don't care who you are. Be prepared to answer questions. That's all."Torya: "Influences at least one other person in the universe."Mike: "Be prepared to answer questions. That's all I ask. Is that bad?"Torya: "Well, why are you asking the questions? What is your goal with asking people questions about their opinion?"Mike: "To understand their viewpoint on that issue."Torya: "Because to tell them how wrong they are, that they're dumb or that their opinion is factually incorrect. No."Mike: "In fact, usually these days especially, I will say your opinion is completely valid, but it isn't one that I completely connect with because I don't understand this aspect."Torya: "Can you explain?"Mike: "And I blah out whatever the question is and then they attempt to answer. And most times they don't even attempt to answer because they don't care. They just growl back at you and it's like, no, I was truly trying to understand where you were coming from."Torya: "Well, then if your intention is to just understand, then no, right, you're not doing it."Mike: "Exactly. There's nothing wrong. Then if your intention is to drag them into a trap and then pounce on them and beat them to death, yeah, that'd be pretty wrong."Torya: "Or at least mean and nasty. Sure."Mike: "Which is wrong sometimes."Torya: "It's fun."Mike: "Well, it can be. I won't lie. It can be."Torya: "Especially when somebody has a really obscure and ridiculous and factually incorrect opinion. But I digress. We don't need to go there."Mike: "Well, yeah, and why can't somebody disagree about that and not make it be such a big deal? I mean, come on, there's a specific incident in my head. And the minuteness of the topic, if you think about it, it was like less than a grain of sand in the grand scheme of everything. Right?"Torya: "We've had disagreements about things way bigger than that and laughing together about something else five minutes later."Mike: "Nothing. That's like nothing. That's what I'm trying to say. It's like fart dust is a bigger deal than that."Torya: "Fart dust pretty bad."Mike: "And yet people who are allegedly adults make it about them and, oh, we need to quit the friendship. And that's literally what people do these days. Grown ass adults. Yeah, grown ass adults just leave and don't talk to you anymore. They don't have even the balls to say I'm going to say it. They don't even have the balls to say, fuck you."Torya: "Wow."Mike: "They don't have the balls to say anything. Yes, I'm the reason never for the E. It's always all me now."Torya: "I feel like all the words are fair game, though."Mike: "But here's the thing. It's like they don't even have the guts to say goodbye. Like, I'm done. That's a woosy move. I mean, those are the kind of people that disappear from their family, too. No BS."Torya: "I had a great idea earlier, and I was thinking that it'd be great if society would just chew up these cocksucking assholes that you're describing. The people who don't function as part of society because they're just too fucking wrapped up in their own self."Mike: "Yeah, they're not adults."Torya: "Chew them up and shit them out into outer space using the Earth's giant rectum. Yeah, the Earth is going to grow a giant rectum and it needs to shit these people out because they're destroying."Mike: "The world in many senses of the word. Yes, they are."Torya: "They're the most hostile people yet. They're the people who will call everybody else hostile."Mike: "Well, and that's the thing. There's also this issue where adults can't be adults, they just can't. Like we're talking about ghosting. That's not an adult move ghosting people. That's a little baby's move ghosting."Torya: "Right?"Mike: "Oh, where's your friend Johnny? Oh, I don't talk to him anymore. It's what the little kid does. It's not what an adult does."Torya: "Right? And then there's poor Johnny crying in the corner because he doesn't know why nobody likes him. And also, Johnny will continue to be an asshole for the rest of Johnny's life because nobody has ever told him why they don't like him."Mike: "Which in my opinion, makes you the asshole for not pointing it out to."Torya: "Right?"Mike: "I mean, if you pointed it out to him and he continued down the pathway, you pointed it out to him, and he gets to continue down the pathway if he wants to."Torya: "You've got to tell people how you feel about things. You know, it's interesting. When I was in Canada, not this most recent time, but the time before, I was hanging out with Alicia, you know, how she has miniature humans. Well, the boy miniature human punched the girl miniature human. And she came screaming and crying to know kid stuff. And Alicia told her that she needed to go tell miniature boy human how it made her feel so that he would apologize to her."Torya: "And she did, and he apologized and then gave her a hug for a five year old. People. Yeah."Mike: "And, you know, the honest truth is there's no reason whatsoever for someone to act like everything's okay when there are obvious signals that everything's not okay. There's no reason for anyone to ever do that to anybody. That's why I think we talk about this all the time. Our relationship works because it takes you longer than me to get there, but we tell each other, well, that bothered me when that happened."Torya: "I know that I'm a little bit irrational. Okay, whatever. Don't even no commenting. Not allowed. I know that I'm a little bit irrational, and sometimes I don't know if I'm actually annoyed with you or if I'm being crazy, so I need to take some time to decipher if I am being crazy."Mike: "But see but that's fair, because that means instead of that even makes you even more reasonable, because instead of putting our relationship through a roller coaster of crap, you take the time to filter it yourself. Here's the thing, though. A lot of people would bitch at you for that, but I commend you for it because you still come forward with the issues to get them fixed. You do."Torya: "Think about it. You're doing something that's annoying the crap out of me. Okay? Not right now. This is a hypothetical you are doing something."Mike: "Well, it's a hypothetical reality. It happens."Torya: "Yeah. Anyway, I could say something right then when you're being annoying in my hyper irrational, super annoyed state sure. Which what would happen bad?"Mike: "Let's just say doom would ensue. Always."Torya: "Nobody needs that. Or I could stew quietly about it for a while and then come back to it the next day when I'm not crazy and decide if I was actually annoyed with you or not. And then if I was actually annoyed with you, I could be like, hey, Mike, you did this thing. Please don't do it again."Mike: "Yeah, you know what, though? I obviously am the same person as you, so I obviously approach that same issue the same way as you. And I, though, have one time only with you, followed the completely reasonable give her the benefit of the doubt approach. I've done it many times, but once and only once did I regret doing it. And you did something like you had a comeback of, like I can't even remember the comeback at this point, but it was really this really sassy."Mike: "You didn't deny that you were doing something and that it would have bothered me. You didn't deny that at all, but instead, you just sort of ignored it. And went like, what about this? And it's like, wow, man. That isn't how we're supposed to deal with each other. We're supposed to deal with each other face to face. We're not supposed to try to duck around one another. And that's how that felt, right?"Torya: "That's why everybody has to calm down."Mike: "Before issues should be correct. Exactly. And that's the thing. There's times when you do have to wait, and there's times when you should take time to think about things. And I think it's more adult like to wait rather than overreact. However, I'm going to say something different. One last thing. When someone does that to you, they overreact. It's best for you to quote overreact back and protect yourself. That's what I think."Torya: "Well, because then you're going to get the whole thing out of the way right there, instead of you stewing that I overreacted and making it a fight the next day and the next day and the next day. I agree with you. If one person has already gone off the deep end, well, you might as well just have the knockdown drag out fight right there. Just get it over with."Mike: "I think we agree with that. And it's healthy. That's the healthy way, and we act like adults about it. And that's the key thing, though. You have to be able to speak your mind without the other person getting offended. And honestly, I think a big thing that most adults just don't have any longer than they used to is the ability to separate things. Just because you're not the most empathetic person in the world doesn't mean you're stupid."Torya: "Yeah, that's what I was going to say before you had something else you had to say. If I didn't take the minute to calm myself or minute or hours or six days, whatever is necessary, all arguments I had with everybody would be like, my fight with the Sam's Club lady where I called them an idiot and."Mike: "They walked wasn't your that wasn't your proudest moment."Torya: "Or my slight disagreement with that soccer mom that one time that I won't repeat."Mike: "Well, what's funny about that? What's funny about that is both of those situations turned out okay in the end, but they had the potential not to be. But here's the thing. By us being reasonable people, 98.5% of the time, you can get away with a slip up like that. And the rest of the people are like, in particular the soccer incident, the rest of the parents, you were like, oh, I'm so sorry that I said that in front of you. And they're like, Are you kidding? I would have said worse to her."Mike: "She deserved what you said. And then everyone that was literally the opinion, they would be like, oh, I would have said worse. Oh, she deserved it. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Not a single person sided with the other person. Not a single person. Now, here's the thing. We still set our apologies to everybody. To everybody."Torya: "Even though the person I exactly."Mike: "Even though they supported us, we still apologized."Torya: "Well, to be fair, I used the worst word Americans can possibly use in front of, like, twelve year old children."Mike: "Well, the twelve year old children were out on the soccer field, though Mitchell."Torya: "Said he heard it."Mike: "Well, it is what it is, man. You did apologize."Torya: "That's what I felt like I needed."Mike: "But you apologized. You did. To everybody. And yet the point is, they were supportive of us because we had always been reasonable people. We didn't yell and scream on the sidelines at our kid, at the referee. We didn't do that stuff. We sat there and we cheered."Torya: "Called the referee a sight."Mike: "We talked to each other."Torya: "Only when you were egged on by other groups of people, though, too."Mike: "We would just talk to each other and ignore everyone. I mean, that's just how we handled things. And so it's sort of annoying that people go down roads that they don't even bother to think about. Well, are they the type of people that would act that way?"Torya: "So can we officially shoot these hyper aggressive snowflake motherfuckers into space?"Mike: "Yeah, with the rectum. You said this already, and I fully agree with you."Torya: "Well, I need to know if other."Mike: "People."Torya: "We're not feeding the rectum Taco Bell."Mike: "Both of those are going to make a great audio club. That's the little shorty. Munch, munch, munch kapow. And we're not feeding in Taco Bell. Just wow. All right. Well, I think we have beaten this topic to death. I didn't even expect us to talk about it for this long. Here's what I want to kind of close up with tomorrow, which is the day after we record this, which will be weeks from the time you hear it."Mike: "We are getting involved in our very first official sporting event together. We are going to play fantasy hockey with the rest of our family. Yes, we are. And we suck at this for my ultimate failure. We're going to learn this quick. So with that, that is all I've got for you people."Torya: "Good night, everyone."Mike: "Hasta La Bye bye."Conclusion and Future OutlookIn this episode of The Nightly Rant, Mike and Torya discuss the importance of being prepared to answer questions and engage in meaningful dialogue when expressing opinions publicly. They emphasize the need for adults to act like adults and handle disagreements in a mature manner. The hosts share personal anecdotes and observations to highlight the negative consequences of ghosting and avoiding confrontation.The conversation delves into the significance of open communication and the ability to separate personal opinions from personal attacks. Mike and Torya stress the importance of understanding different viewpoints and seeking clarification rather than resorting to hostility. They also touch upon the need for self-reflection and taking the time to assess one's own emotions before engaging in discussions.The hosts conclude the episode by announcing their participation in a fantasy hockey league, highlighting the importance of learning new skills and embracing new experiences. They encourage listeners to approach disagreements with maturity and respect, fostering a culture of open dialogue and understanding.Moving forward, it is crucial for individuals to recognize the impact of their words and opinions on others. By being prepared to answer questions and engage in meaningful conversations, adults can foster a more inclusive and understanding society. The Nightly Rant serves as a reminder that communication is key, and it is essential to approach disagreements with empathy and respect.TimestampSummary0:00:15Introduction to the podcast and topic of the day0:01:34Importance of being prepared to answer questions when stating opinions0:03:34Adults making small disagreements a big deal0:05:02Criticism of people who ghost others without explanation0:06:34Society's inability to handle conflicts maturely0:08:25The importance of open communication in a relationship0:09:11The need to address issues face-to-face rather than avoiding them0:10:59Reacting to overreactions to protect oneself0:11:46Having a knockdown drag out fight to resolve conflicts0:12:22Lack of empathy and offense to criticism of empathy0:12:27Torya talks about needing time to calm herself before arguments0:12:55C mentions the soccer incident and how it turned out okay0:13:48They discuss apologizing to everyone involved in the incident0:14:11C talks about how they were always reasonable people0:14:54Torya suggests shooting hyper aggressive people into space0:15:55They mention their upcoming fantasy hockey event0:16:22Closing remarks0:31:54Mike thanks listeners and asks for a rating0:32:06End of transcript

Summary:Mike and Torya discuss the recent victory of the Vegas Golden Knights in the Stanley Cup and fans' reactions from both sides. They address the complaints of Florida Panthers fans about the referees and injuries, highlighting the dominance of the Golden Knights throughout the series. The hosts also express their excitement about being in Vegas during the team's first full year and witnessing their historic win.Key Takeaways:Vegas Golden Knights dominated the series against the Florida Panthers.Panthers fans made excuses about injuries and referees, but the Golden Knights were consistently strong.The Golden Knights' success has brought the city of Vegas together and created a strong fan base.Quotes:"The Vegas Golden Knights are your 2023 Stanley Cup champions." - Mike"They decimated the crybaby Panthers." - Mike"The Knights were never out of control in this series, not once." - Mike"Vegas was one of the least penalized teams during the regular season." - Mike"The city is going crazy. There's going to be a parade." - Mike

This week in The Fearless Mindset podcast, Mark Ledlow and Mike H. return to further discuss the untold truth about the situation in Ukraine. Mike is a U.S. military veteran who is currently doing voluntary work in Ukraine doing rescue missions for Ukrainian locals who need help amidst the ongoing Russian attacks. HIGHLIGHTSMark and Mike's friendshipMike's Passion to HelpMike's First Hand Experience in UkraineThe Mission is Far From OverQUOTESMike: "Whatever it takes to help others, I'm not looking for handouts. I'm not looking for any glory, I'm doing this because I care.”Mike: "They have no idea that everything they knew before is gone, and that's  probably the thing that's bothered me the most, since I've been here is the innocent people and the children. And just being able to be here and help them means the world. It's very humbling.”Mike: "I guess what people need to understand is that, you know, with everything going on, you still have hospitals, you have elderly, you have orphanages, you have everything that's in a functioning society is being affected by the war that's going on. And that's displacing all these different functions. And these people need help.”To help Michael H. in his mission to save lives in Ukraine check out the link below:GoFundMe - https://gofund.me/aa73eae6To hear more episodes of The Fearless Mindset podcast, you can go to https://the-fearless-mindset.simplecast.com/ or listen to major podcasting platforms such as Apple, Google, Spotify, etc. You can also subscribe to the Fearless Mindset YouTube Channel to watch episodes on video.

Happy Halloween! We're joined by comics scribe Daniel "D.G." Chichester to talk about the history of horror comics, Marvel's return to the genre in the early 1990s, and the macabre anti-hero Terror (whom Chichester co-created).  ----more---- Issue 18 Transcript   Mike: [00:00:00] It's small, but feisty, Mike: Welcome to Tencent Takes, the podcast where we dig up comic book characters' graves and misappropriate the bodies, one issue at a time. My name is Mike Thompson, and I am joined by my cohost, the Titan of terror herself, Jessika Frazer. Jessika: It is I. Mike: Today, we are extremely fortunate to have comics writer, Daniel, DG Chichester. Dan: Nice to see you both. Mike: Thank you so much for taking the time. You're actually our first official guest on the podcast. Dan: Wow. Okay. I'm going to take that as a good thing. That's great. Mike: Yeah. Well, if you're new to the show, the purpose of our [00:01:00] podcast as always is to look at the weirdest, silliest, coolest moments of comic books, and talk about them in ways that are fun and informative. In this case, we looking at also the spookiest moments, and how they're woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. Today, we're going to be talking about horror comics. We're looking at their overall history as well as their resurrection at Marvel in the early 1990s, and how it helped give birth to one of my favorite comic characters, an undead anti-hero who went by the name of Terror. Dan, before we started going down this road, could you tell us a little bit about your history in the comic book industry, and also where people can find you if they want to learn more about you and your work? Dan: Absolutely. At this point, people may not even know I had a history in comic books, but that's not true. Uh, I began at Marvel as an assistant in the mid-eighties while I was still going to film school and, semi quickly kind of graduated up, to a more official, [00:02:00] assistant editor position. Worked my way up through editorial, and then, segued into freelance writing primarily for, but also for DC and Dark Horse and worked on a lot of, semi-permanent titles, Daredevil's probably the best known of them. But I think I was right in the thick of a lot of what you're going to be talking about today in terms of horror comics, especially at Marvel, where I was fiercely interested in kind of getting that going. And I think pushed for certain things, and certainly pushed to be involved in those such as the Hellraiser and Nightbreed Clive Barker projects and Night Stalkers and, uh, and Terror Incorporated, which we're going to talk about. And wherever else I could get some spooky stuff going. And I continued on in that, heavily until about 96 / 97, when the big crash kind of happened, continued on through about 99 and then have not really been that actively involved since then. But folks can find out what I'm doing now, if they go to story maze.substack.com, where I have a weekly newsletter, which features [00:03:00] new fiction and some things that I think are pretty cool that are going on in storytelling, and also a bit of a retrospective of looking back at a lot of the work that I did. Mike: Awesome. Before we actually get started talking about horror comics, normally we talk about one cool thing that we have read or watched recently, but because this episode is going to be dropping right before Halloween, what is your favorite Halloween movie or comic book? Dan: I mean, movies are just terrific. And there's so many when I saw that question, especially in terms of horror and a lot of things immediately jumped to mind. The movie It Follows, the recent It movie, The Mist, Reanimator, are all big favorites. I like horror movies that really kind of get under your skin and horrify you, not just rack up a body count. But what I finally settled on as a favorite is probably John Carpenter's the Thing, which I just think is one of the gruesomest what is going to happen next? What the fuck is going to happen next?[00:04:00] And just utter dread. I mean, there's just so many things that combined for me on that one. And I think in terms of comics, I've recently become just a huge fan of, and I'm probably going to slaughter the name, but Junji Ito's work, the Japanese manga artist. And, Uzumaki, which is this manga, which is about just the bizarreness of this town, overwhelmed with spirals of all things. And if you have not read that, it is, it is the trippiest most unsettling thing I've read in, in a great long time. So happy Halloween with that one. Mike: So that would be mango, right? Dan: Yeah. Yeah. So you'd make sure you read it in the right order, or otherwise it's very confusing, so. Mike: Yeah, we actually, haven't talked a lot about manga on this. We probably should do a deep dive on it at some point. But, Jessika, how about you? Jessika: Well, I'm going to bring it down a little bit more silly because I've always been a fan of horror and the macabre and supernatural. So always grew up seeking creepy media as [00:05:00] a rule, but I also loves me some silliness. So the last three or so years, I've had a tradition of watching Hocus Pocus with my friend, Rob around Halloween time. And it's silly and it's not very heavy on the actual horror aspect, but it's fun. And it holds up surprisingly well. Mike: Yeah, we have all the Funkos of the Sanderson sisters in our house. Jessika: It's amazing watching it in HD, their costumes are so intricate and that really doesn't come across on, you know, old VHS or watching it on television back in the day. And it's just, it's so fun. How much, just time and effort it looks like they put into it, even though some of those details really weren't going to translate. Dan: How very cool. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Yeah. So, but I also really like actual horror, so I'm also in the next couple of days is going to be a visiting the 1963 Haunting of Hill House because that's one of my favorites. Yeah. It's so good. And used to own the book that the movie was based on also. And seen all the [00:06:00] iterations and it's the same storyline the recent Haunting of Hill house is based on, which is great. That plot line has been reworked so many times, but it's such a great story, I'm just not shocked in the least that it would run through so many iterations and still be accepted by the public in each of its forms. Mike: Yeah. I really liked that Netflix interpretation of it, it was really good. Dan: They really creeped everything out. Mike: Yeah. There's a YouTuber called Lady Night, The Brave, and she does a really great summary breakdown explaining a lot of the themes and it's like almost two hours I think, of YouTube video, but she does these really lovely retrospectives. So, highly recommend you check that out. If you want to just think about that the Haunting of Hill House more. Jessika: Oh, I do. Yes. Mike: I'm going to split the difference between you two. When I was growing up, I was this very timid kid and the idea of horror just creeped me out. And so I avoided it like the plague. And then when I was in high [00:07:00] school, I had some friends show me some movies and I was like, these are great, why was I afraid of this stuff? And so I kind of dove all the way in. But my preferred genre is horror comedy. That is the one that you can always get me in on. And, I really love this movie from the mid-nineties called the Frighteners, which is a horror comedy starring Michael J. Fox, and it's directed by Peter Jackson. And it was written by Peter Jackson and his partner, Fran Walsh. And it was a few years before they, you know, went on to make a couple of movies based on this little known franchise called Lord of the Rings. But it's really wild. It's weird, and it's funny, and it has some genuine jump scare moments. And there's this really great ghost story at the core of it. And the special effects at the time were considered amazing and groundbreaking, but now they're kind of, you look at, and you're like, oh, that's, high-end CG, high-end in the mid-nineties. Okay. But [00:08:00] yeah, like I said, or comedies are my absolute favorite things to watch. That's why Cabin in the Woods always shows up in our horror rotation as well. Same with Tucker and Dale vs Evil. That's my bread and butter. With comic books, I go a little bit creepier. I think I talked about the Nice House on the Lake, that's the current series that I'm reading from DC that's genuinely creepy and really thoughtful and fun. And it's by James Tynion who also wrote Something That's Killing the Children. So those are excellent things to read if you're in the mood for a good horror comic. Dan: Great choice on the Frighteners. That's I think an unsung classic, that I'm going to think probably came out 10 years too early. Mike: Yeah. Dan: It's such a mashup of different, weird vibes, that it would probably do really, really well today. But at that point in time, it was just, what is this? You know? Cause it's, it's just cause the horrifying thing in it are really horrifying. And, uh, Gary Busey's son, right, plays the evil ghost and he is just trippy, off the wall, you know, horrifying. [00:09:00] Mike: Yeah. And it starts so silly, and then it kind of just continues to go creepier and creepier, and by the time that they do some of the twists revealing his, you know, his agent in the real world, it's a genuine twist. Like, I was really surprised the first time I saw it and I - Dan: Yeah. Mike: was so creeped out, but yeah. Dan: Plus it's got R. Lee Ermey as the army ghost, which is just incredible. So, Mike: Yeah. And, Chi McBride is in it, and, Jeffrey Combs. Dan: Oh, oh that's right, right. right. Mike: Yeah. So yeah, it's a lot of fun. Mike: All right. So, I suppose we should saunter into the graveyard, as it were, and start talking about the history of horror comics. So, Dan, obviously I know that you're familiar with horror comics, Dan: A little bit. Mike: Yeah. What about you, Jess? You familiar with horror comics other than what we've talked about in the show? Jessika: I started getting into it once you and I started, you know, talking more on the [00:10:00] show. And so I grabbed a few things. I haven't looked through all of them yet, but I picked up some older ones. I did just recently pick up, it'll be more of a, kind of a funny horror one, but they did a recent Elvira and Vincent Price. So, yeah, so I picked that up, but issue one of that. So it's sitting on my counter ready for me to read right now. Mike: Well, and that's funny, cause Elvira actually has a really long, storied history in comic books. Like she first appeared in kind of like the revival of House of Mystery that DC did. And then she had an eighties series that had over a hundred issues that had a bunch of now major names involved. And she's continued to have series like, you can go to our website and get autographed copies of her recent series from, I think Dynamite. Jessika: That's cool. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Nice. Mike: Speaking of horror comedy Elvira is great. Jessika: Yes. Mike: I recently showed Sarah the Elvira Mistress of the Dark movie and she was, I think really sad that I hadn't showed it to her sooner. Jessika: [00:11:00] That's another one I need to go watch this week. Wow. Don't- nobody call me. I'm just watching movies all week. Dan: Exactly. Mike: It's on a bunch of different streaming services, I think right now. Well it turns out that horror comics, have pretty much been a part of the industry since it really became a proven medium. You know, it wasn't long after comics became a legit medium in their own, right that horror elements started showing up in superhero books, which like, I mean, it isn't too surprising. Like the 1930's was when we got the Universal classic movie monsters, so it makes a lot of sense that those kinds of characters would start crossing over into comic books, just to take advantage of that popularity. Jerry Siegel and Joel Schuster, the guys who created Superman, actually created the supernatural investigator called Dr. Occult in New Fun Comics three years before they brought Superman to life. And Dr. Occult still shows up in DC books. Like, he was a major character in the Books of Magic with Neil Gaiman. I think he may show up in Sandman later on. I can't remember. Jessika: Oh, okay. Dan: I wouldn't be surprised. Neil would find ways to mine that. [00:12:00] Mike: Yeah. I mean, that was a lot of what the Sandman was about, was taking advantage of kind of long forgotten characters that DC had had and weaving them into his narratives. And, if you're interested in that, we talk about that in our book club episodes, which we're currently going through every other episode. So the next episode after this is going to be the third episode of our book club, where we cover volumes five and six. So, horror comics though really started to pick up in the 1940s. There's multiple comic historians who say that the first ongoing horror series was Prized Comics, New Adventures of Frankenstein, which featured this updated take on the original story by Mary Shelley. It took place in America. The monster was named Frankenstein. He was immediately a terror. It's not great, but it's acknowledged as being really kind of the first ongoing horror story. And it's really not even that much of a horror story other than it featured Frankenstein's monster. But after that, a number of publishers started to put out adaptations of classic horror stories for awhile. So you had [00:13:00] Avon Publications making it official in 1946 with the comic Erie, which is based on the first real dedicated horror comic. Yeah. This is the original cover to Erie Comics. Number one, if you could paint us a word picture. Dan: Wow. This is high end stuff as it's coming through. Well it looks a lot like a Zine or something, you know it's got a very, Mac paint logo from 1990, you know, it's, it's your, your typical sort of like, ooh, I'm shaky kind of logo. That's Eerie Comics. There's a Nosferatu looking character. Who's coming down some stairs with the pale moon behind him. It, he's got a knife in his hand, so, you know, he's up to no good. And there is a femme fatale at the base of the stairs. She may have moved off of some train tracks to get here. And, uh, she's got a, uh, a low, cut dress, a lot of leg and the arms and the wrists are bound, but all this for only 10. cents. So, I think there's a, there's a bargain there.[00:14:00] Mike: That is an excellent description. Thank you. So, what's funny is that Erie at the time was the first, you know, official horror comic, really, but it only had one issue that came out and then it sort of vanished from sight. It came back with a new series that started with a new number one in the 1950s, but this was the proverbial, the shot that started the war. You know, we started seeing a ton of anthology series focusing on horror, like Adventures into the Unknown, which ran into the 1960s and then Amazing Mysteries and Marvel Tales were repurposed series for Marvel that they basically changed the name of existing series into these. And they started doing kind of macabre, weird stories. And then, we hit the 1950s. And the early part of the 1950s was when horror comics really seemed to take off and experienced this insane success. We've talked about how in the post-WWII America, superhero comics were kind of declining in [00:15:00] popularity. By the mid 1950s, only three heroes actually had their own books and that was Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. Which, I didn't realize that until I was doing research. I didn't, I just assumed that there were other superhero comics at the time. But we started seeing comics about horror and crime and romance really starting to get larger shares of the market. And then EC Comics was one of those doing gangbuster business during this whole era. Like, this was when we saw those iconic series, the Haunt of Fear, the Vault of Horror, the Crypt of Terror, which was eventually rebranded to Tales from the Crypt. Those all launched and they found major success. And then the bigger publishers were also getting in on this boom. During the first half of the 1950s Atlas, which eventually became Marvel, released almost 400 issues across 18 horror titles. And then American Comics Group released almost 125 issues between five different horror titles. Ace comics did almost a hundred issues between five titles. I'm curious. I'm gonna ask both of you, what [00:16:00] do you think the market share of horror comics was at the time? Dan: In terms of comics or in terms of just like newsstand, magazine, distribution. Mike: I'm going to say in terms of distribution. Dan: I mean, I know they were phenomenally successful. I would, be surprised if it was over 60%. Mike: Okay. How about. Jessika: Oh, goodness. Let's throw a number out. I'm going to say 65 just because I want to get close enough, but maybe bump it up just a little bit. This is a contest now. Dan: The precision now, like the 65. Jessika: Yes. Mike: Okay. Well, obviously we don't have like a hard definite number, but there was a 2009 article from reason magazine saying that horror books made up a quarter of all comics by 1953. So, so you guys were overestimating it, but it was still pretty substantial. At the same time, we were also seeing a surge in horror films. Like, the 1950s are known as the atomic age and media reflected [00:17:00] societal anxiety, at the possibility of nuclear war and to a lesser extent, white anxiety about societal changes. So this was the decade that gave us Invasion of the Body Snatchers The Thing from Another World, which led to John Carpenter's The Thing eventually. Um, and the Creature from the Black Lagoon. Hammer horror films also started to get really huge during this time. So we saw the beginning of stuff like Christopher Lee's, Dracula series of films. So the fifties were like a really good decade for horror, I feel. But at the same time, violent crime in America started to pick up around this period. And people really started focusing on juvenile criminals and what was driving them. So, there were a lot of theories about why this was going on and no one's ever really come up with a definite answer, but there was the psychiatrist named Frederick Wortham who Dan, I yeah. Dan: Oh yeah, psychiatrist in big air quotes, yeah. Mike: In quotes. Yeah. [00:18:00] Yeah. And he was convinced that the rise in crime was due to comics, and he spent years writing and speaking against them. He almost turned it into a cottage industry for himself. And this culminated in 1954, when he published a book called Seduction of the Innocent, that blamed comic books for the rise in juvenile delinquency, and his arguments are laughable. Like, I mean, there's just no way around it. Like you read this stuff and you can't help, but roll your eyes and chuckle. But, at the time comics were a relatively new medium, you know, and people really only associated them with kids. And his arguments were saying, oh, well, Wonder Woman was a lesbian because of her strength and independence, which these days, I feel like that actually has a little bit of credibility, but, like, I don't know. But I don't really feel like that's contributing to the delinquency of the youth. You know, and then he also said that Batman and Robin were in a homosexual relationship. And then my favorite was that Superman comics were [00:19:00] un-American and fascist. Dan: Well. Mike: All right. Dan: There's people who would argue that today. Mike: I mean, but yeah, and then he actually, he got attention because there were televised hearings with the Senate subcommittee on juvenile delinquency. I mean, honestly, every time I think about Seduction of the Innocent and how it led to the Comics Code Authority. I see the parallels with Tipper Gore's Parent Music Resource Center, and how they got the Parental Advisory sticker on certain music albums, or Joe Lieberman's hearings on video games in the 1990's and how that led to the Electronic Systems Reading Board system, you know, where you provide almost like movie ratings to video games. And Wortham also reminds me a lot of this guy named Jack Thompson, who was a lawyer in the nineties and aughts. And he was hell bent on proving a link between violent video games and school shootings. And he got a lot of media attention at the time until he was finally disbarred for his antics. But there was this [00:20:00] definite period where people were trying to link video games and violence. And, even though the statistics didn't back that up. And, I mean, I think about this a lot because I used to work in video games. I spent almost a decade working in the industry, but you know, it's that parallel of anytime there is a new form of media that is aimed at kids, it feels like there is a moral panic. Dan: Well, I think it goes back to what you were saying before about, you know, even as, as things change in society, you know, when people in society get at-risk, you know, you went to Invasion of the Body Snatchers, Right. Which is classically thought to be a response to communism, you know, and the feelings of communist oppression and you know, the different, you know, the other, and it's the same thing. I think every single one of these is just a proof point of if you want to become, suddenly well-known like Lieberman or Wortham or anything, you know, pick the other that the older generation doesn't really understand, right? Maybe now there are more adults playing video games, but it's probably still perceived as a more juvenile [00:21:00] thing or comics or juvenile thing, or certain types of movies are a juvenile thing, you know, pick the other pick on it, hold it up as the weaponized, you know, piece, and suddenly you're popular. And you've got a great flashpoint that other people can rally around and blame, as if one single thing is almost ever the cause of everything. And I always think it's interesting, you know, the EC Comics, you know, issues in terms of, um, Wortham's witch hunt, you know, the interesting thing about those is yet they were gruesome and they are gruesome in there, but they're also by and large, I don't know the other ones as well, but I know the EC Comics by and large are basically morality plays, you know, they're straight up morality plays in the sense that the bad guys get it in the end, almost every time, like they do something, they do some horrific thing, but then the corpse comes back to life and gets them, you know, so there's, there's always a comeuppance where the scales balance. But that was of course never going to be [00:22:00] an argument when somebody can hold up a picture of, you know, a skull, you know, lurching around, you know, chewing on the end trails of something. And then that became all that was talked about. Mike: Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, spring boarding off of that, you know, worth them and the subcommittee hearings and all that, they led to the comics magazine association of America creating the Comics Code Authority. And this was basically in order to avoid government regulation. They said, no, no, no, we'll police ourselves so that you don't have to worry about this stuff. Which, I mean, again, that's what we did with the SRB. It was a response to that. We could avoid government censorship. So the code had a ton of requirements that each book had to meet in order to receive the Comics Code Seal of Approval on the cover. And one of the things you couldn't do was have quote, scenes dealing with, or instruments associated with walking dead or torture, which I mean,[00:23:00] okay. So the latter half of the 1950's saw a lot of these dedicated horror series, you know, basically being shut down or they drastically changed. This is, you know, the major publishers really freaked out. So Marvel and DC rebranded their major horror titles. They were more focused on suspense or mystery or Sci-Fi or superheroes in a couple of cases, independent publishers, didn't really have to worry about the seal for different reasons. Like, some of them were able to rely on the rep for publishing wholesome stuff like Dell or Gold Key. I think Gold Key at the time was doing a lot of the Disney books. So they just, they were like, whatever. Dan: Right, then EC, but, but EC had to shut down the whole line and then just became mad. Right? I mean, that's that was the transition at which William, you know, Gains - Mike: Yeah. Dan: basically couldn't contest what was going on. Couldn't survive the spotlight. You know, he testified famously at that hearing. But had to give up all of [00:24:00] that work that was phenomenally profitable for them. And then had to fall back to Mad Magazine, which of course worked out pretty well. Mike: Yeah, exactly. By the end of the 1960s, though, publishers started to kind of gently push back a little bit like, Warren publishing, and Erie publications, like really, they didn't give a shit. Like Warren launched a number of horror titles in the sixties, including Vampirilla, which is like, kind of, I feel it's sort of extreme in terms of both sex and horror, because I mean, we, we all know what Vampirilla his costume is. It hasn't changed in the 50, approximately 50 years that it's been out like. Dan: It's like, what can you do with dental floss, Right. When you were a vampire? I mean, that's basically like, she doesn't wear much. Mike: No, I mean, she never has. And then by the end of the sixties, Marvel and DC started to like kind of steer some of their books back towards the horror genre. Like how some Mystery was one of them where it, I think with issue 1 75, that was when they [00:25:00] took away, took it away from John Jones and dial H for Hero. And they were like, no, no, no, no. We're going to, we're going to bring, Cain back as the host and start telling horror morality plays again, which is what they were always doing. And this meant that the Comics Code Authority needed to update their code. So in 1971, they revised it to be a little bit more horror friendly. Jessika: Scenes dealing with, or instruments associated with, walking dead or torture shall not be used. Vampires, ghouls and werewolves shall be permitted to be used when handled in the classic traditions, such as Frankenstein, Dracula, and other high caliber literary works written by Edgar Allen Poe, Saki, Conan Doyle, and other respected authors whose works are read in schools around the world. Mike: But at this point, Marvel and DC really jumped back into the horror genre. This was when we started getting books, like the tomb of Dracula, Ghost Rider, where will finite and son of Satan, and then DC had a [00:26:00] bunch of their series like they had, what was it? So it was originally The Dark Mansion of Forbidden Love, and then it eventually got retitled to Forbidden Tales of the Dark Mansion. Like, just chef's kiss on that title. Dan: You can take that old Erie comic and throw, you know, the Dark Mansion of Forbidden Love as the title on that. And it would work, you know. Mike: I know. Right. So Dan, I'm curious, what is your favorite horror comic or comic character from this era? Dan: I would say, it was son of Satan, because it felt so trippy and forbidden, and I think comics have always, especially mainstream comics you know, I've always responded also to what's out there. Right. I don't think it's just a loosening the restrictions at that point, but in that error, what's going on, you're getting a lot of, I think the films of Race with the Devil and you're getting the Exorcist and you're getting, uh, the Omen, you know, Rosemary's baby. right. Satanism, [00:27:00] the devil, right. It's, it's high in pop culture. So true to form. You know, I think Son of Satan is in some ways, like a response of Marvel, you know, to that saying, let's glom onto this. And for a kid brought up in the Catholic church, there was a certain eeriness to this, ooh, we're reading about this. It's like, is it really going to be Satanism? And cause I was very nervous that we were not allowed even watch the Exorcist in our home, ever. You know, I didn't see the Exorcist until I was like out of high school. And I think also the character as he looks is just this really trippy look, right. At that point, if you're not familiar with the character, he's this buff dude, his hair flares up into horns, he just wears a Cape and he carries a giant trident, he's got a massive pentacle, I think a flaming pentacle, you know, etched in his chest. Um, he's ready to do business, ya know, in some strange form there. So for me, he was the one I glommed on to the most. [00:28:00] Mike: Yeah. Well, I mean, it was that whole era, it was just, it was Gothic horror brought back and Satanism and witchcraft is definitely a part of that genre. Dan: Sure. Mike: So, that said, kind of like any trend horror comics, you know, they have their rise and then they started to kind of fall out of popularity by the end of the seventies or the early eighties. I feel like it was a definite end of the era when both House of Mystery and Ghost Writer ended in 1983. But you know, there were still some individual books that were having success, but it just, it doesn't feel like Marvel did a lot with horror comics during the eighties. DC definitely had some luck with Alan Moore's run of the Swamp Thing. And then there was stuff like Hellblazer and Sandman. Which, as I mentioned, we're doing our book club episodes for, but also gave rise to Vertigo Comics, you know, in the early nineties. Not to say that horror comics still weren't a thing during this time, but it seems like the majority of them were coming from indie publishers. Off the top of my head, one example I think of still is Dead World, which basically created a zombie apocalypse [00:29:00] universe. And it started with Aero comics. It was created in the late eighties, and it's still going today. I think it's coming out from IDW now. But at the same time, it's not like American stopped enjoying horror stuff. Like this was the decade where we got Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm street, Evil Dead, Hellraiser, Poltergeist, Child's Play, just to name a few of the franchises that we were introduced to. And, I mentioned Hellraiser. I love Hellraiser, and Dan, I know that you have a pretty special connection to that brand. Dan: I do. I put pins in my face every night just to kind of keep my complexion, you know? Mike: So, let's transition over to the nineties and Marvel and let's start that off with Epic Comics. Epic started in the eighties, and it was basically a label that would print, create our own comics. And they eventually started to use label to produce, you know, in quotes, mature comics. So Wikipedia says that this was your first editorial job at Marvel was with the [00:30:00] Epic Line. Is that correct? Dan: Well, I'll go back and maybe do just a little correction on Epic's mission if you don't mind. Mike: Yeah, yeah. Dan: You know, first, which is it was always creator owned, and it did start as crude. And, but I don't think that ever then transitioned into more mature comics, sometimes that just was what creator-owned comics were. Right. That was just part of the mission. And so as a creator-owned imprint, it could be anything, it could be the silliest thing, it could be the most mature thing. So it was always, you know, part of what it was doing, and part of the mission of doing creator-owned comics, and Archie Goodwin was the editor in chief of that line, was really to give creators and in to Marvel. If we gave them a nice place to play with their properties, maybe they would want to go play in the mainstream Marvel. So you might get a creator who would never want to work for Marvel, for whatever reason, they would have a great Epic experience doing a range of things, and then they would go into this. So there was always levels of maturity and we always looked at it as very eclectic and challenging, you know, sometimes in a good [00:31:00] way. So I'll have to go back to Wikipedia and maybe correct them. My first job was actually, I was on the Marvel side and it was as the assistant to the assistant, to the editor in chief. So I would do all of the grunt work and the running around that the assistant to the editor in chief didn't want to do. And she would turn to me and say, Dan, you're going to go run around the city and find this thing for Jim Shooter. Now, then I did that for about five or six months, I was still in film school, and then left, which everyone was aghast, you don't leave Marvel comics, by choice. And, but I had, I was still in school. I had a summer job already sort of set up, and I left to go take that exciting summer job. And then I was called over the summer because there was an opening in the Epic line. And they want to know if I'd be interested in taking on this assistant editor's job. And I said, it would have to be part-time cause I still had a semester to finish in school, but they were intrigued and I was figuring, oh, well this is just kind of guaranteed job. [00:32:00] Never knowing it was going to become career-like, and so that was then sort of my second job. Mike: Awesome. So this is going to bring us to the character of Terror. So he was introduced as a character in the Shadow Line Saga, which was one of those mature comics, it was like a mature superhero universe. That took place in a few different series under the Epic imprint. There was Dr. Zero, there was St. George, and then there was Power Line. Right. Dan: That's correct, yep. Mike: And so the Shadow Line Saga took his name from the idea that there were these beings called Shadows, they were basically super powered immortal beings. And then Terror himself first appeared as Shrek. He's this weird looking enforcer for a crime family in St. George. And he becomes kind of a recurring nemesis for the main character. He's kind of like the street-level boss while it's hinting that there's going to be a eventual confrontation between the main character of St. George and Dr. Zero, who is kind of [00:33:00] a Superman character, but it turns out he has been manipulating humanity for, you know, millennia at this point. Dan: I think you've encapsulated it quite well. Mike: Well, thank you. So the Shadow Line Saga, that only lasted for about what a year or two? Dan: Probably a couple of years, maybe a little over. There was about, I believe, eight to nine issues of each of the, the main comics, the ones you just cited. And then we segued those over to, sort of, uh, an omni series we call Critical Mass, which brought together all three characters or storylines. And then try to tell this, excuse the pun, epic, you know story, which will advance them all. And so wrapped up a lot of loose ends and, um, you know, became quite involved now. Mike: Okay. Dan: It ran about seven or eight issues. Mike: Okay. Now a couple of years after Terror was introduced under the Epic label, Marvel introduced a new Ghost Rider series in 1990 that hit that sweet spot of like nineties extreme with a capital X and, and, you know, [00:34:00] it also gave us a spooky anti heroes like that Venn diagram, where it was like spooky and extreme and rides a motorcycle and right in the middle, you had Ghost Rider, but from what I understand the series did really well, commercially for Marvel. Comichron, which is the, the comic sales tracking site, notes that early issues were often in the top 10 books sold each month for 91. Like there are eight issues of Ghost Rider, books that are in the top 100 books for that year. So it's not really surprising that Marvel decided to go in really hard with supernatural characters. And in 1992, we had this whole batch of horror hero books launch. We had Spirits of Vengeance, which was a spinoff from Ghost Rider, which saw a Ghost Rider teaming up with Johnny Blaze, and it was the original Ghost Writer. And he didn't have a hellfire motorcycle this time, but he had a shotgun that would fire hell fire, you know, and he had a ponytail, it was magnificent. And then there was also the Night Stalkers, [00:35:00] which was a trio of supernatural investigators. There was Hannibal King and Blade and oh, I'm blanking on the third one. Dan: Frank Drake. Mike: Yeah. And Frank Drake was a vampire, right? Dan: And he was a descendant of Dracula, but also was a vampire who had sort of been cured. Um, he didn't have a hunger for human blood, but he still had a necessity for some type of blood and possessed all the attributes, you know, of a vampire, you know, you could do all the powers, couldn't go out in the daylight, that sort of thing. So, the best and worst of both worlds. Mike: Right. And then on top of that, we had the Dark Hold, which it's kind of like the Marvel equivalent of the Necronomicon is the best way I can describe it. Dan: Absolutely. Yup. Mike: And that's showed up in Agents of Shield since then. And they just recently brought it into the MCU. That was a thing that showed up in Wanda Vision towards the end. So that's gonna clearly reappear. And then we also got Morbius who is the living vampire from [00:36:00] Spider-Man and it's great. He shows up in this series and he's got this very goth rock outfit, is just it's great. Dan: Which looked a lot like how Len Kaminsky dressed in those days in all honesty. Mike: Yeah, okay. Dan: So Len will now kill me for that, but. Mike: Oh, well, but yeah, so these guys were all introduced via a crossover event called Rise of the Midnight Sons, which saw all of these heroes, you know, getting their own books. And then they also teamed up with Dr. Strange to fight against Lilith the mother of demons. And she was basically trying to unleash her monstrous spawn across the world. And this was at the same time the Terror wound up invading the Marvel Universe. So if you were going to give an elevator pitch for Terror in the Marvel Universe, how would you describe him? Dan: I actually wrote one down, I'll read it to you, cause you, you know, you put that there and was like, oh gosh, I got to like now pitch this. A mythic manifestation of fear exists in our times, a top dollar mercenary for hire using a supernatural [00:37:00] ability to attach stolen body parts to himself in order to activate the inherit ability of the original owner. A locksmith's hand or a marksman, his eye or a kickboxer his legs, his gruesome talent gives him the edge to take on the jobs no one else can, he accomplishes with Savage, restyle, scorn, snark, and impeccable business acumen. So. Mike: That's so good. It's so good. I just, I have to tell you the twelve-year-old Mike is like giddy to be able to talk to you about this. Dan: I was pretty giddy when I was writing this stuff. So that's good. Mike: So how did Terror wind up crossing into the Marvel Universe? Like, because he just showed shows up in a couple of cameos in some Daredevil issues that you also wrote. I believe. Dan: Yeah, I don't know if he'd showed up before the book itself launched that might've, I mean, the timing was all around the same time. But everybody who was involved with Terror, love that Terror and Terror Incorporated, which was really actual title. Love the hell out of [00:38:00] the book, right. And myself, the editors, Carl Potts, who was the editor in chief, we all knew it was weird and unique. And, at one point when I, you know, said to Carl afterwards, well I'm just gonna take this whole concept and go somewhere else with it, he said, you can't, you made up something that, you know, can't really be replicated without people knowing exactly what you're doing. It's not just another guy with claws or a big muscle guy. How many people grab other people's body parts? So I said, you know, fie on me, but we all loved it. So when, the Shadowline stuff kind of went away, uh, and he was sort of kicking out there is still, uh, Carl came to me one day and, and said, listen, we love this character. We're thinking of doing something with horror in Marvel. This was before the Rise of the Midnight Sons. So it kind of came a little bit ahead of that. I think this eventually would become exactly the Rise of the Midnight Sons, but we want to bring together a lot of these unused horror characters, like Werewolf by Night, Man Thing, or whatever, but we want a central kind of [00:39:00] character who, navigates them or maybe introduces them. Wasn't quite clear what, and they thought Terror, or Shrek as he still was at that point, could be that character. He could almost be a Crypt Keeper, maybe, it wasn't quite fully baked. And, so we started to bounce this around a little bit, and then I got a call from Carl and said, yeah, that's off. We're going to do something else with these horror characters, which again would eventually become probably the Midnight Sons stuff. But he said, but we still want to do something with it. You know? So my disappointment went to, oh, what do you mean? How could we do anything? He said, what if you just bring him into the Marvel Universe? We won't say anything about what he did before, and just use him as a character and start over with him operating as this high-end mercenary, you know, what's he going to do? What is Terror Incorporated, and how does he do business within the Marvel world? And so I said, yes, of course, I'm not going to say that, you know, any quicker and just jumped into [00:40:00] it. And I didn't really worry about the transition, you know, I wasn't thinking too much about, okay. How does he get from Shadow Line world, to earth 616 or whatever, Marcus McLaurin, who was the editor. God bless him, for years would resist any discussion or no, no, it's not the same character. Marcus, it's the same character I'm using the same lines. I'm having him referenced the same fact that he's had different versions of the word terrors, his name at one point, he makes a joke about the Saint George complex. I mean, it's the same character. Mike: Yeah. Dan: But , you know, Marcus was a very good soldier to the Marvel hierarchy. So we just really brought him over and we just went all in on him in terms of, okay, what could a character like this play in the Marvel world? And he played really well in certain instances, but he certainly was very different than probably anything else that was going on at the time. Mike: Yeah. I mean, there certainly wasn't a character like him before. So all the Wikias, like [00:41:00] Wikipedia, all the Marvel fan sites, they all list Daredevil 305 as Terror's first official appearance in. Dan: Could be. Mike: Yeah, but I want to talk about that for a second, because that is, I think the greatest villain that I've ever seen in a Marvel comic, which was the Surgeon General, who is this woman who is commanding an army of like, I mean, basically it's like a full-scale operation of that urban myth of - Dan: Yeah. Mike: -the dude goes home with an attractive woman that he meets at the club. And then he wakes up in a bathtub full of ice and he's missing organs. Dan: Yeah. You know, sometimes, you know, that was certainly urban myth territory, and I was a big student of urban myths and that was the sort of thing that I think would show up in the headlines every three to six months, but always one of those probably friend of a friend stories that. Mike: Oh yeah. Dan: Like a razor an apple or something like that, that never actually sort of tracks back. Mike: Well, I mean, the thing now is it's all edibles in candy and they're like, all the news outlets are showing officially [00:42:00] branded edibles. Which, what daddy Warbucks mother fucker. Jessika: Mike knows my stand on this. Like, no, no, nobody is buying expensive edibles. And then putting them in your child's candy. Like, No, no, that's stupid. Dan: No, it's the, it's the, easier version of putting the LSD tab or wasting your pins on children in Snickers bars. Jessika: Right. Dan: Um, but but I think, that, that storyline is interesting, Mike, cause it's the, it's one of the few times I had a plotline utterly just completely rejected by an editor because I think I was doing so much horror stuff at the time. Cause I was also concurrently doing the Hellraiser work, the Night Breed work. It would have been the beginning of the Night Stalkers work, cause I was heavily involved with the whole Midnight Sons work. And I went so far on the first plot and it was so grizzly and so gruesome that, Ralph Macchio who was the editor, called me up and said, yeah, this title is Daredevil. It's not Hellraiser. So I had to kind of back off [00:43:00] and realize, uh, yeah, I put a little too much emphasis on the grisliness there. So. Mike: That's amazing. Dan: She was an interesting, exploration of a character type. Mike: I'm really sad that she hasn't showed back up, especially cause it feels like it'd be kind of relevant these days with, you know, how broken the medical system is here in America. Dan: Yeah. It's, it's funny. And I never played with her again, which is, I think one of my many Achilles heels, you know, as I would sometimes introduce characters and then I would just not go back to them for some reason, I was always trying to kind of go forward onto something new. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Is there anything about Terror's character that you related to at the time, or now even. Dan: Um, probably being very imperious, very complicated, having a thing for long coats. Uh, I think all of those probably, you know, work then and now, I've kind of become convinced weirdly enough over time, that Terror was a character who [00:44:00] and I, you know, I co-created him with Margaret Clark and, and Klaus Janson, but I probably did the most work with him over the years, you know? So I feel maybe a little bit more ownership, but I've sort of become convinced that he was just his own thing, and he just existed out there in the ether, and all I was ultimately was a conduit that I was, I was just channeling this thing into our existence because he came so fully formed and whenever I would write him, he would just kind of take over the page and take over the instance. That's always how I've viewed him, which is different than many of the other things that I've written. Mike: He's certainly a larger than life personality, and in every sense of that expression. Jessika: Yes. Mike: I'm sorry for the terrible pun. Okay. So we've actually talked a bit about Terror, but I [00:45:00] feel like we need to have Jessika provide us with an overall summary of his brief series. Jessika: So the series is based on the titular character, of course, Terror, who is unable to die and has the ability to replace body parts and gains the skill and memory of that limb. So he might use the eye of a sharpshooter to improve his aim or the arm of an artist for a correct rendering. And because of the inability for his body to die, the dude looks gnarly. His face is a sick green color. He has spike whiskers coming out of the sides of his face, and he mostly lacks lips, sometimes he has lips, but he mostly lacks lips. So we always has this grim smile to his face. And he also has a metal arm, which is awesome. I love that. And he interchanges all of the rest of his body parts constantly. So in one scene he'll have a female arm and in another one it'll sport, an other worldly tentacle. [00:46:00] He states that his business is fear, but he is basically a paid mercenary, very much a dirty deeds, although not dirt cheap; Terror charges, quite a hefty sum for his services, but he is willing to do almost anything to get the job done. His first job is ending someone who has likewise immortal, air quotes, which involves finding an activating a half demon in order to open a portal and then trick a demon daddy to hand over the contract of immortality, you know, casual. He also has run-ins with Wolverine, Dr. Strange Punisher, Silver Sable, and Luke Cage. It's action packed, and you legitimately have no idea what new body part he is going to lose or gain in the moment, or what memory is going to pop up for him from the donor. And it keeps the reader guessing because Terror has no limitations. Mike: Yeah. Dan: was, I was so looking forward to hearing what your recap was going to be. I love that, so I just [00:47:00] want to say that. Jessika: Thank you. I had a lot of fun reading this. Not only was the plot and just the narrative itself, just rolling, but the art was fantastic. I mean, the things you can do with a character like that, there truly aren't any limits. And so it was really interesting to see how everything fell together and what he was doing each moment to kind of get out of whatever wacky situation he was in at the time.So. And his, and his quips, I just, the quips were just, they give me life. Mike: They're so good. Like there was one moment where he was sitting there and playing with the Lament Configuration, and the first issue, which I, I never noticed that before, as long as we ready this time and I was like, oh, that's great. And then he also made a St. George reference towards the end of the series where he was talking about, oh, I knew another guy who had a St. George complex. Dan: Right, right. Right, Mike: Like I love those little Easter eggs. Speaking of Easter eggs, there are a lot of Clive Barker Easter eggs throughout that whole series. Dan: [00:48:00] Well, That's it. That was so parallel at the time, you know. Mike: So around that time was when you were editing and then writing for the HellRaiser series and the Night Breed series, right? Dan: Yes. Certainly writing for them. Yeah. I mean, I did some consulting editing on the HellRaiser and other Barker books, after our lift staff, but, primarily writing at that point. Mike: Okay. Cause I have Hellraiser number one, and I think you're listed as an editor on it. Dan: I was, I started the whole Hellraiser anthology with other folks, you know, but I was the main driver, and I think that was one of the early instigators of kind of the rebirth of horror at that time. And, you know, going back to something you said earlier, you know, for many years, I was always, pressing Archie Goodwin, who worked at Warren, and worked on Erie, and worked on all those titles. You know, why can't we do a new horror anthology and he was quite sage like and saying, yeah. It'd be great to do it, but it's not going to sell there's no hook, right? There's no connection, you know, just horror for her sake. And it was when Clive Barker [00:49:00] came into our offices, and so I want to do something with Archie Goodwin. And then the two of them said, Hellraiser can be the hook. Right. Hellraiser can be the way in to sort of create an anthology series, have an identifiable icon, and then we developed out from there with Clive, with a couple of other folks Erik Saltzgaber, Phil Nutman, myself, Archie Goodwin, like what would be the world? And then the Bible that would actually give you enough, breadth and width to play with these characters that wouldn't just always be puzzle box, pinhead, puzzle box, pinhead, you know? And so we developed a fairly large set of rules and mythologies allowed for that. Mike: That's so cool. I mean, there really wasn't anything at all, like Hellraiser when it came out. Like, and there's still not a lot like it, but I - Jessika: Yeah, I was going to say, wait, what else? Mike: I mean, I feel like I've read other books since then, where there's that blending of sexuality and [00:50:00] horror and morality, because at the, at the core of it, Hellraiser often feels like a larger morality play. Dan: Now, you know, I'm going to disagree with you on that one. I mean, I think sometimes we let it slip in a morality and we played that out. But I think Hellraiser is sort of find what you want out of it. Right. You go back to the first film and it's, you know, what's your pleasure, sir? You know, it was when the guy hands up the book and the Centobites, you know, or angels to some demons, to others. So I think the book was at its best and the movies are at their best when it's not so much about the comeuppance as it is about find your place in here. Right? And that can be that sort of weird exploration of many different things. Mike: That's cool. So going back to Terror. Because we've talked about like how much we enjoyed the character and everything, I want to take a moment to talk about each of our favorite Terror moments. Dan: Okay. Mike: So Dan, why don't you start? What was your favorite moment for Terror [00:51:00] to write or going back to read? Dan: It's a great question, one of the toughest, because again, I had such delight in the character and felt such a connection, you know, in sort of channeling him in a way I could probably find you five, ten moments per issue, but, I actually think it was the it's in the first issue. And was probably the first line that sort of came to me. And then I wrote backwards from it, which was this, got your nose bit. And you know, it's the old gag of like when a parent's playing with a child and, you know, grabs at the nose and uses the thumb to represent the nose and says, got your nose. And there's a moment in that issue where I think he's just plummeted out of a skyscraper. He's, you know, fallen down into a police car. He's basically shattered. And this cop or security guard is kind of coming over to him and, and he just reaches out and grabs the guy's nose, you know, rips his arm off or something or legs to start to replace himself and, and just says, got your nose, but it's, but it's all a [00:52:00] build from this inner monologue that he's been doing. And so he's not responding to anything. He's not doing a quip to anything. He's just basically telling us a story and ending it with this, you know, delivery that basically says the guy has a complete condescending attitude and just signals that we're in his space. Like he doesn't need to kind of like do an Arnold response to something it's just, he's in his own little world moments I always just kind of go back to that got your nose moment, which is just creepy and crazy and strange. Mike: As soon as you mentioned that I was thinking of the panel that that was from, because it was such a great moment. I think it was the mob enforcers that had shot him up and he had jumped out of the skyscraper four and then they came down to finish him off and he wound up just ripping them apart so that he could rebuild himself. All right, Jessika, how about you? Jessika: I really enjoyed the part where Terror fights with sharks in order to free Silver Sable and Luke Cage. [00:53:00] It was so cool. There was just absolutely no fear as he went at the first shark head-on and, and then there were like five huge bloodthirsty sharks in the small tank. And Terror's just like, what an inconvenience. Oh, well. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Like followed by a quippy remark, like in his head, of course. And I feel like he's such a solitary character that it makes sense that he would have such an active internal monologue. I find myself doing that. Like, you know, I mean, I have a dog, so he usually gets the brunt of it, but he, you know, it's, it is that you start to form like, sort of an internal conversation if you don't have that outside interaction. Dan: Right. Jessika: And I think a lot of us probably relate to that though this pandemic. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: But the one-liner thoughts, like, again, they make those scenes in my opinion, and it gave pause for levity. We don't have to be serious about this because really isn't life or death for Terror. We know that, and he just reminds us that constantly by just he's always so damn nonchalant. [00:54:00] Dan: Yeah. He does have a very, I'm not going to say suave, but it's, uh, you know, that sort of very, I've got this, you know, sort of attitude to it. Mike: I would, say that he's suave when he wants to be, I mean, like the last issue he's got his whiskers tied back and kind of a ponytail. Dan: Oh yeah. Jessika: Oh yeah. Dan: Richard Pace did a great job with that. Mike: Where he's dancing with his assistant in the restaurant and it's that final scene where he's got that really elegant tuxedo. Like. Dan: Yeah. It's very beautiful. Mike: I say that he can be suave and he wants to be. So I got to say like my favorite one, it was a visual gag that you guys did, and it's in issue six when he's fighting with the Punisher and he's got this, long guns sniper. And he shoots the Punisher point blank, and Terror's, like at this point he's lost his legs for like the sixth time. Like he seems to lose his legs, like once an issue where he's just a torso waddling around on his hands. And so he shoots him the force skids him back. [00:55:00] And I legit could not stop laughing for a good minute. Like I was just cackling when I read that. So I think all of us agree that it's those moments of weird levity that really made the series feel like something special. Dan: I'm not quite sure we're going to see that moment reenacted at the Disney Pavilion, you know, anytime soon. But, that would be pretty awesome if they ever went that route. Mike: Well, yeah, so, I mean, like, let's talk about that for a minute, because one of the main ways that I consume Marvel comics these days is through Marvel unlimited, and Terror is a pretty limited presence there. There's a few issues of various Deadpool series. There's the Marvel team up that I think Robert Kirkman did, where Terror shows up and he has some pretty cool moments in there. And then there's a couple of random issues of the 1990s Luke Cage series Cage, but like the core series, the Marvel max stuff, his appearance in books like Daredevil and Wolverine, they just don't seem to be available for consumption via the. App Like I had to go through my personal [00:56:00] collection to find all this stuff. And like, are the rights just more complicated because it was published under the Epic imprint and that was create her own stuff, like do you know? Dan: No, I mean, it wouldn't be it's choice, right. He's probably perceived as a, if people within the editorial group even know about him, right. I was reading something recently where some of the current editorial staff had to be schooled on who Jack Kirby was. So, I'm not sure how much exposure or, you know, interest there would be, you know, to that. I mean, I don't know why everything would be on Marvin unlimited. It doesn't seem like it requires anything except scanning the stuff and putting it up there. But there wouldn't be any rights issues. Marvel owned the Shadow Line, Marvel owns the Terror Incorporated title, it would have been there. So I'm not really sure why it wouldn't be. And maybe at some point it will, but, that's just an odd emission. I mean, for years, which I always felt like, well, what did I do wrong? I [00:57:00] mean, you can find very little of the Daredevil work I did, which was probably very well known and very well received in, in reprints. It would be like, there'd be reprints of almost every other storyline and then there'd be a gap around some of those things. And now they started to reappear as they've done these omnibus editions. Mike: Well, yeah, I mean, you know, and going back the awareness of the character, anytime I talk about Terror to people, it's probably a three out of four chance that they won't have heard of them before. I don't know if you're a part of the comic book historians group on Facebook? Dan: I'm not. No. Mike: So there's a lot of people who are really passionate about comic book history, and they talk about various things. And so when I was doing research for this episode originally, I was asking about kind of the revamp of supernatural heroes. And I said, you know, this was around the same time as Terror. And several people sat there and said, we haven't heard of Terror before. And I was like, he's great. He's amazing. You have to look them up. But yeah, it seems like, you know, to echo what you stated, it seems like there's just a lack of awareness about the character, which I feel is a genuine shame. And that's part of the [00:58:00] reason that I wanted to talk about him in this episode. Dan: Well, thank you. I mean, I love the spotlight and I think anytime I've talked to somebody about it who knew it, I've never heard somebody who read the book said, yeah, that sucks. Right. I've heard that about other things, but not about this one, invariably, if they read it, they loved it. And they were twisted and kind of got into it. But did have a limited run, right? It was only 13 issues. It didn't get the spotlight, it was sort of promised it kind of, it came out with a grouping of other mercenary titles at the time. There was a new Punisher title. There was a Silver Sable. There was a few other titles in this grouping. Everyone was promised a certain amount of additional PR, which they got; when it got to Terror. It didn't get that it like, they pulled the boost at the last minute that might not have made a difference. And I also think maybe it was a little bit ahead of its time in certain attitudes crossing the line between horror and [00:59:00] humor and overtness of certain things, at least for Marvel, like where do you fit this? I think the readers are fine. Readers are great about picking up on stuff and embracing things. For Marvel, it was kind of probably, and I'm not dissing them. I never got like any negative, you know, we're gonna launch this title, what we're going to dismiss it. But I just also think, unless it's somebody like me driving it or the editor driving it, or Carl Potts, who was the editor in chief of that division at that point, you know, unless they're pushing it, there's plenty of other characters Right. For, things to get behind. But I think again, anytime it kind of comes up, it is definitely the one that I hear about probably the most and the most passionately so that's cool in its own way. Mike: Yeah, I think I remember reading an interview that you did, where you were talking about how there was originally going to be like a gimmick cover or a trading card or something like that. Dan: Yeah. Mike: So what was the, what was the gimmick going to be for Terror number one? Dan: What was the gimmick going to be? I don't know, actually, I if I knew I [01:00:00] can't remember anymore. But it was going to be totally gimmicky, as all those titles and covers were at the time. So I hope not scratch and sniff like a, uh, rotting bodies odor, although that would have been kind of in-character and cool. Mike: I mean, this was the era of the gimmick cover. Dan: Oh, absolutely. Mike: Like,that was when that was when we had Bloodstrike come out and it was like the thermographic printing, so you could rub the blood and it would disappear. Force Works is my favorite one, you literally unfold the cover and it's like a pop-up book. Dan: Somebody actually keyed me in. There actually was like a Terror trading card at one point. Mike: Yeah. Dan: Like after the fact, which I was like, shocked. Mike: I have that, that's from Marvel Universe series four. Dan: Yeah. we did a pretty good job with it actually. And then even as we got to the end of the run, you know, we, and you can sort of see us where we're trying to shift certain aspects of the book, you know, more into the mainstream Marvel, because they said, well, we'll give you another seven issues or something, you know, to kind of get the numbers up. Mike: Right. Dan: And they pulled the plug, you know, even before that. So, uh, that's why [01:01:00] the end kind of comes a bit abruptly and we get that final coda scene, you know, that Richard Pace did such a nice job with. Mike: Yeah. I mean, it felt like it wrapped it up, you know, and they gave you that opportunity, which I was really kind of grateful for, to be honest. Dan: Yeah. and subsequently, I don't know what's going on. I know there was that David Lapham, you know, series, you did a couple of those, which I glanced at, I know I kind of got in the way of it a little bit too, not in the way, but I just said, remember to give us a little created by credits in that, but I didn't read those. And then, I know he was in the League of Losers at one point, which just didn't sound right to me. And, uh. Mike: It's actually. Okay. So I'm going to, I'm going to say this cause, it's basically a bunch of, kind of like the B to C listers for the most part. And. So they're called the Legal Losers. I think it's a really good story, and I actually really like what they do with Terror. He gets, she's now Spider Woman, I think it's, Anya Corazon, but it was her original incarnation of, Arana. And she's got that spider armor that like comes out of her arm. And so she [01:02:00] dies really on and he gets her arm. And then, Dan: That's cool. Mike: What happens is he makes a point of using the armor that she has. And so he becomes this weird amalgamation of Terror and Arana's armored form, which is great. Dan: Was that the Kirkman series? Is that the one that he did or. Mike: yeah. That was part of Marvel Team-Up. Dan: Okay. Mike: it was written by Robert Kirkman. Dan: Well, then I will, I will look it up. Mike: Yeah. And that one's on Marvel unlimited and genuinely a really fun story as I remembered. It's been a couple of years since I read it, but yeah. Dan: Very cool. Mike: So we've talked about this a little bit, but, so

Somewhere in Washington, in a parked car. Ike: It's a dumpster fire.Mike: They'll bound back.Ike: Didn't Elon Musk invent some kind of brain enhancement thing? Is it too soon to get that for Biden? Is it only chimps?Mike: What?Ike: Nutrisystem … Nutra grain … Mike: Nuralink! Ike: Is it too late to join human clinical trials?Mike: Don't be an ass. Everybody gets old. Ike: Most people don't get that old. Mike: The boomers. They built it all. Now, they're destroying it all. Everything is coming apart. Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer - how did it all go so wrong?Ike: Seriously, calm down. It's not that bad. He can bounce back. If he passes those bills the press will be giving him slobbery blow—you know. Mike: Please don't say it. Ike: He's putting on the heat with Manchin, the press keeps bullying Sinema - how long can she possibly hold out? Although her fashion sense tells me she doesn't exactly want to blend in. Got Obama out in Virginia to drag MacAuliffe over the finish line. They have Americans whipped up into unmanageable panic and fear with January 6th. They'll do as they're told. Polls will rise because that is the story we're going to tell. Reality is less of an issue than what we say the reality is. Reality isn't what you think it is. Reality is just a matter of opinion. If we say everything is going fine, then everything is going fine.Mike: What?Ike: They'll bounce back. He's too big to fail. They are too big to fail. The press, the blue checks - they will not let him fail. They put him in power and they don't want to look like fools. We got this.Mike: It's more than the polls. There is a disconnect between reality and fantasy. The people who are dictating what the Democrats do are themselves completely out of touch with at least half of the American people. What the Right thinks about the Left is closer to reality than what the Left has decided the Right is. The Democrats only have one option to win elections: To scare voters. Rolling Stone comes out with a January 6 piece just before a big election. But what no one ever says is that there were two separate events that day. One was legal and one wasn't. They're treating the whole thing, all of the people who were there to protest lawfully and rightfully into insurrectionists. They weren't. And yet. If they can keep the people scared they can maintain some power. Once that fear goes away, though, they are sunk. But they need fear and fear is destroying the country. Democrats really think that this is the way forward. It is a way forward. To war. Ike: You're overthinking it. I'm telling you, the kind of power backing the Democrats right now is insurmountable. We just need to spitball a few ideas to throw out into the public to let them know the Biden administration is on their side. Maybe stop testing baby puppy beagles. Just a thought.Mike: Oh you mean like removing Thomas Jefferson from City Hall? Pronouns Day by the State Department? This was not supposed to be America's second revolution. You start taking down the statues of confederates, that's one thing. Teddy Roosevelt - now it's getting weird. You take down Jefferson, that's the end of the American experiment. Ike: Okay, so those didn't work as well. We have to think outside the box here. Ice cream, bike rides, that disastrous Town Hall with Anderson Cooper…not working. So what about, you know, maybe a kind of casual fun thing. Slow jam the news?Mike: BIDEN IS NOT OBAMA! He doesn't have that kind of charisma. No one wants to see him on TV. The country is falling apart. Ike: Do you want me to give you a “yeah but” or are you past the point of no return.Mike: We just dig around in our pockets and find that one shiny penny that gets us off the hook. Yes it was a global pandemic, yes we were so freaked out we were wearing face shields and lining up outside of Costco but when hundreds of thousands hit the streets it was yeah but they're wearing masks. Yeah but they're outside. In May. Of 2020. I know what your “yeah but” is going to be. You'll say yeah but Thomas Jefferson isn't being taken down, he's just being moved. But yes moved after being called an offensive racist! THOMAS JEFFERSON!Ike: Yeah … but …what do you me to say? Mike: I want you to say Biden will start facing reality. He'll start being the guy who would never go for removing Thomas Jefferson from City Hall. It's not that hard. It's the least you'd expect from a president. The very least. Ike: Those who voted on it don't represent the Democratic Party or Biden. Mike: Yeah but. Yeah but. Yeah BUT!Ike: Why are you generalizing? Okay, so we all know what Thomas Jefferson did with Sally Hemmings and all that, what this whole country did building itself up to be the greatest country in the world, wasn't exactly pretty. Do you think the elite class who own million-dollar homes are really going to give them back to the indigenous people they claim to care about? Like Gwyneth Paltrow and Laura Dern? No. Are they going to give away all their money to families living in poverty? Not a chance. Taking away the Jefferson statue allows them to feel as though the right people, long since dead, aren't around to defend themselves or make excuses or virtue signals on Instagram, are the ones paying the price for progress. That is enough. Take down the statue and they can keep their stuff. Mike: What we need is someone with courage. Wisdom. Someone to stand up to Twitter. Teddy Roosevelt took a bullet to the chest and still went on to give a speech. He could handle Twitter.Ike: Biden is just trying to get through the day. And I don't know if TR could handle Twitter. Public humiliation is a crippling fear.Mike: They voted for the guy in the middle. The moderate. If you could sum up what they voted for it would be: Not Bernie Sanders. Not Elizabeth Warren. Ike: They didn't vote FOR anything. They voted against something. Or someone. The American people don't know what they want. We tell them what they want. Mike: What if America is being sabotaged. What if there is an entire army of spies infiltrating all of our institutions and slowly weakening them. Ike: I think those are just Berkeley graduates. Mike: It's all starting to make sense now. What if you were smart enough to destroy a country not with bombs but with ideas. Idea pathogens. What if you could weaken their education system, weaken their military, weaken their scientific research by figuring out how to knock out those who are genuinely the best at what they do but because they might not meet the DEI requirements they have to go work at Costco just to find employment.Ike: I'm sorry, you lost me, man. Get a grip. It's not that big of a deal.Mike: Not that big of a deal? The whole plane has crashed into the whole mountain.Mike: Think about it: you have no choice but to hop aboard the Woke Express, destination: Utopia. And if you have no choice that means your military has no choice, your teachers have no choice, your media has no choice, your entertainment has no choice. How can a country function when it is at war with its own foundational principles? Think of how easy it would be to get on Twitter and call everything racist. The Chinese totally have our number on that. They laugh at us because of it. They know they just have to press that button and our entire system goes into DEFCON 1. Think of how easy it is to throw us off our game, to scare us into distraction and panic.Ike: You've been watching too much Tucker Carlson. Mike: Me and everyone else in America. It used to be easier to pivot when no one did. Ike: But now they do.Mike: Now they do.Ike: Even Jake Tapper. Mike: Even Jake Tapper.Ike: Even Rachel Maddow. Especially Rachel Maddow. Mike: I think people are watching because they're angry. Ike: Trump is gone. They have nothing to be angry about.Mike: Except Trump isn't gone, is he. They booted him off social media just to prove the half the country that votes for him that they are elites who are above even the President. Now he's got some social media thing that is worth twice what the New York Times is worth. He is headed towards running a business worth 20 billion. Ike: He'll screw it up. Mike: Doesn't matter. This is only moving in one direction. It means the left is collapsing. You get that, right? Once they start firing editors at the New York Times for words they said on a field trip, it's over, man. Thomas Jefferson - it's over. Ike: Come on, we have a whole army on Twitter. The blue checks! Mike: What, that's like 3,000 people max. Ike: We have Zuckabucks. Mike: America is an idea. An idea that is crumbling and being replaced by ideas that have already proven themselves failures. Even Vladimir Putin knows this. Even Xi Jinping knows this. They see what America is becoming. They also seem almost sad to watch its decline. I always used to go to sleep at night thinking I lived in the best country in the world and that every other country envied our scrappy tale. But look at us now. Ike: Look, man, it's really not that bad. Mike: It is that bad. Ike: White men have ruled this country since its founding. So they're taking a well-deserved hit. Let's recenter the narrative for a change. Mike: Oh, yeah, no big deal, like every person who built this country, drove scientific achievements, made the best movies, wrote the best books. We're just gonna pretend they're expendable?Ike: By stomping on and exploiting marginalized people. Mike: Oh b******t. Right, like Einstein? Ike: Pretending is not so bad. This whole country was founded on pretending. Jack Dorsey and Jeff Bezos and Joe Biden are the perfect patriarchs America wants. What you can see is fully compliant, what you can't see still holds all of the power. Take away a Jefferson statue here, implement DEI mandates there, vote for Kamala Harris. We are all playing a game that all of a sudden we've solved the problem of inequity. But it's all a game, man. It always has been. So let's just pretend a little longer. That is what we're paid to do so shut up and dance. Mike: So what's next?Ike: We're primates. We probably need an alpha male to take us out of chaos in the final analysis. Round and round and round in the circle game. No one on the left has that kind of courage right now so you do the math. Mike: So after that all that, we're primates, that's it? Ike: Well if I had to guess, yes. Of course if I said that out loud I'd be fired. Mike: So in other words, Trump 2024. Ike: Your words, not mine. Mike: We are seriously going to run a candidate who couldn't even beat competitors on her own side against Trump? Ike: Do we have a choice? Mike: Why don't we have a choice? Ike: Because if you critcize her or seek a replacement you will be called a racist, just as you would have in 2020 if you suggested she wasn't the best choice for Veep. How else are we going to get an overeducated group of social justice Zoomers to turn out? Mike: Let's go, Brandon.Ike: Yeah but. Mike: Yeah. Get full access to Free Thinking Through the Fourth Turning with Sasha Stone at sashastone.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, we pay homage to the fantastic genre of alien invasion movies. Movies like Independence Day, Skyline, War of the Worlds, etc. Aliens arrive, and though their intentions are unclear at first, we quickly learn that they are not here to be peaceful and make friends. It's up to a military leader and her scientist ex to figure out how to stop the invasion and save the world. This episode has love, drama, and port-a-potties (yes, port-a-potties)! Links Independence Day movie on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Day_(1996_film) War of the Worlds on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Worlds_(2005_film) Skyline  on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyline_(2010_film) Time Codes Segment 1 - Discussion the Genre Tropes: 03:30 Segment 2 - Creating the Movie Outline: 09:47 Segment 3 - Picking the Improv Comedy Games: 16:36 Start of show: 24:55 Improv Game - Movie Trailer: 25:17 Improv Game - Best of Times Worst of Times: 26:53 Improv Game - One Word at a Time Typewriter: 34:30 Improv Game - Blind Line: 46:15 Improv Game - Cutting Room: 56:23 End of show, into announcements: 1:07:17 More Information About the Show, Mike, and Avish Subscribe to the podcast:  Our Website: www.AvishAndMike.com Our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/143183833647812 Avish's site: www.AvishParashar.com  Mike's site: www.MikeWorthMusic.com/   Transcription of the “Discussing the Genre Tropes” Segment (Unedited and Un-Cleaned up) Avish: What do you think when you think of a big budget alien invasion movie. Mike: Oh boy well so to start with um there's always the ominous foreshadowing right so it's always like. Mike: You know they find some alien tech like buried in like in guardians all over the world or look there's an establishing shot, so they let you know, right from the get go that something bad's going on. Mike: that's because the establishing act one usually act one is all about the impending dread of the arrival of the Aliens in a mysterious fashion and the US in various countries trying to establish contact with it it's almost always like that right. Avish: yeah they figured out that they're not sure, a lot of time is. Avish: Are they friendly are they dangerous in the first act it's a lot of. Avish: there's like usually there's like a military character or group that knows the Aliens are there knows the Aliens are coming, but then there's like the general populace, that is, like just discovering the aliens and not sure what's going on with them. Mike: Right right right and. Mike: You know act one usually ends with the first blast of aggression that's that's the crossing of the threshold right where it's. Avish: Like a big I mean independent they certainly. Avish: Had big aggression, but a lot. Mike: yeah. Mike: And then they did you know what they did, which was really cool and this is, if we can try and boy, this is a bridge too far, maybe, but we should try it. Mike: Independence Day nail it because they had three crossing of the threshold at the same time, so the chopper was destroyed. Mike: At the same time that the scientists will, at that time there was a doomsday timer at the same time that all the ships start opening up their lights on top of New York City.    Mike: So it was like every every every feeler from our planet, that was out was getting was getting.    Avish: Like a lot of shifts we're hitting a lot of fans all.    Mike: The shifts in the fans yeah.    Avish: that's right, then we get into the um there's a lot of scrambling like there's a total overwhelm right like the Aliens are always just.    Mike: completely outside yeah absolutely dominant right then act two is the regroup and usually the counter attack and the best part is well I.    Avish: Think, part two, is like the over like act one is where we're learning we're not sure Act two is where the Aliens just dominate.    Avish: X three I feel is when you get kind of we're getting more proactive we're going to fight back, but it usually is relatively ineffective.    Mike: mate right.    Avish: You know okay we're going to drop the nuke and Independence Day, and that does nothing.    Mike: yep or in or in Independence Day, though the knockoff them like virtus scored they may mount a couple of offenses in the early, just like wipe them out like just because they're just.    Mike: underground and stuff like that now they're usually has to be a macguffin that changes the tide something involving human ingenuity and usually involving like the little rogue science team to kind of figure something out right.    Avish: Well it's always yeah it's it's the the other civilian version like there was, like the civilian in the military yeah the civilian figure something out Independence Day, with the virus in war of the worlds, it was a real virus.    Mike: yeah but we're the world's this is kind of funny like it's one of the few movies, where the humans had nothing to do with just defeated the.    Avish: retrospective terrible storytelling.    Mike: yeah yeah so it's a great. Avish: ultimate deus ex machina it's like.    Avish: Oh yeah yeah yeah you're.    Avish: gonna wipe you out, but the common cold cold.    Mike: Because he's angel these aliens all this advanced technology that hungered for our world didn't research, the common virus and bacteria.    Avish: Like insides where they didn't research, the planet was covered in water.    Mike: yeah so 1% water yes.    Avish: We, for our story we'd like a more proactive, but it could also be the author trope that comes up a lot, which I don't know we're gonna do is the hive mind alien queen trope where it's like.    Avish: yeah discovered to fight back you know we don't need to destroy the entire alien race which is dominant we.    Avish: got killed.    Mike: queen yeah the board the board idea that you know.    Avish: The Board mind or yeah a lot of.    Avish: Like rain of fire which is dragons not aliens but it's like hey we killed.    Avish: The Queen dragon and all the dragons die, so I.    Mike: Actually, never saw that it looks good and cool.    Avish: I saw it in the theater I don't remember very much about it, which should tell you something.    Avish: it's yeah my recollection is I wouldn't call it a good movie, but it may have been a fun movie.    Mike: you've already reminded me that there will be, because any trope there will be a Matthew mcconaughey character in our in our.    Avish: character.    Mike: yeah and he's gonna be in our show.    Mike: Because now. Avish: Oh there's almost always um. Some.    Avish: relationship in peril you know there's like the estranged. Avish: husband and wife back to each other or the father trying to save the sound of the mother trying to say or in shark NATO, where it was the guy from beverly hills.    Mike: No, I know from American pie, I engineering and Terry fantastic some kind of like.    Avish: To the main characters will be connected.    Avish: Yes, some kind of romance or love.    Mike: There is usually a general slash military leader who is initially at odds with the heroes and heroin, but then has kind of a come to Jesus thing and at three and four.    Avish: yeah they're not like evil they're just.    Avish: opinionated damien's yeah.    Avish: yeah yeah and that's our five minutes, I think the final thing i'll throw in there is.    Avish: Most of these don't have a real villain like the entire alien race is like the villain does not like a head alien.    Avish: Even if it's a queen it's not like.    Avish: Being a character.    Mike: and much of the conflict actually allies, with a disaster movie it's like they're trying to escape a building as it's getting nuked by laser bolts or.    Mike: You know the the Aliens blow up a dam and obviously it's a way it's a cheap way for people to get like a little disaster movie in there it's like Oh, they start a forest fire and you have to flee and now you have to be you have to fight, you have to defeat.    Avish: Yes, I like a lot of times yeah when they are blowing stuff up the Aliens are the disaster like Independence Day, the first half of that movie is like pure just disaster movie. Mike: Exactly so that's yeah that's your thing we got to think of it's like there's a healthy component to disaster before that it's not like Star Wars or star trek where it's like SCI fi space flights and stuff.    Avish: All right.    Mike: we're good place we're in a good spot. Transcription of the “Creating the Outline” Segment (Unedited and Un-Cleaned up)    Avish: For this movie it's going to be rough in a high level and because we're going to be using improv games to play this we may end up veering from the outline in minor ways, or even a major ways, but this is kind of our starting point.    Mike: yeah we reserve the right to change anything and everything exactly.    Avish: But this is what we're going to kind of roughly stick to you, so our five minute timer starts now alright so for this one you're thinking prologue well, so we always start your first time listening, where we start with a prologue or a movie trailer.    Avish: We want a prologue of the Aliens arriving and all that or do you want just the movie trailer.    Avish: of you.    Mike: can see it either way man, you make the call today.    Mike: I like them both.    Avish: The movie trailer, for we last couple times we don't a prologue so let's do a trailer.    Mike: yeah yeah yeah.    Avish: alright.    Avish: So now for outline what happens in act one.    Avish: Of the Aliens need to arrive and people need to find out the military and the civilian need to find out.    Mike: Right military finds out first.    Mike: And they have to find out, first because they need to start mobilizing their stuff to be ahead of the civilian population.    Mike: yeah realizing response alright a. Avish: Civilian a the civilians to find out, we also need to establish the relationship for the civilian right like.    Mike: yeah and and let's keep it simple let's let's go with the.    Mike: main hero.    Mike: Love interest.    Avish: I mean, if you want it, and this can come out of the improv you want to keep it simple also one thing there's like the coincidence right so it's like. Avish: It could be the military person and the civilian main character are like husband wife or access or boyfriend girlfriend or you know, instead of having an extra character which sometimes when we're doing improv can get a little confusing.    Mike: Man all right, our accents are only so good. Mike: We only have I only have so many American deal with you know that, should we can do that a main character mean here leverages military commander, we have to establish.    Mike: Now now do we want the main hero to have agency in terms of like there's a reason he wants to defeat the Aliens or is he just caught up in it and just happens to be heroic.    Avish: Well, I think the military one wants to defeat the aliens and the civilian one just kind of gets caught up maybe because they're connected to the military person or there.    Mike: huh yeah.    Avish: It just happened to be.    Mike: I haven't read yet tell me this is like look look getting too granular but, like the Aliens had some tech they're using the setup the assault and the main hero gets a hold of the tech or translates the tech or somehow is able to use it against the aliens. Avish: yeah I think that's good that's kind of like how Jeff goldblum figured out the countdown codependent thing.    Avish: yeah all right, and then at the end of by the end of act one the Aliens will have attacked like.    Mike: yeah and then there's this just mass destruction that.    Avish: yeah maybe attempt contact.    Avish: And then attack yep.    Mike: And it bleeds out the attacks bleed over into active, because at the end of Act two is going to be a bunch of disaster scenes you know what I mean like you know that i'm trying to get through.    Avish: And that's it's gonna be a lot of like yeah vignettes of disaster scrambling attacks.    Mike: yeah.    Mike: Military getting pummeled.    Mike: Civilians fleeing right.    Avish: And at this point if they haven't connected in Act two, I think, is when our main characters we'll all meet up like if we've got a military and civilian and maybe a third one they'll all kind of connected this point.    Mike: All parties unify and a location yeah.    Mike: See, I would, I would say I don't always like oh man, I wonder what they didn't like escape from La or whatever it is battlefield la but and watch those movies were like apparently horrible like battleship was horrible.    Avish: battles a battle Los Angeles was.    Avish: Okay, it was mildly entertaining.    Avish: So I think at the end of Act two is when kind of everyone gets together.    Mike: yeah and then, and then the yeah and then at three is usually the prep retaliatory strike.    Avish: yeah and real quick if you're listening and you're familiar with story and act structure of most use a three act structure we use a four were basically divide out to into.    Avish: Act two and three, because actually longer now, we have had the first half of us the reactive, the second half is proactive so.    Mike: Right games, you want to talk about the end of the big act to block so.    Avish: Act three right.    Mike: good guys do retaliatory strike yeah.    Avish: They formulate a plan and retaliate work.    Mike: Usually the strike is ineffective to mildly effective, you know we'll give them the BAT you know it did it doesn't But then what usually happens is.    Mike: Civilian main characters.    Mike: discover macguffin right. Avish: yeah or though I think I will have like the end of act three like that's kind of how it they kind of figured out so.    Mike: yeah I.    Avish: figured out at the end, I think, in addition to the.    Avish: I think this is where you get the big disagreement, you know you're saying how the middle of like the there's usually a more veteran military leader, I think this is where the disagreement kind of comes to a head.    Mike: yeah we're the leader. Avish: In effect, tool and then they kind of have to turn to the civilian solution. Mike: mm hmm exactly and then act for is usually mounting the the assault yeah.    Avish: And i'll plan and usually there's a heightened sense of danger, like the the Aliens figure out where the good guys are hiding or they have captured you know the someone important to the the main characters.    Mike: yep and and yeah and the heightened sense of danger, this is the last chance, where I know we're a little over but it's all right, usually a split narrative usually there's like. Mike: When you're looking at the military side of it used to be epic battle and usually there's a smaller commando team is doing something else. Mike: You know, to mean like again yeah. Avish: This is very independent and if we're going, I mean may get too confusing for our forum, but if we had a third, to be like the third will be like. Avish: The by standards civilians like trying to stay safe there's like counter attack small desperate strike force and then everyone else just trying to survive.    Mike: Right exactly. Avish: And Randy quaid flying a plane. Mike: Wait wait with the new version one with a. Avish: A biplane and like a crop missing. Mike: So, by the way, because you guys are listening, and this is how funny love this stuff that apparently that scene was in the original test screening of Independence Day Randy quaid character. Avish: or SCI fi on like YouTube the original. Mike: Like and apparently the audience just. Mike: They were like yeah X that. Avish: Terrible. Avish: I don't know and he, like. Avish: It missile like strapped in the backseat of his plane. Mike: yeah yeah like. Mike: Worst armory gunnery sergeant ever like you just let's go walk off with the sidewinder.    Mike: Alright, so so. Mike: Cheap.

Hop into your big rigs and get ready for a wild ride! In this episode, we're going to be talking about U.S. 1, Marvel's licensed series about a long-haul trucker who also happened to be a superhero.----more---- Episode 12 Transcript [00:00:00] Mike: If you're a middle-aged white guy, maybe trying to sit there and write about the troubles that indigenous people from other countries face, maybe don't do that. Just my ten cents. Welcome to Ten Cent Takes, the podcast where we hand-wave plot holes like it's nobody's business, one issue at a time. My name is Mike Thompson and I am joined by my cohost of chaos, Jessika Frazer. Jessika: Well, hello.  Mike: Hello. Jessika: How are you doing?  Mike: Uh, I am doing a lot better now that I am not on jury duty anymore. So. Jessika: Woo.  Mike: I mean, don't get me wrong. It's a [00:01:00] civic duty that we should all be happy to perform, but it's really nice when you don't have to do it. Jessika: I've been on a jury before.  Mike: Was it, a cool case? Jessika: No, it was a disturbing, unsettling case, but it was still a civic case? It was just, Yeah. It was, it was not great. And I couldn't talk about it. So let's just say I, I took out a lot of my angst with a tennis racket against the wall. Not, not the racket itself, but hitting the ball against the wall a lot. Mike: Yeah,  Jessika: But, civic, duty, it is. So I was 19 at the time.  Mike: I think the last time I had to report for jury duty in person I was 25, give or take. Jessika: Mm.  Mike: And then I got dismissed because they asked me if I would believe a teenager's word over a cop, and at the time I was like, hell no. And these days. Jessika: Yeah. Different opinions now.  Mike: Yeah. [00:02:00] Tangent aside, the reason that we're here on this podcast is because we like to look at and talk about comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We like to look at the weirdest, silliest, strangest, and coolest moments, and examine how they have been woven into pop culture and history in general.  In this episode, we're hitting the open road of the Marvel Universe and looking at U.S. 1, a 1980s maxi-series about a superhero big rig trucker. But before we go down that road, what is one cool thing that you have read or watched lately? Jessika: So, I had a suggestion made to me by Lauren, from Outer Planes in Santa Rosa. Hey Lauren. And she told me about a comic that is set in the same universe as the Alice in Leatherland that I started reading and I've had on my pull list now.  Mike: Yeah, the one that you mentioned a couple episodes ago?  [00:03:00] Jessika: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so it was also from Black Mask and it's called Destiny, NY.  I'm on issue one, which is a veritable chonker,  it's absolutely awesome. There are two girls kissing in a closet within the first three pages, so you know I'm already in. And it's cool because it's set in a version of New York where magic exists, and follows a school for kids that have been told by one seer or another that they have a destiny or a prophecy to fulfill. And the students have different abilities and visual characteristics, like one has a third eye and she's supposed to like, see the greatest lie out of the truths or something like that. And she's like, but I don't even know what that is.  It's all super vague, like these poor kids. And I've grabbed the first five issues, and I will be tearing through these and no [00:04:00] time. I'm sure, cause it's already super fun.  Mike: Yeah, that sounds fantastic, to be completely honest. There was a book that I read about a year ago called Magic for Liars, which is a boarding school for magic users. And then the sister of, one of the faculty is called in to investigate a death, and it's really cool because she's not a magic user, but her sister who is part of the faculty is so it's, it was cool. I liked it a lot. Jessika: That's neat.  Mike: But yeah, that was a cool book.  Jessika: Nice.  Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Well, what about you? What you've been reading, watching, listening to?  Mike: All right. So I'm always mildly embarrassed to admit that I'm a Conan fan, mainly because I think so many people just associate them with Arnold Schwarzenegger and those middling to not-good movies that they made with him in the eighties. Um, yeah, but I really fell in love with his Comics back in 2005 or so,  when they were being done by Dark Horse and they were really, really good. They were these wonderfully dark, low fantasy stories that always seem to [00:05:00] balance like action and tragedy and comedy really well. And Marvel got the character back a couple of years ago, so they've been doing really cool work with them lately.  The new Conan series is really fun and feels really true to the original stories, but they've also displaced him through time, and now they've got them hanging out in the mainstream Marvel Universe via this series.  Jessika: Oh, interesting.  Mike: Yeah. And it's in the series called the Savage Avengers.  It's wild. It's written by Gerrry Duggan, who, he wrote, arguably the best Conan story that I've ever read in Conan 2099, which is they took that Spider-Man 2099 universe, and then they slapped him right in the middle of it.  Jessika: Oh.  Mike: It it's great, like the way that it was written was so perfect. And it's one of those books where anybody who sits there and even if they say they're not a Conan fan, I just say, you need to read this. It's wonderful.  But anyway, so Savage Avengers features him going on adventures with characters like Wolverine [00:06:00] Deadpool, the Punisher and Electra. It's so dumb, but it's so much fun. Like, early on in the series,  he gets a Venom- symbiate joined with them, but it's really weak. So it can only form weapons for him.  Jessika: Okay.  Mike: It's just it, it's great. It's an absolute guilty pleasure, and I refuse to apologize for this. So it was unfortunately not available in Marvel Unlimited, which is probably why I hadn't heard about it, but the back issues are all pretty cheap, and I grabbed a ton of them from Brian's comics on my last run, and I've just been having a blast reading them. We probably should do an episode actually, where we talk about the fact that Conan has been in comics for almost 50 years. And  Jessika: Oh.  Mike: He started at Marvel originally, and now he's back at Marvel, but there was a long hiatus. Jessika: Ooh. I want to hear that arc. Absolutely.  Mike:  All right. Moving right along.  So as tempting as it is to just dive right [00:07:00] into U.S. 1 the comic and its strangeness, I don't think we can talk about it without covering some background info first. So, have you ever heard the term trucking culture before? Jessika: I've absolutely heard of trucking culture, but I'm not too familiar with the intricacies.  My uncle drove a truck for years, but I think he's retired at this point.  Mike: Okay. I think it's something that a lot of people aren't really aware of, or they hear about it and then they start making jokes. Like, I got some glimpses of it when one of my photography gigs have me living on a tour bus for a few months. So, we would visit a lot of legit truck stops in the middle of nowhere. And I'm not talking gas stations, I'm talking full rest stops where restaurants served truckers before other patrons,  the bathrooms had shower stalls and all of the stores felt like kind of miniature Walmarts. They were just massive. And they had anything that you could think of you might need on a long road trip. [00:08:00] It's this side that, if you live in an urban environment folks, aren't really going to see or understand, and it's the staggeringly huge thing that most people never even seem to think about. But I mean, trucking is this major part of the United States and its industry  as noted in this factoid from the American trucking associations, if you would be so kind. Jessika: Nearly every good consumed in the U S is put on a truck at some point. As a result, the trucking industry hauled 72.5% of all freight transported in the United States in 2019, equaling to 11.84 billion tons. The trucking industry was a $791.7 billion industry in that same year representing 80.4% of the nation's freight bill.  Mike: Yeah. It's I was actually, I was really surprised actually to see that it was that much. I assumed that trains [00:09:00] and shipping were at least a little bit bigger. Jessika: No, because we don't here's the problem is that because of the auto industry in the United States, we stifled the ability to make all the train tracks necessary, to get the things to all the places we need. And now it's horrendously expensive to go on a train. Yeah. I don't know that people know that about the United States. So for our international listeners: you can't take trains here, it's very expensive.  Mike: Yeah. First of all, there's no real national rail system. And, and second, the rail system that does exist is prohibitively expensive, unless you are a not far distance commuter.  Like I took Amtrak for a couple, for about a year traveling between Sacramento and San Francisco a couple of times a week. And it was great. It was less expensive to do that a couple of times a week than it was to drive down. But [00:10:00] yeah, it's prohibitively expensive for most people.  Jessika: Yeah. And there are some cities in the United States that do have a decent transportation system. Portland has a decent one in New York, obviously that there are other places to Chicago, yeah.  But I mean, for the most part across country, especially because we're such a large country,  and we are of course expected to share things. California has to share everything. Listen to me, I sound so greedy. Mike: I know. Yeah. What does it, we have the, I think it's like it's top five or top 10 economies in the world. Jessika: We're the top sixth economy in the world by ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, So if we just dumped off everyone else, the rest of the states would be screwed. Actually a few would hold their own, but those middlin' states. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Suffering.  Mike: Well, as big as it is, the trucking industry, as we know it, [00:11:00] isn't even a hundred years old. Uh, yeah, so really, trucks were first used extensively by the military in WWI, and then trucking became prominent in the 1930s because of the increased construction on paved roads. So, it didn't take long after that, before truckers became a part of American pop culture. They started having songs and movies about them. And as noted by Shane Hamilton in his book, Trucking Country: the Road to America's Walmart Economy, there was this mythology that almost lionized truckers.  Jessika: Hmm.  Mike: If you would, uh, do us all the favor of reading out the section that I found that describes it pretty well. Jessika: The image of the respectable trucker circulated outside the world of Hollywood in the 1950s. As truckers became known as the Knights of the Road for helping stranded motorists, and using their blinkers and [00:12:00] headlights as courtesy signals. This image was further reinforced by the standard driver's uniform of the era: trim, neat pants and button shirt, and the chauffeur's cap. The masculine mythologies of trucking moved increasingly into a wider cultural world in the 1950s and 1960s. As the image of the truck driving man was reflected back to truckers by movies and music.  Mike: Yeah. So the 1970s were when trucking hit, it's kind of Zenith point and pop culture. They wound up being presented as kind of this modern version of cowboys, you know, wandering nomads who rebelled against the oppressive rule of law while still operating under their own kind of honor code. There were a ton of movies and songs during this decade that romanticized the trucker life. And a lot of these have since faded into obscurity, but this was the period when we got that song Convoy by CW McCall, which also inspired a movie with a very young shirtless Kris Kristofferson, um, [00:13:00] uh, Smokey in the Bandit came out in 1977 and it was the number three grossing movie of the year behind Star Wars. And there's also a really bad Chuck Norris action Flint called Breaker Breaker. Like it was a moment in pop culture. Jessika: Are you really going to say that a Chuck Norris movie was bad? What if he's right behind you?  Mike: I mean, yeah. Jessika: It's always a threat. Don't don't deny it.  Mike: Man. Remember when we all used to like Chuck Norris and we thought he was cool before we went off the deep end and it turned out he's just the worst. Remember those days? Jessika: Oh no. We have a nefarious character, nefarious character alert.  Mike: Yeah. What a shock.  Jessika: Oh, not on our podcast.  Mike: I know. All right. Well, okay. So the [00:14:00] eighties, this all started to change in the eighties when truckers started being portrayed more villainously, or at least poorly in media, like Thelma and Louise, you've seen Thelma and Louise, right?  Jessika: Yeah.  Mike: Yeah. You remember how there's that gross trucker who keeps on harassing them. Jessika: Yes.  Mike: Yeah. And, the eighties, it was starting to decline, but it wasn't quite there yet. The nineties was when it really picked up and we'll discuss that in a little bit,  Jessika: Hmm.  Mike: But at the time that this comic project started, big rig truckers were still on the high side of public opinion. So we've talked in previous episodes about how Marvel wound up undergoing a commercial Renaissance in the early eighties, under the guidance of Jim Shooter. Particularly, you know, with Saturday morning cartoons and all that stuff.  Jessika: Mm.  Mike: One of the major sources of the success came in the form of toy companies, partnering with the publisher for licensed comic adaptations and arguably, the biggest example of this kind of success came from [00:15:00] partnerships with Hasbro when Marvel created the characters and lore for both Transformers in G.I. Joe. So U.S. 1 was a comic that came about from another partnership, but this one was with a different toy company. It was called Tyco Toys and Tyco wanted to do a licensed comic based on their U.S. 1 brand of slot truck toys.  Jessika: Oh, so this was all based on the Tyco truck, even. truck even.  Mike: Yes, it's a little bit different than the standard Tyco truck, and we'll talk about that in a second, but you know, Tyco probably doesn't sound familiar to people that are younger than us these days, but they were a company that originally made model trains for hobbyists. And then they started making slot car toys in the 1960s, which are the cars that you press the trigger and they go around a track and you can build out the track how you want. So, by the eighties, this brand was the one that was dominating that particular section of the market, the slot car toy section. [00:16:00] And at this point, they decided to create some slot truck toys. It was branded U.S. 1 Electric Trucking, and it launched in 1981. And it was based on the earlier racing sets, but it had a couple of unique features. You could drive the trucks in both forward and reverse, and you could also have the trucks pick up and deliver loads of, and this is the quote, action accessories with that direct interaction from the person operating it. And the tagline was “you control the action”. So I've got this commercial that I found on YouTube, because YouTube has everything and it's actually really cute. You want to give it a shot? Jessika: Sure thing. [00:17:00] Oh, this is really exciting. Oh! That's actually a really fun.  Mike: Right. Jessika: No, that's super freaking fun. That is that's super fun.  Mike: Yeah. So Tyco came to Marvel and they said that they were interested in having a comic adaptation done. And, the comic wound up being written by Al Milgrim, who's actually, he's a pretty interesting dude in comic history, he worked as a writer, and editor and inker, and a penciler during his career. And he was particularly known for this long tenure editing Marvel Fanfare, where I think he edited it for like a decade.  Also the real reason that he's an industry legend though, is because Marvel actually fired him after he hid some messaging in a panel background where he was badmouthing Marvel Harris. The then recently departed editor in chief of Marvel. [00:18:00] Jessika: Oh, damn. That's cold.  Mike: Yeah, it was actually really funny and you can look it up, where he basically wrote some messages vertically on the spines of books in the background of a Spider-Man comic. And there's some weird happenstances about how, I think the editor caught them and had the wording removed. And then, through some error, that image got used instead and went to publish and yeah, it's, it's kind of amazing, but he was actually a full-time employee, which was really rare for one of the people who was actually creating the comics. And so it's this, you know, he was, he was actually fired by Marvel. Jessika: Wow. yeah, From what I've read, most of them were freelance, so that's actually super interesting.  Mike: Yeah.  It's an interesting story. And it's one I would love to talk to him about someday, which we'll discuss that later. I legit love that story about how Milgrim got, let go, because it's totally a move that I would pull. [00:19:00] And then the series was originally drawn by this other long-time Marvel artists named Herb Trimp.  he'd made a name for himself with the Incredible Hulk, and also he is known as the first artist to actually draw Wolverine for publication because he drew the, he drew the issue. John Romita came up with the character design in sketch, but he was the one who actually first drew him in a comic, which was cool. Jessika: That's super neat. Mike: Yeah. And so Trimp also, wasn't a stranger to projects like this. He had recently worked on G.I. Joe. He wound up penciling the first two issues, and then Frank Springer came in to finish out the series, and Springer was another reliable artist from Marvel and he had also been involved with G.I. Joe and Transformers. Milgrim actually has an essay at the end of the first issue called In the Driver's Seat, where he talks about the comics. And it starts with how Tyco asks for the common treatment and then goes into his first meeting with Jim Shooter about the projects. And I kind of love this description where he talks about how he wasn't [00:20:00] really sold on the idea originally. Jessika: Frankly, I wasn't sure. Nobody had ever done anything with trucks and comics before. When I voiced the concern to Jim, it was as if I had slapped his face and challenged him to a duel. Exactly! He exploded. Nobody has done it before. Maybe nobody thinks it can be done. There may even be a lot of resistance to the idea, but we can do it and do it well. I got caught up in the challenge, Jim and I did not fight a duel to the death, lucky for him. Instead, we began discussing the idea of a truck driving hero. We talked about the romance of driving a truck, the dedication of those self-sufficient loners who drive the big rigs, we got swept up in the notion, began to solidify the concept of a trucker with a mission, a goal, a quest.  Mike: Yeah, it's kind of charming to hear how enamored he got with the project during that first meeting. [00:21:00]  The essay also mentions that Marvel's animation division, which as we've also covered in that episode about Saturday morning cartoons, was a thing that they had, was working on what sounded like a TV show pitch. And there might be some toys and animated series in the future, but spoiler, that never happened. I'm curious, how would you summarize this comic series? Jessika: A lot happened. So a lot happened. This series was wild from start to finish. It starts with introductions to Ulysses Solomon Archer, or USA, and his brother, Jefferson, or Jeff after their parents who are truck drivers die in an accident, US and Jeff are raised by Wide Load,. Who's a woman, and Poppa, who are the owners of a truck stop named Shortstop. Mike: We need to stop this for a second. You need to, you need to acknowledge them by their full [00:22:00] names. Jessika: I'm sorry. Remind me what Poppa's name is.  Mike: Poppa Wheelie, and it's Wide Load Annie, and Wide Load Annie. Jessika: Okay. Let me re say that. Okay. Excuse me.  Mike: I'm sorry. It's just it's too good. Jessika: No, you're right. I'm not even going to cut any of this. I'm just going to leave it. No, you're right. I couldn't, you know what, honestly, because I couldn't remember what their full names were when I was writing this out. I was like, this is good enough. So, so yeah, they're the owners of a truck stop called Shortstop and US is this All-American blonde haired, white boy, who has it all going for him. He's literally good at everything without trying. And he's encouraged by Wide Load Annie and Poppa Wheelie to get a college education, even though he knows he wants to be a truck driver, just like his folks, and his adoptive parents and his big brother, Jeff, who he idolizes. [00:23:00] And Jeff is your classic, dark haired boy who just can't seem to keep up with US's successes, and also becomes a truck driver obviously, and seemingly mostly as a backup profession, which is kind of interesting how they they're both like encouraging and disparaging of truck drivers inparts. And I'm like, it's kind of strange. There's a give and take. I don't know what it is. I don't know if you felt that too.  Mike: It's the whole thing of, he is not good. Jefferson is billed as being not good at school, but US is. And so they're like, no, you have to go to college, you have to make something of yourself. And Poppa and Wide Load and Jefferson all support him and send him to school. And Jefferson is doing it via job in trucking. Yeah, they talked about how expensive colleges in those days. And I'm like, my dudes, it's 1980. You could literally go to college on a minimum wage job. And it talks about how also, I think he had scholarships and. Jessika: Cause he was good at [00:24:00] everything.  Mike: and he double majored in computer  Jessika: Electronics. Yeah, exactly.  Mike: Electrical engineering, I think. And then, and then. Jessika: Computer sciences. Yeah. Uh, Yeah. it was a whole thing.  Mike: It's a thing. Exactly. Jessika: So during a drive with a young US, Jeff's big rig is run off the road by a devilish figure he calls the high women just prior to driving off a cliff. The truck explodes and Us is gravely injured in such a way that he evidently needs a skull replacement? Mike: You know? Sure.  Jessika: Have you heard of that? Mike: No. Jessika: Usually with a skull replacement, you're going to be a lot worse off than just, like, gonna in a pop awake in a couple minutes after you put something metal back on there,  Mike: Yeah. It's, uh, I believe they worded it as, oh, is this experimental treatment and I'm like, what? Okay.  Jessika: Which already was so [00:25:00] sus.  Mike: Yeah. And they, basically replace his skull with it's, in this comic, it's implied that it's like just the top part of his skull that like, you know, protects the brain. Later comic appearances, it is very strongly hinted that they basically do a brain transplant into, or, that they basically just give him a metal skull of some kind. It's like, there's no bone to be seen, but. Jessika: Like a new head completely? Lord. Goodness gracious. Well, so after that, he vows to find his brother who he's like, I couldn't find him in the crash. It's like, bro, like you kind of couldn't look for him. You had a concussion, like you're not an expert in finding bodies in an explosion. I don't know how he just definitively was like, well I guess everybody else told him that, that he, the body was never found or whatever, [00:26:00] but. Mike: Yeah, that's true. Jessika: Yeah. So he decided he's gonna find his brother as well as the mysterious Highwayman that he yelled about right before. And he quickly finds out that he can pick up CB radio waves from his fancy new skullcap, and somehow has truck becomes self-aware and he can communicate directly with it? And it's making its own decisions. Inexplicably. It's not well explained, once again.  Mike: It's so truck originally, he builds a remote control into like a half dollar, so he can drive it really like, like a precision driver with his remote. But then later on, I think there's, it was like some kind of like a lightning strike or something or electrical overload that then allowed him to directly interface with the truck. And then the truck is also self-aware at times where it's providing narration for an entire issue. And we'll talk about that, too. Jessika: Yeah, that's what I was going to say. [00:27:00] It was the weirdest thing.  I was kinda on board with most of it. And then the truck was having its own inner monologue. And I was like, wait a second, guys.  Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Oh, goodness gracious. And then there's also a spy planted within the truck stop in the form of a mind-controlled waitress, Mary McGrill, which their names, all their names.  Mike: The alliteration and stuff and puns. It's great. Jessika: Exactly. It's so cheese. I love it. And she uses this wacky mind control whip, and there's drama about the truck stop being foreclosed upon and being sold to make condos. And, and then DUN DUN DUN! Jeff turns out to be the Highwayman! And they are aliens looking for the best person, read trucker, you know, of course on earth to be some kind of space ambassador? Mike: Yeah. It's not well explained.  [00:28:00] I think it had something to do with they wanted people to pilot their star ships,  because they were like accustomed to like long bouts of being on their own and stuff.  Jessika: Yeah, it was, it was a whole thing too. And then apparently all humans look alike to the aliens.  Mike: I thought that was funny as fuck. That was.  Jessika: I thought that was hysterical  Mike: Because the aliens are so weird looking. Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. And so apparently they had been scoping US this whole time, cause he's like the golden child, but then they accidentally swooped Jeff instead, because they made a mistake and Jeff was just like, yeah, I'm going to go with it. So once they figured out their mistake, they felt really bad about wasting all of their time and effort on this, this putz. And so then they of course had to have a race to make sure who was the best one to be the space ambassador, whether it was [00:29:00] going to be US, who dun dun dun the aliens gave him the skullcap!  Mike: Yup.  Jessika: Or his brother who has been working with the alien tech and has, like, a time advantage and a training advantage. So it's of course, US wins. I mean, come on. So of course they just get sent up into space? And he gets to take the whole truck stop with him? And all of the people? Mike: Yup. Jessika: It's the Rapture? Mike: Yeah. And then the greedy bankers who are left behind, who are going to take the property that the truck stopped. I think they, they wind up getting dosed with some kind of radiation. Jessika: Yeah, the, they were going to build condos on the land and then it ended up being radioactive. And so the buyer ended up pulling out. Mike: Yeah, Jessika: Like right there, because that's how that works.  Mike: Yeah. Jessika: So yeah.  The end. That's it. Mike: Oh yeah. [00:30:00] And then the other thing is that for the first half of the series,  we are given to believe that the Highwayman is demonic in origin. Like they do a whole thing where,  he's got his own mind-controlled, big rig that runs them off the road or whatever. And, he's surrounded by devils when he's looking down triumphantly on the wreckage and there's, you know, it's the mythology of the open road where they're like, oh, he was this trucker who, apparently, couldn't keep up anymore with the younger truckers and their newer rigs. So we cut a deal with the devil and it was, I actually kind of dug it. It was ridiculous. And over the top, but it was great. And then it turns out it was just, I don't know, some disguise that he put on just the fuck with everybody. Jessika: He did the Scooby Doo unveiling where he pulled a rubber mask off of his face, and I about lost my mind.  Mike: Yeah. Okay. What was your overall impression of the series? Jessika: It was a fucking [00:31:00] wild ride, but it was fun. I liked that it was so random at times. It legitimately kept me guessing the whole way. The topics though, they were not subtle with the overbearing American patriotism and the overt disdain for neo-Nazis, which obviously I'm behind. Mike: I mean, whatever that was fine. Jessika: that was great when they dropped the, the neo-Nazis in Televiv. Mike: Oh God. Well, and the funniest part was they were, so  one of the  antagonists for us is Baron VonBlimp, who pilot, he, he looks like, he looks like kind of this weird aristocrat from like turn of the century, Europe. No, he's I think he even has a monocle. And then towards the end, when he shows up in his blimp, he drops out and he's got a bunch of Nazis with them and, you know, they've got the swastika, armbands and everything, and then it's revealed they're not actually Nazis and he's not even German. He just liked how the uniforms looked. And then the aliens are like, whatever we're [00:32:00] done with this. And they literally hand wave them away into Israel. And I was like, that's, that's just magnificent. Just chef's kiss. Jessika: Oh, yeah, I did actually really like that. So, so what about you? What did you think about this?  Mike: I mean, it's one of those comics where I never expected to enjoy it as much as I did, but there's something so silly and pure about this entire story. It feels like the kind of thing that a five or six year old kid would come up with while playing with their trucks, you know, like monsters and aliens and races against air ships. And then you hand wave away things when you want to change the narrative. And it  somehow kind of works actually. Like, I don't know how, but it kind of does.  I really loved, like I talked about, I love Baron VonBlimp, I thought he was just so weird.  And then I liked how the Shortstop is essentially the Mos Eisley Cantina, but it's got better coffee. [00:33:00] And it seemed like every time that we first visited the place, someone was getting thrown through a window, which was of. Jessika: Absolutely. There was always a fight scene. It reminded me of a saloon, like one of those old-timey saloons with  people getting thrown out double doors and things crashing.  Mike: Yeah. And then we talked about how US' his truck was self-aware, but, but I love the bit where Papa refers to it as a she and the trucks that there and says I'm not ashamed, but I'm secure enough in myself. That it's fine.  Jessika: Yeah.  Mike: I was like, that is weirdly topical through a 2021 lens, but this is also really good. And also every cover to this comic, it is a work of art.  Like, like the styles vary, but they're really cool looking and they're just really weird. Yeah, I mean, it was just, it was a blast. Were there any highlights for you, or any lowlights. Jessika: So I have to say my eyes just about rolled out of my [00:34:00] head, where the aliens showed up and needed chicken parts to make their ship work correctly. And the rivalry between the two female characters was pretty contrived. Mike:  I did like how  they were trying to sit there and spin it so you didn't know who was the sleeper agent? I thought that was kind of cool, but yeah, they were, you know, they were fighting over Us and that was dumb, but it's also, you know, it's the 1980s. What are you gonna do? Jessika: Exactly. Had to have some sort of, you know, forced love triangle of some nature. But I have to say I was oddly charmed at the editing notes from Ralph Macchio, all people? Mike: Uh, editor with the same name as the, yeah. Jessika: Oh, okay. All right. Wow. Goodness gracious. Cause I was like giving that guy a lot of credit.   Mike: Nope. Jessika: I did like that though. I did like the little comments, the little editing notes,  it was a little much [00:35:00] sometimes, but I love that he was throwing shade at the writers sometimes, or reminding the reader about the previous events or where you could read about them. And it was interesting how in depth they recapped each issue, but it must've been nice for the readers who weren't starting from issue one.  Mike: Yeah. And especially because it was a maxi series and then it started in mid 1983 and then it ended in late 1984. So, it went from monthly to bi-monthly, and it was not a big name comic in the first place, so it makes sense that they would sit there and provide that background for readers. And I also really appreciated that it was all the same characters over and over again, so that it wasn't doing anything crazy new, but at the same time, each of those issues you could pick up except for the last couple. Pretty easy to understand. Jessika: Yeah. I would say so.  Mike:  I mentioned earlier that  this was another licensed comic that was designed to help promote a toy line, but as [00:36:00] opposed to G.I. Joe and transformers, though, this wasn't nearly as successful. Comichron, which is a site that tracks sales data for comics doesn't have 1983 data in place yet, but the site comic book, historians has this incredible online community. And I actually wound up posting there and asking if anyone had any insight into how the comics sold and Al Milgrim himself wound up chiming in if you would be so kind.  Jessika: I'm sorry, what? That's cool as heck.  Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: Wow.  Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: Okay. Well, I got a, sorry, I got a little nervous. Oh sure. I think the first issue sold around 160,000 or so, not great for a first issue, but respectable. Marvel only contracted with the toy company to do a dozen issues. I'm sure the sales went downhill from there. Still think the book was some good silly fun though (I may be [00:37:00] biased).  Mike: Yeah, I was really stunned. This, the comic book historian group actually has a lot of amazing industry professionals involved in it. I've seen writers like Mark Wade chime in, the owner of Mile High Comics routinely posts about comic book history as well. They have a podcast and a YouTube series. They did a long series of interviews with Jim Shooter that was really cool, which actually, I think did a lot to kind of redeem his character a bit because a lot of people viewed him as a villain in the comic book and yeah.  Jessika: Oh.  Mike: But yeah, Milgrim was super cool to chime in on that. And I wound up talking to him briefly afterwards and he said, he'd be open to doing an interview with us at some point. So maybe there'll be a  Part two to the U.S. 1 episode.  Jessika: That's exciting.  Mike: Yeah.  The comic series ran for roughly a year and a half and it ended in October of 1984, the U.S. 1 toys were moderately more successful, they lasted until 86. And then after this trucking and pop culture continued to undergo this shift. [00:38:00] And it feels like the nineties, as I said, was when things really started to significantly change. We talked about Thelma and Louise. There was that Kurt Russell trucking movie called Breakdown, where the villains were truckers. And then. I mean, it's kind of still how they're portrayed these days  in media. I really don't think it helps that the FBI released this five-year study back in 2009 that linked long haul trucking to serial killers. Jessika: Oh. Wow.  Mike: Yeah. And it's one of those things where it's not saying all long haul truckers are a majority of long haul, truckers are serial killers, but that there are a number of serial killers who are long haul truckers. And it makes sense because there's a lack of supervision. And also you can pick someone up in one state, killed them in another and then drop them off, dump the body in a third. And also a lot of times the people that they pick up are people that no one really misses. Jessika: Yeah. Yeah.  Mike: On that high note.  [00:39:00] The funny thing is that this isn't where Ulysses S. Archer's story ends. So even though this was a licensed comic book for a company that was eventually acquired by Mattel,  it seems like Marvel still owns the rights to the characters themselves because Ulysses pops up every now and then he's usually like the supporting character but sometimes it's as to this one-off deep cut. So he appeared in a couple of issues of John Burns, Sensational She Hulk in the early nineties, he was supporting the She Hulk for a few issues. There was a brief cameo and the 2010 series new Avengers where he applied to be a babysitter for Luke Cage and Jessica Jones' daughter  Jessika: Oh, geez.  Mike: It was, it was actually pretty funny. He wound up helping out Rocket Raccoon in this backup story of a 2011 series called the Annihilaters, and then he also teamed up with Deadpool around the same time. And that's the issue where you see, it looks like he's actually got a fully replaced skull made out of metal. They, they, they do one of those like cross section cuts where you see [00:40:00] where you see underneath the scan, it looks like he's got just an all-metal skull. Jessika: Yeah.  Mike: Yeah. And then after that,  we haven't heard much about him in the Marvel Universe, but weirdly his brother Jefferson has appeared a bit too. So, he was listed as a character in the Dark Reign files, which was a who's who guide to various Marvel villains in 2009. And it actually retcon his story. Basically it claims that the highway man, after staying on earth wound up actually cutting a deal with Satan, in quotes, whoever that is. And then he wound up fighting against ghost writer. And then aside from the issue where Deadpool teamed up with his brother, he winds up fighting against Deadpool again in 2016 or so. Jessika: That's super random.  Mike: Yeah. And now we're in 2021 and it's been a few years since we've seen Ulysses and his friends show up. But I personally think that we're kind of overdue to have them come back like. Jessika: I [00:41:00] want to see Poppa Wheelie in something.  Mike: Right.  I would love to see him show up as a strong support character in one of those like heroes on the run stories where, whatever hero of the book is being pursued by,  the government or something like that. And then he basically winds up providing kind of a mobile base of operations or something like that. And then he helps them keep our heroes one step ahead of the law.  Jessika: Yeah. Like he floats down on the Shortstop, like space station or something. Yeah. That'd be cool as heck.  Mike: Yeah or something,  I mean, there's so many different ways you could go, you could have him come back to earth and he just winds up working as a trucker again, because that's what he really likes. He misses driving through the natural beauty of America, something like that. You know, I think there could be some really fun opportunities.  And I really hope that Marvel brings him back at some point, because he was just this really fun, weird character. And it was strange and it was silly, but it was also very sweet. So that is U.S. 1 in a nutshell, [00:42:00] what are your final thoughts on it? Jessika: I think it was a lot of fun. It was bananagrams, you know, all the way to the top, but  it was fun.  Mike: Yeah.   All right. It is now time for that part of the episode called Brain Wrinkles, which is when we like to discuss things that are Comics related that are just sticking in our head and won't get out. Do you mind if I go first?  Jessika: Oh, please do.  Mike: All right. I was going to talk about the recent news that Marvel's hired someone to direct Blade, but I'm actually way more excited about something else. There's this podcast called Comic Book Couples Counseling, which is this absolutely rad show. It's hosted by married couple, Brad and Lisa Gullickson, and they take relationships between comics characters, and then examine them through the lens of different self-help love gurus.   So they've been super supportive of us so far. Like they've actually retweeted [00:43:00] our stuff and their show is really fun. But, I was recently reading through a whole bunch of nineties Valiant comics that I managed to pick up from the Bat Cave in Santa Rosa when they have this blind box sale. And one of the series contained in these boxes is called the Second Life of Dr. Mirage. And it's one of the series that I collected when I was a kid it's about this married couple named Hwen Fong and Carmen Ruiz, who were his pair of psychologists. Hwen is this kind of like nebbish little guy, and Carmen is this bruiser, like, she's the bad-ass of the pair. There's this early scene where she winds up saving him from zombies because she's a master of Kappa Wera, which is, you know, it makes sense, cause she's from Brazil. And then in the first issue, they run a foul of Valiance resident necromancer named master dark and he kills Hwen, but then Hwen comes back as a ghost, sort of a ghost kind of a thing. Jessika: Hm.  Mike: But I was reading through the series and I was really struck how this was a superhero comic that actually focused on an [00:44:00] adult relationship and relationship issues that come along with the supernatural stuff, like early on Carmen has a pretty heartfelt talk with her undead husband about how difficult it is for her emotionally, because he's still with her, but she can't touch him. Jessika: Oh my god.  Mike: And anyway, so I wound up tweeting about it, cause I thought the couple would make a good topic for Comic Book Couples Counseling, and they wound up picking up all the back issues like that day. And they're going to do an episode about the characters. So I'm super excited to listen to this.  Jessika: Oh, that's super fun.  Mike: Yeah, Jessika: See, and I was going to talk about the same thing.  Mike: I'm sorry, I stole your thunder. Jessika: No, that's okay though. They're so good. So I'm that person who has to start from episode one, because. Mike: They've got a lot of episodes too. Jessika: They do they're back to 2018. So  I just went all the way back and it's so [00:45:00] fun though. I like to get that rapport. I like to make sure I have that parasocial, you know, relationship really hooked in there with all the podcasts I listen to. So, the first section that they did cause they always do kind of like a month at a time, focused on one set of characters. The first one was the relationship facets of Jean Gray and Scott Summers from the X-Men. And I love the X-Men. So, it was really neat to hear all of the different ways that they had a relationship and then they were comparing it to a book about relationships. It was very interesting. It was very topical, and I liked that they also are very sweet and introspective about their own relationship. Mike: It's really lovely.  Jessika: Yeah. And like what they can do, what they can take out of it to apply to their own marriage, which is it's so sweet. So thank you guys. You guys are great.  Mike: Yeah. Comic Book Couples Counseling, Brad and [00:46:00] Lisa, absolutely friends of the podcast.  Jessika: Absolutely.  Mike: And you know, if they ever want to come on here, they are more than welcome and we will talk about whatever they want to talk about.  Jessika: Open invitation. I'll even read a I'll even. I'm not in a couple, but I'll read a self-help book. Like if that's what it takes.  Mike:  All right. I think that's all from us. we'll be back in two weeks and until then, we'll see you in the stacks.  Thanks for listening to Ten Cent Takes. Accessibility is important to us, so text transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our website.  This episode was hosted by Jessika Frazer and Mike Thompson written by Mike Thompson and edited by Jessika Frazer. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson- Johnson of Bay Area Sound, our credits and transition music is Pursuit of Life by Evan MacDonald, and was purchased with a standard license from PremiumBeat. Our banner graphics were [00:47:00] designed by Sarah Frank. You can find on Instagram as @lookmomdraws. Jessika: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions or tell us about how we got something wrong, please head over to tencenttakes.com, or shoot an email to tencenttakes@gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter, the official podcast account is @tencenttakes. Jessika is @jessikawitha, and Jessika is spelled with a K, and Mike is @vansau, V A N S A U. Mike: If you'd like to support us, be sure to download, rate and review wherever you listen. Jessika: Stay safe out there.  Mike: And support your local comic shop.

Hey, there, fellow heroes in a half-shell! This week, we're examining how the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles evolved across approximately 30 years and four comic book series.  In this episode, we're looking at:  The original Mirage series TMNT Adventures from Archie Comics The short-lived Image Comics series from the 90s IDW's 2011 series ----more---- Episode 11 Transcript [00:00:00] Jessika: You're going to cut all this bullshit,  Mike: Oh yeah, of course.  Jessika: Okay.   Hello? Hello. Welcome to Ten Cent Takes, the podcast where we share hot and delicious slices of comic-flavored facts, one issue at a time. My name is Jessika Frazer and I am joined by my co-host, the man of mystery himself, Mike Thompson. Mike: Ooh. I like that.  Jessika: You're mysterious.  Mike: I'm really not.  Jessika: You're just a voice to these people.  Mike: That is true.  Jessika: Let this parasocial relationship happen for them. Mike: Fine.  Jessika: So, Mike, do you want to tell our listeners what this here podcast is about? Mike: This is payback for last week, isn't it?  Jessika: Certainly is. Mike: Yeah, [00:01:00] fine. So here at Ten Cent Takes, we like to talk about comics and we like to talk about how they are interwoven with history and pop culture. Sometimes our conversations are weird, sometimes they're funny, but hopefully they are always interesting. Come for the deep dives, stay for the swearing.  Jessika: Fuck yes. Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: Well, today we're going to be taking a deep dive into the comics of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, how they got their start, the people and the publishers involved, and some information and opinions about the different iterations of this beloved comic.  But before we go any further, we have corrections and announcements. Mike, you want to start us off? Mike: Yeah, sorry. So I realized after the episode about the ninja turtles movies that I said, Howard the Duck was done by George Lucas and Steven Spielberg, but it was George Lucas. Spielberg and Lucas worked together on some other major projects in the eighties, but not Howard the [00:02:00] Duck. You will be pleased to know that I was correct about Corey Feldman being a generally terrible human being. So, no apologies there.  Also, we are going to continue our giveaway raffle in exchange for sending us a screenshot of a review that you leave for us on Apple podcasts. It doesn't matter what the rating is, we love five stars, but we'll take anything. We will enter you into a drawing for a $25 gift certificate to NewKadia. If you can get your review in before August 5th, that will be roughly a month from when we first announced the giveaway, that would be great. And then we will contact the winner directly. just take a screenshot of your review, email it to tencenttakes@gmail.com, and that's all you have to do.  Jessika: Go get you some prizes. Mike: Yeah.   Jessika: All right. So good news, everyone. We now have both an Instagram and a Facebook account, so we will be posting episode updates and potentially bonus posts related to the [00:03:00] episode. So feel free to follow us. We're at Ten Cent Takes at both of those places. All right. So, Mike, do you want to mosey along to one cool thing that you have read or watched lately? Mike: Yeah, I guess I can be tempted to go that route. so I've been actually reading a lot of cool stuff lately. I actually just did a big run to Brian's Comics in Petaluma, and, and had a huge haul of stuff on my pull list, cause it had been about a month since I was there and I'd added some stuff to it. But, something I picked up just this week from Brian's is this new book called the Nice House on the Lake. It's published by DC under its mature Black Label imprint. And it's written by James Tynion IV  who he's also writing Something is Killing the Children, which I've at least told you about in the past. I don't know if I've talked about it here.  Jessika:  I've started reading it.  Mike: Yeah. I mean it's - Something is Killing the Children is also excellent. And this is his new [00:04:00] series and he's doing it with  Alvaro Martinez Bueno, who has recently been doing art for Detective Comics. And it's hard to describe without spoiling it, but the gist is that there is a group of people who are invited for a nice weekend at this mutual friends, insanely luxurious lake house. And it feels like we're kind of getting set up for a murder mystery, and then things take a turn for the terrifying in a really unexpected way. And I'm really excited to see where the series is gonna to go. But if you haven't read it, pick it up. It's great.  Jessika: You always tell me about the best horror comics, which is really cool. Mike: I mean, a lot of them come from Brian, to be honest.  Jessika: Thanks, Brian. Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: Absolutely friend of the podcast, Brian. Mike: Yeah, no. Brian is fantastic.  If you were in the North Bay, highly recommend going to check out Brian's Comics in Petaluma, it's an awesome little shop. And Brian is one of the friendliest people you could ever hope to meet.  Jessika: it's so cute. You have to go underground [00:05:00] kind of you like walk downstairs. It's not really underground, but it feels like it. Mike: Also, he has a really sweet dog who hangs out in the shop too.  Jessika: Yes. Mike: So that's what I've been consuming lately. What about you?  Jessika: I myself have been on quite the half-shell recently and just deep diving into turtles. And I have found the- I can barely contain my excitement. I have found the absolute best thing. Listen up turtle fans! There's a 24-hour Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle network that plays nothing but the animated into turtle series. Like, all of the animated series, even the old school ones. it's called Totally Turtles. I found it free with ads through Pluto TV on my fire stick. This is not an advertisement, I'm just really excited and I wanted to share it with everyone. And I'm hoping that they're turtle enthusiasts listening. It's such a blast. And despite the obnoxious children's commercials, which are horrendous and on repeat by the way, I feel so sorry for all of you parents.  Mike: So wait, so is this, can you select the episodes you want to watch or is it like [00:06:00] an actual TV channel?  Jessika: No, it's like an actual TV channel. I know. So it is streaming. They kind of do this weird marathon thing where they play back like a block of one show. So I haven't seen the OG comic come up yet, but I've seen like all of the other ones, so it's pretty neat.  Mike: I mean, there've been so many shows over the years.  I can only imagine how much content there is for them to broadcast.  Jessika: Yeah. They have like a whole like montage in there of all the different ones. And I was like, oh, oh, look at all these shows, all these turtle shows.  Mike: Yeah. I'll have to check that out. I, I keep meaning to rewatch the original animated movie mini series, whatever it was that they did for that led into the cartoon.  Jessika: Yeah, we used to have some movie that was probably  some merchandising schwag from some company, but it was like a pizza monster that they were fighting. Mike: That sounds really familiar, but I'm not sure. Jessika: And on VHS  Mike: Why. [00:07:00] Yeah. All right.  Jessika: It's like a yellow case. Yeah. I'm just saying I can see it.  So. So today we're going to be discussing the four main volumes of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Comics. But before we get into it, I want to call out my resources, cause I had quite a few again for this episode, I'm sure you're sensing a theme here with me and research. So we have the Definitive History of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle documentary, turtlepediafandom.com, which is my best friend, Kevin Eastman's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Artobiography. See what he did there.  Mike: Yeah. I dig it. Jessika: Which that book, by the way, if you're a fan, Tom told me about this book, Tom Belland told me about this book and it is so good. And it goes through the first eight issues of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and it's by Kevin Eastman, so it talks about the process of it and this. Mockups sketches that they [00:08:00] did, like actual sketches from the comic. It's just, it's really neat and lots of little details about how they were making it and stuff. So, back to my resource, I just got so excited about that. I read an article from Indiana University Bloomington's E. Lingle Craig Preservation Lab Blog, and a couple episodes of the Ninja Turtle Power Hour podcast, which is really fun.  Mike: Yeah, that show's great.  Jessika: Yeah. Got a couple of tidbits from them. So, yeah, thanks guys.  Mike: Friend of the podcast as well. They are, they have been very supportive of us in our early days.  Jessika: Yeah. So that's, that's really fun. Now we've previously talked about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles on this show. In episode one, Mike ran us briefly through the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles history, like the startup, and mention a couple of the iterations of the characters. And in episode nine, I covered the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles live action films from the nineties. If you haven't already, I highly recommend checking out those episodes for more [00:09:00] turtle-y goodness. During this episode, we'll be going further down the rabbit hole, looking at the history of the start of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Comics, more in depth and how they evolved over the years. As another little tease, we won't be covering the rest of the merchandising television or other related media in this episode, but stay tuned because I fully plan on doing an additional episode about the Turtles. While we'll be touching on the main volumes of comics from the overarching storyline, just know that there are micro issues and single character adventures along with a whole slew of other comics, crossovers, and pot lines that I simply don't have time to get into today, but just know that they are out there. And, if enough of you ask really, really nicely, maybe I'll cover some of those issues in a future episode. You won't have to ask very hard. Mike: You really won't.  Jessika: You won't. Mike: I don't think you guys understand how [00:10:00] excited Jessika was about this episode.  Jessika: excited. Like it will, he, it will show in my voice. My face is bright red, by the way, I am Scotch-Irish, my face is showing it. All right. before we get too solidly into our main. Mike, which of the Ninja Turtles is your favorite. And has that favorite changed at all over the years as you grew up? Mike: I think that all six year olds identify with Michelangelo when they first get into the Turtles, and I certainly was no exception. I've bounced around since. I think I'm probably closest to Rafael these days, mainly because I nurse a grudge like nobody's business.  Jessika: Oh, is Raphael petty? Mike: I'd like to think he is, He strikes me as the guy who would absolutely go and troll white supremacists on Facebook these days.  Jessika: I don't know anyone like that. Mike: No. [00:11:00] No.  Jessika: Oh, my goodness. Mike: Well, how about you? Which one did you identify with?  Jessika: Well, I also really liked Michelangelo. I mean, he was the party dude after all, and he's still pretty solidly my favorite is I can absolutely relate to being a huge ham. Hi, everyone. But I have such a greater appreciation for Donatello these days, because he really is the brains of the operation. And should he be sorted into a Hogwarts house, he would definitely be with me and Ravenclaw. Mike: Which turtle would be sorted into Hufflepuff. Do you think?  Jessika: Hufflepuff. I want to say that Michelangelo would be a Hufflepuff, cause he just he's just like so accepting of everyone. Mike: Yeah, I guess, Yeah. I guess Michelangelo would be a Hufflepuff. Leo would be a Griffindor. I don't think any of them would be Slytherin, so I think Raphael would also be Griffindor. Jessika: Not any of them probably, unless he was like, [00:12:00] Hmm, what if he was a little evil? He might be a Slytherin. Mike: Maybe. I don't know. Jessika: Because Slytherins don't have to be evil. I think they get a bad rap.  Mike: It's like ambitious or something like that.  Jessika: Yeah. I don't know. Raphael, Raphael might be ambitious. Mike: I mean, the first time that you met me and Sarah, Sarah had on a Slotherin t-shirt and I had on my Hufflepunk jacket.  Jessika: I had huge appreciation for both of those things. So. And I have to say too, that some of the more recent TV series have portrayed him in an even nerdier way, like Donatello, I mean. That I connect with even more, which is really fun. And, that's what I like best about these characters is that they really do have different relatable characteristics that makes their storylines just that much more compelling to a diverse audience, in my opinion. Mike: Yeah. 100%. Jessika: So, as Mike mentioned, in our first episode, the series was started by Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird. Throughout high school, Eastman had been trying somewhat unsuccessfully to [00:13:00] break into the indie comics market, and had had several of his proposals turned down before being picked up by a small publishing company, Clay Geerd's Comix Wave while he was still in high school.  While he was still in high school, let me reiterate. After graduating, he moved to Portland, Maine to go to art school and founded a comic magazine called Scat with another person. After having more of his art rejected by local publishing company. One of the people at the company told him about Peter Laird with the belief that they had a lot in common. And indeed they did. They had very similar interests, shared a love of creating and of comic artist, Jack Kirby, and immediately started doing short stories together, each bringing different strengths and new ideas to their collective works. In fact, Jack Kirby would also be a future style inspiration for the turtles Comics. Interesting, huh? Mike: Yeah. That actually checks out based on how bombastic the [00:14:00] turtles series became because Kirby's art, I mean, Kirby was such an iconic artists that there's this whole style of. It's like an energy explosion, it's called the Kirby crackle, And it's those, those circles within energy beams that now it's just kind of a thing that you see in comics a lot of the time.  Jessika: Oh, that's interesting. Mike: And he also had that very, very sharp edged geometric shape to all of his drawings as well.  Jessika: Yeah. Oh wow. Mike: So yeah.  Jessika: So this friendship and interest in the creation of comics led them to form MiragevStudios, which was named after the idea that their quote unquote studio was just Laird's living room. So it was really a play on their lack of having a physical studio space.  Their goal was to be able to make their living doing the thing that they loved best, because at this point, making comics was still very much a side hobby while they both still worked full-time, Eastman stating that he had been cooking lobsters in Amherst to get by. One of their earliest comic [00:15:00] characters was Fugitoid, whom they would fold into the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles storyline later down the line. Mike: That was the time-traveling robot, right?  Jessika: Yes.  Mike: I remember him. I had his action figure.  Jessika: That's cool. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were conceived during what is described as a casual night of brainstorming Eastman drew a ninja turtle, finding the idea of such a clunky and notoriously slow creature being a ninja, really fun. He thought to himself: Okay. So what if Bruce Lee was an animal? What's the stupidest animal Bruce Lee could be? And he's like, a turtle. Mike: Yeah, that checks out. So this was what, like the mid-eighties? Jessika: Yeah, they drew this in '83. Mike: I mean, martial arts and ninjas were such a thing in pop culture back then, too.  Jessika: They were. Mike: I just, I remember Chuck Norris had a really terrible ninja movie or two around then as well. And I just remember the eighties [00:16:00] and the early nineties still having this fascination.  Jessika: that was actually part of why they drew the turtles. Mike: Ah. Jessika: Was, it was a play on the fact that it was, it was a parody. It was a parody on the fact that so many people were doing ninja movies and a few other aspects were also parody, but we'll, we'll get into those later. Very astute, Mike. So, Laird drew up his own rendition after Eastman first drew up that first stupid looking turtle. Right. It wasn't even super looking, it was really cool. And with Eastman then drawing four turtles, all with different weapons and he wrote Ninja Turtles over the top. And Laird was like, you know what? Nah. And he added Teenage Mutant to the top of the ninja turtles. So they each had a hand in making the whole collective thing.  Mike: That's great.  Jessika: Yeah. And  the sketches together. You can see where both of their ideas formed the larger idea, which is super neat.  Mike: Mhmm, [00:17:00]  Jessika: So Mike, can you read this next section for me? It's an excerpt from Eastman's Artobiography regarding the sales of the first issue of the teenage mutant ninja turtles. Mike: Absolutely. Tired of rejection letters and inspired by the newest self-publishing movement, especially Davidson Cerberus comic, we pooled our money and borrowed some more from my uncle Quintin to come up with enough to print 3000 black and white comics we were sure would never sell. May 5th, 1984 we premiered the first issue at a local comic book convention. It was incredibly exciting, but I was back cooking lobsters in June. In early 1985, the sales for book two exceeded 15,000 copies. And by mid 1986, Turtles book number eight shipped more than 125,000 copies. I was drawing comics all day and supporting myself, the dream had come true.  Jessika: That's so cool. Mike: That's awesome.  Jessika: One of the things that they budgeted for were special drawing boards, which would update the black and white [00:18:00] comic to include shades of gray. This board is called Duoshade by Graphix. And because I'm a little Donny in my approach to, well, everything, I had to know how this worked. So I did a little digging. The artists would do the initial drawing and pen out the lines on a special pretreated board, then would go in with a paint brush and brush over the areas with a special developer that would reveal either a light or a darker tone hatching or pixelated pattern, depending on the developer used. This added an extra pop of shadowing without the effort of physically cross-hatching everything by hand. And because it was hatching instead of solid color, like paint, this fit the style of many different types of hands. The way this worked is through of course, science! You see the hatch lines or pixels are preprinted onto the special board using a chemical like silver nitrate that was subsequently blanched with a substance like mercuric chloride [00:19:00] to make it invisible to the naked eye. And two other chemicals are used to either reveal hatch or crosshatch marks, basically. One of the chemicals reveals one hatch causing the lighter shade, and the other revealed the crosshatching that was darker. And there are other chemicals that could be used in place of the ones I mentioned, and they don't seem to advertise the specific recipe ingredients for the updated formula, unsurprisingly. But this technique was invented in 1929 and was in use until 2009 when it was considered obsolete in the face of digital art and technology. Mike: That's so cool. I had no idea that this was a thing.  Jessika: It's so neat. So, whenever you see like the pixelated comics and stuff, that's all that kind of board, I'm sure. Mike: That's a really slick, I mean it makes sense that it would be obsolete now because you can sit there and just do, you know, brushes and layer masks and things like that with comics, it's not that hard, but yeah, that's, wow.   Jessika: Science! Mike: That must've been such a time-saver for them.  Jessika: Oh yeah, [00:20:00] that definitely. They said literally it just took the stroke of a brush and you could give more depth and just shadowing to everything. Will you do me a favor and read this quote about this process that I found on the Indiana University Bloomington's E. Lingle Craig Preservation Lab Blog? Mike: Sure. This process is very far from magic, though it surely seem that way for artists. After dipping their brushes and clear liquid, the path of their brushstrokes immediately turned dark as it traveled across paper. The phenomenon was easy to overdo, leading to images with many toned areas that, when reproduced into small comics and magazine ads, turned out cluttered and unclear  artists, commended peers who knew when to stop.  Jessika: Yes. Gentle hand. And here, I'm going to send you a comparison. So, the top half of this, and we will post this on Instagram, the top half is just in inked, and the bottom half is the same couple of [00:21:00] frames that are also shaded with  the Duoshade graphics. Mike: Oh, wow. This is really slick.  Is this from the Artobiography? Jessika: Yeah, exactly. It's from the Artobiography. Mike: Okay. oh, okay. Yeah. So I recognize this, this is from the first issue of the original Mirage series.  Jessika: Sure is. Mike: And it's when they're in their rooftop battle with the Foot. And the original, like just kind of sketch or line art. It shows Donatello, and the rest of the turtles and a couple of panels getting into these battles and it's, it's fine. It's black and white. And then you look at the difference in terms of shading underneath this. And it's insane how much depth there is. Like they added entire skyline with this. It's crazy. It's also, I feel like it's a little bit over done on the bottom. Like with the shading like this, very clearly like the early days of the turtles, but it looks really cool, especially when you do the comparison.  Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. And I almost wonder how much, since they hadn't been producing very much,  I wonder how much they were using these boards, [00:22:00] know, beforehand. I wonder if this has maybe, like you said, the early days. Mike: I would be willing to bet that they were pretty new to this and, we're learning when to stop.  Jessika: Yeah. So, the turtles and their storyline were initially created as a parody, like we were talking about to some of the popular Comics of the time, especially Daredevil, with similarities and characters names, such as the Foot clan when Daredevil included the Hand.  Mike: Right.  Jessika: And in some of the situations, such as the highly unlikely way that the canister containing a radioactive solution flew out of the back of a truck, striking someone in the head hitting and subsequently breaking a glass aquarium containing four baby turtles who fall directly into a manhole where they're then covered in the radioactive liquid that leaked out of the container that broke upon hitting on the ground. This situation highlighted the unlikely way that Matt Murdoch got his powers to become Daredevil. When a radioactive substance fell out of a moving truck and blinded him as a child. So, very [00:23:00] much a play on that. There's also the funny correlation between Daredevil's mentor Stick and the turtles mentor being named Splinter. Mike: I never even thought about that before, but that's really funny. This is all stuff out of the Frank Miller, eighties run of Daredevil too, which he almost fetishized Asian cultures in certain ways and was very into ninjas and martial arts and noir, and you can see that later on in his other books like Sin City, but Daredevil, I feel was like, where that really got stuck.  Jessika: Yeah. And definitely with, the parody, that's exactly what they were going for. They were making fun of that whole aesthetic. Mike: Well, yeah, because, everything about the Miller books of Daredevil are so grim and gritty and wrought. I can't read them with a straight face, but that's just me. Jessika: So, Eastman and Laird, like you read in that quote, didn't necessarily think that the comic was going to go anywhere. So much so that they actually killed off their main villain, the [00:24:00] shredder in the first issue. Mike: I was going to talk about that.  Jessika: They killed him off. They just really didn't think that there was going to be an issue two.  I find it really interesting that a comic that was initially thought to be a one-off has turned into such a world-renowned and beloved franchise. Mike: Mmhm.  Jessika:  Fun fact for all of you out there. The first volumes of  the teenage mutant ninja turtles were in black and white with all of the turtles, sporting red bandanas when the covers were finally colorized after the boom in popularity of the series. The only way to really tell them apart where their respective weapons.  Mike: That was the same case with the original Ninja Turtles video game on Nintendo.  I remember getting this when I was a kid and I was sitting there going, oh, they, they have the same color bandanas, but we know who they all are because they all have different weapons, but they were all sporting red bandanas.  Jessika: Yeah, I think I might remember that because we had the Nintendo games, too. Mike: Yeah. Uh, they sucked, They were [00:25:00] really hard and I hated them. I felt like I was a really bad gamer because I couldn't beat it.  Jessika: No, honestly, in that, of course we're, unsurprisingly, we're in a Facebook group about the Ninja Turtles. Everybody that I've read talking about the games. It's like, oh, I never beat that game, I couldn't be that game. It was way too hard. It's, it's not just, you don't feel bad. So, we read the first few issues of the Mirage comics, the OG comics, which tell the origin story of the turtles and Splinter and their quest for vengeance, for the death of Splinters, former master and their ongoing rivalry with Shredder and his gang, the Foot Clan. What did you think about these first few issues? Mike: You know, I had never really read them all the way through before now, and it's really interesting when you're basically reading the first content ever created, when you're here at the point where you're 40 years later. It's kind of charming because there's so much exposition where they're setting everything up. [00:26:00] It's overly earnest. It's silly. it's also much more bloody and violent than you would expect. And the funny thing is, so I was reading this digitally via Hoopla and so they actually have the colorized versions now where, it's all been remastered and everything, but I remember, the giant two page spread where they're fighting the Foot on the rooftop and it's like real bloody. It's so strange to sit there and read all of this and have the knowledge of where they have gone with it since then. But at the same time, I can also understand why nobody in the eighties thought this was going to go anywhere. It's just, it's, for lack of a better term, it's just, it's silly.  Jessika: Yeah. Mike: And, It is a parody, but at the same time, it doesn't entirely feel like a parody, it feels a little bit overly earnest.  I never would have sat there and said, this is going to be the thing that every kid under the age of 10 is going to be interested in because, it's really violent. Like, they sit there and they straight up murder, some street punks who are, I think mugging someone. Was that what happened? [00:27:00] Like at the very end when the cops drive up and you see the bloody hands leftover and.  Jessika: Yeah, they were just street toughs. I agree. Mike: Yeah.  And also, it was weird to see recurring acts of basically domestic violence, because Hamata Yoshi's girlfriend is first beat up by Shredders older brother, and then Shredder vows vengeance after Yoshi kills Shredder's brother. And then Shredder shows up in New York and basically murders first Hamata Yoshi, and then his girlfriend or wife at that point. It's more than I would have expected.  Jessika: Yeah, well, and I love the convoluted storyline, cause I think they were having a laugh with that too. Everyone's on a quest for vengeance. Which is such a theme for the turtles. They're always going for some sort of vengeance because you know, of course that's their whole game.  Mike: Yeah. Jessika: After this. So that's yeah, Mike: And then, like you said, shredder, when I read the first issue, he basically has a [00:28:00] thermite grenade, and gets knocked off the roof while holding it, and then they sit there and make a comment on, oh, well, I guess the shredder got shredded where they just find bits of his armor left. I was like, oh, that was a surprise.  Jessika: Yeah, exactly. And then they turned around and went, oh shit. Oh shit. We have to make an issue two. Mike: Yeah. Ups.  Jessika: Which, if you're playing it as a parody, it must be even funnier to have the person you just killed off, come back mysteriously. I found it really interesting that April started off as an assistant to a robotic engineer when she's most often portrayed as a reporter. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: And she gave it, it comes back around, you know, she's she and other iterations. She becomes , a lab assistant again, or, something having to do with STEM. I also really, really liked the rough style of the comic and how the frames are very obviously hand drawn and hand lettered. Mike: Yeah. I like how, in some of the speech bubbles, you can [00:29:00] see the letters are squeezed a little bit more together at the end cause they just ran out of room.  Jessika: Well, and Eastman even said he was so glad to have somebody when they finally got big enough to have somebody come in and let her, because he's like, I'm so bad at spelling. It's like, I was never this person who spelled, and so there's one place because I'm just a Donatello. Hi, here I am. It's like, I saw the little, like, they meant to put “were”, but they put the little apostrophe in there and I was like. Mike: Oops,  Jessika: Eastman, that's adorable, but it's almost like having like  a finger print or a thumb print on some, like something handmade, like a handmade mug or something like that. That's the artists' imprint.  Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: And again, now that I know that this was written as a parody, I have a much better appreciation for the over-the-top twists and coincidences that led to the turtles' predicaments.  Also, can we please address the insult, slime puppy, that April shouts of bags? Mike: It. [00:30:00] So it reminds me a lot of, in the X-Men animated series, Wolverine keeps on busting out, I think it's like, piece of gutter trash, or something like that. And you're like, oh, that's, that's cute.  Mike: You're, you're trying guys. You're trying.  Jessika: At what point was that, the thing? That's the thing you're going to write down right now. Okay. Right. So, after the success of the 1987 animated TV series, the comic was getting a little too hot for just Eastman and Laird to handle on their own. And after a few issues, they hired freelance artists to help with creating the series while they took on more of a business side of things. It was really important for Eastman and layered that the artists involved had ownership and received royalties for their work. So, there ended up being a lot of issues, not only with continuity, but also with rights and the use of the comics and the storylines created. To this day, it's difficult, if not impossible, to find copies of [00:31:00] some of the comics created by these other artists, especially since some of the artists refused to sell the rights to their storylines or characters back to Mirage, and therefore those issues were unable to be reprinted. So bye, bye. One of the interesting partnerships of that time was with Archie, and that's how Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Adventures was born. The first issue was on shelves and emblazoned with the Comics Code emblem, finally, in March of 1989. Wow, that was a big sigh. Mike: Anytime someone mentions the Comics Code Authority, I just, I feel like I need a good rainstorm to just stare at sadly.  Jessika: While I agree with you, you have to admit that it was a rite of passage. Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: For, like getting into mainstream and having your your shit recognized, you know? So that must've been huge.  Mike: I mean, the comic [00:32:00] stores that I went to when I was a kid, they wouldn't put stuff out on the shelves. If it didn't have the comics code seal of approval. And then by the time I was like 11 or 12, because you started having more and more independent publishers that didn't adhere to it. Jessika: Exactly. No. I mean that's yeah, absolutely. Mike: Would you consider Teenager Mutant Ninja Turtles Adventures? Would, would that be like, volume 1.5 almost? Jessika:  Yes. Yes I would.  So, now that the turtles were officially, family-friendly. Written and illustrated by Eastman layered and Steve Levine. These differed greatly to the original comics. In fact, they had the same style color, and kid-friendly vibe as the TV show, which makes a lot of sense because, well, Archie. Will you give us a rundown of these comics that we read and share your opinion with us? Mike: Yeah. So these seem to pick up immediately after that initial TV movie animated series thing, where [00:33:00] the turtles defeated Shredder and Krang, and then trapped them in Dimension X. Shredder gets sent back to earth by crying in the first issue and has to basically start from the ground up to get his revenge. There's a whole scene where he winds up in a park in town and some guys tried to mug him and then he basically intimidates them into giving him their money, and then he goes and takes over some, what was it Slash for Cash dojo, I think was the name of it.  Jessika: Yeah. It was like a name nobody would have had, which I have to say about those, those street toughs, Shredder's, like, oh, I must be a New York because I just got mugged.  Mike: That was great.  And then he takes the dojo over from the leader whose name is Smash, which I thought was great. And then he basically starts going about getting his revenge against the turtles, which is, he has these toughs from the gym dress up as the [00:34:00] turtles, and very obviously bad turtle costumes, and then commit robberies. And then there's a media smear campaign where everyone is like, well, we thought we, uh, we thought that we liked the turtles. We thought they were good guys, but I, I guess they're actually criminals. It's so simple and kind of charming. I couldn't even get mad, it was ridiculous, but I, I couldn't believe what a flashback this was.  It was nostalgia, personified, ya know.  It's very silly and very innocent and the jokes are corny and the art's pretty simple, but I really got a kick reading through it. I haven't watched the cartoon in a couple of decades, but I immediately knew where the comic's story was picking up.  The turtles, rely on slapstick gags rather than actual ninjitsu to defeat the criminals that they're encountering. Shredder and his crew are blundering morons, and there's this overall wholesome quality to the comic.  It's very kid-friendly, but I [00:35:00] didn't feel like I was being patronized while I read it, even though I'm almost 40 at this point.  Jessika: Yeah. It was, like you said, it was so nostalgia, like nostalgia alley, for sure. These are the turtles and April from my childhood. You know? Mike: Yeah, 100%. Jessika: These are the ones, the main characters were pretty closely based on the animated series while having the rest of the miscellaneous folks being like these goofy Archie type characters. Also, I really liked the way that they framed the TV shots to be shaped like the TVs. Like the frames of the comics were shaped, like the shape of a TV.  Mike: Yeah, that 4:3 ratio and all that.  Jessika: I really liked that. Yeah. With the rounded edges and everything. Mike: Yeah, it was cute. Jessika: You immediately understood that you were supposed to be seeing something on a screen. And it was light and it was frivolous, without the threat of any real danger.I call it a really decent kids comic.  Mike: I've read worse. Jessika: So volume two, moving right along, was written and illustrated by Jim Lawson and was introduced in 1993, amidst the [00:36:00] fan success of the first two Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle live action films. This was also after a falling out between Eastman and Laird caused the duo to stop working together until just recently. Mike: Which you can actually see them come back together in the Netflix series, the Toys That Made Us.  Jessika: Yes. Yeah. Which I'm sure is going to play a large role in my next episode of this show. With this change came another: the comic was fully colored. In this series, the turtles part ways as they have no shared purpose after the defeat of the Foot Clan, they battle and defeat Baxter Stockman, who has placed his brain in a robotic body and deal with Triceratons, which are by far my favorite villains in the turtle verse. But despite the turtles as popularity, the series only lasted 13 issues. And a couple of years. Volume two ended with sad sales numbers, [00:37:00] and a literal flood in Mirage Studios, womp womp. In 1996, Image Comics published Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles volume three, which was written by Gary Carlson and illustrated by Frank Foscoe. They published a total of 23 monthly issues and return the turtles back to their black and white roots, but did not include the duo-shading, which I found confusing. Mike: Mmhm, same. Jessika: This volume was kind of a trip. It was more intense and action packed, with even more plot twists. Also, they made the turtles much more battle-worn, with turtles missing appendages or in Donatello's case being forced to become a cyborg. And, because it was now being produced by Image, it allowed the turtles to do crossover issues with characters from the Savage Dragon series. Mike: I had those issues. I don't think I still have them anymore, but I remember, it was a big thing where the Savage Dragon basically [00:38:00] stood up his girlfriend, because he was, involved in some shenanigans with the turtles. I think she almost broke up with him at one point, because of that, in that one is.  Jessika: I almost said good for her, but then you said almost. Mike: Almost. Jessika: Now, the drama with this issue is that it's no longer considered canon in the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle universe, mostly because Peter Laird hadn't been directly involved in making the storyline. So, another situation where they got a little precious about the material.  We also read the first few issues of this comic. What are your thoughts on the comic? What I just said? Anything. Mike: I gotta be honest if I were Peter Laird, I probably would have disowned this too. Cause it's really not that great. The art is just generally confusing because there is no sense of depth or shading. It starts you off right in the middle of a big battle. The turtles are getting shot, Splinter is kidnapped, they're being attacked by cyborgs for no real reason [00:39:00] that you can understand, Raphael if I remember, right, is disfigured pretty badly, there's a female ninja who shows up and she is nothing but T&A. And, if you look at the cover for the second issue, it's very male-gazey, where you see the back of a woman and it's really just her ass and legs while the turtles are facing the camera. And it's, everything about this feels like nineties extreme with a capital X. in all the worst ways. And it's funny because I was wondering if Eric Larson, who did the Savage Dragon was drawing this because the art style is very reminiscent of him, and he was also doing the covers. Tom Belland, our friend, I remember him telling me a story about how, at one point he was at Image Comics, and they were criticizing his art style, and he told them that they all draw women late 12 year old boys, because they're. Jessika: Because they do. Mike: They're all boobs and legs and not much else.  Jessika: I mean, I don't see a lie. Mike:  Yeah, [00:40:00] no lies detected my friend. It's I don't know. I, I really didn't want to read any more past the first issue either. It just, it felt very forgettable and dumb and shocking for the sake of being shocking, not for actually trying to do anything good storytelling-wise.  Jessika: Yeah, these were just, they were like, we were talking about, they were difficult to read, they were super frenzied. I didn't know where to look. And it took me a lot longer to read them because I was trying to hash out what was happening. Mike: It was visually confusing, which is kind of the kiss of death in a comic, like the fact that it lasted 23 issues is just mind numbing to me.  Jessika: Yeah. you know, you look at comics a lot of the time, the ones that I really connect with are the ones where you look at it and you can see the intended motion.  Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: I didn't get that at all here. I just felt like I was looking for the motion. It just wasn't there. Mike: Yeah, and even without that duo tone shading, they [00:41:00] didn't do anything, really in its place. Jessika: Yeah, it wasn't. Wasn't great.  Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: And you had mentioned the outfits, it just felt like it was set in a futuristic BDSM party.  Mike: A hundred percent. I mean, the first thing that we see is, uh, what's her name? Isn't Kimiko is that her  Jessika: Kimiko. Yeah. Mike: Yeah. And she shows up and basically, she looks like she is wearing a leather bondage version of Leelou's outfit from the Fifth Element. It is straps and spikes and it makes no sense whatsoever.  Jessika: And like, let's be real. Her boobs are too big for that. Like there's no way that that's containing anything, logistically. Mike: No. I mean it  her outfit is body paint, basically. Jessika: Yeah, really is. Mike: So Image Comics in the nineties, they were kind of leading  this artistic charge of just heinously unrealistic women. And as much as I [00:42:00] enjoyed the Savage Dragon and Eric Larson's various books, Tom, wasn't wrong, they drew women like 12 year olds did. Jessika:  Mmhmm. Mike: We can talk about this at some future point, but I'm sure there's an entire generation of kids who grew up reading comics in that era who developed body dysmorphia or just heinously unrealistic expectations for what people were supposed to look like in general.  Jessika: Yeah. Agreed. Well, what do you say we, uh, move on to volume four? Mike: Sure. Jessika: Volume four was first published in 2001, and was created by Peter Laird and Jim Lawson. There was a couple year hiatus in 2006 when Peter Laird stopped to work on the TMNT movie.  Aliens have landed and are taking up what they say is temporary residence on earth, which brings with it the added side-effect of normalizing weirdos on the street. So, the turtles are able to come out of hiding and enter more freely into society and other shenanigans with aliens that [00:43:00] may or may not be trustworthy, of course happen. Oh, and apparently the turtles are in their thirties. Same, bro, same.  What say ye about the IDW comics we read? Mike: I kind of dug them. It's one of those things where it feels like they are starting with the foundation that we all knew, and then they were growing it out in a different way. It's not bad, it felt kind of like a weird reboot, while also continuing a story that I wasn't overly familiar with. We opened with a rumble between the turtles and a gang that was led by another mutant animal. Jessika: It was a cat. Mike: Yeah. Did he have a name? I can't remember.  Jessika: It was Old Hob.  Mike: Ah. Jessika: He had an eye patch, Old Hob. Mike: Yeah. And, and he's clearly got history with Splinter, and after they defeat them, it's revealed that Raphael is split from the turtles and he's out wandering around and he ends up rescuing pretty randomly, he ends up busting into Casey [00:44:00] Jones' house to rescue a very young Casey from his abusive dad. We get back to April's original roots of her being a scientist, where she's working for Baxter Stockman's lab. And then also we find out that Krang is around, but he's shown only in shadow. I seriously got some Dr. Claw vibes from the way that they first introduced crane where he's only shown from the back. You only see the silhouette of his chair and then his hand on the phone.  Jessika: Yeah.  Mike: From the first issue on, you get the impression that they're taking familiar elements and then trying to. In a new way. And that was fine. I mean, my basic familiarity felt like the right starting point for where to go with it, but it, felt pretty cool and it felt like there was actually some pretty decent plot stuff that they were working with and they weren't trying to make it just all action. And also, I really appreciated that the women did not look like Playboy centerfolds.  Jessika: Yeah, that was helpful.  Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: It's hard to be a woman and read comics, I'm just like, [00:45:00] man, this isn't for me at all. Is it?  Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Well, I'm pansexual, it's kinda for me, but yeah, I thought the series was fun. The illustration is great as well as the coloring. And the action sequences is really fly off the page and make the reader feel like the pictures really could have been moving. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Again. Like you said, I'm loving that April gets to be a scientist again. And I like that in this one, she was the one who actually named the turtles.  Mike: That was really cute.  Jessika: Yeah. She was like, I'm in art history. Mike: Yeah. Cause she was like, she was like an intern at the lab basically.  Jessika: Yeah.  Mike: Or work study or whatever it is. Yeah. Jessika: And I think it's really cute that their personalities were already showing when they were baby turtles. Like Raphael was already agro.  Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: He's the feisty one. Further into it, Raphael gets carried away after the whole, like breaking of the canister thing. And he starts getting [00:46:00] carried away by a cat. And that's why they there's this mutant cat, but Splinter had had some psychotropics. And so he was a little bit more with it, went and fought the cat, but he got swept up into the bag with the other stuff and got carried off by the bad guys, the baddies, and Raphael was just on his own. So he didn't have the development that the other turtles did.  Mike: That's actually a really nice touch. Jessika: Yeah, it was super interesting. It's also interesting to me that the mutation and the growth was a lot quicker in this series. They really didn't turn into true teenagers because they haven't been alive for that long, they've only been alive for like, 15 months or something.  So finally, I just wanted to touch on the current series that is happening right now. And one that Mike mentioned in episode one, which is the Last Ronin.  Mike: Yes.  Jessika: Yes. And I'm very excited about this one, and it's absolutely one of the [00:47:00] items on my pull list with another one of our local shops, the Outer Planes in Santa Rosa, the first three issues are available now. And if you have Hoopla Mike and I have had luck finding it to borrow for free, they also have a director's cut for issue one, which has some extra fun sketchies with back, everyone. So just saying that's the one I read, cause I actually own issue one, but I did borrow it on Hoopla too, to see what the little bonuses were. Mike: Yeah. And we've mentioned this before, but Hoopla is an app that, basically they work with libraries across the country and will just let you check out digital content.  They limit it to a certain number of items per month. How many do you get. Jessika: I think it's like six or something. Mike: Yeah, I get eight. It's pretty low, but like insane. But in San Francisco it's like 21.  Jessika: Ah, okay. Mike: But it's still a really great way to scope out contents legally, you're not pirating it, which is great. And you know, you're also, supporting the libraries because they're working with it, but it's free to you. So, it makes me feel good whenever I can read [00:48:00] content that way. And they've got a truly amazing selection of comics and graphic novels and a huge catalog of Ninja Turtles content.  Jessika: Yeah. For those of you who are watching Netflix's is Sweet Tooth, that actually was a comic and that is on Hoopla as well. I checked it out and haven't started it yet. And then it checked itself back in, cause I waited too long. Whoops. Mike: If you get around to reading it, I would love to just hear your thoughts on it because.  Jessika: Absolutely. Mike: I read the first volume and I thought it was very good, but I couldn't bring myself to read anymore because I don't like reading about people being mean to kids. And. Jessika: Oh no.  Mike: And that's very much what it is, where , it's a guy who is kind of like a young teenager and he's very trusting and people keep abusing his trust or terrorizing him. Jessika: No. Mike: And I'm like, I think I don't want to read that.  Jessika: That's why I had to stop reading Lemony Snicket.  Mike: Yeah.  Jessika: Yeah. I like read the first book and I was like, oh, sorry. This is really mean to children and I, my little empathetic heart is just crying. Mike: Yeah. I don't like cruelty to kids., I don't like [00:49:00] cruelty to animals, and I don't like cruelty to old people. Jessika:  Do you want to remind the listeners what the series is about and what you think so far? Mike: Sure. This is actually the comic that I'm most familiar with since I've been reading. As I said on Hoopla as the issues have been coming out. This is being billed as the final in quotes, Ninja Turtle story, which takes place in this dystopian, cyberpunk New York. That's now controlled by the Foot Clan. At some point in the past, the turtles were exterminated and only one of them survived. And now he's come back to town with kind of a bucket list of revenge. His identity is originally kept mystery, though it's really not that hard to figure out before the first issue reveals it on the final page. And the subsequent issues spin out both the world and the backstory. I've really been digging it so far. I'm sure that I am missing a lot of little details, because I'm not the most diehard fan of the Ninja Turtles. But, that said, I've been having a [00:50:00] lot of fun with it and I love the new character designs, and also I'm a sucker for anything cyberpunk.  Jessika: Yeah, I'm really, really enjoying this comic. The illustrations. Absolutely beautiful and colorful, even though it's set in dystopian society. They didn't go with the whole like grunge, everything is dark, which I really liked. Mike: Yeah. It's really cool.  Jessika: And I like the idea that the sole turtle is still being guided by this spirit or memory of his brothers, and that he still draws from the skills and strengths by, in a way, imagining what they would do or what advice they would give. So I thought that was really sweet and they did bring back elements of the original turtles. Like you said, like Stockman's robot mousers that have been upgraded, the Fugitoid and professor Honeycutt. You know, it was just like they're bringing in all of these other things.  It's yeah. It's, it's super interesting. Oh, and, did you notice, there's an Eastman and layered cameo  Mike: What? Jessika: In issue two. Mike: No, I totally missed this. Where is it? [00:51:00]  Jessika: So it's an issue two, and they're eating pizza and they're like, what was that? Could it have been…? Nah. Like when like a turtle is going by and they're like, that didn't happen.  Mike: That's great, I love it. Jessika: Yeah. It was like younger Eastman and Laird, so super fun. It's really sweet. So far. It's got a lot of depth to it. They have a lot of really meaningful conversations about mental health too, which I think is really. Mike: Yeah. they've handled PTSD and. Trauma and everything in. I'm not sure I want to use the word realistic, but in believable ways.  Jessika: Yeah. I would agree with that description. Yeah.  Now onto our Brain Wrinkles. Which is that one thing comics are comics-related that is currently captured within the crevices of our cerebra. Mike, why don't you start us off? Mike: Put me on the spot. [00:52:00] Yeah. So, there's been a bit of news the past couple of weeks about bisexuality being addressed and acknowledged in comics and comics related-media. So, last week on Loki, we had it revealed that Loki is canonically bisexual, which was, that was really nice.  Jessika: Pew pew pew pew pew! Mike: As someone who is bi, it's always really nice to see it acknowledged because you know, bi-erasure is a thing and it sucks. But this week, in fact, I think it was yesterday or Tuesday, Al Ewing, the writer that I talked about in, I believe the last episode or the episode before that he's the writer for We Only Find Them When They're Dead, he officially came out as being bisexual. He acknowledged that like he hasn't really been quiet about it, but he he's never exactly aade a formal statement or anything like that. And so he wrote a really, a really thoughtful blog post about all this and talking about how [00:53:00] often people that are within this group have to deal with imposter syndrome and, he put it really well where he said I've always looked at myself through a lens of self-hatred and self-loathing, and that's affected this. I wasn't enough in this category because I wasn't enough in any category.  My not being bi enough was just one more metric that I could hate myself on. And it really resonated with me becauseI spent a long time, not really sure how to feel about my sexuality. And then the other thing is that the queer community is not always the most welcoming of us.  Jessika: Yeah. I've had those situations as well, where, I'll be on an online dating site and I'm, I'm pansexual. I will, I will date anyone. Gender is not a thing to me. And it's not that it's not a thing, but you know what I mean? That's not a, that's not a metric by which I choose my partners. Mike: Right.  Jessika: But there were a lot of times where I would go onto somebody's profile. And when it would say no bi girls or [00:54:00] no bis or something like that. And it's just like, and actually I stopped listening to a podcast cause they started talking about the idea that women get nervous, that you're just going to cheat on them with a guy. Which is like, if I'm in a relationship with you and we're in a relationship, we're in a relationship, it doesn't matter what my orientation is. If I'm a cheater, I'm going to cheat on you, regardless of whether I'm like, you know, but I'm not, that's the thing you have to trust the person you're in a relationship with, and it doesn't have anything to do with their orientation.  Mike: Yeah. I've dated a few people who felt they couldn't trust me because I had dated the other gender and, those relationships didn't last. Jessika: Nope.  Mike: But yeah, that is what has been rattling around my noggin for the past couple of days. So, what about you?  Jessika: So, I wanted to circle back about the Corey Feldman concert I attended a few years back. And [00:55:00] as I had been previously speculating on whether it was the very same weird winged and lingerie-clad, ladies, Corey's Angels. And, friends, I am so sorry to report that I have some unfortunate news that it was in fact Corey's Angels. I will post pics, they're very blurry picks from this concert on Instagram. Also again, my apologies for being complicit in this bad cult situation. Mike: You know, I will say that after our episode and I was reliving how terrible Corey Feldman was. I found myself rewatching a couple of his music videos, and there's such trash, but I am a little ashamed that I gave him the one 10th of a half penny on YouTube. Jessika: I know. Right. And then you sent it to me. So you gave him two, technically. Mike: I know. I I, mean, it is pretty funny though. When you read the Vice articles that make fun of his parties, [00:56:00] though.  Jessika: Well, folks, that's it for this episode, be sure to join us again in two weeks for another riveting comic adventure. Mike: Thanks For listening to Ten Cent Takes. Accessibility is important to us, so text transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our website.  Jessika: This episode was hosted by Jessika Frazer and Mike Thompson written by Jessika Frazer and edited by Mike Thompson. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson Johnson of Bay Area Sound, our credits and transition music is Pursuit of Life by Evan McDonald and was purchased with a standard license from Premium Beat. Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank, who is on Instagram as @lookmomdraws. Mike: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions or tell us about how we got something wrong, please head over to tencenttakes.com, [00:57:00] or shoot an email to tencenttakes@gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter, the official podcast is tencenttakes, Jessika is Jessikawitha, and Jessika has a K, not a C, and I am vansau, V A N S A U. Jessika: If you'd like to support us, be sure to subscribe, download, rate, and review wherever you listen. Mike: Stay safe out there.  Jessika: And support your local comic shop. 

Freeze, creep! This week, we're checking out the 1995 and 2012 attempts to bring Judge Dredd to American movie audiences. Spoiler alert: It didn't work out like the studios hoped.  ----more---- [00:00:00] Mike: That's a little too thirsty, I think. Welcome to Tencent takes the podcast where we violate Mega City One's judicial codes, one issue at a time. Coming at you live from the hot box of my closet; I have not showered in 24-hours, and I smell fantastic. I'm Mike Thompson and I am joined by my co-host, the princess of pain, Jessika Frazer. Jessika: Yaar! I'm also - Mike: How are you smelling? Jessika: God, I'm in a hotbox of pain at the very least, I had to go to work like physically into the office today. So I actually, you know, had to be decent enough to be around people that are masked, so the deodorant had to at least be applied, but. Mike: No hard pass. I work out of my bedroom now, you're lucky if you get pants. Jessika: Well, that's nice. [00:01:00] Mike: Would you like to explain why we are here? Jessika: You know, we're here because we love comics. Mike, Mike: True. Jessika: We love comics. We want to talk about all the comics. We want to do deep dives about our favorite comics and their heroes, and where they came from. And wild little stories that we find out about them and bringing in nefarious characters like Eric Estrada. He's not a nefarious. Mike: He's a little nefarious. He was involved in a really weird kind of scammy land sale thing. He did also endorse Trump on Twitter. Remember that where he was like - Jessika: Oh God. He is nefarious. Gosh, darn I, why do I always want to give Eric Estrada so much credit? I'm like way too nice to the guy. I don't even know him. I do follow him on Twitter now, but. Mike: No. He literally told Donald Trump on Twitter that he should run for president because he tells it like it is. So thanks, Eric. Thanks. Appreciate that. Jessika: No. That was a bad idea. Like, for [00:02:00] the record, I don't know if anyone else knows that. Everyone else knows that, every other country knows that. Mike: They do now. Jessika: Oh man, we're going to get into some hot topics today, too. This is already a good start. Mike: Yeah. So before I interrupted you, is there anything else that we'd like to cover or talk about or look at? Jessika: Oh, their video games, all the related media movies. Everything, everything comics related, we want to talk about it. Mike: Fair. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: Well, today we are going to hop on our Law Masters and cruise the Cursed Earth as we check out both the cinematic adaptations of Judge Dredd. But, before we do that, before we dive into this episode, we'd like to acknowledge a small milestone because this is our 10th episode and we've received over 500 downloads. So, you know, that may not sound like anything major compared to a lot of podcasts out there, but we're incredibly proud of what we've been able to achieve and how far we've gotten so far. And if you're listening to us, we're super [00:03:00] grateful that you've just given us your time. We really appreciate it. So to celebrate, we're going to do a giveaway. If you go to our page on Apple Podcast and leave a rating, and then email us a screenshot of said rating and a review, but that's only if you're inclined, really, we just care about the rating. We'll enter you to win a $25 gift card from NewKadia. NewKadia actually offers international shipping too. So, even listeners outside of the continental us are eligible. Jessika: That's super exciting! Mike: Yeah. Jessika: So Yeah. Rate us, review us. We appreciate you all. Mike: Even you. Yeah. So I'm talking to you right through your car stereo right now. Jessika: We're there with you driving along. Hey, watch the road. Mike: All right. We're at the point of the episode where we like to start off with one cool thing that we've read or watched lately, do you want to start off? Jessika: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I needed a little bit of a palate cleanser after watching the [00:04:00] 2012 dread film so much gore. So I ended up watching Guardians of the Galaxy 2, which I hadn't seen before, and it was super fun. Loved the music as always characters had a really good chance to further develop. Okay. But I have to say, dude, I like still Stalloned myself. I did not know he was in that movie. And then he just shows up and I was like, what the fuck? Cause I literally had just watched them both in a row. And so I literally had just seen Stallone like the movie before that. And then he shows up again and I was like, good lord. Mike: Well, and you know that his crew is like the original Guardians of the Galaxy from the comic books. Jessika: I do. Yeah.I do. Now. I know I looked that up afterwards and I was like, oh, okay. All right. Mike: Yeah. And it was like Michael Rosenbalm, who did the voice of Superman and was Lex Luther in Smallville and the Michelle Yeoh and Ving Rhames. I was totally here for that cameo. That was great. [00:05:00] Jessika: Yeah. It was, once I looked that up, I was like, oh, that makes more sense. Cause I wasn't aware of that. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: it was super fun, but then I Stalloned myself again because I today a guest hosting of trivia for North Bay Trivia in Santa Rosa, at Shady Oak Barrel. And they have like a little arcade game. That's Stallone on the front. And I can't remember, I sent it to you, I think, cause I frickin' Stalloned myself again, secondary Stallone. Mike: I feel like you did. And I can't remember what it was. Jessika: I'd have to look it up, but I'm too lazy to look through my phone. So we'll just leave it. Anyone knows I don't, I don't care anymore. Mike: Fair. Jessika: So, back to the Guardians of the Galaxy after that Stallone detour, I really, really liked the evolution of Gomorrah, Nebula's relationship. Mike: I love that. I thought it was fantastic. Like I thought honestly, Almost all the characters had really nice [00:06:00] development, except really, I mean, I don't know. I feel like Peter didn't actually develop that much as an actual character. Jessika: No, he was just taken on some Shamaylan twists and turns. Mike: Yeah. But yeah, the whole bit where, Yondu is yelling at Rocket about, you say that I don't know you, but like you're me. And it was oh, oh. Jessika: Gosh. I definitely cried during that movie. I'm not going to lie, but I'm a crier. Mike: There's a lot of feels. There's a lot of feels in that movie. Jessika: Yeah. Oh, it was so good. So overall two thumbs up. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: What about you? What have you been reading? Watching? Mike: Yeah. So, Sarah and I started watching Loki because that just began airing last week, and ahead of that I wound up reading a couple of old issues of Thor, specifically Thor 371 and 372, which are the issues that actually introduced the Time Variance Authority. And the funny thing is that these issues also introduced a character who [00:07:00] may look a little familiar to you, especially as we've been prepping a bit for this particular episode. So check out the cover and tell me if he reminds you of anyone Jessika: Okay. That looks like a, that's so funny. That looks like Captain America, but it also looks like one of those those Doctor Who, like, what are those things called? Mike: The Daleks. So if you take a closer look at that guy that is so his character, his name is Justice Peace. And if you look at the shape of his helmet and he's actually on a sky cycle. Jessika: Oh shit. Mike: But, yeah, it's a pastiche of Judge Dredd. Jessika: He does look like Judge Dredd. You know what threw me was the bright colors, because Judge Dredd has darker tones. So I kinda got drawn more to that kind of vibe, but you're right. He's got the helmet across his face. You can see one of his eyes and the other one looks like it's probably bionic. And it's kind of like a samurai helmet, it looks like. It's, I think it's supposed to be shaped like more of a samurai style. If I'm not mistaken. Mike: Kind [00:08:00] of which - Jessika: It's big. Mike: Like actually the, Jessika: I don't. Mike: The old school Judge Dredd helmets, actually, like some of them have actually taken on that look too. Like they've kind of played with the shapes, but anyway, I thought it was just kind of a funny, a funny, a full circle moment. Jessika: He's got some arm bandoliers too. Mike: Yeah, man. Those were big in the eighties. Jessika: I guess. So, dang dude, I'm loving this. Mike: Yeah. It's a lot of fun. We are going to be talking about Judge Dredd in general. We're not going to do a deep dive on the comics, but we're going to talk a bit about the background. And so before we actually do that, I felt like we should take a minute and talk about how of us have grown up with pretty close connections to law enforcement. Do you want to go first? Jessika: No. Sure, sure, sure, sure. So my dad was a police officer for, I think, close to 30 years. And for a lot of it he worked in public safety, which is really like policing and [00:09:00] firefighting and they rotate duties. So you have to know both, you go through both academies. It's supposed to be that you're a little bit more well-rounded and involved, and I don't know, it was. At the time the community was a lot smaller and it probably made more sense, but it's getting bigger. And, I don't know how much sense it makes, but I'm also not an expert. And I haven't lived there for a while, so I don't know what the politics there are these days surrounding that as much as I used to. As far as police officers go, I do know a few really decent people who are police officers and, you know, growing up, I had mostly good experiences. However, that hasn't been the case for everyone. And my privilege of being raised white and a child of a law enforcement officer has absolutely shielded me from so many of the issues and policing that plagues our country. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: And I have to say like, unironically, my dad was a decent cop. He's still alive. But when he was still in law enforcement, he was a decent cop and [00:10:00] he definitely let his ethics guide him, and he left positions based on his moral compass. And I'm really proud of him for leaving organizations that were more on the corrupt side or that weren't doing things that he thought they should be doing and abiding by their own rules. However, he's also the one who taught me about profiling, which is a conversation I remember having with him around 9 or 10 years old, maybe earlier than that. And that's just such a racist tactic that has never really sat right with me. And that I adamantly oppose now that I'm older and I have a better understanding of how we as a society, villainize people of color just for existing. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: So without getting too far into what is a really, really massive conversation and discussion, the judicial system in this country is absolutely broken, and we statistically arrest convict and give longer incarceration timeframes to people of color. Mike: Yeah. I mean, there's, [00:11:00] that's just a fact. Jessika: It's a fact. There, there are numbers, you can look it up, you know, it's yeah. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: So, I know, on that fun note, whatever, I'm such a downer. Mike: That's okay. I should have known better than to start us off on this, you know, really positive note for the episode. Jessika: I already got fired up. I'm already going to have to edit out my mumbling. Mike: That's all right. You know, it's funny because I have to wonder if my uncle actually knew your dad because my uncle was in the same area and works in public safety as well. So, he always did the firefighting and police work as well. My uncle is the guy that I grew up idolizing when I was a kid. He was the cool uncle to me. He taught me the basics of photography. And I worked as a freelance photographer for awhile. He was a forensic specialist dealing with fingerprinting. So you and I [00:12:00] grew up in the 90's in the Bay Area. So Polly Klaas is a name that any, anyone who was here during that time knows, and she was a girl who was kidnapped out of her home, basically just taken while she was having a sleep over with some friends out of her home in Petaluma. And the FBI apparently came in and did a Palm print, but they use some fluorescent powder that the local PD couldn't read, but my uncle had the training and I guess the equipment, I don't quite know all the details, but so he worked the Polly Klaas case. He and my aunt are both retired police and they were both so incredibly cool to me when I was growing up. And I've since had to reckon with the fact that, you know, not all cops are good, and I'd hope that they were great. I hope that they were the bar that other cops were measured against, but who can say it, this. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: So we, we both have connections to law enforcement, and I think it's safe [00:13:00] to say that we're approaching Judge Dredd from a perspective that is influenced both by our backgrounds, as well as the current environment that's going on because we're recording this in June of 2021 when things are still real bad in a lot of ways. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: So now that we've got that highlight out of the way. I'm curious, what was your awareness of Judge Dredd prior to this. Jessika: You know, besides name recognition, I didn't know much about the plot line, other than some vague notion that it was futuristic or post-apocalyptic. So, I came into this super fresh, and I'm super excited to learn more now. Mike: Yeah. So, I definitely have a lot more familiarity with the character. I read some of his stuff in the 90's and 2000's. I would just kind of randomly find things and I thought he was pretty cool. When I was in roller derby, my roller derby name actually wound up being Judge Dreadful. [00:14:00] And so I've since then bought a number of collections. I've read most of the big storylines that they did from the 70's up until the mid-90's. And then I also read one of the more recent American series as well. I've seen all the movies. Dred is still one of my favorite movies of all time, even though we'll talk about that later on, it's got its own issues through today's lens. I guess the best way I can describe myself is: I'm more than a casual fan, but I'm not a diehard fan. Part of it is just because there's so much lore at this point. So, I have an unfair advantage in terms of familiarity, I guess. Sorry. Jessika: No, that's okay. That's why you're hosting this episode. Not me. Mike: Yeah. So, we're going to do some basic background. Dredd was originally created in 1977 for this newly launched comics anthology called 2000 AD. There was this guy, he was an editor named Pat Mills and he brought on a writer that he'd worked with named John Wagner to create new content for this magazine. [00:15:00] And, basically comics, anthology magazines, they were printed on like newspaper stock. They were magazine format. And what it was very kind of, you know, old school pulp magazine, like where it was serial stories usually, or a little one-offs. So it'd be four to five pages, usually of content per story. And then a lot of times they would end on a cliffhanger so that, you know, the readers would come back the next week. And that's generally how British comics have worked. At least that's my understanding of it. That's how a lot of them are. And actually when they were trying to do US style sized comics, supposedly they didn't do as well because they would get covered up basically and overshadowed by the sheer size of these magazines, which were much bigger and flashier. So Wagner came into 2000 AD. He'd had a lot of success writing this Dirty Harry kind of character called One-Eyed Jack for another anthology series called Valiant, and both he and Mills realized that 2000 AD needed [00:16:00] a quote unquote, a hardcore cop character as part of the magazine's content. So, Wagner has since then described, dread as a psycho cop with no feelings. And then he worked with this artist named Carlos Escuera to create the character and then Escuera wound up designing a character who reflected that kind of hardcore, no feelings ideal. He actually died a couple of years ago and the Guardian ran a really, it was really nice ,tribute talking about his accomplishments and his style, but there's this really great quote, which I think you should actually read out. And it gives us a lot of background in a nutshell of Dredd and who he is. Jessika: Escuera started his career drawing war comics in Barcelona before moving to the UK and working for the anthology 2000 AD and others, He brought the iconography of fascist Spain to Dredd's extremely weird and [00:17:00] vivid design and combined it with his experiences of living in Croydon through the 70's and 80's, the punk movement on his doorstep and TV images of policemen, charging striking miners. The Eagle motif and helmet were drawn from fascism, the permanently drawn truncheon from police on the picket line. The zips chains and knee pads from punk. I was living in Franco, Spain, he told an interviewer last year, but also I was living in Mrs. Thatcher's England. Mike: I think that kinda tells us all we need to know about what they're going for with the vibe of Judge Dredd. Jessika: Yeah. No, that, that definitely showed. I was thinking that about the Eagle. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: When they were showing the big building and it was super, everything was just cement and. Mike: Yeah. It's got that brutalist kind of architecture. Yeah. Jessika: Yes. Mike: Yeah. So Dred exists in this world. That's left standing after World War III, and [00:18:00] most of the planet's just been devastated. America is largely uninhabitable, say for a couple of what are called Mega Cities, which are these autonomous city states that housed hundreds of millions of people. At one point in the comics, I think it's up to 800 million and they've had different events where they've kind of knocked it down repeatedly, Jessika: Yikes. Mike: And at one point it got as low as like 120 million or so I think that was kind of after I stopped reading though. But anyway, mega city one was originally going to be a future version of New York City. But that was quickly retconned to that specific part, being some sort of capital area for this urban sprawl that covers most of the Eastern seaboard. And from the get-go, Dredd stories were kind of this extreme form of satire. It was presenting the society where democracy basically failed, and the office of the president of the United States has been retired, and society now runs under this, to be honest, terrifying gaze of the Judges. How would you sum up the [00:19:00] Judges based on what we saw in the movies? Jessika: As a whole, they were pretty robotic and unfeeling. They were doling out the letter of the law as it happened and per their protocol, and their justice is swift and immediate, which is really terrifying. Like you said to imagine. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: And what's even scarier is that all crimes were treated the same. You are either sent to a prison called an isopod, or killed right then and there. There was, there were no middle grounds between those points. It was like, you're hauled off then, you serve a sentence, or you're just killed. Mike: Yeah. I mean, that's really not that different from the comics. Jessika: And then, as far as their appearance, as with most uniforms, they dress the same with helmets and body armor and they are just armed to the gills and they look just as scary as they act. Mike: Yeah. And, I think a safe way to describe the system of Mega City [00:20:00] one is to call it authoritarian, but it's just a little bit different than what we normally associate with that term. Jessika: Yeah. I wonder if there's some sort of like a law-tarian like judiciatarion. I don't know, somebody is going to @ me and tell me how stupid I am, but that's fine. I already know. Mike: I like, I like, I liked judicialtarion. I think that's, uh, if that's not a word we should make it one. Jessika: Here we are, TM TM. Mike: Yeah, we're just going to sit back and let the royalties roll in after this. Yeah, but in spite of all this, there's this very weird, dry, British humor that kind of makes the whole narrative a little more palatable. So like one of the early stories is focusing on how robots were doing most of society's work and that's resulted in rampant, unemployment and boredom, so citizens of the mega blocks start engaging in what they call block wars, where neighboring blocks basically just start opening fire on each other because they want something to do. There's another story where the Dark Judges, who [00:21:00] are, they're effectively movie monster versions of the Judges as we know them crossover into Dredd's reality. And then they start slaughtering people, indiscriminately, because all crime is committed by the living. And, thus the sentence for life is death. Jessika: Yikes. Mike: Or, there's also the idea that recycled food is, what they call it, is how they eat these days. But recycled food is actually made from people you know, it's Soylent Green Jessika: Oh, How Soylent Green. Yeah. Mike: Yeah. The Dredd comics always have this kind of underlying tone of absurdity. It's that slight bit of levity that makes this really brutal comic actually pretty enjoyable because it becomes ridiculous. It's a comic of extremes. Over time, the comics gone on to deal with things like Dredd having to resolve how the system that he represents is actually problematic, and it needs some kind of reform. The ramifications of how the push to move back to democracy fails and, [00:22:00] you know, actually fleshing him out as a character who occasionally has feelings, not all the time, but just sometimes. He goes from being kind of a lawful neutral character to a lawful kind of good alignment, like sort of good, kind of, some of the time. There's only so long that you can have a character be a robot for justice, if nothing else before, you know, people are going to sour on them. Jessika: You mean a veritable killing machine? Mike: Yeah. The other thing is that the core Dredd stories haven't really been reset. They're still going from 2000 AD, so at this point we have nearly 50 years of stories that are all canon. And the other thing is that they keep on aging Dredd in realtime. So, at this point he's absurdly old and they hand wave it away by he spends time in the Rejuva-pods or whatever they are. But as a result, he's the same guy who has seen everything that has gone on in the comics. [00:23:00] And as a result, he's matured and changed a bit. And it's kinda neat. So in the UK Dredd's a pretty big deal, but his presence in America isn't quite the same. Like UK comic magazines back then were very different from comics here in the states. So, when they decided to bring them over here across the pond, 2000 AD wound up working with this guy named Nick Landau, who a couple of years earlier had created tightened books to publish comic collections of Judge Dredd in the UK, and then was publishing more collections of other things. Landau had just created Eagle Comics to collect and publish Dredd stories and other 2000 AD stuff. Uh, here in the States in 1983, the Eagle series lasted for about three-ish-is years, and then it moved on to another publisher. And this is pretty much how Dredd existed in the states in the 80's and 90's; a publisher would pick up the rights, and then try to make them click with American readers, and then the [00:24:00] series would get canceled, and then someone else would pick them up and try to do it again. And arguably his most quote unquote mainstream moment was when DC comics published an 18 issue series from 94 to 96. I've only gotten through a couple of these issues and they don't quite bite like the originals. They feel more like an action sci-fi series. Some weird kind of sarcastic humor, but it doesn't quite translate the same way. It feels like a knockoff product, to be honest. I mean, honestly the best American adaptation I've seen is from the 2012 series that IDW did. And that condensed several of the iconic Dredd storylines from the original British run. So they were a little bit more palatable for American audiences, but basically American awareness of the characters generally stayed that level of, oh yeah, that sounds kind of familiar. And then he's never really been a household name, which was what the 1995 movie was trying to change. [00:25:00] Jessika: Yeah, well, it didn't change it for me, but I was also, you know, I was also nine in 1995. So. Mike: *Sigh* I was 14. Jessika: You're only a few years older - you say that like you're 90 now, by the way, every one for the record, Mike is 90. Mike: I am. Jessika: Since he's making a huge deal out of it. Mike: I'm waiting on my Rascal. Scooter Just gonna, just gonna drive through downtown Petaluma with my dogs in my side car. We're all gonna be wearing goggles and flight helmets. And you'll see me go by and just gol “RASCAL!” Jessika: My dude, you can do that now. Mike: Sarah has told me I can't do that yet. We've had this discussion. Jessika: Oh, that's too bad. Mike: Now that we've got the background out of the way, why don't we actually talk about what we're here to talk about? Which is the 1995 Judge Dredd movie. [00:26:00] Jessika: Here we are. Mike: Yeah. Do you remember those TV schedules that used to be in the back of the newspaper, they would show you like A) what was on the air that night and B) provide one sentence summaries of what the movies were? Do you remember those? Jessika: I do because I loved reading those. Mike: I know I did too. How would you summarize Stallone's Judge Dredd, if you were writing it up in that format? Jessika: Oh, need a throat clear for that. In a world where chaos reigns, one man stands between justice and lawlessness. But what happens when the Judge becomes the judged? Find out this Wednesday at 6:00 PM Pacific standard time, 9:00 PM Eastern on Spike TV. I just assume Spike TV would play that. Mike: Spike TV would be all over this. Are you kidding? Jessika: Yeah, no, exactly. That was the first television channel that I thought of that was like, yeah, they would [00:27:00] absolutely have this on like they'd have a Dredd marathon. Mike: God, what an absolute time capsule of a TV channel - is, Spike TV isn't around still, is it? I don't know. Jessika: I have no idea. I was my, my 90's brain just woke up and was like, this is what you say. Mike: God. I remember that was such a mid to late aughts TV channel. It was basically toxic masculinity, the TV channel. Jessika: Yeah. It was, it was either super masculine movies like this, or it was just a game show about people falling all over each other and just laughing at people. Mike: Oh yeah. Was it Most Extreme Challenge? Jessika: Most Extreme Elimination Challenge Yep. As I sit here and I know exactly what it, cause I didn't watch a million episodes of that. Mike: No I'm, that was the only reason that I would turn that fucking channel on. Jessika: Yeah. It's true. My brother and I would roll. Mike: No, so, okay. I just looked it up and we don't need to [00:28:00] actually record the sorry, uh, Paramount Network, formerly Spike, which is still used for the Dutch in Australian feed as an American, but you know, whatever, fuck Jessika: The Australians don't even listen to us. I'm leaving all of this in, and the Australians don't listen to us, yet. Oh God. They're going to listen to us now. And they're going to be like, oy yes we do. I can't, I'm not even going to try, not even to try to do some like, incredibly offensive Australian accent. Mike: No, no, don't do it. Jessika: No, no, I know about it. Mike: Okay. Let's go for an actual movie summary now. Jessika: Sure set in a, oh, sorry. Regular voice, Jessika. Set in a dystopian future complete with a densely populated metropolis and flying cars, order is dictated and carried out by people called Judges, whose job is to convict, judge, and punish those moving outside of the law. The punishments [00:29:00] are severe, being jailed or even killed for their transgressions. Stallone, who plays Judge Joseph dread is seemingly one of the most feared and respected judges until he is framed by a maniacal and presumed to be dead ex-judge Rico. Dredd has to prove his innocence in order to continue providing his particular brand of justice. Oh, and how can I forget about Rob Schneider? Whose main role in this film was to say Dredd's named really loudly. So they would get caught when they were trying to be covert. I mean, at least that's how it felt. Mike: Yeah, whenever I talk about this movie, I always sit there and reference how Robert Schneider is the worst choice to provide, you know, it's not even comic relief. It's like air quotes, comic relief. Schneider was really big at that time. Like, he had just come out of SNL and I never found them really to be all that funny. But, this was like at the [00:30:00] start of his whole 90's. I don't know. What would you call that movement? Jessika: God, it was like the stupid humor movement. Mike: Yeah, it was that Adam Sandler. Jessika: I talk like I'm a baby. Adam Sandler. I can deal with, to a certain extent. There are some movies, I'm just like, whatever, but I've liked him in some things even, but I feel like Will Ferrell is a result of Adam Sandler. I feel like Adam Sandler, birthed will Ferrell and I'm not happy about it. I do not like Will Farrell Mike: Man, I. Jessika: @ me Will Ferrell. I do not like you. Mike: Just watch, he's going to like angrily tweet and then we're going to get a bunch of, you know, I guess, angry gen X-ers I'll all up in our DMS. Jessika: OPress? Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that bad press wasn't just good press also, because it is. Mike: Yeah. And I mean, this was before Schneider was given starring [00:31:00] roles in movies like Deuce Bigalow, which I have yet to see a Rob Schneider movie that I don't find absolutely abhorrent for a number of reasons. Yeah. Jessika: Especially in retrospect. Mike: Yeah. I mean, he's not offensive in this movie, he's just not very funny and kind of useless, even though he's supposed to be the plucky comic sidekick, which, I mean, this was part of that era of buddy action cop movies, except just in a different setting. Jessika: Yeah. I don't know. It was just very grating. The humor Mike: Yeah. , Jessika: And forced. Mike: Yeah. So, your summary is spot on. There's also detours into the Cursed Earth where Dredd is wrongfully convicted. And then, this is something where they diverged from the comic lore, but they're traveling to the penal colony in Aspen, when actually the penal colonies are all off-world. So it's, you basically get sent there for hard labor, off-planet and it's not exactly described what, and then he has to come back from the Cursed Earth, after dealing with the [00:32:00] cannibalistic Angel Gang. And then there's the reveal that he's a clone, which at this point in time is not really a big deal. Like, everybody knows it in the lore and yeah, we get a climactic battle at the statue of Liberty. Also, Joan Chen shows up for no real reason other than to be a woman for Diane Lane to fight. Jessika: Yeah, exactly. Mike: But yeah, it's not a great movie. Jessika: No, no. Mike: But there are parts of it that I still really enjoy. Sarah and I wound up watching it together and all of the practical, special effects that they did are still so good and they look so good. And, and honestly the action scenes are pretty decent for, you know, a mid 90's movie, even where there's that bit with the flying motorcycles, where they're being chased and they knock off one of the Judges chasing them that bit, where he's falling into the bottomless abyss of Mega City looked [00:33:00] really good and I couldn't help, but think of Ninja Turtles 3, where on the other hand, the bad guy getting knocked off into the ocean looks like garbage. Jessika: Yeah, no, that, I was really impressed by that. Especially considering the timeframe it was in. Mike: Yeah. So this movie really tried to smash together a lot of those classic Dredd moments from the comic book. And it was trying to basically create something new while giving fans a lot of nods that they would appreciate. The funny thing is that it was really focusing on the story of Rico Dredd after he comes back from serving his prison time, but in the comic, he only shows up for a one-shot serial story. If I remember right where he comes back from serving prison time in a colony on Saturn's moon of Titan. So if I remember this, right, he's just this kind of one-off character who shows up pretty early in the Dredd stories. Like, I, [00:34:00] I don't think the Dredd stories had even been published for a year by that point. It's like the 30th issue or so, and then he's shot down by Dredd in a duel and the whole, the logic behind it is that he tries to get the drop on Dredd, but his reactions are slower because he's been operating in lower gravity for a while. Jessika: Interesting, but he's still supposed to be a clone, right? Mike: Yeah, he's he, it's originally noted that he's Dredd's brother. And then there's the whole club thing that, that shows up later on and all that, but he also looks way different from Armand Assante in the movie, I'm sending you an image, you can take a quick look and see what Rico Dredd looks like after his prison time in the comic. Jessika: Oh, you would not get those two confused. Mike: Yeah. It's um. Jessika: This guy's got this, guy's like a metal face. Now he's got a nice little head band with probably a laser coming out the top. And then he's got like, no nose any longer. He's just got metal over his nose. There's metal stuff going into his mouth. And like [00:35:00] half of his face just doesn't have skin anymore. And you can tell one of his eyes is blind. It's pretty wild. His hair is all crazy. He's not having a good hair day. It's a look. Mike: It's a look. Yeah. So the whole idea is that when you get shipped off to these colonies, you are basically surgically modified to survive in the environment. Jessika: Oh. Mike: Yeah. So, definitely not what we got in the movie. Jessika: No. You had a guy that actually looked a lot like Stallone. They did a pretty good job of that, if they were going for lookalikes. Mike: Yeah. They were both very fit dudes who had those very strong chin lines. And then they also gave them cosmetic contact lenses so that they would actually have blue eyes, which is why. Jessika: That's what I thought. Mike: When you look at Stallone, you're like, mm, pretty sure God didn't make those eyes. That color. Jessika: Yeah. It's not so bad from certain angles, but other ones you're like, wow, Snowpiercer what's up. Mike: Yeah, it looks [00:36:00] very weird when you're, especially when you're watching it in high-def these days, it looks unnatural. I'm not sure how it would look on a TV or in a movie theater in 1995. I'm a little curious because I didn't get to see it. I was too young to go see an R-rated movie back then, womp womp. But yeah, so likewise, the character of Hershey, who is Diane Lane's character, she first appeared in a 1980 story called the Judge Child, which is this it's this cool thing where it starts off as a road trip across the Cursed Earth, and the Angel Gang who we see in the movie shows up, and then it becomes this weird space opera as Dredd winds up chasing after the Angel Gang and the kidnapped Judge Child across multiple star systems, which again, talking about the weird absurdity of Judge Dredd. So, it's weird to see her in this movie because I always associate Diane Lane with Under the Tuscan Sun. I mean, I've never even seen that movie, but that's just always what I [00:37:00] think of when I see her. Jessika: Oh, same. I definitely see her in an Italian villa and I have not seen that either. Mike: Yeah. Although she did play Superman's mom in the DCEU. Jessika: Oh yeah. Mike: So there was that, her finest role, you know, when she gets sad about Superman with Lois Lane, and then it turns out to be a Martian green dude. Jessika: We're going to have so many movie stars, not happy with us. Mike: I know. Jessika: They'll just be crying in all of their money. It's fine. Mike: Oh, no two lame nerds on the internet were mean to me. I just, uh. Jessika: My nightmare. Mike: They made vaguely negative remarks about me. All right. Jessika: Oh, let me use this 50 to dry my tears. Mike: Anyway. Yeah, so [00:38:00] Diane Lane shows up in Judge Dredd, and she's like way more of a damsel in distress and then weirdly a romantic interest for Dredd than anything else. And that was really bizarre to see, because with the hindsight of the comics, that character in Dredd A) Hershey is like a bad-ass cop. She is a hardcore street Judge. But she and Dredd actually have often had kind of an antagonistic relationship based on differing perspectives about how the justice system should operate. Jessika: Oh, interesting. Mike: Yeah. And eventually, she goes on to be the Chief Judge. Jessika: Oh, good for her. Mike: Yeah, you know, she busted through that glass ceiling. Jessika: Man. It just took, you know, going through a third world war, ladies, this is what we have to look forward to. Just wait for the flying motorcycles. We'll be there. Mike: Well, you know, you don't have to cook because we're just recycling people at that point. So, you know, frees up a lot of time. [00:39:00] Jessika: Oh, perfect. Mike: You don't have to, don't have to stand in the kitchen and make all of us men folk roasts all day. Jessika: Oh, perfect. Well, dang. What will I do? Mike: Okay. overthrow the patriarchy, I guess. Jessika: Let's do it. Mike: Yeah. And then additionally, you know, Dredd himself was pretty different from what we had in the comics. The movie violated this key component of the character by spending a lot of time focused on Dredd out of uniform, which means that we got to see his face. And it's such a known thing that this is not something that Dredd does, but it's actually one of the first points in Dreads, Wikipedia article, if you would be so kind. Jessika: Sure. Dredd's entire face is never shown in the strip. This began and is an unofficial guideline, but soon became a rule. As John Wagner explained, it sums up the facelessness of justice. [00:40:00] Justice has no soul, so it isn't necessary for readers to see Dredd's face. And I don't want you to. Mike: Which I mean, I think that's actually a really cool defining aspect of the character. Jessika: And it's always scarier if you can't see what you're fighting. Mike: Yeah. Agreed. Jessika: I mean, that's basic horror film rule, you know, it's always scarier if you can't see what's chasing you. Mike: Yeah. I kind of equate it to the recent Alien movie that they did. Alien Isolation, where they explained the origin for the alien species. And I was sitting there and going, there is nothing that you could tell me that would be worse than what I come up with in my mind when you've got a really nebulous origin. Jessika: Exactly. Mike: And then I watched the movie and I was like, that's dumb. I'm going back to my original design. I like that better. Jessika: Yeah. It's like Signs was really scary until they brought that stupid alien life being in. And then I was like, well, there it goes. Mike: Yeah. [00:41:00] Curse you, Shamaylan! Judge Dredd is one of those movies where when you watch it, it feels like the people that were involved with making it really had a lot of fun, and were really passionate about what they were doing. Like I've got the making-of book, and you can actually see the set that they built basically on a patch of farmland that became the street for Mega City One. And it's crazy. It wound up having hundreds of neon signs after they built it. It looked like a living, breathing street from this strange city in the future. It was really cool. And likewise, there's that ABC warrior robot that we get to see a couple of times who looks absolutely incredible. And the costume designs are really cool. They don't quite work because you know, it's spandex, but it's very faithful to the comic. And, even the final scenes in the Statue of Liberty where you're in the lab and you've got all those clones being grown, I don't quite understand why the clones are [00:42:00] mostly grown, but we can still see their intestines, but they look really cool. Jessika: I agree. Yeah. Mike: That said, the movie had a lot of production problems. And in fact, it actually had to get re-cut and submitted to the NPAA five times in order to get just an R rating down from an NC 17. Jessika: Dang. Mike: And by the way, we need to talk about the fact that this movie is rated R and if you watch it, it does not feel like an R rated movie. It feels like maybe a PG 13 movie at this point, maybe. Jessika: Maybe, I mean, and that would just be for the violence, Mike: I mean, yeah, but, compared to what gets rated PG 13 these days? Jessika: Yes. Mike: I think if I remember right, one of the Aliens vs Predator movies, maybe both of them are rated PG 13 and they're way more violent and gory. Jessika: Really? Wow. Mike: I mean, I could be completely wrong. Jessika: Who rates these movies? I mean, not a real question. We don't need to get into that, but that's wild to me. Mike: We'll go on a very tiny side tangent, but. Highly recommend you watch the movie. This [00:43:00] film is not yet rated, which talks about the NPAA and the ratings board and how weird and secretive it is. And just a how dumb and arbitrary their system is. Jessika: I might watch that tonight. Mike: It's great. I highly recommend it. So there was an interview with Steven D'Souza, who was the guy who actually wrote the script for Judge Dredd. e was talking to Den of Geek, he shed some light on how the movies, problematic production wound up leading to this mess that we wound up receiving, if you would be so kind. Jessika: Why sure. Judge Dredd was actually supposed to be a PG 13 movie, the production company at the time, Synergy, they were having some financial troubles, so they didn't have any UK executives on location in England. And in their absence, the director, Danny Cannon, wanting to make it true to the comic book, was making everything more and more and [00:44:00] more violent. So when the movie was delivered to be cut, it was rated X and it was rated X four times. They say you can't appeal after four, four is all you get. Somehow the producer, Ed Pressman, managed one more time to get it rated R which actually wasn't a victory because this was supposed to be PG 13. They had made a deal with Burger King, oop. I think, and a toy company. And you can't advertise toys for an R-rated movie and no hamburger plays, wants toys for an R-rated movie. So they hamburger people and the toy people turned around and sued Disney, the distributor whoop. Mike: Hmm. Oops. Jessika: Well, Disney then said, we'll take this out of the director's hide because he signed a piece of paper saying he would deliver a PG 13, but Synergy who was releasing it through Disney at that point had never done [00:45:00] anything, but an R-rated movie, nobody in the entire company had ever had the experience of putting that piece of paper in front of a director. So they had to pay him. They couldn't withhold his salary for violating a legal promise they never asked him to make. Mike: I kind of love that. Jessika: Blunders. Mike: Yeah. That interview also notes that the scene where the reporter gets killed by Rico and he's framing Dredd. It was way more violent and gory, and it looked like something out of Robocop. And then additionally, there was the bit where Rico tells his robot to tear off the arms and legs of the council of five Judge that he's been working with. And he says, rip off his arms and legs and then save his head for last. And so it was originally supposed to be a scene where basically it cuts away to Rico walking away or something like that or shadows or something, and then you just hear the screams and that's it. But [00:46:00] apparently they made a full animatronic robot that had the arms and legs actually getting ripped off and like spewing blood. Jessika: Yikes, no. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Guys. Mike: Yeah. So this was clearly one of those things desires were not clearly communicated. So Stallone gave an interview to Uncut Magazine in 2008. And he talked about a bunch of the things that, that went wrong with that movie, including this weird story about Danny Cannon, where he said, I knew we were in for a long shoot when for no explainable reason, Danny Cannon, who's rather diminutive, jumped down from his director's chair and yelled to everyone within earshot. Fear me, everyone should fear me. Then jumped back up to his chair as if nothing happened. The British crew was taking bets on his life expectancy. Jessika: Yikes. Yeah, the guy's going to give himself a coronary. Holy moly. Mike: It reminds [00:47:00] me a little bit of the stories that were coming out of the Suicide Squad set. Jessika: Oh. Yeah, I'm hearing more and more stories of just things that actors are being put through on set, and it's just, I don't care who you are, you shouldn't have to deal with this bullshit while you're working. Mike: I don't envy them. Jessika: Yeah, I don't either. I mean, there has to be ways that doesn't hurt people to entertain us. Mike: Yeah. Back onto this topic of Judge Dredd itself, it was this movie that costs $95 million and that's in 1995. So adjusting for inflation, that's roughly $190 million in 2021 dollars. Jessika: Whew. Mike: For reference there's a bunch of MCU flicks that when adjusting for that inflation costs less than Judge Dredd did. The R rating in turn, and kind of the lackluster end product, resulted in $113 million at the box office worldwide. And that was a lot less than Stallone, and really everyone else, was hoping for, [00:48:00] they were legit hoping that this was going to be just a blowout success story, and they could make a franchise out of it. So we've already talked about how they were trying to make this into something that they can market to kids. And we still got some products that show that was the plan. There were a couple of associated products, like a junior novelization, and a comic adaptation of the movie from DC comics itself. And then a video game that's actually, it's not bad. It's like a side scroller and the movie story ends about, I think, halfway through. And then you go on to a bunch of different worlds and end up fighting those Dark Judges that I was talking about earlier, which is kinda cool. Yeah. It's fine. But anyway, none of these tie-in products really seemed to land. How did you feel about this film overall? I'm curious. Jessika: Is it bad to say a came across as a little cheesy? Mike: No, not at all. [00:49:00] Jessika: Like a nice wholly Swiss cheese. There were some mega plot holes that were very apparent. That kind of took me out of the experience saying that a lot this episode, but way to go guys. And it made me really overthink aspects of the storyline. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Like the whole, how did you not know where were clones? Did you not accidentally ever pick up the other person's gone and we're like, why can't I use this? If you have the DNA testing, it just, it didn't make a lot of sense. And how can you sequence two different guns if you only have one sequence of DNA? I don't get that either. Mike: Yeah. Part of that is just because it was 1995. DNA was still like a really hot topic for plots. It was new science. It was really exciting. I mean. Jessika: That's fair. Mike: We were in the throws of the OJ Simpson trial, and so DNA evidence was a really big thing there, but yeah. Jessika: Hot button item. You're right, I think, buzzword. Mike: And so that kind of goes into the whole [00:50:00] idea of clones as well, but that's an established plot line of Dredd itself. But I mean, like I remember, there's a bit where they focus on the flying Law Master motorcycle and they say, well, if you can ever get it to work, it will be yours. And they bust out and then there's several other flying Law Masters chasing after them. Jessika: Well, when they're talking about those motorcycles, I think they're trying to liken them to really bad quality, government issue, like these things are a piece of shit, but you can probably get em into the air, and have the worst model sitting there for the newbies to fuck around with. But I don't know, that's that was my takeaway from it just because I also remember, not that the cars are bad necessarily, the police cars, but it's like, they're stripped down to nothing, they're just like a car. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: None of the fancy shit. Mike: Yeah. Those, those good old Crown Vics. Jessika: Oh Yeah. And I think that part of it for me was the serious scenes, like the courtroom scene, especially mix in Rob Schneider in any of [00:51:00] those situations. And it was just a little much. Mike: Yeah, absolutely. Stallone played it really straight and really intense and it doesn't quite work. It feels almost like a high school drama production where you're watching those kids onstage, they're acting too hard. They've turned their acting dials up to 11 and you're like, okay buddy, we needed it like a seven. Jessika: I'm just imagining a man, like a child on stage, shaking. His arm is shaky. He's got a skull in his head and he was just screaming out lines from Hamlet. You're like, ooh, buddy, calm down. Mike: Yeah. Yurick can't hear you Hamlet. He's already dead. I think it's okay. Jessika: Womp womp. Mike: Yeah. My take on it, aside from the fact that it's a little bit too faithful and too earnest is that this reminds me of that situation where you take a bunch of different ingredients that you think are going to taste amazing and you've slapped them together into a sandwich. And then you realize the combination doesn't work, but yet you end up eating it anyway. [00:52:00] Jessika: Been there. Mike: Like, we talked about the sets, the makeup, the costumes, even the special effects, those are all great, but the script and then Stallone's performance really kind of do it a disservice, and even Sly has acknowledged that the movie missed the mark. So that earlier interview that I mentioned with Uncut Magazine, he had a really great point where he talks about how it didn't work. Jessika: I loved that property when I read it, because it took a genre that I love what you could term the action morality film, and made it a bit more sophisticated. It had political overtones. It showed how, if we don't curb the way we run our judicial system, the police may end up running our lives. It dealt with archaic governments. It dealt with cloning and all kinds of things that could happen in the future. It was also bigger than any film I've done in its physical stature and the way it was designed, all the people were dwarfed by the system and the architecture. It shows how insignificant [00:53:00] human beings could be in the future. There's a lot of action in the movie and some great acting, too. It just wasn't balls to the wall. But I do look back on Judge Dredd as a real missed opportunity. It seemed that lots of fans had a problem with Dredd removing his helmet because he never does in the comic books. But for me, it is more about wasting such great potential there was in that idea, just think of all the opportunities there were to do interesting stuff with the Cursed Earth scenes. It didn't live up to what it could have been. It probably should have been much more comic, really humorous and fun. What I learned out of that experience was that we shouldn't have tried to make it Hamlet. It's more Hamlet and eggs. That's so funny that I brought up Hamlet! I didn't read ahead. Mike: I was laughing about that actually. Yeah. And I mean, he's not wrong. I think he played it too straight and too serious. And they also tried to make it an action buddy comedy [00:54:00] movie, which it just, it doesn't quite work. Like the, the tone with Dredd is you have to walk a really fine line. They didn't stick to it this time. Yeah. I feel like it was trying to be extremely faithful to the source material, which always walked this very fine line tonally, and then it blew past it to create something that's just it's way too earnest. And over the top, it kind of reminded me of Jupiter Ascending. If you remember that movie. Jessika: I do. Mike: Yeah. It's this movie that has crazy high production values, a pretty great cast actually, and a really big story. And then it all combines into something that's honestly kind of underwhelming. Jessika: And forgettable, cause I kind of forget what that whole plot line of that movie is. And I think I've seen it twice cause I was like, I don't think I've seen this before. And I sat through the whole thing again. It's one of those movies. Mike: I just remember a lot of shirtless Channing Tatum and. Jessika: Oh, yeah, he wasn't at sea. I don't even know. Mike: Yeah. Do you have any more thoughts before we move on to [00:55:00] the 2012 remake kind of, it's not really a remake. It's just the 2012 movie. Jessika: No let's Rob Schneider, our way out of this. Mike: I'm not sure I liked that verb. Jessika: I was using it as: do something really stupid to get out of a situation. And I think I did it just by saying that. Mike: All right. How would you describe this movie? Give it, give another quick summary. Jessika: Mega City One. The future. There are still flying cars, but less of them. In a packed city rife with violence, Judge Joseph Dredd is assessing a new potential recruit to the force. This recruit isn't like the others. However, she is psychic; a mutant! In answering their first call, they inadvertently get themselves involved in a large scale drug operation and have to kill or be killed in order to survive. This film has no sympathy for innocent bystanders, who are killed by the dozens each [00:56:00] scene. And the Judges are swift to kill any who might oppose them. They finally escape using their wits and these psychic's ability, all while taking down a drug ring. Ta-da, all in a day's work. Mike: Dread came out right around the same time, I think a little bit after, as this movie out of, I think Thailand called The Raid. Which it's about a police force. That's basically working their way up through a skyscraper. And it's another really intense action movie. It's got really kick-ass action scenes. It's really good. And the sad thing is it's just that and Dredd have a similar plot based on that, but it's also very different. So there were a lot of unfair comparisons to that at the time. Jessika: I see. Mike: How do you feel this movie compares with the Stallone one? Jessika: It was definitely more serious and more bloody, for sure. It really leaned into the death and carnage aspect [00:57:00] becoming more and more creative and destructive as the film progressed. Like was it strictly necessary to aim towards and blow up an entire floor of a densely inhabited building? I dunno. It was kind of hard to watch some times, it was pretty graphic. I did like that it took on a more serious tone though. And I think the reason that it's so hard to watch for me is more for the social implications. Like, when the film made it clear that vagrancy could carry a similar sentence to other more serious crimes. Mike: Right? Jessika: Which was really wild. Mike: Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like it did a lot more subtle world-building with moments like that, or when they're describing the Mega Block that they're investigating and it's noted that there's only a 3% employment rate. It's weird because it's such a violent movie and don't get me wrong, I think the action scenes are just incredible. They look great. But at the same time, it's a more [00:58:00] subtle movie in a lot of ways than the Stallone one was. Jessika: Yeah. Definitely it's scarier. Like the idea of it is more, it seems more real and in your face, and for me, it definitely put a spotlight on how scary policing can be to targeted groups. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: And this might be an extreme example, but how extreme is it really? Mike: Yeah. And it's interesting because you and I talked about this before, this is a movie that is very, it's very binary with its morals. Like there's only the good guys and the bad guys. This isn't this, isn't one of those movies where you sit there and you watch it and are really given a lot of moral things to consider. There's not a lot of philosophy here, but it doesn't sit there and say that Dredd and the Judges themselves are in the right. It's basically showing that there is a force who is basically the gang that is running the apartment block that they are in, which is headed up by a fucking terrifying Lena Headey and A), [00:59:00] they really uglied her up. Which, I was actually really impressed. I didn't recognize her because this came out right after game of Thrones had just had its first season. I think maybe its second season had hit, but I mean what a stark contrast between her in the mama role and then Cersei Lannister. Jessika: Stark. I like what you did there. Mike: Hey, was totally intentional. Or that was totally, that was totally intentional. I totally did that on purpose. Jessika: Okay. Mike: Like I said, there is no wiggle room. They sit there and they basically say no, this woman is a monster, and she does need to be taken down. You know, to the movies credit, the judges, don't really mow down innocent bystanders, it's all the thing of, no, they're going up against bad guys who have guns and are trying to kill them. But at the same time, it does also acknowledge how they aren't completely in the right either. Like there's a scene where they take shelter in an apartment. And Olivia Thirlby's character reads the mind of this woman who they're basically holding up to give them shelter for a few minutes. [01:00:00] And she realizes that, oh, this woman's baby daddy is one of the gang members that they just killed a few minutes ago. Jessika: She herself had killed that guy. Mike: Yeah. And I appreciated that. There are those moments where it takes a more mature look at, maybe everything that's going on isn't great. And then there's that moment at the end where Anderson sits there and talks about how, when she lets the hacker character go, because she realizes that he is just as much of a victim as a lot of the other people in the block are, even though he's been aiding Ma Ma. Jessika: Yeah. And then I like how Dread tries to call her on it. She's like, I've made the judgment. He's a victim. Mike: Yeah. And I thought that was great. Also, that actor is the guy who played General Hux in the Star Wars movies that we got recently. Jessika: I thought I recognized him and I could not place him, and I was too lazy to go on IMDB. Mike: But yeah, thought it was a much more, it's weird to call that movie subtle, but I felt like there were a lot of nice little subtle moments in it. [01:01:00] And I really liked how A) Ma Ma was a genuinely frightening villain, especially because you never see her flying off the handle or being over the top or anything like that. She delivers everything with this really kind of scary, calm, in which we see in the first few minutes, when she tells her officer to skin, some guys who were selling drugs on her territory without her permission. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: And then the order is given after they've been skinned, to be given hits of slow-mo, which is the drug throughout the movie that slows down perceptions of time. So they were thrown off the top story of this apartment block. And basically they have this long, awful, painful plummet into the courtyard below. Jessika: God, that's gotta be so terrifying. Mike: And that really set the tone for who we were dealing with, which I thought was incredibly effective. Jessika: I thought they did such a nice job on the cinematography on that, by the way, when they did those scenes with the slow-mo and they [01:02:00] had it kind of shimmery and they put you in the mindset of the person having used the slow-mo, and I thought that was such a good technique. Mike: So yeah, and the whole thing was that they released this movie in 3D. So, you can tell that those scenes were filmed specifically for 3D cinematography. Jessika: That makes so much sense. Mike: I actually saw this movie opening night in the theaters and A) I remember tweeting about it and saying that movie was way too good for the theater to be that empty on a Friday night. But I remember that was the first, and really that's the only time, I've ever enjoyed a movie in 3D because I felt the 3d actually added something as opposed to just being a cheap gimmick to ring an extra couple of bucks out of my wallet. Jessika: That's usually how I feel about it. Mike: Yeah. But I liked how Olivia Thirlby's character Judge Anderson was actually way less of a damsel in distress than Diane Lane's character Judge Hersey. And then on top of that, a lot of the [01:03:00] superhero movies rely on that whole female heroes have to fight female villains trope that it always feels like they don't get to participate in the end boss battle. And I thought it was really cool how Anderson wound up using her powers to A) escape, her captors, B) actually rescue Dredd, and then C) really be a giant aid to him throughout the movie. She felt like a viable, real character as opposed to just kind of, window trim. Jessika: Yeah. Agreed. I was nodding vigorously when you were talking about that, because I am an absolute agreement. I was a little worried when she first got captured, cause I was like, oh, here we go, so fucking typical. But then when she was actually using her powers and she was getting out of the situation herself, it was like, okay, fine. You got this. You're fine. Mike: Yeah. On top of that, the intro to the movie we get is so tight and efficient. And aside from the intro where we get a chase scene, where we see slow-mo and effect, we see how brutal Dredd is himself. We also get [01:04:00] the intro to Anderson, where she's demonstrating her powers by basically reading the mind of Dredd from behind a two way mirror. And there's that great line about like, oh, well, you know, there's another Judge with you. He's male. I sense control and anger and then something, something more something. And then the judge cuts her off just like, that's enough, that's fine. And I'm like, cool. So we've got a really good summary of who Dredd himself is. Okay. We get it now. This is all we need. Jessika: Yeah. It was a really good narrative tool. I did like that. Mike: Yeah. And then, in the comics, Anderson actually won is a pretty big ally of dread himself. And she's also never romantic interest, but she winds up being key to defeat those monster movie versions of the Judges. And actually, it's been a little while since I read this, but if I remember right when she first confronts Judge Death, who is the leader of the Dark Judges, she winds up, trapping him inside her own mind because he's this psychic entity. And so I was really happy that they took a strong character and [01:05:00] kept her really strong. Jessika: It's good to hear that she also had a really strong role within the comics. Mike: And then the other thing is that I kind of liked how they had Dredd himself be a little bit more subtle. Like, Hey, we never haven't take off his helmet, which I thought was great. And I thought Karl urban, I mean, how did you feel about Karl Urban as Dredd compared to him? Jessika: I thought he was great. And I think I, it would've made less sense if he had taken off his helmet just as far as the character goes. And honestly, I think in this situation, there wasn't much room for him as a character to have his helmet off because they were pretty in a battle mode. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: The whole movie, truly, except for the introductory first few minutes. Mike: Yeah. And I liked the bit where, so Anderson loses her helmet pretty early on and Dredd actually calls her out on it. And he says, you're not wearing your helmet. And she goes, oh, well, the helmet interferes with my psychic abilities and you just go solo bullet and then that's it. That's Jessika: Yup. Mike: I thought that was great. Jessika: Yup. He'll give her the advice he will give, but he's not going to [01:06:00] tell her to do it, which I thought was good. Mike: Yeah. I'm curious. We're going to get to this in a minute about like how it is through the 2021 line. But did you enjoy the movie? Jessika: I think for me, because I'm such an empath, it was a little bit too much innocent blood death. Mike: Okay. Jessika: Even just like, they didn't need to kill the vagrant, it, that was a very like, oh, the gates closed. And the Vagrant just happened to be sitting there and he got squashed and they both kind of looked at it like, well, guess we don't have to deal with that. And I was like, well, fucking hell guys, come on. Mike: Yeah. And I mean, at the same time, from my perspective, and I understand where you were coming from with this, but from my perspective, it was kind of the embodiment of that weird absurdist, gallows humor that is often prese

The future of commerce is being built all around us, and while so much of the industry changes on a daily basis, there are still some fundamental truths that anchor brands and allow them to find success in the digital and retail worlds. On this roundtable episode of Up Next in Commerce, I got to dig into exactly what those foundational elements are with Mike Black, the CMO of Profitero, and Diana Haussling, the VP and General Manager of Digital Commerce at Colgate-Palmolive.This was such a great discussion that touched on so many different topics that brands big and small should be paying attention to. For example, what are the three key levers that influence ecommerce sales? How should you be developing KPIs that will actually mean something and lead to more profitability and growth? Why is omnichannel the way of the future and what channels should companies be investing in? Mike and Diana have the answers, which they have gathered through long and impressive histories in the ecommerce world — Mike worked at Staples and Nielsen, and Diana has held roles at places like Campbell's, General Mills, and Hersheys. These two really know their stuff and they were so much fun to talk to. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did!  Main Takeaways:Pulling the Right Levers: There are three basic levers that influence ecommerce sales: availability, findability, and conversion tactics. If you can't ensure that you reliably have products to offer people, that those people have an easy way to find the products, and that they are given reasons to actually make a purchase, you won't be able to grow or increase profits. You Reap What You Sow: Being a first-mover on any platform is one of the investments that has the highest potential payoffs. Companies that took Amazon and Instacart seriously from the get-go have created a huge advantage for themselves in the ecommerce space. By having a head start in one place, you also free yourself up to explore elsewhere while your competition tries to keep up in the first spot you've already dominated.You Want Them to Want You: As a brand, you have to firmly establish a value proposition to present to customers, especially when you are trying to extract information or gather data about them. Give customers concrete reasons to want to engage with your brand and earn their trust so that they are more likely to keep coming back. Then use the data they give you to provide even better experiences and products over and over.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hello, everyone. And welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at mission.org. Today, we are back with an awesome round table with some amazing folks. First up, we have Diana Haussling, who currently serves as the VP and General Manager of Digital Commerce at Colgate-Palmolive. Welcome.Diana:Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited for this conversation.Stephanie:Me too. And next we have Mike Black, who's the CMO of Profitero. Mike, welcome to the show.Mike:Thank you very much. Also, very excited.Stephanie:Yeah. This is going to be a good one. I can just feel it. I can see the energy between you guys. I can see you got a lot to say. So, it's going to be a good one. So, I would love to start as I always do with a bit of background so people know who we're chatting with. So, Diana, maybe if you could start with… I see you have a long history in the world of CPG work for… I mean the most well-known brands that I can think of, and I was hoping if you can kind of go through that journey a bit?Diana:Yeah. So, I've been lucky enough to work at four major CPG organizations. I cut my teeth with Hershey in sales and really was able to understand, not only retail, but direct customer selling. Moved over to General Mills where I stiffed my toe in the water in marketing. Loved working on those brands and getting a taste of a larger organization. And then I shifted to Campbell's where I spent the bulk of my time. Campbell's will always have a special place in my heart.Diana:I spent a lot of times there, ping-pong back and forth between marketing and sales. I created a couple of roles for myself. One of which was the lead of e-commerce, where I established the e-commerce organization there before leaving and coming to my new love, Colgate-Palmolive. Super excited to be part of the Colgate family. I lead a digital commerce team called the Hive. It had that name before I got there. But I'm attributing it to the Beyonce now that I'm there.Stephanie:I love that.Diana:I'm so super excited to be at Colgate. There's just a ton of energy and growth around e-commerce and our primary focus is on digital transformation which is a perfect segue for this conversation.Stephanie:Yes. I can't wait to get into that. All right, Mike, a bit about you.Mike:Yeah. So, I started my career in retail. I started my first real job was at Staples, the office products company. And I was responsible for public relations there. Opening new stores in different markets, and really got a firsthand look at how retailers, traditional retailers were being disrupted by e-commerce. The time that I was at Staples was right at the time that Amazon started to make its ways. And I could see the impact of that just in the way that Staples was going to market, and they started to really dial up their own e-commerce efforts to combat.Mike:So, it was really interesting to see that pivotal moment inside from a retailer, classic brick and mortar retailer go through that transformation. So, I started my career there, then I started working in startups. And I eventually found my way to Nielsen. So, I worked in the part of Nielsen where we tested new product innovations for CPGs and worked in their measurement and analytics. And while I was at Nielsen, that's my first exposure to e-commerce and first exposure to this new emerging space of analytics.Mike:And I knew this was the place I wanted to be. It was in the e-commerce space, the intersection of e-commerce and data analytics, and that led me to Profitero where I am now. And we're getting to work with smart people like Diana who is someone I listen to her speak, and then I take notes. And then I sort of borrow some of her wisdom, and she's someone I'm always learning a lot from.Diana:Right back at you, Mike. And if you don't follow him on LinkedIn, you should, because he leads all social for Profitero, which isn't in his CMO title.Stephanie:Wow. I like this. Diana's like your hype woman. So, this is a good match we have here.Mike:The feeling is mutual.Stephanie:Yeah. That's awesome. So, Diana, I mean I'm thinking about you starting an e-commerce team at Campbell's. And then coming to Colgate where they already kind of have one set up, and I'd love to hear a bit about what is it like now versus then? Because I can just imagine you being like, “This is important everyone and I need some budget for it and this is going to be a thing.” Whereas now, it's like obvious. Like, “Yeah. Jump in. Let's go deep and spread the word.”Diana:Yeah. I think, and I'm sure this will ring true to a lot of my fellow CPGers and the struggle on the e-commerce business. If you're at an organization, and this is a completely new space, but you have leadership that definitely sees the potential and the opportunity, it really becomes on you to not only operationalize, but really help leaders understand how to translate e-commerce, how to translate digital to a P&L, to growth projectors, to a strat plan. All those things CPG people are really comfortable with.Diana:And then also to really think about not only what your org needs to be like to get things off the ground, but where it needs to go in the next three years. And typically, you're not in the position where the organization truly understands how to make that work. So, there is a kind of this hybrid role that digital commerce folks have to play in emerging organizations where they're really helping folks navigate, what IT support do I need? What supply chain support do I need? Where should everything sit?Diana:And you can do it on your own, but you can also partner. So, there's a number of groups you can partner with. I happen to know that Profitero has done a lot in this space, and they have, basically, a journey for organizations that you can leverage. But it really is like starting from scratch and building a case for growth. I think the biggest question that you get when it comes to just starting up in an organization is how is this incremental to the business?Diana:And my pushback to that always is, it's not about incrementality. Incrementality is a bonus. It really is all about protecting your base business, going where consumers are going, and ensuring that you future proof your organization for the reality of what our new world is, which is omni. It's slightly different when you come into an organization like Colgate who already has a established e-commerce team or Center of Excellence.Diana:I definitely feel like I came to the land of the willing. Everyone, from the top down, is really excited and energized by the space. And that it's energizing, but it also means you have to redirect all of those good intentions and positive energy to the right focus and the right goal. So, some of the work when you're in a more established organization is really, how do I harness all of those resources when they are abundant? And make sure they're spent in the right places and they deliver. Because there's going to come a time where leadership is going to look back on that cash that they threw in e-commerce, and they're going to say, "What did I get for it?" And you better have delivered on it.Diana:I think the other piece is making sure you understand how to integrate across the organization. It's important to have a strong center, but it's even more important to make sure everybody understands the role that they play in digital, in e-commerce regardless of if they're on the badass teams like the Hives of the world.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean the one thing I hear a lot of brands struggling with though are around metrics. I mean from working at bigger companies in the past, I've seen people kind of come up with KPIs in a way that, it's kind of made up. Stephanie:So, when thinking about big and small brands thinking through like KPIs and metrics, feels like kind of a messy world where when you get to the bigger organizations, some of them can start to feel like they're just kind of being forced. Like, "Oh, see, we have it. And if you look in three years, maybe it's like not even relevant. And then the smaller companies are like, "Well, how do we even start?"Stephanie:And so, I'm wondering, how do you go about even thinking about developing KPIs, thinking about brand building, thinking about conversions. Is there some kind of allocation you had going into it of like, "Here's what should be spent on just holding down the fort, and here's what should be spent on acquiring new customers and thinking through the LTV and everything."Diana:For me, that's a marriage between two points. It's the external data and viewpoint. So, where do you have an actual right to win? Where are the white space opportunities? And where are their growth that you're not getting your fair share of? Really understanding that industry landscape is really critical to forming your strategy.Diana:What you want to avoid is just forming a strategy that's based off of internal goals and objectives, because you may not be able to deliver against that. It's a marriage between the two. Then, it's getting really clear internally on what winning looks like. There is a high cost to acquisition, but there also is a huge penalty if you don't ride the momentum and the wave of growth while it's happening.Diana:I use Skype and Zoom during the pandemic as an example of that. Skype had a foothold on the industry. Zoom came in out of nowhere and won the pandemic. You don't want to be Skype. So, how do you ensure that you position yourself and your brands, so you not only understand what the CEO and the board wants you to deliver, but also you're pushing on what are the right levers in order to get there? Because your brick and mortar business is not going to mirror your e-commerce business. It's going to be slightly different.Diana:And then you have to understand those points where there's intersection. So, right now, we're seeing growth across all modalities or modes of shopping. So, there is this real digital impact on the physical brick and mortar footprint. And the onus is on the digital commerce team to make sure they understand what that impact can do, and they're not only influencing the KPIs that drive e-commerce, but they're helping the brick and mortar business understand the KPIs they need to maintain competitive edge. But also to hold their shelf space, their promo space, and their capacity within the total retailer environment.Mike:Yeah. Just to build on what Diana said. I've noticed a shift just in vocabulary and positioning in the last probably three months with e-commerce leaders. They used to really talk about e-commerce as e-commerce, and it was really about winning in that channel. And I've noticed this language shift towards now repositioning around this idea of digitally influenced sale, and taking credit for all the work that you do online that drive sales.Mike:And you think about it, most, and it's true. Most shopping experiences are happening much… Even if you go in a store, you're researching online, you're looking at content. You're doing a search to see if it's even available at your local Target. And what comes up in that digital experience is going to dictate whether you go to that store or not. So, it's just so much more impact that I think goes into your e-commerce that I don't think e-commerce leaders were really fairly taken credit for. But I noticed this, Diana, you probably… And it sounds like you're starting to speak this languages.Mike:It's like almost every sale is digitally influenced now. And so, that investment, I think it breaks down the barriers between the brick and mortar teams when they start to realize that their success isn't independent. It isn't just e-commerce and I don't have to care about it. Actually, will have a full cycle, and you see some retailers, really, I believe the sticking point comes when you have a retailer like Walmart who starts to say, "Hey, you have to talk to me in the language of omnichannel."Mike:And now, when they set that tone and being as influential as you are, I see them starting to drive this different consensus. So, I think the metrics have changed in some ways, the language has changed and I think we're starting to reframe that it isn't just e-commerce, but just commerce now. And I think that's going a long way.Stephanie:Yeah. That is why we label the podcast, Up Next in Commerce, because we knew, we saw the writing on the wall, so just several notes, we were first. So, how are you going about even thinking about that tracking? I mean if you're saying a sale is digitally influenced, in my head I'm like, "How? How would you even know that?" So, what are some ways, either Mike that you see brands kind of attacking that problem or Diana, how's Colgate thinking about that?Diana:Mike, you got this one. This is your [crosstalk].Mike:Yeah. I'd say like basically, I mean the way that we think about your metrics really goes down to the levers, right? The levers that influence your sales in e-commerce, really comes down to like three basics. And there's some, the one is the first lever. Most important is that you're available. So, that your product is even listed and it's not out of stock. That was a major issue last year, and a lot of brands are still feeling that repercussion, and that has a lot of impact.Mike:So, if you go to Amazon, and you're looking for a particular product, it's not there. You better believe consumers are going to switch, and we saw that switching, and that switching is very painful online, because the loyalty can go, and then you don't have that repeat. So, first and foremost you think about, "Okay, we got to be available." It's just like being in store. You got to have the product there on the shelf.Mike:Then, the next big lever is being findable. And that's what's really interesting, when you're in a traditional store, you walk into a store, you knew that your product, you sold it in at the beginning of the year, the planogram. That, yeah, your product was going to be on the shelf, and they're just going to replace it. But in the digital store that changes every day, and we've done like 24-hour video views of search results on Amazon, and the products are just changing constantly shifting.Mike:And so, findability is really being keen to what terms your customers going to search for, and then being there all the time in the top of the results, and we have seen that if you're not on page one, and sometimes not even in page, in the first five spots, you might as well not even be there, because you're not findable. So, that's like your second lever.Mike:And then your third is really about your conversion levers. Having that content and having those reviews, and that's probably one of the most transferable things between the online and the offline experience, because there's so much discovery and learning and research is being done, and that's one of the things that Amazon has done a great job and recognized, they've given consumers so much real estate, so much space. Places for videos, place for content.Mike:And I think most of us, if we're going to look for a new product, we're going to start on Amazon. We're going to soak in that information and make informed decisions. So, if you look at it, it's all right. Well, my end game has got to be available. I got to be findable, showing them a search. I have to have good content. And then if those things are true, you start to gather metrics, and that's actually what Profitero is doing is we're able to help brands understand across all the sites you're selling. Are they available? Are they findable? Are they converting? And ultimately what we know is if you pull those levers, and you optimize those levers, your sales are going to grow, and you're going to outpace the competition.Mike:And to Diana's point, the very, very important thing that grounds all this is having a sense of your competitive growth, because you need to be able to define, like Diana said, not define success in your own terms. But you have to be able to see how your competitors are growing in that category, and if you look at 2020, everybody grew, pat yourself on the back. But if you knew that your competitor grew at like 2x or 3x, that's a wake-up call, there's something you're not doing that they're doing. And so, it's really important that you balance those tactical levers of the shelf with just this overall having sales metrics and not just looking at your own. And these are all data points that are now available through technology and Diana can speak about how they're actioned.Diana:Yeah. I would say the digital commerce starter kit is definitely, first and foremost, digital shelf health and discipline. That's a game changer. If you're not winning there, and you're not going to win, we spend so much time as marketers really focusing on our packaging and understanding the importance and the value of packaging.Diana:Well, in this new world, the digital shelf is your new packaging. It's your new end cap. It's your new aisle. So, how do you think about digital shelf and the discipline there really is going to translate into your competitive set, because now consumers can define what that competitor set is. It's going to really define your conversion rates. Does your content help consumers really understand how to use your product?Diana:And it's also going to impact your ratings and reviews. Does your content enable your consumers to have the experience that they're expecting when they see you online? So, it really does fuel all of the potential for your growth. And I said once you have that starter kit up and running, then you really have to take a step back, and think about, what are the other KPIs? We tend to really focus on marketing and sales when it comes to digital commerce. But this game is won and lost with supply chain, IT, and finance.Diana:So, starting back with supply chain, IT, and finance and setting yourself up to be profitable, to be deliverable, and to be flexible is really how you can break away from the pack.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. What are some surprises? And maybe Mike this is a question for you. What are some surprising platforms or channels when you're talking about, everyone did well, but some brands maybe did double or triple compared to other ones? What are some surprises there that you're seeing or things that are happening right now, you're like, "This platform's kind of popping up or people are pulling off of this one?"Mike:Yeah. Well, just specifically in terms of platforms, I think, well, in terms of like retail platforms, I think part of it is I think last year was really about the relevance of certain platforms jumped up. So, I think most brands that took e-commerce seriously, took Amazon very seriously from the get-go, I think last year Instacart became the platform that everyone's, especially in CPG space said, "Okay, this is serious now." People were going there first and foremost, it was a lifeline in terms of getting delivery.Mike:And suddenly now, what that creates is an opportunity to be first in market. And I think there's an advantage with any platform to be the first mover, and there's reasons why. Amazon's a good example of a platform that favors brands that have good sales history. So, if you excelled, really, if you were like the first let's say pet brand a couple years ago to rock Amazon, what happened is that you were excelling at all your execution, your sales are going up, and you start to organically just get higher placement, because Amazon favors brands that are relevant.Mike:And so, if you're really selling, they're going to give you that top space. And you see that same dynamic in Instacart, and in grocery too, because what happens is on a grocery site, people usually buy groceries off a list. And so, the first time they place orders on an Instacart or grocery, they're building their list. And then the next time it's a reordered list. So, there's a huge advantage to be a first mover on a platform and to build that purchase history, because it drives your repeat rates.Mike:And so, what we saw last year was just a lot of brands stepping up, and saying, "You know what? We're going to capitalize this. We're going to be early. We're going to invest in ads. You were going to get it, get that top of mind share." And I think they're going to reap the rewards now for the rest of year. So, you can look at it from a platform perspective, sometimes being first to market on these platforms, taking e-commerce seriously can give you a long-term sustainable advantage.Stephanie:I wonder if consumers are changing because of this past year or two, it seems like consumers are looking for the newer thing, the D2C company that's kind of like just saw it on Instagram. I feel like even myself, I go to Amazon, I see a lot of brands that I know. I'm kind of like, "Ah, keep scrolling." I've known of these brands for 10 years. Of course, they're number one. They've been around a long time. Let me find this deodorant that just popped up. Oh, cool. It's natural. It has all the things that I want, but it might be pretty far down or I'm even getting to a place where I'm kind of skeptical that Amazon might not even have it. And I might just need to go to the website or maybe go to, I don't know, Target and browse through and try and find it. What are you guys thinking around that?Diana:I love everything that you're saying there, but the insights background in me is super excited around the fact that we all went through a life change at the same time. So, if you think about that, typically, when you have a baby, your consideration set changes, your lifestyle changes, which are open too. New households with second babies tend to buy a washing machine within that first week that they bring that baby home, because they're like, "Crap, I'm not dealing with all this laundry on my own."Diana:But we all went through that change, collectively had a baby at once and changed how we operate, how we think, what we're open to, what our consideration set is. So, insights teams out there should be real hype right now, because it's an opportunity for them to really take a deep dive in and rethink brand positioning and audiences. So, exactly what you're talking about, people are more open or more exposed or they realize how connected they are to certain brands, and then they were willing to go direct to that brand to purchase those items to ensure that they were getting, and they're going to sign up for subscription because they're not going to be out of that brand like they were, toilet paper, those first few weeks of the pandemic.Diana:So, I think it's a huge opportunity for brands to really think through, really around who your audience is, your target audience is? Are you capturing them? So, this is your defense strategy. Am I getting them? They're switching from platform to platform. I was getting them when they were going in the brick and mortar store, am I getting them when they're going into Instacart? Is my item showing up? So, making sure you're getting that first basket because the first basket is everything.Diana:Then, there should be a real acquisition strategy. Who do I have the right to go after because now they're open to me, they're open to my brand or they're open to new things and ideas? And that's where brands can really leverage their suite of their portfolio to really drive that cross shop. So, I think this is a huge opportunity if brands jump on it to really connect with consumers. I never used to work out before the pandemic, but then when I was stuck at home, in the same room that I sleep in, and then working in. I was like, "Well, I need to do something."Diana:Peloton got me. I don't like working out. I like the community. I like the gamification. I want to pretend that I'm one of their instructors with the jewelry on and super cool. And I'm not, so they totally got me. And now I'm working out three days a week. That's a whole habit that I never had before, and so it's just ripe for opportunities for brands to not only grow within their traditional channels, but to acquire new consumers in new channels.Stephanie:Yeah.Mike:Yeah. Just to build on that. There's no single consumer anymore, and there's no single retailer. I think there's, me personally in my own house, takes… We shop at eight different retailers to stock our house now online. There's certain things that Target does well, there's certain things Amazon does well. There's certain missions, when I'm in discovery mode like you described, yeah. When I want to go find something and be inspired, I might look at Amazon.Mike:When I have a mission where I just need to stock up, I might go to Walmart. I might go to BJ's or Costco. So, what's really interesting and what's really challenging is you can't just… The brands that are going to win are the ones that can do this well at scale effectively. They recognize that their consumer is everywhere, that they're shopping for different, in different occasions. Convenience, different factors, and they realize like you have to be everywhere, you want to be available and you want to show up.Mike:And I think that's the next play, and that's what makes omnichannel really exciting is you have those brands that maybe nailed Amazon, and they're comfortable, but the next level of this game is, all right, now we have to operationalize this at scale across all our retailers teams, and those brands that are on top of that in making those driving that change, internally to be there everywhere. Those are going to be the ones are going to pick up that market share in the next year, and next two years.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean how do you think about for brands needing to be everywhere? I mean I'm thinking about like you said, the shopper, when I'm at Costco, I'm in a different mindset. And I might want to see a slightly different version of a product whereas when I'm on Amazon or when I'm in Target which feels higher end maybe than a Walmart. How would you think about a brand should handle that now that they have to be everywhere, but also have very different consumers everywhere in a different mindset depending on where they're shopping?Diana:I mean that's where portfolio roles and retailers segmentations really come into play. It's not the sexy work, but it's the work that has to be done. And it can't just be done at a very high level anymore, it really has to be done at the SKU level, because there are some multi-packs they're going to pop in certain modalities at certain retailers, there's some SKUs that just have a better fit. The brand teams that are able to really get that portfolio role and customer segmentation right are going to be able to invest to win, because as retail media costs grow, the cost of service grow, dollars, that bucket of dollars hasn't gotten any bigger. So, it's about being smarter about how and where you invest and really thinking thoroughly through how what you're expecting to get from that dollar.Diana:So, sometimes it's going to be a ROAS, sometimes it's going to be data, sometimes it's going to be something else. But really having clear business objectives for every dollar that's spent.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. Mike, anything to add?Mike:Yeah. No. I think, Diana, like portfolio strategy is it's funny like there's been this like sea change I think when early stages of e-commerce or at least my observation, there's so much excitement that you get the marketing teams are just spending dollars, right? It's about growth. We're just going to buy some ads. And then all of a sudden, you see this diminishing returns. All of a sudden the things you were spending ads on, oh, they're always out of stock or they're getting de-listed.Mike:And that's a symptom and really it's like this idea, and you mentioned Diana, it's like marketing and supply chain are the best friends in the e-commerce. It's a weird thing because I'm a marketer, and you think, but it has to be because unless… You almost have to flip the funnel. And I thought it's like you got traffic, you get conversion. And then you get to like profitability. You have to flip it. And I think that's the flip now is thinking about your portfolio from consumer dimension, profitability dimension across your retailers. If you don't set those clear lines up, you don't set that definition up, this has a downstream effect.Mike:And you see this a lot on retailers where it's like, "Okay. Well, I have the same products everywhere, so what happens?" Well, if Walmart drops the price, Amazon drops prices and suddenly that thing that you're spending ad dollars on, you can't even, it's not even there. So, I think this is like the next generation is like almost like, "All right, let's break it back. Let's work backwards now. Let's start fresh, and let's build that from the portfolio."Mike:And then, once we make that clean, we're just going to see this uplift and our cost to serve, our cost of marketing is going to be super-efficient versus just throwing dollars at it without a strategy.Diana:That's not just for the manufacturers. I also feel really strongly that that benefits the retailers. They don't want to comp prices back and forth. They want a unique value proposition for their consumers. So, how can you help the retailers achieve their objectives? If Kroger's going after young households, and young families, what's your solution to help them go after them? If Target's going after the black consumer, how are you helping them capture as many black guests as possible? How are you really thinking about not only the strategy, so it benefits you, so it also really does align with your retailer strategy?Diana:That's how you create a win-win scenario, and you avoid the competitive pricing pressures that we're all experiencing right now.Stephanie:Yeah. How do you find a good partnership with these retailers? Because I'm sure when they have so many brands they're working with and everyone probably wants to talk with them a little bit differently, and they have different ways that they want to help them or work with them, how do you think a successful partnership looks like or what does that structure look like?Diana:I think this is why the digital commerce space has to exist in this kind of hybrid world, because I feel like marketers take a really consumer human first mindset. Sales people tend to be very like sales for sales focus. In the middle you have to be this hybrid. I do take a customer first approach to an extent because you have to understand your customer strategies. Target's earnings call just came out this week or last week, and they talked about how 90% of all their sale is digital or physical are coming from stores.Diana:That's an insight for me to strategy. So, if I want to win at Target, I've got to understand how they tick, how they operate, and how I can help support their strategies, and their executions. So, it's really that intersection between, what our brand teams are trying to accomplish? Our sales teams targets, and our retailer strategies, and where we can actually play.Diana:From a Colgate-Palmolive perspective, I'm not going to be able to help them win in every single element of their strategy. But there are areas that I am going to be able to help them lead or give them a perspective that can influence other sections. And I think the more and more we play those roles, the more valuable that you show up to a retailer, the more inclined they are to partner with you.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean I feel like that's a life principle. You just did your research on the brand, the company, you looked at their investor reports, you look into the background of the people, and instantly they're like, "Oh, you kind of already know that I don't have to bring you up to here, you're already here." So, now we can get going, which is awesome.Diana:Basically all can be boiled down to the same dynamics of the dating relationship. Sometimes you go to the sporting event because your significant other likes it, and then sometimes they go to the thing that you want because you like it. And then if you have a mixture of alcohol and sports, you got me. So, there you go.Stephanie:I love that. I love that. Cool. Well, the one thing I want to kind of touch on too is around the world of marketing right now. So, I've talked with some brands that have had to kind of always work in a scrappy mindset. One of them was Anheuser-Busch where they're like, "Yeah. We can't ever have this one-to-one relationship. We always have to do other things to be able to reach our customers because we actually can't directly talk to them."Stephanie:And it makes me think brands like that might be pretty far ahead with all these changes to ads and privacy and retargeting and all that. What are you guys thinking is kind of like what are brands missing right now? What should they be doing to continue to have a close relationship with their customers and not lose out when they lose access to a big ad pull that maybe they're not going to have anymore?Diana:For me, I think it's a balance. I think you have to think about your consumer touch points across the board. Everyone's talking about the cookieless environment that's looming. We're all hoarding data. But I don't know how actionable everyone's making it. So, I think it's really around taking a step back and what's your learning agenda.Diana:You want to connect with consumers, but what's the value proposition for them? What's the benefit? And I think brands really have to think about and understand, if I'm connecting with consumers, what value am I providing them? And why should they give me their information? Why should they want to connect and engage with me? And if you haven't established that, then you haven't earned the right to have their information or their contact, because it really is all around creating a delightful experience for them.Diana:I think understanding all of the data inputs that you have and really thinking hard around, how do you leverage them to feed strategies, not with just within the silos of the space? But how do you integrate them so you're feeding your traditional media strategy with your D2 insights? You're feeding your supply chain strategy with some of the ratings and reviews that you found, even your R&D innovation.Diana:So, it's really around being mindful and thoughtful about all the touch points that you have and being able to action against them. But I think for most retailers and manufacturers, if you don't have a strategy to think about how you're going to leverage your data, and you haven't, you're going to miss the boat, because everybody's gearing up, and it's what's happening now if you want to stay ahead going forward.Mike:Yeah. And just to build on that. I think totally it depends on the consumer and what's relevant. But I mean generally, I think what I'm seeing from some brands a little bit of higher level thinking in terms of how they're engaging with consumers, even on social media. I noticed there was a time period where I would go on Instagram and I saw these ads. They're very tactical. There's just like these product ads like, "Okay, buy this widget, buy this thing."Mike:And you still see these display ads, but then I've seen a lot more ads are just more, they're helpful, their content. I'm a pet owner and I wasn't going through my feed and I saw those, it was an ad, but it was from a pet company, and it was really supposed to be like how do you, what are the attributes of a healthy pet? It was kind of an interesting, intrigued me. I have an aging pet, so I just think there's a lot more creativity, you can't… I think it's easy in e-commerce to get very operational, but you can't underestimate the power of creative and how important creative is.Mike:And I think there's a lot of brands that I've seen challenger brands that are leveraging humorous videos. They're really doing things viral on YouTube, they're building a personality around their brand. They're getting up on TikTok. They're leveraging every touch point they can at the top of the funnel to build, to be creative, to stand out. And now what that's doing for them is now they're training consumers to go to Amazon and type their branded, not type a general category keyword.Mike:So, I think what's happening is the mediums are changing, maybe it's not television maybe it's not that, but there's so many more tools for marketers and very agile to still tell stories. And so, I think storytelling is going to be, has always been important. And I think that brands that are going to invest in that and make sure that they're using all these other new platforms these video platforms are going to really be well positioned for the long term.Diana:Yeah. And I think what I heard from you too is this authenticity. And what consumers are really looking for because I feel like now especially within Instagram, people want to be sold to, to an extent, but they want to be sold to for me. I want you to understand who I am, what I want to see and deliver it to me the way that I want to." But I think people are also really looking for real content. So, a lot of the slick and shiny campaigns that work on TV, are not going to work in social. So, really understanding who your consumer is and how to speak to them in an authentic way. But also be able to convert them in three seconds or less.Diana:So, how do you make that from something content, how do you really think about making it real? Especially if you're talking to Gen Z, how do you talk to them so it feels like they're talking to their peer group in a very authentic way? Is really critical. And then, how do you make it every single touch point the opportunity for consumers to buy? Because the funnel as we know it, has really collapsed in a lot of places and consumers are coming in and out as they choose, and if you're not able to make your social shoppable. Then, you're really going to miss a lot of opportunities to drive conversion and acquire new audiences.Stephanie:Yeah. And I love the idea around storytelling. I mean that's kind of what our whole company's been built around is like this is what humans look for. And I think there's this really big opportunity in companies that have been around for a long time, like Colgate-Palmolive. I think since 1806, the story behind that maybe has not really been around of like, how was it founded?Stephanie:I mean we had on UPS the other day, and we were kind of going through the history of UPS. I'm like, "Whoa. They need to talk about this more." I mean founded by like a 19-year-old guy, and here's how like it even started with this bike delivery. They were on their bikes delivering things, and what it is today and all the pivots they've had to go through. And I think kind of getting back to those storytelling routes, especially for the more historical brands not only will kind of… I mean people want to hear those stories. I just don't think big brands tell it enough in a way that connects with people now.Mike:Colgate was the original startup.Stephanie:See?Mike:Right?Stephanie:This is what I want. This is the connection I need.Mike:1800 startup brand, right? That's a challenging brand.Diana:Well, you talk about purpose driven brands. I do think a lot of these more established CPTs don't really know how to tell that story. I think there was a time period and several years ago when like it was just something you didn't do, and if I look back on all the organizations I worked at that do a lot of good for the communities in which they serve, that wasn't the story that you told. It wasn't like the thing. But now people are expecting brands to have a purpose, and they are using their dollars to determine if that purpose is worthy or not.Diana:So, if you're not talking about it, then you're not going to get those dollars. And Gen Z is not having it at all. They expect you to stand up and not just talk the talk, they want to see you walk the walk and they also want to see what your executive leadership team looks like.Diana:And I think consumers are also expecting the role of big corporations has shifted. How are you making this world better? How are you involved in social justice? What is your role? I'm super proud of Colgate for launching a recyclable toothpaste tube that then they gave the technology to everybody in the industry, so now everyone can do it. Those are the type of we're here for the good of the planet, we're here for the good of society, and we're going to be good corporate citizens and contribute to that. That's what the consumers want, and those are the stories that larger CPGs have to start telling.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. So, when thinking about, earlier we're mentioning like you kind of have to be everywhere. And one thing that I also wanted to get into was all around agencies. We've had on amazing companies, one, was this company avocados from Mexico, and they talked about we've been like the number two or three commercial in the Super Bowl, and we have all these crazy things that we do that really drive, not only conversions, but awareness of our brand and they're selling avocados.Stephanie:They said our agencies are the ones that really, we vet them. They're amazing. They helped us get here, and I'd love to hear your take on, in a world where you have to be everywhere, how do you find agencies to work with that'll help get you there?Diana:For me, I've worked with so many great agencies along the way. And what I found is for me agencies are always an extension of my team. I'm expecting them to push us to make us better. I also really want to empower them to bring us awesome, creative, and make us feel really uncomfortable, because that's when you know you're onto something, especially when your boardroom feels really uncomfortable. That's when you know you're really onto something.Diana:But I think in this new digital commerce age, it's important to have an integrated agency model, because there are different agencies that are good and serve a purpose for different things. You do need those major creative campaigns, and yes, the Super Bowl is still important to some brands, but there's kind of the day-to-day operations, and also the ability to really think about digital commerce and the integration with shopper marketing and understanding how different retailer dynamics works, and how to leverage the data that's critical.Diana:So, agencies that not only know media, but know performance marketing but also understand retailers are really going to rise to the top right now, especially as more and more media dollars are shifting to retail media. Now those agencies that can work together, so from the big campaign to the Super Bowl ad and bring it all the way back to the Kroger, the Walmart, or the Target. Now that is just perfect.Mike:Yeah. I mean agencies from my point of view are, they are an extension and what they're often doing is they're acting on the data and insights that maybe a e-commerce team isn't equipped to act on yet. And so, I think the best agencies are the ones that make data their differentiation. So, for example, you could have a handful of agencies are all really good at spending your ad dollars. But there will be a select few agencies that know how to get that extra edge from some data, maybe it's incorporating some out of stock data or competitive search data, and you want to find those agencies are always pushing the boundary for you.Mike:They're not just managing on the basic models of ROAS, but they're actually looking at, what are these new things we could do? A test and learn, how do we advanced your ROI? Actually show that the ads are growing market share. How can they use data? And I think that's going to be a big differentiator, especially since digital shelf data, e-commerce data, it's still new for a lot. But I think you're going to see the separation where you find these agencies that are data-led, data centric, and I think there's a huge opportunity. To Diana's point, where first wave of digital agencies were very Amazon focused. There's such a huge gap in skill set right now in like the traditional shopper marketing for digital commerce that I think agency are perfect position to start becoming your extension of your Walmart, your Walmart digital operators, your Target.Mike:I think that's where you're going to see a lot of agencies flourish is where the maturity to actually pull those levers still isn't there. They can come in and be leaders. So, I look at agency on two dimensions who is really driving digital data driven decisions, who are ones that I can really scale with beyond just the Amazons but into that next tier flywheel that I want to go. Who's going to lead me there, lead my thinking, and help me be the market share leader on that next platform?Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. Are there any tests that you do when hiring agencies that you're like, "This will let me know if you're what I need, if you're well-rounded, if you can kind of plug in with other agencies and cover everything?"Mike:Well, we work with a lot of agencies. We don't hire them but we partner with them. So, one of the things that we do when we… We've tried to build an ecosystem at Profitero of like-minded agencies that are data-led. And one of the things that we're trying to do is make our data accessible to all these agencies to be able to do things. So, what I've seen is agencies that are really going to, that show the most promise is the ability to be willing to do some test and learn stuff, to pick up some data points from the digital shelf and say, "Hey, we're going to try this."Mike:We're going to say instead of just putting our ad dollars across every product spread it evenly on Amazon, we're going to actually shift and we're going to stop spending on the products that aren't converting well, and we're going to shift it to these products that are converting well. We're just going to shift it up and we're going to try to see what happens. So, for me, for my perspective the agencies that we've been vetting and really partnering with and saying that these are best of class are the ones that are showing that competency and that ability just to try some different things and experiment and find a model that they can repeat.Diana:Yeah. I would say when I think about it from a digital commerce perspective, especially from retail media. I'm really looking for an agency that not only understands media, but they also understand the impact on sales. So, if you think about Amazon and getting the flywheel going, if you're pushing ROAS, if you're pushing certain levers that impacts your profitability, it impacts a lot of your negotiation power with Amazon. So, you need to be able to keep your ROAS to where it needs to be in your other traditional media KPIs while keeping top line going, which can be expensive.Diana:So, that's very critical. So, having somebody that understands that. Also, someone that understands the nuances and the inner workings of Walmart from a media perspective but also that my sales team then needs to go to a buyer or a DMM and sell this program in, to not only get more, whether it's more displays or get them engaged and excited about it. But it's not just a pure media place. So, an agency that understands that from a digital commerce perspective is really critical.Diana:Then, when it comes to more of our traditional content and execution, I like to do what I call media to shelf. So, regardless of who the partner is and most agencies can do this. It's how you can integrate and work with other agencies. So, the idea can come from either side, either the traditional creative agency, the digital commerce agency, the shopper agency. But how do you take the lane that you play in and make the concept work across all? So, how do you take that idea and make it so much bigger? Because our funding models are not changing, our buckets are not getting any bigger. So, we have to make every dollar work harder.Diana:So, I need a traditional media plan that not only drives awareness, but also can pull through to the digital or physical shelf. And I would say a measure of good traditional agency, for me, it's make or break by the creative director. They really do enable the work to either deliver on the brief or exceed our expectations and deliver on our business objective.Stephanie:Yeah. Love that. All really good points. All right, with a couple minutes left, I want to shift over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce commerce cloud. This is where I have a question, and you have one minute or less to answer. Are you ready? And I'll just kind of go back. Both have to answer the same question, so.Diana:Oh, boy.Stephanie:All right. Diana, you first. What's one thing you don't understand today that you wish you did?Diana:I don't understand why sales and marketing are so separate. I wish I could understand why each side didn't understand the other, but hopefully one day, we will be able to create, take the healthy tension and build a stronger digital commerce organization as a result.Stephanie:I love that. You and a lot of other companies, so. All right, Mike.Mike:Bitcoin.Stephanie:All right. You haven't even looked into it yet? I feel like now's the time to get in.Mike:I've tried and I get so confused, but I just have this fear. I have this waving fear of missing out, but then I realized that people are losing a lot of money too. I just don't understand how it works.Diana:I want to do over.Stephanie:I liked yours. What? You want to do over, Diana?Diana:I want a do over. You know what I don't understand? Why can't we have side parts anymore? I don't understand that. I like the side part. It fits my face frame. Why is that not cool anymore?Stephanie:Man, I feel like we can have more. Let's just stay on this question, so many things. All right. Next one. Something wise my elders taught me. Mike, you first.Mike:Something wise my elders taught me. Man, sorry. I totally blanked on that one. So, can you ask that question again?Stephanie:Yeah. Something wise my elders taught me.Mike:Yeah. I'd say that really it was hard work. That just sounds kind of lame. But I learned pretty early that no one's going to give you anything in this world, and you have to work really hard, and my dad was one of the hardest working people I know. He was an auto body worker and put in a lot of hours and really kind of like taught me this blue collar approach that I try to bring to my work. I love working. I've always learned to work hard and I try to always ground myself in that work ethic whatever I do. So, that's something that my elders taught me.Stephanie:I love that. All right. Diana, you're up.Diana:So, for me, I'm a black woman in America and a first generation from Caribbean parents, so it's really about using my voice and my power to have the courage to make space for people who look like me or people who don't have their voices heard. So, I'm really grateful for having parents, but also ancestors that taught me and showed me how to do that. YStephanie:Yeah. I love that. All right. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be? Diana, you're up.Diana:Oh, shoes.Stephanie:A podcast on shoes?Diana:Yeah. My podcast would be on shoes and it would be Sarah Jessica Parker.Stephanie:My space right-Diana:It would really just be for me and a way to get new shoes.Stephanie:I'm so confused.Diana:Literally the whole angle of the podcast would be to get free shoes.Stephanie:Just need shoes. [crosstalk]. Okay. Who would your first guest be?Diana:Sarah Jessica Parker.Stephanie:Okay. I love it. All right. Mike, you can't top that one, but if you want to try, what would your podcast be about and who would your first guest be?Mike:Cannabis.Stephanie:Okay.Mike:And it would be probably, I don't know, Willie Nelson.Stephanie:What would you guys be talking about or would you [crosstalk]-Mike:I'm fascinated by the business of cannabis. So, it's something that I've studied for a while. I started to do a little bit of research on it back in Nielsen, and this was like way ahead. But I'm fascinated by how an industry can just go so mainstream. How can one part be so regulated, then all of a sudden go mainstream? And I'm fascinated by brand building in that space and how brands are building, and even like huge bevel companies are getting in this space now. So, we're like fascinated about the entrepreneurs in that space, the ecosystem of that space, and if I had a separate podcast that was totally unrelated to anything I did, it would be about that, because I think that's like, that and Bitcoin, those are two booming things right now.Stephanie:You could just blend them all together.Mike:Yeah. Right.Stephanie:I thought you would say you would be in it for the free weed. Yeah. Give me free weed.Mike:Samples, yeah.Stephanie:Diana's shoes.Diana:Yeah.Stephanie:Lobby sitting pretty.Mike:Right.Stephanie:So, I'll send you Bitcoin for the first time, and then you'll have to go deep into the wormhole.Mike:Yeah. I'm really opening my heart on this podcast.Stephanie:That is why you're here. That's why you're here. All right. And then, the last one. I want to know how you guys stay on top of your industry. So, maybe, Mike, you first. What are you reading? Newsletters? Is it books, podcasts? What do you do?Mike:LinkedIn. I basically follow a set of people. On LinkedIn there's a group of about 15 to 20 people that I just trust that curate. They curate on a regular basis all the breaking news that I could just go to LinkedIn and I know that at any given moment, I'm going to find something that's really interesting on a different perspective. Yeah. That's my go-to. I wake up in the morning and look at LinkedIn. And then I think about, "Okay, what could I do to add value to LinkedIn that day?"Mike:And LinkedIn has become one of these like platforms that I managed my life around. I never thought it would be like that. But it's become like a valuable news source for me.Stephanie:That's awesome. All right. Diana, how about you? How do you stay on top of everything?Diana:For me, I'm fueled by curiosity. So, similar to Mike, I'm on LinkedIn. He's in my top 20 list of people that I follow that I get content from. I listen to a ton of podcasts, this one also. I am an avid reader of papers and research. So, whether it's from Kantar, Profitero, [inaudible], Edge, you name it, you've got to stay on top of it.Diana:And then it's really about networking. So, I have this mantra like I'll say yes. So, if somebody invites me to a round table, I'm going to go. If it's a bad experience I don't go back. But like I found this small community of e-commerce and digital commerce folks that I can just call or text or get information from. And a really cool thing that a bunch of women in e-com started is basically women of e-commerce, and it's a group of 25 of us, and we connect on a regular basis. But we also bought, each brought in a mentee. So, it's just ripe for learning, and Sarah Hofstetter, the president of Profitero is one of the members as well. But it's just such a great place to feed my curiosity.Stephanie:I love that. I see only more of that happening, these micro groups popping up. I know that that was something that I started experiencing here which is like women all being part of like a group text, which I was like, "Is this going to be too much?" And now, I'm like, "This is the best text thread I've ever been in." And it probably wouldn't have happened prior to this past year or two. That's amazing.Stephanie:Well, Mike, Diana, this has been such a fun round table. We'll definitely have to have you back for round two, because I'm sure a lot will change quick in a matter of months. But where can people find out more about you? Mike, maybe let's start with you.Mike:LinkedIn.Stephanie:Of course. And then, you just go to Diana [crosstalk]Mike:Yes. If you want to find me, you want to talk to me, that's the place to go. I'll be pretty responsive.Stephanie:Yes. All right. Diana.Diana:You can find me on LinkedIn as well.Stephanie:Cool. All right. Well, thank you guys so much for joining. It's been a pleasure having you.Diana:Thank you so much for having me.Mike:Thank you.

Join us as Jessika takes us on a behind-the-scenes tour of the 1990s Ninja Turtle movies. Come for the stories about Jim Henson, stay for the ragging on Corey Feldman. We will not be discussing the Michael Bay abominations. ----more---- Episode 9 Transcription [00:00:00] Jessika: God, am I wheezy on my microphone right now? Hello. Welcome to Ten Cent Takes the podcast where we serve comics knowledge on the half shell, one issue at a time. My name is Jessika Frazier and I'm joined by my cohost, the righteous reader, Mike Thompson. Hello?  Mike: Hello. Jessika: Well, the purpose of our podcast is to study comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to look at their coolest, weirdest and silliest moments, as well as examine how they're woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. Today, we're going to be discussing movies from a genre that is very near and dear to my heart, the Teenage Mutant Ninja [00:01:00] Turtles.Now we won't be doing a deep dive into the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles franchise, but stay tuned for a future episode. We are going to be talking about the live action, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle films from the nineties, the drama leading up to the making of the films, the ingenuity, and detailed involved in the filming itself, along with the casting crew and some of their recollections and anecdotes.But before we do Mike, what is a one cool thing you've read or watched lately? Mike: well, I know what we have both been watching actually. And I feel like, uh, maybe you need to start off this  conversation.  Jessika: So, yeah, cause I, I see that you have written the same thing as I, as we do have a shared file here.  Well, I watched the first few episodes of MODOK, which just came out this year and it is witty and wonderful.  Mike: I think it came out like a week ago.  Jessika: Oh, sweet. Mike: Yeah, like it's real [00:02:00] fresh.  Jessika: Well, thank you to my friend who was like, we need to watch this because you'll really enjoy it. And in fact I did. So, and now that I have my head sort of out of turtle world, I'll be able to watch a little bit more. But for those of you who haven't seen it yet, it follows a blundering Marvel villain with a big head and a super tiny body named MODOK. He flies around on this little hover in this little hover situation. It's very funny. And it follows his evil ventures and how they bleed into his family life in the suburbs, and it is produced by a variety of people. One of whom is Seth green and the show does have a very, a robot chicken vibe to it. It's done in Claymation and can get pretty violent and graphic,  in a Claymation kind of way. But I wouldn't say it's a kid show. I also got a star-studded cast Patton Oswalt is in it. Amy Garcia, Ben Schwartz -whom I loved in Parks and Rec- John Hamm, Nathan Fillion, Whoopie shows up. There's a ton of people.I'm only four episodes in out [00:03:00] of the ten, that comprise season one, but I'm super looking forward to laughing my way through the remaining six potentially tonight. Mike: I'm not going to spoil it for you, but Alan Tudyk shows up in a role where he sounds almost exactly like Joker from Harley Quinn. It's great. Jessika: Oh, I'm so excited.  So what did you think about it? Mike: We loved it. So Sarah and I wound up bingeing it last Friday when we didn't have the kids, because we knew it was not a friendly show,  as you get the warning at the very beginning, talking about how this is a mature show and it is not, not for small children. I think we binged all of it in one night because you know, it was only 10 episodes and they're half hour.  So we didn't know  much about it. Other than I'd seen a promo image for it. I had seen a bunch of nerds getting mad about it online, but I also knew that Patton Oswalt was involved. So I was already sold because anything that man touches I will consume. We wound up just being blown out of the water. And it's so funny while also [00:04:00] being weirdly faithful to Marvel Comics lore and in a weird twist,  we wound up adopting a dog two days later. And, it was very unexpected. It was a very spur of the moment thing where we saw this dog online and then decided to apply for him. And we got him and I didn't think this was actually going to fly, but Sarah agreed to it, much to her chagrin I'm sure later on, but we named him MODOG. So MODOG stands for Miniature Organism Designed Only for Gnawing because he's a puppy and he's chewing on everything as puppies do. We call him Mo for short, there's a graphic designer at my company who immediately whipped up an image of him MODOK's doomsday chair. So it's his face, but then MODOK's body. It's great. And I've shared it everywhere. And now I have a new life goal where I want to have Patton Oswalt meet my dog and then sign a printing of that graphic.So. Patton Oswalt, future friend of the podcast, please hit us up.  Jessika: That was a really cute picture. [00:05:00] I literally LOL'd when I saw it. Mike:It was very good. It's also been turned into a Slack emoji in our work slack. And as a result, it's just getting spammed by everybody on my team.  Jessika:  Deservedly so.  Nowonto our main topic, which is the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle films. First, I want to give a shout out to the resources I used in my research of these films. IMDB.com, movie web.com. There was a whole  interview with the cast and crew of the making of the first Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle films from the Hollywood reporter.com. Turtlepediafandom.com, which is very well organized and has tons of information with resources cited and the film, The Definitive History of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which is basically the history told through compiled interviews of [00:06:00] those involved in making this amazing franchise. So these live action films, I don't know about you. I absolutely remember watching these as a kid, although I didn't realize that until I started watching them again and was immediately able to recall every scene from the first film. And we were also very much, and I've said this before on the podcast, we were very much a teenage mutant ninja turtle household.So it makes total sense that we would have watched that at some point, probably numerous times. I presume you also watched them as a kid. What was your experience with the films? Mike: I mean, I was born in the early eighties, I was very much that target demographic for the Turtles. My mom actually took me to see the first movie, I think four times.  Jessika: Oh, wow.  Mike: I think I mentioned in that Saturday Morning Cartoon episode, that the last time she just sat in the lobby and read a book Jessika: I still love that story. Mike: Yeah,  which, f you ever meet my mom, that, that checks out. She's like, meh, he'll be fine. He'll be [00:07:00] fine. What's the worst that could happen. Letting my eight-year-old go into a movie theater alone. But yeah,  I saw both sequels in the theater too. I think I saw The Secret of the Ooze twice. And then the third one was fine. I mean, we got it on video and I remember watching it a bunch of times with my siblings because they were pretty young and we would just pop it on because it was something that could entertain all of us, but it wasn't one of those things that we needed to see over and over again in the movie theater, as opposed to the other ones.I had so many of the action figures when I was a kid and I was just addicted to the cartoon for like longer than it was cool.  Jessika: Hard same. Very much so.  Mike: But I weirdly wasn't really into the comics. The Ninja Turtle comics were just never something that I was all that curious about. I was already into Marvel and DC and Image and all that stuff.  Jessika: Yeah. Very nice. I'm going to get into production, actors and success of each of the films along with some other fun facts. [00:08:00] But first, can you please give me a brief overview of the first Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle film? Mike: Sure. So Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is  the proverbial superhero origin movie. It's set in a New York that's still rocking the grit of the eighties, and it's also showing a bit more urban decay than we're used to. This New York is in the throes of a crime wave due to the Foot Clan, which has been recruiting wayward teens, and eventually training them to be ninjas of all things. I don't quite understand how you go from recruiting teens to just  commit petty burglaries and then rewarding them with a giant warehouse full of video arcade cabinets and skateboarding ramps and graffiti walls. And regular or menthol cigarettes as was demonstrated in the scene that we get to see a very young Sam Rockwell selling the Foot Clan to teenagers.The movie introduces us to the Ninja Turtles, their leaders Splinter, the vigilante Casey Jones, [00:09:00] and TV reporter April O'Neil, as they all deal with the crime wave in their own ways. But then they eventually work together to defeat Shredder and his army.  Jessika: Yeah. That totally sums it up. What did you think of the film overall on the rewatch? Mike: Honestly, I was surprised by how well it's aged. it's not like the current crop of superhero movies where those are clearly meant to be watched by adults who are fans of the franchise. And then also make it accessible to kids. This was clearly meant to be a kids movie that was tolerable for their parents who got dragged to the theater. It's a lot darker and grittier than I remembered. And a lot of those elements really went over my head as a kid. The Turtles and Splinter themselves, I also think are really impressive, which isn't surprising since the costumes and puppetry were handled by the Jim Henson company. I mean, when you hire the best you get the best. But yeah, most kids during this era had really only been exposed [00:10:00] to the cartoon. So it's a little weird at how serious they went with the overall tone and storyline. My only real complaint was how kind of janky Shredder's costume was, but he actually doesn't show up that much. It's  like he's wearing, do you remember those like weird sequined , evening dresses that were all the rage in the late eighties, early nineties? Jessika: Oh, yes. The ones with the shoulder pads? Mike: Yeah, it kind of looks like someone took the fabric from that and then attached Shredder's blades and shoulder pads. And it's also the wrong color. It's red. They really needed to give him a cape and a belt and I would have been way more okay with that. But it's fine.  Jessika: Yeah.  Mike: What about you? How do you feel about it?  Jessika: I think it held up pretty well on the rewatch. Like you said, it was super fun. As fun as I remember it. And I really liked April's role in the film, which was kind of, I would say edgy for like the nineties. She's independent. She lives alone, although her boss has absolutely [00:11:00] no boundaries. He just fucking shows up there with his kid and the kid's fucking stealing things from her. Like screw that, don't bring your kid here. Mike: She lives in this weird shithole of an apartment, too. Which doesn't make sense to me because she's apparently  a really well-respected and popular TV journalist.  Jessika: Mike we're women. We can't both have success and nice things  Mike: I'm sorry.  Jessika: That would be really threatening to the patriarchy. I really dig that she follows stories regardless of what others may advise her she should do. Like, she's not about doing fluff pieces. She's just like, no, let's do this thing. And at, one point she's almost mugged and she doesn't tell her boss because why, why, why, why should she, like, nothing happened really? And when he asks her about it, she has this like “for what” attitude, which I'm like, yeah, exactly. For what? Like, why should I, I'm not going to call my boss and be like, “I tripped on the [00:12:00] sidewalk and sprained my ankle.” I don't know. It didn't make any sense. So Mike: That producer really was, he was really there as an excuse to introduce the character of his son. That was really the only purpose that he was there for.  Jessika: Yeah, he popped in and out. He wasn't doing much with that. Yeah. Also the animatronics were surprisingly great. I know it's Jim Henson, but like  the nineties were a really good decade for, good animatronics between like that and Jurassic Park.You know, very, very good. So their movements were just really convincing. And we'll get into, part of why that is, in just a couple of minutes when I talk about the animatronics and the costumes. Mike: Yeah. I'm really excited to talk about that actually.  Jessika: So picture this: It's 1989 and comic book movies were not wildly popular after a couple of recent superhero flops. Their turtles were initially [00:13:00] discovered by Gary Proper, who was a road manager for the comic Gallagher. He had previously worked with Kim Dawson and got her on board as producer. And they signed on Bobby Herbeck as the writer. This was kind of cool because during the writing process, there was a lot of back and forth between Herbeck and the original writers, Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird to ensure that the movie was staying true to the comic and, per an interview I read, it was definitely a longer process than Herbeck  had initially thought it would be. Mike:  That makes sense because to be completely honest, the movie feels like a pretty faithful adaptation of the tone of the original comic, which was very over the top and gritty and violent.  Jessika: Yeah, absolutely. And I, I do like that. They went back and checked instead of just said, okay, well we have the rights and we're going to run and do what we want to do with this.  So now that they had a script, they had to find funding and a studio and a way to make the Turtles come to [00:14:00] life. So they pitched the idea all around Hollywood. All three of them were incredibly enthusiastic, but the studios were super wary after the recent comic book related box office failures. Mike: So out of curiosity, which movies were those that failed?  Jessika: Howard the Duck? Mike: Oh yeah. Jessika: Yeah. And so it didn't do well. And there was another one before that, too, although it doesn't say on here, but Howard the Duck was the big one that people were like, yikes, we're going to go ahead and back off. Mike: That was George Lucas and Steven Spielberg. And they thought they had like the next star wars and ET their hands. Jessika: I've never even heard of it. Mike: Oh, oh, we should totally do a retrospective on it at some point.  It's based on a Marvel comics character who is a anthropomorphic duck.  They  had a full animatronic suit.  It's like, you know, Ninja Turtle-quality animatronics, and puppetry. It had all sorts of talent involved with it. And it was one of the biggest box office bombs. So that makes a lot of sense actually, because that'd be the closest [00:15:00] thing where you're talking about anthropomorphic comic characters. Jessika: I'm getting flashes of like a big duck costume. So I may have even seen flashes of it in my life,  Mike: It's a weird movie. It's real weird.  Leah Thompson, you know, the mom from Back to the Future is in it and this was like at the height of her popularity too.  Jessika: Oh no poor Leah.  Mike: It's real uncomfortable. There's a whole scene where she's in bed with Howard in lingerie.  Jessika: Ew, with the duck?.  Mike: It's, very weird  Jessika: I don't like it.  Mike: And very uncomfortable. Jessika: It's weird enough having these teenage, like teenage, they are supposed to be fun. Fact, they're supposed to be 15 during this, that they're all like  over April. It's like, Ooh. Like she is definitely a full adult, a full adult, like you are 15 years old and you're, a turtle! Like…  Mike: And that's unfortunately, [00:16:00] something that's carried on. I feel like the one thing that they don't actually ever do a very good job of adapting is the teenage aspect.  I have hope for what we have coming in the future. We'll talk about that later.  Jessika: Yeah, yeah.  Mike: But yeah.  Jessika: Ugh. So they pitched the idea all around Hollywood.  After those comic book related box office failures, after months of persistent nudging, they finally wore down Tom Gray, who was the head of production for Golden Harvest and got approval to light the project with a $3 million budget. And apparently they already had another couple of million  already floating around, like, yeah, no problem. Just, but we need more. Mike: They were already huge, and the funny thing is this is very much like how they actually got their first pitch for getting the action figures made where their agent was driving around with this giant turtle.  I think Playmates was the last toy manufacturer that was actually willing to talk to them and they agreed to it, but they had been making pitches right and left [00:17:00] and no one had picked them up.  Jessika: it was just, it sounded like such a whole thing that they were just like, Fox! How about you? How about blah, blah, blah. And everybody was like, whoa, whoa, you need to leave like exit through where you came from, because we don't want anything you have to tell us.  Mike: Don't even take the main exit, go out the servant's exit. Jessika: Yeah, we don't want to see you leave. Just do it. can teleport. That'd be great.  Mike: We don't want any association with you or your trash. Get out .  Jessika: Oh no. So they hired Steve Barron as director.  Mike: Right. Jessika: Barron  wanted to make sure that the teenage mutant ninja turtles were a hybrid of the lighter animated series, along with the darker vibe of the comics, which is why there is that kind of middle point. It is a little darker, but it's maybe not as dark as the comics and that's intentional. They did want to make it family friendly because the comics really aren't, they're very violent. They're very graphic. You can put a dark spin on things and still make it [00:18:00] family friendly. Barron had also worked with Jim Henson on a previous project and knew Henson's  Creature Shop would make the Turtles more fully believable on screen. Now, the issue was that this was 1990. Jim Henson was arguably the biggest name in the animatronics game, which of course meant his services were not going to be cheap. This edition would be $6 million, which of course was far over their budget. They also had to convince Henson to actually take part in the film because he was concerned that it was too violent for what his puppets should portray and might be a risky move due to his younger fanbase. Took some sweet talking from Barron -which seems to be kind of the name of the game for the Turtles- but Henson finally agreed to assist. And this was the first and what is thought to be the last time that Henson lent out the name to use in this way?  Yeah.  They [00:19:00] had to get another studio involved because they just simply did not have enough money.  Mike: Right.  Jessika: And finally signed on with Fox for a larger budget. Which also fell through. I read an interview that said within 10 days of when they were supposed to start filming, they still didn't have the funding.  Mike: Wow.  Jessika: So they were cutting it incredibly close. I mean, it had literally everything else.  Mike: Come to think of it. I mean, yeah, that's wild. And then also - given the time that this came out- this has gotta be one of the last films that Jim Henson was personally involved with  before he died.  Jessika: Yeah. Actually we'll get into that. We will. Yeah. And not even on this, this part of it, but we'll we'll we'll we'll get there. We'll get there. Yeah. New Line Cinema eventually came through and signed on to produce. But offered significantly less money than the 6 million that had been proposed. Golden Harvest owner, Raymond Chow, agreed to fund the remainder of the expenses, whatever those were. Mike: Okay. I mean, that was a great bet for him. [00:20:00] Jessika: Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Shoot. So this is wild. We were talking about Jim Henson. Let's talk about the costumes because those things were awesome. There were actually two sets of costumes for each turtle, one for the animatronics, s

What do Archie, Biblical Apocalypse fiction, and Erik Estrada all have in common? It turns out each of these appeared in stories published by Spire Christian Comics.  Join us as we journey through history to learn about and cringe at one of the craziest publishers to come out of the 1970s. ----more---- Episode 6 Transcription [00:00:00] Jessika: Yeah. How are you going to display your deceased cult leader's body if you don't have a Tik Tok? Welcome to Ten Cent Takes, the podcast where we predict the coming of the end of days. One issue at a time. My name is Jessika Frazer and I am joined by my cohost, the savior of sweets, Mike Thompson. Mike: Eeeeeey. Jessika: The purpose of our podcast is to study comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to look at their coolest, weirdest and silliest moments, as well as examine how they're woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. Today, we're taking a turn for the religious as we look at  Spire Christian Comics. We'll look at the [00:01:00] history behind the publication, the comics and the books they were based upon and discuss how Archie played a role in trying to educate the youths about Jesus. Mike: What. Jessika: Yeah, that's happening. Okay. I know we say this every week, but this was once again a rabbit hole filled episode. So buckle up, friends. Mike: It's almost like we're developing a theme. Jessika: Oh no. Yes. I like it though. Mike: They're worse themes to have. Jessika: There are. There are. Before we get to our main topic and the one cool thing we've read and talked about lately, let's call upon the fact that it is May 4th and May the Fourth be with you, Mike. Mike: And May the Fourth be with you. Jessika: Well, I thank you. For the record: Let it be known that I am wearing an R2D2 printed dress and I have Leia buns. So I am dressed appropriately and I saw that your household was also celebrating. [00:02:00] Mike: Yeah. We festooned everything, but we didn't have any Star Wars outfits to wear, unfortunately. So we just threw up  Star Wars comics around the household in front of our Vader poster and other things that we have. But I have a couple of the really old Dark Horse comics that I absolutely love and adore. Jessika: That's so fun. I love it. Well, we like to do something each week called One Cool Thing You've Read or Watched Lately. Mike, why don't you start us off? Mike:  Sure. So this weekend I wound up reading through DC’s Doomsday Clock collection on Hoopla.  It's basically the official comic book sequel to Watchmen.  It finally delivers the payoff that DC set up back in 2017 when they revealed Dr. Manhattan was involved in the creation of both the New 52 and Rebirth universes. Have you read Watchman?  Jessika: I haven’t read it, no. Mike: Okay.  It's one of those iconic series that everybody loves to talk about. [00:03:00] And to be honest, it's one that I never really enjoyed because I felt that I had a pretty nihilistic tone. But I've read it. I appreciate what it did for comics in the era. It was interesting. I read this and I actually was pretty sour at the start, mainly because I wasn't sure that I liked the story because again, it felt pretty nihilistic and ugly. That said, I actually really enjoyed the way that everything paid off at the end. Primarily the idea that there's now a quote unquote metaverse in the DC continuity, which feels like honestly the best response to all the different universe resets that they've been doing since the 80s   it wound up being  hopeful with a surprisingly sweet ending. I mean, it's not as good as the HBO series that came out around the same time, but it's pretty damn good. How about you?  Jessika:  I recently purchased the comic book Fangs by Sarah Anderson.  Mike: I haven’t heard of this. Jessika:  [00:04:00] it's super adorable. It's about the unfolding relationship of a vampire and a werewolf and how they relate. And co-exist in random life situations. Yeah. Like the werewolf eating garlic and going to kiss the vampire. And she has a reaction to it.  Mike: That’s really cute, actually. Jessika:  Yeah. Or their inability to take a selfie together because she doesn't show up on camera. So all of his friends are asking , we haven't ever seen your girlfriend before. Like, why can't you just post a picture? Mike: Oh, that's great. Jessika: So I highly recommend this. If you're looking for a lighthearted fun and wholesome comic, it's just been super nice and mellow, and it's been a good ease to my busy brain. Mike: Nice. Yeah, I'll have to check that out. Jessika: Onto our main topic,  Spire Christian Comics. So I mentioned on a prior episode that I ran across some use comics, at an estate sale for a dollar each. [00:05:00] So how could I not buy all of them? I legit didn't even look at them until after I'd left the sale. But when I did all, I was in for a real treat. The Archie one that was in the stack really didn't catch me off guard. That one seemed pretty basic Archie from the looks of the cover, but the other one was amazing.  Do you remember, I messaged you a picture of the covers and you were the one who discovered  the Spire Christian Comics brand for us. Mike: Yes I do. Jessika:  Yeah, that was fun. I just could not believe I found these. And when I sat down to do my research, I wasn't sure how much information there really was surrounding these. But like I said earlier, buckle up friends. This was a rabbit hole journey that I will gladly take you on. One that includes Jesus,  Archie, Erik Estrada, and more. [00:06:00]  Mike: Wait, the guy from CHIPS? Jessika: Yes, the very same. Mike: Is this more or less embarrassing than that weird  land sale thing that he was doing about 10 or 15 years ago? Jessika: I'll let you decide we will talk about it. Mike: I'm strapping in, my body is ready. Jessika: Well, before we dig too deep, and since we'll be talking about religion a lot, this episode, Mike, what is your religious background and where do you currently stand?  Mike: Um, so I like to joke that my family views me as the failed experiment because I didn't really turn out like they were hoping. And a large part of that is basically because I swiped left on organized religion as soon as I got a choice. Patton Oswalt talks about the concept of "it's all chaos be kind" in his special Annihilation, and that's kind of where I stand these [00:07:00] days. But I grew up surrounded by a religion. I was raised Episcopalian. We went to church almost every Sunday. And a large portion of my bedtime stories were from the Bible story book. My mom is from Texas also. So I've got several Baptist ministers on that side of the family, including a televangelist. Yeah. And to his credit, he has never been implicated in a scandal.  There's never really been anything bad about him. I don't want to name him because, you know, I don't want to make things awkward, but  and his family have always been very kind to my family. I know they helped my mom out a lot when she was in college. And I see him on TV or I used to, when I had TV,  I would see him appear every now and then on the early morning, sermon services every now and then. And I certainly didn't agree with everything he said, but it was just  always weird and surreal to turn on the TV, at say 6:00 AM, while I was getting ready for work or whatever and there he was. [00:08:00] I mean, growing up me and my siblings would actually go to Texas for  portions of our summers. And we would go to church with our extended family. So it was really different than what we were used to. I actually, I wasn't allowed to get my driver's license until I met certain criteria for my parents. One of those things was that I had to get confirmed and I never really had much of a personal connection with religion. And my parents made the mistake of telling me that I didn't have to go to church anymore after I got confirmed. So I wound up taking them up on that, and that was kinda much to their chagrin. And then additionally, my first degree was in history and my oral exit exam was a presentation talking about the Catholic church and how it would cement its power around the world by breaking up old nations and then forming new ones that were beholden to it. So I'd like to think I'm relatively well-informed about the various aspects and sects of Christianity, but I don't really have any spiritual [00:09:00] beliefs of my own. I just, I try to be a good person for the sake of being a good person. Not because I want to be rewarded in a theoretical afterlife. Jessika: Yeah, I agree with that. It makes me nervous when people tell me  or make it appear that religions the thing holding them back from making bad decisions. I'm like, that's really creepy. So I guess religion is for you, like. But I was raised for the first part of my life as a Lutheran, and that included  going to church. We did preschool at the Lutheran church, but we didn't continue going to church after middle school-ish. There was just some congregation changes, I think with the pastor that my parents are just like, "Oh, we don't really like this new guy." I'm sure life just got busy. Cause you know, I was however, from 11 until I was probably about 20 actually, was involved in a Masonic girls organization, which had backgrounds in religion. But that felt very secular. We definitely had some [00:10:00] girls who were Jewish. We had girls of all different religions, girls were Catholic and we actually made it a point of the person who was the Honored Queen or the kind of president they were voted in. Mike: Was that the actual term, was it honored queen? Jessika: It was honored queen, by the way, past Honored Queen, here we are. It's a whole thing. You have to memorize so much stuff. Mike: So can I just next time I see you in person, just be like, Hey Queen.  Jessika: Oh yeah. I'm actually a queen. So it's fine. And that term doesn't leave me cause I may past Honored Queen, so still a queen. Yeah. But as honored queen, they made it a point for, in at least in our Bethel. I don't know if everybody did this but in our particular chapter we would go with the honored queen to her church. I didn't have a church at the time, so I don't think I even did that. But we went to a Catholic church. We went to some Episcopalian. I mean, we, we did a lot of different [00:11:00] church visiting and so I did get a lot of hear a lot of different aspects and like ways manners that this information or information in general was being portrayed. And at this point in my life, I consider myself agnostic because the, "are we alone out there?”question seems a little above my pay grade to answer, in my opinion.  I'm not willing to commit that there's  nothing happening, but I'm also  not willing to commit to, yes, this is happening. So I'll leave it to other people to figure that whole thing out for me. Mike: That seems like a pretty fair stance to take. Jessika: Yeah. Just stay out of it. Someone wants to bring me along. They can, I guess.  So I want to list the resources that I use whole researching this topic and want to make sure I give these websites  the proper credit. So Baker [00:12:00] publishing group.com. You don't read comics dot com, Christian comics, international.org, comics alliance.com, biblio.com, wikipedia for one article, and Hal Lindsey's there's a new world coming through archive.org, which has a wonderful text to speech accessibility feature, which saved me a great deal of time. Mike: I didn't know that they did text to speech. That's rad. Jessika: It was amazing. Yeah. And I figured that out and you can speed it up. So I listened to it at two times the speed.  Mike: Nice. That’s really cool. Jessika: So yeah, that being said it did mean that I was listening to Hal Lindsey, uh, his book in robot speech. Cause it wasn't like a normal voice. It was text to speech like robot, lady speaking. So that was a trip to hear about the rapture through that. Mike: I mean, if you're going to listen to narration about the Rapture, I guess a robot on meth does seem like the best way to do it. Jessika: Oh, I would say so. [00:13:00] I wouldn't have it any other way. So Spire Christian comics were published through what is now the Baker publishing group, but was originally founded in 1870 as the Fleming H Revell company by a man by the same name, along with his brother-in-law, American evangelist Dwight L Moody. Their ultimate goal was to make Christian literature both more plentiful and more widely available, but they didn't start with comics and the company didn't entertain that idea until many years and many significant organizational changes had gone by, there seemed to be so much drama surrounding the ownership and running of this company, which I'm not going to get into here, that there was no mention in their company's history that these comics were even ever published.  Mike: Really? Jessika: Yeah.  Mike: That’s wild. Jessika: Yeah. Kind of funny, huh? Mike: Yeah, that's crazy. Jessika: In 1972. Al Hartley, freelance illustrator for comics like Archie and [00:14:00] Marvel was hired to make adaptations of some of the popular Christian novels that had been published by the Fleming H Revell company. This felt like a very appropriate and timely move for Hartley who had recently become a Born-Again Christian in 1967 and had chosen to quit working with Marvel because the owner at the time, Martin Goodman, asked Hartley to illustrate some risque scenes for some of his men's magazines, Hartley preferred quitting, rather than sacrificing his moral values in his art.   Mike: Was Hartley the artist who actually illustrated the books we read for today? Jessika: Yes, He was. Hartley was the one who illustrated the ones that we read for this episode. Although I'll talk about a little bit later, there is a little bit of mystery surrounding the artistry with There's A New World Coming, even though his name is on the cover.  I want to give you an example of one of the [00:15:00] adaptations that Hartley penned, other than the one you and I read. And we'll talk about that one in a little bit,  I'm gonna send you the, a couple of things to look at.  And the first one is the cover of the novel, the Cross and the Switchblade. Can you please describe this for me? Mike: This really looks like  a low budget thriller from the 19... probably the 1960s is what I  associate this with. There's three colors. Well, four. There's four colors. There's yellow, green, black, and white. So. The background is entirely green. There is a really, it's like a really rough illustration style of a very stylized dude running with a knife. And the knife stands out because this dude is entirely done in scratchy, all black kind of almost pencil. And then the knife is the one piece of white. He is running from another shadowy figure. There is, it looks like a ruined city in the [00:16:00] background then much more clearly illustrated drawn in white is a church, cause you can see the steeple with,  the large cross and it says the Cross And The Switchblade. "The thrilling, true story of a country preacher's fight against teenage crime and big city slums!" Which, OK. Written by the Reverend David Wilkerson with John and Elizabeth Sherrell and John and Elizabeth Sherrell's billing on this title is a little bit smaller than the Reverend David and, it's $1.95 from Spire Books. Jessika: Oh yeah. Spoiler alert It is self starring. Yeah that is why his name is so large. His name is all up in that thing. He didn't even change it It's just in there.   The next is the cover of the movie adaptation.  Can you please describe the cover and read the first couple actors names at the bottom there for me.  Mike: Jesus Christ. Okay. So the title the [00:17:00] cross and the switchblade  is spray painted across some decaying brick. It's standing out from all the other graffiti that's on there and it says “now an explosive motion picture.” It's got what I'm assuming is the reverend, kind of like a  glamour shot. And then he's surrounded by smaller  shots of all the different people who are going to be taking an active role in this story. On the other side of his head it looks like he's being menaced by a "street tough," I don't quite know how to describe the kid other than that. He looks like a character from the Outsiders. That's just immediately where I'm going  cause he's got a leather jacket and it looks like M and M written on the back of his jacket I'm not entirely sure. Cause it's sort of cut off and then underneath them there's a bunch of young men of various ethnicities running and they're all holding  bats, I guess.  I'm not seeing any switchblades other than the one  that's being held by the tough who's menacing the priest. And then there is - Oh my God- so  there is the original book cover that I just [00:18:00] described  in the lower corner and it says next to it  "bares the raw needs at the core of drug addiction, racial hatred, and violence. NEVER -in all caps- has a film been more timely." Um starring Pat Boone as David Wilkerson with Eric Estrada. Oh, there he is. I'm not recognizing any of the other names. Jessika: No. Those were the only ones I needed. He's the street tough  Mike: I was going say  now that I realize that Erik Estrada is in this that is a very young Erik Estrada who is clearly in the salad days of his career. God. Jessika: Lastly  can you please describe the cover of the comic adaptation for me? Mike: I don't know if I want to. Wow. Okay This is way different! So it's again David Wilkerson's the cross and the switchblade is that the same style? [00:19:00]  It's meant to look like it's graffitied on and that there's the dripping graffiti. There's no delicate way to say what it actually looks like. It looks like jizz.. Jessika: It does. It's bad Mike: It’s really unfortunate. Like I don't know how else to describe it.  And then you have a well-dressed for the seventies dude  being menaced by again Erik Estrada his character  and he's surrounded by a bunch of   people of color who are all staring on and not really concerned  with the impending violence that's about to happen, except for one white girl who looks terrified. And then Erik Estrada character’s going "I could kill you, preach." And then the preacher is going, "yes you could Nicky. You could cut me up in a thousand pieces,  and every piece will say I love you." Jessika: Ugh, vomit. Mike: Oh God everything about this is just it is extra. Jessika:  It's a whole thing. [00:20:00] Mike:  Every variation that we've seen has started off at 11 and then it's just kept on turning it up from there. Jessika: Yeah and spoiler: Thematically, the racism is there for just…  Mike: You don’t say. Jessika: Yeah. Oh yeah It's just  rampant. Mike: Based on just what little I'm seeing here it looks like a literal white savior Jessika: Oh that's a hundred percent what it is. So really the comic was an adaptation of a movie that was an adaptation of a book. So the TLDR is that Nicky, played by Erik Estrada as we saw, is a troubled gang leader in New York city finds Jesus. Mike: I gotta say that does not look like New York on the comic cover. Jessika: No it doesn’t. They didn't do a great job with that. I don't know why, it's not hard to make a city look like New York. You can pretty much pen [00:21:00] any random looking city. And it probably is going to look like part of New York. But good job guys. Mike: Well especially because  you said that Al Hartley was a Marvel artist. Like all of the Marvel stories back then were taking place in New York. It’s not like he didn’t know what it looked like. Jessika: Maybe he forgot this time. Mike: Alright, whatever. Jessika: So Erik Estrada finds Jesus through the help of a persistent small town priest who comes to the big city to make a big difference in the lives of the troubled youth, who in his estimation just need to find Jesus's love. And that's how Erik Estrada became a comic book character, because the comic is based on him. That is based on his actual person I'm sure you've noticed. Mike: I wouldn't want to admit that that comic character was based on me but all right. Jessika: I mean there's probably a reason you haven't heard about it.   Mike: How successful was this movie? I've never heard of this before.  Jessika: I haven't heard of it either [00:22:00] And you know I didn't look that up unfortunately. Yeah. So it's a mystery. Maybe I'll update us later. Maybe I'll do more research about the Cross and the Switchblade. Along with book adaptations, the comics were also centered around the comic series that Hartley is  arguably best to known for: Archie. Hartley reached out to John Goldwater, who was the president of Archie at the time, who agreed for Archie to be included in the Spire Christian Comics publications. The comics themselves were meant as an introduction to non-believers to bridge the religious gap in a manner that was friendly to all ages. In total there were 57 comic titles published under Spire Christian comics, 19 of them were Archie.   Mike: Wow.  Jessika: Yeah I know, right? 12 were biographical and they did actually pull, I was reading on another article,  they did pull some of the themes from the Spire [00:23:00] comics and put them into regular Archie but just de-Jesused them. So if you read one you might say this sounds really familiar. Well it's probably because you've read  what actually was an adaptation version which was now regular what we would consider.  There were 12 biographical or autobiographical comics including the likes of Johnny Cash and a handful of stories pulled directly from the Bible along with other miscellaneous adaptations and some Christian comics aimed at younger children. Hartley wrote and drew most of the comics himself but other notable figures involved Dick Ayers and Dan DeCarlo. The comics weren't all wholesome and morality-filled, however, and we talked about that a little bit earlier. There were some really problematic aspects of some of these Spire comics including that rampant racism I talked about. Even in the Archie comic that you and I read there are racist generalizations about Native Americans and their [00:24:00] clothing, speech patterns, and general attitudes and demeanors which I did not love. Opposite, in fact. There's also a comic, one of the ones considered a biography, was titled wait for it "Hansi: The Girl Who Loved the Swastika." Mike could you please describe this cover for us. Give us a treat, please. Mike: This is one of those comics also that is truly infamous, especially in the age of the internet. It's one of those things that I've at least been aware of for a few years And every time you see, it it just throws you a loop. So basically it says and  in big bold letters “Hansi” and then in smaller red lettering “the girl who loved the swastika.” And it's this very Aryan looking [00:25:00] German girl in  1930s peasantware and she is standing in front of a motorcade. There's Hitler and some concerned looking you know Nazis and then the crowd around this motorcade is throwing up the right hands and there's swastikas everywhere. Like, everywhere. It's let's see one, two, three, four, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. There are 11 swastikas on this cover and she just she looks so happy and carefree. It's wild. It's one of those things where every time you see it, the shock never goes away. Jessika: Yeah it's that's a whole vibe, not going to lie. It was based on a book titled I Changed The Gods in 1968 which, interesting title, cuz what did she really do? And it follows the life story of a German born evangelist Maria Anne Hirschman as she is indoctrinated into the [00:26:00] Hitler Youth but was later rescued by American troops.  She immigrates to the U S later in life and realizes how she had in her words been brainwashed. The comic is not subtle. Obviously. You talked about the cover just now. It's not subtle at all.  Mike: No, not even a little. Jessika: No no.  It also has a lot of really raw and adult themes like rape and violence and is incredibly overt with its Cold War propaganda at the end of the comic it was really something.    Mike: That makes sense that they would go into themes like that because it's not approved by the Comics Code so they could just throw whatever they wanted in it. Jessika: Precisely. Well Spire Christian comics were published until 1988 and were later reprinted as New Barber Christian Comics as that was one of the ever-changing names of that publishing company. Mike: Hm. That's actually longer than I would have expected for that first run. Jessika: Yeah. I thought [00:27:00] so, too. So good on them I mean that was a lot, it was a lot of publications that they did. I was surprised at how many. Mike:  Do you know if they were being sold on newsstands or were they just exclusively in  Christian bookstores. Jessika:  That's a really good question I'm not a hundred percent on that  Mike: It could’ve been both.  Jessika:  It could’ve been both, absolutely. Mike: I know that those were really those were pretty big up until the nineties. I remember couple of the local malls had Christian bookstores. Jessika: Oh absolutely. We have some still in town.  Mike: Oh, really? In Petaluma? Jessika: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I pass by a Christian science reading room on my walks with my dog. So they're around.  Mike: Hmm  Jessika: You and I read through one of those Archie's.  Mike: Sure this was effectively an anthology of Archie shorts that take place in different times and places [00:28:00] Each of the stories stars Archie and it has him facing challenges and eventually overcoming them with pretty vague help from God. Examples include him being a medieval blacksmith, he tries to slay a dragon so he can win the hand of princess Veronica. He and Jughead are space explorers visiting quote unquote twin planets with very different morality systems. There's a story about him being a World War One fighter pilot who… I'm not entirely certain what they were fighting against. Was it anti-Christian propaganda?  Was that the true enemy? Jessika: I think so, it really wasn't made abundantly clear. Mike: Yeah and then there's also this there's a really weird one which involves him randomly walking into a spooky mansion that's owned by Beelzebub, who basically traps wayward teens by getting them to sell their souls in exchange for their heart's desire. Jessika: Yeah. He was just a creepy old dude. He wouldn't let teenagers leave.  That was really what it was. Mike: I didn't understand the payoff of that, but [00:29:00] okay. Jessika: So  tell us a little bit about your thoughts on the comic as a whole. Mike: Yeah. I've got a soft spot for Archie  I fucking loved Mark Waid's run a couple of years ago. It's honestly one of the best comics out there.  Riverdale is one of my favorite horny guilty pleasures.  And the Chilling Adventures of Sabrina is also a blast. Side note: the Josie and the Pussycats movie one of my favorite soundtracks. Like, that soundtrack legit slaps. We should watch it together. We should do a viewing party sometime. Jessika: Let's I'm a hundred percent into that. Yes. Mike:  Yeah. So going back to this comic, the stories didn't really work for me?  Archie books are already incredibly family-friendly and the forced morality of evangelical Christianity just felt really… I don't know. It just it fucking rubbed me the wrong way. And on top of that the godly [00:30:00] decisions  involved prayer and strict adherence to religious tenants which I don't remember seeing anything about queer people in that Archie comic.   That kind of makes sense because Kevin Keller didn't appear until  2010. But I remember Beelzebub trying to tempt Archie with women of loose morals. And it's really bizarre to see that kind of hand ringing,  especially now,  about teenagers possibly having premarital sex because we're almost 50 years in the future from this and that is very much an accepted reality at this point. These days, at least in our household, it's like just make sure that everyone is consenting to what's going on and use protection. Jessika: Exactly. Mike: I’m assuming you and I are on similar wavelengths about this but I’m curious to hear what you thought. Jessika: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought the religious theme was just so incredibly heavy handed. It was forced together with the Archie narrative and Archie, like you said, [00:31:00] he's an overall wholesome dude in general in my opinion. But the morality lessons were really in your face. Like there's the one where he's in a saloon and he orders a milkshake. And this guy is  trying to force him to drink alcohol, and he's like "I don't want to drink alcohol." And it's like okay guy this is just so like nobody's actually going to go into the world and try to force you to drink alcohol unless you join a frat. Please don't do that though.  Mike: That would’ve been way better have Archie go join a frat. That would’ve been way better. Jessika: It would’ve have made more sense. Look at I'm already making more sense for Archie. Call me, Archie. Mike: Also it actually makes a lot of sense for Archie to go into a saloon and order a milkshake.  I kind of love that but then the follow up of “no, you need to order alcohol?” That’s dumb.  Jessika: It didn't make any sense. Overall I thought the comic was cute, had some messages, whatever. There was one section that really bugged me, though. And it was the twin planets where the two planets were exactly the [00:32:00] same except one was making good choices, the other one was making bad choices and the bad choices it was like not cleaning up after yourself. And I get there's a point some of bad choices. What was another one? Mike: Everyone steals from everyone else?  Jessika:  Yeah. Exactly exactly it's just so funny. And I get there's a point but some of the bad choices are listed as complete freedom and equality.  Mike: Yeah, that stood out to me, too. Jessika: That was bad. That was listed as bad. And I was like pump the brakes. Like, we live in a society. Come on.  Mike: This was in an era where the civil rights wasn't even really history. The Civil Rights movement was still going on. I could definitely see that as being a not terribly subtle dig at equality for minorities. Jessika: Yeah, yeah. I can agree [00:33:00] with that. That's how I took it as well. And, okay, did they do that entire Pelican sequence just so they could make that stupid bird joke at the end? Because that's how it felt I didn't like it. It was stupid.  Mike: I re-read that fucking thing three times And I was like… Jessika: They literally did it just so that they could make a stupid bird joke. Oh Christianity isn't for the birds. You literally just had a whole lesson about how there was a bird teaching another bird Christianity and then you  negated it by saying Christianity isn't for the birds. And I don't know what you want out of this Mike:  That felt like  a lot of those stories was these stupid kind of punny slogans at the end of  every one of these short stories. I really found myself getting grumpy as I continued to read them because I was just sitting there and going these are dumb. And no kid is going to think Christianity is cool because… Jessika: No.  Mike: Anyway, moving right along.  Jessika: Let's move on to [00:34:00] the absolute jewel of my retro collection these days, which is Hal Lindsey's There's A New World Coming.  Before I get too far into this comic or the book it's based on I felt like you all needed a little bit of background on Hal Lindsey to really understand what we're up against here.  Mike: I’m so excited because I want to know who the fuck this guy was.  Jessika: This is very broad strokes cause I didn't want to be here all night and I'm sure you  didn't either but very interesting go check it out. So he was born Harold Lee "Hal" Lindsey in Dallas Texas in 1929. He dropped out of university to be in the Korean War, was briefly a tugboat captain -because why not- and after a failed marriage and contemplating suicide he found Gideon's Bible and became born again Christian. He entered Dallas Theological Seminary in 1958 and had his first book published in 1970. Since then, he's [00:35:00] written more books of which he sold millions of copies and has moved on with the times to include broadcasting his messages via radio and television. Messages that range from prophetic to conspiratorial. And I want to add this blip from biblio.com. Mike, do you mind reading this for me. Mike: ”Virtually none of Lindsey's verifiable predictions have been confirmed by history.” Jessika: Great. Thank you. Mike: Is this guy still doing his thing? Is he still spreading the good word? Jessika: He's 91. He's 91. He's fucking kicking  I think  he from what it sounds like he retired quote unquote whatever that means. I think he's still shouting into the ether. Yeah he's around. So speaking of predictions let's talk about those predictions of Hal Lindsey's. So there's A New World Coming. [00:36:00] First of all can you do us a solid and describe the cover of this thing, which is a journey all in itself.  Mike: It is  this is actually I would say the most subtle of the comic covers we looked at tonight. The top half is bold yellow and it says Hal Lindsey There's A New World Coming. And there are three kids getting flown through space on this very weird kind of color spiral. And in the background you can see the spiral is emanating from earth. It's actually really cool looking.  It looks like it's some sort of weird  cosmic sci-fi space opera way I can describe it.  Jessika: Yeah. Very 70s.  Mike: It's very seventies especially the fashion for the older of the kids because  they've got the bell-bottoms they've got the seventies collar and  the big heels on the guy  and also plaid pants.  The [00:37:00] two older characters are holding hands, kind of? I don't know, it looks almost like the dude is grabbing the woman by the wrist and dragging her along. Jessika: Yeah. He really took her on a journey, apparently. Mike: Yeah and then the third kid who was also a narrator.  By the way, we never fucking learned these kids' name, do we? Jessika: We don’t learn anything about them.  Mike: I don’t think we ever get an official introduction to them, either. Jessika: No it's just assumed that this woman is stupid  and sinful and needs to be taught better. That’s kind of what is presumed.  Mike: But honestly this is kind of  the first panel of the comic book because when you open the comic it actually it starts with them on this weird cosmic voyage. Jessika: Yeah. Now the cover is just the start of this banana grams comic and even nuttier book which, by the way I also listened to in it's 308 page entirety. Mike: Okay I didn't realize that this was actually a comic adaptation of a much larger source text. Jessika: Yeah. Oh [00:38:00] let's just say there's a reason this book was able to be condensed into a 32 page comic. The whole premise of both publications is dun dun duh The Rapture. Or as I much prefer to call it "the great snatch" Mike: I’m so glad you called that out, because I was going to call that out if you didn’t. That is the highlight of this book. Jessika: And they put it in such bold  different colored letters. It was in big red letters: The Great Snatch! And it was this woman flying into the air.  Mike: I was gonna say: It’s this woman… oh my god. Jessika: Oh I bet she is the great snatch.  I was laughing so hard when I read that. The long and the short is that Jesus Christ will be coming back to earth. The true believers will be abducted, without dying apparently,  [00:39:00] and eventually transported to what will be new heaven and new earth which is just one thing by the way. Both the comic and the book talk about the supposed events the mark the start to Christ’s second coming. Interesting fact I found about this comic in particular while the art is signed by Hartley on the cover, there is speculation that there were potentially multiple other artists involved in illustrating this comic, as some of the styles don't match up to Hartley’s through and through.  Mike: Yeah ,I noticed that some of the styles weren't quite cohesive. Jessika: You can tell they tried, but you can tell there's definitely some weirdness in there. And I was wondering what that was about when I was reading it myself. Mike: Yeah And also some of the faces  of some of the guys I was like, oh  you were clearly an extra from an Archie comic that has been inserted here. Jessika:  Exactly. And her face is so similar to so many other Hartley ones. The comic is a pretty faithfully distilled version of the book. [00:40:00] Although in my opinion is done in a much more organized and cohesive manner. The book provides much more scripture to back up his claims repetitively.  Mike: Well, they did that in the comic, too. Jessika: Oh they did but they didn't repeat them over and over and over and over again because that is what they did in the book. The same Bible passage would show it multiple times within very few pages. I'm just like didn't I just hear this Bible passage you're doing it again.  It was just it was a whole headache. There were also works of other authors referenced to build his case. But I found yet another interesting rabbit hole that I was unknowingly already knee deep in. One of the authors that Lindsey mentioned as being "a powerful writer of our time" and one he uses as an example is Carlos Castaneda. Which immediately piqued my interest as I was actually in the process of listening to a podcast about this very person.  Mike: Do I  want to know? Jessika: [00:41:00] Yes  Mike: OK, was it bad? I got a feeling that it’s bad. Jessika: You'll know right when I call out what podcast it is. And I want to give a huge thank you to Cult Podcast for this next information.  Mike: Welp. I have my answer. Jessika: Yup Yup I was right in the middle of the second of a two part series on Carlos Castaneda that they had done. And I heard that name within Lindsey's and I was like I guess I have to listen to the rest of that podcast before I really get involved. Now Castaneda pretty much went out to get cigarettes one day and left his family to go do a project in Mexico. No joke. He just left, not really a cigarettes part. That's kind of the Cult Podcast joke but  he left his family for a series of years so that he could go [00:42:00] and do an anthropological study in Mexico.  Mike:  How big was his family I'm curious.  Jessika: He had a wife and kids, at least a couple of kids.  Mike:  What a shitheel. Jessika: Oh absolutely. Cause like multiple years. Like he was just like bye. So he did the one thing you're not supposed to do when studying anthropology: Get involved in the local rituals and ceremonies anthropologists are supposed be studying the culture not getting involved.  Kind of a look don't touch kind of a thing. Mike:  Yeah they’re supposed to be neutral observers. Jessika: Yeah. Strip club rules. So this already a no-no in the scientific community. But he came back, wrote this killer thesis, followed by a best-selling book or two, got a ton of credit and notoriety based on his studying with this traveling shaman named Don Juan. I'm sure you'll be shocked to find out that there was no Don Juan and Castaneda's multi-year anthropological project in Mexico turned out to be more of a [00:43:00] vacation where Castaneda did a lot of peyote, slept with a lot of women, and scoured libraries so that he could pull bits and  pieces out of books and plagiarize them to make his own. So he used a bunch of different spiritual books out of them to make his thesis books coming up.  Mike:  Woooow. Jessika: Yeah. It wasn't until years later that somebody recognized one of the  pieces of his book and were like, "wait a second. That sounds like something I've read from this other book." And then it was just this whole can of worms where he was like “wait and this is plagiarized and this is plagiarized.” Mike: It was so much easier back then to pull off this kind of shit. I feel like I missed my opportunity to cheat my way through school, because even by the time that we were going through high school and college they were starting to get really aggressive about spot checking for plagiarism and things like that.  Now it's really hard to actually plagiarize stuff because of all  the software that’s out there. God damn. [00:44:00] Jessika: It was also easier to have a second family. Mike:  Before the age of social media. Jessika: Yeah. Change your name and… Mike: Can you even have a cult these days without social media? Jessika: You might be able to but I think probably a lot of them would be hinged on social media at this point. Like some of those other ones that have been really recent. Mike: You got to have those influencers who'll sell your cult on Tik ToK. Jessika: Oh my gosh. I find it fascinating that Lindsey chose to use this particular author to showcase the section of his argument for morality which is regarding abstaining from drugs by the way.  Mike:  I mean, probably he just didn’t know. Probably this dude hadn’t been exposed yet. Jessika: Oh no no. Check it out Castaneda most certainly did not abstain from drugs, as I mentioned. And in the book Lindsey makes some vague reference to drugs only being necessary at the beginning of the spiritual journey. So it's like he really was pro-drug but he's also  anti-drug. It was really strange. I re-read that section And I was like I don't know what you're talking [00:45:00] about.  And he credited Castaneda with ceasing to use drugs after a certain point. However it was really just that Castaneda was pretty burnt out after all of his heavy drug use and had to stop doing drugs for health reasons rather than spiritual ones. So while Lindsey doesn't list an exact date at the Rapture, he does make the following prediction. Mike, will you read this blurb from again biblio.com for me. Mike: Yeah, absolutely. “Hal Lindsey forecasted the end of days would be within the generation of the establishment of Israel. That was 1948. He concluded a generation in the Bible was 40 years. Therefore in 1988 Jesus would establish his kingdom.”  Jessika: So clearly that happened according to plan. 1988 was a crazy year, wasn't it? Jesus came back… Mike: Yeah. 1988 was 32 years ago and I don't remember the [00:46:00] rapture happening so Jessika: I mean, I was two, but I don't either.  Mike: yeah  Jessika: And we went to church and I wasn't taken is all I'm saying. What were your overall thoughts on the comic?  Mike: Hmm Hmm Hmm. Honestly the whole thing feels like just one giant drug trip which, now that I have this perspective, makes a lot more sense. But mainly that was because of all the swirling colors in the backgrounds and the clouds that are present throughout the entire comic.  I just don't know how else to summarize it.  It also feels like Hal Lindsey really used this for his own self promotion more than anything else.  For example, he gets top billing on both the cover and on the first page but the comic's narrated by these three nameless teens who were taken on a magical journey through the Rapture and end times when this girl opens her Bible to the book of Revelations. And then they narrate everything that's supposed to happen [00:47:00] and everything about it It's just this really passive boring exposition.  I don't understand who the target audience for this was.  Biblical apocalyptic fiction was such a massive thing in the nineties and it could definitely be made to feel more exciting. But it always feels universally terrible whenever it's done in  a quote earnest way.  I came of age during the era of those God awful fucking Left Behind books  and Tribulation Force and all of the media that they've put out around it. And it was just really not good. It actually makes me mad because this shit never feels like a good story it's always a vehicle for its creators’ egos. And again the Left Behind stuff, like Kirk Cameron I know was really involved with that too for a while. That dude's just a giant fucking shitheel. Whatever. But honestly  the best moment in this book is when everyone is getting raptured, and one of the kids that refers to the moment as the Great Snatch, like we were talking about.  The moralizing also feels really vague.  If you look at that one page that talks about societal [00:48:00] decay where they list all this really generic stuff like the decline of the family unit and then it shows a bunch of people going into and this was the quote “alternatives to marriage course.” Jessika: Like what is that? There's not a thing that's called that  Mike: I don't know. Like my family is literally the embodiment of alternatives to marriage, because  I'm registered as a domestic partner with Sarah. And we did it basically because it was the easiest thing to do during lockdown so that we could make sure that we're taken care of in case something happened to the other person basically we could mail it in. But we get all the same benefits but that wasn't thing back then. Gay marriage wasn't a thing back then. Was it just living together in sin and common law marriage? I don't understand what that was but everything about that  felt like it was that possibly racist argument that's  not quite being racist. But  one of the ongoing things is there's that decline of the black family that they love to sit there  and [00:49:00] pontificate on in conservative media where they talk about black fathers abandoning their families and stuff like that. And I've been around enough of that that it drives me up the wall whenever I hear it. I was kind of bored and kind of mad as I read through this thing because it was just it felt like they really squandered the opportunity to do something really weird and memorable here. Jessika: What I thought was really funny too about their  timing the events I was looking at the different events that they were listing and they were like "fire from the sky" I was like do you know many times that we could say fire from the sky and like a volcanic eruption or the blitzkrieg or you know there's all these different points in history. Any of these events could have been just this whole situation could have been popped into a different time period and anybody could have felt like they were in the apocalypse. We could be in the apocalypse right now, 2020 was a whole shithole. We had like death wasps. Mike: Yeah Yeah. My favorite was the one where   the helicopters coming out of the earth was that it [00:50:00] and there's a quote where it's talking about insects coming forth  with battle armor and they're giant. And they're like, “look he perfectly described helicopters 2000 years ago!”  Jessika: Yeah. He could have been talking about death wasps see? The killer bees. 2021, guys, maybe it's the coming apocalypse I don't know someone should be asking these questions now. Mike: Well I mean it certainly wasn't like Donald Trump wasn't the antichrist because he was supposed to bring us into a false peace or something like that. Jessika:Yeah That was not peaceful I know you would've thought though it really had pegged for that If I were going to say anything.  Mike: Yeah God. So it sounds like we're kind of aligned on this but I’m curious to hear your take on this comic. Jessika:  What I did like about it and just know I was so entrenched in this whole topic, because I listened to the book and then I also read the comic and I was just so refreshed that it wasn't the book, that I was like a little relieved.  I do love that it's an absolute time capsule [00:51:00] just like the estate sale I found it in the estate sale Literally They had  avocado green  carpet. Yeah like what is I a fringe or no a what's it called?  Mike: Shag. Jessika:  Shag. Thank you. Yeah they had avocado green shag.  just it was 1970 threw up in there. It was great I loved it. Mike: Could you rake the shag carpet? Was it that worn down? Jessika:  Oh it was like it was Yeah It was like it needed good rake first of all. But I did like the fashion and the overall vibe, cause that's just kinda my style anyway. So I was right there with the illustrations and the outfits drawn in the comic. And honestly if taken ironically the comic is funny as heck.  it's dated It obviously represents that has come and gone  without the promised fall of Armageddons hammer. So that was Spire  Christian comics for you in a nutshell. Mike: I don't know what I expected any expectations but [00:52:00] this blew away any expectations I could’ve had. Jessika: I mean hard same. Well let's mosey on along to our Brain Wrinkles which is the one thing that we just can't stop thinking about. Mike why don’t you start us off?   Mike: So there was a new clip for the upcoming Cruella movie that dropped this week. And… have you seen any of the trailers for this? Jessika:  I’ve seen one of them, and I generally don’t watch trailers but I was curious. Mike: Yeah I rolled my eyes so hard when that movie was announced. And every time I see something from it though I keep getting more interested.  I'm actually really digging how punk rock they're making Cruella. It's got a very 1970s British punk vibe which is 100% my jam. And also the cast in this movie is so fucking good. We're not going to pay to see it, obviously we're going to wait until it comes to the common folk on Disney Plus. But I'm curious to see what they do with her. I'm [00:53:00] not sure every villain needs a redemption arc which is something been seeing a lot of lately like the Maleficent movies,  but I appreciate it when it feels really well done Like the case with Harley Quinn, like I was talking about last week. Jessika: Yeah. Segues right into my brain wrinkle which is every once in a while on a daily basis, because I'm queer as hell, I think about Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy. And I think “good for her.” And also like goals of getting out of that bad relationship that Harley was in.  Ivy's so much better for Harley than that toxic ass joker. So. That whole relationship was skeevy I didn't like it. It was one sided and controlling and manipulative and I've never liked it. It's always kind of sat with me in a weird way.  And so when they had this spin I was like “thank goodness.” [00:54:00] Mike: Even when I was in my twenties and I saw people sharing those memes of “Oh  you just need someone crazy like you” and it's Harley and the Joker and I'm like “he's abusive!” Jessika: Yes. Yes.  Mike: Even I could see that. And I was terrible in my twenties. Jessika: It should be pretty obvious but somehow it just isn’t. I don't know    Jessika: Thanks for listening to Ten Cent Takes. Accessibility is important to us. Text transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our website.  Mike: This episode was hosted by Jessika Frazer and Mike Thompson, written by Jessika Frazer, and edited by Mike Thompson. That's me. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson Johnson of Bay area sound. Our credits and transition music is pursuit of life by Evan McDonald and was purchased with a standard license from Premium Beat. Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank who goes by cut_thistles on Instagram. Jessika: If you'd like to get in [00:55:00] touch with us, ask us questions, or tell us about how we got something wrong, please head over to tencenttakes.com tencenttakes@gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter: The official podcast account is tencenttakes.  Jessika is jessikawitha and Jessika is spelled with a K and Mike is vansau, V a N S a U.   Mike:   Stay safe out there. Jessika: And support your local comic shop.

There can be only one, but Highlander's had a surprising number of media adaptations and spin-offs over the years. We take a look at all of them and even get some behind-the-scenes gossip about the infamous comic book tie-in: Highlander 3030. ----more---- Episode Transcript   Episode 05 [00:00:00] Mike: It's fine. It's fine. I'm not bitter. Mike: Welcome to Tencent Takes, the podcast where we make comics trivia rain like dollar bills on Magic Mike night. My name is Mike Thompson and I am joined by my cohost, the mistress of mayhem herself, Jessika Frazer. Jessika: Muahahaha! It is I hello, Mike. Mike: Hello. If you're new to the podcast, we like to look at comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to check out their coolest, weirdest and silliest moments, as well as examine how they've been woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. Today, we are traveling through time and talking about the 35 year legacy of one of the strongest cult franchises around, Highlander. But [00:01:00] before we do that, Jessika, what is one cool thing that you've watched or read lately? Jessika: My brother has some copies of classic Peanuts Comics, and it's so much fun. It's good, wholesome, fun. And Snoopy- related media always makes me nostalgic. And Mike you've mentioned before that we're in California in the San Francisco Bay area, but fun fact, I live right near Santa Rosa, which is the home of the Peanuts creator Charles Schultz when he was alive. So there's a museum there and an ice skating rink. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Which is super awesome And Snoopy on ice was huge when I was a kid. And that is definitely the place I also learned to ice skate. By the way, they throw a mean birthday party, just saying, not right this second. Not this second. [00:02:00] We should do it is what I'm saying. Mike: We should do it for ourselves. Jessika: No, that's what I'm saying. Oh, I don't have children. Mike: But we do. Jessika: Yes, they can come with us, like they're invited. Mike: I mean, are they? Jessika: Look at you hesitating. Mike: We took the kids to the Peanuts museum right before the lockdowns happened. that really Jessika: That's really lovely that's nice got to do that. Mike: There’s a lot of cool stuff to do. It's really interactive. It's also just a really fascinating experience because there's so much about the Peanuts during their, what 50 year run give or take. It may not have been that long. It may have been 30 or 40, but it was a long time, and I really dug it, like there was a lot of cool stuff, so yeah . And also the cool thing about Santa Rosa is they've also got all those Snoopy statues all over town too. Jessika: They do. Yeah. All the [00:03:00] Peanuts characters actually. Cause they, the Charlie Browns and the Lucy's now and the Woodstocks. Yeah they're all over the place. But that used to be something fun we could do as a scavenger hunt, and actually that's something you guys could still do even with the lockdown. Cause most of them are outside is just find that list of where all the Snoopy's or whatever character is and go find them all. Cause we did that at one point, like as an adult, obviously. Well, what about you, Mike? Mike: The complete opposite of something wholesome. Jessika: Perfect. Mike: We didn't actually have the kids for a few days. They were with their dad and we couldn't find anything new to watch. So, we wound up bingeing the entire series of Harley Quinn on HBO Max. Jessika: Oh, you’re ahead of me then. Damn you. Mike: This is my third time going through the series. We've just gotten to the point where we turned it on when we want to watch something that's kind of soothing in a way, even though it is not a soothing TV show. But I still am [00:04:00] having these full on belly laughs where I'm breathless at the end and it's just, it's so smart and funny and absolutely filthy with the violence. And then there are these moments of sweetness or genuine reflection, and it's just so damn refreshing. I was never much of a Harley fan, but this show and then the Birds of Prey movie really made me fall in love with that character. Also side note, Michael Ironside who played General Katana and Highlander II. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: He shows up in Harley Quinn doing the voice of Darkseid, which is a character he's been voicing since the nineties when he first started doing it for the Superman animated series. Jessika: Oh, damn. Mike: So, just a little bit of symmetry there. Mike: All right. So before we begin, I have to say that this episode wound up being a rabbit hole full of other rabbit holes that I kept going down. So, I want to give a little credit where it's due for a ton of my research. I really wound up leaning on two books: John Mosby's Fearful Symmetry [00:05:00]; and A Kind of Magic: The Making of Highlander by Jonathan Melville. Likewise, there's a YouTube series called Highlander heart hosted by Grant Kempster and Joe Dilworthand, and an associated Facebook community with the same name that were just invaluable for my crash course. And finally, I want to give special, thanks to Clinton Rawls, who runs Comics Royale, and Matt Kelly for taking the time to chat with me because they didn't have to, and they provided me with some really useful information for this episode. Jessika: Yeah, I'm super excited about what lies in store. What's really funny is I've actually, I feel like a kid before it test. Mike: Right? Jessika: like I'm a little nervous because I've been cramming so hard for this Mike: We both have. Jessika: No, you, especially you, especially like you should be much more nervous than me, Mike. No, I’m just kidding, please don't take that on. Oh, but yeah, no I'm super excited and really ready to talk about all of this stuff and learn more because I've just been consuming the media and the [00:06:00] comic books. But, you’re going to give me some back knowledge that's gonna blow my brain and I'm excited. Mike: Oh, well, I'll try to live up to that high expectation. Let's assume that you didn't know what the topic of this episode was. And if someone asked you what cult property from the 1980s. Spawned five movies, two TV series, a Saturday morning cartoon, an anime film, several video games, multiple tabletop games, audio plays, roughly a dozen novels, and four okay, technically six different comic books. What would your first answer be? Jessika: Oh, goodness. What's funny is probably not Highlander. I'd probably I would say like Batman, honestly, Mike: Yeah I would've gone with something along the lines of G.I. Joe. Jessika: Oh, yeah. Mike: Or some weird Saturday morning cartoon, something like that. I never would have guessed Highlander. I never would have assumed that. but it's just, it's really surprising to see how [00:07:00] much has been generated out of this initial movie. Were you fan of the movies or the show before we started bingeing everything for this episode? Jessika: So I was actually a fan of the show via my dad who had it on hadn't watched the films before, because I was born in 1986 fun fact. Mike: Right. Jessika: I was born when this thing was sent into the world. We both were at the same time, apparently. I didn't have that exact experience of growing up watching it, but he definitely had the TV show on in the nineties Mike: Okay. Jessika: So that was what I was familiar with and I loved it and I would run around chopping things; I'd be at work, I was actually like when I got older I'd be like, there can only be one, and I’d like have to like swipe at someone. Mike: It’s such an iconic line. Jessika: iIt is! it transcends. Absolutely. Mike: Yeah. I was pretty young when the movie came out and the show was how I became aware of it. And then when the show was airing, I was in high school. And then I became [00:08:00] aware that there was a movie that had inspired it. And so I was able to rent that when I was old enough to be trusted, to go rent movies on my own by my parents. Back when we couldn’t stream everything. Jessika: Oh my gosh. Mike: And there were rewind fees, Jessika: Oh, my gosh. Be kind rewind. Mike: Speaking of things from the eighties: it’s funny we'll talk about it later on, but the show really brought in, I think a lot of people that otherwise wouldn't have been fans. Before we start talking about the comic books, I really want to take a few minutes to talk about all the media and content that spun out of Highlander because it's a lot. And it was honestly in a couple of cases, really surprising. I didn't know about half of this stuff before I began researching for the episode, and then. Like I said, it was just constant rabbit holes that kept on leading me down more and more research paths. And it was really fun. But I want to talk about all this now. Jessika: Perfect. This is exactly what we're here for, and I think that people want to hear it too. [00:09:00] Mike: I hope so. Okay. So why don't you summarize Highlander? If you had to give an elevator pitch, Jessika: The film follows the past and present of Connor MacLeod, an immortal who is just one of many vying to be the sole victor in an age old battle, where in the end, there can only be one. Like very simply a lot more to it, but like how much of an elevator pitch. Mike: I think that's pretty simple. It's about an immortal who basically keeps on fighting his way through history and there's these really wonderful catch phrases that get us hooked. The movies got actually a really interesting origin story of its own. It was written by this guy named Gregory Widen when he was in his early twenties. That was when he wrote the initial screenplay. But he had already had a really interesting life up until then. He was one of the youngest paramedics in Laguna Beach at that point in [00:10:00] time. And then he went on to become a firefighter while he was still a teenager. By 1981, he'd also worked as a DJ and a broadcast engineer. And then he signed up for a screenwriting course at UCLA and he wrote this feature length script called Shadow Clan. And it would go through a number of changes before it became Highlander. But the core theme of an immortal warrior named Connor MacLeod wandering across the centuries is there. He wound up getting introduced to producers Bill Panzer, and Peter Davis who decided to option the film. And then they hired the screenwriters, Larry Ferguson and Peter Bellwood to rework the script into what we eventually had wind up in theaters. And once the movie was green-lit, they brought in Russell Mulcahey to direct it. And I vaguely knew that Mulcahey had been doing music videos before this, for the most part, he had one other cult movie ahead of time. It was a horror movie, I think, called Razorback. But I didn't realize which music videos he'd been making until I started doing all [00:11:00] this research. So I'm going to give you a small sampling and you're going to tell me if you've heard of these. Jessika: Okay. Sure sure sure. Mike: Okay. The Vapors “Turning Japanese”. Jessika: Uh, yeah. Mike: Yeah, okay. The Buggles “Video Killed the Radio Star”. Jessika: Wow. Yes. Mike: Duran Duran Duran’s “Rio”. Jessika: Wow. Mike: And Elton John's “I'm Still Standing”. Jessika: Yeahwow. That's actually a variety of characters. Mike: Right? But also those all really iconic music videos. Like not only songs, but music, videos cause those were all in the very early days. And the dude's entire portfolio is just iconic. If you think about the music videos that really defined the genre Jessika: Yeah, sometimes you just got it, I guess. Huh? Mike: He has a lot of those music video elements. A lot of times in the movie, it feels like a music video, like when Brenda's being chased down the hall by the Kurgan and it's got all that dramatic lighting, or that opening shot where they're in the [00:12:00] wrestling match and you see the camera flying through everything. Jessika: Yes! Mike: That was wild. That was really unusual to see camera work like that back then. The movie was distributed by 20th century Fox. And I think at this point, We'd be more surprised of 20th century Fox did a good job of marketing weird and cool, because they really botched it. They wound up forcing cuts to the movie that created really weird plot holes because they didn't feel that audiences needed it or what would understand it, and they wanted to make it simpler, but it really made things more confusing. European audiences on the other hand, really embraced the film because they got a much better version. So case in point, I'm going to show you the two main posters for it. This is the American poster for the movie. Jessika: Mmhmm. Oh, wow, he’s scary. Wow wow wow, okay. Before I even say any of the words, what you first see is Connor [00:13:00] MacLeod, but it's this awful grainy picture of him. He looks like there's something wrong with his face, which he shouldn't necessarily. And he looks like he's about to murder someone. He's like glaring off into the distance. And at the top it says, Oh, it's in black and white, by the way. at the top it says, He fought his first battle on the Scottish Highlands in 1536, he will fight his greatest battle on the streets of New York city in 1986. His name is Connor MacLeod. He is immortal Highlander! Credits at the bottom, rated R, absolutely rated R. Mike: Also, I feel like featuring original songs by Queen does not get the billing that it should. Jessika: I agree. I jammed my way through that film and this just the whole series, [00:14:00] actually the whole franchise I jammed my way through. Mike: Yeah. And if you listen to the kind of Magic album that is basically the unofficial soundtrack to the movie, and it's so good I don't know how they got those perpetual rights to Princes of the Universe, did. Every time I hear that song, I get a little thrill up my spine. All right. So here's the poster though for the European release. Jessika: All right. So, Ooh, this is totally different. This is Whoa. This is way more exciting. Okay. First of all, it's full Color, my friends, right in the middle in red it says Highlander right under it “There can only be one” in yellow. Oh it's amazing. There's a little sticker at the bottom that says featuring original songs by queen. Look it, trying to sell it, I love it. And then there's Connor MacLeod in the center of the screen [00:15:00] dramatically head back eyes closed screaming his sword thrusts forward and behind him is the Kurgan, oh my gosh so good. It's so - Oh, and a backdrop of New York city. All in lights. It's beautiful. Mike: Yeah. It’s one of those things where basically, that documentary that we watched seduced by Argentina, they talk about that where they're just like 20th century Fox fucked us. Jessika: And I didn't realize how much until, because I did watch that as well. And I'm like how bad could it be? But I that's pretty bad. It's a pretty big difference. It's like watching, that'd be like going, expecting to see like psycho or something. Mike: Honestly, I keep on thinking of Firefly and Fox and how they just totally botched the marketing for that show and then the release, and issues with Joss Wheden aside. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: It’s one of those [00:16:00] things where again, it's a really beloved cult property with a really devoted fan base, even, 5 years after it was released, shit, almost 20. Jessika: And I do love Firefly, again, Whedon aside. Mike: I do too. Jessika: And it makes me a little sad think about it because it had so much potential. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Oh, it's so rough. It's rough to see. Mike: Yeah. What were your overall thoughts on the movie now that you've seen it because you hadn't seen it before this, correct? Jessika: No. I had only seen the TV show and probably rightfully so, because that was much less violent. I mean, much less graphically violent. They were still beheading motherfucker every episode, but, versus the film, which is like blood and like half a head and wow, there, it goes the head. But I actually really liked the movie. It was adventurous, it was thrilling and told a fairly cohesive and interesting storyline which unfortunately had an ending. But it still took us on an emotional journey. [00:17:00] Mike: Yeah, and I feel the same way. Jessika:: And how all the camp that I love from the 1980s and the special effects are just chefs, kiss love it. Mike: There is something so wonderful about the special effects from the 1980s, because they're so earnest all the time. And at the same time they look so cheesy by comparison now. Jessika: But you can tell they were trying so hard. It's almost like a little kid who's just learning to finger paint and they walk up and they're like, I did this thing. It's so good. You're like, it is really good. It's really good for where you're at. Mike: Yeah, exactly. Highlander is very much a quintessential eighties film to me, and there's both that nostalgia factor, but also it's a pretty tight little film. It doesn't really try to do anything too grandiose or too world-building because I don't think they expected to really make the sequels that they wound up doing. Which speaking of which we should discuss the sequels. [00:18:00] Mike: Like, I feel like you can’t discussion without talking about the sequels. And honestly the first time I ever heard of Highlander as a brand really was when I was visiting family in Texas And we were watching a Siskel & Ebert episode where they were thrashing Highlander II. Jessika: Dude, Siskel and Ebert I'm sure hated this. This does not surprise me in the least. Mike: I don't remember much about it, I just remember being like, oh Sean Connery's in a movie, well that's cool. Because my parents had raised me on all of the Sean Connery James Bond movies. Jessika: Yeah casting, come on. Why? Why? They had a French dude playing a Scottish guy and a Scottish guy playing a Spanish Egyptian guy. It's. Mike: I believe label was a Hispaniola Egyptian. They kinda darkened up Sean Connery a little bit too. I'm not sure. Jessika: It felt that way. I was just hoping he had just been under the tanning beds, but no, I think you're right. [00:19:00] Mike: Highlander II was definitely the most infamous of the sequels. And I mean a huge part of that is because it had such a batshit production and there’d been so many different versions of it. It was so bad that Russell Mulcahey reportedly walked out of the film premiere after only 15 minutes. There's this great documentary that you and I both watched on YouTube, it's split up into a bunch parts, but it was a documentary they made for the special edition of Highlander II. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: It was the third release of the movie that they put out because the first one was basically the bonding company for the films. Investors took over the production and assembly of the movie due to the fact that Argentina, where they were filming. And they had gone to Argentina because a, it was gorgeous, but B because it was supposedly going to be a third of the cost Jessika: Yeah. Mike: To make a movie there than it would elsewhere. Argentina’s economy collapsed and went through hyperinflation. And as a result, everything just went haywire. But they went back years later and they not only recut the [00:20:00] movie, but they refilled or added in certain scenes I think four or five years later. And then on top of that, they did the special edition a few years after that, where they redid the special effects. And I don't know it's kind of funny because it's not a bad movie now. It's not terrible. I feel it's an enjoyable film in its own way. But it's also funny where you watch that documentary and they're talking about the stuff that they're so proud of. Russell Mulcahey was talking about how proud he was of that love scene. I'm using this in quotes, love scene between Virginia Madsen and and Christopher Lambert where they just decided to do it up against the wall of an alley? Jessika: That’s always an interesting choice to me. Like you really cannot wait. Mike: Yeah. And then he was like, I thought that was a really hot scene. And I got to sit there and I'm like, I don't, I can't view this through the lens of, a 20 something guy in the 1990s. I don't know what my interpretation of it would have been then, [00:21:00] but watching it now watching it for the first time when I was in my twenties and the, in the early aughts, I just was like, this is weird and sorta dumb. And also they don't really have a lot of chemistry, but okay. Jessika: Yeah, it just kind of happens. They're just like, Oh, here you are. Mike: Yeah Right I don't know. At the same time it was cool to see they did all those really practical, special effects where they actually had them whipping around on the wires on like the weird flying skateboards and stuff. I thought that was cool. Jessika: I thought that was neat too. And how he was like, yeah, I actually got on top of the elevator and he was excited. Now he got on top of the elevator. Mike: And then they basically just dropped it down, like that's wild. So how about Highlander three? Jessika: Ahhh… Mike: Yeah, that’s kinda where I am Jessika: It’s very forgettable in my book. Mike: I feel like you could wipe it from the timeline and no one would care. Really, it felt like a retread of the first movie, but with the shittier villain in a way less interesting love story. honestly, it was a bummer because Mario [00:22:00] Van Peebles, the guy who plays that the illusionist I can't even remember his name. It was that forgettable. Jessika: Yeah, no, I can't either. Mike: Mario van Peebles is a really good actor and he's done a lot of really cool stuff. And it just, it felt like he was the NutraSweet version of the Kurgan Jessika: I like that. Yes. Yes. Mike: All of the mustache twirling, none of the substance. Jessika: It leaves a little bit of a weird taste in your mouth. Mike: Right. Splenda Kurgan! Moving on Highlander, Endgame. Jessika: What I do like about this film is that in both the TV series, as well as the film, there is the actual crossover. Connor shows up in Duncan's world and Duncan shows up in Connor's world and there is that continuity, which is good. And I do appreciate that because, before I got into this, I assumed that the character was interchangeable and we were just seeing different actors James [00:23:00] Bond situation. And when I went back and realized like, Oh no, he's his own character, they're blah, you know. Mike: I dunno I saw this in theaters I love the show and I appreciated that it felt like an attempt to merge the movies in the series and of the movies, I feel like this actually has the strongest action scenes. There's that bit where Adrian Paul faces off against Donnie Yen. And I was like, that's gotta be really cool to be able to sit there and show your kids much later in life: hey, I got to do a martial arts scene with Donnie Yen and he didn't kill me in the movie. that's pretty dope. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: Again, it felt underwhelming. It just wasn't all that interesting. And also I spent years being mad at that movie because the trailer brought me into the theater expecting something way different than what we were going to get Jessika: Okay. And I don't know that I saw the trailer. Mike: It has, it has a bunch of scenes with Magic where Connor and Duncan jumped through a portal [00:24:00]. Jessika: What? Mike: And a sword gets thrown at Jacob Kell and he catches it midair. And then he does something else where he's holding a sphere where you see Connor's face screaming and then it shatters. Jessika: What’s with all this weird, extra scene stuff in these trailers. I don't understand. Mike: Yeah, it turns out that this hasn't, this has never really been officially confirmed, but reading between the lines yeah, it’s been confirmed. They basically filmed extra scenes just to make it more appealing for people. So they would show up to the theaters. Like they filmed scenes, effectively they filmed scenes just for the trailer the director when he was asked about it in Fearful Symmetry. He basically said, yeah, I know there was some stuff that they filmed for marketing afterwards, and I wasn't involved with that. And then I think it was Peter Davis that was asked about this for the book. And he basically said, Oh, this is a really standard practice. People, or accompanies [00:25:00] film stuff for for marketing purposes all the time. And that's where he left it. Jessika: Oh, okay. to know. Mike: I was really grumpy about that, but that said I've softened a little since then. Do we even want to talk about the Source? Cause I feel like that's something that we shouldn't talk about in polite company. Jessika: No pass. Mike: Okay. Jessika: It happened? Mike: It happened, it was a thing that happened that was going to be a trilogy. They were planning to make that into a trilogy of movies. Jessika: Ohh rough times. Mike: Oh it's real bad. I don't think you were able to watch this, but Highlander, the search for vengeance. It's the anime. Jessika: No, I couldn't find it. Mike: Yeah. It's not available for streaming and it really it's really a bummer because it's actually pretty good. I'm not quite sure how to qualify it because it's not a live action movie and it doesn't star Duncan or Connor, but it's a full length anime. It's a full length movie in its own right. It focuses on Colin MacLeod who he’s [00:26:00] an immortal, who's technically part of the MacLeod clan. He's born as a Roman Britain and then he's adopted into the MacLeod clan after he fights alongside them later on. They keep on doing this. They keep on going back to dystopian SciFutures, which I kinda like, Jessika: I love, bless their little hearts. Mike: Yeah. A lot of the story actually takes place in this post-apocalyptic 22nd century, New York. And I haven't seen this in about a decade because it's not available on streaming. I don't have the DVD anymore. I really should pick it up before it goes out of print. But the movie fucking slaps. It was directed by Yoshiaki Kawajiri, he was really big in the nineties. He did Ninja Scroll and Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust. He's known for really cool looking movies that are also really violent at the same time. Like you look at his characters and you're like, Oh yeah, no, they all look interchangeable because they're also similar one movie to another, Jessika: Oh, I see. Mike: But they're really cool. And the movie was written by David Abramowitz, who was the head writer [00:27:00] for the TV show. So it felt like a pretty legit Highlander story. Honestly, if we had to talk about this and ask which of these movies or the sequels were our favorites, I would probably say the Search for Vengeance. Because I loved it so much, but since that wasn't a theatrical release, we'll exclude that and you didn't get to watch it. Of the sequels, which did you enjoy most? Jessika: Mike, why don’t you go first. Mike: Okay. I'm a little torn, I guess I enjoyed Endgame mainly because it feels like part of he in quotes, real Highlander story, I guess it's the least terrible of the sequels. And it brought in my favorite characters. The final version of Highlander II, is I don't know. I don't hate it. It honestly feels like a cool dystopian cyberpunk story with some bizarre Highlander lore shoehorned in, but at the same time, it's not the worst thing I've ever watched. How about you? Jessika: Funny [00:28:00] enough, I was going to say Highlander II, but maybe just a bit more so if it were its own standalone movie and not try to be a part of the Highlander franchise. The idea of the shield is super interesting and I think they could have elaborated more on the lead-up and the resolution of that issue rather than having to also make it about the Immortals in their forever game. Mike: Yeah, I agree. How do you feel about moving onto the TV series? Jessika: Oh, I am pro. Mike: Okay. I personally feel like this is the property that sucks all the air out of the room when you're talking about Highlander. Jessika: Oh no. Mike: Yeah, I mentioned that this is how I really got introduced to the brand. I started watching it in high school, around season three, which was when it was really starting to get good. The first two seasons I feel were kind of when they were ironing out all the rough spots. But I wound up watching it through the end. So if you're listening to this podcast and you have never seen the [00:29:00] show Highlander, the series ran for six seasons, which is a good length of time for any TV show. And it followed the adventures of Duncan, who was another member of the MacLeod clan. He was a distant cousin of Connor. And the show bounced between Seacouver, which is a fictionalized version of Vancouver in Paris. And it basically retcon things so that the original movie didn't end with The Quickening, but that the battle between the Kurgan and Connor was it's implied, it was the start of The Gathering. That's my interpretation of it. Jessika: That was what I got too. Mike: Yeah. And Christopher Lambert, he shows up in the pilot to help set things up and get them moving. But I think that's the only time we ever really seen him on the show. Jessika: Correct. He's really just an intro. He's in that first episode only. Mike: You have rewatched it as a have I . We haven't watched the entire series all the way through, but we've watched a lot of episodes. Jessika: Correct. Mike: How do you feel [00:30:00] it measures up today? compared to that nostalgic view that we had before, Jessika: I had a lot of fun watching it, actually. definitely super cheesy. I don't love all of the characters I watched a lot of the first season, then I bounced around I think I did the top, like 25 on a list that you sent me. But Duncan’s just so codependent sometimes with his characters and it's like the one time the Tessa goes on a hike by herself, she gets kidnapped by an, a mortal and it’s like, oh my God, she can't even go on a fucking hike, are you joking me? And the one time he goes to the store by himself, he gets kidnapped and it's like, oh, come the fuck on you guys. Mike: Yeah, I feel like it generally holds up pretty well. It's a little uneven, but when it hits , it really hits. And it's a lot of fun. And considering that it was a relatively low budget show on basic cable in the early to mid-nineties, there's a lot of stuff that has aged way worse. [00:31:00] Jessika:: Absolutely. It exceeded my expectations on the rewatch, for sure. Mike: Yeah, and I have to say that one really cool thing about Highlander is it's got a really large female fan base. And I suspect that the show is really responsible for that. Jessika: I would agree. There's a few reasons. Mike: Are six of those reasons. Duncan's abs? Jessika: Like 10 of those reasons are all the times he gets surprised in a bathtub. I know I messaged you while I was watching them, because I was like Duncan got surprised in a bathtub again. Mike: I don't remember which episode it was, but there's one where he is surprised while he's in a bathrobe and he's got, it's not even tighty whities, it’s like a bikini brief, and watching that, I was just sitting there going, thank you for this gift. Thank you. Thank you for this visual treat that you have given us in the middle of my very boring work day. Jessika: It’s [00:32:00] also that there are such a wide variety of female characters. I would say, Iit’s not just the other female person he seeing or whatever, the love interest, there are other female Immortals and they a lot more frequently than they do in the films. I can't recall if they have any female immortals in the films. Mike: They do in Endgame. Jessika: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I thought there was, there were some in there, but that’s tailing into, I mean yeah. Mike: Yeah. And the Source had them too, but meh. Jessika: Oh yeah. Mike: I will say that the show was pretty good about writing pretty strong female characters, I felt. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: And we'll talk about Amanda in a little bit, but I have to say that I really liked how she was written and how Elizabeth Grayson played her through the original series and then her own afterwards. I dunno. I, what do you think is the sexiest thing about Duncan MacLeod? I'm curious. Jessika: He seems [00:33:00] really like trustworthy, but like and sexy trustworthy. It's like, he'd be the dude. I called if some guys were fucking with me. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: I kept on thinking about how there's this Tumblr post that's been going around the internet, regularly, and it's this discussion about which Disney men women find the sexiest guys always thinks it's Gaston. Jessika: Oh lord, why? Mike: It’s that male power fantasy thing where they're just like, oh no, like he's like really charming. And he's really muscly. And the counterargument from women is usually A no Gaston sucks and B we all like Roger from 101 Dalmatians. Jessika: Oh yeah. Roger. Mike: Which, Roger is very much my personal role model. The dude's a talented musician, he loves animals and he's got that great, a snark where he literally is trolling the villain when she comes to his house with a motherfucking trombone from upstairs [00:34:00]. And I think Duncan's a little like that. Like he's cultured and he's worldly and he's got this wicked sense of humor. And he's also the type of dude who has no problem reciting poetry in public or making his partner breakfast in bed. Jessika: Yeah, absolutely. Mike: So it just it was something that came to mind while I was rewatching all this stuff. Jessika: Yeah. just as like a wholesome guy. Mike: Right? Jessika: He always has good intentions. So that's actually what it feels like. He's always coming at things with good intentions. Mike: Yeah, and he's not perfect, but he's always trying to do the right thing, which I really appreciate. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: What was your favorite episode? Jessika: I went back and forth. I really like the Homeland episode, and like I said, I've really only watched a good chunk of most of season what I would say, and then so kind of bounced around, but season four, episode one. It was really sweet to see [00:35:00] Duncan take the obligatory trip back to his Homeland to pay respects. And it also had a good lesson in not judging a book by its cover as the main character assumes that Duncan is just an ancestry tourist, which was super interesting. She was super hating on it but I was like this is interesting instead of visiting what once was literally his home during formative years. So it was just such a wild thing to see her be like, what are you doing near those graves? And he can't really be like, they were my parents because you cannot even read them. They are so old. Mike: The funny thing is I didn't rewatch that episode during our refresher, but I remember watching that episode when I was about 15 or so. Because it's stuck out to me. Jessika: It’s really good. And of course, Duncan, he always has a good intention. The whole reason he went back was because he figured out that somebody had been [00:36:00] pilfering graves Mike: Yeah. Jessika: And he had to return what was in this grave. Mike: I know he's making the rest of us look bad. So mine is, it's unusual suspects. It's from season six, which I feel is actually pretty weak season overall. And it's this really silly one-off episode, starring Roger Daltry of the Who fame. He plays Hugh Fitzcairn, which is a character that he shows up in plays a couple of times throughout the series. And at this point in time in the story, he was dead, but it's a flashback to the 19 teens or 1920s. 1920s, because it ends with the stock market crash, but it's a take on the British country, house murder, mystery genre, and it's really fun. And it was just this really refreshing moment of levity after what I felt our run of really heavy, and in my opinion, not very good episodes. The end of season five and the beginning of season [00:37:00] six are all about Duncan confronting this demon named Aramon and it's weird and it's not very good. And I really don't enjoy it. This is all my opinion. I'm sure that I'm insulting some Highlander fan who absolutely loves this, but it's a fun episode in its own. And then it's a good moment after one that I didn't really enjoy. And so it's got that extra refreshing bonus. I just, I want to note, it's really funny to me how intertwined Highlander has always been with rock and roll and music in general, because they had Mulcahey who do it, doing all these music videos and stuff. And then they kept on having musicians show up as guest stars. I think it was there's a character named Xavier St. Cloud, I think who was played by one of the guys from, again, I think, Fine Young Cannibals? Jessika: Yeah, I think I actually watched that episode. Mike: I think he was using nerve gas to kill people. Jessika: Yes I did watch that episode. That was a wild one. Yeah. Mike: Yeah, and I think he shows up later on too. [00:38:00] I can't remember but anyway, I really appreciate that they gave Roger Daltry of all people, this character, and he just really had fun with it and they kept bringing him back. Jessika: Yeah. He was a good character every episode he was in my other favorites was the one where they had Mary Shelley and he was in that one too. I believe. Mike: I think so. Yeah. No, it was, the series was really fun, and I liked that we can sit there and pull all these episodes just from memory that we really liked. Jessika: Absolutely. Mike: So season six , they were trying to find a new actress who could carry her own Highlander show. And so they tested out a bunch of different actresses in season six and gave them either really strong guest appearances, or they were basically the main character for episodes. But they wound up not going with any of them. They went with Elizabeth Grayson and gave her the Raven where she reprised her roles Amanda. Did you watch any of that? Did you get a chance to? Jessika: I watched the [00:39:00] first and the last episode of season one, I can only find the first season. Is there only one? Mike: There’s only one season, it didn’t get picked up again. Jessika: Oh then there you go. Then I could have only, I know I was scratching my head. Worried about where else do I find this? Mike: Well, and it ends on a cliff-hanger. Jessika: Yeah, exactly. That's where I was like, let's go. Mike: It ends with Nick becoming immortal. Jessika: Oh, see, I didn't quite finish it. Cause I was hurriedly setting it up in the background. Mike: Yeah it was fine. I thought Elizabeth Grayson is really charming in that role, but at the same time, there wasn't a lot of chemistry initially between Amanda and Nick, I felt at the very beginning. Jessika: I agree, not in the first episode. Mike: By the end of the season, it was there, and I think they were also, as is the case with most shows first seasons, they were trying really hard to figure out what they wanted to do. And so originally it was a cop show with an immortal, which there are certainly worse pitches that I've heard. Jessika: Yeah. No, I agree. Mike: But yeah. sad that it didn't get to go further [00:40:00] Jessika: I'm tempted to go back and watch all of these things. I may have to do a pallet cleanse of something different. I may have to go back to my Marvel watching. Mike: On top of this, there was a Saturday morning cartoon called Highlander, the series or Highlander, the animated series, and it was set in the future. It's in a weird alternate timeline. It stars another MacLeod. It's fine It's a Saturday morning cartoon. I didn't even care enough to really go back and watch it because being that great. They did some interesting stuff. Like they brought Ramirez back if I remember, right. And then they also had a thing where instead of beheading other Immortals, the main character had an ability where he could be voluntarily given their power. Jessika: Oh. Mike: So he had all of their knowledge and power. And again, it’s again in a dystopian future where another immortal has taken over the world. Jessika: Wow. They just love their dystopian future. Mike: They really do. But yeah, it's fine. I think it's streaming on Amazon prime. I was just so focused on everything else that I didn't get a chance to go and [00:41:00] rewatch it. Jessika: Huh, good to know. Mike: We're going to go over all the other various pieces of media real quick. and then we've got one side tangent and then we're going to go through comic books, but. Jessika: I'm so excited. Mike: Books, Highlander wound up having a pretty substantial literary footprint. The original movie had the official novelization. There wasn't really anything after that until the show came out and then the show had 10 novels and an anthology and an official behind the scenes kind of book called the Watchers Guide and it's full of essays and interviews and photos. And since then, there've been a couple of non-fiction books, like Fearful Symmetry, which is about everything Highlander related. And it's almost like a textbook, but it's pretty good. And then there's also A Kind of Magic, which is more focused on making of the original movie. And those are both actually really good. I liked them a lot. They were really easy to read. [00:42:00] There were audio plays, which I keep on forgetting audio plays are a thing at this point, but it's by this company called Big Finish in the UK. They do tie-in audio dramas for television properties. Most famously they do Dr Who. They wound up doing two seasons of audio plays. The first had Adrian Paul reprise his role as Duncan and they take place after the series ended. And then also after the events of Endgame, you can't really find them anymore. Because they just, the license expired so they aren't selling them as far as I'm aware. Jessika: That's super interesting though. Dang. Mike: Yeah. And then the second season focuses on the four horsemen Immortals, remember Jessika: Okay. Mike: Do you remember them? Jessika: I sure do. Mike: Because we were talking about this a little bit, but it was all about Methos and the other guys that he hung out with when he was effectively, a comic book villain who would've if he’d had a mustache to twirl, he would have done it. Jessika: So quickly. Yes. Mike: I thought that was really interesting. There were a couple of people in the Highlander Heart [00:43:00] group who talked about it and they seem to really like them. I can't comment, but it was really neat. Games, this is the one that's really interesting. Highlander actually has been turned into a number of games over the years. There's a couple of tabletop games we're going to breeze through. So there was two different card games in a board game. One of the card games was released back in the nineties, it was a collectible card game. And this was right when Magic: The Gathering was really hot and everybody was trying to get in on that action. And then recently there's a new one called Highlander: The Duel. And it's a deck-building game where you play as Connor or the Kurgan going up against each other. And just a couple of years ago, there was a board game that got kick-started, it was in 2018 and it's this fast paced game for two to six players. The reviews across the web were pretty positive. And again, it's one of those things where it's Immortals battling for that mysterious prize. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: But it's cool. Jessika: Nice. Mike: I’m actually pretty surprised [00:44:00] we never got like a tabletop RPG because they are not precious about applying the license for Highlander to stuff. I'm amazed that nobody went to them and said, Hey, we can make this cool historical RPG where we sorta start having players wake up and then they have flashbacks or whatever. And Jessika: Yeah Oh that would have been cool Yeah Mike: Right? But yeah we never got anything like that which I was really I actually that was the one thing I expected and was surprised to see that we never got. Okay. So we're going to go into mini tangent with video games even though they aren't technically related to comics. The first game for Highlander was a 1986 tie-in release for home computers. It was a really simple fighting title. It wasn't well received. It was apparently pretty bad. So after that the animated series had a tie in called Highlander: Last of the MacLeods. It was released on the Atari Jaguar CD console. If you remember that. Do you remember the Atari Jaguar? Jessika: Oh my god, no. I don't. [00:45:00] Mike: It kinda got lost in the shuffle in the early to mid nineties of all the different consoles that were coming out. But you can find footage of this on YouTube and it's one of those early 3d games. And so it got a lot of praise for his exploration elements and animated video sequences, but it also got a lot of criticism for its controls in combat. After that there was actually going to be an MMO called Highlander, The Gathering. And it was in development by a French studio called Kalisto entertainment, which was honestly weird because Kalisto's catalog up until now were mostly middling single-player games. They'd gotten famous for a series called Nightmare Creatures, but they also did a Fifth Element racing game on PS2 that I had and was actually pretty fun. Anyway, Kalisto went bankrupt before the MMO could come out. Jessika: Oh! Mike: And none of the folks who, yeah, that's video games. Jessika: Fair enough. Mike: So they went bankrupt. The MMO hadn't come out yet. And the folks who wound up with the rights afterwards just decided to kill the project. There's [00:46:00] one other game. That's become the source of a lot of speculation. And it's only known as Highlander: The Game it basically came about because Davis Panzer productions that's, the guys who own the rights to Highlander, and SCI, which was this holding company that owned a bunch of video game groups. They decided to ink a deal, to make a Highlander game. They announced that they basically had done a partnership back in like 2004, 2005. And at the time SCI owned Eidos who was the publisher that gave us Tomb Raider. So they were a pretty big name. The game itself was formally announced by Eidos in 2008 and the development was being handled by another French developer called Widescreen Games. It was going to be an action role-playing game. It would star a new Immortal named Owen MacLeod. The story was going to be written again by David Abramowitz and that added some [00:47:00] serious legitimacy to the project for fans. Actually, why don’t you read the summary. Jessika: Would love to my pleasure. Summary: Owen is captured and enslaved by Romans who force him to compete as a gladiator. During this time, Owen dies only to come back to life. Methos, the oldest living immortal approaches Owen to be his mentor. He teaches Owen about the game and how he and other Immortals can only be slain by beheading. As with other immortal MacLeods Owen is pursued throughout his life by a nemesis. This enemy proves to be extremely powerful. One that Owen is unable to defeat Owen learns of a magical stone, fragments of which are scattered all over the world. Throughout the game, Owen embarks upon a quest to recover these fragments and restore the stone in an attempt to gain the power to overcome his foe. [00:48:00] So dramatic. I love it. Mike: What's Highlander without any drama? But that sounds rad right? Jessika: Oh, it sounds amazing. Mike: The game was announced with a trailer in 2008 that really only showed some of the environments from different eras and then it ended with an image of Owen, but it looked promising. And then there wasn't much else after a couple of years of pretty much nothing but radio silence, Eidos wound up canceling the game and that's where a lot of the speculation has started. There's not a lot of information on Highlander: The Game. I keep waiting for one of those gaming history YouTubers to get ahold of an old dev kit and then do a video with a build, but that hasn't happened yet. So really it's all kind of speculation and wishful thinking about what could have been. And it also seems like some of the details are getting muddied as time goes on. Like Fearful Symmetry talks about the game of it but they [00:49:00] have the segment. And again I want you to read this. Jessika: Sure sure. The gam was so far along in its development stages that segments including backdrops and some of the gameplay options were presented at a Highlander Worldwide event in Los Angeles 2006 and got a very positive reaction. The beautifully rendered backdrops were almost movie quality and included the likes of Pompei, a dark forest in the Highlands, New York, and Japan as gameplay locations and introduced us to another MacLeod, Owen, the same surname but a much earlier vintage. Mike: Yeah, so, I think Mosby is a little overly enthusiastic about all of this, and this is because I think Mosby doesn't have much familiarity with how game development works. It sounds like they had concept art on display and were discussing gameplay [00:50:00] rather than showcasing a build of the game. Concept art and design discussions are things that happen very early in game development. But if you're an outsider, looking in this stuff could easily be interpreted as things being much further along than they were. Jessika: Ah. Mike: Yeah. Now that said, I did work in video games for almost a decade, and a few of my coworkers were actually involved with Highlander the game. Jessika: What? Mike: Every one of them over the years has told me the cancellation was a mercy killing. And again, this is from multiple sources, so I'm not going to name or identify because, I don't want to make things awkward for them. But basically the game was garbage . It's not really surprising to hear cause widescreen never really made a good game, the best reception that any of their titles got was just kinda mixed. But earlier this week, I actually called one of my friends. Who'd been [00:51:00] attached to the project because I wanted to get more information about this game before we recorded. Jessika: We need to get you a new shovel, you dug so deep for this. Mike: With both hands. But, they confirmed what I've been hearing from other people the gameplay itself wasn't just bad. It was boring. The biggest problem was it didn't know what kind of a game it wanted to be. Basically, it was trying to do everything all at once. There were a bunch of traversal elements, which didn't really make a lot of sense. Like why would you climb a Manhattan skyscraper when you're a roided out dude with a sword? Couldn't you just take the elevator? Or I don't know the stairs? There was going to be a bunch of Magic elements in the gameplay, which, isn't really, that's not really a thing in Highlander. There's that fantasy element because we're talking about Immortals who can't die unless you cut off their heads, but generally Magic isn't a part of the accepted Canon. And then the combat, what they were aiming to do something like [00:52:00] God of war, which was really big at the time. But, it wasn't great. My friend also pointed out that Owen looked like a bodybuilder, but his fashion sense was from that industrial metal scene of the late nineties, which neither of those things really fits with the Highlander aesthetic because Adrian Paul was arguably the most in shape of the Highlander actors. But even that was, he was a dude who was like, yeah, I could achieve that if I was really good about my diet and then just worked out aggressively but not like Hugh Jackman does for his Wolverine roles. Jessika: Yeah, yeah. Mike: So I'm going to send you a screenshot of what Owen looked like in the key art the initial title it does. Jessika: What? It looks like Criss Angel. Mike: Right. And they're trying to recreate that iconic pose of The Quickening from the first movie that Connor does at the very end where he's getting raised up and, by the rails of Lightning, or the wires [00:53:00] of lightning. Jessika: Yeah, I get what they were trying to do. Mike: Yeah,I wanna know, what the fuck is up with those weird straps with rings that are going down his legs. Jessika: I don't really know, I was trying to figure that out myself. So just so that everyone can really get the picture that we're getting here and you'll, you might understand why it's taken me so long to describe it. I had to take it all in first. Mike: Yeah, it’s a ride. Jessika: It’s all very monochromatic. And the background is of course, a cut of the statue of Liberty, the backdrop of parts of New York that I'm sure aren't even next to each other, which is always funny. And then what is this? Is this the new guy, or is this supposed to be Duncan? Mike: Yeah, this is the new guy, Jessika: It’s Owen. Mike: Yeah. It's Owen. And then Connor and Duncan were supposed to appear, supposedly. I know Peter Wingfield was recording his lines for Methos. Jessika: Well, if they haven't killed off Methos that makes sense. And I don't know in the series if they have, and maybe Duncan makes [00:54:00] sense if he hasn't died yet, but. Mike: Yeah they can't kill off Methos, Methos was my first gay crush. Jessika: Yeah. He's. Slightly problematic in a couple episodes, but he's a great character overall. But he's very Chriss Angel, he's wearing like a trench coat and that has to be some sort of a lace undershirt or something. Mike: lAnd he’s got like a weird really, like baggy leather pants. Jessika: Yes. Which cannot be comfortable. It's doing this weird pooching thing in the front. Mike: Yeah, and then I think I saw another screenshot where it looks like he's wearing skater shoes tennis shoes as well. Jessika: Oh, Vans Off the Wall, man. Mike: Just once I want to see a MacLeod in the movies with a good fashion sense. Jessika: Yeah, I mentioned that I wanted to cosplay as Duncan, which overall would be a great idea. But then I was looking through his outfits and I'm like, what do I wear? Do I wear this weird white tank top with these like acid wash jeans [00:55:00] and a belt? Or is this the one where I'm wearing like five shirts and a long jacket? Is it that day? Mike: You know who he looks like that guy, Canus. Jessika: Yes! Yes, does. He has the lace shirt and everything. Mike: And the dog collar. Jessika: Oh my god, it was so funny. I told you, I think it was trying to be edgy. Mike: Yeah, and instead it comes off as really queer-coded. Jessika: It really does though. I know, my little queer brain was like bling. Mike: Yeah, It feels like they weren't really getting the essence of what Highlander actually was and who these guys were, because usually the Highlander characters are a little bit more believable and ordinary because that's the whole idea is that they're walking among us and we have no idea unless they tell us. Okay. On top of all this. So remember how I mentioned that trailer was just showcasing environments for the [00:56:00] game. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: There was a reason for that. The reason was that they couldn’t get the character models to work. Jessika: Oh! Mike: So the shot of Owen at the end it's actually just animated key art it's the same it's the same art that you just saw. It's that image. It was just slightly animated. And then they released a couple of screenshots for the game, but apparently they were really heavily photo-shopped well, beyond industry standards. So, it was one of those things where, this was a turd and it needed to be flushed. And it finally did. But Widescreen went under about a year after the game was formally announced. They were working on another big project and apparently that got taken away, and as a result, it just caused the studio to implode. By this point in time Square Enix the guys do all the final fantasy games had bought Eidos and they formally canceled it. We're not sure why exactly, my guess is that it was probably, they just looked at cost it would take to finish this game and then the [00:57:00] amount that it would need to sell in order to be profitable or to meet their sales expectations for it and they just thought it wasn't worth it. But yeah, my friend actually said they were embarrassed to work on it and they would have been fine even if it had been an average game, but it was just bad. Even one of those kind of middling average games, I think that would have been fine, that would have lived up to the Highlander bar. Finally, there's that Highlander game that spark unlimited was working on. I never even heard a whisper about this until. We watched that episode of Highlander Heart focusing on video games, and they brought Craig Allen on to talk about the project. Based on what we know now, I think this might be why Square Enix was holding onto the rights for another year after they shut down Highlander, the game, just because they had this other title, theoretically in development or very early development. Based on the footage that they have, it looks like they had at least done enough development work to put together a vertical slice that they could show for pitch [00:58:00] purposes and at conventions. But I thought it was really promising looking overall. What did you think? Jessika: I thought it did look really interesting the game play itself I did like the idea of having a female Highlander. That being said, they had this whole concept about what Craig Allen was calling beautiful damage. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: And it was this whole thing about, oh it was the first female Highlander and her looks go when she gets damaged, and that's her whole motivation is to stay pretty. And I just, that gave me a huge headache, and it of course was super male-gazey I mean, the game itself seemed that way. Mike: It was weird because I would love to see women and Highlander being built a little bit more like warriors, like a little bit more muscly, which would be in keeping with people who battle across the centuries. [00:59:00] They don't need to be super jacked like the Amazons in Wonder Woman, but making them look like stick thin suicide girl, punk rock chick from the late aughts. Didn't quite gel with me. I understood what he was talking about though, because that was the thing where they were starting to do permanent cosmetic damage in video games. That was something that was really big in the Batman Arkham games. Every time that you got knocked out, you'd come back and you'd have a little bit more of your outfit chipped apart. So, after a while Batman's looking pretty ragged and you realize maybe I'm not as good at this game as I think I am. Jessika: Yeah And the concept itself is really interesting It just I guess was the way it was phrased by this person. And it very much was he was so proud of the fact that it was the first Highlander female in a video game. And then everything was just like so incredibly sexist. I was excited that I wasn't Mike: We're also viewing it, with the lens of 2021 at this point. At that time, [01:00:00] that was before they had relaunched Tomb Raider, in 2013, 2014, where they made her much more realistic. She was still very fit, but she wasn't the Lara Croft that had generated a lot of criticism. I think possibly, I don't know, but I hope that it would have been marketed a bit differently if it had been done today. That said we also don't know exactly what it would look like as a final product. Jessika: Oh absolutely, yeah. Mike: It’s, I agree. It's a little bit problematic viewed through the current lens. At the same time, like a lot of the Highlander properties when it was being done, I think it was kind of just par for the course. Jessika: Yeah, fair enough. But, I did like the idea of having a female Highlander and having her have a whole story regardless of whether it's the first one to be completely [01:01:00] tragedy laden which was the other comment like her experience a ton of loss because she's female and experiences empathy unlike the male characters. Mike: I really didn't like that. Actually. I thought that was. I mean the, the whole thing where they were saying we wanted to focus on lifetimes of tragedy as opposed to enjoying multiple lives. And I'm like, that's the whole purpose of Highlander. That's what I really like is when you sit there and you watch them having fun and doing all this interesting stuff. Jessika: Women aren't allowed to have fun, Mike. Mike: Apparently. Jessika: We just have to have lives full of tragedy and pining for people that we've lost in our lives. Mike: Well, yeah. And we all know that the dudes don't have feelings, so we just, you know, go on and enjoy things. Jessika: That does suck that Hugh they don't give men the ability to have that capacity or give them the the credit to have that capacity. Mike: I will say, I am sorry that this one didn't get further along the development [01:02:00] stages, because it certainly seemed like it had a lot more promise than the title that was canceled right before it. Jessika: Yes, the gameplay itself looked more interesting, it looks more complex, it easier to navigate. What they were showing us was really intense. Mike: I really liked that whole idea of being able to view the environments in two different eras. It reminded me a lot of another Eidos game called legacy of Cain soul river, where there was a spiritual world and then a physical world. And you could flip back and forth between them, which was kind of cool. Jessika: Oh, that’s neat Mike: Yeah. I dug that. I liked the idea of exploring the same environment in two different areas. I thought that was really neat. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: Let's move on to Comics. Jessika: Sounds great. Mike: Okay, so, I’m curious. When do you think that Highlander got big enough to get a comic book? Jessika: I don't know maybe late nineties Mike: 2006. Jessika: Wow [01:03:00] That's later than I had expected. Mike: Yeah. There wasn't a comic adaptation of the movie when it came out, which is weird, there wasn't one here in the States. Highlander Heart, in their YouTube podcast, noted there was a series of five newspaper comic strips that were published as part marketing promotion. The hosts weren't entirely certain if they're exclusive to Europe or not. I don't know. I haven't been able to really find much reference to it. After the movie came out, though there was a two-part comic adaptation in Argentina. It was published through El Tony Todo Color and El Tony Supercolor they were sibling comic anthology magazines, and here's the weird twist. It looks like this was an unlicensed adaptation. Jessika: Mmhm, interesting. Mike: So now we're going to take another side tangent. The important thing that you need to know is that Argentina had just come out of a brutal military dictatorship that came about as part of Operation Condor, which is this horrific program the United States was involved in. And it isn't really taught about in high school history, at least it [01:04:00] wasn't when I was going through high school and I went to a pretty good one. did you ever learn about that? I'm curious. Jessika: No, I did not. Mike: Okay I'm giving you an extremely TLDR read of this, but basically this was a program in the seventies and eighties when the US backed military dictatorships across South America. So our country helped these groups, kidnap, torture, rape murder, thousands of political opponents, like Argentina was especially brutal. There were literally death squads, hunting down political distance across the country. It was a really horrific time. I want you to read this summary of what was going on during that time, actually. Jessika: Give me the really fun stuff I see. Mike: Sorry. Jessika: No you're good. It is estimated that between - 9,000 and 30,000 that's a huge span. Mike: I know, it’s such a margin of error I don't understand. Jessika: Lack of record taking will get you there quick, I think. I'm going to start over, but we’ll leave that in. It is estimated that between [01:05:00] 9,000 and 30,000 people were killed or disappeared, many of whom were impossible to formally report due to the nature of state terrorism. The primary target, like in many other South American countries participating in Operation Condor, were communist guerrillas and sympathizers, but the target of Operation Condor also included students, militants trade, unionists, writers, journalists, I don't love this, artists, and any other citizens suspected of being left-wing activists - well take me the goddamn way away. Mike: Right. Jessika: Including Peronist guerillas. I don't love that. Mike: No it's really awful. And based on that list of targets, it's not surprising that there was a lot of media suppression during this time. Democracy returned to the country in ’83, and there was this explosion of art across the mediums. Argentine Comics [01:06:00] saw this Renaissance period. A lot of them though, weren't really licensed and let's be honest. It's not like there's an internet where IP owners could monitor stuff like this and shut it down when they learned about it. There was also this drastic comics increase in the area due to create or publishing Zines because the eighties was the decade where personal computers suddenly became commonplace and all of a sudden pe

"March" Movie Madness part 3 (of 3)! For our final Justice League movie discussion, we go outside the DCEU and discuss two movies dealing with Wonder Woman's origins in very different ways.  Professor Marston and the Wonder Women tells the story of Wonder Woman's creation and also looks at the unconventional lives of her creators. Meanwhile, the 2009 animated film provides a more modern take with an all-star vocal cast.  Join us as we go down the rabbit hole that is Wonder Woman's history and discuss kink, polyamory, and BDSM. And -per usual- we swear a lot, too. Have questions/comments/concerns? Hit us up: tencenttakes@gmail.com ----more----   Jessika: I hope you realize what extremely heavy California accents we have. I hope you understand when the feedback comes in, that will be part of it! Hello and welcome to Ten Cent Takes, the podcast where we correct your comic misconceptions. One issue at a time. My name is Jessika Frazier and I am joined by my cohost, the royal robot, Mike Thompson. Mike: That's right. All my circuits are platinum or I don't know. Gold, gold plated, something. Jessika: Oh, gold plated. You've got like diamond and crusted things. They also serve a purpose being one of the sharpest items or Mike: Yeah I it. Thank you for that intro. Jessika: Of course. Well, the purpose of this podcast is to study comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to look at their coolest, weirdest and silliest moments, as well as examine how they're woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. Now, today we're discussing the final installment of our "March" movie madness. Now I'm throwing heavy quotes around March movie madness because it is actually April. Mike: It's almost tax day at this point. Jessika: It's almost tax day. So we bled out a little bit, but we're trying to do these bi-weekly we got a little ahead of ourselves because we got so excited just to be talking about these things that we did a few more than we really anticipated in March, I would say to our listeners benefit. Mike: Yeah, sure. I concur. Jessika: So we are doing a deep dive into Wonder Woman's origins today. Now I'm not just talking about the origins of the character, but also of their creator and the reasons and motivations that drove this comic into existence. I'm excited about this. Mike: I am too. These movies were really pleasant surprises for different reasons. Jessika: I will agree with that wholeheartedly. Now, before we get into that, though. We love to do that whole one cool thing you've read or watched lately. And Mike, let's go ahead and start with you. Mike: Yeah. So I've been consuming a lot of Star Trek lately. I really enjoy the franchise in general, but I have this deep abiding passion for Deep Space Nine because my great uncle who was essentially my grandfather when I was growing up , we used to watch the show together every Sunday when we would go over to their house for dinner. So like, that was just this wonderful bonding activity with this guy who used to be a dive bomber in World War II and his very nerdy little 11-year-old nephew. I have these very treasured memories and I have the entire series on DVD of Deep Space Nine, which I will be buried with by the way. But both the entire series and the recent documentary about the show is on Amazon Prime. So I've been rewatching all of that, and I've been actually rereading some of the comics and then last week Star Trek Legends came out on a Apple Arcade and... it's fine. It's nothing special, but it's a fun distraction if you're a Trekkie who wants to just mash it up all the various characters from the different series together. So I currently have a away team with characters from the Next Generation and then Discovery and then the original series all together. And it's dumb, but it's fun. But this has led me down this rabbit hole, and I think that we should probably wind up doing an episode on Star Trek history in comics and how it actually helped shape the MCU as we know it. Jessika: I would love that. That sounds like so much fun. And I love Star Trek as well. I used to watch Star Trek with my dad. We were a Next Gen family. So I, you know, next gen and Riker jumping over chairs is like near and dear to my heart. Mike: I'm really bummed that that is not an animation and Star Trek Legends. It really makes me so grumpy. Jessika: What a miss. Such a missed opportunity Mike: What about you? What have you been reading or watching lately? Jessika: So I've been casually reading through a reprint of Giant-Size X-Men from 1975, and I say casually just kind of every once in a while I'll pick it up and I'll read through a few pages and be like, "Oh that was fun." And kind of put it back down again between whatever I'm doing. So of course you know they're they're retro comics and you know things are going to... it's me: Things are going to rub me the wrong way about some of the retro comics. Mike: A comic that's almost 40 years old possibly having some problematic elements to it? Go on. Jessika: Yeah no I try to set aside a lot of that but it is quite difficult with my very outspoken mind of mine. But one scene that really bothered me was from Storm's introduction. Professor X seeks out Storm in her native Kenya where she's legitimately saving the countryside by using her weather powers to get rid of drought. Mike: Right Jessika: But Professor X has the audacity to show up and say, "nah listen: Like I know you're helping quote unquote helping people here but I also need your help. And I'm much more important, let's be real. It's just a whole bag of yikes. Mike: Yeah I mean what year did giant size X-Men come out? Was that 75? Jessika: It was 75. Mhm. Mike: Yeah... That was the same year that we got Lois Lane turning black for a literal white savior piece of journalism. Racial sensitivity was not really a thing back then Jessika: Yeah, absolutely. And I and I do try to put myself into that mindset It's just so cringey though in this day and age to see things like that Mike: Yeah. Jessika: What I do like about it that everybody is so salty to one another. Like so salty. They're so sassy to one another. Every other page has just a roast battle between the members of the X-Men where they're like "yeah, One Eye" like Mike: I think I read a reprint of that when I was like 12 or 13 but I haven't re-read it at all recently. So I'll have to go back and check that out Jessika: I'll throw it your way. You can borrow it. It's fun. Well let's get into the meat of our episode and this was definitely a meaty topic. And I know I told you a little bit earlier I love me a good rabbit hole. Love jumping just right into them right off the top I read –more like I listened to but I mean it was a lot of time spent– three different audio books on the topic. Mike: Yeah no that's awesome I'm so excited to hear about all of Jessika: this. And the hard part then was whittling down what information I really wanted to give you. I highly recommend all of these resources and I really want to just throw them out at the top We will also throw them into the show notes. But I highly recommend -if you're interested in this topic- go read more about this because I'm not even touching the surface of these books. They are amazing. So the first one that I read was it was actually an article from smithsonian.com titled "the surprising origin story of Wonder Woman" by Jill LePore which led me to Jill LePore's larger book or I would say more extended book called The Secret History of Wonder Woman. It was also read by the author, so if you're a book on tape person, highly recommend listening to it. She's one of those people who really keeps your attention and she doesn't have that kind of drowsy lilt that some people do while they're reading, So I definitely I was able to stay really focused on it. And the last one was Wonder Woman Psychology by Trina Robbins and that had a couple of different narrators but that one was also very interesting and talked about all of the different aspects of the time and the different parts of psychology and gets more into because you know spoiler alert the author was a psychologist It does get deeper into that whole aspect of the reasons behind the comic in that way. Mike: That's a really cool and I'm really excited to hear everything that you learned because this is a topic that I had a vague awareness of but I have tried to stay as in the dark as possible for this episode because I'm really excited to learn from you about this Jessika: Let's all go on a learning journey together, Folks. What do you say. Mike: Yeah. Hop on the magic school bus kids. Jessika: Here we go. Mike: We're going to hang out with Goth Miss Frizzle. Jessika: Oh my gosh I know I'm wearing all black today and I have high bun. Very McGonigal right now. Mr Porter Um so Diana Prince is the secret identity of Wonder Woman but did you know that the creator of Wonder Woman had a secret identity himself? Well, today we're going to be discussing the creator of Wonder Woman, Charles Milton... or should I say William Moulton Marston. Marston's name, like his stories, were an amalgamation of fact and fiction his middle name mixed with that If max gains one of the co-founders of All-Star Comics and later DC, which stands for Detective Comics -fun fact: I didn't know that- where Wonder Woman made her debut. But Marston was hiding more than just a name. He had an entire life that he kept hidden from the world. William Moulton Marston was born in Massachusetts in May of 1893 to Frederick William Marston and Annie Marston. They bestowed upon him his mother's maiden name molten as a middle name, and as I've mentioned the last name he later uses as his nom du plume. By all accounts he seemed to have a easy childhood though I did hear reports that he was in the military for a stint I should say acting as a psychologist... I believe that was after his Harvard education, though He was accepted to Harvard for his advanced education and he eventually graduated and became a professor of psychology. While attending Harvard, Marston had many interests. One of them being the intelligent and motivated Elizabeth Holloway, whom he would later marry and who had been taking courses in one of the lesser quote unquote lesser universities that you know allowed women at that time. Mike: That was pretty standard at the time, right? Higher education for women was a new thing that was very looked down upon? Jessika: Oh it was incredibly new. This was the early 1900s. We're talking before 1910. That area. Women didn't have the right to vote yet which we definitely will get into. Didn't have the right to vote until 1920. That was a good few years before that point So the schools had the male schools would have a sister school basically or a lesser school . And for Harvard that was Radcliffe, which is where Holloway went And this was considered again the sister school But of course didn't have the same name and you didn't get the same degree .You still graduated from Radcliffe and women really didn't have the option to go down that actual Harvard route, which of course didn't give them an edge at all No edge Thanks a lot. Mike: Yeah what did you use a degree for back then? Jessika: I mean, nothing. What are you going to do with this degree in your home, in the kitchen? The oven doesn't need you to have a degree. It's just so gross. Mike: It's not a masters in baking roasts, Linda Jessika: And how they wished it were. You would think. Harvard acted like that. It was rough. She did however finish her education and become an lawyer with her degree being issued from Radcliffe despite petitioning multiple times to get a Harvard degree, since she was taking the same classes, they were the same classes. Mike: With the same professors, too, right? Jessika: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The class just had women in it instead of men That was the only difference. During college she and Marston were inseparable. One of the biographies I read stated that there was this rule that a woman could not walk or ride unaccompanied with a man However Holloway thought that was a completely stupid rule and just didn't follow it, which I love. She's like, "fuck that." Mike: That's so good. Jessika: And everything else I read about her said "fuck the rules, I do what I want." Which is so amazing for a woman in the early 1900s. I mean it's kind of an interesting concept right now let alone the 1900s. Mike: Yeah... we still have all of these societal norms that women are not supposed to go against. Jessika: Yeah. So Marston varied interests also included a search for "the truth." Quote unquote the truth. This was partially inspire Now part of what he invented I should say was inspired by an observation by Holloway that when she got mad or excited her blood pressure seemed to climb. And from that Marston created the earliest version of what we now know as the lie detector test or polygraph. The test is we know it now measures more than just blood pressure which was really the only thing he was checking on. Blood pressure in and of itself isn't going to tell you everything that you quote unquote need to know for a lie detector to be effective. That being said it's also mostly an admissible as we know it now in the US court of laws depending on the place and both parties have to agree to have it be accepted into the court case which I found I didn't know that. Yeah! Mike: I knew that growing up lie detector tests were considered to be kind of this infallible thing. And then it was like well you know you can sort of get around it by all these old wives tales of like you know you put a tack in your shoe and you press your toe against it and the pain messes up the results. And then later on I found out that they're not really great, they're not really admissible anymore but I didn't know that because I know that a lot of law enforcement still loves to rely on it. Jessika: Yeah and I think about the if you think about when you're nervous you can have a lot of different reasons for being nervous. Not because you're lying, necessarily. You could be a bad test taker and then you suddenly look like a guilty party It could be as that. Mike: I'm just thinking about all the times that I had to give public speeches. Either class presentations or later on when I was a journalist and I was moderating panels. Every time my pulse would be through the roof. Jessika: Same. Now can you imagine being somebody who is of an oppressed or a minority population who's being put into a situation where they have people of power who have them in a room and they have control and that is a really scary thing. Mike: Yeah, that sounds like a nightmare scenario. Jessika: I can imagine my heart rate going up in that situation, so having that be the measure doesn't seem like the best of ideas In my opinion. That being said, it does seem to be admissible in the court of Steve Wilkos and other daytime television shows. Mike, tell me the truth: Do you or have you ever watched those daytime shows like Maury or Jerry Springer or Steve Wilkos? Mike: Yeah, so... Not only did I watch Maury during the daytime when I was just working on stuff at school and I wanted something on in the background, but I was a staff photographer for a newspaper during a celebrity golf tournament and Maury Povich was one of the celebrity golfers. He was really nice I wound up chatting with him for a minute while he was waiting for his turn at golf. I really feel like I missed an opportunity to have him record saying that I was not the father because that was the big thing that he was doing back then was all those paternity tests. Jessika: You say that like he's not still doing that. Mike: I don't know, does he still have show? I don't have TV anymore Jessika: I think so. You know, I really just catch clips. What I'll do is if I'm working and I have to be paying attention to my work -or if I if it's not something mindless like entering data or something- I like to listen to podcasts if I can actually pay attention but if I can't I'll just put on -and I don't watch it but I'll just- put on rotating clips through Facebook or something just go through Facebook watch and just whatever comes up next comes up. And every once in a while we'll get one of those Steve Wilkos and I hear "STEEEEVE" and I'm like, "Oh here we go." And it's always it's always a lie detector test, still to this day. Mike: Was Steve the guy who got his own show sprung off of like spun off of Jerry Springer? Jessika: "sprung off Springer." Correct. Yes. Mike: My roommate and I in college loved to watch Jerry Springer at night because it was the trashiest shit and we not stop. It was like a train wreck, you couldn't look away. Which I think was generally the appeal of Jerry Springer. But it's hard to resolve that because every interview I've seen with the guy he seems like a really pleasant down to earth human being. And then I'm like but you put the trashiest shit on television and it is demonstrable the effect that you had on daytime talk shows for a long time and still to this day in certain ways but for a while everybody was aping that. Anyway, this was a tangent. Jessika: That's okay It was exactly the tangent I wanted. Mike: Maury seemed like a lovely person for all two minutes that I interacted with him, and I hope that Jerry Springer is the person that he seems to be during interviews. Jessika: Same. Well, speaking of life drama, Marston had plenty. Mike: Oh, do tell. Jessika: Yeah. He was already married to his wife the aforementioned Elizabeth -who for consistency I'm going to continue calling Holloway though she did take his name when they got married. Marston, working as a professor at Tufts which is another university, fell in love with one of his students, Olive Byrne, in 1925 and advised his wife that Byrne could either move in or Marston was leaving. Mike: Oh. Jessika: Yeah. That was what the history said So we'll talk through the movie later Mike: Yeah, 'cuz my only familiarity with this so far is what I saw in the movie. *uggggh* Jessika: That was my reaction I now I did my research prior to watching the movie for this exact reason. So I watched the movie last night. It's super fresh. Mike: Yeah I watched it yesterday afternoon and then I watched the other one which we'll get into so it was the origins of Wonder Woman and then Wonder Woman a little bit more modern incarnation. Jessika: Perfect. Yeah. Byrne interestingly enough was the niece of Margaret Sanger. Have you heard that name before Mike: Yeah. She was like one of the early women's rights crusaders. Jessika: Yeah Yup Yup She was a renowned women's rights and birth control activist along with her sister Ethel Byrne opened the first birth control clinic in the United States which is so cool Mike: Yeah, that's awesome. Jessika: Both however were arrested for the illegal distribution of contraception and Ethel Byrne almost died during a hunger strike while she was in jail. Mike: I remember reading about that like in one of my one of my history classes. I mean, that checks out. Jessika: It was bad news bears. So I didn't write this down but I'm just remembering but I did read or listened to sources that said that multiple women were arrested and went on hunger strike and they were forced feeding them It was just it was bad news. The whole thing was just bad. So this obviously was during a time when women were still fighting for the right to vote as I'd mentioned earlier. And the idea of feminism was just a twinkle of a notion. So Byrne Holloway and Marston all three lived together for years as a throuple. Super interestingly they made up a backstory for all of as a widowed relative and both Holloway and Byrne were raising Marston's children. Byrne's Children were always told that their father had passed away and did not find out about the truth of their father's identity until after his death. Mike: Wow. So he fathered children with both women, correct? Jessika: He did. Yeah He fathered I believe two with Byrne and three with Holloway. They all live together in a house and again they managed to keep it secret enough that even their children didn't know. In the same house It's so wild to me Like how you and Mike: Insane to me. Jessika: You fathered children with this woman and they didn't know. No one knew. I can't fathom that honestly. Especially in a time when everybody was up at everybody else's business. Mike: Oh yeah. It's not like we had Netflix. You needed to do invent your own drama. Jessika: You look out Mike: the window. Before Marston died because he died fairly young as I remember it. So that was the whole thing in the movie is that they got out as being in a throuple to their neighbors. Nothing? Jessika: Never happened. They didn't get in trouble at the school. They didn't get in trouble with the neighbors. None of that. It was seamless. Mike: That actually makes me really happy. Jessika: Me too Mike: I love the idea of it sounds like a relatively healthy family. Jessika: I Mike: don't know. Maybe? Jessika: Y'know from what I was hearing because we're still in 1910 we're still in the 1920s I guess at this point it's still is like Marston is Papa Marston he's still man of the house. So I don't know especially when you're looking at this whole -how it was phrased and this is just a couple of sources- but just as far as how it's phrased in this I don't know that Holloway really had a choice other than "well I could be stuck here with" I don't know if she had children at that point "I could maybe be stuck as a single mother in the 1920s or I could allow this other woman to come into my house" but what's great about that is Byrne was able to just stay home and raise the kids. So Holloway was still able to go out and have a career. Yeah She still went out and had a career And so that's where it's I have a hard time saying definitively black and white Marston was a feminist as we would call him now. Probably not. But he definitely had the leanings of that. And he definitely was far advanced for his time Mike: sure I can only imagine. Was he still teaching during this time or was he doing something else? Jessika: He did so many things. He did so many things and I'll actually get into that a little bit further. But it was such a it did seem like a good situation for everyone. Marston had multiple professional interests And Marston believed not only in equality for women, but even further he believed that society should be matriarchal... which is where he goes a little bit more like a Ooh he just kind of swings off you know Cause he's like, "no no no no we should go in the exact 180. There's no middle ground here Women should rule society." Sure right now we live with men. Let's flip it over on its head and see how it goes I guess? But would settle for equality. Mike: Speaking as a mediocre white dude I'm totally fine with this plan. Jessika: Great Let's put it into effect. Who could I call? Papa Joe? I'll bring Mike: it up at the next meeting at the next mediocre white dude club meeting Jessika: I knew you guys had meetings. The gays definitely have meetings Well yeah You know you know you know I'm like well like I'm excluding you from the LGBT community That's rude of me and my Mike: apologies. The rest of them already do already. It's fine. Jessika: To Touché. We did have that conversation earlier. Biphobia. It's a real problem Mike: Yeah It's fun. Jessika: Yeah we were talking about Marston and his wild matriarchal ideas. And his idea was that women were more thoughtful empathetic and level headed when making decisions and would be better suited to positions of leadership. And Marston is quoted as saying -and if you want us to read this quote for me: Mike: okay! " Frankly Wonder Woman is a psychological propaganda for the new type of woman who, I believe, should rule the world." Jessika: So you can kind of see where he was going with that. Obviously she's powerful, she's more powerful than most of the men that she comes across. And he really was trying to flip that on its head with this character. Mike: Yeah. There was nothing like her before that Jessika: No. Absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing. However Marston's entry into the entertainment business didn't start with feminine power of Wonder Woman but instead with the film industry and again this is early film we're talking. He was in the silent film era and then moved talkies. Mike: Golden Age. Jessika: The Golden Age. And there he wrote screenplays and later acted as the consulting psychologist for universal pictures which I didn't even know That was a thing Having a consulting psychologist makes a lot of sense Mike: Yeah it does I just had no idea that was even a role that existed back then. Jessika: Yeah I know. And back then even I know. And at this point he'd already been published, having written dozens of magazine articles and a novel about his opinions Let's just call them or his findings about psychology at the time. And it is called a novel So just keep that in mind. It's called "Emotions of People" I believe. And they do mention it briefly in the film I didn't read it. I'm sure I could jump around and do I just didn't want to get into 1920s garbage which to He was then asked in 1941 to be the consulting psychologist for DC by Maxwell Charles Gaines who was more or less the creator of comics as we know them. At the time Gaines was under fire for content that folks deemed at the time to be risque. So he hired Marston to take off some of the heat by approving the content that was going out. With Marston on the team the largest complaints that they received was the aggressive masculinity that seemed to be the theme of all of the comic books. Yeah I know. You would think that we live in this society that values men so much you would think that we'd be able to just carry on with that you one form. Mike: Yeah Especially during that era which was right when we were getting into World War II and we were going hard for those traditional masculine values Jessika: Yup we want strong men who can go out there and die, I mean fight, for us. Yes. Marston suggested that the best way to counter that idea with the critics was to create a female superhero. Now Gaines accepted the idea but told Marston he had to write the strip himself. So he did. And with the help of illustrator Harry G Peter, Wonder Woman was in essence born. She was fierce, she was strong, she had a lasso that was that made others obey. It wasn't a truth thing that we now know it as the lasso of truth It was an obedient situation. Everybody who was lassoed had to obey her. So it was more of a dominance situation, which we will absolutely get to. And it makes a little bit more sense. Although there again with his lie detector the truth also makes sense. Either way, it tracks but it was obedience. Mike: Yeah you don't say. Jessika: One of her most important qualities was that she didn't kill. That was her empathy. That was that piece of her that was more feminine than some of those other comic book characters, those typical comic book characters Mike: Yeah. Even in the early days I know Batman killed people originally. He was like a goon and I think Superman did too in his early run. I think, can't remember for sure. Jessika: I believe so And then they when they got the comics code? When it was stricter with the comics code that's when they kind of moved into less actual killing from what I was reading I believe. Mike: You know I don't know for certain but it may have been before that because they were just they're such popular characters for kids. But I'm not entirely certain but I know that the early appearances are pretty brutal. I remember Batman hanging a dude from his plane. Jessika: Well I mean Superman came out in 1939 so yeah it's early. I'm going to send you a picture Mike: Okay. Jessika: And so this is the first introduction to Wonder Woman which was seen on the cover of sensation comics Will you please describe the cover? Mike: Yeah .So it is Sensation Comics Number One, the best of the DC magazines. You see Wonder Woman I'm not sure if the sun is really enlarged or if she is just jumping in front of something that's yellow to kind of add a little color to it but she is being shot at by a bunch of what appear to be mobsters somewhere in Washington DC because the capital is there and... is that is that the Lincoln Memorial? I can't tell what other building is that has the flag. Jessika: Apparently they're right across the street from each other. Not real life. This is scale. Mike: It looks like a vaguely government building I can't tell. Jessika: Yeah supposed to be something like that Mike: But it says "featuring the sensational new adventure strip character Wonder Woman!" You got to get that exclamation point in. She's kind of jacked like even back then which I kind of love. She is wearing a truly unflattering pair of boots that are only going up to mid calf as opposed to what we know now where they're just above the knee and armored and bad-ass. But it's the outfit that actually she's still sort of rocking the day where she's got the kind of red bustier with the gold eagle on it and then she's got the bulletproof bracelets and then she's got what I can only describe it as the bottom part of a sun dress kind of skirt where it's like very flowy? As opposed to that that gladiatorial skirt that she has now. But it's very identifiably Wonder Woman. Jessika: Yeah. And it goes back and forth between this was her first debut but it wasn't her first issue. first issue she was wearing more of what people were calling underpants of this same pattern. And that's what more used to. Yeah We're used to those like little booty shorts that she's rocking. So, right off the bat: Mike if you were a critic, in 1942 what would your main complaint about this be? Just based on the cover? Mike: I don't know. They were really concerned about the violence that was being marketed towards kids so probably the gunfire. Probably the fact that she was showing too much skin. Jessika: it. She wasn't clothed enough .Oh, they didn't care about the gunfire. That was not what was that was not the problem. Gasp. The drama was that Wonder Woman was wearing far too few clothes for Puritan America. Mike: Jesus Christ. And that's actually super tame Jessika: It's really tame. When you think about other superheroes that we have nowadays especially: You've got these massive boobs that are up to her neck and this little waist and like wearing a thong. But this is so covered Mike: Yeah. A lot of modern comics have these very almost suggestive poses. Do you remember when the Avengers came out and and all of the dudes had very action-oriented poses and then Black Widow was turned so that we could see her butt? She had Jessika: her like her arm up so that you could see her boob line. Mike: Yeah. And it's a really action oriented pose and it's very matter of fact there is nothing sexualized about that, kinda love. Jessika: Marston made it a point for her to be doing action and for her to be doing sports and for her to be doing things that were very active because women weren't given that as a role. So he really wanted to present that as another facet of, "Hey, this can also be feminine. Yeah I thought so, too. And while a slight costume adjustment seemed easy enough to deal with some critics also had qualms with other aspects of the comic. Namely, the depiction of women especially our heroine being tied or chained up or left in other positions of containment. Now, Marston's intention behind this seemed to be twofold in my opinion. Part one feminism and part two I also think he was just in kinky motherfucker. Which is great. Like, that's fine no kink shame. But we're going to briefly discuss both. So part one feminism. Marston was a supporter of women's rights, as we said. He was a supporter of the right to vote and the ability to have access to contraceptives. He'd been a supporter of these movements in his own right and was particularly struck by the female suffragettes who would chain themselves to a location in protest. Chains seem to him to be the very image brought to life of how society chains down and stifles women from succeeding. Either chaining them to their family before they're wed, chaining them to their new husband, or chaining them to pregnancies that they either cannot afford or don't want. In each of these portrayals of Wonder Woman being tied down there is always the moment that she's able to break free from her restraints in triumph which is just a perfect metaphor for the modern woman being able to break free from the societal chains that still bind her. And this hope that women will be able to eventually free themselves for good. In everything I've read, you had women suffragettes chaining themselves to places in protest. Same thing with the contraceptive movement. That was a huge metaphor for both of those movements, so it would make sense that if you are portraying a feminist during that era that that might be a theme. And I think people who maybe didn't support or were unfamiliar with the movements might have something to say negatively against the imagery, especially if they didn't understand Mike: We had a lot of people back then who were really pushing for propriety and basically you can't let immoral elements affect the children. They always fucking latch on to like "think of the children. Protect the children." Fuck off. Jessika: We still do that shit. This is just like pizza gate all over again. Mike: Yeah Jessika: Pizza gate before pizza gate. Little did they know. But part two: the kink factor. Marston had a whole dominance theory that I think tells a lot more about him than it does to the human experience In general I'm not going to get deep into the theory because we both have lives but it pertains to dominance and submission at the very minimum. Mike: You don't say. Jessika: Yo I know right. Mike: What. Shock. Jessika: At this point it's pretty well established that individuals have different drives and things that excite them. But I think that Marston was looking at the world from a place of, oh I like this So everybody is like this." Which just isn't the case for everybody. Mike: Right. But that's also like a very stereotypical kind of dude attitude. Jessika: Yeah. This is my worldview and so it must be everybody's. Absolutely. Again, he's some Harvard bro. Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Jessika: You're able to just go to Harvard in 1925 like Mike: NBD. I'm Jessika: gonna Mike: to be living near there soon. Oh God. I'm going to Jessika: be visiting you soon. I've got the people there. You're fine. We'll get you there. We'll get you there. But my impression is that he assumed that everyone else was a little kinky like him. Also it needs to be stated that again in interviewing Marson's children they never saw toys, ropes, anything that he had mentioned in the comics or that were the things that were being taken as this great offense, they didn't see any of those things. So it was this was also a complete surprise to them nothing related to bondage. Mike: Yeah that's wild man. I just I think about the fact that my partner has stories about how when everyone was out of the house she would just snoop around when she was growing up. And I remember doing that too And kids get into shit. Jessika: We also grew up in the age in the era of the latchkey child, though. My parents would just and not for long periods of time it's not like they would go out of town or something. But they'd leave us and say "don't answer the door. You're not home. Don't answer the phone. We'll call and ring twice and then hang up and then call back If we want to talk to you know whatever there was a code. But there again we lived in a different time even this many years I mean it just we sound like old people every time we have this conversation. Mike: You know someone pointed out that if Back To The Future was taking place today Marty McFly would be going back to like 91. Jessika: Don't do this to me. Mike: We're old, Jess. Jessika: We're Mike: practically Jessika: this Okay Mike. This is going to seem like such a non-sequitur But have you ever had to do a DISC personality assessment for any of your offices jobs? Mike: I don't think so. The name isn't familiar but describe this to me. Jessika: Basically it's like any of those other stupid employee personality tests where they try to like "what part of the team are you? How can we use your strengths?" I'm a supervisor so I've had to go through all this crap. And it's cool. It's a cool concept but it's also like mind numbing if it's not your wheelhouse. Mike: No. So I've never taken anything like this no. Jessika: Okay So yeah you basically answered a bunch of questions about what you would do in a situation. And it's kind of one of those no wrong answers kind of tests. And then they put you into one of four different categories. So I have had to do this before and and other ones like it but I honestly can't remember what I scored and I'm not going to get into a long-winded lecture on the topic either but suffice it to say that part of that is dominance That's the D and part of it is compliance which is the C. Mike: So was this something Marston came up with? Jessika: Yeah. Marston came up with and it's we still use version of this today which is so interesting. So far he's got lie detector, check. We still kind of use it today. Steve Wilkos does. And then now he's got the DISC which I definitely have taken. Now, it doesn't look the same. The categories are not the same as when he first created them. So less kink forward I would say. But you still have those two that are vibing you know. And for those of you are you unfamiliar with the kink scene: Power dynamics in play can sometimes come in the form of having one dominant and one submissive partner. But again not everybody functions in that way. Ultimately, wonder Woman was allowed to continue as she was. Delighting readers even to this day though of course the writing has changed hands multiple times meaning that her true meaning was sometimes lost to those who were in charge of telling her story. For example once Wonder Woman entered the Justice League she was immediately made to be the secretary. And there were many times that she was relegated to staying behind because she just had so much to take care of and "oh little old me couldn't get involved in having lifting" bullshit. God damn. She's so fucking strong. She has powers and Batman doesn't. Why the fuck does he get to go on missions? Why the fuck Isn't Batman the secretary? That's my question. Oh he has money my own his Mike: power that he's rich. Jessika: God damn. Yeah. Thanks for that Ben Affleck. We know. Still like him as Batman. Mike: Yeah. I'll die on that hill he was good. Jessika: Yeah Yeah He was good There was also a point where she lost her powers completely though did gain them back, those were times that Wonder Woman didn't necessarily feel like the fierce warrior she truly is. Mike: Yeah, actually, Brian's comics -our local comic shop- the first time I went in there they had the all-new Wonder Woman issue where it's like this iconic cover where it's her tearing up I think the original version of her and it's like get ready for the all new Wonder Woman I think that's when they de-powered her. I think. I'm not certain I'm really bummed that I didn't pick that up when it was there. Jessika: The idea behind that apparently was supposed to be that would make her more human and relatable but that's not you're just taking away the things that make her a stronger character for people that look up to her. Mike: Yeah I'm sorry. Did you were you able to hear my eyes rolling out of their Jessika: I did actually Yeah no that was a really palpable eye-roll. well Marston passed away at the age of 53 of cancer So very young like you were saying. Yeah. Holloway and Byrne continue living together until they both went into the hospital around the same time in 1990. When Byrne passed away, in a different room in the same hospital at the age of 86. Mike: I Jessika: got teary writing this so I'm probably going to get teary reading it. Upon hearing the news of burns passing Holloway sang a poem by Tennyson in her hospital room. So everything I've read alludes to the idea that Holloway and Byrne were also in a relationship with each other not just the man with all of them that they did have there were women who were kind of rotating in the house. It wasn't just these two there were other women who at different periods of time lived in the house undetected by the way can we just give it up for the Marston Family. Mike: Like. How? Jessika: That's what I'm saying. I don't know, money? And the dude had his little hands in everything so he probably just knew a bunch of people I don't know How do you get away with things as a guy I literally can't even imagine. Mike: This is my friend who's coming over to assist with this thing? The question is were they just coming into visit or were they living there for periods of Jessika: time? They were living there for a parts. Yes I know me too. I know. Okay let's run through: You have a widowed relative. You could be bringing in a nanny. You could be bringing in another person who works in the house et cetera et cetera. You could be bringing in a cousin or another type of relative. I'm sure you could excuse up the yin yang. Mike: Yeah I mean you can come up with excuses but if they're like living with you for any amount of time there are those moments of small intimacies that other people will pick up on. I don't know I mean were the kids just dumb? I don't know like how that requires some serious commitment to acting I feel. Jessika: Yeah. Oh yeah. Mike: So much fucking effort. Jessika: I was just going to say that. Can you imagine? I can't. Mike: No. Jessika: The mental strain alone. Mike: Like I have one partner, I have step-kids, and I have pets and that's like that's kind of the extent of my bandwidth. Jessika: Oh okay So I am non-monogamous or Poly, polyamorous. So I do have multiple partners although I they're what I would consider like secondary partners or partners that I don't I don't live with them, I don't necessarily see them on a super regular basis but I still maintain a relationship with them. And I still consider them partners. To whatever you know effect that is. But it is a lot of work and it's so much communication and you can just tell that Marston had to have been really communicative and that whole family had to have been really communicative. Mike: They must have been. Jessika: Or else how. Mike: At the same time like that era men weren't necessarily expected to be super communicative or show a lot of emotion or be the one to provide nurturing experiences with the kids. So maybe they just didn't get a lot of exposure to the kids and were really just exposed to their mothers and the motherly figures. I mean, this is all completely uninformed speculation so don't take anything that I'm saying with even a grain of salt like this. Jessika: Oh no. Absolutely at any rate Holloway passed away in 1993 at the ripe age of 100. Mike: Oh wow. So there was a little bit Jessika: of an age difference. Around Yeah there was there was yeah. Sounds like about a little bit less than 20 years. About 14 years. But if you think about it she was in college. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: He was her teacher and they were already married. He went to I want to say that he started college like prior to 1910. And they met and she moved into the house in 1925. So that's a good 15. Mike: He would have been about he would have been about 17 and 1910 right? Based on it like he was 1893 he said? Jessika: Yes yes. Yeah. And it sounds like Holloway was born the same year. Mike: Yeah and I got to say the love story between Holloway and Byrne sounds like something straight out of a movie. Which we're about to get into. But we all want to have that partner who is with us till the bitter end and then they sing a poem in our memory. Like goddamn. Jessika: It's just so beautiful. Yeah. They had it when they live together in the house, they had adjoining rooms and this is where it's like how did your kids not know because Marston would sleep in both. How did he like literally how did they not know? No it's wild to me. And then when they were older, byrne and Holloway lived in a little two bedroom place in Tampa together. This cute place apparently. So let's talk about our reactions here. We did also watch Professor Marston and the Wonder Women which I think it's worth a watch in my just off the bat. Mike: Yeah. I really liked it a lot and it was a movie that totally flew under the radar for me when it came out. I was vaguely aware of it but I really did not know much about it before we talked about what movies we wanted to do and March being women's month it seemed like a natural conclusion after the DCEU. Jessika: Yeah. Absolutely. That train wreck. I'm sorry. Mike: I was Jessika: of We did. We did enjoy one of the movies and we enjoyed aspects of of them. I trailed off my brain wouldn't let me do it It's like no that sentence Mike: I mean we kind of enjoyed parts of the Snyder cut Jessika: We did We liked it better Mike: than I don't like we're still Jessika: bitching about the Snyder Cut Mike: Look at Jessika: this Mike: back Jessika: Goddammit. We've literally can't get away from it Zach Snyder, hit us up.. No don't. You're not going to like what you hear I'm going to get to eat It adds Zach Snyder is going to be like Mike: I want the Snyder cut of Professor Marston in the Women which will be just scenes of Luke Evans with the Women in the background and don't do anything else. Jessika: And there's no dialogue in this one at all. It's just it's just heavy looks. Mike: It's just all the scenes from that sorority scene just over and just dark, scenes. Jessika: Definitely talk about that. Oh. What did you think about the film overall. Mike: Like I said, I overall really enjoyed it. I had heard about this movie a little bit. I remember my weightlifting partner at the time was telling me about how she and her wife had gone and enjoyed it and she thought that I would really like it. And I was like, "yeah okay cool." And then it just I didn't get around to seeing it while it was out in it's very limited run in theaters. And then I don't think it ever came to any streaming platform when I was aware of it. I was really surprised by actually how much I did enjoy it. I thought it was a shockingly sweet love story and I was expecting something much more judgmental or scandalous I was really expecting a much more judgy story about the Marstons and Byrne raising an entire family as a throuple. Jessika: was too. Mike: I was wondering if the relationship was ever outed and if they ever did break up like they did in the movie because that felt kind of forced and it felt very Hollywood and I was like "all right, whatever. This is dumb." At the end where they're on their knees submitting to Byrne." Jessika: Spot on That was made up There was none of that. Mike: I still think the most offensive thing about that movie was that they tried to make me think that someone who looked like Luke Evans was responsible for Wonder Woman's creation. I love Luke Evans I think he's really a fun actor and I was really glad to see him in a real role as opposed to I saw Dracula untold in theaters. I saw I'm Oh man I I didn't see Beauty and The Beast in theaters but I've since seen it. He's one of those actors where I feel like he just needs to be given good roles. He's like Kiana Reeves where I feel like he's often typecast and just thrust into stuff that aren't really any good but he was really good in this. That said: I've seen that man shirtless so many times and I don't know a single comic creator with abs like that. On the flip side, I went into this trying to keep myself as unaware a lot of the history of Marston but I do know what he looked like in his forties and that was like a dude in his seventies. Jessika: Did you watch all at the end of the film they had all the pictures. Yeah And you're just like, "oh. Oh." Like because Byrne and Holloway also not looking like who they cast. Not even a little bit, not even at all. Mike: Okay this is mean. But I'm like yes you look like the type of people who would be in a throuple. Jessika: No. Okay, fair enough And especially here's you know what it reminded me of it reminded me of those pictures that I used to see from that era where the Women especially with those two they looked like the type who would dress up as men and go to the clubs. Mike: Absolutely Jessika: I get that. It's just a vibe I get and maybe it's just my gaydar Like my pansexual gaydar is Mike: going But I mean that's the ongoing lie that Hollywood loves to tell us is that truly sexy people are in throuples all the time. No they're fucking not. I'm bI And I was dating here in the Bay area and I would occasionally get hit on by people looking for a third and they never looked like that. Jessika: And in my experience and opinion if you go at it with the wrong attitude you're not necessarily going to get what you want out of it. And it's not going to be a genuine feeling relationship. Mike: Which I mean like that's relationships in general. Like Yeah I feel like a huge thing of any successful relationship is communications. Stay tuned listeners for our next podcast about relationships and relationship advice And I don't know I don't know where I was going with that. Jessika: Oh I was like we have a new podcast. We're four episodes into this podcast and Mike's like folks we have a new podcast. You know what I like I like your gusto. I like a motivated you Mike: I did have two quibbles about the movie. Getting back on topic. First we earlier mentioned there was no acknowledgement about the problematic nature of how Marston and Byrne's relationship began. Where he was her professor and she was his student. The movie was very fuzzy with time it was very fluid that way. So it wasn't really explained if she was still his student when the relationship began or if she was his research assistant but there was that power imbalance and their dynamic and that was deeply uncomfortable for me because it wasn't addressed. They just kinda hand waved it away. Fine. Whatever. For the movie, fine. Jessika: same way about that. Yeah It just it's gross and to your point there is a power dynamic that I was thinking about. If you are trying to please somebody who has some sort of control over you, whatever that looks like, if it's somebody who has your grades or your future career or your education or even your job... you know this could be at a job setting. If that person has power over you you're less inclined to say "no" to them. And that automatically puts you at a disadvantage. Mike: It was something that I noticed and I was a little frustrated that it wasn't addressed better. The second was that it didn't feel like we actually got enough time with Wonder Woman. The comics and the character felt more like a framing device but a framing device that we didn't really get a lot of payoff on, considering the title of the movie. I thought the scenes where he was actually in the comic office and there was a bit where they're like "Oh well, they're upset about the bondage. And they're like I feel like there's twice as much. And then he just is like I put in three times as much and he keeps walking. And and Oliver Platt was so great and I wanted more of him. For a movie that has Wonder Woman or Wonder Women in the title I just I wanted a little bit more time and acknowledgement. It felt like much more attention was paid just to their relationship with like the first two thirds of the movie. And then he goes with hat in hand to Oliver Platt's character at... was it all-star Comics? Was Jessika: that it? Mike: Yeah. I mix up all the publishers because they've all merged and come together at various. So yeah he It just it it was And especially cause you were like no he got hired to like do this to get them out of hot water now I'm like that makes much more sense. Jessika: Yeah He Mike: Considering the importance that we're led to believe that Wonder Woman will be to his story, I mean she's there. Like they do a number of things where they keep teasing us with Wonder Woman but we never really get that payoff. What about you like Jessika: I did my research on the topic prior to watching the film. So this will be mostly on what the film did or didn't do correctly kind of history with my own opinion of course sprinkled in as you'd expect from So to your point most of the drama seems to have been fabricated There's no indication that any issues with Radcliffe, like trying to boot him for indecency or with the neighbors regarding their relationship, and again even their children didn't know until after Marston's passing about their relationship. And I didn't read anything about them having split up at any point. And again I think that was just added for a forceful Hollywood dramatics play, since we're on the topic of dominance. And there again Marston was already working for Gaines when he created the idea of Wonder Woman and it was in direct relation to the voice of the critics. So he was answering the critics here. So it didn't necessarily seem like as big of a you did this thing and now we're going to make you pay. It was like well okay Right. The sections with Connie Britton -love her by the way, want more in my life just in general- and their back and forth minus all the people drama was actually pretty accurate as far as capturing the concerns of the day and what was being argued in the lobby against Wonder Woman. And then also pretty accurate in what his counterpoints were in relation to the to the comic itself. Mike: Yeah And I thought that was a smart choice to kind of make her the voice of the critics. Jessika: Yeah. That being said his relationship didn't come up at any point in this again because nobody knew about it until after the fact. So it's not like she would have been like what about those things you were indecent. Well, no that that didn't happen. That was all for dramatics. Overall I really liked it. So, again, me as a pansexual: love a good queer film and also being polyamorous or non-monogamous it was so nice seeing that to your point represented so positively, and without judgment. That was so surprising to me I really thought that there was going to be some sort of aspect from the point of view of the viewer to not want them to succeed. But the whole time you really do you're rooting for them. Mike: If you're a fan of history in comic books I think this is a great movie to go check out. My final thought is that reminded me a lot of Kinsey. Did you ever see that? It had Liam Neeson and Laura Linney in it and it's all about Kinsey, the guy created the Kinsey scale of sexuality. Jessika: Oh okay I'll have to check it out Mike: It's great. This kind of reminded me the same way where it's mostly true. It's not quite all there because they have to tszuj it up for the audiences. Jessika: Yeah, yeah. Well, let's move on to our other film that we watched which was Wonder Woman from 2009. And that was the animated origin story of Wonder Woman Do you want to give an overview of the film for us? Mike: Yeah, sure. This is one of the original DC Universe Animated Original Movies which were at the time this came out in 2009 they were still in their infancy. They'd only done three before. This one is loosely based on George Perez's acclaimed 1980s storyline called "Gods and Monsters" and it's written by Gail Simone and Michael Jelenic. Gail Simone has gotten her own amount of acclaim for writing Wonder Woman as well. The film introduces us to the Amazons who win a war against Ares and then they're granted the Island of Themiscyra and immortality in exchange for acting as Ares' jailer by the gods. Diana is later sculpted from clay and given life by the gods. This is kind of in direct opposition to the current mythos of Zeus being her deadbeat dad and then Diana lives on the Island for thousands of years until pretty much the modern day when two key events happen. Steve Trevor crashes on the Island by happenstance and then Ares stages of jailbreak. And Diana has to take Steve back to the United States and he helps her and request to stop the god of war. Jessika: And actually pretty similar to where they tried to go with the original Wonder Woman. So this was absolutely not a cartoon for children. Mike: Nooooo. Jessika: blood spattered backgrounds, fairly graphic death scenes, and three beheadings three beheadings. We're talking the head flying off and falling dramatically at someone's feet kind of beheading. And that being said I didn't particularly mind the violent nature of the animation as a movie for adults as I feel that it was done in a way that felt true to the battle and the struggle of what was happening in the storyline and it didn't feel overly gross in its depictions or its animations like just enough to give the definite impression that violence was occurring. That makes sense Ares is a super violent guy and he affects everyone around him into violence themself so that it did make sense in that way. So things I liked is that it it seemed to me like a fairly good representation of Wonder Woman's origin story as it was originally told by Marston based on what I was reading. Mike: Yeah it it felt like a very classic take on Wonder Woman's origin. And it was very familiar to someone who grew up nominally aware of her origins and reading her mini comics with her action figure and stuff like that. Jessika: One main difference was that the movie was set in seemingly present day America. Since at one point Wonder Woman ends up fighting in a mall, the fighter planes that Steve and company were flying looked modern for 2009. Marston's Wonder Woman was originally set in World War Two of course whereas the 2018 live action film with Gal Gadot was set in World War One. So we've just jumped around. Again DC is definitely not consistent. Mike: It's comic books. And DC's own in- comics timeline has been drastically reworked several times just in our lifetime. Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. And this time period change it definitely affects the vibe and political climate of American society at that time in the cartoon we're not presented with a particular war or a reason for fighting we're evidently just supposed to understand that the world of men is in constant battle every moment. Whereas in the original comic and Wonder Woman film Both took place during large global wars where it wouldn't be a far leap to present the god of war as the cause of those events. Mike: Yeah, absolutely. Jessika: Now things I didn't like cause apparently I veered into not liking and then we're continuing down that road. For someone that wasn't raised in a patriarchal society, Diana's internalized misogyny is staggering. At one point she says to Steve, "you're starting to sound like a woman" when he's discussing having feelings for her and later says to Ares, "how can you expect to beat Zeus If you can't even beat a girl." The fuck that? Mike: Which kind of goes against everything else that she does in the movie. Jessika: Yeah it directly against it. Yeah, so that was irritating. And then not only that, the president, because apparently they're in Washington DC, the president is told that they were saved by a group of armored supermodels. Which I had to rewind it and write that line down grossed. Out It's such a condescending and reductive statement to make about individuals that just saved your lives while you apparently slept through the whole situation, Mr President. And it drives home the point that even in heroism, women's worth is still viewed only in her attractiveness. Mike: Yeah there was a lot of that. Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. They also have Diana do quite a bit of killing with absolutely no thought whatsoever which is not in the original character at all. That doesn't feel very Diana. Mike: I mean, no. But at the same time I don't particularly have a problem with it but yeah Jessika: Yeah. So that was me. What about you? Were you at with that? Mike: I think I had a slightly more positive take on the movie. I mean it sounds like you still enjoyed it, right? Jessika: Oh, I liked it. I still liked it. Yeah. Mike: Part of it is just I viewed it at the time when it first came out and this was one of the first animated original movies. And it was the first one that I remember enjoying. So I think that it's definitely tinted my perspective a little bit. Jessika: You had a nostalgia factor that I didn't I hadn't seen it prior. Mike: I remember seeing the reviews for it and I was like, "Oh this looks really cool. The others that were released before that they were all, well two of the three were just straight adaptations of other you know quote unquote iconic stories So there is Superman: Doomsday which was the death and life of Superman and I did not give a shit about that movie. It was really I felt flat. Then there was Justice League: The New Frontier which is based on a really acclaimed mini series. And then there was Batman Gotham Knight which was -if I remember right- it was several different animated shorts and different animated styles. And none of them really did it for me. But the DC Animated Universe, which was helmed by Bruce Timm, so that's like the original Batman animated series from the nineties as well as the Superman series and then Justice League and then Batman Beyond or vice versa and then Justice League Unlimited, those were all incredible. And I knew that eventually we would get to the same point with the animated movies and Wonder Woman felt like that home run that I knew they'd eventually hit. So I really enjoyed the film overall and even watching it yesterday afternoon I had a blast, you know, even a decade later. I think its strongest element is that the movie clearly has zero fucks to give. That battle between the Amazons and Ares is incredibly violent and it's obvious from the first 30 seconds in that this is going to be a RIDE. And it doesn't shy away from some really tough narrative elements like where Hippolyta actually in that battle It's revealed that she kills Thrax, the son of Ares. Thrax is her child who is very heavily implied the product of rape by Jessika: Ares. Mike: Also the vocal cast is just incredible. This was 2009 Keri Russell, Nathan Fillion, Virginia Madsen, Rosario Dawson, Alfred Molina, and then Oliver Platt. They were really well-regarded actors at the time and they're still pretty big and side note Oliver Platt was in both of the movies that we watched for this Jessika: episode. I literally thought of that when you said that. Mike: he fucking steals every scene he's in. He was just this delightful villainous Hades and he's kinda gross but he's also just wonderfully sinister. I really dug that and I also really dug how it felt like a pretty faithful adaptation of the origin while still feeling fresh and fast. Like this movie is not long. That kind of leads into something that I didn't like was that It's a very short movie. It's barely over an hour long. I feel like we needed a director's cut or something because of the lines could have been fleshed out a little bit more like this is something Look Jessika: who wants director's cut now. Mike: Release the Simone cut or something, I don't know. I feel like there were a couple of sub plot lines that were kind of just glossed over. Like I mentioned Thrax is actually Diana's half-brother. I feel like maybe there might've been something more there. Maybe there wasn't, who knows. But it just it felt like something that I would have liked a little more room to breathe. And that's said, it was pretty solid. That said there were some problematic elements. Like Steve was so gross and so cringy Jessika: He kept calling her Angel and I just wanted to punch him in the jaw. Mike: Which, I mean, so that's like a thing from the comics and his other earlier incarnations but this time around it just felt gross. It felt like "babe" and you know blech. Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. He just he rolled in and was like "Oh naked ladies I'm in right place for me." Mike: And the problem is that Nathan Fillion was just too good at making him a sleazebag. Jessika: Which, love Nathan Fillion. Mike: I do too. Like, okay dude, we get it. He's kind of a gross misogynist. We don't need him to hit on Diana for the fifth time in as many minutes. Etta Candy viewing Diana as competition was also dumb. Candy's always been one of her best friends and I still think that her incarnation in the original movie was pitch perfect. And then her being this skinny little supermodel who's trying to flirt with Steve was dumb. You mentioned the other problematic misogynistic elements that I noted. the only other thing, and this wasn't an actual problem, was that I didn't realize how much better Wonder woman's costume is these days rather than the super swimsuit that we had for so long. It's funny because growing up with it, I never thought about it. And then really only in the last five years or so we've gotten a much more a

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Ana: I heard that South Africa is famous for its wild animals.Mike: That's true. We have many different kinds of animals in South Africa. Have you heard of the big five?Ana: I think so but I don't remember what it is.Mike: So the big five are the animals that foreign tourists like to come and see in South Africa. And there are safaris and trips you can go on to wildlife reserves to see these animals.Ana: So what are they?Mike: So would you like to guess?Ana: I guess lions.Mike: Yes, that's one of them.Ana: And elephants.Mike: Yes.Ana: And giraffes.Mike: No. The giraffe is definitely a big animal but it's not one of the big five. The other three are rhinoceros, the – is it the water buffalo, I think. And the final one is – what is the final one?Ana: Is it the cheetah?Mike: Yes, the cheetah. Yes. The cheetah can run very, very fast.Ana: Okay, and have you seen all of these animals?Mike: Let me think. It's been a while since I visited a wildlife reserve but I've seen elephants before. And let's see; I've seen a lion. I don't think I've ever seen a cheetah. I've seen a rhinoceros from far away.Ana: I've heard they're quite dangerous.Mike: I don't think that there are not many of them in the wild. I don't know if there are any in the wild. They're all in wildlife enclosures so that actually I don't think many people are injured or killed by rhinoceroses. But actually, do you know what the most dangerous animal is in Africa?Ana: Is it the lion?Mike: No, it's not. It's the hippopotamus.Ana: Really?Mike: I think they killed more people every year in the world than any other animal.Ana: Wow, that's very surprising.Mike: Maybe mosquitoes kill more with malaria but in terms of big animals, it's definitely the hippopotamus.Ana: Wow.Mike: They have very long teeth as well.Ana: That's scary.Mike: Yeah. It is pretty scary. You don't want to be – you know, they can swim as well. So they would – and if you go out on the river in a little bit on a dam and there's a hippopotamus, he can tip your boat over and bite you in half.Ana: All right. So you should definitely look out for hippos when you go to South Africa.Mike: Yeah. You should be careful. Crocodiles can also be nasty.Ana: Okay.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Ana: I heard that South Africa is famous for its wild animals.Mike: That's true. We have many different kinds of animals in South Africa. Have you heard of the big five?Ana: I think so but I don't remember what it is.Mike: So the big five are the animals that foreign tourists like to come and see in South Africa. And there are safaris and trips you can go on to wildlife reserves to see these animals.Ana: So what are they?Mike: So would you like to guess?Ana: I guess lions.Mike: Yes, that's one of them.Ana: And elephants.Mike: Yes.Ana: And giraffes.Mike: No. The giraffe is definitely a big animal but it's not one of the big five. The other three are rhinoceros, the – is it the water buffalo, I think. And the final one is – what is the final one?Ana: Is it the cheetah?Mike: Yes, the cheetah. Yes. The cheetah can run very, very fast.Ana: Okay, and have you seen all of these animals?Mike: Let me think. It's been a while since I visited a wildlife reserve but I've seen elephants before. And let's see; I've seen a lion. I don't think I've ever seen a cheetah. I've seen a rhinoceros from far away.Ana: I've heard they're quite dangerous.Mike: I don't think that there are not many of them in the wild. I don't know if there are any in the wild. They're all in wildlife enclosures so that actually I don't think many people are injured or killed by rhinoceroses. But actually, do you know what the most dangerous animal is in Africa?Ana: Is it the lion?Mike: No, it's not. It's the hippopotamus.Ana: Really?Mike: I think they killed more people every year in the world than any other animal.Ana: Wow, that's very surprising.Mike: Maybe mosquitoes kill more with malaria but in terms of big animals, it's definitely the hippopotamus.Ana: Wow.Mike: They have very long teeth as well.Ana: That's scary.Mike: Yeah. It is pretty scary. You don't want to be – you know, they can swim as well. So they would – and if you go out on the river in a little bit on a dam and there's a hippopotamus, he can tip your boat over and bite you in half.Ana: All right. So you should definitely look out for hippos when you go to South Africa.Mike: Yeah. You should be careful. Crocodiles can also be nasty.Ana: Okay.

Neil talks about his childhood wish to stop the waves. DJ and academic Mike Dimpfl talks about his research on "toilet feelings." ABOUT THE GUEST Mike Dimpfl is a teacher, academic, costume builder, and DJ. His academic work explores the connection between hygiene, bureaucracy, and institutional racism, particularly in the southern US. Mike’s costumes often focus on the comic and confusing relationship human beings have to their garbage and to the possibility of the divine. When music is his focus, he is especially committed to reckless abandon on the dancefloor. ABOUT THE HOST Neil Goldberg is an artist in NYC who makes work that The New York Times has described as “tender, moving and sad but also deeply funny.” His work is in the permanent collection of MoMA, he’s a Guggenheim Fellow, and teaches at the Yale School of Art. More information at neilgoldberg.com. ABOUT THE TITLE SHE’S A TALKER was the name of Neil’s first video project. “One night in the early 90s I was combing my roommate’s cat and found myself saying the words ‘She’s a talker.’ I wondered how many other gay men in NYC might be doing the exact same thing at that very moment. With that, I set out on a project in which I videotaped over 80 gay men in their living room all over NYC, combing their cats and saying ‘She’s a talker.’” A similar spirit of NYC-centric curiosity and absurdity animates the podcast. CREDITS This series is made possible with generous support from Stillpoint Fund, Western Bridge, and the David Shaw and Beth Kobliner Family Fund Producer: Devon Guinn Creative Consultants: Aaron Dalton, Molly Donahue Mixer: Fraser McCulloch Visuals and Sounds: Joshua Graver Theme Song: Jeff Hiller Website: Itai Almor & Jesse Kimotho Social Media: Lourdes Rohan Digital Strategy: Ziv Steinberg Thanks: Jennifer Callahan, Larry Krone, Tod Lippy, Sue Simon, Jonathan Taylor TRANSCRIPTION NEIL: Mike Dimpfl, welcome to SHE’S A TALKER MIKE: I’m so delighted to be here. NEIL: It’s impossible to imagine you’re as delighted as I am to have you here. Now, can I ask where this recording is finding you? MIKE: Yeah, this recording is finding me, sitting at my dining room table in Durham, North Carolina. It’s a lovely gray, 64 degree day. NEIL: Do you like a gray day? MIKE: I do right now because I have a bit of sort of structural gardening work to complete. And when the summer comes here it becomes so insanely hot that it’s just completely impossible to be outside. We’ve had a really long, cool spring, so the bugs aren’t here yet. NEIL: What is structural gardening work? MIKE: It’s a critique of the, sort of political economy of earlier forms of gardening. We’re remaking our yard and we’ve been doing all of the actual construction work. So not planting plants, but building walls and building fences and moving dirt around and things that. So all the things that are sort of a pain in the ass and give my sort of inner type A control freak a lot of pleasure, but don’t actually produce anything you would say is recognizably a garden. It’s a lot of getting your hands cut by all of the pieces of broken glass that are in the soil around your house. NEIL: Oh, how come there’s broken glass inside the soil around your house? MIKE: It’s just an almost a hundred year old house, and I think that over time things break and people throw bottles into the former dump behind the former garage that’s no longer there, and you find them and I’ve probably taken out an entire garbage can, an actual garbage can of broken glass out of the yard. NEIL: Wow, one shard at a time? MIKE: One shard at a time, yes. I’m going to start an Etsy store with all of the other things I found, like yard cured fork and yard cured wrench, they have a nice patina. NEIL: Oh, I bet, people would pay a pretty penny to give you their new wrench to make it look that. MIKE: To bury, totally, totally. NEIL: It’s like the kimchi of wrenches. MIKE: Exactly, exactly. NEIL: What drove you to leave New York? MIKE: Oh God, I had a terrible day job, crushing, horribly boring development work that I was doing. And I don’t know if you knew, I’d had a bunch of surgeries on my ears. I had a genetic hearing loss condition and they actually messed it up in my right ear, so I’m super deaf in my right ear now. And it meant that I couldn’t DJ as much. And so I kind of lost the love of New York, and I was like, “Maybe I’ll go back to grad school.” And I did, and of course grad school is a little bit returning to the fourth grade playground. But you realize that your bully is secretly closeted and you’d just know that. And then I did my PhD down here at Chapel Hill and was lucky enough to get a job at Duke, and I teach in the writing program there. And I have been kind of unlearning grad school since then, but enjoying life. NEIL: What is unlearning grad school consist of? MIKE: I mean, I’d be curious about what your own experiences of this actually is because you teach in another kind of weird, precious environment. The performance of mastery, I think is one of the most insane and weird things that we encounter. There’s some tension between mastery and a willingness to just be open to what is, I feel they push each other away. And I feel like a willingness to be open to what is, requires a particular kind of thinking and willingness to take things apart in a careful way. Whereas the production of mastery is, do I know these terms? Can I Lord over this seminar space? Can I make some comment that seems complex? And there’s so much value placed on that style of interaction. NEIL: That question of mastery makes for such a great segue to the first card, the connection between teaching art and 19th century medical practices. You tell someone like, “We will bleed you for 30 minutes and then you must go home and apply the poultice.” MIKE: Yeah like, “Wait for the moon to wax, and put these three stones on your back steps.” NEIL: Exactly, but instead it’s, watch this other artist read this text. MIKE: Yeah, I feel like mastery and practice are at odds with each other. NEIL: Yes, yeah. MIKE: Practice is what I’m into, practice, just keep practicing, right? You just have to keep doing. NEIL: Yes, yeah, and if you’re holding onto idea of mastery, you will make one piece of work, maybe. Because making art is about getting to the place of most resolved failure, where the failure becomes clear, and then that is what carries you over into the next piece. Also this idea of professional development, to use that term where, where so many students have the idea of, “Okay, well, if I do this, this, this, and this, I will have an art career versus if you do this, this and this, you will make art, I guess.” MIKE: Well, I mean mastery, it relies on it in some ways, like the way that we’re so addicted to exceptionalism. It’s a weird narrative that despite the fact that all, effectively statistically, all artists are failed artists, right? NEIL: Right, exactly. Exactly, exactly. MIKE: They’re like, “No, it’s going to be me. I’m going to be the next Jeff Koons, but I hate Jeff Koons.” That whole… NEIL: Totally, that is the Vegas thing that keeps graduate programs in business. This card is writing midterm evaluations for art school is like doing a horoscope. MIKE: Oh my God, I love that for a number of reasons, just because I imagined you doing it. Just sitting cross legged with your taro out and the incense going, just watching videos of student work on your phone or something. You’ve got a very rough hewn robe on, you’re like- NEIL: You nailed it. MIKE: … your wicker sandals, whatever it is that gets you in that sort of coastal medieval witchcraft mood. Yeah, it’s funny, as a grader, I tell my students that I’m a harsh critic, but an easy grader. We have to be able to look at our own work with critical kind of generosity and be willing to be wrong. But to be a generous writer is a whole thing that takes your whole life to do. It’s easy to be critical, right? It’s easy to be snarky and sarcastic or funny or quick, right? You can be creative and original, but also quick in a way that I feel is not always helpful, right? Being generous is about taking care, but also I was just thinking about it and if only we could be actually honest. If only you could just be super honest with your students about what they’re doing. MIKE: I mean, would that change what you said to yours? Because I feel like I am honest to a certain extent, but I’m also not, and I don’t mean this in a mean way, but I just want to be like, “This is just a terrible waste of your time, this thing that you’ve written. The way that you’re going here, isn’t going to get anywhere that’s going to be fun for you, interesting for other people, allow you to do the work that you’re going to do.” And I never quite do that. NEIL: That’s where the horoscope comes in though, about I’m honest but there’s always kind of a anomic, is that the word? You add this intentional ambiguity. MIKE: It’s both honest and a little bit of a sidestep- NEIL: Exactly, yeah, yeah. MIKE: You’re like, “There’s something that’s not right here. It’s in this thematic zone of things that aren’t right, consider that zone for yourself.” NEIL: You said something about mortality as it relates to grades and we’re all going to die. MIKE: No, my thing was like… I think the thing that I always want and increasingly want, I always want students to think of themselves in their lives… Think of themselves as living their lives, not as having goals about what it should be. I was at Chapel Hill and now I’m at Duke, they’re both iterations of very fancy campusy bubble experiences. The way that we produce the isolation of education always struck me as a little bit problematic. I used to teach about labor at Duke and I’d be on the first day, my activity was like, “On one side of this card, tell me a job that you want based on your experience here. And then on the other side, tell me a job that you would love to have if money were no object or job security were no object?” And it’s like stockbroker, magician. The world of the jobs they want is the world we all want to live in. It’s like, runs a dog farm, is a chef, is a magician. And the really problematic ones are the ones that are stockbroker, stockbroker. MIKE: I think in my most compassionate sense, I want to be like, for kids who are really freaking out, but really good students just be like, “This is great, it wasn’t awesome. There’s a lot more in the world that you should be thinking about besides this class. Go call your mom, go be with your family, go do something that’s about your life that’s worth living because you’re getting lost in the illusion of mastery.” NEIL: Professor Dimpfl, what’s my grade? MIKE: Yeah, literally at the end of all that, I’ll give them this whole… I will put on my NEIL: shaman cloak, I will go for a walk around Duke’s campus and I’m trying to share some… I’m always trying to get all my aphorisms in check and at the end they’re like, “But do I still have an A minus?” NEIL: Okay, those people who you think are going to eventually feel embarrassed for themselves, but never do. MIKE: I feel like they’re from a more perfected future. People who are never embarrassed, I feel like they just are doing it better, right? Their inability to feel shame is in some ways a rejection of our worst selves, right? Shame is a wasted emotion, it’s not even they’re proud, it’s post embarrassment. Not being able to feel embarrassment is not about not being ashamed, it’s just being beyond embarrassment. If we could only live in that world, think about how forgiving you would be about being wrong, if being embarrassed wasn’t a part of being wrong. NEIL: So where does Donald Trump fit in that? Sorry to do that but… MIKE: Donald Trump is from the post embarrassed future, at his best self. There’s some childhood version of Donald Trump that would be able to exist in the post embarrassed future. And in a tragic way, he was just corrupted in the most horrible way by his life and turned into this horrible… He is his own portrait of Dorian Gray, there was some switch that happened. He walked through the mirror, in the mansion early on and that was it. It’s actually Ronald Trump that we wanted to be living with and Donald was the one that we got. But the ethos there, I think isn’t wrong. The content is horrible and hideous, but the idea that you would live in a world where your mistakes, aren’t the thing that define you is a world beyond embarrassment. NEIL: This episode is going to be called post embarrassment, I think. MIKE: I hope for all of us it is, I want that… Because shame is such a heavy, historical emotion. I don’t know if you read, I always want to call it The Velvet Rope, but that’s the Janet Jackson album, The Velvet Rage. NEIL: No, I never did. MIKE: The Velvet Rage is some queen wrote a book about how, it’s problematic in a number of ways, but the overarching theme is that gaze of a certain era learn shame before they have a word for it. And it just festers inside of them and creates all this anger and frustration and all these problems later on in life, the closet and all that stuff. And I think just in general, we govern ourselves so much through shame. Instagram culture is shaming. Facebook culture is all about shame. Mastery is about shame. Our actual inability to deal with the future, and the inevitability of death is about being ashamed that we’re not going to be living a life that’s rich enough to justify our death. I think that there’s a lot tied up in that experience. MIKE: And to be looking at someone who’s beyond embarrassment. I mean, I think about the people that I was like, “Gosh, I hope they feel embarrassed about that.” And now in retrospect, I just admire them all. I’m just like, “God, you just don’t care that everybody hates that joke. You just don’t care.” And your joie de vivre is unassailable and it’s a like a Teflon joie de vivre, what a joy. NEIL: Okay, next card. When someone mentions shit while you’re eating. MIKE: Oh my God… Okay, first of all, it just reads as when you mention shit, because I am this person. I still get toilet news from people that I’ve encountered across the globe, all the time. NEIL: Could you share for the audience, your professional relationship to shit? MIKE: My professional relationship to shit, I am not only a person who shits, like all of your audience, but I wrote a master’s thesis, I would like to say that it’s about toilet feelings. I interviewed a bunch of people who had been forced by the city of Syracuse to install composting toilets in their lake side cabins, as a means of protecting what was an unfiltered watershed. So they couldn’t install septic systems. They had this kind of high functioning, but archaic system where they all had outhouses, and instead of shitting just into a hole, they would shit into buckets. And then every week the city would come around on a shit boat and collect all of their buckets of shit and take them away from them. MIKE: A job that I think about a lot, just when your job is to, in the hot summer sun, drive around on a beautiful, pristine lake with a boat full of buckets full of shit. That boat is post embarrassment, that boat is living a post embarrassment life. We have nothing on that boat. MIKE: Anyway, so I wrote this master’s thesis and I interviewed all these households and it was a lot of older folks, people who have had these cabins for a long time and a lot of retired folks. And I’ll tell you what, if it’s summer and you’re going to visit an old retired couple and you actually want to talk to them about their shitting, they’re there for that. They are really there for that. In some ways, the knowledge of their own death to get back to it, the fact that they’re like, “It’s coming.” They’re like, “There’s no reason to hide.” They’re all trying to, for better or for worse, are trying to deal with these strange toilets that don’t flush and encountering them with their bodies that sometimes don’t work with them. MIKE: So this one couple, the wife was always on antibiotics and you can’t use a composting toilet when you’re on antibiotics because it kills the bacteria in the shit that actually digests the toilet, so it just becomes a kind of cesspool, kind of anaerobic nonsense. And so they had two toilets, one, one of my favorite, the macerating toilet, which is a toilet that has a food processor on the back that you turn it on and it makes this kind of horrible grinding noise, and it turns your poop into kind of a poo shake. And the other was this incinerating toilet, and it has a little jet engine in it and you poop and then this jet engine thing turns on and just burns your shit to ash, it’s like an outer space thing. I mean, obviously I had to use all of them, so it’s this crazy noise of like, “…” It’s like being in an airplane. MIKE: And so to be honest, I did it for two reasons. One was how we structure our relationship to the nature in our households is a real problem, right? We have a lot of weird ideas about what is inside and outside. I think that’s the kernel of truth behind it, if I were to be my post embarrassed self. But I think the other is that I just was so aware of the absurdity of grad school at a certain point that I was like, “I’m just going to write my stupid master’s thesis about people shitting.” So that I get to go to conferences and give presentations, which are like, “Here are things that people said about their own shit.” On panels of academics who were like, “What is the materiality of the biological other?” MIKE: All this theory that actually not only makes no sense, but it’s profoundly unethical and has no politics. And is the bread and butter of graduate school theory. All of these things where they’re like, “What is the boundary of the human? And we cannot tell.” And what do you say? It makes no sense. NEIL: I was just reading Jacques Derrida on the animal, he’s talking about the violence done on the animal. And someone asked him, “Are you a vegetarian?” And he was like, “I’m a vegetarian in my soul.” It’s like, “Fuck you.” I’m sure the suffering pig is so happy that you’re a vegetarian in your soul. MIKE: So happy to hear that, like in a real zen like moment. NEIL: Yeah. MIKE: But the crazy thing about that shit thing is I was at dinner the other weekend with Jackson’s sister’s family and she’s a plastic surgeon. And I just thought about, I’m mentioning shit at the table and maybe people are uncomfortable with that or whatever. And she was like, “Yeah, this…” One of her former clients was run over by a backhoe or something. But she talked about reconstructing one of her breasts and then did this gesture of like, “And then you just kind of stitched up her chest.” And kind of did this putting out a vest of your chest skin kind of gesture. And I had a bite of food in my mouth and I was like… It turned to like ash. MIKE: On the one hand, it was perhaps the appearance of mime at the dinner table that I was like, “Goddammit, mimes.” I wanted it to seal myself up in my own mime box to not have to hear it. But then I was sort of like, “Wow, props to mime, it’s a powerful medium. Actually, I get it now, you can fake make the wall all you want.” MIKE: But when you hear someone mentioning shit, are you that person? Or are you someone- NEIL: I’m not mentioning shit at the table, no. MIKE: You’re not NEIL: I think about it all the time, but I know I don’t talk about it at the table. And Jeff, for instance, my husband, Jeff will casually mentioned shit at the table and I’ve never told him in our 12 years of being together… MIKE: Don’t do that. NEIL: Yeah, because at that moment, something happens in my mouth. Yeah, where it’s just like, it’s wrong, but yeah. MIKE: You got to be post embarrassed about it. You got to just be like, “Yep, I’m just chewing future shit right now.” NEIL: Right, future shit, future shit. I love… Oh, God. Makers spaces and the fetishization of making. MIKE: I don’t even know what’s that… I just want them to just be like, “Call it a real thing.” Where I understand what’s going on there. Makers spaces, it’s like we work. I find it to be such a twee like… The maker space is just Ren Fair trying to be normal. It’s like Ren Fair without the foam swords. I’m like, “What’s the point of going to Ren Fair if you can’t have a foam sword?” It’s like Ren Fair without the carbs, I guess is what I would say. NEIL: I think it’s Ren Fair with 3D printers. MIKE: It’s Ren Fair with 3D printers. Where is the raw craft in that? I feel like 3D printing is the cheating of making. NEIL: But the flip side of it, first of all, this is going to come back to shit, I just realized. But the flip side of it is the fetishization of making. Why don’t you just make and not tell us about it? MIKE: I think that there’s something there, the fetishization of making, because we live in embarrassed culture, so we know that we don’t make anything, right? NEIL: Right. MIKE: In the system we live in, we don’t make anything, right? You don’t make shit, you maybe make your lunch and that’s the end of it. NEIL: You exactly make shit. That is what you make. MIKE: You only make shit, and even that you’re like, “Let’s not talk about it.” The fetishization to me is just all back to the leg, what is missing? I mean, I’ll wear a cutoff overall that’s handmade, for sure. But I don’t need to post it on it in my Etsy account or the hand carved spoons, even though I really love the hand-carved spoons. It was a local spoon maker that I just found that’s in the triangle or whatever, and they make these gorgeous spoons and the fetishization of spoon making is that it’s very hard. People are like, “Oh, it’s a very…” I don’t know if you’ve heard that, but people are like, “If you carve wooden spoons…” It’s some achievement of woodwork to make a spoon. And I always think in my head, spoons have been around for a pretty long time, we’ve known how to scoop a thing for awhile. NEIL: Well, just the idea that you fetishize it by virtue of its difficulty, that is a… MIKE: Totally, totally. It’s like endurance performance art, right? Which I love, I’ll tell you this, I have been doing a performance art project with my friend Ginger for a couple of years now. It’s called, Leaving Impossible Things Unattended, it’s a waste project. And we work with plastic… We’ve made this half mile long braid of plastic bag that we roll in unroll in awkward ways. But we went to Miami to the art fair this year, and the piece that we did, it’s physically super, super hard. But watching people say stuff about it there, it’s like the fetishization of how painful it is, becomes the mark of its value. NEIL: Oh my God, yeah. MIKE: What I want to be is like, “No, encounter your fetishization of that as the mark of the thing you’re supposed to be thinking about here.” Your fetishization of that is more important to me as a thing that you’re engaging with right now, then anything that we’re doing. What is it about you that you need to see someone bleeding from the cut glass that they’re crawling over to be like, “That’s real.” NEIL: The thing I wanted to add, to just put a button on the whole question of maker spaces and what are we making, is when I was a kid, my parents would ask me, “Do you need to make?” MIKE: Oh yeah… Yeah, totally, to take a shit. NEIL: Right, do you need to make? MIKE: Yeah, no, I feel like do you need to make is a North Eastern cultural description for taking a shit that is so like… I want to just know the colonial etymology of that, is it the puritanical thing or like… Also, I find, do you need to make to be similar to people who say that they make instead of take pictures, I make pictures, I make photos. NEIL: Oh, that’s interesting. MIKE: I’ve heard photographers say I make photos, instead of saying I take pictures. NEIL: Oh, right, right, I take photos, yeah. I get that.   MIKE: …around shitting in the exact same… it’s like, do you need to make a shit or do you need to take a shit? I mean, why don’t we say, I need to leave a shit because that’s really what’s happening. NEIL: Okay, let’s end with one last question, which is, what keeps you going? MIKE: I think the thing that mostly keeps me going is a pretty secure notion that it’s not supposed to be bliss, it’s just supposed to be work. So if you’re ready to work in whatever way, then life is just going to keep unfolding for you moving forward, right? There is a future if you think that life is a struggle. Because that’s a beautiful thing, even though it’s incredibly difficult. And I think that, even though I have a deep, deep concern for the future and I certainly worry about it a great deal, I don’t feel hopeless. I don’t feel like a cynic or a nihilist I guess. I don’t have that energy in me whatsoever because it’s not supposed to be easy. NEIL: Mike… MIKE: Neil… NEIL: This is amazing, thank you so much for being on She’s a Talker. MIKE: And it’s my absolute pleasure.

In today's part two of two Chuck is talking once again to Mike Nunez about his tips for being a successful buyer. We first heard about Mike's nine tips for a successful acquisition, and today he delves into the types of things he looks for in a business he is considering for purchase. We're also diving deep into one tip that Mike shared on part one of this two-part series. Finally, Mike also shares some great efficiency tools he's loving these days. Episode Highlights: What Mike looks for when buying a business. What he brings to the business with his own expertise. Examples of things that stand out to Mike in a listing. Advertising account criteria he checks for in a potential new business. Goals and intentions he has and the opportunities he looks for when on the hunt for a business. The importance of keeping criteria lists. Tips for content sites looking for affiliates. Certain synergies to look for in a search. Lessons Mike has learned through his acquisitions. Tools Mike is using and recommending these days. Transcription: Mark: Chuck in the last podcast episode that we had we had Mike Nuñez on. He offered nine very actionable tips on how to be a very good buyer; how to be a buyer that can win deals by having the right disposition. And I know you guys talked; you guys are friends, you live close to each other there in Florida and all that. So you guys are friends and naturally, your conversations are long but also Mike's got a ton of content to share with us and you guys got into a second episode. What can we expect from the second episode with Mike Nuñez? Chuck: Yeah, so let's start off by saying if you haven't watched the first one or listen to it make sure you do because it kind of leads into this. On this one, we talked about what are the types of things that he's looking for as a buyer and you should be able to get some stuff out of that to help you figure out maybe some ideas for the types of things you're looking for. We also talked about; there was like one tip that we gave that he gave us somebody at Rhodium conference a year or two ago and it gave that guy a 25% boost in his revenue like overnight. So that was a nice little take away there and then at the end of the call, one of the things I always like to do is just ask for any special tools or things that he uses so he gives us a list of additional tools he uses so a pretty little bonus at the end. Mark: Fantastic. Mike is a great guy. I'm super glad that he was able to come back on the podcast. Let's get right into it. Chuck: All right welcome back everybody this is Chuck Mullins here with Quiet Light Brokerage and this is part two of a two-part segment with Mike Nuñez. Welcome, Mike; welcome back. Mike: Thank you, Chuck. Thanks for being accepting of my long-windedness. Chuck: No, I think we had a lot of great stuff in the last one. If anybody didn't get a chance to watch it you might want to go back and watch that one first. What did we end up on; nine super-secret tips? Mike: They go to 9, yeah 9 super-secrets. Chuck: 8 or 9 super-secret tips of how to be a great buyer which Mike Nuñez is a great buyer. Now we wanted to segway in and Mike wanted to make sure that everybody know that he's not wearing, or he is wearing the same suit but only because we're recording these back to back because the last one went pretty long. So you still look great Mike. For anybody who didn't watch the last one, Mike purchased a custom-tailored suit business from us so this is probably why he's wearing the suit because I've never seen him wear a suit before he had purchased that business. So he's definitely stepped up his wardrobe game since then. So today we wanted to talk about what you're looking for when you buy a business and maybe some of the lessons you've learned along the way. So again maybe let's start off; before we jump into that just give a brief introduction for anybody who didn't watch the first part of the series about you. Mike: Well, so I think it's important if you're listening to this one you probably should listen to the first one first because it does set up a lot of the things that we're going to talk about here. But for those that just don't listen, I've been in internet marketing for about 20 years now. I spent most of it working for an agency or owning an agency. I worked for Google for four years in their paid, search division. And so today I own a company called AffiliateManager.com that manages affiliate programs as well as the performance company which manages paid search for companies as well. So that's the super brief synopsis. Chuck: Perfect. So let's jump into what is it that you look for when you're buying a business? Always people come to me and they; Chuck what kind of business should I buy? And I say okay well what are your interests, what are you good at? So I think you probably you're looking…well, let me just let you tell what are you looking for. Mike: Yeah, so I think it's important to say what I look for or what we look for; so I do have a pretty solid team around me but what we look for is going to be very different than what somebody else looks for. And so please take that with a grain of salt; everything that I'm going to say today and I think is important for everyone to just recognize, just be self-aware what is it that you are incredibly good at? If you're good at sales go find a company that has an incredible product and but they're bad at sales and you plug yourself in and you now have an incredible business overall. Or if you're fantastic at operations go find a company that's selling like crazy but their operations just can't keep up with all the offers and plug yourself in there and that's going to work. I like to say that real opportunity is at the intersection of two different expertise or two different types of expertise. So for me, it's online business and online marketing and I'm not so great at everything else. So I'm not an operations person, I'm not a finance person so I don't look for companies that are lacking in those areas. I look for companies that are strong in those areas and that are; I don't want to say lacking because I think that's potentially disrespectful to either the people that I purchased businesses from or will in the future but it's more where I see opportunity where they wouldn't know unless they worked at Google for several years or they wouldn't know unless they've been in online marketing for 20 years or they never had an affiliate program. They never thought about it and we're incredible at it. So plugging what we are really good at into things that maybe they've tried that they're above average at because you have to be above average if you're going to own an online business but they've spread themselves so thin that they couldn't be an expert at just one thing. Another nice side effect that I've seen with buying these businesses, some of the previous owners they just worked so long and hard in the business that when you're so down in the weeds like that it's hard to pull yourself out and kind of take a 40,000-foot view picture. When acquiring a company it's almost a natural thing that happens along the way and you start to say okay let me take a step back and look at this not so closely; so close I can't tell exactly what this is and what's going on. And then as you start to peel that back and say okay this is something that the previous owner did, is this something that I need to take over, do I bring the value? The previous owner either maybe they enjoyed it, maybe they liked it, or maybe they were really good at it but I'm not and so the answer there is who else within the company can take that over. And I got to say that's probably one of the biggest benefits of purchasing an online company not only for the buyer but for the seller that they're able to peel themselves out and all the while that's the transition of okay these are the daily duties that this person does and this is who can take that over. So the new buyer; so myself as an example can go focus on what we're good at. So with that caveat to what it is that you're asking some of the things that I look for and I think just another quick note on this; this is an ever-evolving list, just because I've written this today doesn't mean that there's not more to come. Every time we go through a business or every time actually we have a call we run into an issue with the current business. I say okay that sounds like an opportunity that when we purchase the next business that we need to look at and say can we help there. So some of these are super simple and most listeners might say oh well that that's kind of common sense. Well, it's not always common sense. Somebody on this call is going to really or somebody listening to this podcast is going to really benefit from it but I listed because it's things that I want to make sure that I go and check every time that we're looking at a business. So, for example, we are like I said really good at online marketing specifically affiliate marketing and paid search. So we'll go look do they have an affiliate program? Are they overpaying? Are they not paying out commission based off of the influence that each affiliate had on that actual transaction? It's actually super interesting to see how much people overpay for things. And even more interesting to see when they're underpaying affiliate. So for example affiliates, they are business just like you, just like me and they want to maximize their revenue for their inventory. A lot of people get stuck and they look oh my competitor pays 5% commission, that's what I'm going to go pay. But a really good affiliate is equivalent to an upper-funnel page search keyword. And if you're paying a two to one for an upper funnel page search keyword; let's use my custom suit business, if I'm willing to get a two to one for the keyword custom suits or men's custom suits, if I'm willing to take a two to one return on ad spend for that I should be willing to pay an affiliate who is upper funnel; who's educating customers about me, I should be willing to pay them a 50% commission because they're upper funnel. Chuck: Alright so that makes a lot of sense to use something that you do on a day to day basis with your main business to look to acquire a company. So can you give some examples of specifically what something you might look for is? Mike: Sure. I'll give two examples one of where we succeeded at this and one where we failed but then you use that failure to learn and regroup. So the first business that we acquired we identified that there was a significant amount of overspent. It wasn't the previous owner's fault. They had hired an agency who was just; they were doing good. I would give them a six out of 10. But within 20, 30 minutes we can evaluate a Google Ads account and say we can save this account 10, $15,000 a month. Chuck: And you were talking about like an Ad Words account as opposed to affiliate stuff? Mike: Correct. Yeah, a Google Ads account that maybe this ad, the Google Ads accounts is spending 50, 60, $70,000 a month and if we can look in there and say we can save 10, 15, 20,000 on this and still get the same level of sales based off of our expertise we're adding 1 to $200,000 straight to the bottom line; straight to EBITDA and we did exactly that. We actually just finished reviewing January through October and we actually generated more sales than the same period last year and we spent I think it was $160,000 less to do so in that period. Chuck: It kind of goes against the thought of ad expenses are going up, right? There's more and more competition every day for ads so people think that but yet you're able to cut ad spend and make more money with it. Mike: That's 100% correct. You have to know what you're doing. There are very, very few good paid search companies out there. And I know because I used to work with a lot of them when I was at Google. Kevin who's on our team; his job was to go out and train agencies on how to appropriately use Google Ad Words. Pat who's the mastermind on our team has been doing Google paid search since Yahoo or as Yahoo started before Google was in existence. So it's just such a level of expertise that we have on our team overall that we can go and then apply and get these level of savings overall. And again it's straight to the bottom line and we take that money; the first acquisition was partly done via an SBA loan and the savings that we've got doesn't quite cover the SBA loan but it's about 75% of it. It's almost like we acquired the company for the price of the down payment and a much smaller SBA loan so to speak. So that's got to be our number one criteria; same thing with an affiliate program again with the first acquisition they weren't doing attribution based commissioning. It was a smaller effect on the overall business. We probably saved somewhere between 30 and 40,000 for the entire year on that one. So it's again a much smaller effect but that's a part-time person. That's an initiative that we can go fund now because we're saving 30 to 40 grand that we wouldn't have to spend otherwise. Chuck: So let's call out specifically there what it is you're looking for. So Mike looks at a company, requests access to their ad account, and then Mike looks for what? Mike: So in their ad account I'm looking at are they using negative keywords appropriately, what bidding algorithm are they using on Google, what matching types are they using, are they using segmentation correctly. And this is all super 40,000-foot level things but as Pat, our behind the scenes masterminds like to say, a poorly run paid search program is typically death by a thousand paper cuts. It's not one of these things. It's a thousand of these things that we meticulously go and identify, find, correct, and improve. Chuck: Alright so you will go into an account, you see all these things and they're doing everything right does that mean okay it's a great company I'm not looking to buy this one; like are you specifically, if there's not something you can fix you're not going to acquire it? Mike: Yeah, that's a fun question. The good news is for me at least I've never seen one. That's good. And to be fair I've seen; when we are getting an RFPN for the agency business I've seen two or three that were so well run that we tell them we can't help, they're doing an amazing job. You're going to look to us for growth in three or four months and we're not going to deliver because your current company is doing fantastic so don't leave them. But when acquiring a business and the research that I do before making an offer I have not yet come across that. If that were the case yes it's not a kiss of death but it is a factor in whether or not we feel like we should purchase the business because we know that there's so many out there that do it so poorly. Investing; I know I'm not teaching anybody on the call anything new with this but investing is where's the next best place to spend your dollar? And if they're doing a bad job with paid search that's a good place for me to spend my dollar because I know we can fix that. If they're doing an incredible job well there's probably a better place for me to go spend my dollar. Chuck: Sure. And I don't think it's a negative thing for you to say nope I'm just going to move on to the next one they're doing everything right. Like you're looking for specific things in order to want to acquire and like you said you've only got so many dollars to spend. You need to place it where it's going to do the most good for you. And if somebody else is doing everything right like that's not your area of expertise to grow the business. Maybe again they're not doing sales well and that's not what you're specifically looking at so sales is where the person that is going to end up ultimately acquiring the business is good at. And there's also people who maybe they don't have necessarily an expertise at something and they're just looking for an overall good run business that can keep chugging away for the years to come. And that's not a negative like just because you don't have some really specialized thing that you're good it doesn't mean that buying a business would necessarily be a bad idea for you. Mike: Yeah it's one of those things begin with the end in mind, right? And if the if your end goal is that you want a super stable business but it's not going to grow because everything is so well optimized and you're willing to pay the same multiple for it and you just want to kind of run that business day to day as is without expectation of growth then that's it. And there are people that want that. I would even consider a business like that if it was strictly almost a lifestyle business. But the businesses that we're buying; our goal, our intention is to take this 15 million dollar company and turn it into a 25, 50, 100 million dollar company and so there has to be opportunity when we're purchasing and the bigger the opportunity that we identify that we can do so fairly quickly with what we have the more we're willing to pay for it and the more we're willing to compete for it overall. Chuck: So we were talking recently we had lunch and you said that you recently discovered something with one of your businesses that was something you know I'm going to start looking for that and it revolved around shipping. Do you remember what we were talking about? Mike: Oh yes I have it. It's on my list. And that's funny and that's yet another reason to have a list right, right? Chuck: Right. Mike: And so as we're talking like; I know I'm not alone in this, right? I know you're like this Chuck. I'm sure you, the person listening to this right now is the same way. And I'll wake up in the middle of night and I feel like sometimes not thinking about things or telling yourself think about this in the back of my mind and you'll solve problems; like I'll get things out there just to solve them. I'll wake up in the middle and be like that's the answer to this and literally I'll roll over, I'll pick up my phone, and I'll just type a note to myself and say this is the answer and I'll go back to sleep. And the one that you're talking about is we have a warehouse for both of the business but the one that we're talking about now has a warehouse, a large warehouse; tens of thousands of square feet, I'm not sure exactly how big it is but we were getting fined by the shipping company because the dimensions of our packaging was incorrect. And so as we printed out the shipping labels for it, it was off maybe by an inch or whatever it was. And so when we send it to FedEx who was our shipping carrier and they would measure it we would be off by however much and they would actually fine us and so it added to tens of thousands of dollars in fines that we are receiving; not shipping costs, fines because our dimensions were wrong. And so for less than $10,000, we purchased a dim scanner and basically eliminated that. That dim scanner pays itself in one to two months and then from that point forward we now recovered yet another 20, $30,000 back. So you see the recurring theme here; paid search, this is how much we can save by doing it better, affiliate, this is how much we can save by doing it better, shipping, this is how much we can save by doing it better and then here's the freaking key. Like this is the thing though; don't just sit on that. And again I guess this depends on your goal. If your goal is to just absolute squeeze every penny out of these companies that you want then go and do it. My goal is growth and to turn these companies into large companies so that one day I may list with Chuck and get a great multiple on these companies. But take those dollars that you're taking and now do all of the things on the list; in that plan and the things that the previous owner said I could never afford, I could never get to, I can never pay somebody to do it. Now you found the funds to go and actually do those things. Use that money to fund that growth. Again I'll refer to Pat who runs our paid search; he calls that feed the winners starve the losers, so just taking the wasted money and putting it back into reinvest on growth and winning. Chuck: So with the shipping fines that you discovered how long have you been running this business; it's been a year and a half? Mike: A year and a half, yeah. Chuck: And you just discovered it now. Is there something that you are having; we don't know what we don't know, right? So we don't know what to look for. Is this something that you could have identified on day one to have seen even more value? Mike: Yeah, thanks for pointing it out Chuck. It's always painful to look back and say oh we could have made an additional 30 to 50 grand in the last 12 months if we just would have found this. Chuck: And this is probably not a common problem, right? But it's something you're going to look for in the future. Where would they have identified that; what due diligence would you have done in order to have seen that? Mike: Yeah, looking at the shipping invoices and seeing exactly what those are. And there are some pretty cool companies out there that will A) look at that for you and B) they'll actually monitor your shipping and make sure that it arrives on time. There's one called Late Shipment it's I think the one that we use; LateShipment.com and if FedEx doesn't deliver within the agreed-upon time; the one to two days, they'll actually refund; we get a refund on that shipping cost. So that's another example if they're not using; if you send out a million dollars or if you pay a million dollars in shipping costs every year and I think I know ours is above a million but I'll just use that, so a million dollars, if you can recoup 2, 3, 4% that's 20, 30, $40,000 back in your pocket that just appeared out of nowhere. So that's another one on my list. So are they using a dim scanner? Are they getting fined for this? Are they using LateShipment.com and getting a refund on anything that's late? Again stacking up this $160,000 in savings in paid search, $40,000 in savings in affiliate, 30 to 50,000 in dim scanner, late shipment another 30 to $40,000 just stacking and stacking and stacking. Another one is credit card fees; are they using a good credit card process? Have they negotiated their rates since they grew from zero to 15 million dollars in sales? And if they haven't that's an opportunity like just a one or two; what do they call them? Bits I think is what they call it but it could mean a huge difference in your overall company. Just one or two bits is 15 to $30,000 on a 15 million dollar business. Chuck: And so in your defense, I think on the shipping thing the company that you purchased did have one of those companies in place that were looking at the delayed shipments but that company wasn't looking at the penalties you were receiving. Mike: That's right. Chuck: So even if somebody is using a company that is monitoring the late shipping and getting those refunds they may not be looking at the fees which is strange. You think they'd be doing it but they weren't. Something I've heard you say at conferences when looking at it from a different type of business, so right now we're kind of talking about e-commerce but you also work with people who are doing content sites and their affiliates with other people. So what's your number one tip if you purchased a content site that makes money off affiliates; what's your number one tip for those people? Mike: Go ask for a raise. Chuck: What does that mean? Mike: Go to the affiliate management; either the advertiser or the affiliate management company who's managing them and say I want to make more. And there's many ways that you can position that. One is if you're a content site just know that my affiliate company, AffiliateManager.com is always looking for more content sites. We want to bring that value to our clients and you are in a position; it's a content site's market, let me put it that way. We all want what you have and some make the mistake of because they've been beat down and offered 1, 2, 3, 5, 10% commissions in the past day they just turn away affiliate marketing. Don't do that. You're leaving money on the table. If you find a good advertiser or a good affiliate management company that knows what they're doing and they know that this content site is upper funnel and bringing incremental business to the table they're going to be willing to pay for that and they might pay 20%, 25%, 30%. One of our clients pays 100%. Another one pays up to $150 for an acquisition and they might make zero on it. So it's just one of those things where you have to go and be willing to ask for a raise. And again a good affiliate management company they're going to look at the incremental value, we; not to get too much into us because I know this is more about acquisition but we actually have an attribution tool that we built because it didn't exist that shows where in the clickstream each of these sites are. And if it's a content site going back to your point and we look at their overall numbers and 70% of the time they're the first touch for anybody who's making a purchase on your site, yes we want that incremental traffic and sales coming from that content site. So to you content sites out there you are in a position of desire. We all want to work with you more and go and ask for raises. Somebody who recognizes your value is going to very much be willing to pay it. And if they're not go find somebody else; they're going to be willing to pay it. You are valuable. Chuck: And just to give an example of something like that. I've got a number of content sites and one of them the affiliates that I was getting paid from is a Canadian company and they send me a Canadian check. So every time I cash the Canadian check I get hit with like a 10 or $20 cashing fee. And it's just like annoying and it's small amount of money but it's annoying so I emailed them and I said hey can you just like PayPal me the money or wire me the money or do something else because I want to get ahold of the $10 fee every time I cash your check and they go oh how about we just double what we pay you? Okay, that'll work. So they really are willing; if they see the value in what you're providing them they are willing to pay more, so just a nice little tip there from Mike Nuñez. Mike: Yeah. And there was a guy Greg; I won't say his last name at Rhodium one year and I said that at a table and one year later he came back and said by that one tip that you just said because he was a content site or is a content site, I have grown my revenue by 25%. All I did; I didn't do anything else but go back and ask for a raise and the revenue on my site grew 25%. Chuck: Amazing. Mike: Free, yeah. Chuck: Alright, so we've talked about shipping, we've talked about affiliate, we've talked about ads, is there anything else specifically that you're looking for when you're acquiring? Mike: Yeah if they're not on Amazon I think that's a pretty obvious one. If they are on Amazon and either doing a poor job or no job at Amazon ads; Amazon ads I probably the biggest opportunity right now for everyone that sells on Amazon. Chuck: And this is kind of new to you in the last couple of years, right? Mike: Yeah. Well, I mean it didn't really exist a couple of years ago or it was very nascent. So it's still one of those things like if you remember Google back in the day when clicks used to be available for a penny or five cents and such. Chuck: Yeah man they sent me a refrigerator. I had spent so much money I got a Google refrigerator. Mike: So I'm not saying that pen that clicks are available for a penny on Amazon but if you incorporate the right system and how to manage it you can gross it; like I'll give you physical numbers year over year in November even those Cyber Monday fell outside of November this year. We grew Amazon sales on that outdoor brand by 50% using Amazon ads. So it's another example of having expertise in this paid search world and finding opportunities within it. Amazon ads; I think maybe that's super-secret number 10. I think we've gotten away from the super secrets but maybe super-secret number 10 and it's probably one of the most powerful ones I see right now available for people. Chuck: So what else are you looking for? Mike: So besides being on Amazon and Amazon ads, me personally I'm looking for a strong operational foundation because I'm not an expert at that. I'm not good at that but thankfully the businesses that I purchase have that. I'm looking for a barrier to entry like how replicatable is this business and what is the barrier that people have to get through? And this is a little bit less quantifiable but this is just a general do I want to be involved in this business; how hard is it for somebody who's just as good at paid search as me or Amazon or whatever, if they just got a hold of my supplier could they replicate this and do I want that? And if the answer is it's too easy then I move on. Is it a learnable industry? One of the things I was worried about with the custom suit company was maybe before purchasing it I wasn't as sharp a dresser, Chuck. Maybe my wardrobe might have consisted of free conference t-shirts but I was worried about that and… Chuck: You're pulling it off still. Mike: Thank you. And once I got into it I learned no this is a learnable industry. I can do this and it's worked great since then. Is it Amazon resistant? And I know that's a little counter to saying are they on Amazon. Is Amazon going to move into that space? Are they going to want to replicate what it is that you're doing? And on the outdoor brand, it's more of we joined to them; we couldn't beat them so we joined them and a good 50, 60% of our sales are on Amazon on that brand. On the suit brand, we're looking to sell accessories; expand our brand awareness because you can't sell custom suits on Amazon and it's unlikely that Amazon is going to get into that realm. So we're thinking how can we use Amazon to expand our brand awareness, generate some confidence in the brand, and yet not have to; since we're not able to send custom suits and sell custom suits on Amazon directly so is Amazon a threat to the business is something that we look at overall. Inventory management optimization; so leveraging just in time inventory because anybody that's involved in an inventory-based business knows that a lot of times your profit can go straight back into purchasing additional inventory. And if you want to realize any profits before you sell the business you've got have inventory optimization. Is the current ownership leveraging that inventory optimization? Are there conversion rate optimization opportunities; have they ever even tried it before? I just had a call today for the suit company and this is going to be ultra-specific but it is an indicator of what we've done. We launched a new cart in early November and we just ran the numbers and today on desktop for new customers we have doubled our conversion rate which anybody knows that the lifeblood of a business is acquiring new customers. So to do that is pretty amazing. Now on mobile, it was pretty static but we've also generated significant amounts of more traffic on mobile to the suit company. So that's a little bit misleading to say that it's exactly the same. Well anybody who knows conversion rate optimization and knows how traffic works; if you increase traffic the quality is potentially a little bit lower and so the fact that we slightly beat our previous conversion rate on mobile is a huge win. So are there conversion rate optimization to opportunities in the acquisition? Here's one that you know is near and dear to my heart, Chuck. What is the current platform; are they on Net Suite, on Shopify, on Magento? Because the one thing I never ever recommend is changing platforms. So can you accomplish all of the things on your list that you want to do on the platform? We use Net Suite as one of them and it is extremely difficult to get changes done but we are not moving. So it's just something that I think everybody should really consider. Or are you on an archaic platform like at Yahoo stores; something that's not being updated anymore and there's seven people in the world that can code to Yahoo stores? Now you're beholden to them. You have to pay exorbitant rates for their development because they're the only one that knows it as opposed to a Shopify or a Magento that developers are plenty. Chuck: If you're on Yahoo shout out to Rob Snell, look him up if you need help with your Yahoo business. Mike: There you go. See I didn't even mean that. That helps. And I think the last thing; us particularly we enjoy custom products, so custom made suits is a really good example or even for the branded products; things that other people makes, turning them into custom products. We really think that that's a good market to be and again slightly more defensible against an Amazon. And then finally this is my last on my company acquisition algorithm that I'll share today just I know we're limited on time is what synergies can you participate in? So if you listen to the last call you heard me talking about a brand that we made an offer on that it was a full price offer, quick close, no due diligence because it was a trusted brand. And before Chuck chimes in, he recommends that you never do that but the reason why we wanted that brand is because it was geared towards outdoor enthusiasts and we have tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of outdoor enthusiasts that come to our website every day. So looking for synergistic brands that are out there to acquire and diversify the income and now not only sell other people's brands but also sell your own brand; white labeling things like that, finding things with opportunities like that, that's the last opportunity that we're looking for in our algorithm. Chuck: Awesome. Alright, so now let's maybe move into what some of the lessons you've learned from the various acquisitions you've done. And you had acquired some stuff before Quiet Light as well. Mike: Yeah. So I think a lot of them are listed on what I just said but I will say there's; because every time I learn a lesson to me it's an opportunity for the next acquisition. So again I will buy another business on Net Suite but I wouldn't have bought the first one knowing what I know now about Net Suite. But now that we've had to learn it, now that we've had to; our developer is familiar with it now and can make the changes that we need and want, now I'll buy another one. And so to me there's an opportunity there, right? It's harder for people to do that than it is for me. It's yet another level of expertise. So that's one thing is a lot of the lessons are kind of listed already in that but there's one I would say recently and again it's with the custom suit business, don't get so caught up in your own expertise. Again we are really, really good at paid search and one of the reasons why is because we're so return focused. A mistake that we made with the custom suit business is we went straight for a return. If a dollar didn't turn into five; I'll just use that as an example, we didn't spend it. And because of that, we saw sales drop. And I talked to the previous owner about it and said hey we're seeing this, why? And he's like well yes cross-device tracking is good however it doesn't capture everything. And mobile devices; think about who buys suits these days, and it's somebody with a mobile life. It's a lawyer that's always in the courtroom. It's a doctor that's always walking about. It's a financial person that's not necessarily sitting at their desk, they're going to meeting after meeting after meeting and where are they searching up for their next suit? Well, it's probably their mobile device. They find it and then they go on the desktop and they go on and they purchase it. And we had pulled back pretty significantly on the mobile spend because the conversion rate just wasn't as good. And so that's one example of us kind of getting in our own way. But to our credit, we were able to kind of step back and say okay we learned a lesson here, let's get better at it and change our approach. And since then that's when we now had some of our best days that we've ever had. So I like to think of it as a lot of these owners or the previous owners they had levels of expertise; they were doing something right and so it's our job as experts that are better at it to take the lessons that they've learned and apply our expertise to it to just throw some gasoline on it. Chuck: Alright Mike so one of the ways I like to usually end these things is just to ask if you have any kind of tools that you use on a regular basis; just some things that can either help with productivity, it could even be outside of work. One example the other day I was kind of upset about it because you ordered the chicken sandwich from Popeye's through Uber Eats so that you didn't have to wait in line and you didn't bother sending me one. That's a great little life hack. So what else do you have? Do you have any tools that you might recommend or any other little things? Mike: I did the same thing with Amazon two years ago when they were operating like the one-hour delivery and we had a hurricane coming to Florida and I just ordered all the bottled water and had it delivered while everybody else is fighting each other at the store. But now that secret's out. That's no longer an advantage but yeah some tools that I like that we use; so for Google Ads, I'll say if you're using things like maximize for clicks run we prefer an enhanced CPC bidding algorithm or a target CPA. We always test to see which one's better. Prioritization, I love Air Table. I got to give a shout out to my business partner Daniel for that. Air Table is a prioritization tool and basically, it can help identify what is the easiest to implement to get the most impactful change that you can make. And so it just really helps to prioritize what it is that you're doing and the changes that you're making to the company because obviously, we all want to make the biggest impact as quickly as possible. I love Grammarly for sending emails so that I don't sound silly. Chuck: That one saves me all the time. Mike: It's so good. I haven't used their pro version but even just the regular version is fantastic. For the affiliate management company, I got to give a shout out to Mail Shake. We love Mail Shake. We use that very often. It's a terrific tool. I love Moz. So the Moz toolbar is something that I use a lot. And then I think we use a lot of the things everybody else uses like the Evernotes and Google apps and things like that. So I think the first ones that were probably some of the others may not have heard them. Chuck: Awesome. Well, I think everybody who's been listening appreciates your time. I'd love to have you back at another time. We can talk about some more stuff once you've hit that next goal of purchase through us we'll talk about that one. But again thank you for the time today and we'll talk to you again soon. Mike: Thanks, Chuck. Links and Resources: Affiliate Manager

In the second installment of our Incredible Exits series, we welcome Mike Jackness back to the podcast. Mike, one of our favorite guests, is here discussing the recent sale of his online business, ColorIt. Mike is a lifelong entrepreneur and hosts a podcast with a 30k listener following. On his show, he talks all things about e-commerce, email marketing, and Amazon. Mike's decision to sell this particular business was based not on struggling to grow it, but simply on the the need to offload something from his plate. He was well aware of what he'd done to grow it, and the potential for its future growth, he simply knew it was time to hand over the reins. We wanted to have Mike on to tell us firsthand how that process went, the challenges he faced, and how he eventually reached multiple offers. He shares some of the key things he did to get the business sold at 96% of the list price. We discuss how some acquisitions don't go as smoothly as others, even for someone who seems to have a great grip on how to grow and eventually sell an online business. Ths episode chronicles the sale and buying process: what Mike has done right and what he would change if he could. Episode Highlights: We hear about Mike's journey as an entrepreneur and what led him to start the Ecomcrew podcast. The factors that led him to sell one of his e-commerce businesses. Mike talks us through the 10 risk factors to take into account for e-commerce success. How Amazon can be the judge and jury when it comes to keeping your e-commerce business alive. The one thing he would go back and do differently in the transaction. The importance of planning in advance for an easier buyer transition. Why some entrepreneurs get caught up in the squirrel syndrome and often find that as they take on too much they run into trouble. Mike takes us through the launch process and how we got to the multiple with the right buyer. The importance of instilling confidence in the buyer. The inventory issue specific to this brand and how that affected the sale. Why one can't plan the perfect inventory in e-commerce business. How to find middle ground on the inventory excess in the sale and acquiescing when necessary. Why the seller makes all the difference in the sellability of the business. The way a seller should act under any circumstances.   Transcription: Mark: Joe you got to have one of our favorite podcast guests on; Mike Jackness. And Mike actually retained you or hired you to help sell one of his properties. And we get to do another episode … is this part of our Amazing Acquisitions? I don't know … our Amazing Exits I'm sorry. Joe: Incredible Exits, come on Mark get it right. Mark: My goodness, I made it up. It's a good— Joe: I don't even know what it's called. Somebody's going to tell me there's a certain term for things that flow off the tongue very well … incredible. Mark: It's almost as if I'm not paying attention to what you're doing at all. You got to have him on the podcast about selling his business. Joe: Indeed. Mark: I'd like to know about it. Joe: You know he's just an awesome human being and that made selling his business and the person buying it that more excited about it. Look, Mike is an influencer. He has a podcast where he's got 30,000 people listening to him every month and he talks about e-commerce and email marketing and Amazon. We had challenges because people are like well if Mike Jackness isn't killing it with this I don't know if I can do any better. But the reality was Mike was just simply chasing too many rabbits as he says. He had four brands inside of one seller account. He has the podcast and he has other projects going on. So he wasn't giving his full attention to this. So really the reason I wanted to have him on was to have people hear from him some of his … well-known and an influencer much larger audience in his podcast than we have what he was doing wrong. If he could go back and do it all over again how he would have changed things so that it would have been an easier process for him and we would have had … we had multiple offers but would have had a much easier process in reaching those multiple offers. And some of the key differences that he did to seal the deal. He didn't do it to seal the deal, he was just doing it anyway and it is what sealed the deal and got us under LOI at 96% of the list price. Mark: Yeah you know one of the most popular articles that I wrote on our blog back when I was doing all the blogging on Quiet Light Brokerage was the story of my own process of buying a business and in my own estimation failing at it. And frankly, as the founder of Quiet Light, it's kind of humbling to go out there and say yup I made an acquisition I completely failed but here is why. And I got so much good feedback from that saying this is great thank you for sharing these details because it really helps. So hearing from someone like Mike Jackness and his episode that you did with him is probably my favorite episode that we have that I've listened to. I don't listen to my own episodes which is why they aren't like [inaudible 00:03:51.2]. That episode from Mike Jackness in all seriousness he talks about email marketing and how he does email marketing. That's fantastic so if you haven't listened to it, go back and listen to it. It would be interesting to hear what he had as far as his own self-assessment when it comes to selling his business and some of the struggles that he had as well. And I think it might be encouraging for those of us that are out there like how are these guys doing all of it because we only hear about the successes, right? Joe: Yeah. There are challenges in here and I was … my initial plan was to do a two part series but we managed to get it all in. It's a little long folks. It's about 45 minutes or so and then the plan is to do a follow up episode about due diligence, closing, transition, and training. We may even have the buyer on and have all three of us on the podcast. Mark: It's 45 minutes? Joe: Yes. Mark: Well, I should shut up. We should get to it. Joe: Let's go to it. Joe: Hey, folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got somebody that's been on before; Michael Jackness from EcomCrew. Welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Mike: Welcome back. Joe: Welcome back is right. You actually inspired this type of episode as I said before we recorded. Folks Mike has … when he was on before he shared his expertise on email marketing and the use of Klaviyo. Today he's actually going to be our first exit entrepreneur or Incredible Exits guest. Mike decided to list his business for sale last December. We talked about it. We got it listed. And now we're under Letter Of Intent. We're recording this on February 12th and we wanted to share Mike's direct experience so that you hear it … hear about the process, and what you should do right, what you've done right and what you do wrong, and hear from somebody other than me. Mike has been through it. He's got an audience of 30,000 that listens on a monthly basis at EcomCrew. If you're not listening to EcomCrew … I know I'm promoting another podcast but it's one of the absolute best out there. Go to EcomCrew.com they're always helping entrepreneurs in the e-commerce space. So Michael Jackness, 30 seconds just tell some folks who you are again for those that didn't listen to the first episode that we did together. Mike: I'm basically a serial entrepreneur. I started my first business when I was a kid. I did have a stint for seven years in corporate life. One of my clients did hire me but for the last 15 years, I've been doing my own thing either in affiliate marketing or e-commerce lest the 5 plus years. And when I got on e-commerce I realized that we were coming at things a little bit differently. We kind of got at it as a tech company rather than a product company. And we realized we had a lot to share. So the entire process pretty much; as you mentioned EcomCrew, even blogging, and podcasting, and telling the world about what we've been doing. But one of the things that make us unique is we also talk about all the negatives not just the positive sunshine blue smoke up your ass crap. In fact we go out of our way to talk about some of the hardships of running a business and specifically e-commerce. So yeah that's a 10,000 foot view. Joe: And in just about 30 seconds; so thanks. Yeah, I get it, I can't emphasize enough. If you are a current e-commerce owner you should listen EcomCrew as well especially the Under the Hood series that I enjoy so much and inspired the Incredible Exit series here at Quiet Light. All right Mike at one point, you came to me. You reached out I think probably around Thanksgiving or so and said you wanted to exit. Did you plan that well in advance or did you just find yourself tired and ready to move on? Mike: Yeah, there were a ton of factors that went into that initial conversation. We had a different plan. I can tell you what. We'll talk a little bit about that but the plan was to do this a little bit longer. But I actually just did a podcast about risk factors in e-commerce and we don't have 30 minutes to go over the entire episode but there were 10 risk factors that I called out. Which basically were like the amount of inventory that you have, tariffs, taxes … just kind of like a risk to reward type of thing, competition, Amazon getting involved in brands, Amazon shutting your account down, getting unbalanced to be more Amazon than not off Amazon things of this nature. And for me what I realized … I started waking up one day realizing that for us this stuff they've kind of gone a little bit out of balance. We're at a point right now as we're doing this podcast because I haven't quite done the exit yet where we have $1.3 million in inventory total company wide as we've been growing. As you know in e-commerce it's hard to get any money out of your business because we are growing it 100% per year and it's a situation where money just keeps on piling back in the business. You have a tax bill every year and without the money to even pay for that because you're plowing everything back in the inventory for growth. And we have been running at that speed for almost four years. And because of some of those other risk factors, the kind of leverage is changing a little bit. I felt like it was time that we needed to take some chips off the table. And combining that with just honestly being a little burned out; running at that speed is definitely exhausting. I found myself either dreaming about Amazon shutting my account down or waking up every morning first thing and checking my inbox and seeing if they had been shut down. Not because we do anything black hat at all but because I see things that happen out there because of EcomCrew and also [inaudible 00:09:05.1]. You hear stories of people that legitimately didn't do anything wrong but it doesn't matter because Amazon can be the judge and jury and executioner all in one. And factoring all these different things in it just … it felt like it was time. And we didn't know it when I had that initial conversation with you. I didn't know exactly what that was going to look like. At one time we had talked about selling everything. I was kind of like just in a bit of bad mood that day and then we kind of start walking through some more realistic and better options to kind of end up [inaudible 00:09:35.9]. Joe: Yeah, let's talk about that the realistic option of selling everything I have things or setup because I really want people to learn from this process and what your goals were and the challenges that we've had and some of the amazing things that you have done throughout the process as well. So the first thing we looked at was selling all four of the brands that you have. You have it under one LLC and two of the brands are doing very, very well. And two of the brands are start up brands where they're really working at a loss because you have a tendency to just focus on organic traffic and brand recognition for a series of months to a year and don't mind operating at a lost. First and foremost Mark had a podcast with somebody from a PE firm that painted this picture. He said the thing about private equity investors is … well, think about it when you were a kid. And he says you get a bag of marbles from and you try to negotiate a deal with your buddy for the bag of marbles. The first thing you want to do is reach into that bag of marbles and take out all the chipped ones. You don't want to buy the chipped marbles. And then you want to focus on the best marbles. And so when looking at your four brands, two of them were really operating at a loss so my advice right away was let's take those out of the picture. Because when you're selling a business let's say at a three time multiple and you have two brands in the bag and they're both operating at let's say negative $10,000 in discretionary earnings; that's $20,000 times three that's $60,000 off the list price of your business if you go with the multiple of discretionary earnings valuation model which is what we do in marketplace valuations. So we had to pull those two out. And then we looked at what at the time was one of the larger brands of the two. We've got ColorIt that we've talked about. We've talked about it openly and you've done presentations all over the world on your email marketing campaigns with Klaviyo and ColorIt. But the other one, different space, and we had a challenge. See one of the things that we talk about all the time are the 4 pillars of sellable businesses; age, documentation, growth, transferability. And the big thing that we had a problem there was the transferability of that particular brand. Two of the SKUs that you had which were not the largest used by any stretch, you were reselling those, right? And you reached out to your vendor to confirm that you could transfer those and what did they say? Mike: They said no. Joe: Simple as that. So that takes away one of the pillars. It makes it more complicated. But again as you said you were in a bad mood that day that we talked. A lot of emotions in selling your business and as you say in the introduction that we did for ColorIt, you've been chasing too many rabbits. When you're doing that you're getting tired, exhausted, and pulled into many different directions and often going nowhere. So we ended up setting that one aside as well and focused only on ColorIt and went with that to launch. Before we get into the initial launch multiple and things that we found that were really amazing about it we found one more challenge or maybe two. You have one LLC with all four brands under one LLC and all four brands in one seller account. What have you done since our initial conversations back in late November early December to rectify that? Mike: Let me kind of set the stage just real quick of why we got there as well because it's interesting in business. There's two phenomena that is existing, first of all, I've been in business for 15 years so I kind of knew some of the hiccups and roadblocks we might get into down the road. But I had run multiple businesses in the past. So whenever you do something and you don't like it you tend to correct for that in another way in a future endeavor whether it's a business or in personal life. And the thought of like having … we actually have more than four things going through this LLC, there are other non e-commerce stuff and some other things as well. And the thought of having six or seven different tax returns and credit cards for each business and trying to figure out how we're going to separate employees or like the lease or back in software like Skubana or you know a UPS count; all these different things like having to have them all segmented out just was not appealing to me in any way shape or form. And I was more concerned about today than tomorrow as far as operating the business. And I also had this thought process of when I'm ready to get out of e-commerce I'm going to get rid of all of it once. I'm a pretty binary kind of guy like I'm either all in or not doing it. And I thought the day that … when it came that we would get out of e-commerce we would just sell that conglomerate. But life happens and business happens and like I said some of these risk factors changed and the reality was that we wanted to pivot and change our philosophy and our business plan pretty quickly. I equate this also to like when you want to pay taxes you want to have your business show the lowest amount of money. You're trying to figure out any expense you can have. That's really good for a tax but when you go to apply for a loan it better be showing lots of income. So it's like … it's a similar kind of phenomenon where like in one part it makes sense to do one thing but in another … on the other side, it makes sense to do another. So we were kind of at that spot where it was obvious that this was going to be a problem because the things that came up in the calls over and over again were really two things. Number one shared resources of employees or other resources which I understand the challenge there. And also the fact that everything's in this one Amazon account. And let me tell you man if there was anything I can go back and do differently it would be having multiple Amazon accounts at a much earlier stage. The challenge is Amazon doesn't make this easy. They won't allow you to just create multiple accounts first of all without getting permission. And in order to get permission, you have to have a separate company. You have to have a separate … either separate ownership structure, separate EIN, separate checking account, separate credit card. All this stuff has to be 100% separated out in order for them to grant you permission to create another Amazon account. So we are going through that now and I mean what a disaster. Like we're having to … we're trying to close within about six weeks of recording this. And to hand over the account at closing we have to have just Brand A which is going to be ColorIt and the Amazon account and Brand C or B, C, D have to be out of the Amazon account and in a new account and it has to happen as seamlessly as possible which is impossible because we're … we only have inventory in Amazon. All of our inventory is on Amazon. So we're having to recall some of it and relabel it, get it into the other account. And we keep a relatively [inaudible 00:16:34.1] amount of stuff in Amazon so it's not … looking on a SKU by SKU basis it isn't that big of a deal but because we're a high seven figure seller total we're recalling truckloads with the goods from Amazon. It's not going to be cheap and when you recall stuff it gets damaged a lot of times. The stuff shows up and looks used by the time that … you're shipping it in and it's getting … someone's handling it and putting it on the shelf and they got to go take it off the shelf put it in another box and crate and when you recall stuff it doesn't come back in the best of shape. So yeah I mean it's kind of a disaster all around but this is what we've had to do to get to where we are. And moving forward they all are all going to be in separate companies. So at any point when the time comes to put Business B up for sale, we'll have it all in one clear concise company; one account and we'll just pull the trigger and be done. Joe: You know I think you had said at one point you knew what to do and you had one plan and it was to sell the entity and all the brands within it at one time. And then we found three stumbling blocks. Two of them were operating at a loss because you are focused on organic traffic and brand building. And one where two of the vendors said: “yeah no, we like you, Mike, we don't know anybody else we're not going to do this deal with anyone else”. So you ran into challenges there. And you also said if you have to make those changes someday you'll do that. And all of a sudden you woke up and someday was here and we had an action that we wanted to take right away whereas the idea of I always say don't decide to sell which is eventually you do decide to sell but plan to sell. So my little slogan there doesn't actually work all that well. But seriously though I think the thing to do is to plan it out in advance as much as possible to make it strangely enough as easy and seamless as possible for the buyer. For that person that is going to put a million dollars of their life savings on the line or two or three or 100,000. The amount doesn't matter. It's a lot of money for the person that stroking the check or sending the wire. So that's the key thing. Mike: Can I just … I want to mention one other thing if you don't mind? [inaudible 00:18:48.4] this thing. Joe: Yeah. Mike: You're asking just kind of like some of the other things that kind went wrong and we could've done better. This is stuff that's often not talked about again in entrepreneurship but the reality is is that it would have been better just to have one brand and focus on it or maybe two rather than trying to do too many things at once which is a trap that a lot of entrepreneurs get caught in. Something I tell myself all the time, I even had it in writing on a blog post like eight years ago like I won't do that again; get into too many things. Entrepreneurs are different … there are different classes of entrepreneurs but the kind of entrepreneur that I am it's the squirrel syndrome. It's always exciting to do something new rather than what you're working on. I get bored really easily. To me, the business aspects are way less about the money than the personal enjoyment and excitement part of it. And oftentimes you end up with this … you chase rabbits both will get away saying that I use all the time. But I give that advice and don't follow it as well as I should. So that's another thing that you could really take away from this if your … the existing business you have is probably the best one that you have, the same type of thing with a car like the cheapest car that you'll ever have is the one that you own right now. You are then going on and buying a new one. Or any of these types of things can be applied to other aspects of your life as well. But if you are focused on one company like you typically have all your T's crossed and I's dotted and that's how I like to run my companies because I am a bit of a perfectionist. But as you spread your resources across multiple businesses things like to fall through the cracks that make things less attractive to a buyer. And the reality is is it's not as easy as it should be to just cookie cutter your business into another one. We had a really great podcast about this a year and a half ago. It was actually something we recorded live at E-commerce Fuel Live last year back in Gohana. So I just want to throw those things out as well as just other things that to be thinking about. As you're planning your exit you should be a lot of times it's … well, I want to get in this other thing or as you're growing it's really exciting and it's infectious and you want to keep on that path because it's fun to tell everybody how fast you're growing. And everyone pats you in the back and society makes things even worse because they're always like yeah man good job and everybody is like oh good job you only grew by 5% last year because that's just how we're all wired. Which the reality is that as Dave my partner always says is that revenues are vanity and profits are sanity. Joe: Yeah. Now I love that again this is … I want people to hear from you more than me. I say his stuff all the time and you're someone that's going through it right now and coaches thousands of people on a regular basis to improve their businesses and Dave as well. The other thing that is separating out the brands and separating out the LLC does for you the seller and the potential buyer is it casts a broader net of potential buyers. And the broader the net the more interest level there is going to be in the business. And the more interest level the more likely you're going to get an offer at or close to list price. And in this case we did not say SBA prequalified, technically you can take a business like yours and go through the process and have your accountant separate all those things out and certify it. It's not a full audit and you could try to go through the process and make it SBA prequalified. But in the time frame that you and I were trying to do this, you wanted to be under Letter Of Intent by January 31st. It didn't happen. We came close but we couldn't have gone through that process because that process would have taken six to eight weeks for your attorney to do it. And given the time of year, it might have taken longer because he's in full on tax preparation now. So that's the other thing that separating out your LLC's by brand will do for you is that when you wake up one day and you want to exit it's clean, it's simple and you can do that with a lot less work. And that work Mike we … it was a lot of work in preparing the listing for sale. In the Profit & Loss statements and then in that client interview everybody's heard about it … I told my wife when I sold my business I felt like I was working harder preparing the business for sale and going through the process of getting it sold than I was actually running it. And when I was running my own I was working about 20 hours a week running the business so that tells you what that workload is like. In terms of what we did, I want to talk a little bit about the launch process and talk about the multiples and some of the things we did but you did it just absolutely right spot on. We did go out a little early the right? We talked in late November early, early December and you had a goal and I wanted to help you achieve that goal. I'm human and I think that what I probably should have done in hindsight is said no, this is probably not the best approach. We went out in I think around the 10th of December, listed the business at a pretty strong multiple. It was at a four time multiple. And went out and said Look December is going to be great. Trust us these numbers will drop to a 3.5 once the December numbers are read. And the ultimate answer we got was cool, I think I'll just wait to see if that's true. So we've got a … I think we had a phone call, maybe we had one buyer seller conference call in the month of December and then you're a man of your word and you like to under promise and over deliver. And when December numbers came in they were up 80% year over year. Mike: Yeah. Joe: I've used this analogy with a lot of folks before and they've heard me say this again you can list something at a four time multiple and if it's growing 25% year over year consistently the buyer earns their money back in 2.7 years. I did not do the math on 80% and I won't but that really got people off the fence a little bit. We updated the P&L's, got the December P&L's and then we're relaunching I think on January 8th, 9th, or 10th, in and around there. And we actually dropped the price by $75,000 too. So the multiple didn't drop to just a 3.5 it dropped to a 3.2 multiple and we relaunched. And I think we had three or four phone calls out of the gate. The goal is to have three to five in the first 30 to 45 days and one acceptable offer. We did have just two offers in this case and one was just not there. We had two or three phone calls with them. One was interesting, right? I was traveling to Dallas so I'm on a conference call with Mike and the buyer and I'm actually going through TSA security on the conference call. And thankfully Mike can talk folks. So he was talking as I put my headset down and went through security. I picked it up on the other end and you were still talking. And you had a terrible cold. Mike: Yeah, that was a pretty embarrassing call. Joe: It was great though and the thing that you do so incredibly well is you instill confidence in the buyers. You're honest. People trust you. And it made them … anybody that had the opportunity to talk with you I think wanted to make an offer if they could pull it together. But we couldn't do an SBA buyer because of that commingling issue so we were focused primarily on cash buyers. Keep in mind though that not all SBA buyers don't have the cash. Many of them do they just prefer to make their money go further with an SBA loan. So I think we were both at ECF, that's E-commerce Fuel, at the event down in New Orleans and I drove you nuts a few times saying I think I may have an offer right? Did I—? Mike: It was so funny, you texted me at the opening party I think I have an offer and then you went to bed. I think like you didn't actually have the offer yet I just think I read the text a little long but … so I was like walking around the entire thing looking like anybody know where Joe Valley is? Like I want to know where Joe Valley is. Joe: Yeah, I think I heard somebody say Joe likes to go to bed early. He doesn't stay up late at these events. He's probably in bed. And that … I felt a little embarrassed there. I'm like okay I'm getting a reputation for going bed by nine. But we ended up not going under LOI— Mike: [inaudible 00:27:07.7] morning than I did. Joe: I think I probably did. I was really hopeful that we could go under LOI while at E-commerce Fuel because that would be a great feather in your cap and mine. We would be able to have a drink there and celebrate. But it didn't quite work. It took an extra … probably four or five days. But we had some challenges with the business. We ended up getting fairly close and I'll do the math as you answer this next question in terms of that asking price; that 3.2 multiple. But we had some challenges and the big challenge was something you talked about earlier. One of these big issues that you've got is you're taking all the profits from the business and putting it back into inventory. And when you have a business that's growing at the rate that yours was that's a lot of inventory. Can you talk about that a little bit in terms of the challenges that we had there? Mike: With inventory specifically in terms with ColorIt? Joe: Yes. Mike: Yeah. And this is something that we have worked really hard on in our business and we're very [inaudible 00:28:06.7] which is that you basically want as little inventory as humanly possible at all times. I mean you don't … there's a lot of reasons for this. If you have too much inventory when something goes wrong like you're stuck with a hot potato. That always sucks but probably more importantly especially when you're in this growth phase is cash flow is the most important thing. There's this saying that's been around forever which is cash is king and there's a reason for this; for every dollar that you have an excess inventory that's a dollar that you don't have in some new product … some new product launch or some other thing that can make you more money. And every inventory business is going to go through this. There is no inventory business I think on earth that … especially when it's newer and growing at this speed that can plan inventory perfectly all the time. Either you're going to err on the side of caution of not having too much inventory and be willing to run out of SKUs because of that. Or you're going to err on the side of caution of having too much inventory and err on the side of caution of never running out of a SKU. And for me, we went with the latter because in the early days of selling on Amazon we realize that when you run out of stuff it can be really detrimental. We had one SKU that we still are trying to recover from. It's a part of this issue here with this business sale we're now we have too much inventory because we could never get it to recover back to the point where it was before. So we try to in our inventory business turn our inventory three to four times a year which means that you should have no more than three to four months of inventory at any one time. And with ColorIt that was definitely not the case. So it was not the case. I mean there's a bunch of different exceptions that put things way further out than that but there was an old legacy book manufacturer that we work with that had very high MOQ's. So if we wanted to even sell the item we had to order a year worth of it at one time. And that was a decision that we made in Q2. We had a newer product that we just started selling and it was selling really well so we've ordered more of it and again at their MOQ so we have more than 4 months of inventory there. And so the bottom line was that of the 300 … actually it was $400,000 in total inventory that we have for ColorIt both from stuff that's in stock and things that we had already placed orders for that haven't shown up yet. There was about 100 … I don't have the numbers in front of me but $100,000-ish I think of inventory that that would take longer than 12 months to sell. And so for me because I've been on both sides of the fence as both a buyer and seller of businesses and I really believe living life like don't ask others or don't do what you want to do yourself, I realize that before we even start talking to the buyer that we probably have to make some sort of concession on the inventory. It just would be unrealistic to just be like no you're going to the inventory and too bad because I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that myself. The other thing that I don't like doing is like having someone pay me with my money. So that one thing I was steadfast about was that we're not going to take financing or delay the purchase price. I want an all cash offer for the for the purchase price but the inventory component I thought the right thing to do was to pretty quickly acquiesce and come into a middle ground with a buyer. So what we had agreed to do was, first of all, there was one SKU that I admit that just doesn't sell well. It was a bad buy on us. We just rid it off 100%. It's about $8,000 dollars. They can either … they were in a trash can if they want to transfer or they can keep it and do whatever they want with. There were a couple of SKUs that I kind of conceded to that were slower movers that I felt like was going to be kind of detrimental to their business to buy at with 24 months with the inventory at face value. So what we agreed to was we'll sell you anything that we think is going take longer than 12 months within that inventory at a 50% haircut. We'll just write off half of it and you can buy it for 50% off. So now you … yes, you carrying more inventory but you're buying it at a price that makes sense to carry it. And then the third group of SKUs were things that were basically like in this 12 to 18 month window, they weren't really that low for stock, and the biggest culprit of that was this new item that we're trending higher on. So I think ultimately and I convinced the buyer ultimately especially once the Christmas season comes they aren't going to have … they aren't going to actually have more than 12 months with the inventory. So we agreed that even though our forecast shows it's going to take more than 12 months to sell it's because we were using like a January sales number for that we weren't including sales growth in that forecast and we also weren't including what I believe that was going to happen in December which is December is about 3X any other month in our business. So ultimately we wrote off $40,000 with the inventory and agree to give them 12 months financing on the inventory at 5% interest which basically I think helps normalize that situation for them. And it's also something that I can tolerate as well. Joe: Yeah, and it happened and then we succeeded with it A. because of you; the likability and trust factor. But you have something that I preach again and that's when you've got an inventory based business you should have inventory aging reports. Sophisticated buyers are going to ask for them and they're going to want to see the inventory by SKU when you bought the inventory and how old it is, how many months you've got. As Mike said you want to turn your inventory every three to four months if you can but in his situation, it was 9, 12, 18 months in some rare instances. And so on that inventory report one of the key things that your buyer Matt said that made a difference for him in sealing the steel and getting it done was the inventory aging report and the notes that you put by each SKU and right there in one of them you said this is all inventory and it's not going to sell so we'll write this off. You just acquiesced on that 8,000. He didn't ask for it. You just put it in there because you knew it was the right thing to do. And then you went line by line on every other SKU and justified the 100% value or where you needed to discount. And let me just say for everybody listening, it is rare to need to take a note on inventory. It's rare to have to discount it. But when you've got that much you've got to do the right thing. What I don't want to happen here is for buyers to go “oh well hey Jackness took a note, I'm always going to ask for a note” because that's really, really the exception rather— Mike: Like I wouldn't do that with IceWraps for instance because there's … if we were to sell that we have four months with inventory. It's really clean and smooth. It's a more established business with fewer SKUs. It doesn't have a lot of the other things that cause us to have extra inventory. And like you said I mean just doing the right thing and being realistic of both sides. I mean this is what happens … like a lot of people when they're sellers they want to be way up here when they're buyers they want to be way now here and they're just like … they have this gap in which I think that just makes them not the best of human beings right? I mean you've got to be like more in the middle and realize the person that's buying and what they're thinking and what their [inaudible 00:35:24.6] is. And conversely when you're in the sell side be thinking about as well. It's not always just about you. There is another side of the coin. And I wish our politicians are covering this a little bit as well but it's just good business it's being a good human being. It's what makes deals get done. It's just doing the right thing and being fair about it; being equitable about it. I could … I just … I would feel like a dirty shyster if I have that guy by that one SKU that I know … like he doesn't know the business as well as I do. I know that one SKU [inaudible 00:36:00.9] it's been around here for two years. No matter how hard we try to sell it, we threw it at a 50% off sale or we even did a 75% off sale around Christmas to try to get rid of some of them. People just don't like that title. It was the one title that we made out of 25, it's a pretty good track record but one title out of 25 that was just this complete failure. I'm like how could you have someone take that? That's just basically like I'm stealing from them or trying to pull the rug over their head. And you know when they discover that later which they probably will in due diligence they're not going to trust you. Joe: Yeah, exactly I was just going to say that. They are going to discover in due diligence. And I'll tell you what for folks listening, we're going to run a little bit long on this episode. I'm going to lock this all up in one episode instead of doing two series here. The due diligence process would reveal anything like that so you need to get ahead of it. You have to be a good human being. This is a transaction that has to end with two satisfied individuals or entities at the closing table; that's the buyer and the seller. It's not winner takes all because the buyer is putting their life savings on the line again and they can walk away at any time. If you fake it, lie, cheat, or steal, it is going to be discovered in due diligence. More and more folks are hiring Centurica, your buyer is. That's Chris Yates' team. Chris owns the company called Centurica. C-E-N-T-U-R-I-C-A, they do due diligence for buyers. And honestly, as a broker, I love it when they join the team because they're working for the buyer. And I have yet to see a deal go sideways on any of the listings that we've put out. What they do more than anything else is they reinstill confidence that the numbers are right, that the seller presented information, and they create a roadmap to growth. They can point out certain things where there are flaws and sometimes it's a little scary but the buyer goes oh okay that's a flaw, I can fix that. I can make this better. And it's a path growth that we aren't able to do on the client interview which is great. One other thing I just want to say that we won't get into in great detail but without a question when you plan to sell instead of decide to sell, one of the things that you should always do, your partner Dave did it, is to take a look at your cost of goods sold. And if there's a possibility that you can renegotiate your cost of goods sold 12 months out in advance and reduce that cost of goods sold, for every $10,000.00 you save you're going to wind up with at least 2 ½ to 3 ½ times that depending upon your business and the trends and whatnot. Mike, you did it but you were able to renegotiate the cost of goods sold on just one of your SKU's and you placed an order for it so was locked in and loaded and the future sales would all be locked in at that lower cost of goods sold. And you sold through all of the other stuff at a higher price. So we were able to increase your seller's discretionary earnings by a total of $43,000 on that overall. And it was just because of that one SKU where you were able to renegotiate the cost of goods sold. In hindsight Mike do you wish you had done it on all of the other SKUs as well? Mike: Yeah I mean I don't think this is necessarily a selling your business thing more than this is just good business at that time. Joe: Yeah. Mike: What I've realized again after four plus years of importing stuff from China is that I wasn't as good of a negotiator as I thought I was. And I've always thought of myself as a really good negotiator in all aspects of anything that I do in business. And we had negotiated down from the original price they gave us but it still wasn't like the Chinese price. And when you get like a really good sourcing agent or you have someone that's more in tune with the local business and customs there they'll probably get a better price. And that's what happened for us. We met somebody … and these contacts are hard to find in business. We were out there doing it all ourselves like going to the Canton Fair, walking the floor finding manufacturers, and we did that because we're never really able to really find a good sourcing agent and didn't really know any other way to go about it. But because … mostly because of EcomCrew which is one of these things where the more you get back in life a lot of times the more you get rewarded. A lot of things we do in EcomCrew we don't get anything direct for our time for what we do. Like most of the stuff is just giving people free information and giving back to the community but what I found that happens in these types of situations is that makes relationships with people and the people you meet they know people that makes relationships with other people and eventually that path led to us finding this amazing sourcing agent that not only is he helping with ColorIt but everything else that we're doing now. And he was in our office here one day and we were actually sourcing something else for our tactical brand. I wasn't even looking to resource price I was looking to source new stuff. We were just chit chatting and we have this display up on our wall of all of our products and he is like what if I try to go source this for you? What do you pay for it if I can do better when you buy it from me? And I was like well man I'm also like not just about money. I'm really about relationships. I really like the factory I work with. We've been working with them for a while. It had to be like one hell of a cost savings for me. Like if it was I'm going to save you know a couple $1,000 here and there it's not worth it for me to blow that up. But he came back and was able to reduce the price of that particular thing from … well, he reduced it by 16% is what it was; which is massive. It's like this ridiculous cost savings. And at the same time the other factory as much as I … it's so funny like I'm really big on relationships and I was really concerned about them they actually copied our product during this process and even used our [inaudible 00:41:30.2] that we had paid for and everything and released our product to someone else. Sold our product to someone else. Which we then have to go spend money on a lawsuit to fight them which we got them to stop but … so between those two things we switched. Now the switch engine is going out and repricing our stuff and that's going to end up benefiting the buyer way more than it is for us on ColorIt which is fine. But I guess the end result is you should always be looking at price. Even when you think you have the best price you probably don't. There was a great … a presentation at ECF about this as well when it came to shipping rates. I don't know if you saw Craig Gentry's presentation on FedEx and UPS when he was just like if you think you have great rates you don't. Like there's … you can still do better because there's still another … they make you feel like you're getting the best deal ever because they're really good at negotiating. And it was similar with our products and we realize that we could be saving quite a bit. I mean 16% percent is a huge difference on COGS … I mean it ends up in your net profit. It's way more than 16% percent increase rate because it's going to be SKUed. It makes you … you could just throw money around the bottom line. So yeah I mean it was massive and the timing was great because we did get some benefit. But yes I wish that we had time to go through and renegotiate all those SKUs for sure. Joe: Yeah and I think you said it best. It's just good business. It makes smart business sense. Not necessarily sorry for the exit planning and the eventual exit and sale of your business. Can you say one more time what Dave always says it's not profit it's—? Mike: Yes. Revenues are vanity and profits are sanity. Joe: Perfect. Mike: I'm sorry I'm going to go off on a tangent; another tangent. [Inaudible 00:43:05.7] I got you and just like people are like counting their chest. Like I'm a seven figure seller and well I'm an eight figure seller and I sold this stuff … no one ever goes around saying well I sold 10 million dollars of stuff last year but I actually lost money. I mean there are plenty of businesses out there that are like that. It's very easy to get in that trap because it's actually pretty easy to sell stuff online. You can just spend way too much money on advertising and you can sell stuff but the profit is what really actually matters. Joe: Absolutely and that's where these marketplace valuations are. It's on the profits so discretionary earnings. All right so look I want to read one more thing and I'm going to wrap it up. I've said that you the seller, in this case, you Mike makes a huge difference in the saleability if that's a word, of your business. How you act prior to selling the business, how you manage your business, and how you represent yourself all throughout makes an enormous difference. And the way that you handled yourself on the client interview, on the recorded interview that we did as part of the package, on the conference calls with buyers, in the inventory challenges that we had, in writing those notes there, and just acquiescing on that $8,000 of inventory that you knew was no good; it all made the difference and it's why we're under Letter Of Intent. I did the math. We're actually under Letter Of Intent at 96% of the list price of the business. Again the inventory we're doing on a note which we don't love but sometimes you have to do that. I want to just read an e-mail that you sent to Matt, your buyer within a couple of hours of when we were under Letter Of Intent to just reemphasize what's important and the way that a buyer should treat their sellers … or seller should treat their buyer. So here we go. I feel like I'm in second grade standing up and reading this— Mike: I was not planning on this being read but it's okay read it. Go on. Joe: It says, Matt … his first name is Matt we're not going to say what his last name is. I just received the signed LOI from you and wanted to take a minute to thank you for putting your faith in me and my love child ColorIt. It's been one heck of a ride but I'm ready to pass off the baton and experience a year or two of not having too much on my plate. Of course, I realize there is still a lot to accomplish to get to the finish line but I wanted to say cheers. With the growth rate of ColorIt along with some of the other fundamentals, I'm convinced this will be your best purchase to date. My goal is to make sure that it becomes a reality for you as we progress through the transition. I look forward to working with you in that regard over the next few months. Mike. Guys, that is the way to transact business. It's just the right thing to do and it feels good. And I can tell you [inaudible 00:45:45.4] 80% year over year growth in December and didn't even mention it 74% year over year growth in January. It made a huge difference and Matt making an offer at 96% of the list price. But this kind of thing, the way Mike handled himself as a professional, as a good human being in this entire process sealed the deal ultimately. So Mike, thank you. I appreciate the way that it's gone so far. I think what we'll do is have a follow up episode to talk about due diligence and the training and transition and how the transaction wound up at the end of the process with this closing that we've got if you wanted to come back on. Mike: Yeah. Can I say one thing about the letter that I wrote? Joe: Of course. Mike: Since you took the time to read it I just … I got to preach because I've been on both sides of these deals. There have been times where I've been the buyer and at that moment that you sign the LOI there's always this anxiety, right? Where you like man I'm about to jump into this thing and you don't necessarily know what you're getting … everything that you're getting yourself into. And I just wanted to let the guy know that first of all I appreciate him again like it was sincere like I appreciate him … this was like now the sales person parts over like I'm not trying to sell him anything. It's always awkward when you're saying stuff in the call part of it. It almost sounds manufactured even though I don't do that but I'm sure to them it comes off as like this guy is probably just saying this to get me to write a check. But it's done. The finish line is there from that perspective I just … and I do want it to be a success story. I want the guy to buy it and look back at these years later and feel like he made the right decision. And yeah that was really all; just kind of being sincere about it. And I think all too often again people are more way about themselves they'd be all high fiving everybody and saying that we got an LOI and celebrating their success more than thinking about what this guy's about to endeavor in. And I think that's important. Joe: I appreciate that and the last thing I'll say is what I said to everyone which is we're under Letter Of Intent. There's no guarantee. Mike: You're right; the money is not in the bank yet for sure. Joe: It's not on the bank yet. So let's have another killer month in February. We'll get through all of this. Due diligence is very detailed but again they've got Centurica doing it for them. We've got to do a lot of work but we know it would be done right. And that emotion will be left out of it as much as possible and it'd be math and logic and we'll get through it. And then we'll have you back on the podcast to maybe high five. And maybe we'll get the buyer Matt on it as well. Mike: Yeah, I think it'll be cool to have him and come join us and talk about both sides. Joe: Alright, I'm looking forward to it Mike. You're a good man I'm glad to do business with you. I look forward to hearing you back on the podcast. Mike: Thanks, Joe.   Links and Resources: ColorIt.com Mike's Podcast Email Mike Call Mike 703-216-3225      

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: OK, guys we're going to talk about Halloween. So, what do you think about Halloween?Adrienne: I actually like it. It's a fun holiday for kids especially because you get to dress up in costumes and you get lots of candy if you go trick-or-treating. I have a lot of good memories. of Halloween growing up.Todd: OK, what is trick-or-treating? Why do you trick-or-treat?Adrienne: Trick-or-treat is when you go, you dress up in your costume on Halloween and you go door-to-door ringing doorbells, knocking on doors. One person comes to the door, you say, "Trick-or-treat" and usually these days they give you a treat which is candy or apples or something like that but in the older days, you could, if they didn't give you a treat, then you could play a trick on them or they could play a trick on you, instead of giving you a treat, something like that.Mike: I always thought that it was they performed, the person at the door performed some kind of trick for the kids because they didn't have candy to give, but I could be wrong.Adrienne: Yeah, I don't know exactly. It's one of those three options.Todd: Yeah, I think it's you play a trick on them.Mike: Oh, reallyTodd: You throw trash against their house.Adrienne: Toilet paper their.Todd: Toilet paper, eggs,Mike: Egg their window.Todd: Dog poohs in the paper bag on fire. On fire!Adrienne: Yuck.Todd: Yeah, that's gross. So, Mike, you're from Canada, so do you have Halloween American-style in Canada? Do you celebrate trick-or-treating? Do you go trick-or-treating?Mike: Oh, yeah, I think it is the same as in the U.S. I believe it is a little bit different in Europe, maybe. They don't have the same kind of traditions but, yeah, exactly the same as in the U.S. We watched all the Snoopy, Charlie Brown Halloween kind of things, just like everybody....Todd: OK. That's good. I'm glad because now we can diverge. What was, what were your costumes when you were younger?Adrienne: Ah, I had so many. My mom was a seamstress so she used to make a lot of my costumes. I designed them and she would make them for me and my sister so one year I was Batgirl, another year I was Wonder Woman. Another year I was Princess Lea from Star Wars, I was a rainbow and a clown and a cat, and a witch and everything, basically that you're supposed to be for Halloween I was.Todd: A lot of heroines in there.Adrienne: Of course. Strong women!Todd: Mike, how about you?Mike: I was a goat boy.Todd: Goat boy!Mike: I was always a goat boy because there...Todd: Every year?Mike: Yeah, we, I couldn't afford to get a decent costume every year.Todd: So how were you goat boy? What did you look like?Adrienne: Where did you get goat boy from?Mike: They just put some sort of, they put a lot of trash on me, and forced me to eat a can. It's OK. I got lots of candy but then the other kids would beat me up and steal it from me. That's OK.Adrienne: That's the saddest thing I've ever heard.Mike: Well, you know. That's all right. It toughened me up when I got older.

As the Founder of InForm Fitness' Power-of-10 Workout, Adam Zickerman makes the claim every day that InForm Fitness offers the safest, most efficient strength training program around. But Adam has a confession for InForm Nation. Adam suffered an injury while exercising that resulted in acute, knock-you-on-your-butt, back muscle spasms. You can imagine Adam's dilemma as to whether or not he should fess up or cover up his recent injury.Hear the whole story in Episode 23 beginning with the surgery he experienced as a child, the details of his injury, and how he seems to have found a cure for his lifelong ailment.Click this link to read Adam's story at INFORM INSIGHTS: https://informfitness.com/back-spasms-exercise/Pick up Adam's Zickerman's book, Power of 10: The Once-a-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution.  You can buy it in Amazon by  clicking here: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTenTo find an Inform Fitness location nearest you to give this workout a try, please visit www.InformFitness.com.  At the time of this recording we have locations in Manhattan, Port Washington, Denville, Burbank, Boulder, Leesburg and Resten.If you'd like to ask Adam, Mike or Sheila a question or have a comment regarding the Power of 10. Send us an email or record a voice memo on your phone and send it to podcast@informfitness.com. Join Inform Nation and call the show with a comment or question.  The number is 888-983-5020, Ext. 3. For information regarding the production of your own podcast just like The Inform Fitness Podcast, please email Tim Edwards at tim@InBoundPodcasting.comThe complete transcriptions for this episode is below:Tim: And we're back, InForm Nation! Glad you're doing us once again here for episode 23, on the InForm Fitness Podcast. Twenty minutes with Adam Zickerman and friends. For those  joining us for the very first time, let's go around the horn and introduce everybody. I'm Tim Edwards with the InBound Podcasting Network, and a client of InForm Fitness, and joining me here in person at the InBound Studio is co-owner and general manager of the Burbank InForm Fitness location, Sheila Melody. Sheila, nice to see you three dimensionally instead of 2D via Skype nowadays, thanks for joining me.Sheila: Yeah, this is fun!Tim: And still in boring old 2D through the magic of Skype is general manager of the Manhattan location, Mike Rogers, and the founder of InForm Fitness, New York Times bestselling author, Power of Ten: The Once a Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution, also affectionally known as the guru, Adam Zickerman. What's up fellas?Adam: Hey.Mike: I've never called him the guru.Tim: No, ever? Mike: I'm going to start calling you that now, matter of fact, the guru.Adam: Mike was booking some guests on one of our podcast episodes, in his letters he writes, and he refers to me as his boss. I meant to talk to Mike about that, saying boss. Refer to me as your — I don't know — Tim: Your superior. The boss, the founder, Adam.Adam: Your colleague and the founder of InForm Fitness. Mike: You're going to go there, okay. You're going to wish I said boss next time.Tim: Alright well the boss has been having problems with his back, or at least he has in the past, and here in episode 23, we're going to refer back to a blog post of yours Adam from June of last year, 2016: Back Spasms From Exercise, which we'll have a link to in the show notes of course if you'd like to read them. In the blog post Adam, you offer up a confession, and you mention a back injury that you suffered as a kid. Now we'll get to that confession in just a moment, but let's start with the injury you suffered; what caused the injury, back many, many decades ago?Adam: Yeah I was a teenager, and I don't know exactly what caused the injury. I think it was a combination of sports and being active, but I also had this weird obsession about jumping staircases, and when I think back on my childhood life, I really think that my back injury was from trying to jump down ten stairs or fifteen stairs. I started to keep increasing the amounts of stairs I could jump.Tim: I did the same stuff, I really did.Mike: You probably hit your head one time and that's why your memory is —Adam: I do remember where it manifested itself. It could have been the stairs — when the back problem happened, I didn't feel it right away. It was during actually a basketball game, I was a point guard, and up until that point I was a pretty good point guard. At this particular game, I couldn't cut to my left. There was no pain, I was just very slow cutting to the left, and the ball kept getting stolen from me at mid court, and my father who was watching the game was like, and my coach and everybody was like, that's very unusual for Adam to get the ball just taken from him like that, every time he brings the ball up. It was that night that all of the sudden the back pain started. Now I've been saying for years that I think it was the basketball game that hurt my back, but very likely it was probably something before that that led up to it, and I'm thinking that crazy idea I had about jumping off of staircases.Tim: So 35, 40 years ago is when this probably began. Adam: Yeah, the symptoms were numbness in my right leg, radiating down my leg. I couldn't bend at all, I couldn't bend at my waist at all. I couldn't sit for more then a couple of minutes without the pain, I had to stand or lie down.Tim: As a kid.Adam: I was a kid, and the back of my leg was in a lot of pain and numb at the same time, my calf was numb. To this day, there is slight numbness to my slight calf compared to my left calf. I can feel some sensation, but it's definitely dulled; to this day, it's never recovered, so there's probably a little bit of nerve damage back then.Mike: So did you go to the doctor and find out what exactly happened?Adam: So we go to a doctor and remember I'm eleven, and when you have these symptoms as an adult, right away they say let's look at the back, but as a child, the last thing they were thinking about was a nerve compression of a herniated disc. So they were looking for everything else, including tumors of the spine. So there was a point there where I was meeting with oncologists and getting tests at NYU at New York University Medical Center. The tests for everything but a herniated disc, and when they eliminated all those things, they said could this kid have a herniated disc, and they performed a procedure called a myelogram. Which is a crazy procedure where they inject a dye into your spinal column, and they turn you upside down on a table, literally upside down, and let the dye kind of go down the spine or really up the spine, and when they see the fluid, this dye that they inject into your spinal column. When they see that dye deviate to the right or the left, that's where the herniation is, and that's how they were able to  determine disc herniations back in the day, in the 70s. They still do that procedure but much less so now. So a myelogram is more or less an archaic methodology now, MRIs have pretty much taken over that. So when they saw the fact that I had a disc herniation, they were like holy cow, and I had surgery. I had surgery by a neurosurgeon, the surgery is called a laminectomy, and in part of the spine vertebrae, there's something called lamina, and the lamina was removed to pretty much reduce the pressure that was being pushed against it by the disc, pushing a nerve into the lamina. So they took away the lamina, no more pressure against the nerve, and the pain went away, but there was a compromise there. There was a structural compromise done when you remove structure from your vertebrae. So ever since that surgery, I've been able to bend and I've been able to play all my sports, and I've lived a fairly normal life. However, probably ten years into post surgery, I would start getting back spasms. These horrible, horrible, bring you down to your knees, can't move, and if you move, you go into another spasm. It's almost like being hooked up to a car battery and every time — you sit and you're kidnapped, and every time you say something wrong, they hit the switch and you're shocked. That's what a back spasm is, where there is sometimes I would be suffering spasms and if I tried to move out of my position, I would go right back into position. It was just nonstop spasm after spasm after spasm, and this can go on for hours. They're excruciating, it's literally like being shocked.Sheila: It sounds like torture.Adam: It's very painful.Tim: And this is something you experienced in your twenties now? These back spasms.Adam: I've been experiencing those from my twenties up until now. Mike: I've seen Adam over the years about half a dozen times, during the workday, they kind of come out of nowhere. I don't know if he worked out earlier that day or whatever, but I've seen him have to go down to the ground and put a tennis ball, just lay down on a tennis ball and stuff like that. Adam: Those are for the good ones. Sometimes they got so bad that I would literally get nauseated and want to vomit, and it's just relentless, it doesn't go away. The only thing that makes it better is time. A couple days on my back, it finally starts to subside. I also take Flexeril, which is a muscle relaxant, and that seems to take the edge off when things are really bad. Alright so that's the history.Tim: Let's fast forward a few years now, right, because Adam, let's jump to the confession now. I'll tell you, if I'm listening to this and I'm hearing you, Adam Zickerman, the founder of InForm Fitness, suffering from back spasms, my first question honestly is, well did that happen as a result of high-intensity strength training? Adam: No, definitely not. Although I've tweaked it during workouts, the confession that you're referring to, this blog that I wrote, I was doing leg press, and I was pushing myself. I set a new weight, it was a new seat setting that put a little bit more strain on my back apparently. I was training myself and probably my thought went somewhere else, and my hips lifted a little bit, and all they have to do is lift a millimeter, and bam, I felt something. It wasn't the spasm, but I felt something, I was like oh boy. Usually, you feel something and it just progressively gets worse, and I know I'm in for it. Sometimes you feel that pain, I've been dealing with this for so long in my life, you feel that initial pain and you say to yourself, okay, five more hours from now, I'm going to be on my back. I've got to get my ass home, put that ice pack on, and hope for the best. Of course, it comes, it does come, and it came this last time, and this was less than a year ago.Tim: I remember we recording some podcasts last year, and you were really struggling with your back during one of those episodes that we had. So this happened, that's your confession Adam, in your blog post was —Adam: The confession is here I am, exercises quote unquote guru with a bad back. It's like being an obese nutritionist or something.Mike: They're out there.Adam: I interviewed one, not to change the subject, but somebody came looking for — making some nutrition referrals and she was overweight, I was like come on. Tim: So here you are, again like we said, founder of InForm Fitness, on one of your machines. You just lost focus, and maybe one of the mistakes you made I guess was training yourself, and someone not watching you as closely as all of the trainers at InForm Fitness do with their clients, and this happened. So there's that confession. So since this incident Adam that you mentioned in your blog post, have you had any back spasms?Adam: No I haven't, and I think there are a couple of reasons for it. One reason we'll talk about now, and another reason we'll talk about in another episode of our podcast.Mike: Real quick Adam, is this the longest period you've gone without a back spasm?Adam: This is — I'm approaching the longest period I've gone without a back spasm right now. The last five years, I've been getting about maybe two or three back spasms a year, now it's been about a year since I had one. When I was in my twenties, I only got one a year. The difference between when I was in my twenties and recently was they came more often, and they healed a lot slower when I got older. When I was in my twenties and thirties, I would get one, a couple of days later, back to new. Now, been lingering, my wife has been saying, wow Adam, it just seems like your back is always hurting now, always crooked. Even when I wasn't in spasm, my posture was just off, and there was always this like — I would say, I would give it a 4/10 in terms of pain, just ongoing. So I was always feeling something in my back at a level four, spasms are a ten plus. When I'm about to go into spasm, sometimes there's an eight and seven, and I can work. I can go into work with an eight and deal with it, and I kept saying this is muscular, this is neuromuscular, this is not structural. I know my body, I know an MRI is going to be what they say in medicine as remarkable, it's not going to show much of anything, but of course, because they were lasting longer and becoming more frequent, I was like what do I have to do lose? Go get an MRI, what's the big deal? So I got it, and I got it about a year ago, and it showed some slight herniations, grade one vertebrate slippage, but there are MRIs out there that show a lot worse, and the patient is asymptomatic and they don't have any back problems. And there are people that don't show anything that have severe back problems, so my MRI was basically unremarkable, and it didn't indicate anything major that would be causing all of these spasms, let's put it that way. So I was frustrated, I trained people day in and day out with safe exercise, and I strengthened their lower back, and there's that expression that cobblers' children don't have any shoes. I have to — here's another confession, I was not doing my back exercises that I keep imploring my patients or clients to do, to do that regular back extension, back strengthening exercise, and I wasn't doing any follow up type of work like pelvic tilts, hip thrusts, things that could create movement of that hip and lower back area. I was working all the time, I was sitting, I was commuting long commutes, and I really wasn't doing what I thought I should be doing. I just couldn't take it anymore, after the MRI came back and showed that there was nothing to really write home about, I said you know what, I've just got to start taking care of myself. I was doing all of the major exercises, the leg presses and the chest presses and all of the things that guys like to do, but I was ignoring the lower back. So I've been doing that regularly now, absolutely regularly for the last year, and I have to say especially in the last four or five months, I am, well, for the first time since I was in my twenties, I can say that I don't feel my back anymore. I don't feel that thing there that's been following me around like a black cloud. I have literally no pain in my lower back, and it hasn't been this way for quite a while now, knock on wood, because it can come at any time, but I don't remember the last time that I could say that I have no pain in my lower back.Sheila: And would you say consistently?Adam: I was at a three or four for months at a time, I can keep it at a three or four. The one long airplane ride or car ride and I'm back to a five and six, or funny enough, when I would do sports, it would feel better. So there's something to that movement that would make it feel better. I remember going to skiing and thinking to myself, I don't know if this is a good idea dude. I know you love skiing, but maybe it's time to hang up the bindings, and well I went, and I'm telling you, it felt batter. My back would feel better after something like that, or long bike rides, my back would feel better. So there was something to that movement, and all these things together made me say let's take care of your back finally. Get on that lower back extension machine on a regular basis, do your pelvic tilts. Ice, I would ice my back on a regular basis. I would get massages on a regular basis, and now here I am.Sheila: You say on a regular basis, are you talking weekly, weekly you're doing a routine that supports your back?Adam: Yes, weekly and daily. The weekly thing is the high intense, lower back extensions. The daily is the icing it once a day for twenty minutes or so. I would do pelvic tilts, I would do some light stretches, and I would also on a weekly basis, I'd have some manual therapy. Some deep tissue massage, and the combination thereof — I've been doing a lot of things, so it's hard to know which one of those things is the answer. It's probably the combination, and the reason we're doing this podcast, this episode of the podcast right now is because I think I'm onto something.Tim: You see a very dramatic change.Adam: Mike has also been doing a lot of this stuff recently with his patients or clients.Mike: The thing is, I think all around health, this is from my experience and I've talked to chiropractors, physical therapists, orthopedists, and we've read lots of books on the matter, and I've taken other courses in fitness, and what I've learned is there is our weekly exercise that we need to do for our strength, and we've found a nice, safe, efficient way of doing that, but Adam mentioned some daily exercises, and I've prescribed very, very simple little things that take about five minutes on a daily basis, and people who are compliant to these little things — and these are just mobility exercises, activation of the muscles, nothing intense at all, and they involve little pelvic tilts. Whether you're laying down on your back or you can be on all fours, like a child pose, bird, dog, some little glute bridge leg raises type of things, and very light stretches of the hamstrings and calves, and I've found unbelievable results from people, in addition to their workouts that they come for once a week. The ones that are compliant, doing it three, four or more times a week, within two weeks they're feeling a lot better. So I think the formula involves some small daily exercises as well.Tim: In addition to that Mike too, I'll just speak for myself. I had some lower back issues and when I first started at InForm Fitness, the leg press was really giving me some problems, and Anne Kirkland, one of the trainers at the Burbank location, went in and made some adjustments to how I was sitting in the leg press. She put something behind my back I believe.Sheila: A lumbar pad. Anne has additional certification in low back.Tim: And immediately fixed whatever issues I was having with the leg press, so you do the same thing there I'm sure as well in New York.Mike: I'm sorry to interrupt — if you're in the wrong position, things are not going to be good no matter where you are, and I think that's the benefit to being here is it's one on one, it's slow motion. We have time to sort of assess and see where we are, first of all, to make sure that the seat position is correct, and then to monitor your form throughout the set.Tim: That's right, and that's what happened to me as I mentioned a few moments ago. I was on the leg press, having a few issues with my back, just a few minor adjustments from my trainer and the back pain went away. Hey guys, as you can tell by the music, our twenty minutes allotted for this episode is up, so it's time for us to wrap it up. It also means that for you, on the other side of the speakers, if you began your high-intensity strength training workout at an InForm Fitness when we began this episode, you too, would be wrapping it up. For the entire week, now you'll be wiped out, but you'll be done, and you can begin enjoying your rest and recovery, to prepare for next week's workout. We'll do the same here at the InForm Fitness Podcast, we are going to continue our talk regarding back pain. We'll also be joined by Dr. Louis Fierro, a chiropractor who works with Adam in the InForm Fitness Active Rehabilitation program. Dr. Lou will offer up his suggestions and solutions for those experiencing back pain of their own, plus we'll dive into the psychological aspects of a negative diagnosis, such as a back problem, and how that alone can prolong an illness or an injury. We'll share some interesting data that supports the notion that a simple attitude adjustment can change the course of your rehabilitation.If you'd like to give this workout a try for yourself, to find an InForm Fitness location nearest you, just visit informfitness.com. At the time of this recording, we have locations in Manhattan, Port Washington, Denville, Burbank, Boulder, Leesburg, and Reston. If you're not near an InForm Fitness location, you can always pick up Adam's book: Power of Ten, the Once a Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution. Included in Adam's book are several exercises that support this protocol, that you can actually perform on your own at a gym nearest you.Hey we have a lot planned here at the InForm Fitness Podcast that we can't wait to share with you. In the next few weeks, we'll be speaking with Gretchen Rubin from the award winning Happier podcast. We'll also be talking to Dr. Martin Gibala, author of the One Minute Workout, and in another episode, Adam will be discussing a diet plan that, in his words, has changed his life, and of course as I mentioned earlier, chiropractor Dr. Lou Fierro joins us next week. For Sheila Melody, Mike Rogers, and Adam Zickerman of InForm Fitness, I'm Tim Edwards, with the InBound Podcasting Network.

While you certainly can just listen to this interview with Mike Robertson, I encourage you to watch it Mike Robertson on YouTube so you can see for yourself the magic Mike does with PowerPoint and Keynote.  Show notes from Is This Mike On? with Mike Robertson Phil: I met Mike Robertson at an NSA conference 2 years ago - and he’s a magician with PowerPoint (and Keynote) too! I knew once I launched my podcast I had to have him on the show, and you'll want to watch the video on YouTube to see just what I'm talking about.  Phil: So Mike – how did you get started with these amazing presentations?  Mike: Sometimes our greatest gift are right in front of us and we don’t even see them!!  Let’s start with PowerPoint magic!   I was a graphic designer for 20 years and before that I was into magic! I’ve always had this performance urge.  Five years ago, I wasn’t even using slides or even PowerPoint! I started delving into the programs.   Now, I get hired quite a bit to create slides for speakers.  I look at the slides as a blank canvas and what is going to enthrall the audience.  It looks like an image… like an abstract, an image of modern that you would see in a modern hotel. Only it’s a brick. At a local gas station that has been banged into by so many different doors and as I looked at this image.  As we speakers, we are always looking for stories, looking for the story to tell. And for this one I came up with two.  I came up with you are going to get knocked and bumped around and banged throughout life and as long as you stay the course things are going to be ok.  The 2nd and more profound no matter where you go you are are always going to leave a part of yourself behind leave an impression behind what are you leaving behind damage scrapes beauty artistic.  That shows you the power of something that lasts, something you can do with art.  Phil: Talk to us about the process… don’t give us all the magic. Do you have to buy another program?  Mike: Everyone has PowerPoint, most people don’t take the time to delve into, they just use the templates. It’s like having a piano and using it to set your drink on!  I take the time play around and experiment around with the sliders and confetti effects and scenes. A lot of it is knowing the capabilities of the programs.    Fonts can make a huge difference on your slide, there is a perfect font for everything but no font is perfect for everything.  Learning to think more creatively or artistically vs a whiteboard or chalkboard.  Resizing your pictures instead of just stretching  Every slide you put up is a chance to reinforce your brand  Phil: Do you think many miss the boat with the brand is because they don’t know or they don't care?  Mike: They don’t know.  I hear most people gasp. We tend to forget our audience has just seen the most advanced of all graphics. The slide can become your partner or sidekick in your presentation, but you need to think of it differently. You need to stretch the boundaries.  Phil: Talk to us about magic! How did you get interested in magic?  Mike: I got a magic kit as a kid and then I started checking out books from the library and my dad used to go the convention center in Dallas and there was a magic store next door and he would bring me a new magic trick each year and I would love to stand in front of family and friends and perform. And then at 13 or 14 playing the guitar and the girls loved that and i was a music guy for many years and i loved playing and performing. After all of the things i've dabbled in this is the think i;ve landed in because it satisfies all those urges and lets me use all those skills that i've acquired all the years. We don’t often recognize our own gifts. We miss our own gifts because  they are part of our own DNA. I look for new ways to channel and new directions. You have to find your niche and expand it yourself.   Phil: How can people get started on finding their own gifts?  Mike: Ask your friends/family. Find what you are good and find a way to use that people aren’t using it, that takes you on your own path.  Connect with Mike Robertson and see more of his presentation magic  Watch this episode on YouTube to see the cool things you heard us talk about Visit IsThisMikeOn.com to get in touch with Mike Robertson     

Happy Halloween. This week we listen to an older recording of Mike and Adrienne talking about Halloween. Go to elllo.org for the complete lesson. Transcript of the Conversation: Todd: OK, guys we're going to talk about Halloween. So, what do you think about Halloween? Adrienne: I actually like it. It's a fun holiday for kids especially because you get to dress up in costumes and you get lots of candy if you go trick-or-treating. I have a lot of good memories. of Halloween growing up. Todd: OK, what is trick-or-treating? Why do you trick-or-treat? Adrienne: Trick-or-treat is when you go, you dress up in your costume on Halloween and you go door-to-door ringing doorbells, knocking on doors. One person comes to the door, you say, "Trick-or-treat" and usually these days they give you a treat which is candy or apples or something like that but in the older days, you could, if they didn't give you a treat, then you could play a trick on them or they could play a trick on you, instead of giving you a treat, something like that. Mike: I always thought that it was they performed, the person at the door performed some kind of trick for the kids because they didn't have candy to give, but I could be wrong. Adrienne: Yeah, I don't know exactly. It's one of those three options. Todd: Yeah, I think it's you play a trick on them. Mike: Oh, really Todd: You throw trash against their house. Adrienne: Toilet paper their. Todd: Toilet paper, eggs, Mike: Egg their window. Todd: Dog pooh in the paper bag on fire. On fire! Adrienne: Yuck. Todd: Yeah, that's gross. So, Mike, you're from Canada, so do you have Halloween American-style in Canada? Do you celebrate trick-or-treating? Do you do trick-or-treating? Mike: Oh, yeah, I think it is the same as in the U.S. I believe it is a little bit different in Europe, maybe. They don't have the same kind of traditions but, yeah, exactly the same as in the U.S. We watched all the Snoopy, Charlie Brown Halloween kind of things, just like everybody.... Todd: OK. That's good. I'm glad because now we can diverge. What was, what were your costumes when you were younger? Adrienne: Ah, I had so many. My mom was a seamstress so she used to make a lot of my costumes. I designed them and she would make them for me and my sister so one year I was bat girl, another year I was Wonder Woman. Another year I was Princess Lea from Star Wars, I was a rainbow and a clown and a cat, and a witch and everything, basically that you're supposed to be for Halloween I was. Todd: A lot of heroines in there. Adrienne: Of course. Strong women! Todd: Mike, how about you? Mike: I was goat boy. Todd: Goat boy! Mike: I was always goat boy because there... Todd: Every year? Mike: Yeah, we, I couldn't afford to get a decent costume every year. Todd: So how were you goat boy? What did you look like? Adrienne: Where did you get goat boy from? Mike: They just put some sort of, they put a lot of trash on me, and forced me to eat a can. It's OK.  I got lots of candy but then the other kids would beat me up and steal it from me. That's OK. Adrienne: That's the saddest thing I've ever heard. Mike: Well, you know. That's all right. It toughened me up when I got older.

Recorded 7/22/12. Mike, Cat and Paul wish someone very special a happy birthday! (MosJef not Mike) They go through some dude or douchbags, talk to an old friend and Cat decides to bum out the whole audience. Special thanks to Nicky from GA for a great intro to the show) Join us in the chat and call in on our next show, Sunday, August 5th LIVE at 7pm EST on the Mediocre Radio Network! Please leave us some 5 star reviews on itunes. Thank You, Come Again! Our Voicemail line: 206-888-6052. Our Live Show line: 484-334-2072. Twitter - @thamike | @oopodcast | @spp444 Streaming provided by http://www.mediocreradionetwork.com Contact info can be found at http://www.obviouslyoblivious.com