Podcasts about what i'd

Zach sits down with activist Tema Okun, author of "The Emperor Has No Clothes: Teaching About Race And Racism To People Who Don't Want To Know," to have a chat geared around white supremacy culture at work. She and Zach take a deep dive into a piece she wrote on the subject, dissecting several of the named characteristics present in the document. Check out the show notes to reference the piece and to find out more about her work!Connect with Tema on Twitter.Read her "White Supremacy Culture" piece by clicking here.Interested in her book, "The Emperor Has No Clothes?" Check it out on Amazon.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and, you know, we continue to live in really extraordinary times for some people. Frankly, these times have been this way for a while for many of us, but we have this, like, seemingly [?] to awareness and consciousness, and so I want to respect that. I want to respect where we are. And, you know, we've actually shifted up our interview schedule, and we're having more and more pointed conversations about the reality of white supremacy. So you've probably noticed a few episodes, and we're gonna continue to do that. You know, I shared on Twitter a couple days ago that, like, I think my baseline is just much angrier these days, and I'm at peace with that. And so with that all being said, you know, we have conversations on Living Corporate that center marginalized voices at work. We do that by engaging thought leaders from across the spectrum to really have just authentic discussions. Today we have a phenomenal guest, just like we do every single week, but it makes no less true that we have a great guest today, Dr. Tema Okun. Tema has spent many years working for the social justice community. For over 10 of those years she worked in partnership with the late and beloved Kenneth Jones as part of the Change [?] Training Group and now facilitates long-term anti-racism, anti-oppression work as a member of The DR Works Collaborative. She is a skilled [?] facilitator, bringing both an anti-racist lens and commitment to supporting personal growth and development within the context of institutional and community mission. She holds a BA from Oberland College, a Masters in Adult Education from NC State University, a doctorate at NC Greensboro, and is on the faculty of the educational leadership department at the National Louis University in Chicago. She is active in Middle East peace and justice work with Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions USA. Dr. Okun, how are you?Tema: I'm great, and I want to apologize upfront because some of those biographical facts are no longer true. I left the faculty of NLU several years ago, and I'm now active with the Jewish [Voice?] for Peace. Just to update everybody so that they don't think you or I are lying about [?].Zach: Thank you for correcting me, I appreciate that. So, you know, you've been in this work for quite a while. Like, we talked some months ago actually before my daughter was born, and--Tema: Oh, you have a beautiful daughter.Zach: Thank you very much. Yes, yes, you've seen her. Yeah, she looks great, and she's getting bigger every day. It's just so cool that she's changing all the time. What I'd like to know though is if you've ever seen anti-racist, anti-state-sanctioned violence protests like this in your lifetime in terms of just scale and scope?Tema: You know, you gave me that question ahead of time, and I want to say both yes and no, and I want to say yes because [?] during the Vietnam War protest time period and I lived during the AIDS protest time and the growth of the LGBTQ movement, and I do want to acknowledge that the grief and rage and resistance that we're seeing today is part of a longer legacy of people who have been full of grief and rage and resistance before us so that we don't isolate ourselves and we also take credit for this particular moment, which is unique in the sense of the reach, the brilliance, the clarity about the demands, and I'm very excited about, you know, the defund the police direction that this is taking, and so it's a yes and no answer. I'm so excited to be alive in this moment, and I feel like I was honored to live through those other moments as well.Zach: And, you know, it's interesting because it's easy to kind of forget about the history of protest or the history of, like, anti-racism work, and so then, like, things kind of come in cycles, and so, you know, new voices come up in new generations and it's almost as if these conversations have never been had before, but, like, I'd like to get your perspective on really, like, just these concepts, the concept of whiteness and then also, like, the concept of anti-racism. And I know those are big questions. I'ma give you space, but I'd love just to hear you talk about that.Tema: Well, I think part of what's really unique about this moment is that these concepts are more broadly understood within the resistance movement that we're seeing now than they ever have been in my lifetime, so that part is definitely true. When I started doing this work a gazillion years ago, [?] years ago or so, you know, a lot of people--there was not what I would call... I don't want to use the word sophisticated, so the deep understanding about what whiteness is, how white supremacy operates, how white supremacy is the culture that we're swimming in, how it informs who we are although it doesn't define who we are. There was not that clarity, and I feel like I've been a part of the generation of people who helped think about, develop, and--and I'm not taking credit for it. I mean, I'm part of the wave of people who sort of understood that it was important to ground us in understanding that, understanding the ways that white supremacy, capitalism, patriarchy, all of these symptoms of oppression have really shaped who we are, and we need to understand how they operate if we're gonna do something different and have a different vision. So what I'll say is I think--and this might be one of the questions you're gonna ask later, but I think that the thing that we need to be careful about is that white supremacy and capitalism and patriarchy are very, very ingenious, and what we've seen happen in every movement that has ever occurred historically in our country is that they get diverted from a justice focus to an access focus and that capitalism and white supremacy know how to lure us just enough to say, "We're gonna let you have power of a certain extent in our institution. We're going to let you have access. We're going to say good things about you. But don't rock the boat too much." Leaders going, "Defund the police? It's too vague. You don't have a plan." You know, when we talk about access to healthcare, people don't demand [?]. It's like, "Yes, we have a vision. We have a vision of communities where the billions of dollars that are spent on militarized police are spent on schools and community centers and making sure people have enough food to eat." That's the vision that we have [?] defund the police, and that's what we're gonna do and not get distracted by--so part of the backlash is gonna be fierce and hateful and violent, but the more dangerous part of the backlash is gonna be accomodation.Zach: It's interesting, to your point around, like, respectability, right, and so how people, like, use the concept of civility, like, as a cudgel, right, to really stymie progression. You know, we had Dr. Robin DiAngelo on Living Corporate a few months ago, and we talked about her work in studying white fragility, and, you know, and--and, not but... not but, but I've listened to perspectives on how white fragility is not necessarily, you know, anti-racist work. Can you share your perspective on that?Tema: Sure. One of the dangers of our movement--and, you know, I love our movement, and I love many things about it. One of the dangers of our movement though is that we can get really [?] about what being in the movement or what activism is, and so my feeling is--so I'm 68 years old. I've been around a long time, and [?] point in my life is that we need it all. We need it all. This is not a competition about, you know, who's doing it right and who's doing it best and where the focus needs to be. So our frame, the way--The DR Works Collaborative has also been closed for about three or four years. All of our materials are on our website, which we can share the address later, but what we--our frame is that typically racism shows up on three levels, on the personal level, the ways that we are with each other and ourselves, on the cultura level, the beliefs and values and standards and norms of the groups of people that we're operating within, including sort of white supremacy culture overall, and then our institutional policies and procedures and practices, and one of our racial equity principles is that you have to work on all three levels. And so what I hear Robin saying, and I think it's really important, is that those of us are white who work pretty consistently on our conditioning, [?] the invitation that we are extended to join whiteness and, in joining whiteness, to both disconnect from people of color, disconnect from other white people and disconnect from ourselves, because that's what the invitation is. An example of white fragility is if you are angry, if you are in full grief about what's happening and my fragility says, "Well, you need to tone it down, because I can only accept your [?] if it comes to me in a certain kind of package," then I'm completely disconnected. I'm disconnected from you, and I'm disconnected from myself because I'm not allowing myself to feel my own grief and rage, right, because I'm so scared of yours I'm certainly not gonna feel my own. So I think what you're speaking to, you know, there's a thing that people say about white people and navelgazing and that we just like to navel gaze, and what I like to--you know, we like to agonize, and Maurice Mitchell talks about how his liberation or the liberation of black people, of people of color, is not tied up with my anxiety as a white person about getting it right. So I think that there's this balance between [?] our personal work, because all of us have invitations extended to us by white supremacy in some form or another. So all of us doing work on our internalized self and then continuing to be in the world and relationships and figuring out what our role in this resistance movement is. So it's not an either or. It's very much to me a both and, because if we don't do our personal work, then the way that we're gonna show up is just gonna replicate all of the [BLEEP] dynamics and clinging to power [?] and not understanding who we're accountable to and posturing and, you know, just things that aren't helpful, and fear of our fear and all of those things. I think it's a both and, right?Zach: I appreciate that, and I agree, right? I think one, white fragility is just so real, and it creates so many barriers and, frankly, causes so much harm in ways that we don't even consider, like, literally every single day, and because white supremacy is such a reality, white fragility impacts behavior of black and brown folks even when white people aren't around. So to make sure that those who are in power are examining and interrogating themselves, like, that's critical. That doesn't mean it's the only thing, but it's important to do.Tema: Yes. I think that living in white skin in a white supremacy culture obviously confers power and privilege, but not to everyone, and not in the same way, right? And so I think that it's really important, for me--'cause I'm speaking for myself--to understand how many white people are caught up in the same crapola of white supremacy and the ways that racism targets people of color, are caught up in that without [?] seeing it clearly. And I'm not saying that racism targets white people, I'm saying white people who are working class and poor or white people who have had no opportunity to understand how whiteness operates are swimming around in ways that are completely not in their self-interest, and, you know, are continually encouraged, for example, to look to middle class wealthy white people as their community when in fact their community are other people in the same economic and social situation that they're in. So, you know, I'd like to make sure we understand how many white people are hoodwinked by this whole thing as well and invited to participate in ways that make no sense [?].Zach: I think that's a really good point. One piece of literature that has really gotten, frankly, over the years consistent attention, but at this time it continues to get attention, is "White Supremacy Culture." It's something that you wrote, and we'll put the link in the show notes for everybody, but we're gonna walk through this research, this document. But before we do that, can you talk to us a little bit about how you arrived at the points that you made within the work that you wrote?Tema: Sure. So I've only written one book, and it's called "The Emperor Has No Clothes: Teaching About Race and Racism to People Who Don't Want to Know," and it basically was a chance for me to sit down and write all the things I and other colleagues have learned about teaching about race and racism to people. So that's what that book is, and White Supremacy Culture was written before the book, and I wrote it in either [?] or [?], so a long time ago. Kenneth and I were doing a lot of work on the West Coast, and I had just come from a People's Institute for Survival and Beyond workshop with Ron Chisholm and Daniel Buford and probably a few other people, and The People's Institute is based in New Orleans and is sort of, in my view, the grand daddy of people doing anti-racist education and training in my lifetime and so were our mentors and, you know, people that were doing the work that we were doing, so I was full of their wisdom when I wrote the piece, and I also had--and I can't remember the meaning, but I had just come from a meeting of predominantly white people where pretty much every dynamic in that sheet of paper, in that article, showed up, and I was frustrated beyond belief, and people say this, and this is my only experience of this phenomena, which is that "it wrote itself." Like, I didn't--I sat down at the computer and it wrote itself. Just sort of "This behavior, this behavior, this behavior, this behavior." It was like I was in a fury, and then I showed it to my mentor [?] Martinez, who was running a challenging white supremacy workshop at the time in the Bay Area, and she said, "You can't just list the terrible behaviors. You have to list antidotes. You have to talk about what to do," and so that was such good advice, and so I added those into it, and I will say--so it was written a long time ago. It was written without a class lens, which it needs, and it [?] things out, and it didn't--so I'm actually, in this moment, my project is creating a website rather than another article, but rather a website based on the article so that it can be more flexible. Lots of people have used it and adapted, and all the ways that people have used it and adapted it I'm gonna add a class lens, tell some stories, give examples. So that's my current project.Zach: Can we talk about, like--because in this document you essentially have these different characteristics. I'd like to walk through the characteristics that you list and then really just have you talk about each of them, because again, there are a lot of people that I respect, and I'm gonna shout-out Dr. Oni Blackstock because she's one of the most recent people who I saw tweeting about this and talking about this, but it's all over YouTube. Like, I don't know if you know this, but I just saw a video where somebody put this document up on a video and then, like, slow-scrolled it and talked about it, but I caught myself reading it and I said, "This is exactly like every work culture I've ever been a part of." So let's do this. Let's do each characteristic, and then you just kind of explain, you know, how these attitudes and behavior, you know, reinforce or drive white supremacy at work. Can we do that?Tema: Sure.Zach: So you start off with perfectionism. That's your first one.Tema: Mm-hmm. I started with that one I think probably because that's the one I'm the most guilty of myself. So, you know, I talk about how white supremacy culture is--the purpose of white supremacy is to disconnect us from each other [?] so that a few people can exert their control, cultural control, in ways that allow them to profit at our expense, and so perfectionism is this [idea?], it's very connected to professionalism, and it's this idea that there is a perfect way to do something, which is completely nonsense, and that there's somebody or some group of people who can determine what that is and encourage you to aspire to it. And then we internalize that, and I don't think I know a single person who actually feels completely comfortable with who they are and how they show up and how they're doing things, because the culture is so [?] I feel like we're continually falling short, and if we're continually falling short, then we have to buy products to make ourselves look better and feel better, and it's just a vicious cycle. And another thing I'll say about this list is that these things aren't just used to perpetuate racism and white supremacy and to target people of color in different ways at different times. They impact everybody, and they're toxic. There's nothing good about them at all at any time unless you're the one trying to control other people, and then you're so disconnected from yourself it's not even--Trump is a very good example of someone who's completely disconnected from anything. So I think that perfectionism is used as a tool of professionalism and as a tool to keep people from positions of power and also to keep people off balance about who they are and their worth and their value.Zach: You know, it's interesting. One of the things you say in here is, "Little appreciation expressed among people for the work that others are doing, appreciation that is expressed usually directed to those who get most of the credit anyway."Tema: Mm-hmm, yeah, exactly. And then the way that we internalize that, even when we're fighting hard not to. You know, I was talking to a friend yesterday who was applying for a position at a foundation. It's completely, completely clear to me, and I think to her, that she is not only qualified for the job, she is over-qualified for the job, and my guess is they won't hire her because it's clear to them too, you know? And it's so pernicious, the way that that works, where a lot of white people here who are not called to account for our lack of understanding about how racism and white supremacy works because it's not ever part of our job qualifications. No one is evaluating us based on our ability to understand how that works, and we're about to invite somebody in who does understand, and that makes us really uncomfortable, so maybe [?] somebody who's gonna not make us feel uncomfortable all the time. That's part of how that works.Zach: And so it's interesting. So I was about to move to sense of urgency, but to your point, in the recommended antidotes for racism you have "develop a culture of appreciation where the organization takes time to make sure the people's work and efforts are appreciated. Develop a learning organization where it's expected that everyone will make mistakes and those mistakes offer an opportunity for learning." It's interesting, even in organizations where they'll say things like, "Oh, it's okay to make mistakes," I've noticed that--and this is a common experience for most black folks at work, black and brown people to be clear, we don't have the same grace to make mistakes. It's interesting because--and I've had this conversation already with a colleague, but there was a time at work I put a PowerPoint together, and one I just think PowerPoints overall have to be one of the biggest examples of, like, subjectivity to the max, because what you think is a good PowerPoint or nice design I may genuinely think is abhorrent. I may really not like the design of your PowerPoint, right? Like, I might hate it. But anyway, I did a PowerPoint. Someone didn't like it, and so then that PowerPoint and then me, in their eyes, not doing well on a PowerPoint, was then a justification for me to blocked from [a multitude] of opportunities in very public ways, right? And so it's like, what does it look like to really create objective, safe, equitable spaces for everybody?Tema: Right. And what does it look like for that particular person to admit to themselves that they may not have the corner on how something needs to be done? I mean, I remember--each one of these, there's so much that's also interconnected, and two things come to mind. I remember Kenneth--so Kenneth was my mentor and my colleague for 12 years, and he died way too early in 2004, but as we were working together I remembered saying to him... 'cause my style, we were both about the same age, and my [?] style is sometimes to say or admit I've made a mistake or to show some vulnerability, and I said to Kenneth, "You never do that, you never show any vulnerability." "Tema, I can't afford to do that. People are watching me, waiting for me to make a mistake. So even if I make one, I'm not gonna say that I did because people are ready to pounce all over me for it." You know, and again, just another example of how long it took me to learn that, he had to sort of say that out loud to me [?]. So yeah, I think there's that part of it, and I had another thought, but I'm sure it will come to me as we keep talking. So here's the other story, which was that I seemed to be the details-oriented person, and sometimes I'd get really frustrated because I felt like he wasn't paying attention to, like, air fare or flights or when we had to be somewhere, and so I started to develop a little bit of an attitude about how I was doing so much more than he was, more important [?], and we were having a discussion and he said something to me like, "I talked to So-and-so the other day," and I said, "So-and-so? They were in our training a year ago," and he went, "Yeah, yeah." I said, "You're talking to them now?" "Oh, yeah, yeah," and then he proceeded to tell me that he was fostering relationships with most people in almost all the trainings over time and that that's what he did, and it just was such a lightbulb moment for me. I'm like, "Oh, my God. This man," who was a brilliant trainer, there was no question about that, "is leading and offering things that I've never even dreamt of being able to lead or offer that makes such a difference in this work, while I'm sitting here feeling all superior because I know how to schedule a plane flight." It was just like... so many of us, and so many white people in particular, but so many of us are walking around thinking that we know how things should work when we don't know at all, [?] open to how other ways of doing might actually offer so much more. So yeah.Zach: I appreciate that, and that resonates with me too because I think about, especially if you have, like, these majority white organizations, you know, again, people attract, or they're attracted, to people that are like them, right? And that's not just in appearance, but also in, like, ways of thinking and doing, and so, like, if you're in this space, the majority are really good at tasks or really good at [?] things off a box, if there's someone who can do those things but that's just not their wiring, then that person's automatically seen as a problem or as inferior in some way. In reality it's like, "Okay, I don't need--there's eight of y'all who tick off boxes and who are very, like, transactional. Is it possible for me to be different and at the same time be just as good if not add more value than you do perhaps?" I think, for me transparently, one of the biggest mistakes I think I've made in my career is that I think I've been too transparent and vulnerable about me wanting to learn and grow, 'cause I say "Hey, I'd like to learn this. I don't know this," but I've learned, in the spirit of perfectionism, when you communicate that you don't know something or you're new to something, I've just learned that we don't know, black and marginalized people, just don't have the grace to communicate that they don't know. They don't have the grace to grow. They just don't.Tema: Yeah, and it's infuriating. It's completely infuriating, and it's a complete loss. I think the thing that I would like to get across with my audience, my commitment to working with other white people, is for those of us listening to this to understand the deep violence in that, you know? In working side-by-side with people who feel like they are not allowed to offer their vulnerability or their desire to grow and learn because--my God, it's intense.Zach: So you have a lot of terms here, and you know, we might have to do a part two, but I want to see how many of these we can get through so I'm gonna back up and let you talk more. Sense of urgency.Tema: I think that, again, the point of urgency--so every organization I've ever worked with operates with a huge sense of urgency and everything is so critically important right this minute, and it completely perpetuates racism because--the example I'll give is we were doing work with an organization of mostly lawyers that do very good work on a state-wide level, and they had just sort of unpacked all the ways in which [?] of color on the staff and in the community that they served were not feeling heard, were not included in decision making, their ideas were shut down, sort of what we were just talking about, and then an emergency came up, and I think there might have been an arrest, but something urgent happened within the community, and the white leadership, the white lawyers, felt like they had to respond right this minute and if they didn't the organization would be at stake, and right in front of our eyes all of the dynamics were playing out in front of us, and the two of us who were facilitating the workshop tried to suggest to them, "This is happening right in front of our eyes. We know that this is urgent, and we suggest that you sit down and you take a breath and you understand there are other people in the community who are handling it in this moment and that what you all need to do is really sit and take a breath and see how you can approach this differently," and so they just repeated the--you know, you could see it. The white people were circled around, making all these decisions, and the people of color were [?] them on the outside, trying to listen in and then getting disgusted and walking away, and it was just--when things are urgent, if we're not paying attention and we haven't set up the relationships and we haven't set up the procedures to say when things get literally urgent this is what we're gonna do, when things feel urgent but they aren't this is what we're gonna do. Is this really as urgent as we think it is? Because it's urgent we need to take a breath, we need to take a breath and make sure that we're all in this together rather than walking all over each other in our attempt to prove something, which is to prove that, like, we're the organization that's gonna respond like that, even if the way that we respond, you know, tramples over people. And then I think a lot of us internalize urgency. A lot of white people feel like, "If we don't act right now, if I don't fix this right now, then I'm not gonna be able to prove that I'm a good white person," so then we go in and fix something and we make it worse because we haven't stopped to take a breath to consult with other people, to see if our intuition, our impulse is actually the right one. I've seen that happen over and over and over again.Zach: Let's talk about quantity over quality.Tema: Well, you know, we live in a capitalistic society, and we love to measure things, and we love to believe that value has to do with amounts of things, usually money. And again, so I see some of the [thunder patterns?], all of the thunder patterns that I've seen in my lifetime and work, is thunders trying to get people to prove that they're effective by the numbers of things. "How many people did you impact?" Not the quality of things, not the depth of things, not the sustainability of things but, you know, the number of things, which is such a limited measure of how we're doing, and the research I've done on culture shift shows that it's actually not a numbers game. We don't need a majority of people to shift culture. We need deep relationships, we need generational change, we need clusters of people coming to new beliefs simultaneously, but they don't have to be a majority. So I just think it's good to be able to have a sense of what we think progress is, but often we aim towards--I do a lot of work in schools, and the story I often tell--so I'm sorry if anyone's heard this before--is how our schools often, if not always, have a story that what they're trying to do is prepare students for success, and what they mean by that is "We want students to stay in school, get good grades, graduate, get a job, and go shopping, and if we can measure that we've done that it doesn't matter if our students are leading meaningful lives. We're not measuring that. We're not measuring if students know how to find themselves. We're not measuring if students have gotten in touch with their spiritual side or their artistic side. We're not measuring whether students know how to be in a relationship with themselves and with each other. We're not measuring the things that matter, you know? We just don't know how to measure those things. We're obsessed with graduation rates and, you know, how much money people are making.Zach: You have another one here about worship of the written word.Tema: Mm-hmm. So I'll give an example if you'll give an example, but this is our history, sort of the theft of indigenous land, the theft of land from Mexico, the broken treaties, the enslavement of people, it's all built on worship of the written word and the whole, you know, all of our Southwest and Midwest states that became US property after the Mexican-American War and the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, all of that theft of land was made possible because Congress passed all kinds of legislation requiring people to [?], and most people lived in a culture where that's not how people [?] that they owned land. So that's just one example, and just the ways that we hide behind "If it's not written down, then it doesn't exist." "It's only wisdom if it's written down," and then only if it's written down by certain people. What comes to mind for you?Zach: So here's where I found the application interesting. So there's a way that I believe those in power and in the majority will essentially place the burden on the oppressed to have evidence, like, tangible, documented evidence, but then in the instances where that evidence is undeniable, then at best it simply just saves that oppressed person from being harmed, but it doesn't necessarily guarantee justice for that oppressed person.Tema: Yeah, or they'll say it's not written right or the form was not filled out correctly or--Zach: Right, or "We still don't have all the facts," or "What about the other person's side?" And so there's still this--it's such a jig, because you're gonna lose, but the question is "While this may have saved you from getting fired, it's not actually going to absolve your name completely after all. These other people said something." Right?Tema: I think about when Bhagat Singh Thind sued the Supreme Court for citizenship, and he was from India, and he was suing based on how science classified people from India as Caucasoids, and the year before a Japanese person who had done the same thing lost the case because people from Japan were classified as mongoloids, so they were not white, but the Supreme Court said, "Well, it's true science classifies you as Caucasoids, but you're not seen as white by the common white man, therefore you're not white." So it's the written word, but also the word is, as you said, controlled and considered by those in power, and whose written words will be paid attention to and whose won't?Zach: Yeah. I think about Breonna Taylor. We know that she was murdered by the state in her own bed, but then when you go back and you look at the report it's completely blank, right? And so, like, anybody with good sense should be able to understand that Breonna Taylor's bullet-ridden body and that piece of paper are not congruent. So one of those [?] is lying. Breonna's own blood testifies that she is not lying, so why are Breonna Taylor's murderers still free? It's the worship of the written word.Tema: Yeah. Sandra Bland, all of that, yeah.Zach: Yeah, Sandra Bland as well, right? And countless others. Tony McDade. And it's frustrating, but I think about that. I think about how manipulative and--you used the word pernicious, it's a really appropriate word in that, you know, documentation really matters until it doesn't. I always tell marginalized people to document everything, because again, while documentation might not ever hold any accountable, it at the very least can make sure that you don't get fired, or it can delay you getting fired because you have something, hard evidence, that if someone says something, you're like, "Well, what you're saying is clearly not true." Okay, so paternalism was another characteristic that you had in your research.Tema: Yeah. I'm gonna bow here to a man named Paul Kibble, who does a lot of writing on Christian hegemony. It's just the way in which--and so many of these intersect, and I'm adding one called "qualified." I don't know if that's on the list explicitly there, but it's the way in which white people assume that, because we're white, we are qualified to act and make decisions that are outside our lived experience, and I think about--when I taught it, when I wasn't on the faculty in educational leadership, when I taught undergraduate students in education, you know, most of them are young, white women who were coming into teaching because they loved to--and please know I admire teachers beyond belief because they work so hard for so little, and yet they come in, these young white women come in very idealistic and very hopeful, and they have no experience, most of them, working with people of color and very little preparation for doing that, and yet have not internalized that they're not at all qualified to do the job, and the education system hasn't internalized that either, and so just the ways in which we've got almost every [?] institution is operating out of a sense of paternalism. Like, "We know what's better for you without consulting you or asking you about your lived experience." And I think about doing work with the department of social services where it's about a woman who, in order to make it through her week, had to visit 11 different offices in the Department of Social Services to account for herself, you know? And it's the way in which--if we look at Congress. Banks are completely involved in writing policies having to do with banks. Poor people and working people have no say in policies that impact their lives, and the laws that impact their lives are written by people who think that they need to be punished for being working class and poor or who think that they need to be exploited or, you know, who have absolutely no care or concern or lived experience, for the most part, of what it means to be black, brown, working class poor, and paternalism is just this idea that "We know better than you," and it can be very deeply embedded in religious thinking, in Christian thinking, and [?]--it's just sort of the idea that "We know best. We're going to convert you to our ways," and that's white supremacy is all about. The goal here [?] is "Act like us if we can exploit you more that way." Assimilation, and if not assimilation exploitation and violence, you know? It's just all based on this idea that we know better, and one of the things that we know better is that [class?] is more important than people.Zach: I think that's true. I think it comes down to a lot of power and control. So, you know, one of my larger concerns right now, even as corporations and larger organizations are looking at Black Lives Matter and people are taking these statements and stances, and organizations are mobilizing their employee resource groups and different things to have these conversations and do real talk and all this kind of stuff, and how much of this is about really hearing and including their marginalized employees, and how much of this is about, like, really making sure that you're retooling, reshaping your organization to be equitable and inclusive, or how much of this is really about you just trying to put some gates and borders around this to maintain control, right? That's my biggest concern.Tema: So I think there's two parts to this. So I think there can be conscious paternalism and there can be unconscious paternalism, and probably lots of gray [?] in between, and so I for one completely hate the terms diversity and [?] because I don't think that they--it's about window-dressing or table-dressing or whatever term you want to use. It doesn't ask the question, "What are we including people into?" Because if we were to ask that question, we would have to admit that a lot of what we're inviting people into is toxic. So it's not about including people. It's about reshaping everything, and I think that's what I was talking about in terms of what we need to be wary of, that some of the backlash is going to be very direct and hateful. Now, a lot of it is gonna be about accommodation, and forget about justice, let's just accommodate, accommodate, accommodate. And paternalism really plays a role there, and we can see it reflected in older leaders often, people who have been around a long time, who are scared they're gonna lose power by these young people who are coming up full of fervor and demanding justice, and some of us have accommodated for so long in order to just often survive that we've forgotten what the goal is, and some of the paternalism is--I'll speak for myself--is internalized entitlement, the internalized belief that I'm qualified to do things I'm not qualified to do, and it didn't require any intent on my part. And I tell a story on the website, and it might be in the book I can't remember, of essentially pushing my black colleague aside in an environment where I knew absolutely everything. This was a different colleague, a colleague named Kamayu [sp] [?], an incredible organizer, and he was in [?], the room was packed full of African-American people living in the [?], economically poor, culturally incredibly genius and rich, and, you know, I didn't think he was doing a good job, so I walked up to the front and I pushed him aside, and I didn't know anything about [?] in the [?], right? But I had this instinct in my body that he wasn't doing it and I needed to fix it. It was--so there's that, the way I internalized this paternalism and this idea that I know how to do things. We just cause so much harm, and again, it's a complete tribute to Kamayu that we're still friends. He actually didn't say anything to me for years, and finally I started to think about it and I'm like, "Kamayu, what about that day?" And he went, "Oh, I figured you'd figure it out sooner or later." You know? So there were, like, five years in there where Kamayu was not--I was not in a genuine relationship with him because he was waiting for me to figure it out, you know?Zach: To your example, I think about it in ways that, like--so it's interesting, you have these cultures that are very racist, right? Like, you have these organizations that have harmed black people for a while, but it just so happens that there's a certain confluence of events that are forcing organizations that have been historically harmful to black and brown people, now they're having to do things differently. But what's challenging, what's interesting, is that some of the people who just six months ago were very harmful are now self-appointing themselves as leaders to have these conversations, right? And, like, there's a certain--of course that's emotionally inauthentic, but I think there's also a certain level of entitlement and paternalism in that.Tema: Yeah, totally. And again, I think--so this is my job, it's not your job, but as someone who identifies as white, who is white, who lives a white life and thinks a lot about what it means to be in relationships with other white people, part of [my job?] is to encourage myself and other white people to think about, "What are we doing here?" And what is the cost to you of this posturing, and what would it be like for you to actually authentically sit down with yourself and go, "Okay, what am I afraid of? What kind of help do I need? What are the things I really need to change?" And I think all of us need to develop a much better practice of what I would call radical honesty with ourselves about why we want to live in a world where we actually are able to have authentic relationships with other people and ourselves and live in a world where people are well-cared for and people can thrive and we don't have to be so afraid of [?] and all these other things. So yeah.Zach: So I'ma pick one last one. Fear of open conflict.Tema: Yeah, that goes back to perfectionism and some of the other things that we talked about. The story I'll tell is that--well, it's a common story, which is that some racism is happening, and rather than deal with the racism that's happening we will label or target the person who's naming it, and sometimes that happens to white people too because we're so afraid of the truth-telling that's gonna happen of how racism is happening. So it's just this--we're too afraid to talk about things that are real and are gonna have emotion attached to them and might lead us, as white people, to feel like we've done something wrong or that we may even essentially be bad in some kind of way, so let's not talk about it. Let's blame the person who's trying to make us uncomfortable. This is attached to "right to comfort." Let's blame the people who are calling us in and say that there's something wrong with them so we don't have to feel our feelings, we don't have to be uncomfortable, we don't have to look at ourselves. We can stay in what feels like control, and it's such a--again, it does such harm, to other people and also to ourselves. The ability to sort of say, "Bring it on. Okay, tell me more. Tell me more. That was so racist? Okay, tell me more. I want to know. Tell me more." It's such a different energy. It's opening. Or "You're racist." "No, I'm not." "Yes, you are." "No, I'm not." There's nowhere--it's, like, you're building conflict and you're not--it's like, "So tell me. How am I racist? Yeah, I want to know, because I think I probably am. So tell me." There's so much more fruit there, even if you end up not agreeing with what they say it's like there's more fruit, more juice, more ability to--it's like, "We can handle this. We can sit in this discomfort, and in fact, if we don't learn to do that we're not gonna get anywhere."Zach: But see, I think that in the context of, like, a business, like, the fear with that is that if I admit that I'm racist, if I admit that I've harmed you, then that gives you byway to pursue the company, right? And so there's this fear of creating risk or opening your company up, opening yourself up to risk by admitting your faults, you know?Tema: So people just need to figure out a way to deal with that.Zach: [laughs] I love how you just dismiss that.Tema: Oh, come on. I don't--you know, legalese and laws and policies [?] in service of connection and not in service of fear and abuse, right? It's like Trump saying you can only come to the thing if you're not gonna sue me if you get the coronavirus. Like, no. And I would also say, for me, one of the racial equity principles [?], you'll see this list of characteristics, and you'll also see our racial equity principles, and one of the ones I love the most is called Organizing Mind, and what we mean by that is you start with the chorus. People go, "Oh, you're preaching to the chorus," and I go yes, because our chorus is very out of tune, so let's get in tune, and then we can start preaching to people outside the chorus and bring them into the chorus. So it's, like, start with the people who want you want, and figure out what your power is, figure out the risk that you're willing to take, and from there each one reach one teach one, as Sharon Martinez would say. So in a corporate environment it's, like, figuring out what are the roadblocks that we need to get rid of so we can actually do this, or whwere are we willing to have authentic conversations regardless of the risk and can we start doing that? So figure out what's within your power to do and do it. Don't wait for permission. Don't wait for--you know, there are lots of things that we can do and build our power that way without people giving us permission to do it, as we are witnessing across the country and across the globe, right? All these beautiful people, many young people, not waiting for permission. Bringing down statues, [?], and it's a beautiful thing to see right now.Zach: It's brought me joy, frankly, to see. Dr. Okun, this has been a phenomenal conversation. I just want to thank you so much for being a guest. I want to make sure that everybody knows that the document that we were walking through and that I picked a few characteristics out of for our guest to beautifully expand upon is gonna be in the show notes, and we're going to also be promoting it--you'll see it this week on social media and things of that nature, so make sure that you check it out. This has been Living Corporate. You know, we do this every single week. We're having conversations, real talk in a corporate world, that center and amplify marginalized voices at work. We'll make sure to catch you all next time. In the meantime between now and next time, we're all over Beyonce's internet. You just type in Living Corporate, we'll pop up. Catch us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, and man, if you have anything you want to talk to us about, just contact us through the website, living-corporate.com. Please say the dash--living dash corporate dot com. 'Til next time, y'all, this has been Zach, and you've been listening to Dr. Tema Okun, activist, educator, speaker, organizer. Peace.

In today’s episode, Dr Carolyn Lam discusses the prevalence of familial hypercholesterolemia among the general population and patients with atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease with Dr Kausik Ray (KOSH) and Dr Amit Khera. Dr Carolyn Lam: Welcome to Circulation On the Run, your weekly podcast summary and backstage pass to the journal and its editors. I'm Carolyn Lam, associate editor from the National Heart Center and Duke National University of Singapore. Dr Greg Hundley: And I'm Greg. I'm the associate editor from the Pauley Heart Center at VCU health in Richmond, Virginia. Dr Carolyn Lam: Greg, ever wondered what's the prevalence of familial hypercholesterolemia in the general population? It's an important question, but we're going to wait to discuss that with our feature discussion coming right up. First, I want to tell you all about valvular heart disease. In a preclinical model, would you believe, but first let me just remind us all that primary valvular heart disease is a really prevalent cause of morbidity and mortality. And although the primary consequence of valvular heart disease is myocardial dysfunction, treatment of valvular heart disease has always centered around valve repair or replacement, rather than the prevention or reversal of myocardial dysfunction. In fact, have you thought about this? We know very little about the mechanisms, the actual preclinical underlying mechanisms of left ventricular dysfunction and primary severe mitral regurgitation. Well, in the first paper I want to talk about today, Dr Li from First Affiliated Hospital, Sun Yat-sen, University Guangzhou, and Dr Sadek, from UT Southwestern Medical Center and their colleagues develop the first mouse model of severe mitral regurgitation. And they did this by severing the mitral valve leaflets and chords using iridectomy scissors. Similar to the human condition, induction of mitral regurgitation was followed by gradual left ventricular dilatation and dysfunction resulting in severe systolic dysfunction. Further analysis revealed that severe mitral regurgitation resulted in a marked increase in cardiac mass, increased cardiomyocyte length, but not with, and electron microscopy evidence of sarcomere disarray and the development of sarcomere disruption. From a mechanistic standpoint, severe mitral regurgitation resulted in activation of multiple components of both the mTOR and Kelson urine pathways. Now intriguingly, inhibition of mTOR signaling even preserved sarcomeric structure and prevented left ventricular remodeling and systolic dysfunction. Finally, immunohistochemical analysis uncovered a differential pattern of expression of the cell polarity regulator CRB2, along the longitudinal axis of cardiomyocytes and close to the intercalated discs, with a similar pattern of polysome localization. And all of this suggests a potential new mechanism of longitudinal cardiomyocyte growth. Dr Greg Hundley: Well, Carolyn, there is a lot of basic science and a lot going on both histopathologically, but also mechanically with this model. What's our take home message? Dr Carolyn Lam: Well, Greg, this mitral regurgitation mouse models suggest that cardiomyocyte hypertrophy in response to mitral regurgitation is a maladaptive process that may be pharmacologically targeted by mTOR inhibitors. Dr Greg Hundley: Oh my, very nice Carolyn. Well, I'm going to bring you another kind of basic science paper as well. And it's from Dr Jin Li from the Institute of Biochemistry and Molecular Medicine at the University of Bern. And it really involves auto antibody signatures in cardiac arrests. So Carolyn, a quiz of what percentage of individuals sustaining out of hospital cardiac arrest have no known cause? Dr Carolyn Lam: You said, “Oh oh!” I’m on the spot here, Greg. Okay. What about if I start with what I do know? Coronary artery disease is the most common cause. I think that may be, I don't know, large majority, 80% of it. And then we get inherited cardiomyopathy, channelopathies. So I'm going to guess less than 10%. Dr Greg Hundley: Wow. That is why you're just the stellar extraordinaire. So it's exactly about 5% to 10%. So Carolyn this study sought to address the etiology for this out of hospital arrests in this 5% to 10% of individuals, using a peptide micro-ray designed to screen for IgG targeting epitopes from all known cardiac ion channels with extracellular domains. So plasma samples from 23 patients with unexplained cardiac arrest were compared to 22 cardiac arrest cases of ischemic origin and a group of 29 age, sex, and BMI matched healthy subjects. Dr Carolyn Lam: Wow. What did they find, Greg? Dr Greg Hundley: The auto antibody against the poor domain of the L tight voltage gated calcium channel or Cav 1.2 was consistently identified as a biomarker of idiopathic cardiac arrest and functional studies on human induced pluripotent STEM cell derived cardiomyocytes demonstrated that the anti Cav 1.2 IgG purified from patients with idiopathic cardiac arrest is pro-arrhythmogenic by reducing the action potential duration through calcium channel inhibition. Dr Carolyn Lam: Wow, that seems huge. Clinical implications? Dr Greg Hundley: I thought you'd asked me that. So the present report addresses the concept of autoimmunity and cardiac arrest and hitherto unknown auto antibodies targeting extra cellular sequences of cardiac ion channels were detected. And so moreover, this study identifies an auto antibody signature to specific patients with cardiac arrest, thereby explaining perhaps a potential etiology for this 5% to 10% of individuals that here to for, we were uncertain of that particular ideology. Dr Carolyn Lam: Wow. That clearly needs follow-up, but you know what? What also needs follow-up is a quiz question for you. What do you say to a young adult with stage one hypertension about his or her future health risks? Dr Greg Hundley: Well, how about A, see a physician, B, listen to that physician and follow their recommendations? Dr Carolyn Lam: Oh, you are brilliant. Well, guess what? I'm going to tell you a little bit more about this in the next paper from Dr Kim from Yonsei University College of Medicine and Colleagues who looked at almost six and a half million participants aged 20 to 39 years. So young, and without taking any antihypertensive medication in 2003 to 2007 in a nationwide health screening database. Now participants were categorized according to the 2017 ACCAHA guidelines as having a normal blood pressure. That is an untreated systolic blood pressure, less than 120 and diastolic blood pressure less than 80. Or stage one, isolated diastolic hypertension. So that's when systolic is less than 130 and diastolic between 80 and 89. Or stage one isolated systolic hypertension. So that's when systolic blood pressure is between 130-139 and diastolic is less than 80. Or finally, stage one systolic and diastolic hypertension. So that's when systolic is between 130-139 and diastolic is between 80 and 89. And these were followed up for the primary outcome of composite cardiovascular disease events, including myocardial infarction, stroke, heart failure, and cardiovascular related death. Dr Greg Hundley: Caroline, I am dying to hear what did they find? Dr Carolyn Lam: So over a median follow-up of 13.2 years, more than 44,000 new cardiovascular disease events occurred. Among these young adults who had a median age of only 30 years stage one, isolated systolic hypertension, isolated diastolic hypertension, and systolic and diastolic hypertension were each associated with higher cardiovascular risks compared to normal blood pressure. Cardiovascular risk of stage one systolic and diastolic hypertension was higher than the risks of stage one isolated systolic and isolated diastolic hypertension.   Dr Greg Hundley: Very good. That was an outstanding presentation and very pertinent to our younger listeners as well as young patients with hypertension. In the rest of this journal, we are jammed packed with more articles. Let me tell you about a few. First, I've got a research letter by Professor G. Kees Hovingh from Amsterdam UMC discussing Inclisiran and how that durably lowers LDLC and PCSK-9 expression in homozygous familial hypercholesterolemia. Next there's an ECG challenge from Dr Miguel Arías from Complejo Hospitalario Universitario de Toledo involving syncope and alternating QRS morphologies. Next Professor Qing Yang from Tianjin Medical University General Hospital has a perspective piece regarding anti-platelet therapy following percutaneous coronary interventions in patients complicated by COVID-19. One of our own associate editors, Dr Nicholas Mills, has a very nice on my mind piece related to the use of serum troponin and biomarkers, as well as their utility in managing patients with COVID-19. Next, Dr Courtney Campbell from Ohio State University and Wexner Medical Center has a perspective piece regarding will compliment inhibition be the new target in treating COVID-19 related systemic thrombosis. And then finally, Carolyn, there's a nice exchange of research letters regarding Orai 1 channel inhibition, preserving left ventricular systolic function, and normal calcium handling after pressure overload. And the contributing authors that provided these letters are Dr Muddassir Mehmood from University of Tennessee Medical Center and Dr Jessica Sabourin from INSERM UMR S1180. Dr Carolyn Lam: And that's not all, Greg. There's also an in-depth article on the implications of altered ketone metabolism and therapeutic ketosis in heart failure by Dr Salvaraj, Kelly, and Margulies. Now this review is a must read. It summarizes the current evidence supporting a role for ketones in heart failure and covers normal myocardial ketone utilization, alterations, and ketone metabolism in a failing heart and effects of therapeutic ketosis in both animals and humans with heart failure. There's also a research letter by Dr Susanna Larson who used the UK Biobank Cohort to perform a Mendalian Randomization investigation into the causal effects of circulating LPA levels on atherosclerotic, cerebral vascular thrombotic, and valvular disease. There's another research letter by Dr Eliseo Guallar and that's on mitochondrial DNA copy number, which is an indirect biomarker of mitochondrial dysfunction and its association with incident heart failure in the Eric study. Wow, such a full issue, but now let's go on to our feature discussion. Shall we, Greg? Dr Greg Hundley: You bet. Dr Carolyn Lam: Today's feature discussion is all about familial hypercholesterolemia. Now, recent study suggests it is more frequent than previously reported. And in fact, increasingly recognized as affecting individuals of all ethnicities and across many regions of the world. Well, today's feature paper really represents one of the most comprehensive assessments of the prevalence of familial hypercholesterolemia. More than 7.3 million individuals from 62 studies. So pleased to have with us the corresponding author of this beautiful paper, Dr Ray Kosh from Imperial College London, as well as our editor of digital strategies, Dr Amit Khera from UT Southwestern. Kosh, if I may call you that, congratulations again on another just really important paper. This systematic review and meta-analysis is really revealing. So could you tell us a little bit more of the details of what you did and just really tell us the take home messages. Dr Kausik Ray: We've been getting signals that familial hypercholesterolemia... So this is where essentially individuals inherited an abnormality that results in lifelong elevations of LDL cholesterol birth, increases risk of cardiovascular disease. The previous prevalence was believed to be about one in 500 and suggestions... It's actually not just a suggestion, there's a lot of data suggesting that it's a lot more prevalent than that. And one of the queries that we often have, if you think about global health is does it affect all regions of the world? And if we don't go out looking for it, you're not going to find it. So this is really why this was done. And we basically synthesize the global data and there was basically over 7 million people approximately from general population primary care settings, if you will. And the global prevalence for FH is one in 311. Confidence interval is between about one and 250 to one in 397. If you look at WHO regions of the world, it's equally prevalent across all regions of the world. And we know there are many regions of the world where they're not going out looking for this. So if you don't look for it, you won't find it. And we think that that should inform public health policies. The other key things about this or that because this is a condition that results in premature cardiovascular disease, there's been emerging data that actually in people with early myocardial infarction, for example, the possibility of FH may be higher. So in proportion of studies where we had participants with established cardiovascular disease, the possibility of this being present is about one in 17. Now they're not all going to be FH, but it means that actually the coronary care unit where the vast majority of these patients arose from, that's a great starting place. If you see somebody with premature MI before the age of 55, high LDL cholesterol above 190, start thinking about it. If you find one, you can think about cascade testing and finding family members because each effected individual potentially the likelihood in a first degree relative is 50%, 1 in 2. So that becomes really important. And I think those are probably where I'd stop now and maybe take a few more questions, but I think that's the take home message. Dr Carolyn Lam: Very, very important and practical take home messages. So thanks for that, Kosh. But could I just go back with one basic question? For those of us who don't think of it every day, what is the definition of familial hypercholesterolemia? There are so many definitions out there. Could you simplify it for us? Dr Kausik Ray: Yeah, so basically all the definitions, the common ones that have been used in making an early diagnosis. So met that criteria, looking at family history, looking at elevated cholesterol levels. There's the Simon-Broome criteria with some clinical signs, as well as family history and genetic mutations. And then there's the Dutch lipid criteria. That's probably the most used in the world, looking at the physical signs, LDL cholesterol levels, and also family history. And they give you essentially a score of the likelihood of this. And if you like, the gold standard really is probably genetic testing. That's not available in all regions of the world. There may be cost and other issues with that, but essentially that is giving you a diagnosis of a known variant of monogenic disorder and there's over 1,800 or so variants identified. So those are the ways that you can essentially do this. Dr Carolyn Lam: Thanks, Kosh. Amit, I have to bring you in here. Thank you so much for managing this beautiful paper and recognizing how important it is. You invited an editorial as well. Could you share some of your thoughts? Dr Amit Khera: Sure. The one thing, Kosh, as we look at this, which is so important to understand the prevalence worldwide and really glad that your group took on this project. But if you look at your figure, what's striking is how many areas are essentially white where there's no data. I mean, huge proportions of countries around the world. Why do you think that is? And how do we close that gap? Dr Kausik Ray: That becomes really important. So what I would say is this was looking at prevalence and those are areas of the world where prevalence has not been reported. So if I were to overlap that with countries, for example, where we are starting to get definitive diagnosis through gene mutations, for example, there would be fewer gaps. We don't yet have enough data in terms of prevalence in those areas. But if you look, there's a huge gap, for example, in Africa. You've got a few countries that we know that haven't reported prevalent but have published on FH. So we do know it's there. And then you've got South Africa at the bottom and you've got Nigeria now also collecting data. But part of it is, I guess, one important thing is misclassification. So if somebody dies in those regions of the world, often it's attributed to other causes. And because there is little public health information, because there hasn't been investments on thinking about cholesterol, for example, is it common in our population? If you were in sub Saharan Africa, maybe you think about infectious disease or other things, right? So it's not on the agenda. So there hasn't been that investment and therefore data is then lacking. We starting to see shifts in that, and hopefully this will move the needle a little bit more. And I think once that is done, what will then happen is we will get more reliable estimates from that part of the world. I think we've all got patients from that part of the world. And when I think about my clinical practice, I have patients from the middle of Africa, West, East, Sri Lanka, none of which is represented on that map. Dr Amit Khera: I think that's a great point. And you know, there's no reason to think that the prevalence is much different. We just have a gap in knowledge there. And I guess the next part comes to implications. As you rightfully discussed many times in your paper, less than 1% of people are diagnosed. And even if someone publishes prevalence data, a diagnosis could involve genetic testing, it could involve broad limpid screening, a combination of both. What do you think is the next step? Dr Kausik Ray: That's incredibly important. And I think you have to think about two different approaches. They're are the populations already out there living with this condition. So how do we picture those? It's going to be very difficult to think about universal screening in everybody 40-60, for example. So one way is to look at those people, the index case who comes in premature myocardial infarction in particular and use that as a source for cascade testing. We know that that is cost-effective. There've been formal evaluations of that approach. I do think with the cost of genetic testing, for example, that will make life a lot easier. And I think that that point in CCU, the elevated LDL premature MI should be the start of that thought process. What we tend to do is we have a whole list of medications. We start people on that and it's an afterthought, depending upon the post-treatment cholesterol levels. It shouldn't be. The other thing I think that you could do, there are lots of opportunities for screening. If you think about those people now, who are under the age of 10, 11, and you think about vaccination programs, you think about pre-college, pre-university health assessments that are often done in many parts of the world. Those offer opportunities to get a blood sample. David Wall did a lovely piece several years ago, looking at child parents screening, reverse cascade, if you will. And that showed that it could be cost effective. You don't need a small sample of blood. You can use DNA. And each of those interactions gives you an opportunity for screening. What I'd love to see is we all think that there will be or there could be an update of the WHO recommendations for cholesterol management. And that might advocate, for example, universal screening for cholesterol before the age of 29. If that is done, then if you think of low middle-income countries, a lot of those white gap, we will start to see those things being or this condition being picked up and potentially huge numbers of lives being saved. And because this is a genetic condition which is ultimately dominant, you find one, you can either exclude or find other people early and early diagnosis changes prognosis as you well know. Dr Amit Khera: Thank you for that, the implications and the potential profound if one could implement that broad screening. And as you pointed out early treatment, and I have one last question for you and it has to do with other part of the coin, which you touched on, which is the ASCBD. You know, your estimates of one and 17 were really helpful. I think many people aren't appreciative of how relatively common FH is in patients with coronary artery disease. And you talked about the implications being cascade screening of family members, but I know you work in therapeutics as well. There've been some data about maybe even earlier intervention or more aggressive intervention once someone's diagnosed with FH and after cardiovascular disease. What are your thoughts on that part of the investigation? Dr Kausik Ray: Yeah, no, that's a really important question. So most of the studies that have actually looked at ACVD, they didn't utilize, for example, a genetic diagnosis. So it's largely the clinical phenotype. And remember, you have an A priority bias in terms of scoring on the Dutch Lipid Network Criteria, by virtue of the fact that you've had premature disease. Some of these people will probably have elevations in LP(a) and others it could be polygenic hypercholesterolemia, which does carry an increased risk, but not as much as FA. If you could separate those three out the implications really are if you think about the ACVD patient population with true FA, you basically missed 40 years of unexposed exposure. And so in these people, I think those are people that we should be thinking about mainly more aggressive intervention with either lower LDL targets, because the absolute benefit is likely to be much, much greater. So I think that's the key implication I think of these findings. Dr Carolyn Lam: Thanks so much, Amit. Thanks so much, Kosh. As someone living in an area where there is... It's white on that map as well, but no available data in Southeast Asia, I've learned a lot. Thank you, listeners, for joining us this week. You've been listening to Circulation On the Run. Please tune in again next week. Dr Greg Hundley: This program is copyright the American Heart Association 2020.  

Zoltan Szalas, Senior Product Manager of Growth at IBM, saddles up with us to talk machine learning, his early days at startup Croissant, and how to get buy-in across teams to hit goals. We also get a little spacey and talk quantum computing! *Hosted by Taylor Gibb and PJ Bruno LIVE at LTR 2019*       TRANSCRIPT: [0:00:18] PJ Bruno: Taylor, take us there, we're hot.   [0:00:19] Taylor Gibb: Here I go.   [0:00:20] Zoltan Szalas: Let's rock and roll.   [0:00:20] Taylor Gibb: All right. Welcome back to Braze for Impact. This is your MarTech industry discuss digest. And we're here in the middle of our humanity series, and I'm lucky enough to be seated across from Zoltan Szalas who is the senior product manager for growth at none other than IBM. This is a big deal guys. And Zoltan, we're so happy to have you in the studio with us.   [0:00:42] Zoltan Szalas: Well thanks for having me   [0:00:44] Taylor Gibb: Anytime. And to my left, as always, is PJ Bruno who runs client education here at Braze. PJ, how's it going?   [0:00:52] PJ Bruno: Feeling so good, feeling right. I'm excited for this one.   [0:00:54] Taylor Gibb: Oh, this is going to be a really good one. Zoltan, I know that you've done a little prep with PJ before the session.   [0:01:00] Zoltan Szalas: I did, I did.   [0:01:00] Taylor Gibb: It's exciting to think that you were thinking about this before coming in. I just want to hear from you a little bit about, I mean IBM. IBM is think, but what does that mean?   [0:01:10] Zoltan Szalas: Think.   [0:01:11] Taylor Gibb: Exactly. So obviously brand recognition isn't a problem these days, but are there ways that you're working to do things like leverage machine learning or push the limit in increasing your user base overall?   [0:01:24] Zoltan Szalas: Yeah, that's a great question. And you're right, IBM, there's no brand recognition problem there.   [0:01:30] Taylor Gibb: Right?   [0:01:30] Zoltan Szalas: Like I got a job at IBM and my mom's like, "Oh my God, that's amazing." She has no idea what we do, or what I do. But she was so excited. But competition is fierce. I mean IBM alone has over something like several hundred products. And there are startups entering from all over the place, like entering our space and kind of biting away at the business. So growth for IBM, there's a granular level growth where we utilize things like machine learning. So one of the things that we're implementing right now is a retention AI tool. So what that does is when an account is going into defection, so when it comes up for churn.   [0:02:09] Taylor Gibb: Lapsing user.   [0:02:10] Zoltan Szalas: Exactly. It sends a notification to the according CSM or whoever owns that account. Now on the flip side it also does it for expansion. So for example, let's say somebody is expanding on their usage of natural learning processing or Watson Assistant, it's going to notify the CSM so they can reach out to them, have the conversation of upsell, cross selling. And we're going to be implementing that into, I know you guys didn't want to talk about Braze, but we're going to be implementing that into Braze for customers who don't have a CSM assigned, right?   [0:02:41] Taylor Gibb: Really?   [0:02:41] PJ Bruno: What's Braze?   [0:02:42] Taylor Gibb: Yeah, never heard of her. Who is she?   [0:02:46] PJ Bruno: Keep going.   [0:02:48] Zoltan Szalas: So that's at the product level. And it's really kind of eating your own dog food, and really implementing things to grow the user base but on a macro level. Things like the Red Hat acquisition, right? Like understanding that and the significance that it's going to have. You have to ask the question of why did we spend $36 billion on an acquisition? That's a 15 to 20 year return. That's where the market is-   [0:03:11] PJ Bruno: That is a long game.   [0:03:12] Zoltan Szalas: It is a long game.   [0:03:13] Taylor Gibb: And smart.   [0:03:14] Zoltan Szalas: But that that strategic partnership is going to allow us to exponentially grow our user base.   [0:03:20] PJ Bruno: That's future-proofing right there man.   [0:03:21] Zoltan Szalas: Exactly.   [0:03:22] PJ Bruno: Very cool. And I just love, like I know we talked about it a little bit, you and I got time to strategize and chat. And I just loved the idea that you're able to run a relatively lean operation with your guys in this big company. And it seems like you guys have already had a bunch of traction. And when I talked to you, you kind of were in the pivot situation where you were able to like, "All right, the stuff we're doing is working. I've gotten this buy-in, and now we're onto bigger and better things."   [0:03:51] Zoltan Szalas: It's interesting because initially, as you said, I was in this position, pivotal moment. And it was really interesting because growth and innovation, sure, you have your growth stack, you have amplitude segment and things like that. But for a company like IBM that's over 100 years old, that's three digits.   [0:04:13] PJ Bruno: Jesus.   [0:04:14] Zoltan Szalas: There aren't a lot of companies in the world that have three digits.   [0:04:17] Taylor Gibb: And definitely not a lot of tech companies in the world. Right?   [0:04:19] Zoltan Szalas: Exactly. Exactly. So you have to ask yourself where does innovation come from? And it really happens within the culture, within the people. And kind of going back to that is when my managers started the growth program, one of the hardest things we had was to get that buy-in. So when people started to see that, "Oh wow, this actually works. This is producing results", then that buy-in comes a lot quicker. And now we're in this luxury place where people are like, "Oh yeah, yeah, do whatever it is that you do. I'm not really sure. But just go do it. And get some amazing results."   [0:04:55] Taylor Gibb: That's great. And you guys have made room then for innovation, right? Other people within your company can feel more empowered to step forward with their ideas to start making these changes. And so it sounds like you're doing the right work.   [0:05:08] PJ Bruno: The way you mentioned it, your first position with IBM, right, you had to get buy-in. You were a team, a guy, that had a solution, that had to go around, kind of shop it around. When you started there, how much was being prescribed to you by your boss and how much was like, "Figure it out"? It's like how much was a mandate and how much was that creative layer for you to like, "All right, let's get weird with it."   [0:05:34] Zoltan Szalas: I was lucky to have great managers who gave me a lot of autonomy. I came on at the early stage of the growth program. So a lot of it was like, "Hey, figure it out, and find people that are willing to work with us to prove out this model."   [0:05:51] PJ Bruno: So long leash then. I mean it just was like, "You're here to make things better."   [0:05:56] Zoltan Szalas: Right.   [0:05:57] PJ Bruno: Go.   [0:05:57] Zoltan Szalas: Exactly. And I just transitioned from a startup of five people. And I'm like, "All right, you want me to execute?" I execute. I did a couple of things and I got yelled at for breaking a couple of pages.   [0:06:11] Taylor Gibb: You got to break a few pages to make an omelet. Isn't that what they say?   [0:06:14] Zoltan Szalas: Exactly. But what I did break the page, it resulted in, I don't know, like the annualized, I broke the page on something and somebody reached out to whoever owns a page. Because IBM's a matrix organization. So there is a person for everything, right? So it's hard to just kind of go in. And my mindset coming from a startup is like, "Okay, this should have been done yesterday. Let's get this done." But IBM doesn't work like that. And you have to figure out. I think the best analogy I got is it's like a duck. The duck floats on top of the water, right? It's very elegant and kind of flows through. But underneath its little legs are churning away.   [0:06:54] PJ Bruno: Mile a minute.   [0:06:54] Zoltan Szalas: Churning away. Exactly. So working on multiple projects and growth initiatives, that's how I figured out. Like how can you execute ... You just have to be able to focus on several things at a time and wait for things to come in.   [0:07:06] PJ Bruno: And you got to break pages. I mean it's a special projects team. If you're not breaking pages you're not doing it right.   [0:07:11] Taylor Gibb: You're doing something wrong.   [0:07:11] Zoltan Szalas: Exactly.   [0:07:12] Taylor Gibb: That's right. And you were working on all the different projects. One of them that PJ actually brought to my attention before we got in the room here was Croissant, which sounds like it started as a hackathon project, and then you were able to make it into this brand and this huge initiative-   [0:07:27] PJ Bruno: A global brand.   [0:07:27] Taylor Gibb: Global brand and initiative. So clearly you weren't just breaking pages, you were really making things happen. Do you mind talking a bit about that?   [0:07:33] Zoltan Szalas: No, I'd love to. And do you guys mind if, my co founder Adam asked me to give him a shout out.   [0:07:39] Taylor Gibb: Oh please.   [0:07:40] Zoltan Szalas: And he wanted me to call him by his code name Savage. Is that okay?   [0:07:45] Taylor Gibb: I think, do you know what?   [0:07:45] PJ Bruno: Do you have a message for him or is it just?   [0:07:47] Zoltan Szalas: Nope, he just wanted me to give him a shout out. Savage.   [0:07:49] Taylor Gibb: That's the first-   [0:07:50] PJ Bruno: Keep breaking pages Savage   [0:07:52] Taylor Gibb: ... The first shout out in Braze for Impact history and I can't think of a way that it could have gone better. Well done. Savage, this one's for you.   [0:07:59] PJ Bruno: We're making history here. Ba-da-bing.   [0:08:01] Zoltan Szalas: Yeah, it came out of a hackathon project. We were working on this business that obviously didn't go anywhere, and one weekend we went to a hackathon and we kind of coded up this product that would essentially allow you to book a seat at a coffee shop. Because that company arose from like a very natural need. We were running around the city, working out of coffee shops. And it was a pain in the ass. Can I say ass?   [0:08:26] Taylor Gibb: You saw that meme yourselves. Yeah.   [0:08:27] PJ Bruno: Yeah, you can, we can't.   [0:08:29] Zoltan Szalas: So it came out of a hackathon project. And in that one weekend we saw so much positive feedback from the people through media, through PR, that we just said, "We have something here." So we did a little bit of market testing. We shopped it around to coffee shops. Coffee shops didn't want it. They're like, "Oh no, no, no. This is a coffee shop. This is a democratic place. Nobody's going to get a seat here." But somebody had given us, like months prior, a map of all the coworking spaces in the city. And there were something like 200. And this was back at the time where the WeWorks was unknown. You would be like, "WeWork." People would be like, "What's WeWork? What's coworking? What's shared office space?"   [0:09:07] Taylor Gibb: Interesting.   [0:09:08] Zoltan Szalas: So we walked in randomly on one day, we're just like, we walked into a coworking space and he said, "Hey, we're building this platform. Would you guys be interested in coming on as a space partner?" And they said yes. And then we said okay. So the supply side is resonating positively. And then we sent out a bunch of emails.   [0:09:28] Taylor Gibb: I think you emailed us.   [0:09:30] PJ Bruno: I know where this is going, sorry.   [0:09:32] Zoltan Szalas: We sent out a bunch of emails advertising our $300 product for MVP that just barely existed, and people bought. So we said, "Okay, we have something here. So what's next?" So we built out the product and we took it from inception to ... we've had over 10,000 customers on the platform. But it's really interesting because the story, as funny as it is, when you're building a business, you have very limited data to work with.   [0:10:03] Taylor Gibb: Sure. You're starting from the ground up.   [0:10:04] Zoltan Szalas: So every feedback you're using as a compass, right? Like, "Okay, this direction makes sense. This direction makes sense." At the very early stages, right, before you're collecting like hundreds of thousands or millions of data points, you're almost using qualitative data to get feedback on which direction to take your company.   [0:10:26] PJ Bruno: Yeah, that's tough though sometimes. Sometimes you, I don't know about you, but I've taken lots of feedback and sometimes I'll give it the wrong weight. I'll take one person's feedback and make some sort of pivot that's going to affect the next quarter or something. So when you have all the data to work with, you have the quantity to work with.   [0:10:45] Zoltan Szalas: Yeah, and you know what it is? You know that saying ignorance is bliss?   [0:10:50] PJ Bruno: Yeah.   [0:10:51] Zoltan Szalas: When I look back on the Croissant journey, it was the most reckless insensible thing I did. Just straight up quit my job and just follow this instinct. Right? But that ignorance is bliss to a degree because you're just following whatever is working. Right? So it's kind of almost a blessing to not have all the data that early on, because you're just, don't take this advice as sound, this is not guarantee, there is no money back guarantee. But if you follow ... Life gives you feedback, people give you feedback, the market gives you feedback. Right? So I think it's important to be proactive and just trying to get that feedback early on. But it was a lot of fun and we scaled it into, we're in over like 120 cities now. And it was a lot of fun.   [0:11:36] Taylor Gibb: Wow. That is incredible. And you got there from following your gut, right?   [0:11:39] Zoltan Szalas: Yeah.   [0:11:40] Taylor Gibb: And trusting those instincts. Are you still able to bring a little bit of that to your day to day when you're at IBM?   [0:11:46] Zoltan Szalas: Yes, but I have to get buy-in.   [0:11:48] PJ Bruno: Got to get that buy-in.   [0:11:50] Taylor Gibb: Some things have to change a little bit. But it sounds like you've been able to build that up.   [0:11:53] Zoltan Szalas: Yeah, and I think IBM is a great learning ground for me. Because at IBM, more of your soft skills have to come into play. They have to come to the foreground. Because you're dealing with cross functional teams that each have their own objectives and a lot of times they're not aligned. So the question becomes is, "Okay, I want to change something on this page. How do I get the development team, the design team, the product team to come together and align to make that change happen?" And that's the biggest difference. When you're running a startup you have an insight and you're like, "Okay, well let's execute on it." You execute on it, you ship it out the door, done. Wait for the feedback loop, iterate or implement or do something else. Right? But with IBM it's been a real amazing time to learn how to use those soft skills. And I'm still able to use, you still go by your gut, like there's patterns that you recognize so you already know like, "Okay, we should do this, we should do this nurture or that nurture." So definitely.   [0:12:57] PJ Bruno: That's so interesting to me, and it just identified a huge gap, and that's obviously understanding technology and your tech stack, that's something that we're all obsessed with. You mentioned soft skills. This isn't the same as leadership or conflict resolution. This is governance across teams. And like how you orchestrate, facilitate those conversations when you're not necessarily getting the right support from up above. So it sounds like you're cutting your teeth doing this stuff, man. This is fantastic.   [0:13:24] Zoltan Szalas: Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. And luckily my managers are all great and the people that I work with are all amazing.   [0:13:31] PJ Bruno: Your team has been stoked just watching you the [crosstalk 00:13:33].   [0:13:33] Zoltan Szalas: They're so supportive.   [0:13:35] PJ Bruno: You can't see it.   [0:13:36] Taylor Gibb: Is Savage out there?   [0:13:37] Zoltan Szalas: Savage is not out there. Savage is at TransferWise.   [0:13:41] PJ Bruno: Well Sav, we're thinking of you buddy.   [0:13:43] Zoltan Szalas: We're thinking of you.   [0:13:45] Taylor Gibb: Oh man. So all right. You've got all these different projects that you've done. You've been able to work within IBM using this startup mindset, but also some of the soft skills that you've learned, and it sounds like you're iterating on there. What I'd be most excited to hear about now is anything that you can share that's coming down the pipeline, for either you and your team at IBM or larger initiatives that you're working on. We want to hear what you're excited about.   [0:14:08] Zoltan Szalas: Personally, I'm really excited about quantum computing.   [0:14:12] PJ Bruno: Oh yeah.   [0:14:13] Zoltan Szalas: Especially since the headlines this week that Google is claiming quantum computing supremacy.   [0:14:19] Taylor Gibb: I hadn't seen this, wait.   [0:14:20] Zoltan Szalas: Yeah.   [0:14:21] PJ Bruno: Yeah. Fill her in.   [0:14:22] Taylor Gibb: Yeah, fill me in on quantum computing. This sounds like Star Trek.   [0:14:25] Zoltan Szalas: It is kind of like Star Trek. So think of the most powerful computer in the world, and X that by 1000 or a million.   [0:14:36] Taylor Gibb: I can't even conceive of it.   [0:14:38] Zoltan Szalas: It's a very strange thing because, unlike traditional computers which work off of a chip, for a quantum computer you're basically emulating an environment where almost atoms and ions are just making the calculations. I mean we haven't been able to run an app on a quantum computer to date, but just kind of Google did something along those lines this past week. But why is that important? The reason that it's important because right now there are so many complex problems out there, whether it's logistics, cyber security, pharmaceuticals, or modeling that even the most powerful computers can't handle those problems. And if quantum computing gets there, we could potentially solve these problems.   [0:15:30] PJ Bruno: Right. You were saying something like a calculation that would normally take weeks or months could be done in seconds, or something like that.   [0:15:38] Zoltan Szalas: Exactly. So there's a really interesting article in Tech Crunch that came out. So Google is claiming they're ahead of the game. And what they did is they did a simulation with the most powerful computer that's available in the world. And I'm forgetting, but I think it's at the University of Waterloo in Canada. The supercomputer took something like a week to produce an outcome, where the quantum computer took I think 200 seconds.   [0:16:03] PJ Bruno: Sounds about right.   [0:16:04] Taylor Gibb: Oh my God.   [0:16:05] Zoltan Szalas: So imagine that power.   [0:16:07] Taylor Gibb: This is not a minuscule change. This is going to absolutely turn everything on its head.   [0:16:11] Zoltan Szalas: Absolutely. Especially if you're looking at anything from ... If you're in security, that's troubling.   [0:16:18] PJ Bruno: That's a red flag.   [0:16:20] Zoltan Szalas: You should start preparing now because those quantum computers will just break your encryption like nothing.   [0:16:27] PJ Bruno: Watch yourself.   [0:16:28] Taylor Gibb: Yeah, geez.   [0:16:29] Zoltan Szalas: Yeah.   [0:16:29] PJ Bruno: Talk about future proofing.   [0:16:30] Taylor Gibb: Yeah seriously.   [0:16:31] Zoltan Szalas: I don't think, I mean you and I, PJ, when we talked that kind of went off crazy philosophical. Like, "Imagine if everybody had this, [inaudible 00:16:38]."   [0:16:37] PJ Bruno: Yeah, we were nerding out. It was not late at night either, it was the middle of the day. Like, "Quantum supremacy, it sounds like the empire. Oh yeah."   [0:16:47] Zoltan Szalas: Yeah. I don't think it'll ever go [inaudible] because I just don't think consumers need that type of computing power. But it's going to be interesting to see what happens when governments get ahold of it, and major corporations get a hold of it.   [0:16:58] PJ Bruno: God save us all.   [0:16:59] Taylor Gibb: And the hands of you at IBM, breaking pages. Be careful over there. Quantum page breaking.   [0:17:06] PJ Bruno: Quantum page break.   [0:17:08] Taylor Gibb: [inaudible 00:17:08]. Oh my God. Well, thank you.   [0:17:09] PJ Bruno: No better way to end it I guess than-   [0:17:11] Taylor Gibb: I was going to say, you've made me excited about what you're excited about here. I'm going to look into quantum computing right after this podcast. But in the meantime, thank you so much for joining us. It's been great speaking with you and hearing all about this great stuff.   [0:17:23] Zoltan Szalas: Awesome. This was a lot of fun. Thank you guys for having me.   [0:17:25] Taylor Gibb: Oh definitely.   [0:17:25] PJ Bruno: Absolutely man.   [0:17:26] Taylor Gibb: PJ, as always, thank you so much.   [0:17:28] PJ Bruno: So very welcome. Great to be here.   [0:17:30] Taylor Gibb: And all of you on the line, thanks again for dialing in. This is Taylor Gibb, CSM, Braze for Impact. We'll catch you next time. [0:17:37]

J:  I have a friend of mine, whose name is Ben, and he's going to talk about some of the anxiety situations he's gotten himself into, and what he did to get himself out of them. Hi Ben. B: How are you doing, John? J: Just fine, thanks. What I'd like to do, if you don't mind, is to go through seven of the eight kinds of anxiety and just ask you if you've experienced them, and maybe a little bit about what you've done about them. I'm going to skip the first one, which is simple anxieties, such as claustrophobia or agoraphobia, because they are very common. The first one I want to talk about is social phobia. That includes things like giving speeches or going to parties. Things like that. Do you think you have any social phobias? B: I wouldn't say I have a social phobia. I'm a bit of a performer, and kind of an extrovert, but I also really don't like being around people all the time. I kind of describe myself as an extroverted introvert. J; That's fine, Ben. But that's pretty clearly not anxiety. Let's move on to the third one, which is separation anxiety. Do you experience any separation from anybody as being particularly frightening. B: Not particularly, no. J: Ok fine. The fourth one is generalized anxiety. What about that? B: Yeah. I'm pretty much always anxious about something, or just have a sense of anxiety, whether its towards any specific thing or not. J: When you feel kind of anxious about something, What do you do about it? What helps you? B: It's always something different. Thats something I’ve learned, that you can't always use one coping strategy for every situation, you have to try different things for different situations and figure it out, and even if its a similar situation to one you've had before, sometimes the same solution won't work. J: Boy, are you absolutely right about that. You've got to have a number of arrows in your quiver in order to hit the target, that's for sure. Now I do want to mention this: some research that my colleagues and I did with large numbers of young adults, the results were that males, about seventy-five percent of males do much better with physical techniques of relaxing such as tightening all your muscles and letting them go, or deep breathing, and the women, about seventy-five percent of them, worked much better with mental things. That includes imagining yourself by a nice, quiet lake, or that you're listening to a chorus of monks singing. So are you more like the males here or the twenty five percent category? B: I think I'm more towards the twenty five percent. Of course there's deep breathing that works occasionally, but mental stimulation tends to help me more, so I think more the twenty five percent. J: Can you tell us what kind of imagery that you tend to seek when you're feeling anxious? B; Yeah, I think of people who I love, or good times I've had. Sometimes I'll sing a little song in my head that I enjoy, or just try to make up a story to distract myself. J: I seem to remember that one of your favorite songs is “oh la de da” is that correct? B: (laughing) Absolutely! J: That's an inside joke. Ok. Number five on our list: agoraphobia. Kind of not liking to be away from home very much. B: Yeah, kind of. Not super, but a little bit yeah. J: What typifies the situation where you don't like being away from home. Is it a long trip to a strange place? Or what would categorize this? B: Something I can't get out of. So if I can't escape to calm down, or if I'm kind of stuck in a place that causes me some anxiety, if I'm not in a place I feel safe. J: That brings up an interesting point, Ben. I have the same thing. Especially if I go to somebody's house for dinner and I find myself to be surprised to find myself quite bored by  the conversation, I don't experience it as boring and that I've just got to get through it. I experience it as being trapped, being claustrophobic, and of course that makes it a lot worse for me. So very often you get to a place where you just as soon would not go out with friends or whatever. I remember back in 1984 I almost got housebound. Just didn't want to go any place. Have you had anything like that? B: Yes, I think when I was younger, like middle school age, I was going through a lot and just couldn't make it outside or go anywhere J: Ok. Have you ever experienced a panic attack. One of those very sharp and very strong anxieties, even to the point where you feel like maybe you are going to die or something terrible is going to happen to you. B: Absolutely. Unfortunately I've experienced that many, many times. J: I'm sorry to hear that. Can you tell me the circumstances that typically brings it out? B: Usually it's a result of many things piling up over time and then I just can't handle it anymore and I snap. J: Yeah somebody I was talking to, a woman recently who had been through a very long, difficult period of time, and she said when she thought it was going to be over, all of a sudden she experienced a panic attack. She said to me “ I always thought that people who said they were having a panic attack were just trying to get out of something, they were malingering or whatever” she said “ but I've had two of them now and they're just awful. They seem to come on you all of a sudden” and Ben you've probably heard me talk about the analogy to a stampede. If you don't pay attention to the early warning signs of a panic attack, and we do get them, we just don't pay attention to them. Sometimes we just don't want to think about it. Then the next thing you know the cows are up and they are running and it's too late, you've got a stampede on your hands, so you need to try to be more responsive and ore aware of the fact that you're on the verge of a panic attack and cut it off at the pass. Does that make sense to you? B: Yeah absolutely, that’s something that's allowed me to have far fewer panic attacks. J: That's terrific. I'm so glad to hear that. Number seven is Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I happen to have known you for a long time, and I know that at least at one time, when you were only four years old, you were collecting rocks on the beach, and your mother said “that's enough rocks” and you said “ no I have to collect them all'' and she said you just can't, we don't have any room for all the rocks on the beach, and you started to cry and I remember I thought “wow it looks like he's got OCD.” At such an early age I'd never seen it before. Did that turn out to be true? B: Absolutely. And my OCD has kind of evolved over the ages from needing to collect things to search for symmetry, and a need for tradition and keeping certain activities, and doing them the same way whenever I do them. J: Well those are some excellent examples of what happens when somebody has OCD. As you know, it's obsessions which are thoughts, and compulsions which are behaviors, but they are both pretty much the same thing. I make the analogy to superstitions. Superstitions tend to come about because somebody says, you know the old story “Don't step on a crack, you'll break your mother's back” and so you avoid stepping on a crack and when you get home you find out that indeed, your mother's back  is not broken, and we laugh about that but that's kind of the syndrome to the extreme of OCD, is that you learn that if you double check the oven to make sure you turned it off, or that the iron is turned off, or that the water is not running, then you feel better; relieved because of this. And it may be that you are trying to punish yourself for these thoughts. I don't know.  But at any rate you feel a lot better when you go and check so what you learn from that is id better always go back and check. Does that sound right? B: Yeah that's a description of OCD I hear often. But sometimes it's like that for me, but it's also less superstition in other cases, many other cases. It's just I feel a kind of existential dread or extreme discomfort until I perform an action or do a certain thing a certain way. J: So it sounds to me like theres the threat of a panic attack, and it is relieved by doing something obsessive or compulsive. Does that make sense to you? B: Yes it could be described that way. But there's always a wide variety of things that could determine whether or not I feel a certain way about something. J: there's one more, which I presume you do not have, because you haven't been in the military, at least not yet. And that's Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Do you think you have any signs of that? B: No, I don't think so J: Well Ben, this has been very helpful. This was exactly what I was looking for when I invited you to be on the podcast. And I think you've given us some really good examples of what these various kinds mean. I hope we'll get a chance to talk again sometime.   B: Hopefully so! I'd be happy to come back.

Running the Numbers With Drue from 4Front Josh: Good day everyone out there in podcast world. We've got a special guest here, Drue, and he does some pretty cool stuff. And actually, you know what? I'm going to get you to tell me what you do, the voodoo that you do, and how that's impacting businesses around Southeast Queensland? Get more tips from Drue Schofield at dorksdelivered.com.au Drue: Yeah, thanks Josh. Nice intro. I don't know that we're that exciting. Josh: Aww, come on. Drue: But that was a very exciting introduction. We're accountants. Look, no, all jokes aside, we think we're quite personable people. Yeah, we're accountants. We're a full-service accounting and advisory taxation business or service. We deal mainly in the small to medium business space. We do self-managed super fund administration and advisory with our SMSF clients, whether they are still working, building businesses, contributing to super or they're self-funded retirees, and we also do quite a bit of work with property investors and developers, making sure they're structured well and giving them advice along the way, whilst being in a position to help our clients leverage our network. I spend a lot of time, personally, networking with allied professionals and pretty much anyone. I just like to be a conduit for business and people that are doing things and have ambition, and if I can connect you, or one of my clients, or someone with someone else that they need to talk to, to solve their problem, then that makes me really happy. Josh: Cool. Okay. So I guess you covered a couple of things there that spiked my interest. One of them was the podcast worldwide audience, in Australia, we call a small to medium business, I would have said, five to 200 employees. Yeah? Would you agree? About that? Drue: Yeah, about that. Yeah. Josh: Yeah. Where in America, anything less than 200 is small, it's backyard mom and dad shop, isn't it? Drue: Yeah, they seem to have a different view on business over there. Unless you're over 250 employees or whatever, they don't really even count. Josh: A blimp. Nothing. Drue: To a degree. I mean, I had some association with businesses and professionals over there when clients needed to utilise services in the U.S. and Europe as well. But yeah, certainly, everything's bigger and better in America. Sometimes. Josh: So one of the things that I've noticed when I've been talking with you versus other accountants, in bits and pieces that we've spoken with is, you seem down to earth, to the point, and humanable. Drue: Oh, thanks. Josh: If that makes sense. Drue: Yeah, yeah. Josh: Less robotic. Drue: Yeah, yeah. Look, accountants have a bad stereotype. Look, I like to think I'm the new wave or part of the new wave or the new age of accountants. Josh: I'm not helping the IT look! Drue: No, you look very trendy, except for the glasses that have no lenses by the way, for people out there. But no, they look really good. I was offered to wear some, but I chose not to. I'm a contact lens wearer, anyway. Drue: Look, we are. We're approachable. I don't know if fun loving is the right word, but we enjoy what we do. That said, we're serious. We give serious advice and sophisticated advice to people when they need it. We're succinct, we're to the point, we remove jargon. If a client doesn't understand what we're doing, we just go over it again and again until they do. Hopefully, not too many times, and usually not too many times. We usually get it on the first or second go, but we're not here to preach to people, we're not here to talk down to people, we're here to educate people. And if clients don't understand what they're doing and getting themselves into, you can bet your bottom dollar, that's where there's going to be problems, so we want to avoid that at all costs. We have those full and frank conversations without fear or favour. The clients know what they're doing, why they want to do it. We get a good understanding of that, and then we give the advice tailored to that particular situation. Josh: I think you listed four F's then. And I guess if everything's going right, you don't hear a fifth one. Drue: No, that's right. We won't talk about the fifth one. There's enough doom and gloom out there today and we don't need to feed any more panic or doom and gloom, I don't think. Josh: Not at all. So I can see a lot of similarities in what you guys do and what we do. We try to simplify technical problems. We try to make sure that people are able to understand and assimilate with what their end goal is. And we use technology as the fulcrum to achieve that. And in a non technical, gobbledygook, terahertz and gigaflops type words, we try and make sure it's all human understandable, readable stuff. It doesn't matter if you're a mechanic or a doctor or whatever it is, or anything in between, you're able to work out. You know there's a problem, we can see that there's a solution, and we use, as I said, technology for that. Josh: So one of the things, I know, when I first started out in business, was I was scared shitless about doing the accounting thing and doing it wrong. So I went and bought a bunch of a bunch of books and got any of the different government books that I could get on GST, and I don't know if you've ever had the opportunity to read those, their ... Drue: I've read them all. Josh: They're exciting, aren't they? Drue: No, they're not. Josh: No they're not. So I'm reading all this stuff, and at that stage I was at uni reading all these books on GST and BAS, and everything else, when I'm on the train to uni. It wasn't fun and it didn't make me feel any better off, because I guess it's kind of like me trying to pretend I'm a doctor or pretend I'm a mechanic, when I'm not. Drue: Sometimes it's good to just eat the sausage, Josh, and not know what gone into it. Josh: Exactly. I agree. Drue: If you use that as an analogy. Not that we don't explain what goes into it. Josh: I like that. That's good. I've always said, "You can teach a man to fish and he'll have food for life, but some people just don't like fishing." Drue: That's right. Josh: They just don't. Drue: Some people don't like fish either. Josh: Exactly. So that's getting a professional to do the voodoo that they do, is better than you trying to do everything and wear another hat. Drue: Yeah, it's crucial. I can't underline, underscore, bold, italic, asterisk enough that it's crucial to get really good advice. Whether you're just starting out in business, or starting out doing a development, or considering setting up a self-managed super fund, or whatever the case may be. Or you've been in business for two, three years and things are going well, or you're an established business, I can't stress enough how important it is to get accurate, timely advice, from someone that wants to be a key partner in your business. I mean that's our tagline. "Your key partner in business," that's who we aim to be. I believe we achieve that all the time with all of our clients. We want to see businesses survive and thrive, and grow and flourish, and do really well. And if we can be a part of that journey and connect them to good people and give good advice, then again, as I said before, that makes us really happy. Josh: Cool, cool, cool. And I think that's important there. Key. Good advice. And knowing what's out there, one of the things that I found out about years into business, was the R&D grants in bits and pieces. Drue: Yeah, sure. Josh: Do you guys work with those? Drue: We do a little bit in that space. Those things become more technical and more specialised. What I'd rather do more so than try to do it, is we've got people we work with, people we will then refer our clients to that are specialists in that area. And then I guess that's another thing that is a benefit of myself and 4Front Accountants. If we don't know something, we're not afraid to put our hand up and say, "Hey, we've got a rough idea about this, we know enough to be dangerous, but it's now time to go and talk to a professional." Josh: Yep. Drue: And the other thing we'll do there in that situation, is rather than just push the boat out and say, "See you later, hopefully, you hit land," we'll make the connection with that person, and if needs be, we'll attend the meeting and facilitate the process. So again, we want to be your key partner, our client's key partner in business. We'll really hold their hand through that process. Drue: And R&D is a really good example. Whilst we know enough about it, again, to be dangerous and how it all comes together, there's specialists that we work with and that's all they do. R&D in grant work. So R&D is research and development. Sorry, I'm using an acronym and I should explain it. Josh: I should have as well. Drue: That's all right. Not a problem. It's easy when you're a professional and you're working with ABCs and one, two, threes, and EFDs, and ATOs, and ELDs, to just rattle things off. But yeah, R&D, research and development. And whilst I'm there, a little plug for the current government and preceding governments, that someone had the foresight to bring that sort of thing in, because that's helped a lot of our clients tremendously. And I'm not even joking, millions of dollars. Josh: Absolutely. It was a game changer for us. Drue: In real cash. Josh: We've already been developing products, already been developing integrations into LinkedIn that can speed up the process to find new clients. We've developed these different processes within businesses to be able to integrate phones in bits and pieces, and we were already doing all this stuff, and then someone told me about it and I went, "Oh shit, this exists? This is a thing? Why isn't this spoken about more?" Drue: It's an often overlooked or ill-considered thing, it feels like the ATO and the government's always here to do things to you, but when you're a small business person, within reason, it does do things for you as well. I mean, we'll probably touch on it later, but the government's just neutered some stimulus package that's aimed mainly at business and it's actually really good, and it should get things going and hopefully quell some of the fear and panic out there that business owners have. God, I've had three phone calls today and two emails last night about it already. So we're actually sending out a communication and a newsletter form that summaries things clearly, succinctly, no jargon, so that clients have one source. So 4Front Accountants clients have one source to go to, look at, and say, "Okay, great, now I understand it." And we'll get more phone calls and that's fine, we'll explain it. Drue: But going back to what I was talking about, things like the R&D concessions and grants, and those sorts of things, governments are there to do things for business, not always to business. Josh: Yeah. And that's something that I was a big mindset shift that I had around 2016, 2015, 2016, when I started going for the R&D concession. I didn't know it existed, already been in business at that stage since 2007, so I'd been around for long enough that I should have heard something out there, but I hadn't. That was kind of a, "Oh I mean all this wasted money," but I went, "Well, I'm not going out of business." All this potential. And it's only one of the things that I've seen out there. Like there's advantages to employing, there's digital business grants and bits and pieces out there. There's a whole bunch of different things where the government is giving out a whole bunch of money. Josh: There was a programe which I was involved with a little while ago that would subsidise the hourly rates of IT staff, and all sorts of things like that. And I just went, "Wow, this is this cool stuff. How didn't I know about this?" And it's just everyone has that predefined thought, belief system that they're out there to take and not give. Drue: Look, it's a symptom that we see with clients all the time. They're too busy doing it, doing it, doing it. They're stuck working in their business and not on it. And that's the sort of focus that we try to shift, and a mindset we try to change with clients that, "Hey, you need to work on your business and not in it." We've got the tools, the expertise, and the advice and products to actually help clients work more on their business and not in it. And things like that come up all the time. Drue: Now it's quite possible that your accountant that you're working with at the time knew about it and didn't tell you or may not have known about it at all. But I can assure people listening that at 4Front Accountants, there are the sorts of things that we've got a finger on the pulse with. Again, we're not experts, we don't understand those things, but we're certainly aware of them. We find out enough about it. I certainly do read about it, and I know my people at 4Front Accountants do as well. We read about it enough and know enough about it to be dangerous, and then to know who to hand that on to, so that we can explain that situation to that particular expert, and then guide our client in the right path, with the right person, so that they get the result that they want. Josh: And that's what you want to get with anyone in the professional services industry. You don't necessarily want them to be the one stop shop. You want to them to know the shops you can go to Drue: You can't be all things to all people. And when you do, you will fail, immediately. Josh: Yep. Drue: And you shouldn't be. I mean, there's specialists in every field. I mean if you've got a problem with your knee, you might start at the GP, but you'll soon be referred to, potentially, an orthopedic surgeon. The GP isn't going to be there, but he's developed a relationship with that person to know that's the best orthopedic surgeon for your particular problem. I mean, we're the same. We're not solicitors, we're not finance brokers, we're not financial advisors yet. We're not R&D grant specialists or whatever the case might be, but we've got a really good network and we spend a lot of time building relationships with the people that will help our clients, so that we can continually prove our mantra or our motto, tagline, that we are your key partner in business. Josh: That's really important. Just knowing that you've got that one point of contact and that- Drue: It's terrific when people come to you and they say, "Drue, I need this," or my business partner, Carmine Decorso, they might go to Carmine and say, "Hey Carmine, we need this," and we'd say, "Yep, sure. We know someone. We'll give them a call now. We'll connect you. If you want us to come to the meeting, we can do that as well." Josh: Yep. So where would you say you sit with businesses? Do you start at anything from bookkeepers and all the way up, like a CFO type level? Drue: Yeah, we do a lot, I mean I guess our core competency is compliance work. When people think of accountants, they think of people that will do financial statements and tax returns to a solid, accurate level. They'll complete those income tax returns to a point where they're not paying a dollar more or less tax than they should. And if they're lucky, they might get a little bit of business advice. Drue: Now, we kind of turn that on its head a little bit, insofar that we recognise and realise the compliance is important, and certainly we feel our clients don't pay a dollar more or less tax than they should. And we work really hard to make sure that things are done properly, correctly, and legally. You certainly don't want to do anything that's illegal, nor do we. Where our point difference is, we do sort of act in that external CFO type arrangement, where we like to work with our clients more often than once or twice a year. We do that through something we've termed our Board of Advice programe, where we sit down with our clients quarterly, and I like to call them 90 day success cycles, which I believe is a McKinsey & Co term, the management consultants. So again, shows you the literature that people at 4Front Accountants are reading. We're not just reading the boring textbooks. Whilst they are important, they're not terribly exciting, but we've got to go through them. I'm more interested in things that are going to help our business clients survive, grow, and thrive. But yeah, we run our Board of Advice program with most of our business clients or as many as we can. They see a lot of value in that. Drue: So what is the Board of Advice program? As I alluded to, we work in quarterly cycles with our clients. We run to an agenda. We focus on the financial performance of the business and we do some business analysis around that on quarterly numbers, usually comparing the current quarter to the same quarter this time last year. And then the December quarter that we've just finished with our Board of Advice clients now, it's really interesting, because you've got six months of data this year, and you've got six months of data from the previous year, so you can really have a really good snapshot of where the business is at. Sometimes just comparing this quarter this year to this quarter last year isn't enough. Likewise, comparing the 2019 year, we've just finished it, to the 2018 year, doesn't really tell you a lot. It's a little bit too far in the past. I always tease clients that we're not here to write history with them, we're here to make history, and that's what we really try to do. Josh: I guess one of the things that I've always thought is, "Man, okay, you'll have a good quarter, you have an awesome quarter, and then you'll have a bad quarter." And when you've been in business long enough, they can't all be home runs, can they? Drue: Sadly, not. Josh: No. Well I think you can't enjoy the good without the bad, so it really lets you appreciate the good. Drue: Your sweet and savoury. Josh: Yeah, that's right. So I think and I see a lot of people around the place that are, "Oh my goodness, you wouldn't believe what happened, the line was so long at the shops." Well, there's kids starving in Africa and you're worried about the line at the shops. Drue: They're probably buying toilet paper. Josh: That's exactly right. So you have a look at these things and you think, "Okay, you need to get a bit of reality check." And I think the best thing to do is to have the bad times so that you can appreciate the good times. And not necessarily, I'm not wishing anything upon anyone that complains about mundane and first world problems, but yeah, you definitely need to have the bad ones. But if you have a bad one, sometimes that could be something that's spread further than just your business, and a lot of people are worried about a recession and things. Nevertheless, the data that you have, that you can help businesses out with, you mentioned forecasting. Are you able to see trends across the businesses that you work with? Drue: Absolutely. We see stuff all the time. Josh: So if someone said, "Oh, I've had a bad quarter," and you go, "Look, I understand. We've got five other businesses that are in the same sector as you that are also feeling the pressure." Is that something- Drue: Yeah, it is. I mean, we're growing, we're growing all the time. And we want to keep growing. We've got fairly big aspirations as to where 4Front Accountants will land in my lifetime as a business, so the more clients we have, the more data we have. Now, obviously everything's confidential so we don't share other people's information, but we can talk about things generally. Drue: So we're seeing that with particular trade's clients, or we're seeing that with medical professional clients, or we're seeing that with Josh: Retails. Drue: Clients in, yeah, retail, whatever the case may be. You get a general feel, you work with enough clients, you just end up with, as an accounting firm, you end up with a natural cluster, because if you've got an accounting business like we do, you're dealing with a lot of different businesses all the time, and we're almost solely business these days, which is the path we want to keep going on. So you see little clusters. Drue: It's really important, though, to not have a five week view of things. You need to have a quarterly, that 90 day success cycle view of things, or that six monthly, one year, three years, five years. Now, the further you stretch out, the harder it is to plan. Josh: Otherwise, it gets a bit wonky, but at least you're walking it. Drue: You can, but you've got to have a plan. You've got to have a plan. So one of the things that's really important, I think, for clients is to do some forecasting, and then you give yourself some measurements or some numbers to measure your current performance against. Like you said, Josh, you're going to have bad quarters, and that's just how things are. It might be because of seasonality, it might be because there's a hereto incurable virus sweeping across the world, who knows? But it's important to take a longer term view of things and look at your business and say, "Okay, is there anything that's fundamentally wrong with the business now?" Most business people will have a gut feeling, that's why they are entrepreneurs and that's why they are business people, they tend to go with their gut. Perhaps more. It's sort of an intuitive thing, but I think probably harking right back to the advice piece I was talking about before, you can't underestimate the power and the value of good, succinct, solid, financial advice, sitting down with your accountant or your advisor. We're becoming more advisors than accountants these days because of the number of clients that are starting to take up our Board of Advice program. Drue: And if you do it in a logical, methodical way, with some structure, I mean all our Board of Advice program meetings that we have each quarter run to an agenda. We talk about the financial analysis of the business, sure, but there are other things that come up as well. They become a bit open slather, we like to look at whatever clients are comfortable talking about, and that sway into personal issues as well, which means you've got to have a whole subset of other networks available to you. That might be psychologists and psychiatrists or other healthcare professional people. Josh: You're offering counselling, nearly. Drue: Well not quite. Josh: You're not wanting to but Drue: Well, look, unless you're in business, you really don't understand and appreciate how much it really becomes part of your psyche, and it becomes your identity. Josh: Absolutely. Drue: And we've had clients, unfortunately, that have had businesses go under, where we haven't been appointed as advisors quick enough, and we haven't been able to make changes early enough. And it's really sad. And sometimes these aren't young people, sometimes these are well established people in their 30's or 40's or 50's where industries have changed and they've been left behind. And that's really, really sad. Drue: Now in some instances, there's probably not much you can do, but I think if you had the chance to get to them early, maybe run this Board of Advice program that's quite structured, which is almost like a mini board of directors, the way we run it, given its got an agenda, and it really does add a bit of corporate governance and accountability, which is important. It's something that I think is lacking more generally in the small business world. People sort of get their hammer and level, and off they go, and they're a builder, or they take their- Josh: All the cowboys out there. They try their best- Drue: Yeah, they are. I guess there are Cowboys out there and they do try their best, but they may not have appreciated the advice that they could get off a good accountant and business advisor. And I like to think that if our clients, and future clients, start to work with us closer with this Board of Advice program, the amount of accountability adds is tremendous. And it's going to get good results, because we're spending that time to sit with our clients and we're their professional sounding board. They can throw anything they like at us. We'll have our own insights and our own observations, which we can give advice around and make changes. And I've done that with clients recently. Drue: I had a plumbing client recently that is new to the firm, and he reported a $20,000 loss last year, and he couldn't work out why. I sat down with- Josh: I bet he pulled that coin from out of his house or something like that, or a personal asset, or that's, I guess, advice that you'd be giving. Drue: Yeah, so I've sat down with him, looked at the numbers, and he said, "Okay, well there's a $20,000 loss here." Yeah. And the businesses is now in lost territory again for the last two quarters. On a quick analysis, I've worked out that his GP, his gross profit line is wrong. So he didn't have the right numbers in there. Once I put the right numbers in there, whilst it was still bad, it made the data more realistic, and it told a better story. Josh: So gutter in, gutter out. Drue: That's right. So the issue in this particular, and this is a real life example here, in this particular client situation, he was having an over reliance on subcontractors and labour hire, and we feel he wasn't marking up the materials he was buying enough. So we did just a quick little "for example" calculation of if he replaced this person with this person and this with that and perhaps got rid of some of the labour hire and some of subcontractor at work, and replace that with a more permanent workforce, and then changed the markup he was putting on the cost of sales, we were able to turn it into an $86,000 profit. Josh: Yep. Huge. Drue: Massive turnaround. That's a $106,000 turn around. Now it's easy to say, "Oh yeah, that's great, Drue, but that's all theory. You may not get that immediately." But if you change your mindset, and you're working with your advisor or your accountant each quarter, and you're looking at those things and making that the most important thing, I always say that which is measured is that which is achieved, you're going to get somewhere near it. You might not get to the $86,000 profit the first year, but gosh, you might get $20,000 profit or $30,000. Going to be better than a $20,000 loss, surely. Josh: You can't turn a ship on a dime. Drue: No. Josh: It takes time. Drue: It takes time. And I guess the Board of Advice programe we're running, it's really helping clients to see the power of accountability and meeting and taking advice and acting on it. Josh: I agree. It's something that people need to have. And this is something ... I was talking to someone else earlier on today- Drue: And if you haven't worked out, I'm pretty passionate about it. Josh: I've noticed. Yeah, yeah. Drue: Well, I want to see people do well. I mean my parents were small business owners and- Josh: Yeah, what did they do? Drue: Builder. Dad's a builder. Had some really good success over the years, but I think he could have done better if he'd had, perhaps better advice, more frequently. And I really think any business, whether you're really successful or you're moderately successful or you're doing okay, will benefit from better quality advice more frequently. Josh: Well, I found, when I first started out in business, my uncle at a company that he was running for many years, and engineers or teachers is pretty much everyone else. So I always thought you can do anything you put your mind to, but that was misinterpreted as you do everything that you can and you put your mind to. And so that then meant when I became a business, started, I'll put in my prepubescent voice, "Let's start a business. I'm really excited to see where this goes." And then I went, "Shit, there's a lot to do." And so I had to become the marketer, the salesperson, the manager, the entrepreneur. Drue: Chief cook and bottle washer. Josh: Exactly. Exactly. All and everything of the above. So I slowly, slowly worked out that this isn't for me. And then went, "Let's stop this and start employing the right people and having the right people do what they enjoy doing," and do what brings you the money in. So that was a great shift and I've never looked back. Having the right people there to give you the advice though, and make sure you are making the right decisions is important. Drue: I think it's critical. It's critical to the success of success or failure of a particular business or enterprise. It just really is. Josh: It doesn't matter the size of your business either. I think it's critical straightaway. We go into people's networks a lot and we see problems and problems and we go, "Oh, why is it set up like that?" Or, "Why is it done like that?" And it's just because the advice that they were given was they thought they know, liked, and trusted that person, trusted the advice, and it was just poor advice. And so for all of our clients that we work with, we say, "Look, we want you, every six months or however often you feel necessary, get another IT company in here and see if we're doing the best job for you." And that gives them the full input and knowledge that we're fully transparent, we're very confident in what we're doing, and we know we're doing right for businesses. Drue: The fact that you're prepared to frank your ability with that, I'd imagine no clients do that, because they know that you back yourself. Josh: Very few. And one of them said, "Oh, who would you suggest?" And I said, "That kind of takes away from the point of it, doesn't it?" Drue: Yeah, that's not independent. If you're suggesting someone, it's not really independent. Josh: Any professional services that they have that they're employing in their business, whether it be financial advisors, accountants, solicitors, IT people, anyone that is doing something that you can't touch and feel and know that the product is good and the outcome is good. Drue: Intangible. Josh: Yeah, intangible products or intangible services, you need to be able to have someone go in there and make sure that Oz behind the curtain is pulling the right strings and doing the right thing for you. Josh: So we had someone come to us about a month ago and they were asking us if we could help them out with some of their LinkedIn marketing stuff. And I said, "Yeah, we can definitely do that. We can go through the process and do the voodoo that we do." And I bought the pricing, he goes, "Oh. Okay, we'll have a think about it." And I thought, "Oh, 'have a think about it' means you're probably going to check out someone else. That doesn't matter. Josh: Anyway, he called us back a month later. So just the Monday just gone. And said, "Josh, I need you to review what's going on with my LinkedIn." I had a look and he went with this company to go through and market him on LinkedIn. And I thought, "All right." And I had a look and they were doing nothing. They bought a $50 product. They took his scripts, and they were using this $50 product to automate the messages that were being sent out, and then charging them $1,500 a month to try and make new connections on LinkedIn. And I said, "You are absolutely been being taken for a run mate." I said, "This is terrible." I said, "The product they're using is this ... " and pointed it out here. And I said, "This is what they're using. It's $50." And that's $50 U.S. I said, "But that's $50. And then you've shown me what you've given me and all of this information, they've just entered that, copied it out of your document into these fields. Then they've just set the days of when they're going to send these messages to people." I said, This is terrible. You're really spending $1,500?" He goes, "I feel sick." I said, "Maybe $500 if they're managing everything and they're doing a phone call." For what they're doing, I said, "They're on selling a product with 30 times mark up, 3000% mark up." I'm like, "That's ridiculous." Drue: Vaporware. Josh: Yeah. And anyway, what I'm getting at is it's always important to have someone there check out what's going on. I myself have had only a couple of bookkeepers over the 13 years we've been in business, and when I got the second bookkeeper, she went, "Oh man, look what the first bookkeeper's been doing," and I thought, "Oh, well that's probably what you're going to say anyway," but it's good just to have people double check, just to make sure that your work is aligned. Drue: Yeah. It can't hurt. Josh: Right. What's the hurt in it? Nothing, yeah. Drue: Look, very rarely do we have clients do that, because they're confident in what we do and how we do it. Now, I will say often I have meetings with prospective clients. It probably starts out as a second opinion meeting, but once I start talking about what we're going to do and demonstrate that, it soon becomes a first opinion meeting, because they've become clients, which is nice. Josh: Yeah. But that's what you want. Drue: Absolutely. Josh: And that just shows when you think, obviously without knowing the relationship- Drue: And it doesn't mean their advisors aren't good, it just means they're not as good as us. Josh: Yeah. Not on the ball enough or not keeping in contact enough. And that's imperative, like relationships. We're all about automation and everything that we produce is all around automation and uptime for businesses, but we'd never suggest to automate the human touch. Now we're sitting here having a podcast together, doing an interview together. Drue: In the same room. Josh: In the same room. Drue: As humans. Josh: We can high five. Drue: Yep. Josh: That was terrible, let's try one that makes a noise. There we go. And when you look at, we could have done this over Zoom, we could have used technology, we could have done all these other different things, but that's a start and end, and then there's nothing there. And I think the world is becoming too digitised in ways that they should be humanised. Drue: Yeah. It's not as organic. Our Board of Advice meetings, we have a handful, occasionally, that are done on a Zoom or a Skype call, but for the most part, I like to do them face to face, either in our office or in our boardroom, which is all kitted out and nice and comfortable and easy to have the meetings there, or at the client's premises, more than happy to do that. But I prefer and okay, yeah, it would be quicker, it would save me half an hour, 45 minutes each way in a car. It would save the client half an hour, 45 minutes each way in the car. So okay, you'd pick up an hour, an hour and a half. Big deal. In the overall scheme of things, more than happy to go to a client's premises and meet with them or their home, if that's where they're comfortable doing it. I don't mind. Drue: But the important thing is they're in the flesh, eyeballing each other. It's seeing body language, seeing expression. Josh: You can feel the emotion. Drue: And they can see, I hope, sometimes our passion or my passion for what I'm trying to do and where I'm trying to help them get with their business. And I can see their passion or their frustration or their concern or fear or panic or jubilation that they've .... We've had an action list that we set last time and they've done it all and they'll say, "See Drue, I did it all. You didn't think I would, did you?" I'm like, "No, no, I never said that." Or where the labour a point, they look at something and they say, "Well look, we didn't get this action point and here's why." And we can sit there and we can talk about it. I don't think we will ever, ever technologize, digitise, or supersede, the human to human interaction. Drue: No. Josh: If we did, the UN would be done completely via video link, and there would be no need for everyone to fly into Brussels or wherever they do, and have a face to face meeting. Drue: No G20s, none of that stuff. Josh: It'll be all gone. Drue: If you think about bigger businesses with business deals, they still fly to Japan or to China or to the U.S. or to London, wherever it is, and they sit down. They might break bread and have a meal together, but they sit in the room and they sign the papers. And there's no need to do that usually, but there's a real human need or craving to be in the company of other human beings. Josh: There's something there that you can't feel otherwise. Drue: Yeah. Josh: When you do it over the phone, you can hear tonalities in voices, but you can't really feel the impact of that person being there. It generally doesn't go longer than the, "Okay. We've started, we've had a small amount of banter. We've spoken about it. We've concluded. We've said bye." There's not that, let's get to know the real you moments that you get when you talk and catch up with people. Drue: It's like a 5D factor, I think, I call it. So not 3D because 3D's easy on the video, and we all know about 4D now, but 5D's you're in their presence, without trying to get too spiritual, you can feel their being. And it's really good. And that's what we want with our clients. We want them to see our passion and feel our passion, and we like to see theirs and feel their passion for their business as well, because that's their livelihood, that's their thing. And as I said, toward the start, that's their identity sometimes. So they're really proud of that and we want to bask in that pride as well. Josh: Well, I guess we've been going through a few bits and pieces here, and I'd like to finish up and ask how would people go about contacting you and make sure that their business is going in the right direction and they're not freaking out, their numbers are doing things wrong. How can they get that second opinion that might turn into the first opinion? Drue: Look, the best way is to send me an email or give me a call. If you go to 4Front.net dot.as, or to Drue, and that's D-R-U-E.schofield@4front.net.au, or find me on LinkedIn. More than happy to have a conversation, cost and obligation free. We can sit down, we can talk about what you're doing, how you're doing it, what your expectations are, where you think there might be some potential gaps in the advice you're getting now, and we can give you the cut of edge, and then you can see whether you think that's something that appeals to you and that you might see value in. So yeah. Josh: A yachting term, I love that. I love that. I'm a bit of a keen yachtie myself. Is there any questions that you'd like me to ask or that you'd like to ask of me? Drue: No, I think we've covered some great ground there. Don't ask me to repeat all that, because I don't necessarily know what I said, but I just hope that people listening can get a good feel and a good sense for the passion that we have. Yes, we're accountants, and we've got a bad stereotype of being boring and maybe a bit mundane, but I hope, Josh can attest to me not being like that. Josh: Absolutely. No, no, no, not at all. I'd say you'd go and have a beer with me if I offered it after the podcast. Drue: Absolutely. Or two. Josh: Perfect, it's done. Or two. Drue: But yeah, just to finish up, we are passionate about being your key partner in business. Josh: That definitely sounds like you're on a really good business and its got legs and it's going places. I'd like to ask anyone out there, if you have enjoyed this episode, to make sure to jump across to iTunes, leave us a review, give us some love, and make sure to stay good. Drue: Thanks Josh.  

PHP Internals News: Episode 49: COPA London, UK Thursday, April 16th 2020, 09:12 BST In this episode of "PHP Internals News" I converse with Jakob Givoni (LinkedIn) about the "Compact Object Property Assignment", or COPA for short, RFC that he is proposing for inclusion in PHP 8. The RSS feed for this podcast is https://derickrethans.nl/feed-phpinternalsnews.xml, you can download this episode's MP3 file, and it's available on Spotify and iTunes. There is a dedicated website: https://phpinternals.news Transcript Derick Rethans 0:16 Hi, I'm Derick. And this is PHP internals news, a weekly podcast dedicated to demystifying the development of the PHP language. This is Episode 49. Today I'm talking with Jakob Givoni about an RFC that is made with a very long name, the compact object property assignment RFC or COPA for short. Jakob, would you please introduce yourself? Jakob Givoni 0:39 Yes, my name is Jakob. I'm from Denmark, and I've been working programming in PHP for 20 years now. I work as a software engineer for a company in Barcelona that's called Vendo. I got inspired to get involved in PHP internals after I saw you as well as Rasmus and Nikita in a PHP conference in Barcelona last November. Derick Rethans 1:00 there was a good conference, I always like going there. Hopefully, they will run it this year as well. What I'd like to talk to you about today is the COPA RFC that you've made. What is the problem that this is trying to solve? Jakob Givoni 1:14 Yes, I was puzzled for a long time why PHP didn't have object literals. And I looked into it. And I saw that it was not for lack of trying. Eventually, I decided to give it a go with a different approach. The basic problem is simply to be able to construct, populate, and send an object in one single expression in a block, also called inline. It can be like an alternative to an associative array. It gives the data a well defined structure, because the signature of the data is all documented in the class. Derick Rethans 1:47 Of course, people abuse associative arrays for these things at a moment, right? Why are you particularly interested in addressing this deficiency as you see it? Jakob Givoni 1:57 Well, I think it's a common task. It's something I've been missing, as I said inline objects, obviously literals for a long time, and I think it's a lot of people have been looking for something like this. And also, it seemed like it was an opportunity that seemed to be an fairly simple grasp. Derick Rethans 2:14 What kind of solutions do people use currently, instead? Jakob Givoni 2:18 I think, very popular one is the associative array where you define key value pairs as an array. The problem with that is that you don't get any help on the name of the indexes nor the types of the values. Derick Rethans 2:33 I mean, it's easy to make a typo in the name, right? And it just either exists in the array suddenly, if you set it or you just get a random null value back. As you said, yeah, there's no way of enforcing the type here, of course. COPA compact object property assignment is a mouthful, and it is a new bit of syntax to the PHP language. What is this new syntax going to look like? Jakob Givoni 2:55 While it looks just like when you assign a value to a property, but here you can add several comma separated lines of property name equals value inside a square bracket block, which is coming after the array and the array arrow operator. The syntax shouldn't really conflict with anything else we have at the moment. Derick Rethans 3:17 Because that's becoming more and more of a problem, right? Finding new bits of characters to use for new syntax. It is something that came up with annotations or attributes as well. Jakob Givoni 3:27 And then to start talking about, does this look like typical PHP? Or do you just like this syntax? Or do you hate it? It becomes a taste based thing. For me, the important thing is that if it works, and if it's fairly trivial to implement, I don't have a problem with it. Derick Rethans 3:43 There was a related RFC early in the year which was called the object initializer RFC. How is your proposal different from that one? Jakob Givoni 3:51 The object initializer is a new concept. Mine is different in in that I didn't want to introduce any new concepts. My approach was focused on pragmatism. In that other RFC, the initialization is done at the construction time. And you can kind of do it without even having to define your constructor. And one of the most important aspects of that one was to enforce that all the mandatory properties have been initialised. Because you can have type properties in PHP 7.4. If they don't have a value, then there is introduction of this new state of uninitialized properties. And the author of that RFC wanted to make sure that once the object was ready was fully constructed, it would validate that there was nothing missing there. So it has like six out of seven characteristics in common with mine, and one characteristic that is different. I looked into this about the mandatory promises and I didn't find a simple way or an obvious way to handle it. I have one idea if this COPA should pass and I have another idea if it fails. I didn't want to include that it was not part of my main goals. Derick Rethans 5:01 I'm looking at the syntax here for a bit. And it seems that way how you can do this COPA block. If you have an object, you use the arrow which is dash greater than sign square brackets, and then the list of properties that you want to assign values to. And the RFC shows that to be equivalent to doing each line manually yourself. Does that mean that it is only works for public properties? Jakob Givoni 5:31 No, it would work also, for what do you call it, virtual properties that don't actually exist, or if they're private, it would just invoke the magic set method in that case. The same thing would happen as if you were to do the assignment line by line as in the example. Derick Rethans 5:48 Without there being the underscore underscore set method set, it means that you can only really set the public properties in that case. Jakob Givoni 5:56 You won't be able to set private or protected properties directly unless the magic method does that. Derick Rethans 6:03 So does that mean that it is pretty much only something that happens in syntax, and it doesn't have any other side effects or any other functionality that you wouldn't already be able to do? Jakob Givoni 6:15 Yeah, it's just a new syntax for that. The emphasis here was pragmatism. So not introducing any new concepts. Derick Rethans 6:23 What would use cases for this be? Jakob Givoni 6:25 Typically, as I mentioned, they're data transfer objects, value objects. Those simple associative arrays that are sometimes used as argument backs to constructors, when you create objects. Some people have given some examples where they would like to use this to dispatch events or commands to some different handlers. And whenever you want to create and populate and and use the object in one go, the COPA should help you. Derick Rethans 6:58 I suppose COPA would also work for standard class objects? Jakob Givoni 7:02 It's an object just like anything else. So yeah, yes, there shouldn't be any surprises. Derick Rethans 7:07 But of course, it doesn't really make a lot of sense to use standard class because then again, of course, you don't have the benefits of checking your property names or types, again, of course. Are the other use cases you can think of? Jakob Givoni 7:19 Why don't have anything else in mind. Derick Rethans 7:22 I remember quite a long time ago, because this is a subject that comes up quite a bit. That's pretty much people that write PHP code abuse associative arrays so much. Just like the object initializers RFC, as well as your COPA RFC, try to use objects in a different way to be able to prevent developers from abusing associative arrays, pretty much as more stricter data types. In languages like C, there's a distinct datatype for this is called a struct. Do you think it would make sense that instead of trying to overload our object semantics, then in stats use, or introduce something like a struct concept of that C or other kind of statically typed languages have? Jakob Givoni 8:10 As I understand it, a struct is basically the same thing as structured as what I'm talking about structure set of data. However, I'm not sure if it's worth it to introduce a new concept. I don't know if it's necessary if it's possible to reuse the things that we already have enough familiar with. I think I would prefer that you call it overloading the object. But I don't see a lot of problems with having an object that is simply a list of properties with values. It's a very basic object. An object doesn't need to have any methods, it's possible to use that. Every time we add a new concept like struct would be, I feel that it would lead to a combinatorial explosion of implications that later you need to assess every time you want another future change. I haven't seen any RFCs that have specifically mentioned structs. But it is a very related concept. Derick Rethans 9:08 I'm just asking because I spent a lot of time in C where we have structs. But we don't really have objects or classes to begin with. It's more familiar for me to use that. And the other reason why I was asking is that perhaps it would be possible to create like a slightly more natural syntax, because, in my opinion, I think the one that you currently have chosen isn't particularly the most friendly one, but that's my own opinion here. Jakob Givoni 9:33 There might be a window of opportunity, because curly brackets after the variable is going to be deprecated as a way as an array access. So maybe that could be used just curly brackets and dropping the arrow itself. That would look a lot more like like an object, I think, and it would also be shorter. Right. I mean, PHP 7.4 deprecated these. So the question is just how soon can we remove it and replace it to mean something else completely? Derick Rethans 10:03 Yeah, that's a good question. I don't think I have the answer either. I guess it can be introduced as long as syntax that existed previously would now not do something different. And I think you would actually be okay here. Jakob Givoni 10:15 I'm pretty sure it would throw a syntax error. If you try to run this code in a previous version. Derick Rethans 10:21 I meant saying if you would reuse the curly braces, because as you said, they have been deprecated in PHP 7.4. Jakob Givoni 10:28 I mean, if someone were not to follow that deprecation notice, that is now in place and would continue to keep their the code. If we change the implementation, it's better to get a clear, fatal error than to just have something really spurious happening. Derick Rethans 10:45 Yes, absolutely, I definitely agree. Now, that's sort of what I was trying to get at, but you explained it more eloquently than I did. The RFC lists a few special cases. It talks about execution order and exceptions. I think some, somebody brought up somewhere that what happened If we're trying to set multiple properties through COPA and say the second out of three throws an exception. What would be the end state of the object for example? Could you talk a little bit through that? Jakob Givoni 11:11 Regarding exceptions being thrown in any of those expressions where you are assigning, it's important to understand that the block of code that is COPA is not an atomic operation. Anything that happened before the exception will still have happened. And everything anything that happens after won't happen. Exactly like what you would expect if you were doing it line by line. Or if you were using method chaining to do several things on an object. I think it's going to happen what you would expect to happen unless for some, I think it might be unintuitive, that it's not an atomic operation. But it's just important to keep that in mind. That's why I listed it under special cases. And there's something similar with the execution order, in that you can list the properties in any order you like. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to get the same result if you change the order because you will be able to use the value of a previous assignment in the next one. Again, not 100% intuitive, but I think it might be worth the trade off in implementation and flexibility. Derick Rethans 12:19 As you mentioned, there's no new semantics in there. Talking a little bit about implementation here. As there is no patch available, is this something that you'd be interested in developing yourself? Or are you looking for somebody else to help you out on that? Jakob Givoni 12:32 I actually haven't contributed any code before. I'm not familiar with C. But one reason that I chose this RFC and this approach is also that if I can't get any volunteers, I might be able to learn and to do it myself, since it seems like it's mostly a parser syntax thing, probably should be able to pick that up. Derick Rethans 12:53 I would also think because there is no new semantics in here, that it would instead be something in between, probably just the lexer that we have, the parser, and then constructing an equivalent abstract syntax tree or AST segment out of that. Jakob Givoni 13:12 I would be thrilled to collaborate with someone to do some pair programming in order to get started if anyone is up for it. Derick Rethans 13:18 So if you're listening to this episode, and you want to help Jakob out, why not get in touch with him? His contact details will be in the show notes for sure. The RFC also lists a few things that you have thought about, but you have decided not to either pick up into the RFC or you don't think they are in scope. Would we'll talk about that a little bit? Jakob Givoni 13:36 There's some special things that you can do at the moment when you assign a value to a property. Things like using a variable to specify the property name, or to generate the property name from an expression using the curly brackets after the arrow. There's also array access directly on the properties, or increment, decrement, or nested object accesses. I don't think that these things are really essential. I've decided to probably leave it out of scope for now unless it's trivial. If it if it's trivial to implement that as well. It's okay with me. It's not deal breaker. But you have to do a cost benefit analysis. And I'm thinking that it could be a future scope. If there's a demand this can be addressed in a later RFC. Derick Rethans 14:23 The RFC also talks about nested COPA. But it looks so complicated to me that I'm not sure whether it is actually something that we even should add to begin with. Jakob Givoni 14:34 I don't think it's as complicated as it looks. So you can already already do nested COPA in if you create a new object inline as well as you of course, you can assign it to a property in the outer scope of the COPA. But if you want to over, to set just one property of a nested object, then you cannot do that directly. Well, you can do it actually if you access the previous one. Because you have access to the current property when you do their assignments. So you can see in my example that you can do it. But there might be a better syntax for doing that. Derick Rethans 15:11 I'm happy to see that there's no backward incompatible changes. So that's always a win. What has been the feedback so far? Jakob Givoni 15:17 Yeah, the feedback has been mixed bag as to say. There's some recognition that this has potential to be a useful feature. This is a critique of the syntax, as you also mentioned, and then about the missing functionality, like the mandatory properties and atomic operations. And then of course, named parameters always comes up. The PHP internals list. It's a tough crowd. I really enjoyed engaged in this project. So I don't mind it's part of it. I also really like this side discussion that we're having currently about ways to improve the way that we collaborate and make progress, especially on tough issues. Derick Rethans 15:58 That has definitely improved over the last five years to a decade, but it can always be improved more, I would say. What is your end goal with this RFC? I guess you would like to see this added to PHP at some point, are you targeting it for PHP eight? Jakob Givoni 16:13 I would be extremely proud to see this added to PHP at some point. And if it can make it into PHP eight in the first release, that would be awesome. That's at least what I'm going for, for now. Derick Rethans 16:25 The PHP project is looking for release managers for PHP eight zero, with feature freeze happening at the end of June somewhere. So there's lesser and lesser time available for doing these things. So I'm curious to see where this ends up. Jakob Givoni 16:39 It's a race against time at the moment. Derick Rethans 16:42 But that's always the case, isn't it? I think be interesting to see if, if somebody wants to help out to make the implementation of this, or rather, I'd be interested to see whether you'd be able to pick up that yourself actually. We can always do with more people that work on a PHP language. Do you have anything else to add yourself? Jakob Givoni 17:00 I'd say that I spent a lot of effort researching and writing this. And I just hope that people will study the RFC properly and keep an open mind. I know it's probably going to be a hard sell. And that's okay. I just wanted to give it a go. And this is just just the beginning of my contributions, I hope. Derick Rethans 17:19 I spoke with Mate a little bit a few episodes ago. He was getting worried about it not getting accepted at some point. And I pointed out to him that scalar type hints took about a decade and seven attempts to finally make it into PHP. So it helps to just persist I would say in times. Jakob Givoni 17:37 Times change and also you get new ideas and you evolve. Derick Rethans 17:42 The language continues to improve and that's how I like it. Thanks, Jakob for taking the time to talk to me today. It was interesting to see what you're up to. Jakob Givoni 17:51 My pleasure. Thank you so much Derick for having me. Derick Rethans 17:56 Thanks for listening to this instalment of PHP internals news, the weekly podcast dedicated to demystifying the development of the PHP language. I maintain a Patreon account for supporters of this podcast, as well as the Xdebug debugging tool. You can sign up for Patreon at https://drck.me/patreon. If you have comments or suggestions, feel free to email them to derick@phpinternals.news. Thank you for listening, and I'll see you next week. Show Notes RFC: Compact Object Property Assignment RFC: Object Initialiser Episode 30: Object Initialiser Credits Music: Chipper Doodle v2 — Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) — Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0

The EU is debating whether funding to protect economies from the ravages of the Corona virus should come from centrally issued Corona Bonds, or from country-specific debt. In short, should Italy and Spain pay the price of their own misfortune and be landed with the bill to pay off for years to come, whilst totally sovereign nations, like the US, simply issue bonds which can be paid for by the central bank and for which the government has no intention of ever repaying. In this edition of Debunking Economics Phil Dobbie asks Prof Steve Keen whether the inflexibility of the Euro at a time like this will mean countries like Italy will no longer want to be part of it. Could this crisis expedite the demise of the Euro, and, perhaps, the EU itself? If so, is that a good thing? This podcast is FREE, but you'll get access to many more, in full, if you become a paying subscriber - either here, or by becoming a supporter of SDteve Keen on Patreon patreon.com/profstevekeen TRANSCRIPT PHIL DOBBIE [00:00:01] If you were Italy right now, or Spain, suffering thousands of deaths from the Corona virus and the EU, that body was there is there to unify Europe, was quibbling about how we should fund that support, wouldn't you be wondering whether EU membership was worth it? In fact, when this is over, and you are possibly riddled with more debt as a consequence from all of this, wouldn't you be thinking what is the point of staying in the EU? And could Italy and Spain and others quickly follow the UK on the back of the way the EU has dealt with the Corona virus? That's today on the Debunking Economics podcast. PHIL DOBBIE [00:00:38] I'm Phil Dobbie and Steve Keen is with me again, of course. The EU is meeting this week to discuss Corona Bonds, which is something Steve talked about weeks ago on this podcast - funding what could be generated through bonds which are bought by the European Central Bank and issued in large volumes to help countries suffering the most, that need the resources basically, to manage their way through this crisis. But some in the ECB, like Germany and the Netherlands, still see the funding coming through loans, just so those southern European countries don't get used to the idea of lots of free money. So they come out of this crisis with more austerity as they try and pay back those loans, just to add to the general sense of misery. Oh, Steve. The joys of the EU. Well, it is a joy for those who who live in the north of the EU anyway, because they don't have to go through all this austerity. STEVE KEEN [00:01:33] Yeah, it's incredible how the ideology can be sustained when reality is slapping it in the face and kicking in the balls. But that's what's going on. Particularly this is this is just particularly Germanic dedication to what's known as ordoliberalism, which is a combination of the sort of extreme libertarian attitude you'll find with a lot of American libertarian Austrian types combined with this Germanic idea that uou've got to enforce it, so that's where the ordo comes from. And they're saying we've got to get right back to austerity as soon as we finish this without thinking, well, if we didn't have austerity maybe we'd have enough beds right now in the hospitals and enough intensive care units to be able to cope, which we don't. PHIL DOBBIE [00:02:16] But Germany is covered, of course. I mean, they've got a it's very sad, but they've got almost 2000 deaths in Germany. But compare that to Italy, where it's over 17000, almost 18000 deaths. So, yeah, I mean, they're in a much better position. STEVE KEEN [00:02:31] Yeah, they've got the capacity to some extent. But having a decent public health system helps. They haven't destroyed that, whereas the Americans didn't have one to begin with. PHIL DOBBIE [00:02:41] And they've got they've got a government surplus (in Germany). So if they need to spend more money, they can dip into it. STEVE KEEN [00:02:47] That has no relevance whatsoever. But yes, I'll let you get away with that one. PHIL DOBBIE [00:02:50] But from from their point of view they're saying, yeah, we've got the government money. We can spend it. STEVE KEEN [00:02:57] Yeah, that's true. That's the reasoning they'll use unfortunately. PHIL DOBBIE [00:02:59] And Italy doesn't have that surplus. So people in the south aren't gonna buy this. When this is all done and dusted once this is all over, people in Greece and in Italy and in Spain and Portugal, they're all going to say, hang on a second, the EU didn't work for us in this occasion. There was no funding coming. We didn't get to make any extra funding. You didn't help out. What? What are we getting for our membership,. STEVE KEEN [00:03:24] Particularly Italy? Yeah. And in Spain, too. I mean, that's the situation with them is absolutely appalling .When the Italians can rely upon the Cubans and the Chinese more than they can upon their own neighbours, the whole idea of European solidarity ain't looking so crash hot. It's not solidarity. They've been locked into a death cult. PHIL DOBBIE [00:03:48] And the euro is the big problem here, isn't it? Because we've got one central bank. The one central bank issues the bonds. They determine if they are going to embark on quantitative easing. If they if they changed the regulations of the EU, which they have loosened, there's nothing to stop the Europeans agreeing that the the central bank will issue a mass of new debt, new bonds, and that will go to funding the crisis in Italy. There's nothing at all to stop that happening. As you say it's just ideology. STEVE KEEN [00:04:23] Yeah. And it's also that it's been set up in such a way that it can't make a decision, unles its a decision to increase austerity. Remember I voted for Britain leaving the EU. At the time I made the arguments in favour of it, not on the point of view of what would benefit Britain, but ultimately, it was an organisation that shouldn't they shouldn't exist given its policies. Somebody said, look, you can't say it's not Democratic. Look at this democratic structure here. The Democrat structure I saw was, first of all, the European Commission, a bunch of economic dominated bureaucrats, tthey draught the laws, not the parliament. The parliament cannot draught laws. The law is sent to the parliament for ratification or objection. And if the parliament votes against the law, it can also be voted for by the 19 finance ministers who meet independently and no records are kept at their meetings. That's why Yanis Varoufakis recent move to release all the recordings he made I think is a brilliant move because it shows us how stupidly and badly they behave. So the whole thing is set up in such a way that, whatever the commission wants to happen will happen. What everybody else wants to happen, you can get it can get ... well, I was only the words starting with F,. PHIL DOBBIE [00:05:38] Stuffed. Let's go to with stuffed. STEVE KEEN [00:05:41] Consequently, there is there is no capacity to make a decision unless it's a decision which supports the direction of the Maastricht Treaty and makes it even more difficult to spend or create government money in even more difficult to rescue people than in the dire circumstances of the Corona virus. So this could be the death knell. What I'd like to see happen is Italy to say, we've had enough, every bank account in Italy is now a Lira account, the new lira is worth one euro, we repudiate its national debts, including the German and French banks, you guys can get stuffed and we're starting our own monetary system again. PHIL DOBBIE [00:06:18] Do you think that will happen? I mean, Greece came so close to it, didn't they? I mean, Yanis was was on the verge of pushing that button, if he could have got support within his within his own government. Do you think Italy will, and if Italy does then obviously, Greece and Spain are not going to be far behind. STEVE KEEN [00:06:34] It's possible. I mean, Italy's got an apalling trajectory in terms of the number of deaths right now.And with the leader of being a populist right wing populist as well, it's a possibility. We actually discussed in a previous podcast, what would shift after this? Would people say we overreacted, but think Italy is one country where peole are going to say, right, this went really  badly and we've got to do something about it, and we're not taking Belgium bullshit anymore.  If weare going to do something Belgium doesn't like anymore, because Belgiumbeing the centre of the EU, then we're going to do it. And so I think there's a possibility that the fracture could come through Italy over the Corona crisis. PHIL DOBBIE [00:07:19] It's interesting when you look back at the foundation of the EU. It really came out of a crisis, that  crisis being that the Second World War. Then we had, the Marshall Plan, and it was America pumping large amounts of money into Germany to industrialize Germany and the concerns from the French that Germany was going to become too dominant, which is why that, early on, France wanted to share a currency to try and avoid the the imbalance. Of course, Germany had all that debt to the US, written off. How quickly they forget. STEVE KEEN [00:07:49] And they also do not let's not forget German debt to Greece, for God's sake, which the Greeks wrote off. So it is remarkable how fast we fail to learn from history. And this will be on the level of the Second World War, by the way. The impact is so great, so rapid, whether it can be avoided or not, whether we could have reacted in a different fashion or not, that doesn't change it. It will be the biggest economic crisis since since the Great Depression and the fastest shut down of productive resources since the Second World. PHIL DOBBIE [00:08:23] So, at the same time, we had all this fear, didn't we, during the Brexit campaign that the EU was going to allow Turkey into the EU? We did allow Hungary into the EU. Janos Ader say now is basically a dictator. He's got full powers. He's enacted no sunset clause on on when that power might end. He's still a member of the EU. So basically dictators are allowed in the EU now. STEVE KEEN [00:08:51] Yeah, well, they always were. The whole idea that its a democratic institution as a joke and the joke is being exposed right now because, what would people want on the ground, they want, for example, they want masks. Now you can't have them. They want ICU units. No you can't have them all. This is democratic, isn't it? PHIL DOBBIE [00:09:09] So it goes one way or the other, doesn't it? It either falls apart or it becomes, which is perhaps more dangerous, it pulls together more. And we've spoken about this before. If the EU acts as one nation, then one nation would not allow the southern part of the country to have such a massive death threat. That would be people like people in London laughing in cocktail bars while people in the north of England died of starvation. You can't allow that to happen. So Europe isn't behaving like one country. It wants to be more integrated, but it's still going to be a series of sovereign nations. And each of those nations is still going to be in it for what they can what they can get out of it. STEVE KEEN [00:09:49] Yeah, that's the trouble. I mean, there's is a certain sense of European commonality, not quite that dire, but nonetheless, the Europeans identify Swiss and Germans and Dutch, et cetera, et cetera, first, then European second. Americans identify as Americans first and Alabamans and Californians and so on, second. So this is thing even Milton Friedman realised was when he wrote in opposition to the formation of the euro in the very first instance, that you don't have the degree of commonality you need. Also, in a very important point, which even again, even Milton Friedman realised this, you don't have a common treasury. Without a common treasury the expenses get passed from one effectively state treasury to another, which are spending constrained. And they resent, therefore, people moving from one state to another because you impose the burden of the wealth in that person on their recipients state. So all these things just argue against the EU and the Euro from the very first outset. And the whole thing about it, is was supposed to strengthen Europe. Well, great. What's fabulous strengthening this has been. This has. First of all, it amplified the impact of the crisis back in 2008. Now its having a debilitating impact upon its capacity to respond to the Corona virus. They'd be better off by separating. And this is the great tragedy of the European Union. PHIL DOBBIE [00:11:05] Well, so will it then? If if Italy says that's it, as you say, we're going we're not going to pay off our debts, so you can get stuffed. So they pull out of the euro, even if they don't pull out of the EU,  and they went back to to the to their own currency, the lira, the that would pretty quickly devalue. They would have a competitive edge against Germany. They could build a manufacturing base to challenge Germany over time and a far healthier future for Italy. So why wouldn't they do it and why wouldn't everyone else follow them? STEVE KEEN [00:11:49]  I can still see people sticking on saying that we've got to maintain the euro. I wish people would learn from these sort of experiences. But again, as I've said in the last podcast, experience has made me rather pessimistic about the capacity of people to learn from experience. However, if the Italians did pull out and did go back to the Lira and could devalue against the euro, then they would lose one of the two main problems have had fromthe euro to begin with, which is, with a lower inflation rate than Germany, necessarily their goods got more expensive over time because they were not able to devalue. Once they can devalue, the difference in inflation rates doesn't matter. And therefore, the competitiveness that Lamborghini and Ferrari and Fiat have lost against Mercedes Benz and BMW would disappear and they could restrengthen their manufacturing sector. So it would be an amazing lesson in how how bad an idea was to form the euro in the first place, to get out of the damn thing and see the economy do quite well. And by the way, if they did actually write off all their debts, it's quite possible they could revalue against the euro and still do well, because they wouldn't be carrying any debts, whereas the rest of the European Union would. PHIL DOBBIE [00:13:01] And they could do that. Can they? STEVE KEEN [00:13:03] Yeh. Plenty of countries have written off their foreign debts in the past and as soon as they do it, people say your currency is going to plunge in value, because the market won't trust you. 30 seconds later, the bond traders absorb the whole experience and they're now buying your currency because you're no longer debt encumbered. PHIL DOBBIE [00:13:21] So what does it do to the banking sector in the in that process, though? STEVE KEEN [00:13:25] Well, again, you've got you've got to be ready at the central bank. There is actually an Italian central bank. Every European country has its own central bank. It just doesn't have a power to issue a currency. Suddenly you've got the power and you can therefore provide as much in the way of assets to the banking sector, so that its liabilities don'texceed the assets and therefore they don't go bankrupt, you can do that instantly. Then they would they would enable the banking sector to continue operating. PHIL DOBBIE [00:13:52] So say Italy and others then say, well, we're going to follow the same path - if that threat is made to the EU, is the EU going to look for a halfway house? Maybe the idea that everyone can have their own independent currencies, their own independent bank, and we just have a common trading currency, like we used to with the ECU. That is stripping back the EU so it becomes more like the common market. You get to that stage, then Britain might say, well, you know what, we don't want to be in the EU, but we might be part of this. STEVE KEEN [00:14:31] The common market was a relatively sensible idea. It gave you a chance to have economies of scale across the whole continent, which was the objective of the European Union in the first instance. The mistake was forming the Euro as well. So, yes, you could be quite effective. And my argument always been, use the euro for international trade, to trade between countries of the European Union, use your own currency domestically. And that the real appeal to the public of the euro, and I've experienced this with the amount of travelling I've done in the European Union, is you follow exactly the same currency - you face no currency loss when you go from Germany to France, Italy to Spain and so on. And that's personally a very attractive advantage of the euro. My argument has been ,let the European Central Bank take over the currency conversion responsibilities. So you give all the private institutions impossible competition. The government bureaucracy converts the currency at exactly the exchange rate. If you have a thousand lira and that's worth two thousand Francs, you walk in with a thousand lire, you walk out with two thousand francs, you suffer zero currency loss going from one country to another. That'd be a central role for also the European Central Bank. And then with that there's no need to have the same currency across the whole of the continent. As a community, you ensure that no individual loses out of the ridiculous mark-ups that these companies make for exchanging currency. PHIL DOBBIE [00:15:59] But you know what? I wonder whether, in fact, that that becomes less of an issue going forward as we have more technology and more competition for that side of the banking sector for foreign exchange, which we're seeing quite a lot of. So you have a you have a card. You don't you don't really care. You go from you go from Germany into Italy. You switch currencies. You've got a vague awareness of what the exchange rate may be. And you've signed up to a bank or a card which is going to give you the best possible exchange rate. Does it really matter? STEVE KEEN [00:16:31] Well, I'm a heavy user of transferwise, for example. An unsponsored advertisement. it's a fabulous service transferwise and it saved me a large amount of money. PHIL DOBBIE [00:16:42] Other ones are available. WorldFirst and OFX. STEVE KEEN [00:16:45]  It's brilliant. They totally undercut the incredible mark-ups and the made in all those foreign to currency changes. I don't really worry about the cost going from one currency to the right anymore. I use the same card everywhere. PHIL DOBBIE [00:16:57]  So the idea of the euro being one unified currency to make it easy as you move around and as you trade. I'm just wondering whether that selling proposition is rapidly disappearing, so one of the key reasons for the euro, perhaps as is not such a key reason anymore. STEVE KEEN [00:17:13] Which it was a key reason back in 2000, maybe, or 1999, obviously.  But you're right, now that that's there's the technology and the fact that is an enormous financial incentive there for people to move into that particular space, that's a classic case of capitalism innovating to take advantage of a large discontinuity in the economy. PHIL DOBBIE [00:17:31] So if was to happen, if the euro did disappear, could the EU survive without it? And what form would that take, do you think? STEVE KEEN [00:17:37] Well, to go back to being a common market, that's all we need it to be. A common market, and you'd have a forum resolve disputes between states. And it should be one where where the states have representatives, the Italian, the French, the German, etc, governments coming together just to have conversations, not having idea of a bloody parliament, which itself is a farce. The parliament, as I said before, only decide to do what the European Commission tells it to do. Nothing like a democracy. The whole idea of the European Union, from the ordinary Europeans point of view is to end the old internecine warfare of the European continent. But from the point of view of the bureaucrats, who is it getting people out of the way and let the bureaucrats run everything. Because obviously with democracy that gave us fascism. PHIL DOBBIE [00:18:23] But it also gave us Donald Trump. STEVE KEEN [00:18:27] So, you know, I'm not saying democracy is perfect by any stretch. And I want to get rid of it and replace it with a set of skilled individuals who don't want to do the job, who are system dynamic specialists and united by intelligent software. That's what we really need to run the complex system of the world we're in these days rather than the popularity contest of standard democracy. PHIL DOBBIE [00:18:46] Right. Okay.  Are you going to be the head of that government as well? I mean, you. STEVE KEEN [00:18:51] So please, please, please. PHIL DOBBIE [00:18:57] Herr Keen. My arms in the air, as I talk to you,. STEVE KEEN [00:18:59] I'm tickling your underarms. PHIL DOBBIE [00:19:02] I'm loving it. STEVE KEEN [00:19:09] Let's let's let's listen to a podcast on that particular issue - democracy versus versus systemic governance. That's that's an important point later on. PHIL DOBBIE [00:19:18] Gee. All right. So back to the EU, though. I mean, what we're describing then, really is that it's a common market. There has to be agreement on standards. Do you do governments then say, well, we're gonna have this common common market, we need to make sure you're not subsidizing your products and dumping products on our market because you've given so much state subsidy. I guess you still need regulations like that, don't you?  So that you've got a level playing field. STEVE KEEN [00:19:50] You know, some sort of commonality. It's common market, it has to have common regulations. So that's okay. It's the imposition of the budgetary noose of the Maastricht Treaty and the inability of any decision to be reached that isn't something the European Commission wants. It's having bureaucrats,  who are mainly trained economists and that's the bloody problem. Trained engineers would be a damn sight better. PHIL DOBBIE [00:20:18] Right. But a lot of it is just finding commonality of a level playing field for competition isn't it? so setting setting standards. I mean you're not going to do that by parliament. Someone's got to establish what their standards are going to be. STEVE KEEN [00:20:30] Equally, at the same point, there's also one thing I hope we learn out of this crisis, is that the whole year of a globalised integrated economy is a mistake at a biological level. You need to have regionalized economies. I've been arguing for a long time that we need a biological approach to economics in general, and that would never have had us having globalised production systems, because globalised production systems are great for pathogens. They are not fabulous with humans. So I hope we learned that lesson that we don't go back to the obsession about bigger and bigger trading blocks, and more and more free trade, and more and more transportation around the planet, etc, etc. More and more consumption of oil. PHIL DOBBIE [00:21:08] But that is a good reason for making sure that the trade within the EU continues then isn't it? So that the UK is not shipping a whole load of stuff across the ocean from the US or from South America or from China. We are better off eating fruit, for example, that comes from the south of Europe STEVE KEEN [00:21:29] Exactly. You try to divine a regional trading bloc. I'm not my actual principle here is what's called the von Neumann machine. Had ever heard of that one? PHIL DOBBIE [00:21:36] I think I had one but I couldn't work the instructions. STEVE KEEN [00:21:39] No, you didn't. A von Neumann machine is a machine, that can make other machines and also make itself. One of the most brilliant men of all time, von Neumann, came up with the concept of this. He said humanity needs to create a machine which is capable of making all of the other machines needed, as well as reproducing itself. And then you'd send that inter outer space and you could colonize the entire galaxy. But the idea, we should think in terms of creating regions of the planet, which are von Neumann machines, meaning they create everything they need as well being able to reproduce themselves over time. So you say, what scale do we need for this region to be self-contained and have multiple self-contained regions lik,e that which don't need to trade with others. You don't go for this obsession with a globalised approach because that works in favour of the pathogens, that works in favour of humans overloading the planet, completely ignoring the other species, and then we get the biological venereal disease coming back at us. PHIL DOBBIE [00:22:43] But I mean, all the more reason for the EU to, in some form, even if it is just a common market working to common standards, but everybody has their own central bank, they determine the way they operate, how much they borrow, how much that their debt to GDP ratio is they are that totally independent sovereign nations, but they have a common agreement on what they're going to sell and the standards between them. That's gotta be the utopia, hasn't it? Because it does create that trading bloc that the EU could then say, well, we really don't need anyone else. STEVE KEEN [00:23:19] To reach that Utopia we've had to go through a dyspotian experience was necessary. But, yes, treating it as a regional production system, intending to achieve overall self-sufficiency across all the products that are necessary to sustain a decent high human society and a decent environment, not just for ourselves, but for the other species on the planet. That's the way we should be thinking in the future. PHIL DOBBIE [00:23:46] Is that going to happen, though? Will the EU survive the way it is? Could, for example, if Italy say we want out of the euro, but we'll stay in the EU,  to which that the payoff would be you can't write off all your debt, you don't have to pay it up back after off over over 20 years. You're gonna have to live in austerity and and perhaps more people will die from malnutrition than died from from the virus as you attempt to pay all this back. That seems more likely than Italy pulling out totally and the EU collapsing, doesn't it, sadly? STEVE KEEN [00:24:21] Yeah. I mean, the thing is, though, lets remember there have been other Pan European and pan global organisations which have disappeared. For example, what's the most recent announcement of the League of Nations? PHIL DOBBIE [00:24:33] Yeah, they have been very quiet lately, haven't they? STEVE KEEN [00:24:36] Died about 80 years ago. It was killed by the First World War. So these organisations have failed in the past. And I can think of no better organisation to fail than the European Union. PHIL DOBBIE [00:24:49]  But we don't. But we don't want it to disappear and then just have a series of independent nations do we? STEVE KEEN [00:24:58]  Yanis Varoufakis has finally come around to saying he reckoned the British did the right thing for the wrong reasons when leaving the European Union. It's very hard to expect somebody to who's you whose entire life has been around trying to globalise everything and trying to minimise trade barriers, and letting competition rip and ignoring sustainability while pushing efficiency, it's very hard to have a person suddenly flip over to a biological way of thinking. You have simply got the wrong people in there and getting rid of them is impossible in a bureaucracy. So. It may be that it has to fail to be replaced by something more sensible. PHIL DOBBIE [00:25:41] I wonder what would replace it. Could we in fact get a group of countries like perhaps France, maybe we'll include Germany, the UK and Ireland and Spain and Greece saying, well, okay, let's if that's all fallen apart, but we need to trade with each other because we've got so much trade across all on across our borders, so let's at least agree some standards and let's form the new EU. STEVE KEEN [00:26:03] That's definitely what happens, I think. And the emphasis has to be on the ecological and social sustainability of the society, not this obsession with competition and efficiency. So it could happen, but I certainly can't see the bureaucrats in Brussels being the ones who lead the charge. PHIL DOBBIE [00:26:20] And how quickly is it going to fall apart? Then, do you reckon? Is that going to be after this, after over this virus, the second half of this year, is this gonna be the big story? STEVE KEEN [00:26:28] No, again, because of my cynicism about people's capacity to learn from experience. I think we'll go through this, there will be in aftermath. We will continue on and then something else will hit us. I mean, 2020 has been a one and a dog of the year. We had the fires in Australia and the floods in Australia, then the locust plagues in Africa, which we've stopped talking about but is probably still happening, now the Corona virus. We're only one third of the way into the year. What the hell's going to come along next? PHIL DOBBIE [00:27:00] Well, we've got a lot more of this to go havcen't we? I think this is going to keep us going for the rest of the year. But the idea that this will be almost swept under the carpet, and its oging to take something else to disturb the EU, I wonder if that's the case, because, look, it's over 17000 deaths now in Italy, less than 2000 in Germany and 14000 in Spain. There's such a huge difference, a huge disparity, between nations. And surely people are going to be looking at that and saying, how did we allow this to happen? I mean, we're talking about the price on human life. Surely there's going to be some recompense from all of this. STEVE KEEN [00:27:36] Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, just looking at the doubling rate, by the way, for Germany is not looking as healthy as a doubling rate for Spain right now, strangely enough. So maybe, maybe there'll be a price to pay in the future. PHIL DOBBIE [00:27:52] And that's the bad news, because if Germany gets hit as much as everybody else, then that argument that there's a disparity on this disappears. To which the conclusion will be in Germany and from the powers behind the EU, that that was a crisis that we all faced, we all paid the price for it, now, let's carry on as normal. STEVE KEEN [00:28:14] This was a crisis nobody expected except anybody who'd read Laurie Garrett's 'The Coming Plague.'  And these are people who've been completely sidelined with the redesign of society. These are epidemiologists, the specialists in humans as a biological species, not humans as the dominant economic force on the planet. They're the ones who saw this coming. They've been sidelined. The one thing I hope to happen is, is that we pay much less attention to bloodyeconomists and a damn sight more to epidemiologists, engineers, physicists and atmospheric scientists. They're the people we need to listen to, not bloody economists. The EU was built by economists. That's one of the best reasons to get rid of it. PHIL DOBBIE [00:28:55] We should leave it there. But one final question is, I mean, a lot of it does relate to the acceptance of debt, doesn't it? That's the core of all of this. So German debt to GDP is 60 or 70 percent government debt versus 200 percent in Japan.  The US is shooting up there as well. Greece, I think, is less than 200 percent. Italy is relatively low. If you ijust said, well, okay, let's accept 200 percent as acceptable. Then you would have allowed a massive increase in spending. STEVE KEEN [00:29:28] Yeah. Government deb is not the problem. We've had many talks on this issue in terms of the financial issues as well, but the whole obsession with government debt has always been wrong. It's always come out of neoclassical economics and applying a household analogy to an overall economy. It's the private debt that matters. That's what's caused all the dilemmas. That's what has led to the boom beforehand and the bust as well. Hopefully, some of that understanding will get through during this crisis as well. PHIL DOBBIE [00:30:00] Right. So if the EU survive, but they accepted that point, could it could it survive and do good rather than be evil. If it if it accepted the fact that we should allow countries to run much heavier debt. STEVE KEEN [00:30:14] Potentially, but again, that means countries would have divergent inflation rates. The euro should not survive. That's the one thing, the euro should not survive. The European Union potentially could survive,  if it if it learns from this crisis and fundamentally changes its direction. But that's like expecting a Ptolemaic astronomer to suddenly understand Copernicus and stop drawing epicycles and start thinking about ellipsis centred on the sun. People's minds a rereshaped by the belief systems they have, and that reshaping means they are simply incapable, their neurones are wired their own way. It is it is not possible for someone to change the neurological wiring as fast as it is for a new person to come along with a fairly open neural network and relearn these issues. So in many ways we just got to retire the people who currently run the European Union. If we could keep the buildings and send the people off to retirement homes, we might get somewhere. PHIL DOBBIE [00:31:14] Generational change is what you're talking about, isn't it? And they're all looking pretty old. Time to shuffle on and do your next thing. Good to talk Steve.  PHIL DOBBIE [00:31:25] And talking about neoclassical economics, we are going to look at Adam Smith next time. Is there anything good that came out of Adam Smith's work? Anything that we can take and say, well, that was all right. We'll look at that next time on the Debunking Economics podcast with Professor Steve Keen. I'm Phil Dobbie. See you then.

This month, Mario Moreno, WOLA's VP for Communications. interviewed Joanna Williams, the Director of Education and Advocacy at the Kino Border Initiative. The Kino Border Initiative (KBI) is a binational organization in Nogales, Arizona and Nogales, Sonora, Mexico. KBI works in the area of migration, providing direct humanitarian assistance and accompaniment with migrants. They discuss what is happening at the border, how shelters and service providers are adapting, and the repercussions of the virus and government actions on migrants and asylum seekers. Beyond the Wall is a bilingual segment of the Latin America Today podcast, and a part of the Washington Office on Latin America's Beyond the Wall advocacy campaign. In the series, we will follow the thread of migration in the Americas beyond traditional barriers like language and borders. We will explore root causes of migration, the state of migrant rights in multiple countries and multiple borders and what we can do to protect human rights in one of the most pressing crises in our hemisphere. Sign up for updates here: https://www.wola.org/beyondthewall/signup-beyond-wall/ Music by Blue Dot Sessions and ericb399. Transcripts are generated using a speech recognition software and may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.   TRANSCRIPT: Intro clips (00:01): The countries of the Northern triangle -- Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala -- are facing a set of conditions that are forcing many families and children to migrate from their community. They're saying "we're here in the shelter, I'm afraid to put my kids into school" Crimes, corruption, poverty and inequality. And they don't have a lot of hope because we know that most people get turned away. These issues are forcing many to seek protection and opportunities elsewhere. What do we project as a country with how we're treating these people, many of which are seeking protection? Barbed wire on the top of the fence...It looks like world war one out there. President Donald Trump (00:32): Someone at border crossing comes in, you say sorry, we're taking you back. That's if we're nice and I want to do that. WOLA Expert Quote (00:37): Say you've been kidnapped in a Mexican border town, you may feel so unsafe there that you're willing to run the risk of all the insecurities that led you to flee your home in the first place. But is that really a choice? Mario Moreno (00:49): Hi, my name is Mario Moreno. I'm the vice president for communications at the Washington Office on Latin America. On March 20th in response to rising concerns of the Covid-19 pandemic, the United States and Mexico agreed to temporarily shut down their shared border to all nonessential travel, a category that was determined to include all asylum seekers. This move fundamentally ends the right to asylum on the U.S.-Mexico border, but more importantly, it raises clear concerns for migrants who have already been waiting months in dangerous Mexican border towns to present their asylum claims or to attend their asylum hearings. This raises several key questions worth exploring. How will the closing of the border exacerbate the dangerous these migrants face and could this action put them at severe risk? Should covid-19 spread on the border to seek answers to these questions and explore these issues? I talked with Joanna Williams, the director of education and advocacy at the Kino border initiative, an organization that provides direct humanitarian assistance in accompaniment with migrants on the U.S.-Mexico border. Joanna Williams (01:59): So the Kino Border Initiative. We're a binational organization that is located in Nogales, Arizona, in Nogales, Mexico. And we work in three different areas. So the first area is humanitarian aid, the second is education. And the third is research and advocacy. The humanitarian aid that we do is all on the Mexican side of the border. So we're providing basic services like food, medical attention clothing to individuals who are in Nogales, Mexico; migrants specifically. And that means in part migrants who are being deported from the United States and increasingly has meant migrants who are seeking asylum in the U.S. And who are stranded in Nogales, Mexico. So that's, it's out of that day in and day out work that then we engage in education and advocacy. And we have the Kino Border Initiative have really seen shifting realities over the course of the last couple of years. And specifically I think in, in light of our current situation, what we've seen for the last year and a half, almost two years now are really systematic efforts to dismantle access to asylum at the border that has left people in more and more precarious situations. Joanna Williams (03:11): In Nogales, Mexico. So it's almost two years ago when metering started. Which metering means that people are, instead of being processed, when they arrive at the port of entry, they're told that they have to wait, that there's not capacity at the port of entry and they have to wait in Mexico for indefinite periods of time or for, for how long typically. So the, the instruction from the U.S. Side is essentially for an indefinite period of time. Then since metering began people, the on the Mexican side, there were certain systems are arranged of how to even have a list to organize people who are in line. When metering started, people were literally sleeping out at the port of entry, waiting for their turn. That became very unsustainable as people were waiting for many days or even weeks. Now even before last week's announcement people had been, who are metered in Nogales. We're waiting for over four months in most of the families who have been metered in Nogales, our Mexican families. So they're fleeing violence in Mexico and they're not able to escape from their own country to seek protection in the U.S. So this has been a worsening situation over the course of the last two years. And it's one example of how asylum has been dismantled. The other big policy that's affected us in Nogales is what's known as the Remain in Mexico policy or also known as MPP in which asylum seekers have to or return to Mexico and are then made to wait for their court dates in the United States. So they have to be in Mexico for many months over a year in order to wait for a, an asylum decision on the U S side of the border. And they don't have access to housing, to work, to medical care and certainly to good legal support in that time of limbo. Joanna Williams (05:04): So this is all the, the background to the current moment. And I think important to understand because of that systematic effort to dismantle asylum, now we see the administration taking advantage of this current pandemic to further that agenda of eliminating access to protection for people fleeing violence. And it has three different impacts on, on these different populations. So one, when we talk about the suspension of processing at the port of entry just to give an example, we have a family that fled from the state of Mexico several months ago. So they've already been waiting about three and a half months in Nogales there. The dad was actually shot and almost died. He was shot by organized crime. The family, even after that, tried to file a police report. They tried to stay. They said they were, they wanted to be able to stay in the place that they were at because they didn't want to displace their kids. Joanna Williams (06:04): But after filing the police report, then they got even more threats from organized crime for having dared to speak out. And eventually saw it is impossible and had to flee up to Nogales. They know that the organized crime group is still looking for them. They, their house was the, the criminals open entered their house and searched the, their belongings, not, they didn't steal anything. They just searched through all of the notebooks and any kind of information within the house. So they know that the group is looking for them and that they're still in danger. And in Nogales, they've been here for three months and now they're looking at being here indefinitely because they're no longer allowed to present at the port of entry to seek asylum. So that's one sample of the effect on this, of this suspension of port of entry processing. Joanna Williams (06:55): And the second area, which is the, the Remain in Mexico policy. As I mentioned, people have been returned to Mexico to wait for court dates in the U.S. In Nogales. The people who are returned here, their court dates are all the way in El Paso, which for those of you who aren't familiar with geography on this, in this part of the border, that means they have a essentially a 10 hour bus ride from Nogales, Mexico, all the way to what is in order to then present for their court dates. Because of Covid-19 MPP courts have been suspended. So all of the court dates for the next month have been canceled. But the U S government is still saying that people have to go all the way to the El Paso port of entry in order to get just a piece of paper with their notification of their new court date. Joanna Williams (07:40): And what the U S government is saying is if people don't do that, then they won't be allowed to present on their new court date. And this means, for example, we have two women who are with their children. They fled from Guatemala and they speak primarily mom. So it's very difficult for them to navigate in Mexico. A mom is an indigenous Guatemalan, language is very difficult for them to, to navigate in Mexico. One of the women has a court date on March 31st and she's at a loss of what to do because if she goes to what is and presents for her court date she then won't have anywhere to stay in. Is there any way to find where to stay? Most of the migrant shelters in the Northern borders aren't accepting new arrivals in light of this pandemic, trying to keep the folks that are currently sheltered, healthy. But that means she doesn't have any shelter options if she arrives to what is, and she doesn't know anybody in what is, but she can't, according to the U.S. Government, she can't just wait in Nogales where she's at least managed to rent an apartment and knows a couple of people. Because then she wouldn't, she won't be accepted when ever her next court date is, which is probably going to be in May. So it's putting everybody in a situation of vulnerability, but it's particularly affecting those indigenous language speakers who struggle to adjust. Joanna Williams (09:04): And then the third reality that we've seen in the last week or so is this what were announced as rapid expulsions, which goes to this U S government border shutdown. Just for, again, for geographical context, Nogales is one of the primary ports of deportation along the border. And we're one of the largest cities in this part of the border. So we're the largest city along the Arizona border. And all of the deportations of folks who have been detained in Arizona have for many years gone through Nogales. And because we're a place that with more services, we have the bus lines, we have systems in place. Well now with these rapid expulsions, people aren't being returned through Nogales. They're being pushed back in the smaller cities where they have much fewer access to services. So I was just hearing this morning, for example, that in the town of Sasabey, migrants are being rapidly expelled. Some of them are being brought over being received by group Obeta. Others are just walking into the Mexican side of the border really with no sense of what the next steps are. They're in complete legal limbo. Mario Moreno (10:16): So, you really painted a compelling picture there. So there's, there's really, the border shutdown has exacerbated, in your words, what had already been a fairly concerning situation. You had nearly 60,000 migrants and asylum seekers stranded on the U S Mexico on the Mexican side of the U.S.-Mexico border because of Remain in Mexico and metering. And because of the border shutdown, they've, there's, there's, you know, three additional challenges that migrants and asylum seekers face, which is fairly concerning. I guess the question then becomes, you know, what's the alternative part of the argument on the COVID-19 border shutdown, an announcement was that they were restricting travel for all non-essential travel. The argument is the argument that you're making sort of that asylum seekers and migrants should be considered a central travel. And if, so, is that legal obligations that a humanitarian application or is that just informed by what you're seeing on the ground of the impact that this policy could have on, on these populations? Joanna Williams (11:18): Exactly. So we, we argue that asylum seekers asylum is literally a matter of life and death. This, this dad that I mentioned from the state of Mexico, he has literally came within a few inches of death. And that's the experience of many asylum seekers. So their pursuit of life is an essential pursuit. It is essential travel far more essential to be honest than the travel that I make across the border, which I'm still considered an essential traveler even when these asylum seekers are not, which I think is a great injustice. Ubut, I still want to be able to go over it and provide meals, but just to put it in context, they're both essential travel, but asylum-seekers have been more essential travel. Uand I think what, what we forget sometimes is that we do have other ways to manage this reality,uin ways that have been successful in the past. Joanna Williams (12:16): So I was speaking with one, one woman who again has been stranded for several months under metering and she said if I was processed at the port, if I was allowed to enter the asylum process, I would be more than happy to go to my sister's house in the United States because many of the families that are stranded on the Mexican side of the border have relatives or or friends in the U S who are ready to receive them. She said, I will go to my sister's house and I will completely self quarantine for the next 14 days. Mario Moreno (12:50): They're even aware of the fact that there's a global pandemic and they're even willing to take public health precautions on their own if let into the country. Joanna Williams (12:57): Exactly. People are really aware of the health implications. They're very aware actually of how it's more likely that the pandemic is reaching Mexico from the United States than the other way around. But they're also want to be attentive to not being a carrier of coronavirus and to taking the necessary measures. So if we allowed people to go to their us sponsors and self quarantine there I think that could be a really a best practice because then people are in isolation. They're in a more stable place than the folks in this situation of instability on the Mexican border. And to your question about whether it is that legal or is that humanitarian? I would say it's legal. It's humanitarian and it's in the best interest of public health. So it's all three. We have an asylum law that has to be obeyed and that has been unfortunately discarded. We also should have humanitarian concern, but it's also, this is what's best, even if we're only acting from our self-interest, this is in the best interest of our public health, is to have people in isolated homes in which they can self quarantine in this time of social distancing. Mario Moreno (14:12): But in lieu of that happening, which, you know, as you said, we're in a very difficult moment with the Trump administration taking a series of actions over the, over the last several years to, to chip away at the right to asylum. And then with this, you know, temporary shutdown basically, and the right to asylum that the alternative, you know, sounds promising. And it is, it sounds like it's the right thing to do. But in lieu of that you know, the Mexican asylum system has been overwhelmed over the last couple of years because of remain in Mexico because of metering, because all of these actions that's one entire conversation that we could have. But the other side of the conversation now that you add in a complete shutdown on the Mexican border and you add in covid-19, a global pandemic that that you know, is spreading worldwide. How is the Mexican public health system equipped and ready to, to, to serve and protect the needs of migrant and asylum seeking populations on the US Mexico border? Joanna Williams (15:11): Unfortunately, we haven't seen evidence that the Mexican government is ready for this responsibility. And again, here we could have a longer conversation. I think it is important to note that these are policies that the Mexican government agreed to. So in their agreement to MPP the Mexican government said they would provide for health education and work and shelter for individuals who are returned. The Mexican government has assumed responsibilities that it simply doesn't have the capacity to carry out. And that means unfortunately that the, that migrants are going to be the last in line as a Mexican government is looking to respond and treat the effects of covid-19 in Mexico. And that's why I think it's particularly important that we see this as a shared responsibility, but we especially focus on the impact of, of us policy and putting people in this situation of vulnerability. Mario Moreno (16:07): So, so it sounds like really what winds up happening is that the responsibility of protecting and caring for the health and safety of these migrants oftentimes falls on shelters like the ones that, that the keynote border initiative in Sonata and Nogales. So, so I guess the question becomes, you know, how has your work shifted as a result of, of both the U S shutting down the border a week ago and, and you know, the Mexican government committing to all these steps but not quite delivering on any of them. How are you attempting to sort of deal with a population that had been stranded for a long time on the us Mexico border and who now also might face the risks of a public health pandemic that isn't being adequately addressed? Joanna Williams (16:58): I think you're precisely right. They didn't in the void of government and the void of Mexican and us government action. Ultimately it's the civil society groups and individuals that have to step up and are stepping up as the, as best as we can, but with far fewer resources and far less capacity than a government could have. So just to, at the keynote border initiative, we've been really conscious about, first of all, the absolute necessity of the food services that we provide. So we can't have people going hungry just because of Covid-19. And so that we say we have to maintain even as we scale back on other pieces. So we haven't, for example, been giving out as many clothing, as much clothing in recent weeks. Because of that's beyond our capacity at this moment as we try to just food and provide very limited medical services. Joanna Williams (17:54): The, we have volunteered nurses and doctors that used to come down to provide medical services. Some of them are in the high risk category and it's not advisable for them to be in contact with a large population. And some of them are providing medical services to respond in, in other institutions. So we essentially don't have those volunteers, nurses and doctors in the Red Cross here in Nogales is shut down for now. So we're doing the best that we can to provide the services that are possible and the medical side. And again, continuing with that absolutely essential service of providing food for people. What we've changed is we we exist in a space for, so w what used to happen is that we would bring people in to our space. We call it the comidor or dining room for meals. Joanna Williams (18:46): And then after that time provides several services within the space. In this, over the course of the last several months, we've had to do multiple rounds of meals because we have so many migrants who are stranded here relative to the capacity of our physical space. But in light of Covid-19, we've shifted all of our services to outside of the building. So we're providing all the food to go form and families. We're asking families that are able to, so unless they're a single mom to just send one representative of the family to come and get the, to go food for the whole rest of the family to reduce the amount of crowding as people are waiting for their food. Cause there are long lines as people wait for breakfast. So those are some of the ways that we're adapting and you know, trying to take the appropriate measures to protect staff and protect the migrants. And to the extent that in this long line people can stand six feet apart to try to encourage folks to do that as well. Right, Mario Moreno (19:46): Right. So I'm trying to, to understand sort of all this from the perspective of, of a migrant or an asylum seeker who you know, left their home country in search of, of, of a better future, but our life of safety, of, of, of a number of, for a number of different reasons was forced to stay on, in dangerous Mexican border towns and sort of figure out their way to, to stay safe while they awaited for their asylum hearing or they even just waited the chance to present a sound claim and now faces the additional risk of, of of, of a pandemic and of exposure to Covid-19. Do you have a sense of, of what options these, these individuals, what's next? What kind of options are they sort of trying to figure out in terms of the next actions that they want to take? Is it stay and try to stay as healthy as possible? Is it go back home? Is it something else? Joanna Williams (20:43): Yeah, that's what the several individuals are grappling with of whether to stay in Nogales in this prolonged limbo or whether to return to their home towns. What I'd say is that several w in the last week or two violence is flared up in really dramatic ways. And some of the hometowns of folks of the Mexican asylum seekers that we accompany so many of the Mexican asylum seekers are from Guirerro. And I've said that recently their houses have been burned. Other family members have been killed, that there's been a sudden spike in their communities. So some people are thinking about going home, not because they think it's safer, but because they left a family member there and they want to go and rescue that family member and try to find another alternative. So it's going home and staying isn't really a viable option for most individuals who've been displaced. But they don't have any viable options at this point either. Mario Moreno (21:42): That's yeah, I can't imagine being in that situation. One of the, one of the, one of the things that's really fascinating about KBI is, is that you have this really compelling and, and, and sort of unique view into the world. You know, we talk about us border policy being, you know, infringing on human rights. We talk about Mexico not living up to its commitments that it made in reaching agreements on Remain in Mexico metering and, and shutting down the, the border. We talk about all these big policies and systems, but on a day to day basis, all of you interact with migrants. So from that perspective and from the perspective that, that your organization is, is sort of nurtured by, by Catholic social teaching as an organizing principle, what's missing and in how we talk about this, about the, the issue of immigration in the media and the public writ large. Joanna Williams (22:42): I think the biggest missing piece in one that migrants here bring up on a constant basis. When I asked them, well, what do you want people in the larger public or folks in the United States to understand is that we have more that's in more in common than what separates the than what separates us. So there's more ways in which individuals in the United States can identify with migrants. And I have similarities to migrants than the differences that oftentimes are, are seen as are the most obvious. So just an example, I'd say, you know, what, mother and the United States would want their children to be in a dangerous situation. What mother wouldn't do it everything or sacrifice to be able to provide a better life for their children? Those are very similar desires. The desires of family, desires of safety and stability. Joanna Williams (23:38): There's so many ways in which we can identify with migrants at the border or in a general sense. And I think we ignore that whether, whether we ignore that from a perspective of a xenophobia of seeing people as the other or even from a perspective of so-called humanitarianism, of helping the poor migrants. What we ignore is the similarities as human beings and their own power and voice. And that's something that I've been really struck by in the last month or two. As I mentioned, Remain in Mexico's existed for a while along the border, but in Nogales was just implemented in starting in January. And I've had the opportunity to meet so many families that are so courageous and determined and speaking out against injustice and in believing that another world is possible. And it doesn't have to be that way. I, and that's the other vision. Joanna Williams (24:35): So, so listening to those voices, but also understanding that it doesn't have to be this way, that there are other ways we can manage migration and, and welcome people. There's a phrase from the Jesuit migration network of hospitality reminds us that another world is possible. And I think we have a lack of imagination at this moment as we become closed in by fear and we're really missing out on so many blessings and so much fruit. That's the Catholic perspective as well. So we miss out on the, on the opportunity to see God and receive God's graces when we are so entrenched in a mentality of rejection, of limitation and scarcity. Mario Moreno (25:19): So that was a really poignant and, and, and, and beautifully said statement on, on how we need to imagine a different outcome on the border and as it relates to migrants. So, so to all the listeners of the, Beyond the Wall podcast, who care about this issue deeply and, and who are looking for ways to, to stay involved in, into help in what is increasingly very desperate and hard times, what's your message to them? Joanna Williams (25:48): So I think there's two important realities or important ways to think about how to respond. The first is to recognize the power of individual actions. So if we're really going to construct this better world that is possible, then it does matter to call your congressperson, to write an editorial and submit it to your local paper, to speak to friends and neighbors even via virtually in these times of social distancing to help them understand the reality of migrants in the border and feel closer and identify more with them. So not, I think it's important that listeners not become overwhelmed by the context of policy and news and this constant flow of information, but recognize your own power in this moment to, to do good and be a part of transformation. And the second is that in that process the invitation is to incredible persistence. Joanna Williams (26:47): So I've think, and I'm constantly inspired by the women who I know who have crossed the border five or six times to try to reunite with their family members in the U S after being deported and separated from their kids. And the dad from who was deported from Las Vegas, who the other day said to me there's no way that I wouldn't go back to my daughter. And so that spirit of persistence is also the, what the invitation for us is in advocacy and in, in engagement and creating this other world individual action matters, but not just one individual action. Be as persistent as the migrants at the border are and allow that to propel you forward. Because only then will we be able to create transformation, Mario Moreno (27:34): Persistence, action, and imagination of a better world. I think those are three important words to keep in mind during this time. Joanna Williams, thank you for being with us today and keep up the important work down in Nogales. Joanna Williams (27:50): Thanks for the invitation and attention. And it's a blessing to be able to amplify folks' voices.  

We started off the year talking about Scotch… and now…we’re talking Irish Whiskey? It’s not another April Fool’s joke. We had the opportunity to sit down and capture one of the most interesting stories in Irish Whiskey with Alex Conyngham, co-founder of Slane Irish Whiskey. We talk castles and rock concerts because that’s one big aspect of his history. Then we get into the dynamics of Irish whiskey and if there are commonalities between bourbon like sourcing, regulation, and financing a distillery. Then we discuss the role Brown-Forman plays and how they are trying to appeal to both bourbon and Irish Whiskey consumers. Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. Barrell Craft Spirits is always trying to push the envelope of blending whiskey in America. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: DISCUS hand sanitizer portal: https://www.distilledspirits.org/distillers-responding-to-covid-19/distilleries-producing-hand-sanitizer/ Less than 100 bottles left from 3 different barrels of Pursuit Series left on Seelbachs: https://seelbachs.com/search?q=pursuit This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about drinking bourbon during the COVID-19 pandemic. Where did you grow up and how did you get into whiskey? Tell us about your rock concerts. How did you decide to do the concerts? What is a good Irish cocktail? Where is Slane? What makes Irish whiskey unique? Do people source Irish whiskey? What is the process? How did you decide to start the distillery? Did you use a consultant to get started? What's glamping? Tell us about your dad. How did you finance the distillery? What was it like to work with Brown-Forman? How big is the distillery? What age can you sell Irish whiskey? Tell us about the whiskey? Do you have your own yeast? What's the typical Irish whiskey proof? How long are you aging? Tell us about your packaging. Would bourbon drinkers like Slane Irish whiskey? Tell us about the ultra premium Irish whiskey category. What is the price point? 0:00 Have you held a bottle of bourbon in your hand and wondered, how is this made? Sure, there's the grains and the barrels and all that science that goes into it. But what about the package design, class manufacturing, shipping logistics, or purchase orders for thousands of cork stoppers. These are only a handful of things that you need to know. But with the University of Louisville online distilled spirits business certificate, you're only a few clicks away from learning from industry experts from renowned spirits businesses like brown Forman, jack daniels, and more. Learn more about this online six course certificate at U of l.me. Slash bourbon pursuit. 0:37 Well, listen, I always love drinking Irish whiskey in the heart of bourbon country. 0:53 Hale you cool cats and kittens out there. It's Episode 247 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your hosts Kenny. 1:00 I hope you're hanging in there because I'm trying to hang in there. We're all watching Tiger came together to try to get through this. But in the midst of all what's going on, not much has been happening with actual bourbon. And the industry has kind of been shifting focus to figure out how it can help the situation. So we've got some more updates there for you on that. And as you know by now with our reports last week that many facilities have turned overproduction to begin making hand sanitizer. Last week reported that discuss or better known as the distilled spirits Council of the United States was working with the federal government on including distilleries into the Cova 19 relief plan, and they were successful. As a part of the economic relief package. Congress has eased tax regulations so that distillers producing desperately needed hand sanitizer to address the nationwide shortfall would not have to pay a federal excise tax on the alcohol use. This package also includes measures to help small business loans and small business operating costs, that many smaller distilleries around the nation are going to need 2:00 While their doors are closed for visitors, and if you're in the medical field and you're looking for sanitization supplies, or need some for your local community, discus has created a portal that lists every distillery in the US making hand sanitizer. The portal also lists distillers who need supplies, and those who need help distributing, you can get this with the link in our show notes. We've also been seeing more control states getting tighter, Alabama has closed down several locations, but Pennsylvania still remains the only state that has all 600 of its brick and mortar stores currently closed. This has led to other opportunities for distilleries in Pennsylvania to begin shipping directly to Pennsylvania residents as well as doing curbside pickup. While discus has also been urging the government officials to reopen their doors immediately. Some Pennsylvania residents are even going to extreme measures of driving to places like Delaware, New Jersey and New York to stock up and the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board is now discussing 3:00 The possibility of reopening online ordering during this time. And two weeks ago, we reported on Kentucky House Bill 415. And what that could mean for interstate commerce. A version of the bill has passed that allows distilleries to ship bourbon and other spirits directly to consumers. Now, here's what it means for shipments coming into the state of Kentucky. So out of state distilleries and retailers can purchase a shipping permit for shipping distilled spirits, wine and malt beverages into the state of Kentucky. shipment details need to be submitted to the Department of Revenue every month or a 15% tax on the grocery receipt must be paid. Now here's what it means for shipments going out of state. In state holders of these permits that allow the sale of alcohol by the package will be able to ship to consumers outside of reciprocal states but also following state and local laws of that particular consumer. Now it's important to note that this bill would only affect shipping 4:00 In other spirits from the top of Kentucky's three tier system, that means it's the producer, leaving out the distributors and the retailers now giving consumers the option to purchase direct from the distillery. This is only available so far in Kentucky but serves as a benchmark and a template that other states could soon follow. So it's a huge win for consumers out there. House Bill 415 will head to the full Kentucky house for a vote relatively soon. As this pandemic continues, we've seen an explosion in e commerce. Many platforms like drizzly and thirsty are going to beat their annual projections by five or six x. It's finally a revolution into the digital age for spirits because it's an industry that's been lacking for far too long. And next week's podcast is featuring Corey rellis, the CEO of drizzly, so make sure you tune in and don't miss that. And as a small plug, we've got less than 100 bottles left from three different barrels of pursuit series. 5:00 left on seal box comm we know it sucks being stuck at home. But hopefully you can do it just a little bit more with some hand selected barrels from the bourbon pursuit team. Are you really bored at home? Like so bored that you would even have a conversation with Alexa? Well, the team over at go bourbon calm decided to put it to the test. And they asked Alexa, what's your favorite bourbon? And she replied, definitely bullet. They even quizzed Alexa on bourbon by asking, what's the difference between bourbon and scotch? So if you're looking to sit there and put Alexa to the test, go on, give it a try. See what you come up with. We started off the year in 2020, talking about scotch and now we're talking about Irish whiskey, who would have thought, but we had the opportunity to sit down and capture one of the most interesting stories in Irish whiskey. Alex Cunningham is one of the founders of slain Irish whiskey. We talked about way more than just whiskey though. First, we talk about castles and rock concerts, because that's 6:00 One big aspect of his history. Then we get into the dynamics of Irish whiskey. And if there's some commonalities between it and bourbon, such as sourcing regulation, and how do you go about financing a distillery in say, Ireland, then we discuss the role of brown Forman and what they are doing and trying to make bourbon and Irish Whiskey consumers happy at the end of the day. If you're a part of the bourbon pursuit Patreon community, make sure you're joining john and the other folks over the discord server where there's a virtual happy hour happening almost every single day and zoom. I think by now many of us are becoming experts in zoom. So come in and join in the fun. All right, let's get on with the show. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich, with above the char 6:46 I'm Joe Beatrice, founder of barrel craft spirits, we're always trying to push the envelope of blending whiskey in America. Find out more at barrel bourbon calm. 6:56 I'm Fred medic, and this is above the char as well. 7:00 All isolated and supposed to stay six feet away from one another one very odd and very good consequences came up from this for me personally, and that is my TV bourbon is going dry. If you've listened to this podcast before, you would have heard me complain at one point or another about my TV bourbon and how that's the one vise that I have when it comes to sipping a little too much. That's right my TV bourbon as I'm watching the Vikings are justified or Better Call Saul or reruns of Breaking Bad or the wire. I find myself having one bourbon two Bourbons. Whoa, boy, let me have a third and hey, after that, let's go ahead and have a nightcap of a fourth. It's happened met sometimes twice in a week and you know what? That whiskey goes straight to my hips and my belly and I tell you what, it's the one thing that I cannot shake when I'm in the gym but 8:00 For whatever reason, I just don't want to sit on the couch and watch TV as we're isolated. You know what I'm doing. I'm cleaning stuff, organizing things. I'm doing all the things that I was supposed to do you know, when I first got married, and I just kept putting them off and putting them off and putting them off. This past week, I taught my son how to use a drill and we fix the fence and fix the door and I cleaned the garage and I'm like, holy cow, Who's this guy? Where's he been the last 15 years. This isolation business has made me productive, more clean. And I'm actually on a really good schedule with my tastings. The one thing that I have given up, it seems, is my TV bourbon. I learned long ago to look on the bright side. So I hope you're able to find some comfort and find some things right now that helps you get through this time of isolation. And hey, maybe it's a bourbon. Maybe it's two, but I do recommend not doing it while you're watching TV because 9:00 that could lead to four or five. And that's this week's above the char Hey, you heard me mentioned all this stuff that I'm doing with my tastings. I'm doing nightly live tastings every day at nine o'clock on my YouTube. I'm doing a face off of something in my office. Never know what that's going to be. So make sure you go to my YouTube and click that subscribe button and notifications. So you can check it out. Until next week. Cheers. 9:30 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. But you know, we might be branching out every once in a while and trying new things. And in today's episode, we are again branching out from bourbon trying something different. Because you know, we get we get kind of stuck in our hole in Kentucky and we think that you know, bourbon is the all be all and there's this whole other world of whiskey out there. You know, you've got sir Yeah, exactly. 9:58 I mean, we forget that 10:00 bourbon is just such a small segment of the whiskey category in itself, you know, you've got scotch and today we're gonna be looking at Irish whiskey. You know, we've I've been to Ireland, I've been to Dublin I've, I've, I've had a few of them over there. And I've, I've enjoyed them. I really know the powers of the world and stuff like that. And I'm excited about our guests being able to to try something that's new. That's, you know, that they're building and everything out of there, too. Yeah, and I'm ready to start this Irish Whiskey pursuit podcast. You know, what we should we should licenses what we need to do now. With everything proceed. 10:35 Now I know we talked about scotch and rums and Irish Whiskey is one of the few things I have had and like, kinda really enjoyed because it kind of reminds me a lot of similarities of bourbon not so much but it's just, it's more approachable I guess from a bourbon standpoint to make the transition to it. So, but the thing is, I know nothing about it as usual other than Ireland. It comes from Ireland. 11:00 It's Irish. And yeah, so I'm excited to meet our guests. And this is a beautiful looking product and excited to hear what is Irish whiskey and about this product and let's taste it. Yeah, absolutely. So today on the show, we have Alex Cunningham. Alex is the co founder of slean Irish whiskey. So Alex, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Now, we had talked about this before because I thought I was gonna butcher your name. incredibly bad because it is spelled This is Cunningham, by the way, and you know where we come from around here. It's like see you and and I am his his CEO in y in gh am so I thought it was gonna be something that can be like, how can I say this? He's like, he's like cutting him. And I was like, that's awesome. We just like to confuse people. Yeah. But you'd mentioned that really hadn't been somebody eons ago. They just changed it. Yeah, we put the wire in there and actually the wire ties in with our with our family Christ, I guess. So. That goes all the way back to the 1100s and it's in it's on the bottle of slains that was 12:00 Before the See you in and I am so I think that's probably where the posers I think that's probably when everybody came over and they had to change their names that probably had something to do with that. Yeah, my family history had that same exact thing happened to them as well. So, but anyway, I kind of want to talk and let's start a little bit from the beginning about you, you know talk about where you kind of grew up assuming it's Ireland because you you know, you're definitely not from like, East Texas is what it sounds like, you know, kind of talked about where you grew up and kind of how you got into whiskey. Sure. slain is the place that's where I call home and we named the whiskey after that. It's a stunning little village about 45 minutes north of Dublin, in an area called the Boyne Valley. And believe it or not Irish Whiskey was bigger than scotch back in the 1800s. And there were a lot of distilleries in the boiling Valley because we are on limestone bedrock there. So we've got great water. Same is here. Yeah, exactly. There's a reason though. scotch and Irish like 13:00 Kentucky because they were off to that water for making whiskey. 13:04 Earlier today, yeah, good horses, Motherland, but it's hotter and hill here. Exactly. He's patenaude. He goes a little bit. It's okay. So yeah, the water quality's really important. That's why a lot of the distilleries were there. And also we got some of the best farmland in the country. And so I farm as well. My family's been farming and slain for generations, and we grow barley. And we weren't growing that historically to give it to capital for feed. But we love our Irish whiskey. So we said Why the hell are we giving it to the cattle wouldn't be a lot more fun to turn it into whiskey. So they set out to do your crop rotate. Yes, are really Yeah, really important. It didn't actually used to happen too much, but monoculture and continuous is not a continuous crop cultivation ain't good for the ground. So what we do now is we introduce rotation crops, we plant Hydros every year to boost the biodiversity. So after a crop of volume I put in beans it'll put the nitrogen back in the soil. It'll again 14:00 Putting nitrogen eggs. And I think you're talking right my alley over my knees like, let's talk coding. 14:07 It's a big part of it right you've got a good whiskey comes from good ingredients. Sure we take that very seriously, but we're the only Irish distillery that would be surrounded by its own land bank. So we've got 1500 acres surrounding the distillery. I grew up about 2000 tons of barley, and you can make a lot of whiskey from that. So that was one of the reasons we got into the business in the first place. My Irish Whiskey journey, I guess, started I was a brand ambassador back in 1999, working on the leading Irish whiskey in the category, so that was where my journey started. But it wasn't until the Reddit is a Jamison Bernie che was okay, just a guess. Yeah. And you know, and that that brand has opened up the category for Irish. And now I think people are looking for a little bit more choice, but 14:52 we started our own journey with the whiskey app slain, really back in around 2009. So slightly 15:00 At that time, the family home is called slaying castles. So that's where I grew up big old rambling place pretty cold, but wonderful. Hide and Seek was good. And this is this is like real castles not like Walt Disney kind of castles is real. It's a real kitty castle. Yeah, and this is a real one. But there's a big responsibility to a place like that going. So we have survived by diversifying and back in the early 80s. My dad Henry, who I started this brand with decided he was going to turn the front garden into a rock music venue. And so we started doing rock concerts in 81. With a you to the opening act at first show. 15:42 Yeah, so that was good. And the gate you do? Well, they were just starting out everybody, somewhere. And then since then we've had everyone from the stones, Bowie Springsteen, and on three weeks time, we're gonna be having Metallica arriving and we just went to Metallica city. 16:00 It's awesome. Yeah, it's really good. He's had the chance to meet all those people. But now he gets the idea. It's like that 16:07 level, right? This is the real highlight. Yeah, we're the A plus plus. Yeah, totally. So that's gonna be a good show, and we'll be selling, slain to that crowd. So we're gonna have a bit of fun. So we came out of rock and roll and capitalized on the awareness of slain. By adding value to the barley, we grow ourselves and turning into whiskey, which is something that we love drinking. But learning how to make it was a whole different journey. I want to hit on this rock and roll part a little bit more. So kind of like why why did the idea of saying like, let's just turn the front garden into a concert venue, like a field of dreams, we'll build it and they will come? Yeah, well, slightly. So Ireland was a pretty tough place in the late 70s, early 80s. We had some difficult times in the country and dad loved his rock and roll. And he had to find ways to bring extra income in in that climate. And he just said, let's give a chance for everyone to forget about the troubles for a day and come together through music and practice. 17:00 approached him from Belfast, and they didn't have any money to put the gig on so a guy from the east on the lending who became known as Mr. Everything, because everything's gonna be alright and 17:12 he put up the money and they managed to put that first gig on and then you know we're now Ireland's leading outdoor music. How many people are we talking about? 80,000 Wow, wow. Okay, so it's a big garden so it's like Nokes, or I forget, I forget it's like a castle like I got to keep that in my head here like it's pretty massive. Yeah, not for castle. Yeah, but yeah, an actual castle. Yeah, so lots of people have made that journey to slain and I know they get the chance to try the whiskey while sir or while so there as well. So we're going to be smashing it. Some slang cocktails on the day for Metallica. So should be good fun. You gotta get a particular cocktail you go to because around here it's it's old fashions Manhattan's you know that's that's kind of the go twos and you can mix it with a rye or bourbon, but kind of talk about like a an Irish type of cocktail. It's used with Irish whiskey. Yeah, well, funny. There's there's a good amount of 18:00 American influence in slain and actually makes a surprisingly good old fashioned no that's maybe a little controversial as we're hearing a lot about okay, but we've got our readers off some really nice heavy brown sugar notes in the liquid and I think that works very well for an old fashioned in fact the bath one of the better ones I've tasted had no sugar syrup a little huh no it's that's the way to do it. I mean, you know, no flavor additives or anything like that. The D model the cherries or do you kind of like I love a bit of modeling you know? Yeah. 18:31 No muddler no muddler for you? Yeah, but you got you got to do the look sardos yeah they're like oh my god I'll delicious if there's there's no like sorrows and like send it back. Now getting so geographically where where is slain? So you're talking in between Dublin and Belfast on the East Coast were a few miles inland, as I said in the boiling Valley. So if you're heading straight up from Dublin about 45 minute journey 18:58 and we literally have the room 19:00 Boyne which is our water supply for the distillery flows right through the farm. Okay, well with the rock who's the you met some cool people I know obviously us but who are some of the most memorable or do you have any stories like of festivals like that? You know Come on. Yeah, well when I when it comes to what happens with artists what what what happens in slain stays and slay it's like Vegas, but Nivea. I have been lucky enough to to to meet some and and 19:28 Dave Grohl springs to mind when the Foo Fighters played. He was an absolute gentle learner in here he performed in the pouring rain and did an outstandingly good gig. Total gentleman. So yeah, I think they love coming to slain because it's a very special place. There's a benefit of the Irish crowd. We got the backdrop of the castle and the river and then of course the whiskey added bonus. So talk about Irish whiskey. What makes obviously being from Ireland, but what what goes into an Irish was good and makes it you know, unique. 20:00 So I think Irish is a category is seeing some really strong growth in this country and it's doing doing pretty well in Kentucky for us. I think it's a very approachable category. So in terms of the definitions, we got a pretty extensive technical file that governs the rules are making Irish whiskey and I won't go into too much detail but what's different about slain I suppose the distillery is we actually make three different types of whiskey at the whim of distillery. So across the water in Scotland, you typically have a malt distillery or you have a grain distillery. slains actually got pots and columns. So we got three parts deals, because we believe in triple distillation. And then we got six column stills, because we're a protected heritage site. So we can build two tall columns, which would be what you normally do, we have to split the two into three and six columns. That allows us to make three different types of Irish whiskey. So you've got grain whiskey, which is a little similar 21:00 To I guess American as in its column distilled can be a mash bill of malt and other cereals. Then we make triple cereals that's that's when we don't hear too often. You know, most people will talk about different grains, you know, early cereals too often Yeah. Is that an Irish thing? Or just I guess is that is that analogous to a? No, that's probably maybe a bit of an Alex thing. I am a farmer. So I guess we grow different cereals on the farm, primarily barley, though. But the pot stills that we have, we make two different types of whiskey out of that we do a triple still malt whiskey, which is from 100% malted barley, so that's kind of similar to scotch. But then we do something called parts still, which is only made in Ireland. And you take a malted and unmalted, barley and the mash bill and you run it through the pot stills, and that leads to some really big charactered kind of quite oily, delicious whiskies that develop dried fruit nuts, they get older, and we are making that claim now but it's going to take a bit of time for those to be ready. So that's a few years away. What we're focusing 22:00 on now is our slain blend. And I think you asked what makes Irish whiskey. Not all Irish Whiskey is triple distill, but a lot of it is and we believe in that too. And that delivers a really lovely, smooth, accessible character. But what we've done on top of that is we've developed a triple cast maturation. So that adds character. So triple the steel for smoothness, triple cost for character. What do you mean by triple cast? So like, is it honoring? Sure, sure. It says it right here in the label. Let me see. So we've got a, I see virgin, Virgin season and Sherry. Okay, so it is right there in the label. Yeah, so three very different animals. So as they go through each cask in separately or as a like a blend of the three different guests know, so it's a little bit like when you're mixing your music, we like to do them separately so that you get a lot more control, because then when it comes to the blending of the three, you can actually fully dial in to the impact of the one barrel. So this is not a sequential, we're not taking the same batch and running. 23:00 Through a library. So effectively what we what we did is so the distillery went into production about a year and a half ago. So fairly recently now anyone who knows anything about whiskey is you don't make whiskey that quick. So to get ourselves started, we actually bought malt and grain whiskey from other distilleries in Ireland, between three and about 10 years. And it was good juice. But we wanted to try and create our own flavor profiles. So we actually took that liquid, we blended it in different proportions and split it between three different barrels for roughly two more years, and that secondary maturation are owned. So let's we'll feed through the same violin program, but it's those three different barrels that give you the unique kind of rich, robust character slang. So is that pretty is that common and are like this, so for sourcing to start out, because it's pretty common here? Yeah. So we're up to, we're up to about a, I think, close to 20 distilleries, okay, and come from a base of only three 24:00 So this has all happened in the last five years or so. So Irish Whiskey just like it is happening here a lot of distilleries are springing up and yeah to get themselves started. They are they are sourcing from others and we did that too. And we're we're perfectly honest about that. I guess the difference is we didn't just buy what we bought and create a plan and put it out to market we actually spent two years doing our own maturation at slain to try and build our own flavor profile. Is it so like here when we source was I don't we source our own? Do you have to go like through brokers and like or can you just go straight to the story? What's the process like over there? To buy the whiskey? Yeah, to that whiskey. Yeah, I mean, at one time Irish Whiskey because of the growth that was going on, it was pretty hard to get supply. But we were lucky enough that we did get some good juice and some of it was quite old as well, which wasn't wasn't easy, and we probably paid a pretty penny for it. But again, we wanted to deliver one slain launch, we wanted the best possible liquid and that's why we bought good whiskey to start 25:00 With and did spend an extra two years staying out of the market to add that triple cast character. So it came with a cost but I think it was worth it for sure in this was 2009 timeframe is when this started. And then I started out small reasons. So the 2009 we originally myself and dad, we played in the whiskey sector and slightly different brand attached to slain initially. So we worked with other distilleries at that time. And then there was big changes in the industry and about 2012 big acquisitions happened. And we actually lost our supply at that stage. And then we did what I had always wanted to do, which was to build our own distillery, because ultimately, the only way to have full control and credibility, I think, is to build your own distillery and it was a bit of a crazy journey to get there. But But we did. So when you're you approached your dad, you're like, we're gonna start a whiskey company, her words, you know, what was his initial reaction? Yeah, I mean, look, if you 26:00 grow up in a place like slain. Dad always taught me you know you are, you're never going to own this place. You're just protecting it for the next generation. So that that that long term vision, you need that in the whiskey business. So nothing happens in a day. So people thought were a bit crazy was actually dad's idea to start it and dad as a maverick. I mean, he was the guy who opened the front garden and invited them Lizzie to come stomp around so he what he wasn't fitting was another good banner. Yeah, well, one of the great tracks whiskey in the jar, you know, which dad used to love playing in the nightclub, which we also haven't had in the castle back in the day. So whiskey. 26:38 Whiskey was always a global bag with you. 26:42 I got a big suitcase. 26:44 But, uh, No dad, it was dad's idea to start the whiskey because he he puts laying on the map through the gigs and we wanted to find a way to I guess capitalize on that. Plus, you know, he and I love drinking whiskey and we're already 27:00 growing the raw materials so that the kind of the stars aligned. And to see these buildings which are right next to the castle, they're the old 18th century stables. And ultimately they were linked to the farm. So they had grain stores, for example, they now they are now home to the distillery. So we're kind of its history repeating a few like, we're adding the value on site, creating local employment and making some great whiskey. So like, we're when you're starting a whiskey company over there, like are you like, because I'm assuming you didn't know how to make whiskey if I didn't. So is there like consultants and experts kind of like your you know, their, you know, the late day pick roll a lot of people use to kind of, you know, help get them started getting the recipes figured out? How did y'all go about that? So I would have to say the Irish Whiskey industry is very collaborative, and I got a lot of good support from other people in the industry. I asked a hell of a lot of people a lot of questions and I kind of learned as I as I went along. I learned a little bit of I guess, from my 28:00 Ambassador is a little bit about selling whiskey but didn't know much about making it. Now I don't profess to be a master distiller and master blender. But if we were going to build a distillery, I needed to know what we were doing and where we were putting our money. So I visited distilleries in Ireland, Scotland over here in America probably annoyed a lot of people a lot of questions. But we built up what I would call a old school distillery in terms of how we make the whiskey. So we got wooden wash backs, we got a hand beaten, copper pot stills, three of them. But when it comes to how we kind of make it, there's a lot of state of the art stuff there as well. So sustainability is something that's really important to me. And so we have a lot of energy recovery built in. So whenever we're heating something up, we're cooling something down. And we've even invested in an anaerobic digester on site which will take those what some people call waste. After distillation. We'll be feeding that to microorganisms. 29:00 They create by gas and when we burned by gas to heat stills, so that's going to reduce our carbon footprint by about 25 to 30%. So everything was slain is built to last and I hope that was slain. You know, it's not just about protecting for the next generation, it's actually leaving at that and when you start it, that's all right. Where did you get that from? Was that, you know, was that ingrained in your family? Or is that yes, I think ingrained in family and it's just it's, I guess, my own personal belief. 29:28 My wife Kareena, who? Who runs an amazing glamping site, and other reason comes slain on long like glamping Yeah, that's been a thing. I'm sorry. It's glamping be right up your alley. It's like camping for for techies. Oh, exactly. I'm, I'm on board. Yeah. So so we have an organic farm and we grow veggies and we rare animals and we obviously produce barley. But the glamping allows people to kind of stay in immerse themselves in the landscape. So that kind of lower footprint style of living is just hi myself in Korean. I like to live our lives. If we 30:00 Can and the lessons that we've learned that we apply to how we make our whiskey. Talk about your dad, kind of like what those lessons that he put on you or like. He said he was a maverick, but he is kind of talking about more about him. So he's a maverick, but he's got great intent. And, you know, he has done, you know, I wouldn't be sitting here and we wouldn't be involved in slaying if he hadn't kept the show on the road by by putting those gigs on back in the day. And he's a very resilient, determined individual. He's also one of my best friends. And we've had a lot of fun working together. I think what he taught me is you, you need to be prepared to take risks in life. 30:41 But just don't hurt anybody along the way. 30:44 And do things as as best you can. And I think that's how we've tried to approach the whiskey and that's why we ultimately stayed out of the market a little bit longer to spend those two extra years and proven the whiskey. So I think he's he's taught me to 31:00 I guess the other big lesson is do what you love but make sure you have fun doing it. So kind of talk about his his growth path because was was he ever involved in the whiskey industry he just like drinking was, again joy drinking that he didn't have any connection to to to whiskey in the past. So it's a new thing for us as a family. Bryce's closest connection was you working working? Yeah, well, it's I guess, yeah. And maybe I guess that's where, you know, when he had that lightning bolt of let's get into the whiskey business. I just as soon as he sat at all the pennies dropped. I was like, You are so right. This is something we need to do. And people thought we were crazy to do it at the time because it's a good few years ago, and I've been at this for 10 years. But look at where Irish Whiskey is now and where it's going. You know, it's really growing as a category in this country. And this is the number one market in the world for Irish Whiskey America. So it's important not in Ireland. No art DPR 31:59 the Irish had gotten behind. 32:00 You know, we were down to very few brands a few years ago and, and it's great to see all these distilleries springing up and more and more people are coming to Ireland for Irish whiskey, you know, you've got the Kentucky bourbon trail here, which is amazing. But the Irish Whiskey trail is getting going as well. So I would encourage anybody who does want to come to Ireland to make sure they get on that trail and, you know, short come to slain but there's lots of other good distilleries as well, to kind of talk about the bootstrapping process you know, you want to go and you want to start creating a distillery you know, Ryan already talked about the, you know, finding the right people and figuring that out. But like, monetarily, like you've gotta you got to figure out like, how far in debt Do we have to go to figure this out are quite fun. Yeah. 32:50 What do you get if you mix Seattle craft, Texas heritage, and Scottish know how that's to bar spirits to bar spirits traces its roots to a ranch in rural Texas, running 33:00 By the founder, Nathan Kaiser his family for six generations, Nathan grew up on the ranch with stories of relatives bootlegging moonshine. And after moving into Seattle, he wanted to keep the family tradition alive. And he opened to bar spirits in 2012. They're very traditional distillery making everything from scratch and each day starts by milling 1000 pounds of grain. Their entire product lineup consists of only two whiskies, their moonshine and the only bourbon made in Seattle. Both bottles are being featured and rack house whiskey clubs next box. rack house whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club, and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer racquel ships out to have the feature distilleries finest bottles, along with some cool merchandise in a box delivered to your door every two months. Go to rack house whiskey club.com to check it out and try some to bar for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 33:59 You 34:00 Got it. You got to figure out like how far debt Do we have to go to figure this out are quite far. Yeah. 34:06 It's still going. Yeah. So yeah, no, we did look we were we were lucky in that we ended up partnering with with Brian foreman, and myself and dad financed everything on the project up until 2015. So we hadn't laid a brick so to speak, but we had started restoring the the yards. We had designed the entire distillery and that meant our own efforts, but we did bring in some very talented people. We had a scotch stellar on board. We had one of the people who originally designed the Middleton distillery, which is down in County Cork, so we had a good team on board. And one of the proudest moments actually was when brown Forman came on board. And we shared that our technical designs we kind of expected, you know, hey, we know what we're doing making whiskey. We'll do it our own way, but actually they took the designers read and made a couple of 35:00 modifications on energy recovery that I hadn't spotted, but generally they took it as read. But financing it was was tough up until that point and we had to pay the deposit on all of the stills. Our sales come from Macmillan and Scotland. There's only two makers. There's an unsightly left and Ireland but there's four sides to Macmillan, we went with Macmillan. And that was a pretty penny to pay that deposit. And had we not done that we would have lost our place in the queue because there's such demand for stills. So I had a few sleepless nights over that one. But I was lucky enough to meet Gavin Brown, who's one of the brown family members. And we had an amazing lunch where we spoke about the potential for Irish Whiskey but actually more about what it means to be a family business and thinking about next generation. And ultimately, that led further down the road to getting the deal done. And we got that done in 2015. And pretty much as soon as we signed that deal. We started building the distillery who made that initial call or new 36:00 Meaning, like really seeking you an Irish Whiskey coming out? Or were you like looking for investors to kind of help get you past that dip? You know, is this that I call? Yeah, Brian foam was a company audit mode for for a long time. And they I knew they had publicly stated they wanted to get into the Irish category. So I guess we both had something the other party wanted but ultimately, you're like I got exactly what you're looking for. Yeah, but that's not the way it comes down to the people. And, and ultimately, it's about relationships and myself and dad felt comfortable working with what is essentially another family business. And not only that, they know how to make great whiskey. And what's really exciting about what's happened with slain or bland is actually the barrels that they bring to the table as well, because we have, I guess an advantage over some of the other brands in terms of those barrels that we can access. Mm hmm. You have an endless supply. I've seen it. Yeah, we do. We have an endless supply, but it's not just the 37:00 It's not just the level of supply, it's the quality that goes with us. Sure. So we've been able to tap into some barrels that others just can't, I'm always interested in, because I'm an entrepreneur, but not nearly on your own scale. But like, when you get absorbed by, you know, not absorbed or purchased by another company. What's it like, like, because you're when you're, you're doing everything you can to hustle and mostly make it work and do everything. And then every decision goes through you, but now you have like, you know, a parent company to kind of like, guide you and teach you like, how's that? Like, like, because you're like, Well, I know what I'm doing. But they're like, No, we know what we're doing. So what's that relationship? Why Yeah, it's a it's a transition. I guess. It's an intriguing question. I think a good one. You know, when you've I remember in the early days when the phone rang, and be like, you know, hello, welcome slaying whiskey and they're like, Can I can I speak to a marketing department? It's like, Yeah, sure. 37:52 Hello. 37:54 So you get the dollar. So 37:57 yeah, let me check to see if the rain yeah 38:00 I completely that's how it works, right and, and you're fighting as a small and then suddenly you got all of these resources and additional people. 38:09 For me, it's worked really well, because they have been incredibly inclusive, I'm still very involved in everything from liquid decisions to how we communicate about brand and how we behave. So I think the key to success is making sure that you respect and include what you started with, and it's gone better than expected. They're really good people to work with. So they're going to help embrace your core principles. Absolutely. Yeah. But they bring so much to the table. It's not just the barrels, you know, they got they got great technical expertise. So when we were when we were putting the blend together that involved it was a collaborative approach between Ireland and and some of the expertise over here, you know, and, and that worked really, really well. So I think it's a it's, I'm happy with where it's landed, for sure. So how big is the operation now? 39:00 That's over and slain. So the distillery can produce roughly we're not up to that yet, but if it could probably about the equivalent of about 600,000 cases of whiskey a year, but we're, you know, we're we're warming up slowly. young age. Yeah, you got age. So there's one thing you need in this business, it's patience. Yeah. But you know, because we make three different types of whiskey and we're planning for the future, as well as supplying stuff that will feed into the blend, where we're pretty busy. We're not up to capacity, but production certainly ramping up. So bourbon like typical as you know, alright, before we can start selling it was it with Irish as though the rules are kind of three years in a day, okay. But, you know, I would never want us to release anything until it's ready. And that's kind of the key is just give it the time it needs. Having tastes a lot of Irish I think, certainly over for the minimum for the grain. 40:00 Then malt is going to take longer. And then pot still actually takes the longest. So that's why our launches will come over, you know, give me 20 years, we'll have a lot of rain. And I'm looking forward to that. But we just focus on the blend for now. Very cool. Well, let's try it. Yeah, let's let's actually right. We've done a lot of talk him and he's, yeah, Do y'all have like a jeers thing in Irish last what was what was the scotch one? I guess? So it's similar. It's all derived from Gaelic, okay, so scotch Gaelic and Irish Gaelic? reasonably similar. But in Ireland, it's a little different. So it's launcher. launcher. launcher in a second. Okay, okay. I don't think it's actually a word, but I just made it one. So kind of kind of talk about the whiskey a little Sure. Okay, so firstly, it's an Irish Whiskey blend. So blends account for a good a good proportion of Irish Whiskey volume that is sold. 40:53 Blend means you're putting two different whiskey types in this case together. So you put malt whiskey and grain whiskey. 41:00 In the same in the same blend. However, what we did was the whiskey that that we originally purchased would have all been in American whiskey barrels, which 41:11 the vast majority of Irish and scotch is matured in American whiskey barrels because you guys can only use them once here and we are very grateful thanks very not very sustainable. Well, you know it Do you know what, it's fine because those barrels do not go to waste very, we say thanks a million we'll have those so they come over to Ireland. So that had all been an American whiskey barrels. But as I said, we then spent two years doing a secondary maturation which is which is the triple cost it brings all this lovely character. So when we're tasting slain probably makes sense to talk about these vowels individually and we can try and pick up some of that some of the notes that are there. So I just threw this will do so. Start on the nose. Now probably one of the things is going to hit you strongly as this lovely vanilla hit. Nice rich have even Yeah, for me. It's like 42:00 boozy banana foster like, bananas false now you're talking my language. Yeah, it's like, yeah, real boozy with the we talked about the caramelized sugars. You know, the torch just got off of it. Yeah, no, I like that. Actually, that delves into the second barrel. I'll focus on the first one. Sorry. No, no, no, you're totally right because a banana foster now is absolutely where we're at. And I'm delighted to pick that up. The vanilla head that comes first is really coming from that first barrel, which is a virgin American oak. made right here in Kentucky at Brown Forman cooperage. Now what's special about this barrel is it's customized specifically for slain. So all of the research and development of brown Forman have been able to do on different levels of toasting and charring is fed into this barrel. So it's like a, it's a heavy toast, medium char. And that toast is really what makes the difference because it helps to draw out the van islands that then become vanilla. 43:00 So using virgin oak for an Irish Whiskey blenders is pretty unusual as what the SEC is most probably aren't united that not they're not. But what is unique is this barrel was made specifically for us for slain and it does deliver that really lovely kind of aromatic vanilla hit nose. Now you will mention that banana Foster and that kind of moves really neatly into the second barrel. So our second barrel we call seasoned seasoned, as you probably know, that's just a term that means someone was living in that barrel before. 43:33 And it's an old veteran. Yeah, exactly. 43:37 In this case. 43:40 So it is American whiskey. Most American whiskey barrels, a lot of them end up in Ireland. However, the challenge with that is if you're an Irish distillery, you're typically going to be buying a barrels maybe through a dealer say say Calvin cooperage, for example, or you might have a relationship with another distillery like order stellar say, Heaven, Hell or an artist. 44:00 Brown Forman, but the challenges that they actually make lots of different whiskies and the rain, really any track or trace. So when those barrels arrive in Ireland, you don't know exactly it's labeled as murder and completely so the way the industry deals with it is by blending it all together. However, because of our relationship with brown Forman, we're able to focus in on particular barrels. So we're primarily using as our season we're primarily using a Tennessee whiskey barrel or a jack daniels barrel. And that delivers very particular flavor notes. 44:32 Also, those barrels have to be shipped wet because otherwise they're going to dry out and live on their island Island. So there's a little bit of liquid in there and we are not throwing that away. We're just pouring our whiskey in on top. So the net result is you're picking up some of those lovely flavors. So ripe banana is absolutely coming from that barrel. And then Irish whiskeys tend to be blends tend to be nice and sweet. But that sweetness can go from like a nice, light clear honey to a much heavier dark branch. 45:00 Nothing that comes out of slain is light or fluffy. We're in the business of kind of rich and complex. So I wanted us to get to a heavier sugar note and that's where that second barrel the season barrel really comes in. So you actually you're right on the money with a banana sauce. Yeah, I mean, yeah, the torch came in. I mean, it's, it's basically like we're two bourbon casks already. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, for us. It's an easy transition. Yeah. And I think that that's a good point. You know, some people have described this as an as an Irish whiskey, a good Irish Whiskey for bourbon drinkers. Because I think there are some familiar familiarities and similarities there, for sure that American influences is definitely there. Do they hook you up on the yeast do here or do you have to use your own power there? So at the moment, we're just using standard distillers used to have our distillery however, brown Forman are one of the few companies that do cultivate their own yeast strains. So I think that's maybe something to look out for the future for sure, because I always get like brown sugar notes out of the old forester yeast. Yeah. 46:00 Whatever but yeah anywho but I'll quit talking let you know 46:05 why we're drinking whiskey. This is good. So I think if we had just finished with those two barrels, we would have ended up with an Irish Whiskey that probably just tasted a little too like an American whiskey. So we needed we needed something to kind of balance that influence. Now. The person who got me drinking Irish Whiskey was was my grandpa way back in the day probably before he should have but that's a whole nother story. A common theme. 46:32 Yeah, but he was a lovely man, but he loved his Irish whiskies that had a Sherry cask influence. Now quite a lot of Irish Whiskey does have a Sherry cask influence. And that really stems from our history where before American whiskey took off, and all of those lovely barrels became available, we would have used what was coming into the country, which was wine, port and Sherry. And so out of those ones, the Sherry ones were the ones that really captured my imagination. 47:00 In the early days of drinking whiskey, and that's kind of stayed as a theme. So, at the time brown Forman didn't know I guess too much about the Sherry side of things. They have their scotch brands now. So that's that's changed but at the time, I had to convince them the importance of what a Sherry barrel could do. So we actually we went out to her wrath in Spain, and we taste a lot of sherry there was a lot of fun amazing food out there. But what's been yeah are fantastic. But what a Sherry barrel does for for Irish Whiskey as it It adds this fantastic body and depth and lots of color. So we're talking about an Allah Rosso Sherry cask. It's been seasoned with Allah Rosso for a full two years before we even look at it. It's then shipped wet, over to slain and again we pour our whiskey in on top, and very quickly, it starts to take on lots of lovely color and these characteristics so 48:00 So going back on the nose, behind your banana Foster and the vanilla and those lovely sugar notes you may pick up a little bit of a almost like a raisin or a kind of date note maybe even a little bit of fig so you're kind of getting into dried fruit territory and that's the primary influence that Sherry cask and also get like a graham cracker kind of yeah smell on it. That's probably from the barley that I'll dig out what a graham cracker was until, like two states but I get you Yeah, I'm the I'm the I'm sorry I don't know commentary. 48:36 No, I I totally get you but on the pilot. 48:40 So I find it's as easy as easy to gravitate towards Yeah, so IRA dangerous, delicious. Good. dangerously delicious. Oh, yeah. That Yeah, so welcome. If you're if it's smooth, right and Irish is generally has that lovely smoothness but it is full body on the palate. 49:00 Like I said, it's got a lot of depth at the end like Nevada's smooth products, they kind of the finished falls flat, whereas this one's still kind of building a little bit on Yeah, I guess it's, it's a nice linger. I think where the Sherry cast comes in is there's this lovely little brain or kind of baking spice note right at the end. 49:19 And it kind of it's not, it's not Bice by any means, but it's a nice little kind of spice at the end. And that's really coming from that Sherry cask. And it's kind of like, nutty or creamy, like peanut buttery. Yeah, at the end. I don't know. I'm pulling all the stops today. 49:36 But so this is I was looking at the bottle. So this is 40%. So 80 proof, correct. kind of talk about the reason of going to 80 and not 9095 whatever it is, I don't really know honestly because us we don't know the Irish Whiskey industry that well so I don't know if like if that's a common thing. Generally most Irish Whiskey blends will be at proof. That's fairly standard for 50:00 For a blend, if you start getting into your, into your single malt or certainly a single pot stills, you know, that can get a bit of variation, sometimes a little bit higher. We settled at 80 proof, which again, is fairly standard because we just felt it worked really well at that level. Now, it is strong enough to hold up, you know, one of my favorite ways to drink and slaying would be on the rocks. So in that way, it behaves a little bit like a bourbon. 50:27 And it needs it. 50:30 I guess. Yeah, I mean, nothing wrong with it neat. And you have this with a banana pudding or something like that. It's fantastic. But put it on the rocks and it holds up, it doesn't wash out. And that was really important when we put this together. So it is designed to be a whiskey that's good on its own, but it's not going to get lost in a cocktail or get washed out when you throw some ice at it. What's the typical proof when you're dumping these before you cut it? So typically, well we put it into the barrel at about 62 and a half 51:00 alcohol. So that's what 120 and doing my mask in my head, yeah, I'm terrible around 120 proof we use Excel a little a little lighter. 51:08 And depending on what style of whiskey you're making, so our malt would be, we'd be taking off a pretty high proof around 160 or so. And then we're going to reduce that down. The grain whiskey element is very high. I mean, grain whiskey is not far off of what you'd be doing grain usual. So you're talking about 96 97% alcohol. So it's, it's very strong. So you got to reduce that down again to around 62 and a half percent alcohol before you put it in the barrel. And then what's the what's the kind of aging that you're looking to do? Or what's in this bottle today? I mean, we, we already learned that it's gotta be, what, three years and three years at a day or three years and three days, two years, three years and three years in a day, so? Yeah. 51:54 So in terms of maturation, the key to this product is is that triple cast for extra characters. 52:00 So it started out living in an American barrel for a good number of years. So the malt and the grain, they were all the stock we bought was different ages, some of it was up to 10 years old. And then we're adding extra time on that with a triple cast, which is roughly two years. So that gives you an idea of how old some of the whiskey isn't that blend. And then we'll be phasing in our own juice, you know, hasn't when it's ready, but it all goes through the same barreling program. And that's, that's how we get the consistent try to keep it consistent throughout the time. Yeah, stuff like that, too. Yeah. talks about the packaging who's Yeah, a little different. No, yeah. It's a bit different. And then you've got it got this. Is this the crest that we're talking about that? Yeah. So you asked why the why was in the cutting of name and it kind of it's tied to this, this sort of hay fork that is at the center of the crest. And that's so that goes back to my family's time in the 1100s. At that stage, we're in Scotland, we landed in Ireland and 1605. But there was a rebel Prince Malcolm, who was on the run from 53:00 Macbeth of the Shakespearean origin of Macbeth wasn't a particularly nice dude. So 53:06 Malcolm was on the run, he came to Cunningham's farm and cutting could have surrendered the fugitive or he could stand up for what he believed in which was a rebellion. He hid Malcolm Malcolm survived as a result, defeat him at birth and became king Malcolm the second and he went back and rewarded Cunningham with a bit of land and an arboreal to celebrate the occasion and he chose the hay fork that he had used to hide Malcolm in the hay and hay loft. It's a it's a symbol of rebellion, perseverance, determination, and that's what it took to get the slain whiskey project done and that's why we put it on the bottle. And then it is a black glass bottle so it's a little different. black and red have been our family colors for centuries. And I guess it was a little bit more rock and roll. So we just felt it. It set the right tone for for the whiskey 53:58 and you 54:00 We have a lot of fun putting that together. And actually, when we did the excavations around the distillery because it's all on the national list of protected structures, we found some really, really old bottles. None intact. Unfortunately, they were black glass. So that kind of confirmed that sticking with black made sense. Nice, as I say, so I'm a I'm a product of the 80s. I don't know if you were big into like, 80s movie culture, but I saw that and I was like, it's a, it's the flux capacitor. It's right there on the bottle. Nice. Okay, I hadn't seen that. But there you go. There you go. Actually, I think it might be upside down. But it's a dolly. But you know, really the whiskies really good. I think, you know, this is our first really good introduction, at least for the podcast due to Irish whiskey and knowing more about it, and knowing more about the history and sort of, really where it's stemming from as well. You know, if you were to like, give our listeners like a good reason, like, you know, they're bourbon drinkers right there. They're real bourbon drinkers or bourbon nerds. Like what's what's the 55:00 Selling pitch that you would give to a bourbon drinker to say, go out and try this. I think if you enjoy bourbon you're going to enjoy trying slain because Bourbons generally are very much flavor forward. Okay? And in the Irish category, that's what slain is all about, you know, and people are moving between brands and between categories a bit more. If you want to step outside of bourbon and get something that has an element of familiarity, but it's going to give you something a little bit different and slains a good a good call. So those heavy brown sugar notes, the hits of vanilla, those are going to be familiar, but you add in that heavy dried fruit notes, little bit of spice, it's coming from the Sherry. That's gonna be a nice, I guess, step away without having to jump too far. 55:46 Yeah, it's one of the richer kind of Irish whiskeys I've ever had. I've had powers and I've had dabbled into like Red Berets and you know stuff, but it's definitely got more than more depth than I remember of other Irish Whiskey products. So very impressed. 56:00 Well done. Thank you very much Well, we had a lot of fun not meant to get knocked out Shakespeare got to now you've knocked out a whiskey brand so we're really Wait How can you even top this? Good question I think by focusing on our on our ultra premiums further down the road so give me a decade I'll have more to talk about. Yeah. 56:21 So with the ultra premium category because we don't really know the Scott or sorry, the the Irish kind of ultra premium category, like what's that look like in in your vision? What would that entail as well? So I think in 20 years time, we're gonna be all talking about the Irish answer to scotch single malt which is pot still. So single pot still whiskies which bring that on malted barley into the mash bill, create this really lovely, rich, complex, quite oily, characterful whiskey and we are making that at slain. So we just made our first batches not too long ago, the new makers fantastic. So when that hits the word, it's going to lead some great whiskey 57:00 So it's a fairly small category within Irish at the moment, but I think it's going to be where the real kind of high end higher end of the market growth is going to happen over the next 20 years. So watch this space. Stay tuned. So what's what's the price point for a product like this? For slain yellow for the current bland depending on which market you're in for a 750? You're talking in and around 30 bucks a bottle? Oh, wow. Yeah. So yeah, so we when we won the gold medal at the Irish whisky awards, one of the really nice positive feedbacks was that we kind of over delivered on flavor for that price point because we were competing with more expensive whiskies. So that only up for a case. Yeah. 57:43 That was always the aim. We wanted to make something that was smooth, approachable, full flavored, and affordable. Yeah, we hit all three. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, like for us, I think this was a valuable lesson and getting schooled and Irish whiskey. And, you know, Alex, thank you so much for coming on the show today because 58:00 It was it was a pleasure to not only meet you and hear your story, you know Yeah, I know You came all the way from Ireland for us and so we really appreciate that you know, it's a it's a badge of honor for us to have you on the show. Thank you. Well listen, I always love drinking Irish whiskey in the heart of bourbon country 58:16 like this Yeah. Trading traders. Traders for an hour. Yeah, sorry Chris Morris. 58:23 Now appreciate Alex very cool story and ton of history of your family. That's incredible. What I'd love to come over there and party party for a week Come on. We should do burn get with Fred and do burn beyond like we can do bourbon workshops are Irish Whiskey workshops over there, you know? Yeah. and beyond. Yeah, slightly beyond Irish Whiskey pursuit, watch. Go watch that trademark. Be gone tomorrow. 58:47 Another question before we go or another opportunity for you to tell our audience how they can learn more about slain. If you're any kind of social media or slain. How can they find out more about that? Yeah, sure. So 59:00 The website slain Irish whiskey.com that's a good place to start. Obviously if you are lucky enough to get to Ireland come and see the distillery because that really brings it to life. 59:11 You can find this on Instagram, slain Irish Whiskey as well. My own Instagram presence is Alex Cunningham with the Y co n y n th. Yeah, listen to the front. Yeah, remember how to spell you can find me on there. And yeah, that's a good good place to learn. I'd say you got a good man of information from the websites best place to start. What if we want to go glamping where do we go? So that is rock farm slain.ie for all and my wife loves glamping so there you go. Listen, you've got more and more reasons. My guests will be seeing you pretty soon I get there is home renovation first. there that's awesome. So again, Alex, thank you so much for coming on the show today and you know make sure you follow explain as well as him on all those social media channels. You can follow us bourbon pursuit, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and if you'd like 1:00:00 Like what you hear also make sure that you take a minute and just check out our Patreon page. It's a way that we help build and grow and fund the podcast day after day. Yep, I think you nailed it. So we'll see you next time. Cheers. Cheers. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Let's face it - right now we're facing some unprecedented circumstances. Schools are shutting down, gatherings are cancelled - there's no question that this will have a real economic impact for many of us. So what should we do? How will this impact architects and the architecture industry? With all that's going on, it's far too easy to slip into worry, anxiety and fear. I'm struggling with this myself. We moved into a new house last year and with six kids, a business and team members, I have some decent monthly expenses. It's too easy to worry about what might happen - this does no good at all. When we're fearful, that's when we retreat and stop taking positive actions. What I'd remind you today is that it isn't the circumstances or the challenges that define us - it's how we respond to these challenges. Let me repeat that: it isn't the circumstances or the challenges that define us - it's how we respond to these challenges. No one individual has control over what is happening right now. The only thing within our control is how we respond. Are you with me? So, how do we respond? How do we move ahead with the best foot forward? How do we make sure that the best version of "US" continues to show up every day? Today I want to give you 5 strategies for moving ahead with power and faith. Realize that you're ok. Avoid the virus of the mind. Reframe this opportunity. Analyze your routine. Get cash / financing heavy. You got this. You've been through challenges before and you'll make it through this one stronger than ever before. A last tip is to look at alternate ways of packaging your services as an architect. There are some very cool things you can do to deal with times like this and still stay profitable and moving ahead. This Friday, March 20th, Rion Willard and I are hosting a webinar around COVID-19, what it means for architects, and how to thrive (not just survive) in a possible down market. I'm not saying a down market will happen - and I hope it doesn't but we all know these cycles come and go - the best time to get prepared is yesterday and the second best time to be prepared is today! To register for the upcoming free training, go to http://www.businessofarchitecture.com/future.   ► Subscribe to my YouTube Channel for updates: https://www.youtube.com/c/BusinessofArchitecture ******* For more free tools and resources for running a profitable, impactful and fulfilling practice, connect with me on: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/businessofarchitecture Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/enoch.sears/ Website: https://www.businessofarchitecture.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/BusinessofArch Podcast: http://www.businessofarchitecture.com/podcast/ iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/business-architecture-podcast/id588987926 Android Podcast Feed: http://feeds.feedburner.com/BusinessofArchitecture-podcast ******* Access the FREE Architecture Firm Profit Map video here: http://freearchitectgift.com Download the FREE Architecture Firm Marketing Process Flowchart video here: http://freearchitectgift.com Come to my next live, in-person event: https://www.businessofarchitecture.com/live Carpe Diem!

Subjects Covered For Part 2Tattoos and DisabilityActivism and DisabilityNew Mother WorldLife Hacks for Disabled MomsDisability Temper TantrumsLabor and Delivery Disability and RacePregnancy and DisabilityInfant and Maternal Mortality Rates for Black WomenMedical Racism and Ableism in the Medical SystemDisability and CustodyBirth StoryDisabled MerchWhen you get to be the test for a surgeon’s sewing skillsDisabled When Your Baby is in NICU Hospitals Need to Prepare for Disabled MothersDoctors Appointments and WheelchairsNightlife and the Danger to Dignity When Clubs and Bars Are Not AccessibleHR620 Law The ADA is not what you think it isMEET WITH YOUR REPRESENTATIVES!!!!!Ignorance is a Curable ConditionThe Straw Ban Please Talk To Disabled People Before Making am OpinionPlease get me a Super Crip ShirtI Was Mixed up and Wrong About Kenya. I am sorry please take a look at Kenya’s Disability LegislationCarrying Us In Our Wheelchairs Does NOT Count As AccessIf It Is One the Ground It is On Our Hands. Wheel LifeTraffic and Driving in the City is a Good Prep forWebsite/Blog, Twitter, & Instagram Handlewww.fourwheelworkout.com, @4wheelworkoutName *Tiara Simmons-MerciusDisorder InfoWhat is your disorder? *I have a disability. Not a disorder. I am a double below-knee amputee. Three fingers on my right hand are partially amputated. I have invisible disabilities as well: Neuropathy and paraplegiaAt what age did your disorder become a daily issue? *1Who were you before your illness became debilitating? *I've always been disabled so, I guess the person I am now is who I've always been, or was growing into.What would you do if you were not dealing with your invisible illness? *Much of the same things as I do now: Advocacy, activism. Working or trying to work. My invisible disabilities only affect me slightly more than my visible.What would you like people to know about your daily life? *It is not a life to be pitied. Yes, I have barriers, but my disabilities are not the barriers, even though they can be draining. Lack of access is; ableism is. What would make living and moving in the world easier for you? *More accessibility. Less pity. More opportunities for involvement.Do you have any life hacks? *Not really. I use anything I can find to help me reach items. I use my wheelchair footplates to help me transport items.What kind of support do you get from family or friends? *My husband is a huge help. He gives me a lot of support both physical and emotional.Have you ever had someone not believe you have an invisible illness because of your appearance and if so are there any examples that stand out? *Sometimes. But I think what makes it more believable is the fact that I have visible disabilities, so it's not a stretch that I'd have more (to those people)How has your chronic illness affected your relationships? *I'm not as social as I used to be. So people do not call me or invite me out as much.Is there anything you are afraid to tell people in your life? *I'm generally pretty open. It's not so much WHAT I'd tell them, it's the HOW. I'm also straightforward and tend to just say what needs to be said.Does the fact that your disease is invisible change how healthcare professionals treat you? *My HCPs put in my records that I'm a chronic pain patient, but they are just paying me lip service I think.What is your best coping mechanism? *Sleep. Sleep and music.What are you the most concerned about and the most hopeful for in the future? *Concerned about being a disabled parent. But also, that's what makes me hopeful. My future career as a lawyer also fits into both categories.Is there anything you *don't* want to talk about? Is there a subject we should avoid during the interview? *Not sure. I will politely let you know during the interview.Is there anything you want to make sure we talk about during the interview? Like an organization you want to promote or something specific that you deal with.I want to be able to speak about medical racism. Being a Black disabled woman navigating healthcare and society.What is the hardest and/or best lesson your condition has taught you?Best lesson: I don't have to do everything.What is the best purchase under $100 that helped your lifeCrockpot. Go figure.RecommendationsCoSleeperSwaddle Me See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Obviously the obvious should be addressed. If common sense were common life wouldn't be such a mess. What I'd suggest might be best, inner then outer, more over than under... you know Mike Jack shit

I breathe. I cry. I smile. I dream…just like you. Just like you I have goals that I work towards everyday. They may be centered around disability rights/justice, health, relationships, or my career. But I have them. And just like you I hit bumps in the road. Sometimes I slam full-force into the biggest obstacles around me.— Tiara Simmons-MerciusOn a daily basis I confront ableism, racism, sexism, well…most of the -isms. The thing is, it’s not just the obstacle around you, but how you tackle it. Do you sit in front of it with your face in your hands because there’s nothing you can do? Or do you observe it and turn it around in your mind as your figure out a way around it? I fall in both categories. Sometimes, some obstacles and stumbling blocks just seem too big to handle but, there’s got to be a way, a solution.I choose activism.— Tiara Simmons-MerciusI am here to be me. Not your inspiration.— Tiara Simmons-MerciusIf you are confused about what “inspiration porn is please visit this page on Tiara’s website www.fourwheelworkout.comCreator of #disabledwomanism & #WithoutTheADAWebsite/Blog, Twitter, & Instagram Handlewww.fourwheelworkout.com, @4wheelworkoutName *Tiara Simmons-Mercius Subjects Covered in Part 1New Motherhood and WheelchairsMedical racismAccess and job and education Disabled Jesus CampSocial Media and DisabilityParenting a Disabled ChildDisability TwitterEnvironmentalism and Disability Straw BansRemoving Shame from Ignorance (We can all learn more)Getting Older and DisabilityTwitter to Fight or Not to FightRepresentation in the Legal SystemRace and DisabilityCollege Experience and DisabilityPLEASE ProgramGeneral and Special Education in Public SchoolsHow to Advocate for Yourself and OthersTattoos and Reclaiming Your Disabled BodyDisorder InfoWhat is your disorder? *I have a disability. Not disorder. I am a double below-knee amputee. Three fingers on my right hand are partially amputated. I have invisible disabilities as well: Neuropathy and paraplegiaAt what age did your disorder become a daily issue? *1Who were you before your illness became debilitating? *I've always been disabled so, I guess the person I am now is who I've always been, or was growing into.What would you do if you were not dealing with your invisible illness? *Much of the same things as I do now: Advocacy, activism. Working or trying to work. My invisible disabilities only affect me slightly more than my visible.What would you like people to know about your daily life? *It is not a life to be pitied. Yes, I have barriers, but my disabilities are not the barriers, even though they can be draining. Lack of access is; ableism is. What would make living and moving in the world easier for you? *More accessibility. Less pity. More opportunities for involvement.Do you have any life hacks? *Not really. I use anything I can find to help me reach items. I use my wheelchair footplates to help me transport items.What kind of support do you get from family or friends? *My husband is a huge help. He gives me a lot of support both physical and emotional.Have you ever had someone not believe you have an invisible illness because of your appearance and if so are there any examples that stand out? *Sometimes. But I think what makes it more believable is the fact that I have visible disabilities, so it's not a stretch that I'd have more (to those people)How has your chronic illness affected your relationships? *I'm not as social as I used to be. So people do not call me or invite me out as much.Is there anything you are afraid to tell people in your life? *I'm generally pretty open. It's not so much WHAT I'd tell them, it's the HOW. I'm also straightforward and tend to just say what needs to be said.Does the fact that your disease is invisible change how healthcare professionals treat you? *My HCPs put in my records that I'm a chronic pain patient, but they are just paying me lip service I think.What is your best coping mechanism? *Sleep. Sleep and music.What are you the most concerned about and the most hopeful for in the future? *Concerned about being a disabled parent. But also, that's what makes me hopeful. My future career as a lawyer also fit into both categories.Is there anything you *don't* want to talk about? Is there a subject we should avoid during the interview? *Not sure. I will politely let you know during the interview.Is there anything you want to make sure we talk about during the interview? Like an organization you want to promote or something specific that you deal with.I want to be able to speak about medical racism. Being a Black disabled woman navigating healthcare and society.What is the hardest and/or best lesson your condition has taught you?Best lesson: I don't have to do everything.What is the best purchase under $100 that helped your lifeCrockpot. Go figure. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Several months ago I was watching a YouTube clip of a Twitch stream of Ninja playing Fortnite. (If that's not a 2019 statement, nothing is!) For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, there is a very popular video game out right now called Fortnite. And also right now there is this whole trend of gamers streaming so others can watch them play. Well, I was watching a clip of one of these streamers, Ninja, who, at the time, had 14 million followers. It's estimated that in 2018 Ninja made $10 million from his gaming-related activities. So he's kind of a big deal. What was so fascinating to me was that, as he was playing, he would interact with his followers. They'd make a donation, ask a question, and he'd answer it as he ran around the game. I quickly realized that many of the people asking questions were middle school students. And most of their questions had to do with relationships. "Ninja, what do I do about this girl I like?" "Ninja, this guy stole my girlfriend and I'm just so mad I want to punch him." And then Ninja would give his advice. One time, literally with no sense of irony, he said, "you've got to deal with your emotions but you can't ever resort to violence" As I watched, a dawning realization came over me: these guys were listening to him. These 14 million followers were hanging on every word. Now, nothing he was saying was particularly bad or wrong, necessarily. Probably the worst thing he was doing was convincing a generation of young people that they had a future in professional gaming. But when all was said and done I realized that this 28 year old man was shaping the worldview of middle school students and framing their understanding of morality because he was good at video games. Ninja is an influencer. One of countless influences which are shaping our lives. And I know some of you scoff at that and think, "I'd never let someone like that influence my life." Well, you may think that. But I would argue that in this technological age every one of us is under more influence than we could ever possibly know. SERIES RECAP This is the fourth week of our series, "The Good Life: Technology." Looking at five biblical principles for a healthy life in the digital age. A quick recap to bring you up to speed: In the first week we emphasized the fact that our job is not to abandon technology, but to transform it. To bring light into the darkness in the name of Jesus. We're not of the world, but we are sent into it. In other words, Principle 1: You are on a mission. In week 2, we talked about how important it is to remember where your identity comes from in a social-media driven world. Principle 2: Your identity is in Christ, not in likes. Last week, I introduced the idea of "sabbath" - taking sacred time to stop from the addictive cycles of our technology and remember that we are free. The principle there was: Principle 3: Sabbath breaks chains. As a part of that, we introduced the "No Screen Saturday Challenge." One whole day "resting" from our devices to see what we would learn. Next week we're going to talk about re-connecting with real life people. Principle 5: Face-to-face is best. As a reminder, we're going to a Parent's Technology Forum on December 3 at our Fishers campus. You can find info (and a bunch of other resources) at gracechuch.us/thegoodlife So there's more good stuff to come. But today we're going to talk about influence. INFLUENCE The truth is, every one of us is being constantly affected by a never-ending stream of influence. Some of it is obvious: o Pundits on news channels spreading their political theories o Social media influencers talking about favorite brands o Marketing and Advertisements All of that is coming at us every day, but so is a lot of much more subtle influence. o The moral code hinted at by our favorite music lyrics o The philosophical underpinnings of the YouTubers we follow o The worldview of our favorite podcast hosts These things trickle into our subconscious and shape our view of the world. In this technological age, who we are and how we live is shaped by this barrage of influences. Frankly, it's unavoidable. Unless you live in a remote, off-grid cabin with no connection to the outside world, this is a part of your life. So let me start with this: The problem is not that we are being influenced. The problem is that far too few of us think about who or what we are letting influence us. We're just along for the ride. And this is a problem because we are called to be distinct from the darkness around us. If we are meant to be light-bringers in this world, I believe we need to be far more intentional about what we are choosing to let influence our worldview. I wonder if the Bible has anything to say about that? Let's find out. Colossians is a letter written by Paul to the church in the smallish city of Colossae in Anatolia (what is today western Turkey). He's writing because Christians in Colossae were under the influence of some pretty weird religious ideas. What I'd call syncretistic mysticism. Basically they were taking elements of Judaism, sprinkling in some Jesus, but then also worshipping elemental spirits and adopting these extreme rules and customs which had nothing to do with following Jesus and brought division into the church. Paul wants to help them break free from these corrupting influences. Colossians 3:1-11 Since you have been raised to new life with Christ, set your sights on the realities of heaven, where Christ sits in the place of honor at God's right hand. Think about the things of heaven, not the things of earth. For you died to this life, and your real life is hidden with Christ in God. And when Christ, who is your life, is revealed to the whole world, you will share in all his glory. So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Don't be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Because of these sins, the anger of God is coming. You used to do these things when your life was still part of this world. But now is the time to get rid of anger, rage, malicious behavior, slander, and dirty language. Don't lie to each other, for you have stripped off your old sinful nature and all its wicked deeds. Put on your new nature, and be renewed as you learn to know your Creator and become like him. In this new life, it doesn't matter if you are a Jew or a Gentile, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbaric, uncivilized, slave, or free. Christ is all that matters, and he lives in all of us. In his letters, Paul loves contrasting two realities. Old and new. Light and dark. Life and death. In verse 2, he contrasts the "things of heaven" (literally, "things above") and "things of earth." Now, I want to make something clear. Heaven, in Paul's mind, was not just some ethereal place full of harps and angels. Heaven is the place where God dwells - where his rule and reign is total: love, peace, joy, life, harmony, wholeness... And in Paul's mind, heaven is not some place we zip off to when we die. Heaven is coming to transform the earth - the kingdom of God is coming. It's already begun through Jesus. The New Creation is on its way. That's what we're meant to think about. Things of heaven. Why? Verse 3. Because "you died to this [earthly] life, and your real life is hidden with Christ in God." Your real life is a part of heaven, a part of the kingdom. Not just as a future hope, but as a present reality. The moment you give your life to Christ you become a citizen of heaven. You are now a participant in the coming of the New Creation, and as Paul says elsewhere, God is now shaping you to be Romans 8:29 "conformed to the image of his Son" Which means that when you follow Jesus, your life is supposed to look more and more like his. Under Christ's influence, you are meant to become a light-bringer in this world. Which is why Paul has such strong words for those who say they follow Jesus but spend their time thinking about - setting their sights on & being influenced by - the things of earth. And what are those things? Well, Paul essentially lumps them into two big categories. Sins of Desire and Sins of Disunity. In verse 5, he describes sins of desire, which corrupt our hearts: Sins of Desire o Sexual immorality o Impurity o Lust o Evil Desires o Greed In verse 8, he describes sins of disunity, which corrupt the church: Sins of Disunity o Anger o Rage o Malicious behavior o Slander o Dirty language o Lying These are the kinds of things which keep a community from thriving. But here's what I don't want you to miss. These aren't just things which break some list of God rules. They are actions and thoughts which directly undermine the New Creation. Think about it. In the New Creation - in heaven - in God's kingdom - every human has dignity and value. What does lust do? It turns humans into objects. It strips away their dignity. In the New Creation there is no need because everyone gives of themselves with love and generosity. There is abundance. But greed undermines all of that. Greed says "this is mine and I want more." In the New Creation peace and harmony are universal. But anger, rage, and slander rip apart communities. So when Paul says we must "think about the things of heaven, not the things of earth," this isn't just a trite, moralistic suggestion to try and ponder the afterlife more often. This is a desperate reminder that if we are in Christ we are a part of the new creation - we are citizens of God's kingdom right now - and our lives should look like it! INTENTIONALITY Our world looks very different from ancient Colossae - fewer temple prostitutes and syncretistic angel cults for one thing. But we are constantly flooded by influences which are no less "earthly" than what the Colossians were experiencing. And thanks to technological advances, we have access to more of it than ever before. o Extreme, bigoted views now shared on a global platform. o Pornography at our fingertips. o Pride, greed, lust, violence, slander, and rage not just present, but elevated and celebrated in our culture. o Syncretistic worldviews which mix and muddle Christian faith with other stuff. o And on top of it all: countless ways to hide our darkness and pretend that nothing is wrong. Sins of desire, sins of disunity. And all of them drawing us away from the New Creation life we are meant to experience and resemble. That is the world we are allowing to just flow right on in and influence us day after day after day. So what do we do about it? Well, first I believe we have to understand, as Paul did: Principle 4: Garbage in, garbage out This was originally a computer science term. Essentially, you could have the best software program in the world, but if you feed it garbage inputs, it's going to spit out garbage results. We're really no different. When we flood our minds with the things of this earth, guess what will come out in the way you live? Things of this earth! Shocker! Garbage in, garbage out. Now look. I am not here to be moralistic and tell you what you should or shouldn't be watching. Or reading. Or listening to. But I am going to agree with Paul here and say that if you want to be healthy in this digital world, if you want your life to look like Jesus, then you'd better pay attention to what's influencing you! Look back at Colossians 3 one more time. Look at the words Paul uses here. o Set your sights on o Think about o Put on o Be renewed o Put to death o Get rid of o Strip off These are action words. They're not passive. These are things which require intentionality and purpose. They don't just happen. If we want to "think about the things of heaven," then we need to start by thinking about what we're thinking about! We so often let influences flood our minds without ever giving it a second thought. I'm asking you to stop and consider what is influencing you! Remember: Garbage in, garbage out. So how do you know if it's garbage? Well, here's one way you can do that: a tool you can use. You can chart your influences. We've got two axes. On the x axis, we've got things of earth on this side and things of heaven on this side. (Remember, heaven here does not mean naked angel babies. It means how much does this influence reflect the values of the kingdom of God?) On the y axis we've got "influential" up here and "insignificant" down here. How much does this influence shape you? What I'm encouraging you to do is to map your influences onto this chart. Go through your podcasts. The last 10 movies you've watched. Think through the Twitter accounts you follow most closely. And put them on here. For example. One of my favorite YouTube channels is the Bible Project. They have incredible videos which bring scripture to life for me and shape my worldview. It's influential. For me, they're here. On the other hand, I'm also subscribed to FailArmy, which is completely earthly, but also doesn't have much sway over me. It's insignificant. I don't have much of an urge to jump off of things because I watch it. If I were to map all of my YouTube subscriptions onto here, what would my chart look like? What would yours? When I watched the video of Ninja playing Fortnite and talking about relationships, that was probably down here for me. I'm not shaped by Twitch streamers. But if I was a middle school kid? Ninja might be up here because I'd worship the ground he walked on. Give it a try. If reading political rants on Facebook fills you with rage, you'd probably put that here. Not only because it makes you angry, but because it makes it more likely that you'll post angry things yourself. Garbage in, garbage out. What about dating apps you use? The angry pundits on your news channel. The HBO miniseries you love. Your music. Think about what you're thinking about. This is also valuable for the spiritual influences in your life. For example, having K-Love on in the background, or posting a Bible verse in your kitchen, or going to church once every couple months... Those may be things of heaven. But they don't really influence you that much. Compare that with being discipled by an older believer. Walking with them through life and having them mentor and teach you. That's a heavenly influence. So is studying Scripture in community and serving in the Care Center and going through Rooted and being at Church every week, rain or shine. Ok, so you get the idea. Everyone's chart is going to look different. Things influence us in different ways. So what should our chart look like? Should everything be clustered over here? Well yeah, if we were monks living in a vacuum. Space monks. The reality is we are living in a broken world. We are going to be influenced by stuff all over this chart. Now, if everything in your upper right box is empty, that's a problem. Or if every aspect of your faith in Jesus is just down here, that's no good. If this box is overflowing with influences, something needs to change. But I'm not calling us to legalism. I'm not saying "burn all your secular CDs." I'm calling us to movement. Reducing the amount of garbage we're consuming lowering the influence of unhealthy things and pursuing a life of transformation. Moving into, as the Bible calls it, sanctification - becoming more and more set apart. Becoming different. Christ-like. Even as we remain in this broken, technological world. As Paul says in verse 10, let's "be renewed as we learn to know our Creator and become like him." What does your chart look like? What do you want it to look like? Technology may be here to stay, but it doesn't have to tell us who we are.

Denis Muganza:            Oh, I remember going back home and people, I was in the plane and people are like, wait, are you that guy who wraps in the, you know, it was cool, like it's, if someone yelled my name across a airport in Brussels, which is weird but interesting, you know,Host:                            welcome to my Oneonta life, a podcast about everything Oneonta. I'm your host Jared Stanley. On this show we discovered the stories and experiences of the people who make SUNY Oneonta the place we like to call home. [inaudible]Host:                            music is a huge ingredient in the college experience just as much as pizza pulling all nighters, spring break. For some students, music plays a much larger role in their life. It's part of their personal identity and is the driver of who they want to be and where they want to go in life. Today I'm introducing you to Dennis Muganda, a musical artist from Kigali, Rwanda, and a 2017 graduate of SUNY Oneonta. I got to know Dennis during his time at Oneonta and learned about his life as an international student. His aspirations as a musician and what he was going to miss most about his college experience. Dennis's time at Oneonta started with his trip to campus, which was a bit longer than the typical Oneonta student when he boarded a plane from Rwanda heading across the globe to the United States.Denis Muganza:            It was my first time in the United States and the first place I Atlanta doors and JFK and you know, I went to New York city and it was the biggest city I'd ever been to and towns, a little overwhelmed. And then the next day I was in Oneonta, which was a huge contrast and I didn't know how people were going to, if people were meant to be nice to me or you know, if they're going to think of me as a foreigner and not to want to be friends with me, but it all turned out great.Host:                            Adjusting to life in college is a challenge for most freshmen students. And even more so as an international student, even though Dennis is from across the globe, he and many other Oneonta students have one thing in common, a love for music. Back in Rwanda, Dennis began his music career when he was 13 years old when he produced his first song by age 17. He was an avid performer and event organizer and formed his own music label, dark matter entertainment.Denis Muganza:            I just wanted to increase my chances of succeeding really. So I did everything that I could and like starting recording studio days and not the same as here cause I'm here. Oh, every other student has a recording gear, you know. Whereas there, um, not everybody is privileged enough to have a recording Mike or you know, any of the interface or even a laptop, you know. So I had that. Then me and my friends just tipped in like 10 bucks every, every month. Five of us that add up to 50 bucks. Believe it or not, they could actually rent a room this big, you know, you know, I ended up for a month, you know, so it was like, of course not in the best neighborhoods, but we'd still go and get every sound soundproof displays ourselves, camera and everything. And Hey man, the recording studio, I knew it was a lot of funHost:                            as a student. Dennis looked for ways to become involved in the campus music scene, but he found a lack of diversity in music styles amongst student musicians.Denis Muganza:            As much as I like all genres of music, everybody on campus seemed to have a similar style. They all had the guitar that they just pop out and start playing and singing a little bit like, um, some version of John Mayer, the most part at least that was the stereotypical on the Ontario musician, you know. So I was personally a little bit disappointed cause I, I didn't hesitate. I went to all the clubs, I went to the music industry club, I went to the songwriters club and that's all they saw. And they felt like a, not fit in, but they said this is New York even though it's Oneonta, New York is New York, which is where hip hop, hip hop came from. New York, you know, at least anyway, they will can tell you that New York, LA is probably where hip hop came from. So it has to be some rappers out here.Host:                            Fast forward three years and Dennis has a large list of accomplishments. He was cofounder of the Oneonta hip hop collective and had the opportunity to open for international artists. Big Sean during Oneonta's fall concert.Host:                            his biggest accomplishment is releasing his first album African and has been touring throughout New York state and Canada.Denis Muganza:            and it was fun, successful. Um, I remember at the time we only got maybe two dozen people at each show, but I've noticed since I went back to Montreal again, I got 50 more people than I got 10. That's the whole point of doing this store is trying to gain a larger following. I remember going back home and people, I was in the plane and it's, people are like, wait, are you that guy who wraps in the, you know, he was cool. Like it's someone yelled my name across a airport in Brussels, which is weird, but it's interesting, you know, so it's good to see that at least I'm having some sort of impact. Um, I'll say that I'm not where I wish I was. I wish that I was graduating and didn't have to worry about getting a job because my music was that popping. But unfortunately, you know, I'm not there yet, but I'm not discouraged. I think everything is a work in progress. It's a step by stepHost:                            graduation, a time to celebrate accomplishments and to reflect on his time spent here at Oneonta. What's the best way to do that by creating an Anthem to own [inaudible]Denis Muganza:            I love college. I love taking every weekend. I love chilling on the evening. I acknowledge that I'm here for a reason. All this knowledge I'm receiving, but this book that I've been reading saw wrong and I noticed now this thing in my dorm man. Then I'll be gone, gone from this place where I say I be long, but nowDenis Muganza:            it's cause of Oneonta. It's very homey and people when you get here sort of and belong and just have your own unique perspective and I felt the need, especially being slightly outside, um, average person who comes to Oneonta, I felt they needed to sort of tell my story and how I thought about it. And if you say a song, it's really from a senior's perspective, it's not from the whole freshmen. I'm so excited to be here type of thing. I tried to go for a nostalgic sound, so I was trying to make a song that people can listen to many years after. We know we all leave. So I hope I did that.Host:                            with a couple of weeks to graduation. Dennis is trying to figure out what the next step in his life will be. It's an issue all students have to deal with. But as an international student he has to figure out where his next destination will be. Just,Denis Muganza:            yeah, I got a letter from immigration that said, Hey, your student visa expires May 30th you got a two month grace period. So it's like I might end up in a job here. I might end up anywhere in the world. I might just go back home. What I'd like to do the most is actually stay here cause I feel like, especially in the music industry in New York, New York city in particular, there's so much potential and they feel like I have the drive and determination to make something big. But regardless, I feel like no matter where I end up, I'm still gonna make it in my own way. And especially cause the world is so, it's a different world nowadays. You know, it's so globalized. It doesn't really matter where you are.Host:                            with Snapchat and Instagram, students will stay connected long after graduation. The memories of college and the relationships made will last a lifetime. Any parting words for Oneonta?,Denis Muganza:            That's too much to put into like a sentence or two and this, there's a lot of emotions I felt here. You know, I've been, I've had some of the greatest times in my life. You'd like things I never thought were possible have happened here. Like, take me back to 2011 you know, there's no way I'd have thought that I'd opened for this people. And how many years? Five, six years ago. Oneonta has given us the opportunity to be anything we want to be. Yeah. Just keep it up, I guess, do it for the next generation.Host:                            So where is Dennis in 2019? He's back in Rwanda and he's performing under a new stage name Kanaka. To learn more about Dennis Muganza, visit his kanakarw.com. I'm Jared Stanley. See you next time. 

Ever think: "What I'd give to have a tummy tuck?" Most of us women who've had babies and suffered from abdominal tears, loose skin, severe stretch marks, or that "baby fat" that won't go away would kill for a tummy tuck. On this weeks episode, Alli shares her experience with undergoing a tummy tuck. She shares her reasoning for doing an extended tummy tuck, plus all the things to ask before finalizing your procedure. If you've ever been curious about tummy tucks, are currently shopping for one, or just love to listen to 3 girls talk about raw, real life girl talk topics, this episode won't disappoint! Don't forget to share our episode with your friends, linktr.ee/a3lifeinc, sharing is caring!

Welcome to Intuition: Your First Sense. On this podcast, we talk about learning and giving you the tools of how to live using your first sense, intuition. This one is a subject that everyone has to deal with in life, and that's grief. We have life experiences, we don't live forever, but you probably know that by now. And there are so many messages, so many layers within grief, that don't get talked about a lot, because it is a tough thing to deal with, it's a tough thing to understand. What I'd like to do is destigmatize the fact that if you're grieving, that there is something wrong with you. There's actually something beautiful about you, there's something amazing because you're feeling a deficit of something, and you are processing it. And by doing that, you are learning to love more. And if you avoid all of the pain, and frustration and all those other words that come along with the experience of grief, you can be shortchanging your own ability to love yourself and to love others. So let's talk about grief. There are so many different ways that grief can show up in our life, that I thought I'd cover a few of them and give you a little bit of insight into how you might learn to appreciate the process. We all experience grief differently. How your own process through grief depends on what you were taught as a child. Were you allowed to have emotions? Did somebody even explain what was going on to in order to have some frame of reference around the pain that you're you're feeling. And then once we talk about it and let it come out, it dissipates.  Have a little bit of patience with yourself. And with others. I realized in the grief process, that it's helpful to let other people know, you're not the Rock of Gibraltar, that you do have emotions. I think it is important in a grieving process is to be honest, to say that this is a human condition to experience. Aren't we blessed to be able to feel? I've used this expression, it's not the most glamorous one on the planet, but it's kind of like vomit, you’ve got to let it come up and out. You’ve got to let it come out of your system. Because if you push it down, it's going to have to come up. And that will only affect your connection with yourself and with others. And of course, maybe a therapist, find someone that can be helpful to you in your processing, and be a safe place for you to allow that grief to come out. Maybe it feels too big for you. And you don't think that you And you don't think that you can let it all go because you might not come out of it. You will. But maybe you need that safe space. Tears are salty for a reason. Grief does work in layers. This podcast was recorded at ‘Alison Larkin Presents’ Produced by Josh Reis Engineered by Galen Wade Podcast notes by Tracey Palmer PLEASE SUBSCRIBE to this podcast so you don’t miss future episodes, and it would be greatly appreciated if you could also leave a review! Visit Vicki’s web site www.VickiBaird.com to learn more about Vicki or to book an individual session Check out Vicki’s Social Media pages: https://www.facebook.com/CoachVickiBaird/ https://www.instagram.com/coachvickibaird/ https://twitter.com/coachvickibaird https://www.linkedin.com/in/vicki-baird-3850889/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGH5rJR_JSS9Nvt6JprbyDw Read Vicki’s first book: https://www.amazon.com/Everyone-Has-Accept-Accentuate-Appreciate/dp/1452548420/ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_1?keywords=vicki+baird&qid=1553782546&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmrnull --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/vicki-baird/message

ArchitectCEO Daily Update: today's parable is - Milk on the Back Wall. As my wife and I were driving home today from the gym at 6 am I realized that we're out of bananas at home for my daily smoothie. Oh no! Red light emergency! ;) So we dropped by our local grocery store to pick up bananas - and some milk. There I was - armed with my mission: get milk and bananas. Simple enough right? The bananas were easy to find. I asked an associate where I could find the milk. He pointed to the far back corner of the store. I confirmed, "The far back corner?" "Yep," he responded. I went there and found myself in the meat section. "Hmm ... I think I'll pick up some pork chops." Finally, after running back to the front of the store and asking another associate where to find the milk, I found that creamy white goodness in the middle of the back wall of the store. I got back to my car and told my waiting wife about my trouble finding the milk. She replied: "On the back wall right? That's where it usually is." She reminded me that grocery stores usually have the milk at the back so they have a better chance of you buying something else on your way to get the milk. Well it worked. The grocery store strategically designed my experience as a customer. What I'd have you consider today is this: where in your architecture are you lacking a carefully designed experience for your clients? Do you have a systematic process for reaching out to and engaging new clients? Do you know what you'll say on the first interaction? What will you do or say on the third or fourth interaction? Is this information captured somewhere so that other people can be trained on this process ... so you're not continually reinventing the wheel? If you realize you need a more carefully scripted process and don't have the time or know where to start, send me a private message. Perhaps I can help you.

Hey everybody, it's Ben. Thank you for coming to hack that funnel radio. This is going to be a really quick episode. I just want to give you something for free. All right! So, no strings attached, I literally just want to give you something 100% for free. So for the last four episodes, I've been putting together something that I think you were going to re really gonna like I put together a free course. So how cool is that? So we've been talking a lot about what funnel hacking is, why is it important and you know, all those different pieces. And I thought to myself, what if I gave you the keys to the hacking kingdom? Would you be okay with that? Okay. So this is what I do. All right? So I have put together a five videos, maybe a couple of bonus ones. That's literally how to hack step by step. Oh, what do you hack? Why do you hack it? How do you know if it's working? What are ways to hack? What if you're on a budget? Okay. Everything that you need in order to get moving forward and funnel hack correctly and appropriately. And so I put it all together for you. Now that's not all though. And as well as putting together at least at least five videos, maybe some bonus videos. All right. And so as long as I'm so excited, I'm stumbling over everything. Um, as long as well as putting those five videos together for you, I am also putting together, or you're also going to get a couple of special treats. So this podcast is going to have a lot of interviews on it. If you've been here for a while and you're just going back to the beginning in order to watch all these, you know that k I put a lot of in interviews together and after each interview I ask two specific questions and the answer to those questions are only given to those who sign up for the free course. So you sign up for the free course. I'm also going to give you those bonuses. All right, that sound okay? There's a whole bunch of other bonuses that I'm going to give you, but literally we're just going to keep this super, super quick so that way you guys can make the most of today. So what I want you to do is go to hack that funnel, radio.com if you're going to hack that funnel, radio.com you enter in your email, you're going to get the five day five day course, okay? It's going to come out to you piece by piece parts, a couple of bonus videos. Plus you're going to get the interviews after as I do them. So as I do them that we put into a membership area or something like or or page or something like that. Well, we'll get that out for you. So that will also be there for you so you'll have that area. How cool is that? Okay. Now there's one other thing I want to give you. If you have any questions at all, if you're like Ben, funnel hacking sounds great, but my industry isn't really hackable. Come on, have you got questions like that? Whatever your question is that that's your question. Shoot, I want to be able to hear it. So what I've done is if you go to hack that funnel, radio.com you scroll all the way to the bottom, I put a little piece of code there and you literally click on it and you speak. You asked your question to me, I will put your voice on the podcast and we will hear your question and my answer. Does that sound good? Like a whole episode around, does that sound good to you? So if you have any question whatsoever, go down there, speak it to me, let me know what it is. We'll get it working out for you. Or if you just want free stuff, go to hack dot funnel radio.com and you'll be all taken care of. Guys, it's been fun putting together for you. We'll keep doing podcasts obviously, and I hope you enjoy, but go to hack that funnel, radio.com to get your free course with all the bonuses right now. Sweet, awesome sauce. I hope you found something in this episode that makes your mind explode. Now, would you like to take to the next level? What I'd like to give you are the "keys to the funnel hacking kingdom". What I want to give you is my FunnelHacker's MasterPack, five day training for Free! All you have to do is go to www.hackthatfunnelradio.com, put in your email, submit and you'll get my Funnel Hacking Master Pack right now, 100% free. It will teach you what to hack, where to hack, how to hack and when to hack. All you have to do is go to and get it now!

If you’re banking your health status on the current clinical ranges being used, you might be heading down a dwindling spiral of health that will only lead to sickness. Maybe you don’t feel great but your doctor says you’re healthy? Maybe you’re just not sick enough to be diagnosed by the new clinical ranges? 005 - Clinical Ranges Hey guys. Dr. Kelly here. And today we're going to be talking about those Clinical Reference ranges. Does the range actually really matter stay tuned? Hi, it's dr. Kelly Shockley with Are You Really Healthy Radio where we exposed the real truths in the realm of health and Empower you with insight and knowledge. So you can take back control of your house and live the highest quality of life for the rest of your life. Now, if you're new here, make sure you click that subscribe button, and all of the links referenced in this video will be found in the description box. Alright, let's get started. Okay. So first thing we have to clear up here is what in the world am I talking about when I say clinical ranges. So what I'm talking about is when you go in and you have blood work done with your physician when you get your lab report back. There are the clinical ranges of what's considered normal for whatever the value is of the marker that they're testing say it was blood glucose. There's a range that is considered normal or healthy that your marker should hopefully be following in if it's not falling within that range then it's considered out of range. And now there's a problem that the standard of care dictates of like how they're going to treat this and most of the time that's true prescription. So,  What I'd like to talk about is first of all, how are those ranges even? Determined to do you guys actually no? They are the average of the average population. So that makes sense, right? Okay. Well, where are you going with this Kelly? Right? Let me ask you a different question. So would you say that over the last 30 years or so that Americans have gotten healthier or more sick? I know some people think that we've gotten healthier, but a majority of us are in agreement that no by no means whatsoever have Americans gotten healthier. We've actually become more sick. There's more disease. There's more diabetes. There's more cancer. There's more death. I mean, we are considered one of the most advanced in the country in the world for medical Technologies. Like one of the most advanced medically known yet. We're range 38 for life it took to expectancy. So probably not doing something right in this country. Just a hunch also these clinical ranges. Who do you think has blood work done? Most frequently healthy people were sick people. Yeah, you're right sick people. So the point of this is that those reference ranges. I can't even talk. Those reference ranges are based off of the average of the average population or insert in here average of a sick population. So when your blood work comes back from your Doc and it's like who's sweet everything's within range. Does that really mean that you're healthy? I don't know that just means to me that you're the average of you know, sick. I don't want to be average of sick. Do you guys want to be average of sick? Do you know that there's actually a different way to look at this with still taking into consideration those reference ranges because those are the standards. Okay. So the pain a little bit clearer picture of how is this actually impacting you and is there something that you should be concerned about or have a different thought process when it goes into, you know, you getting blood work done. The first example is. Patient who comes to me who has already seen every doc Under the Sun and nobody can figure out what was wrong with them. They have so many symptoms. They feel like garbage their ear so fatigued they have memory issues. Like it's really hard to get out of bed every single day. They're dealing with depression as a result of all of this and their health is good. Just continuing to dwindle down this downward spiral. They are so frustrated because they have had all the tests done and nothing comes back abnormal. So are they really healthy? I mean are they making all of this up which some of my patients have definitely been told this like? Oh, we can't find anything wrong with you. So clearly it must be in your head which is completely demeaning and should never be said to anybody whatsoever. So for the person what is the response that I give them? My personal opinion and based off of what I know in the research. I have done in the clinical experience that I have gained. Maybe it's not because they're not sick. But because our ranges have been skewed to more of what's considered like sick ranges instead of an ideal healthy range. This person is sick. They're just not sick enough yet. In order for their doctor to be able to recognize that there is a problem with them. You know, the way that the standard of care works is that the docs hands are essentially tied until a marker comes back outside of range. So if a cholesterol marker comes back and it falls within the normal range for cholesterol that doctor there's nothing that they can do. But on the other side of that is the cholesterol marker comes back and it's way outside of range then they are. Actually, they have to recommend medication that is what the standard of care is and not to get into that conversation will say that for a different day. But the standard of care is what is dictating all of this and has with how health care has changed within the United States is not allowing doctors to do what they're really like the best at there's this criteria that they have to follow so for my patient who feels like garbage, And they're considered normal within the standard of care and based off of our Clinical Reference ranges that we follow nowadays. It's not that they're not sick. They're just not sick enough. We are not detecting pathology or disease processes were when things are abnormal in a body until they become much more advanced. This is the other problem with this you have to be sicker in order for a diagnosis and then treatment to be rendered anymore based off of those read. So what about the flip side of this? You know, I have plenty of people that come to me like oh, well, I had all my blood work done. Everything's normal. I feel great. Well, if you listen to one of my previous episodes, you know that how you feel is not necessarily the best indicator how healthy you are and sure you're backing It Up by what the gold standard is with blood work. But again, we're looking at ranges of a Sikh population. So congratulations, you feel fine and your ranges show that your markers show that you're with it and the sick range, but does that actually mean you're healthy? We don't know. So in my office, I don't just look at those clinical ranges. I actually look at and a narrower set of ranges that I they're based off of Science in old data that gives me a better overall predictive value of how are you going down a bad path before it actually gets worse. We're catching things before they become more advanced. So let me give you an example of this. The sed rate is a marker for measuring inflammation in the body. Inflammation within the last decade of medicine everybody has agreed as part of the root cause of all diseases. Like if you want to reduce your likelihood of ending up with some sort of a disease or cancer illness we want to keep inflammation levels really low in the body. That will help it from breaking down. So sed rate 30 years ago. The reference range was like 0280 K and I can't tell you if those are exactly correct, but just go with me obviously zero would be ideal. We don't want any inflammation in our body and if you went above 8 if you are outside of that small window, so say you got your blood work back. Thirty years ago. It was a 15 that would be considered screaming High inflammation that you've probably had for a long period of time and treat with it would need to be rendered. Well now because everybody Under the Sun in the u.s. Is walking around incredibly inflamed. The reference range has been skewed from 0 to 30 so not because that's normal. That's just what is common. So that's become the new Range. Okay. Does that kind of make sense now? So today if you got your blood work back and it was a 15. Based off of today's reference range you'd be considered totally fine. You'd be considered healthy when you're not you're not at all you're inflamed. You're really inflamed compared to the old data and the old criteria. But nowadays you're not even going to be flagged for anything. And I just told you inflammation is part of the demise of the body. It is part of the root cause where everything breaks down and it advances disease processes. So.  I don't know about you, but I still do not want to be average of sick. I want to be average of Ideal healthy. So we've got to be able to look at ranges differently and. Rudy of all of our ranges for all the blood markers that exist have been skewed towards this type of average of sick. There's only a few reference ranges that have improved and it still questionable on is it really improved for our overall benefit or is it improved for the benefit of the business of big Pharma and. Because guys yes, ultimately that is a business too. So that would be like your cholesterol ranges or how they keep decreasing blood pressure. Is it truly to benefit and get on top of something beforehand? And for the good of the patient, which is what we want all hope for or is it also helping to fill the big Pharma part Pockets? I don't know you tell me what you think. That's definitely another topic that we can discuss down the road. It will be coming up this today was actually very short, but I just really wanted to get that information out there on clinical ranges and how they're determined and how. Just because you're falling within range doesn't mean that everything is necessarily. Okay, and maybe we want to look at them from a different perspective, which is something that I do with all my patients if you're already an existing patient and you've recently had blood work done. We have a small fee for implementing it and running it through our system and crunching the numbers based off of our ranges to really see. Is there anything beneath the surface that's Brewing because the earlier you detect a problem the easier it is to resolve that problem. So instead of waiting for the whole forest fire to occur and try to take care of it. Then why don't we take care of it when you're first starting to see smoke? Okay, so that's kind of the thought process. I appreciate you guys for being here today was super short if you really are enjoying this content. Please leave feedback on iTunes. Feel free to share with any of your friends. This is what I am trying to do. I am going beyond the reach of my office. I want to help as many people as possible get well through natural means and really restore Health which ultimately helps you have a higher quality of life, which if we're going to be here you should be enjoying it and you know, you're working hard for a retirement. Why not be able to enjoy the retirement instead of what so many people end up doing is they work hard their whole entire lives they get to remember retirement. And now they're quality of health is down the tubes and they're spending everything that they worked so hard for to try to keep them alive and to try to make their health be better. If you invest in your health right now. It's like you're trying to invest for your retirement. It's going to be a much better Journey overall a much happier picture overall. So take your initiative and do that today. You actually have the capability and the power to change what trajectory you're on you're not destined to just thought I'm old. So this is just how it's going to be or everybody I know has this so it's considered normal. No, it's no symptom is ever normal and you've heard me say this before it's always a warning signal from your body and sometimes you feel fine, but really is waiting until a symptom. Shows up. Is that a good idea? Sometimes it's too late for people. I have a patient again who had no symptoms. Until about a month out where he started having difficulty swallowing. He finally went into the doctor at the two month Mark of this not improving and was diagnosed with stage four cancer that had metastasized not only from his esophagus but into his lymph nodes and his liver and they had a very Grim prognosis for him. You guys have heard these stories, you know these people and what I'm telling is you don't have to have that happen. So know your facts get your lab work reviewed by me or if you haven't had lab work done. You do not have to be a patient here. You do not have to live locally in Colorado. I have patients all over the US that I am doing this with it's very easy. And thank you technology as much as I also hate technology, but. We can have a conversation just like this where it's like you're in my office and we can crunch the numbers and go through what your results are actually showing before anything shows up down the road or if something already has been diagnosed get a different perspective a different opinion because if we can get you healthy enough, does it matter the name of the disease? And I think so. So reach out to me. If you'd like my help again, if you know somebody who could benefit from this information that I'm sharing, please share this radio show with them. I would love your help in spreading the word that is ultimately what my goal is to get this information out there because people just really don't know to know any better. So that is my goal. That is my mission. I just want to help as many people as I can. I appreciate you for jumping on that bandwagon with me. And if you've got feedback always feel free to give us a shout contact the office if you want my help personally I am here for you. So reach out and I look forward to hearing from you guys soon. Stay tuned for another episode and here's to being healthy. Hey gang. Thank you so much for staying tuned with another episode of are you really healthy? I had something I wanted to share. It's you something special for my listeners that I wanted to give you the advantage of taking me up on I have created this simple little test that can help us measure optimize and track your brain health. Now, who is this a good fit for? Well, I don't know. Are you suffering from anxiety stress? Brain fog maybe you're not sleeping very soundly through the night or maybe you sleep like a brick but you wake up feeling just exhausted despite how many hours of sleep you are getting or maybe you're the person who is just noticing your short-term memory isn't as good as what you'd like it to be you're having a hard time focusing and concentrating and being able to stick to task. If this sounds like anything you're dealing with that you would like to get rid of or get more to a root underlying understanding of why this is happening. Then just head on over to https://areyoureallyhealthy.com/brainspan and I'll see you there we can get to those answers soon guys. So thanks again. I've greatly appreciate you being here. Stay tuned for more with are you really healthy? Visit:  https://areyoureallyhealthy.com/brainspran

Hello Architect Nation! This morning, as usual, I went to the Crossfit gym where I work out with my wife and 6 - 7 other people. Our coach was explaining today's workout, when suddenly he was interrupted by the deafening noise of the gas-powered blower the yard maintenance guy was using outside. The Crossfit gym where I exercise is housed in a metal building. Both of the rolling doors were up to let in the cool morning air. Coach Devin crossed his arms with a smile, "Guess I'll have to wait until yard guy is done." Eventually the noise from the blower died down as the yard guy walked away. Coach Devin continued to explain the workout and I had a successful session sweating, grunting and in general torturing myself. This experience with the noisy yard blower got me thinking - how often are we interrupted by figurative yard blowers throughout our day? An unexpected phone call or an email sends me on a wild goose chase of being reactionary instead of pro-active. What I'd have you consider today is this - where in your firm are you being distracted by the noisy blowers instead of focusing on the strategic moves that will put your firm on a solid and successful foundation for the future? Where do you need to shut down the outside noise and focus on what matters? Have you identified what matters? The number one thing you can do to help your architecture firm in the future is to build a solid foundation now. The DREAM Practice Accelerator is a program for architecture firm owners who want to build their dream firm - a firm that is in-demand and highly sought after because of the great work that you do. To discover how to create your bullet-proof firm, click here and register for my next 60-minute DREAM Practice training. Carpe diem. Enoch Bartlett Sears

The Theory of Constraints is a management theory developed by Dr. Eliyahu Goldratt. He discusses it in his popular book, The Goal. The theory states that every system's output will be limited by it's weakest link. For instance, if you're doing an exercise - say squats, the amount you can lift will be limited by the muscle that gives out first when trying to lift the weight. In a building structural system, the integrity of the building is limited by the element that fails first. In a business system, if you can identify the constraint, you can work to pro-actively fix it, improving the efficiency and output of the entire system. This theory simplifies the improvement of your business - just find the weakest link, improve it, iterate, then find the next weakest link. Recently on a trip to the beach I had an experience that reminded me of the theory of constraints. My brother-in-law brought a fabric cooler he had gotten at Costco. The lid of the cooler is sealed shut with a zipper. The zipper broke, and now the entire cooler is useless. The cooler fell prey to the Theory of Constraints. If the manufacturer had designed a sturdier zipper, the cooler would have lasted longer - and another part would have failed first. What I'd have you consider today is what is the constraint in your business that is holding you back from getting the outcome you want? Identify this constraint and fix it. If you don't know how to fix it, consult with someone who does. If you want help fixing the constraints in your architecture firm, apply for the DREAM Practice Accelerator. Go to https://www.businessofarchitecture.com/reviews to find out more.

How you do one thing is how you do everything. The bad (and good) habits that we have repeat through all areas of life. This is a concept that one of my business mentors taught me years ago. Recently I took a hard look at my life and what I'm doing and I noticed this pattern showing up. First let me share an incident that reminded me of this recently, and then I'll share how I saw this pop up in my own life. Two weeks ago I was attending a business seminar. One guy out of our group was continually late to the sessions. When he finally arrived, he sat off to the side at the front of the room. After repeatedly seeing this guy walk in late, the man running the seminar confronted him. “You came to this seminar to learn how to improve your business. But you're showing up late. You're not engaging in the exercises and you're not even taking notes. Do you care about your f**ing business or not? The message I'm getting is that you don't care … you aren't ALL IN.” “How you do ONE THING is how you do EVERYTHING. My guess is that this habit shows up in other areas of your business and life. And this is one major reason why you aren't getting the results that you want.” Boom. I felt bad for the guy that was on the receiving end of this fire – he was stone-faced and silent, but he knew what the trainer was saying was true. How I Saw This In My Life Yesterday was Sunday, and I was at church with my family. One of my church responsibilities is to find someone to give an opening prayer and someone to give a closing prayer for the church service. I was sitting up on the stand waiting for the service to start with about one minute left. Suddenly, the Bishop (leader of the congregation) leans over to me and asks me if I had asked anyone to offer the prayers. Doh! I hadn't. It was all I could do to keep from letting loose an expletive there in front of the congregation – that would have been a meeting to remember! Feeling a temporary burst of embarrassment, I quickly stepped down from the stand and found two unwitting, but willing, victims in the congregation and asked them to give the prayers. Fortunately, they obliged. So what lesson did I learn from this? How you do one thing is how you do everything. I've always told myself that I'm not a ‘details' guy. This is the story I tell myself about who I am. I realize that lack of attention to the details is a repeated pattern for me (no surprise here). But my attitude changed when I considered how this habit is showing up in other areas of my life. Fortunately, I can change. So this moment of recognition allows me to take some actions and change my ways. If I can achieve what I've achieved without attention to the details, imagine what I can do when I become the person who handles not only the big picture, but the attention to details! This is how I like to think about things. What I'd have you consider today is this: Where in your business or your life do you have a pattern of doing something that is sabotaging the results you want to get? Perhaps you aren't even aware of this thing. Write that thing down in your journal and ask yourself the question, how is this pattern showing up in other areas of my life? What can I do to change it? That's all for today. Let me know your thoughts in the comments below. Carpe diem. Enoch Bartlett Sears

Zach sits down with Side Hustle Pro's Nicaila Matthews Okome to talk about all things hustle. She shares her career journey, promotes SHP's Podcast Moguls program, and breaks down the genesis of her Color Noir app. She also illustrates what it looks like to really build authentic relationships in today's space.Check out Side Hustle Pro!http://bit.ly/2Zl5c4rFind out more about SHP's Podcast Moguls program!http://bit.ly/2WtgG48Download Color Noir on the App Store!https://apple.co/2WGZSMgTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate. Now, look, y'all. Y'all know we have some dope guests on the show. Executives, musicians, entrepreneurs, activists. You know, real movers and shakers. I'm not trying to, like, not drop too many names, but I'm saying, like, you know, DeRay Mckesson, J. Prince, Preston Mitchum. I mean, come on. Like, we've got some peop--we've had some people on the show, and look, who would we be if we didn't bring y'all another dope guest, okay, to parlay with us, to kick back, to chit-chat, to lay back, to--you know, to kick it one time for the one time... Nicaila Matthews Okome!Nicaila: Woohoo![both laugh]Nicaila: What a warm welcome.Zach: Oh, no. Oh, I'm just getting started, Nicaila. Nicaila is a Jamaican-born Bronx-bred marketer and side hustler turned full-time podcaster and entrepreneur. Now, listen, y'all. She's Jamaican and she's from the BX, so she be workin' workin', okay?[both laugh]Zach: In 2016, Nicaila created the Side Hustle Pro podcast. Side Hustle Pro is the first and only podcast to spotlight bold black women entrepreneurs who have scaled from the side hustle to profitable businesses. Since the launch, it has been named the quote "perfect entrepreneurship podcast" by Mashable and earned over two million--hold on. [record scratch] Sound Man, give me some reverb when I say millions. So it's like, "Million-million-million-million." Million downloads and amassed a loyal social media following of aspiring entrepreneurs. Oh, yeah. I'm excited just reading the intro. So with all that being said, first of all, 'cause she's from the BX, I'm gonna add a hearty YEARP and--[both laugh]Zach: And I hope it's not culturally insensitive 'cause I recognize that you're Jamaican, but we're gonna add some air horns right HERE [they are dropped] and let these jaunts fly! Let's go! Nicaila, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Nicaila: I am doing amazing. Listen, after that intro, I am on a high, all right? That is, like, the best, most warm intro I've ever received. Thank you, Zach. Thank you for having me in the guest chair.Zach: Ooh. I'm honored, and I'm turning purple--'cause I'm blushing, you know what I'm saying? So for those of us who don't know you, and I know I gave a little bit in the intro, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Nicaila: Sure, sure. So yeah, you covered a lot, but I guess from what you didn't cover--so, you know, at the core, I am a dreamer, I am a storyteller, and when I was young, that looked like me being the little girl who loved, you know, making up stories, just being by herself in her own world, and later in life [it] would manifest in this career in marketing, specifically social media marketing. So I have over 10 years of experience in that lane, and while I was figuring out my life's journey, what ended up happening is--throughout my life I've side hustled and come up with different things a few times, but coming out of grad school I had a hard time finding a full-time role, and that led me back to the side hustle path, but this time I was determined to actually grow it to the point where I could do my own thing. So the side hustle was the podcast, Side Hustle Pro podcast like you said, and I was able to market and monetize it to the level where I was able to quit my full-time job and turn my side hustle into my full hustle, and now I coach emerging podcasters in my Podcast Moguls program because I want other people to be able to have that experience. And since I have a lot of jobs and, you know, that's just in my blood like you said, I'm also an app creator. So my husband and I recently launched the Color Noir app, which is an app devoted to all things melanin and Black Girl Magic. So really excited about that.Zach: Man. So first of all, you've got--you got a lot of dip on the chip, 'cause we was gonna get there, but it's okay. We're still gonna get there a little bit later in the interview. First of all, I love this. Yes, I love the Color Noir app. Definitely in Podcast Moguls. We're gonna talk about that as well. You know, it's interesting, 'cause my--I know that you talked about, like, you know, how you made the side hustle your full hustle. I feel like the scariest part of anything is getting started, right? So you talk about--you talk about kind of not really knowing what you wanted to do after grad school, but, like, plenty of people finish grad school and don't know what to do, and then they figure--you know, they do something. They end up going back to industry, or maybe they teach or something like that. What was the igniter for you to actually launch Side Hustle Pro specifically?Nicaila: So the igniter for me was really rejection. I got rejected so many times in that period between when I graduated from Michigan--I went to the University of Michigan for my MBA.Zach: Shout-out [?].Nicaila: Shout-out. Go Blue. Graduated in May 2015, and [I] didn't end up landing a full-time role until December of 2015. So between that time I had a whole bunch of rejections. I'm talking about--there was one company, I went on an interview--I had six interviews with, and I just knew I was gonna get that role... did not get the role.Zach: Mm-mm! [read: No!]Nicaila: Yeah! So what happened is I started blogging again and interviewing people, 1. because I was trying to figure out, "Okay, what can I do? I know I love writing. I know I love social media. Let me just explore and continue to work on things that bring me joy. I don't know what it means. God, I don't know how to make a career out of this," but I figured that while I don't have a job I should at least nurture those skills. So that was the initial impetus to just start the blog, and I was particularly interested in black women who were side hustling but were able to build out their business on the side, because 1. I was so tired of being rejected I was like, "Oh, I'm done with corporate. Even when I got a job, I gotta do my own thing. I gotta do my own thing shortly after, like, the last job I'm gonna get. No one's ever gonna be able to reject me again." And then 2. I also knew that, again, I was gonna go back to corporate and that anything that I was gonna start would have to start as me building it on the side.Zach: One thing you said that I love is that--what I've observed, especially for, like, younger folks, millennials--millennials ain't really younger no more. We're, like, not the youngest people [?] anymore. What we'll do is, like, you know, we don't know what we're doing, where to start, so we just kind of sit on our hands, and part of your story was you were like, "Look, I'm not getting a job. I'm gonna do something." Like, you took that and you used that energy and put it towards something that eventually manifested into something viable, and that's just--that's so inspiring to me, like, no boost, because I think a lot of times what I've noticed is, like I said, we'll just kind of, like, sit on our hands and be like, "Well, I don't really know what to do, so I'm not gonna do anything." It's like, "Well, no. You could do something," you know what I'm saying? Like, you could do--like, figure out--figure out something. Like, take that energy and put it towards something. Make it--Nicaila: Absolutely, yep.Zach: Yeah, make something--like, do something productive. Man, so that's just super dope. So, you know, we talked about the first scariest thing. I think the second scariest part of doing something entrepreneurial is realizing like, "Oh, snap. This is something I can actually do full-time." So, like, as you were building out Side Hustle Pro and as it was growing, at what moment did you go, "Ayo, this is gonna be me for real"? Like, "I got this"?Nicaila: So, you know, I kind of had two of those moments in my journey. So the first one happened when I was freelancing. So because I didn't have a job I was able to land, like, a freelancing gig with this organization, Management Leadership for Tomorrow, MLT, which prepares, you know, under-represented professionals for the career field and also has a super dope MBA prep program, which I went through, and I also went through it in undergrad.Zach: Yeah.Nicaila: Folks at MLT Family, much love to them, because they gave me a freelance role as a social media marketer during that summer while I was finding my way. That was one of the first moments where I was like, "Yo, I could--you know, worst comes to worst I could maybe start my own social media consulting agency. That's one thing I could do." But I kind of pushed that to the side because I was like--I just didn't know how I would start that, how I would get any clients and what that would look like, and I wasn't sure if that's what I wanted to do. So continued to do that, continued to interview, got my full-time role--which ended up being at NPR, National Public Radio, in Washington, D.C., doing social media for their programming and their podcasts, ironically. So as I was doing that I ended up turning the blog into a podcast at that point, and the moment when I thought "I think I could do this full-time" is when I decided to start going after sponsorships. So within six months of the podcast launching, I pitched my first sponsor, and it just so happened that cold pitching--I landed that first sponsorship contract, and it was $4,000, and it's like, you know, $4,000 living below your means? Like, that could cover me. Like, I could live off that.Zach: Ayo, straight up.Nicaila: So I was like, "Wait a minute." I really went hard. "I could do this full-time." So that was that first light-bulb moment.Zach: Man, that's really cool. The other thing--and your story is, like, just putting yourself out there, right? You took a shot. Like, you had some evidence under your belt that, like, this was something viable with the podcast, and you said "Okay, I'm gonna put something together," and you--and you made it. That's really cool because, you know, people out here trying to pitch and stuff all the time, and I know we're gonna talk about Podcast Moguls in a little bit, but everybody doesn't make it on their first attempt, you know what I'm saying? Like, you hit a full-court--you pulled up from, like, 40, like Steph Curry [?]. And wet. My gosh.Nicaila: It was such a--it was such a good fit, and that's what I try to tell people about sponsorships and pitching anything. Like, you really have to know who you're pitching and what is in it for them. Like, what are you providing? Is your audience a good fit? You have to know your audience too.Zach: You know what? And it's interesting--and I think your marketing background plays a part in this, right? Like, understanding--understanding, like, the mind of your audience and understanding, like, the psychology behind even putting together an effective pitch. And, you know, I've been in Corporate America since 2011, and one thing I've seen is that first-gen corporate professionals, especially black and brown folks, are not the best at really marketing themselves, whether that be, like, to get a promotion or find another job or even to, like, get a side hustle going or get sponsorship and get support for a side hustle. I met folk with genuine passions, and I know, like, part of the TED talk is--[we?] didn't talk about this and all the stuff--in your quick intro, you know what I'm saying, you're still really humble, Nicaila. Like, you didn't talk about the fact that you was on--that you had a TED talk and you [were] talking about multi-passionate professionals and the future of work. But it's okay, I'ma let you make it. But I've met some folks with multiple passions or ideas and aspirations that they've been sitting on for years. Like, they have--like, they have ideas for years. Like, what would advice would you give to folks who don't really know where to start when it comes to amplifying your voice in the working context?Nicaila: First thing I always tell people is you've got to get out your own way, so the first obstacle is your mind and all of the stories we tell ourselves about, "Oh--" And a big thing that holds us back is what we tell ourselves people are going to think, when in actuality none of that matters. Those people--these, like, mystical people that you're making up that are gonna say this or that or these obstacles that are allegedly going to get in your way, let that happen and then deal with it rather than assume it's gonna happen and stop yourself before you even try. So that's #1, get out your way, and #2. Start so ridiculously small. Just by--you can write down everything you think you need to do and then start chipping away at that. So for example with a podcast, I thought about it in 2015. I didn't end up launching until 2016, but that's because I needed to tell myself, "Oh, I'm gonna learn how to do it first." So I spent some time just YouTubing, I spent some time listening to other podcasts to get a feel and doing all that stuff. Like, that was part of my process, but I knew I had an end date in mind, I had a launch date in mind. So start going through the process of launching what it is you want to launch. Invest in experts so that you can learn from the best. I'm not talking about taking endless courses. I'm talking about looking at the top person who you want to replicate and investing--if they have something--investing in learning more from them, whether that be going to a conference that they have, investing in a course that they have, because there's no sense in you, like, sitting around, trying to figure everything out on your own and getting in your own way. So those are my two biggest tips.Zach: That's--man, that's really dope. You know, and it's interesting because I feel like a lot of what you're talking about also comes down to really, like, understanding who you're trying to connect with and building authentic relationships. It's tough though because, like, it feels as if everyone, especially in 2019, is in sales mode on every social media platform, right? I mean, like, no joke. I was on LinkedIn today, and look--you know, Nicaila, I'm a fairly handsome man, okay? My teeth are--my teeth are fine, and yet, like, this dentist hit--a dentist hit me up on LinkedIn talking about "If you need anything, you know, with your dentist needs and you have, you know... use this promo code." I was like, "What?" Why is a dentist pitching me on LinkedIn?Nicaila: I bet you what though. Guess what? Because it's worked for him. I bet you that's why.Zach: I bet, I bet. And I can't knock the hustle. We live in a capitalist society, you know what I'm saying? It's built on the dollar. I get it, you know? Whatever. Different topic for a different day, but with that being said, what does relationship building look like in 2019 when these platforms that were initially built or pitched to us as really, like, relationship building and community building are really being used to kind of always, you know, sell something. And people are fatigued from that, they're wary of that. What does it look like to really build authentic relationships in today's space?Nicaila: Well, you know, I--before I answer that, I do want to say that I don't necessarily think sales is a bad thing. So that's where we can have a dialogue, because I think that's part of the reason why--that stops a lot of us from taking our business from where it needs to go, because we've been taught that sales is a bad word--and don't get me wrong, there are a lot of bad salespeople. There's a lot of practices out there that I'm like, "Come on." For example, when I get a DM that's just, like, selling me. Like, and I don't even know the person. I'm like, "This ain't it. This ain't it."Zach: Yeah.Nicaila: It's like, "This works for you? No, this is not happening." So I know I said the dentist, that might work for him, but honestly most DM pitches are 100% terrible. But at the same time, if you're using your platform to tell people more about your services, like, that's how people are gonna know about it, otherwise no one will discover it. And I've even experienced that with Podcast Moguls, right? You know, because I did a soft launch I wasn't talking about it as much, but when I finally really started to ramp up sharing, sharing, sharing, that's now when I'm beginning to build the level of awareness that I want to get to, because not everyone sees every post. Actually, no one sees every post, so in order to make sure that everyone knows about it you have to continue to talk about what you're doing, and that's what I think of it as - talking. So some people think of sales as pushing and being really aggressive to try to force someone to do something. That's not what I think of it as. I think of explaining to people what you know and leaving--and allowing them to make an informed decision. So that's #1, and #2. I absolutely still think of social media as relationship building. I mean, look at us. I think that--you know, we met via email, right, when you reached out for this podcast, and we continued--even though I couldn't do it at the first moment that you reached out, we continued--you know, [?], might touch base via DM or what have you, and a lot of the people who end up enrolled in any of my programs, whether it's Podcast Moguls or my Master the Gram program, a lot of them follow me on social media, and we have talked multiple times--we've had multiple touch points, and when they're looking and they're ready for an expert to help them with Instagram marketing or launching their podcast, they immediately turn to me and trust me because they know that we have a relationship. It's not just that they saw my ad. Some people it is, but for most people they had some kind of connection with me before they enrolled in my program.Zach: That's real talk, and you know what? Again, I'ma brag for you, 'cause it's--it's funny, because the reason I even connected with you--so I would have likely found you anyway, right, but what accelerated me to connect with you is because there are people in my network, when they knew that I was starting a podcast they were like, "Oh, you need to talk to Nicaila," and so your brand had already established itself enough that I had heard about you in other ways and then kind of--I connected to you through an informal referral.Nicaila: Yeah. [What I'd add?] too about relationship building--so I'm that weird person who, like, I look at Instagram as the same way I would a networking event, and because I'm actually an introvert, because I prefer--I'm a homebody--I prefer social media networking over going to--walking into random rooms where I don't know people. That's just always been my preference, but I'm not a weirdo. Like, I actually--[both laugh] I engage with people's comments. I mean, I will leave a meaningful comment once I start following you. I will--we will have actual, like, meaningful dialogue [?], and so that's how I view relationship building on social media, and then when I have the chance, I do try to connect with people, and I'm doing more of that, especially this year. So there are people who I've talked to on social and Instagram specifically, and I feel like I know them, but I haven't, but then when I go to conferences where I know that, you know, a good amount of these people are gonna be there, that's an awesome moment to kind of cement that relationship. So it started online, and then we make the offline connection, which just helps it to flourish even more.Zach: I love that, and I do appreciate you pushing back and challenging. I do think that it's definitely a space where you can make those connections, and I love the fact that you reinforced that. I think because on my side--and it might be just--you know, that's why I'm in your Podcast Moguls class, and we're about to talk about that in a second, but it might just be because of, like, the level of interaction I get where it's, like, a lot of, just, DM requests about, like, sales-y things, and not necessarily, like, just relational things. So with that being said, let's talk about a little bit more about what you have going on and where people can learn more. I'd like to start with Podcast Moguls because I'm currently in it, and I'm loving it. And then I'd love to talk about the Color Noir app, but I'ma let you wax poetic. You take it where you want to go.Nicaila: Sure. So Podcast Moguls is, you know, one of the major, major things that I have going on, because in 2018 I realized after--speaking of DMs--after years of just, you know--ever since I launched my podcast, after years of just, like, getting DMs, consistent emails, questions, questions, questions about how to do this whole podcast thing and how to grow it to the scale that Side Hustle Pro has grown to, I decided to package my knowledge and actually launch an accelerator program. One was to finally answer everyone's questions in one place, and the second was because when you look at the podcast charts, it is just really lacking in diversity, okay?Zach: It is, it is.Nicaila: And I'm like--I know we have a lot of great things to say and a lot of information, so there's no reason why we shouldn't be up there, but it's not enough to have great content. It's not enough to have valuable content. You have to know the marketing piece, and that's what I realized was my differentiator, my background in marketing. So I started my Podcast Moguls, which is an 8-week accelerator. Essentially I take people through the process of--you can start if you've already launched. So if you've already launched you can go right into working through the [?] steps to scale your podcast, but I also take people through the steps of launching, coming out the gate strong, growing that audience, and then continuing to grow from there. We have weekly coaching calls, so it's really cool because--it's not just a course, it is an opportunity for me to also really learn what people are struggling with so that I can continue to stay on my toes and just refine and refine content and give people information. So it's been a really rewarding experience for me. I think sometimes when we are on this path of entrepreneurship doing very untraditional things--like I said, when I was really exploring blogging I was like, "I don't know where this is gonna lead. This makes no sense. This can't possibly be a job." And I still have those moments where I'm like, "This can't possibly be a job," but I've learned through Podcast Moguls is when I see the results that people are getting, their reactions when they break in the Top 200 charts in their category and break through 10,000, 20,000 and more downloads and land their first sponsor, that has been a light-bulb moment for me to realize, like, "Listen, bloom where you are planted." You never understand exactly why you are doing this thing right now, but keep doing it. One day it will all make sense, because this is benefiting someone. This is providing value. And this is gonna change your lives--just like launching a podcast has changed my life, this is going to change your life. So I really am just so happy that I launched Podcast Moguls, and for anyone out there who's listening and, you know, has an idea for a podcast or started their podcasts and want to take it seriously and not just treat it as a hobby, I definitely recommend you come over to the program. Just go to PodcastMoguls.com. So you said to also talk about Color Noir, right?Zach: I did, but can we just pause for a second?Nicaila: Sure, yes. Yeah, I think we do need to pause, because you're in the program and, you know, you can definitely speak to being a podcaster who has a podcast, was doing your own thing, growing on your own and deciding to join.Zach: Yeah. So first of all I love the passion, right? And so, like, I got this app--see, I ain't trying to be just too--just too ridiculous, 'cause I was gonna play, like, these little "ow"--'cause I felt like you was preaching. Like, "Mmm." Like, "[imitating]," you know? I was like, "Golly, she is going off." But yeah, no, no doubt. You're absolutely right. Living Corporate has been around for about a little over a year, and so we're at a point now where I feel like we are--we're definitely continuing to grow, but I want us to get to that next level, and I'm a little impatient, and I also just--there's a lot of things that I know I don't know, and so what I've loved about Podcast Moguls so far is how open it is and how it really does reinforce community through the social media aspect. I love the content. It's just really--it's just really, like, smartly put together. Like, it's very interactive. It's self-paced, which is really important because I'm a manager at a big four consulting firm, so, like, I don't have time in the regular part of my day. I have to kind of, like, carve out time in my weekend to get in--I just love it. I love it. I'm just now really getting into the marketing aspect of it, but what I've already gone through just to, like, the basics and, like, the background, and, like--I'm loving it. I think it's absolutely great, and I definitely--this is not even an ad.Nicaila: That makes me so happy. Right? That's not even an ad.Zach: This is not an ad, y'all. I am not a corporate shill, okay? I am for the people. Yo, I'm still with y'all. I'm still with y'all. Don't play.Nicaila: No, but that makes me so happy, and also I'm really excited for you because I'm a listener of Living Corporate, and like I said, it's all about--Zach: Stop. Stop.Nicaila: No. It's all about this valuable content [needing to get?] in the right areas. Like, you know how many of us struggle with this? I mean, all of my business school classmates, like, this is our dilemma right now. This is--this is what I see people talking about in GroupMe and these conversations that you're having on the show. So it's all about getting it in front of more people.Zach: Man, I'm so honored that you listen to the show. Dang. I'm, like, really dang cheesin'. Uh, cool. Cool, cool, cool. Let me--[composes himself] All right, cool, so let's talk about this Color Noir app. So before you get going, I love the pictures, right? Like, it's super fire, and, like, Candice, my wife, she's a big--she's a big colorer, so, like, when she--she's in it as well. Like, we're fans. We are fans.Nicaila: Yay! I love to hear that too. So Color Noir, I mean, yeah, I didn't realize how big coloring books was until my husband Muoyo--like, he is--you know, he's the app guy of us, so he has been in the app business for almost ten years, and he kept coming across all of these coloring books. "Coloring books?" And he's like, you know, "I think we should create a coloring book app, but for black people," because as usual, everything that's created is not created with black people in mind. The images, you know? Look at Disney, Disney movies. You talked about Band-Aids in one episode. It's crazy that literally--Zach: We did talk about Band-Aids.Nicaila: Literally everything that's created on Earth was not created for us. So that's a big opportunity, y'all, for those of you out there figuring out what to create, literally look at anything--Zach: [laughs] And make it black.Nicaila: [?] selling it, okay? So, you know, he brought the idea to me. Of course I loved it because I just love seeing myself represented, you know? That's why, as soon as Rihanna launched Fenty, like, I--that's my exclusive makeup line now simply because I love what it represents. So we developed this together, so he worked with the actual developers and, you know, handled the technical side whereas I was all about the look and feel, because I am a user. I am the target customer, so I needed it to be reflective of me. And then one of the smart things that we did, we also created a Facebook group so that as people are using it--when we launched it it was beta, so everyone could use it, give us feedback before we really started marketing it, and so that group gave us really great feedback about skin tones, us needing to add more skin tones, the images, and of course Android, which is coming very soon, so--Zach: Look at y'all. First of all, it's so fire. It's so fire. Like, the designs are so intricate too. These are beautiful stencils.Nicaila: Yeah. So, like, we discuss every image, 'cause it's like, "What is this--" You know, it can't be too complicated that you can't color it, but at the same time we wanted images--eye-catching images that you don't see every day. You don't see a black mom breastfeeding her child in any old app, okay? So that's what we got going on. So check out Color Noir, y'all. N-O-I-R.Zach: Come on, now. And look, Nicaila, you know we got you. We're gonna have all the information in the show notes, so y'all make sure you check [them] out. Now, look, you know that we could keep on going, but let me just go ahead and stop, because we got other things going on. I want to respect your time. Any parting words or shout-outs?Nicaila: Yes. So parting words. First and foremost, I want everybody out there, if you have a passion that you are not exploring right now, start making some time every week just to see--just to see--what it would be like if you actually pursued it, and also if you want that kind of encouragement, definitely come over to the Side Hustle Pro community. We are Side Hustle Pro on every social media platform, so on Instagram, Facebook, just search Side Hustle Pro, and of course I really hope you listen to the podcast if you haven't already to get inspiration from dope black women entrepreneurs who started as side hustlers.Zach: Come on, now. Look, that--this is awesome. First of all, Nicaila, for real, thank you for being on the show. This has been wonderful, and--Nicaila: Thank you so much for having me.Zach: That does it for us, y'all. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com, but look, don't play. Our DMs are wide open, so you can go ahead and DM us. We'll make sure that we shout y'all out. Get your letter in that way. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Nicaila Matthews Okome, founder of Side Hustle Pro, multi-passionate entrepreneur and general snatcher of your edges and mine. Peace.

I've had a number of people come up to me and say, "We're so sad that you're leaving, Ryan, but are you going to finish this series?"  Yes, I am.  Today, we're going to jump into the subject of science and the Scriptures; then, next week, yes, on Father's Day, I'm going to be teaching on the issue of sexuality and Brave in the New World and how that all ties together.  You're welcome.  I promised on Mother's Day, when I taught a message on Evil and Suffering, that I would be equally offensive on Father's Day.  Praise be to God, it's all worked out!   I want to start with a question:  Who would win if the Colorado Rockies played the Denver Broncos?  The question you should ask is what are they playing?  Before I put money on either team, I want to know what we're playing.  While they're all athletes and they're all talented in their own right, they have different specialties, don't they?  They have different bents.  They have different things that they practice day after day, night after night.  They have different things that they're professionals at.  I think a lot of times we ask the question:  Are you a person of faith or are you a person of science?  Who wins---the Rockies or the Broncos?  I think we build this false dichotomy that you have to decide whether or not you're a Bible person---which means then that you have to ignore all good science---or whether you're a science person---in our mind that means we have to ignore the Bible.  What I'd like to do today is propose to you that maybe there's a third way.  Maybe Richard Dawkins, in his book The God Delusion, was wrong, when he argued that you cannot be an intellectual scientific thinker and hold on to religious beliefs.  He's wrong.   I think the Scriptures actually invite us into that tension.  Would you open with me to Matthew 2:1-2; we're going to start our time there this morning...  

Welcome to our celebration of the resurrection.  My name's Ryan.  We get to celebrate the reason for hope today.  That's why we gather.  A few weeks ago, my friend, who's also a pastor in the area, Nirup, sent me a text message.  It said: What's your morning look like MC? {Because people call me MC.  Just kidding, they don't.  I don't know why he said that?}  Have you ever read a text message, got the words right, but the intent wrong?  I wrote back to my buddy Nirup and said this:  I get up at 5:45 and go on a run (treadmill in the basement).  Then read scripture and pray.  Then wake the kids up and get them ready to go on the bus.  On late start days, which is Wednesday, I have time for additional reading. You?  He responded to me:  That was very descriptive.  I more meant yo dawg my meeting canceled.  You bored and wanna grab coffee later.   He's right, I was descriptive.  I broke it down on days.  I gave timestamps.  Wow!   I had the words right, but I had the meaning wrong. I think when we hear resurrection, we have the words right, but we might get the meaning wrong.  I think a lot of us, we hear the word resurrection, and we think, this is the good news, we get to go to heaven when we die.  That's a part of the story, but it's a really small part of the story of resurrection.  That's getting the text message just a little bit wrong.  What I'd like to do this morning is look at John's gospel; if you have your Bible, you can open it to John 19.  We're going to let John, one of Jesus's good friends, sort of reframe that word resurrection for us.  Maybe build it out a little bit.  Maybe we can get the text message right...

Pricing is a sensitive topic at the best of times, but it gets even more interesting when we talk about whether or not you should display your prices on your website. In the episode we cover: - Why you might not have your prices on your website - Benefits of putting your prices on your website - What WE did and the results we got - What I'd recommend that you do Like most website topics, we discuss this kind of thing in our membership. To find out more visit https://makeyourmarkonline.net

Hello and welcome to Debbie's Daily Tips. Today I wanted to talk about pre-listing packages. There was a time in the market when lots of agents were sending out a pre-listing package. The purpose of this was to prepare for the sale. It was to sell the seller in advance on all the great stuff that you do, your track record, your credentials, etc. It was very popular for a while, and then I noticed that agents kind of just stopped doing it. I will sometimes ask them, why? Why did you stop? One of the common answers is, “I found that the people didn't read the package, so I felt that it was a waste of my time to do it.” My marketing expert, Pete Mitchell, and I were talking about this just the other day and he reminded me of something called the thud factor. If you do choose to deliver a pre-listing package, keep in mind that emailing is probably not that effective. Are they going to open it up? Are they going to download it? Are they going to print it? Are they really going to read it? Probably not. Everybody's busy, and they may not even see it in their email. So if you choose to actually print and deliver it the package, you know it has the impact of being a professional piece with lots of great content, a piece that, even if just briefly flipped through, does give you a little extra measure of credibility. Now, when you go on that listing appointment, don't assume that they've actually read it. In fact, don't ask them if they read it because if you ask them, they might feel the need to lie and say yes. Just proceed, assuming they have not read it. Take your key points, your highlights, the things you want to discuss with them on that listing appointment about the marketing that you do and the services you provide. You could say something like this, “Mr. and Mrs. Seller, I hope you had an opportunity to flip through the information that I sent over to you. What I'd like to do, is I'd like to just go through the highlights together, the things that I feel are most important for you. So if you don't mind, I'd like to share with you what we're going to do so that I can arrive at the highest realistic price possible.” So again, I would keep your presentation simple and concise, not lots and lots of pages, but really distilled down to who you are, what you're going to do, and then of course, what the property is likely to sell for. Alright, so make it a great day, and email me, debbiedegrote@gmail.com, if you have any questions.   If you are a real estate agent or broker that is looking to for more insight and direction on how to get more listings, sell more homes to your investors, and work with more buyers, then this podcast is just for you!

Kriben Govender (Honours Degree in Food Science & Technology) and James Shadrach (Honours Degree in Psychology) have a wide ranging discussion with Dr Zach Bush MD on the rise of autism, glyphosate and the microbiome, plant based eating, regenerative farming and much more   Bio: Zach Bush, MD is one of the few triple board-certified physicians in the USA with expertise in Internal Medicine, Endocrinology and Metabolism, and Hospice/Palliative care. The breakthrough science that Dr. Bush and his colleagues have delivered offer profound new insights into human health and longevity. In 2012, he discovered a family of carbon-based redox molecules made by bacteria. He and his team subsequently demonstrated that this cellular communication network functions to compensate for glyphosate, and many other dietary, chemical, and pharmaceutical toxins that disrupt our body's natural defence systems. This science has resulted in a revolutionary class of dietary supplements, including the product, RESTORE. Dr. Bush points to his kids as the driving force behind his passion for change. He is fiercely motivated by a desire to have them experience a much brighter and healthier future. His education efforts provide a grassroots foundation from which we can launch change in our legislative decisions, ultimately up-shifting consumer behaviour to bring about radical change in the mega industries of big farming, big pharma, and Western Medicine at large. Learn more at www.zachbushmd.com, www.intrinsichealthseries.com, and www.restore4life.com.   Topics discussed:   Gut Brain connection  Our three brains Human connection via technology What does it mean to be human? Collision of spirituality and science The significance of Vacuum space and the Flower of Life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overlapping_circles_grid#Modern_usage http://www.davidfurlong.co.uk/egypttour_osirion.html Data flow in Black Holes and Hawking Radiation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation Collective consciousness Extinction of the earth’s biology and the human race Life boats off planet earth Why are we getting sicker?  Chronic disease in children The Healthcare Burden The Rise of Autism The Productivity burden of Chronic Diseases Can Australia learn from the USA Glyphosate (Roundup) Cancer Alley- The highest rate of cancer on the planet Glyphosate (Roundup)- The microbiome destroyer The Impact of Glyphosate (Roundup) in Australia Childhood Asthma in Australia A message for Australian Policy Makers and Politicians The intrepidness of Australian Consumers Transition to Regenerative Agriculture http://farmersfootprint.us/our-story/ https://www.charliearnott.com.au/ (AUS) Carbon Depletion in Plants via NPK usage The effective of over tilling on the soil mycobiome  The benefits of Soil rolling and crimping/ live stock management Recovering ancient seed banks to rejuvenate top soil Cover crops What is leaky gut? Glyphosate(Roundup) and the microbiome Our intelligent barrier system- tight junctions Alcohol and leaky gut The Impact Glyphosate on our barrier system Tight junctions in blood vessels and blood brain barrier Endocrine dysfunction What is Terrahydrite (Restore)? Terrahydrite, a liquid circuit board for cellular communication Terrahydrite and Ageing  Why are seeing a rise in Autoimmune dysfunction The cascade of multiple Autoimmune dysfunctions How Zach instills his values to his children Choosing low footprint foods The benefit of plant based eating on our planet Reducing meat consumption The negative impacts of dairy milk Fermented dairy products The impact of pasteurised dairy Eating Organic Organic to Regenerative Farm Know your farmer Zach’s top diet tip       Brought to you by:   Nourishmeorganics- Gut Health Super Store- Shine from the Inside https://www.nourishmeorganics.com.au/   Restore Products available here (10% off using code Zach):   https://www.nourishmeorganics.com.au/collections/restore    Allele Microbiome- Gut Microbiome Testing   Shop Microbiome Stool testing (10% off Gut Explorer Pro using code: gutlove)    https://www.allele.com.au/collections/frontpage/products/gut-microbiome-analysis     Connect with Dr Zach Bush MD:   Website- http://zachbushmd.com/ Facebook- https://www.facebook.com/ZachBushMD/ Twitter- https://twitter.com/DrZachBush Youtube- https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1SXr9d2DYawP_bwcNpbd2w Instagram- https://www.instagram.com/zachbushmd/      Connect with Kriben Govender:  Facebook- https://www.facebook.com/kribengee/ Instagram- https://www.instagram.com/kribengovender/ Youtube- https://www.youtube.com/c/Nourishmeorganics?sub_confirmation=1 Gut Health Gurus Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/nourishmeorganics/     Download links             If you enjoyed this episode and would like to show your support:   1) Please subscribe on Itunes and leave a positive review     Instructions:   - Click this link  https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/gut-health-gurus-podcast/id1433882512?mt=2   - Click "View in Itunes" button on the left hand side - This will open Itunes app - Click "Subscribe" button - Click on "Ratings and Reviews" tab - Click on "Write a Review" button     2) Subscribe, like and leave a positive comment on Youtube   https://www.youtube.com/c/Nourishmeorganics?sub_confirmation=1   3) Share your favourite episode on Facebook, Instagram, and Stories 4) Let your friends and family know about this Podcast by email, text, messenger etc   5) Support us on Patreon for as little as $5 per month and get same day, early access to our latest podcasts (typically around 4 to 6 weeks earlier than the general public) https://www.patreon.com/nourishmeorganics   Thank you so much for your support. It means the world to us.   Full Transcript   Kriben Govender:          Hey, you guys. Kriben Govender from the Gut Health Gurus Podcast. I've got a background in food science. My colleague, James Shadrach, has got a background in psychology. We have got a guest for you today, Dr. Zach Bush, MD, coming live from the US. Zach, thank you so much for coming on the show. Zach Bush:                    What a pleasure to be on with you guys. Thank you, everybody listening, for your time and attention and interest in this subject. We're really going to be knocking on some of the most important foundations of the human health, human epidemics of disease around the world, and really the financial wellness of our nations going forward. So excited to have all you guys present. Thank you for being so kind to have me here as a guest. Kriben Govender:          Our pleasure. Zach, what we like to do is, just to set the scene for the audience, who is Dr. Zach Bush, MD? Zach Bush:                    You're making it sound very mysterious there. But, yeah, I think I'm on a lifelong journey to figure that out as well. I think that's part of why we're here. It's to figure out who we are and why we're here and where we're heading. Zach Bush:                    I am, I think, a reformed or continuously reforming medical doctor. I spent 17 years in the academic experience of becoming a doctor and going through all my postdoctoral training. I became triple board-certified first in internal medicine. I went on in internal medicine in the hospital environment to be chief resident and teach residents and students and faculty at University of Virginia. Zach Bush:                    Then went on to a fellowship training in endocrinology and metabolism, which is the study of hormones and how they regulate everything from the brain to a neurologic function to organ systems, things like the thyroid, reproduction, different aspects. It was then on faculty in endocrinology at the University of Virginia. Zach Bush:                    Decided to leave my research in 2010. My research was in chemotherapy development in cancer and how it related to nutrition ultimately, like how does metabolism or the fueling of the machine have to do with cancer cells. That was my niche was finding chemotherapeutic nutritional agents, vitamin A compounds and the like, that could disrupt cancer metabolism at the mitochondrial level. Zach Bush:                    I left all of that in 2010 to start a nutrition center in a poverty-stricken area of Virginia, a little town of 550 people, serving about 40,000 rural people who really were in a food desert; no grocery stores of any quality, et cetera. Zach Bush:                    In that journey, I had to continuously be deconstructing my understanding of not just being a doctor in human health, but really deconstructing my understanding of biology itself. What does it mean to be biologically human? That has a lot to do with things like inflammation, immune function, all these general topics. But, interestingly, excited be on your show because you tie in the psychology so well. Zach Bush:                    The psychology and mental health turns out to be very tied into nutrition now. We know that have turned over the last decade to this whole gut-brain axis as a huge new understanding of human physiology, and that makes it sound like the human gut is tied to the human brain. While that is true, and every day more true, the new science over the last three or four years that's really pointing to the microbiome, the ecosystem outside of the human is actually regulating the gut which is regulating the brain. Zach Bush:                    In a very interesting fashion, we can say that the first brain, from my perspective, is now the microbiome. The second brain is the gut and how it deals with the information of the microbiome. Then the third brain, the central processing unit, and nothing more than that, is the human brain. Zach Bush:                    We have to stop thinking of this as the cognitive center of human experience. Start to understand it's only our relationship to nature itself that would initiate the opportunity for self-identity in a world of consciousness, for the initial thought, for the maintenance of healthy brain function. Zach Bush:                    90% of the serotonin made in the body is made in the gut lining, the [inaudible 00:04:19] cells. 50% of the dopamine is made in the gut lining and another 40% of the total body is made in the kidneys. So 90% of dopamine, 90% of serotonin. That's a whole new world for understanding neuropathologies, neuro health, all of this. Zach Bush:                    Who is Zach Bush is starting to become really I am a product of my environment, and my environment is certainly my microbiome at the individual level. I'm starting to understand myself better and better in relationship to I'm only as healthy as the ecosystem that I live within. Zach Bush:                    If I limit my experience to drywall boxes that we call houses, plastic off-gassing cars, and a carpeted, artificially-infused office space, if that's my environment, I can't actually be Zach Busch. I will be some sort of diminishing version of Zach Bush, but I won't be the full self-identity, self-encapsulated, self- purposed machine that I should be. Zach Bush:                    That's at the individual level. But what I'm finding in my own life is my spiritual wellness and my own psychological conception of cognition is starting to rise as I get more and more integrated into the macro community as well. It's only through interacting with beautiful people like yourselves that I really get to see myself in its fullest measure. Zach Bush:                    This is the phenomenon and the beauty of community and my one excitement about technology. In general, I think the information technology age has threatened human health on many, many levels. But the one silver lining is connection. The ability for us to sit here and look at each other ... You're at 3:00 a.m. there, so it's kind of you guys to be up in the middle night for me, I'm mid-morning here in Virginia, and yet we're having a real communion together through this technological thing. Zach Bush:                    We can celebrate the opportunity we have to become a global community outside of the manipulation of the third parties that has historically determined who your network is, who is your sphere of influence who can help you move to your next level. That's now become freely accessible to the vast majority of humans. Carry a cell phone, you're connected to the world. Zach Bush:                    I am excited that while we continue to understand the extraordinary relationship and opportunity we have in the microbiome, that's our micro-ecosystem. Our macro-ecosystem should mirror that in opportunity. That's a long answer that I'm starting to think lays the foundation for the rest of our conversation. Kriben Govender:          Absolutely. Zach, what does it mean to be human? Zach Bush:                    Wow! Such a cool question. I think this is something that's always been batted around by the spiritual world, religion giving us some constructs over the last 5,000 years, no matter if it's in the pre-Christian world where we have the Roman and Greek mythologies predated by the Persian mythologies and going back in time. The spiritual religious realms have been batted around. What is it to be human? What are gods? What is outside of human consciousness? Where's all this coming from? Zach Bush:                    That, of course, went into conflict in some ways with the scientific realm as the Persians developed the science. Then that matured through the brilliance of the Greek philosophy and starting to really wrap systematic thought processes and philosophical structures around the science. We're good 3,000, 4,000 years into collision of religion and science in regard to this question of was is it to be human. Zach Bush:                    My [inaudible 00:08:04] about being alive right this moment and in the part of my career that I'm in right now is I feel like, for the first time in 180,000 years of human existence, we're knocking on this moment now where religion and spiritual belief systems are cross-secting scientific evidence. We're starting at what is the fabric of being human? But it has a lot of structures that haven't been preached to or understood in the spiritual realm. Zach Bush:                    What is it to be human, you are ultimately made of the same fabric that the stars are made of, that the planet itself is made of, bizarrely, even the vacuum space out there between the planets. You're made of the same fabric, and that fabric is a combination of atoms and their system. An atom is the building block for what would be an element in the periodic chart. The periodic chart becomes the building blocks for a molecule. A molecule becomes a building block for a cell. A cell becomes the building block for a human organ. Human organs become the building blocks for a whole 70 trillion-celled organism that we would call human. Zach Bush:                    But one thing that we have to hold on to, because right now if you go into a doctor, they're going to do maybe a CT scan or an MRI and take pictures of all your organs, and they're going to convince you that you're an organ system creature and you're built up of two kidneys and a liver and a brain and the neurologic system and two lungs and heart. It's a rudimentary belief system about who you are and what you are physically. Zach Bush:                    What's been lacking in modern medicine, which is anything but modern when you start to consider the physics of the situation, the modern medicine continues to look at the solid part of you. The problem with that is that only 0.001% of you is actually solid. 99.999% of you is actually vacuumed space. Zach Bush:                    That is truth based on the structure again of the atom. The atoms that make up the entire universe are inherently a tiny, tiny bit solid. There's a tiny little solid core made up of protons and neutrons, which, bizarrely, actually have the same structure. A proton has the same structure as the black hole that's in the center of our galaxy. It's a double tetrahedron. Zach Bush:                    Bizarrely, that double tetrahedron is the three-dimensional Star of David or the star on the Muslim flag or it is the two dimension ... If you project the three-dimensional structure, which is called a 64 double tetrahedron, down into a two-dimensional structure, it's actually the flower of life. Zach Bush:                    That two-dimensional design of the flower of life, if you haven't seen this thing, just Google flower of life and you'll see a million different depictions of this, and you'll find out that that depiction was actually etched with some sort of laser technology. We don't know what it was, but predating the Egyptians, whoever built the pyramids 10,000 years ago, etched this flower of life into the structures, into the blocks of many other pyramids. Zach Bush:                    All the way back 10,000 years, somehow they knew that this was the secret to life itself. This was the structure that was the fabric of everything. To find out now in just the last few years that that flower of life, when popped into a three-dimensional structure, is a 64 double tetrahedron, which was the structure of our proton, which is the structure of a black hole, you start to realize what is it to be human? To be human is simply to be yet another face, another pixel version of the expression of the universe itself. Kriben Govender:          Wow! Zach Bush:                    That sounds very heady and very grandiose on some level, and yet we have some very interesting concrete proof that this actually plays out at the macro level of being human and being in the human experience. These experiments were done on college campuses. Zach Bush:                    Before I tell you what the study was, I need to explain to you that a black hole, whether out in a galaxy or representing the structure of a single proton in one of your atoms, is a structure called a double torus in regard to its motion. It's a gravitational field that pulls everything inside of it. People are familiar with the black hole concept, right? It's such a powerful gravitational force. It even pulls light into it. Zach Bush:                    Well, part of that thing that's getting sucked in at the proton level is actually the electron itself. We think that the electron is being sucked right inside the proton into the black hole and then spitting back out, and it's cycling in and out of there in an extraordinarily fast millionths of a second speed of rate. Zach Bush:                    The black holes out in the universe also are taking in and spitting out electrical data. Stephen Hawking, the famous astrophysicists who passed away recently, Stephen Hawking became famous for discovering these particles that are coming out of this information stream, out of black holes in the universe, and so they got named Hawking particles. He held that that was this random information flowing out of black holes. Zach Bush:                    It turns out that many other physicists, and including himself in the end, would agree that there seemed to be structure to that information, meaning that there's some sort of data or knowledge that's flowing in and out of black holes. He and other physicists have proved that all the black holes are connected through wormholes or some other phenomenon in the astrophysics quantum world, such that any black hole putting in and out information would have the same information exchanged across all the black holes in the whole galaxy, and then in the whole universe [inaudible 00:13:59]. Zach Bush:                    As such, every single proton within every single atom within every single molecule within every self, we have complete singularity of access to information as well. How did they even start to look at this as a possibility of really being the fabric of reality we live in, because this sounds super weird? Zach Bush:                    What they do is they take two groups of students and they put them on opposite sides of the campus. They gave both groups a very complicated crossword puzzle. They asked the first group to start and they time the length at which they could finish this crossword puzzle. No communication, physically or otherwise, to the other group. The other group had to sit and wait for this team to finish. Zach Bush:                    They finish at 48 minutes. As soon as they finish, they wait I think it was five minutes or 10 minutes. They waited some number of minutes. Then they start the second group to solve the same crossword puzzle. They've done this many times now across different environments and always the second group finishes a few minutes faster than the first group. Kriben Govender:          Wow! Zach Bush:                    Meaning that there's an exchange of knowledge, there's an exchange of information through the experience of the first group traveling through vacuum space in connection to all of those black holes within each of those individuals. Zach Bush:                    That's a test environment on a university campus, but as an entrepreneur who has started a bunch of companies now, I get to bump into a bunch of entrepreneurs and thought leaders around the world now, and I see this happening actually on the macro, macro level, which is once an idea comes up through an inventor, as a new revelation happens, within a few months, I find out that somebody else over there on the other side of the world had the same thought within the same few-week period, and over there there was somebody else that almost had the same thought over there. Zach Bush:                    Knowledge is literally percolating up to the fabric of humanity, which is very hopeful to me, because if we look around, we have a complete desire in regard to our species in that every technological leap forward we have made has accelerated our consumptive behavior. We consume resources faster and faster and faster as a species and we're literally gobbling up the world's resources in regard to food, mineral resources, oil and gas, air itself, fresh water, you name it. We're using up the precious resources on earth and don't have a way to recycle that energy. If we don't change and if we don't break out of the behaviors and technologies that we currently depend on, then we're going to be extinct within roughly the next 60 to 70 years. Kriben Govender:          Wow! Zach Bush:                    That's a daunting and sad scenario. How do we know that? It's because of the current rate of extinction that we have on the planet. We're losing one species to extinction every 20 minutes. Even in this short podcast, we're going to lose two species that may have been even unnamed and undiscovered will disappear from the planet. Over the last 50 years, we've lost 40% of the biodiversity on the planet. We're nearly halfway done with the complete extinction of biology on the planet at the macro level. In [inaudible 00:17:10] years, we expect to collapse completely to the point where human existence becomes unviable on this planet. Zach Bush:                    It's not too much of a coincidence, I believe, that the billionaires around us who built this consumptive environment, the Amazons, the Facebooks, and all the advertisers out there that have built our consumer behavior and capitalized that, they are working on space travel. They're trying to figure out their exit strategy off a planet that is literally collapsing. They are trying to build their own lifeboats to jump off the Titanic because the Titanic already hit the iceberg. Zach Bush:                    Everybody who can see at this macro level because of their, level of influence or whatever it is, can see that everything is not viable. There's not a single sustainable company on the planet right now. With this understanding, they start looking for lifeboats off the planet. Kriben Govender:          Wow! Zach Bush:                    That's another long conversation to a short question of what does it mean to be human? To be human right now is a very, very big opportunity and a very, very big purpose. You showed up here right now. If you're on earth at the moment, you chose to show up. When I say you chose, I believe your soul jumped on into your body and animated you for a purpose at this tipping point of human history. Zach Bush:                    We've been here by the fossil record for 180,000 years and we got 60 years left, and you showed up right now, which means you showed up at the moment that you would have the potential to either be aware and awake and conscious to learn as much as you can and we can from the decline and ultimate disappearance of our species, so that perhaps in the universe we raise consciousness through this awful experience of extinction so that perhaps somewhere out there, life is being created on another planet or otherwise and with the knowledge and experience we have. Zach Bush:                    Either you're here to be conscious and awake to add to the experience of all of the mistakes we've had or you're here with me and everybody else to transform, to transcend, to rise consciousness to the point where we actually can reinvent our relationship to nature, so that we become a synergist, regenerative species rather than a consumptive species. We do have the opportunity to do that together, and I believe it's through the connection like we have here tonight. With the opportunity for human connection unperturbed by advertisers and all the other third-party manipulators, we can solve every problem on the planet by looking straight to nature for the templates of how life happens. Kriben Govender:          That's giving me goosebumps, Dr. Zach. I'm mind-blown. Thank you so much for sharing that wonderful monologue. It was amazing. Now I just wanted to go to sideways a little bit on why are we getting sicker? Zach Bush:                    Yes. This is the perfect next step in some ways because now we've painted the goal: we need to transform. To understand how we're going to get there, we need to understand where we are right at the moment. Over the last 30 years, we've seen the most rapid collapse never imagined. Never imagined. Zach Bush:                    I mean I've talked to a lot of the health experts that built the American healthcare system as it stands today back in the 1970s, and they predicted a lot of things in 1976 about the year 2000. They predicted oil and gas changes. They actually predicted the Internet and, in some ways, they predicted a lot of the technologies that would come along, and they prepared for that in their modeling of how human health in a healthcare system might be supported. Zach Bush:                    What they failed to imagine was the possibility that our total chronic disease burden in this country of the United States would move from 4% to 46% of our children with a chronic disease. 4% of the entire population in the late '60s had a chronic disease. Now 46% of just our children have a chronic disease. Zach Bush:                    There was nobody who could have imagined that level of collapse and there's nobody who prepared for the possibility of that financially or otherwise for our country to prepare us for that. We are now in free fall around the effort to support this. Zach Bush:                    Our entire military budget in the United States is at $680 billion a year roughly. An insane amount of money to spend on defense and trying to kill other people and all kinds of stupid stuff, but it pales in comparison as a number to the $3 trillion a year that we're spending five times more on trying to manage chronic disease, because remember we don't spend much money at all on prevention or health itself. We're spending all of that on disease management. $3 trillion, if you add it all up, we're upwards of $4 trillion between defense and human disease. Zach Bush:                    We're looking at an enormous portion of our gross domestic product going to non-productive aspects of human support. You create jobs, but you don't create productivity through a disease. That reality that we're in right now is being depicted because of this rise of chronic disease. Zach Bush:                    When did that start? It really took off in the 1990s. In 1992, we started to get a few echoes of it in the US. But it wasn't until '96, '98 where we see this extremely rapid rise in neurologic degenerative conditions. In our children, it was attention deficit and autism disorders. In our adults, in the males, it was Parkinson's. In the females, it was Alzheimer's, dementia. All of those conditions, children, women and men in the geriatric phase all started taking off with Parkinson's and Alzheimer's in the late '90s. Zach Bush:                    By the late 2000s, 2008, 2010, we had reached catastrophic levels of autism, for example. We had moved from one in 5,000 children with autism to one in 88 children with autism by 2012. In the next three years, between 2012 and 2015, we would again be one in 46 or one in 48 kids. Then one year later, our current numbers that just came out is one in 36 kids with autism. Just one year later. Zach Bush:                    We're on track right now in the United States to have one in three children on the autism spectrum by 2035. Just 16 years out. The next 16 years is going to determine if we can turn the boat around in this country. If we fail to change the fabric of human health in this country over those 16 years and we continue on our current trajectory, the US will no longer be a global power. It is literally impossible for us to keep up with expenses because the productivity is going to be dropping so fast. Zach Bush:                    If one in three children in a single generation have an autistic condition that's limiting their ability to engage on a productive physical level, then it's going to take two of that generation to take care of that one, just in their health care, just in the maintenance of that, their support and everything else. A whole generation is going to be spending all their money on one disease process, ignore that 80% of the adult population will have cancer by that time, not to mention all the mental health disorders, autoimmune diseases, chronic fatigue, chronic pain, you name all the rest of it. Now you start to see that there will not be a productive society by the mid-2030s in this country. Kriben Govender:          Wow! Zach Bush:                    What's our opportunity? Let's say, worst-case scenario, the US becomes the poster child on what not to do. You guys in Australia have an opportunity to very, very rapidly learn from what we've done and do it differently. We better quickly figure out how did the US manage to create chronic disease epidemics across the brain, across the immune system, across the liver, across the kidneys? How did all of the diseases take off at the same time in the mid-1990s? Zach Bush:                    That, of course, comes down to the smoking gun that my group in my lab had been working on for the last six years, which is ... It's 2019 now, for the last seven years. For the last seven [inaudible 00:25:30] been working on this molecule glyphosate. Glyphosate is the active ingredient in the weed-killer Roundup that's used worldwide on the genetically modified crops, so GMO corn and soybean grown in Australia, alfalfa, canola. All of these crops are now GMO. They've been genetically modified to be able to be sprayed directly with this chemical glyphosate. Zach Bush:                    Glyphosate started its spraying on crops in 1992 in the US with the application on wheat. Within a couple of years of that, we had an epidemic of wheat allergies called celiac disease and gluten-sensitivity. We invented gluten-sensitivity out of the application of glyphosate or Roundup to this gluten-containing wheat. Zach Bush:                    We now spray many of our staple crops, the legumes, the lentils, the beans. So many other things are being sprayed now just like the wheat, not to kill weeds but to actually dry the crop quicker. We use them as a desiccant. That desiccating process means that we're spraying the crop hours or days before harvest, which means that the individual is going to get very high residues of those chemicals. Zach Bush:                    Those aren't genetically modified compounds. In fact, they're trying to kill the plant faster and dry it out. Those aren't GMO'ed. They're simply heirloom grain or a hybridized grain that's being sprayed directly or, in case of the legumes, the same thing. Then there's the genetically modified compounds, the corn, soybean, and everything else that's being sprayed directly with the herbicides. Zach Bush:                    What's happened is water-soluble toxic called glyphosate at such high volumes around the planet, currently 5.5 billion pounds a year being sprayed, all of that being sprayed onto the soils of the planet. Water-soluble means that it doesn't stay on the surface of anything. It immediately gets intercalated or brought into the fruit or the vegetable in all its water content. Your typical fruit or vegetable is 60% to 70% water, just like the human body. It then goes into the water system, gets pulled into the river [inaudible 00:27:30] the oceans. Zach Bush:                    In the United States, we have the Mississippi River. It runs from north to south. The last 90 miles of the Mississippi River are between Baton Rouge and New Orleans, Louisiana. That is now called cancer alley. It has the highest rates of cancer in the entire developed world in the last 90 miles of the Mississippi River. Zach Bush:                    Why is that? I believe it's because 85% to 90% of all the glyphosate sprayed in our rich farmlands is ending up in one water system concentrating throughout the whole system of the Mississippi into that last 90 miles, and it's killing life starting at the microbial level. Zach Bush:                    Glyphosate, as it turns out, has not been patented as a weed-killer. It's been actually patented as an antimicrobial, antibiotic, antifungal, you name it. As that compound hits the microbiome of the soil or the water or the air, we could lose microbiome. As you lose microbiome, you lose the ability to grow larger things, plants, animals, humans, et cetera. Zach Bush:                    With a water-soluble molecule on this planet, it turns out it doesn't stay put in the river or the ocean that it's pouring into. It goes into the air itself. Through evaporation, we end up with 75% of the air around the Mississippi also contaminated with Roundup. We're breathing this compound. It turns out that that ends up in a cloud and now we have 75% of our rainfall contaminated with Roundup. Zach Bush:                    You're starting to get the picture that we're living it, we're breathing it, we're drinking it, we're eating it. One molecule all over the planet. We can follow the chronic diseases around the world in their progression with their adoption of glyphosate and Roundup and GMO cropping and the death of their soils. Zach Bush:                    For you guys in Australia, you were about 15 years behind us. We really took off in the US really aggressively with the spraying of this in early 1992, but it's really '96 that everything really launched. Zach Bush:                    Glyphosate as a compound came off patent in 2007 for taking over the vast majority of the production of generic glyphosate and dumping that into the global marketplace. Unfortunately, it had an extremely adverse effect on Australia because you guys had a free trade agreement with China that continues today, which means you were pennies on the dollar of glyphosate, which could be sprayed around your lands all over the place. Zach Bush:                    It wasn't just your farmers. Your homeowners are spraying it in their yards. Your municipal systems, if you're anything like [inaudible 00:29:59] along our roadways, along our utility lines, we're using it as a broad-spectrum killer of weeds all over the place, schoolyards. You go on down the list. Zach Bush:                    What do we see happening on the public health level, in the United States we have one in 10 children now with asthma, which we can track directly back to a small intestine injury from Roundup as it does its damage along the gut lining. If we look at in comparison, you guys had a very low level of childhood asthma right up until 2008, 2009, and then started rising. Zach Bush:                    You guys are actually seeing a faster rise in your children than even in the United States, and you're now one in four children with asthma. You guys are having a chronic disease epidemic that's going to be even probably out of proportion to the US if things don't change. Over the next 20 years, it's not going to be asthma that's going to cripple your economy. It's actually going to be the cancer and the degenerative neurologic conditions in your adult population that are going to cripple your economy. Zach Bush:                    You guys have a national healthcare system which is going to be paying every dollar of expense to manage this chronic disease epidemic as it takes off. If I were within your government or an advisor to your government, I would simply take all of our public health data and its trajectories, match you guys up there, and say, "Okay. Now we can predict what's going to happen five years out, 10 years out, and 20 years out if we don't change things in Australia." Zach Bush:                    One of the very fortunate things that you guys have, I think, is there is an intrepidness about the Australian people that is in conflict right now with the extreme bureaucratic tendencies of the government. The Australian government is even more bureaucratic than the US government in regard to things like drug oversights and a lot of health oversight and regulations around doctors and medical care and all of that. You guys are bumping into an intense regulatory, bureaucratic environment. Zach Bush:                    What I'd do is I'd work with Australian farmers and everything else. I'm just more and more convinced that you guys have, at the people level, an extreme tenacity and extreme tendency to have a revolutionary mindset. I think that that could really change technology fast in the farming industry quickly. Zach Bush:                    We're trying to step this up. Every dollar that we make out of my biotech company that's made by Restore, which is the [inaudible 00:32:28] from soil that we might talk about, every dollar there, we're flowing back into other companies, including we've started a non-profit now called Planet Earth Home, and Planet Earth Home is really working to show farmers that they really are the foundation for the future of our species. Zach Bush:                    If they change behavior and they start working synergistically to create a regenerative farm and soil management system, they can be the ones to revolutionize American or Australian health rather than the doctors who are always going to be just throwing Band-Aids on the problem. That's our excitement is, yeah, we have a lot of science that has flowed out of understanding human health out of our Restore products, but now we can reapply that science to the farming industry to educate those farmers why they may need to make this very rapid transition to regenerative agriculture. Kriben Govender:          [inaudible 00:33:17] pause for a minute just to dig in a little bit deeper. If there's any Australian farmers listening to this podcast, what are some of the practices they could be adopting to address this problem that we're facing in the world? Zach Bush:                    In a nutshell, I mean there's a very long answer that I'll try to avoid for that, just because I don't want to take up the next three hours for that response. I've got links at the end to our nonprofit where they can get more information. But the short answer is carbon. Farmers are trained to augment their soils and plant growth with nitrogen and phosphorus and potassium. Zach Bush:                    NPK fertilizers really started in the 1960s, coming out of the war environment. Post-World War II, there was a glut of oil. They were looking for other ways in which to use the oil and petroleum industry, and so they redirected from fuel to oil-based or petroleum-based fertilizers for soils, rich in nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. Zach Bush:                    They're so effective at creating a green plant that this movement of NPK fertilizers became known as the Green Revolution. We were still coming out of the Dust Bowl where we had killed all of our topsoil in the US, and so we were having huge loss of topsoil across the whole country from the 1930s onward. By the 1950s, we were starting to reverse that by getting a lot more plants growing because of NPK fertilizers. Zach Bush:                    The thing that we didn't understand then, and to this day farmers are not taught, is that if you pour nitrogen into soil without an adequate offset of carbon, you actually speed the depletion of carbon molecules out of the soil. With the [inaudible 00:34:59], you actually lose the fabric of the integrity of the plant. You lose its immune system, you lose the integrity of its root system. You get a very vulnerable plant, which means it's maybe prone to pests. Both weeds and bugs are likely to start to attack that crop. Zach Bush:                    Over and over again, we see that invasive weed species and all of this are coming in in an effort to increase carbon content in the soil, and yet the farmer's been trained to either kill that weed or stop it before it can get there by overtilling their ground, and in so doing, they're blocking the ability of Mother Nature to get the carbon to offset all of this nitrogen that they're pouring into the soil, and by so doing, they're literally killing their soil. Zach Bush:                    In a nutshell, you need to stop spraying nitrogen. You need to start to rely on your weeds and your intelligent ecosystems to start bringing an equal balance of nitrogen and phosphorus and carbon back in. You need to stop tilling the ground. Tilling kills the microbiome and, importantly, the mycorrhizae and the mycology of the soil, which, of course, blocks the ability of the soil to bring carbon out of the air. Zach Bush:                    Both by eliminating the weeds and killing the ability to reabsorb carbon through the mycelial bed, we eliminate the recycling capacity of the planet and we start to lose topsoil very quickly. As a farmer, you need to stop tilling. Instead of tilling the soil to get rid of weeds, you're going to start rolling. Zach Bush:                    There's a very simple implement. It's called a crimper roller. Very cheap compared to a combine or a disker. The small ones are about $4,000 to $6,000, used. The larger ones, especially brand new, can be up to a couple hundred thousand dollars. But per size of the equipment for the scale of your land, you're looking at very much less than you would for an equivalent disker or tilling equipment. Cheaper to implement and much more safe for the mycology. You actually preserve the soil architecture with a roller crimper. Instead of trying to disk the soil or till it all up to kill the weeds, you simply roll the weeds. Zach Bush:                    This creates an armor on top of the soil so that when it rains, you don't wash your topsoil off, and it creates all that carbon content on top of the soil that will be reintegrated into the matrix, so that your soil can handle the nitrogen that will come from those beneficial weeds and the rest. Zach Bush:                    There are such a thing as beneficial weeds. I would say every single weed on your property is there on purpose. It's trying to serve some part of nature to help recover your farmland. Zach Bush:                    Let the weeds be there. If you let them do their whole cycle, roll them and crimp them at the end of their life cycle, you'll find out the very next year you have fewer weeds and they're different character of weeds. They're now doing their purpose in their restorative capacity, and you roll those the next year. Zach Bush:                    If you do this repetitively, you're going to start growing seeds that are going to come up out of the seed bank that's already in your fossilized aspects of your soil. 200, 300, 400-year old seeds are going to start to grow again, which means you're going to recover prairie land that is completely devoid of anything we would think of as an invasive weed. It's actually bringing extremely rich topsoil-building capacity back to your farm. Zach Bush:                    You're going to start rotating, of course, your pack animals. Whether you're using cattle or sheep ... In Western Australia, obviously most of it is sheep, but you'll use the sheep or the hoofed animal as your processing plant that moves from paddock to paddock around your land, and it will start with regenerating the seed bank and working with this. Zach Bush:                    We usually will use a combination of allow the weeds and put in a cover crop. We want about 16 species minimum as your cover crop. You don't want to do a monoculture with your cover crop. Seed 16 to 30 species of good, diverse cover crop and let the weeds grow up within that as needed. Then roll and crimp that. You can have a seed drill running right behind. Zach Bush:                    If you push your roller crimper on your tractor, you can pull your seed drill on the back and, with one pass, you'll wipe out seeds and you'll get your crop in the ground. It'll come up within 14 days, and you've got yourself a one-pass system. You've saved yourself fuel, you haven't disrupted the soil, and you've sprayed zero chemicals. Zach Bush:                    This is the process that we're teaching now is a regenerative agriculture process based around rapid transition of livestock, if you're utilizing livestock in your environment. If there is no livestock, then its roller crimping. If you have good livestock management, you don't even need a roller crimper. The animals will do it for you. Livestock, roller crimpers, multi-species cover crops, and then seed drills behind that. That's your [inaudible 00:39:38]. Kriben Govender:          That's wonderful, Dr. Bush. I think that'll be very insightful for farmers. What we will do is we'll put some links into the show notes to direct people to your organizations, where they can find more information. Really appreciate you sharing that. Now let's talk about leaky gut. What is leaky gut and how do we fix it? Zach Bush:                    Very good. I was pointing to the year 1992, with the advent of glyphosate spraying on wheat, and 1996 on all of our staple crops. How did that correlate with chronic disease? Two forms. Number one, we kill the microbiome. It's an antibiotic. You start to kill the microbiome. If you lose the microbiome, you become vulnerable at the gut layer and the immune system that sits right behind that, there are lots of different diseases. Zach Bush:                    What is the process of that or the mechanism by which that vulnerability happens is what we uncovered in 2012. In 2012, in my nutrition center, I was seeing people get worse on health food. I couldn't figure out why kale and Brussels sprouts and all these superfoods were actually making people more inflamed and sicker. Zach Bush:                    It turns out that they had this thing called leaky gut. With leaky gut, you lose the integrity of the gatekeepers or the barrier system of your immune system to the outside world. Your body is made up of 70 trillion cells, and many billions of those cells are the epithelial lining that runs from your nasal sinuses, esophagus, stomach, small intestine, colon, and rectum. That whole gut environment covers more than two tennis courts in surface area. Massive, massive exposure to the outside world. Zach Bush:                    That's your most important ground zero of your exposure, your self-identity as a human. What does it mean to be human? An intact, intelligent barrier system of the gut. The skin, in comparison, is only one and a half square meters. One and a half square meters versus two tennis courts, you can see how much more, 85% to 90% more surface area in your gut than your skin. Zach Bush:                    Who is human is that which is wrapped within this intelligent barrier system. The billions of cells that make up those two tennis courts in surface area are called epithelial cells. They're all bonded together by these little proteins that look like Velcro. It's called tight junctions. As the glyphosate hits the gut membrane, the tight junctions fall apart and dissolves the tight Junction. Zach Bush:                    It's not the first time in history that humans have been creating the opportunity for gut leak. It turns out that the oldest medicine on earth, I would argue, is alcohol. That medicine has obviously been used as a drug, both medically as well as recreationally. But it turns out alcohol was probably our first leaky gut injury. We damage tight junctions with alcohol. Zach Bush:                    Alcohol and glyphosate and other pharmaceutical compounds like ibuprofen, non-steroidal anti-inflammatories, all of the constipation medicines, they all damage tight junctions to create leaky gut. Once you've damaged all the Velcro, you no longer have an intelligent barrier that keep that stuff out, bring this stuff in, this should come this way. We need water, we need nutrients, but we don't need insoluble fibers. We don't need plastic. We don't need all the junk in our food, and so that intelligent barrier starts to break apart. Zach Bush:                    There's many herbicides and pesticides out there. For example, the typical red wine made in the United States has 64 different chemicals that are pesticides and herbicides. Glyphosate is far from our only problem. Zach Bush:                    Why do I spend so much time saying this is our biggest problem? Because it is the one chemical that has that direct effect of breaking apart the front barrier system. Sorry for the vibrational noise. Zach Bush:                    The opportunity there for the glyphosate to open up the tight junctions in the gut, that is what then is, I would say, the gatekeeper drug, if you will, that then opens up the toxicity of all the other chemicals that are going to come behind it, because you no longer have an intelligent barrier system. I think glyphosate really is public enemy number one here globally because of its ability to erode this barrier system, cause the leaky gut. Zach Bush:                    Now that's horrible news. That's bad news chemical right there. But it's important to point out that, as we were talking earlier about consciousness and psychology, it turns out that the gut barrier is not the only thing held together with tight junctions. The same proteins hold together your entire blood vessel tree. All of the capillaries, the blood vessels are made of endothelial cells held together by the same tight junctions. Your kidney tubules that are responsible for detoxing your body, held together by the same tight junctions. Zach Bush:                    Then, very importantly, your blood-brain barrier. That barrier that would protect your central and peripheral nervous system as the holy of holies is also made of the same tight junctions. We have just now proved this out. We're talking about this for years, but we've just proved it in our labs by growing blood-brain barrier in conjunction with gut epithelial, that if you injure the gut with a glyphosate injury, you immediately get a loss of the blood-brain barrier as well. With one fell swoop, you're grading leaky gut, leaky blood vessels, leaky kidneys, and leaky brain. Kriben Govender:          Wow! Zach Bush:                    It's one chemical right now that's eroding not just human self-identity, but the self- identity of these different organ compartments that are supposed to be carefully regulated. What's in your bloodstream should not be what's in your brain. Zach Bush:                    If it does become unregulated, your brain is going to start to have a lot more chronic inflammation, the central nervous system, immune system gets easily overwhelmed by a bunch of stuff it should have never dealt with, and you start to get chronic inflammatory changes in the central nervous system and the peripheral nervous system. You develop chronic fatigue, brain fog, poor sleep quality, sex drive collapses, and endocrine dysregulation, low testosterone, low estrogen levels, you get premature menopause, you get premature pubarche or puberty in the children. Instead of going through it at 13, these girls are going through puberty at six years old now. Kriben Govender:          Wow! Zach Bush:                    We have this complete breakdown in the endocrine system because the blood-brain barrier has also dissolved. It's a terrifying situation that we decided to create a food chain around a single chemical that would destroy self-identity and organ identity throughout the system. Kriben Govender:          Wow! It's definitely a huge concern. Let's say, going on to Terrahydrite ... Did I say that correctly? Zach Bush:                    Uh-huh. Kriben Govender:          What is it and how did you discover it? Why is it potentially a benefit? Zach Bush:                    Perfect. Terrahydrite is a word that we've coined. We've termed in 'Terra', meaning earth there in Latin there. You've got earth and an interaction between oxygen and hydrogen. My discovery in 2012 in the soil science was that we found a bunch of molecules that looked similar to the chemotherapy I used to make. Zach Bush:                    Since 4,000-year-old Chinese medicine, we've been looking to herbs and plants as our medicinal source. Suddenly, in a single few minutes in my clinic, when somebody brought in the soil science paper and is flipping through it and found this molecule, the idea that there could be medicine in soil was a revolution in my mind. Zach Bush:                    But most importantly, when we found out that molecule was being made by bacteria and fungi, it finally closed the loop on my cancer research, and UCSF, UCSD, many universities around the world, that we're starting to find out that if you're missing certain bacteria, you get prone to cancer of this type. If you miss these bacteria, you get breast cancer. You lose these bacteria, you get colon cancer. You lose these bacteria, you get prostate cancer. Zach Bush:                    We knew these correlations, but we couldn't figure out why or how the bacteria could possibly be affecting in such a predictable fashion the outcomes of the big human organism. The discovery of these molecules suddenly answered that because each species of bacteria and fungi makes a subset, different subset, of these carbon molecules, each one looking different with different function. Zach Bush:                    We call them carbon snowflakes. Everybody is relatively familiar with the concept that each snowflake looks different at the crystal level and everything else, all H2O, but organized in different three-dimensional structures, they have different features. The carbon snowflakes made by the bacteria and fungi, each species contributing to this fluent communication [inaudible 00:48:00], if you lose communication here in this aspect of Terrahydrite, then we start to become prone to dysfunction over here. Zach Bush:                    That's the journey into Terrahydrite. Terrahydrite is a term for a large family, many millions of different variants of carbon snowflakes made by bacteria and fungi, and that's the active ingredient that would go on to become our supplement line called Restore. What you're taking in Restore is literally a supplement that intends to do nothing to your body. It's the first supplement, I think, that really tries to do nothing. Zach Bush:                    The reason why it's trying to do nothing is because it's much different than a vitamin A or alpha-lipoic acid or curcumin or any of these other compounds that we think of as having medicinal features. All of those go on to bind to some sort of receptor, and a receptor that goes on to change genetic behavior of the thing. It might be an anti-inflammatory, it may up-regulate antioxidants, it may have all kinds of important medicinal features. Zach Bush:                    Restore is much different. It has no molecule within it that's trying to bind a cell receptor. Instead, it's working with this oxygen, hydrogen, this hydrite component of the carbon molecule that's exchanging information over distances. You can think of Restore as a liquid circuit board, a liquid circuit board that spreads across the cellular environment to take information from one cell and passage it to a distant cell. Zach Bush:                    In this way it functions as the wireless communication network of the whole body. When you take Restore, you might experience many different things. If you're super healthy, you may not notice much because you're going to simply start aging a little slower. What does it feel like to age slower? It feels a lot like you did yesterday, and that's the goal. If you keep feeling like yesterday, you're not going to age. Zach Bush:                    Sometimes the best way to find out is Terrahydrite working or not is take it for three or six months and then stop it, because you're going to suddenly catch up with your aging process and you're really like, "Oh, I did feel six months younger in that six months. I just didn't notice it because it felt a lot like yesterday." It can be interesting to watch that slowing of the aging process. Zach Bush:                    That's a heady thing to say, we figured out how to slow aging. In fact, aging is not complicated. Aging is literally 50% of it is dehydration inside the cell, which results from leaky gut, leaky blood vessels, leaky kidneys, and the second 50% of the aging process is a loss of this communication across cell structures. Zach Bush:                    With one compound made by bacteria and fungi, you're fixing the leak, improving hydration, and bringing the communication network back into play. That's, in a nutshell, what is Terrahydrite and what is Restore. Kriben Govender:          That's awesome. We're pretty much coming up to time, but we've got a couple of questions from our community. We have a community, a Facebook group of about ... It's approaching 10,000 people now. Our post says, "[inaudible 00:50:59] we've got Dr. Bush coming on. Send me your questions." We'll just rapid-fire these questions. Kriben Govender:          There was a question specifically, and I think you might have tackled this during the discussion, but why are we seeing a rise in autoimmune disease? That's the part one to the question. Part two is why is that once you get autoimmune disease, you tend to have [crosstalk 00:51:31]- Zach Bush:                    [crosstalk 00:51:31]. Kriben Govender:          ... on top of it? Zach Bush:                    Great question. We talked about leaky gut. 60% to 70% of your immune system by volume and 80% of the antibody production that's done in your whole body is done in the one or two millimeters behind the gut membrane. I'd mentioned this as your frontline of defense. You have two tennis courts. You start to very get leaky gut, your immune system lining behind that is now getting exposed to the whole world. Zach Bush:                    Autoimmune disease develops when you've overwhelmed the immune system and stimulated it with a bunch of foreign material. For every single fiber, protein molecule that's foreign to your body that flows through that leaky gut, your immune system has to mount a response, and it begins with a T-cell, which is a type of white blood cell, responding to that protein or that foreign material. Zach Bush:                    The T-cell, once activated, recognizing a foreign material, will call in a B-cell, another type of immune cell. The B-cell becomes the manufacturing plant for the antibody needed to attack that foreign material. The B-cells start cranking out throughout the whole gut lining to attack the outside world that's flowing through this unregulated barrier system. Zach Bush:                    What happens with an autoimmune disease is that sooner or later it's literally a roulette wheel: you make enough antibodies to enough different protein structure. Sooner or later, one of the proteins in your body is going to be close enough in structure to that foreign material that the antibodies from your B-cell is going to cross-react with your own tissue. Zach Bush:                    In rheumatoid arthritis, you're attacking the supportive joint space, the surfaces of the joints. In the case of Hashimoto's or thyroid disease, which is the number one most common autoimmune disease right now in the world, it's the thyroid that cross-reacts. Type I diabetes, it's a specific cell within the pancreas. Adrenal insufficiency is a specific adrenal cell getting knocked out. Celiac disease, a specific protein within the gut lining. All of these proteins start to cross-react with the B-cell manufacturing system; you end up with autoimmune disease. Zach Bush:                    Because the pathophysiology of one autoimmune disease is caused by all this overwhelm and it's a roulette wheel, sooner or later you're going to get one, now you're just as likely to get two or three or four autoimmune diseases over time because, again, the same pathophysiology is there for the thyroid disease versus type I diabetes versus all the rest. It's an open gate. The leaky gut is the beginning of an autoimmune process. Chronic stimulation of those B-cells is the conclusion of it. Kriben Govender:          That's awesome. That's an amazing explanation to why we're facing these epidemic of this [inaudible 00:54:13] inflammatory situation. The next question is from what I've read ... In fact, correct me if I'm wrong ... that you're very much driven by your children and I guess wanting to h

Episode 42 of The Teaching Space Podcast is an interview with Kate O’Sullivan discussing how we can be more inclusive. Podcast Episode 42 Transcript Hello, and welcome to The Teaching Space Podcast. It's Martine here, thank you so much for joining me. Today I am joined by a guest on the show. It's my great pleasure to introduce you to Kate O'Sullivan. Rather than me try to reveal the very, very large number of layers to Kate and all the amazing things she does, I'm going to ask her to introduce herself to you. Martine: So hello Kate, welcome to the show! Kate: Hello Martine, thanks for having me. Martine: It's my pleasure, tell us about you. Kate: Okay- Martine: That's a huge question. That's a massive question. Kate: Okay let's see if I can do it because I always go blank the minute we ask people this don't you. Tell me about yourself. So yes I am Kate. I currently am living in Edinburgh. It is freezing, we had our first frost here today. I have a daughter and a girlfriend and I'm self-employed as a writer, kind of broadcaster and photographer. And my thing is creating online and journalism. And I tend to cover a lot of topics around the area of sort intersectionality, identity, feminism, LGBT+ issues, social justice and kind of looking at opening up conversations that can be quite simple but also quite challenging. You know those ones when you start having a conversation perhaps if you're at a dinner party or something and you're chatting someone and suddenly find yourself in that conversation and think, "I am out of my depth here." It tends to be those that I lean in towards, because I think a lot of us struggle with those and I think particularly with the political climate and so many changes happening around social policy, both home and abroad at the moment, there's a lot of people who are suddenly finding themselves realising that they have kind of almost blank spaces in their knowledge about other people and the communities and some of these policies that are changing. I think it's quite an anxiety-provoking state for people, where they feel like they've failed in some way or they feel that maybe they're ignorant in some way. Or it can actually make us feel quite defensive. We can often sort of really feel like "well I'm a good person. I'm not racist. I'm not homophobic." And we can't always address sometimes the fact that a lot of these things crop up because that's the way we've been conditioned. So I think I'm trying to host conversations and write articles about just making these things explicit, so we can see them and perhaps not feel so afraid to have conversations. That's kind of what I'm doing, which is quite a big aim and quite a broad aim. And also a very exact and minute aim all at once, is how I feel. Martine: Multi-layered, definitely multi-layered. In some respects, education is at the heart of what you're trying to do by the sounds of things because you eluded to the fact that there's quite a lot of fear around saying the wrong thing in regard to certain topics. And what you're trying to do, from what I understand, is kind of equip people with what they need to get rid of some of that fear. Would that be fair to say? Kate: Yeah. I think it's sort of really balancing that line between personal growth to get yourself in sort of a confident place and to acknowledge that you're not going to know everything. And that you know, particularly when you're talking about systems of oppression, they're not ... they're not always obvious. It's not as simple as somebody used a really bad word against this person, and that makes them racist. It can be quite layered and very institutional. And we're all subject to those. And sometimes it's really hard to see as a result. So I think it's that kind of personal growth that sort of not feeling bad about that but feeling empowered to address it. But then at the same time there's kind of that real much more community focus of are you being inclusive? Are you getting out of your bubble? Are you thinking about other people? And are you working emphatically with people? And I think that's the word that kind of really has to drive so much of these conversations, is the word empathy. Because it's, that's such a skill that we, it's really hard to teach and learn. But it's so crucial I think to so many of these conversations going a lot easier and smoother I think. Martine: That's such an important word. And actually one of the reasons for this conversation we're having, just to give you a little bit of background, I'm gonna steal the word empathy and take it. Its mine now. Take it to my initial teacher training students. Because part of my sort of day job is to help people who are interested in perhaps making a move into teaching. Helping them kinda get ready for making that move. So we do, essentially an initial teacher training program targeted at people interested in post-16 education and adult education as well. And we do lots of stuff on equality and diversity. I mean, it really is the backbone to a qualification which is fantastic and right and essential. But, I do sometimes feel certainly from the material that I use to deliver my topic that there is a tendency to be a bit tokenistic, you know. I mean an appalling example would be, so if you're going to do a PowerPoint presentation in your session then make sure you have at least one black person, one person in a wheelchair, etc, etc. and it's just awful. It's so tokenistic and I see that quite a lot and I really want to see some change there. I'm not entirely sure where to start. Kate: Yeah. I think that's where a lot of people are as well. And I think there's a lot of people who are trying with the best will in the world and sometimes that is the start. I'm fairly sure that's how I started. It was being particularly aware as a photographer saying "oh, we don't have a single model that looks like X, Y or Z." You know, whether it's her skin tone, whether it's her age, whether it was whether she was able bodied, whether they were cis-gendered. You know, I think that's probably how most people start, because they're sort of aware that we've been sort of perpetuating an idea that is a very homogeneous looking resource quite often. You know it's often a very white, very straight, very able bodied, very cis-gendered, very affluent quite often. You know working class narratives are often only presented as a tragedy. Particularly when it comes to literature. I mean it's quite exhausting sometimes, what you have to draw from. I really feel that as a sort of literature graduate. Sometimes you just think God, the only things I sort of knew where the things like cares where it was just like gloom, doom and women were abused. You know, that was kind of the only narrative you could have if you were working class. So I think you know, I think once you're at that stage where you're sort of aware of it, it can be very hard because you look up and realise that well I live in a bubble. And then we start saying things like "well I live in a very undiverse area," or "the resources I have are not very diverse," as if these things are easy to overcome. Of course you are. That is that institutional layering of oppression. That is how you know, we have black girls that grow up thinking that white dolls are much more, attractive or better behaved. You know, there's a study that's been done over 40 years of young children playing with black versus white dolls. And sure enough, every single child chooses the white doll as the good doll. The white, the beautiful doll. The white doll who's loved more. Because that is a message that's come through across all media. You know all their lives up to that point, these children are five. They do it again at six, seven, eight, nine and ten. It's one of those, to watch the videos kinda like one of those you know ... having to sort of you know, swallow hard kind of moments when you really realise what you're up against. So then, it's sort of then, you realise that it's something, you have to really commit to inclusion. And it's something that, you're right, it can get tokenistic. And sometimes it's about really thinking about things. So the example I used, the one to do with photography is like oh we don't have a model that looks like our community. Well that's great. But of course the other side of that is I cannot just say "oh, I've ticked that box. I've put this model in front. I've put a speechless, voiceless woman on the cover of something. Great. Job done." Because, am I hiring people who are doing the writing? Am I using things like copy editors and all these different steps in the process. And that's when you start moving beyond a sort of tokenism because it's intrinsic. You’re sort of opening the door and saying “I am not going to be a gatekeeper here”. And in the classroom that would be things like, why do sourcing materials, or say talking to the community that surrounds you. Who can we see? Who can we use? Who is coming in and doing work experience? Who's being hired? Who am I referring to if I'm using a YouTube resource? You know, that sort of layering. And you know, we're currently looking at some really depressing statistics around how much representation there is. You know, you're looking as little as one percent for some resources aimed young people of being B.A.M.E characters and that's really miserable. And as a result, it can't be just one character suddenly turns up. We are gonna have to make a wholehearted effort to say it's not good enough. 50% of my curriculum needs to be representative. And it doesn't matter if 50% of my classroom doesn't look like that because this is about the young people in front of me being aware that this an issue. But also being aware that when they go forward, that's what they should be doing. Because perhaps they will be in an environment where 50% of their community looks like that. It's sort of, we need to sometimes stop this "well our school isn't a very diverse school so we don't need to address that." What you've said to all those children in front of you is that it's not our responsibility to address inclusion and diversity or racism or homophobia or any of these things because it doesn't effect our community. It affects everybody. And that becomes a kind of, we use the term sort of white supremacy around those kind of ideas because you are perpetuating a system that continues. That you benefit from. Whether we like it or not. I get better treatment as a white skinned woman. And that is a privilege that I enjoy. So when I address anything when I'm a speaker at an event, then I always ask who else is involved. Who's hired behind the scenes? What's your marketing material like? Is one of the first questions I ask, because I really see that as my responsibility. I've done a lot of work with events who've suddenly looked up and "oh we have not done enough on this." Like great, I can make these suggestions, I know some amazing people. It can be that small or that big a gesture. Martine: I can really relate to what you say about people's response of "I don't live in a particularly culturally diverse place," because I live in Guernsey. It's a tiny, weeny island of 60 odd thousand people. And it is a default response. And I don't mean to criticise my fellow Guerns but it is something that I hear quite a bit. And as you rightly point out, that means we have to work even harder to have this conversation and do this work, and do this research and just make it intrinsic. As you pointed out, and that's so important. It is difficult for trainee teachers to know where to start. And you know I didn't want to sound negative about the tokenistic approach earlier, in so far as everyone's gotta start somewhere. And it's about awareness. And I get that. But it's about the next step is elevating it. Quite often, what I've done in the past is with my trainee teachers I've said, “you can start by doing this tokenistic approach, but what next? You tell me. Is it okay? Why is it not okay?” And we end up having a really interesting discussion about taking it that next level. What I'd really like to think about, if this is okay with you Kate, is some practical steps that trainee teachers can take in order to make sure their learning environment is really properly inclusive. What'd you reckon? What can they start by doing? Kate: I think there's certain terms that would be really helpful to get familiar with. Because once we are okay with certain terms, and what they mean, we don't have to fear them in our environment. Things like the fact that I said white supremacy. For a lot of people I can imagine they absolutely hate hearing that expression. It's a very normal expression that we need to normalise and say we live in a culture right now that values white skin. That has white values and that is absolutely institutional. There are fantastic folks out there. Reni Eddo-Lodge did 'Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race.' She has a series of free podcasts attached to the book. And it's an audio book as well. So in terms of accessibility there's some great stuff that you don't have to buy the book in order to sort of understand the concept. And you know you've got audio as well, which helps for anybody that has access issues. And I think she really sort of broke that down, particularly in the UK. There's 'So You Want to Talk About Race,' which is this US version of in terms of you've got sort of a more international kind of background. It sometimes helps. But I think once you sort of got to terms with that idea, understanding words like privilege and what that means it can be very very hard and can really get people's backs up to get this idea across. And it's something that really needs to be got across to young people who are gonna go and vote soon. They are part of the next generation that's gonna be shaping policy. And understanding that we don't all have the same starting blocks in life makes an enormous difference to how you go forward in presenting material when you're teaching. And how what you expect of your students as well. So a really sort of basic way of understanding it is if you are white, if you are able bodied, neuro-typical, you have a reasonable, you're sort of within that body mass index that's considered healthy, rather than overweight, you are straight, you are cis-gendered. All these things kind of add up. Means that you will have a slightly better start than somebody who does not present like that. And it means that your work will go harder, no one's denying that you’re not working hard but the privilege comes in when your starting block just is so much further along. There's so many people, that just putting their name onto a CV immediately it takes in something into that interview, if it even gets to that stage. And there's a lot of research about people changing their names in order to get to an interview. And what happens at that stage. So we've got privilege. We got white supremacy. And you know, terms that just strike fear. Understanding some of those can really change the way we go about finding resources, the way we talk to people and the way we encourage the young people that we're working with. Because, as I said, it's not necessarily just that we're representing them sometimes and showing them what it means to be seen. I mean it would've made a huge difference to me as a 16 year old to have seen a better representation of the LGBT+ community. I grew up during Section 28 which was the really homophobic piece of policy that was put in by the Tory government that basically forbid any encouragement of a homosexual lifestyle. It meant that there was no resources. And it’s now just not there. It takes a long time to put those things in place. And to put teacher training in place. That we can be more inclusive in our approaches. That it just is there, it's just seen whereas that didn't exist for me. So I think that I would really encourage people to have a look at that. Another thing that people get really hung up about is well, how do I do it because I'm a white woman? And what do I do when I want to talk about or you know, reference something? And I think this is educational but how do I know that I'm not stepping on toes? It's perhaps looking at the term cultural appropriation or cultural misappropriation. And as a sort of a primer to it, the idea is that we are using something from a culture and we've removed the people from it. So it might be something like, I have a background in primary education, I have done post-16 because I did special ed. But it would be things that you just have a lot of primary classes. You'd have like little teepees as like reading corners. That's great, but the teepee actually has a really strong cultural and spiritual purpose for indigenous community. And we've removed the people from that. So perhaps it isn't appropriate that we've put that in our very white colonial classrooms. And we've removed any kind of reference to it. And we can't say "oh well it's educational. It's important they see a teepee," if we’ve taken all the references around it that actually make it important and an educational or appreciative tool. So I think the first step I really think is just getting comfortable with these terms that can often just make us really pull back. And perhaps not put things in for fear of getting it wrong. And perhaps or we just like dig in our heels you know. I'm not a racist person. You know, I'm not homophobic. You know as somebody who only really came out very late in life. You know it's only in my thirties that I started to question these feelings that I had. That's internalised homophobia. If I can be homophobic of myself, I'm fairly sure straight people can homophobic, you know. We right need to sort tie ourselves in knots at this idea of I am too good a person to let this happen. We all do it. We all make mistakes. And I do it all the time. And it's really important at those times, we don't double down. If you get feedback from within our communities and our classroom. If we look at our materials and think, "oh wow this is very colonial, this geography topic I'm doing," or you know, whatever it is. Don't double down. Think, okay, what is my next step? Sit with that discomfort. And I think that is the kind of foundation that then will really help you go about looking for those resources. And asking around and talking in a way that you feel you can choose the right language. You're not bulldozing up to somebody. Because it's no one's job to educate you. You know, you're not walking up to the South Asian woman and you know saying, “I really need to be more inclusive, can you tell me about this experience?” Let's pull back from that. But it does mean that I'm really aware of this and I'm glad you're here. Would you be interested in, and I'm really aware of my privileges. Just changes the emphasis of the conversation that you're trying to have. And also, you know, dealing with the reaction of something. This is exhausting. I don't want to have this conversation. And not being upset by that but understanding for that person, they're living with that identity every day. So I think, that would my biggest advice. Rather than go to this resource and it'll teach you how to do it. Or read this thing and you will be a better person. I don't think there is a thing that's going to fix it. But I do think working on ourselves and those hangups and where our bias starts and ends is possibly the best start ever. Martine: I'd really like to ask you about your school experience. Cast your mind back. It's not that long ago- Kate: It was. That's the sad thing, it was. Martine: I think we're a similar age actually. I think so- Kate: You're thinking it's not that long, and you'll have a goodness when you see it in black and white, right? Martine: Absolutely. So cast your mind back. From an equality and diversity and inclusion perspective, is there something that you felt could've been done a lot better when you were in school? Kate: Yeah. I think I was very lucky in a lot of ways that I had, we had a lot of student teachers at my high school. And then again at my college. That meant that not that somebody was sort of a more mature, sort of more experienced wasn't capable of, but we definitely had these student teachers who were really keen to kind of make things very relatable and be a lot more hands on. And they weren't as perhaps, frightened of topics that were seeing policy change. So as I said, I was a child of Section 28 and it was completely forbidden for about I think it was almost two decades to even touch on a topic that related to homosexual experience. So for a lot of teachers, they never had any training or background other than you will lose your job if you discuss this. And for some people that was kind of a relief because it didn't relate to their experience, they wouldn't put themselves in a position that they felt uncomfortable with. But for some people obviously, they really felt that they needed to talk to young people. Because they understood what it is to grow up with that stigma. And so a lot of the time we sort of had this, in some ways I can, immediately spring to mind we had this great science teacher, she was our chemistry teacher. And our biology teacher was sick right during our sex education syllabus. Which she was like, "oh great I noticed how you timed that." And she made a really big joke of it. And she was really young. And she was like "okay take advantage of the fact that you have a young teacher and see how you can make her blush." Was kinda of her approach, which was amazing. And it took a lot of the shame out of that conversation. Because I think particularly I think for sort of young people sort of ... I haven't quite seen it in my daughter yet, she's really young but I'm seeing the beginnings of that kind of shame response. Our bodies are something that is uncomfortable to talk about, or to be visible. And there's certain ways you behave. And you know things that are desirable and not desirable and that's the end of discussion. And I think that can be really limiting for young people. And it can be very dangerous. When we start talking about healthy relationships. Healthy relationships with our bodies. Healthy relationships with each other. And before we even get onto those, you know the topic of intercourse. So I think in some ways I was very lucky that that shame was removed. And I felt very at ease as a result. But for me, I have grown up in a family that their attitude… we had a friend whose daughter was a lesbian and I can remember family members saying like it was this huge tragedy. Well she'll never have children. It's just awful. And they were trying to be really accepting like, oh we don't have a problem with her but gosh could you imagine having a daughter who'll never have children. Which of course is fundamentally untrue. It's just not true. And yet, that was the thing that struck me more than anything. And I buried my feelings. To me that was, I can really pinpoint that oh, this is not okay the way I feel about girls. And I hadn't really explored very much but explored very little. And up to me I just didn't see, well you can be attracted to boys and girls and sexuality is fluid, no? Oh no, it's really not. Okay. We don't do that. And because it was completely lacking in school, there was no one to correct me anyway. You know, all the sex education materials that we looked at were you know, there is a man, there is a woman. They have sex. A baby arrives. They raise it together. I mean, that's just erasing a ton of experience from single parent families, to IFV, to, there's so many things. And of course, they were all white. They were often in the 70’s porn kinda thing. The guy often had like a mustache. Is what I remember really clearly and being quite traumatised by this. Martine: Well that's gonna traumatise anybody. Kate: Exactly, I was like where is this material coming from? Because I see people didn't often didn't want to sort of really tackle it. You know, who wants to sit and look through a pile of sex education resources, right? But it's really important. And there's great places now doing really inclusive education. There's actually an organisation it's called amaze.org and they have, they focus on young people and it's fully inclusive. So they talk about things like coming out. And they talk about masturbation in a really sort of almost body neutral way. They're explicit but they don't assume gender is binary. And I just think it's extraordinarily forward thinking. And so important because we know from so many people who've spoken up for the transgender community. Most people know. And they know very young. And the risks to mental health for people who cannot live authentically and cannot fully realise their potential, is devastating. So those kind of resources, and it's also not keeping it just within sex education, it's looking around yet not talking in binary terms about gender and sexuality. And not reducing it just to the active sex. There's so much more that goes with that, that just was not visible. You know, it wasn't in my English literature. It wasn't in my geography when we did sort of more social side of geography. It wasn't in sex-ed at all. It was forbidden from being there. And that needs to come right the way through education now. It's, you know, there's been so much focus on I think it's become like, I think it's become the gender equivalent of being a plastic straw and the zero waste debate. But there's kind of you know, gender neutral bathrooms. Gender neutral toilets within schools are so important because it means that somebody doesn't have to, they're just there. It's just not a big deal. And somebody doesn't have to you know, wave their hand and signal "I need a different option here." It shouldn't be on the person who's still probably trying to figure themselves out. Let's be honest. And there's been quite a focus on schools. Whether they should have them or not. Well actually, this, the law's already been changed that you can put them in and implement them. That changed quite a while ago. It's just taken a long time. And that's an example of how long policy takes to actually implement. That it's just not standard yet. You know, this is a couple years ago, this changed. So, I think sometimes we can get really hung up on one aspect of making sure that everybody is included at the sort of cost of well where else am I doing it within this educational setting? You know, yes I am. I'm teaching chemistry or physics but there are times and we know this within classrooms where those discussions are gonna come up, or material that we're using, or something that we're looking at can lend itself to a much more inclusive conversation. It's kind of a, you're one part of a collective whole, aren't you? And I think for me, it would've taken just one teacher. One teacher to maybe visibly be out or be sort of able to spot. You know, the signs of somebody who was really struggling with their identity. Or just to talk really frankly or just slide in you know, like a little reference. We're still having it in, recently in the US there's somebody has been legally dismissed because they referred to their wife. And you know were like this is inappropriate behaviour. Yet I haven't seen anybody, any female teacher who's been fired because she referred to her husband. Martine: Wow. Kate: Just yeah. Exactly. You know, it's still very culturally relevant. And particularly around young people. People have a really hard time sort of separating sexual aspects of sexual identity and identity. You know, the queer community we're all about like different style choices and you know subversiveness and there's so much more going on there and yet it is often reduced to well this is an act that I can't agree with so, done. So if you're hosting conversations or just making it a gentle and safe environment and signaling that safety, you are possibly part of something that is gonna help someone live a much more authentic life. And just not waste the time I did. I wasted 20 years of bad relationships before I went "oh, I don't think I like men as partners. Well this is a revelation." And things changed. You know. That could've been avoided so long ago, by just having a more inclusive educational setting. I really believe that. Martine: Gosh it's just such a massive reminder about the important role that teachers play in society. I mean, what a difference you can make. Kate: It really is. And it's one of the things I feel so passionate about teachers you know, being given appropriate times to prepare these lessons to be, have their work properly valued, to be properly paid and have the time off, you know. And the first to kind of support schools you know. And if teachers make mistakes I'm like "do you know how much pressure this teacher's under to perform?" I think it's really important that the support goes both ways. Because teachers are so powerful. They really are. Like, everyone can remember a good and a bad teacher, can't they? Martine: Oh, definitely. Definitely. Wow. That sounds like another conversation for another podcast episode. Goodness me. Wow. Kate there's so much good stuff there. Thank you very much. I told you listeners she has lots of layers and that's very positive. So thank you for such a thoughtful response to the topic of this episode. There's so much both trainee teachers and experienced teachers and trainers to think about. And what you've said. Thank you very much. Kate, where can people find you online? Because everyone's gonna wanna stalk you online now. Kate: Very welcome to. I can be found as kateosullivan.org. That's my website. And you'll find links there onto my blog. And my podcast where I host interviews around these kind of topics. They just make the every day quite explicit sometimes. I think people really struggle with it otherwise. I also have a Patreon community that's linked there. And the Patreon funds kinda everything that I do. It pays for all the podcasts. And I make sure everything's transcribed. And one of the reasons is for access, but also because I have teachers and things who often use them as material to teach from or to become part of their learning and education. And I do live broadcasts on there and some more podcasting. Some blogs. Some essays. With a view of just you know, people who want to invest a little bit more time they can then help substitute my pay so we can do it. It's kind of a crowd funding community, which I love. And online, I'm trying to think, so I recently changed all of my media handles you see… I am Kateo_Sullivan. You can find me in most places. I'm a bit sweary on Twitter and less so on Instagram but still quite sweary. Martine: I love that. Hashtag, a bit sweary. Kate: A bit sweary. I kind of had this idea that you know, all language should be available to us, so we ought to use all of it. Martine: So if people want to find you on social media presumably you've got some links on your website to all of those. Kate: I do. It's all linked. If you go to kateosullivan.org you got links like all up the top for everything you might need. From the podcasts, to Instagram. Whatever floats ya boat. Martine: Awesome. Thank you so much. Kate: Thank you. Wrap Up Huge thanks to Kate for a fantastic interview. It was a real pleasure to talk to her. Before we conclude the episode I have something exciting to tell you about. My first book The Productive Teacher is now available to purchase online. To find out more hop over to theproductiveteacherbook.com and you can grab your copy via that link. Thanks for tuning in. I hope you’ll join me next time.

With the start of a new year, many of us will begin creating trialing goals, such as our desire to obtain a certain title by a certain date. In this podcast, we discuss the benefit of designing smaller, obtainable goals that are laser focused on building specific skills for both you and your dog, and how these smaller goals will ultimately help you achieve the "big" goal of earning your desired title. ----more---- Want to learn more about Dog Sport University? Check out our website and look over our Dog Sport Skills courses. You may also be interested in our informative webinars as well as the Dog Sport University blog.  Have you heard about Scent Work and want to delve deeper into that activity? Perfect, we have just the thing! Check out our sister online dog training platform, Scent Work University where you will find courses and webinars suited for both those dog owners who simply want to have fun, and those who are seriously competing with their dogs. Maybe you're looking to help your puppy or dog in the manners department. Then your need to check out Family Dog University where we provide a variety of programs to help your dog be the best canine family companion they can be! PODCAST TRANSCRIPT Welcome to the All About Dogs Sports & Training Podcast. In this podcast, we talk about all things dog sports as well as all things dog training. We'll provide you a behind-the-scenes look at what your instructor may be going through, what your trial officials may be going through, provide you some training tips and much more. In this episode, we're gonna be talking about how in a new year, we can start designing some trial end goals and how we have to make certain that those are ideal goals and that we're not setting ourselves up and our dogs up for failure. Before we start diving into the podcast, I'm just going to do a very quick introduction to myself. My name is Dianna Santos. I'm the Owner and Lead Instructor for both Dog Sport University and Scent Work University. Dog Sports University is an online dog training platform where we provide online courses, webinars and seminars covering such topics as dog sports, such as agility, competition obedience, treibball and tricks as well as good manners courses such as our Family Dog Program, our Perfect Puppies Program, Canine Good Citizen Prep, Real Life Skills, Shaping Behavior and much more. In addition to being a professional dog trainer, I'm also an approved trial official and have actually worked with a competition organization. So, now you know a little bit about me, let's dive into the podcast. So, at the start of the new year, it's very common for all of us to start designing some goals, some resolutions, things that we would like to do. And when we're involved in dog sports, one of the most common things that people do is that they will start designing some trial end goals, some things that they want to achieve in that given year in regard to dog sports if they happen to compete. And that may be that they're going to start competing or that if they are competing, they want to obtain a certain goal as far as a certain title. What I'd like to do in this podcast is to really nail down what I would claim would be a better way of designing those goals, so that you can actually achieve them in training and so that you're not setting your dog and yourself up for failure. Because sometimes when we put out a goal post, it's just so incredibly vague such as, "I want to obtain that title," it can be a little difficult in order to put together a plan to actually achieve that goal. So, in this podcast, we just wanna talk about some of the better ways that you may be able to design your new year goals, so that you can maybe ultimately obtain that title, but you're actually working towards very specific goal points instead. I'm going preface this by saying I personally have a love-hate relationship with competition. I personally can take or leave dog sports a lot of the time as far as the competing piece. I really enjoy the activities, I enjoy the training part of it. And there are times when I really enjoy trialing and there are other times where I find it really super stressful. And a lot of that just has to do with the fact that I get stuck in my own head a lot of the time. My dog is brilliant. If he had a better handler, he would have a lot of letters behind his name. By coming at it from that perspective and because the titles themselves don't hold any inherent value all within themselves in that I need to have a title in order to get up the next day. That's just not how I'm wired. I can come to the place of putting together goals a little bit differently than someone who really thinks that having the titles is really, really, really important. And it's not to say that either approach is wrong. It's not. What I'm hoping to do in this podcast is just outline some of the ways that all of us can at least do a better job of our designing our goals so that they can actually be obtained. I have actually done the whole thing of saying, "Oh, well I would like to achieve this title by this date." This has never worked for me. Now, the argument could be made that maybe that's just because I don't have a good approach, maybe it's because I'm competitive enough. Who knows? My guess is going to be that for me personally, and this is probably true for a lot of people is that that goal didn't provide me with a whole lot of information. It was just a date on a calendar that seemed to get closer and closer way too quickly 'til all of a sudden, we were there and there was no way that we were gonna be prepared in order to obtain that goal, in order to do well in whatever sport it may be. Whether it be rally, obedience, barn hunt or scent work. So, what I want do in this podcast is to outline some of the things that I've found to have been successful as far as helping me really design some good goals that can be obtained through training and practice that are all pointing towards ultimately ending up at that title. So, the way that this would work is you, of course, will have a big goal. And the big goal can absolutely be the title. So, for instance, in scent work, one of the goals that I would have for 2019 is that we do go back to trialing. That would be goal number one. And goal number two would be that for one of the competition organizations, which is NACSW, that we would obtain our NW2 title, which is the level two title. So, that is a big goal. But from that, what I need to do is I need to figure out well, why are we obtaining that right now? What is missing? What is missing training-wise? What is missing skill-wise? Why is it that we don't have that already? What is it that we need to do as a team, both on the dog training side and on my skill side together, what is it that we need in order to obtain that title? And this is where I think designing some very specific goals will help, so for instance, for NW2, you're gonna be dealing with more distractors within the search area, so we would need to have a very specific exercise set up where we are working on those kinds of things where now there are distractors within the search area itself. So, then we have a general premise, but now you need to break that down into smaller goals. An example of that would be I would like my dog to work a container search where there is two distractors out within the container search and he successfully finds the hide without hitting on the distractors. Perfect. And then from there, you can start making it a little bit harder. There's going to be five distractors out and there's only going to be one hide. He successfully finds the hide. He does that, great. That goal is checked off. Then, we wanna do it within a time limit, then we wanna do it when he's both on leash and off leash. Then, we wanna do it where the hide is actually blind to me where I don't know where it is. So, I hope you can see that even with this very simple example, that's starting with the big goal of we would like to obtain our NW2, you can then from that, figure out what your actual actionable goals would be. And then, from there, you can make it even more specific where you can actually come up with a game plan of how it is that you're going to be developing your training program so that you can obtain those skills. And the key here is that it shouldn't just be focusing on the dog. Nine times out of 10, with dog sports, it's a team effort. It involves both the dog and the handler. You both have to be showing up and doing well. You have to have good skills. So, you want to make certain that you're focusing on both. You're not putting all of your emphasis on the dog and you're just kinda sitting at the sidelines saying, "Eh, well we'll figure it out." You wanna make certain you're working on both of you. So, to take another dog sport as an example, one of the things that I would like to do this year is to get more involved in our rally and our competition obedience trialing and a lot of that's gonna depend on my body, whether or not it decides to cooperate or not. But instead of just falling back on that excuse, so saying, "Well, there's a really good chance that my body isn't going to cooperate, so we're just not even gonna try." This year, I'm actually going to put a training plan in place where we are going to at least training wise be prepared to go into certain trials. Whether or not we actually make it on trial day is an entirely different question. That all depends on what my body says that day, but it's no longer going to be an excuse of saying, "Well, you know, we don't need to perfect this stuff, because I probably won't be able to do it anyway." Just recognizing that if this is an important goal that we have to work on it and it's going to require work. I'm going to have to make certain that I have a certain period of time of practicing these specific skills that I am videotaping my practice sessions, that I'm seeing where things could be improved, where it is that there are weaknesses either within the training itself or even with my own handling. What am I doing with my body? So, particularly with rally or a competition obedience, one of the things that I tend to do when I'm heeling, is I'll tend to look over my shoulder down at my dog. And what that does, it pushes him back, because I'm looking backwards. The other thing I've had an issue with is having a very good rhythm when I walk and that can make things very difficult for the dog, because they're constantly flowing between a fast walk and a pace and a trot whereas if you can just find a really good rhythm, it makes things a lot easier for them. So, what I would need to do, because we would like to go forward and actually compete in both rally and competition obedience is I need to do two different things: I need to work on my dog skills, so that he understands the various things that he would need to do both at the entry level of that dog sport as well as a level ahead of it, because you never wanna just prepare for the bare minimum. You don't wanna go in there just by the skin of your teeth. You want to be able to go into that trial knowing that your dog could actually enter the level above and do well. That way, it's easy peasy. So, I need to work on those things with him. A lot of it's just cleaning it up and finessing stuff. But a lot of it's gonna be on me, that I need to make sure that my handling skills are up to par, that I'm doing my piece. So, those are the kinds of things that all of us can do where if you have said to yourself, "I want to obtain this title in 2019," that's great, that's fine, but what is it you're actually going to do to obtain that title? And then be really brutally honest about it. Where are you right now? Where will you and your dog be able to go within a reasonable period of time? And it very well may be that you may not be able to obtain that goal within that time frame and that's okay. That's one of the big things that I think a lot of us put way too much pressure on ourselves and our dogs, because we're worried about the calendar and a lot of the calendar stuff is because we're worried about other people. So, we're thinking about what other people would think about us, whether it be our dog's breeder, whether it be our friends, our colleagues, whatever. None of that matters. You wanna make certain that you're doing this in a way that both you and your dog can be successful, you're not biting off more than you can chew and you're designing goals that are actually obtainable. So an example of an unobtainable goal would be if you had just purchased a 12-week-old puppy from a breeder and you wanted to obtain your OTCH or your MACH within that year. That's not going to happen. Now, are there people who have done a MACH in a year? There are. It's really very rare and it's not a really good idea. You're not gonna be able to get your OTCH in a year. It's just not gonna happen. It doesn't mean that you and your dog are bad. It just means that it's gonna take more time to develop those skills. So, make certain that you're being realistic with your goals. Don't shoot yourself in the foot by asking what would take normally two, three, four years of skill building to be jammed all into one for no other reason than to say that you did it in that time frame. You're just gonna drive yourself crazy, you're gonna make it so that your dog hates whatever activity that you're doing and it's probably not gonna work out for the best. Just be realistic with these sorts of things. Design goals with the undercurrent that you're going to enjoy this. The one thing about dog sports is that this entirely elective. You don't have to do any of this. It's supposed to be fun, even for people who do this for a living. They enjoy doing it, even if this is what they do in order to pay the bills. They still like the sport. They still enjoy it. Don't design goals that are basically guaranteed to make you miserable at the end of the day, because they're so incredibly difficult. And that also doesn't mean that your goals should be really gimme, like, "Oh, I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna feed my dog a treat today. Oh, I did my goal." You know, there has to be a balance. But make certain that it's being realistic, you're keeping in mind all the various things that are gonna go into obtaining that goal and then it's not just such a broad thing such as, "I'm going to obtain this title by this date." That's not going to help you. You need to be able to break that down into very specific skill sets that both you and your dog are gonna have to work on and ideally when you're designing your goal, you have an idea of how it is that you can then obtain that goal and you may even wanna break it up into smaller steps. The more short-term goals you can set, the better it is. Because that way, it feels as if you're making progression. If you only have giant goals, it's never going to feel as though you're getting there. It's gonna be like three months down the line, you're gonna be like, "I'm nowhere even close to where I wanna be right now." But if you actually break that up into smaller pieces, you can keep track of it whichever way works best for you, on a piece of paper, on your smartphone, however. But just jotting it down, we've done this, we've done that, we've done the other thing. You know what, we're making pretty darn good progress. But by also keeping track of it, you can see when you're back sliding. You can see when you're not on track. You can see when you veered off the path completely and you ended up in Osh Gosh Land. So, the whole premise behind this is with the start of a new year, a lot of us are gonna start making goals and we're gonna be saying how we would like to do this, that, and the other thing. And there's nothing wrong with that. All I'm suggesting is that we be a little bit more mindful of it, particularly when we're interested in competing. It's great that people do a reset and that people have nice, fresh eyes in the new year and there are things that they would like to try and do with their dog. Maximize on that positivity and this is coming from someone who is a lifelong pessimist, but maximize on the fact that you do feel this sense of revival. Maximize on the fact that you are excited to try these new things. That you are excited to try to obtain these different goals. But set yourself and your dog up to succeed by breaking those up into smaller pieces, so that you can actually obtain them. So, I hope you found this podcast helpful. Thank you so much for listening. Happy training and we look forward to seeing you soon.

Garry Kinder shares how successful agents form the habits of doing the things people who fail don't like to do and won't do. Learn why activity should be your primary focus. View more at MarkMiletello.com. Note: “Where The Insurance Pros Meet” is an audio podcast and is meant for the ear. A transcript of the audio is provided for referencing a particular section or for you to follow along. Listen to the episode to get the most out of our show. We use both speech recognition software and human transcribers to create the transcripts so they may contain errors. If you’re going to quote us in print, please be sure to check the corresponding audio. TRANSCRIPT Speaker 1: 'Where the Insurance Pros Meet,' episode five. Garry Kinder: The one thing you can control is activity. Speaker 1: 'Where the Insurance Pros Meet' is a podcast that brings the greatest talent in the world together. Managers, coaches, and producers, the very best experts the insurance and financial services industry has to offer. Get ready to change the way you do business, to have your most successful year ever. Now, here's Mark Miletello, a top 1% producer, manager, and your host of 'Where the Insurance Pros Meet.' Mark Miletello: Welcome to 'Where the Insurance Pros Meet.' I'm your host, Mark Miletello. Today, we have on the show a true icon in the insurance and financial services industry. Our guest has won more awards, touched more lives, mentored more agents, associated with more companies, written more books, and had over six decades in the insurance and financial services. I could talk half probably the entire show of trying to give a proper introduction to our guest, but I know him personally as a friend. I really think that a personal story he would appreciate more. I met our guest 17 years ago. I came from a prior company where I was top three in that company. I had sold 30,000 of life premium back in 2000. When I made a sideways move to a new company, that was the bottom of the barrel of life. I realized that there was a bigger world out there. I was struggling to figure out how in the world could a multiple line agent do more than 25,000 of life production. I was lucky enough, fortunate enough, to be invited to ... I guess at the time, our guest was being ... It was kind of a study group that the company was seeing could he really affect agents enough to hire him on as a mentor for our company. I was invited to drive to Baton Rouge. I think it was six or eight class session. Garry Kinder: Yup. Mark Miletello: After that meeting, my production personally went to MDRT for three consecutive years after that meeting. All the lives that you've touched, all the agents that you've touched, the clients that you've touched, all roads kind of lead back, and all the greats that I've talked to. Personally, for me, I want to welcome my mentor and one of the greats in the industry. I like to call him the great Garry Kinder. Welcome, Garry. Garry Kinder: Well, it's my pleasure, Mark, to be with you. I remember those days over in, I believe it was Louisiana. Wasn't it? That we met? Mark Miletello: That's right, that's right. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Mark Miletello: In Doug Jones' office. Garry Kinder: I remember those days. Yeah, I remember that. I guess we did have six or seven sessions. We had a ... That session had a great impact on you, and you've become a tremendous performer. I'm always glad to hear you talk about what happened back there in Louisiana. That's great stuff. Mark Miletello: Well ... Garry Kinder: Go ahead. Mark Miletello: Well, and you've always remembered that session. Someone that has taught hundreds of classes a year, how do you remember? How do you look back and every time we talk and we meet, you remember that? I know you went on to have a great career mentoring with my company at the time. I don't know, you just have the ability, I guess, to really ... remember that class, those people, that situation. Maybe it's all of them, maybe you just have a great memory. Garry Kinder: Well, I do have ... I was blessed as a young kid with memory. I could remember things. I'll never forget going to a Dale Carnegie course. The very first evening, they said, "We want to go around and have everybody introduce themselves." We did that. Then they pulled this on us. They said, "Now, who here know the names of all the people that stood up and told you their name, and where they're from? How many of you are ready to tell us what their names were?" I went around the room and I think I knew every first name except one. That was the first session of Dale Carnegie, and they gave me ... Of course, they give away prizes and that. The first prize was the Dale Carnegie book. I've always been blessed with ... which helps you in this business. Mark Miletello: Wow. Garry Kinder: Remembering names. Mark Miletello: No wonder, no wonder. Well, that explains it. I'm sure you went on to be a leader in that class. I would have given anything to have been in that class with you. Garry Kinder: Yeah, yeah. Mark Miletello: Garry, let's break for some industry news quick. Garry Kinder: Okay. Mark Miletello: Studies show 60% of household’s own life insurance. 34% say they want to buy more. Now Garry, the last 100 appointments I've been on, not one of them have had the right amount of insurance or the right plans, the right type of plans, to meet their own needs and goals. I believe that everyone out there is a prospect right now in this day and time. Garry Kinder: I believe it because not only are you doing that and what you've said here about these numbers from and so forth, that that's all true stuff and it's well researched. ... What is happening, and I'll add another thing to what you said, and that is that there are fewer agents ... and there are fewer agencies than there were say, let's say 10, 15 years ago. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: The opportunity for people coming into the industry is just unbelievable. The opportunity is tremendous. Now, they must go through a period of time of being taught and learning, and all that. Some learn faster than others, but there are fewer agents. There are fewer companies. Mark Miletello: Right. Well, and it's ... I'm excited to have you on this show. As you speak, all these memories pop up into my mind of what you taught me. One of those was accountability of also tracking, and keeping my numbers. I had never done that until then. Yeah, I think they do have much more challenges. Of course, every generation ... every decade probably says that. It's just challenging as any new agent in any time that you start in this industry. It is. If it was easy, then everyone would do it, and everyone would make a ton of money. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Mark Miletello: But you're right, it's a great opportunity in the fact that there are fewer agents now. They must break through those first couple tough years, don't they? Garry Kinder: That's really true. That's really true. As you look at the agencies and the companies, there are fewer agencies, but they're bigger. Mark Miletello: They're bigger. Garry Kinder: There are fewer companies, but they're bigger, but there still is a phenomenal opportunity for veterans in the business and for neophytes in the business. It's just a great time to be in the business. Mark Miletello: Well, we're going to- Garry Kinder: Great time. Mark Miletello: Well, thank you. We're going to jump into that, but first, let's get into professional strategies. Garry, this show has a format that follows closely professional sports; and mainly because I believe ... First, it's fun. I also believe that the industry professionals in our industry have much in common with great athletes, with the practice, with the training, with the mentorship, and the coaching. To kick off this show, let's talk a little bit about football first. Garry Kinder: Okay. Mark Miletello: The first book I ... One of the first books I've read in the industry had you, your brother Jack, and Roger Staubach on the front cover, called 'Winning Strategies in Selling.' Tell us about ... Garry Kinder: Okay. Mark Miletello: Since we're going to go with a football theme, tell us how'd you get Roger Staubach on the front cover? Garry Kinder: Well, we moved to Dallas, Texas, the exact same year that Roger came out of the service and moved to Dallas. We were very active in FCA, Fellowship of Christian Athletes. The two of us got to know each other really quick. Believe it or not, he had young kids and he ended up having five children, I believe. Back when he was here, he had two or three small children. I had a swimming pool in my backyard. He did not have a swimming pool in his backyard. He was a rookie ... and wasn't making that much money. Back in those days, 1969, 1970, the players weren't being paid like they are today. At any rate, he brought his kids over with a swimming teacher to teach his ... in my pool, taught people how to ... taught his children how to swim. We got to know each other quite well that way. We would ... I did a lot of work with him at the Cowboys. That's back when I did the chapels for the Cowboys, for Landry and for Staubach, anything where he was playing. We just became very, very close friends. We are still to this day. The reason ... that ... some athletes do so well in the real estate business and in the insurance business, ... and Staubach did both. You take the things you did on the playing field and you use them in the business practice. They're very similar. Everything is similar. You got to practice. You got to believe. You got to stick with it. You got to have goals, that kind of stuff. That all made sense to him. Then, so we ... My brother Jack and I, we asked him, "Look, we want to write a book, and we want it to be ... Every book we've written had been geared to the insurance industry. We might like to be ... We'd like to write one that's generic, that every salesperson in every walk of life can read, and get some good information about ... get information from reading the book." That's how that all came about. Mark Miletello: Well, very good. You had mentioned your brother Jack, and speaking of your late brother Jack, I never had the privilege of meeting him. I talk and ... but with a lot of my friends, and industry professionals that had been touched by Jack in the same way that you have touched my career. Can you share with us a bit about Jack? I wish that I had the opportunity to meet him. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Mark Miletello: Because he sounds every bit as influential and special of a person as you've been in the many lives in our industry. Can you tell us a little bit about your feelings about Jack? Garry Kinder: Well, Jack was five years older than me. He left ... We were both athletes. He ... became a coach in North of Chicago. Now he's five years ahead of me. I'm just getting ready to go to college and he's already out there coaching one year. He coached North of Chicago five years. He ... called home one day, and told ... There wasn't any such thing as an email. He didn't even write a letter. He just called home and told my mom and dad that ... he's going to go into life insurance business. Well, when he hung up the phone and finished his correspondence and everything, my dad said to my mother, "You know, Jack's lost his mind. Why would somebody ... who's a coach go into life insurance?" Then, about two years ... and I was studying ... I was geared to be a CPA ... I wanted to be a CPA. I took a lot of accounting courses in college. ... Jack said, "You're no accountant. You're a life insurance agent. You're born with life insurance in your brain and in your body. You ... This business is really for you. Now, you ... and you ought to start doing it right now." Now back in those days, that was 1953, people ... insurance companies could hire people and encouraged it, by the way, to be ... if you're in college, you can still start selling and learn how to sell your fraternity brothers, and how you sell to students and all of that. When you graduate, you'll have some policyholders, and you'll have some background. I ... started selling life insurance as a junior in college. When I graduated in 1955 from June to the end of December, I worked my tail off and I went over to our leader, our manager. He was in Peoria, Illinois. I was in Bloomington, Illinois. We were both raised in Pekin, Illinois. Jack was in Pekin. Our agency was in Peoria. I was in Bloomington. We'd all go over to him to set our goals for the next year. This was 1955. Mark Miletello: Yup. Garry Kinder: I went over to see him to set my goals. He said to me after some discussion. He said, "Garry, what are you up to? What are you going to do your first full calendar in the business?" I said, "Well, Mr. Holderman, I'd like to qualify for the million-dollar roundtable." He said, "Let me tell you something, young man. You forget the million-dollar roundtable. Young people like you don't qualify for the million-dollar roundtable. Now, it's going to take you a few years to do that." I said, "Well, let's pretend that I did want to make it in 1956. Let's assume I wanted to make the million-dollar roundtable." He said, "Well, I'll tell you how difficult it will be. You have to pay for a," ... and he drew it all out on a sheet for me. "You have to pay for 100 ... for 200. You have to pay for 200 policies your first year." We didn't sell much term insurance in those days. It mainly ... and there was no such thing as what type of products we have today. I said, "Okay. I'll do that. I'm going to ... I'm going to sell four policies a week." I'll never forget going home to see Jack and tell him what I was going to do. I told my dad. My dad said, "Well, what are you ... what are you up to? What are you going to do?" I said, "Well dad, I'm going to ... sell life insurance." He said, "No, I mean what are you going to do day in, day out?"I said, "Well, I'm going to qualify for the million-dollar round table, and that means I got to sell four policies every week. I got to sell 200 policies." He looked at me like I was nuts, and he said, "Well, what are you going to do with the rest of the time if you're only going to sell four policies a week?" That ... It really helped me. Then Jack helped me along there. Jack was a coach. He did a lot of coaching to me, so I qualified for the million-dollar round table before Jack did. Then, we went on to ... sell ... to qualify for the million-dollar round table several other years after that. End of the 1990s, we ... Jack started qualified with me, but I qualified back there. I was ... in 1956, and I graduated in '55. I had a full year to go in 1956. I got the job done. Mark Miletello: Wow. Well, I'll tell you, Jack, ... Every time I hear you talk about him, it sounds like me and my bigger brother. He's four years older than me. He's one of the greats in the financial services industry. I don't know. I just think sometimes ... I think that's what we are to the agents we mentor. We're big brothers to them because it sounds like you and I had a good big brother that showed us the way and gave us great guidance. I believe ... I think it's safe to say he was kind of a mentor of yours as well. Garry Kinder: Was he ever. He got to the point where he started making MDRT with me. It was too bad he was in Northern Illinois. We both lived in Dallas. He ... was up doing a program with a company in the Quad Cities. I was on Rock Island. He had a stroke. From that point forward, he couldn't walk. He couldn't talk. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: But he could understand everything you said, everything you said. I'd take ... keep people ... some of them, like you,'d know, like Ron Price, and people like that, that you know. We'd regularly go over and talk to Jack. He could talk ... I mean, he could listen, but he couldn't talk. We'd say something that was funny and start laughing, and then I'd take Staubach over there. Staubach would kid him like you wouldn't believe, and get him laughing. He would be laughing, but he couldn't talk. He couldn't walk. He had to be taken care, but he kept his optimism. He kept him... he didn't poo-poo, or he didn't say ... Well, he couldn't talk, so he couldn't tell us how bad it was, but he would sit there and listen. Mark Miletello: You could tell. Garry Kinder: He could listen to every word, and he'd laugh; if it was something to laugh at. Mark Miletello: Well, I think that's what it takes to be successful in this industry. No matter what the odds, no matter what the challenge is, you always keep that optimism. You always have the vision and looking forward. I wish I would have had the opportunity to meet him. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Mark Miletello: He was still around when you and I met, but ... Thank you for sharing about Jack, and talking about Jack, and all the ... I mean looking back over your career, can you ... tell us maybe someone that you looked up to in the way that we look up to you, Garry? Is there some ... Some of the greats in our industry that you recall that really stand out, that you've met over your illustrious career? Garry Kinder: Sure. First, our manager, Fred Holderman, in Peoria, Illinois, was the first man inducted into the GAMA Hall of Fame. He was a great inspiration to us. He was ... because he'd been in the business forever. He was the first one inducted into the Hall of Fame. He was just a great manager and a great leader. He taught us two things that I'll never forget: systems. You got to have systems. You got to have a sales system. You got to have a calling system. You must have a system of gathering referred leads. You must have systems. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: You must have systems. He just kept saying that repeatedly. You must have systems. He also said you got to keep score. ... We would have to send to him every week how many dials, how many reaches, how many applications, how many paid cases did you get done this week? We'd send that to him and he would send it back with a ... writing on it. It really helped me, and it inspired me. Mark Miletello: Well, that's what you had me do. Garry Kinder: He also- Mark Miletello: In the meeting, we had together. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Mark Miletello: That's what you had me bring in at those training sessions, and it does, and it did. Garry Kinder: It makes a difference. I'm telling you, Mark. It really makes a difference. When we would send those in at the end of every month, he would send ... I think it was like $100 check, which was unbelievably high back in ... and that was in 1955, '56, '57. Every time you turn that in with the whole agency, and some would turn them in, some wouldn't. The ones that would turn them in, he would grade them, and he would pay ... He would send an extra $100. Mark Miletello: Wow. Garry Kinder: He said, "This is what you get for keeping the record, and you had the best ... blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Well, there was another guy that was strong. His name was Dale Nelson, and he was up in Joliet, Illinois, not too far from Bloomington. Every month, either he or me, one or the other, would win that $100. We were both selling on average, four paid cases a week. Today, that's unheard of. Mark Miletello: Right. Well, it's funny that you ... Most people I talk to, we talk premium, premium, premium. Every time I talk to you, it's always activity. I think of the systems that you taught me. The activity funnel, which is every time I bring on a new agent, I pull out your activity funnel. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Mark Miletello: I talk about taking ... yes, how do you get to MDRT, but then you reverse it all the way back down to the daily activity that it takes? One thing you taught me, and I remember it, and I've used it, and I will never forget it. It's, "Mark, you've only sold 30,000 of life premium in your best year.""Yes, that's right, Garry.""Well, tell me, how are you going to go out and write 100,000 in life? You can't do it. I mean, you can't even visualize it; but what you can do is you can go out and write four applications and a week, and it will set you up. You can't tell how big those are going to be. You can't tell if the client's going to say 'yes,' or 'no,' or whether it's going to get issued or not, or the health of the client, or what not; but you can control your actions." That's something I'll never forget it. Garry Kinder: That's so good, Mark. That is really good. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: It's really true. The one thing you can control is activity. Then, you just go down that chart and ... you watch the activity, and suddenly, you're being highly successful. Our manager ... Go ahead. Mark Miletello: No, no, I just ... I was recruiting an agent the other day and one of our first training meetings. I just said ... I said ... and maybe I got a little strong.I said, "But if I held a gun to your head and said, 'Go out and write 100,000 of life premium,' could you promise me you would do that?" He goes, "Yes, I could with a gun to my head."I said, "Well, no you can't. You can't promise me that." I said, "But if I told you, you had to talk to ten people a day to have five set appointments, to have three applications a week, could you promise me that you could talk to ten ... In fact, you could talk to ten people in an hour if you had a gun pointed at your head." He goes, "You know, you're right. I would walk out of this door and knock on every door I could. I'd talk to 50 in an hour if I had a gun to my head." I kind of had a little twist of what you taught me. Garry Kinder: That's. Mark Miletello: I just shared with him that you can control your actions, but you can't control the results. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: It's really true. You can control that activity. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: That's good. That's a great thing to talk about. Mark Miletello: Garry, I know what it took me to go to MDRT. I have you to thank for that. You've shared with us your story of going to MDRT. You also were involved and got involved in the management side. I know your brother Jack was probably ... Would it be safe to say he was more of a manager, and you were more of the producer? Garry Kinder: That's correct. That is correct. Mark Miletello: You ended up going into leadership as well. Can you tell us about the management side of the business? Garry Kinder: Sure ... sure. Mark Miletello: And when that happened. Garry Kinder: Sure. Well, at 19 ... Let's see, 1958. Yeah, in 1958, I'd been in the business counting my one year as a junior college and a senior in college, selling that ... calling that one year, and then two or three more years. They, at AXA we had this man, Fred G. Holderman, who was the first one inducted into the Hall of Fame. He was always constantly saying, "People like you ought to be in management because you can continue to sell, and ... you can ... coach as you go along. And then, you can recruit people." He sent me over to ... I was at Bloomington, but he called the manager at Bloomington and he said, "I'm going to put Garry in your unit, and I want you to leave him alone because he's got his brother, but I want you to leave him alone." He was telling this on the telephone while I'm sitting there listening to him talking to a manager. He said, "I want you to leave him alone and he'll take care of everything. Give him a good desk and just leave him alone. He'll send all his stuff to me, and we'll get her done. You just sit there and take it." Then when he hung up, he said, "What little do you ... don't know is in the next couple years, he's not going to make it. He's not going to make it. I'm going to need somebody like you in a college town talking to young kids, getting out of college with degrees ... some of them have taken a lot of insurance courses." Illinois Wesleyan and Illinois State University both had strong ... insurance courses. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: I took ... I had 16 hours of insurance when I graduated. Mark Miletello: Wow. Garry Kinder: It was a strong place to start. Eventfully, I started hiring people. He told me, "I want you to take over. The man that was there, I've asked him to go to other places and you ... you take over and sell a lot of these college kids." Well, the college kids in my era were getting back from the war. They were tough-minded people. I hired a lot of these people who came back out of the service into the life insurance business. I ... brought them in off the college campus. I had like the captain of the ... the football team at Illinois State University. He came on and he just died about a year ... less than a year ago. He was an outstanding agent, outstanding agent. I hired the quarterback from Illinois Wesleyan and brought him into the business. He decided he wanted to spend more time coaching than being in the insurance business, but I did bring him in. He did do a good job, but he wanted to go back to ... Then he became the athletic director in Illinois Wesleyan, but he had all that insurance background and believed in ...I brought a lot of these kids in, and I knew which ones fit our industry and which ones didn't. I hadn't been out of the business two years ... I mean I hadn't been in the business two years and I'm in ... I'm a ... what AXA called a district manager. Mark Miletello: Which was you were still producing, right? I mean you were still a production man. Garry Kinder: I was still producing. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: At an MDRT level. I was still producing, and I was hiring three or four a year. I was bringing them in. At that time, Equitable had a gold ... deal or a gold ... What do you call it? Trophy, a gold trophy. They had a gold trophy for the leading general agent and the leading district manager. At that time, I was the district manager. I got that gold trophy. I was number one in the country. Mark Miletello: Nice. Garry Kinder: Then, I moved to Akron, Ohio, where I took over an agency. After a couple years, I got the gold trophy for agency managers. In both cases, I could sell Equitable to this day, by the way. AXA still encourages managers to sell. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: Particularly district managers. Mark Miletello: A lot of companies are getting away from that, you know that? Yeah. Garry Kinder: Oh yeah. Yeah, I look at it every day. They're getting away from that. Northwestern, Mass Mutual, Equitable still like their managers to sell. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: But they're ... fewer and fewer companies are doing that. I have nothing against it. It's just that it fit me better because I loved selling. It fit Jack tremendously because he wanted to coach. He was ... a better coach than I was. As we went along, I made a lot more money because I was still performing as an agent. Mark Miletello: I got a funny story to tell you is that ... I'm in a position where, as you know because I went through your agent mentoring. I also went through your management mentoring when I decided in 2008 to ... I'd won a lot of the awards that our company had to offer, made a lot of money. I wanted to ... I was good at recruiting, and bringing people in the business, and helping them, and building processes and systems the same way that you did. Seven years later, ... and I didn't want to be competition with my agents, I guess was my excuse. I was getting very rusty, and I was telling my agents, "You know, this is how I used to do it, and this is what I did." They're like, "Well, Mark, times are different. You know, it's seven years." People ... They looked... I had some great success. I was the number one agent in the company. It was just funny that ... I don't want to put it this way, but kind of sometimes a great producer in your own homeland. They don't see that. They don't know that. That was a different time and a different era. Just ... a lot of things, but also really client meetings. I was getting rusty over seven years, Garry. Last year, I have you know, I kind of jumped back into production just to sharpen my ax again. I hit MDRT last year. Garry Kinder: Good. You know, I didn't realize that. I'm glad to hear that. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: That's tremendous. Mark Miletello: Yeah. Garry Kinder: Yeah. Mark Miletello: Well, looking back over your career, you've told us about all the awards, all the neat people you've met, all your mentors, all the success you had. Is there one thing, an award or a time? Is there may be a client relationship? Is there something that you're most proud of looking back? I know that's a hard question. Garry Kinder: Yeah, that's a tough question. ... What I'd ... would think about and what I felt best about was helping people come into this business, and helping them succeed. Today, I still get a lot of messages, a lot of letters. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: With people like you, and I could name, after a name, after a name. I really, really love being in the business. I got really good feedback, and that helped me. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: I'll tell you one other thing that's a little off course, but I want you to hear this, that at Illinois Wesleyan, I was president of the fraternity of the Phi Gamma Delta. ...People in the fraternity kept saying to me, "You really ought to be a preacher. You ought to be a pastor. That's what you ought to do." Mark Miletello: I agree with that. Garry Kinder: I said, "Well, I don't feel ... I don't feel like doing that." I said, "I don't feel the calling." I went to a pastor that liked me, who was what you'd call a college pastor. He had a lot of college kids coming to his church. I was one of them. One time when I was a junior in college, I went to him. I said, "You know me... a lot of my friends and fraternity brothers are saying that I ought to be a preacher." He said, "Well let me tell you something. If you're going to be a preacher, you will know it. You will be called. You will know it." He said, "Let me tell you something else. You can do more good for the cause of Christ and the cause of religion. You can do a lot more if you're not a preacher if you're a worker if you're a layman. So, don't you pay attention to those kids? You just go ahead, keep selling insurance, and be the best insurance person in town, and ... they'll follow you, and not only in the insurance world, but they'll follow you in the spiritual world." As you know, that's what we teach, that there's the physical side of life. There's the financial side of life. There's the ... the medical side of life. You got all these things that you want to take care of, but you take care of your spiritual life. Everything else will fall in line. Mark Miletello: Well, you know I agree with that. Thank you for sharing. I think I tend to agree. As you go into a leadership position, the proudest moments are not about the awards anymore. You've had the success. It's more about those lives that you were able to touch along the way. I completely agree with that. My next question was going to be what motivates you because your energy level and your ... When I see you at conferences, you're the first one in the gym in the morning. When you're on stage, ... you light up the stage. You wake up the crowd. I think I know what motivates you after this show is you just love the business, and you love sharing it. Garry Kinder: Yeah, I love the business. I've been blessed with health, good health. Consequently, a lot of people say to me, "When are you going to retire?" I said, "I'm not sure." First, there's nothing in the Bible about retirement. You can go there from Genesis through Revelation and you're not going to find ... retirement in there. I'm going to ... and I'm not against retirement. I'm for it, and some people need to retire, but I didn't need to retire. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: I just love the work, got up every morning, go to work. Now, I don't go overseas as much as I used to. I've got several people that help me with that ... in our office. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: I do stay at work every day. I think it keeps you alert. I think it keeps on the ball. Mark Miletello: I absolutely ... I think you're going to be here long after I'm gone. You're going to make it, long time. Your inspiration is felt in the industry, and we thank you for it. You and I kind of had a conversation about the state of affairs. I think every year; every decade has state of affairs and issues. What I'd like to do, Garry is ... and maybe this is going to help the new agent. Maybe look in the future, today and into the future over the next years, and give us a professional prediction. You and I kind of have our conversation before we jump there, we had a conversation about the value of our products and the need for our products. Maybe if a new agent, new ... a person entering the industry could hear a bit of information about what you and I talk about, and the need for our products today. Garry Kinder: That's right. Well, ... I remember way back in college being ... Illinois Wesleyan and Illinois State University, as I said, were heavily ... You could take insurance courses ... because they were both very much involved because of State Farm. That's the home of State Farm. They put ... They've helped ... Mark Miletello: Cater to that. Garry Kinder: Those two universities. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: Come up with ... good curriculum. I'll never forget the professor. He did a few works ... He was a professor at Illinois Wesleyan, but he also did some work for State Farm. He ... I'll never forget as a senior, I took my final insurance course. It was life insurance. Life insurance and financial affairs. There was a course on social security. There was a course on this, a course on that. Now he comes, my senior year, and I'm sitting there in the ... classroom. He said ... and he walks in one day like in the middle of the year, and he said, "I'm going to give you today a what it, what it takes to be good in the life insurance business as an agent; because there's some of you in this room that maybe should be going in to life insurance and in sales. Some of you need to go to the home office, but there's a bunch of you ... Not a bunch, but there's a few of you in here that probably need to go into the life insurance business as an agent. And let me tell you how important it is." He said, "People buy automobiles. They have to be sold cigarettes." He said, "People buy ... liquor." He said, "They have to be sold life insurance." He said, "Some people, you know, have to be motivated to get certain things done, and so of the greatest occupations you can go into is a teacher, a preacher, or a life insurance agent. And that's how important it is for some of you in this room that is going to be insurance agents," and a lot of the people in the room laughed, including me. I soon learned that it was one of the greatest things that can be done, and that is to be in the life insurance business. It's a calling. It's almost like being a preacher. It's a calling. After a while, you want to help people get the job done. Some of them are agents that you're training. Some of them are clients that you're continuing to be with. Mark Miletello: Well, I agree. I think that ... I don't know. I guess especially after ... They say you're not in the business until you deliver your first claim. I hate that, but that's I think the way it is, that you don't realize the calling factor of being able to touch a family in the way that ... a life insurance agent can. I tell people that once the food's gone, once the attorney's gone, once the doctor can do no more, ... you're standing there with a considerable check to provide for the family.I agree and as far as your professional recommendations, Garry, you have ... written more books in our industry than anybody that I know of. I don't know that there's anyone out there. I know that you have systems and processes. You've got the activity funnel you gave me, the financial house process. Rather than share with us outside, and maybe you can share with us an outside inspiration ... Out of all your books, is there may be one that ... you would mention to a first-time reader that was following you? Garry Kinder: Yeah, the ... We have a bunch of ... books. In fact, right now, I'm writing a book with my daughter who's been on the MDRT. She's a speaker. She's been on the MDRT. I think maybe you heard her speak. She is a teacher. She's a speaker. She's got what it takes. There are the two best books right now, or out of a bunch of them is the ... 'Professional Sales Process.' Mark Miletello: Great. Garry Kinder: The 'Professional Sales Process.' It's how to sell life insurance from the very beginning of getting clients to the very end of getting referred leads, and ... not only getting referred leads but helping people ... as you say, when you settle a death claim. Mark Miletello: Right. Garry Kinder: I have settled several of those up to families where I was the agent. I sold the policy, got them to take the policy. That's a great feeling. It's really a great feeling. That's one book, 'The Professional Sales Process.' Now, for managers, the best book we have there is 'Building a Master Agency.' Those two books are A to Z. One for agents, one for managers. Mark Miletello: Well, I've read them both. I've read 'Building the Master Agency' several times. I just got to tell you, Garry, that I wish ... I know this has been twice as long as our normal show, and our normal podcast. I just felt it was a special moment to ... and it was an honor and a privilege to have you on board with us. I just got to tell you from the industry, on behalf of the industry, thank you for your energy, your mentorship. Thank you from the clients' perspective, all the lives that you've touched through the agents and managers that you've ... I know you got a lot going on today and a lot going on in a busy career still, and to take the time, I got to tell you how much it means to me. Garry Kinder: Well, I'm proud of you and what you've done, Mark. I'm glad that you're doing so well. Down the line, we can do this again in six months, or whenever you want to ... call me back and ... continue some of the things we didn't get to today. Mark Miletello: Well, you're right. We have so much more to do. Thank you for that invitation, I absolutely will look forward to that. To dive in, I think more of your coaching, and your processes, and your tips, and your books. We wanted to know about you and your life on this call. Thank you for that invitation. Garry, is there any last words you want to share, as well as maybe how people best can follow you? Garry Kinder: Well, stick in there. One of the things you and I talked about was ... from time to time, we're going to fumble, sometimes big sometimes small. No matter what happens, to the people I'm talking to, follow what Mark's talking about, and follow what I'm talking about here. You will do well. You are doing ... You're in a great business. It's a wonderful place to be, and help people ... accomplish their financial goals, because most of them need the help of a strong financial agent. Mark Miletello: Well, thank you, Garry. We love you and we appreciate you. I'm sure anyone can Google Garry, G-A-R-R-Y, Kinder, and you'll find as much information as you want to as far as how to follow him. Garry Kinder: That's right. Mark Miletello: If you like what you hear on this show, go to iTunes, rate and review us, and that way others can follow us. I'm Mark Miletello, your host, on 'Where the Insurance Pros Meet.'

A little late in sharing this story, but I'm happy I got to tell it.  I got to serve next to amazing Americans who all on their own volition drove and flew down to Texas to help in the wake of Hurricane Harvey.  I'm truly honored that I got to join the teams from Mountain Primal Meat Co. and Merging Vets with Players in bringing aid to the Beaumont, TX area. Deavon runs the interview on this one, and we cover: What led up to my decision to drive down to Texas with no idea where I was going, and how I got somewhere I could be effective. The efforts and victories of the Mountain Primal crew and the team from Merging Vets with Players. The turnout of "regular" Americans coming out of the woodwork to help their neighbors. What I'd do differently if something like this happened again and I wanted to help.

  Thank you for tuning in to Episode 127 of the Down Cellar Studio Podcast. This week's segments included:   Off the Needles On the Needles Crafty Adventures KAL News Life in Focus Ask Me Anything On a Happy Note Quote of the Week Thank you to this episode's sponsors: Plum Deluxe, Imagined Landscape Designs, Nekozuki Knits   In this episode you heard a promo of Tightly Spun, a new podcast starting up in January 2018 by Emily Straw. Click the link for details!     Off the Needles Greedo Pattern: Greedo by Lucy Collins in the Star Wars Even More Crochet (kit) Yarn: Vanna's choice Sage (face), cloudbourn DK (held double) for turquoise, Vanna's choice mustard Hook: C   Buddy Bunny Pattern: 4 Seasons Easter by Lydia Tresselt 6.77 US (3 patterns- chick, bunny and sheep) Yarn: Sprightly Worsted Hook: C   VAA Hat Pattern: Turn a Square Hat by Jared Flood Yarn: Malibrigo Rios in the VAA Colorway Needles: US 5 for brim, US 7 for body Cast on 92 stitches (less than called for). I always do stockinette longer than called call for- 6 inches instead of 5 before decreases.   Amethyst Stripes Socks Yarn: Patons Kroy Stripes in the Amethyst Stripes Colorway Pattern: OMG Heel by Megan Williams Needles: US 1.5 (2.5 mm)   Baker Street Hat Yarn: Knit Picks Felici Worsted in the Baker Street Colorway Needles: US 5 + US 7 Pattern: Turn a Square Hat (free) by Jared Flood Cast on 96 sts with US 5 6 inches before starting decreases Finished hat- 56 grams | 42 grams remain   Poppy Troll Hats Carina's Hat + Ella's Hat Pattern: Poppy Troll Hat by  Tawnya Myers (free crochet pattern) Hook: H Yarn: Red Heart Super Saver in 2 colors of pink: Carina: 5-10 year old child size Ella:1-4 year old child size.   Doll clothes for Riley’s doll Kelsey Gray and purple Poncho and matching Skirt Pink skirt and matching scarf Yarn: Fingering Weight Scraps Hook: C On The Needles   Striped Worsted Boxy Yarn: Switzer's Fiber Mill (unknown base/length skeins) Needles: US 7 & US 9 Pattern: Worsted Boxy by Joji Locatelli Will have to edit these needle sizes when I cast this back on. I had to rip out because my sweater was 68 inches instead of 64. Will cast back on soon!   Encore Turn a Square Yarn: Plymouth Encore Tweed Colorway 0217- Black with tan flecks Needles: US 5 + US 7 Pattern: Turn a Square Hat (free) by Jared Flood Cast on 9 (thicker yarn)   You've Been Elf'ed Socks Yarn: Cozy Knitter Bliss Base (80% SW Merino, 20% Nylon) You've been Elfed Colorway. Pattern: OMG Heel by Megan Williams Needles: US 1.5 (2.5 mm)   Simple Star Ornaments Free pattern from the Persia Lou Website  Yarn: scraps of fingering, worsted and bulky Hooks: Various sizes from C up to match yarn size. Used Mod Podge Stiffy to stiffen   Crafty Adventures  Photo Album Project with Kiddos: Simple Stories Sn@p Album 6x8 from Joann $18.99 (got on sale/with a coupon) Came with pages in there, divided page protectors and dividers with tab What I'd do differently next time: create the title page and left space for them to write their names and the years. Written more prompts for them to fill in the blanks. They were mostly interested in decorating not writing but that's understandable :)   KAL News   12 Months to Christmas KAL Click here to find about more about this KAL. Check out: Chat Thread & FO Thread  Prizes! Thundertwist hat from Greg Cohoon  Victorian Yuletide Ornaments- 1-5 by Jenn Sheelen Bundle Up Betty Doll and outfit patterns from AndreSue Knits   WIP’ing 2017 in the Butt Declare a WIP from the 1st Quarter of 2017 or earlier within the first 5 days of the month, posting a photo of it in the thread. Finish the project by the end of the month, update your post with your FO photo and you'll be eligible to win a Ravelry downloadable pattern of your choosing up to $8.   Pigskin Party KAL Wondering what this crazy KAL is? Check out this page which gives you the best overview with all necessary links. There's also a helpful "Start Here" Thread in the Ravelry Group Check out the Rules but if you still have questions, come over to the Questions thread and ask. We’re happy to help. Put your Name on the Roster then claim your spot in the End Zone Dance Thread where you'll track your points. For every 100 points, you'll earn an entry into the drawing for the Grand Prizes Continue to update this with all of the points you earn during the KAL Check out our amazing Sponsors; if you use their products, you'll earn more points per F Some of our Pro Shop Level Sponsors will be creating exclusive items for Pigskin Party participants. They may come out at different times and will likely be limited in quantities, so keep your eyes on this Exclusive Items thread in the group for all the latest news Scope out the prizes! Some will be given out during the KAL; some will be part of the Grand Prizes. Don’t forget to use #DCSPigskinParty17 on Instagram so we check out what you’re doing and you can be eligible for participation prizes. Thank you to our Pro Shop Sponsors! Atelier De Soyun  Colorful Eclectic Daisy Girl and Company Fancy Image Yarn Fibernymph Dye Works Inner Yarn Zen Joy in Rugging Knit Style Yarns Knitted Wit Knitters Brewing Company Knitty Kitty Bags Mekamika Nekozuki Knits Plum Deluxe Tea Prairie Bag Works Queen City Yarn Sunsoaked Yarns Woodsy and Wild Yarn Love   Key Details Mentioned in this Episode: November Participation Winners November Interception Winner December Interception Reminder Life in Focus Happiness Project December Focus: Listen to my body Going really well. Concrete, simple, can adjust to a busy season and I had ideas at the ready. That seems the key to success. Tracking something I'm doing every. Here are some examples: Stretching, foam rolling, going for a walk, going to bed early, reading before bed to quiet my mind, tea, no stress knitting. I took a bath with epsom salt and candles.   Ask me Anything In this episode I answered questions from Ravelry user knittergirlkatie about using citric acid to set color into sock yarn. I use the Knitmore Girls Tutorial I think it's helpful especially when using multiple colors/skeins in your project and especially for handdyed yarns. I haven't had as much bleeding/absorption with commercial dyed yarns but be careful with reds, blues, purples and neons.   On a Happy Note We had a 4 kid holiday sleepover with Eme (13)/ Oisin (9), Will (10), and Aila (8). We celebrated Dan's birthday, decorated the tree and enjoyed pancakes! Emelyn's school concert. I had an extra sock my bag so gave it to Megg (Eme's mom) so she and knit together. It was lovely! A non-stressful holiday season. There are a couple more things I'd like to do and things I'd like to get, but shopping is mostly done. Waiting on a few things to come in by mail so I can wrap- which I'll enjoy doing. Turns out I'm a Grinchalong fail. Still making gifts because I can...and my heart keeps growing 3 sizes. Quote of the Week   "Certainty is the opposite of growth."    --Kathleen Trotter on The Other F Word Podcast     Stay curious out there folks!   ------     For website: Thank you for tuning in!   Contact Information: Ravelry: BostonJen & Down Cellar Studio Podcast Ravelry Group Twitter: Instagram & Periscope: BostonJen1 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/downcellarstudio Sign up for my email newsletter to get the latest on everything happening in the Down Cellar Studio!  

Amanda and Jenn discuss grown-up American Girl stories, soft sci-fi, LGBTQ romance, and more in this week's episode of Get Booked. This episode is sponsored by What Counts As Love by Marian Crotty and 36 Questions That Changed My Mind About You by Vicki Grant.     Questions 1. Hi, I have just finished the latest installment of the Throne of Glass series and have read everything by Sarah J Maas, I also love most of the whole dystopian YA female lead genre ( loved the Cinder series, all the Grisha books, Red Queen, Graceling etc.) I am 20 and would read a big range of books from pretty much any genre was wondering if you had any recommendations for similar books that aren't necessarily YA ( or are I'll read anything!). A series of an author who has a lot of books of a similar type would be brilliant as once I find something I love I devour it !! Love the podcast and thank you for your help, --Holly   2. Hi ladies! When doing some cleaning, I found dozens of American Girl doll books and I was struck with nostalgia. I LOVED these books growing up - I still attribute these books with my deep love of history. As I was holding these books lovingly, I immediately thought to ask you two if you had any recommendations for "grown up" American Girl doll books. Any suggestions for historical fiction featuring strong and spunky female characters? Thanks, love the show! --Chelsea   3. Hi Amanda and Jenn, Listening to the Book Riot podcasts has increased the number of books on my TBR pile steadily for the past couple of months, thanks for all the great recommendations! What I'd like to ask you: I've read Mary Doria Russell's The Sparrow this year, and I loved it. I also read both of Becky Chambers' Wayfarers books and I loved them as well. Do you have any recommendations for soft sci-fi books? Thanks! --Jill (from Belgium)   4. Hello Amanda and Jenn, First of all, I love your podcast and have discovered many books and authors because of it. You guys both do an amazing job! My recommendation request is for my 7 year-old son. He recently read Ghosts by Raina Telgemeier (thanks to your recommendation from a previous episode) and then made his way through the rest of her work with Sisters, Smile, and Drama. He's read all four of these books over the course of the last week and I would like to find some read-alikes, preferably that are part of a series, for him to read next. He has read all of the books in the Diary of a Wimpy Kid series, Captain Underpants series, and several of the Big Nate books. Thank you in advance and keep up the awesome work! --Angela   5. Hi! I'm looking for some sweet romance to dive into. I'm not much for the genre, but sometimes you just need something to squeal about. Preferably something lgbtqai - though not so much about coming out or such as a major plot detail. Something light but sweet and if the couple are non male that would also be a huge plus! Thanks! --Sonja   6. Amanda & Jenn, First off, I love the podcast! Thank you for all the great recommendations. I've written in a few times with requests, so sorry if you keep seeing my name pop up! This time I'm writing requesting recommendations for my 15 year old son. He is a rather reluctant reader but very much enjoys listening to audiobooks when we take road trips. If we don't finish the audiobook in the car he asks me to buy it for him to finish in book form. He mostly likes dystopian novels, preferably with some type of corrupt government. He's enjoyed 1984, A Clockwork Orange, Fahrenheit 451 & Ready Player One. Not in that theme he read & enjoyed The Outsiders. His book suggestions mostly come from what his friends are reading in school. I've tried a few times to pick up books I thought he would like but haven't been able to find anything he got in to. I tried The Maze Runner, The 5th Wave & I can't remember what else. Any suggestions? Thank you! --Valerie   7.I am not a "classics" reader (I didn't love Jane Eyre. I know -Who am I?!) I did like The Awakening by Kate Chopin. Can you recommend another classic or semi-classic to read next? --Andrea   Books Discussed Giveaway! bookriot.com/bookstoregiveaway The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin Of Mess and Moxie by Jen Hatmaker The Tiger’s Daughter by K. Arsenault Rivera The Fifth Season by NK Jemisin Moon Called by Patricia Briggs An Extraordinary Union by Alyssa Cole Kopp Sisters books by Amy Stewart (Girl Waits With Gun) The Wanderers by Meg Howrey Provenance by Ann Leckie Eerie Elementary series by Jack Chabert (The School Is Alive) Chronicles of Claudette by Jorge Aguirre and Rafael Rosado (Giants Beware) Georgia Peaches and Other Forbidden Fruit by Jaye Robin Brown Out on Good Behavior by Dahlia Adler Want by Cindy Pon Brave New World by Aldous Huxley Warcross by Marie Lu Mrs. Dalloway by Virginia Woolf The Living is Easy by Dorothy West

Today we’re going deep into, what I feel is an epidemic in our society today - especially among women. It’s this idea that just because you can means you “should.” When the TRUTH is, just because you can doesn’t mean you “should.” You know I’m not a big “should” fan, and I’m not going to “should” on you today. This takes me back to a S.O.L. STORY from years ago. It was the early 1990s, and I was in chiropractic college. I was going to school full-time, and in class most days from 7:00/8:00 am - 6:00 pm. I was also teaching 6:00 am fitness classes, and studying every night until wee hours of the morning. Then I decided to add pregnancy, and having a baby into the mix. After my daughter was born, she was quickly added into my insane schedule. I’d awaken her at 5:00 am to breastfeed, then I’d teach my group fitness class. I’d go to class from 8:00 am - noon, then run home again to feed her. Then I’d go back to school until 6:00 pm. I’d run home and relieve my nanny, feed my daughter, then study until 11:00 pm. I'd feed her again before putting her to sleep, and go to bed myself. Only to start the entire routine over again at 5:00 am. I was saying YES to everything, accept myself! You’ve been there too, haven’t you? You may still be there… Then a dear friend said to me one day, “Shannon, just because you can doesn’t mean you should.” It's stuck with me ever since then. I'll never forget it. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. How often do we as women, humans, souls on planet earth, say YES to everything - simply because WE CAN? We look at our schedules, and we make it fit. That’s the first thing people do. They look at their schedule, then make a decision. What I'd like to encourage you to do (starting today) is to start thinking about what you’re saying YES to... Every time you say YES to something or someone else, it’s quite possible that you’re saying NO to what really matters to you, my dear.  Is this possible? Do you look at your schedule to see if “IT” fits, then say YES because you have time? Whoever said that the criteria for saying, "YES" is simply that you have TIME in your schedule to do it? How about trying a NEW CRITERIA? Before you say "YES" next time, ask yourself the following... 1. Does this FIT in with what I truly DESIRE? 2. Does this FIT in with how I desire to spend my days? 3. Does this FIT in the VISION of my life? 4. Does this FIT in my priorities? 5. Does this FIT in my life and life’s work? 6. And does it FIT WELL? I urge you to consider this new criteria today. Is it possible that you’re saying YES to everything, and you’re saying NO to the ONE THING that matters the most? Are you saying YES to EVERYTHING, and actually saying NO to having it ALL? Are you saying NO to the things that really matter in your life? OR are you saying YES, YES, YES, and not saying YES to anything that REALLY MATTERS to you? Please consider that you DON’T need to say yes to ANYTHING, unless you say YES to yourself first. This changed my life when I finally began to consider and apply it to my life. YOU MATTER, MY DEAR! Are you willing to say YES to you, the vision you have for your life, your dreams, that which you find sacred, and inspiring? To what you’re passionate about? Your priorities? Are you willing to say YES to all this FIRST? Because just because you can doesn’t mean you should. Oftentimes we’re not doing the things that we really really care about, and we’re saying I CAN’T to the things that really deserve to be a CAN. Am I making myself clear today? Maybe I’m the only one that’s ever done this, but I’m going to believe that I'm not...and MANY OF YOU are still doing this today. If you are, today’s the day to re-evaluate what you’re doing, and make a new decision about how you’re spending your time, and what you’re saying yes to. TODAY’S SACRED S.O.L. STEP: Please grab your SACRED S.O.L. D.A.T.E. JOURNAL (Daily Action To Engage with yourself.) Answer the following question: Where am I saying YES to everything, and because of it, I’m saying NO to what really matters to me? (You know what it is. Write it down.) Please circle it. And start saying NO to it. If you find it difficult to say NO, then try this technique. Instead of saying "NO" say, “I can’t say YES to that right now.” When you say NO, it means you’re saying KNOW - I KNOW WHAT I DESIRE. That’s YOU, my friend. If you desire a life that you love, and a life’s work that you love, then today’s the day. Please come over to WomenSippingOnLife.com and let me know how you’re doing. Thank you again for being here. I’m so grateful! xo Dr. Shannon. Inspiring minds that want to grow and hearts that want to know, so you can love you, your life, and your life’s work well. ONE SIP AT A TIME. A special thanks to the following souls for helping me launch our WOMEN SIPPING ON LIFE podcast… Intro/Outro done by Uni V. SOL  Outro music by Jay Man: Mind Over Matter (www.ourmusicbox.com)  Podcast cover design and web site done by: Pablo Aguilar (www.webdesigncreator.com) Podcast cover photo by Kate Montague of KM Captured (www.kmcaptured.com)

Denis Collins is an Renowned Visionary Thought Leader in Business and someone that likes to get things done. He is the CEO Smarter Dynamics, Former IBM Global Executive, Chairman of Smarter Senses (Shine Ireland), and widely acknowledged as a significant contributor to building /shaping the global brand/collaborative model in Munster. He has now been asked to help lead the National Strategy for economic growth in multiple regions via his IDA appointment to Chair IDA RDC (regional development committee). This is just some of the great roles and contributions that Denis has behind him. He's a New Yorker too. We chat about all of this and more during the show. During our conversation, Denis talks about his Primary motivation of bringing together Social and Commercial that leads to greatest impact.We talk about Denis’s background. Coming from New York originally, and his IBM career of over 20 years. When Denis was growing, he wanted to be NYPD cop. Finding a passion for computers, he joined with IBM straight from Fordham University, where he studied Communications and Business. Denis talks about Influences growing up and later in life.Denis talks about his first role in IBM working in the data centre and reflects back on this as his career evolved. Knowing how the technology worked, helped him greatly when talking with CIOs later. This gave him skills to be able to partner with clients. During the IBM career, he took on many different roles and learned something from each, moving into Management and Leadership roles as he progressed.We discuss his management style and approach to motivating teams. His focus is definitely more around Collaboration which became his primary approach. It’s his main one but he acknowledges that you need to be able to mix and balance them all of the styles to be successful.Denis talks about his 3 Silos approach to leadership and collaboration. These are:1. What is important for the company and address this2. What is good for the client and/or region3. What is good for the person doing the work?If you can bring these together, you’re on to a wining approach.We then go into my usual question and answers that touch on:• Decision making approach that is very balanced with data and experience• Learnings from mistakes - a great story from early in Denis’ career in a deal with Canada from his IBM days• Habits – good and bad with pacesetting as a core trait• Work-Life Balance – importance of finding this to recharge• Finding time to manage your own career• Giving and Receiving Advice• Finding a way to live your life in the best way – Family, Parish & Country approach• A view into what success means to Denis – health, wealth, happiness• Book Recommendation - The Catcher in the Rye – JD SalingerTo learn more about Denis or possibly get involved in some of the initiatives that Denis is working on with the IDA, he can be connected on LinkedIn here - https://www.linkedin.com/in/deniscollins/He encourages you to come with an idea from whatever field or location.I hope you enjoy the show with Denis Collins. What I'd really appreciate, if you enjoyed the show, is a retweet, a comment, a mention, a like, or any of the sharing you could do on your social networks so someone you know could enjoy it too. It's a free gift from you to them! And it helps grow the audience of the show. Links of note:Building & Leading a Relevant Global Cluster - https://youtu.be/7MsB2HjuoikCheers,Rob

Welcome everyone. It's awesome to have you here with me today. Today I'm here by myself, so I'm just going to go through a number of key things for you. I want you to make sure that you get so much out of today as we jump in and make a huge, huge different for you and your business. It's Colin Sprake here, and I want to go into what I call the 12 important beats of running a very, very, successful and powerful company. One thing I want you to understand, as we go through today is that you take lots of notes. It is so important. The way you get ahead is by taking action with what you learn from me on this amazing podcast. Let's get going. Let's get rocking, rolling with today. We're going to go through the 12 important beats of building a really powerful, successful, eight-figure business and way beyond that and it all starts with these really important beats. Beat number one, which I'm going to start with is really building a business with purpose. So many people are so focused on, "How do I make money?" It's all about, "Let me make more money" or "How do I make money in my business?" My goal for you is to start to think about how do you go and serve people? How do you really focus on serving more people because my mantra at Make Your Mark is the following: When you focus on dollars you'll have money to count; when you focus on people you have countless dollars. I really want you to think about this because so many people are focused on going out there and how to make money today. As you listen to this, think about this: are you just focused on making money or are you focused on serving people with what you have. When you serve people, I promise you, you'll come out with way more money than you ever thought possible. So think about this, beat number one is what is your purpose? Are you there to truly serve people to a higher level or are you just there to make money and that's it. If you're only focused on making money, yes, you'll make money, but I can tell you one thing, you'll make a lot more money when you start truly with thinking “how can I serve people today?” Go out there and change humanity. Change mankind. Give people a leg up with your products or service to get them ahead to have amazing life and amazing success. Beat number two is what is your freedom plan? I want you to think about this. Most people aren't thinking about whatever's happening in their life right now because people are so focused on “go bold, put a business plan together.” I meet so many trainers, coaches, what have you, especially around business saying, "Put your business plan together. Get your business plan rocking and rolling." The saddest part is, I'm a big believer in what you focus on expands, so if you're so focused on building a business plan, guess what happens, often your family and your life falls apart because you're so busy focusing on this business plan because you need a plan for both. I call it the freedom plan. When you take your life plan plus your business plan and you put them together that becomes your freedom plan. What does your life look like, your one year, two year, five years, 10 years out from now? What does your business look like, one year, five year, two year, five year, 10 years from now, because when you put the two together, that's when you get massive success. To me, just having a business plan doesn't cut it. Your support structure at home, your amazing love, the kindness of the people around you, your friends, your family, all those people that are supporting you, it's really important to understand that when you have that support that you really start to be thankful for that support. In particular, your life plan, your family plan, everything else because your life plan plus your business plan gives you your freedom plan. I want you to think about that as you read this today. I want you to be taking notes, writing down what's really important to you. You might be mobile right now, I understand that, but start to think about what you focus on expands. When you put your life plan and your business plan together, that's when you get true freedom. That's when you get this amazing business that generates so much money for you and so much cash for you as you go and serve humanity and serve your clientele. At the same time, you have this amazing family life, you travel, you enjoy whatever's important to you, you get those cherished moments. That's what I want you to be really understanding. Let's get your freedom plan working for you so that you get what I call a business with soul where you really have a successful business and the successful family simultaneously. Focus on putting together a really important freedom plan. Another thing I want to share with you, and I'm going to talk about this in later episodes, I want to share with you what I call beat number three, what is your vivid vision? What is your vivid vision for your business? Where do you see yourself in the next three to four years? I like to create a very detailed vivid vision. If you want to download my vivid vision you're more than welcome to. My vivid vision is live on my website at mymsuccess.com. The MYM stands for Make Your Mark. My vivid vision is there. I highly recommend you go over there, you click and you download the PDF of my vivid vision and you take that vivid vision and you start to create your own vivid vision three to four years from now. Really creating a powerful vivid vision for your business lets people know where you're going, what you're doing, and what have you. You need to share your vivid vision with everybody. Now, this is not just a vision statement, this is a vivid vision. Mine is six pages long, every single piece of my business, my family, everything else in terms of my freedom plan of where I see myself three to four years from now. Now, when you go and download it and you get this vivid vision, use my document as a template to create your own vivid vision for your business. I really want to make sure you're getting that vivid vision that you're looking for. The most important part of the vivid vision is it's so detailed of where you will be, but you're writing it as if you three years to four years from now and your team can see where you're at. When I come to hire people, the first thing I send them, we put an ad out, it could be on any kind of platform. We're looking for team members to come and join Make Your Mark or new employees to join us, when we do that, when people write back to us and they're super excited we send them out the vivid vision. We send out this PDF document. We don't ask them to reply to it. We don't ask them are they interested in working with us, we just say, "Thank you for your resume, here's the vivid vision for the company." We send it out to them, if they write back and they say, "I am super excited. I want to be part of that. I want to get to the next level by being with you on that vivid vision and that journey," and then we start to interview them and we bring them in and we go through a very said process of interviewing. Unless they respond back to the vivid vision we send out when they first send their resume in, we don't do anything with them. Why? Because we want the same people on the bus driving the bus forward, going to where we want to be in line with the vivid vision for the company because my vivid vision is so important to me to achieving the results that I'm looking for, and of course, to really gotten serve so many people out there. You really need to create that vivid vision that's got lots of feeling in it. People can see that there's growth in the company because here's the most important point. Your vivid vision gets shared with everyone. I share with prospective team members or employees. I don't like the word employees. I love the word team. At the same time, share it with your vendors because your vendors will love to know what your growth plans are so they can prepare accordingly as well. You share it with your current employees or your current team members. You share that vivid vision with your family, your friends, everybody. Why? Because you want them to support you on your vision in terms of where you're going on this, and it's a massive journey of where you're going. At the same time, you want to make sure that your vendors know there's opportunities to grow with you. You want your team members or employees to know there's so much opportunity with you for them to get to the next level because employees want to know, "What is the growth with your company? What's the growth opportunity?" Everyone wants to grow, but if you don't have a vivid vision that outlines what you're going to be doing and where you're going, they just think that they're going to come to a J-O-B every day and do the same job day, after day, after day. The best thing about a vivid vision for employees or your team members is they see the opportunity and growth and that they can actually get to the next level. The next important part, beat number four, what are your core values for your company? Now, you might wonder, what do you mean by core values? The core values set the culture of who you are. When we hire at Make Your Mark, we are so set on this because here's the challenge. If you don't have core values, I mean, everyone has core values but really good core values that drive your company forward, you end up hiring people that are really, really, really good at what they do but sometimes they irritate the snot out of you. Seriously, sometimes they just really irritate you. I'm sure if I ask you this question, "Have you ever worked with somebody who is extremely good at what they do, very skilled in what they do but they irritate you to the core?" Here's the reason why, is because they don't have the same core values as you. In my company, we have very set core values. We have six core values. I'm going to share them with you today. Directly on our website as well you can definitely download them at mymsuccess.com and then look at what our core values are. We have the six of them: Unconditional gratitude, open to possibilities, commitment to excellence, respect individual, community of trust, and integrity. Those are our six core values and each one of them is also defined because when you have core values it's really important to define each of your core values. The reason being, because if I went to a number of my team members at the office and I said to them, "Tell me what integrity means?" Every single one of them would give me a different definition, maybe slightly different, but definitely in their own words would be different. At Make Your Mark, our definition of integrity is doing the right thing at the right time all the time. When you put a definition to each of the core values, then when I ask my team members, "What does integrity mean to Make Your Mark?" They can give me exactly what integrity means and I'll get the same thing from each one of them. Now, this drives the culture because most people don't hire on culture, they'll hire on skill set, talent, what have you. That's great, but if people don't have the same core values as you, they will irritate you. In fact, often they become a cancer in your organization. How many times have I ever worked with a company, and I can't tell you how many times this has happened where I'll work with a company, I go in, I start doing work with them and there's one person that does not have the core values. They’re really good at what they do, so the company owners keep this person on because they're good at what they do, but the challenging part is they’re a cancer to the organization. In fact, really good people that are good at what they do and have the company core values actually end up leaving the company because of that one person that's a cancer that does not have the core values. That person often starts the talk around the water cooler, the backstabbing, all the negative stuff often comes from the person who does not share your core values. Make sure you have your core values. The maximum number of core values you should have -- which I'm going to talk about this on upcoming episodes -- is seven core values. In fact, anything between five to seven is really, really good. Core values can be anything. Really understand what your core values are, and remember, you have to live your core values. These aren't things you would like your company to be, because that really doesn't help you. This is who you are today that's created the culture that you have. When you define your core values, you'll be amazed at the exceptional culture you will start to develop. In fact, you'll have people lining up to work for you and you'll have people really devoted to being with you and people lining up to buy your products and services. It is so cool when you have the right core values and you live them every single minute of the day. Let me go to beat number five. Beat number five is really important because I want you to think about really doing what's right for people. So many people don't really realize this, that they go out and they just do business, but really, are you doing what's right for people? My goal for you is to really think about doing what's right for them. I want to ask you to really think about three questions, what's working in your industry or marketplace right now that you will copy? The second thing is, what's not working in your industry right now or possibly what's working but is unethical and you don't agree with? I'm going to give you an example in a moment. Thirdly, what's missing in your industry? You answer these three questions, you will number one understand what is right in your industry, but also you'll be doing things that are right for people and at the same time, you will really become me only in your marketplace. Let me give you an example of this. So, what's working? When I started out in this industry, people called us a seminar company. I was like, "Well, I'm not really a seminar company." I went out to as many seminars as I could, seminars, workshops, retreats and I figured out what was working for these people and I copied it. That's okay. The second thing was, what's not working? There was a number of things that weren't working for them, which I did not copy, but there were a number of things which were working for them which I considered not to be ethical or manipulative or what have you, and I decided not to copy them. Like the slash and burn, run to the back of the room like most people teach. I don't agree with that in any way or form. I'm all about making sure people get immense value and they get what they're looking for when they come out to our programs. Then the third thing we did, as I went out to all these seminars, workshops, what have you, I was listening to what's missing. Most people said to me, "Yeah, it's so cool. I go out to these events. I go out to seminars and get all pumped up, all excited, but guess what? I feel down after three or four days and then I go back to normal and it never gets implemented." So we created a whole bunch of accountability groups at different levels for different business owners to really help them understand that you can implement and we hold you accountable to implementing. That made us unique in our market space because we became this company, and yes, of course many people have copied us since then, but we were the leaders in this industry for creating amazing seminars, a system of seminars incorporated with these accountability groups, holding people to a higher standard so that they implement and they get the results because my reputation to me is the most important thing. I'm sure your reputation is to you as well. You want people to be using your product. You want people to be using your service, whatever it might be because when they use it and the implement and they get the right results, that's when they rave about you. I'm not a big fan of raving fans in my business, I want evangelists for my business, going out and going crazy about who we are and what we do to other people out there to bring people in, so we can truly MYM their business for them. That's what excites me so much. I want you to be a leader in your industry. Really think about what's working, what's not working, and what's missing and start to think about how can you start to get yourself to be me only in your industry. When you start to think about what's missing as well, just start to think about really, truly what's missing. So many people don't get what's missing and their clients will tell them every single day what's missing but they not listening because they are so stuck in it's only done this way in my industry. Start to think about how can you do it other ways. When I have people just like you that are listening come to me and say, "Colin, can you assist me with my business?" I say, "Yes, I can help you. I can get you ahead. I can help you get to where you want to be." The big thing you have to do though, is understand that if you want to get ahead, then you need to make sure that you are listening to what takes place. So many people aren't listening to what their clients are telling them every single day. When your clients are listening to you, and the reason why I get people ahead so quickly is because I am not in your industry. When I'm not in your industry I give you advice outside of your industry because the worst thing you can ever do is listen to somebody who's broke in your industry. When a person's broke in your industry and saying, "Well, the economy is tough right now. This is not working right now. It takes two to five years to be successful in our industry. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." If they're all broke in your industry and not making the money that you desire to make, then don't listen to them. I believe the worst person you can listen to is someone who is broke in your industry. Listen to the rock stars in your industry. Listen to the people who are making more money than you ever want to make, who are making the big bucks. Listen to them and ask them their advice, because I can tell you one thing, when you listen to people that are super successful in any industry, they are not thinking the same way as the people who are not making money, who are broke in your industry. Think about it, who can you get in your industry who can absolutely help you get to that next level? Beat number six, know why. This goes back to being earlier about really knowing your purpose, know why you do things because remember, it's not just about focusing on the money, focus on the people. I now have 49,000 clients across the world and these 49,000 clients that I serve every single day, I never stop thinking about how to make their lives better. In fact, when I get out of bed in the morning, my number one thing that gets me out of bed with an absolute excitement and a bounce in my step is going to the mail and getting out gratitude cards, gratitude letters, letters of appreciation from our clients who say thank you for changing my business, changing my life, what have you. Understand what is driving you. If you're counting your money in your bank account every day, that might not be the thing that should be driving you. It should not be, but of course it's good to focus on your money because what you focus on expands, but truly what are you doing for mankind? What are you doing for humanity? Are you getting people ahead to the next level? What drives you? I can tell you what drives me is knowing why I do what I do. I do what I do and my why is live on my website as well. You can go read my why. I was suicidal as a child. I attempted to commit suicide twice. My life has become so abundant. Those challenges in my childhood, guess what, those are just those challenges. One thing I can tell you about that what it did for me though, it helped me understand my fellow human beings, so when they're in a tough place I can actually serve them and get them to the next level. I know why I do what I do. I love watching the underdog succeed. Just like many of you listening here, I want you to get ahead like you've never got ahead before, to get results you never, ever dreamt possible before, but you have to know why you're doing it. Don't be doing it just for the money, be doing it to serve humanity. Be doing it to be a better business owner, to make a difference on this planet. I hope you really get that as you listen to this today. Beat number seven. This is my favorite one. We are stuck in a place right now where I think we've lost community in the world. It used to always be you'd walk down the street and you'd say, "There's Bobby's mom and there's Mary's grandma," and what have you. Now as people walk down the street, walk through the mall, and lots of times we don't even know who's who, we just walk past. People always got their faces stuck in technology and screens and what have you. We used to be a real good community-based marketplace where we always thought about community first as we and then me as secondary. That was 30 years ago. Now, in the 21st century, so many people are focused on me first and then we. I believe in my heart, and you should think about this, in terms of being successful the next biggest businesses will be ones that build community. Look at the massive community with all the social media out there. Some of the most successful companies right now are those that are building community, having their clients talk to one another. Now, you say, "I don't want my clients to talk to one another." Here's the challenge, if you don't have your clients talk to one another or you're nervous of them talking to one another, here's the challenge with that, then you must be doing something wrong. If your clients talk to each other and they love what you do, it becomes like this pandemic of love for you, them going out and propagating what you have. As you listen to this, think about how do I build community in my business. How do I get my business to that next level where community is absolutely everything? Go back to a we-based society and then a me instead of being focused where we're at today where it's me first and then we. That's beat number seven is build amazing community in your business. Beat number eight is all around gratitude. I'm all about gratitude. In our business every single week we send out around 40 gratitude cards. This is not something we add to our business each week, it's part of what we do. All my team members are requested to give out one, two, maybe three gratitude cards every week. It could be just supplier, to a student, or to a vendor. It could be completely to anybody. The key thing is giving gratitude is so important. So many people don't give gratitude's. People think they're vendors should be grateful for having them as a client. I'm a big fan of being so thankful to my vendors. So many people don't think of how important their vendors are. If you treat your vendors poorly and they go see another client that could use your product or service, do you think they going to recommend you? Probably not, so look after your vendors, your clients, your family, friends, whatever all equally. Don't treat certain people with a certain amount of respect and others not. Every single person is important. Give gratitude every single day. In fact, when I wake up in the mornings I spend 10 to 15 minutes lying in bed every morning just giving gratitude for the most amazing things in my life, gratitude for my wife, gratitude for my daughters, gratitude for my business, gratitude for you, the listeners, to this podcast. I am so grateful for every single person in my life because I know the more I give out gratitude the more the universe gives me to be grateful for. Beat number eight is give gratitude. Beat number nine is hire with intention. This is how you create an amazing eight-figure business, what I call how do you create a heart-centered eight-figured business with heart because it's all about putting the heart and soul into what you do. Love your clients. Love people. I'm going to go through this with you in detail. Beat number nine is hire with intention. Number one, only hire A players because if you hire a B player or a C player, guess what, they'll only hire people that are B or C players. A players want A players on their team, so only hire A players in every area of your company. Your clients success is your success. Never forget that. Most importantly think about it a little bit differently. I don't hire employees, I hire team members. I want people to be on my team so we can have an amazing team at Make Your Mark. We don't have the word can't in our office, we only think about how can I. Think about this for yourself. Every time you think to yourself can't you say, "Stop. Terminate. Give up. Won't go any further." Think about how can I serve people. At Make Your Mark, we work together it's not for each other. Nobody works for me, we work together as a team, collectively to the success of the company. I work with our team members, nobody reports to me. All these funny, old, archaic 19th and 20th century terms, to me are gonzo, man. We work together. We work with each other and in every situation verify and clarify. I cannot stress this enough. How many people do not verify and clarify situations. Something happens at the office, somebody does something and you get so mad and you only realize, sadly, that the people that you verify and clarify ... Maybe someone did something or put something away or filed something away for you and you get all mad about it and then when you verify and clarify, you actually realize they were helping you and serving you. Be very careful to judge things and draw conclusions to things until you verified and clarified every situation in every event. When you do that, you'll have less conflict in your office plus you'll have an exceptional culture in your office as well. One of my favorite things for you to think about is be quick to compliment, not to complain. So many people are so busy complaining every single day ... Here's the challenge, if you complain the universe gives you more to complain about. When you compliment, the universe gives you more to compliment about. What do you want today? Do you want more to complain about or more to be complimented about? Be very, very careful because what you put out there is what you get back. At the same time, when you hire with intention, at Make Your Mark we look at things a little bit differently is we always hire with looking at people's resumes, we look at their disk profile, which of course could be Myers/Briggs a number of different profiling companies that are out there. We look at sacred gifts, which is really awesome determining one of the 24 sacred gifts and looking at which sacred gifts require what role in the company. If you want to learn more about that, you're more than welcome to send me an email and I'll happily chat you about that or connect with me via our website as well. Then the fourth thing we do is a destiny profile. That destiny profile is so awesome because it's actually using Feng Shui. My entire office is Feng Shuied. I believe all around the energy of everything that happens in life and Feng Shui is not just about your environment. Feng Shui is actually also where the human destiny is in terms of the people you're hiring. In fact, at Make Your Mark I have this beautiful wall in our office called our family wall where every person we hire, their profile board with their disk profile, their sacred gifts and their destiny profile are put on the wall. Next to them, when they join us on the first day we actually give them this beautiful package what consists of a dream board, our core values with all their definitions, a photo frame. We have a cool photo frame we give every one of our team members that joins us the first day they join where they can put a photograph of the most important people in their lives. It could be family. It could be friends. It could be their best friend. It could be their dog. It could be their cat, whatever it is. I give them a copy of my book and I get this amazing binder, which was our welcome binder, which our team binder to welcome them to the team. They get a t-shirt for the company. We have this beautiful blue carpet that rolls up to our reception area and as the person comes in on their first day, all our team members come running out. We stand either side of the blue carpet, they walk up to our reception counter and right on the reception counter is this beautiful package with a gorgeous plant with a motivational stone in that has a word on it. That word is what we determined from when we've interviewed them, so when they join us they have this whole package. The dream board is so cool. It says, "My Dreams" across the top. It's 8 1/2 x 11 and they then have 24 hours to fill that out. Then we have this family wall with their profile already done for them. We add their dreams to it. Here's what I want you to think about as a business owner. If your team members are helping you achieve your dream, your vivid vision to where you want to go, what are you doing to help them achieve their dreams. This podcast today, I just want you to think about what are you doing for the benefit of your people at your office? Really important. I want you to think about that. Number ten. I hope you're learning a ton from today because these are key nuggets I know can actually help you get ahead. Energy is everything. I want you to think, "What is the energy of your office?" This is beat number 10. We don't have any departments at Make Your Mark. We have divided everything to pods. Whales swim in pods. The reason being because I want high energy in our pods. I don't want departments. Departments have this whole archaic way of looking at things. I am the visionary pod of Make Your Mark and then we have the prosper pod, which is myself and two of my key team members who are looking at the prosperous nature of everything that we do. Our abundance pod, which would typically be called the financial department in the company, our abundance pod is absolutely incredible. Our abundance pod does all our finances because I believe words have energy. When you put the right words in each area of your company that's when you start to get different results. Our growth pod of course is sales and marketing. We have our love pod. Our love pod are our client care specialists. So everyone, they love our clients. We love them. They go out and they make sure they create love in every aspect of the company. They are called our love pod because without our clients we have zero. We have nothing. I don't drive the cars I drive, to have the house I have, have the beautiful team and office I have without our amazing clients. Are you loving your clients every day or are you just counting their money and taking their money from them? What are you doing to help your clients, love your clients, respect them, honor them for every dollar they give you because without them you have nothing. And then our final pod at Make Your Mark is our creation pod, which are the people that put all our events on, they create this amazing environment and the exceptional events and then everywhere in form. These are the people that put every little detail to every one of our events to make our events absolutely exceptional. When people come in during the day, we have this thing called word of the day, so when people walk in the first thing they do is they put a word of the day on the board. Every person, before they sit at their desk or before they sit in their area writes a word of the day on the board. Then we have a thrive meeting where we share the words. We have this most amazing environment where ... Of course, energy is everything, which is beat number 10 ... the environment we're in. We have lots of great team fun activities. Most importantly, I'm a big wine lover and you'll learn this about me as we go through these episodes together. I love wine, so every Friday afternoon we have wine Friday's, where our team, we break at 3:00 pm, we have a glass of wine together. We discuss fun stuff on the weekends. We have just a lot of great, high energy, lots of interaction because I care for every single one of my team members and I want you to care for your team members as well. Remember, you have to have employees if you want to leverage yourself and get to the next level. If you say, "I hate employees," you are crazy. Employees are your biggest leverage because while you're away your business keeps on running and you make money and they make money. If you don't want employees, every time you go away and your business virtually comes to a standstill, then you're crazy. I like to take three or four months off a year. Without employees, I would never be where I am today and I want you to think about that as well. We also change the energy of everything as well. We look at each day of the week very different. We have Money Monday's, Terrific Tuesday's, Winning Wednesday's, Thriving Thursday's, and Fabulous Friday's. Energy is everything. What words are you putting to everything that you do. Of course, most importantly we love to celebrate. I want you to think about and what is a hashtag you've created for your business? We have the #MYMfamily because we have such an amazing community across the country, across the nation, across the globe. Our family is really important to us. We have this MYM family, this amazing community. What community are you creating? Beat number 11. I hope you're getting a ton from this today. I hope you're taking detailed notes. You might listen to the episode or read through this transcript many times, often to start to think, "How do I get my business to a place where people line up to work for me and people line up to buy my products and services?" Communication is key. Within Make Your Mark we have the Make Your Mark University, which is internal training program for all our team at the office, all our faculty, all our facilitators, all our trainers all come in once a year to the Make Your Mark University. We put them through this university to really make sure we have consistency in all our training, consistency in the messages that we have so that we sing one song and we sing it often. We have consistency in the words in terms of the vocabulary we use and the verbiage we use and the jargon we use at the office and that also our team is always living our core values. Then beat number 12 and I want you to think about this in all areas of your life because people only remember two things from you, the experience they had with you and then number two, how you made them feel. Now, people think this is only for customers. No way, it's for every person in your life because when a person gets up from the table with you, from your living room from you, from your boardroom, from your office, in everywhere in form, the only thing they remember is what was the experience with you and how did you make them feel. People think this is only a thing that clients remember. No, your team remembers it too, your staff, as well as your vendors. My goal for all my staff or my team is when they go home in the evening, they sit around their dinner table with their family members and their friends and they talk favorably about my company. Why, because I want them to talk so favorably about that experience and how we make them feel at our office so that people say, "I would love to join your company." In fact, I'm one of the few companies out there that gives five weeks of paid leave the day a team member joins us. Why do I do that, because that's the way I would like to be respected. People need time out. People need time away from the office in order to get the results that you're looking for and if people work themselves to a bone and only have one or two weeks off a year, you're crazy, man. In Europe, it's four weeks, five weeks, six weeks, seven weeks, even eight weeks in some countries of paid leave a year. People think that's crazy. I'm telling you, it's the best thing you can do for your business, of course if you can afford to do it. Why, because when you give people time off they can recharge their batteries and get to that next level. Maya Angelou said this the best, and bless her she's no longer with us, "People will forget what you said. People forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." Think about your last interaction with your spouse, your kids, as a client and you maybe went to a restaurant somewhere, how did they make you feel because that's the only thing you talk about. Guess what? That's the only thing your team talks about, your clients talk about, your vendors talk about are the experiences with you. I want you to remember this as we finish off here today. Remember, your culture determines your level of success. What culture are you creating in your business today? I want you to really think about it. I am brutally direct about this because you could have the best people on your team, skilled, awesome, but if they don't share your culture, your core values, and understand who you are and where you're going you'll get to where you want to be, but maybe not retain your clients or retain your staff. You might have high staff turnover rates. My goal for you is to realize you can create a culture of success, amazing success. Think about it for you today, what culture are you creating? What are your nuggets you're going to write down from this episode today? What are the key nuggets you're going to write down to get you to the next level? One of my best friends and I spent an amazing time with him in Necker Island earlier on this year is Sir Richard Branson. Sir Richard Branson said it the best, "Clients do not come first, employees come first. If you take care of your employees they will take care of your clients." That's what you have to realize. You treat your employees like gold, they will treat your clients like platinum. You're treating your employees like trash, what do you expect them to do with your clients and how do you expect your clients to feel. What a great comment from Sir Richard Branson. What I'd like you to think about today as we end off here is what are you doing that's going to be different? What are you going to do to get your business to the next level around your culture? I can tell you I didn't think much about this in the beginning, but now, I can tell you it's one of the most important things for me. I have got my business to a level where we're eight-figures, multiple eight-figures, now I'm going on to nine-figures and that's not to brag. I want you to think about it, and I don't care if you're a solo-preneur or a business owner with many employees or many team members, think about what culture are you creating and what results are you looking for? I am so excited for you. Please feel free to jump on our website, download my WHY statement, download my vivid business. They're right there at mymsuccess.com. Most importantly, I cannot wait to serve you and see you at the next level, hear your comments. Keep listening because in a week's time we've got an amazing, amazing interview coming up so make sure you're ready for the interview it's coming up with one of my really, really great friends who's really going to give you his brutal truth on what it takes to build a successful business no matter what level you're at to get the results you're looking for. Thank you so much. Keep being awesome. Keep being amazing. Keep building and most of all keep implementing. Have a great day everyone. Bye.

You ever watch Top Gun and say, "That was great, but what it really needs is to be about 75% shittier, less than 90 minutes long, and featuring slower aircraft?" If so, Fire Birds is the movie for YOU! You wouldn't say that, though, right? It's important that I know you don't ask for things to be actively shittier for no reason. Please tell me privately that you wouldn't do that. I don't know WHAT I'd do with myself if you didn't. Anyway, Nic Cage stars alongside Tommy Lee Jones and Sean Young in the most tepid, turgid movie you're likely to see that's this short.

Intro I mentioned last week that I was speaking at the Secure360 conference here in the Twin Cities, and at that time I was preparing a talk called Pentesting 101: No Hoodie Required. I was so nervous that I've basically spent the last week breathing heavily into paper bags and wishing I was on sedatives. But I have good news to report in today's episode, friends! The talk was very well received and the attendees didn't get out torches and pitchforks! #winning! So today's episode (audio below) talks more about the public speaking experiences and highlights some lessons learned: Things I'd do again next time I'd not tempt the demo gods and still pre-record my hacking movies ahead of time. I saw some people do live demos of very technical things and it did not go well for a few of them :-( I would still spend way too many hours cutting together my movies in iMovie so that they followed a good tempo when presented live I would still have a copy of my presentation on two different laptops, 3 USB thumb drives, a cloud copy, and a copy sent to the Secure 360 folks just in case. Backups, backups, backups - am I right? What I'd do differently next time I'd hopefully have the preso done a few days (weeks, even!) ahead of time and practice it in front of colleagues to get some feedback. I'd still have a theme to the presentation, but rather than something specific like Terminator 2, maybe I'd go even more general and pick a movie/character that could appeal even more to the masses. I wouldn't worry so much about having a presentation that "nails it" for everybody. That's just not possible! We're all coming from different backgrounds and skillsets. It's not gonna be a home run for everybody.

All right, welcome back to all our Becoming Your Best Podcast listeners. Excited to be with you today, wherever you are. Driving in a car, at work, at home, what an honor that you would take the time to listen. And I really wanna make this worth the few minutes that we have together, and this is gonna a quick hitter. I was just talking with someone, a good friend of mine named Dean, and he said, "You know what I love about these podcasts, is they're short and sweet. I can listen to it on the way to work during a 20-minute drive." And he just...he really commented that, you know, "I love the power of it in a short amount of time," and he's exactly right. And that's the intent, is that you can listen to this and have some quick hitting ideas that can really impact your life in a short amount of time. Now this focus is on principle number five, Live the Golden Rule in Business and in Life. Now normally, this would be an outward focused principle, treating others right. I mean, I love what Maya Angelou said. She said, "People won't remember what you said or what you did, what they'll remember is how you made them feel." And typically, isn't that the truth? This principle also has to do within the business setting of creating a world class customer experience, both for the internal and external customer. Well, today is gonna be a little different, because I've really over the last month been focused on people, and watching people and observing, and trying to learn from them. You know what, what makes the difference in their life? And someone asked me the question that sparked this curiosity about a month ago, and the question was, "How do you give someone desire?" Oh, now that's a doozy of a question, isn't it? Like the trillion-dollar question if you could really answer that. And actually, I've been trying to answer that for three years. That was a book I wanted to write, desire, and I still wanna write that book. And so I've really been fascinated by that. How do you help someone have desire? And how does that question pertain to this principle? Well, let's turn this principle inward for this particular podcast, because what I found is, it's really difficult to be transformational and help lift someone to a better place, if we don't see ourselves in a positive light. And so a lot of this is a reflection of ourselves and how do we view ourselves. And as soon as we turn those tables and flip that switch, where you start to view yourself in a positive light and we start to see ourselves differently, it becomes much easier to then turn around and help others and help them get to a better place. And that really starts with desire. I mean, let me just give you an example here. I'll only use first names. I just finished an event in St. Louis, met some incredible people, and there's always a handful, one or two or three that just really stand out. I mean, like a light...like a lighthouse, and one of those was Jim. And within maybe 20 to 30 seconds of him talking with me, I knew that he was an incredible person. And since then, he's shared a couple of emails, I mean, this all in last couple of weeks here. He's just on fire. And his comment during the event was, "Man, I just feel like the rust is falling off here. I'm just feeling this fire starting to come within me that I used to feel, but I had lost along the way." And I'm so excited to watch what's gonna happen with Jim here over the upcoming months and year. And then there's another person who, Jamie, who's our VP of Business Development just talked with, and I'm just gonna make up a random name and her name is Jill. And she's with a company, she heads their HR department, and she was interested in bringing Becoming Your Best in to do some training for their company at some point the future, and she has the book. And the way she responded to Jamie on this call, he just had a few minutes go with her was, "Yeah, I really wanted to get around to this Jamie, but I've just been so busy. I haven't been able to even look at anything." And here is the irony, Jamie just asked her, "Have you read the book?" And she said, "No, no, no, no, I haven't, but I'll get to it eventually." And he just commented, "Hey, you may wanna consider chapter four on prioritize your time. There are some great ideas there that really can help you with time management." And her response was just awesome. She said, "I'm the queen of time management. I don't need it. I've got everything figured out. When it comes to time management, I'm the best." And she had just got done telling him how chaotic her life was and how busy she was. And let me contrast that with an email that Jim just sent regarding pre-week planning and the impact that it's having in his life. He said, and this is a quote from his email. "I'm amazed at the results of my first day using pre-week planning. I got so many meaningful things done today and it truly seems like I did nothing. So productive, but not busy. Ah, that's transformational. Such high leverage activities, I'm gonna have to come up with more activities." He said, "I couldn't believe all the things I got done, but I truly never felt busy in the process." And this is coming from someone who prides himself on being busy. "I now seek to be productive." In other words, there's a total difference in mindset between Jim and this lady who we'll just call Jill on the phone. And so I would ask each of us to look inward at ourselves, and are we more like Jim, where we just have this hunger and thirst to better ourselves or are we more like Jill, where we shut out potential learning and growth for ourselves, because we say, "I've got it all figured out, I don't need that." And we miss some enormous opportunities that could potentially be right in front of us. And so that's the beginning of this podcast is, each person listening, first turning that mirror on to themselves and each of us looking in the mirror and asking, "Where are we at in our receptivity? Are we willing to learn? Do we have a humility about us?" And I'm gonna assume that if you're listening to the podcast, then the answer is absolutely yes. Now let's go back to what we talked about here and turning the mirror inwards and helping someone to include ourselves, get that desire. There are two focuses on this podcast that would really have an impact on each one of us. And the first of those, if you have a pen and paper, I'd even ask you to write this down. So if you're in a place where you can write, go ahead and grab a pen and paper. Write down these words. Have, do, be. Have, do, be. And this is what unfortunately a lot of the world thinks, is, first they need to have something, then they can do it, and then they will become that. I mean, I've heard some people say, "Yeah, once I get money, then I'll be able to do all these great things and become this really generous person. I'm gonna give a lot of those resources away once I have it." And they're seeing life exactly backwards. Have, do, be. And I wonder internally, how many times I've thought that in different capacities. How many times have you thought this? Where first, once you have it, then you can do it, and that will allow you to become that. And it's really, in my experience, exactly opposite. It's be, do, have. And this applies both personally and professionally. You wanna be a great manager, you wanna be a great mother, father, it doesn't matter. Across the board, it's first, we become that, then once we are that person, that allows us to do, and then we have. And that's why so many people wonder, well, why don't I have? Because we're looking at the equation backwards. It should be, be first, that allows us to do, and then the rewards come. The results start to show up and that's in the form of the have. Well, how do you be first? And this starts to go back to desire. And here's a few thoughts for you. There's one called the five-hour rule, and this is a powerful Elon Musk, Oprah Winfrey, they live by this. And this is investing one hour a day back into yourself. In other words,... Maybe it's called your power hour. Whatever you wanna call it. There's different terminologies for it. It's your power hour, it's for you, it's one hour invested back into you. It could be exercise, it could be meditating. This morning I got up and read for 45 minutes from three different books, and just had an incredible amount of ideas about what I could do in my life, and it was just awesome. That was 45 minutes of reading, and then I went over and took about 10 minutes to work on some charts for the stock market, sharpening that skill. So there was an hour invested in myself this morning. What can you do every day to invest an hour back into yourself? That's part of being. It's not having first, it's being so that you can do and then ultimately reap the results and have. If you wanna lose weight, well, be first mentally there, take the time, invest so that you can do, and then you are gonna have the result you want to have, as an example. Well, here's another one. Once you incorporate the five-hour rule, set aside at least 5% of your income to invest back into yourself. So if you're making $100,000, that's at least $5,000. Some of the most successful people we know will take 10% to 15%, because think about what your most valuable resource is, it's your mind. And it's those tools and skills that we put in our minds. So Jill, that hypothetical person, she had all these skill sets in front of her, but not the mindset to actually use them. "I'm the queen of time management, I don't need any help in this arena." For me I would never say those words. That would be a huge internal red flag for me that I've stopped learning. As soon as I've stopped learning, it's time to hang up the hat. It's time to be done. So now this really gets into the question that I asked at the beginning the podcast, which is, how do we get desire, help someone else have desire so that they can be first, do, and then have. And this is a reflection of ourselves first, right? So here are two things that I found that will help give someone a desire, and it helps in the be, so that we can then do and have, and that is to read often. And if you're not actively reading, I invite you to try this. Choose a few books, either around leadership, motivation, whatever it might be, and take 15 minutes a day, and start your day reading. Just see what that does to your mind, it's gonna be like a fire that starts growing within you, when you have this as a habit. The second way to get desire and to really begin this process of be, do, have, is to put yourselves in an environment where a seed can grow. And that's what I've done in becoming your... We have several coaching clients and others who say, "You know, this has totally transformed my life, the 12 principles. Becoming Your Best, I just...and this fire, it's been an incredible year, but my spouse doesn't want anything to do with developing a vision or talking about goals. She just doesn't wanna do... You know, she doesn't want anything to do with this," or vice versa. "He doesn't want anything to do with this." Well how do you help them have desire? Helping give someone an opportunity to put that seed in the ground and allowing it to grow is one of those things. And so, attend seminars where you can. Make it a fun way. We have the Breakthrough Leadership Conference as an example. It's actually gonna start for us in two days, the next will be in October. People come out as a couple, sometimes they bring their team, and it's an incredible experience because now they're talking about the same things. They have a similar beginning point. And so that's number one, is, instead of have, do, be, shift the equation to be, do, have. And being is first of all, us looking at ourselves asking, "What can we do to see ourselves in a more positive light, to invest in ourselves." The five-hour rule, one hour a day for you. 5% of your income back into your own development. Getting a personal coach. Attending a seminar that will allow you to see things differently and think differently, sharpening your saw. That's number one. And number two in this equation, to help us see things differently and help you see yourself in a positive light, is to really watch your words. This has become an increasingly big deal in my life as I watch this. And it requires more and more self-restraint on my part not to say something when I see another person really tearing their own selves down. Sometimes we are our own hardest critic. Now think about this, if someone was to record your thoughts and write them down after an entire day, what would that conversation look like? In other words, how do you talk to yourself? What kind of words go through your mind? What kind of conversation are you having? Is it an upbeat conversation of all the things you can do and what you can accomplish? Or, like 70% of people, are your thoughts trending towards the negative side of all the things you can't do and why you're not good enough? And it's very easy to slip into that mindset of, "Oh, Johnny can do this. Well, they can do this, but, man, I can't do this." Let me give you some examples here. And as I give you these examples, think about what would happen if all the words that you said and physically uttered out of your mouth became a reality. How careful would you be about your words if everything you said became a reality? Let me give you an example. I know you've heard people say these kind of things, and maybe we've said them ourselves. Have you ever heard someone say, "Oh, I could never do that?" Well, what have they just done with their words? The person has just sealed their own fate in that area. I could never do that. Well, now I never gave a chance for that particular seed to grow. How about this one, I've heard people say this, and this is one that requires self-restraint. I get sick every year this time of year. Well, that almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, because the word becomes a reality. And what I wish we as human beings understood more, and I'm just beginning to understand this, is how powerful our words are. That when you say something, there is a creative force to your words. And oftentimes, those tend to become a reality. In fact, our biochemistry oftentimes will change with our thoughts and words. And that's why it's so important to be careful with your words. I was on my way to a football game last year with my son, he said, "Dad, there's no way we can beat this team." Well, where was he already defeated? Right there in the mind. And so we talked about that, and he shifted his words, and shifted his thinking on that. Because you gotta give a chance for the seed to at least grow, right? Think about this, if your mind was this fertile field, what's gonna happen when you plant the seed? Well, it's gonna take life, it's gonna grow. And there's a great book out, there's actually two that I would recommend. One is called, The Four Agreements, and the other is called, The Tongue, a Creative Force. Both great books, referencing these ideas about your words and your thoughts becoming a reality. So think of your mind like a field. And from that book, The Tongue, a Creative Force and The Four Agreements, what happens is, we tend to make these internal agreements. And I'll even bring Star Wars into the analogy. Who did the force work well on? When someone was trying to use the force on someone else, who did it work well on? It was usually those of a weak mind. Who did the force not work on? It was someone that had a strong mind and wouldn't allow someone else to act upon them. So either we will act or be acted upon. And in the book The Four Agreements, they take this from a different light and so, let's just look at this from this particular light. I like the way they do this as an analogy, as a sample. Treat yourself like a wizard. And I don't care if your net worth is worth $200 million and you're the CEO of a large publicly traded company. I don't care if you stay at home and have a few children, and that is your world. Think of it the same way because it's the same concept. You're a wizard here. When you say something, you're casting a spell on someone else, when you say something to them. And for the fun, we can call this black magic or white magic. Either you're sending poison at them in the form of black magic with your words or you're sending white magic. Words of encouragement, uplifting words, seeds that will help them grow and develop or poison that will destroy the seeds in their fertile soil of their mind. And more importantly then what we say to others is what we say to ourselves. And that's why I come back to this whole concept of watching your words. Sometimes, without even knowing it, we're planting the seeds that are filled with poison in our own minds, and we don't even allow ourselves to be in the first place. Be, do, have. That's why that five-hour rule, 5% of your income to read and attend seminars is so critical. That's what allows us to plant those seeds in our own mind and then have that growth. And I was just sitting around the dinner table earlier in the week talking about this with our children, and I didn't know if they got it or not. And then ironically, this morning we came back to this idea of how important our words are. And so I used an example of what happens if someone calls you stupid. And then my nine-year-old daughter Lana, she goes, she jumps right out and she's like, "Dad, that's someone throwing their black magic at you and you have to wave it off and replace it with happy thoughts." And how powerful of a response is that from a nine-year-old actually. And that's exactly what happens. People are gonna say things to you where they're gonna cast their black magic or their spell at you. Now you have a choice, do you plant that seed that they gave you in your mind or do you wave it off because your self-worth and the way you see yourself is already so solidified that you don't need someone to tell you you're great? You don't need someone to tell you that you're bad. You have your own self-worth regardless of what other people say to you. So number one, what kind of words are you uttering to other people. And even more importantly, for this podcast, what are the words that you say to yourself on a daily basis, and how do you shift those? Here's one last example of this, of black magic, white magic, casting a spell, whatever you want to call it. Programming someone else's mind. There's a story of a mother who came home from work, she'd had a long day and so she has a headache, and, you know, it's just been one of those kind of days. Well, her daughter, and I think, we'll just say around six, seven years old, her daughter was singing. And she was all excited, and she was playing this instrument that she had made, and she was going to town. Well, because of the long day that her mom had, this just amplified her headache. And so in a moment of, we'll just call it weakness, she lashed out at her daughter and told her, "Will you quit singing, you have a terrible voice. You can't sing anyway." Now, in that moment of weakness, she casted a spell, she throughout these words that were poisonous words. And in a young fertile mind, it planted a seed. Now, how did her daughter respond to this, in this hypothetical scenario? Well, now she started to believe her mom. She didn't have a good voice so she quit singing. In school, she used to talk to people, she used to be alive and voracious, but now, because of these self-conscious thoughts of being, you know, a terrible singer, maybe she's bad at performing in front of people, she started to look inward anymore. She didn't talk to her friends anymore, and this just continued through her years of middle school and high school until as an adult, she considered herself a strong introvert, which there's nothing wrong with being an introvert. That she didn't have any musical talents or gifts at all, and so on and so on. Well where did this all start? It was that seed, it was that, we'll just call it "a spell" from her mother, where she cast out those poisonous words, indeed her daughter planted the seed, and it grew to be can become a reality. And so I would just ask you to think about this, what are the words that you say to yourself on a daily basis? Are they uplifting to you or are they filled with poison? And we've got to eliminate the poisonous words from our vocabulary. Second, how do you talk to other people? Are you casting out white magic, words and seeds that would lift people or are they black magic, something that would tear other people down and hurt them in the process? So this is all tied back to the principle of, Live the Golden Rule in Business and in Life, which normally as I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, is outward focused. Well in this podcast, we turned that back on to ourselves and really hopefully had a chance to look in the mirror. What kind of conversations are you having? Are you open to learning and development? Well, if you're on the podcast, my guess is the answer to that is yes. We're more like Jim and not necessarily the hypothetical Jill. And so, when we have that desire, how do we shift that conversation? And you remember number one was, making the shift from having first, do and be, to becoming, be, do, have. And the only way to do that is to develop our own mind, so that there's a strong self-worth in each one of us. And that puts us in a position where we can really lift others, and with our words, make a big difference. Not only in our own growth and development, but in helping others. It's been my experience though that rarely does someone cast out their seeds of white magic, we'll just call it that for today, if they're not in a place to do so, and if they're not in a place where they see themselves in that positive light to be able to do that in the first place. So I hope this podcast has given you some ideas. What I'd hope that you take away from this is that you teach maybe some open coworkers about it, maybe not. If you're not in a work environment like that, then teach your children, bring it up with your spouse, and then really be cognizant of your words as you go throughout today. And if you find yourself uttering a word that you would not want to become a reality, then replace it with something positive, shift that word. And watch what happens to your own self-worth as you start to only use light filled words, rather than these poisonous words that can tear yourself down or tear others down. Well, hey, it's been a pleasure being with you, that's the invitation. Let us know how it goes, email us at support@becomingyourbest.com. We would love to hear your story. And then just something to put on your radar, every April and October is the Breakthrough Leadership Conference, where you have two days of content focused exclusively on you and helping you achieve and accomplish your dreams. So take a look at the website, becomingyourbest.com, and pencil out those dates. Invest in yourself and make that time so that we really can have that fertile soil. We try to walk just as much as we talk the talk because we're all the same. We all need that development so that we can be, do, have. All right, we're wishing you a great day, and remember that one person can make a difference. We'll see you next week, have a wonderful day. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Vicki from LegitChics shares her raw journey from food lover to child protector. Plus one of the most common foods around that can actually help regulate estrogen levels What you will learn about one food lover's journey that led her to protect children and families the most common food around that can actually help regulate estrogen levels, help with migraines and help eliminate PMS At the end of this episode I'll share with you one of the cheapest foods you can buy that can help transform your health if you're a food lover too, and Marilyn Monroe ate this food every day. OK that was a huge hint! Have you got any idea what food it is? You'll find out. On with the story This story comes to us from Vicki Marie, who is an incredible woman. Vicki is the founder of LegitChics.com where she shares other women's stories of their triumphs, survival, struggles, trauma, loss and grief, and what we all can learn from their experiences. In addition to founding LegitChics.com and being what she calls a Bad Ass Solopreneur, Vicki is also a Women's Empowerment & Resiliency Coach, a Family Safety & Family Enrichment Coach, a Crime Victim Advocate, a Social Worker, an Educator and a Survivor. So here's Vicki's story, which I'm going to share with you in her own words. Vicki's story: from food lover to child protector "I love food. I mean really love it. Let me put it this way - when my sister and I were having the team Edward vs. team Jacob debate (like all sisters do right!) - I went team Jacob all the way. I told her I could never give up food - especially Mexican food! To give up chips and salsa, enchiladas, tacos ... no fucking way! She laughed and tried to convince me to be on team Edward by saying, "You could always just eat a Mexican!" Oh, my God we laughed so hard I almost peed myself. But seriously - give up food? Come on." A lifelong struggle "My whole life I have struggled with my extra chub. I think my earliest memories of feeling self-conscious started in junior high - like most of us do at that age. "One time while making a sandwich my step grandmother made a comment about how much Miracle Whip I was putting on my ham and cheese sandwich and how that was going to go straight to my hips. "My dad commented on how wide my butt was getting. "Better yet was the time we got weighed in for PE in front of the whole class and one of the guys (yes, I remember you) held up a sign with my weight for the whole class to see. "In 8th grade I was fully grown and bigger than the awkward scrawny guys, and weighing in at 154 I was mortified. I maintained that weight all through High School and even following the birth of my daughter. But that wasn't good enough "I prayed and prayed God would just help me lose 20 pounds - that's all I asked for. Funny how living with extreme abuse by my mother and I was more worried about that 20 pounds than anything else. "I remember in High School a guy told me I was really pretty and all but that I'd get more boyfriends if I wasn't fat. I was devastated. What I'd give to be back to 154 lbs now. Looking back, I was perfect at that weight and size. I was in size 7 and 9s back then. I haven't seen that weight since my hysterectomy in 2003. "Following the hysterectomy, I gained 100 pounds within the first year and have been a size 22 or 3X consistency. Eating anything and everything "Since then it seems no matter what I do that weight will not budge. If I eat everything in sight or I diet like a crazy person it just stays the same. "I've tried to convince myself that people don't treat me any differently, that my kids (all 5 of them) don't love me any less, and to know me is to love me. But, even with my public confidence and my outwardly "I don't give a shit" attitude - deep down I care. "I eat when I'm happy, I eat when I'm sad, I eat when I'm stressed, I eat when I'm anxious, I eat when I want to set a sex offender on fire. You name the emotion and I'll eat it. "Do I have bad eating habits? Sure. Do I starve myself all day just due to the simple fact I didn't have time to eat then get home after work and eat everything that isn't nailed down because I'm so hungry? Yep. And, do I get fast food or a quick snack of beef jerky and chips at that gas station when I'm out with Law Enforcement investigating child abuse? Hell yes. "I have horrible habits. I know that. But like I said earlier, it doesn't seem to matter what I do - I can eat till I drop or diet and eat healthy and it doesn't matter. The weight stays the same. Never giving up "However, I'm trying again. It's been two weeks of salads, fat-free dressing, chicken breast, cucumbers as chips with my homemade killer salsa. That's actually really good by the way. But, I'm already missing and craving BBQ, tacos, steaks, loaded baked potatoes, cheese! Your killin' me smalls! I'm just keepin' it real. Helping people now "As a mom of 5 children, 28 years and counting parenting experience (you learn as you go believe me), a previous foster parent and Child Protection Social Worker and Investigator for the past 11 years, currently a Crime Victim Advocate and Women's Empowerment, Resiliency & Life Coach and a Family Safety & Family Enrichment Coach, I've worked with and helped hundreds and hundreds of women, children, and families in crisis. "I work with victims of crime, victims of physical and sexual abuse and assault, Domestic Violence, people who are struggling with substance use and abuse, mental health, trauma, families who experience the loss of a child or death of a loved one, as well as victims of child abuse and neglect. "I help families stay safe. "If you need help in any of those areas - I've got you covered. But, if you need help with weight like I do - get help from someone who is an expert in this field. "Barbara, I'm all yours girl! Whatcha got? Vicki Marie" Some ideas for Vicki and other food lovers (and you, if any of this sounds familiar) First of all, Vicki thank you SO much for sharing your story with us. I mean, what an incredible journey. I find it very inspiring - and I'm sure anyone listening does too. You've been able to take your experience of abuse and have the strength and courage to not only contribute to but also to build resources and a coaching practice to help others in similar situations. I just think that's incredible. You're one strong woman. Now you've asked me for a food tip, and yup, I've got a great one for you. You said that weightloss after your hysterectomy is a challenge, and I've definitely got some tips for you. Before I share them though, I just want to say for those of you listening that any advice I give here is based on my own personal experience. Each listener is responsible for his or her own health. I take no responsibility for anything you decide to do or not do as a result of what I say. So if you're in any doubt or you require medical advice in your particular situation, please contact the appropriate health professional. First some non-food tips OK. The first thing I'd say Vicki would be to make sure that you don't have an undiagnosed thyroid problem. I don't know if you've seen a doctor for that, but if you haven't, that might be a good place to start. The second thing I'd say has to do with my own experience in the area of abuse and weight issues. Sometimes extra weight can be our unconscious way of protecting ourselves. It sounds like you deal with really tough situations every day, so I wonder if it's possible that the extra weight helps you protect yourself unconsciously on some level. I say that because I used to have that problem myself, and also not all women gain weight after a hysterectomy. So there could be another reason. I'm not a therapist. I'm not a coach. I'm just a fellow survivor with a long experience of therapy, personal development and spiritual practices. And that's what came to my mind, so I wanted to share it in case it helps someone. The food tips First, what to avoid, especially for estrogen levels Now in terms of the food that can help you, first I want to tell you one food to avoid, OK? And that food is soy. The reason you want to avoid soy is because it has phytoestrogens that mimic estrogen in the body, which play havoc with your hormone balance. This is true not only for women, but for men and children as well. That's why you see men who aren't that overweight with man boobs. I mean, that's an estrogen thing. It's kind of scary, and I could talk for the entire podcast about why estrogen levels are important to control and how you can do that, but I won't. So, if you're drinking soya milk for example, please stop! Better choices for plant-based milks are any nut milk, or hemp, or rice milk, or coconut milk. Anything but soy. What to add into your diet Right, now here's a food for you to add into your diet Vicki. I don't know if you eat it or not, but hopefully you'll start now! It's a super common food that actually helps detox and eliminate excess estrogen. Apparently Marilyn Monroe ate this food every day. She also smoked and drank a lot, but she ate this one superfood every day. The best part is that this food doesn't come in a fancy package as a dried superfood powder that costs the earth. It's actually one of the cheapest foods you can get. You're gonna be surprised. Are you ready? The food is...carrot! Did you guess it? If you did let me know, OK? So why carrots? Raw carrots actually have a particular fiber that absorbs excess estrogen and helps get it out of the body. Isn't that cool? So if you know anyone suffering from PMS, including migraines, ask them to eat one raw carrot each day and see what happens. I'm not making this up. In the shownotes for this episode I'll link to an article by Dr Ray Peat where he explains more about estrogen levels and how he found that his migraines disappeared by eating one raw carrot a day. I'll also link to another article that explains the link between raw carrots and estrogen. Best way to eat your carrots Now how do you eat your one carrot a day? Well, it has to be raw. And for best results, you want to eat it in between meals, so just pick one up and munch on it. The best carrots are large, organic carrots. Just avoid any pre-peeled carrots, because the peel on the carrot helps protect it from picking up bacteria, and if they're organic, you don't have to peel them. You can just wash them to remove any excess dirt. And if you want to up your intake of carrots with your meals as well, try dipping them into my Spinach Dip, or shredding them to add to soups and salads. You'll find the Spinach Dip recipe in my 5-Minute Soups & Sides recipe ebook and I'll link to that in the show notes. To find out more about Vicki and the amazing work that she's doing, head over to legitchics.com Have YOU got a story to share? If you've got an inspiring story to share (and you'd like to know what food could have saved the day in your situation), I'd love to hear from you! Got a question, or a comment? Got a question, or a comment? Pop a note below in the comments, that would be awesome. You can also subscribe to the podcast to listen 'on the go' in iTunes. I hope you have an amazing day. Thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now! RESOURCES Article explaining link between raw carrots and estrogen: http://empoweredsustenance.com/raw-carrot-a-day/ Article by Dr Ray Peat on estrogen: http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/natural-estrogens.shtml Recipe ebooks, including 5-Minute Soups & Sides: https://rockingrawchef.com/5-minute-recipes/     About Vicki MarieLegit Chics Founder & Editor-in-Chief | Bad Ass Solopreneur | Women's Empowerment & Resiliency Coach | Family Safety & Family Enrichment Coach | Crime Victim Advocate | Social Worker | Educator | Survivor Website Facebook Instagram Pinterest

The Israeli-Palestinian debate has been raging for years, and there are a lot of emotions on both sides. Both have made mistakes, and neither side is blameless in its application of violence against the other. With that said there is the TRUTH and there are LIES when it comes to who has the right to control areas of the West Bank and Gaza. Do the Palestinians have a right to the lands in the West Bank? Should there be a two State solution? I'll do my best to give you the facts around this very polarizing debate.***Betsy Devos has cleared yet another hurdle toward her goal of becoming the next education secretary of the United States. To be frank, I don't have any idea if Betsy is qualified for the job or if she'd be any good at it. Since I don't think the government has the constitutional authority to HAVE a DOE, the idea that our education secretary might have ambitions of dismantling or hobbling its ability to harm our education system is refreshing. What I'd like to do is point out the hypocrisy and shameless comments by many of the committee charged with vetting her. I've picked out Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders to illustrate my point. I think you'll get a kick out of it.Support the show.

Tim gives the emotional back story of Gardy, the currently missing son of a friend, in Haiti. He talks about recent efforts to rescue him and a little about how Gardy helped start Operation Underground Railroad.   Interview w/ Tim Ballard Mark Mabry January 20, 2015   Tim:          Welcome to Slave Stealer Podcast. Tim Ballard here with Mark Mabry, and we're going to talk today about the story that really started Operation Underground Railroad. It's the story of a man named Guesno Mardy who is a Haitian man whose son was kidnapped, trafficked, from Port-au-Prince. He was the pastor of his congregation, and this boy was taken from church, passed on to traffickers, and vanished. What's horrible about this story is that while he's looking for his boy - he's only two or three weeks into the search - and that's when Haiti has that earthquake that kills 300 and some thousand people. Included amongst those people were Guesno's mother, Guesno's sister, and almost his wife. She was the only person who survived in this building that collapsed and only because her body fell into, like, a crevasse of cement jungle and somehow walked out without a scratch. And that's when she said...she basically cursed the land and said, "I'm leaving. My son's been kidnapped." She had four other children at the time and she says, "I'm outta here. I'm going to Florida. I cannot live in this cursed land." And Guesno says, "I can't leave without Gardy." So they're still married and everything, but he lives in Haiti because he will not leave until he finds his son. Mark:      And she lives in Florida. Tim:           She lives in Florida. Mark:       That was a lot to take in for an opening paragraph. Tim:          Yeah. How'd you like that one? Mark:       That was big. Tim:           Yeah. Mark:       Let's just start here, then. Let's start into the narrative, because you gave us a good context. Take me to the first time you ever spoke to Guesno. What was your situation at the time? And what was his response? Tim:        I was a government agent when I heard about the case - and the reason I heard about the case was because this little boy Gardy actually was born in the United States. His parents were on a fundraising mission. They have an orphanage, beautiful orphanage, that we visit often, and it has 150 kids in it. They're on a fundraising mission, and that's when Guesno's wife, Marjorie, was pregnant with Gardy, had Gardy - he's a U.S. citizen. He's the only of the of the five kids, the (now) five kids, that's a citizen, so I...naturally, I heard about the case. There was some press on it, and I was reading about it - not very much press, but a little bit. And I thought, "I wonder what's happening with this little U.S. citizen who's been taken?" So I started digging into it, found out that the case had been given over to the Haitian national police. There were some federal agents who went down in the wake of the kidnapping and then the earthquake happened and all hell broke loose and they just had no leads. At that point, though, very few were looking for Gardy, relatively speaking, at the time, and then when the earthquake hits, there's no infrastructure. Prisons broke, people were running out of jail... I mean, there was no resources to do anything like a proactive investigation for a missing person. Mark:       How many displaced children were there in the wake of the earthquake? Do you know? Tim:           Oh, it's hundreds of thousands. Hundreds of thousands. Mark:       So one missing already, it's a... Nobody cares. Tim:          Oh...later on, we went and talked to the Haitian police about the Gardy case, and they said, "Look, we care about this case, but the problem is, we get a missing person or missing kid report every week, several a week. Dozens." Mark:       I want to know about the first phone call. Tell me about the first time you connected with Guesno. Tim:           I was trying to work this case from the government. I actually opened a case on it, but because there were no leads and it would have required a trip down there to even find leads, that's not enough to get anyone to sign off on a plane ticket. So what I decided to do was reach out to him. I found a connection between him and me, someone who knew both of us, and they reached out to him and we got him up here with private funding. We got him up... We flew him from Haiti to up into Salt Lake City. Mark:       Him alone, or him and his wife? Tim:           Just him. Mark:       Ok. Tim:           And we met at Thanksgiving Point, which is an area that has restaurants and dining. And I foolishly invited him to the nicest restaurant at Thanksgiving Point. I thought I was doing something kind, and he walks in... He totally feels out of place, he sits down. We order this food, and he's looking at it - this is my first impressions of him. He comes in, we're just kind of talking, small talk. And we order this food, and they bring it out, and then he's just like, "This could feed ten of my kids for a week..." Mark:       I hate people like that. Debbie Downer. Here you are at this... Tim:           Oh, yeah. Mark:       I'm just kidding, I don't hate Guesno. Tim:           No, but he was completely just honest and genuine. He just took, like, a little bit of the food for himself - like, a tiny bit - and then asked for it... He was leaving the next morning, so he's like, "This food won't perish. I'll be able to take it back to my kids." Mark:       His kids meaning...the kids at the orphanage... Tim:           The kids at the orphanage. Mark: Wow. Tim: So that made me feel like, oh. Well, I mean, I was grateful that, I guess, some of the food got to go back.. I think he had to smuggle it through customs, to be honest with you; I don't think you are supposed to take food, but he probably figured out a way.         So we sat there, and we started talking about it. And it was a punch to the stomach when he said to me... It was one of the first... He kind of led out with this. I said, "What are you doing right now to find your son? Like, what's the plan?" And he said, "The plan is... All I have right now is zero leads..." Except, he did have a target location. He knew of a place that he believed Gardy had gone through this illicit orphanage. He had tried to get in, he couldn't get in... He said, "You're not going to be able to get in. No one can get in there." He rented... he used to rent, like, a motel or a room in a building across the street. He'd get up on the roof with binoculars and tried to look into this place. It's like a fortress kind of thing. And these kids... It's just on the outskirts of Port-au-Prince. He says he's tried to get in several times and no one will let him in. It's all walled off, gated off, because you can't get in. Mark:       Pause button. This may be a cultural thing or personality thing: if you thought your son was behind those walls, what would you do? Would you not, guns blazing, go in.? Tim:           The police told him, "If you can find a kid in there that you can tell us you've seen your son - you can show us some pictures of it - we will raid the place." Short of that he... You know, I think part may be a cultural thing, partly he doesn't understand, like... I don't know. I mean, I would have been more aggressive, sure. I would've just gone in... Mark:       Yeah. Tim:           ...and made a ruse or excuse for going in or whatever. But, in fact, that's what we end up doing. Mark:       But, but they knew him, as Will disclosed. so there was no ruse. Tim:           They knew him. Yeah, they knew him, they knew him and so it was even more difficult for him to get in. And Haiti's also a culture of, you know, people don't want to... It's a very violent culture, right? I mean, everyone's seen someone murdered. And so people are very careful about stepping out into anything. They don't want to get involved. They don't want to get wrapped into it. There's traffickers and thugs involved with kidnapping this boy, and so no one wants to step in, so Guesno was just alone. Even he has to be careful how far he goes; he might create a situation where he's off'd. Mark:       If someone will kidnap, they will murder. Tim:           Absolutely. Mark:       I think, in general. It's a blatant disregard for life. Tim:           Especially in Haiti. Mark:        Yeah. Tim:           Yeah. So he's just... He told me that's what he does. Aside from that piece of intelligence... And he says there's no way of getting in there and he wasn't even 100% that he was still there - he was certain that Gardy, at least at one point, had been trafficked through this place. But he still held out for the possibility that he could be anywhere in Port-au-Prince or anywhere in Haiti or anywhere in the world, for that matter. But he told me that he arbitrarily picked a neighborhood in the city, in Port-au-Prince, and he would just walk. He would just walk with a flashlight, hoping. And I remember, we were sitting there having this dinner, and he says...and this is what really, really hit me. He said, "I just walk the streets hoping to hear Gardy's cry." And I said, "How do you pick the area?" He said, "I just pray and I just pick an area." The scarier the area, the better. Mark:      Wow. Tim:          ...he said. And he just walks and hopes to hear Gardy's cry. I said, "Guesno, that's not a good enough plan. You gotta come up with a better plan." And he says, "I know, you need to help me." And then he starts telling me...he starts tearing up, and he says, "Do you have kids?" And I said, "Yeah, I have kids." He said, "Can you imagine laying down and falling asleep in your home, on any given night, knowing that you have a small child whose bed is empty? And he's somewhere outside, you have no idea where. Could you just lay down, knowing that the bed is empty?" I said, "No. There's no way." " Well, I haven't slept for years." Mark:       Asking you, as a man of faith: knowing Guesno's faith - and that'll show up further on down the story - how do you reconcile that much prayer? And that much... I'm talking thousands of prayers - not only his, but those of his wife and kids, those of now tens of thousands of people that have heard...millions of people that have heard of Guesno and prayed... For Gardy not to be found yet, it hurts. Like, it doesn't destroy my faith, but it certainly goes, "Oh, come on. This one's worthy." How do we reconcile that gap? Tim:           Well, I've had these talks with Guesno, and he says...he believes there is a higher purpose for this. He believes that Gardy's alive. He believes that Gardy will be rescued, but there's a reason why he hasn't been rescued yet. As I continue to tell you the story about how Operation Underground Railroad got involved with the search for Gardy, it's almost a prophecy fulfilled, what happens. Mark:       Real quick, to be clear, first Tim Ballard got involved in searching for Gardy. And during that search, Operation Underground Railroad was born. Tim:           Yes. Because of that search, it was born. I tried to, first, investigate this case as a government agent, but like I said, there just wasn't any leads. I mean... There really wasn't any leads except for this one orphanage that I couldn't get a hold of the case file. You don't just call Haiti and say, "Hey, can you send the case file?" There is no federal agencies, law enforcement agencies, like Homeland Security or FBI; they didn't exist in Haiti. Trying to get the case file would have been... I tried to, but no one could get it for me. The way Haiti works is you gotta just show up at places and be persistent until you get to the boss, and then you ask the boss, and then he can make a decision. So, I needed to get boots on the ground to even verify the validity of whatever lead we had, particularly this illegal place, that according to Guesno, held children, and that Gardy had been trafficked through that place. So, I tried to get down there and I just couldn't. I knew I wasn't going to be able to, there just wasn't enough information...the crime, even though it was a U.S. Citizen, had occurred in Haiti under Haiti jurisdiction... The-the-the-the-um Federal agents had gone down in the wake of that, like I said, but they found nothing and came home, and they just turned the case over to the Haitian police. And that was it. That was it. So, because I'd made the promise to Guesno that night, I told him, "I will do everything I can do to... and I will never stop looking, until we find your son". And I had made that promise, and then here I am completely unable to fulfill that promise. Because I opened the case on it, I couldn't go down on my own dime and my own time... It would've been a major conflict, and against policies, and... I wouldn't have been able to use any government contacts I had...and so, because it wasn't an authorized investigation, an authorized trip, to go down there. So I knew the only way that I was going to be able to fulfill the promise to Guesno was to leave the government altogether and go down as private organization, as a private investigator. Mark:     And so, I'm assuming you tapped big reserves of cash and that you had sitting there. Tim:        Oh yeah, I had a... The government pays me quite a bit with my bonuses, and...no. [scoffs] Mark:     And your stock options... Tim:        And stock options and, you know, Uncle Sam provides. So...so yeah, we had no money. Mark:     What I'd like to do here... And I love this, how it's building... You make a promise, and in order to fulfill his promise, you've got to give up everything. In searching for this little boy, everything comes back in droves, and you're still searching. It's a...yeah. Talk about the birth, a little bit, of Operation Underground Railroad, because it fits. Those that watch The Abolitionists, the movie that's coming out May 16th, you've got to understand that there's more to the Gardy story, like the birth of Operation Underground Railroad. Tim:        Right. That's right. Mark:     So, go with, kind of the... Let's go long-form here. Just give me how it was born, in context of Gardy. Tim:        Well, I'll say this... We've talked a little bit up about Colombia, there were... It really was two cases that birthed the Underground Railroad. It was Gardy, and then also a promise I had made to Colombia, to the Colombian authorities, as a government agent that we would come and execute this plan that we had designed to rescue kids in Cartagena. So, both of those were weighing on me. Mark:     So, personally, your personal integrity was being compromised by constraints in your current position. Tim:        Yeah, and it was naïve and foolish of me to make the promises, frankly. Mark:   Or inspired. Tim:        Or inspired. One or the other. Often, those are one in the same, right? So, um...uh... Yeah, we've talked about Colombia, but this... Both of those together birthed Operation Underground Railroad. Mark:     Colombia fail op, actually, right? That was your first op, we talked about before? Tim:        Yeah, that was the very first operation in Colombia... That was a plan that had actually been planned a year earlier, or maybe more than a year earlier, when I was as a government agent in Colombia, training federal police down there on how to do trafficking cases, and we have decided that we would, instead of just doing the training, that we would actually do a case. And I promised we'd be back to execute, and then I couldn't get back. So, it was it was a similar situation in both these cases, and are happening at about the same time. I can't go to Haiti and help Guesno, and I can't go to Colombia to help the Colombian federal agents. Mark:     And when you got to Colombia, you weren't allowed to... The case got stymied, right? It got shut off? It was a technical failure? Tim:        Yeah... Mark:     And you're taking us to Haiti, here in the second, where, in terms of objectives... We didn't come home with Gardy, and it's interesting... Two kicks in the teeth, right off the bat... Tim:        Yeah. Mark:     Yet, you plow through. Tim:        Yeah. Mark:     It's cool. So keep going with Gardy. Tim:        So, we go to Port-au-Prince, because of the police station, we open the case file. Sure enough, there's plenty of leads. Guesno's right. This orphanage is illicit, if you can call it an orphanage... This place where children are being kept is most certainly a [pause, stutters] prime suspect. Mark:     Why? Tim:        Several reasons. One had to do with the fact that when Gardy went missing, the-the-the-the, um leader of the organization, this orphanage started showing up, and they knew each other. There was an acquaintance there, which is usually how kidnappings happen. Mark:     She went to Guesno's church. Tim:        Yes. She went to Guesno's church. Mark:     She was one of the members of his flock. Tim:        That's right. And that's usually how these things happen, unfortunately. It's usually someone who knows... They know, they have an inside angle. So she starts showing up randomly, like, after, like, snooping around, like, showing up with the family when they're meeting with the police, and they're just like, "Why are you here? We don't know you that well..." Like, why? And then the police turned on, started investigating her, and she just disappeared... Stopped coming to church. At the same time, they made an arrest in the case of another flock member, who actually worked for Guesno at the orphanage, and was fired for embezzling money. Interestingly enough, he ends up being the one who, dead to rights, was the one who actually did the physical kidnapping of Gardy, and then gave him to a bunch of thugs. His thought was that they were just going to ransom the kid off, and they knew from phone records that it was clearly him who was making the calls back to Guesno for ransom. He thought they're going to ransom the kid off, get him back, and he would have got his revenge on Guesno. But what happened was the thugs did ransom him off, took the money, and then kept the kid to sell him to make more money, and then threw this flock member, Carlos, to Guesno... Oh, I'm sorry, to the police, and they ended up arresting him. He still in jail. And while he's going to jail, he's... From jail, he's calling who? He's calling Yvrose, who is the director of this illegal orphanage. Mark:     The woman that is snooping around... Tim:        Yeah, the woman that's snooping around, and then disappears, and is acting all weird... He starts calling her. She's the point of contact. We don't know what those phone conversations were, but those phone conversations were very active in the wake of the kidnapping. All roads lead to this woman, and she's up to no good. Carlos is in jail. The thugs, you don't know who they are exactly, but they have Gardy eventually, but... We have to find out, does this woman... If she and the business of taking kids and selling them in the black market? Because that would make sense, if that's what she's doing. Her orphanage was illicit, she couldn't adopt kids... She didn't have a license to adopt kids. Mark:     And it's not like she was just getting them to take care of them Mother Teresa style. Tim:        Oh, no. Mark:     As we'll get to, that was no sanctuary. Tim:        Oh, no. That was a doghouse. That was a doghouse. So, she lived OK. She had her own little apartment on the premises, and she had another house outside of the orphanage, too, and she was doing just fine. It's the kids who were living in the doghouse. So, so, we goes down, we end up with the blessing and authorization of the Haitian national police... They signed up to work under them... And they send us into the orphanage with hidden cameras to just see what's going on here. We kind of just show up, she's very suspicious at first, but we said, "Look, word on the street is that this is where you can get kids". Mark:     And this is just...this is you and an interpreter, right? Tim:        Yeah. Mark:     Ok. Tim:        And you. You were there. Mark:     I went... You had been there before by now. Tim:        Yeah, that's right. We have been there before. Mark:     So, you went and scouted about... Tim:        Yeah, we went up and just said, "How do you... Word on the street is that you've got kids." So we came in exactly like a trafficker would come in. We didn't come in and say we're going to take these kids and sell them into sex slavery or slave labor, but a trafficker wouldn't do that. He'd just come in and say, "I hear this is... If you want kids, this is where you come get them." And she said, "Yes, that's exactly right."  And then we let her tell us, "Well how does this work?" And she was not shy about it. Adoption wasn't an option. She didn't even lay it out there. In fact, we forced the issue and said, "Well, why don't you do it legally?" She's like, "Aw, you don't want to do that. That's not... It's just real easy, just give me $10,000." And she ended up raising the price the next day to $15,000 dollars. "Just give me cash and pick your kid." These kids weren't documented. There is no evidence that they even existed, because that's how she would get them. There was no legal process by which she got them, she just gathered them. So, we went back to the police and said you won't believe this...she, she... You're right! She is suspect number one, because she is selling kids. The fact that you believe she had Gardy is very credible. This is her M.O. They sent us back in to do the deal, and we went in and picked these... They said, "Pick a kid. Buy him. Look at the evidence, and we'll shut them down and get the kids out there." Mark:     K, so, let's narratively go into this joint... You've got a couple of undercover Haitian police specialist detectives, one woman, and another man that was posing as our tour guide, and another guy that was posing as the van driver. These guys, you know, we talk about government corruption, and it's probably a little more rampant in Haiti, and business is good for traffickers in Haiti. For these guys to stand up and take on trafficking is really bold. Tim:        Yeah, absolutely. Mark:     So, they were there, there are a couple of abolitionists there, there was a former marine there, who was a girl, and this is when I met Tim. I was working at The Blaze as a journalist, and he invited me to come down to verify, say "Hey, I want to show your organization that we're legit. And I was working for The Blaze for Glenn Beck at the time, and he said, "Ok, we're going to send Mark". Boom. I get sent. I'm with Tim, and that's really how we... we'd met before that, but... Tim:        Yeah. Mark:     Our first... Tim:        So, that's... Mark:     That's why we're here. Tim:        So, we-we-we... Mark:     We all walk in. Tim:        We all walk in. Not all those people you named, some of them were just outside security, and, but... Mark:     Yeah. Tim:        So we go in and we make the deal, and we buy these kids. While we're going in, this time, unlike the first time, I picked up one of the kids and I was holding him and I'm walking around, and I'm looking for Gardy. Is Gardy in here? Is there a possibility? So I walked through every nook and cranny of this place, but, the best I can, they were walling me off to see everything... Mark:     We're taking pictures of every child's face. Tim:       Yeah, every child's face. Maybe one of them is Gardy. But, ultimately, we came back, and, and, um, it was a really... This movie is captured in the movie. Or, this scene is captured in the movie, where I go back and tell Guesno, and I'm like... Mark:     Wait, you skipped... Filled in a little bit, first. Tim:        No, I didn't skip. Mark:     You didn't skip? Tim:        No. Mark:     What did you tell... Tim:        I go back, this is before... This is before there's a rescue. Mark:     Oh, before we did anything. Tim:        Yeah. Mark:     Ok. Tim:        I go back to Guesno and I tell him, "We went there... Gardy was not there that we could see, but she sells kids." And Guesno instantly just, falls apart. He just starts crying. And he says, "She sold... She sold my son. She probably sold my son." And I said - again, this is in the movie - I tell him, "Yeah, but, but we can... This is how... This is our lead. We get her in the hot seat, we interrogate her, and make her tell us, 'What did you do with Gardy? Did you traffic Gardy, too?'" And you know, the key is getting her in the hot seat, because she's about to sell kids to us. So, Guesno's very encouraged, he's excited about this, and then he... And this tells you about Guesno, and he instantly turns and he says, "And you've gotta get those kids out. They're suffering. I know they're suffering," he said. Later on, he would tell me, he would say, you know, "If I never find Gardy, but Gardy's kidnapping is what brought you here and rescued these 28 kids who are for sale... That's a burden I'm willing to bear for the rest of my life." And, that tells you a lot about who this... Who this guy is, and like I said, he sees a bigger plan. He still believes we'll find Gardy, and we believe that. We're operating under the belief that we will find him. But in the meantime, all the good that comes from this... And so much good has come from that looking for this little boy, not the least of which is the 28 kids that we were able to pull out of a trafficking situation. Mark:     So, we go in, do the deal, pull the kids out. You can see the whole thing in The Abolitionists, so we'll skip those parts and really go for the parts that aren't there that much. You get Yvrose in the hot seat, which is represented, finally. The Haitian authorities get her in the hot seat, and we're sitting in one room, she's in the next room over... She thinks that we're all arrested, at this point, because we all went down. Yvrose is sitting there getting interrogated... an interesting twist is that her daughter was visiting, who had lived in Brooklyn, correct? Tim:        She lived in, yeah, the United States. Mark:     She lived in the U.S., she was visiting, and when we went in to buy the children, we said, "Hey, you've got to come back to our hotel to do the deal." She goes, "Ok." She tells her daughter what's going on, daughter fully knows mom's selling kids and these Americans have a ton of cash... Tim:        And we approached the daughter, too, to make sure, because, we were kind of like, "Hey, don't come, don't come. Do you know what's going on?" And then she says, "I know exactly what's going on." Mark:     Yeah. Tim:        She's like, and I said to her, "Is this dangerous?" She's like, "Are you kidding me? This is totally illegal. We could go to jail for this." Mark:     Yeah. Tim:       I was like, "Alright, well, you're helping... You want to come, if you want to come on, and you know this... I'm trying to help you, sister, but you're in, so..." Mark:     And we're in the hotel room, this is the crazy thing, right? We're talking to Yvrose, and you ask, "Have you done this before? How... How would we get these kids out of the country?" She goes, "Oh, I did this before, not long ago... About five years ago," which is when... Tim:        Which is when Gardy was taken. Mark:     ...when Gardy was taken. She said, "You're going to get on the boat... Who is this woman? Do you trust her?" She points at the woman who was kind of there as our... Tim:        She was an undercover police officer for Haiti, yeah. Mark:     She was undercover, that she was kind of, just, our helper. Our Haitian friend. Tim:        Yeah, we told Yvrose that this woman was the nanny that we hired to take care of the kids while we smuggle them out of the country. Mark:     And so, she goes, "Ok. Those kids are going to call her Mama." And she's try- Tim:        She knew exactly what she... She had done this before. Mark:     Yeah. So, and the sad thing is, so everyone hops into the van, we drive clear back to Port-au-Prince, up into this big, opulent hotel suite that we got for the occasion, to pull off the ruse, wired with cameras all over the place, and she calls the little kids in and goes, "Hey," um, she calls the kids and goes, "This is Mama.". Tim:        That's her name. Mark:     That's her name. Call her Mama...kids are like, "Mama, Mama..." Tim:        Good, good, good job! Yeah... Mark:     Yeah. And, um, that's how we were going to get them out of the country. She was orchestrating this whole deal soup to nuts... Full service. Tim:        Yeah, and she gave us several other tips and smuggling routes: how to get out, what to say, what to do. And she kept telling us, "Don't worry, I've done this before. But you can't get caught - we'll all go to jail - but here's what you gotta do." Mark:     And she's... So, you're slapping down. And this is something indelible in my head. I'm watching Tim slap down $20,000...thump, thump, thump... $100 at a time. As her eyes are getting bigger and bigger... Tim:        And she has no idea who we are. Mark:     No idea. Tim:        And she knows better. And I actually had a very...very educated person who came to me after seeing an early clip of this operation, and made this comment that just, like, blew my mind. This person said you know, um, "I don't see what the big... I don't really see a big deal. I mean, if I was down there, I might buy a kid just to get him out of hell too..." And I thought, "WHAT?! Are you... What are you talking about?! No, you wouldn't! Because then what are you going to do next? You're going to smuggle this kid into your country? You're going to have an illegal person... child... in your house? You're going to have to hide them their whole lives? They're totally illegal... Are you kidding me?" And, um, and...and, because he was almost trying to defend Yvrose. Like, "She's just trying to get them a better life!" BULLCRAP! She knows exactly... She knows that decent people do not buy children. Mark:     And getting them a better life... Take us, real quick, what happened the next day, when we saw footage from the inside of the orphanage. The stuff that we didn't see before, on the bust. Talk about their quality of life. Tim:        Oh wait, I want to finish what I was saying before you rudely cut me off, though. Mark:     Come on... I always do that. Arg! Tim:        You do that often. Um, [pause] this woman knew that the only people that would come to buy children... There's two million children in the sex... Forced into sex slavery. There is... That number is double or triple, over five million, close to six million or more, who, if you include the slave labor. This is a huge business. She knows what she's doing. People come to buy kids to put them into slavery. Sex slavery or slave labor, and they do not come to buy a kid so they can raise a kid and bring that kid into their family. That's not how it works. Decent people do it the right way, because they actually want to have a family that's legal and lawful and they raise this child in a good place, with laws and with order. The fact that she doesn't ask one question, only encourages us to buy, buy, buy, don't even think about adoption, buy, buy, buy... We could have been anybody. And she knew that. We could've been pedophiles, in the child pornography industry. We could have been owners of a plantation somewhere that needed kids to work. Usually it's a combination of both, frankly, if you buy someone you're going to use them for sexual exploitation and labor, and that's the bottom line. The evil runs deep here. And she knew it. There's no way that she didn't know it. Mark:     And... Where do you want to go? Tim:        So, so we end up, we end up busting them, thank goodness. They go to jail and the kids get liberated. The next day after the operation, we go back into the orphanage with the police and now we can really see everything, and this is what you see, is the kids had a steady diet of flour and water. That's all there was in the place. Mark:     With maggots. Tim:        With maggots... It was the most disgusting thing... The little children that we bought in the operation, the little siblings, the boy in the girl, Colé and Coline, they thought they were two and three years old. Turns out they were more like five and six years old, but they didn't know that until they got 'em into a place where they actually fed them food. It's amazing what food does. You know. It makes a big difference, in, in, in your...in your growth. In your general health. I mean, to think that kids could be identified as two years younger than they are simply because they don't eat...so, uh, so we were able to, uh, to get them out, and then during that operation, as you see in the movie, we go back, we get her in the hot seat and she's admitted that she stole the kids finally, to the police. Mark:     After like, two hours...she breaks down. Tim:        Yeah, after, after...she finally breaks and says yes. And again, we didn't need her confession... It helps the case, but we didn't need it, because it was all on video. It was very clear that she was selling the kids. She's lying, lying, lying for an hour or two, and then she finally admits it. And now, she's in such trouble, and that's when we come in with, "Ok, now where's Gardy?" And we know she knew who Gardy was, but she acted like she didn't know him. She was like, "I don't even know what you're talking about... I don't know that boy". And again, we know she's lying, because we know she knows that boy. Mark:     She went to church with that boy. Tim:        She went to church with him. She knew that boy. It was a big deal, she was snooping around during the investigation, but she's like, "I don't even know what you're talking about... I don't know that boy." At that point, she... We tried and tried and tried and tried, and she was done. She was already in such big trouble that she was not about to confess to one more crime. But we were trying to... The police were trying to leverage the daughter, saying, "We can make a deal with you... You want your daughter to get a light sentence, here? Do you want us to go easy on your daughter? Or do you wanna tell us where Gardy is?" And she just went cold. Just, wasn't about to do anything to harm herself any further, and so she shut her mouth and said "I'm done talking." Mark:     She sold her daughter down the river. Tim:        That's right. That's right. Mark:     Man... In... To... What's going on in the other side of this is you've got Guesno not knowing exactly what happened, except for... What's happening on the other side is Guesno is at home waiting and praying that [edit out background noise from Tim's mic here?]...[Tim clears throat] that Tim's going to come back with a confession about what happened to Gardy, and Yvros goes icy cold. It was one of the emotional lows of this story, is we go back to the hotel, Guesno comes to meet us, and Tim has to tell him... has to tell Guesno that we have nothing. We go back to the restaurant, Guesno's on his way, you get to break to him the news that she gave us nothing. Tim:        Um-hmm. Mark:     So, we're sitting at this dinner table, everybody's dejected. Tim:        I wouldn't say we're dejected, we just rescued 28 kids. Mark:     We did, but there was... Tim:        It's bittersweet. Mark:     It's bittersweet. Thank you. That's a better word. Now take us to the conversation. Tim:        So Guesno comes in and he's hopeful that we're going to say, "We have a lead, we know where he is." And he's sitting there... But, again, back to Guesno, first and foremost, he was concerned about those kids. "Are they safe? Are they... What's going on? Is she selling them?" "Yes, yes, yes." He can't believe it. Even then, he can't believe it, even though he's the one who led us to that place. He's like, "Really? She actually... she actually admitted that she was selling kids?" It's like, "Yes, she did." And then I had to tell him, when we got to Gardy, she denied knowledge that he even existed. And instantly, and you see this in the movie, instantly, he just... His complete person just shuts down. Just, you just see a little... One more piece of his soul dies, yet again. And he just sinks. I just try to speak words of encouragement to him, you know, I'm like "We're still closer, we're still going to go back to the orphanage, we're going to look around, maybe some of the older kids recognize him... We'll show pictures of him..." And he's just...he is dejected at that point. Mark:     And, um, Guesno leaves. And this is a behind-the-scenes memory that I've got on one of my little cameras. For those that listened to the podcast, there are people, by now, by episode wherever-this-is, you understand that it's a God-fearing organization with faith. Not necessarily a religious organization, but one where faith plays a role. I remember, probably a 75-second speech that you gave that night, because it was bittersweet, and we were all sitting around the table and it's... The operators... Man, we've got Navy Seals we've got former CIA guys, we've got filmmakers, and you say... You say at that point, the gist of your speech was "If you have an impure soul, I don't want you here." Tim:        Ha! That's right. Mark:     Do you remember that? Tim:        I do remember that. Mark:     You said, "We've got to be pure, and stand with some confidence before God if we're ever going to bring this child home." Do you remember that speech? Tim:        I do. Mark:     It was incredibly telling about your approach to abolition of this great evil and probably reinforcement of the mission of this...what was now Operation Underground Railroad, at that point. Tim:        Yeah. Mark:     Um, and just kind of a cool sidelight that happened on that trip. So, take us from there. Continue on the Gardy-finding journey. Tim:        So, things kind of... We find no leads. No one's talking, no one claims to recognize Gardy, but no one talks. That's what I've learned about this. No one in Haiti talks. We went back to the church and interviewed every single person that was there that Sunday that Gardy was taken, and no one would talk. Guesno said that, like, a year later, even his closest congregation members finally came to him and said, "We did see Gardy taken by a motorcycle driver." Mark:     And that would be Carlos, possibly. Tim:        Yeah, Carlos was part of that. He-he- brought... He led Gardy over to the motorcycle. Gardy knew Carlos, and so he trusted him, and then handed him to the trafficker. A woman saw it happen... It took a year for her to admit, because they don't talk. They're scared of getting involved, because when you get involved in things like this, you get killed. So no one talks. Mark: And leads is shut down, completely shut down. The irony is, like, so bright... The sad irony. Here's Guesno saying, "If I lose my child to save these children, it's worth it." Which, for me as a dad, probably for you as a dad, I would give my life before I'd give my child's life. And I'm sure Guesno's even the same way. So for somebody, out of fear, to not report...to not risk their life to report this little boy getting stolen... Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And it's a super sad... Tim:        It's sad, because Guesno's willing to risk his life, not just for Gardy, but for those 28 kids, and all kids. Mark:     And risk his son's life. Tim:        Yes. Mark:     It's incredible. Tim:        There's actually some analogy here to New Testament doctrine. Mark:     Yeah, I think we're writing... I think this is like C.S. Lewis stuff, at this point... Tim:        Yeah, this is like Abraham, Isaac... Kind of... Mark:     Yeah. Tim:        Atonement of Christ, kind of... Mark:     It's amazing. What a test for this man. So, let's go on to the narrative, onto finding Gardy. Tim:        So, we get, we actually, through prayer and just seeking a miracle, we get one. Someone finally comes forward. More than one person, frankly, comes forward, and says we've seen Gardy. We've seen Gardy, he's in a slave labor camp, or slave labor area, and this is where we've seen him. We were able... There's a lot of things we can do, and we're trained operators, we know how to corroborate intel, even without finding Gardy in this area, if they told us enough things about the area, we can prove if they were there. We can prove that they saw something. They saw enough that we corroborated to know that this is a very trustworthy source of information. That's where we're at now. Mark:     And this is about six months later. That's the time that has passed. In the meantime, with the steam you built finding Gardy, because the 28 kids actually got some press. And with that press, came funding of more operations, and in that six month period, Operation Underground Railroad grows. You've busted dozens of more traffickers, saved dozens of more children in different countries, and increased awareness of the cause, just because you're looking for Gardy. Tim:        That's right. And...and-and this is ...back to Guesno. I'm willing to... "I'm willing to give up my son to rescue children." And he has rescued children, by doing what he did, by losing his son, and by encouraging the growth of Operation Underground Railroad. He has rescued many others. He is part of that. Mark:     Absolutely. So, intel... We head back to Haiti. Tim:        We go back to Haiti, and what happens is... we're in the middle of this right now, so it's all about infiltrating this certain region where... And what are we finding? More than 28 kids who are slave labor, and we're able to document them, where they are, what they're doing, how they're being treated. We're sending intel reports to our embassies on both sides of the border of Dominican Republic, which shares the island with Haiti. We're in the process of gathering a whole bunch of intelligence, and we're doing anything we need to do to legally infiltrate working with the Haitian national police. Mark:     And, a while back, we reported on a story, Operation Underground Railroad reported on a story about a mission to a small village in Haiti that for me was pretty freaky, I don't know about for you... Tell us... And this is when we went down, identified this place, you corroborated the information, we came up with a plan, we were going to go to this village that was seriously so remote that you could disappear and nobody would find us. Tim:        Absolutely. Mark:     Um. Tell us... Just give us a... Take us into some of that mission. Tim:        So, what we did was, we needed to find a reason to be there, legitimately, so we got some doctors, we actually partnered with a legitimate non-profit organization in Haiti that does medical clinics... They knew what we were doing, the Haitian police knew what we were doing... And we brought a clinic into this village. I don't believe Gardy is actually in this village, but this was a village that we could gather intel, because at this point, we're not just looking for Gardy. At this point, because of the intel we got, we're looking for kids who are being trafficked, because they're being trafficked all over the place, for sex, for labor, so we're just gathering intel. So what we did was set up a medical lab, real doctors, over 500 people show up and get treated. The doctors told us that they actually saved lives. These people... And some of them, they're not all bad, I mean, most of them are good family people, and families who have never seen a doctor, and so we're treating them, which in and of itself made the whole mission worth it, just to help these people out, medically, but the real reason for going was to get intel. Again, not just about Gardy, but all the kids, so we have all these kids start showing up and we start talking to them afterwards, as kind of their post-checkup interview, and we actually brought Guesno out... He didn't know that we had the intel, because I'm so tired of hurting this man, putting him on this roller-coaster, so we don't even want to tell him that we're looking for Gardy, that we have intel on Gardy unless we have to tell him. So his job is to do the post-interview stuff, because we're thinking, man, there's hundreds of kids coming through this clinic, if one of them is Gardy, he'll recognize him and we won't... In the meantime, we're talking to these kids and, "Who are your parents?" Like, "I don't have parents." "How were you brought here?" "I dunno, I was just always here." Well, yeah, because they were kidnapped just like Gardy was. "What do you do?" "Well, a truck picks us up, takes us over to the Dominican, and we cut sugar, or we pick avocados, and they bring us back." "Well, do they pay you?" I mean, these kids are 10 years old. Mark:    Yeah. Tim:        "Nope." "Uhhh... How do you eat?" "Well, we just get passed around from village to village, or from house to house, hut to hut, and hopefully they give us some food." Well, because the adults are on the take. They're the ones making the money, so they just round up ten kids, and they get paid whatever they get paid, whether it's in product or some kind of fee per head, and that's called slavery. Mark:     And, if I can paint a picture for just a sec, because I was there to photograph... We drove into the village at the crack of dawn. The sun was rising as we were getting to the overlook of this village, and when it finally rose, what we saw was South Carolina circa 1840. I mean, little shacks with naked children bathing in steel tubs outside, people hoeing in tiered gardens, digging up carrots and whatever... The occasional stray mule. But it was plantation-style. Tim:        Yeah, and the reason, even more to your point to this analogy of sl-... It's culturally accepted. These kids are called restaveks, and it's the same justifications that were used in the 19th century to tolerate slavery, are being used here. Oh, it's a better life for them. Yeah, we own 'em, yeah, but at least we're feeding 'em...you know, it's better than they could expect anywhere else... Mark:     And it's a class, right? Tim:        What do you mean? Mark:     There's two classes of kids that we saw. Tim:        Oh, absolutely. You walk into a village, you know which ones are the slave kids. Which ones are the restavek kids, and which ones are, you know...they're totally... You're dressed differently, they're sad, their countenances are different, and we have... We're getting intel all the time, right now, and I can't... There's other tactics we're using that I can't reveal right now because I think we're getting closer to Gardy and other rescues in this area... Mark:     Thousands of rescues in this area. Tim:        Thousands... And we need the Haitians on board, though, before, before we can, um, do anything. It's a very sensitive situation, because we're fighting a culture. Even though it's against the law in Haiti to enslave people, it's still a cultural situation that's very, very difficult. They've never had the resources to do anything about it anyway, so they never...they don't think about doing anything about it. But here we are, coming in and putting the ideas in their head, "How are we going to do this? How are we gonna...How are we..." Again, Gardy becomes the hook, right?... Gardy keeps us there, because we want to find him, but we can't help but help these other kids when we find them, too. It's going to take some time. Right now, all we can do is gather the intelligence, give it to our embassies, give it to our government partners, and slowly devise a plan. There is no question about it, this is... slavery is alive and well in Haiti, and it involves children...it involves you know, we see the kids, the girls are taken into Dominican or other places and forced into sex trafficking; the boys, some of them get pushed into sex trafficking, a lot of them, most of them, become slave labor victims. That's what we're up against, and we're in it. That's where we are right now. There's a, um...At one point during that medical clinic, we recognized that we needed to tell Guesno, because he needed really to be looking for Gardy, and it was a hard decision, and it's probably the most emotional scene... It's in one of the episodes. The Abolitionists crew actually caught it. We took him into our car, and said, "Guesno..." because he kept asking me, I thought you guys were a rescue organization, I didn't know you were a medical group... Mark:     But he was totally there helping kids get healthy. Tim:        He was only there to help. Mark:     Was not thinking about Gardy. Tim:        Mm-mmm. Wasn't even thinking about it. And he kept saying, he kept telling me, "Why are you guys doing this?" I'm like, "Ah, you know, we like to help any way we can." He's like, "Oh." Well, I finally get him in the car, and say "Guesno, I've got to come clean with you. We're here because we have intelligence." And I gave it to him... It's off the camera, because we can't reveal our sources, but, and I said, "We have helicopters on standby, over on the Dominican side... These cops are here, there's undercover cops here that are carrying guns... We are all here because we think Gardy's here and we're here to rescue him." And the spirit that filled that car...and-and-and-and-and-and-and instantly, Guesno, just... just a flood of tears. But they weren't, they were, there actually, it was, it was emotional, not bad, I mean, it was actually...he said, "I have never felt so much hope, since Gardy's been taken. I've never felt so much hope that I feel right now." And he told me that, before that had happened, he had a spiritual manifestation he didn't tell us about. He believed he saw this little boy that was Gardy's age... It wasn't Gardy, but seeing that boy... He said something whispered to him, "Gardy's here. Gardy's here." And so when he heard me say that, it was like full corroboration about why we were actually there, and it was a flood of emotion. When that episode comes out someday, people will see this scene. And then, as we drove out, you remember, you were there, you actually took a Pulitzer-Prize-winning photo... Mark:     One of the best photos of my career... Tim:        Of Guesno... A tear-filled Guesno, as he's turning around talking to the police officer, who's pledging life and limb to never rest until we'll go back to that place and pull Gardy out. Find him, and pull him out. Mark:     Ok, now, why were we leaving the village, and under what circumstances were we leaving the village? Tim:        We left the village because... After we had serviced, medically, most of the people, the traffickers, who also were getting medical attention, they decided that now is the time to take advantage of us. They got what they needed out of us, now, let's steal their car. Let's kill a couple of them. And this mob mentality started to evolve, and we were surrounded by this group with machetes. Mark:     3-400 people... Tim:        At least... a lot of them with machetes, shotguns, and they were not going to let this go. And the village Elders kind of had a council, as you recall, and they came back and they said, "Look, we think you're great. We think you're innocent, but we can't control this mob, so good luck." And we just prayed our way through that one. I mean, we just prayed, and prayed, and prayed until finally, five gunmen turned to three, turned to two... blocking the road, and then we just went for it, and luckily they... Luckily they didn't fire, because... And we just got out of there, and... We've since been back, with different faces, under a different situation. So, we're back, we're there, they just don't know it's us. Mark:     So, as we are leaving, Jean-Paul, who is the cop, who is just a wild, ferocious cop gets famous in Port-au-Prince for taking down big criminals and being so aggressive, but he ends up being this tender-hearted guy who puts his hand on Guesno's shoulder, and just... We could all understand him even though we don't speak Creole. Tim:        That's right. Mark:     And, you know, Guesno was a little bit dejected because he's just got driven out by gunpoint from the place where he believed his son was. He now sees the babysitters of his children, and he was a little dejected. We all were a little dejected, and that's when Jean-Paul does what you're saying, hand on shoulder... Guesno turns around, like, tears in his eyes, Jean-Paul's just yelling, "We will find your son! We will find your son!". And, uh...Incredible. Tim:        And Guesno says at that point, once again, he says, "I have never been so full of hope." Mark:     And, it was Haitian? Tim:        It was the best day of his life, he told me, "This is one of the best days of my life, because Gardy's here. He's alive. We're going to find him." Mark:     And he was being told by a Haitian that he would find his son... Tim:        Right, and he didn't hear that very often. Mark:     And once again, you've started a fire in a country where the people are now taking over. Do you want to pause? 55:27 Tim:        Yeah, I gotta go. 55:28 Mark:     Oh, crap, we're leaving? All right. 55:29 Tim:        I gotta go. 55:30 Mark:     Part 2, coming up, next time on Slave Stealer. [move this to end, or delete?]   0:02 Mark:       Alright. Um, Tim was just literally dragged out of the room by um, by our team, and I, uh, know that we are leaving you here with possibly the worst podcast ending of all time...as we're driving out of the village, and, um, emptyhanded, without Gardy. As it stands, there are searches going on, intel being gathered in the area that is unprecedented, and our guys are discovering things and getting access that has never been gotten before. And so, um, we're going to leave Gardy and this story right here at the cliffhanger moment, and I think it's sufficient to say that the search for Gardy has indirectly, and in some cases directly, yielded over, um, 500 children pulled out of slavery over the last two years. 200 traffickers around the world, put behind bars... Um, and that continues. And I can speak for Tim, that he will not rest... He's already given so much to that promise to find Gardy that... That it'll continue and grow exponentially. And so, for Tim, who's now on his way to downtown Boston for an important meeting, I'm Marc Mabry, this is the Slave Stealer Podcast.

DARING TO GIVE GOD MY BEST Daring Faith: The Key To Miracles – Part 4 Pastor David Bamberry —November 1, 2015 “DO YOUR BEST to improve your faith. You can do this by adding goodness, understanding, self-control, patience, devotion to God, concern for others, and love. If you keep growing in this way, it will show that . . . Christ has made your lives useful and meaningful.” 2 Peter 1:5-8 (CEV) “Honor God with everything you own; give him the first and the BEST part of everything. If you do this, your barns will fill with grain and your barrels will overflow with wine.” Proverbs 3:9-10 HOW DO I GIVE MY BEST TO GOD? 2 Timothy 2:3-7 – A Soldier, An Athlete, A Farmer “Endure hardship with us like a GOOD SOLDIER of Christ Jesus. No one serving as a soldier gets tied up in civilian affairs—he wants to please his commanding officer. Similarly, if anyone competes as AN ATHLETE, he does not receive the victor’s crown unless he competes according to the rules. And the HARDWORKING FARMER should be the first to receive a share of the crops. Think about these three illustrations, and the Lord will help you to understand how they apply to you.” 2 Timothy 2:3-7 (NIV/LB) Lessons from the military — Like an effective soldier, I must… 1. I must define What I'd die for “The greatest love is shown when a person lays down his life for his friends.” John 15:13 (LB) 2. I must sacrifice my comfort. “Live a life of sacrificial love just like Christ loved us and gave himself as an offering and sacrifice for us.” Ephesians 5:2 3. I must eliminate distractions. Lessons From Sports 1. I must intend to win. 2. I must discipline myself. 3. I must stay focused on the reward. Lessons From Farming To reap a great harvest I must plant generously in faith 2 Promises Of Jesus: Luke 6:38 & Mark 10:29-31 The Soldier saves lives...The athlete wins the prize...The farmer’s harvest is a larger size (more than enough)

In this episode, I talk about: *My background *Why I started the podcast *Types of people we will interview *My hope and mission for the podcast *What I'd love from you

What I'd like to do today is talk about the basics.   If you're a defensive investor or a conservative person and you don't want to spend a lot of time on investing, follow this outline and you'll be fine.   With the bigger understanding that things do fluctuate, you have to stay with it so compounding can work for you.   If you organize your life in a certain way and then run it, anyone could do this.   We also learned from the story about the handful of rice that saving and investing is an attitude. It's not a function of how much you have, it's what you do with what you have.   Then I'd like to discuss my professors and my heroes.   It's important to me to recognize the influential people in my life and the books that we can read from the eminent dead. It’s all there for us to learn from. That's a fantastic way to learn. I’ve been blessed with a remarkable set of teachers. I want to share that.   Then begin talking about value investing, which is the big picture. That's what my life's been about, the great treasure hunt.   I'll touch on what are the three most important lessons I've learned.   Then for the rest of this series, we can roll out all kinds of stories and examples and particulars, interesting insights that if you're a defensive investor you don't need to know. You can do fine with out it. But if you're an entrepreneurial investor, that's where it gets fun.   IWDP03

Thanks for your patience, listeners. We've been busy but we think this one will be worth the wait! (We apologize in advance for the sound of the air conditioner in the background. It was 100 degrees in the studio and while we love you dearly, we decided you could live with it) In this episode, we discuss just ONE movie. Well, kind of. We watched five different versions of The Hunchback of Notre Dame and came away with some pretty interesting thoughts on the story, different ways it was interpreted, and cinematic history, in general. Enjoy! 1923 - What was that? I didn't hear what he said. 1939 - Hey, Quasimodo looks familiar! 1956 - Where's the hunch back? 1996 - "What I'd dare just to live one day out therrreeee" 1997 - Was that Mandy Patinkin? Get at us: flickyeahpodcast@gmail.com, flickyeah.libsyn.com, @flickyeahcast, subscribe/write a review on iTunes. Peace, love, and movies.

Elizabeth and Andy play the fun game: "What I'd miss most if you died" Then they answer listener questions about dealing with annoying friends who think they're parenting style is better, when in a relationship one should share their struggle with depression, how to get immersed in the world of podcasting and build listeners, and lastly - a question posed to all our gay laimewads/weds out there: when should a father tell his young son that it's okay to be gay? Enjoy!

What use is an F-call? In my day-to-day environment I meet lots of different people. Many of them are not Amateurs. In fact, most of them are not Amateurs. That's not to say that I cannot see that some of those people could be, and some have Amateur written all over their forehead without ever realising it. Now it's not for me to tell you to go out and convert people to Amateurs, that's your job - Hi Hi. What I'd like to look at is, "What is it that brought you into Amateur Radio?" I've said in the past that for me it came as a surprise. I knew two people, one of whom was a "known Amateur" the other not. I'd never talked about Amateur Radio with either of them. The person who is the "known Amateur" has had their license for many years, as long as I've known them, 20-odd years, likely longer, I've never gotten around to asking. The other "secret Amateur" was the one who is responsible for me becoming aware of this hobby. It all started pretty innocently, here's a WiFi Quad-Copter, with an Amateur Radio license we might be able to extend its range to something useful. It went in a whirlwind from there. Since I became an Amateur, I've been fascinated with how people became involved in Amateur Radio. For some of those, the incentive was lost in the history of time. For others it's fresh as the ink on their license. One Amateur I spoke with talked about how Amateur Radio was their opportunity to first step in a very challenging and rewarding hobby. Bounce signals off the moon, talk to people of all ethnicities, social positions, religions, colours, creeds etc. Join a group of earth people that have few boundaries. They wistfully added, "Maybe this is just one of the seeds of the 'world race'." Your reason for joining Amateur Radio likely looks nothing like any of the ideas or reasons I've just mentioned, perhaps you have a distinct first memory. Perhaps you might consider how you got the Amateur Radio Bug and how that might relate to the people around you. Perhaps you'll find new Amateurs in unexpected places, or find old friends where you never looked before. I'm Onno, VK6FLAB

This is the last post that where I discuss the 13 proposals in the Filmmaking Manifesto from Mike Jone's blog, Digital Basin from earlier this summer. I've learned a lot, have you? During these episodes I've tried to stay focused on Mike's ideas and how CDIA measures up against it from my narrow perspective as a film student.I plan one more show on this topic where I talk about what I've learned personally. It's not a recap or summing up, though I will probably spend a few minutes doing discussing just that. What I'd really like to do is reflect on some things that were a little too far off topic to include previously as well as some actions I want to take.This week I'm going to cover the following items:11 - Creating Personal Stories12 - Collaborative learning13 - Teacher as facilitator As far as personal stories are concerned, I'll elaborate on the writer's block I've experienced. Happily in the previous post in this podcast I believe I have beaten off. Look at #43 for more details. I haven't read much on how to write, but I was strongly affected by Stephen King's book On Writing and since he's the kind of author you either love or hate, I included two reviews of the book.I'm very interested in the use of wikis and wikia for collaborative learning. There are applications for business, education, content managment, anything. I cite Podcamp as a place that uses wikis for scheduling presentations. It's anarchic, but in the right situation it can be the right tool. You should listen to Mike's audio presentation on Blogs, Wiki's and the new world order.On the subject of teaching again, I invoke the words of Kahlil Gibran on children.

Features include: Screening Report; The Sci-Fi Review: Odyssey 5; Music Section: Air through the Engine; Badger's World: Episode 7: Dirt; Moonshine: Episode 2: The Mysterious Doctor; Chen, Chen and Shaw: Attorneys at Law; What I'd like to see in the Big Damn Trilogy

Researched and written by: Michael QaissauneeIn Death by Powerpoint, we talked about becoming a better presenter, but we (myself included) take for granted that the copious notes students take in class capture the key aspects of our great lectures, are well organized, and will provide what students need to retain for tests and for further courses. Have you ever looked at your students' notes? As an exercise, try collecting and reviewing notes from a cross-section of your classes. Most faculty won't be surprised to learn that good note-taking is a lost art. This got me to thinking ... Where do our students and our kids learn to take notes? What I've concluded is that we don't, at any level, do any formal education on note-taking - it's all ad-hoc; most teachers are rightly focused on the content. But what's really troubling here, is that good note-taking is a critical part of learning and clearly we don't do enough to teach it and to reinforce with students the importance of good note-taking. What I'd like to introduce to you today is the Cornell Note-taking method. Developed by Cornell's Walter Pauk to help Cornell University students better organize their notes, this system is just one of many different strategies designed to help students take more effective notes. No one method is better than another, the goal is to find a method that works for you. I encourage you to share this method with your students and encourage them to give the method a chance. At the very least, it will get them and you thinking about how they take notes. The Cornell Note-Taking System To use this system, separate your page into 3 separate sections (nice illustration here), as follows: The Notes column (6-6.5 inches wide on right) is the largest and primary section. This is where the notes go, whether they're lecture or textbook notes.  Stress using bulleted lists for easy skimming, as well as economy of language - abbreviations (see resources below), short sentences and fragments and eliminating all unnecessary words.  The Cues column (2-2.5 inches wide on left) is used to highlight main ideas, clarify meanings, give examples, draw diagrams, or link ideas and examples. If done well, this area is where you do the bulk of your studying from. The Summary area (1-2 inches high on bottom) is used to reinforce concepts and provide an overview area where you write a sentence or two to summarize the notes on the page. This section is great for skimming your notes and locating information.  Now for the technology You didn't think I'd do a blog without including some sort of technology did you? I really don't have the time nor the inclination to sit with pencil, paper and a ruler to layout the Cornell method. So instead, here are a couple useful links: The Cornell Method PDF Generator is a web-based form that creates printable PDF's in the Cornell style with either unlined, ruled, or graphed notes sections. Cornell Word Templates provides instructions for creating your own Microsoft Word Cornell template, as well as down-loadable template that can be customized to suit your needs. Other Resources Note Taking - Symbols and Abbreviations This site provides a great list of common abbreviations that can help students take down their lecture notes as quickly as possible. Temple University: The Cornell Note-Taking Method This link shows an example of a page of notes taken using the Cornell method. Using this as a handout is a quick and easy way to illustrate the method to students. Temple University: General Note-Taking Tips A site with more general tips and suggestions for better note-taking. A great place to send students as they start to think about their note-taking. BYU: The Cornell Note-Taking System A nice overview of the Cornell system. Not the only place to learn about the system, but a good starting point. Some additional PDF resources on the web can be found at PDF Pad. PDF Pad allows you to generate pdf version of a variety of useful documents, including Calendars Flags Graph Paper Smith Chart (for Electrical Engineering) Staff Paper (for musically inclined) Storyboards (for aspiring directors and producers; and maybe control freaks) Sudoku