Podcasts about XYZ

How do you lead change when you’re not the boss? Casey Sinnema shares what it takes to build trust, influence outcomes, and make Monday feel a little less dreadful. Overview What happens when you give a self-proclaimed utility player the freedom to poke holes in broken systems and lead cross-functional change without official authority? In this episode, Scott chats with Casey Sinema about navigating ambiguity, building trust without a title, and leading impactful change through curiosity, clarity, and a deep understanding of what people actually need. References and resources mentioned in the show: Casey Sinnema Wolf Pack by Abby Wombach The Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins Micromanagement Log Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum. Casey Sinnema is a self-described utility player who’s built a career by asking great questions, poking holes in broken systems, and leading meaningful change across teams—without ever needing the official title to do it. With a background in accounting and a talent for cross-functional problem solving, she brings curiosity, empathy, and real-world savvy to every challenge she tackles. Auto-generated Transcript: Scott Dunn (00:01) Well, welcome everyone to another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I am your takeover, not your normal host, of Brian Miller, who's done a smash up job over a hundred plus episodes if you haven't checked those out. But part of the podcast takeover was not only a fresh voice, but also perspective and a lot of what I typically focus on for the people who know me. On leadership and culture and leading change. And I thought of no one better that I'd rather talk to about some of this. Casey Sinnema and I'll give you a little bit of introduction about who she is, what she does. Maybe also I think it'd be fascinating Casey on how you yourself in the role that you have. I think it's kind of a cool role, at least on paper. You can flesh that out a little bit more but I'll hand off to you. Tell us a little about yourself. Casey (00:46) Yeah, hey, thanks for having me. Yeah, so I currently am most often referred to as a utility player. And I'm still trying to figure out my elevator speech for how I talk about what I do because my role, my title is manager, which doesn't say much, right? And I actually don't do a function, but the easiest way to talk about it is I'm a project manager of sorts. I'm involved in a wide variety of projects from a varying level of involvement, from leading the project to leading the change to being a key stakeholder to just being the voice to leaders or executives or that type of thing. So yeah, I am a little bit of everything. And I got here on accident. I have... Scott Dunn (01:32) I was... Casey (01:34) You know, way back in the day when I was, you know, doing the like, what am I going to do for the rest of my life? I'm like, I just want a marketable skill. So I have a business degree and I went into accounting and I quickly became the troubleshooter. So I would go into a company, troubleshoot, fix the process, fix something broken, and then find myself in another company doing the same thing. And, so throughout my career, I've just sort of built this unique set of skills that allow me to poke holes in processes. and help companies fix them and then kind of find the next thing. So that's just kind of how I wound up here. I've been at my current company for almost a decade, which is going to be a record for me. And, but I'm still doing the same thing. I'm moving around the company and finding new places to, you know, rock the boat a little bit. Scott Dunn (02:20) Cool. Very cool. Yeah. It does sound like you have a number of things on your place to where that makes kind of expand on that a little bit and where you comfortably share those stories as we go through some of this because there's a lot, there's a lot more underneath based on what Casey shared before. And I love it that you found yourself like a happy accident and I guess have enough challenges and learning and growth there as long as they move you around that you're, you know, you need to be working on that are meaningful. things to be working on. Casey (02:51) Yeah, absolutely. That's the biggest thing, right? Is to like find work that you find valuable and that has an impact on the people around you, which is, know, squarely aligned with my values. Scott Dunn (03:01) Well, you touched on one thing that I know a number of other people could relate to and I could too as well as the kind of troubleshoots process can just easily see that things aren't working at a larger view. Some of that. maybe add on a little bit. What is it like about your role? For those who are kind of thinking they're in quasi space, they can hear you talk about that role and like, hey, that sounds like me too. What are the points of that different projects, different things you're involved with that that's what really lights you up? Casey (03:27) Yeah, I, it's so interesting because a lot of us find that the things that we're good at are the things that, you know, give us energy and that motivate us, right? I happen to be uniquely skilled at poking holes in things, including in my own life. So it works in my personal life as well. I could just sort of see things from different perspectives and find the gaps. And so it just sort of on accident. I think what's interesting is Scott Dunn (03:43) You Hmm. Casey (03:53) throughout my career and throughout my life, the biggest challenge has been to hone that skill for good, right? To lead with kindness and to manage my expectations along with the expectations of the world around me and troubleshoot the things or poke holes in things that need holes poked in instead of like everything. You know what mean? Scott Dunn (04:15) I love that. Two things that I want to, I guess, add on a little bit more there. One, you mentioned something and the other thing is I think you might just put out there like, same thing from different perspectives. I imagine for the people, we've all been around folks who just they only think their way. And you're just kind of reflecting on that. But Keith, it sounds like you can go into a meeting and you can hear three different state views and you can genuinely understand from their perspective why that's important to them or why that's a problem to them, right? If I'm hearing you. Casey (04:42) Yeah, absolutely. That's really key in all of the different types of projects that I've played a part in, right? Like hearing things from different people's perspectives and really understanding what they're looking to get, what they need and what's in it for them and being able to connect those things across stakeholders. Scott Dunn (04:59) Yeah, that's powerful. Yeah, but looking for commonality, alignment, et cetera. I do think there's a specialness, and we've talked about it a bit, like in the facilitation class, that looking for those folks having common and generating alignment is a unique gift that we just don't see a lot in corporate people kind of lobby for what they want. And actually, it's, it would be an afterthought to think about other people's perspectives and yet who draws different areas of the company together who are to get some new about the door or whatever like that. So you're kind of touching on that, which I think is really powerful. Is there anything that you see as like a go-to mindset that you bring in those situations or go to like tools that you're kind of using, whether that's things you're doing in writing down or in mural or even just how where your head is at when you walk into some of those meetings where you feel they have different perspectives and on the same page, you're supposed to walk out of that session on the same page. Casey (05:51) Yeah, the first one is to sort of leave my ego at the door, right? What I think is the right thing can't come in the door with me, right? Like I, of course I'm influencing, right? Where I feel like it matters. But it's not, I'm probably not the decision maker and the people that are not on the same page, when they need to get aligned, they need to be able to get there on their own. So what I think is the right way, I got to leave it at the door. So that's my number one thing. Scott Dunn (05:57) heheheheh. Casey (06:18) And then the next thing I do is just really stay curious, ask lots of questions, actively listen, model that active listening behavior so that everybody else is also actively listening. That's a big thing. And really just sort of helping people find a common language, I think, is really important. So I do a lot of restating what I'm hearing so that other people can maybe hear it from a different set of words and connect it. Scott Dunn (06:29) Hahaha Casey (06:42) more readily to the way that they're thinking about the topic. Scott Dunn (06:45) Yeah, you say these as if they're like, I mean those are short little pithy statements, but boy, powerful. I think it reflects an attitude beginning with what he said as the ego is like, we might know a whole lot, we gotta leave that at the door. Just at work, awesome. Here and you say something, I'm making notes like this would be good in life too, right? In personal life and relationships, stay curious, active. Don't assume that the way you see it is reality, right? So, I think that's super. The other thing you mentioned though was about Go ahead. Casey (07:17) I will say I'm better at it at my job than in my personal life because, Scott Dunn (07:23) Of course, I think, yeah, for everyone listening, they're like, me too. Why can't I do this? I can tell some stories. So the other one, though, you should just poke holes as if like, it's this little thing we're doing. But there might be something inside. I think I might be able to relate that is driving perhaps towards this isn't running as well as it could, or this isn't running. I think we know that, or this could be better. Something inside you that that you feel is churning, that you're seeing holes no matter what that is, if it's a small process, large process, a team, multiple teams. Tell me a little bit more about what does that mean to you when you say poke holes in things? What's running through your mind? Casey (08:01) Yeah, it's complex, right? Because sometimes it's really easy. This is broken. you know, right? Or there's a bottleneck, something that's really like you can, it's data driven, you can see in the data where something is not working well, that those are the easy ones, right? And you can just start asking sort of the five whys or the finding the root cause of what's happening there. Scott Dunn (08:06) Those are the easy ones, yes. Casey (08:26) But in the case where there's friction or there appears to be barriers or there's just this. any kind of challenge or even when there's not a challenge, quite frankly, I have this unique ability to like listen across people and across like data and technology. That's a weird thing to say is listen across technology, but I sort of just find where things are misconnected or disconnected and start to ask questions there. And so I can find something that maybe isn't working as well as it should without anybody else noticing which. Scott Dunn (08:35) Yeah. Casey (08:59) I've learned I need to be careful with. Scott Dunn (09:01) That's great. So at least the next question was any hard lessons, anything so you could do a redo on that one that you could pass on so someone else doesn't have to learn the hard way from Casey's experience. Casey (09:11) Ha yeah. Everything I learned, I learned the hard way. So if you feel like that's what you're doing, you're not alone. Yeah, the thing that I have learned probably the most often, and I will learn it several more times in my career, I'm sure, is when I think I have found something, go make sure it's true before you start to really socialize it. So like, I'm going to go ask the question of the expert. Scott Dunn (09:20) Ha Whoa. Casey (09:42) before I bring it up because maybe I'm not seeing it from all of the right angles or maybe I don't understand exactly what it's doing or quite frankly maybe I'm missing some context. And so really talking and building relationships with people who are experts on the topic or in the field is really kind of where I start. Scott Dunn (10:00) was great, great period. the number of times we miss out on relationships, especially in that one, really key. Casey (10:00) And. Yeah. Scott Dunn (10:08) I think I'd add to that though. sometimes I'll phrase it as rather wait to be sure than lose capital because if I go out saying things that aren't true. So sometimes we'll jump in on the outing side and they'll be like, why haven't you gotten yet? And I'll be clear, like, I'd rather wait and be sure than hurry and be wrong. And then we got to that mess before we get back to the work we're supposed to be doing. And sometimes it's a while to pick that up, depending on who got affected by We'll put out there sometimes innocuously, we thought, well, here's the numbers results. And someone's like, that's actually not correct. But now everyone knows we have now we have a PR problem, something like that. So I'm not alone in that. I've been there. That's a tough one. But also on the coin, though, what would you point to as wins if you look back like that's talking about? That's why this is important. That's what you feel good about. Casey (10:54) Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I think from a win perspective, the, a really good example, I'm going to go way back in the day. I had a, a chance to work, in a motorcycle dealership and we had huge, was, you know, weird economic times, right? And so there's weird financial things happening in this, you know, motorcycle dealership company and, and, everybody's just trying to stay afloat and You find the like the friction between either the mechanic shop and the, the sales shop. And when you find those and you can solve those problems and make the experience smooth for the, for the client, right. For the customer and make that like walk in the door experience consistent and smooth. This in this case was just people, right? It wasn't even technology. wasn't really a process. It was just people. And the biggest wins are when like. the people start to notice. And then what happens is everybody's life gets better and everybody has more fun doing whatever it is that they're doing. And it just changes the vibe. Scott Dunn (12:08) I love that. I love that. I do believe very much like the work that we could be doing here. People enjoy their work more people enjoy coming to work. doesn't have to be a place that people don't want to be in or watching the class. I love you touching on that's great. Casey (12:21) Yeah, there's a balance there, right? Like, because they call it work for a reason. It's a job. We don't love everything that we do all of the time. But, you know, are we doing the things that we can do to make life good for ourselves and for others? Scott Dunn (12:33) Yes, so nice segue because what I feel like I've learned later in my career, we'll just phrase it that way, that the importance of self-care, taking care of ourselves so that we have the energy and attitude to keep doing work that we're doing, especially if you're a leading changer, in some ways you're a change artist trying to bring that about, change agent, it can be taxing. So are there things along the way that are either You just know a good way that you take care of yourself could be learning, could be space, could be the road you carry, or that you actually do to protect yourself and that work-life balance emotionally, mentally. you aren't kind of aware of, what does it look like to do good self-care and help make sure you're taking care of yourself to deliver good value in the workplace. Share what that means to you and maybe some of the things that you do. Casey (13:21) Yeah, it's so important, right? Like I am also not in the early stages of my career and still learning how to take care of myself and protect myself and, you know, build good boundaries, right? I, yes, yes. So I have good personal routines, right? Like I do yoga, I meditate. I'm a big fan of podcasts and. Scott Dunn (13:31) Hahaha Right. Boundaries is a good word, yes. Casey (13:46) I'm a learner, so I'm always learning. Maybe there's a boundary there too, like how much can you self-improve before it becomes, I don't know, toxic? But when it comes to boundaries, really it's, I start with the relationships, right? Like at work, making sure that my expectations are clear and that of my leadership chain is clear no matter what job I'm in. Scott Dunn (13:47) Hmm. you Casey (14:11) and setting boundaries that are clearly expressed so that I can protect myself and my personal life and that balance, and I can deliver the way that I'm expected to deliver. And that just makes life easier for me. Scott Dunn (14:23) Super, super, super, super. I'm thinking there's a lot of people. I it's a ways back. We cover accommodative and assertive, you know, as far as power styles and the cowl. And what's been fascinating for all these years, most people are all on the accommodative side. When I hear you say something like, hey, the expectations clear or use the word bad, that sounds like someone who has a balance of, no, I'm there for people, but I don't overextend myself to where I no good. Casey (14:23) Thank Scott Dunn (14:50) I burned something like that. So I think that's really great for everyone to hear. It hurt to define the relationship with make sure your expectations are clear for me. And then sometimes, you know, there's someone else that could take that on or might play this role, etc. But sometimes we're so helpful that we overload ourselves and actually don't do good job. We do, you know, average job on a lot of things instead of a job on a few and they could have found maybe someone else. think that's awesome. You said podcasts, there other ways, is that your way of learning? there other things that you, as far as what, for the learning side? Casey (15:26) Yeah, so books are my go-to. I'm somebody who does a lot of highlighting and note taking and flagging in books, because I'm always going back to them. And I love to learn things that are sort of outside of my lane, if you will. It's kind of how I got involved in Agile. I have a business degree in finance, and Agile doesn't really play into that until it does, right? And so I started to like, I'm curious about that, or I'm curious about Six Sigma or those types of things. And so I just sort of go find them and take the nuggets that apply directly to me and put the other ones on the shelf for like when it does apply to me, if you know what I mean. Um, so I just, I'm a learner, so I'm always looking to, to, to learn new things. I'll be frank, podcasts for me, I'm not learning things. I'm entertaining myself. Scott Dunn (16:20) I try, I try to really be focused to get, I like listening, but yeah, the actually applying is not as much. I'm definitely same about I'm a higher. Someone said the difference in studying is the pin. So I'm always like, unless I'm marking it up, am I really digging into this book or, or Kendall? So I'm to hear I'm not alone on that one. So I want to shift a little bit because some of what we've done is leading change. think the conversation we had were around. Casey (16:38) Absolutely. Scott Dunn (16:45) So moving around from just you to the broader culture, how would you describe what a great culture like or feels like? Maybe some of us haven't even been in a great company so they don't know. They can't picture, imagine what that could be like. And you've been to a number of places with different roles. What's good culture, great culture look like in your opinion? Casey (17:06) Yeah, I think that it's gotta be a cliche out there. I'm pretty sure I've seen it on a meme, but good culture is defined by how you feel on Sunday night, right? Like if you're not dreading going into work on Monday, right? Like you probably are in a culture that's a good fit for you because I think culture doesn't have a one size fits all perspective. Like big companies, small companies, different types of work, different groups of people. sort of lend themselves to different kinds of culture. I've been in companies where the culture is great for me and everybody else is miserable. And companies where the culture is great for everybody else and I'm just not a good fit. So I think that in general, good culture is... I talk about it in this like self-awareness perspective. If the culture itself is a little bit self-aware, then it is what they say it is. So if you say your culture is one thing and everybody agrees, including the culture, including the behaviors of what's expected in the environment, if all of those things are aligned, the culture is probably good, even if there are people who aren't good fits for it. I don't know if that answers your question. That's my perspective. Scott Dunn (18:03) Hehehehe That's great. Oh, it's it's better. That one's a good wrap up now. Like that really to me, it's a bit of a mic drop because it's so good. It's simple. But you're right. How you feel on Sunday night? A ton about what's happening with you and the job you have and what's happening around you. Absolutely. And that different like sometimes it is just a fit because a lot of people can be excited about it, but you're bothered by it or might rub you wrong. And I know we've gone through the values in the class as well. I've been at companies where we're absolutely about get stuff done and that's fine. But it's kind of a burnout. I love the very collaborative, but sometimes I'm like, man, I want to get stuff done. I'm getting frustrated that we're like, we really connect and talk a lot. I don't see stuff happening. So you're right. Obviously, you know, some people are sensitive to that. And that last piece about like the behavior. it should be considered. And I do sometimes see like leadership will say something or there'll be things on the walls. But you look around like, yeah, I don't actually think anyone's actually behaving that way. It's like an aspirational vibe about what they want to be, but they're not really doing it. So I think all those lenses are giving are right. And they're simple. Someone can look around and just see what you're saying. And then you make their own calculations of that. Some of the good. Some of that's a bit too. Casey (19:26) Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Scott Dunn (19:32) In the sense like either either change it for the better or You know what I mean? Like I don't want to be the person that's been there seven like this place is terrible What are you doing? What why have you been here 17 years hating it? I don't Casey (19:32) you Yeah, it's really important that we're honest with ourselves as much as our companies are honest with us, right? Like, what do I need from my job? What do I need from my career? And am I at a place that can support that? Scott Dunn (19:45) Good. Yes. Yeah, and and i'll serious in this case. I think there is some point where people I hear them And i'll just straight up. I don't think leadership has any intention to changing in the way you're describing Right. So in the end like so what would you like to do? And it's not even like it's a bad thing really. It's just like that's like It's a bit when you said that part some people are so passionate they forget like Yeah, and you're wrong like you could be wanting this coming to change in a way. It's not who they are or what they're about or you're Found by 80 people who are actually quite good with the way things The fact that you're so passionate doesn't mean you're right. It might just mean this is not a good fit. So don't stay here trying to change everything, which probably wouldn't work anyways if that's, you know, they're comfortable with what are. It's almost like in self-preservation, just say, I just need to exercise my agency and there's not a good guy. What's that song? There Ain't No Good Guy, There Ain't No Bad Guy. It's me and you and we just disagree. You move on to another and they'll be happier somewhere else is what I would think. So I think that's a good perspective. People can get past space about, you know, and agile and all that and then rail against something that's an immovable in some organizations. Casey (21:08) Yeah, being aware of the things that you can control, the things that you can't control, is really the crux of your own sanity, if you will. Scott Dunn (21:16) Yeah, it's a good way of saying it, Yeah, and you can control a lot of that. You can influence it. can influence it. Let me follow up on that because clearly, in my opinion, seems like you've that about bringing about change when you don't necessarily have authority. You can't dictate to some of these folks. What do you think is a key aspect of being successful around influence or people who... I get asked this all the time, how do we influence, how do we manage up, et cetera. What would you prefer as your thoughts on that about influencing others? Casey (21:50) Yeah, I actually listened to a podcast recently about leading without influence. one of the key comments, I guess I am also learning through podcasts, I guess. But one of the comments in the podcast was there are people who lead with a hammer, people who lead with influence. And I kind of love that because I haven't been a people leader in more than a decade. Scott Dunn (21:55) There you go. So they are some good. Casey (22:13) which means I don't have any authority, right? I lead all of my influence. All of my leadership is through influence. And the way that I approach that is I start with. It's a, it's a gooey word, but empathy, understanding the people that I'm talking to and working with and understanding what they need and what their challenges are, and then meeting them where they are. Right. The easiest way to gain influence with. Most people, is to build trust and to build trust, need to build relationships. And so I would say 90 % of my influence comes first from relationships. And probably the other 10 % comes from my ability to stand up and say, I was wrong when I did something wrong or when my perspective was incorrect and when I behaved outside my values, like just owning it up when I'm like, Scott Dunn (22:59) Wow. Casey (23:04) Yeah, I was having a bad day. I apologize. There's a lot of trust that comes from that kind of vulnerability. Scott Dunn (23:11) Yeah, which is not easy to do not easy to do But I've been in meetings where I like I know it like I don't play this year But I like things so in some ways people look at influence about how we phrase things or how we present but you're just saying like look happy build a real relationship Have some humility if you're willing to say we're wrong. So people know you'll also that when you're wrong or made of your core element of strength or something like that. think that's a real nice, everyone, if you think about that, that's not out of any of us to say, you know what, I'm going to try to be more honest and authentic and have some empathy and try to listen. Casey (23:45) Absolutely. It also helps to be able to connect the dots across different people and what they need and the strategy of whatever project you're working on so that you can connect the change to something that is it like what's in it for me, right? So what's in it for the people that you're talking to and being able to connect those things. So it's not just relationships and empathy, right? That's the soft stuff. It's that ability to really critically think about what it is you're driving change for. Scott Dunn (24:08) Mm-hmm. Casey (24:12) and connecting it to how each of these different stakeholders can benefit. Scott Dunn (24:18) Yeah, the part about connecting the dots and this is one thing if I'm ever in a meeting and I feel like I'm not getting it I actually will pause into my head. I'm thinking What is this person's concerns? And if I can't if I can't clear that I'd probably need to ask more questions but for any of us in those meetings just kind of go around through those stakeholders the people sitting around the desk or on the zoom and quick like in a sentence or two what what would be important to them? What are they? What's the win or what's the pain? But if you don't feel like you can articulate, then the good thing is you have to see that asking questions around that is never a problem because they're actually share because you're basically asking them about yourself. Tell me what's important to you. And they would like to share that. And it doesn't hurt to double check that. So I love what you're saying about connected dots. It won't be necessary that they're saying what you're listening and watching. I also watch what they react to. So something might jump out that would be outside of their say their role. but it's about people and there's an aspect that they really do care about how their people feel, not just the, this process is important in terms of our strategy and the technology we're using, but it might come out like, well, all their people would be really excited to put their hands on that new technology too. But they're not gonna say that because that sounds like that's a weak reason to be for a project, but you know it's important to them because they lead those people or that person. So I like what you're saying, connect the dots, think about those perspectives, because the empathy is gonna help them to connect in the dots, right? more is emotional than the logic of that stuff. So think that's great. Really, really great. On this, I believe you're remote, correct? Partially? Okay. ⁓ fully. Okay. Let's talk about that small. It hasn't come up in the last five years, but let's talk remote. So from your experience, it's always a big topic to me. I do care about this. I think we deal with a lot, every company, because some people at least that are remote, or certainly partial remote, Casey (25:45) I am. Fully. Scott Dunn (26:05) What's your thoughts on what to be worried about and what to make that successful? you're seeing more and more almost like these two sides of the aisle, maybe some aspect of demanding people come back. And yet you have a whole generation who can't buy a house. So I'm figuring out where's the balance of remote work. So yeah, your thoughts on remote work, how to make it successful scene. Casey (26:27) Yeah, I mean, I have two different ways I could approach this, right? I have the personal thing that what works for me part, right? But as somebody who is often having these conversations with people who are in various buckets of people who are, know, partially remote, fully remote, fully in the office, that kind of a thing, I find that what I think is less relevant every single day. I for sure feel I have a lot of privilege. Scott Dunn (26:33) Mm-hmm. Casey (26:50) being fully remote. Like that's really cool because it's good for me. I'm at a spot in my career where it makes sense. I'm good at building relationships in lots of different kinds of ways, including through, you know, zoom meetings and that type of thing. But I don't think that there's a right answer. I think that the each company and each team and each group of people need to find what works best for them. and make that happen. I see real benefit to being together, especially when you're early in your career or when you're doing something that you need a whiteboard. I mean, I'm pretty good at Mural. I'm pretty good at using the whiteboard in the Zoom meeting, but there's no replacement for standing at a whiteboard with a bunch of stickies and flowing out process. So I just don't... Scott Dunn (27:33) That's so true. You're so right. Casey (27:40) I don't know that there's a right answer. And I think that different size companies have different complexity of making that decision. And it sort of goes back to that comment we were making before. Like, if it isn't a good fit for you, find something that is. You know, I don't know. That's my thought. That's my thought. Scott Dunn (28:00) Yeah, true. Makes sense. For the folks that are managing or leading these remote work, are things that they do to make that go better in their context. Casey (28:12) Absolutely. are ways to, especially if you have hybrid, it even gets more complex, right? All virtual is the easiest way of virtual, right? Because then everybody's always virtual and you're always on Zoom and you're always on Slack and whatever. That's for sure the easiest way to manage teams that are virtual. When you have that hybrid space, you've got that opportunity to be in a conference room or in a huddle group or in the cafeteria. and on Zoom meetings, and it gets kind of funky, right? Because sometimes you can't hear, or you have those water cooler conversations. The key really is to have what I found is a good working agreement, right? Like, what types of communication are we going to have? How are we going to do that? What happens when we had a really great conversation in the break room? How do we communicate that to the rest of the team who wasn't there? And really just sort of build team trust through a good quality executed working agreement. And sometimes that takes a little bit more effort from the leader or even from every individual, right? But that's part of that culture, right? Scott Dunn (29:16) Right. I think the folks you make me think that's personally in a meeting and it's good that I try to get the groups together in these different locations as they're talking. I can't tell. I talking. I don't know these. I don't know them all that well. So I can't I can't tell by voice yet. If these are different groups are working with each other. The thing is, look, that person's kind of off camera or either they're on camera. They're so far back. Is that is their mouth moving? Is there a delay? I can't tell. So that sets the connection. I'm surprised for me as a more of a relator, how much it becomes a problem like nothing beats in person. So at least get that regularly. get in person. There was another client that saying that very same thing. Like they love it when we all get back together. And so they kind of have their cadence of pulling the whole group better. Could be like you're off site, could be all hands could be, but I think those opportunities to keep connection. I do like remote. I do think you have a good point about depending on the maturity of the career. Some people just know like I know I got to take care of these biopsy that they've noticed other XYZ. So they do too. So if they're new in their career, they may not even catch that I should be probably working. what is this at home on the zoom and in their PJs or something like that. I think it's a good point. Look at those and also the work. The fact that you would take that to the team and say, what do you all think is very empowering. You have an open conversation around what they all think and definitely there's a assumptions that people are making about what it should be, et cetera, but they those explicit and they kind of carry that around with them a little. Right. So that's a yeah, really nice nugget on that. That's everyone for sure. So last thing I'm to add a little bit on the back on leading change. So in this case, it could be remote, could be these other projects that we'll try to adapt. I think you'd say this earlier about there's no company that's not going through this crazy time of change right now. When it comes to change, have you seen something that's helpful, especially if it's a more significant change, you gave some good fundamentals around influence and trust and relationship, empathy, et cetera. Are there other aspects on how that change is rolled out or a process change or the groups that are leading the change that you've seen be like more systemically just successful aside that people might change, but the way we handle change is done this way. That you think there's a tip or two out there that would help out. They're trying to kick off, you know, a new way of working. We're trying to refresh remote policies or how they work, Because a lot of people in the middle of change. Have you seen overarching themes about how this lead that you found have been more successful? Casey (31:57) Yeah, think, gosh, it's the hardest thing, right? Like figuring out a way to roll out change across teams is the most challenging thing that I've ever done. And I've been doing it for a long time. And I'm always learning new ways and new ways not to do things and all that jazz, right? I have this little nugget that I got from a mentor. Scott Dunn (32:11) Hahaha, yeah. Casey (32:24) 20 years ago almost, and he's a motorcycle rider. And when you ride a motorcycle, the thing that you do to go on a corner is to turn your head, right? Turn your head to get to where you're going. And the non-motorcycle sort of connection to that is the what's my plan. And so really understanding what the plan is so that you can very clearly articulate what it is you're doing at each phase of the change. If you're prepping people for change, what's the plan? If you're starting to design a project, what's the plan? And just get really clear with where you're going, what the expectations are, what each individual person's role is, and be explicit about it because we're all dealing with a lot of things coming at us all the time. And if you're leading with kindness and you're saying, okay, your part of this is to simply accept the change. That's not condescending, that's empowering. That tells that person that like, this decision has been made, I gotta get myself there, and this person's here to help me get there. And so just being really clear about it, that's the biggest thing for me that I've seen that is successful. It's hard to do though, because that's a lot of people and a lot of Scott Dunn (33:36) Yeah. Well, yes, that's why it makes it so surprising. Number of times a company has to bring in outside help to get the change because it's not a capability or muscle they really have about how to change ourselves. Right. We execute against what we build or do here really well for help. But but that idea of getting outside the box and thinking different how we can improve, like you said, poke holes and so that's why I like it that there's someone When a company sees someone with your skill set and the way that you're wired and leverages it to say like, we kind of informally have this person like really helping things about because it's commonly not a muscle that they really have. Sometimes they have the awareness they don't, but sometimes they don't the long, really large change initiatives that take a long time and either never really get off the ground or never really where they should have gone or before they kind of just either die on the vine or we just call it, you know, just call it good. They don't draw in. It gets a group above everyone trying to lay change on top of folks instead of incorporate everyone into change and then go through it together. Learning together with someone like you that can connect the dots, connect with people, can bring that about. And think in a way it's really powerful and effective. Yeah, I was going to tease you. don't know if you have anything on that. But you mentioned books, you mentioned podcasts. Do have any favorites that you just would throw out? Classic go to book, current read, current podcast. Casey (35:01) My favorite all time book is a book called Wolf Pack by Abby Wambach. She's a soccer player, she's fantastic, and it's a book about leadership. It's like 70 pages long. It has a set of like four rules. And yeah, it's written from a like, you know, girl power, woman empowerment, leadership empowerment kind of thing, but it's universally adaptable to life, to it doesn't matter what your gender might be. what your job might be, Wolfpack. I can't recommend it enough. And then most recently, I read the let them theory and it's life changing. It's not a new topic, right? It's not a new concept. Of course you should control the things that you should stress about the things that you can control and let the things you can't control go, right? There's lots of different places that that comes up, but Mel Robbins just did a great job, like putting it into stories that you could like directly apply it to your life, or at least for me anyway. And I find myself quoting that book to myself pretty regularly. Yeah. Scott Dunn (36:03) That's a good sign. That's a really good sign. I find myself too. That's I literally will go through something. I start to realize like you've mentioned this book or this thing like three times now in the last few weeks. Like, OK, that's obviously significant. You didn't miss a time. you make another really good point. I really say like at the meta level in some ways, when it impacts you personally and you connect to it personally, it's going to be helpful and relevant in the work you do because you're going to be sharing the expression of who you are. And I say that because some people will go like, here's this top leadership book this year. I'm to read this well-known. And sometimes I'll struggle to just like really pick the book. Even if it is good content, I don't connect to it. I'm not sharing with others. It's not part. It doesn't become a home and gets spread. So I love what you're saying. Casey (36:48) completely agree with that. read, I spent a lot of time last year reading a book called Mind Your Mindset. I don't know if you've read that one. But in theory, it's great. But it's so business focused that like I didn't personally relate to it. And so I had to go find some other book that was less business structured to, to like, bolster that topic. All the words were the same. It's just the storyline really, really changes it for me. So telling stories, right, is the most important thing of how we connect. to the world. Scott Dunn (37:20) Yes, yes, yes. And I believe in that. That's how we're just wired. brains are wired. Story really sticks. And you're making me think like, yeah, those books I recommend the most are more not have a lot of stories, even if it's less directly tied to the work I do. Maybe it's not even technology. It's not even maybe it's not even around business, but it's got stories they do and stick and connect. I love that. So I'll check that out. I have not read Will Peck. I think I've seen it, but now that I know it, pages I'm also enticed to on that. I can get through it. Casey (37:52) It's one hour of your time max. Scott Dunn (37:53) us. If I can't do that over breakfast, then what's going on? Awesome. I appreciate that. This has been great. I think there's a lot of nuggets for folks that are listening. I wouldn't be surprised, by the way, that this could get chopped up into part one, part two. I think we like them. But this is great because I think it's a great part one, part two, given how we kind of split the conversations. And I love the personal aspect on that as well. So thank Thank Casey for the time. It's been wonderful. think I really look forward to people's feedback on this and a lot of takeaways, a lot of that can be, they can try out some of these things very next week in terms of how they show up and who they are and what they're about. There's just a whole lot of good pieces of this that I think are readily possible for so many people. So I really, really appreciate that too as well. I'm on automatic sites. love them. The Builder Backs, they can do something right away with that. And you gave them a lot of Thank you for that. Thank you for your time. I know you have a lot on your plate. for us, but you appreciate it. Hope to see you soon. Thanks Casey. Casey (38:54) Yeah, thanks for having me. Thank you. Scott Dunn (38:57) Woo!

Episode 141 is here, and we're wrapping up our review of XYZ's killer debut album! Side 2 brings even more hooks, heavy riffs, and soaring vocals—does the album stick the landing? We're breaking it all down and giving our final thoughts on this underrated hard rock classic. Catch the episode and rock out with us!

On this episode of The Founder's Sandbox, Brenda speaks with Alexa Steinberg – a corporate and transactional attorney for middle-market companies and entrepreneurs. Acting as outside general counsel, Alexa represents privately held companies in a wide range of general corporate and transactional matters, including entity formation, structuring, and commercial transactions. With a focus on mergers and acquisitions, she offers clients guidance on structuring deals and ensuring compliance with relevant laws and regulations. Brenda and Alexa discuss her journey from working at a small, all-female law firm to joining a full-service firm to better support her clients. Alexa shares how her parents—both deeply involved in business and community service—shaped her values around financial literacy, record-keeping, and the importance of building generational wealth. They speak about family-owned businesses and best practices in family governance, such as setting clear roles, regular meetings, and involving independent board members. Alexa also emphasizes the importance of building trust with clients and maintaining a purpose-driven, relational legal practice. Brenda and Alexa explore what "purpose-driven," "resilience," and "scalable" mean within the context of business and legal practice. You can find out more about Alexa at: https://www.greenbergglusker.com/alexa-steinberg/         episode transcript: 00:04 Hi, I'm pleased to announce something very special to me, a new subscription-based service through Next Act Advisors that allows members exclusive access to personal industry insights and bespoke 00:32 corporate governance knowledge. This comes in the form of blogs, personal book recommendations, and early access to the founder's sandbox podcast episodes before they released to the public. If you want more white glove information on building your startup with information like what was in today's episode, sign up with the link in the show notes to enjoy being a special member of Next Act Advisors. 01:01 As a thank you to Founders Sandbox listeners, you can use code SANDBOX25 at checkout to enjoy 25 % off your membership costs. Thank you. 01:18 Welcome back to the Founders Sandbox. I am Brenda McCabe, your host of this monthly podcast where I have guests that are either founders, professional service providers, corporate  board directors  that actually share a mission with me, which is bringing change to the world through great corporate governance, but building resilient, scalable and purpose-driven companies.  On a monthly basis,  my guests are going to tell their origin stories and kind of how I've met them. 01:48 through the work they do.  And I've recreated a fun sandbox environment in which we do storytelling. And ultimately we will touch upon resilience, purpose-driven  and  scalable or sustainable growth in the  businesses that they are  working in or owners of.  02:17 l I'm absolutely delighted to have as my guest today, Alexa Steinberg, Alexa is counsel  at Greenberg, Glasgow.  And before that, she was actually practicing in a smaller law firm and where her story today is going to kind of have some some 02:47 lessons learned on  why she chose to leave the firm and move into Greenberg, the Greenberg Lasker. But more importantly, you and I go back a couple years. are part of an informal group of women. We call ourselves Women and Wealth.  We meet periodically to really refer business to each other for those women business owners that 03:16 are seeking perhaps an exit in the next three to five years.  And through our skillset, some of us are CPAs, strategy advisors, yourself as counsel. A lot of these businesses are family owned. And so you and I and another, know, seven other ladies  get to meet each other over lunch and discuss these opportunities. And we're all very passionate about helping women business owners. Aren't we, 03:44 We are Brenda, thank you so much for having me on the Founder's Sandbox.  I am an avid listener, so I'm very excited that I get to be a guest. Thank you, thank you.  you know,  we've had many, conversations, obviously,  but I wanted for my listeners  to really dive into  what you do today, right? Which is really  purpose. 04:12 driven and it's preserving family wealth, right?  And I know that you actually come from a background where your father owned his business. So tell us  a bit, us down memory lane and that first story that you told me.  Well, you know, growing up, I watched both of my parents. My mother was a career woman.  My father, a financial planner. 04:38 running his  own book.  My mother,  a buyer and then in fashion and then into real estate.  I watched they were both very involved in the community. My mother sat on  the Studio City Council,  the Neighborhood Council. She was on many boards involved with the temple. My father as well  sat on many boards involved with the 05:07 Boys and Girls Club,  and  involved with the Jewish Federation. So I watched as my parents  really instilled the importance of being involved in  community, being involved in family, being involved  in the greater good and in purposeful and meaningful  organizations.  And I... 05:35 sort of learned a lot about that watching them both in their respective arenas being involved. And you know, they've, they've truly inspired me,  not only in my career path, but in  how I treat my clients  in the arenas that I've become involved in.  There's a specific story that I think I've shared with you, Brenda, about my father and how he sort of taught me 06:05 the value of wealth, the value of money, because as his career, that was what he did. He focused mainly on planning for retirement and financially setting yourself up and your family up to have generational wealth and what that looked like and how you could prepare for it when you were 10, 15, 20, 25 years old, preparing for family, preparing for children. 06:35 So when I turned 16, my father went into our QuickBooks. We had a family QuickBooks.  Oh, wow. That was before it was actually.  It was probably  a hard disk, right? Not even on the internet. Oh, yeah. It was like a hard disk. had a full set up, massive computers, the whole thing,  in our family office.  And he went into his QuickBooks. And he took. 07:03 what he spent on me in a year.  And he divided it by 12. And this  included insurance. Mind you, I just turned 16. So my car insurance, my car lease,  medical, entertainment,  my tennis lessons, all of these things that  were spent on me, what it cost  for me to function.  Children are expensive, you know. 07:32 I was very expensive because I will tell you that check was large  that he cut me every month.  And he laid out, these are the things that are monthly expenses for you that you need to pay with this money. And the rest you can use on entertainment,  gifts,  shopping, which I loved.  But I had to learn to balance my checkbook and balance 08:01 this amount of money, because I wasn't able to get any more until the next month.  And  that really taught me how that  money  was never something that was readily expendable to me. even if I went to Starbucks and I bought a drink with my father's credit card, he'd ask me for the receipt. He'd want to know where the receipt was, always. 08:28 I was very meticulous in his record keeping which I am now very much meticulous in my record keeping  and  I enforce with my clients and  make sure that record keeping is so important in your business as well.  You know and so when I when I graduated high school my father said to me okay the checks are done.  And you need to go get a job in college. 08:56 And what I will do is I will subsidize the paycheck that you bring home. So if you bring home $600, I will pay you 50 cents on the dollar for what you bring home, but only up to $300. So I could get a max of $300 every paycheck that he would subsidize. And then that was  how  I had money to live and to function. my parents,  I was lucky enough that my parents would pay for my college. 09:24 in my housing, in my dorms,  but  it was still really teaching me the value  of money.  And my father required that a certain portion of those funds get put away in savings and invested. And he would tell me how to do that.  And he would guide me.  because my father was a financial planner,  he would call me like a client and say, listen, 09:53 You're 70 % stocks, 30 % cash. I think you need to swap it. Let's talk about what that means. And of course, I'm like, you're my dad. Just do it. Why are we having this conversation? But it was so valuable because he wanted me to understand what he was doing and why he was doing it and how it really functioned. that I've also taken into how I guide and advise my clients. 10:22 I don't just do for them. understand, I want them to understand  how we're doing it, why we're doing it, what the alternatives  are and what it means if we do it this way or that way.  You know, a lot of my discussions with my clients are about strategy and about structure and  so they can make an informed decision.  You know, I think that that's extremely important, especially in a family business.  Working with your family is tough. So, 10:52 The way that you can make it that much easier is communication and understanding and knowledge. And I try to arm my clients with that. And that's something that my father really taught me.  my mother as well,  because my father managed our money and my mother  would bring it home and hand my father a check and be like, here, I don't know what you do with it, but do something with it. 11:21 She also  would, he would say, hold on a second. Like, I know you just sold a house and here's your commission check, but let me show you what we do with this and how we create generational wealth and how we invest it and what the best benefit for these funds are and how to use debt to our advantage.  Um, you know, and that's all of these things were such a value add that  I 11:51 I obtained understanding about and that I've now turned this value add to my clients  and how they run their business.  I'm not a financial advisor, I'm not a tax attorney. These are just really sort of  general  understandings and general guidance points for my clients to go out and  have knowledgeable conversations with the appropriate 12:21 guidance, appropriate people,  and the appropriate service providers that are going to help them accomplish those things. really,  this is very loaded, but I really like  the methods your father used. very, well, first of all, intentional  and bespoke. And that's really, and he did communicate to your mother, right? To instill also in her an understanding 12:52 of although she's bringing the check home because many, many women business owners today oftentimes do not own a majority of their companies. Right. And that is a shocking  statistic that I run into time and time again that women actually don't know how much  equity they have in their own business. Right. So just the informing and,  and you've translated that bespoke, you know, communicating 13:22 helping your clients understand,  pardon me, and  providing options as well as access to other professional service providers as  your own bespoke  offering to your clients. But it wasn't always like, yeah, go. That's sort of the benefit of the group that you and I met in and all of the networking opportunities that I've been involved in.  Of course,  networking is about building 13:51 um, your brand and your book and,  um, but a majority of it and the real value there  is  meeting and learning and understanding, um, and really coming to know people that can help your clients  where you can't,  um, and having  trustworthy referral sources to do that, because I'm not just going to tell my client, Oh, 14:18 this individual can help you with wealth management, call them without knowing how this person functions, without knowing  how they run their clientele,  how they do business. Those are really important things and to have trustworthy referral sources  is really important. And that's sort of what our group is  all about. That's right.  And it wasn't always like this. 14:46 Right, you graduated from law school  and started with a small, it was a, I think  a female-led law firm.  all female attorneys. Yeah, so what was your, this is right out of college, what were you doing  and what then informed your decision at a very tender age to leave?  So  right out of law school, 15:17 had worked my way through law school. I worked in family law for about five or six years. during the day, I was at a law firm. And in the evening, I took classes from 5 to 10 PM, four days a week for four years. took me four years to get through law school. And when I graduated, unfortunately, I wasn't afforded 15:47 All of the opportunities in law school  that most law students take advantage of, externships,  fellowships, things like that, because I was working my way through. I  had already been financially independent and I  wanted to stay that way. So I didn't want to quit my job  to go to school. I  wanted to be able to do it all. 16:15 So as a result, I really didn't have  the summer clerkships  that turn into job offers.  And I was a little lost because I had taken the bar exam and I was like, OK,  I'm not an attorney yet. But in three months, if I pass the bar exam, I could be.  Am I applying for law clerk positions? Am I applying for associate positions? Like, know, I was so lost.  And I went on Craigslist.  Oh my goodness. 16:44 And I found law firms that were hiring because I figured those people, you know, they're they're looking to hire somebody now, which is what I'm looking for. and hopefully those people, you know, will transition me into an associate role. If I pass the bar exam in a few months. And that was that was like my first sort of in. And I joined a very boutique law firm in West Hollywood. It was 17:13 By the time I left, we were three female attorneys. were  all female  for my entire tenure there. I was there for six and a half years.  And it was  in  late 2019,  early 2020 that I really decided I wanted more for my career and for my book of business. And I wanted to be able to  provide my clients  with a well-rounded 17:43 advice and guidance. I can't do it all, nor should I. I'm pretty sure my malpractice of insurance wouldn't like that. Not at all. But more and more, had clients that were asking me to help with litigation matters or employment matters. And those are arenas that I know just enough about to be dangerous. But I'm not going to run a full litigation. 18:13 I can't willfully and knowledgeably advise on employment matters.  You know, especially to  do justice by my client, do well by them.  I'd like to be able to  have somebody for them that they can speak to and trust and get the advice and counsel that they need.  And that really stemmed  my yearning to  branch out. 18:42 and go to a firm where I had all of those resources at my fingertips. I wanted more for my career, but my biggest drive was I wanted more for my clients.  I wanted really to be able to provide them with well-rounded, multidisciplinary  counsel.  And so I sought out  full-service law firms. 19:11 I found my home at Greenberg Gloucester, which  is a fantastic place to be.  I'm very happy there and everybody is so fantastic and  everybody is so good at what they do.  We've got employment and tax and  IP and litigation,  environmental, entertainment,  you name it.  And it's been such a benefit not only to my career, 19:41 to my clients, but I've learned  so much.  And is it true?  How would you characterize the typical clients without revealing, you know, confidential matters? Is it  also a firm that's  very oriented towards family owned businesses? Would you say that? Yeah, I would. You know, I'm  a counsel in the corporate and tax department. 20:08 And you we don't have a ton of institutional clients.  A lot of our clients are family owned businesses, mostly held entities,  you know, which I love on a daily basis. I am working with  two sisters that own a business together or a multi-generational company where, you know, senior is working with G2 and  G3  or 20:37 were actually this morning I was working on  assigning interests and reorganizing and restructuring a bunch of entities that own a bunch of real estate for clients.  And that's also  the kind of benefit that I get that I get to be pulled into  real estate matters with my corporate expertise to help a family office restructure their ownership. 21:04 You know, and I  love that stuff. We're extremely,  the way that Greenberg  provides advice and counsel  is on a very personal level. The way that  the firm  and myself, especially, we're a lifestyle firm.  You know, we understand that attorneys are people outside of 21:33 the walls of the office and that we all have lives.  And we, you know, I translate that to my clients. My clients have lives. My clients have other things going on than their business.  And especially when you deal with family offices and family businesses, there's a whole different dynamic  of  family interaction. Yes. You know, and, and I have now experienced that  not only with my clients  and sometimes I become 22:03 therapist in that regard, although I'm a very expensive therapist. I'm sure there people that are less per hour.  But  I'm experiencing it firsthand because my husband  has his own business with his brother  and I have  become  advice and counsel for them  as well. And so I'm  seeing it sort of from a different angle too, but I think that my clients truly appreciate 22:32 that when I talk to them, I talk to them as a person. It's not just as a business owner. It's not just as  I'm guiding you with this  legal advice.  It has to make sense.  And it has to  be actually applicable.  And sometimes what my advice and guidance would be  in sort of this like legal  box  is not the best. 23:00 for my client and how their business is operating.  And you've got to be  sort of fluid with that. And bespoke.  Yeah, so it's really beyond, it's not a transactional relationship. It is a trustworthy relationship based on the values of the family businesses that and their goals in preserving wealth  or continuing to generate family wealth. Yeah, absolutely. This is a great segue because you know, I also 23:29 passionate and have often guests that are sitting on corporate boards.  As counsel, have you observed any best practices and family governance structure? You talk about G1,  G2, G3, Have you observed any  best practices? We don't have to talk about bad practices, right? But any best practices that you would like to share here?  Yeah, you know,  I think that  I've observed that 23:59 Some of the most effective family governance structures prioritize clear communication,  well-defined roles,  professionalized decision-making.  I use this in a very loose  sense of the word, but you could establish a family constitution. Creating a board of advisors is always really important. 24:28 having independent members  in your board of advisors  is so incredibly valuable to have a knowledgeable, independent  person that can help through disputes. business disputes are one thing, but when you include a family dynamic in these disputes,  emotions can get high and heated. And so having  an independent third board 24:57 Third party board is extremely valuable. Somebody that can guide you, something that your family trusts. Those are some big things that I've seen as best practices. And I think that lastly, holding dedicated, regular meetings. 25:23 You'll talk about business, you know, at the dinner table or, you know, out and about you're at a kid, one of your niece's birthday parties and everyone's there and you're like, Hey, did you see that email from XYZ? We got to figure out how to handle that.  But  those are not the time and place and you're not going to have a productive conversation. And so you need to set aside and create boundaries between your family life and your business life  and set aside regular times. 25:53 weekly, bi-weekly, to have an hour conversation about what's going on, any disputes that need to be discussed, any decisions that need to be made.  And that's your time to solely be in your business mode.  Because having these conversation piece meals,  dinner on a Saturday night,  or  a family's birthday party, or  a holiday party, 26:22 It's not effective  for your business. And one of the biggest,  best practices  and the most, one of the most important goals  is to preserve your family relationships. Beautiful. You heard it here on the founder's sandbox to preserve family.  Absolutely.  Cause if you don't have family, do you have? That's right. 26:52 Family first. really important.  It's really important. And sometimes business can get in the middle of family relationships.  And it hurts to see that. It hurts to see  business  tear between  brothers,  tear between  father and son.  And I've seen those things in it.  There needs to be just a second to breathe. Yes. 27:21 and realize that there are bigger things than business  and that they need to be resolved, but they can only be resolved if you have a good relationship with your business partner slash your family.  They're your biggest support. 27:37 This has been immensely  actionable  in terms of  governance, the best practice you've seen in family offices. So thank you. Thank you for that. It's not often that I do have  a  lawyer  that works in this  arena.  Although family businesses just in the LA  ecosystem is 28:05 It's very predominant. very, very, you know, third, actually third and fourth generation now. So very relevant to your business and mine. Let's switch gears. You are, I believe, sitting on the board of directors or one of the committees of the Association of Corporate Growth. Yes. And tell us a bit what why what is the Association of Corporate Growth and what committees do you serve on? 28:35 And how do you further your business there? Thank you. The Association of Corporate Growth or ACG is a national organization  for professionals in the M &A sphere. So  you've got members that are  VCs, investment bankers,  M &A attorneys, wealth managers,  insurance specialists.  You sort of name it. Anybody that's 29:03 has some sort of involvement  in the purchase or sale of a business  or just surround sort of just general business governance that either prepare for an exit. You know,  those are the kind of people that are members of ACG.  And I got involved a few years ago.  And I think three years now, I've been sitting  on the Women's Committee,  which is a 29:31 Fantastic. We schedule and create women-focused programming within the confines of the ACG organization and really promote networking amongst women. More and more, I have had clients that have requested that they only work with women. 29:58 You know, and this sort of goes back to what I was talking about earlier about being able to provide  trustworthy referrals.  And I've met some incredible, incredible women in connection with ACJ. In fact, our group kind of came out of ACJ. This is how I met you, Brenda. And so  it's been a fantastic, fantastic  network to be a part of.  You know, I love planning the programming, our programming. 30:28 ranges everywhere from  talking about the state of the market  to  balancing family and career and what that looks like and  mental health. I think  I hate calling out a distinction that we are women in business  because I think a 30:57 A business person is a business person. I don't think it needs to be defined as such, but there is something to be said about the fact that  women have a different set of challenges in the workplace  than men do.  And a lot of those stem from  family life.  And that needs to be  balanced. And so there's a lot of programming  that the women's committee puts on that sort of 31:26 talks about that and  gears us in that direction  and gives us tools to be successful and to strive  in the face  of everything else that women just have to  deal with and take care of. That's for another episode here. Yes, very much so. Very much so, yes, as we all have balanced our careers and family priorities, right? 31:56 Let's switch gears. How do my  listeners contact you? How's the best way?  Well,  so I'm at again, I'm at Greenberg Gloucester. We're in Century City.  They can email me. It's  a Steinberg at gg firm.com.  And on our Greenberg Gloucester website, if you search people, I've got my whole bio and all of my contact information as well. Excellent. 32:25 Well, that will appear in the show notes. All right. So we're coming into the final  part of this podcast in which I actually  enjoy asking my guests  what the meaning is of certain terms that I actually practice with my clients. I'm working with purpose-driven companies, resilience. We work on resilience tactics  and  scalable business is sustainable. So I  always love the opportunity to hear 32:55 firsthand from my guess. What does purpose-driven mean to you, Purpose-driven means  a mission that goes beyond profit.  It taps into creating meaningful value for your customers,  for your employees,  for the community that  you operate in.  It's sort of about  building a company that 33:25 that stands for something.  And I'm very pleased to say that we have seen so many more companies  start out of a purpose-driven  goal.  There's a bunch of old companies and new companies. There's  a lot of companies that have this sort of one-for-one model. You buy one, we donate one. 33:52 There are socks companies, there are eyeglass companies, there are shoe companies, there are cleaning product companies  that sort of have  this  as their motto. And  then you see  additionally,  know, products and companies that are committed to the environment or sustainability and cleanup efforts. You know, that's really what  purpose-driven 34:21 means to me is that  these companies have a goal.  They want to accomplish something more than what they can show on their balance sheet. consumers of that product are helping them achieve that.  Excellent. Excellent. You've touched on even other aspects like  sustainable growth, right? Yeah. Right. What is resilience? You've been particularly resilient. 34:49 You having a father like your father,  building life skills early. would resilience,  what's the meaning to you? 35:00 Resilience is about  navigating challenges  with adaptability and with determination. It's about learning from your setbacks  instead of being defined by them, having them be a fire to your growth and having them  be the galvanization of your progress forward. 35:30 You know, and in business, it also can be about the ability to  pivot while staying aligned with your long-term goals, about the ability to,  you know, okay, there's a new regulatory,  new regulation that's gonna affect the way we operate. Okay, how are we gonna pivot to continue doing what we do,  but still can  stay in compliance?  You know,  that's really, 35:59 what it's all beyond your toes.  Excellent. And you're scalable. I'd like you to kind of share the meaning within the context of scaling the legal practice. What have you found to be  particularly  challenging or easy to do? Right. And scaling, right. Because it's a very bespoke practice. Is there any important, right? Scaling is absolutely important. Okay. 36:28 In my practice and in my business,  number one  goal  and  the biggest  galvanization point of scaling my practice  are my clients, my current clients. If you do a good job for them, they'll continue to come back. 36:59 and they'll continue to give you more business.  Creating a network. I watched my parents in their, both of their practices. All of our family friends  at this point have at one point or another been a client of my mother's or of my father's.  They've swapped clients,  referred to each other. And these individuals either started as friends and became clients. 37:29 or  became friends because they were clients.  And  that is the way that both of my parents have built their practice and their brands.  And that's how I want to do it too. It's a value add when,  attorneys are scary to begin with.  Nobody wants to talk to an attorney. It's expensive. Half the time you have no idea what they're talking about. It's language. 37:57 You know, but if you create this relationship of trust and of loyalty and friendship  and when you feel like your attorney  sees beyond just you as a dollar figure or you as a business,  it goes such a long way. And that's my main value add to my clients.  And in turn, they help me scale. 38:22 my business, clients continue to come back to me  and I'm able to continue to grow that because I can satisfy all of their needs with the network that I'm creating through places like ACG. You know, so that's, that's what I see is as scalable in my industry. It's extremely important.  And it goes to the heart of how I practice law and how, how I guide and advise my clients. Beautiful. 38:52 Thank you. heard it here on the Founder's Sandbox. Last question, Alexa.  Did you have fun in the sandbox today?  Oh, it was so fun.  Brenda, thank you so much for having me. This was fantastic. Thank you. So to my listeners, if you've enjoyed this monthly episode with Alexa Steinberg, counsel at Greenberg, Greenberg Gloucester, right? Greenberg Gloucester. Yep.  I encourage you to 39:22 sign up, subscribe either on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. I'm on all main podcasts streaming services where my guests talk about how they felt resilient, scalable and purpose driven  practices informed by their origin stories. You can find it here on the founder sandbox. Thank you and signing off for this month.  Thank you, Alexa.  Thank you. This was fantastic.  

One of the biggest misconceptions most people have is we think other people actually care about us.    And nothing can be further from the truth.    People only care about what they care about.    When it comes to sales, it's important to remember, most popelpe are not going to jump at the first offer you make.    And I see so many people run the typical line of "Hey buy my shit."   "If you like this, then you'll really like this....it's only XYZ-dollars."    The truth is, you have to be a bit smoother when you're approaching people.    It requires you actually caring enough to take the time to find out what they like.    What they think.    What they enjoy doing.    Why they do what they do.     So how do you build rapport long enough to have a conversation and gain someone's trust, especailly if they're a perfect stranger?    I'm glad you asked.    I'm going to cover how to be a socail recon master in this episode and how to leverage it to make more connections.    Build relationships.    Make more offers.    And close more sales.    About the ReWire Podcast   The ReWire Podcast with Ryan Stewman – Dive into powerful insights as Ryan Stewman, the HardCore Closer, breaks down mental barriers and shares actionable steps to rewire your thoughts. Each episode is a fast-paced journey designed to reshape your mindset, align your actions, and guide you toward becoming the best version of yourself. Join in for a daily dose of real talk that empowers you to embrace change and unlock your full potential.    Learn how you can become a member of a powerful community consistently rewiring itself for success at https://www.jointheapex.com/   Rise Above

The ASX 200 was up 11 at 8280 (0.1%), with some big movers hurting positive sentiments. ALL had an 8.9% fall on an earnings miss, and MQG slid 1.6% as ASIC looks at short selling reports. CBA reported a better-than-expected number and rose 0.8% with the Big Bank Basket up to $263.99 (+0.6%). NAB is rallying hard again. Insurers were better, SUN was up 0.9% with financials mixed, IFL toppled 15.8% as Bain pulled the plug, GQG saw some profit-taking, and XYZ and ZIP both showed a clean pair of heels. REITs remain under some pressure as yields hit 4.47% in the 10s. Healthcare slipped, CSL down 0.4% and SIG falling 2.3% with PME pushing higher again. Retail stocks slipped a little, APE down 2.4% on a broker downgrade, but JBH up 0.6%. ALL weighed on the sector. Tech stocks built on Tuesday's gains, WTC down 0.6% and the All-Tech Index up 1.5%. Resources were a mixed bag. BHP and RIO were around 0.5% higher, FMG was moving 2.2% higher, gold miners were mixed, GMD up 3.5% and CYL up 6.4% with NEM down 2.0%. MIN rose 4.0%, and LTR continues to roar ahead in the lithium space, up another 6.1%. Oil and gas better, WDS up 3.4% as oil prices rose, and it signed a deal with Aramco in Louisiana. In corporate news, MYX back from a trading pause as the US regulatory deadline draws close. On the economic front, wage growth came in at 3.4%, slightly higher than expected. Asian markets mixed, with Japan down 0.2%, HK up 1.7%, and China up 0.9%.  Want to invest with Marcus Today? The Managed Strategy Portfolio is designed for investors seeking exposure to our strategy while we do the hard work for you. If you're looking for personal financial advice, our friends at Clime Investment Management can help. Their team of licensed advisers operates across most states, offering tailored financial planning services.  Why not sign up for a free trial? Gain access to expert insights, research, and analysis to become a better investor.

Send us a text↩️ Luxury Refunds - Refunds are a business strategy.In this week's Baking it Down Podcast - Episode 211 - Luxury Refunds, Corrie wanted to recap yet another reminder on why luxury bakers should consider luxury refunds. 

Episode 140 is live, and we're kicking off our review of Side 1 of XYZ's self-titled debut album! From melodic hooks to hard rock attitude, this underrated gem from 1989 is packed with killer riffs and arena-ready vocals. We're breaking it all down—track by track. Tune in and rediscover this late '80s hard rock treasure!

The ASX 200 rose 36 points to 8269 (0.4%). 11-week high. Disappointing in some respects as defensive stocks saw sellers move to more leverage assets. Banks slipped with ANZ Ex-dividend, the Big Bank Basket down to $261.90 (-0.5%). MQG pushed another 3.7% ahead, with other financials doing well. HMC is up 3.7%, and RPL is rallying 5.7%. ZIP was the standout, up 8.8%, with XYZ bouncing 5.9%. REITs sold off as rates moved higher, 10-year yields up to 4.43%. Defensive industrials fell, COL and WOW went down hard, TCL fell 2.2%, and TLS dropped 2.6%. Tech did well but off highs. WTC is up 4.9% and XRO modestly higher, up 1.7%, with the All-Tech Index up 3.1%. In resources, iron ore drifted back a little, BHP up 2.1% and FMG up 2.7% with base metal stocks also in demand, MIN up 9.8% and LTR up another 3.5%. S32 had a great day up 5.6%. Gold miners were sold off on bullion weakness. NST was down 4.6%, with NEM down only 1.8% as EVN fell 5.3%. LYC dropped 3.8%on rare earth supply from China resuming. Oil and gas stocks are better, WDS up 3.7%, and STO rallying another 2.9%. Uranium stocks paused. Coal was a happy place, WHC up 3.2%. In corporate news, RIC successfully raised $125m to buy DNL's fertilizer distribution business. PNV is doing well on diabetes trials, and ALD rose 2.2% as it sold an NZ business. ASK rejected a takeover offer from Ki. On the economic front, consumer sentiment lifted on election results. Asian markets mixed, Japan up 1.7% with China flat and HK sliding back 1.5%.Want to invest with Marcus Today? The Managed Strategy Portfolio is designed for investors seeking exposure to our strategy while we do the hard work for you. If you're looking for personal financial advice, our friends at Clime Investment Management can help. Their team of licensed advisers operates across most states, offering tailored financial planning services.  Why not sign up for a free trial? Gain access to expert insights, research, and analysis to become a better investor.

May's Full Money Moon: Abundance, Prosperity & Self-EmpowermentHello star lovelies, and welcome to another Full Moon episode! Today, we dive deep into the powerful and financially abundant cosmic energies of May's Full Moon—aptly called the “Money Moon.” Explore practical wisdom and spiritual guidance on how the alignment of Taurus and Scorpio can help you build abundance, strengthen your foundations, and lean into the rapid pace of change for the rest of the year.Episode HighlightsWhat is the Money Moon and Why is It Important?This month's Full Moon stands out due to its unique alignment: the Sun in Taurus and the Moon in Scorpio, both at 22 degrees. Taurus symbolizes wealth, comfort, and intention, while Scorpio brings deep desire and transformative power. Combined, these energies provide a rare opportunity to reassess, renew, and amplify your prosperity—going beyond just finances to include emotional and energetic resources.Key Energies at Play: Taurus, Scorpio & the Numerology of 22The episode shines a spotlight on how Taurus's grounded, luxury-loving nature and Scorpio's depth and passion encourage you to build lasting reserves. The 22-degree alignment (2+2=4 in numerology) highlights themes of stability and strong foundations, urging listeners to create security not only with money, but with energy and priorities.Preparing for the Rapid Pace AheadThe “Money Moon” arrives at the metaphorical “elbow of the year.” With cosmic shifts accelerating in the second half of the year, this is a pivotal moment to solidify your inner and outer resources. Those who have done the inner work will find growth and expansion, while others may face endurance challenges if they haven't invested in themselves.Inspiring Quotes“Love and money are the same energy. You materialize those in your life in the same manner—they're from deep desire.”“Let's just choose to say: Okay, I have this bad habit, or this isn't really serving me, or gee, I really want to be doing XYZ—then we're just going to go do it, shed it, or shift it.”Ritual & Reflection: Trust, Abundance, and the Cycles of the MoonThe episode closes with a guided ritual, encouraging listeners to trust themselves, embrace their strengths, and build inner reserves, drawing inspiration from cosmic and elemental energies (like the stability of petrified wood and the mythical nightingale's song). The message: you are the abundance you seek, and now is the time to invest in your unique gifts.Connect & Take ActionIf you found value in this episode, be sure to:Subscribe on your favorite podcast platformRate and review this episode to support more purposeful contentVisit kimwoods.com for the latest forecasts, articles, and personalized quizzes to discover your intuitive Success SignatureStay tuned for more empowering ways to use the stars as you align with your soul purpose, reclaim your power, and create lasting prosperity.

Why I won't be buying Palantir technologies anytime soon When I'm out in public many times people ask me what my opinions are when it comes to investing, the markets or individual stocks. I have to say the one stock that people seem to be asking the most about recently is Palantir Technologies, their ticker symbol is PLTR. I believe I'm asked about this company because investors look at the hype of the past performance and the fact that this stock is up over 1,000% since going public in 2020. That creates excitement for investors, but is it worth buying now? The company currently trades around 60 times next year's estimated sales, and again that is sales not earnings! That makes it the most expensive stock in the S&P 500. There are signs that growth outside of the US is slowing and I don't like that they have three unnamed companies that accounted for 17% of the total revenue last year. Usually hype like this goes the same path, which ultimately results in large losses for buyers at this point in the cycle. A more recent example comes from the company Snowflake. In 2021, Snowflake hit an all-time high over $400 per share. Today that stock is down nearly 60% and trades around $167 per share. You don't hear much about it now, but I remember back in 2021 many people were asking about this company as well. I'm also not thrilled with Palantir's CEO, Alex Karp, who during an interview just a few months ago had some pretty nasty comments about analysts who don't agree with him on the stock price. He said “I love the idea of getting a drone and having light fentanyl laced urine spraying on analysts who've tried to screw us.” Maybe I'm old school, but I don't think that is anyway for the CEO of a company of any size to talk about anyone that does not agree with the CEO's position. Especially considering many times they aren't knocking the business, just the fact that this company's valuation is extremely crazy! I will also try my best to refrain from making any comments on Mr. Karp's hairstyle, but it just seems a little bit outlandish for a CEO to have that type of hairstyle. As far as the stock goes, maybe the craziness will continue and perhaps it does go higher, but if people ask me if they should buy, sell, or hold the stock, I would definitely say sell! I guess I now have to be careful of drones flying above my head that could be spraying fentanyl laced urine on me.   Good news, only 26% of big money managers are bullish A recent poll from Barron‘s magazine, which they conduct twice a year, found that only 26% of big money managers were bullish and thought stocks would go up while 74% were either neutral or bearish on stocks. They said 32% of respondents were bearish and that was the highest percent since 1997 while the 26% that were bullish marked the lowest reading since 1997. I think Barron's Magazine is a good source of information, but I was disappointed that they did not list the years of experience of the managers that were being polled. The reason for my concern is that the last big negative in the economy and the market was in 2008, which was 17 years ago. A current manager that graduated school at age 23 would now be 40 years old and they did not experience managing money through 2008. Living through and managing money through a challenge like that provided me with extremely valuable lessons that younger managers would not understand. But why is this negative report a good sign in my opinion? Their current asset allocation is only 64% in equities with 36% in other investments like fixed income and cash. They will not stay bearish forever and if they change direction in the next 6 to 12 months, they will start buying equities again, which will push up prices. If you're looking for value, the least attractive sectors were energy, real estate, and utilities. I have talked about my concerns around the Magnificent Seven and now only 10% of these managers think the Mag Seven will lead the market over the next six months. Even looking out 12 months only climbed 32% thought the group would lead the market. When asked about the strength of the US dollar going forward 12 months, 68% of the money managers said it will be weaker, which I agree with. Only 15% of the managers think it will be stronger a year from now. These surveys also provide an interesting insight into what other money managers are thinking.   Apple's stock continues to amaze me There seems to be so much negative news that continues to come out against Apple, but the stock continues to remain relatively steady given the amount of negativity. We all know about the tariffs and the delayed AI rollout, but I was definitely concerned by a couple announcements that would have large impacts on Apple's service revenue. This segment has been a bright spot for Apple, but in the most recent quarter it missed expectations and grew at just 11.6% compared to last year. The big concern I have is around Alphabet's estimated payment of around $20 billion annually to be the default search engine. There is concern if this will hold up given the ruling that Alphabet holds a monopoly and the need for remedies, but also this week Apple executive, Eddy Cue, added additional concerns. He stated the searches in Apple's Safari browser fell for the first time in April, something that has never happened in 20 years. He then added that the iPhone maker is looking at adding AI search options to the Safari browser. If they did this, would Alphabet really want to keep paying $20 billion a year for that right? I don't think so! The other major concern that seemed to get little attention was the fact that in a recent ruling a judge ordered Apple to immediately stop imposing commissions on purchases made for iPhone apps through web links inside its apps. This has enabled developers like Amazon and Spotify to update their apps to avoid Apple's commissions and direct customers to their own website for payments. This commission rate was around 27% for Apple and it could cost Apple billions of dollars annually. All this comes with the fact that Apple still trades around 25x 2026 earnings even though revenue is only estimated to grow low to mid-single digits. In my opinion, Apple really needs some good/exciting news to get this stock moving higher and at this time I don't see where that is going to come from.   Financial Planning: Breaking Down Retirement Income Taxation Retirement income varies widely in tax treatment, with some sources being far less tax-friendly than others. In order from worst to best, pension payments and traditional IRA withdrawals are among the least favorable—they're fully taxable as ordinary income at both the federal and state levels. Interest income from bonds, CDs, and savings accounts, as well as annuity earnings from non-retirement accounts, are also taxed as ordinary income at both levels and can trigger the additional 3.8% Net Investment Income Tax (NIIT) if income thresholds are exceeded. Rental income is similarly taxed but allows deductions and depreciation to offset some of the tax burden. Long-term capital gains and qualified dividends receive preferential federal tax rates—as low as 0%—but are still taxed as ordinary income in California and many other states. Social Security is partially taxed at the federal level—between 0% and 85% is included as taxable income depending on total income—but is not taxed in most states, including California, making it relatively tax-favorable. Roth IRA withdrawals are the most tax-friendly, being completely tax-free at both the federal and state levels if qualified. Understanding how each income type is taxed can help guide investment decisions during working years and inform how to structure withdrawals in retirement for optimal tax efficiency.   Companies Discussed: The Scotts Miracle-Gro Company (SMG), Block, Inc. (XYZ), Amazon, Inc. (AMZN) & McDonald's Corporation (MCD)

In the dark, away from attention, the metaverse grows, thrives even, with the introduction and assistance of AI. AI agents peopling metaverse worlds. AI-generated avatars. But one of the most interesting possibilities of an AI-integrated metaverse is AI architecture, not just for the speed with which virtual 3D structures can be created but the newfound intricacy. It's an entirely new avenue for artistry, both in 3D worlds, and also full-stop, a new frontier. Today, Colborn and Max talk with MOCA's resident Metaverse architect, Untitled,XYZ about UnMuseums,  a collection of AI-generated architectures and his final flourish for MOCA ROOMs. The nitty-gritty of process, conception, outcome, and consequence, expect all of that and more on today's episode of MOCA LIVE.

fWotD Episode 2925: American logistics in the Western Allied invasion of Germany Welcome to Featured Wiki of the Day, your daily dose of knowledge from Wikipedia's finest articles.The featured article for Thursday, 8 May 2025, is American logistics in the Western Allied invasion of Germany.American logistics in the Western Allied invasion of Germany supported the American and French operations in Northwest Europe during the Second World War from 26 January 1945 until the end of World War II in Europe on 8 May 1945.By the end of January 1945, the American forces had recovered from the disruption to the supply system and the large losses of materiel inflicted by the German offensives in the Ardennes and Alsace. Sixty-eight ships loaded with replacement ordnance were dispatched from the United States. Casualties were harder to replace, and about 49,000 men were transferred from service units to the infantry branch. The Allied forces had to advance across the Rhineland, which was in the grip of thaws, rains and floods. They were then confronted by the Rhine, the most formidable barrier to the Allied advance since the English Channel. The river was crossed and bridged, and railways and pipelines were run across it. Most supplies were delivered by rail, and five railway bridges over the Rhine supported the final American advance into the heart of Germany.Once across the Rhine, combat losses in terms of tanks, vehicles and equipment, and the expenditure of ammunition declined, while shortages of fuel and spare parts developed, as was to be expected in fast-moving mobile operations. The American logistics system was stretched, but came nowhere near breaking point. The railheads were pushed forward, the rehabilitation of the network keeping pace with the advance. No less than twenty-six engineer general service regiments worked on the railways, and by late April rail had supplanted motor transport and was carrying the bulk of supplies across the Rhine. By 8 May, when the war in Europe ended, railheads had been established at Stendal, Magdeburgy, Leipzig, Regensburg and Stuttgart in Germany. The Motor Transport Service organized XYZ, an express road service that moved supplies from the railheads to the forward units. Air supply also played its part in bringing the campaign to a successful conclusion, with a substantial amount of gasoline delivered by air in the final weeks.This recording reflects the Wikipedia text as of 00:36 UTC on Thursday, 8 May 2025.For the full current version of the article, see American logistics in the Western Allied invasion of Germany on Wikipedia.This podcast uses content from Wikipedia under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License.Visit our archives at wikioftheday.com and subscribe to stay updated on new episodes.Follow us on Mastodon at @wikioftheday@masto.ai.Also check out Curmudgeon's Corner, a current events podcast.Until next time, I'm neural Matthew.

The final step in this framework is focused on freedom, but more honestly, its about confidence, integrity and longevity. This is really what guys want… they want to LIVE their lives without the bondage of “what if I slip again” or “what if I get tempted”ENOUGH with this crap… freedom doesnt talk like this, and I want to explain to you HOW to get free. Its not about time, its about resolving root pain and finding completion in your heart - sure this takes time, but time is not the main factor.You need a guide for this, hands down. I would love to be that guide if you want to consider working with meIf you're ready to book a call and find out more about coaching with me, check out my calendar at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://secrethabit.ca/call/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠In this part 3 episode, I am going to talk all about freedom and the ways to develop healthy confidence.What works Finding clarity on the reasons for the root issues, not just the root issues themselvesResolving the root pain behind the unmet needs and woundsFinding completion with painful relationships Renewing the mind and restoring your identity in ChristWhat does not workFocusing on the present and seeing re occurring problems as part of lifeSeeing on going issues as your thorn in the fleshAssuming that the past is forgiven so there's no need to do any work with your childhoodGetting stuck in the busy cycle of recoveryConceptsReverse Engineering - finding clarity in why XYZ arouses youForgivenessSoul TiesRedefining Core MotivationsInner Child WorkApplicationLocate - seeing the boy inside of youLearn - understanding what's at the heart of your on going struggles with pornographyLead - Going from what feels true to what is trueJesus - Re-experiencing life through a new lens with JesusNEXT STEPS: Take Your Recovery To The Next Level:1. Book a Call with our Team to work 1:1 with Coach Shawn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://secrethabit.ca/call/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠2. Grab Our Free 90 Day Porn Withdrawal Guide: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SIG3jTjSAtEtsqxqHDI8fNG7m9L8mAv5/view?usp=sharing⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠3. Enroll in a Free DIY Mini Course: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://secrethabit.thinkific.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠

The ASX 200 fell for the second straight session, recovering from early lows, dropping 6 points to 8151 (-0.1%). Mixed sector performance. Healthcare worst performing sector. Pulled down by two biggest names. CSL (-2.5%) down as it flagged vaccine scepticism in US as a challenge. SIG (-6.7%) down after it took a $42.4m hit in transaction costs so far in FY25. Disappointment of WBC (-2.0%) earnings continued to weigh on Banks and broader index. CBA flat, Big Bank Basket down to $263.69 (0.6%). Other financials fared better. MQG (+0.8%) up as its conference kicked off. Also up are RPL (+0.9%), XYZ (+0.7%). REITs up as RBA rate decision draws nearer. Two weeks today. GMG up 0.2%, MGR up 0.9%. Tech more mixed. WTC down 2.2% as it stayed quiet on guidance give tariff difficulties. NXT jumped 8.3% as it smashed utilisation record on AI demand. Added to Growth on Friday.Want to invest with Marcus Today? The Managed Strategy Portfolio is designed for investors seeking exposure to our strategy while we do the hard work for you. If you're looking for personal financial advice, our friends at Clime Investment Management can help. Their team of licensed advisers operates across most states, offering tailored financial planning services.  Why not sign up for a free trial? Gain access to expert insights, research, and analysis to become a better investor.

You don't need more time — you need fewer false fires. If you constantly feel like there's just not enough time, this episode will change the way you see your life — and your to-do list — forever. Inside the Consistency Course, I hear it every day: “Life got busy. I meant to do XYZ. But the day got away from me.” And the problem isn't laziness or lack of motivation — it's the fact that we've confused pressure for priority. We've been taught to answer to what's loud, urgent, and externally expected. But that kind of pressure has nothing to do with what actually matters to us. In today's episode, I'll show you exactly how to stop working in your life — and start working on it. You'll walk away with tools to clarify your true priorities, protect your time, and reset your habits so they actually reflect what matters most to you.

Your ideal client is not just a woman with XYZ problem & XYZ goal. But if that's the only criteria you have for people to work with you, then NO WONDER you keep getting price objection after price objection. Inside today's episode, I'm going to reveal to you WHY people keep giving you the bogus excuse: “I can't afford it.” & the answer is going to surprise you. Xoxo, Camie HIGH-TICKET SALES MACHINE ⚙️

The ASX 200 started the week giving back 80 points to 8158 (1%) as the bank rally faded post WBC results. Slightly underwhelming and lack of growth to blame. WBC fell 3.0% taking CBA down 1.6% and the Big Bank Basket down to $265.29 (1.7%). MQG followed the other lower down 1.8% ahead of numbers Friday. Other financials gave up early gains, with RPL and XYZ, two of the only winners. REITs also slipped led by GMG down 2.2% and MGR off 0.9% with industrials also weaker. Retail sagged, PMV down 3.4% and APE off 3.1% with MYR down 3.5%. Defensives such as TLS slid 1.1% and REA down 1.8%. Resources held up better with BHP down only 0.9% and RIO off 0.9% despite rising Iron ore prices in Singapore. Gold miners were mixed, GOR jumped 9.4% on the takeover by Goldfields, NST up 0.4% and EVN up 2.1% with BGL rallying 2.2%. Lithium stocks were flat, LYC up 1.8% and oil and gas stocks crumbling in the face of oils fall. WDS down 3.6% and STO off 4.0%. Uranium stocks mixed, NXG down 4.6% and BOE up 0.8%. In corporate news, TYR pulled out of SMP talks, PLY dumped after CEO retires wounded. RWC warned on tariffs and fell 2.4% with EDV forecasting flat to modest retail sales growth. Nothing on the economic front. In Asia, China and Japan closed for a holiday. 10-year yields pushing higher to 4.26%.Want to invest with Marcus Today? The Managed Strategy Portfolio is designed for investors seeking exposure to our strategy while we do the hard work for you. If you're looking for personal financial advice, our friends at Clime Investment Management can help. Their team of licensed advisers operates across most states, offering tailored financial planning services.  Why not sign up for a free trial? Gain access to expert insights, research, and analysis to become a better investor.

The ASX 200 kicked another 93 points higher to 8238 (1.1%) as China appears to often its tactics. A big kick in US futures on the news helped. Banks led the way higher for a change. The Big Bank Basket up to $269.96 (+1.6%) ahead of the results kicking off next week. CBA up 1.4% and WBC playing some catch-up up rising 1.9%. MQG finally joined in, and other financials did ok with the exception of XYZ, which cratered 26.7% on a downgrade and disappointing earnings. REITs continued higher led by GMG up 1.4% and SCG up 0.6%. Industrials continued to find strength, WOW up 2.3% and COL up 2.1% with WES up 1.2%. Retail took a breather, but tech was mixed with WTC looking at a potential US acquisition up 0.7%. The All-Tech Index down 0.9% as CPU weighs. Off 4.1%. Travel stocks sold down after CTD issued a warning, off 10.0% dragging WEB down 4.2%. Resources initially languished buy bucked up as China news came through, BHP up 0.7% and FMG rallying 1.1%. Gold miners also picked up with news that GOR had gone into a halt pending a takeover offer potentially, NST finding a base up 0.7% and EVN up 2.9% on copper rallies too. MIN rallied 0.8% with LYC under a little pressure still on Ukraine moves and China holding a olive branch. Oil and gas better, WDS up 2.0% ahead of OPEC+ meeting Monday, uranium stocks continue to push ahead as shorts cover, PDN up 2.8% and BOE up 5.3%. In corporate news, CSC jumped 2.8% on record revenues. On the economic front, retail trade rose 0.3% MoM. Asian markets rose, Japan up 1.2%, HK up 1.6% and China closed for a holiday. 10-year yields steady at 4.22%Want to invest with Marcus Today? The Managed Strategy Portfolio is designed for investors seeking exposure to our strategy while we do the hard work for you. If you're looking for personal financial advice, our friends at Clime Investment Management can help. Their team of licensed advisers operates across most states, offering tailored financial planning services.  Why not sign up for a free trial? Gain access to expert insights, research, and analysis to become a better investor.

Toshia In The Pit By BradentonLarry - Listen to the Podcast at Steamy Stories. None of the men rushed ahead to get at her, and these good manners put them ahead of the sisters in Toshia's esteem. Smiling at them, Toshia decided to throw herself into things and get as much fun out of the situation as she could. She started to crawl toward them across the mattress, which prompted hoots and cheering from the audience overhead, and encouraged the men to join her on the mattress, walking on the mattress toward her.  When she was surrounded by them, she sat back on her haunches and smiled up at them. They cheerfully smiled back, and one of them, a cute guy with light blue eyes, dark hair and a thin physique, reached out to gently run his hand over her hair. Toshia reached up and brushed her hands over several of the cocks swaying around her. Before waking up in Eros, Toshia had never been with more than one man at a time. Since then, on her first night, she had had a man in both her pussy and mouth at the same time; the next day she had satisfied five men in a little gangbang orchestrated by Don, with the assistance of Shelonda; there had been her marathon in the disco, and the orgy in the steam room, when she had taken Don in her pussy and Peter in her ass, as well as comparatively light play during the masquerade, when she'd been fucking and sucking simultaneously; and, of course, there had been her time with the satyrs. She remembered how much she had come to love fucking here, and had discovered her love of XYZ saturated cum. She recalled the delirious and delicious frenzy that she had surrendered herself to in the disco, and felt her body responding in anticipation as she leaned forward to brush her cheek against one of the five cocks at her disposal. She began to stroke the two cocks which were currently in her hands and bent down a little to kiss one of the two cocks in front of her, which were now standing out a bit, offering themselves to her. She kissed the other one, then, and licked it. She moved to the other, licked it too, and then took its purple head into her mouth. Toshia slowly sucked on it, as if it were a hard candy, feeling it swell between her lips. The cocks in her hands were stiffening quickly, and the man behind her, who must be the one with the big dick, continued to stroke her hair and shoulders. The other men followed that one's lead and began to touch her. Strong, rough, but gentle hands caressed her face and neck, and moved over her arms and touched her breasts. Toshia released the one cock from her mouth and caught the other she'd kissed in her mouth. She bobbed her head on it a little, looking up at the two men directly in front of her to make sure they were watching her. Seeing that they were paying attention, Toshia pushed herself forward, and let this cock slide over her tongue and down into her throat. She held it there for a long moment, breathing through her nose. Then, she pulled back, only to turn and give the same treatment to the other cock. She was dimly aware that the women above were shouting encouragement, but Toshia's attention was on the cocks in front of her and in her hands, and the hands that were exploring her upper body, particularly the ones that were now pinching her nipples. This last made her moan around the cock in her mouth. Toshia pulled off this cock, then, and turned to her left, pulling the cock she'd been stroking with that hand to her mouth. While she was sucking that now very stiff prick, the man behind her knelt down and reached around to run his big hand over her belly, as his other hand continued to tease her tit. The man behind her kissed her shoulder and his fingers delved down between her thighs, brushing against her clit and touching her wet lips. The all too brief and tantalizing caress sparked another moan. One of the men in front of her knelt down then and leaned in to kiss and suck at her free breast. Toshia took this as a cue to turn her head to the right and give the cock in that hand the treatment three of the others had enjoyed. She found herself sucking with growing enthusiasm. The sensations of those thick, hard cocks sliding in and out of her mouth were enough to get her riled up all by themselves. The thought of having five of them to herself was an additional thrill. The man behind her then managed to part her pussy lips with his large fingers and to push a digit partway up her. Toshia responded by rocking against him, rubbing herself against his hand and trying to get that finger to penetrate deeper. She would have leaned forward, so that the man behind her could fuck her from behind, but there was a man in front of her, sucking on her nipple, blocking her way. Instead, she tried leaning back a little, to make it easier for the man's finger to get into her. Soon, she was lying back against this big man, feeling his cock pressed against her lower back. His was the only cock in the bunch that wasn't fully hard yet, but it was already long and thick. Now he was able to fuck his finger in and out Toshia's pussy freely, rubbing his hand against her clit all the while. Meanwhile, the other guys had gotten on their knees around her. Two men now had their mouths on her tits, while two of them made sure that she always had a cock in her face. Laughing, she took hold of both of these cocks, brought their heads together and sucked them both into her mouth. She'd seen this done in porn films, but had never done anything like it before. She stuffed both cocks into her mouth as far as she could, which wasn't far, and then released them, but held them so that she could play with both heads with her tongue. One of the guys in front of her, the one who had been first to drop to his hands and knees, was kissing down her belly, and coaxed the hand away from her pussy. Toshia whimpered as the finger left her, but then moaned in appreciation as she felt that large finger replaced by two slightly smaller ones and a warm tongue lapping at her clit. She went back to sucking one cock at a time, deepthroating one and then the other, until her first orgasm hit her hard. She moaned and trembled as she sucked hard on the guy lucky enough to be there at that moment. Toshia didn't wait to stop shaking before she went back to enthusiastically sucking. The guys were ready to change things around, though. The man who had licked her so well backed away, and the big guy behind her lifted her up off him and scooted out from behind her. Toshia fell backward, letting her legs splay out, one managing to slip between one guy's legs and the other caught by one of the gentlemen whose cock she'd just been sucking. For a moment, she saw the sisters around the big opening in the ceiling. They seemed to be watching the action closely. For some reason, the idea that she was putting on a show for those women added a lot to how turned on Toshia was. She tried to spot Daphne – she wanted to make sure the dark-haired bitch could see that she was having fun – but the men and their cocks crowded out her view. Four of the guys were kneeling around her upper body, including the still relatively limp dong of the guy who'd been so patiently behind her until now. She smiled up at all the guys, but focused on that one big cock, reaching up to run her hands over it and to pull it down to her lips. She could feel someone parting her legs and then lifting her hips up off the mattress, but Toshia concentrated on kissing and licking the head of the cock in her hands. She felt a hard head being pushed into her pussy and pulled the other into her mouth at the same time. She wrapped her legs around the waist of the man inside her, pulling him into her until she felt him filling her and then fucking her. As the cock in her mouth grew harder, she had to turn her head to the side so the big man could keep it between her lips. The other three guys continued to move their hands over her body, concentrating mostly on her tits, which were being caressed and pinched almost constantly. The cock in her pussy was fucking her steadily, and her pussy was milking it with each thrust. Letting the man with the big cock hold her head in place and gently fuck in and out of her mouth, Toshia moved her hands over the other available men, grasping for their hard organs and stroking and pulling at them whenever she found them. Toshia was loving all this attention, and was sure she would come again soon, but also thought there must be more efficient ways to do things. For one thing, she wasn't giving this deliciously thick cock the attention she wanted. She pulled her head back, and, once her mouth was clear, said, "Let me up for a second." As soon as the guy fucking her pulled out, Toshia rolled over and got up on her hands and knees. Looking back over her shoulder at her erstwhile fucker, she said, "Carry on, but you boys need to take turns." This made the guys all laugh. They cheerfully gathered around her again, hands all over her back, butt and tits, as that cock was pushed back into her waiting pussy. Toshia smiled at the guy with the big cock and said, "Now, bring that back over here." The big man grinned down at her and pushed his hard cock down so she could get the head of it into her mouth. She took hold of the thick shaft with one hand began to work the fat, purple head in and out of her mouth. It was soon slick with her spit and sliding in and out of her throat with surprising ease. He held on to her head again, and she let go of him so that she could find another pair of cocks to stroke. Behind her, her narrow waist was held tightly as a thick cock slid in and out of her grasping, wet pussy. She could feel the man's balls slapping against her clit as she felt his body pressing against her butt. With each thrust into her, Toshia was pushed onto the thick cock in her mouth and throat. She found herself grunting and moaning with animal abandon. Abruptly, the cock was pulled out of her pussy and there was motion on the mattress. Then, without any preliminaries a second cock was pushed into her. Apparently the guy who did not have his cock in Toshia's mouth or one of her hands was now fucking her. She pushed back onto him to welcome him. It didn't take long for him to begin fucking her with enthusiasm, and she was again moaning around the thick organ in her mouth. Then, again abruptly, that cock was pulled out of her, and one of the cocks in her hands was withdrawn, only to be pushed a moment later deep into her pussy. Toshia wished Don was here to see her fucking one guy after another in quick succession. She managed to glance to the side and saw her reflection in the mirrored wall. She was on her hands and knees, surrounded by men who were fucking her, while she deepthroated a hung stud. Don would love this! Then there was another sudden change of cocks fucking her pussy. She felt a hand slipping up along her belly until the questing fingers found her clit, just beneath someone's thick cock fucking her pussy. Strung between two male shafts, with her tits being squeezed and someone playing with her clit, Toshia came again, groaning loudly. The big guy in front of her pulled his cock out of her mouth, so she could catch her breath. Toshia looked up at him and the others with a happy grin, "Thanks, boys. Let's try something else." She had the big stud lay down on his back, and she quickly straddled him. She took hold of his hard cock, and pushed the fat head of it up into her pussy. "Mmm, nice!" she smiled down at him. Then she slowly lowered herself so that the thick shaft filled her completely. She paused a moment to adjust to the girth – it was the biggest cock she'd had inside her since the Manor – and then began to fuck up and down on it. Soon she was rocking on that big prick, enjoying the feeling of it moving inside her as well as the hard body she was grinding down against. The other guys clustered around her, their cocks in her face. She spent a few minutes moving from cock to cock, sucking on them each. Then, she concentrated on one, bobbing her head up and down on it vigorously and taking it down her throat. Pulling off it, then, she said to its owner, "Now get behind me and fuck my ass." Toshia was already sucking another cock by the time she felt the head of a cock pushing against her butt. She relaxed and exhaled as her ass was penetrated. After her time with the satyr's she was pretty comfortable with this, even though the cock in her pussy was much larger than that of any of the satyrs. Toshia let herself revel in the feeling of having her mouth, pussy and ass well-filled by cock. In another moment, she was being fucked hard in the ass, as she tried to keep her mouth and hands busy on the three cocks in front of her. She had the middle cock deep in her throat, and the other two cocks in her tight grasp when she felt the unmistakable thrusting into her from behind that indicated her ass was about to be filled with cum. She moaned encouragement and kept sucking and stroking. The cock in her butt swelled and Toshia felt the warmth of hot jizz shooting up inside her. As the guy behind her pulled out of her, she pulled back off the cock in her throat, looked up and said, "Your turn. Get back there and fill me up." As that man hurried to comply, the other two guys closed ranks and she pulled both of their cocks to her mouth. She had both of their heads in her mouth as her ass accepted its second guest of the day. The guy fucking her ass had been ready to blow when he was down Toshia's throat, and now that her tight, strong ass was squeezing him in its hot grasp, he was only able to thrust a dozen deep and hard times before he exploded up inside her. One of the guys in front of Toshia didn't wait to be told what to do, but hurried behind her to replace the man who now pulled out of her ass. This one hadn't been so close to coming, though, so he was able to give her a sound fucking. Shoving back onto him and the big cock underneath her, Toshia pulled the man in front of her closer and sucked his cock intently. She wanted to taste some delicious cum, and she meant to make this cock give it to her. One fist wrapped around the base of its shaft, she let him fuck in and out of her mouth and throat with abandon. All three cocks in her were plundering her body for every ounce of pleasure, and she was getting as good as she was giving. A series of rising orgasms blossomed at her clit and swept through her body, making her pussy and ass clasp hungrily at the cocks in them. Before she was finished coming, the cock in her ass erupted with what felt like a torrent of hot cum. That guy kept fucking her though, and was still hard inside her when the cock in her mouth swelled and a flood of cum filled her mouth. Toshia swallowed again and again, until there was no more to be had. Slowly, gently, the cocks were withdrawn from her ass and mouth. Of the five men, only the guy beneath her hadn't come. Toshia felt a playful sense of accomplishment at this, and was about to ask the patient man how he wanted her, when there was squeaking sound as the cell gate was opened again. The four men who had come slipped out and another four came in. "Oh my," Toshia said, noting that at least one of these newcomers was as well hung as the man in her pussy. Seeing what was going on, the man underneath her suggested, "Turn around and sit on my cock, so you can fuck it while sucking them." She laughed, and said, "Good idea." She pulled herself up off him and turned around, squatting over his cock, which he held up for her. She sank down on it with a satisfied smile, and beckoned the new four guys over. As she began to take turns sucking and stroking these new cocks, the man underneath her lifted her by her waist and lifted and lowered her, while fucking up into her. The up and down motion helped her stroke and suck the cocks around her. Oblivious to everything but the good, steady fucking her pussy was getting, the strong hands on her waist, and the cocks in her mouth and hands, Toshia gave herself over to being the instrument of sexual pleasure for these strangers. Before she knew it, the cock in her left hand was spraying a thick stream of white cum over her forehead and down her cheek. Laughing, she tried to get her mouth on that cock before more escaped, but just as she did, the cock in her right hand erupted, shooting cum all over her neck and tits. Toshia sucked the remaining cum out of those two cocks before releasing them and turning her attention to the remaining two cocks, including the other really big one. For now, she concentrated on the smaller of the two, sucking on it enthusiastically while stroking the larger with her hands. When the cock in her mouth spewed its delicious load down her throat, Toshia knew that she was ready for something more, and thought that she should try to give the guy beneath her something of a treat. She looked over her shoulder to explain what she had in mind, but then noticed that the cell gate was being opened again. Three new men were being admitted as the three who had just come left. "How many men are there?" Toshia asked. "Twenty six," the man smiled. This exchange, which had been heard above, set off a raucous round of laughter among the spectators. Toshia laughed and said, "OK, well, I'll worry about that later. For now, I want to try to take you up my butt. Be gentle!" He lifted her up, and she reached down to catch his cock and then pushed it back so she could feel the big head of it pressed against her asshole. Her butt was still slippery with cum, and his cock was very slick with her juice, but he would be the biggest thing she'd ever had up her ass. Toshia thought, If I pull this off and live, I'm going back to the Manor and having the Player and Igor double-team me! Slowly he lowered her and she opened herself up, until the fat head was up inside her. "Goddamn that's big! Fuck, it feels good!" she exclaimed, realizing that she was making a spectacle for the audience above her. Then, she added, "You ought to try this Wanda." This made the spectators erupt in raucous laughter, which then became applause. Toshia took hold of the forearms of the man underneath her and pulled herself down further. She felt simultaneously that she was tearing herself apart and that she was having the most intense sexual moment of her life. She wasn't done, though. Once she was sure she had that big cock firmly up inside her, she leaned back and beckoned to the man with the other big prick who had been watching all of this with great interest. He knelt down in front of Toshia, and pushed his cock down until the head was brushing against her clit and pussy lips. "Put it in me," Toshia said. "Fuck my pussy with that big cock." With a big grin on his face, this guy slowly pushed his cock into Toshia's waiting and very wet pussy. He wasn't even all the way in before Toshia began to come. Trembling all over and gasping, she managed to shout, "More! Give me more! Fill me with your cock!" The man beneath her held her in place, while the man over her pushed all the way in and then began to fuck slowly and steadily in and out of her. Toshia found herself coming over and over again as these two big cocks moved inside her. She wrapped her legs around the waist of the man in front of her and urged him to fuck her harder. Soon he was fucking that big cock into her vigorously, and Toshia was gasping and grunting in time with the thrusts. Slowly she became aware that the three new men were standing around watching the action and stroking their very hard cocks. Letting the man beneath her hold her in place, she reached out and caught one of the cocks and pulled it and the attached man closer. He bent his knees and Toshia leaned a bit to the side, so she could get her mouth on this new cock. The other guys came closer and one of them took hold of Toshia's free hand and placed it on his cock. She immediately began to pull and twist on it. The third man, directly over her, reached down to caress her hair and throat. Toshia responded to this by taking her mouth off the one cock and dropping her head back. She caught the balls of the man in front of her in her mouth and sucked on them, while continuing to stroke the cocks of the men on either side. The man whose balls she was sucking pulled back then and pushed his cock down so it could slide into her mouth. Toshia relaxed her throat and let him push into her. Soon he was fucking in and out of her mouth and throat steadily. Toshia lay back and let the cocks fucking her have their way with her; the only really active thing she was doing was stroking the two cocks on either side. Surprisingly, it was the guy in her right hand who came first, shooting a stream of cum over her upturned and sweaty breast. Toshia could only feel the cum splatter over her tits and then running down her hand. Then, the man fucking her throat was pushing more insistently, and the shaft filling Toshia's mouth swelled as a thick flood of cum washed down her throat. She tried to swallow without choking, and was mostly successful. Before the guy on Toshia's left could take his place at Toshia's mouth, the guy fucking his big cock in and out of Toshia's pussy shoved extra hard into her and shot a big load of cum into her, which spilled out of her as he drew that thick shaft out of her. Without waiting to be told or invited, the guy who had been on Toshia's left hurried to get between her legs. She smiled down at him as he shoved himself into her, squishing more cum out of her. It took him only a few good thrusts before he added his own seed to Toshia's pussy. Another three guys were waiting their turn, but Toshia held up her cum-covered hand. She said to the guy beneath her, "Let's roll over, so you can really fuck me." This maneuver was carried off with surprising ease; the big man's strength and Toshia's small size no doubt helped. Now Toshia was on her hands and knees again, as the original big cock of the day fucked in and out of her ass with enthusiastic abandon. Toshia just shoved back on that wonderfully large cock and ignored everything else for the moment. There were guys all around her, pawing her and stroking their cocks, and one guy managed to worm his way underneath her, kissing and sucking at her nipples as she fucked. All she was thinking about was fucking that cock and taking his cum in her ass. After all his patience, it didn't take long for this steady, hard fucking to bring him off. Toshia smiled happily to herself as he pumped what felt like a gallon of cum into her bowels. As he pulled out of her, she looked back at him and asked, "What's your name?" "Victor," he smiled. "Nice to meet you, Victor," she grinned. I'll have to find a way to bring him along when I get out of here. Then she was being pulled down on the hard cock of the man who had been underneath her. She rode this guy happily, taking the cock that was offered to her mouth as well. Then she felt someone behind her, and she turned to say, "Put it in my pussy, too." The new guy laughed a little and nodded. He pushed the head of his cock down as the guy underneath Toshia pulled out. They put their heads together and slowly pushed into her. "Mm, yeah," Toshia smiled and pushed back on them. "That's good. Fuck me together like that." She found herself wishing there were some way to get a cock into her ass, too, but contented herself with going back to sucking on the cock in front of her. She was amazed and delighted by how much her body could take, and how much pleasure it could give her. Her experiences in Eros had awakened the daring sexual explorer inside her. It didn't take long for the intense double-fucking she was getting to make her come yet again. Later, after this set of guys had all come and gone, and Toshia had completely lost count of how many men had come in and on her, she had another interesting idea. She was now again, lying back on a man who had his cock up inside her ass, and had taken five guys in her pussy, and a sixth was now pushing himself into her. She put a hand on this sixth man's chest and said, "Try to get into my ass too." "Ambitious," the man smiled. He pushed himself the rest of the way into her pussy, getting himself well coated with pussy juice and cum, and then pulled out. Working with the guy beneath her, he slowly pushed into her tight butt with his companion. "Oh my god!" Toshia shouted. "Too much, too much! No, don't stop! Fuck me. Fuck my ass! I'm such a slut!" With two cocks sliding in and out of ass, Toshia came in a spectacular, screaming display. She gasped and shook, clawing at the back of the man on top of her. They fucked her to two more orgasms, and then the man on top of her pulled out of her ass and moved around to push his cock into her eager mouth. She gave him a sloppy, enthusiastic blowjob until he pulled out and came messily all over her face and throat. Toshia laughed and pushed the cum into her mouth. Then the guy behind her rolled her over so that she was lying on her belly and he was fucking her ass hard and fast. When he finally came inside her, Toshia stayed in that position, letting the remaining half dozen guys, who might have been repeats for all she could tell, fuck her pussy or ass as they wanted. She was done coming, and was happy to just give herself up to these men who had given her so much pleasure. When it was finally done, Toshia rolled over and looked up at the sisters. She finally saw Daphne watching her with a frown. Toshia smiled sleepily up at her and blew her a kiss. The Stayrs have their way with Toshia. Chapter 8  Tracking Toshia Don scrambled down the last gravelly decline and looked frantically about for any sign of Toshia. Now that he had finally managed to come down from the area that had been separated from the river by a steep cliff-face, Don found himself in a lightly forested, grassy hill country, through which the river ran rapidly. On the other side of the river, beyond a small, and empty, grass clearing, were more hills and a thicker forest.  He, Nicole, Amy and Shelonda had followed the edge of the cliff, careful to keep an eye on the river below in case Toshia had managed to catch on to some outcropping or root. They had seen several cataracts – not too big, but large enough that anyone going over them would be plunged violently underwater. The last of those little waterfalls was only a dozen meters upriver from where Don stood now, making quite a bit of noise. By the time the girls had caught up to him, Don was already moving downriver, hugging the waterside and looking frantically for evidence that Toshia had made it this far. It seemed that the river was gradually widening, and this meant that the current would ease up, so Don thought it was increasingly likely that Toshia would have been able to make it to shore. He thought he would probably find her waiting for them. He needed to remain convinced that he would find her impatient and wet. Still, not finding her at all was better than ... some alternatives. After about ten minutes of his hurried chase down the river, he noticed that Nicole was trying to get his attention, calling, "Professor!" Hoping she had spotted Toshia, he spun around, almost colliding with Shelonda, who had been trailing him closely. "You better come look at this," Nicole said. She was looking out into the river. With a sinking heart, Don ran back to where Nicole and Amy stood. "What is it?" "There was something, or someone..." Nicole trailed off, staring intently at the water. "I saw it too," Amy added. "There!" Nicole pointed. Sure enough, there was someone in the water. Moreover, this person seemed to be beckoning to them. Don moved closer, actually taking a few steps into the river. The beckoner disappeared under the water, only to resurface a few meters away from Don. He could now clearly see that it was a beautiful young woman with big eyes and long straight hair of dark, emerald green. "Uh, hello," Don tried. The green-haired young woman rose up out of the water, displaying pale, perfect breasts. She pointed upstream. "Have you seen our friend?" The woman repeated her gesture, more emphatically. "Timmy's in the well?" Nicole smirked. Nobody laughed. "I suppose she's saying we need to go back," Don said, stepping back on dry land. "If she were here Toshia would say, 'You suppose?'" Amy said. She had already started heading back upriver. Once they had backtracked to almost where they had finally reached the riverside, the woman in the water got their attention by splashing water at them. When they were looking, she pointed at a small clearing on the other side of the river, or at the trees beyond the clearing. "Toshia went that way?" Don asked. The woman nodded. Without any hesitation, Don started into the water. "Hold on a second, Professor!" Nicole said. When Don turned, impatience written clearly all over his face and posture, she said, "Maybe we should think about this for a minute." "What? I can swim across that." "Maybe," Nicole shrugged. "You don't know how fast the current is. But, that's not what I meant. We don't know anything about that woman," she nodded toward the green-haired stranger. "Maybe she's trying to lure you to a watery grave, or something. Maybe she did that to Toshia." Getting into the spirit of things, Amy said, "And if Toshia got out of the river there, why didn't she stay there so we could find her?" Don frowned at the girls. He knew they had good points, but he couldn't resist the conviction that Toshia could be in trouble and he had to do whatever he could to find her. Apparently he wasn't alone, because while he paused to consider Nicole and Amy's caution, Shelonda dove into the river and began crossing it, swimming a bit clumsily while holding onto her staff. The green-haired woman watched Shelonda's progress with a smile, and made no move to interfere. "Well, that's that," Don said, and promptly dove in after Shelonda. The current was strong, but not so strong that he couldn't compensate. After a couple of minutes, he was pulling himself out of the water. He smiled at Shelonda and said, "Thank you." She just grinned back at him and shook the water out of her hair. Don found himself distracted by the way her tank top clung to her fit body and luscious tits. It had been an uncommonly long time since he'd had any release, after all. Shelonda broke his distracted train of thought by bending down to help Amy out of the river. Don turned to give Nicole a hand up onto the grassy bank. Once they were all on dry land, Don looked back ask the green-haired river maiden if she could give them any more information, but she was nowhere to be seen. Don decided to reassert some direction, before the others started to succumb to the enflamed sex drive that was already making him painfully aware of the wet feminine bodies so near at hand. He said, "OK, well, if Toshia came up here, something must have made her leave. Otherwise, as Amy pointed out, she would be here waiting for us. So, let's look around and see if there's some kind of sign or evidence of ... something." "There are animal tracks over here," Nicole said after a moment. The others gathered around a patch of dirt where a number of prints were clearly visible. "Hoof prints," Don nodded. "Deer maybe... No, pigs, or goats maybe." "Kind of big for goats, don't you think?" Nicole asked. Don shrugged, "I know they're not horses or deer, but that's about it." "It looks like someone went this way in a hurry," Shelonda said from further along the edge of the clearing. "What do you mean?" Amy asked. "Well, these little branches are broken, and those flowers are trampled, and look here – that's a footprint. It's about the right size for Toshia." "How did you notice all that?" Amy asked. Shelonda just shrugged, and kept moving into the woods, following the trail of minor destruction that she assumed had been left by Toshia. "I say we follow Shelonda's lead," Don said, "but everyone try to remember how to get back here, in case we lose the trail or something." Unfortunately, they had only gone deep enough into the woods to slightly diminish the sound of the river and that last little waterfall, before Shelonda drew up and shook her head, "I don't know where she went next." "That's OK," Don said. "Let's think, if she'd been running this way, where would she run next?" "Maybe that way," Shelonda pointed up the side of the hill in front of them. So, they all climbed up that hillside, moving slowly so Shelonda and the others could look for any sign of Toshia. At the top of the hill, Amy held up her hand and hissed, "Shh!" Everyone held their breath and strained their ears. Finally, Don asked, "What was it?" "I don't know," Amy shook her head. "I thought I heard something – maybe a sex sound, maybe a Toshia sound. I think it came from off that way somewhere, but I can't be sure." Don peered in the direction Amy had indicated, which was to the left of the way they'd been heading. He couldn't hear anything, but the river behind them. Then Shelonda, who had moved around a large rock jutting out of the side of the top of this hill, said, "Oh, she went this way!" The others quickly came around to join Shelonda, and they could all see the signs of someone crashing and sliding down far side of the hill. "How do you know it was Toshia?" Nicole asked. "Look," Shelonda pointed to a clear hand print in some wet dirt. If it hadn't been made by Toshia it had been made by a woman with a hand very close in size to her. Without waiting to see if the others agreed with her assessment, Shelonda followed the screed down to the base of the hill and then started up the next. Near the top, she paused, though. "It was so clear, but now..." Shelonda said as Don came up next to her. "Oh, she turned this way!" and headed to the left. "That's the direction I said, wasn't it?" Amy asked. Don only nodded and followed after Shelonda, who seemed to have had some kind of hunting or tracking experience before she was brought to Eros. Combining this with her martial arts skills, Don thought she might have been in the military, though he knew it might just be that she'd had a parent who took her camping a lot and then later she took kung fu classes. Following along after Shelonda, they made slow but steady progress along a line of hills that seemed to parallel the course of the river. Finally, after what must have been an hour, Shelonda led them up a particularly steep slope, where, Shelonda said, it was obvious that Toshia had climbed up using both her hands and feet. Just past the top of this steep slope, there was a small, leaf-carpeted clearing in front of a very large moss-covered fallen tree trunk. "Whoa! I smell sex!" Amy announced. Don could smell it too – not only the smell he loved so well of Toshia's aroused sex, but also of male cum, and quite a bit of both. "There's cum all over these leaves," Nicole noticed. "Someone's been having fun," Amy laughed. "It's hard to tell with the leaves," Shelonda said, "but it looks like Toshia tripped on that root there and fell here. Then someone had sex against that tree, and then more sex over there, on those leaves with the cum on them." "I'm starting to think Toshia doesn't need our help," Amy smiled. "Why was she running through the woods, then?" Nicole asked. Clearly, after the incidents with the sex-plants and the attack over the river, Nicole had adopted a much more cautious attitude toward Eros. Don thought that attitude was entirely appropriate. "If it was Toshia having sex here, and I agree that it probably was," Don said, "we should assume that it was against her will. But even if she was having fun, that doesn't mean she doesn't still need our help or that we ought to just abandon her." Nicole and Amy nodded their agreement, the former a bit more emphatically than the latter. Shelonda was already checking out the brush around the clearing. "They went this way," she announced at last. As they all fell in behind Shelonda, Don asked, "Are you sure?" "Yes," she said quietly, "but I think Toshia was being carried, and there are more of those hoof prints." The path they were following was more or less straight, angling upstream and away from the river. Though Shelonda said the trail was pretty easy to follow – "they were all together and not trying to be sneaky" – it was quickly getting dark, which slowed them down considerably. "What do you mean 'they were all together'?" Don asked. "How many were there?" "Three or four, plus Toshia, I think," Shelonda said. "We're going to have to stop soon. I can't follow them in the dark." "What's that?" Nicole asked, pointing ahead through the trees and deep shadows. "A light?" Amy suggested. "Probably a campfire," Shelonda decided. "I can follow that in the dark." "OK, but we need to be careful. It could be a trap," Don said. "We move slow and quiet, and nobody does anything crazy, alright?" The women nodded back at him. He was glad they all seemed to be taking this seriously. Shelonda took the lead, and the others moved behind her. Step by cautious step the fire in the distance grew until they could make out figures near it. Shelonda led them down into and then along a low gulley that kept them from seeing the fire for about five minutes. When she climbed quietly up the far side of the gulley, she stopped when her head was just over the top edge. Don joined her, lying on the ground next to her, looking at the campfire which was now not so distant. While it was easy for Don, Shelonda and the others to see what was going on around the campfire, those in that bright circle of light couldn't possibly see into the darkness of the forest where Don and company now spied upon them. "What are those?" Shelonda whispered in honest, open curiosity. "They look like satyrs," Don whispered back, while simultaneously gaping. There by the campfire was Toshia. She was on her hands and knees, while what looked to Don like a half-man-half-goat creature was clearly fucking her vigorously from behind. There was another satyr in front of Toshia, and she was stroking its very erect cock. Toshia looked over her shoulder at the satyr behind her and said, "That's it Scratch, keep fucking me!" Then she pulled the one in front of her closer and began to suck its cock. "Now that looks like fun!" Amy whispered in Don's ear with a grin. A third satyr came into view and promptly flopped on its back and scooted under Toshia, reaching up to play with her tits as the swayed over his face while she was being fucked. The three women were, like Don, transfixed and turned on watching their lost companion enjoying the rough pleasures of satyr-loving. They watched intently as Toshia pulled herself off the cock behind her only to lower herself down on the one beneath her. The satyr she'd called Scratch wasted almost no time, then in pushing himself into Toshia's ass from behind. During these maneuvers Toshia hadn't taken her mouth off the cock in front of her. Toshia's happy grunts and moans, along with those of the satyrs, carried easily in the night air. Amy declared quietly, "And that looks likea lot of fun!" While he was watching all of this, Don was acutely aware of his own, very stiff, cock, and the presence of the women on either side of him. Shelonda was breathing heavily, and Amy was moving her hand up the back of his leg. "What's it going to be, then, Professor?" Amy asked. "Do we bust in and 'rescue' her, or just join the party?" "She might not want to be interrupted at the moment," Nicole observed quietly. "Well, someone better 'interrupt' me soon," Amy breathed. "That does look like fun, Don," Shelonda added. Don had to admit that he had little to no interest in making the women wait much longer for sex. He thought there was a chance that Toshia might get hurt if they startled the satyrs, but he couldn't think of any way of doing that and not also giving them a chance to carry her off in the night. They did seem pretty distracted by fucking Toshia. By now Shelonda was biting Don's shoulder as she played with herself, her arm between her body and the earth, and Amy's hand was on his ass. Yes, something had to give. "OK," Don said, "this is what we're going to do." He stopped talking then, because he hadn't heard the "we're going to do" part. He tried, "That's weird!" but didn't hear that either. Then he noticed that he couldn't actually move and that the fire-lit scene in front of him was rapidly fading to black. Alarmed, he tried shouting, "Hey!" but not only did he hear nothing but he was pretty sure his mouth hadn't even opened. Then, everything was black, and he thought he must be asleep. Chapter 9 Toshia's Frustration Toshia was tied up again. This time, though, she was sitting down. She was tied to a wooden frame chair with a low back. Her arms were tied together behind her, bound at the wrists to each other and the chair. Her legs were tied at the ankles (to the legs of the chair) and at the knees (to the posts that supported the ends of the arms of the chair), so that she couldn't close her thighs. Other than that, she was comparatively comfortable, particularly in relation to being tied to that damned X-cross. Beyond that, though, she actually thought her situation was much worse. Shortly after passing out on the big, red-sheet and cum covered mattress, Toshia had been dragged out of the men's quarters and been washed down, first by several buckets of cold water, and then by a pair of serving girls who must have been chosen for their lack of gentleness. Then, she had been tied down spread-eagled on the stone floor in a room off the main hall where she'd been on display earlier. She was left there overnight and well into the morning. Toshia really hadn't minded that bit, though. Once she'd gotten used to the cold stone against her back, she'd been quite content to sleep. The lack of sleep from the previous two nights, each of which she'd spent tied up in one way or another, as well as the exertions of her hours of sex with the men, had left her in desperate need of unconsciousness. Still, she'd awakened hours before anyone had come to check on her, and the feeling of isolation that swept over her was brutal. Toshia had never doubted that Don must be trying to find her. She expected him to burst in and rescue her at any moment. Or, at least, she had. It was becoming increasingly difficult for her not to think that something terrible had happened to Don. In her more selfish moments she feared that he might have given up on her and decided to return to the Manor. More often, though, she didn't doubt his devotion to her, but worried that he might have gotten hurt or worse and couldn't get to her. Of course, the most likely scenario, she thought, was that he was looking but simply couldn't find her. In any case, the solitary confinement was ultimately lifted. She was untied, allowed to eat, and then tied to this chair, which was then hoisted up and carried into a big chamber off the main hall. This room was obviously the feast hall of the castle. Four large, heavy tables dominated the four quadrants of the chamber. There were also quite a few colorful pillows and mattresses here and there. There were, at first, no sisters present – only half a dozen serving girls who were cleaning up, refilling fruit bowls, and doing various other domestic tasks. Toshia and her chair were set on a raised platform at one end of the room, and then left alone for at least an hour. Then, Daphne came into the room and walked straight up to Toshia. The leader of the Sisterhood was wearing a crude metal breast plate and loin cloth, and was covered in perspiration, as if she had been engaged in vigorous exercise. She had her long, black hair pulled back in a ponytail. With an expression devoid of personal interest or compassion, Daphne checked the bonds around Toshia's wrists and knees. When she was satisfied, she placed her hands on Toshia's bare thighs and leaned forward so that her face was directly in front of and very close to Toshia's own. "You put on quite a show yesterday, pup," Daphne said with contempt. "That got me wondering if you can take it as well as dish it out. Tonight we're going to put on the show and you have to sit there and watch – just watch." Toshia realized the beautiful woman might just have discovered her Achilles' heel. Since waking up in Eros, Toshia had been acutely aware of the powerfully aphrodisiac effect seeing other people having sex had upon her. Watching Don with the Nymphets and then spying on people through the window/mirrors in the secret passage, had, in less than an hour, demolished her resistance to sleeping with her friend. Still, she certainly didn't want to let Daphne have the upper hand, so she smiled nonchalantly and said, "Bring it on, bitch." Daphne chuckled and left her sitting there. Another hour or so passed, with Toshia sitting there alone with her chair and her thoughts, before the sisters began to come into the hall. They had left their armor and weapons behind, and were wearing much more feminine garb. Brigit was wearing a long blue skirt with slits running way up both sides, and a necklace of flowers that almost looked like a Hawaiian lei. The flowers rested on top of her impressive, full, and very naked breasts. Other women were wearing open robes, loosely belted togas, sarongs, and the like. Daphne came in later, with only the robe she'd worn the day before barely covering her tits; her hair was loose now and fell over her shoulders. No one paid any attention to Toshia, but proceeded to eat, drink and be merry. Judging from what she could overhear, most of the conversation going on centered on fighting and physical training. Apparently the women spent a large portion of each day working out and practicing with their weapons. Toshia thought that Don and Shelonda would have their hands full fighting these women. Of course, given the filling nature of the fruit they were eating and the stimulating qualities of the XYZ they were drinking as water and eating with the fruit, it didn't take long before sex was breaking out all around the room. Toshia watched as, off to her right, a blonde woman carried on joking with her friends across the table while a woman with short brown hair lowered her face to the blonde's breasts and ran her hand up between her thighs. Just a short distance down that table, the big, freckled redhead who had licked Toshia's cheek her first day here was sitting up on the edge of the table with her strong thighs spread as another woman bent down to go down on her pussy. The redhead held the woman's head in place with one hand while pinching and twisting her own nipples with the other. On Toshia's left, a particularly attractive pair of amazons were making out passionately, naked breasts pressed together, and muscular arms straining as they reached down to play with each other against the hard surface of the bench they straddled. Beyond them, Brigit sat with her back to the table, and a warrior woman on either side of her. Toshia watched intently as the two women kissed and sucked on Brigit's breasts and worked their hands up under her skirt. Then she noticed that Brigit was watching her in turn and smiling mischievously. Toshia felt her cheeks burning with embarrassment and excitement. Her pulse was already racing a bit, and she could feel the wetness and heat of her pussy. In another fifteen minutes it seemed that there was nowhere she could turn her gaze and avoid seeing these women in some sexual act. Now there were women writhing on the floor around her, locked in 69s or twisting in muscular, feminine daisy chains. The aroma of womanly arousal filled the air. Daphne had known what she was doing, alright, Toshia realized. This was the easily the worst torment she'd undergone – to see all this unbridled and glorious sex on display right in front of her, assaulting her senses, and yet be unable to participate or even to touch herself where she desperately needed to be touched! Toshia tried to tell herself that this was just another test for her, to see how much she could take. She had pushed her own limits as to what she could do with her body to give and receive pleasure, and now she had to see how much frustration she could stand. Toshia finally caught sight of Daphne, who was coming back into the room, followed by some serving girls, including the petite brunette who Toshia thought must be Nina – the girl who had bathed and fed Toshia and given her a sweet and all too singular orgasm in the middle of the night two nights ago. The servants brought with them a chair similar to the one Toshia was tied to, and set it down in a currently clear part of the floor directly in front of Toshia's but several meters away. With her cold blue eyes on Toshia's, Daphne sat down in the chair. With one hand, Daphne reached into her robe and cupped her own breast. Toshia watched as the woman licked her own lips and smiled cruelly across the space between them. Then Daphne moved her hand lower, parting her long, firm legs until Toshia could clearly see the pink lips of her pussy. Sure that she had Toshia's attention, Daphne pushed the robe back, exposing her breasts. As much as she hated the woman – particularly in that moment – Toshia could not deny that Daphne was a strikingly beautiful woman. She also knew that she would give anything right now to be untied so she could get her hands on that woman, to kick her, scratch at her, beat her – to get her fingers into that woman's pussy, to kiss and bite that cold smile off her face, to make her cry out as she came on Toshia's mouth. Toshia ground her teeth together and sat still. As if she could read Toshia's mind, Daphne made a gesture, and Nina, who had been waiting patiently naked behind the chair, came around and knelt between Daphne's legs. Daphne ran her fingers through Nina's hair almost affectionately, as the girl leaned forward. Toshia could only watch the muscles of Nina's thin back as she brought her mouth to Daphne's pussy. Toshia remembered the feeling of Nina's tongue and lips on her own pussy and clit, and watched as Daphne relaxed in her chair, eyes half closed, but still watching Toshia. One hand still caressed Nina's hair, and the other now cupped her own breast. As Daphne's head rolled back a little and the muscles of her arm showed that she was pinching her own nipple hard, Toshia felt a moan that was almost a whimper building up in her own breast. She had never in her life been so enflamed with sexual desire. She knew that a big factor in her frustration was that release was positively denied her. If she thought she would be allowed to come sometime soon, she would bear this restraint more or less cheerfully, almost enjoying the furiously burning excitement in her body. But the fact that there was no satisfaction coming for her was making Toshia wild with frustration. Still, she struggled to maintain an outward appearance of calm, even when it became apparent that the warrior women, who denied themselves all day and kept themselves in peak physical condition, were going to keep this orgy going for hours. To be continued. By BradentonLarry for Literotica

Strange Vegetation: Don & the girls are taken by surprise. By BradentonLarry - Listen to the Podcast at Steamy Stories. Chapter 4 Don slowly woke up from his very deep sleep. He felt a warm, soft feminine body pressed against his own. He didn't have to compare these sensations with those from the first time he'd awoken in the Manor to know that Toshia was in his arms. Somehow he just knew it was her. He smiled to himself, and only then started to remember the night before, with the rite, Toshia's sexual offering to the guardian of the portal, and his own deliriously erotic and ultimately painful encounter with the crone. While he reviewed these events, Don became aware, without looking around or even opening his eyes, that he was on the pillows in the witches' tent, and that quite a few other bodies were slumbering around him. Toshia shifted her weight a little in his arms, and he kissed the top of her head. She squeezed his arm, and pushed back against him a bit. Smiling, he hugged her, and kissed her tousled hair again. They lay spooned together like this for several moments, before she wriggled around in his arms to face him. They shared a sleepy smile, and then she buried her face in his chest. Don gently ran his hand over her hair, knowing that he was now wide awake, but not wanting to disturb her if she needed more sleep. After several minutes, though, Toshia looked up at him and asked, "What did you find out last night?" "Not an awful lot," Don answered quietly. "She said we're looking for 'the Sage of the Tower.' We're supposed to go down into the valley and follow the river there to its source, where we'll find the Tower." "Hmm," Toshia murmured thoughtfully with a frown and her eyes still closed. "Are you alright?" Don asked. "Hm?" She looked at him and saw the concern in his eyes, and said, "Yes, I'm alright. I feel like I got fucked enough for a year, but I'm definitely alright. I didn't know I could have that many orgasms." "Did the guardian come?" Toshia paused for a moment, then said, "That was amazing! Very strange, but amazing. It felt like he was coming all through my body. It kind of hurt, but maybe that's just because it was so intense. I think that's when I finally passed out. Then I woke up here with you. Why did you ask about that?" "Something the crone said," Don shrugged. "And how was that?" Don told her all about the encounter with the strange woman. "So, a weird night all around, eh?" she smiled. "Well, I don't know if you noticed, but everyone was else was busy having an orgy while we were distracted." "I thought something like that was going on, but yeah, I was distracted." "I have to admit, it was extremely erotic watching you on that altar." "Oh really?" she smirked mischievously at him. "Maybe next time a dark demon needs sexing up I'll watch you." Don chuckled and said, "Fair enough." "You know, now that I'm thinking about it, it seems pretty rude that they had an orgy without us." "I thought you said you got fucked enough to last a year," Don said wryly. "Well, I was probably exaggerating a little, but it's the principle of the thing, you know? How about you? It sounds like the crone pretty much drained you." "Yeah," he admitted, "but here -- well, obviously, I'm not exactly out of commission." "Yes, I had noticed that," Toshia smiled, giving his erection a squeeze and a pull. For the past several minutes she had been idly toying with him while they talked. Don leaned in and kissed her. Soon, they were slowly making love amongst the sleeping witches and the three girls from the Manor. Though they were quiet, and not at all energetic, several drowsy people noticed what they were up to, and before long wakeful friskiness was spreading through the big tent and a lazy orgy had broken out. Only hours later, after the sex had finally run its course, again, did the company get around to washing up and eating. Then, after Cassandra had given them each a large flask of water and a pouch of fruit, both of which could be slung over their shoulders, the five travelers from the Manor finally left the clearing at the top of the hill. Following the path into the valley that Cassandra pointed out, they began to work their way downhill. Eventually, they came to the foot of the hill, and Amy was the one who said, "Well, there's no river here." "Well, maybe this is one big valley," Don offered. "I don't understand," Shelonda admitted. "Maybe all these hills all gradually descend to a river, and then on the other side they climb back up." "So, this could take a while, eh?" Amy frowned. "All the more reason to keep going," Toshia smiled and led the way up the next hill. As they went, they tried to keep moving in the same general direction. Don insisted that he usually had a very good sense of direction, but pointed out that when all else failed they just needed to keep going for the lowest point, and that ought to work. It had been about noon when they had left the witches, and, perhaps sated by all the fun of the morning and the night before, it was late in the afternoon before anyone mentioned sex. And then the subject came up in a fairly indirect manner, considering how comfortable they were all with each other. They had come into a stand of trees on a gentle slope. The trees were wide spaced, so that there was a nice clearing underneath the green canopy of leaves. The trees were hung with thick green vines of some sort that ran down and through the thick mat of soft leaves that covered the forest floor. The woods seemed particularly hushed and still here, Don thought. Then Nicole giggled, "That looks like a dildo." "What?" Amy asked with interest, and then, after Nicole pointed, she said, "Hey, you're right. And there's another one." Shelonda had stopped and was looking with the other girls at a kind of outgrowth on the sides of one of the vines. Taking a closer look, Don had to admit that they were right; the vines did seem to have what looked like natural dildos of different sizes and slightly different shapes growing out of them at intervals. "That's pretty weird," Toshia admitted. She had been in the lead, but had come back to see what all the fuss was about. "Still, I'd prefer the real thing," Amy grinned. Pulling her tank top up over her head, exposing her full breasts, she sauntered over to Don and said, "What do you say, Professor? Can you help a girl out?" Don chuckled but looked to Toshia. He knew they were trying to make time toward the river, and didn't want to slow things down if the others weren't ready for a break. However, Toshia was merely watching with a smile, as Amy dropped to her knees in front of Don and reached up under his kilt for his organ, which was already thick in anticipation. "Sex break!" Nicole shouted, laughing, as she tore off her own top and then grabbed for Shelonda. Don watched as the two dark-skinned girls fell into the leaves while they stripped each other's clothes off. In front of him, Amy had pushed his kilt up and was already working her warm, wet mouth up and down on his shaft, which was responding by quickly hardening for her. Don dropped his staff, water flask and pouch on the ground and pulled his t-shirt off, and then undid his kilt, letting both items fall on the leaves. Now naked, he concentrated on the wonderful sensations of Amy's tongue and lips on his cock. He held her head in his hands as he fucked slowly in and out of her mouth. Looking up momentarily, Don saw that Nicole and Shelonda had already gotten themselves into a 69, and that Toshia was standing over them watching, with her left hand up under her skirt and her right clutching at right breast. He looked back down, then, to watch Amy's pretty face as she sucked enthusiastically on him. She looked up at him with unmistakable pleasure glittering in her eyes. Out of the corner of his eye, Don noticed that Toshia was undressing and had knelt down next to the other two girls, though she was now watching Don and Amy. Remembering some of the other things Toshia had enjoyed watching, he bent down and said to Amy, "Get on your hands and knees for me." "Fun!" Amy said with a grin as she let go of his cock and turned around in the leaves. She bent over and presented her behind. Kneeling, Don grinned over at Toshia, and pushed Amy's skirt out of the way. Without any preliminaries, he took the fat head of his cock, wet with Amy's saliva, and pushed it into her very hot and willing pussy. Taking Amy's waist in his hands, he immediately set to fucking in and out of her vigorously. Amy grunted happily and shoved back against his thrusts. Toshia watched for a few moments with a smile on her face and her hand busy between her legs, but then finally bent down to run her hand over Nicole's back. Soon, she was laying with the other two girls in a happy confusion of legs and arms, pussies and tits, laughing, wet mouths and playful fingers. With a happy grin on his face, Don concentrated on giving Amy a proper fucking. He admired the view of her upturned backside and his thick cock-shaft sliding in and out of her, as well as her strong back and her strawberry blonde hair all messed up. He felt her fingers reaching back to play with herself as he fucked her, and it wasn't long before she was gasping out in a long, loud orgasm. Don thought he must still be depleted after his night with the crone, and from the single orgasm he'd had earlier with Toshia, because he could tell he was nowhere near ready to come. He leaned over Amy's back, kissed her shoulder, and said, "Why don't we go over and join the others?" "Good idea, Professor," she breathed. The other three welcomed them cheerfully, and it wasn't long before Don was looking down into Nicole's face as he slowly but firmly screwed her, while Toshia was in the middle of a little daisy chain -- hungrily going down on Amy, while Shelonda pleasured Toshia with her own lips and tongue. Aside from the rustling of leaves that they were all causing, they were all making enthusiastic sounds of pleasure and carnal joy. As a result, nobody noticed the additional rustling as a number of things moved slowly through the leaves toward and around them. Don was holding Nicole's wrists up over her head (which he had learned really turned her on) and felt some of the vines under the leaves brushing against his knuckles. He was also dimly aware that something had gotten wrapped around his ankles, but he paid it no mind. Don was too intent on fucking Nicole's sweet, tight pussy to worry about getting tangled in the undergrowth. Only when he felt something gripping his ankles tightly and pulling did he look around and say, "What the fuck?" As if on signal, he was hauled back, out of Nicole's delicious embrace, and up into the air, where he dangled, swinging back and forth. At the same time, there were shrieks from the girls. Don twisted around and craned his neck. It seemed that they had all been ensnared by vines and hauled up into the air. Off to his right, Don could see Shelonda who was also hanging upside down. By struggling, he could see that Amy was hanging from her wrists, as was Nicole. Toshia had somehow been caught by both wrists and one ankle. "Is everyone OK?" Don asked. A chorus of alarmed voices assured him that they were. He couldn't see what the others were doing, but he and Shelonda both tried to bend themselves up to get at the vines wrapped around their ankles. This was easier for the younger, lighter and more flexible Shelonda; Don made an abortive effort at loosening the vines before falling back down. He watched as Shelonda struggled to no avail. As she worked, new vines came down from the branches overhead and wrapped around her wrists. In another moment, she was hoisted upward, so that her head was again above her feet, though she was now spread-eagled, face down, high over the ground. At a loss for any other options, Don bent his knees in turn, so that he began to swing a bit from side to side. Once he started moving, he bent to the side to add momentum. The branches overhead creaked as Don and the vines that bound him moved through the leaves. He was dimly aware that other vines were descending toward himself and his friends, but he concentrated on increasing his arc of motion. Unfortunately, a thick strong vine caught him around the waist and brought him to an abrupt halt. Then, he was pulled upward, so that he was in a more or less upright position. The blood ran out of his head and he felt suddenly dizzy, but as soon as he could Don began to struggle against the vines that held him. He couldn't budge the vine that was wrapped around his midsection, though. Looking around at his companions, Don saw that more vines were moving along their naked limbs. He noted that the vegetative dildos they had noticed earlier seemed to be leading the way. In alarmed fascination, he watched as a thick green phallus pushed itself between Toshia's legs and into her vagina. Though she struggled against the invasion, the bizarre penis was soon up inside her, and then it began to move in and out of her slowly. At the same time, it was apparently expanding and contracting, pulsing visibly as it fucked her. Don saw that similar dildo-tipped vines were now violating Amy and Nicole. Looking to his side, Don could see that Shelonda not only had a vine penetrating her pussy, but that a thinner stalk seemed to have worked its way into her butt. It wasn't long before all the women had stopped struggling against their bounds but were moaning and whimpering in pleasure at what the vines were doing to them. Only Don was so far unmolested by the strange plants, but he couldn't do anything against the strong fibrous tendril wrapped around him. He watched and listened in a weird mixture of horror and excitement as the women began to come under the ministrations of the vines. Helpless to do anything else, Don saw Toshia twisting and trembling as the vine inside her pulsed and moved inside her until she was crying out in orgasmic delirium. Nicole came hard too, followed by Amy. When Shelonda finally climaxed she let out a scream that echoed in the forest, and Don could see that tears ran down her cheeks. The vines did not stop, though, but continued to fuck the women steadily. Before long, Don was witness to another round of loud orgasms. After that, the next set came quicker, and Shelonda wasn't the only one crying. After what seemed to be six or more orgasms, without the vines giving any sign of stopping, all the women were raggedly gasping for mercy. Don pounded on the thick vine that held him in impotent fury. Then, Toshia cried out incoherently. Don could see that the dildo-protuberance inside her was now at its thickest - about four times as thick as it had been when it had entered her. There seemed to be some sort of spasm in the plant's fibers, and then Toshia shouted out. Don watched as a thick, syrupy substance leaked out of Toshia and down her legs. There seemed to be a great deal of the viscous substance, and it kept spilling out of Toshia until it was spilling down onto the leaves below. The other women were now experiencing the same thing, as one by one the viney pricks came up inside them copiously. Gallons of the sappy jizz were shot into his companions and spilled on the forest floor. Don watched as the odd green cocks slowly withdrew from his companions. Each of the women hung from their restraining vines limply, wrung out from their exertions. Slowly, almost gently, the entire party was lowered to the ground, which was now sticky with vine-cum. As soon as he was released, Don sprang over to Toshia. "Are you OK?" he asked. "No," she breathed. "I'm definitely not OK. Let's get the hell out of here!" All of the women had trouble walking, but only Nicole needed to be carried. With the tiny young woman in his arms, Don led the others downhill away from the clearing under the trees. They didn't stop until they found a stream, where the women proceeded to wash each other diligently. Even the usually adventurous and cheerful Amy said that she had not had a good time. Sitting on a rock by the side of the stream, Toshia said, "Being forced to come like that, so many times..." "Not fun," Amy scowled. "And that felt like a fire hose inside me," Nicole said, "when it came." Don was acutely aware of the fact that he had neither suffered nor helped, so he kept his mouth shut. He wanted to talk about how weird it was that such a plant would even exist, but could tell that no one else was in any mood to discuss botany at the moment. "We'll have to be careful where we take our breaks from now on," Shelonda observed. "You can say that again," Toshia agreed, glaring at the trees around them. Chapter 5 Midnight Interlude Toshia sagged against the X-shaped cross, sleeping fitfully and uncomfortably. She was apparently forgotten by her captors, who had obviously feasted and fucked themselves to unconsciousness. Worn out by her struggles, and having given up on the possibility of freeing herself, Toshia had resigned herself to trying to get as much rest as she could in her current situation. Still, all she was able to get were little cat-naps, frustratingly brief. She would be in the middle of a pleasant dream – and any dream that didn't have her tied up in this old ruin of a castle was a pleasant dream – when she would wake up, painfully reminded of the discomfort in her limbs and particularly her shoulders. In one of these waking moments, she thought there was someone there with her in the dark. A motion or a soft footfall betrayed someone nearby. "Hello?" Toshia tried. Her voice came out as a dry croak. She tried to clear her throat, but that only made her cough. Quiet little slaps, the sound of bare feet on the stone floor, hurried away in the dark. Cursing silently to herself, Toshia scowled at the shadows around her. She was sure she could hear someone, somewhere in the castle, moaning in sexual pleasure. Toshia was acutely aware of how terribly horny she was, in spite of her predicament. Since coming to Eros, but before being captured by the warrior women, Toshia hadn't gone more than a few hours without sex. The XYZ made sure she and everyone else was perpetually in the mood. Now, though, denied release, Toshia's libido was on a slow boil. She wondered if... The bare feet, or another pair, were coming back! Toshia could make out a small figure moving from shadow to shadow approaching her. In the pale moonlight that came through the few windows in the hall, she could see that a naked petite, brunette girl was carrying a bucket over to the cross. "Shhh," the girl hissed when she stopped in front of Toshia. She put the bucket down, and then raised a ladle up, tipping delicious cool water into Toshia's mouth. Toshia drank it down eagerly, and then all of the second ladle-full. She whispered, "Thank you!" "I brought some food, too," the girl said. Bending over to undo a small bundle she had brought and laid on the ground, she then brought an apple up and held it so Toshia could take a bite of it. While Toshia chewed, she said, "They say you were with the goats." "Goats? You mean the satyrs?" "I guess so," the girl said, giving Toshia another bite of apple. "The ones with horns, goat legs and big dicks." Toshia chuckled a little, swallowed and said, "Yeah, those are the ones." "They say all they think about is fucking women," the girl said as she continued to feed Toshia. "Yeah," Toshia said around the mouthful of apple, "that's about it." "Can you tell me about them?" "I don't suppose you could untie me first?" Toshia suggested. "Oh, no, I couldn't!" the girl gasped. "The sisters would beat me terribly!" "The 'sisters'?" "You know the women who tied you up," the girl explained. "They call themselves the Sisterhood." Calling the warrior women who ran this castle sisters made them sound like Catholic nuns, and that thought made Toshia chuckle. "I'm only supposed to clean you up, but I brought food and water," she reminded Toshia. "Fine," Toshia nodded. "Keep feeding me that apple and I'll tell you what you want to know." Over the course of that hand-fed supper of what became two apples, Toshia told the girl about her first encounter with the satyrs, and how they chased her, caught her and had their way with her. As the girl pressed her for details, Toshia obliged, and admitted that she had made the most of what was at best a bad situation and at worst rape. Toshia had to admit to herself that, as rough as her treatment by the satyrs was, it was much better than the incident with the trees had been, and that she had found herself having fun, up to a point. The girl, though, wasn't interested in hearing about Toshia's emotional reactions or any ethical considerations. Instead she wanted details about how the satyrs had fucked her, particularly about the times when Toshia had serviced more than one of them at a time. "The first night, there was a lot of that," Toshia admitted. On being pressed, she said, "Yes, in my pussy, my ass and my mouth." Then, "Well, I didn't do much of it before, but I was getting used to it." And, "Usually on my hands and knees, or sitting on one of them." "It sounds like alot of fun!" the girl enthused. She had finished feeding Toshia, had given her another ladleful of water, and was now getting the cloth she had carried the apples in wet in the bucket. "Oh, it wasn't that bad, I guess," Toshia said, as the girl stood on tip-toes to wipe down her bound right arm. The rough, wet cloth felt very good on Toshia's skin. After pausing a moment, Toshia went on, saying, "They never wanted to hurt me really, just fuck me, whether or not I wanted to. I made it better on myself by wanting to, at least once they caught me and for the first few hours." The girl rinsed the cloth and began to wash Toshia's left arm. "I would love to be fucked for hours!" "Well, after that it started to get old," Toshia admitted. She was enjoying the caress of the cloth, and was more than a little turned on by the horny little brunette. "They let me sleep finally. They were kind of sweet about it, for them anyway. The next morning, though, after breakfast, it was more fucking. They just kept at it all day long, with only short breaks." "All at the same time?" the girl asked as she moved the cloth over Toshia's forehead and cheeks. She stood very close as she wiped down Toshia's neck. "Um, not so much," Toshia said. "By then it was mostly one after the other. It was exhausting, and started to get monotonous." "Monotonous?" The girl was lingering over Toshia's breasts. "Uh, boring," Toshia shuddered as the rough cloth moved over her erect and straining nipples. "We don't get to fuck cocks," the girl said as she moved her washcloth down over Toshia's abdomen. She was breathing on Toshia's skin. "The men are just for the sisters. We serving girls have each other and the sisters when they want us. I can't imagine being bored with fucking." As the girl rinsed and rung out the cloth, Toshia said, "Well, let me put it this way, the satyrs weren't exactly good lovers. They were good fucks, sure – amazing stamina and energy! But they weren't ever trying to make sure I was having a good time. Sex is so much better when you're with someone who is interested in your pleasure as much as his or her own." The girl was on her knees now, moving the washcloth over Toshia's legs. She said, "I guess I understand that." "Besides, cocks can be a lot of fun, but after a while, I like to have a woman's touch, if you know what I mean." "Like this?" the girl asked as she ran her fingertips up along the inside of Toshia's thigh and then very lightly over her pussy lips. Toshia shivered, and said, "God yes!" "Shhh!" the girl hissed. "I'm only supposed to clean you up. If we wake someone up, we'll both be in trouble." Then she leaned in and kissed Toshia's exposed pussy. "Tell me what happened then." "Oh, uh, well, they kept me busy, fucking me that day. I was in no shape to try to escape, and I never got a chance anyway. Yes, that feels so good! Don't stop!" The girl stopped licking Toshia's pussy and clit, looked up at her with a face shiny with Toshia's nectar, and said, with a playful grin, "Keep telling me the story then." "Yes, OK." Knowing what the girl wanted to hear, Toshia said, "We all fell asleep for a while, and then, I woke up when I felt one of them fingering me... Yes, like that, only not so nicely." Toshia wished she could hold the girl's head in place, keep her mouth on her, but all she could do to that end was to keep telling her story. "Even though we'd been fucking all day, my pussy was wet, and I wanted to fuck some more. I got up on my knees and he pushed his cock in me and started to fuck me. We weren't trying to be quiet so we were grunting there, and that woke up the other two. They started to play with my tits, which felt very good. Then the one who was fucking me, pulled me up and back, so I was lying back against his chest. God, that feels so good, don't stop! Uh, then one of the others got in front of me... He took his cock and pushed it into my pussy... right in my pussy with the other cock... It felt amazing! They fucked me like that – me between the two hairy goat-men, two cocks inside my pussy... I came so hard... Oh, god! Oh god! Yes, yes!" Toshia clenched her teeth to keep from shouting out. She pulled against her restraints and the cross creaked as she tensed every muscle in her body. Then the orgasm exploded through her body. She twisted and writhed against the wooden frame, as the little girl's tongue and lips pulled her on and on into a flood of fiery release. The girl kept at it, and Toshia came again and again, until she collapsed against the cross, spent. After a few moments, Toshia felt the washcloth wiping up the insides of her thighs, cleaning up her own juices. When she was done, the girl stood up in front of Toshia and asked, "What happened then?" Toshia sighed, "The rest of the night was more of the same, fucking and more fucking. We finally all fell asleep. When I woke up, they were gone. I have no idea what happened, but they were gone. The next thing I knew, before I could even get up off the ground, I was surrounded by the sisters and men who brought me here." "Why don't you do what they ask?" the girl asked. "Well, partly because they didn't ask," Toshia smiled. "You said the satyrs didn't ask." "Yes, but they weren't mean." "I think I understand," the girl nodded. "I'm Toshia, by the way." "I'm Nina." "Thank you, Nina. For everything." "You're welcome," Nina smiled. "I hope they untie you soon." "Me too!" Nina then took her bucket, washcloth, ladle and two apple cores, and disappeared into the shadows. Toshia tried to get some more sleep. Atop the Cliffs Chapter 6 The whole group was quiet and not at all cheerful when they resumed their hike toward what they hoped was the river at the bottom of the valley. The women were all pained from their experience with the sex-vines, and very far from thinking the forest through which they were moving was a nice place for a stroll and the occasional frolic. Don had not been violated in the same manner, but he was acutely aware of their physical and emotional discomfort. Moreover, though he had truly been unable to help in any way, his impotence during the attack (he could think of no better word for it) left him in a dark mood.  When he had convinced Toshia that he was up to leaving the Manor in search of a way home, he had only considered the danger to himself, and then, when the subject came up, to Shelonda and Amy, who were only coming along out of friendly helpfulness and a lust for kicks, respectively. He had not taken seriously the extent to which this course of action might put Toshia herself in danger. Of course, Toshia was her own person, and she was determined to find a way home. Nothing Don could do or say would deter her from that course of action. Neither would he try to do so. He had no right to forbid her anything of the sort. That wasn't what was bothering him. What worried him was the very thought that something bad might happen to her here, and that he wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Sure, everyday life was full of random risks and dangers, but somehow you forgot about the possibility that someone you loved might get hit by a drunk driver while walking home from the store. Here, in this strange little adventure, it was now impossible for Don to put the dangers out of his mind. He didn't know if he could handle it if something actually terrible happened to Toshia. He had loved her for years, and even more so now. These thoughts and the mood of the women, kept Don in a subdued, remarkably un-horny mood. When they bedded down for the night – after making sure the area was free of dildo-shaped vegetation of any kind – they set a watch, and nobody started any mischief. It was the first night since arriving in the Manor that Don went to sleep without having sex just beforehand. It helped a bit that he took the first watch, and didn't have to try to fall asleep with still wakeful beautiful women lying next to him. Only after noon on the next day did a spirit of friskiness return. Naturally enough, it was Amy who got things going, spanking Shelonda hard on the ass and then fleeing just long enough to make the other girl exert herself. By the time the others caught up to them, they were making out on the grassy hillside. Nicole joined in the fun, while Don and Toshia looked on, both amused and aroused. That night, things were back to normal, if a bit less boisterous than usual. Don fell asleep with Toshia's head on his chest, while Shelonda took the first watch. The next day, they found themselves descending a steady, rocky slope to a sudden drop. They came to a halt at the top of a cliff face at least 20 meters high, at the bottom of which was a fast flowing, broad river. "Think that's the river we're looking for?" Nicole asked. "Hard to say," Don shrugged. "Well, we can't climb down that," Toshia said. Amy suggested, "We could jump." "That's crazy," Toshia responded a bit sharply. "We'd just hit the water," Amy pointed out. "Yeah, but you could hurt yourself hitting the water, and we don't have any idea how deep the river is," Toshia explained with a genuine smile, apparently regretting her crankiness of a moment ago. "You could break every bone in your pretty body." "Why would we want to get down there anyway?" Shelonda asked. "Exactly," Don nodded. "We need to either go that way, up-river, to find the source, or the other way, to see if this river joins up with another, bigger river. Either way, we don't need to risk breaking our necks climbing or jumping." "Well, which way should we go, then?" Nicole asked. "I think we should go downriver a ways and see if we come to another river, or someone who can give us some more information," Don said. Nobody had any objection to this plan. Neither did they object when he said, "But first let's take a break." In another few minutes they were all naked and Amy was sitting on a big moss covered rock, while Toshia knelt between her legs, licking and sucking at Amy's clit and pussy. Shelonda and Nicole clambered up on the rock on either side of Amy and were taking turns kissing her, each other or Amy's tits. Don stood back for a moment, hard cock in hand, admiring the scene. In front of him, was Toshia's upturned butt and ready pussy, ready for him if he wanted either or both of them. Above that were Toshia's thin, muscular back, Amy's strong legs and abs, and then a confusion of wonderful breasts and sexy, beautiful faces. Don could join in anywhere and be happily welcome. All around them were rocky outcroppings, trees and green underbrush – a beautiful natural garden of sorts – almost Eden-like. Off to the side, only a dozen meters away was the cliff edge. In the other direction, back the way they had come, the hillside was broken at intervals into sloping shelves. On an outcropping upstream and away from the river, so doubly uphill, but with a clear view of the spot where the women were already having so much fun, were two figures wearing black robes with hoods covering their heads. Don saw them first out of the corner of his eye, and then confirmed their presence without looking at them directly. Thinking quickly, Don reached down to caress Toshia's ass. He ran his hand down between her cheeks and trailed his fingers over her dewy outer lips. He bent down over her back as he pushed two fingers gently up inside Toshia's very wet pussy. He whispered to her, "Don't stop what you're doing. There are a couple of Watchers watching us. I'm going to take Shelonda and try to sneak up on them. Keep up the show." "Uh-hum!" Toshia managed and nodded a little. Don stood up and moved around to Shelonda, who was on the side of the rock furthest from the Watchers. Trying not to be conspicuous, he leaned over and kissed one of the girl's beautiful breasts, catching her nipple in his mouth. While he suckled at her luscious tit, Don parted her legs and pulled her a bit toward him. Happy to cooperate, Shelonda scooted forward a bit, allowing Don access to her pussy. Though he could easily fuck her this way, he wanted to move her further from the group, so that's what he did, coaxing her away from Amy and Nicole. Soon, Don and Shelonda were fucking against the side of the rock, away from the Watchers. Shelonda had her arms around Don's neck and her beautiful, full breasts against his chest as he screwed her vigorously. While he did this, he also whispered to her what he had in mind. When the two of them dropped to the ground next to the rock, they thought it must seem to the Watchers that they were merely continuing their fucking, but unfortunately out of sight. Don was pleasantly surprised that Shelonda immediately dropped out of horny sex kitten mode and stealthily followed his lead. Don had left his staff, along with his other things, on the wrong side of the rock, near where Toshia was still going down on Amy, but Shelonda was able to pick hers up off the ground near where they had dropped out of sight. Don lead the way, first toward the river, and then up hill, staying screened behind shrubbery as they moved quickly and quietly, hunched over. When Don was sure they were well out of the view of Watchers, Don risked a dash across an open area and a quick clamber up a steep rise to put them behind and above the position where he had seen the Watchers. He slowed down and crept forward, hoping to catch the black-robed voyeurs unawares. They could hear the sound of Amy coming loudly, as well as some sound from Nicole. Don suspected Toshia had found a way to encourage them to ham it up a bit. Unfortunately, though, when he peered around the trunk of tree to the place where the Watchers had been, they were nowhere to be seen. "Damn!" Don hissed. He looked around carefully through the trees and undergrowth, but couldn't see any sign of the black robes. "Do you think they heard or saw us?" Shelonda asked as they stood up and walked out to the little clearing where the Watchers had been standing. "They must have," Don shrugged frowning. "I thought we did a good job, though." "I smell shampoo," Shelonda said. "Huh, yeah, so do I," Don nodded, "and that looks like a shoe print there in the dirt." Just then, though, a loud shout made Don and Shelonda look toward the rock where they'd left their friends. Apparently, while Don and Shelonda had been sneaking up on the Watchers, a bunch of men had been sneaking up on Toshia, Nicole and Amy. One of the men had come up behind Toshia, caught her from around the waist and pulled her up and away from between Amy's legs. Toshia, who was the one who had given the initial shout, was kicking and struggling in the grasp of the man who held her, while a second man tried to close in on her from the front. Yet another man had already managed to get between Amy's legs and was shoving them roughly apart. Another man was rudely pulling Nicole from off the rock, where she had been kneeling over Amy's face. Two other men were on the rock, either helping with Nicole, or trying to hold Amy down – it wasn't clear from where Don and Shelonda were. All of these observations were made in the second it took for Don to spring into action, jumping down from the rocky shelf, and running down toward the women and the men. Shelonda followed close on his heels. While he pelted down the slope, Don noticed that all of the men had long, unkempt hair and seemed to be quite dirty in general. They seem to have brought crude clubs with them, but most of them had dropped them to the ground when they had jumped on the women. The one trying to get close to Toshia seemed to be wielding some kind of a knife, which made him a priority. Unless there were more men in hiding, there were only six of them. This meant that, while they outnumbered the women they had seen by the rock two-to-one, they had brought too few guys to actually pull off this gang rape or abduction. Shelonda, who was on that side of Don anyway, made for the guys on and next to the rock, leaving Don with Amy's would be rapist and the two after Toshia. Intent on enjoying the fruit of their surprise attack, the men didn't notice as Shelonda and Don closed in on them. The guy between Amy's legs glanced to the side just in time to see the flat of Don's hand coming in fast and hard. Don had never hit someone with full, multiple-board-breaking force before, but he wasn't surprised to see the man's head snapping around with savage force. As the man slumped to the side, Don realized that he might have killed him, but was frankly past caring. In the moment that he took to scoop up the staff he had left on the grass earlier, Don saw that Shelonda was effectively delivering a beating to the men who had been closest to her on the rock. Nicole was now able to more effectively fight back against the one guy who continued to wrestle with her. Now that Amy was free, she would be able to join in the fight. With one-to-one odds and Shelonda and her staff involved in the fight by and on the rock, Don was confident he could focus his attention on Toshia and her two attackers. In her struggle to free herself and to keep the second man from getting close to her, Toshia had forced the group of three back until they were perilously close to the cliff top. She had her right hand up over her shoulder with a tight grip on a handful of hair of the man behind her. With her left arm she was alternately elbowing that man in the ribs, and fending off his right arm – the one that wasn't locked around her waist. Any time the guy in front of her with the knife got too close, she would kick out violently with her bare feet. Don knew she was in grave danger of getting badly cut, if she didn't back herself off the cliff first. Don was directly behind the guy with the knife and prepared to bring him down with a single, decisive staff blow. Unfortunately, the man behind Toshia saw Don and yelled, "Behind you, Burt!" Burt twisted around and managed to avoid the slicing blow that would have split his head open. The staff in Don's hands spun around and came down again at whip-crack speed, and again Burt was able to just barely get out of the way. This time, though, Don brought the end of the staff sharply to the side, hitting Burt hard in the cheek and mouth. Don was satisfied to note blood running down Burt's cheek and chin. Pressing the advantage, Don snapped the other end of the staff around to smack into Burt's gut, which caused Burt to exhale sharply and nearly double over. Don was close enough to get hold of Burt's knife arm, and was about to finish the guy off, when, at that very moment, he saw that Toshia had managed to twist herself free of her attacker's clasp. Unfortunately, doing so cost her balance at the lip of the cliff. Her arms flailed a bit, she managed to call, "Don!" and then she fell. Don would have followed her over without any hesitation, if Burt hadn't chosen that instant to bring his knee up into Don's groin. As Don gritted his teeth against the explosion of pain, he saw Burt's knife arcing down toward his chest. Everything seemed to be moving in a kind of slow motion; adrenaline and years of martial arts training served to ramp up Don's perception and reaction time. Ignoring the pain in his crotch, Don let go of his staff, caught hold of Burt's wrist and, calmly stepping out of the way, he let Burt's arm continue down and then pulled it around, slipping his own arm under Burt's bicep and behind his back. One good jerk upward, accompanied by a particularly nasty, wet pop, served to dislocate Burt's arm at the shoulder. Don was vaguely aware that Burt was crying out in pain, but he was already focused on the fact that Burt's friend, who had managed to avoid falling over the edge of the cliff, was charging at him. There was a flurry of motion as Don twisted to the side and Burt's friend crashed past him, only to fall to his knees. The hilt of Burt's knife was sticking out of the left side of the man's ribcage, blood welling up around it. Don ignored the critically wounded man, and took a second to check on the others. One of the men was lying sprawled against the big rock, probably unconscious, and the other two were running away as fast as they could. Nicole had turned to look in Don's direction and saw one collapsed man, another with a knife sticking out of his chest, and the third sobbing on the ground at Don's feet while clutching at his shoulder. "My god, Don!" she managed. As if he agreed with Nicole's surprise, Burt cried out, "We were only trying to have some fun!" "With a knife?" Don scowled, and then added, "I don't have time for this." He kicked out hard and fast with his heel, snapping Burt's head to the side with stark finality. Without looking down, or back at the girls, Don hurried over to the cliff edge and looked down, searching for any sign of Toshia. He heard the others come up and join him. They all agreed they couldn't see Toshia, either clinging to the cliff face anywhere or in the river. Don scowled, his mind strangely calm and clear. "Get your things and Toshia's, quickly. We have to find a way down there fast." In another minute, the four of them were hurrying along the cliff top, moving downriver, looking for a way down. Chapter 7 The Easy Way; Toshia is thrown to the men. It was late in the morning when a pair of serving girls and four sisters came into the hall of castle where Toshia hung from the big X. "Get her down from there," one of the sisters commanded. The two girls hurried to comply. Toshia was pretty sure the small brunette was Nina, but the little girl avoided making any eye contact with her. They undid her ankles first, and Toshia breathed a ragged sigh of relief as she supported her weight on the ground for the first time in almost 24 hours. Pushing up, she relieved some of the strain on her shoulders. While the two girls worked to untie Toshia's wrists, the warriors moved a bit closer and seemed tensed in case Toshia should make an escape attempt. She realized how ridiculous their concern was when her right wrist was released and her arm fell to her side, a numb, useless appendage. Toshia cried out as her shoulder complained against suddenly moving after so long in the same position. When the other wrist was freed, Toshia's whole body followed the downward motion of her arm, collapsing in a pile on the stone floor. "Get her some food and water," the same woman ordered, and then walked away, leaving the other three guards to watch over Toshia and the serving girls. One of the girls ran off, while the one who was almost certainly Nina caressed Toshia's forehead with a moist cloth. Toshia groaned a bit as she worked to move her arms. Already, her hands were alive with a million pinpricks as the circulation returned to its normal levels. Probably-Nina began to gently massage Toshia's shoulders and upper arms. Then the other girl, a somewhat plain blonde girl with pendulous breasts and wide hips, returned with a flagon of water and three apples. The flagon was tipped up so Toshia could down several mouthfuls, and then the first apple was held for her, much as Nina done during the night. Toshia felt the rejuvenating effects of the water and fruit almost immediately. She fed herself the second apple, and drank down the rest of the flagon's contents. Her body seemed to have suffered no real damage from being tied to that damn cross. Though she could use a good night's sleep on a horizontal surface, Toshia felt reinvigorated. Naturally, given the XYZ, this meant that her sex drive was again kicking into gear. However, her feistiness was, if anything, only encouraged by the treatment she'd received by the warrior women. When the blonde offered her the third apple, Toshia smiled at her and said, "No thanks. You have it. I appreciate the help, both of you." The blonde smiled and nodded her head, and Toshia was sure she felt the briefest kiss on her shoulder from almost certainly Nina. The girls gathered up the apple cores, the empty flagon and the wet cloth, and hurried away. As if on cue, a half dozen of the so-called sisters came into the hall. Leading the way was the haughty Daphne, today wearing a shear red robe that hung from her strong shoulders, and parted down the front to show her cleavage, bare abs and the flowing swatch of gold-yellow fabric that hung from a belt around her waist to cover her privates. Toshia thought she looked like an adolescent boy's fantasy, something ripped off the cover of a Conan paperback or something. Too bad she's such a bitch, Toshia thought. Behind and to Daphne's right was also the blonde Viking woman, Brigit. Like the other warriors, Brigit was wearing the patched-together armor Toshia had seen the day before. The party of women surrounded Toshia. One of them, a big brunette with brown hair cut short, said, "Well, she smells better today." Toshia thought she recognized this woman's voice as that of Wanda, who liked a good butt fucking, but not from a "goat". "Yes, but has her attitude improved?" Daphne wondered. She looked down at Toshia, who was still crouching on the stone floor, with a raised eyebrow and a cold-disinterested expression. "Well, pup, are you going to behave yourself and do as you're told?" Toshia looked around at the armed and armored women, momentarily wondering which one was most likely to hit her if she got out of line. Toshia had been expecting something like this sort of question, and had actually not decided on which response she'd actually give. Finally, she went with, "That depends; are you going to tell me to go on my merry way?" Toshia expected to be hit, but wasn't. Perhaps it was the fact that Daphne actually smiled that kept the others from punishing her. Still, that particular smile was not one Toshia liked seeing. Daphne's smile was the sort that went along with a villain saying, "I was hoping you'd say that." Daphne shook her head and said, "Have no doubt about it, pup, you're not going anywhere. Your pale ass belongs to us now. You'll do whatever we tell you to and you'll do it with a smile on your face and a song in your heart. If I tell you to lick out Wanda's ass, you'll get in there and bury your face between her cheeks and say 'Yum!'" "Why is everyone talking about my ass lately?" Wanda asked, confirming Toshia's guess about her identity. Daphne ignored Wanda, though, and continued addressing Toshia, saying, "The only question is whether you're going to play along like a good little pet, or make us go to all the trouble of breaking you. Playing along is the smart thing, and certainly easiest for all of us. Plus, I'm sure Wanda's ass could use the cleaning. Don't get me wrong, breaking you will be fun too – for us. And be quite confident that we will break you; we've got all the time in the world. Honestly, just between you and me, I hope you're going to keep resisting." Toshia didn't even pause to consider her options, but said, "You know, Daphne, I'd really rather lick Wanda's ass than keep listening to you talk." This time she was smacked, and hard, by someone on her right. Catching herself as she slumped to the left, Toshia heard Wanda saying, "Wait, does that mean she's going to behave?" By way of reply, Daphne ordered, "Give her to the men." Abruptly Toshia was hauled up to her feet, by sisters on either side of her with firm grasps on her upper arms. They compelled her off to the side of the hall, where they led her down a short corridor that in turn led to a small, open courtyard. There was a big section of the courtyard's floor that was missing, and a number of chairs were arranged around this big hole. Daphne led the way, circling around the hole and taking a seat on what looked like the most comfortable chair. Toshia was led to the edge of the hole. Looking down, she saw a big chamber, the center of which, directly underneath her, was taken up by what looked like a very large mattress, covered with a dark red sheet. Brigit came up next to the sister who held Toshia's right arm, and said, "Our men have an easy life, really. They do our manual labor, of course, but there isn't much of that. Now and then we use them as playthings, but not very often. For one thing, they're men, and for another, dangling the possibility of sex in front of them, without giving it to them, serves to keep them well-behaved. So, they're pretty much always in a state of frustration, and they never ever get to just have their way with a woman." Brigit paused and smiled at Toshia, with what seemed to be actual friendly amusement. "Have fun." Then Toshia was shoved forward out into space. Fortunately, the mattress was soft enough to absorb her fall without hurting her. Still, she was left sprawling ungracefully on the red fabric, while above her the women laughed and clapped. Toshia noticed first that the sheet beneath her was not unpleasantly rough, and then that the mattress was thick enough keep her from feeling the hard ground underneath. These were good things, if she correctly understood what was in store for her. Looking around, she saw that three sides of the room, which only extended a small distance from the edges of the mattress, had only bars for walls. The room was, in effect, a large cage, or cell. There was one gate, manned by two particularly brawny sisters. On the other side of the bars was a crowd of naked men, all trying to get a good look at Toshia. The fourth wall was solid, and covered by an ancient mirror, pockmarked and cracked. Toshia could see herself in the surface, though not exactly clearly. Looking up, Toshia saw that Daphne and all her friends were gathered around watching. Daphne raised her hand, which seemed to command a measure of silence from the crowd. When everyone was quiet, she called down into the cell, saying, "Let's start her off with five." This caused both a round of applause from above and some commotion below, on the other side of the bars, as the men jostled for position. Toshia thought that, as Daphne had indirectly suggested, there were two ways to go with this, the easy way and the hard way. The hard way included putting up a fight. Toshia couldn't see any up-side to that approach. In fact, she thought this was what Daphne expected from her, and it would amuse the bitch no end to see Toshia gang raped for the entertainment of the Sisterhood. On the other hand, the easy way would certainly thwart Daphne's intentions – though it might only piss her off all the more. In addition, it had now been days since Toshia had been with the satyrs, and she had had only one orgasm in that time. The five men were now coming into the room with her. They were all naked and in good shape. Two of them were particularly muscular, and two were particularly cute. Their cocks were all semi-hard already, energized by the XYZ in their systems and the prospect of sex with her. Toshia noticed that none of them were graced with the kind of monster pricks she'd had with the Player or Igor, though the biggest guy, a dark-skinned Adonis with a shaved head, had one that was about the size of the Lord's, if his current state was a good indicator. Yes, Toshia thought to herself, the easy way has much to be said for it. To be continued. By BradentonLarry for Literotica

New message on XYZ now: we graduating. Big dreams, bigger blessings! #GradSzn

Toshia finds herself in a predicament. By BradentonLarry – Listen to the Podcast at Steamy Stories. NOTE: The events of this series (as a whole) follow immediately after Lost in Eros Book 1: The Manor. It is strongly suggested to complete that book first. Chapter 1 Toshia strained against the cords that held her fast. Her arms and legs were stretched out against an X-shaped cross, tied securely at the wrists and ankles. The muscles in her thin, strong arms and her bare legs pulled and struggled as her lithe, naked torso twisted against the cross. She had been trying to pull herself loose for what must be an hour now, and was convinced there was no actual hope that she would free herself. Only fierce stubbornness drove her to struggle again and again. At first, her captors had been gathered around Toshia, laughing at her as she fought futilely against her restraints. They had pinched and fondled her naked body, not as if they were trying to arouse her, but out of amusement at her defiant helplessness. They had squeezed and twisted her nipples, not playfully but cruelly, until tears were rolling down her cheeks. Hands had crushed her breasts roughly and slapped her face and thighs until her skin was burning and bright pink. Rude, unloving fingers had been shoved into her pussy, without intending to excite her, only to violate her. It was infuriating to her that her body had responded to this intrusion with grasping, hungry wetness. Although her mind was rebelling against her situation, and the rest of her body was being so badly mistreated, her vagina – and the damned XYZ in her veins – was ready for sex. Toshia didn't give in, though, and wouldn't. That had been the problem. Toshia wouldn't play along, so they tied her up and put her on display in the middle of this broken down old castle. They had good fun with that, hauling the kicking and fighting naked young woman off and holding her down on the cross while they bound her and then raised the framework to fit into its base. Toshia particularly remembered one of her tormentors, a big redhead with freckles over her cheeks and nose, who laughed in Toshia's face and then licked her cheek with a broad, wet tongue. After a while though, they got tired of abusing her and wandered off to find other things to do. Now and then someone would pass her by. Sometimes they would prod, pinch or fondle her body, but more and more they would just walk by, laughing. At first she had been happy to realize she'd been taken by the warrior women. Given her previous experience in Eros, Toshia expected to find herself in a Sapphic harem, surrounded by playful, horny women. After what she'd gone through, particularly since being separated from Don and the girls, the thought of some girl-on-girl action was quite welcome indeed! As soon as she was dumped out into the courtyard of the castle and looked around, though, Toshia realized this wasn't going to be any nice little harem situation. The stones of the courtyard were rough and cold on her bare skin. The women who stood around her were anything but welcoming. They looked down at her with various expressions of contempt and amusement. Each of these warriors was clearly very strong, with well-defined muscles on her arms, legs and abdomen. Odd pieces of armor were combined with tattered garments to barely clothe their athletic bodies. Each one held a weapon of some kind, mostly spears. "She's a scrawny one," said one of the women with a sneer. "No tits to speak of," said another derisively. Toshia was crouching there in front of them, trying to cover her nudity for the first time since she and Don had awoken in the Manor. "I'll bet she didn't put up any fight," one of the women scowled with distaste. "What about it, little pup? Did you put up any fight or did you just let them fuck you until they were done with you?" Toshia had twisted to get a look at the woman who had asked her those questions. She saw a tall woman with long jet-black hair and icy blue eyes looking down at her. The woman's expression gave the impression that she smelled something particularly rank. Toshia tried to think of what to say, but was distracted when she felt the butt of a spear shoved under her behind, and a voice saying, "I'll bet they screwed her ass too." The blue-eyed woman kept watching Toshia, as the woman behind her shoved the spear harder, pushing Toshia up to a kneeling position. Another woman asked, "Well, what is it, girl, did the goats fuck your ass?" "She's blushing," laughed one of them. "I'll bet she liked getting fucked in the ass by the goats." The blue-eyed woman smiled wryly and said, "As if you don't like a good ass-fucking, Wanda." "Well, yeah, but not from a goat!" Wanda protested. They all laughed at this, but Toshia didn't feel any more comfortable. The woman with the black hair and blue eyes was still looking down at her contemptuously. "What are we going to do with the scrawny little bitch, then," one of the women asked. "Give her to the men?" "It doesn't look like she can fight, so what else is she good for? She's too skinny to be any fun." "I don't know," said the blue-eyed woman haughtily. She reached out and caught Toshia's chin in a strong grip. She turned Toshia's head to the right and left, looking at her face coldly. "She's kind of cute." Cute!? Toshia suddenly realized how incredibly pissed she was. Things hadn't been going exactly well for days but she'd put up with it, thinking that Don and the others would turn up and get her out of this mess. Toshia was nothing if not a good sport; she hadn't actually been hurt and she'd managed to have fun in the process, but somehow a line had been crossed. This bunch of obnoxious women was too much to put up with nicely. A simmering rage welled up in Toshia's breast. The cold woman in front of her seemed to see the fury in Toshia's eyes. She smiled cruelly and said, "What do you say, little pup, will you be a good little pet for me?" "Fuck you!" Toshia spat. The smack came from somewhere off to the right and batted Toshia's head to the left. A spear shaft came down hard across her bare back, stinging like fire and knocking her forward onto her hands and knees. "Show respect, you skinny bitch!" said an angry voice. Toshia glowered at the gray stone in front of her, thinking furiously,I'll be damned if I'm going to be anyone's fucking cute little pet! Then she saw a sandaled foot extended under her face. It moved upward and Toshia lifted her head to avoid making contact. "There, there," said the blue-eyed woman. "I'm sure she'll behave now that she understands that she'll be punished if she doesn't. Right, little pup?" Toshia glared up at the woman and said nothing. "She's a wild one," a blonde woman with braids on both sides of her head, and who looked more than a little like a valkyrie to Toshia, said cheerfully. "Better watch yourself, Daphne." The blue-eyed woman, Daphne, sneered coldly and said, "Don't be ridiculous, Brigit. She'll be a good little pet for me, won't you, pup? Show the girls you'll play nice and kiss my foot." Toshia was keenly aware of the fact that she was surrounded by a gang of big bullies with sticks and worse, but she was past caring. She pushed herself up so that she was kneeling on her haunches and said, "I'll tell you what, I'll kiss your foot right after you kiss my ass." The blonde, Brigit, thought this was very funny, and Toshia thought some of the others laughed a little too, but again she was smacked – this time so hard that she tasted blood. Daphne, who wasn't laughing at all, then said, "It looks like the pup needs to be house-broken, ladies. Let's see how she likes being tied to the cross." So, Toshia was woman-handled until and after she was tied up and put on display in the middle of what seemed to be an ancient, decrepit hall. Fortunately, the women had tired of tormenting her, but they made no move to release her. Toshia pulled again, straining all the muscles in her lithe body against the bonds restraining her left wrist, trying to pull her hand through. She felt the wood of the cross against her back and butt. It seemed as if she would pull her hand off the end of her arm, or at the very least dislocate her shoulder, but nothing gave. She sagged, breathless, against the big X, hanging from her restraints. Toshia resigned herself to waiting until they untied her. In the meantime, she thought back to her adventures since she and Don had come to Eros, both in the Manor and since that day, about a week ago, when they had left the Manor and headed out into the forest. She knew reliving some of those events would make her horny, in spite of her situation, but thoughts of her life before coming to Eros would only depress her further. In any case, there was little doubt that the XYZ would have her horny soon anyway. Chapter 2 The Rite: centaurs & witches & crones (oh my!) Right after leaving the Manor Don found himself in strange company. It wasn't the fact that he was accompanied by four sexy women (each of whom he had slept with, sometimes with the active assistance of the others), including the love of his life and best friend Toshia. Nor was it the fact that two of those women had no memory beyond when they had awakened here in this strange place. Rather it was the presence of the amiable centaur, Ralph, who made the situation so surreal. They had gathered around Ralph in the shade of the first trees on the edge of the lawn spread out in front of the Manor. "Well, we call this the forest," Ralph answered Toshia's question. "No," she insisted, "what do you call everything -- the place where the forest is?" "The world? Oh, you mean Eros," Ralph laughed. "People call the world Eros sometimes." "Naturally," Don shrugged, smiling across to Toshia. "OK," Toshia tried to resume her explanation, "Don, Nicole and I aren't from Eros. We come from a place called Earth, and we would like to get home." Ralph frowned and scratched under his long, dark beard. His equine tail swished a bit too. Then, he said, "I can't say that I've ever heard of this 'Earth' place, and I've traveled extensively throughout the world -- Eros. Oh, would you mind scratching right there, dear?" Amy, who had utterly failed to resist the urge to caress Ralph's strong flanks, obliged him by scratching at his brown hindquarter where her hand had been. "Well," Don tried, "if you wanted to find a way to Earth, is there someone you would ask for help?" "Hmm," Ralph said as his forehead creased with his thought. "I suppose the first place one could try is the Witches of the Glen. Perhaps they could summon the Crone. She is very wise. If anyone knows anything about this 'Earth' it's likely to be... That's very distracting, my dear." "It certainly is!" Shelonda said. She had knelt down next to Ralph and was caressing his prodigious sex organ, which was, naturally enough, responding to the attention. Don wondered if the native fauna responded to the XYZ in the same way the human transplants did. He apologized to Ralph, saying, "I'm sorry. My friends have never encountered one of your kind." "I appreciate that," Ralph said. "It's just that it's been a while since I've been with a mare." "There aren't many centaurs around?" Don asked. "No... not too many..." By now Amy and Nicole had joined Shelonda in caressing and stroking Ralph's large phallus. Toshia was watching them with an expression that seemed a violent mixture of curiosity, shock and titillation. Don almost laughed at her reddening face. He saw that Amy was now kneeling on the ground with both her hands on the column of horse flesh pointing at her face, pumping her hands back and forth on it. Meanwhile, Shelonda and Nicole were similarly stroking Ralph's cock. Don thought it was fortunate for everyone concerned that they hadn't come across an actual horse. "Oh my!" Ralph breathed. Then a deluge of white cum erupted from him, virtually covering Amy's face and front. Pearly droplets splattered everywhere. Shelonda was able to say "Wow!" in the moment before a second bucket full of cum shot out of Ralph and onto Amy's face, and then there was a third much smaller one, followed by a stream that drizzled out. Nicole reached out and caught some of this in her cupped palm, and brought it up to her mouth, only to pronounce it "Yummy!" The girls on the ground proceeded to giggle and laugh as they scooped centaur cum off Amy and slurped it down. Toshia watched this for a moment, until she saw Don watching her with amusement, and then said, "Oh, what the hell?" and got down to join in the fun. "I hope that wasn't too rude of them," Don said to Ralph. "Oh, no -- not at all!" Ralph laughed. "It was a bit kinky, you know. I've never been pleasured by such tiny females, but I'm certainly not complaining." "Well, good," Don smiled. "Now, I was wondering if you could help us find these Witches of the Glen that you mentioned." Once the women managed to finish playing with Ralph's cum and to clean Amy up a bit, the centaur led them through the forest at a pretty brisk pace. Don was happy that he was a good hiker. The women took turns getting rides on Ralph's back, and took the opportunity to bring themselves to loud orgasms along the way. At first Toshia seemed shocked by the fact that Amy and then Shelonda were so openly grinding themselves against Ralph's spine and then so obviously coming, but, after Nicole took her turn, Toshia climbed up and enjoyed the ride for all it was worth. Don watched her bowing her head against Ralph's shoulder blades as she gasped and sighed with her orgasm, and smiled to himself. It was good to see her enjoying herself so thoroughly. For his part, Ralph said he was happy to return the favor done him as much as possible. Amy, however, insisted that she was unconvinced that there wasn't some further way in which Ralph could be of service to the ladies. Don found himself a bit happy when they came upon the glade they were seeking before Amy could put any of her ideas to the test. He sensed that Ralph was a bit relieved too. They were on a cleared hilltop high over the rest of the forest, sloping dark green all around them. The sun was sinking toward the horizon. In the center of the glade were a large stone altar and a large arrangement of wood, ready to become a bonfire. Off to the side, against the tree line, was a large tent of crimson cloth. Ralph led them toward this tent. Before they got there, though, or even called out, a flap was tossed aside and a beautiful woman in a dark red robe stepped out and said, "Hello, and welcome." She had a thick mane of yellow and gold hair falling to her shoulders in an unruly tumult. She looked the party over with eyes of light blue-gray and a knowing smile. "My name is Cassandra, how may we help you?" "Hello Cassandra, I'm Don, and this is Toshia, Nicole, Shelonda, Amy and Ralph." "It's good to see you again, Ralph," Cassandra smiled. Her voice was musical, friendly and confident -- in short, extremely sexy. "Thank you for guiding our new friends here." "It was an honor, mistress," Ralph bowed. "More than that," she winked, "judging from the smell of things." "An honor and a pleasure," he smiled back at her. "I am glad," she nodded. Then, turning to Don, she asked, "How may we help you, Don?" "Toshia, Nicole and I seek a way to leave Eros and return to our home, Earth," Don explained. "Ralph suggested that you could help us find someone who could tell us how to do that." "The Crone," Ralph added. "Ah, yes," Cassandra nodded, taking all of this in with apparent simple acceptance. "I see. We could perform the summoning rite, though you will have to help. We will need a fresh offering for the guardian of the portal, and then there will be a price to be paid to the Crone as well." "What sort of offering and price?" Toshia asked. She had dismounted from Ralph's back and stood next to Don. "Oh nothing quite so dire as you might imagine," Cassandra smiled enigmatically. "Any of you young ladies will do, though I suggest you or Nicole would be most fitting." "Fine," Toshia said firmly, "as long as it's nothing life-threatening, I'll do it." "Wonderful," Cassandra nodded. "And you, Don, will have to pay the Crone's price. Surely you will be as brave as your companion." "Of course," Don nodded, very much conscious of the fact that he was nowhere near as sure of himself as Toshia seemed to be. Cassandra smiled at them both and then turned to the tent behind her and called, "Come on everyone, we have to get ready to summon the Crone!" There were excited exclamations from the tent, followed by a dozen men and women all wearing robes just like Cassandra's. They busied themselves immediately around the firewood and the altar. Don would have paid more attention to what they were doing, but Ralph took this moment to say, "Well, I will leave you in Cassandra's capable hands, then." "You won't stay to see what the Crone says?" Don asked. "No," Ralph shook his head. "I want to find myself a mare as soon as possible, and, to be honest, these magical rites are a bit too intense for me." "Are we safe here?" Don asked in a hushed voice. "Oh, yes!" Ralph laughed. "Cassandra's a sweet, kind person. She won't let any harm come to you, but ... well, it's just going to be intense, that's all. It all gives me the willies. Anyway, good luck!" The girls all bid Ralph goodbye, and then he trotted off into the forest, which was already quite dark in the dusk. "Please, Toshia, come with me," Cassandra said. While they went into the tent, a pair of red-robed women came up to Nicole and Shelonda and led them off toward the fire area. A tall young man approached Don and said, "Sir, if you will accompany me." Don followed the man to a wooden chair that had been set off to the side, with a clear view of the altar without actually being close to it. The young man said, "During the rite, you will sit here until the Crone summons you. Do not participate in the ritual at all until that time. It is very important that you save yourself for the Crone. If you do not, she will know and be displeased." "Okay," Don nodded. "Sit in the chair and don't have any fun -- got it." "Oh, and remove your clothing." "Um, all right," Don said. After disrobing and putting his few items of clothing, and his staff, on the ground next to the chair, Don sat down and tried to make himself comfortable, watching the robed witches go about their preparations. He wasn't surprised to note that everyone in what he was thinking of as the coven was in good shape, even though they seemed to represent a spectrum of different ages, from quite young -- like Nicole or Shelonda -- to as old as in their sixties, if Don was any judge of such things. Knowing what he now knew about Eros, though, Don realized that each of these people could be much older than their appearance would indicate, thanks to the rejuvenating powers of the XYZ they drank as water. After the sun set Don was left alone in the clearing, as the others all disappeared into the big tent. Eventually, the group came out in a solemn procession -- one by one -- with Cassandra in the lead. Toshia came second and was wearing a white robe. The entire group made a circle around the pile of firewood, and most of them began to sing some sort of hymn the words of which Don couldn't make out. This went on for several minutes, until, abruptly, Cassandra raised her hands high over her head, and the wood in front of her burst into flame. Well, that was certainly a neat trick, Don thought to himself. He caught himself, though, and tried to make a point of not being quite so skeptical as usual. After all, we're trying to play along with this world's rules here. Maybe things won't work if I've got the wrong attitude. The witches had stopped singing now, and Cassandra took Toshia by the hand and walked her over to stand with her back to the stone altar; the other witches, along with Nicole, Shelonda and Amy, closed the gap in the circle. Facing Toshia, Cassandra raised her arms, with her palms up to the sky, and called out, "O wise mother who guides us and watches over us, we beseech thee to join us this night that the travelers among us may share in the gift of your knowledge and beauty." The witches around the bonfire repeated Cassandra's words, and four of the men lit torches in the fire and placed them in holes Don hadn't noticed before. These torches were positioned about a meter from each corner of the altar. When the men returned to the circle, Cassandra reached out to caress Toshia's face lovingly. She called out, "O guardian of the portal, we offer you this supplicant who comes seeking knowledge and will give you that which you most desire." Then, Cassandra untied the simple knot at the base of Toshia's throat that held the white robe closed. Toshia shrugged the robe off her shoulders and stood there naked in the firelight. If she was frightened or anxious Don could not see it in her expression or posture. Instead, she stood proudly, with her shoulders back and head high. To Don it seemed that it was Toshia, not Cassandra, who was the high priestess of this affair. As the witches around the fire began a low chant, Cassandra took Toshia by the hand and led her to the foot of the altar, and up a set of steps Don hadn't seen earlier. Toshia gently knelt down on the altar and then turned around and lied down upon her back on the cold stone. Don was fascinated to see her bare, pale flesh in the flickering orange and yellow light. He experienced a strong desire to go to the altar then and ravish Toshia even if it did mess up the rite. Instead, he forced himself to sit still in his wooden chair, and kept watching intently. Cassandra moved around to the opposite side of the altar, away from the bonfire, and produced a large pitcher that seemed to be made of clay. The witch proceeded to pour water over Toshia's naked body. From the sharp gasp and sudden tightening of her muscles, Don could tell Toshia had not expected this, but she lay still on the altar. When she'd emptied the pitcher over Toshia, Cassandra set the pitcher out of the way on the ground somewhere behind the altar, and then leaned over the naked, wet offering and kissed her on the lips. Cassandra came around the altar and joined the circle of chanting witches. Once she was there, the group slowly began to move around the fire. The chanting became a bit more rhythmic, and the witches started to move almost as if they were dancing. One by one, each of the participants broke away from the circle to approach the altar and kiss Toshia on the lips. When they had kissed her, each one dropped his or her robe to the ground in front of the altar before returning to the circle. Nicole, Shelonda and Amy each took their turn in this kissing and disrobing ritual, as if they had done this kind of thing many times. As this went on, with an increasing number of naked chanting, dancing celebrants, the rhythm and pace of the chant very slowly rose. The dancers were now holding hands or had their arms around each other's waists. Finally, only Cassandra still wore her robe, so she returned to the altar, kissed Toshia again and exposed her own naked body to the fire-lit night. This seemed to be a signal to the others, for the chanting shifted to a much more rhythmic cant, and Don swore there were now deep, distant drums keeping the beat. As soon as Cassandra returned to the circle, the dancing around the fire became more playful. Now sweaty bodies glistened in the orangey light. Don saw Amy moving along between two men, in each hand a stiff cock, while their hands groped her body. Shelonda passed by with a lovely young woman trying to get her mouth on Shelonda's beautiful heaving bosom. Nicole had allowed a man to catch her from behind and the two of them managed to move around the circle while he kissed the back of her neck and reached around to run his hands over her front. Cassandra danced past with the wanton sensuality of a belly dancer and a certain regal bearing, somehow both reveling in the energy of the rite and aloof from the playfulness rapidly spreading around the circle. The air seemed to be throbbing with the rhythm of the ritual chant, and the heat of the fire and rising eroticism flooded the night. Don looked over to the altar and saw that Toshia had begun to writhe on the stone. Her hands moved over her upper body and her legs rubbed against each other as she felt the aura of lust pulsing from the fire and the dancers. Don watched as she moved her left hand down between her legs, and he had little doubt what she was doing there. As for himself, Don's cock was lying thick on his thigh, growing harder as the rite progressed. Looking back to the fire, Don saw that the dancing had now stopped, though the chanting and the unseen drums continued on. The witches and company were giving in to their desires. Nearby, backlit by the fire, Nicole, had fallen to her hands and knees, and the man who had been following her so closely was now even closer -- fucking her from behind. Don was unsurprised to see that Amy was kneeling between her two men sucking one cock while stroking the other, and then switching. He couldn't see Shelonda, but figured she must be on the other side of the fire. He could see Cassandra, though, straddling a muscular young man, her head thrown back and her breasts thrust up in the night air as she rode him. When he turned his attention back to the altar, Don was surprised to see that a strange dark figure was standing there at Toshia's feet. Don almost sprang from his chair, but somehow managed to remember what he had been told, and resolved to sit still and wait. The figure, which Don presumed must be the guardian of the portal, was hard to discern at first, only a darker shadow in the night, but as Don concentrated it resolved into a tall, distinctly masculine form. Don was sure the shadowy "man" had long horns springing out of its forehead and sweeping back over its head. Toshia didn't seem to notice the creature's presence until it reached out to touch her ankle; the jet black hand seemed more like a talon at first, but then just a hand with long fingers. Toshia looked down to see the figure at her feet, but didn't seem frightened or even surprised. Don could see that she said something, but if there was any reply he could not tell -- he couldn't make out any features of the guardian's face, though he had the distinct impression that there were two fiery eyes of dark red in the shadows. Toshia parted her legs for the darkness and Don watched the claw-like hands moving over her relatively pale skin. As the shadow rose up and lowered itself over her, Toshia's hands left her own body and reached out for the dark shape. Her back arched as the shadows enveloped her. Don found it hard to focus on what was going on atop the altar. At one moment he saw Toshia with her head thrown back and a black creature with its mouth on her neck, and the next there was an almost billowing shadow enveloping her. Then there was a glimpse of her thighs and butt as they flexed while she was fucking the shadow enthusiastically. Her torso strained and tensed, and a mouth with sharp teeth was on her white breast. And then darkness swirled around her. Don was aware that all around the fire the orgy had become general, even though the chanting and the sound of drums went on. He knew that Nicole was now on her back while a new man was between her legs, thrusting with nearly crazed lust. He knew that Amy was being fucked from behind while she took a cock in her mouth. He knew that Cassandra was passionately kissing one of her female subordinates, while another suckled at her tits and reached down to play with her, all while still riding her initial partner. Don could feel his untouched cock, straining painfully in its excited, engorged state. However, he could not seem to look away from the altar. Though he couldn't hear anything but chanting, drums and the moaning of the witches, he was sure Toshia was crying out in a long, hard orgasm. He could tell the shadowy creature on top of her was not finished, though. "No," said a voice next to him, "he will not be finished anytime soon. His need is ... special." Don looked up to see a woman with long white hair swept away from her face and down her back. She was watching the altar with a smile on her thin, red lips. Her dark eyes sparkled in the firelight as she went on, saying, "His phallus is so very hard, like a thing of steel wrapped in a tight sheath of leather. Not as big as one might imagine, but so, so hard, almost painful to touch, until it fills you and you feel his need becoming your own." She was thin, but tautly muscular, and stood confidently and comfortably next to Don. She wore a black sleeveless shift, bound around her narrow waist with a silver cord. "What is his need?" Don finally managed to ask. Her features were sharp and aristocratic, but her smile was friendly as she looked down at him and said, "Sex, obviously, but not like you or them, or her. The guardian feeds off the carnal pleasure of others, particularly the woman with whom he is engaged -- but especially if she's new to him. The energy he draws from her orgasm makes it possible for me to come to you. He will couple with her as long as she can take it, drawing sustenance from her orgasms, and the lust of the others. He does not couple for release, though, but for the reverse. If he comes, which is quite rare, it will be a fiery jet of liquid ecstasy filling up her body -- every fiber." "A fiery jet?" She looked down at him again and smiled warmly, "Don't fear; I was being poetic." Don smiled back, "And your need?" She held out her hand, and Don took it and brought it to his lips, kissing her palm. She laughed and said, "Come with me, Don." A Covin of Witches Desire Toshia. Don stood and moved around his chair, following the white haired woman toward the large red tent. He stole one more glance over his shoulder and saw that Toshia had been pulled to the foot of the altar; her legs were wrapped around the column of deep shadow that stood over her there, her hands were on her breasts and her head lolled to the side with eyes tightly closed. Don imagined that the guardian of the portal was fucking her vigorously with his steely cock. He looked back to the woman leading him, who was looking back at him with an amused smile. Don said, "I didn't see a portal." "The portal is somewhat metaphorical. Cassandra called to me and the guardian, the guardian came, then Toshia came in the other sense, which made it possible for me to come to you." "So he's really not a guardian, but more of a conductor." She laughed as she drew aside the flap of the tent and pulled him inside. "Yes, that is perhaps a more apt description." The tent was lit by a number of candles, and was sumptuously appointed with large, soft carpets and many pillows. "And you are hardly what I would call a 'crone'," Don smiled, admiring the cool beauty of her face and the lithe sexuality of her form. "It's a title, not a description," she answered as she untied the silver cord cinching her gown about her narrow waist. "However, if you would prefer a different appearance..." She changed abruptly into an ancient, toothless hag, straight out of a stereotypical fairy-tale, or Macbeth. She laughed harshly and said, "Perhaps not, though. What about this? Something more befitting the images conjured up in your mind by the rite you witnessed so patiently." She was now a pale woman in a white nightgown. Thick dark hair fell in a tumult down around her shoulders. Her eyes were dark and glowing with a feral lust. Her full lips parted to show long, sharp canines, and were red with blood -- blood that covered her chin and had splattered all over her generous cleavage. Don immediately recalled his fevered teenage fantasies and felt his cock strain despite the obvious danger of the situation. "Or maybe you would prefer I took the appearance of someone more familiar," she said with Toshia's mouth. Don watched as Toshia shrugged out of the black shift the Crone was wearing, to reveal the slim body he had lately come to know so well. Don was both taken aback by these sudden transformations and now completely convinced that there was more to all of the evening's events that clever tricks. He swallowed and managed to say, "No, your original appearance was more than satisfactory." "Ah, thank you," she smiled, and stood before him as she was before, though now naked. Her breasts were not large, but firm for a woman of her apparent age, and the rest of her body was obviously fit and trim. She reached out to take his hand again and drew him to her. As Don's arms slipped around her unusually cool body, her hand took his straining cock in a strong grip. When their lips met and his tongue slipped into her mouth, Don found himself suddenly remembering his first kiss with remarkable clarity. Then he was reliving the moment he lost his virginity (in the basement of his teenage home), the time he had had sex with his girlfriend while another couple were doing it only feet away (in a cheap motel), the time he had slept with a certifiably unhinged woman who was also a completely uninhibited wildcat in bed, the first and second of the threesomes he had enjoyed, and every other memorable sexual moment from his life before the Manor. The memories flooded through his mind in vivid detail, as the Crone kissed him passionately, sucking on his tongue and stroking his cock in her tight grasp. He felt himself being pulled down to the sea of soft pillows as scenes from his time in the Manor played out in his mind. He remembered waking up next to Toshia in that strange bedroom, the wild, unexpected encounter with the Nymphets (including the first time he'd seen Toshia come), the sexual escapades involved in that dodge ball game (including seeing Toshia fucking the Player), the orgiastic ball, the night with the Lady, the first time he and Toshia had sex, watching and participating in Toshia's little gangbang in the second floor corridor, the wild night in the Disco, and the orgy in the steam room, and many other intense erotic memories swept through his mind. Don felt himself entering the Crone's surprisingly hot and wet vagina. The strong grip was no surprise. Still reliving his wilder sexual memories in exceptionally vivid detail, Don held on to the strong but slender woman beneath him and fucked. He fucked her both as if it was the only thing he could imagine doing and as if his life depended upon it. He felt as if his cock was penetrating deeper into the Crone than was physically possible. Her muscles squeezed and pulled at him with incredible dexterity and strength. The vision of Toshia being taken on top of the stone altar was in his mind when Don began to come. To say this was the most intense orgasm of Don's life would be a severe understatement. The cum boiled out of his balls and shot out of him into the Crone in a gushing torrent. He shoved into her and continued to pump jet after jet of cum. He felt her arms and legs wrap around him, pulling him tighter to him, even as her pussy squeezed and pulled at his cock. He thought for a moment that it felt that there were more than just two arms and two legs holding him to her. He opened his eyes and saw the Crone looking at him with a cool, happy smile on her lips. Don felt the orgasm slowly subsiding but then that preternaturally skilled pussy pulled him on, and he was squirting still more cum into her. When he could no longer pump any cum, it seemed that her pussy went on sucking it from him. The ecstasy of coming became a frightening overdose of pleasure and then a painful ordeal as what seemed like minutes passed and he was drained of cum. He groaned wordlessly, and surrendered to the blackness of unconsciousness. Don had no idea how long he was out before he felt the Crone caressing his face with her cool fingers and kissing his lips lightly. When he opened his eyes, she was smiling down at him. "You seek the Sage of the Tower," she said. "Go down into the valley and follow the river there to its source, and you will find the Tower." "Oh, but wha-?" he tried. "Shush," she smiled, "that is all you need to know. Thank you for your gift, Don." Don thought he should say "my pleasure" but he wasn't sure if that was true, and in any case he was already falling asleep. Chapter 3 Toshia Saved & Caught; rough sex in the forest Like Don had done a week earlier, while he was with the Crone, Toshia found herself reliving the erotic adventures she had had since waking up in the Manor. The sounds of the warrior women feasting and carousing nearby only taunted her with the thought that someone might remember her and bring her some food and water. Her deliberate mental game of remembering her time in Eros while she hung tied to the big, wooden X-cross served to distract her from not only her hunger and thirst but also from her frustration and dejection at being in this predicament. These depressing thoughts reminded her of the day ...Was it three days ago already? She must have been very close to drowning, her vision darkening and her temples pounding, when the strong slender arms had slipped around her from behind and she was hoisted up to the surface of the river. She had gulped air into her lungs desperately, and allowed herself to be drawn to shore. Too weak from struggling against the current, Toshia was limp and useless as she was hauled up onto the sandy bank. She lay there gasping, until she felt soft feminine hands brushing the wet hair out of her face. When she opened her eyes, she saw a beautiful young woman with big eyes of blue-green and long straight hair of emerald green looking down at her with concern. "Thank you for saving me," Toshia finally managed. The green-haired girl smiled at her with full inviting lips. She touched Toshia's lips with light fingertips. She licked her own as she traced the outline of Toshia's lips. She looked over Toshia's naked, wet body, and Toshia raised her head enough to see that the girl was also naked and, obviously, wet. She seemed to be very thin, but strong, and quite pale. The girl looked back at Toshia's face and smiled again, and Toshia thought this smile was a bit friendlier now. Well, this is Eros, after all, Toshia thought to herself. It's probably customary to sleep with anyone who saves your life. As if she could read Toshia's mind, the girl leaned in closer, brushing Toshia's skin with her wet hair, and kissed her mouth tentatively. The girl's lips and tongue were cool and moist, and Toshia found herself returning the gentle kiss happily. After only minutes earlier thinking that she was about to drown, this interlude was a most welcome turn of events. Toshia slipped her arms around her rescuer and held her body against her own. For some time, they lay there on the wet ground, kissing each other languorously. Then, with a smile, the green-haired girl pulled away a little and then moved a bit lower, so she could kiss her way down the curve of Toshia's breast. Toshia shuddered as the girl took her nipple and sucked on it. Toshia parted her legs in anticipation as she felt the girl's hand moving up along the inside of her thigh. Suddenly, though, the girl raised her head and looking into the nearby tree line with obvious alarm. In another second, Toshia heard the sound of someone coming toward them through the undergrowth. "It's OK, that's just my friends looking for me," Toshia smiled at the girl, who immediately shook her head and pulled away from Toshia's embrace. Toshia took the moment to look around a bit more carefully and realized that she was quite a bit downriver from where she had fallen in and, moreover, on the wrong side. It couldn't possibly be Don and the others making all that noise in the woods. Toshia looked warily at the woods, and then back to the girl who had saved her life. She was alarmed to see the green-haired waif diving back into the water. "Wait!" Toshia called as she scrambled to her feet. "Oh, damn!" said a masculine voice behind her. "She got away!" "Of course she did," said another. "The way you two go crashing about, it's impossible to sneak up on anything!" "At least we've got a consolation prize this time," said a third. Being called a consolation prize almost wiped the shocked expression off Toshia's face. Out of the forest had emerged three figures, about five and a half feet tall, with long, dark, curly hair and beards, and bare, muscular torsos and arms. They also had short, curled horns growing out of their foreheads and the hindquarters of goats. Naturally, they also had very prominent and generous male genitalia. Of course, after meeting Ralph the centaur she should not have been so surprised to be confronted by bona fide satyrs. In fact, Ralph hadn't even been the strangest thing she'd encountered since leaving the Manor; there was the demonic guardian of the portal to name just one thing.One thing that had fucked my brains out! she thought to herself. Still, in spite of herself, Toshia was shocked by the sight of these half-man, half-goats. "She does look like she'll give us some sport," said one of the satyrs with an obvious leer. "How about it, toots," grinned the third one who'd spoken, "you up for some fun and games?" "Um, actually, I was just going to find my friends," Toshia said taking a step toward the forest away from the three satyrs. "We can be your friends," suggested the satyr who had spoken first. He took a step closer to her on his hoofed feet and gave his already hard and thick cock a squeeze. "We're very friendly." "Oh, well, I'm sure, but I should really be going." "What's the hurry?" said satyr number two, without taking his eyes off her naked body. "Come on, honey," said number three, "we'll show you a real good time." Toshia was simultaneously revolted by the smarmy attitudes, alarmed that it seemed clear they had no intention of taking "no" for an answer, and annoyed with herself for being a bit aroused by the thought of having a "real good time" with three goat-men. Goddamn that fucking XYZ! "Tell you what," said number two, doing his apparent best to sound good-natured, "we'll give you a head start, and if we catch you we'll have some fun." Thinking it was a good idea to take advantage of a chance to put some distance between herself and them, Toshia nodded and said, "Fine." Without waiting for them to say anything else, she sprang for the trees and made for the nearest hillside up away from the river. Tree branches lashed at her bare skin, and she wished she had fallen into the river with her sandals on, but she didn't slow down. She clambered up a hill, vaulted over a large rock and then half-ran, half-fell down the other side, only to start up the next one. Ducking under a thick branch, she turned to the left and started running along the ridge of a line of hills that seemed to parallel the course of the river. She was trying to close some of the distance between the satyrs and where she had fallen into the river. She was vaguely aware that there were now sounds of pursuit echoing in the forest. Toshia slowed just a little to catch her breath, but that only allowed her to realize that the satyrs were getting alarmingly close. She even caught sight of one moving through the trees off to her left, cutting her off from the river. Plunging ahead again with renewed determination, Toshia clambered up the side of the next hill almost on all fours. At the top of the steep slope, she saw a sunlit clearing in the distance. With the vague hope that she might be able to get someone's attention on the other side of the river, Toshia set her sights on reaching that clearing. She might have made it too, if she hadn't tripped on an ill-placed root. Toshia went sprawling in the thick forest carpet of leaves right in front of an enormous tree trunk that had fallen years ago and was now covered with a deep layer of green moss. She heard someone coming up the hill close behind her, and frantically scrambled to her feet. Toshia hurried to get hold of the mossy tree trunk and raised her foot to get purchase on it so she could vault over, but then felt a strong, hairy arm slipping around her waist to pull her back down. "Gotcha!" the satyr laughed, as he pulled her behind against his front, at the same time pushing her chest and face forward against the soft moss in front of her. Toshia struggled, trying to twist out of his grasp, but he was too strong and she was too winded. She felt the head of his cock between her legs and rubbing up against her outer lips. He pushed her against the moss with one hand, holding her in place, while using the other to get his sex organ in the right position. Toshia gritted her teeth as he pushed himself into her. It wasn't an enormous cock, but it was hard and thick, and she had to admit at that moment, with the XYZ and the adrenaline of the chase coursing through her veins, it felt good to be filled. Toshia clutched the mossy trunk, and closed her eyes, as the satyr held on to her hips roughly and began to fuck in and out of her from behind, shoving violently. In addition to the sensation of the penis sliding in and out of her all too eager pussy, Toshia was keenly aware of the thick mat of fur brushing against her legs and butt as he took her and the fact that her tits were being pressed into the yielding moss with the solid resistance of the tree behind it. She knew that she was, basically, being raped by a half-man, half-goat creature, but she also knew she was enjoying it. The question of whether she should actually consider this rape would occupy her mind quite a bit in the days afterward, and particularly while she was strapped to the X-cross. On the one hand, she had actually said "Fine" to the satyr's proposal that "if we catch you we'll have some fun", but, on the other, at the time of that agreement she had been convinced they were going to have their way with her in any case. However, she knew that rape in the normal world she called home was not really a crime of sex but of violence. Someone who raped another wasn't really trying to have sex with them, but to hurt them. Somehow, Toshia did not get the sense that these satyrs wanted to hurt her in the least; they seemed to just want to fuck, and given the nature of this world, it might be reasonable for them to presume that she would enjoy a good tumble in the woods. Still, the girl who had pulled her from the river had obviously wanted to avoid getting caught by the randy goat-men. Later she would ponder these issues, but for that moment against the moss-covered tree trunk she just let herself enjoy the rough fucking. It wasn't too long before the goat-man began to shove into her with even more force, and then his cock swelled and shot his hot satyr cum into her. It felt like there was quite a bit, and it took him some time before he pulled out of her and slapped her butt happily. Toshia slumped against the fallen tree trunk, both relieved and frustrated. She started to push away from the tree, to make an attempt at gaining that clearing ahead somewhere, but another pair of rough hands took hold of her and pushed her back against the moss. "Not so fast, toots," said satyr number three. Without any other preamble, he shoved his cock into her pussy, squishing his partner's cum out to run down the insides of her thighs. Toshia surprised herself by letting out a happy moan as she was filled again. While the satyr proceeded to fuck her with great enthusiasm, Toshia let go of the moss with her left hand and managed to get it down between the trunk and her body, so she could get her fingers on her clit. She began to stroke herself frantically as the cock pistoned in and out of her almost savagely. In only moments, Toshia found herself gasping and moaning as her orgasm tore through her violated body. She shook and whimpered while the satyr had his way with her until he filled her up with his own flood of cum. He pulled out of her, and she felt more cum running down her legs. Laughing, he said, "Told you we'd have fun." Toshia wasn't surprised to hear satyr number one say, "My turn!" This time, though, she managed to roll around and get her back against the mossy tree trunk. She actually found herself smiling at the hairy goat-man as he stepped up in front of her. Toshia put her hands on his broad shoulders and let him lift her up a bit. Soon, she had her thighs supported on his furry haunches as he pushed his eager cock up inside her. She looked at his grinning, bearded face with its little horns, and even laughed a little as he lowered his mouth to her tits to suck and bite on her nipples. She rocked against him as he fucked in and out of her, letting his hairy torso rub against her clit. Leaning back against the curve of the trunk behind her, Toshia let herself enjoy getting fucked there in the woods by an actual satyr. She smiled when she felt his cock swell inside her to spew a third torrent of cum into her pussy, only to spill in a slow river out of her as soon as he withdrew. She noticed that the other two satyrs were still standing there, watching, with still very hard cocks standing in front of them. Perhaps they would have let her go in that moment, but Toshia had her mind on other things. She laughed and said, "Well, hello boys; are you just going to stand there? I thought you promised me a good time." This prompted laughter from all three of them, and they hastened forward. In the next moment, Toshia was surrounded by all three of the satyrs as they pawed her with their eager hands and kissed and nibbled at her wherever they could reach. Fingers pinched her nipples and pushed up inside her soggy cunt. One enterprising individual got his finger nice and slippery and pushed it up inside her ass. This reminded Toshia of that wonderful time she'd had in the steam room with Don and Peter, only a few days earlier, and gave her an idea. "OK, well, before we go any further, don't you think you should introduce yourselves?" Toshia laughed. Any further? They've each fucked me and they've got their fingers in my pussy and ass! "Oh, I'm Scratch," said satyr number two. "I'm Roscoe," said number one. "And, I'm Bob," said three. "I'm Toshia," she said. "Now that we've got that out of the way. Why don't you lie down on your back here, Bob?" Bob was only too happy to comply, and Toshia promptly straddled him, and took his stiff cock in her hand, pushing the head of it into her pussy, which was quite ready for more action. She sank down on Bob's shaft, leaning forward by placing both hands on his broad hairy chest. Toshia slid up and down on him a couple of times, just because it felt good. Then, she looked over her shoulder and said, "Scratch, can you get back there and fuck me in the ass?" "I sure can!" Scratch said with a grin. There was some scrambling around, and an interesting moment when Scratch pushed his finger up inside her wet pussy with Bob's cock (Oh my! That's interesting! I'll have to try to remember that.). After her own juices and a liberal amount of satyr cum was worked into her butt and smeared over his organ, Scratch slowly pushed himself into her butt. "Oh fuck that feels good!" she exclaimed. "Yes, push it in me!" An unexpected orgasm hit her then, and she held still there as her pussy and ass clenched on the two cocks inside her. Moaning and trembling, Toshia rode it out with a smile on her face. When she had started to come down, she looked down at Bob and over her shoulder at Scratch and said, "Well, what are you waiting for boys, fuck me!" The two satyrs began to do as they were told, working their thick, hard cocks in and out of her. Whether they had practiced this trick before or it was an innate satyr skill, they quickly got into a perfect rhythm, pumping and grinding against her body as if the three of them were one ideal sex machine. Toshia made sure she was giving as good as she was getting, working her pelvis in time with the way the satyrs were pushing and pulling inside her. When she felt comfortable and knew she could keep up, she looked around and beckoned Roscoe over. The third satyr moved over on his cloven hooves to stand in front of Toshia. She reached up with her left hand and took his cock in her hand and pulled it to her mouth, tasting his cum and her own juices on him. Once she had the fat head in her mouth, she stroked the shaft in her fist. Bob reached up to cup her breasts in his hands and to help hold her up. Letting Bob and Scratch do most of the fucking work, Toshia relaxed to enjoy those sensations and concentrated her active attention on Roscoe's cock. She pulled him closer so that she could get her mouth working up and down on him, pushing the head deeper in her mouth so she could feel his thick shaft moving over her lips and her tongue. I wish Don could see me! she thought as she relaxed her throat and sank deeper on to Roscoe's cock. She let go of the base of his shaft and held onto his hips with both hands, both for support and to shove him back if it became necessary, but she was now letting him fuck her mouth and throat. Roscoe was surprisingly careful, holding her head gently in his hands and moving slowly and steadily. Meanwhile, Bob lay under her flexing his hairy abdomen to push himself up inside her pussy, and Scratch held on to her hips and fucked in and out of her ass vigorously. Toshia was intent on making the satyrs come before she came again, but her body had other ideas, and soon she was moaning and trembling while an intense orgasm shook her from head to toe. The frantic clenching of her pussy and ass pulled Bob and Scratch past the point of no return, and they filled her up with more of their cum. Roscoe, who had come most recently anyway, held out a bit longer, but the other two were still inside her when Toshia felt him swelling in her mouth and throat and then pumping gout after gout of sweet, hot cum into her stomach, and then filling her mouth. Pulling away from her, he splashed on final stream of pearly jizz across the bridge of her nose and down her cheek. Still hard, Bob and Scratch continued to fuck her squishy pussy and ass until she came again and again. Only when she had collapsed between them, did they extract themselves and carry her off to their camp in the forest, where they bathed and fed her. That night, the next day, and the night after were spent in a marathon of satyr fucking that left Toshia exhausted. Toshia now, bound to the X-cross, strained again at her restraints, wishing she could get at her pussy and clit now. She needed to make herself come. She remembered how she had awoken the third day, well into afternoon. The satyrs were gone, and she was surrounded by the gathering party from the warrior woman camp. Angry at being abandoned, worn out from the incessant demands of three hard pricks, frustrated at being lost, Toshia had been a bit happy to learn that she was going to be taken to a bunch of women, but that hadn't lasted long. She remembered how they had tied her up underneath a pole carried on the shoulders of two brawny men. The next two days were spent hanging there as she was carried further down river, to the castle where she now stood on frustrating display. To be continued. By BradentonLarry for Literotica

Israel had been through a school of hard knocks. You ever have a history? You ever get that scarred chip on your shoulder? “Yeah I'm a believer. I guess. I don't know why. XYZ happened. That threw me for a loop,” and then you kind of - either vocally OR subconsciously get to this, “God owes me,” sort of feeling. Embittered. “I guess I grew up. I thought He was with me. For me. I guess not.” Even so, God has the audacity to look Israel in the face after all they've been through when they thought they could trust Him - and He says, "I HAVE loved you!"

The ASX 200 jumped out of the box to finish up 29 points to 7997 (0.4%) as some caution crept in as the day wore on. CBA turned negative, not helping as NAB soared 1.7% and the Big Bank Basket fell to $260.16 (-0.2%). Financials were generally firm, AMP finding a few new friends up 2.5% and XYZ bouncing slightly. GQG fell 1.4% and PNI popped 2.7%. REITs were mixed, GMG rose 0.8%. Healthcare stocks back in favour, RMD up 2.4% and even CSL put on 1.0% with PME up 3.7%. TLX fell 6.6% on FDA news. Industrials were positive with WES up 1.4% and the tech space better, XRO up 1.9% and the Index up 1.3%. Retailers getting a boost with JBH up 1.5% and AX1 rising 1.7%. HVN also put on 2.4%. In resources, gold miners continued to see profit taking as bullion slipped further as risks cooled. NEM fell 1.3% with VAU down 2.3% and GMD falling 3.6%. Lithium stocks are under pressure again, with LTR down 4.4% and PLS falling 2.4%. BHP slid 1.1% with RIO unchanged. LYC led rare earth stocks higher on its quarterly, uranium stocks saw modest moves with STO up 2.2% and WDS gaining 1.8%. In corporate news, BVS slid 11.2% on a surprise CEO resignation. AGI rose 31.1% as minority shareholder bid 100c for remaining shares. Nothing on the economic front today. China making some noises about stimulus and protecting jobs. Asian markets firmed, Japan up 0.4%, China unchanged and HK up 0.1%. 10-year yields falling to 4.16%.Want to invest with Marcus Today? The Managed Strategy Portfolio is designed for investors seeking exposure to our strategy while we do the hard work for you.If you're looking for personal financial advice, our friends at Clime Investment Management can help. Their team of licensed advisers operates across most states, offering tailored financial planning services.  Why not sign up for a free trial? Gain access to expert insights, research, and analysis to become a better investor.

Israel had been through a school of hard knocks. You ever have a history? You ever get that scarred chip on your shoulder? “Yeah I'm a believer. I guess. I don't know why. XYZ happened. That threw me for a loop,” and then you kind of - either vocally OR subconsciously get to this, “God owes me,” sort of feeling. Embittered. “I guess I grew up. I thought He was with me. For me. I guess not.” Even so, God has the audacity to look Israel in the face after all they've been through when they thought they could trust Him - and He says, "I HAVE loved you!"

Today's bonus episode is all about MEPs, and actually a very urgent issue related to MEPs. For context, the Manufacturing Extension Partnership (MEP) is a public-private partnership that delivers comprehensive, proven solutions by helping small and medium-sized manufacturers grow, make operational improvements, and reduce risk.To put it in more simplified terms - MEPs provide resources to small- and medium-sized manufacturers that allow them to adopt new technology, upskill and train their people, and ultimately create jobs in their area. Every state has one, they go by different names in different states, and it was recently announced that this program was being defunded.Specifically, funding for 10 state MEP initiatives expired at the end of March, and the government's controlling agency, the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), chose not to renew them. This is a moving target, it could change (as it already has once by extending the deadline to the end of the fiscal year), and quite frankly manufacturers don't know what's going to happen. It hasn't been communicated as to why this cut is taking place, but the reality is right now is there is a concern across the manufacturing community that funding for the entire MEP initiative - across all 50 states - might get cut.As a result of this action, a number of manufacturing podcasters got together to discuss the situation and actions that you, as manufacturers, can take to have your voices heard and say "This is ridiculous. My MEP has helped my business and community succeed for XYZ reason." We cannot afford to lose a critical resource like this that so many small- to mid-sized manufacturers rely on. All this an more in today's episode.

There has never been a time when the influence of nonprofit leaders was more needed. In particular, we need to have influence with the money and policy decision makers that hold the power to help or harm the people we serve.At the same time, a lot of things are happening that could leave a nonprofit leader feeling pretty vulnerable and powerless. Our challenge is to find a way to move like water and create that influence no matter what else is going on. One of the things I hear most frequently from nonprofit leaders I work with is some version of, we can't get XYZ critical decision maker to listen to us. We've tried everything and we can't get through to them. We either can't get them to listen, or we can't get access to them, or both. And then what happens is folks just kind of give up on those decision makers or resign themselves to not being able to have influence with them.I get how that happens, but what's that costing you? If these are money and policy decision makers that matter, can you afford not to have influence with them? Is that really an option?      In this episode, we share:The two biggest problems most nonprofit leaders have in getting access to the right decisionmakers, and how to solve themHow past experience with decisionmakers can lead you to the wrong conclusions about influence building – and how that gets in your wayHow to train your subconscious brain to seek out and funnel influence-building opportunities to youHow to craft messaging that will really land with a decisionmaker, and motivate them to work with youWhat it really means to speak the decisionmaker's language, and why it makes such a huge differenceHow to know when it's time to switch tactics and build influence another way I'm preparing to launch a group coaching program that will focus specifically on helping you craft messaging that will shift decisionmakers' perspectives and get them on board with sustaining and even expanding your funding. This will be a coaching opportunity for a limited number of people to come in and be part of a group. There'll be some training, but most of it will be coaching and helping you to get your messaging dialed in so that you can address this pressing need.  What I'm seeing right now is there's nothing more important than this. If that sounds like something you'd like to be a part of, message me through the podcast website or on LinkedIn.  Links:Episode 67 -- Three Keys to FInding the Right Decisionmaker in any System 

In this second half of his conversation, Gagan Sandhu pulls back the curtain on what it really means to design financial independence. It's not about the FIRE movement or early retirement—it's about knowing your trade-offs and making conscious, math-informed decisions that align with your values. From career reinvention every 10 years to balancing ambition with family time, Gagan offers Gen Xers a refreshingly grounded take on money, identity, and midlife work design.>>Financial Independence Is a Design Decision“I didn't quit to escape. I quit because I could—on my own terms.”Gagan redefines financial independence not as a finish line, but a framework for how to live, work, and choose with freedom.>>It's Not About the Number. It's About the Math Behind Your Life“I built a five-year runway—not a fantasy.”He walks through how he calculated his freedom, X + Y + Z style: long-term retirement, short-term burn, and real-life expenses like college.>>FIRE vs Philosophy“Desires evolve. So does your definition of freedom.”In a head-to-head with Vince, Gagan goes deep on the psychology of wealth—and why independence without self-awareness is just another trap.>>Ageism or Skill Gap?“Don't blame age. Upgrade your playbook.”Gagan reframes mid-career uncertainty not as an HR problem, but a personal pivot point—and makes a sharp case for reinvention every 10 years.>>Teaching the Tool, Not the Trick“You don't need financial content. You need clarity.”He explains how Zillion helps busy families and immigrants manage wealth like pros—not through advice, but through intuitive, data-backed modeling._________________________Connect with us:Host: Vince Chan | Guest: Gagan Sandhu  --Chief Change Officer--Change Ambitiously. Outgrow Yourself.Open a World of Expansive Human Intelligencefor Transformation Gurus, Black Sheep,Unsung Visionaries & Bold Hearts.12 Million+ All-Time Downloads.Reaching 80+ Countries Daily.Global Top 3% Podcast.Top 10 US Business.Top 1 US Careers.>>>140,000+ are outgrowing. Act Today.

If He never did another thing—what He's already done would've been enough! Tap in to this new episode of XYZ as we break down the power of gratitude, grace, and God's overwhelming goodness. This one will shift your perspective!

Jake DeRuyter, a 2015 Air Force Academy graduate, shares a compelling leadership journey marked by unexpected challenges and resilient adaptation. ----more---- SUMMARY Initially aspiring to be a pilot, Jake faced a critical moment when back surgery disqualified him from his dream career, forcing him to quickly choose a new Air Force Specialty Code within just one hour. Despite the uncertainty, he remained calm and strategic, ultimately transitioning to intelligence and then to an ROTC instructor role. His leadership philosophy emerged from these experiences: staying flexible, maintaining a strong network, and focusing on developing others rather than just personal advancement.   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN | FACEBOOK   JAKE'S LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS  - Always be willing to adapt and stay resilient when unexpected challenges arise, like Jake did when he couldn't become a pilot and had to quickly choose a new career path.  - Build and maintain a strong network of connections, as these relationships can help you navigate career transitions and provide support.  - Focus on developing the people around you, not just your own career advancement. A great leader lifts up their team and helps others grow.  - Stay proactive in reaching out to people, checking in, and genuinely listening to their stories and experiences.  - Be willing to take risks on talented individuals, especially those from similar backgrounds or networks, like how Jake was given an opportunity by fellow graduates.  - Maintain a competitive spirit and drive, but channel it into continuous self-improvement and supporting others.  - Give back to your community, whether through mentoring, volunteering, or leading local chapters and organizations.  - Be prepared to put in consistent daily effort, understanding that success comes from habits and persistent hard work.  - Stay open to unexpected opportunities and be willing to pivot when your initial career path doesn't work out.  - Prioritize relationships and connections over individual achievements, recognizing that your success is often measured by the people you've helped develop.   JAKE'S TOP 5 LEADERSHIP LESSONS Here are the 5 best leadership lessons from Jake DeRuyter's interview:   Build Others Up, Not Just Yourself Jake emphasized that true leadership is about developing the people around you. As he said, "Don't just worry about your own career and life" - great leaders are judged by the success of those they mentor and support.   Stay Adaptable and Resilient When Jake's pilot career was unexpectedly derailed, he demonstrated the critical leadership skill of staying calm under pressure and quickly pivoting. He chose to focus on what he could control rather than getting stuck on what he couldn't change.   Maintain Genuine Connections Jake consistently stressed the importance of reaching out, checking in with people, and truly listening. He makes time to connect with classmates, colleagues, and fellow graduates, understanding that relationships are the foundation of effective leadership.   Take Calculated Risks and Support Others Jake's career trajectory shows the importance of being willing to take risks - both for yourself and for others. He was given a chance by fellow graduates and now pays it forward by helping other transitioning military members.   Give Back Consistently Leadership isn't just about personal achievement, but about contributing to your community. Jake exemplifies this through his role as chapter president, mentoring cadets, and always being available to help fellow Air Force Academy graduates.   EPISODE CHAPTERS 00:00  Introduction to Leadership Journeys 05:31  Navigating Life's Crossroads 12:01  The Role of Mentorship and Family 17:31  Transitioning from Military to Civilian Life 20:48  Motivation and Personal Drive 22:02  The Daily Grind: A Shift in Focus 24:31  Building Community: Chapter Leadership 27:29 Challenges of Leadership and Engagement 29:00 Giving Back: The Importance of Community 31:12  Leadership Lessons: Daily Practices 32:53  Advice for Aspiring Leaders 34:25  Reflections on Involvement and Connection 36:40  Final Thoughts and Gratitude   ABOUT JAKE BIO As a 2015 graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, Jake spent six years on active duty serving as an Intel Officer and ROTC Instructor. Having left the service, he now am an Account Executive on the Air Force team at IMPRES Technology Solutions providing active duty units with the tech they need to accomplish the mission. - Copy courtesy of Jake DeRuyter and LinkedIn   CONNECT WITH JAKE LINKEDIN  |  ASSOCIATION OF GRADUATES - CENTRAL TEXAS CHAPTER     ALL PAST LBL EPISODES  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS     FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS GUEST, JAKE DERUYTER '15  |  HOST, LT. COL. (RET.) NAVIERE WALKEWICZ '99   Naviere Walkewicz  00:00 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership, the podcast where we share insights on leadership through the lives and experiences of Air Force Academy graduates. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. My guest today is Jake DeRuyter, Class of '15, currently an account executive with Impress Technology and the president of the Central Texas Chapter of the Association of Graduates, quite possibly our youngest graduate to do so. He is second-generation Air Force following his father, a graduate from the Class of '85, and uncle, Class of '87 from our Air Force Academy, the only school that he applied to after high school. We'll talk about those things, Jake's leadership journey and a particular crossroad he arrived at when he had one hour to decide his entire life. Jake, welcome to Long Blue Leadership, and I'd like to dive right in: One hour to decide your entire life. What's that about?   Jake DeRuyter  01:22 Yeah, so my second semester, first year, I was dealing with some pretty significant back issues, and didn't realize how just how severe it was. So I'm in the flight dock. It was either the Monday the week before or the week of graduation, and the doctor's like, “Hey, you're gonna need back surgery to remove the bulging disc in your back.” I'm like, “OK, great. I can barely walk, so sign me up. Whatever you can do make me feel better.” And they're like, “Well, you're not gonna be able to keep your pilot slot if you proceed with the surgery.” And I'm not gonna lie and say it was my end all dream to be a pilot, but you go through all four years thinking you're gonna fly, you're pretty fired up for it, we're a week away from graduation, and then it's like, hey, the rug is just pulled. But I had to make a decision right there where it's like, “Hey, I'd rather be able to walk and be pain free than fly.” And so that was a pretty easy decision at that point. And then the next part is, what you alluded to, is where things got a little tricky. So being just a couple days before walking across the stage and saluting the secretary of the Air Force, I'm like, “So what's my job going to be?” I don't even know what else is available in the Air Force. I didn't have to focus on this.” And they're like, “Well, I'm just the flight doc. Go talk to the personnel office over in Vandy, and they'll get you taken care of.” So, I walk — or hobble — on over there, And I'm like, “Hey, Jake DeRuyter, I told the flight doc to give y'all a call, you know, to get me a new job. What's my life look like? What are we doing next?” And she just goes, “Well, there was a big missileer crisis, and we're really desperate for missileers. So, you're gonna be missiles now.” And I'm just, like — my jaw dropped.   Naviere Walkewicz Not what you expected to hear.   Jake DeRuyter  Not what I wanted and like, not to downplay missiles, just not what I wanted to join the Air Force to do, right? That's... I'm just like, standing there in shock. And she's like, “Are you OK?” And I'm like, “I kind of want to jump off my room on top of Vandy, but you know, it's gonna be fine. Do I get some preferences? Do I have any say in this?” Just assigning that to kind of seems aggressive. She goes, “Well, I guess I can take your preferences down.” And I'm just like, “Why didn't you lead with that? That would have been great.” And so she's like, “Well, I need to submit these right now. So, what do you want to do?” I'm like, “Well, what are my options? I don't even know what other AFSC's there are.” So, that becomes a very frantic hour of me calling all my teachers. I was a management major — I highly recommend that. One of the best decisions of my life was going through the management department. And I call my teachers and they're like, “Hey, stick with something business related, like contracting, acquisitions, finance. If you put one of those three down, you're guaranteed to do it.” I'm like, “OK, sweet. Sounds like it sure bets on me. Like, that, sounds easy enough.” but they made you put down five. And, you know, you always hear the horror stories where if you don't put down something, it defaults to the needs of the Air Force, right? So I think I put down like PA, just because I was like, “There's no way they'll pick me for that. There's barely any PA officers.” And I, for the life of me, couldn't tell you what I put in the fifth spot. And so, I walk out of there kind of dejected. I'm like, “Man, my whole life just changed in the span of an hour. No idea what the next— I don't know where I'm gonna be living. I don't know what my job's gonna be like. What in the world's going on?” So, the next day we're all sitting in one of those final briefings, you know, “Hey, here's how you PCS. Here's how you do XYZ.” Right? As the meeting's about to kick off, that same tech sergeant — God, I'd give her a big hug now — she walks up to me with some paperwork and says, “Congratulations, sir.” And I'm looking at her like the person just told me my life was over the day before, so I'm not exactly happy to see this person. And then I look at the paper, and it just says, “Goodfellow Air Force Base.” I had no idea where in the world that was, what job that was or anything. I just knew it wasn't Vandenberg for missileer training. So I just look at her and go, “I'm not missiles?” She's like, “You're not missiles.” I stand up, give her a big old hug. You know, they're trying to start a briefing. They're like, “Sir, please sit down for...” “Sorry, I'm too happy right now.” So yeah, that started me off on my journey to San Angelo, Texas, which I didn't really know what I was getting into there, but, yeah, going intel kind of led me to where I am now in life. And looking back on it now, all the crazy things that happened, it put me where I am now, and so, I'm very thankful for the things and how they all ended up and put me in a position where I can give back to the community now and really serve the Air Force and fellow grads in a much better capacity than I ever could have while on active duty.   Naviere Walkewicz  05:30 Well, it's so interesting because, you know, you think about the Air Force Academy as a place where they teach you to be able to make decisions on the fly, or to make the best calculated decision you can at the time.What leadership lessons do you think you called upon in that frantic moment of well, not only can you not be a pilot now because we're going to have this surgery, but now you have to pick an AFSC. What do you think you drew upon to guide you through that in a kind of a leadership manner?   Jake DeRuyter  06:02 Yeah, the biggest thing was just staying calm and realizing,  OK, whatever happens, happens, I can't change the past. I can only deal with the information given, and push forward. I could sit there and get upset with myself or upset at the world, but that doesn't do anything. It's like, “All right, how do we take action?? How we take that next step to get over this?” Because you want to be in control of your life as much as possible, going forward, right? And choosing your AFSC, arguably, is probably one of the biggest things you could possibly choose in life, next to your spouse and things like that. And that determines, however, what your entire Air Force career is going to be. So yeah, doing that in the hour was definitely very frantic. But, one of the biggest things I really pride myself on, and really want to encourage others is the connections you make throughout your Academy experience, through active duty, in your life — those are the people that are going to help you in those dark times, those tough times. And lean on those people. And the only way you can lean on them is if you prove to them that they can lean on you when they need help, right? As that's one of the things I make a pillar in my life is, when those friends are in a dark time, I want to be the one that, “Hey, I'll be there for you.” That's always one thing I'm passionate about, and what I centered my leadership philosophy around.   Naviere Walkewicz  07:15 I love that. I think you just kind of hit on it, right? You have this network, and I imagine your family is part of that — your dad being a graduate. What role did he play in this moment in your life, and how did you navigate that with him?   Jake DeRuyter  07:30 Yeah, he was awesome, and he was a big reason why I went to the Academy. He always did a really good job of putting that as an option but not forcing it or not shoving it down my throat. And I was really thankful to him for the life me and my sister had growing up, and all the crazy places we moved to and everything. And I didn't really know what I wanted to do, as you hinted in the preview. I didn't apply anywhere else because I didn't really know what I wanted to do when I grew up. And he was like, “Hey, the Academy was always a great place, and worst case, they tell you what to do.” And he's like, “Hey, if you want a similar life to where you grew up, I attribute everything to that, and that's kind of what led me there.” So yeah, you better believe after calling my teachers to figure out what AFSC I should do, he was my next call to be like, “Hey, I knew you always wanted me to fly, but that's not working anymore. So what do you think?” So, he's been a tremendous help my entire life. I mean, I talk to him at least every week. So, yeah, huge help there.   Naviere Walkewicz  08:27 That's amazing. So you went on to be an intel officer, and what was that like? And then how did you decide that it was going to be time to move on to transitioning out of the military.   Jake DeRuyter  08:42 Yeah, so intel wasn't exactly a great fit for me, and what I was like trying to do. You know, when you're told your intel, I imagine— I knew nothing. So I'm like, “Oh, I'll be a spy. I'll be James Bond. I'll be the CIA. None of those were remotely true. So, I got stationed in San Antonio, Texas, for my first job, which was great. I love San Antonio. I worked with some amazing people. Our mission was a little funky. We were doing defensive cyber ops as it was kind of standing up. So, doing intel support for a mission that doesn't really know what they're doing is a little difficult at the time. Now, knock on wood, hopefully things have gotten a lot better since I was there, but building the plane as you're flying was our moniker that we would use. And so it was definitely challenging. And then a lot of it just felt like doing homework and giving briefings over and over again. So, you have a lot of hours in the SCIF doing researching on different cyber threats and then going and briefing the commanders. It was a cool job; I learned a ton. But it wasn't very fulfilling for me. I wanted to get out, be more helpful to other people and have more of a direct impact. And so that led me to teaching ROTC at Texas State, which was a great three years, and really kind of re-blued me. I loved that job. Can't recommend it enough for people that are looking to take a break from their career field. But then when they said, “Hey, you got to go back to intel,” that was my big decision, or my the point where I was like, “All right, I don't think an active-duty career is left in the cards for me. I'm gonna take my next step, moving on.”   Naviere Walkewicz  10:09 So, you even talked about before you decided to transition out of the Air Force, you had pivoted within your career field and took a temporary job outside of your career field as an ROTC instructor, and you said it re-blued. You talk about that and how did it grow you as a leader? I mean, what did you learn about yourself in that?   Jake DeRuyter  10:29 I learned that I really cared about the people more than the operational mission, and so, building up the people, building out the future lieutenants. Like, “Hey, that's how I can better serve the Air Force.” And the whole reason I got the job was because they had to give a waiver for me, because I was technically still a lieutenant, which was not allowed. But I was really upfront with my leadership and my intel job, and they knew I didn't love the career field and I wasn't really a good fit for that world. But they're like, “Hey, Jake's out, great at recruiting. He's good at getting people to go out and do things and help others. He'd be a natural fit there.” So they called all the ROTC leadership to vouch for me to get that job. And then one of the biggest things I took away is that when you go to the Academy, if you're in the Academy, you're in. You have a spot in the Air Force, assuming you pass all your classes, you don't get kicked out for X, Y, Z reasons, and then you'll have a job. ROTC is completely different. You could have 4.0, max your PT scores, be the perfect cadet. And then the Air Force decides, “Hey, we're only taking 40% this year,” which happened my second year in the job and we just had to lose half of our class. So, learning to deal with that rejection when there's nothing that you personally could have done was really challenging. And we had a ton of mentorship sessions with the cadets. “Hey, what are second, tertiary options?” Things like that. Kind of like what I did where it's like, “You're going to be— the doors will get slammed in your face over and over again in life. How do you respond to that, that resiliency and then that flexibility to adapt and overcome?” I mean, those are stuff I'll take with me for the rest of my life.   Naviere Walkewicz  12:01 Wow. And so you got to be a mentor in a way for those Air Force ROTC cadets, if they didn't get a slot, and kind of navigating. And then you found yourself in that seat when you decided to transition yourself, right?   Jake DeRuyter  12:14 Yeah. So, they were gonna send me to another intel role, and I had just met my wife at the time. We were gonna get married soon. I'm like, “Man, the time to deploy and kind of live the Air Force life isn't my main goal anymore, and so I tried to push out my separation date as long as possible, so I had time to do the job search and really see what else is out there. And I didn't really know what I wanted to be once again. But I was like, “Hey, I love living here in Austin, Texas. I figure I can get something tech related or sales related,” I'm kind of naturally inclined to both of those things. And one of my classmates, Keith Link,  he reached out to me because I host a big March Madness pool every year for a ton of grads. And he's like, “Hey, man, just started this role here. I think you'd be a great fit for the company. We're trying to build out our Air Force team. Our boss is a Navy grad. Would you be interested in interviewing us?” And then I was like, “Yeah, man, that sounds great.” You know, I'd still be working with the Air Force in a tech- slash sales-type role. I'm like, “Yeah, this is everything that I wanted. Sounds awesome…” having, once again, no idea I was getting into. But I go through the interview process and I'm trying to sell myself on SkillBridge, trying to get that free internship saying,  “Hey, I could be a free worker for y'all for a couple of months here.” I'm trying to sell myself. And at the end of the interview process, John Podolak, '88 Navy grad, I believe. He's like, “Jake, you've had a bunch of people vouch for you. I really believe in the grad network; it doesn't matter which Academy you went to.” He said, “Hey, if you're gonna come and do SkillBridge with us, I want you to know you have a job offer at the end of it.” And he handed me my job offer right there. I think we were four months out, so I was in shock. To this day I can't believe it. He took the risk on me that coming fresh in a completely separate career field, no background besides being able to speak Air Force. And it all goes back to our Long Blue Line. I don't know what Navy calls it, but it's a “Hey, we all have similar backgrounds.”   Naviere Walkewicz  14:17 Long Blue Navy Line, maybe? I'm not sure.   Jake DeRuyter  14:21 Yeah. He's like, “Hey, I know I could put trust in you because of your background, what you're all about.” and that's something that I really internalized and leading to my role now. It's like, “Hey, we'll give you the benefit of the doubt if you're a fellow grad,” right? Doesn't matter which Academy, you know? In particular, we're gonna favor the Air Force. But yeah, that's like, one thing I just really want to make a pillar of my life. Like I said earlier, it's like, hey, I want to help out fellow grads. Because if it wasn't for Keith and John taking a risk on me out of the blue, I wouldn't be where I am today.   Naviere Walkewicz  14:53 It seems like that's been a thread in your life. You know, finding a network and supporting and taking care of people, and then seeing that reciprocated to help continue to fuel what is important to you. Talk a little bit about what that transition was like, though, because it almost sounds too easy. I mean, has it been just rainbows since you kind of took that leap.   Jake DeRuyter  15:17 Oh, God, no. Year 1, any career field, especially, you know, a sales driven one, it's a challenge. You don't know what you're doing. You're fish out of water. I was going to a million different Air Force bases, walking on base, trying to meet people, not even knowing what I was doing, let alone convincing other people what we do. And so that was a challenge. I think I went to 19 different bases my first year; I was on a plane every chance I could get, just trying to make a name for myself and say, “Hey, I'm Jake DeRuyter, we can do anything help you. What do you need?” And people were always like, “Well, we don't need anything. Like, we want one specific thing. Can you do this?” And so you really kind of have to find yourself, because the Air Force, especially as an officer, you're leading a team, right? Or you're part of some overarching team. But in this role, when I started, it was me, myself and I. So that was just a huge lifestyle change. It was a little refreshing. That's like, “Hey, I don't have to worry about my cadets or my airmen outside of the job.” And this was a nice refresh. But like everything else, it's like, “Hey, I am the only one providing for my family, to pay the bills,” everything like that. Like, how hard am I going to work? And how am I going to put in the effort to grind day in and day out. Just getting good at any job, you can't just have one great day, just like working out. You can't just have one great day and expect to bench 500 pounds, right? It's the things that you do day in and day out and building up the right habits and having the right communication with people, and then just being relatable. One of the other biggest things: Say you're gonna do something and follow up and do it. We always joke that it's a weird that it's a skill to follow up with people and respond to them in a meaningful time. It shouldn't be, but that's just one of those things where people need help. We want to be the ones that are there. And it's just doing that over and over again. Because, man, that Year 1 was like, “Why did I pick this job? Why did I pick this career choice? I should have gone into consulting. I should have gotten started in literally anything else.” Thank God I stuck with it. It's, again, been one of the greatest decisions I've made, and we have an awesome team, but we've brought in a few other Academy grads with us as well, and it's been a lot of fun since.   Naviere Walkewicz  17:31 May I ask why you stuck with it when it and everything against in your core was, “Why did I do this? I could have picked anything else?” Why did you stay?   Jake DeRuyter  17:41 I really wanted to prove it to myself and really prove it to Keith and John. You know, they took the risk on me, so I didn't want to let them down. And I think that was the biggest thing, where it's like, “Hey, you guys took the risk on me out of the blue.” And I'm like— you know, Keith and I were classmates, you know, we were never close, right? Like, you know, we barely kept in touch over the years. And it's just like, “Hey, you stuck your name out.” Like, this is the real world, right? In the Air Force, if you want to do the full 20 years you can do 20 years, right? In the real world, it's “Hey, if you're not have a nice day.” You gotta find new employment. And so I was like, “I'm not gonna let you guys down. I'm gonna fight for this.” Being a small company, we're not a big name brand, right? No one knows who we are. So, it's a little bit that underdog mentality, and just like, “Hey, how am I gonna outhustle the next guy? How am I gonna outhustle XYZ company that's a competitor?” And it's just that competitive drive that I've just always had. I'm not playing sports every day anymore, but how do you still stay competitive and still stay active and still have that drive to be the best you can be, and go on and go forth?   Naviere Walkewicz  18:52 Well, it sounds like this competitive drive is something you said, it was something you've always had. Can you share a story from when you recall, when, gosh, even something, you know, back in early-Jake days that this is a moment I realized, “I'm a competitive person. I'm driven by this desire to prove myself.” Is there something that pops to mind? Because I can only just imagine if it was already part of your core when you kind of knew this about yourself?   Jake DeRuyter  19:18 Oh, yeah, I've got a good one. So, my dad was coaching with the Academy going into my junior year of high school, and his goal was always to get me all three years at one school, which we had at the time, we had never lived anywhere longer than three years in a row. So, that was a tough task. And I just finished up my junior year of playing football, and things were going good, and then he gets a job offer down in Texas, and he comes to me. He's like, “Hey, what do you think? I don't want to move you going into your senior year, but I want to talk to you first before, yeah, I make any decisions.” And I'm like, “Wait, I get the chance to play Texas high school football. Are you kidding me? Let's do this. I get one year for it. That's awesome.” So, yeah, that's the No. 1 story that comes to my mind where it's like, “Hey, I want to take the risk on myself and be competitive and go play the best of the best.”   Naviere Walkewicz  20:18 Play with the best of the best. And that does seem to be a theme, right? Air Force Academy, putting yourself out there, jumping in full feet into this new role. You know, what have you learned about yourself? You talked about motivating. It's different when you have people that you have to take care of, and I guess maybe your translation is your family you have to take care of. But how do you motivate yourself when it's a you, yourself and you — you said “me, myself, and I” and I couldn't think of the other way to say it. But when it's just you, what keeps you motivated?   Jake DeRuyter  20:52 Yeah, I'm definitely very externally motivated. So it's my team. When you want to talk about the Monday-through-Friday grind, and then my wife and, the overarching family, growing up, family has always been really close and a huge motivator for me. And, you know, I've just always wanted to be able to provide for others and provide for myself, and you never want to have to worry about that next meal, or the job, employment — things like that. And just saying, “Hey, you know, these opportunities you get there — don't take it for granted.” And it's like you've got to fight and earn everything. You're not just going to be handed out anything. And that's just something always back in my mind, where it's like, if I'm not doing it like somebody else is going to, I'm going to lose that opportunity, or someone's going to step in, right? And so it's just one thing where it's just being like the Academy grad, like you don't, we'll move up to the name brand. That's another huge thing I always have in my head. It's like, I want to represent the brand. Well, I'm like, “How do you do that?” Is because, like, we've all met those people. It's like, hey man, like, you know, like, shoot. Like, “I really like you, but like, I don't think you represent us. Well, I never want to be that type of person, right? And so that's one of those things I just really like the kitchen, going day in and day out.   Naviere Walkewicz  22:01 So the daily grind… You said, in the first year you think you visited like 19 bases just to try and figure it out. What does the daily grind look like now?   Jake DeRuyter  22:10 Completely changed, thankfully, I really only focus on three, which still has me plenty busy, but at least I'm not in all these crazy places, which is nice. Now it's weird because I set my own schedule. No one's ever asking, “Hey, you got to be here at 7:30 and clock out at 4:30.” It's a complete polar oppositie of the Air Force. Like, if I want to go golf every Friday at noon, no one's stopping me from doing that, except for, that'd probably be a detriment to my team and our success, right? And so it's this complete mindset change where it's like, “Hey, I'm going to still put in a full day's work and get everything I can out of the day.” But I'm not sitting down at my desk. So when I'm home, I'm following up with teams making sure everything is good internally at the company, and then a lot of the time I'm on the road. So, I go to Eglin Air Force Base a lot, Hill Air Force Base and Edwards. Those are my three where I'm constantly rotating through. So, if anyone's at those bases, please let me know. Love to reach out to you guys, grab a beer, dinner or anything. You know, it's a lot of lonely nights in the hotel. So, every chance I get to meet up with fellow grads, see what else is going on — I love taking advantage of that opportunity. I've done that numerous times, and that's one of my favorite things and one of my favorite parts of the job. So, I don't know what a standard day looks like for me. That's one thing I love about this job. And kind of why I stuck with it, so I'm never bored. No day is the same. You're always finding a new opportunity, someone new to talk to, some new base, a new program, that there's infinite possibilities. It's such a big Air Force and it gives me a chance to stay involved with our community, give back, and just, hey, if there's another grad out there that's looking to separate and needs a job, any grad — I've offered this plenty of times and stepped through it — any grad that's trying to separate, you have an instant interview at a minimum, with us right away. Please reach out anytime.   Naviere Walkewicz  24:03 That's amazing. I think you know you talk about there is no standard, but maybe you actually... the standard is that you hold yourself to a standard so that you're seeking opportunities when they're there, you're prepared, and you're trying to connect with other grads and make ways for them as well, or at least a potential opportunity. Let's talk about that, because I find— you know, you're a 2015 graduate, you're in your career trajectory, and you've made time to become the chapter president for the Central Texas chapter. And, you know, chapter services, that's when you bring grads together. I don't know how you manage that, as well as build a business. Let's talk about that. How did that even happen?   Jake DeRuyter  24:43 Yeah, so Mike Lambert started our chapter. He's a '70 grad, one of the coolest, most informative, just unique individuals. He is the greatest guy. Now, I wish I could live half the life that he has when I get to be his age. I reached out to him a couple years ago now saying, “Hey, the baseball team's in town playing UT, we have plans to all go to it, like, what's going on? Because I, this is bad on me... I didn't know that the chapter existed at the time. And he's like, “Oh shoot. I didn't know about it. Yeah, that sounds great. I'll send out a message, let's start rallying people to go as a big group.” I think we got maybe 20 to 30 people. It's a decent showing. And then after he's like, “Hey, I'm looking to pass this on to somebody. Would you be interested in it?” And I'm like, “Yeah, of course. I don't really know what it entails.” And then without me kind of having a say in it, everyone there is like, “Oh, hey, let's all have a vote right now. Raise your hand if you want Jake s the next president,” and Neil Wendt, Harry Keyes, a bunch of other grads were there all raising hands, like, “Hey, here's our new president.” So, yeah, I mean, I definitely wanted it, not like I didn't have a say in it, but yeah, it was nice having that little motivational push from everybody else. And then Neil Wendt, he's been my VP, and almost had a year going just now, so we still got a lot of work to do. We're still building a lot of things, but we're pretty proud of the steps that we've taken to kind of build this community. But yeah, it's definitely tough. You got work and then home life, and then family, and then you're just like, “Oh shoot, I still got to do this.” So, I mean, we all got a million things on a plate, so just like the Academy teaches you, how do you put 25 hours into a 24-hour day?   Naviere Walkewicz  26:18 Right? So I found that curious, what you'd mentioned. You said, “I didn't even know we had a chapter,” but you reached out to Mike Lambert. So did you already have a mentor-mentee relationship with him, or how did you know him?   Jake DeRuyter  26:29 No, I heard about it a little bit before that, because I kind of, in the back of my head, knew it existed. I just didn't know what all entailed. And it didn't say Austin. It just said to Central Texas. So, I didn't really know what all it meant. And then meeting with him and getting involved with him, and all in the whole group that he's started and been a part of for a long time. Yeah, it's really cool hearing their stories. And we do a monthly lunch every Friday or every first Friday of the month, and we get to hear all the cool war stories and everything. It's honestly one of the things I look forward to most every month is listening in to those guys. There's just so many funny connections all over the place. And, yeah, it's awesome. If anyone's listening in Austin, we'll be doing it again next week, or the first Friday this upcoming month of April.   Naviere Walkewicz  27:13 That's wonderful. So talk a little bit about what it's been like being the chapter president. You know, I think when we think about times at the Academy, you're leading a group of your peers, and obviously these peers are various years. But what has that been like, and what have you seen to be challenging so far?   Jake DeRuyter  27:29 Yeah, so it's completely different than on active duty, because you have positional power, right? And your airmen, the younger officers, they've got to listen to you, right? The chapter president sounds cool. Like, what authority do I have? Right? Absolutely nothing. It's just more of I'm the one coordinating and leading the charge, right? So you got to be the one to say what you're going to do and actually follow through and do it. And that's tough when you've got a million other competing priorities, and you're always trying to schedule your time and so I've been thankful I've had a great team. There's been times I can't make that monthly lunch and your others fill in. So we've had a pretty good core group there. But trying to find ways to motivate people to participate is extremely difficult unless they have like a direct buy in or impact or return on their investment. I think I saw in our last AOG election, we had like a 22% voting rate. And so we see that at the local chapters too, where it's tough finding people, so I'll go on LinkedIn, just trolling, just looking for anyone that says Air Force Academy grad, outside of any major city in Texas besides Austin. So, trying to get that direct touch. But it definitely takes time and effort and you've got to be willing to show that you're willing to go forth and put it in. Otherwise everyone's gonna be like, “Hey, I'm just getting another spam email. Why would I listen to this?”   Naviere Walkewicz  28:43 Right? And I just find it even more just impressive. What compelled you to reach out in the first place and say, “Hey, I'd like to get more involved?” Because you were already doing all these things through your job. So why the additional responsibility?   Jake DeRuyter  29:00 I think that's a great question. I think it's just because… You said: I was already doing it, and so I was like, “Hey, this is a natural fit for what I enjoy doing and what I could truly care about.” And as we've mentioned, all those grads in the past have helped me out and made me who I am today. You know from my dad and  my teachers, the officers that are ahead of me. It's like, “Hey, how do I give back?” Because I know I wouldn't be standing where I am without our fellow grads and then the whole overarching community. So it's like, “What little can I do to make one person's life that 1% better?” I'll take that chance any day of the week.   Naviere Walkewicz  29:33 Well, we talked about some of the challenges you've experienced and your deep desire to give back. So, share a success that you've had since being chapter president, and what's really kind of filled your bucket in this giving back piece.   Jake DeRuyter  29:44 Oh, so we did a watch party for the Air Force/Army game; that's pretty standard chapter president stuff like, “Oh, hey, you threw a watch party.” That's not the big thing. But the really cool part was the people that showed up. And I feel horrible. I forget his name right now, but the oldest living graduate, he had his daughter drive him because, “Hey, I'm not going to miss this.” And so I was like, whoa. Like, that was like...   Naviere Walkewicz  30:13 I'm going to look that up myself. That's amazing.   Jake DeRuyter  30:16 Having that moment like, “Wow, that's really cool.” Where it's like, “Hey, that wouldn't have happened without the work of my team  putting this together. And, yeah, putting together watch parties is nothing crazy. But it's still— hearing those stories and meeting those people that were there when this first started. Like, we were joking earlier: They don't even know what Founders Day is because they were there for it. That wasn't really a thing for them. Now it's like our annual celebration, but to them it's just like, “Oh yeah. We just started it.” Like, that's just how...   Naviere Walkewicz  30:48 ...on the shoulders of giants, right?   Jake DeRuyter  Yes.   Naviere Walkewicz  Jake, it just sounds like you had such an incredible ride so far. And I know you're you know your journey is in the midst of it, and I can't wait to hear how you'll continue to do so as a graduate, as we support you. But right now, I'd like to ask you some specific leadership lessons, the first one really pertaining to you: What do you do every day to be a better leader?   Jake DeRuyter  31:12 That reach out. Like, always that checking in. I don't necesarilly schedule it, but if I ever have 20 or 30, minutes, nothing's on my calendar for work, or things are slow, it's like, “Hey, who haven't I talked to in a while?” Whether it's one of my classmates, one of my freshmen, one of the people that served with me… And then I spend a lot of time on the road, so, I'm driving. I always try to reach out and call and reconnect with people that you haven't talked to in X amount of months. Because I always know that I really appreciate when I always hear from people like that. And so that's like one thing I always want to do is like, “Hey, what's going on in life? Where are you at now?” That's what's so cool about the Air Force community as a whole: People are moving, doing cool new jobs all over the place. So, I love getting to hear those stories and truly listening in. The leadership question: Actually listen. Take interest and don't just be waiting to say what you want to say next. Like, actually, like, “Oh, hey, there's some pretty cool stories out there. And people are doing some amazing, unique things.” Shoot, look at Wyatt Hendrickson this weekend. One of the greatest college sports upsets of all time.   Naviere Walkewicz  32:19 Of all time — 100%. I think that's a really great way— just even like rallying together and talking about that. I mean, what a great way to… “Hey, I haven't talked to you in a while. Did you see Wyatt? What he did? You know, it's just amazing.   Jake DeRuyter  32:32 Yep, exactly. Wyatt, if you're ever in Austin, drinks are on me, man, congrats.   Naviere Walkewicz  32:38 That's outstanding. All right, so tell me, then, Jake, what would you share as something that an aspiring leader can do every day? So, that's something you do personally. What might you share with an aspiring leader that they can do today that will reap benefits down the road?   Jake DeRuyter  32:53 Yeah, don't just worry about your own career and your own life, because whether you look at officers, coaches— a lot of people can be judged based on the people that they've built up rather than their own career. We see that all the time in coaching, and it's like, if you're truly worried about the development of the guys around you, you're going to build up yourself and your whole team and everybody and so make that the primary goal. Not just, “Hey, how do I get that next job? How do I get that next rank?” Because people are going to spot that as being phony really quick. So, be genuine, and pump up the other ones around you. Because a rising tide lifts all ships.   Naviere Walkewicz  33:27 Gosh. And like I said, you're kind of in this rise in your career and in your life. You know, if you were to look back and talk to your younger self, Jake, whether your cadet self or even your child self, is there any advice you would give yourself, knowing what you know today?   Jake DeRuyter  33:44 Yeah, the biggest thing is be more involved. I think especially as a cadet and in early officer life, I was just like, “How do I get through the day? What do I do to get through class, or to get through the SCIF life?” Or something like that. “How do I get to the part of life where I'm spending time with my friends, or having fun?” I definitely wish I was much more involved at the Academy and as a young lieutenant, like, I definitely took things for granted back then, and that's probably the biggest thing I changed, is like, “Hey, I definitely had the extra time.” I could have given back more at that time, and maybe I'm trying to make up for a little bit for that now.   Naviere Walkewicz  34:19 Well, I think it's never too late to start. And what are you doing now that fills your bucket in that way?   Jake DeRuyter  34:25 Oh, yeah, the biggest things, the AOG chapter presidency and helping other grads transition. I can't tell you how many fellow grads I've talked to as they're looking for SkillBridge, trying to figure out what that next step looks like. It doesn't stop. Everyone's hitting their five years coming up. It happens every year, right? So there's always that influx, especially those that aren't flying. It's tough making that jump. You know, it's a scary world out there. And I said, it's just you, yourself and I. Whatever the opposite of that is. It's like, “Hey, I know I didn't feel like I had the resources when I was initially getting out through traditional means of the Air Force.” So I want to be that person that's like, “Hey, I'll offer that olive branch anytime.” So yeah, love to help out wherever I can.   Naviere Walkewicz  35:13 Well, those connections are so important, and I think one of the things I really appreciate about you, Jake, is really recognizing that connection. I think you even shared with me a story, and maybe you can share it here, about how you still are in touch with your sponsor family?   Jake DeRuyter  35:26 Yeah. I went to high school in the Springs for a little bit, and the best man in my wedding, his family was the one that sponsored me. So, they had sponsored cadets for years, sponsoring the basketball team through the 2000s. Then in high school, he made me a bet. He's like, “Hey, you idiot, if there's any way that you get in, I'll sponsor.” He's like, “I'm done sponsoring cadets, but if you make it in, you'll be my last one.”   Naviere Walkewicz  And so you were the exception for him.   Jake DeRuyter  Yeah, I was the exception to the rule. So yeah, we still get together every year to go to the opening round of March Madness. So we just did Lexington, Kentucky, for those games, and then next year we'll be doing Tampa. So yeah, college sports and that competition that you talked about that's a huge center piece of my life, and I center all my travel and my fun around it. So yeah, they've been awesome, and a huge part of why I am or where I am today as well.   Naviere Walkewicz  36:11 I love that. Well, we're going to ask for Jake's final thoughts next, but before we do, I'd like to take a moment and thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. The podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio and is available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Be sure to stay in touch. Watch, subscribe and listen to all episodes of Long Blue Leadership at longblueleadership.org. All right, Jake, we're ready to hear your final thoughts. It's been incredible spending time with you today.   Jake DeRuyter  36:39 I appreciate it Naviere. Very humbled to be here. You just had Secretary Wilson. I'm sure you've had some astronauts and generals on here, so the fact that you picked me: I was just like, “Man, that really means a lot.” So I just want to say thank you. Yeah, I don't want to repeat myself too much, but yeah, any fellow grads, if you're ever in the Austin area, love to meet up, grab a beer, whatever we can do to help each other out. Just whatever we can do to give back to the Long Blue Line.   Naviere Walkewicz  37:03 Well, thank you for never being too busy for our graduates. I think that was one of the things that really stood out to me throughout everything you've shared, is you know, you care about people, and it's really translated to how you care about our fellow graduates, and I can't wait to see all the amazing things you'll continue to do. So thanks for being a leader in our Long Blue Line.   Jake DeRuyter  37:22 Yeah, I appreciate that, Naviere. Thank you so much.   Naviere Walkewicz  37:25 Well, Jake, one more time, thank you again, and I'm Naviere Walkewicz, thank you for joining us on Long Blue Leadership until next time.   KEWORDS Resilience, Adaptability, Mentorship, Network, Long Blue Line, Leadership, Development, Career Transition, Service, Community Support, Grit, Connections, Risk-Taking, Personal Growth, Military to Civilian Transition, Air Force Academy, Leadership Philosophy, Professional Networking, Continuous Learning, Relationship Building, Giving Back   The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation    

new Ricky Warwick plus Manowar, XYZ, Shark Island, Raging Slab and more! 

As a property manager, you're familiar with the uncomfortable shuffle when trying to ensure utilities are set up correctly at move-in. What if you could make the whole process easier? In this episode of the Property Management Growth Show, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with the founder of Utility Profit, Zac Maurais, to discuss wires, pipes, and signals: Everything you wish you knew about home utilities. You'll Learn [01:48] How Zac Built a $100 Million Business [07:38] Solving Utility Challenges with a Streamlined Tool [15:54] Using Utility Profit to Make Extra Profit [23:26] Integrations and Frequently Asked Questions [30:20] Take Action on The Things You're Avoiding! Quotables “I think the secret to being smart is just being willing to look stupid.” “Done is better than perfect.” “Have a bias for action. Get your hands dirty. Do it yourself.” “ Whatever it is that you think that's holding you back, just start trying to do it.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Zac: It's almost like we're like taking the Yellow Pages and then putting it online or something. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a wacky problem that we're solving there.  [00:00:08] Jason: So you're single handedly bringing the utility space into the future. So, All right. [00:00:16] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Property Managers to the Property Management Growth Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur and you want to add doors, you want to make a difference, you want to increase revenue, you want to help others, you want to impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager and you just don't know it. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. [00:00:47] Jason: You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. [00:01:13] Jason: I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show and I'm hanging out today with Zac Maurais. Did I say it right?  [00:01:25] Jason: That's right, yes.  [00:01:26] Jason: Hey. All right, cool. It's great to have you on the show. So Zac we're going to be chatting today about wires, pipes, and signals, everything you wish you knew about home utilities. [00:01:38] Jason: I think this will be interesting to our listeners because, you know, we get into this stuff as property management people. So, so Zac before we get into that though, give us a little backstory on you. How'd you get into being an entrepreneur? When did you first figure that out, that you maybe were one and then we can get into why you started this business so that you've got going and tell us, tell everybody about it. [00:01:58] Jason: Cool.  [00:02:00] Zac: Let's do it. Yeah. So, quick intro myself, I live here in Austin, Texas. I've been an entrepreneur now for better part of a decade and a half. Right out of college I started a business it was actually a food delivery business called Favor. We ended up scaling that business to having 50,000 delivery drivers in the state of Texas. [00:02:22] Zac: So it was the second largest employer in the state. And over the course of building it up over a couple of years, we were doing over a hundred million dollars of food sales a year. So sizable company and we sold that to HEB grocery and yeah.  [00:02:38] Jason: And if people don't know, HEB I'm in the Austin area, I'm up in Round Rock. [00:02:41] Jason: But if people don't know HEB. HEB consistently wins the best grocery store awards like in America every year. Like it's always winning.  [00:02:51] Zac: It's kind of amazing. I mean, they are an institution. There's so many small towns across Texas where the only show in town, I would kind of say it's akin to like a Walmart or something like that for a national brand that people would be more familiar with. [00:03:04] Zac: Family run business, been around for a hundred years. So it's cool that it had joined forces with Favor. And learned a lot from doing that company. I mean, at the time that we sold it, we had over 140 corporate employees, designers and software engineers and business intelligence people and salespeople. [00:03:24] Zac: So I'm right there with you, Jason, where I like growth. I like growing things and learning about business and learning about new categories. So as I sold it, I was looking for the next thing to do.  [00:03:35] Jason: So people are clear, Favor, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but Favor competes with like Instacart and like some of these, it's like a delivery service. [00:03:44] Zac: That's right. So the way that the service worked was, it was like an on demand. It was part of the on demand delivery kind of thing that was happening. The gig economy, you know, people will probably remember Lyft coming out and Uber. There wasn't one for delivery of kind of like fast casual food or groceries yet. [00:04:02] Zac: And we brought that into the market. We had first mover.  [00:04:05] Jason: Oh yeah. So yeah, it's kind of like Uber Eats and, you know, these kind of things.  [00:04:08] Zac: Exactly. So you could tap a button, request a Favor, and then someone would go shopping for you, go pick up some tacos or yeah, run at the grocery store or something like that and bring it to you in 45 minutes or less. [00:04:20] Jason: Got it. And is Favor just a Texas thing?  [00:04:23] Zac: At one point in time we tried to go national expansion, but it was a bit of a wartime thing that was going on. Yeah. A lot of VC dollars getting put in. And we had a very strong Texas brand. We had over a million people in Texas using it. [00:04:37] Zac: Yes. So we said we just doubled down on home base.  [00:04:40] Jason: I mean, Texas is like its own little universe. We've got Favor, we've got HEB, we've got, you know, there's all these things that are just specifically Texas. So if y'all come to Texas, you got to like experience the whole Texas deal. You got to go to an HEB, you got to go to Bucky's, you got to go to all these things, right? [00:04:56] Zac: So yeah, right. When you're here in town for Jason's event, go get yourself some Yeti swag.  [00:05:02] Jason: Yes.  [00:05:02] Zac: And then order yourself a Favor.  [00:05:04] Jason: Yes. There you go. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, and people get really religious about their, you know, things like Yeti. It's like Yeti Mecca. Like people, like my brother-in-law comes into town. He is like, "I got to go to the Yeti store." He's like, just like starry-eyed in there. And I'm like, "why? Why?" Coolers, thermases? I don't know. Cool drinks. Yeah. Yeah. It's a thing. So he like collects them, and then sometimes he's flipping them too. Like there's limited edition things, so. My brother-in-law's name is Jason also, so he might listen to this. [00:05:36] Jason: So Jason, I mentioned you on my podcast, so, all right.  [00:05:39] Jason: Shout out to Jason.  [00:05:41] Jason: Shout out to Jason. So, cool. So Zac, I mean, that's a pretty impressive thing. Not many people can say they built a hundred million dollar, you know, business or had an exit or something like that. So, and then what did you do next? [00:05:55] Jason: Like, you sell this thing, did you lose all meaning and purpose in life and decide to start a new business or what happened?  [00:06:01] Zac: I think that happens with some people, right? You sell it, you have somebody, you're like, "what am I going to do with my life now?" I'm going to take a good thing and somehow it becomes a bad thing. [00:06:09] Zac: But I just, I really like building. And I like the process of entrepreneurship where you talk to people, you try to find a problem and you like go hit a whiteboard, you sketch, it becomes more tangible, and then all of a sudden you can partner with an engineer and make it and then bring it back to the customer. [00:06:26] Zac: And I just like that. It kind of just scratches something in my brain, I think. And something else that's been cool for me on my entrepreneurship journey. I had mentioned that I've been doing it now for a decade and a half and the entire time that I've been working and doing startups, I've been doing it with like my best friend Ben from growing up together. [00:06:45] Zac: We  [00:06:46] Jason: best friend Ben.  [00:06:46] Zac: wen to school in New Hampshire. And it's fun to be able to go on that journey with someone like that.  [00:06:52] Jason: Yeah. That's cool. So you and Ben are still doing stuff together then.  [00:06:55] Zac: Right.  [00:06:56] Jason: Yeah. Third company.  [00:06:57] Zac: Third company now, so.  [00:06:59] Jason: Yeah. Dynamic duo. All right. And so I imagine that you have some complimentary sort of skill sets and challenge each other a bit. [00:07:08] Zac: Yeah, I think our brains have kind of been swapped and became more of the same brain. But the way that I explained it originally was like Ben was the left brain engineer, right? He is going to build out the backend database. He was a civil engineer, so he was just constantly doing math. And then I was more of the, you can kind of see there's some paintings behind me, like I was the artist.  [00:07:30] Jason: The right brain guy. Yeah. Got it.  [00:07:32] Zac: But now it just kind of became one, somewhere between now. He kind of went a little bit more right. I went more left, so.  [00:07:38] Jason: Cool. So bring us up towards the present day. So like, what are you and Ben, you know, getting together and working on? [00:07:45] Zac: Yeah, so I guess the way that we got into the property management industry was we were trying to build some leasing automation tech over the last few years. We had something called Sunroom Leasing, and it was like a platform that would help. With self showings, with different things related to collecting some data from renters about the home. [00:08:05] Zac: We had at one point in time, around 8,000 homes that were leasing across the country for some real estate investment trusts and some large scale property managers. And it kind of turned us on to this like, it had some challenges I think of that scale. And so we ended up realizing that's not what we want to do long term. [00:08:26] Zac: And something that it was like a good ride, but I think we were onto something that could be more scalable and a more acute problem to solve.  [00:08:35] Jason: Yeah, this was like a tuition business. You're learning and paying the price of tuition. Yeah. So you got familiar with the property management industry a bit through that. [00:08:44] Jason: That's right. Figured out kind of your target audience and you probably started to see some different problems you like started scheming with your whiteboard on, so.  [00:08:52] Zac: Yeah, and the problem that we zoomed into was around utility setup. And what we thought was kind of a silly thing was, here it is, it's 2024. [00:09:01] Zac: This was last year that we had launched it. We realized that there wasn't like a Google Maps of utilities. We thought it was silly that you couldn't just type in an address online and then see what's the water, what's the electric, what's the gas, what's the internet? There was no transparency for that. [00:09:20] Zac: And when we looked closer, there's like, you zoom in on water, there's over 20,000 water providers and they have really weird setups, you know, or it could be down just by the neighborhood or the zip code or the, you know, it's just wacky the way that the mapping works. And we thought if we could build out the whole mapping infrastructure, that would be a valuable thing, both for owners of the property that just want to have a more streamlined process, property managers that are doing it every day, and then renters. If you kind of think of this problem of setting up utilities while it's annoying and they have to Google around and make a bunch of phone calls, this is just one problem within a whole, you know, iceberg of other things. It's just the tip, small thing that they're doing a ton of things related to the move. We thought that if we could streamline this, then it could have a broad appeal and be something that we could do nationally and do at a big scale. So, over the last year, what we've done is we've built out that infrastructure to be able to do mapping at scale. [00:10:21] Zac: And we have built a platform that streamlines the process of turning on utilities. We're trying to make the utility on switch and it's a cool tool because the property managers using it can get confirmation that utilities have been set up correctly. And this is helpful for them because, you know, if you don't turn on the electricity and it's the dead of winter, you're probably going to have some problems on your hands with pipes bursting, you know, and things like that. [00:10:48] Zac: So, it's a useful tool in the process.  [00:10:51] Jason: So let's talk about this problem, right? This is super annoying. Like everybody that's moved has had to figure out this weird, you know, puzzle to like, which utility providers are available here? Which internet provider can I use? What are my options? Can I get this cool fiber, you know, thing, can I get this? Is there..? Like what's available? Then they're trying to figure out like water, electric. You're maybe trying to find out from the previous owner or somebody and you're trying to like negotiate all this and then like getting things switched and then the timelines like it's a mess. [00:11:25] Jason: Like it's really annoying and yeah, it's like why do we just deal with this and put up with this? We're living in the age of AI and this AI revolution now and. Why isn't there a better solution to this? It seems like it's just like chaos and confusion. Yeah, so.  [00:11:45] Zac: It is chaos and confusion. Yeah. And people waste so much time doing it and oh god. [00:11:50] Zac: Yeah. And I think as a result, like sometimes people will just make sacrifices where they'll be like, well, I was on this telecom company before. Maybe I'll just go back to them. And then I might miss out on being able to be like, well, I could have had faster internet or a better plan that's cheaper or something If they had just...  [00:12:07] Jason: sure. Yeah.  [00:12:07] Zac: ...known that they had options.  [00:12:10] Jason: Right. You're like, man, I'm still using dial up. And I didn't realize Google Fiber was available here. Yeah, right.  [00:12:15] Zac: Throwing that in an old AOL like.  [00:12:18] Jason: Yes, I remember those days. I was such a nerd. Alright, so yeah, and people may maybe get impatient and they just make some quick decisions. [00:12:27] Jason: You know, and all these companies try to give them incentives like, Hey, if you move, like we'll move it and help you get it set up. And they try to make it seamless, but because they're trying to retain their, you know, the customer, but that might not be in the best interest of the customer.  [00:12:41] Zac: Totally. Yeah. So this we're in the spirit of trying to add transparency into the process, make it more streamlined. And and have a really lightweight tool like, you know, not another app you have to download, but just something that seamlessly fits in the move in process. Okay. [00:12:55] Zac: Integrates really well with the tools that the property manager is already using, you know, just is able to sync, in real time, figure out what are the addresses coming up, and then give the property manager a way to both communicate what the utilities are and then check that they've been turned on. [00:13:16] Zac: And then interestingly, there's a lot of places in the US where these telecom companies are competing. And they spent a lot of money to lay down these fiber optic lines, you know, or copper lines, and they're trying to recoup some of that cost. Yeah. And so they'll pay money for more customers. [00:13:35] Zac: And so we're able to generate revenue and then share that with property managers as an incentive to use the tool.  [00:13:43] Jason: Okay, cool. So what's the name of the tool or this service?  [00:13:46] Zac: It's called Utility Profit.  [00:13:48] Jason: Utility profit. Okay. All right. And it's P-R-O-F-I-T I would assume? Yep, exactly. Not like you're prophesying. [00:13:57] Jason: All right, got it. So Utility Profit, and so this really is solving that challenge to just streamline all that, and there's a financial incentive or benefit for the property manager helping to get these things connected.  [00:14:11] Zac: That's right. That's right. Yeah. And one of the...  [00:14:14] Jason: Win, win, win all the way around win. [00:14:15] Zac: Yeah, exactly. And that's the best type of tool. You know, something that it doesn't just benefit one party, but all the people involved. Yeah. And so, you know, it's exciting there. Now there's people across the entire United States using it. We've been helping thousands of renters per month. [00:14:32] Zac: Just in the last year there's been, I think over 750 property managers using it. Some really big ones with thousands of properties all the way down to people that just have a couple homes in the portfolio. I think the average has about 400 homes and, you know, it's really kind of empowering that we bring something to the world and that fast that many people are using it. [00:14:55] Zac: It's cool to see.  [00:14:56] Jason: Yeah. Cool. So. And Ben's leading the nerds on the team making this all work.  [00:15:02] Zac: Yeah, we're both working closely with engineers and, I mean, it's been a big lift. I mean, we've had to do all sorts of wacky things to be able to like get this data because like I said, it didn't exist. [00:15:12] Zac: I imagine. [00:15:13] Zac: We have to like literally go and draw service maps, you know, that were PDFs on old websites and then, you know, turn them into a structured database. Right. I, you know, pull it up correctly. Yeah.  [00:15:26] Jason: You're just doing this ground level legwork to like get... it's almost like you're transferring old records into a digital format. [00:15:35] Jason: You know? Yeah. So that people could play their MP3s or something. Yeah.  [00:15:38] Zac: It kind of feels like that. It's almost like we're like taking the Yellow Pages and then putting it online or something. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a wacky problem that we're solving there.  [00:15:48] Jason: So you're single handedly bringing the utility space into the future, so.  [00:15:54] Zac: Yeah. And one thing that we've we've been doing over the last couple months that I think is pretty cool is that there's this whole industry that exists for the multifamily apartment space related to what they call as like fiber as an amenity or fiber to the home. [00:16:11] Zac: Yeah. And so the way it would work on multifamily would be, you know, these big telecoms would say, "Hey, we'll sell you a thousand units of internet and then we'll give you a discount for doing so. And then you can either kind of keep that for yourself or you can, you know, share that with your tenants as a way to help your apartments stand out from other apartments." [00:16:33] Zac: The apartments are i identifiable and also you know, easier for the telecoms to spot. The hard thing about homes is it's this long tail of properties and there hasn't been a good way to aggregate them. I think over the last few years there's been some, you know, real estate investment trusts that have got to scale. [00:16:54] Zac: And so it kind of got these telecom companies thinking, "Hey, maybe I should go you know, sell into this market, see if we can apply the same principles of this program from apartments to single family." But it hasn't yet been done at any sort of significant scale. It's kind of a new concept. Now that we have hundreds of thousands of homes, that we are effectively the on switch for, we're helping to source these deals. [00:17:20] Zac: And we're able to bring, you know, significant discount from retail pricing to property managers and consumers. So we we're adding that as a new program that we're doing. We're calling it like Fiber Ready Homes. So it's a cool thing because we can help property managers identify what portion of their portfolio has the underlying technology at the home to have, you know, hyper fast internet speeds. [00:17:47] Zac: Yeah. And then do all of the enrollment process and the billing process to be able to offer a program like this. And and it's pretty gnarly. Like the average property manager that will turn on this program can make tens of thousands of dollars a year. It's roughly $10 per month per door. [00:18:04] Zac: So if you're a 300 door property manager, this is about $18,000. 18,000 per year that you'd be able to generate. And just, you know, kind of free cash flows for enabling something that the renters want.  [00:18:18] Jason: Right. Just making more money and yeah, I mean, high speed internet also being able to bring that to your units. [00:18:26] Jason: It creates a bigger incentive for people to rent it. I mean, it's definitely something I research before I buy a home or move anywhere. I'm always like, what Internet's available there because my life is going to be happening through this. And a lot of more people working from home, especially since Covid. [00:18:41] Zac: True. Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I think a lot of renters see internet more important than running water in some ways. I mean, it's like everyone's on Netflix and doing work from home calls. You know, it's just, it's super important for renters.  [00:18:55] Jason: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's interesting. And it sucks though when you like if you rent somewhere and that you only have one option and it's not the option that you really want in that area because sometimes they've negotiated like, oh, it's Comcast cable or something like this, and it's low speed or whatever. [00:19:11] Zac: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Sometimes you're kind of limited by what lines have been laid, and sometimes there's limited options, but it's cool because now we have these two programs. We have one, which is that one I just explained, and then we have a second one. We call it like a marketplace. So it'll truly show you everything that's available, every single company, every single speed all the details of it and help to facilitate just being able to turn it on a lot easier. [00:19:34] Jason: Got it. How does this work? Like a property manager gets set up in your system, they've got their properties, you know, in this, and then they can figure out the tenants when they're onboarding a new tenant, they're like, "Hey, before we give you keys and move you in, we want to make sure utilities are getting moved over." [00:19:49] Jason: So you help streamline this?  [00:19:51] Zac: That's right. Yeah. So it will connect seamlessly with property managers, property management software. Pull in the active listings that they have, and then it will have triggers around the move in date. So once someone's been approved and you have a move in date that's approaching. [00:20:08] Zac: It will send reminders and say, Hey, you know, you're moving in end of the month, like before you move in, please show that you've turned the electric on so that there's not going to be bill back problems and things like that.  [00:20:20] Zac: So, it handles the communication and then what's pretty cool about the tool too, is it's all white labeled. Utility Profit, it's not, you know, like a tenant friendly name, you know? Yeah. It's really for the property manager. And so, okay. We're just helping to facilitate these things. So it's got the property manager's logo, you know, we're more just the underlying technology, which I think is good because like a renter in the process doesn't want to get handed off to another third party. [00:20:48] Zac: They just want to... [00:20:49] Jason: yeah, "Who are these guys? Why should I trust them? I trust you. I'm working with you," but yeah. Got it. No, I think that's really smart. And so your business model then, your growth strategy really is to leverage and support the property managers.  [00:21:02] Zac: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We're trying to partner with all the property managers in the single family rental space. [00:21:08] Zac: And you know, last I checked, you know, there's at least five to 10 million homes that are managed by third party property managers. And we want to become the main place where where people used to turn on utilities. And you know, we talked about entrepreneurs and having a big vision earlier in the call. [00:21:26] Zac: You know, I think we're solving an important problem by building this Google Maps of Utilities and also just making a better experience. I think anytime we start a business though, you're kind of thinking about like, okay, "Well if I'm able to pull this off, how could this even be even more significant long term?" [00:21:42] Zac: And one of the things that I've been just thinking about as I've been doing it is you know, today we are helping to connect the dots between these things, but I bet in the not too distant future, maybe a few years out, we'll be responsible for millions of homes in helping to turn on these utilities. [00:21:59] Jason: Yeah.  [00:22:00] Zac: We'll probably want to go down the stack of utilities, you know, instead of just directing you to be going to, you know, XYZ local power source. Maybe they get directed to a company that, similar to how we're able to get discounts on internet because we have so much scale, we could buy energy contracts in deregulated markets and, you know,  [00:22:22] Jason: okay. [00:22:22] Zac: Inch down becoming a utility.  [00:22:24] Zac: Okay.  [00:22:24] Zac: And so, I think it's a, it's an interesting thing.  [00:22:27] Jason: So you're saying maybe there's a potential the property manager could be the utility?  [00:22:32] Zac: We'll be able to help the property manager earn more money... [00:22:35] Zac: yeah. [00:22:35] Zac: ...on this process because we...  [00:22:38] Zac: just more margin [00:22:38] Zac: ...want to direct them to like a utility that we own. And we're able to help them monetize these other things like natural gas and electricity.  [00:22:49] Jason: Got it. Love it. Yeah. You're passing the benefit onto the property manager. So, yeah. That gives them quite an incentive to help you grow this. [00:22:55] Jason: Right. So I love it. So, I mean, this really gives property managers a strong competitive advantage over self-management then. [00:23:03] Zac: Yeah, I think so. You know, I think property managers, they have so many things that they're doing and this is one of those set it and forget it types of tools. You know, it's not something you have to have mastery over and like learn another thing, this is like you get on, you set the thing up, you get the logo added and get it synced to your PM software and then you're done with it and it just kind of is happening in the background and then just notifies you. [00:23:26] Jason: Got it. So the setup is pretty easy and then it makes it a lot easier for the property management team to make sure utilities are getting set up correctly. There's visibility into seeing what's been set up and what hasn't, it sounds like. And you mentioned integrations with property management software, and I know everybody listening's like, "but what about my software? The one I'm using?" Yeah. So what integrations do you guys have set up already?  [00:23:49] Zac: It's all the major ones. So what we find is like AppFolio is popular. Rentvine is becoming more and more popular. You know, Propertyware is another one. Buildium's one that we you know, have in the works too, but yeah, I think most people... [00:24:04] Zac: Rent manager? [00:24:05] Zac: Rent manager, yeah. That's one that we work with too. Yeah. I know there's a lot of options for property managers there, but yeah. [00:24:11] Jason: Very cool. Yeah. So everybody listening there. There you go. So they're like, "oh, he mentioned mine. I'm okay."  [00:24:17] Zac: Yeah, that's right. Yeah it's cool that it, you know, just works in a broad way like that. And it's kind of interesting too that the tool even is able to work you know, even if you don't even have a property management software to figure out some ways to you know, even work in that use case. [00:24:32] Jason: Sure.  [00:24:32] Zac: But most people have software.  [00:24:34] Jason: So as long as you can get the properties like into your system, then...?  [00:24:38] Jason: That's right.  [00:24:38] Jason: Got it. Okay, cool. But if they have those then and you have that connection, then it's, yeah, it'll just streamline things. Makes it even more turnkey.  [00:24:47] Zac: That's right.  [00:24:48] Jason: Got it. Cool. So, all right, so you, what else should people know about this? [00:24:52] Jason: Like what are the big questions property managers have been asking you?  [00:24:55] Zac: I think one question is, you know, how much money I earn from this? You know? Okay.  [00:24:59] Jason: They like, they want to know about the money. Let's talk about the money.  [00:25:03] Zac: So the average property manager will, it's a range of 25 to $40 per move that, that happens. [00:25:10] Zac: It ends up being about 25 to, to $30 on average is what we're seeing across the country. And so I think it's one of those things where it's like nice gravy. What we find is that the average property manager, they're like, "this is nice. I can make some extra money from it." But I think it's like, you know, not enough to go, you know, it just adds to the bottom line a little bit. [00:25:32] Zac: Every little thing. Sure. So the main reason why people use it is the time savings, you know? Absolutely. It's just one last thing to have to worry about. So that's that's what we're seeing as we talk to people.  [00:25:44] Jason: Yeah. Yeah, because I mean, just the amount of time you're paying a team member, if they're like 25 to $35 an hour, for example you know, they might be spending an hour or two here or there just calling, trying to negotiate back and forth with the tenant, get these things set up so. [00:25:59] Zac: Property management some days feels like death by a thousand mosquitoes.  [00:26:04] Jason: Oh yeah. I often joke it's, it can be death by a thousand cuts or it can be a really well oiled systemizable machine, but yeah. [00:26:12] Jason: Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, it offsets a little bit at the move in cost and then just the time savings. You're not having to pay your team to do all this communication. And you know, speed in onboarding is a real challenge for a lot of companies that are really in a high growth sort of state. [00:26:28] Jason: Like small companies might have a hard time just onboarding 10 units in a month, you know? Yeah. And larger companies, it can be pretty hairy if things aren't well dialed in.  [00:26:36] Zac: Yeah, I think that's a good point. It's all about having the systems in place. So that they scale.  [00:26:40] Jason: Very cool. [00:26:41] Jason: Well, is there anything else you think people should know about utility profit? And then we can get into like, how can they connect and get something like this going?  [00:26:50] Zac: Yeah. So the website's, utilityprofit.com.  [00:26:53] Jason: Okay.  [00:26:53] Zac: And it has some more information about how it works and has has some videos of the actual product. [00:26:59] Zac: You can see what it looks like from the renter's perspective, from your perspective and the dashboard that gives transparency. And and it kind of just walks you through everything about the product. And then there's a way on the website to be able to either book a demo if you have any questions about how something works. [00:27:17] Zac: And then, what we do is we'll just help you do like an onboarding call where we have people connect their PM software, upload a logo, invite their team members, really simple, straightforward process and then and then it's kind of good to go. So it's very streamlined thing. People typically will do it and it'll be live same day. [00:27:38] Zac: It's not like some big heavy lift or something. You just kind of go through this 15 minute process. We help you get it all synced up and then it's good to go.  [00:27:45] Jason: So, there's competition out there, right? Like this is a new thing in the space, but previously there's all these companies that try to, you know, negotiate and be able to pull in money and by being the person that gets people on a certain internet service or gets people and they get these kickbacks from the companies and that's how they make their money. [00:28:03] Jason: How do you feel like utility profits sort of stands out from those and I mean, my guess is you have the database, you have the data, like your ability to streamline. You're not having to go and start doing research and that you're just much faster.  [00:28:17] Zac: Yeah, I think that's exactly it. So there's been this whole category over the last couple years that's called a home concierge. [00:28:25] Zac: Yeah. And it's historically been like a call center model. Yeah. Where a rep will get the address and they'll, on your behalf, Google around, make some calls, you know, go try to set things up. And I think that was a helpful first step, and it seems like the natural thing that, that the industry would've been doing. [00:28:43] Zac: But this is just the natural progression of it, you know, building that database out, making it something that is like, you know, a true streamlined tool for everybody. And and just digitizing it a lot more.  [00:28:57] Jason: This is the future. This is the future. It's the next step. You're going to be a sponsor at DoorGrow Live. [00:29:02] Jason: So make sure, you know, everybody come to DoorGrow Live this year. Our theme this year is innovating the future of property management. And so we're going to be sharing innovative stuff. Innovative new models of pricing, not doing it the same way everybody else has been doing it, like percentage or flat fee. There's a lot of innovation and that's our goal at DoorGrow. We're always trying to figure out what are the most innovative stuff? We've got AI maintenance coordinators, we've got all sorts of stuff that are going to be showcased at this event. So if you don't want to be behind the times and have your lunch eaten by competitors and startups that are savvier and more focused on the future, make sure you come to DoorGrow Live. You're going to want to be there because the people that are at DoorGrow Live are going to be the ones that are getting a head start on these really effective cost, saving new tools, these ideas, they're going to help you have more profit in your business. [00:29:54] Jason: And so, Zac, we appreciate you being a sponsor. We're excited to showcase you and some other tools at our event, so.  [00:30:00] Zac: It's going to be fun. It'll be here right around the corner, so. [00:30:03] Jason: Check it out at doorgrowlive.com, and make sure you get your tickets. And we're going to be talking a little bit more in the future, probably on our podcast here. And just online about some of the cool things that you will get or learn if you come to DoorGrow Live this year in May at the Kalahari Resort in Round Rock, Texas. [00:30:20] Jason: So, cool. Well, Zac, is there anything else you want to share before you go? Parting word of wisdom for entrepreneurs out there that haven't had a hundred million dollar exits and built big giant things and they're just struggling to build their little machine, what would you say to them?  [00:30:36] Zac: I would just say like, whatever it is that you think that's holding you back, just start trying to do it. [00:30:43] Zac: You know? I think a lot of times you build up whatever it is in your head. And you think, "well, I would do it if I had this. Or what if I have to hire this person? Or, you know, I need to have this figured out, or I don't know how this works. Like I'm going to just say no to it." I would just say, just start doing it. [00:31:02] Zac: It doesn't have to be perfect to start. And the more you just take that first step it will become more clear and sometimes, it's harder to see the next 10 steps in front of you, but it's pretty easy to take that first step. So I'd say, have a bias for action. Get your hands dirty. Do it yourself. You have mentioned a lot of these things about AI and how the best companies are using ai. [00:31:25] Zac: We're really leaning into that as an organization. It doesn't matter what people's role is, we're saying. You know, download, ChatGPT three and talk to it. Ask it questions like, you know, there's so many cool resources today. It's the best time to figure things out and do things and and take that first step. [00:31:44] Jason: Yeah. GPT 4.5, we're getting clues of that's dropping and going to be out for everybody soon. And then Grok 3, I've been really geeking out on Grok 3, so it's pretty next level, so, but yeah. Cool. I love the idea. Done is better than perfect. I love the idea of rapid iteration. You know, so many times for those of you that are in the earlier stages of entrepreneurs listening to this, this is great advice because I've seen inside a lot of businesses, a lot of small businesses, and one of the biggest mistakes a lot of them make is they try to make everything perfect before they ship it, before they launch it. "I want to get all my processes dialed in," and they're trying to solve problems they don't even have yet. [00:32:20] Jason: They're trying to solve future problems instead of their current problem. And so rapid iteration really is the secret to growing a business quickly because you learn very fast what does and doesn't work. Just start trying shit. Just do it. Break stuff and you're going to learn way faster and everything's figureoutable, so.  [00:32:39] Zac: Yeah. And in that spirit, it doesn't matter what the thing is, you can always get feedback from it, even if it's not totally built yet, like it can be on a napkin, you know, or it could be the next level of that. But go build the thing in whatever low fidelity way. Yeah. [00:32:55] Zac: And then go talk to your customers about it. And this is going to have different applications for different types of business. because you're going to talk about different things. But you know, maybe you have a new program that you're thinking property owners might want to see, like get their feedback on it. [00:33:10] Zac: Or maybe you want to launch a new website or a new logo or whatever it is. I would just say, it doesn't have to be perfect, bring it but you have to get feedback on it. So definitely go and partner with who it is that is going to see it, and then just talk to them about it and say, "Well, how could this be better? What is this missing? What would be the next thing to do? If you could do anything with this, what would you do?" And, you know, people love to share advice. I mean, I think that's the other thing. Yeah. It's like over the last couple years since I've been doing entrepreneurship, I've been kind of amazed at how many people have been willing to share their time and their advice. [00:33:46] Zac: Yeah. And especially if you get an intro to someone from something. Yeah. You know, I think there's this huge thing of maybe you're afraid to ask for that intro or, you know, have that conversation because it's not perfect yet. I would say, you know, find the ideal person that you want to talk to and then figure out how to work backwards and how to get an intro to them and then have that conversation. [00:34:08] Zac: You know, I think you have to be vulnerable in it because you are going to come across dumb sometimes. You know, people are going to say like, "how did you not know this? Everyone knows this," but like, just lose your ego in that. Be okay with not being okay. And then you're going to feel a lot better because on the other side of it, you're going to learn so much. [00:34:27] Jason: Yeah, I think the secret to being smart is just being willing to look stupid. So, I mean, for sure. Ask the dumb question that you're afraid to ask because you're going to learn way faster. And I really think proximity is power. Like just another reason people should come to DoorGrow Live is I think we attract the most growth oriented property management, business owners in the industry and just being in proximity to all these sort of change makers and people trying new stuff and people experimenting, people willing to invest in themselves and to pay like coaches, like DoorGrow. And then I use all my clients as a mass rapid iteration sort of project. [00:35:05] Jason: Like we're always figuring out more and more stuff and I'm gathering these ideas and so we've got systems in place to just allow us to innovate in this industry a lot faster. And so we're really excited about bringing these kind of things to DoorGrow Live and showcasing it. [00:35:19] Jason: So if you're not part of our program, you're not one of our clients. Come check out the magic at DoorGrow Live. Connect with some of the people there and you might realize you found a home, so yeah, your family might be there. So yeah, entrepreneurs we're different breed of people. We, you know, we take risks, we're willing to try new things, and we're not focused primarily on safety and security. [00:35:39] Jason: We're focused more on fulfillment and freedom and contribution. And so this natural offshoot, entrepreneurs are the most helpful people, especially the healthy ones. When you're in a healthy growth-minded state, you want to benefit and help everybody. You're not gatekeeping information like people are sharing stuff and so yeah, I found the same thing to be true in the high level masterminds, coaches that I work with. [00:36:00] Jason: Like just being around the people in these programs has been probably the biggest benefit more than even learning from the guru or whoever that is sharing stuff sometimes. And so, yeah, proximity.  [00:36:11] Zac: Yeah, I think that's well said. You kind of become an average of the people that you spend most time with. [00:36:15] Zac: So if you're around, you know, someone who's going to be pessimistic about everything, then chances are, not going to try things as much. I mean, that, that was like one of the reasons why I had originally moved from, you know, where I was growing up in New Hampshire. I remember when I was pitching Favor when I was 20 something people were like, "ah, no one's going to pay five bucks for something like that. And how do you know how? You don't know how to code. You can't figure that out. Right? Go get a job like everybody else." And then I kind of moved and found my tribe you know, and in Silicon Valley area and then in Austin, Texas. And then next thing you know, I'm actually doing the thing.  [00:36:53] Jason: I think even if people just come to DoorGrow Live to connect with somebody like you and they can create a relationship with somebody like you or any of the change makers or players that we attract at our event. [00:37:05] Jason: I mean, you've done things that a lot of people would dream of being able to do in business, right. And so come make those connections, come to DoorGrow Live and make some connections because it's going to change your life for sure. So, well Zac, I appreciate you coming on the show. People can connect with your company at utilityprofit.com. [00:37:22] Jason: Do a demo. And it's been great having you here.  [00:37:26] Zac: Hey, thanks so much for having me on Jason.  [00:37:28] Jason: All right, so everybody, if you are struggling to grow your business or you're struggling to deal with operations, reach out to us. Check us out at DoorGrow.com. We would love to have a conversation, see if we might be able to help you with something. [00:37:39] Jason: And that's what we do all day long and we care about our clients. We really want to make sure that everybody succeeds. We only win if you're winning. And so until next time, everybody to our mutual growth, let's all win. Bye everyone. 

It's Kingdom over Couture today on XYZ! God asked Pastor Shane Sorrels while in preparation for this message a very interesting question..“What's CLOTHING you?” Team XYZ, what we wear goes beyond fabric. It's about identity, righteousness, and being clothed in Christ. Listen to today's edition of Manna in the Morning with THE VOICE and get dressed up in the right garment!

Send us a textIn this week's episode Monica Monique and XYZ talk about Nigerian fashions and the designers.Zeee goes into her admiration of some different Nigerian designers and how overall she feels like Nigerian fashion designers are definitely paving the way for new skills to be learned. Monica praises Nigerian fashion designers for their skill level and the unique styles they come up with. She also expresses how she likes using Nigerian manufacturers over some other countries because of how they cater to the black woman body type. Our hosts go into what makes luxury fashion worth buying and give some tips on how to make your brand sellable in that market. As well as go over their their weekend into other topics.If you loved this episode and want to hear more make sure you leave us a five star review and subscribe.!Support the show

Block (XYZ) has gone by many names and ticker symbols. But, as the fintech company embraces its blockchain roots, the analyst community is weighing in as Keefe Bruyette upgraded the stock to an Outperform. Rick Ducat points to areas of support and resistance on the chart of XYZ, and Tom White looks at a bullish example call vertical options trade.======== Schwab Network ========Empowering every investor and trader, every market day.Options involve risks and are not suitable for all investors. Before trading, read the Options Disclosure Document. http://bit.ly/2v9tH6DSubscribe to the Market Minute newsletter - https://schwabnetwork.com/subscribeDownload the iOS app - https://apps.apple.com/us/app/schwab-network/id1460719185Download the Amazon Fire Tv App - https://www.amazon.com/TD-Ameritrade-Network/dp/B07KRD76C7Watch on Sling - https://watch.sling.com/1/asset/191928615bd8d47686f94682aefaa007/watchWatch on Vizio - https://www.vizio.com/en/watchfreeplus-exploreWatch on DistroTV - https://www.distro.tv/live/schwab-network/Follow us on X – https://twitter.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/schwab-network/About Schwab Network - https://schwabnetwork.com/about

When it comes to your fitness journey, something that has to be top of mind is COMMITMENT.Being fully committed to your goals doesn't just pertain to fitness though - it can apply to your career, finances, relationships, or anything else in your life. Whatever you're committing to (whether that's your fitness or something else), going ‘all in' and really committing to the process WILL lead you to success!I know this may not be earth-shattering information, but honestly… the simple, boring, and ‘unsexy' stuff is where the magic happens!I'm currently in a season of re-committing to my fitness journey, and making necessary changes to achieve my goals. For me, it's not a matter of ‘I'll try' - it's a matter of ‘I'm going to'. There's a HUGE difference when you change how you're thinking and speaking!I want you to figure out what is realistic for YOU in this season. Stop comparing yourself to others, and fully commit to ‘XYZ' on your fitness journey. There's no ‘plan B', and there's no reason for you to keep falling ‘off track', when you have the right tools and support in place!I hope you enjoyed this little pep talk. Remember - when you fully commit to something, there's NO WAY you won't succeed, friend!!In this episode, we cover:Why committing to & going ‘all in' with your fitness journey WILL lead to successWhat my commitment to my fitness journey looks like in this current seasonChanging what you're thinking & saying from ‘I'll try' to ‘I'm going to'Fully committing to what you're doing because there's no other optionWhy *not* committing & quitting too soon is a HUGE part of the problemLinks/Resources:Join FIT CLUB, my monthly membership with workouts you can do at home or the gymPRIVATE COACHING is my 1:1 program (choose 3 or 6 month option)Connect with me on Instagram @kristycastillofit and @unfuckyourfitnesspodcast so we can keep this conversation going-be sure to tag me in your posts and stories!Join my FREE Facebook group, Unf*ck Your FitnessClick HERE for my favorite fitness & life things!Send me a text with episode ideas or just to say hi! Support the show

“Converted and transformed”—“True Kingdom living starts with a childlike heart.”Tune in to the new episode of XYZ as we break down Matthew 18:3-4 and uncover what it really means to humble ourselves and step into God's presence. Don't miss this one!

Freda Uwa grew up in Nygeria. There she attended college securing a bachelor's degree and then went on to do some advance studies as well. She is a trained nurse. She also is a nutrition expert and, as she tells us, she loves to cook.   Five years ago Freda moved to Canada. She spent time as a mental health case manager even before her husband and three boys moved to Canada to join her. As she tells us, while she absolutely loved her time as a case manager, the job was quite taxing on her. She had to handle many cases where she had no one with whom to share her experiences. As we discuss here, not having any opportunity to decompress by talking to a spouse or others is by no means healthy.   Eventually Freda gave up her case management job and, just about a year ago, she assumed the job of Executive Director of Independent Living Canada. This organization oversees 24 independently operated independent living centers which are spread throughout Canada. She has shown that she is ideal for the job due to her leadership and project management training and skills. Freda is the first black leader of IL Canada which has been in existence for 38 years.   Freda gives us lots of insights on leadership and community. I hope you enjoy our time with Freda and that you will take the time to give this episode and Unstoppable Mindset a 5-star rating.       About the Guest:   Freda Uwa is a distinguished leader and advocate in the fields of independent living, accessibility, and mental health. Freda draws from her extensive experience in Canada to drive impactful initiatives and foster inclusive communities.   Currently, Freda serves as the National Executive Director of Independent Living Canada, overseeing 24 Independent Living Centres led by individual Executive Directors across the country. In this role, she made history as the first Black leader in the organization's 38-year history and the first African in Canada to ever lead the sector as National Executive Director.   Freda's notable accomplishments include her work as the Project Manager for the Creating Accessible Events Project for the Government of Canada through Accessible Standards Canada. This role underscores her commitment to ensuring that events across the nation are inclusive and accessible to all individuals, regardless of their abilities.   As the Regional Coordinator for the IDEA Project for Race and Disability Canada, Freda plays a pivotal role in addressing the intersectionality of race and disability, advocating for policies and practices that promote equity and inclusion.Her extensive background in mental health is exemplified by her previous role as a Mental Health and Addictions Case Manager, where she provided critical support and care to individuals facing mental health challenges and substance use issues.   In addition to her leadership and advocacy roles, Freda holds a Canadian Red Seal Endorsement for Skills and Trades, showcasing her dedication to professional excellence and her commitment to fostering skill development and employment opportunities.     Freda Uwa's career is marked by her unwavering dedication to championing the rights and needs of marginalized communities, her innovative approach to project management, and her exceptional leadership in promoting independent living and accessibility. Her work continues to inspire and drive positive change across Canada, Africa and beyond.   Ways to connect with Freda:   IL Canada Facebook Link - https://www.facebook.com/MyIndependentLivingCanada?mibextid=ZbWKwL Freda's LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/freda-uwa-7515a235?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=android_app  Freda Instagram (Business page)  - https://www.instagram.com/luluseventsandkitchen?igsh=YW10OWs3ODY5d2Q1   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome once again to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and we do get to talk about inclusion today. And as some of you know who are regular listeners to this podcast, the reason it is inclusion, diversity in the unexpected is it's inclusion because it is. Diversity comes second after inclusion, because if you talk to people about diversity, typically they never talk about disabilities. We get left out of the discussion. And then the unexpected is anything that doesn't have anything to do with inclusion or diversity, which is probably most of the guests that we deal with. But today, we are going to have the honor of speaking to Freda Uwa and Freda is the executive director of independent living Canada, which has responsibility or works with the 24 independent living centers around Canada. And so I'm really looking forward to learning more about that and hearing about it and looking forward to hearing all that Freda has to say. So Freda, we want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset, and we're really glad you're here.   Freda Uwa ** 02:29 Thank you, Michael, thanks for having me. Well, I   Michael Hingson ** 02:33 love to start kind of little bit different than maybe some people do tell us about the early Frida, growing up and all that sort of stuff, anything that that you want us to know, and you don't have to tell us all your secrets, but tell us about the early freedom.   Freda Uwa ** 02:49 Oh, that's fun. Thanks. Michael. Freda, the little girl. Freda i Oh, that's so much fun. Now I think about growing up and all of the memories that that comes with so I I am privileged to have grown in a closely middle class family in Nigeria. I grew up in Nigeria, one of the countries in Africa, and it was fun, right? The bills, just happy go lucky child. I was the one child that had all the breast of energy, and I just loved to laugh. So that was all of that. There was family, faith based activities, and I also had schooling, of course. And went to college, did my nursing, went on to do a BSc in home Science and Management, and with an option in nutrition and dietetics and so all of that was fun. And of course, I enjoyed having to be part of a family that loved to do things together. So that was, that's Freda, oh, the little girl. Frida, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 04:02 that's the little girl. Frida, well, that works out pretty well. So you have a bachelor's did you go anywhere beyond a bachelor's degree or   Freda Uwa ** 04:11 Yeah, so in Canada, I had, I took a post grad certificate in nursing, leadership and management, and then community mental health certificate as well. So yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 04:23 what that works out pretty well and certainly kept you busy. And what did? What did you do with all that? Once you got your degrees,   Freda Uwa ** 04:33 I evolved. You evolved.   Michael Hingson ** 04:37 You grew up then, huh?   Freda Uwa ** 04:39 Absolutely, absolutely. So there was a lot of growth that came with that, a lot of responsibilities. I moved to Canada, figured out new part and all of that. So there was all of the growth that happened and that forces you to evolve. So the degree, the experience and all of that. So in the short answer is I evolved with that. So yeah. Us.   Michael Hingson ** 05:01 Okay, and so what kind of jobs did you hold   Freda Uwa ** 05:09 all my life? You mean, or you're just asking for a period in my life?   Michael Hingson ** 05:13 Yes, so once college was over, what kind of, what kind of jobs did you actually do then for a while?   Freda Uwa ** 05:19 Okay, so I, I am a registered nurse as well, so I'm right. I have many parts, right? So I did nursing. I also have a business, a food business as well. So I was into events management and catering at the time, and then the core of what I do now, also started in Nigeria, where I led a nonprofit for about four years before moving over to Canada, did some schooling, and then came back to the space that I love, and that's social services around people, supporting people with disabilities and all of that so and that's a pack of all that I did in terms of work.   Michael Hingson ** 06:01 What brought you from Nigeria to Canada?   Freda Uwa ** 06:05 First of all, it was cooling, like I came to experience that other side of education, right? So I came with that flare, and then family moved over, and now I'm here.   Michael Hingson ** 06:19 Well, that works out pretty well we i People won't necessarily see it, but we just have company joining us. My cat has joined us. I see and I'm trying to get her up on the back of our desk chair so that she will hopefully leave us alone. Anyway, there we go. Well, so how long ago did you come over from Nigeria to Canada? I've been in   Freda Uwa ** 06:45 Canada going on five years now. I I moved here at the peak of, not the peak at the beginning of the pandemic. So I came in just as I got into Canada, everywhere was shut down. So I'm like, is this the reality? Is this what it feels like being here? So I was almost locked up right away. So yeah, that's, that's my journey. So it's about going on five years now.   Michael Hingson ** 07:10 Wow. So you've been here a while. So you, you came over here and you, you decided that your passion was really working in the arena of disabilities and and so on. So what? What really caused you to do that? Why did you decide that that's what you really wanted to do with your life?   Freda Uwa ** 07:34 Great question. Michael, so I've always known that I had what I call a greater calling, like I've always wanted to live my purpose in life. I know I did share that. I am a registered nurse in Nigeria, and having all of that, and also business owner in Nigeria, but I find that in all that I did, there was something, there was a missing piece, right? So I needed to, I needed to fill that void and recall that I told you that I grew up in a close knit family setting, so my younger sister that I love today, by the way, she has a disability, and I've been a primary caregiver I had, or I was her primary caregiver for a while, and I also watched my mother struggle through that. At some point, my mother, my mother's life, was almost on hold because she needed to take care of her child. So that, in itself, created the need for me to just fill a void, right? So it was beyond just where, where's the money, right? It was beyond that, and I needed to just leave out my purpose and find a career that would really and genuinely make me happy while I'm touching life in the way that I know how to   Michael Hingson ** 09:05 Yeah, well, and I believe very firmly in the fact that if you're really doing what you like to do, then it isn't really a job. It's it's a whole lot more fun, and it's a whole lot more rewarding. Absolutely,   Freda Uwa ** 09:19 I'm having fun, Michael, I'm having funded. So yes, which   Michael Hingson ** 09:22 is, which is really important to be able to do, what if I can ask, is the disability that your sister has? She's   Freda Uwa ** 09:30 She has intellectual disability. So it's, yeah, so it's all and again, with misdiagnosis and all of that. So that's a whole situation going on, right there. So that's why, that's how I how come I, I'm like, there is a void that needs to be filled, right? So it's all of the complications that comes out from misdiagnosis and her living through that all her life. Yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 09:54 Now is, is she and your family still in Nigeria, or did they move over here too?   Freda Uwa ** 09:59 I know my my mom and my sister are still in Nigeria. In   Michael Hingson ** 10:04 Nigeria, well, I assume you go back and visit every so often. That's all we have. Yeah, you gotta do that well and and when you can't go back, you've got things like zoom so you can still look at them and talk to them.   Freda Uwa ** 10:18 Absolutely we, we thank God for technology. So it's all of that, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 10:24 yeah, technology has certainly made a significant difference in the whole art of communications over the past, oh, especially 10 years, but certainly in the last five years, just because of what the pandemic has done and so on, for sure. So how did you end up specifically deciding to get involved with independent living centers, and how did you end up being the executive director of independent living Canada?   Freda Uwa ** 10:55 Oh, interesting. That's a great question. Michael, so I, I, I say this always, my story and journey has always been that of resilience and just a journey of self discovery and awareness. I'll give you, I'll share with you. Michael, right, as I came into Canada in 2020, at the beginning of COVID, I was in, I was in a I was in on a conversation with a friend at the time, and he was sharing an experience, and was speaking to me about somebody, and speaking to me about a newcomer who had come into Canada and was leading an organization like an like an administrator at the time, and this history was about the consequences of mismanagement of some sort. Hm, and he, he let me know that the, the woman got into trouble, and, you know, was relieved of her job and all of that because she didn't do something, right? But while I was listening to that story, a seed was planted in me that, hold on, I've got this experience, I've got this much knowledge, I've got this much abilities, I've got this much skills. Then if a newcomer could transfer all of that here to Canada and do all of this. That means there is space for me somewhere. So it wasn't more so of yes, what you shouldn't do, it's something, it didn't come to me as though, like it's a test for your competence or something. I knew there was, there was a possibility somewhere. So that was when the seed was planted in me. And as soon as I began to look for jobs, I started looking out for the jobs that aligned with what I had done, including my executive executive leadership in Nigeria. And that was how it happened that I was done schooling, and I started looking for opportunities, and I went out to apply for jobs that would speak to my competencies and and the rest that says history. So I we, that's how the seed was planted. I'm like, okay, yeah, there I go, and I'll tell you what happened with my very first interview and Michael, I didn't get called for an interview and Ed role. And I, I'm not sure if you know about the process with executive hiring, it's a lot of steps, like you do the phone the phone interview, you do the writing, you go for, like a first phase, a second phase, and all of that. It was really daunting. And I went through all the phases, and I was feeling really confident and good about it. I actually went through to the last phase where I had to go in person to see the outgoing Ed who was retiring at the time, and kind of like had a meeting slash interview situation that it looked as though I was getting on boarded, but it wasn't, like official. So in my head, I felt that this is it. I'm there, yeah. So I did, I did all of that. I went back home, and a couple of days later I got the email, you know, one of those emails, and I'm like, oh, oh, no. So this is it's that's no way on from here that this is it. I And then like, Oh, thank you for your time and all of that. So we've moved on to XYZ, and you know all of those words, I'm like, oh, in that moment, I didn't feel like, I didn't feel too bad, because I felt like, Oh, this is my first and I got this close, then that's something, right? So yeah, I'm like, okay, that's not too bad. But what happened next was what really got me thinking I continued my job search, right? So a couple of weeks later, I get an email from the same organization asking if I. Still available for the role and for the job. And I was excited again. I'm like, Oh yes, I can. Why not? And then in their response there, they wanted to have a second interview, set of interview. I'm like, hold on, what's going on? I'm like, okay, that's not too bad. I will, I will make myself available for the interview, and I did, and I think we had the next one, and I got really worried. And then after that, I got an email saying the same thing, that they had given the role to somebody else, and that got me angry. Yeah, right. So I needed to know what it was. You name it. Let me what I so I sent out an email to them. I'm like, Oh, hold on. So what's all this? What's, what's, what's going on, let me know why my like, I just needed to know. And then they responded to say that I was over qualified for the role. I'm like, that's, that's, that's a dumb answer, right? So, Hawaii, why would you say that to be now that, now that I'm thinking about it, right? So I took all of that in, and I decided to move on from there and just pick up the lessons. And then went forward with that. So that experience in itself shapes me into the resilience of not just giving up, because I knew I was very close to getting what I wanted right. So I went on from there, and I became an addictions case manager, addictions and mental health case manager, a job that I really, really love. It was so beautiful I had. I had the privilege of going to flying into the isolated reserves in those little, small airplanes and all of that. So I give so many emergency responses, whether it's flawed calls for suicide and all of those mental health work. I really loved that job, but it was so heavy on me, and it was at the time when I was going through a lot in my my own self, like emotionally and my mental health, I was by myself in Canada. At the time, my my family, that my husband and kids were still in Nigeria. So the weight of all of that was too much on me, like there was nothing to decompress to, if you know what I mean, right? So you go, you hear all of these heavy things, and you cannot really process your own feelings. And then I'm also thinking about the same situation, and I'm thinking about, Oh, what's going on? What's my what's what's going on in my head? So I didn't, I didn't, I didn't stay too long on that job. And then I and also I left because it was too much, like I said, even though I loved the job. And then I went on to become the CEO of an Ability Center, which is also supporting individuals with intellectual disabilities. And from there on, was when I, I moved on to il Canada, and I'm loving it. So that's my story of resilience.   Michael Hingson ** 17:59 Yeah, it is really tough when you're you're by yourself, and you don't have anyone to talk to and to share things with, because talking with someone, talking things out, is always important and is always helpful, because it helps you put things in perspective. And when you can't do that, it just bottles up inside of you, and that's that's not good. Mm, hmm,   18:23 absolutely,   Michael Hingson ** 18:26 well, but, but you, you moved on. So how long have you been in il Canada? Now   Freda Uwa ** 18:33 going on one year? Oh, September, yes. So it's just what going on one year in September. So, yeah, feel very new.   Michael Hingson ** 18:42 So tell me a little bit about il Canada and what you do and so on.   Freda Uwa ** 18:47 Okay, so I'll Canada. It's basically a network of independent living centers across the country. It started in, it was it started in it started as a movement a long time ago, in 1986 it was formerly known as Canadian Association of Independent Living Centers, and now now independent living Canada. So it's all about providing a collective voice on the on national issues for all of our member centers and fostering and maintaining partnerships in that regard, building capacity and scaling what we're doing, especially on the national level. So our member centers have the via our foot soldiers in different different communities and different local centers. So we are we've got il member centers in almost across every project, every province in Canada. It's in Saskatchewan, Ontario, you name it, it's everywhere. So IO Canada, it's we thrive on. Four core pillars of service, which would be independent living, skills development, peer support, Networking and Information and all of the resources that we do. So we provide a national voice for all 24 member centers, and they are all run by different executive directors and offering unique needs to their communities,   Michael Hingson ** 20:25 so and so. What you do is, do you do you coordinate services? Do you act as more of a case manager and distribute funds? Or what does IO Canada do for the 24 agencies, right?   Freda Uwa ** 20:43 Great question. So these, like I said, the 24 agencies or centers, are independent of like they are autonomous, like the source funds and all of that, even though we provide some substantial but it is really, they are very independent of what we do, so we are like a collective voice for the member centers on the national level. So that's what IEL Canada does. We there's monthly meetings, there is all of the accreditations that we do and just ensuring that all accredited member centers are operating within our four core pillars of service that promotes independent living for people with cross disabilities.   Michael Hingson ** 21:29 What relationship or how do you interact with organizations like the Canadian National Institute for the Blind and so on.   Freda Uwa ** 21:39 So that in itself. It's it will totally depend on what projects we're working on, right? So it would be project based or research based, right? So we are a national voice for all of our centers. So if, if any of our Centers are partnering, partnering with any individual Association, that is the partnership we're seeking, and we will support and encourage them. But on the national level, it's usually project based or collaboration in terms of research or information, or whatever that looks like, or maybe communities of practice and all of that.   Michael Hingson ** 22:17 Well, how does well, let me rephrase that, what does CNIB do, as opposed to what the independent living centers do? Do you know,   Freda Uwa ** 22:28 again, each independent living center is operating on different like they have, they have tailored made programs for their centers, right? So some people have communities that they have programs that support vision loss or the blind and all the other centers who have programs for youth, employment, housing, transportation. So they are all direct funding to support independent living in terms of managing your resources and other skills. So for in that regard, it would naturally lie with the centers and how they want to collaborate with cnid. So it's for us at the national level. It would mostly be on research or any collaboration on the project, but to actually reach out to the consumers or participants, it will be the independent centers, like the member centers themselves, right?   Michael Hingson ** 23:24 So a CNI be more of a funding agency or, or, well, I know that they do provide services, but I was just trying to understand where the overlap is, or, or how the two types of organizations interact with each other.   Freda Uwa ** 23:39 I'm not familiar with their model, like, I don't know about their model, yeah, but most, what we do with every organization, or most organization is collaboration or partnership, right? So they may have a different funding model for us at IELTS Canada. It's it's center is working on our four core pillars, providing different programs and services within these four populars, and they're at liberty to fill up make these programs to suit their communities.   Michael Hingson ** 24:09 Okay? So they they may work, and they may get some funding from CNIB for specific projects and so on. But I, I understand that you're dealing with being closer to the individual communities where   Freda Uwa ** 24:22 you are. Oh, for sure, that's with the member centers. Yeah, for myself, I am, like the administrative head for the national organization, the National aisle, right,   Michael Hingson ** 24:31 right. Yeah, right. Well, so when, when you've been working and you've you've now been doing some of this for a while, what would be for you a pivotal moment, given our philosophy, or our title, unstoppable mindset, where is a pivotal moment in your life, where you had to really demonstrate resilience? It's an unstoppability.   Freda Uwa ** 25:03 I like that question so much. I I kind of feel like, um, I've had so many of those moments, right? I've had the moment where I had to face the pandemic, pandemic all by myself, without my family here. And I'm like, No, so I have to be here for me. I have to be here for my family as well. So all of those is all of that. It's a part of the package, right? And then I also had the moment where I started on that conversation with my friend that spoke about that lady, and it planted a seed in my heart, like I was there was something for me if I was going to transfer all of my skills from Nigeria. I could do it right and and then again, the next big thing that happened to me was having a meltdown on my job as a as a case manager for mental health and addictions. So all of those moments left me, like you said, with that unstoppable mindset, like growth is not always linear, like you get bumps, you get heat, and then you have to get up and you keep moving. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 26:13 yeah, you you've got to make that decision to do that, to make the decision to to move forward. And that's an individual choice, but when you decide to do it and you stick to it, you get such a wonderful feeling of accomplishment, don't you Exactly,   Freda Uwa ** 26:30 exactly, that's, that's, that's, yeah, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 26:35 which is, which is pretty cool. So you are able to, you know, to move forward and do the things that you do, the things that you got to do. So you're also unusual in another way, in terms of being the first black executive director of independent living Canada and one of the first two black leaders in a lot of different areas and aspects of the whole rehabilitation and independent living environment. Does that get to be a challenge for you, or do you regard that as a plus or what?   Freda Uwa ** 27:15 I think it's both, because it comes with a lot of pressure, for sure, and then there is that feeling of who, what's here, like, am I finding somebody that looks like me, and what's there to learn from? Right? So, who's gone ahead before me, and where's the where is all the mentorship? Where would that come from? Right? But I also find that I've got a lot, a ton of support from my board. Yeah, ever so supportful, self supportive and yeah, so that has helped. So it's a feeling of of there is work to be done, and, of course, a feeling of accomplishment of some sort, but more so that I I've got a bucket to feel with what's been expected, like I need to give back with what's been poured into me, right? So that's all of that, but in one hand, in the one hand, I see that I there is a gap. There is a gap in representation, for sure. I know we talk about inclusion in terms of people with disabilities, and also thinking about building capacity for young leaders and newcomer leaders coming forward, and making sure that they find a mentorship and some form of support to build capacity in leadership. In that regard, because they are usually different, different levels of expectations from a racialized person as a leader and a non racialized person. So it's all of that, all of that pressure for sure, and having to face that, and constantly telling your story or living through barriers, even as a leader, you have constant barriers you keep facing and then kind of rewriting your own story. I would say,   Michael Hingson ** 29:07 now you don't have a disability in any traditional sense, right? I   Freda Uwa ** 29:12 would say undiagnosed, because I don't know. I feel like I know I have something, but it's undiagnosed. So yes,   Michael Hingson ** 29:19 well, there you go. Something, something to figure out, right? Yes,   Freda Uwa ** 29:24 for sure. And I've always said it, it's, it's a continuum, like it's a spectrum. So it's, everybody's just one life event away from a disability, right? So you never know until you until you find out. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 29:37 of course, people have heard me say on this podcast that actually, everyone has a disability. For most of you, it's you're light dependent. You don't do well when there isn't light around for you to see what you're doing. And inventing the electric light bulb kind of led to a cover up of your disability. But it's still there. It's just that it doesn't manifest itself very often. And the reason, I think it's important. Important to take that kind of a view is that all too often, and I'd be interested in your thoughts on this, but all too often, when people think about disability, they think about, well, it's called disability because it's a lack of ability, and it isn't really, but people think less of people who they regard as traditionally having some sort of disability, and the result is that they look down on or think they're better than somebody with a disability. And I adopted the definition that we all have disabilities, they just manifest differently. In order to try to help start to level that playing field and get people to understand that in reality, we all have challenges, and we all have gifts, and we shouldn't look down on anyone just because they don't have some of the gifts that we do.   Freda Uwa ** 30:53 That's a great way to look at it. Michael, I so in recent times in my work, there is this I've heard about social location, this phrase called social location, Michael, I   Michael Hingson ** 31:07 have not heard much about that. I'm not overly familiar with it, so go ahead, I can imagine. But go ahead. Okay,   Freda Uwa ** 31:13 so that's like, exactly where you are on your social map. I would say, just to put it in a clear way, right? So it's all of those identity markers that make you, right? You might think you don't, you have it all here, but in the next high you're you're not as much privileged as the next person. So it's being on different sports in that social map, right? So I could be, let the I could, I could not have a disability that I know, but in some way I'm I'm disadvantaged, right? So it's all of that coming together and realizing that when we when we're seeking for inclusion for all, it's actually all. And the definition of all can be expanded to mean actually every single person, and not just people with stability. It's every single person ensuring, keeping, taking into consideration that you are not always at the top all the time. You could be privileged in so many areas, and then you are disadvantaged in some area. So it's that social location concept that should, that should inform our need to level the playing fields at all time.   Michael Hingson ** 32:31 Yeah, um, unfortunately, all too often, people won't adopt that principle, and they won't adopt that mindset. So they really think that they're better than others. The unemployment rate among persons with disabilities is still very high compared to the general population. It's still in the 50 to 60% range. And it's not because people with disabilities can't work. It's that people who don't happen to have those same disabilities think that people with those disabilities can't work and so as a result, they're never given the opportunity.   Freda Uwa ** 33:11 Yeah, that's a constant struggle, for sure. Yeah, and that's why we do what we do,   Michael Hingson ** 33:16 right, which is very important to do. So you, you, you work as the executive director, is the CEO of the organization. Do you do all the independent living centers, then do a lot of work with consumer organizations and other things in their local areas, so that they keep very close ties to consumers.   Freda Uwa ** 33:44 Oh, for sure, that's the, that's that's the that's the structure of innovative living Canada, right? So il Canada and il member centers are close to the local communities. So all il member centers are community based centers. So they're, they're in the communities and partnering with, partnering with local communities to meet any unmet needs for persons with disabilities. Okay, yeah, so, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 34:15 So now you're, you're obviously more in an administrative kind of role, but what kind of involvement or or interactions do you have with like consumers and consumer organizations? That's a tricky   Freda Uwa ** 34:29 question, right? So I I've only been here one year. Yeah, I understand. I can speak to the last 11 months, right? So so far with consumer organizations, I am only, only partnered in terms of a project or a research it's still a project or project, right? So whether it's but I feel like that comes from the centers as well, because my the independent living centers. You. Get us involved in partnerships that it's just beyond them, right? So we get partnership partnership, and we need to standing as a national organization to get three or four of our IELTS member centers into that partnership. So that's the level we play. More like we the go between and giving that voice to them. But generally I am more of the administrator than being involved in consumer agencies or organizations, right?   Michael Hingson ** 35:32 Yeah, no, I understand that's I was just wondering if, if, if there is involvement, or how you ever get to interact with them, because I would think that working with consumer organizations in some manner can strengthen what you do as an organization.   Freda Uwa ** 35:51 Yeah, yeah, for sure, we're still, we are open to partnerships, for sure, but it's a process. It's yeah, it's a process, and then for sure, it's what the local centers are needing, and that's what we are doing at the national level, right? So it's, it's a, it's a two way street with the local sense, local member centers. We are nothing without our member centers. So that, yeah, right,   Michael Hingson ** 36:13 right. No, I understand. Well, that's that is still pretty cool, though, and it gives you, it gives you some freedom, and it gives you the ability to look at things from a higher level. But I would assume that it also gives you the opportunity, then to look at how you can work and make a difference in the whole independent living process around Canada.   Freda Uwa ** 36:39 That's for sure. That's for sure. There is work for sure, and that's what we have started doing. So there's a lot of traction happening right now, and just taking one day at a time and reviewing all our partnerships and building other collab partnerships and collaborating in other areas as well. So yeah, I agree. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 37:01 Yeah. Now, I didn't say it earlier, but we met through Sheldon Lewis at accessibe. So I guess you have, have you looked at accessibe as a product, and are you working with Sheldon on that sort of thing, or, or, How is accessibe involved with the Independent Living Center movement in Canada, I   Freda Uwa ** 37:21 would say we are currently having that conversation right now. So, yes,   Michael Hingson ** 37:28 well, so, so at this point, you're looking to see where it might fit and and how, how it would work. Yeah.   Freda Uwa ** 37:39 So we're reviewing all of that. We are reviewing the product and going through the board and test running everything. So, yeah, so just reviewing, what, how that works, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 37:49 So you're actually, so you're actually testing it and looking at it to see what it does and doesn't do and so on.   Freda Uwa ** 37:55 Exactly, yes.   Michael Hingson ** 37:57 What about the whole concept, from your standpoint of Internet access and inclusion, the problem that we see overall is that in our world, maybe 3% of websites have really made an effort to put something on their site to make the website accessible or inclusive, but Most places still haven't done that. How do we change   Freda Uwa ** 38:22 that? I think this is as it's it's still the whole package, about 31 step at a time, and I'm very careful, and I caution against tokenism and just wanting to do something because you want to check up the boxes, right? Yeah, what? What's the intention? Really? Are you really concerned about your consumers, your customers, your clients? Are you really wanting to reach everybody, and everybody, right? So what does that look like for you? So I'm Yeah, it's concerning, for sure, that we have such low percentage of people of websites who are looking into being more accessible and not just checking off one box, right? So, and it's broad, it's really broad because accessibility is it's not just one thing, right? So internet accessibility for sure, it's the next big thing. And at our planned AGM coming up here in September, we are, that's the key, the the main theme of our of our meeting, it's AI and the future of accessibility for all. So, yeah, so that is a good thing that you asked it, because we are looking to build a future where accessibility is second nature to everybody.   Michael Hingson ** 39:51 Someone said something once, and I think is a is a really wonderful thought to have, and that is that we a. All look forward to the day when we are so inclusive that access, or accessibility is a term that we forget and never have to use anymore, because it's just so automatic.   Freda Uwa ** 40:12 I like that. I like that. That's second nature, right? So we don't have to think about it like this is what it is. It's universal. It's a universal design. This is right. Want to see, right? So, and again, like I said, it's not you're not doing it for them. It's not an us, them conversation. It's for all of us, because it's one live event from one disability to the next. So it's creating a world where everybody can thrive, and I empowered to thrive equally, right? Yeah, and   Michael Hingson ** 40:44 I think that is that is so important, and I hope that that day comes sooner than later, but I think it's still a ways off, but I think it is one of those things to really strive for, because as as you and I have both talked about today, everyone has gifts. We all don't have the same gifts, and no one should look down on anyone else just because we're different in some way. And yet, unfortunately, all too often, we do, which is a problem.   Freda Uwa ** 41:20 Yeah, that's right, Michael. And that's, it's really sad how the world has turned humans against humans. And that's, that's not the world we want to see. You know, I'll tell you something that's a renowned writer in Nigeria, Chimamanda dice, she spoke about the evil word for love. IBO is my local dialect, my native tongue, and the evil word for love, love is if unanya And that, what that literally translates to is, I see you, so Michael, if I love you, I see you beyond anything else. I see you beyond your abilities, beyond your color, beyond any other identity marker that defines you. I just see your soul. So sometimes I feel like we African language is not fully the English doesn't do the English language doesn't do justice to the weight of our native tongue, right? So that's love seeing humans, seeing who you are, for who you are, nothing beyond that. So that's really, that's, that's the world I look forward to having, for sure. And   Michael Hingson ** 42:36 it is so important that we all look at each other for who we are because one characteristic doesn't define us, blindness doesn't define me, your being from Nigeria doesn't define you. It's part of your experience, but it doesn't define you, and it shouldn't.   Freda Uwa ** 42:57 Yeah, right, yeah, absolutely, yeah. Then   Michael Hingson ** 43:01 we have politicians, and they're all defined by what they do when we can pick on them. So it's okay, that's a smart move. But, but, but really, you know, it's one characteristic or whatever doesn't define us. It is part of our makeup, but it doesn't define us. And I think that's very important, that we really understand that we are the sum of everything that we do and that we are, and a lot of what we do and what we are comes from the choices that we make. And that's why I really like unstoppable mindset, because it's a podcast that really helps to show people who listen and watch that they are more unstoppable than they think they are, and what we really need to do is to bring that unstoppability out in everyone, and if it comes out in the right way, it also means that we learn how to work more closely with each other. And I think it is important that we start having more of a sense of community throughout the whole world. I   Freda Uwa ** 44:04 like that, Michael and I like your tie into the unstoppable mindset, like it's in the mind. Yeah, the seed is planted in the mind, and that's where it blossoms, and it's all the environment you give to that seed. How are you cultivating your thoughts? How are you, what are you feeding your thoughts with, right? So, how are you accepting values and projecting values and all of that? So it's in the mind. And so once the mindset is unstoppable, you can thrive, you can bloom, you can become, you can be established in every sphere that you choose. So that's, that's, that's the goal, really so, yeah, that's the unstoppable mindset for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 44:45 Yeah, it's very important. And I think that we all usually underestimate ourselves, and we need to work on not doing that. We need. To demand more of ourselves about what we do, and if we do that, and the more of that that we do, we'll find that we can go out of our what people call comfort zones, a whole lot more, and we'll find that we can do a lot more than we think that we can.   Freda Uwa ** 45:17 Yeah, and I like that. And to your point, Michael, I also, I also feel like we also need to give ourselves credits for all of what we've been through. Yeah, keep yourself the the empathy, like, take time, take a break, recharge and come back right. Like I said, growth isn't always linear. Sometimes you need to take those pauses and recognize that you need to stop, recharge and then go for it, right? So just give yourself credit for showing up. That's it. That's enough, right? You've shown up, that's enough. You've done the step one. That's enough. Show yourself some empathy, show yourself love, and that's the way it radiates to people around you, for sure,   Michael Hingson ** 46:02 I like the idea of showing yourself love you should and and I mean that, and I know that you do as well. Mean it in a positive way. It doesn't have anything to do with ego and thinking you're the greatest thing in the world since sliced bread, but it is recognizing who you are and showing yourself as much as anything that that love is also a significant part of or ought to be a significant part of your life.   Freda Uwa ** 46:29 Mm, hmm, yeah, absolutely. And show up for yourself. Show up for yourself. Yeah, you can be so many things to so many people, but how about yourself? Right? Don't show up for yourself and let yourself enjoy you as a person, right?   Michael Hingson ** 46:46 Well, I love to say, I used to say I'm my own worst critic, and I've learned that's not the right thing to say. The right thing to say is I'm my own best teacher, because I'm the only one that can really teach me. And I think that's so important to make things positive. And when something happens, it's not so positive, figure out what the issue is and how to address it, but you, but you can do that. We all can do that. Yes, right? So I think it's so important, and you can do that with   Freda Uwa ** 47:15 love as well, right? Yes, absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 47:19 That's a good one. So you do a lot of work in managing projects and so on. So what? How did you how did you get to be a good project manager? Because that's part of, obviously, what you do. Was it something you were trained to do? You've picked up on. You have a natural talent for it?   Freda Uwa ** 47:35 Yes. So I've got training in project management. And of course, like it's I did events management back in Nigeria. So it's all of that, that training, the experience and, of course, natural talents to knowing how to manage people and little programs. So that's built into the training that I also had. So yeah, it's all of everything, a bit of everything, I would say,   Michael Hingson ** 47:58 What do you think makes a good leader. That's a toughie, I know. Oh, right, Michael, you   Freda Uwa ** 48:05 don't want to do this.   Michael Hingson ** 48:09 This sounds dangerous.   Freda Uwa ** 48:10 I know, right? So, yeah. So you know what I used to say? I try, I try to make people happy, right? But it's a really difficult job to be a leader, really difficult one. But my concept of leadership is showing people how to follow. So my concept is building leaders right modeling the way for people to follow. So a good leader is a servant leader. They are listening. And you're also wanting to build leaders, and that is giving empowering your following to do as you what you've done. So you're showing them you're doing it, and you're ensuring that you're leaving no one behind. So a good leader is leading and moving her team from behind. That's my That's That's the summary of what I would say. But then that doesn't always mean you're making people happy, because I always tell I say this sometimes, that if you want to make everybody happy, you go sell ice cream, you don't want to take a leadership role, because you you might hurt some people, for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 49:27 Well, I think also it's important to to say that good leaders, and you, you mentioned it, train other people and teach other people how to be leaders. I think one of the most important things, and I always said it to every person I ever hired, was I didn't hire you so I could boss you around my hiring you because you convinced me you could do the job I'm hiring you to do. But what you and I have to do together is to figure out how I can add value and. And enhance what you do. And that's really a tricky and challenging thing, because it isn't necessarily something that, as the official leader, if you will, is is best done by me. It's oftentimes better done by the people I hire who observe me and observe all that goes on around us. And who will come and say, here's how I think I can do better with your help, and here's how I how I think you can add value to what I do. And you know, I've hired a lot of people who can't do that. They can't go there. They're just not used to that kind of model. But I do know that the ones who who understand it and who accept it and who follow through on it, those people do really well, because we learn to compliment each other and their skills and my skills, which are different, but can coalesce together to mean that the sum of the parts, or the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, because we work together.   Freda Uwa ** 51:13 That's right, Michael, that's right. And you've said it right there. Like a good leader is only as good you as a leader, you're only as good as your team, right? So you want to make the team work, right? So, yeah, that's, that's, that's my view on leadership as well. What, what's my team doing, and how am I supporting them to to thrive and become,   Michael Hingson ** 51:36 yeah, yeah, that's, that's really important, and I think that's really a big part of leadership. Certainly, leadership has to motivate and and overall coordinate the efforts of what the team does, but the best leaders also know when to let someone else take the lead because they've got better skills in a particular arena or project than someone someone else does   Freda Uwa ** 52:05 absolutely, yeah, yeah, for sure. So,   Michael Hingson ** 52:09 in addition to being the executive director of independent living Canada, what else do you do? What are your other passions or hobbies, or what other kinds of things do you like to get involved in   Freda Uwa ** 52:22 alright, that's fun. I am a red seal endorsed chef. So I cook. I love to cook. That's my escape. I cook for family. I cook for friends. I'm involved in my local community here in Saskatoon, and my local cultural community. So all of that are the things I do, and more. So I am just about publishing my first book I started a long time ago. And so, yeah, I'm also an author at night. And yeah, so yeah, I'm excited about my book. It's called Jollof life, and I'm excited for sure. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 53:04 when will it be published?   Freda Uwa ** 53:09 I don't have a date yet, but I will, I will let you know soon enough.   Michael Hingson ** 53:14 So roughly, when do you think it will be published? Just, I mean, is it six months away, a year or three months or   Freda Uwa ** 53:20 I'm thinking, I'm thinking, six months away. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 53:24 okay, cool. Well, that's exciting. That's exciting that you're, you're working on a book.   Freda Uwa ** 53:32 So do you know what Jollof is? Michael, no, what is that? Tell me. Let me. Let me coach you. So Jollof is it's a dish in Africa. It's, it's a type of rice that is cooked into my tomato, tomato, tomato broth and meat stock. And it's really, really flavorful. It's red, it's rich, and all of that. It's so good that, like I have, I'm a caterer in Nigeria. I know I need to say that when I was in Nigeria, I was a caterer. So if you go to an event, you must have a stand for Jollof rice. So it's really, it's really that good that there is a saying in Nigeria that any party without Jollof rice is just a meeting, right? There you go. It's, that is that good? So I call Jollof right, the queen of the buffet. So it's, it has to be there. It just has to be there. And it's so relevant that there is an online feud amongst African countries of Who makes the best job, right? So it's, that good, right? So I took that idea and turned that into life. What's what life that is, what makes you so relevant at what you do, and that's why I'm I switched that around to Jollof life, right? Just standing out and being the queen of your life, or the. Of your life and owning that space and just being as relevant and and having to dominate your space. So I cooked through a part of the love, right, while writing that book, and I was expressing myself through the Arabs and the flavors and cooking life through that book. So that's what the book is about.   Michael Hingson ** 55:18 Oh, that's exciting. And it makes sense that that's the title. And I kind of figured maybe that was sort of what it was when you said jolla life. But it makes, makes perfect sense, what's your favorite thing to cook?   Freda Uwa ** 55:32 And now, now that you now that you know, then it's Jollof. Of course. It's chill off.   Michael Hingson ** 55:39 What's your second favorite thing to cook. Oh,   Freda Uwa ** 55:42 pasta. Okay. I kind of feel like, I mean, earlier in my blood, right? So I love to cook pasta. That's   Michael Hingson ** 55:52 pretty cool. Do you make your own pasta from scratch or,   Freda Uwa ** 55:57 Oh, I do. I do, yes. So I Buy store bought ones, but I also make mine from scratch too. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 56:03 I bet it tastes better when you make it from scratch though. Oh,   Freda Uwa ** 56:07 it's so good. Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 56:10 that's exciting. Well, and your book is coming. So what other things do you like to do besides independent living and and cooking or nutrition?   Freda Uwa ** 56:22 So, yeah, I'm, I'm involved in my local community, cultural community of women, so we are out dancing sometimes, and, you know, having local events. So that's something else that keeps me busy in the weekend. And I love, I love that I'm still, I'm able to to connect with the my culture here in Canada as well. So yeah, those are the things I love, family. I love spending time with my family. That's I've got men in my house and like that. I teach sometimes, and I say that I live with four men, right? So three of those are my boys, and one is my husband. So I take some time to have the boy time. So I'm also, I'm also, I suck myself in that as well. So I do some boy activities. So I, yeah, so yeah, that's my, my downgrade.   Michael Hingson ** 57:13 But you gotta do some girl activities too.   Freda Uwa ** 57:17 That's, that's when I have my me time. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 57:20 What's important to do? And the boys probably go off and do their things too. How old are the boys? Yeah, I've   Freda Uwa ** 57:27 got a 14 year old, an 11 year old and an eight year old.   Michael Hingson ** 57:32 Ah, so are boys? No girls, no,   Freda Uwa ** 57:37 none. Yet,   Michael Hingson ** 57:40 there's another project for you. Oh, Michael,   Freda Uwa ** 57:46 whoopee, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 57:48 I understand. No, I I appreciate that. It's, it's, that's, it's something, well, you have, you've had a lot of experiences. What do you think, or how do you think your overall life journey has made your mindset what it is.   Freda Uwa ** 58:09 Oh, boy, Michael, is I again, I said I spoke about growing and evolving. So that's the mindset. I am not there yet, like I feel like I'm not there yet. Yeah, I'm still I'm still growing and involved evolving. So it's just not being satisfied or settling for nothing short of the best. I don't like to use the word perfection, but I want to keep going and keep pushing and getting better than my just growing and getting better than yesterday. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 58:46 going and growing. And that's that's important. Well, with that in mind, if you had the opportunity to do it, what would you go back and tell your 10 year old younger self? What would you tell that 10 year old Frida, and what and more important, if you told her, would she listen? But anyway, what would you tell her?   Freda Uwa ** 59:08 She was loud. For sure she was loud. I know she'll be. She was hyperactive, so that I know, so I will let her know one step at a time you have made huge progress. You have made huge progress. I am so proud of you. I am indeed living your dreams, and I'm hoping that I have checked off most of the boxes that you've always wanted to do. So that's what I would say to my 10 year old, Frida, and I hope that she listens to that.   Michael Hingson ** 59:46 Yeah, that's the trick, of course, is with any of us is to to get the younger of us, or younger people in general, to listen all too often we just think we know everything, and it's so difficult to get people to step back and. It's one of the things that I think we really, collectively as a society, need to do a lot more of, which is at the end of the day, at the end of every day, step back. Think about what happened. How can you improve what happened? Even the good stuff, but especially the things that didn't necessarily go as you planned. Step back and look at them and adopt a mindset that you want to teach yourself how to do it better, whatever it is that that is that has got to be a way that we can help get others and ourselves to listen more than we tend to do.   Freda Uwa ** 1:00:33 Mm, hmm, yes, for sure, and and looking to give back as well. Like, are you coaching and mentoring people. So, yeah, yeah. So if there are any freedoms out there, you can always reach out to people that would speak and leave seeds in your hearts of greatness, like see the good in every situation. Like I did, see a good in the conversation that I I heard about that lady or that woman at the time. So that is a good in every situation you meet, right? So you pick the seed that you want, you want, and then water it and nurture it to grow and grow, you always find,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:13 yeah, and I think that we, we can do that. We can do a lot more of that than we tend to do, but I think it's important that we we do our best. And you talked about servant leadership, and it's as much about serving yourself and your soul as it is about being a servant leader to other people. Absolutely. And the thing that we never, well, I won't say we never, but the thing that we don't do nearly as much as we probably could, is listen to our own inner voice that probably has the answers we seek, if we would but learn to listen for them. Mm,   Freda Uwa ** 1:01:45 hmm, absolutely, yeah. And I like I like that to your point, serve yourself too, right? So for seven leaders, serve yourself. Listen to yourself, take those pauses, give yourself credit for all your hard work. And you know, sometimes you get that guilt when you want to spoil yourself. I'm like, Okay, this body made this money, right? So I need to take care of this body. So that's, that's, yeah, that's, that's a way to give yourself some credit, like physical treats, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:17 yeah, physical treats. And not necessarily overdoing it, but physical treats and and mental treats too. This this weekend is a holiday in the United States, and I know that I'm going to take some downtime just to to kind of relax. I think it's important that we all do that all too often when people go on vacations. I'm sure it's true up there too, but it's so true down here, they go on a vacation, they go somewhere, they do a lot of hiking and a lot of work, and when they come back from the vacation, they need a vacation because they work so hard.   Freda Uwa ** 1:02:51 Oh yeah, tell me about it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:55 And it's it's important for us to learn to rest and let our, let our brains recuperate too. Let our, let our mind recuperate. But, you know, yeah,   Freda Uwa ** 1:03:06 it comes I, I needed that. I needed that for sure. It's a long weekend here in Canada as well. Oh yeah, so I'm just going to unplug and take some downtime and recharge, right? So it's needed for sure. It   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:21 is that's that's good. Well, you know this, this has been a lot of fun to do, and I've, I've enjoyed it, and I want to thank you for being on and I want to thank all of you who are listening to us and watching us. We really appreciate you being here. I hope that you've enjoyed what Frida has had to say, if people want to reach out to you and maybe talk with you in some manner or contact you, how do they do that? Hi.   Freda Uwa ** 1:03:47 Oh, so I'm on Instagram and I'm on LinkedIn, Freda Owa , and   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:53 yeah, is UWA, yes,   Freda Uwa ** 1:03:56 UWA, UWA. So that's Frida or right on LinkedIn. And of course, you can reach out to IO Canada website and ask to speak to me. So, yeah. Well, cool. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:12 I hope people will do that. I hope that everyone has enjoyed all of all of our discussions and your insights today, if you did enjoy it, we would really appreciate you. Wherever you're listening to us, give us a five star rating. We value your reviews and ratings very highly. If you'd like to reach out to me, you are welcome to do so. I'm easy to find. You can email me at Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, so I'd love to hear from you. If you know of anyone who you think would be a guest, that we ought to have an unstoppable mindset. Freda to you as well. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest, we want to hear from you. Just before we started this podcast, I received an email from someone who said, I got a great guest. You said, If. I found anyone that I should reach out, and I'm reaching out. I got this great person. So we hope that all of you will will do that, and that you will stick with us, and you'll be back next week to listen to more of or our next episode, more of unstoppable mindset. We really appreciate your time and value the fact that you're here. So once again, Freda, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and we ought to do it again sometime,   Freda Uwa ** 1:05:28 for sure. Thanks for having me, Michael, and good luck, and very well done. Job with the unstoppable mindset.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:05:40 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

“I don't think anyone pushes like a VBAC mom pushes.”In this episode, we chat about premature rupture of membranes (PROM) with Noel, a stay-at-home mom from Texas, as she shares her personal experiences and successful VBAC story. We dive deep into the importance of finding a supportive provider and the realities of induction. Noel was never able to fully dilate during her first birth. She and Meagan talk about the impact of meaningful milestones (like reaching 10 centimeters!) during a VBAC labor. Also, it's never too early to hire your doula!Premature Rupture of MembranesPreterm and Term Prelabor Rupture of MembranesNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. It is March which means it is my second C-section baby's birth month. I love March so much because it's also when the sun starts feeling a little bit warmer, and you start hearing some birds chirp. We're kind of getting to that spring season, depending on where you are. Let's be honest, I'm in Utah, so it's still probably snowing every day in March. But I love March so much. And we're kicking it off with a really great episode. We have our friend, Noel. Hello, Noel.Noel: Hi.Meagan: I am so excited for her to be on today. She is actually in Texas, and tell us where again in Texas.Noel: The Woodlands, Texas. It's right near Houston.Meagan: Okay, perfect. And this is where you had your baby?Noel: No, so I actually had my baby in Dallas. That's where we were living at the time.Meagan: You were in Dallas. It says it right here on your little form. Okay, so she was in Dallas, you guys. So Dallas peeps or really just Texas peeps or really anybody. We know people travel for support and things like that. This is definitely a story to listen to. And then we are going to be talking a little bit about PROM. If you haven't ever heard about PROM, PROM is P-R-O-M and that means premature rupture of membranes, which means your water breaks, but labor doesn't really start, so it breaks prematurely to labor beginning.There's also PPROM, premature rupture of membranes, which means your baby is preterm. So we're going to dive into that in just a minute. But I wanted to tell you a little bit more about Noel. She is a stay-at-home mom with two boys. One is 3.5 and one is 5, so it's been a little bit since she had her baby. She actually submitted a while ago. We found this and I was like, I really want to talk about this because one, we talk about PROM, two, we talk about finding a supportive provider, and three, we talk about induction. I think it's important to note that if VBAC is more ideal without induction stereotypically, but it is still very, very possible with induction. I think there are so many people who are told that it's not possible out there or don't think it's possible or think that the risk is just astronomically increased when it comes to induction, and that's not true. So Noel has been doing lots of great things. In fact, she just told me a fun thing. She just started a company. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?Noel: Yeah. So we just started a travel agency. It's called Noel Mason Travel, and I'm specializing in Disney. I love Disney, Disney cruises, Universal, all-inclusives, and then eventually just catch-all travel.So yeah. I'm excited. Meagan: Love it. Fun fact about me that you might not know, and it's even more about my husband, we're a big Disney family. In fact, we just went to Disney World for the second time this year. We just got back literally two days ago.Noel: Oh my gosh. We're about to go.Meagan: We love Disney World so much. And my husband is a die-hard Disney fan.Noel: It's so fun.Meagan: It's exciting.I was just told recently by a friend that we definitely need to try a cruise, so maybe we need to connect. But yes, if you guys are looking to take your family to Disney World, definitely reach out to Noel. Of course, you can ask VBAC questions. Noel: Yeah.Meagan: Okay, so I'm going to go back. In addition to starting a travel agency, she loves cooking and is very passionate about pregnancy. She actually started an Instagram documenting her VBAC journey. In addition to fun and travel, I wanted to see if you could tell us more about your Instagram page where people can go and follow that page from when you were doing that.Noel: Yeah, so it's called Docnoelmason. I'm obviously not a doctor, it was just kind of a joke. But I created that Instagram at a time when I was grieving my first birth. After therapy, I realized how important it was for me to just talk. It didn't matter if anyone was listening. I just wanted to talk and educate. I created this Instagram basically just to educate my friends, none of them who were pregnant yet, on how to avoid a C-section, C-section recovery, if you have one. It was just a video diary. There's so much content of me just sitting on the couch to my camera, ugly views, just talking about what was currently going on.Meagan: I love that. I think that's going to be something that people will connect with because that's where we're all at. We just want to sit there and hear where someone else who's going through the exact same thing is. I just feel like we connect so much and that's why I love our community on Facebook, and I love this podcast, and of course, we love our Instagram pages and things and hearing everybody connect. We've been told that people have made actual friendships through this community. It's so awesome. So thank you for sharing that. We will have all of the links for the Instagram page and her new travel agency in the show notes if you are interested in checking that out. We do have a topic of the week instead of a review of the week. If you're just joining us, we have, for so many years, done a review every single week where people comment and leave reviews, and we share them. We're still loving those, and we're still sharing those. So if you haven't yet, leave us a review on the podcast. It really does help us so much in so many ways and truly helps other Women of Strength just like you find the podcast. You can check that out at Google. You can Google "The VBAC Link" or on Apple or Spotify or wherever you're listening to your podcast, leave a review. It'd be greatly appreciated. But today, we do have a topic of PROM. So like I mentioned, Noelle had PROM. I had PROM. She's gonna tell you more about her story of PROM. And I've shared my story a million times about PROM, but they say 10% of pregnancies will have PROM, premature rupture of membranes. I was 3 for 3. It just happened for me. That can be sometimes hard because water breaks, and what do we do? I mean, Noel, what were you told to do if your water broke? Did anyone say anything?Noel: With the first pregnancy, I was told to go straight to the hospital. Don't delay. Get there immediately. With the second pregnancy and a better team, I was told, "Just keep doing what you're supposed to do." Walk if you want to, but just act like nothing's happened.Meagan: Go carry on with normal life.Noel: Carry on. Yeah.Meagan: Yes. That is definitely something that we would suggest. Now, there are certain things that we want to watch out for. If our water breaks and it's green, nasty, meconium-stained, it might be a reason to go in to your provider or call your provider and have a discussion with them. There's prolapsed cord. That can happen, and that is a very serious situation where we need to get on our head and get our butt in the air and get to the hospital. If there is a cord coming out after your water breaks, it is an emergency situation and is not something to just hang out and carry on with normal life. But when water breaks, what I was instructed to do with my third pregnancy, also like you with a better team, a more educated self and I had doulas and midwives and everybody. It was your water breaks, you do a little check-in. What does the color look like? Okay, is it clear? How are you feeling? Do you feel like you have a fever? Do you feel flu-like symptoms? Maybe take your actual temperature and see if you have a temperature. Okay. We don't have a temperature. We're not contracting. All is well. Put a pad on. It's probably going to keep coming. Just to let you know, you will keep leaking and then keep going. Keep going. Now, it is important to know that it can take hours. I'm serious. Hours and hours for labor to start. And Noel's going to share her story in a second. But for me, it really took 18 hours until I was really going with my second. And then with my first, I actually started contracting soon-ish. So it might not be technically PROM, but I started cramping and contracting, but it really took until 12 hours for me to even be 3 centimeters dilated which was very normal as a first-time mom. Know that if your water breaks, it is not like, run to the hospital. We're having a baby right this second. You're gonna have a baby in the car. It's not always like that when your water breaks and contractions aren't starting. So just to let you know, about 95% of all births will occur within 28 hours of PROM when it happens at term at 37 weeks. Now, PPROM is, like I said, preterm premature rupture of membranes. That is something that you will probably want to go in for if your baby is preterm. That happens at about 3% of pregnancies. I just think it's important to note that it happens. Noel and I are proof of that. If it happens, it doesn't mean run. You don't have to run to the hospital. You don't have to think you're having a baby right this moment, but it's something I suggest checking in with your provider about beforehand saying, "If my water breaks, what would you suggest?" They might suggest go straight to the hospital. We know it's not necessarily what you need to do, but at least you know your provider's suggestions. Okay. All right, we are going to take a quick break for the intro, and then we're going to get into Noel's story. All right, Ms. Noel. I have taken so much of your time already, so thank you so much for talking PROM with me. Yeah, let's turn the time over to you.Noel: Okay. So with my first birth, I was the first of my friends to get pregnant and I just had this very fairytale view of pregnancy and birth. I really just knew what happened in movies. So like you said, the water breaks, it's water everywhere, and you run to the hospital. I just had no idea what to expect. I had listened to some birth stories enough to know that getting a doula would be important, but at the time, I thought that is way too expensive and something that I, in my first pregnancy, don't need which is so silly looking back now, especially with my C-section bill being what it was "too expensive". It would have saved me a lot of money. But yeah, I did no techniques like Spinning Babies, no chiro, no PT. I just felt very unprepared. And looking back now, I think my doctor really preferred it that way. I think she didn't ever push me in that direction. I also had SPD and it basically felt like a knife was jamming up anytime I would walk. And again, my doctor never pushed me in any direction. She just said, "Rest when you can." That was awful. I was also told I had an anterior placenta which is a weird thing to remember, but I remember being a little bit scared by that. I guess that's why I logged it. They told me there was no risk to having one. It didn't really matter. But now looking it up, of course I know that can really affect the position of your baby. So flash forward to my growth scan. No surprise, I was told that he was sunny-side up. Of course, I asked, "Is there anything I need to do? Does that matter?" And the doctor said, "No, totally fine. Doesn't matter." You'll have a healthy Baby. So I said, "Okay." They found my fluid was low on that scan as well. Of course, I didn't ask what the level was. I just said, "Okay." They said, "We want to induce you in the next few days." So again, I was so excited to have this baby out. With my first one, I was like, let's get it on the books.Meagan: That's very common.Noel: Yeah. Yeah. So many of my friends I see doing the same thing. Again, you just don't know any better. You're ready to not be pregnant. We scheduled it for July 3rd, which again, I think was a huge mistake a day before a holiday. But again, I wasn't really thinking. I was put on Pitocin. I was already a little bit dilated, put on Pitocin and I was dilating about a centimeter every hour. Pretty uneventful. I would have to move positions. The baby's heart was acting up a little bit, but nothing really to worry about. I got to 9 centimeters. They brought out the table, all the fun vacuum forceps, and I was ready to go. That was probably 4:00. Well, every hour they kept coming in and checking me, and I was still a 9. So a couple hours into that, my doctor came in and said, "We're going to have an emergency C-section." That was that. No questions, just this is what's happening.Meagan: Can I ask why they called an emergency? Was baby struggling or did they just use the emergency to justify as being a Cesarean?Noel: Yeah, I think at the time of day, "Let's get this baby out of you before it's midnight. We want to go home." But no, aby was fine. Like I said, the heart was acting up a little bit, but no one was concerned. She just said, "This is too long to be dilated like this and not have any movement." Again, a first-time mom, I was just like, okay. I remember crying. My mom's crying. I'm crying. We're both just a little nervous about what's about to happen. The doctor came in and sees us crying and goes, "Don't worry, I'm going to have you back in that bikini by the end of summer." It still just has stuck with me what a routine moment this was for her and not a big deal to her. She just thought I would be worried about my body. It was just so ridiculous. The birth was fine. You know, we talked about the Bachelorette. It just was not what I thought would happen as they were operating.Meagan: During your birth?Noel: During my surgery, both the JOBs are talking about the Bachelorette, and I'm chiming in, and I'm just thinking, this is not what I had planned. This is not the moment I envisioned. It was really weird. So that next morning I'm recovering and my mom comes in and is like, "Hey, I don't know if you know, but one of my friends had a VBAC after her C-section with her second baby. She had a VBAC." And I asked her what a VBAC was and we talked about it. Right then I decided, this is what I'm going to do. I'm not doing this again. I am not doing this again. I'm going to have a VBAC. Flash forward about a year, I decided we would get pregnant again or would start trying, and we got pregnant right away. Thank God. In this time, I happened to find this article on Google listing hospitals to avoid for C-sections in the United States. Yep. You know, the article. Mine was number eight. Number eight. I could only laugh at that point, like, okay, all right. This time I'm going to be doing my research.Meagan: Yeah.Noel: So when it came to choosing my provider, I really felt like that was the biggest thing that could set me up for success. I knew I wanted to have the baby in a hospital again. I wasn't sure if it was going to be with a midwife or OB. I joined a Facebook page. It wasn't ICAN, and it was a group our of Dallas. It was a C-section Awareness Group, the Dallas page. There was a supportive OB who was mentioned there.  I had an appointment with him and he was fine. Nothing to write home about. This was also during COVID, so all of those rules were in place and work mattered. I also started searching for a doula at 8 weeks because I just figured, if I'm going to have one, let's have one. I'm going to have them the whole time. One of those doulas suggested moving practices to a group called Dallas Midwife Associates, and now they're Midwife and Co. They are known for supporting VBACs, and the hospital that they deliver in Baylor is also known for just being a very VBAC-supportive hospital. So I switched to that group, and the coolest thing about them is you see a different midwife every appointment you go to. They just cycle you. So by the time you're ready to have your baby, you know everyone on the team. They all know you. You're not worried about your provider being on vacation. There's no pressure for induction or anything. They were so amazing and awesome cheerleaders. The OB who they are in practice with who would do a C-section if I needed one or became high-risk and had to go see him, he was also supportive. So that was awesome. I could not recommend them highly enough. But yeah, just preparing this time, I think, being so clear with myself about why I wanted this VBAC. For me, it was the biggest thing at the time was the recovery. My kids were going to be 21 months apart, and I did not see how I was going to be able to have a baby and another baby if I can't lift up the first one. He was still in a crib. I didn't see how that was going to work. And so the recovery was super important to me. The experience was important to me. I wanted to do everything in my power this time to know that if I had a C-section, it was a true emergency, and that I could look back on that birth and say, "Well, this is what was supposed to happen. This is why C-sections exist," and not, "Oh, gosh, I could have done XYZ differently this time." I also had the SPD again and was not about to let that fly. With a toddler, you're constantly moving, so I couldn't be in pain all the time. I went to go see a chiropractor. I went to physical therapy. They both recommended Spinning Babies as well as my doula. So I did Spinning Babies. I was kind of crazy about it. The whole don't recline more than 90 degrees, the flashlight trick thing, that was everything to me. So 30 weeks on, you would not catch me reclining. I sat with the best posture or just laid flat on the couch because I was not about to have a sunny-side-up baby.Meagan: I can totally relate to that. I didn't sit on a couch. I didn't even sit on a couch because I was like, I'll sink too much and it will turn my pelvis in. I remember driving all back up and pelvis tucked forward.Noel: On the tip of your chair.Meagan: On the tip of my chair not wanting to have a posterior baby at, all. And then I got one.Noel: It just shows you-- yeah, exactly. You're not really in control of it. I asked about my placenta this time. Again, that's nothing you can prevent, but I knew I had lower chances if it wasn't anterior. That was good for me to know that if it was, I would need to work even harder. I don't know how I could sit up any straighter, but do my best. And then I also had what's called an overactive uterus. I guess I just had constant Braxton Hicks. Google would tell you to go into the hospital, you are in labor. So many Braxton Hicks. My belly was just constantly hard. So because of that, I didn't do any of the tea. That would make it worse. Anytime I tried, I would have more Braxton Hicks.Meagan: Because it's a uterine toner. So that's what it is. It is made to help a uterus that is contracting be more efficient. If your uterus is hyperactive already contracting, it's going to try and make it contract.Noel: Yeah, it would go nuts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I did do the dates. I'm a big believer in the dates. Plus they taste awesome. So there was really no harm in that. Okay, so flash forward. It's 38 weeks. I was off and on higher blood pressure. But on that day, I had a reading of 137/95. They began to get a little worried and just said, "Okay, you should monitor this at, home that whole week, and then at 39 weeks, we can figure out if this is still a problem." They did mention an induction if the blood pressure continued to rise or stay the same. I came in at 39 weeks. I was planning on not getting my membranes swept. I wasn't into the risk of that, but with the induction looming, I guess I should say. They did test my blood pressure that day, and it was 137/100. The protein in the urine was negative, but they were still a little worried because it wasn't really going down. I went out to the parking lot. I called my doula, and we decided that I would get swept at that point. The induction was just going to be a few days away, so we figured the risk was probably worth it at that point and went ahead to get checked for how dilated I was. I really wanted to start with the Foley bulb instead of Pitocin if it was possible, but they ended up finding I was 4 centimeters dilated and 70% effaced. Meagan: Okay, that's great.Noel: It looked like I was ready to go. I got swept that same day. Again, I said this was COVID, and the shots had been out for like a month. I found a place for my husband to go get a COVID vaccine because I was crazy pregnant, hormonal, and I kept hearing all these horrible stories about husbands not being able to be in the birth because of them having COVID or something. He's a Baylor sports fan, and Baylor been awful for forever but happened to make it to the national championship that day and that night. He was like, "I don't want to feel sick for this game. I'm not going to get it." Of course, me being almost 40 weeks pregnant could have cared less how he felt and if he was going to feel sick, so the poor guy gets his shot. I'm having contractions at that point, thinking that it worked. So I'm walking around the living room like we're about to have this baby, and he starts shaking and drops his water. Glass shatters all over the ground. He came down with a 104 fever in the middle of this game he has been waiting for his whole entire life. I'm contracting. It was so stressful. So I called my neighbor and was like, "Hey, I think I'm having this baby tonight. I might need you to drive me to the hospital. I don't know if Luke's going to be able to be there." I mean, he was in bed, not okay. Awful, huh? It was so awful. I was just praying, "Lord, I know I've been asking for this baby to come, but please, please, please, can you stop all of this?" I woke up, and completely, everything had stopped. So thankfully, his fever went away throughout that next day. My doula recommended I go to get acupuncture. I thought acupuncture was the same thing as acupressure. I was expecting to go in for a massage.Meagan: Yeah, very different. Very different.Noel: Very different. Very different. I was a little freaked out by all the needles. The next morning I woke up and thought, "Oh, crap, that didn't work. What was the point?" That morning was the 8th. I had an appointment later that day to talk about the induction. I dropped off my son at school. I always heard on this podcast, labor will start when you put your kid to bed or they go to school. I always thought that was so funny. I didn't think it would be me. I dropped off my son at school. I go to my chiropractor's office, and I text my doula and I'm like, "I think my thighs are wet. I feel like maybe my water broke." But, you know, there's so much nasty stuff going on down there at the end of pregnancy. I kind of talked myself out of it. I went to the bathroom and was like, no, I'm just not in control my bladder anymore. I don't know what's going on. On the whole drive home, I just felt more and more liquid. And then getting out of my car, my neighbor and I were getting out at the same time, and I start walking and could just feel more and more wetness. I just stopped and waited for him to go inside. And finally it hit me like, okay, this is my water. Yeah. So I called my midwives and my doula and everyone said, "Just continue doing what you're doing. Everything looked normal. The liquid was clear. I really did not want to be induced. They knew that. My doula knew that." So that whole day, I did everything I could. I did curb-walking. My doula gave me a circuit to work on. I did the Spinning Babies, and nothing happened. My blood pressure was still high, so they wanted to see me that afternoon to do a stress test to make sure the baby was okay and check on blood pressure again. So I went in, did the stress test, baby was fine. But they said, "We'd like you to go to the hospital tonight around 9:00 if nothing has started." Nothing started, so I was upset. But again, I trusted my team and that was the difference here. They were still great with me having a VBAC with Pitocin. There was never a moment where they considered not letting that happen. So I got to the hospital, asked if I could labor until 3:00 AM and just see if it started. Didn't start. They got me on that Pitocin. And at this point, I was still hoping to do things as natural as I could while being in the hospital. I was really hoping to avoid an epidural. I again was not happy about the risks of an epidural, but those Pitocin contractions really were coming on strong. I remember going and trying to labor on the toilet and sitting on the toilet and feeling and hearing what felt like a bowling ball, like a dunk, and I think it was probably the baby settling into a better position. At the time, I hated it. I hated that feeling. I literally looked around and was like, "Did you guys hear that?" It felt internally so loud. At that moment, the contractions started coming on even stronger than before. At this point, it had been 24 hours without sleep. I was not taking the contractions well. I said, "Let's do a check. If I am an 8 or higher, I'm having this baby with that epidural. If not, we'll see what happens." I was still a 4. And so again, I don't think I would recommend it if you would like to go without an epidural. Don't get checked. Just don't get checked. I knew that. I knew that, but it was a different moment when I was actually in labor. So the upside is I was finally able to rest whenever I got that epidural. A couple hours later, I was a full 10 and ready to go. They had me labor down for a little bit, but I will never forget that moment as a VBAC mom when they told me I was out a 10 having never gotten to the 10. Oh, I get chills just thinking about it. It was so special. I labored down for an hour. They turned down the epidural. I could not feel my legs. And so again, Baylor is a teaching hospital. So I had a nurse in training, I guess I had my midwife and then they had a midwife in training at the time, and then husband and my doula all in my room just surrounded. My husband hates it when I say this, but it was the feminine energy. It was just so amazing. Everyone was so hyped and excited for me. I don't think anyone pushes like a VBAC mom pushes. I felt like I was in a throw up. I had this ugly rag on me, but I could have cared less. I was just so excited to get to push. The baby came out with my first. My first baby was 7 pounds-12 ounces, 21 inches long, a normal-sized baby. This baby came out and was 10-pounds, 4-ounces, and 24 inches long. I grew a mega-baby compared to this first one. It was just so great. I didn't do the growth scan with this baby because I was so afraid that if they told me that the baby was big that I might be tempted to get a C-section or scared out of having a VBAC. I knew our bodies were made to do this. No matter how big this baby is, my body can do it. So yeah, that was that.Meagan: Oh my gosh, that is amazing. I am so grateful that you had that team and that energy because that energy is so important, and I do believe that it helps us VBAC moms, and really any mom get through that end stretch that sometimes can be intimidating or it can be longer, and then I love hearing that you got to not only have your VBAC, but then it was like, "Not only did I VBAC, I VBAC'd with a baby that was almost three pounds heavier, bigger than my other baby." So many Women of Strength listen to this podcast. I'm sure you've seen it in your forums. People don't believe that they can do it because our providers and our system tell us we can't because we go through these growth ultrasounds and they create some fear. I love that. I love it so stinking much. That's so amazing. Congratulations.Noel: Thank you. Thank you. It was amazing.Meagan: Are there any other tips that you would suggest in you finding a provider or dealing with PROM and not getting frustrated? I think it said one of the best tips that you would give to someone was making sure your provider and the providers they work with are not just VBAC-friendly, but they're really supportive. Do you have any tips to that?Noel: Yeah. That is, again, what I always tell my friends because if your team doesn't trust that you can do this, that's going to really set you up for failure. I just know so many people who are like, "Oh yeah, I asked my doctor if I could have a VBAC after my C-section and they said, "Sure, we'll just see how this will go, and my heart drops." I'm like, this is not going to go well.Meagan: Actually, that's a red flag.Noel: It's a huge red flag. It's a huge red flag. Yeah. I know me who can be a warrior. It was really important to me that everyone who would be around me was supportive because if I had one person come in there and try to poke my bubble, it could start getting in my head and that I don't need that. So, yeah.Meagan: Yeah. Not even just your providers, but your team and your atmosphere around you. I mean, sometimes in that end of pregnancy when we're being told, "Oh, you why haven't had a baby yet?" or "Your baby's gonna get too big," especially if they were ever given a diagnosis of CPD where their pelvis is too small or anything like that, the things that people say can really get into our mind, so we have to protect that bubble and not let anyone try and poke it and pop it because you deserve to feel safe, love, supported, heard in that bubble.Noel: I think listening to the podcast. I listened to this podcast every single day while I would walk with my firstborn. That helped give me the security. I knew, okay, this other mom had this story that's similar to mine. I can do this. If she could do this, I could do this. So it didn't matter whenever I had people come in who had no idea what a VBAC was try to talk me out of it. You have no idea what you're talking about. I have equipped myself with so many other women's stories. Meagan: You're like, "I actually do."Noel: Yeah, right. I'm Dr. Noel Mason. I know it.Meagan: So yeah, I love that. I am Doc Noel. Another thing that I pulled out from your story was you reaching 10 centimeters and having that feeling and not even maybe realizing how badly you needed to get to that point or hear those words. They're just milestone markers. I was in that too. I needed to get past 3 centimeters because I was told that my body couldn't. Once I was past 3 centimeters, it was like, okay. Okay. Even though I knew in my mind I could dilate past three centimeters, I knew I could. There was still this weird hang up, so once I heard that number past 3 centimeters, I can't explain to you this utter relief and aha moment of like, okay. It gave me this surge of power and strength to hear these words. I think it's really important while we're preparing for our VBAC to process our past births and realize what might be triggering and what might be milestone markers that help encourage you and communicate that with your team. Let them know, "You guys, I have never made it past 9 centimeters. I hung out there forever. I was told I needed an emergency C-section. The number 10 is going to be a big deal for me. I need you guys to help me with that," or whatever it may be. Or, "I really don't want this to happen. Can you help me avoid this?" I think communicating with our team comes with preparing for a VBAC, but also processing things mentally and understanding those big moments that you need is okay to be like, "Yeah. That actually was a big deal for me. This is a big deal for me." My water breaking was a trigger for me. But then to hear that my body could get past 3 centimeters on its own was a huge deal. So I just love that you were like, "I felt that," because I could just really remember back when I felt that moment, of like, yes, yes, I can.Noel: I can do this.Meagan: I can do this. And Women of Strength, as you're listening, I want you to know you can do this. Noel and I are two of thousands and thousands and thousands and hundreds on this podcast who have come before you who have done it. It is possible, but you do have to set yourself up in all the right ways. We know even then, sometimes you can do everything right and still not have the outcome that you want, but our goal here at The VBAC Link is to help you have a better experience. So getting that information, building your team, finding that supportive provider, all of that, and then also knowing your options if a Cesarean is needed, I just think it's so important to know that you deserve it. You can do it. You are worth it. You are worth it. And like Noel mentioned in the beginning, I didn't hire a doula because of costs. I just thought it could be by myself, and then she had this massive Cesarean bill. Sometimes these doulas or education courses or whatever, going to PTs and chiropractors may seem like it's too much financially or you can't do it, but in the end, it really pays off. I'll tell you, there's not a single day in my life that I look back and be like, I can't believe that I went to this two chiropractors and paid this much for that, paid for my doulas, paid for an out-of-hospital birth. I never even questioned that. That money was well spent. Even if I didn't have a VBAC and had to transfer and have a Cesarean, it still would have been well spent because I had a better experience. I felt empowered. I'm also going to plug Be Her Village. I'm sure you guys have heard me talking about it before. I love that company. If you are in that situation where you don't feel like you can financially do it, go register for Be Her Village. You guys, it's a registry for doulas and postpartum and PT and chiropractor and all these things. It's a place where you can go because I'm sure Noel will say it's worth it.Noel: Definitely. Yes, definitely.Meagan: Yeah. And hire a doula early on. I think having a doula early on in your pregnancy who can literally walk through this journey with you is so powerful. It might not be something where you talk to her every day. It might not be like that, but having that person in your corner, I love that you were able to go outside and call and be like, "This is a situation. Let's walk through it," and have that sounding ear and extra opinion and in the end supporting you in whatever you decided, and you decided together that you wanted to do that.I think it's so, so powerful. So as a reminder also, we have a whole registry of VBAC doulas. You can go to thevbaclink.com/findadoula. They are literally trained in VBAC and know the options and want to help you navigate that. Any other tips that you have?Noel: No, but thinking of the doula thing, again, at eight weeks, that is so important. I know a lot of people are like, "I don't even know if this baby is viable yet." I don't even think I had had my first--Meagan: Ultrasound?Noel: Yeah, yeah. I had no idea. But if it weren't for interviewing those doulas, I probably would have stuck with that original provider that I had in mind and gone the whole pregnancy with them. Because if they would have told me to switch at 20-something weeks and my provider was fine and supportive, there would have been no reason to switch. I'm so glad I talked to them when I did.Meagan: Yes. Oh, that is such a powerful thing to remind people of because doulas know the area. Doulas work with these providers all the time. It's outside of our scope to be like, "This provider is garbage. Don't go," or tell you what to do exactly. But at the same time, and maybe it's not really outside of our scope to say that. Maybe it's not really. It's maybe just not appropriate to be like, "This is garbage." But at the same time, we can be like, "Hey, this is what I've seen. I would encourage you to check these people out also. Hey, here are some questions to ask for your provider."Noel: Yes.Meagan: I love that. The doulas know the providers in the area, and they can help guide you through what really is that supportive provider.Noel: Yeah. And supportive hospital or birth center, whatever. They know. They've been there. They have been to more than we have. Yeah. Yeah.Meagan: Yeah. There is a hospital here in Utah that anytime someone wants to VBAC, at first, for a long time, I was like, "Okay, you know, just do whatever feels best," until I saw too much and now I was like, "Listen, I'm gonna be straight with you, and you don't even have to hire me if you don't like my honesty. But if you want a VBAC, you're going to the wrong place."Noel: That's powerful.Meagan: I have said that. You're going to the wrong place. Trust these people. They know. They've seen it. They're there. They're really there.Noel: Yeah. Yeah.Meagan: Yes. Okay, well thank you so much again for your time today and your stories and congratulations on your cute, chunky baby.Noel: Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

So there I was, wide awake at 5:15 AM in FREAKING NEW ZEALAND (yes, we're still traveling—more on that later!) with this message practically BURSTING out of me. My body was like, "Andee, get up RIGHT NOW and talk to your people!" So here I am, messy bun and all, coming in hot with some truth bombs about parenting that literally changed my entire life.The Big Juicy Secret I Can't Keep Anymore:Who you're BEING matters waaaaay more than what you're DOING as a parent.Think about it—you could say "time to wake up" with the exact same words but completely different energy:Option A: Frazzled, irritated, rushing (we've ALL been there)Option B: Grounded, present, compassionateSame words, totally different result! And guess what? Your kids have these amazing things called mirror neurons that pick up your emotional vibe INSTANTLY. They're like little emotional WiFi receivers!

Block — the company formerly known as Square — with the ticker XYZ — formerly SQ — is the focal point of this week's Tech Corner. George Tsilis dissects the fintech stock's latest earnings and the company's various business segments including Cash App, Tidal and Square.======== Schwab Network ========Empowering every investor and trader, every market day.Subscribe to the Market Minute newsletter - https://schwabnetwork.com/subscribeDownload the iOS app - https://apps.apple.com/us/app/schwab-network/id1460719185Download the Amazon Fire Tv App - https://www.amazon.com/TD-Ameritrade-Network/dp/B07KRD76C7Watch on Sling - https://watch.sling.com/1/asset/191928615bd8d47686f94682aefaa007/watchWatch on Vizio - https://www.vizio.com/en/watchfreeplus-exploreWatch on DistroTV - https://www.distro.tv/live/schwab-network/Follow us on X – https://twitter.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/schwab-network/About Schwab Network - https://schwabnetwork.com/about

In this episode, Stefan Boettcher, Founder and Director of QLICK.XYZ, joins Dots Oyebolu to explore the world of performance marketing for startups. Stefan shares his journey from agency work to running his own business, highlighting the key challenges startups face in paid marketing.Key Takeaways:(06:20) Common pros and cons of startup performance marketing.(08:41) Challenges of bootstrapped vs. funded startups.(9:38) Startups may have a great product, but extensive customer education is required, which can slow down conversion rates.(13:24) Mistakes startups make and the best practices for landing pages in PPC.(18:19) The rule of thumb in performance marketing: getting the right traffic, as well as conversion optimization.(25:08) Seasonality and its significant role in marketing.(25:57) No matter how great a product is, a poorly converting website renders ad spend ineffective.(27:25) Diminishing returns in scaling and understanding that increasing ad spend doesn't always mean doubling leads.Resources Mentioned:Stefan Boettcher -https://www.linkedin.com/in/stefanboettcher/QLICK.XYZ -https://www.linkedin.com/company/qlick.xyz/Insightful Links:https://tuffgrowth.com/performance-based-marketing-for-startups-and-scaleups/ https://www.wrike.com/blog/unlocking-growth-performance-marketing/ https://www.thehartford.com/business-insurance/strategy/startup/marketing https://mailchimp.com/resources/startup-marketing-strategy/ Thanks for listening to the “Marketing Leadership” podcast, brought to you by Listen Network. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review to help get the word out about the show. And be sure to subscribe so you never miss another insightful conversation.#PodcastMarketing #PerformanceMarketing #BrandMarketing #MarketingStrategy #MarketingIntelligence #GTM #B2BMarketing #D2CMarketing #PodcastAds

In this transformative episode, Lesley Logan sits down with Christina Deering, a shaman and business intuitive, to explore how to connect with your highest self, break through money blocks, and align with your soul's purpose. Discover powerful tools like EFT tapping, pendulums, and energy-shifting techniques to help you step into abundance, stop self-sabotage, and confidently charge what you're worth.If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co. And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:How to identify and clear subconscious money blocks.The importance of aligning pricing with your soul's highest good.Using EFT tapping to normalize financial success in your body.How pendulums can help you make intuitive business decisions.Recognizing physical signs from the body that indicate misalignment.The power of shifting energy rather than pushing through resistance.How to remove, delegate, or shift draining tasks.Episode References/Links:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamchristinadeering/Website: www.christinadeering.comFree Gift - 5 Min Energy Reset: https://beitpod.com/energyresetGuest Bio:Christina Deering is a Shaman Healer and Business Intuitive who helps spiritual entrepreneurs scale to 6 figures and beyond!  She's best known for clearing more limiting beliefs and trauma in 1 healing session than decades worth of therapy - opening her clients up to receive manifestations in the form of quantum leaps. Host of the top 10% podcast worldwide: You Unlimited, she's a trailblazer on all things wealth energetics, emotional mastery and unlocking your spiritual gifts for financial success. She's been featured in Forbes and Goss Manifest Magazine, and is an international speaker on creating impact and legacy in alignment with your soul! If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.DEALS! DEALS! DEALS! DEALS!Check out all our Preferred Vendors & Special Deals from Clair Sparrow, Sensate, Lyfefuel BeeKeeper's Naturals, Sauna Space, HigherDose, AG1 and ToeSoxBe in the know with all the workshops at OPCBe It Till You See It Podcast SurveyBe a part of Lesley's Pilates MentorshipFREE Ditching Busy Webinar Resources:Watch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable Pilates Follow Us on Social Media:InstagramThe Be It Till You See It Podcast YouTube channelFacebookLinkedInThe OPC YouTube Channel Episode Transcript:Christina Deering 0:00  Sometimes we get really caught up when we're in our mind, when we're doing something new, and it feels really scary. So when we can start to really tap into our soul by using even like little tools outside of ourselves, this can help us, like a pendulum, or like you were just saying, using your body, it starts to actually allow us to get the validation that we already know.Lesley Logan 0:18  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.Lesley Logan 1:01  All right, Be It babe, get yourself a cozy space to sit in and listen to this. And if you can't, because you're driving or you're working or you're doing a lot of things, that's okay. You're going to want to save this episode, because I am so grateful for our guest today, Christina Deering. I was on her podcast, You Unlimited, and she's just a beautiful soul, and she's such a generous person, like, just generous in everything that she is offering and sharing the knowledge that she has. And in today's episode, I have a notepad of like, notes that I wrote down, either on a book I want to read or on a thing I want to try, on a reminder of a way to do something or a different way of doing something I've already heard about, like chock full of information to help us show up as our best versions of ourselves as a person we want to be of what our soul desires to be. And I know when people say soul or highest self, it's like, ah, this is a little woo for me. It is not. This is your episode, especially for my perfectionist, my overachievers, my people-pleasers. Here is Christina Deering. Lesley Logan 2:00  All right, Be It babe. This is going to be a lot of fun, because I've already had an amazing conversation with our guest today, Christina Deering, and once I had that one on her podcast, I was like, well, you have to come over to mine, because we're not done having an amazing time chatting. So Christina, can you tell everyone who you are and what you rock at?Christina Deering 2:16  Absolutely. Lesley, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to just deepen into this conversation that we had over on You Unlimited. It was so much fun on that podcast. So I'm Christina Deering. I am a shaman and a business intuitive. So I help people scale to six figures and beyond, doing what they love for a living. Lesley Logan 2:33  So fun, but also for the people who have like, what? How do you become a shaman and do all this? Can you take us back a little bit. Where did this get started? Is this something you've always wanted to do? Is this something you fell into?Christina Deering 2:46  Yeah, you know, I joke. I'm like, the sorority girl turned shaman. Like, it makes no sense to me, too. Honestly, if someone had told me that five years ago, 10 years ago, I would have laughed and been like, I don't understand what that means. So essentially, what happened was I worked in marketing for 15 years, and I just kept climbing the corporate ladder and feeling more and more empty. And I recognized that there was just a huge part of me missing. I'm like I want to do something I love. Why don't I love this? I mean, I keep getting more money, promotions, but it doesn't feel good in my body. And so I recognized was there had to be something more. So I ended up kind of starting to follow the breadcrumbs. Like the first breadcrumb was like, what if you were a life coach? You've always been interested in that. What if you just started to work with a life coach and saw what that looked like? And so that was my first step. Was like, oh, working with a life coach that was really supportive. So then I became one and started learning the trade of actually, you know, holding really powerful coaching sessions. And then there was a year of just learning, where it just all these modalities just kept flying my way, where, like, breath work. Let's get certified in that. Reiki is actually a form of Japanese shamanism. So a lot of people are familiar with Reiki, and that is a form of shamanism. And so I was following all these breadcrumbs. And then one of my healers, she's a shaman, and she's like, you're being called into shamanism. How does that feel? And I was like, it feels good in my body, but I have no idea what that means. I don't know. So let's do it. But let me Google that. What is a shaman? And so there's so many different forms of shamanism. You know, you hear of the shamans that use plant medicine. You, you know, essentially, the way that I use and tap into shamanism is I'm just helping people connect to their highest self, connect to their soul. And so I do that through deep healing modalities, through sup porting people and unlocking their intuition and using their body as a tool to better understand what's in alignment with them. So lots of channeling that I do as well, which is like, I can channel your highest self, you know, channel your angels and guides, things like that. So that's the form of shamanism that I play in the most which is just so much fun because there's so much guidance that's available to us. We just have to know how to tune into it. Lesley Logan 4:53  Yeah, it sounds like as a shaman, you can actually help people be it till they see it, because you are unlocking the things that are keeping them from being who they truly are.Christina Deering 5:00  Absolutely. Yeah. And we just need that clarity and that guidance, because for most of us, myself included, I was checking everyone else's boxes, and then I got there, and I'm like, why doesn't this feel good? This was supposed to be, like, the ultimate like, I checked them all what happened? And so it really is about tuning back into like, what do I want? What do I see who do I want to become, and then, oh, how do I get there? And a big part of that is heal what's in the way of what you want. Lesley Logan 5:01  Oh, okay, okay, we have to tap into that. I completely understand. I think a lot of people listening can understand, like, checking all the boxes, climbing the ladder. I had to quit a job before they promoted me again, because I, like, could not stop taking the promotions. You know? Christina Deering 5:42  For sure. Hard to say no. Lesley Logan 5:43  I did two jobs in a row, and I was like, oh yeah. And I like to be helpful. I needed more money, so the promotion meant I could be helpful and get paid more. And then they were like, oh, but I have less time for myself. I'm not happier. I can pay my bills now, but I'm not happier. So this isn't helpful. So I totally understand that. Can you talk about heal what stops us? What are some things that you see are getting in the way of people unlocking their true potential?Christina Deering 6:06  You know, imposter syndrome. They're like, who am I to go after that? Am I allowed to have these big dreams? It's just a dream I can't actually have that. A lot of that negative self-talk that gets in the way of actually going for the thing that they want, because when we can visualize it, we're actually tapping into future timelines. I think people are like, oh, I'm just daydreaming, and it's no, you're tapping into a future timeline. Do you like that? If you do start moving towards it, follow the breadcrumbs and also heal what's in the way. Because the way that I see it is, when we have that visualization, we're tuning into what we want, we see beyond that barrier we've been living in. And then we're like, oh, I want that. We come back in the box we've been living in that barrier, and then we go to go after it, and we hit the wall. We haven't even noticed that we've been living in this self-imposed wall of all the stories we've been collecting from parents, friends, society on what it is that we're allowed to do or not allowed to do, and so from there, it's a lot of what is your unique wall that's here, and where did that come from? And let's start to actually break that down. Sometimes it's from childhood. Some of these codes that we receive from people that we just start operating from. You can either get paid to do something you hate, or you can be a starving artist. That was what I received when I was younger. Sure you can be a singer if you want to be on the streets, you know? And I'm like, well, wait, what? Or you can just get a desk job and be safe. And I had to really start to pull apart that programming. And a lot of it's generational. It's passed down, or, if you believe in past lives, it's even further beyond that. So there's just a lot there, and it's unique to every single person. But ultimately, I think a lot of it is imposter syndrome, and people have a lot of blocks around money, it's like a charged topic. And so I love teaching on wealth energetics for that reason, because I feel like as a collective, we've kind of gotten it wrong about money, and when we think about it as energy, it changes the whole game.Lesley Logan 7:55  Yes, oh my gosh. So all the Pilates instructors that work with us, I coach them on as like, if you under-charge because you think it's going to help you have more clients, you will burn out because you're actually giving the same energy like you're giving your value to them. The only way they can actually give you that energy back is through money. That's the only way. They can't teach you that's not who they are. And when you under-charge, they are paying back 70% of what your energy was. So by the end of the day, of course, you feel exhausted doing the thing that you love, because you set it up where they can't even replace, they cannot repay the energy that you put out like it's not possible because you set it up that way. Yeah.Christina Deering 8:33  Yes, yeah. That's such a potent way to look at it, you know. And I always think about it too, where the price point is an invitation for both of you, where it's an invitation for the other person who's saying yes to it to expand into. Because if the price point is totally neutral, I usually say that room is too small for you, like, if it's just like, oh, whatever, sure, I'll do it. Find a bigger room. As a consumer, you want to step into a portal that's going to expand you and help you evolve. So I, this price point should feel a little bit stretchy for you, because on the other side is a brand new version of you that I feel like we're all trying to get to. So it's really empowering for the person to say, like, actually, let me stretch into that. Let me step into something that's going to expand me versus keep me the same. Right? And then, as the person like you were just saying, as the person who's providing the service, you want to be able to show up with both feet in it. And if we're stretched thin and we're doing 50 different things, we can't serve the way that we know that we're meant to. So this is a way that allows us to really step in with both feet and fully serve the way that we desire to. Lesley Logan 9:35  Yeah, yeah, it's true. I mean, like, I think a lot of people really have a money mindset, because people my age, their grandparents probably were in the Great Depression. So unless they were the rich ones, like my grandfather, wouldn't even wear jeans, because that's what poor people wore. When he was a kid, you're poor, so you wore jeans. So he, as a retired person, wore slacks every day in his house. These stories like money isn't growing on trees or oh, when people get rich, they become terrible people, all these different things that keep us playing really small. And there's actual studies that show that when women make money, specifically, the actual community thrives, because women put the money back into the community. They support other women's businesses. They support small businesses. They give money to people who have it. And so in order for us to have bigger impact. We have to make more money. And then also, like you said, it forces a step into, oh my gosh, if I'm going to charge something that scares me a little bit for that thing that I have to show up even bigger, I'm going to show up even more. I'm not going to just, like, phone it in.Christina Deering 10:34  Absolutely, yeah, and I love talking about that process of expanding your price point and how to actually normalize that in your body, because we have to get our body on board with new price points, and the second our body's on board, I call it normalized success in your body. Everything changes. Lesley Logan 10:49  Okay. Can we talk about, can we dive into that? Because I think people are probably listening and like, in their body, hold on. Because you can talk about, you could write it down a bunch of times, but to say it like your throat kind of closes and you get sweaty palms like that, it's going to come out the wrong way to the person who's hearing it. Christina Deering 11:05  100% because people buy based on energy. So if they feel your energy on the other end of the screen, or in person where you're, like, clenching your butt while you're giving the price point, they're like, I don't know, something feels off. And so what we have to do is it's a two-step process. First, we really have to find the value that we bring into every room we walk into, start to really connect to the value that you bring to life. Like at the end of the day, start journaling. What am I proud of myself for? You know, all the different things that we do every single day. What are the client testimonials? We have to really connect to the value of what we're offering. That's first. Second, this is like number one, the second you decide you want to expand your price point, we have to normalize that in the body. And what I do is I use EFT tapping. So I will tap while I visualize that thing going well, or I will say it out loud. So I'm witnessing this person coming on the call, and we're diving into what it is that she's desiring. And then at the end the call, I share the price point, and I'm tapping the entire time. I'm tapping on my body as I'm visualizing this happening, and what I'm telling my body is it's safe for this visualization to happen. Lesley Logan 12:08  And are you tapping, like, on your your brows? What parts of your body do you tap? Christina Deering 12:12  Yeah. So there's different parts of the body. You could literally go on YouTube and type in Emotional Freedom Technique, or just type in tapping, and you're going to be tapping on your eyebrow, the inside, the outside, under the eye, under the nose. So there's different spots that we're tapping on the body. These are energy meridians that when they're tapped, it brings a calming sensation in the body. So now what I'm doing is I'm coupling a calming sensation with the thing that I'm stretching into. So now I'm telling my body it's safe to do that thing. It's normal. I've already done it in my mind's eye. It's already happened. So when you do make the sale, it feels more like deja vu than it does like, oh God, I just said the price outside of my body, and I'm scared. It's not that. Now you're like, of course, of course. So when someone pays you, it feels like and of course, this has already happened. I do this with every single one of my clients, and it completely changes the game for them.Lesley Logan 13:02  I love that you brought up the value, we have to know what our values we bring into a room. We have to acknowledge that. Because I think a lot of people, when they are figuring out what they charge for their services, or what or their products, whatever they're gonna do, they're thinking, like, what will people pay for this? And then they go, oh, well, in the area that I'm at, this is what people charge for these things. You know, like, I have flashcards, right? And on Amazon, we are very expensive for flashcards. If you look at there's like, stretchy, there's no Pilates flashcards, there's like, stretching flashcards. There's other kinds of things. And they're all like, $25 and ours are $65 to $115 and I have people go, can you maybe we should make a cheaper deck that doesn't have all this stuff. We could just take the picture and the QR code. We could put on a smaller card. We could put on thinner card, like all these different things to do it so we can fit into what the going rate on Amazon for flash cards is. And I was like, you know, I want people to save then for the cards that I have, because the value that my cards bring is more than what we're charging, and it's going to do X, Y and Z thing. So that's what I know, and I'm going to stick with that. But I think if I wasn't sure of the value, if I wasn't clear on what it does, it would be so easy for me to get swept up in that, and then I'd have this product that I'm not excited about, and that energy around is not gonna be great. I'm not gonna put energy behind it to sell it. I'm gonna hope it just does well. When people Google exercise flash cards, you know? Like, it's just gonna be this generic thing.Christina Deering 14:23  I love that, yeah, holding the value, and then it feels like a luxury experience too. Like, when someone's getting the flash cards, they're not just flimsy. They're like, these are really nice. Like, it's like an experience when they're using them, versus, like, let me make it as cheap as possible, so that someone can get it.Lesley Logan 14:38  And then not use it. Christina Deering 14:39  Kind of like, devaluing the whole experience you have with the cards, you know what I mean? Lesley Logan 14:42  Yeah, yeah. And then not use it, because they didn't have to expand to buy it, like you said before. So, okay, so value, tapping and visualizing, and then it feels like deja vu, okay, was it always easy for you to look at money, or did you have to go through this? Did you have to find this block as well? With the money.Christina Deering 15:00  I had to find the block for sure. We grew up where there was an envelope of money that was available for us for the whole week, and that included groceries and anything else that we need bills, and it was like we have $200 this week for the whole family. So be really specific about what you need from the grocery store. You know what I mean? So I just remember that was a big memory that I had to clear was like, the grocery store always felt like a no or like a yeah, you can have it, but now I'm gonna be passive aggressive to you for the remainder of the week, you know. And it was like, This just doesn't feel good, you know. So it didn't feel good to receive, it didn't feel good to ask. There was a lot of energy around that whole experience. So I had to do a lot of clearing around, making money, receiving money, feeling safe with it. And what I think is really actually very fun too, that I like to do for price points is I like to actually connect to my highest self on how to price. So that's something as well that I think one of my favorite things to do is to actually say, like, how does my soul want to price this? You seem really tuned in. You're like, my soul wants to price this deck of cards as XYZ. But for someone who's tuning in, that's, I don't know how to price it. I'm going off of the market. It might be a little bit low. What I always do when I'm thinking about expanding my price or changing my price, which you'll know, the energy will feel a little heavy. If your price point is too low, you'll be like, I don't really want to serve it feels a little bit like resenting doing all this stuff during the day. That's when you know you need to raise your price. I actually use a pendulum to better understand how to price my offers, and I'm happy to dig into that even more.Lesley Logan 16:29  This is so fun. Let's do it. Christina Deering 16:31  Okay, let's do it. So what I do, you can use your body as a pendulum, or you can use an actual pendulum. And I will use the pendulum, and I will ask it two questions that I already know the answer to. So the first question I ask it is, my name is Christina, and then I see how the pendulum moves. So my pendulum will move in a circle. So now I'm acclimated to my pendulum when it's in alignment, to say, yes, is going to move in a circle? Okay, great. So now I'm going to ask it a no question that I know the answer to. So I say I live in New York City, and I don't, I live in Dallas, Texas. So then I see what my pendulum does. My pendulum moves back and forth, and I'm like, okay, now I know what my soul is telling me is a yes or no energetically with my pendulum. So then what I do is I will say, right before I'm going to ask a question, I will say it is for my highest good, and the highest good of all those connected to me, and of the highest vibration to price my offer between $5000 and $10,000. I start with a range and then you see if your pendulum says yes or no. And the reason we start the question that way is because we want it to be the highest good, of course, for everyone involved. But we also want it to be highest vibration too, because sometimes highest good feels like a slap across the face. It's like someone gets sick, but they needed to get sick to remember their health and remember the vitality. And it's kind of that slap across face. So it's like, okay, no, I want it to be both. I want it to be highest good and of the highest vibration. And then you'll just get closer and closer and closer into that price point. Then you'll lock into the price point. Maybe it's $7,777. Great. I've got my price, now I'm going to normalize that in my body, because my highest self wants to price it at that. My body is a little scared. My humanness is a little scared. Then I'm going to do the EFT tapping, normalize that price point in my body. Visualize it going well, and then there you go. Lesley Logan 18:19  Okay, now I have to go buy a pendulum right after this call. I'm really excited about this. I love, so, I actually, if you take your non-dominant hand and you put the thumb and ring finger together and you ask it is my name Lesley Logan and it goes through on you, because that's not your name, it's because that's my name, right? So you have to, and you also have to be very specific. I can't say, like, is Christina here? Because you are on zoom with me, that would be confusing, but is Christina in Las Vegas? No comes right through. So you ask it a series of yes, nos, and you, that you know the answer to, same thing, and then you can actually go, my doctor taught me this because I could go, because I didn't live near her. And I was like, okay, do I need to be taking x supplement? And it will go yes or no, and then okay, so I can stop these today. I need these today. And it is crazy. I could ask myself, like, do I have H. pylori?And it will go no, like, it's, your body knows. So I love this pendulum. And you can use your body as a pendulum, too. It can do the yes, no in that same way. And I like that because you're going off of that. I think a lot of times you get a little heady. So we get out of our soul. We get out of our highest self. I do think we should dive into what highest self is, because I think it's a term that gets thrown around in the woo world. And it can be in the woo it can be in this planet too. We don't get distracted by the stories, because it's like something we feel so deeply called to do. Okay, when you say highest self, what are you thinking?Christina Deering 19:38  Our highest self, based on what I've channeled, that's our soul. So we are tapping into our soul. What does our soul desire most to do? And our goal is to live in alignment with our soul, like our mind is meant to be a humble servant to the soul, to the heart. Let the mind be the humble servant to the heart, to the soul. And so it's like when we come up with the idea, instead of having the brain create all these problems that it needs to solve, instead, let's use the brain to create something with it. Let's use it to create versus destroy. And so I think sometimes we get really caught up when we're in our mind, when we're doing something new, and it feels really scary. So when we can start to really tap into our soul by using even like little tools outside of ourself, this can help us, like a pendulum, or like you were just saying, using your body, it starts to actually allow us to get the validation that we already know. Another way that I talk about intuition is like, it's as simple as flipping a coin and then saying, okay, if it lands on heads, this, if it lands on tails, it's this. When you flip it and it lands, what's your gut response to the actual coin. It's not what the coin is saying. It's a ah, now I have to do that thing. Well, now you have your answer. You don't want to do the thing, right? But if it lands on the thing and you're like, yes, that's your answer. We're just looking for ways to validate what we already know. Lesley Logan 20:56  Yeah, that's a wonderful, wonderful thing. It's kind of figuring out, oh, if you like, have an instant reaction, like, ah, that sucks. It landed on that. That means you didn't want to do it, so now you have your answer. Love it. Christina Deering 21:06  You just need permission sometimes, yeah. Lesley Logan 21:08  And to the perfectionist, just because you said you would do it if it land on tails doesn't mean you have to.Christina Deering 21:13  Right, exactly, right. Yes. It does not mean you have to actually follow your soul, because ultimately, we're placing our order with the universe. every time we say yes. We're like, when I say yes, I want more of this, and then if I say no, I want less of this. But if I'm saying yes to something I don't really like, the universe is like, cool. Let's send her more of it. We have to get really clear on what do we actually want, because the universe will send us more of it when we say yes.Lesley Logan 21:38  Yeah, I, it's really, it's really true. We hate, I hate admitting that, because you start to realize, oh, I have this calling and all that crap that I was going through. (inaudible) yeah, yeah. Oh, can we talk to the perfectionist who are listening? Because we have a lot of those, and they have a hard time. Like, if they told someone yes, they would do something, if they said they would, it's really hard for them to change course. What can we give them to kind of release some of that? My husband had to teach me, it's okay. We told someone to go to that party. They're having the party whether we're there or not. It's okay if we say sorry, something came up, and I'm like, oh my God, what am I gonna, how am I gonna break this to them like I had a hard time, and now, thankfully, we've been married for a long enough time that I'm like, okay, yeah, we gotta change those plans. Let's invite them to dinner on different night. So how can perfectionists let go of that stuff that's keeping them from being their highest self? Because maybe I'm wrong, but I have to imagine, if you are being in perfectionist tendencies, you're probably not in alignment with your soul all the time. Right?Christina Deering 22:32  For sure, absolutely. And recovering perfectionist over here, too. So I would say a couple different things. One, get ahead of the decision next time, be proactive. Tap into your soul. Use your pendulum. Do I really want to go on this trip with friends? Don't really want to go to this dinner and be in connection with your future self? Because sometimes we'll make a decision based on someone else's energy, like we're like, oh my god, they're excited about it. So I'm just going to say yes, even though I don't really want to do it. What would you want to do it in five minutes when you're saying yes to something. Would you want to do it today? Would that feel good to do today? Or is there a party that's like, oh, I actually wouldn't want to do it today or tomorrow? Start to tune in ahead of time. But let's say you've already made the plans. You start to recognize you're just not feeling good, or it's something you just simply don't want to do, the people that are meant to be in your life will understand that. This is what I've come to know is I've now surrounded myself with people where I can say I'm just not feeling good energetically, like I'm tired. I love you so much. Is there any way we can do a rain check? I just want the best of me to be in the space and just share that with that person, the people that are meant to be in your life will absolutely understand that, right? And those that don't have their own work to do around releasing things, letting things go, and sometimes we have to create boundaries around people that are holding us to an impossible standard to uphold. Yeah, right. And so I think that's important too, of just recognizing who's starting to siphon away your energy versus fuel your energy. And you want the people that you're hanging out with to really have it feel like they're fueling your energy. You have vitality when you hang out with them and when you leave, versus you're doing the thing and you feel depleted, and you feel even more depleted afterwards. That's feedback from your soul on what's in alignment and what's not Lesley Logan 22:32  Yeah, yeah. It's really true. I love the idea of getting ahead of things. I think if you have to write them in a note, like of all the different ways, you can buy yourself time until you can get to a place where you can sit down and really, because sometimes we're busy, we got to get back, we feel like we have to get back to people, so we respond quicker, and we're not buying ourselves time. So you can have notes of things you can copy and paste into a text and it buys you some time. I said on the podcast before, we all know that we all have our calendars on our phone. We all know that you and I both that and I still say, oh, that could be really great. Let me check my calendar, because it does take some time to look at the whole calendar. Let me look what's happening before that, what's happening after that, how much is happening in that day. You know, my assistant's job is to make sure I'm not on camera seven hours of a day because that's too much, that's too much of me looking at a green dot. It's more draining than if I was with people for seven hours. I could teach in person seven hours beyond, it's a little bit different. So you've got to have that time. And so you have to buy yourself the time to sit down look at it. How excited are you an hour later when you do look at that? Oh no, actually, that all the efforting to do it doesn't sit well with me. I think that it's really important. And also you're right. You said about the people that were around if they can't understand that maybe they're not the right people, and we have to release ourselves on our job to teach them how to be okay with that. Christina Deering 25:29  100% yeah, I love that and I always think about my to do list. I actually did this for a little while where I felt like I just had way too much to do. I actually created a document that said, okay, write down your task and rate it from one to 10, 10 being total flow state, one being you would rather just do anything, but this task, jump off a building, anything. And so I started recognizing the things that felt in total flow state. And then I recognized the things that were really low on the scale, whereas, like anything five or below, I did one of three things. I would either one, I would trash it, throw it away. Like, sometimes we have a to-do that we just habitually do, but we don't actually have to do it. Do I really need to do that today? Do people die if I don't do this? So sometimes you can easily just trash that to-do if you can't do that, maybe the next is, can you delegate it? Do you have a team member? Can you give it to your partner? Can your kids do it? Can you ask another parent to come up to the school and do the thing? Delegate it. And then the third is, if I can't trash it and I can't delegate it, change the energy in which I'm doing it. So for instance, for me, when I was first starting out my business, contracts, bookkeeping, things like that did not excite me. So what I recognized was, at that moment in time, I couldn't trash it. I couldn't delegate it at that moment in time, so I had to actually change the energy in which I was doing it. So what I did is I would take myself to a coffee shop, I would get matcha latte, and I would sit down, and I would listen to high vibrational music, and I'd be like, okay, I've got an hour here. I can knock this out. This is easy. And then I started training my mind and my body and my spirit like this feels good. This process feels good. So now when I do my bookkeeping and I do my contracts, I don't have to take myself to a coffee shop to do it. I'm like, This feels good. Feels good to be organized. It feels good to get it done. Let's just knock it out. And so that's a good way too, of just starting to kind of train yourself to if you can't throw it away and you can't give it away, start to change the energy in it. Because it's true, our day and the energy that we spend in our day-to-day matters. Let's honor it and let's kind of take a look at what we're doing right now to see how we can honor it even more.Lesley Logan 27:32  I really love that and people know I love it. We have one of our dearest friends, one of my best friends and coaches. When I first met her, the thing that she taught me was like a joy and drain list, and you have to write down everything you have to do. Everything you think you're responsible for in your life. That's personal, professional, all of it. You put it down, and you write on a scale of one to 10, similar thing, and you rate it. And then she's like, okay, if it's under a three, one, two and three, you either have to delete it or delegate it, or we have to figure out what it is. And when you do that, you start to realize, oh, some of the things I was putting as a four or five are really a two, but I just liked a little bit better than this thing over here. I love the idea of changing the energy around it. If you can't get rid of it yet, you can play fun music while you do it. You can change your scene. Like you said, I think that's really cool. It does make it easier. And I had another person I talked to, and I'm like, okay, let's talk about these millionaires. Are they doing the dishes? What's going on? He's like, everyone still has to at least pick up their law. Like, there's still things you got to do in life you don't like to do, but you can change your energy around it. You can change the approach, like, how does this allow you to do X, Y and Z thing? If you don't like contracts, well, contracts actually allow you to show up in your highest light when you go to work with clients and protect you so you're not resentful of the past self that said yes to the thing so you can change your approach around it. I think that's a really brilliant, brilliant tool. I love that. What are you most excited about right now? What are you working on or what are you excited about your life? What can we celebrate with you?Christina Deering 29:01  Yeah, so I just launched a mastermind called Transcendence, which is amazing. This has been on my heart, and it just was one of these intuitive hits where it was like, just go. Because I had a coach that was like, wait for three weeks. I want to guide you into it. And I'm like, my body is telling me you have to go now. Don't ask questions, just go for it. There's people here that you need to support, that are desiring to step into a portal, that they can make six figures and beyond in their business, just go for it. You don't have to ask for permission from anyone. So it was a very beautiful, intuitive process of launching Transcendence. There's so many incredible women who have stepped into the portal itself. And I'm so excited and grateful for these incredible coaches that are in the space and entrepreneurs that are in the space. It's a beautiful mix of entrepreneurs that are looking to scale. But what I really loved about this launch is I actually ended up doing it totally differently as well, where anything that felt heavy, I just put it down. So emails for me, I was like, it's 9 pm at night. I don't want to send out a bunch of emails, so I'm just not going to, and this was one of the best launches I've ever had in my entire business, because everything about it was in alignment. I wasn't pushing, I wasn't forcing. It was just like, what feels good? Follow the energy. Because there's a reason why it feels good. Your soul is giving you a ping to follow it. And so I just kept following the pings, and then it just was, like, creating itself and magnetizing in the women that are in the space. So I'm so excited to serve in that container. The women are incredible. And it just blows my mind that we launched two weeks ago and there's already, like, over 10 women in the space, and it's like, okay, let's go. Lesley Logan 30:37  That's amazing. Christina Deering 30:38  Yeah, it's really powerful. Lesley Logan 30:40  What you've brought up a couple of times, and I think there's a push and a pull right? Like you can push, and sometimes we have to push, but really whenever we're pushing, it's all effort and it's just a lot. And when you're pulling, guess if you're pulling at the gym, you're like Lesley, that's a row. But actually the energy is pulling with you, like you're drawing things in with another way of thinking about the word pull. And so it's what you are doing is, is not doing the things that felt heavy so you could do the things you're being pulled to do, and that was drawing more people into that energy and that space. And I can attest, like, whenever I've done a lot of pushing in the business, some of the people that we attract are the people that let us push them into it and not necessarily pull them into it.Christina Deering 30:40  Yeah, absolutely, yeah, you're attracting a different client when you're pushing versus when you're just pulling, just letting it magnetize in, and then it just feels so good on all sides. Lesley Logan 31:28  Yeah, I have one more question for you that just came up as you were talking. You know, for people who are, they're hearing us, they're like, yes, I want to be with my highest self. I want to be in my soul's alignment. But also that can feel far and away. They spent a lot of time kind of out of alignment, years even. And they've got kids or other responsibilities. Their parents are that they have to take care of them. Can you talk about some signs in the body that might be evidence that they are needing to get more in alignment? What are they might be feeling? Because sometimes we don't know what we want, but we can know how we don't want to feel, and we can address what they might be feeling that they're, there probably is evidence that they need to be moving towards themselves some more.Christina Deering 32:10  Oh, yeah. So the body is telling the story of the soul. So anytime we get pain, illness, anything that we're experiencing sensations inside of the body. Louise Hay has this incredible book Heal Your Body From A to Z. It's a good jumping off point of kind of connecting to what are the emotional reasons for the physical ailments that I'm experiencing. So, like, if you have an upper respiratory infection, you take the book, you open it, you see, like, oh, where am I not speaking my truth? Sore throat, where am I not speaking my truth? Interesting. Like, our body is trying to tell us things and the body is a really powerful tool, because it's loud. We listen when we're in pain, we listen when we're experiencing illness, right? It's making us slow down. So we're not doing 900 things a day. We're being called to lay in bed so that we can start to get into deeper alignment. So usually when the body is speaking really loudly, It's just simply telling us there's something that's out of alignment here energetically. So that book is actually a really great jumping off point of just kind of being like, you know, why don't I just see what nosebleeds mean? Or, why don't I just see what a sore ankle means? What does that look like? And does what's listed here resonate with me? If so, where is that from? And where can I start to shift that? Right? It's very interesting when she talks about that. So that, I think, is a great jumping off point of starting to tune in and say, like, okay, body, what are you trying to tell me? And sometimes, if it's not in the book, I'll just place my hands over the area of the body and just be like, okay, chest, what message do you have for me? And I just kind of tune in and just see if, like, an image pops up, like dad, or the argument I had with like spouse or and then I'm like, oh, it must be related. Let me start to forgive myself for tha, or forgive him for that. And then you'll start to notice physical sensations will actually begin to move the second we recognize that it's just wisdom, but we have to move the energy that's trying to get our attention that's in the way, there's always wisdom underneath the physical ailment, and all we have to do is move that energy through healing or just recognition or awareness, and then the wisdom comes to the surface, and then it can dissipate. Does that make sense?Lesley Logan 34:14  It does. It really does. I love both of those options. Thank you. Very helpful. Very, very helpful. Lesley Logan 34:21  All right, we're gonna take a brief break and then find out how people can find you, follow you, work with you. Lesley Logan 34:27  All right. Christina, tell us where you like to hang out. Where can they stalk you in the best way? Where can they, if they're like, hold on, this woman spoke to me so much. I feel her in my, well, how can they work with you?Christina Deering 34:38  I love it. Amazing. So you can find me on Instagram. My handle is I am Christina Deering, so it's C-H for the Christina, and then Deering is D-E-E-R-I-N-G. You can find me there. You can also find me on the You Unlimited podcast where we had Lesley on just recently. I mean, people absolutely loved that episode. The feedback I got from it was just like so many DMS from all the magic and wisdom that you brought into that space. So, You Unlimited, it's one of my favorite places to play, because incredible people are magnetized into that space, and my intention for it is that you receive the exact medicine your soul is desiring. So when you tune into it, just let your intuition guide you. Which one feels most exciting or juicy to listen to? There's medicine in there for you. Click that one. Listen to that one. Lesley Logan 34:38  Oh, I love that. I love that. It's so brilliant. And what a great way to practice listening to what feels good, what you're drawing to. Yeah, you've given us so much already, actually, but we can't let you get away without the bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted steps people can take to be it till they see it. What do you have for us? Christina Deering 35:40  Hmm, you know, I covered a little bit of that today. Again, our daydreams are just us looking into our future timelines. So let yourself daydream. Let yourself visualize. Give yourself the spaciousness to connect to the thing that feels exciting, and start thinking about it like it's a future timeline, instead of thinking, oh, it's just a dream, there's no way, or who am I to. Let yourself dream for a little bit, because it's going to start to get you into a higher vibrational state as you move towards it. The other thing that's really tactical that I love to do, that always really supports me when I'm going after what I want, is David R. Hawkins has this Map of Consciousness. So you could literally Google David R. Hawkins, Map of Consciousness. And what it does is it basically says, what is the vibrational level of emotions? So like, when I'm in a state of like, when you think about what you're manifesting, what would you feel when you're manifesting that thing? You probably feel love. You'd feel peace. If you want to manifest in a six-figure business, you're going to feel peace. You're going to feel love. So when you look at that chart, it actually is operating at a 600 on a vibrational frequency scale, right? So that's where I get to be more often, so that I'm in energetic alignment to the thing I'm calling in. So it kind of gives you, like an actual mental picture or an idea of what that means to be a vibrational match for something. Because when people would be like, be a vibrational match, I'm like, that is so conceptual. What does that even mean? That's subjective. I don't know what to do with that, but the second I stumbled upon David R. Hawkins' Map of Consciousness, I realized, okay, if peace and love is operating at a 600 and that's what my manifestation is operating at, then now I'm feeling shame for the thing that I just did, or guilt for the thing that I just did. What's the vibrational frequency of that? Thirty. Okay what this map is literally telling me is I'm out of alignment with the thing that I want. So what I always ask myself is, is my need to be right about this thing more important than what I'm manifesting, and if it's not change the energy in it, because so often we're like, I'm right, my husband's wrong, or my kid is wrong, or, you know, we just want to hold we want to be right so badly. But what we're not recognizing is it's keeping our frequency low, so it's blocking our manifestations. So the second we can start to actually see that on a scale and say, like, wow, I am in a lower vibrational state, so I am blocking my manifestations is my need to be right more important than what I'm manifesting, which is a six-figure business where I feel peace and joy? No, my need to be right is not more important than that, because this is going to deeply impact the planet, and I can give my husband a break and myself a break. So that's a very tangible and tactical way to start to think about vibration, to start to be t, till you can actually become it. You know what I mean? So this idea of like, your frequency matters, the energy that we're in matters, our emotions matter. So acknowledge them, let them be okay, but also choose to shift them into a higher frequency emotion. Does that make sense? Lesley Logan 38:36  It makes so much sense. And I think what a great way to take a pause and get realigned. Go, oh, I'm so focused on this over here. I'm not. I'm way away from what I want to be on. Like, I think that's really excellent, excellent advice. Christina, you're so fun, and you guys do have to go listen to the You Unlimited podcast. It's so freaking great. It's so wonderful. You have such amazing guests and I love all the things you gave us today. I feel like I could take a workshop on each one of these individually. And yeah, you gave me some new readings. I'm so great. So thank you so much for being here. Lesley Logan 39:10  Be It babe, thank you for listening. Please share this with a friend who needs to hear it. Maybe you need to have a few of your friends you can hold yourselves accountable on, you know, buying yourself time for your future self to decide what it wants to do, or figuring out what you're gonna get rid of or delegate or change your energy around. And please let Christina know. Tag her. Tag the Be It Ppod with your takeaways and until next time, Be It Till You See It. Lesley Logan 39:32  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.Brad Crowell 40:14  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 40:19  It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.Brad Crowell 40:24  Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 40:31  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.Brad Crowell 40:34  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

UnitedHealth (UNH) is back in the headlines after the Department of Justice launched a civil fraud investigation into the company. The DOJ cites questionable billing practices through diagnoses that trigger extra expenses. As Jenny Horne points out, other stocks in the sector like CVS Health (CVS) fell alongside UNH. She later turns to Block Inc. (XYZ) and its sell-off following its earnings miss and weaker-than-expected guidance.======== Schwab Network ========Empowering every investor and trader, every market day.Subscribe to the Market Minute newsletter - https://schwabnetwork.com/subscribeDownload the iOS app - https://apps.apple.com/us/app/schwab-network/id1460719185Download the Amazon Fire Tv App - https://www.amazon.com/TD-Ameritrade-Network/dp/B07KRD76C7Watch on Sling - https://watch.sling.com/1/asset/191928615bd8d47686f94682aefaa007/watchWatch on Vizio - https://www.vizio.com/en/watchfreeplus-exploreWatch on DistroTV - https://www.distro.tv/live/schwab-network/Follow us on X – https://twitter.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/schwab-network/About Schwab Network - https://schwabnetwork.com/about

Kiera and Britt have a deep discussion on the ins and outs of hygiene right now, including what's on hygiene grads' minds, the right ranges for skill sets, how different practices are staying scrappy amid the dearth of hygienists, and more. Episode resources: Sign up for Dental A-Team's Virtual Summit 2025! Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript Kiera Dent (00:00.822) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera. And today I have Brittany Stone, the one and only No BS Britt. And today I'm asking her to play Hygiene Britt. If you didn't know, it's actually fun. It is. And it was funny because yesterday, Britt and I actually like had, we were heavy in Dental A Team mode. And then I called Britt back probably like a minute later and I said, Hey Britt, can you be Hygiene Britt for me? Cause I have a hygiene question.   Britt (00:26.988) you   Kiera Dent (00:29.102) So Britt, welcome to the show today. How are you?   Britt (00:32.308) I'm good, how are you doing?   Kiera Dent (00:34.23) I'm great. How does it feel to be hygiene Britt? Like go from, mean, you're Dental A Team's operations manager, you're also consultant, like all the things. How does it feel like go back into that clinical space sometimes?   Britt (00:45.678) I mean, hygiene are roots, man. Like that's the beginning. So it feels to me, I know you guys haven't known me as like hygienist. Like, yes, I know hygiene stuff, but you never worked with me clinically as a hygienist. But to me, I'm like, yeah, that's me.   Kiera Dent (00:54.872) true.   Kiera Dent (01:00.91) I'm glad because it is fun. I actually was talking to Jason last night after you and I had chatted and I said, Jay, it was actually really fun to talk to Britt about like where we started. I mean, I'm dental assistant, Kiera, office manager, Kiera, treatment coordinator, Kiera. No one's known me as that in Dental A Team. And so I'm just going to throw it out there because you never know who's listening to the podcast and who would ever like take me up on this idea. But if there's someone out there,   that would love to allow Dental A Team to come in for one day and go back to our roots. So Britt, we probably have to do this in Arizona, because I think you're only licensed in certain states, right? Okay, so Arizona offices, if you know someone in Arizona, all of our crew will be there in March and there might be a few other times, but I think it'd be funny to see a Dental A Team take over. Like how would it be for Tip to be an assistant?   Britt (01:35.318) Yeah, currently still just Arizona. My OG state over here.   Kiera Dent (01:52.462) me to either be an assistant or a treatment coordinator, and Dana to go back into hygiene and just see like how it would run. if anybody's open to letting us come back into our, like put the scrubs on and just see like, shoot, we'll cover for a day for you guys.   Britt (02:01.198) .   Britt (02:06.358) It would be like a good and wild time all at the same time because I think we're all a little bit more maybe assertive than we might have been in some of our olden days in those positions.   Kiera Dent (02:14.038) Hahaha   Kiera Dent (02:18.316) I agree. And this is why I want to see like what would Dental A Team do if we were all put into one office at one time. So anyway, if you're interested, email me Hello@TheDentalATeam.com This isn't a passive ask. This is like, I really think it'd be so fun. We've talked about it so many times, like what would it be like? So, Hey, if you're ever interested in Dental A Team.   Britt (02:23.046) Yeah.   Britt (02:35.982) Usually what we do is we say if we could all only be one role, so no doubling up on roles, this is the game Kiera likes to play, who would be which role within the office is usually how this goes. yeah, not to say we don't get along, we would have a fantastic time, but you'd get a lot of ideas that they would run quick, I'll tell you that.   Kiera Dent (02:45.118) I do.   Kiera Dent (02:49.762) and   Kiera Dent (02:55.608) Thank   Kiera Dent (02:58.99) Well, and I'm like, believe it or not, I would actually not go for office manager. So I'm out on that. Shelby will probably take on office manager role, even though she's never done it, she'll do great. But it is kind of funny, Tiffany, we were talking the other day and I said, Tiff, I remember being a dental assistant and I had hours of time sitting there like root canals, crown preps, where I just thought of all these ideas and Tiff's like, I would like, I literally would hate if you actually went back to that and had that much time to think of ideas.   Britt (03:08.014) Thank you.   Kiera Dent (03:26.904) Fair enough. anyway, throwing it out there, Britt and I have a good time, but truly I do think it'd be fun if an office allowed us to come and just like see what would happen if all of us went back into it. You might hate it. Don't worry, doctors. You can still keep like one or two main assistants. Like we won't fully do it, but like we're, we think we'd be the A team. I'm just curious if we'd actually be rated A, B, C or D going back in as a whole team. Exactly. But on that note, pivoting into what we want to chat about.   Britt (03:47.327) Put our money where our mouth is. Is that what you're saying?   Kiera Dent (03:55.96) Britt and I wanted to get on the podcast and I really wanted Britt to be on this podcast with me because Britt is a hygienist and believe it or not, I have had actually some clients ask Britt and Dana like, hey, if you ever want to like leave consulting and come back to hygiene, hey, poo poo on you, that's terrible, don't do that. We don't poach your people, don't poach ours. But it is interesting because I do know that hygiene is a hot topic and so I thought Britt, if we came on the podcast today and we actually chatted about...   Britt (04:08.174) Thank   Britt (04:12.056) you   Kiera Dent (04:22.508) All right, let's talk about hygiene. How do we get hygienists? How can we hire? How can we attract? What are maybe some out of the box thinking today? And also doing on both sides of the coin because I do know we have hygienists that do listen to the podcast as well. So shout out to you listening in and educating yourself and understanding kind of the predicament the doctors are in because it's this constant, like I do feel over the last four years since COVID, the hygiene pay range has like just like escalated up this ladder, which is making it hard for practices to stay profitable, which then leads to if   The practices can't maintain profitability. I do actually wonder and this is kind of just my thoughts and I'm sure Britt you've thought of it. Will there come a point where hygienists are actually asking for too much that dentists say it's not worth it for hygienists? I'm just going to hire a dentist. So I'm just like just so we know and I want hygienists. So it's going to be kind of like a really open conversation. My goal today is that none of what we bring ever should be weaponized against people. So there might be some ideas discussed hygienists if we're talking about certain things to me. This is not always on where you can go in.   take this to your doctor and demand certain things and doctors if that happens, like it sounds like that's a great opportunity to coach that hygienist out and bring someone else in and vice versa. Hygienists and doctors, like doctors not weaponizing and saying, hygienists we're so high, I can't afford to do this or things like that. I think really understanding the dynamics of where we're at, I think is gonna be a good conversation. So Britt, you, hi, Janice Britt, welcome to the scene, hello.   Britt (05:45.454) Thank you. I'll put that hat on. And it's all in fairness, right? I think that's what it comes down to in any working relationship. And even when it comes down to talking about things like compensation, like it should be a conversation for both sides, right? And sometimes there's things that can be done. Sometimes there's things that can't be done. And sometimes performance-wise, it doesn't warrant being done. So I think that's just the mindset to go into it with always when it comes to those conversations is it is a conversation. It should be a conversation.   demands back and forth and finding the best fair solution.   Kiera Dent (06:20.502) Yeah, absolutely. And Britt, I'm so glad that you're open to this. And Britt, the reason I love her in operations next to me, like I feel like her and I are really good yin and yang. think Britt and I truly, we have very different personalities. We have very different mindsets. We have very different pieces. And I think when you can bring those two perspectives to the table, I'm very strong entrepreneur. I'm very strong business. very, like Britt will tell you, I come in very strong on those and Britt will come in very strong on team.   Britt (06:32.876) you   Kiera Dent (06:45.282) I think that to have someone like that in your corner to me is invaluable because it allows Britt and I to really, like we say hash, like we really do go back and forth knowing that our ultimate goal is to land on what's fair and best for the business, what's fair and best for the patients, what's fair and best for our team, what's fair and best for every player in the scene and the arena. And I believe when you can have these conversations, you can get there. So Britt, I wanna just kick off.   It's something that's come up and I'm just curious from your perspective as a hygienist, because you are a senior hygienist. You've been in the ranks. You haven't been there as a brand new grad. And there are some hygienists who are feeling like these new grads are coming out asking for quite a lot. I've actually been told that a lot of the hygiene teachers are actually telling them to ask for higher amounts. And I'm really curious, like, do you feel that there should be ranges where if you've been out of school for say zero to five years, it's kind of like this is your range.   if you've been out of school from five to 10 years or 10 years plus, because some of those senior hygienists do feel like, hey, I've been in here, I've been running the ranks. And then I'll give you the flip side that I also think of, but sometimes my senior hygienist might not be as up to date as my brand new grads out of school. So there's this like, there is an experience piece of you've been with the patients longer, but sometimes like, I know certain hygienists don't do as much perio, whereas new grads do more perio sometimes. So.   Again, I'm not here to judge the hygiene world. I'm just curious, Britt, from your perspective, being a hygienist who's been in the realm for a while, what's your take on like, should there be ranges based on experience or is it on performance? Like, what's kind of some metrics that you see that would be beneficial when we're looking at compensation to be fair across the board?   Britt (08:22.414) I mean, you know fairness is a big thing to me, right? So I and this will be a probably to some maybe not the most popular opinion But I do think it's the fairest and I no matter the role right whether it's a hygienist whether it's an assistant whether it's a front desk whether it's an associate coming in I'm big on it comes down to skill set and what are they able to do? Right? What what's their skill set in the position? How are they able to perform? What things can they be?   responsible for and own and make sure that they get done. Now with a new grad, would I probably be a little bit conservative on what they start them out with and say, hey, here's your path forward, right? Once you show me XYZ, you're running on time, you're making sure your diagnostics are quality, all those things, this is your path forward as far as compensation goes. But I do think it should be a skill set based compensation, not just like tenure based compensation. I'm not a big fan of tenure overall, no matter like   Kiera Dent (09:21.517) Mm-hmm.   Britt (09:22.176) like where it is. The thing that I will say along with that though is to make sure that our owners, right, whoever's making those decisions on compensation, that we keep it all fair. So I think sometimes some of those more senior ones, maybe they've stayed at a rate for a really long time and maybe haven't been increased according to inflation or what they're paying other people now. And so like that piece needs to be fair as well. So make sure, I'm a big fan of tears, what's   the skills and make sure that it stays within those tiers. And yeah, if you've been with me for a long time and you've got a full set of skills for hygiene and you do really well, you should be at the top end of that top tier. And if not, then we need to have a conversation and talk about it and see how we can get you there. Because that's ultimately my goal for any of my team members is how do we get you performing to the top of your skill set, your ability or your license. And with that should come like fair compensation that comes along with it.   Kiera Dent (10:22.392) So, okay, I really like that. I've got two follow-ups on that. One is what are like set skillsets that could be ranging someone up? Are we just talking perio? Are we talking laser? Are we talking like, what is it that is specifically for hygiene, the skillset? And I do love, I hope you guys all asked like that, like every person should be performing at the top of their license. So that's follow up question number one. Second is gonna be about a compensation question. So what are those skills that you feel will range them up exponentially?   Britt (10:50.252) Yep, so for me, like basic skills, running on time. If you have an anesthesia license, you're doing your anesthesia, if that's allowed within your state. Chart audits are good. You're getting everything that needs to be done, that your charting is complete. You're getting all your diagnostics done. You're coming prepared to huddle. You're being a team player. All of those things are kind of like my basic level stuff.   Kiera Dent (11:16.846) Should they like interjecting real quick on that? Should they be hitting a certain production amount or is it more just those? It's like, what is the production amount that they should be hitting in like basic skill level before they even move on?   Britt (11:29.038) Yep. I think whatever your basic goal is, I'm usually depending on the area, depending on your PPO fee for service, right? There's going to be a little bit of a difference, but I'm usually like a 12 to 1500 is usually around kind of like my base, depending on if you're PPO or if you're fee for service kind of on that upper range. And then as you as you one, I think get more confident with perio, have those conversations, perio percentage rate, that's case acceptance for peri   percentage rate would be a next level to look at. So not only are you having the conversations, right, you can do it, but how effective are you educating patients in advocating form to get the treatment done that's needed? So this is where a few more specific metrics are gonna come into play. So per year percentage is gonna start to come into play looking at jumping to that next level. I'm also gonna start looking at how well are you setting up doctor and teeing up doctor for treatment.   That's going to be my mid range that they need to be able to have those conversations. TFDoctor, be a partner in that conversation. So that's kind of like my mid range ones and my high range ones I'm going to tie in. Yeah.   what's your case acceptance coming out of your room? How well are you supporting the doctor and advocating for those patients? Having conversations because at some point with hygiene, right, there's clinical skills and with those, right, doctors should be checking, sure, check my perio from time to time on my charting to make sure we're aligned. Yes, if I'm missing stuff that I shouldn't be missing, then like absolutely those should be things that are talked about and would keep me in that like basic pay range if I'm not doing well at my job.   But to get up into that advanced pay range, it comes to a lot of the soft skills. Are you adding in that scan? Are you on board? Are you advocating for the practice and getting things done? Are you talking about treatment? Do you have good case acceptance coming out of your room? It's a lot of those soft skills and showing initiative instead of like, no, that's too much. I'm not going to do that. It's almost like a difference in personality and an initiative once you get to those higher range and you know them, you see those hygienists that are just rock stars and they're like, yep, they will   Britt (13:34.33) help out, they are a team player. Yep, I can get that done. I've got time to do it. They are having the conversations, they're supporting the doctor really well. That's my top tier. That's what I ultimately want everyone to be.   Kiera Dent (13:47.918) And I think that actually really helped in like that 1500 that 1200 range like there has been a model out there of like three times their pay and I'm just curious Britt. Is that even a realistic number from your perspective now of three times a hygienist pay? I do say for fee for service usually at a four or four point five times their pay but with PPO schedules and with the new rate of hygienist coming out, do you still feel like three times their pay is fair?   Britt (14:14.242) I think it is a great starting point, right? There's across the country, and this is where like you can pull the economics of it into it, right? Depending on the area, depending on how many hygienists there are.   Like that's something that we, I think, have seen across the board that impacts higher ranges or lower ranges, right? That's the way a free economy works. Welcome to it. So, right, depending on the area, I would say yes, that is, everyone should be shooting to hit that. And some of our areas where   you know, it's a little bit more competitive or depending on, you know, well, we'll throw it out there. State laws, different things that have to be offered, right? That impacts the price and how expensive it can be to pay a hygienist. And I'll say to my hygienist, you guys are worth it, right? Especially you're that top tier hygienist. Like you guys are worth it. But from a business standpoint, there's like we got to we got to stay profitable at the end of the day. And so I do think that three times fee for service   us up to like four times pay is a great place to start. And if we are not there, then we need to start looking at other factors. Is it reasonable? Most of time, yes, 100 % it is. Some cases, depending on the area where there's like those shortage, those higher ranges, like it's a little bit more of a struggle. And that's where it comes to the conversation of, all right.   hygiene or associate. And we've definitely had those practices where it's like, for what I'm paying this hygienist, I can have an associate who can not only do hygiene, but can also do treatment. Which direction should I go?   Kiera Dent (15:38.862) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (15:48.96) I agree. I think, I think the hygiene world, like making sure that it's cognitive of that too, because I think it could be a dangerous zone where without trying hygienists actually like work themselves out of the marketplace. I agree. think hygienists is such a valuable player on the team. And so just making sure that like we're cognitive of that. And I love that, Britt, you bring that from a hygiene perspective. I will also say though, I don't just think it's fully on the hygienist. And Britt, I know you agree with this completely that   Britt (16:15.555) Mm-hmm.   Kiera Dent (16:16.334) looking for that three times and instead of saying like we can't get there, let's look to see how could we get there. So it has the office actually looked at their fees and are we making sure that our fees are competitive, that we're negotiating with the insurances. This doesn't mean you have to drop in and drop your insurance plans, but it does mean we need to be very effective with it. Looking to see can we add in laser? Can we add in PRP or PRF? Can we add in some of those adjunct services? Are we adding fluoride? Are we getting all of our x-rays on the right series?   Are we billing out the correct comp exams for it? Are we looking for those additional pieces and looking for like, what are all the codes that we can bill out within hygiene? Of course, not over diagnosing things out or billing things out. But I think like, let's also look at medicine. They bill for the gauze, they bill for the cotton, they bill for all these things. And I'm not here to say like nickel and dime your patients, but I am here to say.   I think they're starting to become a world where we've got to start being more proactive on what we do, bill out to insurances to hit the rates that the hygienists need to be producing as opposed to just doing what we've always done. So I think like as an office collectively working in conjunction with a hygienist, let's not just throw our hands in the air and say like, they're too expensive. There's no way they'll hit it. No, that's not true. There's actually a lot of hygienists who are being paid those higher ranges and they are producing three, four times their pay. I have hygienists in...   less affluent areas able to hit that. And so it's kind of like the four minute mile. People thought it couldn't happen, couldn't happen, couldn't happen. Well, I think sometimes it's telling us it can't be done. We actually find ways to make that true rather than saying, hey, other offices are doing that. Let's get creative and let's let's let's work together and figure out what we can do. So I want to maybe have some commentary. Please do.   Britt (17:51.118) Yeah, I want to make a quick plug on this because I know I threw out there like there does come a point where like sometimes we sit there and we contemplate of like associate or not the hygienist and me do I want doctors doing hygiene? No, I don't. don't. No. Do doctors want to be doing hygiene? No.   Kiera Dent (18:04.27) No, I don't either and I'm not even a hygienist.   Now.   Britt (18:11.072) No, they don't want to, right? So like it's not an ideal solution, but when it comes to a business being able to survive and stay profitable and keep running to take care of patients and provide livelihoods for everybody, like some that's the that's the business side of my brain that it's like sometimes those are things that we have to contemplate and see what's the best decision moving forward.   Kiera Dent (18:30.296) for sure. And I'm glad you put that because the ultimate goal is to not replace hygienists. The ultimate goal is no. But I think it's like, look at other businesses. Do you think other businesses wanted to convert to AI? The answer is probably not. But due to necessity of profitability, like to me, that becomes a survival skill. Like is this business going to live or die? They're going to find ways to live. That's a natural human tendency. And so I think it's like, let's partner together. Let's find the solutions. I even have some practices who have elected to go   Britt (18:35.598) I don't want that.   Kiera Dent (18:59.064) hygiene, like no hygiene in their practices. so knowing that, like, but again, this is just getting scrappy. This is doctors just like, we have to find a way to survive. think it's   Britt (19:01.71) Mm-hmm.   Britt (19:08.14) And out of necessity, if they can't find one, right? Like sometimes that's kind of been the state that some of them have been in, so.   Kiera Dent (19:15.342) for sure. So Britt on that we did talk about like baseline pay and we talked about longevity of it. What happens when you have a seasoned team that has been there? And we've got hygienists, they love the practice, they love the things they're doing. recruiters are pretty impressive these days. Like I do feel everybody's being bombarded with other offers constantly. And it's like you might be very happy. But hey, like sometimes dollars do count. What do you do for a practice?   when like these new grads are coming out and let's say they're asking because like right now I have a practice and the new grads like literally looking on indeed all practices hiring right now are like $5 an hour more than what they're currently paying like their highest hygienist. Like what do you do in that realm because like if you've got three or four hygienists now I've got to increase everybody $5 an hour just to be able to bring one new hygienist in. I think this is where it's like this wave of constantly like chasing a number but it's not just one person I'm chasing it's multiples.   what do you recommend for businesses and new grads? Because I'm like, if I tell this new grad, like, well, this is where we'll start to, I've got seven other offices willing to offer this hygienist that they only need one hygienist. They can do it because the finances make sense for them. What do we do in those scenarios to help these practices out?   Britt (20:27.724) Yeah, I think having a community near you to know kind of what people are really getting paid, right? There will always be, especially in your more like city, right, areas, there's always going to be someone out there who can pay more.   There's gonna be an offer on the table somewhere. I always say question that. Know what you're getting into on those ones that are like real high from everybody else. But I think it's a real question of what are you ultimately looking for? One, with that higher rate you better believe you're still, you're gonna have to make your way, right? To make it worth paying you that amount. So that's gonna be there.   Also, you know, what do you value in the people you work with and the type of things that are being done and the care that's being provided in practice not taking a hit at anybody but I'm like that's an overall it's not just a dollar like sure you can go out and you just want to pick a job based on dollar Go for it. If you want it's risky in my opinion Look at the whole picture and see kind of what you're gonna be living because we spend a lot of time at work, right? It's a it's a big part of our life and we spend a lot of time and I don't know I take a lot of pride in where I work. So I care about when   the people and what we do. And I hope that's the same for our providers out there, for our hygienists out there. But I think take a look overall.   And then I think when it comes to those rates, so have a community know what like the actual rates are not just the jobs that are out there and what people are getting paid. Make sure you're competitive like 100 % the rates need to be competitive and if you fall in behind some unlike yeah we might need to see what we can do and see if we can start to get back within the range of the market to stay competitive. And then   Britt (22:16.45) that also I think brings confidence in knowing you're offering something fair, right? So if I'm like, if I know, hey, it's competitive, it's fair.   We're a great place to work. I always want to get people in to come meet us, experience us, because again, it's more than just a dollar. If they're making a decision just off of a dollar, they're probably not the right person for me anyways. So I want to get them in, let them see the whole picture. And then, you know, when it comes down to it, at the end of the day, I can offer what I can offer and offer a path of like, hey, this is where it starts. And here's what you can do moving forward in the potential. But we're getting to know each other. And   I'll say this recently, especially for assistants as well, because I think it's the same, similar scenario in assistant world, is some of the doctors that know their affair, they come in, they're confident.   have people who like them and they're like, okay, you know, not to say it always happens, right? It won't always, but it's more likely to happen instead of just chasing a dollar amount and trying to like outbid someone. So I think still be confident in your moves. Don't jump too fast. Make sure you're competitive. Make sure you're allowing people to see the whole picture of you. I'll add to that. Make sure you're actually a good place to work along with that so that you attract people.   Kiera Dent (23:12.878) Right.   Kiera Dent (23:32.398) Agreed.   Britt (23:34.382) because I think trends and you'll see articles and research out there, money matters and there's always going to be those people where money is their top priority, but life I think these days matters to people a little bit more.   Kiera Dent (23:46.22) I would agree. think that that's something that the shift of the, think money used to be the currency that people were going after. And I think now it's time and lifestyle that is the new currency. so realizing that and recognizing that, Britt, let's say an office, the going rate is higher than what you are really like able to afford in your practice. What's your take on offering like a lower base, but commission from a hygienist? Like does this, I don't know how it lands for hygienist. Is it like, well, I want the guarantee of like knowing that I can   let's say it's $5 different between offices, but this office is really struggling, but they can offer you the commission base. How attractive is that to a hygienist? I have my opinions, but I'm not a hygienist. So I'm just curious from your state, what you hear from colleagues in the industry. Cause I know you see very connected to the hygiene world. What are you kind of hearing around?   Britt (24:33.42) Yeah, I think it's a super fair model. I know when I was managing, that's the model we were off. I want you to know that you can count on something that's reliable, right? So that's where I do like having a base that's very reasonable, that's very fair, that is an amount that easily hygienists should be able to produce and make that and cover themselves.   But for those who do like hustle, right? They're not gonna be like, well, I've got an opening, I'll just go home. Or like, I'll just like chill. Like they want to work. They wanna keep people on their schedule. They want to be supportive of the team. They should make more. And so it's even just a fair from a multiple hygienist in an office. I'm like, yeah, yeah.   working hard I should make a little bit more than the person that's kind of slacking off a little bit. And so I like that model to where one you know what you can count on because there's that base there. And then yeah commission is going to be ultimately whatever you want it to be right? Like that's where you've got some control and if it's a commission based on production or adjusted production or collections whatever route the doctor ends up going   fees rise in the practice, right? That's you naturally kind of build in that increase over the years as office fees change.   Kiera Dent (25:56.782) Fair, that's a good point. And Britt, I have so many more questions I wanna ask. I think for today, keeping it here, I really also think one thing to plug on the commission that I think Britt, you and I have done a really good job. Like, mad kudos to you within our company, because we do offer our consultants based in commission. So I think like we can actually speak to this model pretty well. But something I really pride ourselves on is we actually go and look at real numbers. I don't want to be going for my best hygienist and offering off of my best hygienist.   We want to find an average between like our lowest producing hygienist and our highest producing because I would rather set a clear expectation with that hygienist coming in of like, if you do basically like bare minimum, this is what you'll be making. And then if you choose to like go more, which there are opportunities, this is the range you could do. And literally when we do offers, we literally show a hygienist or like in our instance, it's a consultant. Here's what it is. Here's what the averages are.   And for me, I think that actually makes me way more confident going in because I'm not offering the highest end. We have we have consultants that produce a lot more than other consultants. But I don't want because that just sets an expectation for that hygienist coming in. This is what I think I'm going to be paid. And then when I'm not, they get angry with you versus it being like, this is where I think it's very fair. This is very realistic. This is the time frame. Realistically, I think you can hit it. This is an average day. Here's our actual numbers. This is an actual hygiene schedule.   So that way I really do think that that will make you more confident when offering. If you can't offer say that $5 more or you want to bring people in and maybe you're a little bit less than that. You don't want to raise your entire hygiene team. And again, hygienist, it's not because I don't want to raise you. Like I just want to make that super clear as a business owner. I want to pay my entire team exponentially well. Like truly this is like my heart of hearts. Like Britt knows this. I'm constantly looking like how can we raise people? How can we do it?   Britt (27:38.413) Thank   Kiera Dent (27:40.918) I also know as a business owner, my job is to make sure I keep the business profitable because if I don't, I've actually heard every person that we serve in the community of patients. I've heard our entire team of being able to afford it. And also I don't want to be stressed as a business owner, like fully. would, I like, I love you and I want to pay you. I also want to be able to sleep at night and not constantly stressing of do I need to take a second mortgage out on my home? So like just understanding it's, it's a business, it's a person, it's a human, but I think be fair with your numbers that you offer.   And Britt, I do want to do another episode. I'll just tee it up of what do hygienists feel about assisted hygiene? Cause it is a model that's starting to come as popularity of not being able to find hygienists. Is it something of we like it, we don't. Also, I know there's conversations around, we shorten hygiene appointments to be able to see more patients as insurances aren't reimbursing as much. So I definitely want to like tee it up of having a few more hygiene conversations. But Britt on this, thank you for giving you the perspective of like the ranges of how to pay and what you feel about base plus commission.   Britt (28:13.528) Thank   Kiera Dent (28:38.874) Hopefully we were able to give you guys some tips on how can we attract these people. think like you said, Britt, having a great place and a great reputation within the community, having longevity of team members, it's been shocking. Britt and I have been doing interviews and I don't know if you picked up on it, Britt, but the last, I think two or three interviews we've done, one of the questions they've asked is how long is your longest team member and can we ask why they've stayed? It's been shocking to me that that's a question that has come through. It's been consistent.   Britt (29:02.156) Consistent. 100%.   Kiera Dent (29:05.132) And I'm thinking it's because people really want to work in places long-term and there's so much jostling that I think they're also wondering, are employers keeping team members too? So just note, that's been a very random comment that's come through on our last very, and we're talking like yesterday. We just had an interview yesterday, that question was asked, so it's very real. But Brittany, any last thoughts you've got you want to wrap up today? I appreciate your Brittany hygiene today, coming to the table for the perspectives.   Britt (29:29.102) No, I just, I think it's a good conversation and agreed on running numbers and especially if you're wanting to maybe like transition within your practice, right? Hygiene wanting to propose it or doctors wanting to like switch over so that it's a much more sustainable model for you. Run the numbers and see what it looks like, right? That's reality and I'm with you on like low and high end when it comes to hiring. Worst thing you can do is set expectations you're not gonna meet.   Kiera Dent (29:54.094) Agreed Well, Britt, thanks for being on the pod. You guys, appreciate you. We will definitely come back. I know there's lots of questions. I know this is hot right now. So, Britt and will definitely podcast again about assisted hygiene, what we do for shrinking hours. Is that even doable from a hygienist perspective? Or is that like, no, there's other solutions because I know everybody right now is just trying to find solutions for the pickle that we're in wanting to maintain and...   really pay these hygienists what we believe that they deserve. So Britt, thanks for being on it. And for all of you, if we can help you and your hygiene team, if these are issues you're struggling with, if you're like, am just like hitting my head against a wall. I don't really know what to do. Reach out. That's what we do. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com And as always, thanks for listening and we'll catch you next time on The Dental A Team Podcast.  

In a world where your potential clients are constantly inundated with marketing content, how do you create trust and ensure your property management business sticks out? In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management expert Jason Hull sits down with Dan Lievens, Founder of Share One, to talk about the benefits of collecting and utilizing client testimonial videos. You'll Learn [01:56] Getting Started as an Entrepreneur [08:41] The Impact of Social Poof and Positive Reviews [15:39] How to Ask Your Clients for Video Testimonials [24:53] Handling Objections and Retaining Clients Tweetables “Marketing is always evolving as well. Like it's not like you learn to do it once and then you're done forever.” “If I say it, no one believes it because it's my business, but if my clients say it, that's the ultimate social proof.” “The ability to be able to create human connection in any marketing or any business, I think is absolutely critical today.” “A lot of people think, "Well I have a skill in doing something. Maybe I could start a business doing that thing," but the skill is the technician-level work.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Dan: Even if you have a solid business model, like property management, for example, which is obviously needed you know, how do you communicate that? [00:00:06] Dan: How do you attract the right people? And so it's a constant exercise of being able to put yourself in a position of your customers.  [00:00:15] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the #DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management, growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show. All right. My guest today is Dan Lievens. Dan, welcome to the show.  [00:01:23] Dan: So glad to be here and looking forward to meeting your amazing community here. Thank you.  [00:01:29] Jason: Awesome. So Dan and I, we met at a local mastermind in the Austin area, which is really cool because I need more friends and I was like, how can I meet some? I'm in all these different masterminds, but I'm like you're traveling all over the US I'm like, I don't get to hang out with any of these people that often. So yeah, so I joined a local one and there's some really cool people in that group, which is really awesome. [00:01:53] Jason: So Dan's one of them and Dan, why don't you give us a little bit of background on yourself as an entrepreneur and then we'll get into what you do.  [00:02:02] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. So, this is actually my 12th business and in a variety of different industries from technology to health and wellness. [00:02:12] Dan: And my last big venture was opening up coworking facilities in the Philadelphia area. So I was one of the first people to open coworking facilities there and basically catering to startups and small businesses. And we very quickly became a business incubator and a business accelerator and supporting, you know, small startups and getting going right? [00:02:35] Dan: And what I noticed pretty quickly was there is a pretty high rate of failure, and the rate of failure was primarily due to not necessarily the idea of being bad but more the lack of the ability to communicate the value proposition. So that's when I kind of pivoted and said, "Hey, how can I continue growing my impact and helping these folks?" [00:02:56] Dan: That's when I started getting into marketing, really helping them be able to communicate a little bit better in terms of why they do what they do and really meeting the clients where they're at. And so we started getting into video production and pre pandemic, we had a huge video studio with audience, live audiences and all sorts of recording stuff. [00:03:18] Dan: And then the pandemic hit and that's when we kind of realized that, "Hey, at the end of the day, yes, fancy videos are good to have, but what's really going to help people move the needle is social proof. So how can we create a service for businesses to be able to leverage social proof, in other words, video or testimonials basically, to give consumers exactly what they're looking for?" [00:03:42] Dan: So if you're in a market to, you know, rent an apartment or to buy something somewhere, the first thing you do is you look at reviews and So that's how Share One began is really being able to help businesses capture legitimate social proof to grow their businesses.  [00:04:00] Jason: Yeah, awesome. Business can be tough. And like you're saying, there's a lot of good ideas out there, or there's a lot of people that think they have good ideas and you know, I've noticed not everybody tests those ideas. They just, they think the idea is so good, they're like, "everybody else has to love it." And they're surprised when nobody else has the same taste as them. You know? Other people don't love it. Or there's so many pieces that go into it kind of like the book The E Myth Revisited, a lot of people think, "Well I have a skill in doing something. Maybe I could start a business doing that thing," but the skill is the technician level work. Usually like "I can bake a cake, so maybe I should start a bakery business," you know? And then they're like, "Oh, accounting, marketing, sales, prospecting, like all the details, inventory, all the stuff besides baking a cake is where they get hung up on and they get frustrated. [00:04:59] Jason: And then there's just people that are just really bad marketers. They just don't know how to get the message across. Sometimes you run into the opposite problem though, right? Like I've had coaches and people I've worked with that were really great marketers, but their stuff wasn't super great. [00:05:14] Jason: I've had that situation happen as well. But even if they were great marketers and their stuff wasn't great, they still were making money... unfortunately. [00:05:25] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. You know, most entrepreneurs, you know, me included, we find a passion, we find a purpose and we come up with some kind of a amazing technology or whatever that may be. [00:05:35] Dan: And then, you know, our personality is just jump in and do it, you know. And it's so valuable now to really kind of take a step back and understand, you know, what the consumer wants and it goes beyond that. I think it really goes into, you know, even if you have a solid business model, like property management, for example, which is obviously needed you know, how do you communicate that? [00:05:58] Dan: How do you attract the right people? And so it's a constant exercise of being able to put yourself in a position of your customers. Right. And then even as time changes as AI comes in, which hopefully we can talk about a little bit today the landscape changes and consumer behavior patterns changes and what people are looking for changes as well. [00:06:18] Dan: So to, to have that finger on the pulse of, "Hey, what are my prospects actually thinking? What's going through their head?" Is a constant exercise that I think every single entrepreneur needs to do. And then from that perspective, it's like, okay, how do I reverse engineer what's in their mind? [00:06:34] Dan: How do I meet them where they are? Create the language and then slowly kind of invite them into the product and service that you're offering.  [00:06:41] Jason: Yeah. Marketing is always evolving as well. Like it's not like you learn to do it once and then you're done forever. Right? Like what I did to grow DoorGrow in the beginning doesn't work anymore. [00:06:53] Jason: Right? Some of the things that we were doing, like I had LinkedIn automation that was able to generate profile views. And then people would look at the profile view and go, "Oh!" And it's like "somebody viewed your profile." So they go look at mine, which I had set up like a sales page and then I was getting messages and then I would message them, "Hey..." I was getting friend requests or whatever you call it, connections on LinkedIn. [00:07:16] Jason: And then I would send them a message. "What prompted you to reach out?" And then they started clamping down on how many views you could generate a day. And like, then the automation, like, and eventually that whole mechanism pretty much died, you know, and then it was Facebook groups for a while. For a while, the Facebook algorithm was heavily aligned towards Facebook groups. [00:07:34] Jason: So that went crazy for us there was a time where it was like, you know It was just, you know, organic Google was doing its thing. We still get business through that, but you know, it's always evolving as well, which is a challenge. Now, one thing that has always worked well, always, is testimonials that has always worked well for us. [00:07:56] Jason: And so we have more testimonials. I realized this early on. If I say it, no one believes it because it's my business, but if my clients say it, that's the ultimate social proof. That's the ultimate evidence. And so gathering testimonials has always been a like a focus of us at DoorGrow and we have more video testimonials than any other coach or consultant in the property management space. [00:08:24] Jason: I mean, we've been doing this a long time, but we're also really good. But the challenge is how do you show that you're really good in a way that people believe it? Well, I just capture other people's results. So we're always having clients share their wins on our calls and then we're recording it and stuff like that. [00:08:41] Jason: So what, what prompted you to start to focus on testimonials as a business idea?  [00:08:48] Dan: So I do have, you know, pretty strong tech background. So being able to leverage the technology and human resources to be able to give businesses truly what they need. Just as an example we'll take care of the entire invitation interview process with the real producer and edit everything down for less than 200 a piece, right? [00:09:09] Dan: So our next competitors to do the same thing. are $3,000 to $5,000. So we've really, you know, grown this entire business to be able to scale and give businesses exactly what it is that they need. And as I mentioned before, over the years, it's like, yes, you can get super fancy with different things. But video testimonials today by far are the strongest piece of marketing content that you can use as you just mentioned. There's research that says there's an up to 62 percent increase in conversions. So the conversion could be a schedule, a call or schedule, a visit, or, you know, fill in the form. An increase of 62 percent if you start showing video testimonials on pages. [00:09:51] Dan: And today, recent research also shows that 82 percent of consumers have some level of suspicion towards written reviews. That includes Google, Yelp. Amazon today employs 12,000 full time employees just to track down fake reviews. So, you know, talking about market change, right? So that is definitely something that's changing. [00:10:10] Dan: And so being able to capture somebody in the comfort of their homes or their offices, truly speaking from their heart and sharing where they were before and how they met you and what your lives look like today and sharing that transformation is, you know, ultimately the most powerful thing you can do because it's believable, right? [00:10:29] Jason: Yeah, it's reality. It's not AI. It's not you know, even text testimonials, like on Amazon, there's lots of fake reviews. Like, you can have fake text. Somebody could type out anything. You got to chat GPT. "Type out a fake review that sounds credible," you know, or something like this. [00:10:46] Jason: Yeah.  [00:10:47] Dan: So be super careful with that. If anybody out there is, you know, starting out and you're looking for some kind of social proof on your website or anything, the FTC had a new bill in October really cracking down on people that are using fake reviews, $27,000 fine, and just some really crazy stuff. [00:11:05] Dan: That's, you know, consumer protection.  [00:11:07] Jason: You have to be able to back it up. So, yeah, you put some text on something with a testimonial, if you have the video original of that, you're good, right? [00:11:15] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, in my company, we take a lot of care in terms of certifying that every single video that we conduct is a true human transformation. [00:11:24] Dan: So it's a critical component, but at the end of the day, it's like, you know, any listeners today. What's the first thing that you do when you go on Amazon? You look at the number of reviews, look at the number of stars. Is that like four? Is it four and a half? Or is it five? Right? [00:11:36] Dan: And then we scroll down and say, does anybody have any videos? And do these things look legitimate? Right? It's, that's the first thing that we, that anybody does when purchasing something new. And that's part of human nature, right? Dr. Robert Cialdini has a really famous bestseller book called Influence. [00:11:52] Dan: I don't know if you've read that. It's all about the psychology of persuasion. And in there, he mentions that, you know, out of 95 percent of all consumers are what they call imitators and only 5 percent are initiator. So what that means is only 5 percent of people will be open and willing to go be that first person to try something, right? [00:12:15] Dan: Yeah. 95 percent of consumers are waiting for some kind of social proof. They're imitating somebody else's results.  [00:12:22] Jason: That's why the bandwagon approach is so effective. Most people on the planet want safety and security. It's more important to them than freedom or fulfillment in life. [00:12:35] Jason: They want safety and security first. Those people are not entrepreneurs They work for entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs are a small percentage of people and they value freedom and fulfillment over safety and security. We want that too, but our priority is in a different order.  [00:12:50] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, even attracting tenants or you know, bigger decisions to there's especially with the age of AI. [00:13:01] Dan: So I personally believe that we're going into next six months to a year. I mean, things are moving so quickly right now is that there is going to be a revolution or direct kind of already is of like humans against bots, right? So the ability to be able to create human connection in any marketing or any business, I think is absolutely critical today. [00:13:22] Jason: And  [00:13:22] Dan: most people aren't doing it. So you can definitely be ahead of your competition if you start leveraging and building that human connection into your marketing. And one of the easiest way of doing that is allowing your happy clients to tell a story.  [00:13:35] Jason: Yeah, I totally believe that. I think, you know, that all the interactions that AI can do are going to put a premium on humanity. Human connection and human conversation and human relationship is going to be a premium luxury product in some way. And so that's one way to set yourself apart always is to go deeper and to show care  [00:14:03] Dan: Yeah. [00:14:04] Jason: Most companies are going to leverage ai and people are going to leverage ai to go wider but it's not going to have the same depth AI doesn't have that soul. Might get there. [00:14:14] Jason: Yeah, I can see that. And that'll be important. The other challenge I've noticed though, with gathering testimonials is that if I do it, It feels a little awkward and it feels a little forced. Hey, what do you think about my business, you know? And so I think there's an advantage in what you're doing. And then like I know what it takes. Like we have somebody on my team that can edit video and can reach out and like do interviews. And like this is a difficult thing for the typical business owner to like go and do. It's like almost a whole nother thing, a whole nother business or something that we've had to incorporate over the years. And our best testimonials are the unprompted things that we randomly captured during our calls, which we do three, one hour calls weekly coaching clients, group calls. And we just. Have the whole thing recorded. So we capture stuff constantly, just unsolicited, unprompted, great things. [00:15:14] Jason: But when I have to go ask the client, "Hey, how did you like this event?" It just gets awkward and it's not as effective and they can't think of what to say. And they're like, oh yeah, it's really good. And I'm like, "no, tell me about all the problems you had and tell me about all the success we've helped you create." [00:15:31] Jason: But in that moment, they're like, "oh my gosh, I'm taking a test right now in front of a camera. I don't know what to say." And then I don't get something good. So.  [00:15:39] Dan: Yeah, there's quite an art to doing that. And the word awkward definitely sticks out like a sore thumb from the invitation, like asking your people, "Hey, would you record a video testimonial?" All the way to interviewing them as well. [00:15:53] Dan: So we take a slightly different approach. And the invitation, we have a 47 percent success rate in getting your clients to show up for an interview. And that's all about the way our white glove invitation process works. [00:16:06] Jason: This is like all of their clients that they give you their information, you reach out and you can get about half to give you a full testimonial. [00:16:16] Dan: Yeah. [00:16:17] Jason: It's an amazing stat that I'm just saying, by the way, everybody, imagine if you got half of all of your clients to give you testimonials, you would look like an amazing business.  [00:16:27] Dan: So whether you're doing it yourself or somebody else, let me just give you a couple of pointers. We never use the words "video testimonial." [00:16:34] Dan: So it's always something along the lines of, "Hey, I realized that, you know, you've been living here for a month and you seem really happy." Or, you know, "you've recently had a transformation...  [00:16:44] Jason: We've managed your property for a while.  [00:16:45] Dan: Yep. So think something along those lines and say, "Hey you know, there are a couple of really cool individuals that we're trying to bring into our community, and they're on the fence about moving here, if they could hear firsthand what it's like living here from somebody like you, I think you'd have, you know, great neighbors, right?" Something along those lines. "Would you be open to meeting with one of our producers just for a quick 15 minute chat over video, just to ask you a few questions about your stay here? And you know, your story can be truly inspiring to others. And maybe you'll meet some new neighbors," something along those lines, right? So really getting creative and the invitation don't ask for video testimonials, really about, hey, how can you as the client contribute to somebody else's wellbeing, right? That's another human nature thing that's important. And then being able to pass it off to say, "Hey, when you meet with my producer," so it becomes less of you know, it's almost like if I said, "Jason, I'm going to send a news crew to your house tomorrow to interview you."" [00:17:41] Dan: You'd be like, "Oh my God, great!" Like you feel honored. Right? So that's the kind of invitation that we're trying to create here too.  [00:17:46] Jason: Yeah.  [00:17:47] Dan: And then honoring their time, honoring their stories and being a super, super easy, you know, real human being kind of conducting the interview and our 15 minute interview, it gets edited down to, you know, sometimes 60 seconds, maybe two minutes tops just for the golden sound bites that you need to help your your free marketing conversions. [00:18:04] Dan: So yeah, don't go out and ask for video testimonials. That's not going to go over very well. Just get creative with the invitation.  [00:18:10] Jason: Yeah. Good tip. So explain how your service works and what it is and what it's called. And like, so that people can understand the advantage that this can give them.  [00:18:21] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. [00:18:22] Dan: So we're a membership model. We are currently $189 per month to be a client of Share One. And we take care, as I mentioned before, the invitation. So we'll invite your clients. We'll remind them, answer any questions, scheduling and all that. And then basically schedule a call with one of our producers. [00:18:39] Dan: All of our producers are going to be highly trained on the specifics of what you're looking for. So your branding you know, what locations you're trying to fill, whatever that may be our producers already know going into the interview, what the soundbites are you looking for? And we'll basically coach them into answering questions. [00:18:55] Dan: So we'll help them with their cameras a little bit, their lighting. And say, Hey, why don't you finish this sentence and, you know, make sure it doesn't ramble on and on. So we're literally producers looking for these soundbites. So we'll coach them into basically saying the things that we need them to say. [00:19:09] Dan: And that 15 minute interview gets edited down. We add captions and then we deliver that back to you. And from inside of our portal, you can easily say, "Hey, this is a cool testimonial. I want to run it as an Instagram Reel or Facebook ad or anything like that. And we'll recut and reedit everything for you. [00:19:27] Dan: So we're basically completely done for you video testimonial service. Yeah, so we're affordable. We're white glove and we're extremely effective at what we do.  [00:19:38] Jason: Yeah, I mean at 189 a month, it's an absolute no brainer. Just the cost of getting people to do this stuff, or trying to go out and get cheap places to do it, like to edit some video that you capture yourself, the quality's just not going to be there. [00:19:53] Jason: I think the magic is probably in the coaching and in the right questions and in the process and then the editing, putting it together is going to make it all work.  [00:20:02] Dan: And then once you have the video testimonial, we have a couple of really cool new piece of technology that we can automatically push testimonials to certain parts of your marketing assets. [00:20:13] Dan: So we have a, like a floating widget that can sit in any corner of your website that says video testimony. As soon as you click on it, it pops up and people can start watching mobile friendly. You know, when consumers are about to take action. So whether it's a book a tour or schedule a call, there's this anxiety inside of them when they click that. So we have this really cool inline widget that can sit underneath the buy button or schedule button that basically it's just a whole bunch of videos that they can watch some quick social proof in terms of that they're making the right decision. [00:20:44] Dan: Send them over the edge. [00:20:45] Dan: Absolutely. So as a member of Share One and we'll push all those videos automatically as we collect them onto the different parts of your marketing assets.  [00:20:54] Jason: Yeah, nice. So this can be it like there's a code snippets that you can embed on your website stuff like that. Very cool Yeah, we found that conversion rates increase... we'll do on our websites that we do for clients, I call it a testimonial sandwich. So basically we have the main call to action form that's lower on the page and we'll put like maybe two testimonials above it could be videos most of the time It's like a face image and text and then below that we'll have testimonies that have been gathered from their review websites, but videos would maximize if you just had two or three videos that somebody watched before signing up with you, there's a scripture in the Bible that says "in the mouth of two or three words shall every word be established." [00:21:41] Jason: There's this thing that happens in people, if they watch two or three videos of testimonies, or even just see that you have two or three, and there's some sort of headline below them that, like, sums up what it's about, they'll just believe it. They think that this is how everything happens at your business. [00:21:56] Jason: And so the power of just having even two or three videos, now if you have a lot, and you're able to continually gather these from clients, and then maybe leverage getting them to give you positive reviews on review sites, as well, then maybe after they leave the video, there's this other thing, I think Cialdini talks about this as well, that once somebody takes a certain action, they're more likely to believe in that like a positive action towards a business are more likely to want to continue to do that. [00:22:27] Dan: Validates their decision, right? [00:22:29] Jason: Right. And so once somebody gives you a positive review like if a tenant gives you a positive review or an owner gives you positive review, what happens is they tend to have a longer lifetime value. They stay longer and then when you have a problem because something inevitably comes up. The tenant gets frustrated, or the owner gets frustrated about something. [00:22:51] Jason: They're more likely to give you the benefit of the doubt, because previously they acknowledged they had a good experience with you, and they're more likely to say, "Oh, they'll figure it out. And so, it just makes business easier. What we coach our clients on is the best time to get a testimonial or a review is at peak happiness. And for most tenants and owners, that's usually around tenant placement. That's once the tenants in place, the tenant's happiest and the owner is now happy. "Hey, I've got a tenant and they're paying rent," and that's when everybody's happiest. And so during their and owner, new client onboarding processes. [00:23:29] Jason: They could build in this connection with you guys to give you their info and you reach out and ask about their experience. And our usual script for clients when we're coaching them to do this directly is that they reach out, point out the good that they've done for them so far, and then ask them the loaded question, like how do you feel we've done so far? [00:23:51] Jason: And then they're like, "Oh, well, you just told me you did all this you took care of that leaky toilet. You did this and property is ready for me And yeah, it's been great." " What's your experience been like with ABC property management so far?" "Oh, yeah It's been great." Because you just pointed out all the good. For the owner, you're like we got a tenant in place. We got the rent collected should be hitting your bank account in the next couple days. Like how do you feel ABC property management's done so far?" [00:24:15] Jason: "Oh, yeah. You guys are great." "Awesome We love hearing that would you be willing to share that feedback with us online? Or would you be willing to share that feedback with somebody else? That would really help us out." "Oh, yeah." So, it's called the Law of Reciprocity. They want to reciprocate, because you pointed out that you did something for them. [00:24:35] Jason: Yeah, there's kind of this debt or this leverage and they're like, "yeah, sure. I'd be happy to. Awesome. I'm going to have our producers-" you say right? "Our producer reach out and they'll do a little interview with you and I think you'll really enjoy it, and we're really good at making you look good." [00:24:51] Dan: Yeah, so great point. [00:24:53] Dan: I mean, testimonials build trust ultimately, right? And trust lasts a very long time. So even being able to send testimonials to existing tenants or existing owners as a reassurance, like, you know, if an owner has been with you for years, it's like, "Hey, If they're ever doubting about leaving us, let's send them like a case study or something, you know, once every six months or so, just to kind of reaffirm that you guys are really good. [00:25:15] Dan: So, so we actually have technology. We actually have technology that can build into the CRM process to know exactly when to reach out. So that can be automated. And we also upon completion of the video testimonial, we automate the whole Google or Yelp or any other types of site reviews. Automatically for the people that we interview and then one more thing I want to touch on Jason is objections, right? [00:25:37] Dan: So video testimonials are super powerful to use to address all objections before they even come up. So if you know right off the bat that nine times out of 10 people are going to say, well, you're, you know, such and such place is cheaper or other property managers or, you know, only charge 8 percent or whatever." [00:25:55] Dan: Then using the video testimonials and you can cue your producers into collecting that as like, "Hey, initially I thought that going with X was going to be a little bit more expensive, but little did I know they took care of X, Y, Z." Right. So being able to have those little seeds or saying, "Hey, you know, yes, this apartment building is probably not the cheapest around, but I'm so glad I chose this because of XYZ. So being able to take those objections and understanding how to reverse engineer these interviews to be able to get those soundbites that are going to help you with your closing.  [00:26:24] Jason: So this is something that your producers are trained on. That is in part of your onboarding process with new clients, then it's probably to identify what actions or challenges do they tend to deal with? [00:26:36] Jason: And then as you're gathering testimonials, it becomes a goal to offset those.  [00:26:41] Dan: Absolutely. So every new client that comes on board, we do a deep dive really understanding. who their audiences are going to be, who they're trying to attract, where these video testimonials are going to be displayed where these people are coming from, essentially trying to understand like what's in that prospect's mind frame, like what are they looking at when they're watching this? So that we can really kind of, you know, hit a home run for them. [00:27:03] Jason: Yeah, I love this. I think good testimonials are more important than most companies' marketing. They're more important than most companies' websites. They're more important than most everything that a company does to try and get new business. They don't understand the impact. And if you have negative reviews, which is like the opposite, it's like a clamp on anything that you could potentially do in your entire sales pipeline, any marketing you do, anything else, if you have negative reviews. People will check you out. People want to know, can they trust you? So they're looking for indicators. Even if they heard about you word of mouth or whatever, they might still go check and they're like, "well, they have a bunch of bad reviews. Maybe we should do some more research and find another company." And so the impact of that, I think is often underestimated. You can have the ugliest website. You can have the worst branding. You can have all the other leaks that exist in businesses, but if you have great testimonials and great reviews online, people will still work with you and those will be warm leads. [00:28:08] Jason: Like they'll trust you. There's stats that suggest that people trust online reviews or testimonials as much as word of mouth from a trusted friend or advisor if the reviews are credible, unlike some on Amazon. And then, so like the conversion rate or the close rate then is really high and you don't have to have as good of a website, you don't have to be as good at sales. You don't have to be as good at marketing. Good testimonials and good feedback really solves a myriad of marketing sins.  [00:28:37] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. And then it's reputation management too. So if you do have some bad reviews on Google, you can easily upload videos onto your Google business profile and you can upload positive video reviews. [00:28:49] Dan: And when somebody reads something that's written that's negative and they go to your website and there's what we call wall of love, which is basically a whole bunch of videos saying how great, you know, you are, that's a game changer.  [00:29:00] Jason: That's an outlier. That negative review is now an outlier. You know, owners know that there's going to be upset and negative tenants. [00:29:06] Jason: And that's a given in property management. But they want to know that you know how to deal with those situations and that you're making changes or improvements or whatever. So having good responses is also can be important on those reviews. So having a whole wall of proof, yeah, that overcomes a lot of challenges. [00:29:24] Jason: So well cool, Dan. I appreciate you coming on the show. I wanted to announce Dan, you're coming to DoorGrow Live. You're going to be talking at our event in May about some of this stuff, but going even deeper into how people can have an impact in a way that I think would help grow and scale their business, which was what we're all about at DoorGrow. [00:29:45] Jason: And so everybody, make sure and go and check out the details at doorgrowlive.Com. And we were bringing in some really cool experts that are going to be talking about a variety of different things. And Dan is going to be one of those. So really excited to have you at that, Dan.  [00:30:02] Jason: Super excited. Can't wait for it.  [00:30:05] Jason: Yeah, that's going to be really cool. And so if you want to take things to the next level and grow your business, this is the place to be. And can you give them a teaser of what you might be sharing at this?  [00:30:15] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. So, being able to present actual case studies in terms of property management and give solid advice and examples on how you can immediately start using video testimonials and leveraging social proof to be able to increase your conversions and also teaching you how to collect them. [00:30:33] Dan: And everything to do with social proof. So I'm super excited about that.  [00:30:37] Jason: This will be really cool. So make sure to get your tickets to DoorGrow Live. Go to doorgrowlive.Com. Dan, I appreciate you coming on the show. How can people learn more about Share One and get connected with what you're doing? [00:30:51] Dan: Absolutely. So our website is www.share.one O N E. And I think, Jason, we might put something nice together for your listeners and we'll add that to the show notes.  [00:31:01] Jason: Awesome. All right, appreciate you coming and hanging out with us here on the DoorGrow show and excited to do more stuff with you in the future. [00:31:08] Jason: All right. So, if you are a property management entrepreneur and you're wanting to grow your business, add doors, reach out to us at DoorGrow. We can help you with that. So until next time, everybody to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone. [00:31:19] Jason: you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:31:46] Jason: At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Block Inc. (XYZ) reports earnings after the closing bell. Caroline Woods notes bullishness on Wall Street, pointing to 77% of analyst buy ratings surrounding the Cash App owner. However, Caroline discusses how PayPal's (PYPL) recent earnings can impact investor views on Block. Joe Tigay later joins and offers a neutral to bearish options trade for Block.======== Schwab Network ========Empowering every investor and trader, every market day.Subscribe to the Market Minute newsletter - https://schwabnetwork.com/subscribeDownload the iOS app - https://apps.apple.com/us/app/schwab-network/id1460719185Download the Amazon Fire Tv App - https://www.amazon.com/TD-Ameritrade-Network/dp/B07KRD76C7Watch on Sling - https://watch.sling.com/1/asset/191928615bd8d47686f94682aefaa007/watchWatch on Vizio - https://www.vizio.com/en/watchfreeplus-exploreWatch on DistroTV - https://www.distro.tv/live/schwab-network/Follow us on X – https://twitter.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/schwab-network/About Schwab Network - https://schwabnetwork.com/about

Wall Street was all red today, with one of the biggest laggards continuing to be Palantir (PLTR). The slide lower followed CEO Alex Karp announcing a plan to sell 10 million company shares. Walmart (WMT) didn't fare much better when investors reacted negatively to its fiscal 2026 outlook. Block Inc. (XYZ) slid lower after hours following its earnings report. Caroline Woods takes investors through the day's biggest stories.======== Schwab Network ========Empowering every investor and trader, every market day.Subscribe to the Market Minute newsletter - https://schwabnetwork.com/subscribeDownload the iOS app - https://apps.apple.com/us/app/schwab-network/id1460719185Download the Amazon Fire Tv App - https://www.amazon.com/TD-Ameritrade-Network/dp/B07KRD76C7Watch on Sling - https://watch.sling.com/1/asset/191928615bd8d47686f94682aefaa007/watchWatch on Vizio - https://www.vizio.com/en/watchfreeplus-exploreWatch on DistroTV - https://www.distro.tv/live/schwab-network/Follow us on X – https://twitter.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/schwab-network/About Schwab Network - https://schwabnetwork.com/about

In today's episode, Tom and I are talking about how we've navigated expectations in ranch life and marriage. We've learned that unspoken expectations are resentments waiting to happen. If you're going to have an expectation about XYZ, you've got to speak it - not everyone is going to have the same expectation or understand where you're coming from! We hope this episode gives you a more REAL insight into how we've navigated expectations in ranch life and marriage. We've both done the inner work on our own (as well as together); it takes time to get there, but it's absolutely worth it.Remember - speaking expectations are so, SO important. People aren't mind readers, and they can't meet expectations they don't know exist! In this episode, we cover:Tom's experience with having high, unspoken expectations of others + how that's changedWhat to consider if your expectations are consistently NOT being metThe correlation between feeling safe & effectively communicating your expectationsMaking sure that YOU'RE in the right place mentally in order to help others Make sure to hit subscribe/follow so you never miss an episode! Find the complete show notes here: https://terryndrieling.com/expectations-in-ranch-life/ Connect with Terryn:Follow on Instagram @terryn.drielingCheck out my websiteSend me an email at terryn@terryndrieling.com Resources & Links:Join the waitlist for the Good Movement CollectiveGood Movement music by: Aaron EspePodcast produced by: Jill Carr PodcastingMentioned in this episode:Learn more and see if 1:1 Good Movement Guidance is right for you.1:1 Good Movement Guidance

In this episode of The Building Texas Business Podcast, I spoke with Brian Freedman, president of the Bay Area Houston Economic Partnership, about the region's economic development. We explored the five major industry clusters shaping the area: maritime logistics, aerospace, tourism, healthcare, and petrochemicals. Brian shared updates on aerospace innovations at Ellington Field, including projects by Intuitive Machines and Axiom, while highlighting new opportunities in defence manufacturing. I learned about Project 11, an initiative to expand the Houston port's capacity for larger vessels. Brian explained how this infrastructure project connects to the broader transportation network, particularly the role of trucking in regional commerce. We discussed how the partnership works with legislators and industry leaders to address challenges like insurance costs and maintain economic momentum. The conversation shifted to leadership approaches and team dynamics in Texas business. Brian described how maintaining diverse projects keeps his team engaged and motivated. We explored how the Houston area supports entrepreneurs through community partnerships and mentorship programs while adapting to technological changes like AI integration. Our discussion wrapped up with a look at workforce development in the region. Brian explained how educational partnerships are building talent pipelines across industries. We covered the importance of aligning training programs with business needs while fostering collaboration between municipalities, educational institutions, and industry partners. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS In this episode, I spoke with Brian Freedman, president of the Bay Area Houston Economic Partnership, about the economic development in the Houston Bay Area, focusing on the recruitment, retention, and expansion of primary employers. We discussed the significant industry clusters in the region, including maritime logistics, aerospace, tourism, healthcare, and petrochemicals, and their impact on the area's economic growth. Brian highlighted developments at Ellington Field, including contributions from companies like Intuitive Machines and Axiom, as well as the emerging opportunities in defense manufacturing and procurement. The episode explored the scale and impact of the Houston port, emphasizing Project 11's role in expanding the port's capacity and the importance of logistics and innovation for regional prosperity. We delved into the leadership style necessary for motivating teams and managing diverse projects, underscoring the Texan entrepreneurial spirit characterized by ambition and a collaborative approach. Brian shared insights on the vibrant business ecosystem in Texas, driven by a skilled workforce, affordability, and a supportive community fostering partnerships and mentorship opportunities. Finally, we addressed challenges like insurance costs and the importance of regional solidarity, as well as efforts to mitigate natural disaster risks and promote responsible development in the area. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About BAHEP GUESTS Brian FreedmanAbout Brian TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet Brian Freedman, president of the Bay Area Houston Economic Partnership. Brian shares how his organization works to recruit, retain and expand primary employers in the greater Houston Bay Area region. Brian, I want to welcome you to Building Texas Business. Thanks for joining us today. Brian: Hey, thank you, Chris. Honored to be here and great to catch up. Chris: Yes, likewise. So let's start with you. You're the president and the organizational name's kind of long it's Bay Area, houston Economic Partnership. Tell the listeners a little bit about what that organization is and what it does, to kind of put the rest of our conversation into context. Brian: Sure, so BayHEP is the short version of it. So we're the Regional Economic Development Group and kind of the, as I like to say, in the Houston-Galveston region. We're three o'clock to six o'clock on the watch, face right. So we kind of go out 225, all the municipalities and cities going out east and then going down south 45. We go a little west of 45, but really that 3 o'clock to 6 o'clock and we're really focused on how do you recruit, retain and expand primary employers in the region with the idea that if you can get great companies located here and have a group of industry clusters that are cranking away every day, that we can have a great place to live. We have great involved residents that are in this area and opportunities for the folks who live here and kind of build what the future will look like for this region. So a lot of good stuff going on and, happy to get into that a little further, we do economic development, recruitment, retention projects. So how do we get companies here? We do some grants and then we're a membership organization is how we're funded. So we have about 300 members, 19 municipal members, Harrison-Galveston County, the port, the airport system. It's really how do you get the leaders of a region to work together to advance what we're doing here. Chris: Wow, I mean that's it sounds like it's easier to say and harder to do coordinating that many organizations and trying to get everybody pulling the same direction. Brian: Yeah, it's a lot of fun and we get to work with a lot of great folks. That's how we met Chris, is that, you know, through some of our mutual connections. But yeah, you know, it's really when you can get generally like-minded folks thinking about what the future of a region will look like and pretty aligned and working towards that effort, it's more of a well, it's just fun and you can create a lot of impact and we're seeing that and I'll be happy to dive into some of the specific projects we're working down here. But I mean, you guys do it too at Boyer Miller. Y'all are working with clients all over the spectrum of types of industry and you have to adapt to what's coming up, what's at you, and be ready for that kind of stuff. Chris: Yeah, no doubt. So yeah let's jump into some stuff. Let's talk first, because when I think of your area, obviously the first thing that comes to mind is NASA and all that's going on around that, and that leads me to technology and innovation. So what are some of the emerging technologies or trends that you're seeing that are kind of helping shape the future of Texas and kind of the business opportunities, at least in your region and for Texas? Brian: Yeah, so I call it kind of the big five on the industry cluster. So everybody thinks about this area for NASA, which we love right, because it really is a crown jewel out here, but I call it the big five right Maritime and all the associated logistics with the port aerospace and aviation, so nasa, but also the great work that the airport system is doing with ellington and hobby, tourism and recreation, health care and all the hospitals that have campuses down here, and then specialty and petrochemical and the energy industry partners and every one of those ecosystem has a ton of stuff going on. So I'm happy to talk about some of those more granular. But a couple of observations. One is that often overlooked in this community and really an asset to the greater Houston region is Ellington Field, ellington Airport, the Spaceport and, if you haven't seen or heard about it, the work that's going on at the Spaceport. They have three new beautiful buildings. One is occupied by Intuitive Machines who just put the first commercial lander payload on the surface of the moon. One is occupied by a company called Axiom that's building the next generation of commercial spacesuits and the next generation space station, and Collins who do spacesuit design in our building and maintaining the current spacesuits. They've set up huge facilities down there and so new stuff coming on. But I'm equally excited about just across the runway is the 147th Reserve Group. So there's a reserve unit out there, a reserve base, and the defense opportunities are pretty exciting. So that's highlighted by the 147th. But almost every branch has a reserve unit out there, save the Space Force, and we're working on that. And so the opportunities with defense manufacturing to come out to do more work in Houston and some of their innovation units and, as mundane as it sounds, some of the procurement opportunities, because when it comes to contracting, having a group of folks here would be a great opportunity for Houston businesses to then pipeline the work that they're doing into the broader defense industry, which can be really exciting. One other thing I'll mention, chris, is if you just look at the path of predictable growth for Houston, right, it keeps going out and we see that on our freeways every day. So there are growing pains that come with that, but for our region it's that steady march down Interstate 45. And so while Clear Lake Lake City are starting to get to fully built out and we're looking at what is the next generation of building look like, what's redevelopment look like For communities Dickinson, hitchcock, santa Fe, to some extent Texas City. Although they've got quite an industrial complex too, there's still space, and so it really brings up the opportunity of we can handle big projects, and whether they're industrial or tourism, there's a lot of opportunity that comes with that. And so, as folks you know, as we get built out further and further, those cities that were, they've always been important cities for the regional ecosystem, but they become major players, and so it's exciting to be able to work with them on that stuff. Chris: Sounds like a lot of opportunity for real estate development. Both residential, retail, commercial, industrial kind of all sectors are going to be playing a big part in that ongoing development in your region. Brian: Exactly right, and part of the the fun part is, you know, every municipality has different targets of what they view their economic development to look like, and so we get to work with all those cities where some may be really focused on industrial, some may want to be bedroom communities and be focused on residential. Our task is to support those municipalities in this region and identifying good players to bring to the table. So who are people that we do want to partner with that can follow through on the projects that can complete them and make them successful? Chris: That's great. I think I saw recently in the news the state of Texas, I think it's had something along these lines, but it's like a fund for the space-related projects and I know I don't know the name and you'll help me with that, but I seem to recall the governor being in town and making some big announcement right after the first of the year. Tell us a little more about that. Brian: Recall the governor being in town and making some big announcement right after the first of the year. Tell us a little more about that, exactly, right? So last legislative session, primarily spearheaded by State Representative Greg Bonin, who's also a Princewood resident he's a neurosurgeon by day and State Representative Chairman of the House Appropriations Committee during the legislative session he had this kind of vision of how does the state become a major player in the aerospace community. That's been primarily a federal and private industry ecosystem and so under his vision and with support of the state legislature and certainly the governor, they put a bill that kind of outlined a direction for the state to engage and the resources behind it. It does a couple of things. One was it allocated about $200 million that would go to Texas A&M to build this A&M Space Institute, and they've actually located that property. It will be built on the edge of the campus of Johnson Space Center, so for those familiar with this area, right on Saturn Lane. $200 million building and, as A&M's laid it out, it will have a giant lunar rock yard and a giant Mars rock yard, with the idea that everybody who's going to be doing hardware testing to send vehicles to the moon or Mars is trying to figure out where they're going to do that testing. And it's very expensive to build, obviously. And so companies are making the decision whether they're going to build that themselves and own it or go lease it somewhere. And if they're going to lease it, where do you go to find a giant brockyard to simulate the surface of the moon? And well, the state of Texas answered that question. So what was so unique about that vision was that everybody who's in that ecosystem now wants to come through Houston Texas to do that work. And so with that comes the. You know they'll be have their lab space there, but they may need offices, they're going to be hiring people, and so you know it really is an exciting project. They had their groundbreaking right at the end of last year. I've seen surveyors out there and they think they're going to have it open in 2026. So an aggressive timeline to get that bill. The other part to that bill was they appropriated $150 million for a grant program to incentivize sort of space leadership projects in the state of Texas, and so they have to set up a whole, basically administration portion of this. So they selected nine individuals to serve on the Texas Space Commission who will review those proposals and evaluate them and make awards. Who will review those proposals and evaluate them and make awards, and then they'll also help advise the state on how they can keep their leadership position in the space industry. The first of those awards about 20 million were released a little over a week ago. A couple of them were studies for best use for really cool stuff hypersonic corridors where to be landing sites. And then another one that is to build assets and capabilities for the Space Force in El Paso to have more of a Space Force presence in the state of Texas, which is pretty exciting. So I'm optimistic about what's to come for them. Chris: Yeah, that sounds very exciting, especially the concept of the $200 million grant to A&M and what that will do to attract other businesses that might relocate somewhere else and bring them here, and then all the ancillary things around hiring and jobs et cetera. So that's very exciting news and I think it'll be just around the corner. Let's maybe talk a little bit about. You mentioned Maritime and the port, and most Houstonians People know the Houston port is a significant asset for our area. Anything going on there that's new and exciting, any kind of innovation that you see when you're working with those entities and, I guess, the port authority itself. Brian: Yeah, well, maybe the first thing when you talk about the port is you're absolutely right just how important they are to this well, to all of Houston, but to the country I mean. The scale of the port is hard to appreciate when you just look at the numbers. But the numbers are just staggering. The amount of capability that comes through there and the innovation really is on the logistics and management for how they move, whether it's container, you know, container containers, the container terminal organization and how that whole orchestra is operated, and the capabilities from there is that the crane's getting stuff unloaded, then onto the trucks or rail or whatever. The mechanism to get it out and then get it distributed to wherever it's going is pretty incredible, and so we're fortunate to have them. We just hosted the new port CEO, charlie Jenkins, who's a phenomenal leader, has a career in service of the port, is the right guy to lead that organization into their next chapter. But he made this comment kind of in passing that the port's operations are about a $3 billion a day operation, you know, and you just go like a day of economic impact that go into that. The scale is really something impressive and that's all the trickle out and secondary effects. But it's amazing, the big thing that's going on with them right now is Project 11. That's the deepening and widening of the channel that'll allow additional capacity to go in there, and it's really writing the story for what the next chapter of the port's future is and Houston as a trading hub is, and so it'll allow for larger ships to come through. The additional investments they're making will allow faster turn and movement of all the goods that are on there. So a lot of good stuff going on. I guess the last thing I'll say is anybody who's driven 225 sees all those trucks and I drive it pretty regularly and see that too and as much as nobody likes driving next to a giant 18 wheeler, every one of those trucks is jobs and prosperity for our region, and so the next time you're driving there and you see a hundred trucks going down 225, that's our economic prosperity moving around our region and, candidly, around the country. It's good stuff. Chris: It's a good point. Yeah, I mean it's. You wouldn't want the roads to be empty and no trucks moving. I mean that's not a good sign. So feel blessed that we have all that you know in our area and driving all kinds of different prospects and opportunities for people. So when you are working with, let's talk a little bit about these member organizations and all the different moving parts you know what are you doing? How do you, I guess, keep things organized and people kind of moving in the same direction? Just, I would think that in itself is a full-time job. Brian: Yeah, it's a lot, but you know it's good stuff. I guess I'll start with a phrase that I kind of live by, which is we have a lot of stuff going on and so we'll find something to get on about. Right, we can always find something to work together on, and so, if you kind of start with that attitude, there's a lot of common issues that really require a lot of work but you can get maybe not perfect alignment, but general directional alignment. And so you know, one of the big issues we're working with right now is insurance. Right, we're all dealing with it. I'm sure you've gotten your insurance bill, but whether it's home or your business insurance, all those things, and so you can find a lot of commonality and ideas about hey, how can we work with our state leaders, potentially our federal leaders, with the insurance companies themselves, to try to manage the cost of doing that and find ways could it be grouping, doing kind of what they do in medical where you can have these larger groups or other mechanisms to try and help mitigate some of the costs? For that I'm getting a little granular, but you can find these little pockets where you can go move the ball down the field and get general alignment and so we spend a lot of time doing that. But we are very fortunate that our membership and generally this is kind of a Texan spirit type thing is hey, how do we go get some stuff done? Right, we want to go work on some stuff we want to go work on together. Generally it's a rising tide mentality and I spent a good portion of my career in industry and there are times where we compete like crazy and that's fun and, you know, makes great products and great opportunities for our customers. There are a lot of times where we need the tide to rise and finding alignment about that we try to be an outlet for that and keep things running. Right Is that we have not a big staff but a staff that can help make sure that. You know, our members are doing a lot of this stuff as volunteers, right, but they're bringing ideas to the table. So how can we make sure that they're staying engaged, that we're checking in on them, that we're helping carry these things and that we're creating a forum to have the right discussions and bring leaders together so we can invite in elected officials over relevant stuff, the right industry players, and bring them to the table and figure out what we can do, and then I guess the last thing I'll say is that manifests itself. We have a very active state legislative agenda. That we're going to be spending a fair amount of time in Austin, federal priorities. That we work with our congressional delegation and then very on the ground working with our municipalities and all the companies that are out down here to make movement. Probably talk all day about little one-offs. Advert Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom. And thanks for listening to the show at boyermillercom. And thanks for listening to the show. Chris: Well it is. You know legislature is in session, so I know that creates a busy time for you. You talked a lot about some of the opportunities and I hope we can talk some more about that, but I do want to ask you at this point what are some of the headwinds that you see you know this region and specifically kind of where you are. You know that could be out there. That you see you know this region and specifically kind of where you are. You know that could be out there that you've got to try to deal with, to get ahead of or navigate through. Brian: I'll start with. It's a great time down here. Just the way that each one of those big five industry clusters is going about is that it's a. You know they're all doing well and have a lot of opportunity that's on the horizon or that they're in the midst of right now, but certainly you know, a few headwinds. One of the things that we're always worried about and we work actively is just natural disaster flood mitigation and storm surge and making sure that we're resilient and prepared for the future, and so the risk from some incident happening. I'm more excited to talk about, when it comes to that, all the things that we're doing to mitigate that. In terms of flood mitigation, the coastal barrier protection work that we've been spending a lot of time on. That's the Ike Dike. It has a lot of names, but most commonly known is that but a system to protect us from storm surge. So one is the risk of natural disaster I don't like it, but it's a real thing, right? The second is that we're in the you know how do we have responsible development? And so when you have a project that comes online, there are, you know, reasonable concerns from citizens saying, hey, is this the best thing to be doing with this piece of land, and so anytime you're talking about a development that's going to take a field and turn it into a thing, people get concerned about that and that's perfectly reasonable for them to be concerned and want to do that. And so part of what I spend time doing is addressing like, hey, here's why this is worthwhile, here's why this funds your local municipality and build more parks so we can have the resources and the tax base that justify expenditures that come elsewhere and make through that. But just the ability for the public's ability to impact development, as it happens, is important. But for them to do that knowing all the ground truth, knowing what the trades are and understanding that, so that if they are concerned about something that they come with that from an educated knowledge base and so that's out there. And then I certainly don't want to get political, but anytime there's an administration change, there's just priorities that get changed. And so we're still waiting to understand all of those. We're kind of watching how things are shaken out in Washington DC and we'll adapt and make sure that we're doing everything we can to put our region in a great posture with whatever those priorities are at the end of the day. Chris: So yeah, to that last point where you're kind of right in throws that change. Right now that's happening pretty fast, so you got to stay on your toes. Let me take you back to the Ike Dike, because that you know something to get after Harvey. Hurricane Harvey got talked about a lot. You don't hear much about it anymore. Any kind of updates for the listeners. That might be curious. Is it really going to happen and, if so, what's really going on down there to make sure it doesn't happen? Brian: And if so, what's really going on down there to make sure it doesn't happen? Yeah, so it's still moving along, you know, and with some enthusiasm. So a couple of big milestones. One is that in December of 22, it became a formal project of the US Army Corps of Engineers. It was authorized by Congress as a project, so that says, you know, they can now go focus on that. And so the next big question becomes how do we pay for it? To answer that, the state stepped up in a big way in the last legislative session and they had previously formed what's called the Gulf Coast Protection District. That is the local entity for that project. That will work with the US Army Corps of Engineers. So that group exists and has monthly meetings. They actually have an office in our suite. We lease an office to them them and they have their meeting in our conference room two out of every three months and then they do a rotation on that. Third, and they've been funded to the tune of about a half a billion dollars from the state of Texas. So they're ready to take significant action. We've been working with our federal partners about identifying where the big dollars come from for that project. It's going to be expensive and it's going to take a long time, but it will be likely done in phases and so that allows it. Where you don't need this one giant tranche of money all at once, you can do it sort of in a series and address the most important aspects of that, like the gates, some of the initial most highly populated areas, in phases. But we got to get federal appropriations for it. So in addition to the state entity being in our office, actually the US Army Corps of Engineers is on the fourth floor of this building and so all of the players for that project are in one building in our area right here, so that when what I'm hopeful for is if Corps moved in about six months ago, anytime an elected leader wants to come down and meet, they'll get every leader for that project in the same building and often meeting in our conference room or one of the core conference rooms. But a lot more can get done. There's sort of the opportunity for water cooler conversations between the state and the fed folks, and so I'm optimistic that the cadence just from that proximity will be helpful to that effort. Chris: Very good, that's good to hear. Let's change conversation a little bit. So, as I said, you're the president of BHEP. You mentioned your staff. Let's talk a little about leadership. How would you describe your leadership style and how do you think that's evolved kind of as you've been in this role? Brian: Yeah, well, I don't know that I can quantify terribly well, but I'm a kind of hey, all hands on deck and let's all just lean into wherever we're going. Right, and I kind of have that expectation of our team that we're have a clear set of priorities generally around the growth of this region and the projects that we're undertaking and that we're just leaning into them all the time and focusing. That I've been. You know I love getting down and into projects and so that's as I've been on this journey. That's been one of the big focus points to me is that you know you need a team to get this amount of stuff done and the size of these projects and the scope and so the ability to trust in the team and lean on them and let them go run with the ball is really important. I've been extremely fortunate that we have a great staff and we have a great membership base that we can lean on to help go bring those things to fruition. But it's a lot of fun coming to work. I think the team has a great time and enjoy the work that we do and you can see the difference that we make because there are buildings. We can point to that, wouldn't, you know, if not for the work of us and the leaders in this community wouldn't be there, and I'm looking forward to seeing that one on Saturn Lane with giant Texas A&M buildings sticking out of it coming through. Chris: It sounds like it's going to be impressive with the rockyards and all. But, you know, it made me think, though your team has a lot on its plate, I would think at times it may feel overwhelming. So, you know, what do you do to kind of help keep the motivation and keep the energy level up for a team that probably, at some points is, you know, starting to get to the end of the rope or run out of gas? Brian: Yeah, diversity of projects and lots of different stuff to work on. I'm guessing and actually I'd kind of turn that question on you, chris, because I can only imagine the type of stress that you guys live under, especially working big cases and big projects. There's one part that is, hey, we're just all in this together, right, and the esprit de corps that comes with. We're tackling big projects and that's just part of what comes with it. But there's another part where you just need to shift gears for a little bit and work on something different and give yourself a little recharge time. But how do you guys deal with it? I'm curious how? Chris: Boyer Miller, yeah that's a fair question to turn around on me. I would say it's similar. I think it's. You know to me that you can't underestimate the power of a team and if you have the right people on the team, there's some self-motivation just within that group, Right. And then I think it is the. We are fortunate to have very diverse type projects. We practice in all industries. So we may be doing a, a deal or a project, but it's in a different industry and there's different nuances that make it exciting. And at the end of the day I think it's the one point you highlighted on you can point to something and we're helping clients achieve their goals. So we can, you know, point to a deal that's been done or, you know, maybe it's a merger of two companies, or one that's grown and now has a new building and doing whatever. But you can point to those successes that you, where you've helped the client achieve, you know something really big for them and their business and their life. And so I think all of that continues the motivation. Yes, sometimes at the end of a big deal, you need just a little bit of a breather, but you just jump right back in and get going. So it makes it fun. Brian: Well, if you'll let me share. So you and I first met in person, had an opportunity to meet at one of your big forums, and that was a bunch of your customers and clients were there, and I love meeting new folks, as you probably saw, and I you know, walking around just saying, hey, I'm Brian, what do you do? And almost every one of them I would ask like, hey. So how do you know Chris, how do you know this group? You know, have you worked with them? And they all had a story. That was exactly that. You know, whatever thing it was that you helped them. We did XYZ project and it was awesome. We use them all the time for all these things. It was just very striking how passionate your customers, your clients, are with the help they've gotten from you guys, and so, anyway, that is extremely commendable and what I've seen from your team has just been amazing. Chris: Well, I appreciate the feedback. It's always good to get that, especially from different sources. So you know, like I think, we're always trying to create raving fans so that they'll keep coming back and tell their friends. So you get a unique seat and I think it's similar. You kind of analogize back to us. I think we get a unique seat to work with Texas entrepreneurs, and that's a pretty cool thing to do, in my view. What's, what would you or how would you describe the Texas entrepreneurial spirit if you could, based on your experience? Brian: Yeah well, I'm a native Texan. I have this hypothesis that part of the reason we're such a proud bunch is that when you go through I don't know if you grew up in Texas, chris but then also this sense of like we can do big things and big audacious things and we can make big asks and ask big questions and go get it done. And so we see a lot of that down here. And so you know, if you were sitting in I'll make this up Iowa and you said you know I want to have a space business and we want to go put hardware on the moon, and you know your neighbors would look at you and kind of scratch their head and in Texas they'd go oh yeah, that's intuitive machines and they're down the street, you should go. You know, go talk to them. They'd love to work with you. So that kind of spirit is really something special. When I was in industry I traveled all over the country working projects. There's something very special about this region, this community, this state, and that translates into why people want to come here. You know we keep Texas and Houston keep winning all these awards for business, new businesses coming here, people moving here, and that's not by accident, it's not by coincidence. It's because we have a great, great story to tell, whether that's workforce and the capabilities, the affordability of being here, the caliber of people you can work with and who your competitors are, and the level of intensity in the game that we play here is high and that creates the right ingredients for a really thriving community, for entrepreneurs, but also for industry any size. Chris: Right, very good. So what advice would you give to entrepreneurs out there that might be looking to start a business, let's say specifically, kind of within your region? If not, maybe beyond that in Houston? What's? Some of the advice you might give them if they wanted to get involved in some of the all the things you've been talking about. Brian: Yeah, dive in. It's a great community and a great ecosystem and there's a reason people are investing here and making a great run at it. We try to make that as easy as it can be. Now it is not easy. There's no illusions that starting a company you know scaling and growing a company all those things are very challenging. So the question I find myself asking I don't know that I'm in a position to give you know this immense amount of wisdom about these things, but what can we as a community and we as an organization be doing to help that entrepreneur? How do we help them build a relationship so that if they're having trouble with a permit, they know who to go ask, who to go talk to If they have a big idea, who might be good partners If they want to bounce something off, a retired executive who they might go talk to about that has the right skillset, so that we can create the conditions for them to be successful? And so that's really how we find ourselves interfacing that ecosystem is how do we put the right players together to go make things happen? Chris: Very good. So the other thing I'm curious to know is what do you see? You mentioned your five big industries. What have you observed of those industries working together to create innovative ideas to help each other? You got to move forward. Brian: Yeah, there's been a lot of. So workforce has been one of the biggest, especially over the last few years, where there's been this really high intensity competition amongst folks. And I wouldn't be surprised if you have been in some of that with, you know, recruiting and retaining high talent attorneys, right Is that? That's been, and so we've spent a lot of time and I've observed a lot of our members in this community go with that as a spirit of, hey, we're not really doing anybody any good If we're just poaching each other's people and you know, and creating pain points and friction between senior executives and those kinds of things. Let's go look at other communities and go figure out hey, what are the best universities and how do we get the professors that are training the students in it to send resumes to our area, right, and that we have a coalition of companies, not just one company has a relationship with one professor and that company benefits from that it's. How do we build that relationship as a community and say to them hey, we have a very strong demand signal, let's work together on things like that and so feeding that workforce pipeline so we're not divvying up the pie, we're growing it. And so, on the workforce side. I hate to be cliche because everybody's talking about AI, but we've had a couple of membership meetings about it. We've been working with partners about integration of it. We've adopted different technologies that have come out of it. But that stuff really, I mean it's the wave that we're living in right now, and so the integration of that into systems, both the how to do it and the mitigation of risk. I think I saw over the weekend that the new DeepSeek had a big not terribly surprised, but had a giant data leak and compromise, and so when you know when you're using that, I can only imagine, chris, I'd be curious how y'all are integrating it. But you know everything you put in there. You got to assume that at some point, somebody you don't want to have access will at least have the opportunity to have access to it, and so you have to be quite careful about how you integrate it. I, just as an aside, how are you guys using it much? Have you all banished it? What's the? Chris: Well, I'd say it's a little bit of both. I mean, we are definitely looking at and finding ways to integrate it. We've adopted a policy, but it starts with, as you mentioned, with us. It starts and stops with maintaining client confidentiality. So there's some systems out there through recognized kind of legal researchers. So Westlaw comes to mind, where they developed AI tool that is solely within their database. So it's secure, it's, it's all legal. You don't have to worry about we were still spot. You still have to check things right the human element of that. But if you're searching, for example, using the AI tool within Westlaw, you don't have to worry about the fake cases you've seen in the news. But our attorneys, you know, if you're going to use it, it has to be approved through the firm which are only a handful. You can't use anything outside and everything has to be double checked by a person to make sure for accuracy, etc. But so it is. I mean, the confidentiality side is a real concern, not just for law firms, for everybody, any company using it, and unfortunately that's just gonna be more and more what we see right. The more that we're moving everything to cloud, you're going to have people coming after it to try to. You know, on the bad side of that and certain countries it's not illegal to be a hacker. So it's just, you know, that's the world we live in now. Yeah Well, you know, brian, this has been a very interesting conversation and the you know, the last time we spoke I came away with the same feeling, and that is, we talked a lot about a lot of opportunity going on in the three to six o'clock region of greater Houston and we didn't even scratch the surface, I'm sure. But my takeaways have been it doesn't matter what industry again, I said earlier, you always kind of automatically think of space and NASA, but it's every type of business you could think of. An industry you could think of Sounds like you've got ample opportunity for businesses and entrepreneurs to start, grow, expand and be there and thrive. Brian: Well, perfectly said, and I think we get a recording. I may use that in some of our promotional material. Chris, that's exactly right. Great time, great place to be and welcome folks to reach out to us to help however we can if they're interested in looking at opportunities down here for that Before I lose you. Chris, one of the favorite questions that you had sent over that I wanted to ask you that you didn't get a chance to ask is what your favorite recreation vacation spot in the state of Texas is. Chris: Well, I'll answer that. I was about to ask you that. I would say if it's kind of a vacation spot in Texas, it would probably be anywhere along the Texas coast to relax a little bit and get some fishing in. Brian: Perfect. Chris: How about you? Brian: We are huge campers, like we love going camping. My kids are eight and 11 and we have state parks pass, and so any day I'm in a state park is a good day for me. But Inks Lake is one of my favorites and McKinney Falls between the two of those. Those are my top two right now, but we've probably been to Keene and we're just checking off the box to hit them all, and maybe we'll upgrade to National Parks as we get a little bit older. But I love our visiting our state park system. They're just absolutely wonderful. Chris: That's great. Okay, last question You're native Texan, so do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Brian: Oh, I feel like that question is going to get me in trouble, but if you made me choose, I'd pick barbecue. I'll eat it all day, every day, as it shows how about you, how about you? Chris: I think it's a tough one, so I've had some guests. You know, it depends on the day. I probably lean Tex-Mex more than barbecue. But I love the restaurants now that are combining the two, so brisket tacos or brisket nachos or something like that. It's a great combination. Brian: Yeah, there should be an answer all of the above there. Chris: So we're getting close to the rodeo time in Houston, so I have to go with barbecue for now and then back to Tex-Mex, I guess. Brian: Well, I look forward to seeing you at the kickoff event, where we get to go sample a little everything. Deal, that sounds good. Well, I look forward to seeing you at the kickoff event, where we get to go sample a little everything. Chris: Deal. That sounds good. Brian, thanks again for taking the time. Really appreciate your friendship and definitely appreciate what you and your team are doing for all the things business down in the Bay Area. Brian: Well, right back at you, Chris. Thanks for your leadership and all the great work you're doing with your team. Appreciate the opportunity to visit with you today. Thank you. Special Guest: Brian Freedman.